Why People Quit Personal Trainers (And Whether AI Can Replace Them)| Mind Pump 2846

Key Takeaway

The most valuable thing you get from a personal trainer isn't information—it's the human relationship. A good trainer reads your mood, effort, and attitude beyond the data. They know when to push harder despite what your metrics say, or pull back when the numbers look good but you need rest. They adjust not just exercises, but your entire approach to fitness based on real-time observation and years of experience working with people. This personalized coaching—the conversations between sets about stress, sleep, and meal prep—creates sustainable behavior change that no AI can replicate.

Episode Overview

This episode explores the six main reasons people stop working with personal trainers and examines whether AI can replace human coaching. The hosts argue that while AI can provide information and workouts, it fundamentally cannot replace the human connection, behavioral coaching, and real-time adaptability that makes personal training effective for long-term fitness success.

Full Transcript

Transcript of Why People Quit Personal Trainers (And Whether AI Can Replace Them)| Mind Pump 2846 from Mind Pump Show. Auto-generated from episode audio; may contain minor errors.

The most effective thing you could do for your health and fitness if you have goals, if you want to lose body fat, you want to get stronger, or if you just want to make fitness something that you do for the rest of your life, is hire a good personal trainer. But people sometimes, often times, stop working with their trainers. We're going to give you the six reasons why they stop doing it. In fact, I'm going to ask my co-host here about that and if AI is a good substitute.

substitute. substitute. Yeah. So what we did is we looked up our team looked up the top six reasons why people stop working with a trainer. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And the AI angle is coming up more and more now. I think it's coming up more and more for a lot of um different places um different occupations. And so the question is coming up now even for fitness uh with AI and if it's going to play a role in any of this stuff. So what I'm going to do is I'm going to go through some of these reasons um we could talk about a little bit and then see like will AI actually be a solution to some of these reasons.

Okay. Okay. Okay. So the first one um is and this this definitely I would say has got to be the top reason why someone doesn't work with a trainer or stops working with a trainer. Um they say it's too expensive. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Cost too much money. Yeah. This is most most common objection and uh reason I think that was was has always been this and I also think that the people that don't even end up getting a personal trainer that are using AI this would be their reason too.

I look when I look at my family my family my family who I am aware of that uses AI to help coach them through their workouts ironically. ironically. ironically. Um Um Um your family your family your family yeah yeah yeah to be a profit in your hometown. So, we do have a free podcast. So, uh, and they do they they use, uh, but I have some interesting cool stories about that because several of them have and then eventually came back to asking help, uh, from me about that.

And so, it does kind of solve that, right? I mean, it's not expensive to use AI, but the question becomes, is it how comparable is it as far as Sure, it's inexpensive? Yeah, it's free. Yeah. Is it effective? But I would argue that that's not the main value of a coach. coach. coach. No, exactly. So, um I think to start out working with a trainer is expensive in the context of all the things you can pay for in the fitness space, right? What can you pay for?

Like gym membership, supplements, membership, supplements, membership, supplements, uh maybe someone to help you with your diet or whatever. The most expensive to have somebody there uh with you in person a couple days a week. On average, depending on where you live, you're going to pay anywhere between on the low end $50 a session to on the high end, it could be as expensive in some areas over $100, sometimes $120, $130, uh, a session. And so, um, it isn't inexpensive, especially when you compare it to how cheap gym memberships have gotten and and information, how free information is.

But I think uh what the real question, you kind of said this a little bit, Adam, is um what am I getting for the money? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Uh because if I if I know I'm going to get the results I'm looking for, if I know I'm going to get uh sustainable results, if I know it's going to change my life in that way, then I think for a lot of people, the money becomes uh it's worth the money. Right? This is a problem. If if this is going to solve this issue, which is a big issue, this is a hard one for a lot of people.

People struggle with this for for a long time. If it's going to solve this issue, if working with a trainer for six months, months, months, uh, which let's say it cost you, how much would six months of personal training cost you? What could that possibly is that? $3,000, let's say. Yeah. Say Yeah. Say Yeah. Say with 3,000 if $3,000, if I knew $3,000 of working with someone would significantly impact me or solve this challenge that I've been dealing with, I think a lot of people wouldn't think it was expensive.

I think they would see the value in it. Mhm. I think the problem is they compare it to to to other aspects of fitness in which case it's way more expensive. Yeah, it was a lot of watered down versions. Uh if you go back even when we were trainers, this was always like the big challenge to overcome. And so you'd kind of go through the thought process of like, well, do I want to do the buddy up kind of approach? Do I want to do the group sessions?

Um do I want to just coach them from afar and give them like written out workout plans? Um, and you know, and now we have like the virtual versions of that. And there's there's there's lots of different like variations of it. The ideal though being, you know, this personalized one-on-one attention, like somebody that's professional, has predictive knowledge, uh, has very specific, uh, knowledge of how to steer you behaviorally. Uh, I just don't feel like the rest of it really compares to that. I I I I think it's a really I think it's a really good point you're bringing up, Justin.

like this isn't actually a new problem or challenge that we've tried to overcome. overcome. overcome. Like too expensive has been the number one objection forever. And to Justin's point, we've tried a lot of things. Group coaching, small group coaching, virtual coaching, free workouts online, free workouts in magazines, free gym membership. So, we've done a lot of things to to address the too expensive. Yet personal training has remained around and thriving and and well needed for a lot of people. And so I I I don't think the AI brings something for that objection, right?

So I'm curious to hear the other ones because for that one it's like uh it's a bit moot. It is because um if you think that you're hiring a trainer for information, we're starting out uh with the wrong um assumption right out the gates because that's not what you're getting. That's not the value of a good coach. So, a trainer should know exercises and proper technique and form and how to individualize it. That's actually the lowest bar right there, by the way. Like, that's the bottom.

Like, if you don't know that, uh, you have no you shouldn't even apply to be a trainer. So, we need to assume that when we're working with like that's the bottom rung. Uh, in free information has been available for a long time. Uh, AI is new, but Google is not. The internet is not. mag fitness magazines are not so it's not the information I could tell you 100% and you can talk to any good coach or trainer that the one and what I mean by good is the ones that were successful in the sense that their clients were able to develop these this relationship with fitness that they were able to maintain it long term that it really changed their life not just lose 30 pounds but lose it and then keep it off forever.

Was it the information that you gave your clients? Was that what did it? And they're all going to say no. No, no, No, no, No, no, no. It was the guidance. It no. It was the guidance. It was the coaching. It was the being through this going through this process. Well, it'd be like comparing reading Jordan Peterson's book or getting one-on-one counseling with him for three months, months, months, you know, like which one I mean I can obviously read his book. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And understand his philosophy and his belief and his 12 rules on life, right?

But to sit on a one-on-one session with him every hour and let him dig into me and ask me questions where I I mean I think the value and what I get from that is completely different than what I get from picking that book up. No different than somebody who can go online online online prompt chat GBT to spit out a bunch of great information related to diet and exercise and all this stuff. It's like versus a coach who's meeting with you on a on a regular basis who is then going taking all that knowledge that maybe or all that information that the AI could spit out and then customizing it and applying it to and and and and also disregarding things that are irrelevant to that person based on the phase or where they're at.

So let me let me hear the other ones. I'm curious what the Well, I just I'm going to add one more thing. I think um until AI can become human uh and you can develop a a human relationship with them, it'll it's just not going to re and by the way, there are people right now who develop relationships with AI and it's very problematic because AI is a validating machine. Yes, Yes, Yes, a good trainer, reinforcer of bias, is not a validating machine. They'll validate when appropriate and other times they'll they won't and they're also real.

They're human and so you have a real relationship. So, I just uh if you're just looking for information um that that's all that's that's already been there. Uh the next one is uh it's not personalized. This is interesting to me. Um I don't that's kind of what trainers do. So, this must be a bad experience. experience. experience. Well, no. I think that's a I think that's a fair I think this goes back to what I've definitely tried to argue or say many times when we bring up personal training is that there's there still is a smaller percentage of great coaches.

Yeah. Um, I think at at least half or more than half are entry level, non-experienced, non-experienced, non-experienced, you know, fresh out of school, fresh off the certification. the certification. the certification. And I think what makes a really good coach and trainer is somebody who's worked with people for years. And so otherwise, and I know I'm guilty of this, I know I'm guilty the first at least the first couple years of all my clients were doing the same workouts. Yeah. you know, like for sure was uh and then they ask each other, they find out.

Yeah, this still persists like the the chalkboard kind of workout. Um and then uh yeah I think that the limitation of the coach's knowledge but then also too I think that influencers fall in this category of um you know really showing and portraying uh this this healthy image but then they go into the coaching space without really the knowledge of personal training and they give everybody kind of this same carbon copy experience. copy experience. copy experience. Yeah. But let me add a little bit to that because personalization isn't just a unique workout.

I had a lot of clients whose workouts look very similar. That's not the personalization that I think is important. Yeah, definitely. You adjust exercises and technique, but what AI will do is analyze data. Data is important. A personal trainer takes into account things like effort, mood, attitude. attitude. attitude. Uh sometimes the data says one thing, but when you're with your client, you know it's still not the right thing. Sure. Mhm. Sure. Mhm. Sure. Mhm. So, there are many times when the data would have said, uh, my client needs to have a hard workout, but I know them cuz I've been working with them for months or years.

Uh, we're talking like, no, no, what what he needs right now is something totally different. I know he's got good sleep is, but I could tell he's off a bit and it's probably not a good idea. And a good coach will do whereas AI is not going to be able to do this. It won't be able to do this for two reasons. one um it will only be able to work with the information you give. Many times clients don't even give that information. information. information. Yeah.

Yeah. Yeah. The coach's job is to prod or read. Yeah. To to Exactly. to to observe and you know when um you know you can you can press a little more. You can pull back. You have to pull back a bit more. Um and you know the individual is just going to kind of look at it as like this is my plan. I have to stick with this you know hell or high water. you as a coach are like, "This isn't benefiting. I have to like, you know, we have to bring the intensity level down." Uh, and they're not really aware of that.

There are times when I've pushed clients who uh said that they needed an easier workout and they probably would have benefited uh physiologically from maybe like physically from an easier workout, but they were afraid of the intensity. And so I was trying to help them get over the fear. And I didn't overdo it, but it was helping become more comfortable. I've also had the reverse. I've also had the fanatic who's doing everything perfect, and I'm trying to get them to be okay with having the occasional easy workout.

Uh, and so my job is to convince them and coach them through that process. Um, in other words, they're not coming in giving me the data. the data. the data. No. No. No. Uh, this is what I'm reading, uh, as a good coach. And AI won't be able to do that. AI will read your data. So, it might be able to read your heart, your heart rate variability, uh, at some point. It's gonna read your sleep score, maybe a grip strength test. Um, and then you're gonna say, "Tell me what to do." And then you're gonna follow it.

And it's not gonna be able to read what's going on. going on. going on. It's all metrics. It's not going to be Yeah. health and biometrics, but not like a lot of psychology, which is pretty much the majority of coaching most. most. most. Yeah. I Yeah. I would make the case that uh you one of the most valuable things about aside from what you guys already touched on uh you know with modifying the workout is actually the in between sets you know talking about my client and you know managing stress getting better sleep uh educating educating educating yeah uh prepping meals good choices you know like like that's that that's happens during that hour is a lot of conversation of you know I had a really hard time hitting my protein intake ate yesterday.

Oh, well, tell me what you ate. Oh, I ate this and oh, you know what? Try this. This has worked really well for a lot of my clients, you know, or I mean, that's just on the fly while you're working out. There's no metric that there's no no data you're going to plug in to spit off something like that. Um, like it's just so that there's other things outside of the workout to your point that that that that the trainer is going to be able to do.

And again, AI is is not going to be able to or it won't uh look the same, I should say. should say. should say. Yeah. I think for the extremely dedicated, consistent, I'm never missing a workout no matter what. Uh, I'm a high level athlete. I'm already working with a coach. AI data can be great. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. You know, you plug in the data, this is what it says, I'm already training. Strava. Strava. Strava. Well, I was going to say, do you think it's much it's much it's much Straa client?

Straa client? Straa client? Is it much different than Strava or Fitbit or Woo? I mean, is very similar, right? Like an assistant interprets it. Yeah. Like I mean, I I I I have I find um my Aura ring to be extremely beneficial for me. Yeah, you know, because it's just another data point that I can look at. For example, we've I've been talking about my sleep for quite some time. Um, and so I'm constantly tweaking these things and then referring to that and going like, "Oh, okay, that's working or that's not working." And so, but it's not the end all be all for sure.

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Enjoy the rest of the show. Sometimes there's trust, too. like uh a client could come in with all the right measurements. I never used these things, by the way, for this particular reason, but there were a couple times I had clients that were really into data with their Fitbit and all that stuff. Uh I even had a client that would measure heart rate variability before it was even a thing. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And they could come in and all the measurements could look good. Everything says that they're great, but then they tell me, "Listen, man.

I'm not feeling too great." too great." too great." Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. You know what? I'm going to listen to you, John, at this moment. You know, you need to know that I that you tr you can trust me. trust me. trust me. Yeah. You know, and this is just kind of again one of those relationship things. Here's another one. This one's one of my favorites. Uh people cancel because of boring workouts. So, here's what I'm going to say. I I made this mistake as a trainer.

I thought the excitement of the workout, workout, workout, you got to cater to that. Yeah. Was what made things uh effective like the workout is different and razzledazzle and we're hyped and I'm like, "Ah, and you're having fun. We're doing all this new stuff." And today we're going to try something crazy that you've never done before. We're going to restrict your breathing today with a mask. mask. mask. I'm going to tell you something right now. The workouts that I did with my clients in the back half of my career, if you looked at the workouts themselves, you'd be like, "That's the most boring workout I've ever seen in my life." And you know, my clients never missed, showed up all the time.

I mean, that's a lack of education on the trainer right there. Right. So, that's cuz I agree. I was 100% the same way. Um, fell into the trap of trying to dazzle my clients with unique exercises every time they came in. versus this is these are the five these are the five most effective things we can do and we're going to do a lot of it and get really good at it. um you a good like a veteran coach like what you would communicate that right now though like versus the mistake that the young trainer makes is maybe they program some of that in there and then the client goes hey this is boring can we do something else and then the trainer uh okay versus me at the very first time I meet with you this is obviously veteran older version right so it's like hey we're going to do a handful of things and it's going to get boring it's going to feel like this is redundant this and that but trust me this is the most effective way to get to the place that you want to get to if you just trust me.

So, like learning to communicate that early on that you're going to feel bored sometimes with these workouts because they're going to seem like, oh, it's the same stuff all the time, but that's how you get good at those things. And getting good at those things is what's going to render the most results. And that but you know, you're saying this on a podcast, but the I mean, when you're with a listen, here's the deal. If a workout if a client thinks a workout is boring because a trainer is boring.

boring. boring. Yeah. You're thinking, it's their work. Your personality. Listen, I had clients with me for 12 years. never missed. Do you think that they needed me to take them through? Some of these people were like really old, so they couldn't do many other extra many too many exercises. Do you think that they were showing up not knowing knowing knowing what's the new surprise work? You've been with me for 12 years. You know what we're probably going to do, but you love being with me. That's totally true.

I mean, there was like some overcoming that the beginning though, for sure. Because like people come in with expectations. They see all the fancy, you know, P90X workouts and things on TV and they're like, "Where's all this?" It's like, "No, this is what works." And then you literally have to just have conversations with them and be entertaining. And that's the job you have to do. You know what it is is if you're a trainer and you don't want to be there, they're not going to be there, want to be there.

If you love doing, if you love what you're doing, I guarantee they won't feel uh bored. Um and you know uh as far as the workout's concerned like do what's right um and the person will be engaged with you. That's the most important thing. Next up is scheduling issues. I guess this is a real uh a real concern. Um I guess AI is always available. available. available. So at any moment or time I don't know how you would overcome this uh uh with a trainer. I guess if you like your trainer but he can't meet with you anymore then I guess that's a thing.

I don't know. Yeah. No, I mean this is this is a this is a common I mean when you survey a bunch of people and say what are the reasons why you quit? This would obviously come up there. I think we've all seen all seen all seen scheduling conflicts with clients before and it's it's a it's a it's part of the business. Um I don't know how much AI like you said AI is available 24/7. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. But I don't know if that's like if I don't know if it solves the problem because I hate saying this because this sounds very invalidating.

Uh but often times not having enough time isn't really the issue. Now I know some people have more time than other others obviously. Uh but regardless of what your schedule looks like in my experience the people that are successful carve out however much time they can and stay consistent. Yeah. Even if it's just like a brief like one or two days a week where you have like that one little chunk. never had anybody. had anybody. had anybody. Well, even the even the busiest clients I've ever had that actually figured this piece out would tell you they gained all that time back.

And so, of course, so that the the the hurdle is when you are that person, kids, work, you got a ton of stuff on your you got a ton of stuff on your plate that it doesn't seem feasible to me. I know what that I understand that feeling feeling feeling totally. But the reality is if you find a way to make two to three hours out of the week where that's broken up or you know one or two days or whatever but find that time to carve that out for yourself and then you become consistent with that.

What you'll find is you'll get every bit of that time. What? And I think I don't know if I think the studies say like four times that back. Something ridiculous. Productivity. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And so, uh, what you thought you lost, you actually gained because of productivity. And so, but you first have to take that leap of of of figuring that out. out. out. I'll also say this, when it comes to scheduling and time, uh, the least successful strategy with, not saying that you can't be successful this way, it's just really rare.

The least successful strategy with schedule is to do this. do this. do this. I'll work out whenever I find time and then you just go about your week. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. That almost never works. I've seen it work, I think, once with people have a home gym behind. We're very dedicated. Like that doesn't work. What typically works is you you carve out a little bit of time, whatever that looks like. 20 minutes once a week, I don't care. Um and then you make it happen. Um so that that that's where I think the solution is uh with that one.

And then lastly, this one's crazy to me. Um, and uh, this is definitely falls on the trainer, but the last reason, you guys want to know what the last reason is? is? is? Let's see here. We got two sugar. This is the last number six. The trainer doesn't practice what they preach. Yes. Now, this is the trainer's fault. And I don't mean it's because the trainer isn't perfect, but the trainer presented themselves as perfect. That's your fault, dude. You need to tell chastising them and then they see him at Burger King.

Burger King. Burger King. Yeah, dude. You got to be real. First of all, it'll make you a more effective trainer. like uh the wor the least most the most effective trainers are the ones that clients think are like real people that also struggle with diet sometimes that also that also that also uh you know are challenged with that's the most effective but if you present yourself as like this perfect fitness god and then you hammer your client for every little mistake there's no grace which is a terrible strategy the second they see you uh slip up they're like screw you I'm out of here do you think it's more of that or do you think these are people that are judging the trainer because the trainer is not as fit as they they would want this is people cancing their training.

So, they hired them in the first place for a reason. So, I don't think it's I don't think it's that. But, I mean, if we go on that path, uh yeah, if you look really at really at really at maybe that's how cuz imagine you hire somebody and maybe they're not the most jacked jacked jacked Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Greek godlooking trainer, but they're like they look like they're semi fit, but then you start training with them and you realize, oh my god, they eat like crap and this and then it's like and then you're like, okay, I'm not.

So, you think it's more the trainer presenting themselves? I think that's only a problem if the trainer hammers the client for every little mistake they make, hides the fact that they struggle, and then the client finds out. out. out. I think if you're honest, uh especially if you struggle, look, there's people who really struggle with weight, weight, weight, and if they hire a trainer who also struggled with weight, who now maybe has lost a lot of weight, but tells them, "I still struggle with this, man.

This is like, hey, I know you screwed up last night. Listen, I screwed up last week. I know this is really hard." That is a very powerful uh uh and effective relationship building strategy. It works, builds trust, but you sell yourself as something you're not and then your client kind of finds out then you're and you shame them on top of it, they're not going to want to work with you. No, you. No, you. No, it's just not going to happen. So, and AI, I don't know how AI works around that.

I guess what AI is what do they look like? I don't know. You know what I'm saying? How do we fix that? So, yeah. I mean, I think we're finding more and more. I mean, AI is going to be this incredible tool for a lot of reasons, but there's a lot of things that I don't think it's going to replace. I mean, we all agree. Uh, no. Professions that that require human connection. It won't. It won't. No. No. No. No. It'll be a poor substitute. Poor.

Poor. Poor. It'll be really poor substitute. The day that AI replaces humans for human connection, we have way bigger problems than problems than problems than Sure. not having jobs. Like way bigger problems at that point. Hey, you uh you referenced P90X. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Did you see? Uhuh. They're reviving that. that. that. No, they're not. Yes, they are. Doug, Google Google uh uh P90X P90X P90X had like big health problems right there for a minute. So, I don't know who they're they're using a different model.

Yeah, it's a And I And uh but I just saw this that uh P90X Revival. Wow. Wow. Wow. Um Um Um see what it seems. Trying to make a comeback. Yeah. Wow. Yeah. Wow. Yeah. Wow. Getting marketed by Mind Pump. Yeah, I know. The first thing that came up. up. up. I like that. You already bought everything though. Uh, so it's called P90X Generation Next. Oh, so it launched on February 3rd. I didn't even know that. See, see, show me the Show me the image. Yeah.

Yeah. Yeah. Wait, hold on. Oh, god. Here we go. Just interesting. They brought they they're going to be able to revive this, huh? huh? huh? Well, I mean, it sold a lot. Yeah, Yeah, Yeah, it's it's a name. Yeah, it's a household name because of all money they put Maybe that I mean is that true that maybe they they sold so many millions of copies that even the you know hundreds of thousands of people that have moved on and like this Beach Body is is whack is going going going there's there's still I wonder what there's still hundreds of thousands more that will be like I've been waiting for the new generation of P90X they still got the flag in their garage.

Listen I'm going to just read I'm just going to read some of the their training pillars cuz I want you guys just to be okay. All right. I'm already reading it right now and inside my body I feel I feel bristling. feel bristling. feel bristling. Uh so there's there's three core modalities training uh pillars. There's metabolic overload. metabolic overload. metabolic overload. Metabolic overload Metabolic overload Metabolic overload strength and power moves with minimal rest to build muscle cardio. You won't build muscle doing that. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

There's neuroperformance neuro neuro drills for coordination, reaction time, and speed. and speed. and speed. More cardio active. Keep going. Keep going. active recovery, purposeful mobility and flexibility for purpose. purpose. purpose. Moving while you're supposed to be resting, resting, resting, more cardio. more cardio. more cardio. Yeah. Got it. So, our three Where's the muscle confusion? That was like their whole thing. I want to be confused. confused. confused. You know, you know what it is? Is it's three modes of different cardio to confuse your muscle. Yeah. 30 to 45 minutes a day for seven days a week.

Oh my god. Of intense training. Oh, 45. Okay. 45. Okay. 45. Okay. Hey, you guys haven't even What are they selling it for? Can we Can we look up how What's the pitch? Let's see here. Hey, you guys, I started this new program. I'm losing weight. It's crazy. Really? What are you doing? Going crazy. 7 days a week. I only 10 bucks a month. Oh, it's monthly. You got to pay monthly. 145 workouts total. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Holy moly. That's a lot of workouts. workout. workout.

workout. Well, they got seven days to fill, so yeah, they got to be I mean, talk about I mean, a great transition from our conversation we're just having. You know, talk about uh you know, just doing a bunch of creative [ __ ] for your clients. You know what I'm saying? Put together 145. I'll tell you this. AI is better than that. that. that. Yeah, Yeah, Yeah, it's on I think it's on par. AI is Well, it's better. It's cheaper. AI is free. I mean, they might have used AI to build.

build. build. That's what I mean. She's run by AI. You can go on your AI right now and be like, I want a 30 to 45 minute non-stop moving workout for 145 days. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Different workouts every day. Done. Free. Free. Free. Just say, "Hey, I'm ready. I just saved you." you." you." Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. You know, 50 bucks or whatever. Hardcore yoga. Just throw that in there. You know, You know, You know, you know, the hardest part about the biggest challenge for the consumer, uh, because I I think AI could be a great tool.

I use AI all the time. U, we use it within the business is, uh, the prompting piece. prompting piece. prompting piece. because if you don't know how to to prompt it correctly for you as a client what to ask yeah what to ask it uh that that's the part that would be challenging like my okay so my both my brother-in-laws were using AI uh for for this stuff and uh you know when they when they showed me what they had I was like okay that's pretty decent it's a good generic workout and kind of plan for you but like when I sat down with them like we spent like an hour on the on the phone talking and it was just like I'm asking all these questions and I go, "Oh, okay.

This is where I want you to start. This I want you to do and here's the things I want you to focus on and don't do this and don't do that." And he's just like, "What? That's all like different." It's like, "Well, yeah, because because you told me this and you told me that, right?" So, I know I if I knew all that information about him ahead of time, I could then go to a prompt and go, "Hey, spit me off a workout based off of somebody who who has this issue, has only been training for this long, can only do this, is eating this many." If I knew, if I was prompting the AI, I could have gave him a better setup than what he got.

But since he as a consumer doesn't know better, he just goes, I want to get in shape. shape. shape. Yeah. If you have a coach brain that can ask ask ask effectively. So that's the problem here is that like someone's going to make the argument that, oh, you can totally I'm sure we have a listener who's a trainer. Our coach is like, oh, I definitely think you can use it. It's like, yeah, that's your trainer brain that knows how to prompt it. And so that but the problem's going to be people won't know.

won't know. won't know. They don't know what they don't know. So they don't know what to ask. I have a good example of that, dude. It's kind of it's related. But even then they're like, "Oh, do you feel like you can keep going? Keep going." going." going." Yeah. It's AI. I had I my cousin uh this was last uh this was months ago. He had these we this really weird uh like back pain. His back was hurting, then his shoulder was hurting. He was so he was in so much like like upper midback pain, low back pain, shoulder pain.

He had to stop training jiu-jitsu. Couldn't figure out what was going on. Went to the doctor like, "Oh, maybe you got injured while you were training." And it was just, this was like two months of just so much pain he had to take like medication to sleep and was doing massage and went to the chiropractor and the doctors were like, "With must be your training. Maybe you need a time off. Maybe you got an injury. They did imaging. Couldn't figure out what was going on." So, he came and was telling me about this.

And this goes to your point about knowing what to ask. Yeah. So, him and I are talking and uh and I'm just randomly I'm thinking to myself, I'm like, "Wait, didn't you say a couple months ago your kids had like this random fever and then they had kind of like a little rash?" And he goes, "Yeah." And I'm like, "I wonder if any of those childhood diseases because there's these diseases that kids get that we become immune to when we get them and then when we're adults, we don't get them anymore." But sometimes you don't you never get it.

it. it. You never got it. And so you so as example, you get it really bad as an adult. adult. adult. It's different symptoms. So I said, "What what did your kids have?" And so we I started asking him questions. I'm like, "Bro, I think" And I said, "Didn't you get kind of sick?" He's like, "Yeah, it was mild." So I looked it up and uh I said, "I think this is what you got." And I looked up the symptoms of what it is for an adult and it looks like severe arthritis throughout your whole body.

And that was what it was. He brought it to the doctor and the doctor was like, "Oh yeah." But had we not know what to ask? This poor guy was freaking out. He's like, "Am I dying?" Oh wow. He's very active, fit guy, but nobody knew what to ask. There was no He didn't know to He didn't know the two could be connected. It's like he went to the doctor, said, "Hey, I've got all this back pain." He does jiu-jitsu and he works out. That's what he thinks is going on.

He doesn't think, "Oh, yeah, my kids had a fever." a fever." a fever." Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Do you think there's a connection? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. You know, so it's like if you don't know what to ask or what to connect, you're your information is only going to be as good as what you That's exactly right. Then I think that's going to be the biggest hurdle with people that are trying to use it is that they won't know what to ask it or prompt it. prompt it.

prompt it. And it's going to be tough and and it's going to require a a good coach or to a trainer to do that, you know. So I got to tell you guys about my my daughter, my three-year-old. I I I almost filmed it. I didn't uh because I like if she sees me filming this, it won't be good. But she threw this She's so dramatic, dude. She threw this just the most. So, she's been having these like little tantrums with uh with Jessica, and I haven't seen the big ones yet.

So, you know, praise God, he's been, you know, saving me from these, but I haven't seen any of them yet. But I've seen some of the some I've gotten a little taste of just the drama that happens. And so, uh, with toddlers, they call them terrible twos. Threes, you talk to any parent, threes and fours can sometimes be worse. And so she's in this stage now where she's like defiant and like you could try to discipline her and she'll just oneup you. Like you could you could even be like look if you don't do if you if you don't stop doing that thing I'm going to throw away your toy.

She'll take the toy and throw it away herself and then continue to like she'll one up you and you're like what do I do? Anyway, Anyway, Anyway, we were all hanging out and it was just me and the two little ones and I'm like hey guys all right let's clean up the playroom and then we get to we'll watch this movie and so they're all excited. So they all did that and then there was one one toy little toy that was on the floor in the hallway 10 ft from her room and it was her toy.

So every they're all done. Everybody's happy. High five. I'm like oh hey Dalia one more toy. Get that and put it in your room. Uh no I don't want. I said it's one. It's one toy. Just pick it up. Put I said honey we're not going to watch we're not going to do the thing unless you pick that up and bring it to your room. She gets on the floor. She grabs it and army crawls so slowly to her room while going I don't want to do like she's in pain, bro.

It takes her 15 minutes, goes in a room and then she army crawls back on her back. So she's sliding back on her back. Ah, flopping around the whole time. I'm like, "Wow, dude. This is amazing." Right. Without it was like 20 minutes, dude. When does Jessica let you know like on a scale of 1 to 10 what that is rated to what she seen? I know that honey that's like a three just so you know for sure. She's like that's a three. You haven't seen a nine or a 10 yet?

No. No. No. She She's so much like my older daughter. My older daughter was little. She would throw these tantrums. I remember thinking like there was one time I had to get her in a car seat and she wouldn't get in her car seat and she was three maybe and she would stiffen her body so I couldn't get her in the seat. So, I had to physically use my strength to push her and lock it in. And she freaked out so much. She took her shoe off.

She threw it at her mom. And I remember like remember like remember like if we had a way to capture this energy, this would be like we could power it. Oh, yeah. You could power city, dude. So much. I had that same thing like Everett. It was totally different cuz you think like the car is that's your safe haven. That's like where you you drive around the block and they're going to go to sleep and everything's going to be great. And every time we'd go to put them in, it was like you were putting them in a straight jacket.

Dude, some kids are like that. Some kids love it. Some kids hate it. Swinging at me, screaming, and I'm like, "Oh my god." It was just the car seat. It was just like he did not like to be confined. confined. confined. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And I was like, "We we can't go anywhere. Like we're never going to go anywhere." anywhere." anywhere." It's so It's so wild how some kids are so opposite like that. Like some kids are just like resistant to that and then other kids are like, "Oh, go to sleep right away." right away." right away." Yeah, that's that's Max.

Max can be in one of the loud cars, dude. You know, like I'm like I'm like, "Oh my god, dude. How's that poss?" Yeah. Top is down, engines roaring, and he's just like this like, "Oh, I just cannot figure it out, dude." Just I do remember though when he was a baby. So when we when we lived over by the coast and he uh I what I would take I would take him for nap time it I would just throw him in the car seat and we would just cruise one and just drive along the coast.

Yeah. And play music and just you get to go on a drive. Yeah. Yeah. I get to go on a drive and he'd fall asleep. So we've been doing that since he was a baby. So I wonder if it has something to do with that that from from infancy, you know, I'd put him in that car seat and we would just drive for a nap time. I was just talking with Aurelius yesterday cuz I don't know where this came up and he goes, "Is it true that when you were little you guys didn't have car seats?" And I'm so I'm explaining to him like I'm like, "No, we didn't have any car seats." He's like, "Where did you sit?" I said, "Every anywhere we wanted." He's like, "You sat in the front." You asked.

So we sat I sat on my mom's lap. I sit on the dashboard. I was like, "Are we crawl around the back and play?" He's like, "The police didn't stop you." I'm like, "There was no laws?" And then he goes, "There were no laws?" I'm like, "Well, that there were laws." were laws." were laws." He's like, "Didn't they care about kids?" I said, "I mean, they did, but they just they just they just different energy." different energy." different energy." Katrina get so mad. I let Max ride in the front seat all the time.

Katrina gets so mad. You're not supposed to do that. I'm like, "Dude, he's freaking he's almost 5 foot already. Rel his legs are dangling off this off the He's in a booster seat and his He's in a booster seat and his legs are still almost touching the ground." I'm like, "This is ridiculous. Oh yeah, Oh yeah, Oh yeah, I've been sitting in the front seat like years before that. Dude, he's he's fine. He's going to be totally fine. I know. Like wearing helmets riding bicycles, you know?

It's like I I'm like hammering the kids about just cuz you know Courtney's like freaks out about it and I'm like thinking like I never wore a helmet, dude. Never ever ever. If you were a kid I never I never wore a helmet. Never wore helmet. If you wore a helmet in the 80s or 90s, you were 100% going to get bullied. Yeah. Yes, Yeah. Yes, Yeah. Yes, for sure. Every Why are you wearing a helmet? you rolled up like cuz we all used to meet as kids.

We all met after like school all the bikes from all the neighborhood. neighborhood. neighborhood. If you were the kid that rolled up, the one kid one kid one kid I remember. I remember. I remember. What's up safety? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Oh, mushroom head. When I used to go to work with my dad, he uh in his work van, he had this old work van work van work van and uh it was a two-seater cuz the back was all open. They fill it up one of those crates from the milk crate.

I used to fill it with sand or, you know, materials and he would have a his helper and I'd sit in the middle. He made a a a wooden box and that's what I'd sit on. Yeah. I've said I saw crates before. Did you? Did you? Did you? And then I don't know what my dad was thinking. He's like, "I'm going to make this more safe." He gave me a little rope that I would put a bungee cord like a bungee cord for your lap. Dude, I've told it before, but we'd usually Dude, we just sit in the back of my dad's pickup truck with the gas and the gas tank was right here.

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. just fuse. just fuse. just fuse. Maybe that's why I'm buffering all the time. time. time. We'll start tripping all the football trauma. trauma. trauma. It's not the football gasoline, dude. gasoline, dude. gasoline, dude. My dad, well, my dad, it was even worse than his gentle, especially cuz he was poor. He was operating heavy machinery when he was 13. He tells me a story of how he drove a cement truck up into the hills and he'd have to put it in first gear to make it.

And he's telling me the story of how the road is so narrow. Yeah. that he had he had his buddy hanging out the side looking down to make sure that they didn't fall off the cliff cliff cliff and they're going up and they're going up like 5 miles an hour 10 miles hour bro as he's telling me the story I'm like that's terrifying this and that and then I'm like I just thought to myself like you should ask him how old he was I'm like how old were you when you're doing that he's like I don't know 13 12 oh my god that was what you were doing that's crazy that's crazy that's crazy that's wild I know I know it's a good Anyway, I want to ask you about uh you were saying off air how you've been using Well, I'll just I'll I'll prompt you.

Honey on your ribs. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So, what are you doing? Yeah. So, I use the Monura on there now. So, or the Monor. Did I say it right? Monora. Monora. Monora. Monora. That's Monora. That's Monora. That's Monora. Yeah. I used the Monora honey on there now. there now. there now. Is it better than just your regular old It like the taste of it. So, I've grown to really like it. I've also used it when I we were uh since the last time we talked about them.

I had gotten sick and so I was taking like I noticed a difference. take a like a table, water, lamb, lime or lemon and or I make a hot totty and I use it inside there. So, that that's been like my go-to move. But for my ribs, I'll make my ribs where I I do the first three-hour smoke and then after, in fact, I'm doing it today, right? So, I'll do a three-hour smoke Katrina. It's already prepped, so I've already seasoned it and everything. And then I'll tell her around 1:00, "Hey, throw it in at 2:20." She'll put it in the smoker.

It'll sit in there for three hours. And then I already have on the counter right now. I set up so she in case I don't make it home in time, she can just throw it on there. My foil, and then I have uh brown sugar, the monura honey, and then butter. And then the the rack of ribs sit in that, and then you wrap it all up, and then you put it back in. And then like there's the juices and the honey. And it's I mean, it's a it's a medicinal nutrition nutritional kind of based honey.

So like there's honey and then there's monukora. there's monukora. there's monukora. Like this is this stuff is like gold. Well, you got me use you got me using it for the cold. I had I'd already been using it for things like this, but I didn't think about using it for the cold. cold. cold. What's the ingredient? Is it MGO? MGO. MGO. MGO. Okay. This is a compound in honey that has these incredible medicinal and health benefits. And the amount that's in monocora is significantly higher that we'll find in other Do we know what what the what the comparison is?

I know you've talked about it before. Yes, Doug's going to pull it up right now, but uh it's significantly higher. uh you'd have to buy or take a lot more of the of another brand to get the same amount of the uh of the MGO. But MGO is antimicro antimicrobial. antimicro antimicrobial. antimicro antimicrobial. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Uh it's got anti-inflammatory benefits. It's pro um uh gut health. And this particular type of honey uh that they make that they get, I should say, is the highest percentage of MGO uh versus the other ones.

other ones. other ones. Oh, it even has that's what the number 850 means on it. Yeah. seen the number on 850 plus and I've seen there's other ones I've seen before that have number that aren't as high as high as high as I think other ones are like 60 or so yeah they vary quite a bit but this is monor is definitely some of the highest I've ever seen it's the highest yeah you know what it's good for uh that I think it's really good for so uh and this we talked about this years ago but this is important to talk about um when you look at people when you look at populations with gut health issues health issues health issues it's really interesting there's this there's this really strange we I know why, but when they first discovered this, they were like, "This doesn't make any sense." You expect people with poor health, poor health habits, who don't exercise to have gut health issues.

And that is the case. Yeah, Yeah, Yeah, that is the case. They have a higher percentage of gut health issues, uh, for people who eat like garbage, who smoke, who don't exercise, right? But then on the other side of the spectrum, people who exercise a lot actually have a higher rate of gut health issues than people in the middle. And they couldn't figure out what was going on. Why? Why is that the case? These are like really fit, athletic people. And it's because uh when you're training at that level, um you do cause systemic inflammation and you're encouraged, and this isn't a bad thing, but this does increase the risk.

You're encouraged to eat or take a protein shake or something like that right after you work out. Yeah. When you're all inflamed at the same time. Yeah. Right. And so, a lot of gut health issues can start, many of them can start with inflammation. And when your gut is because your whole body's inflamed from a hard workout, you're including your gut. And when your gut is inflamed, the junctions uh the tight junctions that seal your gut can become spaced out and can cause things to pass through.

And so what you'll see is sometimes people develop food intolerances with the foods that they eat post-workout. So it's like, I could always have dairy, now I can't have dairy. Well, your shake is dairy. Or I could always eat eggs, now I can't have eggs. Well, you eat eggs, you know, post-workout. So monocora uh because postworkout it's good to have a little carbohydrates with some protein. Monocora is good for your gut. It's anti-inflammatory and could help with the maintaining of the of the junctions. junctions. junctions.

Oh interesting. Oh interesting. Oh interesting. So if you want some carbs post-workout honey people have been using honey for a long timeout. long timeout. long timeout. Honey is a natural post-workout carb. Athletes have been using that for a long time. time. time. Monucora would have uh some protective effects. effects. effects. So you would add that tablespoon or two of that with your shake. Now you've got your carbs and your protein. Oh smart. And it's got some protection. Oh, interesting. That's actually a cool idea. Sweeten it up really nice, too.

Yeah. Yeah. And and it tastes uh you know, it tastes really good. Yeah. You brought up uh talking about my my ribs and stuff like that. You know, Butcher Box has been I still have yet to find anybody else that does ribs with that? I know Doug has done it. Have either one of you guys ordered their stuff. Have you used their ribs? Have you cooked? you cooked? you cooked? I make ribs, but you I've had yours and Doug's and I've had other people's ribs. And then was it at your house?

Yeah. It was someone's house where they had had had I know Courtney reached out for that recipe because uh we've been trying to get get the butcher box version of it for for for Well, it was I think it was your house. We were all eating over there and you had had you had the butcher box ribs and then you had bought extra another brand. Oh, it might have been. Yeah, cuz if I run out I have to order something else and if I'm cooking ribs for everybody I'm like I'm like I'm like they don't taste they taste way better.

No, they Yeah, way better. Not they're nowhere near as It's because the kind of pig, right? Yeah. It's a heritage pork pig which is a certain um breed. Uh oh. I thought it was what they feed on that. that. that. Well, it could be that as well. Yeah, absolutely. No, I did ribs for a friend of mine and he could not stop eating them. He goes, "Why are these ribs so good?" And good?" And good?" And I mean, I told him it's the way I cooked them, but the truth was they were the butcher box ribs.

I mean, it takes both. I mean, you still got to be decent. You got to know what you're doing and stuff like that, but it's they're definitely there's a huge difference. And we'll Katrina and I will just we'll eat a rack each and that's like dinner. like dinner. like dinner. I'll just sit down and eat a whole rack. So good. They are so good. I also like their their ground beef because I was over at my parents house this weekend. They were barbecuing. They we had like a barbecue.

It's like burgers and and and sausages. That's what Italians do instead of hot dogs and we were all eating them and my dad bought the Costco burger patties. Yeah. Yeah. So, it's just regular beef. I don't like I think when it comes to ground beef, I like the grass-fed better. better. better. They just don't taste as greasy. Oh, I I So, with ground beef, I prefer that. I was just going to say some of my steak if I go to like a fancy restaurant. restaurant. restaurant.

If I get like a ribeye and then traditional's got that then then I'll I'll I'll prefer a grain f beef. f beef. f beef. But ground beef it's better grass-fed cuz the other one's so oily. It's too oily and it's so like 100% I agree. So you see me I make it tastes as good. I I've been posting it almost every time I've been prepping the the the ground beef and the mushrooms and onions and I've gotten a bunch of people DMing me that have been doing that that have been doing that same exact recipe.

And I prefer the butcher box ground beef when I do that for sure. It's it's otherwise it just gets too oily and then it sits at the bottom and it's it's not as good. So I like the the the breakfast sauce is super convenient. It's like a patty. Um and here's the thing. We're flying out of the house early in the morning. Now the kids eating a lot more. So like especially Ethan, he'll eat like two of those patties and then like three eggs and then stuff it into like a sandwich and he eats every morning.

dude, he's he's getting huge. Uh and so that just comes in the clutch. We've been I mean the last, you know, month or so, uh I've been using and going through just bags of those things. I was just talking to my brother. So my brother's having a third kid. Did I tell you guys this? Did you know that? Three. Three. Three. Got a third one coming. Oh, right on. Boy, we just found out it's another he's got three boys. He's going to have three boys. boys.

boys. And so my brother when he was a he's a he my brother's a great He's a great father. I love seeing him with his kids. It warms my heart because he's such a good he's such a loving, engaged, good dad. But when he was little, uh my brother was um I don't know, nuclearpowered, I guess you would say. He was on fire all the time. Like drove my mom crazy. Uh constantly running, constantly moving, constantly climbing, breaking things. It was just it was it was insanity.

He has two boys that are just like him right now. So he's got two sons that are just they're just like him, too. They're so you can't get mad at them because they're so loving. They'll come up to you. hug you and if you pick them up, they'll cuddle with. They're just so loving. But you put them down and they're tearing my, you know, cuz I said we were having a barbecue yesterday. They're tearing my dad's tree down. They're throwing lemons. They're fighting, you know? They're they're wrestling with each other, you know?

They're they're they're just nuts. They're just nuts, right? He's got two of them. He's have a third one. And so I was just talking with them, dude. I'm like, "Bro, I'm like, first of all, God bless you." And his wife is so patient, too. So, I'm like, "You guys are the right people to have these kind of kids." I said, "But also, whoa, when those are teenage boys, cuz they're big kids." It's funny, my niece was there, and she she works at the kids club at a gym.

And she's like, you know, I'm working with a lot of kids now. And I realize kids aren't supposed to be as big as your kids cuz they're big old kid. They're big sons. They're big big. They're like my brother. Big big dudes. So, I'm like, man, when when you're going to have three teenage boys in your house, house, house, eat you out of house. You're Yeah, dude. You're going to have to You better Is he You better make a lot of money. Are they Are they shutting it down or they going to keep going?

Is he trying to get a girl? Do you know? I Okay, so we'll have to wait a few years cuz you know how it is when you first have a baby. I don't want to have anymore. anymore. anymore. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I would love to have I would love to see him go for number four. Yeah. I want a little niece so bad, dude. Yeah. So bad. But three's Yeah. Especially if the third boy is like the other two boys. Oh my god. Dude, I feel like three of any sex is a lot.

Three girls, three boys, three of the same sex. I feel like like parents just need a little a little bit of a breakup. You know what I'm saying? Like you just need a little a little change of pace. Three of the same of anything is is just every parent I know that has three girls or three boys. It's just like that's a lot. It's a lot to have three of the same. same. same. Well, I could see three teenage girls uh obviously I'm being stereotypical, but I could see three teenage girls making you want to pull your hair out, but three young boys, that's a lot, dude.

You know, especially active boys, you know, you've been around little little active boys. Don't buy anything expensive. It's bro, dude. He breaks stuff all his older one breaks stuff all the time, dude. dude. dude. Yeah. Yeah. You just get real durable furniture, you know. Make sure you get the scratch proof lowers and, you know. Hey, speaking of boys, uh, weren't you, uh, on the side of the road with your boy's car? boy's car? boy's car? Yes. Yes. Yes. What happened to that? Did you see that?

No. No. No. These guys got like I heard for like 3 hours. hours. hours. Yes. 3 hours. His new car broke down. Yeah. So, we were That sucks. And we were just taking it because um well it got smogged before and this was on like the seller to smog it, but it just like that window where we were like registering it, it had like expired and so we're like oh man. And so we have to go smog it ourselves. We go to smog it and it's like it was the RPMs were going way too high and um and they were like running it I think for an hour or so just like you know pressure testing it and whatnot.

Uh, and they're like, "You're gonna have to take this to, you know, the the mechanic to to check it out." And so, uh, I was like, "Okay, I'll follow you." And I followed Courtney was driving it and I was following her like, and we were just taking the side roads and it was just like getting hotter and hotter. And she pulls over. I'm like, "Oh man, it's like it's heating up on us." And I'm like, "Well, let's just wait a while." And I'm like, you know, testing the engine blocks, seeing how hot it is.

Oh, okay. It's not too bad. I'll get some coolant, throw some coolant in there, you know, go a little bit further and we went like maybe another mile and then like she started getting a little bit of smoke coming through the vent and like it was I'm like, "Dude, just stop, you know, like we're just going to park it here." And she she parked unfortunately like right where like in this neighborhood where you have to like It's not like there was a side of the road where you could park.

It was like right in the middle of the road. And so everybody's like driving around us and like it was it dude we were there just kind of sitting on the on the curb for looking at our phone and and we kept looking for updates and it was like it was an update. It was like maybe 45 minutes like oh man it's a long time but yeah I guess we'll just wait 45 minutes and you know somebody would come out of their house you guys doing all right we're like yeah we're doing okay like really nice people dude actually like made me like somewhat optimistic about people again.

And I was like, "Wow." Like, everybody in this neighborhood was super cool and nice and offering us drinks and things and we're just like sitting there. And then we go look at the update again. It's like 2 hours. And we're like, "What? No way." It was like 15 minutes to 2 hours. And so the window and it just kept going like back and forth and like changing on us uh forever. And we're just kind of laughing about it because we were kind of held hostage. But there's really nothing we could do.

Uh and and dude, it was man, it was brutal. We just kept waiting. Uh, and people were driving by and this one guy comes out and like was talking to us for a bit, started walking around and then he just like mind pump and then like walks away, you know. I'm like did And Courtney was like he just said I'm like what? I didn't catch that. And I'm like why? Who does that? Like who says like mind pumps out. Yeah. He's like all scared to talk to me.

to me. to me. I'll get that like in the airport. I'll hear someone then I'll like turn around and look. I have no idea where it came from but I'll hear it. You know where someone does that when you go by. So yeah, yeah, yeah, did I tell you guys the the the the when I got my vasectomy how the the one of the people in there? Shut up. Shut up. Shut up. Listen. Listen. Listen. Oh yeah, dude. That's a great place to get recognized. get recognized.

get recognized. Oh, it's the worst. It's the worst, dude. You know, getting, you know, I'm getting set up and they're doing the thing. Cough, please. Cough, please. Cough, please. White balls are in head. Hey, you know, I know you, right? Everything's all love your show. Hey, love your love your love your It was after It was afterward. Everything was done. You know what I mean? I'm all set. Like, you got to eat a lot of protein. Am I right? So this is exactly how healthy. You know, I listened for a while.

It's exactly how I pictured. pictured. pictured. No. After we were done, after we're done healthy, healthy, healthy, they're giving you all the in they're giving you all the instructions. You know, you got to do this. And I'm on my way out. I'm like, "Oh, by the way, really like your show." Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. At the end when I'm leaving, I'm like, I guess it's better. I was going to say that's probably better. If they tell you before, I'm like, "Oh, man. This is awkward now." Yeah.

Yeah. Yeah. Can you bring someone else in? You know me too much. Oh my god. That's funny. That's funny. That's funny. So, did you guys get So, you guys uh finally get it towed 3 hours later. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Finally towed. Yeah. So, yeah, we're finding out cuz like you know it was the weekend and so it's like we just had to like drop it off like right at the place in in the Keys. And so, uh we're going to find out today since it's you know it was over the weekend what was wrong with it.

But uh yeah, I was just like revving and the thing is like we already drove it from LA all the way up or no problems. And the thing about old cars like it just kind of like comes out of nowhere, you know? Uh so I I'm just like remembering all these things again like you kind of forget like how all the little nuances and and stuff like happens with these old cars. And um you know it it's so much fun though to drive with the manual stick shift.

Uh, I forgot like how just involved you are like in just the feel of everything and the sounds and it's like so much of a visceral experience as opposed to just downshifting and revving and and I just found like a rad um parking lot to really have like Ethan trying to open up and uh I was waiting for like a good rain so we could go hydroplan and figure that out. My dad did that with me and I was Oh, the one you had had a hand.

That's a great idea. Yeah, go hit it hard, you know, and and fishtail a bit, but like be calm and, you know, slowly correct it and kind of slide through it and yeah, all that stuff. Like I'd rather him learn there than just like caught off guard. So, guard. So, guard. So, no, of course. I saw your daughter's park job, too. That's a great But that was for real. That was for real. She like And didn't like did she not say anything and she just came to the house and you just saw that?

I went for a walk. You went for a walk and you and you and you obviously she didn't have a passenger. Uh that's Uh that's Uh that's I mean I I'm trying to picture her. You know what I sent? You know what I sent to her? What' you say? You guys know that that gift where Homer Simpson goes in like this is you hell like half in the book. Yeah, she was half in the book. What are you doing? you doing? you doing? Like you can't tell me when she's parking she doesn't hear what she did like I mean do you just like you hear all that?

You just about to get out. I I took a picture of it and I sent it in a group text with Jessica and my niece and her. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And I'm just make we're just teasing her, making fun of her about it. I'm like, "Dude, you're you don't need to be that close to the bush. You leave a little space on me. Give a little space between I was just picturing like if that was like how she was pulling in then she just said, "F it.

Get out and just say cuz I feel like you do that you're like oh oo that's a little close. Back back it back out. Redo it." She just said no. She's I'm committed. I'm committed to parking in the I don't know, bro. I don't know what happened there. happened there. happened there. I don't know what happened there. Oh, I would have died if I would have came out and saw that, dude. It was hilarious. hilarious. hilarious. Element is an electrolyte powder you add to your water.

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Go check them out. Go to drinklement.com/mindpump. Now, that link is going to get you a free sample pack of their most popular drink mix flavors with any purchase. Back to the show. This segment of the podcast is brought to you by Mindpump Fitness Coaching. This is the number one course that teaches trainers and coaches how to build sustainable sixf figureure plus businesses and careers in fitness. Look, it's round table based. So, you can hear Adam, Justin, and myself teaching you how to build a better business, get more leads, close more deals, close bigger deals, and be more effective trainers.

By the way, our course is nationally recognized. In fact, it gives you 1.9 CEUs with or for your NASM certification. Find out more at mindpunfitnesscoaching.com. Our first caller is Nikki from Georgia. Hi Nikki. Hi Nikki. Hey, how are you? Good. Good. Good. Good. How can I help you? Good. Um, so my son is 15 years old and he's been having knee pain when he does barbell squats, but he does not have that knee pain when he does box squats. So, he'll do 225 for reps with barbell squats, but he can do 315 with box squats and not have any pain.

So, I was wondering what could cause that issue. His ankle mobility. Usually it's almost certainly that he So the reason why it it doesn't bother his knees is because he doesn't have to go down very deep with the box squats and so he's got that support. He can sit back on it. Where he does barbell squats, his ankles need the mobility for his knees to travel forward. travel forward. travel forward. And because he lacks a little bit of that ankle mobility, he feels a stress in his knees as his knees go to travel forward.

forward. forward. That change of direction puts an excess amount of stress. Yep. Too. So that box really helps to kind of slow that down. Yeah. Let me ask you some more questions. Nikki, is the box squat as deep as his regular squat? Um, not quite. No. Okay. Of course not. So, uh, so yeah. So, a number one, it's deeper. Uh, and then what Justin said, right, when you're going down and then you change directions, there's a fraction of a second in which the weight is actually generating more force, increases force increases force increases force than the the weight itself because you need to change directions because now you're actually you're you're not just lifting the weight, you're having to change the direction of the momentum.

Okay? And in that change of direction, which a box squat stops. So a box squat as I sit, I don't need to change I don't need to stop the momentum. The box does that. And then I squat up. So even at the same distance, sometimes a box squat feels better on somebody's knees. Than a traditional squat because I'm not having to reduce or slow down or reverse change or change the direction of the momentum. And momentum. And momentum. And so what happens is uh either the knees don't want to travel forward like Adam said or said or said or because there's a little lack of ankle mobility, there's a little torsion on the knee.

the knee. the knee. You might not even be able to see it, right? But when there's ankle mobility issues, the feet want to do this. They want to turn out, but let's say his his knees come in just a little bit on both. on both. on both. Yeah. So that's So there it is. Yeah. Feel a little bit of pain in the meniscus. meniscus. meniscus. Now, there's something else here that I want to address if you don't mind because I see your question. There's more to your question.

You said that his doctor warned him uh that lifting too heavy would basically stunt his growth. growth. growth. Yeah. So Yeah. So Yeah. So Oh no. Oh no. Oh no. He had his physical um for football and he's 6'1 and he wants to get taller. And so the doctor was like, "Well, just be mindful that you know lifting heavy is going to make your bones grow out and not up." And I was like, "Really? No. No. No. I've never heard that before." And she's like, "Yeah." No.

And so my son was like, "Mom, do I need to?" Cuz she's like, "So you should do higher reps, lower weight." And I was like, "I don't think that's a thing." No. So let me address this, right? Not going to grow out, not up. Yeah. So there's some truth to it, but I'll explain what's going on. What truth? What truth? What truth? Well, this is what's going on. At his age, you uh he's not done growing, right? He's 15, right? right? right? And there are growth plates that if they become damaged will limit the growth of the bone.

the bone. the bone. Yeah. If he hurts himself, right? And so the fear is with too much tension on the growth plates, they'll cause damage and then stop the growth. Now, here's why that's almost always not a problem. The amount of tension required to cause damage to a growth plate is incredibly high. Excessive. Yeah. Excessive amount. Okay. Now, here's here's this is a unique situation, though, Nikki, because I'm going to just talk a little bit about your kid. He's 15 and he can squat 315 on a box and he can rep out 225.

He's strong, He's strong, He's strong, dude. Yeah, dude. Yeah, dude. Yeah, he's he's actually one of the strongest 15y olds in the world. He's a very strong kid. strong kid. strong kid. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Okay. Okay. Okay. Okay. If he's doing legit squats, he's really strong. You said he's 6'1. How much does he weigh? Uh 164. Uh 164. Uh 164. Yeah, he's crazy strong. Yeah, he's strong. So, here's the deal. So, what I'm going to tell you as his mom, okay? Cuz he's still growing. And so what happens when you're still growing is you don't have as much time to acclimate to your body, your body awareness.

You ever do you ever own a dog and you see it grow into a large puppy and it's like super awkward? super awkward? super awkward? Yes. Yes. Yes. They just got to get used to their size. So this is your son right now uh at his age cuz he's going to keep growing and you know he'll probably grow in spurts like he'll grow three inches out of nowhere or whatever or he'll just gain all this muscle out of nowhere, right? and he's got a new body and so he has to acclimate to it.

And so because your son is so strong at his age, I will encourage you now, I don't think he's going to damage growth plates, but I will say this. Uh I would be very mindful of pushing the weight only because your kid is hella strong. He's already there. He doesn't need What this is what I would do. I'm gonna give I'm gonna have Doug give you prime pro and have him do work on his ankle mobility because that is absolutely going to serve him. So have him do ankle mobility stuff all the time.

He can do he can work on it every day, multiple times a day. If he improves his ankle mobility, that's going to help a lot. Then get tell him to get on Instagram and follow a page called Squat University. University. University. Their con their content is 100% built around improving the squat. And what he should do instead of trying to go get his weight any higher than because he's already really strong would be to perfect his squat is get better at the squat. So his knees aren't caving in his feet.

So normally too if a kid's knees are caving in, his feet are probably flattening a little bit or or his feet are turning out. So, so and Squat University talks all about this about his foot placement, about where his knees are at, and like just have him really dive into like perfecting the squat because if he just moves the weight he's moving with a beautiful, perfect squat, painfree, he'll he'll see gains and improvement just from that. It'll be better gains. In fact, I'm going to send you another program that I think will be very valuable for your kid, which is symmetry.

Symmetry. Yep. Symmetry. Yep. Symmetry. Yep. I think because of his because t here's what'll happen. If I take a 15-year-old playing football, playing football, playing football, I'm going to get them strong at squats and deadlifts and overhead presses. Now, if I run into the 0.001% of 15year-olds who can squat 315 on a box, I'm going split stance. He's already strong. Yeah. Like to get him in a split stance is more applicable towards any sport. And so to reinforce that and get stronger there in multiple planes, planes, planes, uh it's like he built the foundation.

He he established that like he's he's rock solid there. So now we got to kind of express it more. Yes. We actually want to put some brakes on that kind of load with those exercises exercises exercises and split stance exercises, unilateral exercises that'll improve his performance as much if not more at his strength. And it'll reinforce his stability so that when he's 18, 19, 20, he's in college, he starts squatting again. He's squatting 500 lb and he's got really good technique and no pain. Because what can happen at this age with that weight because here's what happens.

There's always a risk of injury with exercise. The heavier the weight, the greater the risk of injury when you move outside of perfect. So like one degree outside of perfect with 100, you know, if he had 90 lbs on his back and he was one degree outside of perfect is risk of injury is not that high. 300 lb on a 15-year-old's back, one degree outside of perfect, risk of injury is kind of high, high, high, right? So, uh, because this is such an exceptional case, I'm like, I'm going to go unilateral pretty much all the time.

He's going to do split stance exercises. We're going to focus on technique. If a weight feels light, I'm going to make it feel heavier by slowing it down and by perfecting the technique, not by adding weight on the bar. Cuz again, he's one of the strongest. If he's doing genuine squats, he's one of the strongest 15-year-olds in the nation. And so you want to be really uh smart about how he trains because you could devel this kid will develop some incredible strength so long as he's smart.

We got to support that now and reinforce the joints. the joints. the joints. Follow that Squat University page. We got a ton of good information on there. It's completely dedicated to to improving. improving. improving. Does he have a strength train like a like a personal trainer or coach? So I was training him and we were working out together and then it got to the point where it's not real cool to go to the gym with your mom. Um, so then he is actually in they do it's like seventh period football.

So it's one of the coaches that runs the workouts. So that was what my next question after this. So the workouts aren't the best and he tells me you know what they do every day and there's just there's not a lot of structure to it. It's kind of random. It's like It's like It's like wherever you can find a station go do this. Um, so how would you if I give them symmetry like and and we do that? How do you do that around these workouts that they're doing?

Can you do you ever can you bring the he can bring the blueprints in with him? I was just going to say, do you talk to the coach? the coach? the coach? Yeah, I can. Yeah, I'd say, "Hey, hey, coach. Uh, my son's got a little bit of knee pain. He's really strong. I talked to some uh some, you know, strength and conditioning experts. They suggested that he do split stance exercises." So, you know, like lunges, Bulgarian split stance, squats, and that kind of stuff. Lateral lunges, Lateral lunges, Lateral lunges, you know, lateral lunges.

I think I want him to focus on this during strength training. training. training. Um, and the coach, I'm sure, is not going to care cuz he's trained a whole class. I'm sure he's totally fine with it. it. it. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Perfect. Perfect. Perfect. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. You got it. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Thank you so much. Awesome. Keep in touch. Can't wait to hear about this kid. Stud. Yeah. Stud. Yeah. Stud. Yeah. Thanks. All right. You got it. Yeah. 99.999% Yeah. 99.999% Yeah. 99.999% of the time when someone's like, "You're going to stunt your growth." At a 15-y old, I'm like, "Get out of here." Then you get that occasional, listen, a 315 box squat, a 15-y old kid, 225 for reps.

That's a strong ass kidy old I don't know. know. know. At 160, he's a tall skinny kid. He's light. He's light. He's light. He's a tall skinny kid. Yeah. He's not He's not like I thought she was going to say like 61, 280, like a big old at least 185 maybe. Yeah, I thought he was going to be a big lineman. lineman. lineman. Like a big heavy ass kid. Yeah, those are like lineman numbers in high school. Yeah. And he's a f like a freshman, right?

Yeah, that's a freshman. That's a That's right. right. right. Damn. Damn. Damn. Yeah, dude. So, these guys force. So, again, typically you you 15-year-olds, I'm like, squat. Let's get you strong at squats. But, dude, you're pushing that much weight at 100 and you're a tall skinny kid. No, No, No, we're going to Yeah, we're going to move. move. move. I completely agree. Just split stance and like do the the the boil method from here. here. here. Yeah, bro. Yeah, bro. Yeah, bro. Yeah, at this point.

I mean, at this point, you're right. Right. I mean, he could totally avoid bilateral squatting stuff for a year or two and then come back. back. back. He could avoid it all high school. This going to be a 600 lb squatting college kid, uh, is what he's going to be. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Our next caller is Mike from Ontario. What's up, Mike? What's happening? Hey there, fellas. Appreciate you taking the time to chat with me today. Uh, much love from up here in Canada. Awesome, dude.

How can we help you? All right. Uh, with respect to your time, I've consolidated this down uh, the best way I can to point forms. So, a little bit about me. I was an obese child and teenager. Uh I was 5 foot and 260 at my worst. Um I got into boxing in high school competitively. Uh I did that for a couple of years. I got my first membership uh to a gym at 19 years old. So I uh just through obsessive cardio like honestly I didn't really have any knowledge for lifting or I wasn't following any kind of programming just like a ton of cardio.

Uh I got into running as well. I lost 100 lbs. So, it went down to 160ish, but it was really skinny fat. Like, I always had like, you know, the the ripped fat guy calves, but I I was never really a a defined muscular dude at all. Uh my mid20s, I got my first coach and my first meal plan. He was a friend of mine who did uh physique competitions and stuff like that. Now, his first uh protocol for me was like crank my calories up, like get get me into like a reverse diet.

I was really resilient to this. I'm like, "No, bro. I need to eat less to get abs. And it's tail as old as time. So, I've yo-yo dieted um a lot over the last 10 years, but it was never out of control. Like, I never got like to a point when it was like, "Okay, I really got to rein this in." So, I got married this past November. Uh I guess coming up on 6 months ago, and just after the wedding, I weighed in at 2:15.

And uh my my body wasn't looking good. Like I sent uh I sent Doug uh some uh current and uh pictures from around then. So we're we're moving in the right direction. I started a pretty hard cut around then. Went to 2,000 calories a day. That looked like uh 160 protein, 65 fat, 180 carbs. I was lifting 5 days a week. Uh 20 minutes daily of cardio. I've got a husky, so I walk her every day. And I work in a very successful high volume cocktail bar.

So when I'm at work, I'm I'm moving a fair bit, too. So, the weight was dropping. Uh, strength was holding. I I think my programming is pretty decent. Um, I got down to 195ish, so I lost about 20 lbs. That held for a couple of weeks. Uh, readjusted, went down to,900 calories and lost another five to 190 lb. And it was a hard stall. Like, and uh like I'd have uh like a like my wife and I would order pizza for dinner and I'd go up a couple pounds.

I'd hold on to that for three or four days. and uh it just felt like a really hard stall. So I discovered you guys around the time I uh started this cut uh back in November and I I knew the advice would be to reverse diet but I didn't know what that looked like. Um so I just cranked it overnight from 1900 to 2500. I went up to 201 protein, 84 fat, and 239 carbs. Cut out cardio completely and my strength completely took off. like I I didn't realize how much my uh like the thing is like if I lift the same amount of reps as the week before, but I'm struggling a little bit more mentally, I'm still like, "Oh, I'm moving the same weight.

I'm not losing strength." But there's a lot to be said for the amount of effort it takes to do that. So, my strength completely took off. Uh every lift is up in that time. My body feels great. Um sorry, there's a cat on the table now. Um, yeah. So, my body's tightened up. I went down another pound or two. I've been sitting around there. I'm still in the gym 5 days a week. Feels like a good number for me. I like the ritual. It's good for me mentally.

And, uh, yeah, it's the weight is about leveled off. I feel like I'm kind of stalling again. Uh, albeit eating 600 more calories a day. Um, I'm not hyperfocused on the weight. I just track it for a data point. like it doesn't ruin my day if I'm a little up or it doesn't, you know, drastically skew where I'm going to go if I'm a little bit down. But my question then lies into what this actually looks like moving forward sustainably for me. So I want to be able to go out with my wife for a nice dinner, like have a have a glass of whiskey with dinner or something like that.

Like I'm not a party. that. Like I'm not a party. I'm not a drinker. But uh when I hear like you know you guys talk about in the long run, oh like it you'll just you'll have an easier time getting to you know these things won't affect you quite as much cuz your calories will be higher. I want to know what like the pathway to that looks like. But also uh like I'm still uh I would guess probably mid mid to low 20s for body fat right now.

I'd like to be low to mid teens. like to be low to mid teens. So, getting to that goal while still looking for the long-term sustainability of, you know, having calories high and uh building muscle in the long term. You're on the path. Yeah, you're doing the right thing. You're you're you're on the path, bro. You're I mean, I just I'm looking at your original pictures in November where you're at now. Uh you're making And keep in mind, too, you're up 600 calories, right? So, you're Yeah.

Yeah. Yeah. So, the way you look and up 600 calories is phenomenal. You dropped you dropped body fat and built muscle. Yeah, you're on you're you're on a great path right now. Think of it this way. This is the mentality that I want you to to to adopt that'll help you right now. Build into a leaner physique. leaner physique. leaner physique. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Don't cut into a leaner physique. Now, 5 days a week of exercise, uh the amount of activity that you're doing, your weight, uh your calories are still low.

low. low. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Oh, yeah. 2500 is still low. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Absolutely. Absolutely. Absolutely. Like, yeah. I'm uh I'm going to be 38 in a week and I'm uh about 5'8 now. I I still figure pro to be about uh you know the 12 to 14 uh% range and I'm not fixated on that number. I'm just figuring that's like you know probably a reasonable goal to shoot for. So probably probably probably No, no, no. Don't don't cut into that. So just to encourage you, you bumped your calories and got leaner.

Yep. Yep. Yep. That that's gonna happen for a little while, dude. while, dude. while, dude. Yeah, it'll continue to happen. And and you you're back to your question about how do I get to a place where I can have a glass of whiskey with dinner with my wife on a Friday night or what like that and not feel like it's you know it affects me that where that is is is higher calories. So when you get to a place kind of like where you are now but you're eating 3,000 calories so you put on even more muscle, you lean out a tiny bit more but now you're eating 3,000.

Now you have this metabolic flexibility. Now, if you really wanted to too, you could you could cut for a short period of time to get down it real fast. But if you just keep going the path you're going, like to Sal's point, you build into a leaner physique, you'll get the thing that you want where you have higher calories, so you have more metabolic flexibility and then you'll also be at such a high calorie. I mean, a great goal instead of a body fat percentage goal would be, can I not put any weight on the scale, kind of hover where I'm at, but get my calories up to 3,200, 3,400 calories a day?

Cuz if you if you don't move on the scale much and just keep kind of doing, you're kind of in that Goldilock zone, which by the way is one of the best places to be, but also one of the most mentally challenging places cuz sometimes not seeing the scale move also messes with people's heads a little bit, like am I seeing progress? I mean, it's very obvious when you look at the picture from November to now, you're making great progress. You're up 600 calories and you look radically different.

You lost a lot of body like like go if you just kept going down this path for six more months. I bet you you'll look back at that picture and go, "Oh [ __ ] I'm look even better than that." And so you're in a great place, but Sal's right like try and build into that leanness. Don't try and cut into that leanness. So I'd go up in calories. I also think too like uh I mean I I I know you like the five days a week. I'd like to give you one of our programs because there's I mean there's there's something about having somebody else program for you and following it and I don't know if you've been kind of doing similar stuff as far as your training like how have do you change your training up?

Does it look pretty similar? Like what what's the split look like? like? like? I I I was originally I don't know is it is it bad decorum to say if I was using a different program? No no it's okay. So, like you guys have mentioned Jeff Nipper in the past. He's a local guy to me. So, I I was following a program of his and then um it's 5 days full body. full body. full body. That's fine. That's fine. That's fine. Oh, wow. Five days full body.

Yeah. It's like heavy, light, you know. Okay. So, does you periodize like the the like how your is your lifting intensity change each day or what's it look like with a full body? Well, it's um it'll be like uh the volume changes week to week. So some days or some weeks uh like you'll have one week where the rep range is like four to six and you'll be uh like aim to hit you know uh two reps in reserve on that and then the following week it'll be like uh 14 to 16 reps and hit two.

So it's like uh I I imagine the volume will be fairly similar cuz when I'm doing 14 to 16 I'm using way lower weights of course. of course. of course. But uh yeah it's like one one to two big lifts a day and then a lot of auxiliary stuff stuff stuff and that's every day. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. All right. If you like it, you can keep doing it. I think uh if I put you on uh maps anabolic, I think it'll probably serve you a little better.

So, I'll send it to you. You could decide to try it or not. not. not. Let's do it. Yeah, I would love to. I'm uh I'm uh I'm I'm down to try something new and see what But but you could easily you could bump your calories 27 right now. You think that's the next day? If I'm at 25 25 25 tomorrow, go up to 27. Honestly, I look now there's this is give or take, right? So, if I coached you through this process, then we would be able to be much more individualized.

But generally speaking, with what you're saying, I'd eventually probably get you up to about 3,200 calories. Yeah, that's what I think. Oh, that'd be a dream, dude. That's uh that's a pizza without the nightmare. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. By the way, by the way, the two or three pounds you gain from the pizza is water. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Exactly that. And like I said, too, it's like when I when I see the scale go up, I'm like, "Yeah, this is water weight. This is like, you know, excess whatever." And it goes away after a couple days.

Like I I analyze it as a data point. Like I'm not stewing on my good. No, you're bro, you're on the right path. right path. right path. Yeah. Go up 300 calories. Keep keep doing what you're doing or follow our program. You if you're getting stronger, you're building into getting leaner. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And keep moving in that direction. And once you get to a place where you're like, whoa, I'm eating a lot of food and I feel good. If you want to pull back and do a cut, you you could go back down to 2500 and that'll be your cut.

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Amazing. That'll be the dream. Yeah. I'm uh I'm excited to try out some of your programming as well. Be killing. Yeah. You got it, dude. Yeah. You'll do great, bro. You're do you're already doing great. stay on this path. path. path. Amazing. Well, I appreciate your time, guys. And, uh, I I just like to say as well, um, like my my job is incredibly social. So, when I'm, uh, when I'm in the gym on a day off, like just like having you guys in my ears, it just it's this weird like parasocial thing, like I feel like I'm a fly on the wall for just conversations that are helpful.

It's uh, it does something for me and I think for a lot of people. So, I appreciate that. That's cool, man. Appreciate that, Mike. That's cool. That's cool. That's cool. Thank you, brother. Amazing. Take care, guys. Thanks. Thanks. Thanks. Yeah. What's great about his picture? First of all, he lost a lot of body fat. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. He built muscle and he lost a lot of body fat going up and he didn't move and he didn't really move on the scale, which is like the Goldilock stuff.

Yeah. Like he did perfect. And he could he could probably just hang around here, but he's got room to go up in calories. I think I think if he hangs around here, he'll still see some body comp, but I think he'll see more body comp with a bump in calories with that much activity, what he's doing. Yeah. Yeah. Agreed. And that's it's obvious because his body was holding on to body fat cuz his calories are so low. Yeah. Yeah. and he's seeing strength gains. He'll build he'll build muscle.

He'll continue to go down. And the other part that's important to hear is what he said is just like, you know, the guy wants balance. He wants to be able to have a glass of whiskey with and that will serve him going the direction you're saying cuz he could cut from here if he really wanted just to lean out a little bit little bit little bit and go down to 2,000 calories and he'll lean he'll lose some body fatuck. Yeah. Then he's stuck at a low calorie.

He probably won't be happy where he's at physique-wise. It's like, no, keep building. and keep building to a place like 32, 3,400 calories and then come back down to 27 28. Be eating more than you've ever ate and leaner and stronger than you ever been. Our next caller is Kayla from South Carolina. Carolina. Carolina. Hi Kayla. Hello. Good morning. Caleb. Caleb. Caleb. Hey guys. How are you? Good. Good. How you doing? Good. Thanks for having me back on. Um I will just read my question if that's okay.

okay. okay. Yeah, let's go. Yep. Yep. Yep. All right. So, hi guys. I'm writing with a question around reverse dieting, building muscle, and BMR. A little background for context. I have been on the show before. I'm a full-time working mom of two. I have a nineyear-old and a one-year-old. And I also coach fitness um on the side. So, I've been consistently training myself for about 6 years. Um I'm currently still breastfeeding, though I am starting to wean. A few years back, it was probably around 2022.

Before finding you guys, I was definitely undereating and overtraining. So when I came on the show at the end of 2023, I was still in that pattern to a lesser degree, but still there. And you guys had encouraged me to scale back my training and increase my calories, which I did. Shortly after I got pregnant, which was something that we were working toward for a long time, and I now have a healthy 1-year-old as of March 15th. So since then, I have stayed fairly consistent with tracking.

Of course, not perfectly through pregnancy and everything, but pretty consistent overall. Um, and through pregnancy and breastfeeding, my appetite naturally increased. I've gradually brought my cal calories up to around 2600 2700 per day. Um, and I consider it somewhat of a controlled reverse or a mini bulk that I've been in. Really just kind of listening to my body and trying to fuel myself has been the goal without putting on too much fat. Postpartum, I've adjusted my training. I feel like I've built a solid amount of muscle.

I'm getting stronger. I feel like I look leaner and more toned. Um, and my weight is now around 127 128. Pre-preg I was about 131, but of course my body has changed as well. I gained about 25 lbs during pregnancy. I've since lost that weight um and then a few extra pounds, but have continued to rebuild the muscle. So, here's where my question comes in. I had done a body scan in August and then again recently. And even though I feel confident that I've built muscle and lost body fat, my BMR on those scans really hasn't changed much.

I mean, I think it went up maybe 20ome calories. I recently was actually listening to one of your episodes and I think you guys had said something given somebody the advice of trying to increase that BMR. So that's kind of when this question came to mind. Um, so it just kind of seemed confusing to me cuz my current maintenance is around 26 2700 calories without weight gain. So, my questions are, should BMR increase as you build muscle and improve your metabolism? How accurate are these scans?

Um, just for context, my most recent one said my TDE was around 20 2100 I believe it was. Um, and then is real world maintenance intake a better indicator than the scan data? And when you talk about building your metabolism before a cut, is maintenance intake the more meaningful metric that I should be focusing on? Yes. Really? Just Yes. Sorry. Go ahead. Yes. No. Yes. Yes. Okay. So, BMR increase it should Yes. It should improve your metab. It should. Yes. But how accurate are those BMR things?

Terrible. things? Terrible. things? Terrible. Uh terrible. Uh is real world is real world maintenance intake a better indicator? Absolutely. I never I never use any of the Aura app, Dexa Scan. It's never accurate to myself. It's never been accurate to my clients. And that's why I'm I'm a big fan of like you telling me and as a as a coach trainer and you're obviously track you pay attention. You have a better idea of how many calories you maintain at and how many calories will increase you and how many calories it cut.

You I can tell already you know that. Yeah. Well, Kayla, let me ask you like I think uh like what do you think the answers were to these? So, I think that your real world tracking is definitely the way to go. That's kind of what I've been doing with the clients who I'm working with. Um, I don't I tell them not to focus too much on what these numbers say, but in the gym setting that I'm working in right now, I don't know if it's the demographic, the age, or what it is, but people get so hung up on these numbers where my online clients, I feel like, trust me, um, to track.

I'll have them track usually for 10 to 14 days, and then that's where I start their maintenance and go from there. Way better. So, so here's the deal, okay? okay? okay? You're you're tracking. You're eating 26 2700 calories. You're not gaining any weight. weight. weight. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Correct. Correct. Correct. The machine says 1300. Yeah. You're gonna gain weight at over 2100 calories. Okay. Yes. It's not happening. Right. You see the real evidence in front of you, right? right? right? Yeah. Absolutely. Yeah. Absolutely. Yeah. Absolutely.

Obviously, it's a terrible estimate. Also, for the people in the gym, you have a wonderful testimony. You could show them, hey, listen. You know what mine says? And you show them your paper. Do you want to know what I ate yesterday? And then show them your tracking. And I'm not gaining any weight. It's it's so to estimate somebody's metabolic rate off of those machines machines machines is terrible. There's only one way to accurately do it and it's in the moment and you got to wear a machine that you breathe into and you move and it's measuring it in that moment.

There's there's really no super accurate way to measure this incredibly complex thing known as metabolism. metabolism. metabolism. Not to mention it's it's a it moves. It's not a it's not a stationary number. you a night a bad night of rest uh overstressed uh you know there's a whole host of things that will change that in a day. a day. a day. So and that's why the tracking for a week or two weeks like you've done gives you a way better estimate than some sort of algorithm that's based off of your age, your sex, your weight, and your estimated movement.

Like that's just so that you what you're doing with people by having them track for 10 to 14 days is exactly what we do. Yep. Yep. Yep. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Okay. That's how we coach our coaches. That's the only accurate number. There is no more accurate only way you'll get there. There's no other way to do it in a more accurate way. accurate way. accurate way. And the few people that are listening that go, "Well, mine matches just right." It's more by luck and chance that that theirs match up perfect.

Yeah. Good for you. Like broken clock is right. right. right. Yeah. Then you're the norm. You I've those BMR things are almost always way off for people and I just don't even pay attention to them. And when we reverse diet someone like you who's fit, who's strength training, who's doing it right, I'll crush a whatever a BMR scan will say every like what you're saying, that's the norm. I'll get we'll reverse diet someone and we'll be 5 600 800,000 calories above what their machine tells them they should be at.

That happens all the time. the time. the time. Yeah. Mhm. Yeah. Okay. Yeah. Okay. Yeah. We recently got um an evil body scanner and I think that because of that it gives so much good data but people are getting so hung up on those numbers. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And they they find it hard to believe that I eat as much as I do and I'm trying to tell them, hey, I'm tracking. I track pretty religiously. I mean, I'm pretty disciplined, but I do allow myself some flexibility.

But um Okay, good to know. Just great to have that. that. that. My favorite. So, out of out of the three of us, I'm probably the biggest nut when it comes to tracking data stuff. There's three things I I I I use and I like uh steps. So, I like to see So, having some sort of step count, I like some sort of a sleep monitor to to to do my sleep score. And then a consistent body fat test. fat test. fat test. That's it. And they're and again, they're not endall bealls.

No, you're looking at trends, but they're but they give me a really good indicator on trends of activity level, how well that person is probably sleeping and and probably their stress level is normally connected to that and then a body fat test that am I in the right heading in the right direction or not. And none of them are endall beall, but they're like the three best data points in my opinion to to come together with a conclusion of are we moving in the right direction or we not moving in the right direction.

all the other [ __ ] that's out there is is way too much noise in my opinion. Yeah. What you're trying to do with body fat tests uh is you're looking at trends. So after three of these measurements, what direction uh are we moving in? But there's really only a few objective measures that a coach can use. Strength. Strength is one of them. There's no room for error. You did 10 more pounds. That's real. You just lifted 10 more pounds. That's objective. I love strength. That's why I always point to strength.

I love that. How do you feel? That's subjective. But if the person says they feel better, they have more energy, well then it's then it's true. true. true. Body fat percentage. This is more of a trend thing. Don't get But the way you set this up, Kayla, is when you do these scans with your clients, you got to let them know ahead of time. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Because what you don't want to do is come around the back of it and then it sounds like you're trying to comfort them.

them. them. Exactly. Exactly. Exactly. So, what you want to do Yeah. So, hey, that's right. Before I do the scan, here's what I want you to know. There's a there's a there's a margin of error with body fat percentage that's between four and 6%. So, we're just looking at trends here. The R the BMR, we're going to ignore that. That is that is almost never accurate. The only real accurate way to measure is is I'm going to have you track for about 10 days. And if for, you know, here's an example and then tell them about yourself.

So, we're going to ignore that number and we're just going to look at So, you got to let them know ahead of time. Otherwise, what happens as a coach is somebody comes out of it and they're disappointed and then it sounds like you're trying to like comfort them. comfort them. comfort them. Yeah. Yeah. And then and then they're like, "Do I believe you or not?" Maybe they're just trying to make me feel better. better. better. The best the best coaches are coaches that do a good job from the jump forecasting.

forecasting. forecasting. So, and that's and that's everything like letting your clients know like, "Hey, I I expect that we're going to have some plateau weeks. I expect that we're going to see numbers like this." I And so, the more you can forecast for them of what's normal and it's okay, it's no big deal, then this stuff isn't a big deal. And it's literally is reminding them like this is for me just so I know that the adjustments that I'm making are aligning with I don't want you to get hung up on the body fat test number.

I don't want you to get hung up on the BMR number. This is just data points for me that I I'm moving you in the right direction. forecasting that to go in and do that so they get it and then trying to answer their questions of but why is this saying this and why did we go up 1% and then they start freaking out and then you're trying to backpedal and explain yourself versus saying I don't even give a [ __ ] if this says we went up 2% I just want to see where it's at because it'll give me an indication of where I want to go from there and so I use it like when I talk to my clients that's how I communicate before we do any of this testing it's like it's not an end all beall it's just more data for me to know that I'm doing the right things with you.

you. you. Okay, that sounds great. Thank you guys so much. That definitely helps. Um I think forecasting is definitely the way to go now with these new scans because people are getting very hung up on those numbers. So that's super helpful. 100% 100%. Great job. Yep. Yep. Yep. Thank you guys. You got it. Yeah. Uh if it if coaches know uh ahead of time how to use these tools and then explain how they're going to be used, very valuable. very valuable. very valuable. Yes. If you don't do that, well, the tools start to do the coaching.

Uh, and then then then everything's reactionary. everything's reactionary. everything's reactionary. Exactly. And then it's going to suck. You're in a bad place. Like, hey, but my body fat went up a percent. Well, it's okay. You're doing then you sound like you're just trying to make damage control. By the way, this is the type of stuff uh I didn't mention it to Kayla, but this is the type of stuff that is in our course. We teach this is what we teach. This is the type of stuff that we teach.

And I I think this is the stuff that uh all the best national certifications out there that go over, you know, human physiology, biomechanics, nutrition, you know, exercise science. This is coaching. This is what will make a really good coach. You can have all those s degrees, all this stuff like that. But if you don't know how to do things like this with clients, that is the difference between you being a good and a great coach. Our next callers are Hannah and Tyler from Ohio. Hey, what's up, guys?

What's happening, guys? happening, guys? happening, guys? Hi. Hi. Hi. I'm going to go ahead and read off here so I don't forget anything and I hopefully remember how to talk this whole time. whole time. whole time. I'm so excited to see you guys. Like I kind of can't believe this is real life. So, um I just wanted to take uh to thank you for taking my call and for the information you put out. You have shifted the way that I view health and fitness and I have exclusively been running your program since 2019.

Um and don't see myself changing that anytime soon. I'm a 37year-old female um mom of a two and fouryear-old. I've been working with a functional health practitioner for the past year due to low testosterone. And honestly, this is the best I've felt since before having kids. Uh my energy levels are a lot better, um more constant and consistent, and I don't have the energy crashes and significant fatigue that I was having before. Um, I usually sit around 122 to 124 lbs prior to having kids. Um, and that was what my weight was also prior to working with this functional health practitioner.

So, I got down to my pre-baby weight. Um, and I would estimate I was around 20 to 22% body fat. Um, I'm 5'4 currently, 130 to 132 lbs depending on the day. Um, I just hit a PR deadlifting at 2:25 and it was one of those ego things where I felt like I could do more, but I didn't want to injure myself. I'm a PT, so I try to like uh live the way I I teach people. Um, anyway, I just did a body scan at my gym and it estimated that I had 24% body fat, which feels about right to me um with how my clothes fit and what I look like.

So, I know this is still a healthy range, but I'm having a hard time psychologically with this. Um, as I work out very consistently, focus on protein and cycle through your programs pretty religiously. At this higher weight and body fat, I feel like I look soft and my definition doesn't show unless I am flexing hard. Um, and I'm a physical therapist and a former D1 athlete and have been told a perfectionist at times, but I really want to let go of that mentality. And listening to your podcast over the past 5 to 6 years has helped me significantly with this to the point where I'm hoping to help coach people through this at some point and potentially even go into training or functional health in the next 5 years.

Um, however, I'm just really struggling to know if this new weight and size is just a healthier place for my body to be at this point in my life or if I can try to get back to where I was previously where I felt more athletic and confident um and actually fit into my clothes. Um, I know it doesn't seem like a huge difference, but with this size and weight, um, I basically need to buy like all new pants cuz none of my pre-baby stuff fits anymore.

Any help or guidance is appreciated. I'm currently running MAPS performance and prior to that I ran MAPS strong which I loved and that's where I hit my PR um deadlifting. Hey, great question. And I I love that your husband's here for support cuz I can see his face while you're talking. Yeah, I have I have a feeling he's waiting for us to say what he's been saying. saying. saying. I'm reading his mind I'm reading his mind right now and I'm going to guess what you're thinking.

But he's like, "You're kicking ass, honey. You're doing such a good job. like you're so hard on yourself. yourself. yourself. So, here's the deal. As the athlete and you kicking in, you are you listen, you're killing it. You're doing really well. Your body fat percentage very healthy. You're super strong. 225 at your size is really, really good. And you probably could have lifted more, but you want to be really good with your technique. And you just had two babies. By the way, in your in your email, both C-section.

C-section. C-section. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And your last pregnancy was rough. It says you had uh you were you were nauseous the entire time. Really, really bad. bad. bad. Yeah. Okay. Yeah. Okay. And and you had two kids within three years. three years. three years. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And how old is your youngest? Two. He's two and a half technically. Um. Um. Um. Yeah. Listen, you're you're doing way you're being way too hard on yourself. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Here's my advice for you. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Buy new clothes.

Okay. Stop worrying about it. Buy new clothes. Also, clothes. Also, clothes. Also, you're going to continue to see your body progress. body progress. body progress. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. You You just got out of Yeah. You're You're only You're just now getting in the good spot. Yeah, it takes so I've trained a lot of women uh pre- during and post uh babies. Okay. And I I really hate the fitness space for how it communicates uh to women postpartum. They get this idea that 8 months postpartum like you're back in shape and I'm I'm back to my old size, whatever.

That's crap. Every woman I've ever trained who was disciplined and you know, even an athlete like you, I've trained a few that were athletes uh in college. college. college. Yeah. It takes like two years before you actually start to feel like yourself. You know exactly what I'm talking about. Uh yeah. So, and you still got a little you got still little guys at home, so it's still like hectic. Uh sleep can still be a bit off. Like you're Yeah. You're being way hard on yourself on if you just stay the course.

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Stop judging yourself so harshly. Go and buy some new clothes right now. You're you're going to keep your body's going to keep progressing on its own. But if you if you beat yourself up, if you let that happen, you're going to set yourself back. I'm I'm going to tell you too something that I feel like has been the theme of the calls today that we've been telling people too is you're far better off trying to build into the body that you want than thinking about trying to cut into the body you want to, which is a tendency that everybody seems to want to have.

have. have. Like the fact that you're you're hitting PRs right now is just like lean into that. keep getting stronger. Keep building muscle. building muscle. building muscle. And don't try and cut because you feel like, oh, I'm I could lose a little bit or I want to lean out a little bit. Like, you're just now getting in this good place. Your body is starting to respond where you're hitting PRs. Like, lean into that and get stronger and and you're going to be happy you're going to be happy and six six months from now, you're going to look back and go like, "Oh, shit." Like, shit." Like, shit." Like, build build what you want.

Don't cut into what you want. So, if you if you just kind of like keep building, you know, slow reverse diet, feed the body, feed your hormones, feed the muscle, you're probably going to get down. If you're walking around 24% right now and you got a two and a four-year-old and you're lifting weights and everything that I read here, you'll probably settle around 21%. Just by building into it, Yeah. without trying to cut. Yeah. Just by being having fun with your workouts, enjoying yourself, eating, feeding the muscle, you'll probably fall somewhere around 21 22%.

With good shape, good muscle, good strength, the whole deal. Good hormone profile, the whole deal. whole deal. whole deal. Yeah. How long have you been working with the functional medicine practitioner? practitioner? practitioner? Year. Year. Year. Um about a year. And when I started, I had I think my what's like mind-blowing to me right now, um is like you always you want to be lean. I don't in the fitness world like I've lifted weights for decades at this point and I feel the best since I started doing your programs.

So I just respect you guys so much and I truly believe what you say and I will do um I will do what you're saying. I I it resonates with me because when I was leaner before working with the functional health practitioner, I felt terrible. Like I've just felt but I felt like I looked like I wanted to look. So that's it's so hard I think. Um and I really I do want to get over that and I do believe because I'm like I feel good.

I have energy. Hannah, it is a terrible trade. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. 3% body fat is a terrible trade to feel like crap. like crap. like crap. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. That's not a good trade. And right now in your head, you don't realize that, but if you if I were to snap my fingers and have you switch back and forth, give you an hour there and an hour back, you'd be like, "No, no, no. I'm good." By the way, the the I I really do think you're going to settle probably around 21 22% body fat with more muscle and a faster metabolism.

Probably you're going to settle. to settle. to settle. You'll you'll look better than what you did when you were leaner and you'll feel better. better. better. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. But you got to build into it. Yeah, totally. What are your calories at right now? right now? right now? Um at least 22 to 2400. And that's that's since I started um working with the function. I like I don't track religiously, but when I do, it's pretty easy for me to get about that. If you Yeah. I bet you when you're around 22, you're probably hungry.

Yeah. And I felt like it wasn't even the hunger. It was more like the just feeling almost ill because I just felt depleted. depleted. depleted. Yeah. Yeah. You need to be probably consistently 24 25. Like don't ever go below that is where I would have you. And you you'll actually get leaner with that because you're going to build into it. it. it. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Okay. Okay. Okay. Yeah. That's where I keep you. That should be the focus. Yeah. Stop being so hard on yourself. You're you're doing so great.

Yeah. You're doing really really great. Yeah. you're going to keep you're going to keep improving, but if you place that hyperfocus on yourself, uh that's going to it's going to set you to that's going to it's going to set you back for sure. Focus on getting strong on the lifts, feeding the body, uh reverse diet and continuing to go up. You could easily continue to go up calories, too, by the way. You could land you could end up landing at a place like 27 2,800 calories easily, calories easily, calories easily, easily.

And and and getting stronger. If you do that, you'll build into the body that you're you desire right now. Don't think about cutting into it. Like you're you're as low as I would want you calorie-wise. I want to keep reversing you. And the signs of hitting PRs is such a good sign. We're moving in the right direction. right direction. right direction. Yeah. I think if you consistently stayed about 2425, never went below it, you'd see this nice body composition change. Okay. I appreciate that. Yeah. When I first started your programs, I was using straps for 145 and I was like barely doing that.

And now I felt like I could definitely just hold on to the bar at 225, no problem. It's like crazy how much your programming helps. And um what would you suggest? cuz I just came off as strong and then performance and um that's pretty much all I'm doing. I do a little bit of the elliptical, but I mostly just walk and do your programs. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Um right now I didn't know like what to do next. I guess symmetry would be good. I think you would appreciate it too as a PT.

Yeah, Yeah, Yeah, that's so hard though. It's so hard cuz I love the heavy like stuff. But I do I haven't done that one yet. I do have it. She can lean into that still though. I mean power lift. Go power lift. You can do powerlift. Yeah, because you did you've done strong, you've done performance, you've done performance. So, always my recommendation is a cycle of performance or symmetry a year. So, always cycle one of those in there because that'll keep you balanced really well. So, if you're as long as you're cycling performance or symmetry once a year and then go if you really enjoy the lifting heavy, I'd push you into power lift.

lift. lift. Yeah. You want to do power lift? But you got to eat 2500 got to you got to eat 2500 calories a day for that one. Yeah. Yeah. Um I can do that. I I felt so good lifting that 225. I made him come out and watch me cuz I was like good for like you're going to witness this and I did football out here. out here. out here. So that I feel like that would Oh yeah. I'd love to see you do powerlift. Powerlift and feed.

Powerlift and feed. And if you're hungry, feed. So even if you're landing at 2500 calories and your appetite, eat more. So that's what I I really focus on the strength there. We get strong and we can reverse diet right now even more. That'd be a huge win in the next three months. Sounds great. Sounds great. Sounds great. All right. All right. Awesome. Awesome. Awesome. You guys keep it up. Yeah. Thanks for calling in. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Thank you so much. You got it, guys. I can I can literally hear his thoughts.

Oh, yeah. Yeah. I feel like that's why he was on here. That was like a Yeah, you better tell him like what's going on. going on. going on. Well, let's let's see what the guys have to say. to say. to say. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Maybe maybe I'm wrong. I don't know. Cuz I know what he's thinking. He's thinking like, "Honey, you're killing it. Like, you are really hard on yourself." yourself." yourself." Of course. Of course. Of course. But you don't want to hear it from your I get it.

But man, she is I get it. But man, she is doing really well. Very very common uh with ex- alathletes. Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah. Very very common with exathletes. So when she said that, I was just like, oh, she's got a 2-year-old at home and her pregnancies were rough. I mean, if you read the people, she didn't read the whole the whole email, but uh I mean, she was diagnosed with hypermesis. I mean, she that's like where you're vomiting all the time because you're so nauseous.

Two C-sections. Remember, they cut through your core. your core. your core. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Uh and so and she's doing phenomenal. Yeah. And just hit a PR what a couple days ago. It's just like, no, we're on the right track. You just stay, you know, it is. It was the theme of the calls today is like, you know, build into the body you want versus trying to cut into the body you want will serve you so much more. That's right. That's right. That's right. All right.

I know you like that episode. If you did, check this one out. One of the keys to fat loss is protein. It's true. If you're not eating a high protein diet, you're not going to burn as much body fat as you can. So, today's episode, we're going to talk about the smartest ways to use protein for fat burn and to build muscle. You got to watch this. watch this. watch this. I wish I understood this earlier in my career. I think it was probably almost 10 years in when I started to just focus on this with clients.

I knew it was important, but I don't know how important. Yeah, I also did I knew it was important and but I also