Your Mind Has Four Traps. Here's How to Walk Out of Each One. | Pascal Auclair

Key Takeaway

When experiencing pleasure—a beautiful moment, a good meal, meaningful conversation—notice if your mind tries to grasp, preserve, or fear losing it. Instead, practice 'vertical attention': dive fully into the present experience with curiosity, like water soaking into a sponge. Ask yourself: 'What is this beauty? What is this pleasure?' Let the experience nourish you without timeline-based thinking about how to keep it or get more. This shift from clinging to savoring unlocks genuine enjoyment.

Episode Overview

Dan Harris and Dharma teacher Pascal Auclair explore the Buddha's teaching on the Four Kinds of Clinging—ways our minds get caught and entangled in suffering. They discuss how to recognize these patterns (clinging to sense pleasures, views, rituals, and self-identity) and offer practical mindfulness techniques to unhook from these tendencies while maintaining humor and self-compassion in the process.

Full Transcript

Transcript of Your Mind Has Four Traps. Here's How to Walk Out of Each One. | Pascal Auclair from 10% Happier. Auto-generated from episode audio; may contain minor errors.

Hey gang, welcome to the 10% Happier podcast. I'm your host Dan Harris. Today we're talking about one of the Buddha's lists. As you may know, the Buddha was uh an obsessive uh list maker in his quest to help us upgrade our minds. He made all sorts of lists, the four noble truths, the seven factors of enlightenment. I could go on. Today we are specifically talking about a list uh called the four kinds of clinging. These are ways in which our minds get caught up. So we're going to talk about these uh these four ways in which uh we get embroiled or caught up or entangled and then some ways uh to unhook.

My guest is the great Dharma teacher Pascal Oakclair who's been on this show before um and he has been studying and practicing Buddhism since 1997. So he's been at this for a minute. He's also a co-founder and guiding teacher of True North Insight. Pascal Oclair coming up. A few things before we hear from our sponsors. If you haven't already checked out my newish meditation app, 10% with Dan Harris, I would love for you to do so. Many people fall prey to the myth that taking care of yourself is somehow self-indulgent.

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The whole point of this app is to walk you through the unlocking of this upward spiral. If you sign up, you'll get adree versions of this podcast. You'll get a growing library of meditations from many of the world's greatest teachers, a growing library of courses from many of those same teachers, and we do weekly live video sessions where we meditate together. It's a chance for you to be able to ask your questions of me and many of our teachers as well. The idea there being that habit uh change science, the research into what it takes to form and maintain habits shows that social support, in other words, doing it in the carpool lane is a great way to boot up and maintain a habit.

I know I said a lot, but I do hope you'll come check it out. You can sign up at danharris.com. Again, that's danharris.com. Uh there's a free 14-day trial if you want to check it out before you spend any money. We'll be right back after this. This episode is sponsored by BetterHelp. For some people, summer is their favorite season. Travel picks up. Kids are out of school and adventure is the focus. For others, juggling it all can be tough and can lead to overwhelm and counting down the minutes until the kids are back in school.

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BetterHel therapists work according to a strict code of conduct and are fully licensed in the US. You don't have to say yes to everything this summer. Find support in therapy. Sign up and get 10% off at betterhelp.com/happier. betterhelp.com/happier. betterhelp.com/happier. That's betterhp.com/happier. Pascal Oclair, welcome back to the show. Hey Dan, so good to see you and hear you. Happy to be back. It's great to see and hear you always. Yeah. Before we dive in, like uh how you doing? What's what's new? I'm good. I'm good. Well, uh what's new?

Nothing's new. Was same old five aggregates, same old body sensations, sounds going around. And um yeah, no, maybe deepening of practice. I'm surprised at this. I shouldn't be, you know, but but very slowly. I'm I'm a slow learner, but I think I'm I can see that I'm making progress every year. So, this this these teachings are kind of um getting slowly integrated more and more every month and uh and it feels good. It's good. Do you feel the same? Well, episodically I feel like uh some progress, but uh sometimes I feel the opposite of progress.

you know, this this conversation uh where you're talking about the fact that wa look like I'm actually it's it's penetrating my thick skull these these Buddhist teachings uh that it's nice to see that it reminds me I I got a question recently uh from one of the subscribers to my app who was joking about the fact that she hears me say the same [ __ ] all the time like I'm just constantly saying the same things and so are all of the teachers on the app and on this show and Yet she says every time she hears it, even though she can predict what we're about to say, she's glad we're saying it because she needs to hear it again because we just forget over and over and over.

There's something about the human mind where we can take in wisdom via a podcast, a book, a meditation retreat, whatever. And it just, you know, we just the next day we're sucked back into TikTok. And so that that's what's coming up in my mind as I listen to you talk um very gingerly about your progress. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. We need to hear this stuff a lot. It sinks in very very slowly and every time we hear it, we've never heard it now before, you know, it's always like news because it's, you know, we hear it now in this context, in this situation, with this uh mind state.

So, so yeah, I'm exactly like you. I keep repeating myself. I I know everything Joseph Goldstein is going to say. He says a couple of words and I know the whole next 10 minutes. And yet it's good to hear it to make it uh known now. Just now this time. Yes. And what what I believe you're saying is that if we stick with it as you have since 1997, good things might happen. happen. happen. Yeah. Yeah. And I like I I was hearing u don't even remember who was talking about the you know how it keeps unfolding like how many times have I thought you know oh I understand what is mindfulness now.

Now I understand. I've been thinking this for 30 years. So it just and I think it's never going to end. And somebody was saying, you know, this thing about the Buddha reaching enlightenment, that's very kind of patriarchal uh kind of orgasmic men orgasm, you know, like I think it's going to be very different. I think it's going to keep opening all the time. The the meaning of things, the nuances, you know, that's the the impermanence there uh at play. like a flower that just keeps blooming to new levels over and over.

over. over. Yeah, we'll see. We'll see. You mentioned right at the top uh when I said how you doing, you said ah same old body, same old five aggregates. Uh just for people who don't know what the five aggregates are. You don't have to give a whole discourse, but just just in case anybody bumped on that, what what what are you referring to there? Well, first I was referring to a prior conversation we had a few years ago on the five aggregates because we did a whole podcast on that.

So I I was uh remembering this as I was seeing you and five aggregates is one of the uh teachings from the Buddha one of the lists as you mentioned you know and it's a division of the human experience in two parts you know we could divide human experience into two parts maybe we could say oh there's the bodily stuff and there's the mental stuff well the Buddha divided you know the human experience in many ways in six six senses in 32 parts of the body but also in Five aggregates, five aspects of our experience in which we get often uh caught tied around or obsess upset about or confused about and uh yeah that podcast I think is might still be available.

It's good stuff. It is available and I'll drop a link in the show notes. People should go listen to it. You just said the five aggregates are five ways in which we get caught. I described the four um uh the list that we're going to talk about today, the four kinds of clinging as four ways in which we get caught. So what is the difference? difference? difference? We get caught in so many ways. We get obsessed in so many ways. We get worked up in so many ways that the Buddha uh offered many different lists and these are two of them.

Uh the one that we're looking at today I like because it seemed to me very applicable. That's what I like about it. You know, when what I do mostly is teach uh retreat, people come on retreat and often I'll want to give this teaching at the end of the retreat because I know people are going back home and this is what they're going to meet uh tomorrow, during the week, at work, in the family life, uh you know, at home, in relationships. Uh so I like that list because to me it's very very applicable.

The five aggregates is deep stuff. It's good stuff. As deep as what we're going to say see today, but maybe more a little bit harder to understand the five ways we uh the four ways we uh we cling this what we're talking about today I think is uh is very applicable very people will recognize this. I think as soon as we'll mention the different aspects people will oh yeah I know that really well. Okay. Well let's let's dive in. Let's march through the list. Uh the the first way the first again of four ways in which we cling.

The first entry on this list is sense pleasure clinging. I think that's probably obvious but um unpack it please. please. please. Yeah. First there's a recognition in here that we're sensitive beings. We're we have senses. So we are constantly touched. We're constantly receiving you know some some data at the sense doors. You know we see things. We hear things. We feel things, sensations in the body. We smell, we we taste things and and uh and we have emotions and thoughts, you know, and so there's constantly some stimuli happening at the sense doors and the human nature is made in such a way that we're sensitive.

It's not just a sound. It's not just a smell. It's a pleasant smell. It's an unpleasant smell. It's a good idea. It's a idea that brings fear. It's an unpleasant idea. It's uh you know it's something we love seeing. It's something we find ugly, you know. So we're sensitive in a very very uh nuanced way. We're we're and so being sensitive as we are, it makes total sense that when something is pleasant, something heard, you know, somebody says something you want to hear. You're like, "Oh, Dan, you're so amazing.

Pascal, you're so it's amazing what you just did." You know, it feels good. And so it's very natural that we would uh we would tend to favor that. And that's where this verb comes in. This very important verb clinging. What is clinging? It's kind of a it means uh you know grasping. It means uh being thirsty for. So we want we want to see beautiful things. We want them to stay. We want uh we want to hear beautiful things. It feels good. So uh and the way we're not so well made I think the the way we're very defective human beings and you know I'm presenting all this and I would like the listener to really uh consider is that true for me is that do I recognize something like we I want us to bring our full intelligence here and and check this out and just see for ourselves do I recognize something in there or not.

And so um what happen is when uh when something is beautiful happens for us the way our mind is kind of defective is that instead of just rejoicing you would think it would be obvious you know we would enjoy uh uh appreciate you know uh get fed nourished by beauty you know but often it's not what happens often what we do is we get a little uptight you know like we want to keep we don't want to lose we want more of we start kind of defend don't touch this this is mine now I want to keep we get uh we start to fear will I lose this will I be able to maintain this and so this is the the the kind of the thing that happened that makes it um difficult for human beings to experience pleasure because then we start to project anticipate and fear and get anxious this is so weird now you would think we could just appreciate stuff but I don't know.

Do you recognize something in there for yourself, Dan? Dude, yeah, of course. I mean, the Buddha was really articulate about this, unsurprisingly, but he he was not anti-pleasure, at least the way I understand it, but he was saying that there is, you know, this way lies danger. I believe he described it to, and this is kind of a a vivid um simile, but he described it, he said it's like uh licking honey from the the edge of a razor. Um, so yeah, like the honey can taste good, but it's it's tricky.

And I it just reminds me, and this is a story as old as time, but I was interviewing last night a a guy named Jet Lee, who was a huge um martial arts movie star, especially in the '9s. Um, and he had everything. He he had been a champion Chinese martial artist, and then he um became a movie star. He got super rich, and he just like it was never enough. I mean, by the way, this is, as you know, the Buddha's story himself. Like, he was a a wealthy prince and had everything.

Um, but it was not enough. He was still unhappy. Um, and I think that's the razor that lurks under the honey. Yeah. Yeah. And you're so right to say like the problem is not the fact that things are pleasurable or can be or sometimes are. It's really what we're And the list here looks at clinging. So that's what I find beautiful about this teaching is that it's it's asking us like is there another way to relate to this? Is there another way to than clinging? And and that's what we call maybe uh practice meditative practice or you know uh um mindfulness is that by encountering pleasure and becoming aware of our relationship to it we can learn to react differently to respond differently to what is pleasurable and maybe learn to relax and feel and recognize wow this is good this feels good this is beautiful this meeting of these people tonight we got we you know we got together we're having fun to really enjoy it and be able to actually soak it to be really nourished by beauty.

And when I teach meditation on retreat, I invite people to go do walking meditation outside. And I say like, you know, like notice we're often in retreats, we're in the beautiful nature, you know, countryside. And and I I invite people to actually notice beauty and see what the mind can do. Sometimes I go, "Oh, I need to move to the country and why did I I don't come so often? and I should come more often and and so this will kind of um create turbulence in the mind but there's another way possible there's another way where it's uh there's a a way to be kind of conscious about what's happening oh there's this experience of beauty now of uh meaning of richness of uh preciousness something precious is happening let me actually be intimate with that be there instead of kind of projecting anticipating it will end just be there be there.

And I think that one thing that really helps with this is is the kind of uh in a way the bad news is is that I think it can be helpful if we know very very deeply that all these things all these pleasure at the different sense doors are by nature ephemeral. It's their nature to come and go. The more we know this, the less we will cling. I want it to stay. No, I know it won't stay. That's not in its nature. That's not what it does.

But it can uh arise and be felt and actually in a way I think of it as nourishing for the soul. You know, we nourishing. So yeah, we can we can lick the honey, but there's an angle you have to lick it up and not cut yourself on the razor. Well, okay, drill down on that. um very specifically if somebody's listening to this and thinking okay well how can I enjoy the many pleasures of being alive um a beautiful day um or maybe a rainy day but I like a rainy day or uh a great meal or a great social encounter how can I enjoy it without clinging and thereby ruining it ruining it ruining it to me the solution lies in what we call and you've heard so much about everyone listening mindfulness so mindfulness is that quality of presence that is not trying to acquire or keep anything.

It's it's a it's a it's a quality of presence that is marked characterized by curiosity by it's very candid. It has candidness to it you know it's uh it's fresh it has freshness to it. Oh what is that? What is beauty? You that? What is beauty? You know not I love beauty. I want to like what is the experience of beauty to me this the the way out of the trouble is that kind of presence that is really curious about what is happening wow human beings are sensitive and they get sometimes to experience beauty as it's happening I want to be curious about it what is what is that beauty what is that meaning what is that preciousness so to kind of bring extra attention like a very generous presence to what is happening as if you didn't know what it was.

That's the kind of beginner's mind, the don't know mind instead of like wanting to acquire like I like this. I want the recipe for this. How can I like what is what is what is deliciousness? What is what is what I call delicious? So it you see like this brings the attention in the event in the like the mindfulness is like the water going in a sponge. The way I would say to play with this is to try to see if I can come closer to this.

If I can really experience this, not not just like keep it going but really know it in an intimate way. So to me that's one of the way out of trouble around this is to come close to enter into to uh embrace to dive in. In essence, use your ability to pay attention. Use the innate curiosity we all have to savor experiences like a brownie or um a great conversation with a friend uh at a party without toppling forward into the next thing or wondering how we can make this last or what we can how um uh how can I get another brownie, whatever.

and and and the mind will wander. Uh, of course, you'll those those thoughts will still come up, but can you bring your attention consistently and gently back to what's happening right now as a way to be with it without the clinging? Yeah. So, very very I think of it as very very vertical. It's very immediate. It's not timeline, you know, like I've always like watermelon. I wish there will be watermelon this summer. But it becomes very very vertical. And that's what we call practice. That's what you know that's the aspect of mindfulness I hear you uh bring forward here.

It's very very immediate and what I like about it also is uh and it's so rich things become palpable. It it makes whatever is pleasurable um even more pleasurable because we dive under concept. It's not the idea that I like that kind of music. I like that kind of situation. It invites me to dive in. And it's really like the rock going down at the bottom of the ocean, you know, instead of the the cork that stays at the at the, you know, floating on top of the water like, "Oh, I love this.

I like No, it's it's it's much more like it requires a lot of attention. It requires a diving underneath ideas, you know, to really experience. And there's a freedom in that because there's a there's a freshness in this. I'm freed from my thoughts. I'm freed from my tendency to to grasp and cling. I get to actually fully experience this. And in mindfulness, I think in the its most uh pure version, and it can be just a second, I don't mind, you know, but in the when it's real mindfulness, the timeline drops.

I'm sorry, but there's no timeline. In mindfulness, when I'm really there with something, it's just now. It's just now. There's no it's not conceived in the way of a timeline. It's just this is the experience. I'm fully there for it and the next moment then we don't know what's going to happen. There might not be mindfulness. There might be habits of mind of clinging of course and and in those moments when the mind swoops in and puts you back into the conventional timeline and uh the wanting of more and whatever, it's just about starting again and again and again.

Yeah. and noticing the kind of ouch or the uh that that we're caught again in like clinging, anxiety, fear of losing which is absolutely natural. So so natural I would talking to the listener here I don't want anybody to blame themselves for clinging for for getting tight around pleasure or displeasure by the way uh it's so natural very very natural yet and that's the whole path of the Buddha as I understand it it's somebody who's saying thinking there must be another way there must be another way to relate to this that my mind won't get upset or fixated you know plus I would say also uh done that there's a kind of particular joy that I think of as vipasa joy or inside joy or meditation joy is that when we like now we're going to talk about you know for like an hour or so about uh clinging the mind that you know gets hooked up on you know take up something and obsess about it and we hear about it for all this time and then we go back to life and there's a particular kind of joy that comes up that is the joy of seeing when we get caught you when the mind clings.

So we we're going to talk about these four kinds of clinging and then tomorrow you'll see one of them and you'll go like oh I got one this is clinging this is exactly so the joy of seeing the teaching unfold you know it uh so I I cling all the time all day long I cling to all kinds of things but when I get to see it I'm like oh Pascal you just clung to this was pleasurable and you clung to it or this was unpleasurable and now you know life has stuck uh you know there's just this just this thing that was said that I didn't like and the whole dynamism of life has stopped now I'm focused on this and the whole world has stopped and I'm going to you know chew on that bone for a while you know and then I can see oh Pascal look at this it's exactly as it's told in the dharma in the teachings you know this happens of course of course of course yeah seeing how ridiculous the mind is is one of the many dharma delicacies for sure And I want to underline one of the things that Pascal is saying here, which is that it is very helpful when looking at the more noxious tendencies of the mind to have a sense of humor, to be playful, and you can hear this coming through not only in Pascal's words, but in the way in which he says those words.

There's a there's a real sense of humor there. The eyes are gleaming. Um, and and I have just found that maintaining that attitude has been essential. Speaking out as a small business owner, I hate the thought of losing customers, of letting them slip through the cracks. If you're a small business owner or considering becoming one, that may strike fear in your heart as well. One of the best ways to let customers slip away is missed calls. Follow-ups that never happen, they add up fast. And that's why today's episode is brought to you by Quo, spelled Quo, the business communication system built so you never miss a call.

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Uh so you can see this maybe on a bigger scene uh you know the international scene you know like religious views spiritual views uh so so so this is can be very charged I don't know when you hear this how you how it um land in you but for me I I see like my you know the Buddha talks about something like that our views and opinions should lead to uh calm and clarity clarity clarity And when I hear this, it makes me laugh because my views and opinions usually lead me to be agitated and all worked up in all kinds of ways, you know.

So I can see that I have a lot of work to do around the views and opinions uh around that especially and that's a particular aspect of this that the Buddha highlights and I'm so so thankful for this. He says it's clinging to any view, right view, helpful view, unhelpful view, uh confused views is going to be painful. But clinging to wrong view is even more painful. And there's uh in right in there there's a few suggestions of things uh that we could look at uh tendencies that we have to you know wrongly understanding what is happening the nature of reality and I can name a few if you want please.

please. please. Well the most classic uh wrong view that we cling to so we tend to project on things uh permanence. So the wrong view of permanency, solidity, um stability. So we tend to very easily our mind will make something permanent. You know, I feel like [ __ ] I'm going to feel like [ __ ] for the rest of my life. You know, I succeeded. It should continue. Or I'm great. I'm great forever. Or, you know, this this is good. This is a nice place. It's going to be nice forever.

This is a good situation. It's going to be forever. This is bad. is going to stay like this. So our mind have the have the tendency to uh make things permanent solid in this way and uh and we don't question this. We just view this as reality. So that's a type of clinging. We we we buy into we adear to this view. At some point we have a little bit of a shock we could say you know like because something falls apart a relationship um a situation uh something start to not be so u we give it less value suddenly changes it changes in some ways and so cling to permanence uh the view of permanence the Buddha seems to say that's going to be make things really painful when you know suddenly the aging starts to show in the face or health goals, you know, and we often we are in shock, you know, we uh we we can't believe that this thing suddenly disappear or is try starting to crack uh crumble, you know, and we're very uh shocked, but we shouldn't be because it's in the nature of things to be.

So there's a lot of practice here to recognize that to let go of that of clinging adearing to that view. Okay. So that's one kind of uh wrong view. Uh uh the view of impermanence. Are there are there others that we should be on the lookout for? lookout for? lookout for? Another one is the view of satisfying. That's very tricky. Uh the view of like when we project on something when we uh perceive in something satisfaction like complete satisfaction where there's no nuance you know we we don't think it can be slightly defective or unstable or changing and we and we we do this you know we'll be just on the internet and we'll see a little something on the somewhere and we'll oh my god I I need to get that you know that that's that's what Amazon lives on you know the fact that we project satisfaction and what's the actual experience you know you actually get the thing the next day in the mail you know you open the box and you're like oh okay oh well well that might be useful you know but it's not what I what I you know what I projected like I I what I I thought it was and so we can be awake to this we can be not so duped not so fooled by that and and learn by paying attention we can learn that things are not exactly as as we project what we project on them.

And uh it made me laugh because I was uh listening to somebody saying, you know, when I return an an article that I bought online, you know, and they say like sometimes, I don't know if they still do, but you know, why are you returning this? They're like, "Well, you know, I was drunk last night, feeling lonely at home, you know, and I bought a bunch of things, you know, trying to solve my problem, you know, and yeah, now I'm not so drunk anymore." And and you know, and it I can see it's not that satisfying, you know, and so and it seems like a bad news, you know.

I'm saying things are unsatisfactory, you know, and it would be good to uh see this for for what it is, you know. It seems like bad news, but actually when you're free from that kind of uh allure that you tend to put on things, you know, and and uh that, you know, a lot of corporate uh stuff is trying to, you know, to have us buy into satis the idea of satisfaction with things. You know, when we're freed from this, it feels so good. There's so much joy that we have access to.

There's so much freedom. So when I say things are can't satisfy us completely, relationship can't come on let's be honest you know and uh you know in any situation and career can't and you know and you see you see people that you know some some of the richest people in the world you know they they they look miserable you know they they they have they got everything they they want but they still you know they're not happy and so we can be aware of this and not cling to the idea of satisfaction and in this way gain into joy and peace and inner freedom.

freedom. freedom. It's uh it's a lot of good news in there. there. there. We're talking about uh the second way of clinging which is clinging to views and we we we talked a little bit about the kind of wrong views that can be particularly painful uh to cling to. But if if we think about uh uh clinging to view uh writ large as a way in which we suffer, what is the antidote? What practically where is the good news? Yeah. With every one of these ways of clinging, I would think that I would like to suggest that becoming aware of how we're holding pleasure, how we're holding displeasure, how we're meeting or holding a view can be uh can be really helpful.

So to know that you know I might have views about what's happening in the world you know about uh you know different conflicts that are happening in the in the world or things that I care a a lot about for my society injustice and this and uh and I can get all worked up if I cling to these things in an obsessive way. I'm going to lose uh sleep. I'm going to lose appetite. I'm going to lose hope. I'm going to lose vision. uh I I'm going to get depleted in all kinds of ways and there's might be another way to hold these views with care with uh clarity.

I find inspiration in the Buddha. The Buddha had a lot of views. He spent 45 years sharing his views about stuff, you know, but he was not clinging to them. He was not getting getting upset about them. And so the ways the way to work with this, I think, is to actually notice, oh, Pascal, my love, you're working all you're getting all worked up about this. about this. about this. You're you're really very very engaged with this. Is there a way to maybe come back to the body to feel the body breathing here to maybe notice something else, you know, notice the what's happening around?

there's space around there things around and do a little bit of a titration you know like instead of like a fixation you know to relax a bit and to me one of the ways I I'll think about this is to think is this the way I hold this is this leading me to freedom is this leading me to ease is this leading me to engage or is this making me uh you know all u worked up so that I'll be depleted uh later you know so to actually take note of the mind state the way I'm relating to this you know and bringing curiosity I like that question is there another way to hold this and I might be doing this in the middle of a conversation you know I'm with somebody and I want to speak over them to convince them of something because I have a view about this and if I notice this Pascal this Pascal this Pascal is there another way you know and then I can relax my body find my breath again, maybe hear the other person and usually I find myself more intelligent because I have access to more information of what's going on.

I'm a little bit more um relaxed maybe so that my mind is more flexible. I can actually uh engage with the person at the right level instead of trying to kind of force or you know uh control the other's point of view. You know, I can actually listen. Maybe I'll hear some nuances that I haven't considered, you know. Maybe I'll get interested in the person and there's it seems like suddenly it's possible there's possibilities. It's another field, you know. Uh so I'll leave in a way conflict, you know.

And so becoming aware of myself, my mind state, my body, and then I can uh you know reorient. It's possible. The minds have that capacity to re we're not stuck with our mind states. You know there's a possibility when we become conscious to say like hey there might be another way to go about this. Let's try let's try maybe I'll ask a question to the I'll get interested in their point of view you know and I'll see what thread we can bring here or make or something like this.

this. this. It's such good news that we can change the channel in our minds. No question about it. That said, um we live, as everybody knows, in the middle of a in what a friend of mine has called a pandemic of certainty. A lot of people uh in this polarized environment find it threatening to say that we shouldn't be so attached to our views because the stakes seem so high. Um you know, all of the fears about AI, possible authoritarian slide, on and on. Um, and I'm referring specifically there to the United States.

What say you to folks who who have that concern of like, yo, don't tell me to ease up on my views, like my views are really important and righteous here. Yeah. Everyone will uh, you know, do what they want with this, you know. So, I'm totally okay with somebody not agreeing with any of this and uh, deciding to keep clinging to their views. That's a absolute possibility. Uh I think that I I come back to this same phrase here. I'm sorry, but it's like this there might be another way.

So I I you know I see some people who are activists you know are fighting for things they value and I can see that some of them are able to do this with vision led by love led by clarity you know and they can engage a lot of energy a lot of time uh but it's not in hatred it's not in closing down it's uh you know I was hearing somebody recently were saying I'm going to keep speaking up because I know we can do better.

And I thought this is so beautiful. It's not like you uh other people you're so wrong and I hate you and you're you know it's like I there's vision there's beauty in this. I don't know if you'll somebody would make the difference between the two. I do to me like I I I want to to go about things like this with vision with clarity with love with uh creativity. I want to, you know, I don't want to be eaten up inside by something. I I want to Yeah.

And so I think that not clinging to a view doesn't mean that we're not going to engage a lot of energy into something that we care about, but it's it's a different way to go about it. And again, the Buddha taught for 45 years. It's not like he said, "Oh, I'm not going to cling to anything and just stay under a tree." He engaged in conversation and with people who didn't agree with him and but he seemed to be saying all the time, I will never quarrel.

I will never hate somebody. I will never cling to a view. I will have exchanges. I will spend a lot of time uh explaining my views. But uh uh yeah, so it's for everyone to to see uh uh what's possible here. I have found um personally that being open to other points of view um as it pertains to our current um domestic political scene here in the United States or on global issues like AI um being open to other points of view is and this is a little counterintuitive and again maybe idiosyncratic.

It's uh calming in some ways uh because I don't I don't feel so locked in on one uh one point of certainty. certainty. certainty. Okay. Um let's talk about the third way of clinging in this list of of four. And this one uh I I'm not even sure exactly what's being pointed to here, but it is clinging to rights and rituals. What does that mean? Yeah. At the time of the Buddha, I I wasn't there. So as I heard or understand or has been it's been described to me and uh is that people would uh have rituals that they would perform thinking that the ritual themselves would liberate them.

So standing on one leg and never putting the second leg on the floor, you know, would be uh a good practice to liberate the mind, you know, or that uh you know, it could be all kinds of things, but really about uh uh ways to do things and not questioning what's happening in the mind, not questioning nature of reality for example, but just uh behaving in a certain way. Um yeah so this is where it seems to start from uh and then it goes even further than this my the way I reflect on this the way it touches me in a kind of contemporary way when we think about this to me is uh I think of norms cling to ways of doing cling to norms cling to ways of doing things and you know these four aspects they they can be um close to one another they can connect to one another you know like we take four kinds, but they they kind of there's a play be uh between them, you know, because why do we cling sometimes to ways of doing things and norms because they're agreeable, they're comfortable for us there, you know, so it touches on the first uh list for the first um aspect.

Maybe a lot of racism is will be based around this, you know, like the the way the norms that are established by a lot of the white people, you know, uh of ways to do things. And we see this in um for me, I spend a lot of time in uh you know, in the spiritual realm, in Buddhist realms, in retreat centers, you know, and there's a there's a in in the in the West, you know, there's a kind of a white way to do things.

and uh and we're not willing to question this. We cling to this, you know. And I remember I was at a conference and there was a a woman who said, "What's wrong you with you? You you don't dance your dharma, you know." And I was like, "Oh yeah, look at this." You know, like look at how like in that millure, you know, this is what the dharma what the meditation or spiritual practice looks like. And it's not danced. you don't dance it, you know, or you don't sing it with gusto, you know, and so and I think it can be so enriching for us to question these.

And you know, other ways that I see this is about how to do things like uh at work, for example. Oh, no, that's not how to do this. The step one is this. The step two is, you know, like it's it's as if there's no space for creativ creativity or how to raise a kid. You have kids. you you'll know what I talk what I'm talking about you know like people will tell you like this is this is the way to raise a kid this is the way to you know to uh I do that sometimes I you know I have this in my house with my partner you know it's like we start to make a meal and I'm like no the onions go first you know that's why I want to bring this list here today because I think it's very applicable I'm like oh why do I suffer in my relationship because I cling to rights and rituals I cling to the way we're going to do this meal and I don't seem to care about the relationship for a few moments here.

I care about the way the order of the, you know, the vegetables going in the pan, you know, and I'm miserable and I make the other miserable and there's some there's another way. there's another way, you know, and becoming aware of this, I'm like, oh, maybe I can let go a bit of my, you know, clinging to ways of doing things here and maybe I'll find some joy and connection. You know, there's so many ways this is applicable in my mind. You know, that's a very rich field.

field. field. Do you think I should start telling my wife that she should stand on one leg if she puts the onions first before the meat? I don't think any of that would go over well in my house. Um, yeah. No, I think I I I like this a lot and um especially as it pertains to an organization. I say this as a small business owner, like the the most dangerous phrase is, "Yeah, but we've always done it this way." And that kind of calcification can be like the the enemy of uh of growth.

I was talking to a friend of mine the other day who's much younger than me. She was thinking a lot about how to keep her brain sharp and so she was getting back into meditation. She was taking piano lessons again and she was learning a new language, which brings me to one of our sponsors today, Rosetta Stone. Many of us have tried learning another language before, maybe Spanish in high school or a few phrases for a trip. But when it's time to actually use those skills, we realize that just knowing a few words is not the same as a real conversation.

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So, with your permission, I'm going to move on to the fourth uh way of clinging, which is um it's going to sound a little technical uh but it's to selfdocctrine or just clinging to the to the self. Um please hold forth. I love that uh fourth uh fourth aspects of experience, fourth way of uh clinging. I love to study this. Uh I find it very very juicy. I find it um very kind of demanding, profound, counterintuitive and so rich in uh possibility of freedom and joy and love and compassion.

And so it's just the Buddha saying, "Look, I'm going to add a fourth chapter here. I'm going to give it its own chapter because it's very rich." The Buddha agrees with us, Dad. And he's saying, you know, there's a particular way we cling. There's a particular way we fixate. There's a particular way we get uh we we take up something and it's uh this very usual habitual very common way uh that is identification when we take something to be me or mine. As soon as we make something me in an absolute way, this is me.

The Buddha says this this happens a lot and uh a lot of our suffering, trouble and um you know being away from uh the experience of freedom lies there in that little movement of mind. And in all these ways it's interesting to notice that this is a movement of mind we're talking about. Clinging is something that happens in the mind and it seems like not clinging brings freedom. And so it what I hear in that is that the freedom lies the absence of freedom or the freedom lies into some mental activity.

mental activity. mental activity. That is amazing to think of like it it's something that happens inside of me. It's some it's not something outside. If it's something outside, I'm in deep trouble because that it's the outside world that will, you know, define if I'll be free or not. And in these teachings it says no it's an internal event and there's something to do about it. And in that particular aspect here it's that equating something to be so something is happening and I make it mine. I make it me.

I make it in me. I I view it as inside of me or I'm inside it. And in any of these views, if we made them too solid, not relative, relatively mine, relatively mine, relatively mine, um if we made them abs, make them absolute, we're going to suffer. So for example, the body, let's just take this the body. So the body, uh I make if I make mine me, it's me. right away there's going to be I think fear of death you know because if this is my body what's going to happen to it at the time of death and in spiritual practice or meditative practice or kind of in the inquiry we're doing here we're actually questioning this and I feel that we're in a way we're just bringing back a little sanity here it's not it's not that far out it's not esoteric it's just a simple recognition that this body is made of uh physical elements you know it's made of the stars you know it's made of uh you know if we put it in an archic way I would say it's it's made of water f fire earth uh and uh air you know and so it it's mine yes it's mine but it's not absolutely mine or me you know it's relatively mine yes I want to decide who touches this body it's mine you know in this way but of course it came to be it was offered by nature made by nature and will be taken by back by nature and in this way of reflecting I'm making peace with the world you know oh yeah I'm I'm not mistaken you know yeah of course it came to be of course it's subject to disease you know there will be disease let's not you know kind of be in denial here it will age you know the different senses will you know be uh lose their sharpness you know in some ways it doesn't have to be a problem it but it's not mine this face is not exactly mine you know it will change you know it is actually day by day you know it's a there's something natural about this body it it will naturally change and so releasing some of the holding here some of the equating or or appropriating you know Um, I have a little cabin in the woods where I go often.

It's by a lake and it's a little piece of land just a few hundred feet this way and that way, you know, by the lake. It's my cabin. It's my land. And it's not, you know, you know, a tree can fall on my little cabin. Uh, you know, it can burn. uh at some point something might happen that I'm you know I'll have to sell it or you know things can happen uh and so it's not absolutely mine it's relatively mine. relatively mine. relatively mine. I think what you're pointing to here is uh crucial for people who struggle with this brainbreaking Buddhist notion that the self is an illusion.

Uh a lot of people as I often say like come to Buddhism for stress release and then just wash up on the rocky shores of nonself as it's often called. And I think what's cru for me at least what's crucial crucial crucial the unluck uh that allows me to understand uh this very counterintuitive notion that the self is an illusion you know because we live in this world where we build everything around ourselves you know like my body my Instagram page my career etc etc the the crucial unlock is understanding that it's a paradox two things are true at the same time um uh your house by that lake is yours legally.

Um, but on a deeper level, it's all just a manifestation of nature. And if you took a high-powered microscope to uh the house, you would see that it's not as solid as it seems. It's actually mostly subatomic particles uh spinning through empty air. Um, and and that is, I think, what the Buddha is talking about. How am I doing? Yes. So true. So right, exactly. the paradox, the kind of two level. You could think conventional reality and ultimate reality like it's not ultimately mind. So we're just bringing a little nuance in, you know, we're like, "Hey honeypie, be careful because if you totally buy into it totally, you're going to suffer.

So it's good to bring a little wisdom here. It's not totally yours, you know, and uh and this with the body and physical things and also with the rest. So I teach meditation. I see this all the time. This gradual letting go. I It's It's not even It's to me it's like a regular thing that I see all the time. And you know what happens and and see if you recognize this, but we start meditating. We go to a first class meditation class or something like this.

And it seems like everything is referring back to me. It's my breath, my body, my posture, my mind is agitated. And why is my mind like this? and everything we we take everything to be mine and it doesn't take so much time a few months of practice and people report this all the time they they probably don't even notice so much you know but I noticed because the way they report it they they they'll say like um you know uh oh I don't make a story so much out of it that the fact that my mind doesn't stay on on the object like the breath for example I used to make it a really personal thing you know but now I don't it's natural that it does that Pascal you I won't be able to stay on the breath for an hour and a half, you know, it's not possible, you know.

So, do you see it's a little bit less personal? It it doesn't refer back. It becomes a wider view. It's another vista. I love this. It's so it's not like, oh, my mind, my thoughts. It's like, oh, there's a lot of thoughts in here. Oh there's a lot of emotional life happening in this system you know and uh you know and I yeah at the beginning I think my breath and then later I think oh the breath is a little uh you know congested or contracted you know or the j the breath is uh the breathing is happening easily today you know it's not so much referring to me and in an experiential way also people will be sitting you know and at the beginning you might feel my hands my hands are resting on my lap you know And at some point very naturally you're like ah it's just a field of tingling you know.

So it's just a slight different view. It's not suddenly the hand disappeared you know but it's experienced slightly differently. Not as the concept my hand the idea my hand but a little field of heat or a little field of tingling you know. And it's so beautiful when this there's some release around emotion because my fear and my agitation and my aversion and my hatred and my impatience and oh Pascal there's there's a lot of impatience there's a lot of you know there's a lot of uh anger running through the system right now that that opening that not being so fused and identified and is so it it really has a taste of freedom And it's not like it's not happening.

So it's not the extreme of denial. It's not the extreme of uh totally identified. It's the middle path of recognizing what is there. Oh, you know, there's a body, it's important to take care of the body, to love the body. There's a mind, it's important to take care of it. But um and the same with thoughts, you know, at the beginning, I'm thinking about this and at some point it's like it has a lot of things to say in there. It keeps commenting all the time you know while I'm meditating you know it's not so personal anymore and and and you know joy appears and more ease appears you know and less guilt less shame less anxiety the selfing you know this activity of owner owning uh appropriating leads to all these things guilt arrogance shame greed hatred this is you know it leads to obsession that's the direct path to obsession.

And I'm so happy these teachings are there and these invitation to go question this because yeah, we're in a world now of like self self-promotion, self-made. I'm self-made and and and you know everything I'm I can say like this is all me saying this. Yeah, it's all me Pascal saying this, but thank you Joseph. Thank you Dan's podcast. thing thank you you know you know like I'm totally related to all the people who have taught me like I I'm not separate in this way um yeah so interconnection less separation in that view you know that um that we can uh you know discover for can uh we can uh you know discover for ourselves ourselves ourselves when when uh Marissa uh who's producing this episode reached out to you to ask you to come on the show um and uh to talk to you about being teacher of the month on uh the 10% app.

Um you um she asked you like what's up in your practice like what's what are you thinking about the most in your practice where you focused and you you mentioned this non-self concept as being the thing that that was really like on your mind. How does it play out in your life where the rubber hits the road practice? So meditation for me is the field of research. It's a very particular field in a way it's protected environment you know where I can actually go more minute and see what's happening in the mind and the body and see how this clinging happens how this definition of self happens.

So that's in um that's in the field of practice and I'll give you an example just to highlight this before we go to the rubber that hits the road. I heard your question but uh the other day I I think it's a good example of this maybe we'll see. I was uh I was teaching in a retreat, you know, and it was the lunchtime break and I'm I'm lay lying on the bed and I'm resting my hands on the so I'm laying down on the bed and my hands are resting like this and I'm just you know waiting to go back to teach more or sit with people and I'm sitting there and I'm I was thinking like oh where is this you know this identification thing happening like where's the eye where how is the eye happening?

if it's happening. And then I was like, well, I'm lying down. No, actually the body is lying down. There's the body that's lying down, but these are my hands. These are my hands, you know. And then I just paid attention a little more and I was like, "No, there's there's these sensations there, you know. They're not mine exactly, you know." And then I was like, "Yeah, but this is me. This is my face, you know." And then I stayed there just just attentive to that. I was like, "Oh, no.

There's particular sensations that I felt you know like lips sensations and sensations and I tend to make this mine you know to ass but these are just sensations of heat or you know and and voila and then I was like but I'm aware of this and then I of this I'm aware of this and then I just relaxed and stayed there like and then there's like no this is known there's a knowing happening there's a knowing of hands knowing of breath this doesn't have to be me but it still is happening you happening you happening you So this is the field of you know exploration you know questioning going underneath the you know the preconceived ideas like I think this is my hands let's see what's that oh it's just tingling that is happening you know and so this is the field of research and then I go back to um I go back to my life and then I I don't know you know somebody's talking and I can't interrupt them them them because of because of because of whatever the situation is, you know, I have to let them talk and I don't agree, you know, and it's good that I can't stop them because I notice what's happening, you know, and I'm like, you know, I go from they're annoying with their view, you know, this this this is wrong.

This is not the way it, you know, I want to correct this. This is not true, you know. I want to to like they're wrong to oh my god, I'm very agitated here. I'm very agitated. And if I stay with this, oh, there's a lot of agitation here. there's a lot of agitation and then something relaxes uh in that and then uh there can be care can arise that's what I see you know either joy like it's not that important you know it's like I don't have to be so identified they're saying this to me and you know there's there's just this happening and there's relaxation some some space can open up maybe joy or compassion like oh this it's a difficult situation you know And what I see is the mind can become more creative.

It can it can be more creative and appropriate instead of barging in, you know, or like it'll be more it'll remember it'll remember the values. It will remember respect. It will remember uh that things are that I I don't have control, you know, that I cannot control the other's view, the other's words, you know, that but I can engage. That's a possibility. you know that there might be the possibility of contribution or participating but not control you know and so by just releasing some of the self-identification and just recognizing what is happening so it's not like it changes everything there's still you know the person is still saying what they're saying but it's not it's I'm not like totally fused with this this is happening to me about me referring to me you know it's a different vista again it's a different view it's that events are not about me for me uh referring to me.

It's a whole different view. It's ah there's a conflict happening or there's something happening that is delicate you know somebody's saying something that is not agreed upon you know so it's a delicate situation so that's the best I can do with this just uh just now I want to click on um the practical elements of what you were saying there specifically specifically specifically uh to build on uh the investigation you described of lying in bed and you know just kind of looking for the self and and in the many ways it might instantiate in your mind and then as soon as you look you see well I can't call that self that I think would make a great meditation uh maybe you'll maybe we'll get you to guide one uh uh in that spirit for us uh on the app but another practical way to explore this idea of nonself and to like get it into your molecules in a in a in a deeper way.

Uh and this is this is really non-esoteric is just to get better at generosity that you can you know if the Buddha talks about uh letting go well generosity is that that that yeah that's so right and you know what I think immediately about because I've been uh I I've been watching the Arteimus the orient the astronauts you know in April that were flying in the sky around the moon and stuff and and uh you know to me it was kind of a whole teaching on not self in this way you know because you know they kept talking about with how is it called the overview effect that's an amazing thing you know and they were all kind of reporting on this in different ways the four astronauts and uh like seeing um I think it was uh Christina one of the astronauts uh called Christina she was saying like like the kind of the sense of belonging you know like like oh this is like a raft floating in space, you know, this is a and we're the crew.

We belong to each other, you know, like we're so that's the cutting of the separation like we we belong to each other. And when they landed at some point when I think the commander or the reed, I think his name is, was saying like now we belong to each other. I I can't remember what was the exact sentence, but we're linked together now forever. You know, there was this understanding that and what happens is if you watch, you know, as they were going around, there was a lot of joy.

There was a lot of love being expressed and a lot of um taking care of everyone. You know, suddenly it was not me going around the moon and I did it. It was we're doing it for us. You know, we're we need each other. And there was less self and more generosity. There was more love. There was more joy. there was more gratitude. It was releasing all this the knowing that we belong to each other that we we have to we we cannot be there just for ourselves here you know there's a common objective Christa was saying uh of surviving you know and we're a little capsule and this other guy also this other um great astronaut Victor Clover I think Clover was saying we're a capsule but you're also a capsule on earth you know you belong to each other so generosity can lead to less selfing and less selfing will lead to more generosity.

They kind of play together and gratitude and uh joy and love and so they're they're kind of expressions of each other. If there's less self, you know, there'll be more generosity. And if there's more generosity, we'll uh it's a really good practical way to let go of, you know, self uh referencing, you know, what about me? Will I have enough? Will I opening up, you know, to the other to the other's point of view, need uh etc. Yeah, I think it's a it's a beautiful way to uh to explore that generosity.

interesting linguistically the the uh in English we talk about selflessness as as generosity and in Buddhist in Buddhism we talk about selflessness uh as a reference to the fundamental illusion of the self but in the end uh they're both pointing to the same thing. I I do want to say in closing that it's just always such a pleasure to talk to you. You do such a great job of explaining the dharma. Thank you for uh yeah thanks for making time. time. time. Thank you so much.

It's really a pleasure to be uh having this exchange with you and uh knowing that people will consider some of this stuff and might be it might be helpful. And if people want to get more from you, uh where can they find you? Yeah, so there's a site website yeah called pascaloclair.org called pascaloclair.org called pascaloclair.org and I think that's a good hub to find out opportunities for practice, you know, and things like this. And uh yeah, I think I would uh invite people to to to go visit there.

Okay, we'll put a link to that in the show notes if anybody wants to uh dig in a little deeper. But in the meantime, Pascal, you're the best. Thank you. You too, Dan. Thank you so much. much. much. I want to thank everybody who works so hard to make this show. Uh 10% Happier is produced by Tara Anderson and Eleanor Vicil. Our recording and engineering is handled by the great folks over at Pod People. Lauren Smith is our managing producer. from Marissa Schneiderman is our senior producer.

DJ Cashmir is our executive producer and Nick Thorburn of the band Islands wrote our theme. Also, one quick ask before I let you go. Uh, head on over, please, to danh harris.com to sign up for my weekly newsletter. Every Monday, I drop a little bit of goodness into your inbox. Mondays, especially Monday mornings, can be super stressful. So that is when I drop in one useful nugget that you can operationalize in your life immediately either from ancient wisdom like Buddhism or from modern science. It's short, it's easy to read, it's worth it, it's free.

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