Why Kindness and Niceness Are Not the Same Thing | Sharon Salzberg

Key Takeaway

Before speaking, ask yourself four critical questions: Is it true? Is it beneficial? Is it the right time? Am I speaking with kindness? This ancient Buddhist framework for 'right speech' transforms daily conversations from potential minefields into opportunities for genuine connection. Truth isn't just avoiding blatant lies—it's excavating what's really happening beneath surface accusations to find the deeper vulnerability driving your words.

Episode Overview

Sharon Salzberg, co-founder of the Insight Meditation Society, explores Buddhist communication strategies through the lens of 'right speech'—one element of the eight-fold path. She discusses how to navigate difficult conversations, balance truthfulness with kindness, and avoid the tangled webs created by deception, offering practical frameworks for more skillful daily communication.

Full Transcript

Transcript of Why Kindness and Niceness Are Not the Same Thing | Sharon Salzberg from 10% Happier. Auto-generated from episode audio; may contain minor errors.

Hey everybody, welcome to the 10% Happier podcast. I'm your host Dan Harris. Today we're talking about Buddhist communication strategies. You've heard me say this before maybe uh but I think about it all the time. The fact that we're talking to each other all day every day, most of us. And and yet very few of us are ever taught how to have successful uh communications. Uh, turns out the Buddha uh had a lot to say about this and we're going to talk about the Buddhists uh communication strategies with uh Sharon Salsburg.

We're going to talk about such questions as um how do you deal with difficult people? Is it ever okay to gossip? Uh how can you be kind without being a doormat? Um uh are white lies ever okay even if they're motivated by kindness? There's a lot of uh juicy stuff in here. Um uh Sharon Salsberg uh is a legend in the um meditation community. Uh she's one of the co-founders of the Insight Meditation Society, which is a very well-known now 50-year-old uh Buddhist uh retreat center in Barry, Massachusetts.

She's also written 13 books, including Real Happiness uh and her landmark work uh loving kindness. Uh, and Sharon has uh, very generously agreed to teach a uh, live 8-week series on what's known as the eight-fold path, which is one of the principal and foundational Buddhist lists. She will be teaching this on my meditation app, the 10% with Dan Harris meditation app, starting on July 12th. And, uh, it'll be every Sunday, a live hourlong session uh, over the course of eight weeks. And if you miss the sessions, you can always watch them um uh on demand.

Afterwards, these sessions will be uh deep dives into the uh uh eight-fold path uh by a a true master. And uh on each session, she will guide a meditation and then talk a little bit about one aspect of the eight-fold path and then take your questions. So, it's an opportunity not only to learn from but also to be in dialogue with an incredible Buddhist teacher. All that said, we'll be talking to Sharon Salsberg uh about uh what's called Write Speech after this quick break. I was playing around this morning with the new Rosetta Stone Sapphire app, which is really cool and really intuitive, really easy to use.

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So, Oh, shucks. Oh, shucks. Oh, shucks. Always awesome to have you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Before we get into uh the Buddhist uh recommendations for communicating effectively with other human beings, um let me just step back and ask you a a broader question. This advice on effective communication is delivered as part of what's known as the eight-fold path. eight-fold path. eight-fold path. What is the eight-fold path? Well, the eight-fold path is actually a framework. Uh it's meant to be a practical, we would say actionable framework for moving from suffering to the end of suffering.

Moving from constriction and limitation to life that's more expansive and open. It's moving from in a way isolation to to freedom and connection. So those are lofty terms, freedom and connection. Yeah. connection. Yeah. connection. Yeah. How would they play out in a in a in a generic human life? Well, there are different aspects to the the eight-fold path. Like I think if you're experiencing you're experiencing you're experiencing loneliness, uh, alienation, if you have a sense that your life is maybe built on a kind of cultural deception, deception, deception, like maybe all your life you thought uh endless accumulation would keep you safe and keep change from happening.

Cuz that's in a way what we're conditioned to, what we're taught. If you're brought up to believe it's a doggy dog world and you shouldn't help anybody else cuz they're not going to help you. And if you're brought up to believe that strength is vengefulness and loving kindness or compassion are stupid and will make you weak or sentimental, then we need to unpack all that and and realize I do want to be happy. I want a fulfilled life. I want not to feel so burdened by loneliness and all of those things.

But how? You know, and that's why even though the concepts are lofty, they're really meant to be like, let's experiment with this and let's try this and are you different? Are you better? Do you feel more fulfilled? And so on. So, it's a very practical approach. Do you have to be a Buddhist to practice this aspect of Buddhism? No. In fact, one of the things I've enjoyed about the eight-fold path and and uh it's also embedded you as you know in the four noble truths that there's suffering in life.

There's a reason for that. There are causes there's an end a possible end or sessation and there is the path the eight-fold path. It's a marker of non sectarianism actually like I remember when at the insight meditation society uh years and years ago we brought over kind of the patriarch of our lineage Mahazi Sadov from Burma and people would ask him you know like is it worth following this other teacher or this other approach or this other faith or you know what about going here and what about combining and what about doing this and and rather than saying, "Yeah, we got the goods and everyone else is inferior or anything like that," he would just say, "Look to see if the eight-fold path is there." Look to see if it if it seems to you another mark of the eight-fold path is that it's holistic.

It covers like our inner life and disciplines like with mindfulness and concentration. It also covers things that are very practical and day-to-day like livelihood and and the way we speak to one another. So he would say look to see if there's a genuinely holistic path there that's going to be integrated that's going to have these different elements and if so it's good you know and so it wasn't a sense of like uh we're better or you know you've got to stay within the confines the languaging of Buddhism or anything like that said look for these elements and then you know it's okay.

You mentioned the four noble truths. Um, let me see if I can provide a little context here and and then but please fact check me because I'm you you know more way more about this than I do. But the Buddha after he got enlightened, you know, according to the to the legend, he got enlightened when he was 36 after spending uh his early life as a as a am I you're making a face about 36. Was I wrong? wrong? wrong? I was checking. 35 I think.

35. Okay. 35. Okay. 35. Okay. 35. 35. 35. No, I was I had to calculate cuz he left home at 29. Right. Right. and he spent six years doing those other things. So, so up until 29, he was this, you know, this spoiled prince who lived this incredible life. And then he had a bit of a a spiritual experience where he realized, you know, life is is um you know, he is going to end in death and and illness and old age and um and these things are non-negotiable.

And so, he goes off on a spiritual quest and he lives for six years and he like beats the out of himself. He does what's called self-mortification. and he doesn't eat. He like stands on one foot all day, does all these crazy meditative practices until he realizes, well, no, there's there's got to be a middle path between, you know, self-mortification and self-indulgence. And that's when he uh gets enlightened. And after he gets enlightened at age 35, not age 36, um he um uh goes and finds some of his former uh meditation buddies and he delivers uh this this diagnosis of the human condition called the four noble truths.

The first is life is suffering, which is a bit of a me mistransation. It just means life is bumpy if you're living it without wisdom. Um uh the second is uh the the cause of the bumpiness, the cause of our sufferings is uh is craving or thirst wanting things to be a specific way in a world where everything's changing all the time. The third is there's a way out of this. And the fourth noble truth is actually a list within a list and that's the eight-fold path which is basically the Buddha's cookbook or recipe for enlightenment.

a aka a healthy life. So, is all of that reasonably accurate? It is. And I don't know if uh you know, but I'm about to embark on writing a book on suffering in the end of suffering or dooka and the end of duka. And I like the word bumpiness because the uh the word dooka and pi it doesn't just mean suffering although that's a very common translation. It's also insecurity, distress, unease. And the example they use, of course, is a chariot because they're all about chariots.

And uh the axle and the wheel are not aligned. So it is like a a bumpy ride. So that that's a great way of saying it. saying it. saying it. In your conversation uh with my colleague, our senior producer, Marissa Schneiderman, and she gave me notes on your conversation in order to prepare me for this conversation with you. There was a line that she said that you like from the Buddha, something about abandoning the unskillful. Can you say more about that? I mean, that's another way of describing the eight-fold path.

It's like what do we do to have a happier, more fulfilled life? Like what do we actually do? And so, um, this is long, long been one of my favorite passages from the Buddha where he said, "Abandon the unskillful." And the unskillful or the unh wholesome are those habits you know um that we get lost in. It's not just the appearance of the habits of mind but it's the ways we get lost. We get overwhelmed by greed or anger or delusion something like that. Um he said abandon the unskillful.

You can abandon the unskillful. If it were not possible I would not ask you to do it. And if abandoning the unskillful were to lead to more limitation or unhappiness and and uh disconnection, I would not ask you to do it. But because it leads to happiness and fulfillment, so I say abandon that which is unskillful. And then he went on to say cultivate the good. Which you know in our minds would be like loving kindness or compassion, generosity. Cultivate the good. You can cultivate the good.

If it were not possible, I would not ask you to do it. And then that last section as well. But I lived, as I told Marissa, I lived for a long time boyed up by the Buddha thinks I can do it. If it were not possible, I would not ask you to do it. And I took that so to heart in the midst of all of my uncertainty and insecurity and fear and everything I was really marked by, you know, in those days. And and it's like, wow, he thinks I can do it.

So step by step, let's put it into practice. You've told the story many times, but can you just give us a little bit more context on, you know, how you came to Buddhism and and you said you were marked by things like insecurity, etc., etc., uh, I I have to say, having known you for a little while, you came by it honestly. honestly. honestly. Yeah. I uh went to college when I was 16 and having skipped two grades as a product of the New York City public school system.

And in my sophomore year of college, I took an Asian philosophy course because there was a philosophy requirement and I looked at that schedule and I thought, "Oh, that fits nicely. That's like on Tuesday or something." So, I chose that one. And it totally changed my life in two ways. One was uh in in learning about Buddhism, they talked about of course the four noble truths and the Buddha talking about suffering. And for many people that's kind of a bummer of a message, you know, but for me it was like so enveloping.

It was so inclusive. It's like I like many people had had a very traumatic and painful childhood. And like for many people, my family was one where this was never ever spoken about. and I don't know what to do with all of those feelings inside of me. And I heard that there is suffering in life. And it was like for the first time in my life, I didn't feel so alone and I didn't feel so different and kind of cast aside, you know, and I thought, "Wow, I belong.

You know, it's not just me. It's not that I'm weird, you know, this is this is part of life." And and then I heard in the context of that class that there were practices and methods that if you wanted to do them, they're called meditation. You could be a lot happier. And I was going to college in Buffalo, New York. Looked around Buffalo. Couldn't see it anywhere. This is 1969, 1970. 1970. 1970. And so I did this completely outrageous, almost unthinkable thing looking back. I, you know, I'd grown up in New York City, went to college in Buffalo.

I'd never even been to California and I'd created an independent study project. I said I want to go to India and study meditation. So they said okay and off I went. I left in uh 1970 you know the beginning of that fall semester. I uh looked around India. I didn't really find I wanted something very practical. Wasn't interested in a belief system or becoming a Buddhist or assuming an identity or rejecting anything else. I wanted to know how to do it. How should I really put this into practice?

And it took a long time to find and it actually uh was in large measure because I heard Dan Gleman way back when give a talk in New Delhi at a yoga conference. He at the time was a graduate student at Harvard studying meditation and psychology. And for some reason he was invited to give a talk at this conference. And at the end of the talk he said that he was going to go to this town called Bgaya which is where the Buddha was enlightened and he was going to do this 10day immersive retreat in meditation meditation meditation that was considered a very practical direct transmission of these tools.

And I thought that's it. That's what I'm looking for. And it was what I was looking for. So I followed him along with you know all these other people. We followed him to Bodga Gaya and and did this intensive meditation retreat together and that was the beginning. I love that story and just to say Dan Gleman who was referenced there sometimes known as Daniel Gleman uh went on to write the seminal book emotional intelligence and has been on this show many many times. I can drop some links to his prior appearances in the show notes.

But you know, I just that that story and all of the karma and kismmet and coincidence and happen stance that goes into it. Um, you know, it's it it's for me very consequential because without you having taken a flyer and gone to India and then running into Dan Gleman and then going to Bo Gaia and where you met you know Joseph Goldstein and and and you know that that all led to that was a big stream. There were many streams through which Buddhism arrived in America.

But that is a big one and uh and it is the form of Buddhism that that that later you know ended up in in in on my desk and that spoke to me and and so yeah it's a it is of of a genuine karmic moment. No no no question. Well even when I when I said it was the beginning I thought well maybe not for Joseph. He'd already been there for years. years. years. So, So, So, but one of the key causes and conditions for what what totally for the the massive like to use a type of word I don't normally use but like the massive blessing of of of insight meditation into into the American consciousness.

Yeah. Just back to the eight-fold path, Sharon, as I understand it, there are three kind of uh and you referenced this a little bit earlier, but there are three kind of baskets of uh there um so there are eight entries in the eight-fold path obviously, but there are they can be grouped into three distinct baskets. One is the kind of philosophical understanding, the other is um an ethical conduct in the world and the third is you know how you practice in your own mind. We chose right speech which is um what we're going to talk about today and that's in the ethical conduct or sometimes in in the language of poly in which the Buddhist teachings were written down.

Um it's called sila s i l a um and I'm interested in uh right speech or uh wise speech depending on how you um want to translate the the way the uh the Buddha talked about it. Um, I'm interested in it because um, and I'll probably have said this in the introduction, but we spend most of our days in conversation. It is kind of like the principal unit of exchange for homo sapiens. And yet, we're almost never, most of us taught how to do it. And I find it endlessly fascinating that the Buddha had real advice for doing so.

Yeah. And I should also say uh what just came into my mind that my colleague my friend Sylvia Bourstein whom I know you you've recently spoken to calls it the eight-fold dot eight-fold dot eight-fold dot because um it's it's a little bit circular. We think of a path as very linear like you start here and then you go to the middle place then you're at the end. You never go back unless you're heading back. Uh but on this path you don't want to go backwards. But um you know we revisit elements of it all the time.

And so in terms of those three divisions classically it starts with like right uh intention or right thought right view. And that's considered almost like this is worth trying. This is worth experimenting with. Um there's cause and effect. There's possibility of happiness here. But it's not like a a clarified view like I really get in a whole different way how the universe works and you know what makes me happy and what doesn't that comes much later and in practical terms when we speak about the path sometimes we do start with sila because that's what we can do right now we don't realize that we wouldn't even try I mean why would you you know think about let me try to be more truthful more truthful more truthful you you know, unless there was some inkling that yeah, it's it's so much suffering to feel, you know, like I told these lies and did I tell enough and did I lie to the right people and what a burden, you know, maybe I want a clearer, simpler way of being.

And so it doesn't have to be fully formed that kind of right view, but there's something that has us say, let's let's try this. Let's try putting this into action. And so often when the uh eight-fold path is taught uh people will start with those elements of of sila cuz that's what we do. But traditionally you actually start with right view support for today's episode comes from square and they've got big news. During Square's by-anual releases event, they launched a wave of innovative new tools to help local businesses run faster, smarter, and more profitably.

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There's right um action, uh which I think is explanator, self-explanatory, and then right speech. And uh like I said, I find I find that's what I I I chose this as the focus with you because I I think it's so interesting that that you can you there's good advice on offer and that you can practice it. It's actually a set of skills. Um and and as you like to teach it, there really like four questions to ask yourself before you open your mouth. Let's start with question number one.

What what is that? uh is it true what you're saying but there are levels to that you know I know um you've also worked with uh Dan Clareman and Mud Taniskar uh who are amazing uh communications experts and I've seen that uh some of the even formulaic kind of tools of modern communication communication communication understanding um really reflect this this question of is it true? So for example, you know, when a communications person will suggest using eye language and not you language, not just being accusatory and laying all of one's response and reactions on the other person.

I've actually seen Dan and Modita work in that way with people and it was very touching. uh they've come to the insight meditation society in the past, worked with staff and I saw one exchange that was something like a staff person saying to another staff person um basically you're a terrible person and you know you don't pay attention to others and you're uh you're reckless and whatever. And by continually having the person go back and use eye language, not as they would say disguised you language, but eye language, it came to I was so hoping to be closer to you.

And when you walked by me with lunch tray or something like that and you didn't sit down and you didn't even look at me, I just thought, "Wow, you know, maybe it's not going to happen." And I was like so disappointed and and as I was witnessing this this whole exchange I thought wow that's actually the truth of what somebody was going through and it's not that in every context we want to be that vulnerable vulnerable vulnerable but I thought you know truthfulness is not just the surface level of not telling a blatant lie it's really going deep within to see what's the truth of my experience in this moment and do I want to express it?

So I really like that aspect of it. And of course there is the more surface level as well which is still very significant. Um I often do tell the story about um once I was uh staying in a house in Western Mass and a friend of ours had gone to India alone without her husband to do this retreat but she didn't want her mother to know that she'd gone alone and uh so she basically lied to her mother and said I'm going with my husband and we'll be back in this and that date and here's a phone number you can call if you ever, you know, want to try to reach me.

That was the phone number of the house I was in. So, just a few days before our friend was returning, the mother called and uh my friend whose house it was who answered the phone forgot that he was supposed to lie. And so this woman said, "Have you heard from my daughter or her husband?" And he said, "Oh yeah, he was just here for dinner." And then he remembered. And so he quickly said, well, he went to India with her and he didn't stay as long.

So he came back and right away uh she really felt she was not being told the truth. So we everybody hung up and then she called a neighbor and asked them to call us to see, you know, maybe we would tell her the truth even if we wouldn't tell her herself the truth. And so these strangers started calling us and we had to lie to everybody else. And then we realized she was going to call around to other numbers she had. So we had to start calling people and saying, you know, this is this woman's going to call, you have to lie, and this is what you have to say.

And it just kept getting more and more and more complicated. And right in the middle of that, ironically, we started getting these anonymous obscene phone calls. And you know, normally you might just say, "Well, I'm not going to answer the phone for a while." But in this case, we had to answer the phone in case it was someone we had to lie to. And then finally, whoever was talking to her couldn't bear it anymore. And she said, "I'm going to tell you the truth. She went to India without him.

She's fine. She's coming back like tomorrow or something." You know, it's really it's really okay. And the woman had been lied to so much. It's like she didn't know what to believe anymore. She didn't know what was true. And even stranger, it's like we hardly knew it was true anymore because we've gotten so engaged in this web of deception. So even on that uh blatant level, I think the tool we have, which really is a blessing, is just self-reflection like how does this make me feel?

And what's the consequence of living in this way? saying what would happen if I chose to skillfully tell the truth in these circumstances. Just to go back and underline I language. Um that is the letter I language in so speaking in your own experience as opposed to quote unquote you language which is often accusatory. You're a dirt bag. Whatever. I have trouble with you when you do X is um often a much more skillful way to communicate and as you pointed out really and a broad understanding of truth is a more truthful way to communicate.

So but but then you went on to tell the story about how lying can be disastrous. Um, I completely I completely buy your argument and I think everybody listening will buy your argument that if you're even 3% mindful while you're lying, you'll see that it doesn't feel good. Um, but are there not circumstances where a white lie makes sense? My wife, who always looks good no matter what she's wearing, but say hypothetically she was wearing an outfit that I didn't like. This has never happened. But just say she was wearing an outfit that I didn't like and she asked me how she looked.

What is wrong with me saying you look great so I can get us out the door and we're not late to the party? Well, there are questions of uh intention, you know, which is always a crucial crucial kind of factor in in looking at ethical conduct which we can talk about. But there's also you reminded me and I was very amused by that. Um, you know, I've had many conversations with friends where somebody uh may present their creative work to you and you really think it it's terrible or not very good and what do you say?

So, we practice like um someone told me once they say I couldn't be more surprised surprised surprised or you must be very proud of that rather than saying I don't know about that. But again, you know, context is also very important. It's like if someone is sincerely asking you for feedback, that's a different thing. And then then saying it as much and you know, not like you're a terrible writer, you know, but I found myself uh a little lost here. or I wonder if there's a way you could say it or you know I so much yearned to know what your experience really was in this moment and what was going on inside or you know there are ways of offering feedback that are a little more encouraging than you know this is a waste of time.

Um, but then there there are just these sort of more more more uh detached things, you know, like you're not really being asked for feedback. You're being asked for praise and and maybe you can't get there, you know, in an honest way. But it's fun to imagine what you would say. And then if somebody said it's me, I start thinking, huh, they didn't like what I did. I guess they're just trying to, you know, find a way of cushioning the blow or something like that. I remember I sent my brother, who you also know and are friends with, um I sent him a version of of my forthcoming book several years ago that was sort of long and baggy and self-indulgent and he wrote back, "You put your full self into this.

It's perfect. It's perfect. It's perfect. That's great." That's great." That's great." So, but you you said something before that I want to pick up on that that intention matters here. you know, this has actually like become a contentious issue in intent. Um, in in in some progressive circles there, the argument is it's impact that matters, not your intent. Um, I personally actually I'm not sure I fully agree with that, but um, you know, how would you think of one's intention in the context of right speech?

speech? speech? Well, I had a a great conversation once with Anu Gupta. I don't know if you know his work. Yeah, he's been on the show. Yeah. Yes. So, uh asking him that very question because it's true in social justice framing uh impact is much more important than intention. But you can't deny that in terms of classical Buddhism, intention is really key. And and he was uh he readily reconciled those those points of view. And the framework I usually use is an action. Something we do, something we say, something we hold back from doing or saying, which is also a kind of action has different elements to it.

And the first is intention or motivation. And that is a crucial distinction. You know, if I was picking up an object and handing it to you, all anybody sees is my hand moving down and picking up something and moving it forward. But what is in my heart? What is the intention? you know, maybe I'm giving it to you cuz I like you and I want you to have it or maybe I don't like you and I think you're not going to be able to figure it out.

You know, it's going to drive you crazy here. You know, so it's like the same smile and the same gesture, but it's coming from a totally different place. And so it's a potent potent form of a seed that we're planting. But the next aspect of an action is you could say the skillfulness of the execution. It's mindfulness in context. It's uh cultural context. It's cultural sensitivity. cultural sensitivity. cultural sensitivity. It's understanding like maybe I'm giving you this object out of a very good intention. I don't want to throw it to you or maybe I only have one and there 50 people in the room.

Maybe it's best done privately. We have to really pay attention to where we are and who we're talking to and you know what's the context and and that's sort of where the impact part uh comes alive. you know that we need that sort of sensitivity and awareness. Um, and those two things are not antithetical to one another. They're just different. And I often emphasize that difference because in teaching loving kindness meditation so much a great fear and it's a reasonable fear people express is well I to develop a more loving heart doesn't mean I have to say yes.

I have to give them more money. I have to let them move back in. and I have to let them keep hurting me and the answer is no. You know, you can come from a very and genuinely compassionate motivation. But I call it your best guess of how to behave in that moment in that context most skillfully could be strong boundary or feeling or being kind of fierce, you know, and it might be gentle, it might be strong, you know, it just depends. And that's discernment and wisdom hopefully and understanding.

But that doesn't mean you're not coming from a compassionate place. And so that is a model I use endlessly in in trying to describe like yeah loving kindness doesn't consign us, you know, to being a doormat. It frees us because we can use discernment how we think we should behave or speak or respond in a certain moment. And it's always good, I think, to know your intention. intention. intention. Then in the context of white lies, if your intent, if your intention is to be compassionate, a lot of people think, well, then why can't I tell the white lie?

lie? lie? You might be able to. You know, it's also true though that sometimes that those are consequential and you don't necessarily want it to unfold. It's like what if you told your wife she looked great and she went out and bought 15 more outfits just like that one. You know, depending again, it's it's very contextual. You know, you might just say, "Yeah, you know, it's great." Or you might say, "Wow, you know, uh it's good, but you know what I really liked was what you wore yesterday." I don't know, something like that.

I've just really personally where I've because I've done enough I'm not I'm by no means an advanced meditation practitioner, but I've done enough practice to have a decent mindfulness quotient. Uh, it just feels so terrible when I lie that I just tell the truth, but I try to be tell the truth kindly. Mhm. Mhm. Mhm. You know, like, you know what? I actually I don't love that, but I, you know, I recognize that I'm not I don't have um sophisticated fashion taste. So, if you if you like it, I'm good with it.

But, you know, I like the outfit you tried on right before it, you know. So there's I think there are way I think that personally I think there are ways generally to avoid the white lie. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. First of four questions we've covered it. Is it true? What is the second of the four questions? Is it helpful? You know they say that to make a commitment to say that which is true doesn't mean that you want to blurt out everything that comes into your head.

you know, and um maybe somebody doesn't need to hear that, you know, you didn't think their book was great or, you know, uh maybe uh it's worth being restrained. Maybe it's worth saying something later. Maybe it's worth noting anything at all. Like if somebody is about to give a talk, a public talk, and you know, they're they're pretty anxious about speaking, you know, maybe that's not the time to say, you know, I heard this great talk by this other person, and that's going to be hard to beat, not helpful.

And again, it comes back to motivation. Like, what do you want? That's something I've often said if I was going into an organization or a company to teach and I'd say before a major meeting, before a big conversation, big conversation, big conversation, something like that, ask yourself, what do I really want to see come out of this? You know, do I want to be helpful? Do I want a resolution? Do I want to mentor somebody? Do I want to grind them into dust? Do I want do I want to be seen as right and superior?

Um, you know, take a look. And that that's one way of really coming back to see what your intention is. And if it is genuinely to be helpful, then that again kind of contours what we say or if we'll say something and how we'll say it. your nextdoor neighbor uh and our mutual friend Joseph. Joseph, he has this whole rap he likes to go deliver around the ancient poly term uh s papa lapa um which is uh translated as useless speech. speech. speech. Mhm. Mhm. Mhm.

And and we we do this all day long. Many of us um just say we just say stuff for the sake of saying it. Um, social media has put this on steroids. And Joseph says, "If you're looking underneath the intention when you're about to say something useless, often it's look at me." That to me is like if you're asking us to look at our intentions before we speak, it can be a very humbling thing if we're willing to be honest with ourselves. ourselves. ourselves. Well, there's also I think that's very very true.

And it's there also ways where um if we have the um inspiration you know, we make some experiments. It's like uh when we started teaching in this country and the retreats we were offering were all uh still pretty much that way silent. You know, you speak to a teacher um which is pretty circumscribed. You know, you're not talking about the last movie you saw hopefully. You know, you're talking about your your practice and your internal experience and you may not speak to anyone else for that 10day period.

But I you know sat with you Pandit say for example in 1984 for 3 months he was the only person I talked to uh and so you know when you're about to embark in a period of silence if you choose to it might be you know 2 days 3 days 7 days whatever it is and often as people come on to retreat it's the single most disquing you know uncomfortable thing to think about and people come and say I don't know if I can be silent for two days and uh my partner doesn't think I can be silent or once somebody came and said they're doing a bedding pool in my office cuz they don't think I can be silent and almost always really at the end of the experience.

It's one of the single most beautiful aspects of having been there. It's like for once in our lives we don't have to present ourselves as interesting or amusing or disturbed or anything. we can just be with ourselves, but we're afraid in general. We're not most of us brought up to be a friend of silence. And so, um, sometimes that useless kind of speech is it's just a way of filling in the gap so that we're not just being. Okay. So, we've done is it true. Is there more to say about is it helpful or should we move on to the third question?

Honestly, I was thinking about um the experience you describe of having a 360 review. review. review. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Which you can describe better than I. And so it seemed from what I've heard about it when what I've heard you talk about it is that it really uh provoked some, you know, great introspection and uh tremendous change. And I know that your your next book is going to cover that, you know, in some way. But that would be an example of something, you know, that uh it's a little bit like embarking on a period of silence.

It's having a certain kind of audacity, you know, to step outside of one's comfort zone and and experiment with a different way of giving and receiving um speech. So, I don't know if you want to say anything about that. Well, very briefly, as you mentioned, I had a 360 review. Uh, this the first one I had was in 2018, so quite a while ago. Um, but it was very humbling experience. I actually remember sending the results to you because they were they were quite harsh. 39 pages, first 11 pages were like positive stuff and the rest of it was just straight beat down.

There are four major buckets of kind of emotional unavailability. unavailability. unavailability. Um a stubbornness, um a dismissiveness, a kind of black and white thinking, overcommitment. overcommitment. overcommitment. I can't remember all the things, but that those are the basic areas. And uh I remember coming to your apartment and talking to you about it afterwards. I was totally distraught, but it it it yes, it's an audacious thing to do to ask for that level of feedback. I don't actually think that it's it's for everyone. Um I it's a it's often used in a corporate context and if it if you don't have good coaching to go with it, it can backfire.

Um I happen to have good coaching and also just know a lot of really wise people like you who can help me with it. The 360 reviewers, the people um it's an anonymous survey of the people you work with. Then in my case, I added in um like my wife and my brother and and and Joseph and um and so it was like a personal and professional 360 review to get a panoramic sense of my strengths and weaknesses and and um the reviewers, the people who were surveyed.

um they were actually engaging in right speech even though a lot of what they said was some of it was harsh and maybe actually some of it crossed the line uh to wrong speech and that it was unkind which we will get to soon but it was certainly solicited. I was asking for their feedback and they were giving it. They weren't talking you know crap behind my back. They were they were giving me feedback in a in a in a context where I asked for it and so it was helpful in in the end.

Right. Yes, deeply I would say uh right below the the the birth of our son and and our marriage as you know the most important thing that has happened to me as a as an adult. It provoked an enormous amount of change and drove me way deeper into your your personal Baywick, Sharon Salsberg of loving kindness um and and a supporter of but I not as I it it forced me to engage much more deeply with those um practices which has been just incalculable in its in its impact.

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Is this the right time to say the thing? Yeah. And I think that's very connected to is it helpful? It's like um uh if you if you have a friend or an acquaintance who just got a really difficult diagnosis and it may not be the time and it may not be that helpful to um give them advice, you know, and a lot of people who are feeling that kind of vulnerability and you know, everything the fear and everything that that goes with that kind of situation uh often tell me they feel a little bombarded you know by advice and uh I use the example in in something I'd written of uh Randas who was also at my very first retreat in 1971 and I've been a friend ever since and after his stroke which was a very very significant stroke.

I remember he was in in the rehab hospital and then he was still living in California and I went to visit him in California and his living room was piled high with you know things people had sent and it was beautiful. It was really a a gesture you know based on how much he had given the world and how he was held and the kind of regard he was held in. But sometimes there would be these notes that accompanied the whatever and it would say like take 15 drops of this and you'll definitely be walking again.

And and I could feel his internal experience of that was pressure and it sort of translated into like will you still love me if it doesn't work? Will you still be here with me or will you see me as having failed you in some way? And when I was there visiting him, one of those arrived and it was a bottle of Ganjis water, water from the Ganis River. And I had a note that said something like, "Take 15 drops of this and you'll you'll be okay within two weeks." And I said, "Don't drink that.

Whatever you do, don't drink that. You'll get color if you drink that." you know, like for God's sake, you know, so um it's the way, you know, like when someone seems to be in their most vulnerable spot, is that the time or is that going to be helpful in the end to impose that kind of pressure which is really just about you, you know, like I saved you in in some way. So again, it's really important to look at intention and to look at at context to try to figure that out.

Just for context on Ram Das for people who don't know who he is, he's a great spiritual teacher and writer. He is perhaps most famous for uh his book Be Here Now, but there are some documentaries on him that are on Netflix that are worth watching and he did have a stroke and um really handled it with uncommon grace. Um in terms of timeliness, there's another tool from the aforementioned Dan Clerman and Muda Nisker who are great communications coach coaches in the Buddhist tradition. um that I found really helpful um you know when I'm talking to somebody who is in you know extremist they're there's something big going on they've gotten a diagnosis or they've made a big mistake and they feel under siege um uh instead of or or they're just anxious about something instead of moving into advice which is generally is not generally what people want uh what generally what I think people want and what I certainly want in these exper in these moments is um just to be seen and heard uh validated.

A tool that I learned from Dan and and Muda is uh reflective listening where you uh simply listen to what somebody's saying and then repeat back the the bones of what they've said to you, the kind of headline version in your own words. Um and and that really is just giving people this incredible gift of of of feeling like they're seen and heard. So anyway, does does that feel like an appropriate thing to say? in this context it does I think very much so and I tell a story somewhere uh which was also from a million years ago you know it's like living in India there's just this array of spiritual gurus and perspectives and methodologies and somebody came to me once this young man and he said I'm thinking of bringing my father um to India to meet this one particular guru whom I I'd also met and he said to me what do you think and I said, "Well, you know, it's sort of like a a hard place.

It's a hard city. It'll be incredibly hot. There'll be bugs if he may not like the food. He might get sick." And anyway, Guru is a little weird. You know, it's like the scene is is uh strange and it might not work, but he didn't listen to me and he went and did it anyway. And it turned out the father fell totally in love with the guru and became like a disciple of the guru and became a teacher in the guru's lineage. like I couldn't have been more wrong.

Um, and I thought back to that moment, you know, where I was like, why was I inter, you know, lacing my view, my experience instead of, as you said, just listening, saying, well, what is it you hope for, you know, and and what's he like, you know, is he um the kind of person that you think would would take offense at at this or, you know, just like actually having a genuine communication communication communication Uh, I just sort of laid out well my experience was, you know, like this and I'm sure it won't be won't be okay.

Why do you think it is that we rush to advice to to or rush to fix um or rush to pontificate in these moments? Is it is it some unease that we're covering up for? Well, no doubt. You know, I mean, I think we're also we tend to be rather self-p preoccupied rather than connecting. You know, it's like we meet somebody and and largely what's going on in our minds is what do they think of me? You know, the day they like me, do they like me more than they've ever liked anyone before?

Oh no, I said something stupid. They hate me. you know, instead of actually uh in a way kind of emptying and being there and taking them in and noticing. And uh one of the detriments to being so self-p preoccupied is that we lose the capacity to be surprised by people, you [snorts] know, and just to have that kind of oh that's interesting and oh boy, that's unexpected. I wouldn't have thought that. And you know, because there's not necessarily genuine connection going on. So, I mean, I think in in the case of just kind of reciting advice, you know, it's it's about being seen as right, you know, and having the correct opinion and, you know, maybe being remembered as the one who warned you off against doing that thing or whatever.

And and it's a pretty lonely way of being in the end because we're not actually connecting in in a genuine way. Fourth question is I think the thorniest in some ways. So just to reset again uh is it true? Is it helpful? Is it timely? The fourth is is it kind? So I have a million questions for you about this, but but why don't you just set the table? table? table? Well, I would go back to that model that I I was talking about of the intention behind an action and then our best guess of what's most skillful in that moment in time.

in time. in time. as a way of expressing something because um we can look at what our motive is. It's like do I want to be seen as right? Do I want to try to be helpful? Do I want to um extend some compassion? This person's going through something really hard, you know, and do I just want to acknowledge that in in terms of, you know, is that my intention is to say you're not so alone in some way, you know? So the kindness is embedded in the intention.

One of the things I'm sort of liking these days out of current maybe pop psychology is the distinction between being kind and being nice, you know. And so the nice part would have to do with that second aspect of action which is the the expression or or the manifestation the skillful or unskillful manifestation of of the intention in that moment. And so maybe there is a time when it feels most appropriate appropriate appropriate um to be strong, you know, and and not to just try to please the other person, but hopefully in a skillful way to say what we feel we have to say or or to have a strong boundary or to say no or or whatever it might be.

And and the the kindness is still there and that we're not trying to harm somebody. We're not trying to hurt anybody perhaps. And yet, you know, what seems most appropriate is uh is not saying yes and being sweet and being meek or something like that. There's another uh classic Sharon story that's coming to mind uh that's not fully apppropo because it's it's not it's not on speech. uh it's not totally on point on the subject of speech but I think it is illuminating in this context that that you early on in your days in India and you were still young and new to the practice and uh you were listening to some teachers talking about the importance of kindness and you said something to the effect of like what if I go out on the street and and here in India and there there are pickpockets all over the place what do I do should I let them pick my pick my pockets and the teacher said no you should very compassionately smack them with your umbrella umbrella umbrella And And And okay, I'm going to tell you what really happened.

happened. happened. Okay. Okay. Okay. Cuz that that is one of my stories and and one of my experiences. And it's so funny cuz we're talking about, you know, a long time ago. I mean, the Insight Meditation Society just celebrated its 50th anniversary and we were in India before then, you know. So, um, so I hear this story, you know, and people say say it in all kinds of different ways. So what actually happened was I'd gone to Baya and Kolkata maybe six or seven hours away by from one another by train.

So I'd gone to Kolkata for some reason with this friend of mine. We were heading back to Gaia to board Gaia and going to the train station in Kolkata there was uh something going on in the street. there was some kind of riot. So we couldn't get a cab or something like that. And the only means of transportation we could find to get back to the train station was a rickshaw. And in Kolkata in those days, I don't know about now, the rick shores were not men on bicycles, they were men running.

So you were in this carriage and and this guy was pulling you along running. So, he's going down these dark side streets and alleyways and um this very large, very drunken man came out of the shadows and stopped him and went to grab me to pull me off. And I thought, "Oh my god, you know, I'm going to be raped. I'm going to be murdered." Um, and the person I was with, the man I was with, managed to shove him aside and got the guy to start running again.

So we got to the train station got you know after the train ride got back to BGA and went to see this teacher mana and I was still very shaken up by it and I told him the whole story and he said to me oh Sharon with all the loving kindness in your heart you should have taken your umbrella and hit that man over the head. So that's what happened and uh you know uh the I knew you were going to tell that story you know in some fashion when you started speaking and um you know of course a lot of times we hit people over the head and and we think well it was coming from a loving place but was it really you know so there we have the ability uh for introspection and for really self-reflection really self-reflection really self-reflection see where we're coming from but we don't as you know you know that mistake is so fundamental that from loving kindness we're just going to be so uh doormat like you know that it it's just not the way it works.

Is it kind? The injunction toward kindness in our speech does not mean we shouldn't speak up for what we believe in in a political context online or IRL. We shouldn't go to a protest. we shouldn't um have firm words with our spouse or our child or um the um proverbial obnoxious uncle. Um it's it's about like what is in your heart as you're doing this? Are you are are you being firm and maybe even slightly harsh from the from a mind of of loving kindness? kindness?

kindness? Exactly. you know, and and what an amazing thing that we can look back hopefully without a lot of judgment um to see our intention. You know, if you're full of judgment and shame and that's not going to really work either. Uh but to understand, you know, we have lots of different kinds of conditioning and and things will come up. We don't have to necessarily follow them out and live by them, but you know, we can see them and abandon that which is unskillful and cultivate the good.

And I mean, what a breathtaking potential for human life. human life. human life. Okay. Well, here's here's the really juicy question, though. Is it ever okay to gossip? to gossip? to gossip? Probably we will, you know, I and I've heard people say that it's it's like a tribal ritual. It's good. you know, you kind of find your people. But I think it's so interesting to look at not only the intention but also the um the um the um the nature of the gossip. It's like I've you know I use the example sometimes of like you're about to say something about someone else that's really belittling.

It's true but it's it's belittling. And sometimes like I ask myself or or we can ask ourselves like why what would be the result of turning this person against this other person or you know what would be the good of this person knowing this about this other person and sometimes we just practice restraint but you don't have to be like holier than thou or uptight or or anything. you can be relaxed in your speech, but or you know what would it be like if you said something about another person and then they walked in the room like two and a half minutes later like what would that feel like?

And and and realizing just cuz something is ordinary or conventional or familiar doesn't mean it brings us anything, you know, that's that's worth having in terms of our our fulfillment or our our happiness in life. So, it's not bad to pay attention to to to those elements as well. But I do want to go back to something you said a moment ago and I didn't pick up on it and I want to pick up on it now, which is you didn't say this, but I'm going to say it because because I'm pretty sure you you will say it or would have said it.

Nobody's expecting perfection here. The the the point is to bring some curiosity and introspection both in the moment when you can remember um and exposef facto uh if you can um you know bear it. But the point is not to shame yourself. You you are it if you take this seriously you are likely to see some things that are unflattering but the shame is not going to help. As I once heard a great teacher whose initials are Sharon Salsberg say, uh, the mind filled with shame cannot learn.

And, um, so I often call in my scatological way shame. Um, I often call it, um, the psychic constipation like nothing can move through if you're just stuck in a story of I'm a bad person. I I of course I said that thing because my intention is to belittle to and to self arrandise. So yeah, just say a little bit more about why shame is not helpful. Yeah, that was actually a quotation uh from Eve Aman who said just that the brain filled with shame cannot learn.

And um it's really true, you know, like uh even some people going back to our initial conversation, some people in describing the eight-fold path don't like that term right, you know, right speech, right action, right livelihood. And yet that that is the classical translation. They don't like right because of the likelihood of somebody then judging themselves and blaming themselves and I'm all wrong and it's so terrible. But right in a sense just you could say it means onward leading, you know, rather than being stuck. You could say it means being in harmony with how things are.

And uh there's nothing wrong with wanting to be happy, you know, cuz it doesn't mean wanting um endless pleasure or uh domination over others. It means genuine kind of happiness. And and when we align ourselves with the things that will help bring it, it first of all our own happiness in that sense gives us resilience and an ability to help others which we don't have if we just feel broken and overwhelmed and exhausted all of the time. So we work on those things that will build that capacity up.

And it's it's good for us, it's good for others. And that's what's right, you know, is to orient ourselves toward that. And and wanting that is not greed, which people often ask me, you know, isn't that selfish to want to be happy? And I say, no, it's not greed. It's science. It's science. It's science. You know, if I have all this material goods and I never share anything, I feel I never have enough. You know, that's not a happy state. And you know, why not see that generosity produces happiness?

and then embark on a path or if I spent all my time just time just time just uh disparaging others. I really do think we live in a culture of disparagement in terms of speech where we're taught you will feel better about yourself if you just put others down. um you know we see it again and again like I don't watch much reality TV for example you know but occasionally in someone's house someone will have something on and I remember watching this cooking show and it was just terrible you know instead of somebody you know being dismissed with you know that was a really good sule but I think you could have made it more interesting with more spice or something like that it was like take your knives and go and it was like you don't deserve to be alive, you know, and we call that entertainment.

So, we've got lots of conditioning about what happens if you make a mistake, what happens if you're not number one, you know, how should you feel about yourself? And uh it's a lot of work, but it's the most liberating work of all to realize we can see these things within ourselves, not as bad or wrong, but painful. and out of compassion for ourselves embark on a path um that's more fulfilling, you know, and is happier. Abandoning the unskillful. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. How do we remember right speech when we're in the middle of a conversation with a difficult person?

Well, there's also practice. We can practice when we're not in the heat of a, you know, a conversation with a difficult person. Uh because the more we practice any skill in a kind of boring somewhat boring ordinary time, it is a little bit like going to the gym and you're building up that strength so that when things are harder, more complicated, more demanding, then it's more familiar. So I would suggest that like make it a habit. So one of the things I decided in the beginning of the pandemic, you know, I was in Barry, Mass.

the center was closed. All my travel plans were dashed. And so I decided I was going to undertake these practices just to, you know, make it a more enriched and and useful time. So one of the practices I decided on was that I wasn't going to write an email and just press send because it is a medium of communication which can so often lead to misunderstanding and confusion. and it's so tur and so I thought I was going to write an email read it again put myself in the position of the recipient and then decide if I wanted to edit it or or just send it and you know this is all these years later I still do that and most of the time I edit it you know because it's the nature of of that sort of medium so we can undertake practices of speech in one form or another and bring them to bear and just experiment with them and then when you're in the heat, you know, of a conversation with a difficult person, the simplest thing usually as a mirror for our feelings is the body, you know, what am I feeling?

What sensations are coming up? And that becomes our feedback system. So, I also often tell the story about a friend of mine who described herself as the kind of person who could basically never say no. She had a very hard time saying no in all these different situations. So she said like she'd be at work and she'd be asked to do things that really were not her job, but she she would feel like she had to say yes. And so in her meditation practice, in her meditation practice, one of the things she did was consciously bring up those kinds of situations.

And you know, she'd imagine somebody asking her something and she really studied what happened in her body because the the feeling of which is really panic came up in her stomach before the thought, oh, maybe they won't like me anymore if I say no. And so she studied that feeling and that became her feedback feedback system. So that when she was at work and she would be asked that very kind of question and she'd feel that very thing that was her signal to say I'll have to get back to you.

And then once she had some space she could actually say no. So the body will reveal a lot of things and that can be our signal like maybe don't answer right away you know or maybe say you need some time to think about something or to say well you know I think of whatever you're proposing proposing proposing uh differently do you want to hear what you know my perspective is or something you know it'll just help guide us this has been a great conversation I'm completely unsurprised by that fact Um before I let you go though, can you just talk a little bit about this event you're doing on uh the 10% uh app, this 8week series of live events uh around the eight-fold path.

Uh I'm super excited and super grateful to you for for doing it. But uh yeah, talk talk a little bit about uh why you wanted to do it and what it will be. I am doing uh several things for that app. Uh I'm doing some uh I'm doing that series. I'm uh ultimately doing a course uh with Andy Gonzalez from the Holistic Life Foundation which is especially designed for people who care for other people in some way. Um the eight-fold path is is like our living legacy.

You know, it is the actionable part of what we can do. You know, it's it's one thing to feel sense of dissatisfaction in your life or uh things could be better and it's another thing to feel creative and uh that you have agency and that there are things you can experiment with and try out. So that's really the eight-fold path and that will be uh eight different sessions. Yes, eight different sessions uh all live on Sundays through throughout the summer and um uh if you miss it, you can watch it on uh on replay and we're going to turn it into a course on the eight-fold path by Sharon Salsburg.

But she's also creating another course with our mutual friend Andy Gonzalez um around uh specifically uh a uh meditation and content aimed at people who are caregivers which honestly is most of us uh whether you're a parent or you have an aging parent or you um as you move through the day uh you you are many of us um there are moments where we are caregivers for friends who need help or maybe we're volunteers or um Yeah. Any and or we're in a caregiving profession. There are lots of uh use cases for this this second course you will also be creating for us.

Anyway, Sharon, you're the best. Thank you for doing this. doing this. doing this. Thank you so much. Thank you so much to everybody who works so hard to make this show. 10% Happier is produced by Tara Anderson and Eleanor Vasili. Our recording and engineering is handled by the great folks over at Pod People. Lauren Smith is our managing producer. Marissa Schneiderman is our senior producer. DJ Kashmir is our executive producer and Nick Thorburn of the great indie rock band Islands wrote our theme. One last thing I want to say before you go.

If you enjoy this show, please do me/ us a solid. Follow the show and leave a rating and a review on whatever platform you watch or listen to us on. It only takes a minute. It's free and it really helps new people find us and spread uh the good news that the mind is trainable. Thank you. Sincerely, I mean it. Thank you.