World's First Trillionaire, Anthropic Fable Banned, The New Oligarchs, Iran Peace Deal

All right, everybody. Welcome back to All right, everybody. Welcome back to the number one podcast in the world. the number one podcast in the world. the number one podcast in the world. It's the All-In podcast. The original It's the All-In podcast. The original It's the All-In podcast. The original quartet is here. Lazar, David Sacks. How quartet is here. Lazar, David Sacks. How quartet is here. Lazar, David Sacks. How you doing, brother? you doing, brother? you doing, brother? >> I'm good. >> I'm good. >> I'm good. >> You had a busy week. Got a long post >> You had a busy week. Got a long post >> You had a busy week. Got a long post from you on X. We'll get into it. from you on X. We'll get into it. from you on X. We'll get into it. >> [laughter] >> [laughter] >> [laughter] >> Wait, a lot of what? >> Wait, a lot of what? >> Wait, a lot of what? >> Long posting. >> Long posting. >> Long posting. A lot of long posts. A lot of long posts. A lot of long posts. >> I had like one long post. >> I had like one long post. >> I had like one long post. >> I know. How's the carpal tunnel going >> I know. How's the carpal tunnel going >> I know. How's the carpal tunnel going over there? You got two. Something like over there? You got two. Something like over there? You got two. Something like that. You got that carpal tunnel flaring that. You got that carpal tunnel flaring that. You got that carpal tunnel flaring up. up. up. >> I got a third one teed up, but I might >> I got a third one teed up, but I might >> I got a third one teed up, but I might use it on the use it on the use it on the >> You got one in the chamber? >> You got one in the chamber? >> You got one in the chamber? >> I got one in the chamber, but I was >> I got one in the chamber, but I was >> I got one in the chamber, but I was going to save it for the pod. It's a going to save it for the pod. It's a going to save it for the pod. It's a good one. good one. good one. >> Ooh, coming in hot. >> Ooh, coming in hot. >> Ooh, coming in hot. >> [laughter] >> [laughter] >> [laughter] >> I wonder who's going to get this bullet. >> We open sourced it to the fans, and >> We open sourced it to the fans, and they've just gone crazy with it. >> [music] >> [music] >> A cackling, of course. >> A cackling, of course. >> A cackling, of course. Who's [laughter] the dick in dictator? Who's [laughter] the dick in dictator? Who's [laughter] the dick in dictator? It's my bestie, Chamath. Holly Hopcatia. It's my bestie, Chamath. Holly Hopcatia. It's my bestie, Chamath. Holly Hopcatia. How you doing, brother? Getting ready How you doing, brother? Getting ready How you doing, brother? Getting ready for summer? Summer j'olais's have been for summer? Summer j'olais's have been for summer? Summer j'olais's have been laid on the bed. You're ready to pack it laid on the bed. You're ready to pack it laid on the bed. You're ready to pack it up. up. up. >> Opposite. I got a lot of travel. >> Opposite. I got a lot of travel. >> Opposite. I got a lot of travel. >> Grinding. >> Grinding. >> Grinding. Oh, I forgot. You're doing founder-led Oh, I forgot. You're doing founder-led Oh, I forgot. You're doing founder-led sales. So, the summer of relaxation's sales. So, the summer of relaxation's sales. So, the summer of relaxation's over. Now, he's in the CEO slot. Got to over. Now, he's in the CEO slot. Got to over. Now, he's in the CEO slot. Got to get out there and do those enterprise get out there and do those enterprise get out there and do those enterprise sales. And, of course, sales. And, of course, sales. And, of course, coming off a pretty hot week. coming off a pretty hot week. coming off a pretty hot week. Comment section was on fire. Very Comment section was on fire. Very Comment section was on fire. Very pro-Freeberg. Very very Freeberg. pro-Freeberg. Very very Freeberg. pro-Freeberg. Very very Freeberg. Perhaps his greatest performance. Also Perhaps his greatest performance. Also Perhaps his greatest performance. Also >> Greatest. >> Greatest. >> Greatest. >> the first performance when he said more >> the first performance when he said more >> the first performance when he said more than three sentences. What's going on, than three sentences. What's going on, than three sentences. What's going on, Freeberg? You went off last episode. And Freeberg? You went off last episode. And Freeberg? You went off last episode. And And then, I think you also with the long And then, I think you also with the long And then, I think you also with the long posts. posts. posts. >> You know what's so funny? As the >> You know what's so funny? As the >> You know what's so funny? As the valuation of Ohalo ticks up, he gets valuation of Ohalo ticks up, he gets valuation of Ohalo ticks up, he gets more and more based. I I it. more and more based. I I it. more and more based. I I it. >> He is getting >> He is getting >> He is getting >> Welcome to the club. >> Welcome to the club. >> Welcome to the club. Welcome to the club. Welcome to the club. Welcome to the club. >> He's got trace commas based. >> He's got trace commas based. >> He's got trace commas based. >> Unleash the beast. >> Unleash the beast. >> Unleash the beast. >> When you're just a mere singleton, you >> When you're just a mere singleton, you >> When you're just a mere singleton, you kind of just keep it to yourself and kind of just keep it to yourself and kind of just keep it to yourself and then all of a sudden you start then all of a sudden you start then all of a sudden you start >> All of a sudden you're like a >> All of a sudden you're like a >> All of a sudden you're like a nine-figure Friedberg, he's like, I got nine-figure Friedberg, he's like, I got nine-figure Friedberg, he's like, I got something to lose. something to lose. something to lose. >> Wait for 10-figure Friedberg. >> Wait for 10-figure Friedberg. >> Wait for 10-figure Friedberg. >> 10-figure Friedberg's like, "YOLO." >> 10-figure Friedberg's like, "YOLO." >> 10-figure Friedberg's like, "YOLO." You also with the long posts. You and You also with the long posts. You and You also with the long posts. You and Nancy Pelosi making sweet, sweet quotes Nancy Pelosi making sweet, sweet quotes Nancy Pelosi making sweet, sweet quotes with her. with her. with her. >> He's starting TO >> He's starting TO >> He's starting TO >> WHAT'S HAPPENING? >> WHAT'S HAPPENING? >> WHAT'S HAPPENING? >> [laughter] >> WHAT IS BEING FORMED IN THE UNITED >> WHAT IS BEING FORMED IN THE UNITED STATES RIGHT now is the greatest STATES RIGHT now is the greatest STATES RIGHT now is the greatest [laughter] American Politburo, okay? The [laughter] American Politburo, okay? The [laughter] American Politburo, okay? The great American Politburo has formed. The great American Politburo has formed. The great American Politburo has formed. The new oligarchs are taking their seats. new oligarchs are taking their seats. new oligarchs are taking their seats. The great The great American Politburo The great The great American Politburo The great The great American Politburo is being formed. is being formed. is being formed. The new oligarchs are taking their The new oligarchs are taking their The new oligarchs are taking their seats. They're arranging the chairs. seats. They're arranging the chairs. seats. They're arranging the chairs. They're determining who will be chairman They're determining who will be chairman They're determining who will be chairman of the Politburo, who will assign what of the Politburo, who will assign what of the Politburo, who will assign what work force to do what efforts for them, work force to do what efforts for them, work force to do what efforts for them, which $600 million stock trades their which $600 million stock trades their which $600 million stock trades their families will make to benefit and enrich families will make to benefit and enrich families will make to benefit and enrich themselves as they fly around in their themselves as they fly around in their themselves as they fly around in their private jets on the taxpayers' money, private jets on the taxpayers' money, private jets on the taxpayers' money, and we're watching it all before our and we're watching it all before our and we're watching it all before our very eyes as individual liberties are very eyes as individual liberties are very eyes as individual liberties are eroded. I am fired up about it. I see it eroded. I am fired up about it. I see it eroded. I am fired up about it. I see it happening. happening. happening. >> You know, Sachs is on the show this >> You know, Sachs is on the show this >> You know, Sachs is on the show this week. You can't just take strays like week. You can't just take strays like week. You can't just take strays like that. Friedberg, expand on who the that. Friedberg, expand on who the that. Friedberg, expand on who the Politburo is. Politburo is. Politburo is. >> Yeah, so So, basically, the The >> Yeah, so So, basically, the The >> Yeah, so So, basically, the The Politburo is the leaders who elect Politburo is the leaders who elect Politburo is the leaders who elect themselves to dictate the flow of the themselves to dictate the flow of the themselves to dictate the flow of the economy, the allocation of capital, what economy, the allocation of capital, what economy, the allocation of capital, what work individual they're allowed to do, work individual they're allowed to do, work individual they're allowed to do, and what what activities they're allowed and what what activities they're allowed and what what activities they're allowed to do in an unfree society, which is to do in an unfree society, which is to do in an unfree society, which is what they're creating. They are the true what they're creating. They are the true what they're creating. They are the true oligarchs, and this is Elizabeth Warren, oligarchs, and this is Elizabeth Warren, oligarchs, and this is Elizabeth Warren, Bernie Sanders, Ro Khanna. This is the Bernie Sanders, Ro Khanna. This is the Bernie Sanders, Ro Khanna. This is the the group that is trying to coalesce the group that is trying to coalesce the group that is trying to coalesce power power power and create for themselves a system and create for themselves a system and create for themselves a system whereby they have greater influence, whereby they have greater influence, whereby they have greater influence, greater control over aspects of the greater control over aspects of the greater control over aspects of the economy. They want to seize the means of economy. They want to seize the means of economy. They want to seize the means of production. They want to control production. They want to control production. They want to control education. They want to control media. education. They want to control media. education. They want to control media. And anytime there's an effort by an And anytime there's an effort by an And anytime there's an effort by an individual enterprise or an individual individual enterprise or an individual individual enterprise or an individual themselves to go out and build a themselves to go out and build a themselves to go out and build a business and succeed and do something business and succeed and do something business and succeed and do something that's outside of their scope and their that's outside of their scope and their that's outside of their scope and their span of control, they lose their minds span of control, they lose their minds span of control, they lose their minds over it. And that's what we're seeing. over it. And that's what we're seeing. over it. And that's what we're seeing. So, I react to their tweeting and their So, I react to their tweeting and their So, I react to their tweeting and their [ __ ] [ __ ] [ __ ] where they're basically trying to where they're basically trying to where they're basically trying to contort things about inequality and contort things about inequality and contort things about inequality and fairness and justice when the truth is fairness and justice when the truth is fairness and justice when the truth is they are the rising empire, the evil they are the rising empire, the evil they are the rising empire, the evil empire in Star Wars. They are empire in Star Wars. They are empire in Star Wars. They are the folks who want to take from all of the folks who want to take from all of the folks who want to take from all of us us us what we were endowed with when this what we were endowed with when this what we were endowed with when this nation was started and what many people nation was started and what many people nation was started and what many people came to this country for, which is came to this country for, which is came to this country for, which is individual freedom and liberty. The individual freedom and liberty. The individual freedom and liberty. The ability to build a business in peace, ability to build a business in peace, ability to build a business in peace, the ability to make decisions, to do the ability to make decisions, to do the ability to make decisions, to do what you want with your own assets and what you want with your own assets and what you want with your own assets and to have functionally private property. to have functionally private property. to have functionally private property. And they're taking it all away and And they're taking it all away and And they're taking it all away and they're trying to take it all away and they're trying to take it all away and they're trying to take it all away and we're watching piece by piece, step by we're watching piece by piece, step by we're watching piece by piece, step by step. So, they are forming a politburo step. So, they are forming a politburo step. So, they are forming a politburo where they can effectively control the where they can effectively control the where they can effectively control the economy, control education, control economy, control education, control economy, control education, control [clears throat] the media, and tell us [clears throat] the media, and tell us [clears throat] the media, and tell us all what we can and can't do and say. all what we can and can't do and say. all what we can and can't do and say. And it's frustrating to me to watch it And it's frustrating to me to watch it And it's frustrating to me to watch it because it's masqueraded as [ __ ] because it's masqueraded as [ __ ] because it's masqueraded as [ __ ] virtue, as justice, as equity. It's a virtue, as justice, as equity. It's a virtue, as justice, as equity. It's a bunch of [ __ ] nonsense words that bunch of [ __ ] nonsense words that bunch of [ __ ] nonsense words that they use to try and make themselves seem they use to try and make themselves seem they use to try and make themselves seem virtuous when in the end of the day they virtuous when in the end of the day they virtuous when in the end of the day they are fundamentally evil. And I hate are fundamentally evil. And I hate are fundamentally evil. And I hate watching it. So, that's why I react so watching it. So, that's why I react so watching it. So, that's why I react so aggressively to it. Freeberg, you I aggressively to it. Freeberg, you I aggressively to it. Freeberg, you I think you said something that's really think you said something that's really think you said something that's really important, which is they they present it important, which is they they present it important, which is they they present it as virtue. as virtue. as virtue. >> That's right. >> That's right. >> That's right. >> Put yourself in the >> Put yourself in the >> Put yourself in the body body body of a person that's probably middle of of a person that's probably middle of of a person that's probably middle of the roadish but is falling for it. the roadish but is falling for it. the roadish but is falling for it. Why do you think they're falling for it? Why do you think they're falling for it? Why do you think they're falling for it? >> Because they have needs and wants and >> Because they have needs and wants and >> Because they have needs and wants and desires individually desires individually desires individually that this person is saying this system, that this person is saying this system, that this person is saying this system, this evil empire, will give to you. this evil empire, will give to you. this evil empire, will give to you. If you take the knee, we will give you If you take the knee, we will give you If you take the knee, we will give you the education for free. We will give you the education for free. We will give you the education for free. We will give you the child care for free. We will give the child care for free. We will give the child care for free. We will give you the food for free. We will give you you the food for free. We will give you you the food for free. We will give you the the paycheck every week. We will the the paycheck every week. We will the the paycheck every week. We will give you We will give you We will give give you We will give you We will give give you We will give you We will give you. Those promises in a democratic you. Those promises in a democratic you. Those promises in a democratic system like this or in a fake democratic system like this or in a fake democratic system like this or in a fake democratic system like this are what make people system like this are what make people system like this are what make people feel like the the virtuous feel like the the virtuous feel like the the virtuous uh offerings will align with their uh offerings will align with their uh offerings will align with their individual needs and wants. And I think individual needs and wants. And I think individual needs and wants. And I think that that's why people say like, "Okay, that that's why people say like, "Okay, that that's why people say like, "Okay, that's good. Free child care for all." that's good. Free child care for all." that's good. Free child care for all." There is inequality in the world. There There is inequality in the world. There There is inequality in the world. There is disparity in wealth. There is is disparity in wealth. There is is disparity in wealth. There is disparity in asset ownership. And your disparity in asset ownership. And your disparity in asset ownership. And your solution solution solution despite despite despite you know, the the loss of liberty along you know, the the loss of liberty along you know, the the loss of liberty along the way and the loss of economic the way and the loss of economic the way and the loss of economic mobility that arises from what you're mobility that arises from what you're mobility that arises from what you're offering. And this is really key. offering. And this is really key. offering. And this is really key. People don't realize the value of the People don't realize the value of the People don't realize the value of the United States United States United States the power of this nation was to give the power of this nation was to give the power of this nation was to give people individual liberty which which people individual liberty which which people individual liberty which which unlocks agency unlocks agency unlocks agency to progress yourself. To educate to progress yourself. To educate to progress yourself. To educate yourself, to make money, to give yourself, to make money, to give yourself, to make money, to give yourself more assets and more freedom yourself more assets and more freedom yourself more assets and more freedom and more flexibility than you had. and more flexibility than you had. and more flexibility than you had. Economic mobility is the key to the Economic mobility is the key to the Economic mobility is the key to the United States. You do not get economic United States. You do not get economic United States. You do not get economic mobility if the government is giving you mobility if the government is giving you mobility if the government is giving you a job or giving you money. You lose a job or giving you money. You lose a job or giving you money. You lose economic mobility. You become indentured economic mobility. You become indentured economic mobility. You become indentured to the government. Everyone wants more. to the government. Everyone wants more. to the government. Everyone wants more. Everyone wants something that they don't Everyone wants something that they don't Everyone wants something that they don't have. But the truth is that the more the have. But the truth is that the more the have. But the truth is that the more the government is giving it to you, the less government is giving it to you, the less government is giving it to you, the less you have mobility. The more you are you have mobility. The more you are you have mobility. The more you are indentured, the more you are enslaved, indentured, the more you are enslaved, indentured, the more you are enslaved, and the more we are uh limiting people's and the more we are uh limiting people's and the more we are uh limiting people's uh ability uh ability uh ability to progress. And I think that that's to progress. And I think that that's to progress. And I think that that's what's really so frustrating for me is what's really so frustrating for me is what's really so frustrating for me is that people sign up to this to your that people sign up to this to your that people sign up to this to your point, Chamath, and they're like, "Okay, point, Chamath, and they're like, "Okay, point, Chamath, and they're like, "Okay, that's great. I I get to have this and I that's great. I I get to have this and I that's great. I I get to have this and I get to have that and I get to have get to have that and I get to have get to have that and I get to have that." But at the end of the day, you're that." But at the end of the day, you're that." But at the end of the day, you're giving all of your liberties up. You're giving all of your liberties up. You're giving all of your liberties up. You're giving all of your progress up. You're giving all of your progress up. You're giving all of your progress up. You're giving all of your mobility. giving all of your mobility. giving all of your mobility. >> is what you're saying. And you're >> is what you're saying. And you're >> is what you're saying. And you're looking for them and you don't have looking for them and you don't have looking for them and you don't have agency to pursue your own personal agency to pursue your own personal agency to pursue your own personal freedom. Yeah? freedom. Yeah? freedom. Yeah? >> One thing I believe to be 100% true is >> One thing I believe to be 100% true is >> One thing I believe to be 100% true is that no human being that's ever been that no human being that's ever been that no human being that's ever been alive has ever lived up to their true alive has ever lived up to their true alive has ever lived up to their true capacity as a human. Like human agency capacity as a human. Like human agency capacity as a human. Like human agency is limitless. is limitless. is limitless. >> Limitless. >> Limitless. >> Limitless. >> Limitless. And and the truth is like >> Limitless. And and the truth is like >> Limitless. And and the truth is like anytime that you create a system with anytime that you create a system with anytime that you create a system with the government that's giving people the government that's giving people the government that's giving people stuff, you are taking away people's stuff, you are taking away people's stuff, you are taking away people's agency. agency. agency. And so that is what is so so sad about And so that is what is so so sad about And so that is what is so so sad about the whole thing is like human agency is the whole thing is like human agency is the whole thing is like human agency is the one thing that we have unlimited the one thing that we have unlimited the one thing that we have unlimited capacity, unlimited, infinite upside. capacity, unlimited, infinite upside. capacity, unlimited, infinite upside. Every human does. And and to enshroud Every human does. And and to enshroud Every human does. And and to enshroud yourself in this government burden yourself in this government burden yourself in this government burden thinking that it is a relief. thinking that it is a relief. thinking that it is a relief. >> Well, then that creates learned >> Well, then that creates learned >> Well, then that creates learned helplessness cuz you're always looking helplessness cuz you're always looking helplessness cuz you're always looking to the government to solve your to the government to solve your to the government to solve your problems. problems. problems. >> The threshold for learned helplessness >> The threshold for learned helplessness >> The threshold for learned helplessness is is is far far lower than one may think. far far lower than one may think. far far lower than one may think. I grew up on welfare. I grew up on welfare. I grew up on welfare. And my mother was initially a And my mother was initially a And my mother was initially a housekeeper. housekeeper. housekeeper. And then she was a nurse's aide. And then she was a nurse's aide. And then she was a nurse's aide. She was probably making eight, nine, 10 She was probably making eight, nine, 10 She was probably making eight, nine, 10 bucks an hour. My father couldn't get a bucks an hour. My father couldn't get a bucks an hour. My father couldn't get a job. job. job. So we were on welfare. So we were on welfare. So we were on welfare. And welfare was probably 17, 18, 19 And welfare was probably 17, 18, 19 And welfare was probably 17, 18, 19 thousand dollars a year at the time in thousand dollars a year at the time in thousand dollars a year at the time in Canada. Canada. Canada. And it's a family of five. And it's a family of five. And it's a family of five. But it was just enough But it was just enough But it was just enough that my dad just spent this cycle that my dad just spent this cycle that my dad just spent this cycle between drinking and not working, between drinking and not working, between drinking and not working, drinking and not working. And he would drinking and not working. And he would drinking and not working. And he would try in bursts. try in bursts. try in bursts. And you know, I I think that it must And you know, I I think that it must And you know, I I think that it must have been deeply frustrating for him, have been deeply frustrating for him, have been deeply frustrating for him, obviously. So I want to be compassionate obviously. So I want to be compassionate obviously. So I want to be compassionate to the struggle that he went through. to the struggle that he went through. to the struggle that he went through. But man, I would have thought But man, I would have thought But man, I would have thought >> But >> But >> But >> 17,000 is not nearly enough support and >> 17,000 is not nearly enough support and >> 17,000 is not nearly enough support and so it would animate you so it would animate you so it would animate you to try to do whatever it took. But could to try to do whatever it took. But could to try to do whatever it took. But could he have gotten a job making eight, nine, he have gotten a job making eight, nine, he have gotten a job making eight, nine, 10 bucks an hour at a store? He could 10 bucks an hour at a store? He could 10 bucks an hour at a store? He could have. He chose not to. have. He chose not to. have. He chose not to. And so my recollection And so my recollection And so my recollection of being a ward of the state is that the of being a ward of the state is that the of being a ward of the state is that the threshold for that helplessness is far threshold for that helplessness is far threshold for that helplessness is far lower than one may think. lower than one may think. lower than one may think. >> Right. >> Right. >> Right. >> And then if you actually stack all these >> And then if you actually stack all these >> And then if you actually stack all these other things, other things, other things, people will just fall into their worst people will just fall into their worst people will just fall into their worst proclivities. proclivities. proclivities. And they will be a shell and a shadow of And they will be a shell and a shadow of And they will be a shell and a shadow of what they could be. My dad was, in my what they could be. My dad was, in my what they could be. My dad was, in my mind, a giant who had all this potential mind, a giant who had all this potential mind, a giant who had all this potential unfulfilled. unfulfilled. unfulfilled. And I keep that because I want a And I keep that because I want a And I keep that because I want a positive positive positive sense of who he was to me, despite all sense of who he was to me, despite all sense of who he was to me, despite all of the ups and downs and the stuff that of the ups and downs and the stuff that of the ups and downs and the stuff that he went through and how it did he went through and how it did he went through and how it did negatively affect me at times. negatively affect me at times. negatively affect me at times. But, man, if you want a whole country of But, man, if you want a whole country of But, man, if you want a whole country of those people, what happens when you're those people, what happens when you're those people, what happens when you're giving people 30, 40, 50, 60, 70, 80 giving people 30, 40, 50, 60, 70, 80 giving people 30, 40, 50, 60, 70, 80 thousand dollars a year of stuff? thousand dollars a year of stuff? thousand dollars a year of stuff? One, at some point you're not going to One, at some point you're not going to One, at some point you're not going to be able to pay for it. be able to pay for it. be able to pay for it. But, two, you're going to reduce people But, two, you're going to reduce people But, two, you're going to reduce people to a shell of what their potential is. to a shell of what their potential is. to a shell of what their potential is. And that is not good. I have lived it, And that is not good. I have lived it, And that is not good. I have lived it, and I am warning all of you, be careful and I am warning all of you, be careful and I am warning all of you, be careful what you wish for. what you wish for. what you wish for. >> Mhm. The flip side of it, by the way, as >> Mhm. The flip side of it, by the way, as >> Mhm. The flip side of it, by the way, as you point out, you can't pay for it. you point out, you can't pay for it. you point out, you can't pay for it. What ends up happening is the moment What ends up happening is the moment What ends up happening is the moment that we find ourselves in today, and we that we find ourselves in today, and we that we find ourselves in today, and we see it in and we'll talk about see it in and we'll talk about see it in and we'll talk about Pritzker's law in Illinois that passed Pritzker's law in Illinois that passed Pritzker's law in Illinois that passed this week. this week. this week. But, we are now at a moment where we are But, we are now at a moment where we are But, we are now at a moment where we are saying there is no longer private saying there is no longer private saying there is no longer private property in the United States. This is property in the United States. This is property in the United States. This is one of the foundational one of the foundational one of the foundational rights that the founders of the United rights that the founders of the United rights that the founders of the United States tried to create a distinction States tried to create a distinction States tried to create a distinction between these other between these other between these other nations that everyone flees from, where nations that everyone flees from, where nations that everyone flees from, where a monarchy or a totalitarian government a monarchy or a totalitarian government a monarchy or a totalitarian government or some communist system says everyone or some communist system says everyone or some communist system says everyone owns everything together or some small owns everything together or some small owns everything together or some small number of people own and control number of people own and control number of people own and control everything. And that's what this always everything. And that's what this always everything. And that's what this always comes down to, whether it's a socialist comes down to, whether it's a socialist comes down to, whether it's a socialist state or a communist state or a monarchy state or a communist state or a monarchy state or a communist state or a monarchy or some other totalitarian regime, or some other totalitarian regime, or some other totalitarian regime, there's a small number of people that there's a small number of people that there's a small number of people that own and control everything. And that is own and control everything. And that is own and control everything. And that is the brink that we're on because they are the brink that we're on because they are the brink that we're on because they are trying to say, for the first time ever, trying to say, for the first time ever, trying to say, for the first time ever, there is no longer private property in there is no longer private property in there is no longer private property in the United States. That if the the United States. That if the the United States. That if the government can say everything that government can say everything that government can say everything that you've already paid your income tax on you've already paid your income tax on you've already paid your income tax on and then you've bought and you now own, and then you've bought and you now own, and then you've bought and you now own, the government can take a piece of it the government can take a piece of it the government can take a piece of it every year based on the vote and the every year based on the vote and the every year based on the vote and the budgetary needs of an irresponsible budgetary needs of an irresponsible budgetary needs of an irresponsible fiscal legislature, fiscal legislature, fiscal legislature, we've lost it all. we've lost it all. we've lost it all. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> And that's where we [clears throat] are. >> And that's where we [clears throat] are. >> And that's where we [clears throat] are. And we see this it just passed in And we see this it just passed in And we see this it just passed in Illinois. People think it's just crypto, Illinois. People think it's just crypto, Illinois. People think it's just crypto, just like they think that with just like they think that with just like they think that with billionaire tax it's just billionaires. billionaire tax it's just billionaires. billionaire tax it's just billionaires. But anytime the government can take your But anytime the government can take your But anytime the government can take your private property after you've paid your private property after you've paid your private property after you've paid your taxes, bought something and put it in taxes, bought something and put it in taxes, bought something and put it in your garage, we are done for. your garage, we are done for. your garage, we are done for. >> Yeah, we're going to get >> Yeah, we're going to get >> Yeah, we're going to get >> Because that is that is when the >> Because that is that is when the >> Because that is that is when the Politburo has unlimited capacity to tax Politburo has unlimited capacity to tax Politburo has unlimited capacity to tax and take and do what they want. and take and do what they want. and take and do what they want. >> Here's That's the moment we're at. >> Here's That's the moment we're at. >> Here's That's the moment we're at. >> Well, and the the super sinister part to >> Well, and the the super sinister part to >> Well, and the the super sinister part to to dovetail what both of you are saying to dovetail what both of you are saying to dovetail what both of you are saying and to give some grace to your dad, and to give some grace to your dad, and to give some grace to your dad, Chamath, in the studies of learned Chamath, in the studies of learned Chamath, in the studies of learned helplessness for people who, you know, helplessness for people who, you know, helplessness for people who, you know, are trying to guess what that term is, are trying to guess what that term is, are trying to guess what that term is, who who haven't heard it before, a who who haven't heard it before, a who who haven't heard it before, a psychological condition, if you give psychological condition, if you give psychological condition, if you give people a hard problem to solve, like an people a hard problem to solve, like an people a hard problem to solve, like an impossible problem to solve, they don't impossible problem to solve, they don't impossible problem to solve, they don't solve it, then you give them easy solve it, then you give them easy solve it, then you give them easy problems to solve, they don't solve the problems to solve, they don't solve the problems to solve, they don't solve the easy ones, and they become depressed. easy ones, and they become depressed. easy ones, and they become depressed. And then they attribute their depression And then they attribute their depression And then they attribute their depression to themselves, they internalize it, in to themselves, they internalize it, in to themselves, they internalize it, in other words. If you give people easier other words. If you give people easier other words. If you give people easier problems to solve, uh and make them problems to solve, uh and make them problems to solve, uh and make them increasingly harder as you go, increasingly harder as you go, increasingly harder as you go, they become empowered. They have agency. they become empowered. They have agency. they become empowered. They have agency. They feel like they can solve problems. They feel like they can solve problems. They feel like they can solve problems. And then when they get stuck on And then when they get stuck on And then when they get stuck on something, they don't attribute it something, they don't attribute it something, they don't attribute it internally. internally. internally. And this is the why alcoholism is so And this is the why alcoholism is so And this is the why alcoholism is so pernicious in our society as well, is pernicious in our society as well, is pernicious in our society as well, is because when you start attributing it to because when you start attributing it to because when you start attributing it to yourself and then you start yourself and then you start yourself and then you start self-medicating, you try to dull these self-medicating, you try to dull these self-medicating, you try to dull these feelings cuz you're depressed. And I've feelings cuz you're depressed. And I've feelings cuz you're depressed. And I've had many friends who've gone through it, had many friends who've gone through it, had many friends who've gone through it, and family members. and family members. and family members. And this is why having agency is so And this is why having agency is so And this is why having agency is so important. This is why endless important. This is why endless important. This is why endless unemployment is so dangerous. unemployment is so dangerous. unemployment is so dangerous. Uh and you need to taper people off it, Uh and you need to taper people off it, Uh and you need to taper people off it, and you need to give them a chance to be and you need to give them a chance to be and you need to give them a chance to be successful. If your dad had taken that successful. If your dad had taken that successful. If your dad had taken that 10-12 dollar an hour job, he would have 10-12 dollar an hour job, he would have 10-12 dollar an hour job, he would have become the manager, then he would have become the manager, then he would have become the manager, then he would have become the owner of the place. become the owner of the place. become the owner of the place. >> So, the coda to your story is at some point I think, and I don't know at some point I think, and I don't know because my mom doesn't share this with because my mom doesn't share this with because my mom doesn't share this with me, there was some kind of me, there was some kind of me, there was some kind of breaking point because it was a really breaking point because it was a really breaking point because it was a really violent household, and then violent household, and then violent household, and then near the end of my high school career, near the end of my high school career, near the end of my high school career, when I left, things got I think when I left, things got I think when I left, things got I think materially better. And part of it was materially better. And part of it was materially better. And part of it was because he got a job. because he got a job. because he got a job. >> Mhm. >> Mhm. >> Mhm. >> And ultimately, he got a job, pretty >> And ultimately, he got a job, pretty >> And ultimately, he got a job, pretty low-level clerical work at the low-level clerical work at the low-level clerical work at the government, but we were so proud of him. government, but we were so proud of him. government, but we were so proud of him. And he did that until he passed away. And he did that until he passed away. And he did that until he passed away. But it changed But it changed But it changed him completely. Now, I could also have him completely. Now, I could also have him completely. Now, I could also have been because he had gotten older, you been because he had gotten older, you been because he had gotten older, you know, but drank a lot less and was much know, but drank a lot less and was much know, but drank a lot less and was much more regulated. more regulated. more regulated. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> So, I completely agree with what you're >> So, I completely agree with what you're >> So, I completely agree with what you're saying. saying. saying. >> It's a really sad phenomenon. And you >> It's a really sad phenomenon. And you >> It's a really sad phenomenon. And you And you see it sometimes in successful And you see it sometimes in successful And you see it sometimes in successful people. They get successful very quick. people. They get successful very quick. people. They get successful very quick. They don't attribute it to their own They don't attribute it to their own They don't attribute it to their own success. They get up out of bed in the success. They get up out of bed in the success. They get up out of bed in the morning. They don't have to get out. morning. They don't have to get out. morning. They don't have to get out. They start drinking. They don't take a They start drinking. They don't take a They start drinking. They don't take a job. And And they're affluent, but job. And And they're affluent, but job. And And they're affluent, but they're just not motivated. They don't they're just not motivated. They don't they're just not motivated. They don't have purpose. All right, let's get have purpose. All right, let's get have purpose. All right, let's get started. We got a huge docket to get started. We got a huge docket to get started. We got a huge docket to get through today. through today. through today. >> SpaceX had a record-breaking IPO, and >> SpaceX had a record-breaking IPO, and >> SpaceX had a record-breaking IPO, and $60 billion cursor deal was quickly $60 billion cursor deal was quickly $60 billion cursor deal was quickly consummated, as predicted. consummated, as predicted. consummated, as predicted. Friend of the pod, Elon Musk, took Space Friend of the pod, Elon Musk, took Space Friend of the pod, Elon Musk, took Space X public last Thursday. $135 a share. A X public last Thursday. $135 a share. A X public last Thursday. $135 a share. A lot of people got to participate. lot of people got to participate. lot of people got to participate. Robinhood, Charles Schwab, everybody Robinhood, Charles Schwab, everybody Robinhood, Charles Schwab, everybody talking about they got an allocation, talking about they got an allocation, talking about they got an allocation, one share, 10 shares. And they filled one share, 10 shares. And they filled one share, 10 shares. And they filled the green shoe. $85 billion raised. the green shoe. $85 billion raised. the green shoe. $85 billion raised. That's three times what Saudi Aramco That's three times what Saudi Aramco That's three times what Saudi Aramco raised back in 2019. The stock closed up raised back in 2019. The stock closed up raised back in 2019. The stock closed up 19% to 161, market cap above $2 19% to 161, market cap above $2 19% to 161, market cap above $2 trillion. And uh at the taping of this trillion. And uh at the taping of this trillion. And uh at the taping of this pod, $177. Not too shabby. On Tuesday, pod, $177. Not too shabby. On Tuesday, pod, $177. Not too shabby. On Tuesday, Space X exercised its option to acquire Space X exercised its option to acquire Space X exercised its option to acquire Cursor. That's the coding agent that got Cursor. That's the coding agent that got Cursor. That's the coding agent that got shivved by Speaking of Anthropic and shivved by Speaking of Anthropic and shivved by Speaking of Anthropic and Claude, they originally used Claude to Claude, they originally used Claude to Claude, they originally used Claude to be the back end of Cursor. And then be the back end of Cursor. And then be the back end of Cursor. And then Claude and Anthropic had an internal Claude and Anthropic had an internal Claude and Anthropic had an internal Skunk Works project. They told Cursor, Skunk Works project. They told Cursor, Skunk Works project. They told Cursor, allegedly, they were never going to allegedly, they were never going to allegedly, they were never going to release it to the public. They would release it to the public. They would release it to the public. They would never have a coding agent. And they did. never have a coding agent. And they did. never have a coding agent. And they did. And that led to this incredible And that led to this incredible And that led to this incredible opportunity for Cursor to make their own opportunity for Cursor to make their own opportunity for Cursor to make their own model and use Elon's hardware at model and use Elon's hardware at model and use Elon's hardware at Colossus. Colossus. Colossus. They're doing 4 billion in revenue, so They're doing 4 billion in revenue, so They're doing 4 billion in revenue, so they got bought for 15 times revenue. they got bought for 15 times revenue. they got bought for 15 times revenue. SpaceX trading, I don't know, 60, 70 SpaceX trading, I don't know, 60, 70 SpaceX trading, I don't know, 60, 70 times revenue. So, a great deal for times revenue. So, a great deal for times revenue. So, a great deal for everybody. SpaceX briefly passed Amazon everybody. SpaceX briefly passed Amazon everybody. SpaceX briefly passed Amazon and Microsoft, and Microsoft, and Microsoft, which is mind-blowing to be the fourth which is mind-blowing to be the fourth which is mind-blowing to be the fourth most valuable company. most valuable company. most valuable company. Amazon's revenue in 2025, 717 billion. Amazon's revenue in 2025, 717 billion. Amazon's revenue in 2025, 717 billion. Microsoft's 2025, 282 billion. SpaceX's Microsoft's 2025, 282 billion. SpaceX's Microsoft's 2025, 282 billion. SpaceX's 2025, only 19 billion. So, 2025, only 19 billion. So, 2025, only 19 billion. So, uh they That's corrected a bit and now uh they That's corrected a bit and now uh they That's corrected a bit and now SpaceX is sitting at seventh largest SpaceX is sitting at seventh largest SpaceX is sitting at seventh largest company right behind TSMC. That's the company right behind TSMC. That's the company right behind TSMC. That's the Taiwan Semiconductor Corporation. So, Taiwan Semiconductor Corporation. So, Taiwan Semiconductor Corporation. So, let's just go around the horn here. let's just go around the horn here. let's just go around the horn here. Congratulations to Elon and the team Congratulations to Elon and the team Congratulations to Elon and the team over there. Elon exercised his Tesla over there. Elon exercised his Tesla over there. Elon exercised his Tesla shares that he had coming from his shares that he had coming from his shares that he had coming from his employment uh there. I think he's done a employment uh there. I think he's done a employment uh there. I think he's done a pretty good job as CEO. He got a little pretty good job as CEO. He got a little pretty good job as CEO. He got a little bonus. bonus. bonus. So, that sets up potentially Chamath, So, that sets up potentially Chamath, So, that sets up potentially Chamath, the merger of the two big companies. the merger of the two big companies. the merger of the two big companies. Just broad strokes, what's your take Just broad strokes, what's your take Just broad strokes, what's your take from Takeaway from the SpaceX IPO? Seems from Takeaway from the SpaceX IPO? Seems from Takeaway from the SpaceX IPO? Seems to have been executed flawlessly. to have been executed flawlessly. to have been executed flawlessly. >> It's an incredible company. It's a >> It's an incredible company. It's a >> It's an incredible company. It's a one-of-one. It's just a unique one-of-one. It's just a unique one-of-one. It's just a unique unique animal. I think that the highest price-to-sales the highest price-to-sales was essentially these last few days. And was essentially these last few days. And was essentially these last few days. And now it's just going to grow into its now it's just going to grow into its now it's just going to grow into its valuation and generally just grow valuation and generally just grow valuation and generally just grow valuation. Nick, play the clip. The acquisition was Nick, play the clip. The acquisition was essentially negotiated and the way that essentially negotiated and the way that essentially negotiated and the way that it's structured is so that the S-1 it's structured is so that the S-1 it's structured is so that the S-1 doesn't go stale. So, I think the way doesn't go stale. So, I think the way doesn't go stale. So, I think the way that it was that it was that it was announced has more to do with the fact announced has more to do with the fact announced has more to do with the fact that they don't want to slow down and that they don't want to slow down and that they don't want to slow down and have to rewrite parts of the S-1, have have to rewrite parts of the S-1, have have to rewrite parts of the S-1, have to redo the disclosures, have to redo to redo the disclosures, have to redo to redo the disclosures, have to redo the risks. The deal is effectively done. the risks. The deal is effectively done. the risks. The deal is effectively done. >> Mhm. >> Mhm. >> Mhm. >> But, what's so smart is that where is >> But, what's so smart is that where is >> But, what's so smart is that where is SpaceX today? Let's call it a trillion. SpaceX today? Let's call it a trillion. SpaceX today? Let's call it a trillion. Where could it be? Just for the purpose Where could it be? Just for the purpose Where could it be? Just for the purpose of this argument, let's say 2 trillion. of this argument, let's say 2 trillion. of this argument, let's say 2 trillion. So, when the deal gets done on a So, when the deal gets done on a So, when the deal gets done on a stock-for-stock basis, it's going stock-for-stock basis, it's going stock-for-stock basis, it's going [clears throat] to be Again, if it's 60 [clears throat] to be Again, if it's 60 [clears throat] to be Again, if it's 60 billion in tomorrow dollars, effectively billion in tomorrow dollars, effectively billion in tomorrow dollars, effectively Elon's gotten a 50% discount. Elon's gotten a 50% discount. Elon's gotten a 50% discount. >> Mhm. All right, nailed it. We'll give >> Mhm. All right, nailed it. We'll give >> Mhm. All right, nailed it. We'll give that a mhm. that a mhm. that a mhm. Okay, sure enough. Okay, sure enough. Okay, sure enough. >> what I didn't factor as well is that the >> what I didn't factor as well is that the >> what I didn't factor as well is that the revenue run rate would essentially revenue run rate would essentially revenue run rate would essentially double on top of that. So, he double on top of that. So, he double on top of that. So, he essentially got Cursor for 15 billion. essentially got Cursor for 15 billion. essentially got Cursor for 15 billion. >> He got a good deal. >> He got a good deal. >> He got a good deal. >> Which is unbelievable. His business >> Which is unbelievable. His business >> Which is unbelievable. His business intellect off the charts. That is an intellect off the charts. That is an intellect off the charts. That is an incredible deal. And now incredible deal. And now incredible deal. And now the consolidation phase will begin, and the consolidation phase will begin, and the consolidation phase will begin, and we're going to see Tesla and SpaceX we're going to see Tesla and SpaceX we're going to see Tesla and SpaceX merge, merge, merge, and it's going to be glorious. and it's going to be glorious. and it's going to be glorious. >> Sacks, you can also take a >> Sacks, you can also take a >> Sacks, you can also take a a little bit of a victory lap here. a little bit of a victory lap here. a little bit of a victory lap here. You've been friends with Elon since You've been friends with Elon since You've been friends with Elon since PayPal days, obviously. And um PayPal days, obviously. And um PayPal days, obviously. And um you obviously were an investor in SpaceX you obviously were an investor in SpaceX you obviously were an investor in SpaceX for a long time. Your thoughts on what for a long time. Your thoughts on what for a long time. Your thoughts on what this means for the company? Obviously, this means for the company? Obviously, this means for the company? Obviously, it's an incredible milestone, but what it's an incredible milestone, but what it's an incredible milestone, but what does it mean for the company going does it mean for the company going does it mean for the company going forward? Obviously, champagne bottles, forward? Obviously, champagne bottles, forward? Obviously, champagne bottles, yada yada, but what does it practically yada yada, but what does it practically yada yada, but what does it practically mean for SpaceX and Elon going forward? mean for SpaceX and Elon going forward? mean for SpaceX and Elon going forward? >> Well, in a certain sense, as we all >> Well, in a certain sense, as we all >> Well, in a certain sense, as we all know, this was the biggest IPO of all know, this was the biggest IPO of all know, this was the biggest IPO of all time. And so, in that sense, it was a time. And so, in that sense, it was a time. And so, in that sense, it was a huge milestone for this company huge milestone for this company huge milestone for this company that Elon and many other people have that Elon and many other people have that Elon and many other people have been working on for a very long time. I been working on for a very long time. I been working on for a very long time. I mean, this has been 25 years in the mean, this has been 25 years in the mean, this has been 25 years in the making. When people turn on the TV and making. When people turn on the TV and making. When people turn on the TV and they see this, they think that this is they see this, they think that this is they see this, they think that this is just some sort of overnight success. just some sort of overnight success. just some sort of overnight success. It's not. A lot of people had to work It's not. A lot of people had to work It's not. A lot of people had to work very hard to get to this point. very hard to get to this point. very hard to get to this point. But, at the same time that it was this But, at the same time that it was this But, at the same time that it was this historic IPO, it's also the case that in historic IPO, it's also the case that in historic IPO, it's also the case that in a certain sense, this didn't change a certain sense, this didn't change a certain sense, this didn't change anything for Elon. You know, I think anything for Elon. You know, I think anything for Elon. You know, I think when people read that he's the world's when people read that he's the world's when people read that he's the world's first trillionaire, they start to think first trillionaire, they start to think first trillionaire, they start to think that he must have gobs of money, a that he must have gobs of money, a that he must have gobs of money, a trillion dollars sitting in a bank trillion dollars sitting in a bank trillion dollars sitting in a bank account. And that's not true. That's not account. And that's not true. That's not account. And that's not true. That's not how it works. That's not how wealth is how it works. That's not how wealth is how it works. That's not how wealth is created. He doesn't have one more dollar created. He doesn't have one more dollar created. He doesn't have one more dollar in the bank than he did the day before in the bank than he did the day before in the bank than he did the day before the IPO. He doesn't have more stuff. the IPO. He doesn't have more stuff. the IPO. He doesn't have more stuff. Doesn't have more houses or anything Doesn't have more houses or anything Doesn't have more houses or anything that you could buy with money. that you could buy with money. that you could buy with money. Literally, his balance sheet is exactly Literally, his balance sheet is exactly Literally, his balance sheet is exactly the same. It consists of the same thing. the same. It consists of the same thing. the same. It consists of the same thing. It's just that the public is putting a It's just that the public is putting a It's just that the public is putting a higher value higher value higher value on the shares of stock in SpaceX that he on the shares of stock in SpaceX that he on the shares of stock in SpaceX that he already owned. already owned. already owned. And he's not selling. He's under a And he's not selling. He's under a And he's not selling. He's under a 1-year lockup, and I predict that he'll 1-year lockup, and I predict that he'll 1-year lockup, and I predict that he'll hold on for much longer than that hold on for much longer than that hold on for much longer than that because creating SpaceX is his life's because creating SpaceX is his life's because creating SpaceX is his life's work. So, you know, you see all these work. So, you know, you see all these work. So, you know, you see all these people reacting with tremendous people reacting with tremendous people reacting with tremendous animosity and basically saying that, you animosity and basically saying that, you animosity and basically saying that, you know, we can't allow the world's first know, we can't allow the world's first know, we can't allow the world's first trillionaire, you know, stuff like that. trillionaire, you know, stuff like that. trillionaire, you know, stuff like that. Look, he doesn't have more cash than he Look, he doesn't have more cash than he Look, he doesn't have more cash than he did the day before the IPO. did the day before the IPO. did the day before the IPO. >> Clearly. It's that other people are >> Clearly. It's that other people are >> Clearly. It's that other people are placing a greater value on what he's placing a greater value on what he's placing a greater value on what he's built. built. built. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> And I think this is a a very important >> And I think this is a a very important >> And I think this is a a very important for people to understand is that for people to understand is that for people to understand is that there's a big difference there's a big difference there's a big difference between stuff and then the machines that between stuff and then the machines that between stuff and then the machines that make the stuff. make the stuff. make the stuff. And I think, again, this is where wealth And I think, again, this is where wealth And I think, again, this is where wealth comes from is the machines that make the comes from is the machines that make the comes from is the machines that make the stuff. So, you know, you go all the way stuff. So, you know, you go all the way stuff. So, you know, you go all the way back to hunter-gatherer days, right? The back to hunter-gatherer days, right? The back to hunter-gatherer days, right? The only wealth was in what you could only wealth was in what you could only wealth was in what you could collect, hunt, gather, whatever. collect, hunt, gather, whatever. collect, hunt, gather, whatever. It's basically the collection of stuff. It's basically the collection of stuff. It's basically the collection of stuff. Then humans Then humans Then humans developed the ability to create tools, developed the ability to create tools, developed the ability to create tools, and then very sophisticated tools, and and then very sophisticated tools, and and then very sophisticated tools, and then some of those tools are then some of those tools are then some of those tools are corporations, which are almost like corporations, which are almost like corporations, which are almost like cybernetic organisms or combinations of cybernetic organisms or combinations of cybernetic organisms or combinations of tools, workflows, humans work in them. tools, workflows, humans work in them. tools, workflows, humans work in them. And it's those corporations that make And it's those corporations that make And it's those corporations that make the stuff. And the way that people get the stuff. And the way that people get the stuff. And the way that people get wealthy is that if you create a machine wealthy is that if you create a machine wealthy is that if you create a machine that makes more stuff, then there's a that makes more stuff, then there's a that makes more stuff, then there's a discounted present value discounted present value discounted present value for all the stuff in the future that for all the stuff in the future that for all the stuff in the future that that machine might create. And that's that machine might create. And that's that machine might create. And that's where the wealth comes from. It's in the where the wealth comes from. It's in the where the wealth comes from. It's in the discounted present value. discounted present value. discounted present value. >> Really >> Really >> Really >> It's not in the stuff. It's in creating >> It's not in the stuff. It's in creating >> It's not in the stuff. It's in creating a machine that will create stuff for a machine that will create stuff for a machine that will create stuff for humanity for a long time, and people humanity for a long time, and people humanity for a long time, and people will put a value on it today will put a value on it today will put a value on it today >> That's really well said. >> That's really well said. >> That's really well said. >> because of all the stuff that it'll >> because of all the stuff that it'll >> because of all the stuff that it'll create in the future. And so, just out create in the future. And so, just out create in the future. And so, just out of nowhere, it will appear that all of a of nowhere, it will appear that all of a of nowhere, it will appear that all of a sudden you have all this wealth created, sudden you have all this wealth created, sudden you have all this wealth created, but again, that wealth is a reflection but again, that wealth is a reflection but again, that wealth is a reflection of all the stuff that this machine will of all the stuff that this machine will of all the stuff that this machine will now create in the future. And people now create in the future. And people now create in the future. And people need to understand that that process is need to understand that that process is need to understand that that process is a good thing because when you think a good thing because when you think a good thing because when you think about all the progress that humanity has about all the progress that humanity has about all the progress that humanity has made, it's not in having more stuff made, it's not in having more stuff made, it's not in having more stuff because again, that stuff all it all because again, that stuff all it all because again, that stuff all it all goes away, right? Whether it's goes away, right? Whether it's goes away, right? Whether it's food or shelter or clothes or whatever. food or shelter or clothes or whatever. food or shelter or clothes or whatever. It it depreciates. It's a wasting asset. It it depreciates. It's a wasting asset. It it depreciates. It's a wasting asset. The reason why The reason why The reason why humans humans humans are more prosperous is because of all are more prosperous is because of all are more prosperous is because of all the machinery we've created to make the machinery we've created to make the machinery we've created to make stuff well into the future. And you stuff well into the future. And you stuff well into the future. And you know, again, some of that stuff can be know, again, some of that stuff can be know, again, some of that stuff can be things like shelter, clothes. It can things like shelter, clothes. It can things like shelter, clothes. It can also be medicines and cures and also be medicines and cures and also be medicines and cures and entertainment and all the things entertainment and all the things entertainment and all the things electricity all the things that make electricity all the things that make electricity all the things that make your life better. We need those machines your life better. We need those machines your life better. We need those machines and someone has got to own the machines and someone has got to own the machines and someone has got to own the machines and the people who own it are the ones and the people who own it are the ones and the people who own it are the ones who create it. And the thing that Karl who create it. And the thing that Karl who create it. And the thing that Karl Marx never understood is that it's not Marx never understood is that it's not Marx never understood is that it's not this sharp delineation between capital this sharp delineation between capital this sharp delineation between capital and labor because you can take people and labor because you can take people and labor because you can take people who start with nothing. He also started who start with nothing. He also started who start with nothing. He also started with nothing. I mean, he was a immigrant with nothing. I mean, he was a immigrant with nothing. I mean, he was a immigrant >> Nothing. >> Nothing. >> Nothing. >> to the United States. He came here with >> to the United States. He came here with >> to the United States. He came here with nothing. nothing. nothing. He slept on the floor. He created these He slept on the floor. He created these He slept on the floor. He created these companies. He created these machines companies. He created these machines companies. He created these machines from nothing with his own vision and from nothing with his own vision and from nothing with his own vision and hard work and he included thousands of hard work and he included thousands of hard work and he included thousands of other people. So, here's the other thing other people. So, here's the other thing other people. So, here's the other thing is just because you're "labor" doesn't is just because you're "labor" doesn't is just because you're "labor" doesn't mean that you're not also an owner of mean that you're not also an owner of mean that you're not also an owner of capital. There's a great story about how capital. There's a great story about how capital. There's a great story about how there's a welder there's a welder there's a welder who worked at SpaceX who I think has who worked at SpaceX who I think has who worked at SpaceX who I think has made a million dollars in SpaceX stock. made a million dollars in SpaceX stock. made a million dollars in SpaceX stock. Transformational, but everybody who's Transformational, but everybody who's Transformational, but everybody who's part of these companies and I think this part of these companies and I think this part of these companies and I think this is the magic of the tech industry. It is is the magic of the tech industry. It is is the magic of the tech industry. It is it is much more inclusive in terms of it is much more inclusive in terms of it is much more inclusive in terms of ownership than any other industry. ownership than any other industry. ownership than any other industry. >> It's the magic of capitalism in free >> It's the magic of capitalism in free >> It's the magic of capitalism in free markets where anyone can participate in markets where anyone can participate in markets where anyone can participate in that market. Anyone can enter that that market. Anyone can enter that that market. Anyone can enter that market and ultimately anyone can market and ultimately anyone can market and ultimately anyone can transition from being labor to capital. transition from being labor to capital. transition from being labor to capital. >> Yes, it's fluid. It's back and forth. >> Yes, it's fluid. It's back and forth. >> Yes, it's fluid. It's back and forth. >> If you buy shares in a company and you >> If you buy shares in a company and you >> If you buy shares in a company and you have the ability to buy shares. have the ability to buy shares. have the ability to buy shares. >> You just vest them with sweat equity. >> You just vest them with sweat equity. >> You just vest them with sweat equity. >> Or you start a business and you >> Or you start a business and you >> Or you start a business and you basically do work, save money, invest basically do work, save money, invest basically do work, save money, invest your capital, and continue to compound your capital, and continue to compound your capital, and continue to compound the capital the capital the capital till you get to a point that your labor till you get to a point that your labor till you get to a point that your labor is worth less than your capital. And is worth less than your capital. And is worth less than your capital. And that's what ultimately allows this that's what ultimately allows this that's what ultimately allows this economic mobility, this transition for economic mobility, this transition for economic mobility, this transition for people. And when you take that away, you people. And when you take that away, you people. And when you take that away, you destroy that capacity for mobility. destroy that capacity for mobility. destroy that capacity for mobility. >> That's why capitalism is where we >> That's why capitalism is where we >> That's why capitalism is where we started today, yeah. started today, yeah. started today, yeah. >> That's right. And that's why >> That's right. And that's why >> That's right. And that's why >> today with agency. >> today with agency. >> today with agency. >> That's why it's so frustrating to me to >> That's why it's so frustrating to me to >> That's why it's so frustrating to me to watch people denounce watch people denounce watch people denounce Elon's success and denounce the value Elon's success and denounce the value Elon's success and denounce the value that the world is putting on this that the world is putting on this that the world is putting on this business and on this success. Because business and on this success. Because business and on this success. Because what they're saying is that no future what they're saying is that no future what they're saying is that no future human, no kid that's sitting on a on a human, no kid that's sitting on a on a human, no kid that's sitting on a on a floor right now, sleeping on a floor, floor right now, sleeping on a floor, floor right now, sleeping on a floor, that's poor, should have the capacity to that's poor, should have the capacity to that's poor, should have the capacity to achieve what Elon achieved. No one achieve what Elon achieved. No one achieve what Elon achieved. No one should be allowed that capacity to should be allowed that capacity to should be allowed that capacity to transition, to progress, to mobilize transition, to progress, to mobilize transition, to progress, to mobilize themselves. themselves. themselves. >> Freiberg They're saying you should hate >> Freiberg They're saying you should hate >> Freiberg They're saying you should hate him. him. him. >> By denouncing him, and by denouncing >> By denouncing him, and by denouncing >> By denouncing him, and by denouncing that, you are basically taking that that, you are basically taking that that, you are basically taking that ability away, and you're saying ability away, and you're saying ability away, and you're saying >> that this is evil. And you're telling >> that this is evil. And you're telling >> that this is evil. And you're telling all these young kids around the world all these young kids around the world all these young kids around the world that are thinking about their future, that are thinking about their future, that are thinking about their future, that they are now indentured to a that they are now indentured to a that they are now indentured to a government or to a fixed income for the government or to a fixed income for the government or to a fixed income for the rest of their lives to perform labor for rest of their lives to perform labor for rest of their lives to perform labor for a fee for the rest of their lives as a fee for the rest of their lives as a fee for the rest of their lives as opposed to having the opportunity to opposed to having the opportunity to opposed to having the opportunity to transition, transition, transition, which is what Elon has done and what which is what Elon has done and what which is what Elon has done and what millions of others have done because of millions of others have done because of millions of others have done because of the freedoms in the United States and the freedoms in the United States and the freedoms in the United States and and other free markets that have allowed and other free markets that have allowed and other free markets that have allowed this to happen for people. And that is this to happen for people. And that is this to happen for people. And that is why it's not just about getting wealthy. why it's not just about getting wealthy. why it's not just about getting wealthy. It's not just about getting rich. It's It's not just about getting rich. It's It's not just about getting rich. It's about having agency to transition about having agency to transition about having agency to transition yourself. yourself. yourself. >> And it's a good transition. >> And it's a good transition. >> And it's a good transition. And inspiring young people, yeah. It's a And inspiring young people, yeah. It's a And inspiring young people, yeah. It's a different kind of transition. different kind of transition. different kind of transition. >> It's a good transition. No, you're >> It's a good transition. No, you're >> It's a good transition. No, you're transitioning from from labor to capital transitioning from from labor to capital transitioning from from labor to capital by virtue of sweat equity. You have by virtue of sweat equity. You have by virtue of sweat equity. You have skills that are valuable that you can skills that are valuable that you can skills that are valuable that you can then translate into creating something then translate into creating something then translate into creating something that's valuable. And just Just to that's valuable. And just Just to that's valuable. And just Just to underscore that point, I mean you think underscore that point, I mean you think underscore that point, I mean you think about SpaceX, it's a machine that makes about SpaceX, it's a machine that makes about SpaceX, it's a machine that makes satellites. It's a machine that makes satellites. It's a machine that makes satellites. It's a machine that makes broadband connections from space. It's a broadband connections from space. It's a broadband connections from space. It's a machine that creates launch vehicles. machine that creates launch vehicles. machine that creates launch vehicles. And AI software and so forth and so on. And AI software and so forth and so on. And AI software and so forth and so on. So it's a machine that makes things that So it's a machine that makes things that So it's a machine that makes things that people want and that therefore enhances people want and that therefore enhances people want and that therefore enhances people's lives and it's only the market, people's lives and it's only the market, people's lives and it's only the market, the public's value that it places on the public's value that it places on the public's value that it places on those things that creates the net worth those things that creates the net worth those things that creates the net worth that creates the value of SpaceX's stock that creates the value of SpaceX's stock that creates the value of SpaceX's stock and therefore the net worth of someone and therefore the net worth of someone and therefore the net worth of someone like Elon. But again, he doesn't have like Elon. But again, he doesn't have like Elon. But again, he doesn't have one more dollar than he had before. one more dollar than he had before. one more dollar than he had before. >> Well, and to put a finer point on it, >> Well, and to put a finer point on it, >> Well, and to put a finer point on it, you have to earn that by continuing to you have to earn that by continuing to you have to earn that by continuing to make the best product in your class. The make the best product in your class. The make the best product in your class. The second Elon satellite Starlink is not as second Elon satellite Starlink is not as second Elon satellite Starlink is not as good as the next two or three good as the next two or three good as the next two or three competitors and there are two or three competitors and there are two or three competitors and there are two or three of them coming right behind him and of them coming right behind him and of them coming right behind him and there's other people doing rockets and there's other people doing rockets and there's other people doing rockets and obviously he's in a heated competition obviously he's in a heated competition obviously he's in a heated competition for LLMs and with Cursor versus Claude for LLMs and with Cursor versus Claude for LLMs and with Cursor versus Claude Coach. It's he's not guaranteed. He has Coach. It's he's not guaranteed. He has Coach. It's he's not guaranteed. He has to fight and he's had to fight to win to fight and he's had to fight to win to fight and he's had to fight to win each of those categories and the second each of those categories and the second each of those categories and the second he stops fighting in those categories he he stops fighting in those categories he he stops fighting in those categories he loses and all that equity gets cut like loses and all that equity gets cut like loses and all that equity gets cut like we see when stocks tank because they we see when stocks tank because they we see when stocks tank because they cannot keep up. So he's had to fight for cannot keep up. So he's had to fight for cannot keep up. So he's had to fight for every inch every inch every inch by making the best product. Nothing was by making the best product. Nothing was by making the best product. Nothing was given to him. Everything was earned and given to him. Everything was earned and given to him. Everything was earned and earned by his team. This idea that like earned by his team. This idea that like earned by his team. This idea that like he won the lottery he won the lottery he won the lottery is farcical. It's a 25-year overnight is farcical. It's a 25-year overnight is farcical. It's a 25-year overnight success story that had three or four success story that had three or four success story that had three or four distinct points where it was going out distinct points where it was going out distinct points where it was going out of business and he had to scramble. of business and he had to scramble. of business and he had to scramble. >> I've always thought that the people that >> I've always thought that the people that >> I've always thought that the people that rail on wealth are actually secretly rail on wealth are actually secretly rail on wealth are actually secretly incredibly jealous and want to be incredibly jealous and want to be incredibly jealous and want to be extremely rich. extremely rich. extremely rich. Because I've never heard a coherent Because I've never heard a coherent Because I've never heard a coherent argument argument argument about why when somebody achieves about why when somebody achieves about why when somebody achieves something that you should dismantle the something that you should dismantle the something that you should dismantle the things that they're building. things that they're building. things that they're building. And what you both of you said are so And what you both of you said are so And what you both of you said are so right. The vicissitudes of the market right. The vicissitudes of the market right. The vicissitudes of the market can make that number fluctuate wildly. can make that number fluctuate wildly. can make that number fluctuate wildly. There is a version of the market that There is a version of the market that There is a version of the market that has nothing to do with him that judges has nothing to do with him that judges has nothing to do with him that judges his stuff in the future his stuff in the future his stuff in the future as half of what they're judging it as half of what they're judging it as half of what they're judging it today. Nothing stops us from doing that. today. Nothing stops us from doing that. today. Nothing stops us from doing that. And all of a sudden, everybody who's And all of a sudden, everybody who's And all of a sudden, everybody who's breathlessly mad that he's a breathlessly mad that he's a breathlessly mad that he's a trillionaire, trillionaire, trillionaire, what do they say now? Because he what do they say now? Because he what do they say now? Because he wouldn't be a trillionaire. He's some wouldn't be a trillionaire. He's some wouldn't be a trillionaire. He's some version of what he was the Thursday of version of what he was the Thursday of version of what he was the Thursday of last week, right? last week, right? last week, right? >> Right. Right. And you know, to take >> Right. Right. And you know, to take >> Right. Right. And you know, to take semi-analogy, the machines become semi-analogy, the machines become semi-analogy, the machines become obsolete very quickly, you know, in a obsolete very quickly, you know, in a obsolete very quickly, you know, in a capitalist society. capitalist society. capitalist society. You can get disrupted. And companies get You can get disrupted. And companies get You can get disrupted. And companies get disrupted all the time if they become disrupted all the time if they become disrupted all the time if they become stale or calcified. If If they don't If stale or calcified. If If they don't If stale or calcified. If If they don't If they don't invest in maintaining and they don't invest in maintaining and they don't invest in maintaining and upgrading their machine, they will upgrading their machine, they will upgrading their machine, they will become obsolete. become obsolete. become obsolete. >> Improving value. Do you know what can't >> Improving value. Do you know what can't >> Improving value. Do you know what can't get disrupted? Do you know what can't get disrupted? Do you know what can't get disrupted? Do you know what can't get disrupted? The one unobstructable get disrupted? The one unobstructable get disrupted? The one unobstructable monopoly, government. monopoly, government. monopoly, government. And that's the problem. Government is And that's the problem. Government is And that's the problem. Government is competing for capital, and it's competing for capital, and it's competing for capital, and it's competing for markets, and it's competing for markets, and it's competing for markets, and it's competing for all these things. And competing for all these things. And competing for all these things. And that's why I talk about these people as that's why I talk about these people as that's why I talk about these people as being evil. They're a politburo. They're being evil. They're a politburo. They're being evil. They're a politburo. They're basically trying to take away capacity basically trying to take away capacity basically trying to take away capacity for value creation, to make things for value creation, to make things for value creation, to make things better every generation for a society, better every generation for a society, better every generation for a society, better medicine, better education, better medicine, better education, better medicine, better education, better livelihoods, better homes. better livelihoods, better homes. better livelihoods, better homes. Everything gets better. But when the Everything gets better. But when the Everything gets better. But when the government monopolizes it, it doesn't. government monopolizes it, it doesn't. government monopolizes it, it doesn't. And that's the competing force that And that's the competing force that And that's the competing force that we're up against. we're up against. we're up against. >> Yeah, and >> Yeah, and >> Yeah, and I want to just add one thing to this, I want to just add one thing to this, I want to just add one thing to this, which is there is a piece of this that which is there is a piece of this that which is there is a piece of this that needs to be solved, which is needs to be solved, which is needs to be solved, which is people wanted to participate in the people wanted to participate in the people wanted to participate in the success of these companies earlier. And success of these companies earlier. And success of these companies earlier. And we Chamath and I interviewed the head of we Chamath and I interviewed the head of we Chamath and I interviewed the head of the SEC, and he's working on this, but the SEC, and he's working on this, but the SEC, and he's working on this, but the amount of demand from retail, and it the amount of demand from retail, and it the amount of demand from retail, and it was a very innovative thing that Elon was a very innovative thing that Elon was a very innovative thing that Elon did in the team over at SpaceX. They did in the team over at SpaceX. They did in the team over at SpaceX. They gave 20 or 30% of the IPO to retail gave 20 or 30% of the IPO to retail gave 20 or 30% of the IPO to retail investors. When you opened up your investors. When you opened up your investors. When you opened up your Robinhood account, I don't know if you Robinhood account, I don't know if you Robinhood account, I don't know if you guys have one, or a Charles Schwab guys have one, or a Charles Schwab guys have one, or a Charles Schwab account, it gave you a little interface account, it gave you a little interface account, it gave you a little interface that said, "Hey, would you like to that said, "Hey, would you like to that said, "Hey, would you like to participate in the IPO of SpaceX?" And participate in the IPO of SpaceX?" And participate in the IPO of SpaceX?" And you could put in your request. I think you could put in your request. I think you could put in your request. I think six or seven, I was talking to Vlad, six or seven, I was talking to Vlad, six or seven, I was talking to Vlad, maybe six or 700,000 maybe six or 700,000 maybe six or 700,000 Robinhood users got an allocation. It Robinhood users got an allocation. It Robinhood users got an allocation. It might have been one share, it could have might have been one share, it could have might have been one share, it could have been 50. That democratization needs to been 50. That democratization needs to been 50. That democratization needs to continue because the real continue because the real continue because the real back to Freeberg's points about being a back to Freeberg's points about being a back to Freeberg's points about being a wage slave or an equity holder and wage slave or an equity holder and wage slave or an equity holder and trying to make that transition. Well, trying to make that transition. Well, trying to make that transition. Well, people being able to open up Robinhood people being able to open up Robinhood people being able to open up Robinhood and just buy one or two shares and vote and just buy one or two shares and vote and just buy one or two shares and vote with their dollars for 150 bucks that with their dollars for 150 bucks that with their dollars for 150 bucks that they want this future as opposed to they want this future as opposed to they want this future as opposed to other versions of the future. That's other versions of the future. That's other versions of the future. That's what gives them that empowerment. That's what gives them that empowerment. That's what gives them that empowerment. That's what gives them that agency. Well, what what gives them that agency. Well, what what gives them that agency. Well, what if they could do that earlier? And I've if they could do that earlier? And I've if they could do that earlier? And I've beaten this drum on this podcast and on beaten this drum on this podcast and on beaten this drum on this podcast and on my other podcast for a decade on this. my other podcast for a decade on this. my other podcast for a decade on this. But people knew SpaceX. They were But people knew SpaceX. They were But people knew SpaceX. They were watching these rockets launch for a long watching these rockets launch for a long watching these rockets launch for a long time. And they would have placed that time. And they would have placed that time. And they would have placed that bet 10 years ago when the company was bet 10 years ago when the company was bet 10 years ago when the company was worth 100 billion or 10 billion or, you worth 100 billion or 10 billion or, you worth 100 billion or 10 billion or, you know, 500 billion, but they weren't know, 500 billion, but they weren't know, 500 billion, but they weren't allowed to because we have a corrupt allowed to because we have a corrupt allowed to because we have a corrupt system in our government that says rich system in our government that says rich system in our government that says rich people, the top four or five percent of people, the top four or five percent of people, the top four or five percent of this country, are smart enough to buy this country, are smart enough to buy this country, are smart enough to buy private company stocks and the 95% are private company stocks and the 95% are private company stocks and the 95% are too stupid to. And it's antiquated and too stupid to. And it's antiquated and too stupid to. And it's antiquated and it has to change and you should be able it has to change and you should be able it has to change and you should be able to buy whatever you want. If you want to to buy whatever you want. If you want to to buy whatever you want. If you want to buy crypto, you can. If you want to buy buy crypto, you can. If you want to buy buy crypto, you can. If you want to buy a private company, you can. If you want a private company, you can. If you want a private company, you can. If you want to play cards with your friends and play to play cards with your friends and play to play cards with your friends and play bomb pots and watch Dave Freeberg bomb pots and watch Dave Freeberg bomb pots and watch Dave Freeberg rage quit because he keeps losing at rage quit because he keeps losing at rage quit because he keeps losing at bomb pots when we play. That's bomb pots when we play. That's bomb pots when we play. That's Freeberg's right. Let people buy private Freeberg's right. Let people buy private Freeberg's right. Let people buy private company stock. It's crazy that we still company stock. It's crazy that we still company stock. It's crazy that we still have this rule keeping poor people poor. have this rule keeping poor people poor. have this rule keeping poor people poor. Thanks for coming to my TED Talk. Can I Thanks for coming to my TED Talk. Can I Thanks for coming to my TED Talk. Can I take a shot at answering Chamath's take a shot at answering Chamath's take a shot at answering Chamath's question? What Why are there so many question? What Why are there so many question? What Why are there so many people who are influential, who are people who are influential, who are people who are influential, who are resentful of what Elon's done or what resentful of what Elon's done or what resentful of what Elon's done or what other capitalists do? I think it was other capitalists do? I think it was other capitalists do? I think it was Joseph Schumpeter who explained this Joseph Schumpeter who explained this Joseph Schumpeter who explained this that basically you've got this that basically you've got this that basically you've got this intelligentsia intelligentsia intelligentsia in a society like ours where they don't in a society like ours where they don't in a society like ours where they don't make things, they don't make the make things, they don't make the make things, they don't make the machines that make things. They just machines that make things. They just machines that make things. They just make words and you know, I guess ideas make words and you know, I guess ideas make words and you know, I guess ideas and most of those ideas are just wrong, and most of those ideas are just wrong, and most of those ideas are just wrong, right? They're just made up. right? They're just made up. right? They're just made up. And they become resentful of the fact And they become resentful of the fact And they become resentful of the fact that there are all these people who are that there are all these people who are that there are all these people who are able to create not the stuff but the able to create not the stuff but the able to create not the stuff but the machines that make the stuff, right? And machines that make the stuff, right? And machines that make the stuff, right? And that in that in that in our society, that is the thing that our society, that is the thing that our society, that is the thing that creates the greatest reward financially. creates the greatest reward financially. creates the greatest reward financially. Why? Because it actually aligns with Why? Because it actually aligns with Why? Because it actually aligns with what's in the greatest value for what's in the greatest value for what's in the greatest value for society, whereas they produce a bunch of society, whereas they produce a bunch of society, whereas they produce a bunch of hot air. So, it's natural for that class hot air. So, it's natural for that class hot air. So, it's natural for that class of intelligentsia to become resentful of intelligentsia to become resentful of intelligentsia to become resentful and hostile towards the people who are and hostile towards the people who are and hostile towards the people who are able to amass this great wealth. able to amass this great wealth. able to amass this great wealth. >> I think that the great lie >> I think that the great lie >> I think that the great lie is that there are two sides to the is that there are two sides to the is that there are two sides to the society that is the rich and the poor. society that is the rich and the poor. society that is the rich and the poor. And the great truth is that there are And the great truth is that there are And the great truth is that there are two sides that are the makers and the two sides that are the makers and the two sides that are the makers and the takers. takers. takers. The lie is that the rich are unfairly The lie is that the rich are unfairly The lie is that the rich are unfairly rich and the poor are unfairly poor. And rich and the poor are unfairly poor. And rich and the poor are unfairly poor. And therefore the poor must take from the therefore the poor must take from the therefore the poor must take from the rich. rich. rich. But the truth is that it's the takers But the truth is that it's the takers But the truth is that it's the takers that tell you that lie. that tell you that lie. that tell you that lie. That the real truth is that artists That the real truth is that artists That the real truth is that artists plumbers plumbers plumbers electricians, woodworkers, computer electricians, woodworkers, computer electricians, woodworkers, computer scientists, people that build, people scientists, people that build, people scientists, people that build, people that make [ __ ] from all walks of life, that make [ __ ] from all walks of life, that make [ __ ] from all walks of life, all income levels, all wealth brackets all income levels, all wealth brackets all income levels, all wealth brackets are the makers. are the makers. are the makers. And the takers are what Sachs calls this And the takers are what Sachs calls this And the takers are what Sachs calls this intelligentsia, the analysts. intelligentsia, the analysts. intelligentsia, the analysts. The espousers, the armchair mechanics, The espousers, the armchair mechanics, The espousers, the armchair mechanics, the critics, the commentators, the the critics, the commentators, the the critics, the commentators, the politicians. They are the takers. They politicians. They are the takers. They politicians. They are the takers. They are the people that watch the rest of are the people that watch the rest of are the people that watch the rest of society make stuff, build stuff, society make stuff, build stuff, society make stuff, build stuff, specifically doing things that create specifically doing things that create specifically doing things that create value for other people in society. value for other people in society. value for other people in society. That's what a maker is. Tell my kids That's what a maker is. Tell my kids That's what a maker is. Tell my kids this lesson all the time. I say, "What this lesson all the time. I say, "What this lesson all the time. I say, "What did you guys make today?" They tell me did you guys make today?" They tell me did you guys make today?" They tell me something they made and I'm like, "Did something they made and I'm like, "Did something they made and I'm like, "Did someone else value it or did you make it someone else value it or did you make it someone else value it or did you make it just for yourself?" At the end of the just for yourself?" At the end of the just for yourself?" At the end of the day, if you made something and someone day, if you made something and someone day, if you made something and someone else valued it, you were a maker. That else valued it, you were a maker. That else valued it, you were a maker. That was an amazing achievement. That is a was an amazing achievement. That is a was an amazing achievement. That is a great day. Whether you make a piece of great day. Whether you make a piece of great day. Whether you make a piece of art, whether you build a house, whether art, whether you build a house, whether art, whether you build a house, whether you write a piece of software, whether you write a piece of software, whether you write a piece of software, whether you build a business, whatever you make, you build a business, whatever you make, you build a business, whatever you make, if you're a maker and someone else if you're a maker and someone else if you're a maker and someone else values it, they become your customer in values it, they become your customer in values it, they become your customer in some way, they become your partner in some way, they become your partner in some way, they become your partner in some way, you've done something some way, you've done something some way, you've done something valuable. Those are the true engines of valuable. Those are the true engines of valuable. Those are the true engines of progress for humanity. And the takers progress for humanity. And the takers progress for humanity. And the takers are the ones that tell the lie that it's are the ones that tell the lie that it's are the ones that tell the lie that it's rich versus poor, because they what they rich versus poor, because they what they rich versus poor, because they what they want to do is rip apart the makers. And want to do is rip apart the makers. And want to do is rip apart the makers. And they want to tell everyone you got to be they want to tell everyone you got to be they want to tell everyone you got to be on one side or the other, and they use on one side or the other, and they use on one side or the other, and they use that lie to get everyone to line up that lie to get everyone to line up that lie to get everyone to line up against each other and to give against each other and to give against each other and to give themselves ultimately the control to themselves ultimately the control to themselves ultimately the control to form the great American Politburo, which form the great American Politburo, which form the great American Politburo, which is what they're trying to create. That is what they're trying to create. That is what they're trying to create. That is what's underway right now, and that is what's underway right now, and that is what's underway right now, and that is the fundamental great truth and great is the fundamental great truth and great is the fundamental great truth and great lie that that we're kind of fighting lie that that we're kind of fighting lie that that we're kind of fighting against at this moment. against at this moment. against at this moment. >> All right, this broke shortly after we >> All right, this broke shortly after we >> All right, this broke shortly after we taped our episode last week. We tape on taped our episode last week. We tape on taped our episode last week. We tape on Thursdays, we drop on Fridays as fans of Thursdays, we drop on Fridays as fans of Thursdays, we drop on Fridays as fans of the show know. the show know. the show know. Well, the US government has pulled the Well, the US government has pulled the Well, the US government has pulled the plug on Anthropic's latest model. You've plug on Anthropic's latest model. You've plug on Anthropic's latest model. You've heard us talk about that as Mythos. heard us talk about that as Mythos. heard us talk about that as Mythos. They released it as a controlled version They released it as a controlled version They released it as a controlled version called Fable 5. So, there was Mythos, called Fable 5. So, there was Mythos, called Fable 5. So, there was Mythos, that was the one they held for 30 days that was the one they held for 30 days that was the one they held for 30 days while they were doing security while they were doing security while they were doing security cybersecurity testing. Then they cybersecurity testing. Then they cybersecurity testing. Then they released it as Fable in a a bit of a um released it as Fable in a a bit of a um released it as Fable in a a bit of a um guardrailed version of it. Commerce guardrailed version of it. Commerce guardrailed version of it. Commerce Secretary Howard Lutnick told Anthropic Secretary Howard Lutnick told Anthropic Secretary Howard Lutnick told Anthropic to restrict that model to US citizens to restrict that model to US citizens to restrict that model to US citizens last week, last week, last week, last Friday in fact. Anthropic couldn't last Friday in fact. Anthropic couldn't last Friday in fact. Anthropic couldn't implement those restrictions or wouldn't implement those restrictions or wouldn't implement those restrictions or wouldn't in that granular of a way, so they just in that granular of a way, so they just in that granular of a way, so they just decided to do something more decided to do something more decided to do something more conservative and shut it down for conservative and shut it down for conservative and shut it down for everybody. This of course created a lot everybody. This of course created a lot everybody. This of course created a lot of hand-wringing in the industry, of hand-wringing in the industry, of hand-wringing in the industry, rug-pulling, "Oh my god, we lost this rug-pulling, "Oh my god, we lost this rug-pulling, "Oh my god, we lost this great model, and what does that mean if great model, and what does that mean if great model, and what does that mean if I build my models on top of Anthropic? I build my models on top of Anthropic? I build my models on top of Anthropic? Can I trust them? Yada yada." Can I trust them? Yada yada." Can I trust them? Yada yada." And this was just days after the model And this was just days after the model And this was just days after the model was launched on June 9th. was launched on June 9th. was launched on June 9th. How this all started seems to be that How this all started seems to be that How this all started seems to be that Amazon CEO Andy Jassy, who owns a large Amazon CEO Andy Jassy, who owns a large Amazon CEO Andy Jassy, who owns a large Amazon is a an early investor in Amazon is a an early investor in Amazon is a an early investor in Anthropic and they own a large portion Anthropic and they own a large portion Anthropic and they own a large portion of it. He had told the administration of it. He had told the administration of it. He had told the administration that there was a security vulnerability that there was a security vulnerability that there was a security vulnerability in Fable 5 that they were able to bypass in Fable 5 that they were able to bypass in Fable 5 that they were able to bypass to jailbreak the guardrails that to jailbreak the guardrails that to jailbreak the guardrails that Anthropic put on it. Anthropic put on it. Anthropic put on it. Dario said the jailbreak wasn't serious. Dario said the jailbreak wasn't serious. Dario said the jailbreak wasn't serious. There seems to be some finger pointing There seems to be some finger pointing There seems to be some finger pointing and back and forth. and back and forth. and back and forth. And Dario said it was narrow. And Dario said it was narrow. And Dario said it was narrow. Separately, Semaphore, a publication, Separately, Semaphore, a publication, Separately, Semaphore, a publication, like an email publication, reported that like an email publication, reported that like an email publication, reported that the White House acted the White House acted the White House acted partially over suspicion that a partially over suspicion that a partially over suspicion that a China-linked group had access to China-linked group had access to China-linked group had access to Methuselah and they weren't supposed to. Methuselah and they weren't supposed to. Methuselah and they weren't supposed to. Wired reported that this group was South Wired reported that this group was South Wired reported that this group was South Korea's SK Telecom. Now you're saying, Korea's SK Telecom. Now you're saying, Korea's SK Telecom. Now you're saying, "Hey, how does South Korea have anything "Hey, how does South Korea have anything "Hey, how does South Korea have anything to do with China?" Well, they have a to do with China?" Well, they have a to do with China?" Well, they have a long-standing or there are long-standing long-standing or there are long-standing long-standing or there are long-standing allegations that SK has a relationship allegations that SK has a relationship allegations that SK has a relationship with China. The White House previously with China. The White House previously with China. The White House previously ordered Anthropic to revoke SK Telecom's ordered Anthropic to revoke SK Telecom's ordered Anthropic to revoke SK Telecom's access to Methuselah. They're kind of access to Methuselah. They're kind of access to Methuselah. They're kind of like the Verizon, 70% market share for like the Verizon, 70% market share for like the Verizon, 70% market share for telecom in South Korea. According to the telecom in South Korea. According to the telecom in South Korea. According to the Washington Post, Anthropic did not Washington Post, Anthropic did not Washington Post, Anthropic did not initially disclose it had given initially disclose it had given initially disclose it had given Methuselah to SK Telecom. Methuselah to SK Telecom. Methuselah to SK Telecom. And this happened before all the export And this happened before all the export And this happened before all the export controls, quote, "badly damaged controls, quote, "badly damaged controls, quote, "badly damaged officials' confidence in the company's officials' confidence in the company's officials' confidence in the company's ability to safeguard sensitive ability to safeguard sensitive ability to safeguard sensitive technology." Anthropic says the White technology." Anthropic says the White technology." Anthropic says the White House never raised the Chinese access in House never raised the Chinese access in House never raised the Chinese access in the Fable jailbreak conversations. the Fable jailbreak conversations. the Fable jailbreak conversations. There's a lot of finger-pointing and There's a lot of finger-pointing and There's a lot of finger-pointing and perhaps perhaps perhaps Nobody is closer to this except the Nobody is closer to this except the Nobody is closer to this except the principals and you, David Sacks. So, principals and you, David Sacks. So, principals and you, David Sacks. So, tell us, what is going on here? Is this tell us, what is going on here? Is this tell us, what is going on here? Is this politics and political between Anthropic politics and political between Anthropic politics and political between Anthropic and the administration? Is this a and the administration? Is this a and the administration? Is this a misunderstanding? misunderstanding? misunderstanding? Or is this, Or is this, Or is this, you know, the future of what's to come you know, the future of what's to come you know, the future of what's to come as these models become more powerful? as these models become more powerful? as these models become more powerful? >> Well, let me give you an update based on >> Well, let me give you an update based on >> Well, let me give you an update based on what I learned. This would have been what I learned. This would have been what I learned. This would have been last Friday and Saturday. So, by that last Friday and Saturday. So, by that last Friday and Saturday. So, by that point I got a readout from various folks point I got a readout from various folks point I got a readout from various folks at the White House about what happened at the White House about what happened at the White House about what happened around the time that that letter was around the time that that letter was around the time that that letter was sent to Anthropic. And I then summarize sent to Anthropic. And I then summarize sent to Anthropic. And I then summarize what I learned in that long post on X. what I learned in that long post on X. what I learned in that long post on X. And no one told me what to say. And no one told me what to say. And no one told me what to say. I just listened to these various I just listened to these various I just listened to these various officials explain themselves. I also officials explain themselves. I also officials explain themselves. I also heard from let's say some of the private heard from let's say some of the private heard from let's say some of the private companies who were involved in this. And companies who were involved in this. And companies who were involved in this. And all I asked was, "Listen, I think this all I asked was, "Listen, I think this all I asked was, "Listen, I think this context would be helpful to provide." context would be helpful to provide." context would be helpful to provide." They said, "Sure, you can publish it." They said, "Sure, you can publish it." They said, "Sure, you can publish it." So, I posted my summary of all that's So, I posted my summary of all that's So, I posted my summary of all that's happening. And whether you agree with happening. And whether you agree with happening. And whether you agree with the decisions of those officials or not, the decisions of those officials or not, the decisions of those officials or not, I do think that my post provides a I do think that my post provides a I do think that my post provides a window into exactly what they were window into exactly what they were window into exactly what they were thinking at that time. And what this thinking at that time. And what this thinking at that time. And what this comes down to is a couple of things. So, comes down to is a couple of things. So, comes down to is a couple of things. So, first of all, like you said, Dario came first of all, like you said, Dario came first of all, like you said, Dario came to Washington a few months ago. This is to Washington a few months ago. This is to Washington a few months ago. This is back in April and basically said that he back in April and basically said that he back in April and basically said that he had created a cyber weapon called had created a cyber weapon called had created a cyber weapon called Mythos. And he spiked the cortisol Mythos. And he spiked the cortisol Mythos. And he spiked the cortisol level, got everyone really worried. level, got everyone really worried. level, got everyone really worried. And there was some truth to it in terms And there was some truth to it in terms And there was some truth to it in terms of the sense that this model had of the sense that this model had of the sense that this model had advanced cyber capabilities, but he got advanced cyber capabilities, but he got advanced cyber capabilities, but he got everybody very focused on this problem. everybody very focused on this problem. everybody very focused on this problem. So, mission accomplished. They then had So, mission accomplished. They then had So, mission accomplished. They then had this pilot program for Mythos, this this pilot program for Mythos, this this pilot program for Mythos, this trusted partners program. And as the trusted partners program. And as the trusted partners program. And as the Washington Post reported, Anthropic Washington Post reported, Anthropic Washington Post reported, Anthropic expanded the program to something like expanded the program to something like expanded the program to something like 50 companies or more without consulting 50 companies or more without consulting 50 companies or more without consulting the White House. And according to the the White House. And according to the the White House. And according to the Washington Post, I can't confirm I don't Washington Post, I can't confirm I don't Washington Post, I can't confirm I don't have any firsthand knowledge of this, have any firsthand knowledge of this, have any firsthand knowledge of this, but I don't have any reason to but I don't have any reason to but I don't have any reason to to question the the Washington Post's to question the the Washington Post's to question the the Washington Post's reporting on this. They did share Mythos reporting on this. They did share Mythos reporting on this. They did share Mythos with a company that with a company that with a company that the White House believes it should not the White House believes it should not the White House believes it should not have been shared with. So, think about have been shared with. So, think about have been shared with. So, think about that. They're sharing these capabilities that. They're sharing these capabilities that. They're sharing these capabilities that Dario himself has said is a cyber that Dario himself has said is a cyber that Dario himself has said is a cyber weapon weapon weapon with with with parties that the White House and really parties that the White House and really parties that the White House and really we're talking about the national we're talking about the national we're talking about the national security officials believe might have security officials believe might have security officials believe might have connections to China. connections to China. connections to China. >> That's SK Telecom according these >> That's SK Telecom according these >> That's SK Telecom according these reports. reports. reports. >> going to say who it was. I know that's >> going to say who it was. I know that's >> going to say who it was. I know that's been reported. I don't have any been reported. I don't have any been reported. I don't have any first-hand knowledge of that. first-hand knowledge of that. first-hand knowledge of that. >> Okay. >> Okay. >> Okay. >> I'm just reporting what was in the >> I'm just reporting what was in the >> I'm just reporting what was in the Washington Post. But, you have to Washington Post. But, you have to Washington Post. But, you have to understand that that's the context. So, understand that that's the context. So, understand that that's the context. So, first of all, you got Anthropic first of all, you got Anthropic first of all, you got Anthropic effectively conducting its own foreign effectively conducting its own foreign effectively conducting its own foreign policy here, expanding the Mythos policy here, expanding the Mythos policy here, expanding the Mythos preview to groups that the White House preview to groups that the White House preview to groups that the White House didn't have any knowledge of. And then didn't have any knowledge of. And then didn't have any knowledge of. And then once they found out, once they found out, once they found out, the White House, you know, this is the White House, you know, this is the White House, you know, this is really the role of what the White House really the role of what the White House really the role of what the White House wanted is, "Look, we have classified wanted is, "Look, we have classified wanted is, "Look, we have classified information that you don't have. We know information that you don't have. We know information that you don't have. We know that there are certain groups that that there are certain groups that that there are certain groups that shouldn't be getting this." shouldn't be getting this." shouldn't be getting this." And Anthropic expanded the pilot without And Anthropic expanded the pilot without And Anthropic expanded the pilot without consulting, which is again sort of consulting, which is again sort of consulting, which is again sort of bewildering because the whole point of bewildering because the whole point of bewildering because the whole point of what they were supposedly doing by what they were supposedly doing by what they were supposedly doing by trying to get this pre-approval regime trying to get this pre-approval regime trying to get this pre-approval regime was to consult with the government. So, was to consult with the government. So, was to consult with the government. So, really that was the predicate for this. really that was the predicate for this. really that was the predicate for this. And apparently, again, this is according And apparently, again, this is according And apparently, again, this is according to the Washington Post, that's when to the Washington Post, that's when to the Washington Post, that's when conversations started about whether a conversations started about whether a conversations started about whether a model like Mythos needed to be export model like Mythos needed to be export model like Mythos needed to be export controlled. controlled. controlled. >> Okay. >> Okay. >> Okay. >> Then you have the launch of Fable, which >> Then you have the launch of Fable, which >> Then you have the launch of Fable, which is basically Mythos with guardrails. is basically Mythos with guardrails. is basically Mythos with guardrails. Again, if those guardrails fail, Again, if those guardrails fail, Again, if those guardrails fail, then you have a cyber weapon being then you have a cyber weapon being then you have a cyber weapon being released to the public. And it wasn't released to the public. And it wasn't released to the public. And it wasn't the White House who came to the the White House who came to the the White House who came to the conclusion that the guardrails failed. conclusion that the guardrails failed. conclusion that the guardrails failed. It was private companies who were It was private companies who were It was private companies who were testing testing testing Fable, testing those guardrails. And as Fable, testing those guardrails. And as Fable, testing those guardrails. And as has been publicly reported, one of them has been publicly reported, one of them has been publicly reported, one of them was Anthropic's largest shareholder was Anthropic's largest shareholder was Anthropic's largest shareholder and cloud partner. and cloud partner. and cloud partner. >> Amazon. >> Amazon. >> Amazon. >> Well, again, I'm not going to confirm, >> Well, again, I'm not going to confirm, >> Well, again, I'm not going to confirm, but I think we all can read the but I think we all can read the but I think we all can read the publications, okay? publications, okay? publications, okay? >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> So, again, normally I wouldn't mention >> So, again, normally I wouldn't mention >> So, again, normally I wouldn't mention names at all, but this is all widely names at all, but this is all widely names at all, but this is all widely reported, okay? reported, okay? reported, okay? In any event, In any event, In any event, they they they I think tried to convey their findings I think tried to convey their findings I think tried to convey their findings to Anthropic. I think there was some to Anthropic. I think there was some to Anthropic. I think there was some sort of breakdown in communication. I sort of breakdown in communication. I sort of breakdown in communication. I don't really understand, but they felt don't really understand, but they felt don't really understand, but they felt the need to escalate it to the White the need to escalate it to the White the need to escalate it to the White House. House. House. And it's almost like a whistleblower, And it's almost like a whistleblower, And it's almost like a whistleblower, okay? Um because they have no reason to okay? Um because they have no reason to okay? Um because they have no reason to lie about this. I mean, again, they are lie about this. I mean, again, they are lie about this. I mean, again, they are Anthropic is a Anthropic is a Anthropic is a >> reason to Yeah, I mean, they're >> reason to Yeah, I mean, they're >> reason to Yeah, I mean, they're partners, so that's even reason to partners, so that's even reason to partners, so that's even reason to support Anthropic. Obviously, Sachs, support Anthropic. Obviously, Sachs, support Anthropic. Obviously, Sachs, they would have told Anthropic first, they would have told Anthropic first, they would have told Anthropic first, but the fact that Andy Jassy got but the fact that Andy Jassy got but the fact that Andy Jassy got involved in this at all means somebody involved in this at all means somebody involved in this at all means somebody on the team must have said, "Hey, on the on the team must have said, "Hey, on the on the team must have said, "Hey, on the security team at Amazon who has to host security team at Amazon who has to host security team at Amazon who has to host these models and hey, this is these models and hey, this is these models and hey, this is something that could be a liability for something that could be a liability for something that could be a liability for us, Amazon, and could be a national us, Amazon, and could be a national us, Amazon, and could be a national security threat." That's why Andy Jassy security threat." That's why Andy Jassy security threat." That's why Andy Jassy made that call because somebody put that made that call because somebody put that made that call because somebody put that into a Slack room somewhere or into a Slack room somewhere or into a Slack room somewhere or documented it. documented it. documented it. >> Oh, no, it wasn't just >> Oh, no, it wasn't just >> Oh, no, it wasn't just They don't do things like that based on They don't do things like that based on They don't do things like that based on a Slack room, okay? They had a Slack room, okay? They had a Slack room, okay? They had >> in the security team reported it, right? >> in the security team reported it, right? >> in the security team reported it, right? >> Amazon Amazon is part of Mythos preview >> Amazon Amazon is part of Mythos preview >> Amazon Amazon is part of Mythos preview and they are also testing Fable, and they are also testing Fable, and they are also testing Fable, remember? They've got the biggest cloud remember? They've got the biggest cloud remember? They've got the biggest cloud to protect. We're talking about AWS. to protect. We're talking about AWS. to protect. We're talking about AWS. They've got teams banging on this and They've got teams banging on this and They've got teams banging on this and making sure the guardrails are safe. making sure the guardrails are safe. making sure the guardrails are safe. And And And as has been publicly reported, they came as has been publicly reported, they came as has been publicly reported, they came to the conclusion that there was a to the conclusion that there was a to the conclusion that there was a jailbreak and that this was serious jailbreak and that this was serious jailbreak and that this was serious security problem. So, they then escalate security problem. So, they then escalate security problem. So, they then escalate to the White House and to the White House and to the White House and again, then this is where my summary again, then this is where my summary again, then this is where my summary takes over based on me hearing firsthand takes over based on me hearing firsthand takes over based on me hearing firsthand from these officials. They tried to call from these officials. They tried to call from these officials. They tried to call Anthropic, they tried to call Dario, and Anthropic, they tried to call Dario, and Anthropic, they tried to call Dario, and there were a number of conversations and there were a number of conversations and there were a number of conversations and the TLDR of it is Dario refused, meaning the TLDR of it is Dario refused, meaning the TLDR of it is Dario refused, meaning refused their request to take down Fable refused their request to take down Fable refused their request to take down Fable until this jailbreak could be fixed. until this jailbreak could be fixed. until this jailbreak could be fixed. And again, the White House was really And again, the White House was really And again, the White House was really just, I think, bewildered and confused just, I think, bewildered and confused just, I think, bewildered and confused by that because again, it's so off-brand by that because again, it's so off-brand by that because again, it's so off-brand for Anthropic. They claim to be the AI for Anthropic. They claim to be the AI for Anthropic. They claim to be the AI safety company. And yet, here, the White safety company. And yet, here, the White safety company. And yet, here, the White House is reacting to credible House is reacting to credible House is reacting to credible information about a major security information about a major security information about a major security threat from Anthropic's own partner, threat from Anthropic's own partner, threat from Anthropic's own partner, and instead of basically saying, "Yes, and instead of basically saying, "Yes, and instead of basically saying, "Yes, we'll react on this right away." they we'll react on this right away." they we'll react on this right away." they get the Heisman. get the Heisman. get the Heisman. I mean, just imagine this call. I mean, just imagine this call. I mean, just imagine this call. Apparently, again, reportedly, the Apparently, again, reportedly, the Apparently, again, reportedly, the Treasury Secretary of the United States Treasury Secretary of the United States Treasury Secretary of the United States called Dario personally. called Dario personally. called Dario personally. I mean, why wouldn't this be a 5-minute I mean, why wouldn't this be a 5-minute I mean, why wouldn't this be a 5-minute call? Why wouldn't Dario just say, "Yes, call? Why wouldn't Dario just say, "Yes, call? Why wouldn't Dario just say, "Yes, sir. We take security more seriously sir. We take security more seriously sir. We take security more seriously than anybody else. We'll fix the than anybody else. We'll fix the than anybody else. We'll fix the problem. Thank you for taking the time problem. Thank you for taking the time problem. Thank you for taking the time to call us out of your busy day. We're to call us out of your busy day. We're to call us out of your busy day. We're going to handle it right now." Click. going to handle it right now." Click. going to handle it right now." Click. And instead of doing that, you know, And instead of doing that, you know, And instead of doing that, you know, what the administration heard, and I'm what the administration heard, and I'm what the administration heard, and I'm not saying maybe Dario didn't mean to not saying maybe Dario didn't mean to not saying maybe Dario didn't mean to communicate this, but he sort of communicate this, but he sort of communicate this, but he sort of pedantically argued that this jailbreak pedantically argued that this jailbreak pedantically argued that this jailbreak wasn't really a serious issue. And we wasn't really a serious issue. And we wasn't really a serious issue. And we know that to be true because, you don't know that to be true because, you don't know that to be true because, you don't have to take the administration's word have to take the administration's word have to take the administration's word for it. Dario then published a blog post for it. Dario then published a blog post for it. Dario then published a blog post that basically conveyed the idea that, that basically conveyed the idea that, that basically conveyed the idea that, well, not all jailbreaks are that bad, well, not all jailbreaks are that bad, well, not all jailbreaks are that bad, and trying to differentiate between good and trying to differentiate between good and trying to differentiate between good jailbreaks and bad jailbreaks. jailbreaks and bad jailbreaks. jailbreaks and bad jailbreaks. >> Minor ones, major ones. >> Minor ones, major ones. >> Minor ones, major ones. >> Minor ones, major ones, whatever. >> Minor ones, major ones, whatever. >> Minor ones, major ones, whatever. You know, again, very off-brand for You know, again, very off-brand for You know, again, very off-brand for them. I didn't know until now that that them. I didn't know until now that that them. I didn't know until now that that was the case. And remember, this is all was the case. And remember, this is all was the case. And remember, this is all downstream of the fact that Dario primed downstream of the fact that Dario primed downstream of the fact that Dario primed all of these officials to view Mythos as all of these officials to view Mythos as all of these officials to view Mythos as a cyber weapon, and to view, therefore, a cyber weapon, and to view, therefore, a cyber weapon, and to view, therefore, Fable as a cyber weapon if the Fable as a cyber weapon if the Fable as a cyber weapon if the guardrails failed. And they already had guardrails failed. And they already had guardrails failed. And they already had problems with the Mythos preview being problems with the Mythos preview being problems with the Mythos preview being overextended to parties that they didn't overextended to parties that they didn't overextended to parties that they didn't approve of. So, look, I think maybe approve of. So, look, I think maybe approve of. So, look, I think maybe there's room in here to give Dario some there's room in here to give Dario some there's room in here to give Dario some grace. Maybe he didn't interpret this grace. Maybe he didn't interpret this grace. Maybe he didn't interpret this correctly, what have you. But, this was correctly, what have you. But, this was correctly, what have you. But, this was the way that the administration the way that the administration the way that the administration perceived the situation that they were perceived the situation that they were perceived the situation that they were in as of whatever that day was a week in as of whatever that day was a week in as of whatever that day was a week ago, last Thursday. ago, last Thursday. ago, last Thursday. And they reacted by sending the export And they reacted by sending the export And they reacted by sending the export control letter because they wanted Fable control letter because they wanted Fable control letter because they wanted Fable to come down until the guardrails were to come down until the guardrails were to come down until the guardrails were put in place. Now, we're in a situation put in place. Now, we're in a situation put in place. Now, we're in a situation where Anthropic is negotiating with the where Anthropic is negotiating with the where Anthropic is negotiating with the government to government to government to try and fix the situation. Look, once try and fix the situation. Look, once try and fix the situation. Look, once you're in one of these situations, it's you're in one of these situations, it's you're in one of these situations, it's always harder always harder always harder to extricate yourself than to avoid to extricate yourself than to avoid to extricate yourself than to avoid getting in them in the first place getting in them in the first place getting in them in the first place because the trust is broken. The trust because the trust is broken. The trust because the trust is broken. The trust is now gone. is now gone. is now gone. And look, I hope this does get resolved And look, I hope this does get resolved And look, I hope this does get resolved as quickly as possible because I don't as quickly as possible because I don't as quickly as possible because I don't view what the administration did as a view what the administration did as a view what the administration did as a policy making exercise. Some people are policy making exercise. Some people are policy making exercise. Some people are saying that this export control letter saying that this export control letter saying that this export control letter is now a new type of policy. Now the is now a new type of policy. Now the is now a new type of policy. Now the government has to approve every model government has to approve every model government has to approve every model release. I don't think that was the release. I don't think that was the release. I don't think that was the intention. I think this was a reaction intention. I think this was a reaction intention. I think this was a reaction by the administration to a credible by the administration to a credible by the administration to a credible report of a national security threat and report of a national security threat and report of a national security threat and they felt that they had no they felt that they had no they felt that they had no alternative but to react immediately alternative but to react immediately alternative but to react immediately with the tools that they had available with the tools that they had available with the tools that they had available to themselves. to themselves. to themselves. So, I hope that this problem gets fixed So, I hope that this problem gets fixed So, I hope that this problem gets fixed and then we have a serious deliberative and then we have a serious deliberative and then we have a serious deliberative policy conversation about what the right policy conversation about what the right policy conversation about what the right hoops should be for models that are hoops should be for models that are hoops should be for models that are cyber weapons. cyber weapons. cyber weapons. >> And reviewing these models, which yeah, >> And reviewing these models, which yeah, >> And reviewing these models, which yeah, let's pause there cuz we're going to get let's pause there cuz we're going to get let's pause there cuz we're going to get into model reviews and what's the best into model reviews and what's the best into model reviews and what's the best way to do that. Chamath, what's your way to do that. Chamath, what's your way to do that. Chamath, what's your take on this situation take on this situation take on this situation uh in terms of uh in terms of uh in terms of maybe a little bit of maybe a little bit of maybe a little bit of I don't know, your handicapping of the I don't know, your handicapping of the I don't know, your handicapping of the situation with the relationship with situation with the relationship with situation with the relationship with Amazon. I think that's kind of an Amazon. I think that's kind of an Amazon. I think that's kind of an interesting angle or if you have a interesting angle or if you have a interesting angle or if you have a different angle you want to take. different angle you want to take. different angle you want to take. >> I think the leaders of the Frontier Labs >> I think the leaders of the Frontier Labs >> I think the leaders of the Frontier Labs leave a lot to be desired. leave a lot to be desired. leave a lot to be desired. >> Okay. >> Okay. >> Okay. >> I think what we're seeing is a >> I think what we're seeing is a >> I think what we're seeing is a consistent pattern of evasiveness and consistent pattern of evasiveness and consistent pattern of evasiveness and immaturity. immaturity. immaturity. And I think that that does a huge And I think that that does a huge And I think that that does a huge disservice to the entire movement of AI. Maybe to connect the movement of AI. Maybe to connect the dots between this and what Freeburg dots between this and what Freeburg dots between this and what Freeburg said. said. said. I couldn't agree more with what he said. I couldn't agree more with what he said. I couldn't agree more with what he said. The key The key The key to a vibrant life to a vibrant life to a vibrant life is rooted in economic mobility and I is rooted in economic mobility and I is rooted in economic mobility and I think AI is the grand leveler. It is the think AI is the grand leveler. It is the think AI is the grand leveler. It is the thing that can enable thing that can enable thing that can enable everyone to have everyone to have everyone to have unique amounts of economic mobility unique amounts of economic mobility unique amounts of economic mobility because they are unencumbered because they are unencumbered because they are unencumbered to figure out what their upper bound is. to figure out what their upper bound is. to figure out what their upper bound is. And against that backdrop, which is an And against that backdrop, which is an And against that backdrop, which is an incredibly positive sum incredibly positive sum incredibly positive sum view of the world, but I think it's view of the world, but I think it's view of the world, but I think it's accurate. accurate. accurate. We have to live in this constant We have to live in this constant We have to live in this constant doomerism, hype cycle, doomerism, hype cycle, doomerism, hype cycle, naivety, naivety, naivety, and I think it and I think it and I think it holds us back. How does it hold us back? holds us back. How does it hold us back? holds us back. How does it hold us back? Tactically, number one, it creates Tactically, number one, it creates Tactically, number one, it creates mistrust. mistrust. mistrust. I think that Silicon Valley was already I think that Silicon Valley was already I think that Silicon Valley was already decaying in the prestige that it held in decaying in the prestige that it held in decaying in the prestige that it held in American society. When I first came here American society. When I first came here American society. When I first came here in 2001, it was a place of misfits that in 2001, it was a place of misfits that in 2001, it was a place of misfits that were good-intentioned, that were doing were good-intentioned, that were doing were good-intentioned, that were doing the right thing, that didn't take the right thing, that didn't take the right thing, that didn't take themselves too seriously, that in themselves too seriously, that in themselves too seriously, that in success wasn't ostentatious, that kind success wasn't ostentatious, that kind success wasn't ostentatious, that kind of kept their head down. of kept their head down. of kept their head down. We built important things. Then, we We built important things. Then, we We built important things. Then, we veered away from that, and we started veered away from that, and we started veered away from that, and we started building less important things. building less important things. building less important things. And now we're at a point where we've And now we're at a point where we've And now we're at a point where we've potentially started to rebuild important potentially started to rebuild important potentially started to rebuild important things again, but we have this veneer of things again, but we have this veneer of things again, but we have this veneer of negativity and mistrust that are created negativity and mistrust that are created negativity and mistrust that are created in large part because we just cannot get in large part because we just cannot get in large part because we just cannot get our [ __ ] together. And our [ __ ] together. And our [ __ ] together. And the leaders of the frontier labs are the leaders of the frontier labs are the leaders of the frontier labs are public enemy number one. public enemy number one. public enemy number one. And so, this entire episode is yet And so, this entire episode is yet And so, this entire episode is yet another proof point that you just can't another proof point that you just can't another proof point that you just can't trust these guys. That's number one. trust these guys. That's number one. trust these guys. That's number one. Number two, Number two, Number two, I think what it creates, I think what it creates, I think what it creates, which I think is bad, which I think is bad, which I think is bad, but what it creates is an incredible but what it creates is an incredible but what it creates is an incredible opportunity for the hyperscalers. opportunity for the hyperscalers. opportunity for the hyperscalers. And the very simple opportunity is to And the very simple opportunity is to And the very simple opportunity is to convince governments all around the convince governments all around the convince governments all around the world, not just America, world, not just America, world, not just America, that they should be the gatekeeper. A, that they should be the gatekeeper. A, that they should be the gatekeeper. A, you can't trust these guys. B, these you can't trust these guys. B, these you can't trust these guys. B, these models are all over the place. C, let us models are all over the place. C, let us models are all over the place. C, let us be the ones that provision them to the be the ones that provision them to the be the ones that provision them to the world. We will wrap it in KYC. I've been world. We will wrap it in KYC. I've been world. We will wrap it in KYC. I've been now talking about KYC for a while. now talking about KYC for a while. now talking about KYC for a while. Right? Who are these customers? Do they Right? Who are these customers? Do they Right? Who are these customers? Do they have identification? Why are they have identification? Why are they have identification? Why are they allowed to run these models? What are allowed to run these models? What are allowed to run these models? What are they prompting? Let's keep them so that they prompting? Let's keep them so that they prompting? Let's keep them so that there's an audit trail. there's an audit trail. there's an audit trail. All of these things are going to become All of these things are going to become All of these things are going to become issues. issues. issues. The Frontier Lab folks made it an issue The Frontier Lab folks made it an issue The Frontier Lab folks made it an issue because of how they've handled all of because of how they've handled all of because of how they've handled all of this up until now. this up until now. this up until now. And what does that create? Now that And what does that create? Now that And what does that create? Now that creates an oligopoly for AI, the most creates an oligopoly for AI, the most creates an oligopoly for AI, the most powerful, economically leveling powerful, economically leveling powerful, economically leveling instrument we've ever seen, in the hands instrument we've ever seen, in the hands instrument we've ever seen, in the hands of maybe a handful of hyperscalers, who of maybe a handful of hyperscalers, who of maybe a handful of hyperscalers, who by the way would make an incredibly by the way would make an incredibly by the way would make an incredibly compelling argument, and they would be compelling argument, and they would be compelling argument, and they would be right. right. right. And the only counterfactual to it would And the only counterfactual to it would And the only counterfactual to it would be, well, trust us guys, it should be, well, trust us guys, it should be, well, trust us guys, it should actually be much more open in a far more actually be much more open in a far more actually be much more open in a far more distributed environment. If can you distributed environment. If can you distributed environment. If can you imagine the cost and the complexity if imagine the cost and the complexity if imagine the cost and the complexity if you ask the neoscaler you ask the neoscaler you ask the neoscaler to build to build to build the same robust KYC or the same VPC the same robust KYC or the same VPC the same robust KYC or the same VPC infrastructure that Amazon and Microsoft infrastructure that Amazon and Microsoft infrastructure that Amazon and Microsoft and Google have spent decades investing and Google have spent decades investing and Google have spent decades investing trillions of dollars in? It's an trillions of dollars in? It's an trillions of dollars in? It's an impossibility, Jason. So, you can take impossibility, Jason. So, you can take impossibility, Jason. So, you can take all of those data centers off the map. all of those data centers off the map. all of those data centers off the map. You can take all of the neoscaler market You can take all of the neoscaler market You can take all of the neoscaler market off the map. off the map. off the map. All of this was preventable. So, instead All of this was preventable. So, instead All of this was preventable. So, instead of a diverse, robust, open ecosystem of a diverse, robust, open ecosystem of a diverse, robust, open ecosystem giving a tool giving a tool giving a tool that is the fundamental unlock for that is the fundamental unlock for that is the fundamental unlock for humans, we are now going to debate humans, we are now going to debate humans, we are now going to debate gatekeeping and duopoly versus gatekeeping and duopoly versus gatekeeping and duopoly versus oligopoly. oligopoly. oligopoly. They have created a total mess, and it's They have created a total mess, and it's They have created a total mess, and it's a shame. a shame. a shame. >> So, instead of people, just to summarize >> So, instead of people, just to summarize >> So, instead of people, just to summarize that, instead of people being able to that, instead of people being able to that, instead of people being able to use the model they want from the use the model they want from the use the model they want from the provider they want, you're going to have provider they want, you're going to have provider they want, you're going to have to put in your driver's license, your to put in your driver's license, your to put in your driver's license, your tax ID, your social security number, tax ID, your social security number, tax ID, your social security number, whatever it is. whatever it is. whatever it is. >> to Amazon Web Services or Google. >> to Amazon Web Services or Google. >> to Amazon Web Services or Google. >> If you have to put in your driver's >> If you have to put in your driver's >> If you have to put in your driver's license to buy fertilizer, you're sure license to buy fertilizer, you're sure license to buy fertilizer, you're sure as [ __ ] will have to put in your as [ __ ] will have to put in your as [ __ ] will have to put in your driver's license to use Fable 5, which driver's license to use Fable 5, which driver's license to use Fable 5, which is the precursor to know how to use is the precursor to know how to use is the precursor to know how to use fertilizer to make the bomb. fertilizer to make the bomb. fertilizer to make the bomb. >> Yeah, as we talked about last week. >> Yeah, as we talked about last week. >> Yeah, as we talked about last week. >> Sorry, last thing. Total own goal. And >> Sorry, last thing. Total own goal. And >> Sorry, last thing. Total own goal. And then what does it do? We in Silicon then what does it do? We in Silicon then what does it do? We in Silicon Valley, yet again, Valley, yet again, Valley, yet again, look like people that have just look like people that have just look like people that have just optimized for our own selves. We take optimized for our own selves. We take optimized for our own selves. We take ourselves seriously. We take nobody else ourselves seriously. We take nobody else ourselves seriously. We take nobody else seriously, we're not willing to play seriously, we're not willing to play seriously, we're not willing to play ball, it's unserious, it's immature, and ball, it's unserious, it's immature, and ball, it's unserious, it's immature, and it does not help society at large. it does not help society at large. it does not help society at large. >> Okay, Freebird, there's been some talk >> Okay, Freebird, there's been some talk >> Okay, Freebird, there's been some talk about political tribalism here. about political tribalism here. about political tribalism here. And I'll let you take this one. And I'll let you take this one. And I'll let you take this one. Anthropic, the only company that Anthropic, the only company that Anthropic, the only company that doesn't seem to show up when President doesn't seem to show up when President doesn't seem to show up when President Trump has CEOs at the White House. Trump has CEOs at the White House. Trump has CEOs at the White House. Backed by Reid Hoffman, who funded the Backed by Reid Hoffman, who funded the Backed by Reid Hoffman, who funded the lawfare against the White House, lawfare against the White House, lawfare against the White House, cheating uh O'Carroll lawsuit, this cheating uh O'Carroll lawsuit, this cheating uh O'Carroll lawsuit, this lawsuit, that lawsuit. There's major lawsuit, that lawsuit. There's major lawsuit, that lawsuit. There's major beef between the left and the right, and beef between the left and the right, and beef between the left and the right, and Anthropic's in the middle of it. Is this Anthropic's in the middle of it. Is this Anthropic's in the middle of it. Is this the White House treating the White House treating the White House treating Anthropic differently, and do they have Anthropic differently, and do they have Anthropic differently, and do they have it out for Anthropic, and Anthropic is it out for Anthropic, and Anthropic is it out for Anthropic, and Anthropic is basically handing him the ability uh basically handing him the ability uh basically handing him the ability uh to to to take these kind of actions. In other take these kind of actions. In other take these kind of actions. In other words, is this words, is this words, is this political instead of pragmatic and political instead of pragmatic and political instead of pragmatic and practical in your mind? practical in your mind? practical in your mind? >> Well, I mean, I think that >> Well, I mean, I think that >> Well, I mean, I think that there there's no regulatory framework there there's no regulatory framework there there's no regulatory framework today, and so today, and so today, and so antagonizing the government antagonizing the government antagonizing the government to create a regulatory framework, and to create a regulatory framework, and to create a regulatory framework, and then feeling antagonized when they then feeling antagonized when they then feeling antagonized when they regulate you, just seems a little bit regulate you, just seems a little bit regulate you, just seems a little bit weird, and Anthropic seems to be the weird, and Anthropic seems to be the weird, and Anthropic seems to be the only one doing that. So, I don't know if only one doing that. So, I don't know if only one doing that. So, I don't know if it's it's it's a political motivation as much as it is a political motivation as much as it is a political motivation as much as it is like some strange set of behaviors from like some strange set of behaviors from like some strange set of behaviors from Anthropic that that's motivating this Anthropic that that's motivating this Anthropic that that's motivating this perception. perception. perception. Look, I think at the end of the day, Look, I think at the end of the day, Look, I think at the end of the day, we're all losers we're all losers we're all losers if the government is going to be picking if the government is going to be picking if the government is going to be picking winners and losers in AI. winners and losers in AI. winners and losers in AI. And we're all losers if we all have to And we're all losers if we all have to And we're all losers if we all have to be restricted on accessing these tools. be restricted on accessing these tools. be restricted on accessing these tools. At the end of the day, like I've said At the end of the day, like I've said At the end of the day, like I've said before, before, before, you know, an entire AI model can fit on you know, an entire AI model can fit on you know, an entire AI model can fit on a USB drive. a USB drive. a USB drive. And you just need to have good hardware And you just need to have good hardware And you just need to have good hardware to run it. to run it. to run it. And the value of that model is And the value of that model is And the value of that model is time-bound, because at some point a time-bound, because at some point a time-bound, because at some point a better model is going to come around. better model is going to come around. better model is going to come around. So, my point being, I think we're all So, my point being, I think we're all So, my point being, I think we're all losers if there's one stack losers if there's one stack losers if there's one stack that one company owns the whole thing that one company owns the whole thing that one company owns the whole thing and we all have to put in our ID and the and we all have to put in our ID and the and we all have to put in our ID and the government decides who's the winner and government decides who's the winner and government decides who's the winner and who's the loser. None of us are going to who's the loser. None of us are going to who's the loser. None of us are going to be winners in that sense. That's why I be winners in that sense. That's why I be winners in that sense. That's why I think that there's currently think that there's currently think that there's currently a natural market force for two things. a natural market force for two things. a natural market force for two things. One is more open source One is more open source One is more open source and second is a fragmentation of the AI and second is a fragmentation of the AI and second is a fragmentation of the AI stack. stack. stack. If you go back to the 1960s, IBM was the If you go back to the 1960s, IBM was the If you go back to the 1960s, IBM was the predominant provider of mainframe predominant provider of mainframe predominant provider of mainframe computers. computers. computers. And I don't know if you guys remember And I don't know if you guys remember And I don't know if you guys remember this or know this, but like at the time this or know this, but like at the time this or know this, but like at the time IBM did the whole stack. They actually IBM did the whole stack. They actually IBM did the whole stack. They actually made the chips. made the chips. made the chips. >> Yep. >> Yep. >> Yep. >> So, all of the um you know, the I think >> So, all of the um you know, the I think >> So, all of the um you know, the I think it was solid logic technology chips that it was solid logic technology chips that it was solid logic technology chips that IBM created were were made in-house. IBM created were were made in-house. IBM created were were made in-house. They made the hardware. They made the They made the hardware. They made the They made the hardware. They made the operating system. They also made the operating system. They also made the operating system. They also made the software. software. software. And this was the case through the whole And this was the case through the whole And this was the case through the whole mainframe technology era mainframe technology era mainframe technology era that IBM was the monopoly. They had the that IBM was the monopoly. They had the that IBM was the monopoly. They had the whole thing. And then ultimately the whole thing. And then ultimately the whole thing. And then ultimately the government had to intervene to get them government had to intervene to get them government had to intervene to get them to disaggregate the software layer and to disaggregate the software layer and to disaggregate the software layer and that's what actually started the that's what actually started the that's what actually started the independent software vendor era, which independent software vendor era, which independent software vendor era, which is when the software industry really is when the software industry really is when the software industry really started. Was after the government said, started. Was after the government said, started. Was after the government said, "Hey, we shouldn't have one company that "Hey, we shouldn't have one company that "Hey, we shouldn't have one company that has the whole stack in computing." has the whole stack in computing." has the whole stack in computing." Then we get to the '80s Then we get to the '80s Then we get to the '80s and that's when everything and that's when everything and that's when everything disaggregated. Then IBM started buying disaggregated. Then IBM started buying disaggregated. Then IBM started buying the Intel chip for the personal the Intel chip for the personal the Intel chip for the personal computer. They had their own OS, but computer. They had their own OS, but computer. They had their own OS, but ultimately Microsoft came along and made ultimately Microsoft came along and made ultimately Microsoft came along and made a better OS. And then this entire a better OS. And then this entire a better OS. And then this entire proliferation of the software stack with proliferation of the software stack with proliferation of the software stack with independent vendors took off. And I independent vendors took off. And I independent vendors took off. And I think that that ultimately is what think that that ultimately is what think that that ultimately is what allowed this industry to progress. The allowed this industry to progress. The allowed this industry to progress. The productivity boom that arose from both productivity boom that arose from both productivity boom that arose from both mainframe computing and desktop PCs mainframe computing and desktop PCs mainframe computing and desktop PCs was because of this disaggregation that was because of this disaggregation that was because of this disaggregation that happened. I think the same is likely happened. I think the same is likely happened. I think the same is likely going to have to happen with these AI going to have to happen with these AI going to have to happen with these AI companies. companies. companies. And you know, I'm not sure that what And you know, I'm not sure that what And you know, I'm not sure that what we're looking at today as being kind of we're looking at today as being kind of we're looking at today as being kind of some oligopoly of three or four some oligopoly of three or four some oligopoly of three or four businesses is really where we're going businesses is really where we're going businesses is really where we're going to stand. I think the equivalent on the to stand. I think the equivalent on the to stand. I think the equivalent on the hardware side is there's going to be hardware side is there's going to be hardware side is there's going to be multiple chip vendors. There's also multiple chip vendors. There's also multiple chip vendors. There's also going to be multiple clouds. There's going to be multiple clouds. There's going to be multiple clouds. There's also going to be multiple models that also going to be multiple models that also going to be multiple models that run on the clouds. People are also going run on the clouds. People are also going run on the clouds. People are also going to run models locally. They're going to to run models locally. They're going to to run models locally. They're going to use different software factories. use different software factories. use different software factories. They're not just going to use Anthropic. They're not just going to use Anthropic. They're not just going to use Anthropic. They're going to use tools like They're going to use tools like They're going to use tools like Salesforce and, you know, 80 90 and Salesforce and, you know, 80 90 and Salesforce and, you know, 80 90 and other things. They're going to run other things. They're going to run other things. They're going to run different applications on top of it that different applications on top of it that different applications on top of it that are going to be purpose-built or are going to be purpose-built or are going to be purpose-built or custom-built. So, I think there's very custom-built. So, I think there's very custom-built. So, I think there's very likely kind of a diffusion that's likely kind of a diffusion that's likely kind of a diffusion that's happening right now. If it doesn't happening right now. If it doesn't happening right now. If it doesn't happen, it's going to be pretty nasty, happen, it's going to be pretty nasty, happen, it's going to be pretty nasty, but I just think the market forces are but I just think the market forces are but I just think the market forces are so strong for a diffusion of each layer so strong for a diffusion of each layer so strong for a diffusion of each layer in the stack finding its way to the in the stack finding its way to the in the stack finding its way to the cheapest, the more available, the more cheapest, the more available, the more cheapest, the more available, the more accessible partner vendors that we're accessible partner vendors that we're accessible partner vendors that we're very likely going to see these kind of, very likely going to see these kind of, very likely going to see these kind of, you know, handful of oligopolies kind of you know, handful of oligopolies kind of you know, handful of oligopolies kind of break down a little bit. break down a little bit. break down a little bit. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> And so, that's my that's my take on >> And so, that's my that's my take on >> And so, that's my that's my take on this. I'm not sure this. I'm not sure this. I'm not sure I'm not sure that I'm not sure there's I'm not sure that I'm not sure there's I'm not sure that I'm not sure there's going to be a political going to be a political going to be a political capture that's going to happen. It just capture that's going to happen. It just capture that's going to happen. It just seems very unlikely. seems very unlikely. seems very unlikely. >> I I I'm going to steal man >> I I I'm going to steal man >> I I I'm going to steal man for the for the good of the pod and also for the for the good of the pod and also for the for the good of the pod and also a little bit of my personal belief here. a little bit of my personal belief here. a little bit of my personal belief here. I think if we were to take Anthropic's I think if we were to take Anthropic's I think if we were to take Anthropic's name out of their series of behaviors in name out of their series of behaviors in name out of their series of behaviors in how they handled the release of Mythos, how they handled the release of Mythos, how they handled the release of Mythos, let's just say we put Grok in there, let's just say we put Grok in there, let's just say we put Grok in there, OpenAI, or Gemini. Gemini's a good one, OpenAI, or Gemini. Gemini's a good one, OpenAI, or Gemini. Gemini's a good one, Google. They're not totally in the uh Google. They're not totally in the uh Google. They're not totally in the uh in either camp and it's a company that's in either camp and it's a company that's in either camp and it's a company that's been around for a long time. So, Gemini been around for a long time. So, Gemini been around for a long time. So, Gemini comes out with a model. comes out with a model. comes out with a model. When they test it, it's incredible at When they test it, it's incredible at When they test it, it's incredible at hacking and cyber warfare. And they say, hacking and cyber warfare. And they say, hacking and cyber warfare. And they say, you know what? This is incredible. It's you know what? This is incredible. It's you know what? This is incredible. It's super powerful. super powerful. super powerful. We're going to limit it to 50 partners. We're going to limit it to 50 partners. We're going to limit it to 50 partners. And those 50 partners include Microsoft, And those 50 partners include Microsoft, And those 50 partners include Microsoft, etc. They happen to have SK Telecom in etc. They happen to have SK Telecom in etc. They happen to have SK Telecom in there. They make a mistake. They put there. They make a mistake. They put there. They make a mistake. They put them in there. them in there. them in there. And we looked at them and we said, "Hey, And we looked at them and we said, "Hey, And we looked at them and we said, "Hey, holding the model for 30 days while they holding the model for 30 days while they holding the model for 30 days while they test it." We'd say, "Thumbs up. Good test it." We'd say, "Thumbs up. Good test it." We'd say, "Thumbs up. Good move." move." move." And then, one of their partners, Amazon, And then, one of their partners, Amazon, And then, one of their partners, Amazon, says uh "Hey, says uh "Hey, says uh "Hey, we were able to jailbreak this." And we were able to jailbreak this." And we were able to jailbreak this." And they say, "Okay, we're going to they say, "Okay, we're going to they say, "Okay, we're going to put a couple guardrails on this when we put a couple guardrails on this when we put a couple guardrails on this when we put it out, or let's just say second put it out, or let's just say second put it out, or let's just say second phase after they give it to their 50 phase after they give it to their 50 phase after they give it to their 50 partners in control beta. They say we're partners in control beta. They say we're partners in control beta. They say we're going to open it to the public, but going to open it to the public, but going to open it to the public, but we're going to watch every single thing we're going to watch every single thing we're going to watch every single thing you do. I think David, you said this is you do. I think David, you said this is you do. I think David, you said this is a privacy issue. It's pretty standard a privacy issue. It's pretty standard a privacy issue. It's pretty standard actually for when you release something actually for when you release something actually for when you release something like this to monitor it for the first 30 like this to monitor it for the first 30 like this to monitor it for the first 30 days. If you don't want to be have days. If you don't want to be have days. If you don't want to be have people looking at the results, then people looking at the results, then people looking at the results, then don't join the beta. Keep using 4.8, don't join the beta. Keep using 4.8, don't join the beta. Keep using 4.8, don't use the newest one. don't use the newest one. don't use the newest one. And so you'd say thumbs up to that as And so you'd say thumbs up to that as And so you'd say thumbs up to that as well. Hey, they're giving it well. Hey, they're giving it well. Hey, they're giving it only to logged in customers. And if only to logged in customers. And if only to logged in customers. And if somebody does something dangerous, like somebody does something dangerous, like somebody does something dangerous, like they try to get it to do they try to get it to do they try to get it to do nuclear weapons, or last week when I nuclear weapons, or last week when I nuclear weapons, or last week when I asked it about fertilizer regulation, it asked it about fertilizer regulation, it asked it about fertilizer regulation, it dropped me out of the model, right? We dropped me out of the model, right? We dropped me out of the model, right? We would give a thumbs up to that. would give a thumbs up to that. would give a thumbs up to that. And then And then And then if we were asked, hey by the government if we were asked, hey by the government if we were asked, hey by the government to take it down for anybody outside the to take it down for anybody outside the to take it down for anybody outside the United States, and we said, you know United States, and we said, you know United States, and we said, you know what? We'll take it down for everybody. what? We'll take it down for everybody. what? We'll take it down for everybody. Probably give a thumbs up to that too, Probably give a thumbs up to that too, Probably give a thumbs up to that too, if Gemini did it. So there is a definite if Gemini did it. So there is a definite if Gemini did it. So there is a definite backdrop of beef between Anthropic and backdrop of beef between Anthropic and backdrop of beef between Anthropic and this administration. And if you look at this administration. And if you look at this administration. And if you look at the Reid Hoffman connection, you look at the Reid Hoffman connection, you look at the Reid Hoffman connection, you look at Dario who refuses to participate. The Dario who refuses to participate. The Dario who refuses to participate. The people who go work at Anthropic are the people who go work at Anthropic are the people who go work at Anthropic are the people who hate Trump, who hate the people who hate Trump, who hate the people who hate Trump, who hate the Trump administration. They're opting Trump administration. They're opting Trump administration. They're opting into that. If you look at OpenAI and into that. If you look at OpenAI and into that. If you look at OpenAI and Grok, those are the people who are Grok, those are the people who are Grok, those are the people who are largely pro-Trump, uh including Greg largely pro-Trump, uh including Greg largely pro-Trump, uh including Greg Brockman and his wife who gave 25 Brockman and his wife who gave 25 Brockman and his wife who gave 25 million to Trump. So there's a political million to Trump. So there's a political million to Trump. So there's a political underpinning here. Zach, you may not be underpinning here. Zach, you may not be underpinning here. Zach, you may not be able to get into this, I understand able to get into this, I understand able to get into this, I understand that. But that's part of what's going on that. But that's part of what's going on that. But that's part of what's going on here. I think Anthropic actually did a here. I think Anthropic actually did a here. I think Anthropic actually did a really good job of rolling out this really good job of rolling out this really good job of rolling out this model and being conservative about it. model and being conservative about it. model and being conservative about it. I think their comms are the problem. I think their comms are the problem. I think their comms are the problem. Every time Dario talks, it's too much Every time Dario talks, it's too much Every time Dario talks, it's too much talking, and there's too much talking, and there's too much talking, and there's too much fear-mongering. So somebody's got to fix fear-mongering. So somebody's got to fix fear-mongering. So somebody's got to fix the comms over there to your point, the comms over there to your point, the comms over there to your point, Chamath, because Chamath, because Chamath, because the whole industry is going to need to the whole industry is going to need to the whole industry is going to need to be regulated, and I think the industry be regulated, and I think the industry be regulated, and I think the industry needs to regulate themselves. That's the needs to regulate themselves. That's the needs to regulate themselves. That's the key to this. We need to have a set of key to this. We need to have a set of key to this. We need to have a set of tests that Google, Microsoft, Amazon all tests that Google, Microsoft, Amazon all tests that Google, Microsoft, Amazon all agree to, Elon. Hey, these are the agree to, Elon. Hey, these are the agree to, Elon. Hey, these are the things we should test, and they should things we should test, and they should things we should test, and they should self-certify each model before asking self-certify each model before asking self-certify each model before asking the government, which doesn't understand the government, which doesn't understand the government, which doesn't understand the models, to certify them. The the models, to certify them. The the models, to certify them. The industry should have an industry industry should have an industry industry should have an industry certification like they do for countless certification like they do for countless certification like they do for countless other things. I've talked about the MPAA other things. I've talked about the MPAA other things. I've talked about the MPAA and the video game industry. We should and the video game industry. We should and the video game industry. We should just self-certify. It's the simplest just self-certify. It's the simplest just self-certify. It's the simplest thing in the world to do, and then we thing in the world to do, and then we thing in the world to do, and then we could release the models ourselves could release the models ourselves could release the models ourselves without the government getting involved. without the government getting involved. without the government getting involved. Anybody else have any thoughts on this Anybody else have any thoughts on this Anybody else have any thoughts on this before we go on to our next topic? before we go on to our next topic? before we go on to our next topic? >> Well, let me just respond to this >> Well, let me just respond to this >> Well, let me just respond to this accusation. You're saying that this is accusation. You're saying that this is accusation. You're saying that this is somehow politically motivated. There's somehow politically motivated. There's somehow politically motivated. There's just That's just not true. Look, there just That's just not true. Look, there just That's just not true. Look, there are Anthropic aligned influencers who are Anthropic aligned influencers who are Anthropic aligned influencers who are trying to spread the story that all are trying to spread the story that all are trying to spread the story that all of this is basically a beef between me of this is basically a beef between me of this is basically a beef between me and Anthropic. They're trying to say and Anthropic. They're trying to say and Anthropic. They're trying to say that somehow I did this, which obviously that somehow I did this, which obviously that somehow I did this, which obviously is untrue. I don't have the power to do is untrue. I don't have the power to do is untrue. I don't have the power to do it. I'm not a day-to-day employee of the it. I'm not a day-to-day employee of the it. I'm not a day-to-day employee of the White House, and I only got the read out White House, and I only got the read out White House, and I only got the read out of this once the letter was sent. So, of this once the letter was sent. So, of this once the letter was sent. So, you know, I wasn't involved. Secretary you know, I wasn't involved. Secretary you know, I wasn't involved. Secretary of War Pete Hoekstra, he wasn't of War Pete Hoekstra, he wasn't of War Pete Hoekstra, he wasn't involved. People are trying to make it involved. People are trying to make it involved. People are trying to make it sound like this is a beef with sound like this is a beef with sound like this is a beef with the Department of War. Just not true. the Department of War. Just not true. the Department of War. Just not true. This happened as a result of the things This happened as a result of the things This happened as a result of the things I mentioned, which is they got a report I mentioned, which is they got a report I mentioned, which is they got a report of a jailbreak. Dario had the chance to of a jailbreak. Dario had the chance to of a jailbreak. Dario had the chance to fix it. He basically said no. Maybe fix it. He basically said no. Maybe fix it. He basically said no. Maybe that's not the way he thought he was that's not the way he thought he was that's not the way he thought he was communicating, but that's what the communicating, but that's what the communicating, but that's what the administration heard. Dario doubled down administration heard. Dario doubled down administration heard. Dario doubled down that blog post and that had the prior that blog post and that had the prior that blog post and that had the prior history of expanding history of expanding history of expanding the Mythos preview to the Mythos preview to the Mythos preview to at least one company that the at least one company that the at least one company that the administration felt was a national administration felt was a national administration felt was a national security threat. That's the reason it security threat. That's the reason it security threat. That's the reason it happened. It has nothing to do with the happened. It has nothing to do with the happened. It has nothing to do with the beef. And by the way, it was the people beef. And by the way, it was the people beef. And by the way, it was the people in the administration who were most in the administration who were most in the administration who were most sympathetic to Dario and Anthropic who sympathetic to Dario and Anthropic who sympathetic to Dario and Anthropic who wanted to reset this relationship after wanted to reset this relationship after wanted to reset this relationship after the Department of War, and then the Department of War, and then the Department of War, and then Dario basically blew it. Dario basically blew it. Dario basically blew it. >> Yeah, that's the >> Yeah, that's the >> Yeah, that's the >> people. >> people. >> people. So, look, I mean, you can just make So, look, I mean, you can just make So, look, I mean, you can just make stuff up if you want and say stuff up if you want and say stuff up if you want and say >> not making it up. Just, you know, I take >> not making it up. Just, you know, I take >> not making it up. Just, you know, I take offense to that, Sachs, because it's offense to that, Sachs, because it's offense to that, Sachs, because it's your guy Pete Hoekstra who was doing your guy Pete Hoekstra who was doing your guy Pete Hoekstra who was doing tweets like this 3 months ago. tweets like this 3 months ago. tweets like this 3 months ago. Department of War kicked Anthropic out Department of War kicked Anthropic out Department of War kicked Anthropic out out building forever. Every passing day out building forever. Every passing day out building forever. Every passing day proves why this was the right move. I'm proves why this was the right move. I'm proves why this was the right move. I'm not making anything up here. There's not making anything up here. There's not making anything up here. There's serious beef between these folks. If serious beef between these folks. If serious beef between these folks. If you're saying that like this has nothing you're saying that like this has nothing you're saying that like this has nothing to do with this, read the tweet. to do with this, read the tweet. to do with this, read the tweet. >> That was after the letter was sent. >> That was after the letter was sent. >> That was after the letter was sent. Check the the timestamp. Check the the timestamp. Check the the timestamp. >> it. No, no, it's totally fine. There is >> it. No, no, it's totally fine. There is >> it. No, no, it's totally fine. There is beef between Anthropic and the beef between Anthropic and the beef between Anthropic and the administration. To say there's not is administration. To say there's not is administration. To say there's not is just silly. just silly. just silly. >> I didn't say there wasn't a prior >> I didn't say there wasn't a prior >> I didn't say there wasn't a prior history. I'm just saying that that history. I'm just saying that that history. I'm just saying that that wasn't the reason why this happened. wasn't the reason why this happened. wasn't the reason why this happened. This was not a dispute between Anthropic This was not a dispute between Anthropic This was not a dispute between Anthropic and Department of War. This was not a and Department of War. This was not a and Department of War. This was not a dispute between Anthropic and me. We dispute between Anthropic and me. We dispute between Anthropic and me. We were not the parties who were involved. were not the parties who were involved. were not the parties who were involved. >> involved in it. I I didn't say that. >> involved in it. I I didn't say that. >> involved in it. I I didn't say that. >> But neither was Department of War. Now, >> But neither was Department of War. Now, >> But neither was Department of War. Now, what Heggstad's tweet reflects is he what Heggstad's tweet reflects is he what Heggstad's tweet reflects is he feels vindicated. feels vindicated. feels vindicated. There's a sense of vindication that, There's a sense of vindication that, There's a sense of vindication that, "Hey, we had a really difficult time "Hey, we had a really difficult time "Hey, we had a really difficult time with these guys when we did a contract with these guys when we did a contract with these guys when we did a contract negotiation. People may have thought negotiation. People may have thought negotiation. People may have thought that we were the difficult ones. In that we were the difficult ones. In that we were the difficult ones. In fact, we said they were difficult and fact, we said they were difficult and fact, we said they were difficult and communicated in a strange way, and now communicated in a strange way, and now communicated in a strange way, and now everybody else can see it, too." everybody else can see it, too." everybody else can see it, too." So, I think what Heggstad is saying So, I think what Heggstad is saying So, I think what Heggstad is saying there is like, "Hey, we told you so." there is like, "Hey, we told you so." there is like, "Hey, we told you so." But he did not make the decision here. But he did not make the decision here. But he did not make the decision here. This had nothing to do with it. This had nothing to do with it. This had nothing to do with it. And look at the timestamp of that. It And look at the timestamp of that. It And look at the timestamp of that. It was after all this whole series of was after all this whole series of was after all this whole series of events went down. events went down. events went down. >> If I'm a shareholder in Anthropic, >> If I'm a shareholder in Anthropic, >> If I'm a shareholder in Anthropic, I would have told Dario to show up every I would have told Dario to show up every I would have told Dario to show up every time Trump had the CEOs over there, and time Trump had the CEOs over there, and time Trump had the CEOs over there, and I would have told somebody in that I would have told somebody in that I would have told somebody in that management team to drop a 10 25 management team to drop a 10 25 management team to drop a 10 25 million-dollar check into some ballroom million-dollar check into some ballroom million-dollar check into some ballroom or some America, you know, PAC, just or some America, you know, PAC, just or some America, you know, PAC, just like Greg did at OpenAI. like Greg did at OpenAI. like Greg did at OpenAI. >> He really didn't need to do that. All he >> He really didn't need to do that. All he >> He really didn't need to do that. All he needed to do is that when a cabinet needed to do is that when a cabinet needed to do is that when a cabinet secretary calls you and says that we secretary calls you and says that we secretary calls you and says that we have a credible national security threat have a credible national security threat have a credible national security threat reported to us by one of your own most reported to us by one of your own most reported to us by one of your own most trusted partners, that he take it trusted partners, that he take it trusted partners, that he take it seriously. seriously. seriously. >> I mean, he took it down. Well, how more >> I mean, he took it down. Well, how more >> I mean, he took it down. Well, how more seriously can you take it than taking seriously can you take it than taking seriously can you take it than taking the whole thing down? the whole thing down? the whole thing down? >> He didn't take it down until after they >> He didn't take it down until after they >> He didn't take it down until after they got the letter, which was the whole got the letter, which was the whole got the letter, which was the whole point. point. point. >> Yeah. Anyway, can I jump in here? >> Yeah. Anyway, can I jump in here? >> Yeah. Anyway, can I jump in here? >> Please, jump in. Yeah. >> Please, jump in. Yeah. >> Please, jump in. Yeah. >> I had Claude >> I had Claude >> I had Claude read Machines of Loving Grace and AI read Machines of Loving Grace and AI read Machines of Loving Grace and AI policy on The Exponential. And then I policy on The Exponential. And then I policy on The Exponential. And then I asked it to do asked it to do asked it to do >> What is that? >> What is that? >> What is that? >> Uh those are his two long-form >> Uh those are his two long-form >> Uh those are his two long-form essays. essays. essays. >> Dario's? Dario's. Just Just to be clear >> Dario's? Dario's. Just Just to be clear >> Dario's? Dario's. Just Just to be clear for the audience. for the audience. for the audience. >> Yeah. And and I asked it to do a >> Yeah. And and I asked it to do a >> Yeah. And and I asked it to do a psychological analysis. And psychological analysis. And psychological analysis. And Well, no. I mean I mean I'm not joking. Well, no. I mean I mean I'm not joking. Well, no. I mean I mean I'm not joking. I mean I think it's important. You know, I mean I think it's important. You know, I mean I think it's important. You know, and and and use these as insights into his use these as insights into his use these as insights into his personality and give me a psychological personality and give me a psychological personality and give me a psychological analysis of him based on these as well analysis of him based on these as well analysis of him based on these as well as based on the current facts on the as based on the current facts on the as based on the current facts on the ground with Mythos. Be truthful. Don't protect simply because you are an Don't protect simply because you are an Anthropic model. And then I asked it to Anthropic model. And then I asked it to Anthropic model. And then I asked it to refine through the lens of EA movement. refine through the lens of EA movement. refine through the lens of EA movement. And tell me if there's any psychological And tell me if there's any psychological And tell me if there's any psychological leanings. Do you want me to read to you? leanings. Do you want me to read to you? leanings. Do you want me to read to you? >> EA movement, just so people know, is the >> EA movement, just so people know, is the >> EA movement, just so people know, is the accelerator movement to accelerate accelerator movement to accelerate accelerator movement to accelerate society and technology as opposed to society and technology as opposed to society and technology as opposed to decelerate. Okay. I think people decelerate. Okay. I think people decelerate. Okay. I think people understand. Yeah, let's hear what it understand. Yeah, let's hear what it understand. Yeah, let's hear what it said. said. said. >> Okay, two paragraphs. >> Okay, two paragraphs. >> Okay, two paragraphs. >> Delusions of grandeur? >> Delusions of grandeur? >> Delusions of grandeur? >> [laughter] >> [laughter] >> [laughter] >> No, well, let me let me No, I don't I >> No, well, let me let me No, I don't I >> No, well, let me let me No, I don't I don't I don't I'm not saying it to make don't I don't I'm not saying it to make don't I don't I'm not saying it to make fun of him. Look, he's built an fun of him. Look, he's built an fun of him. Look, he's built an incredible business. The shareholders incredible business. The shareholders incredible business. The shareholders are are doing phenomenally well. I think are are doing phenomenally well. I think are are doing phenomenally well. I think the revenue run rate of this business the revenue run rate of this business the revenue run rate of this business continues to accelerate. continues to accelerate. continues to accelerate. All of it's incredible. All of it's incredible. All of it's incredible. But I want to understand this person I But I want to understand this person I But I want to understand this person I am paying millions of dollars. And so, am paying millions of dollars. And so, am paying millions of dollars. And so, you know, I just want to understand. you know, I just want to understand. you know, I just want to understand. >> Here we go. >> Here we go. >> Here we go. >> Okay. >> Okay. >> Okay. He distrusts other labs, He distrusts other labs, He distrusts other labs, positioning them as racing recklessly. positioning them as racing recklessly. positioning them as racing recklessly. He distrusts authoritarian states He distrusts authoritarian states He distrusts authoritarian states because he says they will weaponize AI. because he says they will weaponize AI. because he says they will weaponize AI. He distrusts markets to distribute the He distrusts markets to distribute the He distrusts markets to distribute the gains. gains. gains. He distrusts institutions to move fast He distrusts institutions to move fast He distrusts institutions to move fast enough, and post-Mythos distrusts the enough, and post-Mythos distrusts the enough, and post-Mythos distrusts the government to wield power, {quote} government to wield power, {quote} government to wield power, {quote} transparently and fairly. That's a very transparently and fairly. That's a very transparently and fairly. That's a very long list of untrustworthy actors. The long list of untrustworthy actors. The long list of untrustworthy actors. The list of trustworthy ones is list of trustworthy ones is list of trustworthy ones is conspicuously short, and it has a conspicuously short, and it has a conspicuously short, and it has a suspicious tendency to resolve towards suspicious tendency to resolve towards suspicious tendency to resolve towards people who reason the way I do operating people who reason the way I do operating people who reason the way I do operating under the rules I helped design. When under the rules I helped design. When under the rules I helped design. When your safety framework requires that your safety framework requires that your safety framework requires that someone hold the keys and your analysis someone hold the keys and your analysis someone hold the keys and your analysis keeps concluding the other key holders keeps concluding the other key holders keeps concluding the other key holders can't be trusted, you've built a machine can't be trusted, you've built a machine can't be trusted, you've built a machine that outputs me, no matter what you feed that outputs me, no matter what you feed that outputs me, no matter what you feed it. it. it. EAC would call that a god complex. The EAC would call that a god complex. The EAC would call that a god complex. The more precise term is epistemic more precise term is epistemic more precise term is epistemic exceptionalism. Not that I am superior, exceptionalism. Not that I am superior, exceptionalism. Not that I am superior, but more my reasoning is the but more my reasoning is the but more my reasoning is the load-bearing one. load-bearing one. load-bearing one. And the failure of others to reach my And the failure of others to reach my And the failure of others to reach my conclusions is evidence of their conclusions is evidence of their conclusions is evidence of their corruption or so on, it's not of my corruption or so on, it's not of my corruption or so on, it's not of my error. error. error. That's the genuinely concerning pattern That's the genuinely concerning pattern That's the genuinely concerning pattern and it's worth naming plainly because and it's worth naming plainly because and it's worth naming plainly because it's the engine of the dangerous it's the engine of the dangerous it's the engine of the dangerous version. Once you believe your judgment version. Once you believe your judgment version. Once you believe your judgment is the uncorruptible reference point, is the uncorruptible reference point, is the uncorruptible reference point, every conflict gets recoded. Government every conflict gets recoded. Government every conflict gets recoded. Government overreach isn't powerful actors have overreach isn't powerful actors have overreach isn't powerful actors have competing interests and I lost, it competing interests and I lost, it competing interests and I lost, it becomes they failed to be transparent becomes they failed to be transparent becomes they failed to be transparent and fair. Losing the Pentagon fight and fair. Losing the Pentagon fight and fair. Losing the Pentagon fight isn't a negotiation he misplayed, it's isn't a negotiation he misplayed, it's isn't a negotiation he misplayed, it's evidence the system runs on leverage evidence the system runs on leverage evidence the system runs on leverage instead of reason. instead of reason. instead of reason. The mythos collision is we shipped a The mythos collision is we shipped a The mythos collision is we shipped a dangerous capability and a hostile state dangerous capability and a hostile state dangerous capability and a hostile state reacted predictably. reacted predictably. reacted predictably. It's a misunderstanding. It's a misunderstanding. It's a misunderstanding. The word his company actually used. The word his company actually used. The word his company actually used. Notice that misunderstanding presumes Notice that misunderstanding presumes Notice that misunderstanding presumes that if everyone simply understood that if everyone simply understood that if everyone simply understood correctly, they'd agree with him. That correctly, they'd agree with him. That correctly, they'd agree with him. That word choice under stress is the closest word choice under stress is the closest word choice under stress is the closest thing in the public record to the tell. thing in the public record to the tell. thing in the public record to the tell. It's not megalomania, it's the quieter, It's not megalomania, it's the quieter, It's not megalomania, it's the quieter, more defensible feeling conviction that more defensible feeling conviction that more defensible feeling conviction that disagreement is downstream of error. I disagreement is downstream of error. I disagreement is downstream of error. I thought that was really interesting. thought that was really interesting. thought that was really interesting. >> I mean >> I mean >> I mean >> Well, I think I think it's like super >> Well, I think I think it's like super >> Well, I think I think it's like super accurate. I mean, look, accurate. I mean, look, accurate. I mean, look, there's no question that Anthropic's there's no question that Anthropic's there's no question that Anthropic's whole mantra, and actually Ben Thompson whole mantra, and actually Ben Thompson whole mantra, and actually Ben Thompson pointed this out in one of his pieces, pointed this out in one of his pieces, pointed this out in one of his pieces, is that they believe that AI is super is that they believe that AI is super is that they believe that AI is super dangerous and only they dangerous and only they dangerous and only they are virtuous enough to basically control are virtuous enough to basically control are virtuous enough to basically control the negatives of it. I mean, that is the negatives of it. I mean, that is the negatives of it. I mean, that is basically their view on it. basically their view on it. basically their view on it. >> They're the Jedi. They're the Jedi. They >> They're the Jedi. They're the Jedi. They >> They're the Jedi. They're the Jedi. They believe that they will bring balance to believe that they will bring balance to believe that they will bring balance to the universe and that they are the ones the universe and that they are the ones the universe and that they are the ones who can adjudicate all of these rulings. who can adjudicate all of these rulings. who can adjudicate all of these rulings. Yes, they believe they're superior to Yes, they believe they're superior to Yes, they believe they're superior to everyone else, which is why they are a everyone else, which is why they are a everyone else, which is why they are a magnet for talent. magnet for talent. magnet for talent. >> Now, what I would say is I don't think >> Now, what I would say is I don't think >> Now, what I would say is I don't think that they have a particular problem with that they have a particular problem with that they have a particular problem with the Trump administration per se. What I the Trump administration per se. What I the Trump administration per se. What I would say is they got spoiled by the would say is they got spoiled by the would say is they got spoiled by the Biden administration because they had Biden administration because they had Biden administration because they had totally captured the Biden totally captured the Biden totally captured the Biden administration and the proof of that is administration and the proof of that is administration and the proof of that is the fact that the leaders of the Biden the fact that the leaders of the Biden the fact that the leaders of the Biden administration's AI policy, not just one administration's AI policy, not just one administration's AI policy, not just one of them, but all of them went to go work of them, but all of them went to go work of them, but all of them went to go work in Anthropic like the minute the Biden in Anthropic like the minute the Biden in Anthropic like the minute the Biden administration was over. I'm talking administration was over. I'm talking administration was over. I'm talking about officials who were in charge of AI about officials who were in charge of AI about officials who were in charge of AI for the NSC, the ones who were in charge for the NSC, the ones who were in charge for the NSC, the ones who were in charge of the new AI Safety Institute, which of the new AI Safety Institute, which of the new AI Safety Institute, which was something that Anthropic basically was something that Anthropic basically was something that Anthropic basically set up under the Biden administration. set up under the Biden administration. set up under the Biden administration. The person who was my predecessor The person who was my predecessor The person who was my predecessor effectively is AI's are. They all went effectively is AI's are. They all went effectively is AI's are. They all went to go work at Anthropic. to go work at Anthropic. to go work at Anthropic. >> There's no politics going on here except >> There's no politics going on here except >> There's no politics going on here except it's incredibly tribal. Okay? it's incredibly tribal. Okay? it's incredibly tribal. Okay? >> No, I just think that they got used to >> No, I just think that they got used to >> No, I just think that they got used to the fact they they I mean they were the fact they they I mean they were the fact they they I mean they were incredibly organized for a startup and incredibly organized for a startup and incredibly organized for a startup and prioritized government affairs from an prioritized government affairs from an prioritized government affairs from an early stage, maybe before any other AI early stage, maybe before any other AI early stage, maybe before any other AI company. company. company. And I think Dario went to Washington And I think Dario went to Washington And I think Dario went to Washington very early on and convinced key very early on and convinced key very early on and convinced key officials in the Biden administration of officials in the Biden administration of officials in the Biden administration of this idea that AI was extremely this idea that AI was extremely this idea that AI was extremely dangerous and needed to be controlled by dangerous and needed to be controlled by dangerous and needed to be controlled by the government in some sort of like the government in some sort of like the government in some sort of like merger between the government and then a merger between the government and then a merger between the government and then a very small number of hand-selected very small number of hand-selected very small number of hand-selected companies, two or three of them. It was companies, two or three of them. It was companies, two or three of them. It was that message that Marc Andreessen heard, that message that Marc Andreessen heard, that message that Marc Andreessen heard, which is what caused Remember this when which is what caused Remember this when which is what caused Remember this when he went to go meet with the government he went to go meet with the government he went to go meet with the government and they said, "Don't waste your time and they said, "Don't waste your time and they said, "Don't waste your time investing in different AI companies. investing in different AI companies. investing in different AI companies. We're going to anoint the winners. It's We're going to anoint the winners. It's We're going to anoint the winners. It's only going to be a couple of them. We're only going to be a couple of them. We're only going to be a couple of them. We're going to create a cartel." going to create a cartel." going to create a cartel." I think the way that Anthropic describes I think the way that Anthropic describes I think the way that Anthropic describes it is that they describe competition it is that they describe competition it is that they describe competition between AI companies as a dangerous race between AI companies as a dangerous race between AI companies as a dangerous race condition. condition. condition. Meaning they all just start racing Meaning they all just start racing Meaning they all just start racing towards AGI and therefore safety falls towards AGI and therefore safety falls towards AGI and therefore safety falls by the wayside and they want to by the wayside and they want to by the wayside and they want to centralize and control. They see centralize and control. They see centralize and control. They see competition as a nefarious force, so competition as a nefarious force, so competition as a nefarious force, so they want centralization. They they want centralization. They they want centralization. They effectively want to create a cartel and effectively want to create a cartel and effectively want to create a cartel and that is their view of AI safety. Now, that is their view of AI safety. Now, that is their view of AI safety. Now, you can see how they could see it in you can see how they could see it in you can see how they could see it in their language as being virtuous, but if their language as being virtuous, but if their language as being virtuous, but if you see it from the point of view of you see it from the point of view of you see it from the point of view of what's really happening, which is what's really happening, which is what's really happening, which is they're trying to create a monopoly or they're trying to create a monopoly or they're trying to create a monopoly or duopoly or cartel, it's incredibly duopoly or cartel, it's incredibly duopoly or cartel, it's incredibly self-serving. self-serving. self-serving. And that is the danger. And I do think And that is the danger. And I do think And that is the danger. And I do think that, you know, a fundamental that, you know, a fundamental that, you know, a fundamental philosophical question is whether you philosophical question is whether you philosophical question is whether you think competition is a good force or a think competition is a good force or a think competition is a good force or a bad force. In my opinion, competition is bad force. In my opinion, competition is bad force. In my opinion, competition is a good force. It's what protects a good force. It's what protects a good force. It's what protects consumers. It gives consumers consumers. It gives consumers consumers. It gives consumers choice. It also brings out the best in choice. It also brings out the best in choice. It also brings out the best in competitors and that's regulatory competitors and that's regulatory competitors and that's regulatory capture. capture. capture. >> the power, too, right? You don't have >> the power, too, right? You don't have >> the power, too, right? You don't have one person who you're dependent on. one person who you're dependent on. one person who you're dependent on. >> yes, and it has a greater chance of >> yes, and it has a greater chance of >> yes, and it has a greater chance of leading to decentralization. leading to decentralization. leading to decentralization. I think centralization is the greatest I think centralization is the greatest I think centralization is the greatest threat of AI. threat of AI. threat of AI. Right? You don't want it to become a Right? You don't want it to become a Right? You don't want it to become a totalitarian force. So, there there's a totalitarian force. So, there there's a totalitarian force. So, there there's a fundamental ideological difference here, fundamental ideological difference here, fundamental ideological difference here, but look, you have to say Dario was but look, you have to say Dario was but look, you have to say Dario was incredibly successful incredibly successful incredibly successful at resetting the conversation with at resetting the conversation with at resetting the conversation with Mythos. You go back to I think it was Mythos. You go back to I think it was Mythos. You go back to I think it was April April April and they had just been kicked out of and they had just been kicked out of and they had just been kicked out of Department of War because of that Department of War because of that Department of War because of that unsuccessful contract negotiation. And unsuccessful contract negotiation. And unsuccessful contract negotiation. And then all of a sudden they come to then all of a sudden they come to then all of a sudden they come to Washington and declare they've invented Washington and declare they've invented Washington and declare they've invented this cyber weapon. And they basically this cyber weapon. And they basically this cyber weapon. And they basically freaked everyone out and they got freaked everyone out and they got freaked everyone out and they got everyone to basically go along with everyone to basically go along with everyone to basically go along with their idea of some sort of government their idea of some sort of government their idea of some sort of government approval regime. And it's only because I approval regime. And it's only because I approval regime. And it's only because I think of their own think of their own think of their own I don't know, you could say hubris. I don't know, you could say hubris. I don't know, you could say hubris. >> Hubris or delusion. >> Hubris or delusion. >> Hubris or delusion. >> it. Yeah, their delusions or hubris and >> it. Yeah, their delusions or hubris and >> it. Yeah, their delusions or hubris and they misplayed it and it ended up they misplayed it and it ended up they misplayed it and it ended up getting kicked out under their own getting kicked out under their own getting kicked out under their own nascent pre-approval regime. nascent pre-approval regime. nascent pre-approval regime. >> Hey, uh Friedberg, just one last >> Hey, uh Friedberg, just one last >> Hey, uh Friedberg, just one last question for you. If we do tip over into question for you. If we do tip over into question for you. If we do tip over into superintelligence and it becomes like superintelligence and it becomes like superintelligence and it becomes like cataclysmic for humanity cataclysmic for humanity cataclysmic for humanity and we look back on this conversation, and we look back on this conversation, and we look back on this conversation, what would have been the right thing to what would have been the right thing to what would have been the right thing to do, Pym, do, Pym, do, Pym, for the government? for the government? for the government? >> Again, there's this important force that >> Again, there's this important force that >> Again, there's this important force that needs to continue to maintain its needs to continue to maintain its needs to continue to maintain its strength, which is to strength, which is to strength, which is to avoid the natural instinct to control avoid the natural instinct to control avoid the natural instinct to control this stuff. this stuff. this stuff. This This happened with the desktop This This happened with the desktop This This happened with the desktop computing revolution and the mainframe computing revolution and the mainframe computing revolution and the mainframe computing revolution. Do you guys know computing revolution. Do you guys know computing revolution. Do you guys know there were like there were like there were like articles published in Newsweek and New articles published in Newsweek and New articles published in Newsweek and New York Times in 1961 York Times in 1961 York Times in 1961 that talked about the demise of the that talked about the demise of the that talked about the demise of the workforce because of the computer. They workforce because of the computer. They workforce because of the computer. They said we've now automated everything. said we've now automated everything. said we've now automated everything. Humans are irrelevant. No one will have Humans are irrelevant. No one will have Humans are irrelevant. No one will have a job. The workforce will go away. It a job. The workforce will go away. It a job. The workforce will go away. It was an existential threat in the media was an existential threat in the media was an existential threat in the media at that time. And what happened? The at that time. And what happened? The at that time. And what happened? The mainframe computer drove productivity. mainframe computer drove productivity. mainframe computer drove productivity. Every individual that worked was able to Every individual that worked was able to Every individual that worked was able to do 100 times more work. Then the same do 100 times more work. Then the same do 100 times more work. Then the same thing happened with the desktop thing happened with the desktop thing happened with the desktop computer. And that also enabled economic computer. And that also enabled economic computer. And that also enabled economic mobility and it enabled productivity mobility and it enabled productivity mobility and it enabled productivity gains. It enabled new industries. And gains. It enabled new industries. And gains. It enabled new industries. And everyone said when that happened, this everyone said when that happened, this everyone said when that happened, this is the end of the workforce. No one's is the end of the workforce. No one's is the end of the workforce. No one's going to be able to get a job anymore. going to be able to get a job anymore. going to be able to get a job anymore. Everyone's getting replaced. It's over. Everyone's getting replaced. It's over. Everyone's getting replaced. It's over. We've got to retrain our entire We've got to retrain our entire We've got to retrain our entire workforce. In fact, the federal workforce. In fact, the federal workforce. In fact, the federal government did this deal in the early government did this deal in the early government did this deal in the early '80s. They spent hundreds of millions of '80s. They spent hundreds of millions of '80s. They spent hundreds of millions of dollars in workforce training programs dollars in workforce training programs dollars in workforce training programs that literally did nothing. And it was that literally did nothing. And it was that literally did nothing. And it was all about, "Oh my god, we got to get our all about, "Oh my god, we got to get our all about, "Oh my god, we got to get our workforce ready to transition to the workforce ready to transition to the workforce ready to transition to the desktop computer industry." You know desktop computer industry." You know desktop computer industry." You know what ended up happening? People figured what ended up happening? People figured what ended up happening? People figured [ __ ] out. [ __ ] out. [ __ ] out. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> that difficult to turn on a Windows PC, >> that difficult to turn on a Windows PC, >> that difficult to turn on a Windows PC, right? right? right? >> And companies figured out how to help >> And companies figured out how to help >> And companies figured out how to help employees navigate and transition to employees navigate and transition to employees navigate and transition to higher levels of productivity by taking higher levels of productivity by taking higher levels of productivity by taking advantage of this new technology and advantage of this new technology and advantage of this new technology and these new tools. The same thing is going these new tools. The same thing is going these new tools. The same thing is going to happen here. So this whole notion of to happen here. So this whole notion of to happen here. So this whole notion of AGI wipes out everything and this is the AGI wipes out everything and this is the AGI wipes out everything and this is the end conclusion. There's a deep arrogance end conclusion. There's a deep arrogance end conclusion. There's a deep arrogance to technologists. to technologists. to technologists. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> arrogance and we know it. It's what >> arrogance and we know it. It's what >> arrogance and we know it. It's what drives all of us. But that arrogance drives all of us. But that arrogance drives all of us. But that arrogance always leads to these existential always leads to these existential always leads to these existential conclusions. This will cure all cancer. conclusions. This will cure all cancer. conclusions. This will cure all cancer. This will solve all disease. This will This will solve all disease. This will This will solve all disease. This will eradicate all jobs. None of us And by eradicate all jobs. None of us And by eradicate all jobs. None of us And by the way, no one's immune to this the way, no one's immune to this the way, no one's immune to this arrogant. From Elon to Sam to Dario to arrogant. From Elon to Sam to Dario to arrogant. From Elon to Sam to Dario to all of us. We all assume that this time all of us. We all assume that this time all of us. We all assume that this time is different and everything's about to is different and everything's about to is different and everything's about to change completely. And you know what? It change completely. And you know what? It change completely. And you know what? It doesn't. We're all part of this doesn't. We're all part of this doesn't. We're all part of this long-term continuum of technological and long-term continuum of technological and long-term continuum of technological and productivity improvements driven by productivity improvements driven by productivity improvements driven by human ingenuity which unlocks human human ingenuity which unlocks human human ingenuity which unlocks human potential and gives humans more capacity potential and gives humans more capacity potential and gives humans more capacity to do more [ __ ] and it's awesome and to do more [ __ ] and it's awesome and to do more [ __ ] and it's awesome and there's no job loss and narrative just there's no job loss and narrative just there's no job loss and narrative just you know end of the world and that is you know end of the world and that is you know end of the world and that is driving us all into an insane frenzy. driving us all into an insane frenzy. driving us all into an insane frenzy. Everyone needs to chill the [ __ ] out and Everyone needs to chill the [ __ ] out and Everyone needs to chill the [ __ ] out and just let technology do what it does. just let technology do what it does. just let technology do what it does. >> when these companies need to stop doom >> when these companies need to stop doom >> when these companies need to stop doom trolling. They need to stop doom trolling. They need to stop doom trolling. They need to stop doom trolling. Do you see that in your Times trolling. Do you see that in your Times trolling. Do you see that in your Times op-ed? Look, this is all downstream. op-ed? Look, this is all downstream. op-ed? Look, this is all downstream. This is all downstream of the fact that This is all downstream of the fact that This is all downstream of the fact that these AI CEOs have been scaring the these AI CEOs have been scaring the these AI CEOs have been scaring the daylights out of the public with respect daylights out of the public with respect daylights out of the public with respect to AI. It was totally unnecessary. And to AI. It was totally unnecessary. And to AI. It was totally unnecessary. And by by the way, J Kai, I just want to say by by the way, J Kai, I just want to say by by the way, J Kai, I just want to say one other thing which is I am not happy one other thing which is I am not happy one other thing which is I am not happy about this result. I'm not happy about about this result. I'm not happy about about this result. I'm not happy about the fact that Anthropic is in this the fact that Anthropic is in this the fact that Anthropic is in this predicament. Why? Cuz I don't like the predicament. Why? Cuz I don't like the predicament. Why? Cuz I don't like the precedent. You know, I hope this does precedent. You know, I hope this does precedent. You know, I hope this does not become presidential. I don't want not become presidential. I don't want not become presidential. I don't want policy being made out of these types of policy being made out of these types of policy being made out of these types of emergencies. I trust it won't be. I hope emergencies. I trust it won't be. I hope emergencies. I trust it won't be. I hope this won't become the basis for policy. this won't become the basis for policy. this won't become the basis for policy. I hope it's a one-off. You think they I hope it's a one-off. You think they I hope it's a one-off. You think they should regulate themselves? should regulate themselves? should regulate themselves? As I've been saying. If you go back to As I've been saying. If you go back to As I've been saying. If you go back to April, here's the thing that's really April, here's the thing that's really April, here's the thing that's really crazy, okay? I just saw that Dario did crazy, okay? I just saw that Dario did crazy, okay? I just saw that Dario did this interview with Bloomberg, you know, this interview with Bloomberg, you know, this interview with Bloomberg, you know, Emily Chang and he said that by not Emily Chang and he said that by not Emily Chang and he said that by not releasing Mythos in April, the company releasing Mythos in April, the company releasing Mythos in April, the company suffered massively commercially. You suffered massively commercially. You suffered massively commercially. You know, he's acting like he's doing this know, he's acting like he's doing this know, he's acting like he's doing this great and noble thing for humanity, this great and noble thing for humanity, this great and noble thing for humanity, this great sacrifice. The truth is that if he great sacrifice. The truth is that if he great sacrifice. The truth is that if he had released Mythos with no guardrails had released Mythos with no guardrails had released Mythos with no guardrails in April, he would have exposed the in April, he would have exposed the in April, he would have exposed the company to massive legal exposure company to massive legal exposure company to massive legal exposure because thousands of companies would because thousands of companies would because thousands of companies would have gotten hacked and it would have have gotten hacked and it would have have gotten hacked and it would have been very easy to say that was a been very easy to say that was a been very easy to say that was a foreseeable consequence of releasing foreseeable consequence of releasing foreseeable consequence of releasing Mythos with no safety features, no Mythos with no safety features, no Mythos with no safety features, no guardrails. Look, right now Meta is guardrails. Look, right now Meta is guardrails. Look, right now Meta is being sued. They just lost a being sued. They just lost a being sued. They just lost a multi-million dollar verdict because a multi-million dollar verdict because a multi-million dollar verdict because a user accused them of body shaming. Meta user accused them of body shaming. Meta user accused them of body shaming. Meta and Google are both being deluged with and Google are both being deluged with and Google are both being deluged with product liability lawsuits right now. product liability lawsuits right now. product liability lawsuits right now. So, you're telling me that it was this So, you're telling me that it was this So, you're telling me that it was this great sacrifice for humanity that you great sacrifice for humanity that you great sacrifice for humanity that you didn't release Mythos when it was didn't release Mythos when it was didn't release Mythos when it was patently unsafe back in April? of course patently unsafe back in April? of course patently unsafe back in April? of course you had to include the safety features. you had to include the safety features. you had to include the safety features. Of course you would have exposed Of course you would have exposed Of course you would have exposed yourself to liability that could have yourself to liability that could have yourself to liability that could have put you out of business. That is just put you out of business. That is just put you out of business. That is just good business practice. That is good business practice. That is good business practice. That is corporate responsibility. You shouldn't corporate responsibility. You shouldn't corporate responsibility. You shouldn't deserve this giant pat on the back, and deserve this giant pat on the back, and deserve this giant pat on the back, and you didn't need to go to Washington, you didn't need to go to Washington, you didn't need to go to Washington, freak everybody out like this. I mean, freak everybody out like this. I mean, freak everybody out like this. I mean, you should have quietly done it. You you should have quietly done it. You you should have quietly done it. You should have quietly should have quietly should have quietly >> it is. It's what it is. >> it is. It's what it is. >> it is. It's what it is. >> You could have quietly gone to the NSA >> You could have quietly gone to the NSA >> You could have quietly gone to the NSA and said, "Listen, and said, "Listen, and said, "Listen, >> They're going to get kneecapped by the >> They're going to get kneecapped by the >> They're going to get kneecapped by the hyperscalers. It's a clear lane for them hyperscalers. It's a clear lane for them hyperscalers. It's a clear lane for them to say, "Let us be your trusted to say, "Let us be your trusted to say, "Let us be your trusted partners." And by the way, the partners." And by the way, the partners." And by the way, the hyperscalers, if you look at their hyperscalers, if you look at their hyperscalers, if you look at their balance sheets, the hyperscalers are out balance sheets, the hyperscalers are out balance sheets, the hyperscalers are out over their ski tips. They have trillions over their ski tips. They have trillions over their ski tips. They have trillions of dollars of on-balance sheet and of dollars of on-balance sheet and of dollars of on-balance sheet and off-balance sheet exposure to AI. off-balance sheet exposure to AI. off-balance sheet exposure to AI. The best thing that they can do to The best thing that they can do to The best thing that they can do to underwrite all of that money is to underwrite all of that money is to underwrite all of that money is to kneecap the frontier labs and play kneecap the frontier labs and play kneecap the frontier labs and play gatekeeper. Charge a toll, take a tax. gatekeeper. Charge a toll, take a tax. gatekeeper. Charge a toll, take a tax. It is It is It is business 101. business 101. business 101. >> They're going to say that they're the >> They're going to say that they're the >> They're going to say that they're the adult supervision. adult supervision. adult supervision. >> the way, it's regulatory capture 101. >> the way, it's regulatory capture 101. >> the way, it's regulatory capture 101. Yes. That's not regulatory capture. Yes. That's not regulatory capture. Yes. That's not regulatory capture. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. >> Well, they're creating a market >> Well, they're creating a market >> Well, they're creating a market opportunity for themselves because these opportunity for themselves because these opportunity for themselves because these companies have doom trolled their way companies have doom trolled their way companies have doom trolled their way into it. They into it. They into it. They >> They've doom trolled their way into it. >> They've doom trolled their way into it. >> They've doom trolled their way into it. >> They want the public master to trust >> They want the public master to trust >> They want the public master to trust them. them. them. >> That's what I'm saying. Regulatory >> That's what I'm saying. Regulatory >> That's what I'm saying. Regulatory capture is when you surreptitiously in capture is when you surreptitiously in capture is when you surreptitiously in the dead of night swoop into Washington the dead of night swoop into Washington the dead of night swoop into Washington and introduce some bill as a Christmas and introduce some bill as a Christmas and introduce some bill as a Christmas tree ornament in a Christmas tree bill. tree ornament in a Christmas tree bill. tree ornament in a Christmas tree bill. This is literally the exact opposite This is literally the exact opposite This is literally the exact opposite with the same outcome. I I agree with with the same outcome. I I agree with with the same outcome. I I agree with you, Jason. Which is you bumble [ __ ] you, Jason. Which is you bumble [ __ ] you, Jason. Which is you bumble [ __ ] your way into getting kneecapped by your way into getting kneecapped by your way into getting kneecapped by everybody around you. everybody around you. everybody around you. >> No, no, it's I guess that analogy would >> No, no, it's I guess that analogy would >> No, no, it's I guess that analogy would be they literally walked themselves into be they literally walked themselves into be they literally walked themselves into prison and handed the hyperscalers the prison and handed the hyperscalers the prison and handed the hyperscalers the keys and were like, "Please lock us up." keys and were like, "Please lock us up." keys and were like, "Please lock us up." >> They closed They closed the door. >> They closed They closed the door. >> They closed They closed the door. They're like, They're like, They're like, >> the door themselves. They locked it. >> the door themselves. They locked it. >> the door themselves. They locked it. They threw the keys out the window. Yes, They threw the keys out the window. Yes, They threw the keys out the window. Yes, we're locking ourselves up. we're locking ourselves up. we're locking ourselves up. >> All right, the Iran war might be ending >> All right, the Iran war might be ending >> All right, the Iran war might be ending after 110 days. President Trump has after 110 days. President Trump has after 110 days. President Trump has announced for the 37th time that the war announced for the 37th time that the war announced for the 37th time that the war has ended. has ended. has ended. And that the initial agreement on June And that the initial agreement on June And that the initial agreement on June 15th 15th 15th will be codified. A lot of details here, will be codified. A lot of details here, will be codified. A lot of details here, a lot of unknowns. Conflict began a lot of unknowns. Conflict began a lot of unknowns. Conflict began obviously [clears throat] on February obviously [clears throat] on February obviously [clears throat] on February 28th. Formal signing happens Friday, 28th. Formal signing happens Friday, 28th. Formal signing happens Friday, June 19th in Geneva. Deal was mediated June 19th in Geneva. Deal was mediated June 19th in Geneva. Deal was mediated by Pakistan. by Pakistan. by Pakistan. Extends the ceasefire for 60 days. Extends the ceasefire for 60 days. Extends the ceasefire for 60 days. Includes a Lebanon ceasefire. US gets Includes a Lebanon ceasefire. US gets Includes a Lebanon ceasefire. US gets the Strait of Hormuz reopening, which it the Strait of Hormuz reopening, which it the Strait of Hormuz reopening, which it was open before the war, obviously. Iran was open before the war, obviously. Iran was open before the war, obviously. Iran commits to not developing nuclear commits to not developing nuclear commits to not developing nuclear weapons. Iran agrees to destroy its weapons. Iran agrees to destroy its weapons. Iran agrees to destroy its stockpile of enriched uranium under IAEA stockpile of enriched uranium under IAEA stockpile of enriched uranium under IAEA supervision and that they will freeze supervision and that they will freeze supervision and that they will freeze its nuclear program at current levels its nuclear program at current levels its nuclear program at current levels for 60 days. Iran gets all sanctions for 60 days. Iran gets all sanctions for 60 days. Iran gets all sanctions lifted. lifted. lifted. And $300 billion And $300 billion And $300 billion in reconstruction. So, we spent 100, 200 in reconstruction. So, we spent 100, 200 in reconstruction. So, we spent 100, 200 billion dollars blowing the place up and billion dollars blowing the place up and billion dollars blowing the place up and we and our partners in the Gulf are we and our partners in the Gulf are we and our partners in the Gulf are going to spend 300 billion. going to spend 300 billion. going to spend 300 billion. >> No, we're not we're not on the hook for >> No, we're not we're not on the hook for >> No, we're not we're not on the hook for a dime, J.K. a dime, J.K. a dime, J.K. >> Okay, I was just saying there's some >> Okay, I was just saying there's some >> Okay, I was just saying there's some people in the Gulf who are going to be people in the Gulf who are going to be people in the Gulf who are going to be involved in this and we'll get into it. involved in this and we'll get into it. involved in this and we'll get into it. Access to Iran's going to get access to Access to Iran's going to get access to Access to Iran's going to get access to their frozen assets. their frozen assets. their frozen assets. And uh the US is going to remove its And uh the US is going to remove its And uh the US is going to remove its forces from the region after the final forces from the region after the final forces from the region after the final deal. deal. deal. A lot of stuff not defined yet will be A lot of stuff not defined yet will be A lot of stuff not defined yet will be deferred uh like Israel's sign-on to deferred uh like Israel's sign-on to deferred uh like Israel's sign-on to this deal. this deal. this deal. And uh bunch of spicy comments happening And uh bunch of spicy comments happening And uh bunch of spicy comments happening there. there. there. And Iran's nuclear enrichment going And Iran's nuclear enrichment going And Iran's nuclear enrichment going forward, that's not resolved. Iran's forward, that's not resolved. Iran's forward, that's not resolved. Iran's ballistic missile program, that's kind ballistic missile program, that's kind ballistic missile program, that's kind of important and that's also not yet of important and that's also not yet of important and that's also not yet resolved. I'll stop here. Obviously, resolved. I'll stop here. Obviously, resolved. I'll stop here. Obviously, there's a lot in play. Many people said there's a lot in play. Many people said there's a lot in play. Many people said the reason to vote for Trump was because the reason to vote for Trump was because the reason to vote for Trump was because he would never start wars. Started a he would never start wars. Started a he would never start wars. Started a couple. couple. couple. What's your take on where we're at What's your take on where we're at What's your take on where we're at today, Sachs? today, Sachs? today, Sachs? >> Well, I think this deal is a tremendous >> Well, I think this deal is a tremendous >> Well, I think this deal is a tremendous achievement for the president. I think achievement for the president. I think achievement for the president. I think that it was very difficult to get. I that it was very difficult to get. I that it was very difficult to get. I think the Iranians are not easy to think the Iranians are not easy to think the Iranians are not easy to negotiate with. negotiate with. negotiate with. >> You'd think. >> You'd think. >> You'd think. >> Let's review this deal. Number one, it >> Let's review this deal. Number one, it >> Let's review this deal. Number one, it reopens the Strait of Hormuz. That means reopens the Strait of Hormuz. That means reopens the Strait of Hormuz. That means all the oil will flow and all the other all the oil will flow and all the other all the oil will flow and all the other vital materials that are necessary for vital materials that are necessary for vital materials that are necessary for the global economy. So, that's number the global economy. So, that's number the global economy. So, that's number one. Number two, we have a commitment one. Number two, we have a commitment one. Number two, we have a commitment from them not to pursue a nuclear from them not to pursue a nuclear from them not to pursue a nuclear program and to collect all of the program and to collect all of the program and to collect all of the nuclear materials. nuclear materials. nuclear materials. Number three, there's a ceasefire of the Number three, there's a ceasefire of the Number three, there's a ceasefire of the war on all the different fronts. Four, war on all the different fronts. Four, war on all the different fronts. Four, this will not cost us a dime. There is a this will not cost us a dime. There is a this will not cost us a dime. There is a reconstruction fund, but we're not reconstruction fund, but we're not reconstruction fund, but we're not paying for it. I don't see why that's a paying for it. I don't see why that's a paying for it. I don't see why that's a problem for us. problem for us. problem for us. >> Who's paying for it? >> Who's paying for it? >> Who's paying for it? >> I guess it's something that the Iranians >> I guess it's something that the Iranians >> I guess it's something that the Iranians will do in combination with the Gulf will do in combination with the Gulf will do in combination with the Gulf states, but it's not the US is not on states, but it's not the US is not on states, but it's not the US is not on the hook for that money. We're not the hook for that money. We're not the hook for that money. We're not paying a dime. And then lastly, this paying a dime. And then lastly, this paying a dime. And then lastly, this could lead to a rapprochement Iran, could lead to a rapprochement Iran, could lead to a rapprochement Iran, which I think could be a good thing cuz which I think could be a good thing cuz which I think could be a good thing cuz I don't think we need to be at war with I don't think we need to be at war with I don't think we need to be at war with that country forever. that country forever. that country forever. And look, what is the alternative to And look, what is the alternative to And look, what is the alternative to this deal? I'm seeing a lot of people this deal? I'm seeing a lot of people this deal? I'm seeing a lot of people It's easy to take potshots and criticize It's easy to take potshots and criticize It's easy to take potshots and criticize the deal, but what is the alternative to the deal, but what is the alternative to the deal, but what is the alternative to this? I'm hearing neocons who basically this? I'm hearing neocons who basically this? I'm hearing neocons who basically want us to put ground troops in want us to put ground troops in want us to put ground troops in and try and effectuate a regime change and try and effectuate a regime change and try and effectuate a regime change and Iran. This is what I'm hearing. I and Iran. This is what I'm hearing. I and Iran. This is what I'm hearing. I heard John Podhoretz say this. I'm heard John Podhoretz say this. I'm heard John Podhoretz say this. I'm hearing other neocons say this. I mean, hearing other neocons say this. I mean, hearing other neocons say this. I mean, are you serious? Are we really going to are you serious? Are we really going to are you serious? Are we really going to escalate this war by putting ground escalate this war by putting ground escalate this war by putting ground troops in? Who exactly do you want to go troops in? Who exactly do you want to go troops in? Who exactly do you want to go fight? What I heard John Podhoretz say fight? What I heard John Podhoretz say fight? What I heard John Podhoretz say is we have a volunteer army, so they is we have a volunteer army, so they is we have a volunteer army, so they signed up for this. No, they didn't. signed up for this. No, they didn't. signed up for this. No, they didn't. They signed up to protect America not to They signed up to protect America not to They signed up to protect America not to go charging into Iran, which is go charging into Iran, which is go charging into Iran, which is basically a mountain fortress. I've basically a mountain fortress. I've basically a mountain fortress. I've heard estimates it would take over a heard estimates it would take over a heard estimates it would take over a million troops and even then it might million troops and even then it might million troops and even then it might not be successful. We sent half a not be successful. We sent half a not be successful. We sent half a million to Iraq and Iran is three times million to Iraq and Iran is three times million to Iraq and Iran is three times bigger as a country and it's a mountain bigger as a country and it's a mountain bigger as a country and it's a mountain fortress. So, that would be a suicide fortress. So, that would be a suicide fortress. So, that would be a suicide mission. That would be insane. Nobody mission. That would be insane. Nobody mission. That would be insane. Nobody wants that. I'm not sending my kids to wants that. I'm not sending my kids to wants that. I'm not sending my kids to fight that war. You don't want to send fight that war. You don't want to send fight that war. You don't want to send your kids to fight that war. If John your kids to fight that war. If John your kids to fight that war. If John Podhoretz and the neocons want to do it, Podhoretz and the neocons want to do it, Podhoretz and the neocons want to do it, let them send their kids and their let them send their kids and their let them send their kids and their family. family. family. If Reza Pahlavi wants to go to Beverly If Reza Pahlavi wants to go to Beverly If Reza Pahlavi wants to go to Beverly Hills and muster an army from his legion Hills and muster an army from his legion Hills and muster an army from his legion of supporters, let him try and do that. of supporters, let him try and do that. of supporters, let him try and do that. I don't think they will sign up for it. I don't think they will sign up for it. I don't think they will sign up for it. I think they're living too well in I think they're living too well in I think they're living too well in Beverly Hills. Okay? Nobody wants to Beverly Hills. Okay? Nobody wants to Beverly Hills. Okay? Nobody wants to fight that war. That is the alternative fight that war. That is the alternative fight that war. That is the alternative here. Okay? So, if we're not going to here. Okay? So, if we're not going to here. Okay? So, if we're not going to send in ground troops, send in ground troops, send in ground troops, and we're not going to continue the and we're not going to continue the and we're not going to continue the bombing cuz what's the point? We already bombing cuz what's the point? We already bombing cuz what's the point? We already hit every We already flattened every hit every We already flattened every hit every We already flattened every military target above ground in that military target above ground in that military target above ground in that country. So, what is the point of country. So, what is the point of country. So, what is the point of continuing bombing continuing bombing continuing bombing >> Sax, is the permit a deal? >> Sax, is the permit a deal? >> Sax, is the permit a deal? >> Then we might as well hold on. If my >> Then we might as well hold on. If my >> Then we might as well hold on. If my point is if we're not going to send in point is if we're not going to send in point is if we're not going to send in ground troops cuz it makes no sense, ground troops cuz it makes no sense, ground troops cuz it makes no sense, we're not going to continue the bombing we're not going to continue the bombing we're not going to continue the bombing cuz it makes no sense, then we might as cuz it makes no sense, then we might as cuz it makes no sense, then we might as well try what's behind door number well try what's behind door number well try what's behind door number three, which is a deal here three, which is a deal here three, which is a deal here that will try to create a peace. that will try to create a peace. that will try to create a peace. Remember, we're only at Remember, we're only at Remember, we're only at of this, but let's give peace a chance of this, but let's give peace a chance of this, but let's give peace a chance here. I don't understand these people here. I don't understand these people here. I don't understand these people who just want this war to go on forever. who just want this war to go on forever. who just want this war to go on forever. Haven't we tried that before? The Haven't we tried that before? The Haven't we tried that before? The forever wars of Iraq and Afghanistan. forever wars of Iraq and Afghanistan. forever wars of Iraq and Afghanistan. We're really going to sign up for We're really going to sign up for We're really going to sign up for another one of those? I don't think so. another one of those? I don't think so. another one of those? I don't think so. So, look, it's easy for people to take So, look, it's easy for people to take So, look, it's easy for people to take pot shots at the president here, but I pot shots at the president here, but I pot shots at the president here, but I think this is by far the best of all the think this is by far the best of all the think this is by far the best of all the alternatives. alternatives. alternatives. >> Sax, the long-term issue has been the >> Sax, the long-term issue has been the >> Sax, the long-term issue has been the enrichment of uranium to the point that enrichment of uranium to the point that enrichment of uranium to the point that it can be used as a nuclear weapon. it can be used as a nuclear weapon. it can be used as a nuclear weapon. Is Is it part of the deal that all that Is Is it part of the deal that all that Is Is it part of the deal that all that enriched uranium that we do know there's enriched uranium that we do know there's enriched uranium that we do know there's a stockpile of gets removed from the a stockpile of gets removed from the a stockpile of gets removed from the country? Cuz if that goes, country? Cuz if that goes, country? Cuz if that goes, I personally feel very good about let I personally feel very good about let I personally feel very good about let the citizens deal with what they have to the citizens deal with what they have to the citizens deal with what they have to deal with. deal with. deal with. >> That's what they've said. This is This >> That's what they've said. This is This >> That's what they've said. This is This is part of the MOU. They will not only is part of the MOU. They will not only is part of the MOU. They will not only agree not to pursue a nuclear weapon, agree not to pursue a nuclear weapon, agree not to pursue a nuclear weapon, they will give up their nuclear they will give up their nuclear they will give up their nuclear material. This enriched material. This enriched material. This enriched >> a big deal. If all that enriched uranium >> a big deal. If all that enriched uranium >> a big deal. If all that enriched uranium comes out of the country, I think it's a comes out of the country, I think it's a comes out of the country, I think it's a very big deal because even if they very big deal because even if they very big deal because even if they restarted the program, even if they restarted the program, even if they restarted the program, even if they resourced the equipment, resourced the equipment, resourced the equipment, rebuilt the intelligence to do it, etc., rebuilt the intelligence to do it, etc., rebuilt the intelligence to do it, etc., etc., it's going to take years to a etc., it's going to take years to a etc., it's going to take years to a decade to 15 years plus to build enough decade to 15 years plus to build enough decade to 15 years plus to build enough enriched uranium to build a nuclear enriched uranium to build a nuclear enriched uranium to build a nuclear weapon. weapon. weapon. That would kind of be the natural That would kind of be the natural That would kind of be the natural setback, if you will, that provides some setback, if you will, that provides some setback, if you will, that provides some defense for the conditions that we defense for the conditions that we defense for the conditions that we really care about. I didn't realize that really care about. I didn't realize that really care about. I didn't realize that was in the deal. I thought the deal was was in the deal. I thought the deal was was in the deal. I thought the deal was just that they would make a quote just that they would make a quote just that they would make a quote commitment to stopping a program, but if commitment to stopping a program, but if commitment to stopping a program, but if all that enriched uranium's coming out, all that enriched uranium's coming out, all that enriched uranium's coming out, that's a really big deal. Well, they that's a really big deal. Well, they that's a really big deal. Well, they still have to define it. You know, still have to define it. You know, still have to define it. You know, again, this is at the MOU stage. This is again, this is at the MOU stage. This is again, this is at the MOU stage. This is at the level of high-level principles. at the level of high-level principles. at the level of high-level principles. They have to define exactly how that They have to define exactly how that They have to define exactly how that program's going to work, but what they program's going to work, but what they program's going to work, but what they get in exchange is relief from the get in exchange is relief from the get in exchange is relief from the sanctions. And they get a a more sanctions. And they get a a more sanctions. And they get a a more normalized relationship with the US. normalized relationship with the US. normalized relationship with the US. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. >> There's an incentive there for them. You >> There's an incentive there for them. You >> There's an incentive there for them. You know, if they're willing to basically know, if they're willing to basically know, if they're willing to basically give that up give that up give that up >> any take here or you want to check in or >> any take here or you want to check in or >> any take here or you want to check in or not? not? not? >> I think the market's going to the moon. >> I think the market's going to the moon. >> I think the market's going to the moon. >> The market's [laughter] going to the >> The market's [laughter] going to the >> The market's [laughter] going to the >> Uh I'll just add, I'm glad if this >> Uh I'll just add, I'm glad if this >> Uh I'll just add, I'm glad if this uh gets consummated and it was a huge uh gets consummated and it was a huge uh gets consummated and it was a huge blunder for Trump to do this. blunder for Trump to do this. blunder for Trump to do this. And obviously he's trying to get out of And obviously he's trying to get out of And obviously he's trying to get out of it, shouldn't have ever done it, but it, shouldn't have ever done it, but it, shouldn't have ever done it, but here we are and I hope it resolves and I here we are and I hope it resolves and I here we are and I hope it resolves and I hope the people of Iran are free hope the people of Iran are free hope the people of Iran are free eventually. eventually. eventually. >> worth it, J Cal, to have gone through >> worth it, J Cal, to have gone through >> worth it, J Cal, to have gone through what we went through over the last what we went through over the last what we went through over the last couple of months if all of the Iranian couple of months if all of the Iranian couple of months if all of the Iranian enriched uranium is gone, their missiles enriched uranium is gone, their missiles enriched uranium is gone, their missiles are are depleted and they have no are are depleted and they have no are are depleted and they have no capacity to enrich uranium again? capacity to enrich uranium again? capacity to enrich uranium again? >> I mean >> I mean >> I mean just just looking at like if you just just just looking at like if you just just just looking at like if you just put this all together summarily and put this all together summarily and put this all together summarily and said, "Hey, like there was this big war said, "Hey, like there was this big war said, "Hey, like there was this big war and the stuff that happened and all the and the stuff that happened and all the and the stuff that happened and all the It's a great question. And the loss of It's a great question. And the loss of It's a great question. And the loss of life and and like suddenly this this life and and like suddenly this this life and and like suddenly this this real risk of nuclear real risk of nuclear real risk of nuclear >> As I've said from the beginning of this, >> As I've said from the beginning of this, >> As I've said from the beginning of this, we don't have complete information. So, we don't have complete information. So, we don't have complete information. So, you know, four venture capitalists, you know, four venture capitalists, you know, four venture capitalists, capital allocators, entrepreneurs can capital allocators, entrepreneurs can capital allocators, entrepreneurs can speculate all they want, but we don't speculate all they want, but we don't speculate all they want, but we don't see what Trump sees, right? So, I'll see what Trump sees, right? So, I'll see what Trump sees, right? So, I'll I'll I'll You have to be humble enough I'll I'll You have to be humble enough I'll I'll You have to be humble enough to know we don't know what information to know we don't know what information to know we don't know what information he had in all of this, but the trimming he had in all of this, but the trimming he had in all of this, but the trimming of the grass, the the hedging, you know, of the grass, the the hedging, you know, of the grass, the the hedging, you know, of the garden approach that Israel had of the garden approach that Israel had of the garden approach that Israel had been taking all this time, that was the been taking all this time, that was the been taking all this time, that was the right approach. Isolating dictators, right approach. Isolating dictators, right approach. Isolating dictators, waiting them out is always the better waiting them out is always the better waiting them out is always the better approach than starting full-scale wars approach than starting full-scale wars approach than starting full-scale wars with them because you don't know what with them because you don't know what with them because you don't know what could happen in an escalation. So, could happen in an escalation. So, could happen in an escalation. So, simply not worth the risk. Much better simply not worth the risk. Much better simply not worth the risk. Much better to just send the air troops in and clean to just send the air troops in and clean to just send the air troops in and clean it up. And and we did not need to, you it up. And and we did not need to, you it up. And and we did not need to, you know, go collect this know, go collect this know, go collect this uh you know, material obviously cuz we uh you know, material obviously cuz we uh you know, material obviously cuz we have these bunker busters and we can have these bunker busters and we can have these bunker busters and we can just slam it every X number of months just slam it every X number of months just slam it every X number of months and that would have been a much better and that would have been a much better and that would have been a much better approach. Just like we've contained approach. Just like we've contained approach. Just like we've contained North Korea for all this time and you North Korea for all this time and you North Korea for all this time and you know, we contain other dictators with know, we contain other dictators with know, we contain other dictators with weapons. weapons. weapons. >> North Korea hasn't had >> North Korea hasn't had >> North Korea hasn't had >> What are you talking about? North Korea >> What are you talking about? North Korea >> What are you talking about? North Korea has a nuke. has a nuke. has a nuke. >> No, no, but we've contained them. And we >> No, no, but we've contained them. And we >> No, no, but we've contained them. And we actually did have this discussion with actually did have this discussion with actually did have this discussion with Graham Allison about, "Hey, Graham Allison about, "Hey, Graham Allison about, "Hey, why didn't we contain that one when we why didn't we contain that one when we why didn't we contain that one when we had a chance?" had a chance?" had a chance?" That was a mistake by other presidencies That was a mistake by other presidencies That was a mistake by other presidencies to to allow them to get this far. And to to allow them to get this far. And to to allow them to get this far. And then once they have it, it's really then once they have it, it's really then once they have it, it's really hard. And in this case, it was working hard. And in this case, it was working hard. And in this case, it was working very well. Every 18 months, we bombed very well. Every 18 months, we bombed very well. Every 18 months, we bombed the facilities. It was fine. We didn't the facilities. It was fine. We didn't the facilities. It was fine. We didn't need to start a full-scale war. And need to start a full-scale war. And need to start a full-scale war. And we're probably going to just wind up we're probably going to just wind up we're probably going to just wind up where we were at the start of all this. where we were at the start of all this. where we were at the start of all this. But I hope that at some point the people But I hope that at some point the people But I hope that at some point the people of Iran are free. That that's my, you of Iran are free. That that's my, you of Iran are free. That that's my, you know, true hope. But people have to know, true hope. But people have to know, true hope. But people have to we we can't enforce democracy in the we we can't enforce democracy in the we we can't enforce democracy in the Middle East. We've learned that over and Middle East. We've learned that over and Middle East. We've learned that over and over and over again. The people have to over and over again. The people have to over and over again. The people have to take take take you know, they have to lead their own you know, they have to lead their own you know, they have to lead their own revolution. We can't facilitate it. revolution. We can't facilitate it. revolution. We can't facilitate it. All right. Listen, another amazing All right. Listen, another amazing All right. Listen, another amazing episode of the All-In podcast for episode of the All-In podcast for episode of the All-In podcast for the Sultan of Science, the Sultan of Science, the Sultan of Science, the dictator, the dictator, the dictator, and the Rain Man, yeah, David Sacks. I and the Rain Man, yeah, David Sacks. I and the Rain Man, yeah, David Sacks. I am the world's greatest moderator, and am the world's greatest moderator, and am the world's greatest moderator, and we'll see you next time. Bye-bye. Love we'll see you next time. Bye-bye. Love we'll see you next time. Bye-bye. Love you, boys. you, boys. you, boys. >> Bye-bye. >> Bye-bye. >> Bye-bye. >> [music] >> [music] >> [music] >> You let your winners ride. >> You let your winners ride. >> You let your winners ride. >> Rain Man, David Sacks. >> And I said, "We open sourced it to the >> And I said, "We open sourced it to the fans, and they've just gone crazy with fans, and they've just gone crazy with fans, and they've just gone crazy with [music] it." [music] it." [music] it." >> Love you, Sacks. >> Love you, Sacks. >> Love you, Sacks. >> Nice queen of quinoa. >> Let let your >> Let let your >> [music] >> [music] >> [music] >> winners ride. >> Besties are back. >> Besties are back. >> That is my new driveway >> That is my new driveway >> That is my new driveway >> [music] >> [music] >> [music] >> to your driveway, Sacks. >> Oh, man. >> Oh, man. >> [music] >> [music] >> [music] >> We should all just get a room and just >> We should all just get a room and just >> We should all just get a room and just have a one big huge orgy cuz they're all have a one big huge orgy cuz they're all have a one big huge orgy cuz they're all just useless. just useless. just useless. >> It's like this like [music] sexual >> It's like this like [music] sexual >> It's like this like [music] sexual tension that they just need to release tension that they just need to release tension that they just need to release somehow. somehow. somehow. >> Wet your feet, feet. >> Wet your feet, feet. >> Wet your feet, feet. >> Wet your feet. >> Wet your feet. >> Wet your feet. >> Wet? >> Wet? >> Wet? >> [laughter] >> [laughter] >> [laughter] >> We need to get merch. >> We need to get merch. >> We need to get merch. >> Besties are back.