Why Being Alone Might Be Better Than You Think | The Happiness Lab Podcast

If you're a fan of The Happiness Lab, If you're a fan of The Happiness Lab, you've surely heard about the powerful you've surely heard about the powerful you've surely heard about the powerful benefits of social connection, as well benefits of social connection, as well benefits of social connection, as well as the dangers of its opposite, as the dangers of its opposite, as the dangers of its opposite, loneliness. loneliness. loneliness. >> Loneliness is strongly associated >> Loneliness is strongly associated >> Loneliness is strongly associated [music] [music] [music] with an increased risk of heart disease with an increased risk of heart disease with an increased risk of heart disease and dementia, depression and anxiety. and dementia, depression and anxiety. and dementia, depression and anxiety. >> This is Dr. Vivek Murthy. Back in 2023, >> This is Dr. Vivek Murthy. Back in 2023, >> This is Dr. Vivek Murthy. Back in 2023, when he was Surgeon General, he famously when he was Surgeon General, he famously when he was Surgeon General, he famously issued a landmark public advisory issued a landmark public advisory issued a landmark public advisory [music] to sound the alarm about the [music] to sound the alarm about the [music] to sound the alarm about the negative effects of loneliness. negative effects of loneliness. negative effects of loneliness. Vivek joined us on the show a few years Vivek joined us on the show a few years Vivek joined us on the show a few years ago for an episode about the dangers of ago for an episode about the dangers of ago for an episode about the dangers of isolation. During that conversation, he isolation. During that conversation, he isolation. During that conversation, he referred to our country's lack of social referred to our country's lack of social referred to our country's lack of social connection as an epidemic, one that he connection as an epidemic, one that he connection as an epidemic, one that he argued [music] was deadly. argued [music] was deadly. argued [music] was deadly. >> And if you look at the degree of life >> And if you look at the degree of life >> And if you look at the degree of life shortening, it appeared similar to the shortening, it appeared similar to the shortening, it appeared similar to the mortality impact of smoking 15 [music] mortality impact of smoking 15 [music] mortality impact of smoking 15 [music] cigarettes a day, and greater than the cigarettes a day, and greater than the cigarettes a day, and greater than the mortality impact of obesity. mortality impact of obesity. mortality impact of obesity. >> Vivek also told us that the health >> Vivek also told us that the health >> Vivek also told us that the health problems associated with loneliness were problems associated with loneliness were problems associated with loneliness were growing. growing. growing. >> [music] >> [music] >> [music] >> One recent report by the World Health >> One recent report by the World Health >> One recent report by the World Health Organization found that one in six Organization found that one in six Organization found that one in six people worldwide is affected by people worldwide is affected by people worldwide is affected by loneliness. [music] loneliness. [music] loneliness. [music] And Vivek found that rates of loneliness And Vivek found that rates of loneliness And Vivek found that rates of loneliness in our own country can be as high as in our own country can be as high as in our own country can be as high as 22%. 22%. 22%. >> And just to put this in context, 22% of >> And just to put this in context, 22% of >> And just to put this in context, 22% of adults [music] in the United States is adults [music] in the United States is adults [music] in the United States is more than the percentage of adults who more than the percentage of adults who more than the percentage of adults who smoke cigarettes. It's more than smoke cigarettes. It's more than smoke cigarettes. It's more than percentage of adults who have diabetes. percentage of adults who have diabetes. percentage of adults who have diabetes. So, this is exceedingly [music] So, this is exceedingly [music] So, this is exceedingly [music] common. common. common. >> It's no surprise then that news reports >> It's no surprise then that news reports >> It's no surprise then that news reports these days are brimming with scary these days are brimming with scary these days are brimming with scary stories about the terrifying costs stories about the terrifying costs stories about the terrifying costs [music] of the loneliness crisis. [music] of the loneliness crisis. [music] of the loneliness crisis. I mean, the World Health Organization I mean, the World Health Organization I mean, the World Health Organization has argued that loneliness [music] is has argued that loneliness [music] is has argued that loneliness [music] is linked to an estimated 100 deaths every linked to an estimated 100 deaths every linked to an estimated 100 deaths every hour. hour. hour. Scary stuff, right? Well, that's why Scary stuff, right? Well, that's why Scary stuff, right? Well, that's why this week's happiness hot take is bound this week's happiness hot take is bound this week's happiness hot take is bound to be a very, very fiery [music] one. to be a very, very fiery [music] one. to be a very, very fiery [music] one. Because today's happiness hot take is Because today's happiness hot take is Because today's happiness hot take is this. Lately, I've been starting to this. Lately, I've been starting to this. Lately, I've been starting to think that all this talk about the think that all this talk about the think that all this talk about the dangers of loneliness might be a little dangers of loneliness might be a little dangers of loneliness might be a little overblown, or at the very least overblown, or at the very least overblown, or at the very least counterproductive in ways that our lying counterproductive in ways that our lying counterproductive in ways that our lying minds don't realize. Today's happiness minds don't realize. Today's happiness minds don't realize. Today's happiness hot take is that we desperately need to hot take is that we desperately need to hot take is that we desperately need to change how we think about and how we change how we think about and how we change how we think about and how we talk about loneliness. Because the talk about loneliness. Because the talk about loneliness. Because the science shows that there are lots of science shows that there are lots of science shows that there are lots of unexpected benefits that can come from a unexpected benefits that can come from a unexpected benefits that can come from a little more alone time. little more alone time. little more alone time. >> [music] >> Our minds are constantly telling us what >> Our minds are constantly telling us what to do to be happy. But what if our minds to do to be happy. But what if our minds to do to be happy. But what if our minds are wrong? What if our minds are lying are wrong? What if our minds are lying are wrong? What if our minds are lying to us, leading us away from what will to us, leading us away from what will to us, leading us away from what will really make us happy? really make us happy? really make us happy? The good news is that understanding the The good news is that understanding the The good news is that understanding the science of the mind can point us all science of the mind can point us all science of the mind can point us all back in the right direction. You're back in the right direction. You're back in the right direction. You're listening to The Happiness Lab [music] listening to The Happiness Lab [music] listening to The Happiness Lab [music] with Dr. Laurie Santos. When you think about loneliness, what When you think about loneliness, what comes to mind? comes to mind? comes to mind? >> I was studying at the University of >> I was studying at the University of >> I was studying at the University of York, and there were lots of Canadian York, and there were lots of Canadian York, and there were lots of Canadian geese geese geese outside my bedroom window, and they did outside my bedroom window, and they did outside my bedroom window, and they did that honking noise, which still fills me that honking noise, which still fills me that honking noise, which still fills me with dread. with dread. with dread. >> For Dr. Fay Bound Alberti, a historian >> For Dr. Fay Bound Alberti, a historian >> For Dr. Fay Bound Alberti, a historian at King's College in London, loneliness at King's College in London, loneliness at King's College in London, loneliness conjures up the sounds she remembers conjures up the sounds she remembers conjures up the sounds she remembers hearing when going through a rough hearing when going through a rough hearing when going through a rough breakup as a college student. breakup as a college student. breakup as a college student. >> And it made me feel a very kind of >> And it made me feel a very kind of >> And it made me feel a very kind of profound and physical sense of profound and physical sense of profound and physical sense of loneliness that linked to other times loneliness that linked to other times loneliness that linked to other times I've heard those geese, and the sort of I've heard those geese, and the sort of I've heard those geese, and the sort of the isolation attached to that. the isolation attached to that. the isolation attached to that. >> Fay is the author of A Biography of >> Fay is the author of A Biography of >> Fay is the author of A Biography of Loneliness, The History of an Emotion. Loneliness, The History of an Emotion. Loneliness, The History of an Emotion. >> I'm also a historian of medicine, >> I'm also a historian of medicine, >> I'm also a historian of medicine, emotion, and the body, and I write about emotion, and the body, and I write about emotion, and the body, and I write about feeling between the classical period and feeling between the classical period and feeling between the classical period and the present day. the present day. the present day. >> I came across Fay's work one day when I >> I came across Fay's work one day when I >> I came across Fay's work one day when I was scrolling through social media and was scrolling through social media and was scrolling through social media and saw her tweet asking what loneliness saw her tweet asking what loneliness saw her tweet asking what loneliness sounds like. sounds like. sounds like. >> And the responses were really >> And the responses were really >> And the responses were really interesting. Some people said when they interesting. Some people said when they interesting. Some people said when they were alone in their flat at night and were alone in their flat at night and were alone in their flat at night and they hear that click click noise when they hear that click click noise when they hear that click click noise when the radiators start to turn themselves the radiators start to turn themselves the radiators start to turn themselves off. off. off. Some people talked about hearing a Some people talked about hearing a Some people talked about hearing a whistling down the chimney when they whistling down the chimney when they whistling down the chimney when they were alone in their flat. Some people were alone in their flat. Some people were alone in their flat. Some people found the sort of morning bird call, the found the sort of morning bird call, the found the sort of morning bird call, the twittering of the birds in the morning, twittering of the birds in the morning, twittering of the birds in the morning, isolating because it reminded them that isolating because it reminded them that isolating because it reminded them that yet in the day they were waking up yet in the day they were waking up yet in the day they were waking up alone. alone. alone. Other people said, "Oh, when they're Other people said, "Oh, when they're Other people said, "Oh, when they're walking past a pub or a bar and and you walking past a pub or a bar and and you walking past a pub or a bar and and you can hear people chatting inside." And can hear people chatting inside." And can hear people chatting inside." And often you get that blast of warmth, often you get that blast of warmth, often you get that blast of warmth, don't you, at the same time as you walk don't you, at the same time as you walk don't you, at the same time as you walk past. And that's another kind of past. And that's another kind of past. And that's another kind of sensorial feeling. And it all of which sensorial feeling. And it all of which sensorial feeling. And it all of which is like, "Oh, I don't have that." And so is like, "Oh, I don't have that." And so is like, "Oh, I don't have that." And so those are the kinds of things it was those are the kinds of things it was those are the kinds of things it was wanting to open up a conversation about wanting to open up a conversation about wanting to open up a conversation about physical experiences of loneliness. physical experiences of loneliness. physical experiences of loneliness. >> I love you sharing the pub example >> I love you sharing the pub example >> I love you sharing the pub example because it feels so visceral to me. I because it feels so visceral to me. I because it feels so visceral to me. I spent a year in the UK in grad school in spent a year in the UK in grad school in spent a year in the UK in grad school in Bristol when I didn't really know Bristol when I didn't really know Bristol when I didn't really know anybody and I had that exact experience anybody and I had that exact experience anybody and I had that exact experience like walk by the pubs and you hear the like walk by the pubs and you hear the like walk by the pubs and you hear the sort of din of chatter and you just feel sort of din of chatter and you just feel sort of din of chatter and you just feel this deep sense of not having social this deep sense of not having social this deep sense of not having social connection yourself. It's so sad. connection yourself. It's so sad. connection yourself. It's so sad. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Not just the sound, but also for me I >> Not just the sound, but also for me I >> Not just the sound, but also for me I have the smell. Like when you're walking have the smell. Like when you're walking have the smell. Like when you're walking by and you get this blast of sort of old by and you get this blast of sort of old by and you get this blast of sort of old beer smell that like you could be in beer smell that like you could be in beer smell that like you could be in there with those people, but you're not there with those people, but you're not there with those people, but you're not and you just kind of feel so by and you just kind of feel so by and you just kind of feel so by yourself. yourself. yourself. >> It's really interesting, isn't it? I >> It's really interesting, isn't it? I >> It's really interesting, isn't it? I think there's nothing like other think there's nothing like other think there's nothing like other people's relaxed sociability to make you people's relaxed sociability to make you people's relaxed sociability to make you think, "Ooh, I miss that." Loneliness is think, "Ooh, I miss that." Loneliness is think, "Ooh, I miss that." Loneliness is very much part of the body as well as very much part of the body as well as very much part of the body as well as the mind. And I think that about all our the mind. And I think that about all our the mind. And I think that about all our emotions. And one of the things that I emotions. And one of the things that I emotions. And one of the things that I know as a historian of emotion is that know as a historian of emotion is that know as a historian of emotion is that with the rise of scientific medicine we with the rise of scientific medicine we with the rise of scientific medicine we separated out mind and body. It was also separated out mind and body. It was also separated out mind and body. It was also seen as a physical thing before the rise seen as a physical thing before the rise seen as a physical thing before the rise of scientific medicine. We made the body of scientific medicine. We made the body of scientific medicine. We made the body a machine that produces and the mind a machine that produces and the mind a machine that produces and the mind this kind of complex organ which we this kind of complex organ which we this kind of complex organ which we reduced to brain. And we tend to think reduced to brain. And we tend to think reduced to brain. And we tend to think of emotions like loneliness as being of emotions like loneliness as being of emotions like loneliness as being cognitive processes, but they're very cognitive processes, but they're very cognitive processes, but they're very felt. We feel them in the body both in felt. We feel them in the body both in felt. We feel them in the body both in terms of our emotional reactions, but terms of our emotional reactions, but terms of our emotional reactions, but also in terms of our memories, the ways also in terms of our memories, the ways also in terms of our memories, the ways in which memories of experience get in which memories of experience get in which memories of experience get locked into the body. locked into the body. locked into the body. >> [music] >> [music] >> [music] >> In order to understand what we might be >> In order to understand what we might be >> In order to understand what we might be getting wrong about the loneliness getting wrong about the loneliness getting wrong about the loneliness crisis, I wanted to better understand crisis, I wanted to better understand crisis, I wanted to better understand where this feeling comes from in the where this feeling comes from in the where this feeling comes from in the first place. first place. first place. >> [music] >> [music] >> [music] >> And that's why I was so excited to have >> And that's why I was so excited to have >> And that's why I was so excited to have Fay join me for this episode. Because Fay join me for this episode. Because Fay join me for this episode. Because Fay's take on the historical origins of Fay's take on the historical origins of Fay's take on the historical origins of loneliness differs from that of a lot of loneliness differs from that of a lot of loneliness differs from that of a lot of the academics I hang out with. the academics I hang out with. the academics I hang out with. You see, [music] my colleagues have long You see, [music] my colleagues have long You see, [music] my colleagues have long assumed that loneliness is a product of assumed that loneliness is a product of assumed that loneliness is a product of biology, an emotion that has been shaped biology, an emotion that has been shaped biology, an emotion that has been shaped over generations [music] over generations [music] over generations [music] by natural selection. by natural selection. by natural selection. Humans are, of course, social primates. Humans are, of course, social primates. Humans are, of course, social primates. We rely on one another for survival. We rely on one another for survival. We rely on one another for survival. Loneliness can [music] therefore be Loneliness can [music] therefore be Loneliness can [music] therefore be thought of as an evolutionary signal, thought of as an evolutionary signal, thought of as an evolutionary signal, one that's built to help us avoid the one that's built to help us avoid the one that's built to help us avoid the dangers of isolation. dangers of isolation. dangers of isolation. >> [music] >> [music] >> [music] >> Loneliness is there to alert us that we >> Loneliness is there to alert us that we >> Loneliness is there to alert us that we need to return to the safety of the need to return to the safety of the need to return to the safety of the tribe. tribe. tribe. Under this view, one would predict that Under this view, one would predict that Under this view, one would predict that our species has been experiencing this our species has been experiencing this our species has been experiencing this yucky feeling [music] for a long time. yucky feeling [music] for a long time. yucky feeling [music] for a long time. But Fay argues that that's not the case. But Fay argues that that's not the case. But Fay argues that that's not the case. Her historical analysis has found that Her historical analysis has found that Her historical analysis has found that loneliness, at [music] least as we think loneliness, at [music] least as we think loneliness, at [music] least as we think of it today, didn't really exist before of it today, didn't really exist before of it today, didn't really exist before the 19th century. the 19th century. the 19th century. >> I think often people think about the >> I think often people think about the >> I think often people think about the history of emotions as being people felt history of emotions as being people felt history of emotions as being people felt the same, just the landscapes were the same, just the landscapes were the same, just the landscapes were different, but the emotions themselves different, but the emotions themselves different, but the emotions themselves were changed by the landscapes. were changed by the landscapes. were changed by the landscapes. >> And Fay says that being lonely before >> And Fay says that being lonely before >> And Fay says that being lonely before the Industrial Revolution meant the Industrial Revolution meant the Industrial Revolution meant something entirely different than it something entirely different than it something entirely different than it does today. does today. does today. >> Loneliness was used interchangeably with >> Loneliness was used interchangeably with >> Loneliness was used interchangeably with waneliness, and it just meant being waneliness, and it just meant being waneliness, and it just meant being alone. It just meant being solitude. alone. It just meant being solitude. alone. It just meant being solitude. There wasn't anything like the emotional There wasn't anything like the emotional There wasn't anything like the emotional weight that it has today. So, when weight that it has today. So, when weight that it has today. So, when Wordsworth talked about wandering lonely Wordsworth talked about wandering lonely Wordsworth talked about wandering lonely as a cloud, he just meant he was alone. as a cloud, he just meant he was alone. as a cloud, he just meant he was alone. At that point, you could be wanly or you At that point, you could be wanly or you At that point, you could be wanly or you could be lonely, but you would not have could be lonely, but you would not have could be lonely, but you would not have that sort of sense of emotional loss and that sort of sense of emotional loss and that sort of sense of emotional loss and lack that we have today. lack that we have today. lack that we have today. >> I find this so striking. That ache that >> I find this so striking. That ache that >> I find this so striking. That ache that I got while walking by a crowded pub I got while walking by a crowded pub I got while walking by a crowded pub back in grad school, or that sense of back in grad school, or that sense of back in grad school, or that sense of invisibility that newly rejected Fay invisibility that newly rejected Fay invisibility that newly rejected Fay felt listening to those geese. felt listening to those geese. felt listening to those geese. Fay says that people didn't really Fay says that people didn't really Fay says that people didn't really experience that feeling for most of experience that feeling for most of experience that feeling for most of human history. human history. human history. >> If you imagine in the early modern >> If you imagine in the early modern >> If you imagine in the early modern period when God is always there, you're period when God is always there, you're period when God is always there, you're never actually alone. If we are aware of never actually alone. If we are aware of never actually alone. If we are aware of something bigger than ourselves, we are something bigger than ourselves, we are something bigger than ourselves, we are less likely to feel lonely. And so, it's less likely to feel lonely. And so, it's less likely to feel lonely. And so, it's only when you have the decline of only when you have the decline of only when you have the decline of religion as the only explanation for why religion as the only explanation for why religion as the only explanation for why we're in the world, and the rise of we're in the world, and the rise of we're in the world, and the rise of urbanization, and economic urbanization, and economic urbanization, and economic individualism. All of these kind of individualism. All of these kind of individualism. All of these kind of transformations make us into smaller transformations make us into smaller transformations make us into smaller parts, and they don't give us that kind parts, and they don't give us that kind parts, and they don't give us that kind of sense of the collective or collective of sense of the collective or collective of sense of the collective or collective identity. So, round about 1800, you do identity. So, round about 1800, you do identity. So, round about 1800, you do get more and more people talking about get more and more people talking about get more and more people talking about loneliness. People aren't any longer loneliness. People aren't any longer loneliness. People aren't any longer feeling that they are enough on feeling that they are enough on feeling that they are enough on themselves, with themselves. We've got themselves, with themselves. We've got themselves, with themselves. We've got the rise of the individual, the decline the rise of the individual, the decline the rise of the individual, the decline of the collective. So, those are the of the collective. So, those are the of the collective. So, those are the broad patterns, I think, that affect our broad patterns, I think, that affect our broad patterns, I think, that affect our emotional state. emotional state. emotional state. >> They point to two famous stories of >> They point to two famous stories of >> They point to two famous stories of isolation that nicely illustrate the isolation that nicely illustrate the isolation that nicely illustrate the different emotional reactions that different emotional reactions that different emotional reactions that people had to solitude before and after people had to solitude before and after people had to solitude before and after this rise of the individual. this rise of the individual. this rise of the individual. Story number one, the old-school version Story number one, the old-school version Story number one, the old-school version of solitude, is from Robinson Crusoe, of solitude, is from Robinson Crusoe, of solitude, is from Robinson Crusoe, the famous novel by Daniel Defoe, the famous novel by Daniel Defoe, the famous novel by Daniel Defoe, published in 1719, in which the main published in 1719, in which the main published in 1719, in which the main character is shipwrecked on a remote character is shipwrecked on a remote character is shipwrecked on a remote island for 28 years. island for 28 years. island for 28 years. Story number two, the more modern notion Story number two, the more modern notion Story number two, the more modern notion of solitude, is from Cast Away, the of solitude, is from Cast Away, the of solitude, is from Cast Away, the award-winning movie released back in award-winning movie released back in award-winning movie released back in 2000, in which the actor Tom Hanks 2000, in which the actor Tom Hanks 2000, in which the actor Tom Hanks survives a plane crash and spends four survives a plane crash and spends four survives a plane crash and spends four years struggling to survive on a years struggling to survive on a years struggling to survive on a deserted island. deserted island. deserted island. >> So, Robinson Crusoe, when he's kind of >> So, Robinson Crusoe, when he's kind of >> So, Robinson Crusoe, when he's kind of cast adrift, it follows the convention cast adrift, it follows the convention cast adrift, it follows the convention of being this sort of testing, this of being this sort of testing, this of being this sort of testing, this spiritual journey, this notion of being spiritual journey, this notion of being spiritual journey, this notion of being in isolation or solitude as a way of in isolation or solitude as a way of in isolation or solitude as a way of understanding oneself better. And if you understanding oneself better. And if you understanding oneself better. And if you compare that to Cast Away, it's very compare that to Cast Away, it's very compare that to Cast Away, it's very much about the loss of other people and much about the loss of other people and much about the loss of other people and how do we cope? And for me, that's such how do we cope? And for me, that's such how do we cope? And for me, that's such a sort of fantastic transition in what's a sort of fantastic transition in what's a sort of fantastic transition in what's happened across the period that I'm happened across the period that I'm happened across the period that I'm talking about. We are not alone with God talking about. We are not alone with God talking about. We are not alone with God anymore. We are alone with ourselves, anymore. We are alone with ourselves, anymore. We are alone with ourselves, which for many people is quite which for many people is quite which for many people is quite terrifying, because what do we do when terrifying, because what do we do when terrifying, because what do we do when we look inward? we look inward? we look inward? >> Psychologists have been looking at what >> Psychologists have been looking at what >> Psychologists have been looking at what happens when modern people get stuck happens when modern people get stuck happens when modern people get stuck alone and have to look inwards, and it's alone and have to look inwards, and it's alone and have to look inwards, and it's not pretty. Take one famous study by not pretty. Take one famous study by not pretty. Take one famous study by psychologists Matt Killingsworth and psychologists Matt Killingsworth and psychologists Matt Killingsworth and Timothy Wilson. They brought subjects Timothy Wilson. They brought subjects Timothy Wilson. They brought subjects into the lab and asked them to sit alone into the lab and asked them to sit alone into the lab and asked them to sit alone in a room without distractions for 15 in a room without distractions for 15 in a room without distractions for 15 minutes. No cell phones or internet minutes. No cell phones or internet minutes. No cell phones or internet access, not even a pen or paper. The one access, not even a pen or paper. The one access, not even a pen or paper. The one thing subjects did have access to was a thing subjects did have access to was a thing subjects did have access to was a machine that gave out a mild electric machine that gave out a mild electric machine that gave out a mild electric shock. shock. shock. Participants were not told to shock Participants were not told to shock Participants were not told to shock themselves, but when faced with the themselves, but when faced with the themselves, but when faced with the boredom of actually sitting alone with boredom of actually sitting alone with boredom of actually sitting alone with their own thoughts for 15 minutes, 25% their own thoughts for 15 minutes, 25% their own thoughts for 15 minutes, 25% of women and 67% of men voluntarily of women and 67% of men voluntarily of women and 67% of men voluntarily chose to shock themselves. chose to shock themselves. chose to shock themselves. They thinks that part of our aversion to They thinks that part of our aversion to They thinks that part of our aversion to sitting alone with our thoughts in the sitting alone with our thoughts in the sitting alone with our thoughts in the modern day comes from how we talk about modern day comes from how we talk about modern day comes from how we talk about what it means to be alone. what it means to be alone. what it means to be alone. >> We have this language of loneliness, >> We have this language of loneliness, >> We have this language of loneliness, which is global now. We talk about it as which is global now. We talk about it as which is global now. We talk about it as an epidemic. So, we have produced this an epidemic. So, we have produced this an epidemic. So, we have produced this medicalized problematic notion of medicalized problematic notion of medicalized problematic notion of loneliness as something bad. And what loneliness as something bad. And what loneliness as something bad. And what happens is that people think, "Oh, that happens is that people think, "Oh, that happens is that people think, "Oh, that must be what I'm feeling." And I think must be what I'm feeling." And I think must be what I'm feeling." And I think that that also increases loneliness. If that that also increases loneliness. If that that also increases loneliness. If we say that loneliness is one thing we say that loneliness is one thing we say that loneliness is one thing that's a negative thing, we medicalize that's a negative thing, we medicalize that's a negative thing, we medicalize it, so it's like a disease that comes it, so it's like a disease that comes it, so it's like a disease that comes from outside, not a product of how we from outside, not a product of how we from outside, not a product of how we live, then what we're doing is we're live, then what we're doing is we're live, then what we're doing is we're massively over simplifying it. massively over simplifying it. massively over simplifying it. >> This is Fe big concern with the idea of >> This is Fe big concern with the idea of >> This is Fe big concern with the idea of a quote loneliness epidemic. It makes a quote loneliness epidemic. It makes a quote loneliness epidemic. It makes loneliness sound like one single loneliness sound like one single loneliness sound like one single condition, something you either have or condition, something you either have or condition, something you either have or don't have. don't have. don't have. When in reality, Fe argues, loneliness When in reality, Fe argues, loneliness When in reality, Fe argues, loneliness is much more complicated than that. is much more complicated than that. is much more complicated than that. >> I talk about loneliness really as a >> I talk about loneliness really as a >> I talk about loneliness really as a cluster of different emotions because cluster of different emotions because cluster of different emotions because it's not a single emotion. It's a it's not a single emotion. It's a it's not a single emotion. It's a peculiar state that might be composed of peculiar state that might be composed of peculiar state that might be composed of grief and sadness. It might be composed grief and sadness. It might be composed grief and sadness. It might be composed of resentment or anger. And so, the of resentment or anger. And so, the of resentment or anger. And so, the particular emotions that make up particular emotions that make up particular emotions that make up loneliness depend on where we are in our loneliness depend on where we are in our loneliness depend on where we are in our lives. There are pinch points where we lives. There are pinch points where we lives. There are pinch points where we might, for instance, get married, get might, for instance, get married, get might, for instance, get married, get widowed, get divorced, or even be a widowed, get divorced, or even be a widowed, get divorced, or even be a teenager going off to college. And we teenager going off to college. And we teenager going off to college. And we feel some sort of transitory sense of feel some sort of transitory sense of feel some sort of transitory sense of loneliness, which is in relation to our loneliness, which is in relation to our loneliness, which is in relation to our circumstance, and actually a very circumstance, and actually a very circumstance, and actually a very positive thing because it means we're positive thing because it means we're positive thing because it means we're ready for the next stage, and what do we ready for the next stage, and what do we ready for the next stage, and what do we want? And that's different to the kind want? And that's different to the kind want? And that's different to the kind of chronic loneliness that can settle in of chronic loneliness that can settle in of chronic loneliness that can settle in when people aren't able to connect. And when people aren't able to connect. And when people aren't able to connect. And maybe they're disadvantaged by health, maybe they're disadvantaged by health, maybe they're disadvantaged by health, or economics, or geography. Those sort or economics, or geography. Those sort or economics, or geography. Those sort of nuances, I think, are very, very of nuances, I think, are very, very of nuances, I think, are very, very important. Otherwise, we start thinking important. Otherwise, we start thinking important. Otherwise, we start thinking that a widow that a widow that a widow who's just lost her husband of 30 years who's just lost her husband of 30 years who's just lost her husband of 30 years is going to be feeling exactly the same is going to be feeling exactly the same is going to be feeling exactly the same kind of loneliness as a sort of teenage kind of loneliness as a sort of teenage kind of loneliness as a sort of teenage boy who is online all the time, but has boy who is online all the time, but has boy who is online all the time, but has no friends. I mean, it just seems to me no friends. I mean, it just seems to me no friends. I mean, it just seems to me obvious that these are not the same obvious that these are not the same obvious that these are not the same emotions. So, we can't have a emotions. So, we can't have a emotions. So, we can't have a one-size-fits-all approach. I think that one-size-fits-all approach. I think that one-size-fits-all approach. I think that a lot of the emotional experiences we a lot of the emotional experiences we a lot of the emotional experiences we have are opportunities for growth and have are opportunities for growth and have are opportunities for growth and development. If your psyche and body is development. If your psyche and body is development. If your psyche and body is saying something is missing, it's an saying something is missing, it's an saying something is missing, it's an opportunity. If we treat it all as a bad opportunity. If we treat it all as a bad opportunity. If we treat it all as a bad thing, what we're doing is we're closing thing, what we're doing is we're closing thing, what we're doing is we're closing down the opportunity for growth. We're down the opportunity for growth. We're down the opportunity for growth. We're closing down the opportunity for closing down the opportunity for closing down the opportunity for connection. connection. connection. And we're really taking away what are And we're really taking away what are And we're really taking away what are the different complex kinds of emotions the different complex kinds of emotions the different complex kinds of emotions that are going towards this state. We that are going towards this state. We that are going towards this state. We need to really drill down into that, need to really drill down into that, need to really drill down into that, because it's so subjective. So, our because it's so subjective. So, our because it's so subjective. So, our interventions need to be tailored. interventions need to be tailored. interventions need to be tailored. >> When we get back from the break, we'll >> When we get back from the break, we'll >> When we get back from the break, we'll meet a psychologist who's trying to meet a psychologist who's trying to meet a psychologist who's trying to follow Fay's advice. Someone who's follow Fay's advice. Someone who's follow Fay's advice. Someone who's trying to drill down into the language trying to drill down into the language trying to drill down into the language we use to talk about loneliness, so that we use to talk about loneliness, so that we use to talk about loneliness, so that we can fight this feeling more we can fight this feeling more we can fight this feeling more effectively. She'll break down what we effectively. She'll break down what we effectively. She'll break down what we get wrong about loneliness, and what we get wrong about loneliness, and what we get wrong about loneliness, and what we can do better, when The Happiness Lab can do better, when The Happiness Lab can do better, when The Happiness Lab returns in a moment. >> When [music] I first started studying >> When [music] I first started studying this topic, I actually really struggled this topic, I actually really struggled this topic, I actually really struggled to be alone. [music] I had this to be alone. [music] I had this to be alone. [music] I had this perception that being alone is perception that being alone is perception that being alone is loneliness. You know, I had never loneliness. You know, I had never loneliness. You know, I had never considered that these two are separate considered that these two are separate considered that these two are separate things. One moment that really comes to things. One moment that really comes to things. One moment that really comes to mind is in college, I had sort of a mind is in college, I had sort of a mind is in college, I had sort of a lunch plan that fell through, and I lunch plan that fell through, and I lunch plan that fell through, and I thought, "Okay, well, I guess I'll just thought, "Okay, well, I guess I'll just thought, "Okay, well, I guess I'll just go to the dining hall and eat by go to the dining hall and eat by go to the dining hall and eat by myself." Now, I walked in the dining myself." Now, I walked in the dining myself." Now, I walked in the dining hall, and I realized that pretty much hall, and I realized that pretty much hall, and I realized that pretty much everybody was chatting with others. everybody was chatting with others. everybody was chatting with others. >> [laughter] >> [laughter] >> [laughter] >> I remember feeling in my body pretty >> I remember feeling in my body pretty >> I remember feeling in my body pretty anxious, like, "Oh my gosh, I have to anxious, like, "Oh my gosh, I have to anxious, like, "Oh my gosh, I have to sit by myself." And how are other people sit by myself." And how are other people sit by myself." And how are other people going to perceive me, right? going to perceive me, right? going to perceive me, right? >> This is Michaela Rodriguez, a new >> This is Michaela Rodriguez, a new >> This is Michaela Rodriguez, a new colleague of mine in the psychology colleague of mine in the psychology colleague of mine in the psychology department at Yale, and an academic department at Yale, and an academic department at Yale, and an academic expert on what we tend to get wrong when expert on what we tend to get wrong when expert on what we tend to get wrong when it comes to loneliness. it comes to loneliness. it comes to loneliness. >> I mean, it's a little embarrassing to >> I mean, it's a little embarrassing to >> I mean, it's a little embarrassing to say, but I did worry are other people say, but I did worry are other people say, but I did worry are other people going to think that I'm weird, that I going to think that I'm weird, that I going to think that I'm weird, that I have no friends. have no friends. have no friends. And so, anyway, I found a spot in the And so, anyway, I found a spot in the And so, anyway, I found a spot in the very back of the dining hall that was a very back of the dining hall that was a very back of the dining hall that was a little bit more sort of secluded where little bit more sort of secluded where little bit more sort of secluded where other people wouldn't really see me, and other people wouldn't really see me, and other people wouldn't really see me, and ate my lunch, but just sort of felt kind ate my lunch, but just sort of felt kind ate my lunch, but just sort of felt kind of awkward the whole time. of awkward the whole time. of awkward the whole time. >> Michaela's interest in the psychological >> Michaela's interest in the psychological >> Michaela's interest in the psychological effects of loneliness began back when effects of loneliness began back when effects of loneliness began back when she was a college student. she was a college student. she was a college student. >> This is really, I think, common, >> This is really, I think, common, >> This is really, I think, common, especially in in that age, right? And especially in in that age, right? And especially in in that age, right? And often on social media, seeing that other often on social media, seeing that other often on social media, seeing that other people are, at least seem to be having people are, at least seem to be having people are, at least seem to be having these really rich social lives, and these really rich social lives, and these really rich social lives, and traveling, and going to parties. It traveling, and going to parties. It traveling, and going to parties. It feels like there's this expectation that feels like there's this expectation that feels like there's this expectation that we also need to be very social, and that we also need to be very social, and that we also need to be very social, and that if we're not, that there's something if we're not, that there's something if we're not, that there's something wrong with us, that we're doing wrong with us, that we're doing wrong with us, that we're doing something wrong. I think there is this something wrong. I think there is this something wrong. I think there is this understanding that, well, if you have, understanding that, well, if you have, understanding that, well, if you have, for example, depression or an anxiety for example, depression or an anxiety for example, depression or an anxiety disorder, it's not necessarily that disorder, it's not necessarily that disorder, it's not necessarily that there's something wrong with you, right? there's something wrong with you, right? there's something wrong with you, right? It might be something's going on in your It might be something's going on in your It might be something's going on in your brain. There's this chemical imbalance, brain. There's this chemical imbalance, brain. There's this chemical imbalance, as people say, right? There's other as people say, right? There's other as people say, right? There's other genetic, environmental factors. genetic, environmental factors. genetic, environmental factors. But I do think that when it comes to But I do think that when it comes to But I do think that when it comes to loneliness, there still is this loneliness, there still is this loneliness, there still is this perception that if you're lonely, it's perception that if you're lonely, it's perception that if you're lonely, it's something about you, you know, you're something about you, you know, you're something about you, you know, you're not able maybe to make those not able maybe to make those not able maybe to make those connections. You're not socially skilled connections. You're not socially skilled connections. You're not socially skilled enough. And so, it does feel like enough. And so, it does feel like enough. And so, it does feel like there's an extra level of sort of shame there's an extra level of sort of shame there's an extra level of sort of shame that's attached to loneliness that maybe that's attached to loneliness that maybe that's attached to loneliness that maybe we're not seeing anymore with these we're not seeing anymore with these we're not seeing anymore with these other sort of mental health your other sort of mental health your other sort of mental health your negative sort of emotional experiences. negative sort of emotional experiences. negative sort of emotional experiences. >> And studies have shown that the stigma >> And studies have shown that the stigma >> And studies have shown that the stigma associated with loneliness can have big associated with loneliness can have big associated with loneliness can have big consequences for people who happen to be consequences for people who happen to be consequences for people who happen to be a bit solitary by nature. a bit solitary by nature. a bit solitary by nature. >> When American adults are told about a >> When American adults are told about a >> When American adults are told about a hypothetical person who likes to spend hypothetical person who likes to spend hypothetical person who likes to spend their time alone, those people rate that their time alone, those people rate that their time alone, those people rate that person as less desirable as a friend, person as less desirable as a friend, person as less desirable as a friend, less attractive, less competent. We make less attractive, less competent. We make less attractive, less competent. We make these sort of negative evaluations and these sort of negative evaluations and these sort of negative evaluations and negative assumptions about that person. negative assumptions about that person. negative assumptions about that person. >> And Michaela says that these negative >> And Michaela says that these negative >> And Michaela says that these negative assumptions have only gotten worse in assumptions have only gotten worse in assumptions have only gotten worse in the last few years. the last few years. the last few years. >> There are so many articles. I feel like >> There are so many articles. I feel like >> There are so many articles. I feel like I see one every single day I see one every single day I see one every single day >> [laughter] >> [laughter] >> [laughter] >> on the dangers of loneliness. But even >> on the dangers of loneliness. But even >> on the dangers of loneliness. But even in sociology, philosophy, public health, in sociology, philosophy, public health, in sociology, philosophy, public health, these related fields, we see that the these related fields, we see that the these related fields, we see that the vast majority of research on these vast majority of research on these vast majority of research on these topics is looking at sort of the dangers topics is looking at sort of the dangers topics is looking at sort of the dangers of being alone and the serious risks of being alone and the serious risks of being alone and the serious risks associated with loneliness. And I associated with loneliness. And I associated with loneliness. And I recognize that, you know, these messages recognize that, you know, these messages recognize that, you know, these messages are intended to be helpful and to are intended to be helpful and to are intended to be helpful and to encourage people to go out and seek encourage people to go out and seek encourage people to go out and seek social connection, which of course, as social connection, which of course, as social connection, which of course, as we know, is very important. At the same we know, is very important. At the same we know, is very important. At the same time, a few years ago, I sort of time, a few years ago, I sort of time, a few years ago, I sort of wondered whether these messages that wondered whether these messages that wondered whether these messages that we're receiving might have unintended we're receiving might have unintended we're receiving might have unintended negative consequences. Might they be negative consequences. Might they be negative consequences. Might they be counterproductive? counterproductive? counterproductive? >> Michaela decided to test this directly. >> Michaela decided to test this directly. >> Michaela decided to test this directly. She had subjects read a news article She had subjects read a news article She had subjects read a news article that either discussed the risks of being that either discussed the risks of being that either discussed the risks of being alone, like most news articles do these alone, like most news articles do these alone, like most news articles do these days, or one that talked about the days, or one that talked about the days, or one that talked about the benefits of alone time. She found that benefits of alone time. She found that benefits of alone time. She found that the simple act one article about the the simple act one article about the the simple act one article about the downside of solitude changed subjects' downside of solitude changed subjects' downside of solitude changed subjects' beliefs about the dangers of being beliefs about the dangers of being beliefs about the dangers of being alone. The participants who read the alone. The participants who read the alone. The participants who read the negative news article assumed that being negative news article assumed that being negative news article assumed that being alone would feel less enjoyable, that it alone would feel less enjoyable, that it alone would feel less enjoyable, that it would make you less hopeful, and that would make you less hopeful, and that would make you less hopeful, and that overall, you'd be less healthy. Okay, so overall, you'd be less healthy. Okay, so overall, you'd be less healthy. Okay, so makes sense, right? The information that makes sense, right? The information that makes sense, right? The information that we get from the media, we know we get from the media, we know we get from the media, we know influences our beliefs. But how do these influences our beliefs. But how do these influences our beliefs. But how do these beliefs that we hold about being alone beliefs that we hold about being alone beliefs that we hold about being alone actually influence our day-to-day actually influence our day-to-day actually influence our day-to-day experiences? experiences? experiences? To test this, Mikela recruited a To test this, Mikela recruited a To test this, Mikela recruited a different group of subjects. She first different group of subjects. She first different group of subjects. She first surveyed their beliefs about alone time, surveyed their beliefs about alone time, surveyed their beliefs about alone time, and then divided her subjects into two and then divided her subjects into two and then divided her subjects into two groups. Those who had positive beliefs groups. Those who had positive beliefs groups. Those who had positive beliefs about alone time, and those who thought about alone time, and those who thought about alone time, and those who thought more negatively about solitude. She then more negatively about solitude. She then more negatively about solitude. She then used a procedure known as experience used a procedure known as experience used a procedure known as experience sampling, in which researchers ping sampling, in which researchers ping sampling, in which researchers ping people at random times of the day and people at random times of the day and people at random times of the day and ask how they're feeling, to test what ask how they're feeling, to test what ask how they're feeling, to test what happened when the two different groups happened when the two different groups happened when the two different groups of subjects got stuck in short moments of subjects got stuck in short moments of subjects got stuck in short moments of solo time. of solo time. of solo time. >> People who believe that being alone is >> People who believe that being alone is >> People who believe that being alone is bad, right? That it's inherently lonely, bad, right? That it's inherently lonely, bad, right? That it's inherently lonely, that it's harmful for their well-being, that it's harmful for their well-being, that it's harmful for their well-being, whenever they were alone in their daily whenever they were alone in their daily whenever they were alone in their daily lives, Laurie, they felt significantly lives, Laurie, they felt significantly lives, Laurie, they felt significantly lonelier, more anxious, more stressed, lonelier, more anxious, more stressed, lonelier, more anxious, more stressed, more bored. They felt worse, right? more bored. They felt worse, right? more bored. They felt worse, right? Interestingly though, when we look at Interestingly though, when we look at Interestingly though, when we look at people who viewed being alone as a people who viewed being alone as a people who viewed being alone as a positive experience, we see the positive experience, we see the positive experience, we see the opposite. We see that when they spend opposite. We see that when they spend opposite. We see that when they spend time alone, they actually experience a time alone, they actually experience a time alone, they actually experience a decrease in loneliness, and a decrease decrease in loneliness, and a decrease decrease in loneliness, and a decrease in stress, and a decrease in anxiety and in stress, and a decrease in anxiety and in stress, and a decrease in anxiety and boredom. Not only that, they also boredom. Not only that, they also boredom. Not only that, they also experienced increases in positive experienced increases in positive experienced increases in positive emotions like contentment and emotions like contentment and emotions like contentment and relaxation. relaxation. relaxation. >> These findings are pretty incredible. >> These findings are pretty incredible. >> These findings are pretty incredible. How we think being alone is supposed to How we think being alone is supposed to How we think being alone is supposed to feel influences how being alone actually feel influences how being alone actually feel influences how being alone actually feels in the moment. And Mikela has feels in the moment. And Mikela has feels in the moment. And Mikela has observed this striking effect again and observed this striking effect again and observed this striking effect again and again. again. again. Take for example her recent study Take for example her recent study Take for example her recent study exploring cross-cultural differences in exploring cross-cultural differences in exploring cross-cultural differences in people's perceptions of loneliness. people's perceptions of loneliness. people's perceptions of loneliness. >> We recruited participants from nine >> We recruited participants from nine >> We recruited participants from nine countries, and this was spanning six countries, and this was spanning six countries, and this was spanning six continents. Every continent except continents. Every continent except continents. Every continent except Antarctica. Really hard to find people Antarctica. Really hard to find people Antarctica. Really hard to find people there to take our study. So, almost there to take our study. So, almost there to take our study. So, almost every continent, I will say. And so, we every continent, I will say. And so, we every continent, I will say. And so, we had, for example, Japan, Mexico, Brazil, had, for example, Japan, Mexico, Brazil, had, for example, Japan, Mexico, Brazil, Poland, South Africa, couple others. And Poland, South Africa, couple others. And Poland, South Africa, couple others. And essentially, we wanted to know how essentially, we wanted to know how essentially, we wanted to know how adults in these different countries view adults in these different countries view adults in these different countries view being alone, to what extent do they being alone, to what extent do they being alone, to what extent do they think being alone is positive or think being alone is positive or think being alone is positive or negative, right? Beneficial or harmful. negative, right? Beneficial or harmful. negative, right? Beneficial or harmful. We see that in countries like the US, We see that in countries like the US, We see that in countries like the US, the UK, the UK, the UK, Poland, in other words, countries that Poland, in other words, countries that Poland, in other words, countries that are more individualistic, people view are more individualistic, people view are more individualistic, people view being alone as more negative, as more being alone as more negative, as more being alone as more negative, as more unhealthy. Whereas people in Japan and unhealthy. Whereas people in Japan and unhealthy. Whereas people in Japan and Mexico, Mexico, Mexico, two very different countries, but both two very different countries, but both two very different countries, but both are we would consider collectivistic are we would consider collectivistic are we would consider collectivistic countries, countries, countries, viewed being alone as significantly more viewed being alone as significantly more viewed being alone as significantly more positive and healthier. positive and healthier. positive and healthier. >> What are some of the hypotheses for why >> What are some of the hypotheses for why >> What are some of the hypotheses for why collectivist cultures value solitude collectivist cultures value solitude collectivist cultures value solitude more? more? more? >> One of the things we know about more >> One of the things we know about more >> One of the things we know about more collectivistic cultures is that people collectivistic cultures is that people collectivistic cultures is that people view the self as more interdependent. view the self as more interdependent. view the self as more interdependent. So, what I mean is that people view So, what I mean is that people view So, what I mean is that people view themselves as an individual as themselves as an individual as themselves as an individual as intertwined with their family members, intertwined with their family members, intertwined with their family members, their friends, their community. In other their friends, their community. In other their friends, their community. In other words, who I am is linked to who, you words, who I am is linked to who, you words, who I am is linked to who, you know, my friends and family are. And so, know, my friends and family are. And so, know, my friends and family are. And so, I think that actually changes what being I think that actually changes what being I think that actually changes what being alone means, right? Because when I'm alone means, right? Because when I'm alone means, right? Because when I'm physically alone, yes, I'm by myself, physically alone, yes, I'm by myself, physically alone, yes, I'm by myself, but if I have this sense that my but if I have this sense that my but if I have this sense that my identity is always tied to my loved identity is always tied to my loved identity is always tied to my loved ones, then maybe that aloneness is ones, then maybe that aloneness is ones, then maybe that aloneness is actually less threatening. Because even actually less threatening. Because even actually less threatening. Because even though I'm physically by myself, I'm though I'm physically by myself, I'm though I'm physically by myself, I'm carrying my mom, right? I'm carrying my carrying my mom, right? I'm carrying my carrying my mom, right? I'm carrying my dad, I'm carrying my two little sisters dad, I'm carrying my two little sisters dad, I'm carrying my two little sisters with me all the time. I'm carrying these with me all the time. I'm carrying these with me all the time. I'm carrying these sources of meaning with me wherever I sources of meaning with me wherever I sources of meaning with me wherever I go. go. go. Whereas in more individualistic Whereas in more individualistic Whereas in more individualistic cultures, we know that the self is cultures, we know that the self is cultures, we know that the self is really viewed as a distinct entity that really viewed as a distinct entity that really viewed as a distinct entity that is not connected really to anybody else, is not connected really to anybody else, is not connected really to anybody else, right? We're unique, we're our own right? We're unique, we're our own right? We're unique, we're our own person. I will note, you know, it's not person. I will note, you know, it's not person. I will note, you know, it's not that that's inherently better or worse. that that's inherently better or worse. that that's inherently better or worse. These are just sort of different ways of These are just sort of different ways of These are just sort of different ways of viewing oneself. But if we do see the viewing oneself. But if we do see the viewing oneself. But if we do see the self as independent and not linked to self as independent and not linked to self as independent and not linked to other people. other people. other people. Then I think when we're alone, we really Then I think when we're alone, we really Then I think when we're alone, we really are sort of disconnected, right? And so are sort of disconnected, right? And so are sort of disconnected, right? And so I think there could be this sort of I think there could be this sort of I think there could be this sort of protective effect of having this more protective effect of having this more protective effect of having this more interdependent view of the self. interdependent view of the self. interdependent view of the self. >> Michaela's work seems to be bearing out >> Michaela's work seems to be bearing out >> Michaela's work seems to be bearing out what historian Fay Bound Alberti said what historian Fay Bound Alberti said what historian Fay Bound Alberti said earlier. That how a culture thinks being earlier. That how a culture thinks being earlier. That how a culture thinks being alone is supposed to feel [music] alone is supposed to feel [music] alone is supposed to feel [music] influences how being alone actually influences how being alone actually influences how being alone actually feels. In this and so many other feels. In this and so many other feels. In this and so many other studies, Michaela has found that if you studies, Michaela has found that if you studies, Michaela has found that if you believe alone time is going to suck, believe alone time is going to suck, believe alone time is going to suck, then your alone time will feel yuckier then your alone time will feel yuckier then your alone time will feel yuckier and lonelier. and lonelier. and lonelier. And that is a very worrying conclusion, And that is a very worrying conclusion, And that is a very worrying conclusion, especially for someone who hosts a especially for someone who hosts a especially for someone who hosts a podcast [music] that talks a lot about podcast [music] that talks a lot about podcast [music] that talks a lot about social connection. social connection. social connection. So much of our modern public health So much of our modern public health So much of our modern public health messaging tries to teach people about messaging tries to teach people about messaging tries to teach people about the negative effects of loneliness, but the negative effects of loneliness, but the negative effects of loneliness, but that messaging might ironically be that messaging might ironically be that messaging might ironically be making the loneliness crisis even worse. making the loneliness crisis even worse. making the loneliness crisis even worse. And Michaela says that this stems from a And Michaela says that this stems from a And Michaela says that this stems from a specific [music] thing that many news specific [music] thing that many news specific [music] thing that many news articles get wrong when it comes to articles get wrong when it comes to articles get wrong when it comes to loneliness. loneliness. loneliness. >> We see the vast majority of of news >> We see the vast majority of of news >> We see the vast majority of of news articles using loneliness and solitude articles using loneliness and solitude articles using loneliness and solitude interchangeably, which interchangeably, which interchangeably, which I think is I think is I think is not only inaccurate, I think it's also not only inaccurate, I think it's also not only inaccurate, I think it's also harmful. These experiences are distinct. harmful. These experiences are distinct. harmful. These experiences are distinct. Being alone is not loneliness. We can Being alone is not loneliness. We can Being alone is not loneliness. We can think of loneliness as a feeling, right? think of loneliness as a feeling, right? think of loneliness as a feeling, right? It is a subjective experience of feeling It is a subjective experience of feeling It is a subjective experience of feeling disconnected regardless of whether disconnected regardless of whether disconnected regardless of whether you're physically by yourself or with you're physically by yourself or with you're physically by yourself or with other people. You can feel lonely even other people. You can feel lonely even other people. You can feel lonely even when you're in a crowd, right? In a when you're in a crowd, right? In a when you're in a crowd, right? In a party. And actually, what I found in my party. And actually, what I found in my party. And actually, what I found in my work, we see that work, we see that work, we see that the most sort of intense or painful the most sort of intense or painful the most sort of intense or painful loneliness often comes when we're with loneliness often comes when we're with loneliness often comes when we're with others because we have this expectation others because we have this expectation others because we have this expectation that we should be feeling connected to that we should be feeling connected to that we should be feeling connected to them. them. them. But for one reason or another, we don't. But for one reason or another, we don't. But for one reason or another, we don't. >> And so how correlated are loneliness and >> And so how correlated are loneliness and >> And so how correlated are loneliness and solitude? solitude? solitude? >> We've seen from decades of work that >> We've seen from decades of work that >> We've seen from decades of work that loneliness and solitude are actually loneliness and solitude are actually loneliness and solitude are actually weekly correlated, and the correlation weekly correlated, and the correlation weekly correlated, and the correlation is around .2. So, just for those is around .2. So, just for those is around .2. So, just for those listening, you know, we we think of listening, you know, we we think of listening, you know, we we think of correlations as a strength of a correlations as a strength of a correlations as a strength of a relationship between two experiences. relationship between two experiences. relationship between two experiences. Zero means there's no relationship at Zero means there's no relationship at Zero means there's no relationship at all. One means that they're the same all. One means that they're the same all. One means that they're the same thing. They're completely related. When thing. They're completely related. When thing. They're completely related. When one goes up, the other goes up. And so, one goes up, the other goes up. And so, one goes up, the other goes up. And so, .2 is I mean, it's not nothing, right? .2 is I mean, it's not nothing, right? .2 is I mean, it's not nothing, right? We know that in general, when people are We know that in general, when people are We know that in general, when people are alone, especially for longer periods of alone, especially for longer periods of alone, especially for longer periods of time, it is common for them to time, it is common for them to time, it is common for them to experience loneliness. That said, .2 is experience loneliness. That said, .2 is experience loneliness. That said, .2 is still not super high. And so, there are still not super high. And so, there are still not super high. And so, there are many, many instances in which people are many, many instances in which people are many, many instances in which people are alone and not lonely at all. So, alone and not lonely at all. So, alone and not lonely at all. So, loneliness is this subjective feeling, loneliness is this subjective feeling, loneliness is this subjective feeling, whereas solitude we can think of as whereas solitude we can think of as whereas solitude we can think of as the objective state of being alone. the objective state of being alone. the objective state of being alone. And so, solitude in that sense is not And so, solitude in that sense is not And so, solitude in that sense is not inherently a positive or negative inherently a positive or negative inherently a positive or negative experience. experience. experience. >> Solitude is inherently neutral, but >> Solitude is inherently neutral, but >> Solitude is inherently neutral, but Michaela has also found that more Michaela has also found that more Michaela has also found that more effective alone time can actually make effective alone time can actually make effective alone time can actually make us happier. us happier. us happier. >> We're taught so much about how to >> We're taught so much about how to >> We're taught so much about how to interact with others, how to work as a interact with others, how to work as a interact with others, how to work as a team. We're not often explicitly taught team. We're not often explicitly taught team. We're not often explicitly taught how to be alone. It's something we sort how to be alone. It's something we sort how to be alone. It's something we sort of have to figure out on our own. I of have to figure out on our own. I of have to figure out on our own. I really view really view really view solitude as a skill. You know, it takes solitude as a skill. You know, it takes solitude as a skill. You know, it takes practice, it takes time to really practice, it takes time to really practice, it takes time to really cultivate this positive relationship to cultivate this positive relationship to cultivate this positive relationship to solitude. solitude. solitude. >> What are some of the best benefits of >> What are some of the best benefits of >> What are some of the best benefits of solitude? solitude? solitude? >> One of the >> One of the >> One of the I would say I would say I would say biggest benefits of spending time alone biggest benefits of spending time alone biggest benefits of spending time alone is emotional deactivation, where is emotional deactivation, where is emotional deactivation, where essentially when we spend time alone, essentially when we spend time alone, essentially when we spend time alone, you know, in general, our intense you know, in general, our intense you know, in general, our intense negative emotions, as well as our negative emotions, as well as our negative emotions, as well as our intense positive emotions, intense positive emotions, intense positive emotions, become less intense. The emotions become become less intense. The emotions become become less intense. The emotions become a little bit more neutralized. a little bit more neutralized. a little bit more neutralized. We know, for example, that when we spend We know, for example, that when we spend We know, for example, that when we spend time with other people, that presence of time with other people, that presence of time with other people, that presence of others can amplify our emotional others can amplify our emotional others can amplify our emotional experiences, right? Being with others experiences, right? Being with others experiences, right? Being with others makes anxiety often even more intense or makes anxiety often even more intense or makes anxiety often even more intense or can make excitement, happiness even more can make excitement, happiness even more can make excitement, happiness even more intense. And so, when we're alone, we intense. And so, when we're alone, we intense. And so, when we're alone, we don't have that sort of feedback from don't have that sort of feedback from don't have that sort of feedback from others and often there's less others and often there's less others and often there's less stimulation in the environment and so stimulation in the environment and so stimulation in the environment and so it can help sort of it can help sort of it can help sort of deactivate intense negative emotions. deactivate intense negative emotions. deactivate intense negative emotions. I've run several studies where I've had I've run several studies where I've had I've run several studies where I've had participants come into the lab, indicate participants come into the lab, indicate participants come into the lab, indicate how they're feeling in that moment, and how they're feeling in that moment, and how they're feeling in that moment, and then they spend 10 to 15 minutes in one then they spend 10 to 15 minutes in one then they spend 10 to 15 minutes in one study we had them spend 30 minutes by study we had them spend 30 minutes by study we had them spend 30 minutes by themselves without actually any laptop, themselves without actually any laptop, themselves without actually any laptop, any phone, any device, with no activity, any phone, any device, with no activity, any phone, any device, with no activity, just truly by themselves with their just truly by themselves with their just truly by themselves with their thoughts sitting in a chair. thoughts sitting in a chair. thoughts sitting in a chair. And even then, we see that both positive And even then, we see that both positive And even then, we see that both positive emotion and negative emotion decreased. emotion and negative emotion decreased. emotion and negative emotion decreased. Emotions became more neutral. Emotions became more neutral. Emotions became more neutral. >> Michaela has found that being left alone >> Michaela has found that being left alone >> Michaela has found that being left alone with our thoughts, without the option of with our thoughts, without the option of with our thoughts, without the option of electrocuting ourselves, can be useful electrocuting ourselves, can be useful electrocuting ourselves, can be useful for regulating our feelings. for regulating our feelings. for regulating our feelings. Honestly, this result surprised me a Honestly, this result surprised me a Honestly, this result surprised me a bit. Whenever I'm feeling an intense bit. Whenever I'm feeling an intense bit. Whenever I'm feeling an intense emotion, my instinct is to reach out to emotion, my instinct is to reach out to emotion, my instinct is to reach out to a friend so that I can talk through what a friend so that I can talk through what a friend so that I can talk through what I'm experiencing. I'm experiencing. I'm experiencing. I hadn't realized that being by myself I hadn't realized that being by myself I hadn't realized that being by myself could also be helpful. could also be helpful. could also be helpful. >> There are many situations in which, for >> There are many situations in which, for >> There are many situations in which, for example, seeking social support and example, seeking social support and example, seeking social support and talking to others can help. Other people talking to others can help. Other people talking to others can help. Other people can help shift our perspectives or they can help shift our perspectives or they can help shift our perspectives or they can just give us a hug and remind us can just give us a hug and remind us can just give us a hug and remind us that everything's going to be okay or that everything's going to be okay or that everything's going to be okay or they can help normalize our experiences. they can help normalize our experiences. they can help normalize our experiences. There's lots of things we can gain from There's lots of things we can gain from There's lots of things we can gain from talking to others when we're feeling talking to others when we're feeling talking to others when we're feeling upset. upset. upset. But, sometimes when we're in this really But, sometimes when we're in this really But, sometimes when we're in this really hot emotional state, people want to be hot emotional state, people want to be hot emotional state, people want to be by themselves and I think that's not by themselves and I think that's not by themselves and I think that's not inherently a bad thing. Stepping back inherently a bad thing. Stepping back inherently a bad thing. Stepping back and spending some time by yourself can and spending some time by yourself can and spending some time by yourself can help you sort of cool off a little bit, help you sort of cool off a little bit, help you sort of cool off a little bit, just like when, you know, people are in just like when, you know, people are in just like when, you know, people are in the middle of an argument, whether it's the middle of an argument, whether it's the middle of an argument, whether it's a romantic couple or friends, sometimes a romantic couple or friends, sometimes a romantic couple or friends, sometimes it's like, "Hey, let's take a minute. it's like, "Hey, let's take a minute. it's like, "Hey, let's take a minute. Let's go into our rooms and then let's Let's go into our rooms and then let's Let's go into our rooms and then let's come back, right?" To just sort of relax come back, right?" To just sort of relax come back, right?" To just sort of relax for a moment. That can be really for a moment. That can be really for a moment. That can be really powerful. powerful. powerful. >> And for those who are uncomfortable with >> And for those who are uncomfortable with >> And for those who are uncomfortable with being alone without any distractions, being alone without any distractions, being alone without any distractions, Michaela has some good news. To reap the Michaela has some good news. To reap the Michaela has some good news. To reap the emotional benefits of alone time, you emotional benefits of alone time, you emotional benefits of alone time, you don't necessarily just have to stare don't necessarily just have to stare don't necessarily just have to stare into the void. into the void. into the void. >> Being alone isn't just have to be >> Being alone isn't just have to be >> Being alone isn't just have to be sitting by yourself thinking, reflecting sitting by yourself thinking, reflecting sitting by yourself thinking, reflecting on your life. It can, but you can do so on your life. It can, but you can do so on your life. It can, but you can do so many different things. You can take a many different things. You can take a many different things. You can take a walk, you can read, you can tidy things walk, you can read, you can tidy things walk, you can read, you can tidy things up, you can cook. And so, you know, when up, you can cook. And so, you know, when up, you can cook. And so, you know, when people engage in these different people engage in these different people engage in these different activities when they're alone, it can activities when they're alone, it can activities when they're alone, it can both serve as a sort of distraction from both serve as a sort of distraction from both serve as a sort of distraction from what's going on, what's going on, what's going on, and also just help them kind of relax, and also just help them kind of relax, and also just help them kind of relax, right? And even physiologically help right? And even physiologically help right? And even physiologically help their body sort of recover from maybe a their body sort of recover from maybe a their body sort of recover from maybe a stressful experience, stressful experience, stressful experience, which really I think stands in contrast which really I think stands in contrast which really I think stands in contrast to a lot of what we're hearing now in to a lot of what we're hearing now in to a lot of what we're hearing now in the media, and also a lot of what the media, and also a lot of what the media, and also a lot of what psychologists are studying. psychologists are studying. psychologists are studying. >> Your research has these really clear >> Your research has these really clear >> Your research has these really clear implications for public health implications for public health implications for public health messaging. If coverage of loneliness messaging. If coverage of loneliness messaging. If coverage of loneliness might be making things worse, what might be making things worse, what might be making things worse, what should media, you know, this podcast should media, you know, this podcast should media, you know, this podcast included, honestly, be doing included, honestly, be doing included, honestly, be doing differently? differently? differently? >> I think that we should be >> I think that we should be >> I think that we should be emphasizing the importance of social emphasizing the importance of social emphasizing the importance of social connection, while also communicating to connection, while also communicating to connection, while also communicating to people that being alone can be okay, people that being alone can be okay, people that being alone can be okay, that it can be good, that there are that it can be good, that there are that it can be good, that there are situations in which it can promote our situations in which it can promote our situations in which it can promote our well-being, and not just our well-being, well-being, and not just our well-being, well-being, and not just our well-being, it can promote our social lives and our it can promote our social lives and our it can promote our social lives and our relationships and enhance them, right? I relationships and enhance them, right? I relationships and enhance them, right? I think if we had messaging that better think if we had messaging that better think if we had messaging that better sort of portrayed both social connection sort of portrayed both social connection sort of portrayed both social connection and solitude as good for us, and solitude as good for us, and solitude as good for us, then I think we're in the situation then I think we're in the situation then I think we're in the situation where no matter what people are doing, where no matter what people are doing, where no matter what people are doing, whether they're by themselves or with whether they're by themselves or with whether they're by themselves or with others, they can make the most of that others, they can make the most of that others, they can make the most of that experience. experience. experience. >> You've also done some fascinating work >> You've also done some fascinating work >> You've also done some fascinating work on how the language we use matters. Tell on how the language we use matters. Tell on how the language we use matters. Tell me about that work. me about that work. me about that work. >> I ran this really simple study with my >> I ran this really simple study with my >> I ran this really simple study with my wonderful collaborator Scott Campbell at wonderful collaborator Scott Campbell at wonderful collaborator Scott Campbell at The Ohio State University, The Ohio State University, The Ohio State University, and we essentially asked participants to and we essentially asked participants to and we essentially asked participants to report their perceptions of and beliefs report their perceptions of and beliefs report their perceptions of and beliefs about and experiences of five different about and experiences of five different about and experiences of five different words for being alone. So, we had words for being alone. So, we had words for being alone. So, we had solitude, being alone, time alone, me solitude, being alone, time alone, me solitude, being alone, time alone, me time, and isolation. time, and isolation. time, and isolation. Words that are often used Words that are often used Words that are often used interchangeably, but they have very interchangeably, but they have very interchangeably, but they have very different connotations. And indeed, we different connotations. And indeed, we different connotations. And indeed, we found that people viewed me time as the found that people viewed me time as the found that people viewed me time as the most positive and they viewed isolation most positive and they viewed isolation most positive and they viewed isolation as the most negative. I also want to as the most negative. I also want to as the most negative. I also want to mention a really interesting finding mention a really interesting finding mention a really interesting finding which was that people viewed time alone which was that people viewed time alone which was that people viewed time alone as more positive [clears throat] as more positive [clears throat] as more positive [clears throat] than being alone, even though it's so than being alone, even though it's so than being alone, even though it's so easy to just say this interchangeably, easy to just say this interchangeably, easy to just say this interchangeably, right? But, I think the idea there is right? But, I think the idea there is right? But, I think the idea there is that time alone is maybe this like that time alone is maybe this like that time alone is maybe this like evening that we're spending by evening that we're spending by evening that we're spending by ourselves. Whereas, being alone feels a ourselves. Whereas, being alone feels a ourselves. Whereas, being alone feels a little more long-term. little more long-term. little more long-term. >> Michaela ran an experiment to test how >> Michaela ran an experiment to test how >> Michaela ran an experiment to test how these different phrases affected these different phrases affected these different phrases affected people's mood and behavior. people's mood and behavior. people's mood and behavior. She split a group of college students She split a group of college students She split a group of college students into two experimental groups and asked into two experimental groups and asked into two experimental groups and asked them all to spend 30 minutes by them all to spend 30 minutes by them all to spend 30 minutes by themselves. The only difference between themselves. The only difference between themselves. The only difference between the two groups was in the instructions the two groups was in the instructions the two groups was in the instructions they received. they received. they received. >> Half of the participants were told to >> Half of the participants were told to >> Half of the participants were told to spend 30 minutes in me time. The other spend 30 minutes in me time. The other spend 30 minutes in me time. The other half were told to spend 30 minutes in half were told to spend 30 minutes in half were told to spend 30 minutes in isolation. So, what we found in this isolation. So, what we found in this isolation. So, what we found in this study is that people who spent those 30 study is that people who spent those 30 study is that people who spent those 30 minutes in isolation minutes in isolation minutes in isolation experienced a reduction in their experienced a reduction in their experienced a reduction in their negative emotion and also a reduction in negative emotion and also a reduction in negative emotion and also a reduction in their positive emotion. So, like I was their positive emotion. So, like I was their positive emotion. So, like I was saying earlier, right? We see this saying earlier, right? We see this saying earlier, right? We see this deactivation effect where people are deactivation effect where people are deactivation effect where people are feeling less bad, but they're also feeling less bad, but they're also feeling less bad, but they're also feeling less good. In the me time group, feeling less good. In the me time group, feeling less good. In the me time group, we see something different. We see that we see something different. We see that we see something different. We see that positive emotion significantly went up positive emotion significantly went up positive emotion significantly went up and negative emotion went down even more and negative emotion went down even more and negative emotion went down even more so than it did in that other group, so than it did in that other group, so than it did in that other group, right? And so, the me time group felt right? And so, the me time group felt right? And so, the me time group felt better after those 30 minutes. Not just better after those 30 minutes. Not just better after those 30 minutes. Not just that, we asked our participants to that, we asked our participants to that, we asked our participants to report what they had thought about in report what they had thought about in report what they had thought about in that 30-minute period and also what they that 30-minute period and also what they that 30-minute period and also what they did. Interestingly, Laurie, we didn't did. Interestingly, Laurie, we didn't did. Interestingly, Laurie, we didn't see any differences in what participants see any differences in what participants see any differences in what participants reported doing in those 30 minutes reported doing in those 30 minutes reported doing in those 30 minutes between me time and isolation. We did, between me time and isolation. We did, between me time and isolation. We did, however, see a significant difference in however, see a significant difference in however, see a significant difference in what participants reported thinking what participants reported thinking what participants reported thinking about. So, in the me time group, about. So, in the me time group, about. So, in the me time group, participants were more likely to think participants were more likely to think participants were more likely to think about personal growth, about personal growth, about personal growth, whereas in isolation, they were more whereas in isolation, they were more whereas in isolation, they were more likely to think about work and school. likely to think about work and school. likely to think about work and school. And so, it is a little interesting, And so, it is a little interesting, And so, it is a little interesting, right? How even just the words we use right? How even just the words we use right? How even just the words we use can maybe shift what we do in this time. can maybe shift what we do in this time. can maybe shift what we do in this time. >> So, to recap, loneliness and being >> So, to recap, loneliness and being >> So, to recap, loneliness and being alone, two very different things. And alone, two very different things. And alone, two very different things. And how we think about and describe these how we think about and describe these how we think about and describe these concepts matters a lot. Because neither concepts matters a lot. Because neither concepts matters a lot. Because neither loneliness nor solitude are inherently loneliness nor solitude are inherently loneliness nor solitude are inherently bad. Being alone can leave you feeling bad. Being alone can leave you feeling bad. Being alone can leave you feeling calmer, clearer, and more emotionally calmer, clearer, and more emotionally calmer, clearer, and more emotionally grounded. And that ache of loneliness grounded. And that ache of loneliness grounded. And that ache of loneliness can be a helpful signal that you need to can be a helpful signal that you need to can be a helpful signal that you need to make changes or as a push for personal make changes or as a push for personal make changes or as a push for personal growth. growth. growth. Now, does that mean that social Now, does that mean that social Now, does that mean that social connection isn't beneficial or that connection isn't beneficial or that connection isn't beneficial or that people experiencing chronic isolation people experiencing chronic isolation people experiencing chronic isolation don't require serious intervention? Of don't require serious intervention? Of don't require serious intervention? Of course not. But what these findings do course not. But what these findings do course not. But what these findings do mean is that we might all benefit if we mean is that we might all benefit if we mean is that we might all benefit if we change the way we discuss feelings like change the way we discuss feelings like change the way we discuss feelings like loneliness and solitude, both on a loneliness and solitude, both on a loneliness and solitude, both on a societal level and as individuals. societal level and as individuals. societal level and as individuals. Michaela's research demonstrates that Michaela's research demonstrates that Michaela's research demonstrates that talking about these experiences talking about these experiences talking about these experiences differently might prevent a lot of differently might prevent a lot of differently might prevent a lot of unnecessary suffering. unnecessary suffering. unnecessary suffering. But Michaela's work also shows that But Michaela's work also shows that But Michaela's work also shows that alone time is a skill, one that we need alone time is a skill, one that we need alone time is a skill, one that we need to learn to use more effectively if we to learn to use more effectively if we to learn to use more effectively if we want to get more of its benefits. Which want to get more of its benefits. Which want to get more of its benefits. Which raises a question, what [music] does raises a question, what [music] does raises a question, what [music] does embracing healthy solitude actually look embracing healthy solitude actually look embracing healthy solitude actually look like in practice? like in practice? like in practice? After the break, we'll speak to a After the break, we'll speak to a After the break, we'll speak to a world-renowned advocate for alone time. world-renowned advocate for alone time. world-renowned advocate for alone time. We'll hear her tips for incorporating We'll hear her tips for incorporating We'll hear her tips for incorporating more well-being boosting solo moments more well-being boosting solo moments more well-being boosting solo moments into our day-to-day lives. The Happiness into our day-to-day lives. The Happiness into our day-to-day lives. The Happiness Lab will be right back. >> Hi, how's it going? Good, good. Thanks >> Hi, how's it going? Good, good. Thanks so much for taking the time to do this. so much for taking the time to do this. so much for taking the time to do this. I'm really excited. I love your show. I I'm really excited. I love your show. I I'm really excited. I love your show. I don't have my podcast anymore. So, every don't have my podcast anymore. So, every don't have my podcast anymore. So, every time I do it, I'm like, can I remember? time I do it, I'm like, can I remember? time I do it, I'm like, can I remember? But, it sounds like you can hear me But, it sounds like you can hear me But, it sounds like you can hear me okay. So. okay. So. okay. So. >> This is Emma Gannon. [music] >> This is Emma Gannon. [music] >> This is Emma Gannon. [music] Emma is a writer, podcaster, and the Emma is a writer, podcaster, and the Emma is a writer, podcaster, and the author of a new book, A Creative author of a new book, A Creative author of a new book, A Creative Compass: Finding Your Way to a Creative Compass: Finding Your Way to a Creative Compass: Finding Your Way to a Creative Life. Life. Life. She's written extensively about the She's written extensively about the She's written extensively about the connection between loneliness and connection between loneliness and connection between loneliness and solitude. And that's in part because solitude. And that's in part because solitude. And that's in part because Emma is a huge fan of alone time. Emma is a huge fan of alone time. Emma is a huge fan of alone time. >> It's such a nuanced topic because >> It's such a nuanced topic because >> It's such a nuanced topic because loneliness and solitude are so loneliness and solitude are so loneliness and solitude are so different. You can be lonely in a different. You can be lonely in a different. You can be lonely in a crowded room. You can be lonely in a crowded room. You can be lonely in a crowded room. You can be lonely in a marriage. You can be lonely at a party. marriage. You can be lonely at a party. marriage. You can be lonely at a party. When you're feeling lonely, I believe When you're feeling lonely, I believe When you're feeling lonely, I believe it's because you're really disconnected it's because you're really disconnected it's because you're really disconnected from yourself. You feel lonely inside from yourself. You feel lonely inside from yourself. You feel lonely inside yourself. Like, you feel lonely because yourself. Like, you feel lonely because yourself. Like, you feel lonely because no one understands you and you don't no one understands you and you don't no one understands you and you don't even understand you. even understand you. even understand you. And so, in my solitude, I don't feel And so, in my solitude, I don't feel And so, in my solitude, I don't feel lonely. I've chosen it, and I honestly lonely. I've chosen it, and I honestly lonely. I've chosen it, and I honestly think that some of my favorite memories think that some of my favorite memories think that some of my favorite memories are of me being alone, and are of me being alone, and are of me being alone, and sometimes I feel like it's controversial sometimes I feel like it's controversial sometimes I feel like it's controversial to say it because we're meant to like be to say it because we're meant to like be to say it because we're meant to like be on our deathbed and think that our best on our deathbed and think that our best on our deathbed and think that our best moments in life are with our loved ones. moments in life are with our loved ones. moments in life are with our loved ones. And of course, that is true. I'm not And of course, that is true. I'm not And of course, that is true. I'm not saying it's not. saying it's not. saying it's not. But, I think I'm also going to be on my But, I think I'm also going to be on my But, I think I'm also going to be on my deathbed thinking, that trip was amazing deathbed thinking, that trip was amazing deathbed thinking, that trip was amazing that I had by myself. Like, I went to that I had by myself. Like, I went to that I had by myself. Like, I went to New York by myself for a month 2 years New York by myself for a month 2 years New York by myself for a month 2 years ago, and I think about it all the time, ago, and I think about it all the time, ago, and I think about it all the time, and I want to do something like that and I want to do something like that and I want to do something like that again. again. again. >> When you think of an experience like >> When you think of an experience like >> When you think of an experience like traveling alone or dining alone, how traveling alone or dining alone, how traveling alone or dining alone, how does that differ when you're with does that differ when you're with does that differ when you're with another person? another person? another person? >> It's a totally different experience. So, >> It's a totally different experience. So, >> It's a totally different experience. So, when I'm with a friend and having when I'm with a friend and having when I'm with a friend and having dinner, I'm super focused on them. I'm dinner, I'm super focused on them. I'm dinner, I'm super focused on them. I'm focused on the experience, and I want to focused on the experience, and I want to focused on the experience, and I want to be present, and I want to be be present, and I want to be be present, and I want to be listening, and I want to be conscious of listening, and I want to be conscious of listening, and I want to be conscious of it being kind of reciprocal. You know, it being kind of reciprocal. You know, it being kind of reciprocal. You know, it's a dance and it's enjoyable and I it's a dance and it's enjoyable and I it's a dance and it's enjoyable and I love it. But when I'm in those love it. But when I'm in those love it. But when I'm in those environments, I'm not looking at my environments, I'm not looking at my environments, I'm not looking at my surroundings as much. I'm not tasting surroundings as much. I'm not tasting surroundings as much. I'm not tasting the food as much because I'm you know, the food as much because I'm you know, the food as much because I'm you know, my attention's on the other person. So my attention's on the other person. So my attention's on the other person. So when I'm on my own, when I'm on my own, when I'm on my own, I'm having a sensory experience. I'm I'm having a sensory experience. I'm I'm having a sensory experience. I'm taking in everything and looking around taking in everything and looking around taking in everything and looking around and people watching and I and people watching and I and people watching and I absolutely see it as an essential thing absolutely see it as an essential thing absolutely see it as an essential thing for my nervous system. I can like for my nervous system. I can like for my nervous system. I can like regulate myself back to my default regulate myself back to my default regulate myself back to my default setting, I think. Like I just went away setting, I think. Like I just went away setting, I think. Like I just went away for three nights last week by myself to for three nights last week by myself to for three nights last week by myself to a little town called Rye in England. a little town called Rye in England. a little town called Rye in England. It's an hour train from my house, super It's an hour train from my house, super It's an hour train from my house, super easy to get to. easy to get to. easy to get to. And um within maybe about half an hour And um within maybe about half an hour And um within maybe about half an hour of just getting off the train, of just getting off the train, of just getting off the train, being by myself, putting my bag down in being by myself, putting my bag down in being by myself, putting my bag down in the hotel room, lying on the bed, no one the hotel room, lying on the bed, no one the hotel room, lying on the bed, no one was going to get me for three days, and was going to get me for three days, and was going to get me for three days, and I had this like joy that went through my I had this like joy that went through my I had this like joy that went through my body, but more than that, I had this body, but more than that, I had this body, but more than that, I had this just sense of just sense of just sense of taking the mask off and like completely taking the mask off and like completely taking the mask off and like completely relaxing my whole entire body. relaxing my whole entire body. relaxing my whole entire body. And whenever I come back from those And whenever I come back from those And whenever I come back from those trips, my husband is like, "Wow, trips, my husband is like, "Wow, trips, my husband is like, "Wow, it's like a medicine. It's not something it's like a medicine. It's not something it's like a medicine. It's not something that you should think about as a luxury. that you should think about as a luxury. that you should think about as a luxury. You should think about it as as like a You should think about it as as like a You should think about it as as like a mental health toolkit. Once a month, I mental health toolkit. Once a month, I mental health toolkit. Once a month, I need to do something." And it doesn't need to do something." And it doesn't need to do something." And it doesn't have to be, you know, as expensive to go have to be, you know, as expensive to go have to be, you know, as expensive to go away. I'm not saying that, but it needs away. I'm not saying that, but it needs away. I'm not saying that, but it needs to be at least like a long walk in to be at least like a long walk in to be at least like a long walk in silence or something like that. silence or something like that. silence or something like that. >> Emma does admit, however, that spending >> Emma does admit, however, that spending >> Emma does admit, however, that spending time alone is not always super easy in a time alone is not always super easy in a time alone is not always super easy in a society that's biased against loners. society that's biased against loners. society that's biased against loners. >> Busy restaurants >> Busy restaurants >> Busy restaurants treat a solo diner as sort of less treat a solo diner as sort of less treat a solo diner as sort of less important because they're not making as important because they're not making as important because they're not making as much money from you. They'll sit you at much money from you. They'll sit you at much money from you. They'll sit you at the bar a lot. You know, you're like the bar a lot. You know, you're like the bar a lot. You know, you're like shoved in the corner a little bit or shoved in the corner a little bit or shoved in the corner a little bit or you're ignored. I've had that a bit you're ignored. I've had that a bit you're ignored. I've had that a bit actually, where I haven't really been actually, where I haven't really been actually, where I haven't really been sort of checked in on. You know, you're sort of checked in on. You know, you're sort of checked in on. You know, you're sort of left and you're trying to get sort of left and you're trying to get sort of left and you're trying to get the bill and then you want another drink the bill and then you want another drink the bill and then you want another drink and then it's too late. So I think it and then it's too late. So I think it and then it's too late. So I think it would be great for kind of restaurants would be great for kind of restaurants would be great for kind of restaurants or whatever to understand that you're or whatever to understand that you're or whatever to understand that you're still having an experience and you're still having an experience and you're still having an experience and you're still trying to have a lovely time. When still trying to have a lovely time. When still trying to have a lovely time. When I was in my 20s, I was more sort of I was in my 20s, I was more sort of I was in my 20s, I was more sort of unsure of myself and I think people unsure of myself and I think people unsure of myself and I think people would come up to me more or you know, would come up to me more or you know, would come up to me more or you know, you'd get men being weird or you would you'd get men being weird or you would you'd get men being weird or you would get people thinking you wanted company get people thinking you wanted company get people thinking you wanted company when you didn't and I felt when you didn't and I felt when you didn't and I felt self-conscious. But people don't come self-conscious. But people don't come self-conscious. But people don't come over to me as much. Like I'm older now over to me as much. Like I'm older now over to me as much. Like I'm older now and I'm confident and I'm like don't and I'm confident and I'm like don't and I'm confident and I'm like don't come near me. Like like I give that come near me. Like like I give that come near me. Like like I give that energy of like I'm busy and I'm eating. energy of like I'm busy and I'm eating. energy of like I'm busy and I'm eating. >> So we talked about traveling alone and >> So we talked about traveling alone and >> So we talked about traveling alone and dining alone. I'm curious about some of dining alone. I'm curious about some of dining alone. I'm curious about some of the other activities you've done on your the other activities you've done on your the other activities you've done on your own. Can you share some of those with own. Can you share some of those with own. Can you share some of those with me? me? me? >> Yeah, so I do like going with my friends >> Yeah, so I do like going with my friends >> Yeah, so I do like going with my friends to things, but I also actively choose to things, but I also actively choose to things, but I also actively choose moments to go alone. So moments to go alone. So moments to go alone. So I love going to the cinema by myself, I love going to the cinema by myself, I love going to the cinema by myself, especially to see something really especially to see something really especially to see something really moving. I saw a film called H is for moving. I saw a film called H is for moving. I saw a film called H is for Hawk recently, which is about grief and Hawk recently, which is about grief and Hawk recently, which is about grief and relationships to animals and had some relationships to animals and had some relationships to animals and had some deep themes and I just knew I wanted to deep themes and I just knew I wanted to deep themes and I just knew I wanted to watch it alone. I just wanted to really watch it alone. I just wanted to really watch it alone. I just wanted to really immerse myself. I didn't want to talk to immerse myself. I didn't want to talk to immerse myself. I didn't want to talk to anyone afterwards. I wanted to just go anyone afterwards. I wanted to just go anyone afterwards. I wanted to just go for a walk and really digest the film. for a walk and really digest the film. for a walk and really digest the film. Like I really don't always want input. I Like I really don't always want input. I Like I really don't always want input. I love sitting and like reflecting. love sitting and like reflecting. love sitting and like reflecting. >> I'm so glad you brought up that example >> I'm so glad you brought up that example >> I'm so glad you brought up that example of going to the film by yourself because of going to the film by yourself because of going to the film by yourself because I don't do that often, but there was I don't do that often, but there was I don't do that often, but there was this one period in grad school where I this one period in grad school where I this one period in grad school where I did it a lot. I was over in the UK. I did it a lot. I was over in the UK. I did it a lot. I was over in the UK. I was studying at the University of was studying at the University of was studying at the University of Bristol and I just like didn't know that Bristol and I just like didn't know that Bristol and I just like didn't know that many people. There was like great indie many people. There was like great indie many people. There was like great indie cinema in Bristol at the time and I'd cinema in Bristol at the time and I'd cinema in Bristol at the time and I'd walk there by myself and I'd watch the walk there by myself and I'd watch the walk there by myself and I'd watch the movies by myself. And I did have that movies by myself. And I did have that movies by myself. And I did have that feeling of feeling like a little bit of feeling of feeling like a little bit of feeling of feeling like a little bit of like a freak if someone see me by like a freak if someone see me by like a freak if someone see me by myself. They'd be like who's that weird myself. They'd be like who's that weird myself. They'd be like who's that weird person? But I remember walking home from person? But I remember walking home from person? But I remember walking home from those movies and having such interesting those movies and having such interesting those movies and having such interesting thoughts about them. I just kind of like thoughts about them. I just kind of like thoughts about them. I just kind of like sinking into them in a different way. sinking into them in a different way. sinking into them in a different way. And even now when I think about the And even now when I think about the And even now when I think about the specific films that I watched back then, specific films that I watched back then, specific films that I watched back then, I remember them in a really different I remember them in a really different I remember them in a really different way than like the last movie that I way than like the last movie that I way than like the last movie that I watched in the cinema with my husband watched in the cinema with my husband watched in the cinema with my husband here. You have a connection to the here. You have a connection to the here. You have a connection to the things that you experience on your own things that you experience on your own things that you experience on your own and that that's It's of special. and that that's It's of special. and that that's It's of special. >> It really is and I think it kind of >> It really is and I think it kind of >> It really is and I think it kind of preserves your individual experience. preserves your individual experience. preserves your individual experience. Like I remember once going to see this Like I remember once going to see this Like I remember once going to see this film, and I loved it. I was crying at film, and I loved it. I was crying at film, and I loved it. I was crying at the end. Like I had such a relationship the end. Like I had such a relationship the end. Like I had such a relationship with it. And then the person next to me with it. And then the person next to me with it. And then the person next to me who I went to watch the film with just who I went to watch the film with just who I went to watch the film with just turned to me and said, "That was awful, turned to me and said, "That was awful, turned to me and said, "That was awful, wasn't it?" They were like picking it wasn't it?" They were like picking it wasn't it?" They were like picking it apart for apart for apart for certain reasons. And I was like, "Oh, certain reasons. And I was like, "Oh, certain reasons. And I was like, "Oh, you've kind of just burst the moment I you've kind of just burst the moment I you've kind of just burst the moment I was having with it." So, I think was having with it." So, I think was having with it." So, I think sometimes it's just nice to kind of sink sometimes it's just nice to kind of sink sometimes it's just nice to kind of sink in. And I did go to a concert by myself in. And I did go to a concert by myself in. And I did go to a concert by myself recently as well, which was a first, I recently as well, which was a first, I recently as well, which was a first, I think, actually. And I was like, "Oh, think, actually. And I was like, "Oh, think, actually. And I was like, "Oh, this is um going to be a bit weird going this is um going to be a bit weird going this is um going to be a bit weird going by myself." Cuz you're really aware of by myself." Cuz you're really aware of by myself." Cuz you're really aware of how alone you are when you're in those how alone you are when you're in those how alone you are when you're in those big stadiums. And then I was wedged in big stadiums. And then I was wedged in big stadiums. And then I was wedged in the middle of two couples. And they were the middle of two couples. And they were the middle of two couples. And they were having like a date night. And I was having like a date night. And I was having like a date night. And I was like, "Oh, this is really challenging." like, "Oh, this is really challenging." like, "Oh, this is really challenging." But I had a good time. I got into it. But I had a good time. I got into it. But I had a good time. I got into it. >> You've also written about something that >> You've also written about something that >> You've also written about something that you've called artist dates. Where does you've called artist dates. Where does you've called artist dates. Where does this concept come from, and how do this concept come from, and how do this concept come from, and how do artist dates work? artist dates work? artist dates work? >> Yes. So, this is from Julia Cameron, the >> Yes. So, this is from Julia Cameron, the >> Yes. So, this is from Julia Cameron, the author of The Artist's Way and many author of The Artist's Way and many author of The Artist's Way and many other books. And I love it, and it's other books. And I love it, and it's other books. And I love it, and it's something that I do every week, something that I do every week, something that I do every week, actually. And it's essentially a solo actually. And it's essentially a solo actually. And it's essentially a solo date that you go on date that you go on date that you go on where you you have to do something just where you you have to do something just where you you have to do something just for the joy of it. So, you know, her for the joy of it. So, you know, her for the joy of it. So, you know, her thinking is that it really helps you thinking is that it really helps you thinking is that it really helps you come up with new ideas, but you're not come up with new ideas, but you're not come up with new ideas, but you're not really hunting for them. You're just really hunting for them. You're just really hunting for them. You're just having a little day out by yourself, having a little day out by yourself, having a little day out by yourself, essentially. And she has a list in The essentially. And she has a list in The essentially. And she has a list in The Artist's Way to sort of prompt you. And Artist's Way to sort of prompt you. And Artist's Way to sort of prompt you. And there are things like go to a pet store, there are things like go to a pet store, there are things like go to a pet store, go for a walk, go to an art gallery, go go for a walk, go to an art gallery, go go for a walk, go to an art gallery, go to the cinema. It's so joyful coming up to the cinema. It's so joyful coming up to the cinema. It's so joyful coming up with ideas for artist dates. And I think with ideas for artist dates. And I think with ideas for artist dates. And I think her thinking behind it is like, "You her thinking behind it is like, "You her thinking behind it is like, "You can't really be a creative person if can't really be a creative person if can't really be a creative person if you're not refilling the well." you're not refilling the well." you're not refilling the well." You need to go and do things and live You need to go and do things and live You need to go and do things and live out things for you to have ideas. out things for you to have ideas. out things for you to have ideas. >> Any good artist dates that you've been >> Any good artist dates that you've been >> Any good artist dates that you've been on recently? on recently? on recently? >> I mean, something that I do do is I go >> I mean, something that I do do is I go >> I mean, something that I do do is I go on Google Maps and I'll type in on Google Maps and I'll type in on Google Maps and I'll type in independent bookstore, and I'll just see independent bookstore, and I'll just see independent bookstore, and I'll just see what ones I haven't been to within like what ones I haven't been to within like what ones I haven't been to within like an hour's walk or whatever. And there's an hour's walk or whatever. And there's an hour's walk or whatever. And there's a little bookstore in London which is on a little bookstore in London which is on a little bookstore in London which is on a canal boat. a canal boat. a canal boat. And I I just thought, I'm going to walk And I I just thought, I'm going to walk And I I just thought, I'm going to walk to the canal boat. I'm going to, you to the canal boat. I'm going to, you to the canal boat. I'm going to, you know, see what's going on in this part know, see what's going on in this part know, see what's going on in this part of London. And I'm going to go to the of London. And I'm going to go to the of London. And I'm going to go to the bookstore. And then I'm going to walk bookstore. And then I'm going to walk bookstore. And then I'm going to walk home again. And that was my artist date home again. And that was my artist date home again. And that was my artist date for that day. for that day. for that day. >> I'm curious, do you still ever feel >> I'm curious, do you still ever feel >> I'm curious, do you still ever feel lonely when you're on your own? lonely when you're on your own? lonely when you're on your own? >> Well, when I was in New York for a >> Well, when I was in New York for a >> Well, when I was in New York for a month, I had moments of feeling a bit month, I had moments of feeling a bit month, I had moments of feeling a bit lonely. There is a tipping point of too lonely. There is a tipping point of too lonely. There is a tipping point of too much alone time. A month was long. My much alone time. A month was long. My much alone time. A month was long. My husband did come and visit me right in husband did come and visit me right in husband did come and visit me right in the middle for a few days. So, it broke the middle for a few days. So, it broke the middle for a few days. So, it broke it up a little bit. But there were just it up a little bit. But there were just it up a little bit. But there were just a few nights where I was like walking a few nights where I was like walking a few nights where I was like walking down the Hudson River path or whatever. down the Hudson River path or whatever. down the Hudson River path or whatever. And I would see like a group of four And I would see like a group of four And I would see like a group of four girlfriends laughing their heads off. girlfriends laughing their heads off. girlfriends laughing their heads off. And I would be like, okay, I really miss And I would be like, okay, I really miss And I would be like, okay, I really miss my friends right now. my friends right now. my friends right now. Or I would see then like a romantic Or I would see then like a romantic Or I would see then like a romantic sunset and someone taking like a selfie sunset and someone taking like a selfie sunset and someone taking like a selfie with their boyfriend. And I'd be like, with their boyfriend. And I'd be like, with their boyfriend. And I'd be like, oh, actually, I you know, I really miss oh, actually, I you know, I really miss oh, actually, I you know, I really miss my partner. But I think that's just my partner. But I think that's just my partner. But I think that's just normal. And then those feelings would normal. And then those feelings would normal. And then those feelings would come and then they would go again. So, come and then they would go again. So, come and then they would go again. So, it's such a normal human emotion. And it's such a normal human emotion. And it's such a normal human emotion. And so, I just let myself feel it, I think. so, I just let myself feel it, I think. so, I just let myself feel it, I think. >> And so, you mentioned this idea of the >> And so, you mentioned this idea of the >> And so, you mentioned this idea of the New York trip was starting to feel long, New York trip was starting to feel long, New York trip was starting to feel long, right? Any advice on getting the balance right? Any advice on getting the balance right? Any advice on getting the balance right between the kind of effective right between the kind of effective right between the kind of effective alone time, but not too much alone time? alone time, but not too much alone time? alone time, but not too much alone time? >> Yeah, I think it's about really >> Yeah, I think it's about really >> Yeah, I think it's about really understanding your own understanding your own understanding your own self and your own mind and knowing when self and your own mind and knowing when self and your own mind and knowing when and this is a huge one that I'm still and this is a huge one that I'm still and this is a huge one that I'm still trying to work out is like trying to work out is like trying to work out is like sometimes what I need is a night in by sometimes what I need is a night in by sometimes what I need is a night in by myself. And sometimes I need to put my myself. And sometimes I need to put my myself. And sometimes I need to put my shoes on and I need to go out and see a shoes on and I need to go out and see a shoes on and I need to go out and see a friend. friend. friend. So, So, So, yeah, I think it's about thinking about yeah, I think it's about thinking about yeah, I think it's about thinking about what you need in that moment. what you need in that moment. what you need in that moment. >> Any ways that you've gotten insight into >> Any ways that you've gotten insight into >> Any ways that you've gotten insight into what that looks like over time? what that looks like over time? what that looks like over time? >> I think over time, it's like making a >> I think over time, it's like making a >> I think over time, it's like making a note of how you feel. For example, note of how you feel. For example, note of how you feel. For example, recently, I just got over an an illness. recently, I just got over an an illness. recently, I just got over an an illness. And um I kept being like, "No, no, no, I And um I kept being like, "No, no, no, I And um I kept being like, "No, no, no, I should stay in again. I should stay in should stay in again. I should stay in should stay in again. I should stay in again." again." again." And I was like, "No, I know what I need. And I was like, "No, I know what I need. And I was like, "No, I know what I need. I need to go out with someone who makes I need to go out with someone who makes I need to go out with someone who makes me laugh, like one of my funniest me laugh, like one of my funniest me laugh, like one of my funniest friends." friends." friends." And that's what I did and I felt a And that's what I did and I felt a And that's what I did and I felt a million times better. Like it kind of million times better. Like it kind of million times better. Like it kind of was like helping me heal my illness. was like helping me heal my illness. was like helping me heal my illness. And so, yeah, it's like being very And so, yeah, it's like being very And so, yeah, it's like being very intentional with what you need and intentional with what you need and intentional with what you need and we go in and out of being a caterpillar we go in and out of being a caterpillar we go in and out of being a caterpillar and being a butterfly, don't we? You and being a butterfly, don't we? You and being a butterfly, don't we? You know, but at the heart of all of this, know, but at the heart of all of this, know, but at the heart of all of this, I've got to say I always need a bit of I've got to say I always need a bit of I've got to say I always need a bit of solitude. solitude. solitude. >> And so, for someone who's listening >> And so, for someone who's listening >> And so, for someone who's listening right now who might be really afraid to right now who might be really afraid to right now who might be really afraid to spend more time alone, what do you think spend more time alone, what do you think spend more time alone, what do you think that fear is really about? that fear is really about? that fear is really about? >> It's the same reason why >> It's the same reason why >> It's the same reason why maybe we're scared to maybe we're scared to maybe we're scared to put down the alcohol put down the alcohol put down the alcohol in the evenings or I don't know, sit in in the evenings or I don't know, sit in in the evenings or I don't know, sit in a room and think about something. I a room and think about something. I a room and think about something. I think there's a quote that's like every think there's a quote that's like every think there's a quote that's like every person's problem stems from being unable person's problem stems from being unable person's problem stems from being unable to sit alone in a room. to sit alone in a room. to sit alone in a room. >> The quote is actually from the French >> The quote is actually from the French >> The quote is actually from the French philosopher Blaise Pascal. All of philosopher Blaise Pascal. All of philosopher Blaise Pascal. All of humanity's problems stem from man's humanity's problems stem from man's humanity's problems stem from man's inability to sit quietly in a room inability to sit quietly in a room inability to sit quietly in a room alone. alone. alone. >> So, it's like for all the reasons we're >> So, it's like for all the reasons we're >> So, it's like for all the reasons we're on our phones for like 14 hours a day, on our phones for like 14 hours a day, on our phones for like 14 hours a day, it's the same thing. Like we don't want it's the same thing. Like we don't want it's the same thing. Like we don't want to be alone with our thoughts. to be alone with our thoughts. to be alone with our thoughts. I would assume it's because I would assume it's because I would assume it's because there's something that's not quite right there's something that's not quite right there's something that's not quite right and if we stop, we have to confront what and if we stop, we have to confront what and if we stop, we have to confront what that thing is. that thing is. that thing is. Whether that's that your marriage is Whether that's that your marriage is Whether that's that your marriage is falling apart or that you hate your job falling apart or that you hate your job falling apart or that you hate your job or or or you don't like your life. I mean, it's you don't like your life. I mean, it's you don't like your life. I mean, it's easier to plug the gap, isn't it, than easier to plug the gap, isn't it, than easier to plug the gap, isn't it, than go and sit by yourself and figure out go and sit by yourself and figure out go and sit by yourself and figure out what's going on. And I don't blame what's going on. And I don't blame what's going on. And I don't blame anyone for that. anyone for that. anyone for that. >> The first time you do it in part because >> The first time you do it in part because >> The first time you do it in part because taking this time to be alone can cause taking this time to be alone can cause taking this time to be alone can cause you to notice all the stuff that you've you to notice all the stuff that you've you to notice all the stuff that you've been avoiding. It can be very been avoiding. It can be very been avoiding. It can be very uncomfortable. And so, any advice for uncomfortable. And so, any advice for uncomfortable. And so, any advice for kind of getting over that hump so that kind of getting over that hump so that kind of getting over that hump so that you can get to enjoying it more? you can get to enjoying it more? you can get to enjoying it more? >> I mean, >> I mean, >> I mean, I don't think it needs to be this whole I don't think it needs to be this whole I don't think it needs to be this whole like I'm going to be a Buddhist monk for like I'm going to be a Buddhist monk for like I'm going to be a Buddhist monk for the weekend and only be with myself and the weekend and only be with myself and the weekend and only be with myself and my thoughts. No, I don't want to do my thoughts. No, I don't want to do my thoughts. No, I don't want to do that. that. that. That's too much. I start the day with my That's too much. I start the day with my That's too much. I start the day with my morning pages, which is like the Julia morning pages, which is like the Julia morning pages, which is like the Julia Cameron thing of journaling, writing Cameron thing of journaling, writing Cameron thing of journaling, writing three pages out. And honestly, if I do three pages out. And honestly, if I do three pages out. And honestly, if I do that in the morning, I'm kind of done that in the morning, I'm kind of done that in the morning, I'm kind of done with the introspection. I don't need to with the introspection. I don't need to with the introspection. I don't need to spend all day kind of, you know, spend all day kind of, you know, spend all day kind of, you know, meditating or whatever. It's not an exam meditating or whatever. It's not an exam meditating or whatever. It's not an exam that you need to pass, and that you need to pass, and that you need to pass, and >> [music] >> [music] >> [music] >> I think it's too daunting sometimes >> I think it's too daunting sometimes >> I think it's too daunting sometimes to have to be with our thoughts all the to have to be with our thoughts all the to have to be with our thoughts all the time. Solitude for me is about pleasure time. Solitude for me is about pleasure time. Solitude for me is about pleasure and enjoyment and joy. and enjoyment and joy. and enjoyment and joy. >> [music] >> [music] >> [music] >> Enjoy it and celebrate it and take up >> Enjoy it and celebrate it and take up >> Enjoy it and celebrate it and take up space even if you're on your own. space even if you're on your own. space even if you're on your own. >> Loneliness can be painful, especially >> Loneliness can be painful, especially >> Loneliness can be painful, especially when it's chronic and leaves us feeling when it's chronic and leaves us feeling when it's chronic and leaves us feeling disconnected both from other people and disconnected both from other people and disconnected both from other people and from ourselves. But loneliness can also from ourselves. But loneliness can also from ourselves. But loneliness can also be a totally normal and totally be a totally normal and totally be a totally normal and totally temporary feeling, temporary feeling, temporary feeling, >> [music] >> [music] >> [music] >> one that signals the need for change or >> one that signals the need for change or >> one that signals the need for change or an opportunity for growth. an opportunity for growth. an opportunity for growth. And that is the logic behind this week's And that is the logic behind this week's And that is the logic behind this week's happiness hot take. We need to think how happiness hot take. We need to think how happiness hot take. We need to think how we talk about loneliness, and we need to we talk about loneliness, and we need to we talk about loneliness, and we need to fight our urge to treat solitude as fight our urge to treat solitude as fight our urge to treat solitude as something suspicious. something suspicious. something suspicious. That way we can enjoy the benefits of That way we can enjoy the benefits of That way we can enjoy the benefits of social connection while also making room social connection while also making room social connection while also making room for time alone, a skill that many of us for time alone, a skill that many of us for time alone, a skill that many of us never learned to practice, never learned to practice, never learned to practice, >> [music] >> [music] >> [music] >> but one that can help us regulate our >> but one that can help us regulate our >> but one that can help us regulate our emotions, reconnect with ourselves, emotions, reconnect with ourselves, emotions, reconnect with ourselves, spark creativity, and even strengthen spark creativity, and even strengthen spark creativity, and even strengthen our relationships. our relationships. our relationships. Next week we'll wrap up our happiness Next week we'll wrap up our happiness Next week we'll wrap up our happiness hot take series with one final ever so hot take series with one final ever so hot take series with one final ever so hot happiness hot take. We should all hot happiness hot take. We should all hot happiness hot take. We should all bother each other a little more often. bother each other a little more often. bother each other a little more often. >> I'm going to try to borrow $100 from a >> I'm going to try to borrow $100 from a >> I'm going to try to borrow $100 from a stranger. Excuse me, do you think I can stranger. Excuse me, do you think I can stranger. Excuse me, do you think I can borrow $100 from you? borrow $100 from you? borrow $100 from you? >> That's next week on Happiness Lab with >> That's next week on Happiness Lab with >> That's next week on Happiness Lab with me, Dr. Laurie Santos.