Y Combinator CEO on Founder Psychology in the Age of AI

We may never [music] achieve a utopia, We may never [music] achieve a utopia, but it is worthy and worth it to but it is worthy and worth it to but it is worthy and worth it to attempt. But everything that's [music] attempt. But everything that's [music] attempt. But everything that's [music] awesome in my life is kind of a cult. We awesome in my life is kind of a cult. We awesome in my life is kind of a cult. We had to go over to the Windows team. They had to go over to the Windows team. They had to go over to the Windows team. They wouldn't reply [music] to our emails. wouldn't reply [music] to our emails. wouldn't reply [music] to our emails. They wouldn't fix our bugs. And we had They wouldn't fix our bugs. And we had They wouldn't fix our bugs. And we had to go over there with a baseball bat. An to go over there with a baseball bat. An to go over there with a baseball bat. An org like Microsoft can't. [music] Yes, org like Microsoft can't. [music] Yes, org like Microsoft can't. [music] Yes, but a startup can. Yes, and every but a startup can. Yes, and every but a startup can. Yes, and every startup must. >> Gary, >> Gary, so good to have you, brother. Thank you so good to have you, brother. Thank you so good to have you, brother. Thank you so much for joining us today. Thanks for so much for joining us today. Thanks for so much for joining us today. Thanks for having me. having me. having me. >> Amazing, dude. Well, we're going to >> Amazing, dude. Well, we're going to >> Amazing, dude. Well, we're going to cover a bunch of the basics, then we're cover a bunch of the basics, then we're cover a bunch of the basics, then we're going to get into the advanced topics to going to get into the advanced topics to going to get into the advanced topics to make sure that we kind of match the make sure that we kind of match the make sure that we kind of match the curiosity and ambition of our audience. curiosity and ambition of our audience. curiosity and ambition of our audience. >> That sounds great. >> That sounds great. >> That sounds great. >> Does that work? Awesome. Well, dude, >> Does that work? Awesome. Well, dude, >> Does that work? Awesome. Well, dude, maybe talk to me a bit about the maybe talk to me a bit about the maybe talk to me a bit about the beginning of your journey 2003. You beginning of your journey 2003. You beginning of your journey 2003. You know, it feels like what's under know, it feels like what's under know, it feels like what's under discussed is founder psychology and then discussed is founder psychology and then discussed is founder psychology and then sort of Silicon Valley culture and how sort of Silicon Valley culture and how sort of Silicon Valley culture and how the two are connected. What did it feel the two are connected. What did it feel the two are connected. What did it feel like when you first got in the game back like when you first got in the game back like when you first got in the game back in 2003 coming out of Stanford? in 2003 coming out of Stanford? in 2003 coming out of Stanford? >> I guess I wanted to work at startups, >> I guess I wanted to work at startups, >> I guess I wanted to work at startups, but uh 2003 was funny in that like web but uh 2003 was funny in that like web but uh 2003 was funny in that like web 1.0 had just ended. Like the you know, 1.0 had just ended. Like the you know, 1.0 had just ended. Like the you know, Nasdaq had just crashed and uh actually Nasdaq had just crashed and uh actually Nasdaq had just crashed and uh actually there were no jobs that I could even there were no jobs that I could even there were no jobs that I could even find in the Bay Area other than, you find in the Bay Area other than, you find in the Bay Area other than, you know, working at Gap IT. know, working at Gap IT. know, working at Gap IT. And so the two job offers I had were uh And so the two job offers I had were uh And so the two job offers I had were uh Microsoft for Windows Mobile, which I Microsoft for Windows Mobile, which I Microsoft for Windows Mobile, which I was pretty excited about, or Expedia. was pretty excited about, or Expedia. was pretty excited about, or Expedia. >> Okay. >> Okay. >> Okay. >> Yeah, I you know, I had student loans >> Yeah, I you know, I had student loans >> Yeah, I you know, I had student loans and I you know, while I wanted to start and I you know, while I wanted to start and I you know, while I wanted to start a company, I just you know, felt like I a company, I just you know, felt like I a company, I just you know, felt like I needed to get a job and then actually needed to get a job and then actually needed to get a job and then actually there were no jobs in the Bay. So, it's there were no jobs in the Bay. So, it's there were no jobs in the Bay. So, it's like kind of hard to believe actually like kind of hard to believe actually like kind of hard to believe actually uh that moment was so bleak. And then uh that moment was so bleak. And then uh that moment was so bleak. And then right before web 2.0, right before web 2.0, right before web 2.0, >> it felt like it might have been the end >> it felt like it might have been the end >> it felt like it might have been the end of tech, huh? of tech, huh? of tech, huh? >> Right, a little bit. Yeah, that's what >> Right, a little bit. Yeah, that's what >> Right, a little bit. Yeah, that's what that was the vibe. And then you know, at that was the vibe. And then you know, at that was the vibe. And then you know, at the end of the day like the end of the day like the end of the day like that's the boom, that's the bust. Like that's the boom, that's the bust. Like that's the boom, that's the bust. Like these things sort of happen over and these things sort of happen over and these things sort of happen over and over again. over again. over again. >> So, at the time did it feel high status >> So, at the time did it feel high status >> So, at the time did it feel high status to work in tech or on startups? to work in tech or on startups? to work in tech or on startups? >> Not at all. I mean, you know, it sort of >> Not at all. I mean, you know, it sort of >> Not at all. I mean, you know, it sort of lost to the sands of time, but lost to the sands of time, but lost to the sands of time, but um um um I was still excited about tech though. I was still excited about tech though. I was still excited about tech though. Um Um Um you know, I had done a lot of web you know, I had done a lot of web you know, I had done a lot of web programming and then one of my regrets programming and then one of my regrets programming and then one of my regrets actually was um I was sort of chasing actually was um I was sort of chasing actually was um I was sort of chasing what was hot instead of what was clearly what was hot instead of what was clearly what was hot instead of what was clearly the thing I knew. Mark Zuckerberg was the thing I knew. Mark Zuckerberg was the thing I knew. Mark Zuckerberg was probably doing Facemash um around then probably doing Facemash um around then probably doing Facemash um around then around 2003 and then Facebook didn't around 2003 and then Facebook didn't around 2003 and then Facebook didn't even exist yet um even exist yet um even exist yet um and I was getting out of web programming and I was getting out of web programming and I was getting out of web programming at exactly the wrong time. at exactly the wrong time. at exactly the wrong time. >> Because it felt like that was the smart >> Because it felt like that was the smart >> Because it felt like that was the smart thing to do. thing to do. thing to do. >> Yeah, it was smart and you know, I mean >> Yeah, it was smart and you know, I mean >> Yeah, it was smart and you know, I mean this is true now. Um this is true now. Um this is true now. Um you know, in in front of all these you know, in in front of all these you know, in in front of all these people at Startup School, uh you know, I people at Startup School, uh you know, I people at Startup School, uh you know, I sort of started this don't LARP sort of started this don't LARP sort of started this don't LARP >> Right. >> Right. >> Right. >> um meme. >> um meme. >> um meme. >> I saw that. >> I saw that. >> I saw that. >> Uh but I think like that's >> Uh but I think like that's >> Uh but I think like that's that's embedded in this idea that like that's embedded in this idea that like that's embedded in this idea that like you should just be earnest you should just be earnest you should just be earnest >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> and then you shouldn't follow what the >> and then you shouldn't follow what the >> and then you shouldn't follow what the crowd is saying, right? Like at that crowd is saying, right? Like at that crowd is saying, right? Like at that moment people said the web was dead, but moment people said the web was dead, but moment people said the web was dead, but that was sort of the perfect time to that was sort of the perfect time to that was sort of the perfect time to work on web and social and things like work on web and social and things like work on web and social and things like that. Um and you know, I didn't do it. I that. Um and you know, I didn't do it. I that. Um and you know, I didn't do it. I I ran off and said like I ran off and said like I ran off and said like "Oh, well, the next hot thing will be "Oh, well, the next hot thing will be "Oh, well, the next hot thing will be mobile." So I wanted to work at Windows mobile." So I wanted to work at Windows mobile." So I wanted to work at Windows Mobile, which was true, but um why I Mobile, which was true, but um why I Mobile, which was true, but um why I give up like the thing that could have give up like the thing that could have give up like the thing that could have been the next thing. been the next thing. been the next thing. >> What I love about what you're saying >> What I love about what you're saying >> What I love about what you're saying though is often when we hear earnest, we though is often when we hear earnest, we though is often when we hear earnest, we think naive, but actually what it sounds think naive, but actually what it sounds think naive, but actually what it sounds like you're saying is there's like like you're saying is there's like like you're saying is there's like earnestness is a sort of result of earnestness is a sort of result of earnestness is a sort of result of maturity and courage. maturity and courage. maturity and courage. >> Courage is actually I think >> Courage is actually I think >> Courage is actually I think the right thing. the right thing. the right thing. >> Yes. >> Yes. >> Yes. >> Like if you know something that's sort >> Like if you know something that's sort >> Like if you know something that's sort of if someone just like comes and of if someone just like comes and of if someone just like comes and contradicts you or even if like contradicts you or even if like contradicts you or even if like a blog post or like someone on Twitter a blog post or like someone on Twitter a blog post or like someone on Twitter uh contradicts you, uh contradicts you, uh contradicts you, >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> you're like, well, I I don't I don't >> you're like, well, I I don't I don't >> you're like, well, I I don't I don't agree with that because I believe my own agree with that because I believe my own agree with that because I believe my own direct experience. direct experience. direct experience. >> Yes. >> Yes. >> Yes. >> I know that I'm not a time traveler >> I know that I'm not a time traveler >> I know that I'm not a time traveler because if I was a time traveler, I because if I was a time traveler, I because if I was a time traveler, I would have I would have sent a message would have I would have sent a message would have I would have sent a message back to myself and said, "Just stay on back to myself and said, "Just stay on back to myself and said, "Just stay on working on web stuff." Like you working on web stuff." Like you working on web stuff." Like you literally have literally have literally have um 5 years of experience on top of um 5 years of experience on top of um 5 years of experience on top of everyone else. Like you could do an end everyone else. Like you could do an end everyone else. Like you could do an end run around everyone. Like you could have run around everyone. Like you could have run around everyone. Like you could have built like any kind of social software. built like any kind of social software. built like any kind of social software. >> Yes. >> Yes. >> Yes. >> But instead I was, um, you know, I was >> But instead I was, um, you know, I was >> But instead I was, um, you know, I was 22. So I was like being whipped around 22. So I was like being whipped around 22. So I was like being whipped around by, uh, whatever I could read in The by, uh, whatever I could read in The by, uh, whatever I could read in The Wall Street Journal. And, you know, I Wall Street Journal. And, you know, I Wall Street Journal. And, you know, I the the classic question I'm sure you the the classic question I'm sure you the the classic question I'm sure you get that, you know, all investors get get that, you know, all investors get get that, you know, all investors get all the time is, "What's hot and what all the time is, "What's hot and what all the time is, "What's hot and what should I work on?" should I work on?" should I work on?" >> Right. >> Right. >> Right. >> And that's the wrong question to ask. >> And that's the wrong question to ask. >> And that's the wrong question to ask. Like the right question is like, "What Like the right question is like, "What Like the right question is like, "What are you interested in? What do you know are you interested in? What do you know are you interested in? What do you know uniquely?" And so I was that's like, you uniquely?" And so I was that's like, you uniquely?" And so I was that's like, you know, one of a great many mistakes I know, one of a great many mistakes I know, one of a great many mistakes I made in my career. I feel like I'm a made in my career. I feel like I'm a made in my career. I feel like I'm a little bit, uh, doomed to be the first little bit, uh, doomed to be the first little bit, uh, doomed to be the first principle storyteller of, uh, all the principle storyteller of, uh, all the principle storyteller of, uh, all the mistakes that I made mistakes that I made mistakes that I made >> Well, I think that it's it's very >> Well, I think that it's it's very >> Well, I think that it's it's very inspiring for founders to hear your own inspiring for founders to hear your own inspiring for founders to hear your own journey and your own mistakes. And then journey and your own mistakes. And then journey and your own mistakes. And then not feel so bad about the ones that not feel so bad about the ones that not feel so bad about the ones that we've all made along the way. we've all made along the way. we've all made along the way. >> I mean, maybe talk about the culture of >> I mean, maybe talk about the culture of >> I mean, maybe talk about the culture of Silicon Valley today. You know, on one Silicon Valley today. You know, on one Silicon Valley today. You know, on one hand maybe it was despondent 20 years hand maybe it was despondent 20 years hand maybe it was despondent 20 years ago. It's crazy to think that was just ago. It's crazy to think that was just ago. It's crazy to think that was just 23 years ago that you're talking about. 23 years ago that you're talking about. 23 years ago that you're talking about. Um, now you think we would all be Um, now you think we would all be Um, now you think we would all be incredibly elated, yet there's this incredibly elated, yet there's this incredibly elated, yet there's this undercurrent. Maybe it's the LARPing undercurrent. Maybe it's the LARPing undercurrent. Maybe it's the LARPing thing that you mentioned. You know, it's thing that you mentioned. You know, it's thing that you mentioned. You know, it's being outside of the light cone, the being outside of the light cone, the being outside of the light cone, the permanent underclass. Where does that permanent underclass. Where does that permanent underclass. Where does that come from? Do you think there's any come from? Do you think there's any come from? Do you think there's any truth in it? Talk through that. truth in it? Talk through that. truth in it? Talk through that. >> I mean, I get it. Like there's just more >> I mean, I get it. Like there's just more >> I mean, I get it. Like there's just more competition than ever. And then, um, competition than ever. And then, um, competition than ever. And then, um, I think maybe it's just that we're I think maybe it's just that we're I think maybe it's just that we're spending too much time in distribution. spending too much time in distribution. spending too much time in distribution. I think Chris Dixon talks about this all I think Chris Dixon talks about this all I think Chris Dixon talks about this all the time where, um, the time where, um, the time where, um, you know, you're in the idea maze, but you know, you're in the idea maze, but you know, you're in the idea maze, but you know, the cool parts of the idea you know, the cool parts of the idea you know, the cool parts of the idea maze are like the weird fringe parts, maze are like the weird fringe parts, maze are like the weird fringe parts, actually. It's always like, uh, what is actually. It's always like, uh, what is actually. It's always like, uh, what is a toy? Like and that's the pattern in a toy? Like and that's the pattern in a toy? Like and that's the pattern in Silicon Valley over and over again that Silicon Valley over and over again that Silicon Valley over and over again that bears repeating, right? bears repeating, right? bears repeating, right? >> Yes. >> Yes. >> Yes. >> Like the idea that you could have a >> Like the idea that you could have a >> Like the idea that you could have a computer on every desk in every home. computer on every desk in every home. computer on every desk in every home. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Uh, today is like, of course, like >> Uh, today is like, of course, like >> Uh, today is like, of course, like that's what's come to pass. But that's what's come to pass. But that's what's come to pass. But >> the people who created that thing, they >> the people who created that thing, they >> the people who created that thing, they were fringe weirdo punks, actually. were fringe weirdo punks, actually. were fringe weirdo punks, actually. >> Yes. >> Yes. >> Yes. >> Uh >> Uh >> Uh >> They were outsiders. I mean, Homebrew >> They were outsiders. I mean, Homebrew >> They were outsiders. I mean, Homebrew Computer Club was not where you were Computer Club was not where you were Computer Club was not where you were getting laid. getting laid. getting laid. >> Yeah. That's right. >> Yeah. That's right. >> Yeah. That's right. >> [laughter] >> [laughter] >> [laughter] >> You You just were like following this >> You You just were like following this >> You You just were like following this weird obsession that, you know, actually weird obsession that, you know, actually weird obsession that, you know, actually I want my own computer. I want my own computer. I want my own computer. >> And I think Chris has said this, too. I >> And I think Chris has said this, too. I >> And I think Chris has said this, too. I think a good measure of how interesting think a good measure of how interesting think a good measure of how interesting the thing is is can you find the edge? the thing is is can you find the edge? the thing is is can you find the edge? >> Mhm. >> Mhm. >> Mhm. >> And for the most interesting things, you >> And for the most interesting things, you >> And for the most interesting things, you typically can't. Even if you find the typically can't. Even if you find the typically can't. Even if you find the edge of the conversation, you can't find edge of the conversation, you can't find edge of the conversation, you can't find the intellectual edge. Which I think is the intellectual edge. Which I think is the intellectual edge. Which I think is a very good sign. I mean, I had this a very good sign. I mean, I had this a very good sign. I mean, I had this growing up in the '80s, maybe you had growing up in the '80s, maybe you had growing up in the '80s, maybe you had this, too. There was sort of one way to this, too. There was sort of one way to this, too. There was sort of one way to be cool in grade school, and probably in be cool in grade school, and probably in be cool in grade school, and probably in high school, and maybe when you got to high school, and maybe when you got to high school, and maybe when you got to college, you kind of found your people. college, you kind of found your people. college, you kind of found your people. And now I think one of the miracles of And now I think one of the miracles of And now I think one of the miracles of being internet native generation is that being internet native generation is that being internet native generation is that people find their people much sooner. people find their people much sooner. people find their people much sooner. You find your people on Reddit, you find You find your people on Reddit, you find You find your people on Reddit, you find your people on, you know, X or Insta or your people on, you know, X or Insta or your people on, you know, X or Insta or whatever your network is. whatever your network is. whatever your network is. >> Oh, yeah. >> Oh, yeah. >> Oh, yeah. I mean, that's the coolest thing today. I mean, that's the coolest thing today. I mean, that's the coolest thing today. Like, there's probably a subreddit, Like, there's probably a subreddit, Like, there's probably a subreddit, there's probably um there's probably um there's probably um a part of X, like, you know, some part a part of X, like, you know, some part a part of X, like, you know, some part of teapot that is uh you know, this part of teapot that is uh you know, this part of teapot that is uh you know, this part of Twitter that um of Twitter that um of Twitter that um is just your set of super weird, but is just your set of super weird, but is just your set of super weird, but like really, really into that thing. like really, really into that thing. like really, really into that thing. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> And you can find your tribe more or less >> And you can find your tribe more or less >> And you can find your tribe more or less instantly. instantly. instantly. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. Yeah, can you talk a bit about the Yeah, can you talk a bit about the Yeah, can you talk a bit about the culture of Silicon Valley? It felt like culture of Silicon Valley? It felt like culture of Silicon Valley? It felt like 10 years ago it was sort of, you know, 10 years ago it was sort of, you know, 10 years ago it was sort of, you know, it was lower status to work on something it was lower status to work on something it was lower status to work on something like Palantir, either because people like Palantir, either because people like Palantir, either because people were nervous about doing things that were nervous about doing things that were nervous about doing things that were too much in the national interest, were too much in the national interest, were too much in the national interest, or because it was was sort of dismissed or because it was was sort of dismissed or because it was was sort of dismissed as a services business. Now, it's as a services business. Now, it's as a services business. Now, it's clearly one of the most important clearly one of the most important clearly one of the most important companies in the world with one of the companies in the world with one of the companies in the world with one of the most compelling CEOs. You were early most compelling CEOs. You were early most compelling CEOs. You were early there. What did it feel like? Why did there. What did it feel like? Why did there. What did it feel like? Why did you do it? you do it? you do it? >> Yeah. I mean, uh I have a worse story >> Yeah. I mean, uh I have a worse story >> Yeah. I mean, uh I have a worse story than that. I have another mistake story. than that. I have another mistake story. than that. I have another mistake story. >> Okay. >> Okay. >> Okay. >> Where um >> Where um >> Where um uh Joe Lonsdale and Stephen Cohen uh uh Joe Lonsdale and Stephen Cohen uh uh Joe Lonsdale and Stephen Cohen uh were my fraternity brothers at Stanford, were my fraternity brothers at Stanford, were my fraternity brothers at Stanford, Phi Psi. Phi Psi. Phi Psi. >> Uh >> Uh >> Uh and then I had a job, and they were like and then I had a job, and they were like and then I had a job, and they were like interns at Peter Thiel's hedge fund. interns at Peter Thiel's hedge fund. interns at Peter Thiel's hedge fund. >> Okay. >> Okay. >> Okay. >> And uh Peter has this thing where you're >> And uh Peter has this thing where you're >> And uh Peter has this thing where you're supposed to like, you know, when you supposed to like, you know, when you supposed to like, you know, when you start a thing, you write down on a piece start a thing, you write down on a piece start a thing, you write down on a piece of paper all the smartest people of paper all the smartest people of paper all the smartest people who you need to go and hire and like get who you need to go and hire and like get who you need to go and hire and like get to join you. And so to join you. And so to join you. And so they said, "Oh, both of them were like, they said, "Oh, both of them were like, they said, "Oh, both of them were like, oh, let's go get Gary. He's up in oh, let's go get Gary. He's up in oh, let's go get Gary. He's up in Seattle." Like they flew me down to have Seattle." Like they flew me down to have Seattle." Like they flew me down to have dinner with him. dinner with him. dinner with him. >> And he said, you know, Peter said, "I'm >> And he said, you know, Peter said, "I'm >> And he said, you know, Peter said, "I'm so sure this is the right thing for you. so sure this is the right thing for you. so sure this is the right thing for you. Like here's a check for 70 grand." That Like here's a check for 70 grand." That Like here's a check for 70 grand." That was how much I made at Microsoft at the was how much I made at Microsoft at the was how much I made at Microsoft at the time. time. time. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> And I said, "Thank you very much, Mr. >> And I said, "Thank you very much, Mr. >> And I said, "Thank you very much, Mr. Thiel, but I might get promoted to level Thiel, but I might get promoted to level Thiel, but I might get promoted to level 60 this year." 60 this year." 60 this year." >> Oh, no. >> Oh, no. >> Oh, no. >> Which I did. >> Which I did. >> Which I did. >> [laughter] >> [laughter] >> [laughter] >> But I think it's That was like a $2 >> But I think it's That was like a $2 >> But I think it's That was like a $2 billion to $4 billion mistake at this billion to $4 billion mistake at this billion to $4 billion mistake at this point. point. point. >> Oh, no. >> Oh, no. >> Oh, no. >> And I think about it all the time. Like >> And I think about it all the time. Like >> And I think about it all the time. Like basically, I did the same thing again. basically, I did the same thing again. basically, I did the same thing again. It was like the same thing that got me It was like the same thing that got me It was like the same thing that got me to go work on Windows Mobile instead of to go work on Windows Mobile instead of to go work on Windows Mobile instead of >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> um just staying on the thing that I knew >> um just staying on the thing that I knew >> um just staying on the thing that I knew and loved. and loved. and loved. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Uh it happened again. I was like, well, >> Uh it happened again. I was like, well, >> Uh it happened again. I was like, well, I don't know, you know, I was working I don't know, you know, I was working I don't know, you know, I was working backwards from the map instead of backwards from the map instead of backwards from the map instead of looking down at the territory and saying looking down at the territory and saying looking down at the territory and saying like, oh, well, these are the smartest like, oh, well, these are the smartest like, oh, well, these are the smartest people I know. Like Joe and Stefan were people I know. Like Joe and Stefan were people I know. Like Joe and Stefan were among the smartest people I'd ever met. among the smartest people I'd ever met. among the smartest people I'd ever met. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Um and you know, if not them, like who >> Um and you know, if not them, like who >> Um and you know, if not them, like who was I going to, you know, be a was I going to, you know, be a was I going to, you know, be a co-founder with? Like it just, you know, co-founder with? Like it just, you know, co-founder with? Like it just, you know, the universe was saying like this is the the universe was saying like this is the the universe was saying like this is the thing you need to do. But all I cared thing you need to do. But all I cared thing you need to do. But all I cared about was what was cool, what was hot, about was what was cool, what was hot, about was what was cool, what was hot, what would a really good investor say? what would a really good investor say? what would a really good investor say? >> Um >> Um >> Um >> And the thing is like they're like going >> And the thing is like they're like going >> And the thing is like they're like going off of uh a map. off of uh a map. off of uh a map. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> And like you can see, you can look down, >> And like you can see, you can look down, >> And like you can see, you can look down, you can look around, you can like have you can look around, you can like have you can look around, you can like have first principles knowledge of what's first principles knowledge of what's first principles knowledge of what's going on. going on. going on. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Um and you know, what they were doing is >> Um and you know, what they were doing is >> Um and you know, what they were doing is like they were going to governments and like they were going to governments and like they were going to governments and three-letter agencies. And it was clear three-letter agencies. And it was clear three-letter agencies. And it was clear that um the things that really good that um the things that really good that um the things that really good computer scientists in Palo Alto could computer scientists in Palo Alto could computer scientists in Palo Alto could do and create do and create do and create >> Yes. >> Yes. >> Yes. >> uh DC did not have access to that. And >> uh DC did not have access to that. And >> uh DC did not have access to that. And you know, it's funny how much that you know, it's funny how much that you know, it's funny how much that thing that they had identified like thing that they had identified like thing that they had identified like Peter and Joe and Stefan and later Alex Peter and Joe and Stefan and later Alex Peter and Joe and Stefan and later Alex Karp identified. Karp identified. Karp identified. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Um >> Um >> Um that like runs through almost everything that like runs through almost everything that like runs through almost everything that we do that we do that we do in Silicon Valley. It's just like uh the in Silicon Valley. It's just like uh the in Silicon Valley. It's just like uh the future is already here. It's not evenly future is already here. It's not evenly future is already here. It's not evenly distributed. And then that's where like distributed. And then that's where like distributed. And then that's where like first principles knowledge or like just first principles knowledge or like just first principles knowledge or like just viewing the world as a scientist is viewing the world as a scientist is viewing the world as a scientist is actually very useful. actually very useful. actually very useful. >> Yes. >> Yes. >> Yes. >> Um and what a scientist does is, you >> Um and what a scientist does is, you >> Um and what a scientist does is, you know, sure there's published papers, but know, sure there's published papers, but know, sure there's published papers, but you go and you examine all the truths. you go and you examine all the truths. you go and you examine all the truths. And what you find is that once you go And what you find is that once you go And what you find is that once you go down into the experiment or you go down down into the experiment or you go down down into the experiment or you go down and talk to the first party people who and talk to the first party people who and talk to the first party people who are experiencing a thing experiencing a are experiencing a thing experiencing a are experiencing a thing experiencing a thing. thing. thing. >> Yes. >> Yes. >> Yes. >> Um >> Um >> Um then you learn secret knowledge. Then then you learn secret knowledge. Then then you learn secret knowledge. Then you have gnosis. And so, uh you know, you have gnosis. And so, uh you know, you have gnosis. And so, uh you know, from Palantir I definitely learned that from Palantir I definitely learned that from Palantir I definitely learned that everything that's awesome in my life is everything that's awesome in my life is everything that's awesome in my life is kind of a cult. kind of a cult. kind of a cult. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> That starts with some sort of truth or >> That starts with some sort of truth or >> That starts with some sort of truth or belief that flies in the face of an belief that flies in the face of an belief that flies in the face of an orthodoxy, which is very punk actually. orthodoxy, which is very punk actually. orthodoxy, which is very punk actually. >> Yes. Yes. Totally dude, that's very Rick >> Yes. Yes. Totally dude, that's very Rick >> Yes. Yes. Totally dude, that's very Rick Rubin would approve. Rubin would approve. Rubin would approve. >> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. >> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. >> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. >> Yeah, well, actually what I love about >> Yeah, well, actually what I love about >> Yeah, well, actually what I love about you're saying is that there's a you're saying is that there's a you're saying is that there's a beautiful truth in the fact that you've beautiful truth in the fact that you've beautiful truth in the fact that you've talked through some of these maybe talked through some of these maybe talked through some of these maybe tragic misses, but you know, the lessons tragic misses, but you know, the lessons tragic misses, but you know, the lessons are courage, the lessons are are courage, the lessons are are courage, the lessons are earnestness, right? The lessons are when earnestness, right? The lessons are when earnestness, right? The lessons are when your instincts are pulling you to work your instincts are pulling you to work your instincts are pulling you to work with a set of people. So so maybe talk a with a set of people. So so maybe talk a with a set of people. So so maybe talk a little bit about, you know, we talk a little bit about, you know, we talk a little bit about, you know, we talk a lot about how Silicon Valley and the lot about how Silicon Valley and the lot about how Silicon Valley and the magic is it takes outsiders and turns magic is it takes outsiders and turns magic is it takes outsiders and turns them into insiders. And I feel like YC them into insiders. And I feel like YC them into insiders. And I feel like YC is the ultimate distillation of that. is the ultimate distillation of that. is the ultimate distillation of that. You know, you go from being two founders You know, you go from being two founders You know, you go from being two founders perhaps from a foreign country to two perhaps from a foreign country to two perhaps from a foreign country to two people with YC on their LinkedIn and people with YC on their LinkedIn and people with YC on their LinkedIn and everybody now knows what that means. everybody now knows what that means. everybody now knows what that means. >> Totally. >> Totally. >> Totally. >> So talk about how that happens. Is it a >> So talk about how that happens. Is it a >> So talk about how that happens. Is it a process? Is it a mindset? And how has it process? Is it a mindset? And how has it process? Is it a mindset? And how has it changed over the years? changed over the years? changed over the years? >> Um I mean, I have to credit Paul Graham >> Um I mean, I have to credit Paul Graham >> Um I mean, I have to credit Paul Graham and Jessica Livingston and the original and Jessica Livingston and the original and Jessica Livingston and the original founders including Trevor Blackwell and founders including Trevor Blackwell and founders including Trevor Blackwell and Robert Morris. I mean, Robert Morris. I mean, Robert Morris. I mean, uh what Paul and Jessica figured out was uh what Paul and Jessica figured out was uh what Paul and Jessica figured out was that there are lots and lots of really that there are lots and lots of really that there are lots and lots of really smart people who do not get access um to smart people who do not get access um to smart people who do not get access um to Silicon Valley. I mean, I think in the Silicon Valley. I mean, I think in the Silicon Valley. I mean, I think in the past you had to like go to the right past you had to like go to the right past you had to like go to the right schools, you had to know the right schools, you had to know the right schools, you had to know the right people sort of and if you didn't you'd people sort of and if you didn't you'd people sort of and if you didn't you'd come to Silicon Valley and you'd try to come to Silicon Valley and you'd try to come to Silicon Valley and you'd try to get invited to the right parties. There get invited to the right parties. There get invited to the right parties. There was like a social network that you had was like a social network that you had was like a social network that you had to crack. Um and then to crack. Um and then to crack. Um and then uh that YC we have a pejorative for that uh that YC we have a pejorative for that uh that YC we have a pejorative for that whole scene which it's like we call them whole scene which it's like we call them whole scene which it's like we call them scenester's actually. Uh which is I mean scenester's actually. Uh which is I mean scenester's actually. Uh which is I mean it's sort of a nod to like what you used it's sort of a nod to like what you used it's sort of a nod to like what you used to have to do. Um and some people still to have to do. Um and some people still to have to do. Um and some people still believe that's like how you do it. believe that's like how you do it. believe that's like how you do it. All they did was say, you know what? All they did was say, you know what? All they did was say, you know what? Like here's a here's a website, here's Like here's a here's a website, here's Like here's a here's a website, here's 12 questions, later we added like a 12 questions, later we added like a 12 questions, later we added like a 1-minute video. And uh people on the 1-minute video. And uh people on the 1-minute video. And uh people on the other end who are builders are going to other end who are builders are going to other end who are builders are going to try to give you a fair shake. And so try to give you a fair shake. And so try to give you a fair shake. And so today we have uh you know, 16 equal today we have uh you know, 16 equal today we have uh you know, 16 equal partners including myself and all of us partners including myself and all of us partners including myself and all of us like went through YC and had successful like went through YC and had successful like went through YC and had successful outcomes and um outcomes and um outcomes and um I think there's something valuable to I think there's something valuable to I think there's something valuable to that. They just, you know, welcome to that. They just, you know, welcome to that. They just, you know, welcome to welcome to Silicon Valley. We just um welcome to Silicon Valley. We just um welcome to Silicon Valley. We just um celebrated uh 7,000 people coming to San celebrated uh 7,000 people coming to San celebrated uh 7,000 people coming to San Francisco. The majority of them the very Francisco. The majority of them the very Francisco. The majority of them the very first time they came it's, you know, our first time they came it's, you know, our first time they came it's, you know, our startup school every single year. startup school every single year. startup school every single year. >> So incredible. >> So incredible. >> So incredible. >> We kind of call it like uh birthright >> We kind of call it like uh birthright >> We kind of call it like uh birthright but for tech. but for tech. but for tech. >> It looked like the Roman Colosseum, >> It looked like the Roman Colosseum, >> It looked like the Roman Colosseum, dude. dude. dude. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> It was amazing. >> It was amazing. >> It was amazing. >> Yeah. So I you know, I think that that's >> Yeah. So I you know, I think that that's >> Yeah. So I you know, I think that that's the coolest thing about Silicon Valley. the coolest thing about Silicon Valley. the coolest thing about Silicon Valley. Like you sort of it sort of doesn't Like you sort of it sort of doesn't Like you sort of it sort of doesn't matter where you're from or who you are. matter where you're from or who you are. matter where you're from or who you are. It just actually matters what your ideas It just actually matters what your ideas It just actually matters what your ideas are and can you execute. The only other are and can you execute. The only other are and can you execute. The only other thing that I'd say like YC people get thing that I'd say like YC people get thing that I'd say like YC people get that a lot of people don't get is um a that a lot of people don't get is um a that a lot of people don't get is um a community of people who you can be super community of people who you can be super community of people who you can be super real with. It's like if you go to a real with. It's like if you go to a real with. It's like if you go to a TechCrunch event, you look to the left, TechCrunch event, you look to the left, TechCrunch event, you look to the left, you look to the right and it's like are you look to the right and it's like are you look to the right and it's like are Are really going to be able to tell them Are really going to be able to tell them Are really going to be able to tell them anything real? Like you're going to hold anything real? Like you're going to hold anything real? Like you're going to hold your cards pretty close and uh you know, your cards pretty close and uh you know, your cards pretty close and uh you know, you're going to say how you're doing and you're going to say how you're doing and you're going to say how you're doing and they're going to say killing it and then they're going to say killing it and then they're going to say killing it and then they're going to ask back and like oh, they're going to ask back and like oh, they're going to ask back and like oh, I'm also killing it. I mean, honestly I'm also killing it. I mean, honestly I'm also killing it. I mean, honestly founders founders founders really need that. Like it's very really need that. Like it's very really need that. Like it's very solitary. It's um you know, on the day solitary. It's um you know, on the day solitary. It's um you know, on the day that you lose your best customer, on the that you lose your best customer, on the that you lose your best customer, on the day that your best engineer quits, like day that your best engineer quits, like day that your best engineer quits, like who you going to call? And if you have who you going to call? And if you have who you going to call? And if you have no one like no one like no one like >> The day your co-founder loses hope and >> The day your co-founder loses hope and >> The day your co-founder loses hope and you're not allowed to. you're not allowed to. you're not allowed to. >> Right. >> Right. >> Right. >> That's a tough day, you know? >> That's a tough day, you know? >> That's a tough day, you know? >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Talk about the historical upside sort of >> Talk about the historical upside sort of >> Talk about the historical upside sort of surprises of like founder types, surprises of like founder types, surprises of like founder types, business types, and the downside business types, and the downside business types, and the downside surprises. What have you learned through surprises. What have you learned through surprises. What have you learned through YC? YC? YC? >> I mean, what's we're sort of in the >> I mean, what's we're sort of in the >> I mean, what's we're sort of in the middle of a big transformation now, I middle of a big transformation now, I middle of a big transformation now, I think. think. think. >> Okay. >> Okay. >> Okay. >> Um for the longest time we really really >> Um for the longest time we really really >> Um for the longest time we really really believed that you needed co-founders and believed that you needed co-founders and believed that you needed co-founders and I think that everything else being I think that everything else being I think that everything else being equal, having co-founders is net really equal, having co-founders is net really equal, having co-founders is net really really good. really good. really good. >> Totally. >> Totally. >> Totally. >> Um I think some of this is like the >> Um I think some of this is like the >> Um I think some of this is like the beginning of a cult. beginning of a cult. beginning of a cult. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Like you know, a cult where there's only >> Like you know, a cult where there's only >> Like you know, a cult where there's only one person and that person can't one person and that person can't one person and that person can't convince anyone else to join them is convince anyone else to join them is convince anyone else to join them is like you know, worse than a cult. It's like you know, worse than a cult. It's like you know, worse than a cult. It's just like a crazy person actually. just like a crazy person actually. just like a crazy person actually. >> Right, right, right. >> Right, right, right. >> Right, right, right. >> Um I think this is like an old Derek >> Um I think this is like an old Derek >> Um I think this is like an old Derek Sivers TED Talk, right? Where it's like Sivers TED Talk, right? Where it's like Sivers TED Talk, right? Where it's like uh yeah, one person dancing in a field uh yeah, one person dancing in a field uh yeah, one person dancing in a field is a crazy person. is a crazy person. is a crazy person. >> Yes. >> Yes. >> Yes. >> But um >> But um >> But um you know, it's really the second person you know, it's really the second person you know, it's really the second person >> [laughter] >> [laughter] >> [laughter] >> who like gets up >> who like gets up >> who like gets up >> That's right. >> That's right. >> That's right. >> and joins that person like then you just >> and joins that person like then you just >> and joins that person like then you just what you find is you know, suddenly 10 what you find is you know, suddenly 10 what you find is you know, suddenly 10 people are all dancing. Then it's a people are all dancing. Then it's a people are all dancing. Then it's a party. Yeah, that's literally the TED party. Yeah, that's literally the TED party. Yeah, that's literally the TED Talk. Talk. Talk. >> Love it. >> Love it. >> Love it. >> And um >> And um >> And um I think there's something to that, but I think there's something to that, but I think there's something to that, but you know, I think what's happening right you know, I think what's happening right you know, I think what's happening right now with vibe coding and agentic coding now with vibe coding and agentic coding now with vibe coding and agentic coding >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> um literally any given person could be >> um literally any given person could be >> um literally any given person could be 400 of that person like from 400 of that person like from 400 of that person like from two years like even like nine months ago two years like even like nine months ago two years like even like nine months ago um you can be a multiple of yourself. um you can be a multiple of yourself. um you can be a multiple of yourself. >> It's amazing. >> It's amazing. >> It's amazing. >> yeah, and so >> yeah, and so >> yeah, and so >> think founders are more ambitious than >> think founders are more ambitious than >> think founders are more ambitious than they've ever been? they've ever been? they've ever been? >> They should be. >> They should be. >> They should be. >> Yes. >> Yes. >> Yes. >> Um if anything, like that's the number >> Um if anything, like that's the number >> Um if anything, like that's the number one thing that people should do one thing that people should do one thing that people should do is realize that like don't chase your is realize that like don't chase your is realize that like don't chase your success or my success. Like that was, success or my success. Like that was, success or my success. Like that was, you know, when we were coming up. Like you know, when we were coming up. Like you know, when we were coming up. Like >> right. >> right. >> right. >> the game done changed. >> the game done changed. >> the game done changed. >> [laughter] >> [laughter] >> [laughter] >> You know, like you actually you can't >> You know, like you actually you can't >> You know, like you actually you can't just do a SaaS thing. Like I you know, I just do a SaaS thing. Like I you know, I just do a SaaS thing. Like I you know, I was just doing an analysis on my pure was just doing an analysis on my pure was just doing an analysis on my pure SaaS and I was like, oh shoot, like SaaS and I was like, oh shoot, like SaaS and I was like, oh shoot, like you know, you know, you know, a pure like per seat SaaS thing, like a pure like per seat SaaS thing, like a pure like per seat SaaS thing, like not totally clear it will exist in not totally clear it will exist in not totally clear it will exist in another 5 or 10 years. Like it's another 5 or 10 years. Like it's another 5 or 10 years. Like it's perfectly fine as a wedge, but if you're perfectly fine as a wedge, but if you're perfectly fine as a wedge, but if you're doing that now in 2026, like you better doing that now in 2026, like you better doing that now in 2026, like you better hope that that's like a leap to some hope that that's like a leap to some hope that that's like a leap to some sort of moat around data or network sort of moat around data or network sort of moat around data or network effects or something else, right? effects or something else, right? effects or something else, right? Um and that's like Um and that's like Um and that's like you know, if you you know, if you you know, if you if we would time travel to like even 2 if we would time travel to like even 2 if we would time travel to like even 2 years ago, it's like SaaS was God, you years ago, it's like SaaS was God, you years ago, it's like SaaS was God, you know, like the 10 20X like next 12 know, like the 10 20X like next 12 know, like the 10 20X like next 12 months uh revenue multiple was like, you months uh revenue multiple was like, you months uh revenue multiple was like, you know, iron law. know, iron law. know, iron law. And like it's hard to believe it was And like it's hard to believe it was And like it's hard to believe it was like, oh yeah, no, that's not true at like, oh yeah, no, that's not true at like, oh yeah, no, that's not true at all now. all now. all now. >> Well, all this is you know, it's a >> Well, all this is you know, it's a >> Well, all this is you know, it's a related thing that I love is that code related thing that I love is that code related thing that I love is that code is no longer precious. is no longer precious. is no longer precious. >> Mhm. >> Mhm. >> Mhm. >> My god. >> My god. >> My god. >> That's like >> That's like >> That's like >> the things that we had to go through to >> the things that we had to go through to >> the things that we had to go through to get something shipped. And that's why get something shipped. And that's why get something shipped. And that's why you had to have this like sense that you had to have this like sense that you had to have this like sense that what you were making was important with what you were making was important with what you were making was important with a capital I. a capital I. a capital I. >> Oh, yeah. >> Oh, yeah. >> Oh, yeah. >> And that actually flies against the kind >> And that actually flies against the kind >> And that actually flies against the kind of beautiful truth we were just talking of beautiful truth we were just talking of beautiful truth we were just talking about because often earnestness isn't about because often earnestness isn't about because often earnestness isn't obviously important with a capital I. So obviously important with a capital I. So obviously important with a capital I. So you pursue things that seem important you pursue things that seem important you pursue things that seem important when most of the most important things when most of the most important things when most of the most important things actually start out seeming actually actually start out seeming actually actually start out seeming actually unimportant. unimportant. unimportant. >> I know you've been all over this with G >> I know you've been all over this with G >> I know you've been all over this with G stack and G brain and you know, when you stack and G brain and you know, when you stack and G brain and you know, when you started out to build those things, with started out to build those things, with started out to build those things, with the intention to like contribute to the the intention to like contribute to the the intention to like contribute to the community or just explore your community or just explore your community or just explore your interests? interests? interests? >> Oh, I was just messing around. Like, you >> Oh, I was just messing around. Like, you >> Oh, I was just messing around. Like, you know, uh what was it? I think Boris know, uh what was it? I think Boris know, uh what was it? I think Boris Cherny came on Light Cone podcast and I Cherny came on Light Cone podcast and I Cherny came on Light Cone podcast and I just felt like the urge to you know, and just felt like the urge to you know, and just felt like the urge to you know, and a bunch of our mutual friends, like all a bunch of our mutual friends, like all a bunch of our mutual friends, like all of them uh basically just started coding of them uh basically just started coding of them uh basically just started coding again and I was like, oh something's again and I was like, oh something's again and I was like, oh something's happening. I better start. happening. I better start. happening. I better start. And then initially it was just messing And then initially it was just messing And then initially it was just messing around. It's like, "Oh, I mean, what around. It's like, "Oh, I mean, what around. It's like, "Oh, I mean, what would it be like to do and like make an would it be like to do and like make an would it be like to do and like make an office hours?" office hours?" office hours?" >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Um and then the craziest thing there was >> Um and then the craziest thing there was >> Um and then the craziest thing there was like we had just started um like we had just started um like we had just started um like recording all of our office hours, like recording all of our office hours, like recording all of our office hours, actually. And then I could I had like a actually. And then I could I had like a actually. And then I could I had like a few months of data, and there were like few months of data, and there were like few months of data, and there were like very clear things that um the YC very clear things that um the YC very clear things that um the YC partners used as like rhetorical devices partners used as like rhetorical devices partners used as like rhetorical devices or ways to like draw out like a step or ways to like draw out like a step or ways to like draw out like a step function in your ambition. function in your ambition. function in your ambition. >> Mhm. >> Mhm. >> Mhm. >> [clears throat] >> [clears throat] >> [clears throat] >> Um and then what's funny is I have this >> Um and then what's funny is I have this >> Um and then what's funny is I have this markdown file that is basically like the markdown file that is basically like the markdown file that is basically like the perfect script on how to advise founders perfect script on how to advise founders perfect script on how to advise founders to like increase their ambition. to like increase their ambition. to like increase their ambition. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> And then I actually had to go into >> And then I actually had to go into >> And then I actually had to go into Claude, and I said, "Reduce this by 90%. Claude, and I said, "Reduce this by 90%. Claude, and I said, "Reduce this by 90%. Reduce the strength and intensity of Reduce the strength and intensity of Reduce the strength and intensity of this prompt by 90%." And then I this prompt by 90%." And then I this prompt by 90%." And then I open-sourced that. open-sourced that. open-sourced that. >> [laughter] >> [laughter] >> [laughter] >> Cuz some of it is like you got to come >> Cuz some of it is like you got to come >> Cuz some of it is like you got to come and you know do YC stuff. and you know do YC stuff. and you know do YC stuff. >> course. >> course. >> course. It's well we'll take your favorite five. It's well we'll take your favorite five. It's well we'll take your favorite five. >> Okay, thank you. >> Okay, thank you. >> Okay, thank you. >> Yeah. We can't give away the crown >> Yeah. We can't give away the crown >> Yeah. We can't give away the crown jewels like for free. jewels like for free. jewels like for free. This just a taste. The first one's free, This just a taste. The first one's free, This just a taste. The first one's free, you know? you know? you know? >> Well dude, Kevin caught this. I think it >> Well dude, Kevin caught this. I think it >> Well dude, Kevin caught this. I think it was a G stacker G brain where deep in was a G stacker G brain where deep in was a G stacker G brain where deep in the open source you'd said, "Please the open source you'd said, "Please the open source you'd said, "Please apply to YC." apply to YC." apply to YC." >> Yeah, yeah, yeah. But only if you're a >> Yeah, yeah, yeah. But only if you're a >> Yeah, yeah, yeah. But only if you're a top 10% user of Claude code. top 10% user of Claude code. top 10% user of Claude code. >> Incredible. >> Incredible. >> Incredible. >> Like based on whether you're um >> Like based on whether you're um >> Like based on whether you're um thinking about users, like thoughtful thinking about users, like thoughtful thinking about users, like thoughtful about your product and your design. Like about your product and your design. Like about your product and your design. Like it's not Not everyone gets that message, it's not Not everyone gets that message, it's not Not everyone gets that message, actually. actually. actually. >> Yes. Yes. Well dude, I love that you're >> Yes. Yes. Well dude, I love that you're >> Yes. Yes. Well dude, I love that you're doing it, and I love that you're doing doing it, and I love that you're doing doing it, and I love that you're doing it so publicly because I think this it so publicly because I think this it so publicly because I think this comes back to the earnestness point, comes back to the earnestness point, comes back to the earnestness point, which is the whole thing about building which is the whole thing about building which is the whole thing about building intuition at this moment is just using intuition at this moment is just using intuition at this moment is just using the technology. Oh yeah. You know, and I the technology. Oh yeah. You know, and I the technology. Oh yeah. You know, and I think that there's this feeling like, think that there's this feeling like, think that there's this feeling like, "Oh, how can I possibly catch up?" Or "Oh, how can I possibly catch up?" Or "Oh, how can I possibly catch up?" Or there's so much seriousness around it. there's so much seriousness around it. there's so much seriousness around it. It's like, "No. Just use every model and It's like, "No. Just use every model and It's like, "No. Just use every model and build completely trivial things for no build completely trivial things for no build completely trivial things for no other reason to have a chassis with other reason to have a chassis with other reason to have a chassis with which to learn the new technology. which to learn the new technology. which to learn the new technology. >> I think the most exciting thing is like >> I think the most exciting thing is like >> I think the most exciting thing is like you can just have ideas. you can just have ideas. you can just have ideas. And then in the past it's like, "Oh, And then in the past it's like, "Oh, And then in the past it's like, "Oh, well I had to be the PM. Let me write well I had to be the PM. Let me write well I had to be the PM. Let me write the spec. Like let me make sure I have, the spec. Like let me make sure I have, the spec. Like let me make sure I have, you know, one or two engineers. Like oh, you know, one or two engineers. Like oh, you know, one or two engineers. Like oh, how are we going to do QA? Like there's how are we going to do QA? Like there's how are we going to do QA? Like there's just all this stuff that you used to just all this stuff that you used to just all this stuff that you used to have to worry about. And then now it's have to worry about. And then now it's have to worry about. And then now it's like no, slash QA. Like it's done. Like, like no, slash QA. Like it's done. Like, like no, slash QA. Like it's done. Like, you know, yeah, we tested it. It's good. you know, yeah, we tested it. It's good. you know, yeah, we tested it. It's good. Like we have unit tests. Like 90% test Like we have unit tests. Like 90% test Like we have unit tests. Like 90% test coverage, you know? coverage, you know? coverage, you know? >> Totally. You know, it's like arranging >> Totally. You know, it's like arranging >> Totally. You know, it's like arranging your Zen rock garden. It's just fun to your Zen rock garden. It's just fun to your Zen rock garden. It's just fun to do it and the like the output doesn't do it and the like the output doesn't do it and the like the output doesn't matter that much, which is why everybody matter that much, which is why everybody matter that much, which is why everybody talks about coding agents, but very few talks about coding agents, but very few talks about coding agents, but very few people are showing their work. Oh, yeah. people are showing their work. Oh, yeah. people are showing their work. Oh, yeah. Cuz a lot of it is sort of low stakes Cuz a lot of it is sort of low stakes Cuz a lot of it is sort of low stakes work and I think that's beautiful and work and I think that's beautiful and work and I think that's beautiful and okay. okay. okay. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> No, I mean and then I think it's crazy >> No, I mean and then I think it's crazy >> No, I mean and then I think it's crazy to what degree like suddenly agency and to what degree like suddenly agency and to what degree like suddenly agency and taste taste taste like off the charts important now. like off the charts important now. like off the charts important now. And then the hard part is like And then the hard part is like And then the hard part is like helping people realize like just by the helping people realize like just by the helping people realize like just by the act of doing it and exercising it, like act of doing it and exercising it, like act of doing it and exercising it, like that's how you get better. It's I don't that's how you get better. It's I don't that's how you get better. It's I don't actually think that like those things actually think that like those things actually think that like those things are in innate or inborn. Like some are in innate or inborn. Like some are in innate or inborn. Like some people have more of it coming out of the people have more of it coming out of the people have more of it coming out of the womb per se, but womb per se, but womb per se, but >> Sure. >> Sure. >> Sure. >> you know, it's you just practice. You >> you know, it's you just practice. You >> you know, it's you just practice. You know? know? know? >> Well, let me challenge you on this cuz >> Well, let me challenge you on this cuz >> Well, let me challenge you on this cuz Nikita said this a couple of maybe a Nikita said this a couple of maybe a Nikita said this a couple of maybe a year ago and I thought it was year ago and I thought it was year ago and I thought it was interesting, which is hey, we were told interesting, which is hey, we were told interesting, which is hey, we were told that the like highest form of art and that the like highest form of art and that the like highest form of art and business was, you know, film and business was, you know, film and business was, you know, film and software. And now anyone can make films software. And now anyone can make films software. And now anyone can make films and anybody can make software, yet the and anybody can make software, yet the and anybody can make software, yet the same 20% who were originally doing it same 20% who were originally doing it same 20% who were originally doing it are still the ones who are doing it. are still the ones who are doing it. are still the ones who are doing it. Is there kind of this like is agency Is there kind of this like is agency Is there kind of this like is agency something that you can, you know, something that you can, you know, something that you can, you know, embrace or are there just people that embrace or are there just people that embrace or are there just people that are naturally high agency and many that are naturally high agency and many that are naturally high agency and many that are not? are not? are not? >> Mhm. I mean, if I look at my own career, >> Mhm. I mean, if I look at my own career, >> Mhm. I mean, if I look at my own career, like I would easily say that I'm a late like I would easily say that I'm a late like I would easily say that I'm a late bloomer. And, you know, I had to make bloomer. And, you know, I had to make bloomer. And, you know, I had to make these like ridiculous mistakes, like these like ridiculous mistakes, like these like ridiculous mistakes, like saying no to Palantir or like leaving saying no to Palantir or like leaving saying no to Palantir or like leaving web programming to like learn. And so, web programming to like learn. And so, web programming to like learn. And so, I feel like my life is somewhat like a I feel like my life is somewhat like a I feel like my life is somewhat like a testament to no, no, like I can make testament to no, no, like I can make testament to no, no, like I can make mistakes and then I can introspect. I mistakes and then I can introspect. I mistakes and then I can introspect. I can reason about them and then make can reason about them and then make can reason about them and then make different choices. different choices. different choices. >> Amazing. >> Amazing. >> Amazing. >> That's the hope anyway. >> That's the hope anyway. >> That's the hope anyway. >> Yeah, that is hope. >> Yeah, that is hope. >> Yeah, that is hope. >> Talk a little bit about loops. I think >> Talk a little bit about loops. I think >> Talk a little bit about loops. I think they're a kind of coding loops, um, they're a kind of coding loops, um, they're a kind of coding loops, um, which are well discussed. And now the which are well discussed. And now the which are well discussed. And now the graphs thing, which is sort of, you graphs thing, which is sort of, you graphs thing, which is sort of, you know, both funny and and also real. But know, both funny and and also real. But know, both funny and and also real. But it feels like the most interesting loops it feels like the most interesting loops it feels like the most interesting loops are business loops. are business loops. are business loops. >> Oh, yeah. >> Oh, yeah. >> Oh, yeah. >> Like how can you actually have a loop >> Like how can you actually have a loop >> Like how can you actually have a loop where the output is changing the way the where the output is changing the way the where the output is changing the way the business itself operates? I know that business itself operates? I know that business itself operates? I know that Tom gave this great talk about how to Tom gave this great talk about how to Tom gave this great talk about how to organize your company in that way. organize your company in that way. organize your company in that way. >> Talk about how YC is organizing around >> Talk about how YC is organizing around >> Talk about how YC is organizing around loops and how you're advising your loops and how you're advising your loops and how you're advising your companies to. companies to. companies to. >> Yeah, absolutely. I mean, I messed >> Yeah, absolutely. I mean, I messed >> Yeah, absolutely. I mean, I messed around with Open Claw. I created G around with Open Claw. I created G around with Open Claw. I created G Brain, which is kind of like Soda Brain, which is kind of like Soda Brain, which is kind of like Soda Retrieval. Um, Retrieval. Um, Retrieval. Um, I basically distill I earlier this year I basically distill I earlier this year I basically distill I earlier this year I created Garyslist.org, which is sort I created Garyslist.org, which is sort I created Garyslist.org, which is sort of like actually an agentic newsroom. of like actually an agentic newsroom. of like actually an agentic newsroom. And then I had to create like really, And then I had to create like really, And then I had to create like really, really good rag around like, you know, really good rag around like, you know, really good rag around like, you know, uh, personal deep research just to be uh, personal deep research just to be uh, personal deep research just to be able to put together some of those able to put together some of those able to put together some of those articles. articles. articles. >> Mhm. >> Mhm. >> Mhm. >> Uh, and then all I did was like I had >> Uh, and then all I did was like I had >> Uh, and then all I did was like I had Open Claw look at that repo, extract out Open Claw look at that repo, extract out Open Claw look at that repo, extract out like the agentic rag part, especially like the agentic rag part, especially like the agentic rag part, especially around like, um, around like, um, around like, um, like after-the-fact uh, graph like after-the-fact uh, graph like after-the-fact uh, graph generation. generation. generation. >> Mhm. >> Mhm. >> Mhm. >> Um, and then it just ended up being Soda >> Um, and then it just ended up being Soda >> Um, and then it just ended up being Soda even against like Memory Palace and a even against like Memory Palace and a even against like Memory Palace and a bunch of other open source. bunch of other open source. bunch of other open source. >> Edible. >> Edible. >> Edible. >> Uh, and then what I realized is that >> Uh, and then what I realized is that >> Uh, and then what I realized is that just allows the agent to know what just allows the agent to know what just allows the agent to know what million tokens to keep in its head for million tokens to keep in its head for million tokens to keep in its head for any given task. any given task. any given task. >> Yes. >> Yes. >> Yes. >> And so, um, what's interesting is like I >> And so, um, what's interesting is like I >> And so, um, what's interesting is like I think there are a couple things at work think there are a couple things at work think there are a couple things at work right now, like, um, right now, like, um, right now, like, um, the frontier model labs that are, you the frontier model labs that are, you the frontier model labs that are, you you know, letting you use ChatGPT or you know, letting you use ChatGPT or you know, letting you use ChatGPT or Claw, I think that they're still pretty Claw, I think that they're still pretty Claw, I think that they're still pretty constrained on constrained on constrained on and pretty constrained on, um, amount of and pretty constrained on, um, amount of and pretty constrained on, um, amount of compute they want to give you. And so, compute they want to give you. And so, compute they want to give you. And so, if you really want to token max, you if you really want to token max, you if you really want to token max, you actually have to use something like actually have to use something like actually have to use something like Hermes Agent or Open Claw. Hermes Agent or Open Claw. Hermes Agent or Open Claw. >> Mhm. >> Mhm. >> Mhm. >> Um, and then you have to like tune it >> Um, and then you have to like tune it >> Um, and then you have to like tune it all the way up. Like you're just like, all the way up. Like you're just like, all the way up. Like you're just like, give me like let me load a million give me like let me load a million give me like let me load a million tokens or 800,000 tokens in tokens or 800,000 tokens in tokens or 800,000 tokens in >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> to any given request and like have that >> to any given request and like have that >> to any given request and like have that be in your like soul.md. be in your like soul.md. be in your like soul.md. >> Yeah. But when you do that, like I think >> Yeah. But when you do that, like I think >> Yeah. But when you do that, like I think that you basically get to live in that you basically get to live in that you basically get to live in 2028. Like, you know, it costs, I don't 2028. Like, you know, it costs, I don't 2028. Like, you know, it costs, I don't know, 50 or 100,000 dollars a year to know, 50 or 100,000 dollars a year to know, 50 or 100,000 dollars a year to like use the agents at full strength, like use the agents at full strength, like use the agents at full strength, like full 150 IQ on every request. like full 150 IQ on every request. like full 150 IQ on every request. But you'll feel it more or less But you'll feel it more or less But you'll feel it more or less immediately. immediately. immediately. It just costs like a crazy amount. But It just costs like a crazy amount. But It just costs like a crazy amount. But for a CEO or for a founder, it actually for a CEO or for a founder, it actually for a CEO or for a founder, it actually makes a lot of sense to do that and you makes a lot of sense to do that and you makes a lot of sense to do that and you have to give yourself permission to have to give yourself permission to have to give yourself permission to token max in that way. token max in that way. token max in that way. Um, Um, Um, but you know, and then what you get is but you know, and then what you get is but you know, and then what you get is like I get you get to live in 2028 like I get you get to live in 2028 like I get you get to live in 2028 today. today. today. >> Amazing. >> Amazing. >> Amazing. >> Um, but I think like going back to what >> Um, but I think like going back to what >> Um, but I think like going back to what founders can do, founders can do, founders can do, um, um, um, if you live that way, if you live that way, if you live that way, not only do you want to do that task, not only do you want to do that task, not only do you want to do that task, you want to like skillify it. Like you you want to like skillify it. Like you you want to like skillify it. Like you you do some like you do some like you do some like feat of strength and then you turn it feat of strength and then you turn it feat of strength and then you turn it into a markdown file plus code plus into a markdown file plus code plus into a markdown file plus code plus tests that can be reused and like put tests that can be reused and like put tests that can be reused and like put into a cron job. into a cron job. into a cron job. >> Yes. >> Yes. >> Yes. >> And so, uh, I think we're just seeing >> And so, uh, I think we're just seeing >> And so, uh, I think we're just seeing like across the board, um, like across the board, um, like across the board, um, a markdown file is an employee. a markdown file is an employee. a markdown file is an employee. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> And it's an employee that, uh, will do >> And it's an employee that, uh, will do >> And it's an employee that, uh, will do the job perfectly every single time and the job perfectly every single time and the job perfectly every single time and it will do it like as many times as you it will do it like as many times as you it will do it like as many times as you want. want. want. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> And then, you know, at that point all >> And then, you know, at that point all >> And then, you know, at that point all you're doing is like take any business you're doing is like take any business you're doing is like take any business process that you need in your company process that you need in your company process that you need in your company and you just do it once perfectly. And and you just do it once perfectly. And and you just do it once perfectly. And the first time you try to do it, it's the first time you try to do it, it's the first time you try to do it, it's going to be bad. going to be bad. going to be bad. >> Expensive. Yeah, yes, many iterations. >> Expensive. Yeah, yes, many iterations. >> Expensive. Yeah, yes, many iterations. >> Yeah. But then at the end you can you as >> Yeah. But then at the end you can you as >> Yeah. But then at the end you can you as long as you can long as you can long as you can tell very, very quickly and in in very tell very, very quickly and in in very tell very, very quickly and in in very simple ways, like, "Hey agent, fix this, simple ways, like, "Hey agent, fix this, simple ways, like, "Hey agent, fix this, fix that. Like this was wrong." fix that. Like this was wrong." fix that. Like this was wrong." Um, Um, Um, you know, the actual trace and the you know, the actual trace and the you know, the actual trace and the actual, uh, history out of, um, that actual, uh, history out of, um, that actual, uh, history out of, um, that agent, uh, working with you, agent, uh, working with you, agent, uh, working with you, >> Mhm. >> Mhm. >> Mhm. >> it'll actually turn that into a skill >> it'll actually turn that into a skill >> it'll actually turn that into a skill file that's perfect, actually. And file that's perfect, actually. And file that's perfect, actually. And anytime it screws up in like a future anytime it screws up in like a future anytime it screws up in like a future case, it's just a bug fix, and then it's case, it's just a bug fix, and then it's case, it's just a bug fix, and then it's there forever. there forever. there forever. >> And this loop you would apply to sales, >> And this loop you would apply to sales, >> And this loop you would apply to sales, to marketing, to customer support, to to marketing, to customer support, to to marketing, to customer support, to everything. everything. everything. >> Yeah, to everything. >> Yeah, to everything. >> Yeah, to everything. >> Really interesting. >> Really interesting. >> Really interesting. >> I mean, G stack was basically that for >> I mean, G stack was basically that for >> I mean, G stack was basically that for engineering, right? It's like there's a engineering, right? It's like there's a engineering, right? It's like there's a QA loop. I had to build something that QA loop. I had to build something that QA loop. I had to build something that works with browsers to go and cuz that's works with browsers to go and cuz that's works with browsers to go and cuz that's what I found like early with G stack, I what I found like early with G stack, I what I found like early with G stack, I found myself um, found myself um, found myself um, you know, automating how I thought about you know, automating how I thought about you know, automating how I thought about PM, and then uh, you know, I had a PM, and then uh, you know, I had a PM, and then uh, you know, I had a engineering skill that was like an engineering skill that was like an engineering skill that was like an engine manager that made sure that there engine manager that made sure that there engine manager that made sure that there was a unit test and end-to-end test was a unit test and end-to-end test was a unit test and end-to-end test coverage. coverage. coverage. >> Yep. >> Yep. >> Yep. >> Um, but then in the end, I found myself >> Um, but then in the end, I found myself >> Um, but then in the end, I found myself like like like uh, I automated all the other things so uh, I automated all the other things so uh, I automated all the other things so much that all I was doing at the end was much that all I was doing at the end was much that all I was doing at the end was black box testing to to verify. black box testing to to verify. black box testing to to verify. And it was like, "Oh, no, no, okay, like And it was like, "Oh, no, no, okay, like And it was like, "Oh, no, no, okay, like even that part." Like it's interesting even that part." Like it's interesting even that part." Like it's interesting like uh, building these agentic systems like uh, building these agentic systems like uh, building these agentic systems today, I think that's all you're doing today, I think that's all you're doing today, I think that's all you're doing is you're seeing where the bottlenecks is you're seeing where the bottlenecks is you're seeing where the bottlenecks are, and then, you know, almost every are, and then, you know, almost every are, and then, you know, almost every single time it's like, single time it's like, single time it's like, "How do I just instruct the agent to "How do I just instruct the agent to "How do I just instruct the agent to create a piece of software or a markdown create a piece of software or a markdown create a piece of software or a markdown file that blows away that roadblock." file that blows away that roadblock." file that blows away that roadblock." And then, when you take a step back and And then, when you take a step back and And then, when you take a step back and you've done that for the whole task, you've done that for the whole task, you've done that for the whole task, it's like, I mean, we we there are it's like, I mean, we we there are it's like, I mean, we we there are companies now today that, you know, we companies now today that, you know, we companies now today that, you know, we were we were talking about earlier were we were talking about earlier were we were talking about earlier that's like literally you can go from that's like literally you can go from that's like literally you can go from zero to 15 mil ARR in about 4 months zero to 15 mil ARR in about 4 months zero to 15 mil ARR in about 4 months with like two or three people and like with like two or three people and like with like two or three people and like hundreds of agent like, you know, a few hundreds of agent like, you know, a few hundreds of agent like, you know, a few hundred skill files. hundred skill files. hundred skill files. >> It's amazing. So, there's this like >> It's amazing. So, there's this like >> It's amazing. So, there's this like recursive self-improvement and there's recursive self-improvement and there's recursive self-improvement and there's this hill climbing that happens. this hill climbing that happens. this hill climbing that happens. Like Like Like at what point does it start to fall at what point does it start to fall at what point does it start to fall over? Is there like do you need error over? Is there like do you need error over? Is there like do you need error correction? Do the errors compound? Does correction? Do the errors compound? Does correction? Do the errors compound? Does it get constrained by exception it get constrained by exception it get constrained by exception handling, human relationships? Cuz handling, human relationships? Cuz handling, human relationships? Cuz otherwise, these companies should just otherwise, these companies should just otherwise, these companies should just be able to grow and run forever. be able to grow and run forever. be able to grow and run forever. >> Yeah. I mean, I guess my experience >> Yeah. I mean, I guess my experience >> Yeah. I mean, I guess my experience once you get a lot of markdown files or once you get a lot of markdown files or once you get a lot of markdown files or yeah, anytime you have like some large yeah, anytime you have like some large yeah, anytime you have like some large amount of data, um, amount of data, um, amount of data, um, that's where like provenance matters. that's where like provenance matters. that's where like provenance matters. That's where um conflict management sort That's where um conflict management sort That's where um conflict management sort of you know when you have two facts if of you know when you have two facts if of you know when you have two facts if you have provenance then you're like you have provenance then you're like you have provenance then you're like well this is the more recent one like well this is the more recent one like well this is the more recent one like this is the one that wins. You need a this is the one that wins. You need a this is the one that wins. You need a cron job that's sort of sweeping through cron job that's sort of sweeping through cron job that's sort of sweeping through that and making sure that things are that and making sure that things are that and making sure that things are accurate and from the right places. Um accurate and from the right places. Um accurate and from the right places. Um but these are things that I think as you but these are things that I think as you but these are things that I think as you use the systems use the systems use the systems um um um you just know that you need to build you just know that you need to build you just know that you need to build these things. Like anyone who's I mean these things. Like anyone who's I mean these things. Like anyone who's I mean this is actually one of the interesting this is actually one of the interesting this is actually one of the interesting things I think is an advantage for things I think is an advantage for things I think is an advantage for founders in their 30s and 40s now. founders in their 30s and 40s now. founders in their 30s and 40s now. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Um like >> Um like >> Um like I mean I think that there going to be as I mean I think that there going to be as I mean I think that there going to be as many Patrick Collisons as ever. many Patrick Collisons as ever. many Patrick Collisons as ever. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Um but one mega trend that we're seeing >> Um but one mega trend that we're seeing >> Um but one mega trend that we're seeing is like a 35 40 45 year old founder who is like a 35 40 45 year old founder who is like a 35 40 45 year old founder who like been around the block. like been around the block. like been around the block. >> Yeah yeah yeah. >> Yeah yeah yeah. >> Yeah yeah yeah. >> Built a lot of companies. >> Built a lot of companies. >> Built a lot of companies. I mean I think uh yeah Peter Steinberger I mean I think uh yeah Peter Steinberger I mean I think uh yeah Peter Steinberger is like a perfect example of that. Where is like a perfect example of that. Where is like a perfect example of that. Where it's like he's been around the block it's like he's been around the block it's like he's been around the block like he knows what to build. like he knows what to build. like he knows what to build. >> Yes. >> Yes. >> Yes. >> Um and then if you take that person like >> Um and then if you take that person like >> Um and then if you take that person like suddenly there's 400 of those people suddenly there's 400 of those people suddenly there's 400 of those people like you can outperform an entire like you can outperform an entire like you can outperform an entire department of like any mag seven. department of like any mag seven. department of like any mag seven. >> I also think that if you've had some >> I also think that if you've had some >> I also think that if you've had some experience in the enterprise there are experience in the enterprise there are experience in the enterprise there are these dynamics that you know you can these dynamics that you know you can these dynamics that you know you can seek to kind of mirror and explore. So seek to kind of mirror and explore. So seek to kind of mirror and explore. So one of the things I'm really interested one of the things I'm really interested one of the things I'm really interested in is conflict. Right? Most people at an in is conflict. Right? Most people at an in is conflict. Right? Most people at an enterprise would say conflict is a bad enterprise would say conflict is a bad enterprise would say conflict is a bad thing but I actually think that there's thing but I actually think that there's thing but I actually think that there's this sort of productive constructive this sort of productive constructive this sort of productive constructive conflict that at its best is the search conflict that at its best is the search conflict that at its best is the search for truth. for truth. for truth. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> These systems allow us to do things like >> These systems allow us to do things like >> These systems allow us to do things like explore conflicting approaches and explore conflicting approaches and explore conflicting approaches and totally unbundle it from the human totally unbundle it from the human totally unbundle it from the human emotion. And I think that's actually emotion. And I think that's actually emotion. And I think that's actually very important because this is why the very important because this is why the very important because this is why the sort of the decentralization in an sort of the decentralization in an sort of the decentralization in an organization or an economy works well organization or an economy works well organization or an economy works well because every idea gets tried. You know? because every idea gets tried. You know? because every idea gets tried. You know? >> Yeah uh do you know Pedro from Brex is >> Yeah uh do you know Pedro from Brex is >> Yeah uh do you know Pedro from Brex is like the most aggressive person I've met like the most aggressive person I've met like the most aggressive person I've met who does this with his exact team? who does this with his exact team? who does this with his exact team? >> No. >> No. >> No. >> So which is cool like he uses Like, he >> So which is cool like he uses Like, he >> So which is cool like he uses Like, he actually was one of the people who like actually was one of the people who like actually was one of the people who like really got me into OpenClaw. really got me into OpenClaw. really got me into OpenClaw. >> Okay. >> Okay. >> Okay. >> Um because he just came in and, you >> Um because he just came in and, you >> Um because he just came in and, you know, he had lunch with us at YC. know, he had lunch with us at YC. know, he had lunch with us at YC. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> And he just walked us through um you >> And he just walked us through um you >> And he just walked us through um you know, the the vibe around OpenClaw was know, the the vibe around OpenClaw was know, the the vibe around OpenClaw was that it was too unsafe and dangerous and that it was too unsafe and dangerous and that it was too unsafe and dangerous and like delete your whole computer and like delete your whole computer and like delete your whole computer and stuff like that. Uh what he ended up stuff like that. Uh what he ended up stuff like that. Uh what he ended up doing was like building an entire doing was like building an entire doing was like building an entire open-source layer, which he actually has open-source layer, which he actually has open-source layer, which he actually has open-source called Craptrack. open-source called Craptrack. open-source called Craptrack. >> Okay. >> Okay. >> Okay. >> But it's like an agent that watches all >> But it's like an agent that watches all >> But it's like an agent that watches all the network traffic and all the things the network traffic and all the things the network traffic and all the things that uh OpenClaw does. that uh OpenClaw does. that uh OpenClaw does. >> Nice. >> Nice. >> Nice. >> And then that's how he squares the >> And then that's how he squares the >> And then that's how he squares the circle. Like, Brex is one of the most circle. Like, Brex is one of the most circle. Like, Brex is one of the most regulated, you know, fintech. Of course. regulated, you know, fintech. Of course. regulated, you know, fintech. Of course. Of course. Um And then the upshot of Of course. Um And then the upshot of Of course. Um And then the upshot of what he got is that um he has his agent what he got is that um he has his agent what he got is that um he has his agent look at the meeting transcripts from look at the meeting transcripts from look at the meeting transcripts from like all of his direct reports. And he like all of his direct reports. And he like all of his direct reports. And he like can see that like two levels down. like can see that like two levels down. like can see that like two levels down. Yeah. And then the thing that really Yeah. And then the thing that really Yeah. And then the thing that really jumped out at me is like he can use jumped out at me is like he can use jumped out at me is like he can use uh meetings that he's not in now to uh meetings that he's not in now to uh meetings that he's not in now to figure out like what's broken, what's in figure out like what's broken, what's in figure out like what's broken, what's in conflict, like who's who's in conflict conflict, like who's who's in conflict conflict, like who's who's in conflict with who. with who. with who. >> Yes. >> Yes. >> Yes. >> Uh and then sometimes he can show up at >> Uh and then sometimes he can show up at >> Uh and then sometimes he can show up at a meeting. He has perfect context from a meeting. He has perfect context from a meeting. He has perfect context from like the last 3 weeks of like that one like the last 3 weeks of like that one like the last 3 weeks of like that one compliance team. compliance team. compliance team. >> Yes. >> Yes. >> Yes. >> And then he can walk in and he's like, >> And then he can walk in and he's like, >> And then he can walk in and he's like, "Actually, you're right. We're doing it "Actually, you're right. We're doing it "Actually, you're right. We're doing it your way." And then he can leave. your way." And then he can leave. your way." And then he can leave. >> That's so badass. >> That's so badass. >> That's so badass. >> Yeah. And it's like, can you imagine >> Yeah. And it's like, can you imagine >> Yeah. And it's like, can you imagine like that is actually one of the like that is actually one of the like that is actually one of the defining reasons why um startups or defining reasons why um startups or defining reasons why um startups or businesses fail. businesses fail. businesses fail. >> Yes. >> Yes. >> Yes. >> It's like it's actually like a a >> It's like it's actually like a a >> It's like it's actually like a a management challenge. Like, the business management challenge. Like, the business management challenge. Like, the business becomes too big to fit in one person's becomes too big to fit in one person's becomes too big to fit in one person's head. And then this is like the most head. And then this is like the most head. And then this is like the most profound form of you have you have profound form of you have you have profound form of you have you have agents, you have memory, you have agents, you have memory, you have agents, you have memory, you have retrieval. Um you like zap the rocks retrieval. Um you like zap the rocks retrieval. Um you like zap the rocks more, the rocks give you like raw more, the rocks give you like raw more, the rocks give you like raw intelligence about like what's intelligence about like what's intelligence about like what's happening. And it can actually happening. And it can actually happening. And it can actually introspect not just on the opinion of introspect not just on the opinion of introspect not just on the opinion of like someone two levels down in your like someone two levels down in your like someone two levels down in your organization, but it can actually look organization, but it can actually look organization, but it can actually look at the ground truth from the data, at the ground truth from the data, at the ground truth from the data, right? And it's like that, you know, right? And it's like that, you know, right? And it's like that, you know, that's clairvoyance, right? Like that's clairvoyance, right? Like that's clairvoyance, right? Like >> Yes. >> Yes. >> Yes. >> You I mean >> You I mean >> You I mean if you once you have that in your brain, if you once you have that in your brain, if you once you have that in your brain, like actually every business in the like actually every business in the like actually every business in the world is available for you to take their world is available for you to take their world is available for you to take their business. business. business. >> Yes. >> Yes. >> Yes. >> Yes. Yes. >> Yes. Yes. >> Yes. Yes. >> like the world is basically built on >> like the world is basically built on >> like the world is basically built on things that are built around human things that are built around human things that are built around human beings and human beings can only keep beings and human beings can only keep beings and human beings can only keep seven plus or minus two things in their seven plus or minus two things in their seven plus or minus two things in their head at any given time. head at any given time. head at any given time. >> And you know, guess what? You plus an >> And you know, guess what? You plus an >> And you know, guess what? You plus an agent can keep basically three Harry agent can keep basically three Harry agent can keep basically three Harry Potter books in your head. You can like Potter books in your head. You can like Potter books in your head. You can like rifle shot rifle shot rifle shot >> come. >> come. >> come. >> Yeah, I mean and more to come, right? >> Yeah, I mean and more to come, right? >> Yeah, I mean and more to come, right? Like this is as this is as bad there's Like this is as this is as bad there's Like this is as this is as bad there's so many cryptoisms that like applied so many cryptoisms that like applied so many cryptoisms that like applied like 10 times more to AI which is like like 10 times more to AI which is like like 10 times more to AI which is like this is the worst it will ever be this is the worst it will ever be this is the worst it will ever be actually. actually. actually. >> Yes. Yes. >> Yes. Yes. >> Yes. Yes. >> Um and so the whole world, like all >> Um and so the whole world, like all >> Um and so the whole world, like all business, all things that people rely business, all things that people rely business, all things that people rely on, government especially, uh is on, government especially, uh is on, government especially, uh is basically still built on a world that is basically still built on a world that is basically still built on a world that is predicated by human beings, limited predicated by human beings, limited predicated by human beings, limited human beings that can only keep seven human beings that can only keep seven human beings that can only keep seven plus or minus two things in their head. plus or minus two things in their head. plus or minus two things in their head. >> Yes. >> Yes. >> Yes. >> And it's not ready. Like it's not ready >> And it's not ready. Like it's not ready >> And it's not ready. Like it's not ready for the world where agents can think at for the world where agents can think at for the world where agents can think at the speed of light. Like you have the speed of light. Like you have the speed of light. Like you have unlimited amounts of it, like unlimited unlimited amounts of it, like unlimited unlimited amounts of it, like unlimited amounts of data. Um and then, you know, amounts of data. Um and then, you know, amounts of data. Um and then, you know, my hope is that like basically products my hope is that like basically products my hope is that like basically products are going to be 10 or 100 times better. are going to be 10 or 100 times better. are going to be 10 or 100 times better. Like they should be a thousand times Like they should be a thousand times Like they should be a thousand times better. better. better. >> Yes. >> Yes. >> Yes. >> Like services should be a thousand times >> Like services should be a thousand times >> Like services should be a thousand times better, right? Like better, right? Like better, right? Like >> Yes. >> Yes. >> Yes. >> you know, the invisible hand of >> you know, the invisible hand of >> you know, the invisible hand of capitalism at that point lies properly capitalism at that point lies properly capitalism at that point lies properly done, it's not about lowering the cost done, it's not about lowering the cost done, it's not about lowering the cost of something. It should actually be um of something. It should actually be um of something. It should actually be um creating these like sort of magical creating these like sort of magical creating these like sort of magical things that they I was like on Wall things that they I was like on Wall things that they I was like on Wall Street Journal podcast recently and the Street Journal podcast recently and the Street Journal podcast recently and the reporter like kept trying to like gotcha reporter like kept trying to like gotcha reporter like kept trying to like gotcha me. He kept saying like, are you you me. He kept saying like, are you you me. He kept saying like, are you you know, you guys in tech, are you trying know, you guys in tech, are you trying know, you guys in tech, are you trying to make a utopia? And I was like this is to make a utopia? And I was like this is to make a utopia? And I was like this is a trap. Like I don't I I would not go so a trap. Like I don't I I would not go so a trap. Like I don't I I would not go so far to say, far to say, far to say, you know, but as I went through like a you know, but as I went through like a you know, but as I went through like a bunch of examples from like a bunch of bunch of examples from like a bunch of bunch of examples from like a bunch of the startups that you and I have like the startups that you and I have like the startups that you and I have like worked on and funded and things like worked on and funded and things like worked on and funded and things like that. I was like, actually like maybe, that. I was like, actually like maybe, that. I was like, actually like maybe, right? Like right? Like right? Like you know, we may never achieve a utopia, you know, we may never achieve a utopia, you know, we may never achieve a utopia, but it is worthy and worth it to but it is worthy and worth it to but it is worthy and worth it to attempt, right? And that, you know, I I attempt, right? And that, you know, I I attempt, right? And that, you know, I I would not say that Silicon Valley or would not say that Silicon Valley or would not say that Silicon Valley or tech will achieve a utopia. I will very tech will achieve a utopia. I will very tech will achieve a utopia. I will very earnestly say that we are trying to earnestly say that we are trying to earnestly say that we are trying to bring about a better world. bring about a better world. bring about a better world. >> Maybe another way to say this is just >> Maybe another way to say this is just >> Maybe another way to say this is just this is the least happy you'll ever be. this is the least happy you'll ever be. this is the least happy you'll ever be. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> You know, because I think it like one of >> You know, because I think it like one of >> You know, because I think it like one of the other implications of what you're the other implications of what you're the other implications of what you're describing is just the ergonomics of the describing is just the ergonomics of the describing is just the ergonomics of the sort of white-collar job today. You sort of white-collar job today. You sort of white-collar job today. You know, you think about every You've know, you think about every You've know, you think about every You've worked at big companies. Like you think worked at big companies. Like you think worked at big companies. Like you think of just the kind of morass that you have of just the kind of morass that you have of just the kind of morass that you have to get through. to get through. to get through. >> Torture. >> Torture. >> Torture. >> You think of how lossy the communication >> You think of how lossy the communication >> You think of how lossy the communication is. Like the entire management science is. Like the entire management science is. Like the entire management science sort of managerial class. Like maybe sort of managerial class. Like maybe sort of managerial class. Like maybe that was a 100-year distraction from that was a 100-year distraction from that was a 100-year distraction from what was founder mode, you know, in the what was founder mode, you know, in the what was founder mode, you know, in the in the Industrial Revolution all the way in the Industrial Revolution all the way in the Industrial Revolution all the way through Henry Ford, all the way through through Henry Ford, all the way through through Henry Ford, all the way through some of the early Silicon Valley some of the early Silicon Valley some of the early Silicon Valley founders, and then everybody just kind founders, and then everybody just kind founders, and then everybody just kind of hit this tidal wave of management. of hit this tidal wave of management. of hit this tidal wave of management. >> Oh, yeah. >> Oh, yeah. >> Oh, yeah. >> Now we have this new model that can lead >> Now we have this new model that can lead >> Now we have this new model that can lead to dramatic productivity improvements to dramatic productivity improvements to dramatic productivity improvements like 3 days a week of really intentional like 3 days a week of really intentional like 3 days a week of really intentional work. Maybe 1 day. work. Maybe 1 day. work. Maybe 1 day. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> And the other days you're touching >> And the other days you're touching >> And the other days you're touching grass. And I think the time that you do grass. And I think the time that you do grass. And I think the time that you do spend is just so much less burdened by spend is just so much less burdened by spend is just so much less burdened by this stuff this stuff this stuff >> that you always felt like you had to >> that you always felt like you had to >> that you always felt like you had to wade through. wade through. wade through. >> Yeah, that's right. I mean, if you look >> Yeah, that's right. I mean, if you look >> Yeah, that's right. I mean, if you look at the typical Mag 7 day-to-day, it's at the typical Mag 7 day-to-day, it's at the typical Mag 7 day-to-day, it's insane. Like I remember when I was 22 insane. Like I remember when I was 22 insane. Like I remember when I was 22 working on Windows Mobile. working on Windows Mobile. working on Windows Mobile. Uh we're working on Uh we're working on Uh we're working on you know, these crazy devices that were you know, these crazy devices that were you know, these crazy devices that were like years before the iPhone. And um like years before the iPhone. And um like years before the iPhone. And um we needed integration for instance from we needed integration for instance from we needed integration for instance from the Windows team, which was like, you the Windows team, which was like, you the Windows team, which was like, you know, on the other side of the highway know, on the other side of the highway know, on the other side of the highway in Redmond. in Redmond. in Redmond. >> Right. >> Right. >> Right. >> And then I remember, you know, me and my >> And then I remember, you know, me and my >> And then I remember, you know, me and my sort of PM mentor, sort of PM mentor, sort of PM mentor, uh we had to go over to the to the uh we had to go over to the to the uh we had to go over to the to the Windows team and like they wouldn't Windows team and like they wouldn't Windows team and like they wouldn't reply to our emails. They wouldn't fix reply to our emails. They wouldn't fix reply to our emails. They wouldn't fix our bugs. They wouldn't even like mark our bugs. They wouldn't even like mark our bugs. They wouldn't even like mark it as won't fix. They just ignored us. it as won't fix. They just ignored us. it as won't fix. They just ignored us. And we had to go over there with a And we had to go over there with a And we had to go over there with a baseball bat. Like I don't know why he baseball bat. Like I don't know why he baseball bat. Like I don't know why he brought one. Like it wasn't like he was brought one. Like it wasn't like he was brought one. Like it wasn't like he was going to like rough anyone up. It was going to like rough anyone up. It was going to like rough anyone up. It was just like this vague threat or just like this vague threat or just like this vague threat or something. something. something. It was actually hilarious and I think It was actually hilarious and I think It was actually hilarious and I think about that all the time. It's like what about that all the time. It's like what about that all the time. It's like what kind of like bureau cratic hell is it kind of like bureau cratic hell is it kind of like bureau cratic hell is it where like two perfectly smart people where like two perfectly smart people where like two perfectly smart people who are making like good tech money, who are making like good tech money, who are making like good tech money, >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> you know, are put into a situation where >> you know, are put into a situation where >> you know, are put into a situation where like there's a fiefdom over here. Like like there's a fiefdom over here. Like like there's a fiefdom over here. Like literally there's like seven levels literally there's like seven levels literally there's like seven levels between us and that person. between us and that person. between us and that person. >> Yes. >> Yes. >> Yes. >> And this person doesn't even know that >> And this person doesn't even know that >> And this person doesn't even know that we spent like four hours trying to get we spent like four hours trying to get we spent like four hours trying to get like a P3 bug fix that was like a like a P3 bug fix that was like a like a P3 bug fix that was like a blocker for a thousand of our users or blocker for a thousand of our users or blocker for a thousand of our users or something. It's like something. It's like something. It's like >> And how much humanity is just wasted? >> And how much humanity is just wasted? >> And how much humanity is just wasted? >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> How many 2:00 a.m. sort of anxious >> How many 2:00 a.m. sort of anxious >> How many 2:00 a.m. sort of anxious wake-ups were there wake-ups were there wake-ups were there >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> because somebody wanted to not have a >> because somebody wanted to not have a >> because somebody wanted to not have a hard conversation. Like it's, you know, hard conversation. Like it's, you know, hard conversation. Like it's, you know, it's it's a really it's a waste of the it's it's a really it's a waste of the it's it's a really it's a waste of the way we should be spending our time in way we should be spending our time in way we should be spending our time in working. working. working. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> And that's a profound version of like >> And that's a profound version of like >> And that's a profound version of like the seven plus or minus two. Like I the seven plus or minus two. Like I the seven plus or minus two. Like I don't think that like the, you know, don't think that like the, you know, don't think that like the, you know, product unit manager or whatever the product unit manager or whatever the product unit manager or whatever the heck their, you know, their title was. heck their, you know, their title was. heck their, you know, their title was. Like I don't think that they wanted us Like I don't think that they wanted us Like I don't think that they wanted us to waste our time like that. to waste our time like that. to waste our time like that. I think it's just that, you know, your I think it's just that, you know, your I think it's just that, you know, your day like you just don't have enough day like you just don't have enough day like you just don't have enough hours in the day and we're like hours in the day and we're like hours in the day and we're like incredibly limited human beings, but you incredibly limited human beings, but you incredibly limited human beings, but you know, know, know, I yeah, it's funny. Like I think that I yeah, it's funny. Like I think that I yeah, it's funny. Like I think that you know, I think about my time at you know, I think about my time at you know, I think about my time at Microsoft and it's like I remember Microsoft and it's like I remember Microsoft and it's like I remember getting an iPod and like doing getting an iPod and like doing getting an iPod and like doing competitive research for like Windows competitive research for like Windows competitive research for like Windows Mobile versus the iPod. I can imagine Mobile versus the iPod. I can imagine Mobile versus the iPod. I can imagine today at Microsoft you can imagine a today at Microsoft you can imagine a today at Microsoft you can imagine a markdown file and a skill markdown file and a skill markdown file and a skill >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> that is run on a cron. >> that is run on a cron. >> that is run on a cron. >> Yes. >> Yes. >> Yes. >> And it's like how are how are all the >> And it's like how are how are all the >> And it's like how are how are all the people working on this team? Like, are people working on this team? Like, are people working on this team? Like, are they blocked? Who are they blocked by? they blocked? Who are they blocked by? they blocked? Who are they blocked by? What are the external dependencies? Like What are the external dependencies? Like What are the external dependencies? Like suddenly there is a graph, there's a suddenly there is a graph, there's a suddenly there is a graph, there's a loop, and then suddenly like, you know, loop, and then suddenly like, you know, loop, and then suddenly like, you know, the products can actually just move that the products can actually just move that the products can actually just move that like, you could release something in a like, you could release something in a like, you could release something in a day or two that would have taken like 6 day or two that would have taken like 6 day or two that would have taken like 6 months. It's incredible. And if you months. It's incredible. And if you months. It's incredible. And if you could like multiply that out across could like multiply that out across could like multiply that out across like, the thing is like probably an org like, the thing is like probably an org like, the thing is like probably an org like Microsoft can't. like Microsoft can't. like Microsoft can't. >> Yes. >> Yes. >> Yes. >> But like a startup can. >> But like a startup can. >> But like a startup can. >> Yes. >> Yes. >> Yes. >> And every startup must. >> And every startup must. >> And every startup must. >> Yes, they must be organized as well. I >> Yes, they must be organized as well. I >> Yes, they must be organized as well. I also love what you said, it's almost also love what you said, it's almost also love what you said, it's almost like the mid-level of bureaucracy should like the mid-level of bureaucracy should like the mid-level of bureaucracy should be agents. Cuz I actually think that, be agents. Cuz I actually think that, be agents. Cuz I actually think that, you know, being in charge is somewhat you know, being in charge is somewhat you know, being in charge is somewhat overstated. Like I love to actually have overstated. Like I love to actually have overstated. Like I love to actually have at least the mid-level organize the at least the mid-level organize the at least the mid-level organize the work, you know, resolve the conflicts work, you know, resolve the conflicts work, you know, resolve the conflicts that it can somewhat programmatically, that it can somewhat programmatically, that it can somewhat programmatically, probabilistically programmatically. Of probabilistically programmatically. Of probabilistically programmatically. Of course, the executive team maybe sets course, the executive team maybe sets course, the executive team maybe sets direction, the individual sort of direction, the individual sort of direction, the individual sort of decides on execution, but just the whole decides on execution, but just the whole decides on execution, but just the whole organization layer, which a lot of organization layer, which a lot of organization layer, which a lot of product managers historically did, product managers historically did, product managers historically did, should not be human. should not be human. should not be human. >> I mean, the great thing is um it doesn't >> I mean, the great thing is um it doesn't >> I mean, the great thing is um it doesn't have to be Do you know how uh Venkatesh have to be Do you know how uh Venkatesh have to be Do you know how uh Venkatesh Rao has this thing where it's like, you Rao has this thing where it's like, you Rao has this thing where it's like, you need to be above the API line? Like if need to be above the API line? Like if need to be above the API line? Like if Uber came out, like if you're an Uber Uber came out, like if you're an Uber Uber came out, like if you're an Uber driver, you're below the API line. Like driver, you're below the API line. Like driver, you're below the API line. Like you should be fighting to be above the you should be fighting to be above the you should be fighting to be above the API line. I actually think AI erases the API line. I actually think AI erases the API line. I actually think AI erases the API line. Um like one of the funniest API line. Um like one of the funniest API line. Um like one of the funniest things I saw recently is uh there's a things I saw recently is uh there's a things I saw recently is uh there's a API company um that we funded called API company um that we funded called API company um that we funded called Kolabtree, Kolabtree, Kolabtree, and they released a um and they released a um and they released a um a bug report endpoint that is not for a bug report endpoint that is not for a bug report endpoint that is not for humans to use, it's for agents who use humans to use, it's for agents who use humans to use, it's for agents who use their software to use. And there's an their software to use. And there's an their software to use. And there's an LLM where it's like if there's a bug in LLM where it's like if there's a bug in LLM where it's like if there's a bug in the software, the software, the software, um um um it like the bug report goes, but then it it like the bug report goes, but then it it like the bug report goes, but then it replies real time. replies real time. replies real time. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> And it's like, actually like, that's a >> And it's like, actually like, that's a >> And it's like, actually like, that's a good bug, we filed it, we're going to good bug, we filed it, we're going to good bug, we filed it, we're going to fix it next week, but also like try this fix it next week, but also like try this fix it next week, but also like try this workaround. workaround. workaround. >> Wow. >> Wow. >> Wow. >> And then like, I can't get that out of >> And then like, I can't get that out of >> And then like, I can't get that out of my head because you could imagine um my head because you could imagine um my head because you could imagine um that could be how companies work, right? that could be how companies work, right? that could be how companies work, right? Um Um Um like instead of being below the API line like instead of being below the API line like instead of being below the API line and having to do what like, I don't and having to do what like, I don't and having to do what like, I don't know, the API tells you to do. know, the API tells you to do. know, the API tells you to do. >> Mhm. >> Mhm. >> Mhm. >> Like this can be a back and forth >> Like this can be a back and forth >> Like this can be a back and forth >> Mhm. >> Mhm. >> Mhm. >> actually. And then I always think about >> actually. And then I always think about >> actually. And then I always think about um you the reason why cars in the '80s um you the reason why cars in the '80s um you the reason why cars in the '80s got so good in Japan got so good in Japan got so good in Japan >> Mhm. >> Mhm. >> Mhm. >> was uh it was actually a management >> was uh it was actually a management >> was uh it was actually a management technique. Like they realized the Toyota technique. Like they realized the Toyota technique. Like they realized the Toyota production system production system production system >> That's right. >> That's right. >> That's right. >> meant that like if you are the person >> meant that like if you are the person >> meant that like if you are the person doing the work on the line, you should doing the work on the line, you should doing the work on the line, you should be allowed to change the line because be allowed to change the line because be allowed to change the line because you are the person with the most amount you are the person with the most amount you are the person with the most amount of contacts of contacts of contacts >> Yes. >> Yes. >> Yes. >> to be able to improve your own working >> to be able to improve your own working >> to be able to improve your own working situation. And that's why American cars situation. And that's why American cars situation. And that's why American cars really started sucking and why Japanese really started sucking and why Japanese really started sucking and why Japanese cars became absolutely incredible. It's cars became absolutely incredible. It's cars became absolutely incredible. It's like this very subtle simple way that like this very subtle simple way that like this very subtle simple way that actually empowers the worker. And so actually empowers the worker. And so actually empowers the worker. And so there's a sort of like mix that I think there's a sort of like mix that I think there's a sort of like mix that I think is interesting. is interesting. is interesting. >> interesting cuz what's traditionally >> interesting cuz what's traditionally >> interesting cuz what's traditionally seen as a hierarchical society came up seen as a hierarchical society came up seen as a hierarchical society came up with this very bottom-up way of working with this very bottom-up way of working with this very bottom-up way of working which led to like arguably a 40-year which led to like arguably a 40-year which led to like arguably a 40-year generational run because of process generational run because of process generational run because of process power. power. power. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. Which is beautiful. Which is beautiful. Which is beautiful. >> How How many As you think about kind of >> How How many As you think about kind of >> How How many As you think about kind of our evolution towards this vision, how our evolution towards this vision, how our evolution towards this vision, how many of these problems do you think are many of these problems do you think are many of these problems do you think are intelligence-bound? intelligence-bound? intelligence-bound? Like we need smarter models versus there Like we need smarter models versus there Like we need smarter models versus there will be other attributes of models that will be other attributes of models that will be other attributes of models that will unlock success. will unlock success. will unlock success. >> I mean, honestly, it's all human >> I mean, honestly, it's all human >> I mean, honestly, it's all human >> Uh >> Uh >> Uh >> humans are the ones who are going to >> humans are the ones who are going to >> humans are the ones who are going to like slow this down. like slow this down. like slow this down. >> And then >> And then >> And then >> Um >> Um >> Um >> actually I'm realizing this might be a >> actually I'm realizing this might be a >> actually I'm realizing this might be a white pill. white pill. white pill. >> Okay. >> Okay. >> Okay. >> So if you look at like the tenor of >> So if you look at like the tenor of >> So if you look at like the tenor of what's going on just broadly in the what's going on just broadly in the what's going on just broadly in the discourse about AI, it's all like this discourse about AI, it's all like this discourse about AI, it's all like this sort of doom and gloom like all sort of doom and gloom like all sort of doom and gloom like all white-collar jobs are going to go away. white-collar jobs are going to go away. white-collar jobs are going to go away. There's going to be a permanent There's going to be a permanent There's going to be a permanent underclass. underclass. underclass. >> Yes. >> Yes. >> Yes. >> And then >> And then >> And then uh uh uh funny enough what I think is funny enough what I think is funny enough what I think is >> Um >> Um >> Um >> all of the bureaucracy and the slowness >> all of the bureaucracy and the slowness >> all of the bureaucracy and the slowness and the seven plus or minus two and the seven plus or minus two and the seven plus or minus two >> Uh >> Uh >> Uh >> of like every company, every >> of like every company, every >> of like every company, every institution, every organization, all the institution, every organization, all the institution, every organization, all the middle managers in the world. middle managers in the world. middle managers in the world. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> That is actually the white pill. >> That is actually the white pill. >> That is actually the white pill. >> 100%. >> 100%. >> 100%. >> So >> So >> So you know you know you know these things are going to be slower than these things are going to be slower than these things are going to be slower than you think. you think. you think. >> Yes. >> Yes. >> Yes. >> Right? Uh I looked at you know, we had >> Right? Uh I looked at you know, we had >> Right? Uh I looked at you know, we had 7,000 people. Most of them were 18 to 22 7,000 people. Most of them were 18 to 22 7,000 people. Most of them were 18 to 22 years old. years old. years old. >> Amazing. >> Amazing. >> Amazing. >> And I looked in their faces and like >> And I looked in their faces and like >> And I looked in their faces and like they're all AI native. Like they were they're all AI native. Like they were they're all AI native. Like they were born more or less like, you know, they born more or less like, you know, they born more or less like, you know, they became adults in the time of ChatGPT. became adults in the time of ChatGPT. became adults in the time of ChatGPT. >> Yes. >> Yes. >> Yes. >> Uh and it's going to you know, and for >> Uh and it's going to you know, and for >> Uh and it's going to you know, and for us it's like now we, you know, run us it's like now we, you know, run us it's like now we, you know, run which is nice. which is nice. which is nice. >> That's great, right? >> That's great, right? >> That's great, right? >> But, you know, imagine us like 20 years >> But, you know, imagine us like 20 years >> But, you know, imagine us like 20 years ago. Like, you know, we were the ones ago. Like, you know, we were the ones ago. Like, you know, we were the ones who were native to the web. We were the who were native to the web. We were the who were native to the web. We were the ones who were native to mobile. Um and ones who were native to mobile. Um and ones who were native to mobile. Um and then now we run so then all of then now we run so then all of then now we run so then all of society runs on the things that we society runs on the things that we society runs on the things that we expected from when we were 18 to 22. So, expected from when we were 18 to 22. So, expected from when we were 18 to 22. So, I think that, you know, the white pill I think that, you know, the white pill I think that, you know, the white pill to me is like it's going to be 20 years to me is like it's going to be 20 years to me is like it's going to be 20 years and that's not a bad thing. That's and that's not a bad thing. That's and that's not a bad thing. That's actually a good thing. actually a good thing. actually a good thing. >> Yes. >> Yes. >> Yes. >> Um like society is way slower than you >> Um like society is way slower than you >> Um like society is way slower than you think. Government is way slower than you think. Government is way slower than you think. Government is way slower than you think. Every company in the world is way think. Every company in the world is way think. Every company in the world is way slower than you think. slower than you think. slower than you think. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Um and there are real motes to these >> Um and there are real motes to these >> Um and there are real motes to these things. Like there are structural things. Like there are structural things. Like there are structural reasons why a Microsoft isn't going reasons why a Microsoft isn't going reasons why a Microsoft isn't going anywhere. anywhere. anywhere. >> Yes. >> Yes. >> Yes. >> Um and then I guess this is sort of a >> Um and then I guess this is sort of a >> Um and then I guess this is sort of a little antithetical to what most, you little antithetical to what most, you little antithetical to what most, you know, most people in Silicon Valley know, most people in Silicon Valley know, most people in Silicon Valley would say like, "I want to start up to would say like, "I want to start up to would say like, "I want to start up to replace all of them." replace all of them." replace all of them." >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Uh and the reality is like they won't, >> Uh and the reality is like they won't, >> Uh and the reality is like they won't, you know? you know? you know? >> They won't. I love it. Okay, I have two >> They won't. I love it. Okay, I have two >> They won't. I love it. Okay, I have two more questions for you. Um you know, one more questions for you. Um you know, one more questions for you. Um you know, one on this kind of sort of trying to on this kind of sort of trying to on this kind of sort of trying to envision the near future, what do you envision the near future, what do you envision the near future, what do you think the next computer looks like? What think the next computer looks like? What think the next computer looks like? What does a new computer look like? does a new computer look like? does a new computer look like? >> Oh, man. >> Oh, man. >> Oh, man. I think in the short term it'll probably I think in the short term it'll probably I think in the short term it'll probably keep looking like the way it is, but it keep looking like the way it is, but it keep looking like the way it is, but it seems inconceivable that um it'll stay seems inconceivable that um it'll stay seems inconceivable that um it'll stay that form factor. Like it's pretty that form factor. Like it's pretty that form factor. Like it's pretty clearly going to be voice. clearly going to be voice. clearly going to be voice. >> Yes. >> Yes. >> Yes. >> I think there's a lot around memory. Um >> I think there's a lot around memory. Um >> I think there's a lot around memory. Um it's going to take a while to you know, it's going to take a while to you know, it's going to take a while to you know, to we're we're at this moment where to we're we're at this moment where to we're we're at this moment where everyone's sort of happy with ChatGPT or everyone's sort of happy with ChatGPT or everyone's sort of happy with ChatGPT or Claude Co-work or whatever it is. Claude Co-work or whatever it is. Claude Co-work or whatever it is. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Um >> Um >> Um but I don't think they will be in the but I don't think they will be in the but I don't think they will be in the long term. Like, um long term. Like, um long term. Like, um I think you're going to want a lot more I think you're going to want a lot more I think you're going to want a lot more context, and you're going to want like context, and you're going to want like context, and you're going to want like all watched over by machines of living all watched over by machines of living all watched over by machines of living grace. Like, you're going to want this grace. Like, you're going to want this grace. Like, you're going to want this thing that uh is benevolent, knows about thing that uh is benevolent, knows about thing that uh is benevolent, knows about like your hopes, fears, and desires, and like your hopes, fears, and desires, and like your hopes, fears, and desires, and then is sort of like relentlessly then is sort of like relentlessly then is sort of like relentlessly searching to help you in that way. And searching to help you in that way. And searching to help you in that way. And that's actually going to be really that's actually going to be really that's actually going to be really exciting. And you know, the path through exciting. And you know, the path through exciting. And you know, the path through that will probably be like computer use, that will probably be like computer use, that will probably be like computer use, memory, like uh diarization, like memory, like uh diarization, like memory, like uh diarization, like ingestion, like um ingestion, like um ingestion, like um Yeah, I mean Yeah, I mean Yeah, I mean I think there's going to be a lot there. I think there's going to be a lot there. I think there's going to be a lot there. And uh you know, the cool thing is And uh you know, the cool thing is And uh you know, the cool thing is it's actually going to take longer. it's actually going to take longer. it's actually going to take longer. Like, this isn't a Like, I don't think Like, this isn't a Like, I don't think Like, this isn't a Like, I don't think people are even talking about this now. people are even talking about this now. people are even talking about this now. My guess is like next year, 2027, will My guess is like next year, 2027, will My guess is like next year, 2027, will be like the harness wars. be like the harness wars. be like the harness wars. >> Yes. >> Yes. >> Yes. >> You know, and then uh but it's really a >> You know, and then uh but it's really a >> You know, and then uh but it's really a cost thing. Like, it's just too cost thing. Like, it's just too cost thing. Like, it's just too expensive right now, expensive right now, expensive right now, >> Yes. >> Yes. >> Yes. >> you know? Um >> you know? Um >> you know? Um but it won't be it Like, there will be a but it won't be it Like, there will be a but it won't be it Like, there will be a war for a billion consumers war for a billion consumers war for a billion consumers >> Yes. >> Yes. >> Yes. >> uh right when like the frontier pure >> uh right when like the frontier pure >> uh right when like the frontier pure model compute of today model compute of today model compute of today >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> will be like maybe 50 or 100 bucks in >> will be like maybe 50 or 100 bucks in >> will be like maybe 50 or 100 bucks in like two or three years. like two or three years. like two or three years. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> And then that will be when like the most >> And then that will be when like the most >> And then that will be when like the most few the browser wars will be back on. few the browser wars will be back on. few the browser wars will be back on. >> Yes. Yes. Well, we're already seeing it >> Yes. Yes. Well, we're already seeing it >> Yes. Yes. Well, we're already seeing it like the price per token of frontier is like the price per token of frontier is like the price per token of frontier is going to infinity. Like, my thesis is going to infinity. Like, my thesis is going to infinity. Like, my thesis is infinity dollars a token, you can't have infinity dollars a token, you can't have infinity dollars a token, you can't have it. And the price per token of the model it. And the price per token of the model it. And the price per token of the model that was frontier a week ago is that was frontier a week ago is that was frontier a week ago is collapsing to zero. And I actually think collapsing to zero. And I actually think collapsing to zero. And I actually think to me that is a huge white pill for a to me that is a huge white pill for a to me that is a huge white pill for a lot of reasons. You know, one of the lot of reasons. You know, one of the lot of reasons. You know, one of the most important of which is just we need most important of which is just we need most important of which is just we need more consumer AI software. And in a more consumer AI software. And in a more consumer AI software. And in a world where most consumer products are world where most consumer products are world where most consumer products are free to try, you just can't do that when free to try, you just can't do that when free to try, you just can't do that when you have really high costs of you have really high costs of you have really high costs of incremental distribution. The magic of incremental distribution. The magic of incremental distribution. The magic of software is zero cost incremental software is zero cost incremental software is zero cost incremental distribution. distribution. distribution. We have these magical primitives. Like, We have these magical primitives. Like, We have these magical primitives. Like, we have computers that are emotive and we have computers that are emotive and we have computers that are emotive and have emotional texture for the first have emotional texture for the first have emotional texture for the first time in 40 or 50 years. What a tragedy time in 40 or 50 years. What a tragedy time in 40 or 50 years. What a tragedy that we haven't built more ambitious that we haven't built more ambitious that we haven't built more ambitious consumer products yet. consumer products yet. consumer products yet. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> So, I'm really excited for this sort of >> So, I'm really excited for this sort of >> So, I'm really excited for this sort of changing economics of models to unlock changing economics of models to unlock changing economics of models to unlock these new categories. these new categories. these new categories. >> I mean and we're so early. Like I was >> I mean and we're so early. Like I was >> I mean and we're so early. Like I was convinced that convinced that convinced that like being becoming a convert to open like being becoming a convert to open like being becoming a convert to open claw made me very very convinced that it claw made me very very convinced that it claw made me very very convinced that it was going to happen right away and then was going to happen right away and then was going to happen right away and then at this point I'm like that's not at this point I'm like that's not at this point I'm like that's not correct at all. Like correct at all. Like correct at all. Like >> Yeah. Well, you should try the new chat >> Yeah. Well, you should try the new chat >> Yeah. Well, you should try the new chat GPT desktop app actually has got a voice GPT desktop app actually has got a voice GPT desktop app actually has got a voice mode and it's sort of it's an operator mode and it's sort of it's an operator mode and it's sort of it's an operator or a concierge that can see all your or a concierge that can see all your or a concierge that can see all your threads. threads. threads. >> Oh, cool. >> Oh, cool. >> Oh, cool. >> And you can access it from your phone. >> And you can access it from your phone. >> And you can access it from your phone. It's very open claw-ish and I'm sure It's very open claw-ish and I'm sure It's very open claw-ish and I'm sure Peter had his hands all over it. To me Peter had his hands all over it. To me Peter had his hands all over it. To me it's the closest thing we've seen yet to it's the closest thing we've seen yet to it's the closest thing we've seen yet to a true consumer assistant. a true consumer assistant. a true consumer assistant. >> Oh, I can see it's awesome. >> Oh, I can see it's awesome. >> Oh, I can see it's awesome. >> Yeah, yeah. Chat GPT always had like >> Yeah, yeah. Chat GPT always had like >> Yeah, yeah. Chat GPT always had like basically the best memory. So I got to basically the best memory. So I got to basically the best memory. So I got to try it again. try it again. try it again. >> They've done a great job. >> They've done a great job. >> They've done a great job. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Okay, last question >> Okay, last question >> Okay, last question you know, we talked a lot about kind of you know, we talked a lot about kind of you know, we talked a lot about kind of utopian visions for the world and utopian visions for the world and utopian visions for the world and problems that are maybe intelligence problems that are maybe intelligence problems that are maybe intelligence bound. You've also put a lot of energy bound. You've also put a lot of energy bound. You've also put a lot of energy into sort of local politics and doing into sort of local politics and doing into sort of local politics and doing things I think are very pro-social, but things I think are very pro-social, but things I think are very pro-social, but it seems like more of those problems are it seems like more of those problems are it seems like more of those problems are human coordination bound. human coordination bound. human coordination bound. >> Oh, definitely. >> Oh, definitely. >> Oh, definitely. >> Yeah, how do you get energy to do that >> Yeah, how do you get energy to do that >> Yeah, how do you get energy to do that work? You know, is there a white pill work? You know, is there a white pill work? You know, is there a white pill for that aspect of our society? Maybe for that aspect of our society? Maybe for that aspect of our society? Maybe talk a bit about that. talk a bit about that. talk a bit about that. >> I mean the white pill is just believing >> I mean the white pill is just believing >> I mean the white pill is just believing that America still has rule of law and that America still has rule of law and that America still has rule of law and that that that people in government are trying to help people in government are trying to help people in government are trying to help and like somewhat earnest. Like it's not and like somewhat earnest. Like it's not and like somewhat earnest. Like it's not perfect. perfect. perfect. I think that the white pill for me I think that the white pill for me I think that the white pill for me recently was even just doing jury duty recently was even just doing jury duty recently was even just doing jury duty in San Francisco and to see like this in San Francisco and to see like this in San Francisco and to see like this orderly process of really a orderly process of really a orderly process of really a cross-section of San Francisco. cross-section of San Francisco. cross-section of San Francisco. One thing I realized was like actually One thing I realized was like actually One thing I realized was like actually we are a big part of the city. Like we are a big part of the city. Like we are a big part of the city. Like we're we're we're 10 20% of the people are like directly 10 20% of the people are like directly 10 20% of the people are like directly working in tech. working in tech. working in tech. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> And so um >> And so um >> And so um to see something that was to see something that was to see something that was I mean the judge was really good. I mean I mean the judge was really good. I mean I mean the judge was really good. I mean it was a horrible case, but like it was a horrible case, but like it was a horrible case, but like you know, government you know, government you know, government is not here to like ruin people. Like is not here to like ruin people. Like is not here to like ruin people. Like >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> And so and then at that point um we can >> And so and then at that point um we can >> And so and then at that point um we can vote. vote. vote. >> Yes. >> Yes. >> Yes. >> Like we actually have a say >> Like we actually have a say >> Like we actually have a say and then I think everything is and then I think everything is and then I think everything is downstream of media at that point. Like downstream of media at that point. Like downstream of media at that point. Like I think the San Francisco moment that I think the San Francisco moment that I think the San Francisco moment that got me very engaged was realizing got me very engaged was realizing got me very engaged was realizing you know Asian Americans are 25% of the you know Asian Americans are 25% of the you know Asian Americans are 25% of the voting populace about 30% of the voting populace about 30% of the voting populace about 30% of the population but during COVID like we had population but during COVID like we had population but during COVID like we had a district attorney who was turning a a district attorney who was turning a a district attorney who was turning a blind eye to some of the most heinous blind eye to some of the most heinous blind eye to some of the most heinous crimes against our elders crimes against our elders crimes against our elders and simultaneous to that we had a school and simultaneous to that we had a school and simultaneous to that we had a school board that was openly hostile against board that was openly hostile against board that was openly hostile against Asian American kids who just wanted to Asian American kids who just wanted to Asian American kids who just wanted to learn algebra in public middle school learn algebra in public middle school learn algebra in public middle school which hit me because which hit me because which hit me because I was that public school kid in Fremont I was that public school kid in Fremont I was that public school kid in Fremont in the East Bay. Like if I couldn't have in the East Bay. Like if I couldn't have in the East Bay. Like if I couldn't have taken algebra in middle school, I taken algebra in middle school, I taken algebra in middle school, I couldn't take calculus by senior year. I couldn't take calculus by senior year. I couldn't take calculus by senior year. I wouldn't have been able to study wouldn't have been able to study wouldn't have been able to study engineering at Stanford and I wouldn't engineering at Stanford and I wouldn't engineering at Stanford and I wouldn't be here doing any of the things I get to be here doing any of the things I get to be here doing any of the things I get to do today and I'm like oh okay now now do today and I'm like oh okay now now do today and I'm like oh okay now now they've made it personal and like let me they've made it personal and like let me they've made it personal and like let me understand and it turned out to be like understand and it turned out to be like understand and it turned out to be like sort of all the same people the same sort of all the same people the same sort of all the same people the same people who want to destroy all the data people who want to destroy all the data people who want to destroy all the data same people who same people who same people who don't want to build any housing in don't want to build any housing in don't want to build any housing in anywhere in California or the world. anywhere in California or the world. anywhere in California or the world. Like it's sort of Nimbys who want to Like it's sort of Nimbys who want to Like it's sort of Nimbys who want to virtue signal who virtue signal who virtue signal who sort of have these ideologies that like sort of have these ideologies that like sort of have these ideologies that like don't square with mine. I mean as a don't square with mine. I mean as a don't square with mine. I mean as a builder you like well you know words builder you like well you know words builder you like well you know words have meaning like supply and demand have meaning like supply and demand have meaning like supply and demand exists markets exist like incentives exists markets exist like incentives exists markets exist like incentives exist and then exist and then exist and then you know I think that government is what you know I think that government is what you know I think that government is what you know when people like us don't speak you know when people like us don't speak you know when people like us don't speak up up up when we don't like pay attention and when we don't like pay attention and when we don't like pay attention and like hold our media accountable not just like hold our media accountable not just like hold our media accountable not just the government the government the government then things get very deranged and that's then things get very deranged and that's then things get very deranged and that's what San Francisco was I think around what San Francisco was I think around what San Francisco was I think around COVID and then just by COVID and then just by COVID and then just by sheer organization like this is I think sheer organization like this is I think sheer organization like this is I think that like the Chinese of the West Side that like the Chinese of the West Side that like the Chinese of the West Side organizing around algebra and organizing around algebra and organizing around algebra and you know you know you know the deaths of our elders the deaths of our elders the deaths of our elders going to farmers markets and like going to farmers markets and like going to farmers markets and like literally physically like telling each literally physically like telling each literally physically like telling each other they're killing us and they're other they're killing us and they're other they're killing us and they're killing us right um killing us right um killing us right um ABC News ABC News ABC News you know literally the meat the you know literally the meat the you know literally the meat the mainstream media mainstream media mainstream media TV channel of San Francisco and the Bay TV channel of San Francisco and the Bay TV channel of San Francisco and the Bay Area would not cover Area would not cover Area would not cover anti-Chinese and anti-Asian crime. anti-Chinese and anti-Asian crime. anti-Chinese and anti-Asian crime. And And And you know you know you know I I it's like unconscionable right like I I it's like unconscionable right like I I it's like unconscionable right like our institutions failed us and the great our institutions failed us and the great our institutions failed us and the great thing is like thing is like thing is like when the system becomes so odious you've when the system becomes so odious you've when the system becomes so odious you've got to put your body on it. I think that got to put your body on it. I think that got to put your body on it. I think that was Mario Savio. was Mario Savio. was Mario Savio. And it's kind of I mean it's ironic And it's kind of I mean it's ironic And it's kind of I mean it's ironic almost to like say that but on the other almost to like say that but on the other almost to like say that but on the other hand like that's what I believe like hand like that's what I believe like hand like that's what I believe like they can't do this to us and we're going they can't do this to us and we're going they can't do this to us and we're going to stop it. And even at like personal to stop it. And even at like personal to stop it. And even at like personal peril even at peril even at peril even at you know reputational cost like we you know reputational cost like we you know reputational cost like we should be willing to take that cost should be willing to take that cost should be willing to take that cost because that's our covenant with our because that's our covenant with our because that's our covenant with our fellow man and our fellow citizen you fellow man and our fellow citizen you fellow man and our fellow citizen you know and if we don't do it who's going know and if we don't do it who's going know and if we don't do it who's going to do it like nobody does it and I'm to do it like nobody does it and I'm to do it like nobody does it and I'm super proud of what we're doing in San super proud of what we're doing in San super proud of what we're doing in San Francisco because we have beat back that Francisco because we have beat back that Francisco because we have beat back that ideological ideological ideological set of people who like created this mess set of people who like created this mess set of people who like created this mess and you know it's not perfect in San and you know it's not perfect in San and you know it's not perfect in San Francisco but it's getting better. Francisco but it's getting better. Francisco but it's getting better. >> It's amazing right now. >> It's amazing right now. >> It's amazing right now. >> I mean I think I saw that Lori might be >> I mean I think I saw that Lori might be >> I mean I think I saw that Lori might be the most popular mayor or politician in the most popular mayor or politician in the most popular mayor or politician in the entire country. Yeah. Things have the entire country. Yeah. Things have the entire country. Yeah. Things have gotten so much better. Everybody sees it gotten so much better. Everybody sees it gotten so much better. Everybody sees it feels it in the vibe. Some people say I feels it in the vibe. Some people say I feels it in the vibe. Some people say I wonder why but I think for those of us wonder why but I think for those of us wonder why but I think for those of us who know we see that your sort of who know we see that your sort of who know we see that your sort of stewardship not just of the industry of stewardship not just of the industry of stewardship not just of the industry of the startup community of sort of the startup community of sort of the startup community of sort of technology but also of the community is technology but also of the community is technology but also of the community is one of the big catalysts. So thank you one of the big catalysts. So thank you one of the big catalysts. So thank you for doing that work. for doing that work. for doing that work. >> Thank you so much. Yeah. So and I think >> Thank you so much. Yeah. So and I think >> Thank you so much. Yeah. So and I think San Francisco should be the beacon for San Francisco should be the beacon for San Francisco should be the beacon for pushing this back in every blue city in pushing this back in every blue city in pushing this back in every blue city in America as you know I that's what Gary's America as you know I that's what Gary's America as you know I that's what Gary's list.org is basically like how do we list.org is basically like how do we list.org is basically like how do we take the lessons that we learned here take the lessons that we learned here take the lessons that we learned here and like LA needs this, New York needs and like LA needs this, New York needs and like LA needs this, New York needs this, Minneapolis needs this, Seattle this, Minneapolis needs this, Seattle this, Minneapolis needs this, Seattle needs this. needs this. needs this. >> Well, and also let's find you know to >> Well, and also let's find you know to >> Well, and also let's find you know to connect the two that sort of you know connect the two that sort of you know connect the two that sort of you know culture society and technology like culture society and technology like culture society and technology like let's find very local ways for the let's find very local ways for the let's find very local ways for the ambition that this technology unlocks to ambition that this technology unlocks to ambition that this technology unlocks to show up. You know, I was in London last show up. You know, I was in London last show up. You know, I was in London last week and you were talking a little bit week and you were talking a little bit week and you were talking a little bit what's possible. It's like hey, you what's possible. It's like hey, you what's possible. It's like hey, you don't have to have an American vision don't have to have an American vision don't have to have an American vision for how AI impacts your society. If you for how AI impacts your society. If you for how AI impacts your society. If you want the NHS to be incredible want the NHS to be incredible want the NHS to be incredible then like you can do that with this then like you can do that with this then like you can do that with this technology. So the kind of the technology. So the kind of the technology. So the kind of the opportunity for ambition to be very opportunity for ambition to be very opportunity for ambition to be very localized in our communities. I think is localized in our communities. I think is localized in our communities. I think is something really interesting. something really interesting. something really interesting. >> Yeah, and so yeah, act local like >> Yeah, and so yeah, act local like >> Yeah, and so yeah, act local like take care of the people right next to take care of the people right next to take care of the people right next to you like you know, I I think it's funny you like you know, I I think it's funny you like you know, I I think it's funny uh uh uh so many people get very very obsessed so many people get very very obsessed so many people get very very obsessed with national. I mean we want to look at with national. I mean we want to look at with national. I mean we want to look at national generally right now. It's like national generally right now. It's like national generally right now. It's like you know what? Like I care about San you know what? Like I care about San you know what? Like I care about San Francisco, I care about housing, I care Francisco, I care about housing, I care Francisco, I care about housing, I care about crime, I care about uh you know, about crime, I care about uh you know, about crime, I care about uh you know, treatment and recovery treatment and recovery treatment and recovery >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> and if we do that like we can have the >> and if we do that like we can have the >> and if we do that like we can have the society we want to live in and then you society we want to live in and then you society we want to live in and then you know, if we fix local like state and know, if we fix local like state and know, if we fix local like state and national will fix itself cuz like on a national will fix itself cuz like on a national will fix itself cuz like on a five or 10 year basis like the people five or 10 year basis like the people five or 10 year basis like the people who win up there like [music] they they who win up there like [music] they they who win up there like [music] they they will come up through a system that's will come up through a system that's will come up through a system that's functional and about saying no to things functional and about saying no to things functional and about saying no to things that don't make sense, about saying yes that don't make sense, about saying yes that don't make sense, about saying yes to the things that are awesome for the to the things that are awesome for the to the things that are awesome for the people. people. people. >> I love it. All right, Gary. First of >> I love it. All right, Gary. First of >> I love it. All right, Gary. First of many. Thanks, brother. [music] many. Thanks, brother. [music] many. Thanks, brother. [music] >> Thanks, bro. >> Thanks, bro. >> Thanks, bro. >> This is great. >> This is great. >> This is great. >> Cool. Yeah.