Why Skipping Joy Leads Straight to Burnout | Sharon Salzberg

Hey, hey, it's the 10% Happier podcast. I'm your host, Dan Harris. We are, as of this episode posting, four days away from the midterm elections here in the United States. And I don't know about you, but I'm a little bit anxious. And so today we're going to answer a burning question that I know a lot of you have because you tell me about it. How do you stay engaged with the news without letting it wreck you? Is that even possible? My guest today, the legendary meditation teacher, Sharon Salzberg says, yes, it is. And she has an enormous amount of practical information to share on this tip. She's going to talk about everything from feeling your anger without being consumed by it, how to investigate what is beneath that anger, why the civil rights movement is a surprisingly useful model here, and how to handle the guilt that many of us feel, how to deal with this sense that maybe we're not doing enough. Before we get started with Sharon, I do want to point out that coming up next week on Tuesday, election day, and then on Wednesday, the day after election day, I'll be doing free live guided meditation sessions at 4 p.m. Eastern on both Tuesday and Wednesday. We'll do a sit together and then I'll take your questions. And on Tuesday, I'll have a secret weapon with me, the great Buddhist teacher, Vinnie Ferraro. If you go to danharris.com and sign up for my newsletter, we will send the Zoom link directly to you. Again, these are free. We usually do these just for subscribers on the app, on my app, 10% with Dan Harris. But given what's happening right now, we thought we would open it up to everybody. So again, sign up over at danharris.com, we'll send you a Zoom link Tuesday and Wednesday at 4 Eastern, Tuesday with Vinnie Ferraro, Wednesday with me solo. Okay, let's get to Sharon Salzberg. Before we dive in, I just want to say what you're about to hear is a conversation that Sharon and I recorded with an audience of 10% happier subscribers watching live on Zoom and popping in with their own questions. So you'll get to eavesdrop on the type of conversations we're having all the time every week over on the app. Here we go. Sharon Salzberg. Hello, everybody. Welcome to the 10% Happier podcast. I'm your host, Dan Harris. Let me start by asking you a question myself, which is how often do you consume the news and what does it do to your mind when you do it? It's so funny because asking that question, the obvious implication is that the news is bad, you know? So I guess that I make some effort to actually consume good news, you know, with any of these services that provide that, just to kind of have a little bit of perspective. I don't watch television news at all. Sorry, former anchor person. And I read the news on the internet. I try to be really careful about the sources that I go to. I realize that I'm not that compelled to find out other people's opinions about things. I would rather just read to the best of my ability what happened, you know, and form my own opinion and try not to get caught in perpetual outrage and other exhausting kinds of reactions. So I would say every day I look at something on the internet. I'm also working on a book, so that means I'm on Instagram an awful lot of the time because I need a distraction also from the book. So I mostly get my news on Instagram these days. Do you not find Instagram or social media generally to be, at least at times, enervating? Yes, of course. I mean, I try to be more discerning, you know, but not get just caught and magnetized. Let me look at everyone's opinion and all those comments and all those ways of just opining about things, you know, and just read a little bit about what happens. Mostly on Instagram, I follow babies eating their first banana and puppies cavorting in meadows and things like that. I do follow some journalists and attorneys and people like that, not as many as I used to. What do you do? Like, you have a go-to tool for, let's say, the day after Donald Trump is reelected president in November of 2024, after there's been something big and for many of us disturbing in the news. Do you have a way of metabolizing it? Well, to some extent, I find myself in some position of, you could say, responsibility or responsiveness. So for example, at the Insight Meditation Society, where people do intensive silent retreats the day after a presidential election, we post a folded up note on the bulletin board and it says on the front, if you are interested in who won the U.S. presidential election, lift this up. So in the year 2000, if you lifted it up, it said, we don't know yet. And all these people, you know, have been meditating for like six weeks or something at that point, were a little bit spaced out and they'd come in to talk in a regularly scheduled interview and they'd say, don't we usually know on the next day? And we'd say, yeah, we kind of do. And there was one person attending that retreat who had been a Senate aide and he was on his way to graduate school. So it was his interim period. And so he was sitting for three months and he knew that it was like completely wacky. And he had to walk to downtown Barry. This was a long time ago, of course, no Wi-Fi, he had to walk to downtown Barry to go to the library and get on a computer, find out what was going on. So this past presidential election, people started crying, you know, there was a lot of great distress and pain. And I always find that when I'm in a situation of trying to be present with others who are struggling that it reminds me, it brings out the best in me. And so I, not that I have answers, you know, or conclusions, but there's a way of, first, of course, not feeling so alone, but also reaching for the greatest clarity I can and perspective that I can. So that helps. Yeah. That tracks for me. Just to pick up on some of the things you said, from my perspective, I, like you, I have trained my, I don't go on Instagram much. For some reason, I find Instagram particularly provocative for my psyche, but I do go on TikTok a lot. And I have trained that algorithm to pretty much only serve me comedy clips, animals and emotional reunions of people who haven't seen each other in a long time. And I find that in that way, TikTok is generally a relief. It's a great distraction from my own book writing process or when I need a break throughout the day. And there is something painful in the news for me. I have many coping mechanisms, but one of them you touched on, which is one of my favorite expressions, which everybody listening to the show and our subscribers who are watching it live have heard me say a million times, but one of my favorite expressions is never worry alone. And so generally my move, if there's something going on in the news that I'm just really freaked out about is to call a friend, talk to my wife. And I find that extremely, extremely helpful. You're one of my favorite people to follow on Instagram. You've got a great presence on Instagram. Maybe you transferred over from TikTok, I don't know. But I meant that, not to be saccharine, twice, a couple of weeks ago, I was accused of being an optimist. And each time I said once in the Eightfold Path class, that was the second time I was recording a podcast with Jerry Colonna. We were kind of co-hosting and there was a guest who I said something. And he said, I can tell you're a glass half full kind of person. And I said, no one has ever said that to me before. I mean, being a Jew and a Buddhist and a New Yorker, it was like very far from the kind of commentary I usually get, you know, since all we talk about is suffering and freedom from suffering. But I do find that I need to have some balance and I admire, not to be saccharine about it, but I admire those people who make an effort to put out good news because there is still love in the world. And one of my favorite images was something I'd read where they said that after the atom bomb dropped in Hiroshima, even further devastation spread throughout the land when this rumor spread that grass and trees and flowers would never grow again. It's like the laws of nature themselves had exploded. As devastating as everything was, no doubt, people felt a greater ability to go on when that rumor was dispelled. It's like there was something that was not broken. It was something that was intact and whole. And I think about that when I think about loving kindness meditation, like taking the time to tune into that energy. I think about that in terms of consciously directing my mind, not just toward the terrible things that are happening, but toward that which is good. You know, one version of that which a lot of people are familiar with was Mr. Rogers, who said when he was a child, I don't know how old, and he was really, really upset about something in the news. And his mother said, look for the helpers. And another reminder that I've had is when I was doing some research on the quality of awe because I was going to write something about it. And I'd always thought of awe as a beautiful quality we experience, like when we go to the sequoia forest and we see the magnificent redwood trees or something. It turns out one of the greatest sources of awe is moral beauty. It's seeing goodness in people. So sometimes I just remind myself, let's look for that consciously, so to at least include that in my field of awareness. Yes. I mean, I a million percent agree, and one of the raps I often go on is that we need to be aware of the fact that two things or actually many things can be true at the same time. Horrible shit going down at 1600 Pennsylvania and all over the place, people are teaching children and helping the elderly and planting flowers and and and we get distracted from the latter, from the good stuff, by the power of these algorithms which profit off of our anger and outrage and fear. Let me ask you a question specifically about anger, and this comes from a subscriber named Amy. I'm just going to read you the question she submitted. My strategy since the election has been to avoid reading or watching much news. However, plenty leaks through. So I'm generally aware of how bad things are. And every once in a while I do subject myself to actual engagement with the news. I get so angry that I'm seething. I need some strategies so that I can both be aware of what's going on, take right action when I can and stay somewhat sane. Suggestions? Two question marks. Here you go. That is the essential question, isn't it? I think there are many aspects to that. I think we feel what we feel. I'm looking for my mug collection. As I often say, in the pandemic, in the height of the pandemic, when I was teaching incessantly online, apparently I was saying the same thing over and over again because people started making me mugs and sending them. And so I have one right here that says, banging your head against the wall is never fun. Another one, which I can't find right now, says something's just hurt. And it's not because we have a bad attitude. It's not because our thinking is wrong, not because we have to talk ourselves out of it. Something's just hurt. It is painful to recognize so much of what's happening. And yet we need to, I think, accept the anger, accept the outrage, not fight it, not be ashamed of it, not be afraid of it, and yet not get consumed by it. Because getting consumed by it clearly is not a strategy for making a difference. We're so devastated or debilitated by being lost in that feeling. So of course, one of the great skills of mindfulness is being able to recognize what we're feeling and not going to one of two extremes. It could be either way. One is hating what we're feeling and pushing away, trying to push away what we're feeling and being embroiled in it that way. And the other is just getting overwhelmed by it. So I would start, I do start by trying to experience the anger and the pain of the anger. It's not bad or wrong or terrible, to recognize it in that middle way. And then either breathe consciously, because I need to sort of get my nervous system in some greater harmony, or ask myself the question, what can I do? And it may, of course, not be monumental or magnificent, but it is some way channeling that energy of the anger, because it's a highly energized state. So it's not so self-destructive or other destructive and actually has a pathway. As long as we realize we're not going to solve everything instantly or anything perhaps, but we can help maybe someone else not feel so alone, or give voice to something in some way so that we don't feel silenced in our distress. And then obviously, I would love to hear from people about what they do, because I'm sure there are many, many avenues of action. So that's basically what I do, is accept the feeling, but maybe don't let it override me, because then it is very damaging. We just stew and we feel overcome by that, and the actions that we take, usually if we're lost in anger, or I'm missing a lot of information, it's like if you think about the last time you were super angry at yourself, and just bring it up, like bring it up right now. It's not a time when you're likely thinking, you know, I said that really stupid thing in the meeting, but I did five great things that same morning. It's like those five great things, they're gone, right? And so we lose a lot of options, we lose a lot of creativity and possibility when we are lost in anger. And so that's the effort to feel it, but not get lost in it, and then channel it in some way. I've noticed about a lot of smart and effective people, they know exactly how a process should work and they can describe it in great detail, usually while sighing. What's missing is software that actually matches it. So instead you've got client intake living across four different spreadsheets in an inbox. Today's sponsor, Base44, is built for exactly that moment. Base44 is an AI platform where you describe what you need in your own words, who should use it, how it should run, what it needs to remember, and what should happen next. And you get a working build that you can actually run. 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Head to Wayfair.com to shop all things home. That's W-A-Y-F-A-I-R.com. ♪ Wayfair, every style, every home. ♪ On this subject of feeling the anger without getting overwhelmed by it, Laura, one of the subscribers just typed into a chat box and I'm quoting here, for me, grief and fear are what almost always need to be felt behind my anger. Anger seems to be easier to feel than what's behind it. Does that track for you? It does. I mean, I think of feeling as strong as anger is usually a compound. That's part of our development of insight or wisdom. You know, if we're reacting to the anger or we're lost in it and like planning revenge, you know, one vengeful fantasy after another, we're not gonna learn much. And so, one of the first things we talk about in mindfulness is pivoting. Instead of like, I'm so angry about this and this is what I'm gonna do about it. It's almost like turning our attention around and asking, what is anger? What is it? What is this feeling? And we, you know, we check it out on our bodies. What does it feel like? And also, we kind of watch the anger movie and this is exactly what we see. Maybe within the anger, we find a lot of grief. We find a lot of fear. We find a lot of sadness. Maybe within the desire, we find a lot of loneliness. You know, all these feelings are compounds and that's a real developing understanding. And then we also see, as we keep paying attention, that, you know, maybe it arose. It seems so solid, so forever, so consuming. But when we really look, it's coming and going. It's ebbing and flowing that there's space within it. It's a kind of porousness that happens. And that's the place from which we can actually capture the energy and do something with it. If it just feels like this monolithic entity that's taken over our mind and body, it's not gonna be possible. But once we see the changing nature of it, which it actually has, you know, we're not superimposing something on it, then it becomes possible to channel the energy. The English translation for an ancient phraseology around the power of mindfulness vis-a-vis emotions is seeing by dividing. When you can look at anger's true nature, which is that it's inherently substanceless, you know, there's no core to it. It feels monolithic and super powerful, but it's actually made up of a shifting set of physical and psychological phenomena. Well, then you're not so owned by it and you can do a smarter, more helpful thing. Having said that, I suspect, you know, I have this ability that I often brag about, Sharon, which is that I can channel the thoughts of my listeners and viewers. I suspect there are people out there thinking, okay, okay, I hear you, meditation's good, blah, blah, blah. But really, in the face of the polycrisis, in the face of the many dumpster fires that are raging domestically and globally right now, you're telling me that sitting still is going to be useful in any way? That seems avoidant or self-indulgent, the opposite of helpful. Well, I think if you admire, say, movement leaders, you know, it's interesting to inquire about where they get their ability to have a sustained effort. You know, it's like I used to, because I was alive, although younger, of course, during the Civil Rights Movement, and so I was, like, too young to go off and try to do voter registration, but I knew people who did, and in the face of not only threats, but violence, and it was so important. It's part of why I think I formed the conviction that voting is like a sacred act, which I really do believe. And it is the equitable voice, you know? We all have one vote. We have one voice if we live here. Not everyone, I noticed, is from here when they were signing in, or any other democratic country. And so I really saw, I mean, or you look at the film clips, you know, of the news of that day, and people going out and getting beaten, and going out again, and kind of shining, you know? They didn't seem bitter. They didn't seem hostile. And so, in a way, they were connecting to something bigger. And I used to reflect in a sort of naive way, well, isn't it amazing they had the strength to do that, not knowing when they would win, not knowing when they would prevail? And then one day I realized they didn't know if they would prevail, right? It wasn't a question of when, but is this even gonna work? We don't know. And they were able to connect to something bigger. And so it doesn't have to be meditation, of course. It could be many other things, but there's something that ignites people. And then also, I think, to the degree I've talked to people, say, leading the fast food workers' strikes in New York, when they were striking for higher minimum wage and the ability to unionize, and talking to some of those people, and they would say things like, everybody wanted me to be quiet. My family said, basically, don't rock the boat because you have almost nothing now, and you will have really nothing if you antagonize these people in power. And this one woman said, I just couldn't do that because I came to realize I was worth something. I was worth more. I was worth better treatment. And not only that, I looked at the younger generation coming up, and I wanted better for them. So somehow, I have found that, and it is lots of different means for different people, that ability to connect to something bigger, that ability to have a different kind of self-respect, not because we've had a particular accomplishment, just because we are, we exist. For me, that all has come from meditation. And I think it's essential to have a sustained, I mean, look how tired we are, you know? And how overcome we get. How do we sustain an effort to make a difference? We need some other sources of strength. And I would say, very genuinely for me, that's come from meditation practice. So I think one has to try to find it somewhere, if not in meditation. In meditation, you don't sort of need equipment. You don't need to buy anything, right? You just need to breathe. Let me ask you about something else that I suspect, and that I know people are struggling with because they're telling me. I will say, I was inspired to ask this next question because Kelly, one of our subscribers, just wrote in that I did read her mind, and that she's always thinking that she's not doing enough. And so I wanna ask you a question about guilt, this feeling that we're never doing enough. We got a separate message about this from another subscriber, Barbara, and I'll read it. How do I deal with feelings of guilt about the fact that I live comfortably and safely in my own home with plenty to eat, healthcare available, et cetera, while so many do not have that? I give money to support organizations, but there are so many who need more. I just feel it is not fair slash right slash whatever, and I don't know how to deal with it. In terms of not doing enough, I think we never feel we're doing enough because problems are complex. Their systems are terrible. I mean, for example, I am a consumer of the healthcare system more than I'd like to be, and it is tough. You know, to make your way through. I do believe in a bigger picture and in the mystery of the unfolding of life. We do what we can do, and it will not seem like enough, but it is what we can do right now. Hopefully, we do do that. And I think what happens when we're lucky, very lucky over time, we see, oh, that planted a seed, or that did something, as the story I often tell about first opening the Insight Meditation Society 50 years ago, and within a month, we got two letters that were remarkable for how they were addressed. The first, instead of being addressed to the Insight Meditation Society, was addressed to the Instant Meditation Society, and I really like that, because isn't that what we're trained to? We need instant gratification, or something's not worth it. But the second really became my favorite, and that envelope, instead of being addressed to the Insight Meditation Society, was addressed to the Hindsight Meditation Society, and I love that, because there have been so many times in my meditation life, my spiritual life, where I felt like nothing was happening, only for me to look back later and say, oh, look at that, something was happening. And many, many times in my life trying to be of service, or trying to make a difference, where I thought, well, it was a waste, and yet, sometimes looking back, I think, oh, look, look, what happened? In a way I couldn't have guessed, that rippled out, or that helped someone else have some strength to confront something, or not feel so alone, and I so firmly believe in the Hindsight Meditation Society, and every once in a while when IMS would have a significant anniversary, the 10th anniversary, the 15th anniversary, and they were making stuff, I have some here, but it's not around, right? You know, they'd make mugs, and caps, and T-shirts, and things like that. Every time I'd say, couldn't we have something that says the Hindsight Meditation Society? And every time they'd say no. And then for our 40th anniversary, I asked again, and they said no, but somebody made me like 20 mugs that say Hindsight Meditation Society, so I do have a collection. I believe it so deeply that we do what we do, and it will unfold, you know? It just really does. I also am writing, like I said, and I was just writing this story that Jon Kabat-Zinn told, I think he often tells it, about him being a science student at MIT. One day he just saw a piece of paper pasted onto the wall that said Zen meditation session, classroom, whatever, and he had no idea what it was about, but he was drawn to it, and he went, and there were like four or five other students there only, and I think the faculty advisor, and there was a Zen teacher, Kepler Roshi, who at one point was the abbot of Rochester Zen Center, and so this is total projection. I have no idea if it's true, but I can imagine Kepler Roshi going to his hotel that night and thinking, boy, that was a bummer, and you know, like only five people showed up, and I didn't really make a difference, and so I said, but one of them was Jon Kabat-Zinn, who went on later in life to found Mindfulness-Based Stress Reduction, and that was it. actually really completely changed the world of meditation and research. So I think about that, you know, and I don't know if that Kepler rush was really thinking that, but I would have perhaps, you know, thought, oh, so sad, you know, like I came all the way here and nothing happened. But we don't know. And so I believe it so powerfully that I challenge that feeling of guilt and not doing enough. I wear a lot of t-shirts because I work from home and I'm a podcaster and so I can be as casual as I want. And it's a nice little way to rebel against several decades in the news business when I had to wear a suit all the time. 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This is what our nervous system can bear, and we'll just do what is ours to do and hopefully feel good enough about it to be a little team. And then in terms of, you know, living a privileged life, and I mean, that kind of parallel question is, is it okay to experience joy when so many people are suffering? Is it okay to have a good time? And I've seen that certainly in different activists, and those are the activists who crash and burn because we have to be realistic, I think, about what does feed us and what nourishes us, you know, because the point isn't, it's like when in Buddhist teaching, when compassion, one of the ways compassion is defined is the movement towards suffering to see if we can be of help. It's not the movement into suffering to burn up ourselves because then nothing happens, right? And so we have to think of what nourishes us, what gives us resilience, what feeds us, what helps us, what strengthens us so that we can move towards suffering. And that often involves, strangely, overcoming a resistance to taking in joy, you know, especially at the same time in parallel to experiencing genuinely all the suffering that is. Well said, this may be our last question. It's a big one, and it's, this is from a very different perspective. This is from somebody whose life is being actively disrupted by the news. So this is a person who's really being directly impacted, not feeling guilty that other people are impacted. So here we go. Surviving the news is hard enough, but how do you do it when it's directly affecting you? My wife is deployed. I keep hearing about the war, and the asshole in the White House keeps flapping his big mouth, and I'm just filled with rage because it feels like it will never end. It feels like I'll never have my wife back. It feels like my son will never see his other mom again. How do I approach this without going insane? I try to avoid the news, but I also feel like I need to know what's going on. It's so goddamn hard, Kaylee. First of all, Kaylee, just for me personally, that situation sounds brutally difficult, and I am very sorry for you, for your wife, and for your son. I think perhaps the heart of that question is about the balance between staying informed and driving yourself nuts, but pick any part of it you want, Sharon. Yeah, well, it was also, I was thinking, before you asked the question, I thought, I haven't asked Dan any questions. Isn't it time to turn this around? And I'm also very sorry, especially with a child and being so deeply impacted. I think in this case, when I was doing the last Eightfold Path class on Sunday, and there were a number of questions about being impacted by suffering, and so what I said there was, I knew this was coming up, and I said, I don't know that. It's only a question of surviving the news. It's a question of surviving reality, and I wanted to expand the scope of this discussion to surviving reality, so here we are. The first thing that I thought of, I thought of our friend Amishi Jha and her work in the military, and the work that she's done with military spouses and families, but I think the element of it that really came to mind was not feeling so alone. There is a community of people going through very similar things, and it's not just a question of getting together to share outrage, and all that may well be a part of it, but to really hear from one another and learn from one another, because I think the aloneness and the feeling of struggle, and it's just me, and this is so monumental, is just makes things so much harder, and so I know from Amishi Jha, who's a neuroscientist, whose work is really bringing mindfulness, and to some extent, loving-kindness practices to people in high, high-stress situations, including the military, and I know from her just the depth of the communities that have evolved from people sharing that kind of work in the military, and so that would be the first thing. Well, it's maybe a little bit of a take-off, Dan, on never suffer alone, or struggle alone, or never worry alone. I've heard you say all that. That was primarily what came to mind, and I also wanna really appreciate the question and the point of view, because we can hold a lot of things in abstraction, and they're real. These are real people, and giving voice to that is actually a huge help, and not letting people forget. It reminds me a little bit, I was teaching with Roshi John Halifax at her Zen Center in Santa Fe, and they were sponsoring a lot of programs of trying to help people in the community, various communities, and one of her students, who was also a Zen priest, got up, and they had announced they were gonna have a discussion about, they had a feeding program for people who were homeless, and he got up, and the first thing he said was, my father's homeless, and suddenly, the entire discussion was about someone's father, and not a kind of abstract homeless person that we're gonna try to do a good deed with, and that's what's real, and I think this is, it's so crucial and so valuable that you give voice to it. Somebody was asking the name of the person who wrote in about the spouse being overseas. The name is Kaylee. Part of Kaylee's question, as I heard it, was about the balance between staying informed on the one hand and overdoing it on the other. To me, and I'd be curious if you have a take on this, Sharon, but to me, it's about the innate wisdom we talked about before. I think we have a sense, and this sense can be bolstered through mindfulness practice, of how much our nervous system can bear, and for me, I just try to tune into that, and if I notice I'm going, you know, I'm on hour three of reading the news, I might put the phone down. You know, that is what I would recommend to others, as has been referenced in some of the posts on the chat board during the course of this recording. Sebene Selassie, our mutual friend and a great Dharma teacher in her own right, has a rule for herself, which is no news before noon, and so having these little guardrails that you set based on how much you understand your own nervous system, I think is crucial. I think that's so important, and I was on a previous podcast with you, Dan, and I don't even remember the topic, but at one point I said, and one of the reasons I don't watch television news at all is because I realized that I had a great sensitivity to deceit, to feeling that I was being lied to, to gaslighting. There were many secrets in my childhood. I have a pretty traumatic reaction when I hear that, and so I've learned. You know, that's a vulnerability, and I need to have a boundary, you know, in order to flourish, because my flourishing, obviously, is connected to the ways I can serve, and so I think I totally agree, you know, and I've often quoted somebody not that I follow it, you know, so perfectly, no news before noon. When people ask me, you know, we do form out of our intuition and our sensitivity things that we won't do or some realization about how we will pursue things, and I think that's great. Yeah, one little rule that I've been following for myself. I had done this many years ago, but then I had Arthur Brooks on the show a couple months ago, and he recommended it, and I've started to get much more disciplined is that the first and last hour of the day, I'm off devices, and often, I'll try to make it more than an hour, but that's my rough rule. I don't always follow it, but as a North Star, I find it really helpful. Well, Sharon, it's always a pleasure to talk to you. Always a pleasure to talk to you. Next time, I wanna ask you more questions. You have infinite opportunities to do that because we get, luckily for me, we get to hang out offline at IRL. You organized a lovely little lunch for me as I was emerging from my most recent 13-day meditation retreat, which I really appreciated and was really fun. Thank you for your time today. Thanks for being Teacher of the Month on the 10% app. Yes, I won a T-shirt, you know? I've never been Teacher of the Month before. You seem to like mugs, so maybe we should do a mug. I do like mugs, actually. I do really like mugs. I wanted to say, you gave me a Hindsight Meditation Society mug. It holds my toothbrush in our bathroom. So you see it every day. I see it every day, yes. Thank you again, Sharon. Always great to see you. Thanks to everybody for posting your amazing questions and for being here, for which I am eternally grateful. I hope you have a great rest of the day, and I'll see you next Tuesday. Also, a quick ask before I let you go. If you've got a minute, head on over to danharris.com and sign up for my newsletter. It drops in your inbox on Monday mornings, often a busy and stressful time for us. I try to write a short essay that has a little bit of wisdom, actionable, practical. wisdom that you can immediately weave into your life on Monday mornings. A lot of people find them helpful and I hope you will too. You can sign up at danharris.com. It's totally free. Now to the credits. Thank you so much to everybody who works so hard to make this show. 10% Happier is produced by Tara Anderson, Marissa Schneiderman, DJ Cashmere, David Hart, and Hayden Broom. Post-production is handled by the great folks over at Greenhorn Creative and Nick Thorburn of the great indie rock band Islands wrote our theme. Thank you for listening. Deuces. Ready to feel more energized and in control of your health. If you've tried diet and exercise, but still aren't seeing the results you're looking for, it may be time to explore a different approach at orderly meds.com. You can connect with licensed medical providers through a simple virtual process, all from the comfort of home and find out if a GOP one treatment may be right for you. Learn more at orderly meds.com. That's orderly meds.com compounded medications are not FDA approved eligibility determined by a licensed provider. Individual results may vary. See website for details. 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