Your Drive to Improve Is Blocking Your Joy | Kate Bowler

Hey gang, welcome to the 10% Happier Hey gang, welcome to the 10% Happier podcast. I'm your host Dan Harris. Today podcast. I'm your host Dan Harris. Today podcast. I'm your host Dan Harris. Today we're talking about how when you live an we're talking about how when you live an we're talking about how when you live an overly regimented, optimized, metrics overly regimented, optimized, metrics overly regimented, optimized, metrics driven life, it can be what my guest driven life, it can be what my guest driven life, it can be what my guest calls a joy blocker. That's one of the calls a joy blocker. That's one of the calls a joy blocker. That's one of the things we're going to talk about. We're things we're going to talk about. We're things we're going to talk about. We're also going to talk about the fact that also going to talk about the fact that also going to talk about the fact that we all have, whether we're aware of it we all have, whether we're aware of it we all have, whether we're aware of it or not, a kind of deep hunger or ache. or not, a kind of deep hunger or ache. or not, a kind of deep hunger or ache. And that deep hunger or a can actually And that deep hunger or a can actually And that deep hunger or a can actually be a kind of compass and tell us what we be a kind of compass and tell us what we be a kind of compass and tell us what we want to live for, what we want to fill want to live for, what we want to fill want to live for, what we want to fill that hole with. My guest is Kate Bowler, that hole with. My guest is Kate Bowler, that hole with. My guest is Kate Bowler, PhD, who is a four-time New York Times PhD, who is a four-time New York Times PhD, who is a four-time New York Times bestselling author. Uh her latest book bestselling author. Uh her latest book bestselling author. Uh her latest book is called Joyful Anyway, and is that is called Joyful Anyway, and is that is called Joyful Anyway, and is that that's the book we're going to focus on that's the book we're going to focus on that's the book we're going to focus on in this interview. She's also a a in this interview. She's also a a in this interview. She's also a a podcaster. She's got a podcast called podcaster. She's got a podcast called podcaster. She's got a podcast called Everything Happens. This interview is a Everything Happens. This interview is a Everything Happens. This interview is a ton of fun. There's a lot of laughing ton of fun. There's a lot of laughing ton of fun. There's a lot of laughing and joking and also a lot of and joking and also a lot of and joking and also a lot of profoundity. I think you're going to profoundity. I think you're going to profoundity. I think you're going to enjoy it. Kate Bowler after the break. A enjoy it. Kate Bowler after the break. A enjoy it. Kate Bowler after the break. A few things before we hear from our few things before we hear from our few things before we hear from our sponsors. I highly recommend that you sponsors. I highly recommend that you sponsors. I highly recommend that you head on over to danh harris.com to check head on over to danh harris.com to check head on over to danh harris.com to check out my newish meditation app 10% with out my newish meditation app 10% with out my newish meditation app 10% with Dan Harris. Right now we're in the Dan Harris. Right now we're in the Dan Harris. Right now we're in the middle of this really cool series where middle of this really cool series where middle of this really cool series where every Sunday the legendary Dharma every Sunday the legendary Dharma every Sunday the legendary Dharma teacher Sharon Salsberg is leading a teacher Sharon Salsberg is leading a teacher Sharon Salsberg is leading a live session where she does some live session where she does some live session where she does some teachings on the Buddha's eight-fold teachings on the Buddha's eight-fold teachings on the Buddha's eight-fold path. You can think of the eight-fold path. You can think of the eight-fold path. You can think of the eight-fold path as the Buddha's foundational list. path as the Buddha's foundational list. path as the Buddha's foundational list. It's his cookbook for leading a happy It's his cookbook for leading a happy It's his cookbook for leading a happy life. Sharon does some teaching on one life. Sharon does some teaching on one life. Sharon does some teaching on one aspect of the path. She guides a aspect of the path. She guides a aspect of the path. She guides a meditation and then she takes your meditation and then she takes your meditation and then she takes your questions. We're in the middle of it questions. We're in the middle of it questions. We're in the middle of it right now, but it's not too late to right now, but it's not too late to right now, but it's not too late to join. You can sign up at danharris.com join. You can sign up at danharris.com join. You can sign up at danharris.com and you can watch the first few sessions and you can watch the first few sessions and you can watch the first few sessions on video replay and then join the rest on video replay and then join the rest on video replay and then join the rest of them live. It's really cool. One of of them live. It's really cool. One of of them live. It's really cool. One of the keys, I believe, and this is an the keys, I believe, and this is an the keys, I believe, and this is an evidence-based assertion, one of the evidence-based assertion, one of the evidence-based assertion, one of the keys to starting a habit or maintaining keys to starting a habit or maintaining keys to starting a habit or maintaining a habit like meditation is doing it with a habit like meditation is doing it with a habit like meditation is doing it with other people. And that's what we're other people. And that's what we're other people. And that's what we're doing over on 10% with Dan Harris. Life doing over on 10% with Dan Harris. Life doing over on 10% with Dan Harris. Life is better in the carpool lane. Join the is better in the carpool lane. Join the is better in the carpool lane. Join the party. We'll be right back after this. party. We'll be right back after this. party. We'll be right back after this. This episode is sponsored by Better This episode is sponsored by Better This episode is sponsored by Better Help. We talk about mental health more Help. We talk about mental health more Help. We talk about mental health more openly these days, but asking for help openly these days, but asking for help openly these days, but asking for help can still feel hard, and Better Help's can still feel hard, and Better Help's can still feel hard, and Better Help's latest research confirms this. latest research confirms this. latest research confirms this. BetterHelp's 2026 State of Stigma report BetterHelp's 2026 State of Stigma report BetterHelp's 2026 State of Stigma report surveyed 2,000 Americans and revealed surveyed 2,000 Americans and revealed surveyed 2,000 Americans and revealed that 85% of Americans believe getting that 85% of Americans believe getting that 85% of Americans believe getting support is wise. Yet, 74% say society support is wise. Yet, 74% say society support is wise. Yet, 74% say society discourages people from doing so. I find discourages people from doing so. I find discourages people from doing so. I find these numbers personally quite these numbers personally quite these numbers personally quite disturbing. [music] disturbing. [music] disturbing. [music] Nobody should feel stigmatized for Nobody should feel stigmatized for Nobody should feel stigmatized for getting help. You don't feel funny about getting help. You don't feel funny about getting help. You don't feel funny about getting your heart checked. So, getting getting your heart checked. So, getting getting your heart checked. So, getting your brain and mind checked should be your brain and mind checked should be your brain and mind checked should be completely fine. I see a therapist, have completely fine. I see a therapist, have completely fine. I see a therapist, have seen a therapist since I was a little seen a therapist since I was a little seen a therapist since I was a little boy. It is an enormously helpful thing boy. It is an enormously helpful thing boy. It is an enormously helpful thing to do. And it's also, not for nothing, to do. And it's also, not for nothing, to do. And it's also, not for nothing, not self-indulgent because taking care not self-indulgent because taking care not self-indulgent because taking care of yourself helps you be better of yourself helps you be better of yourself helps you be better resourced and better prepared to take resourced and better prepared to take resourced and better prepared to take care of other people. With over 30,000 care of other people. With over 30,000 care of other people. With over 30,000 therapists, BetterHelp is the world's therapists, BetterHelp is the world's therapists, BetterHelp is the world's largest online therapy platform, having largest online therapy platform, having largest online therapy platform, having served over 6 million people globally. served over 6 million people globally. served over 6 million people globally. Don't let stigma stand in the way of Don't let stigma stand in the way of Don't let stigma stand in the way of support. Start therapy with BetterHelp. support. Start therapy with BetterHelp. support. Start therapy with BetterHelp. Sign up and get 10% off at Sign up and get 10% off at Sign up and get 10% off at betterhelp.com/happier. betterhelp.com/happier. betterhelp.com/happier. That's betterhp.com/happier. [music] [music] >> Kate Bowler, welcome to the show. >> Kate Bowler, welcome to the show. >> Kate Bowler, welcome to the show. >> I'm so glad to be here. [laughter] >> I'm so glad to be here. [laughter] >> I'm so glad to be here. [laughter] >> Glad to have you here. If you're >> Glad to have you here. If you're >> Glad to have you here. If you're comfortable, I' I'd love to start with a comfortable, I' I'd love to start with a comfortable, I' I'd love to start with a little bit of your personal backstory. You don't come to joy through the front You don't come to joy through the front door. door. door. [laughter] [laughter] [laughter] >> That's a great way of putting it. No, I >> That's a great way of putting it. No, I >> That's a great way of putting it. No, I had to climb through a back window and had to climb through a back window and had to climb through a back window and then find a fire escape. then find a fire escape. then find a fire escape. >> We're laughing about it, but it's but >> We're laughing about it, but it's but >> We're laughing about it, but it's but the story is tough. Again, if you're the story is tough. Again, if you're the story is tough. Again, if you're comfortable with it, I I' I'd love to comfortable with it, I I' I'd love to comfortable with it, I I' I'd love to hear it. hear it. hear it. >> Sure. I had like a pretty >> Sure. I had like a pretty >> Sure. I had like a pretty straightforward hope for my life. I just straightforward hope for my life. I just straightforward hope for my life. I just wanted to be an academic. I just like wanted to be an academic. I just like wanted to be an academic. I just like really wanted to be a professor in a really wanted to be a professor in a really wanted to be a professor in a tower with many gargoyles. And my tower with many gargoyles. And my tower with many gargoyles. And my parents were university professors. And parents were university professors. And parents were university professors. And so when I got this job at Duke so when I got this job at Duke so when I got this job at Duke University, like right out of grad University, like right out of grad University, like right out of grad school, it was it was like beyond school, it was it was like beyond school, it was it was like beyond anything I could imagine. And it was anything I could imagine. And it was anything I could imagine. And it was just one of those seasons of life where just one of those seasons of life where just one of those seasons of life where it feels like it's three steps forward, it feels like it's three steps forward, it feels like it's three steps forward, five steps back, eight steps forward. five steps back, eight steps forward. five steps back, eight steps forward. like you're just you're trying very hard like you're just you're trying very hard like you're just you're trying very hard to do the math and some things come to do the math and some things come to do the math and some things come together and some things come apart. So together and some things come apart. So together and some things come apart. So I really wanted to have a baby and yeah I really wanted to have a baby and yeah I really wanted to have a baby and yeah I was struggling through years of I was struggling through years of I was struggling through years of infertility and I really wanted to do a infertility and I really wanted to do a infertility and I really wanted to do a good job at this like amazing good job at this like amazing good job at this like amazing opportunity but I found I had really opportunity but I found I had really opportunity but I found I had really terrible chronic pain that meant that I terrible chronic pain that meant that I terrible chronic pain that meant that I lost use of my arms for a couple years lost use of my arms for a couple years lost use of my arms for a couple years which was not like peak season for voice which was not like peak season for voice which was not like peak season for voice dictation at that time. So dictation at that time. So dictation at that time. So >> it was just like everything was >> it was just like everything was >> it was just like everything was more than a grind, more than a slog. It more than a grind, more than a slog. It more than a grind, more than a slog. It was like always pressing against the was like always pressing against the was like always pressing against the limits of despair. And then I just had limits of despair. And then I just had limits of despair. And then I just had this one season where all of a sudden this one season where all of a sudden this one season where all of a sudden everything came together. I had this everything came together. I had this everything came together. I had this like perfect little smooshy baby that like perfect little smooshy baby that like perfect little smooshy baby that smelled like applesauce and cookies. And smelled like applesauce and cookies. And smelled like applesauce and cookies. And I had married my high school sweetheart I had married my high school sweetheart I had married my high school sweetheart and like things I I published my first and like things I I published my first and like things I I published my first book. It's called Blessed. I was so book. It's called Blessed. I was so book. It's called Blessed. I was so excited. And it just like a whole season excited. And it just like a whole season excited. And it just like a whole season in the sun where everything was really in the sun where everything was really in the sun where everything was really beautiful and my life felt like it was beautiful and my life felt like it was beautiful and my life felt like it was adding up to something adding up to something adding up to something meaningful to me. And then I started meaningful to me. And then I started meaningful to me. And then I started getting weird stomach pain and I went to getting weird stomach pain and I went to getting weird stomach pain and I went to the doctor for 6 months and was sent the doctor for 6 months and was sent the doctor for 6 months and was sent home with like Pepto-Bismol. And then home with like Pepto-Bismol. And then home with like Pepto-Bismol. And then one day I was like, "No, I'm serious. one day I was like, "No, I'm serious. one day I was like, "No, I'm serious. Like the pain is truly unbearable. I'm Like the pain is truly unbearable. I'm Like the pain is truly unbearable. I'm not leaving until you uh until you get not leaving until you uh until you get not leaving until you uh until you get me a a different scan." And then I got a me a a different scan." And then I got a me a a different scan." And then I got a call in my office the next day that I call in my office the next day that I call in my office the next day that I had stage four colon cancer and that I had stage four colon cancer and that I had stage four colon cancer and that I probably wouldn't like live through that probably wouldn't like live through that probably wouldn't like live through that year or the next. And that was like the year or the next. And that was like the year or the next. And that was like the very it was like that really marked the very it was like that really marked the very it was like that really marked the end of a life that I really loved and end of a life that I really loved and end of a life that I really loved and that I thought I had worked for. that I thought I had worked for. that I thought I had worked for. >> Well, you had worked for it >> Well, you had worked for it >> Well, you had worked for it and yet life and yet life and yet life knows how to throw a right hook. knows how to throw a right hook. knows how to throw a right hook. [laughter] In this case, several of [laughter] In this case, several of [laughter] In this case, several of them. And yet you're here, which I'm them. And yet you're here, which I'm them. And yet you're here, which I'm happy about. happy about. happy about. >> I'm actually a hologram and this is a >> I'm actually a hologram and this is a >> I'm actually a hologram and this is a very realistic AI experience. [laughter] very realistic AI experience. [laughter] very realistic AI experience. [laughter] >> Surprise. >> Surprise. >> Surprise. >> The tech is good. >> The tech is good. >> The tech is good. >> It's amazing. Wow. [laughter] >> It's amazing. Wow. [laughter] >> It's amazing. Wow. [laughter] >> So when was the diagnosis? And I I don't >> So when was the diagnosis? And I I don't >> So when was the diagnosis? And I I don't know much about the stages of cancer know much about the stages of cancer know much about the stages of cancer notwithstanding the fact that my dad was notwithstanding the fact that my dad was notwithstanding the fact that my dad was an oncologist. Um but I think an oncologist. Um but I think an oncologist. Um but I think >> I think four is not [laughter] Yeah, you >> I think four is not [laughter] Yeah, you >> I think four is not [laughter] Yeah, you can't graduate to five. Five is just not can't graduate to five. Five is just not can't graduate to five. Five is just not is not aliveness. Yeah. Four is like is not aliveness. Yeah. Four is like is not aliveness. Yeah. Four is like it's spread everywhere and is likely it's spread everywhere and is likely it's spread everywhere and is likely just it has spread beyond the original just it has spread beyond the original just it has spread beyond the original organ. And stage four colon cancer was organ. And stage four colon cancer was organ. And stage four colon cancer was at the time not a great prognosis. I at the time not a great prognosis. I at the time not a great prognosis. I spent really 2 years very intensely spent really 2 years very intensely spent really 2 years very intensely doing chemotherapy and imunotherapy. So doing chemotherapy and imunotherapy. So doing chemotherapy and imunotherapy. So they kept giving me sort of 3 months and they kept giving me sort of 3 months and they kept giving me sort of 3 months and then I'd get another scan and I'd find then I'd get another scan and I'd find then I'd get another scan and I'd find out if I'd get another 3 months to live. out if I'd get another 3 months to live. out if I'd get another 3 months to live. And it just kind of went like that vine And it just kind of went like that vine And it just kind of went like that vine to vine for several years. And then to vine for several years. And then to vine for several years. And then eventually they realized, wow, this eventually they realized, wow, this eventually they realized, wow, this imunotherapy is really working. And it imunotherapy is really working. And it imunotherapy is really working. And it was it's just very funny that like when was it's just very funny that like when was it's just very funny that like when you survive something that terrible, you survive something that terrible, you survive something that terrible, it's not like anybody comes to your door it's not like anybody comes to your door it's not like anybody comes to your door with like confetti and it's like with like confetti and it's like with like confetti and it's like surprise, you're going to live. It's surprise, you're going to live. It's surprise, you're going to live. It's just like a very incremental just like a very incremental just like a very incremental sense that expectations are slowly being sense that expectations are slowly being sense that expectations are slowly being changed around you. And by the time I changed around you. And by the time I changed around you. And by the time I got to five years, I was like, "Wait a got to five years, I was like, "Wait a got to five years, I was like, "Wait a minute. I think I'm really going to minute. I think I'm really going to minute. I think I'm really going to live. So, live. So, live. So, >> it's been nine almost 10 years since >> it's been nine almost 10 years since >> it's been nine almost 10 years since about so about five since I have not had about so about five since I have not had about so about five since I have not had to be in like very very active to be in like very very active to be in like very very active treatment. Now, I just have to get sort treatment. Now, I just have to get sort treatment. Now, I just have to get sort of every 6 months I have to go out to of every 6 months I have to go out to of every 6 months I have to go out to the hospital and have some stuff scraped the hospital and have some stuff scraped the hospital and have some stuff scraped out and then they look concerned and out and then they look concerned and out and then they look concerned and then they're like, "You'll be fine." then they're like, "You'll be fine." then they're like, "You'll be fine." It has not ever gone back to easy, but I It has not ever gone back to easy, but I It has not ever gone back to easy, but I have lived so much longer than I ever have lived so much longer than I ever have lived so much longer than I ever thought I would. So, it's given me a thought I would. So, it's given me a thought I would. So, it's given me a really long time to feel both deeply really long time to feel both deeply really long time to feel both deeply grateful and also right back to being a grateful and also right back to being a grateful and also right back to being a human being with regular human being human being with regular human being human being with regular human being problems and the same like boredom, problems and the same like boredom, problems and the same like boredom, irritation, and like grouchiness at my f irritation, and like grouchiness at my f irritation, and like grouchiness at my f fellow faculty members like constantly. fellow faculty members like constantly. fellow faculty members like constantly. That's on the one hand not surprising That's on the one hand not surprising That's on the one hand not surprising but on the other hand a little but on the other hand a little but on the other hand a little surprising and awesome that you're surprising and awesome that you're surprising and awesome that you're admitting it that you can have this like admitting it that you can have this like admitting it that you can have this like profound brush with mortality not like a profound brush with mortality not like a profound brush with mortality not like a car almost hit you in the street like 5 car almost hit you in the street like 5 car almost hit you in the street like 5 years of I'm swinging as you said before years of I'm swinging as you said before years of I'm swinging as you said before vine divine I don't you know this is my vine divine I don't you know this is my vine divine I don't you know this is my last 3mon tunch it's existential for a last 3mon tunch it's existential for a last 3mon tunch it's existential for a protracted period of time which in protracted period of time which in protracted period of time which in itself is got to be a massive trauma and itself is got to be a massive trauma and itself is got to be a massive trauma and then when things settle back down to then when things settle back down to then when things settle back down to something approaching normaly you're something approaching normaly you're something approaching normaly you're right back at like being bored and right back at like being bored and right back at like being bored and impatient. impatient. impatient. >> Should I be skinnier? You know, like >> Should I be skinnier? You know, like >> Should I be skinnier? You know, like you're just you're like, should I be you're just you're like, should I be you're just you're like, should I be should I be skinnier? Am I reading should I be skinnier? Am I reading should I be skinnier? Am I reading enough? What's my summer challenge? You enough? What's my summer challenge? You enough? What's my summer challenge? You know, just like [laughter] all the know, just like [laughter] all the know, just like [laughter] all the regular crap of like, you know, do I regular crap of like, you know, do I regular crap of like, you know, do I have enough supplements in my they're have enough supplements in my they're have enough supplements in my they're now $30 water. So, it's it's pretty now $30 water. So, it's it's pretty now $30 water. So, it's it's pretty wild. I mean, they always like to say wild. I mean, they always like to say wild. I mean, they always like to say like it's the dying who teach you how to like it's the dying who teach you how to like it's the dying who teach you how to live. But but I'll tell you like I I live. But but I'll tell you like I I live. But but I'll tell you like I I just think that there's an ongoingness just think that there's an ongoingness just think that there's an ongoingness to life that will constantly require to life that will constantly require to life that will constantly require that you come back to the same question, that you come back to the same question, that you come back to the same question, which is what carries you through both which is what carries you through both which is what carries you through both the very difficult times and then the the very difficult times and then the the very difficult times and then the times in which you're just looking into times in which you're just looking into times in which you're just looking into middle distance and saying, "Is this it? middle distance and saying, "Is this it? middle distance and saying, "Is this it? Is this it? Is this it?" Is this it? Is this it?" Is this it? Is this it?" >> Okay. Okay. Well, that so that brings us >> Okay. Okay. Well, that so that brings us >> Okay. Okay. Well, that so that brings us right back to the to the subject duour right back to the to the subject duour right back to the to the subject duour of joy because so you've now had this of joy because so you've now had this of joy because so you've now had this experience of having brushes with joy experience of having brushes with joy experience of having brushes with joy which I want to hear more about in you which I want to hear more about in you which I want to hear more about in you know a [ __ ] show and in regular life know a [ __ ] show and in regular life know a [ __ ] show and in regular life which turns out is also a [ __ ] show. which turns out is also a [ __ ] show. which turns out is also a [ __ ] show. [laughter] [laughter] [laughter] >> Yes. Yes. You know me completely. That's >> Yes. Yes. You know me completely. That's >> Yes. Yes. You know me completely. That's exactly right. Yeah. It it definitely exactly right. Yeah. It it definitely exactly right. Yeah. It it definitely opened up a question because you know my opened up a question because you know my opened up a question because you know my my research interest um that I've really my research interest um that I've really my research interest um that I've really been working on my whole career is about been working on my whole career is about been working on my whole career is about American stories of health, wealth, and American stories of health, wealth, and American stories of health, wealth, and happiness. And so when I got stuck when happiness. And so when I got stuck when happiness. And so when I got stuck when I was like continued to live and got I was like continued to live and got I was like continued to live and got stuck back in a regular sort of like I stuck back in a regular sort of like I stuck back in a regular sort of like I don't want to say malaise but like that don't want to say malaise but like that don't want to say malaise but like that itchy regular hungry feeling you get by itchy regular hungry feeling you get by itchy regular hungry feeling you get by being a person. It did make me wonder being a person. It did make me wonder being a person. It did make me wonder like, man, is there like another quality like, man, is there like another quality like, man, is there like another quality of experience that we can have that of experience that we can have that of experience that we can have that isn't just trying to get back to sort of isn't just trying to get back to sort of isn't just trying to get back to sort of like contentment or even regular like contentment or even regular like contentment or even regular happiness. And I just noticed that I happiness. And I just noticed that I happiness. And I just noticed that I have had these really surreal have had these really surreal have had these really surreal experiences in the very worst moments of experiences in the very worst moments of experiences in the very worst moments of my cancer experience. Like, and I just my cancer experience. Like, and I just my cancer experience. Like, and I just mean like surreal surreal moments of mean like surreal surreal moments of mean like surreal surreal moments of what I look back and realize like, "Oh what I look back and realize like, "Oh what I look back and realize like, "Oh my gosh, that was joy." my gosh, that was joy." my gosh, that was joy." >> And they were just so dumb. Like, I say >> And they were just so dumb. Like, I say >> And they were just so dumb. Like, I say dumb cuz they were so unusual that I dumb cuz they were so unusual that I dumb cuz they were so unusual that I felt embarrassed like explaining it to felt embarrassed like explaining it to felt embarrassed like explaining it to people. Like, I was 48 hours from my people. Like, I was 48 hours from my people. Like, I was 48 hours from my horrifying life-changing diagnosis. I horrifying life-changing diagnosis. I horrifying life-changing diagnosis. I was heartbroken. [clears throat] I was was heartbroken. [clears throat] I was was heartbroken. [clears throat] I was so angry. I was so angry. I was so angry. I was couldn't plan for a Christmas or a couldn't plan for a Christmas or a couldn't plan for a Christmas or a summer. And yet I had this for a little summer. And yet I had this for a little summer. And yet I had this for a little stretch this really bizarre surreal stretch this really bizarre surreal stretch this really bizarre surreal feeling that felt like this like lift. feeling that felt like this like lift. feeling that felt like this like lift. Like I felt temporarily Like I felt temporarily Like I felt temporarily whole. I felt love. I felt love like whole. I felt love. I felt love like whole. I felt love. I felt love like everywhere. I felt love from other everywhere. I felt love from other everywhere. I felt love from other people. I'm very Jesusy. Felt love from people. I'm very Jesusy. Felt love from people. I'm very Jesusy. Felt love from God. I felt like I couldn't even be mad God. I felt like I couldn't even be mad God. I felt like I couldn't even be mad at people I wished I was mad at because at people I wished I was mad at because at people I wished I was mad at because I just like thought they were so I just like thought they were so I just like thought they were so beautiful. It was like falling in love beautiful. It was like falling in love beautiful. It was like falling in love with the world all over again. And with the world all over again. And with the world all over again. And looking back, I was like, well, that looking back, I was like, well, that looking back, I was like, well, that wasn't happiness and that wasn't wasn't happiness and that wasn't wasn't happiness and that wasn't contentment. So like, what is it about contentment. So like, what is it about contentment. So like, what is it about these weird I had stumbled like into a these weird I had stumbled like into a these weird I had stumbled like into a pocket of joy. So what is it about weird pocket of joy. So what is it about weird pocket of joy. So what is it about weird joy that's so unusual that can happen in joy that's so unusual that can happen in joy that's so unusual that can happen in the very worst of times and then the very worst of times and then the very worst of times and then sometimes just like on a very normal sometimes just like on a very normal sometimes just like on a very normal Tuesday? Tuesday? Tuesday? >> I want to pursue that question, but >> I want to pursue that question, but >> I want to pursue that question, but let's just step back for a second and let's just step back for a second and let's just step back for a second and define some terms. What is the define some terms. What is the define some terms. What is the difference between joy in your mind? difference between joy in your mind? difference between joy in your mind? because I find that in my experience of because I find that in my experience of because I find that in my experience of hosting the show for more than 10 years hosting the show for more than 10 years hosting the show for more than 10 years like that people have very different like that people have very different like that people have very different definitions for the terms we're going to definitions for the terms we're going to definitions for the terms we're going to discuss today. So, but in your mind the discuss today. So, but in your mind the discuss today. So, but in your mind the difference between joy and happiness. difference between joy and happiness. difference between joy and happiness. >> Yeah. Well, I can't wait to like I hope >> Yeah. Well, I can't wait to like I hope >> Yeah. Well, I can't wait to like I hope secretly argue about our definition of secretly argue about our definition of secretly argue about our definition of happiness because I'm I'm curious about happiness because I'm I'm curious about happiness because I'm I'm curious about what you'll say. what you'll say. what you'll say. >> I just want to say in advance that I I >> I just want to say in advance that I I >> I just want to say in advance that I I will win. You know, it's my show. will win. You know, it's my show. will win. You know, it's my show. [laughter] [laughter] [laughter] >> I like I like your determination. >> I like I like your determination. >> I like I like your determination. I like your [laughter] I like your [laughter] I like your [laughter] >> It will be my source of joy. >> It will be my source of joy. >> It will be my source of joy. >> You're like, "And even if I don't win, I >> You're like, "And even if I don't win, I >> You're like, "And even if I don't win, I will edit around it." will edit around it." will edit around it." >> Yes. Yes. [laughter] >> Yes. Yes. [laughter] >> Yes. Yes. [laughter] >> Exactly. >> Exactly. >> Exactly. >> Postprouction dunking on you. It's going >> Postprouction dunking on you. It's going >> Postprouction dunking on you. It's going to be awesome. [laughter] to be awesome. [laughter] to be awesome. [laughter] >> I look forward to feeling demeaned and >> I look forward to feeling demeaned and >> I look forward to feeling demeaned and confused when I listen to it in the confused when I listen to it in the confused when I listen to it in the [laughter] future. [laughter] future. [laughter] future. Well, here's my best goound of like the Well, here's my best goound of like the Well, here's my best goound of like the distinction between joy and happiness is distinction between joy and happiness is distinction between joy and happiness is that happiness has a like a a distinct that happiness has a like a a distinct that happiness has a like a a distinct experience of ease. Joy is a very big experience of ease. Joy is a very big experience of ease. Joy is a very big bright feeling. Happiness has a relaxed bright feeling. Happiness has a relaxed bright feeling. Happiness has a relaxed quality to its um appearance. It will quality to its um appearance. It will quality to its um appearance. It will feel very contextual, meaning that it feel very contextual, meaning that it feel very contextual, meaning that it will be built out of many small will be built out of many small will be built out of many small loadbearing things like how much sleep loadbearing things like how much sleep loadbearing things like how much sleep you've had and the nice cup of coffee in you've had and the nice cup of coffee in you've had and the nice cup of coffee in your hand and you the ability to call a your hand and you the ability to call a your hand and you the ability to call a nice friend later on. It'll be like a nice friend later on. It'll be like a nice friend later on. It'll be like a like a Jenga tower of of many small like a Jenga tower of of many small like a Jenga tower of of many small incremental things, some built and some incremental things, some built and some incremental things, some built and some just as the word suggests hap as in just as the word suggests hap as in just as the word suggests hap as in happen stance. So it will very often happen stance. So it will very often happen stance. So it will very often feel like the things that are happening feel like the things that are happening feel like the things that are happening to you. If happiness has this ease to it to you. If happiness has this ease to it to you. If happiness has this ease to it um joy is not relaxing at all. Joy is um joy is not relaxing at all. Joy is um joy is not relaxing at all. Joy is like a big bright enlivening feeling. It like a big bright enlivening feeling. It like a big bright enlivening feeling. It will like happiness engage your reward will like happiness engage your reward will like happiness engage your reward system. But it also very strangely system. But it also very strangely system. But it also very strangely engages your stress system which helps engages your stress system which helps engages your stress system which helps explain why it can appear at like very explain why it can appear at like very explain why it can appear at like very counterintuitive times is you could have counterintuitive times is you could have counterintuitive times is you could have it you know in a big crisis or like at a it you know in a big crisis or like at a it you know in a big crisis or like at a funeral and the pastor has mispronounced funeral and the pastor has mispronounced funeral and the pastor has mispronounced your dad's name for the fourth time and your dad's name for the fourth time and your dad's name for the fourth time and the first it was sad and the second you the first it was sad and the second you the first it was sad and the second you feel this weird twinge and by the fourth feel this weird twinge and by the fourth feel this weird twinge and by the fourth you feel this like weird hysterical like you feel this like weird hysterical like you feel this like weird hysterical like oh my gosh she would have loved this. oh my gosh she would have loved this. oh my gosh she would have loved this. This is ridiculous. Why am I laughing? I This is ridiculous. Why am I laughing? I This is ridiculous. Why am I laughing? I could hate myself. Like Joyy's sudden could hate myself. Like Joyy's sudden could hate myself. Like Joyy's sudden appearance is in part because we've got appearance is in part because we've got appearance is in part because we've got this feeling in joy like everything is this feeling in joy like everything is this feeling in joy like everything is okay and nothing is okay. And for some okay and nothing is okay. And for some okay and nothing is okay. And for some for one moment cuz joy is just is for one moment cuz joy is just is for one moment cuz joy is just is extremely temporary. It will feel like extremely temporary. It will feel like extremely temporary. It will feel like temporary wholeness. temporary wholeness. temporary wholeness. >> Let's stipulate that everything is >> Let's stipulate that everything is >> Let's stipulate that everything is temporary. But happiness has a little temporary. But happiness has a little temporary. But happiness has a little bit more of an edifice to it. Whereas bit more of an edifice to it. Whereas bit more of an edifice to it. Whereas joy joy joy comes along at comes along at comes along at surprising moments and h and is m big surprising moments and h and is m big surprising moments and h and is m big more it's much more of like a big burst more it's much more of like a big burst more it's much more of like a big burst of something rather than the lowslung of something rather than the lowslung of something rather than the lowslung ranch house of happiness. [laughter] ranch house of happiness. [laughter] ranch house of happiness. [laughter] >> Amazing. I think too what is kind of >> Amazing. I think too what is kind of >> Amazing. I think too what is kind of unusual about joy is it comes to us not unusual about joy is it comes to us not unusual about joy is it comes to us not just as like a lovely feeling a lovely just as like a lovely feeling a lovely just as like a lovely feeling a lovely temporary feeling but it's almost like temporary feeling but it's almost like temporary feeling but it's almost like it it it carries the weight of a story it it it carries the weight of a story it it it carries the weight of a story it will convince us for a moment that it it will convince us for a moment that it it will convince us for a moment that it is good that it is good for you to be is good that it is good for you to be is good that it is good for you to be alive alive alive >> because you can go from zero to 100 in a >> because you can go from zero to 100 in a >> because you can go from zero to 100 in a moment of joy it's has an an amazing moment of joy it's has an an amazing moment of joy it's has an an amazing ability ility to then quiet ability ility to then quiet ability ility to then quiet despair or stories that tell us that it despair or stories that tell us that it despair or stories that tell us that it will never be okay because suddenly it will never be okay because suddenly it will never be okay because suddenly it was it really was okay. And so when we was it really was okay. And so when we was it really was okay. And so when we want to look for experiences that kind want to look for experiences that kind want to look for experiences that kind of have this imprint of joy, we should of have this imprint of joy, we should of have this imprint of joy, we should look for moments like that that give us look for moments like that that give us look for moments like that that give us hope like maybe that lovely things like hope like maybe that lovely things like hope like maybe that lovely things like that will happen in the future. It will that will happen in the future. It will that will happen in the future. It will it will feel like delight because if it will feel like delight because if it will feel like delight because if it's not making you laugh or if it it's not making you laugh or if it it's not making you laugh or if it doesn't feel slightly fun like dude doesn't feel slightly fun like dude doesn't feel slightly fun like dude that's not joy that's just I don't know that's not joy that's just I don't know that's not joy that's just I don't know indigestion or [laughter] indigestion or [laughter] indigestion or [laughter] like hallucinogenics I don't know it like hallucinogenics I don't know it like hallucinogenics I don't know it will delight you and it looks a lot like will delight you and it looks a lot like will delight you and it looks a lot like gratitude cuz it will immediately just gratitude cuz it will immediately just gratitude cuz it will immediately just make you say thank you thank you so much make you say thank you thank you so much make you say thank you thank you so much >> you earlier called yourself Jesusy does >> you earlier called yourself Jesusy does >> you earlier called yourself Jesusy does joy in your conception have an element joy in your conception have an element joy in your conception have an element of grace of grace of grace Oh my gosh, I love that you just said Oh my gosh, I love that you just said Oh my gosh, I love that you just said grace. No one else would have said that. grace. No one else would have said that. grace. No one else would have said that. Yes. I mean, like the feeling like it's Yes. I mean, like the feeling like it's Yes. I mean, like the feeling like it's this like almost like the world is what this like almost like the world is what this like almost like the world is what it is and then when you experience a it is and then when you experience a it is and then when you experience a moment of joy, it feels like a mercy moment of joy, it feels like a mercy moment of joy, it feels like a mercy like oh like wow, I couldn't have like oh like wow, I couldn't have like oh like wow, I couldn't have orchestra. Thank you for it being orchestra. Thank you for it being orchestra. Thank you for it being outside of myself and visiting me. I outside of myself and visiting me. I outside of myself and visiting me. I think that's what makes it like a balm. think that's what makes it like a balm. think that's what makes it like a balm. like can heal parts of you you didn't like can heal parts of you you didn't like can heal parts of you you didn't expect because you can tell when you're expect because you can tell when you're expect because you can tell when you're experiencing a moment of joy that you're experiencing a moment of joy that you're experiencing a moment of joy that you're not manufacturing it. And that's I think not manufacturing it. And that's I think not manufacturing it. And that's I think that's why that's why that's why it can feel holy in that way cuz it it can feel holy in that way cuz it it can feel holy in that way cuz it feels like it comes from outside of you feels like it comes from outside of you feels like it comes from outside of you as a gift. as a gift. as a gift. >> Whereas happiness often takes work. >> Whereas happiness often takes work. >> Whereas happiness often takes work. >> Yeah. I think happiness takes a lot of >> Yeah. I think happiness takes a lot of >> Yeah. I think happiness takes a lot of work. Are you saying work. Are you saying work. Are you saying we shouldn't do the work of happiness or we shouldn't do the work of happiness or we shouldn't do the work of happiness or that we should do the work of happiness that we should do the work of happiness that we should do the work of happiness but also try to and I think this is the but also try to and I think this is the but also try to and I think this is the phrase you use put ourselves in the way phrase you use put ourselves in the way phrase you use put ourselves in the way of joy too. of joy too. of joy too. >> I think I'm here to confront you on your >> I think I'm here to confront you on your >> I think I'm here to confront you on your happiness show tell you that happiness happiness show tell you that happiness happiness show tell you that happiness is a waste of time. [laughter] Just is a waste of time. [laughter] Just is a waste of time. [laughter] Just joking. I think I think I mean I think joking. I think I think I mean I think joking. I think I think I mean I think happiness is a tremendous amount of work happiness is a tremendous amount of work happiness is a tremendous amount of work and it's worthy work of doing. I think and it's worthy work of doing. I think and it's worthy work of doing. I think to the extent that we can change the to the extent that we can change the to the extent that we can change the small parts of our life that that ought small parts of our life that that ought small parts of our life that that ought to be changed to build up a happier to be changed to build up a happier to be changed to build up a happier life, I am for it because we can't life, I am for it because we can't life, I am for it because we can't manufacture joy because joy is a manufacture joy because joy is a manufacture joy because joy is a surprise. The best we can do is not try surprise. The best we can do is not try surprise. The best we can do is not try to build up joy. But but try to either to build up joy. But but try to either to build up joy. But but try to either put ourselves in the way of joy or try put ourselves in the way of joy or try put ourselves in the way of joy or try to just cultivate qualities that expand to just cultivate qualities that expand to just cultivate qualities that expand our capacity to be someone that joy our capacity to be someone that joy our capacity to be someone that joy happens to. happens to. happens to. >> Yeah. What would that look like? I'm >> Yeah. What would that look like? I'm >> Yeah. What would that look like? I'm curious. curious. curious. >> It feels weird cuz I feel like we should >> It feels weird cuz I feel like we should >> It feels weird cuz I feel like we should be saying, "Well, the things that get in be saying, "Well, the things that get in be saying, "Well, the things that get in the way are of joy are sadness, but now the way are of joy are sadness, but now the way are of joy are sadness, but now we know that joy engages our stress we know that joy engages our stress we know that joy engages our stress system." So, we're like, "Oh, I I think system." So, we're like, "Oh, I I think system." So, we're like, "Oh, I I think you can be s I think you can be sad and you can be s I think you can be sad and you can be s I think you can be sad and still experience moments of joy at the still experience moments of joy at the still experience moments of joy at the same time it's happened to me and that same time it's happened to me and that same time it's happened to me and that was weird." So, it's not sadness. It's was weird." So, it's not sadness. It's was weird." So, it's not sadness. It's not even sort of prolonged periods of not even sort of prolonged periods of not even sort of prolonged periods of almost despair cuz a lot of people just almost despair cuz a lot of people just almost despair cuz a lot of people just go through very difficult seasons and go through very difficult seasons and go through very difficult seasons and are surprised by glimpses of joy. I are surprised by glimpses of joy. I are surprised by glimpses of joy. I think it's going to end up being a lot think it's going to end up being a lot think it's going to end up being a lot of the features of our very optimized of the features of our very optimized of the features of our very optimized AI world that will end up producing AI world that will end up producing AI world that will end up producing qualities in us that are joy blockers. qualities in us that are joy blockers. qualities in us that are joy blockers. Because if joy is a surprise, if you Because if joy is a surprise, if you Because if joy is a surprise, if you think about all the stuff that makes us think about all the stuff that makes us think about all the stuff that makes us like a very good citizen of this new like a very good citizen of this new like a very good citizen of this new robot world, like most of those robot world, like most of those robot world, like most of those qualities, like hyperefficiency, making elaborate routines that no one making elaborate routines that no one can possibly interrupt. I know that can possibly interrupt. I know that can possibly interrupt. I know that because I have an elaborate morning because I have an elaborate morning because I have an elaborate morning routine, an elaborate evening routine, routine, an elaborate evening routine, routine, an elaborate evening routine, and if you give me like seven secrets to and if you give me like seven secrets to and if you give me like seven secrets to billionaire whatever routines, I'm going billionaire whatever routines, I'm going billionaire whatever routines, I'm going to read it. Like, I love that stuff. But to read it. Like, I love that stuff. But to read it. Like, I love that stuff. But anything that makes us very planned, anything that makes us very planned, anything that makes us very planned, very efficient, very uninterruptible very efficient, very uninterruptible very efficient, very uninterruptible is quite likely to make us an is quite likely to make us an is quite likely to make us an increasingly joyless person. Yes, I've increasingly joyless person. Yes, I've increasingly joyless person. Yes, I've had big stretches in my life where I've had big stretches in my life where I've had big stretches in my life where I've been sort of like mirthless and been sort of like mirthless and been sort of like mirthless and militaristic in my own like approach to militaristic in my own like approach to militaristic in my own like approach to what I was calling happiness, but was what I was calling happiness, but was what I was calling happiness, but was actually just like optimization. actually just like optimization. actually just like optimization. >> Oh my gosh. Yes. I think that's so >> Oh my gosh. Yes. I think that's so >> Oh my gosh. Yes. I think that's so tempting and marketed so aggressively to tempting and marketed so aggressively to tempting and marketed so aggressively to us that it's almost impossible to tell us that it's almost impossible to tell us that it's almost impossible to tell the difference sometimes. What were some the difference sometimes. What were some the difference sometimes. What were some of your, if you don't mind me asking, of your, if you don't mind me asking, of your, if you don't mind me asking, what were some of your incredible what were some of your incredible what were some of your incredible optimizations? optimizations? optimizations? >> Well, what I'm about to say is just so >> Well, what I'm about to say is just so >> Well, what I'm about to say is just so [ __ ] stupid that but it here it is [ __ ] stupid that but it here it is [ __ ] stupid that but it here it is that I had a whole period of time where that I had a whole period of time where that I had a whole period of time where I I I believed that I should meditate 2 hours believed that I should meditate 2 hours believed that I should meditate 2 hours a day. Um, and mind you, this is gets a day. Um, and mind you, this is gets a day. Um, and mind you, this is gets even worse. Uh really really even worse. Uh really really even worse. Uh really really embarrassing bad. What I'm about to say embarrassing bad. What I'm about to say embarrassing bad. What I'm about to say I just want to signal is bad. But my we I just want to signal is bad. But my we I just want to signal is bad. But my we had just had a baby when I was doing had just had a baby when I was doing had just had a baby when I was doing this. [laughter] Right. So really bad this. [laughter] Right. So really bad this. [laughter] Right. So really bad really un kind. I wasn't doing it like really un kind. I wasn't doing it like really un kind. I wasn't doing it like while we were doing baby things while we were doing baby things while we were doing baby things together. Maybe I did a few times but together. Maybe I did a few times but together. Maybe I did a few times but that wasn't generally my move. My move that wasn't generally my move. My move that wasn't generally my move. My move was I was working all the time which was I was working all the time which was I was working all the time which also by the way was uncharacteristic and also by the way was uncharacteristic and also by the way was uncharacteristic and thoughtless. I had two full-time jobs. thoughtless. I had two full-time jobs. thoughtless. I had two full-time jobs. uh one at ABC News and the other doing uh one at ABC News and the other doing uh one at ABC News and the other doing whatever this thing is that I do and I whatever this thing is that I do and I whatever this thing is that I do and I had crazy hours and I would sort of chop had crazy hours and I would sort of chop had crazy hours and I would sort of chop up my meditation into these little up my meditation into these little up my meditation into these little chunks that I would do throughout the chunks that I would do throughout the chunks that I would do throughout the day. And I told myself that this was a day. And I told myself that this was a day. And I told myself that this was a way to do it in a way that wouldn't, you way to do it in a way that wouldn't, you way to do it in a way that wouldn't, you know, interrupt my parental duties, but know, interrupt my parental duties, but know, interrupt my parental duties, but I don't think that a that was fully true I don't think that a that was fully true I don't think that a that was fully true and b it was like what's why? What was and b it was like what's why? What was and b it was like what's why? What was the point? On top of that, I had a, you the point? On top of that, I had a, you the point? On top of that, I had a, you know, an exercise regime and would count know, an exercise regime and would count know, an exercise regime and would count calories and um I was a vegan and like, calories and um I was a vegan and like, calories and um I was a vegan and like, and I'm not saying being a vegan is a and I'm not saying being a vegan is a and I'm not saying being a vegan is a bad thing, um, but like it's a lot of bad thing, um, but like it's a lot of bad thing, um, but like it's a lot of work. And so I just was building I was work. And so I just was building I was work. And so I just was building I was building a real edifice of what I building a real edifice of what I building a real edifice of what I thought was happiness, but it was thought was happiness, but it was thought was happiness, but it was it was right back to your Jenga analogy. it was right back to your Jenga analogy. it was right back to your Jenga analogy. very easy to interrupt and ultimately very easy to interrupt and ultimately very easy to interrupt and ultimately did topple, did topple, did topple, >> especially when it's so close to >> especially when it's so close to >> especially when it's so close to things that have brought us like things that have brought us like things that have brought us like enormous work satisfaction. For example, enormous work satisfaction. For example, enormous work satisfaction. For example, like the ability to break down really like the ability to break down really like the ability to break down really complicated things into tiny steps and complicated things into tiny steps and complicated things into tiny steps and then to do them a million times and then then to do them a million times and then then to do them a million times and then congratulations, now you're great at congratulations, now you're great at congratulations, now you're great at your job. It's so hard not to apply that your job. It's so hard not to apply that your job. It's so hard not to apply that same direct mentality same direct mentality same direct mentality >> to what Charles Taylor called the >> to what Charles Taylor called the >> to what Charles Taylor called the buffeted self. who you really are. I buffeted self. who you really are. I buffeted self. who you really are. I mean, we would say it in very simple mean, we would say it in very simple mean, we would say it in very simple terms like is a is a problem to be terms like is a is a problem to be terms like is a is a problem to be solved, is a project to be managed and solved, is a project to be managed and solved, is a project to be managed and it's totally hermetically sealed and it's totally hermetically sealed and it's totally hermetically sealed and nothing gets in except the things that I nothing gets in except the things that I nothing gets in except the things that I have built. That kind of very intense have built. That kind of very intense have built. That kind of very intense metric driven, productivity driven, metric driven, productivity driven, metric driven, productivity driven, industrial self is, I think, the most industrial self is, I think, the most industrial self is, I think, the most common definition of what I think we all common definition of what I think we all common definition of what I think we all think of as selfmastery. So, and every think of as selfmastery. So, and every think of as selfmastery. So, and every time I think I'm not doing it, I'm time I think I'm not doing it, I'm time I think I'm not doing it, I'm usually back into doing it at the very usually back into doing it at the very usually back into doing it at the very moment. And again your point is that moment. And again your point is that moment. And again your point is that mode which it seems like both of us have mode which it seems like both of us have mode which it seems like both of us have a proclivity for towards I don't know a proclivity for towards I don't know a proclivity for towards I don't know what the right preposition is there that what the right preposition is there that what the right preposition is there that mode is a joy blocker mode is a joy blocker mode is a joy blocker >> I think it really is and that mode is >> I think it really is and that mode is >> I think it really is and that mode is that mode will look like selfmastery it that mode will look like selfmastery it that mode will look like selfmastery it will look like conquering all it will will look like conquering all it will will look like conquering all it will look great on Instagram oh my gosh we look great on Instagram oh my gosh we look great on Instagram oh my gosh we would look so would look so would look so >> [laughter] >> [laughter] >> [laughter] >> And it will slowly suck out of us >> And it will slowly suck out of us >> And it will slowly suck out of us because while you're doing it, you are because while you're doing it, you are because while you're doing it, you are telling yourself the story that it's not telling yourself the story that it's not telling yourself the story that it's not a day, it's 24 hours. It's not a a day, it's 24 hours. It's not a a day, it's 24 hours. It's not a sunrise. You know, you're back to your sunrise. You know, you're back to your sunrise. You know, you're back to your morning routine. Like you, everything morning routine. Like you, everything morning routine. Like you, everything then becomes this very homeworky project then becomes this very homeworky project then becomes this very homeworky project driven story about who we are and what driven story about who we are and what driven story about who we are and what we're for. And then the second that we're for. And then the second that we're for. And then the second that breaks down, you become unable to do breaks down, you become unable to do breaks down, you become unable to do your homework. like your homework. like your homework. like then you I mean this this was a a a then you I mean this this was a a a then you I mean this this was a a a horrifying feeling I had very early on horrifying feeling I had very early on horrifying feeling I had very early on in being sick is like well if I can't be in being sick is like well if I can't be in being sick is like well if I can't be all these things and do all these things all these things and do all these things all these things and do all these things like am I failing I look around and all like am I failing I look around and all like am I failing I look around and all I'm doing is is frankly wearing out the I'm doing is is frankly wearing out the I'm doing is is frankly wearing out the people I love cuz now I have all these people I love cuz now I have all these people I love cuz now I have all these needs I'm in an unbelievably expensive needs I'm in an unbelievably expensive needs I'm in an unbelievably expensive medical treatment so now everybody is medical treatment so now everybody is medical treatment so now everybody is having to pay into a medical system so having to pay into a medical system so having to pay into a medical system so now wait now I'm impoverishing people now wait now I'm impoverishing people now wait now I'm impoverishing people I'm making people sad am Am I now the I'm making people sad am Am I now the I'm making people sad am Am I now the bad thing? And the amount of shame that bad thing? And the amount of shame that bad thing? And the amount of shame that comes to people who can't be these comes to people who can't be these comes to people who can't be these self-conquering cyborg masters of the self-conquering cyborg masters of the self-conquering cyborg masters of the universe is that all those of us who universe is that all those of us who universe is that all those of us who take more than we can give, which will take more than we can give, which will take more than we can give, which will be all of us at some season of our life, be all of us at some season of our life, be all of us at some season of our life, will get the mistaken impression that we will get the mistaken impression that we will get the mistaken impression that we should have figured out the cure for should have figured out the cure for should have figured out the cure for being human and then we just didn't. being human and then we just didn't. being human and then we just didn't. >> So, it's a deep setup and it sounded >> So, it's a deep setup and it sounded >> So, it's a deep setup and it sounded like it really was in your case. like it really was in your case. like it really was in your case. >> Yeah. big setups for making the body >> Yeah. big setups for making the body >> Yeah. big setups for making the body blow of the diagnosis even worse. blow of the diagnosis even worse. blow of the diagnosis even worse. >> Yeah. After I got sick, I think my first >> Yeah. After I got sick, I think my first >> Yeah. After I got sick, I think my first temptation was like, I have to temptation was like, I have to temptation was like, I have to outperform this. I have to just get back outperform this. I have to just get back outperform this. I have to just get back to that person who can be a giver, not a to that person who can be a giver, not a to that person who can be a giver, not a taker, you know? I was just like taker, you know? I was just like taker, you know? I was just like ruthless with myself. I'm still very ruthless with myself. I'm still very ruthless with myself. I'm still very prone to having like no mercy for prone to having like no mercy for prone to having like no mercy for myself, infinite mercy for other people, myself, infinite mercy for other people, myself, infinite mercy for other people, cuz other people are allowed to be cuz other people are allowed to be cuz other people are allowed to be human. But I got a plan. If we're human. But I got a plan. If we're human. But I got a plan. If we're establishing that the optimized establishing that the optimized establishing that the optimized metricsdriven as you said industrialized metricsdriven as you said industrialized metricsdriven as you said industrialized self is a joy blocker. It sounds like self is a joy blocker. It sounds like self is a joy blocker. It sounds like its cousin or its comorbidity which is its cousin or its comorbidity which is its cousin or its comorbidity which is ruthless self-criticism is another joy ruthless self-criticism is another joy ruthless self-criticism is another joy blocker. blocker. blocker. >> Yeah, I think that's right. I just was >> Yeah, I think that's right. I just was >> Yeah, I think that's right. I just was thinking immediately about the way it's thinking immediately about the way it's thinking immediately about the way it's marketed specifically to women too that marketed specifically to women too that marketed specifically to women too that has a kind of perfectionism has a kind of perfectionism has a kind of perfectionism where we should be beautiful and now we where we should be beautiful and now we where we should be beautiful and now we have to age backwards. And I think this have to age backwards. And I think this have to age backwards. And I think this is especially where this like paradigm is especially where this like paradigm is especially where this like paradigm breaks down is if we think about breaks down is if we think about breaks down is if we think about happiness like this little Jenga tower happiness like this little Jenga tower happiness like this little Jenga tower where we're building up every small where we're building up every small where we're building up every small incremental thing to make a good life incremental thing to make a good life incremental thing to make a good life feel at ease all the time. I think a lot feel at ease all the time. I think a lot feel at ease all the time. I think a lot of women would add to that that they of women would add to that that they of women would add to that that they have to be a professional happiness have to be a professional happiness have to be a professional happiness manager for every person in their life, manager for every person in their life, manager for every person in their life, particularly their kids, and that if particularly their kids, and that if particularly their kids, and that if every single person around them isn't at every single person around them isn't at every single person around them isn't at ease, then they're also failing at being ease, then they're also failing at being ease, then they're also failing at being a woman. a woman. a woman. >> Yeah, that tracks >> Yeah, that tracks >> Yeah, that tracks based on my female friendships and based on my female friendships and based on my female friendships and guests on this show. guests on this show. guests on this show. Okay. So th if those are the joy Okay. So th if those are the joy Okay. So th if those are the joy blockers, blockers, blockers, what can one do to put on one's self in what can one do to put on one's self in what can one do to put on one's self in the way of joy even when things are, you the way of joy even when things are, you the way of joy even when things are, you know, pretty deeply sub-optimal? know, pretty deeply sub-optimal? know, pretty deeply sub-optimal? >> One thing you can do which is really >> One thing you can do which is really >> One thing you can do which is really also counterintuitive is um service. also counterintuitive is um service. also counterintuitive is um service. There's like a really strange alchemy There's like a really strange alchemy There's like a really strange alchemy between giving and getting joy. It between giving and getting joy. It between giving and getting joy. It doesn't feel like that's very good math. doesn't feel like that's very good math. doesn't feel like that's very good math. It should be that when you give you have It should be that when you give you have It should be that when you give you have less because that's subtraction and you less because that's subtraction and you less because that's subtraction and you put in all this effort and wow somebody put in all this effort and wow somebody put in all this effort and wow somebody else reaped the benefits. But there is else reaped the benefits. But there is else reaped the benefits. But there is like just wonderful studies about like like just wonderful studies about like like just wonderful studies about like just the incredible just the incredible just the incredible emotional emotional emotional lift and connectedness you get through lift and connectedness you get through lift and connectedness you get through community service by deep friendships by community service by deep friendships by community service by deep friendships by and in partly that's because joy is and in partly that's because joy is and in partly that's because joy is highly socially contagious. It's highly socially contagious. It's highly socially contagious. It's actually like harder to have joy alone. actually like harder to have joy alone. actually like harder to have joy alone. I've just known that when I've gone I've just known that when I've gone I've just known that when I've gone through really tough seasons, there's through really tough seasons, there's through really tough seasons, there's kind of an accidental narcissism to kind of an accidental narcissism to kind of an accidental narcissism to pain. You can just suddenly start to pain. You can just suddenly start to pain. You can just suddenly start to believe like of this this only happens believe like of this this only happens believe like of this this only happens to me. Of course, this happened to me. to me. Of course, this happened to me. to me. Of course, this happened to me. People won't understand how awful it is. People won't understand how awful it is. People won't understand how awful it is. I am alone in this. And the second you I am alone in this. And the second you I am alone in this. And the second you start kind of being back involved in start kind of being back involved in start kind of being back involved in serving in other people's lives, like serving in other people's lives, like serving in other people's lives, like it's a lot easier then to forget your it's a lot easier then to forget your it's a lot easier then to forget your own partly untrue story of how you're own partly untrue story of how you're own partly untrue story of how you're the only person who suffered in the the only person who suffered in the the only person who suffered in the world and you just start to feel like world and you just start to feel like world and you just start to feel like caught up in other people's hopes and caught up in other people's hopes and caught up in other people's hopes and dreams and love. And so yeah, joy and dreams and love. And so yeah, joy and dreams and love. And so yeah, joy and service is a really is like a kind of a service is a really is like a kind of a service is a really is like a kind of a super highway to opening yourself up to super highway to opening yourself up to super highway to opening yourself up to more joy in your life. I think the other more joy in your life. I think the other more joy in your life. I think the other major one is trying to rest on the major one is trying to rest on the major one is trying to rest on the delight piece for a while where some delight piece for a while where some delight piece for a while where some sometimes we we think that we're kind of sometimes we we think that we're kind of sometimes we we think that we're kind of inundated with like pleasures. you look inundated with like pleasures. you look inundated with like pleasures. you look around and you can watch a movie right around and you can watch a movie right around and you can watch a movie right away or you know like almost everything away or you know like almost everything away or you know like almost everything is instantaneous. But the problem is it is instantaneous. But the problem is it is instantaneous. But the problem is it kind of degrades our experience of what kind of degrades our experience of what kind of degrades our experience of what actually lights us up. And if you ask actually lights us up. And if you ask actually lights us up. And if you ask people like what delights you like makes people like what delights you like makes people like what delights you like makes you in a somewhat embarrassed way be you in a somewhat embarrassed way be you in a somewhat embarrassed way be like mo this is it. Like I think it's like mo this is it. Like I think it's like mo this is it. Like I think it's it's often very hard for people to it's often very hard for people to it's often very hard for people to answer. And if it's hard for people to answer. And if it's hard for people to answer. And if it's hard for people to answer, man, it's pretty hard for other answer, man, it's pretty hard for other answer, man, it's pretty hard for other people then to get into your life and to people then to get into your life and to people then to get into your life and to be able to offer you anything when you be able to offer you anything when you be able to offer you anything when you know you need a lift and they want to know you need a lift and they want to know you need a lift and they want to help. I think it's worth pausing to ask help. I think it's worth pausing to ask help. I think it's worth pausing to ask like what truly delights you and only like what truly delights you and only like what truly delights you and only you because joy is not standard issue. you because joy is not standard issue. you because joy is not standard issue. It was made for you. It's not like one It was made for you. It's not like one It was made for you. It's not like one of my horrible metanite Christmases of my horrible metanite Christmases of my horrible metanite Christmases where like everybody gets the same bag where like everybody gets the same bag where like everybody gets the same bag of tube socks and like you get tube of tube socks and like you get tube of tube socks and like you get tube socks and you get tube socks. Like socks and you get tube socks. Like socks and you get tube socks. Like [laughter] it will be weirdly [laughter] it will be weirdly [laughter] it will be weirdly individualistic. individualistic. individualistic. >> I'm a small business owner and like many >> I'm a small business owner and like many >> I'm a small business owner and like many small business owners, I got into this small business owners, I got into this small business owners, I got into this because I am passionate about something. because I am passionate about something. because I am passionate about something. In my case, I'm passionate about In my case, I'm passionate about In my case, I'm passionate about upleveling people's mental health upleveling people's mental health upleveling people's mental health through meditation and other modalities. through meditation and other modalities. through meditation and other modalities. I did not get into this work, however, I did not get into this work, however, I did not get into this work, however, to manage payroll. That was not the to manage payroll. That was not the to manage payroll. That was not the thing that I was excited about when I thing that I was excited about when I thing that I was excited about when I started this business. And I think started this business. And I think started this business. And I think that's very common for small business that's very common for small business that's very common for small business owners. We start with a spark of insight owners. We start with a spark of insight owners. We start with a spark of insight and passion and excitement, but then we and passion and excitement, but then we and passion and excitement, but then we quickly get bogged down in details like quickly get bogged down in details like quickly get bogged down in details like payroll, which is why you need a good payroll, which is why you need a good payroll, which is why you need a good partner, and which is why I'm proud that partner, and which is why I'm proud that partner, and which is why I'm proud that one of our sponsors today is Gusto. one of our sponsors today is Gusto. one of our sponsors today is Gusto. Gusto is an online payroll and benefits Gusto is an online payroll and benefits Gusto is an online payroll and benefits software built for small businesses. software built for small businesses. software built for small businesses. 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Try Gusto today at gusto.com/happier gusto.com/happier gusto.com/happier and get three months free when you run and get three months free when you run and get three months free when you run your first payroll. That's 3 months of your first payroll. That's 3 months of your first payroll. That's 3 months of free payroll at gusto.com/happier. free payroll at gusto.com/happier. free payroll at gusto.com/happier. One more time, gusto.com/happier. One more time, gusto.com/happier. One more time, gusto.com/happier. One [snorts] of the things that's coming One [snorts] of the things that's coming One [snorts] of the things that's coming to mind, and this is kind of related to to mind, and this is kind of related to to mind, and this is kind of related to some of the things you talked about some of the things you talked about some of the things you talked about earlier as joy blockers, is like nondistraction. nondistraction. I would imagine I would imagine I would imagine constant scrolling indoors with no natural light or nature indoors with no natural light or nature at all does not put you in the way of at all does not put you in the way of at all does not put you in the way of joy. I mean, I get delighted every once joy. I mean, I get delighted every once joy. I mean, I get delighted every once in a while when I'm scrolling on TikTok. in a while when I'm scrolling on TikTok. in a while when I'm scrolling on TikTok. No question about it, but it's not the No question about it, but it's not the No question about it, but it's not the same thing. It's a kind of synthetic same thing. It's a kind of synthetic same thing. It's a kind of synthetic version. version. version. >> And I'm sure you and I have a similar >> And I'm sure you and I have a similar >> And I'm sure you and I have a similar position on this. There's a certain position on this. There's a certain position on this. There's a certain quality of attention that we kind of quality of attention that we kind of quality of attention that we kind of have to get into a better place of have to get into a better place of have to get into a better place of cultivating in order to even be aware of cultivating in order to even be aware of cultivating in order to even be aware of joy if it was coming in the room at all. joy if it was coming in the room at all. joy if it was coming in the room at all. >> That's all true for sure. >> That's all true for sure. >> That's all true for sure. to me to me like the the protottypical to me to me like the the protottypical to me to me like the the protottypical example of example of example of joy as an act of grace from the universe joy as an act of grace from the universe joy as an act of grace from the universe or God or whatever you want to call it or God or whatever you want to call it or God or whatever you want to call it for me is for me is for me is sitting on the steps of a building in sitting on the steps of a building in sitting on the steps of a building in Harvard Square when I was a junior in Harvard Square when I was a junior in Harvard Square when I was a junior in high school summer between junior and high school summer between junior and high school summer between junior and senior year and there were no phones at senior year and there were no phones at senior year and there were no phones at that time because I am that time because I am that time because I am not young and so this was in the late not young and so this was in the late not young and so this was in the late 80s and I was just sitting there I I 80s and I was just sitting there I I 80s and I was just sitting there I I might have been talking to somebody. I might have been talking to somebody. I might have been talking to somebody. I can't remember. But it was one of those can't remember. But it was one of those can't remember. But it was one of those New England has these nights that are New England has these nights that are New England has these nights that are simultaneously hot, but just like a simultaneously hot, but just like a simultaneously hot, but just like a little bit of cool. So, it was just little bit of cool. So, it was just little bit of cool. So, it was just temperate even though it was July. And I temperate even though it was July. And I temperate even though it was July. And I just was overtaken with this sense of just was overtaken with this sense of just was overtaken with this sense of everything's okay, which I've had everything's okay, which I've had everything's okay, which I've had subsequently a few times on retreat subsequently a few times on retreat subsequently a few times on retreat and which if you strive for, you will and which if you strive for, you will and which if you strive for, you will never experience. But there was never experience. But there was never experience. But there was something about just the randomness of something about just the randomness of something about just the randomness of sitting there undistracted, open sitting there undistracted, open sitting there undistracted, open outside where yeah, I was joy ready outside where yeah, I was joy ready outside where yeah, I was joy ready in ways that modern life militates in ways that modern life militates in ways that modern life militates against. against. against. >> That's so right. That makes me want to >> That's so right. That makes me want to >> That's so right. That makes me want to write down joy ready. I really like write down joy ready. I really like write down joy ready. I really like that. I think that that's right. like that. I think that that's right. like that. I think that that's right. like your eyes, you've got this aperture so your eyes, you've got this aperture so your eyes, you've got this aperture so that you've kind of let out all the that you've kind of let out all the that you've kind of let out all the granularity of everything. The the world granularity of everything. The the world granularity of everything. The the world as it is kind of filter in and then the as it is kind of filter in and then the as it is kind of filter in and then the world as it is all of a sudden gets world as it is all of a sudden gets world as it is all of a sudden gets recast as like recast as like recast as like >> it's almost like it's like falling in >> it's almost like it's like falling in >> it's almost like it's like falling in love where it's just like it's love where it's just like it's love where it's just like it's beautiful. It's just so beautiful. And beautiful. It's just so beautiful. And beautiful. It's just so beautiful. And then other times I think you kind of then other times I think you kind of then other times I think you kind of have to find the yes inside of a have to find the yes inside of a have to find the yes inside of a situation where you would otherwise want situation where you would otherwise want situation where you would otherwise want to say no. to say no. to say no. had a very bizarre version of that when had a very bizarre version of that when had a very bizarre version of that when I was coming out of a very difficult I was coming out of a very difficult I was coming out of a very difficult surgery and I'd had a doctor I really surgery and I'd had a doctor I really surgery and I'd had a doctor I really hated hated hated >> and I was ready to go home and they you >> and I was ready to go home and they you >> and I was ready to go home and they you know me go through like the mostly know me go through like the mostly know me go through like the mostly checkout process and I was waiting for checkout process and I was waiting for checkout process and I was waiting for someone to come pick me up and I'm someone to come pick me up and I'm someone to come pick me up and I'm sitting like in a very normal sitting like in a very normal sitting like in a very normal going home room in the hospital and the going home room in the hospital and the going home room in the hospital and the doctor comes in he's like Kate I'm here doctor comes in he's like Kate I'm here doctor comes in he's like Kate I'm here to take a surgical drain out of your to take a surgical drain out of your to take a surgical drain out of your stomach and it was one stomach and it was one stomach and it was one the doctor I hated. And two, I was not the doctor I hated. And two, I was not the doctor I hated. And two, I was not actually aware at that time that I had a actually aware at that time that I had a actually aware at that time that I had a surgical drain in my stomach. And I was surgical drain in my stomach. And I was surgical drain in my stomach. And I was like, "No." Like, no. I just The answer like, "No." Like, no. I just The answer like, "No." Like, no. I just The answer is no. Like, actually, I just have this is no. Like, actually, I just have this is no. Like, actually, I just have this nice smooth bandage on my stomach and nice smooth bandage on my stomach and nice smooth bandage on my stomach and everything's all tucked in and I've got everything's all tucked in and I've got everything's all tucked in and I've got my nice going home clothes on and I my my nice going home clothes on and I my my nice going home clothes on and I my stuff is packed. And the answer to you, stuff is packed. And the answer to you, stuff is packed. And the answer to you, sir, is [laughter] absolutely not. And I sir, is [laughter] absolutely not. And I sir, is [laughter] absolutely not. And I don't really know what my plan was, like don't really know what my plan was, like don't really know what my plan was, like go home and do it myself. like what was go home and do it myself. like what was go home and do it myself. like what was I going to do with that new information? I going to do with that new information? I going to do with that new information? And um everything in me was like And um everything in me was like And um everything in me was like absolutely absolutely absolutely not. But I knew that of course like I not. But I knew that of course like I not. But I knew that of course like I don't really get a choice. But if I don't really get a choice. But if I don't really get a choice. But if I don't get a choice, is there anything don't get a choice, is there anything don't get a choice, is there anything else there? And I just had this weird else there? And I just had this weird else there? And I just had this weird like sense I should just find a like sense I should just find a like sense I should just find a different answer than no. And he had his different answer than no. And he had his different answer than no. And he had his hands up in front of him cuz they were hands up in front of him cuz they were hands up in front of him cuz they were clean, I guess, cuz he was about to tear clean, I guess, cuz he was about to tear clean, I guess, cuz he was about to tear something horrifying out of my body. And something horrifying out of my body. And something horrifying out of my body. And just the way his hands up like that, it just the way his hands up like that, it just the way his hands up like that, it just reminded me of when I had this one just reminded me of when I had this one just reminded me of when I had this one brother-in-law. He was this big beefy. brother-in-law. He was this big beefy. brother-in-law. He was this big beefy. He was into wrestling and um he was for He was into wrestling and um he was for He was into wrestling and um he was for a season very into up close magic. So a season very into up close magic. So a season very into up close magic. So he's always trying to like take coins he's always trying to like take coins he's always trying to like take coins out from behind my ear or like just like out from behind my ear or like just like out from behind my ear or like just like like constantly scarves on scarves out like constantly scarves on scarves out like constantly scarves on scarves out of sleeves that he wasn't wearing. And of sleeves that he wasn't wearing. And of sleeves that he wasn't wearing. And he was just like such a funny guy. But he was just like such a funny guy. But he was just like such a funny guy. But his hands up like that just really his hands up like that just really his hands up like that just really reminded me of like my brother-in-law's reminded me of like my brother-in-law's reminded me of like my brother-in-law's up close magic. So instead of saying no up close magic. So instead of saying no up close magic. So instead of saying no to this doctor, I was like, "Okay, you to this doctor, I was like, "Okay, you to this doctor, I was like, "Okay, you can take the surgical drain out, but I can take the surgical drain out, but I can take the surgical drain out, but I need you to do it as a magic trick." And need you to do it as a magic trick." And need you to do it as a magic trick." And he just like the look of deadness in his he just like the look of deadness in his he just like the look of deadness in his eyes as our eyes locked. And it was just eyes as our eyes locked. And it was just eyes as our eyes locked. And it was just like a full confrontation. And then like a full confrontation. And then like a full confrontation. And then without saying a word, he spun out and without saying a word, he spun out and without saying a word, he spun out and then [laughter] he like comes in, "Knock then [laughter] he like comes in, "Knock then [laughter] he like comes in, "Knock knock. Kate, I'm here to take a surgical knock. Kate, I'm here to take a surgical knock. Kate, I'm here to take a surgical drain out of your stomach and I will do drain out of your stomach and I will do drain out of your stomach and I will do it as a magic trick." And [laughter] I it as a magic trick." And [laughter] I it as a magic trick." And [laughter] I was like very like we had like suddenly was like very like we had like suddenly was like very like we had like suddenly grand ceremony between us. So I arranged grand ceremony between us. So I arranged grand ceremony between us. So I arranged myself on the hospital bed and like you myself on the hospital bed and like you myself on the hospital bed and like you know pulled my shirt up and there's this know pulled my shirt up and there's this know pulled my shirt up and there's this bandage and he's pulling off a bandage bandage and he's pulling off a bandage bandage and he's pulling off a bandage and he's like look and I do really and he's like look and I do really and he's like look and I do really appreciate it when you're going through appreciate it when you're going through appreciate it when you're going through something tough if someone gives you something tough if someone gives you something tough if someone gives you like a very specific description and he like a very specific description and he like a very specific description and he said you you're going to feel a deep said you you're going to feel a deep said you you're going to feel a deep pinch and you're going to feel a hard pinch and you're going to feel a hard pinch and you're going to feel a hard pull. So so hard like I'm going to have pull. So so hard like I'm going to have pull. So so hard like I'm going to have to hold on to the side of the bed. And to hold on to the side of the bed. And to hold on to the side of the bed. And so I closed my eyes and I felt a very so I closed my eyes and I felt a very so I closed my eyes and I felt a very deep pinch and then it felt like an deep pinch and then it felt like an deep pinch and then it felt like an anchor being rested from the sea floor anchor being rested from the sea floor anchor being rested from the sea floor like my insides are becoming my like my insides are becoming my like my insides are becoming my outsides. [laughter] I said, so I open outsides. [laughter] I said, so I open outsides. [laughter] I said, so I open my eyes and there's this doctor holding my eyes and there's this doctor holding my eyes and there's this doctor holding what appears to be like 200 million feet what appears to be like 200 million feet what appears to be like 200 million feet of tubing in his hands and I can see of tubing in his hands and I can see of tubing in his hands and I can see that he has an enormous bright red that he has an enormous bright red that he has an enormous bright red spray, what is obviously my blood spray, what is obviously my blood spray, what is obviously my blood because he did something wrong. And we because he did something wrong. And we because he did something wrong. And we stared at each other in utter horror and stared at each other in utter horror and stared at each other in utter horror and then he just goes, "Tada!" then he just goes, "Tada!" then he just goes, "Tada!" [laughter] like the like like the like the him being committed to the magic the him being committed to the magic the him being committed to the magic trick [laughter] like absolutely put me trick [laughter] like absolutely put me trick [laughter] like absolutely put me over the edge. I was h like like truly over the edge. I was h like like truly over the edge. I was h like like truly like joyful about that for like a week like joyful about that for like a week like joyful about that for like a week and then [laughter] like and I what I and then [laughter] like and I what I and then [laughter] like and I what I what I learned in that insanity is that what I learned in that insanity is that what I learned in that insanity is that like sometimes even when you can't say like sometimes even when you can't say like sometimes even when you can't say no see if you can find the yes but in no see if you can find the yes but in no see if you can find the yes but in the yes this is the bit about the the yes this is the bit about the the yes this is the bit about the randomness of joy there is a weird kind randomness of joy there is a weird kind randomness of joy there is a weird kind of magic that that happens where what of magic that that happens where what of magic that that happens where what was supposed to be a horrific experience was supposed to be a horrific experience was supposed to be a horrific experience ends up being a doctor who regularly ends up being a doctor who regularly ends up being a doctor who regularly comes to my lectures now then I so I I comes to my lectures now then I so I I comes to my lectures now then I so I I see I see him every now and then. see I see him every now and then. see I see him every now and then. >> Wow. >> Wow. >> Wow. >> Tada indeed. [laughter] >> Tada indeed. [laughter] >> Tada indeed. [laughter] >> I've really taken that to be like uh is >> I've really taken that to be like uh is >> I've really taken that to be like uh is there a tadada here somewhere? Yes. there a tadada here somewhere? Yes. there a tadada here somewhere? Yes. Somewhere Somewhere Somewhere >> in the things that I'm not going to be >> in the things that I'm not going to be >> in the things that I'm not going to be able to control. able to control. able to control. >> Okay. But so that strikes me as a kind >> Okay. But so that strikes me as a kind >> Okay. But so that strikes me as a kind of a cousin of gratitude which is a term of a cousin of gratitude which is a term of a cousin of gratitude which is a term that you used earlier and all of that that you used earlier and all of that that you used earlier and all of that feels to me like a trainable skill. I feels to me like a trainable skill. I feels to me like a trainable skill. I know we're saying that joy know we're saying that joy know we're saying that joy >> is grace, you know, like we you can't >> is grace, you know, like we you can't >> is grace, you know, like we you can't manufacture it, but having a like a manufacture it, but having a like a manufacture it, but having a like a background attitude of not taking stuff background attitude of not taking stuff background attitude of not taking stuff for granted, of looking out for delight for granted, of looking out for delight for granted, of looking out for delight and things that you're glad about. That and things that you're glad about. That and things that you're glad about. That feels like the opposite of a joy feels like the opposite of a joy feels like the opposite of a joy blocker. blocker. blocker. >> I'm like going writing down background >> I'm like going writing down background >> I'm like going writing down background attitude now because that's really good. attitude now because that's really good. attitude now because that's really good. I totally agree. Yeah, I do. I think I totally agree. Yeah, I do. I think I totally agree. Yeah, I do. I think that there's like in any good and that there's like in any good and that there's like in any good and beautiful thing that happens, I do think beautiful thing that happens, I do think beautiful thing that happens, I do think there's a little window of where there's there's a little window of where there's there's a little window of where there's possibility for action and play and possibility for action and play and possibility for action and play and engagement with what's happening. So, in engagement with what's happening. So, in engagement with what's happening. So, in these background attitudes, I agree. I these background attitudes, I agree. I these background attitudes, I agree. I think finding a little movement where it think finding a little movement where it think finding a little movement where it looks like there's none. And I think we looks like there's none. And I think we looks like there's none. And I think we see it in um I mean, this is partly why see it in um I mean, this is partly why see it in um I mean, this is partly why I'm kind of in love with Alan Alda. Are I'm kind of in love with Alan Alda. Are I'm kind of in love with Alan Alda. Are you also in love with Alen? I feel like you also in love with Alen? I feel like you also in love with Alen? I feel like everyone should be in love with Alan everyone should be in love with Alan everyone should be in love with Alan Alda. I'm in like with Alan Aldo. He's Alda. I'm in like with Alan Aldo. He's Alda. I'm in like with Alan Aldo. He's not somebody I think about much, but not somebody I think about much, but not somebody I think about much, but maybe you can tip me over. maybe you can tip me over. maybe you can tip me over. >> This is about to change for you because >> This is about to change for you because >> This is about to change for you because this man [laughter] in response like he this man [laughter] in response like he this man [laughter] in response like he did, you know, he had a long of course did, you know, he had a long of course did, you know, he had a long of course amazing, impressive career in acting, amazing, impressive career in acting, amazing, impressive career in acting, but um was a science communicator for a but um was a science communicator for a but um was a science communicator for a really long time. And so he started this really long time. And so he started this really long time. And so he started this incredible program with a university in incredible program with a university in incredible program with a university in New York to teach improv skills to New York to teach improv skills to New York to teach improv skills to doctors and science communicators of all doctors and science communicators of all doctors and science communicators of all kinds and realize that the more you can kinds and realize that the more you can kinds and realize that the more you can add play and responsiveness in frankly add play and responsiveness in frankly add play and responsiveness in frankly like very emotionally fraught like very emotionally fraught like very emotionally fraught conversations, the more you can find conversations, the more you can find conversations, the more you can find little windows of possibility little windows of possibility little windows of possibility possibility for like misunderstanding. possibility for like misunderstanding. possibility for like misunderstanding. Is there something I can make the truth Is there something I can make the truth Is there something I can make the truth more evident to you? But also, I think more evident to you? But also, I think more evident to you? But also, I think just for like meaning making in what just for like meaning making in what just for like meaning making in what otherwise feels like, man, like I just otherwise feels like, man, like I just otherwise feels like, man, like I just get handed a diagnosis or I just get get handed a diagnosis or I just get get handed a diagnosis or I just get handed the life I have. So, I loved the handed the life I have. So, I loved the handed the life I have. So, I loved the idea that there's just so much when idea that there's just so much when idea that there's just so much when we're trying to like respond to reality we're trying to like respond to reality we're trying to like respond to reality that if we can reframe it a little bit that if we can reframe it a little bit that if we can reframe it a little bit closer to play and delight, I think it closer to play and delight, I think it closer to play and delight, I think it it's it's easier for us to bring our it's it's easier for us to bring our it's it's easier for us to bring our full selves into a situation that can full selves into a situation that can full selves into a situation that can otherwise feel very brittle and frankly otherwise feel very brittle and frankly otherwise feel very brittle and frankly like quite traumatic. What I'm about to like quite traumatic. What I'm about to like quite traumatic. What I'm about to say is a little bit of a conversational say is a little bit of a conversational say is a little bit of a conversational bankshot, but the what you're saying bankshot, but the what you're saying bankshot, but the what you're saying reminds me of the emphasis that you hear reminds me of the emphasis that you hear reminds me of the emphasis that you hear in Zen Buddhism in Zen Buddhism in Zen Buddhism on spontaneity. That if you're not so on spontaneity. That if you're not so on spontaneity. That if you're not so stuck in the swirling stories of your stuck in the swirling stories of your stuck in the swirling stories of your mind, mind, mind, past, future, what are people thinking past, future, what are people thinking past, future, what are people thinking of me, etc., etc., that you can be more of me, etc., etc., that you can be more of me, etc., etc., that you can be more awake and aware in the moment and awake and aware in the moment and awake and aware in the moment and therefore more responsive. All of which therefore more responsive. All of which therefore more responsive. All of which seems like another way to be joy ready. seems like another way to be joy ready. seems like another way to be joy ready. >> I really like that. Yeah. And people are >> I really like that. Yeah. And people are >> I really like that. Yeah. And people are thinking though, Dan, I'll just tell you thinking though, Dan, I'll just tell you thinking though, Dan, I'll just tell you that they like you and it's going really that they like you and it's going really that they like you and it's going really well. So, you don't have to have that well. So, you don't have to have that well. So, you don't have to have that thought anymore. But in case you were thought anymore. But in case you were thought anymore. But in case you were wondering, I'm just doing consumer wondering, I'm just doing consumer wondering, I'm just doing consumer response. response. response. >> I can tell you I get plenty of the >> I can tell you I get plenty of the >> I can tell you I get plenty of the opposite feedback on the regular. So, opposite feedback on the regular. So, opposite feedback on the regular. So, [laughter] [laughter] [laughter] >> no. Uh, my opinion is declarative and >> no. Uh, my opinion is declarative and >> no. Uh, my opinion is declarative and I'm a professor. So, you're welcome. I'm a professor. So, you're welcome. I'm a professor. So, you're welcome. >> Exactly. This is an argument I'll let >> Exactly. This is an argument I'll let >> Exactly. This is an argument I'll let you win. you win. you win. >> Thank you. [laughter] I felt right. It >> Thank you. [laughter] I felt right. It >> Thank you. [laughter] I felt right. It felt right when I was saying it. felt right when I was saying it. felt right when I was saying it. >> Okay. So, your book, which is called >> Okay. So, your book, which is called >> Okay. So, your book, which is called Joyful Anyway, talks a lot about how to Joyful Anyway, talks a lot about how to Joyful Anyway, talks a lot about how to put yourself in the way of joy. Um, but put yourself in the way of joy. Um, but put yourself in the way of joy. Um, but you also you talk about um something you also you talk about um something you also you talk about um something called the ache. I'm curious what you called the ache. I'm curious what you called the ache. I'm curious what you mean by that. What is the ache and how mean by that. What is the ache and how mean by that. What is the ache and how is it related to joy? is it related to joy? is it related to joy? >> I was looking for the right kind of >> I was looking for the right kind of >> I was looking for the right kind of historical and philosophical historical and philosophical historical and philosophical just like emotional framework. For many just like emotional framework. For many just like emotional framework. For many of us, the default state coming into our of us, the default state coming into our of us, the default state coming into our desire for joy is like, why does it feel desire for joy is like, why does it feel desire for joy is like, why does it feel like there's a kind of like there's a kind of like there's a kind of bittersweet longing inside of us so bittersweet longing inside of us so bittersweet longing inside of us so often? I mean, sometimes it feels like often? I mean, sometimes it feels like often? I mean, sometimes it feels like Hungry Hungry Hippos, which was a game I Hungry Hungry Hippos, which was a game I Hungry Hungry Hippos, which was a game I was very good at. It really struck me as was very good at. It really struck me as was very good at. It really struck me as a question that felt almost a question that felt almost a question that felt almost inappropriate to ask for someone like me inappropriate to ask for someone like me inappropriate to ask for someone like me who has been just has so much to be who has been just has so much to be who has been just has so much to be grateful for and has [clears throat] grateful for and has [clears throat] grateful for and has [clears throat] been given back so much. And so it just been given back so much. And so it just been given back so much. And so it just I wondered like why is it that I feel I wondered like why is it that I feel I wondered like why is it that I feel the ache is this feeling of like longing the ache is this feeling of like longing the ache is this feeling of like longing of of restlessness of incompleteness. of of restlessness of incompleteness. of of restlessness of incompleteness. And it can either be seen in a And it can either be seen in a And it can either be seen in a theological framework as a kind of like theological framework as a kind of like theological framework as a kind of like missing piece and then you find your missing piece and then you find your missing piece and then you find your rest in God. So [laughter] I teach in a rest in God. So [laughter] I teach in a rest in God. So [laughter] I teach in a seminary so it's not like I'm not like seminary so it's not like I'm not like seminary so it's not like I'm not like ready with all these responses. So I ready with all these responses. So I ready with all these responses. So I just kind of went looking for why it is just kind of went looking for why it is just kind of went looking for why it is that that language and that sort of that that language and that sort of that that language and that sort of indictment of the human condition is so indictment of the human condition is so indictment of the human condition is so common. Very often, frankly, the common. Very often, frankly, the common. Very often, frankly, the language that's used for it is is often language that's used for it is is often language that's used for it is is often like a a musical analogy. it feels like like a a musical analogy. it feels like like a a musical analogy. it feels like the blues or in Portuguese sa or this the blues or in Portuguese sa or this the blues or in Portuguese sa or this kind of like truths you can only sing in kind of like truths you can only sing in kind of like truths you can only sing in a minor key. And so I think we either a minor key. And so I think we either a minor key. And so I think we either have to decide when we feel like that have to decide when we feel like that have to decide when we feel like that that again we're a problem to be solved that again we're a problem to be solved that again we're a problem to be solved and it's just like another thing to fix and it's just like another thing to fix and it's just like another thing to fix about it or it's a glitch in the system about it or it's a glitch in the system about it or it's a glitch in the system and there's something wrong with us. And and there's something wrong with us. And and there's something wrong with us. And I'm not saying there's not anything I'm not saying there's not anything I'm not saying there's not anything specifically wrong with me. Not that I'd specifically wrong with me. Not that I'd specifically wrong with me. Not that I'd want that, but I'm saying that's not want that, but I'm saying that's not want that, but I'm saying that's not necessarily untrue. But [laughter] if necessarily untrue. But [laughter] if necessarily untrue. But [laughter] if there is this ache inside like there is this ache inside like there is this ache inside like does this mean that we're more or less does this mean that we're more or less does this mean that we're more or less capable of experiencing joy. Okay. So, I capable of experiencing joy. Okay. So, I capable of experiencing joy. Okay. So, I kind of went talking to like as a series kind of went talking to like as a series kind of went talking to like as a series of historians and theologians and of historians and theologians and of historians and theologians and psychologists and I loved my psychologists and I loved my psychologists and I loved my conversation with Father Ron Rollheiser conversation with Father Ron Rollheiser conversation with Father Ron Rollheiser who's um professor and spirit priest and who's um professor and spirit priest and who's um professor and spirit priest and he was like, "Look, Kate, this thing he was like, "Look, Kate, this thing he was like, "Look, Kate, this thing that you're kind of describing as a sort that you're kind of describing as a sort that you're kind of describing as a sort of character flaw is so universal in the of character flaw is so universal in the of character flaw is so universal in the human condition." He's like, "Kate, as human condition." He's like, "Kate, as human condition." He's like, "Kate, as babies were born crying, there's a lot babies were born crying, there's a lot babies were born crying, there's a lot of crying in the middle. There really is of crying in the middle. There really is of crying in the middle. There really is a lot of crying at the end. So you can a lot of crying at the end. So you can a lot of crying at the end. So you can either decide this is this is an either decide this is this is an either decide this is this is an incompleteness or you can say that this incompleteness or you can say that this incompleteness or you can say that this ache this too has a kind of holiness to ache this too has a kind of holiness to ache this too has a kind of holiness to it. It's an engine and you can either it. It's an engine and you can either it. It's an engine and you can either use it to sort of kind of endlessly use it to sort of kind of endlessly use it to sort of kind of endlessly snack forever is to have these endless snack forever is to have these endless snack forever is to have these endless hungers or you can point it use it to hungers or you can point it use it to hungers or you can point it use it to point yourself toward these like deeper point yourself toward these like deeper point yourself toward these like deeper more satisfying more satisfying more satisfying still lovely things on offer that really still lovely things on offer that really still lovely things on offer that really I found it very encouraging to think I found it very encouraging to think I found it very encouraging to think about the ache that's inside of all of about the ache that's inside of all of about the ache that's inside of all of us how very us how very us how very normal it is especially around middle normal it is especially around middle normal it is especially around middle age to feel like I don't know what age to feel like I don't know what age to feel like I don't know what completeness feels feels like and then completeness feels feels like and then completeness feels feels like and then to start using that to reach for things to start using that to reach for things to start using that to reach for things that are more satisfying than like what that are more satisfying than like what that are more satisfying than like what you describe as like the million you describe as like the million you describe as like the million synthetic versions on offer. synthetic versions on offer. synthetic versions on offer. >> So I I can see how in a again to use >> So I I can see how in a again to use >> So I I can see how in a again to use your phrase Jesusy context the ache your phrase Jesusy context the ache your phrase Jesusy context the ache would be described as the god-shaped would be described as the god-shaped would be described as the god-shaped hole. hole. hole. >> Oh yes, they would. Yeah. Well, if you >> Oh yes, they would. Yeah. Well, if you >> Oh yes, they would. Yeah. Well, if you think that there's a solution to it, but think that there's a solution to it, but think that there's a solution to it, but it's less a hole that then has to be it's less a hole that then has to be it's less a hole that then has to be plugged and more a a quality of being plugged and more a a quality of being plugged and more a a quality of being alive. What what I was trying to get to alive. What what I was trying to get to alive. What what I was trying to get to there is that so in Buddhism there's there is that so in Buddhism there's there is that so in Buddhism there's this idea of the hungry ghost. I'm sure this idea of the hungry ghost. I'm sure this idea of the hungry ghost. I'm sure you're familiar with this. you're familiar with this. you're familiar with this. >> Yeah. But tell me, >> Yeah. But tell me, >> Yeah. But tell me, >> but for the viewers and listeners, these >> but for the viewers and listeners, these >> but for the viewers and listeners, these kind of mythical creatures that have kind of mythical creatures that have kind of mythical creatures that have huge stomachs but very narrow necks. So huge stomachs but very narrow necks. So huge stomachs but very narrow necks. So this just incredible insatiable hunger this just incredible insatiable hunger this just incredible insatiable hunger that can never be sated. That is the way that can never be sated. That is the way that can never be sated. That is the way many of us are. And that hunger [snorts] many of us are. And that hunger [snorts] many of us are. And that hunger [snorts] is based on a misconception, a is based on a misconception, a is based on a misconception, a fundamental misconception that there is fundamental misconception that there is fundamental misconception that there is something solid there to be hungry. That something solid there to be hungry. That something solid there to be hungry. That the self that we're building up and the self that we're building up and the self that we're building up and defending ultimately in the Buddhist defending ultimately in the Buddhist defending ultimately in the Buddhist view is an illusion. And so you can view is an illusion. And so you can view is an illusion. And so you can uproot the ache right there at the level uproot the ache right there at the level uproot the ache right there at the level of the self is I believe the Buddhist of the self is I believe the Buddhist of the self is I believe the Buddhist proposition. So anyway, I'm saying all proposition. So anyway, I'm saying all proposition. So anyway, I'm saying all that just to hear how that goes down that just to hear how that goes down that just to hear how that goes down with you based on the fact that you're a with you based on the fact that you're a with you based on the fact that you're a professor of religion. professor of religion. professor of religion. >> I think you're totally right. every good >> I think you're totally right. every good >> I think you're totally right. every good like solution comes from an analysis like solution comes from an analysis like solution comes from an analysis like a like a like a an indictment of the human condition and an indictment of the human condition and an indictment of the human condition and that at that level the the Christian that at that level the the Christian that at that level the the Christian framework would be we're trying to framework would be we're trying to framework would be we're trying to decide just how much our hunger is one decide just how much our hunger is one decide just how much our hunger is one theological interpretation is that it is theological interpretation is that it is theological interpretation is that it is entirely just evidence of our sin and entirely just evidence of our sin and entirely just evidence of our sin and our fallenness and shows them that we our fallenness and shows them that we our fallenness and shows them that we have to be utterly redeemed or in this have to be utterly redeemed or in this have to be utterly redeemed or in this version that you know father Ron and version that you know father Ron and version that you know father Ron and others proposes is that it's it's It's a others proposes is that it's it's It's a others proposes is that it's it's It's a much more much more much more neutral neutral neutral um um um not indictment but just description not indictment but just description not indictment but just description of our desire to be to be set on a of our desire to be to be set on a of our desire to be to be set on a journey as long as we're pointed in the journey as long as we're pointed in the journey as long as we're pointed in the in a particular direction. in a particular direction. in a particular direction. >> And I I think in that in that case I had >> And I I think in that in that case I had >> And I I think in that in that case I had previously imagined it much more like in previously imagined it much more like in previously imagined it much more like in the Buddhist framework as a kind of the Buddhist framework as a kind of the Buddhist framework as a kind of indictment against hunger itself. I just indictment against hunger itself. I just indictment against hunger itself. I just remember the feeling of when I moved remember the feeling of when I moved remember the feeling of when I moved from kind of being a cancer patient all from kind of being a cancer patient all from kind of being a cancer patient all the time to feeling like I was back to the time to feeling like I was back to the time to feeling like I was back to being a person. I wondered why the being a person. I wondered why the being a person. I wondered why the hunger kind of came roaring back to hunger kind of came roaring back to hunger kind of came roaring back to life. And it didn't feel like it was, life. And it didn't feel like it was, life. And it didn't feel like it was, you know, just for like, you know, just for like, you know, just for like, you know, weight loss and diamond you know, weight loss and diamond you know, weight loss and diamond medallion status and for that kind of medallion status and for that kind of medallion status and for that kind of thing. It felt like this like roaring thing. It felt like this like roaring thing. It felt like this like roaring desire to be alive, but that aliveness desire to be alive, but that aliveness desire to be alive, but that aliveness felt almost identical with almost just felt almost identical with almost just felt almost identical with almost just wanting to eat the whole world. And that wanting to eat the whole world. And that wanting to eat the whole world. And that that also just felt like being back in that also just felt like being back in that also just felt like being back in love in a different way. love in a different way. love in a different way. >> The ache in some way felt identical to >> The ache in some way felt identical to >> The ache in some way felt identical to being in in love like you were feeling being in in love like you were feeling being in in love like you were feeling joy in the achiness. There's this this joy in the achiness. There's this this joy in the achiness. There's this this quality of wanting more that's so quality of wanting more that's so quality of wanting more that's so specific to us being on this path. Like specific to us being on this path. Like specific to us being on this path. Like let me give you an example about like let me give you an example about like let me give you an example about like the way that ache isn't necessarily a the way that ache isn't necessarily a the way that ache isn't necessarily a negative. It can feel very similar to negative. It can feel very similar to negative. It can feel very similar to like when you look at your kid and in it like when you look at your kid and in it like when you look at your kid and in it is so much fear that you can't protect is so much fear that you can't protect is so much fear that you can't protect them from the world and then so much them from the world and then so much them from the world and then so much love and like I'll eat you up. I love love and like I'll eat you up. I love love and like I'll eat you up. I love you so. And you'll never look at them you so. And you'll never look at them you so. And you'll never look at them and think like and that was great and we and think like and that was great and we and think like and that was great and we did it and we loved each other and we did it and we loved each other and we did it and we loved each other and we actually had enough memories. I had six actually had enough memories. I had six actually had enough memories. I had six core memories with you like that's we're core memories with you like that's we're core memories with you like that's we're fine. Like there's this thing about the fine. Like there's this thing about the fine. Like there's this thing about the nature of I think our hungers is that nature of I think our hungers is that nature of I think our hungers is that there will never be enough and that the there will never be enough and that the there will never be enough and that the moreness of love makes more which will moreness of love makes more which will moreness of love makes more which will always be tinged with both hunger and always be tinged with both hunger and always be tinged with both hunger and pain and love. And [snorts] I think pain and love. And [snorts] I think pain and love. And [snorts] I think framed in that way the ache doesn't framed in that way the ache doesn't framed in that way the ache doesn't necessarily have to be a negative thing. necessarily have to be a negative thing. necessarily have to be a negative thing. It can just be this kind of engine that It can just be this kind of engine that It can just be this kind of engine that is propelling us that we just have to we is propelling us that we just have to we is propelling us that we just have to we but we do have to set the compass. but we do have to set the compass. but we do have to set the compass. >> It's a positive spin on the hunger in >> It's a positive spin on the hunger in >> It's a positive spin on the hunger in that it points you in a direction. that it points you in a direction. that it points you in a direction. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> That maybe it's not a hole you can ever >> That maybe it's not a hole you can ever >> That maybe it's not a hole you can ever fill, but you can improve your life by fill, but you can improve your life by fill, but you can improve your life by listening to what you're hungering for listening to what you're hungering for listening to what you're hungering for and and and would the right word be pursuing it. would the right word be pursuing it. would the right word be pursuing it. >> Yeah. Yeah, I mean I and and I think in >> Yeah. Yeah, I mean I and and I think in >> Yeah. Yeah, I mean I and and I think in that Christian framework, we would call that Christian framework, we would call that Christian framework, we would call that desire to kind of slowly refine that desire to kind of slowly refine that desire to kind of slowly refine that hunger so that we're consuming the that hunger so that we're consuming the that hunger so that we're consuming the things we should be consuming. things we should be consuming. things we should be consuming. >> We call that sanctification, but we kind >> We call that sanctification, but we kind >> We call that sanctification, but we kind of are hoping that it has a kind of a of are hoping that it has a kind of a of are hoping that it has a kind of a refining quality that as we go we like refining quality that as we go we like refining quality that as we go we like hunger for more and more of what's hunger for more and more of what's hunger for more and more of what's lovely. lovely. lovely. >> Well, actually there is a Buddhist >> Well, actually there is a Buddhist >> Well, actually there is a Buddhist analog to that. So, tell me. analog to that. So, tell me. analog to that. So, tell me. >> Yes. I I do want to be careful because >> Yes. I I do want to be careful because >> Yes. I I do want to be careful because you actually know what you're talking you actually know what you're talking you actually know what you're talking about and I'm a [laughter] little bit about and I'm a [laughter] little bit about and I'm a [laughter] little bit like the guy who slept at a holiday in like the guy who slept at a holiday in like the guy who slept at a holiday in last night when I'm talking about last night when I'm talking about last night when I'm talking about Buddhism. But um [laughter] Buddhism. But um [laughter] Buddhism. But um [laughter] I do I'm going to do my best here. In I do I'm going to do my best here. In I do I'm going to do my best here. In Buddhism like the problem is hunger or Buddhism like the problem is hunger or Buddhism like the problem is hunger or thirst as it's sometimes translated. I thirst as it's sometimes translated. I thirst as it's sometimes translated. I think the ancient word for it is tanha. think the ancient word for it is tanha. think the ancient word for it is tanha. So it really is actually thirst but this So it really is actually thirst but this So it really is actually thirst but this unquenchability this uh you know unquenchability this uh you know unquenchability this uh you know insatiability that is the problem. But insatiability that is the problem. But insatiability that is the problem. But there is also chanda which is the there is also chanda which is the there is also chanda which is the ancient word for like a healthy desire ancient word for like a healthy desire ancient word for like a healthy desire for enlightenment. So it would be I for enlightenment. So it would be I for enlightenment. So it would be I think the Buddhist analog for think the Buddhist analog for think the Buddhist analog for sanctification. I have heard of Chanda, sanctification. I have heard of Chanda, sanctification. I have heard of Chanda, but I yeah, not a Buddhism scholar, but but I yeah, not a Buddhism scholar, but but I yeah, not a Buddhism scholar, but that's very I do I think it sounds like that's very I do I think it sounds like that's very I do I think it sounds like both frameworks have a kind of both frameworks have a kind of both frameworks have a kind of the hero's journey aspect in which we the hero's journey aspect in which we the hero's journey aspect in which we have this narrow window of what's have this narrow window of what's have this narrow window of what's possible and we have like a set of possible and we have like a set of possible and we have like a set of beautiful things, virtues that we're beautiful things, virtues that we're beautiful things, virtues that we're like hoping that we can cultivate and in like hoping that we can cultivate and in like hoping that we can cultivate and in doing so it kind of like doing so it kind of like doing so it kind of like >> it pushes us along a path. Well, so let >> it pushes us along a path. Well, so let >> it pushes us along a path. Well, so let me see if I can say how this has worked me see if I can say how this has worked me see if I can say how this has worked for me and you and you'll or how I think for me and you and you'll or how I think for me and you and you'll or how I think it's worked for me and just tell me if it's worked for me and just tell me if it's worked for me and just tell me if this sounds like it kind of fits the this sounds like it kind of fits the this sounds like it kind of fits the paradigm you're proposing here. I I've paradigm you're proposing here. I I've paradigm you're proposing here. I I've had several experiences again like on had several experiences again like on had several experiences again like on usually on meditation retreat especially usually on meditation retreat especially usually on meditation retreat especially in the early days where there's a in the early days where there's a in the early days where there's a homesickness or a loneliness or both. homesickness or a loneliness or both. homesickness or a loneliness or both. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> But it's not just that I miss my family >> But it's not just that I miss my family >> But it's not just that I miss my family which I do. It's a kind of much much which I do. It's a kind of much much which I do. It's a kind of much much more like primordial pining and it's not more like primordial pining and it's not more like primordial pining and it's not just like ah I'm eating this dish and it just like ah I'm eating this dish and it just like ah I'm eating this dish and it could use some more salt. It's much more could use some more salt. It's much more could use some more salt. It's much more fundamental. fundamental. fundamental. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> I have learned over time to tune into >> I have learned over time to tune into >> I have learned over time to tune into that and and realize that what I'm that and and realize that what I'm that and and realize that what I'm really thirsting for but in the Chanda really thirsting for but in the Chanda really thirsting for but in the Chanda sense is better and fuller sense is better and fuller sense is better and fuller relationships. relationships. relationships. >> That's beautiful. And especially now >> That's beautiful. And especially now >> That's beautiful. And especially now when we've got this sort of very strange when we've got this sort of very strange when we've got this sort of very strange buffet in front of us and people are not buffet in front of us and people are not buffet in front of us and people are not sure what to want right now. I sure what to want right now. I sure what to want right now. I [clears throat] mean one enormous worry [clears throat] mean one enormous worry [clears throat] mean one enormous worry I think we should have is for people I think we should have is for people I think we should have is for people who've decided not to want anything. The who've decided not to want anything. The who've decided not to want anything. The amount of like nealism in our culture amount of like nealism in our culture amount of like nealism in our culture right now of people who feel right now of people who feel right now of people who feel because they're so hopeless that it because they're so hopeless that it because they're so hopeless that it doesn't matter what they hunger for. the doesn't matter what they hunger for. the doesn't matter what they hunger for. the amount of like online gaming what that amount of like online gaming what that amount of like online gaming what that reflects about people's lack of belief reflects about people's lack of belief reflects about people's lack of belief that it matters if they save for the that it matters if they save for the that it matters if they save for the future because no one cares about their future because no one cares about their future because no one cares about their work and AI is going to take their job work and AI is going to take their job work and AI is going to take their job like this this spinning story of like like this this spinning story of like like this this spinning story of like how nothing we do matters and you can how nothing we do matters and you can how nothing we do matters and you can just and then just like take what's just and then just like take what's just and then just like take what's there just take what's there has created there just take what's there has created there just take what's there has created a a real confusion for a lot of us about a a real confusion for a lot of us about a a real confusion for a lot of us about like what is worth wanting right now and like what is worth wanting right now and like what is worth wanting right now and does it matter and so anything I think does it matter and so anything I think does it matter and so anything I think that furthers our conversation about how that furthers our conversation about how that furthers our conversation about how we can hope that our hungers can we can hope that our hungers can we can hope that our hungers can fuel us and sustain us for like for fuel us and sustain us for like for fuel us and sustain us for like for relationship, for love, for relationship, for love, for relationship, for love, for like these little cousins of joy, like like these little cousins of joy, like like these little cousins of joy, like for hope, for delight, for service. Like for hope, for delight, for service. Like for hope, for delight, for service. Like those are these things that like I I those are these things that like I I those are these things that like I I think we can tell that they're we're think we can tell that they're we're think we can tell that they're we're headed in the right direction when we headed in the right direction when we headed in the right direction when we start to see that they want a future for start to see that they want a future for start to see that they want a future for us and for other people. like they us and for other people. like they us and for other people. like they inherently make us more inherently make us more inherently make us more self-sacrificing, more in tune with like self-sacrificing, more in tune with like self-sacrificing, more in tune with like the the world and other people. The ones the the world and other people. The ones the the world and other people. The ones I really worry about are the desires I really worry about are the desires I really worry about are the desires that are just these like endless small that are just these like endless small that are just these like endless small flames and they're burning everybody up. flames and they're burning everybody up. flames and they're burning everybody up. >> I saw a video the other day on Tik Tok. >> I saw a video the other day on Tik Tok. >> I saw a video the other day on Tik Tok. I've said this publicly before, but I'll I've said this publicly before, but I'll I've said this publicly before, but I'll just say it again. I'm not a hu I don't just say it again. I'm not a hu I don't just say it again. I'm not a hu I don't have Instagram on my phone because it have Instagram on my phone because it have Instagram on my phone because it makes me miserable. But I actually like makes me miserable. But I actually like makes me miserable. But I actually like Tik Tok because I've trained the Tik Tok because I've trained the Tik Tok because I've trained the algorithm to only feed me comedy clips algorithm to only feed me comedy clips algorithm to only feed me comedy clips and animal videos and emotional and animal videos and emotional and animal videos and emotional >> squirrels becoming friends with >> squirrels becoming friends with >> squirrels becoming friends with somebody. Amazing. somebody. Amazing. somebody. Amazing. >> So it actually is for the 15 minutes a >> So it actually is for the 15 minutes a >> So it actually is for the 15 minutes a day that I do it. And I actually don't day that I do it. And I actually don't day that I do it. And I actually don't find myself wanting to do it for much find myself wanting to do it for much find myself wanting to do it for much more than that, but for the 15 minutes a more than that, but for the 15 minutes a more than that, but for the 15 minutes a day that I do it or maybe sometimes on a day that I do it or maybe sometimes on a day that I do it or maybe sometimes on a particularly lazy day 30, it is really particularly lazy day 30, it is really particularly lazy day 30, it is really actually fun. Anyway, I saw a video the actually fun. Anyway, I saw a video the actually fun. Anyway, I saw a video the other day um of this guy saying they other day um of this guy saying they other day um of this guy saying they keep saying AI is gonna like take our keep saying AI is gonna like take our keep saying AI is gonna like take our jobs. Like when will that happen? I I jobs. Like when will that happen? I I jobs. Like when will that happen? I I want it to take my job. That's a funny want it to take my job. That's a funny want it to take my job. That's a funny version of it. But I do think the version of it. But I do think the version of it. But I do think the nihilism that you're talking about gives nihilism that you're talking about gives nihilism that you're talking about gives us Trump, you know? It's like this burn us Trump, you know? It's like this burn us Trump, you know? It's like this burn it all down Jokeresque let's elect the it all down Jokeresque let's elect the it all down Jokeresque let's elect the orange line guy because it's all a game orange line guy because it's all a game orange line guy because it's all a game and none of it matters. and none of it matters. and none of it matters. >> Yeah. None of it matters is a really >> Yeah. None of it matters is a really >> Yeah. None of it matters is a really terrifying terrifying terrifying poison in the water right now. poison in the water right now. poison in the water right now. >> Yes. >> Yes. >> Yes. >> And >> And >> And >> it's hard to convince people what hope >> it's hard to convince people what hope >> it's hard to convince people what hope is for specifically like and what hope is for specifically like and what hope is for specifically like and what hope will mean. Hope will mean that democracy will mean. Hope will mean that democracy will mean. Hope will mean that democracy is held up by trusted institutions. Hope is held up by trusted institutions. Hope is held up by trusted institutions. Hope will mean people can have valuable will mean people can have valuable will mean people can have valuable [clears throat] [clears throat] [clears throat] opinions based on expertise and opinions based on expertise and opinions based on expertise and education to be in service of the education to be in service of the education to be in service of the broader public. Like I'm really hoping broader public. Like I'm really hoping broader public. Like I'm really hoping hoping that like we're going to we're hoping that like we're going to we're hoping that like we're going to we're going to soon see the tides turn that going to soon see the tides turn that going to soon see the tides turn that like we need the things that shelter us like we need the things that shelter us like we need the things that shelter us and our communities. And I'm I'm just so and our communities. And I'm I'm just so and our communities. And I'm I'm just so worried about the amount that worried about the amount that worried about the amount that hopelessness is causing people not to hopelessness is causing people not to hopelessness is causing people not to worry about the institutions that are worry about the institutions that are worry about the institutions that are crumbling around us that like genuinely crumbling around us that like genuinely crumbling around us that like genuinely need our support. Like the news, like need our support. Like the news, like need our support. Like the news, like higher ed. higher ed. higher ed. >> Yeah. And like the government itself. >> Yeah. And like the government itself. >> Yeah. And like the government itself. like the government, like voting like the government, like voting like the government, like voting processes, like people who sign up to processes, like people who sign up to processes, like people who sign up to work at the ballot. I I cry every time I work at the ballot. I I cry every time I work at the ballot. I I cry every time I see people I always I would started see people I always I would started see people I always I would started voting. I'm only just gotten American voting. I'm only just gotten American voting. I'm only just gotten American citizenship. And citizenship. And citizenship. And >> where are you from originally? >> where are you from originally? >> where are you from originally? >> Oh, I'm I am the most Canadian. >> Oh, I'm I am the most Canadian. >> Oh, I'm I am the most Canadian. >> Yeah, I was going to guess that. Yeah. >> Yeah, I was going to guess that. Yeah. >> Yeah, I was going to guess that. Yeah. Sorry. Sorry. Sorry. >> Sorry. Sorry. Sorry. >> Sorry. Sorry. Sorry. >> Sorry. Sorry. Sorry. >> Yeah. [laughter] >> Yeah. [laughter] >> Yeah. [laughter] >> So, you just got American citizenship. >> So, you just got American citizenship. >> So, you just got American citizenship. Sorry. Sorry. Sorry. >> Because I didn't want to be ejected from >> Because I didn't want to be ejected from >> Because I didn't want to be ejected from this country for free speech is why I this country for free speech is why I this country for free speech is why I did that. I just cry looking at the did that. I just cry looking at the did that. I just cry looking at the people volunteering at the voting booth. people volunteering at the voting booth. people volunteering at the voting booth. Like this is just a small acts of Like this is just a small acts of Like this is just a small acts of hopefulness in the way that all of our hopefulness in the way that all of our hopefulness in the way that all of our small actions contribute to small actions contribute to small actions contribute to trusted communities. One of the things trusted communities. One of the things trusted communities. One of the things that should really worry us honestly is that should really worry us honestly is that should really worry us honestly is like the the decline in a certain kind like the the decline in a certain kind like the the decline in a certain kind of volunteerism rates. If you look at of volunteerism rates. If you look at of volunteerism rates. If you look at like about a quarter of Americans like about a quarter of Americans like about a quarter of Americans volunteer and they have those are very volunteer and they have those are very volunteer and they have those are very steady numbers since 1970s that we can steady numbers since 1970s that we can steady numbers since 1970s that we can track them. But the kind of volunteer track them. But the kind of volunteer track them. But the kind of volunteer has changed in which they're typically has changed in which they're typically has changed in which they're typically they they used to be people who they they used to be people who they they used to be people who volunteered in their community the same volunteered in their community the same volunteered in their community the same way every time. And now we have the same way every time. And now we have the same way every time. And now we have the same amount of volunteers but they're only amount of volunteers but they're only amount of volunteers but they're only doing intermittent volunteering. So doing intermittent volunteering. So doing intermittent volunteering. So people are not able to get the benefit people are not able to get the benefit people are not able to get the benefit from having these like long form from having these like long form from having these like long form secondary ties to communities that they secondary ties to communities that they secondary ties to communities that they otherwise don't necessarily feel tied otherwise don't necessarily feel tied otherwise don't necessarily feel tied to. And what's so good about long form to. And what's so good about long form to. And what's so good about long form ties is it makes you buy in to the power ties is it makes you buy in to the power ties is it makes you buy in to the power of these communities and these of these communities and these of these communities and these institutions. And so I worry that people institutions. And so I worry that people institutions. And so I worry that people don't get like the long form view of don't get like the long form view of don't get like the long form view of just how precious and meaningful that just how precious and meaningful that just how precious and meaningful that their small acts of service are. their small acts of service are. their small acts of service are. >> Well said. >> Well said. >> Well said. Back to [snorts] your book again. Back to [snorts] your book again. Back to [snorts] your book again. Joyful. Anyway, there's a thing in the Joyful. Anyway, there's a thing in the Joyful. Anyway, there's a thing in the book that I just kind of leaped out at book that I just kind of leaped out at book that I just kind of leaped out at me. The idea of loving the people God me. The idea of loving the people God me. The idea of loving the people God puts in your way. And I was put in mind puts in your way. And I was put in mind puts in your way. And I was put in mind of that when you referenced of that when you referenced of that when you referenced unsolicited the uh election workers. Oh, unsolicited the uh election workers. Oh, unsolicited the uh election workers. Oh, yes. I've had this like little habit of yes. I've had this like little habit of yes. I've had this like little habit of going on these really strange adventures going on these really strange adventures going on these really strange adventures because I um one of the things that because I um one of the things that because I um one of the things that delights me is going to visit world's delights me is going to visit world's delights me is going to visit world's largest things or like so I have this largest things or like so I have this largest things or like so I have this app that I look at called Roadside app that I look at called Roadside app that I look at called Roadside America which works in Canada and the America which works in Canada and the America which works in Canada and the United States and you just like pick a United States and you just like pick a United States and you just like pick a random thing and go see it and had a random thing and go see it and had a random thing and go see it and had a couple extra hours after I had given a couple extra hours after I had given a couple extra hours after I had given a commencement address in rural commencement address in rural commencement address in rural Pennsylvania and I talked to this poor Pennsylvania and I talked to this poor Pennsylvania and I talked to this poor old man driver like and I mean I don't old man driver like and I mean I don't old man driver like and I mean I don't mean old like just normal mean old like just normal mean old like just normal table. Nice tablecloth. Go out to a four table. Nice tablecloth. Go out to a four table. Nice tablecloth. Go out to a four o'clock dinner old. I mean like o'clock dinner old. I mean like o'clock dinner old. I mean like translucent under sunlight. Old like translucent under sunlight. Old like translucent under sunlight. Old like should not be on the road. It is not should not be on the road. It is not should not be on the road. It is not safe for any of us old. And I took this safe for any of us old. And I took this safe for any of us old. And I took this poor sweet man on one of my little poor sweet man on one of my little poor sweet man on one of my little adventures. And we like I just adventures. And we like I just adventures. And we like I just boondoggled the crap out of that poor boondoggled the crap out of that poor boondoggled the crap out of that poor man. And we were like up and around and man. And we were like up and around and man. And we were like up and around and into a graveyard which he thought was to into a graveyard which he thought was to into a graveyard which he thought was to visit a member of my family which turns visit a member of my family which turns visit a member of my family which turns out I'd taken him to see what was out I'd taken him to see what was out I'd taken him to see what was supposed to be the most documented supposed to be the most documented supposed to be the most documented victim of spontaneous combustion which victim of spontaneous combustion which victim of spontaneous combustion which is of course not a real phenomenon but is of course not a real phenomenon but is of course not a real phenomenon but we were we were doing just ridiculous we were we were doing just ridiculous we were we were doing just ridiculous things and I was like this poor sweet things and I was like this poor sweet things and I was like this poor sweet man was so kind and told me about his man was so kind and told me about his man was so kind and told me about his unbelievable life which included taking unbelievable life which included taking unbelievable life which included taking care of so many foster kids and like care of so many foster kids and like care of so many foster kids and like just one of those hearts that like just one of those hearts that like just one of those hearts that like unfold like origami. for me where unfold like origami. for me where unfold like origami. for me where they're just like there's more and more they're just like there's more and more they're just like there's more and more and more in there and I was like wait a and more in there and I was like wait a and more in there and I was like wait a minute like whoa how do I be you like minute like whoa how do I be you like minute like whoa how do I be you like what's your best advice for being 84 and what's your best advice for being 84 and what's your best advice for being 84 and also why did you let me take you to do also why did you let me take you to do also why did you let me take you to do all these ridiculous things when you all these ridiculous things when you all these ridiculous things when you were supposed to just take me to the were supposed to just take me to the were supposed to just take me to the airport and [laughter] he said he was airport and [laughter] he said he was airport and [laughter] he said he was like look I just you know in referencing like look I just you know in referencing like look I just you know in referencing all the kids you taken care of and he all the kids you taken care of and he all the kids you taken care of and he just said you know when I felt my life just said you know when I felt my life just said you know when I felt my life going in a certain way going in a certain way going in a certain way like a a way I didn't want and I didn't like a a way I didn't want and I didn't like a a way I didn't want and I didn't plan. I just found that if I just start plan. I just found that if I just start plan. I just found that if I just start to love the people that God puts in my to love the people that God puts in my to love the people that God puts in my way, if I treat not just things way, if I treat not just things way, if I treat not just things randomly, it's not just things as they randomly, it's not just things as they randomly, it's not just things as they come, but if I treat them like an come, but if I treat them like an come, but if I treat them like an assignment, I will always be busy. Love assignment, I will always be busy. Love assignment, I will always be busy. Love as an assignment. And then today, my as an assignment. And then today, my as an assignment. And then today, my assignment was you. And I was like, you assignment was you. And I was like, you assignment was you. And I was like, you beautiful rees very impressionable man. beautiful rees very impressionable man. beautiful rees very impressionable man. I took from that like the intimacy I took from that like the intimacy I took from that like the intimacy between joy and service and joy and between joy and service and joy and between joy and service and joy and surprise and joy and letting new things surprise and joy and letting new things surprise and joy and letting new things open up your heart and delight you and open up your heart and delight you and open up your heart and delight you and that you could then become someone who that you could then become someone who that you could then become someone who is even more and more grateful for the is even more and more grateful for the is even more and more grateful for the things that you didn't choose. I thought things that you didn't choose. I thought things that you didn't choose. I thought that that love as an assignment is that that love as an assignment is that that love as an assignment is sounds like the the fastest superighway sounds like the the fastest superighway sounds like the the fastest superighway to joy that I had heard. It's really to joy that I had heard. It's really to joy that I had heard. It's really interesting because you know there is interesting because you know there is interesting because you know there is all this science around so-called micro all this science around so-called micro all this science around so-called micro interactions or Dr. Amir Lavine, the guy interactions or Dr. Amir Lavine, the guy interactions or Dr. Amir Lavine, the guy who wrote attached, calls them seamies, who wrote attached, calls them seamies, who wrote attached, calls them seamies, seemingly insignificant, minor seemingly insignificant, minor seemingly insignificant, minor interactions that these are like a if interactions that these are like a if interactions that these are like a if you're not paying attention to these, you're not paying attention to these, you're not paying attention to these, you're leaving a lot of money on the you're leaving a lot of money on the you're leaving a lot of money on the table happiness-wise. Like when we use table happiness-wise. Like when we use table happiness-wise. Like when we use the word random, we we mean it, I think, the word random, we we mean it, I think, the word random, we we mean it, I think, even if only mildly as a pjorative. But even if only mildly as a pjorative. But even if only mildly as a pjorative. But to think of it more as an assignment to think of it more as an assignment to think of it more as an assignment whether you believe in God or not like whether you believe in God or not like whether you believe in God or not like karma for those of us who are karma for those of us who are karma for those of us who are non-believers karma just as a law of non-believers karma just as a law of non-believers karma just as a law of cause and effect has placed whoever is cause and effect has placed whoever is cause and effect has placed whoever is in front of you you know whether they in front of you you know whether they in front of you you know whether they are clearly in in the case of your are clearly in in the case of your are clearly in in the case of your driver in need of like a do not driver in need of like a do not driver in need of like a do not resuscitate bracelet or whatever they're resuscitate bracelet or whatever they're resuscitate bracelet or whatever they're in front of you instead of treating them in front of you instead of treating them in front of you instead of treating them as like obstacles or random or something as like obstacles or random or something as like obstacles or random or something to be ignored like oh no this is this is to be ignored like oh no this is this is to be ignored like oh no this is this is the assignment that's a very interesting the assignment that's a very interesting the assignment that's a very interesting approach to life. approach to life. approach to life. >> When I see someone like that then >> When I see someone like that then >> When I see someone like that then respond to the world, there's a little respond to the world, there's a little respond to the world, there's a little bit more like pliancy in it. There's bit more like pliancy in it. There's bit more like pliancy in it. There's just a little more give. There's like just a little more give. There's like just a little more give. There's like that there's an openness to things that there's an openness to things that there's an openness to things not being not being not being like they were set on the calendar. And like they were set on the calendar. And like they were set on the calendar. And I am like as a as a person who is very I am like as a as a person who is very I am like as a as a person who is very defined by their calendar, who has defined by their calendar, who has defined by their calendar, who has plans, like I think that's an invitation plans, like I think that's an invitation plans, like I think that's an invitation to me to like let some things break in to me to like let some things break in to me to like let some things break in and be a gift. I think it also and be a gift. I think it also and be a gift. I think it also just reminds me that like when things go just reminds me that like when things go just reminds me that like when things go radically off course, one thing that is radically off course, one thing that is radically off course, one thing that is constantly constantly constantly meaningful to people is to be able to meaningful to people is to be able to meaningful to people is to be able to say, "Is there something here too for say, "Is there something here too for say, "Is there something here too for me?" even if nobody planned this and me?" even if nobody planned this and me?" even if nobody planned this and maybe nobody caused it, but is there maybe nobody caused it, but is there maybe nobody caused it, but is there still some small gift in here for me? still some small gift in here for me? still some small gift in here for me? >> And I've spent, you know, the last >> And I've spent, you know, the last >> And I've spent, you know, the last really like since my diagnosis like really like since my diagnosis like really like since my diagnosis like listening to people tell stories of a listening to people tell stories of a listening to people tell stories of a life they didn't choose. And one thing I life they didn't choose. And one thing I life they didn't choose. And one thing I have found over and over again is like have found over and over again is like have found over and over again is like without having to say it was worth it, without having to say it was worth it, without having to say it was worth it, can we still find these treasures in the can we still find these treasures in the can we still find these treasures in the dark? And I think knowing that joy is dark? And I think knowing that joy is dark? And I think knowing that joy is one of those things that we have an one of those things that we have an one of those things that we have an enormous capacity for as people, like a enormous capacity for as people, like a enormous capacity for as people, like a huge capacity to be joyful no matter huge capacity to be joyful no matter huge capacity to be joyful no matter what. That we're in fact psychologically what. That we're in fact psychologically what. That we're in fact psychologically like well primed for it. And that the like well primed for it. And that the like well primed for it. And that the world of course will give us endless world of course will give us endless world of course will give us endless opportunities to be disappointed and to opportunities to be disappointed and to opportunities to be disappointed and to be set back. But knowing that if even be set back. But knowing that if even be set back. But knowing that if even there joy can visit you, I think we there joy can visit you, I think we there joy can visit you, I think we would feel like a lot more peace in our would feel like a lot more peace in our would feel like a lot more peace in our hearts. Knowing that on this path we hearts. Knowing that on this path we hearts. Knowing that on this path we will find joy has found us again and will find joy has found us again and will find joy has found us again and again and again. again and again. again and again. >> That seems like a a rousing peroration >> That seems like a a rousing peroration >> That seems like a a rousing peroration on which we can probably close. That on which we can probably close. That on which we can probably close. That said, anything that we missed? said, anything that we missed? said, anything that we missed? >> No, I can read you texts from my mom >> No, I can read you texts from my mom >> No, I can read you texts from my mom though or just anything else going on in though or just anything else going on in though or just anything else going on in my life. my life. my life. >> Folks, we're out of time. We got to hit >> Folks, we're out of time. We got to hit >> Folks, we're out of time. We got to hit a commercial [laughter] break. Back into a commercial [laughter] break. Back into a commercial [laughter] break. Back into news anchor mode. news anchor mode. news anchor mode. Well, this was a total pleasure. Can you Well, this was a total pleasure. Can you Well, this was a total pleasure. Can you just remind everybody of the name of just remind everybody of the name of just remind everybody of the name of your book and also of the other books your book and also of the other books your book and also of the other books and of your podcast and of just like and of your podcast and of just like and of your podcast and of just like plug everything [laughter] please? plug everything [laughter] please? plug everything [laughter] please? >> Yeah, sure. Um, my book is called Joyful >> Yeah, sure. Um, my book is called Joyful >> Yeah, sure. Um, my book is called Joyful Anyway and I have a podcast called and a Anyway and I have a podcast called and a Anyway and I have a podcast called and a substack called Everything Happens. Not substack called Everything Happens. Not substack called Everything Happens. Not everything happens for a reason, just everything happens for a reason, just everything happens for a reason, just everything happens period. And if anyone everything happens period. And if anyone everything happens period. And if anyone wants to find me on socials, it's I'm at wants to find me on socials, it's I'm at wants to find me on socials, it's I'm at Katec Bowler. Katec Bowler. Katec Bowler. >> Prior books. Yeah, I'm most known for >> Prior books. Yeah, I'm most known for >> Prior books. Yeah, I'm most known for the book Everything Happens for a Reason the book Everything Happens for a Reason the book Everything Happens for a Reason and Other Lies I've Loved and a book and Other Lies I've Loved and a book and Other Lies I've Loved and a book called No Cure for Being Human. And I've called No Cure for Being Human. And I've called No Cure for Being Human. And I've written a lot of kind of devotionally written a lot of kind of devotionally written a lot of kind of devotionally books like day-to-day kind of things, books like day-to-day kind of things, books like day-to-day kind of things, little reflections called Have a little reflections called Have a little reflections called Have a Beautiful Terrible Day and one called Beautiful Terrible Day and one called Beautiful Terrible Day and one called Good Enough. And I think my favorite is Good Enough. And I think my favorite is Good Enough. And I think my favorite is the lives we actually have. the lives we actually have. the lives we actually have. >> Kate Bowler, great to [music] meet you. >> Kate Bowler, great to [music] meet you. >> Kate Bowler, great to [music] meet you. >> This was a lot of fun. >> This was a lot of fun. >> This was a lot of fun. >> Thank you so much to everybody who works >> Thank you so much to everybody who works >> Thank you so much to everybody who works so hard to make this show. 10% Happier so hard to make this show. 10% Happier so hard to make this show. 10% Happier is produced by Tara Anderson and Eleanor is produced by Tara Anderson and Eleanor is produced by Tara Anderson and Eleanor Vasili. Our recording and engineering is Vasili. Our recording and engineering is Vasili. Our recording and engineering is handled by the great folks over at Pod handled by the great folks over at Pod handled by the great folks over at Pod People. Lauren Smith is our managing People. Lauren Smith is our managing People. Lauren Smith is our managing producer. Marissa Schneiderman is our producer. Marissa Schneiderman is our producer. Marissa Schneiderman is our senior producer. DJ Cashmere is our senior producer. DJ Cashmere is our senior producer. DJ Cashmere is our executive producer. [music] And Nick executive producer. [music] And Nick executive producer. [music] And Nick Thorburn of the great indie rock band Thorburn of the great indie rock band Thorburn of the great indie rock band Islands wrote our theme. Also, one last Islands wrote our theme. Also, one last Islands wrote our theme. Also, one last thing before you go. Remember to [music] thing before you go. Remember to [music] thing before you go. Remember to [music] sign up for my new app which is called sign up for my new app which is called sign up for my new app which is called 10% with Dan Harris. You can sign 10% with Dan Harris. You can sign 10% with Dan Harris. 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