What We Still Get Wrong About Happiness (Live at Dartmouth) | The Happiness Lab Podcast

Pushkin. Hello, Pushkin. Hello, listeners of " listeners of " listeners of " Happiness Lab", we are taking Happiness Lab", we are taking Happiness Lab", we are taking a break from our a break from our a break from our "Hot Moments of "Hot Moments of "Hot Moments of Happiness" series to bring Happiness" series to bring Happiness" series to bring you a special you a special you a special gift. If you gift. If you gift. If you listened to listened to listened to last week's last week's last week's episode, you know that episode, you know that episode, you know that I recently interviewed I recently interviewed happiness historian Darrin happiness historian Darrin McMahon, who McMahon, who McMahon, who told me all about the told me all about the told me all about the history of the idea of ​​the history of the idea of ​​the history of the idea of ​​the pursuit of happiness. Well, pursuit of happiness. Well, pursuit of happiness. Well, in this episode I'll in this episode I'll in this episode I'll continue my continue my continue my conversation with Darrin, conversation with Darrin, conversation with Darrin, but this time he'll but this time he'll but this time he'll be interviewing be interviewing be interviewing me. You can me. You can me. You can hear a live conversation hear a live conversation hear a live conversation we had at we had at we had at Darrin's alma mater, Darrin's alma mater, Darrin's alma mater, Dartmouth Dartmouth Dartmouth College, as part of the College, as part of the Nelson A. Nelson A. Rockefeller Center's public discussions at Rockefeller Center's public discussions at Rockefeller Center's public discussions at Dartmouth on the Dartmouth on the Dartmouth on the pursuit of happiness. We pursuit of happiness. We pursuit of happiness. We talked about everything talked about everything talked about everything related to the science of related to the science of related to the science of happiness, like what happiness, like what happiness, like what practices we can practices we can practices we can do to do to do to feel better, and feel better, and feel better, and some thoughts some thoughts some thoughts I had about new I had about new I had about new technologies and technologies and technologies and artificial intelligence. It artificial intelligence. It artificial intelligence. It was a wide-ranging and was a wide-ranging and was a wide-ranging and extremely fun extremely fun extremely fun conversation, so I couldn't conversation, so I couldn't conversation, so I couldn't wait to wait to wait to share it with share it with share it with all my all my podcast fans. So podcast fans. So enjoy a enjoy a enjoy a special episode of special episode of special episode of my conversation with my conversation with my conversation with Darrin McMahon Darrin McMahon Darrin McMahon at Dartmouth at Dartmouth at Dartmouth College. Our mind College. Our mind College. Our mind constantly tells constantly tells constantly tells us what to do to us what to do to us what to do to be happy. But what be happy. But what be happy. But what if our minds were if our minds were if our minds were wrong? What if wrong? What if wrong? What if our minds lied to us, our minds lied to us, our minds lied to us, leading us away from what would leading us away from what would leading us away from what would truly truly truly make us make us make us happy? The good happy? The good happy? The good news is news is that understanding the science that understanding the science that understanding the science of the mind can of the mind can of the mind can get us all back in the get us all back in the get us all back in the right direction right direction . You are listening to "The . You are listening to "The Happiness Lab" with Happiness Lab" with Happiness Lab" with Dr. Lori Santos. Dr. Lori Santos. This is the second column in This is the second column in our series on the our series on the our series on the true pursuit of true pursuit of true pursuit of happiness, both in the past and happiness, both in the past and happiness, both in the past and in the present, and in the present, and in the present, and perhaps in the perhaps in the perhaps in the future. future. future. Today we have Lori Today we have Lori Today we have Lori Santos, and I'm just Santos, and I'm just Santos, and I'm just happy to welcome you here, happy to welcome you here, happy to welcome you here, Lori. Last week, Lori. Last week, Lori. Last week, Lori very kindly Lori very kindly Lori very kindly invited me to be on the invited me to be on the invited me to be on the podcast and podcast and podcast and talk about happiness talk about happiness talk about happiness in the 18th century. in the 18th century. in the 18th century. Today, I think we'll Today, I think we'll Today, I think we'll talk about the talk about the talk about the pursuit of happiness in the 21st pursuit of happiness in the 21st pursuit of happiness in the 21st century, but feel free century, but feel free to delve into to delve into history if it history if it history if it moves you. moves you. moves you. Oh yes, we are going to our Oh yes, we are going to our Oh yes, we are going to our ancestors. So, ancestors. So, ancestors. So, Lori is known as an Lori is known as an Lori is known as an authority on the science of authority on the science of authority on the science of happiness and the pursuit of happiness and the pursuit of happiness and the pursuit of happiness, but you happiness, but you happiness, but you have gained experience as a have gained experience as a have gained experience as a psychologist and researcher psychologist and researcher psychologist and researcher studying studying studying animal behavior, animal behavior, animal behavior, particularly dogs. And I'd particularly dogs. And I'd particularly dogs. And I'd like to hear, I mean, like to hear, I mean, like to hear, I mean, as a dog lover, I as a dog lover, I as a dog lover, I understand the connection between understand the connection between understand the connection between dogs and dogs and dogs and the pursuit of happiness, but the pursuit of happiness, but the pursuit of happiness, but I'd like to hear if there's a I'd like to hear if there's a I'd like to hear if there's a connection between studying connection between studying connection between studying animals and the pursuit of animals and the pursuit of animals and the pursuit of happiness, or how you happiness, or how you happiness, or how you go from go from go from one to the other. one to the other. one to the other. Yes, yes, I Yes, yes, I Yes, yes, I mean the biggest mean the biggest mean the biggest connection between animals connection between animals connection between animals and happiness is animals and happiness is animals , definitely dogs , definitely dogs , definitely dogs make us really make us really make us really happy. They happy. They happy. They keep us moving, keep us moving, keep us moving, they make us they make us they make us attentive. A lot of attentive. A lot of attentive. A lot of evidence suggests evidence suggests evidence suggests that dog owners are that dog owners are that dog owners are happier, so if happier, so if happier, so if you need one you need one you need one quick tip on quick tip on quick tip on happiness, get a happiness, get a happiness, get a dog, it will make dog, it will make dog, it will make you happy. you happy. you happy. Not a cat? Not a cat? Not a cat? No, not cats either. No, not cats either. No, not cats either. Interestingly, there is less Interestingly, there is less Interestingly, there is less research on cats, research on cats, research on cats, but cats definitely but cats definitely but cats definitely make you make you make you happier too. But I happier too. But I happier too. But I think the think the think the psychological psychological psychological connection is one of the connection is one of the connection is one of the reasons I studied reasons I studied reasons I studied animals, because I've animals, because I've animals, because I've long been interested in the long been interested in the long been interested in the ways our ways our ways our minds lead us astray minds lead us astray minds lead us astray . Most . Most . Most people study people study people study animals to animals to animals to try to figure out try to figure out try to figure out if animals are as if animals are as if animals are as smart as humans, but smart as humans, but smart as humans, but I spend a lot of I spend a lot of I spend a lot of time studying time studying whether animals are as whether animals are as whether animals are as stupid as humans, and stupid as humans, and stupid as humans, and some of the reasons why some of the reasons why some of the reasons why humans are stupid. I was doing this humans are stupid. I was doing this humans are stupid. I was doing this with monkeys, studying the with monkeys, studying the with monkeys, studying the genomic errors that genomic errors that genomic errors that we have and we have and we have and trying to trying to trying to figure out if monkeys figure out if monkeys figure out if monkeys also exhibit them. also exhibit them. also exhibit them. With dogs, we really With dogs, we really With dogs, we really focused on focused on focused on social errors. social errors. social errors. Do dogs imitate Do dogs imitate Do dogs imitate to the point of to the point of to the point of doing truly doing truly doing truly irrational things, irrational things, irrational things, somewhat similar to what somewhat similar to what somewhat similar to what humans do? And humans do? And humans do? And the connection between that and the connection between that and the connection between that and working on happiness is that working on happiness is that working on happiness is that I've I've I've always believed that always believed that always believed that one of the reasons we're one of the reasons we're one of the reasons we're not as happy not as happy not as happy as we could as we could as we could be is not be is not be is not because we're not because we're not because we're not working on it. We working on it. We work very hard to work very hard to become happier, become happier, become happier, but we often do it but we often do it but we often do it wrong because wrong because wrong because our mind lies to us our mind lies to us our mind lies to us about what we about what we about what we need to do to need to do to need to do to be happier. So be happier. So be happier. So in a way, this in a way, this in a way, this work on animals, work on animals, work on animals, which is really which is really which is really about what about what about what makes our minds go makes our minds go makes our minds go haywire, is very similar haywire, is very similar haywire, is very similar to how I think about to how I think about to how I think about happiness. happiness. happiness. This is so interesting. Is This is so interesting. Is This is so interesting. Is there really work on there really work on there really work on animal welfare animal welfare ? When I... I always ? When I... I always ? When I... I always point out that Darwin point out that Darwin point out that Darwin writes about horses that writes about horses that writes about horses that are bad- are bad- are bad- tempered and some are tempered and some are cheerful, and he starts cheerful, and he starts cheerful, and he starts to think along to think along to think along those lines, and I don't those lines, and I don't those lines, and I don't know if there's any real know if there's any real know if there's any real work in the lab. work in the lab. work in the lab. Yes, there is a lot of work Yes, there is a lot of work Yes, there is a lot of work aimed at aimed at aimed at investigating what investigating what investigating what animals feel, animals feel, animals feel, right? This is really right? This is really right? This is really important even for important even for important even for animal researchers animal researchers animal researchers who are trying to who are trying to who are trying to improve the lives of improve the lives of improve the lives of animals and thinking about animals and thinking about animals and thinking about animal welfare and so on. animal welfare and so on. animal welfare and so on. The problem with animals The problem with animals The problem with animals and thinking about and thinking about and thinking about animal happiness is that animal happiness is that animal happiness is that I know, I know, I know, even if you, even if you, even if you, Darren, are happy, Darren, are happy, Darren, are happy, when I ask you, when I ask you, when I ask you, often in some very often in some very often in some very formalized formalized formalized psychometric psychometric psychometric survey where I survey where I survey where I ask you about your ask you about your ask you about your life experiences and life experiences and life experiences and your your your life satisfaction and so on; but life satisfaction and so on; but life satisfaction and so on; but ultimately, I have no ultimately, I have no ultimately, I have no way of objectively way of objectively way of objectively knowing whether knowing whether knowing whether you are happy. You have to you are happy. You have to you are happy. You have to tell me. tell me. tell me. Right. Right. Right. And the problem with And the problem with And the problem with animals is that no matter animals is that no matter animals is that no matter how much we how much we how much we ask them, ask them, ask them, they usually don't they usually don't they usually don't tell us directly. tell us directly. tell us directly. Because of the lack of Because of the lack of Because of the lack of verbal language, it's verbal language, it's verbal language, it's really hard for us really hard for us really hard for us to tell if to tell if to tell if animals are happy, so I think that's a animals are happy, so I think that's a animals are happy, so I think that's a major major major limitation of why there isn't a limitation of why there isn't a limitation of why there isn't a whole field of whole field of animal welfare research animal welfare research that's as that's as that's as robust as robust as robust as human research. It's human research. It's human research. It's very difficult for them to tell us this very difficult for them to tell us this very difficult for them to tell us this . . . But if I know But if I know But if I know a psychologist, it won't a psychologist, it won't a psychologist, it won't stop them. stop them. stop them. This is true. This is true. This is true. This is true. This is true. This is true. So you start with So you start with So you start with animals, and then it animals, and then it animals, and then it seems like in 2018 you seems like in 2018 you seems like in 2018 you launched this launched this launched this great course on " great course on " psychology and the good psychology and the good psychology and the good life." I'm sure life." I'm sure life." I'm sure you've answered you've answered you've answered this question a million this question a million this question a million times, but I'm times, but I'm times, but I'm curious how this happened. Have curious how this happened. Have curious how this happened. Have you taught you taught you taught well-being up to well-being up to well-being up to this point? What this point? What this point? What was the impetus? And was the impetus? And was the impetus? And then I would be then I would be then I would be particularly interested particularly interested particularly interested to know how to know how to know how the course has changed while the course has changed while the course has changed while you have been teaching it, because it you have been teaching it, because it you have been teaching it, because it seems you are still seems you are still seems you are still teaching it. teaching it. teaching it. Yes, that's true. Yes, that's true. Yes, that's true. The turn to thinking The turn to thinking The turn to thinking about well-being about well-being about well-being came along with a came along with a came along with a turn in my role turn in my role turn in my role at Yale at Yale at Yale . So, for . So, for . So, for most of my most of my most of my time at Yale, time at Yale, time at Yale, I was a I was a I was a professor in a professor in a professor in a front-row classroom front-row classroom front-row classroom very similar to this one. I very similar to this one. I very similar to this one. I interacted with interacted with interacted with the students a lot, but I was the students a lot, but I was the students a lot, but I was a bit detached a bit detached a bit detached from them. I seemed to be teaching from them. I seemed to be teaching from them. I seemed to be teaching them, but I wasn't really following what was them, but I wasn't really following what was happening in happening in student life. student life. student life. Everything changed when I Everything changed when I Everything changed when I became what is became what is became what is called a called a called a college dean on the Yale campus college dean on the Yale campus . These are . These are teachers who teachers who teachers who functionally live functionally live functionally live in dormitories with in dormitories with in dormitories with students. Yale is students. Yale is students. Yale is kind of like kind of like kind of like one of one of one of those weird colleges, those weird colleges, those weird colleges, like Hogwarts in Harry like Hogwarts in Harry like Hogwarts in Harry Potter, where there's something Potter, where there's something Potter, where there's something like Gryffindor and like Gryffindor and like Gryffindor and Slytherin. It's like mini- Slytherin. It's like mini- college within a college. I college within a college. I college within a college. I was the head of was the head of was the head of Silliman College, Silliman College, Silliman College, which has no which has no which has no relation to relation to relation to Slytherin, although it Slytherin, although it Slytherin, although it sounds very similar. sounds very similar. sounds very similar. But it meant that as a But it meant that as a But it meant that as a teacher, I teacher, I teacher, I saw student saw student saw student life very closely for the first time. I life very closely for the first time. I life very closely for the first time. I ate with the students in the ate with the students in the ate with the students in the cafeteria. I spent cafeteria. I spent cafeteria. I spent time with them in a coffee shop. And time with them in a coffee shop. And time with them in a coffee shop. And I just didn't I just didn't I just didn't like what I like what I like what I saw. It's like I've saw. It's like I've saw. It's like I've been watching this been watching this been watching this so-called college student so-called college student so-called college student mental health crisis mental health crisis up close, when up close, when the statistics when I first the statistics when I first the statistics when I first started were started were started were showing that in 2018, showing that in 2018, showing that in 2018, over 40% of over 40% of college students college students college students reported being reported being reported being too depressed too depressed too depressed to function to function to function most of the day, most of the day, most of the day, not just at not just at Yale, but across the Yale, but across the country. Over 60% country. Over 60% said they said they said they felt felt felt extremely anxious. extremely anxious. extremely anxious. More than one in 10 have More than one in 10 have More than one in 10 have seriously thought about seriously thought about seriously thought about suicide in the suicide in the suicide in the past 6 months. It past 6 months. It past 6 months. It was a staggering was a staggering was a staggering amount of suffering amount of suffering amount of suffering that was happening on that was happening on that was happening on campus. And this was campus. And this was campus. And this was happening in my happening in my happening in my community, right? I'm community, right? I'm community, right? I'm this friendly this friendly this friendly aunt who aunt who aunt who hangs out with hangs out with hangs out with students, students, students, trying to make trying to make trying to make this community great. And this community great. And this community great. And I just watched I just watched I just watched my students my students my students suffer from suffer from suffer from panic attacks or panic attacks or panic attacks or worse. And it worse. And it worse. And it made me made me made me think seriously think seriously think seriously about what my about what my about what my institution is doing from a institution is doing from a institution is doing from a mental health perspective. mental health perspective. mental health perspective. I thought that we as I thought that we as I thought that we as teachers teachers teachers assume that you assume that you assume that you students are studying, you students are studying, you students are studying, you know, computer science know, computer science know, computer science or Chaucer or whatever else or Chaucer or whatever else or Chaucer or whatever else we we we teach you. And how can that teach you. And how can that teach you. And how can that be true if be true if be true if over two-thirds of over two-thirds of over two-thirds of you are too anxious you are too anxious you are too anxious to function to function to function most of the day, most of the day, most of the day, or if you, your or if you, your or if you, your teammate, or teammate, or teammate, or your roommate are your roommate are your roommate are seriously considering seriously considering seriously considering suicide? There suicide? There suicide? There seemed to be seemed to be seemed to be a disconnect between a disconnect between what we expected what we expected what we expected from students and the from students and the from students and the actual level of actual level of actual level of suffering I suffering I suffering I saw in the community. So I saw in the community. So I saw in the community. So I just thought, "I just thought, "I just thought, "I have to act." As a have to act." As a have to act." As a boring psychologist, I boring psychologist, I boring psychologist, I had limited had limited had limited options for action. But options for action. But options for action. But I could teach a new I could teach a new I could teach a new course. And I already had a course. And I already had a course. And I already had a little experience in little experience in little experience in this area of ​​the science of this area of ​​the science of this area of ​​the science of happiness, or what happiness, or what happiness, or what psychologists call psychologists call psychologists call positive positive positive psychology. I psychology. I psychology. I worked with Marty worked with Marty worked with Marty Seligman, who is Seligman, who is Seligman, who is often considered a often considered a often considered a leader in the field. leader in the field. leader in the field. So I had some So I had some So I had some experience with that. So I experience with that. So I experience with that. So I thought, you know, thought, you know, thought, you know, let me let me let me just do a just do a just do a new introductory course. new introductory course. new introductory course. I'll just create a new I'll just create a new I'll just create a new course on this topic. But course on this topic. But course on this topic. But the difference in this course the difference in this course that I taught that I taught that I taught is that I is that I is that I wanted it to be wanted it to be wanted it to be practical. I wanted practical. I wanted practical. I wanted this to be a this to be a this to be a skills development course where skills development course where skills development course where students would learn students would learn students would learn strategies they strategies they strategies they could could could use use use if they were feeling if they were feeling if they were feeling exhausted or stressed, exhausted or stressed, exhausted or stressed, etc. However, it was a etc. However, it was a etc. However, it was a new course on campus, new course on campus, new course on campus, so I figured I would so I figured I would so I figured I would show up and there show up and there show up and there would be 40 students in the would be 40 students in the would be 40 students in the class, which is typical for a class, which is typical for a class, which is typical for a psychology course at psychology course at psychology course at Yale Yale Yale . I didn't . I didn't . I didn't expect that the only expect that the only expect that the only place where this could be place where this could be place where this could be taught on taught on taught on campus would be our campus would be our campus would be our concert hall. There concert hall. There concert hall. There was also a football was also a football was also a football stadium, but to be honest, a stadium, but to be honest, a football stadium in January is not the best place to not the best place to not the best place to hold classes hold classes hold classes twice a week, so twice a week, so twice a week, so yeah. Yes, this is a story. yeah. Yes, this is a story. yeah. Yes, this is a story. It really came from It really came from It really came from seeing seeing seeing this need on campus this need on campus this need on campus and realizing that we, and realizing that we, and realizing that we, as, I don't know, the as, I don't know, the as, I don't know, the president of the president of the president of the university, university, university, felt like we weren't felt like we weren't felt like we weren't doing our doing our doing our job. We just job. We just job. We just pretended everything was pretended everything was pretended everything was okay and kind of okay and kind of okay and kind of kept it to ourselves, kept it to ourselves, kept it to ourselves, but I really wanted to but I really wanted to but I really wanted to give the students give the students give the students skills they skills they skills they could use. could use. could use. So interesting. You know, it's So interesting. You know, it's So interesting. You know, it's funny; My late funny; My late funny; My late godfather was a godfather was a godfather was a close friend of close friend of close friend of Lorraine Siggins, who Lorraine Siggins, who Lorraine Siggins, who was was was the director of the director of the director of mental health at mental health at mental health at Yale for years Yale for years Yale for years , and I , and I , and I remember Lorraine remember Lorraine remember Lorraine saying at one saying at one saying at one point that point that point that more than more than more than half of the students in her office were students, and half of the students in her office were students, and half of the students in her office were students, and that one of them told that one of them told that one of them told her that he had mortgaged his her that he had mortgaged his her that he had mortgaged his childhood to childhood to childhood to go to Yale go to Yale . And then , you know, this , you know, this , you know, this realization of the stress that realization of the stress that realization of the stress that we put we put we put our young people through our young people through our young people through and the stress that they and the stress that they and the stress that they get is just get is just get is just overwhelming. You know, overwhelming. You know, overwhelming. You know, you're picking up on you're picking up on you're picking up on a point that I a point that I a point that I often try to often try to often try to make, which is that make, which is that make, which is that all this talk all this talk all this talk about happiness in the news about happiness in the news about happiness in the news and, you know, other and, you know, other and, you know, other places–that's not places–that's not places–that's not necessarily a good necessarily a good necessarily a good sign, is it? It sign, is it? It sign, is it? It reflects a certain reflects a certain reflects a certain underlying anxiety and underlying anxiety and underlying anxiety and unhappiness that I think unhappiness that I think unhappiness that I think says a lot about says a lot about says a lot about our times. Has our times. Has our times. Has this course changed? I this course changed? I this course changed? I mean, it's the initial mean, it's the initial mean, it's the initial push, but has it push, but has it push, but has it evolved? Have evolved? Have evolved? Have things improved? things improved? things improved? Yes, a little. One of the Yes, a little. One of the Yes, a little. One of the things that changed things that changed things that changed was the focus I had, was the focus I had, was the focus I had, right? It's nice right? It's nice right? It's nice to have a quarter of all to have a quarter of all to have a quarter of all Yale students Yale students Yale students in your in your in your audience, that you audience, that you audience, that you can see what can see what can see what works, what they works, what they works, what they resonate with, and what resonate with, and what resonate with, and what works less well. works less well. works less well. One of the things I One of the things I One of the things I hear from my students all the time is what hear from my students all the time is what they learned from the they learned from the course. I'm most course. I'm most course. I'm most interested in what interested in what interested in what strategies you're strategies you're strategies you're going to going to going to use? You've use? You've use? You've heard about all these different heard about all these different heard about all these different strategies, this strategies, this strategies, this list of different list of different list of different tools that you tools that you tools that you can can can use to use to use to feel better. Which ones feel better. Which ones do you actually use? Which ones do do you actually use? Which ones do you apply in you apply in you apply in your own life? And those your own life? And those your own life? And those strategies that I strategies that I strategies that I kept hearing these kept hearing these kept hearing these students students students use use use all the time were all the time were all the time were strategies that we strategies that we strategies that we had to had to had to regulate and regulate and regulate and navigate in navigate in navigate in internal dialogues, internal dialogues, internal dialogues, right? Things in right? Things in right? Things in your head. I'm not your head. I'm not your head. I'm not good enough. good enough. good enough. I'm ruining everything. I should I'm ruining everything. I should I'm ruining everything. I should do more. That do more. That do more. That voice of voice of voice of hustle culture that resonates in hustle culture that resonates in hustle culture that resonates in society and society and society and gets embedded in your gets embedded in your gets embedded in your head. This is something I head. This is something I head. This is something I think my students think my students think my students needed needed needed help with. So we help with. So we help with. So we talk a lot about talk a lot about talk a lot about strategies that you can strategies that you can strategies that you can use to use to use to develop more develop more develop more self-compassion, self-compassion, self-compassion, strategies that you can strategies that you can strategies that you can use to use to use to gain some gain some gain some psychological psychological psychological distance from the distance from the distance from the problems that arise problems that arise problems that arise in your life. And these in your life. And these in your life. And these were tools that were tools that I think my I think my I think my students students students used used used more and more. So the more and more. So the more and more. So the classes shifted classes shifted classes shifted to to to focus more on focus more on focus more on some of those things. I some of those things. I some of those things. I think when people think when people think when people hear about hear about hear about positive positive positive psychology work classically, psychology work classically, psychology work classically, they hear about they hear about they hear about things like meditation things like meditation things like meditation or writing a or writing a or writing a gratitude journal. gratitude journal. gratitude journal. And those things are great, but And those things are great, but And those things are great, but I think what my I think what my I think what my students really students really students really needed needed needed help with was, help with was, help with was, when I'm berating myself, how when I'm berating myself, how when I'm berating myself, how can I talk to can I talk to can I talk to myself in a healthier myself in a healthier myself in a healthier way? And it really way? And it really way? And it really resonated. resonated. resonated. So, basic So, basic So, basic cognitive cognitive behavioral therapy, behavioral therapy, behavioral therapy, basically. basically. basically. I mean, what I mean, what I mean, what we do in we do in we do in class is really the kind of class is really the kind of skill development that you skill development that you learn from a learn from a learn from a good therapist, good therapist, good therapist, right? Cognitive right? Cognitive behavioral therapy behavioral therapy behavioral therapy really changes your really changes your really changes your thinking patterns, thinking patterns, thinking patterns, changes your changes your changes your attitude towards your attitude towards your attitude towards your thinking patterns, thinking patterns, thinking patterns, finds ways to finds ways to finds ways to better regulate better regulate better regulate your emotions. These are your emotions. These are your emotions. These are functional functional functional tools that we tools that we tools that we teach in the classroom. And I teach in the classroom. And I teach in the classroom. And I think that's important. think that's important. think that's important. Sometimes, for certain Sometimes, for certain Sometimes, for certain life issues, you life issues, you life issues, you need an need an need an individual individual individual therapy session to gain therapy session to gain therapy session to gain these skills. But these these skills. But these these skills. But these skills are also...I don't skills are also...I don't skills are also...I don't want to say they're want to say they're want to say they're not difficult, because they're not difficult, because they're not difficult, because they're difficult to apply at the difficult to apply at the difficult to apply at the moment, but moment, but moment, but they're pretty simple. And they're pretty simple. And they're pretty simple. And that's one of the insights that's one of the insights that's one of the insights I've gained from I've gained from I've gained from teaching this is this: teaching this is this: teaching this is this: we should be teaching we should be teaching we should be teaching this earlier and this earlier and this earlier and earlier, because earlier, because earlier, because none of this is none of this is none of this is high-level science. high-level science. high-level science. For example, these basic For example, these basic emotion regulation strategies, I emotion regulation strategies, I think we should be think we should be think we should be teaching right in teaching right in teaching right in middle school, but middle school, but middle school, but maybe even maybe even maybe even earlier. earlier. earlier. I mean, I mean, I mean, Yale University has done a Yale University has done a Yale University has done a great job great job great job of implementing of implementing of implementing this kind of this kind of this kind of emotional skills development in emotional skills development in emotional skills development in elementary schools, elementary schools, elementary schools, right? right? right? And I think this may And I think this may And I think this may happen sooner happen sooner happen sooner and earlier. and earlier. and earlier. Teaching this Teaching this Teaching this course opened up course opened up course opened up so many interesting so many interesting so many interesting opportunities that I did opportunities that I did opportunities that I did n't expect, but n't expect, but n't expect, but one of the most one of the most one of the most exciting was exciting was exciting was working with Sesame working with Sesame working with Sesame Workshop, the group that Workshop, the group that Workshop, the group that runs Sesame Street runs Sesame Street , and thinking about how to , and thinking about how to , and thinking about how to bring these strategies bring these strategies bring these strategies to young children. And to young children. And to young children. And I realized, "Oh my God, I realized, "Oh my God, I realized, "Oh my God, one of the strategies one of the strategies one of the strategies I teach my students I teach my students I teach my students is this idea of is this idea of is this idea of emotional labeling, emotional labeling, emotional labeling, which is just giving a which is just giving a which is just giving a label to what you're label to what you're label to what you're feeling. I feeling. I feeling. I feel feel feel disappointed. I disappointed. I disappointed. I feel feel feel depressed. I am depressed. I am depressed. I am sad. "I feel sad. "I feel sad. "I feel lonely." Whatever lonely." Whatever lonely." Whatever it is. One word it is. One word it is. One word can help you can help you can help you understand exactly what you're understand exactly what you're understand exactly what you're feeling, and also feeling, and also feeling, and also help you help you help you understand how to understand how to understand how to fix it. "A" for fix it. "A" for loneliness is quite loneliness is quite different from different from different from correcting yourself when you're correcting yourself when you're correcting yourself when you're feeling feeling feeling down. But if down. But if down. But if you just think, “Oh, you just think, “Oh, you just think, “Oh, I feel bad,” then you I feel bad,” then you I feel bad,” then you don’t know what to do. don’t know what to do. don’t know what to do. But this is a strategy But this is a strategy But this is a strategy that can be taught to that can be taught to that can be taught to a child between the a child between the a child between the ages of three and five. ages of three and five. ages of three and five. Maybe not with big Maybe not with big Maybe not with big words like " words like " stunned" and " stunned" and " disappointed," but you disappointed," but you disappointed," but you can try. can try. can try. In fact, Elmo In fact, Elmo In fact, Elmo taught children about taught children about taught children about disappointment. This was disappointment. This was disappointment. This was one of the words one of the words one of the words Elmo was learning. So if Elmo was learning. So if Elmo was learning. So if we could just we could just we could just explain this earlier, explain this earlier, explain this earlier, we would have given people the we would have given people the we would have given people the tools they tools they tools they could could could use. use. use. Well, you know, my Well, you know, my Well, you know, my five-year-old daughter five-year-old daughter five-year-old daughter taught me at the time, and I taught me at the time, and I taught me at the time, and I got this education got this education got this education very late, maybe, very late, maybe, very late, maybe, but still. So but still. So but still. So thank you. We humans have a very thank you. We humans have a very thank you. We humans have a very poor understanding of what poor understanding of what poor understanding of what will make us will make us will make us happy, and happy, and happy, and accordingly we make accordingly we make accordingly we make poor choices. And you, poor choices. And you, poor choices. And you, Lori, are not at all Lori, are not at all Lori, are not at all shy about pointing out shy about pointing out shy about pointing out what people do what people do what people do wrong in their wrong in their wrong in their pursuit of happiness. And pursuit of happiness. And pursuit of happiness. And you know, while we you know, while we you know, while we have you, can you give have you, can you give have you, can you give us some quick us some quick us some quick tips on what tips on what tips on what not to do? not to do? not to do? Yes, because I look at a Yes, because I look at a Yes, because I look at a bunch of students, it seems like bunch of students, it seems like . I'll give you the one that . I'll give you the one that . I'll give you the one that my students my students my students get wrong get wrong get wrong most often, which is the most often, which is the most often, which is the connection between money connection between money connection between money and happiness. Most and happiness. Most and happiness. Most of you are here at a of you are here at a of you are here at a place like place like place like Dartmouth College Dartmouth College Dartmouth College because you want to make because you want to make because you want to make a lot of money a lot of money a lot of money later, and later, and later, and it turns out that there is a it turns out that there is a it turns out that there is a connection between money connection between money connection between money and happiness, but this and happiness, but this and happiness, but this connection only exists connection only exists connection only exists when you when you when you really don't have any money. really don't have any money. really don't have any money. If you are currently living If you are currently living If you are currently living below the poverty line and I below the poverty line and I below the poverty line and I give you more money give you more money , yes, it will , yes, it will , yes, it will make your life much easier. make your life much easier. make your life much easier. You will be You will be You will be happier. But this happier. But this happier. But this link between money link between money link between money and happiness seems to be and happiness seems to be and happiness seems to be leveling out. leveling out. leveling out. Researchers Researchers Researchers argue about exactly argue about exactly argue about exactly where it where it where it aligns. In a very aligns. In a very aligns. In a very famous article from 2010, famous article from 2010, famous article from 2010, people believed people believed people believed it would level out it would level out it would level out at around at around at around $75,000. In today's $75,000. In today's $75,000. In today's money, that's probably money, that's probably money, that's probably equivalent to equivalent to equivalent to about about about $110,000. People $110,000. People $110,000. People argue about argue about argue about whether the slope is completely flat after this whether the slope is completely flat after this whether the slope is completely flat after this point point point or whether it or whether it or whether it increases slightly over increases slightly over increases slightly over time, but the bottom line is time, but the bottom line is that getting that getting that getting more more more money after a certain money after a certain money after a certain point just doesn't point just doesn't point just doesn't help your help your help your happiness much. And that's something that, in happiness much. And that's something that, in happiness much. And that's something that, in my opinion, is very difficult my opinion, is very difficult my opinion, is very difficult to take into account. I look to take into account. I look to take into account. I look at the students' room. at the students' room. at the students' room. and I imagine that some of and I imagine that some of and I imagine that some of you are retired and you are you are retired and you are you are retired and you are considering various considering various considering various job offers. job offers. job offers. You may have been You may have been You may have been lucky enough to get lucky enough to get lucky enough to get a few offers, and a few offers, and a few offers, and I think the first thing you I think the first thing you I think the first thing you look at is the look at is the look at is the salary. And you salary. And you salary. And you hesitate: “Oh, which one should hesitate: “Oh, which one should hesitate: “Oh, which one should I choose? And I choose? And I choose? And maybe I'll get an maybe I'll get an maybe I'll get an extra $5,000 extra $5,000 extra $5,000 or something." And it wo or something." And it wo or something." And it wo n't matter at all n't matter at all n't matter at all . What will . What will . What will matter? What matter? What matter? What will your will your will your social connections be like at social connections be like at social connections be like at work? One of the work? One of the work? One of the most important most important most important predictors of happiness predictors of happiness predictors of happiness in general and happiness at in general and happiness at in general and happiness at work is the work is the yes or no answer to the yes or no answer to the yes or no answer to the question, do you have a question, do you have a question, do you have a best friend at best friend at best friend at work? Another work? Another work? Another important predictor of important predictor of important predictor of your happiness at your happiness at your happiness at work is whether work is whether work is whether you have a lot of free time. you have a lot of free time. you have a lot of free time. This is a great piece by Ashley This is a great piece by Ashley This is a great piece by Ashley Willans from Willans from Willans from Harvard Harvard Harvard Business School on the power of so- Business School on the power of so- Business School on the power of so- called time called time called time abundance. It's a feeling abundance. It's a feeling that you feel that you feel that you feel rich in time. It is rich in time. It is rich in time. It is much more important much more important much more important to have temporal to have temporal to have temporal wealth than wealth than wealth than monetary wealth. It's monetary wealth. It's monetary wealth. It's even interesting that on even interesting that on even interesting that on low incomes, low incomes, low incomes, actually, because actually, because actually, because we talk to we talk to we talk to a lot of people on a lot of people on a lot of people on public public public policy, Ashley has policy, Ashley has policy, Ashley has been pushing the policy been pushing the policy been pushing the policy that one way to that one way to that one way to solve the solve the solve the happiness crisis, like so many happiness crisis, like so many happiness crisis, like so many other crises that other crises that other crises that occur in occur in occur in low low low income people, is to income people, is to income people, is to give give give low low low income people more time, income people more time, income people more time, right? Because if you right? Because if you right? Because if you think about what think about what think about what happens if you're happens if you're happens if you're low income, you low income, you low income, you drive Uber, or drive Uber, or drive Uber, or maybe you don't even have a maybe you don't even have a maybe you don't even have a car, so you car, so you car, so you drive 2 hours to work, drive 2 hours to work, drive 2 hours to work, etc. They etc. They etc. They did it, if we did it, if we did it, if we could solve the could solve the could solve the time crisis, we could time crisis, we could time crisis, we could help them help them help them psychologically and psychologically and psychologically and maybe even maybe even maybe even financially in the financially in the financially in the future. But we do future. But we do future. But we do n't think so. We don't n't think so. We don't n't think so. We don't think: If I want think: If I want think: If I want to be happier, to be happier, to be happier, let me let me let me find a life that gives find a life that gives find a life that gives me a lot more me a lot more me a lot more time. We just time. We just time. We just think: money, money, think: money, money, think: money, money, money, achievement, money, achievement, money, achievement, achievement, achievement, achievement, achievement, and that won't achievement, and that won't achievement, and that won't move things from a move things from a move things from a dead end in the way dead end in the way dead end in the way we think. we think. we think. So money is not So money is not So money is not unimportant, but it is also not as unimportant, but it is also not as unimportant, but it is also not as important as important as important as people think. people think. people think. It's so insidious to the It's so insidious to the It's so insidious to the workings of our minds, is workings of our minds, is workings of our minds, is n't it? Because it is n't it? Because it is n't it? Because it is important for a certain time important for a certain time . For example, if you're a . For example, if you're a . For example, if you're a student and you're not student and you're not student and you're not making any money, making any money, making any money, or like me, when I was a or like me, when I was a or like me, when I was a poor graduate student, you poor graduate student, you know, in know, in know, in graduate school I was making graduate school I was making graduate school I was making enough enough enough to not be below the to not be below the to not be below the poverty line, but more poverty line, but more poverty line, but more money definitely made money definitely made money definitely made me happier. I have me happier. I have me happier. I have n't been to that n't been to that n't been to that threshold yet. So you threshold yet. So you threshold yet. So you internalize this internalize this reward relationship. You reward relationship. You think: oh my God, think: oh my God, think: oh my God, more money, more more money, more more money, more happiness. But then, when happiness. But then, when happiness. But then, when it levels out, you it levels out, you it levels out, you stop stop stop realizing that it is realizing that it is realizing that it is . And what . And what . And what happens when you happens when you happens when you get more get more get more money and it doesn't move money and it doesn't move money and it doesn't move things along? You don't think, things along? You don't think, things along? You don't think, "Oh, I must have been "Oh, I must have been "Oh, I must have been wrong about this wrong about this wrong about this connection between money connection between money connection between money and happiness." You just and happiness." You just and happiness." You just think, “Oh, I was think, “Oh, I was think, “Oh, I was wrong about wrong about wrong about the amount of money the amount of money the amount of money I needed. I I needed. I I needed. I need a lot need a lot need a lot more money to more money to more money to be happy." be happy." be happy." In fact, one of In fact, one of In fact, one of my favorite my favorite my favorite surveys that Sonia surveys that Sonia surveys that Sonia Lubomirska cites in Lubomirska cites in Lubomirska cites in her book is where her book is where her book is where you you you ask people who ask people who ask people who make make make $30,000, is $30,000, is $30,000, is that enough for happiness? These that enough for happiness? These that enough for happiness? These people say, "No." people say, "No." people say, "No." They say, "Okay, They say, "Okay, They say, "Okay, how much money would you how much money would you how much money would you make if you make if you make if you made that amount, made that amount, made that amount, just be just be just be happy." And that was happy." And that was happy." And that was many years ago, many years ago, many years ago, but people who but people who but people who make make make $30,000 say, " $30,000 say, " If I could just If I could just If I could just get $50,000 get $50,000 get $50,000 and I'd just be and I'd just be and I'd just be happy, I'd happy, I'd happy, I'd never never never need another need another need another penny." But penny." But penny." But you do the same you do the same you do the same survey with people survey with people survey with people who make who make who make $100,000, you ask $100,000, you ask $100,000, you ask them, "Is them, "Is them, "Is that enough?" They say: " that enough?" They say: " No". You say: " No". You say: " How much do you need?" How much do you need?" » These people say, “ » These people say, “ I need I need I need $250,000 to be $250,000 to be $250,000 to be happy.” “Now I happy.” “Now I happy.” “Now I look at the smart look at the smart look at the smart students at students at students at Dartmouth Dartmouth Dartmouth who who who can do math in their can do math in their can do math in their heads, and you realize: heads, and you realize: heads, and you realize: wait, it’s not about wait, it’s not about wait, it’s not about reaching a reaching a reaching a goal. It's like a goal. It's like a goal. It's like a ratio, ratio, ratio, the difference between what the difference between what the difference between what you think you you think you you think you need and what need and what need and what you have increases as you have increases as you have increases as you get more you get more you get more money. They don't money. They don't money. They don't get smaller, do they get smaller, do they get smaller, do they ? Because I think that's the ? Because I think that's the ? Because I think that's the insidious thing about insidious thing about insidious thing about money: we don't money: we don't money: we don't realize that, "Oh, realize that, "Oh, realize that, "Oh, I was wrong. I guess I was wrong. I guess I was wrong. I guess I need something I need something I need something else. We think, “It’s else. We think, “It’s else. We think, “It’s still money. I still money. I still money. I just need just need just need a lot more than a lot more than a lot more than I think." “It’s time to I think." “It’s time to I think." “It’s time to take a short take a short take a short break, but break, but break, but Darin and I will return Darin and I will return Darin and I will return to further conversation to further conversation to further conversation when the when the when the Happiness Lab returns Happiness Lab returns Happiness Lab returns in a moment. So, in a moment. So, in a moment. So, pursuing happiness pursuing happiness pursuing happiness through money may through money may through money may not quite work. This is not quite work. This is not quite work. This is one of the wrong one of the wrong one of the wrong aspirations, isn't it? aspirations, isn't it? aspirations, isn't it? What should we do? How can we What should we do? How can we What should we do? How can we strive for this? strive for this? strive for this? Yes. Well, here's one thing that I Yes. Well, here's one thing that I Yes. Well, here's one thing that I think you'll like, given think you'll like, given think you'll like, given your focus on the 18th your focus on the 18th your focus on the 18th century, which is century, which is century, which is : : : another thing we get another thing we get another thing we get wrong about wrong about wrong about happiness: we think happiness: we think happiness: we think happiness is about us. happiness is about us. happiness is about us. It concerns me, It concerns me, It concerns me, me, me. And I think that's me, me. And I think that's me, me. And I think that's especially especially especially true in today's true in today's true in today's individualistic individualistic individualistic culture where we culture where we culture where we find ourselves. And in a find ourselves. And in a find ourselves. And in a school like this, honestly, school like this, honestly, school like this, honestly, many of you many of you many of you students are here students are here students are here because you're focused on your because you're focused on your because you're focused on your studies, on what studies, on what studies, on what you need, and on you need, and on you need, and on improving improving improving your knowledge. Isn't what your knowledge. Isn't what your knowledge. Isn't what you're doing you're doing you're doing helping the country? What are helping the country? What are helping the country? What are you doing to you doing to you doing to help the world? What are help the world? What are help the world? What are you doing to you doing to you doing to help your help your help your brothers and sisters? It brothers and sisters? It brothers and sisters? It was like you, you, you. And was like you, you, you. And was like you, you, you. And research just research just research just keeps showing keeps showing keeps showing us that this is not the path to us that this is not the path to us that this is not the path to happiness. And I think that's what happiness. And I think that's what happiness. And I think that's what modern modern modern culture gets so culture gets so culture gets so wrong. If you wrong. If you wrong. If you go...On TikTok, you'll go...On TikTok, you'll go...On TikTok, you'll see something somewhere about see something somewhere about see something somewhere about self-care, about self-care, about self-care, about how to pamper how to pamper how to pamper yourself or "me, me, me," yourself or "me, me, me," yourself or "me, me, me," right? But if you right? But if you right? But if you look at look at look at happiness research, you happiness research, you happiness research, you 'll see that this is not what 'll see that this is not what 'll see that this is not what predicts predicts predicts people's happiness. Happiness is an people's happiness. Happiness is an people's happiness. Happiness is an orientation towards others. orientation towards others. orientation towards others. So, So, So, controlling for income, controlling for income, controlling for income, people who donate people who donate people who donate more money to more money to more money to charity are charity are charity are happier than those who happier than those who happier than those who self- self- self- report report report donating nothing. The same goes for donating nothing. The same goes for volunteering, volunteering, controlling the controlling the controlling the amount of free amount of free amount of free time you have. time you have. time you have. It seems that doing It seems that doing It seems that doing things for others makes things for others makes things for others makes you happier. These are you happier. These are you happier. These are correlations, so you correlations, so you correlations, so you might think, "Well, might think, "Well, might think, "Well, maybe it's that, you maybe it's that, you maybe it's that, you know, doing nice know, doing nice know, doing nice things for other people things for other people things for other people makes you happy," makes you happy," makes you happy," but it could also be but it could also be but it could also be that if you're that if you're that if you're happy, you do happy, you do happy, you do nice things for other nice things for other nice things for other people. And we know that people. And we know that people. And we know that this is an effect. This this is an effect. This this is an effect. This is called the is called the is called the “ “ “ feel good, do good feel good, do good feel good, do good ” effect. If you are in a ” effect. If you are in a ” effect. If you are in a good mood, you good mood, you good mood, you do nicer do nicer do nicer things for other people. things for other people. things for other people. But there are also But there are also But there are also studies that, studies that, studies that, you know, are really nice. you know, are really nice. you know, are really nice. They get people to They get people to They get people to do nice things do nice things do nice things for others and then for others and then for others and then check what check what check what happens to your happens to your happens to your happiness. And you happiness. And you happiness. And you find that even find that even find that even when you're when you're when you're forced to do something forced to do something forced to do something nice for other nice for other nice for other people, people, people, you feel better afterwards. you feel better afterwards. you feel better afterwards. And so, I think, this is what And so, I think, this is what And so, I think, this is what we constantly get we constantly get we constantly get wrong in wrong in wrong in modern times. And as I modern times. And as I modern times. And as I said, Darren, this is something that said, Darren, this is something that said, Darren, this is something that I think you'll I think you'll I think you'll appreciate, because the ancestors, appreciate, because the ancestors, appreciate, because the ancestors, you know, they were good you know, they were good you know, they were good at at at individual individual individual pleasure, but they pleasure, but they pleasure, but they also understood that also understood that also understood that even the very even the very even the very concept of happiness was about concept of happiness was about everyone's happiness. And this is what everyone's happiness. And this is what we are sorely we are sorely we are sorely lacking today. lacking today. lacking today. So, one thing that So, one thing that So, one thing that becomes very obvious is that becomes very obvious is that becomes very obvious is that when people in the 18th when people in the 18th when people in the 18th century talk century talk century talk about the pursuit of happiness, about the pursuit of happiness, about the pursuit of happiness, they don't they don't they don't mean the pursuit of mean the pursuit of mean the pursuit of quantities of quantities of quantities of pleasure. They mean the pleasure. They mean the pursuit of a pursuit of a life well lived. And life well lived. And life well lived. And to access this to access this to access this , they , they , they draw very deeply draw very deeply draw very deeply on wisdom traditions. on wisdom traditions. on wisdom traditions. So, in their So, in their So, in their case, it's Greek and case, it's Greek and case, it's Greek and Roman philosophy, Roman philosophy, Roman philosophy, as well as religious as well as religious as well as religious traditions, right? And traditions, right? And traditions, right? And I... While you were talking, I I... While you were talking, I I... While you were talking, I was thinking about this wonderful was thinking about this wonderful was thinking about this wonderful Chinese proverb, Chinese proverb, Chinese proverb, and I don't quite and I don't quite understand it correctly, but it goes understand it correctly, but it goes something like, something like, something like, if you want to be if you want to be if you want to be happy for an hour, happy for an hour, happy for an hour, take a nap. If you want take a nap. If you want take a nap. If you want to be happy for a to be happy for a to be happy for a while...a day, go while...a day, go while...a day, go fishing. And if you fishing. And if you fishing. And if you want to be want to be want to be happy all your life, happy all your life, happy all your life, then help then help then help others. And that becomes the others. And that becomes the others. And that becomes the way that so way that so way that so many of the world's many of the world's many of the world's wisdom and spiritual wisdom and spiritual wisdom and spiritual traditions have, traditions have, traditions have, you know, profound lessons you know, profound lessons you know, profound lessons about how to pursue about how to pursue about how to pursue happiness built into happiness built into happiness built into them. And I heard you them. And I heard you them. And I heard you say, a little bit like say, a little bit like say, a little bit like Jonathan Haidt Jonathan Haidt Jonathan Haidt talking about talking about talking about modern truth and modern truth and modern truth and ancient wisdom, that, ancient wisdom, that, ancient wisdom, that, you know, a big you know, a big you know, a big part of what part of what part of what positive psychologists do is to positive psychologists do is to confirm confirm or validate or validate or validate insights that we already insights that we already insights that we already know. But they know. But they know. But they simply gave them a simply gave them a simply gave them a modern scientific modern scientific modern scientific imprimatur, which is imprimatur, which is imprimatur, which is important, but important, but important, but nevertheless, the knowledge itself nevertheless, the knowledge itself nevertheless, the knowledge itself may not be new may not be new . . . Yes. And I think that's Yes. And I think that's Yes. And I think that's really important really important really important to do, right? I to do, right? I to do, right? I think my think my think my science hat is science hat is science hat is sometimes shy, don't you sometimes shy, don't you sometimes shy, don't you ? Because it's like we, ? Because it's like we, ? Because it's like we, positive psychologists, positive psychologists, positive psychologists, psychologists and psychologists and behavioral scientists in general behavioral scientists in general , have gone out and , have gone out and , have gone out and tested all these tested all these tested all these things that scientists have been things that scientists have been things that scientists have been talking about, you know, since talking about, you know, since talking about, you know, since Aristotle, and, oh Aristotle, and, oh Aristotle, and, oh my God, it turns out my God, it turns out that habits that are that habits that are that habits that are really good to really good to really good to form, or doing form, or doing form, or doing good things for good things for good things for other people, make other people, make other people, make you happy. you happy. you happy. Awareness and Awareness and Awareness and presence are presence are presence are wonderful. People have been saying wonderful. People have been saying wonderful. People have been saying this for thousands of years, this for thousands of years, this for thousands of years, so on the one hand, so on the one hand, so on the one hand, it's like modern science it's like modern science , which is just showing , which is just showing , which is just showing us what these people have us what these people have us what these people have always said, and what always said, and what always said, and what is now true. But I is now true. But I is now true. But I think it's important to think it's important to think it's important to do this because it didn't do this because it didn't do this because it didn't necessarily have to be necessarily have to be necessarily have to be that way, and sometimes old that way, and sometimes old that way, and sometimes old traditions traditions traditions were just were just were just wrong. wrong. wrong. Think about your Think about your Think about your favorite old favorite old favorite old tradition, you tradition, you tradition, you realize that some of realize that some of realize that some of them we just don't them we just don't them we just don't follow in the same way follow in the same way follow in the same way today. And so today. And so today. And so I think it's really I think it's really I think it's really important to ask the important to ask the important to ask the question, are we doing question, are we doing question, are we doing this right? And sometimes, this right? And sometimes, this right? And sometimes, when we look, we when we look, we when we look, we realize we're doing realize we're doing realize we're doing it wrong. Hmm, this is it wrong. Hmm, this is it wrong. Hmm, this is n't so much an ancient n't so much an ancient n't so much an ancient tradition as tradition as tradition as another thing that's another thing that's another thing that's really popular in really popular in really popular in culture right now, and it's just culture right now, and it's just culture right now, and it's just driving me crazy - this driving me crazy - this TikTok trend about TikTok trend about TikTok trend about manifesting. All you manifesting. All you manifesting. All you students are nodding, students are nodding, students are nodding, like, "Oh, I just want to like, "Oh, I just want to like, "Oh, I just want to get good get good get good grades this grades this grades this semester, so I'm semester, so I'm semester, so I'm just going to just going to just going to manifest it. I'm manifest it. I'm manifest it. I'm just going to just going to just going to visualize it, okay?" visualize it, okay?" visualize it, okay?" It turns out that it's It turns out that it's It turns out that it's not just that not just that not just that the demonstration is the demonstration is the demonstration is neutral or that neutral or that neutral or that it doesn't work. It it doesn't work. It it doesn't work. It actively forces what actively forces what actively forces what you want you want you want away. How does this away. How does this away. How does this happen? Well, it happen? Well, it happen? Well, it happens happens happens through an interesting through an interesting through an interesting trick of the mind. This trick of the mind. This trick of the mind. This happens because of how happens because of how happens because of how your mind your mind your mind imagines different imagines different imagines different rewards and how rewards and how rewards and how your reward system works your reward system works your reward system works . So, . So, . So, let's say I want to let's say I want to let's say I want to get in shape, right? That's what get in shape, right? That's what get in shape, right? That's what I was thinking. I I was thinking. I I was thinking. I try to go with try to go with try to go with my trainer once a my trainer once a my trainer once a week. I want to get a week. I want to get a week. I want to get a little fitter, little fitter, little fitter, right? So I manifest it right? So I manifest it . I think something . I think something . I think something like, “Oh, how like, “Oh, how like, “Oh, how great it would be if I was in great it would be if I was in great it would be if I was in shape. "My God, my shape. "My God, my shape. "My God, my clothes would fit better and clothes would fit better and clothes would fit better and I would have stronger I would have stronger I would have stronger muscles." I vividly imagine muscles." I vividly imagine muscles." I vividly imagine that I have already received that I have already received that I have already received the reward, that I have already the reward, that I have already the reward, that I have already put in all the necessary put in all the necessary put in all the necessary work, and I already have work, and I already have work, and I already have this good thing. And the this good thing. And the this good thing. And the interesting thing about our interesting thing about our interesting thing about our minds is that when we minds is that when we minds is that when we imagine things very imagine things very imagine things very carefully, there's a part of carefully, there's a part of carefully, there's a part of our brain that our brain that our brain that thinks we've already thinks we've already thinks we've already got it. There is a great got it. There is a great got it. There is a great study by Gabriele study by Gabriele study by Gabriele Muwig and her colleagues that Muwig and her colleagues that Muwig and her colleagues that tests this tests this tests this directly on food. directly on food. directly on food. He suggests you either He suggests you either He suggests you either imagine imagine imagine carefully placing a 25 carefully placing a 25 carefully placing a 25 cent piece into a slot as if you cent piece into a slot as if you cent piece into a slot as if you were going to do the laundry, or were going to do the laundry, or were going to do the laundry, or imagine imagine imagine slowly eating slowly eating slowly eating one M&M's at a time. And you one M&M's at a time. And you one M&M's at a time. And you do this for a while. do this for a while. do this for a while. And then the experiment is And then the experiment is And then the experiment is you you you go out and there's a go out and there's a go out and there's a bowl of M&M's. And the question is bowl of M&M's. And the question is bowl of M&M's. And the question is , how many M&M's do you , how many M&M's do you , how many M&M's do you eat? And you eat? And you eat? And you find that when you've find that when you've find that when you've already imagined yourself already imagined yourself already imagined yourself eating all those M eating all those M &M's very carefully, the last thing you &M's very carefully, the last thing you &M's very carefully, the last thing you want to do is want to do is want to do is eat more M&M's. It's as if you've eat more M&M's. It's as if you've eat more M&M's. It's as if you've imagined what this imagined what this imagined what this reward will be, so reward will be, so reward will be, so you don't you don't you don't need it anymore. You don't need it anymore. You don't need it anymore. You don't need to take any need to take any need to take any action to action to action to get it. And get it. And get it. And research by Gabriele research by Gabriele research by Gabriele Muwig and her colleagues Muwig and her colleagues Muwig and her colleagues shows that the same thing shows that the same thing shows that the same thing happens when it happens when it happens when it manifests. If you manifests. If you manifests. If you manifest, “Oh God, I manifest, “Oh God, I manifest, “Oh God, I want to get want to get want to get great grades,” great grades,” great grades,” part of your brain part of your brain part of your brain thinks you got thinks you got thinks you got those great grades. those great grades. those great grades. So you don't spend So you don't spend So you don't spend as much time as much time as much time studying. You don't studying. You don't studying. You don't work that work that work that hard. She hard. She hard. She finds that students finds that students finds that students who show who show who show improvements in improvements in improvements in fitness actually fitness actually fitness actually go to the gym less often go to the gym less often go to the gym less often . So it's . So it's . So it's not just that not just that not just that manifesting is manifesting is manifesting is like, "Oh, this is like, "Oh, this is like, "Oh, this is n't working. "It's kind of like n't working. "It's kind of like n't working. "It's kind of like courtship." This is courtship." This is courtship." This is really bad. But the really bad. But the really bad. But the good thing is that there is a way good thing is that there is a way good thing is that there is a way to do it better. to do it better. to do it better. Gabriel Oettingen Gabriel Oettingen Gabriel Oettingen shows how this works, shows how this works, shows how this works, which is, in addition to which is, in addition to which is, in addition to thinking very vividly thinking very vividly thinking very vividly about the reward, you about the reward, you about the reward, you also think, "Hmm, also think, "Hmm, also think, "Hmm, what obstacles what obstacles what obstacles are getting me to this are getting me to this are getting me to this reward?" And you reward?" And you reward?" And you imagine it. And you imagine it. And you imagine it. And you think, "Oh, I do think, "Oh, I do think, "Oh, I do n't have any gym n't have any gym n't have any gym shorts, or I shorts, or I shorts, or I don't have any books to don't have any books to don't have any books to study for, or something like that, there are study for, or something like that, there are four four parties this weekend and I won't have parties this weekend and I won't have parties this weekend and I won't have time to read the time to read the time to read the book I book I book I need to read." need to read." need to read." It makes you think It makes you think It makes you think about how you can about how you can about how you can overcome these overcome these overcome these obstacles. You can put obstacles. You can put this this manifestation to good use. It's manifestation to good use. It's manifestation to good use. It's just that the TikTok version is just that the TikTok version is just that the TikTok version is leading us astray. leading us astray. leading us astray. So the whole point is that So the whole point is that sometimes science goes out sometimes science goes out and studies and studies and studies things that are in the things that are in the things that are in the public domain, public domain, public domain, that scientists that scientists that scientists have been thinking about for have been thinking about for have been thinking about for a while, and they a while, and they a while, and they say, "Yeah, everyone was right say, "Yeah, everyone was right say, "Yeah, everyone was right ." But sometimes we ." But sometimes we ." But sometimes we look back and realize look back and realize look back and realize that popular wisdom is that popular wisdom is that popular wisdom is simply wrong, and this is where simply wrong, and this is where simply wrong, and this is where , in my opinion , in my opinion , science can , science can , science can help us get help us get help us get on a better path. on a better path. on a better path. This is great, and it's the This is great, and it's the This is great, and it's the perfect transition to where perfect transition to where perfect transition to where I want to I want to I want to go next. go next. go next. Last fall, in Last fall, in Last fall, in October, Professor October, Professor October, Professor Danny Blanchflower, Danny Blanchflower, Danny Blanchflower, who is here in the room, and who is here in the room, and who is here in the room, and his colleagues his colleagues his colleagues organized this organized this organized this wonderful conference with the wonderful conference with the United Nations United Nations on the on the on the youth well-being crisis. And youth well-being crisis. And youth well-being crisis. And as Danny and as Danny and as Danny and others like Gene others like Gene others like Gene Twenge and Jonathan Twenge and Jonathan Twenge and Jonathan Haidt, who were also Haidt, who were also Haidt, who were also at the conference, have shown, this at the conference, have shown, this at the conference, have shown, this crisis is real. And what crisis is real. And what crisis is real. And what 's more, it's 's more, it's 's more, it's showing up in the data at the very showing up in the data at the very showing up in the data at the very time when time when time when the mobile phone the mobile phone the mobile phone is becoming widely is becoming widely is becoming widely available. So I'd like to available. So I'd like to available. So I'd like to know know know if you'd like if you'd like if you'd like to comment, and I to comment, and I to comment, and I hope you're not hope you're not hope you're not sponsored by Meta. sponsored by Meta. sponsored by Meta. I hope we're not I hope we're not I hope we're not sponsored by Meta, but there's sponsored by Meta, but there's sponsored by Meta, but there's one thing: we have one thing: we have one thing: we have Meta sponsorship, but we do Meta sponsorship, but we do Meta sponsorship, but we do n't. Yes. Um, I think it's n't. Yes. Um, I think it's n't. Yes. Um, I think it's important, when it important, when it important, when it comes to comes to comes to technology, technology, technology, social media, and social media, and social media, and cell phones, and cell phones, and cell phones, and how they how they how they affect our affect our affect our well-being, well-being, well-being, to remember that to remember that to remember that cell phones cell phones are just a tool. are just a tool. are just a tool. It's just technology. It's just technology. It's just technology. We can We can We can use it in use it in use it in different ways. We can different ways. We can different ways. We can use our use our use our phones to phones to phones to call a friend call a friend , donate money , donate money , donate money to a good cause, to a good cause, to a good cause, use a use a meditation app. It can be meditation app. It can be used for used for used for good deeds. The good deeds. The good deeds. The only problem is only problem is only problem is that we are not inclined that we are not inclined that we are not inclined to use it to use it to use it for good deeds. for good deeds. for good deeds. Basically, all the different Basically, all the different Basically, all the different strategies I strategies I strategies I talk about for how to talk about for how to talk about for how to feel feel feel happier, if you happier, if you happier, if you look at how look at how look at how we tend to we tend to we tend to use use use technology, it technology, it technology, it leads us astray. leads us astray. leads us astray. Let's take the one I Let's take the one I Let's take the one I find most find most find most ironic, namely ironic, namely ironic, namely social connections. social connections. social connections. All available All available All available research on happy research on happy research on happy people shows that people shows that people shows that happy people are more happy people are more happy people are more social. The quickest social. The quickest social. The quickest intervention, other than intervention, other than intervention, other than getting a dog, that getting a dog, that getting a dog, that you can do to you can do to you can do to become happier become happier become happier is to make a friend, is to make a friend, is to make a friend, talk to a person, talk to a person, talk to a person, or or or connect socially in some way. connect socially in some way. connect socially in some way. Our phones were Our phones were Our phones were literally built literally built literally built for this. This is a phone. The for this. This is a phone. The for this. This is a phone. The whole purpose of a telephone is whole purpose of a telephone is to call to call to call someone. How do we someone. How do we someone. How do we usually usually usually spend it? spend it? spend it? Looking at him, Looking at him, Looking at him, ignoring the people in ignoring the people in ignoring the people in real life real life real life around us. The deep around us. The deep around us. The deep irony is that these irony is that these irony is that these tools that were supposed to tools that were supposed to tools that were supposed to help us help us help us connect often connect often connect often help us not help us not help us not connect. And there's connect. And there's connect. And there's great work by great work by great work by people like Liz Dunn and people like Liz Dunn and people like Liz Dunn and others that shows others that shows others that shows how much our phones how much our phones how much our phones steal our attention steal our attention steal our attention when we're around when we're around when we're around other people. Liz does other people. Liz does other people. Liz does this great this great this great study where she study where she study where she puts people in a puts people in a puts people in a waiting room. You know, waiting room. You know, waiting room. You know, imagine imagine imagine Darrin and I sitting on Darrin and I sitting on Darrin and I sitting on stage, we're in the waiting room together stage, we're in the waiting room together stage, we're in the waiting room together . We could . We could . We could just just just talk to talk to talk to each other, but if we each other, but if we each other, but if we have phones, what are we have phones, what are we have phones, what are we going to do? We going to do? We going to do? We will not communicate will not communicate will not communicate with each other. We with each other. We with each other. We will look at will look at will look at our phones. And Liz our phones. And Liz our phones. And Liz just does this just does this just does this clever study clever study clever study where she measures where she measures where she measures how many smiles how many smiles how many smiles happen between happen between happen between people in the same people in the same people in the same room. You know, room. You know, room. You know, maybe the basis of maybe the basis of maybe the basis of the smallest unit of the smallest unit of the smallest unit of social connection. social connection. social connection. And she finds that And she finds that And she finds that smiles decrease smiles decrease smiles decrease by about 30% when by about 30% when by about 30% when people have their people have their people have their phones handy in phones handy in phones handy in that waiting room, that waiting room, that waiting room, right? Imagine right? Imagine that this 30% is multiplied by the that this 30% is multiplied by the that this 30% is multiplied by the fact that our entire fact that our entire fact that our entire society walks around society walks around society walks around campus and so on. campus and so on. campus and so on. So, we socialize less So, we socialize less . Another . Another big problem, big problem, big problem, especially for young people, especially for young people, especially for young people, is that you're getting is that you're getting is that you're getting less sleep because you're not less sleep because you're not less sleep because you're not using your using your using your technology. I think the technology. I think the technology. I think the worst thing that worst thing that cell cell phone companies ever did was phone companies ever did was phone companies ever did was put an put an put an alarm clock in our cell alarm clock in our cell alarm clock in our cell phones because it gives phones because it gives phones because it gives us an excuse to keep us an excuse to keep us an excuse to keep it next to us in it next to us in it next to us in bed. And then when bed. And then when bed. And then when we wake up in we wake up in we wake up in the middle of the night, we the middle of the night, we the middle of the night, we look at him and look at him and look at him and he tempts us, and so on he tempts us, and so on he tempts us, and so on . I think . I think . I think it also makes us it also makes us it also makes us much less much less much less present over time. present over time. present over time. But mindfulness, But mindfulness, But mindfulness, a kind of a kind of a kind of awareness of where awareness of where awareness of where you are, you are, you are, just being in just being in just being in your space, there's your space, there's your space, there's so much evidence so much evidence so much evidence that it increases our that it increases our that it increases our happiness. We never have happiness. We never have happiness. We never have moments to moments to moments to be aware. be aware. be aware. You know, probably You know, probably You know, probably even some of you even some of you even some of you who come here, Darren, who come here, Darren, who come here, Darren, we're talking to you on we're talking to you on we're talking to you on this this this beautiful beautiful beautiful spring day, when the spring day, when the spring day, when the Dartmouth campus is Dartmouth campus is Dartmouth campus is just gorgeous right now. just gorgeous right now. just gorgeous right now. I think some of you I think some of you I think some of you didn't even notice didn't even notice didn't even notice this. Why? Because this. Why? Because this. Why? Because you were looking at what was you were looking at what was you were looking at what was happening on your happening on your happening on your phone, right? phone, right? phone, right? Not to mention all the Not to mention all the Not to mention all the disturbing information disturbing information disturbing information on the news and everything on the news and everything on the news and everything else. So, it's just else. So, it's just else. So, it's just technology that we technology that we technology that we tend to tend to tend to use in a way that use in a way that use in a way that makes us makes us makes us unhappy. And the unhappy. And the unhappy. And the coolest discovery coolest discovery I I I heard recently was something I heard recently was something I heard recently was something I learned from a podcast with learned from a podcast with learned from a podcast with Manush Zomorodi, a Manush Zomorodi, a Manush Zomorodi, a journalist who journalist who journalist who thinks a lot thinks a lot thinks a lot about the impact of technology about the impact of technology about the impact of technology and how people and how people and how people usually think about usually think about usually think about attention and all that, but attention and all that, but attention and all that, but recently she's recently she's recently she's gotten interested in how gotten interested in how gotten interested in how technology shapes technology shapes technology shapes our physical bodies. It's not what our physical bodies. It's not what our physical bodies. It's not what we think about that determines we think about that determines we think about that determines our mental our mental our mental health, but our health, but our health, but our physical health. And physical health. And physical health. And she talks about she talks about she talks about research that research that research that shows this connection shows this connection shows this connection between our between our between our core muscles and our core muscles and our core muscles and our adrenal adrenal adrenal glands, like our glands, like our glands, like our stress system. And stress system. And stress system. And if you think about if you think about if you think about how we often sit how we often sit when we're on the when we're on the when we're on the phone, I'll phone, I'll phone, I'll demonstrate for demonstrate for demonstrate for those of you who are those of you who are those of you who are n't on the n't on the n't on the phone right now, it's like this. phone right now, it's like this. phone right now, it's like this. This is the so-called This is the so-called This is the so-called hunched over hunched over hunched over cashew pose. It turns out cashew pose. It turns out cashew pose. It turns out that this pose literally that this pose literally that this pose literally stimulates our stimulates our stimulates our stress system. And as stress system. And as stress system. And as Dr. Dr. Dr. Rudy argues, perhaps a large Rudy argues, perhaps a large Rudy argues, perhaps a large part of the part of the part of the mental health crisis mental health crisis mental health crisis we experience we experience we experience through our phones is through our phones is through our phones is actually related to how actually related to how actually related to how we sit in we sit in we sit in our physical bodies our physical bodies our physical bodies and our physical and our physical and our physical presence. So presence. So presence. So now everyone in the room is now everyone in the room is now everyone in the room is straightening up and straightening up and straightening up and trying to get into the trying to get into the trying to get into the right position, right position, right position, but yes, she but yes, she but yes, she argues that we argues that we argues that we could solve could solve could solve some of these problems some of these problems some of these problems if we think about if we think about how technology how technology how technology is changing our is changing our is changing our posture. posture. posture. None of us are None of us are None of us are politicians. I am a historian, politicians. I am a historian, politicians. I am a historian, you are a psychologist, and yet you are a psychologist, and yet you are a psychologist, and yet we are here under the auspices of the we are here under the auspices of the we are here under the auspices of the Rockefeller Rockefeller Rockefeller Center for Center for Center for Public Policy. Public Policy. Public Policy. Our director is here. But Our director is here. But Our director is here. But I feel I feel I feel obligated to obligated to obligated to ask a question ask a question ask a question about public about public about public policy. If you policy. If you policy. If you were an advisor to the king were an advisor to the king were an advisor to the king for a day, what would you for a day, what would you for a day, what would you tell him about tell him about tell him about what we could do what we could do what we could do at the macro level to at the macro level to at the macro level to improve well-being improve well-being improve well-being in the United States? in the United States? in the United States? I'm glad you I'm glad you I'm glad you asked me this asked me this asked me this because sometimes a lot because sometimes a lot because sometimes a lot of this work of this work of this work comes down to the comes down to the comes down to the following. Here are following. Here are following. Here are strategies you strategies you strategies you can can can use as use as use as individuals to individuals to individuals to feel feel feel happier. happier. happier. Write in your Write in your Write in your gratitude journal, gratitude journal, gratitude journal, you know, you know, you know, use these use these self-talk strategies. And that's it. self-talk strategies. And that's it. Good. We can Good. We can Good. We can ignore the fact ignore the fact ignore the fact that there are that there are that there are many structures around us in many structures around us in many structures around us in governments, companies, and governments, companies, and governments, companies, and institutions that institutions that institutions that actively make actively make actively make life harder to be happy. And I life harder to be happy. And I life harder to be happy. And I think that's just a think that's just a think that's just a misnomer. It's misnomer. It's misnomer. It's true that we can true that we can true that we can use use use individual individual individual strategies to become strategies to become strategies to become happier, but it would be happier, but it would be happier, but it would be much easier much easier much easier to apply these to apply these to apply these individual individual individual strategies if we were strategies if we were strategies if we were helped by the institutions helped by the institutions helped by the institutions and governments around us. and governments around us. and governments around us. And we, as psychologists, don't And we, as psychologists, don't And we, as psychologists, don't often have the often have the often have the opportunity to talk about this opportunity to talk about this opportunity to talk about this . So I'm . So I'm . So I'm happy to talk about it happy to talk about it . What do we know about the . What do we know about the . What do we know about the political implications of what political implications of what political implications of what we have learned we have learned we have learned about happiness? We've about happiness? We've about happiness? We've talked about this talked about this talked about this connection between money connection between money connection between money and happiness, where money and happiness, where money and happiness, where money after a certain level after a certain level after a certain level doesn't make you doesn't make you doesn't make you happy, but money happy, but money happy, but money below a certain level below a certain level below a certain level really, really, really, really, really, really, really doesn't make you really doesn't make you really doesn't make you happy. I think happy. I think happy. I think the science of happiness the science of happiness the science of happiness speaks very clearly about the speaks very clearly about the speaks very clearly about the powerful impact that a powerful impact that a powerful impact that a universal universal universal basic income can basic income can basic income can have on both levels. have on both levels. have on both levels. If you give If you give If you give low- low- low- income people more money, income people more money, income people more money, it will definitely it will definitely it will definitely make them happier. make them happier. make them happier. If you have to If you have to If you have to tax tax tax higher-income people higher-income people to get that to get that to get that money, it will have absolutely money, it will have absolutely money, it will have absolutely no impact on their no impact on their no impact on their happiness. It's just happiness. It's just happiness. It's just extremely, extremely, extremely, extremely clear. extremely clear. extremely clear. Another important Another important Another important policy conclusion policy conclusion policy conclusion is that is that is that social connections are social connections are social connections are indeed important for indeed important for indeed important for happiness. I think there happiness. I think there happiness. I think there are many are many are many ways in which ways in which ways in which public policy public policy public policy can affect can affect can affect social ties. social ties. social ties. Here I refer to Here I refer to Here I refer to wonderful people wonderful people wonderful people like Robert Putnam and like Robert Putnam and like Robert Putnam and others who have long others who have long others who have long talked about the power of talked about the power of talked about the power of things like third things like third things like third spaces, literal spaces, literal spaces, literal spaces that are not spaces that are not spaces that are not work or school or work or school or work or school or anything like anything like anything like home, places where you can home, places where you can home, places where you can meet meet meet other people. That's something other people. That's something other people. That's something governments can governments can governments can do, is just make it do, is just make it do, is just make it easier for people easier for people easier for people to get these to get these to get these spaces. And in spaces. And in spaces. And in empirical cases empirical cases empirical cases where people have done this, where people have done this, where people have done this, we've seen a we've seen a we've seen a huge impact in huge impact in huge impact in terms of greater terms of greater terms of greater connection, greater connection, greater connection, greater happiness, but I think happiness, but I think happiness, but I think even more conversations even more conversations even more conversations across the political across the political across the political spectrum could spectrum could spectrum could help a lot. Finally, help a lot. Finally, help a lot. Finally, we talked a lot we talked a lot we talked a lot about the power of time and the about the power of time and the about the power of time and the importance of temporal importance of temporal importance of temporal abundance. I think that's a abundance. I think that's a abundance. I think that's a lever that lever that lever that public policy public policy public policy can use can use , that it often , that it often , that it often doesn't think about because we doesn't think about because we doesn't think about because we forget about the forget about the forget about the importance of time, but importance of time, but importance of time, but even things like the even things like the even things like the four-day four-day four-day workweek, which workweek, which workweek, which even economists are even economists are even economists are now telling us, " now telling us, " Wow, the four-day Wow, the four-day Wow, the four-day workweek workweek workweek makes workers makes workers makes workers more productive." more productive." more productive." They have time to They have time to They have time to get more things done, get more things done, get more things done, and they also have time to and they also have time to and they also have time to relax and relax and relax and do other do other do other things." Can be things." Can be things." Can be extremely powerful extremely powerful . Finally, I will say that I . Finally, I will say that I . Finally, I will say that I think one of the think one of the think one of the things that we things that we things that we forget is that forget is that forget is that happiness leads to happiness leads to happiness leads to doing doing doing good things for good things for good things for others and doing others and doing others and doing what our ancestors wanted, what our ancestors wanted, what our ancestors wanted, which is to be good in which is to be good in which is to be good in our our our civic life civic life , to live a good life , to live a good life , to live a good life not for ourselves but for not for ourselves but for not for ourselves but for everyone else. There's a lot of everyone else. There's a lot of everyone else. There's a lot of new work that new work that new work that just shows that a just shows that a just shows that a really great really great really great way to motivate way to motivate way to motivate people to fight for what's people to fight for what's people to fight for what's good in the world, good in the world, good in the world, to fix the structures to fix the structures to fix the structures around them–is around them–is around them–is just to make sure just to make sure just to make sure they're in a positive they're in a positive they're in a positive mood and mood and mood and feeling feeling feeling happier. This is a happier. This is a happier. This is a great piece of work great piece of work great piece of work by by by Georgetown's Kushlev, which Georgetown's Kushlev, which Georgetown's Kushlev, which begs the question: Who begs the question: Who begs the question: Who will come out and enjoy will come out and enjoy will come out and enjoy doing this? Who doing this? Who doing this? Who would like would like would like climate protests, climate protests, climate protests, or, um, he was doing this or, um, he was doing this or, um, he was doing this work around the work around the work around the time of the Black Lives Matter movement. time of the Black Lives Matter movement. time of the Black Lives Matter movement. He asks: who will go He asks: who will go He asks: who will go to these protests and to these protests and to these protests and fight for fight for fight for social social social justice? And he justice? And he justice? And he discovers that it's not what discovers that it's not what discovers that it's not what you think. Can you you think. Can you you think. Can you guess guess guess who will go to the who will go to the who will go to the climate protests? climate protests? climate protests? It has to be someone who is It has to be someone who is It has to be someone who is truly concerned about the truly concerned about the truly concerned about the climate. climate. climate. It turns out, no, these are the It turns out, no, these are the It turns out, no, these are the people who are the least people who are the least people who are the least anxious, the people who anxious, the people who anxious, the people who have the have the have the most positive most positive most positive mood. They are the ones who mood. They are the ones who mood. They are the ones who go out to go out to go out to do something. And in do something. And in do something. And in a way, you didn't a way, you didn't a way, you didn't need to know need to know need to know about this study about this study about this study to understand this to understand this to understand this fact. For example, if fact. For example, if fact. For example, if you think about the fact you think about the fact you think about the fact that you just that you just that you just feel feel feel down and down and down and are in a really are in a really are in a really bad situation, you're bad situation, you're bad situation, you're not trying not trying not trying to fix the world, you're to fix the world, you're to fix the world, you're just trying just trying just trying to cope. But it does to cope. But it does to cope. But it does mean that this mean that this mean that this connection between connection between connection between individual individual individual happiness and happiness and happiness and civic happiness civic happiness civic happiness is important. That if we is important. That if we is important. That if we give people the give people the give people the tools and tools and tools and skills to promote skills to promote skills to promote their their their individual individual individual happiness, it will happiness, it will happiness, it will empower them to fix empower them to fix empower them to fix bigger things. And so I bigger things. And so I bigger things. And so I think politicians think politicians think politicians need to realize need to realize need to realize that well-being at the that well-being at the that well-being at the individual individual individual level is not just a level is not just a level is not just a political goal. This political goal. This political goal. This can be a political can be a political can be a political tool that tool that tool that will help people will help people will help people achieve better achieve better achieve better outcomes in a outcomes in a outcomes in a broader sense. broader sense. broader sense. It's time for It's time for It's time for a break, but a break, but a break, but Darin and I will return to Darin and I will return to Darin and I will return to further conversation further conversation further conversation when The when The when The Happiness Lab returns Happiness Lab returns Happiness Lab returns in a moment. in a moment. Well, I have more Well, I have more questions than time, and questions than time, and questions than time, and I remember wanting to I remember wanting to I remember wanting to open this up to people open this up to people . The Dartmouth . The Dartmouth . The Dartmouth tradition is that tradition is that tradition is that the student the student the student asks the first asks the first asks the first question. So if there is a question. So if there is a question. So if there is a brave student... brave student... brave student... Hello. Thank you for being Hello. Thank you for being Hello. Thank you for being here. My name is Mia. I am a here. My name is Mia. I am a here. My name is Mia. I am a first- first- first- year student. I'm curious, year student. I'm curious, year student. I'm curious, what do you think is the what do you think is the what do you think is the connection between connection between connection between comparison and happiness? comparison and happiness? And to what extent And to what extent can you really can you really can you really separate your separate your separate your happiness from evaluating it happiness from evaluating it happiness from evaluating it in comparison to in comparison to in comparison to someone else? someone else? For example, how For example, how can a college student find can a college student find can a college student find their own happiness without their own happiness without their own happiness without thinking, "Oh, I would be thinking, "Oh, I would be thinking, "Oh, I would be happier if my happier if my happier if my life looked like the life looked like the life looked like the life of so-and- life of so-and- life of so-and- so." so." so." Absolutely. So here's Absolutely. So here's Absolutely. So here's another stupid another stupid another stupid feature about feature about feature about how the mind works when it comes how the mind works when it comes how the mind works when it comes to happiness. And to happiness. And to happiness. And how the mind works how the mind works how the mind works in general, it's in general, it's in general, it's not just about not just about not just about happiness, it's just the happiness, it's just the happiness, it's just the human mind human mind human mind written on a larger written on a larger written on a larger scale. We don't scale. We don't scale. We don't think about anything think about anything think about anything objectively. We objectively. We objectively. We only think about only think about only think about relative things. We are here, in relative things. We are here, in relative things. We are here, in this room with this room with this room with bright artificial bright artificial bright artificial lighting. When you lighting. When you lighting. When you go outside into a go outside into a go outside into a slightly darker slightly darker slightly darker corridor, you'll think, corridor, you'll think, "Oh my God, it's so dark in here "Oh my God, it's so dark in here ." It's not that ." It's not that ." It's not that the corridor is dark, it's the corridor is dark, it's the corridor is dark, it's just lighter here. just lighter here. just lighter here. You don't think about You don't think about You don't think about light in terms of light in terms of light in terms of its objective its objective its objective properties, you properties, you properties, you think about it think about it think about it relative to another relative to another relative to another space, right? space, right? space, right? This is how we think This is how we think This is how we think about everything, including about everything, including about everything, including our own level of our own level of our own level of whatever, our whatever, our whatever, our grades, our beauty, grades, our beauty, grades, our beauty, our salary. We ca our salary. We ca our salary. We ca n't even n't even n't even understand them understand them understand them objectively, we can objectively, we can objectively, we can only think about them only think about them only think about them relatively. And our brains relatively. And our brains relatively. And our brains have another insidious have another insidious have another insidious property, which is that property, which is that property, which is that we we we tend to never tend to never tend to never make this make this make this relative relative relative comparison to the things comparison to the things comparison to the things we are better at. Therefore, we are better at. Therefore, we are better at. Therefore, we tend to look we tend to look we tend to look at the person who makes at the person who makes at the person who makes us feel worse us feel worse us feel worse about ourselves. My about ourselves. My about ourselves. My favorite boring favorite boring favorite boring example of this is the example of this is the sports example. sports example. sports example. Researchers Researchers Researchers observed observed observed Olympic Olympic Olympic medalists on the medalists on the medalists on the podium and their podium and their podium and their emotional expressions. emotional expressions. emotional expressions. So, the gold So, the gold So, the gold medalist is extremely medalist is extremely medalist is extremely happy, very happy, very happy, very excited, right? excited, right? excited, right? What about the silver What about the silver What about the silver medalist? He's not just a medalist? He's not just a medalist? He's not just a little less little less little less fortunate than the gold fortunate than the gold fortunate than the gold medalist. If medalist. If medalist. If you analyze their you analyze their you analyze their facial muscles, you facial muscles, you facial muscles, you can find that the can find that the can find that the silver medalists silver medalists silver medalists display display display emotions such as contempt emotions such as contempt and deep sadness. and deep sadness. and deep sadness. They are not a little less They are not a little less They are not a little less happy, they are unhappy happy, they are unhappy . Why? They just . Why? They just . Why? They just feel like complete feel like complete feel like complete failures. They failures. They failures. They just look at the just look at the just look at the gold medalist and gold medalist and gold medalist and feel terrible, feel terrible, feel terrible, right? You can right? You can right? You can be objectively in be objectively in be objectively in the best of the best of the best of circumstances in life, and if circumstances in life, and if circumstances in life, and if your mind finds your mind finds your mind finds one person who is one person who is one person who is better than you, it will better than you, it will better than you, it will pay attention to that pay attention to that pay attention to that person and make it happen. I person and make it happen. I person and make it happen. I very briefly very briefly very briefly consulted for an consulted for an consulted for an NBA team with NBA team with NBA team with basketball players, which is basketball players, which is basketball players, which is funny because I funny because I funny because I know nothing about basketball or know nothing about basketball or know nothing about basketball or sports in general. sports in general. sports in general. So I have to So I have to So I have to find ways to find ways to find ways to communicate with communicate with communicate with basketball players. But basketball players. But basketball players. But we talked about the we talked about the we talked about the insidiousness of insidiousness of insidiousness of social social social comparison even at the comparison even at the comparison even at the highest level in the NBA highest level in the NBA . And I asked them . And I asked them . And I asked them who they were comparing themselves to. who they were comparing themselves to. who they were comparing themselves to. I asked: "Who is I asked: "Who is I asked: "Who is your point of your point of your point of comparison, comparison, comparison, for example, in terms of for example, in terms of for example, in terms of salary now?" And salary now?" And salary now?" And then they said, " then they said, " Oh, it's Steph Curry." And I Oh, it's Steph Curry." And I Oh, it's Steph Curry." And I asked, "Who is asked, "Who is asked, "Who is your point of your point of your point of comparison, comparison, comparison, for example, in terms of for example, in terms of for example, in terms of three-point shooting?" three-point shooting?" three-point shooting?" And they answered: " And they answered: " Steph Curry." And I Steph Curry." And I Steph Curry." And I asked, "Who is your asked, "Who is your height comparison?" And they height comparison?" And they said, "Oh, it's said, "Oh, it's said, "Oh, it's like Taco Fall." I like Taco Fall." I like Taco Fall." I thought, "Why isn't he thought, "Why isn't he thought, "Why isn't he Steph Curry in height Steph Curry in height ?" Because if you know ?" Because if you know ?" Because if you know basketball, Steph basketball, Steph basketball, Steph Curry is pretty short Curry is pretty short ." And they replied: " ." And they replied: " Well, I didn't think about Well, I didn't think about Well, I didn't think about him because of that." But him because of that." But him because of that." But how did you think of how did you think of how did you think of him for every him for every him for every other comparison. other comparison. other comparison. Why not? So even Why not? So even Why not? So even at the highest level we at the highest level we at the highest level we chose terrible chose terrible chose terrible things, right? So I things, right? So I things, right? So I think one think one think one way to compare way to compare is to just be is to just be is to just be a little more sophisticated. That's how a little more sophisticated. That's how a little more sophisticated. That's how your mind works for your mind works for your mind works for everything. Of course, you everything. Of course, you everything. Of course, you will compare. will compare. will compare. But you need to But you need to But you need to realize that you realize that you realize that you can change can change can change this process a little. And that's why this process a little. And that's why this process a little. And that's why I like to I like to I like to bother and bother and bother and tell this tell this tell this story about the story about the story about the Olympians, because there's a Olympians, because there's a Olympians, because there's a third data point third data point third data point that I didn't mention. that I didn't mention. that I didn't mention. I was talking about the I was talking about the I was talking about the gold and silver gold and silver gold and silver medalists. I didn't medalists. I didn't medalists. I didn't mention the bronze mention the bronze mention the bronze medalist. medalist. medalist. Researchers Researchers Researchers analyze their analyze their analyze their facial expressions, and facial expressions, and facial expressions, and it turns out that they are it turns out that they are it turns out that they are delighted. They often delighted. They often show more show more positive expressions positive expressions positive expressions than the gold medalist in some analyses. than the gold medalist in some analyses. than the gold medalist in some analyses. Why? Their point Why? Their point Why? Their point of comparison is not of comparison is not of comparison is not gold. They were a gold. They were a gold. They were a few seconds or a few few seconds or a few few seconds or a few points away from me. points away from me. points away from me. Their comparison is, Their comparison is, Their comparison is, "Oh, God, if I had "Oh, God, if I had "Oh, God, if I had done a little more, I would have done a little more, I would have done a little more, I would have gone home gone home gone home empty-handed." And empty-handed." And empty-handed." And so the joke is that so the joke is that so the joke is that you need to find you need to find you need to find not the light, but the not the light, but the not the light, but the bronze side. You bronze side. You bronze side. You literally need literally need literally need to see, could it to see, could it to see, could it be worse? Is there another be worse? Is there another be worse? Is there another comparison I could comparison I could comparison I could find? And this find? And this find? And this intentional energy intentional energy intentional energy takes work, but takes work, but takes work, but it is possible. So, it is possible. So, it is possible. So, a little grace. Everyone a little grace. Everyone a little grace. Everyone does it. It's just does it. It's just does it. It's just how your mind works. how your mind works. how your mind works. But, if you But, if you But, if you look closely, you look closely, you look closely, you may find that may find that may find that objectively, things aren't objectively, things aren't objectively, things aren't so bad with you. so bad with you. so bad with you. Strive for Strive for Strive for third place in life. third place in life. third place in life. Yes, that's right. Yes, that's right. Yes, that's right. Professor Blanchflower Professor Blanchflower . . Thank you. I'm Danny Thank you. I'm Danny Blanchflower. This is exactly the Blanchflower. This is exactly the Blanchflower. This is exactly the topic I was going to topic I was going to topic I was going to think about. think about. think about. Darren and I were in Darren and I were in Darren and I were in Scotland for the 300th anniversary Scotland for the 300th anniversary Scotland for the 300th anniversary of of of Adam Smith's birth. And if you Adam Smith's birth. And if you Adam Smith's birth. And if you read the first read the first read the first page of "The Theory of page of "The Theory of page of "The Theory of Moral Sentiments," Moral Sentiments," Moral Sentiments," it says what you it says what you it says what you just said. He is just said. He is just said. He is actually saying, " actually saying, " We actually We actually We actually compare ourselves to compare ourselves to compare ourselves to others and care others and care others and care about the well-being of about the well-being of about the well-being of others." For a guy others." For a guy others." For a guy who wrote about markets. who wrote about markets. who wrote about markets. So, the relative thing is So, the relative thing is So, the relative thing is really important. really important. really important. Even I think that in a Even I think that in a Even I think that in a macroeconomic macroeconomic macroeconomic sense it is really sense it is really sense it is really important. I'll just important. I'll just important. I'll just tell you about a tell you about a Nobel Prize winner, Nobel Prize winner, whose name shall remain whose name shall remain whose name shall remain anonymous, who anonymous, who called me once, and called me once, and I wrote about I wrote about I wrote about relative things, and he relative things, and he relative things, and he said, "I can said, "I can said, "I can buy anything I buy anything I buy anything I like, but I'm like, but I'm like, but I'm still interested in the still interested in the still interested in the salaries of my colleagues." salaries of my colleagues." salaries of my colleagues." So this is a big deal, So this is a big deal, So this is a big deal, right? If right? If right? If you think about it in you think about it in you think about it in macroeconomic macroeconomic macroeconomic terms, we've seen terms, we've seen terms, we've seen GDP growth, GDP growth, national income growth, and if national income growth, and if you look at happiness, you look at happiness, you look at happiness, it's flat as a it's flat as a it's flat as a pancake. Well, what pancake. Well, what pancake. Well, what happens is that happens is that happens is that people compare themselves people compare themselves people compare themselves to others. If I to others. If I to others. If I get a BMW, it's the work of get a BMW, it's the work of get a BMW, it's the work of our colleagues, if I our colleagues, if I our colleagues, if I get a BMW, it makes get a BMW, it makes get a BMW, it makes me happy, but me happy, but me happy, but if you if you if you get it, I'm not get it, I'm not get it, I'm not happy anymore. I mean, it's happy anymore. I mean, it's happy anymore. I mean, it's literally true. There is literally true. There is literally true. There is evidence that evidence that evidence that many more many more many more famous people famous people famous people find that if find that if find that if my income increases by my income increases by my income increases by 10%, that's fine, but 10%, that's fine, but 10%, that's fine, but if my income doesn't if my income doesn't if my income doesn't increase and everyone in the increase and everyone in the increase and everyone in the neighborhood gets 10% neighborhood gets 10% , I feel worse. , I feel worse. , I feel worse. So these comparisons are So these comparisons are So these comparisons are really important. And I really important. And I really important. And I know you were talking know you were talking know you were talking about this on an about this on an about this on an individual individual individual level, but I obviously level, but I obviously think it's really important for us think it's really important for us to think about maybe to think about maybe your relationship with your relationship with your relationship with smartphones. When I smartphones. When I smartphones. When I was a child, I was a child, I was a child, I was 12 years old, and now was 12 years old, and now was 12 years old, and now I am old. I was 12, I am old. I was 12, I am old. I was 12, comparing myself to comparing myself to comparing myself to my sister and my sister and my sister and schoolmates. schoolmates. schoolmates. Perhaps what we Perhaps what we Perhaps what we have here is that have here is that have here is that the smartphone has changed the the smartphone has changed the the smartphone has changed the comparison group. comparison group. Comparison groups aren't Comparison groups aren't real, are they? real, are they? real, are they? If I compare myself If I compare myself If I compare myself to my sister or to to my sister or to to my sister or to Darren or to someone else Darren or to someone else Darren or to someone else , that's okay. , that's okay. , that's okay. But in a way, But in a way, But in a way, the connection between real the connection between real the connection between real things and smartphones is that things and smartphones is that smartphones change the smartphones change the comparison group. And comparison group. And comparison group. And until we can until we can until we can do that, the individual do that, the individual do that, the individual things you things you things you talked about don't talked about don't talked about don't matter. So I'm matter. So I'm matter. So I'm just trying to just trying to just trying to think about how think about how think about how we can actually we can actually we can actually get people get people get people to compare themselves to to compare themselves to to compare themselves to real things. Because real things. Because real things. Because if I've if I've if I've learned anything about the learned anything about the learned anything about the happiness work I've happiness work I've happiness work I've done, it's what done, it's what done, it's what you said: relative you said: relative you said: relative things matter. things matter. things matter. Yes. No, I think this is a Yes. No, I think this is a Yes. No, I think this is a very important point, do very important point, do very important point, do n't you? It's n't you? It's n't you? It's comparing yourself, comparing yourself, comparing yourself, you know, if you're a you know, if you're a you know, if you're a student here, to everyone at student here, to everyone at student here, to everyone at Dartmouth, but it's Dartmouth, but it's Dartmouth, but it's also comparing also comparing also comparing yourself to literally yourself to literally yourself to literally everyone on the internet. And everyone on the internet. And everyone on the internet. And of course, what of course, what of course, what happens on happens on happens on the internet is completely the internet is completely the internet is completely curated, curated, curated, especially when it comes especially when it comes especially when it comes to beauty, to beauty, to beauty, you know, appearance, you know, appearance, you know, appearance, etc. It seems like it's all etc. It seems like it's all etc. It seems like it's all made up. And I think made up. And I think made up. And I think in the age of artificial in the age of artificial in the age of artificial intelligence that we're intelligence that we're intelligence that we're moving into, we're going to have moving into, we're going to have moving into, we're going to have even more comparisons even more comparisons even more comparisons that don't even exist, that don't even exist, that don't even exist, right? And so it right? And so it right? And so it raises this interesting raises this interesting raises this interesting question of what we question of what we question of what we can do. Again can do. Again can do. Again , as a psychologist, I , as a psychologist, I , as a psychologist, I think about think about think about individual individual individual strategies that we strategies that we strategies that we can can can use. use. use. The idea is The idea is The idea is that you have some that you have some that you have some discretion over discretion over whether to pick up the phone and whether to pick up the phone and whether to pick up the phone and watch TikTok. watch TikTok. watch TikTok. Can you consciously Can you consciously Can you consciously notice how I notice how I notice how I feel when I feel when I feel when I do this? If I come off do this? If I come off do this? If I come off TikTok hating TikTok hating TikTok hating my body and wishing my body and wishing my body and wishing I could I could I could go to the gym, and go to the gym, and go to the gym, and feeling bad feeling bad feeling bad about my grades, about my grades, about my grades, try to notice try to notice try to notice when these comparisons come up when these comparisons come up when these comparisons come up , and are they , and are they , and are they really real? This is the really real? This is the really real? This is the strategy strategy strategy of a journalist like of a journalist like of a journalist like Catherine Price, who has a Catherine Price, who has a Catherine Price, who has a great book, "How to great book, "How to great book, "How to Break Up with Your Break Up with Your Break Up with Your Phone," where Phone," where Phone," where she argues that you don't she argues that you don't she argues that you don't have to have to have to break up with your break up with your break up with your phone, but phone, but phone, but you need to turn you need to turn you need to turn to family to family to family psychology to psychology to psychology to build healthier build healthier build healthier relationships. She has a relationships. She has a relationships. She has a strategy that she strategy that she strategy that she uses. It's uses. It's uses. It's an abbreviation for WWW, which an abbreviation for WWW, which an abbreviation for WWW, which stands for "what for," " stands for "what for," " why now," and "what else," why now," and "what else," why now," and "what else," right? Why did I pick up right? Why did I pick up right? Why did I pick up the phone? What do I the phone? What do I the phone? What do I use it for? What use it for? What use it for? What else could I do? else could I do? else could I do? But I like But I like But I like this WWW strategy because this WWW strategy because this WWW strategy because it's a moment for it's a moment for it's a moment for awareness. Why did I awareness. Why did I awareness. Why did I pick up the phone? How do I pick up the phone? How do I pick up the phone? How do I feel when I feel when I feel when I use it? If it makes use it? If it makes use it? If it makes you you you feel absolutely feel absolutely feel absolutely awful, if you have awful, if you have awful, if you have all these social all these social all these social comparisons, it's a hint to comparisons, it's a hint to comparisons, it's a hint to maybe maybe maybe throw those things away or to throw those things away or to throw those things away or to realize for a moment realize for a moment realize for a moment that one terrible thing about that one terrible thing about that one terrible thing about our minds our minds our minds is that we is that we is that we don't have much don't have much don't have much control over what control over what control over what other reference points other reference points other reference points for these social for these social for these social comparisons we comparisons we comparisons we use. We use. We use. We just absorb everything we just absorb everything we just absorb everything we get. And get. And get. And especially those that especially those that especially those that put us in a put us in a put us in a bad light. And this bad light. And this bad light. And this means that we are means that we are means that we are constantly influenced by constantly influenced by constantly influenced by other people. And when these other people. And when these other people. And when these other people are real and other people are real and other people are real and around us, and with around us, and with around us, and with our our our peer group, that's one thing. peer group, that's one thing. peer group, that's one thing. When these other people are When these other people are When these other people are fake people on the fake people on the fake people on the internet with internet with internet with photo filters and photo filters and photo filters and stuff, it's much stuff, it's much stuff, it's much worse. worse. The question is right here. Um, I'm curious, Um, I'm curious, since I'm a since I'm a cognitive science major, cognitive science major, given that people have given that people have given that people have sometimes started sometimes started sometimes started using using using AI as a AI as a AI as a replacement for mental replacement for mental replacement for mental health, like health, like health, like counselors, for example counselors, for example counselors, for example , AI can , AI can , AI can lead, if you lead, if you lead, if you prompt, it can prompt, it can prompt, it can lead to lead to lead to self-harm. Do self-harm. Do self-harm. Do you have any you have any you have any suggestions, because suggestions, because suggestions, because even when you even when you even when you like to like to like to Google something, it's usually Google something, it's usually Google something, it's usually also also also AI-based answers. Like, I don't AI-based answers. Like, I don't AI-based answers. Like, I don't know, your know, your know, your point of view is "Yes." point of view is "Yes." point of view is "Yes." No, I like No, I like No, I like this question because I this question because I this question because I think we're going to think we're going to need to think more and more need to think more and more about how these new about how these new about how these new technologies like technologies like technologies like AI and the LL.M. AI and the LL.M. AI and the LL.M. affect our affect our affect our happiness. In terms of chatbots happiness. In terms of chatbots happiness. In terms of chatbots and advice, or and advice, or chatbots and therapy, or chatbots and therapy, or chatbots and therapy, or even chatbots and even chatbots and even chatbots and friendship, chatbots and friendship, chatbots and friendship, chatbots and relationships, I just relationships, I just relationships, I just did an episode with Jean did an episode with Jean did an episode with Jean Twenge, and she Twenge, and she Twenge, and she was talking about how was talking about how was talking about how most most most high school students will high school students will high school students will probably have probably have probably have their first their first their first romantic relationship romantic relationship romantic relationship with a chatbot. Because it's with a chatbot. Because it's with a chatbot. Because it's easy, frictionless, you easy, frictionless, you easy, frictionless, you can talk to can talk to can talk to them about sexual them about sexual them about sexual things without talking things without talking things without talking to a real to a real to a real person, and we just have person, and we just have person, and we just have n't thought about n't thought about n't thought about it carefully at all. But with it carefully at all. But with it carefully at all. But with chatbots, therapy, chatbots, therapy, chatbots, therapy, chatbots, and friendship, I chatbots, and friendship, I chatbots, and friendship, I think you've identified think you've identified think you've identified a lot of the problems, a lot of the problems, a lot of the problems, namely that these namely that these namely that these tools aren't tools aren't tools aren't necessarily that good at necessarily that good at necessarily that good at distinguishing between good distinguishing between good distinguishing between good advice and bad advice. And advice and bad advice. And advice and bad advice. And sometimes, especially because sometimes, especially because sometimes, especially because a lot of the a lot of the a lot of the tools tools tools are designed to be are designed to be are designed to be a little bit more a little bit more a little bit more agreeable to you, agreeable to you, agreeable to you, you know, if you're you know, if you're you know, if you're like, "Oh, I want to like, "Oh, I want to like, "Oh, I want to do this horrible do this horrible do this horrible self-mutilation thing." self-mutilation thing." self-mutilation thing." Sometimes they tend to Sometimes they tend to Sometimes they tend to say, "Oh, that say, "Oh, that say, "Oh, that sounds great." I sounds great." I sounds great." I think these think these think these tools are getting tools are getting tools are getting better, especially better, especially better, especially given the horrific given the horrific given the horrific incidents that incidents that incidents that happen. But yes, happen. But yes, happen. But yes, it is dangerous. I'm it is dangerous. I'm it is dangerous. I'm also concerned with the idea that also concerned with the idea that also concerned with the idea that social connections social connections social connections can seem can seem can seem a bit unreliable, a bit unreliable, a bit unreliable, they can be they can be they can be complicated. Many complicated. Many complicated. Many of us feel of us feel of us feel lonely. And that people lonely. And that people lonely. And that people actually actually actually turn to these turn to these turn to these tools only tools only tools only for friendship, advice for friendship, advice , companionship. And there is , companionship. And there is , companionship. And there is some new work some new work some new work by by by Liz Dunn's group that Liz Dunn's group that Liz Dunn's group that finds that finds that finds that it is initially beneficial. it is initially beneficial. it is initially beneficial. For example, at a certain For example, at a certain For example, at a certain point it makes you point it makes you point it makes you feel less feel less feel less lonely, but in the lonely, but in the lonely, but in the long long long run it makes things run it makes things run it makes things worse. worse. worse. It makes you It makes you It makes you lonelier. So I lonelier. So I lonelier. So I think it's kind of like the think it's kind of like the think it's kind of like the NutraSweet connection, NutraSweet connection, NutraSweet connection, where it feels where it feels where it feels good, it's sweet in good, it's sweet in good, it's sweet in the moment, but it the moment, but it the moment, but it doesn't give you the doesn't give you the nutrition you need. Another nutrition you need. Another thing I will say, thing I will say, thing I will say, just because I'm just because I'm just because I'm in a room with in a room with in a room with a lot of students a lot of students a lot of students who I'm very concerned who I'm very concerned who I'm very concerned about with AI, which I do about with AI, which I do about with AI, which I do n't think we're n't think we're n't think we're thinking about, is the thinking about, is the thinking about, is the impact of cognitive impact of cognitive impact of cognitive offloading. You offloading. You offloading. You let your let your let your chatbot just chatbot just chatbot just write your write your write your answer paper because it's answer paper because it's answer paper because it's a little faster, or you a little faster, or you a little faster, or you let your let your let your chatbot write chatbot write chatbot write your essay or do your essay or do your essay or do something complicated because you something complicated because you something complicated because you feel the friction of feel the friction of feel the friction of doing doing doing something complicated. You encounter something complicated. You encounter something complicated. You encounter some resistance and you some resistance and you some resistance and you just translate just translate just translate it to this. There is a lot of it to this. There is a lot of it to this. There is a lot of work by people like work by people like work by people like Mickey Inslick and others Mickey Inslick and others that demonstrates the that demonstrates the that demonstrates the power of effort. These power of effort. These power of effort. These efforts are efforts are efforts are rewarding. We don't rewarding. We don't rewarding. We don't like like like doing it, but once doing it, but once doing it, but once we get through it, it's we get through it, it's we get through it, it's nice. We nice. We nice. We like to have our like to have our like to have our own ideas. We own ideas. We own ideas. We like to like to like to promote things. That's promote things. That's promote things. That's why those of you who why those of you who why those of you who read the New York Times Wordle read the New York Times Wordle read the New York Times Wordle in the morning don't just in the morning don't just in the morning don't just look at one of the look at one of the look at one of the many sites that has a many sites that has a many sites that has a Wordle answer and Wordle answer and Wordle answer and type it in. You type it in. You type it in. You are trying to are trying to are trying to get ahead. It's get ahead. It's get ahead. It's nice, isn't it? nice, isn't it? But we don't think about But we don't think about the consequences of such a the consequences of such a the consequences of such a relief for the relief for the relief for the academic work of an academic work of an academic work of an entire generation, for entire generation, for entire generation, for the things of an entire the things of an entire the things of an entire generation. Where there are generation. Where there are generation. Where there are cognitive benefits cognitive benefits cognitive benefits from self- from self- from self- promotion of something, and promotion of something, and promotion of something, and I think we don't I think we don't I think we don't track the track the track the happiness cost of that. I happiness cost of that. I happiness cost of that. I see a bit of this in my see a bit of this in my see a bit of this in my students. Professors students. Professors students. Professors can sense when can sense when can sense when you are using an LLM. you are using an LLM. you are using an LLM. They say: well, it They say: well, it They say: well, it was written by LLM. And I was written by LLM. And I was written by LLM. And I ask, “Oh, what do you ask, “Oh, what do you ask, “Oh, what do you think about the article? " think about the article? " think about the article? " How do you like this idea?" They're How do you like this idea?" They're How do you like this idea?" They're just not very just not very just not very keen on it. They keen on it. They keen on it. They just don't just don't just don't interact with it the same way interact with it the same way interact with it the same way . Something interesting is lost in this connection . Something interesting is lost in this connection . Obviously, there are . Obviously, there are tuition costs tuition costs tuition costs and other types of expenses. and other types of expenses. and other types of expenses. I'm really I'm really I'm really interested in that interested in that interested in that little jolt of little jolt of little jolt of happiness, that little happiness, that little happiness, that little jolt of flow that jolt of flow that jolt of flow that you get from you get from you get from working hard working hard working hard on something. I think on something. I think on something. I think we're going to lose that we're going to lose that we're going to lose that more and more over time more and more over time more and more over time , and I , and I , and I worry that's worry that's worry that's dangerous. dangerous. dangerous. By the way, what's By the way, what's By the way, what's involved with Wordle is also involved with Wordle is also involved with Wordle is also involved with learning the involved with learning the involved with learning the conjugations of conjugations of conjugations of irregular irregular irregular Latin verbs, Latin verbs, Latin verbs, just so people know just so people know . So, um, let's . So, um, let's . So, um, let's see. We're see. We're see. We're almost out of time, almost out of time, almost out of time, but I think we but I think we but I think we could ask could ask could ask one more question if one more question if one more question if anyone wants to anyone wants to anyone wants to argue. Yes. argue. Yes. It seems like comparison is the thief of joy, is the thief of joy, is the thief of joy, but we are taught that but we are taught that but we are taught that ambition is what really ambition is what really ambition is what really matters. And economically, matters. And economically, matters. And economically, ambition and ambition and ambition and productivity are what productivity are what our society prioritizes. So how do we reconcile this So how do we reconcile this mindset that mindset that mindset that being a bronze being a bronze being a bronze medalist is medalist is medalist is okay with the idea that okay with the idea that okay with the idea that we want we want we want people to aspire people to aspire people to aspire to be gold to be gold to be gold medalists? medalists? medalists? Hmm. Hmm. One Hmm. Hmm. One Hmm. Hmm. One way way way to rephrase your to rephrase your to rephrase your question is to ask: question is to ask: question is to ask: what exactly makes us what exactly makes us what exactly makes us gold gold gold medalists in medalists in any field? What exactly any field? What exactly any field? What exactly makes us makes us makes us excel, the excel, the excel, the best best best employees? No matter what employees? No matter what employees? No matter what achievement I choose, achievement I choose, achievement I choose, how do I achieve it? And I how do I achieve it? And I how do I achieve it? And I think our minds think our minds think our minds have this assumption have this assumption have this assumption that you just have to that you just have to that you just have to work until you work until you work until you burn out, kill burn out, kill burn out, kill yourself, force yourself, yourself, force yourself, yourself, force yourself, hurry, hurry, hurry, hurry, hurry, hurry, hurry, and you hurry, and you hurry, and you will reach your goal. And I will reach your goal. And I will reach your goal. And I think what we're think what we're think what we're learning is that it just doesn't learning is that it just doesn't learning is that it just doesn't work that way. Even work that way. Even work that way. Even if your goal is if your goal is simply achievement at simply achievement at simply achievement at all costs and you don't care all costs and you don't care all costs and you don't care about your mental about your mental about your mental health, perhaps health, perhaps prioritizing your prioritizing your mental health will help mental health will help mental health will help you achieve you achieve you achieve that achievement more quickly. And that achievement more quickly. And that achievement more quickly. And we see this in the we see this in the we see this in the context of our context of our context of our physical health, I physical health, I physical health, I think, a little better, think, a little better, think, a little better, right? You're here at right? You're here at right? You're here at Dartmouth, so I know a Dartmouth, so I know a Dartmouth, so I know a lot of you are lot of you are lot of you are athletes, and you've athletes, and you've athletes, and you've probably, if you're on a probably, if you're on a probably, if you're on a team or you're team or you're team or you're coaching, heard about coaching, heard about coaching, heard about concepts like concepts like concepts like active recreation, active recreation, active recreation, where, like, if you where, like, if you where, like, if you just kill yourself, just kill yourself, just kill yourself, keep keep keep training and training and training and giving 110% giving 110% all the time, you're going to all the time, you're going to all the time, you're going to get injured. get injured. get injured. Your body won't be able to Your body won't be able to Your body won't be able to handle it. If handle it. If handle it. If you want to be you want to be you want to be optimal, you optimal, you optimal, you need moments of need moments of need moments of rest, rest, rest, de- de- de- stressing, etc. stressing, etc. stressing, etc. My interpretation of My interpretation of My interpretation of what's happening in the what's happening in the productivity literature productivity literature is that we're is that we're is that we're learning the same thing learning the same thing learning the same thing about mental health about mental health , burnout, etc.: if , burnout, etc.: if , burnout, etc.: if we just we just we just work hard work hard , , , work hard, even if work hard, even if work hard, even if your goal is just your goal is just your goal is just total productivity total productivity , you're not going to achieve it as , you're not going to achieve it as , you're not going to achieve it as effectively by effectively by effectively by doing that. A doing that. A doing that. A four-day workweek four-day workweek four-day workweek produces better produces better produces better results than a results than a results than a five-day one. five-day one. five-day one. For example, For example, For example, rest, sleep, and rest, sleep, and rest, sleep, and relaxation relaxation relaxation improve your improve your improve your performance. performance. performance. There is a lot of evidence on the There is a lot of evidence on the There is a lot of evidence on the effects of sleep and grades effects of sleep and grades effects of sleep and grades that if you that if you that if you take an take an take an hour off from studying hour off from studying hour off from studying to sleep, you to sleep, you will likely study better will likely study better and more successfully over time. However, there is and more successfully over time. However, there is and more successfully over time. However, there is also evidence, such as also evidence, such as also evidence, such as another end another end another end result of achievement result of achievement , which is simply the , which is simply the , which is simply the end end end result of result of result of achieving achieving achieving capitalism, capitalism, capitalism, such as making such as making such as making as much as much as much money as possible, where researchers money as possible, where researchers money as possible, where researchers are learning that it is are learning that it is are learning that it is actually the act of actually the act of resting, resting, focusing on focusing on focusing on happiness, doing what happiness, doing what I'm talking about that I'm talking about that I'm talking about that seems to be important. seems to be important. seems to be important. My favorite My favorite My favorite study from 2025: study from 2025: study from 2025: People have People have People have Spotify Wrapped from 2025, for example, and I Spotify Wrapped from 2025, for example, and I Spotify Wrapped from 2025, for example, and I always say that always say that always say that boring researchers boring researchers boring researchers want to have their want to have their want to have their favorites, it would be favorites, it would be favorites, it would be great if the app great if the app great if the app gave us a list of gave us a list of gave us a list of our favorite our favorite our favorite studies. But my studies. But my studies. But my favorite study from favorite study from favorite study from 2025 was 2025 was 2025 was conducted by conducted by conducted by Oxford Oxford Oxford researcher Jan- researcher Jan- Emmanuel De Neve, Emmanuel De Neve, Emmanuel De Neve, and he collaborated with the and he collaborated with the job search website Indeed, which I'm job search website Indeed, which I'm sure some of sure some of sure some of you know, to you know, to you know, to ask this ask this ask this question. He says question. He says question. He says something like, “There something like, “There something like, “There are 15 million are 15 million are 15 million ratings on Indeed of all these ratings on Indeed of all these ratings on Indeed of all these things about things about things about people’s jobs, like people’s jobs, like people’s jobs, like their salary, etc., their salary, etc., their salary, etc., but one of the ratings but one of the ratings they have is they have is they have is people’s happiness at work people’s happiness at work .” And he says, “Oh, these are .” And he says, “Oh, these are .” And he says, “Oh, these are ratings for 5,000 different ratings for 5,000 different ratings for 5,000 different public companies, public companies, public companies, right? So we right? So we right? So we could do the could do the could do the following. We could following. We could following. We could take the average take the average job happiness score for each job happiness score for each company and company and company and see if that see if that see if that predicts the predicts the predicts the company's stock performance." And we company's stock performance." And we company's stock performance." And we can imagine that this can imagine that this can imagine that this happens in happens in different ways. We could different ways. We could different ways. We could have a theory that, have a theory that, have a theory that, for example, good for example, good for example, good stock performance stock performance stock performance is achieved through is achieved through is achieved through exploitation of exploitation of exploitation of workers, their workers, their workers, their miserable miserable miserable exploitation, pressure exploitation, pressure exploitation, pressure and coercion, but that is exactly how and coercion, but that is exactly how and coercion, but that is exactly how good performance is achieved good performance is achieved good performance is achieved . Jan . Jan . Jan Emmanuel De Neve Emmanuel De Neve Emmanuel De Neve finds exactly finds exactly finds exactly the opposite. There is an the opposite. There is an the opposite. There is an extremely strong extremely strong extremely strong correlation between the correlation between the correlation between the happiest happiest happiest companies and the companies and the companies and the best best best stock performance. stock performance. stock performance. Just a perfect, Just a perfect, Just a perfect, wonderful correlation. wonderful correlation. wonderful correlation. In fact, the correlation In fact, the correlation In fact, the correlation was so was so was so high that De Neve high that De Neve high that De Neve created a stock created a stock created a stock index of the happiest index of the happiest index of the happiest companies. You know, companies. You know, like the S&P 500, where you can like the S&P 500, where you can like the S&P 500, where you can invest in it and it will invest in it and it will invest in it and it will make you money. You make you money. You make you money. You can invest in can invest in ...You can ...You can ...You can look at his look at his look at his website and see this website and see this , the top 100 , the top 100 , the top 100 companies on Indeed, and companies on Indeed, and companies on Indeed, and invest in this. And invest in this. And invest in this. And he found that every time the market has been he found that every time the market has been he found that every time the market has been in the market since in the market since in the market since 2021, I think, until the 2021, I think, until the 2021, I think, until the last last last data set, like 2025, data set, like 2025, data set, like 2025, these 100 these 100 these 100 welfare companies have outperformed the welfare companies have outperformed the welfare companies have outperformed the Dow Jones and the S&P 500. This is Dow Jones and the S&P 500. This is Dow Jones and the S&P 500. This is a little a little a little investment investment investment piece of... You piece of... You piece of... You got it, you got it, you got it, you got it. A got it. A got it. A small small small snack that you can snack that you can snack that you can take with you. take with you. take with you. That's why you came That's why you came That's why you came tonight, is tonight, is tonight, is n't it? n't it? n't it? But my point is that But my point is that But my point is that we have the we have the we have the wrong theory wrong theory wrong theory about productivity. about productivity. about productivity. Whether for companies or Whether for companies or Whether for companies or individuals, we individuals, we individuals, we believe that pushing believe that pushing , pushing, pushing , pushing, pushing is the way to achieve is the way to achieve is the way to achieve more. But perhaps the more. But perhaps the way to achieve way to achieve way to achieve more is more is more is to rest, to rest, to rest, to focus on to focus on to focus on your positive your positive your positive attitude, to take a attitude, to take a attitude, to take a break. I think break. I think break. I think even if all even if all even if all you care about is your you care about is your you care about is your bottom line, you bottom line, you bottom line, you need a different theory need a different theory need a different theory about how to do it about how to do it about how to do it well. The idea is this: well. The idea is this: well. The idea is this: to ask what makes a to ask what makes a to ask what makes a gold medalist gold medalist gold medalist become a gold become a gold become a gold medalist, right? medalist, right? medalist, right? Maybe a rest, Maybe a rest, Maybe a rest, maybe a break. maybe a break. maybe a break. Look at Alyssa Look at Alyssa Look at Alyssa Liu, who we know, we Liu, who we know, we Liu, who we know, we just had this just had this just had this great Olympics. Everyone great Olympics. Everyone great Olympics. Everyone watched her video. I watched her video. I watched her video. I think that's great, think that's great, think that's great, but if you know her but if you know her but if you know her story, you know what story, you know what story, you know what happened: she happened: she happened: she felt felt felt exhausted. So she exhausted. So she exhausted. So she took a break. People took a break. People took a break. People told her, “This is told her, “This is told her, “This is nonsense. You nonsense. You nonsense. You will never be a good will never be a good will never be a good skier. "You skier. "You skier. "You 'll never be a good 'll never be a good 'll never be a good athlete, will you?" athlete, will you?" athlete, will you?" What happened? She What happened? She What happened? She took a break. I took a break. I took a break. I mean, her own mean, her own mean, her own explanation for this is that that's why explanation for this is that that's why she was able to she was able to win, right? So, I win, right? So, I win, right? So, I think that's the point. think that's the point. think that's the point. Even if you want to Even if you want to Even if you want to rush, rush, rush, rush, rush, rush, rush, achieve rush, achieve rush, achieve as much as possible and as much as possible and as much as possible and be a gold be a gold be a gold medalist and a medalist and a medalist and a perfect student at perfect student at perfect student at Dartmouth Dartmouth Dartmouth College, you can College, you can College, you can do it by do it by do it by focusing on focusing on focusing on your well-being your well-being your well-being more than you expect. more than you expect. more than you expect. Wow, that was great, Wow, that was great, Wow, that was great, Lori. Please Lori. Please Lori. Please join me in join me in join me in thanking her for thanking her for ...