Why Your Anxiety Is Actually Working Exactly As It Should | Ethan Kross & Emma Seppälä

Key Takeaway

When experiencing strong emotions, try temporal distancing: ask yourself how you'll feel about this situation tomorrow or next week. This simple mental shift activates your understanding that emotions follow a predictable time course—they spike, stay elevated briefly, then gradually fade. Recognizing this pattern gives you hope that circumstances will improve, making it easier to sit with difficult feelings without being overwhelmed by them.

Episode Overview

Dan Harris sits down with psychologists Emma Seppälä and Ethan Kross to explore the top 10 neuroscience-backed strategies for emotion regulation. They discuss how to understand emotions as functional signals, practice self-compassion instead of self-criticism, feel emotions rather than suppress them, and leverage tools like breathing, perspective-shifting, and social support to manage emotional experiences more effectively.

Full Transcript

Transcript of Why Your Anxiety Is Actually Working Exactly As It Should | Ethan Kross & Emma Seppälä from 10% Happier. Auto-generated from episode audio; may contain minor errors.

Dan Harris: Emma Seppälä and Ethan Kross,   welcome back to the show, both  of you. Great to be here. Thank Ethan Kross: you. Great to be with both of Dan Harris: you. Yeah. Yeah. Um,  all right. So we're talking about,   uh, getting your emotional shit  together, um, uh, AKA emotion regulation,   and we're going through the top 10, uh,  neuroscience-backed tips for emotion regulation. I wanna start with a foundational,  uh, tip, and this one, uh, really is,   uh, something that you've spoken about a lot,  Ethan, uh, so I'll start with you on this,   is, uh, you say that one of the most  important moves, the foundational move,   is to understand what an emotion  actually is.

Can you say more about that? Ethan Kross: Yeah. Like, a lot of  people think that we should just   strive to lean into the positive and avoid  negative emotions as much as possible,   and I like to remind people that all emotions,  when they're experienced in the right proportions,   are actually useful. We evolved the capacity to  experience negative e- emotions for a reason. They help us. So how might that possibly  be? How could anxiety, for example,   possibly be good? Well, uh, let me give you  an example. When I think back to, uh, all the   different presentations I've given over the  years, there's one that sticks out, and it   was a flop.

I experienced no anxiety beforehand.  None. As a result, I just kinda, you know, uh,   strolled right into the, to the auditorium, and  I didn't really know what I was gonna talk about. So what anxiety does is it alerts us  to important things that lie ahead. It   harnesses our attention and effectively says,  "Hey, dopey, pay attention, prepare." Dopey is   my version of anxiety. That's how I minimize  it. All of our negative emotions have that   functionality when they are proportional. I'm  emphasizing proportional here because the big,   giant problem that humanity faces is we don't  just experience a little ping of anxiety,   focus on the task at hand, prepare, and move on.

We experience these emotions, they're  too intense or they last too long,   and that's where they become problematic. But,  uh, you know, when my daughters experience   a little anxiety before an exam, I, I  say to them, "Hey, this is, this is you   working exactly how you should work. Harness  that." And I think that's a real reframe- Hmm for a lot of people because it  means there's nothing wrong with   you if you're feeling bad at times. In  fact, there's everything right with you. Dan Harris: But s- say a little bit more, Ethan,   about what an emotion actually is and why-  Sure ...

it's useful to understand that. Ethan Kross: So emotions are these,   um responses that prepare us to deal with  different circumstances that we face. And these emotions that we experience, we  experience them in response to things that   are meaningful to us, um, either because it's  something important happening in the world or   we think it's meaningful. And when we register  that specific set of meaningful circumstances,   we have these like different software programs  that get loaded up to prepare us to deal with it. So I gave you one example already with  anxiety, uh, something important that   lies ahead in the future.

Um, let's  take anger. When might we experience   this response of anger? We experience  anger when we perceive some injustice,   our sense of right and wrong has been violated,  and there's something you could do to fix it. So this anger response gets loaded up, and it  motivates you to try to rectify the situation.   So I see one of my daughters do something that  they shouldn't do. For example, hypothetically,   maybe one of my daughters has her friends over the  house and they wanna do one of these, you know,   crazy TikTok challenges, and I say, "No, under no  circumstances," and then they go ahead and do it.

My sense of what's right and wrong has been  triggered, and I'm motivated to approach the   situation to convey some anger to my daughter  to prevent that from happening aga-again. Now,   this is proportional, right? It's  not throwing things or hitting   people or anything like that.  This is a, an adaptive response. And, and you can play this game-- It's not a  game, it's a calculus that describes how our   emotions help us, uh, for all different  kinds of emotional responses. Emma, did Dan Harris: you wanna Ethan Kross: jump in on any of this?

Emma Seppälä: Yeah. I mean, I, I love, uh,  Ethan's description. Um, having worked with,   um, populations with trauma, like veterans,  I also want to bring up that sometimes our   emotions can come up and they're not, um,  they don't correspond in their mag- in   their magnitude to the situation if  potentially you're carrying trauma. So, you know, I remember one of the veterans  that was in one of our studies, he said,   "I'm standing in front of the mall, and I know  there's nothing wrong with the mall. I'm in   the middle of Wisconsin, but I have to brace  myself for 20 minutes to go into the mall."   And so because he had post-traumatic stress and a  memory of having been in an explosion in, uh, in a   war zone in a crowded environment, this memory  that he had was stopping him from being able   to experience the present moment, which is one  that is unlikely to be dangerous, as dangerous.

So I think that's where past trauma  can also impact how we experience   the present and how strong our  emotions are in the present,   and that's where healing Needs to take place  and understand in order to, um, you know,   in order not to, um, have these overwhelming  kind of emotions, if that makes sense. Dan Harris: Yeah. It sounds attractive as somebody who,   uh, has to brace himself before-  Yeah ... all kinds of things. Um,   well- And- So let, let's keep moving through  this list. Oh, sorry, Ethan, go ahead.

Yeah, Ethan Kross: I just wanted  to highlight, Emma, you know,   that's such a wonderful example  that illustrates how on the one   hand we have this incredibly powerful  apparatus, this emotional system. We're emotional beings. You know, we experience  emotions about 90% of the time that we're awake,   and if you're like me, a significant portion of  my sleeping life is felt experiencing emotions   for a variety of reasons. And, um, but it's  a, it's a, it's an imperfect tool. It's,   it's so easy to miscalibrate this tool as is the  case in that, um, you know, description you gave   of the trauma survivor, and that really highlights  the urgent need to understand how to regulate.

And, you know, it just so happens we  evolved the ability to experience emotions,   we also co-evolved the exper-  the ability to manage them. And,   um, and so I just think it  really, uh, highlights that, um, Dan Harris: uh, urgency really well. Well said. So  let's, uh, dive into some of the, the tools for,   uh, said management. Um, so just to  reset, uh, uh, we're going through   the top 10 neuroscience-backed  tips for me- emotion regulation. Number one is just understanding what emotions  are, uh, and that regulation is possible, and   that even, uh, difficult emotions like anxiety and  anger are, are, um, can be harnessed.

Uh, uh, tip   number two is to practice self-compassion.  So Emma, let me go to you on that score. Emma Seppälä: Yeah, I mean,  it's really interesting. You know, whenever I teach audiences and ask,  "How many of you are self-critical?" 99% of   the room raise their hand. And if you look at the  definition of self-criticism, like psychological   definition, it's self-loathing, which sounds so  intense, you know? And I think some people think,   "Well, self-criticism just means, you know, I'm  gonna improve myself if I see what my flaws are." But there's a difference between self-criticism  and self-awareness, and it's just like Ethan   was talking about, this awareness, right?  And so when we have awareness of, say, "Oh,   I'm not great at this.

I need help with  it," that's one thing. Self-criticism is,   "I'm not great at this," you know, "I'm  such a failure," and so on and so forth. And m- many, m- I mean, most people, especially  there's an interesting statistic about um, most,   uh, Gen X, uh, people believe, "I'm not good  enough," with regards to almost every facet   of their life. That's a lot. Of people- Yeah  ... feeling a lot of negative feelings about   themselves. And so what the data shows  is that when you're highly self-critical,   it's the opposite of what people think  self-criticism is good for, right?

They think self-criticism is good,  uh, for improving performance. But   what the data actually shows is  that if you're very self-critical,   you actually end up with more anxiety, more  depression. You're less likely, um, to bounce   back from situations. You have fear of failure.  So it's basically the opposite of resilience. But if you take on a more self-compassionate  stance, which it sounds soft and fuzzy,   but it has so much hard data behind it that  it's really worth paying attention to. So   self-compassion is basically the difference  between what most people say to themselves   when they make a mistake, which is all these  harsh things, and the things people would say   to their best friend or their child who just  made a similar mistake, which is the opposite.

I remember, um, you know, during, uh, during the  pandemic when we were doing so much teaching on   Zoom, and I would just ask people, I'd go,  "Okay, what, what are, what did you say to   yourself the last time you made a mistake?"  And I'd ask people to write it in the chat,   and you'd see these hundreds of horrible  things that people say to themselves. And then I would ask, "Well, what do you, would  you say to your best friend who calls you and   tells you about a m- similar mistake that  they made?" And it's completely different.   And you gotta ask yourself why.

Like,  it's like a conditioning or a program,   you know? Our parents probably had  this and their ancestors, you know? You know, we don't know why it happens  this way, but one thing we do know is   that it is really destructive for us  and does not help us regulate. And   what the data shows on self-compassion,  which is basically being mindful, so,   uh, to what Ethan was saying and to what you  teach, Dan, being mindful of what happened. Like, "Oh, I made a mistake. Oh, you know,  I'm feeling this, that, the other." Um,   but then n- not taking it further,  but remembering that everyone makes   mistakes.

Also remembering to speak to  yourself as you would to a friend. So,   um, what the data shows is you have better  mental health, you have better physical health,   you have better relationships, which is also  interesting because when we're really hard on   ourselves, we're also hardest on the people  we love the most and wanna hurt the least. Um, we have better sleep, we  have better health outcomes,   um, and the list goes on. You're basically more  resilient in times of struggles and difficulty. Dan Harris: Yes. I mean, I think there's  so much pathos in the fact that the thing   we're doing to keep ourselves safe  is actually making us less safe.

And,   um, you're, you're-- I, I  completely agree with you,   not only about the science, but also about  just from my own personal experience- Yes that switching from an inner drill sergeant  to an inner coach unlocks an enorm- like a,   a very powerful upward spiral of  benefits. Just, just for people listening,   um, uh, self-compassion, um, as many  of you know, was really named and,   and the research was p- uh, uh, very truly  pioneered by a woman named Kristin Neff,   and she often talks about this three-step process  for moments when you're kicking your own ass.

Uh, the first is just to be mindful of the  fact that it's happening. The second is to   call, uh, to mind the f- uh, the fact  that millions of other people right   now are dealing with the same thing. In  other words, you're not an aberration   for feeling whatever you're feeling. And then  the third, in my opinion the most important,   is to just talk to yourself, as Emma  said, as you would talk to a good friend. And this is where I, I combine Kristin's  work with your work, Ethan, which is,   which has shown that when talking to yourself, um,  you can use the third person.

You can say, "Ethan,   it's not that bad," or, or, "Dude," "bro,"  whatever, "you're, you're good." Um, that,   you call it distant self-talk, is a very effective  way to get through to yourself, in essence. Ethan Kross: That's right. When you, you can use  your name, you can use a second person pronoun,   you, and, um, to try to work through a  problem. And what we see happening when   people use language, these linguistic shifts to  change the way they ref- to refer to themselves,   it alters their perspective. Now you're,  you're in this kind of coaching stance.

You're, you're, you're, you're much more  patient and compassionate than you would   be if you were thinking about your, um,  circumstances the way we typically do   in the first person, like I, me, my. You  know, language is a really interesting,   um, window and into how we are thinking  about ourselves. Um, what we see in this   work that I just described, it  can be a lever, it can be a tool. So when you shift from I to Dan, if you will,  that's putting you into this advice-giving mode.   There's another, um, linguistic shift that,  Emma, what you were describing made me think   about.

It's one of my favorite findings.  Uh, we, we did these studies years ago   in which we wanted to understand whether  there's a linguistic signature to making   meaning out of really tough experiences,  and we found something really interesting. Lots of people, when they're trying to  work through, like, really big stuff,   they start off talking about it In the first  person. "Oh, man, I didn't, you know, I,   I really screwed up that interview. I mean,  Dan was looking at me like I'm an idiot,   and E- Emma was actually rolling her eyes,  and oh my God, now everyone's gonna see this." Uh, right?

So you-- And then at a certain point,  the meaning-making kind of inflection point,   people do something odd. They then go, "You live,  you learn. What are you, what are you gonna do?   It happens to everyone." And they're using  the word you there not to refer to someone   else or themselves. They're using the  word you to refer to people in general. They're effectively saying, "Well,  what is anyone gonna do if they were   in this situation? Anyone would suffer  the same calamity." So th- they're,   they're universalizing their experience.

They're  normalizing it. And people do this automatically   without even thinking about it. We call this the  generic you. It's referring to people in general. And it's an indicator of exactly what you two  are saying you both personally and others benefit   from. It's this capacity to, "Hey, we're not  alone. We're all screwing up at times." And,   uh, we're already doing it, and there are  ways to weaponize that tactic even further.   Maybe weaponize is the wrong choice  of words, but you know what I mean. Dan Harris: No.

I mean weaponize in a  positive way. Yeah, exactly. And, and this   is co- co- core to your work, Ethan, and, um,  and I think it's incredibly powerful that we,   we have this inner chatter. By the way, that's the  name of Ethan's first book, "Chatter." Um, and,   uh, we, uh, so often are truly  weaponizing it against ourselves   in ways that we think is keeping us on  our toes but is actually reducing our,   uh, happiness and effectiveness and  the quality of our relationships. But you can, and I think this is just, like, world  historic, uh, in its importance, uh, you can,   uh, uh, take affirmative action to, to change  your inner dialogue in a way, in ways that will   boost your performance, boost your happiness,  et cetera, et cetera.

I just, I can't get over   how awesome that is. In the interest of time,  though, I do wanna move on to the third tip. And Emma, I'm gonna start with you  again. Um, uh, and you argue that   one of the keys to emotion regulation is to  stop chronically suppressing. Please say more. Emma Seppälä: Yeah. This is some classic research  in emotion regulation, um, conducted in part by   my, um, my graduate school advisor, James Gross,  and colleagues. And it's just really interesting,   you know, because I always just think that,  you know, no matter how many degrees you have,   how many languages you speak, how many, you  know, what level you are in a, a company,   chances are you have as much knowledge about  how to handle your emotions as a five-year-old.

Like, most people are walking around  never having gotten any formal   training in how to handle our emotions.  So You know, no matter who you ask from,   and from where in the world, like every  audience I ask this question, like,   "So what do you-- what have you learned about  what to do with your big, bad, negative emotions?" Most of the time it's suppression.  You know, suck it up, buttercup.   Like even some com- some cultures that  are more expressive with their negative,   negative emotions, inevitably there's  certain emotions that are suppressed.   And so that, this is our classic emotion  regulation strategy that doesn't work,   because what the data actually shows is that when  you suppress something, let's say anger, right?

Anger already gets your heart rate going,  your sympathetic nervous system is activated,   inflammation rises. Like, there's just so much  happening physiologically. When you suppress the   emotion, meaning you're just like, "I'm fine.  Nothing's going on over here. Everything's just   fine," but you're actually angry on the inside,  those systems actually get more activated. At the level of the brain, there's more  activity- Hmm ... in areas of the brain,   uh, th- it-- that are responsible for emotion for,  for, um, high stress. And so it's fascinating,   right? It's like everybody is kinda doing this  thing 'cause they don't know what else to do.   But that thing is making their emotions  stronger, which in- inevitably leads to   either people blowing up at some point in  an inappropriate manner or imploding with,   um, stomach aches and, and  migraines and health issues.

Or it seeps out as passive  aggression, which, you know,   sometimes feels even more aggressive than actual  full-blown anger, right? So the question is,   well, this doesn't work, you know? And  this is what we've all been taught. So   that's really fascinating to me. Um, but  I guess one of my favorite studies on,   um, suppression is that, you know, we suppress  because we're trying to be civil, right? So it's, it, it'd be inappropriate  for me to dump my latte on my boss's   laptop right now 'cause I'm mad at  them, so I'm just gonna, you know,   suppress.

So, but the problem is that if I  were angry right now and I were suppressing,   you guys would-- your heart rate would be  increasing, and you wouldn't know cognitively,   like, what's going on, but internally  your heart rate would be increasing. And what's really interesting is that  sometimes, you know, we've all experienced that,   where you're around someone and you don't feel  comfortable around them and you don't know why.   But physiologically, you're reacting. And,  um, research even with, uh, with horses and   equine-facilitated therapy, I don't know if  you've, uh, heard mu- much about it, but it's   really fascinating because the psychologist  is working with a horse with the patient.

Let's say the patient has anxiety,  right? And the patient comes up and says,   "I'm not scared of the horse, I'm  just fine." But if they're scared   and they're pretending to be fine, the horse  is moving all over the place. It's really,   um, anxious. And as soon as the person  says, "I'm s- I'm fine-- I, I'm, I'm scared. I'm not, I'm actually really scared of this  horse," the horse calms down. It's like, well,   why? It doesn't understand English, right? But  the horse registers inauthenticity as threat.   So why am I sharing this?

Because our physiology  also responds that way. around inauthenticity as   threat, right? So, um, so this technique that  most people use doesn't work for us, doesn't   work for our relationships, and research shows our  relationships suffer if we tend to suppress a lot. Dan Harris: This episode is sponsored by  BetterHelp. May is Mental Health Awareness Month,   and a reminder that whatever you're dealing  with, you do not have to deal with it alone.   I actually just, uh, came through a little bit  of a depressive episode in my life.

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Don't forget  to use our link so they know we sent you. Yeah, I just wanna emphasize that, um,  because this is the second time you've,   you've mentioned this, um, that the fact  that, and you didn't quite use these words,   that these are my words, but the, the, there  is a tendency among some people to think, "Oh,   well, if I do the self-care,"  to use the de rigueur term,   um, uh, "to manage my emotions, well,  that's, that's kinda self-indulgent. It's, um, selfish. I should be, you know, taking  care of my kids, taking care of my colleagues,"   whatever it is.

But actually, developing  self-compassion, learning the skills of emotion   regulation more broadly redounds to the To the  benefit of everybody who crosses your path. And,   um, I just, uh, I just think that's  another reason to do this work. It's not just your happiness  at stake. But, but Emma,   well let me just stay with you because y- y-  you just talked about, uh, tip number three,   which is to stop chronically suppressing. Tip  number four is the thing to do instead, which is   the counterintuitive and sometimes difficult, but  better than the alternative, uh, feel the thing.

Emma Seppälä: Mm-hmm. Yeah. I mean, I, I think  that, uh, a lot of times we don't wanna feel bad,   you know? Especially, yeah, maybe  especially in American culture where,   you know, we're supposed to be for the pursuit  of happiness, and there's this sense that we   don't ever wanna feel bad ever. You know, in  certain cultures, like in China, there's this,   um, there's this Chinese quote that is,  um, "Eating bitterness is good fortune." The idea that, you know, even difficult  moments are a gift because you grow from them,   you learn from them.

Um, and even in, in  other cultures, like in Germany for example,   condolence cards look really different  than here. Condolence cards in the US,   this is a research study run out of, um, Stanford  as well, uh, uh, those cards are more like,   "Hey, you know, I hope you feel better soon." Whereas in Germany they're more like, "I'm with  you in your suffering," right? This idea that in,   in our c- in American culture in particular, we  won't feel bad ever, and there's a plethora of   ways we can distract ourselves constantly, whether  you're on your phone or you're busy or you're,   you're doing a million things, pleasure,  you know, watching movies, whatever.

I mean, we have so many things to choose  from that this can distract us from how   we feel. But at the end of the day, if  we're not processing what we're feeling,   it's there waiting for us, you know? But  we're just more beat up from whatever it   is we've been doing to try and  avoid it, if that makes sense. But if you look at a child, the  child will feel that emotion 100%,   the little kid. Be so mad, and like two  seconds later they're best friends with   the brother they were so mad at.

They've let  the emotion go through them. You can think   of emotion as energy in motion. It's this  big energy that's moving through, you know? Are you letting it move through?  Are you trying to push it down? Dan Harris: I've had this experience recently,  and I'm gonna come to you, uh, on this, Ethan,   um, uh, where I've had a, a, a  very unpleasant resurgence in   some anxiety and depression. And I really  see, even after, I don't know, almost 16,   17, 18 years of being a meditator,  like I don't wanna f*cking feel it.

Like I- it's very unpleasant, and I'm-- my first  instinct is to do 75 other things, um, instead of   just feeling it. Um, and so my question for you,  Ethan, is if we all can agree that it is better to   feel it than suppress it, what are the modalities  that you recommend for allowing yourself to feel Ethan Kross: it Uh, accepting the fact that,  uh, so if you're motivated to feel it and you   don't want to change that, we could talk  about things you could do to change it.

But if you do wanna sit with the emotion  because it's serving you well in some manner,   um, r- accepting the fact that it's gonna take  some time for the emotion to wash over you,   uh, what we often talk about as  distress tolerance can be a really,   really useful tool, right?  So, so just recognizing,   like there is a truism that characterizes  the vast majority of our emotional responses. If we get outside the territory of clinical forms  of anxiety and depression, which by definition   hang around for a really long time, the, the,  the bulk of our everyday emotional experiences,   they follow the same time course.

You're  living life, like here's n- here's your   emotion readout if you're, if you're, if  you're listening, I'm drawing a little finger. It's going, you know, just parallel to the floor,  then all of a sudden it spikes up like an EKG   heart rate monitor. That's your emotion getting  triggered, and then it'll stay up for a while,   but as time goes on, it gradually fades. Um, one  of the reasons one of my favorite tools, temporal   distancing or mental time travel into the future  works, is because it makes people aware of this.

So what is mental time travel into  the future? Oh my God, I just had the,   a meeting again with these two i- interviewees.  My God, they just keep berating me endlessly,   making me feel like crap. Well, you  know, I've been through this before. Um,   how am I gonna feel about this tomorrow or  next week? It sounds so trivial, but that tiny,   tiny shift in how you're thinking about your  circumstance, what it does is it activates this   understanding that all of us have because  we've lived through millions, that's not   an exaggeration, we've lived through millions of  emotional experiences that have this time course.

Yeah, it's gonna be not so, so great for  the next, you know, three hours, maybe 18,   depending on who you are, but eventually you'll  come down from it. And so, uh, that recognition   is vital. I think it is so incredibly powerful  for allowing people to sit with what they're   experiencing, 'cause fundamentally, it gives  them hope that circumstances are gonna improve. Emma Seppälä: Mm-hmm. I love that,  Ethan. Yes. J- uh, let me just Dan Harris: jump in for a second, Emma. Um,  just to call out that Ethan has moved us   into tip number five, which is reappraisal  or shifting your perspective on whatever   emotion you're feeling.

Uh, Emma, d- um, m-  more to say from you on, on this strategy? Emma Seppälä: Well, I just love what Ethan said. By the way, I just love hearing your  voice, Ethan. It's so soothing. Um- Oh, Ethan Kross: well, well, thank  you. Now we're changing the,   the tenor of this interview. I can't use my two...  I'm just joking. That's very kind of you to say. Emma Seppälä: Yeah, no, it's, I, I love what  you're sharing because also remembering,   gosh, I've been through so many, like  you said, millions of emotions like   this in the past, and I've survived  them, and I'm right here right now.

So I d- I just love that, that point. Ethan Kross: Yeah. I mean, 90% of the  time we're awake, I love this factoid,   we're experiencing stuff. 9- that's like,  it means we're always basically feeling   something. These are, you know,  and, and I don't even know what   I was feeling this morning. I mean, I  could go back. It was pain, actually. It was in the gym. I didn't wanna be  there. I'm feeling fine now. So, um,   lots of ways to harness that kind of knowledge.  And, um, apologies, Dan, for, for jumping Dan Harris: the gun.

Not at all. J-  guns are meant to be jumped on. I'm here to just,   uh, eventually, uh, uh, uh, provide some  structure, even if it's, uh, uh, ex post facto. Um, so let's go to tip number six, and  Emma, I'll go back to you for this one.   Uh, breathe. How is breathing  a tool for emotion regulation? Emma Seppälä: So, you know, back when I was a  grad student in James Gross's lab, and I lo- I   love James Gross, he's, you know, forever my  mentor. Um, but I, I guess I had an issue with,   um, just looking at suppression and reapprais-  so reappraisal was the big thing that,   um, that the lab studied, which is  basically, you know, trying to reframe   the situation so it doesn't seem so bad,  which I think, which works really well.

Like, it can help, um, the emotion, uh, calm  down, you know, at a level of the brain,   at the level of physiology. But I guess my issue  with this idea of reframing was it doesn't always   work. You know? I- it doesn't work when you  have really strong emotion, because in order   to reframe a situation and think about it from  a different perspective, you know, you're using   your prefrontal cortex to kind of think more  logically and rationally about the situation. But what research also shows is that  when your system is in high stress or,   um, another very intense emotion, you actually  have a loss of prefrontal regulation.

You don't,   you lose the ability. You know, it's like  when we try to talk a child out of a tantrum,   it doesn't work 'cause the kid's brain  doesn't, isn't, not gonna work that way. We're kind of the simil- we're kind of  similar when our emotion is extremely strong,   which is why, you know, when someone  comes up to you and they're like,   and you're anxious and they're like, "Hey,  you should calm down," it doesn't work, right?   So, um, so this is, um, where I, as I  kept thinking about that and I was like,   "There's something that, we gotta find a different  way 'cause reappraisal doesn't always work." And, you know, as academics, we're always in  the head, but Mental strategies don't always   work for everyone all the time,  right?

So, about 13 years ago,   my husband walked in the room and he was pale.  And I said, "What's going on?" And he said Jake   was in an IED. So my husband was in the Marine  Cor- was in the Marine Corps, and Jake was one   of his friends who was in Afghanistan, and  his, uh, vehicle drove over a roadside bomb. Now, in that moment that we, hopefully none of us  can even imagine how horrific that experience is,   the sound, the noise, the  shrapnel flying, the terror,   and of course the panic and excruciating pain  of s- very severe injury like he had.

Okay,   so in that moment, usually you would  fall unconscious from the trauma, but,   um, and, and Jake looked down and he  saw his legs were extremely injured. Extremely injured. Um, so in that moment,  he actually didn't fall unconscious. He   remembered something he'd read about in a book,   uh, for, for soldiers who could be, uh, entering  these kind of situations. And in that book,   it taught a breathing exercise. And so he  started to engage in that breathing exercise. And because he did that, he was able to regain the  ability to think clearly and to do his first act   of duty, which was to check on the other service  members, to do his second act of duty, which was   to give orders to call for help.

And it-- and then  he even had the presence of mind to tourniquet his   own legs and to think of propping them upward  before lying down and falling unconscious. He was then urgently transported to Germany  and, and Walter Reed, and he was told,   "If you hadn't done those things, you would've  died that day." Now Jake is alive and well in   the US. He has three children. He's a  stay-at-home dad. I just talked to him   the other day. It's just so amazing. I always  think if Jake could save his life and the life   of the others in the vehicle by using his breath  in the most stressful experience we can imagine,   then what can breathing not help us with in  our less stressful, yet still stressful lives?

And so, um, I was really inspired to  run several studies with high trauma   or high anxiety populations on breathing for  wellbeing. And I have to say that in the moment,   if-- we live in a time when we need things that  work, work well and work fast. Breathing is   probably one of the most efficient ways to  down-regulate when something is happening. Uh, I can go more into those  studies, but yeah, depends on- Dan Harris: I think I'd be curious  to hear just, uh, I'll take your word   for the studies.

I, uh, and I think everybody  listening will. I think I'd be curious to hear,   as an anxious person, and, uh, I, I suspect, uh,  many listening would characterize themselves,   uh, similarly Give us a breathing exercise  that can help us calm down when we need it. Emma Seppälä: Yeah, sure. You know, and a  lot of these breathing exercises stem out of,   you know, India 10,000 years ago, um, the  yoga tradition. But what's interesting is   that different breathing practices can do  different things. So, you know, some of,   some of these breathing practices are meant  for people who are gonna go in a battle to,   like, amp them up, and others  are meant to calm you down.

So I always give a caveat if-- You know,  I always suggest learn from a professional   rather than a YouTube video 'cause you  don't know what that breathing exercise   is gonna do. But keeping things really  simple, we know that when we breathe in,   our heart rate increases, and when  you breathe out, it slows down. So if you do an exercise that's very  simple, where you simply breathe in,   fill your lungs to a count of  four, and you breathe out, say,   to a count of eight or six or eight,  something longer, you're starting to   activate the parasympathetic nervous system  and calm down.

So I always recommend, you know,   just close your eyes and do that for five minutes,  and then see before and after how you feel. You'll start to notice immediately.  In fact, you can play with this in the   doctor's office. I sometimes do, and they're  checking your heart rate, and they're like,   "Are you alive?" You know? Uh, but you can  noticeably see a change in, in minutes. Dan Harris: That's really cool. Ethan, let  me go back to you for tip number seven. Um, using your senses to shift your emotional  state.

Um, can you hold forth on that? Ethan Kross: Yeah. So we have, uh, you know,  sight, sound, touch, smell. Uh, sight, sound,   touch, smell. What am I-- Forget. Hearing. Um,  these are the five major senses. Taste. Taste. Oh,   sorry, taste. That's right. Big one. Big one. Um,  these are, these are, um, systems through which   we take in information from the world around us,  and part of the way they work is through emotion. These are incredibly powerful  shifters of our emotion,   and at one level, we all know this.  So if you ask people as an example,   uh, well, actually, let me just do it on  you, uh, Dan and Emma.

I'm gonna make a,   uh, radical assumption here that each of  you at times listens to music. Fair to say? Emma Seppälä: Yes. Ethan Kross: Yeah? Fair? Fair to say, yes. Okay, so why do you do it? Yes. Why do  you do it? Why do you listen to music? Emma Seppälä: I definitely love music  that's soothing, and, um, and, and when   I accidentally hear music that's more emotional  or in a different way, like piano, then I will   definitely notice emotions there. It can bring  tears even, just hearing piano in a grocery store.

Okay. But, but on the other hand,   I'll voluntarily turn on music that  is soothing when I need that. Yeah. Ethan Kross: Okay. And Dan? Dan Harris: Yeah. I use, uh, rather aggressive Uh,   music to work out to and then, uh, more  soothing music when I'm driving and don't   wanna, you know, scream at people in  traffic. So, s- so, so both of you Ethan Kross: are indicating that you, you're  listening to music for emotional purposes. Different purposes, but emotional. And if you ask  people why th- writ large they listen to music,   almost 100% will say they listen to music 'cause  it likes the way it make-- they like the way it   makes them feel.

But then if you look at when  people are struggling with anger, anxiety,   sadness, how many of them actually avail  themselves of music to shift their emotions? It's between 10 and 30%. Music is one of  the quickest ways to shift your emotions,   to regulate your emotions in another direction.   Um, you know, I will-- When I'm presenting  to big groups, I, I tell people, "Hey, I'm   gonna regulate your emotions right now, and it's  gonna take me a whole of three seconds to do it. Are you ready?" And people look with, at me with,  like, intense skepticism because we, of course,   think it's really hard to manip- to, to move  someone else's emotions.

And then I just turn   on Journey's "Don't Stop Believin'." Boom. 90%  of the crowd is smiling and bopping their head,   and the other 10% are looking at me  with scorn because they hate the song. Doesn't matter. They're both feeling something,  right? Um, so the senses are just such powerful   levers, and we don't always appreciate it.  Sometimes we actually leverage the senses   to shift us in counterproductive ways. As an  example, lots of people when they're really   sad and they don't wanna be sad anymore,  they won't listen to the pump-up music.

They'll instead listen to the sad music to,  to help them go deeper into that state. I   like to tell people if that's working for  you, and there's good reason to think that   listening to a song that is congruent with  what you're feeling may help you process an   experience. But if you wanna get out of  that state, go in the other direction. Now, music and sound, that's one  example. If we go down the list,   let's go to smell. Uh, both of you,  I don't know your hygiene practices,   but I'm guessing each of you have doused  yourself or schlacked yourself with a substance   to influence the way you feel about yourself or  other people feel when they walk by you, i.e.

you're wearing deodorant or perfume, cologne,  aftershave, something like that. Fair to say?   Mm-hmm. Scented shampoo? Yes. Okay. Of course.  Nodding heads. Yeah. So scents, huge industries.   Why do we, why do we put those things on us? Why  do hotels pump scents through the ventilation   systems? They wanna make people feel a certain  way and pair that feeling with the establishment. Food Uh, you know, I don't like to look at  our credit card bill when it comes to the,   the amount of money we spend at  restaurants and, and, you know,   at the fancy food shop sometimes.

Why do we do  that? It's not just su- sustenance. If it were,   we'd be walking around with IV bags attached  to our arms. Eating is an emotional experience. Touch. We don't have to go deep into touch.  I think we all know how pleasant the right   kind of embraces with people who you want  to be embraced with, I'll stop there, um,   that arouses positivity. Um, so all of your  senses are just these really, really powerful,   uh, shifters of, of your emotion, and if you  understand how this works, it also puts you   in a position to use those apparatus to shift  other people's emotions in a helpful direction.

Mm. Putting on the right- Yeah ... music,  the right scents. Um, you know, uh,   my daughters are having a stressful day at school.  It's, uh, you know, it used to be actually pre-   preteen I could just go over and a, a gentle  kinda caress of the back was well-received.   Not so much anymore. But you've got, you  know, you have many options to choose from. So that's the power of the senses, and,   um, and we shouldn't overlook them  as an emotion regulation tool. Dan Harris: I'm-- I believe I  met your elder daughter, uh,   um, a couple of months ago,  and she's awesome.

Um- Yeah. Ethan Kross: She still, she still- Really ...  reminds me how much she enjoyed-- Um, I mean,   you, you, you, you had a real gift for actually  talking to her like she really mattered, and,   uh, she still reminds me of that, so  I'm thankful, um, of that exchange. Dan Harris: I don't k- I don't know. I don't  give myself the credit in that exchange.   She's, uh, she's a very cool kid. And, uh,  just as a side note, she was telling me how   she uses AI in these really clever ways to, like,  explain, to get AI to explain math concepts in,   in the voice of the characters from Gossip  Girl.

You c- you remember- Uh, that really   struck me as a, as a really smart  way to leverage the technology. But anyway, let's get back on point here, um,  uh, and talk about tip number eight. Um, Emma,   let me go to you for this. Your advice, uh,  for one way to regulate your emotions is to,   uh, and I believe this is your term,  tend your inputs. What does that mean? Emma Seppälä: Yes, absolutely. Um, so,  you know, we take over 60,000 gigabytes   of information in every day, and this is a  conservative number from a few years ago.

I don't even wanna know what it is now.  Um, but that's enough to s- you know,   crash a small computer in a week. I mean, it  is so much input from-- This is from-- This is   an average from all of our media sources that we  take in three days. So Everything that we absorb,   everything that we watch, everything  that we listen to impacts us emotionally. You know, you check your inbox,  you got eight messages, you know,   each one of those could trigger a different  emotion. Your tax person says you didn't-- you   owe more money than you think.

The next thing your  boss wants something from you yesterday. You know,   the next thing someone sends  you their newborn baby pics. And in the couple minutes that we spend just  checking our inbox, we probably experience   more emotions than our ancestors did, you know,  100 years ago. So there's... And knowing how   we're impacted by things like, for example, the  headlines, the news, you know? Most of the news,   I would say 99% of the news is, and Dan, you  know this better than anyone, is negative, right? Yep.

It's just negative. It's fear, uh, inducing,   it's anger inducing. So it is so important  to have awareness, and I think that's been a   topic we've been talking about throughout,  is this awareness of w- how am I feeling,   but also how are things making me feel like,  like Ethan so beautifully just spoke about. And am I consciously choosing or letting  others choose for me? For example,   if I just go ahead and just sit down and watch  whatever or scroll through whatever, because every   single one of those things is input that has an  emotional impact on you.

So choosing sovereignty,   making, uh, making sovereign choices and  very conscious choices is so important. You know, what is the first thing  you're gonna do when you wake up   in the morning? Are you really gonna be  checking your phone? Are you gonna be   really checking the news? What's that  gonna do to you? It's gonna put you in   fight or flight right away. Is that what  you want? If that's what you want, great. What are you doing right before bed? Do you  wanna sleep well? What are you gonna watch?   What are you gonna listen to, right?

So,  um, this goes so well with what Ethan was   just saying about music and, and other  ways that we can influence how we feel Dan Harris: For me, every day is packed with  stuff. I need a lot of energy to get through   all of the meetings and all of the creative  work and exercise and meditation that I pack   into every day. If energy is an issue  for you, you might wanna check out, uh,   one of our sponsors today, Spark Energy+Focus  is your go-to pre-workout ritual when you   need a reliable energy to power you  through a lift, ride, run, or class.

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Spark Energy+Focus is offering 30% off  and free shipping. Go to drinkspark.com   and use the code HAPPIER at checkout.  That's code HAPPIER at drinkspark.com. I'd be curious on the, on this topic of tending to  your inputs, uh, what's your take on Instagram? I,   um, as I've mentioned many times on this  show, uh, deleted Instagram from my phone   a couple months ago, and I noticed,  um, that it was massively helpful. Ethan Kross: Um, well, I think,  uh, I completely agree that you   wanna be aware of what your triggers are.

Triggers that set you in the wrong emotional  direction, but also triggers that can send you   in the right direction. So as you  were talking, I, I thought about,   uh, I deleted The New York Times app  from, uh, from my phone several months   ago. I haven't put it back, and I'm massively  happier. Now, I still read The New York Times,   but I used to read it every time I  checked my phone, and the bombardment of,   of just a s- you know, information, uh, I found  was not serving me well, so I got rid of it.

Um, with respect to Instagram, uh I  think there's really good reason why   removing it from your phone may serve you  well. I have actually kept it on my iPad,   and I do so for a very particular reason.  So I actually find that Instagram,   I use it in a very specific way, and it's an  emotion regulatory way that serves me well. Um, I, I watch these, you know, ridiculously  funny, silly reels. Uh, it kinda takes the edge   off, uh, after a long day, and I'll, I'll often,  like, share them with my friends, and they send   me these very silly, um, videos that my w- I  sh- I'll show my wife one out of every five,   and she just rolls her eyes and, and, and,  "I don't know why these are funny to you." Am I the only one who's ever had  this experience, by the way?

Um- Dan Harris: I saw I saw, I saw in, uh,  a video the other day. I, I, so I do,   I still have TikTok on my phone. Okay. And  TikTok does not bum me out the way Instagram   does. Sure. And I, uh, I use it for the exact same  reason you do. And I saw a funny video the, the   other day of a woman on the couch, and you could  hear in the distance a male laughing hysterically,   and the caption said, "I know in 30 seconds  he's gonna send me a really stupid video." Ethan Kross: I literally saw that last  night, and I showed it to my wife,   and she gave me the look.

So, um, so I use it  in a very purposeful way i- in that regard,   and it serves me well. Um, uh, if I went  down the wrong, the wrong path in it, would   it trigger me in some way with social comparisons?  Absolutely, and that would not make me feel great. And so I think it's really about, like, if we  zoom out, what is emotion regulation about?   It is about aligning your thoughts, feelings,   and behaviors with your goals. So what are your  goals here, right? Like, my goal is before bed,   I wanna feel happy.

I wanna feel good. It helps  me go to bed. So that helps serve my goals. Um, if my goal is to not be overwhelmed with  a highlight reel of other people's lives,   then I should stay away from social media.  If my goal is to not be reminded of all of   the terrible things that are happening in the  world right now every 13 minutes or less, then   I should probably take the New York Times off my  phone and dose it at particular times of the day. So it's really about being deliberate  about what are the goals that I have,   and then how do I structure my life to  help me reach those regulatory goals?   These tools that we're talking about, they're  all instruments in the service of that end.

Dan Harris: Emma, what are your-- How do you  tend to your inputs? Like, what are you-- Where,   uh, in the spirit of know thyself that Ethan  is preaching, like, uh, how do you apply this? Emma Seppälä: Well, I'm very deliberate.  Um, I don't have Instagram on my phone.   I check the news very sparingly and  with a lot of awareness. Um- You know,   when I spoke to Pico Iyer, I don't know if  you had him on the show. Sure, yes. He, yeah,   he just said, you know, "I'm a current events,  uh, journalist, and I'm gonna tell you that our   job is to create anxiety because that's how people  will click, and then they'll click on the ads." You know what I mean?

It was, like,  very black and white, right? So,   um, I'm very deliberate with that. Um, and I,  I guess I just want to make a point here about,   you know what, Dan, I know you talk about so much,  which is meditation. When you meditate regularly,   you're developing the awareness and the ability  to be, um, very, uh, sorry, what was the word? Um, when you meditate, you develop the  awareness that you need to have the ability   not to be taken in by whatever it is, whether it's  headlines or the social media app or whatever.   So the more you meditate, the more you  create that awareness and the f- the,   the freedom to make the choice that you need.  And that's what's so beautiful about it and   the message that you spread, Dan, because, um, I  really have found myself, that as absolutely key.

I mean, I've been-- I'm very regular with  my meditation practice, no matter how I   feel. Like this morning I was meditating,  and I was feeling not great during it,   and I was like, "I'm here and I'm meditating.  I'm with this," whatever it is, you know?   Um, but I find that absolutely key to  being able to then make the right choices. Not that I don't slip sometimes. Of course I do.   But even when I'm slipping,  I'm aware that I'm slipping. Dan Harris: Yes. No, I, I'm obviously  a big fan of meditation.

I, uh, I do   think it is exactly what you said. It  is a way to train attention. Um, and,   uh, it's very powerful in, in  that regard. I, I-- Over time,   my views have evolved in part b- as a result  of hosting this podcast for now 10 years plus. Um, and Ethan and I were talking before we started  rolling about, uh, the, the research that shows   that rather than presenting people, you know,  uh, making a dogmatic case to, to people that   there's one thing you should do to take care of  yourself, it's actually more effective to present,   um, a toolkit.

And so I often talk about, um, uh,  presenting people with a menu, not a to-do list. Mm. And, um, uh, and I f- I find that, you  know, a, a, a much-- It feels better in my   body to r- to, to give people a bunch of things  they can do and let them, let them choose. Um,   speaking of you, Ethan, let's, let's go to  you for, uh, tip number nine. Um, and, uh,   so I mentioned before your first book, um, uh, was  called "Chatter," the second was called "Shift." Uh, and we've talked a little bit  about shifting your attention,   uh, when you, um, are in the grips of a  powerful emotion and, and, um- You know,   it's not the time to, to fully feel it.

Um, can  you-- y- y- you, you also argue that that kind of,   um, strategic avoidance is sometimes, uh,  the right move and, and not a weakness. Can you, uh, say more about that? Ethan Kross: Yeah, we have this,  um, very interesting tendency in   our culture to throw the baby out with  the bathwater. That is, we, we, we,   um, overgeneralize, and so that pertains to this  concept of avoidance. When I first got into this   business, and I'm sure Emma has had the same  experience, um, I get to grads- grad school,   avoidance is synonymous with the worst possible  thing you could do for your emotional life.

And why is that assumption prevalent? Because  it is true that if you chronically avoid things,   the outcomes are really grim across the board.  If you have a simple decisional, every time I am   triggered in some way, I'm just gonna suppress,  repress, distract, things don't work out very   well. But that's an extreme case of a coping style  where you are doing this one thing all the time. We also possess the ability to be  strategic with our attention. In fact,   that's one of the beautiful things of the human  brain.

We can flit our attention back and forth,   and it turns out there's a lot of  research which shows that the ability to,   to divert your attention away from  something that's bothering you for   a while and then come back to it, that  can actually be really, really useful. And I'll give you a very concrete example. It's  one that I have benefited from numerous times   in my life. I will every, oh, I don't know,  seven to 10 days get an email that provokes   me. I read the email, and, you know, it's,  it's, it's either anger , you know, followed   by some inner self-talk filled - like, that  sounds almost like a Robert De Niro character.

Um, or maybe it's anxiety provoking. And  in a former life, uh, or, and I have,   I lapse sometimes, I, I might respond immediately,   or I can force myself to push the email  aside. I have this beautiful snooze button   in my email browser that actually takes it out  of my inbox, so it's no longer a visual cue,   and I don't put it-- I don't set it to come back  until the next day or sometimes two days, right? And when the email comes back, I am now  approaching it from an entirely different   point of view.

That is a case that speaks to the  strategic value of strategic attention deployment   or being strategic with your avoidance.  So I like to always invite people to,   um, play around with this idea, right?  And so sometimes it, you-- sometimes   you can't actually avoid something that is  bothering you for even a short period of time. It's so hot, if you will, that you can't  distract productively. If that's the case,   like no problem, you have another two dozen tools  that you could bring to bear to deal with that   kind of circumstance.

But many of the emotional  curveballs that we are thrown in life, we can   take some time away from and then come back, and  that's a helpful tactic to have in your toolbox. Dan Harris: Agree. Agree. Um, let's get to the  10th tip in the interest of time here. Um, and,   and to me, and I'll be interested  to hear if you two agree, to me,   this may be the most powerful, um, and it is  to lean on your relationships as a way to,   uh, regulate your emotions.

Emma, let  me, let me start with, with you on this. Emma Seppälä: Yeah, we know, you know, that  after food and shelter, our greatest need is for   positive social relationships. In particular,  we need to feel safe, seen, heard, valued,   appreciated. I mean, that is so basic, whether  you're an infant or you're, you know, 99, um,   we really need that. When, when they're positive,  when they're supportive, when they're accepting,   um, that is, that is really powerful, and  it's, it's your relationship with, with people. For some people, it might be relationship  with animals, um, and for others might even be   relationships with nature.

And in fact, all three  could be part of someone's toolkit. You know,   we know, for example, that when you go out into  nature, it reduces your anxiety in minutes,   um, increases well-being. It even  increases citizenship behavior. So there is something so profound about that  communion with the other, assuming it's a   positive other, of course, um, whether it's, you  know, human, whether it's animal, whether it's,   um, the natural world, and, and that--  I, I love that you're ending on this. Dan Harris: Ethan, you, you talk about, uh, doing  something you call an emotional advisor audit.

What does that mean? Ethan Kross: Um, it means thinking about  who the people are in your life that you   go to for support when you're struggling. Uh,  I couldn't agree w- more with both of you. Um,   other people are one of the greatest  resources that we possess when it comes   to our emotional lives, which means our lives  more generally, 'cause we're emotional creatures. But they can also be tremendous  liabilities. You know, I, I often have this,   um, fun experience. I'll, I'll  just ask people in a group like,   "So how many of you think that other people  are a tremendous asset in your emotional   life?" Every hand goes up.

All right, one  more question for you before I get to you. How many of you think that other people can be a  tremendous liability in your emotional life? Every   hand goes up. So what's the deal? Uh, the deal is  that the right kinds of relationships, the right   kind of people can be a c- total game changer for  helping extricate you from the bowels of chatter   despair or whatever phrase you wanna call it  when you're descending down the rabbit hole. But even the, like, well-intentioned support  providers can sometimes make things worse.   So the audit I like to give people is think about,  like, list the names of the people that you go to   for support.

I want you to actually write those  names down. And then for every person, I want you   to ask yourself, when you go to them, do they  do the following two things in this sequence? Do they first and foremost, first and foremost,   uh, connect with you emotionally, uh,  empathize, validate, normalize your experience,   just listen and learn about what you're going  through? Then once they have a sense of that   and you feel like you've had the opportunity to  connect with them and, and really release this,   do they then start working with you to help you  reframe this, to broaden your perspective, to   ultimately allow you to reach a sense  of closure that we need to move on?

The people who do both of those  things for you in that sequence,   they are your emotional advisors. They form  the foundation of your advisory board. Now,   if you have people on your list who don't meet  both of, uh, those criteria, I give people two   choices. First, I pass around red Sharpies  and I say, "You can cross them off the list. They're gone." And you know, I, I, I joke,  that doesn't mean they're out of your life.   It means maybe just don't go to them for  emotional support because oftentimes the   people just get us to co-ruminate.  They just ask us questions about what   we're feeling in ways that make  the situation a whole lot worse.

The other choice, and the one I hope people  take me up on, is to educate our networks   about how to be a great support provider. What  I've just described is grounded in decades of,   of scientific knowledge. Like, we have a  roadmap for how to help other people. And,   um, you know, I, I, I can speak from experience. Before I became familiar with this work, I didn't  know how to help someone else when they called me   for, for support. Like, I remember someone once  called me, someone passed away, and I was like,   "Oh, I'm so sorry.

Ugh, I, um, I'm really-- I'm  sorry. Sounds terrible. What can I do to help?" I,   I didn't, I didn't know what else to  do, how to guide that conversation. I don't-- I very rarely find myself  in that situation now because I have   this science-based roadmap, and it's  an easy one we can give to everyone. Dan Harris: What do you say, what do you  say if somebody calls you and t- tells you   there's been a death in the family? What  is the, what is the right thing to say?

Ethan Kross: The, the, the first thing to say is,   um, you know, I, I, I tell them, I do start  with a sorry, so that's a, an old trick. But then I, I, I ask them to just, you know,  tell me about how they're feeling and, and,   and what's happening, what's going on, and, and  I just allow them to start working through that   with me. And, uh, sometimes that's all we do  on that call, but sometimes they'll voice,   uh, a desire to try to get past that.  Um, and then we start broaching that.

Um, and I'll, and I'll at times shift the  conversation from just talking about how we're   feeling to, "Well, all right, let's, you know,  let's try to look at this bigger picture. You've   got, you know... They've had a wonderful  life." Right? So there are ways of gently   starting to try to nudge the conversation  in that perspective-broadening direction. Sometimes that happens over a few calls, though. Emma Seppälä: When we help others, it helps  us, and I think that's a point that we often   forget. But the data shows that when we  live lives that are characterized by a   greater sensitivity to others and more  altruism, or even just the intention   to help or uplift others, it actually  profoundly benefits our own well-being.

And sometimes when we're not feeling well, I  think we can all probably remember a time when   we were feeling stressed or like, "Oh, it's  a terrible day," but somebody else calls us   and they're really having an emergency,  and you show up at their, at their door   or wherever they are and help them. And then if  you think about how you feel, you feel amazing. You feel so energized and positive, and there's  something so profound about that, you know,   being there for others, this compassion that  we don't-- we forget.

And it i- is-- There's   so much data showing how it improves psychological  well-being, physical well-being, even longevity.   And, and the last thing I want to do is I wanna,  you know, on the topic of self-compassion,   um, remind people to watch your TED Talk,  um, Dan, which is so wonderful and such an   incredible example of what self c- compassion can  do for yourself as well as your relationships. Dan Harris: Yes. Grief is a, is a mysterious,  uh, force. Um, okay. We are, uh, we are at time,   but we have made it through, and congratulations  to us.

We have made it through all 10 tips. Um,   and yeah, let me just say personally, even  though I've heard many of these things before,   it is so incredibly helpful to  be reminded because, you know,   you can hear, and I say this a lot, you  can hear really wise strategic advice,   emotional advice, and life just pulls  you back into your habit patterns. And so it is so helpful to be reminded by smart,   um, thoughtful people. So Emma Seppälä and Ethan  Kross, uh, thank you both. Really appreciate it Ethan Kross: Thank you, Dan Harris: Dan.

Thank you, Emma