What is Social Media Doing to Kids? with Dr. Jean Twenge | The Happiness Lab podcast

Hey, happiness lab listeners. Happy Hey, happiness lab listeners. Happy International Day of Happiness. The International Day of Happiness. The International Day of Happiness. The International Day of Happiness is a International Day of Happiness is a International Day of Happiness is a holiday [music] established by the holiday [music] established by the holiday [music] established by the United Nations as a global day of United Nations as a global day of United Nations as a global day of recognition about the fundamental recognition about the fundamental recognition about the fundamental importance of human happiness. [music] importance of human happiness. [music] importance of human happiness. [music] And on this day each year, the United And on this day each year, the United And on this day each year, the United Nations and its partners release the Nations and its partners release the Nations and its partners release the World Happiness Report, [music] their World Happiness Report, [music] their World Happiness Report, [music] their annual snapshot of how happy people are annual snapshot of how happy people are annual snapshot of how happy people are around the globe. The report is also around the globe. The report is also around the globe. The report is also famous for ranking the happiest famous for ranking the happiest famous for ranking the happiest countries in [music] the world. And this countries in [music] the world. And this countries in [music] the world. And this year, the happiest country is Finland year, the happiest country is Finland year, the happiest country is Finland for the ninth year in a row. So, for the ninth year in a row. So, for the ninth year in a row. So, congratulations to Finland and all its congratulations to Finland and all its congratulations to Finland and all its lucky [music] inhabitants. For a social lucky [music] inhabitants. For a social lucky [music] inhabitants. For a social science nerd like me, the World science nerd like me, the World science nerd like me, the World Happiness Report is an absolute treat. Happiness Report is an absolute treat. Happiness Report is an absolute treat. It brings leading researchers around the It brings leading researchers around the It brings leading researchers around the world together to dig into the world together to dig into the world together to dig into the political, social, and economic [music] political, social, and economic [music] political, social, and economic [music] forces that shape our well-being. Each forces that shape our well-being. Each forces that shape our well-being. Each new edition of the World Happiness new edition of the World Happiness new edition of the World Happiness Report centers around a different theme. Report centers around a different theme. Report centers around a different theme. And this year's theme feels especially And this year's theme feels especially And this year's theme feels especially relevant. relevant. relevant. >> If we're going to think about >> If we're going to think about >> If we're going to think about psychological well-being and happiness psychological well-being and happiness psychological well-being and happiness in the modern age, we have to look in in the modern age, we have to look in in the modern age, we have to look in depth at technology. depth at technology. depth at technology. >> This is Dr. Gene Twangi, [music] one of >> This is Dr. Gene Twangi, [music] one of >> This is Dr. Gene Twangi, [music] one of the researchers behind this year's World the researchers behind this year's World the researchers behind this year's World Happiness Report. Gan is an Happiness Report. Gan is an Happiness Report. Gan is an internationally celebrated psychologist internationally celebrated psychologist internationally celebrated psychologist at San Diego State University. Her at San Diego State University. Her at San Diego State University. Her chapter looks at how young people around chapter looks at how young people around chapter looks at how young people around the world use and respond to social the world use and respond to social the world use and respond to social media. Gan is something of a rock star media. Gan is something of a rock star media. Gan is something of a rock star when it comes to understanding teens and when it comes to understanding teens and when it comes to understanding teens and technology. In fact, she was one of the technology. In fact, she was one of the technology. In fact, she was one of the first people to sound the alarm on how first people to sound the alarm on how first people to sound the alarm on how smartphones might be damaging adolescent smartphones might be damaging adolescent smartphones might be damaging adolescent mental health. [music] The article in mental health. [music] The article in mental health. [music] The article in the Atlantic was an excerpt of my book the Atlantic was an excerpt of my book the Atlantic was an excerpt of my book which came out in August 2017. It was a which came out in August 2017. It was a which came out in August 2017. It was a headline, "Have smartphones destroyed a headline, "Have smartphones destroyed a headline, "Have smartphones destroyed a generation?" generation?" generation?" >> As you can imagine, people had some very >> As you can imagine, people had some very >> As you can imagine, people had some very strong reactions to this title. strong reactions to this title. strong reactions to this title. >> I always like to point out, number one, >> I always like to point out, number one, >> I always like to point out, number one, it's a question, and number two, I it's a question, and number two, I it's a question, and number two, I didn't write it because headlines are didn't write it because headlines are didn't write it because headlines are written by editors, not by the authors, written by editors, not by the authors, written by editors, not by the authors, and they're supposed to be clickbait, and they're supposed to be clickbait, and they're supposed to be clickbait, and it did its job. and it did its job. and it did its job. >> But the article itself was grounded in >> But the article itself was grounded in >> But the article itself was grounded in some pretty revolutionary data. some pretty revolutionary data. some pretty revolutionary data. >> It really came from what I was seeing in >> It really came from what I was seeing in >> It really came from what I was seeing in these big national surveys of teens. All these big national surveys of teens. All these big national surveys of teens. All of a sudden around 2012, more and more of a sudden around 2012, more and more of a sudden around 2012, more and more teens started to say that they felt teens started to say that they felt teens started to say that they felt lonely, that they felt left out, that lonely, that they felt left out, that lonely, that they felt left out, that they felt like they couldn't do anything they felt like they couldn't do anything they felt like they couldn't do anything right, that their lives weren't useful, right, that their lives weren't useful, right, that their lives weren't useful, that they didn't enjoy life. And those that they didn't enjoy life. And those that they didn't enjoy life. And those last three are classic symptoms of last three are classic symptoms of last three are classic symptoms of depression. One of the things I find so depression. One of the things I find so depression. One of the things I find so harrowing about that article, reading it harrowing about that article, reading it harrowing about that article, reading it now, is that you had this sentence that now, is that you had this sentence that now, is that you had this sentence that young people might be quote on the brink young people might be quote on the brink young people might be quote on the brink of a mental health crisis. What has of a mental health crisis. What has of a mental health crisis. What has happened since that that time? I mean, happened since that that time? I mean, happened since that that time? I mean, if you follow that metaphor through, if if you follow that metaphor through, if if you follow that metaphor through, if they were on the brink of a cliff, they they were on the brink of a cliff, they they were on the brink of a cliff, they fell off the cliff. But if our young fell off the cliff. But if our young fell off the cliff. But if our young people have fallen off the cliff, is people have fallen off the cliff, is people have fallen off the cliff, is there any way for them to climb back on there any way for them to climb back on there any way for them to climb back on top? Well, stay tuned [music] because in top? Well, stay tuned [music] because in top? Well, stay tuned [music] because in this episode, Gene and I will explore this episode, Gene and I will explore this episode, Gene and I will explore new data from around the world on how new data from around the world on how new data from around the world on how young people today are using social young people today are using social young people today are using social media and what the latest research shows media and what the latest research shows media and what the latest research shows about how all of us can build healthier about how all of us can build healthier about how all of us can build healthier relationships with these platforms. The relationships with these platforms. The relationships with these platforms. The happiness lab will return right after happiness lab will return right after happiness lab will return right after some quick messages from our sponsors. some quick messages from our sponsors. some quick messages from our sponsors. [music] I was so excited to hear that I was so excited to hear that psychologist Gene Twangi was part of the psychologist Gene Twangi was part of the psychologist Gene Twangi was part of the 2026 World Happiness Report. [music] 2026 World Happiness Report. [music] 2026 World Happiness Report. [music] Jean's been a research hero of mine for Jean's been a research hero of mine for Jean's been a research hero of mine for a while, in large part because she was a while, in large part because she was a while, in large part because she was one of the very first researchers to one of the very first researchers to one of the very first researchers to call out the negative effects of call out the negative effects of call out the negative effects of smartphones on teen happiness. And then smartphones on teen happiness. And then smartphones on teen happiness. And then other folks started to notice this too. other folks started to notice this too. other folks started to notice this too. There was an article in pediatrics about There was an article in pediatrics about There was an article in pediatrics about clinical level depression suddenly going clinical level depression suddenly going clinical level depression suddenly going up around 2012, that emergency room up around 2012, that emergency room up around 2012, that emergency room admissions for self harm were going up, admissions for self harm were going up, admissions for self harm were going up, that suicide rate was going up. So there that suicide rate was going up. So there that suicide rate was going up. So there was a lot of stuff going on with that was a lot of stuff going on with that was a lot of stuff going on with that turning point around 2012. turning point around 2012. turning point around 2012. >> And so what did you think was going on >> And so what did you think was going on >> And so what did you think was going on at first? at first? at first? >> I had no clue. I mean really it was a >> I had no clue. I mean really it was a >> I had no clue. I mean really it was a mystery. I just remember thinking like mystery. I just remember thinking like mystery. I just remember thinking like what's going wrong in the lives of teens what's going wrong in the lives of teens what's going wrong in the lives of teens at that point. And you know when you at that point. And you know when you at that point. And you know when you work with big data sets that go over work with big data sets that go over work with big data sets that go over time when you have one year of data you time when you have one year of data you time when you have one year of data you always have to pause and go okay this always have to pause and go okay this always have to pause and go okay this could be a blip and it might go back to could be a blip and it might go back to could be a blip and it might go back to normal the next year. But it didn't. So normal the next year. But it didn't. So normal the next year. But it didn't. So then I started thinking more broadly. then I started thinking more broadly. then I started thinking more broadly. Well, could it be the economy? That's Well, could it be the economy? That's Well, could it be the economy? That's always kind of the first place that you always kind of the first place that you always kind of the first place that you have to go. It was clearly not the have to go. It was clearly not the have to go. It was clearly not the economy. Those of us who lived through economy. Those of us who lived through economy. Those of us who lived through the Great Recession know how bad that the Great Recession know how bad that the Great Recession know how bad that got. But it was finally finally over by got. But it was finally finally over by got. But it was finally finally over by 2012 and things were getting better in 2012 and things were getting better in 2012 and things were getting better in the US economy. Was a mystery. But at the US economy. Was a mystery. But at the US economy. Was a mystery. But at the same time that I started to notice the same time that I started to notice the same time that I started to notice these trends, I've been working on a few these trends, I've been working on a few these trends, I've been working on a few other projects with these surveys and other projects with these surveys and other projects with these surveys and noticed that around that same turning noticed that around that same turning noticed that around that same turning point in 2012, teens also started to point in 2012, teens also started to point in 2012, teens also started to sleep less. And maybe even more sleep less. And maybe even more sleep less. And maybe even more crucially, teens and young adults are crucially, teens and young adults are crucially, teens and young adults are spending less time hanging out with spending less time hanging out with spending less time hanging out with their friends, going to parties, just their friends, going to parties, just their friends, going to parties, just getting together with friends informally getting together with friends informally getting together with friends informally and socializing. All of it was going and socializing. All of it was going and socializing. All of it was going down. And I thought about all of those down. And I thought about all of those down. And I thought about all of those things. You know, we have depression things. You know, we have depression things. You know, we have depression going up. We have less time with friends going up. We have less time with friends going up. We have less time with friends in person, less time sleeping. What in person, less time sleeping. What in person, less time sleeping. What might possibly explain that? And then I might possibly explain that? And then I might possibly explain that? And then I saw Pew research had data on ownership saw Pew research had data on ownership saw Pew research had data on ownership of smartphones. And it turns out that of smartphones. And it turns out that of smartphones. And it turns out that the ownership of smartphones among the ownership of smartphones among the ownership of smartphones among Americans passed 50% around the end of Americans passed 50% around the end of Americans passed 50% around the end of 2012. And that started to coalesce into 2012. And that started to coalesce into 2012. And that started to coalesce into a theory that it was the rise of a theory that it was the rise of a theory that it was the rise of smartphones, the rise of social media smartphones, the rise of social media smartphones, the rise of social media that might explain these trends. that might explain these trends. that might explain these trends. >> Did we know about the mechanisms how >> Did we know about the mechanisms how >> Did we know about the mechanisms how technology might be affecting kids technology might be affecting kids technology might be affecting kids mental health? I mean, I had that theory mental health? I mean, I had that theory mental health? I mean, I had that theory about displacing sleep and displacing about displacing sleep and displacing about displacing sleep and displacing inerson social interaction with friends. inerson social interaction with friends. inerson social interaction with friends. So, that seemed like one very clear So, that seemed like one very clear So, that seemed like one very clear mechanism, but we didn't know as much, I mechanism, but we didn't know as much, I mechanism, but we didn't know as much, I think, at the time about some of the think, at the time about some of the think, at the time about some of the other mechanisms. But even back then, other mechanisms. But even back then, other mechanisms. But even back then, people were certainly talking about, people were certainly talking about, people were certainly talking about, hey, there's this competition for likes hey, there's this competition for likes hey, there's this competition for likes and followers. There's the body image and followers. There's the body image and followers. There's the body image problems cropping up on Instagram problems cropping up on Instagram problems cropping up on Instagram that people are behaving compulsively that people are behaving compulsively that people are behaving compulsively when it comes to their phones and social when it comes to their phones and social when it comes to their phones and social media. We didn't know all the ins and media. We didn't know all the ins and media. We didn't know all the ins and outs of that, but teens knew. That's outs of that, but teens knew. That's outs of that, but teens knew. That's what I also think is really interesting what I also think is really interesting what I also think is really interesting is when I first started to give talks on is when I first started to give talks on is when I first started to give talks on this in 2017 2018, I was really afraid this in 2017 2018, I was really afraid this in 2017 2018, I was really afraid that the teens in my audience would be that the teens in my audience would be that the teens in my audience would be like, "You're old. You don't know like, "You're old. You don't know like, "You're old. You don't know anything. This stuff is fine. We love anything. This stuff is fine. We love anything. This stuff is fine. We love it." And that's not even close to what it." And that's not even close to what it." And that's not even close to what happened. happened. happened. >> It's so interesting in part because >> It's so interesting in part because >> It's so interesting in part because those were the early days of some of those were the early days of some of those were the early days of some of these technologies, you know, that was these technologies, you know, that was these technologies, you know, that was like old school Instagram that wasn't like old school Instagram that wasn't like old school Instagram that wasn't like reals and all the stuff that sucks like reals and all the stuff that sucks like reals and all the stuff that sucks them in even more. them in even more. them in even more. >> Yeah, exactly. >> Yeah, exactly. >> Yeah, exactly. >> So, give the listeners a sense of just >> So, give the listeners a sense of just >> So, give the listeners a sense of just how bad the statistics are these days. how bad the statistics are these days. how bad the statistics are these days. >> Clinical level depression among teens >> Clinical level depression among teens >> Clinical level depression among teens doubled between 2011 and 2019 before the doubled between 2011 and 2019 before the doubled between 2011 and 2019 before the pandemic was on the scene. That's how pandemic was on the scene. That's how pandemic was on the scene. That's how big the problem already was. But it's big the problem already was. But it's big the problem already was. But it's pretty common to see, especially for pretty common to see, especially for pretty common to see, especially for depression and anxiety, heavy users of depression and anxiety, heavy users of depression and anxiety, heavy users of social media are usually somewhere social media are usually somewhere social media are usually somewhere between 50% and 200% more likely to that between 50% and 200% more likely to that between 50% and 200% more likely to that some kind of criteria for clinically some kind of criteria for clinically some kind of criteria for clinically significant depression or high significant depression or high significant depression or high depression. depression. depression. >> And so now that you've been studying >> And so now that you've been studying >> And so now that you've been studying this connection for so long, what are this connection for so long, what are this connection for so long, what are some of the new things that we've some of the new things that we've some of the new things that we've learned? learned? learned? >> We just have a lot more data from a lot >> We just have a lot more data from a lot >> We just have a lot more data from a lot more sources. Now when I wrote IGN there more sources. Now when I wrote IGN there more sources. Now when I wrote IGN there were really as far as I knew only three were really as far as I knew only three were really as far as I knew only three experimental studies on social media experimental studies on social media experimental studies on social media reduction or abstinence and then looking reduction or abstinence and then looking reduction or abstinence and then looking at outcomes just in the last year we've at outcomes just in the last year we've at outcomes just in the last year we've had several meta analyses come out had several meta analyses come out had several meta analyses come out because there's now so many social media because there's now so many social media because there's now so many social media reduction experiments. reduction experiments. reduction experiments. >> So these meta analyses are big studies >> So these meta analyses are big studies >> So these meta analyses are big studies of studies where not only do we have of studies where not only do we have of studies where not only do we have more experimental studies, you put all more experimental studies, you put all more experimental studies, you put all the experimental studies together the experimental studies together the experimental studies together statistically and ask what's going on. statistically and ask what's going on. statistically and ask what's going on. >> Exactly. So the the two most recent ones >> Exactly. So the the two most recent ones >> Exactly. So the the two most recent ones that came out in 2025 both show a that came out in 2025 both show a that came out in 2025 both show a significant reduction in depression and significant reduction in depression and significant reduction in depression and then a significant increase in then a significant increase in then a significant increase in psychological well-being. So happiness, psychological well-being. So happiness, psychological well-being. So happiness, life satisfaction, those types of life satisfaction, those types of life satisfaction, those types of measures when people give up or cut back measures when people give up or cut back measures when people give up or cut back on social media, especially if they do on social media, especially if they do on social media, especially if they do that for 3 weeks or more. What's that for 3 weeks or more. What's that for 3 weeks or more. What's interesting though is you can't exactly interesting though is you can't exactly interesting though is you can't exactly really ethically do kind of the ideal really ethically do kind of the ideal really ethically do kind of the ideal experiment in this area, which would be experiment in this area, which would be experiment in this area, which would be to randomly assign a bunch of to randomly assign a bunch of to randomly assign a bunch of 12-year-olds to spend 8 hours a day on 12-year-olds to spend 8 hours a day on 12-year-olds to spend 8 hours a day on social media. Not really ethical. And social media. Not really ethical. And social media. Not really ethical. And even doing that with 22-year-olds would even doing that with 22-year-olds would even doing that with 22-year-olds would probably not be ethical. So that's why probably not be ethical. So that's why probably not be ethical. So that's why most of the studies have focused on kind most of the studies have focused on kind most of the studies have focused on kind of the opposite premise of giving up or of the opposite premise of giving up or of the opposite premise of giving up or reducing social media. By definition, reducing social media. By definition, reducing social media. By definition, what those studies are doing is taking what those studies are doing is taking what those studies are doing is taking people from the average use of social people from the average use of social people from the average use of social media to light. And this, I think, is an media to light. And this, I think, is an media to light. And this, I think, is an opportunity for future research because opportunity for future research because opportunity for future research because that's not where the action is in the that's not where the action is in the that's not where the action is in the correlational data. Not even close. It's correlational data. Not even close. It's correlational data. Not even close. It's the heavy users where you really see the heavy users where you really see the heavy users where you really see high rates of depression and high rates of depression and high rates of depression and unhappiness. So, I'm hoping there'll be unhappiness. So, I'm hoping there'll be unhappiness. So, I'm hoping there'll be a study that will take the heavy users a study that will take the heavy users a study that will take the heavy users and try to get them to cut back. I mean, and try to get them to cut back. I mean, and try to get them to cut back. I mean, that might be a little bit of a that might be a little bit of a that might be a little bit of a challenge, but I would expect you to see challenge, but I would expect you to see challenge, but I would expect you to see even bigger effect sizes there. even bigger effect sizes there. even bigger effect sizes there. >> Another thing I know you've talked a lot >> Another thing I know you've talked a lot >> Another thing I know you've talked a lot about is this idea that we need better about is this idea that we need better about is this idea that we need better data when it comes to cross-cultural data when it comes to cross-cultural data when it comes to cross-cultural social media use. And that's where this social media use. And that's where this social media use. And that's where this new World Happiness Report fits in. And new World Happiness Report fits in. And new World Happiness Report fits in. And so before you started the World so before you started the World so before you started the World Happiness Report, what were some of the Happiness Report, what were some of the Happiness Report, what were some of the open questions that you wanted to look open questions that you wanted to look open questions that you wanted to look at with this new data set? at with this new data set? at with this new data set? >> So this is the PISA data set. PISA >> So this is the PISA data set. PISA >> So this is the PISA data set. PISA stands for the program for international stands for the program for international stands for the program for international student assessment. Its primary purpose student assessment. Its primary purpose student assessment. Its primary purpose is to look at academic performance in is to look at academic performance in is to look at academic performance in math, reading, and science. And it's of math, reading, and science. And it's of math, reading, and science. And it's of teenagers. So, it looks at 15 and 16 teenagers. So, it looks at 15 and 16 teenagers. So, it looks at 15 and 16 year olds in countries around the world, year olds in countries around the world, year olds in countries around the world, somewhere between 30 and 40, depending somewhere between 30 and 40, depending somewhere between 30 and 40, depending on what measures you're using. And we on what measures you're using. And we on what measures you're using. And we know from international data sets know from international data sets know from international data sets including PISA that there's been an including PISA that there's been an including PISA that there's been an increase over the years in the number of increase over the years in the number of increase over the years in the number of adolescence who say that they're lonely adolescence who say that they're lonely adolescence who say that they're lonely in the number of adolescence who say in the number of adolescence who say in the number of adolescence who say that they have psychological that they have psychological that they have psychological difficulties like anxiety. But what difficulties like anxiety. But what difficulties like anxiety. But what hasn't been as present is those hasn't been as present is those hasn't been as present is those international data sets asking about international data sets asking about international data sets asking about hours per day spent on social media and hours per day spent on social media and hours per day spent on social media and then also having some other measure of then also having some other measure of then also having some other measure of mental health or psychological mental health or psychological mental health or psychological well-being. And so the 2022 well-being. And so the 2022 well-being. And so the 2022 administration of PISA does that. administration of PISA does that. administration of PISA does that. >> So you had the PISA data set from 2022. >> So you had the PISA data set from 2022. >> So you had the PISA data set from 2022. What did you find? So for girls around What did you find? So for girls around What did you find? So for girls around the world, there's a significant link the world, there's a significant link the world, there's a significant link between spending a lot of time on social between spending a lot of time on social between spending a lot of time on social media and having lower life media and having lower life media and having lower life satisfaction. That was pretty universal satisfaction. That was pretty universal satisfaction. That was pretty universal across the different regions, it was across the different regions, it was across the different regions, it was strongest in English-sp speakaking strongest in English-sp speakaking strongest in English-sp speakaking countries and and Western Europe. In countries and and Western Europe. In countries and and Western Europe. In Western Europe, for girls, heavy users Western Europe, for girls, heavy users Western Europe, for girls, heavy users were 63% more likely to report low light were 63% more likely to report low light were 63% more likely to report low light satisfaction than light users. In Asia, satisfaction than light users. In Asia, satisfaction than light users. In Asia, they were 46% more likely. Overall, the they were 46% more likely. Overall, the they were 46% more likely. Overall, the average across the world, 49% more average across the world, 49% more average across the world, 49% more likely. So, so far, the Pisa data lines likely. So, so far, the Pisa data lines likely. So, so far, the Pisa data lines up with the idea that very heavy social up with the idea that very heavy social up with the idea that very heavy social media use isn't [music] great for teen media use isn't [music] great for teen media use isn't [music] great for teen girls well-being. In the report, heavy girls well-being. In the report, heavy girls well-being. In the report, heavy use meant spending about 5 hours or more use meant spending about 5 hours or more use meant spending about 5 hours or more a day on social media. [music] But when a day on social media. [music] But when a day on social media. [music] But when Gene looked beyond girls, the story Gene looked beyond girls, the story Gene looked beyond girls, the story started to get a little more started to get a little more started to get a little more complicated. complicated. complicated. >> For boys, it was a little bit more of a >> For boys, it was a little bit more of a >> For boys, it was a little bit more of a mixed picture. You do see a link, mixed picture. You do see a link, mixed picture. You do see a link, especially again in the UK and Western especially again in the UK and Western especially again in the UK and Western Europe, that spending more time on Europe, that spending more time on Europe, that spending more time on social media is linked to lower life social media is linked to lower life social media is linked to lower life satisfaction, but that wasn't universal. satisfaction, but that wasn't universal. satisfaction, but that wasn't universal. In some regions, we don't see much of an In some regions, we don't see much of an In some regions, we don't see much of an effect at all. For girls, it seems to effect at all. For girls, it seems to effect at all. For girls, it seems to have a bigger impact on their happiness, have a bigger impact on their happiness, have a bigger impact on their happiness, their life satisfaction, their body their life satisfaction, their body their life satisfaction, their body image, everything compared to boys. image, everything compared to boys. image, everything compared to boys. >> But the strangest results came from the >> But the strangest results came from the >> But the strangest results came from the boys who were the heaviest users of boys who were the heaviest users of boys who were the heaviest users of social media. Think seven plus hours a social media. Think seven plus hours a social media. Think seven plus hours a day on these platforms. There were some day on these platforms. There were some day on these platforms. There were some surprises in here, especially in the surprises in here, especially in the surprises in here, especially in the data for boys. The heaviest users of data for boys. The heaviest users of data for boys. The heaviest users of social media also were a little bit more social media also were a little bit more social media also were a little bit more likely to say that they had the highest likely to say that they had the highest likely to say that they had the highest slice satisfaction. slice satisfaction. slice satisfaction. So, choosing a 10 on the 0 to 10 scale, So, choosing a 10 on the 0 to 10 scale, So, choosing a 10 on the 0 to 10 scale, that was a mystery that I'm still trying that was a mystery that I'm still trying that was a mystery that I'm still trying to figure out. Danny Blanchflower, who's to figure out. Danny Blanchflower, who's to figure out. Danny Blanchflower, who's an economist at Dartmouth, his work with an economist at Dartmouth, his work with an economist at Dartmouth, his work with Pisa, he noticed that especially for Pisa, he noticed that especially for Pisa, he noticed that especially for boys and especially in the boys and especially in the boys and especially in the non-English-speaking countries that non-English-speaking countries that non-English-speaking countries that those who were choosing a 10 on life those who were choosing a 10 on life those who were choosing a 10 on life satisfaction also had very low satisfaction also had very low satisfaction also had very low standardized test scores. Maybe there's standardized test scores. Maybe there's standardized test scores. Maybe there's a reading comprehension problem. There's a reading comprehension problem. There's a reading comprehension problem. There's something going on there that I don't something going on there that I don't something going on there that I don't know. We're still trying to figure out. know. We're still trying to figure out. know. We're still trying to figure out. Another interesting thing you saw in the Another interesting thing you saw in the Another interesting thing you saw in the World Happiness Report data as I World Happiness Report data as I World Happiness Report data as I understand it is there was this little understand it is there was this little understand it is there was this little slight bump in life satisfaction when slight bump in life satisfaction when slight bump in life satisfaction when teens were on social media just a little teens were on social media just a little teens were on social media just a little bit. What was that about? bit. What was that about? bit. What was that about? >> Yeah. So for girls for example is where >> Yeah. So for girls for example is where >> Yeah. So for girls for example is where we really see this pattern across most we really see this pattern across most we really see this pattern across most of the regions. Those who said that they of the regions. Those who said that they of the regions. Those who said that they used social media for less than an hour used social media for less than an hour used social media for less than an hour a day had the highest mean life a day had the highest mean life a day had the highest mean life satisfaction. It could be that. Yeah, if satisfaction. It could be that. Yeah, if satisfaction. It could be that. Yeah, if you're using social media in that you're using social media in that you're using social media in that limited way, maybe you're just limited way, maybe you're just limited way, maybe you're just communicating with your friends a little communicating with your friends a little communicating with your friends a little bit, seeing a couple funny videos, and bit, seeing a couple funny videos, and bit, seeing a couple funny videos, and then getting off. But it's such an then getting off. But it's such an then getting off. But it's such an interesting pattern because the mean interesting pattern because the mean interesting pattern because the mean life satisfaction is a little lower for life satisfaction is a little lower for life satisfaction is a little lower for the nonusers of social media. But at the nonusers of social media. But at the nonusers of social media. But at least for girls, we also see in most least for girls, we also see in most least for girls, we also see in most regions that those who didn't use social regions that those who didn't use social regions that those who didn't use social media at all were the most likely to media at all were the most likely to media at all were the most likely to have that very high life satisfaction, have that very high life satisfaction, have that very high life satisfaction, choosing a 10 on the 0 to 10 scale. So choosing a 10 on the 0 to 10 scale. So choosing a 10 on the 0 to 10 scale. So to clarify, on average, the happiest to clarify, on average, the happiest to clarify, on average, the happiest girls were the light users of social girls were the light users of social girls were the light users of social media, [music] the ones spending less media, [music] the ones spending less media, [music] the ones spending less than an hour a day on these platforms. than an hour a day on these platforms. than an hour a day on these platforms. But when Gene looked at the teens But when Gene looked at the teens But when Gene looked at the teens reporting the very highest life reporting the very highest life reporting the very highest life satisfaction, [music] satisfaction, [music] satisfaction, [music] that perfect 10 out of 10, those tended that perfect 10 out of 10, those tended that perfect 10 out of 10, those tended to be the girls who said they didn't use to be the girls who said they didn't use to be the girls who said they didn't use social media at [music] all. social media at [music] all. social media at [music] all. >> So it's a little more complex than some >> So it's a little more complex than some >> So it's a little more complex than some of the other studies on this topic. of the other studies on this topic. of the other studies on this topic. across the world. The report showed that across the world. The report showed that across the world. The report showed that minus a few puzzling exceptions, [music] minus a few puzzling exceptions, [music] minus a few puzzling exceptions, [music] heavy use of social media is really not heavy use of social media is really not heavy use of social media is really not great for young people's well-being. great for young people's well-being. great for young people's well-being. Which means that if we really care about Which means that if we really care about Which means that if we really care about teen happiness, we should find ways to teen happiness, we should find ways to teen happiness, we should find ways to limit their time on these platforms to limit their time on these platforms to limit their time on these platforms to less than an hour a day. But how on less than an hour a day. But how on less than an hour a day. But how on earth do [music] you do that in a world earth do [music] you do that in a world earth do [music] you do that in a world where these tools have become completely where these tools have become completely where these tools have become completely ubiquitous forms of social connection ubiquitous forms of social connection ubiquitous forms of social connection and entertainment? [music] and entertainment? [music] and entertainment? [music] We'll be back with Jean's answer to that We'll be back with Jean's answer to that We'll be back with Jean's answer to that when the happiness lab returns from this when the happiness lab returns from this when the happiness lab returns from this quick break. [music] When psychologist Gene Twangi first When psychologist Gene Twangi first began researching the connection between began researching the connection between began researching the connection between social media and teen mental health, it social media and teen mental health, it social media and teen mental health, it was mostly an academic question. But was mostly an academic question. But was mostly an academic question. But over time, this issue has become much over time, this issue has become much over time, this issue has become much more personal, both for her and for the more personal, both for her and for the more personal, both for her and for the three daughters she's been raising. It's three daughters she's been raising. It's three daughters she's been raising. It's this family challenge that Gan discusses this family challenge that Gan discusses this family challenge that Gan discusses in her most recent book, 10 rules for in her most recent book, 10 rules for in her most recent book, 10 rules for raising kids in a high-tech world. raising kids in a high-tech world. raising kids in a high-tech world. >> So, in uh 2016, when I was working on >> So, in uh 2016, when I was working on >> So, in uh 2016, when I was working on that research, they were 9, six, and that research, they were 9, six, and that research, they were 9, six, and four, and now they're 19, 16, and 14. four, and now they're 19, 16, and 14. four, and now they're 19, 16, and 14. So, it seems like the adolescence you So, it seems like the adolescence you So, it seems like the adolescence you are studying have turned into are studying have turned into are studying have turned into adolescence that are in your own life adolescence that are in your own life adolescence that are in your own life and in your own home and who have their and in your own home and who have their and in your own home and who have their own technology struggles in your house. own technology struggles in your house. own technology struggles in your house. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> What's that been like? >> What's that been like? >> What's that been like? >> It's been interesting. I mean, pretty >> It's been interesting. I mean, pretty >> It's been interesting. I mean, pretty much everybody I know who's a kid over much everybody I know who's a kid over much everybody I know who's a kid over the age of about five and many with the age of about five and many with the age of about five and many with toddlers too are struggling with this. toddlers too are struggling with this. toddlers too are struggling with this. And I think it becomes especially hard, And I think it becomes especially hard, And I think it becomes especially hard, you know, late elementary school when you know, late elementary school when you know, late elementary school when more kids start to get smartphones when more kids start to get smartphones when more kids start to get smartphones when more kids end up having school laptops more kids end up having school laptops more kids end up having school laptops and then middle school hits and then the and then middle school hits and then the and then middle school hits and then the smartphone seems to become almost the smartphone seems to become almost the smartphone seems to become almost the norm and so does the school laptop and norm and so does the school laptop and norm and so does the school laptop and the devices are multiplying and it just the devices are multiplying and it just the devices are multiplying and it just becomes really hard. So the collision of becomes really hard. So the collision of becomes really hard. So the collision of my research life and my life as a mom my research life and my life as a mom my research life and my life as a mom trying to figure out how to stem this trying to figure out how to stem this trying to figure out how to stem this tide and how to make the best choices tide and how to make the best choices tide and how to make the best choices for my own family resulted in the 10 for my own family resulted in the 10 for my own family resulted in the 10 rules book. I was frustrated because so rules book. I was frustrated because so rules book. I was frustrated because so much of the advice that was out there, much of the advice that was out there, much of the advice that was out there, whether it was online or in other books whether it was online or in other books whether it was online or in other books or other experts talking about in or other experts talking about in or other experts talking about in interviews, it was squishy. Like what interviews, it was squishy. Like what interviews, it was squishy. Like what age should a child get a smartphone? It age should a child get a smartphone? It age should a child get a smartphone? It was it depends. So I've been asked that was it depends. So I've been asked that was it depends. So I've been asked that for 10 years. When I first got asked for 10 years. When I first got asked for 10 years. When I first got asked that, I'm like, "Dear in the headlights, that, I'm like, "Dear in the headlights, that, I'm like, "Dear in the headlights, I have no idea." So, I kind of went back I have no idea." So, I kind of went back I have no idea." So, I kind of went back to the it depend. And then I realized at to the it depend. And then I realized at to the it depend. And then I realized at some point that's actually horrible some point that's actually horrible some point that's actually horrible advice. Can you imagine having this advice. Can you imagine having this advice. Can you imagine having this discussion with your 12-year-old? We'll discussion with your 12-year-old? We'll discussion with your 12-year-old? We'll do this when you're ready. We'll do this do this when you're ready. We'll do this do this when you're ready. We'll do this when you're the most mature. They're when you're the most mature. They're when you're the most mature. They're going to bug you every minute of every going to bug you every minute of every going to bug you every minute of every day. Try to convince you that they're day. Try to convince you that they're day. Try to convince you that they're ready and they're mature and so on. You ready and they're mature and so on. You ready and they're mature and so on. You need to draw a line in the sand like we need to draw a line in the sand like we need to draw a line in the sand like we do for alcohol and driving and do for alcohol and driving and do for alcohol and driving and everything else with teenagers. Let's everything else with teenagers. Let's everything else with teenagers. Let's choose an age and run with it because choose an age and run with it because choose an age and run with it because that's easier. If you do like we ended that's easier. If you do like we ended that's easier. If you do like we ended up doing in my house, you get your first up doing in my house, you get your first up doing in my house, you get your first smartphone with your driver's license, smartphone with your driver's license, smartphone with your driver's license, then that's it. It's a line in the sand. then that's it. It's a line in the sand. then that's it. It's a line in the sand. It's done. Conversation's over. It's done. Conversation's over. It's done. Conversation's over. >> Why is a driver's license so key there? >> Why is a driver's license so key there? >> Why is a driver's license so key there? >> So, giving kids real world freedom, the >> So, giving kids real world freedom, the >> So, giving kids real world freedom, the ability to get around on their own, ability to get around on their own, ability to get around on their own, which is another huge generational which is another huge generational which is another huge generational change that kids and teens don't have as change that kids and teens don't have as change that kids and teens don't have as much independence as they used to. High much independence as they used to. High much independence as they used to. High school seniors are a lot less likely to school seniors are a lot less likely to school seniors are a lot less likely to have their driver's license now than have their driver's license now than have their driver's license now than they were in the 80s, for example. And I they were in the 80s, for example. And I they were in the 80s, for example. And I like tying the driver's license to the like tying the driver's license to the like tying the driver's license to the smartphone because, you know, first smartphone because, you know, first smartphone because, you know, first smartphone's a tool. It's useful when smartphone's a tool. It's useful when smartphone's a tool. It's useful when you start driving. I like the maps app. you start driving. I like the maps app. you start driving. I like the maps app. Is good to have that. But it's also then Is good to have that. But it's also then Is good to have that. But it's also then it's not the choice that so many teens it's not the choice that so many teens it's not the choice that so many teens have of, well, I don't have that have of, well, I don't have that have of, well, I don't have that license. I don't have a way to get license. I don't have a way to get license. I don't have a way to get around. I really want to spend time with around. I really want to spend time with around. I really want to spend time with my friends. Mom and dad are busy, they my friends. Mom and dad are busy, they my friends. Mom and dad are busy, they can't drive me, so let's just go on can't drive me, so let's just go on can't drive me, so let's just go on Snapchat. So if the smartphone's with Snapchat. So if the smartphone's with Snapchat. So if the smartphone's with the driver's license, then you don't the driver's license, then you don't the driver's license, then you don't have that false choice. Then it's I can have that false choice. Then it's I can have that false choice. Then it's I can get in that car and go do something with get in that car and go do something with get in that car and go do something with my friends. my friends. my friends. >> It also gets the kids who are a little >> It also gets the kids who are a little >> It also gets the kids who are a little reluctant to get their driver's license reluctant to get their driver's license reluctant to get their driver's license getting their driver's license, which is getting their driver's license, which is getting their driver's license, which is awesome. awesome. awesome. >> Exactly. And I know that because that's >> Exactly. And I know that because that's >> Exactly. And I know that because that's my 16-year-old. [laughter] I don't think my 16-year-old. [laughter] I don't think my 16-year-old. [laughter] I don't think she would be motivated to get that she would be motivated to get that she would be motivated to get that license if it wasn't for it being tied license if it wasn't for it being tied license if it wasn't for it being tied to the phone. to the phone. to the phone. >> So interesting. In a big city, you can >> So interesting. In a big city, you can >> So interesting. In a big city, you can modify that if a kid's at least 16 and modify that if a kid's at least 16 and modify that if a kid's at least 16 and getting around the city, you know, on getting around the city, you know, on getting around the city, you know, on public transportation. I live out in the public transportation. I live out in the public transportation. I live out in the suburbs, so it's the driver's license suburbs, so it's the driver's license suburbs, so it's the driver's license here, but in the middle of New York, it here, but in the middle of New York, it here, but in the middle of New York, it would be different. would be different. would be different. >> And as you point out, as a society, we >> And as you point out, as a society, we >> And as you point out, as a society, we do this for so many other things. When do this for so many other things. When do this for so many other things. When are they going to vote? When can they are they going to vote? When can they are they going to vote? When can they join the military? When can they drive? join the military? When can they drive? join the military? When can they drive? We have rules about this. And that's one We have rules about this. And that's one We have rules about this. And that's one of the first things that you talk about of the first things that you talk about of the first things that you talk about in your book, why it's called 10 rules, in your book, why it's called 10 rules, in your book, why it's called 10 rules, is that you argue that we need rules, is that you argue that we need rules, is that you argue that we need rules, not just conversations. not just conversations. not just conversations. >> And I always want to say from the >> And I always want to say from the >> And I always want to say from the outset, we should have the outset, we should have the outset, we should have the conversations, too. I have a list of conversations, too. I have a list of conversations, too. I have a list of things you should talk to your kid about things you should talk to your kid about things you should talk to your kid about in terms of, you know, online safety and in terms of, you know, online safety and in terms of, you know, online safety and everything else, but they're not enough. everything else, but they're not enough. everything else, but they're not enough. They're not enough against the peer They're not enough against the peer They're not enough against the peer pressure, the billions of dollars that pressure, the billions of dollars that pressure, the billions of dollars that social media companies have poured into social media companies have poured into social media companies have poured into algorithms. It's just not enough. And algorithms. It's just not enough. And algorithms. It's just not enough. And that's why it is helpful to have the that's why it is helpful to have the that's why it is helpful to have the rules to try to do everything you can to rules to try to do everything you can to rules to try to do everything you can to keep them off social media until they're keep them off social media until they're keep them off social media until they're at least 16, if not 18. And that could at least 16, if not 18. And that could at least 16, if not 18. And that could be hard to do, but it is easier if when be hard to do, but it is easier if when be hard to do, but it is easier if when you give them a phone, don't give them you give them a phone, don't give them you give them a phone, don't give them an actual smartphone. Give them a flip an actual smartphone. Give them a flip an actual smartphone. Give them a flip phone or give them what my kids have is phone or give them what my kids have is phone or give them what my kids have is a phone designed for kids. I call them a phone designed for kids. I call them a phone designed for kids. I call them basic phones. They're calling it a kid basic phones. They're calling it a kid basic phones. They're calling it a kid phone. Then they don't want to use it. phone. Then they don't want to use it. phone. Then they don't want to use it. You know, even at 10, you know, oh, I You know, even at 10, you know, oh, I You know, even at 10, you know, oh, I don't want the little kid phone. But don't want the little kid phone. But don't want the little kid phone. But those types of phones look like an those types of phones look like an those types of phones look like an Android phone, so they don't stand out Android phone, so they don't stand out Android phone, so they don't stand out as much. They can still text their as much. They can still text their as much. They can still text their friends. So, we have to counter that friends. So, we have to counter that friends. So, we have to counter that narrative of like, if my kid doesn't narrative of like, if my kid doesn't narrative of like, if my kid doesn't have a smartphone or if my kid doesn't have a smartphone or if my kid doesn't have a smartphone or if my kid doesn't have social media, they'll be left out. have social media, they'll be left out. have social media, they'll be left out. I'm here to tell you it's not true. Your I'm here to tell you it's not true. Your I'm here to tell you it's not true. Your kids can absolutely have friends and kids can absolutely have friends and kids can absolutely have friends and communicate with them without social communicate with them without social communicate with them without social media. But there's generally in most of media. But there's generally in most of media. But there's generally in most of these no internet browser, no social these no internet browser, no social these no internet browser, no social media, no gambling apps, no dating apps, media, no gambling apps, no dating apps, media, no gambling apps, no dating apps, and no AI girlfriends and boyfriends. and no AI girlfriends and boyfriends. and no AI girlfriends and boyfriends. That last one is the one that terrifies That last one is the one that terrifies That last one is the one that terrifies me the most these days is that if you me the most these days is that if you me the most these days is that if you hand your kid a smartphone with no hand your kid a smartphone with no hand your kid a smartphone with no parental controls on it, there is parental controls on it, there is parental controls on it, there is nothing to stop them from having their nothing to stop them from having their nothing to stop them from having their first romantic relationship, romantic in first romantic relationship, romantic in first romantic relationship, romantic in quotes, with an AI chatbot. quotes, with an AI chatbot. quotes, with an AI chatbot. >> Oh man, could you imagine if back in >> Oh man, could you imagine if back in >> Oh man, could you imagine if back in 2016 when you were first looking at 2016 when you were first looking at 2016 when you were first looking at this, we knew that this was like on the this, we knew that this was like on the this, we knew that this was like on the horizon yet another thing to worry about horizon yet another thing to worry about horizon yet another thing to worry about with our kids. with our kids. with our kids. >> It's incredible. It's just becoming >> It's incredible. It's just becoming >> It's incredible. It's just becoming increasingly common for teens to be increasingly common for teens to be increasingly common for teens to be wanting to do AI sexy chat or AI wanting to do AI sexy chat or AI wanting to do AI sexy chat or AI girlfriends or even just for platonic girlfriends or even just for platonic girlfriends or even just for platonic friendship. They're turning to them for friendship. They're turning to them for friendship. They're turning to them for advice and companionship. advice and companionship. advice and companionship. And we already have a loneliness crisis. And we already have a loneliness crisis. And we already have a loneliness crisis. We already have a lot of teens who are We already have a lot of teens who are We already have a lot of teens who are alone in their bedrooms way too much and alone in their bedrooms way too much and alone in their bedrooms way too much and not getting together with friends in not getting together with friends in not getting together with friends in person. So, what is that going to do to person. So, what is that going to do to person. So, what is that going to do to their friendships and their their friendships and their their friendships and their relationships when they've had these relationships when they've had these relationships when they've had these early experiences with these early experiences with these early experiences with these psychopantic chat bots that always tell psychopantic chat bots that always tell psychopantic chat bots that always tell them they're right, that never sleep, them they're right, that never sleep, them they're right, that never sleep, that don't have any of their own needs. that don't have any of their own needs. that don't have any of their own needs. It's really scary. It just reinforces It's really scary. It just reinforces It's really scary. It just reinforces and makes even more important the need and makes even more important the need and makes even more important the need for having some concrete rules. for having some concrete rules. for having some concrete rules. >> I know you've talked about this idea >> I know you've talked about this idea >> I know you've talked about this idea that the adults are in charge, which is that the adults are in charge, which is that the adults are in charge, which is one of your first rules. Why is this so one of your first rules. Why is this so one of your first rules. Why is this so critical to remember? critical to remember? critical to remember? >> Look, you know, I think a lot of parents >> Look, you know, I think a lot of parents >> Look, you know, I think a lot of parents now, and I put myself in this category now, and I put myself in this category now, and I put myself in this category when we have kids, we think it's kind of when we have kids, we think it's kind of when we have kids, we think it's kind of weird that we're the authority figure weird that we're the authority figure weird that we're the authority figure now. Even if you wait till you're older now. Even if you wait till you're older now. Even if you wait till you're older to have kids, like I did, you know, to have kids, like I did, you know, to have kids, like I did, you know, like, wait, am I in charge now? What's like, wait, am I in charge now? What's like, wait, am I in charge now? What's going on with this? We live in an going on with this? We live in an going on with this? We live in an individualistic society. We live in an individualistic society. We live in an individualistic society. We live in an era when we have the idea that everybody era when we have the idea that everybody era when we have the idea that everybody is equal, but you're the parent and you is equal, but you're the parent and you is equal, but you're the parent and you have to take on a little bit of a have to take on a little bit of a have to take on a little bit of a different role. That feels unnatural to different role. That feels unnatural to different role. That feels unnatural to a lot of us. I think our own parents a lot of us. I think our own parents a lot of us. I think our own parents said no and they said no a lot and said no and they said no a lot and said no and they said no a lot and sometimes they didn't even have a good sometimes they didn't even have a good sometimes they didn't even have a good reason and yet we seem kind of afraid to reason and yet we seem kind of afraid to reason and yet we seem kind of afraid to do that especially with technology. do that especially with technology. do that especially with technology. >> Problem is then of course parents are >> Problem is then of course parents are >> Problem is then of course parents are disappointing their kids at least in the disappointing their kids at least in the disappointing their kids at least in the short term but this is something you short term but this is something you short term but this is something you point out in the book as well and also point out in the book as well and also point out in the book as well and also something that we talk a lot about in something that we talk a lot about in something that we talk a lot about in the happiness lab this idea that the the happiness lab this idea that the the happiness lab this idea that the point of parenting is to not raise kids point of parenting is to not raise kids point of parenting is to not raise kids but to raise adults. Tell me about the but to raise adults. Tell me about the but to raise adults. Tell me about the advice that you got with your own kids advice that you got with your own kids advice that you got with your own kids and how this ended up sticking with you and how this ended up sticking with you and how this ended up sticking with you so much. so much. so much. >> Yeah. And at this point, I'm not sure I >> Yeah. And at this point, I'm not sure I >> Yeah. And at this point, I'm not sure I can even remember who told me that, but can even remember who told me that, but can even remember who told me that, but it has stuck with me ever since. It's it has stuck with me ever since. It's it has stuck with me ever since. It's such great advice that that is your job such great advice that that is your job such great advice that that is your job to raise a successful adult. Your job is to raise a successful adult. Your job is to raise a successful adult. Your job is not to make your kid happy at every not to make your kid happy at every not to make your kid happy at every single moment. And that makes your job a single moment. And that makes your job a single moment. And that makes your job a little harder in some ways, but even in little harder in some ways, but even in little harder in some ways, but even in kind of the short long term, it can make kind of the short long term, it can make kind of the short long term, it can make your job easier because if you have your job easier because if you have your job easier because if you have those rules and stick with them, even those rules and stick with them, even those rules and stick with them, even when your kids are toddlers, if you have when your kids are toddlers, if you have when your kids are toddlers, if you have said no and you have tried to keep them said no and you have tried to keep them said no and you have tried to keep them safe, not just in the real world, but safe, not just in the real world, but safe, not just in the real world, but online, and introduce technology later online, and introduce technology later online, and introduce technology later when they're more ready for it, then when they're more ready for it, then when they're more ready for it, then they're less likely to have those mental they're less likely to have those mental they're less likely to have those mental health problems and more likely health problems and more likely health problems and more likely to do all the other things we need them to do all the other things we need them to do all the other things we need them to do like sleep and spend time with to do like sleep and spend time with to do like sleep and spend time with their friends in person and exercise and their friends in person and exercise and their friends in person and exercise and maybe read a book every once in a while maybe read a book every once in a while maybe read a book every once in a while and uh help them be more successful and uh help them be more successful and uh help them be more successful adults. adults. adults. >> And so one of the ways you do that as a >> And so one of the ways you do that as a >> And so one of the ways you do that as a parent is to set rules about technology parent is to set rules about technology parent is to set rules about technology free zones. What are some of these zones free zones. What are some of these zones free zones. What are some of these zones that you recommend? Which ones are the that you recommend? Which ones are the that you recommend? Which ones are the most important? most important? most important? >> Well, the most important overall is no >> Well, the most important overall is no >> Well, the most important overall is no phones in a bedroom overnight. It's just phones in a bedroom overnight. It's just phones in a bedroom overnight. It's just so important for people of all ages. so important for people of all ages. so important for people of all ages. Tons of studies on this. People do not Tons of studies on this. People do not Tons of studies on this. People do not sleep as well or as long if that phone sleep as well or as long if that phone sleep as well or as long if that phone is in the bedroom, even if it's off, is in the bedroom, even if it's off, is in the bedroom, even if it's off, much less lighting up with much less lighting up with much less lighting up with notifications. notifications. notifications. Around the holiday times, as a happiness Around the holiday times, as a happiness Around the holiday times, as a happiness expert, I'm often asked, is there a expert, I'm often asked, is there a expert, I'm often asked, is there a particular gift we can give our kids to particular gift we can give our kids to particular gift we can give our kids to make them the most happy? And I always make them the most happy? And I always make them the most happy? And I always say, get them one of those old school say, get them one of those old school say, get them one of those old school alarm clocks. It's a plastic kind, alarm clocks. It's a plastic kind, alarm clocks. It's a plastic kind, underrated happiness boosting gift. underrated happiness boosting gift. underrated happiness boosting gift. [laughter] [laughter] [laughter] >> Yes. My youngest, who's 14, that >> Yes. My youngest, who's 14, that >> Yes. My youngest, who's 14, that actually was one of her big Christmas actually was one of her big Christmas actually was one of her big Christmas gifts, was a very fancy alarm clock that gifts, was a very fancy alarm clock that gifts, was a very fancy alarm clock that lights up with sunlight and you can wake lights up with sunlight and you can wake lights up with sunlight and you can wake up to different noises. Or there was up to different noises. Or there was up to different noises. Or there was one, this was especially great cuz we one, this was especially great cuz we one, this was especially great cuz we live in Southern California, that went, live in Southern California, that went, live in Southern California, that went, "Dude, dude, it's time to wake up." "Dude, dude, it's time to wake up." "Dude, dude, it's time to wake up." [laughter] [laughter] [laughter] I love that. I think one of the most I love that. I think one of the most I love that. I think one of the most dastardly things cell phone companies dastardly things cell phone companies dastardly things cell phone companies ever did was to put an alarm clock in ever did was to put an alarm clock in ever did was to put an alarm clock in your phone because then you think you your phone because then you think you your phone because then you think you can have it when you're sleeping there. can have it when you're sleeping there. can have it when you're sleeping there. [music] [music] [music] So far, we've talked about what So far, we've talked about what So far, we've talked about what individual families can do to protect individual families can do to protect individual families can do to protect kids mental health. But when we get back kids mental health. But when we get back kids mental health. But when we get back from the break, we'll zoom [music] out. from the break, we'll zoom [music] out. from the break, we'll zoom [music] out. We'll look at what we should all be We'll look at what we should all be We'll look at what we should all be doing as a society to deal with this doing as a society to deal with this doing as a society to deal with this challenge. We'll also hear why even challenge. We'll also hear why even challenge. We'll also hear why even experts like Jean sometimes struggle to experts like Jean sometimes struggle to experts like Jean sometimes struggle to follow their own advice when it comes to follow their own advice when it comes to follow their own advice when it comes to limiting technology. [music] limiting technology. [music] limiting technology. [music] The Happiness Lab will be right back. One of the most important places where One of the most important places where experts are tackling kids growing experts are tackling kids growing experts are tackling kids growing dependence on smartphones is in [music] dependence on smartphones is in [music] dependence on smartphones is in [music] schools where the battle for kids schools where the battle for kids schools where the battle for kids attention is happening in real time. In attention is happening in real time. In attention is happening in real time. In the last year, many districts across the the last year, many districts across the the last year, many districts across the country have begun experimenting with a country have begun experimenting with a country have begun experimenting with a ban on phones during the school day. But ban on phones during the school day. But ban on phones during the school day. But I asked psychologist Gene Twangi, I asked psychologist Gene Twangi, I asked psychologist Gene Twangi, [music] [music] [music] do those bands actually make a do those bands actually make a do those bands actually make a difference? difference? difference? >> So that research is still emerging. We >> So that research is still emerging. We >> So that research is still emerging. We really only have a few good studies, but really only have a few good studies, but really only have a few good studies, but they tend to point toward mental health they tend to point toward mental health they tend to point toward mental health benefits, especially for girls. And then benefits, especially for girls. And then benefits, especially for girls. And then academic is where you get the biggest academic is where you get the biggest academic is where you get the biggest benefits of no phones during the school benefits of no phones during the school benefits of no phones during the school day, bellto bell, because then you day, bellto bell, because then you day, bellto bell, because then you preserve the social time of lunch and preserve the social time of lunch and preserve the social time of lunch and passing periods for students. is passing periods for students. is passing periods for students. is actually easier to enforce if it's the actually easier to enforce if it's the actually easier to enforce if it's the blanket bell-to-bell ban as opposed to blanket bell-to-bell ban as opposed to blanket bell-to-bell ban as opposed to classroom by classroom. Then teachers classroom by classroom. Then teachers classroom by classroom. Then teachers don't have to police it. There's also a don't have to police it. There's also a don't have to police it. There's also a bunch of studies on high school and bunch of studies on high school and bunch of studies on high school and college students that even expand that college students that even expand that college students that even expand that to say, hey, even laptops, tablets, to say, hey, even laptops, tablets, to say, hey, even laptops, tablets, these are also a problem that when these are also a problem that when these are also a problem that when people take notes on paper, they get people take notes on paper, they get people take notes on paper, they get better grades, especially on better grades, especially on better grades, especially on comprehensive exams. It's that deep comprehensive exams. It's that deep comprehensive exams. It's that deep understanding that seems to be understanding that seems to be understanding that seems to be compromised when people are distracted compromised when people are distracted compromised when people are distracted by electronic devices. And we have to by electronic devices. And we have to by electronic devices. And we have to think about this. We're, you know, think about this. We're, you know, think about this. We're, you know, talking about the Pisa data set. Well, talking about the Pisa data set. Well, talking about the Pisa data set. Well, one of the main things that's come out one of the main things that's come out one of the main things that's come out of the Pisa data set in the last couple of the Pisa data set in the last couple of the Pisa data set in the last couple of years is that test scores are down of years is that test scores are down of years is that test scores are down around the world. And those declines around the world. And those declines around the world. And those declines aren't just due to the pandemic. They aren't just due to the pandemic. They aren't just due to the pandemic. They started around 2012, just like all of started around 2012, just like all of started around 2012, just like all of these other trends. Another project that these other trends. Another project that these other trends. Another project that I did with the PISA data set was the I did with the PISA data set was the I did with the PISA data set was the 2022 survey had a question asking 2022 survey had a question asking 2022 survey had a question asking students how much time they spent using students how much time they spent using students how much time they spent using electronic devices for leisure purposes, electronic devices for leisure purposes, electronic devices for leisure purposes, so non-educational purposes during the so non-educational purposes during the so non-educational purposes during the school day. And the countries where the school day. And the countries where the school day. And the countries where the students were spending a lot of time for students were spending a lot of time for students were spending a lot of time for leisure purposes on electronic devices leisure purposes on electronic devices leisure purposes on electronic devices during the school day had a much more during the school day had a much more during the school day had a much more severe decline in those standardized severe decline in those standardized severe decline in those standardized test scores. test scores. test scores. >> I mean, especially being a professor at >> I mean, especially being a professor at >> I mean, especially being a professor at Yale, I always get parents telling me, Yale, I always get parents telling me, Yale, I always get parents telling me, "Oh, what can my kids do to boost their "Oh, what can my kids do to boost their "Oh, what can my kids do to boost their academic performance?" It's like, fight academic performance?" It's like, fight academic performance?" It's like, fight and get phones out of your schools. and get phones out of your schools. and get phones out of your schools. That's going to help significantly. That's going to help significantly. That's going to help significantly. >> The idea of no phones during the school >> The idea of no phones during the school >> The idea of no phones during the school day has really gained traction in the day has really gained traction in the day has really gained traction in the last year or so. And a lot of schools last year or so. And a lot of schools last year or so. And a lot of schools are having a lot of success with that. are having a lot of success with that. are having a lot of success with that. They're seeing kids paying more They're seeing kids paying more They're seeing kids paying more attention in class. They're talking at attention in class. They're talking at attention in class. They're talking at lunch. They're finding, especially after lunch. They're finding, especially after lunch. They're finding, especially after the initial adjustment period, actually the initial adjustment period, actually the initial adjustment period, actually fewer discipline issues because there's fewer discipline issues because there's fewer discipline issues because there's not the drama over social media and not the drama over social media and not the drama over social media and other things. So, that's really a good other things. So, that's really a good other things. So, that's really a good development. So, that's the no phone development. So, that's the no phone development. So, that's the no phone zones. But sometimes when I hear the zones. But sometimes when I hear the zones. But sometimes when I hear the retorts parents go to when they're like, retorts parents go to when they're like, retorts parents go to when they're like, "No, no, no. My kid needs a phone." One "No, no, no. My kid needs a phone." One "No, no, no. My kid needs a phone." One I often hear is like, "I have to give my I often hear is like, "I have to give my I often hear is like, "I have to give my kid a phone so I could get in touch with kid a phone so I could get in touch with kid a phone so I could get in touch with them." There are fears that parents have them." There are fears that parents have them." There are fears that parents have about, you know, school shootings and about, you know, school shootings and about, you know, school shootings and these awful things, these awful things, these awful things, >> but they're actually safer without >> but they're actually safer without >> but they're actually safer without access to a phone in that situation. access to a phone in that situation. access to a phone in that situation. School safety experts are pretty School safety experts are pretty School safety experts are pretty unanimous on that because phones can unanimous on that because phones can unanimous on that because phones can make noise and alert shooters to where make noise and alert shooters to where make noise and alert shooters to where people are hiding. They can tie up people are hiding. They can tie up people are hiding. They can tie up bandwidth that is needed for police and bandwidth that is needed for police and bandwidth that is needed for police and first responders and if they contact first responders and if they contact first responders and if they contact their parents, which like sounds their parents, which like sounds their parents, which like sounds comforting, but isn't really going to comforting, but isn't really going to comforting, but isn't really going to help. In fact, it's going to hurt help. In fact, it's going to hurt help. In fact, it's going to hurt because then parents are going to rush because then parents are going to rush because then parents are going to rush to the school and then the police and to the school and then the police and to the school and then the police and the ambulances can't get through. You've the ambulances can't get through. You've the ambulances can't get through. You've also argued that you're just solving one also argued that you're just solving one also argued that you're just solving one problem but at the expense of lots of problem but at the expense of lots of problem but at the expense of lots of others. What do you mean there? others. What do you mean there? others. What do you mean there? >> Yeah. And I think this is a dilemma a >> Yeah. And I think this is a dilemma a >> Yeah. And I think this is a dilemma a lot of parents have faced. You know, lot of parents have faced. You know, lot of parents have faced. You know, there's this very strong belief today there's this very strong belief today there's this very strong belief today that your kid has to have a phone to be that your kid has to have a phone to be that your kid has to have a phone to be safe. It's more about the parents safe. It's more about the parents safe. It's more about the parents anxiety than it is the kid's safety in anxiety than it is the kid's safety in anxiety than it is the kid's safety in many, many, many cases. You know, many, many, many cases. You know, many, many, many cases. You know, admittedly, there are practical reasons, admittedly, there are practical reasons, admittedly, there are practical reasons, especially once your kid gets a little especially once your kid gets a little especially once your kid gets a little bit older and they're traveling around bit older and they're traveling around bit older and they're traveling around more, that you might want to get in more, that you might want to get in more, that you might want to get in touch with them. But you try to solve touch with them. But you try to solve touch with them. But you try to solve that problem by giving them a smartphone that problem by giving them a smartphone that problem by giving them a smartphone in many cases without any parental in many cases without any parental in many cases without any parental controls on it. And you create a problem controls on it. And you create a problem controls on it. And you create a problem that's going to be happening 8 hours a that's going to be happening 8 hours a that's going to be happening 8 hours a day every day, which is that your kids day every day, which is that your kids day every day, which is that your kids going to be staring at that phone all going to be staring at that phone all going to be staring at that phone all the time, whether that's social media or the time, whether that's social media or the time, whether that's social media or texting or the internet or games, texting or the internet or games, texting or the internet or games, whatever. you're creating 200 other whatever. you're creating 200 other whatever. you're creating 200 other problems. Part of it is, you know, problems. Part of it is, you know, problems. Part of it is, you know, [snorts] as a lot of people talk about, [snorts] as a lot of people talk about, [snorts] as a lot of people talk about, it's a collective action problem. I am it's a collective action problem. I am it's a collective action problem. I am hopeful about there being more hopeful about there being more hopeful about there being more regulation and more laws, especially for regulation and more laws, especially for regulation and more laws, especially for miners, around social media and AI miners, around social media and AI miners, around social media and AI chatbots. I don't know when or if chatbots. I don't know when or if chatbots. I don't know when or if that'll happen in the US, but Australia that'll happen in the US, but Australia that'll happen in the US, but Australia took that bold first step of doing that took that bold first step of doing that took that bold first step of doing that for social media, making it 16, and they for social media, making it 16, and they for social media, making it 16, and they have to verify age. So, I'm hoping that have to verify age. So, I'm hoping that have to verify age. So, I'm hoping that that will catch on, that more and more that will catch on, that more and more that will catch on, that more and more countries will do that because I think countries will do that because I think countries will do that because I think that would make an enormous difference that would make an enormous difference that would make an enormous difference for kids and for their parents if nobody for kids and for their parents if nobody for kids and for their parents if nobody 15 and under was on social media. 15 and under was on social media. 15 and under was on social media. >> I'm guessing at least some parents might >> I'm guessing at least some parents might >> I'm guessing at least some parents might be listening right now and thinking, "Oh be listening right now and thinking, "Oh be listening right now and thinking, "Oh crap, I already gave my 13-year-old a crap, I already gave my 13-year-old a crap, I already gave my 13-year-old a phone. What do I do? What if it's too phone. What do I do? What if it's too phone. What do I do? What if it's too late?" What advice do you have for those late?" What advice do you have for those late?" What advice do you have for those parents? So, parents? So, parents? So, >> I get that question a lot and sometimes >> I get that question a lot and sometimes >> I get that question a lot and sometimes people are resigned about it. They're people are resigned about it. They're people are resigned about it. They're like, "Oh, you can't put the genie back like, "Oh, you can't put the genie back like, "Oh, you can't put the genie back in the bottle." Well, yeah, you can. in the bottle." Well, yeah, you can. in the bottle." Well, yeah, you can. You're the parent. You pay that bill. You're the parent. You pay that bill. You're the parent. You pay that bill. You absolutely can. So, when I get this You absolutely can. So, when I get this You absolutely can. So, when I get this question, I usually ask first, you know, question, I usually ask first, you know, question, I usually ask first, you know, how old a child are we talking about? how old a child are we talking about? how old a child are we talking about? So, we're talking about a 15-year-old. So, we're talking about a 15-year-old. So, we're talking about a 15-year-old. I'm like, "Okay, sure." But put some I'm like, "Okay, sure." But put some I'm like, "Okay, sure." But put some pretty strict controls on it, like no pretty strict controls on it, like no pretty strict controls on it, like no downloading apps. You can't use it for downloading apps. You can't use it for downloading apps. You can't use it for anything but calling after 9:00 p.m. or anything but calling after 9:00 p.m. or anything but calling after 9:00 p.m. or something like that. But if you're something like that. But if you're something like that. But if you're talking about 13 and under, take it back talking about 13 and under, take it back talking about 13 and under, take it back and give them a basic phone and say, "I and give them a basic phone and say, "I and give them a basic phone and say, "I made a mistake and that's on me. I'm made a mistake and that's on me. I'm made a mistake and that's on me. I'm going to give you this phone." And going to give you this phone." And going to give you this phone." And you're still going to be able to text you're still going to be able to text you're still going to be able to text your friends on it. If you want to have your friends on it. If you want to have your friends on it. If you want to have a couple games, maybe, but they'll have a couple games, maybe, but they'll have a couple games, maybe, but they'll have a time limit. And it's this phone or a time limit. And it's this phone or a time limit. And it's this phone or nothing. Most kids will say, "Okay, nothing. Most kids will say, "Okay, nothing. Most kids will say, "Okay, that's cool. I want a phone where I can that's cool. I want a phone where I can that's cool. I want a phone where I can text my friends as opposed to nothing." text my friends as opposed to nothing." text my friends as opposed to nothing." >> I also like this idea of just admitting >> I also like this idea of just admitting >> I also like this idea of just admitting as a parent that, you know, you made a as a parent that, you know, you made a as a parent that, you know, you made a mistake. These tools are new. You're mistake. These tools are new. You're mistake. These tools are new. You're trying to figure it out, too. And what trying to figure it out, too. And what trying to figure it out, too. And what your goal is is to do what's best for your goal is is to do what's best for your goal is is to do what's best for them, what's safest for them. them, what's safest for them. them, what's safest for them. >> And, you know, the reaction is going to >> And, you know, the reaction is going to >> And, you know, the reaction is going to depend on the kid. For some kids, it depend on the kid. For some kids, it depend on the kid. For some kids, it might be volcanic, which shows in many might be volcanic, which shows in many might be volcanic, which shows in many cases that there is kind of an addiction cases that there is kind of an addiction cases that there is kind of an addiction problem here. If the reaction's that problem here. If the reaction's that problem here. If the reaction's that extreme, it does happen, but it will go extreme, it does happen, but it will go extreme, it does happen, but it will go away. It will extinguish. It's just away. It will extinguish. It's just away. It will extinguish. It's just going to take a little time. going to take a little time. going to take a little time. >> And you're parenting for the future. >> And you're parenting for the future. >> And you're parenting for the future. You're parenting for the future, not You're parenting for the future, not You're parenting for the future, not correct. correct. correct. >> That's right. And that's what you got to >> That's right. And that's what you got to >> That's right. And that's what you got to think about. think about. think about. >> I'm also curious, we've already talked a >> I'm also curious, we've already talked a >> I'm also curious, we've already talked a little bit about the mechanisms that little bit about the mechanisms that little bit about the mechanisms that increase young people's prevalence of increase young people's prevalence of increase young people's prevalence of depression and anxiety and things like depression and anxiety and things like depression and anxiety and things like that. Do those mechanisms stop? Like are that. Do those mechanisms stop? Like are that. Do those mechanisms stop? Like are they just as bad for adults, people in they just as bad for adults, people in they just as bad for adults, people in midlife and older too? Do we know? midlife and older too? Do we know? midlife and older too? Do we know? >> There's not quite as much data on older >> There's not quite as much data on older >> There's not quite as much data on older adults, but there's a good amount. And adults, but there's a good amount. And adults, but there's a good amount. And those studies also show that the more those studies also show that the more those studies also show that the more hours a day someone's spending on social hours a day someone's spending on social hours a day someone's spending on social media or the more frequently they check media or the more frequently they check media or the more frequently they check social media that the more likely they social media that the more likely they social media that the more likely they are to be depressed and lonely. We've are to be depressed and lonely. We've are to be depressed and lonely. We've talked about all the strategies and the talked about all the strategies and the talked about all the strategies and the rules you bring to your kids. Do adults rules you bring to your kids. Do adults rules you bring to your kids. Do adults need rules, too? And do you follow the need rules, too? And do you follow the need rules, too? And do you follow the rules all the time yourself? rules all the time yourself? rules all the time yourself? So, I didn't have any social media at So, I didn't have any social media at So, I didn't have any social media at all until right before my IGN book came all until right before my IGN book came all until right before my IGN book came out in 2017. Ironically, because that's out in 2017. Ironically, because that's out in 2017. Ironically, because that's my book that talked about social media my book that talked about social media my book that talked about social media use being [laughter] bad for mental use being [laughter] bad for mental use being [laughter] bad for mental health. Because I went to a meeting with health. Because I went to a meeting with health. Because I went to a meeting with my publisher and the young social media my publisher and the young social media my publisher and the young social media and marketing manager said, "Am I and marketing manager said, "Am I and marketing manager said, "Am I spelling your name wrong because it spelling your name wrong because it spelling your name wrong because it looks like you don't have any social looks like you don't have any social looks like you don't have any social media?" And I said, "That's right. I'm media?" And I said, "That's right. I'm media?" And I said, "That's right. I'm the last person of my generation who the last person of my generation who the last person of my generation who never had a Facebook page. So, yeah, I never had a Facebook page. So, yeah, I never had a Facebook page. So, yeah, I don't have any and I I don't really want don't have any and I I don't really want don't have any and I I don't really want any. He's like, well, you probably need any. He's like, well, you probably need any. He's like, well, you probably need to get some. Okay. At the time, this to get some. Okay. At the time, this to get some. Okay. At the time, this isn't as true anymore, but at the time, isn't as true anymore, but at the time, isn't as true anymore, but at the time, Twitter was the platform that was most Twitter was the platform that was most Twitter was the platform that was most used by academics and journalists. So, I used by academics and journalists. So, I used by academics and journalists. So, I joined Twitter and um yeah, it was joined Twitter and um yeah, it was joined Twitter and um yeah, it was Dickens. It was the best and worst. I Dickens. It was the best and worst. I Dickens. It was the best and worst. I made some connections through that made some connections through that made some connections through that platform with with other academics that platform with with other academics that platform with with other academics that were really beneficial, were really beneficial, were really beneficial, but there was a lot of really bad stuff, but there was a lot of really bad stuff, but there was a lot of really bad stuff, really bad stuff. And it is now an even really bad stuff. And it is now an even really bad stuff. And it is now an even worse dumpster fire than ever. So, uh, I worse dumpster fire than ever. So, uh, I worse dumpster fire than ever. So, uh, I don't spend a lot of time on it anymore. don't spend a lot of time on it anymore. don't spend a lot of time on it anymore. I do go and look at it and it is I learn I do go and look at it and it is I learn I do go and look at it and it is I learn a few things every once in a while. Uh, a few things every once in a while. Uh, a few things every once in a while. Uh, and I still post occasionally, but I and I still post occasionally, but I and I still post occasionally, but I mean there was a reason why I chose not mean there was a reason why I chose not mean there was a reason why I chose not to have any social media to begin with. to have any social media to begin with. to have any social media to begin with. I think I have an addictive personality. I think I have an addictive personality. I think I have an addictive personality. I'm compulsive about certain things and I'm compulsive about certain things and I'm compulsive about certain things and you know at its height when I was using you know at its height when I was using you know at its height when I was using it maybe in 2018 2019 a little bit more it maybe in 2018 2019 a little bit more it maybe in 2018 2019 a little bit more it became that and I did not like that it became that and I did not like that it became that and I did not like that but I'm sure they would have loved it if but I'm sure they would have loved it if but I'm sure they would have loved it if I was putting up Instagram reels and to I was putting up Instagram reels and to I was putting up Instagram reels and to be truthful I probably should be doing be truthful I probably should be doing be truthful I probably should be doing that right that right that right >> should for the success of the book but >> should for the success of the book but >> should for the success of the book but there's a little hypocrisy there. there's a little hypocrisy there. there's a little hypocrisy there. >> Absolutely. Absolutely. So, I mean, part >> Absolutely. Absolutely. So, I mean, part >> Absolutely. Absolutely. So, I mean, part of it is, yeah, with the topic, it would of it is, yeah, with the topic, it would of it is, yeah, with the topic, it would be somewhat ironic, but I'm sure it be somewhat ironic, but I'm sure it be somewhat ironic, but I'm sure it would sell books, but would it be good would sell books, but would it be good would sell books, but would it be good for my mental health to be making a for my mental health to be making a for my mental health to be making a video and then worrying about how many video and then worrying about how many video and then worrying about how many views or likes it got? No, it would not. views or likes it got? No, it would not. views or likes it got? No, it would not. If there's one takeaway from all this If there's one takeaway from all this If there's one takeaway from all this research is [music] that technology research is [music] that technology research is [music] that technology itself isn't the enemy. But in a world itself isn't the enemy. But in a world itself isn't the enemy. But in a world where our phones are within reach 24/7, where our phones are within reach 24/7, where our phones are within reach 24/7, the limits we set around them do really the limits we set around them do really the limits we set around them do really matter. And that applies whether we're a matter. And that applies whether we're a matter. And that applies whether we're a teen, an adult, or even a researcher teen, an adult, or even a researcher teen, an adult, or even a researcher studying these questions directly. For studying these questions directly. For studying these questions directly. For more [music] tips on how to develop a more [music] tips on how to develop a more [music] tips on how to develop a healthier relationship with smartphones, healthier relationship with smartphones, healthier relationship with smartphones, check out Jean's newest book, 10 rules check out Jean's newest book, 10 rules check out Jean's newest book, 10 rules for raising kids in a high-tech world. for raising kids in a high-tech world. for raising kids in a high-tech world. If you have thoughts about today's If you have thoughts about today's If you have thoughts about today's episode or about the connection between episode or about the connection between episode or about the connection between social media and mental health, we'd social media and mental health, we'd social media and mental health, we'd love to hear them. You can email us at love to hear them. You can email us at love to hear them. 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And if you're curious to learn more about you're curious to learn more about you're curious to learn more about what's in this year's [music] World what's in this year's [music] World what's in this year's [music] World Happiness Report, then tune in next week Happiness Report, then tune in next week Happiness Report, then tune in next week because we'll be speaking with because we'll be speaking with because we'll be speaking with worldrenowned legal [music] scholar Dr. worldrenowned legal [music] scholar Dr. worldrenowned legal [music] scholar Dr. Cass Sunstein about his chapter in the Cass Sunstein about his chapter in the Cass Sunstein about his chapter in the report. report. report. >> People are trapped. They are [music] >> People are trapped. They are [music] >> People are trapped. They are [music] kind of forced into a situation where kind of forced into a situation where kind of forced into a situation where they're on social media even though they they're on social media even though they they're on social media even though they would be happier if social [music] media would be happier if social [music] media would be happier if social [music] media didn't exist. didn't exist. didn't exist. >> That's in the next episode of the >> That's in the next episode of the >> That's in the next episode of the Happiness Lab with me, Dr. Lauri Santos.