Why Saying No Is the Most Productive Thing You Can Do | Robin Arzón

Key Takeaway

Protect your mornings and use the power of 'no' to protect your 'yes' like a sword. This isn't about being busy—it's about being productive. Create blocks on your calendar where you have nothing to do. That white space is for creative thinking, reading for pleasure, and actually living. When your calendar reflects what's truly important to you rather than other people's fire drills, you're not just hustling—you're thriving on your own terms.

Episode Overview

Robin Arzon, Peloton's VP of Fitness Programming, redefines hustle as intense, boundary-protected work aligned with personal values—not volume-based busyness. She shares how psychological distancing, mantras, and treating recovery as a requirement (not a reward) help her maintain high performance without burnout, while emphasizing that the loudest voice should always be the one between your own ears.

Full Transcript

Transcript of Why Saying No Is the Most Productive Thing You Can Do | Robin Arzón from 10% Happier. Auto-generated from episode audio; may contain minor errors.

Hello everybody. Welcome to the 10% Happier podcast. I'm your host Dan Harris. We are in the middle of uh an excellent series this week called Get Fit Sainly where we talk about how to take care of your body without losing your mind. And this series is sponsored by our friends over at Bio Optimizers. Bioptimizers uh make a product called Magnesium Breakthrough, which they say delivers better sleep, calmer days, and more energy. Uh definitely want to give a big uh thanks to the folks over at Bio Optimizers.

You'll be hearing much more about magnesium breakthrough later in today's episode. Today my guest is going to be talking about hustle. This is a a loaded word. I know a lot of people hear the word hustle and they think they're going to be told to push themselves beyond their capacity to aim uh for standards that are impossible both professionally and personally. But my guest uh is actually trying to retake the word hustle and she's doing so in ways that I actually find quite convincing. Said guest is Robin Arzone who is uh vice president of fitness programming and head instructor at Pelaton.

Uh she's a 27time marathon and ultramarathon runner, a three-time New York Times uh bestselling author and the founder of the Swagger Society. She also hosts a podcast of her own called Project Swagger. So today we're going to talk about hustle without burnout. Uh how to rewire your self-t talk and counterprogram against your inner critic. Uh the upside of jealousy, why action creates motivation, not the other way around, and much more with Robin Arzone after this quick break. A few things before we hear from our sponsors today.

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You can go to danh harris.com and sign up for the 10% with Dan Harris app right now to start your free trial and we hope you will join the party. We love what we're doing over in the app and we'd love to have you as part of it. We'll be right back after this quick break. If you carry physical tension that's hard to release, tight shoulders, a jaw you keep catching yourself clenching, our sponsor by Optimizers says magnesium supports the normal muscle relaxation process and that persistent tension is one of the things commonly reported when people fall behind on their daily intake.

They've got a formula called Magnesium Breakthrough that they say supports muscle function, stress response, and recovery, and comes with a 365day money back guarantee. As always, talk to your doctor before starting any new supplement. Much more on this later. To learn more though, you can check out byoptimizers.com/happier. byoptimizers.com/happier. byoptimizers.com/happier. Use the code happier at checkout for 15% off, plus free gifts. Today, Robin Arzand is here to talk about habits, identity, and how small daily things can compound. And speaking of small daily things that compound, I want to tell you about eight sleep.

They make a product called the pod, which is a smart mattress cover that heats and cools your bed automatically and tracks your sleep without a wearable. It's a habit that runs itself essentially, which if you've ever tried to build a habit, you know really is the dream. If you want to check it out, use the code danh harris at eight.com/danharris at eight.com/danharris at eight.com/danharris for up to $350 off of the pod 5. Robin Ozone, welcome to the show. Let's do this, Dan. It's so funny to sit here and talk to you because I feel like I know you because I've taken so many rides with you.

I've only actually met you one other time, but I'm sure you hear this all the time daily. daily. daily. Daily because you're in my life in such an intimate way. But of course I don't know you. know you. know you. And it's a very visceral experience. Like it's different than you know watching a movie or even watching a concert. Like concert. Like concert. Like you are physically active in that experience. And so there's I mean there's a chemical thing that happens as well. well. well. Well, it's very cool to sit here with you.

Um I want to talk about hustle. Hustle gets a bad rap. I think deservedly these days because of hustle porn and this idea that you should, you know, rise and grind and push yourself to exhaustion. Never stop. Never stop. Uh but you have really made an effort to retake and redefine the word. So can you say more about that? My version of hustle includes boundaries, includes rest. I think my affection for the word hustle is because I center my work ethic and my values, but it's they're mine.

they're not, you know, for somebody's accolade or, you know, what my business partner says or what somebody at Pelaton says. Like I I think that it does require a certain level of confidence to embrace that word on your own terms. And I recognize that, you know, structures and like kind of work culture doesn't necessarily afford that for folks, that kind of maybe agency. But that's where I want to push the envelope because I think I am tenacious. I am kind of as an instructor and as a leader a little bit of I inject a lot of tough love.

Um I have very little tolerance for excuses and I think that's where my affection for hustle comes from but it's not leave yourself running into the ground based on somebody else's agenda. Um and I use the power of no to protect my yes like a sword. sword. sword. Say more about that. What does that look like? like? like? I say no to almost everything. It's a miracle I'm sitting in this chair. Yeah. I was just going to say look at you. Um, no. I mean, I really I really try, especially since becoming a parent in the past few years.

I have two young kids. I try to think, well, first of all, when it comes to a social engagement, if I wouldn't say yes today, the answer is no. I was kidding myself for a while that I was like, oh, in a month, in two weeks, in 3 months, I'll totally want to do that thing at 7:00 p.m. Um, or 9:00 p.m. or oh my god, I'm like, I'm already asleep at 9:00. So, for social engagements, if I wouldn't say yes immediately, it's likely going to be a no.

And then for business things, I try to align my yeses with the energy of hell freaking yes. Like, it's a high bar because it it's it's the kind of yes that like makes me want to leap out of my seat, even if it's going to be really hard work, aka hustle. The term full body. Yes. Have you ever heard about that? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. That sounds like what your north star is. star is. star is. It's like a full embodiment. Initial years of my career, I think, you know, you you say yes just to put in the reps and make the connections and that I think serves a purpose in your 20s and 30s.

Um or maybe just in the beginning of of any any journey where you're really trying to, you know, put your name on it. But now I'm at a point where I can be a little bit more um selective. Back to hustle. you talk about the difference um between intensity and volume because I I think that's where a lot of people get stuck. My old version of hustle personally was work till I couldn't [ __ ] function anymore. And um I think a lot of people do that. They push themselves too hard and it the hustle backfires.

So can you just talk about the difference between intensity and volume? and volume? and volume? Volume begs the question, are you busy or productive? And when I look at my calendar, I'm really proud that my current day calendar reflects who I am and what I'm about. And I think a few years ago, I don't know, I don't necessarily think I could have stood by that where it was I I felt the need to add things on my calendar just to say that my days were full and I was really conflating busyness with products.

And I think for type A folks who like to who like the checklist, they like the gold star, you know, as a kid, they were the straight A student or aspired to be, of which I was definitely that energy. Um, checking things off my calendar for the sake of busyness felt like I was doing something. And now I actually purposely create blocks on my calendar where I have nothing to do. And that I find equally as rewarding. Now, what do you do during what do you do during That's creative thinking.

That's reading. That's literally reading for pleasure. It's the stack of magazines that somehow piles up every single month that I will just sit there and literally do do that on like a Tuesday. Yes. Yes. Yes. Really? Really? Really? Yes. Yes. Yes. Yeah. I don't do that. I I will say I do my work schedule which I've really worked on over the years and I want to own both of us have a lot of agency that I think a lot of people listening don't and help and help and help but my work schedule um does have chunks for meditation and working out but I don't do and you're part of the the latter um but I don't have like large unstructured blocks I it's interesting to think about but I I Yes, I part of my antipathy toward the word hustle is just internally I'm just constantly focused on checking off the next thing on my to-do list and I don't like that energy in myself.

in myself. in myself. Well, I think for me hustle requires identifying what is important for you and I think other people's fire drills and perception of what is urgent will gobble up your important unless you decide it for yourself. And so when I was defining what hustle looked like for me, it was that it was like I'm propping up in my life what's important. My calendar is going to reflect that. My actions are going to reflect that. My business commitments and my family commitments are going to reflect that.

And I very rarely will respond to a quote unquote fire drill in the maybe in the way that others um would like. And I think it's that red lining that gets a little closer to other people's fire drills or or previous perceptions or what I think is an outdated perception of what hustle needs to be. To be clear, I'm down with your definition of hustle. But so let's just talk a little bit about folks who don't have some of the agency that you and I have.

How can we protect ourselves, protect our energy and not be sucked into other people's priorities and fire drills as you say um in a world where we have bosses and um you know sometimes not a lot of choice. Yeah, I get that. I protect my mornings. Um I do think sometimes it requires the sacrifice of not watching that additional Netflix show, you know, the night before. And when energy is misaligned, it really does come down to the basics of how you're sleeping, how you're fueling, how you're moving.

And that is not is going to be a revelation to literally anyone listening to this. We've heard it a million times. But there the what rituals and processes are we putting into place to make that happen? And how are we telling the stakeholders in our lives, including our kids and our family members and the people who are kind of just loving energy vampires about those priorities? And especially if your habits are shifting and I used to be the person, the fun person who used to go out at 10 o'clock at night and it's like now I go to bed at 8 p.m.

and that's just who I am now. am now. am now. Is that really who you are? I'm in bed by 9. I am asleep by 911. Like 9 11 9:12 according to my aura ring. Asleep. ring. Asleep. ring. Asleep. What time are you up? 5:45 5:45 5:45 6. the communicating to the people in your life, the setting of boundaries. I think that's a hard thing for many people. Um, we're just uncomfortable with it. We don't want to, you know, we'd rather say yes, even though we don't want to say yes, then do the hard thing and say no.

So, do you have any thoughts or advice on how to communicate these boundaries to other people in a way that doesn't make you feel awful? We practice the reps in low stakes environments, right? Like I don't suggest you go to the CEO of your company and tell them you know can you reschedule all hands because that's doesn't work for me. Um but I do think that we can start with lower stakes environments. And I do think when you frame the value proposition as you are going to get more out of me because this is how my energy system works or this is how my family life is.

You know what I mean? you you begin with the end in mind like what does success mean for the team for the company for the KPIs that are relevant to your life and then work backwards and I have had those conversations with bosses before and actually my Pelton schedule you know has adapted over the years because of that it's like you are going to get more value from this piece of content if I'm filming during at this time rather than this time like I'm I'm not going to be good to anybody teaching at 9:00 at night um east coast time for our west coast you viewers.

So, those are little examples of that. Couple of other things I've heard you say that that I think really help redeem the word hustle. Uh, one of them is the idea that recovery is part of the deal. It's not a reward. It's a requirement. Can you say more about that? I mean, if you look at the most obvious examples or applications of recovery, they are in our in our physical state and how how we need the recovery to grow muscle. And it's actually not during the workout where you're making any of those adaptations.

It's later, you know, call it 12 to 24 hours later when when the muscles are repairing, when your energy system is repairing, when your nervous system is is calming down. And that piece of recovery was actually the long that was that was the hardest lesson I had to learn. Um cuz I am a pretty high octane individual and up until having kids really I thought more is better, harder has got to be better. Like more additional difficult workouts have to be better. And now I really have a much more polarized approach where I try to keep the hard days hard and the easy days easy.

Not only in my training but I think in life um to the extent we can control it. And recovery is a huge piece of that. And I which is why my bedtime is earlier than it's ever been in the past few years, including having young kids. And I've really created some boundaries around my evening routine and my morning routine. And those are the hours that I can largely control. Like things that happen during business hours, you know, you're really, you know, at the mercy of of what you do for a job often.

But for me, it's definitely worth going to bed early and waking up early and having those um bookends to my day. day. day. Just one one more question on on on hustle. Uh from a slightly skeptical standpoint, just trying to represent the audience here. I hear from a lot of people that like self-improvement has gotten really annoying to them. And um not only professionally but also personally, everybody's telling them you got to track your steps, track your sleep, uh uh track your KPIs on Pelaton, whatever.

Uh get a a personal record, blah blah blah. And there's an expression that I like, the the subtle aggression of self-improvement. So, what do you say to people who feel like, look, I just I'm kind of depleted and so we're talking about you guys are talking about hustle and I really just want rest. rest. rest. I get it. Um, I think that we we've optimized ourselves out of alignment in a lot of cases. I actually just recently started wearing an aura ring and I will have days where I will check, you know, my stats and it'll like subtly enrage me because it'll be nudging things like, "Don't you want to take a nap?" And it's like, "If only." You know, like, "Thanks.

I didn't think of that." Right. So, there are things that I understand in this um especially with with the data dump that we're receiving constantly. I believe that that's never that's not going away. I mean, we're only going to be receiving more and more and more of these data points. But I do think that we can with things like meditation, with things like movement practices turn the volume up on the conversation in between our ears. And I do genu genuinely believe that should always be the loudest voice in the room.

And we have to find the processes that work for us that turn the volume up on that voice. And for me, for example, I will delete social media for months at a time. And I will only look at social media posts on a computer so I can actually manage that part of my business. And that's like a boundary that I've created for myself. I did the same thing. Uh I deleted Instagram from my phone um because I was making myself so unhappy looking at it. Um, and so now somebody else will post.

It has been a gigantic lift to my spirits to not be looking all the time. Same. Same. Same. I have a bunch more questions about the voice in the head because that is I know it's something you talk about our inner dialogue. But actually, the first time I met you, uh, the only time I met you, you were filming an Instagram video and you asked a really interesting and provocative question that has not left my mind. The other person who you filmed in that conversation was Peter Aia who uh has had some pretty serious problems since that.

Yes. Uh Uh Uh anyway, so you came up to me and then I saw you do it with Peter at New York Times wellness conference and you asked, "What is the wellness thing?" This is such a good question. What is the wellness trend hack or whatever that you personally skip? And I'm curious what your answer to that question is. The leaderboards. The leaderboards. The leaderboards. Like I skip the outward competition of trying to win the individual class. As somebody who knows that like the Pelon leaderboard is really motivating for folks or even race results are really motivating for folks.

I truly am only interested in competing with myself and I don't even look at that stuff. So I would say like external validation of competition. competition. competition. It's interesting. I've done the same thing. Um, I'm 54 and I found that I was hurting myself a lot because I was going for personal records or I wasn't necessarily competing with other people on the board, but I was pushing myself and pulling back a little bit and just doing the 45 minutes uh the 45minute ride without eyeballing every single stat has reduced my injury load and actually made me enjoy the workout much more.

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In your view, as I understand it, one of the big obstacles to Hustle is the innervoice. Um, can you tell me about the loudspeaker test? I was on a run. And I was training for an ultramarathon at the time and I was I mean it was a really far run. It I I was training for a 100 mile race and in training for that you basically do backto-back long runs. So that in one weekend I did a 20 mile run and a 30 mile run literally Saturday, Sunday back toback and halfway through that second long run it was all the way up by past the GWB in New York City.

Um it was just pretty far north from where I was living at the time. actually not far from where we are right now in the East Village. And I just broke down. Uh my thought my thoughts were super costic like just you're a fraud, you're never going to finish this race. And nearby was a soccer field and there were they were making all kinds of announcements on the loudspeaker. And I had this revelation that if my thoughts were being played on that loudspeaker, I would be mortified.

And this is coming from somebody who, you know, is in the motivation business and isn't telling folks that they can achieve and be and do all these things. And it was really jarring to me to have that acute awareness that I was like my own thoughts were cutting me off at the knees. And I started I kind of vowed to myself like I'm I'm going to take these mental going to I'm going to take these mental gymnastics and I'm going to learn them. And I started reading a ton.

I was already meditating at the time. So, I did have an awareness of my inner monologue, but not but that's sitting, you know, on the floor or on the couch or in a chair. It was it was the physical pain married with these really really horrible thoughts that really crystallized things for me. This kind of goes back to what we were talking about before with people's fatigue with self-improvement and wellness. Um, because on the one hand, like I get it. I totally get it. On the other hand, some of the fatigue, I think we have to look closely at it because it it can be undermining dressed up as self-care or self- loveve.

In other words, you're telling yourself, hey, the culture is pushing me too hard, which is true to a certain extent, but it is also true that you do need to, you know, get your body moving and make sure you get enough sleep. And so it's that balance between it's it's understanding like what is the right amount of skepticism we should bring to this and then what is it actually just my ego uh trying to keep me on the couch. I completely understand that and I think that we always need a I I think we need an increasingly healthy dose of skepticism to see what works for us.

But this is why I always bring it back to the basics like you do need to sleep. You do need to fuel. you do do you need to get your ass up and move and nobody's going to do that for you and there's no way to delegate that and there is no gonna there's not gonna be any AI machine nothing AI is never going to make me feel how I feel when I lift a heavy barbell off the floor ever and it is that feeling of agency that powers my no that en that said that tells me you are deserving of putting the phone down and going to bed at 9:00 at night and there's a cascade to that confidence And those are the folks who are redefining hustle for themselves.

I think that's the key. Redefining it for yourself. What you just said there is crucial. It's it it it's a marriage of something you said earlier, which is you don't get sucked into other people's fire drills and listeners to this show don't need to like follow somebody else's wellness program, but you should figure it out for yourself and go for it both professionally and as and personally. What do you do when the voice in your head is serving up really shitty uh undermining thoughts? That is when I'm usually depleted and I I didn't even realize it.

It normally happens when I'm on a book tour. Funnily enough, more microphones, more lights, and I'm just like, h behind the scenes I feel like a terrible person just cuz I'm depleted. Um that's when I truly go back to basics basics like how much have you slept? are you fueling? How do do you need, you know, a therapy session? These are things that are very real conversations and I have a little checklist. So, I I affectionately call it my superhero toolkit and they're basics. They're are things that I'm sure that you've talked about on this podcast hundreds of times.

But when we are in the throws of it and cortisol is high and it feels like our body is foreign to us, they're the last thing that we want to do. It's like, okay, yeah, eye roll. Like, yeah, I'm supposed to drink a glass of lemon water. Give me a freaking break. The world is crumbling. Um, but sometimes it it really is that simple. So, for you, the there are moments when you're on a book tour and everybody's asking you questions. Well, most recently, most recently, the last time I felt that way was on my book tour.

Um, just because it it was a schedule schedule schedule that's usually later for me. It involves travel. I just had to adapt to the demands of those few weeks. Um, but for me that that I could tell that I was misaligned. misaligned. misaligned. Did Were you having kind of imposture thoughts? thoughts? thoughts? I would say more so not imposter thoughts, but I would say more so having moments where I was judging myself like you should be giving them more. You should be a more expansive performative version of this because they expected more.

Um, and just feeling maybe I guess a little bit of imposter but not imposter and like I don't I shouldn't be here. More so like impostor like did that represent who you wanted to be in this appearance this appearance this appearance or what other people expected of it? And sometimes I'll like you know somebody you see somebody on a plane and I'm just like oh my god I just I literally just want to sleep. I don't necessarily want to have the fussy hands right now. You know what I mean?

Jazz hands. Jazz hands. Whatever it is, meaning you don't want to put on a show for somebody who's a fan or maybe an acquaintance that you run into on a plane when you're exhausted and you're trying to take care of yourself sometimes. And it's it's that last little bit of like 5% of battery life where I'm acutely aware of public expectations versus my own adapt adaptation energy. And then I feel really guilty, feel bad because I don't want anyone to have a bad interaction with me, right?

And then you get on the toilet. Um, and meaning like uh for me that the a friend of mine talks about this term the toilet vortex where you're hard on yourself, take it out on other people, you feel worse about yourself, and then down you go. Y Y Y seems like that sounds familiar. Um, in those moments, I think I've heard you talk about talking to yourself as if you're talking to a different person. Yeah, I think psychological distancing really helps. I've played with self-t talk a ton um in the first person.

I used to have a lot of mantras in the first person like I am strong, I am capable, and that is pretty good for me pre-race, but when I'm physically uncomfortable, I actually find you works better. So, actually just this morning, I was doing a rowing session that was pretty grueling. It's actually called death by row. So, uh, into it what you will there. And towards the end, it got pretty gnarly. And I I didn't gravitate towards the I statements. I gravitated towards the U statements.

And I imagined that it were that there were, you know, folks telling me that who I really respected, who I've trained with before, and that psychological distancing takes me out of the physical pain and back into like what are you capable if capable of in this moment? I find this stuff personally just endlessly fascinating. Um, psychological distancing I I believe was developed by Ethan Cross from the University of Michigan, who's been on the show a bunch of times, about to come on again, who I um who I just think is awesome.

And the idea that you can take this ability that we all have to be a good coach, a good mentor, a good parent, and apply it to yourself in moments when you need it. To me, that's just kind of revolutionary beyond. And I think it's so amazing that it it it once you start to practice it in realw world environments for you, it is absolutely a transferable skill. Like I can take that same, of course, I apply it often in athletic contexts, but you can take that same skill set and apply it when your kids having a tantrum or you're about to, you know, have a tough argument with your spouse or, you know, it it transfers.

Well, uh, you mentioned something earlier about mantras. about mantras. about mantras. How often do you use them? What are they? For me, they are pressure-tested phrases that phrases that phrases that I have created rituals around usually in training. For me, I it's something that I have to repeat and do hundreds of times and really try to anchor it in the desired state. So, I'll give you an example. Before I deadlift, there's like a physical trigger for me. I will actually, this is going to sound really I've actually never told anybody this and it's going to sound so extreme to your audience, but I I will like slap my thighs and stomp the ground and tell myself be here.

And that be here is like be be here, like focus on pulling this bar off the ground. And the physical slapping and stomping um is literally contributing to me bracing my core and breathing in and just being ready. And you might even observe, you know, folk folks will observe like Aaron Judge like throwing dirt before he's going to, you know, do do something specific on the ball field. And like a lot of athletes have these sequences. Um for me, it involves both physical and and mantra-based.

So, a statement it doesn't seem honestly that extreme to me. First of all, be here is going to resonate with every meditator everywhere. Um, second, um, the the stomping the ground kind of reminds me of like ever seen those uh the indigenous folks from New Zealand, the Mauy, they do these kind of like dances. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. That's what comes to mind when I hear you describe it. Yeah. And there actually is something so guttural like ancestral about and you're and I'm wearing lifting shoes so they're they have a hard soul and they when they connect with the ground I imagine it's almost like a tap shoe like it's like you're here.

So I hear that and I'm like let's freaking rock and roll. That seems scalable to lots of activities in life. Be here. Like I got to go have a hard conversation. Be here. Um whatever. And it also helps with the catastrophizing of like, well, what if this happens and then what if this happens and what if I? It's just like, be here. What are you going to control? Go do it. I was freaking out recently and I was uh I don't know. I was just kind of in a spiral on something.

And uh my wife said, "You should call uh Joseph Goldstein, who's my meditation teacher, which I recognize is super privileged that I can call this guy." And I did call the guy. And we're talking about something he that the Dalai Lama once said, which is that if you if there's something you can do about the problem, there's nothing to worry about, right? You should just do the thing. And if there's nothing you can do about the problem, there's also nothing to worry about. And that I'd heard that a million times.

It never really resonated with me because I'm so attached to worry as a MO um which has not served me well honestly. uh or maybe has sometimes served me well, but usually tips over into stupidity. Now though, I'm realizing like just break the problem into manageable parts. And if there's nothing to do about it, just write it off. I find that the the paralysis of worry worry worry feels like it's productive. I'm so actionoriented or to a fault perhaps that worry doesn't stand a chance. I truly use action as the antidote to those feelings of of anxiety.

Yes. As often I didn't coin this phrase but I often say action absorbs anxiety. I also often fail to live up to it because I will I will get stuck in the paralysis paralysis paralysis or or the loop or something. The loop. Yes. Couple other questions about aspects of inner talk that I've heard you talk about. Um, one thing I've heard you say is using jealousy as data. Like there's a kind of like there's a way we can co-opt our jealousy. Absolutely. You should notice when you have those moments of h I wish I had that.

And I don't mean like I wish I had that person's, you know what, bag or shoes or whatever. It's more I think it's more when you're observing a family construct or a social environment or or or an aptitude for something. You know, you see somebody who's effervescent and social and you're like, "Oh, I wish I wish I could be like him. I wish I could be like her." And at least that's how when I observe it in myself when I see folks with qualities that I wish I had or life aspects of their life, work life, social life or personal life that I wish I had.

And I really used to feel this when I was practicing law and I would notice friends who were perhaps in more creative fields and they had more control over their time or would I, you know, this is all perception. I perceived them to have not a care in the world and they could, you know, go to, you know, read for 90 minutes on a Tuesday if they wanted. And I really craved that freedom. And instead of shutting that down, I actually used I observed for a few years when I was planning to leave law, I I actually observed those moments.

And then I use them to help paint the picture of where I wanted to land. Even if I didn't necessarily have the path to get there yet, I knew how I wanted to wanted to feel because I was jealous of other folks who I perceived to be already feeling that or experiencing those things. things. things. Yeah. So instead of getting stuck in useless, unhealthy jealousy, you were like, "Oh, no. This is pointing me where I need to go." Correct. And I do think it's a clue.

And especially if it happens more than once. I I think that's your intuition. The whispers that we hear are often the biggest clues that we ignore. And I think when we're thinking about passion and create, you know, find your passion. I mean, the I I believe that the success leaves clues and whispers. and it's up to you whether you're going to go all in or not. Related to jealousy as data. Um I think you've also talked about this idea of like why not me. I ask myself that and journal about it every month probably every every quarter for sure when I'm doing my vision board.

Say more about what what that means. Well, I think that we often view greatness and achievement as other and we are absorbing and inheriting lots of historical context of what we are capable of. And I especially think I don't know as a mom, as someone in their 40s, it's for sure changing a lot of those narratives that I feel like I've inherited. But inherited. But inherited. But when one feels stuck, I think that's a very helpful question to ask. Why not you to get unstuck? Why not you to become that person that has never done that thing?

Um, again, a lot of sports analogies because that's where my what my world is. But, you know, you've got two people just broke world records at the London Marathon, you know, getting sub 2 hours. Why not them, right? Okay. And now there's going to be a cascade of folks who do that because they that broke that bubble of potential. And that's an extreme example, right? Like the top of a sport in human history. But we can scale that and make it apply to our everyday lives.

And I think the goal setting, anytime we're goal setting, that has to be a central question. Why not you? I'm curious, just personally curious listening to you talk about your goal setting, vision board, striving for greatness, like what's what's on there now? Like what do you what are your goals? goals? goals? That's interesting because I just released um if you would have asked me this a year and a half ago when I was creating my cookbook, it would have been my cookbook cuz I thought, "Oh my gosh, there's no way as somebody who's not a classically trained chef, I'm going to be able to have a cookbook that is received and it's vegan, right?

It's a plant-based cookbook." It felt like the little engine they could and it did make the the New York Times bestseller list. And I was so deeply proud of that because I didn't think it was possible at all. Like I was like just there's just no chance. And that's okay. I'm going to I I poured so much love into that project not thinking it was going to get some, you know, button of achievement on the other side. I genuinely did it because I wanted to bring folks into my home and into my kitchen and my and my point of view on fueling intentionally as a plant-based athlete.

Um, now for this year I am giving myself the freedom of not having a short list of I got to do this and I got to do that. You know, there are unscripted projects that I want to pursue. I, you know, my husband and I have a have a media company, Swagger Studios, and we have some seeds that we're planting. I always want to continue expanding into the lifestyle space, beauty, fashion, but it's not like I think that you have to let things breathe. And I think I want to pursue things out of hunger, not thirst.

And And And I'm just waiting for a few pangs of hunger. hunger. hunger. It's admirable in my view that you can wait instead of just hurling yourself into the next thing because there has to be a next thing. I'm so aware of energy as currency, my own energy as currency. And I the and the projects that I work on now, I want them to really reflect that. Hell yes. And if I'm just going into the next thing of like, oh, okay, well, I'm an author now, so now I should do this or now I'm in I wrote a cookbook, so shouldn't I do this?

And it's like, wait, do I want to? Do the world want me to? Like, what are we? And that pressure I actually think don't people don't talk enough about the pressure of creating the next hit because success can be just as intimidating as getting to that first successful point. and I'm just going to reclaim my agency back and do it on my terms. terms. terms. Meaning just you don't feel like every next thing you do has to succeed just because you've succeeded in the past. You're willing to do things that might be out of the box or not guaranteed to succeed because that's what you want to do.

do. do. Correct. Or and especially in environments, industries, verticals where where where I'm not expected to be there and it's like but I am so hi I think a lot of people listening to this might be like, you know, where does where do you get the the courage to do that because yeah, I uh I think a lot of us struggle with, you know, just finding the audacity. I do think some of that comes from my parents. I they both have pretty audacious stories. I'm a first generation Latina.

My dad was born in Puerto Rico and grew up in the Bronx. My mom is a Cuban refugee born in Kuba and came over um in her teenage years not speaking a lick of English. And so their stories are really when I think about their stories and I hear them tell it like how dare I not like truly and I my kids better be audacious. Like I didn't work this hard for them to cower in the corner. Like you better find your thing. I think that that I walk into rooms with a straight spine because I genuinely think I have a thousand abas behind me being like, "We didn't go through all that for you to cower in the corner." And even if the energy, you know, of my kids, for example, is softer, is subtler, is, you know, it doesn't have to be loud, but it's got to be yours.

It's interesting this I this thousand abuelas thing. Um, because I think I've heard you say it in rides. I think about it all the time. I think the old me who was nihilistically skeptical and sarcastic, I'm still a lot of that. Um, but I think that idea of like conjuring your ancestors might I might not have groed it, but now I I really do. The idea that I mean my my family tree is actually not super dignified. Lots of um depressed, anxious people um who um you know like one of my ancestors was a deserter from the Civil War.

Um, so I don't know that how much I strength I generate necessarily from all of my ancestors, but the idea that that you do have a wind at your at your sales and there are a lot of actual people in my ancestral line who did amazing things and it's not that they're nec not necessarily that I have a metaphysical belief that they're here with me right now, but I can conjure them to produce a tailwind. tailwind. tailwind. I think that's kind of what you're pointing at.

Well, I mean, I do have spiritual beliefs that they, you know, kind of are around me and I see signs of it, but I choose to see signs of it. But even if you don't, it's not necessarily that for me that I look back and all of them were perfect icons and, you know, they were, you know, written into the history books. I actually think in some ways I'm doing things differently and I'm breaking ancestral curses and lines and that they're looking at me being like, "Yeah, exactly." that because you stepped into your purpose and like folks who follow me in my lineage are going to be like, "Yeah, I did it differently because she messed up in that way and here we are." And I actually think that that's a beautiful thing.

I mean, I I guess I don't have faith metaphysically. You know, I I can't pound the table and say my grandpa Sam is in this room right now. Well, this isn't going to be a medium reading. Don't worry. I've done that on this show. I have. But actually in part doing um having a medium on the show and knowing people in my life who I do take seriously who do take that seriously. It hasn't imbued in me some sort of dogmatic belief that it's true but it's a kind of openness to like yeah okay so if grandpa Sam who was a lovely man but flawed and I think cut off a few of his fingers to avoid going to World War II um and like used to have bouts of depression and was unable to get out of the bed.

uh he did the best he could in the circumstances in which he uh came up in a viciously anti-semitic uh America in the 1920s and 30s and 40s and he and a patriarchal not very psychologically oriented society with a guy who was clearly neurode divergent. um he did his best and so the best version of him is on the other side maybe if you want to say that cheering me on thinking okay this guy has is doing a better job and had more resources resources resources yeah and what's what's the harm in that I guess that's where I approach it like if it helps me go into a business meeting and ask for more money good if I'm able to speak a truth that resonates to somebody at Pelaton and then they walk into you know their business meeting with more confidence good.

And I know that I'm here to light fires in people's lives and that makes me really proud to contribute to that energy. Like, somebody needs a friend in the group chat that's going to be writing in all caps. And guess what? That's me. You always know when Robin has entered the chat cuz it's caps lock. At least one one or two exclamation points. points. points. I I imagine you using a lot of emojis too, like fire emojis. I do. I do, but I like to I don't I do not like the trend of being grammatically incorrect.

grammatically incorrect. grammatically incorrect. I have I use punctuation, which probably really dates me as as a elder millennial, millennial, millennial, right? Well, I'm even as established older than that, I cannot stand misspelling and especially in an era of like autocorrect like we should be able to get this right. A word from eight sleep before we get back to Robin. For anybody working on habit formation, the hardest part of any habit is showing up every day, especially the ones with no immediate payoff. Sleep can be the worst offender in this regard.

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The system runs itself and every morning you get a clean read on how you actually slept which makes the invisible habit visible and the way they report it is very elegant. It's on an app on your phone as mentioned. You don't have to wear anything. It just tracks it for you right there on your phone and it really gives you a sense of how you're doing so that you can make better decisions and get better sleep. and the fact that it cools your body down and then actually if you set it the right way will warm you back up in the morning.

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Okay, the last bucket of questions I have for you is about motivation. Um, one of your arguments is that motivation is not a prerequisite for action. Like the action can precede the motivation. Can you just say more about that? I mean, I'll say much more. I think motivation is absolute nonsense. I think that we are feel entitled to motivation and we really, really need to reccalibrate that. We feel like we're going to have this this this overwhelming emotion or state of being of feeling motivated to take action when it's the action that creates the momentum and it's the momentum that creates the feeling of motivation.

And sometimes that that motivation never comes. Sometimes you are going through the motions and it and that feeling of motivation never comes. And I experience that all the time in my own workouts. And as somebody who does that professionally for a living, I can assure you that waiting for the feeling of motivation, you're you're likely going to be stuck. Um so you have to start anyway. start anyway. start anyway. I I mentioned Joseph Goldstein earlier, my meditation teacher who's been a massive impact on me, who has had a massive impact on me.

He has he teaches in these little expressions these kind of pathy phrases and one of them is effort creates energy. Love that. And I mean it's scientifically true I think and we I hear the motivation myth most often from folks who haven't even tried yet or tried for a week. You know, um, especially in a movement context, tried for a week, tried for two weeks, and then they fall off. It's like, what would happen if you stopped giving up? You wouldn't be waiting for motivation. Let's talk about a movement context because exercise is this thorny area for many people.

They just like just can't get their [ __ ] together to do it. And I I don't have that problem. For me, um, if I don't do it, the stakes are so high because I'll just get depressed and anxious. And so, like, I know that I need to do it. So I don't have struggle with motivation, but I have a lot of sympathy for people who do struggle with that motivation. So what would you say? What do you say to the thousands of people who come up to you and say like, "Yeah, I I love you on Pelaton, but I just can't get my ass on the bike or my feet on the tread." Practically, how do you do it if you don't have the motivation?

Lower the barrier to entry. Instead of telling yourself it has to be whatever you perceived it, a 60 minute tough thing or even a 30 minute, you know, moderately tough thing, make it five. I would rather see somebody do get back like create less breaks in the chain. And for me personally, I don't have more than two breaks in the chain. I haven't taken, you know, more than two days off, you know, except for the, you know, birth of my two kids. And that's because I' I lower the bar barrier to entry.

I'm not asking folks to, you know, leap onto a tall building. It's like, can you jump onto a shoe box? Probably most days. And liberating ourselves from the preconceived notion of what a quality workout looks like. Um, encourage folks to create a minimum a minimally viable movement practice that they can do on most days. And when folks are goal setting, you know, they say, "I'm going to be the 5:00 a.m. workout person," but they're doing it like at 7:00 p.m. over cocktails and dinner, and they feel great.

Like, do set your alarm at 4:30 in the morning on Monday and then decide what the goal is going to be. Like, make the goal when you're in the state with the potential barriers to, you know, with the potential friction. friction. friction. This thing you said about lowering the bar, and as you know, there's a lot of evidence for this. the there's tons of research around like what works in habit formation and and h we should say from the jump habit formation is diabolically difficult. the I think skeleton key for all of this that unlocks it is exactly what you said do it sometimes people recommend for running for example just start by putting your shoes near the door uh or go around the block uh with meditation I often say start with one minute and just just and and also dailyish doesn't have to be every day but don't as you say don't miss two days in a row this mixture of um structure with doability with doability with doability is I think and the evidence seems to support this the route to establishing an abiding habit.

Yeah. Like don't let perfectionism enter the conversation because that's when you give yourself the out and then it becomes oh well I didn't do any of this in the ways that I the exact perfect way that I envisioned so now me let me just throw it all out. It's like no claw back to one, you know, one semblance. What what is what is a shade of what you were trying to paint with? Like that I would like to see people do more often. What are your thoughts on the fresh start effect?

The the idea that we can harness the power of Mondays or a new year or a new month or a birthday to get ourselves moving. ourselves moving. ourselves moving. Use it and then plan for the messy middle using Monday as the example. you use it like when like when you feel motivated when you have that fresh start when it's Monday when it's January 1st when it's your birthday use it but plan the schedule and the routine for the Wednesday Wednesday at 3 p.m. when you know you are not going to feel great and make that the basis of your practice and what can you know I will I will leave notes for myself like I will write things in my notes app and actually paste them into my calendar for the days that I know it's going to be like you're not going to want to um and and that like plan for it plan to plan to not feel like it instead of pretending like you're always going to feel like it a couple a couple a couple Much of what you just said is also backed up by the evidence.

One of the other conclusions that kind of comes screaming out of the data around uh the research into behavior change as I understand it is flexibility is really important like planning for the messy middle in a way that like okay you you might feel like [ __ ] so maybe that's the day that you're going to do less and so you uh you have this um elasticity in the system that allows you to succeed in a lasting way. And then the other thing is, and we've talked about this earlier, but self-compassion or positive self-t talk, having an inner coach instead of an inner drill sergeant is a great way to keep yourself motivated without burning yourself out.

The elasticity piece of it is so beautiful because it also takes into account these elements of burnout that we were talking about. Like you might have the time to do what you planned in terms of movement, but your nervous system might be on the fritz. Like women hormonally like might be going through a lot like your kids might have been up. You're, you know, you don't know what life is going to throw at you, but that minimum viable link in the chain goes a long way into bridging towards the identity of someone who keeps the promises they make to themselves.

And I think that that is is worth the effort. I have worked my way through my voluminous list of questions for you. Um, what did I miss? anything anything you were hoping to talk about or would like to talk about uh that we didn't get to? Like what's on your mind these days that we didn't that I didn't ask you about? about? about? Well, what is on my mind lately is using breath. I'm a longtime meditator and now I'm exploring ways in which breath work can more easily get me into different desired states.

So it's not just necessarily the mantra or the slapping of the thigh but it's like how can I train myself through different breath work to get into what I know is you know I know if I get into my you know start saying my mantra and it's a vadic meditation practice like I can be in that state pretty quickly now and it's like okay like how can I have a cheat code into different desired states and especially as a parent um kind of using the physicality of parenting to be a better parent.

I think you have toddlers. I have a todd a 5-year-old and a 2-year-old. 2-year-old. 2-year-old. Okay. So, a toddler and a kindergartener. Um, and you're being pulled in two different directions simultaneously by two uh little uh rugrats. And um maybe you're losing your patience, maybe you're tired, whatever. In a moment like that, you can do kind of like breath work, like free range breath work. breath work. breath work. Yeah. But also, it's the other way. It's if I'm get home and I'm tired and I can use breath work to like oxygenate and maybe similar to like a Wimhof or something type of method that people might be familiar with.

I'm sure people are familiar with to give them the 20 minutes they just want with me on the floor. And that's where my mind has been going lately is like how I spend so much time training for races. It's like how can I make this applicable to make create more meaning in the moments that matter for me and that's having energy you know for my kids. How does the breath work work? So usually I mean I'm still figuring out a process around it but um if my husband is home or if our nanny is home it's like me going into my into the bedroom for 10 minutes to like try to lie down and do more like breath of fire type stuff and then coming out and and and having a little bit more energy for for them.

I don't actually know what breath of fire is. So, I think it's I mean I think it's like a yoga a yogic practice where I mean you're essentially like I'm like by the end of it I'm like literally sweating. I I don't know. I couldn't explain it to you cuz I have to bring up videos and stuff to actually do it. But it's energizing. Let's just say that. I uh was talking to my shrink the other day uh and he was recommending um I think it's 478 breathing uh developed by this guy Dr.

Andrew while um who I don't know Andrew uh you you should come on the show. Um where you it's an inhale count of four hold for 7 seconds and then breathe out through your mouth with your tongue behind your front teeth. Mhm. Mhm. Mhm. And you just do that a bunch of times and apparently it kind of like uh resets your nervous system. That's kind of a calming Yeah. I think it's a calming thing. So wouldn't it's it sounds like it'd be quite difficult. Well, listen, there are a lot of paths to it and I think that's what's so cool and that's just where my curiosity is right now.

Can you be teaching Pelaton in say 20 years? years? years? Yeah, because I plan to be a 90-year-old BDY being able to deadlift my husband and you're welcome to join me. Can you deadlift him now? Yes, more than him. More than more. I could deadlift him. Plus, have you actually deadlifted him? I wouldn't subject him to that, but his his equivalent in weight is kind of where the joke came from. Got it. Okay. Yeah, I'm sure my my wife would like to do a lot of things to me, but probably not that.

Listen, I want I really do um we're all steeped in the longevity game right now and how we want to play it is up to us, but I think Pelaton is a pioneer and a leader in the space in making it accessible and efficient and we're increasingly informing ourselves as instructors. Um I'm as head instructor and with the team of of training specialists, we're really trying to marry the technology with stuff that makes sense in people's lives. and you're not going anywhere. I'm glad to hear that cuz I use it all the time.

Can you also just remind everybody of the names of your books and also your podcast? Yes. So, my podcast is Project Swagger. Uh your weekly transformation toolkit in 30 minutes or less. My most recent book is Eat to Hustle. It's a plant-based proteinpacked proteinpacked proteinpacked cookbook directly from my kitchen um with recipes that I have pressure tested uh over 12 years of being a plant-based athlete. I have two children's books, Strong Baby and Strong Mama, with a lot of the values that you've heard today. And I have a journal called Welcome Hustler with prompts that I used to transition from law to wellness.

And my very first book first book was Shut Up and Run, um, which is a running manual. Robin, Robin, Robin, yes. yes. yes. Thank you. Thank you. Appreciate it. Appreciate it. Appreciate it. Here's a question I've been sitting with. Why do so many people feel like their body is working against them, carrying tension? and they can't shake, running low on energy no matter how much they sleep, getting hit by mental fog at inconvenient moments. Our sponsor by Optimizers makes the case that for a lot of people, part of the answer is a nutrient gap, specifically magnesium.

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10% Happier is produced by Tara Anderson and Eleanor Vasil. Our recording and engineering is handled by the great folks over at Pod People. Lauren Smith is our managing producer. Marissa Schneiderman is our senior producer. DJ Cashmir is our executive producer. and Nick Thorburn of the band Islands wrote our theme. Also, one last thing before you go, remember to sign up for my app, which is called 10% with Dan Harris. You can sign up for the app over on danh harris.com. On the app, you will find a growing library of meditations from many of the world's greatest meditation teachers.

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