Why You're Just As Afraid of Success As You Are of Failure | Galit Atlas

Key Takeaway

When you feel disproportionately anxious, ashamed, angry, or guilty, pause before reacting and ask: “Whose fear is this?” Then check whether you are actually in danger right now. Treat the activated part of you as a frightened child rather than a problem to suppress: name what it feels, offer it the reassurance you would give a good friend, and choose your next action from the steadier adult part of yourself.

Episode Overview

Dan Harris speaks with psychoanalyst Dr. Galit Atlas about how childhood survival strategies continue to shape adult relationships, reactions, and self-talk. Atlas explains six inner-child patterns and offers practical ways to recognize when old fears are driving present behavior. The conversation emphasizes self-compassion, acceptance, and using safe relationships to build new patterns.

Full Transcript

Transcript of Why You're Just As Afraid of Success As You Are of Failure | Galit Atlas from 10% Happier. Auto-generated from episode audio; may contain minor errors.

Hello, everybody, welcome to the 10 Percent Happier podcast, I'm your host, Dan Harris. I have been thinking a lot and writing a lot in my never ending next book project about what I was like as a child, super anxious, often deeply ashamed, and how that impacts who I am now. And I, as a consequence of doing all this thinking and writing, was very intrigued when my staff recommended that we bring on the show a woman named Dr. Galit Atlas, who is a psychoanalyst and the author of a new book called Come Closer, in which she argues that the key to your adult relationships is the child you once were.

So without further ado, let's say a big hearty 10 Percent Happier hello to Dr. Galit Atlas. Welcome to the show. Thank you very much. I'm happy to be here. I have to say that over and over on this show, concepts that I used to love to gleefully dismiss as bullshit, like going to your happy place or being in the present moment or whatever, I've had to come to admit are actually deeply useful. And here we are now with the inner child. So what say you to folks who might be tempted to write off the whole notion of the inner child as like therapy nonsense?

You know, from a psychoanalytic perspective, the inner child is not just a metaphor. It's a self state, something that developed early in life and lives inside us and comes back to life and to some degree drives our relationships, especially our intimate relationships and our love relationships. Yeah, it's not just a theory like the five year old version of me is grabbing the steering wheel and making me say stupid shit in ways that really impact my psychological and material well being right now. Yes, yes. The child you once were continues to live inside you.

And that child influence impacts the way you attach to others, the way you connect, the way you relate, and often without awareness, right? I like to say that it whispers in our ears. And the reason is that that child is trying to protect us. That child is trying to teach us how to survive, what works for them. And we keep, you know, hearing the voices saying, Hey, be careful, this person is too close to you. Hey, be careful. This happened in the past, remember? Don't do that again.

Have you ever heard the expression, if it's hysterical, it's historical? Yes. And I think that's a good expression, because it is historical, because our history is what shaped us. We learned from a very young age what works and what didn't work. And a lot of what we do in psychoanalysis is look at our defenses, early defenses, adaptations, emotional maneuvers, right? Everything that really helped us survive became our later pattern. You practice psychoanalysis, which is one school of therapy. There are many different schools of therapy. I've seen a whole cornucopia of therapists over the course of my 55 years.

And some of them really can be dismissive of mining the past. They're much more focused on like, how do we tweak your behavior right now? So what are those debates like when you engage? It's a good question, because there are, of course, a lot of debates about insight versus tools, you know. And some people say that it's either you need to have only insight or you need to have mostly tools. And I think that the way we think about it is the integration of insights and tools in psychoanalysis especially.

And especially we're talking about a concept that we call resistance. Resistance means that we all really want to get better. We really want to know ourselves. But we also are very afraid of knowing ourselves. And we want to know, but we are also afraid of knowing. And especially we want to change, but we are also very afraid of changing. We resist change. We're attached to the old versions of ourselves. So that's why having tools doesn't always work. And that's why having insights doesn't always work. Part of what we do in psychoanalytic treatment is really look at the gaps between what we want and what we are, I'll call it, able to tolerate between what we want to do, our goals.

But what interferes with our ability to change anything? So these are, remember those commercials? You're probably younger than I am, but when I was a kid, there were these commercials where somebody would accidentally drop a chocolate bar into a jar of peanut butter and they would say, two great tastes that taste great together. And I think it was an advertisement for Reese's Peanut Butter Cups. And that's what you're saying is you can't do insight without, it doesn't make sense to do insight without tools or tools without insight.

Absolutely. Absolutely. It doesn't make sense. You need to find a way to integrate both. And part of what we do, I think in every therapy, and I can differentiate a little bit what psychoanalytic therapy is, is to really relive those patterns between therapist and patient. Some of the tools of psychoanalysis is what is really looking into dynamics that happen in the room. And I would say the psychoanalytic treatment on the surface looks very similar to any other therapy. You sit and talk to your therapist. But what's different is, let me call it the ear of the analyst.

The way we listen, the way we listen and what we listen to. So we listen to psychological defenses, to unconscious material, to survival strategies, and to early adaptations. And in Come Closer, I demonstrate this. I take you with me into the mind of the analyst, my mind, and I share with you what I think, how I listen, what feelings it brings up for me to listen to you, and how I work with those feelings that come up for me, and how change looks like. Psychoanalysis, am I right that that's the type of therapy where you're going several times a week?

It used to be. I think that right now, psychoanalysis really changed, and contemporary psychoanalysis adopted like a lot of other therapists, by the way. The Freudian language of unconscious, so you say someone is defensive, the culture uses a lot of the Freudian ideas. But psychoanalysis itself changed, and many people cannot come more than once or twice a week. So the psychoanalysis now is really much, much more about the training of the therapist than about the frame itself. Got it. Do you insist on doing it in person, or is it okay?

Can you do proper analysis on Zoom? Since COVID, I work also on Zoom, and like most of us, it's interesting. I liked it in person much more, but I do work remotely as well. Okay. Thank you for humoring me during that digression. Let's get back to the inner child. In your book, you lay out like six kind of archetypes of children, and I believe you argue that actually many of us will see ourselves in several of these. But can you walk us through the six types of inner child?

So in the book, I took this project of identifying six different children and the way those children live inside us, how they impact especially our relationships, but our life in general. I talk about the frightened child, which is the child who experiences fear, has parents who are scary or scared or both, and we can talk more about that. Then I talk about the melancholic child. That's the child who's preoccupied with loss, the child that later in life has difficulty with separations and endings and transitions. The ashamed child is the child that feels that they are bad, as opposed to, then we have the guilty child, who feels like they did something bad, that they are, that they're too much, that they're too intense or too needy or too aggressive.

And then we have the invisible child, who felt unknown as a child, and later in life masters the art of disappearing and makes that their superpower. And last, I have the chosen child, and the chosen child is the child that has a very close relationship with one parent, where they feel responsible for that parent and feel like loyal to them to a degree that they cannot choose themselves. Douglas Goldstein, CFP®, is the director of Profile Investment Services and the host of the Goldstein on Gelt radio show.

He is a licensed financial professional both in the U.S. and Israel. Securities offered through Portfolio Resources Group, Inc., Member FINRA, SIPC, MSRB, NFA, SIFMA. Accounts carried by National Financial Services LLC. Member NYSE & SIPC, a Fidelity Investments company. His book Building Wealth in Israel is available in bookstores, on the web, or can be ordered at www.profile-financial.com. Disclaimer. While it is believed to be current and accurate, divergence from the original is to be expected. The original podcast can be heard at https://sites.google.com.uk or live at http://sites.google.com.uk All information on this website is purely information and should not be used as the sole basis for making financial decisions.

The opinions rendered herein are those of the guests, and not necessarily those of Douglas Goldstein, Profile Investment Services, Ltd., or Israel National News. Readers should consult with a professional financial advisor before making any financial decisions. Please see the complete disclaimer at https://sites.google.com.au Also, I would like to remind you that you can get the book, Building Wealth in Israel, any time, anywhere, on the web, or just subscribe and hit the bell icon. The podcast can be heard at https://sites.google.com.uk or live at https://sites.google.com.uk out figuring out what our mix is.

We'll get to what we do about it in a moment. How can we do the self-analysis to get a sense of where we fit on these various spectrums? One of my goals in Come Closer was to write something that helps you, first of all, takes you into some emotional journey. These are stories. It's not instructions. I don't believe in instructions. I believe in emotional experiences. I take you with me into this emotional experience where you almost sit next to me on my chair and listen to someone's story.

In it, I give you those insights that will teach you a little bit about what we hear and how we think about it and how we talk about it and what happens when we talk about it. Part of what will help you, I think, is to really look into those characteristics of, okay, if I am a guilty child, what does that mean about how I function in the world? How does that look? For example, the guilty child chapter is the chapter of Marco, which is of course a pseudonym with the patient's permission.

Marco comes to therapy when his wife goes through medical procedures. He starts having panic attacks. You think, right? Naturally, okay, the man is afraid that his wife will die. Something will happen to her. As we listen to him slowly, we find the guilty child who lives inside him. He was born to a mother who lost her husband. His father died before he was born. He was very worried about his mother all his life. He was very afraid that she won't feel good, that she'll be sad.

So what he did, for example, when he wanted to go play with friends, he felt very sad and guilty to leave her alone. He says to me, she was lonely. So what he would do is that he would sneak out and lie to his mother and tell her that he's going to do his homework with his friends and hide a nice shirt in the garage. And so he developed these patterns of not being able to be fully himself, compensatory caretaking, taking care of his mother and making his needs something that he does secretly.

And we see how that started playing out in his life with his wife. And later on, I'm not going to ruin this for you, with me too. So I catch him and I ask myself, do I trust him? Do I not trust him? What comes up for me about trust? So I share with you, the reader, what comes up for me? How do I deal with it? How do I sit close to him? How do I help somebody that I'm not sure I trust reminds me of someone from my future?

And for interesting, I said from my future, from my past, but Freudian. And he reminds me of my past and I'm afraid of the future. And I'm sitting with all of that to help him unpack what's going on. What we see is his fear is not just a fear of losing his wife. His fear is that this is happening because of him, that this is happening because it's he caused it, which is some kind of an omnipotent fantasy that guilty children usually have. Because guilt can also be a defense against fear, right?

Or shame, in a sense that when you're a guilty child, we call it like a moral defense. We prefer to see ourselves as responsible for bad things and keeping the world and the people around us as good. That kind of gets me to my armchair theory about my own psychology, which is, and you tell me if this is bullshit, but just my sense is that what may have happened with me is that I was some mix of nature and nurture left me with a nervous system on a hair trigger.

Very anxious as a child, very prone to both anxiety and depression. And my sense is that I may have, and again, this is the armchair part of it, decided that it was easier to tell myself a story that I'm the problem. There's something fundamentally wrong with me than to look around at my caretakers and find fault in them because that would have been even scarier. Absolutely. This is exactly it, actually. This is the moral defense I'm talking about. There was a Scottish psychoanalyst named Ronald Furburn, and in 1952, he wrote one of my favorite sentences, quotes in psychoanalysis, and it is, it is better to be a sinner in a world ruled by God than to live in a world ruled by the devil.

What does that mean? It means exactly what you were saying, that a child would be too devastated to accept that their parents or the world they live in, again, by the way, I'm not here blaming parents. Childhood is a complicated, you know, time. Things happen, and things happen in every family. So it doesn't necessarily, it could be that your parents were not good enough, as Winnicott would call it, but it doesn't have to be that, right? But what we see that the child adapts to reality, that instead of thinking that the world is bad or dangerous or scary, instead, they blame themselves.

And becoming, as Furburn said, they become the sinner while maintaining the illusion that the world is fundamentally good and that they can, they can repair things by fixing themselves and their actions. And I think that's exactly what you're saying, right? Yeah, it is exactly what I'm saying. And it's a great setup for a lot of the traps that I've fallen into of like hyper optimization around trying to be the best meditator, the most fit human, the most successful anchorman, etc., etc. That seems like a great way to fall into all the traps that I've fallen into.

Yeah, yeah. It is really the child that takes on responsibility and become a little bit, we call it, omnipotent defenses, right? That you really believe as a child that you have so much power that everything happens because of you, right? You take on responsibility for what's wrong. But if you think about it, it also, it's a very helpful thing as a child because it has hope in it. The hope that, right? Imagining a self, a sense of control and safety. It's like it all depends on you.

And you feel more safe. Safety for a frightened child, which is what I would a million percent characterize myself as, it's all about safety. I mean, it's one of those words when people use safety that I've historically found kind of annoying, like a safe space at some liberal arts college where you can't say anything challenging. There's just no better word for it. I think that my pervasive sense of precarity, I'm using too many P's here, but like kind of persists till now. Yeah, yeah. Let's talk about the frightened child because I think what you're saying, in my mind, as I started investigating this, I realized that to some degree, we're all frightened children.

And again, on a continuum, some people felt more safe in their childhood than others. And part of it is also because the world is scary, right? And parents can be scary. Parents are big. Angry parents are very scary. So every child who experienced fear in their childhood, and for some of us, that was the way life was. And for some, it was anecdotal thing. So the frightened child learned from a young age that the people you love and the people you're dependent on can hurt you.

And that is the most extreme version of being frightened, that the caretaker, the caregiver of the frightened child, as I said before, is usually scary, or scared, or both. And it doesn't mean they're bad, by the way, but it could be traumatized and being scary and scared. But that means that the attachment figure, what we used to call attachment figures, is a secure base, right, in attachment theory, is both the source of security and the source of fear, which is very confusing. Douglas Goldstein, CFP®, is the director of Profile Investment Services and the host of the Goldstein on Gelt radio show.

He is a licensed financial professional both in the U.S. and Israel. Securities offered by National Financial Services LLC. Member NYSE & SIPC, a Fidelity Investments company. His book Building Wealth in Israel is available in bookstores, on the web, or can be ordered at www.profile-financial.com. All information on this website is purely information and is not intended to provide specific advice or recommendations, or to discourage any investment decisions. Please see the complete disclaimer at https://sites.google.com. Douglas Goldstein, CFP®, is the director of Profile Investment Services and the host of the Goldstein on Gelt radio show.

He is a licensed financial professional both in the U.S. and Israel. Securities offered through Portfolio Resources Group, Inc., Member FINRA, SIPC, MSRB, NFA, SIFMA. Accounts carried by National Financial Services LLC. Member NYSE & SIPC, a Fidelity Investments company. His book Building Wealth in Israel is available in bookstores, on the web, or can be ordered at www.profile-financial.com. Douglas Goldstein, CFP®, is the director of Profile Investment Services and the host of the Goldstein on Gelt radio show. He is a licensed financial professional both in the U.S. and Israel.

Securities offered through Portfolio Resources Group, Inc., Member FINRA, SIPC, MSRB, NFA, SIFMA. Accounts carried by National Financial Services LLC. Member NYSE & SIPC, a Fidelity Investments company. Douglas Goldstein, financial planner & investment advisor, interviewed Goldstein on Arutz Sheva Radio. If I look at infant research and we see those infants, especially those who are afraid of the parents, not necessarily the emotional inheritance piece, those are infants that in infant observation you see them running towards and away, and they are very afraid of ambivalence. What you see later in life is that these children become threatened by closeness but also upset by distance.

You see that it's a lose-lose. If you're away, you're upset. If you're close, you're threatened, often aroused by danger but overwhelmed by tenderness. What happens is that many of these people choose unavailable partners who don't overwhelm them with too much closeness. For those children, the therapeutic relationship and new relationship in their lives are the primary ways of change, the primary ways to heal. There's a lot of power to new relationships that provide a secure base and what I call a reliable witness. I want to emphasize the word reliable because we all have witnesses in our lives.

Even children have siblings and the other parent is a witness to one parent behavior and grandparent, but what we see is that many of children's witnesses are actually not reliable. I talk and come closer about those families when one parent functions as the active aggressor and the other is the passive participant. One is the instigator and the other takes charge or one lashes out and the other shuts down or dissociates. You see that the parents work as a system. Therefore, in situations like that, the child would not have a reliable witness and the therapist and new relationships become witnesses for that.

For the frightened child, for example, that is a very important piece. I'm thinking about the guilty child, for example, the work of the guilty child, the practical work. As guilty children, we tend to blame ourselves, right? So part of what we want to make sure is to recognize, first of all, to recognize that's true for all the children. We look at our behavior, we identify something and then we go to the origin of it. We ask ourselves, wait, Dan, why are you feeling so guilty? Why were you so anxious as a child?

You might even have felt survivor guilt, right? I don't know. I don't know your history enough, but I think in psychoanalytic treatment and in that perspective of Come Closer, what we do is identify the children inside us and identify where it all started. We give that child a seat at the table. We dialogue with that child inside of us. Let me pick up on that exactly because I believe in Come Closer, you are recommending that we start to enter into a dialogue with the child inside of us.

I'd be curious to know how does one even start that kind of dialogue? I think the first step is to tell your childhood story with the child as their narrator. So let's say that you're not the adult that looks from the outside and say his child is doing, he felt this and this and that. In therapy, I even try as a therapist to get really, really closer into where you were as a child and how was it for you and tell me the stories. I love, for example, to ask people about their first memory and to ask them what their first memory was and to take me with them into those very precious moments of that they remember from childhood.

So let me tell you something. I think that what we do, what we start saying is that we open a dialogue between different parts of ourselves. The child inside us holds a lot of emotional truth. It has a lot of wisdom, right? We want to hear that child's story, their subjective truth. And at the beginning, the first step in therapy at least is that the child and me are talking. I talk to the child in you. But I think outside of therapy, it's very interesting to think about the dialogue between the child and the adult because the adult in you offers care, offers understanding, offers agency.

The problem, I think, is that most of the times, the adult in us dismiss the children in us. They mess up our lives, right? So you just wanna shut it out, you know, and say like, be quiet, stop, stop. And often, we treat the children in us the way our parents treated them. We identify with our parents. So we treat the child. If your parents used to say, you're too dramatic, there would be a voice in you, that's identification, right? That says, Dan, you're too dramatic, stop.

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Is that at least a cousin to what you're describing here? Absolutely, absolutely. I think that part of what we do in psychoanalysis and in psychoanalytic treatment in general is to sit with all the parts of ourselves and really talk to yourself in a specific, you know, people tend to talk to themselves worse than they talk to anyone else. And you know that, we all know that. We all talk to ourselves in ways that are worse than we talk to anyone else. So there are people in my practice who are really fantastic parents, and they talk to themselves in ways that they will never, ever, ever talk to their child.

You know, and so sometimes in those moments, you say, you know, let's sit with you as if you are your own parent. What would you say to yourself? And so I think that's exactly it. You know, it is a lot of the work, and the work of the melancholic child especially is the work of self-acceptance. Why, yeah, say more about why that's the work of the melancholic child. Because the melancholic child is preoccupied with loss. So from a young age, the melancholic child is anxious about separations and transitions, and we express the fear of loss through resistance to change.

We have difficulty in endings, and we're arguing with losses. We're arguing with separations. So there is something for the melancholic child is the child that insists, for example, stays in relationships too long, even after the relationship ended. And something about acceptance becomes the most important form of change. You know, again, we talked about binaries, and that's another binary, change and acceptance. It's like people come to therapy, and they ask themselves, do I want to change, or do I want to accept myself? And I think that for many people, acceptance is a form of change.

And it's sometimes the most important and formative form of change. People have asked me this so many times, and I have a little rap that I give, and I would be curious to see if you agree. When people say, hey, Dan, you're a Buddhist, it's all about accepting things as they are, but for me, I can't accept that I overeat or that I lose my temper or whatever it is, and you're asking me to accept that, and that's unacceptable. And I say, no, no, no, this is a stepwise progression.

You start with the acceptance, so you're no longer at war with reality, and then you can change. But it's a little bit of a paradox until you accept yourself as you are, then you can't change. I agree with you completely. I think that's exactly it, because those are not exactly contradictions. You can accept yourself, and then from that place help yourself to deal with whatever that is that you're dealing with. You do not have to, the fight is the problem. The minute you fight with yourself, the minute you start attacking yourself, start telling yourself that you're bad and everything you're doing is bad, immediately there is another part of you that will fight with that.

So what we are entering is a battle, right, between two parts of yourself. And so I do agree that there is something about the ability to, I think many people don't accept their insecurity, for example, you know, that a lot of people feel like it's a horrible thing. I have to be, I have to learn how to be secure. And I feel that the first step is really to sit with yourself and with your therapist and talk about the parts of you that you don't, that you refuse to accept.

And again, if I go back to Melancholic Child, in the Melancholic Child story, there is a woman who, as a child, used to collect garbage and put it in her closets. And she felt that she couldn't throw away anything. And as she comes to therapy, after she drops off her daughter at college, a lot of her fear of separation comes to the surface. And we start understanding that, in fact, she had a lot of unrecognized losses as a child. And she clings to everything. So she even chooses unhappiness instead of facing uncertainty that comes with change.

You know, she clings to everything. She stays too long. She's afraid to voice any disappointments, any needs, just to make sure that nothing changes, that she doesn't lose anything, you know? And it's interesting because I feel that unconsciously, any form of separation or ending, even unintentional ones like death or parental depression, like in that specific story in the book, activates a primary feeling of being left. And in fact, I write in the book that even the act of leaving, our own choice to end our relationships, to move, to change jobs, evokes the same fundamental sense of abandonment.

So in some ways, it doesn't matter who's doing the leaving. Unconsciously, we're always also feeling left. And I think that brings us back to, you know, being able to not argue with the reality all the time, but the ability to accept our losses too. And that means also the ability to accept our own, the losses that we will inevitably experience in life, and our own aging and our mortality and everything, all the limitations that life has. It makes total sense when you view it through the lens of evolution.

Like why is the fear of being left such a, I think you called it a primal or primordial fear. Why is that so common? Because, you know, abandonment on the Savannah was like, you're gonna get eaten by a tiger. And so it is such a primal thing for us. And I see it like, even with my parents, just the fact of their aging brings up feelings of abandonment for me. Exactly, like you're being left. You're being left when you leave someone. That's what we're talking about, right?

People who decide to break up with other people, deep inside and consciously feel that they are left. And, you know, it's interesting because I feel that that is something that repeats every end of a session. Did you ever experience that? That every end of a session is a small separation or abandonment? Or in some ways for some people, a rejection or an injury. You know, and there's something about endings in therapy too that we examine and not to talk about the end of a therapy, right, the process of termination, terminating a treatment that allows us to think about endings and to grieve together, which is so, right, when do we have, you know, this opportunity in life to actually grieve together, not in breakups usually, definitely not in death.

And it is an opportunity to mourn again everything we have lost already. And also to some degree, you know how it is that you always also mourn your future losses. You also, you know how you go to a funeral and you cry for the people that are about to die that you know will die and probably also ourselves, our own death and our own, so I think that's true. It's all very existential in those ways. Let me take us back to the practical for a second.

Not that you've strayed, but I'm curious in a moment, in a charged moment where it has become obvious that, and often we don't catch ourselves in these moments because we're too in the thing, but sometimes we do, or right afterwards, that our inner child has overreacted to a situation, although in the POV of it. inner child. It's not an overreaction at all. What tools do we have to catch ourselves when we've been hijacked by the ancient parts of our psyche? You know, I think that we start with recruiting a different part of ourselves.

In those moments, we can try to recruit the adults we are to regulate and comfort and soothe. It goes back to what you said before, but we have the grown-ups' voices in our head very often telling us to stop, relax, stop, you're exaggerating, you're dramatizing, you're too dramatic. I think that we really recruit a grown-up, a parent who is compassionate, a parent, internal parent, right? We're talking about internal parts, internal parents inside us who could regulate and soothe that part of us who feels very distressed and upset.

I believe you have a question that you advise people to ask themselves in charged moments. Whose fear is this? What I try to do with myself and with patients is to differentiate between past and present because I do understand that some of the feelings that we feel in the present moment belong to the past. When I ask you, I would probably ask you whose fear this is, where does it come from, what are you actually afraid of in the moment? You will be surprised that even in times of a lot of fear in the world, we could really go back to a feeling of safety in our body in the present moment.

That's what parents do for children, right? The world around them could be very intense and the parent's job is to take the child and say, you are safe right now with me. That's what we do for the younger part of us. We really address it and in sessions, we do it sometimes, right? Whose fear is it and are you in danger right now, this moment? Are you in danger? Do you feel safe in your body? I think you have another expression that might be worth talking about in this regard.

Follow the blame to find the shame. Follow the blame to find the shame is one of my go-to for the ashamed child. Shame is one of the most painful experiences and usually it's very, very shameful to talk about shame. When you carry a lot of shame, you usually become defensive because it's so painful to carry shame. What happens is that ashamed people tend to blame. When you see someone who always blames other people, the analyst in me will listen to it and say, oh, here there is shame underneath the blame.

It is a way of saying, it's not my fault, which is really interesting because in the book, I talk about negation. Negation is that when somebody doesn't ask you a question, but you come with a statement that says, I am not. I'm not angry. Somebody once told me that she was sitting with a married man. The first time they were sitting together, he said to her, I am not going to leave my wife. The analyst in me thought, okay, I guess he has a conflict there.

She said, I didn't ask him if he's going to leave his wife. It was the first time I was meeting this guy. This is an extreme example, but that is the way we listen to negation. One could bring a threatening material and deny it at the same time. For example, in the Chosen Child chapter, the mother and the daughter cannot separate. The daughter has a boyfriend, and she feels very ambivalent and a lot of conflict of loyalty. She can't leave her mother and marry this guy.

At some point, he proposes to her. She feels horrible for the mother. She feels like the mother is going to feel so lonely and so abandoned. Then she tells the mother they're going to get married. The mother says, oh, okay, that's great. Amazing. I have a yoga retreat exactly then, but never mind. I don't want to ruin your big moment. The way we hear it is like, I don't want to. I think that's what we're talking about, negation. I don't want to. I once got an email from somebody in a business context where the person said three times in the email, I'm not threatening you.

People have a lot of ways, and I think that's where psychoanalysis is. That's what we focus on, the things that people don't say or say in ways that we could hear the defense more than the actual feelings. I think the truth is that most of us walk in the world expressing defenses more than we express actual feelings. I'll give you an example for that. It's like I write in Come Closer about jealousy and envy. There is a big difference between the two. Jealousy is the feeling in both of them.

We want something that the other person has, but in jealousy, let's say I want to have a podcast. I look at you and I think, wow, Dan, your podcast is amazing. You're so good. I want to have a podcast too. I'm jealous that you have something that I don't have, and that is a motivation that will help me get what I want. In envy, I will not be able to feel that I want that because I would think that it's related against the shame that I cannot have that, so what would I do?

I will try to ruin it for you. That's envy. Envy has a destructive force in it. I will try to say, how do I do that? There are a few ways, a few tricks to listen to envy. If I think that your podcast is really good and I am envying you, I will use devaluation. I will say, this podcast is not so great. Actually, it's not good at all. I don't like it. I'll try to put you down in order to manage the feelings of envy I have because I don't want to feel envy.

For example, the flip side of that, which is also related to the ashamed child, is idealization. If I will idealize you, I will maybe try to be your best friend. Everything you have, if I can't become you, I will have you, or I'll do something to make you envious of me. All of that I'm saying because I think that what we are listening to, what we see usually, is not the actual feeling. Even with fear, we often don't see just the feeling. We see the defense against it.

We see what we do in order to not feel envious. I devalue you not because I'm envious of you. It's because I don't want to feel envious. With fear, it's the same. What you feel is not usually the fear. You feel the anger or the shutdown. That is true in many other ways. Just to get back to follow the blame to follow the shame, if I notice myself blaming other people for everything, maybe that's a moment to wake up and investigate? Yes. The problem with blame is that the person who blames often denies the fact that they blame.

What you have to follow is what people tell you about you. If people tell you, then you blame me all the time. That's the moment for people who want to have good relationships to stop and say, okay, maybe I'm experiencing shame. Maybe it's too difficult for me to tolerate responsibility to tolerate that I did something bad to someone else. It's too painful, maybe. I defend against it with saying, you did that to me. You listen to defensiveness and to blame. It's because of you that I did that.

We had a little pool party yesterday with some family friends. They were about, I would say, about 10 kids in the pool at the same time. They were all playing with these great toys, many of which we got from our sponsor today, Wayfair, including an awesome floating basketball net that my son has been dunking on on the regular. There's also, I don't know how to describe it. It's this floating thing with holes in it, and you can throw a football into it. My son has been working on a spiral in the pool with his friends.

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Visit Progressive.com, find a rate that works for you with the Name Your Price tool. Progressive Casualty Insurance Company and Affiliates, price and coverage match limited by state law. Let me ask one other real practical question here that I put in my notes. I'm not sure which child you're speaking to here, but you recommend that we practice expressing one need that we would normally redirect. That was the guilty child, because the guilty child is very worried about not taking care of other people as a way to manage, again, to defend against the guilt.

So the guilt to what I'm saying is that as guilty children, we can't just say to people, from now on, you need to take care of your own needs. As guilty children, we experience ourselves as if we could be a burden or harm people, and we're constantly worrying, right? And what we're saying here is that guilty children cannot always learn to set healthy boundaries and to balance the urge to be a caretaker. So what we're looking to do practically is to express your needs while staying connected to another person and not hide your needs.

I need to rest, and I care about you. So the work is learning that loving another person doesn't necessarily require you to abandon yourself or to erase yourself. That's an important thing that a lot of people overlook or learn the hard way. It strikes me there's perhaps some irony to the fact that we have not spoken much about the invisible child. We've overlooked the invisible child. Is there more to say about that child? And if you see yourself in that, what coping strategies would work in the present moment?

You know, I presented the invisible child to a group of therapists, and at the end of the workshop, every therapist raised their hand and said, I was the invisible child. So I think that it's a very, very typical, you know, therapists and caretakers in our child. And with the invisible child, I think we're really entering a conflict about being vulnerable and being seen. Because, you know, there is a very known Winnicott quote that says, it's a joy to be hidden, but a disaster not to be found.

And you think about hide and seek, right? Children hiding, and everybody's hiding, and then one child is just forgotten. This is the invisible child. The invisible child is the child who was to some degree forgotten, because it could be many reasons, right? It could be that the parents were preoccupied with something, that they have a sibling who was, you know, struggling, that there is chaos, or there are a lot of reasons for children to be invisible. And I think that what the main struggle for the invisible child is vulnerability.

And doing every, and the invisible child, for example, a practical advice for invisible children, invisible children rely on themselves. Invisible children try to not depend on other people. They have their... they perform independence. So it is important for invisible children to practice relying on others, or asking something, even if they think that they can do it better. You know, because invisible children will think, why would I ask you to make me coffee? I know how to make my coffee, and I make it better. Do you think understanding your own inner child inexorably leads to compassion for others?

I do think so. I think that there is something about being able to understand and accept yourself that allows you to see other people's vulnerability, accept other people's limitations. As long as you don't accept your own limitations, you won't be able to accept other people's limitations. And as I said before, I do think that sometimes we accept other people's limitations more than we accept ourselves, but especially in the way we talk to others, as opposed to the way we talk to ourselves. But there is something about really, it's all about vulnerability.

The child in us is always vulnerable. It's always, you know, in some ways, powerless. And we sit with that part of us, and we can accept others for who they are. We're gonna do our final segment in a moment, but before we get to that, is there anything related to Come Closer that you were hoping we would get to that we haven't gotten to? No, I think we covered most of the children that I bring with me. And the way that we could really listen to the child inside us.

Our new closing segment is called What's Good, where we ask the guest, what can you recommend that's good in your life that could be a TV show, song, movie, book, some little practice or habit you've developed? And then I'll give you one from my side. That's a good question. Because the first thing I thought when you said, what's good, I thought about, I'm funny that I'm talking about children, and I'm talking about my own children as the source of goodness in my life. What I recommend, one of the books I loved the most in the last year is Miranda July's All Fours.

And Miranda is joining me for the book launch of Come Closer. And together with Adam Phillips, the psychoanalyst. And so I really, part of what I loved about that book is that it's a book about life and death. It's a book about our emotional deadness and the parts of us that needs to be enlivened. I didn't read that book, although a lot of, many of my friends did and really loved it. I saw a movie Miranda wrote or directed or maybe wrote and directed, I think it was called Kajillionaire.

Does that sound familiar? I haven't seen that. But I feel like, you know, this is a book that a lot of women identify with, because it's a book that tells something. I mean, especially about our hormonal journey and life and death, we bring life, right? And we struggle with the end of fertility. And I think that that's a very powerful theme that is connected in my mind to all of us as people who are mortal. Well, my recommendation picks right up on that, and mortality. I've been reading a book called The Life of the Buddha.

The Life of the Buddha is written by a Buddhist monk named Bhikkhunyanamoli, but it's spelled N-A-N-A-M-O-L-I, I believe, if you want to Amazon the book, The Life of the Buddha. Anyway, it's a little dry, but I find it fascinating to just learn more about, I practice a lot of what the Buddha taught, but to learn more about what the guy was like. And it's really hard because the teachings of the Buddha weren't written down until hundreds of years after he died. And I think there was a lot of later insertions.

So it's really hard to kind of peer through the sands of time and figure out like what was this guy really like? But I enjoy that little mystery and trying to get a sense of this guy whose teachings have had such an impact on me, what was he really like? And there are times in reading the book where I'm not sure how much I would have liked him. So you found that he's not perfect. Yeah, exactly, exactly. Although he's repeatedly referred to as the perfected one, which is, I think, tricky in and of itself.

But anyway, I recommend the book, it's worth checking out. Glee, it's been such a pleasure to meet and learn from you. I really appreciate your time. Thank you. Thank you so much. Thank you very much for listening to the show. I really appreciate it. And if you enjoy listening to the show, if you get anything out of it, please do me a solid, leave a rating or a review. I know every podcast host asks for this, but it really makes a difference. It helps boost the visibility of this show.

We view this show as a mission to help people become nodes of sanity in an insane world. And so by taking a minute and giving the show a rating or a review, you're really helping us out and helping us achieve our mission. Thank you again. And now onto the credits. Thank you so much to everybody who worked so hard to make this show. 10% Happier is produced by Tara Anderson, Marissa Schneiderman, DJ Kashmir, David Hart, and Hayden Broom. Our recording and engineering is handled by the great folks over at Pod People and Nick Thorburn of the indie rock band Islands wrote our theme.

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