ALEX HONNOLD Sits Down For ONE Interview Before Free-Soloing the TALLEST Building in Taiwan.. LIVE.

Key Takeaway

Fear is like hunger - just a sensation in your body. When you experience it frequently, you stop treating it as overwhelming and start managing it rationally. Alex Honnold's 30 years of climbing 5 days a week taught him that consistent exposure to discomfort transforms fear from a barrier into just another signal to evaluate and act upon wisely.

Episode Overview

Alex Honnold, professional climber known for free soloing (climbing without ropes), discusses his approach to fear, climbing technique, and his upcoming climb of Taiwan's tallest building. He shares insights on managing fear through consistent exposure, the difference between physical and emotional fear, and how practice transforms overwhelming sensations into manageable experiences. The conversation explores climbing fundamentals, training philosophy, and the mental frameworks that allow him to perform at elite levels.

Full Transcript

Transcript of ALEX HONNOLD Sits Down For ONE Interview Before Free-Soloing the TALLEST Building in Taiwan.. LIVE. from On Purpose. Auto-generated from episode audio; may contain minor errors.

On January 23rd, you're climbing the tallest building in Taiwan. Why? Why? Why? Why? Um because it's awesome. Because because I get to basically um because Yeah. It's cuz it'll be so fun. Uh I mean, yeah, basically it's it's really hard to get permission to come building and and if you get permission, you kind of have to say yes. You know, it's like so many other sorts of life experiences where you're kind of like, well, it's a hard thing to do, but you get permission. You kind of just have to go do it.

And you've been wanting to climb this building for quite some time, right? right? right? Yeah. I actually scouted it for a different TV thing that fell apart in uh 2013, I think. So, for the last, you know, 12 years, I've known that it was possible. I knew that it's I mean, the building is honestly uniquely suited for climbing. It's it's kind of perfect. It's amazing. It's uh and it's a really beautiful building. I mean, I don't think that many people uh know what it looks like, but it's it's I looked at it before.

Yeah. It's singular. It's striking. I mean, you saw how it sticks out of the the cityscape. I mean, it's incredible. So, it's um it's just so cool. But so 12 years ago or so or so I scouted it and realized that I could do it and was like this is amazing but never got the opportunity and so now I get the opportunity. opportunity. opportunity. I love that. And and is this building that fascinating to you because of the architecture because of this cityscape? Is that how you choose what you feel inspired to climb?

I mean a little bit. I think in general with rock formations you know there always a bunch of different things that go into choosing a a cool objective but part of it is uh you know the aesthetic beauty of it. Like is it striking? Does it does it catch the eye? Is it beautiful? Um, I mean, part of it is u in rock climbing is sort of like the mythology of it, you know, like the climbing history, like is it important to climbers? Um, and so I think with buildings it's kind of the same way.

Like is it striking? Is it beautiful? Um, is it possible? Which in this case it's kind of in the perfect sweet spot where it's possible and it's challenging, but it's not insanely challenging. Um because if you're going to do something for a TV program, it has to be uh well, you just have to be able to do it on command. So, uh so you don't want it to be, you know, cutting edge, cutting like the hardest thing ever done. You want it to be kind of in a sweet spot where you're like, "This is challenging and it's going to, you know, keep me focused, but it's not insanely difficult." difficult." difficult." You started climbing really young, right?

right? right? Well, 10ish, which um actually nowadays elite climbers all start even younger. But um but yeah, I was lucky enough to start as a kid. And was it always the plan for it to be a professional pursuit? pursuit? pursuit? No. No. Just uh No. My parents are both professors and uh you know they were supportive and like go do the thing that you like to do. But I mean especially when I was young climbing was way more fringe, way more niche and so nobody was a professional climber you know.

But thankfully as I grew up that kind of climbing has also grown up quite a bit. Climbing's in the Olympics now. It's just way bigger of a sport. So it's a little less unusual and there's just more money in it now so you can actually make a living and you know. Was there a moment that you felt that you were you're like, "Oh, I'm actually good at this." Like, "This is real." Like, when did that happen for the first time? No, not really. I mean, no.

I mean, for years, I thought that I would wind up being a mountain guide or something or, you know, I just wanted to I figured I'd get some kind of job within the climbing world. world. world. Um, and then, you know, I picked up some sponsors and started getting my gear for free and and I was living in a van by myself, so it's pretty pretty low overhead. You're kind of just living and and then eventually you're kind of like, "Oh, I'm making a living doing this thing I love to do." And then eventually you're making a little more.

And um and then I was like, "Oh, I mean it took years until I really thought of myself as a professional climber." You know, at first it was just kind of like I'm a basically a homeless person living in a van who happens to get climbing shoes for free. And you're like, "Oh, that's cool, but that's different than feeling like you're actually going to make a living as a as a rock climber." And so you were doing this even when it there was there was no money.

There was this was what you what you were chasing. It's not like you were working another job and doing this on the side. No, I mean I did work, you know, like I worked in my climbing gym when I was a kid and, you know, I worked a little bit on the side, but uh but no, basically I've just been trying to climb my whole life. Wow. What was the first climb that you did that was challenging and and risky or some sort of like real?

I mean, I think as I started to dabble outdoors cuz uh I grew up in suburban California like in Sacramento and so I would just ride my bicycle to the climbing gym and so for the first, you know, eight years of my climbing life is just going climbing at the gym. Um, so I mean it's super fun and you can learn all the skills that way, but it's not particularly extreme or anything. It's not like uh, you know, it's not what people think of as adventure.

And then once I learned how to drive and then started borrowing the family car and started going outside more, then I started having some of the adventures that I think characterize, you know, what people think of as as extreme rock climbing and all that. Yeah. What What's the experience for you? Like is it the thrill? Is it the fascination? What what part of it gives you life and brings you alive? Like what part of it gives you joy? I mean I think at the core is just the the movement of climbing like I literally just came here from the climbing gym cuz I had a little time in between your hands.

Oh yeah. Yeah. I didn't wash my hands but um but yeah it's like there's a there's a climbing gym relatively nearby and I was like oh perfect. So just a quick session basically just rapid fired problems around the gym. Uh bolding gym so just short and you know safe and I just did an hour as fast I could and now I'm tired and I'm like what a nice day. So it's really just the movement of of climbing I think is is the the at the core that's the joy of it.

But then beyond that there's the the challenge you know like overcoming fears uh you know as a professional climber. I mean the travel involved in it like seeing the world being outdoors in nature having you know beautiful experiences all your friends. I mean there all these other things that are amazing about climbing but I think the thing that always brings me back to is I just like climbing you know it's like running or swimming or other sort of like elemental movement patterns. It just feels good to do the thing.

Yeah. Tell me about the actual skill of climbing for someone who isn't a climber. climber. climber. You haven't climbed at all? I have. I don't think I've climbed at all. I'm trying to think about it in my life. I don't think I've ever climbed. And so I I would love to understand like talk to me about the actual skill of climbing as if you were training me. Even as a kid, you never climbed on things. things. things. Yeah, I did. Oh, of course. I love climbing on things.

I wanted to do parkour. My kids My parents would never let me. But parkour was like my fascination. I saw kids doing parkour. I was like, that's so cool. I love climbing trees. I love climbing walls. I've climbed a lot of gates. I've climbed like that, but I mean like I've never never never Well, I think that's the same thing basically. And that's actually I think one of the interesting things, you know, with this building thing coming up. People are like, "Why would you climb a building?" I'm kind of like, "Well, as a kid, I climbed all the buildings around my home.

I climbed all the trees. I fell out of trees quite a lot." Me, too. And uh you know, I'm kind of like just my wrist doing that. Yeah. There you go. Yeah. I broke broke my arm three times as a kid, falling off play structures and and once in the climbing gym. gym. gym. But yeah, I mean basically most kids it feels like love that kind of play. And I think it's pretty normal to play on things in that way. And so it's interesting that now as an adult people like why would you do that?

And you're kind of like cuz it's awesome. Cuz it's so fun. It's like the same reason the kids like to do that because it's it's it's cool. it's cool. it's cool. Yeah, absolutely. I mean I still love a ropes course. ropes course. ropes course. Like I you know if I ever but I I get the play bit, but what are the skills that you've had to build to actually be able to do this professionally? Because there's a difference between I love the play and then you know I'm going to climb the 11 tallest building in the world.

Like what's what's what's the training? What's the skill level? Talk to me about the mastery from zero to where you are today. What are the steps that it's taken to I mean yeah I like in some ways you just go and do the thing all the time and you get better at it. You know on the other hand it's like I've been yeah I've been climbing probably 5 days a week for 30 years. you're like, "Oh, you're bound to slowly get better at something if you put that much effort into it." Um, but yeah, I mean, I guess the I mean, it comes down to movement.

Like, how well do you move your body? Like transferring your weight over your feet. Like, in theory, your legs should be driving you for most things. I mean, people think of climbing as pulling with your arms, but really you should think of it as as climbing a steep steep staircase. So, you should be driving with your legs and you should be using your hands almost like you would on a handrail, like for balance. Um, you know, obviously if a climb is more than vertical, then you have to hang on with your arms more, but still you should be driving as much as you can through your feet.

So, it comes down to technique and, you know, body position, where you how you use your hips, all that kind of stuff. But, you know, in some ways, I think that over complicates it though. It's like really you just go and you and you try, you know, you just go climbing. I I love I love how casual you make it sound when I'm thinking like in my head I'm thinking, well, you never skip leg day cuz you need to work on that. Like are there certain muscle groups that you just need to be proficient at and prolific at so that you can be a better climber?

climber? climber? I mean climbing is very full body. So it's like basically use everything. I mean if you could just like turn the dials on something if you could turn your finger strength to infinity then you'd be a great climber. You know it's like basically if you can hold on to things very very well then basically you can you can climb well. How do you build your finger strength? How do you Well sadly I'm finger swinging is probably my biggest weakness as a climber. It's probably the one thing that um or it's probably the thing that I'm worst at overall, especially compared to my peers, like other professional climbers.

Um I've always been sort of better with sort of full body. Like I think I have good technique and so I can transfer a lot of weight to my feet and sort of keep them off my fingers cuz my fingers aren't that strong. Um but in general, you build finger strength the same way you build any other strength. You basically load your fingers and finger strength is actually your forearm strength. It's like your uh you know, cuz you control your hand like through your forearm. Yeah.

Grip strength. And so you just build up by, you know, hanging from small edges or hanging with more weight on you. Just, you know, you build up. How many hours do you spend training per week? week? week? Um, I can probably spend, you know, 3 to 5 hours 5 hours 5 hours in a session climbing and I can do that maybe 5 days a week or so. Is it? But that doesn't totally do, you know, some of the days that I go, you know, quote unquote climbing, I'm going soloing in the mountains or something.

And so of that time, a chunk of it is hiking into the thing. Some of it's climbing the thing, some of it's like eating lunch on top and trying to figure out where the next how to get off the mountain or whatever. You know what I mean? Like there sometimes you can have a six or eight hour day in the mountains and you're kind of like strolling, but it's all very low intensity. You're kind of like wandering through the mountains and figuring out what you're doing.

It's not like it's not like not like not like it's not intense the whole time, is it? Yeah. It's not like Michael Phelps training in the pool or something. You know what I mean? You're like wandering around the mountains like slightly confused trying to figure out. And I mean sometimes you walk into the mountains, it turns out it's cold and raining and then you walk back and you're kind of like, well, I didn't actually climb anything. And that's just the way it goes when you count like hours of training.

And actually, so in the past I used to have a training journal where I did keep track of hours and now I don't really keep track of time because that's not really the best metric. I don't think it's more around effort and you know like what you've actually done. actually done. actually done. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. It's like cuz some days you spend a ton of time but you don't do that much and then other days in a couple hours you can get completely destroyed because you're going super hard.

Yeah. What's what's been your favorite place you've got lost? That's a good question. I don't know. I mean, um I live in Las Vegas and uh Red Rock Conservationary is like this big world famous climbing destination like just outside of town and I live near it and I climb in Red Rock all the time and I still get lost all the time. It's like really complicated sandstone canyons with like folds of rock and you know tricky. It's just Yeah. I mean it's crazy cuz every season I'm like where' the trail go?

I'm like, "Oh, I live here and I hike this all the time." And I'm like, "How am I still lost?" But, you know, that's the that's the joy of being outdoors really. outdoors really. outdoors really. When you were talking about the mindset as well, you were saying half of it is, you know, the beauty of the landscape or the rock formation and you said the other half is just your fascination with overcoming fear and and the mindset piece. I imagine being lost while doing something you love is quite a special feeling it seems that you've made friends with.

I mean, I've never really actually there only been a couple times where I've been like lost lost like once actually climbing a thing in South Africa. I thought I was going to have to drop into now I forget what's the neighboring country to the north. Um we were right on the border like north of Johannesburg. Um I forget what the next country north is, but um but basically I thought I was going to have to drop over the border like into another country and basically go find a village cuz we were up on a mountain basically and you could see villages off in the distance.

But I was like couldn't find my way back to where I was supposed to and was kind of like I'm just going to go fully rogue here and just have to like borrow somebody's phone and try to find a way to contact the people that I'm supposed to be. But um ultimately I found my way eventually showed up hours late and totally torn to shreds from like crawling through the bushes all confused. But so I've only had a few experiences like that where I'm lost lost.

Um for the most part you always have a sense of where you're supposed to be going. You're just not on the trail or you know you can't find the best way. Yeah. Yeah, Yeah. Yeah, Yeah. Yeah, but that I mean that is kind of the joy of climbing is you just have tons of experiences like that where you're like I'm doing some crazy thing. I I read that in 2016 neuroscientists conducted a brain scan and found that your amygdala responded much less to fear than the average person.

Did you always feel feel that way growing up? No. But well, so this is part of a longer thing, but I would suspect that your amigdala probably responds less to fear than the average person just in the same way like years of meditation will do the same thing. It's like you're just not going to respond to stimulus in the same way. And so for me, I see that as basically I've been getting afraid. I've been consistently experiencing fear all the time as a climber, you know, for years.

And so then the test they they did for that particular brain scan, you know, you're in fMRI and then you look at these black and white photos and I'm like, well, obviously looking at photos while I'm lying down inside a sealed tube, it's just not scary. You know, if you spend your whole life getting scared all the time, that's not scary. And in the same way that I'm sure if somebody scans your brain, it's going to be different than average because you spent a ton of time working on it.

Basically, you're kind of like that seems totally reasonable. You know, it's like I don't know. It's a shame cuz there's a scene in Free Solo, you know, they show a little clip from that when and basically everyone watching the movie comes out of like, well, there's something wrong with his brain. And you're like, no, the takeaway is that if you practice something your whole life, you get better at it. It's like that's that's the real lesson. Yeah. that that I mean now looking at it from your perspective that makes a lot of sense of sense of sense in that you're you're right that when you're doing those tests it will rarely be as scary as something you've done in reality.

Yeah. Yeah, I mean it's like I get tons of questions around fear and like managing fear and all that and and you know my answers have obviously like changed over time and I've like thought about fear a ton in my life and and now honestly I'm always like you know it's been 30 years I've been climbing all the time and climbing is really scary like you're always scared at least a little bit as a climber cuz there always consequences in climbing even if you're climbing with a rope and you're using protection you're still always a little bit on edge because you know you're like what if the rope cut like what if you know I didn't tie my knot like there always these what ifs and so you're always a little bit afraid And so I think that it changes your relationship with fear because you're just scared all the time.

I mean, you know, not like deep fear, but there's always an an edge to it. And so I think that puts all the other fear in life sort of in perspective. You know, it gets you good at managing fear because you you experience it a lot. How do you moderate it or regulate it in that moment when you've got to place the next step? You've got to reach for something else. You've got to keep moving because I think that's you're spot on, by the way. I love the way you're talking about fear because I think you're absolutely right that if you're constantly in a state of discomfort, discomfort, discomfort, but you have the right mindset because a lot of people in the state of discomfort, but then they overthink or they procrastinate or they get stuck.

Well, I think it's like if it's their first time in a state of discomfort, then it's pretty overwhelming. But if you're used to that state of discomfort, you're kind of like, oh, it's just another day, you know? And I think that's the thing with climbing is that a lot of the time, you know, you're a little bit scared, but you just totally ignore it because the rational part of your mind is like, this is fine. like your harness is on, like everything is safe, the rope is safe, you're totally fine, and so you just ignore it.

But then occasionally you're like, "Oh, I'm scared because I'm in danger." And so then you're kind of like, "Oh, I should think about this and sort of evaluate like is, you know, am I going to be okay? Is it should I should I take different actions? Um should I try to mitigate this in some way?" So I mean, you know, it totally depends. But that's the thing as a climber is you're constantly balancing those kinds of things. Like is this fear wellounded? Should I act upon it in some way?

Should I do something? Should I not? You know. Yeah. And so so your relationship with fear seems just very neutral in the sense of you're having a conversation with it. It's like every other day. Yeah. I I sometimes um I mean fear is a sensation in your body. Same as lots of other things. And so I've used this analogy before, but I'm kind of like it's like hunger, you know? It's like when you experience hunger, you're not like, "Oh my god, I'm hungry. I need a sandwich right now." You're just kind of like, "Okay, I should eat at some point." And I feel like I think because people experience fear much less frequently, it feels more overwhelming.

M M M but you know if you experience fear with the same regularity that you experience hunger then you're kind of like okay like I'll deal with that in due time like when it makes sense I'll manage that. that. that. But fundamentally feeling fear is just feeling some sensations in your body or like it's not like doesn't matter more or less than any other thing that you feel in your body really unless it's telling you you're about to die in which case you should pay attention.

Yeah. Yeah. Absolutely. Do you do you feel that that what you just said about the more frequently you are exposed to fear the less fear affects you? Does that translate from the physical sensation to when you're having emotional relational challenges as well? Um probably less so than my wife wishes. You know You know You know you know what I mean? I think it does a little bit probably because you know to some extent managing fear is managing fear. Um Um Um but it is a little bit of what you practice.

Like I think I'm really good at at dealing with like physical fear like physical risk and and things where I'm like I feel like I'm in danger. Um less so I mean public speaking I was horrified of for a long time but again with tons of practice has gotten much more comfortable. It's fine. Um and then like relationship stuff I'm sort of like oh that's I mean my wife would say there's still a long ways to go. Yeah. Talk to me about the difference between like the fear of what you do which most of us would see as that is scary and then public speaking which is known as one of the scariest things to do on planet earth.

Like talk to me about the difference in No, I think it's really similar. I mean I think most people are I mean I was definitely more afraid of public speaking than than climbing. But obviously, you know, I love climbing. I spent my whole life doing it. But public speaking is is horrifying. Though that said, now that I've had a lot of practice with it, I would say that uh it's not that scary. Whereas climbing still always has some edge to it because fundamentally you could die.

You know, with public speaking it like feels like you might die, but you're just, you know, it's fine. Like you can always go out and like make a fool yourself and it doesn't really matter. matter. matter. Well, that's that's what I'm saying, right? Like the reason why we get scared of doing things that where there isn't a cost is because we almost make it out like there is a higher stake to it. Yeah. But I think that with a little bit of practice, you realize that there just isn't that high of a stake.

No stakes. Like, you know, when you haven't done it before, you're like, "What if they laugh at you?" And then you're like, "What if they do?" Like, "Who cares?" You know, like turns out it's totally fine. Doesn't matter, Doesn't matter, Doesn't matter, you know? But with with some of the physical fear stuff, you're kind of like, "Well, I mean, it does matter if you fall to your death or you know, so those, you know, that will always have some edge to it." Yeah. And so, how do you process that in the moment when those when that's what you're thinking?

you're thinking? you're thinking? I mean, it depends. Sometime, you know, first take some deep breaths, compose yourself, sort of like try to deal. I mean, the thing with climbing is that there's never any time pressure to it. So, you can just stand there basically like, you know, even if you're clinging to the rock, like maintaining a static position is typically not like that hard. So, you can just hold on, take some deep breaths, take your time, get composed, get composed, get composed, and then try to decide whether or not, you know, it's like sometimes you get really scared for no particular reason.

Um, and then other times you're kind of like, "Oh, it turns out that I'd, you know, misjudged the rock quality and this is much more dangerous than I thought it was and like maybe I should bail." And so, I mean, I've bailed off all kinds of things where you climb partway up something, you're like, "This is not for me." And you just climb back down. down. down. That's interesting to hear. So, you you're okay with knowing your edge and knowing your limit. There's not I mean, and the thing with free souling is that you always have to stay well within your limits, you know?

It's like cuz like when you're coming with a rope, you're always trying to push yourself like sort of beyond your limits so that you can learn and grow and everything. But if you're free souling, you stay well within your comfort zone because obviously you just can't fall off. And that's what this next climb is, right? right? right? Yeah, this next climb is free souling, but it should be I mean, it's interesting. It should be well within my physical comfort zone. Like, you know, I should be able to physically climb it.

But the sort of exciting thing for me is that I've just never climbed a building like that before. And so, um, so I think even though I'm very confident in my physical ability to do it, I'm still kind of like, well, I'm doing a new thing. And so, that's always a little bit exciting. Yes. Yeah. I love that as well. I I feel like what what I really appreciate with how we're talking about fear right now and through your reflection on it is that that that there's a sense of recognizing that anytime I do something new I'll feel a sense of discomfort or fear and that's a good thing because that means I'm I'm trying something new.

something new. something new. Well, and that's the whole thing is like are you experiencing fear? Are you experiencing nervousness or excitement or you know because a lot of those things are the same sensation in your body really. you're like, "Oh, I'm like a little nervous and or I'm feeling like butterflies and I feel tingling and I'm on edge and I feel heightened and you're like, "Am I afraid or am I excited?" Like, I don't know. I mean, it's hard to exactly pinpoint some of those kinds of things.

And so, that's so I think it's you just don't want to put too fine a point on like I'm scared cuz you're like or you're just psyched. Yeah. like I know that when I get to the bottom of the building like uh actually surprisingly the first move off the ground is one of the harder moves on the climb and you kind of have to like jump up and catch this thing and like start climbing and like basically taking the first step on the building is like one of the hardest and I'm sure I'm going to be a little nervous and a little tight and just kind of like oh this is you know with cameras and people and a whole spectacle I'll be like this is crazy.

Yeah, it's just going to be like the you know I'm nervous but does that mean I'm scared? I'm like I mean we'll see. I don't think so but I think it'll be exciting for sure. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, that makes sense. No, I I mean, not that I've done anything that I think is that hard, but anything I've ever done for the first time. time. time. Yeah, it's scary. Even if I've done it for a long time, it's still nerve-wracking. Like I said, not comparing anything at all, but yes, for me, if I was going into a longer meditation than I've ever done before, yeah, you'd be like, this is a new step.

Absolutely. I'm still nervous. And again, again, again, what is what is the longest meditation you've done? What's considered like a long meditation? So we would do a minimum of 4 to 8 hours a day when I lived in blocks or something in in full chunks. Like you could do four together or eight together, dude. Yeah. Sometimes. Yeah. Uh but the longest one was eight hours. The longest one I've ever done is probably just under 24 hours. Yeah. The longest ever. Yeah. Wow. How how deep did you go?

It was one of the uh it talk about it. It was one of the best most because what what we learned through length of meditation was not to show how long you can meditate. It was the ability to have to disconnect from the body because you have to go beyond the body to be that present in the moment because you'll start and I mean yours is much harder but like you'd start feeling an ache or a pain. You start itching. You start mentally getting lost somewhere.

So you your back hurts and your hurts totally. So you've got to go beyond the body and the mind. the mind. the mind. In 24 hours you get hungry. You have to go to the bathroom. I mean, how do you like like like Yeah. No, you're fasting to make it easier, but but uh but yeah, but does that make it easier? I mean, it makes it easier to But you know, cuz just fasting for 24 hours is its own challenge. challenge. challenge. Yeah, we we would do it often enough.

So, it wasn't it wasn't Again, it's what you just said about when when you're practicing it, it's it doesn't sound that crazy for me to say out loud because I know other monks who've done it for 3 days and 7 days and, you know, for for longer than far. Can people meditate for seven days? Oh, absolutely. really they're there are like they're like there's some people that I mean yeah I'm I'm like a complete beginner when it comes to you know the realm of real you know work that some of these incredible people that I got to meet have done dude but seven days is a long time to sit sit sit yeah it's a long time to sit maybe not good for good for good for it feels like more than you might need yeah exactly well it's it's always like that interesting thing where I remember when I was starting to do cold plunges in the beginning I'd always be like what's the right amount of time to be in a cold plunge when I was zero.

I was gonna ask you, I love you before we do it forever. No, no, I don't I don't do that kind of thing. Oh, you don't? But it's because I'm kind of like I don't think it matters. Like I don't think it makes me a better. So, you know, if I was convinced that this would like change my life, then I'm like, yeah, I'm sure I could do that, you know, mind over matter or whatever. But there are a lot of things like that. Same with meditation where I'm like, if I thought this was the path and like that would help me send, you know, like climb harder, then I'm like, yeah, I would do that.

But if I don't think so, then I'm like, no, I take a hot shower. I love that. But no, it's I love that. But no, it's it's what I was saying was that when I first started to do it, it was there's there's the ego number because it makes you feel better, but then there's the number that's actually good for your health. health. health. So, I think most uh health experts would say 3 to 7 minutes in there is amazing. But then people be like, I was in there for 15 minutes, but it's almost like it doesn't it's not that active after the seven minutes because your body's regulated and now it's not a challenge or a shock anymore and after 20 you're dead.

So, exactly. It's no real benefit. It's not actually happened. So has there ever been anything you're like I really want to climb that but actually it's too risky and I I wouldn't even bother like you said you bailed well okay so actually so in the context of the building so uh when the idea of common skyscraper for a live thing came up you know whatever 12 years ago or something when we first scouted uh the first thing I scouted was the Burj Khalifa it is the tallest building in the world the world the world and it's possible you can climb it I mean I was able to do the moves on it but it's uh it's cutting edge basically it's like very very hard and how high did you get I could climb the uh with a rope, you know, I can climb the outside, but it's uh it's just very hard.

Uh and also, it's hard in the wrong ways. It's like very slippery and very very finicky. Like, you could imagine just slipping off at any moment. So, basically, I was kind of like it it was kind of like the LCAP of free soling or something. I was like, "Sure, if I devoted myself to this, I like moved to Dubai and just like lived on this building." It's like, "Yeah, it's possible, you know, like it can physically be done with the proper commitment and everything." But for a TV program and I was like, "No, this is crazy." Like I'd actually started thinking about um using like a like a D-Day style parachute, you know, like old school military parachutes.

Like a modern parachute is like a wing has a direction to it. So it's actually not that helpful for something like a building cuz you'd have to be able to get a clean exit away from the building and turn away from it and face the correct direction because if you're if you deployed your parachute and you went into the building, you just crumble and collapse and die. So anyway, but so like a drop parachute just like an old school like what you imagine like GI Joe using that just goes straight down.

When I was playing on the Burge, I was kind of like, well, maybe I'd use something like that because then if you know, you did slip at least you could just basically plummet straight down the face of the building. Like it might kind of be okay. You know, maybe you break your ankle at the bottom, but you're not going to die. And so, you know, I started considering ideas like that. I was like, "This is all crazy. This is too much. Like, this is too extreme, basically." And so, I mean, that's an example of a climb where I'm like, "Yeah, it's possible.

Like, somebody could do it, but it's just way outside what I think is reasonable." is reasonable." is reasonable." Yeah. But then when I went and scouted Typo 101, I was kind of like, "Oh, it has all the same features of a striking building. That's like the biggest thing in the whole landscape. It's amazing." But the style of climbing is way more secure. Like the things that you're grabbing are way less slippery and they u the shape of them works better. Like you just hold on better.

I was just like, "Oh, this is the type of challenge I'm looking for." Yeah. Yeah, that makes a lot of sense. I wonder whether now after this they're going to start building buildings for you to climb. That's what's going to happen. I don't I don't think architects even I don't even think it crosses their mind like what humans can hold on the outside cuz it's interesting. I mean some buildings are just completely impossible cuz they're just smooth metal and glass. And then other buildings are like a ladder, you know?

It's almost like a jungle gym where it's like too easy. It's kind of trivial. Like anybody could walk up and do it if they wanted to. Yes. Like the New York Times building in uh in in uh New York City has been climbed by a handful of random people and like some just random dude off the street just climbed like half the building cuz it's like a scaffolding basically. you're kind of like, well, that's not the challenge that I'm looking for because I've spent my whole life practicing this thing.

I want to do something that's hard enough that it feels meaningful to me. Yeah, for sure. How how do you prepare for a climb? So, you scout it out, but how do you then prepare? how do you then prepare? Like, how are you preparing right now for for for Yeah, I actually just started all my training type stuff for it. Um, it's funny. I did the scout in September, uh, because they have to do it far enough out to, you know, assemble the crew and plan the filming and all that kind of stuff.

And so, and it was funny because I was super psyched at the time. like you go and scout it, you're like, "God, this is so cool. I'm so excited. Like, I want to do this next week." You know, I'm like, "Let's do this. I'm ready." But then I kind of had to just sit on it for uh you know, a couple months uh just because it's scheduled for January. And so, um and so now sort of 2 and a half months out, I've started like properly training.

Um you just don't want to start like really training too far out because then you'll just get like injured and tired and you know, it's like you kind of want to peak at the right time. Mhm. And so, yeah, I'm just I don't know, like all the all the ways you normally train, like eating really well, sleeping really well, exercising a tremendous amount, and just kind of trying to ramp up my volume so that I feel incredibly fit when the time comes. And that's so interesting that you said you have to peak at the right time.

So, have you learned how to do that overtime? I assume, because in my head, I'm thinking, "Oh, wait. For something this big, you'd prepare 6 months in advance." But I love what you're saying, but actually, yeah. Yeah. like a training block normally you can only sustain say 3 to 6 weeks of hard effort before you kind of need like a de lo time like basically you can only build for a certain amount of time and then you need some kind of natural rest and then you can start building again and so ideally you sort of like naturally build up over time but if you were say 6 months out from an event you'd have to have a pretty sophisticated like I'm going to train really hard for a month but then rest for like a week or two and then train really hard you know you need like a complicated plan in this case I have a relatively simple plan in that I'm basically just ramping until the building and Um, I kind of started my training maybe a little prematurely.

I was all psyched. And so I think I'm going to take a little de lo time around Christmas, which actually works perfectly with the holidays and things cuz I think I I'll basically wind up doing 6 weeks or so and then have like a week at Christmas where I kind of chill and then do another three or four weeks and then do the thing. You sound just like us, Alex. No. Well, it just seems Well, it's all kind of perfectly, you know, I think it should be perfect, but we'll see.

So far so far I'm responding well and feel really strong and yes, great. I love hearing that, man. Yeah. No, I'm excited to see it. Like I I'm so I'm so thrilled. It's to do it live is just you know you're giving us a real treat. Like I think you know it's interesting though because like for me the live thing doesn't if anything it makes it more chill because normally when you shoot a documentary you go and you do the thing and then you have to go back and film on it and you have to shoot pickups and shoot audio and like do all this extra work basically.

And so you know it's this tremendous amount of effort but for the live event I'm kind of like I'm going to go and I'm going to do it and then I'm going to fly home and I'm done. Like it's totally amazing. It's like as soon as I do the climb, I'm totally done. totally done. totally done. No, but I'm saying for us it's more fun because we get to be there with you. Yeah. Yeah. But I just don't, you know, I basically don't totally care, you know, about like other people's experience like cuz Oh, you don't Oh, so not really, you know.

know. know. Oh, interesting. Okay. So, sort of like if it was a film about it, like that'd be fine for me, too. The live thing basically I want to do a climb that I'm proud of. Like I'm excited about climbing it. And the way other people experience that, I'm kind of like, of like, of like, you know, Yeah. I mean, I don't want to say I don't care because I want other people to have, you know, a good time from it, from it, from it, but like, you know, that's not the priority.

You know what I mean? Well, you doing it cuz you love it. Yeah. I mean, that's that's kind of the thing. And I think as simple as that. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. That's brilliant. What a great place. I think everyone wants to live that way. You do it cuz you love it. It doesn't really matter. really matter. really matter. Yeah. It's funny like when it first got announced as a project, there was uh, you know, the sort of expected online hate and stuff from people in the climbing community being like, "Why would you do that?

That's stupid. Why climb buildings? It's too risky." here like uh you know whatever you know criticism for various reasons but I was kind of like man wait till you see the thing it's so cool it's so fun you know if you had the opportunity to do this you would do it too cuz like any climber would say yes to this cuz it's it's super fun and any you know like getting an opportunity to do something amazing it's like why would you ever say no to that that that but my goal for the you know if I can say I have a goal for the building I mean other than climbing it is just to actually have fun doing it because I'm kind of like that's what I want people to see from it like this is awesome, you know, not like some deathdeying stunt.

It should be like this is amazing, like this is so fun, this is joyous, you know. know. know. Yeah, absolutely. Yeah, absolutely. Yeah, absolutely. We'll see. We'll see. We'll see. Yeah. I I love how playful you make it because appealing to that part. I think we can all relate to that when it was just when it was playful, when it was exciting, when it was Yeah. I know. It's like that's the thing is it gets wrapped in all this like it's extreme and you're kind of like Yes.

I mean, yes, it's very high consequence. Like if I make a mistake, if I totally botch something, I could die. and you're like, "Yeah, that's you don't want to downplay that too much." But at the same time, it's pretty fun. And the thing is that those are the same consequences if I don't pay attention when I'm driving or like whatever else. There are plenty of other things you do in life where if you botch it, you're going to die. And yet people take some of those things for granted.

It's like, oh, that's just normal life. You're kind of like, well, you know, it's like you got to be intentional around where you're taking your risks. your risks. your risks. Yeah. Do you think that's a helpful mindset when you are doing things as well to recognize it to see it more as I guess grounded and real and normal in terms of when you're processing things? Is that a helpful mindset? What do you mean? Like even just the way you describe it which I agree with. You're like yeah well there's crazy risk in this as well and and you're right like in driving for example and and texting and you know all that kind of stuff or drink driving or whatever it may.

Yeah. Bringing and driving to me is the thing. People are always like, "Oh, climbing seems dangerous." And you're like, "Well, the thing with climbing is at least you're choosing the risks that you're taking." And obviously I'm training for them. I'm preparing for them. You know, I have I have like imagery of the building at home so I can visualize the moves. You know, like there's a lot that goes into it. Whereas people go out and party on a Friday night and then they drive home, they're like, "What else?" You know, it's just a Friday.

I'm partying. And you're like, "Well, those you're taking a tremendous amount of risk sort of unintentionally." Yeah. Same with texting and driving, too. too. too. Yeah. I mean, and those are the types of things where you're like, uh, you know, it's like if you're not choosing to take those risks, uh, I don't know. I mean, I think that's kind of worse. Yeah. Talk to me about the visualization because I'm such a big fan of visualization. Yeah, I read about as a meditation technique. Talk to me about where you just said you have a picture of the building.

Well, yeah. So, I mean, in rock climbing, like when I'm climbing hard roots, let's say, you always just imagine the route. You think about it, you remember the moves. Part of it is to physically remember what to do. like left hand, right hand, like drop the left hip, you know, turn the knee, things like that, like the mechanics of it. And then part of the visualization is like what will it feel like? Particularly on free soloing things that you're not going to be able to practice necessarily.

So some of the visualizing is just, you know, like how will it feel to put my foot on something that's really slippery when you know I'm going to die if it slips and so you're just kind of imagining the sensations and all that that kind of stuff. So you can't as part of free soloing, you can't go and climb this building at any point in order to practice. Well, no, I can go practice it with a rope, but the thing is, you just don't know because when you have a rope on, you don't really mind if your foot's going to slip or something, but then when you take the rope away, you're kind of like, well, is it going to feel different?

Like, I don't know. And you can't totally practice that. So, you kind of have to do that mentally. Just imagine it. And it. And it. And so, you get a sense while you're on the rope almost as a dress rehearsal feeling and then you're having to remember that feeling. feeling. feeling. Yeah. And and sort of imagine the potential feelings because part of the the benefit of visualization, I think, is that you're like, what if it's humid that day? What if it's particularly dry? And like with a building, it's interesting because with glass and metal, uh, you know, the texture is obviously really different than rock.

And so I'm not sure if I want it to be humid or if I want it to be dry. Like with rock, you normally want it to be super dry. Uh, because if it's humid, it's too slippery on the rock. But with a building, because it's so slippery to begin with, I think you actually want some humidity so it doesn't feel as slipp like you want your skin to stick to it a little bit. And so you want like a little bit of dampness, but obviously you don't wetness.

You don't want it to be wet cuz then it's really slippery. Um, so anyway, just thinking about stuff like that, I mean, that's all part of visualization, I think. But what I was going to say is that with with rock climbing, you know, you don't normally have footage of any of this type of stuff. So, you just imagine it, you remember, you think about the climb. Um, with this building, you know, we already went and did a scout and they were practicing the camera positions. They flew a drone up and down the building to like figure out the angles and all that kind of stuff.

And so, I never I don't think I'd ever done this before, but I was I kind of reshot the production team. was kind of like send me, you know, selects of the whole building so I can remember all the all the different uh sequences better. And so they sent me just some visuals of the building, but then they also sent me some clips of me climbing different things. And I was like, "Oh, this is actually tremendously useful cuz I can see, you know, how I'm doing it and what I can do better." And just, you know, I was like, "Oh, this is great." great." great." Yeah.

I love that you use visualization as a technique, though. Every climber does. It's a really big part of climbing. And you're visualizing the process, the texture, the feeling. Yeah. every detail that you could possibly imagine or know from from from and sometimes you're imagining you know the experience like the consequences of it or like what if you do fall like um I mean like particularly with with freesting cab like with I've spent so long kind of working on that. I mean, I thought about like what if I fell from here or fell from there just because and even though those are terrible things to visualize cuz it's you falling to your death in horrible ways cuz uh you know in a lot of places falling off a mountain it's not like a clean it's not like I fell and then you hit the ground it's like you bounce you know hundreds of feet or a thousand feet and it's a disaster and so but it's important to think about that stuff ahead of time so that when you're up there you don't suddenly for the first time you know it's not like oh if I fell here it would be horrible.

It's like no you've already thought about that you visualized it. processed it and and you've chosen to set that aside and execute the climb anyway. anyway. anyway. Yeah. You've already sat with the discomfort of that feeling in a safe environment. environment. environment. Exactly. Exactly. Exactly. So now you can track that and bring that with you to this degree. Yeah. Now you don't have to think about it while you're up there. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I mean ideally you think through all that stuff ahead of time. And so far with the building, I haven't gotten too deep into all that yet just because I'm still kind of a ways out and I'm sort of focused on the physical side and it's just not quite as close to my personal edge.

I I think I'm pretty sure like I just I think it should be well within my comfort zone. I think um so there's just not as much time devoted to like what if I die. Uh but you know we'll see. No no I I but I love the visual. Do you what's interesting to me because I'm thinking about all of us and I you know I I think the smallest things in the world would be easier if so for example I've been public speaking for years and I've always asked for a picture of the stage so that I can visualize myself walking out so that I don't trip over when I go out there so that I and I I think about all the and I'm giving a very human example of something that that I hope my listeners can take away going okay well how do I use that?

I'm like yeah I visualize myself giving presentations. I visualized myself uh doing difficult things for the first time. I vis I visualize pretty much everything. I use it as a technique. You're a trained visualizer though, so it's like easy tool for you to pull out of the box. For sure. But I would really encourage people to do it because hearing you talk about it. I'm like, yeah, you're visualizing all the details. And what I love that you haven't once said, and I want to ask you about this, is you didn't just say, "Oh, I visualize myself getting to the top and celebrating." It's like, no, I visualize about that.

Yeah. Yeah. I thought you didn't. That's talk to me about that because I think that's what today when we talk about manifesting and visualizing people have this visualize where you want to live. Yeah. Visualize success, right? right? right? Yeah. Like who cares about that cuz like that'll just follow like if that happens great. If it doesn't whatever. Um yeah, it's funny. I haven't visualized that actually. I mean it's not totally true because the the the top of the building is this incredible little spire. It's like a small little it's basically the space between us.

It's just a little dome and so you just stand on this Yeah. You stand on this tiny little pinnacle and it's incredible and the view is insane. Um, but you know, I've already gone up there, like climbed up through the hatch just to like check it out and and repel off the side and things. And so, you know, I know it's amazing and I know that it's going to feel amazing to stand up there. So, I haven't really like visualize that cuz I'll just, you know, it's like when it happens, it happens.

But no, you visualize the stuff that's important. But actually, I mean, talking about this, you think I think in some ways if you're talking to like the the lay person audience, whatever. I think maybe it's worth not framing it as visualization because uh you know, over the years as a climber, I've always just kind of thought of as daydreaming. You know, it's like cuz also as a climber, you spend so much time hiking to and from cliffs and I spend a lot of time by myself walking around, you know, in the mountains and you just spend a lot of time daydreaming basically like thinking about climbing.

And so, you know, occasionally like a project like this, I'll intentionally visualize where I'm like, "Okay, I'm getting ready for a thing." But basically, anytime I go wandering in the mountains, I spend a tremendous amount of time just thinking about, you know, like your mind's always wandering on something. it might as well be wandering through climbs that you're excited about or things that you're thinking about or projects that you have like things on the back burner that you didn't quite do that you want to go back to.

to. to. So, you know, I mean, I think it's less daunting to think of it as like, oh, when you're out for a hike or like out for a walk with your dog, you just daydream about things that matter to you. Like, that is visualization. Yes. You know, like you can make it more focused and you can you can do it more intentionally, but at the core, it's just it's just imagining stuff. Yes. Yes. I like that. And the truth is all of us are imagining but most of us are imagining worst case scenario.

Like so we imagine the meeting and going oh god I'm gonna get fired today or you know that that's how we imagine. I I wonder about that because so I I don't really have that so much. I didn't think you did. Yeah. And I do kind of wonder if I'm just like just a little less neurotic than average like as a base hardwired. You know what I mean? Like it's interesting because I' I've read, you know, I just read your book. I've read a ton of like self-help type stuff over the years and and like all kinds of and generally I read and I'm like I'm already living my best life.

Like I love my life. I'm doing what I love to do. Like I love the and so I mean for whatever reason I love reading books like that because I feel like if I get one little nugget that like helps me it's like totally worth it. And but at the same time I'm just kind of like I don't know if this book was written for me. You know what I mean? Like I don't feel like I'm struggling with a lot of the things that that it seems like some of these types of books are written for.

Yes. like I'm not struggling with with inner turmoil around a lot of this type of stuff. I'm kind of like is that you know basically is that nature or nurture? It's like is that just the way it is or or is that a lifetime spent outside being scared and I I don't know. Yeah. I mean I mean I I've like like how much natural anxiety do you have? you have? you have? No, I feel similarly to you. Okay. Like you just never felt afflicted by like by like by like that wasn't how I operated in general.

Yeah. It was just not how I and I think it's because I was exposed to so much of it when I was young. So I I think it is the exposure the exposure the exposure of being overexposed to discomfort, anxiety, pain, stress. But I've seen that go both ways. So I've seen that lead to people becoming free of it or having less of it or being able to know how to manage it. I've also seen it go towards people towards people towards people crippling anxiety. crippling anxiety.

crippling anxiety. Correct. Correct. Correct. And then I've seen also people creating great success in order to protect themselves from it. And so there's almost like it can go in three ways. And so it's not that simply being exposed to discomfort makes you stronger. stronger. stronger. Depends on how it depends on how the person reacts to it. It's almost like there's this old story which I love which is like when you put three different things in boiling water, the different things happen to them. So it's like you put um you put a potato in boiling water, it gets softer.

You put a egg in boiling water, it will get harder. You put uh coffee beans in boiling water, they let out the best scent. And so there's this old story that goes, "Which one are you? Are you, you know, an egg, a potato, or are you a coffee bean?" coffee bean?" coffee bean?" And so it's almost like the pressure of hot water. What does it do to you? And that's always been an interesting thing of do we get to choose that or are we wired that way?

What does that look like? like? like? Yeah. But I think about this stuff more. I have two little kids. And so, uh, you know, like questions of nature versus nurture, I just think about a lot more cuz you're kind of like, you know, are we having any impact on these children like or are they just fully baked as as how are you finding? I'm intrigued, Esther. Well, it's they're so young it's hard to tell, but you just see so much uh innate in them when you're like, you're just your own little person.

And you know, there probably things that we could do uh negatively to like negatively impact their development, but I don't know how much we're going to do positively. You know what I mean? I'm kind of like, I think they're going to be fine, be fine, be fine, but in some ways it takes away a lot of the stress of parenting where you're just kind of like, you know, I'm not trying to like shape them into anything. Like, I think they're going to be freaking great. We're just trying to make sure they're happy and safe and, you know, like have their material needs met and things and let them blossom into whatever they're going to blossom into.

But we'll see. I mean, I'm just starting. I don't really know anything about parenting. We're just we're just winging it. winging it. winging it. Yeah. No, I I remember a friend like I we're not parents yet, but uh I remember a friend like they raised their kid where like their kid would be like playing with fire and like jumping up and down and running around and it's like and I would I didn't this I was much younger then and I I didn't know their style and so I would get scared when their kid was near a candle or something and like no let the kid be near a candle like they'll figure it out themselves.

Yeah, we're very much like that. that. that. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Well, yeah. All this talk about risk taking all that. I mean, I definitely I think with the kids, you know, obviously I don't want to see them get grievously injured, but I don't really mind seeing them get a little bit injured. You know, it's like seeing them fall down all the time. I'm like, that's fine. Cuz like I mean, as a climber, you just fall down all the time and like you just get, you know, boooos non-stop.

And so, like with the kids, you're just kind of like, yeah, that's fine to get hurt all the time. just but we're there to prevent catastrophic injuries and like um and and now we kind of see that already with the kids where you're like oh you know they just seem a little bolder than than some other kids their age maybe but then you wonder is that nature is that nurture is that because we allow them the latitude to explore like that or is that uh you know because it's my daughter and whatever you know I don't know it's like my wife and I are already sort of adventurous people or like and so our kids are too I don't know know know you know it's like we'll see yeah can you can you be a climber and be a perfectionist a perfectionist a perfectionist I think Yeah, I think you can be and in some ways I actually think um I think I'm a recovered perfectionist in some ways.

ways. ways. Talk to me about that. Well, I don't know. I mean, I think that um my mom is like a major perfectionist like kind of like like psycho and so I think we were sort of raised that way is like that's the that's the the norm. But I mean but the reality is like I'm a very lazy person. like I just often do the bare minimum in things that I don't care about. Um or like the minimum requirement to you know whatever. And so I don't know like how do you reconcile like perfectionist tendencies with being incredibly lazy sort of like I don't know stuff.

And so now I think I don't know I think I've hit a real sweet spot where it's like I work really hard on the things I care about and then everything else I just don't stress. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I think that's that makes a lot of I mean, that to me seems to be a trait of highly high performers and successful people in general that they're able to know well focus on the thing that matters like the thing that you do. Absolutely. And what not to waste time on and and but it's taken me a long time to get there, I think.

You know, cuz I think through early life, you're just so hung up on like appearances and what you should be doing, what you think you ought to be, you know, whatever. And then eventually, you're just kind of like, you know, I'm only good at a couple things. I should just focus on the thing I'm good at and just do it. Just and and just be happy doing it. Yeah. Talk to me. I wanted to go back. You were saying that right now you're working out, diet, sleep.

Like, walk me through what that routine looks like. I love I love learning about people who live incredible lives and their different systems that they have in place to be able to pull off great feats. feats. feats. I mean, yeah, it's all normal stuff like eat well, exercise. I'm intrigued. Yeah. So, so I'm eating a vegetarian basically. Um, you know, mostly whole foods. So, I don't know. Like, dinner last night was like tofu, roasted uh uh broccoli and cauliflower and some like some purple sweet potato thing.

Uh I think that was it. Oh, and some Brussels sprouts. But it's basically just a bowl of like vegetables and and it's interesting because even like a couple months ago, I would have thought of that as a sort of inadequate dinner, you know? But like the last several weeks, I've basically just been eating like whole foods and no sugar and and like wholesome meals. And I'm kind of like, you know, I've just kind of like adapted to it. like this feels good and I feel great and yeah I'm sleeping well and um how much do you try and sleep and when do you sleep?

Well, basically, I mean, the babies have been waking up. Actually, our we have like a they'll they'll be two and four in February. So, right now it's like one and three/4ers or whatever. Um, but for whatever reason, just waking up in the middle of the night a bunch right now. Um, which is like a new I think it's like a developmental phase, you know? It's like she's suddenly made a leap, but she's saying way more, but you're like, "God, go back to sleep." You know, like, "Oh, man." Um, but so we basically sleep from like 10 to 6 every day, like roughly 8 hours every day.

But then and sometimes a little more or less. But then you you know the other night I got up at 3 and then just like made a bottle for my baby and like and did a whole another bedtime for it 3 in the morning. Like basically like read her a story and put her back to bed. It was kind of like huh what an unusual night. night. night. Um so you know we can't take it too seriously. It's not like Sure. Sure. Sure. but you know it's it's enough though.

I mean, we're sleeping well and vegetarian over a meat diet because um I've always cared more about the environmental impact, like just the the the impact on the earth, but I also feel like it's a little cleaner and I'm not like super uh uptight about it. Like I'll eat fish and um and generally I'll eat meat if it's going to be wasted. You know, if like somebody has a serving, I'm like, "Oh, it's better than throwing it away." Um but I just don't buy meat and I don't really do dairy.

Um I think Do you find that affects your performance, too? I I think I'm kind of lactose intolerant a little bit and so I'm kind of like it's probably not like the best the best the best but um yeah it's just but again it's also better for the earth. I'm kind of like ah it seems better, right? Interesting. right? Interesting. right? Interesting. The main thing for me is not eating desserts like not eating extra sugar. It just keeps everything going. Yeah, it doesn't. So that's hard then.

Well I actually So interesting. I'm maybe like two weeks into eating really well right now and uh and you just lose the cravings. Yeah. You feel so much better better better once you get past that. I go through periods of being completely off and then I have like, you know, during Christmas time I'll probably dabble a little bit again. But when I'm off, I I feel like my taste buds change. Yeah. You just feel so much better. I know. It's all the things you read about in books that you're just like, "No, that's stupid." And then you actually experience it and you're like, "Well, it does seem like it's true." You're like, imagine it's the 22nd of January.

What do you do? What's your ritual the night before? Is it different? Do you have a ritual that's the same? But the night before um I mean the day before be rest day I might do some cardio or something and go for like a light run or go there they're there a bunch of really cool mountains like in the city so you can go run around they're like monkeys in the jungle and stuff it's really cool so you can like run around in the mountains a little bit.

Um so I'll probably do some cardio or something but basically no strenuous exercise and then uh I'll just go to bed early and you know just try to eat well and go to sleep. Basically you just want it to be normal. You're like this is a normal day it's chill and then you wake up the next day and you do the thing. thing. thing. Yeah. Yeah, it see when when I'm hearing you speak about it, which is really refreshing, is that it's such a it feels like such a natural part of your life.

Well, I think that's how you want to make it like Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. because then it doesn't feel extreme, you know? It doesn't like it doesn't require some crazy thing that you do. You're like, this is this is what you do. This is normal. Yes. And I can I can liken it to and I'm only translating it because always thinking about our listeners, but I can translate it to in the past if I was sitting down with someone that I was a huge fan of and I built that up, it would actually make me a bad interviewer.

Totally. Cuz you're all because you're all like, "Oh my god." Yeah. And I would do that when I first started the show and and then over time people saw me relax in and ease in. And sometimes I said to people, I was like, "It's not that I wasn't super excited. It was just I had to contain it to do my job well. job well. job well. Keep it chill. I got Keep it chill. I got this. this. this. Yeah. Exactly. Yeah. Exactly. Yeah. Exactly. No. So, exactly what you're saying.

So, with uh with reselling all cap uh like I knew it would be the biggest thing I'd ever do. Like I knew I mean I didn't think the film would be as successful as it was, but um but I knew that it would be far beyond anything I'd ever done because it's, you know, it's a feature documentary and whatever. And and I knew the climb would be insane. But at the same time, you know, the main challenge of free souling is psychological. Like I had climbed Elcap with ropes, you know, many years before.

I'd climbed it without falling off many years before. Like technically I was physically able to do it many years before, but the psychological challenge, the believing you can do it, you know, when your life is on the line. That like that's that's a bigger challenge. And so I didn't want to build it up even bigger in my mind because you're like the challenge is already psychological. I don't need to like pile on and make it even harder. And so a big part of my strategy with LCAP was to make it part of my normal year.

And so like right after I freestile at OKCap, I went on this expedition to Alaska, which is like a normal as a professional climber, you go on trips to places, you try to climb new walls, whatever. And so it allowed me to look at my season that year as kind of building up for Alaska. And actually in the Alaska trip was because I went on an expedition later in that year to Antarctica. And I was kind of like, oh, I haven't been on skis in a while.

It would be nice to like do some glacier travel and climb some big granite spires on snow cuz it'll be good for Antarctica. And so I was kind of like, oh, ye season is building up for Alaska, which is building up for Antarctica. And so it took a lot of the pressure off having to achieve on LCAP or whatever because I'm like, oh, either way, this is practice for these other things coming up. And I mean, I knew that the other things don't freaking matter compared to freeing LCAP.

But, you know, it's like it's good to keep it keep it feeling chill. And so, I mean, I' I've always been into sort of stacking my goals in that way and trying to make sure that you don't let them get too big. You know, it's like you keep it all I don't know. Yeah. Yeah. So, the building's kind of the same way where I'm like, obviously that's more important than some of the other things I'm working on right now, but I do have a bunch of other climbing projects that are sort of intermixed with the training and so it keeps it all feeling mellow.

Yeah. When you when you summit like LCAP or or anything like that where you where you reach the top, how do you find you process that feeling? Like what does that feel like to you? Is it gratifying? Do you experience it? Yeah, I know. I'm psyched. I'll be like this is amazing. I mean, with LCAP, it was such a long and it was so on the edge of what I thought was possible and so it meant a lot, you know, it meant a lot to me.

I put so much into it and the pressure with the film crew and all this stuff. I mean, it was insane. So, it definitely I was like, "This is this is amazing." Um, I mean, the building too, I'm sure I'll stand on the top and be like, "This is awesome. I'll be so psyched." But then, you know, I'll take the elevator down and be like, "Okay, what a day." I was like, "What a joy." I'm sure I'll be glowing like until I'm back home, but then as soon as I fly back to to my home Las Vegas, I'll be back to normal climbing projects, like things that cuz I wouldn't be at all surprised.

Basically, there's several other things I'm trying to do at home as a sort of buildup and training for the the building. And I wouldn't be surprised if I don't manage to do any or all of them. You know, we'll see which things I manage to do. And so, as soon as I finish the building, I'll just be back to try to finish my training goals, basically. basically. basically. Yeah. Is it Is it right you were talking about waking up and the baby being awake at night?

Is this the first time you're doing a climb as a father and a husband? No. No, it's not. I mean, I've done a handful of things that are that are cutting edge uh with the kids. Actually, I did kind of my hardest like free solo to date for the spear. Like, it'll be this cool like insane. It's a bunch of the same crew from free solo. So, it's like the same same co-directors and stuff. And so, it was really fun to get everyone back together. And we and I free sololed this wall in in uh Jordan in the Middle East.

It's like,200 foot sandstone wall. And it was probably I told my wife it's like probably top 10 hardest things I've ever sold in which she was like top 10's like kind of hard because I've actually done way more than than what's in the public like on on film. Um cuz just building up to LCAP I did like a ton of things that were that are very hard. And so this thing for the sphere that was probably the first thing I've done with kids where I was like this is actually kind of cutting edge and and pretty hard.

And before doing it I was kind of like is this going to be different? You know like am I going to be up there thinking about my kids being like oh god this is so scary now? But I got up there and I was like, "This is awesome." I was so psyched. This is amazing wall. It's a really classic route. It's it's famous and it's uh it's it's really high quality. And so I was just up there being like, "This is so amazing." And I felt great.

I was like, "So you can experience that in the sphere in Vegas uh in next next fall, I think." So like years. years. years. Cool. That's awesome. Yeah. We'll we'll see. Uh I think it's hard to film for something like that. You know, it's hard to shoot on these crazy cameras. That place is amazing. So, we'll see what how it turns out. But in theory, next uh next fall there'll be a thing like that. This might all need to get cut. We'll see. Well, like I don't know, ask someone who's smarter than me.

than me. than me. Yeah. Yeah. I just uh I just I just went to watch Wizard of Oz then. But it was insane. It was incredible. I was so blown away by it and I can't imagine, you know. you know. you know. Yeah. That's the thing is I think seeing sing like that would be like insane. It would be amazing. Yeah. It be a real experience. No. Yeah. We we'll figure that out. that out. that out. Um but but yeah, that's do. So then, so it's interesting you said that, you know, you've done to hear you say you've done crazier, harder climbs that have never been documented.

Well, not harder than LCAP, right? Um, but leading up to LCAP, well, actually, so let's see. I mean, I can remember. So leading up to LCAP, I had three other routes that were very uh I mean, they're similar. They're not as hard and they're not as big, but they kind of led up to it. And one of them got filmed for YouTube basically. And then the other two never nobody ever even saw them, you know, like like one of my friends saw one of them with binoculars from the parking lot in this one area, but like basically nobody saw any of the other stuff.

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. One of them uh not only did nobody see it, like nobody was even in the climbing region. I went in and I'd been planning on prepping it for several days, but then my van ran out of propane and it was like this insanely long windy road to go back to town and I was kind of like, I can't cook. And so I was like, screw it. So, I just did the solo the next day so I could drive back out and just leave cuz I didn't want to because I couldn't cook and I didn't want to take a whatever.

So, I was like, "Well, that's the ultimate like rushed solo, you know, you're kind of like nobody saw it, nobody there was no plan. I just like got it done and and left." Yeah. So, I've done a lot of things like that over the years. Wow. Wow. Do you um do you have conversations with your wife before you decide what you're going to climb and stuff or is this kind of like this what I'm doing and Yeah, for no for the most part I mean u when we first met I mean like have you seen the free film Pre Solo?

It all sounds pretty you know like like I don't care at all about her feelings and and I think that's gives a slightly wrong impression just because at that point I've been dreaming about all cap for you know eight years or something and then I met uh I actually met my now wife uh at the exact same time that we started filming for the the documentary. So, we filmed for sort of 2 years to make that documentary. And so, that was the first two years of our relationship.

And, you know, I was like, "Oh, she's amazing and this is great." But, you know, some random person I met 6 months ago. Like, it's not going to get in the way of a life dream, you know, but now it's totally different because now I'm like, "Oh, we've been together 10 years. We have kids. We have a life together. Like, you know, I live with like my in-laws and then, you know, it's all um it's all much more tightly woven." And so, her opinion matters a lot more for projects now.

projects now. projects now. Yeah. How How did you know she was the right person? right person? right person? I don't know. She's just she's so great, you know. I mean, um I think when I proposed there was I said something along the lines of uh you know, like this is great. Can we just keep doing this forever? You know, like like why not? Uh not? Uh not? Uh yeah. Yeah. I've never been into the big like romantic gesture type thing cuz I kind of think the dayto-day life is like one of the things that I think is great in our in our like we have what we call sleepovers at night.

Like basically at night we always chitchat for a really long time. um which is detrimental to our sleep, but it's like but whenever we go to bed we always have like you know we chitchat for a while and I'm like oh that's so nice you know it's like you want to have a buddy that you chitchat with your whole life like I don't know do that forever I love that man does she find obviously what you do inspiring like what how does what's her take on it like if she was here right now and I was like describe what Alex does like how it feels for her what would she say I don't know I mean you I don't know I mean you know she must be at least slightly impressed by it I mean she didn't meet me at a book about it but at the same Yeah.

Well, actually though, she didn't really climb at the time. Her friend was into it and so her friend basically dragged her along like, "Come to this event." And uh she had just gotten disillusioned with dating apps and she was like, "The next person I see that I think is cool, I'm going to give them my number." And so afterward, I was like signing books and she just gave me her number. I was like, "Cool." And so I texted her and then uh and now we're married, you know, long long story short.

That's awesome. Yeah. Yeah. It was cool. But um yeah, so obviously she must care a little bit, but I don't think she cares that much. Is she a climbing too? Yeah. Yeah. Now she's uh she basically kind of started climbing at roughly the same time that we she had just started when we met and so now it's been 10 years and you know now she's quite a good climber. good climber. good climber. Wow, that's awesome. That's amazing. Will you ever do a climb together? together? together?

Well, we climb together all the time. Not like extreme climbing. Um but yeah, we try to climb together as much as possible. Now with the two kids, it's a little harder for us to go out together. But then now, I mean, sometimes we go on sort of climbing trips as a family and then the kids just run around the forest and play and we boulder. You know, it's like we're going to do a family boulding trip in France. uh in the springtime. It's like a really famous bowling destination, but it's amazing for the kids cuz it's basically a sandy forest with, you know, nice soft trees and sand everywhere.

So, the kids just roam and play. It's like really cool. Is there a part of the world that you're fascinated by that you haven't visited yet? yet? yet? Actually, Southeast Asia. I mean, I wouldn't say I'm fascinated, but I've never been. I've always wanted to, and there's tons of climbing, but it's also kind of hot and humid. And so, uh I'm sure I'll go at some point. But honestly, I' I traveled quite a lot before before I had my wife and kids. Uh, you know, I was kind of abroad like maybe three months a year or something for climbing trips and a lot of that now I'm kind of waiting till the kids are a little older cuz I'm like if I'm going to travel I want to take the kids and I want them to be old enough to remember it and have a real life experience.

So I think in general our traveling is all a little bit on hold until kids are older and then I'm like really excited to show them some of these places. Do you believe your work has a message or a mission beyond personal joy and fulfillment and thriving in play or or is it truly that is it? is it? is it? I mean not that big of a mission. I mean so part of the reason that I started the HANA Foundation a long time ago. I mean I started this foundation that supports community solar projects around the world was that you know I had a lot of work opportunities that I didn't necessarily need to take because I didn't need the money because I was living by myself in a van.

I was kind of like, you know, I don't I don't need to make this. I mean, this a lot of this stemmed from one specific experience where I shot this uh commercial for a bank and uh you know, and and they wound up airing the commercial a ton. And this wasn't even like I it wasn't even for me as like a famous climb or anything. It was like sag rates or whatever like Screen Actress Guilds. I just signed the normal contract, but they wound up using the ad a ton.

It aired all over the world. And so I made, you know, like six figures or something off of like a day and a half of shooting. And I was like, well, that there's no justice in that, you know? And the thing is is that it was work that I would have done for free because it's like you're going out with your friends and you're climbing in some spire and they're shooting with a helicopter and it's super, you know, it's crazy. It's like super fun work. You're like this is a total life experience that you would do as a rest day anyway.

You know what I mean? Cuz like when you're shooting commercial like that, it's not like you're training. It's not like it's hard. And so you're doing it as a rest day and you're like, well, either I would have sat in my van and read all day or I can go like climb the spire with my friend with a helicopter and it's insane. So you're like obviously you want to do things like that, but I was kind of like I don't need the money from it. I don't like need to do this type of work.

And so part of starting my foundation was kind of like, well, it's a nice way to funnel all that, you know, sort of funnel the the notoriety, the the, you know, the the money, like all that stuff can just go into something that seems slightly more useful. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Because I like saying yes to those types of opportunities, but it's like but it feels kind of, you know, it's not like I'm saving up for a yacht, you know, like I don't I don't need that.

And so it's nice to have like a reason to to funnel it all into something. Yeah, that's that's awesome. And then I know you just launched your podcast Planet Visionaries as well, right? With uh uh uh Perpetual Planet Initiative. Yep. Um yeah, actually we didn't just la we launched the new season. I've done I think three or four seasons with them now. Um but yeah, that's like one of my favorite, you know, we're I mean, you know, like interviewing people that are interesting and yeah, so with Planet Visionaries, I'm interviewing uh you know, conservation is like marine biology is like basically people who are doing something useful in the world.

And every time I have one of the conversations, I'm just like, "Oh, you come out of it feeling, you know, inspired." Yeah. Like recharged in a good way. It's like kind of nice. Yeah. And so, how are you pick are those people you know and are friendly with or are they people that you're just fascinated by or heard? You know, they're they're often people working through the Rolex Perpetual Plan Initiative. Uh because Rolex actually funds a surprising amount of conservation work like that. People don't really know that, but uh but so a lot of them uh you know, somebody like Sylvia Earl who's like her deepness.

She's a she's like the Jane Goodall of the ocean. Um she's been a Rolex testimony since like 1950 or something. I don't know. She's like I think she's 90. She's still like scuba diving and you know creating marine protected areas around the world trying to like help protect the ocean. And so interviewing people like her uh you know they're just like part of this whole whole world. And then occasionally I interview folks um like I've interviewed a few uh like grantee partners from the Hano Foundation like some of the organizations that we've supported uh doing community solar around the world interview them just to highlight the type of projects that they're doing and and why why those types of projects matter.

Um I mean we're kind of always looking for good guests if you know you know somebody. know somebody. know somebody. Absolutely. Yeah. I was actually because I became friendly with Munia recently from Rolex and she was telling me about the show and everything that they were trying to do with it and so I actually there's there's a guest I always I his name escapes me but I met him recently and he was fascinating so I'll have to yeah I thought of him to I was like oh I'm going to see Alex I'll just tell just tell just tell yeah we were doing um you know the first season or two is like Rolex ambassadors and things like that and then you're kind of like well there only so many and it's like and so you started like broadening it out a little bit where you're kind of like really anybody who's inspiring work protecting the planet is worth worth worth I mean I mean I mean and many of the the guests that I talk to it's like it's interesting because they're doing conservation in a slightly different way or you know a slightly different approach different approach different approach I don't know I like to think of the interviews as like kind of mini little TED talks or something where it's like what's the little nugget that you're trying to give to the audience like how like in what way can they see the world differently as a result of having listened to this so I don't know it's it's pretty fun fun interviews I mean as you know you know you know yeah absolutely absolutely Yeah, I'd love to.

Um, I Yeah, I'd love to. Um, I wanted to ask you, uh, Alex, I wanted to share one more thing, but I'm going to wait for it to come through, actually, because I believe we have this. So, I'm just waiting for it if now's a good time. time. time. Okay. Thank you so much, V. Thank you. Wow, this is so pro. I'm like, I need a teleprompter. I'm like, where's my So, So, So, we had to do it for moments like this. So, uh, Alex, we, you know, we were so excited about what you're doing and, you know, as I said, I'm such a fan from before that it's it's really a joy to learn.

It's I find it so refreshing when I sit with someone who kind of bursts every myth that you have about the thing, right? Like I think we all have certain it's like what you said, the conver the questions you usually get asked or the kind of hype that's built up around this is how this person breaks through fear and what they do. And then when I sit with you, I'm like, "Oh, I love how the way you approach it is flow, is play, is real, is life, is joy, is, you know, and and that's not what I would know or anticipate if I didn't sit with you deeply and have a really casual conversation with you." Yeah.

You think it's all extreme. Yeah. And I love that it isn't like, you know, it's beautiful when your when your bubble gets burst and the myth breaks because you get to understand a human on a deeper level. And so, we'd reached out to uh your mentor, Tommy. Uh, who'd sent a letter for you? Tommy sent a letter? Yes. Oh my goodness. And Okay. And Okay. And Okay. Would you like to read it or would you like me to read out loud? What would you prefer? prefer?

prefer? Uh, what's better for you? You should read it. read it. read it. It's It's for you. So, I'll read it to you. Yeah. So, he says, and all we asked him was for a letter for you because you were coming on the show. So, show. So, show. So, Oh, Oh, Oh, I'm already Do I need to leave? Like, I need to leave. I'm like deeply uncomfortable. uncomfortable. uncomfortable. All right. So, so this is what Tommy said. He said, "Dear Alex, when this podcast asked me to write you a heartfelt letter, I had to laugh.

Few things make one of the most mentally strong men in the world squirm more than public affection, especially from someone close. But I'm doing it anyway because people should know the man behind the fearless facade. When I climbed with you, mountains shrink to half their size. At first, I thought it was your systems and efficiency. But over the years, I've realized it's something deeper. Your unwavering belief in a positive outcome more than free soloing. That is your superpower. When you believe things will work out, they almost always do.

You've helped me see that so much of what feels heavy or scary in life is mostly imagination. Whenever I come to you with relationship worries or questions about how my kids are growing up, you reframe things until they suddenly feel manageable. And every time you've been right, you bring humor and lightness to places no one else could, helping the people around you believe they can not only survive, but thrive. Your bluntness, your unfiltered honesty might feel harsh coming from someone else, but from you it builds trust.

Everyone close to you understands it comes from a genuine desire to see people reach their potential. I also wish the world understood your generosity. You create abundance in everything you do and then give it away to friends, to family, to everyone around you. We come from a culture that values obscurity, one that assumes fame dilutes intention. Maybe that's why calling you an entertainer feels strange. But you've shown that you can go big without losing who you are. And if the world is going to be entertained by anyone, I'm glad it's you.

Knowing you and calling you a friend has been one of the greatest luck events of my life. I love you, man. Tommy, that's that's really nice. I was kind of like, did he write this? And then as he got into I was like, oh no, he wrote this. So totally. I'm like, no, that's incredible. I'm like, "That's the nicest thing. That's so nice." It nearly brought tears to my eyes reading it and it's the first time I've already read it. I've not seen it before now either because it's uh Yeah, the teacher I'm I am shocked and you know I'm like what a nice man.

I wonder when he wrote this. He he actually stopped by our house just the other day. They were driving for family Thanksgiving. So they just stopped for a night uh just to camp along the way. I'm like, "Oh, so how didful climbing?" I mean, well, he was one of my childhood heroes. Like he's one of the most famous climbers in the in the world. And uh even when I was a kid uh you know he was he was one of the best climbers ever. So I always looked up to him and I was like oh one day you know I want to be like him.

And then uh at some point we just met on the road you know both like two climbers and I think we were maybe in Squamish spot in British Columbia. But then uh but then I sort of sought him out for a couple climbing objectives and then once we started climbing together it was like game on. But yeah. Well I loved what he said about you having the ability to reframe things. things. things. And would you say that's your superpower? Well, I mean, I I think that's just normal.

I don't know. Yeah. I was like, "Why build it up? It's bigger than it needs to be." Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. It's funny what he said. He does jokingly call me an entertainer because I've done TV shows and things now. So, he's always like, "Oh, you're an entertainer." And I'm like, "No." Cuz, you know, I'd like to at least think of myself as like more of a high performance athlete or whatever. I used to jokingly call myself a high performance clothing model because when you're a professional climber, it basically means you're sponsored by apparel companies.

Yeah. And so I was like, "Oh, I'm a clothing model, but I send, you know, like I go hard." And now Tommy's like, "Oh, you're an entertainer. You're just like a TV personality." But I'm like, "No, but sending, you know, but the thing is I don't mind being a TV personal as long as you can actually do the thing you're trying to do, which is like climb hard, climb well, like do things that you're proud of." proud of." proud of." Yeah, absolutely. Yeah, absolutely. Yeah, absolutely.

But Oh, Tommy, what a what a sweet man. What else stuck out to you? What else was like What resonated was What else was like What resonated with you? Yeah, I don't know. It's just all No, it's a beautiful letter. It's very heartfelt for a man who knew you were going to run out of the room when you I know. That's actually the funny thing. Yeah. That uh Yeah. Nothing makes me squirm like public affection, especially somebody close. That's so true. Yeah. No, I'm so I'm so impressed that he wrote this.

Love it. Well, you can keep it. Uh Well, yeah. No, like I should put this on my wall. Yeah, definitely. Yeah, absolutely. Frame it. Frame it. Frame it. Like what a nice uh holding to it as Do you do that for guests or is that like a thing you do occasionally? occasionally? occasionally? Very rare. We don't do it for everyone for the right type of guest for the right right right who we feel at a exciting moment doing something new doing something fresh like but it but it feels right.

That's such a nice idea. That's such a nice idea. I it's one of my favorite I it's one of my favorite things to do because I feel like like you said like I think in our dayto-day we love people but we don't we don't say it like that and you don't get many chances in life to reflect. And so I know I love reflecting on people and I've appreciated when people have done it for me and uh it's yeah it's one of my favorite things to do.

I have this activity I do with when I'm doing workshops in companies sometimes where I'll take a group of leaders who despite achieving great things their biggest worry is that they're bad parents because they're so busy. Mhm. Mhm. Mhm. And we always have their kids write a note to them and it's stuck under their chair. chair. chair. Oh, that's Oh, that's Oh, that's and it's really special because that seems like water works in Yeah. And you also get to see what kids actually value versus what you think they value.

So, you're thinking like, "Oh, when I bought them that big gift or when I took them on that fancy vacation, it's like that kid just remembered you've read a story to them before they went to bed last night." Like, that was the win. the win. the win. Uh the win wasn't some, you know, grand gesture or some big event in their life. It was this tiny moment where you actually present. So, um but but Alex Oh, go on. You're going to say something. I'm just like, "Oh, I'm so touched." It's funny.

I mean, you know, I just read Think Like a Mug. Yeah. And someone one of my friends are just asking me like, "Oh, what are your takeaways? Like, what do you feel like you gain from And I was like, "Oh, there's a lot, you know, around like kindness, compassion, things like, you know, caring, service, like all these types of like feel." I was like, you know, I think I have a lot of room for improvement, all of those things. Like, you know, cuz there's a lot in the book that I'm kind of like, yeah, no, this that's fine.

I got that. And then, you know, basically the whole second half of the book, I'm kind of like, hm. I'm like, that's that's not quite my sweet spot. So, we're like, yeah, like there's there's something to be learned there. It's like, oh, it's Yeah. Just give something to think about. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Like, sweet Tommy. What a nice little sweet Tommy. Yeah. Thank you for sharing that. Um, Alex, we end every episode of OnPurpose with a final five. These questions have to be answered in one sentence maximum.

sentence maximum. sentence maximum. And so, Alex Hunnel, these are your final five. The first question is, what is the best advice you've ever heard or received? received? received? I'll just go for it. Just try. That's my advice. It's worked for you. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Better I mean, this is more than one sentence, but uh but yeah, I mean, it's better to try something and fail than to not try it. Yeah. Does Second question. Does failure even even even do you even ever think about failure?

Well, if failure means death, then yeah, you think about it a lot. No. Uh uh I don't know. Can I give more than one sentence? Yeah. I was sort of like Yeah, because it's interesting because in climbing failure like basically as a climber you fail all the time, non-stop. Like as a climber, you basically try projects and you fail on them over and over and over until the one time you succeed and then as soon as you succeed, you move on to the next thing. And so, uh, like yesterday I failed on a project that I've been working on on and off for like five or six years or something.

I've been trying it forever. It's like my life brudge. And, uh, and I almost did it yesterday. And hopefully I'll do it on Sunday, which is the next day I get to go back there. But basically, I will have spent years, literally years, failing on something. And then I'll do it once, which will represent about, you know, 13 minutes of per high performance activity where I like try really hard. Might even be less than that. I'm not sure how long it takes to climb, but it's like in the minutes.

And then after, you know, years of failure, I'll have six minutes of success and then I'll move on to the next thing. It's like, so as a climber, it's like you don't really define it as success and failure because you literally you spend all your time failing. Yeah, that makes a lot of sense. Again, the exposure therapy is Yeah. It's like you're just always failing. But that's the whole point. The whole point is to go out and try things that are hard for you. So by that definition, you're not failing.

You're just going climbing. Like climbing is failing. Yeah. Question number three. What's something that you used to value that you don't value anymore? sort of say, I mean, maybe like the the public acclaim to some extent. I think, you know, when you're alone in your van, you're kind of like, I just want to like be known basically so you can get laid. You're kind of like, oh, I just want to meet somebody, whatever. And then once you actually have some of that, you're like, I don't really need all that.

But yeah. How long did you spend in that van? van? van? Um, I think I live in the van 12 years. 12 years. Yeah. I mean, two different vans and Yeah. I mean, I had some girlfriends on and off and various things and um yeah, but basically lived in the van from 20 to 30. Yeah, maybe a little more than that. that. that. Were you happy then? Oh, yeah. It's great. But I just knew that I wouldn't want to do that my whole life. life. life.

What was it that made you happy then but knew it wasn't what you want? Oh, living in a van is amazing when all you're trying to do is climb at your at your limit. But barring even the obvious like you'll lose motivation. You just don't care, you know, after 10 or 20 years of doing something non-stop full tilt, you're like, you know, do I need to do another 20 years of that? Um, and I knew that one day I'd want a family and you know like my aspiration is to die at 80 with grandkids around me and it's hard to do that if you live alone in a van.

Is that is that really the dream? Yeah. Yeah, I think so. That's the way some of my grandparents died and I'm like that's a great way to go. You would that make you feel content? Like if you were looking back on your life at 80, what do you think would stand out to you? Well, I don't know. My grandma one my last grandma died at 95 I think. Uh, you know, surrounded by family. I'm kind of like that's a good way to go. Like I would be delighted to have that have that play on.

Yeah, that's beautiful. Yeah. My wife I named my daughter after my beloved grandmother. grandmother. grandmother. Oh, really? Oh, that's Yeah. And I mean and really like is there anything better? You know, it's like when you when you're dying of old age, surrounded by family, and you had a good enough relationship with them that they're naming their children after you, like great success. Call it good. Absolutely. Absolutely. Absolutely. Alex, is there anything that I didn't ask you that you wish I did? No, I don't know. I have all kinds of questions for you, but we can chat after it.

it. it. Absolutely. Absolutely. Alex, it's been such a joy getting to know you. I feel like I totally got such an education in what it really means to be fearless in a way that I didn't expect. And those are my favorite types of conversations where I'm pleasantly surprised, uh, blown away, inspired, and excited to see what you do on the 23rd of Jan. And even though you won't care, I'll be cheering for you and, uh, and watching. But, uh, thank you so much, and I hope we can stay in touch.

Oh, no. I appreciate that. That was a total pleasure. Thanks, Alex. I appreciate it. That was awesome, man. Thank you so much. Great. Great. Great. If you love this podcast, you'll love my episode with Lewis Hamilton. Lewis and I talk about why you should stop chasing society's definition of success and how to be more intentional with your goals. You don't want to miss it. Like, it's not about being perfect. It's about just every day, one step at a time, trying to be better, trying to do more.

I'm learning a lot about myself. I had to break myself down in order to be able to be