Your Mind Is Programmed To Stay a Victim (Here's How To Rewrite It) | Kier Gaines

Key Takeaway

Today, interrupt one autopilot moment with a two-minute check-in: sit still, notice what you feel in your body, name the thought driving you, and ask whether it is a fact or an old belief. Then take one small action aligned with the person you say you are—send the application, have the honest conversation, or put the phone down. Small, repeated proof builds self-trust and prevents waiting from becoming your default identity.

Episode Overview

Therapist and author Kier Gaines explores why people get stuck in waiting, self-victimization, anger, and identity-based stories of failure. He shares tools for practicing presence, separating responsibility from blame, questioning internal narratives, and building self-trust through small, consistent actions.

Full Transcript

Transcript of Your Mind Is Programmed To Stay a Victim (Here's How To Rewrite It) | Kier Gaines from The School of Greatness. Auto-generated from episode audio; may contain minor errors.

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He's an author of a new book called It All Starts When You Do. The one and only Keir Gaines. Why do you think so many people like to be a victim in their lives? The idea of self-victimization is the most salient and grabbable thought to. When someone else does something to you, I think it's more obvious to the brain what happened. It's not your fault. It allows you to exonerate yourself from any wrongdoing. Blame doesn't do that. Blame is a heat-seeking missile and it just needs to hit something.

What is the biggest challenge that holds all people back from feeling more fulfilled and happy in their mind? Waiting. Waiting for what? That's the million dollar question. Waiting for what? If someone is feeling stuck right now watching or listening to this, you believe it's likely due to unconscious emotional hijacking. Oh yeah. What does that actually mean? You remember Mike Tyson had that quote where he says, everybody has a plan until you get punched in the face. Unconscious emotional hijacking is very similar. Everyone has a plan until emotions come and completely derail whatever you thought you would want to do.

Your emotions. Your emotions. Absolutely. The things that you feel, either deeply or more topically. We have a tendency to believe that it's the negative emotions that only hijack us. You want to go in and you want to be the best father that you can, but fear and insecurity hijack you and instead of taking the kids to the park, you kind of sit on the couch and you just ruminate. But it's the positive emotions that can hijack you. Really? How so? Absolutely. So let's say, one example that I really like is if Louis and I have a disagreement.

You and I have a disagreement and I feel like you disrespected me, Louis. But I come in and I've been washing my dishes in my kitchen and I've been practicing all these things I want to say to you. I'm going to bring up how you've never been there for me and you weren't that good of a friend. I have all these. I've developed this script that I want to explain to you to tell you how much you haven't been to me to make you feel as hurt as you made me feel.

And then when I come in, you're all smiles and you're all apologies and you completely disarm me. You disarming me doesn't mean that I don't still have conflict with you. That doesn't need to be discussed. The good feelings completely hijacked the plans that I've had and now the situation is completely different and so is the strategy that I deployed. So that happens a lot to us and I think that there's a profound sense of guilt that is associated with deviating from whatever your game plan was because of the way that you feel and the guilt is understandable.

But a lot of work that I do as a therapist is helping people navigate around the guilt. To still reach, to still resolve your conflicts, to still understand what the distress is between you and the other person and so that you could still be whole. You could still explain yourself. You could still move in a direction that brings you closer toward a sense of fulfillment or a sense of self-expression instead of just venturing off into the great blue yonder and talking about the things that really need to be discussed.

Of all the clients that you've worked with in the past and all the people that you either work with directly or indirectly online, what is the biggest challenge that holds all people back from feeling more fulfilled and happy in your mind? Waiting. Waiting for what? Good question. That's the million dollar question, waiting for what. It depends on the person. I'm a fan. I see you got a football right there. You're like, y'all don't know. Which one is my camera? That one right there. You all don't know, but Lewis is like six foot eight.

So you- Do I not look tall on social media? Just sitting down, I can't tell. So you're a sports guy and sports guys know that you get good at the things that you practice. And a lot of the times we get really good at practicing waiting. We wait. We wait until we find the right kind of love in our lives. We wait until we feel ready. We wait until we feel inspired. And when you practice waiting and you become good at waiting, it gets harder to become unstuck from that pattern of waiting.

Yeah, that's right. And the perfect moment, it rarely comes. You don't get a perfect moment. You only get the moment that's right in front of you. So when people come into my office or if I have a speaking event and I'm talking to people afterwards, that's one of the through lines, no matter where you're from, no matter how you identify, no matter what culture you hail from, it's waiting. You know, it's interesting you say that, like the perfect moment. Let's say you waited for the perfect moment, like you did all the things, you got the degree, you got the website built before you launched, you got the whatever, you got the courage, you put the right outfit on to go ask someone out, whatever it might be.

Most of the time, even if there was a perfect moment when you did everything you were supposed to do to be ready for a perfect moment, people still don't take action when everything's perfect. It's like, like you said, there's no perfect moment. And if there was, you probably still wouldn't take action because you don't have the courage or the skillset of acting when things aren't perfect. So why would you wait years until something's perfect to act? Yeah. That's the internal readiness architect is how ready you are on the inside and your mind and your heart.

But it's, it's two part. There's another part to that too. You develop this idea of what perfect is supposed to look like. You've drawn up this idea and it's not based on anything concrete or anything you've seen. You've never experienced perfect. You never experienced. So how do you know it when you see it? Exactly. So if the moment was right on top of you right now, would you be able to recognize it? That's what's dangerous about it. What if this is the perfect moment and instead of acting in it, like you promised yourself you would, you're still waiting for it to look like something else.

What are people afraid of most? Like why are they so afraid to take action on whatever it is they want to act on? What are they afraid of that they feel they need to wait for the perfect moment to act? I think action is irrefutable evidence sometimes, and it can be incredibly painful to be reminded that you were not ready for the thing that you prepared yourself for. It can reinforce the idea that perhaps I'm not worthy of this thing, or perhaps this is something that I'm incapable of maintaining.

Like if I acted and I failed or if it didn't work out. That's right. It reinforces that I wasn't capable of it. Absolutely. Negativity bias can kick in. And if it reinforces that, it's not just the failure that happened. It's the fact that the failure attaches a narrative onto how you think about yourself. And the failure goes from being experiential to a part of your identity. So break it down. What is the difference between being a failure experientially versus being a failure as someone as who you are in your identity?

Oh, that's a good question. So a failure experientially is something that happened. Failure is an occurrence. It's an artifact of trying and maybe not meeting the mark. It happens. A failure, if you have that as something that's central to your identity, it's not what you do. It's not what you've performed. It's who you are. You can change what you do. It's very hard to change who you are. And the thing is, if you have that belief, beliefs are terrifying because a belief doesn't have to be true.

And you can hold on to a belief with irrefutable evidence right there in your palm and you'll still hold on to it. And you cannot be a failure and you can have so many wins and successes, but you won't internalize that reality because you spent so much time believing it. Yeah. Because you believe you're a failure or you believe you're not a failure. So how important is how we view our own identity towards our level of joy, success, and fulfillment versus being a failure and being miserable?

I think it's critically important because who you are is something that lives with you. Not just when you're sitting on a podcast that has an audience of millions. Who you are is something that is obvious to you in your quiet moments when you're alone, you watch a TV, when you're at home with a book, when you're in the shower with your thoughts. There's nobody around to judge or evaluate. It's just you and your own eternal messaging, that negative eternal messaging can be one of the most difficult things to contend with because it's always with you.

It's almost unavoidable. And there's not always a voice in your head. It's not always words that you hear inside your mind. Sometimes it's an impulse. Sometimes it's just a flash. Sometimes I talk about this in the book. Sometimes it's just an inkling in that you have, or it could just be something that's reminiscent of what you've heard before. Maybe it sounds like a teacher scolding a child, scolding a student or a friend who's profoundly disappointed with someone that they love. But it's you talking to you.

When people come into therapy, that's one of the things we try to unravel, Louis, where that voice comes from. When is the first time you heard it? What story is it writing about? Not just who you are, but who you've been. Not just who you've been, but who you have the possibility to be in the future. That type of internalized failure, when it comes to happiness or when it comes to just positive possibilities, it time travels. It doesn't just live in the present. How does it time travel?

Well, it can make you obsess over the past, which is time that's already gone. There's nothing- Just the story that we're thinking about? Yep. The story that the failure or the story that the negative self-messaging attaches to your identity. It lives in the past where you ruminate on something that already happened. And you attach a meaning to that story or that event. That's right. Whether it's true or not true, you've made it true based on the belief of the story you've created. And so it goes to the past, but how does it go to the future?

It goes to the future because you begin fortune telling. You begin trying to guess what's going to happen next based on a compromised image that you have of yourself. And it's going to make you either, if it's a negative story, it's going to make you hesitate on things that could be opportunities for the future, right? Yeah. It'll make you hesitate on things that can be opportunities for the future. It can make you not really see the full scope of possibilities that are available to you if you act now.

It can convince you, again, to wait, to wait until things look perfect. It could just bring tremendous self-doubt where you focus on what you're not capable of doing, what you're not capable of achieving, instead of real life. It doesn't allow you to ask what if. I was talking to you before the show, I told you I grew up in a really, really rough neighborhood in D.C. and I never, ever thought that I would live to see 21 years old. Really? No, never thought it. Never thought it.

I'm 40 now. That's good. You made it. Now, my mind has to catch up to the idea of that, because I spent so much time ... I'm thinking that, oh, I'll never see 21, I'll never see 25. I never ever thought about the possibility, what if I live longer? What if I do see 40? What if I do see 50? What if I do see 60? The possibility, the positive possibility of what if, just doesn't materialize in your mind the same way. Do you ever feel guilty that you made it out and so many people you grew up with didn't?

All the time. Really? Survivor's guilt is a real thing, but. How does that feel and how does that impact you? Are you therapizing me? Is that what we're doing right now? You asked me to be curious. How does it make you, how do you feel like it impacts your ability to have more joy, peace, hope, and abundance versus the opposite? It gives me gratitude. It makes me feel the exceptionality of my reality. It makes me understand how impermanent things are, so I grasp on and I hold them a little tighter.

Not hold on to them tight as if I'm hanging off the edge of a cliff, but hold them securely as if I'm holding a newborn baby. It makes me feel very lucky. It makes me realize that the work that I do isn't just laborious, it's something that I get to do. It's something I get to connect with people. I get to change people's minds. I get to use my skills and abilities to develop possibilities with them folks. Even my daughters, I have two daughters. I have a nine-year-old and a four-year-old.

And kids, man, they're not good at giving you receipts that you're a good parent sometimes. You know, they act up, they go against the things that you taught them, but when I see the kindness, when I see where they live and how safe they feel and how different that is than the reality I experienced growing up, it brings everything home. That's cool. Yeah, it gives me empathy for other people too, man. It gives me a lot of empathy for folks. There's so many kids from my neighborhood that probably could have been mathematicians or accountants or they could have had tremendous futures if their circumstances were different.

If their environment was different or situation in their homes or what. Everything, I think the environment shapes a lot. You take a perfectly healthy goldfish, put them in a dirty tank, won't be a perfectly healthy goldfish for long, right? So that environment dictates a lot. Financial growth begins long before the first investment. It comes from understanding what you're building toward, what's at stake and what success looks like for you. At Oppenheimer, we bring bold thinking guided by the full strength of our expertise to put capital to work, building and protecting wealth that last generations.

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That's indeed.com slash podcast. Terms and conditions apply. Hiring now? Then this is a job for Indeed Sponsored Jobs. Something you've talked about in the book is it argues that real obstacles isn't your environment or your past. It's a blindness to the truth about yourself. So what's the number one truth most people are avoiding then? The number one truth most people are avoiding? Well, in the book I talk about uncomfortable truth. I don't know if there's a number one truth because people come with a myriad of different lived experiences, challenges.

I tell you the truth that I, the uncomfortable truth that I encounter in therapy a lot. One of them is I can't change. People say that to you. Yeah. I can't change. I can't change, it's too late for me to change. I've been doing this my whole life. I can't change now. So well, define change. And oftentimes we see change as this massive event that is earth shattering and life shifting. We don't see it as tiny adjustments. And our work together is typically helping you understand how much little shifts matter.

Even if the evidence isn't necessarily there, social media does a good job of making things very grand. The gestures are grand, the sentiments are grand, the introspection is grand. And I think it skews our thinking. Little changes. What's the first thing you do in the first 10, 15 minutes of waking up? Are you action oriented or are you awareness oriented? One of the things that I offer up to clients is just to sit on the side of your bed and notice things. What do you notice?

What do you feel? Are you experiencing your body fully? Can you feel the softness of the cushion under you? Can you feel the insole inside your shoe and how melosy it is? Can you feel your fingertips? Are you sitting in silence? Is the silence forced? How much silence do you have until you have to jump into your day? When you jump into your day, what are you jumping into? Is it work? Is it family? How tight is your schedule? These things we do, we're just on autopilot and we're managing them as they come and we don't really get a chance to respond.

We're just reacting the entire time. Just a few days ago, I was sitting in a cafe and I was eating. I was eating a salad. And Louis, I was eating a salad like Garfield, the cat. You know how he just shoves food in his mouth, he barely chews. And I had to remind myself, hey, what you doing, man? Slow down. What are you rushing for? Yeah, what are you rushing for? Where is he going? I'm walking down the street and I'm just going and I'm rushing to go somewhere that doesn't have a timetable on it.

Hey man, where you going? Look, just notice the tree right there with the flowers on it. What color are the flowers? Can you sit there and just look at it? Not judge it, not evaluate it, but just notice it for two or three minutes. There was a point in my life where I feel like I couldn't change. I feel like I had to be on goal. Everything has to be an accomplishment or everything has to be building. I have to continue to grow. Like no, sometimes the name of the game is just sustaining.

The name of the game is just surviving. The name of the game is just noticing the environment that's around you. Yeah, yeah. In the book, I saw that you're pushing back on a culture or it looks like and it feels like a lot of people blame their challenges on their circumstances, right? A lot of people blame their challenges on their circumstances. But what you made, what you talk about a lot is around, you know, the problem is not always your circumstances, it's more how you show up in the circumstances.

I believe that's part of what the things you're talking about. Why do you think so many people like to be a victim in their lives? And really think that it's everything else around them is why they're in their current situation? You know, I don't think I will phrase it like that. I don't think I will phrase it as why they like to be a victim in their lives. Or where they choose to be a victim or say they're a victim or. Yeah, I would say sometimes the idea of self-victimization is the most salient and grabbable thought to them.

It's because it's very, when someone else does something to you, I think it's more obvious to the brain what happened. It's not your fault. Yeah, it allows you to step back and take yourself. It allows you to exonerate yourself from any wrongdoing. It allows you to, you know, in the book, I talk about fault versus responsibility. Blaming versus accountability. How accountability says, hey, this right here is mine. This is mine right here. I did it. I contributed to it. It's not my fault all the way, but it doesn't matter because now it's my responsibility to handle.

And this is how I'm gonna do it. I'm gonna process everything that happened around me. I'm gonna allow my feelings to exist somewhere outside my head. And this is mine. Blame doesn't do that. Blame is a heat seeking missile and it just needs to hit something. And I think that the blame allows you to offload a great deal, or as you characterized it, the victimization, it allows you to offload a great deal of the responsibility on to an event that's outside of yourself. But don't get that confused with not acknowledging the fact that you've been victimized.

There's difference. There's a difference between acknowledging that something bad happened to you that was completely out of your control. I think that's incredibly healthy versus holding victimization is central to your identity again, where it's the launch point by which a lot of your thoughts, feelings, and behaviors. So what's the difference between acknowledging that you have been victimized versus acknowledging that you are still a victim long after the event happened? Gotta be careful with that because it depends on what we're talking about. Let's just say it's something like, let's give a specific example.

And more so using it as like the reason why you're not able to do something. The reason why I don't go into a relationship is because I got cheated on and I'm never gonna trust anyone again. The reason why I'm not gonna go apply for the job is because I got fired and wrongfully fired. So I'm never gonna do that again, or whatever it might be. Something where it's like, I was victimized. Something happened that shouldn't have happened. Whether it's true or not, like let's just say it shouldn't have happened.

And then I hold on to that identity and it holds me back from taking responsibilities to go create what I want. I like that contextualization. So I think the difference there is if you kid, if you sit in that framing of it, it gives you the opportunity to not have to challenge your longstanding beliefs. We do not like challenging our beliefs. There's just a very, it's like a warm blanket. It's comfortable. It's predictable. You know the ins and outs of it. And again, you don't have to take fault in it.

You can completely offload that and say, no, that's all on you. You did that. I had nothing to do with it. But even if it keeps you from financial freedom and love and abundance and health, it's a blanket that keeps you in the familiar instead of putting yourself out there and trying something different. That's right. Because if I put myself out there and I try something different. It's gonna hurt even more. I give myself the opportunity to fail. And it just reinforces all these negative things that are on the periphery of how I see myself already.

It can be incredibly challenging, especially as a therapist, Louis. Can you imagine you're sitting with someone who is adhering to that perspective of life? And I mean, just right on the other side of that is greater love, growth and opportunity. And as a therapist, we don't tell people, I don't tell you what to do. I guide you with breadcrumbs and I ask you questions so we can chip away at it. And if I tell you, no, this isn't how it is, let me explain this to you.

Well, now you're just a doc. I've loaned you my reality. You didn't come to that idea by yourself. So once you're not in my vicinity anymore, you're relegated to whatever tools that you grew yourself. It's like you eat what you kill. Once you don't have my influence anymore, what are you naturally gonna think? How are you naturally gonna come to those conditions and challenge yourself? That's very difficult. And I think the trap is the should've trap. I shouldn't think that way or man, I should be able to look past that by now.

But should doesn't matter when you can't. And should is a gigantic T-shirt that it doesn't fit your body at all. Like, yeah, you're still covered. It does the job of a shirt, I guess, kind of, but it does not fit you. It doesn't fit your expectations. It doesn't fit your lived experience. It doesn't fit your bandwidth, nothing. You're adhering to what you think should be the existence that lands on you without really paying attention to where you actually are. So you don't recruit the help you need.

You probably won't accept the help if it's offered to you. And it really puts you at a disadvantage. It's the antithesis of growth. It can be extremely growth prohibitive, man. I wanna go back to something we were talking about before, which around beliefs and self-talk. From your experience as a therapist, do you believe that people get tied into devices, numbing addictions to escape their own internal thoughts and feelings or to escape the thoughts and feelings of others around them, on them? It depends. I think it could be a little bit of both.

I think it depends on who you are. You know, addiction is tricky and I'm not gonna pretend to understand the ins and outs of the neurochemistry of addiction because that's not my ministry as a therapist, but we don't like to feel pain and discomfort and the things that distract us from pain and discomfort give us relief. They give us relief. Sometimes we get that relief at the expense of our long-term health and wellness and it's attractive. And even when you talk about devices and phones and social media, there's a other side of that.

These things have hacked the brain. Your phone is, my goodness, a billion dollars worth of technology, research, development, and engineering. It's power in your hands. Everything is right there. Even the way it feels, the device itself, it's the right weight, it's the right smoothness. Like the snacks that we eat, a bag of chips. I don't know who sponsors your pod. Salty, sugar, all of it, man. But they do so much research to figure out exactly what the perfect amount of crunch is or the perfect shape of the snack so that it feels just right in your fingers or the perfect saltiness where, I mean, I don't know about you, I've definitely had snacks where I take one bite and I say, oh, that's the last one I wanna have and I blink and the bag is gone.

Yeah, that's not just by happenstance. It's developed that way. So while we're thinking about these things that we gravitate towards, I think it's important to remember that they were developed to keep us engaged with them. It doesn't, you know, it doesn't exonerate you from the responsibility of detaching from it, but it just proves how difficult of a job it'll be to separate yourself from these things. If you were sitting across from yourself as a therapist to yourself, what's the one piece of advice that you would give you today with all the tools and knowledge that you have to support you in your personal growth and achieving a better level of health, peace, abundance, freedom internally?

What's the coaching you would give you? I think I'd ask myself a question. What's the question? I ask myself two questions. How much is enough? And what does satisfaction look like? How much is enough? I'll tell you when I get there. What if you never get there? I know, well, honestly. That's the scary thing, right? It can be. I'll tell you, Louis, real talk, man. If nothing ever happens, if my career never advances past where I am now. Would you be satisfied? Absolutely, absolutely. Would it be enough?

Absolutely, absolutely. Then why do you need to ask yourself those questions? Because it still challenges what I believe. I think that self-interrogation is a powerful tool. I wrote this book on the premise of self-interrogation. Interrogating your immediate thoughts and beliefs away from shame, blame, and guilt. And even though I feel that way in my heart, anything that makes me reevaluate my philosophy, I think can be helpful because perhaps with deeper thought, I realize that this isn't enough. Or growth, growth goes hand-in-hand with impermanence. I may feel this way right now today as I'm sitting in front of you.

I may not feel this way in three years. I may have a completely different mindset. So I don't think it's just, I will ask myself that question. I would continue to ask myself that question periodically. Check in with yourself. It's one of the things I like about journaling. When we think about journaling, we think about just being able to express ourselves or dump all of our thoughts in one place. But journaling does more than that. Journaling gives you a concrete place to be reflective. And what I mean by that is, if you were to write 15 years ago, all the things that you're most worried about, all the things that you're most excited about, what your immediate apprehensions are in the moment, and then you would look at it 10 years later, you would be able to see the things that are completely different.

Some of those things might be minuscule comparatively. But you might also realize that you've been worried about the same thing for 10 years, just in a different font. Now imagine instead of just journaling once over that 10-year span, you have journal entries incrementally every month and you're able to see the changes and the differences. That type of tracking is invaluable. And that's what I would hope I'd be able to give myself if I was sitting across the room. Just checking in on the philosophy, man. How has it changed?

How is it different? Where's your heart? Where's your head? What are you excited about? What do you love? What motivates you? If you could give your 15-year-old self three tools that you've learned as a therapist, and only three tools, what would you give 15-year-old you when you were going through a very challenging time and all the friends around you were getting in trouble or going to jail or passing away in a rough neighborhood? What would those three things you would say? I think those three things, I think one would be being different is a gift.

I think Gen Z, they're really comfortable with being different. We were different. Being different was an indictment on your ability to gain community and your ability to fit in. Back in my day, being different is a gift, lean into it. I would tell myself that anger, it captivates all of your awareness, but it's a terrible motivator. And I would tell myself that as long as you keep your feet moving, you have a chance. Do not stop. How angry were you? And what made you angry? Looking back, I was tremendously angry.

I think it was environmental. I think that I lived in an environment where a lot of people were frustrated because they couldn't ascend to their highest potential. And they took it out on the people around them. And I think when you live in an environment full of angry people and you're still young and impressionable, it can turn you into an angry person. And I also thought that I deserved a different life than I had. Our apartment, man, it was something. We used to have roaches and mice really badly, really badly.

And I couldn't understand why we lived that way. We seemed to be good, hardworking people, and we couldn't get out of the muck. And I didn't understand why. And I think that confusion in the mind of a child was converted into frustration and anger. And that's why when we were talking and you asked me if I played a sport, I was like, yeah, for a little bit. And then I had to start working in high school. I just started paying for my own prom. I think that the anger and frustration came from the inability to be a child that was allowed to be a child, if that makes any sense.

You didn't feel like you were able to be like a kid or have kid experiences? Not at a certain point, no. You kind of have to grow up quickly, assume responsibility, start working. Yeah, start taking control over the life you want. Yeah. That's tough. Yeah, it is tough. And I used to do this thing where I would say, you know, it's tough, but other people had it worse. It's like, no, it was tough. Period. You know, you had the frustration. Other people have challenges that are tough for them, and I had my challenges that were tough for me.

That's right, that's right. And I think that, I felt that at some point, when I was past it, it wouldn't affect me. It still did. Oh, yeah, the shadows live long. It just lingered. Yeah, it lingered, and that's, and I've come to the point where I'm fine with that because I know it's something that I'll have to constantly remind myself for the rest of my life. It's not a one and done thing. That's something that I'm going to have to cope with and overcome for the rest of my life.

Man. I'm thankful I have the tools, man. Yeah, otherwise you'd still be angry. Otherwise I'd still be angry. And now I live a life where there's nothing to be angry about. I get frustrated sometimes, but I live a wonderful life that I created for myself. And anger can be much like victimization. There's a comfort in sitting inside of anger. It does good for a while. Oh, man. Powerful. Yeah, especially when it's an identity. You know, working with youth, when I ran my youth program, there were so many young men who didn't feel heard in the house that they lived in.

They didn't feel seen. You know what gets you heard and seen really quickly? Destruction. Anger. Anger. If I flip the table over. Oh, yeah. Oh, now you hear me, see me, and you feel it. Yeah, yeah, yeah. But it also invites a kind of attention toward you that isn't very helpful or nourishing. My friend, I hope you're enjoying this episode. And the School of Greatness drops new conversations every Monday, Wednesday, and Friday around money, mindset, healing, manifestation, and relationships. And if you're not yet following the show, then you're missing all of them.

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Take one step forward at snhu.edu slash greatness. How does someone dismantle anger if that's all they've ever known? If they'd never felt heard, seen, loved, or valued, and anger is their response, how do they learn to let that go? I think one of the ways is getting out of the environment that arouses those feelings. Getting away from the people, spaces, the environments. The influences, the culture. Anger can become a culture. Really? Oh yeah, the culture of anger. Some people have families that are very angry. That's the innate response is to respond with anger.

That's always around you and that's always your influence. It's gonna be hard to take a half step back away from that. I think you have to detach from the things that kindle that feeling in order to see something different. You said that you grew up pretty angry, right? At a point in my life, I was pretty, yeah. This is like teen years or like? Yeah, teen years. But you grew up in D.C. and you're still in D.C., correct? Well, I'm in a suburb of D.C. Okay, so you're not in like, you can still be in the same city, but not in the same home or same kind of environment.

You can still move a little farther, not too far away, and be in a different space. Yeah, which to my point, the environment's completely different than the air from where it is. I wake up next to my wife, who's the happiest person I've ever met in my life. So nice, right? Every single day, I wake up to kids that are excited to see me and they love me. That's a dream. And I'm snuggling with them. I got a pimple growing on the side of my head because their hair oils are all on my face from sleeping on my pillow every night.

That's nice. Yeah, it's a beautiful life, and it'll be profoundly unfortunate to have that reality all around me, but not have the awareness to see it and experience it for me. When did you feel like you were able to start letting go of the anger? When I consciously realized that it wasn't helping me. It wasn't helpful. It wasn't doing anything for me. It went from becoming my sword. It went from being my sword and my shield to being my anger. How old were you around that time when you became aware?

Early 20s. Okay. Early 20s. I started to move into like a corporate America type space. And one of the things that happens to people and that happened to me is the things that you thought were, the things that protected you. Anger protects you in a tough neighborhood. It keeps you from being a victim. It keeps you from being bullied. But when the behaviors you have aren't helpful for you anymore, when they're not protective, when they just become prohibitive, either you can keep leaning into them and do more of what's not working or you can put your foot in the ground, pivot and decide to change something.

And the latter took me a solid, I'd say maybe seven or eight years. And in those experiences, I went to undergrad. I lived in a different place in the city where people were completely different. And I was with young professionals and I got to see something different, like different influences. I got to see the world. I traveled a little bit more. I realized how much more to my identity was uncovered outside of just. anger and frustration, as long as it made me feel something that I would describe as meaningful at the time, it was easy to hold on to.

But when it felt like it started holding me back from love and relationships, connection and community, it became painfully obvious there's something needed to change. Really? Oh yeah, absolutely, man. I didn't know how to change or where to start, but I felt it inside and I felt it deeply and I saw everything as a constant reminder. That this anger does not serve me. No, it's not serving me and it's destructive. Very destructive, right? So what was the aha moment that allowed you to start healing the anger that was inside of you?

I think it was a series of moments. I'd be lying to you if I said there was just one like definitive turning point where something happened and it just dawned on me. It happened so gradually that I can't tell you when it turned on. It's like glaucoma. Glaucoma is like one of the leading causes of blindness. Glaucoma is so tricky because it slowly takes away your peripheral vision. But you can still see. You can still see, but it slowly takes it away to the point where you don't realize that your vision is becoming more and more narrow until one day it's too late.

In a more positive way, that's kind of what happened with the anger. It just dissipated slowly as I gained more and different friends, as I found different interests, as I started to get academic success, as I started to get different types of love in my life, different experiences, as I started to learn how to receive different types of love in my life. It just slowly dissipated to the point where it wasn't there anymore. Which isn't everybody's experience. It's not. It's not, so I'm very thankful for that as well.

But how did you learn how to let it go? Because for me, I accomplished a lot of my goals and success and made money, but I still had anger inside of me. And it wasn't until I realized, oh, this energy, this frustration or anger, accomplishing the goals doesn't remove it from my heart. No, which seems like it would, right? You're like, oh, I should be happy now, but I still wasn't. I still had anger inside of me. So it took therapy, workshops, self-awareness, reflection, retreats, for me to start learning how to let it go and how to start healing those wounds that anger was tied to, that I was attached to.

And so once I started healing some of those wounds or stories or beliefs around events, then I could have more grace for myself, have more self-love and acceptance, and start to release some of that frustration, those triggers, right? So were there any, did you learn this from anyone? Did you go to therapy? Did you have a workshop? Did you read a book? Where did you learn the tools to let go of anger and heal? I think it was the feedback from my environment. Really? Yeah, it just, things started feeling different for me.

And I think it unlocked parts of my identity that I liked a lot better. And there is this indescribable, but certainly palpable feeling that you get when you, I think self-love is packaged and sold in a very weird way, but when you begin to like yourself in a different way, I like who I am when I am not angry. I like how people treat me when I am not angry. I like how I treat myself when I am not angry. My quiet moments are more peaceful.

I have more clarity. In terms of goals, my goals are more diverse now. It's not just about surviving and making more money. It's about doing things that please me. And then it expands. Oh, I really enjoy working in a community and working with other people and helping them. I found more purpose. And that purpose, the more you find your purpose and you lean into it, you realize that that purpose has sub-genres and pockets and other categories that you can lean into. And life just feels better.

And I like that. You just started feeling better. That's great. For someone who's done the reading, done the journaling, done the meditating, done all this work on themselves, but they still feel stuck. They still feel like, I'm not getting the breakthrough. I'm not creating the results I want. What do you think is the next thing for them? Take a look at your goals. What is it that you're trying to accomplish? And is it reasonable for who you are in this moment? Sometimes it's not, I need to try harder.

It's not, I need to recruit more of these programs and I need to learn more. And no, sometimes we just need to reflect. What is it that I'm trying to do? And if these obstacles are in my way, perhaps they're not a statement of my capability. Perhaps the obstacles in my way are a warning sign that perhaps I'm moving too fast or I'm moving in a direction that I'm just not ready for in the moment. Your goals, goals are beautiful. Goals, they're wonderful. Set all the goals you can and try to achieve them.

But if you are knocking your head up against a wall, Louis, I think that it is indicative that you need to stop and probably go in a different direction. The analogy I use a lot is just about a newborn baby. If a newborn baby just had the capability to walk fresh out of the womb, I don't know if those tiny legs and that weak musculature would be able to support the weight. You have to do one thing at a time. First, you learn to hold your head up.

Then you learn to scoot. Then you learn to crawl. Then you learn to get up and fall down a bunch of times. It's a gradual process, but there are way points in between that are developmentally appropriate. It's obvious when we see a baby. It's not always obvious when we see ourselves. That's true. So what points are, what are you skipping? Let's reverse map and deconstruct this thing. Maybe there are things that you need to work on in between where you are now and where you ultimately wanna be that deserve more of your time, attention, attunement, and awareness.

What are they? And let's get more comfortable with understanding that we need to spend more time there. It's okay. Yeah. What would you say is a self-sabotaging pattern that's become so normalized in today's society that most people don't even recognize it as self-sabotage? Oh my goodness. I think just piggybacking off of what we just talked about, I think it's trying to be in too much of a hurry to be over something. And in the book, it's one of the uncomfortable truths I talk about. I'm ready to be over something that happened to me.

It's like when people put the ED at the end of Hill as if it's a destination, then you know that. No, it's forever, man. No, it's forever. Music is a journey. It's a forever journey. Even when you say that, it doesn't really encapsulate all that that encompasses. But I think that it's when we're in too much of a rush to be over something. And as opposed to just sitting in it and recognizing what the hard moments are here to teach us, recognizing what the hard moments are indicating about where we are on this road, we're ready to just zoom past it.

We're ready to say, you know, I'm unbothered or I'm not worried about that thing anymore. And there's something that we verbalize and we say, but we don't feel deeply. And that causes an incongruence because your inner experience doesn't match your presentation or your outer experience. And when your inner experience is one thing, but you have to present something different, it creates a gap. And in between that gap moves a lot of inauthenticity. Yes. You're out of integrity. You're out of harmony. You're out of alignment. That's right.

Right. You're trying to project something that's not true. Yeah. And you know that it's not true, mainly. So then you get stuck in the cycle of performer because you're not the thing. So you have to project the image of being the thing out into the world. You're playing a character. And at some point it gets exhausting. Exhausting. Then what? Because I think as a younger person, you know, playing the character might be a fun game, but as you accumulate life and life experiences, and if you find a partner, oh boy, finding a partner is different because you can't hide from the person you live with.

They will see you. And then you start building this life and things will start collapsing because you can't, you can't, the easiest thing to do, the easiest move to make if you want to destroy everything is to not be the thing, but to perform the thing. Oh yeah. Because the second that you're tired or you let your guard down or you really walk in a space of authenticity, all these things that are pillared by you moving the furniture around in your mind in order to, you know, do the things that you think the world needs you to do or be the person that you think the world needs you to be.

As soon as you're compromised even a little bit, it becomes a house of cards. Everything falls down one by one. It does. Playing a character is exhausting. I wrote a book called The Mask of Masculinity nine years ago now. And for me, it was about the masks that men wear. And it was my own reflection of the mask that I was wearing most of my life to try to fit in, to try to belong. It was all strategies to survive, psychologically, emotionally, right? Which felt like physical survival, but even though it wasn't.

And you can only wear those masks for so long before it just all crumbles down, you know, before it's so exhausting, so overwhelming, so daunting, and you lose yourself in a mask and you're like, who am I? You haven't practiced being who you are. That's exhausting. You haven't reinforced it. You've been playing the character the entire time. It's exhausting, man. Once the character leaves, what are you left with? Scary. It's scary if you don't know who you are, how to trust yourself, how to like yourself, like you said.

It's scary, but- You have to practice those things. It's not something that just, you know, dawns on you out of thin air. You have to continuously practice that. Absolutely. In the book, I talk about if you want to be who you say you are, prove it to yourself. Practice it. You want to be a genuine person? Make sure that the relationships that you're open and vulnerable in, in your words, that you're open and vulnerable in your actions, even when it's scary because on the other side of vulnerability is possible pain.

Practice it. You say you're a generous person? Be generous. What do you provide in your community? Go donate your time somewhere. You know, you say that you are a family-oriented person? Close the laptop and you don't have to, you don't have to play with the kids for three hours, but spend some time with your family doing the hardest thing that any human can do, and that's being present. You have to, when we think about things that we have to prove, we think about proving things to other people.

Trust, you know. I trust you when you prove to me who you are over time and consistently, but we have to have that same relationship with ourselves. I trust that I am who I say I am when I prove it to myself consistently throughout time. What do you think is going to be the biggest challenge for people going into the next few years of their lives with where the economy is at, with where AI is at, with where social media is at, with the uncertainties of the world financially, politically, wars, with all the uncertainty coming, what is the biggest challenge that human beings face as a therapist perspective?

Knowing what to believe. What's real. Knowing what to believe, what's true, what's in my best interest. I think that there is a comfort. You just talked about survivor. There's a comfort and certainty, and the newness of our evolving world gives us a profound sense of uncertainty. How are you going to be okay? What does your future look like? What are your future economic opportunities look like when the computer can take your job? I saw a joke on Instagram where it's this guy and he's playing his dad.

And he says, when my dad is trying to figure out whether or not AI is real, he's like, son, is this real? And he takes the phone and you see what he's watching. And there's a guy on the pier and he's fishing and an alligator comes up. And then the alligator jumps out of the water, puts up his dukes. And he's like, jeez, dad, like my goodness. But with the proliferation of technology and AI, it's going to become harder and harder to decide what's real and what's not.

Just what, I had, my first phone was a Nokia 5190, you know, the big brick dream. Only game I had on it was Snake and Tetris. And now just in what, 20 something years, I have unlimited possibilities on my cellular device. This technology is only going to get better. I think knowing what to believe is going to trickle down into knowing what to trust. And that is going to dovetail into not only trusting things, but trusting people. And if you marry that with taking away third spaces, where people don't meet in person anymore, where even romantic relationships are a hotbed for skepticism and distrust.

What happens to humans when we lose our desire for connection? I don't know. I'm not going to pretend to know. But I still think that there's great hope. I don't think it's doom and gloom. I read this magnificent book called Sapiens. And in the book, it said, if you took somebody from the 1600s and planted them in the 1700s, the world wouldn't be that remarkably different. But if you took somebody from like the early 1900s and you transplanted them a thousand times, the world wouldn't be that remarkably different.

And I think that's a great way to look at it. Years later, they would have no idea where they are for a hundred years later memory even still yeah, you know technology It changes the way advancements go it we think it's it advances like one two Three four and it feels like it's starting to advance like one two, four eight sixteen twenty four Like the quantum leaps are becoming more and more obvious So it does give me a a Lot of consternation around where we're going and what we're doing but I think a Lot of the answer is going to be around tapping back into our humanity.

Mm-hmm Developing actual community face-to-face communication. Yeah, that's it, man. Yeah In person it's gonna be key. I feel like it's already starting man. Did you see the thing the Gen Z kids? They're getting rid of the smartphones and I got like the flip phones. I like that. Yeah, I like that Yeah, I think I think I think we're collectively kind of over it man Now I'd always pull you back in though. It's I mean, hopefully hopefully there's a way to create balance with it You know, that's the goal.

Yeah, I hope so balance and harmony. I Surely hope so and in terms of just mental health, you know more people deciding to be Practitioners we don't have enough of us for the need It's just simply not enough of us man for the needs of the world Fall is here and if you've been thinking about Replacing your windows doors or siding now is the perfect time to give your home a fresh look and prepare for the cooler months Ahead with window world whether you want to boost your curb appeal bring more natural light into your home or enjoy greater comfort as the temperatures Begin to drop window world has you covered with high quality products professionally installed by trusted local experts and right now Window world is making it even easier to get started with financing options available for qualified buyers With over 30 years of experience and more than 25 million windows sold window world is America's largest exterior Remodeling company for a reason make this the season to start your next home improvement project visit window world Dot-com slash podcast today to schedule your free quote.

That's window world comm slash podcast window world America's exterior remodeler. I See so many good ideas sit in notes apps for months and the people who ship find ways to remove Friction and keep moving for 20 years building a website meant templates Dragging boxes around losing a weekend ending up with something that looks like everyone else's well That's over you type one sentence I'm a personal trainer in Denver and I need a website and hosting her builds it in minutes Then you can change it by asking warmer colors add this photo move that up.

No code No design skills 10 million websites run on hosting her and it's rated 4.7 stars on Trustpilot and plans to start at $2.99 a month with your domain and email included that idea in your notes app The website isn't the thing stopping you anymore go to hosting her Dot-com slash greatness and use the discount code greatness for 10% off. That's hosting her Dot-com slash greatness and use code greatness for 10% off. How many therapists are there in America right now? Do we know Oh, who knows?

I don't know not enough not enough. Yeah, not not nearly enough. I think there's a severe shortage and imagine if people can learn to be their own therapist in a sense where they can learn certain tools and skills about their Emotional understanding and start, you know, I'm always going to be wanting support mentorship therapy coaching Even though I have a lot of the tools, but imagine learning to be With the tools yourself and practicing them if you can't afford it or if you don't have access to someone right away Just people would be better people in general if they had these tools like what you're talking about in your book Yeah, I think but I think it's starting though.

Of course. I think we're starting in a way just think about Just think about the parent the father that your dad had. Oh, yeah, it's her different of emotional the capability Emotional bandwidth just his his aperture for how he sees life. Think about that versus the kind of dad that you are. Mm-hmm How different that is? Oh so different night and day. Yeah, so those things are already happening It's just not been not enough time has elapsed for us to see the fruits of that labor What do you think your kids are gonna say or maybe your grandkids are to say, you know Our dad didn't have what we have now like you think they're gonna keep saying that.

Oh, yeah, absolutely What are they gonna say in 50 years that like, you know, my dad was as great as he was and this and the therapist But he didn't have what you know, I need to break generational trauma still like what is that generational trauma? That our grandkids are gonna need to break. That is such a good question, man The way I think of it where's phrase in my mind is what are my kids gonna have to forgive me for oh Yeah, what is that?

Yeah, I think it's gonna be and you can be the best possible dad you can be Yeah, we'll keep the kids out of therapy Why is that just because challenges occur the kids don't just survive the the worst parts of you They have to survive your personality There are parts of your personality that are just going to create gaps and divots in One one of the most frustrating parts about being a parent is that we do not fundamentally understand the needs of our children It's impossible to keep up with Wow Yeah And so those gaps are gonna be where need exists and they're gonna be things that you simply can't see I think what my kids Is gonna be resilience You don't think they're gonna have the resilience that we had.

No It's been so easy Comparative Yeah, I didn't have AC and now my house doesn't go above 60 degrees I can't go to bed without at 69 Oh, please you see too hot at 69. I'm like Dude, it's but resilience, huh? It's gonna be resilience. These things are too easy too fast too much convenience instant We're too protective. Uh-huh Interesting your kids ain't going down the street by themselves to go play at the neighbor's house. Yeah, we're always there They they don't get to develop those parts of their personalities without us around interesting.

Yeah, and Huh? I think it's gonna be a resilience thing I think as we spend a lot of time giving our kids what we wish we had and then we yeah But we think they need some of what we had Yeah They do and we give them as much of what we had as we can But we have to understand that our children's realities and our children's upbringings. They're not up you know, it's funny and I'm sure there's gonna be a balance between me and my wife, but I'm like this morning like my you know, I have twin girls that are 10 months old and I'm noticing that one of them It's gonna be hard because one of them is starting to crawl more than the other.

Mm-hmm, and I'm like stop, baby Like I'm like stop babying the other one like let her fall a little bit. Let her crawl Yeah, she's like but she's a baby. You're like, it's like she's a baby. I'm like, okay. Yes, I get it But you can't hold her all day, you know as sweet as they are you can't carry her everywhere all day not that she's doing That I'm just making a case for us. You can't hold them all day and make sure everything is perfect You don't want to make it's not perfect, but let them crawl and struggle and she let but them You know what?

I mean? And she's like, but when she's making this I'm starting to cry you should kick I'm like no letter let her struggle. Yeah, and let her feel a little pain It's not like it's I'm not hurting her. She just can't get her arm up to move right now, and that's okay That's but that give it five seconds. That's the great big wilderness though Lewis That's the wilderness because as parents especially as parents within our age range We see our kids struggling as our own personal failures.

Yeah, you're inconvenience is my and not to see your wife Yeah, but a lot of parents can bounce with this. I've done this before so I I can identify with it Yeah, your struggle is my personal failure. You're uncomfortable. That's my personal failure. You're hungry. You should struggle. Yeah, right Absolutely. How else will you learn? How to navigate that self resilience, you know, I said on Instagram one time You know my job as a parent isn't always to make you feel better I know that sound that's gonna sound crazy to someone, you know My daughter felt really guilty about something and I wanted to swoop in and just like no don't feel guilty ABC no, I let her know that she wasn't a bad person, but I allow her to feel those feelings How can you navigate something that you never had the autonomy the leash and just the space to fully navigate?

It's okay to fully navigate guilt within the confines. Let's safe confines, you know You need to have parental guardrails, of course, but it's okay to feel bad about something that you did Yeah And then figure out and then realize you don't like that feeling and figure out what you can do to self-soothe and Climb your way out of it eventually You know, of course, there's a limit to allowing your kids your struggle. Yeah, that resilience pieces is Interval man healthy safe struggle, you know create the healthy safe struggle, but allow them to struggle, right?

So we'll see I could see myself. I think I saw Steve Harvey say like I ruined my my girls Like my sons I was hard on but my girls I just gave them everything I spelled them constantly He's like I screwed them. I ruined them. Let's do that a lot. You know, I mean, it's like and I could see myself Potentially going down that route because they're so sweet. They're so cute. They're so innocent all these things But it's like I feel like you've got to create some type of even if it's a game even it's an activity Creating struggle and adversity in a safe context.

Otherwise, you're robbing people of a potential Future of greater game. Yeah, absolutely You robbed them of the ability to figure it out themselves my daughter my youngest daughter She man immediacy is a thing for her. She wants a now now And I was realizing that when she wants it now she gets it now So now we practice waiting even if I can do it right now say, okay Give me a second daddy is doing something I will get this for you in a couple of minutes and she's old enough to be able to know she has a concept of So say hey, it says 510 on the clock on the oven when that last number says 20 I'll get up and do it.

Okay, you have to practice waiting. You have to practice waiting because her inability. I mean, she's for Reasonably, she's it's it's developmentally appropriate for her. Don't have it there. Yeah, she doesn't have that Yeah, but if we don't practice it at four, she becomes a seven eight nine year old You don't have the ability it only becomes harder it gets harder so we've been practicing waiting that's good And then at the end I give her the affirmation baby did such a good job waiting. Thank you so much What did you want to get show me go to the pantry?

Show me the thing that you wanted or explain to me the thing that you were trying to tell me my wife and I trying To have a conversation and the kids a little but in skis they come in They want to have a full conversation in between us conversing. Wait a minute. Mommy and daddy are talking. I see you right there I see you give me a second when I'm done talking to mommy I will talk to you and you have to practice waiting. Well, it's beautiful man Your new book is called it all starts when you do how to do the real work of self-healing.

That's right I want to make sure everyone gets a copy of the book if you're looking for tools to help you improve the quality of your life heal transform And understand the emotions that seem overwhelming make sure you guys grab a copy Two final questions for you here This one is called the three truths so imagine hypothetically it's your last day on earth many many years away I'm I thank you because you put a cap to my life. Are you like 50 years? You said daddy was like that many?

You get to live as long as you want but at your last day on earth Okay, and you get to create and accomplish and experience all the beauties and joys of this this world But on your last day you have to take all your work with you It's a conversation your book your content gone hypothetical, okay However, you get to leave behind three lessons to the world. I called three truths. What would those be for you? Give me a second. Let me process that And this is all that we would have access of your content or these three truths These are only three things that leave behind only care artifacts.

I got you All right. So I think the first one is They give me instructions Anything? Okay lessons instructions thoughts. The first one is always tell the truth to yourself Mmm, even when it's uncomfortable Especially when it's uncomfortable Always tell the truth to yourself but not to others Well when you practice something truth to yourself, it becomes easier to tell others so one bleeds into the other the second one will be Being present is a lifelong practice Continue to practice being present And three Just just want to cover the book it all starts when you do on the title of the book Don't get good at waiting Even I tell my daughter to wait That's something completely different.

Don't get don't get so good at waiting that you miss opportunities. Yeah, absolutely Deserves. Yeah, don't rob yourself of the beauty of life They should be waiting for something. That is not promised to you that's beautiful care and I want to acknowledge you man for putting yourself out there I know this has been a journey over the last five years of you creating content and sharing with the world So keep doing it man. Thank you. It's buying a lot of people. We need your work. So Keep it up, man And I'm gonna give you your flowers too because I've watched a lot of your podcast and you do something that I inspire that not Inspire, but I beg clients to do all the time.

We talk about it This is the one thing if you don't do anything else do this be curious. Mm-hmm. A curious mind is a catalyst of greatness. Mm-hmm That's every single time. Yeah, man So thank you for being curious and putting that version of masculinity out into the world Because it's well needed and there's so many young men not just young men But especially young men that could benefit from having an example like you. I'm so pretty sure it was just a man Man, thank you.

I appreciate it final question. What's your definition of greatness? The definition of greatness to me is closing the gap Between who you say you are how you show up in the world. Hmm Narrow the gap. Hmm snap gear gains. My man. I appreciate it. Appreciate you. Thanks, brother. Absolutely, man. Powerful my friend I hope you're enjoying this episode right now because we are on a mission to impact a hundred million lives every Single week and every follow here on this podcast helps us reach more people Make sure to hit the follow at the top of this show's page right now It's a single biggest thing that you can do to support the show and the impact of us reaching you every single time We have new episodes.

I appreciate you and I can't wait to see you in the next episode. I Hope you enjoyed today's episode and it inspired you on your journey towards greatness Make sure to check out the show notes in the description for a full rundown of today's episode With all the important links and if you want weekly exclusive bonus episodes with me Personally as well as ad free listening then make sure to subscribe to our greatness plus channel exclusively on Apple Podcasts share this with a friend on social media and leave us a review on Apple podcasts as well Let me know what you enjoyed about this episode in that review I really love hearing feedback from you and it helps us figure out how we can support and serve you moving forward and I want to remind you if no one has told you lately that you are loved you are worthy and You matter and now it's time to go out there and do something great With The US Bank smartly visa signature card you earn an unlimited 2% cash back on every purchase no quarterly activations No categories to track just unlimited 2% cash back on every purchase Think about those bigger everyday purchases travel groceries things for the house where afterward you realize I could have earned cash back on that That's the kind of opportunity that adds up over time Visit usbank.com Slash smartly card to learn more the creditor and issuer of this card is US Bank National Association pursuant to a license from Visa USA Inc Some restrictions may apply who knew Walmart business could help a bustling school district stay on budget principal Lewis knew he uses Walmart business To easily get the items his elementary school needs our tax-exempt status works online and in-store and with our tight budgets They have everything we need at prices I love expense management tools help him stay on top of what he's spending I keep track of hundreds of things every day Jenny get out of there Thankfully Walmart business lets me keep track of all our expenses in one place Aaron.

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