Why You Should Ignore Most Scientific Studies

Because everything's competing for your Because everything's competing for your attention now, if you're not structuring attention now, if you're not structuring attention now, if you're not structuring your attention, then algorithms are your attention, then algorithms are your attention, then algorithms are going to structure it for you. David going to structure it for you. David going to structure it for you. David Epstein is a New York Times best-selling Epstein is a New York Times best-selling Epstein is a New York Times best-selling author author author >> examining the factors that enable people >> examining the factors that enable people >> examining the factors that enable people to excel in sports, the arts, business, to excel in sports, the arts, business, to excel in sports, the arts, business, science. His TED [music] Talks on science. His TED [music] Talks on science. His TED [music] Talks on performance science have been viewed performance science have been viewed performance science have been viewed more than 11 million times. You're more than 11 million times. You're more than 11 million times. You're somebody who thinks a lot about how we somebody who thinks a lot about how we somebody who thinks a lot about how we can be can be can be better. I have now almost 20 years of better. I have now almost 20 years of better. I have now almost 20 years of experience in [music] in in vetting experience in [music] in in vetting experience in [music] in in vetting studies. If I think there's some studies. If I think there's some studies. If I think there's some misperception out there, I'm kind of misperception out there, I'm kind of misperception out there, I'm kind of obsessive about wanting to to change the obsessive about wanting to to change the obsessive about wanting to to change the narrative. You may think that your brain narrative. You may think that your brain narrative. You may think that your brain is made for [music] thinking, but it's is made for [music] thinking, but it's is made for [music] thinking, but it's actually made for preventing you from actually made for preventing you from actually made for preventing you from having to think whenever possible. We having to think whenever possible. We having to think whenever possible. We spend the most time and energy on the spend the most time and energy on the spend the most time and energy on the least important decisions because we're least important decisions because we're least important decisions because we're having trouble telling the difference having trouble telling the difference having trouble telling the difference between the options. What we often need between the options. What we often need between the options. What we often need to do is clarify our priorities. to do is clarify our priorities. to do is clarify our priorities. >> [music] >> [music] >> [music] >> For our productivity, for our sense of >> For our productivity, for our sense of >> For our productivity, for our sense of well-being, we have to have constraints well-being, we have to have constraints well-being, we have to have constraints and boundaries. And that's hard, but and boundaries. And that's hard, but and boundaries. And that's hard, but more important in this kind of more important in this kind of more important in this kind of information overload, infinite choice information overload, infinite choice information overload, infinite choice world that we're living in now. world that we're living in now. world that we're living in now. David, so great to see you. So excited David, so great to see you. So excited David, so great to see you. So excited to have you back on the show. It's been to have you back on the show. It's been to have you back on the show. It's been a handful of years. You're on the a handful of years. You're on the a handful of years. You're on the precipice of releasing this fantastic precipice of releasing this fantastic precipice of releasing this fantastic new book. Congratulations. new book. Congratulations. new book. Congratulations. >> Thank you. And I wanted to start with >> Thank you. And I wanted to start with >> Thank you. And I wanted to start with kind of how I think of you. I think of kind of how I think of you. I think of kind of how I think of you. I think of you as an athlete, of course, this track you as an athlete, of course, this track you as an athlete, of course, this track and field athlete, this lifelong runner, and field athlete, this lifelong runner, and field athlete, this lifelong runner, a writer, a scientist, a thought leader, a writer, a scientist, a thought leader, a writer, a scientist, a thought leader, very much in the tradition of other very much in the tradition of other very much in the tradition of other authors like Malcolm Gladwell, perhaps, authors like Malcolm Gladwell, perhaps, authors like Malcolm Gladwell, perhaps, Adam Grant, Daniel Pink. And you come up Adam Grant, Daniel Pink. And you come up Adam Grant, Daniel Pink. And you come up with these positions that put you at with these positions that put you at with these positions that put you at odds with modern productivity culture. odds with modern productivity culture. odds with modern productivity culture. The most famous of which is you upending The most famous of which is you upending The most famous of which is you upending the 10,000-hour rule that pitted you the 10,000-hour rule that pitted you the 10,000-hour rule that pitted you mano a mano against Malcolm Gladwell. mano a mano against Malcolm Gladwell. mano a mano against Malcolm Gladwell. This sort of match quality grit versus This sort of match quality grit versus This sort of match quality grit versus fit thing that fit thing that fit thing that you know, kind of made you an antagonist you know, kind of made you an antagonist you know, kind of made you an antagonist Angela Duckworth. How do you think about Angela Duckworth. How do you think about Angela Duckworth. How do you think about your work and when somebody asks you at your work and when somebody asks you at your work and when somebody asks you at a cocktail party like, you know, what do a cocktail party like, you know, what do a cocktail party like, you know, what do you do? Like, how do you answer that you do? Like, how do you answer that you do? Like, how do you answer that question? I usually start asking them question? I usually start asking them question? I usually start asking them about what they do instead because I'm about what they do instead because I'm about what they do instead because I'm more curious about that than telling more curious about that than telling more curious about that than telling them what I do, but I think about it as them what I do, but I think about it as them what I do, but I think about it as I obsess over I obsess over I obsess over mistranslations mistranslations mistranslations or misperception of data in scientific or misperception of data in scientific or misperception of data in scientific research and then work to try to either research and then work to try to either research and then work to try to either correct or or temper the correct or or temper the correct or or temper the repurcussions of those repurcussions of those repurcussions of those misperceptions basically. So, when I see misperceptions basically. So, when I see misperceptions basically. So, when I see something, I follow a ton of research. something, I follow a ton of research. something, I follow a ton of research. You know, I transitioned from training You know, I transitioned from training You know, I transitioned from training to be a scientist to being a writer. to be a scientist to being a writer. to be a scientist to being a writer. And I'm like a dog with a bone when I And I'm like a dog with a bone when I And I'm like a dog with a bone when I get onto some research that I see is get onto some research that I see is get onto some research that I see is becoming very popular and is being becoming very popular and is being becoming very popular and is being completely misinterpreted. Um completely misinterpreted. Um completely misinterpreted. Um and I should say with that happened with and I should say with that happened with and I should say with that happened with both Angela and Malcolm, but they are both Angela and Malcolm, but they are both Angela and Malcolm, but they are like like like two of the most wonderful people in my two of the most wonderful people in my two of the most wonderful people in my life now. So, these were life now. So, these were life now. So, these were very generative relationships based on very generative relationships based on very generative relationships based on disagreement. disagreement. disagreement. >> Yeah, so you had this very famous kind >> Yeah, so you had this very famous kind >> Yeah, so you had this very famous kind of debate with Malcolm where you guys of debate with Malcolm where you guys of debate with Malcolm where you guys were pitted against each other on this were pitted against each other on this were pitted against each other on this 10,000 hour rule idea. But, you know, 10,000 hour rule idea. But, you know, 10,000 hour rule idea. But, you know, the TLDR of that is that in the the TLDR of that is that in the the TLDR of that is that in the aftermath of that, you guys became aftermath of that, you guys became aftermath of that, you guys became friends and running buddies. And if friends and running buddies. And if friends and running buddies. And if there's one thing about Malcolm is like there's one thing about Malcolm is like there's one thing about Malcolm is like he's fine with being wrong. Like, he's he's fine with being wrong. Like, he's he's fine with being wrong. Like, he's like, it's cool. Like, ideas change and like, it's cool. Like, ideas change and like, it's cool. Like, ideas change and you evolve and he's not really hung up you evolve and he's not really hung up you evolve and he's not really hung up on that. No, not at all. So, the first on that. No, not at all. So, the first on that. No, not at all. So, the first the first time we ever met was for this the first time we ever met was for this the first time we ever met was for this debate at MIT and they brought us back debate at MIT and they brought us back debate at MIT and they brought us back five years later. five years later. five years later. And at the end And at the end And at the end you know, I we were we were talking you know, I we were we were talking you know, I we were we were talking about how our minds had changed since about how our minds had changed since about how our minds had changed since our first meeting and he said, our first meeting and he said, our first meeting and he said, "Oh, you you you convinced me." We were "Oh, you you you convinced me." We were "Oh, you you you convinced me." We were because I was arguing about that the because I was arguing about that the because I was arguing about that the science actually shows early science actually shows early science actually shows early specialization is not the typical path specialization is not the typical path specialization is not the typical path to becoming elite, the 10,000 hours and to becoming elite, the 10,000 hours and to becoming elite, the 10,000 hours and usually it's early sampling where you usually it's early sampling where you usually it's early sampling where you gain these broader toolbox and learn gain these broader toolbox and learn gain these broader toolbox and learn where you fit and things like that. And where you fit and things like that. And where you fit and things like that. And he said, "You convinced me. I think I he said, "You convinced me. I think I he said, "You convinced me. I think I made this error of conflation where made this error of conflation where made this error of conflation where with the idea that it takes a lot of with the idea that it takes a lot of with the idea that it takes a lot of practice to become great, which is true, practice to become great, which is true, practice to become great, which is true, but I conflated that with the idea that but I conflated that with the idea that but I conflated that with the idea that implies necessary early hyper implies necessary early hyper implies necessary early hyper specialization, which I now think is specialization, which I now think is specialization, which I now think is false. So, we ended up kind of on the false. So, we ended up kind of on the false. So, we ended up kind of on the same ground. And I think he actually set same ground. And I think he actually set same ground. And I think he actually set a great model for me. a great model for me. a great model for me. After some years of us So, we we ran After some years of us So, we we ran After some years of us So, we we ran together the first time the day after together the first time the day after together the first time the day after our debate because he kind of said, when our debate because he kind of said, when our debate because he kind of said, when we were coming off stage, "You got me we were coming off stage, "You got me we were coming off stage, "You got me with some of that data. Like, why don't with some of that data. Like, why don't with some of that data. Like, why don't we go run together and we'll talk about we go run together and we'll talk about we go run together and we'll talk about this?" And several years later, I said, this?" And several years later, I said, this?" And several years later, I said, "You know, now we're good friends, "You know, now we're good friends, "You know, now we're good friends, you could have just crushed me. You you could have just crushed me. You you could have just crushed me. You know, I I just didn't have the know, I I just didn't have the know, I I just didn't have the professional capital at that point." And professional capital at that point." And professional capital at that point." And he said, "Yeah, but I have the luxury of he said, "Yeah, but I have the luxury of he said, "Yeah, but I have the luxury of learning from my critics." And that set learning from my critics." And that set learning from my critics." And that set like such a beacon for me to think about like such a beacon for me to think about like such a beacon for me to think about when you have earnest critics, not just when you have earnest critics, not just when you have earnest critics, not just someone like ranting at you on the someone like ranting at you on the someone like ranting at you on the internet, but earnest critics, is what internet, but earnest critics, is what internet, but earnest critics, is what can I learn from them to be better. And can I learn from them to be better. And can I learn from them to be better. And he became kind of a even though we still he became kind of a even though we still he became kind of a even though we still have disagreements about plenty of have disagreements about plenty of have disagreements about plenty of things, but he became a role model for things, but he became a role model for things, but he became a role model for me in that sense. There's something very me in that sense. There's something very me in that sense. There's something very high integrity about that and and high integrity about that and and high integrity about that and and somewhat obvious also, like if we can somewhat obvious also, like if we can somewhat obvious also, like if we can just hold our ideas a little more just hold our ideas a little more just hold our ideas a little more loosely and be open to being proven loosely and be open to being proven loosely and be open to being proven wrong and when we're proven wrong, like wrong and when we're proven wrong, like wrong and when we're proven wrong, like kind of embrace that with curiosity. kind of embrace that with curiosity. kind of embrace that with curiosity. That engenders trust over time and yet That engenders trust over time and yet That engenders trust over time and yet when you kind of canvas culture, like when you kind of canvas culture, like when you kind of canvas culture, like people don't generally do that. They people don't generally do that. They people don't generally do that. They doubling down even in the face of you doubling down even in the face of you doubling down even in the face of you know, incontrovertible evidence that know, incontrovertible evidence that know, incontrovertible evidence that suggests that they're wrong. And there suggests that they're wrong. And there suggests that they're wrong. And there is this idea that if you change your is this idea that if you change your is this idea that if you change your mind or if you're proven wrong, that mind or if you're proven wrong, that mind or if you're proven wrong, that like there's something bad about that like there's something bad about that like there's something bad about that that that erodes trust, but in fact it's that that erodes trust, but in fact it's that that erodes trust, but in fact it's quite the opposite. quite the opposite. quite the opposite. >> And I'd say Malcolm's like the >> And I'd say Malcolm's like the >> And I'd say Malcolm's like the embodiment of that phrase, strong ideas embodiment of that phrase, strong ideas embodiment of that phrase, strong ideas loosely held. Like, he will put loosely held. Like, he will put loosely held. Like, he will put something forth as if it's like something forth as if it's like something forth as if it's like absolutely he's positive, but then if absolutely he's positive, but then if absolutely he's positive, but then if you bring something that contradicts it, you bring something that contradicts it, you bring something that contradicts it, he'll change, right? He'll be like, he'll change, right? He'll be like, he'll change, right? He'll be like, "Yeah, oh yeah, I was wrong about that." "Yeah, oh yeah, I was wrong about that." "Yeah, oh yeah, I was wrong about that." >> Next, moving on, you know. And that like >> Next, moving on, you know. And that like >> Next, moving on, you know. And that like all all this research I've written about all all this research I've written about all all this research I've written about about people who have good judgment and about people who have good judgment and about people who have good judgment and make good forecasts, you know, about make good forecasts, you know, about make good forecasts, you know, about things in the future. One of the things in the future. One of the things in the future. One of the absolute absolute absolute uh uh uh common characteristics of them is many common characteristics of them is many common characteristics of them is many small updates. Like they're constantly small updates. Like they're constantly small updates. Like they're constantly flip-flopping and changing. flip-flopping and changing. flip-flopping and changing. But it seems like sometimes in the But it seems like sometimes in the But it seems like sometimes in the public sphere, you get punished for public sphere, you get punished for public sphere, you get punished for flip-flopping, even though it is one of flip-flopping, even though it is one of flip-flopping, even though it is one of the hallmarks of people with good the hallmarks of people with good the hallmarks of people with good judgment. Somebody judgment. Somebody judgment. Somebody I don't know if it's you, but somebody I don't know if it's you, but somebody I don't know if it's you, but somebody who kind of writes books like you do who kind of writes books like you do who kind of writes books like you do should write a book about this. Yeah, should write a book about this. Yeah, should write a book about this. Yeah, there there is there there is there there is >> Cuz it is a real cultural problem. Yeah, >> Cuz it is a real cultural problem. Yeah, >> Cuz it is a real cultural problem. Yeah, yeah, I mean, I wrote a chapter about it yeah, I mean, I wrote a chapter about it yeah, I mean, I wrote a chapter about it in Range about this good judgment. And in Range about this good judgment. And in Range about this good judgment. And also Philip Tetlock, the psychologist, also Philip Tetlock, the psychologist, also Philip Tetlock, the psychologist, has written about some of this. But I has written about some of this. But I has written about some of this. But I think what remains to be done is putting think what remains to be done is putting think what remains to be done is putting it in this context of kind of the it in this context of kind of the it in this context of kind of the information environment today, where it information environment today, where it information environment today, where it feels like you'll you'll really be feels like you'll you'll really be feels like you'll you'll really be punished and people become so punished and people become so punished and people become so reactionary that they they double down reactionary that they they double down reactionary that they they double down cuz that's so easy to do, right? Like cuz that's so easy to do, right? Like cuz that's so easy to do, right? Like somebody, if you put something out in somebody, if you put something out in somebody, if you put something out in the public, somebody on the internet is the public, somebody on the internet is the public, somebody on the internet is going to attack you in a going to attack you in a going to attack you in a horrible way. Like in a way where horrible way. Like in a way where horrible way. Like in a way where prior to the internet, you maybe would prior to the internet, you maybe would prior to the internet, you maybe would have been attacked twice in your life have been attacked twice in your life have been attacked twice in your life and now you might get it 10,000 times a and now you might get it 10,000 times a and now you might get it 10,000 times a week. And I think that just makes people week. And I think that just makes people week. And I think that just makes people really, really really, really really, really reactionary and and difficult to kind of reactionary and and difficult to kind of reactionary and and difficult to kind of Mhm. change, right? They just want to Mhm. change, right? They just want to Mhm. change, right? They just want to punch back. Like they feel hurt and they punch back. Like they feel hurt and they punch back. Like they feel hurt and they want to hurt somebody back instead of want to hurt somebody back instead of want to hurt somebody back instead of actually looking for the the right idea. actually looking for the the right idea. actually looking for the the right idea. >> Yeah, and what are the long-term >> Yeah, and what are the long-term >> Yeah, and what are the long-term implications of that on, you know, human implications of that on, you know, human implications of that on, you know, human psychology and just culture, politics, psychology and just culture, politics, psychology and just culture, politics, etc. when we're in that fear stance? etc. when we're in that fear stance? etc. when we're in that fear stance? Like nobody wants to say anything Like nobody wants to say anything Like nobody wants to say anything because they don't want to be criticized because they don't want to be criticized because they don't want to be criticized because of the nature of social media because of the nature of social media because of the nature of social media and just and just and just you know, having a voice in the public you know, having a voice in the public you know, having a voice in the public square. I mean, again to go to Malcolm, square. I mean, again to go to Malcolm, square. I mean, again to go to Malcolm, one amazing thing was one amazing thing was one amazing thing was I was attacking his most famous idea I was attacking his most famous idea I was attacking his most famous idea and he was still willing to change on and he was still willing to change on and he was still willing to change on it, where there was a British author who it, where there was a British author who it, where there was a British author who who who who wrote kind of a version of the same wrote kind of a version of the same wrote kind of a version of the same thing in the UK that was very popular. thing in the UK that was very popular. thing in the UK that was very popular. And when I was on British radio with And when I was on British radio with And when I was on British radio with him, he just absolutely came after me. him, he just absolutely came after me. him, he just absolutely came after me. Like there was no maybe you have some Like there was no maybe you have some Like there was no maybe you have some points here. It was points here. It was points here. It was you're wrong and even if you were right, you're wrong and even if you were right, you're wrong and even if you were right, it would be the wrong message to send, it would be the wrong message to send, it would be the wrong message to send, right? So, I kind of got to see these right? So, I kind of got to see these right? So, I kind of got to see these two different avenues where one person two different avenues where one person two different avenues where one person who because he had published this and who because he had published this and who because he had published this and become famous for it become famous for it become famous for it was just like was just like was just like holding on to it with a death grip, you holding on to it with a death grip, you holding on to it with a death grip, you know? know? know? >> So, in other words, not only is he >> So, in other words, not only is he >> So, in other words, not only is he holding on to being right he's also holding on to being right he's also holding on to being right he's also saying at the same time like even if I'm saying at the same time like even if I'm saying at the same time like even if I'm wrong it doesn't matter cuz it's like wrong it doesn't matter cuz it's like wrong it doesn't matter cuz it's like better if this was true. And and and I I better if this was true. And and and I I better if this was true. And and and I I >> [laughter] >> [laughter] >> [laughter] >> and I think that's really presumptuous >> and I think that's really presumptuous >> and I think that's really presumptuous cuz my take is always cuz my take is always cuz my take is always what what what kind of differences between people are kind of differences between people are kind of differences between people are important uh for outcomes we care about important uh for outcomes we care about important uh for outcomes we care about not just folklore but which are which not just folklore but which are which not just folklore but which are which are real, which matter for outcomes we are real, which matter for outcomes we are real, which matter for outcomes we care about and then how do we use those care about and then how do we use those care about and then how do we use those things to get the best outcomes for all things to get the best outcomes for all things to get the best outcomes for all people and sometimes that might involve people and sometimes that might involve people and sometimes that might involve information that people don't information that people don't information that people don't necessarily like but I still think it's necessarily like but I still think it's necessarily like but I still think it's important to do. important to do. important to do. And in terms of science writing And in terms of science writing And in terms of science writing generally I mean generally I mean generally I mean right? I have a I have a new book coming right? I have a I have a new book coming right? I have a I have a new book coming out and out and out and something in there I mean I have a something in there I mean I have a something in there I mean I have a chapter in there about how much chapter in there about how much chapter in there about how much scientific research is wrong, right? And scientific research is wrong, right? And scientific research is wrong, right? And and I learned some of this because when and I learned some of this because when and I learned some of this because when I was a grad student I did some I was a grad student I did some I was a grad student I did some inappropriate statistical analysis. inappropriate statistical analysis. inappropriate statistical analysis. And I I had an independent fact I And I I had an independent fact I And I I had an independent fact I fact-checked it. I hired independent fact-checked it. I hired independent fact-checked it. I hired independent fact-checkers and yet something in there fact-checkers and yet something in there fact-checkers and yet something in there will not be right. Whether it's because will not be right. Whether it's because will not be right. Whether it's because I made a mistake, I framed something I made a mistake, I framed something I made a mistake, I framed something wrong, it it's just science that doesn't wrong, it it's just science that doesn't wrong, it it's just science that doesn't replicate. I I did a tons of vetting. replicate. I I did a tons of vetting. replicate. I I did a tons of vetting. You know, I had scientists read it. I You know, I had scientists read it. I You know, I had scientists read it. I had my fact-checker read it. I have now had my fact-checker read it. I have now had my fact-checker read it. I have now almost 20 years of experience in in in almost 20 years of experience in in in almost 20 years of experience in in in vetting studies. vetting studies. vetting studies. But if you're going to write about a lot But if you're going to write about a lot But if you're going to write about a lot of science, I think you have to go in of science, I think you have to go in of science, I think you have to go in knowing something here is not going to knowing something here is not going to knowing something here is not going to hold up the way that I thought it would. hold up the way that I thought it would. hold up the way that I thought it would. I just don't know what it is yet. I just don't know what it is yet. I just don't know what it is yet. >> Mhm. And then be ready to to correct >> Mhm. And then be ready to to correct >> Mhm. And then be ready to to correct that when you find that when you find that when you find >> Yeah, in the new book you use the >> Yeah, in the new book you use the >> Yeah, in the new book you use the example of this Cornell uh nutrition example of this Cornell uh nutrition example of this Cornell uh nutrition researcher and researcher and researcher and you kind of canvas, you know, the you kind of canvas, you know, the you kind of canvas, you know, the problematic nature of like the you know, problematic nature of like the you know, problematic nature of like the you know, developing the hypothesis in advance and developing the hypothesis in advance and developing the hypothesis in advance and in retrospect. I mean, maybe it's worth in retrospect. I mean, maybe it's worth in retrospect. I mean, maybe it's worth kind of like discussing that right now. kind of like discussing that right now. kind of like discussing that right now. >> Yeah, so this was a Cornell researcher >> Yeah, so this was a Cornell researcher >> Yeah, so this was a Cornell researcher named was Brian Wansink who was the the named was Brian Wansink who was the the named was Brian Wansink who was the the most arguably the most famous nutrition most arguably the most famous nutrition most arguably the most famous nutrition researcher in the world at at one time. researcher in the world at at one time. researcher in the world at at one time. He did these really fascinating studies, He did these really fascinating studies, He did these really fascinating studies, the most famous one being the so-called the most famous one being the so-called the most famous one being the so-called bottomless bowl study where people were bottomless bowl study where people were bottomless bowl study where people were told to eat as much soup as they wanted, told to eat as much soup as they wanted, told to eat as much soup as they wanted, but some people had a there was a hidden but some people had a there was a hidden but some people had a there was a hidden tube under one of the bowls that was tube under one of the bowls that was tube under one of the bowls that was refilling it. And the finding was that refilling it. And the finding was that refilling it. And the finding was that those people ate much more. The idea those people ate much more. The idea those people ate much more. The idea being like we don't know when we're being like we don't know when we're being like we don't know when we're actually full. actually full. actually full. >> [snorts] >> [snorts] >> [snorts] >> Fast forward a few years and basically >> Fast forward a few years and basically >> Fast forward a few years and basically his his whole life's work was retracted his his whole life's work was retracted his his whole life's work was retracted more or less. more or less. more or less. Retracted or at least corrected. And Retracted or at least corrected. And Retracted or at least corrected. And what happened was he was doing what's what happened was he was doing what's what happened was he was doing what's called harking, which is stands for called harking, which is stands for called harking, which is stands for hypothesizing after the results are hypothesizing after the results are hypothesizing after the results are known, meaning he would have some known, meaning he would have some known, meaning he would have some hypothesis for what he wanted to test. hypothesis for what he wanted to test. hypothesis for what he wanted to test. You know, like that people will eat more You know, like that people will eat more You know, like that people will eat more if their snacks come in a larger bowl or if their snacks come in a larger bowl or if their snacks come in a larger bowl or something like that. Or if they're something like that. Or if they're something like that. Or if they're watching an action movie versus a watching an action movie versus a watching an action movie versus a romance. romance. romance. >> Mhm. >> Mhm. >> Mhm. And maybe that wouldn't work out. And And maybe that wouldn't work out. And And maybe that wouldn't work out. And he'd say he'd say he'd say bummer. Like my hypothesis didn't work bummer. Like my hypothesis didn't work bummer. Like my hypothesis didn't work out, but then he had all this data. So, out, but then he had all this data. So, out, but then he had all this data. So, well, let's go look through the data to well, let's go look through the data to well, let's go look through the data to actually see some correlations that do actually see some correlations that do actually see some correlations that do hold up. Maybe it's uh hold up. Maybe it's uh hold up. Maybe it's uh well, if you are watching the action well, if you are watching the action well, if you are watching the action movie and your snacks are in a big bowl movie and your snacks are in a big bowl movie and your snacks are in a big bowl after 9:00 p.m., then you eat more, after 9:00 p.m., then you eat more, after 9:00 p.m., then you eat more, right? They'd add all these qualifiers. right? They'd add all these qualifiers. right? They'd add all these qualifiers. It's like when you watch an NFL game and It's like when you watch an NFL game and It's like when you watch an NFL game and you hear, you know, the Chiefs are you hear, you know, the Chiefs are you hear, you know, the Chiefs are undefeated at home when Taylor Swift is undefeated at home when Taylor Swift is undefeated at home when Taylor Swift is in the audience and they're wearing in the audience and they're wearing in the audience and they're wearing their alternate jerseys or something. their alternate jerseys or something. their alternate jerseys or something. You can be sure that somebody first You can be sure that somebody first You can be sure that somebody first looked for a simpler stat. It didn't looked for a simpler stat. It didn't looked for a simpler stat. It didn't hold up. And then they went data hold up. And then they went data hold up. And then they went data dredging basically to look for dredging basically to look for dredging basically to look for associations. The problem is associations. The problem is associations. The problem is when you do that, you're almost ensuring when you do that, you're almost ensuring when you do that, you're almost ensuring that you're going to find false that you're going to find false that you're going to find false positives. Cuz you're essentially doing positives. Cuz you're essentially doing positives. Cuz you're essentially doing an infinite number of tests just looking an infinite number of tests just looking an infinite number of tests just looking for something that'll work. for something that'll work. for something that'll work. >> So that you can reverse engineer almost >> So that you can reverse engineer almost >> So that you can reverse engineer almost to you know, confirmation of your your to you know, confirmation of your your to you know, confirmation of your your bias towards a certain hypothesis. bias towards a certain hypothesis. bias towards a certain hypothesis. >> And and you may not even know that >> And and you may not even know that >> And and you may not even know that you're doing it, right? So what you have you're doing it, right? So what you have you're doing it, right? So what you have to do is set your hypothesis ahead of to do is set your hypothesis ahead of to do is set your hypothesis ahead of time and stick to it, right? This is the time and stick to it, right? This is the time and stick to it, right? This is the problem is what's called researcher problem is what's called researcher problem is what's called researcher degrees of freedom. Having too much degrees of freedom. Having too much degrees of freedom. Having too much freedom in to to retroactively fit a freedom in to to retroactively fit a freedom in to to retroactively fit a hypothesis to the data. hypothesis to the data. hypothesis to the data. And it it's this has led to some kind of And it it's this has led to some kind of And it it's this has led to some kind of a sadly funny story that some scientists a sadly funny story that some scientists a sadly funny story that some scientists call the everything in your fridge call the everything in your fridge call the everything in your fridge causes and prevents cancer study. This causes and prevents cancer study. This causes and prevents cancer study. This study that looked at all study that looked at all study that looked at all all of the research done on various all of the research done on various all of the research done on various foods and showed that almost everything foods and showed that almost everything foods and showed that almost everything has been found both to cause and prevent has been found both to cause and prevent has been found both to cause and prevent cancer. Except bacon which sadly was cancer. Except bacon which sadly was cancer. Except bacon which sadly was only found to cause cancer. So only found to cause cancer. So only found to cause cancer. So Yeah, this is uh you know, in a macro Yeah, this is uh you know, in a macro Yeah, this is uh you know, in a macro sense sense sense uh uh uh when you kind of think about that in the when you kind of think about that in the when you kind of think about that in the context of our eroded context of our eroded context of our eroded um you know, trust in experts and um you know, trust in experts and um you know, trust in experts and institutions is truly problematic and institutions is truly problematic and institutions is truly problematic and just just just because I'm I'm steeped in the the kind because I'm I'm steeped in the the kind because I'm I'm steeped in the the kind of like health and nutrition space. I'm of like health and nutrition space. I'm of like health and nutrition space. I'm not a scientist, but anybody who is not a scientist, but anybody who is not a scientist, but anybody who is interested in that and is scrolling on interested in that and is scrolling on interested in that and is scrolling on social media will find any number of social media will find any number of social media will find any number of like influencers who are cherry-picking like influencers who are cherry-picking like influencers who are cherry-picking whatever study to say whatever. whatever study to say whatever. whatever study to say whatever. >> Yeah. And it just creates mass confusion >> Yeah. And it just creates mass confusion >> Yeah. And it just creates mass confusion and paralysis because essentially to and paralysis because essentially to and paralysis because essentially to your point like everything's toxic, your point like everything's toxic, your point like everything's toxic, everything's going to kill you. And everything's going to kill you. And everything's going to kill you. And there's always some PubMed thing that there's always some PubMed thing that there's always some PubMed thing that somebody can point to to say this is bad somebody can point to to say this is bad somebody can point to to say this is bad or this is good. And it's very reductive or this is good. And it's very reductive or this is good. And it's very reductive and you can't help but think like what and you can't help but think like what and you can't help but think like what was the hypothesis going into this? You was the hypothesis going into this? You was the hypothesis going into this? You know, what were the variables that were know, what were the variables that were know, what were the variables that were controlled for and you know, what were controlled for and you know, what were controlled for and you know, what were the biases of the researchers etc. uh the biases of the researchers etc. uh the biases of the researchers etc. uh that are driving these results. And it that are driving these results. And it that are driving these results. And it just creates this morass of confusion. just creates this morass of confusion. just creates this morass of confusion. Absolutely. I think there are a few few Absolutely. I think there are a few few Absolutely. I think there are a few few good things though. One is good things though. One is good things though. One is this problem this problem this problem which is akin the analogy I use is like which is akin the analogy I use is like which is akin the analogy I use is like a sharpshooter who shoots at a wall a sharpshooter who shoots at a wall a sharpshooter who shoots at a wall and then goes and draws a bull's-eye and then goes and draws a bull's-eye and then goes and draws a bull's-eye around some of the bullets that are around some of the bullets that are around some of the bullets that are grouped. And then then people come in grouped. And then then people come in grouped. And then then people come in later and say wow, what a good shooter. later and say wow, what a good shooter. later and say wow, what a good shooter. But the person was just firing randomly But the person was just firing randomly But the person was just firing randomly and then drawing the bull's-eye around and then drawing the bull's-eye around and then drawing the bull's-eye around it. That's like what's happening with it. That's like what's happening with it. That's like what's happening with some of this science and especially in some of this science and especially in some of this science and especially in nutrition science. nutrition science. nutrition science. The good thing is it's scientists The good thing is it's scientists The good thing is it's scientists themselves who raised these concerns themselves who raised these concerns themselves who raised these concerns sometimes about their own work. Once sometimes about their own work. Once sometimes about their own work. Once that I did this in one occasion as a that I did this in one occasion as a that I did this in one occasion as a grad student not realizing it was a grad student not realizing it was a grad student not realizing it was a problem. I had access to a very powerful problem. I had access to a very powerful problem. I had access to a very powerful statistical program, had a ton of data. statistical program, had a ton of data. statistical program, had a ton of data. Go find me some correlations, right? It Go find me some correlations, right? It Go find me some correlations, right? It didn't occur to me, it's kind of didn't occur to me, it's kind of didn't occur to me, it's kind of counterintuitive that counterintuitive that counterintuitive that looking backward would cause would make looking backward would cause would make looking backward would cause would make you almost assuredly finding false you almost assuredly finding false you almost assuredly finding false positives. positives. positives. But the scientific community raised this But the scientific community raised this But the scientific community raised this and now things are are better, which is and now things are are better, which is and now things are are better, which is why why why in in the book I lead one chapter with in in the book I lead one chapter with in in the book I lead one chapter with this crazy study that makes it look like this crazy study that makes it look like this crazy study that makes it look like in the lead-up to the year 2000 to the in the lead-up to the year 2000 to the in the lead-up to the year 2000 to the millennium, all these dietary supplement millennium, all these dietary supplement millennium, all these dietary supplement and medication studies are producing all and medication studies are producing all and medication studies are producing all these miracles. And then in 2000, bang, these miracles. And then in 2000, bang, these miracles. And then in 2000, bang, everything stops working. It's like, everything stops working. It's like, everything stops working. It's like, what happened? Was there a millennium what happened? Was there a millennium what happened? Was there a millennium bug or something that caused this to bug or something that caused this to bug or something that caused this to stop working? It's no, it's stop working? It's no, it's stop working? It's no, it's that the the funding agency said, you that the the funding agency said, you that the the funding agency said, you have to register your hypothesis have to register your hypothesis have to register your hypothesis beforehand now, so we know what it is. beforehand now, so we know what it is. beforehand now, so we know what it is. And that caused almost all of these And that caused almost all of these And that caused almost all of these studies to stop working. So that So studies to stop working. So that So studies to stop working. So that So science is working better because of it. science is working better because of it. science is working better because of it. So I think So I think So I think working better than ever, so I hope working better than ever, so I hope working better than ever, so I hope trust can be rebuilt. But the the trust can be rebuilt. But the the trust can be rebuilt. But the the influencer point, it's tough to do influencer point, it's tough to do influencer point, it's tough to do anything about that, but I think there's anything about that, but I think there's anything about that, but I think there's some basics that people should be some basics that people should be some basics that people should be equipped with, like equipped with, like equipped with, like small interventions almost never cause small interventions almost never cause small interventions almost never cause huge changes. So when you see studies huge changes. So when you see studies huge changes. So when you see studies that are promising some tiny change that that are promising some tiny change that that are promising some tiny change that leads to some big effect, leads to some big effect, leads to some big effect, very unlikely to hold up in the long very unlikely to hold up in the long very unlikely to hold up in the long run. Big Big effects usually require run. Big Big effects usually require run. Big Big effects usually require large or sustained interventions. large or sustained interventions. large or sustained interventions. And also when they're very particular, And also when they're very particular, And also when they're very particular, like there was a sauna study that I was like there was a sauna study that I was like there was a sauna study that I was criticizing at some point criticizing at some point criticizing at some point where it was like some where it was like some where it was like some cognitive effect, but you had to cognitive effect, but you had to cognitive effect, but you had to do sauna between 9 and 12 times, you do sauna between 9 and 12 times, you do sauna between 9 and 12 times, you know, for at least like certain years know, for at least like certain years know, for at least like certain years during your life. And when you start to during your life. And when you start to during your life. And when you start to see these very particular see these very particular see these very particular requirements for it, that means somebody requirements for it, that means somebody requirements for it, that means somebody almost certainly was like looking how almost certainly was like looking how almost certainly was like looking how they could divide the subject groups in they could divide the subject groups in they could divide the subject groups in the study to to get a positive result. the study to to get a positive result. the study to to get a positive result. It wasn't there in the first place. It wasn't there in the first place. It wasn't there in the first place. Yeah, I mean, I think a lot of it is Yeah, I mean, I think a lot of it is Yeah, I mean, I think a lot of it is over indexing on weak data sets to draw over indexing on weak data sets to draw over indexing on weak data sets to draw conclusions that aren't necessarily conclusions that aren't necessarily conclusions that aren't necessarily supported by the data. Like, that's sort supported by the data. Like, that's sort supported by the data. Like, that's sort of the general kind of like root of a of the general kind of like root of a of the general kind of like root of a lot of these conclusions around lot of these conclusions around lot of these conclusions around outcomes. Like, outcomes. Like, outcomes. Like, small sample sizes, very minimal small sample sizes, very minimal small sample sizes, very minimal positive outcome, but an overemphasis on positive outcome, but an overemphasis on positive outcome, but an overemphasis on the connection between these two things the connection between these two things the connection between these two things to create a video and like make to create a video and like make to create a video and like make everybody engage in a habit change that everybody engage in a habit change that everybody engage in a habit change that isn't really moving the needle. And all isn't really moving the needle. And all isn't really moving the needle. And all of these things are like 1% cherry on of these things are like 1% cherry on of these things are like 1% cherry on top of the Sunday stuff. That's like a top of the Sunday stuff. That's like a top of the Sunday stuff. That's like a whole I'm glad you said that because whole I'm glad you said that because whole I'm glad you said that because that I feel like is a whole that I feel like is a whole that I feel like is a whole ethos or movement that ethos or movement that ethos or movement that And I understand why people get And I understand why people get And I understand why people get attracted to this 1% stuff. Like, let's attracted to this 1% stuff. Like, let's attracted to this 1% stuff. Like, let's say it's true. say it's true. say it's true. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. But while ignoring these fundamentals But while ignoring these fundamentals But while ignoring these fundamentals that account for all of the other stuff, that account for all of the other stuff, that account for all of the other stuff, right? right? right? >> it's like usually it it involves a >> it's like usually it it involves a >> it's like usually it it involves a capsule or some kind of like fun new capsule or some kind of like fun new capsule or some kind of like fun new behavior as opposed to the drudgery of behavior as opposed to the drudgery of behavior as opposed to the drudgery of like, well, you know, go to bed early like, well, you know, go to bed early like, well, you know, go to bed early and and and >> [laughter] >> [laughter] >> [laughter] >> like eat real food and move your body. >> like eat real food and move your body. >> like eat real food and move your body. That's right. And and I mean, I'm for That's right. And and I mean, I'm for That's right. And and I mean, I'm for stuff that motivates people to change, stuff that motivates people to change, stuff that motivates people to change, right? But right? But right? But but it's like but it's like but it's like the fundamentals are the fundamentals the fundamentals are the fundamentals the fundamentals are the fundamentals for for a reason. If you want to be a for for a reason. If you want to be a for for a reason. If you want to be a good runner, you have to run a lot. good runner, you have to run a lot. good runner, you have to run a lot. >> I see this all the time with runners. >> I see this all the time with runners. >> I see this all the time with runners. Like, it's like Like, it's like Like, it's like which of these shoes with the new foam which of these shoes with the new foam which of these shoes with the new foam should I get and and these trying these should I get and and these trying these should I get and and these trying these little things and these dietary little things and these dietary little things and these dietary supplements and supplements and supplements and >> Norwegian method is going to unlock, you >> Norwegian method is going to unlock, you >> Norwegian method is going to unlock, you know, unlimited potential all of a know, unlimited potential all of a know, unlimited potential all of a sudden and this is all you have to do. sudden and this is all you have to do. sudden and this is all you have to do. But it's like first of all, you have to But it's like first of all, you have to But it's like first of all, you have to run consistently and stay injury free run consistently and stay injury free run consistently and stay injury free and and and recover. Like, you have to and and and recover. Like, you have to and and and recover. Like, you have to run and recover. And so, it's like run and recover. And so, it's like run and recover. And so, it's like jumping ahead jumping ahead jumping ahead to get getting the new equipment or the to get getting the new equipment or the to get getting the new equipment or the or the latest fad where you kind of or the latest fad where you kind of or the latest fad where you kind of haven't gone through the basics. It's haven't gone through the basics. It's haven't gone through the basics. It's sort of a dopamine inducing activity sort of a dopamine inducing activity sort of a dopamine inducing activity that is that is that is confused with actually doing something confused with actually doing something confused with actually doing something that's moving you forward. It's a form that's moving you forward. It's a form that's moving you forward. It's a form of analysis paralysis. of analysis paralysis. of analysis paralysis. >> Yeah. Yeah. And and it's I think it's >> Yeah. Yeah. And and it's I think it's >> Yeah. Yeah. And and it's I think it's tough to get away from too. I mean, even tough to get away from too. I mean, even tough to get away from too. I mean, even knowing I don't know about you, but even knowing I don't know about you, but even knowing I don't know about you, but even knowing everything I know, knowing everything I know, knowing everything I know, I I still sometimes if I get fed some I I still sometimes if I get fed some I I still sometimes if I get fed some influencer thing that's giving me some influencer thing that's giving me some influencer thing that's giving me some kind of 1% thing and claiming it's going kind of 1% thing and claiming it's going kind of 1% thing and claiming it's going to change my life, I still sometimes I'm to change my life, I still sometimes I'm to change my life, I still sometimes I'm like a little bit curious and I look like a little bit curious and I look like a little bit curious and I look even knowing what I know cuz it's even knowing what I know cuz it's even knowing what I know cuz it's everywhere, right? So. everywhere, right? So. everywhere, right? So. >> And I'll try these things. I love it, >> And I'll try these things. I love it, >> And I'll try these things. I love it, too. You know what I mean? I'm not going too. You know what I mean? I'm not going too. You know what I mean? I'm not going to the source material and you know, to the source material and you know, to the source material and you know, rifling through it to see its rifling through it to see its rifling through it to see its effectiveness, but you know, as a effectiveness, but you know, as a effectiveness, but you know, as a lifelong athlete, you know, swimmer, lifelong athlete, you know, swimmer, lifelong athlete, you know, swimmer, what- whatever, like, you know, I know what- whatever, like, you know, I know what- whatever, like, you know, I know that like it's just it's really about that like it's just it's really about that like it's just it's really about the basics. And yeah, there's always the basics. And yeah, there's always the basics. And yeah, there's always improvements and iterations on training improvements and iterations on training improvements and iterations on training science, etc. But it's all marginal in science, etc. But it's all marginal in science, etc. But it's all marginal in comparison to comparison to comparison to you know, what we know works. But then you know, what we know works. But then you know, what we know works. But then what gets trafficked on the internet, what gets trafficked on the internet, what gets trafficked on the internet, you know, is just a is this reductive you know, is just a is this reductive you know, is just a is this reductive version of that that gets delivered to version of that that gets delivered to version of that that gets delivered to the average person who doesn't have the the average person who doesn't have the the average person who doesn't have the kind of background that you have in kind of background that you have in kind of background that you have in athletics or science. athletics or science. athletics or science. >> right. I mean, the the good thing about >> right. I mean, the the good thing about >> right. I mean, the the good thing about some of the science some of the science some of the science sort of good and I made sure to to put sort of good and I made sure to to put sort of good and I made sure to to put in a little bit about this because I was in a little bit about this because I was in a little bit about this because I was in writing in this chapter about how in writing in this chapter about how in writing in this chapter about how much scientific research is not true is much scientific research is not true is much scientific research is not true is that that that there are studies showing that people there are studies showing that people there are studies showing that people are reasonably good at guessing what are reasonably good at guessing what are reasonably good at guessing what science isn't going to replicate. So, if science isn't going to replicate. So, if science isn't going to replicate. So, if they if they're if a study is described they if they're if a study is described they if they're if a study is described to them and and then they're asked, do to them and and then they're asked, do to them and and then they're asked, do you think this replicated or not? People you think this replicated or not? People you think this replicated or not? People actually get it right a majority of the actually get it right a majority of the actually get it right a majority of the time. Like it just doesn't sound right. time. Like it just doesn't sound right. time. Like it just doesn't sound right. So, I think if you can slow down a So, I think if you can slow down a So, I think if you can slow down a little and say, does this sound likely? little and say, does this sound likely? little and say, does this sound likely? Is this a small intervention that Is this a small intervention that Is this a small intervention that promises a huge effect? It's it's not promises a huge effect? It's it's not promises a huge effect? It's it's not likely to be true. likely to be true. likely to be true. Meanwhile, I think the less sexy thing, Meanwhile, I think the less sexy thing, Meanwhile, I think the less sexy thing, and maybe I would say this having and maybe I would say this having and maybe I would say this having because I've just been thinking about because I've just been thinking about because I've just been thinking about constraints for the last few years, is constraints for the last few years, is constraints for the last few years, is structuring your life in a way that structuring your life in a way that structuring your life in a way that makes make the basics easier and more makes make the basics easier and more makes make the basics easier and more repeatable, right? It's like putting repeatable, right? It's like putting repeatable, right? It's like putting structures in place that get you just to structures in place that get you just to structures in place that get you just to do the fundamental things instead of do the fundamental things instead of do the fundamental things instead of looking for these kind of marginal gains looking for these kind of marginal gains looking for these kind of marginal gains that that often, you know, at the elite that that often, you know, at the elite that that often, you know, at the elite level often people are focusing on the level often people are focusing on the level often people are focusing on the marginal gains and that's what you hear marginal gains and that's what you hear marginal gains and that's what you hear about. about. about. >> take advantage of that 1%. But for the >> take advantage of that 1%. But for the >> take advantage of that 1%. But for the average person, this is a distraction. average person, this is a distraction. average person, this is a distraction. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. >> More than it is helpful. >> More than it is helpful. >> More than it is helpful. >> they've already gone through that other >> they've already gone through that other >> they've already gone through that other 99% that you haven't really seen, right? 99% that you haven't really seen, right? 99% that you haven't really seen, right? So that's why they're focused on those So that's why they're focused on those So that's why they're focused on those little margins. Well, good thing we have little margins. Well, good thing we have little margins. Well, good thing we have Steve Magness to police the internet. Steve Magness to police the internet. Steve Magness to police the internet. >> [laughter] >> [laughter] >> [laughter] >> On this stuff, right? God bless him. >> On this stuff, right? God bless him. >> On this stuff, right? God bless him. >> energy for policing the internet than I >> energy for policing the internet than I >> energy for policing the internet than I do. do. do. >> he has he must >> he has he must >> he has he must >> have a very thick skin. Yeah. Oh, he >> have a very thick skin. Yeah. Oh, he >> have a very thick skin. Yeah. Oh, he does Do you know how I don't know if does Do you know how I don't know if does Do you know how I don't know if I've told you Steve and I first met I've told you Steve and I first met I've told you Steve and I first met years ago years ago years ago when he was a when he was a when he was a source of mine when I was at ProPublica source of mine when I was at ProPublica source of mine when I was at ProPublica when I was investigating the Oregon when I was investigating the Oregon when I was investigating the Oregon Project. Okay, that's how we first met. Project. Okay, that's how we first met. Project. Okay, that's how we first met. And so And so And so Cuz you're the one who broke the story Cuz you're the one who broke the story Cuz you're the one who broke the story the Nike Oregon Project story and he was the Nike Oregon Project story and he was the Nike Oregon Project story and he was your inside man. your inside man. your inside man. >> He was an inside He was one of the >> He was an inside He was one of the >> He was an inside He was one of the inside men, yeah. And um inside men, yeah. And um inside men, yeah. And um he went through some stuff I mean, that he went through some stuff I mean, that he went through some stuff I mean, that is a tough position to be in. Like is a tough position to be in. Like is a tough position to be in. Like I was getting I was getting I was getting stacks of paper from lawyers and I had stacks of paper from lawyers and I had stacks of paper from lawyers and I had an organization behind me. an organization behind me. an organization behind me. Explain for the audience who might not Explain for the audience who might not Explain for the audience who might not know what we're talking about. know what we're talking about. know what we're talking about. >> Oregon Project was >> Oregon Project was >> Oregon Project was probably the most famous track group in probably the most famous track group in probably the most famous track group in the world for years. It was funded by the world for years. It was funded by the world for years. It was funded by Nike, highly funded. It was meant to Nike, highly funded. It was meant to Nike, highly funded. It was meant to create Americans who could win medals in create Americans who could win medals in create Americans who could win medals in distance running. It was the head coach distance running. It was the head coach distance running. It was the head coach was Alberto Salazar, the most famous was Alberto Salazar, the most famous was Alberto Salazar, the most famous American American American distance runner distance runner distance runner and one of the greatest. and one of the greatest. and one of the greatest. And Steve Magness, who who we're talking And Steve Magness, who who we're talking And Steve Magness, who who we're talking about, who's a physiologist and and about, who's a physiologist and and about, who's a physiologist and and performance writer and coach to some performance writer and coach to some performance writer and coach to some elite runners, elite runners, elite runners, was an assistant coach there was an assistant coach there was an assistant coach there and started to be asked to do things and started to be asked to do things and started to be asked to do things that he thought were unethical, like to that he thought were unethical, like to that he thought were unethical, like to test an illegal method of of using a test an illegal method of of using a test an illegal method of of using a supplement for training to You know, he supplement for training to You know, he supplement for training to You know, he saw some documents that suggested saw some documents that suggested saw some documents that suggested athletes were using banned substances athletes were using banned substances athletes were using banned substances and things like that. and things like that. and things like that. And he decided to And he decided to And he decided to to speak out about it. Um and when I was to speak out about it. Um and when I was to speak out about it. Um and when I was at ProPublica working with the BBC, we at ProPublica working with the BBC, we at ProPublica working with the BBC, we did an investigation of the team. did an investigation of the team. did an investigation of the team. Long story short, it led to the the team Long story short, it led to the the team Long story short, it led to the the team being disbanded and the coach being being disbanded and the coach being being disbanded and the coach being suspended. suspended. suspended. And Steve was the first person to be And Steve was the first person to be And Steve was the first person to be willing to put his name and face, willing to put his name and face, willing to put his name and face, you know, on camera. We were doing a you know, on camera. We were doing a you know, on camera. We were doing a documentary for the BBC behind these documentary for the BBC behind these documentary for the BBC behind these allegations, which then led other people allegations, which then led other people allegations, which then led other people to come out. But he was kind of on an to come out. But he was kind of on an to come out. But he was kind of on an island against a very famous island against a very famous island against a very famous organization that didn't like what he organization that didn't like what he organization that didn't like what he was saying. And so, I kind of feel like was saying. And so, I kind of feel like was saying. And so, I kind of feel like he's like he's like he's like been through it, you know? There's a been through it, you know? There's a been through it, you know? There's a He's battle-tested. You know, he was a He's battle-tested. You know, he was a He's battle-tested. You know, he was a Jeffrey Wigand character. There's when I Jeffrey Wigand character. There's when I Jeffrey Wigand character. There's when I think of him, this this will sound think of him, this this will sound think of him, this this will sound silly, but there's a silly, but there's a silly, but there's a in in in anime that I really like called in in in anime that I really like called in in in anime that I really like called One Piece, that's really famous. And One Piece, that's really famous. And One Piece, that's really famous. And there's a part where one guy is trying there's a part where one guy is trying there's a part where one guy is trying to encourage another guy to have to encourage another guy to have to encourage another guy to have bravery. bravery. bravery. And so, he has him And so, he has him And so, he has him uh uh uh It's This is silly. It's This is silly. It's This is silly. I can't believe I just said publicly I can't believe I just said publicly I can't believe I just said publicly that I watch this thing. But anyway, that I watch this thing. But anyway, that I watch this thing. But anyway, There's a fight between these two guys There's a fight between these two guys There's a fight between these two guys that can turn into dragons at one point. that can turn into dragons at one point. that can turn into dragons at one point. And one is way overmatched. And the guy And one is way overmatched. And the guy And one is way overmatched. And the guy who's trying to encourage him, his who's trying to encourage him, his who's trying to encourage him, his mentor, says, "Bite him. Bite him." And mentor, says, "Bite him. Bite him." And mentor, says, "Bite him. Bite him." And he's like, "What?" And he bites him. He he's like, "What?" And he bites him. He he's like, "What?" And he bites him. He says, says, says, "You just bit the strongest guy in the "You just bit the strongest guy in the "You just bit the strongest guy in the world. Can anything frighten you now?" world. Can anything frighten you now?" world. Can anything frighten you now?" And I feel like that's kind of where And I feel like that's kind of where And I feel like that's kind of where Steve was. It's like he he just bit the Steve was. It's like he he just bit the Steve was. It's like he he just bit the strongest guy in the world. Like, can strongest guy in the world. Like, can strongest guy in the world. Like, can anything frighten him now? And anything frighten him now? And anything frighten him now? And >> [laughter] >> [laughter] >> [laughter] >> I don't think so. >> I don't think so. >> I don't think so. >> Yeah, that's wild. Steve has told that >> Yeah, that's wild. Steve has told that >> Yeah, that's wild. Steve has told that story on the show. He's been on a couple story on the show. He's been on a couple story on the show. He's been on a couple times. I've had Mary Cain on. I've had times. I've had Mary Cain on. I've had times. I've had Mary Cain on. I've had Kara Goucher on. So, if you if you're Kara Goucher on. So, if you if you're Kara Goucher on. So, if you if you're watching or listening and you want to watching or listening and you want to watching or listening and you want to learn more. And I think we talked about learn more. And I think we talked about learn more. And I think we talked about it when you were on the show the first it when you were on the show the first it when you were on the show the first time a couple years time a couple years time a couple years >> time ago. I don't remember for sure, but >> time ago. I don't remember for sure, but >> time ago. I don't remember for sure, but Yes. Let's talk about constraints. I Yes. Let's talk about constraints. I Yes. Let's talk about constraints. I mean, the last time you were on, mean, the last time you were on, mean, the last time you were on, we talked mostly about range, we talked mostly about range, we talked mostly about range, which is essentially you making the case which is essentially you making the case which is essentially you making the case for for for why being a generalist is better than why being a generalist is better than why being a generalist is better than honing in on a specific skill early in honing in on a specific skill early in honing in on a specific skill early in life. And you have all these case life. And you have all these case life. And you have all these case studies that kind of dispel this idea studies that kind of dispel this idea studies that kind of dispel this idea that that that you know, whether it's Tiger Woods or, you know, whether it's Tiger Woods or, you know, whether it's Tiger Woods or, you know, name your kind of superstar in you know, name your kind of superstar in you know, name your kind of superstar in their respective discipline, you're kind their respective discipline, you're kind their respective discipline, you're kind of upending this idea that like you have of upending this idea that like you have of upending this idea that like you have to specify early and just commit to specify early and just commit to specify early and just commit yourself, uh, you know, maniacally to a yourself, uh, you know, maniacally to a yourself, uh, you know, maniacally to a certain thing. And certain thing. And certain thing. And the new book is really kind of the the new book is really kind of the the new book is really kind of the inverse of that. You know, you're inverse of that. You know, you're inverse of that. You know, you're saying, saying, saying, uh, yes to generalism, which is uh, yes to generalism, which is uh, yes to generalism, which is basically like kind of expanding the basically like kind of expanding the basically like kind of expanding the scope of your life experience to this scope of your life experience to this scope of your life experience to this new book which is about like, okay, how new book which is about like, okay, how new book which is about like, okay, how do you focus and kind of implement do you focus and kind of implement do you focus and kind of implement constraints to drive productivity, constraints to drive productivity, constraints to drive productivity, creativity, and essentially like your creativity, and essentially like your creativity, and essentially like your hottest take is is that constraints are hottest take is is that constraints are hottest take is is that constraints are like a necessary, like a necessary, like a necessary, um, um, um, component of having a happy life. Yeah. component of having a happy life. Yeah. component of having a happy life. Yeah. Yeah. And I mean, Yeah. And I mean, Yeah. And I mean, first of all, you've obviously tapped first of all, you've obviously tapped first of all, you've obviously tapped into into into something clear, which is it seems on something clear, which is it seems on something clear, which is it seems on the face of it like it's in conflict the face of it like it's in conflict the face of it like it's in conflict with with this book Inside the Box with with with this book Inside the Box with with with this book Inside the Box with my last book Range. my last book Range. my last book Range. And first of all, if someone's going to And first of all, if someone's going to And first of all, if someone's going to argue with me, it's going to be me. Like argue with me, it's going to be me. Like argue with me, it's going to be me. Like I'm always kind of looking to challenge I'm always kind of looking to challenge I'm always kind of looking to challenge my own ideas, but also I view it as a my own ideas, but also I view it as a my own ideas, but also I view it as a kind of an obvious next question in some kind of an obvious next question in some kind of an obvious next question in some ways. Like some of the most ways. Like some of the most ways. Like some of the most uh, common questions I got after Range uh, common questions I got after Range uh, common questions I got after Range were things like, okay, I have this were things like, okay, I have this were things like, okay, I have this broad toolbox, I have these broad broad toolbox, I have these broad broad toolbox, I have these broad experiences, what now? experiences, what now? experiences, what now? And it's some point you have to focus And it's some point you have to focus And it's some point you have to focus that into achievement of some sort. And that into achievement of some sort. And that into achievement of some sort. And there's a hefty dose of me search in there's a hefty dose of me search in there's a hefty dose of me search in this book, right? Where this book, right? Where this book, right? Where I have this wide-ranging curiosity, I I have this wide-ranging curiosity, I I have this wide-ranging curiosity, I have this zigzagging career, and I have have this zigzagging career, and I have have this zigzagging career, and I have struggled to channel that. In There's a struggled to channel that. In There's a struggled to channel that. In There's a reason why I have a book out every 6 reason why I have a book out every 6 reason why I have a book out every 6 years years years is because it's really hard for me to is because it's really hard for me to is because it's really hard for me to draw boundaries around my projects, and draw boundaries around my projects, and draw boundaries around my projects, and so I wanted to get better at this. so I wanted to get better at this. so I wanted to get better at this. And and I did. And and I did. And and I did. So, I don't think it would take me 6 So, I don't think it would take me 6 So, I don't think it would take me 6 years again. So, if if AI doesn't years again. So, if if AI doesn't years again. So, if if AI doesn't obviate books, then I think I'll be obviate books, then I think I'll be obviate books, then I think I'll be writing them more often. writing them more often. writing them more often. Um, Um, Um, >> So, you've benefited from going on this >> So, you've benefited from going on this >> So, you've benefited from going on this exploration. I mean, that was a major exploration. I mean, that was a major exploration. I mean, that was a major impetus for the exploration in the first impetus for the exploration in the first impetus for the exploration in the first place is that readers were asking me the place is that readers were asking me the place is that readers were asking me the same question I had for myself. same question I had for myself. same question I had for myself. Um which is how can I draw boundaries Um which is how can I draw boundaries Um which is how can I draw boundaries around my projects to to contain them around my projects to to contain them around my projects to to contain them and and and kind of focus my energy in a and and and kind of focus my energy in a and and and kind of focus my energy in a productive way. productive way. productive way. And along the way as I got interested in And along the way as I got interested in And along the way as I got interested in learning about constraints, I realized learning about constraints, I realized learning about constraints, I realized also that also that also that we are always attracted to more freedom, we are always attracted to more freedom, we are always attracted to more freedom, but more freedom isn't actually always but more freedom isn't actually always but more freedom isn't actually always good for our for our creativity, for our good for our for our creativity, for our good for our for our creativity, for our well-being, especially and I think this well-being, especially and I think this well-being, especially and I think this is especially true now in is especially true now in is especially true now in the AI age where the AI age where the AI age where there is infinite capacity to start there is infinite capacity to start there is infinite capacity to start things and be overwhelmed by things and things and be overwhelmed by things and things and be overwhelmed by things and to do more and more and more and more. to do more and more and more and more. to do more and more and more and more. And there are all these kind of And there are all these kind of And there are all these kind of productivity hacks that I think are productivity hacks that I think are productivity hacks that I think are really illusions and what we often need really illusions and what we often need really illusions and what we often need to do is to do is to do is uh clarify our priorities and grapple uh clarify our priorities and grapple uh clarify our priorities and grapple with the fact that we have limited time with the fact that we have limited time with the fact that we have limited time and energy and and clarify. So, one of and energy and and clarify. So, one of and energy and and clarify. So, one of one of the most useful things I did as I one of the most useful things I did as I one of the most useful things I did as I learned about constraints was learned about constraints was learned about constraints was that I now recommend everyone is make that I now recommend everyone is make that I now recommend everyone is make all of my current commitments visible. all of my current commitments visible. all of my current commitments visible. Like I took posted notes. I write about Like I took posted notes. I write about Like I took posted notes. I write about a genomics lab in the book that did a genomics lab in the book that did a genomics lab in the book that did this, but this, but this, but put them on posted notes, put them on put them on posted notes, put them on put them on posted notes, put them on the wall and the wall and the wall and immediately the thing that I saw was I immediately the thing that I saw was I immediately the thing that I saw was I couldn't finish all of this stuff couldn't finish all of this stuff couldn't finish all of this stuff ever. And that's just what I have going ever. And that's just what I have going ever. And that's just what I have going now. now. now. And so immediately you start to say, And so immediately you start to say, And so immediately you start to say, what are the priorities here and and what are the priorities here and and what are the priorities here and and what are the things that I can I can what are the things that I can I can what are the things that I can I can move to later. move to later. move to later. And so I think it's for our And so I think it's for our And so I think it's for our productivity, for our sense of productivity, for our sense of productivity, for our sense of well-being, we have to have well-being, we have to have well-being, we have to have constraints and boundaries. And that's constraints and boundaries. And that's constraints and boundaries. And that's hard, but more important in this kind of hard, but more important in this kind of hard, but more important in this kind of information overload, infinite choice information overload, infinite choice information overload, infinite choice world that we're living in now. world that we're living in now. world that we're living in now. >> Mhm. >> Mhm. >> Mhm. It's not dissimilar from the idea that It's not dissimilar from the idea that It's not dissimilar from the idea that we need to welcome discomfort into our we need to welcome discomfort into our we need to welcome discomfort into our lives. Like discomfort, this Susan David lives. Like discomfort, this Susan David lives. Like discomfort, this Susan David idea of like discomfort is a price of idea of like discomfort is a price of idea of like discomfort is a price of admission for a meaningful life. And you admission for a meaningful life. And you admission for a meaningful life. And you know, our lives are so lined with know, our lives are so lined with know, our lives are so lined with convenience these days and this cultural convenience these days and this cultural convenience these days and this cultural priority around like luxury and priority around like luxury and priority around like luxury and relaxation, etc. that we actually have relaxation, etc. that we actually have relaxation, etc. that we actually have to go out of our way to seek out to go out of our way to seek out to go out of our way to seek out uncomfortable experiences to stress uncomfortable experiences to stress uncomfortable experiences to stress ourselves to feel alive. And this is a ourselves to feel alive. And this is a ourselves to feel alive. And this is a sort of creativity, productivity version sort of creativity, productivity version sort of creativity, productivity version of that. Like we have to seek out of that. Like we have to seek out of that. Like we have to seek out constraints because things like AI or constraints because things like AI or constraints because things like AI or technological tools or the infinite technological tools or the infinite technological tools or the infinite scroll or you know, like just an scroll or you know, like just an scroll or you know, like just an unlimited number of movies that we can unlimited number of movies that we can unlimited number of movies that we can watch on Netflix we sort of dilute watch on Netflix we sort of dilute watch on Netflix we sort of dilute ourselves into thinking that this is ourselves into thinking that this is ourselves into thinking that this is good Yeah. good Yeah. good Yeah. >> when in fact it's limiting. And it makes >> when in fact it's limiting. And it makes >> when in fact it's limiting. And it makes people unhappy like the people unhappy like the people unhappy like the there are these international surveys there are these international surveys there are these international surveys that show that people have been becoming that show that people have been becoming that show that people have been becoming more bored since infinite scrolling more bored since infinite scrolling more bored since infinite scrolling came into existence. More bored. came into existence. More bored. came into existence. More bored. That's very counterintuitive. The fact That's very counterintuitive. The fact That's very counterintuitive. The fact that you can choose from all these that you can choose from all these that you can choose from all these entertainment options and find the best entertainment options and find the best entertainment options and find the best thing and yet you get more bored. thing and yet you get more bored. thing and yet you get more bored. >> But it's the wrong kind of boredom >> But it's the wrong kind of boredom >> But it's the wrong kind of boredom because we want boredom, rumination, you because we want boredom, rumination, you because we want boredom, rumination, you know, or like just our know, or like just our know, or like just our our ability to like engage our our ability to like engage our our ability to like engage our imagination as a function of boredom. imagination as a function of boredom. imagination as a function of boredom. But this is a boredom it's almost like a But this is a boredom it's almost like a But this is a boredom it's almost like a more like an anime. Like it's not it's more like an anime. Like it's not it's more like an anime. Like it's not it's not that kind of boredom. It's kind of not that kind of boredom. It's kind of not that kind of boredom. It's kind of like a depressed boredom. I mean anime like a depressed boredom. I mean anime like a depressed boredom. I mean anime is a is a is a keyword in the late in is a is a is a keyword in the late in is a is a is a keyword in the late in the book this word that means basically the book this word that means basically the book this word that means basically rulelessness. rulelessness. rulelessness. And and a popularizer of it was Emile And and a popularizer of it was Emile And and a popularizer of it was Emile Durkheim who was widely regarded as the Durkheim who was widely regarded as the Durkheim who was widely regarded as the founder of modern sociology, French founder of modern sociology, French founder of modern sociology, French sociologist in the late 19th century sociologist in the late 19th century sociologist in the late 19th century when governments started keeping when governments started keeping when governments started keeping statistics about all sorts of things. He statistics about all sorts of things. He statistics about all sorts of things. He looked at suicide statistics in a looked at suicide statistics in a looked at suicide statistics in a systematic way for the first time ever. systematic way for the first time ever. systematic way for the first time ever. And at the time And at the time And at the time suicide was considered an individual suicide was considered an individual suicide was considered an individual psychological problem. Like something's psychological problem. Like something's psychological problem. Like something's wrong with that person. Okay. wrong with that person. Okay. wrong with that person. Okay. What he showed was that's absolutely not What he showed was that's absolutely not What he showed was that's absolutely not the case that it rises and falls the the case that it rises and falls the the case that it rises and falls the prevalence of of suicide with social prevalence of of suicide with social prevalence of of suicide with social conditions. And that it's a a movement conditions. And that it's a a movement conditions. And that it's a a movement in many ways, not individual in many ways, not individual in many ways, not individual psychological problems. He saw that psychological problems. He saw that psychological problems. He saw that when the economic fate of a country when the economic fate of a country when the economic fate of a country plummets, that suicide goes up. But plummets, that suicide goes up. But plummets, that suicide goes up. But surprisingly, he saw that when it rises surprisingly, he saw that when it rises surprisingly, he saw that when it rises too fast, it also goes up. Like anything too fast, it also goes up. Like anything too fast, it also goes up. Like anything that unmoors people from the things that that unmoors people from the things that that unmoors people from the things that ground them you know, in their identity ground them you know, in their identity ground them you know, in their identity and that that in some sense of habit and and that that in some sense of habit and and that that in some sense of habit and repetition causes people to feel repetition causes people to feel repetition causes people to feel desperate. desperate. desperate. And I feel like we have so much of that And I feel like we have so much of that And I feel like we have so much of that today where today where today where so much of virtual life is as as so much of virtual life is as as so much of virtual life is as as Jonathan Haidt told me when I was Jonathan Haidt told me when I was Jonathan Haidt told me when I was interviewing him for that chapter is interviewing him for that chapter is interviewing him for that chapter is this endless cycle of micro dramas with this endless cycle of micro dramas with this endless cycle of micro dramas with a cast of changing characters, right? a cast of changing characters, right? a cast of changing characters, right? People who just come in and out. And it People who just come in and out. And it People who just come in and out. And it just doesn't feel very grounded in just doesn't feel very grounded in just doesn't feel very grounded in reality. And so I think we reality. And so I think we reality. And so I think we the convenience you mentioned. the convenience you mentioned. the convenience you mentioned. Convenience is a problem. Everything has Convenience is a problem. Everything has Convenience is a problem. Everything has gotten so convenient gotten so convenient gotten so convenient that that that we don't have the friction that like we don't have the friction that like we don't have the friction that like adds meaning that causes learning. There adds meaning that causes learning. There adds meaning that causes learning. There There's I was just I was just writing There's I was just I was just writing There's I was just I was just writing about these brand new studies that look about these brand new studies that look about these brand new studies that look at people writing essays with AI, and at people writing essays with AI, and at people writing essays with AI, and they don't learn anything from their own they don't learn anything from their own they don't learn anything from their own essay cuz they're just relying on the essay cuz they're just relying on the essay cuz they're just relying on the tool. So you want these what tool. So you want these what tool. So you want these what psychologists call desirable psychologists call desirable psychologists call desirable difficulties. These things that slow you difficulties. These things that slow you difficulties. These things that slow you down, that make learning more down, that make learning more down, that make learning more frustrating, but they actually make it frustrating, but they actually make it frustrating, but they actually make it much better in the long term. So in some much better in the long term. So in some much better in the long term. So in some ways I agree, the book is very much ways I agree, the book is very much ways I agree, the book is very much about things that feel inconvenient, about things that feel inconvenient, about things that feel inconvenient, but that actually but that actually but that actually make you better and have a greater sense make you better and have a greater sense make you better and have a greater sense of meaning. of meaning. of meaning. There's something tragic about the fact There's something tragic about the fact There's something tragic about the fact that we have to that we have to that we have to go out of our way to find these things. go out of our way to find these things. go out of our way to find these things. Like, you know, it wasn't that long ago Like, you know, it wasn't that long ago Like, you know, it wasn't that long ago where life would just present us with where life would just present us with where life would just present us with this naturally, and this was just part this naturally, and this was just part this naturally, and this was just part of living and growing up. of living and growing up. of living and growing up. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. And now we're insulated from these And now we're insulated from these And now we're insulated from these things that things that things that uh you know, actually make us feel alive uh you know, actually make us feel alive uh you know, actually make us feel alive because we were under the because we were under the because we were under the misapprehension that misapprehension that misapprehension that uh they were making us unhappy when in uh they were making us unhappy when in uh they were making us unhappy when in fact the contrary is the case. Yeah. No, fact the contrary is the case. Yeah. No, fact the contrary is the case. Yeah. No, I I I I totally agree. I mean, I I I I I I I totally agree. I mean, I I I I I I I totally agree. I mean, I I I think it's it's it's counterintuitive, think it's it's it's counterintuitive, think it's it's it's counterintuitive, right? It's deeply counterintuitive. right? It's deeply counterintuitive. right? It's deeply counterintuitive. Like Like Like the idea that having more options and the idea that having more options and the idea that having more options and all these things won't just be better all these things won't just be better all these things won't just be better and bring us to better decisions and and bring us to better decisions and and bring us to better decisions and make us happier, but it's what the make us happier, but it's what the make us happier, but it's what the research shows again and again and again research shows again and again and again research shows again and again and again is that is that is that like people are like people are like people are making decisions in the interest of making decisions in the interest of making decisions in the interest of preserving optionality. Like you hear preserving optionality. Like you hear preserving optionality. Like you hear that phrase all the time, keeping your that phrase all the time, keeping your that phrase all the time, keeping your options open. options open. options open. And that becomes an end to itself and And that becomes an end to itself and And that becomes an end to itself and that's actually like a really bad way to that's actually like a really bad way to that's actually like a really bad way to to make decisions basically. People in to make decisions basically. People in to make decisions basically. People in in in studies express a preference for in in studies express a preference for in in studies express a preference for reversible decisions for example because reversible decisions for example because reversible decisions for example because they want to keep their options open, they want to keep their options open, they want to keep their options open, but tend to be much happier with but tend to be much happier with but tend to be much happier with irreversible decisions. irreversible decisions. irreversible decisions. >> Mhm. And so I think it's seemed >> Mhm. And so I think it's seemed >> Mhm. And so I think it's seemed attractive. Like I remember when Mark attractive. Like I remember when Mark attractive. Like I remember when Mark Zuckerberg talked about making the Zuckerberg talked about making the Zuckerberg talked about making the metaverse. metaverse. metaverse. And he he he had this kind of video that And he he he had this kind of video that And he he he had this kind of video that he made and he said, "It's going to be he made and he said, "It's going to be he made and he said, "It's going to be amazing. amazing. amazing. Everyone can live in a universe that's Everyone can live in a universe that's Everyone can live in a universe that's tailored just to them." tailored just to them." tailored just to them." And I'm now looking at this through the And I'm now looking at this through the And I'm now looking at this through the lens of the constraints research that I lens of the constraints research that I lens of the constraints research that I did for this book. It's like that is the did for this book. It's like that is the did for this book. It's like that is the worst thing a man like that's like worst thing a man like that's like worst thing a man like that's like literally sounds like, you know, the literally sounds like, you know, the literally sounds like, you know, the underworld that you go to if you're bad. underworld that you go to if you're bad. underworld that you go to if you're bad. And so I think some of the things that And so I think some of the things that And so I think some of the things that sound like they might be good sound like they might be good sound like they might be good uh uh uh just turn out, you know, our brains just turn out, you know, our brains just turn out, you know, our brains aren't meant to have access to aren't meant to have access to aren't meant to have access to everything everywhere all of the time. For better or worse, we are in this For better or worse, we are in this hyper optimization focused culture that hyper optimization focused culture that hyper optimization focused culture that tells us if we're not fully dialed in, tells us if we're not fully dialed in, tells us if we're not fully dialed in, then there's something wrong with us, then there's something wrong with us, then there's something wrong with us, which in my opinion is kind of a form of which in my opinion is kind of a form of which in my opinion is kind of a form of violence given how challenging life is violence given how challenging life is violence given how challenging life is already, how difficult it is to just already, how difficult it is to just already, how difficult it is to just strike a healthy balance between work, strike a healthy balance between work, strike a healthy balance between work, >> [music] >> [music] >> [music] >> family, and all our grown-up >> family, and all our grown-up >> family, and all our grown-up responsibilities. And the expectation responsibilities. And the expectation responsibilities. And the expectation that somehow amidst all of this that that somehow amidst all of this that that somehow amidst all of this that we're supposed to stay balanced, we're supposed to stay balanced, we're supposed to stay balanced, present, and grounded. I know that I present, and grounded. I know that I present, and grounded. I know that I need support and therapy is one way I need support and therapy is one way I need support and therapy is one way I get it, which has been crucial in get it, which has been crucial in get it, which has been crucial in managing all the pressure. Therapy is managing all the pressure. Therapy is managing all the pressure. Therapy is not just for moments of crisis. It's not just for moments of crisis. It's not just for moments of crisis. It's this incredibly powerful tool for growth this incredibly powerful tool for growth this incredibly powerful tool for growth and for becoming more intentional about and for becoming more intentional about and for becoming more intentional about how we show up in our lives. BetterHelp how we show up in our lives. BetterHelp how we show up in our lives. BetterHelp makes therapy easier [music] to fit into makes therapy easier [music] to fit into makes therapy easier [music] to fit into your routine because it's all online. your routine because it's all online. your routine because it's all online. You can connect with a therapist by You can connect with a therapist by You can connect with a therapist by phone, video, or message chat, all phone, video, or message chat, all phone, video, or message chat, all according to your schedule. And with according to your schedule. And with according to your schedule. And with over 30,000 therapists and more than 6 over 30,000 therapists and more than 6 over 30,000 therapists and more than 6 million people served globally, it's the million people served globally, it's the million people served globally, it's the largest [music] online therapy platform largest [music] online therapy platform largest [music] online therapy platform in the world. If your therapist isn't in the world. If your therapist isn't in the world. If your therapist isn't the right fit, you can switch [music] the right fit, you can switch [music] the right fit, you can switch [music] anytime easily at no extra cost. anytime easily at no extra cost. anytime easily at no extra cost. Prioritize your well-being with Prioritize your well-being with Prioritize your well-being with BetterHelp. Sign up and get 10% off at BetterHelp. Sign up and get 10% off at BetterHelp. Sign up and get 10% off at betterhelp.com/richroll. [music] I've spent a lot of time talking about I've spent a lot of time talking about my Rivian, driving my Rivian, my Rivian, driving my Rivian, my Rivian, driving my Rivian, obsessively sharing photos of my Rivian obsessively sharing photos of my Rivian obsessively sharing photos of my Rivian on Instagram, but the best is when I on Instagram, but the best is when I on Instagram, but the best is when I hand the key fob over to someone who's hand the key fob over to someone who's hand the key fob over to someone who's never driven one. And there's always never driven one. And there's always never driven one. And there's always this moment, that instant, where they this moment, that instant, where they this moment, that instant, where they feel the acceleration, silent, feel the acceleration, silent, feel the acceleration, silent, immediate, and they just start laughing immediate, and they just start laughing immediate, and they just start laughing because it doesn't feel like any car because it doesn't feel like any car because it doesn't feel like any car they've ever driven before. And it they've ever driven before. And it they've ever driven before. And it reminds me, this is one of those things reminds me, this is one of those things reminds me, this is one of those things you really have to experience. It's not you really have to experience. It's not you really have to experience. It's not just fast, it's smooth, it's quiet, it's just fast, it's smooth, it's quiet, it's just fast, it's smooth, it's quiet, it's focused. It's the kind of movement that focused. It's the kind of movement that focused. It's the kind of movement that makes everything else feel a little makes everything else feel a little makes everything else feel a little outdated. And Rivian makes it easy to outdated. And Rivian makes it easy to outdated. And Rivian makes it easy to try for yourself. You can book a demo try for yourself. You can book a demo try for yourself. You can book a demo drive online, pick a time, show up, and drive online, pick a time, show up, and drive online, pick a time, show up, and just get out on the road, no pressure. just get out on the road, no pressure. just get out on the road, no pressure. So, if you've ever been curious, don't So, if you've ever been curious, don't So, if you've ever been curious, don't just take my word for it. Go to just take my word for it. Go to just take my word for it. Go to rivian.com and feel it for yourself. As some of you know, I am in a very As some of you know, I am in a very different season of training than I've different season of training than I've different season of training than I've ever been in before. ever been in before. ever been in before. I'm rebuilding, slowly, intentionally, I'm rebuilding, slowly, intentionally, I'm rebuilding, slowly, intentionally, after this spinal fusion surgery that I after this spinal fusion surgery that I after this spinal fusion surgery that I underwent this [music] past May. And I'm underwent this [music] past May. And I'm underwent this [music] past May. And I'm learning what it means to be patient learning what it means to be patient learning what it means to be patient with my fitness, and how to prioritize with my fitness, and how to prioritize with my fitness, and how to prioritize sustainability over intensity. [music] sustainability over intensity. [music] sustainability over intensity. [music] And I got to say that Whoop, And I got to say that Whoop, And I got to say that Whoop, specifically my new Whoop 4.0 wearable, specifically my new Whoop 4.0 wearable, specifically my new Whoop 4.0 wearable, this thing you always see on my wrist this thing you always see on my wrist this thing you always see on my wrist right here, uh has been this just right here, uh has been this just right here, uh has been this just enormously helpful companion in this enormously helpful companion in this enormously helpful companion in this [music] process. It's a screenless [music] process. It's a screenless [music] process. It's a screenless wearable health and fitness coach that wearable health and fitness coach that wearable health and fitness coach that gives me personalized insights into my gives me personalized insights into my gives me personalized insights into my sleep and my recovery, my strain, and my sleep and my recovery, my strain, and my sleep and my recovery, my strain, and my overall health, helping me to really overall health, helping me to really overall health, helping me to really understand what my body is actually understand what my body is actually understand what my body is actually ready for on any given day. And that ready for on any given day. And that ready for on any given day. And that awareness is what is helping me really awareness is what is helping me really awareness is what is helping me really stay focused and consistent, [music] stay focused and consistent, [music] stay focused and consistent, [music] which is essentially everything right which is essentially everything right which is essentially everything right now. I do have some meaningful goals now. I do have some meaningful goals now. I do have some meaningful goals ahead. I am very intentional about ahead. I am very intentional about ahead. I am very intentional about getting back to pain-free [music] getting back to pain-free [music] getting back to pain-free [music] running, and hopefully lining up for the running, and hopefully lining up for the running, and hopefully lining up for the New York City Marathon to celebrate my New York City Marathon to celebrate my New York City Marathon to celebrate my 60th birthday [music] in the fall. And 60th birthday [music] in the fall. And 60th birthday [music] in the fall. And Whoop is helping me make the best Whoop is helping me make the best Whoop is helping me make the best decisions that are moving me the most decisions that are moving me the most decisions that are moving me the most expeditiously forward toward those expeditiously forward toward those expeditiously forward toward those moments with uh greater results and moments with uh greater results and moments with uh greater results and intention. [music] intention. [music] intention. [music] So, I would suggest that you check it So, I would suggest that you check it So, I would suggest that you check it out. Go to join.whoop.com/roll out. Go to join.whoop.com/roll out. Go to join.whoop.com/roll for 1 month free of Whoop. If you pay attention at all, you know If you pay attention at all, you know that constraints drive uh unique that constraints drive uh unique that constraints drive uh unique creative solutions. And yet, there still creative solutions. And yet, there still creative solutions. And yet, there still is this intractable notion that um the is this intractable notion that um the is this intractable notion that um the path to creativity is freedom. Like, oh, path to creativity is freedom. Like, oh, path to creativity is freedom. Like, oh, you you know, when you're free, then you you you know, when you're free, then you you you know, when you're free, then you can just create. So, like, state the can just create. So, like, state the can just create. So, like, state the thesis, and I want to understand like thesis, and I want to understand like thesis, and I want to understand like this journey that you've gone on to this journey that you've gone on to this journey that you've gone on to really understand the relationship really understand the relationship really understand the relationship between constraints and you know, kind between constraints and you know, kind between constraints and you know, kind of transcending productivity, you know, of transcending productivity, you know, of transcending productivity, you know, into like kind of breakthroughs and, you into like kind of breakthroughs and, you into like kind of breakthroughs and, you know, interesting results. Like, when know, interesting results. Like, when know, interesting results. Like, when you look at all these case studies, you look at all these case studies, you look at all these case studies, like, what have you discovered? like, what have you discovered? like, what have you discovered? >> Yeah, and you and you're right that it >> Yeah, and you and you're right that it >> Yeah, and you and you're right that it feels that So, in this group of feels that So, in this group of feels that So, in this group of psychologists did an international psychologists did an international psychologists did an international survey recently about creativity myths, survey recently about creativity myths, survey recently about creativity myths, and things that we know are not true and things that we know are not true and things that we know are not true from research. And they found the most from research. And they found the most from research. And they found the most popular myth was that people are most popular myth was that people are most popular myth was that people are most creative when they are most free. Well, creative when they are most free. Well, creative when they are most free. Well, in fact, it's it's the opposite. So, in fact, it's it's the opposite. So, in fact, it's it's the opposite. So, as the cognitive scientist Daniel as the cognitive scientist Daniel as the cognitive scientist Daniel Willingham says, you may think that your Willingham says, you may think that your Willingham says, you may think that your brain is made for thinking, but it's brain is made for thinking, but it's brain is made for thinking, but it's actually made for preventing you from actually made for preventing you from actually made for preventing you from having to think whenever possible having to think whenever possible having to think whenever possible because because because thinking is energetically costly. thinking is energetically costly. thinking is energetically costly. And so, if you have total freedom, you And so, if you have total freedom, you And so, if you have total freedom, you just go down what cognitive just go down what cognitive just go down what cognitive psychologists call the path of least psychologists call the path of least psychologists call the path of least resistance, meaning resistance, meaning resistance, meaning you will reach for solutions that you you will reach for solutions that you you will reach for solutions that you have seen before, that you have done have seen before, that you have done have seen before, that you have done before. It's almost impossible to do before. It's almost impossible to do before. It's almost impossible to do anything creative unless that path is anything creative unless that path is anything creative unless that path is blocked, the path of least resistance, blocked, the path of least resistance, blocked, the path of least resistance, using what's often called a preclude using what's often called a preclude using what's often called a preclude constraint. You you preclude the constraint. You you preclude the constraint. You you preclude the solution that you're that you're used solution that you're that you're used solution that you're that you're used to. to. to. And so, now one psychologist calls this And so, now one psychologist calls this And so, now one psychologist calls this this impact of blocking familiar this impact of blocking familiar this impact of blocking familiar solutions on creativity. It's like the solutions on creativity. It's like the solutions on creativity. It's like the fastest way to spur creativity is to fastest way to spur creativity is to fastest way to spur creativity is to say, "What's the thing I usually do? I'm say, "What's the thing I usually do? I'm say, "What's the thing I usually do? I'm not allowed to do that this next time." not allowed to do that this next time." not allowed to do that this next time." Whether that's Whether that's Whether that's art or I'm going into a client meeting, art or I'm going into a client meeting, art or I'm going into a client meeting, what if I couldn't propose the usual what if I couldn't propose the usual what if I couldn't propose the usual thing, what would I do? thing, what would I do? thing, what would I do? This one psychologist calls it the Green This one psychologist calls it the Green This one psychologist calls it the Green Eggs and Ham effect, which is named for Eggs and Ham effect, which is named for Eggs and Ham effect, which is named for the fact that Dr. Seuss wrote Green Eggs the fact that Dr. Seuss wrote Green Eggs the fact that Dr. Seuss wrote Green Eggs and Ham on a bet that he couldn't write and Ham on a bet that he couldn't write and Ham on a bet that he couldn't write a children's book using only 50 words. a children's book using only 50 words. a children's book using only 50 words. And so, it forced him to And so, it forced him to And so, it forced him to experiment with rhythm. experiment with rhythm. experiment with rhythm. Uh because he couldn't experiment with Uh because he couldn't experiment with Uh because he couldn't experiment with vocabulary. Even before that, he had a vocabulary. Even before that, he had a vocabulary. Even before that, he had a bet that he couldn't do one with 200 bet that he couldn't do one with 200 bet that he couldn't do one with 200 words from a vocabulary list. words from a vocabulary list. words from a vocabulary list. First, he looks at the list, First, he looks at the list, First, he looks at the list, starts carping to his wife, says, starts carping to his wife, says, starts carping to his wife, says, "There's no adjectives. What am I "There's no adjectives. What am I "There's no adjectives. What am I supposed to do?" supposed to do?" supposed to do?" Then he he he said in in in fine Then he he he said in in in fine Then he he he said in in in fine Seussian form, he compared it to making Seussian form, he compared it to making Seussian form, he compared it to making a strudel with no strudels. So, I think a strudel with no strudels. So, I think a strudel with no strudels. So, I think he was like in his personal life who he he was like in his personal life who he he was like in his personal life who he was in his public life. And then he was in his public life. And then he was in his public life. And then he decides, "You know what? decides, "You know what? decides, "You know what? I'm just going to take the first two I'm just going to take the first two I'm just going to take the first two rhyming words on the list and make a rhyming words on the list and make a rhyming words on the list and make a book." And the first two rhyming words book." And the first two rhyming words book." And the first two rhyming words are cat and hat, and changes children's are cat and hat, and changes children's are cat and hat, and changes children's literature forever. But this shows up literature forever. But this shows up literature forever. But this shows up again and again and again when people again and again and again when people again and again and again when people are often it's not by choice, are often it's not by choice, are often it's not by choice, right? That that I think is a important right? That that I think is a important right? That that I think is a important thing in the book that whether you thing in the book that whether you thing in the book that whether you self-impose constraints or whether self-impose constraints or whether self-impose constraints or whether they're imposed on you, they're imposed on you, they're imposed on you, if you view them instead of limitations if you view them instead of limitations if you view them instead of limitations as opportunities to clarify priorities as opportunities to clarify priorities as opportunities to clarify priorities and to launch into productive and to launch into productive and to launch into productive experimentation, experimentation, experimentation, it can be the most powerful tool you it can be the most powerful tool you it can be the most powerful tool you have. So, have. So, have. So, there are things like there are things like there are things like we were talking a little bit about NASA we were talking a little bit about NASA we were talking a little bit about NASA before this and NASA had a mission when before this and NASA had a mission when before this and NASA had a mission when I gave this book to this guy named Ed I gave this book to this guy named Ed I gave this book to this guy named Ed Hoffman who was that what's called Hoffman who was that what's called Hoffman who was that what's called NASA's first chief knowledge officer. NASA's first chief knowledge officer. NASA's first chief knowledge officer. It's kind of like the head psychologist It's kind of like the head psychologist It's kind of like the head psychologist at NASA. at NASA. at NASA. He goes, "Oh man, I'm really thinking He goes, "Oh man, I'm really thinking He goes, "Oh man, I'm really thinking about this mission called El Cross where about this mission called El Cross where about this mission called El Cross where the team ended up with half the time and the team ended up with half the time and the team ended up with half the time and budget that they wanted." So, first they budget that they wanted." So, first they budget that they wanted." So, first they complained complained complained and then they said, "If we were going to and then they said, "If we were going to and then they said, "If we were going to get this done, how would we do it?" get this done, how would we do it?" get this done, how would we do it?" And they end up having to borrow tech. And they end up having to borrow tech. And they end up having to borrow tech. They take imaging equipment from army They take imaging equipment from army They take imaging equipment from army tanks and engine temperature sensors tanks and engine temperature sensors tanks and engine temperature sensors from that straight out of NASCAR. from that straight out of NASCAR. from that straight out of NASCAR. They build a probe that finds confirms They build a probe that finds confirms They build a probe that finds confirms water on the moon. water on the moon. water on the moon. And so, it's this always that blocking And so, it's this always that blocking And so, it's this always that blocking of of what you would have done otherwise of of what you would have done otherwise of of what you would have done otherwise that is the thing that launches us into that is the thing that launches us into that is the thing that launches us into creative exploration. A lot of creative exploration. A lot of creative exploration. A lot of artistic innovators, you know, whether artistic innovators, you know, whether artistic innovators, you know, whether it's Picasso or Bach, it's Picasso or Bach, it's Picasso or Bach, they will self-impose these constraints. they will self-impose these constraints. they will self-impose these constraints. It's as if they have some I mean, I It's as if they have some I mean, I It's as if they have some I mean, I guess it's like great practitioners guess it's like great practitioners guess it's like great practitioners always. They're like way ahead of the always. They're like way ahead of the always. They're like way ahead of the science. They they do this stuff science. They they do this stuff science. They they do this stuff intuitively and then intuitively and then intuitively and then decades later science catches up and decades later science catches up and decades later science catches up and says, "This is why it works." So, a lot says, "This is why it works." So, a lot says, "This is why it works." So, a lot of the serial innovators kind of of the serial innovators kind of of the serial innovators kind of self-imposed constraints that that block self-imposed constraints that that block self-imposed constraints that that block their own solutions. The musician who their own solutions. The musician who their own solutions. The musician who says, "These chords are off the table." says, "These chords are off the table." says, "These chords are off the table." You have the colon concert example of You have the colon concert example of You have the colon concert example of the kind of mistuned broken piano, you the kind of mistuned broken piano, you the kind of mistuned broken piano, you know, kind of creating this legendary know, kind of creating this legendary know, kind of creating this legendary concert experience. concert experience. concert experience. >> Miles Davis did that for kind of Blue >> Miles Davis did that for kind of Blue >> Miles Davis did that for kind of Blue where he limited what, you know, where he limited what, you know, where he limited what, you know, probably the greatest probably the greatest probably the greatest jazz album of all time. Yeah. This is jazz album of all time. Yeah. This is jazz album of all time. Yeah. This is where your work kind of intersects with where your work kind of intersects with where your work kind of intersects with Tom Sachs who's just on my brain because Tom Sachs who's just on my brain because Tom Sachs who's just on my brain because uh he was recently on the podcast and I uh he was recently on the podcast and I uh he was recently on the podcast and I was with him at South by Southwest, you was with him at South by Southwest, you was with him at South by Southwest, you know, just the other week. And his whole know, just the other week. And his whole know, just the other week. And his whole idea of ISRU, in situ resource idea of ISRU, in situ resource idea of ISRU, in situ resource utilization. Like this is a guy who utilization. Like this is a guy who utilization. Like this is a guy who decided he wanted to have have space decided he wanted to have have space decided he wanted to have have space program. program. program. >> Yeah. Uh and he was going to uh erect >> Yeah. Uh and he was going to uh erect >> Yeah. Uh and he was going to uh erect this space program with this space program with this space program with basically plywood and like whatever he basically plywood and like whatever he basically plywood and like whatever he could find at the scrapyard, you know? could find at the scrapyard, you know? could find at the scrapyard, you know? And this this this turns into like this And this this this turns into like this And this this this turns into like this really magical kind of gigantic art really magical kind of gigantic art really magical kind of gigantic art installation installation installation that leads him into a relationship with that leads him into a relationship with that leads him into a relationship with JPL and NASA. Like by him kind of JPL and NASA. Like by him kind of JPL and NASA. Like by him kind of imagining I'm going to do this, working imagining I'm going to do this, working imagining I'm going to do this, working with the constraints, and you know, kind with the constraints, and you know, kind with the constraints, and you know, kind of leveraging his of leveraging his of leveraging his sculptural talents, sculptural talents, sculptural talents, actually turns into like this actually turns into like this actually turns into like this long-standing relationship where he's long-standing relationship where he's long-standing relationship where he's like the in-house art director to JPL like the in-house art director to JPL like the in-house art director to JPL with their Mars mission. Like it's with their Mars mission. Like it's with their Mars mission. Like it's insane, right? So it's like this insane, right? So it's like this insane, right? So it's like this visionary aspect that's also grounded in visionary aspect that's also grounded in visionary aspect that's also grounded in like practicality and driven entirely by like practicality and driven entirely by like practicality and driven entirely by very limited resources and constraints. very limited resources and constraints. very limited resources and constraints. I mean, that whole Institute Resource I mean, that whole Institute Resource I mean, that whole Institute Resource Utilization, right? Because it's NASA, Utilization, right? Because it's NASA, Utilization, right? Because it's NASA, it sounds like because they make it sounds like because they make it sounds like because they make acronyms for everything, right? acronyms for everything, right? acronyms for everything, right? Basically, it means Basically, it means Basically, it means use what you got. Yeah, basically. use what you got. Yeah, basically. use what you got. Yeah, basically. What's what's what's what's what's What's what's what's what's what's What's what's what's what's what's what's around here that we can use? And what's around here that we can use? And what's around here that we can use? And And how can we repurpose all this stuff, And how can we repurpose all this stuff, And how can we repurpose all this stuff, right? right? right? >> Yeah, in the same way that Robert >> Yeah, in the same way that Robert >> Yeah, in the same way that Robert Rodriguez made El Mariachi. Like you Rodriguez made El Mariachi. Like you Rodriguez made El Mariachi. Like you just like these incredible projects are just like these incredible projects are just like these incredible projects are are entirely, you know, on a very are entirely, you know, on a very are entirely, you know, on a very foundational level, foundational level, foundational level, like expressions that emerge from like expressions that emerge from like expressions that emerge from constraints. Constraints are the very constraints. Constraints are the very constraints. Constraints are the very essence of what gives birth to these essence of what gives birth to these essence of what gives birth to these timeless works. Absolutely. timeless works. Absolutely. timeless works. Absolutely. >> And yet culturally, you know, we think, >> And yet culturally, you know, we think, >> And yet culturally, you know, we think, "Well, okay, you did that, but now you "Well, okay, you did that, but now you "Well, okay, you did that, but now you have the big budget. You're going to have the big budget. You're going to have the big budget. You're going to make the movie." And then you make some make the movie." And then you make some make the movie." And then you make some giant movie, and it's terrible. giant movie, and it's terrible. giant movie, and it's terrible. >> Yeah. Yeah. And I I think that that >> Yeah. Yeah. And I I think that that >> Yeah. Yeah. And I I think that that testifies to the fact that we kind of testifies to the fact that we kind of testifies to the fact that we kind of can't do this kind of thinking unless can't do this kind of thinking unless can't do this kind of thinking unless we're forced. We can force ourselves, we're forced. We can force ourselves, we're forced. We can force ourselves, right? We can self-impose constraints. right? We can self-impose constraints. right? We can self-impose constraints. But without them, we do the path of But without them, we do the path of But without them, we do the path of least resistance thing. Like we we we least resistance thing. Like we we we least resistance thing. Like we we we don't think about how we could use all don't think about how we could use all don't think about how we could use all the different materials around us and the different materials around us and the different materials around us and use other things unless we're forced to. use other things unless we're forced to. use other things unless we're forced to. Right. Life is hard, and for most Right. Life is hard, and for most Right. Life is hard, and for most people, these constraints are imposed people, these constraints are imposed people, these constraints are imposed upon us. You know, you could take the upon us. You know, you could take the upon us. You know, you could take the case of an author with a publishing case of an author with a publishing case of an author with a publishing deadline, but in the in the context of a deadline, but in the in the context of a deadline, but in the in the context of a person with their everyday job, they're person with their everyday job, they're person with their everyday job, they're constantly, you know, being told what constantly, you know, being told what constantly, you know, being told what they can't do and there's guardrails they can't do and there's guardrails they can't do and there's guardrails everywhere. Like that's the average everywhere. Like that's the average everywhere. Like that's the average person, you know, daily experience. But person, you know, daily experience. But person, you know, daily experience. But if you look at an artist or just even a if you look at an artist or just even a if you look at an artist or just even a musician who has musician who has musician who has a keyboard. Like today, you could do a keyboard. Like today, you could do a keyboard. Like today, you could do there's just an infinite number of there's just an infinite number of there's just an infinite number of sounds that that thing could make, sounds that that thing could make, sounds that that thing could make, right? And that essentially is right? And that essentially is right? And that essentially is paralyzing. And so you have to paralyzing. And so you have to paralyzing. And so you have to volunteer, in the same way that you have volunteer, in the same way that you have volunteer, in the same way that you have to sign up for a marathon or like go out to sign up for a marathon or like go out to sign up for a marathon or like go out of your way to like do something that's of your way to like do something that's of your way to like do something that's difficult. difficult. difficult. The onus is on the individual to take The onus is on the individual to take The onus is on the individual to take responsibility for imposing those responsibility for imposing those responsibility for imposing those constraints and that's difficult. constraints and that's difficult. constraints and that's difficult. >> It's very difficult. And to your point >> It's very difficult. And to your point >> It's very difficult. And to your point about the kind of typical person's about the kind of typical person's about the kind of typical person's everyday experience, I should say everyday experience, I should say everyday experience, I should say I wrote a book about how constraints can I wrote a book about how constraints can I wrote a book about how constraints can be useful and why we undervalue them, be useful and why we undervalue them, be useful and why we undervalue them, but it is also clear in creativity but it is also clear in creativity but it is also clear in creativity research that when you if you prescribe research that when you if you prescribe research that when you if you prescribe what someone has to do and basically how what someone has to do and basically how what someone has to do and basically how they have to do it, that that can be they have to do it, that that can be they have to do it, that that can be stifling. Like stifling. Like stifling. Like if you're telling them No agency with if you're telling them No agency with if you're telling them No agency with >> constraints in place and the person >> constraints in place and the person >> constraints in place and the person says, says, says, "I can't possibly surprise myself." That "I can't possibly surprise myself." That "I can't possibly surprise myself." That means they're in a bad spot, right? You means they're in a bad spot, right? You means they're in a bad spot, right? You cuz you There needs to be enough room cuz you There needs to be enough room cuz you There needs to be enough room for them to do something surprising, for them to do something surprising, for them to do something surprising, basically. basically. basically. But you're right. I think in a lot of But you're right. I think in a lot of But you're right. I think in a lot of life right now, it's it's incumbent upon life right now, it's it's incumbent upon life right now, it's it's incumbent upon us to to to impose useful constraints us to to to impose useful constraints us to to to impose useful constraints because everything is so because everything is so because everything is so open and there's so much choice and so open and there's so much choice and so open and there's so much choice and so much optionality and and and all this much optionality and and and all this much optionality and and and all this kind of stuff. kind of stuff. kind of stuff. >> So make the use case for the average >> So make the use case for the average >> So make the use case for the average person. I'm not an artist. I'm not a person. I'm not an artist. I'm not a person. I'm not an artist. I'm not a musician. I'm not, you know, a sculptor musician. I'm not, you know, a sculptor musician. I'm not, you know, a sculptor like like Why is this relevant to me and like like Why is this relevant to me and like like Why is this relevant to me and how is it of practical use in my daily how is it of practical use in my daily how is it of practical use in my daily life? I go to my job and, you know, my life? I go to my job and, you know, my life? I go to my job and, you know, my life's, you know, already hurried and life's, you know, already hurried and life's, you know, already hurried and insane and you know, I'm just trying to insane and you know, I'm just trying to insane and you know, I'm just trying to level up a little bit here. Like how level up a little bit here. Like how level up a little bit here. Like how does this actually work? So when I think does this actually work? So when I think does this actually work? So when I think about constraints that I've applied to about constraints that I've applied to about constraints that I've applied to myself, I think of this acronym BCS in myself, I think of this acronym BCS in myself, I think of this acronym BCS in my head, which is B is batching your my head, which is B is batching your my head, which is B is batching your work, so doing work in in blocks so that work, so doing work in in blocks so that work, so doing work in in blocks so that you're mono-tasking in specific blocks you're mono-tasking in specific blocks you're mono-tasking in specific blocks instead of multi-tasking. C is instead of multi-tasking. C is instead of multi-tasking. C is commitments visible, make all of your commitments visible, make all of your commitments visible, make all of your current commitments visible, posted current commitments visible, posted current commitments visible, posted notes, and then you'll probably realize notes, and then you'll probably realize notes, and then you'll probably realize you're overcommitted and look for things you're overcommitted and look for things you're overcommitted and look for things that maybe you can take away. And S that maybe you can take away. And S that maybe you can take away. And S satisficing, setting good enough rules satisficing, setting good enough rules satisficing, setting good enough rules for your decision that once they're for your decision that once they're for your decision that once they're reached, you make the decision and and reached, you make the decision and and reached, you make the decision and and don't look back. So, first batch some of don't look back. So, first batch some of don't look back. So, first batch some of your work if you can, like your work if you can, like your work if you can, like because everything's competing for your because everything's competing for your because everything's competing for your attention now, if you're not structuring attention now, if you're not structuring attention now, if you're not structuring your attention, then your attention, then your attention, then algorithms are going to structure it for algorithms are going to structure it for algorithms are going to structure it for you, basically. you, basically. you, basically. And so, if you can batch some of And so, if you can batch some of And so, if you can batch some of [clears throat] your work where [clears throat] your work where [clears throat] your work where you're doing a you're mono-tasking for you're doing a you're mono-tasking for you're doing a you're mono-tasking for blocks during the day. So, I I write a blocks during the day. So, I I write a blocks during the day. So, I I write a lot about the research of this woman lot about the research of this woman lot about the research of this woman named Gloria Mark who studies attention named Gloria Mark who studies attention named Gloria Mark who studies attention span and focus at work, and it's been span and focus at work, and it's been span and focus at work, and it's been getting worse, right? Like 20 years ago getting worse, right? Like 20 years ago getting worse, right? Like 20 years ago when she started, people would spend when she started, people would spend when she started, people would spend about 3 minutes on a task before about 3 minutes on a task before about 3 minutes on a task before flipping. Now, it's about 45 seconds, flipping. Now, it's about 45 seconds, flipping. Now, it's about 45 seconds, basically. Yeah, I mean, say that again. basically. Yeah, I mean, say that again. basically. Yeah, I mean, say that again. The average person in their job is The average person in their job is The average person in their job is shifting their attention every 45 shifting their attention every 45 shifting their attention every 45 seconds. seconds. seconds. >> Yeah, switching what's on their screen >> Yeah, switching what's on their screen >> Yeah, switching what's on their screen every 45 seconds, basically. And and every 45 seconds, basically. And and every 45 seconds, basically. And and checking email about 77 times a day on checking email about 77 times a day on checking email about 77 times a day on average. And what she found is that the average. And what she found is that the average. And what she found is that the number of switches you make number of switches you make number of switches you make predicts poorer productivity at the end predicts poorer productivity at the end predicts poorer productivity at the end of the day, but also, you know, she was of the day, but also, you know, she was of the day, but also, you know, she was started measuring heart rate variability started measuring heart rate variability started measuring heart rate variability and it predicts stress also at the end and it predicts stress also at the end and it predicts stress also at the end of the day. There's now some of the day. There's now some of the day. There's now some budding evidence showing that it impacts budding evidence showing that it impacts budding evidence showing that it impacts immune function if you're toggling a immune function if you're toggling a immune function if you're toggling a lot, like it's a stressful thing to do, lot, like it's a stressful thing to do, lot, like it's a stressful thing to do, but I don't think people realize that. but I don't think people realize that. but I don't think people realize that. So, if you can batch, you can check all So, if you can batch, you can check all So, if you can batch, you can check all those emails, those emails, those emails, but can you check them in one block or but can you check them in one block or but can you check them in one block or two blocks so you're not toggling two blocks so you're not toggling two blocks so you're not toggling between things? Like, if you took all between things? Like, if you took all between things? Like, if you took all the stuff you have to do for the day, the stuff you have to do for the day, the stuff you have to do for the day, could you try to organize it into these could you try to organize it into these could you try to organize it into these blocks where that's the only thing blocks where that's the only thing blocks where that's the only thing you're doing? you're doing? you're doing? And it should be better for your And it should be better for your And it should be better for your productivity and your and your stress productivity and your and your stress productivity and your and your stress level and your attention. level and your attention. level and your attention. Some of her research was I think some of Some of her research was I think some of Some of her research was I think some of the scariest stuff when I was the scariest stuff when I was the scariest stuff when I was doing the book, because one of the doing the book, because one of the doing the book, because one of the things she found was that things she found was that things she found was that our attention spans get trained. So, if our attention spans get trained. So, if our attention spans get trained. So, if you're interrupted by notifications or you're interrupted by notifications or you're interrupted by notifications or other people or whatever all day long, other people or whatever all day long, other people or whatever all day long, you become accustomed to a certain level you become accustomed to a certain level you become accustomed to a certain level of cadence of interruption. And so, then of cadence of interruption. And so, then of cadence of interruption. And so, then if you say, "Now I have to focus." and if you say, "Now I have to focus." and if you say, "Now I have to focus." and you remove the phone or whatever it is, you remove the phone or whatever it is, you remove the phone or whatever it is, you will self-interrupt at the cadence you will self-interrupt at the cadence you will self-interrupt at the cadence to which you've become accustomed with to which you've become accustomed with to which you've become accustomed with intrusive thoughts intrusive thoughts intrusive thoughts in order to to maintain that cadence of in order to to maintain that cadence of in order to to maintain that cadence of interruption. I've noticed that in my interruption. I've noticed that in my interruption. I've noticed that in my own That's scary. own That's scary. own That's scary. >> own brain. Yeah, like I will like, >> own brain. Yeah, like I will like, >> own brain. Yeah, like I will like, "Okay, I've locked the phone away and "Okay, I've locked the phone away and "Okay, I've locked the phone away and I'm ready to like work on the book." I'm ready to like work on the book." I'm ready to like work on the book." And then I'm just, you know, I'm so And then I'm just, you know, I'm so And then I'm just, you know, I'm so acclimated to those, acclimated to those, acclimated to those, you know, minute constant interruptions. you know, minute constant interruptions. you know, minute constant interruptions. >> It's like we have some internal >> It's like we have some internal >> It's like we have some internal distraction barometer that's like gets distraction barometer that's like gets distraction barometer that's like gets set. set. set. The good news is you can start to make a The good news is you can start to make a The good news is you can start to make a difference in a few days of like difference in a few days of like difference in a few days of like blocking work so that you're not blocking work so that you're not blocking work so that you're not toggling as much. And also doing what's toggling as much. And also doing what's toggling as much. And also doing what's called cognitive outsourcing, which called cognitive outsourcing, which called cognitive outsourcing, which means just give a pad next to you and means just give a pad next to you and means just give a pad next to you and when that intrusive thought comes in, when that intrusive thought comes in, when that intrusive thought comes in, just write it down so it's not stuck in just write it down so it's not stuck in just write it down so it's not stuck in your head. your head. your head. So, the BCS, the three main tips, C was So, the BCS, the three main tips, C was So, the BCS, the three main tips, C was commitments visible. Like I said, make commitments visible. Like I said, make commitments visible. Like I said, make all of your current commitments visible. all of your current commitments visible. all of your current commitments visible. So, So, So, we have a hardwired bias humans do we have a hardwired bias humans do we have a hardwired bias humans do called subtractive neglect bias. So, we called subtractive neglect bias. So, we called subtractive neglect bias. So, we overlook solutions that involve taking overlook solutions that involve taking overlook solutions that involve taking stuff away. stuff away. stuff away. Maybe this is because for most of our Maybe this is because for most of our Maybe this is because for most of our evolutionary history, we didn't have to evolutionary history, we didn't have to evolutionary history, we didn't have to worry about having too much. We had to worry about having too much. We had to worry about having too much. We had to worry about having too little. worry about having too little. worry about having too little. But so, we always reach for additive But so, we always reach for additive But so, we always reach for additive solutions. And so, if you can make all solutions. And so, if you can make all solutions. And so, if you can make all of your commitments visible, you'll of your commitments visible, you'll of your commitments visible, you'll probably see that you're over subscribed probably see that you're over subscribed probably see that you're over subscribed and can say, "Which are the ones I and can say, "Which are the ones I and can say, "Which are the ones I really need to focus on now?" Put the really need to focus on now?" Put the really need to focus on now?" Put the other ones other ones other ones other ones later. So, stop starting and other ones later. So, stop starting and other ones later. So, stop starting and start finishing like don't start a new start finishing like don't start a new start finishing like don't start a new one until you've you finished one. So, one until you've you finished one. So, one until you've you finished one. So, get the post-it notes out and write get the post-it notes out and write get the post-it notes out and write these things down and put them on your these things down and put them on your these things down and put them on your wall and have a, you know, kind of come wall and have a, you know, kind of come wall and have a, you know, kind of come to Jesus moment. to Jesus moment. to Jesus moment. >> That's right. And then the S in the BCS >> That's right. And then the S in the BCS >> That's right. And then the S in the BCS is for satisficing rule. So, satisficing is for satisficing rule. So, satisficing is for satisficing rule. So, satisficing is a term uh coined by is a term uh coined by is a term uh coined by a Herbert Simon, who I think was one of a Herbert Simon, who I think was one of a Herbert Simon, who I think was one of the most brilliant people who ever the most brilliant people who ever the most brilliant people who ever lived. Political scientist trained by lived. Political scientist trained by lived. Political scientist trained by training. training. training. Did the first AI demonstrations. He won Did the first AI demonstrations. He won Did the first AI demonstrations. He won the highest award in computer science, the highest award in computer science, the highest award in computer science, won the highest award in psychology, is won the highest award in psychology, is won the highest award in psychology, is one of the founders of cognitive one of the founders of cognitive one of the founders of cognitive psychology, then won the Nobel Prize in psychology, then won the Nobel Prize in psychology, then won the Nobel Prize in economics for good measure. And economics for good measure. And economics for good measure. And he coined this term satisficing, he coined this term satisficing, he coined this term satisficing, which means instead of trying to which means instead of trying to which means instead of trying to optimize, it's like the the antithesis optimize, it's like the the antithesis optimize, it's like the the antithesis of optimizing. He said humans of optimizing. He said humans of optimizing. He said humans can try to optimize, but they can't can try to optimize, but they can't can try to optimize, but they can't because we have finite brains, we can't because we have finite brains, we can't because we have finite brains, we can't evaluate all the options, we don't know evaluate all the options, we don't know evaluate all the options, we don't know all the repercussions. all the repercussions. all the repercussions. So, we have to come up with shortcuts. So, we have to come up with shortcuts. So, we have to come up with shortcuts. And in fact, we should do that And in fact, we should do that And in fact, we should do that proactively proactively proactively because then you save cognitive because then you save cognitive because then you save cognitive bandwidth for decisions, bandwidth for decisions, bandwidth for decisions, and you end up happier. So, and you end up happier. So, and you end up happier. So, coming from his work, coming from his work, coming from his work, researchers developed a researchers developed a researchers developed a satisficer-maximizer satisficer-maximizer satisficer-maximizer scale. Maximizer means you're always scale. Maximizer means you're always scale. Maximizer means you're always trying to optimize. We'd probably call trying to optimize. We'd probably call trying to optimize. We'd probably call it an optimizer now. it an optimizer now. it an optimizer now. And it turns out it's almost always a And it turns out it's almost always a And it turns out it's almost always a bad thing to be. bad thing to be. bad thing to be. Less happy with their decisions, Less happy with their decisions, Less happy with their decisions, maximizers are maximizers are maximizers are less happy with their lives, they're less happy with their lives, they're less happy with their lives, they're more prone to regret. Even when they more prone to regret. Even when they more prone to regret. Even when they make a good decision, they don't feel as make a good decision, they don't feel as make a good decision, they don't feel as good about it. good about it. good about it. And And And there's evidence that it's on the rise there's evidence that it's on the rise there's evidence that it's on the rise as a as a as a quality, maybe because it as a as a as a quality, maybe because it as a as a as a quality, maybe because it you can infinitely compare your choices you can infinitely compare your choices you can infinitely compare your choices now to so many things. now to so many things. now to so many things. Whereas satisficers will set good enough Whereas satisficers will set good enough Whereas satisficers will set good enough criteria for a decision ahead of time criteria for a decision ahead of time criteria for a decision ahead of time saying, saying, saying, "Here are the three things that "Here are the three things that "Here are the three things that need to be met by this decision. Once need to be met by this decision. Once need to be met by this decision. Once those are met, I go with it." Instead of those are met, I go with it." Instead of those are met, I go with it." Instead of endlessly evaluating options. So, I endlessly evaluating options. So, I endlessly evaluating options. So, I think in this world of infinite choice, think in this world of infinite choice, think in this world of infinite choice, where consumer choice has multiplied a where consumer choice has multiplied a where consumer choice has multiplied a hundred millionfold compared to before hundred millionfold compared to before hundred millionfold compared to before the the the Industrial Revolution, Industrial Revolution, Industrial Revolution, that setting these kind of rules for that setting these kind of rules for that setting these kind of rules for good enough and saying once I surpass good enough and saying once I surpass good enough and saying once I surpass that, maybe that'll go to outstanding, that, maybe that'll go to outstanding, that, maybe that'll go to outstanding, but once I surpass good enough, but once I surpass good enough, but once I surpass good enough, done with that decision. Otherwise, done with that decision. Otherwise, done with that decision. Otherwise, you'll constantly fall prey to something you'll constantly fall prey to something you'll constantly fall prey to something called Fredkin's Paradox, which is we called Fredkin's Paradox, which is we called Fredkin's Paradox, which is we spend the most time and energy on the spend the most time and energy on the spend the most time and energy on the least important decisions because we're least important decisions because we're least important decisions because we're having trouble telling the difference having trouble telling the difference having trouble telling the difference between the options, between the options, between the options, which means which means which means it probably doesn't matter if we spend it probably doesn't matter if we spend it probably doesn't matter if we spend more energy because we can't tell the more energy because we can't tell the more energy because we can't tell the difference, but that's where we end up difference, but that's where we end up difference, but that's where we end up spending the most time and energy in spending the most time and energy in spending the most time and energy in agonizing because the options are agonizing because the options are agonizing because the options are similar, which also means similar, which also means similar, which also means we could probably just choose and and we could probably just choose and and we could probably just choose and and and wouldn't make much difference. and wouldn't make much difference. and wouldn't make much difference. The distillation of that idea is The distillation of that idea is The distillation of that idea is essentially that perfectionism is toxic, essentially that perfectionism is toxic, essentially that perfectionism is toxic, uh whether you call it optimization or uh whether you call it optimization or uh whether you call it optimization or just this, you know, really unhealthy just this, you know, really unhealthy just this, you know, really unhealthy relationship with holding yourself to a relationship with holding yourself to a relationship with holding yourself to a certain standard that's unachievable. certain standard that's unachievable. certain standard that's unachievable. It's a It's a personal violence. It's a It's a personal violence. It's a It's a personal violence. And this idea of of good enough being And this idea of of good enough being And this idea of of good enough being the ultimate life hack. Yeah. It It the ultimate life hack. Yeah. It It the ultimate life hack. Yeah. It It sounds And that runs contrary to this sounds And that runs contrary to this sounds And that runs contrary to this whole like, you know, kind of like whole like, you know, kind of like whole like, you know, kind of like self-optimization self-optimization self-optimization uh culture. And and it sounds bad uh culture. And and it sounds bad uh culture. And and it sounds bad because like when I think about anything because like when I think about anything because like when I think about anything I'm doing, am I aiming for good enough? I'm doing, am I aiming for good enough? I'm doing, am I aiming for good enough? No, I'm not aiming for good enough. You No, I'm not aiming for good enough. You No, I'm not aiming for good enough. You know, you're aiming for great. Well, know, you're aiming for great. Well, know, you're aiming for great. Well, that's actually not true. that's actually not true. that's actually not true. I started a newsletter a few years ago I started a newsletter a few years ago I started a newsletter a few years ago and that has actually turned out to be and that has actually turned out to be and that has actually turned out to be and I started doing some like a form of and I started doing some like a form of and I started doing some like a form of dancing class where I was a total dancing class where I was a total dancing class where I was a total beginner. beginner. beginner. And one of the reasons these have been And one of the reasons these have been And one of the reasons these have been very important good enough exercises in very important good enough exercises in very important good enough exercises in my life. So, when I'm writing a book, if my life. So, when I'm writing a book, if my life. So, when I'm writing a book, if I say it this has to be like a nine or I say it this has to be like a nine or I say it this has to be like a nine or 10 on the effort level, a newsletter, if 10 on the effort level, a newsletter, if 10 on the effort level, a newsletter, if I hit six and a half, ready to send. I hit six and a half, ready to send. I hit six and a half, ready to send. And that's been a really important And that's been a really important And that's been a really important exercise for me in satisficing and exercise for me in satisficing and exercise for me in satisficing and saying some things can be good enough. saying some things can be good enough. saying some things can be good enough. And And that means sometimes they'll go And And that means sometimes they'll go And And that means sometimes they'll go to great, like it'll come out that way. to great, like it'll come out that way. to great, like it'll come out that way. But once I hit good enough and it goes But once I hit good enough and it goes But once I hit good enough and it goes out and then the sun rises again out and then the sun rises again out and then the sun rises again tomorrow, tomorrow, tomorrow, and I think it's helped and I think it's helped and I think it's helped dilute some of my own maximizing dilute some of my own maximizing dilute some of my own maximizing tendencies. tendencies. tendencies. So, it kind of goes against my natural So, it kind of goes against my natural So, it kind of goes against my natural proclivities. Like I think I'm more proclivities. Like I think I'm more proclivities. Like I think I'm more naturally a maximizer, but I've naturally a maximizer, but I've naturally a maximizer, but I've I've become much more proactive in I've become much more proactive in I've become much more proactive in setting out criteria for good enough and setting out criteria for good enough and setting out criteria for good enough and saying, "Look, when that when that's saying, "Look, when that when that's saying, "Look, when that when that's met, I'm okay to move to the next met, I'm okay to move to the next met, I'm okay to move to the next thing." That's similar to the Seth Godin thing." That's similar to the Seth Godin thing." That's similar to the Seth Godin kind of idea of like you have to ship kind of idea of like you have to ship kind of idea of like you have to ship your work, right? Like he's just he's your work, right? Like he's just he's your work, right? Like he's just he's constantly These books are coming out constantly These books are coming out constantly These books are coming out all the time with him and he writes a all the time with him and he writes a all the time with him and he writes a blog post every day and he just moves blog post every day and he just moves blog post every day and he just moves on, but he's so focused on the shipping on, but he's so focused on the shipping on, but he's so focused on the shipping part, like, you know, and part, like, you know, and part, like, you know, and whether it's a book or, you know, whether it's a book or, you know, whether it's a book or, you know, somebody who's writing a song or trying somebody who's writing a song or trying somebody who's writing a song or trying to come up with a comedy routine, you to come up with a comedy routine, you to come up with a comedy routine, you know, we just get in our own way and we know, we just get in our own way and we know, we just get in our own way and we don't want to don't want to don't want to put it up on its feet until it's perfect put it up on its feet until it's perfect put it up on its feet until it's perfect and we then never end up shipping and we then never end up shipping and we then never end up shipping anything as a result of that kind of anything as a result of that kind of anything as a result of that kind of self-upbraiding self-upbraiding self-upbraiding of our, you know, the quality of our of our, you know, the quality of our of our, you know, the quality of our work product. I I got that paralysis work product. I I got that paralysis work product. I I got that paralysis kind of after Range because it ended up kind of after Range because it ended up kind of after Range because it ended up being more successful than I expected being more successful than I expected being more successful than I expected and I had left my normal day job to and I had left my normal day job to and I had left my normal day job to finish it because I I I was finish it because I I I was finish it because I I I was I was a traditional investigative I was a traditional investigative I was a traditional investigative reporter at the time and I was just not reporter at the time and I was just not reporter at the time and I was just not able to get both things done at the same able to get both things done at the same able to get both things done at the same time. time. time. And so suddenly I didn't have this place And so suddenly I didn't have this place And so suddenly I didn't have this place where I was writing constantly where I was writing constantly where I was writing constantly and had this one bigger work that I was and had this one bigger work that I was and had this one bigger work that I was associated with and I kind of felt like associated with and I kind of felt like associated with and I kind of felt like oh gosh, anything short of that means oh gosh, anything short of that means oh gosh, anything short of that means I'm going backward I'm going backward I'm going backward and I did have a little bit of paralysis and I did have a little bit of paralysis and I did have a little bit of paralysis for a little while. for a little while. for a little while. And that's when I started the newsletter And that's when I started the newsletter And that's when I started the newsletter where good enough is good enough and I where good enough is good enough and I where good enough is good enough and I think that was really really helpful for think that was really really helpful for think that was really really helpful for me. Yeah, how can you get off the dime? me. Yeah, how can you get off the dime? me. Yeah, how can you get off the dime? Lower the stakes. I'm a huge fan of low Lower the stakes. I'm a huge fan of low Lower the stakes. I'm a huge fan of low stakes practice. In thinking about the new book, uh I was In thinking about the new book, uh I was this is such a trivial example, but um this is such a trivial example, but um this is such a trivial example, but um I think you've seen like I've been I think you've seen like I've been I think you've seen like I've been posting these sort of daily morning gym, posting these sort of daily morning gym, posting these sort of daily morning gym, you know, like just holding myself you know, like just holding myself you know, like just holding myself accountable by like being in my home gym accountable by like being in my home gym accountable by like being in my home gym in the morning. in the morning. in the morning. Every time it's like 4:24 and it's at Every time it's like 4:24 and it's at Every time it's like 4:24 and it's at the crack [laughter] of dawn. the crack [laughter] of dawn. the crack [laughter] of dawn. And I keep saying like I'm just wake I And I keep saying like I'm just wake I And I keep saying like I'm just wake I wish I could sleep in more like I just I wish I could sleep in more like I just I wish I could sleep in more like I just I you know, like anyway, I'm just up at you know, like anyway, I'm just up at you know, like anyway, I'm just up at that hour so I might as well get in the that hour so I might as well get in the that hour so I might as well get in the gym. But it's you know, how can I turn gym. But it's you know, how can I turn gym. But it's you know, how can I turn this into a creative fun thing of like this into a creative fun thing of like this into a creative fun thing of like sharing this um sharing this um sharing this um through a through a unique lens through a through a unique lens through a through a unique lens as a creative exercise, not for any as a creative exercise, not for any as a creative exercise, not for any other reason than that, honestly. Almost other reason than that, honestly. Almost other reason than that, honestly. Almost like going on an artist date out of like going on an artist date out of like going on an artist date out of Julia Cameron's like the artist way Julia Cameron's like the artist way Julia Cameron's like the artist way book. Like this is my artist date. Yes, book. Like this is my artist date. Yes, book. Like this is my artist date. Yes, I'm in the gym, but like let me make I'm in the gym, but like let me make I'm in the gym, but like let me make this a fun creative thing with this a fun creative thing with this a fun creative thing with photography. photography. photography. One of the rules that I set for myself One of the rules that I set for myself One of the rules that I set for myself is like I'm going to take a picture of is like I'm going to take a picture of is like I'm going to take a picture of this LED clock, no matter what time it this LED clock, no matter what time it this LED clock, no matter what time it says. says. says. But But But I want that photo to be different every I want that photo to be different every I want that photo to be different every time. Like how can I get it, you know, a time. Like how can I get it, you know, a time. Like how can I get it, you know, a different angle on it or whatever and different angle on it or whatever and different angle on it or whatever and keep it interesting within the keep it interesting within the keep it interesting within the constraints of this shipping container, constraints of this shipping container, constraints of this shipping container, you know, kind of situation. So there's you know, kind of situation. So there's you know, kind of situation. So there's guardrails and walls, like there's only guardrails and walls, like there's only guardrails and walls, like there's only so many things I can do. The clock is so many things I can do. The clock is so many things I can do. The clock is there. How can I do How can I play with there. How can I do How can I play with there. How can I do How can I play with that and find new and interesting ways that and find new and interesting ways that and find new and interesting ways to photograph it? That's been really to photograph it? That's been really to photograph it? That's been really fun. That's not a silly example at all. fun. That's not a silly example at all. fun. That's not a silly example at all. I mean, that that's basically like what I mean, that that's basically like what I mean, that that's basically like what Picasso was often doing where he would Picasso was often doing where he would Picasso was often doing where he would do a whole bunch of versions of the same do a whole bunch of versions of the same do a whole bunch of versions of the same idea. It's like, this is the idea. Now idea. It's like, this is the idea. Now idea. It's like, this is the idea. Now I'm going to look at all these little I'm going to look at all these little I'm going to look at all these little tweaks that I can do on it. And in fact, tweaks that I can do on it. And in fact, tweaks that I can do on it. And in fact, that that that tinkering with something that you have tinkering with something that you have tinkering with something that you have already, instead of like creating already, instead of like creating already, instead of like creating something totally new, something totally new, something totally new, was synonymous with creativity for most was synonymous with creativity for most was synonymous with creativity for most of human history until the romantic of human history until the romantic of human history until the romantic period, basically in the late 18th period, basically in the late 18th period, basically in the late 18th century, where there was this sort of century, where there was this sort of century, where there was this sort of rebellion against enlightenment rebellion against enlightenment rebellion against enlightenment thinking, thinking, thinking, and that's That's when this idea of like and that's That's when this idea of like and that's That's when this idea of like the pure flashes of originality and the pure flashes of originality and the pure flashes of originality and genius and the and the so-called cult of genius and the and the so-called cult of genius and the and the so-called cult of the hero rose up. the hero rose up. the hero rose up. But that's That's not the real story of But that's That's not the real story of But that's That's not the real story of creativity. It's much more often creativity. It's much more often creativity. It's much more often taking something and and tweaking it and taking something and and tweaking it and taking something and and tweaking it and what can you do with all the I mean, what can you do with all the I mean, what can you do with all the I mean, I write about Shakespeare's work in the I write about Shakespeare's work in the I write about Shakespeare's work in the book. book. book. All copied. Like everything he was All copied. Like everything he was All copied. Like everything he was Romeo and Juliet, he adapted from this Romeo and Juliet, he adapted from this Romeo and Juliet, he adapted from this guy Arthur Brooke's epic poem, which was guy Arthur Brooke's epic poem, which was guy Arthur Brooke's epic poem, which was adapted from a bunch of other people. adapted from a bunch of other people. adapted from a bunch of other people. He almost took some exact lines, He almost took some exact lines, He almost took some exact lines, actually, Shakespeare did. actually, Shakespeare did. actually, Shakespeare did. And with King Lear, like he probably And with King Lear, like he probably And with King Lear, like he probably even acted in a different King Lear. He even acted in a different King Lear. He even acted in a different King Lear. He like changed one of the daughters' names like changed one of the daughters' names like changed one of the daughters' names from Cordelia to Cordelia. And he from Cordelia to Cordelia. And he from Cordelia to Cordelia. And he changed the ending and he made it his changed the ending and he made it his changed the ending and he made it his own. own. own. But it's like one of the most creative But it's like one of the most creative But it's like one of the most creative minds in history and he was always minds in history and he was always minds in history and he was always taking something that was there and taking something that was there and taking something that was there and seeing seeing seeing how can I make this my own? And so I how can I make this my own? And so I how can I make this my own? And so I think when we're thinking about think when we're thinking about think when we're thinking about creativity, creativity, creativity, the idea that it's these like free the idea that it's these like free the idea that it's these like free creations of the mind with no limits is creations of the mind with no limits is creations of the mind with no limits is is like a-historic. You know, it's it's is like a-historic. You know, it's it's is like a-historic. You know, it's it's much more often much more often much more often building on something that's already building on something that's already building on something that's already there. And so, I think that's how that's there. And so, I think that's how that's there. And so, I think that's how that's how people should think of it. And And how people should think of it. And And how people should think of it. And And by the way, I was telling you before, I by the way, I was telling you before, I by the way, I was telling you before, I think your morning posts have been think your morning posts have been think your morning posts have been important to me personally in a important to me personally in a important to me personally in a different way. I don't know if we can different way. I don't know if we can different way. I don't know if we can get into that, but I'm like, I don't get into that, but I'm like, I don't get into that, but I'm like, I don't know why anyone would care about this. know why anyone would care about this. know why anyone would care about this. But anyway, But anyway, But anyway, um yeah, a couple things in what you um yeah, a couple things in what you um yeah, a couple things in what you just shared. First of all, like upending just shared. First of all, like upending just shared. First of all, like upending the genius myth. Um this is This is the genius myth. Um this is This is the genius myth. Um this is This is just, you know, total fabrication. like just, you know, total fabrication. like just, you know, total fabrication. like Anytime you see some great man theory, Anytime you see some great man theory, Anytime you see some great man theory, you know, there's legions of people who you know, there's legions of people who you know, there's legions of people who supported that and probably a lot of supported that and probably a lot of supported that and probably a lot of other people who were dancing around the other people who were dancing around the other people who were dancing around the same idea at the same time and this same idea at the same time and this same idea at the same time and this person got all the credit. But beneath person got all the credit. But beneath person got all the credit. But beneath the surface at the same time, like all the surface at the same time, like all the surface at the same time, like all great artists steal. great artists steal. great artists steal. But the interesting But the interesting But the interesting um kind of ripple that you offer in the um kind of ripple that you offer in the um kind of ripple that you offer in the book is this notion of, book is this notion of, book is this notion of, you know, taking the new idea, but you know, taking the new idea, but you know, taking the new idea, but contextualizing it in something contextualizing it in something contextualizing it in something familiar. And you use like MLK and and familiar. And you use like MLK and and familiar. And you use like MLK and and how he, you know, kind of was borrowing how he, you know, kind of was borrowing how he, you know, kind of was borrowing from white preachers uh sermons and from white preachers uh sermons and from white preachers uh sermons and making them his own so that there was making them his own so that there was making them his own so that there was something familiar something familiar something familiar like in the way that Shakespeare would like in the way that Shakespeare would like in the way that Shakespeare would borrow and create this like capsule that borrow and create this like capsule that borrow and create this like capsule that was relatable for an audience, but then was relatable for an audience, but then was relatable for an audience, but then doing your own unique thing within that. doing your own unique thing within that. doing your own unique thing within that. That's right. Yeah, this this chapter is That's right. Yeah, this this chapter is That's right. Yeah, this this chapter is sort of about the tension between sort of about the tension between sort of about the tension between creativity and originality. And creativity and originality. And creativity and originality. And if you want people to come along with a if you want people to come along with a if you want people to come along with a new idea, the best way to do it is to new idea, the best way to do it is to new idea, the best way to do it is to ground it in something that's really ground it in something that's really ground it in something that's really familiar with them to them. If it's too familiar with them to them. If it's too familiar with them to them. If it's too original, it kind of doesn't work for original, it kind of doesn't work for original, it kind of doesn't work for people. And you can see this all over people. And you can see this all over people. And you can see this all over the place in product design, by the way. the place in product design, by the way. the place in product design, by the way. It's like why It's like why It's like why early electric vehicles early electric vehicles early electric vehicles had the charging port where the had the charging port where the had the charging port where the non-existent gas tank is with a thing non-existent gas tank is with a thing non-existent gas tank is with a thing that looks like a gas hose, right? It's that looks like a gas hose, right? It's that looks like a gas hose, right? It's to to to to to to convey to people what the function is convey to people what the function is convey to people what the function is compared to something they're used to. compared to something they're used to. compared to something they're used to. Or when Edison first electrified New Or when Edison first electrified New Or when Edison first electrified New York City, he kept the bulbs at a York City, he kept the bulbs at a York City, he kept the bulbs at a certain dimness so it would look like certain dimness so it would look like certain dimness so it would look like gas and kept lamp shades even though he gas and kept lamp shades even though he gas and kept lamp shades even though he didn't need them so it feel still like didn't need them so it feel still like didn't need them so it feel still like the gas light people were used to. the gas light people were used to. the gas light people were used to. Or folders on your computer, right? Or folders on your computer, right? Or folders on your computer, right? They're not really folders, but that They're not really folders, but that They're not really folders, but that tells you what they do. tells you what they do. tells you what they do. With MLK, he was trying to get people to With MLK, he was trying to get people to With MLK, he was trying to get people to come along with a really radical idea, come along with a really radical idea, come along with a really radical idea, which is which is which is uh he was trying to get white uh he was trying to get white uh he was trying to get white Protestants to accept um the black Protestants to accept um the black Protestants to accept um the black demand for equality, which was a radical demand for equality, which was a radical demand for equality, which was a radical idea and and to get involved in in idea and and to get involved in in idea and and to get involved in in helping it along. helping it along. helping it along. And so he borrowed what he what he was And so he borrowed what he what he was And so he borrowed what he what he was used to coming up from the gospel used to coming up from the gospel used to coming up from the gospel preaching tradition preaching tradition preaching tradition where originality was seen as suspect, where originality was seen as suspect, where originality was seen as suspect, basically. You were supposed to preach basically. You were supposed to preach basically. You were supposed to preach to the choir. Like sometimes people use to the choir. Like sometimes people use to the choir. Like sometimes people use that phrase preaching to the choir as a that phrase preaching to the choir as a that phrase preaching to the choir as a negative thing. Yeah, yeah, yeah. You negative thing. Yeah, yeah, yeah. You negative thing. Yeah, yeah, yeah. You wanted to preach to the choir. They they wanted to preach to the choir. They they wanted to preach to the choir. They they expected a version of the hits. And so expected a version of the hits. And so expected a version of the hits. And so he would give them a version of the he would give them a version of the he would give them a version of the hits. He would borrow, but he would put hits. He would borrow, but he would put hits. He would borrow, but he would put his own spin on it. So, even the let his own spin on it. So, even the let his own spin on it. So, even the let freedom ring repetition from his most freedom ring repetition from his most freedom ring repetition from his most famous speech was borrowed from a speech famous speech was borrowed from a speech famous speech was borrowed from a speech by his friend Archibald Carey who by his friend Archibald Carey who by his friend Archibald Carey who borrowed that from a speech by the borrowed that from a speech by the borrowed that from a speech by the activist investigative journalist Ida B. activist investigative journalist Ida B. activist investigative journalist Ida B. Wells. Wells. Wells. It was this culture of repurposing It was this culture of repurposing It was this culture of repurposing things people were familiar with things people were familiar with things people were familiar with and then kind of and then kind of and then kind of shoehorning your unique message into it. shoehorning your unique message into it. shoehorning your unique message into it. So, what MLK would do So, what MLK would do So, what MLK would do something called typology where something called typology where something called typology where he would find a story throughout he would find a story throughout he would find a story throughout history. He'd start with something that history. He'd start with something that history. He'd start with something that the audience could not disagree with, the audience could not disagree with, the audience could not disagree with, right? The story of right? The story of right? The story of uh Moses as a liberator. Can't disagree uh Moses as a liberator. Can't disagree uh Moses as a liberator. Can't disagree with that, right? Foundational story. with that, right? Foundational story. with that, right? Foundational story. And then he'd move to And then he'd move to And then he'd move to uh Abraham Lincoln. uh Abraham Lincoln. uh Abraham Lincoln. Liberator like Moses. And then he'd move Liberator like Moses. And then he'd move Liberator like Moses. And then he'd move to Gandhi, liberator from colonialism. to Gandhi, liberator from colonialism. to Gandhi, liberator from colonialism. And then he'd move to And then he'd move to And then he'd move to now it's your turn, right? So, he tells now it's your turn, right? So, he tells now it's your turn, right? So, he tells these stories that everyone totally these stories that everyone totally these stories that everyone totally agrees with. And then he would say, "And agrees with. And then he would say, "And agrees with. And then he would say, "And by the way, here's how it's going on by the way, here's how it's going on by the way, here's how it's going on right now and what you can participate right now and what you can participate right now and what you can participate in." And by that point this in." And by that point this in." And by that point this uncomfortable idea looks like it's just uncomfortable idea looks like it's just uncomfortable idea looks like it's just a lineage from a lineage from a lineage from Moses to Abraham Lincoln to Gandhi to Moses to Abraham Lincoln to Gandhi to Moses to Abraham Lincoln to Gandhi to like this the Supreme Court um like this the Supreme Court um like this the Supreme Court um and so he smuggled these really radical and so he smuggled these really radical and so he smuggled these really radical ideas by grounding them in incredibly ideas by grounding them in incredibly ideas by grounding them in incredibly familiar material. Sometimes so familiar familiar material. Sometimes so familiar familiar material. Sometimes so familiar that, you know, that, you know, that, you know, like some analogies he used to it get like some analogies he used to it get like some analogies he used to it get voted that they shouldn't be used voted that they shouldn't be used voted that they shouldn't be used anymore because they've been so overused anymore because they've been so overused anymore because they've been so overused and things like that. But But that's and things like that. But But that's and things like that. But But that's kind of the kind of the kind of the the real history of getting people to the real history of getting people to the real history of getting people to accept creative ideas is grounding them accept creative ideas is grounding them accept creative ideas is grounding them in in in something really familiar. in in in something really familiar. in in in something really familiar. Yeah, you get buy-in by sharing the Yeah, you get buy-in by sharing the Yeah, you get buy-in by sharing the familiar and you're engendering trust familiar and you're engendering trust familiar and you're engendering trust uh before you kind of hit them with the uh before you kind of hit them with the uh before you kind of hit them with the novel idea within that kind of like novel idea within that kind of like novel idea within that kind of like nutshell that nutshell that nutshell that um people are already comfortable with. um people are already comfortable with. um people are already comfortable with. Totally. And And whatever it is, Totally. And And whatever it is, Totally. And And whatever it is, grounding it like the visions for change grounding it like the visions for change grounding it like the visions for change you know, are are are more compelling. I you know, are are are more compelling. I you know, are are are more compelling. I think this is Adam Grant said it this think this is Adam Grant said it this think this is Adam Grant said it this way once that I resonated with me. way once that I resonated with me. way once that I resonated with me. Visions for change are more compelling Visions for change are more compelling Visions for change are more compelling when they're when they include visions when they're when they include visions when they're when they include visions of continuity. And I think that's really of continuity. And I think that's really of continuity. And I think that's really true. From a persuasiveness perspective, true. From a persuasiveness perspective, true. From a persuasiveness perspective, there's obvious takeaways. But like how there's obvious takeaways. But like how there's obvious takeaways. But like how is you know, like I again like okay, is you know, like I again like okay, is you know, like I again like okay, somebody's listening to this. Like how somebody's listening to this. Like how somebody's listening to this. Like how is this how does this operate in their is this how does this operate in their is this how does this operate in their life? Like what how are they taking, you life? Like what how are they taking, you life? Like what how are they taking, you know, some some of that wisdom in a know, some some of that wisdom in a know, some some of that wisdom in a practical sense and implementing it? practical sense and implementing it? practical sense and implementing it? >> Yeah, I think it depends what they're >> Yeah, I think it depends what they're >> Yeah, I think it depends what they're trying to do. If they're trying to Let's trying to do. If they're trying to Let's trying to do. If they're trying to Let's say they're trying to build something or say they're trying to build something or say they're trying to build something or they're trying to change people. Maybe they're trying to change people. Maybe they're trying to change people. Maybe those people are people in their those people are people in their those people are people in their personal life, people in their personal life, people in their personal life, people in their professional life, whatever it is. professional life, whatever it is. professional life, whatever it is. That's starting in places that those That's starting in places that those That's starting in places that those people already understand and agree with people already understand and agree with people already understand and agree with and showing them and showing them and showing them how this connects to the continuum how this connects to the continuum how this connects to the continuum they're familiar with is really they're familiar with is really they're familiar with is really important. And I think that's important important. And I think that's important important. And I think that's important even for yourself. So, I would say in even for yourself. So, I would say in even for yourself. So, I would say in the past the past the past cuz I'm I'm very much kind of a cuz I'm I'm very much kind of a cuz I'm I'm very much kind of a relentless self-experimenter, I would relentless self-experimenter, I would relentless self-experimenter, I would say. say. say. And And And often in the past that's been often in the past that's been often in the past that's been today I'm going to do this to I'm going today I'm going to do this to I'm going today I'm going to do this to I'm going to be a totally new person starting to be a totally new person starting to be a totally new person starting tomorrow, you know. I went through this tomorrow, you know. I went through this tomorrow, you know. I went through this phase where once I decided I I was like phase where once I decided I I was like phase where once I decided I I was like missing lunch, I decided I was only missing lunch, I decided I was only missing lunch, I decided I was only going to eat like raw kale stalks for going to eat like raw kale stalks for going to eat like raw kale stalks for lunch. And it's like man, you really lunch. And it's like man, you really lunch. And it's like man, you really have to chew those things, you know. So, have to chew those things, you know. So, have to chew those things, you know. So, it's like going from zero to 60 just it's like going from zero to 60 just it's like going from zero to 60 just instantly. And it has never worked well. instantly. And it has never worked well. instantly. And it has never worked well. You you fall prey to this thing um in You you fall prey to this thing um in You you fall prey to this thing um in psychology called the what the hell psychology called the what the hell psychology called the what the hell effect, where you then you mess up once effect, where you then you mess up once effect, where you then you mess up once and you're like, "Ah, what the hell." and you're like, "Ah, what the hell." and you're like, "Ah, what the hell." And just throw the whole thing out. And just throw the whole thing out. And just throw the whole thing out. >> whole thing out. >> whole thing out. >> whole thing out. And so I think even for personal And so I think even for personal And so I think even for personal self-improvement, looking at self-improvement, looking at self-improvement, looking at where have you been where have you been where have you been and you want to aim for this change, but and you want to aim for this change, but and you want to aim for this change, but but what sort of a continuous through but what sort of a continuous through but what sort of a continuous through line where you can do that? Like line where you can do that? Like line where you can do that? Like building on things that that already building on things that that already building on things that that already work for you, whether that's work for you, whether that's work for you, whether that's your sense of motivation, your sense of your sense of motivation, your sense of your sense of motivation, your sense of structure, your sense of obsessiveness, structure, your sense of obsessiveness, structure, your sense of obsessiveness, whatever it is. What can you take from whatever it is. What can you take from whatever it is. What can you take from that to to get to this new place instead that to to get to this new place instead that to to get to this new place instead of just saying I'm going to be like a of just saying I'm going to be like a of just saying I'm going to be like a totally new person tomorrow. So I've been sleeping on a Birch So I've been sleeping on a Birch mattress for better part of about 5 mattress for better part of about 5 mattress for better part of about 5 years at this point. And one thing I years at this point. And one thing I years at this point. And one thing I would say is that having a great would say is that having a great would say is that having a great mattress is one of those things mattress is one of those things mattress is one of those things >> [music] >> [music] >> [music] >> you don't really fully appreciate until >> you don't really fully appreciate until >> you don't really fully appreciate until you experience the difference night you experience the difference night you experience the difference night after night. Yes, it has enhanced my after night. Yes, it has enhanced my after night. Yes, it has enhanced my sleep quality courtesy of the quality sleep quality courtesy of the quality sleep quality courtesy of the quality [music] of its responsibly sourced [music] of its responsibly sourced [music] of its responsibly sourced materials, things like organic cotton materials, things like organic cotton materials, things like organic cotton and natural latex, fabricated to be and natural latex, fabricated to be and natural latex, fabricated to be solid but comfortable to support the solid but comfortable to support the solid but comfortable to support the body without being overly soft and so body without being overly soft and so body without being overly soft and so you can sleep cool. [music] Also, and you can sleep cool. [music] Also, and you can sleep cool. [music] Also, and you may not know this, most conventional you may not know this, most conventional you may not know this, most conventional mattresses are made with all manner of mattresses are made with all manner of mattresses are made with all manner of synthetics that create chemical synthetics that create chemical synthetics that create chemical off-gassing. This [music] is not good, off-gassing. This [music] is not good, off-gassing. This [music] is not good, which is another reason why Birch is so which is another reason why Birch is so which is another reason why Birch is so good. Sleep quality plus the quality of good. Sleep quality plus the quality of good. Sleep quality plus the quality of the product that you actually spend a the product that you actually spend a the product that you actually spend a third of your life on, third of your life on, third of your life on, >> [music] >> [music] >> [music] >> these things really matter to me. They >> these things really matter to me. They >> these things really matter to me. They matter to Birch and they really should matter to Birch and they really should matter to Birch and they really should matter to you, too. And with Birch you matter to you, too. And with Birch you matter to you, too. And with Birch you get all of it. Plus the setup is simple, get all of it. Plus the setup is simple, get all of it. Plus the setup is simple, it shows up at your [music] door, rolls it shows up at your [music] door, rolls it shows up at your [music] door, rolls out easily, and you get 120 nights to out easily, and you get 120 nights to out easily, and you get 120 nights to really see how [music] your body really see how [music] your body really see how [music] your body responds. Go to birchliving.com/richroll responds. Go to birchliving.com/richroll responds. Go to birchliving.com/richroll for 27% for 27% for 27% off sitewide. That's off sitewide. That's off sitewide. That's birchliving.com/richroll. birchliving.com/richroll. birchliving.com/richroll. You can get 27% off sitewide. This episode is brought to you by Freaks This episode is brought to you by Freaks of Nature, because I'm a freak when it of Nature, because I'm a freak when it of Nature, because I'm a freak when it comes to making sure that what goes into comes to making sure that what goes into comes to making sure that what goes into and on my body comes from nature. If and on my body comes from nature. If and on my body comes from nature. If you're like me, active, outdoors a lot, you're like me, active, outdoors a lot, you're like me, active, outdoors a lot, prone to sweating tons, and into clean prone to sweating tons, and into clean prone to sweating tons, and into clean personal care products, then you personal care products, then you personal care products, then you probably have had a few experiences probably have had a few experiences probably have had a few experiences testing some of these products only to testing some of these products only to testing some of these products only to discover they're great in theory, but discover they're great in theory, but discover they're great in theory, but underwhelming when it comes to actually underwhelming when it comes to actually underwhelming when it comes to actually working. But, I got to say, this stuff working. But, I got to say, this stuff working. But, I got to say, this stuff is great. It gets the job done and then is great. It gets the job done and then is great. It gets the job done and then some, all without tradeoffs when it some, all without tradeoffs when it some, all without tradeoffs when it comes to clean ingredients. I've been comes to clean ingredients. I've been comes to clean ingredients. I've been using their deodorant and their mineral using their deodorant and their mineral using their deodorant and their mineral sun stick. Here's the deodorant. It sun stick. Here's the deodorant. It sun stick. Here's the deodorant. It comes in multiple flavors, or I should comes in multiple flavors, or I should comes in multiple flavors, or I should say scents. We've got the Santal Dune say scents. We've got the Santal Dune say scents. We've got the Santal Dune and we have the Bergamot Canyon. This and we have the Bergamot Canyon. This and we have the Bergamot Canyon. This one's my favorite. Uh we also have the one's my favorite. Uh we also have the one's my favorite. Uh we also have the broad spectrum SPF 50 sun stick. Both of broad spectrum SPF 50 sun stick. Both of broad spectrum SPF 50 sun stick. Both of these have earned a permanent place in these have earned a permanent place in these have earned a permanent place in my routine. The deodorant is aluminum my routine. The deodorant is aluminum my routine. The deodorant is aluminum and baking soda free, of course, but and baking soda free, of course, but and baking soda free, of course, but somehow still holds up through long somehow still holds up through long somehow still holds up through long training days, which frankly surprised training days, which frankly surprised training days, which frankly surprised me. And their sun stick really does go me. And their sun stick really does go me. And their sun stick really does go on incredibly smooth, leaves no white on incredibly smooth, leaves no white on incredibly smooth, leaves no white cast, and makes it ridiculously easy to cast, and makes it ridiculously easy to cast, and makes it ridiculously easy to protect your skin when you're outside protect your skin when you're outside protect your skin when you're outside for hours. Their sun stick sold out last for hours. Their sun stick sold out last for hours. Their sun stick sold out last summer and their deodorant sold out summer and their deodorant sold out summer and their deodorant sold out within 1 month of launching, but good within 1 month of launching, but good within 1 month of launching, but good news, everything is back in stock right news, everything is back in stock right news, everything is back in stock right now. I'm all in. I suggest you will be, now. I'm all in. I suggest you will be, now. I'm all in. I suggest you will be, too. And right now is the time because too. And right now is the time because too. And right now is the time because when you go to freaks of nature.com, when you go to freaks of nature.com, when you go to freaks of nature.com, which is what you're going to do right which is what you're going to do right which is what you're going to do right now, and you use the code Rich Roll, now, and you use the code Rich Roll, now, and you use the code Rich Roll, you're going to save 20% when you order you're going to save 20% when you order you're going to save 20% when you order now before it sells out again. So, do now before it sells out again. So, do now before it sells out again. So, do it. We were talking earlier about We were talking earlier about uh uh uh how scientists sort of go into an how scientists sort of go into an how scientists sort of go into an experiment with a certain hypothesis, experiment with a certain hypothesis, experiment with a certain hypothesis, how that can become problem how that can become problem how that can become problem problematical. problematical. problematical. In the case of this book and this In the case of this book and this In the case of this book and this adventure that you went on to kind of adventure that you went on to kind of adventure that you went on to kind of get to the bottom of of these ideas, get to the bottom of of these ideas, get to the bottom of of these ideas, is there anything that surprised you or is there anything that surprised you or is there anything that surprised you or that you ended up changing your mind on that you ended up changing your mind on that you ended up changing your mind on from your operating hypothesis going from your operating hypothesis going from your operating hypothesis going into it? into it? into it? >> I would say the first >> I would say the first >> I would say the first the most famous work done the most the most famous work done the most the most famous work done the most obvious work. And when I even mentioned obvious work. And when I even mentioned obvious work. And when I even mentioned that I was doing a book on this, people that I was doing a book on this, people that I was doing a book on this, people said, "Oh, you have to read the paradox said, "Oh, you have to read the paradox said, "Oh, you have to read the paradox of choice research." Which some of the of choice research." Which some of the of choice research." Which some of the most famous research involved people most famous research involved people most famous research involved people this like clever experiment where people this like clever experiment where people this like clever experiment where people were exposed to different number of like were exposed to different number of like were exposed to different number of like jelly at a store that they could buy. jelly at a store that they could buy. jelly at a store that they could buy. And when the And when the And when the when the choice set became reached a when the choice set became reached a when the choice set became reached a certain size, they would be paralyzed certain size, they would be paralyzed certain size, they would be paralyzed and just wouldn't buy anything at all. and just wouldn't buy anything at all. and just wouldn't buy anything at all. >> [snorts] >> [snorts] >> [snorts] >> And that probably became the most famous >> And that probably became the most famous >> And that probably became the most famous work in this. So, it's it's the most work in this. So, it's it's the most work in this. So, it's it's the most common thing people tell me about. common thing people tell me about. common thing people tell me about. And by the way, I love the researcher And by the way, I love the researcher And by the way, I love the researcher that's the most associated with this. that's the most associated with this. that's the most associated with this. And I cite some of his other work. And I cite some of his other work. And I cite some of his other work. But But But that work that work that work it didn't give me great confidence that it didn't give me great confidence that it didn't give me great confidence that it would hold up. it would hold up. it would hold up. And And And when I was looking around there, I think when I was looking around there, I think when I was looking around there, I think there are signs that it hasn't held up there are signs that it hasn't held up there are signs that it hasn't held up that well. And so, the the like kind of that well. And so, the the like kind of that well. And so, the the like kind of first thing that I thought I was going first thing that I thought I was going first thing that I thought I was going to write about, I turned out not to to write about, I turned out not to to write about, I turned out not to write about at all. write about at all. write about at all. I think there are other problems with I think there are other problems with I think there are other problems with too much choice like we can see and I too much choice like we can see and I too much choice like we can see and I cite some of this research in the book cite some of this research in the book cite some of this research in the book that when health care choices or that when health care choices or that when health care choices or investment choice sets become too large investment choice sets become too large investment choice sets become too large and complex, and complex, and complex, people actually do make worse decisions people actually do make worse decisions people actually do make worse decisions or will just not do it at all. or will just not do it at all. or will just not do it at all. But some of the more famous paradox of But some of the more famous paradox of But some of the more famous paradox of choice stuff turned out I I just I just choice stuff turned out I I just I just choice stuff turned out I I just I just couldn't convince myself that the couldn't convince myself that the couldn't convince myself that the research would hold up basically. And research would hold up basically. And research would hold up basically. And so, I basically left it out. So, that so, I basically left it out. So, that so, I basically left it out. So, that definitely went against like what I definitely went against like what I definitely went against like what I wrote in my book proposal cuz I thought wrote in my book proposal cuz I thought wrote in my book proposal cuz I thought maybe I would lead the book with this maybe I would lead the book with this maybe I would lead the book with this kind of stuff. kind of stuff. kind of stuff. >> That whole idea. Yeah, I mean just >> That whole idea. Yeah, I mean just >> That whole idea. Yeah, I mean just reflecting on that reflecting on that reflecting on that example of like you're at the grocery example of like you're at the grocery example of like you're at the grocery store and there's like, you know, 50 store and there's like, you know, 50 store and there's like, you know, 50 different brands of peanut butter. Yeah, different brands of peanut butter. Yeah, different brands of peanut butter. Yeah, if I want peanut butter, I'm still if I want peanut butter, I'm still if I want peanut butter, I'm still buying peanut butter. I'll make a buying peanut butter. I'll make a buying peanut butter. I'll make a choice. But I can see it for example in choice. But I can see it for example in choice. But I can see it for example in the supplement context. Like, you know, the supplement context. Like, you know, the supplement context. Like, you know, there's just a million supplements that there's just a million supplements that there's just a million supplements that are all making these great promises and are all making these great promises and are all making these great promises and you're like, well, this is all nonsense you're like, well, this is all nonsense you're like, well, this is all nonsense and then you don't buy any of them. and then you don't buy any of them. and then you don't buy any of them. >> Yeah, when I looked at the the bigger >> Yeah, when I looked at the the bigger >> Yeah, when I looked at the the bigger body of research, it looks like it has body of research, it looks like it has body of research, it looks like it has more to do with choice set complexity. more to do with choice set complexity. more to do with choice set complexity. So, like peanut butter's not that So, like peanut butter's not that So, like peanut butter's not that complex, but 401k options may be pretty complex, but 401k options may be pretty complex, but 401k options may be pretty complex. And so, as they get this the complex. And so, as they get this the complex. And so, as they get this the options grow larger, people are more options grow larger, people are more options grow larger, people are more likely to just be like, I don't know and likely to just be like, I don't know and likely to just be like, I don't know and and not do anything. and not do anything. and not do anything. Um that study, that jelly study, and Um that study, that jelly study, and Um that study, that jelly study, and other So, the two most famous studies in other So, the two most famous studies in other So, the two most famous studies in the area that I was counting on going the area that I was counting on going the area that I was counting on going into the book, I ended up not writing into the book, I ended up not writing into the book, I ended up not writing about. The other one was this famous about. The other one was this famous about. The other one was this famous playground study where when I would talk playground study where when I would talk playground study where when I would talk to psychologist, they'd say, oh, this is to psychologist, they'd say, oh, this is to psychologist, they'd say, oh, this is like like like the study where the study where the study where kindergartners were taken to a kindergartners were taken to a kindergartners were taken to a playground, one with no fence and one playground, one with no fence and one playground, one with no fence and one with a fence, and in the one with no with a fence, and in the one with no with a fence, and in the one with no fence, they all huddled around the fence, they all huddled around the fence, they all huddled around the teacher. In the one with a fence, they teacher. In the one with a fence, they teacher. In the one with a fence, they went crazy and explored. went crazy and explored. went crazy and explored. And the idea was that these boundaries And the idea was that these boundaries And the idea was that these boundaries give them the safety to explore. give them the safety to explore. give them the safety to explore. This is great. Like, maybe I lead the This is great. Like, maybe I lead the This is great. Like, maybe I lead the book with this. book with this. book with this. And I could not track down I saw this And I could not track down I saw this And I could not track down I saw this study being cited all the time in other study being cited all the time in other study being cited all the time in other studies, but I could not find the studies, but I could not find the studies, but I could not find the primary study. primary study. primary study. And so, finally I track it down. The And so, finally I track it down. The And so, finally I track it down. The best best best source I can find is to like and all source I can find is to like and all source I can find is to like and all these citations in books are citing each these citations in books are citing each these citations in books are citing each other, right? So, I'm just like going other, right? So, I'm just like going other, right? So, I'm just like going around in a circle. around in a circle. around in a circle. >> [snorts] >> [snorts] >> [snorts] >> Finally, I track it down to like a >> Finally, I track it down to like a >> Finally, I track it down to like a student project that won some award. The student project that won some award. The student project that won some award. The get the guy is now a get the guy is now a get the guy is now a a professor. So, I reach out to him and a professor. So, I reach out to him and a professor. So, I reach out to him and say, say, say, this thing's really famous like, do you this thing's really famous like, do you this thing's really famous like, do you know is what did you base this on? And know is what did you base this on? And know is what did you base this on? And he says, he says, he says, I took the word of some child I took the word of some child I took the word of some child psychologist, and I could never find a psychologist, and I could never find a psychologist, and I could never find a primary study. I'm really sorry I primary study. I'm really sorry I primary study. I'm really sorry I perpetuated this. perpetuated this. perpetuated this. And so, I think it got famous because it And so, I think it got famous because it And so, I think it got famous because it it gets at something that we kind of it gets at something that we kind of it gets at something that we kind of know is true, that like you you you know is true, that like you you you know is true, that like you you you explore more within boundaries. explore more within boundaries. explore more within boundaries. But again, it was like the other most But again, it was like the other most But again, it was like the other most famous study that everyone told me about famous study that everyone told me about famous study that everyone told me about when I said I'm writing about when I said I'm writing about when I said I'm writing about constraints, turned out to not even constraints, turned out to not even constraints, turned out to not even exist. So, exist. So, exist. So, >> no there there. It's like this >> no there there. It's like this >> no there there. It's like this ouroboros. It makes it it it lowers my ouroboros. It makes it it it lowers my ouroboros. It makes it it it lowers my confidence in the the you know the confidence in the the you know the confidence in the the you know the scientific canon. Like if that could you scientific canon. Like if that could you scientific canon. Like if that could you know become so famous and so accepted know become so famous and so accepted know become so famous and so accepted without there actually being a root without there actually being a root without there actually being a root source for the idea. source for the idea. source for the idea. Uh what else is out there that you know Uh what else is out there that you know Uh what else is out there that you know Yeah, I mean you start to realize like Yeah, I mean you start to realize like Yeah, I mean you start to realize like how sloppy some of the stuff is. how sloppy some of the stuff is. how sloppy some of the stuff is. That said again, I think the scientific That said again, I think the scientific That said again, I think the scientific community community community is what compared to the rest of the is what compared to the rest of the is what compared to the rest of the world is like wonderfully world is like wonderfully world is like wonderfully self-correcting in some ways and a lot self-correcting in some ways and a lot self-correcting in some ways and a lot of the problems they're having is of the problems they're having is of the problems they're having is because they have criticized you know because they have criticized you know because they have criticized you know scientists have criticized scientists. scientists have criticized scientists. scientists have criticized scientists. But But But you know that that that finding is it's you know that that that finding is it's you know that that that finding is it's sexy. It's interesting. Like I could sexy. It's interesting. Like I could sexy. It's interesting. Like I could have seen opening a book with it or it's have seen opening a book with it or it's have seen opening a book with it or it's like this picture of kindergarteners in like this picture of kindergarteners in like this picture of kindergarteners in one area where they're huddled around one area where they're huddled around one area where they're huddled around the teacher and then the other area the teacher and then the other area the teacher and then the other area where they're exploring and wild and where they're exploring and wild and where they're exploring and wild and this is like a metaphor for life. But this is like a metaphor for life. But this is like a metaphor for life. But you know sadly for me it turned out the you know sadly for me it turned out the you know sadly for me it turned out the study doesn't exist. study doesn't exist. study doesn't exist. >> the experiment, it would probably be >> the experiment, it would probably be >> the experiment, it would probably be true. It may It just didn't get run. It true. It may It just didn't get run. It true. It may It just didn't get run. It didn't get run and so I'm not going to didn't get run and so I'm not going to didn't get run and so I'm not going to open a book with it if it didn't open a book with it if it didn't open a book with it if it didn't [laughter] actually happen. But what I [laughter] actually happen. But what I [laughter] actually happen. But what I take from that is the doggedness in your take from that is the doggedness in your take from that is the doggedness in your in your reporting. Like you you are in your reporting. Like you you are in your reporting. Like you you are truly a science-minded investigative truly a science-minded investigative truly a science-minded investigative journalist. And I reached out to Brad journalist. And I reached out to Brad journalist. And I reached out to Brad Stolberg to say like hey Dave's coming Stolberg to say like hey Dave's coming Stolberg to say like hey Dave's coming in like you know in like you know in like you know what in your experience would be good to what in your experience would be good to what in your experience would be good to talk to him about or what might I not talk to him about or what might I not talk to him about or what might I not know that would be cool. know that would be cool. know that would be cool. And he said David is a guy who will And he said David is a guy who will And he said David is a guy who will literally get on a plane and fly across literally get on a plane and fly across literally get on a plane and fly across the country to have a one-hour the country to have a one-hour the country to have a one-hour conversation with somebody when it could conversation with somebody when it could conversation with somebody when it could have easily been on Zoom. And I think have easily been on Zoom. And I think have easily been on Zoom. And I think that speaks to the the depth of your that speaks to the the depth of your that speaks to the the depth of your commitment to really to veracity and and commitment to really to veracity and and commitment to really to veracity and and getting to the truth and and and really getting to the truth and and and really getting to the truth and and and really being deeply connected to the ideas that being deeply connected to the ideas that being deeply connected to the ideas that you're exploring. you're exploring. you're exploring. What is that about? And maybe a What is that about? And maybe a What is that about? And maybe a follow-up to that is follow-up to that is follow-up to that is you know how are you thinking about the you know how are you thinking about the you know how are you thinking about the current state of investigative current state of investigative current state of investigative journalism in 2026? journalism in 2026? journalism in 2026? >> I'm really flattered to hear that by the >> I'm really flattered to hear that by the >> I'm really flattered to hear that by the way. way. way. Um Um Um I thought you were going to say his I thought you were going to say his I thought you were going to say his favorite work of mine was some reporting favorite work of mine was some reporting favorite work of mine was some reporting I did about drug cartels. That's how I I did about drug cartels. That's how I I did about drug cartels. That's how I was doing that for a year. But was doing that for a year. But was doing that for a year. But for for this book, I think maybe one of for for this book, I think maybe one of for for this book, I think maybe one of the things he's thinking of is I did the things he's thinking of is I did the things he's thinking of is I did this whole road trip through rural this whole road trip through rural this whole road trip through rural Mississippi while I was following up on Mississippi while I was following up on Mississippi while I was following up on a sort of legend about a famous musician a sort of legend about a famous musician a sort of legend about a famous musician for the book. And for the book. And for the book. And I basically ended up road tripping I basically ended up road tripping I basically ended up road tripping through rural Mississippi so that I through rural Mississippi so that I through rural Mississippi so that I could sit in an abandoned graveyard for could sit in an abandoned graveyard for could sit in an abandoned graveyard for an hour at midnight and experience an hour at midnight and experience an hour at midnight and experience something that I want to write about. So something that I want to write about. So something that I want to write about. So it was a I even I broke the windshield it was a I even I broke the windshield it was a I even I broke the windshield on the rental car driving down like a on the rental car driving down like a on the rental car driving down like a famous crossroads where musicians make famous crossroads where musicians make famous crossroads where musicians make deals with the devil. So it was like deals with the devil. So it was like deals with the devil. So it was like this long trip where I broke a rental this long trip where I broke a rental this long trip where I broke a rental car, didn't hadn't gotten the insurance car, didn't hadn't gotten the insurance car, didn't hadn't gotten the insurance just so that I could sit in a certain just so that I could sit in a certain just so that I could sit in a certain graveyard at midnight. And I think Brad graveyard at midnight. And I think Brad graveyard at midnight. And I think Brad was like was like was like >> Robert Johnson. Um who was uh supposedly >> Robert Johnson. Um who was uh supposedly >> Robert Johnson. Um who was uh supposedly famously sold his soul uh famously sold his soul uh famously sold his soul uh to the devil to become the greatest to the devil to become the greatest to the devil to become the greatest guitar player in the world. But in fact, guitar player in the world. But in fact, guitar player in the world. But in fact, what he just did was went and found some what he just did was went and found some what he just did was went and found some solitude and a and a teacher basically. solitude and a and a teacher basically. solitude and a and a teacher basically. And I remember Brad was like And I remember Brad was like And I remember Brad was like "What are you doing there?" Like "What are you doing there?" Like "What are you doing there?" Like [laughter] in [laughter] in [laughter] in But when I get curious about something, But when I get curious about something, But when I get curious about something, I I just I'm very motivated to I I just I I just I'm very motivated to I I just I I just I'm very motivated to I I just I can't drop it. When I For example, I can't drop it. When I For example, I can't drop it. When I For example, with that playground study, when I with that playground study, when I with that playground study, when I started to feel like maybe it's not real started to feel like maybe it's not real started to feel like maybe it's not real I just can't drop it. I find that very I just can't drop it. I find that very I just can't drop it. I find that very interesting to follow up on. And like I interesting to follow up on. And like I interesting to follow up on. And like I told you at the beginning of this, how I told you at the beginning of this, how I told you at the beginning of this, how I describe my job is I obsess over describe my job is I obsess over describe my job is I obsess over misperceptions of research. And so if I misperceptions of research. And so if I misperceptions of research. And so if I think there's some misperception out think there's some misperception out think there's some misperception out there there there I'm kind of obsessive about wanting to I'm kind of obsessive about wanting to I'm kind of obsessive about wanting to to change the narrative. to change the narrative. to change the narrative. To your question about how investigative To your question about how investigative To your question about how investigative reporting is now it's challenged, I think for a lot of it's challenged, I think for a lot of reasons. One of which is it's slow. It's reasons. One of which is it's slow. It's reasons. One of which is it's slow. It's an inherently slow form. an inherently slow form. an inherently slow form. When I was at ProPublica, which is an an When I was at ProPublica, which is an an When I was at ProPublica, which is an an all investigative uh operation all investigative uh operation all investigative uh operation so much time was spent going down dead so much time was spent going down dead so much time was spent going down dead ends. ends. ends. You know, I don't know what the story is You know, I don't know what the story is You know, I don't know what the story is yet. I'm just in exploratory mode. And yet. I'm just in exploratory mode. And yet. I'm just in exploratory mode. And that happens for my books, too. I do a that happens for my books, too. I do a that happens for my books, too. I do a lot of interviews where I'm just in lot of interviews where I'm just in lot of interviews where I'm just in exploratory mode. exploratory mode. exploratory mode. And it's really hard to have that luxury And it's really hard to have that luxury And it's really hard to have that luxury now when people are forced to produce so now when people are forced to produce so now when people are forced to produce so much much much where you may not have the luxury of where you may not have the luxury of where you may not have the luxury of going down a dead end because something going down a dead end because something going down a dead end because something has to be has to be made like every 2 has to be has to be made like every 2 has to be has to be made like every 2 seconds. seconds. seconds. Um so ProPublica had like when I came in Um so ProPublica had like when I came in Um so ProPublica had like when I came in they said we do have rules. The rules they said we do have rules. The rules they said we do have rules. The rules are you have to take on something that are you have to take on something that are you have to take on something that is of a certain level of importance and is of a certain level of importance and is of a certain level of importance and they would help you evaluate that. they would help you evaluate that. they would help you evaluate that. And it it has to be something that's you And it it has to be something that's you And it it has to be something that's you know not done already and those sorts of know not done already and those sorts of know not done already and those sorts of things but you did have the luxury of things but you did have the luxury of things but you did have the luxury of failing. Mhm. And I just think that is failing. Mhm. And I just think that is failing. Mhm. And I just think that is such a luxury now. Like investigative such a luxury now. Like investigative such a luxury now. Like investigative journalism is expensive. You have to journalism is expensive. You have to journalism is expensive. You have to have the opportunity to fail. have the opportunity to fail. have the opportunity to fail. That That That there are just not many people who are there are just not many people who are there are just not many people who are being afforded the the ability to fail being afforded the the ability to fail being afforded the the ability to fail in their work in a way that would allow in their work in a way that would allow in their work in a way that would allow them to do that. And and you might get them to do that. And and you might get them to do that. And and you might get sued, right? So it's expensive in that sued, right? So it's expensive in that sued, right? So it's expensive in that way too. way too. way too. I think one of my I think one of my I think one of my friends my closest friend from Sports friends my closest friend from Sports friends my closest friend from Sports Illustrated guy named Pablo Torre Illustrated guy named Pablo Torre Illustrated guy named Pablo Torre has been doing some incredible has been doing some incredible has been doing some incredible investigative reporting investigative reporting investigative reporting and it's kind of made a new format. He and it's kind of made a new format. He and it's kind of made a new format. He has a podcast now. has a podcast now. has a podcast now. And And And I don't know if you heard about this I don't know if you heard about this I don't know if you heard about this stuff with the LA Clippers kind of stuff with the LA Clippers kind of stuff with the LA Clippers kind of circumventing the salary cap by like circumventing the salary cap by like circumventing the salary cap by like funneling some money through a a sort of funneling some money through a a sort of funneling some money through a a sort of what turned out to be a fraudulent what turned out to be a fraudulent what turned out to be a fraudulent environmental company. environmental company. environmental company. He's been doing that work. And he He's been doing that work. And he He's been doing that work. And he likened it to he saw unboxing videos on likened it to he saw unboxing videos on likened it to he saw unboxing videos on YouTube, you know where like a kid will YouTube, you know where like a kid will YouTube, you know where like a kid will open a toy and you share in the joy of open a toy and you share in the joy of open a toy and you share in the joy of their excitement and he's doing that their excitement and he's doing that their excitement and he's doing that with journalism where he's got his with journalism where he's got his with journalism where he's got his documents and he'll bring a few people documents and he'll bring a few people documents and he'll bring a few people into the into the into the studio and he'll say turn over page one studio and he'll say turn over page one studio and he'll say turn over page one and they'll unbox the journalism and they'll unbox the journalism and they'll unbox the journalism together. And I think that format is together. And I think that format is together. And I think that format is really innovative. really innovative. really innovative. And so maybe it'll open up people to And so maybe it'll open up people to And so maybe it'll open up people to seeing how we can do investigative work seeing how we can do investigative work seeing how we can do investigative work cuz cuz cuz one of the things he and I talked about one of the things he and I talked about one of the things he and I talked about was when we were to SI it would have was when we were to SI it would have was when we were to SI it would have been very hard to do stories like that been very hard to do stories like that been very hard to do stories like that because of the kind of traditional because of the kind of traditional because of the kind of traditional format but he found this other format format but he found this other format format but he found this other format that works in a different medium. that works in a different medium. that works in a different medium. And so I hope we'll start to see some of And so I hope we'll start to see some of And so I hope we'll start to see some of these what what you can keep going back these what what you can keep going back these what what you can keep going back to it too, right? He doesn't have to to it too, right? He doesn't have to to it too, right? He doesn't have to encompass everything in one story. It's encompass everything in one story. It's encompass everything in one story. It's been like nine episodes or something. been like nine episodes or something. been like nine episodes or something. Cuz once he does one people leak him Cuz once he does one people leak him Cuz once he does one people leak him stuff, and then he does another. stuff, and then he does another. stuff, and then he does another. >> That's interesting. It's just making it >> That's interesting. It's just making it >> That's interesting. It's just making it visually dynamic. And using the visually dynamic. And using the visually dynamic. And using the affordances of the medium, you know? And affordances of the medium, you know? And affordances of the medium, you know? And so I think investigative journalism is so I think investigative journalism is so I think investigative journalism is in trouble. It's very easy to attack in trouble. It's very easy to attack in trouble. It's very easy to attack investigative journalists, also. And so investigative journalists, also. And so investigative journalists, also. And so like I used to always be white-knuckling like I used to always be white-knuckling like I used to always be white-knuckling it through investigative stories. Like it through investigative stories. Like it through investigative stories. Like some of my colleagues at ProPublica some of my colleagues at ProPublica some of my colleagues at ProPublica would like almost gain energy from being would like almost gain energy from being would like almost gain energy from being in a public controversy. I I was not in a public controversy. I I was not in a public controversy. I I was not like that. I If I felt like something like that. I If I felt like something like that. I If I felt like something was important to do, I'd do it, but I was important to do, I'd do it, but I was important to do, I'd do it, but I said, "When will this be over and said, "When will this be over and said, "When will this be over and everybody stop being mad at me?" everybody stop being mad at me?" everybody stop being mad at me?" And I think even knowing that the And I think even knowing that the And I think even knowing that the internet people are going to criticize internet people are going to criticize internet people are going to criticize you, it's still hard to put something you, it's still hard to put something you, it's still hard to put something out that's investigative in nature and out that's investigative in nature and out that's investigative in nature and just have just have just have this army of people or maybe bots or who this army of people or maybe bots or who this army of people or maybe bots or who knows knows knows like tearing you down all the time. So I like tearing you down all the time. So I like tearing you down all the time. So I think there's the social aspect, there's think there's the social aspect, there's think there's the social aspect, there's the economic conditions of journalism. the economic conditions of journalism. the economic conditions of journalism. But I'm hopeful when I see stuff like But I'm hopeful when I see stuff like But I'm hopeful when I see stuff like Pablo. Pablo. Pablo. I mean, cuz I've now started pitching I mean, cuz I've now started pitching I mean, cuz I've now started pitching him investigative ideas that I don't him investigative ideas that I don't him investigative ideas that I don't think I could have gotten into think I could have gotten into think I could have gotten into traditional magazines. traditional magazines. traditional magazines. So I'm hopeful that we'll see some kind So I'm hopeful that we'll see some kind So I'm hopeful that we'll see some kind of rebirth, but it's under pressure, for of rebirth, but it's under pressure, for of rebirth, but it's under pressure, for sure, cuz people just don't have the sure, cuz people just don't have the sure, cuz people just don't have the ability to fail. ability to fail. ability to fail. >> Yeah. I mean, that idea of creating a >> Yeah. I mean, that idea of creating a >> Yeah. I mean, that idea of creating a visually arresting, you know, visually arresting, you know, visually arresting, you know, uh version of investigative reporting uh version of investigative reporting uh version of investigative reporting via like this unboxing, you know, via like this unboxing, you know, via like this unboxing, you know, conceit is a is an example of leveraging conceit is a is an example of leveraging conceit is a is an example of leveraging constraints to make something to like constraints to make something to like constraints to make something to like reinvent the form, you know, which I reinvent the form, you know, which I reinvent the form, you know, which I think is really cool. think is really cool. think is really cool. But in reflecting on But in reflecting on But in reflecting on investigative journalism, you know, writ investigative journalism, you know, writ investigative journalism, you know, writ large, like this is necessary to a large, like this is necessary to a large, like this is necessary to a healthy society, right? And when I think healthy society, right? And when I think healthy society, right? And when I think about it, I think about two different about it, I think about two different about it, I think about two different aspects. The incentive structure, which aspects. The incentive structure, which aspects. The incentive structure, which is broken, really right now. There is no is broken, really right now. There is no is broken, really right now. There is no viable business model to support like viable business model to support like viable business model to support like reporting that takes months and months reporting that takes months and months reporting that takes months and months and months and months. and months and months. and months and months. >> And I would argue there never was. It >> And I would argue there never was. It >> And I would argue there never was. It was just piggybacking on the other stuff was just piggybacking on the other stuff was just piggybacking on the other stuff that made money. that made money. that made money. >> It was subsidized by advertising in >> It was subsidized by advertising in >> It was subsidized by advertising in magazines that had wide distribution, magazines that had wide distribution, magazines that had wide distribution, right? right? right? >> at SI, when I would do investigative >> at SI, when I would do investigative >> at SI, when I would do investigative stories, and some of the criticism would stories, and some of the criticism would stories, and some of the criticism would always be, you guys are just trying to always be, you guys are just trying to always be, you guys are just trying to sell magazines. I'm like, sell magazines. I'm like, sell magazines. I'm like, this is the nobody will advertise an this is the nobody will advertise an this is the nobody will advertise an investigative story. Like, we're not investigative story. Like, we're not investigative story. Like, we're not doing this because it's selling doing this because it's selling doing this because it's selling magazines, right? Um magazines, right? Um magazines, right? Um so, so, so, it was it was always piggybacking on the it was it was always piggybacking on the it was it was always piggybacking on the other stuff. other stuff. other stuff. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. The second pillar is an appreciation for The second pillar is an appreciation for The second pillar is an appreciation for the truth. Yeah. And we're in this the truth. Yeah. And we're in this the truth. Yeah. And we're in this post-truth world. Like, do people care post-truth world. Like, do people care post-truth world. Like, do people care about the truth? They should. about the truth? They should. about the truth? They should. >> Do they? You know what I mean? Like, >> Do they? You know what I mean? Like, >> Do they? You know what I mean? Like, that that that's the the heart that has that that that's the the heart that has that that that's the the heart that has to pump the whole thing right now. to pump the whole thing right now. to pump the whole thing right now. >> Yeah, as well. I mean, >> Yeah, as well. I mean, >> Yeah, as well. I mean, and that's kind of a scary thing. Like, and that's kind of a scary thing. Like, and that's kind of a scary thing. Like, when I was thinking about this, I would when I was thinking about this, I would when I was thinking about this, I would say the most unusual chapter in the new say the most unusual chapter in the new say the most unusual chapter in the new book is chapter 10, which is about based book is chapter 10, which is about based book is chapter 10, which is about based on the work of this economist named on the work of this economist named on the work of this economist named Douglas North, who won the Nobel Prize Douglas North, who won the Nobel Prize Douglas North, who won the Nobel Prize for for for showing the importance of institutions showing the importance of institutions showing the importance of institutions for the long-run flourishing of for the long-run flourishing of for the long-run flourishing of countries. And I institutions, he didn't countries. And I institutions, he didn't countries. And I institutions, he didn't mean hospitals or colleges. He meant mean hospitals or colleges. He meant mean hospitals or colleges. He meant what he called the rules of the game in what he called the rules of the game in what he called the rules of the game in a society. Or as he put it, the a society. Or as he put it, the a society. Or as he put it, the constraints on human behavior that come constraints on human behavior that come constraints on human behavior that come from social norms or from social norms or from social norms or or political and economic structures. or political and economic structures. or political and economic structures. And what he showed And what he showed And what he showed was that these are the foundation of was that these are the foundation of was that these are the foundation of shared prosperity. That for long for shared prosperity. That for long for shared prosperity. That for long for most of human history, people only did most of human history, people only did most of human history, people only did business with their kinship network or business with their kinship network or business with their kinship network or their religious network, but then when their religious network, but then when their religious network, but then when constraints came in that made strangers constraints came in that made strangers constraints came in that made strangers more predictable to one another, they more predictable to one another, they more predictable to one another, they started doing business across these started doing business across these started doing business across these boundaries and that led to shared boundaries and that led to shared boundaries and that led to shared prosperity. prosperity. prosperity. What some of his work and the the people What some of his work and the the people What some of his work and the the people that then did work after him showed that that then did work after him showed that that then did work after him showed that these rules of the game in society, when these rules of the game in society, when these rules of the game in society, when they're sort of more equitable and they're sort of more equitable and they're sort of more equitable and people can see that, people can see that, people can see that, they trust strangers more. They they trust strangers more. They they trust strangers more. They collaborate more. collaborate more. collaborate more. And that that has an effect long after And that that has an effect long after And that that has an effect long after those institutions are gone. So, these those institutions are gone. So, these those institutions are gone. So, these natural experiments I write about where natural experiments I write about where natural experiments I write about where like a border was drawn between some like a border was drawn between some like a border was drawn between some towns, towns, towns, some of them have good equitable some of them have good equitable some of them have good equitable institutions and some don't. institutions and some don't. institutions and some don't. And a a century after those institutions And a a century after those institutions And a a century after those institutions disappear, it still affects how the disappear, it still affects how the disappear, it still affects how the grandchildren in that area will trust grandchildren in that area will trust grandchildren in that area will trust and collaborate with strangers. and collaborate with strangers. and collaborate with strangers. The implication of that, I think, is The implication of that, I think, is The implication of that, I think, is that we've now been seeing that we've now been seeing that we've now been seeing almost open public corruption in many almost open public corruption in many almost open public corruption in many cases, cases, cases, uh clear cases of rules don't apply to uh clear cases of rules don't apply to uh clear cases of rules don't apply to some people that are basically flaunted. some people that are basically flaunted. some people that are basically flaunted. And based on this research, that should And based on this research, that should And based on this research, that should have a really bad effect in the long run have a really bad effect in the long run have a really bad effect in the long run on people's willingness to trust on people's willingness to trust on people's willingness to trust strangers. And I just saw that Pew just strangers. And I just saw that Pew just strangers. And I just saw that Pew just released a survey showing that America released a survey showing that America released a survey showing that America is now the only country where is now the only country where is now the only country where a majority of adults say other people a majority of adults say other people a majority of adults say other people have bad morals. have bad morals. have bad morals. Which is exactly what you'd expect if Which is exactly what you'd expect if Which is exactly what you'd expect if we're kind of proactively tearing down we're kind of proactively tearing down we're kind of proactively tearing down these agreed-upon social norms and these agreed-upon social norms and these agreed-upon social norms and institutions. So I think even if we institutions. So I think even if we institutions. So I think even if we turned it around tomorrow, we'd have turned it around tomorrow, we'd have turned it around tomorrow, we'd have some lasting damage. some lasting damage. some lasting damage. But we have to kind of find some But we have to kind of find some But we have to kind of find some hopefully way back and and and to have hopefully way back and and and to have hopefully way back and and and to have some agreed-upon social norms some agreed-upon social norms some agreed-upon social norms for for behavior so that it's not just a for for behavior so that it's not just a for for behavior so that it's not just a free-for-all all the time. The degree of free-for-all all the time. The degree of free-for-all all the time. The degree of norm violation these days is norm violation these days is norm violation these days is unlike anything I've ever seen. And I unlike anything I've ever seen. And I unlike anything I've ever seen. And I often I'm reflecting on like, what are often I'm reflecting on like, what are often I'm reflecting on like, what are the long-term implications of this? the long-term implications of this? the long-term implications of this? Even if we were to reverse course and Even if we were to reverse course and Even if we were to reverse course and try to find our way back, like what is try to find our way back, like what is try to find our way back, like what is the you know, what is the full extent of the you know, what is the full extent of the you know, what is the full extent of the damage that has been done? Yeah. And the damage that has been done? Yeah. And the damage that has been done? Yeah. And you see it played out in you see it played out in you see it played out in the psyche of the average person and the the psyche of the average person and the the psyche of the average person and the way they conduct themselves on social way they conduct themselves on social way they conduct themselves on social media, if that is, you know, kind of a media, if that is, you know, kind of a media, if that is, you know, kind of a reliable proxy for kind of where people reliable proxy for kind of where people reliable proxy for kind of where people are at. Yeah. Just the anger and the are at. Yeah. Just the anger and the are at. Yeah. Just the anger and the vitriol and the the division and the vitriol and the the division and the vitriol and the the division and the acrimony is is acrimony is is acrimony is is really at a level that is unprecedented. really at a level that is unprecedented. really at a level that is unprecedented. Totally. Totally. Totally. >> At least in my life. I actually think at >> At least in my life. I actually think at >> At least in my life. I actually think at this point this point this point you know, I used to want to sometimes you know, I used to want to sometimes you know, I used to want to sometimes online kind of correct people if I online kind of correct people if I online kind of correct people if I thought they were saying something thought they were saying something thought they were saying something wrong. And wrong. And wrong. And then I had a no fighting on Twitter then I had a no fighting on Twitter then I had a no fighting on Twitter policy so that that I implemented. But policy so that that I implemented. But policy so that that I implemented. But now I think it's also just getting older now I think it's also just getting older now I think it's also just getting older that I wouldn't fight on Twitter anyway that I wouldn't fight on Twitter anyway that I wouldn't fight on Twitter anyway and more mature, but and more mature, but and more mature, but I almost think that having a certain I almost think that having a certain I almost think that having a certain temperature and tone when you're in the temperature and tone when you're in the temperature and tone when you're in the public discourse public discourse public discourse is like a radical act of like staying is like a radical act of like staying is like a radical act of like staying moderate and not turning the temperature moderate and not turning the temperature moderate and not turning the temperature up. A lot of people are turning the up. A lot of people are turning the up. A lot of people are turning the temperature up for profit, right? And temperature up for profit, right? And temperature up for profit, right? And but but but I'm I'm almost less concerned with I'm I'm almost less concerned with I'm I'm almost less concerned with people saying something wrong now than people saying something wrong now than people saying something wrong now than if their tone than if they are uh if their tone than if they are uh if their tone than if they are uh conflict entrepreneurs. Mhm. You know, conflict entrepreneurs. Mhm. You know, conflict entrepreneurs. Mhm. You know, if that's what they're thriving off of if that's what they're thriving off of if that's what they're thriving off of building conflict. So, even if someone's building conflict. So, even if someone's building conflict. So, even if someone's wrong, but I think they have an earnest wrong, but I think they have an earnest wrong, but I think they have an earnest and civil tone, I'm like, I think you're and civil tone, I'm like, I think you're and civil tone, I'm like, I think you're contributing to the good side even if I contributing to the good side even if I contributing to the good side even if I think your idea is wrong. think your idea is wrong. think your idea is wrong. But the presumption that people are But the presumption that people are But the presumption that people are operating in good faith when you engage operating in good faith when you engage operating in good faith when you engage with them, you know, in my experience is with them, you know, in my experience is with them, you know, in my experience is quickly, you know, becoming eroded. Like quickly, you know, becoming eroded. Like quickly, you know, becoming eroded. Like now I'm beginning to assume that, you now I'm beginning to assume that, you now I'm beginning to assume that, you know, this that people are are, you know, this that people are are, you know, this that people are are, you know, I'm going to assume first that know, I'm going to assume first that know, I'm going to assume first that they're not operating in good faith. they're not operating in good faith. they're not operating in good faith. Like that's been flipped. Like that's been flipped. Like that's been flipped. >> And that's like a terrible >> And that's like a terrible >> And that's like a terrible >> Yeah, it's terrible. >> Yeah, it's terrible. >> Yeah, it's terrible. >> flip to have. I mean, ultimately, I >> flip to have. I mean, ultimately, I >> flip to have. I mean, ultimately, I think, you know, we're a hyper social think, you know, we're a hyper social think, you know, we're a hyper social species that survives by collaborating species that survives by collaborating species that survives by collaborating in huge groups, and I think in the long in huge groups, and I think in the long in huge groups, and I think in the long term that could really undermine it. But term that could really undermine it. But term that could really undermine it. But on the topic of on the topic of on the topic of institutions, norms, and trust, institutions, norms, and trust, institutions, norms, and trust, I'm reminded what you shared reminded me I'm reminded what you shared reminded me I'm reminded what you shared reminded me of of of of Yuval Noah Harari's kind of of Yuval Noah Harari's kind of of Yuval Noah Harari's kind of perspective on this, which is perspective on this, which is perspective on this, which is essentially essentially essentially that human beings have built societies that human beings have built societies that human beings have built societies based upon stories. And whether it's a based upon stories. And whether it's a based upon stories. And whether it's a border or a corporation or, you know, a border or a corporation or, you know, a border or a corporation or, you know, a government institution, government institution, government institution, it's essentially an imagined story that it's essentially an imagined story that it's essentially an imagined story that we all buy into, and that engenders we all buy into, and that engenders we all buy into, and that engenders trust and allows us to function as a trust and allows us to function as a trust and allows us to function as a society. When you erode these norms and society. When you erode these norms and society. When you erode these norms and you degrade the trust, these stories you degrade the trust, these stories you degrade the trust, these stories start to become porous, and they start to become porous, and they start to become porous, and they degrade, and with it our trust. And degrade, and with it our trust. And degrade, and with it our trust. And how does a society move forward and how does a society move forward and how does a society move forward and cohere when, you know, we can't all cohere when, you know, we can't all cohere when, you know, we can't all agree upon some shared story of reality? agree upon some shared story of reality? agree upon some shared story of reality? Yeah, I mean, the the foundational Yeah, I mean, the the foundational Yeah, I mean, the the foundational stories are like to your point about stories are like to your point about stories are like to your point about Harari, that's what allows human Harari, that's what allows human Harari, that's what allows human collective action. That's one of the collective action. That's one of the collective action. That's one of the reasons why we're special, right? reasons why we're special, right? reasons why we're special, right? Symbolic language, we can have stories Symbolic language, we can have stories Symbolic language, we can have stories that are agreed upon, shared abstract that are agreed upon, shared abstract that are agreed upon, shared abstract ideas ideas ideas that allow us to all move in a direction that allow us to all move in a direction that allow us to all move in a direction together. I think we don't have that together. I think we don't have that together. I think we don't have that then we won't all move together, then we won't all move together, then we won't all move together, basically. Then you don't have basically. Then you don't have basically. Then you don't have collective action. So, I'm hoping we can collective action. So, I'm hoping we can collective action. So, I'm hoping we can find a way to kind of rewrite some of find a way to kind of rewrite some of find a way to kind of rewrite some of our shared stories. our shared stories. our shared stories. You know, I hope out of some of this You know, I hope out of some of this You know, I hope out of some of this crisis there'll be an opportunity to do crisis there'll be an opportunity to do crisis there'll be an opportunity to do some of that. Because if we if we don't some of that. Because if we if we don't some of that. Because if we if we don't have some agreed upon social norms, have some agreed upon social norms, have some agreed upon social norms, again, going to Douglas North's work, again, going to Douglas North's work, again, going to Douglas North's work, just the long-run fate of the nation just the long-run fate of the nation just the long-run fate of the nation just looks a lot worse. just looks a lot worse. just looks a lot worse. Period. Period. Period. >> Mhm. >> Mhm. >> Mhm. And a norm, I suppose on some level, is And a norm, I suppose on some level, is And a norm, I suppose on some level, is a constraint. Absolutely. I mean, that's a constraint. Absolutely. I mean, that's a constraint. Absolutely. I mean, that's what Douglas North called it, and that's what Douglas North called it, and that's what Douglas North called it, and that's what he won the Nobel Prize for, and what he won the Nobel Prize for, and what he won the Nobel Prize for, and what in showing that these norms what in showing that these norms what in showing that these norms preceded rather than followed preceded rather than followed preceded rather than followed technological innovation. Where social technological innovation. Where social technological innovation. Where social norms would come up that gave people norms would come up that gave people norms would come up that gave people freedom within a framework, ability to freedom within a framework, ability to freedom within a framework, ability to collaborate because they understood how collaborate because they understood how collaborate because they understood how other people would work. And and that other people would work. And and that other people would work. And and that led to That was one of his great led to That was one of his great led to That was one of his great paradigm shifts was showing that these paradigm shifts was showing that these paradigm shifts was showing that these changes of norms preceded rather than changes of norms preceded rather than changes of norms preceded rather than followed technological innovation and followed technological innovation and followed technological innovation and and enabled it. and enabled it. and enabled it. The core of your work always comes back The core of your work always comes back The core of your work always comes back to this idea of how we can be a little to this idea of how we can be a little to this idea of how we can be a little bit better. bit better. bit better. Um at work, at home, in our Um at work, at home, in our Um at work, at home, in our relationships, with respect to whatever relationships, with respect to whatever relationships, with respect to whatever goal that we're working towards or or goal that we're working towards or or goal that we're working towards or or thing that we're trying to realize in thing that we're trying to realize in thing that we're trying to realize in our life. And I'm curious cuz I've been our life. And I'm curious cuz I've been our life. And I'm curious cuz I've been thinking a lot about change, like how thinking a lot about change, like how thinking a lot about change, like how you think about change. What really you think about change. What really you think about change. What really drives change and what differentiates drives change and what differentiates drives change and what differentiates someone who could read a book like yours someone who could read a book like yours someone who could read a book like yours and go, "Got it. I'm putting it into and go, "Got it. I'm putting it into and go, "Got it. I'm putting it into action, and wow, my life's already action, and wow, my life's already action, and wow, my life's already getting better." getting better." getting better." versus the person who might read your versus the person who might read your versus the person who might read your book and still get still be stuck and book and still get still be stuck and book and still get still be stuck and and and unable to actually translate and and unable to actually translate and and unable to actually translate self-awareness or information into self-awareness or information into self-awareness or information into positive action. positive action. positive action. >> That is such an interesting question. >> That is such an interesting question. >> That is such an interesting question. And so, I'll speak from my own And so, I'll speak from my own And so, I'll speak from my own experience of a lot of books that have experience of a lot of books that have experience of a lot of books that have changed me and what's made the changed me and what's made the changed me and what's made the difference. I think, and maybe this will difference. I think, and maybe this will difference. I think, and maybe this will go to the medium being the message of go to the medium being the message of go to the medium being the message of constraints is constraints is constraints is picking something small to start with picking something small to start with picking something small to start with and and picking one thing. Even I and and picking one thing. Even I and and picking one thing. Even I haven't implemented everything that my haven't implemented everything that my haven't implemented everything that my book implies one should be doing. But book implies one should be doing. But book implies one should be doing. But there are some things that I there are some things that I there are some things that I implemented. But you got to get back to implemented. But you got to get back to implemented. But you got to get back to the dance videos. To the dance Yeah, I the dance videos. To the dance Yeah, I the dance videos. To the dance Yeah, I Do you know how I got interested in that Do you know how I got interested in that Do you know how I got interested in that kind of dancing, by the way? kind of dancing, by the way? kind of dancing, by the way? It was during the research process, I It was during the research process, I It was during the research process, I saw a documentary about shuffle dancing. saw a documentary about shuffle dancing. saw a documentary about shuffle dancing. And it's it's created in crowded clubs And it's it's created in crowded clubs And it's it's created in crowded clubs in Melbourne when people had limited in Melbourne when people had limited in Melbourne when people had limited space and wanted to be able to change space and wanted to be able to change space and wanted to be able to change direction quickly with limited That's direction quickly with limited That's direction quickly with limited That's why it ended up being good for Instagram why it ended up being good for Instagram why it ended up being good for Instagram because people have to change direction because people have to change direction because people have to change direction in really small space. So I was like, in really small space. So I was like, in really small space. So I was like, "Oh, this is right up my alley. Let me "Oh, this is right up my alley. Let me "Oh, this is right up my alley. Let me do this." So It was it was a courageous do this." So It was it was a courageous do this." So It was it was a courageous act. I act. I act. I >> learn how to dance and make videos and >> learn how to dance and make videos and >> learn how to dance and make videos and put those on social media. put those on social media. put those on social media. >> Well, when I first did it, I had like >> Well, when I first did it, I had like >> Well, when I first did it, I had like 100 followers who were my friends. 100 followers who were my friends. 100 followers who were my friends. >> [laughter] >> [laughter] >> [laughter] >> Now I'm starting to make like other >> Now I'm starting to make like other >> Now I'm starting to make like other videos and so now I'm much getting more videos and so now I'm much getting more videos and so now I'm much getting more self-conscious about it. So I think I self-conscious about it. So I think I self-conscious about it. So I think I should I go back and delete them or should I go back and delete them or should I go back and delete them or actually do more. I don't know what the actually do more. I don't know what the actually do more. I don't know what the answer is. answer is. answer is. Um but I think just picking off one Um but I think just picking off one Um but I think just picking off one thing that seems like a reasonable thing that seems like a reasonable thing that seems like a reasonable personal experiment because personal experiment because personal experiment because I don't want people with my book or any I don't want people with my book or any I don't want people with my book or any other book other book other book to feel that what the hell effect where to feel that what the hell effect where to feel that what the hell effect where you have to change everything tomorrow you have to change everything tomorrow you have to change everything tomorrow and then and then and then you don't do it and you say, "Well, you don't do it and you say, "Well, you don't do it and you say, "Well, forget it." Throw the baby out with the forget it." Throw the baby out with the forget it." Throw the baby out with the bathwater. If you do that thing of like bathwater. If you do that thing of like bathwater. If you do that thing of like putting all your current commitments up putting all your current commitments up putting all your current commitments up on the wall, say if I had to cut out one on the wall, say if I had to cut out one on the wall, say if I had to cut out one thing in the next 90 days, what would it thing in the next 90 days, what would it thing in the next 90 days, what would it be? And maybe try that. Maybe try one be? And maybe try that. Maybe try one be? And maybe try that. Maybe try one week week week where where where you don't look at email first thing in you don't look at email first thing in you don't look at email first thing in the morning and you do some of your the morning and you do some of your the morning and you do some of your other important work. So it's not other important work. So it's not other important work. So it's not you don't fall prey to this thing called you don't fall prey to this thing called you don't fall prey to this thing called the Zeigarnik effect where open things the Zeigarnik effect where open things the Zeigarnik effect where open things that you haven't answered occupy your that you haven't answered occupy your that you haven't answered occupy your brain so you can't do other stuff. brain so you can't do other stuff. brain so you can't do other stuff. Take take Take just one thing and and Take take Take just one thing and and Take take Take just one thing and and implement that instead of implement that instead of implement that instead of worrying about doing all of the stuff. worrying about doing all of the stuff. worrying about doing all of the stuff. Cuz Cuz Cuz I just think that can feel so I just think that can feel so I just think that can feel so overwhelming. It's like if I only did overwhelming. It's like if I only did overwhelming. It's like if I only did these 20 things, everything would be these 20 things, everything would be these 20 things, everything would be perfect. Like perfect. Like perfect. Like one experiment at a time. One experiment one experiment at a time. One experiment one experiment at a time. One experiment at a time. at a time. at a time. It's one thing to say constraints drive It's one thing to say constraints drive It's one thing to say constraints drive creativity. creativity. creativity. Uh another thing to say constraints drive another thing to say constraints drive productivity. This is kind of like a Cal productivity. This is kind of like a Cal productivity. This is kind of like a Cal Newport idea, deep work, like put your Newport idea, deep work, like put your Newport idea, deep work, like put your phone in a lock box and, you know, like phone in a lock box and, you know, like phone in a lock box and, you know, like don't check you only check your email don't check you only check your email don't check you only check your email twice a day, etc. He's my neighbor. I've twice a day, etc. He's my neighbor. I've twice a day, etc. He's my neighbor. I've taken a few tips from him that I did taken a few tips from him that I did taken a few tips from him that I did implement in my life. implement in my life. implement in my life. >> Yeah, that's an interesting brain trust, >> Yeah, that's an interesting brain trust, >> Yeah, that's an interesting brain trust, you know. And Dan Pink, it's like we're you know. And Dan Pink, it's like we're you know. And Dan Pink, it's like we're all like in the all like in the all like in the That's very cool. I'm imagining these That's very cool. I'm imagining these That's very cool. I'm imagining these salons of, you know, you [laughter] salons of, you know, you [laughter] salons of, you know, you [laughter] you sitting around exchanging you sitting around exchanging you sitting around exchanging high-minded ideas over a whiskey or high-minded ideas over a whiskey or high-minded ideas over a whiskey or something. You might be disappointed something. You might be disappointed something. You might be disappointed about the high-mindedness of the ideas, about the high-mindedness of the ideas, about the high-mindedness of the ideas, but but but >> [laughter] >> [laughter] >> [laughter] >> Um >> Um >> Um but it's another thing altogether to tie but it's another thing altogether to tie but it's another thing altogether to tie this idea of constraints to happiness. this idea of constraints to happiness. this idea of constraints to happiness. So, I want to spend some time around how So, I want to spend some time around how So, I want to spend some time around how you kind of arrived on that and and, you you kind of arrived on that and and, you you kind of arrived on that and and, you know, what the what the support for that know, what the what the support for that know, what the what the support for that notion is. Yeah. notion is. Yeah. notion is. Yeah. There are a few different things where I There are a few different things where I There are a few different things where I think about constraints and happiness. think about constraints and happiness. think about constraints and happiness. One we talked about a little, which is One we talked about a little, which is One we talked about a little, which is setting these satisficing rules, right? setting these satisficing rules, right? setting these satisficing rules, right? Which is not falling prey to maximizing Which is not falling prey to maximizing Which is not falling prey to maximizing and trying to optimize all of your and trying to optimize all of your and trying to optimize all of your decisions and setting those good enough decisions and setting those good enough decisions and setting those good enough rules and just sticking to them. It rules and just sticking to them. It rules and just sticking to them. It shows that people are happier. Mhm. That shows that people are happier. Mhm. That shows that people are happier. Mhm. That they're happier with their lives, they're happier with their lives, they're happier with their lives, they're happier with their decisions. they're happier with their decisions. they're happier with their decisions. Not agonizing after you make the Not agonizing after you make the Not agonizing after you make the decision, right? Herbert Simon, who came decision, right? Herbert Simon, who came decision, right? Herbert Simon, who came up with satisficing, he was very much up with satisficing, he was very much up with satisficing, he was very much like that. And he he simplified his own like that. And he he simplified his own like that. And he he simplified his own life in many ways. He said, you you only life in many ways. He said, you you only life in many ways. He said, you you only need three pairs of clothes, one in the need three pairs of clothes, one in the need three pairs of clothes, one in the wash, wash, wash, uh one in the closet, one on your body. uh one in the closet, one on your body. uh one in the closet, one on your body. And he he kind of simplified everything And he he kind of simplified everything And he he kind of simplified everything he possibly could. he possibly could. he possibly could. Um to save his bandwidth for things that Um to save his bandwidth for things that Um to save his bandwidth for things that were were more important. were were more important. were were more important. >> Minimalism as a a lifestyle constraint. >> Minimalism as a a lifestyle constraint. >> Minimalism as a a lifestyle constraint. >> And and at least in the places where >> And and at least in the places where >> And and at least in the places where it's not a big deal, right? If there's it's not a big deal, right? If there's it's not a big deal, right? If there's some places you want to agonize more, some places you want to agonize more, some places you want to agonize more, okay, but you don't have to do it in okay, but you don't have to do it in okay, but you don't have to do it in everything. And again, there are these everything. And again, there are these everything. And again, there are these surveys showing the rise of this surveys showing the rise of this surveys showing the rise of this kind of maximization of everything. Even kind of maximization of everything. Even kind of maximization of everything. Even there's interesting study that looked at there's interesting study that looked at there's interesting study that looked at as consumer options have exploded, as consumer options have exploded, as consumer options have exploded, people start to see the things they buy people start to see the things they buy people start to see the things they buy more of as an expression of their more of as an expression of their more of as an expression of their identity. And so, they start to feel identity. And so, they start to feel identity. And so, they start to feel this greater weight for every decision this greater weight for every decision this greater weight for every decision they made. So, just setting good enough they made. So, just setting good enough they made. So, just setting good enough criteria for some of these decisions. criteria for some of these decisions. criteria for some of these decisions. Satisficers are more happier are happier Satisficers are more happier are happier Satisficers are more happier are happier by almost every metric than are by almost every metric than are by almost every metric than are maximizers. And again, what I'm wary of maximizers. And again, what I'm wary of maximizers. And again, what I'm wary of is is that it sounds like have low is is that it sounds like have low is is that it sounds like have low standards. standards. standards. Satisficers don't necessarily have low Satisficers don't necessarily have low Satisficers don't necessarily have low standards, but they have standards at standards, but they have standards at standards, but they have standards at all other than best imaginable. And so, all other than best imaginable. And so, all other than best imaginable. And so, they have the possibility of being happy they have the possibility of being happy they have the possibility of being happy with their with their decisions. with their with their decisions. with their with their decisions. I think I think I think the other type of it and this is like the other type of it and this is like the other type of it and this is like the last chapter of the book is where I the last chapter of the book is where I the last chapter of the book is where I get sort of more personal and get sort of more personal and get sort of more personal and philosophical about kind of philosophical about kind of philosophical about kind of this more conceptual constraints in this more conceptual constraints in this more conceptual constraints in life, some of which have to do with life, some of which have to do with life, some of which have to do with grounding yourself in the real world. grounding yourself in the real world. grounding yourself in the real world. And I think of Robert Putnam, the And I think of Robert Putnam, the And I think of Robert Putnam, the political scientist who wrote the book political scientist who wrote the book political scientist who wrote the book Bowling Alone, which looks incredibly Bowling Alone, which looks incredibly Bowling Alone, which looks incredibly prescient in retrospect, where he talked prescient in retrospect, where he talked prescient in retrospect, where he talked about the decline of civic engagement about the decline of civic engagement about the decline of civic engagement and the impacts it would have on health and the impacts it would have on health and the impacts it would have on health and longevity. And this was around 2000 and longevity. And this was around 2000 and longevity. And this was around 2000 when he was writing it and saying, when he was writing it and saying, when he was writing it and saying, you know, people are retreating into you know, people are retreating into you know, people are retreating into their own world with TV, so they're not their own world with TV, so they're not their own world with TV, so they're not going to the bowling club anymore and going to the bowling club anymore and going to the bowling club anymore and having civic engagement. And he famously having civic engagement. And he famously having civic engagement. And he famously said, said, said, "Joining a club Joining one club cuts "Joining a club Joining one club cuts "Joining a club Joining one club cuts your risk of dying in the next year in your risk of dying in the next year in your risk of dying in the next year in half." That's kind of a rule of thumb. half." That's kind of a rule of thumb. half." That's kind of a rule of thumb. But now this analysis of about 150 But now this analysis of about 150 But now this analysis of about 150 studies with over 300,000 subjects studies with over 300,000 subjects studies with over 300,000 subjects pretty much backed him up that that kind pretty much backed him up that that kind pretty much backed him up that that kind of social integration has a a greater of social integration has a a greater of social integration has a a greater impact on survival than does quitting impact on survival than does quitting impact on survival than does quitting smoking for cardiac patients. smoking for cardiac patients. smoking for cardiac patients. Like grounding yourself in something Like grounding yourself in something Like grounding yourself in something real. It requires you to give up some real. It requires you to give up some real. It requires you to give up some scheduling autonomy. So, like when I scheduling autonomy. So, like when I scheduling autonomy. So, like when I started going to dance classes, I wasn't started going to dance classes, I wasn't started going to dance classes, I wasn't having any embodied experience with having any embodied experience with having any embodied experience with strangers, I realized. strangers, I realized. strangers, I realized. And I wanted some of that. And so, I And I wanted some of that. And so, I And I wanted some of that. And so, I started going to these meetups or started going to these meetups or started going to these meetups or classes and it it's it's an As an classes and it it's it's an As an classes and it it's it's an As an independent writer, independent writer, independent writer, I could have the absolute ultimate I could have the absolute ultimate I could have the absolute ultimate cocoon Yeah, lifestyle. cocoon Yeah, lifestyle. cocoon Yeah, lifestyle. There was a I was invited to a writer's There was a I was invited to a writer's There was a I was invited to a writer's retreat some years ago after Range and I retreat some years ago after Range and I retreat some years ago after Range and I was we all had to answer a question, was we all had to answer a question, was we all had to answer a question, "What are you optimizing for this year?" "What are you optimizing for this year?" "What are you optimizing for this year?" And I said autonomy. I thought what I And I said autonomy. I thought what I And I said autonomy. I thought what I always wanted as a writer was to spend always wanted as a writer was to spend always wanted as a writer was to spend every minute in a way of my own every minute in a way of my own every minute in a way of my own choosing. choosing. choosing. Fast forward 2 years, I realized there's Fast forward 2 years, I realized there's Fast forward 2 years, I realized there's such a thing as too much autonomy. Like such a thing as too much autonomy. Like such a thing as too much autonomy. Like I ended up in this individualized I ended up in this individualized I ended up in this individualized schedule I wasn't synced with anybody schedule I wasn't synced with anybody schedule I wasn't synced with anybody else. else. else. So started getting back in activities. I So started getting back in activities. I So started getting back in activities. I joined a club. I started going these joined a club. I started going these joined a club. I started going these dance things where dance things where dance things where it's annoying. I may have to go it's annoying. I may have to go it's annoying. I may have to go somewhere, you know, at the time may not somewhere, you know, at the time may not somewhere, you know, at the time may not fit my schedule, fit my schedule, fit my schedule, but it actually started to give me back but it actually started to give me back but it actually started to give me back some sense of syncing with other people some sense of syncing with other people some sense of syncing with other people and some sense of meaning. I started and some sense of meaning. I started and some sense of meaning. I started reading about like the Soviet Union had reading about like the Soviet Union had reading about like the Soviet Union had desynced everybody to keep factories desynced everybody to keep factories desynced everybody to keep factories going where they gave everybody a going where they gave everybody a going where they gave everybody a four-day work week and a one-day weekend four-day work week and a one-day weekend four-day work week and a one-day weekend and it was a social disaster because and it was a social disaster because and it was a social disaster because everyone had individualized schedules so everyone had individualized schedules so everyone had individualized schedules so they weren't synced up with other they weren't synced up with other they weren't synced up with other people. people. people. And so I think sacrificing some of your And so I think sacrificing some of your And so I think sacrificing some of your own scheduling autonomy own scheduling autonomy own scheduling autonomy to sync up with other people is a is a to sync up with other people is a is a to sync up with other people is a is a really important thing. So join really important thing. So join really important thing. So join something. Join anything. This is where something. Join anything. This is where something. Join anything. This is where the new book dovetails with Range the new book dovetails with Range the new book dovetails with Range because because because essentially what you're saying is essentially what you're saying is essentially what you're saying is we have this notion like let's say, we have this notion like let's say, we have this notion like let's say, okay, you're a writer. okay, you're a writer. okay, you're a writer. You've got an epiphany for a new book. You've got an epiphany for a new book. You've got an epiphany for a new book. The first thing that comes to mind is The first thing that comes to mind is The first thing that comes to mind is wouldn't it be great if I could just go wouldn't it be great if I could just go wouldn't it be great if I could just go to this cabin in the woods without a to this cabin in the woods without a to this cabin in the woods without a phone or anything and nobody could phone or anything and nobody could phone or anything and nobody could bother me and I would just write, you bother me and I would just write, you bother me and I would just write, you know, an absolute masterpiece because I know, an absolute masterpiece because I know, an absolute masterpiece because I wouldn't be distracted. wouldn't be distracted. wouldn't be distracted. But ultimately that is not in service to But ultimately that is not in service to But ultimately that is not in service to your best work. You're better off being your best work. You're better off being your best work. You're better off being at home where you're interacting with at home where you're interacting with at home where you're interacting with friends and going to a dance class and friends and going to a dance class and friends and going to a dance class and having people kind of impede upon, you having people kind of impede upon, you having people kind of impede upon, you know, your schedule in ways you probably know, your schedule in ways you probably know, your schedule in ways you probably prefer they didn't. But ultimately prefer they didn't. But ultimately prefer they didn't. But ultimately that's going to end up not only making that's going to end up not only making that's going to end up not only making you happy, but also the book that it you happy, but also the book that it you happy, but also the book that it might take longer for the book, but when might take longer for the book, but when might take longer for the book, but when the book comes out, it's probably going the book comes out, it's probably going the book comes out, it's probably going to be a better book. I don't know if it to be a better book. I don't know if it to be a better book. I don't know if it does take longer also. I'll say this does take longer also. I'll say this does take longer also. I'll say this book was a new experience for me. And book was a new experience for me. And book was a new experience for me. And there was one cabin in the woods thing I there was one cabin in the woods thing I there was one cabin in the woods thing I did cuz I wanted to put constraints on did cuz I wanted to put constraints on did cuz I wanted to put constraints on myself cuz I've had These are different myself cuz I've had These are different myself cuz I've had These are different kinds of constraint. The The cabin in kinds of constraint. The The cabin in kinds of constraint. The The cabin in the woods is a constraint is it's a the woods is a constraint is it's a the woods is a constraint is it's a different kind of constraint. And the different kind of constraint. And the different kind of constraint. And the My first two books I wrote 150% of a My first two books I wrote 150% of a My first two books I wrote 150% of a book to get one book because I had not book to get one book because I had not book to get one book because I had not drawn a a boundary around drawn a a boundary around drawn a a boundary around the project. Then I became a dad and the project. Then I became a dad and the project. Then I became a dad and said, "I cut a trip to Arctic Sweden for said, "I cut a trip to Arctic Sweden for said, "I cut a trip to Arctic Sweden for my first book." Right? To Brad's point, my first book." Right? To Brad's point, my first book." Right? To Brad's point, I went to Arctic Sweden for something I went to Arctic Sweden for something I went to Arctic Sweden for something that didn't end up in the book. that didn't end up in the book. that didn't end up in the book. And And And I can't be doing this now that I have a I can't be doing this now that I have a I can't be doing this now that I have a kid. kid. kid. And so, and I need my work day to end at And so, and I need my work day to end at And so, and I need my work day to end at a certain point. a certain point. a certain point. >> Uh-huh. And so, I did a few things like >> Uh-huh. And so, I did a few things like >> Uh-huh. And so, I did a few things like >> that contrasting that with the idea that >> that contrasting that with the idea that >> that contrasting that with the idea that like, "Well, this kid is very like, "Well, this kid is very like, "Well, this kid is very inconvenient to like my writing inconvenient to like my writing inconvenient to like my writing lifestyle." lifestyle." lifestyle." >> inconvenient. [laughter] >> inconvenient. [laughter] >> inconvenient. [laughter] Incredibly Incredibly Incredibly Adds all this meaning to my life, Adds all this meaning to my life, Adds all this meaning to my life, >> Yeah. but super inconvenient. And so, I >> Yeah. but super inconvenient. And so, I >> Yeah. but super inconvenient. And so, I This time I did I have this thing I call This time I did I have this thing I call This time I did I have this thing I call a master thought list that's all my a master thought list that's all my a master thought list that's all my ideas. It's arranged in a certain way. I ideas. It's arranged in a certain way. I ideas. It's arranged in a certain way. I printed it out. I went to a hermitage in printed it out. I went to a hermitage in printed it out. I went to a hermitage in the garden of a Franciscan monastery for the garden of a Franciscan monastery for the garden of a Franciscan monastery for 2 days, but didn't talk to anybody, no 2 days, but didn't talk to anybody, no 2 days, but didn't talk to anybody, no internet, nothing. internet, nothing. internet, nothing. Read through it. Said And it's well Read through it. Said And it's well Read through it. Said And it's well longer than the book. Whichever ideas longer than the book. Whichever ideas longer than the book. Whichever ideas are stuck in my head now, I'm doing a are stuck in my head now, I'm doing a are stuck in my head now, I'm doing a one-page outline for this book. If it's one-page outline for this book. If it's one-page outline for this book. If it's not on that page, it's not in the book. not on that page, it's not in the book. not on that page, it's not in the book. And this is the first time the book is And this is the first time the book is And this is the first time the book is 20% shorter. It's the first time I 20% shorter. It's the first time I 20% shorter. It's the first time I didn't overwrite it. I turned it in didn't overwrite it. I turned it in didn't overwrite it. I turned it in early. And this is the first time I had early. And this is the first time I had early. And this is the first time I had a work day that ended. In the past, I a work day that ended. In the past, I a work day that ended. In the past, I said my competitive advantage will be said my competitive advantage will be said my competitive advantage will be that I will let this swallow my life, that I will let this swallow my life, that I will let this swallow my life, and then I'll recover afterward. and then I'll recover afterward. and then I'll recover afterward. This time This time This time I borrowed from one of the characters in I borrowed from one of the characters in I borrowed from one of the characters in the book, Isabel Allende, one of the the book, Isabel Allende, one of the the book, Isabel Allende, one of the greatest living writers. greatest living writers. greatest living writers. I got to follow her through sort of her I got to follow her through sort of her I got to follow her through sort of her writing routine. And one piece of it, writing routine. And one piece of it, writing routine. And one piece of it, she starts her books on the same day she starts her books on the same day she starts her books on the same day every year, but one piece of it was she every year, but one piece of it was she every year, but one piece of it was she lit a candle to start every work day, lit a candle to start every work day, lit a candle to start every work day, turns it off, close blows it out, closes turns it off, close blows it out, closes turns it off, close blows it out, closes the door to end the work day, and that's the door to end the work day, and that's the door to end the work day, and that's shut down. shut down. shut down. I took that ritual. I I use electric I took that ritual. I I use electric I took that ritual. I I use electric candles. I have too much She's braver candles. I have too much She's braver candles. I have too much She's braver than I, and I have paper in my office, than I, and I have paper in my office, than I, and I have paper in my office, but but but Cal does that, too, actually. He says Cal does that, too, actually. He says Cal does that, too, actually. He says like, "System shutting down." at the end like, "System shutting down." at the end like, "System shutting down." at the end of his day. And so, for the first time, of his day. And so, for the first time, of his day. And so, for the first time, I said I have a time when my work day is I said I have a time when my work day is I said I have a time when my work day is going to end. going to end. going to end. And I turned my book in early. I I know And I turned my book in early. I I know And I turned my book in early. I I know I sat around for 2 weeks saying, "I'm I sat around for 2 weeks saying, "I'm I sat around for 2 weeks saying, "I'm early. I can't possibly turn it in. I early. I can't possibly turn it in. I early. I can't possibly turn it in. I have to keep tinkering." I never would have to keep tinkering." I never would have to keep tinkering." I never would have thought like, "My plan is to turn have thought like, "My plan is to turn have thought like, "My plan is to turn it in at 5:00 p.m. on the day it's due it in at 5:00 p.m. on the day it's due it in at 5:00 p.m. on the day it's due in the contract." in the contract." in the contract." But I think I'd forgotten what I knew But I think I'd forgotten what I knew But I think I'd forgotten what I knew from like athletic training, which was from like athletic training, which was from like athletic training, which was you're better when recovery is part of you're better when recovery is part of you're better when recovery is part of the program, when you program in the the program, when you program in the the program, when you program in the recovery instead of just letting it recovery instead of just letting it recovery instead of just letting it swallow everything. And so, I would swallow everything. And so, I would swallow everything. And so, I would I think I was both better and faster. I think I was both better and faster. I think I was both better and faster. Listening to that story, I'm I'm hearing Listening to that story, I'm I'm hearing Listening to that story, I'm I'm hearing you, the scientist, and I'm hearing Cal, you, the scientist, and I'm hearing Cal, you, the scientist, and I'm hearing Cal, the, you know, computer scientist. Yeah. the, you know, computer scientist. Yeah. the, you know, computer scientist. Yeah. You know, people who are trying to like, You know, people who are trying to like, You know, people who are trying to like, you know, de- decode like, you know, how you know, de- decode like, you know, how you know, de- decode like, you know, how to function, you know, in the world at a to function, you know, in the world at a to function, you know, in the world at a you know, at a at an op- in an optimal you know, at a at an op- in an optimal you know, at a at an op- in an optimal way or a good enough way, I suppose. way or a good enough way, I suppose. way or a good enough way, I suppose. But then I hear But like But like what But then I hear But like But like what But then I hear But like But like what is so funny about this story that you is so funny about this story that you is so funny about this story that you just shared is like, you used the just shared is like, you used the just shared is like, you used the example of Allende and like this this example of Allende and like this this example of Allende and like this this beautiful practice of like her lighting beautiful practice of like her lighting beautiful practice of like her lighting a candle and, you know, like I a candle and, you know, like I a candle and, you know, like I And what's missing in your and Cal's And what's missing in your and Cal's And what's missing in your and Cal's analysis of that is her treating analysis of that is her treating analysis of that is her treating that as a ritual, like a sacred ritual. that as a ritual, like a sacred ritual. that as a ritual, like a sacred ritual. Like it has a certain energy to it that Like it has a certain energy to it that Like it has a certain energy to it that that is is that is is that is is beckoning and demanding a level of like beckoning and demanding a level of like beckoning and demanding a level of like reverence. reverence. reverence. >> Yeah. Right? >> Yeah. Right? >> Yeah. Right? >> Yeah. That maybe gets missed in the, you >> Yeah. That maybe gets missed in the, you >> Yeah. That maybe gets missed in the, you know, the ones and zeros of the Cal know, the ones and zeros of the Cal know, the ones and zeros of the Cal Newport brain. Newport brain. Newport brain. >> No question. I see you're you're very >> No question. I see you're you're very >> No question. I see you're you're very diplomatically and eloquently calling us diplomatically and eloquently calling us diplomatically and eloquently calling us robotic and and her wonderful, which is robotic and and her wonderful, which is robotic and and her wonderful, which is which is true. Um but I mean, everything which is true. Um but I mean, everything which is true. Um but I mean, everything about writing still has like a spiritual about writing still has like a spiritual about writing still has like a spiritual mystique to me. Like I still see books mystique to me. Like I still see books mystique to me. Like I still see books as these magical little puzzle boxes as these magical little puzzle boxes as these magical little puzzle boxes that are more mysterious to me than like that are more mysterious to me than like that are more mysterious to me than like any technology really is. So, any technology really is. So, any technology really is. So, I do have a feeling, you know, and I I do have a feeling, you know, and I I do have a feeling, you know, and I look at I have a library in my office look at I have a library in my office look at I have a library in my office and I look at the books that I admire and I look at the books that I admire and I look at the books that I admire and still wonder how people got these and still wonder how people got these and still wonder how people got these things done. I look at even my own books things done. I look at even my own books things done. I look at even my own books and wonder how I got them done. and wonder how I got them done. and wonder how I got them done. I'm not all the way on the end of the I'm not all the way on the end of the I'm not all the way on the end of the Isabel Allende spectrum where she puts Isabel Allende spectrum where she puts Isabel Allende spectrum where she puts like a book of Pablo Neruda poetry under like a book of Pablo Neruda poetry under like a book of Pablo Neruda poetry under her computer just in case her computer just in case her computer just in case uh beauty by osmosis is a thing that uh beauty by osmosis is a thing that uh beauty by osmosis is a thing that will will get into her writing. will will get into her writing. will will get into her writing. Um Um Um but I do feel that ritual gets me in a but I do feel that ritual gets me in a but I do feel that ritual gets me in a sort of state of sort of state of sort of state of sort of a sacred space, I guess, for for sort of a sacred space, I guess, for for sort of a sacred space, I guess, for for doing what I want to do that doing what I want to do that doing what I want to do that I rarely inhabit in other times. You I rarely inhabit in other times. You I rarely inhabit in other times. You know, may- maybe sometimes when I'm know, may- maybe sometimes when I'm know, may- maybe sometimes when I'm floating on a forest trail or something floating on a forest trail or something floating on a forest trail or something like that, I feel that way. like that, I feel that way. like that, I feel that way. But the ritual for writing does make me But the ritual for writing does make me But the ritual for writing does make me feel that way. I mean, it really is the feel that way. I mean, it really is the feel that way. I mean, it really is the doing that brings me back, right? If I'm doing that brings me back, right? If I'm doing that brings me back, right? If I'm glad I'm forced to produce a book glad I'm forced to produce a book glad I'm forced to produce a book because otherwise I'd probably do it and because otherwise I'd probably do it and because otherwise I'd probably do it and and and never put it out there, but and and never put it out there, but and and never put it out there, but >> This takes us back to Tom Sachs and this >> This takes us back to Tom Sachs and this >> This takes us back to Tom Sachs and this idea that he has, idea that he has, idea that he has, called nolling. He used to be a called nolling. He used to be a called nolling. He used to be a furniture designer for Knoll, and Knoll furniture designer for Knoll, and Knoll furniture designer for Knoll, and Knoll has all of these rules about how you has all of these rules about how you has all of these rules about how you should organize your workspace. And when should organize your workspace. And when should organize your workspace. And when you're you're you're facing a creative block, his sort of facing a creative block, his sort of facing a creative block, his sort of practice is always be nolling. Okay, so practice is always be nolling. Okay, so practice is always be nolling. Okay, so that's fine. So, all right, well then, that's fine. So, all right, well then, that's fine. So, all right, well then, you know, clean your workspace or you know, clean your workspace or you know, clean your workspace or whatever. And there's something sacred whatever. And there's something sacred whatever. And there's something sacred about that. It's cheeky, like this idea about that. It's cheeky, like this idea about that. It's cheeky, like this idea that he has, but the idea is you have to that he has, but the idea is you have to that he has, but the idea is you have to acclimate yourself into the creative acclimate yourself into the creative acclimate yourself into the creative kind of head space in order to like do kind of head space in order to like do kind of head space in order to like do your thing. And whether it's lighting a your thing. And whether it's lighting a your thing. And whether it's lighting a candle or organizing your pens or candle or organizing your pens or candle or organizing your pens or whatever, what feels like whatever, what feels like whatever, what feels like procrastination or maybe trivial or procrastination or maybe trivial or procrastination or maybe trivial or frivolous is actually essential to um frivolous is actually essential to um frivolous is actually essential to um kind of luring yourself lulling yourself kind of luring yourself lulling yourself kind of luring yourself lulling yourself into the head space where you can do into the head space where you can do into the head space where you can do your best work. your best work. your best work. >> It's interesting that, you know, we >> It's interesting that, you know, we >> It's interesting that, you know, we think of creative people as just this think of creative people as just this think of creative people as just this like free-flowing, you know, they're like free-flowing, you know, they're like free-flowing, you know, they're they're like wandering around like a they're like wandering around like a they're like wandering around like a undersea plants, you know, being undersea plants, you know, being undersea plants, you know, being whatever the wave takes them and then whatever the wave takes them and then whatever the wave takes them and then being hit by inspiration. being hit by inspiration. being hit by inspiration. >> [gasps] >> [gasps] >> [gasps] >> But when I was reading a tons of work >> But when I was reading a tons of work >> But when I was reading a tons of work about the habits and rituals of about the habits and rituals of about the habits and rituals of creators while working on this book, creators while working on this book, creators while working on this book, and it's pretty remarkable how and it's pretty remarkable how and it's pretty remarkable how structured they are. Like, they all have structured they are. Like, they all have structured they are. Like, they all have these sort of regularities and rituals. these sort of regularities and rituals. these sort of regularities and rituals. And I think it's And I think it's And I think it's really what liberates them to perform really what liberates them to perform really what liberates them to perform within that. It gets them in that within that. It gets them in that within that. It gets them in that performance mindset, you know, just like performance mindset, you know, just like performance mindset, you know, just like someone before shooting a free throw or someone before shooting a free throw or someone before shooting a free throw or doing whatever the figure skating doing whatever the figure skating doing whatever the figure skating routine has kind of that routine that routine has kind of that routine that routine has kind of that routine that gets them in the mindset. gets them in the mindset. gets them in the mindset. Um and I think it does create that Um and I think it does create that Um and I think it does create that space. space. space. Um but it can I I think it can be it can Um but it can I I think it can be it can Um but it can I I think it can be it can seem surprisingly rigid from the outside seem surprisingly rigid from the outside seem surprisingly rigid from the outside when you're thinking about people doing when you're thinking about people doing when you're thinking about people doing creative work, but I think it's actually creative work, but I think it's actually creative work, but I think it's actually like that structure that gets people in like that structure that gets people in like that structure that gets people in the space. And And I have I implemented the space. And And I have I implemented the space. And And I have I implemented other stuff like other stuff like other stuff like you know, I like to borrow anywhere you you know, I like to borrow anywhere you you know, I like to borrow anywhere you see good ideas. So like Hemingway would see good ideas. So like Hemingway would see good ideas. So like Hemingway would end on end on end on in the middle of a sentence so that he in the middle of a sentence so that he in the middle of a sentence so that he automatically knew where he was going to automatically knew where he was going to automatically knew where he was going to pick up the next day. Yeah, that's very pick up the next day. Yeah, that's very pick up the next day. Yeah, that's very helpful to me, too. Cuz I I get cut If I helpful to me, too. Cuz I I get cut If I helpful to me, too. Cuz I I get cut If I don't know where where I'm picking up don't know where where I'm picking up don't know where where I'm picking up the next day, then I'll just I'll just the next day, then I'll just I'll just the next day, then I'll just I'll just wander around and do nothing. wander around and do nothing. wander around and do nothing. >> You do that for a while if you're not. >> You do that for a while if you're not. >> You do that for a while if you're not. So I like to do that because then I come So I like to do that because then I come So I like to do that because then I come back and I'm like I'm I'm I'm positive back and I'm like I'm I'm I'm positive back and I'm like I'm I'm I'm positive of something that I can do right now of something that I can do right now of something that I can do right now that's important where I start and it's that's important where I start and it's that's important where I start and it's not opening my email. It's starting with not opening my email. It's starting with not opening my email. It's starting with this thing. So lots of those like this thing. So lots of those like this thing. So lots of those like structures and rituals. On the uh structures and rituals. On the uh structures and rituals. On the uh subject of having your feet planted subject of having your feet planted subject of having your feet planted firmly on the ground while also reaching firmly on the ground while also reaching firmly on the ground while also reaching for the stars like the there's you and for the stars like the there's you and for the stars like the there's you and Cal and then there's Ayende. I'm curious Cal and then there's Ayende. I'm curious Cal and then there's Ayende. I'm curious around how you think about goals. You around how you think about goals. You around how you think about goals. You have some interesting ideas around goal have some interesting ideas around goal have some interesting ideas around goal setting and and and working towards setting and and and working towards setting and and and working towards goals. And I've I've kind of evolved my goals. And I've I've kind of evolved my goals. And I've I've kind of evolved my thinking on this. thinking on this. thinking on this. Certainly, you know, goals have been Certainly, you know, goals have been Certainly, you know, goals have been crucial in my life and have, you know, crucial in my life and have, you know, crucial in my life and have, you know, kind of helped me go from where I was to kind of helped me go from where I was to kind of helped me go from where I was to where I am in in many stages of my life. where I am in in many stages of my life. where I am in in many stages of my life. And there's a practicality to that and And there's a practicality to that and And there's a practicality to that and um um um a functionality to that and it's like a functionality to that and it's like a functionality to that and it's like arithmetic like you set it, you calendar arithmetic like you set it, you calendar arithmetic like you set it, you calendar it, there's a way to do it. And when it it, there's a way to do it. And when it it, there's a way to do it. And when it works, it's great. It engenders works, it's great. It engenders works, it's great. It engenders self-esteem and it progresses your life self-esteem and it progresses your life self-esteem and it progresses your life in positive directions. But in positive directions. But in positive directions. But as I reflect on my life now and identify as I reflect on my life now and identify as I reflect on my life now and identify like the most meaningful experiences like the most meaningful experiences like the most meaningful experiences that I've had and really how I went from that I've had and really how I went from that I've had and really how I went from where I was to where I am right now, where I was to where I am right now, where I was to where I am right now, it really has nothing to do with goals. it really has nothing to do with goals. it really has nothing to do with goals. And so [snorts] I'm thinking about goals And so [snorts] I'm thinking about goals And so [snorts] I'm thinking about goals as something to almost transcend as something to almost transcend as something to almost transcend on some level. So, I'm curious around on some level. So, I'm curious around on some level. So, I'm curious around your thoughts on this. I mean, I'd be your thoughts on this. I mean, I'd be your thoughts on this. I mean, I'd be interested to hear you hear hear you say interested to hear you hear hear you say interested to hear you hear hear you say more about that about what you think did more about that about what you think did more about that about what you think did do it for you. do it for you. do it for you. Um Um Um but I kind of agree with that. I mean, but I kind of agree with that. I mean, but I kind of agree with that. I mean, I've always I would say when I was I've always I would say when I was I've always I would say when I was teenager or early 20s, teenager or early 20s, teenager or early 20s, I was incredibly long-term goal-driven, I was incredibly long-term goal-driven, I was incredibly long-term goal-driven, right? I knew all the things I was going right? I knew all the things I was going right? I knew all the things I was going to do exactly how I was going to do them to do exactly how I was going to do them to do exactly how I was going to do them well and they were going to be like I well and they were going to be like I well and they were going to be like I was going to go to the Air Force was going to go to the Air Force was going to go to the Air Force Academy, I was going to become a test Academy, I was going to become a test Academy, I was going to become a test pilot, I was going to become an pilot, I was going to become an pilot, I was going to become an astronaut. Of course, I didn't do any of astronaut. Of course, I didn't do any of astronaut. Of course, I didn't do any of those things. And all of the most those things. And all of the most those things. And all of the most important projects in my life have been important projects in my life have been important projects in my life have been opportunistic pivots. opportunistic pivots. opportunistic pivots. Sometimes from Sometimes from Sometimes from personal tragedies or devastations, personal tragedies or devastations, personal tragedies or devastations, other times other times other times uh from something that just popped up uh from something that just popped up uh from something that just popped up and interested me that I and interested me that I and interested me that I for whatever random reason got some for whatever random reason got some for whatever random reason got some keyhole view into. keyhole view into. keyhole view into. And so, I think goals can be useful, but And so, I think goals can be useful, but And so, I think goals can be useful, but I think if they're preventing you from I think if they're preventing you from I think if they're preventing you from opportunistic pivots, opportunistic pivots, opportunistic pivots, >> [snorts] >> [snorts] >> [snorts] >> that's a really a bad thing. And so, >> that's a really a bad thing. And so, >> that's a really a bad thing. And so, I think having a you know, instead of I think having a you know, instead of I think having a you know, instead of asking who's younger than me and has asking who's younger than me and has asking who's younger than me and has more than me saying more than me saying more than me saying comparing yourself to yourself yesterday comparing yourself to yourself yesterday comparing yourself to yourself yesterday because you're not really sure where because you're not really sure where because you're not really sure where you're going anyway and being open to you're going anyway and being open to you're going anyway and being open to opportunistic pivots is is really really opportunistic pivots is is really really opportunistic pivots is is really really important. And at this point, again, I I important. And at this point, again, I I important. And at this point, again, I I did so much there's so much me search in did so much there's so much me search in did so much there's so much me search in this latest project that now I feel like this latest project that now I feel like this latest project that now I feel like putting these kind of structures and putting these kind of structures and putting these kind of structures and rituals in place and trusting that I'm rituals in place and trusting that I'm rituals in place and trusting that I'm going to kind of thrive and do going to kind of thrive and do going to kind of thrive and do interesting things within them is sort interesting things within them is sort interesting things within them is sort of more important to me than the goal of more important to me than the goal of more important to me than the goal because the the goal often doesn't give because the the goal often doesn't give because the the goal often doesn't give me anything actionable to do. Like I I me anything actionable to do. Like I I me anything actionable to do. Like I I think about this when I was an 800-meter think about this when I was an 800-meter think about this when I was an 800-meter runner where I would have these time runner where I would have these time runner where I would have these time goals goals goals and then I'd cross the finish line and and then I'd cross the finish line and and then I'd cross the finish line and get a glance at the clock and either I'd get a glance at the clock and either I'd get a glance at the clock and either I'd be happy or sad. And usually sad because be happy or sad. And usually sad because be happy or sad. And usually sad because they were usually stretch goals. So, they were usually stretch goals. So, they were usually stretch goals. So, most of the time it just makes you most of the time it just makes you most of the time it just makes you annoying and annoyed. annoying and annoyed. annoying and annoyed. And it did but it didn't give me And it did but it didn't give me And it did but it didn't give me anything to do. Whereas if I had certain anything to do. Whereas if I had certain anything to do. Whereas if I had certain experiments that were like experiments that were like experiments that were like make a move with 300 m to go. Oh, that's make a move with 300 m to go. Oh, that's make a move with 300 m to go. Oh, that's something that I can try in practice and something that I can try in practice and something that I can try in practice and then try in a race. then try in a race. then try in a race. And so a lot of goals I think just And so a lot of goals I think just And so a lot of goals I think just they're like an aspiration, but they're they're like an aspiration, but they're they're like an aspiration, but they're not actually giving you the thing to do not actually giving you the thing to do not actually giving you the thing to do today. Where I think these kind of today. Where I think these kind of today. Where I think these kind of structures and experiments can actually structures and experiments can actually structures and experiments can actually give you something to do today. But I'd give you something to do today. But I'd give you something to do today. But I'd be interested to hear you say more about be interested to hear you say more about be interested to hear you say more about what you think did work for you though. what you think did work for you though. what you think did work for you though. >> Well, I think from a constraints >> Well, I think from a constraints >> Well, I think from a constraints perspective, when you set a goal, you're perspective, when you set a goal, you're perspective, when you set a goal, you're layering your life with constraints. layering your life with constraints. layering your life with constraints. Like because you're working towards this Like because you're working towards this Like because you're working towards this goal, it means you're going to have to goal, it means you're going to have to goal, it means you're going to have to say no to these things so that you can say no to these things so that you can say no to these things so that you can say yes to these things and it, you say yes to these things and it, you say yes to these things and it, you know, provides structure to your life. know, provides structure to your life. know, provides structure to your life. >> And I think that that is fantastic and >> And I think that that is fantastic and >> And I think that that is fantastic and probably more people more people than probably more people more people than probably more people more people than less can benefit from a little bit more less can benefit from a little bit more less can benefit from a little bit more goal setting. Like knowing what to say goal setting. Like knowing what to say goal setting. Like knowing what to say no to. Yeah, so that it drives a no to. Yeah, so that it drives a no to. Yeah, so that it drives a decision tree and and really focuses decision tree and and really focuses decision tree and and really focuses your attention. your attention. your attention. Um Um Um the flip side of that is what you talk the flip side of that is what you talk the flip side of that is what you talk about like this, you know, developing about like this, you know, developing about like this, you know, developing this proclivity to quit things. Like if this proclivity to quit things. Like if this proclivity to quit things. Like if you're so attached to a certain goal, you're so attached to a certain goal, you're so attached to a certain goal, then those blinders that you have on are then those blinders that you have on are then those blinders that you have on are going to prevent you from pivoting or, going to prevent you from pivoting or, going to prevent you from pivoting or, you know, if all the evidence while you know, if all the evidence while you know, if all the evidence while you're working towards this goal is you're working towards this goal is you're working towards this goal is trying to tug you in a certain trying to tug you in a certain trying to tug you in a certain direction, you're going to ignore that direction, you're going to ignore that direction, you're going to ignore that when maybe that is the true direction when maybe that is the true direction when maybe that is the true direction that you should be leading your life. that you should be leading your life. that you should be leading your life. And so you know, you can go off course And so you know, you can go off course And so you know, you can go off course ultimately, you know, if you look at it ultimately, you know, if you look at it ultimately, you know, if you look at it in a long term, you know, from a long in a long term, you know, from a long in a long term, you know, from a long term perspective. So it's a yes and term perspective. So it's a yes and term perspective. So it's a yes and situation. I think you should have goals situation. I think you should have goals situation. I think you should have goals and work towards them, but you need to and work towards them, but you need to and work towards them, but you need to be open to experiences from that kind of be open to experiences from that kind of be open to experiences from that kind of curiosity and experimentation kind of curiosity and experimentation kind of curiosity and experimentation kind of spirit. Like let's just say like, oh, spirit. Like let's just say like, oh, spirit. Like let's just say like, oh, the first book I wrote or this podcast the first book I wrote or this podcast the first book I wrote or this podcast or like being in these in this studio, or like being in these in this studio, or like being in these in this studio, like none of these are a function of like none of these are a function of like none of these are a function of having white boarded them. Like they are having white boarded them. Like they are having white boarded them. Like they are an outgrowth of like investing in my an outgrowth of like investing in my an outgrowth of like investing in my curiosity and being like, oh, this is curiosity and being like, oh, this is curiosity and being like, oh, this is cool. I'm going to do this and like, oh, cool. I'm going to do this and like, oh, cool. I'm going to do this and like, oh, that looks interesting. I'm going to that looks interesting. I'm going to that looks interesting. I'm going to move over here. And that doesn't mean move over here. And that doesn't mean move over here. And that doesn't mean that I'm like a ping-ponging around. that I'm like a ping-ponging around. that I'm like a ping-ponging around. Like I'm doing it from a place of Like I'm doing it from a place of Like I'm doing it from a place of intentionality and, you know, kind of intentionality and, you know, kind of intentionality and, you know, kind of trusting trusting trusting my gut and there are guardrails and my gut and there are guardrails and my gut and there are guardrails and structures around like how I make those structures around like how I make those structures around like how I make those decisions, but it's not because I set a decisions, but it's not because I set a decisions, but it's not because I set a goal. Yeah. Yeah. goal. Yeah. Yeah. goal. Yeah. Yeah. >> And so, I'm trying to make sense of like >> And so, I'm trying to make sense of like >> And so, I'm trying to make sense of like how these two things live together. how these two things live together. how these two things live together. That's like I mean, it sounds like That's like I mean, it sounds like That's like I mean, it sounds like you're describing this kind of freedom you're describing this kind of freedom you're describing this kind of freedom within some decision-making framework, within some decision-making framework, within some decision-making framework, right? And I was just in Angela right? And I was just in Angela right? And I was just in Angela Duckworth's class, actually. So, we were Duckworth's class, actually. So, we were Duckworth's class, actually. So, we were talking about her earlier. And she talking about her earlier. And she talking about her earlier. And she invited me to class just for one of her invited me to class just for one of her invited me to class just for one of her sessions and sessions and sessions and in the class she was talking about what in the class she was talking about what in the class she was talking about what she now calls the Paramecium principle. she now calls the Paramecium principle. she now calls the Paramecium principle. Have you heard of this already? Okay, so Have you heard of this already? Okay, so Have you heard of this already? Okay, so obviously she's most famous for grit, obviously she's most famous for grit, obviously she's most famous for grit, passion and perseverance. passion and perseverance. passion and perseverance. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. And what she was telling her students And what she was telling her students And what she was telling her students was was was I she was basically saying, "If I could I she was basically saying, "If I could I she was basically saying, "If I could redo grit a little bit, I think I'd put redo grit a little bit, I think I'd put redo grit a little bit, I think I'd put a little bit more a little bit more a little bit more on the passion side emphasis because I on the passion side emphasis because I on the passion side emphasis because I think we've actually often taught young think we've actually often taught young think we've actually often taught young people to persevere, but then they people to persevere, but then they people to persevere, but then they persevere at something and put their persevere at something and put their persevere at something and put their head up 10 years later and they're like, head up 10 years later and they're like, head up 10 years later and they're like, 'I actually don't like this thing.'" 'I actually don't like this thing.'" 'I actually don't like this thing.'" Mhm. And so, the Paramecium principle, Mhm. And so, the Paramecium principle, Mhm. And so, the Paramecium principle, this Paramecium single-celled organism, this Paramecium single-celled organism, this Paramecium single-celled organism, and all it really has is detectors that and all it really has is detectors that and all it really has is detectors that detect food nourishment or warmth. And detect food nourishment or warmth. And detect food nourishment or warmth. And it'll detect a little and it will move it'll detect a little and it will move it'll detect a little and it will move in that direction. If it detects more, in that direction. If it detects more, in that direction. If it detects more, it goes in that direction again. If it it goes in that direction again. If it it goes in that direction again. If it doesn't, it tries a different direction. doesn't, it tries a different direction. doesn't, it tries a different direction. And so, it's making this constant series And so, it's making this constant series And so, it's making this constant series of pivots and what she was explaining to of pivots and what she was explaining to of pivots and what she was explaining to her students was her students was her students was that's engagement or interest is the that's engagement or interest is the that's engagement or interest is the thing that you should be pivoting to. thing that you should be pivoting to. thing that you should be pivoting to. And she was saying not not happiness, And she was saying not not happiness, And she was saying not not happiness, that's a different thing, that's a different thing, that's a different thing, but interest or engagement but interest or engagement but interest or engagement and pivot toward it. And to me, this is and pivot toward it. And to me, this is and pivot toward it. And to me, this is like a total reconception of her of her like a total reconception of her of her like a total reconception of her of her work work work um um um in a way that I think is really in a way that I think is really in a way that I think is really interesting and productive where interesting and productive where interesting and productive where don't feel like you're a failure because don't feel like you're a failure because don't feel like you're a failure because you didn't persist in this goal that you didn't persist in this goal that you didn't persist in this goal that might not be the right goal for you might not be the right goal for you might not be the right goal for you because because because how could you have how could you know if how could you have how could you know if how could you have how could you know if it's the right like it's the right like it's the right like one of my favorite one of my favorite one of my favorite phrases from Range was we learn who we phrases from Range was we learn who we phrases from Range was we learn who we are in practice, not in theory. That you are in practice, not in theory. That you are in practice, not in theory. That you can't conceptualize what's right for you can't conceptualize what's right for you can't conceptualize what's right for you in the future because you change and the in the future because you change and the in the future because you change and the world changes. You actually have to do world changes. You actually have to do world changes. You actually have to do stuff and then reflect on it to stuff and then reflect on it to stuff and then reflect on it to understand you have to act and then understand you have to act and then understand you have to act and then think. think. think. Not not the reverse. Not not the reverse. Not not the reverse. And so I was pretty psyched to see her And so I was pretty psyched to see her And so I was pretty psyched to see her promoting this Paramecium principle promoting this Paramecium principle promoting this Paramecium principle where it's like, "Yeah, you want to where it's like, "Yeah, you want to where it's like, "Yeah, you want to persevere when something matters, but persevere when something matters, but persevere when something matters, but you want to be constantly like you want to be constantly like you want to be constantly like titrating, you know, your your path so titrating, you know, your your path so titrating, you know, your your path so that you're you're reacting your level that you're you're reacting your level that you're you're reacting your level of interest." So again, of interest." So again, of interest." So again, everything that's been important to me everything that's been important to me everything that's been important to me in my life has been an opportunistic in my life has been an opportunistic in my life has been an opportunistic pivot. And and that requires kind of pivot. And and that requires kind of pivot. And and that requires kind of letting go of the the direction I letting go of the the direction I letting go of the the direction I thought I was going in. thought I was going in. thought I was going in. >> Mhm. >> Mhm. >> Mhm. >> So when you think of yourself as this >> So when you think of yourself as this >> So when you think of yourself as this successful author, was that a goal that successful author, was that a goal that successful author, was that a goal that you set for yourself or was that more, you set for yourself or was that more, you set for yourself or was that more, uh, you know, kind of a maturation of uh, you know, kind of a maturation of uh, you know, kind of a maturation of your curiosities and your obsessions? your curiosities and your obsessions? your curiosities and your obsessions? No, I mean, I did like disclaimer is a No, I mean, I did like disclaimer is a No, I mean, I did like disclaimer is a little bit of a sad origin to the story, little bit of a sad origin to the story, little bit of a sad origin to the story, but more than a little bit, but, um, but more than a little bit, but, um, but more than a little bit, but, um, when I became a writer, so I was in when I became a writer, so I was in when I became a writer, so I was in grad school. I was training to be a grad school. I was training to be a grad school. I was training to be a scientist. Um, I lived in the Arctic scientist. Um, I lived in the Arctic scientist. Um, I lived in the Arctic studying the carbon cycle and stuff. studying the carbon cycle and stuff. studying the carbon cycle and stuff. And I had a training partner when I was And I had a training partner when I was And I had a training partner when I was a runner who dropped dead at the end of a runner who dropped dead at the end of a runner who dropped dead at the end of a race, few steps after a mile race. a race, few steps after a mile race. a race, few steps after a mile race. First guy in his family of Jamaican First guy in his family of Jamaican First guy in his family of Jamaican immigrants, you know, who was who was immigrants, you know, who was who was immigrants, you know, who was who was making it and making it and making it and uh, uh, uh, he was like one of the top ranked guys he was like one of the top ranked guys he was like one of the top ranked guys in the country in his age group. in the country in his age group. in the country in his age group. And I was devastated. I mean, I remember And I was devastated. I mean, I remember And I was devastated. I mean, I remember I still remember the day like our coach I still remember the day like our coach I still remember the day like our coach I wasn't there when it happened, called I wasn't there when it happened, called I wasn't there when it happened, called and said, and said, and said, "Oh, Kevin died at the track today." You "Oh, Kevin died at the track today." You "Oh, Kevin died at the track today." You know, you say died when somebody ties up know, you say died when somebody ties up know, you say died when somebody ties up at the end of a race. I'm like, "Well, at the end of a race. I'm like, "Well, at the end of a race. I'm like, "Well, you know, it happens to the best of us." you know, it happens to the best of us." you know, it happens to the best of us." He said, "No, no, he died, like he He said, "No, no, he died, like he He said, "No, no, he died, like he died." died." died." And And And that's what launched me into writing that's what launched me into writing that's what launched me into writing because our newspaper said, you know, he because our newspaper said, you know, he because our newspaper said, you know, he had a heart attack. I don't even What had a heart attack. I don't even What had a heart attack. I don't even What does that even mean for a guy at this does that even mean for a guy at this does that even mean for a guy at this age, this level of health? I ended up age, this level of health? I ended up age, this level of health? I ended up getting his family to sign, uh, getting his family to sign, uh, getting his family to sign, uh, waiver allowing me to gather up his waiver allowing me to gather up his waiver allowing me to gather up his medical records and investigate. medical records and investigate. medical records and investigate. Turned out he had this misdiagnosed, uh, Turned out he had this misdiagnosed, uh, Turned out he had this misdiagnosed, uh, textbook case of hypertrophic textbook case of hypertrophic textbook case of hypertrophic cardiomyopathy, an enlargement of a cardiomyopathy, an enlargement of a cardiomyopathy, an enlargement of a certain part of the heart that's usually certain part of the heart that's usually certain part of the heart that's usually the cause of a young athlete dropping the cause of a young athlete dropping the cause of a young athlete dropping dead with no prior symptoms. dead with no prior symptoms. dead with no prior symptoms. That's what got me interested in That's what got me interested in That's what got me interested in genetics, eventually led to my my first genetics, eventually led to my my first genetics, eventually led to my my first book The Sports Gene. book The Sports Gene. book The Sports Gene. And and that's when I said, I want to And and that's when I said, I want to And and that's when I said, I want to write about this cuz I think we can save write about this cuz I think we can save write about this cuz I think we can save some people for a public audience, not some people for a public audience, not some people for a public audience, not people like me who are buying a science people like me who are buying a science people like me who are buying a science magazine with their disposable income, magazine with their disposable income, magazine with their disposable income, but people who read say Sports but people who read say Sports but people who read say Sports Illustrated. And that's when I decided Illustrated. And that's when I decided Illustrated. And that's when I decided to to to go in that path and try to become the go in that path and try to become the go in that path and try to become the science writer at Sports Illustrated. science writer at Sports Illustrated. science writer at Sports Illustrated. So, it was very much a pivot from So, it was very much a pivot from So, it was very much a pivot from something something something that that that felt meaningful to me at that moment and felt meaningful to me at that moment and felt meaningful to me at that moment and totally changed my trajectory from from totally changed my trajectory from from totally changed my trajectory from from going into the sciences to becoming a going into the sciences to becoming a going into the sciences to becoming a writer. But it does illustrate this idea writer. But it does illustrate this idea writer. But it does illustrate this idea of of you know, this this career emerged of of you know, this this career emerged of of you know, this this career emerged from you investing in your curiosity and from you investing in your curiosity and from you investing in your curiosity and what was lighting you up. Yeah, for what was lighting you up. Yeah, for what was lighting you up. Yeah, for sure. I mean, I will say one other thing sure. I mean, I will say one other thing sure. I mean, I will say one other thing that I learned when I was that I learned when I was that I learned when I was in grad school for sciences was in grad school for sciences was in grad school for sciences was I started you know, my work started I started you know, my work started I started you know, my work started getting so narrow getting so narrow getting so narrow and I started asking myself, am I the and I started asking myself, am I the and I started asking myself, am I the type of person who wants to spend my type of person who wants to spend my type of person who wants to spend my whole life learning one or two things whole life learning one or two things whole life learning one or two things new to the world new to the world new to the world or much shorter spans of time learning or much shorter spans of time learning or much shorter spans of time learning things new to me and synthesizing them things new to me and synthesizing them things new to me and synthesizing them and translating them and I was and translating them and I was and translating them and I was learning that I was the latter type of learning that I was the latter type of learning that I was the latter type of personality. And and I just couldn't personality. And and I just couldn't personality. And and I just couldn't have known that before I tried it. have known that before I tried it. have known that before I tried it. What is it that hamstrings you the most What is it that hamstrings you the most What is it that hamstrings you the most from the subject matter in in the new from the subject matter in in the new from the subject matter in in the new book? Like what is it that trips you up book? Like what is it that trips you up book? Like what is it that trips you up or you still struggle with? You mean in or you still struggle with? You mean in or you still struggle with? You mean in terms of the implications of things that terms of the implications of things that terms of the implications of things that I would implement say or I would implement say or I would implement say or >> refusal or recalcitrance around like >> refusal or recalcitrance around like >> refusal or recalcitrance around like putting up constraints when you know, putting up constraints when you know, putting up constraints when you know, after writing this book you know, you after writing this book you know, you after writing this book you know, you should. should. should. >> struggle with satisficing because I >> struggle with satisficing because I >> struggle with satisficing because I think my think my think my um um um even I I know how much of the even I I know how much of the even I I know how much of the optimization stuff online is nonsense optimization stuff online is nonsense optimization stuff online is nonsense and and praying on our and and praying on our and and praying on our intentions, but I still have that reflex intentions, but I still have that reflex intentions, but I still have that reflex to want to maximize a lot of my to want to maximize a lot of my to want to maximize a lot of my decisions and look for the best. So, decisions and look for the best. So, decisions and look for the best. So, that's a struggle for sure. that's a struggle for sure. that's a struggle for sure. The amount of autonomy that I have the The amount of autonomy that I have the The amount of autonomy that I have the luxury to have in my schedule, giving luxury to have in my schedule, giving luxury to have in my schedule, giving some of that up has been a struggle, but some of that up has been a struggle, but some of that up has been a struggle, but I've done I mean, when I realized that I've done I mean, when I realized that I've done I mean, when I realized that it was bad for my well-being that I had it was bad for my well-being that I had it was bad for my well-being that I had optimized for something that is bad for optimized for something that is bad for optimized for something that is bad for me, me, me, I joined the board of a non-profit in my I joined the board of a non-profit in my I joined the board of a non-profit in my community. I you know, joined a community. I you know, joined a community. I you know, joined a like dinner and discussion club. like dinner and discussion club. like dinner and discussion club. You know, I started doing all these You know, I started doing all these You know, I started doing all these things to have a grounding in the real things to have a grounding in the real things to have a grounding in the real world again and sometimes that's an world again and sometimes that's an world again and sometimes that's an annoyance from a scheduling standpoint. annoyance from a scheduling standpoint. annoyance from a scheduling standpoint. Um and so I still Um and so I still Um and so I still struggle with that sometimes but it's struggle with that sometimes but it's struggle with that sometimes but it's but it has undoubtedly been better for but it has undoubtedly been better for but it has undoubtedly been better for my well-being. my well-being. my well-being. And there's some advice that important And there's some advice that important And there's some advice that important figure in the book Tony Fadell gave me figure in the book Tony Fadell gave me figure in the book Tony Fadell gave me that Tony Fadell was the that Tony Fadell was the that Tony Fadell was the he he led the team that created the iPod he he led the team that created the iPod he he led the team that created the iPod and he co-founded he co-founded Nest the and he co-founded he co-founded Nest the and he co-founded he co-founded Nest the smart thermostat company. smart thermostat company. smart thermostat company. He now mentors entrepreneurs and he says He now mentors entrepreneurs and he says He now mentors entrepreneurs and he says the most important advice he gives them the most important advice he gives them the most important advice he gives them is write the press release first. is write the press release first. is write the press release first. Cuz he says that will give your bounding Cuz he says that will give your bounding Cuz he says that will give your bounding box like on one page assume this thing box like on one page assume this thing box like on one page assume this thing is done is done is done and write the press release as it would and write the press release as it would and write the press release as it would look cuz that will show you what the look cuz that will show you what the look cuz that will show you what the priorities are and if it's not there and priorities are and if it's not there and priorities are and if it's not there and you know, maybe it's not as much of a you know, maybe it's not as much of a you know, maybe it's not as much of a priority. priority. priority. And he was like you got to do this for And he was like you got to do this for And he was like you got to do this for your for your book. Um your for your book. Um your for your book. Um and any project you do and I struggle and any project you do and I struggle and any project you do and I struggle with that because with that because with that because early on I kind of say, well, I can't do early on I kind of say, well, I can't do early on I kind of say, well, I can't do that. I need to be more exploratory but that. I need to be more exploratory but that. I need to be more exploratory but but I think it actually is a good but I think it actually is a good but I think it actually is a good exercise cuz it's not that you can't exercise cuz it's not that you can't exercise cuz it's not that you can't change it but it at least gives you some change it but it at least gives you some change it but it at least gives you some direction to start moving in. direction to start moving in. direction to start moving in. Um Um Um and and and there is good work showing and and and there is good work showing and and and there is good work showing that I write about that specific that I write about that specific that I write about that specific curiosity boosts creativity like if you curiosity boosts creativity like if you curiosity boosts creativity like if you can find a sort of a narrow lens to to can find a sort of a narrow lens to to can find a sort of a narrow lens to to dive in at first that will actually help dive in at first that will actually help dive in at first that will actually help your curiosity flourish and I've been so your curiosity flourish and I've been so your curiosity flourish and I've been so used to in the past being so used to in the past being so used to in the past being so wide-ranging that um wide-ranging that um wide-ranging that um it's good advice but it's been hard for it's good advice but it's been hard for it's good advice but it's been hard for me to take. me to take. me to take. Another example of that or a similar Another example of that or a similar Another example of that or a similar parallel is screen writing which parallel is screen writing which parallel is screen writing which other [snorts] than poetry is the most other [snorts] than poetry is the most other [snorts] than poetry is the most constrained form of writing. It has all constrained form of writing. It has all constrained form of writing. It has all these rules and you know, you can't say these rules and you know, you can't say these rules and you know, you can't say too much and it's very restrictive but too much and it's very restrictive but too much and it's very restrictive but fundamental to it is this art and fundamental to it is this art and fundamental to it is this art and science of crafting the log line like science of crafting the log line like science of crafting the log line like almost you know, in advance of even almost you know, in advance of even almost you know, in advance of even writing the script Mhm. really distills writing the script Mhm. really distills writing the script Mhm. really distills everything down to, you know, literally everything down to, you know, literally everything down to, you know, literally one sentence and everything stems from one sentence and everything stems from one sentence and everything stems from that. So, that constraint drives the that. So, that constraint drives the that. So, that constraint drives the creative process of like telling this creative process of like telling this creative process of like telling this story. story. story. >> Yeah. That reminds me when you say that >> Yeah. That reminds me when you say that >> Yeah. That reminds me when you say that of of of uh uh uh Hayao Miyazaki's work who did Spirited Hayao Miyazaki's work who did Spirited Hayao Miyazaki's work who did Spirited Away and Princess Mononoke and all those Away and Princess Mononoke and all those Away and Princess Mononoke and all those great movies great movies great movies where he the first thing he would do where he the first thing he would do where he the first thing he would do would be would be would be to like he'd he'd he'd he'd go away and to like he'd he'd he'd he'd go away and to like he'd he'd he'd he'd go away and he'd he'd draw one picture like one he'd he'd draw one picture like one he'd he'd draw one picture like one image and then he would show it to the image and then he would show it to the image and then he would show it to the whole team and say whole team and say whole team and say this is like the tenor Mhm. of what this this is like the tenor Mhm. of what this this is like the tenor Mhm. of what this movie's going to be. Everyone has to movie's going to be. Everyone has to movie's going to be. Everyone has to work to like the the tenor of this image work to like the the tenor of this image work to like the the tenor of this image which is like that logline. It's like which is like that logline. It's like which is like that logline. It's like here's the here's the here's the the the core thing. Or in advertising the the core thing. Or in advertising the the core thing. Or in advertising industry they have a famous saying, industry they have a famous saying, industry they have a famous saying, "Give me the freedom of a tight brief." "Give me the freedom of a tight brief." "Give me the freedom of a tight brief." It's like give me really specifically It's like give me really specifically It's like give me really specifically what we're doing here and then that kind what we're doing here and then that kind what we're doing here and then that kind of liberates you to create uh inside of of liberates you to create uh inside of of liberates you to create uh inside of it. Where I think the the it. Where I think the the it. Where I think the the the blank page is often kind of people's the blank page is often kind of people's the blank page is often kind of people's Mhm. people's [clears throat] enemy. I Mhm. people's [clears throat] enemy. I Mhm. people's [clears throat] enemy. I mean, what Isabel Allende told me is she mean, what Isabel Allende told me is she mean, what Isabel Allende told me is she often she'll start with historical often she'll start with historical often she'll start with historical research and that gives her like the research and that gives her like the research and that gives her like the stage for her theater basically. Because stage for her theater basically. Because stage for her theater basically. Because if it's just too open, um it's it's if it's just too open, um it's it's if it's just too open, um it's it's difficult to start. difficult to start. difficult to start. >> Mhm. [clears throat] >> Mhm. [clears throat] >> Mhm. [clears throat] Or Ryan Holiday's note card Or Ryan Holiday's note card Or Ryan Holiday's note card you know, routine where he's just he's you know, routine where he's just he's you know, routine where he's just he's never not working on a book cuz he's never not working on a book cuz he's never not working on a book cuz he's always reading and he's making these always reading and he's making these always reading and he's making these note cards and so there there's always a note cards and so there there's always a note cards and so there there's always a process. process. process. >> You know, I I was in the bookstore and I >> You know, I I was in the bookstore and I >> You know, I I was in the bookstore and I accidentally elbowed over a stack of one accidentally elbowed over a stack of one accidentally elbowed over a stack of one of the note cards. I was [laughter] like of the note cards. I was [laughter] like of the note cards. I was [laughter] like absolutely horrifying but luckily they absolutely horrifying but luckily they absolutely horrifying but luckily they luckily they slid and like fanned out so luckily they slid and like fanned out so luckily they slid and like fanned out so they were still in order and he's like they were still in order and he's like they were still in order and he's like Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. >> he he was very stoic about it as you >> he he was very stoic about it as you >> he he was very stoic about it as you might imagine but like kindly put them might imagine but like kindly put them might imagine but like kindly put them in palm like I'm taking a wide berth in palm like I'm taking a wide berth in palm like I'm taking a wide berth around that table from now on. around that table from now on. around that table from now on. >> We read these narratives of people who >> We read these narratives of people who >> We read these narratives of people who have transformed their lives and it have transformed their lives and it have transformed their lives and it seems so dramatic and it it it's always seems so dramatic and it it it's always seems so dramatic and it it it's always portrayed as one fell swoop when the portrayed as one fell swoop when the portrayed as one fell swoop when the reality is it's, you know, a million reality is it's, you know, a million reality is it's, you know, a million micro behaviors and tiny decisions over micro behaviors and tiny decisions over micro behaviors and tiny decisions over a very extended period of time that a very extended period of time that a very extended period of time that really is the engine of transformation really is the engine of transformation really is the engine of transformation every single time. And so so the every single time. And so so the every single time. And so so the question that I have for you is question that I have for you is question that I have for you is does the hare ever beat the tortoise? does the hare ever beat the tortoise? does the hare ever beat the tortoise? >> [sighs] >> [sighs] >> [sighs] >> Does the hare ever beat the tortoise? >> Does the hare ever beat the tortoise? >> Does the hare ever beat the tortoise? Cuz I'm a tortoise guy. I'm always Cuz I'm a tortoise guy. I'm always Cuz I'm a tortoise guy. I'm always playing the long game and I'm a late playing the long game and I'm a late playing the long game and I'm a late bloomer and you know, everything that bloomer and you know, everything that bloomer and you know, everything that I've been able to actualize in my life I've been able to actualize in my life I've been able to actualize in my life essentially was a decade in gestation. essentially was a decade in gestation. essentially was a decade in gestation. >> Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I think there are >> Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I think there are >> Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I think there are there are a million ways to get anything there are a million ways to get anything there are a million ways to get anything done. done. done. So, I don't want to say the hare doesn't So, I don't want to say the hare doesn't So, I don't want to say the hare doesn't ever beat the tortoise. Like but I kind ever beat the tortoise. Like but I kind ever beat the tortoise. Like but I kind of think one of the themes underlying of think one of the themes underlying of think one of the themes underlying a whole bunch of my work is that a whole bunch of my work is that a whole bunch of my work is that optimizing for the short-term will often optimizing for the short-term will often optimizing for the short-term will often undermine longer-term development. And undermine longer-term development. And undermine longer-term development. And so that head starts are overrated. so that head starts are overrated. so that head starts are overrated. And that if you want to do something And that if you want to do something And that if you want to do something sustainable in the long-term, like it's sustainable in the long-term, like it's sustainable in the long-term, like it's going to be slow and it's going to be going to be slow and it's going to be going to be slow and it's going to be many small changes, you know, layering many small changes, you know, layering many small changes, you know, layering of constraints and structures and things of constraints and structures and things of constraints and structures and things like that. like that. like that. But I think there are there are But I think there are there are But I think there are there are exceptions. Like if I think about exceptions. Like if I think about exceptions. Like if I think about you know, there was this you know, there was this you know, there was this research about entrepreneurs a few years research about entrepreneurs a few years research about entrepreneurs a few years back looking at back looking at back looking at the average age of founders of the average age of founders of the average age of founders of fast-growing startups. You want to guess fast-growing startups. You want to guess fast-growing startups. You want to guess what the average age of I think it was what the average age of I think it was what the average age of I think it was top 1 in 10,000 rate of growth. Average top 1 in 10,000 rate of growth. Average top 1 in 10,000 rate of growth. Average age of a founder on the day of founding. age of a founder on the day of founding. age of a founder on the day of founding. You want to guess? You want to guess? You want to guess? 42. 45. Good guess. Cuz I think we 42. 45. Good guess. Cuz I think we 42. 45. Good guess. Cuz I think we usually associate it with people who are usually associate it with people who are usually associate it with people who are younger, right? 32. Yeah, 35. Or the younger, right? 32. Yeah, 35. Or the younger, right? 32. Yeah, 35. Or the Mark Zuckerberg or famous drops out Mark Zuckerberg or famous drops out Mark Zuckerberg or famous drops out famously drops out of college and he he famously drops out of college and he he famously drops out of college and he he said young people are just smarter. He said young people are just smarter. He said young people are just smarter. He said that when he was 22, right? Don't said that when he was 22, right? Don't said that when he was 22, right? Don't hear him saying that anymore, hear him saying that anymore, hear him saying that anymore, surprisingly. surprisingly. surprisingly. But, you know, some of those young But, you know, some of those young But, you know, some of those young entrepreneurs absolutely succeed by entrepreneurs absolutely succeed by entrepreneurs absolutely succeed by going fast and being early, but it's the going fast and being early, but it's the going fast and being early, but it's the exception. exception. exception. It's not the norm. It's not the norm. It's not the norm. >> Mhm. >> Mhm. >> Mhm. And so I think the norm is this much And so I think the norm is this much And so I think the norm is this much slower gestation that requires pivots slower gestation that requires pivots slower gestation that requires pivots and requires learning things that you and requires learning things that you and requires learning things that you just couldn't have known without just couldn't have known without just couldn't have known without experience. experience. experience. Um and it's more sustainable too. Um and it's more sustainable too. Um and it's more sustainable too. You said optimizing for the What did you You said optimizing for the What did you You said optimizing for the What did you say again? What was the quote? say again? What was the quote? say again? What was the quote? Optimizing for the short-term Optimizing for the short-term Optimizing for the short-term >> short will often undermine long-term >> short will often undermine long-term >> short will often undermine long-term development. Yeah. development. Yeah. development. Yeah. When you say that, When you say that, When you say that, the first person that comes to mind the first person that comes to mind the first person that comes to mind is Bryan Johnson. Are you familiar with is Bryan Johnson. Are you familiar with is Bryan Johnson. Are you familiar with Bryan Johnson and his quest to live Bryan Johnson and his quest to live Bryan Johnson and his quest to live forever? forever? forever? >> Isn't he trying to Yeah, I was going to >> Isn't he trying to Yeah, I was going to >> Isn't he trying to Yeah, I was going to say, isn't he trying to optimize for say, isn't he trying to optimize for say, isn't he trying to optimize for eternity? eternity? eternity? But he's optimizing in the short-term as But he's optimizing in the short-term as But he's optimizing in the short-term as a means to optimize for the ultimate a means to optimize for the ultimate a means to optimize for the ultimate long-term, right? Like it's a conundrum long-term, right? Like it's a conundrum long-term, right? Like it's a conundrum on some level. And he's a very curious on some level. And he's a very curious on some level. And he's a very curious figure. Like on the one hand, like talk figure. Like on the one hand, like talk figure. Like on the one hand, like talk about his experimentation. Like he's about his experimentation. Like he's about his experimentation. Like he's just experimenting all the time and he's just experimenting all the time and he's just experimenting all the time and he's sharing transparently what he's doing, sharing transparently what he's doing, sharing transparently what he's doing, what's working, what's what what what's what's working, what's what what what's what's working, what's what what what's not working. not working. not working. And is he not the ultimate And is he not the ultimate And is he not the ultimate uh human guinea pig for uh human guinea pig for uh human guinea pig for self-imposed constraints? Because he has self-imposed constraints? Because he has self-imposed constraints? Because he has constrained his lifestyle to such a constrained his lifestyle to such a constrained his lifestyle to such a degree, degree, degree, and yet he seems happier than he was and yet he seems happier than he was and yet he seems happier than he was before. before. before. And I'm just curious if you've followed And I'm just curious if you've followed And I'm just curious if you've followed this trajectory at all or if you have this trajectory at all or if you have this trajectory at all or if you have any kind of insights on this or what we any kind of insights on this or what we any kind of insights on this or what we can what we can kind of take away from can what we can kind of take away from can what we can kind of take away from what he's doing. I see him only what he's doing. I see him only what he's doing. I see him only sparingly, so I don't know the details sparingly, so I don't know the details sparingly, so I don't know the details of his behaviors, but I see like when it of his behaviors, but I see like when it of his behaviors, but I see like when it pops up sometimes if something he does pops up sometimes if something he does pops up sometimes if something he does goes viral. And sometimes I think goes viral. And sometimes I think goes viral. And sometimes I think there's, you know, some nonsense in some there's, you know, some nonsense in some there's, you know, some nonsense in some of the things that he's talking about. of the things that he's talking about. of the things that he's talking about. Other times where he's doing clearly Other times where he's doing clearly Other times where he's doing clearly healthy things. He's [laughter] healthy things. He's [laughter] healthy things. He's [laughter] exercising. And And I also think to your exercising. And And I also think to your exercising. And And I also think to your to your point about putting all these to your point about putting all these to your point about putting all these constraints on himself, I think he's constraints on himself, I think he's constraints on himself, I think he's clearly doing something that has given clearly doing something that has given clearly doing something that has given his life meaning. his life meaning. his life meaning. Right? He's found this project and this Right? He's found this project and this Right? He's found this project and this structure that he's sort of all in on, structure that he's sort of all in on, structure that he's sort of all in on, like his own little sports team kind of. like his own little sports team kind of. like his own little sports team kind of. So good for him. I think when he's So good for him. I think when he's So good for him. I think when he's sharing sharing sharing some of these things about his some of these things about his some of these things about his biological age and some of that stuff is biological age and some of that stuff is biological age and some of that stuff is pretty suspect. You know, it used to be pretty suspect. You know, it used to be pretty suspect. You know, it used to be based on telomeres, these like based on telomeres, these like based on telomeres, these like >> a rigorous scientist. >> a rigorous scientist. >> a rigorous scientist. >> Yeah, yeah. So there's some measures of >> Yeah, yeah. So there's some measures of >> Yeah, yeah. So there's some measures of those that I think are those that I think are those that I think are You know, I always when you see somebody You know, I always when you see somebody You know, I always when you see somebody giving their biological age to like two giving their biological age to like two giving their biological age to like two decimal points, you're like decimal points, you're like decimal points, you're like no. Like this is just fake accuracy no. Like this is just fake accuracy no. Like this is just fake accuracy about some of this kind of stuff. So, about some of this kind of stuff. So, about some of this kind of stuff. So, without knowing all the details of the without knowing all the details of the without knowing all the details of the stuff he's doing, I think he's doing stuff he's doing, I think he's doing stuff he's doing, I think he's doing something providing structures to give something providing structures to give something providing structures to give his life meaning. He's obviously doing his life meaning. He's obviously doing his life meaning. He's obviously doing some things that are very healthy, some things that are very healthy, some things that are very healthy, eating healthier, exercising. All right, eating healthier, exercising. All right, eating healthier, exercising. All right, we talked about we talked about we talked about But it's probably he's getting attention But it's probably he's getting attention But it's probably he's getting attention for these marginal gains attempts for these marginal gains attempts for these marginal gains attempts where most of the gain is probably where most of the gain is probably where most of the gain is probably coming from these very foundational coming from these very foundational coming from these very foundational things that that he's doing. things that that he's doing. things that that he's doing. >> Sleep, nutrition, things like that. I >> Sleep, nutrition, things like that. I >> Sleep, nutrition, things like that. I mean, I I don't think that he's he's mean, I I don't think that he's he's mean, I I don't think that he's he's giving those short shrift. Yeah. But giving those short shrift. Yeah. But giving those short shrift. Yeah. But yeah, there's a lot of bells and yeah, there's a lot of bells and yeah, there's a lot of bells and whistles and fancy stuff, and he's a whistles and fancy stuff, and he's a whistles and fancy stuff, and he's a brilliant marketer, and he clearly brilliant marketer, and he clearly brilliant marketer, and he clearly understands how to operate on the understands how to operate on the understands how to operate on the internet to garner attention. Um and I internet to garner attention. Um and I internet to garner attention. Um and I promise you he is going to die short of promise you he is going to die short of promise you he is going to die short of some kind of AI breakthrough that's some kind of AI breakthrough that's some kind of AI breakthrough that's going to, you know, like that we upload going to, you know, like that we upload going to, you know, like that we upload his consciousness or something. Um but I his consciousness or something. Um but I his consciousness or something. Um but I don't think any amount of supplements or don't think any amount of supplements or don't think any amount of supplements or or, you know, putting a helmet on your or, you know, putting a helmet on your or, you know, putting a helmet on your head or whatever is going to make him head or whatever is going to make him head or whatever is going to make him live forever. Um live forever. Um live forever. Um but there's a cheekiness to it, you but there's a cheekiness to it, you but there's a cheekiness to it, you know, that makes it kind of fun to know, that makes it kind of fun to know, that makes it kind of fun to follow what he's doing, and and he's follow what he's doing, and and he's follow what he's doing, and and he's just, you know, he's he's a provocateur. just, you know, he's he's a provocateur. just, you know, he's he's a provocateur. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And I think personal experimentation's And I think personal experimentation's And I think personal experimentation's interesting. I think where it gets interesting. I think where it gets interesting. I think where it gets troublesome is like troublesome is like troublesome is like passing off some of these marginal gain passing off some of these marginal gain passing off some of these marginal gain things, first of all, as if they're the things, first of all, as if they're the things, first of all, as if they're the whole secret, or passing off things that whole secret, or passing off things that whole secret, or passing off things that are not gains at all, right? Which is are not gains at all, right? Which is are not gains at all, right? Which is classic in a lot of the supplement classic in a lot of the supplement classic in a lot of the supplement industry, basically, where something it industry, basically, where something it industry, basically, where something it it doesn't work, basically, and you're it doesn't work, basically, and you're it doesn't work, basically, and you're passing it off as a miracle cure, or it passing it off as a miracle cure, or it passing it off as a miracle cure, or it works a very little, Mhm. works a very little, Mhm. works a very little, Mhm. [clears throat] and you're passing it [clears throat] and you're passing it [clears throat] and you're passing it off as having a huge effect. Again, I off as having a huge effect. Again, I off as having a huge effect. Again, I don't know the extent to which he's don't know the extent to which he's don't know the extent to which he's doing that cuz I'm familiar with him, doing that cuz I'm familiar with him, doing that cuz I'm familiar with him, but I don't know Yeah. but I don't know Yeah. but I don't know Yeah. >> the specifics of his routine. >> the specifics of his routine. >> the specifics of his routine. >> that he is almost subliminally like >> that he is almost subliminally like >> that he is almost subliminally like conveying this message of self-imposed conveying this message of self-imposed conveying this message of self-imposed constraints actually make your life constraints actually make your life constraints actually make your life better and happier, it's consistent with better and happier, it's consistent with better and happier, it's consistent with your message. your message. your message. >> That That That I don't think is is >> That That That I don't think is is >> That That That I don't think is is That I think is true, and I think That I think is true, and I think That I think is true, and I think boundaries and guardrails and rituals boundaries and guardrails and rituals boundaries and guardrails and rituals and things give people a feeling of and things give people a feeling of and things give people a feeling of meaning. Mhm. Um meaning. Mhm. Um meaning. Mhm. Um and happiness and structure and happiness and structure and happiness and structure um um um and of bounds in a world that can feel and of bounds in a world that can feel and of bounds in a world that can feel very overwhelming. very overwhelming. very overwhelming. But again, to the extent that he is But again, to the extent that he is But again, to the extent that he is like like like making people have FOMO about these making people have FOMO about these making people have FOMO about these little optimizations that they should be little optimizations that they should be little optimizations that they should be doing, I don't think that's great. doing, I don't think that's great. doing, I don't think that's great. Again, I I don't I don't I don't know. Again, I I don't I don't I don't know. Again, I I don't I don't I don't know. I'd be careful about speaking to this I'd be careful about speaking to this I'd be careful about speaking to this cuz I don't know exactly what he's cuz I don't know exactly what he's cuz I don't know exactly what he's doing. doing. doing. >> is the neurosis that accompanies like >> is the neurosis that accompanies like >> is the neurosis that accompanies like our inability to live up to some our inability to live up to some our inability to live up to some optimization standard. And there's stuff optimization standard. And there's stuff optimization standard. And there's stuff like this looks maxing stuff now. Have like this looks maxing stuff now. Have like this looks maxing stuff now. Have you heard of this? you heard of this? you heard of this? >> did a whole episode on this. Yeah, so so >> did a whole episode on this. Yeah, so so >> did a whole episode on this. Yeah, so so oh, that's right. Um It's insane. Um oh, that's right. Um It's insane. Um oh, that's right. Um It's insane. Um and you guys were talking about that. I and you guys were talking about that. I and you guys were talking about that. I I can't remember the name of the I can't remember the name of the I can't remember the name of the Adam Skolnick? Uh clavicular? That guy. Adam Skolnick? Uh clavicular? That guy. Adam Skolnick? Uh clavicular? That guy. That's the guy that you guys were That's the guy that you guys were That's the guy that you guys were talking about him. Um talking about him. Um talking about him. Um and uh and uh and uh that's that's that's not helpful for people, I think. Like not helpful for people, I think. Like not helpful for people, I think. Like that again is a space where I think we that again is a space where I think we that again is a space where I think we have to have have to have have to have a good enough feeling. Like maybe this a good enough feeling. Like maybe this a good enough feeling. Like maybe this is a weird thing to relate it to, but is a weird thing to relate it to, but is a weird thing to relate it to, but when I was thinking about writing when I was thinking about writing when I was thinking about writing this my third book, I I was actually I this my third book, I I was actually I this my third book, I I was actually I had so much freedom that I started had so much freedom that I started had so much freedom that I started bouncing around all these ideas. I was bouncing around all these ideas. I was bouncing around all these ideas. I was like, I I find books so consuming that like, I I find books so consuming that like, I I find books so consuming that I'm not going to go until I find the I'm not going to go until I find the I'm not going to go until I find the perfect idea. perfect idea. perfect idea. So, I ended up just bouncing around a So, I ended up just bouncing around a So, I ended up just bouncing around a million ideas and never diving in. And million ideas and never diving in. And million ideas and never diving in. And then I read this passage from Mihaly then I read this passage from Mihaly then I read this passage from Mihaly Csikszentmihalyi, the psychologist who Csikszentmihalyi, the psychologist who Csikszentmihalyi, the psychologist who coined the term flow for the feeling of coined the term flow for the feeling of coined the term flow for the feeling of immersion in an activity. immersion in an activity. immersion in an activity. He was actually talking about He was actually talking about He was actually talking about uh uh uh like marriage, but it doesn't matter. like marriage, but it doesn't matter. like marriage, but it doesn't matter. You could apply what he was saying to You could apply what he was saying to You could apply what he was saying to anything where he said, "The great thing anything where he said, "The great thing anything where he said, "The great thing is, once you're committed by your own is, once you're committed by your own is, once you're committed by your own choice, if you're committed, choice, if you're committed, choice, if you're committed, you can stop you can start living and you can stop you can start living and you can stop you can start living and stop wondering how to live. Like instead stop wondering how to live. Like instead stop wondering how to live. Like instead of spending all this energy on wondering of spending all this energy on wondering of spending all this energy on wondering what else you should be doing, you can what else you should be doing, you can what else you should be doing, you can you can start just living." And I you can start just living." And I you can start just living." And I immediately read that and said, "I'm immediately read that and said, "I'm immediately read that and said, "I'm spending all this time wondering what spending all this time wondering what spending all this time wondering what topic to take on where I should pick topic to take on where I should pick topic to take on where I should pick something that interests me and just something that interests me and just something that interests me and just dive in." And I was like, immediately dive in." And I was like, immediately dive in." And I was like, immediately that day decided I'm writing a proposal that day decided I'm writing a proposal that day decided I'm writing a proposal on constraints, right? on constraints, right? on constraints, right? And and I think that applies more And and I think that applies more And and I think that applies more broadly to life, whereas you want to broadly to life, whereas you want to broadly to life, whereas you want to decide on something that's good enough decide on something that's good enough decide on something that's good enough and dive in on it and give it some of and dive in on it and give it some of and dive in on it and give it some of yourself instead of thinking, "How are yourself instead of thinking, "How are yourself instead of thinking, "How are all the other ways that I could be all the other ways that I could be all the other ways that I could be optimizing this this thing?" optimizing this this thing?" optimizing this this thing?" And so, And so, And so, you know, I bristle a little bit against you know, I bristle a little bit against you know, I bristle a little bit against some of the optimization culture, even some of the optimization culture, even some of the optimization culture, even though I'm very much like a though I'm very much like a though I'm very much like a self-improver, self-improver, self-improver, just because just because just because I think it can give people a feeling of I think it can give people a feeling of I think it can give people a feeling of like never finding some stability. You like never finding some stability. You like never finding some stability. You know, there's always some other things know, there's always some other things know, there's always some other things they could and should be doing that they could and should be doing that they could and should be doing that would make it better if only. would make it better if only. would make it better if only. But like But like But like you're never going to clear the decks you're never going to clear the decks you're never going to clear the decks and have that moment where "Now is the and have that moment where "Now is the and have that moment where "Now is the time when I'm going to start the thing I time when I'm going to start the thing I time when I'm going to start the thing I really want to do." So, you just have to really want to do." So, you just have to really want to do." So, you just have to start it in this imperfect, messy way start it in this imperfect, messy way start it in this imperfect, messy way and not worry about what the internet is and not worry about what the internet is and not worry about what the internet is telling you about optimization. A lot of telling you about optimization. A lot of telling you about optimization. A lot of it is it is it is an ill-fated attempt to an ill-fated attempt to an ill-fated attempt to uh fill some spiritual void on some uh fill some spiritual void on some uh fill some spiritual void on some level that will give your life a sense level that will give your life a sense level that will give your life a sense of like meaning and purpose. But on the of like meaning and purpose. But on the of like meaning and purpose. But on the point of point of point of that you just made, I'm reminded of that you just made, I'm reminded of that you just made, I'm reminded of Ellen Langer, like her whole thing about Ellen Langer, like her whole thing about Ellen Langer, like her whole thing about like stop worrying if you're making the like stop worrying if you're making the like stop worrying if you're making the right decision, just make the decision right decision, just make the decision right decision, just make the decision right. right. right. >> Yeah, make the decision right. That's >> Yeah, make the decision right. That's >> Yeah, make the decision right. That's right. right. right. >> decisive. There's a difference between >> decisive. There's a difference between >> decisive. There's a difference between decisiveness and optimization, I guess. decisiveness and optimization, I guess. decisiveness and optimization, I guess. Um when you're decisive and then you Um when you're decisive and then you Um when you're decisive and then you just you make a decision and then you just you make a decision and then you just you make a decision and then you just take the first the next, you know, just take the first the next, you know, just take the first the next, you know, little action and you start to string little action and you start to string little action and you start to string these actions together, these actions together, these actions together, that's how everything works. Like I too, that's how everything works. Like I too, that's how everything works. Like I too, like I'm writing a book right now. I like I'm writing a book right now. I like I'm writing a book right now. I haven't written a book in a really long haven't written a book in a really long haven't written a book in a really long time and I couldn't figure out what it time and I couldn't figure out what it time and I couldn't figure out what it was that would get me excited enough to was that would get me excited enough to was that would get me excited enough to write about. And then finally, I was write about. And then finally, I was write about. And then finally, I was just sort of cajoled into committing to just sort of cajoled into committing to just sort of cajoled into committing to a certain idea, a certain idea, a certain idea, not knowing if I was capable of actually not knowing if I was capable of actually not knowing if I was capable of actually being able to see it through, but just, being able to see it through, but just, being able to see it through, but just, you know, okay, well, here's one idea you know, okay, well, here's one idea you know, okay, well, here's one idea like today and that's not very good, like today and that's not very good, like today and that's not very good, but, you know, it's it's been 2 years, but, you know, it's it's been 2 years, but, you know, it's it's been 2 years, you know, it's taken me a long time, but you know, it's taken me a long time, but you know, it's taken me a long time, but I'm like, "Oh, I can see it now, you I'm like, "Oh, I can see it now, you I'm like, "Oh, I can see it now, you know, it's starting to come together." know, it's starting to come together." know, it's starting to come together." When I couldn't at the beginning. So, When I couldn't at the beginning. So, When I couldn't at the beginning. So, this notion that you have to have it all this notion that you have to have it all this notion that you have to have it all fully actualized in your mind before you fully actualized in your mind before you fully actualized in your mind before you can start keeps people stuck in the can start keeps people stuck in the can start keeps people stuck in the starting gate and never doing anything. starting gate and never doing anything. starting gate and never doing anything. >> I think that's a good prompt like you >> I think that's a good prompt like you >> I think that's a good prompt like you mentioning, you know, you you couldn't mentioning, you know, you you couldn't mentioning, you know, you you couldn't see how maybe this book was going to be see how maybe this book was going to be see how maybe this book was going to be at the beginning. at the beginning. at the beginning. I I when I do a book project, since I I I when I do a book project, since I I I when I do a book project, since I don't do them that often, I want to take don't do them that often, I want to take don't do them that often, I want to take on a project that at the start I don't on a project that at the start I don't on a project that at the start I don't have the skills required to finish it. have the skills required to finish it. have the skills required to finish it. Cuz I I can't find any other way to like Cuz I I can't find any other way to like Cuz I I can't find any other way to like voluntarily force myself to learn with voluntarily force myself to learn with voluntarily force myself to learn with the the the ferocity that I do when I have a book ferocity that I do when I have a book ferocity that I do when I have a book project. And so, I actually think that's project. And so, I actually think that's project. And so, I actually think that's a really good thing. It's scary, right? a really good thing. It's scary, right? a really good thing. It's scary, right? Because you don't know everything about Because you don't know everything about Because you don't know everything about what you're going to have to find, but I what you're going to have to find, but I what you're going to have to find, but I think that's like a great think that's like a great think that's like a great like force you forcing function for like force you forcing function for like force you forcing function for improvement is starting a project where improvement is starting a project where improvement is starting a project where you don't have everything you need to be you don't have everything you need to be you don't have everything you need to be able to do able to do able to do >> embracing the discomfort of it and >> embracing the discomfort of it and >> embracing the discomfort of it and discomfort is the grist for growth. I I discomfort is the grist for growth. I I discomfort is the grist for growth. I I mean, desirable difficulties. Yeah. mean, desirable difficulties. Yeah. mean, desirable difficulties. Yeah. Final thoughts. Uh what is it Final thoughts. Uh what is it Final thoughts. Uh what is it that you want people to take away from that you want people to take away from that you want people to take away from this notion of constraints make us this notion of constraints make us this notion of constraints make us better? If you had to distill it down better? If you had to distill it down better? If you had to distill it down into kind of a final call to action. I'd into kind of a final call to action. I'd into kind of a final call to action. I'd say um say um say um uh a mindset shift from viewing limits uh a mindset shift from viewing limits uh a mindset shift from viewing limits as oppressing you to viewing them as as oppressing you to viewing them as as oppressing you to viewing them as opportunities to clarify your priorities opportunities to clarify your priorities opportunities to clarify your priorities and launch into productive and launch into productive and launch into productive experimentation instead of bristling experimentation instead of bristling experimentation instead of bristling against them. against them. against them. What can I do with this? What can I do with this? What can I do with this? Amazing. Inside the Box: How Constraints Amazing. Inside the Box: How Constraints Amazing. Inside the Box: How Constraints Make Us Better, available everywhere. Make Us Better, available everywhere. Make Us Better, available everywhere. And [clears throat] thanks for coming on And [clears throat] thanks for coming on And [clears throat] thanks for coming on the show, man. It's great. It it's a the show, man. It's great. It it's a the show, man. It's great. It it's a total pleasure. total pleasure. total pleasure. >> about anything. You should come back all >> about anything. You should come back all >> about anything. You should come back all the time. the time. the time. >> love to come back more often and and I >> love to come back more often and and I >> love to come back more often and and I hope you'll keep posting your morning hope you'll keep posting your morning hope you'll keep posting your morning routines because as I've converted routines because as I've converted routines because as I've converted myself into a morning person, I find myself into a morning person, I find myself into a morning person, I find them very inspiring. Like it's no matter them very inspiring. Like it's no matter them very inspiring. Like it's no matter when I wake up, I see your digital clock when I wake up, I see your digital clock when I wake up, I see your digital clock and and and um so, you know, you've just also been a um so, you know, you've just also been a um so, you know, you've just also been a a personal inspiration for me and the a personal inspiration for me and the a personal inspiration for me and the way you approach things with a very way you approach things with a very way you approach things with a very human kind of human kind of human kind of um um um truth seeking, right? Like I think you truth seeking, right? Like I think you truth seeking, right? Like I think you you I think you could peddle a lot of you I think you could peddle a lot of you I think you could peddle a lot of nonsense if you wanted to nonsense if you wanted to nonsense if you wanted to and you don't. I appreciate that. and you don't. I appreciate that. and you don't. I appreciate that. Thanks, man. [snorts] Thanks, man. [snorts] Thanks, man. [snorts] Pleasure. To be continued. Pleasure. To be continued. Pleasure. To be continued. >> [laughter] >> [laughter] >> [laughter] >> Cheers. Peace.