Why 'Just a Little Bit More' Will Never Be Enough | Morgan Housel

People always overestimate to a profound People always overestimate to a profound degree how much attention and social degree how much attention and social degree how much attention and social status you get from your material status you get from your material status you get from your material possessions. They would take someone and possessions. They would take someone and possessions. They would take someone and give them a hideous sweater and they give them a hideous sweater and they give them a hideous sweater and they would send that person into a big would send that person into a big would send that person into a big crowded bar or party and the person crowded bar or party and the person crowded bar or party and the person wearing it would be like 80% of people wearing it would be like 80% of people wearing it would be like 80% of people saw me and judge me for my sweater. They saw me and judge me for my sweater. They saw me and judge me for my sweater. They would go in and ask the people at the would go in and ask the people at the would go in and ask the people at the party and the answer was nobody. party and the answer was nobody. party and the answer was nobody. Nobody's paying attention to you as much Nobody's paying attention to you as much Nobody's paying attention to you as much as you think you are. And I realized one as you think you are. And I realized one as you think you are. And I realized one day that if somebody drove into the day that if somebody drove into the day that if somebody drove into the hotel in a Ferrari, I would stop and hotel in a Ferrari, I would stop and hotel in a Ferrari, I would stop and gawk. But I never stopped and looked at gawk. But I never stopped and looked at gawk. But I never stopped and looked at the driver. I couldn't care less about the driver. I couldn't care less about the driver. I couldn't care less about the driver. To the extent that people the driver. To the extent that people the driver. To the extent that people are looking at them, by and large, what are looking at them, by and large, what are looking at them, by and large, what they're doing is they're imagining they're doing is they're imagining they're doing is they're imagining themselves having that item. They don't themselves having that item. They don't themselves having that item. They don't really care about you. They bypass you really care about you. They bypass you really care about you. They bypass you and they go straight to themselves. >> Morgan Hel, welcome back to the show. >> Morgan Hel, welcome back to the show. >> Thanks so much for having me, Dan. >> Thanks so much for having me, Dan. >> Thanks so much for having me, Dan. Looking forward to it. I'm looking Looking forward to it. I'm looking Looking forward to it. I'm looking forward to it as well. So, the the book forward to it as well. So, the the book forward to it as well. So, the the book is called the new book is called The Art is called the new book is called The Art is called the new book is called The Art of Spending Money. Um, and so maybe as of Spending Money. Um, and so maybe as of Spending Money. Um, and so maybe as an overarching question to start with, an overarching question to start with, an overarching question to start with, um, is is this just a uh a rich person's um, is is this just a uh a rich person's um, is is this just a uh a rich person's concern? If I'm if I have, um, financial concern? If I'm if I have, um, financial concern? If I'm if I have, um, financial worries in my life, am I left out of worries in my life, am I left out of worries in my life, am I left out of this conversation? this conversation? this conversation? >> You know, Dan, it's interesting you >> You know, Dan, it's interesting you >> You know, Dan, it's interesting you bring that up because I thought about bring that up because I thought about bring that up because I thought about that when I was writing this book. Was that when I was writing this book. Was that when I was writing this book. Was this too focused on one segment of this too focused on one segment of this too focused on one segment of society? I I think the definitely the society? I I think the definitely the society? I I think the definitely the answer is no. It easily could have been answer is no. It easily could have been answer is no. It easily could have been written in that way. I think it's no for written in that way. I think it's no for written in that way. I think it's no for two reasons. Uh one is that no matter two reasons. Uh one is that no matter two reasons. Uh one is that no matter what your income level is, people deal what your income level is, people deal what your income level is, people deal with the concepts of uh envy and with the concepts of uh envy and with the concepts of uh envy and jealousy and social aspiration. And jealousy and social aspiration. And jealousy and social aspiration. And sometimes at the lower levels of income, sometimes at the lower levels of income, sometimes at the lower levels of income, those can be some of the highest levels. those can be some of the highest levels. those can be some of the highest levels. The other thing is all of those feelings The other thing is all of those feelings The other thing is all of those feelings uh in many aspects might even be uh in many aspects might even be uh in many aspects might even be magnified at the upper income levels. magnified at the upper income levels. magnified at the upper income levels. And so several of the examples that I And so several of the examples that I And so several of the examples that I use in the book are the richest people use in the book are the richest people use in the book are the richest people who've ever lived. The Vanderbilts, for who've ever lived. The Vanderbilts, for who've ever lived. The Vanderbilts, for example, who, you know, adjusted for example, who, you know, adjusted for example, who, you know, adjusted for inflation, were worth something like inflation, were worth something like inflation, were worth something like half a trillion dollars back in the late half a trillion dollars back in the late half a trillion dollars back in the late 1800s and had all these unbelievable 1800s and had all these unbelievable 1800s and had all these unbelievable spending uh psychosis problems that they spending uh psychosis problems that they spending uh psychosis problems that they had of of their their level of social had of of their their level of social had of of their their level of social aspiration and greed and envy that aspiration and greed and envy that aspiration and greed and envy that ordinary people or even lower income ordinary people or even lower income ordinary people or even lower income people can learn from. And so I think people can learn from. And so I think people can learn from. And so I think there are just as many examples in the there are just as many examples in the there are just as many examples in the book of people who did not come from book of people who did not come from book of people who did not come from great means that can uh look at people great means that can uh look at people great means that can uh look at people who do have higher higher income higher who do have higher higher income higher who do have higher higher income higher means and learn from the same kind of means and learn from the same kind of means and learn from the same kind of common denominators of behavior uh that common denominators of behavior uh that common denominators of behavior uh that afflict everybody. There's really afflict everybody. There's really afflict everybody. There's really nothing in the book that tells you how nothing in the book that tells you how nothing in the book that tells you how to spend your money. That might be a to spend your money. That might be a to spend your money. That might be a disappointment for some people, but I disappointment for some people, but I disappointment for some people, but I did that specifically for the point that did that specifically for the point that did that specifically for the point that you brought up. Everybody's different. you brought up. Everybody's different. you brought up. Everybody's different. different income levels, different ages, different income levels, different ages, different income levels, different ages, different cultures, different different cultures, different different cultures, different geographies, but the mental way that we geographies, but the mental way that we geographies, but the mental way that we think about it, the psychology that we think about it, the psychology that we think about it, the psychology that we think about envy, greed, jealousy tends think about envy, greed, jealousy tends think about envy, greed, jealousy tends to be universal no matter how much money to be universal no matter how much money to be universal no matter how much money you make. you make. you make. >> So is your basic point that um money is >> So is your basic point that um money is >> So is your basic point that um money is kind of neutral. It's a tool on some kind of neutral. It's a tool on some kind of neutral. It's a tool on some level and if you have the right level and if you have the right level and if you have the right psychology, you can use it to to boost psychology, you can use it to to boost psychology, you can use it to to boost your happiness. your happiness. your happiness. >> That's definitely the preferred way to >> That's definitely the preferred way to >> That's definitely the preferred way to do it. It is much more common though to do it. It is much more common though to do it. It is much more common though to not use it as a tool to use it as a yard not use it as a tool to use it as a yard not use it as a tool to use it as a yard stick of status to measure yourself stick of status to measure yourself stick of status to measure yourself against others by which is not always a against others by which is not always a against others by which is not always a bad thing. Life is a competition. bad thing. Life is a competition. bad thing. Life is a competition. Signaling is part of that. But you can Signaling is part of that. But you can Signaling is part of that. But you can easily and is most common to take that easily and is most common to take that easily and is most common to take that to a point that is too far where to a point that is too far where to a point that is too far where suddenly you're not using money as a suddenly you're not using money as a suddenly you're not using money as a tool to live a better life. You are tool to live a better life. You are tool to live a better life. You are using it solely as a as a status tool to using it solely as a as a status tool to using it solely as a as a status tool to measure yourself against others by. Part measure yourself against others by. Part measure yourself against others by. Part of that I would say is because money is of that I would say is because money is of that I would say is because money is so tangible and easy to count. So for so tangible and easy to count. So for so tangible and easy to count. So for example, if I said which of us, you or example, if I said which of us, you or example, if I said which of us, you or I, Dan, is is a better father. There's I, Dan, is is a better father. There's I, Dan, is is a better father. There's no way to measure that. There's no no way to measure that. There's no no way to measure that. There's no father score. That is apples to apples. father score. That is apples to apples. father score. That is apples to apples. It's a very it's a very important topic. It's a very it's a very important topic. It's a very it's a very important topic. I would love to be a good dad and I would love to be a good dad and I would love to be a good dad and measure my progress, but there's no measure my progress, but there's no measure my progress, but there's no score. But if I asked which one of you score. But if I asked which one of you score. But if I asked which one of you and I earns a higher income, has a and I earns a higher income, has a and I earns a higher income, has a higher net worth. We can measure that higher net worth. We can measure that higher net worth. We can measure that down to the penny, and it's apples to down to the penny, and it's apples to down to the penny, and it's apples to apples. So I think because of that money apples. So I think because of that money apples. So I think because of that money becomes this ultimate scorecard of how becomes this ultimate scorecard of how becomes this ultimate scorecard of how well you're doing in life in a way that well you're doing in life in a way that well you're doing in life in a way that can lead to a lot of profound uh lack of can lead to a lot of profound uh lack of can lead to a lot of profound uh lack of satisfaction and joy and jealousy and satisfaction and joy and jealousy and satisfaction and joy and jealousy and envy just because it is so easy to envy just because it is so easy to envy just because it is so easy to count. count. count. >> I just want to be clear that my son >> I just want to be clear that my son >> I just want to be clear that my son who's 11 and loves to bust my balls who's 11 and loves to bust my balls who's 11 and loves to bust my balls would sight on scene say you're a better would sight on scene say you're a better would sight on scene say you're a better father. Just just so you know. My son father. Just just so you know. My son father. Just just so you know. My son who is who is 10 about the son the same who is who is 10 about the son the same who is who is 10 about the son the same age would would would would probably age would would would would probably age would would would would probably agree that uh that that you would be a agree that uh that that you would be a agree that uh that that you would be a better father. I think every good son better father. I think every good son better father. I think every good son has that view. They're tired of their has that view. They're tired of their has that view. They're tired of their dad telling him what to do. dad telling him what to do. dad telling him what to do. >> Yeah. Or if it's or it's just straight >> Yeah. Or if it's or it's just straight >> Yeah. Or if it's or it's just straight up Edipus complex. Uh who who knows? Um up Edipus complex. Uh who who knows? Um up Edipus complex. Uh who who knows? Um but yes, I do think it is the job of a but yes, I do think it is the job of a but yes, I do think it is the job of a son to um to bring their father down a son to um to bring their father down a son to um to bring their father down a peg. Just on this tip of uh on the peg. Just on this tip of uh on the peg. Just on this tip of uh on the subject of of rich people and their subject of of rich people and their subject of of rich people and their psychosis, I this probably came up in psychosis, I this probably came up in psychosis, I this probably came up in the last time we chatted and I know I've the last time we chatted and I know I've the last time we chatted and I know I've I've I've cited this in in many podcast I've I've cited this in in many podcast I've I've cited this in in many podcast episodes that I think it was a episodes that I think it was a episodes that I think it was a Rockefeller who was asked, you know, how Rockefeller who was asked, you know, how Rockefeller who was asked, you know, how much is enough? And and he said just a much is enough? And and he said just a much is enough? And and he said just a little bit more. little bit more. little bit more. >> Right. That's it. Uh I think that's, you >> Right. That's it. Uh I think that's, you >> Right. That's it. Uh I think that's, you know, it's funny when we hear know, it's funny when we hear know, it's funny when we hear Rockefeller say that cuz he was the Rockefeller say that cuz he was the Rockefeller say that cuz he was the richest man in the world, but it's so richest man in the world, but it's so richest man in the world, but it's so true. I've noticed this about myself. I true. I've noticed this about myself. I true. I've noticed this about myself. I should state from the outset, I've never should state from the outset, I've never should state from the outset, I've never proclaimed to be a perfect expert at proclaimed to be a perfect expert at proclaimed to be a perfect expert at this topic, and I'm trying to impart this topic, and I'm trying to impart this topic, and I'm trying to impart that wisdom onto the reader. I wrote that wisdom onto the reader. I wrote that wisdom onto the reader. I wrote this book and all of my books as a this book and all of my books as a this book and all of my books as a self-exloration into my own uh problems. self-exloration into my own uh problems. self-exloration into my own uh problems. And and Dan, to your credit, Dan, I And and Dan, to your credit, Dan, I And and Dan, to your credit, Dan, I think I think you did the same. And it think I think you did the same. And it think I think you did the same. And it it ends with um you know, uh wisdom for it ends with um you know, uh wisdom for it ends with um you know, uh wisdom for the reader that hopefully can help him the reader that hopefully can help him the reader that hopefully can help him with, but it's not saying, "I've with, but it's not saying, "I've with, but it's not saying, "I've mastered this. Let me tell you how to do mastered this. Let me tell you how to do mastered this. Let me tell you how to do it." It's I struggled with this, let me it." It's I struggled with this, let me it." It's I struggled with this, let me tell you my journey. And so I, you know, tell you my journey. And so I, you know, tell you my journey. And so I, you know, I I I I bring that up because I've I I I I bring that up because I've I I I I bring that up because I've noticed this in myself. I write about noticed this in myself. I write about noticed this in myself. I write about the concept of enough and and and the concept of enough and and and the concept of enough and and and contentment and whatnot. I would never contentment and whatnot. I would never contentment and whatnot. I would never say that I'm a master about that. And if say that I'm a master about that. And if say that I'm a master about that. And if you asked me today, if I was honest, if you asked me today, if I was honest, if you asked me today, if I was honest, if you gave me truth serum right now and you gave me truth serum right now and you gave me truth serum right now and you said, "How much is enough, Morgan?" you said, "How much is enough, Morgan?" you said, "How much is enough, Morgan?" I would probably say just a little bit I would probably say just a little bit I would probably say just a little bit more. So I think that can afflict more. So I think that can afflict more. So I think that can afflict virtually anybody at any income level. I virtually anybody at any income level. I virtually anybody at any income level. I remember when I was a teenager thinking remember when I was a teenager thinking remember when I was a teenager thinking to myself, uh, if if if I had $1,000 in to myself, uh, if if if I had $1,000 in to myself, uh, if if if I had $1,000 in the bank, all my problems would go away. the bank, all my problems would go away. the bank, all my problems would go away. And I genuinely believe that kind of And I genuinely believe that kind of And I genuinely believe that kind of thing. And so I think at any age income, thing. And so I think at any age income, thing. And so I think at any age income, it's it's very easy to tell yourself the it's it's very easy to tell yourself the it's it's very easy to tell yourself the story, the narrative that if my net story, the narrative that if my net story, the narrative that if my net worth, statistically for all the studies worth, statistically for all the studies worth, statistically for all the studies show it's roughly 2x of whatever you show it's roughly 2x of whatever you show it's roughly 2x of whatever you have right now, would in your brain uh, have right now, would in your brain uh, have right now, would in your brain uh, check a box that says now I have enough. check a box that says now I have enough. check a box that says now I have enough. I have this executive coach I've been I have this executive coach I've been I have this executive coach I've been working with for almost a decade. Great working with for almost a decade. Great working with for almost a decade. Great guy. His name is Jerry Colona. And he guy. His name is Jerry Colona. And he guy. His name is Jerry Colona. And he he's like you and like me in that he he's like you and like me in that he he's like you and like me in that he doesn't pretend to be perfected. He he doesn't pretend to be perfected. He he doesn't pretend to be perfected. He he talks a lot about his own foibless and talks a lot about his own foibless and talks a lot about his own foibless and flaws and and uh he has this story from flaws and and uh he has this story from flaws and and uh he has this story from many years ago when he his um uh many years ago when he his um uh many years ago when he his um uh psychotherapist with whom he was very psychotherapist with whom he was very psychotherapist with whom he was very close and she's now passed on. But there close and she's now passed on. But there close and she's now passed on. But there was a conversation they were having when was a conversation they were having when was a conversation they were having when she was saying, "Well, Jerry, how much she was saying, "Well, Jerry, how much she was saying, "Well, Jerry, how much is enough? like how much would you need is enough? like how much would you need is enough? like how much would you need in order to feel safe to feel sad? And in order to feel safe to feel sad? And in order to feel safe to feel sad? And he said Bill Gates money. he said Bill Gates money. he said Bill Gates money. >> Well, here's that's such a good answer >> Well, here's that's such a good answer >> Well, here's that's such a good answer because I was just going to bring this because I was just going to bring this because I was just going to bring this up. Uh Steve Balmer, who was the CEO of up. Uh Steve Balmer, who was the CEO of up. Uh Steve Balmer, who was the CEO of Microsoft for two decades or so and is Microsoft for two decades or so and is Microsoft for two decades or so and is one of the richest men in the world. I one of the richest men in the world. I one of the richest men in the world. I think he's worth 150 some odd billion think he's worth 150 some odd billion think he's worth 150 some odd billion dollars right now. He did a wonderful dollars right now. He did a wonderful dollars right now. He did a wonderful podcast with a podcast acquired uh about podcast with a podcast acquired uh about podcast with a podcast acquired uh about a year ago, I think it was maybe six a year ago, I think it was maybe six a year ago, I think it was maybe six months ago. And he he didn't say this months ago. And he he didn't say this months ago. And he he didn't say this directly. I don't want to put words in directly. I don't want to put words in directly. I don't want to put words in his mouth, but he got close to kind of his mouth, but he got close to kind of his mouth, but he got close to kind of tangentially pointing to that he worries tangentially pointing to that he worries tangentially pointing to that he worries about losing his money and and running about losing his money and and running about losing his money and and running out of money. That that kind of thing. out of money. That that kind of thing. out of money. That that kind of thing. Again, he didn't say that, but if you Again, he didn't say that, but if you Again, he didn't say that, but if you listen to what he said, you can kind of listen to what he said, you can kind of listen to what he said, you can kind of get the gist that he thinks about it. get the gist that he thinks about it. get the gist that he thinks about it. And so, this is someone who's worth $150 And so, this is someone who's worth $150 And so, this is someone who's worth $150 billion. billion. billion. >> And I I I I think that's true for for a >> And I I I I think that's true for for a >> And I I I I think that's true for for a lot of rich people that when you are lot of rich people that when you are lot of rich people that when you are poor, you worry about never making poor, you worry about never making poor, you worry about never making enough money. And when you have money, enough money. And when you have money, enough money. And when you have money, you worry about losing it. Uh I I think you worry about losing it. Uh I I think you worry about losing it. Uh I I think it's it's common. I think a lot of times it's it's common. I think a lot of times it's it's common. I think a lot of times in life for many topics in life, people in life for many topics in life, people in life for many topics in life, people have a minimum level of stress that they have a minimum level of stress that they have a minimum level of stress that they need in their life. They can never just need in their life. They can never just need in their life. They can never just say I'm I'm great. I have I have say I'm I'm great. I have I have say I'm I'm great. I have I have everything. I don't need to worry everything. I don't need to worry everything. I don't need to worry anymore. They always need to worry about anymore. They always need to worry about anymore. They always need to worry about something for most topics. And if they something for most topics. And if they something for most topics. And if they don't have a legitimate level, if they don't have a legitimate level, if they don't have a legitimate level, if they don't have legitimate problems to worry don't have legitimate problems to worry don't have legitimate problems to worry about, they will make up fake problems about, they will make up fake problems about, they will make up fake problems to worry about. And so when you are poor to worry about. And so when you are poor to worry about. And so when you are poor and you might worry about not being able and you might worry about not being able and you might worry about not being able to pay rent, that's a legitimate worry to pay rent, that's a legitimate worry to pay rent, that's a legitimate worry that you worry about. When you're rich that you worry about. When you're rich that you worry about. When you're rich and you have all the money that you ever and you have all the money that you ever and you have all the money that you ever need, you might worry about losing it. need, you might worry about losing it. need, you might worry about losing it. And that might be, you know, a much less And that might be, you know, a much less And that might be, you know, a much less rational worry, but you need to worry rational worry, but you need to worry rational worry, but you need to worry about something just to kind of keep about something just to kind of keep about something just to kind of keep your brain occupied. I think there's your brain occupied. I think there's your brain occupied. I think there's some truth to that. some truth to that. some truth to that. >> I agree with that. I think, and I don't >> I agree with that. I think, and I don't >> I agree with that. I think, and I don't have any evidence other than my own end have any evidence other than my own end have any evidence other than my own end of one experience, but um it feels to me of one experience, but um it feels to me of one experience, but um it feels to me like I have a certain amount of anxiety like I have a certain amount of anxiety like I have a certain amount of anxiety in my system and it will find some [ __ ] in my system and it will find some [ __ ] in my system and it will find some [ __ ] to latch on to. And so, um, you might be to latch on to. And so, um, you might be to latch on to. And so, um, you might be able to reassure me about what I'm able to reassure me about what I'm able to reassure me about what I'm whatever it is I'm obsessing over right whatever it is I'm obsessing over right whatever it is I'm obsessing over right now, but then I I will just the the the now, but then I I will just the the the now, but then I I will just the the the storehouse of anxiety. We'll just move storehouse of anxiety. We'll just move storehouse of anxiety. We'll just move on to the the the next item in the on to the the the next item in the on to the the the next item in the passing show. You brought up a bunch of passing show. You brought up a bunch of passing show. You brought up a bunch of things that I want to follow up on. Uh, things that I want to follow up on. Uh, things that I want to follow up on. Uh, contentment for sure. I want to get to contentment for sure. I want to get to contentment for sure. I want to get to since we're picking on rich people for a since we're picking on rich people for a since we're picking on rich people for a second, um, which, you know, I'm always second, um, which, you know, I'm always second, um, which, you know, I'm always happy to do. I want to get to something happy to do. I want to get to something happy to do. I want to get to something you say very early in the book which is you say very early in the book which is you say very early in the book which is relevant to this thing that you and I relevant to this thing that you and I relevant to this thing that you and I have been doing which is being have been doing which is being have been doing which is being judgmental of the super rich and how judgmental of the super rich and how judgmental of the super rich and how they think about money. No matter what they think about money. No matter what they think about money. No matter what level of income you're at, we all have level of income you're at, we all have level of income you're at, we all have our our stuff around money and we all our our stuff around money and we all our our stuff around money and we all have uh this tendency to judge other have uh this tendency to judge other have uh this tendency to judge other people in their stuff. And so there's people in their stuff. And so there's people in their stuff. And so there's this expression you use very early in this expression you use very early in this expression you use very early in the book that I think it's worth the book that I think it's worth the book that I think it's worth unpacking here, which is all behavior unpacking here, which is all behavior unpacking here, which is all behavior makes sense with enough information. I I makes sense with enough information. I I makes sense with enough information. I I I got that quote from my brother-in-law I got that quote from my brother-in-law I got that quote from my brother-in-law who is a social worker and he says that who is a social worker and he says that who is a social worker and he says that they use that phrase in the social work they use that phrase in the social work they use that phrase in the social work community very often when you're working community very often when you're working community very often when you're working with very troubled kids who are maybe with very troubled kids who are maybe with very troubled kids who are maybe homeless or abused at home, just homeless or abused at home, just homeless or abused at home, just horrific backgrounds. A lot of those horrific backgrounds. A lot of those horrific backgrounds. A lot of those kids perform very poorly at school. kids perform very poorly at school. kids perform very poorly at school. They're truent. They get in fights on They're truent. They get in fights on They're truent. They get in fights on the playground and it's it's obvious and the playground and it's it's obvious and the playground and it's it's obvious and common that a teacher or a principal common that a teacher or a principal common that a teacher or a principal would say, "Why are you behaving like would say, "Why are you behaving like would say, "Why are you behaving like this? I I can't understand what's going this? I I can't understand what's going this? I I can't understand what's going through your head that would cause you through your head that would cause you through your head that would cause you to do that." And in in the social work to do that." And in in the social work to do that." And in in the social work circles, they say, "All behavior makes circles, they say, "All behavior makes circles, they say, "All behavior makes sense with enough information." If you sense with enough information." If you sense with enough information." If you knew the abuse and the neglect that that knew the abuse and the neglect that that knew the abuse and the neglect that that child was dealing with at home, you child was dealing with at home, you child was dealing with at home, you don't condone the behavior at school, don't condone the behavior at school, don't condone the behavior at school, but you understand it. It makes sense but you understand it. It makes sense but you understand it. It makes sense with enough information. I think you can with enough information. I think you can with enough information. I think you can apply that philosophy to so many things apply that philosophy to so many things apply that philosophy to so many things in life, including um you know h how we in life, including um you know h how we in life, including um you know h how we think about money, saving money, think about money, saving money, think about money, saving money, spending money, showing off how much spending money, showing off how much spending money, showing off how much money we have, judging other judging the money we have, judging other judging the money we have, judging other judging the amount of money that other people have. amount of money that other people have. amount of money that other people have. There's there's usually a deep story There's there's usually a deep story There's there's usually a deep story behind that. And so I I I I try not to behind that. And so I I I I try not to behind that. And so I I I I try not to judge, but whenever I see a guy in a judge, but whenever I see a guy in a judge, but whenever I see a guy in a yellow Lamborghini, let's say, there's a yellow Lamborghini, let's say, there's a yellow Lamborghini, let's say, there's a story behind that. There's a story of story behind that. There's a story of story behind that. There's a story of wanting to show other people, the wanting to show other people, the wanting to show other people, the majority of the time, at least, wanting majority of the time, at least, wanting majority of the time, at least, wanting to show other people that you've made to show other people that you've made to show other people that you've made it. And I I I use a story in in the book it. And I I I use a story in in the book it. And I I I use a story in in the book of a very close family member of mine of a very close family member of mine of a very close family member of mine that grew up in abject poverty, homeless that grew up in abject poverty, homeless that grew up in abject poverty, homeless and in the foster system for much of his and in the foster system for much of his and in the foster system for much of his childhood and then became a very childhood and then became a very childhood and then became a very successful businessman. And when his successful businessman. And when his successful businessman. And when his daughter was going to college, he told daughter was going to college, he told daughter was going to college, he told her, "Please pick the most expensive her, "Please pick the most expensive her, "Please pick the most expensive school that you get into." And the school that you get into." And the school that you get into." And the reason he said it is it was a social reason he said it is it was a social reason he said it is it was a social trophy to him and a symbol of what he trophy to him and a symbol of what he trophy to him and a symbol of what he had overcome had overcome had overcome >> to send his daughter to the most >> to send his daughter to the most >> to send his daughter to the most expensive school. And in his mind, it expensive school. And in his mind, it expensive school. And in his mind, it was the higher the tuition, the better. was the higher the tuition, the better. was the higher the tuition, the better. And so you you have I use it as an And so you you have I use it as an And so you you have I use it as an example of there's a lot of behavior example of there's a lot of behavior example of there's a lot of behavior with money that doesn't make a lot of with money that doesn't make a lot of with money that doesn't make a lot of rational sense. It either looks highly rational sense. It either looks highly rational sense. It either looks highly egotistical or just doesn't track with egotistical or just doesn't track with egotistical or just doesn't track with rational thinking. But when you scratch rational thinking. But when you scratch rational thinking. But when you scratch beneath the the surface of the stories beneath the the surface of the stories beneath the the surface of the stories and the psychological scars that every and the psychological scars that every and the psychological scars that every one of us has, I have, you have, uh it one of us has, I have, you have, uh it one of us has, I have, you have, uh it it it makes sense. And again, you don't it it makes sense. And again, you don't it it makes sense. And again, you don't always say that behavior is right, but always say that behavior is right, but always say that behavior is right, but you can be like, I I kind of understand you can be like, I I kind of understand you can be like, I I kind of understand why you would do that. I I I found this why you would do that. I I I found this why you would do that. I I I found this great headline in the Washington Post great headline in the Washington Post great headline in the Washington Post from 1929, which was the peak of the from 1929, which was the peak of the from 1929, which was the peak of the roaring 20s just before the Great roaring 20s just before the Great roaring 20s just before the Great Depression, the biggest one of the Depression, the biggest one of the Depression, the biggest one of the biggest bubbles back then. And the biggest bubbles back then. And the biggest bubbles back then. And the headline I thought was so brilliant. It headline I thought was so brilliant. It headline I thought was so brilliant. It was um the more you were snubbed while was um the more you were snubbed while was um the more you were snubbed while poor, the more you will enjoy displaying poor, the more you will enjoy displaying poor, the more you will enjoy displaying being rich. So if you grew up poor, as a being rich. So if you grew up poor, as a being rich. So if you grew up poor, as a lot of people in the 1910s and teens lot of people in the 1910s and teens lot of people in the 1910s and teens did, and you were snubbed for that, when did, and you were snubbed for that, when did, and you were snubbed for that, when you finally had some money in the 1920s, you finally had some money in the 1920s, you finally had some money in the 1920s, that was the person that was going to that was the person that was going to that was the person that was going to get the flashy car and the jewelry and get the flashy car and the jewelry and get the flashy car and the jewelry and the mink coat and whatever it was back the mink coat and whatever it was back the mink coat and whatever it was back then. And so I I I think there's there's then. And so I I I think there's there's then. And so I I I think there's there's quite a bit of that. And you can always quite a bit of that. And you can always quite a bit of that. And you can always tell a lot about people's backgrounds tell a lot about people's backgrounds tell a lot about people's backgrounds and their psychology, even if they don't and their psychology, even if they don't and their psychology, even if they don't know what these things would be, by know what these things would be, by know what these things would be, by watching how they spend money. either watching how they spend money. either watching how they spend money. either people are very content and and people are very content and and people are very content and and confident in themselves or they're confident in themselves or they're confident in themselves or they're trying to either prove to themselves or trying to either prove to themselves or trying to either prove to themselves or to prove to other people that they've to prove to other people that they've to prove to other people that they've made it in the world. made it in the world. made it in the world. >> It's such a thorny subject and you >> It's such a thorny subject and you >> It's such a thorny subject and you brought up so many great points there brought up so many great points there brought up so many great points there like the power of humiliation in human like the power of humiliation in human like the power of humiliation in human human affairs, you know, when the with human affairs, you know, when the with human affairs, you know, when the with the snubbing, the the tendency that we the snubbing, the the tendency that we the snubbing, the the tendency that we all have to judge. Yeah, we see somebody all have to judge. Yeah, we see somebody all have to judge. Yeah, we see somebody in Lamborghini and we go right to, oh in Lamborghini and we go right to, oh in Lamborghini and we go right to, oh yeah, he must have a micro penis. Um, yeah, he must have a micro penis. Um, yeah, he must have a micro penis. Um, but it it could be any number of of but it it could be any number of of but it it could be any number of of things. It could be he he was an orphan things. It could be he he was an orphan things. It could be he he was an orphan um and actually this is a great way to um and actually this is a great way to um and actually this is a great way to you know he grew up in foster care and you know he grew up in foster care and you know he grew up in foster care and this is this is what makes him feel safe this is this is what makes him feel safe this is this is what makes him feel safe and so it scans to us as obnoxious but and so it scans to us as obnoxious but and so it scans to us as obnoxious but once you have enough information once you have enough information once you have enough information um what what's the other there's a um what what's the other there's a um what what's the other there's a French correlary I can't remember the French correlary I can't remember the French correlary I can't remember the words in French but it's something like words in French but it's something like words in French but it's something like and this is a correlate correlary to all and this is a correlate correlary to all and this is a correlate correlary to all behavior makes sense with enough behavior makes sense with enough behavior makes sense with enough information it's to know all is to information it's to know all is to information it's to know all is to forgive all um Yes. forgive all um Yes. forgive all um Yes. >> And it's a very generous way to go >> And it's a very generous way to go >> And it's a very generous way to go through the world. through the world. through the world. >> And there's a lot of times when you see >> And there's a lot of times when you see >> And there's a lot of times when you see someone, let's just use that yellow someone, let's just use that yellow someone, let's just use that yellow Lamborghini, the extreme example. A lot Lamborghini, the extreme example. A lot Lamborghini, the extreme example. A lot of times, yes, they're trying to show of times, yes, they're trying to show of times, yes, they're trying to show off to other people. off to other people. off to other people. >> It's not uncommon though that who >> It's not uncommon though that who >> It's not uncommon though that who they're who they're actually signaling they're who they're actually signaling they're who they're actually signaling for and performing for is them for and performing for is them for and performing for is them themselves because they came from such a themselves because they came from such a themselves because they came from such a lower spot and they know the the weight lower spot and they know the the weight lower spot and they know the the weight that was on their shoulders at a that was on their shoulders at a that was on their shoulders at a different point in their life. And the different point in their life. And the different point in their life. And the car is a symbol to themselves that car is a symbol to themselves that car is a symbol to themselves that they've made it. It's a social trophy they've made it. It's a social trophy they've made it. It's a social trophy for themselves. And I I I think we all for themselves. And I I I think we all for themselves. And I I I think we all have some version of that if we overcame have some version of that if we overcame have some version of that if we overcame some big adversity earlier in their some big adversity earlier in their some big adversity earlier in their life. I'll give you mine personally. life. I'll give you mine personally. life. I'll give you mine personally. I've written about this a little bit. I I've written about this a little bit. I I've written about this a little bit. I had a very extreme stutter growing up had a very extreme stutter growing up had a very extreme stutter growing up and it was really hard for me to speak and it was really hard for me to speak and it was really hard for me to speak fluently until I was 30 fluently until I was 30 fluently until I was 30 >> and now I speak for a living. I speak at >> and now I speak for a living. I speak at >> and now I speak for a living. I speak at conferences all over the world and conferences all over the world and conferences all over the world and whatnot. And in in a lot of ways I think whatnot. And in in a lot of ways I think whatnot. And in in a lot of ways I think it's my social trophy. it's my social trophy. it's my social trophy. >> It's it's do I actually enjoy traveling >> It's it's do I actually enjoy traveling >> It's it's do I actually enjoy traveling around and flying around and speaking on around and flying around and speaking on around and flying around and speaking on stage? I think I enjoy some of it, but stage? I think I enjoy some of it, but stage? I think I enjoy some of it, but whenever I get off stage, there's this whenever I get off stage, there's this whenever I get off stage, there's this feeling that I think I have that other feeling that I think I have that other feeling that I think I have that other speakers wouldn't because for the first speakers wouldn't because for the first speakers wouldn't because for the first 30 years of my life, it was speaking was 30 years of my life, it was speaking was 30 years of my life, it was speaking was the one of the biggest challenges that I the one of the biggest challenges that I the one of the biggest challenges that I could ever have. And so, it has a very could ever have. And so, it has a very could ever have. And so, it has a very different feel for me now. And I think a different feel for me now. And I think a different feel for me now. And I think a lot of people have that same version lot of people have that same version lot of people have that same version financially. If they felt like they were financially. If they felt like they were financially. If they felt like they were snubbed and now they're earning a big in snubbed and now they're earning a big in snubbed and now they're earning a big in a big income, those are the people for a big income, those are the people for a big income, those are the people for whom like money can't burn a hole in whom like money can't burn a hole in whom like money can't burn a hole in their pocket fast enough. They have to their pocket fast enough. They have to their pocket fast enough. They have to go out and prove to themselves that they go out and prove to themselves that they go out and prove to themselves that they made it. your story about the stutter made it. your story about the stutter made it. your story about the stutter just makes me so happy for you at the just makes me so happy for you at the just makes me so happy for you at the end of every sentence. end of every sentence. end of every sentence. >> It's it's interesting. There's actually >> It's it's interesting. There's actually >> It's it's interesting. There's actually quite um so most children stutter. The quite um so most children stutter. The quite um so most children stutter. The majority of you know three or four year majority of you know three or four year majority of you know three or four year olds will stutter and 95% of them or so olds will stutter and 95% of them or so olds will stutter and 95% of them or so will outgrow it by age six or seven. So will outgrow it by age six or seven. So will outgrow it by age six or seven. So it's a very common if you listen to a it's a very common if you listen to a it's a very common if you listen to a toddler speaking they could they're just toddler speaking they could they're just toddler speaking they could they're just constantly stumbling over their words. constantly stumbling over their words. constantly stumbling over their words. Um, and then it it it tends to fall off Um, and then it it it tends to fall off Um, and then it it it tends to fall off by age. And by age 20 or so, by by by age. And by age 20 or so, by by by age. And by age 20 or so, by by puberty, I I should say, uh, it's it's a puberty, I I should say, uh, it's it's a puberty, I I should say, uh, it's it's a fraction of 1% of people still have a fraction of 1% of people still have a fraction of 1% of people still have a stutter. And mine was was was very stutter. And mine was was was very stutter. And mine was was was very severe. I mean, it was, if you go back severe. I mean, it was, if you go back severe. I mean, it was, if you go back to when I was 15 or 16, I I really to when I was 15 or 16, I I really to when I was 15 or 16, I I really couldn't finish a sentence. And it stuck couldn't finish a sentence. And it stuck couldn't finish a sentence. And it stuck with me. It was a slow progression. I with me. It was a slow progression. I with me. It was a slow progression. I think I started figuring out how to think I started figuring out how to think I started figuring out how to overcome it when I was 15 or 16, but I overcome it when I was 15 or 16, but I overcome it when I was 15 or 16, but I hadn't mastered how to overcome it until hadn't mastered how to overcome it until hadn't mastered how to overcome it until I was probably 30. And so, it's it's I was probably 30. And so, it's it's I was probably 30. And so, it's it's true. even doing something like this true. even doing something like this true. even doing something like this podcast I think it's uh it's a good podcast I think it's uh it's a good podcast I think it's uh it's a good feeling. I had a friend who grew up in feeling. I had a friend who grew up in feeling. I had a friend who grew up in Africa deeply impoverished and then Africa deeply impoverished and then Africa deeply impoverished and then moved to America and he said to this day moved to America and he said to this day moved to America and he said to this day whenever a hot meal is placed in front whenever a hot meal is placed in front whenever a hot meal is placed in front of him he just has this radiant sense of of him he just has this radiant sense of of him he just has this radiant sense of joy cuz he remembers what it was like to joy cuz he remembers what it was like to joy cuz he remembers what it was like to be hungry in a way that if you and I got be hungry in a way that if you and I got be hungry in a way that if you and I got a hot plate of food it probably just a hot plate of food it probably just a hot plate of food it probably just that's just what we have. So when you that's just what we have. So when you that's just what we have. So when you when you start from like a low starting when you start from like a low starting when you start from like a low starting base, any kind of accomplishment has a base, any kind of accomplishment has a base, any kind of accomplishment has a completely different sense of of of of completely different sense of of of of completely different sense of of of of what you've done. what you've done. what you've done. >> Well, so this is something you write >> Well, so this is something you write >> Well, so this is something you write about in the book. Uh I believe I about in the book. Uh I believe I about in the book. Uh I believe I believe the phrase is the best measure believe the phrase is the best measure believe the phrase is the best measure of wealth is what you have minus what of wealth is what you have minus what of wealth is what you have minus what you want. And so this gets us very you want. And so this gets us very you want. And so this gets us very directly to contentment. directly to contentment. directly to contentment. >> Yeah. I think what's what's important is >> Yeah. I think what's what's important is >> Yeah. I think what's what's important is that a lot of what we chase in life that a lot of what we chase in life that a lot of what we chase in life financially but in many aspects of life financially but in many aspects of life financially but in many aspects of life is happiness. And it seems like of is happiness. And it seems like of is happiness. And it seems like of course that that of course that should course that that of course that should course that that of course that should be the goal. You know, life, liberty, be the goal. You know, life, liberty, be the goal. You know, life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness is is is and the pursuit of happiness is is is and the pursuit of happiness is is is what we're all after. I I think it's what we're all after. I I think it's what we're all after. I I think it's it's the wrong phrasing. And this is not it's the wrong phrasing. And this is not it's the wrong phrasing. And this is not just semantics is that happiness is just semantics is that happiness is just semantics is that happiness is always a fleeting emotion. I always use always a fleeting emotion. I always use always a fleeting emotion. I always use the example of happiness is like humor. the example of happiness is like humor. the example of happiness is like humor. If I tell you the funniest joke you've If I tell you the funniest joke you've If I tell you the funniest joke you've ever heard, you might laugh for 30 ever heard, you might laugh for 30 ever heard, you might laugh for 30 seconds. You are not going to laugh for seconds. You are not going to laugh for seconds. You are not going to laugh for 10 years straight. This is not how it 10 years straight. This is not how it 10 years straight. This is not how it works. It's a fleeting emotion. It's a works. It's a fleeting emotion. It's a works. It's a fleeting emotion. It's a great emotion. I love I went to a comedy great emotion. I love I went to a comedy great emotion. I love I went to a comedy show last week with my wife. Laughed for show last week with my wife. Laughed for show last week with my wife. Laughed for the whole time, but it's fleeting. You the whole time, but it's fleeting. You the whole time, but it's fleeting. You don't laugh the whole night. And and so don't laugh the whole night. And and so don't laugh the whole night. And and so I I I think that's what happiness that I I I think that's what happiness that I I I think that's what happiness that that's that's really what it is. And so that's that's really what it is. And so that's that's really what it is. And so when we daydream about having more when we daydream about having more when we daydream about having more money, having a bigger house, having money, having a bigger house, having money, having a bigger house, having financial freedom, retiring, whatever it financial freedom, retiring, whatever it financial freedom, retiring, whatever it might be, by and large, what we're doing might be, by and large, what we're doing might be, by and large, what we're doing is imagining ourselves with that house is imagining ourselves with that house is imagining ourselves with that house or in retirement, whatever your goal is, or in retirement, whatever your goal is, or in retirement, whatever your goal is, and being content with it. And that's and being content with it. And that's and being content with it. And that's what feels good. That's why the daydream what feels good. That's why the daydream what feels good. That's why the daydream is awesome is because you imagine is awesome is because you imagine is awesome is because you imagine yourself in that house thinking to yourself in that house thinking to yourself in that house thinking to yourself, I don't need a bigger one. yourself, I don't need a bigger one. yourself, I don't need a bigger one. This one's perfect. And so what we're This one's perfect. And so what we're This one's perfect. And so what we're actually after, I think, is contentment. actually after, I think, is contentment. actually after, I think, is contentment. And happiness is always fleeting, but And happiness is always fleeting, but And happiness is always fleeting, but contentment can be um a pretty durable contentment can be um a pretty durable contentment can be um a pretty durable emotion. And it's very difficult. I emotion. And it's very difficult. I emotion. And it's very difficult. I don't want to pretend like this is an don't want to pretend like this is an don't want to pretend like this is an easy thing. Oh, just be content with easy thing. Oh, just be content with easy thing. Oh, just be content with what you have and then it's done. A lot what you have and then it's done. A lot what you have and then it's done. A lot of the reason that we've made so much of the reason that we've made so much of the reason that we've made so much progress in the world over the last progress in the world over the last progress in the world over the last several hundred years with technology several hundred years with technology several hundred years with technology and medicine and everything is because and medicine and everything is because and medicine and everything is because people are not content. Because most people are not content. Because most people are not content. Because most people wake up every morning saying I people wake up every morning saying I people wake up every morning saying I need to do better. This isn't enough. I need to do better. This isn't enough. I need to do better. This isn't enough. I need more money. We need better need more money. We need better need more money. We need better technology. We need more productivity. technology. We need more productivity. technology. We need more productivity. That's why this world is so great. So I That's why this world is so great. So I That's why this world is so great. So I don't want to say everyone should just don't want to say everyone should just don't want to say everyone should just be content with what they have. That's be content with what they have. That's be content with what they have. That's not it. But you have to understand the not it. But you have to understand the not it. But you have to understand the formula for doing well financially. What formula for doing well financially. What formula for doing well financially. What you have minus what you want. I want you have minus what you want. I want you have minus what you want. I want more money. Of course everybody does. more money. Of course everybody does. more money. Of course everybody does. But I also know that if I don't go out But I also know that if I don't go out But I also know that if I don't go out of my way to manage my expectations with of my way to manage my expectations with of my way to manage my expectations with as much emphasis as that I do growing my as much emphasis as that I do growing my as much emphasis as that I do growing my net worth, growing my income, it's it's net worth, growing my income, it's it's net worth, growing my income, it's it's never going to feel like it's enough. never going to feel like it's enough. never going to feel like it's enough. And for a lot of people financially, if And for a lot of people financially, if And for a lot of people financially, if it never feels like it's enough, they it never feels like it's enough, they it never feels like it's enough, they end up running themselves off a cliff. end up running themselves off a cliff. end up running themselves off a cliff. Too much too much risk with their Too much too much risk with their Too much too much risk with their investments, too much ambition at work, investments, too much ambition at work, investments, too much ambition at work, and then they don't even know who their and then they don't even know who their and then they don't even know who their children are kind of thing. And so it's children are kind of thing. And so it's children are kind of thing. And so it's uh it's it's it's the most important uh it's it's it's the most important uh it's it's it's the most important topic in finance. I think it's very topic in finance. I think it's very topic in finance. I think it's very difficult and it takes a lot of work. difficult and it takes a lot of work. difficult and it takes a lot of work. I've used this analogy before that I I've used this analogy before that I I've used this analogy before that I think it's actually pretty similar to think it's actually pretty similar to think it's actually pretty similar to meditation where if you meditate very meditation where if you meditate very meditation where if you meditate very often, you can have a better life, but often, you can have a better life, but often, you can have a better life, but then you don't get to stop. You have to then you don't get to stop. You have to then you don't get to stop. You have to yet you have to keep doing it over and yet you have to keep doing it over and yet you have to keep doing it over and over and over and over again. And so I over and over and over again. And so I over and over and over again. And so I have to remind myself about contentment have to remind myself about contentment have to remind myself about contentment and enough daily, I think. And I'm still and enough daily, I think. And I'm still and enough daily, I think. And I'm still pulled towards the siren song of more, pulled towards the siren song of more, pulled towards the siren song of more, >> but with but still with the reminder. I >> but with but still with the reminder. I >> but with but still with the reminder. I think my my wife is much better than I think my my wife is much better than I think my my wife is much better than I am at this of saying like I I I know am at this of saying like I I I know am at this of saying like I I I know you're daydreaming about that thing, you're daydreaming about that thing, you're daydreaming about that thing, Morgan, but you know it's not going to Morgan, but you know it's not going to Morgan, but you know it's not going to make you happy or you know it and I can make you happy or you know it and I can make you happy or you know it and I can give you 400 examples of the time you give you 400 examples of the time you give you 400 examples of the time you said it was going to make you happy and said it was going to make you happy and said it was going to make you happy and it didn't. it didn't. it didn't. >> But it's a it's a it's a daily reminder >> But it's a it's a it's a daily reminder >> But it's a it's a it's a daily reminder to to progress to that area. to to progress to that area. to to progress to that area. >> I have a question. I'm just going to >> I have a question. I'm just going to >> I have a question. I'm just going to preface it with a tiny little a very preface it with a tiny little a very preface it with a tiny little a very brief little anecdote. Um I'm a little brief little anecdote. Um I'm a little brief little anecdote. Um I'm a little bit obsessed with the Beatles. I'm bit obsessed with the Beatles. I'm bit obsessed with the Beatles. I'm always excited when I find any new uh always excited when I find any new uh always excited when I find any new uh documentary on the Beatles. Um uh side documentary on the Beatles. Um uh side documentary on the Beatles. Um uh side note within a side note um on Disney note within a side note um on Disney note within a side note um on Disney Plus recently and I'm they're not a Plus recently and I'm they're not a Plus recently and I'm they're not a sponsor. U they dropped this like sponsor. U they dropped this like sponsor. U they dropped this like nine-part documentary series recently nine-part documentary series recently nine-part documentary series recently called the Beatles anthology. Um and uh called the Beatles anthology. Um and uh called the Beatles anthology. Um and uh it's old but it's re it's reurbished in it's old but it's re it's reurbished in it's old but it's re it's reurbished in some way by uh the guy who directed um some way by uh the guy who directed um some way by uh the guy who directed um The Hobbit and The Lord of the Rings. The Hobbit and The Lord of the Rings. The Hobbit and The Lord of the Rings. Anyway, it's amazing. And then I was uh Anyway, it's amazing. And then I was uh Anyway, it's amazing. And then I was uh clicking around last night and saw that clicking around last night and saw that clicking around last night and saw that there was a Beatles documentary like a there was a Beatles documentary like a there was a Beatles documentary like a feature like an an hour and a half long feature like an an hour and a half long feature like an an hour and a half long thing uh about John and it wasn't about thing uh about John and it wasn't about thing uh about John and it wasn't about the Beatles specifically. It was about the Beatles specifically. It was about the Beatles specifically. It was about John Lennon and Yoko in their first year John Lennon and Yoko in their first year John Lennon and Yoko in their first year in New York after the Beatles broke up. in New York after the Beatles broke up. in New York after the Beatles broke up. And there's this I had never seen it And there's this I had never seen it And there's this I had never seen it before. It's called One to One. And uh before. It's called One to One. And uh before. It's called One to One. And uh I'm only halfway through it. It's really I'm only halfway through it. It's really I'm only halfway through it. It's really good. But there's this moment where John good. But there's this moment where John good. But there's this moment where John in their first year before they moved in their first year before they moved in their first year before they moved into the Dakota and their fancy into the Dakota and their fancy into the Dakota and their fancy apartment out outside in the building apartment out outside in the building apartment out outside in the building outside of which John Lynon was outside of which John Lynon was outside of which John Lynon was eventually shot and killed. Uh they eventually shot and killed. Uh they eventually shot and killed. Uh they lived in a in I believe a garden lived in a in I believe a garden lived in a in I believe a garden apartment in the West Village, a very apartment in the West Village, a very apartment in the West Village, a very small modest apartment. And John is small modest apartment. And John is small modest apartment. And John is talking about the fact that he had this talking about the fact that he had this talking about the fact that he had this beautiful estate. He had grown up beautiful estate. He had grown up beautiful estate. He had grown up without much. And he had this beautiful without much. And he had this beautiful without much. And he had this beautiful estate outside of London. And um he gave estate outside of London. And um he gave estate outside of London. And um he gave it all up and moved into this quite it all up and moved into this quite it all up and moved into this quite modest apartment. um with Yoko uh where modest apartment. um with Yoko uh where modest apartment. um with Yoko uh where they live for a year and he was so much they live for a year and he was so much they live for a year and he was so much I think he used the phrase I'm happy as I think he used the phrase I'm happy as I think he used the phrase I'm happy as Larry which I guess is some sort of Larry which I guess is some sort of Larry which I guess is some sort of British uh expression that I don't fully British uh expression that I don't fully British uh expression that I don't fully understand who Larry is. So anyway, I understand who Larry is. So anyway, I understand who Larry is. So anyway, I say all of that to get to this question say all of that to get to this question say all of that to get to this question which is I think we can all agree that which is I think we can all agree that which is I think we can all agree that managing our expectations managing our expectations managing our expectations striving for contentment is happy with striving for contentment is happy with striving for contentment is happy with again the asterisk that you issued again the asterisk that you issued again the asterisk that you issued before which is that um that's not to before which is that um that's not to before which is that um that's not to say that we should be complacent or say that we should be complacent or say that we should be complacent or resigned or not or killing our ambition resigned or not or killing our ambition resigned or not or killing our ambition but managing our expectations getting as but managing our expectations getting as but managing our expectations getting as many hits of contentment in our mind many hits of contentment in our mind many hits of contentment in our mind stream so that we are balancing our stream so that we are balancing our stream so that we are balancing our ambition with um um sanity. ambition with um um sanity. ambition with um um sanity. My question is how what are the My question is how what are the My question is how what are the modalities for doing that? modalities for doing that? modalities for doing that? >> The first thing I bring up it's I I I >> The first thing I bring up it's I I I >> The first thing I bring up it's I I I like that you bring up the Beatles cuz like that you bring up the Beatles cuz like that you bring up the Beatles cuz they did something that's very rare for they did something that's very rare for they did something that's very rare for successful people. You you you'll successful people. You you you'll successful people. You you you'll probably know this answer. How long were probably know this answer. How long were probably know this answer. How long were they a band for or let's say a big like they a band for or let's say a big like they a band for or let's say a big like international band? It was a very short international band? It was a very short international band? It was a very short period of time. I don't know the number period of time. I don't know the number period of time. I don't know the number of years. You might of years. You might of years. You might >> Well, so they were together for a long >> Well, so they were together for a long >> Well, so they were together for a long time. So when starting when they were time. So when starting when they were time. So when starting when they were teenagers, but they were a big teenagers, but they were a big teenagers, but they were a big international band I think starting in international band I think starting in international band I think starting in like ' 64 65 and then they broke up in I like ' 64 65 and then they broke up in I like ' 64 65 and then they broke up in I think ' 69 or 70. So very short run. think ' 69 or 70. So very short run. think ' 69 or 70. So very short run. >> And the reason I bring that up is you >> And the reason I bring that up is you >> And the reason I bring that up is you can easily imagine in alternative can easily imagine in alternative can easily imagine in alternative history where they just cranked out history where they just cranked out history where they just cranked out album after album after album into the album after album after album into the album after album after album into the 80s and kind of thing that weren't that 80s and kind of thing that weren't that 80s and kind of thing that weren't that good. I think a lot of the reason there good. I think a lot of the reason there good. I think a lot of the reason there is so much uh affinity for the for the is so much uh affinity for the for the is so much uh affinity for the for the Beatles and why they're so beloved is Beatles and why they're so beloved is Beatles and why they're so beloved is the power of scarcity. They came up and the power of scarcity. They came up and the power of scarcity. They came up and I know they they they broke up for not I know they they they broke up for not I know they they they broke up for not always positive reasons, but there was a always positive reasons, but there was a always positive reasons, but there was a sense of enough of just like the reason sense of enough of just like the reason sense of enough of just like the reason we love them is because there's not that we love them is because there's not that we love them is because there's not that much of them. And let me give you the much of them. And let me give you the much of them. And let me give you the alternative to that. The Simpsons. The alternative to that. The Simpsons. The alternative to that. The Simpsons. The Simpsons are still creating new Simpsons are still creating new Simpsons are still creating new episodes. And from what I understand, no episodes. And from what I understand, no episodes. And from what I understand, no uh no, you know, not to disservice the uh no, you know, not to disservice the uh no, you know, not to disservice the people work on the show, but they suck. people work on the show, but they suck. people work on the show, but they suck. It's not that good. It was absolutely It's not that good. It was absolutely It's not that good. It was absolutely genius in the 1990s when a lot of us genius in the 1990s when a lot of us genius in the 1990s when a lot of us watched it, but they kept going and watched it, but they kept going and watched it, but they kept going and going and going. And the alternative to going and going. And the alternative to going and going. And the alternative to that would be something like Seinfeld that would be something like Seinfeld that would be something like Seinfeld quit on top. And a lot of the reason quit on top. And a lot of the reason quit on top. And a lot of the reason they're beloved, the show is beloved they're beloved, the show is beloved they're beloved, the show is beloved today is because scarcity. Like it was a today is because scarcity. Like it was a today is because scarcity. Like it was a no. We don't have that much of it. So I no. We don't have that much of it. So I no. We don't have that much of it. So I think there's a lot of life like what think there's a lot of life like what think there's a lot of life like what makes it great is because of scarcity. I makes it great is because of scarcity. I makes it great is because of scarcity. I use this example in the book of this use this example in the book of this use this example in the book of this friend of mine is very wealthy and he friend of mine is very wealthy and he friend of mine is very wealthy and he has a private chef that makes him three has a private chef that makes him three has a private chef that makes him three meals a day and these are like Michelin meals a day and these are like Michelin meals a day and these are like Michelin starred meals that he eats three meals a starred meals that he eats three meals a starred meals that he eats three meals a day and gets that seven days a week and day and gets that seven days a week and day and gets that seven days a week and I'm a little bit jealous of course of I'm a little bit jealous of course of I'm a little bit jealous of course of that whenever I see him like that's that whenever I see him like that's that whenever I see him like that's amazing. I guarantee you though no amazing. I guarantee you though no amazing. I guarantee you though no guarantee I I can tell you as a fact he guarantee I I can tell you as a fact he guarantee I I can tell you as a fact he does not appreciate it 1% to the extent does not appreciate it 1% to the extent does not appreciate it 1% to the extent that you and I think would think he was that you and I think would think he was that you and I think would think he was because that's all he knows. The reason because that's all he knows. The reason because that's all he knows. The reason that it seems amazing to you and I is or that it seems amazing to you and I is or that it seems amazing to you and I is or to me as I say is because I am used to to me as I say is because I am used to to me as I say is because I am used to the the the gr slop that I make myself the the the gr slop that I make myself the the the gr slop that I make myself for breakfast. So the incredible like for breakfast. So the incredible like for breakfast. So the incredible like Michelin burrito that he's eaten for Michelin burrito that he's eaten for Michelin burrito that he's eaten for breakfast by comparison seems amazing. breakfast by comparison seems amazing. breakfast by comparison seems amazing. But he doesn't know anything different. But he doesn't know anything different. But he doesn't know anything different. And so what feels good is like is is the And so what feels good is like is is the And so what feels good is like is is the power of of scarcity and like trying power of of scarcity and like trying power of of scarcity and like trying something new. That's the first thing something new. That's the first thing something new. That's the first thing I'd bring up. a a more direct answer of I'd bring up. a a more direct answer of I'd bring up. a a more direct answer of how we can go about doing this is I how we can go about doing this is I how we can go about doing this is I think people always overestimate to a think people always overestimate to a think people always overestimate to a profound degree how much attention and profound degree how much attention and profound degree how much attention and social status you get from other people social status you get from other people social status you get from other people for your material possessions. It is so for your material possessions. It is so for your material possessions. It is so easy to assume if I had this house, this easy to assume if I had this house, this easy to assume if I had this house, this car, this jewelry, these clothes, car, this jewelry, these clothes, car, this jewelry, these clothes, whatever it be that person and most of whatever it be that person and most of whatever it be that person and most of the time that person is a complete the time that person is a complete the time that person is a complete stranger. It's just the rest of society stranger. It's just the rest of society stranger. It's just the rest of society would think better of me. They would would think better of me. They would would think better of me. They would give me more respect, more admiration, give me more respect, more admiration, give me more respect, more admiration, whatnot. And we always overestimate that whatnot. And we always overestimate that whatnot. And we always overestimate that because nobody is thinking about you as because nobody is thinking about you as because nobody is thinking about you as much as you are. Nobody cares about your much as you are. Nobody cares about your much as you are. Nobody cares about your house or your cars or your clothes as house or your cars or your clothes as house or your cars or your clothes as much as you do. They're busy thinking much as you do. They're busy thinking much as you do. They're busy thinking about themselves. And so when you come about themselves. And so when you come about themselves. And so when you come to terms with that game that nobody is to terms with that game that nobody is to terms with that game that nobody is looking at you as much as you do. There looking at you as much as you do. There looking at you as much as you do. There was a study I saw there was a very was a study I saw there was a very was a study I saw there was a very brilliant study that I think really put brilliant study that I think really put brilliant study that I think really put put a pin in this. They would take put a pin in this. They would take put a pin in this. They would take someone and give them a hideous sweater, someone and give them a hideous sweater, someone and give them a hideous sweater, an ugly, ugly sweater, just objectively an ugly, ugly sweater, just objectively an ugly, ugly sweater, just objectively awful sweater, and they would send that awful sweater, and they would send that awful sweater, and they would send that person into a big crowded bar or party, person into a big crowded bar or party, person into a big crowded bar or party, whatever it might be, and then they whatever it might be, and then they whatever it might be, and then they would bring that person out and they would bring that person out and they would bring that person out and they would say, "How many people in that would say, "How many people in that would say, "How many people in that party do you think noticed your party do you think noticed your party do you think noticed your sweater?" And the person wearing it sweater?" And the person wearing it sweater?" And the person wearing it would be like 80% of people saw me and would be like 80% of people saw me and would be like 80% of people saw me and judge me for my sweater. And then they judge me for my sweater. And then they judge me for my sweater. And then they would go in and ask the people at at the would go in and ask the people at at the would go in and ask the people at at the party, "How many of you noticed the party, "How many of you noticed the party, "How many of you noticed the woman in the ugly sweater?" And the woman in the ugly sweater?" And the woman in the ugly sweater?" And the answer was nobody. Nobody's paying answer was nobody. Nobody's paying answer was nobody. Nobody's paying attention to you as much as you think attention to you as much as you think attention to you as much as you think you are. And so once you come to terms you are. And so once you come to terms you are. And so once you come to terms with that, then you can use your money with that, then you can use your money with that, then you can use your money for what I think is the most powerful for what I think is the most powerful for what I think is the most powerful thing, which is independence. Like, stop thing, which is independence. Like, stop thing, which is independence. Like, stop trying to get the attention of other trying to get the attention of other trying to get the attention of other people who don't care about you and people who don't care about you and people who don't care about you and aren't paying attention to you. Use it aren't paying attention to you. Use it aren't paying attention to you. Use it for the independence of yourself and for the independence of yourself and for the independence of yourself and your family and your very close group of your family and your very close group of your family and your very close group of friends. That's where you can have the friends. That's where you can have the friends. That's where you can have the most power with it. And so, that's all most power with it. And so, that's all most power with it. And so, that's all I've ever wanted out of money is is I've ever wanted out of money is is I've ever wanted out of money is is independence. I just want to wake up independence. I just want to wake up independence. I just want to wake up every morning and say, I can do whatever every morning and say, I can do whatever every morning and say, I can do whatever I want today. I couldn't give give two I want today. I couldn't give give two I want today. I couldn't give give two shits about what other people, strangers shits about what other people, strangers shits about what other people, strangers out there are thinking of me. I out there are thinking of me. I out there are thinking of me. I desperately want and need the love and desperately want and need the love and desperately want and need the love and attention from my wife, my kids, my attention from my wife, my kids, my attention from my wife, my kids, my parents, and maybe two of my friends, parents, and maybe two of my friends, parents, and maybe two of my friends, and that's that's it. It's going to be and that's that's it. It's going to be and that's that's it. It's going to be different for everybody, but that's different for everybody, but that's different for everybody, but that's pretty much it. And then it drops off pretty much it. And then it drops off pretty much it. And then it drops off precipitously from there. And it should precipitously from there. And it should precipitously from there. And it should because they're not paying attention. because they're not paying attention. because they're not paying attention. And the truth, too, is my six-year-old And the truth, too, is my six-year-old And the truth, too, is my six-year-old daughter does not care how many daughter does not care how many daughter does not care how many horsepower my car has. my my parents horsepower my car has. my my parents horsepower my car has. my my parents don't care how many square feet my my my don't care how many square feet my my my don't care how many square feet my my my my house is. I kind of like they they my house is. I kind of like they they my house is. I kind of like they they they're going to care about much more they're going to care about much more they're going to care about much more durable things like your your love and durable things like your your love and durable things like your your love and your attention and you can use money for your attention and you can use money for your attention and you can use money for those things. And so I think that's part those things. And so I think that's part those things. And so I think that's part of it with the asterisk as I said of it with the asterisk as I said of it with the asterisk as I said earlier that it's much easier said than earlier that it's much easier said than earlier that it's much easier said than done and it takes almost daily practice done and it takes almost daily practice done and it takes almost daily practice for this. But that's how I've always for this. But that's how I've always for this. But that's how I've always thought about it. If you're using money thought about it. If you're using money thought about it. If you're using money to socially climb, you're always going to socially climb, you're always going to socially climb, you're always going to overestimate the rewards. If you're to overestimate the rewards. If you're to overestimate the rewards. If you're using it for your own independence, it's using it for your own independence, it's using it for your own independence, it's one of the most miraculous tools that one of the most miraculous tools that one of the most miraculous tools that exists. When you say using it for your exists. When you say using it for your exists. When you say using it for your own independence, what do you mean by own independence, what do you mean by own independence, what do you mean by that? that? that? >> I've always been a big saver since I was >> I've always been a big saver since I was >> I've always been a big saver since I was 16 or 17 and started earning and started 16 or 17 and started earning and started 16 or 17 and started earning and started earning money. And I uh I I I didn't put earning money. And I uh I I I didn't put earning money. And I uh I I I didn't put this into words until much later, but I this into words until much later, but I this into words until much later, but I always viewed it even back then that I always viewed it even back then that I always viewed it even back then that I wasn't saving money. I was buying wasn't saving money. I was buying wasn't saving money. I was buying independence. That every dollar that I independence. That every dollar that I independence. That every dollar that I saved was an independence token. And it saved was an independence token. And it saved was an independence token. And it wasn't delayed gratification. It wasn't wasn't delayed gratification. It wasn't wasn't delayed gratification. It wasn't like I'm saving money so that I can like I'm saving money so that I can like I'm saving money so that I can spend it down the road and then I'll be spend it down the road and then I'll be spend it down the road and then I'll be happy. I got pleasure out of that happy. I got pleasure out of that happy. I got pleasure out of that savings every day because I woke up savings every day because I woke up savings every day because I woke up knowing if I lose my job, if I get hurt, knowing if I lose my job, if I get hurt, knowing if I lose my job, if I get hurt, if I want to move, if I want to go get a if I want to move, if I want to go get a if I want to move, if I want to go get a different job, I have total flexibility different job, I have total flexibility different job, I have total flexibility to do that because of this financial to do that because of this financial to do that because of this financial cushion that I have. And I think people cushion that I have. And I think people cushion that I have. And I think people just as a survival mechanism massively just as a survival mechanism massively just as a survival mechanism massively underestimate the odds of something bad underestimate the odds of something bad underestimate the odds of something bad happening to them. happening to them. happening to them. >> And so if I said, what are the odds that >> And so if I said, what are the odds that >> And so if I said, what are the odds that you and I will face at least one of you and I will face at least one of you and I will face at least one of these over the next 30 years? major these over the next 30 years? major these over the next 30 years? major medical illness, job loss, divorce, medical illness, job loss, divorce, medical illness, job loss, divorce, weward children, going on down the list weward children, going on down the list weward children, going on down the list of whatever that would be. The odds that of whatever that would be. The odds that of whatever that would be. The odds that we will experience at least one of them, we will experience at least one of them, we will experience at least one of them, if not all of them, are nearly 100%. if not all of them, are nearly 100%. if not all of them, are nearly 100%. That at least one of those will impact That at least one of those will impact That at least one of those will impact our life. And so people underestimate our life. And so people underestimate our life. And so people underestimate that odd because if they were honest that odd because if they were honest that odd because if they were honest with those odds, it'd be hard to get out with those odds, it'd be hard to get out with those odds, it'd be hard to get out of bed in the morning. And so once a of bed in the morning. And so once a of bed in the morning. And so once a decade, if if you're saving money, uh in decade, if if you're saving money, uh in decade, if if you're saving money, uh in nine of those years, it'll feel like a nine of those years, it'll feel like a nine of those years, it'll feel like a waste. In one of those years, you'll be waste. In one of those years, you'll be waste. In one of those years, you'll be like, "This is the most incredible like, "This is the most incredible like, "This is the most incredible thing. I have so much independence and thing. I have so much independence and thing. I have so much independence and flexibility because this terrible thing flexibility because this terrible thing flexibility because this terrible thing happened in my personal life or in the happened in my personal life or in the happened in my personal life or in the economy and I have a little bit of economy and I have a little bit of economy and I have a little bit of financial oxygen to deal with it now. I financial oxygen to deal with it now. I financial oxygen to deal with it now. I think it's it's it's it's m it's it's think it's it's it's it's m it's it's think it's it's it's it's m it's it's it's it's huge and everybody has it's it's huge and everybody has it's it's huge and everybody has incredible talents. Every single person incredible talents. Every single person incredible talents. Every single person has incredible talents, but you can has incredible talents, but you can has incredible talents, but you can really only utilize it if you have some really only utilize it if you have some really only utilize it if you have some degree of independence. It's very degree of independence. It's very degree of independence. It's very difficult to know who you are or what difficult to know who you are or what difficult to know who you are or what you're capable of if your entire life, you're capable of if your entire life, you're capable of if your entire life, particularly in your professional life, particularly in your professional life, particularly in your professional life, is following somebody else's orders, is following somebody else's orders, is following somebody else's orders, somebody else's dreams, somebody else's somebody else's dreams, somebody else's somebody else's dreams, somebody else's ideas. And so, the material stuff that ideas. And so, the material stuff that ideas. And so, the material stuff that we all want in our life is going to be we all want in our life is going to be we all want in our life is going to be different from person to person. I think different from person to person. I think different from person to person. I think it's a universal thing that people want it's a universal thing that people want it's a universal thing that people want independence and can thrive with independence and can thrive with independence and can thrive with independence. independence. independence. >> This episode is sponsored by Better >> This episode is sponsored by Better >> This episode is sponsored by Better Help. Sometimes it can feel like Help. Sometimes it can feel like Help. Sometimes it can feel like everybody else has it all together in everybody else has it all together in everybody else has it all together in their love lives. Whether married, their love lives. Whether married, their love lives. Whether married, dating, or single, the truth is many of dating, or single, the truth is many of dating, or single, the truth is many of us are uh still figuring it out and us are uh still figuring it out and us are uh still figuring it out and finding our way. And no matter where you finding our way. And no matter where you finding our way. And no matter where you are in your romance journey, therapy can are in your romance journey, therapy can are in your romance journey, therapy can help you find your way, help you help you find your way, help you help you find your way, help you determine what you want, what feels determine what you want, what feels determine what you want, what feels heavy, and how you can take some of the heavy, and how you can take some of the heavy, and how you can take some of the pressure off yourself. This issue of our pressure off yourself. This issue of our pressure off yourself. This issue of our romantic lives or lack thereof can be romantic lives or lack thereof can be romantic lives or lack thereof can be particularly fraught in February which particularly fraught in February which particularly fraught in February which is full of flowers and candy and stuffed is full of flowers and candy and stuffed is full of flowers and candy and stuffed animals and lots of talk about animals and lots of talk about animals and lots of talk about relationships and dating and therapy can relationships and dating and therapy can relationships and dating and therapy can be a great way to work out your issues be a great way to work out your issues be a great way to work out your issues whatever they are. I have found that whatever they are. I have found that whatever they are. I have found that individual therapy and couples individual therapy and couples individual therapy and couples counseling can be extremely helpful for counseling can be extremely helpful for counseling can be extremely helpful for me personally. BetterHelp has quality me personally. BetterHelp has quality me personally. BetterHelp has quality therapists who work according to a therapists who work according to a therapists who work according to a strict code of conduct and are fully strict code of conduct and are fully strict code of conduct and are fully licensed in the US. BetterHelp does the licensed in the US. BetterHelp does the licensed in the US. BetterHelp does the initial matching work for you so you can initial matching work for you so you can initial matching work for you so you can focus on your therapy goals. They give focus on your therapy goals. They give focus on your therapy goals. 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Sign up and get 10% off recommendations. Sign up and get 10% off recommendations. Sign up and get 10% off at betterhelp.com/happier. at betterhelp.com/happier. at betterhelp.com/happier. That's betterhp.com/happier. Let's go back to scarcity for a second. Let's go back to scarcity for a second. I think maybe there's more to say on I think maybe there's more to say on I think maybe there's more to say on this score. Um, this score. Um, this score. Um, correct me if I'm wrong and we can cut correct me if I'm wrong and we can cut correct me if I'm wrong and we can cut this if it if I am wrong. Um, but that this if it if I am wrong. Um, but that this if it if I am wrong. Um, but that there that there may be a way to there that there may be a way to there that there may be a way to introduce introduce introduce scarcity into your life in a way that scarcity into your life in a way that scarcity into your life in a way that actually helps you manage your actually helps you manage your actually helps you manage your expectations by, you know, having little expectations by, you know, having little expectations by, you know, having little luxuries intermittently instead of luxuries intermittently instead of luxuries intermittently instead of expecting some sort of steady stream of expecting some sort of steady stream of expecting some sort of steady stream of them. Am I on to something with that? them. Am I on to something with that? them. Am I on to something with that? >> You're absolutely right about that. And >> You're absolutely right about that. And >> You're absolutely right about that. And back to my friend with the the private back to my friend with the the private back to my friend with the the private chef, um, going out to a very fancy chef, um, going out to a very fancy chef, um, going out to a very fancy dinner once or twice a year feels dinner once or twice a year feels dinner once or twice a year feels amazing because it's rare and unique. amazing because it's rare and unique. amazing because it's rare and unique. When you get it three meals a day, it When you get it three meals a day, it When you get it three meals a day, it feels like nothing. Christmas feels feels like nothing. Christmas feels feels like nothing. Christmas feels amazing because it's once a year. If you amazing because it's once a year. If you amazing because it's once a year. If you if if it was all the time, you just if if it was all the time, you just if if it was all the time, you just wonder why you have a pine tree sitting wonder why you have a pine tree sitting wonder why you have a pine tree sitting in your room and that kind of thing. And in your room and that kind of thing. And in your room and that kind of thing. And so I I think there's there's a lot of so I I think there's there's a lot of so I I think there's there's a lot of truth to that that um part of the reason truth to that that um part of the reason truth to that that um part of the reason that I want to live I'm not going to say that I want to live I'm not going to say that I want to live I'm not going to say a frugal life, but a a simple life is a frugal life, but a a simple life is a frugal life, but a a simple life is because the occasional luxury feels because the occasional luxury feels because the occasional luxury feels amazing when you do it. If you're doing amazing when you do it. If you're doing amazing when you do it. If you're doing it all the time, it just becomes the it all the time, it just becomes the it all the time, it just becomes the norm. And there's there's a lot of this. norm. And there's there's a lot of this. norm. And there's there's a lot of this. You and I and nobody wakes up every You and I and nobody wakes up every You and I and nobody wakes up every morning and says, "Gosh, I'm so grateful morning and says, "Gosh, I'm so grateful morning and says, "Gosh, I'm so grateful for penicellin. I'm so grateful that we for penicellin. I'm so grateful that we for penicellin. I'm so grateful that we have penicellin." It just became have penicellin." It just became have penicellin." It just became something that everybody expected. But something that everybody expected. But something that everybody expected. But if you had explained a penicellin to if you had explained a penicellin to if you had explained a penicellin to somebody 150 years ago that, hey, all somebody 150 years ago that, hey, all somebody 150 years ago that, hey, all these illnesses that killed seven of these illnesses that killed seven of these illnesses that killed seven of your 10 children by the year 2025 or your 10 children by the year 2025 or your 10 children by the year 2025 or much much earlier than that, we just much much earlier than that, we just much much earlier than that, we just have a pill that costs $2 and just wipes have a pill that costs $2 and just wipes have a pill that costs $2 and just wipes everything out and you're fine. that everything out and you're fine. that everything out and you're fine. that would have seemed like the most would have seemed like the most would have seemed like the most incredible miracle ever, but now it's incredible miracle ever, but now it's incredible miracle ever, but now it's everywhere and it's always when whenever everywhere and it's always when whenever everywhere and it's always when whenever you need it, it's there. So, we don't you need it, it's there. So, we don't you need it, it's there. So, we don't think much of it. So, there's a lot of think much of it. So, there's a lot of think much of it. So, there's a lot of example of like luxury becomes necessity example of like luxury becomes necessity example of like luxury becomes necessity very quickly in life and people can get very quickly in life and people can get very quickly in life and people can get accustomed to nearly anything. Uh this accustomed to nearly anything. Uh this accustomed to nearly anything. Uh this was the great philosopher Chris Rock uh was the great philosopher Chris Rock uh was the great philosopher Chris Rock uh who said if Bill Gates woke up with who said if Bill Gates woke up with who said if Bill Gates woke up with Opra's money, he'd jump out the window. Opra's money, he'd jump out the window. Opra's money, he'd jump out the window. Like no matter how much luxury you have, Like no matter how much luxury you have, Like no matter how much luxury you have, you just get accustomed to it in 3 you just get accustomed to it in 3 you just get accustomed to it in 3 seconds. And so that's when living a seconds. And so that's when living a seconds. And so that's when living a simple life and introducing luxury to simple life and introducing luxury to simple life and introducing luxury to yourself in small doses is actually the yourself in small doses is actually the yourself in small doses is actually the way to maximize the amount of pleasure way to maximize the amount of pleasure way to maximize the amount of pleasure you get out of it. you get out of it. you get out of it. >> Chris Rock is so brilliant. Um your >> Chris Rock is so brilliant. Um your >> Chris Rock is so brilliant. Um your story about penicellin reminds me of story about penicellin reminds me of story about penicellin reminds me of something. I I have this longtime friend something. I I have this longtime friend something. I I have this longtime friend and meditation teacher, Joseph and meditation teacher, Joseph and meditation teacher, Joseph Goldstein, who comes on the show a lot Goldstein, who comes on the show a lot Goldstein, who comes on the show a lot and so I talk about him a lot because and so I talk about him a lot because and so I talk about him a lot because he's a big part of my life. And he has he's a big part of my life. And he has he's a big part of my life. And he has this story of being of basically killing this story of being of basically killing this story of being of basically killing the whole vibe at a Thanksgiving dinner the whole vibe at a Thanksgiving dinner the whole vibe at a Thanksgiving dinner with his family one year um with his with his family one year um with his with his family one year um with his brother and his brother's wife and their brother and his brother's wife and their brother and his brother's wife and their children and they were going around the children and they were going around the children and they were going around the table uh talking about what they were table uh talking about what they were table uh talking about what they were grateful for cuz that's the type of grateful for cuz that's the type of grateful for cuz that's the type of thing you do on Thanksgiving. And Joseph thing you do on Thanksgiving. And Joseph thing you do on Thanksgiving. And Joseph said, "I am so grateful that when I turn said, "I am so grateful that when I turn said, "I am so grateful that when I turn on the hot water tap, hot water comes on the hot water tap, hot water comes on the hot water tap, hot water comes out of it." Like, that's crazy. And most out of it." Like, that's crazy. And most out of it." Like, that's crazy. And most of the world doesn't have that. of the world doesn't have that. of the world doesn't have that. Everybody at the table is like, "What Everybody at the table is like, "What Everybody at the table is like, "What are you talking about, dude?" But it, are you talking about, dude?" But it, are you talking about, dude?" But it, >> you know, if you tune into stuff like >> you know, if you tune into stuff like >> you know, if you tune into stuff like that, it that, it that, it >> it makes life look entirely different. >> it makes life look entirely different. >> it makes life look entirely different. >> And you you you asked a few questions >> And you you you asked a few questions >> And you you you asked a few questions ago about like how to be more uh content ago about like how to be more uh content ago about like how to be more uh content with what you have. I think being a with what you have. I think being a with what you have. I think being a student of history is very important student of history is very important student of history is very important here. when you learn what life used to here. when you learn what life used to here. when you learn what life used to be like be like be like >> and let's I I' I've used this example >> and let's I I' I've used this example >> and let's I I' I've used this example before in in my first book. John D. before in in my first book. John D. before in in my first book. John D. Rockefeller was the richest man of the Rockefeller was the richest man of the Rockefeller was the richest man of the world at his time. He didn't have world at his time. He didn't have world at his time. He didn't have penicellin. Not only that, he didn't penicellin. Not only that, he didn't penicellin. Not only that, he didn't have Advil. He didn't have sunscreen. He have Advil. He didn't have sunscreen. He have Advil. He didn't have sunscreen. He didn't have electricity for most of his didn't have electricity for most of his didn't have electricity for most of his adult life. He didn't have a tiny adult life. He didn't have a tiny adult life. He didn't have a tiny fraction of any of the medical care that fraction of any of the medical care that fraction of any of the medical care that you and I can get at urgent care right you and I can get at urgent care right you and I can get at urgent care right down the street. And it's not to say down the street. And it's not to say down the street. And it's not to say that the average person is living better that the average person is living better that the average person is living better than John D. D. Rockefeller. Uh but but than John D. D. Rockefeller. Uh but but than John D. D. Rockefeller. Uh but but there's there there's a list of things. there's there there's a list of things. there's there there's a list of things. It's it's just an example of like how It's it's just an example of like how It's it's just an example of like how quickly luxuries become necessities for quickly luxuries become necessities for quickly luxuries become necessities for everybody. And you can easily imagine a everybody. And you can easily imagine a everybody. And you can easily imagine a world in which our children um let's say world in which our children um let's say world in which our children um let's say for example uh don't have to worry about for example uh don't have to worry about for example uh don't have to worry about cancer that it's just something that cancer that it's just something that cancer that it's just something that we've kind of solved 30 or 40 years from we've kind of solved 30 or 40 years from we've kind of solved 30 or 40 years from now. I'm not a medical professional. I now. I'm not a medical professional. I now. I'm not a medical professional. I have no idea. But let's say that's the have no idea. But let's say that's the have no idea. But let's say that's the case. Almost certainly they will not case. Almost certainly they will not case. Almost certainly they will not feel the sense of gratitude that feel the sense of gratitude that feel the sense of gratitude that imagining that scenario um feels like imagining that scenario um feels like imagining that scenario um feels like today. When when when you and I say that today. When when when you and I say that today. When when when you and I say that you guys won't have to worry about you guys won't have to worry about you guys won't have to worry about cancer. It's like this is the most cancer. It's like this is the most cancer. It's like this is the most amazing world and you're going to wake amazing world and you're going to wake amazing world and you're going to wake up every day so grateful for it. No, up every day so grateful for it. No, up every day so grateful for it. No, they won't. They'll find something else they won't. They'll find something else they won't. They'll find something else to complain about. Just like you and I to complain about. Just like you and I to complain about. Just like you and I don't have to worry about dying from don't have to worry about dying from don't have to worry about dying from scarlet fever, which would have seemed scarlet fever, which would have seemed scarlet fever, which would have seemed preposterous 150 years ago. So, one of preposterous 150 years ago. So, one of preposterous 150 years ago. So, one of the ways to become more grateful about the ways to become more grateful about the ways to become more grateful about what you have today is to become a what you have today is to become a what you have today is to become a deeper student of history and to learn deeper student of history and to learn deeper student of history and to learn about what life was like for 99% of about what life was like for 99% of about what life was like for 99% of people who came before us. people who came before us. people who came before us. >> Okay. So, if we go all the way back to >> Okay. So, if we go all the way back to >> Okay. So, if we go all the way back to the question I asked before, like how do the question I asked before, like how do the question I asked before, like how do you manage your expectations? How do you you manage your expectations? How do you you manage your expectations? How do you have some contentment? Again, have some contentment? Again, have some contentment? Again, not the type of contentment and uh not the type of contentment and uh not the type of contentment and uh reduced expectations that put you on the reduced expectations that put you on the reduced expectations that put you on the couch forever, but that kind of takes couch forever, but that kind of takes couch forever, but that kind of takes the edge off of the natural healthy the edge off of the natural healthy the edge off of the natural healthy ambition that many of us feel. So, how ambition that many of us feel. So, how ambition that many of us feel. So, how do you do it? I'm I'm hearing a at least do you do it? I'm I'm hearing a at least do you do it? I'm I'm hearing a at least four things and and I'm running them by four things and and I'm running them by four things and and I'm running them by you just to make sure I understand them you just to make sure I understand them you just to make sure I understand them correctly and also just to make sure correctly and also just to make sure correctly and also just to make sure there isn't something we missed. One is, there isn't something we missed. One is, there isn't something we missed. One is, you know, living a simple life uh so you know, living a simple life uh so you know, living a simple life uh so that there's a kind of so that the that there's a kind of so that the that there's a kind of so that the luxuries you do have um actually produce luxuries you do have um actually produce luxuries you do have um actually produce dopamine and aren't, you know, absorbed dopamine and aren't, you know, absorbed dopamine and aren't, you know, absorbed in the hydonic treadmill that is so um in the hydonic treadmill that is so um in the hydonic treadmill that is so um so prevalent in uh in in our lives. so prevalent in uh in in our lives. so prevalent in uh in in our lives. relate on a related note becoming a relate on a related note becoming a relate on a related note becoming a student of history as a route to student of history as a route to student of history as a route to gratitude you know understanding that gratitude you know understanding that gratitude you know understanding that you know if you look at your life you know if you look at your life you know if you look at your life through the lens of Thomas Jefferson or through the lens of Thomas Jefferson or through the lens of Thomas Jefferson or or a Rockefeller there's a lot of stuff or a Rockefeller there's a lot of stuff or a Rockefeller there's a lot of stuff that you should be you could be really that you should be you could be really that you should be you could be really grateful for um realize that the the the grateful for um realize that the the the grateful for um realize that the the the thing you think is uh the purchase you thing you think is uh the purchase you thing you think is uh the purchase you think is going to bring you increased think is going to bring you increased think is going to bring you increased status and universal acclaim is actually status and universal acclaim is actually status and universal acclaim is actually um not likely to do that given that most um not likely to do that given that most um not likely to do that given that most people are stuck in their own movie and people are stuck in their own movie and people are stuck in their own movie and they're not that concerned with you. Um they're not that concerned with you. Um they're not that concerned with you. Um and then finally, um actually the best and then finally, um actually the best and then finally, um actually the best it's it's like knowing that the best use it's it's like knowing that the best use it's it's like knowing that the best use of money is not acquisition, of money is not acquisition, of money is not acquisition, accumulation, accumulation, accumulation, um the feudal uh pursuit of um of um the feudal uh pursuit of um of um the feudal uh pursuit of um of status. It's uh to get to buy yourself status. It's uh to get to buy yourself status. It's uh to get to buy yourself independence, to buy yourself freedom, independence, to buy yourself freedom, independence, to buy yourself freedom, um some sort of buffer against life's um some sort of buffer against life's um some sort of buffer against life's inevitable ups and downs. inevitable ups and downs. inevitable ups and downs. >> I think that's I think that's right. I >> I think that's I think that's right. I >> I think that's I think that's right. I would use this more recent example that would use this more recent example that would use this more recent example that I heard recently that that I really I heard recently that that I really I heard recently that that I really like. Andrew Russ Orcin just wrote a like. Andrew Russ Orcin just wrote a like. Andrew Russ Orcin just wrote a book called 1929 about the the crash book called 1929 about the the crash book called 1929 about the the crash that the stock market crash in 1929. that the stock market crash in 1929. that the stock market crash in 1929. It's fascinating book about the early It's fascinating book about the early It's fascinating book about the early days of the Great Depression. And in one days of the Great Depression. And in one days of the Great Depression. And in one of the reviews, I thought this is a very of the reviews, I thought this is a very of the reviews, I thought this is a very astute thing to point out in the review. astute thing to point out in the review. astute thing to point out in the review. Uh virtually all of the big characters Uh virtually all of the big characters Uh virtually all of the big characters that are portrayed in that book who were that are portrayed in that book who were that are portrayed in that book who were the titans of their day back in the the titans of their day back in the the titans of their day back in the 1920s, some of the richest men in the 1920s, some of the richest men in the 1920s, some of the richest men in the world, the most powerful people in the world, the most powerful people in the world, the most powerful people in the country, virtually all of them are country, virtually all of them are country, virtually all of them are forgotten today. And so if I think this forgotten today. And so if I think this forgotten today. And so if I think this is another kind of subtle example of you is another kind of subtle example of you is another kind of subtle example of you could be the richest person in the world could be the richest person in the world could be the richest person in the world with the biggest mansion in New York and with the biggest mansion in New York and with the biggest mansion in New York and whatnot. Nobody cares. You're you're not whatnot. Nobody cares. You're you're not whatnot. Nobody cares. You're you're not you're you're not going to be remembered you're you're not going to be remembered you're you're not going to be remembered for any of that. Nobody is paying as for any of that. Nobody is paying as for any of that. Nobody is paying as much attention as you think. And on the much attention as you think. And on the much attention as you think. And on the flip side of that, I think a lot of flip side of that, I think a lot of flip side of that, I think a lot of people have like a a grandfather of of people have like a a grandfather of of people have like a a grandfather of of of lore who did something incredible, of lore who did something incredible, of lore who did something incredible, was helpful for to to his or your was helpful for to to his or your was helpful for to to his or your grandmother's community, did something grandmother's community, did something grandmother's community, did something amazing, was funny or what not, and is amazing, was funny or what not, and is amazing, was funny or what not, and is remembered forever. And so like if all remembered forever. And so like if all remembered forever. And so like if all you're doing in life is making money and you're doing in life is making money and you're doing in life is making money and trying to show off how big your house trying to show off how big your house trying to show off how big your house your house is, nobody's going to your house is, nobody's going to your house is, nobody's going to remember you for that. If you actually remember you for that. If you actually remember you for that. If you actually do something positive in the world, do something positive in the world, do something positive in the world, people can remember you will remember people can remember you will remember people can remember you will remember you for that for a long time. you for that for a long time. you for that for a long time. >> So is this the thing about resumeé >> So is this the thing about resumeé >> So is this the thing about resumeé virtues versus eulogy virtues that David virtues versus eulogy virtues that David virtues versus eulogy virtues that David Brooks talks a lot about, Brooks talks a lot about, Brooks talks a lot about, >> which is a was such a brilliant way to >> which is a was such a brilliant way to >> which is a was such a brilliant way to phrase that. Ré virtue is your GPA, the phrase that. Ré virtue is your GPA, the phrase that. Ré virtue is your GPA, the square footage of your house, uh how square footage of your house, uh how square footage of your house, uh how much money you make. Eulogy virtue is uh much money you make. Eulogy virtue is uh much money you make. Eulogy virtue is uh how kind you are, how many friends you how kind you are, how many friends you how kind you are, how many friends you have, how helpful you were to your have, how helpful you were to your have, how helpful you were to your community. Warren Buffett framed this in community. Warren Buffett framed this in community. Warren Buffett framed this in a slightly different way. Similar topic a slightly different way. Similar topic a slightly different way. Similar topic though. He said, "Write what you want though. He said, "Write what you want though. He said, "Write what you want your orbituary to say." And so it's your orbituary to say." And so it's your orbituary to say." And so it's going to be different for everybody, but going to be different for everybody, but going to be different for everybody, but what do I want my obituary to say? I what do I want my obituary to say? I what do I want my obituary to say? I would want it to say something like would want it to say something like would want it to say something like Morgan was a good father. Morgan was a Morgan was a good father. Morgan was a Morgan was a good father. Morgan was a good husband. Morgan helped his good husband. Morgan helped his good husband. Morgan helped his community. He listened to his friends. community. He listened to his friends. community. He listened to his friends. Those kind of things is what I would Those kind of things is what I would Those kind of things is what I would want it to say. And you instantly want it to say. And you instantly want it to say. And you instantly realize in that exercise that you would realize in that exercise that you would realize in that exercise that you would never put your salary, your net worth, never put your salary, your net worth, never put your salary, your net worth, your how much your stock portfolio your how much your stock portfolio your how much your stock portfolio outperformed the market. You nobody like outperformed the market. You nobody like outperformed the market. You nobody like it's intuitive that those things don't it's intuitive that those things don't it's intuitive that those things don't matter at all when you're looking back matter at all when you're looking back matter at all when you're looking back at your life. Nobody would think of at your life. Nobody would think of at your life. Nobody would think of those things. And so it it it just gives those things. And so it it it just gives those things. And so it it it just gives you a a different set of goals to chase. you a a different set of goals to chase. you a a different set of goals to chase. And as I said earlier, a lot of the And as I said earlier, a lot of the And as I said earlier, a lot of the reason we chase financial goals is just reason we chase financial goals is just reason we chase financial goals is just because they're so easy to count. And so because they're so easy to count. And so because they're so easy to count. And so if I said, um, I want to be a 10% better if I said, um, I want to be a 10% better if I said, um, I want to be a 10% better dad. Great goal. I would love to be a dad. Great goal. I would love to be a dad. Great goal. I would love to be a 10% better dad. There's no way to track 10% better dad. There's no way to track 10% better dad. There's no way to track that. There's absolutely no way to know that. There's absolutely no way to know that. There's absolutely no way to know whether I'm on track. And whether I'm a whether I'm on track. And whether I'm a whether I'm on track. And whether I'm a I'm a phenomenal or a terrible father I'm a phenomenal or a terrible father I'm a phenomenal or a terrible father today, nobody know. It's impossible to today, nobody know. It's impossible to today, nobody know. It's impossible to measure. But if I said, I want to measure. But if I said, I want to measure. But if I said, I want to increase my salary by 10% next year. increase my salary by 10% next year. increase my salary by 10% next year. Very easy thing to track. And so because Very easy thing to track. And so because Very easy thing to track. And so because of that, we're more attached to of that, we're more attached to of that, we're more attached to financial goals than we should be as a financial goals than we should be as a financial goals than we should be as a solution to so many of our problems. solution to so many of our problems. solution to so many of our problems. >> I may have been hallucinating what I'm >> I may have been hallucinating what I'm >> I may have been hallucinating what I'm about to say, but I feel in preparing about to say, but I feel in preparing about to say, but I feel in preparing for this interview that I read something for this interview that I read something for this interview that I read something in in in in your writings somewhere that we when in your writings somewhere that we when in your writings somewhere that we when we we purchase something like we get a we we purchase something like we get a we we purchase something like we get a new car or we get a new house or a new new car or we get a new house or a new new car or we get a new house or a new sweater or whatever it is that we think sweater or whatever it is that we think sweater or whatever it is that we think is going to bring us glory socially. Um, is going to bring us glory socially. Um, is going to bring us glory socially. Um, to the extent that anybody notices, to the extent that anybody notices, to the extent that anybody notices, they are not conferring the glory upon they are not conferring the glory upon they are not conferring the glory upon you, they are just admiring the thing you, they are just admiring the thing you, they are just admiring the thing and mostly imagining what their lives and mostly imagining what their lives and mostly imagining what their lives would be like if they had that thing. would be like if they had that thing. would be like if they had that thing. >> Right? That came from my first book, The >> Right? That came from my first book, The >> Right? That came from my first book, The Psychology of Money. And I noticed that Psychology of Money. And I noticed that Psychology of Money. And I noticed that when I was in college, I was a I was a when I was in college, I was a I was a when I was in college, I was a I was a valet at a five-star hotel in Los valet at a five-star hotel in Los valet at a five-star hotel in Los Angeles. And it's it's the coolest job Angeles. And it's it's the coolest job Angeles. And it's it's the coolest job any 19-year-old could have cuz I was I any 19-year-old could have cuz I was I any 19-year-old could have cuz I was I was parking Rolls-Royces and Aston was parking Rolls-Royces and Aston was parking Rolls-Royces and Aston Martins and Ferraris. This is the most Martins and Ferraris. This is the most Martins and Ferraris. This is the most amazing job. And and I realized one day amazing job. And and I realized one day amazing job. And and I realized one day that if somebody drove into the hotel in that if somebody drove into the hotel in that if somebody drove into the hotel in a Ferrari, I would stop and and and a Ferrari, I would stop and and and a Ferrari, I would stop and and and gawk, but I never stopped and looked at gawk, but I never stopped and looked at gawk, but I never stopped and looked at the driver. I couldn't care less about the driver. I couldn't care less about the driver. I couldn't care less about the driver. What I would do is I would the driver. What I would do is I would the driver. What I would do is I would imagine myself as the driver. And I told imagine myself as the driver. And I told imagine myself as the driver. And I told myself if I was in that car, everybody myself if I was in that car, everybody myself if I was in that car, everybody would stop and look at me. And it was it would stop and look at me. And it was it would stop and look at me. And it was it was one day after doing this for years was one day after doing this for years was one day after doing this for years and I was like, don't you see the irony? and I was like, don't you see the irony? and I was like, don't you see the irony? Like I don't care about the driver, but Like I don't care about the driver, but Like I don't care about the driver, but I want to be the driver because I think I want to be the driver because I think I want to be the driver because I think people will then care about me. And it people will then care about me. And it people will then care about me. And it was like what? No, nobody's thinking was like what? No, nobody's thinking was like what? No, nobody's thinking about you as much as you are. And I about you as much as you are. And I about you as much as you are. And I think that's true. If you have an think that's true. If you have an think that's true. If you have an incredible house, an incredible sweater, incredible house, an incredible sweater, incredible house, an incredible sweater, as you point out, incredible shoes, as you point out, incredible shoes, as you point out, incredible shoes, whatever it might be, that to the extent whatever it might be, that to the extent whatever it might be, that to the extent that people are looking at them, by and that people are looking at them, by and that people are looking at them, by and large, what they're doing is they're large, what they're doing is they're large, what they're doing is they're imagining themselves having that item. imagining themselves having that item. imagining themselves having that item. They don't really care about you. They They don't really care about you. They They don't really care about you. They they bypass you and they go straight to they bypass you and they go straight to they bypass you and they go straight to themselves. I think that's it's a very themselves. I think that's it's a very themselves. I think that's it's a very common thing. And it gets back to this common thing. And it gets back to this common thing. And it gets back to this idea that nobody's thinking about you as idea that nobody's thinking about you as idea that nobody's thinking about you as as much as you are. If if we're about to as much as you are. If if we're about to as much as you are. If if we're about to go out to a holiday party, let's say, go out to a holiday party, let's say, go out to a holiday party, let's say, sometimes I I'll I'll ask my wife, "Hey, sometimes I I'll I'll ask my wife, "Hey, sometimes I I'll I'll ask my wife, "Hey, does does this shirt look okay? Is this does does this shirt look okay? Is this does does this shirt look okay? Is this She always has the same response." She always has the same response." She always has the same response." Morgan, nobody's looking at you. Nobody Morgan, nobody's looking at you. Nobody Morgan, nobody's looking at you. Nobody cares. Nobody's paying that much cares. Nobody's paying that much cares. Nobody's paying that much attention. Just wear the shirt and go. attention. Just wear the shirt and go. attention. Just wear the shirt and go. Nobody's going to pay any attention to Nobody's going to pay any attention to Nobody's going to pay any attention to it. I think there's a lot of truth to it. I think there's a lot of truth to it. I think there's a lot of truth to that. Uh what does the research say that. Uh what does the research say that. Uh what does the research say about whether having more money will about whether having more money will about whether having more money will make us happier? For many decades, it make us happier? For many decades, it make us happier? For many decades, it was a it was a contentious topic because was a it was a contentious topic because was a it was a contentious topic because there would be one study that shows there would be one study that shows there would be one study that shows pretty high correlation. Uh make more pretty high correlation. Uh make more pretty high correlation. Uh make more money and you're going to be happier. money and you're going to be happier. money and you're going to be happier. There are the other famous studies that There are the other famous studies that There are the other famous studies that show, oh, after $70,000 per year, it show, oh, after $70,000 per year, it show, oh, after $70,000 per year, it really tapers off. So if you're if really tapers off. So if you're if really tapers off. So if you're if you're dirt poor, earning more money is you're dirt poor, earning more money is you're dirt poor, earning more money is great. Tapers off after that. And great. Tapers off after that. And great. Tapers off after that. And there's a lot of contention between there's a lot of contention between there's a lot of contention between that. For every study, there was an that. For every study, there was an that. For every study, there was an equal and opposite study. And so um a equal and opposite study. And so um a equal and opposite study. And so um a lot of that in in in my view was was lot of that in in in my view was was lot of that in in in my view was was there there there's some new information there there there's some new information there there there's some new information on that that I think was was really on that that I think was was really on that that I think was was really interesting which is that just in the interesting which is that just in the interesting which is that just in the last couple years we've shown that if last couple years we've shown that if last couple years we've shown that if you are already an unhappy miserable you are already an unhappy miserable you are already an unhappy miserable grumpy person earning more money is not grumpy person earning more money is not grumpy person earning more money is not going to do very much for you. If you going to do very much for you. If you going to do very much for you. If you are already a a joyful content happy are already a a joyful content happy are already a a joyful content happy person earning more money is incredible. person earning more money is incredible. person earning more money is incredible. It's like it's a so in either way it It's like it's a so in either way it It's like it's a so in either way it just leverages who you already are. And just leverages who you already are. And just leverages who you already are. And I think you see that for a lot of of of I think you see that for a lot of of of I think you see that for a lot of of of of of rich people um that they're not of of rich people um that they're not of of rich people um that they're not they're not happy whatsoever. And I they're not happy whatsoever. And I they're not happy whatsoever. And I think a lot of it can even go u think a lot of it can even go u think a lot of it can even go u negative. And Will Smith, another great negative. And Will Smith, another great negative. And Will Smith, another great modern philosopher, brought this up. He modern philosopher, brought this up. He modern philosopher, brought this up. He said when he was uh poor and depressed, said when he was uh poor and depressed, said when he was uh poor and depressed, he could tell himself once I make more he could tell himself once I make more he could tell himself once I make more money then I'm going to be happy. And so money then I'm going to be happy. And so money then I'm going to be happy. And so he had hope. And hope hope is an amazing he had hope. And hope hope is an amazing he had hope. And hope hope is an amazing thing. But then when he was rich and he thing. But then when he was rich and he thing. But then when he was rich and he was still depressed, he had he he lost was still depressed, he had he he lost was still depressed, he had he he lost all hope. He was like, "I have more all hope. He was like, "I have more all hope. He was like, "I have more money than I could ever need and I'm money than I could ever need and I'm money than I could ever need and I'm still sad. I'm still depressed." And so still sad. I'm still depressed." And so still sad. I'm still depressed." And so he didn't even have any hope. And so I he didn't even have any hope. And so I he didn't even have any hope. And so I think a lot of not not that people have think a lot of not not that people have think a lot of not not that people have a lot of empathy for them, but a lot of a lot of empathy for them, but a lot of a lot of empathy for them, but a lot of richer people richer people richer people >> can find themselves in this moment of >> can find themselves in this moment of >> can find themselves in this moment of despair when they're like, "I worked my despair when they're like, "I worked my despair when they're like, "I worked my ass off and I have more money than I ass off and I have more money than I ass off and I have more money than I could ever spend. My grandchildren don't could ever spend. My grandchildren don't could ever spend. My grandchildren don't need to work and I'm still unhappy." and need to work and I'm still unhappy." and need to work and I'm still unhappy." and that and then I think it was uh it was that and then I think it was uh it was that and then I think it was uh it was Rick Rubin who said you only become Rick Rubin who said you only become Rick Rubin who said you only become truly depressed once you've reached your truly depressed once you've reached your truly depressed once you've reached your goals goals goals >> because that's when you you realize that >> because that's when you you realize that >> because that's when you you realize that it didn't change who you were and so I it didn't change who you were and so I it didn't change who you were and so I think there's there's quite a bit of think there's there's quite a bit of think there's there's quite a bit of that. I have a really close friend who that. I have a really close friend who that. I have a really close friend who sold a bunch of companies at a young sold a bunch of companies at a young sold a bunch of companies at a young age, made a bunch of money, but he, you age, made a bunch of money, but he, you age, made a bunch of money, but he, you know, not enough money that he had to know, not enough money that he had to know, not enough money that he had to retire that he could retire. Although he retire that he could retire. Although he retire that he could retire. Although he could have retired, but he kept working. could have retired, but he kept working. could have retired, but he kept working. He was really young. And then he built He was really young. And then he built He was really young. And then he built another company, sold that another company, sold that another company, sold that and and then had like true [ __ ] you and and then had like true [ __ ] you and and then had like true [ __ ] you money and um had to quadruple his dose money and um had to quadruple his dose money and um had to quadruple his dose of uh anti-depressants. of uh anti-depressants. of uh anti-depressants. Just went off a cliff. like there was no Just went off a cliff. like there was no Just went off a cliff. like there was no meaning or purpose to his life. All of meaning or purpose to his life. All of meaning or purpose to his life. All of the ghosts that had been chasing him the ghosts that had been chasing him the ghosts that had been chasing him caught up with him in the in the in the caught up with him in the in the in the caught up with him in the in the in the slow period after having cashed his slow period after having cashed his slow period after having cashed his checks and it was really really hard. checks and it was really really hard. checks and it was really really hard. >> You know, I I point out in the book that >> You know, I I point out in the book that >> You know, I I point out in the book that among the 10 richest men in the world, among the 10 richest men in the world, among the 10 richest men in the world, there are cumulative 15 divorces among there are cumulative 15 divorces among there are cumulative 15 divorces among them. And so I think if you actually put them. And so I think if you actually put them. And so I think if you actually put the richest people in the world on the the richest people in the world on the the richest people in the world on the therapist's couch and really got into therapist's couch and really got into therapist's couch and really got into their brains to figure them out, their brains to figure them out, their brains to figure them out, happiness is not a common denominator happiness is not a common denominator happiness is not a common denominator that you would find among them. that you would find among them. that you would find among them. >> I think there's a couple reasons for >> I think there's a couple reasons for >> I think there's a couple reasons for this. One is that a lot of very wealthy this. One is that a lot of very wealthy this. One is that a lot of very wealthy people are wealthy because their career people are wealthy because their career people are wealthy because their career has come at the expense of everything has come at the expense of everything has come at the expense of everything else, at the expense of their family else, at the expense of their family else, at the expense of their family life, at the expense of their personal life, at the expense of their personal life, at the expense of their personal health. And so the reason they're health. And so the reason they're health. And so the reason they're they're rich is because that's that's they're rich is because that's that's they're rich is because that's that's the only thing they've ever focused on. the only thing they've ever focused on. the only thing they've ever focused on. And it's it's it's very difficult to be And it's it's it's very difficult to be And it's it's it's very difficult to be truly happy and content in life if all truly happy and content in life if all truly happy and content in life if all you have to show for it is money. So I you have to show for it is money. So I you have to show for it is money. So I think that's that's one of the reasons. think that's that's one of the reasons. think that's that's one of the reasons. The other is as we were saying before The other is as we were saying before The other is as we were saying before having being being poor or just being of having being being poor or just being of having being being poor or just being of of modest means is is having that sense of modest means is is having that sense of modest means is is having that sense of hope that there's something on the of hope that there's something on the of hope that there's something on the other side that if I work really hard other side that if I work really hard other side that if I work really hard and make more money then I'm going to and make more money then I'm going to and make more money then I'm going to have a better life. That's an amazing have a better life. That's an amazing have a better life. That's an amazing thing to chase after. Uh I mean what's thing to chase after. Uh I mean what's thing to chase after. Uh I mean what's the what's the the general philosophy of the what's the the general philosophy of the what's the the general philosophy of of how a good life? how to have a good of how a good life? how to have a good of how a good life? how to have a good life. It's like something to do, life. It's like something to do, life. It's like something to do, somebody to love, and something to look somebody to love, and something to look somebody to love, and something to look forward to. Something to look forward to forward to. Something to look forward to forward to. Something to look forward to is a really key ingredient of of having is a really key ingredient of of having is a really key ingredient of of having a good life. And once you can't look a good life. And once you can't look a good life. And once you can't look forward to the day when more money is forward to the day when more money is forward to the day when more money is going to make you happier because you going to make you happier because you going to make you happier because you already have as much money as you ever already have as much money as you ever already have as much money as you ever want, that can be actually a pretty want, that can be actually a pretty want, that can be actually a pretty depressing thing. And I I I feel like we depressing thing. And I I I feel like we depressing thing. And I I I feel like we don't talk about that at all because don't talk about that at all because don't talk about that at all because people don't have a lot of empathy for people don't have a lot of empathy for people don't have a lot of empathy for rich people. It's like, oh, who kind of rich people. It's like, oh, who kind of rich people. It's like, oh, who kind of thing. thing. thing. >> You see it, you spend time with these >> You see it, you spend time with these >> You see it, you spend time with these people and it's like, oh, it's it's a people and it's like, oh, it's it's a people and it's like, oh, it's it's a real thing. real thing. real thing. >> Yeah. We keep coming back to the super >> Yeah. We keep coming back to the super >> Yeah. We keep coming back to the super rich not because we think it's rich not because we think it's rich not because we think it's relatable, you and I, but because it's a relatable, you and I, but because it's a relatable, you and I, but because it's a cautionary tale. It's a series of cautionary tale. It's a series of cautionary tale. It's a series of cautionary tales. An extreme version of cautionary tales. An extreme version of cautionary tales. An extreme version of what we all deal with that helps us what we all deal with that helps us what we all deal with that helps us under put our our quotidian worries into under put our our quotidian worries into under put our our quotidian worries into perspective. Um, let let's let's keep perspective. Um, let let's let's keep perspective. Um, let let's let's keep going with some some more sort of going with some some more sort of going with some some more sort of downto-earth tactical advice uh that you downto-earth tactical advice uh that you downto-earth tactical advice uh that you have for the rest of us, the the the the have for the rest of us, the the the the have for the rest of us, the the the the vast majority of humans who are not vast majority of humans who are not vast majority of humans who are not super rich. Uh, one of your pieces of super rich. Uh, one of your pieces of super rich. Uh, one of your pieces of advice is to aim for utility versus advice is to aim for utility versus advice is to aim for utility versus status. What does that mean? The example status. What does that mean? The example status. What does that mean? The example I use is uh you have to imagine yourself I use is uh you have to imagine yourself I use is uh you have to imagine yourself being on a deserted island with maybe being on a deserted island with maybe being on a deserted island with maybe just you and your family and maybe some just you and your family and maybe some just you and your family and maybe some of your close friends, you know, like of your close friends, you know, like of your close friends, you know, like your core tribe of people. And so in your core tribe of people. And so in your core tribe of people. And so in that world, nobody can see, no outsiders that world, nobody can see, no outsiders that world, nobody can see, no outsiders at least can see how you're living. at least can see how you're living. at least can see how you're living. Nobody can see your house, nobody can Nobody can see your house, nobody can Nobody can see your house, nobody can see your car, nobody can see your see your car, nobody can see your see your car, nobody can see your clothes. You are blocked off from the clothes. You are blocked off from the clothes. You are blocked off from the rest of the world. There's no social rest of the world. There's no social rest of the world. There's no social media. How would you choose to live in media. How would you choose to live in media. How would you choose to live in that world? And and and let's also say that world? And and and let's also say that world? And and and let's also say since this is all makeelieve, you have since this is all makeelieve, you have since this is all makeelieve, you have unlimited money. How would you choose to unlimited money. How would you choose to unlimited money. How would you choose to live in that world? If nobody could see live in that world? If nobody could see live in that world? If nobody could see it, I think most people would gravitate it, I think most people would gravitate it, I think most people would gravitate towards utility over status. You would towards utility over status. You would towards utility over status. You would not want an enormous mansion because not want an enormous mansion because not want an enormous mansion because it's a pain in the ass to take care of. it's a pain in the ass to take care of. it's a pain in the ass to take care of. You would want a house with a nice view You would want a house with a nice view You would want a house with a nice view because that gives you utility. You because that gives you utility. You because that gives you utility. You probably would not want a Lamborghini. probably would not want a Lamborghini. probably would not want a Lamborghini. You probably want a pickup truck that You probably want a pickup truck that You probably want a pickup truck that has utility. Somebody explains this to has utility. Somebody explains this to has utility. Somebody explains this to me in a way that I thought was great. me in a way that I thought was great. me in a way that I thought was great. They said a high-end Toyota is a nicer They said a high-end Toyota is a nicer They said a high-end Toyota is a nicer car than an entry-level BMW cuz all the car than an entry-level BMW cuz all the car than an entry-level BMW cuz all the entry-le BMW is is status. It's just an entry-le BMW is is status. It's just an entry-le BMW is is status. It's just an emblem to show other people that you emblem to show other people that you emblem to show other people that you have some sort of taste and level of have some sort of taste and level of have some sort of taste and level of success. The high-end Toyota is filled success. The high-end Toyota is filled success. The high-end Toyota is filled with utility for you. It's comfortable with utility for you. It's comfortable with utility for you. It's comfortable seats and a good sound system and a and seats and a good sound system and a and seats and a good sound system and a and a and a moon roof. It's like it's like a and a moon roof. It's like it's like a and a moon roof. It's like it's like things that make you good, even if things that make you good, even if things that make you good, even if everybody on the outside just looks at everybody on the outside just looks at everybody on the outside just looks at your little Toyota emblem. I think your little Toyota emblem. I think your little Toyota emblem. I think that's a good way to think about it. that's a good way to think about it. that's a good way to think about it. like are you doing this thing because it like are you doing this thing because it like are you doing this thing because it makes you happy and gives you a better makes you happy and gives you a better makes you happy and gives you a better life and and helps your family or are life and and helps your family or are life and and helps your family or are you doing it because you think there's a you doing it because you think there's a you doing it because you think there's a level of status that is going to be level of status that is going to be level of status that is going to be reflected upon other people and so I reflected upon other people and so I reflected upon other people and so I think that's that that's the way to think that's that that's the way to think that's that that's the way to think about it and that's always been think about it and that's always been think about it and that's always been the case. Social media just dumped the case. Social media just dumped the case. Social media just dumped kerosene on this fire because now so kerosene on this fire because now so kerosene on this fire because now so much of life is performative, which is much of life is performative, which is much of life is performative, which is the right word. Like people don't post the right word. Like people don't post the right word. Like people don't post on social media, they perform on social on social media, they perform on social on social media, they perform on social media, perform for other people. And no media, perform for other people. And no media, perform for other people. And no matter how well you're doing in life, matter how well you're doing in life, matter how well you're doing in life, there is always there's an endless there is always there's an endless there is always there's an endless stream on your phone of people who at stream on your phone of people who at stream on your phone of people who at least appear to be doing better and are least appear to be doing better and are least appear to be doing better and are happier and richer and prettier than you happier and richer and prettier than you happier and richer and prettier than you are. And so that's it's this topic that are. And so that's it's this topic that are. And so that's it's this topic that we're talking about would have been we're talking about would have been we're talking about would have been relevant and and important 30 years ago. relevant and and important 30 years ago. relevant and and important 30 years ago. I think it's an order of magnitude I think it's an order of magnitude I think it's an order of magnitude bigger now, especially for young people. bigger now, especially for young people. bigger now, especially for young people. >> It's incredible to me how reliable a >> It's incredible to me how reliable a >> It's incredible to me how reliable a source of suffering Instagram is for me. source of suffering Instagram is for me. source of suffering Instagram is for me. Even with all of the meditation and Even with all of the meditation and Even with all of the meditation and other work I've done, it's incredible. other work I've done, it's incredible. other work I've done, it's incredible. One of the I think this is related. Um One of the I think this is related. Um One of the I think this is related. Um one of one of another piece of advice is one of one of another piece of advice is one of one of another piece of advice is that a key defense against the unwinable that a key defense against the unwinable that a key defense against the unwinable status game which is the game that has status game which is the game that has status game which is the game that has been drenched in kerosene by social been drenched in kerosene by social been drenched in kerosene by social media but has been with us as a species media but has been with us as a species media but has been with us as a species since the savannah. A key defense in since the savannah. A key defense in since the savannah. A key defense in your argument is self-examination. your argument is self-examination. your argument is self-examination. Do I have that right? And if so, what do Do I have that right? And if so, what do Do I have that right? And if so, what do you mean by that specifically? I think I you mean by that specifically? I think I you mean by that specifically? I think I think a lot of what envy is is kind of think a lot of what envy is is kind of think a lot of what envy is is kind of outsourcing your goals to other people. outsourcing your goals to other people. outsourcing your goals to other people. Like I want what what you have. And Like I want what what you have. And Like I want what what you have. And again, a lot of life is a competition again, a lot of life is a competition again, a lot of life is a competition that's unavoidable. Competition for for that's unavoidable. Competition for for that's unavoidable. Competition for for jobs and for mates and whatnot. A lot of jobs and for mates and whatnot. A lot of jobs and for mates and whatnot. A lot of it is is unavoidable. But if if my level it is is unavoidable. But if if my level it is is unavoidable. But if if my level of if my definition of success is just of if my definition of success is just of if my definition of success is just one more of whatever you have, that's one more of whatever you have, that's one more of whatever you have, that's that's an unwinable game. And so I think that's an unwinable game. And so I think that's an unwinable game. And so I think for a lot of this, you have to become for a lot of this, you have to become for a lot of this, you have to become selfish in a good way. You have to keep selfish in a good way. You have to keep selfish in a good way. You have to keep your goals and your aspirations kind of your goals and your aspirations kind of your goals and your aspirations kind of confined to the roof of your own house confined to the roof of your own house confined to the roof of your own house of your own house, just you and your of your own house, just you and your of your own house, just you and your family. I think that's this is one of family. I think that's this is one of family. I think that's this is one of the things I'll always put the asterisk the things I'll always put the asterisk the things I'll always put the asterisk of easier said than done, but I try to of easier said than done, but I try to of easier said than done, but I try to think about that quite a bit for my own think about that quite a bit for my own think about that quite a bit for my own goals of like keep I think there's there goals of like keep I think there's there goals of like keep I think there's there there's a there's a humble bubble that there's a there's a humble bubble that there's a there's a humble bubble that you have to live in with your own your you have to live in with your own your you have to live in with your own your own goals and and whatnot. So, I think own goals and and whatnot. So, I think own goals and and whatnot. So, I think about like for investing returns, so about like for investing returns, so about like for investing returns, so much of the investing industry is based much of the investing industry is based much of the investing industry is based off of outperforming peers. It's not how off of outperforming peers. It's not how off of outperforming peers. It's not how well have you done. It's not even do you well have you done. It's not even do you well have you done. It's not even do you have enough money for retirement or to have enough money for retirement or to have enough money for retirement or to send your kids to college. That's that's send your kids to college. That's that's send your kids to college. That's that's that's a that's a side point in most of that's a that's a side point in most of that's a that's a side point in most of the investing industry. Almost the investing industry. Almost the investing industry. Almost everything is did you outperform your everything is did you outperform your everything is did you outperform your peers. It's it's just turned into a peers. It's it's just turned into a peers. It's it's just turned into a game. It's a it's like a sporting event game. It's a it's like a sporting event game. It's a it's like a sporting event of this. And if life is a competition, of this. And if life is a competition, of this. And if life is a competition, that can kind of make sense. But you can that can kind of make sense. But you can that can kind of make sense. But you can if you step back, you see the absurdity if you step back, you see the absurdity if you step back, you see the absurdity of it. The question is not are you of it. The question is not are you of it. The question is not are you prepared for retirement. It's did we prepared for retirement. It's did we prepared for retirement. It's did we outperform our two our three, five, and outperform our two our three, five, and outperform our two our three, five, and 10 year benchmarks. Like it's absurd. 10 year benchmarks. Like it's absurd. 10 year benchmarks. Like it's absurd. And so I think if you keep your goals And so I think if you keep your goals And so I think if you keep your goals confined to the roof of your house, a confined to the roof of your house, a confined to the roof of your house, a lot of these things become much more lot of these things become much more lot of these things become much more manageable. You can keep your manageable. You can keep your manageable. You can keep your expectations in check in a much more expectations in check in a much more expectations in check in a much more manageable way and say, I I I don't care manageable way and say, I I I don't care manageable way and say, I I I don't care what my kids test scores are relative to what my kids test scores are relative to what my kids test scores are relative to other people. I care that they are happy other people. I care that they are happy other people. I care that they are happy and content and proud of themselves and and content and proud of themselves and and content and proud of themselves and that we're proud of them. And you know, that we're proud of them. And you know, that we're proud of them. And you know, balancing that with life being a balancing that with life being a balancing that with life being a competition is is always is is competition is is always is is competition is is always is is difficult. If you want your kids to get difficult. If you want your kids to get difficult. If you want your kids to get into a good college or get a good job into a good college or get a good job into a good college or get a good job after that, a lot of it is you do have after that, a lot of it is you do have after that, a lot of it is you do have to play that game of test scores or to play that game of test scores or to play that game of test scores or whatever it might of of of of what it whatever it might of of of of what it whatever it might of of of of what it might be. If your job is to have a if if might be. If your job is to have a if if might be. If your job is to have a if if your goal is to have a good life, I your goal is to have a good life, I your goal is to have a good life, I think it it takes more of a sense of think it it takes more of a sense of think it it takes more of a sense of keeping those goals internal, the keeping those goals internal, the keeping those goals internal, the internal benchmark versus the external internal benchmark versus the external internal benchmark versus the external benchmark. Most people think their heart benchmark. Most people think their heart benchmark. Most people think their heart health is fine because their cholesterol health is fine because their cholesterol health is fine because their cholesterol looks normal, but critical markers like looks normal, but critical markers like looks normal, but critical markers like lipoprotein A rarely get tested unless lipoprotein A rarely get tested unless lipoprotein A rarely get tested unless you specifically ask for them. It's you specifically ask for them. It's you specifically ask for them. It's National Heart Month. I've personally National Heart Month. I've personally National Heart Month. I've personally been thinking more about my own heart been thinking more about my own heart been thinking more about my own heart health, especially after learning that I health, especially after learning that I health, especially after learning that I actually have somewhat high cholesterol. actually have somewhat high cholesterol. actually have somewhat high cholesterol. Part of how I know that is because I got Part of how I know that is because I got Part of how I know that is because I got some blood tests through a company some blood tests through a company some blood tests through a company called Function Health. One of the called Function Health. One of the called Function Health. One of the things I like about Function is they things I like about Function is they things I like about Function is they don't tell you what to worry about. They don't tell you what to worry about. They don't tell you what to worry about. They actually show you what is happening in actually show you what is happening in actually show you what is happening in your body. Function is designed by your body. Function is designed by your body. Function is designed by worldclass physicians and trusted by worldclass physicians and trusted by worldclass physicians and trusted by hundreds of thousands of members. You hundreds of thousands of members. You hundreds of thousands of members. You stop guessing. You stop being reactive stop guessing. You stop being reactive stop guessing. You stop being reactive and you start making decisions based on and you start making decisions based on and you start making decisions based on real insights. The blood work I did via real insights. 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It sounds like your wife is a key part of this, but what do you is a key part of this, but what do you is a key part of this, but what do you do in order to keep yourself to the best do in order to keep yourself to the best do in order to keep yourself to the best of your ability and with the caveat that of your ability and with the caveat that of your ability and with the caveat that it's easier said than done, what do you it's easier said than done, what do you it's easier said than done, what do you do to keep yourself in the do to keep yourself in the do to keep yourself in the aforementioned humble bubble? I think aforementioned humble bubble? I think aforementioned humble bubble? I think I've I've always been, and this is not I've I've always been, and this is not I've I've always been, and this is not unique, this is not rare, but I've part unique, this is not rare, but I've part unique, this is not rare, but I've part of it is I've always been the kind of of it is I've always been the kind of of it is I've always been the kind of person who has two or three really good person who has two or three really good person who has two or three really good friends and then the world kind of drops friends and then the world kind of drops friends and then the world kind of drops off after that. I don't know if that's off after that. I don't know if that's off after that. I don't know if that's that's the healthiest life, but that's that's the healthiest life, but that's that's the healthiest life, but that's that's what it's always been. I I I tend that's what it's always been. I I I tend that's what it's always been. I I I tend to think I I I don't have research to think I I I don't have research to think I I I don't have research backing those up, but I tend to think backing those up, but I tend to think backing those up, but I tend to think that people who want to have who want to that people who want to have who want to that people who want to have who want to be everybody's friend tend to be the be everybody's friend tend to be the be everybody's friend tend to be the kind of people who are trying to impress kind of people who are trying to impress kind of people who are trying to impress massive groups of people, and that's a massive groups of people, and that's a massive groups of people, and that's a very difficult game to play. So keeping very difficult game to play. So keeping very difficult game to play. So keeping your your your social circle small is your your your social circle small is your your your social circle small is important. Being choosy and picky about important. Being choosy and picky about important. Being choosy and picky about who you socialize with is very who you socialize with is very who you socialize with is very important. I grew up in the woods important. I grew up in the woods important. I grew up in the woods outside of Lake Tahoe and this is before outside of Lake Tahoe and this is before outside of Lake Tahoe and this is before tech money when it was just a poor tech money when it was just a poor tech money when it was just a poor mountain town. And then I went to mountain town. And then I went to mountain town. And then I went to college in Los Angeles uh during the college in Los Angeles uh during the college in Los Angeles uh during the housing bubble when there was literally housing bubble when there was literally housing bubble when there was literally just like a trillion dollars floating just like a trillion dollars floating just like a trillion dollars floating down the street kind of thing. And it down the street kind of thing. And it down the street kind of thing. And it was it was clear as day. It was not was it was clear as day. It was not was it was clear as day. It was not subtle that people had better lives were subtle that people had better lives were subtle that people had better lives were happier and more content in the poor happier and more content in the poor happier and more content in the poor like in the poor mountain town than they like in the poor mountain town than they like in the poor mountain town than they did in Los Angeles. I think a lot of did in Los Angeles. I think a lot of did in Los Angeles. I think a lot of that was just in the poor mountain town that was just in the poor mountain town that was just in the poor mountain town your neighbors were humble as well. And your neighbors were humble as well. And your neighbors were humble as well. And so when I was growing up, rich people so when I was growing up, rich people so when I was growing up, rich people had new pickup trucks and poor people had new pickup trucks and poor people had new pickup trucks and poor people had old pickup trucks. That was the had old pickup trucks. That was the had old pickup trucks. That was the stratification of wealth. It was it was stratification of wealth. It was it was stratification of wealth. It was it was it was not that much in Los Angeles. you it was not that much in Los Angeles. you it was not that much in Los Angeles. you know, poor people have have entry-level know, poor people have have entry-level know, poor people have have entry-level Rolls-Royces and rich people have like Rolls-Royces and rich people have like Rolls-Royces and rich people have like custommade Rolls-Royces. That was that custommade Rolls-Royces. That was that custommade Rolls-Royces. That was that was a stratification in Los Angeles. And was a stratification in Los Angeles. And was a stratification in Los Angeles. And so being careful who you socialize with, so being careful who you socialize with, so being careful who you socialize with, I think is very important. Someone asked I think is very important. Someone asked I think is very important. Someone asked me not not too recently like among rich me not not too recently like among rich me not not too recently like among rich people, again, just using them as a people, again, just using them as a people, again, just using them as a magnifying glass. What what subset of magnifying glass. What what subset of magnifying glass. What what subset of rich people tend to be the most happy rich people tend to be the most happy rich people tend to be the most happy and content with it? And one of the and content with it? And one of the and content with it? And one of the things that I that I said that I've seen things that I that I said that I've seen things that I that I said that I've seen many times are if you if you start off many times are if you if you start off many times are if you if you start off modest and then become rich, the people modest and then become rich, the people modest and then become rich, the people who kept their friends after they became who kept their friends after they became who kept their friends after they became rich, they kept the same group of rich, they kept the same group of rich, they kept the same group of friends that they had before they had friends that they had before they had friends that they had before they had money or especially kept the spouse that money or especially kept the spouse that money or especially kept the spouse that they had before they had money. Uh those they had before they had money. Uh those they had before they had money. Uh those t those people tend to do fairly well. t those people tend to do fairly well. t those people tend to do fairly well. the group of people who once they become the group of people who once they become the group of people who once they become wealthy, they discard their old their wealthy, they discard their old their wealthy, they discard their old their old social circle or discard their old social circle or discard their old social circle or discard their spouse and upgrade so to speak, those spouse and upgrade so to speak, those spouse and upgrade so to speak, those people I think have a much harder time people I think have a much harder time people I think have a much harder time with it because their expectations are with it because their expectations are with it because their expectations are rising at the same level of their rising at the same level of their rising at the same level of their income. And so if if you if your income income. And so if if you if your income income. And so if if you if your income goes up 10fold and your expectations go goes up 10fold and your expectations go goes up 10fold and your expectations go up 12fold because you enter a whole new up 12fold because you enter a whole new up 12fold because you enter a whole new social circle, that's a very difficult social circle, that's a very difficult social circle, that's a very difficult game to play. If your income doubles and game to play. If your income doubles and game to play. If your income doubles and you keep the same friends who have the you keep the same friends who have the you keep the same friends who have the same expectations and the same same expectations and the same same expectations and the same definition of a good life, that's that definition of a good life, that's that definition of a good life, that's that could be an amazing life. That could be could be an amazing life. That could be could be an amazing life. That could be awesome. Yes. awesome. Yes. awesome. Yes. >> And so I've I I've tried to do that >> And so I've I I've tried to do that >> And so I've I I've tried to do that myself that the small group of friends myself that the small group of friends myself that the small group of friends that I do have that I do have that I do have >> uh are are friends that I've had for >> uh are are friends that I've had for >> uh are are friends that I've had for many many years. And again, that's maybe many many years. And again, that's maybe many many years. And again, that's maybe that's not that unique, but the friends that's not that unique, but the friends that's not that unique, but the friends who I cherish the most and who I'm who I cherish the most and who I'm who I cherish the most and who I'm capable of having the best time with are capable of having the best time with are capable of having the best time with are friends that I've had for 20 years. And friends that I've had for 20 years. And friends that I've had for 20 years. And I and I I think I I I think there's I and I I think I I I think there's I and I I think I I I think there's there's quite a bit of that no matter there's quite a bit of that no matter there's quite a bit of that no matter how much money you make. Oh, that lands how much money you make. Oh, that lands how much money you make. Oh, that lands for me. Just to reset, we're talking for me. Just to reset, we're talking for me. Just to reset, we're talking about u how to use your money, no matter about u how to use your money, no matter about u how to use your money, no matter how much money you have, um to bolster how much money you have, um to bolster how much money you have, um to bolster your happiness instead of sapping it, to your happiness instead of sapping it, to your happiness instead of sapping it, to bolster your sense of well-being instead bolster your sense of well-being instead bolster your sense of well-being instead of um diminish it. of um diminish it. of um diminish it. Another concept you have, Morgan, is to Another concept you have, Morgan, is to Another concept you have, Morgan, is to minimize future regret. Can you unpack minimize future regret. Can you unpack minimize future regret. Can you unpack that? This this came from Daniel that? This this came from Daniel that? This this came from Daniel Conaman, the late psychologist, won the Conaman, the late psychologist, won the Conaman, the late psychologist, won the Nobel Prize in economics. I did an Nobel Prize in economics. I did an Nobel Prize in economics. I did an interview with him 10 or 15 years ago. interview with him 10 or 15 years ago. interview with him 10 or 15 years ago. He passed away last year. And um we we He passed away last year. And um we we He passed away last year. And um we we asked him specifically about investing, asked him specifically about investing, asked him specifically about investing, like what behavioral traits do you need like what behavioral traits do you need like what behavioral traits do you need to to be a good investor? And he kind of to to be a good investor? And he kind of to to be a good investor? And he kind of swatted away the investing side of it, swatted away the investing side of it, swatted away the investing side of it, but he said for money in general and for but he said for money in general and for but he said for money in general and for life in general, you need to have a life in general, you need to have a life in general, you need to have a well-c calibrated sense of your future well-c calibrated sense of your future well-c calibrated sense of your future regret. You need to understand what regret. You need to understand what regret. You need to understand what decisions today, excuse me, need to decisions today, excuse me, need to decisions today, excuse me, need to clear my throat. He said, "You need to understand what He said, "You need to understand what decisions today you're going to look decisions today you're going to look decisions today you're going to look back at 20 or 30 years from now with a back at 20 or 30 years from now with a back at 20 or 30 years from now with a sense of regret." And most people don't sense of regret." And most people don't sense of regret." And most people don't have a very good sense of regret, but have a very good sense of regret, but have a very good sense of regret, but you need to understand like I think it you need to understand like I think it you need to understand like I think it was Jerry Seinfeld, another another a was Jerry Seinfeld, another another a was Jerry Seinfeld, another another a third great modern philosopher from this third great modern philosopher from this third great modern philosopher from this from this episode who said um from this episode who said um from this episode who said um self-control is empathy with your future self-control is empathy with your future self-control is empathy with your future self. Having self-control over your self. Having self-control over your self. Having self-control over your decisions today is understanding that decisions today is understanding that decisions today is understanding that you are going to be a person 10 or 20 you are going to be a person 10 or 20 you are going to be a person 10 or 20 years from now and you need to respect years from now and you need to respect years from now and you need to respect that person and be nice to that person. that person and be nice to that person. that person and be nice to that person. And if you think about that, you will And if you think about that, you will And if you think about that, you will eat differently, you will exercise eat differently, you will exercise eat differently, you will exercise differently, you will spend your money differently, you will spend your money differently, you will spend your money differently. If you can be nice to you differently. If you can be nice to you differently. If you can be nice to you 10 years in the future, that's that's 10 years in the future, that's that's 10 years in the future, that's that's understanding your sense of future understanding your sense of future understanding your sense of future regret. It's different for everybody. regret. It's different for everybody. regret. It's different for everybody. Jeff Bezos talked about the regret Jeff Bezos talked about the regret Jeff Bezos talked about the regret minimization framework is why he started minimization framework is why he started minimization framework is why he started Amazon. And he said back in 1994, he Amazon. And he said back in 1994, he Amazon. And he said back in 1994, he said if he started Amazon and it failed, said if he started Amazon and it failed, said if he started Amazon and it failed, he would not regret that. But if he he would not regret that. But if he he would not regret that. But if he didn't start it and never tried, he didn't start it and never tried, he didn't start it and never tried, he would regret that. Looking back at his would regret that. Looking back at his would regret that. Looking back at his life when he was 90 years old, as he life when he was 90 years old, as he life when he was 90 years old, as he said, and I think what's important about said, and I think what's important about said, and I think what's important about that is um if if I poured my life that is um if if I poured my life that is um if if I poured my life savings and all of my time into a savings and all of my time into a savings and all of my time into a startup and it failed, I would regret startup and it failed, I would regret startup and it failed, I would regret it. Like I would regret. So that's so it. Like I would regret. So that's so it. Like I would regret. So that's so everybody has a different sense of everybody has a different sense of everybody has a different sense of regret. He wouldn't have, I would have. regret. He wouldn't have, I would have. regret. He wouldn't have, I would have. So, there's no universal formula on what So, there's no universal formula on what So, there's no universal formula on what you're going to regret here. I think you're going to regret here. I think you're going to regret here. I think I've gotten a little bit better as I I've gotten a little bit better as I I've gotten a little bit better as I age. And I think this is true for for age. And I think this is true for for age. And I think this is true for for most people at understanding what I'm most people at understanding what I'm most people at understanding what I'm going to regret in the future because going to regret in the future because going to regret in the future because what does making a bad decision feel what does making a bad decision feel what does making a bad decision feel like in the moment? It usually feels like in the moment? It usually feels like in the moment? It usually feels amazing. It usually feels like an amazing. It usually feels like an amazing. It usually feels like an incredible thing because what most of incredible thing because what most of incredible thing because what most of what you're going to regret are are what you're going to regret are are what you're going to regret are are times when you kind of frontloaded times when you kind of frontloaded times when you kind of frontloaded future pleasure into today. Like you future pleasure into today. Like you future pleasure into today. Like you robbed it from the future. So eating uh robbed it from the future. So eating uh robbed it from the future. So eating uh cake and ice cream like tastes amaz cake and ice cream like tastes amaz cake and ice cream like tastes amaz feels amazing, but you're you're robbing feels amazing, but you're you're robbing feels amazing, but you're you're robbing yourself of how you're going to feel an yourself of how you're going to feel an yourself of how you're going to feel an hour later or the next day or 30 years hour later or the next day or 30 years hour later or the next day or 30 years from now when you're when when you're from now when you're when when you're from now when you're when when you're when you're when you're overbe when when you're when you're overbe when when you're when you're overbe when you're when when you're overweight. And you're when when you're overweight. And you're when when you're overweight. And so I think I think over time taking a so I think I think over time taking a so I think I think over time taking a step back and asking of the decisions step back and asking of the decisions step back and asking of the decisions that I do regret, how did it feel at the that I do regret, how did it feel at the that I do regret, how did it feel at the time? What can I learn from that? And time? What can I learn from that? And time? What can I learn from that? And have I gotten any better over time at have I gotten any better over time at have I gotten any better over time at understanding it? taking action today understanding it? taking action today understanding it? taking action today and avoiding actions today that I'm not and avoiding actions today that I'm not and avoiding actions today that I'm not that I know I'm going to regret in the that I know I'm going to regret in the that I know I'm going to regret in the future. future. future. >> Another concept um when it comes to >> Another concept um when it comes to >> Another concept um when it comes to spending money in a way that that will spending money in a way that that will spending money in a way that that will redown to our well-being is um the the redown to our well-being is um the the redown to our well-being is um the the creation of and this is the flip side of creation of and this is the flip side of creation of and this is the flip side of minimizing regret. It's the creation of minimizing regret. It's the creation of minimizing regret. It's the creation of positive memories. positive memories. positive memories. >> I think a lot of that I forget who said >> I think a lot of that I forget who said >> I think a lot of that I forget who said that the purpose of life is to do things that the purpose of life is to do things that the purpose of life is to do things for which you are going to have for which you are going to have for which you are going to have nostalgia for in the future. nostalgia for in the future. nostalgia for in the future. And I I think that's quite a bit of it. And I I think that's quite a bit of it. And I I think that's quite a bit of it. There's the the kind of stale stereotyp There's the the kind of stale stereotyp There's the the kind of stale stereotyp stereotypical advice for money of don't stereotypical advice for money of don't stereotypical advice for money of don't spend your money on on things, spend it spend your money on on things, spend it spend your money on on things, spend it on memories. And I think people can go on memories. And I think people can go on memories. And I think people can go and and and spend it on experiences, I and and and spend it on experiences, I and and and spend it on experiences, I should say. I think that can go astray should say. I think that can go astray should say. I think that can go astray because a lot of the time that people because a lot of the time that people because a lot of the time that people spend money on experiences, they're spend money on experiences, they're spend money on experiences, they're still doing it for performative reasons. still doing it for performative reasons. still doing it for performative reasons. They're still spending their money on They're still spending their money on They're still spending their money on this vacation, this vacation, this vacation, >> not because they really enjoyed that >> not because they really enjoyed that >> not because they really enjoyed that location or because they had a good time location or because they had a good time location or because they had a good time there, but because they know it's going there, but because they know it's going there, but because they know it's going to make a good Instagram picture. They to make a good Instagram picture. They to make a good Instagram picture. They know there's there's some sort of social know there's there's some sort of social know there's there's some sort of social clout in going to Bali and telling your clout in going to Bali and telling your clout in going to Bali and telling your friends that you did it is is is why friends that you did it is is is why friends that you did it is is is why you're doing it. So the idea of of you're doing it. So the idea of of you're doing it. So the idea of of forming memories, you know, for for most forming memories, you know, for for most forming memories, you know, for for most people, not everybody, but I think it people, not everybody, but I think it people, not everybody, but I think it it's it's not uncommon that if you are it's it's not uncommon that if you are it's it's not uncommon that if you are an adult looking back at your life and I an adult looking back at your life and I an adult looking back at your life and I said, when did you form the best said, when did you form the best said, when did you form the best memories for like what era of your life memories for like what era of your life memories for like what era of your life did you have the the best memories? A did you have the the best memories? A did you have the the best memories? A lot of people will tell you high school lot of people will tell you high school lot of people will tell you high school that that was an era when it was just that that was an era when it was just that that was an era when it was just carefree and you had a great group of carefree and you had a great group of carefree and you had a great group of friends and you were going to parties friends and you were going to parties friends and you were going to parties and you didn't have the responsibilities and you didn't have the responsibilities and you didn't have the responsibilities that you had later in life. That was that you had later in life. That was that you had later in life. That was those were the golden years. That was those were the golden years. That was those were the golden years. That was great. And a lot of the common great. And a lot of the common great. And a lot of the common denominator of people in high school is denominator of people in high school is denominator of people in high school is they don't have any money. They're they don't have any money. They're they don't have any money. They're broke. And so the idea of like forming broke. And so the idea of like forming broke. And so the idea of like forming forming good memories is not a financial forming good memories is not a financial forming good memories is not a financial thing whatsoever. You know, for for a thing whatsoever. You know, for for a thing whatsoever. You know, for for a lot of people too, it's when their lot of people too, it's when their lot of people too, it's when their children were very young, when they had children were very young, when they had children were very young, when they had when they had toddlers and young kids, when they had toddlers and young kids, when they had toddlers and young kids, those are those can be amazing years of those are those can be amazing years of those are those can be amazing years of core memories. And that too tends to be core memories. And that too tends to be core memories. And that too tends to be a time in your life when you don't have a time in your life when you don't have a time in your life when you don't have a lot of money. You're not sleeping very a lot of money. You're not sleeping very a lot of money. You're not sleeping very much. You're stressed out of your mind. much. You're stressed out of your mind. much. You're stressed out of your mind. But those form core memories, too. So But those form core memories, too. So But those form core memories, too. So the the the knee-jerk reaction of what the the the knee-jerk reaction of what the the the knee-jerk reaction of what we think is going to form a great we think is going to form a great we think is going to form a great memory, expensive vacation like let's memory, expensive vacation like let's memory, expensive vacation like let's say tends tends not necessarily to be say tends tends not necessarily to be say tends tends not necessarily to be the case. I actually think in a lot of the case. I actually think in a lot of the case. I actually think in a lot of these instances there's a negative these instances there's a negative these instances there's a negative correlation between how much money correlation between how much money correlation between how much money you're spending and how much time you you're spending and how much time you you're spending and how much time you have, how much joy and good memory have, how much joy and good memory have, how much joy and good memory you're going to take away from it. you're going to take away from it. you're going to take away from it. >> I'm just taking down my list here. >> I'm just taking down my list here. >> I'm just taking down my list here. Another piece of advice uh that that you Another piece of advice uh that that you Another piece of advice uh that that you uh t that you give in the book and this uh t that you give in the book and this uh t that you give in the book and this kind of hearkens back to something you kind of hearkens back to something you kind of hearkens back to something you said earlier in this conversation is um said earlier in this conversation is um said earlier in this conversation is um it's important to to not link or hitch it's important to to not link or hitch it's important to to not link or hitch um money to our identity. Um even even um money to our identity. Um even even um money to our identity. Um even even the identity as a saver. you you the identity as a saver. you you the identity as a saver. you you described yourself as as uh as a saver, described yourself as as uh as a saver, described yourself as as uh as a saver, but there's a way in which if you if you but there's a way in which if you if you but there's a way in which if you if you have a fixed identity about your have a fixed identity about your have a fixed identity about your attitudes toward money, it can limit attitudes toward money, it can limit attitudes toward money, it can limit your range of options. your range of options. your range of options. >> Yeah. I think whenever in life you use >> Yeah. I think whenever in life you use >> Yeah. I think whenever in life you use the phrase I am a blank and it doesn't the phrase I am a blank and it doesn't the phrase I am a blank and it doesn't matter what the blank is, Democrat, matter what the blank is, Democrat, matter what the blank is, Democrat, Republican, saver, I am a blank. You've Republican, saver, I am a blank. You've Republican, saver, I am a blank. You've attached yourself to a tribal identity attached yourself to a tribal identity attached yourself to a tribal identity and it's very difficult to break away and it's very difficult to break away and it's very difficult to break away from that and to think really from that and to think really from that and to think really rationally. you've you you've you've rationally. you've you you've you've rationally. you've you you've you've you've kind of outsourced your critical you've kind of outsourced your critical you've kind of outsourced your critical thinking to other people in the tribe. thinking to other people in the tribe. thinking to other people in the tribe. So, if you talk to a lot of financial So, if you talk to a lot of financial So, if you talk to a lot of financial adviserss, they'll tell you one of the adviserss, they'll tell you one of the adviserss, they'll tell you one of the most critical problems and common most critical problems and common most critical problems and common problems that they face are people who problems that they face are people who problems that they face are people who have saved enough money for retirement. have saved enough money for retirement. have saved enough money for retirement. They've saved a million bucks for They've saved a million bucks for They've saved a million bucks for retirement and they're 65 years old. retirement and they're 65 years old. retirement and they're 65 years old. Congratulations, you won. And they Congratulations, you won. And they Congratulations, you won. And they cannot get that client to spend money in cannot get that client to spend money in cannot get that client to spend money in even the most responsible way because in even the most responsible way because in even the most responsible way because in that person's mind, I am a saver. It's that person's mind, I am a saver. It's that person's mind, I am a saver. It's become part of their identity. And for become part of their identity. And for become part of their identity. And for the pre previous 30 years, they saved the pre previous 30 years, they saved the pre previous 30 years, they saved money every month, every paycheck. And money every month, every paycheck. And money every month, every paycheck. And they saw their net worth go up every they saw their net worth go up every they saw their net worth go up every year. And the idea of seizing that and year. And the idea of seizing that and year. And the idea of seizing that and going in the other direction and start going in the other direction and start going in the other direction and start spending that balance down is so spending that balance down is so spending that balance down is so antithetical to their identity, to their antithetical to their identity, to their antithetical to their identity, to their personality that they've they've personality that they've they've personality that they've they've sacrificed so much to save this money sacrificed so much to save this money sacrificed so much to save this money and they can't spend it now. And so and they can't spend it now. And so and they can't spend it now. And so anytime in your financial life, you say, anytime in your financial life, you say, anytime in your financial life, you say, "I am a blank." And and everyone says "I am a blank." And and everyone says "I am a blank." And and everyone says it, you pointed out, "I am a saver." And it, you pointed out, "I am a saver." And it, you pointed out, "I am a saver." And will it be hard for me once my peak will it be hard for me once my peak will it be hard for me once my peak earning years are over to turn that dial earning years are over to turn that dial earning years are over to turn that dial around and start spending it down? Yeah. around and start spending it down? Yeah. around and start spending it down? Yeah. Yeah. And so like let's this gets back Yeah. And so like let's this gets back Yeah. And so like let's this gets back to like let's not pretend like I've to like let's not pretend like I've to like let's not pretend like I've mastered this and I'm trying to impart mastered this and I'm trying to impart mastered this and I'm trying to impart the wisdom on you. Everybody suffers the wisdom on you. Everybody suffers the wisdom on you. Everybody suffers from this in to to some extent. And it's from this in to to some extent. And it's from this in to to some extent. And it's it's the difference between using money it's the difference between using money it's the difference between using money as a tool to live a better life versus as a tool to live a better life versus as a tool to live a better life versus something that controls you. And this is something that controls you. And this is something that controls you. And this is actually the part of the book where I actually the part of the book where I actually the part of the book where I profiled the Vanderbilts who were at in profiled the Vanderbilts who were at in profiled the Vanderbilts who were at in their day the by far the richest family their day the by far the richest family their day the by far the richest family in the world. And I think virtually in the world. And I think virtually in the world. And I think virtually every single one of them was controlled every single one of them was controlled every single one of them was controlled by their money. It's like the money was by their money. It's like the money was by their money. It's like the money was just the puppet master controlling their just the puppet master controlling their just the puppet master controlling their life. And it was this weird thing where life. And it was this weird thing where life. And it was this weird thing where they had more money than any than anyone they had more money than any than anyone they had more money than any than anyone else in the world, but nobody in the else in the world, but nobody in the else in the world, but nobody in the world was as beholden to their money and world was as beholden to their money and world was as beholden to their money and taken hostage to their money taken hostage to their money taken hostage to their money psychologically as the Vanderbilts. It psychologically as the Vanderbilts. It psychologically as the Vanderbilts. It told them where they could live, who told them where they could live, who told them where they could live, who they could socialize with, who they can they could socialize with, who they can they could socialize with, who they can marry, who they were allowed to be. Like marry, who they were allowed to be. Like marry, who they were allowed to be. Like they had no independence over their over they had no independence over their over they had no independence over their over their own psychology. And so whenever their own psychology. And so whenever their own psychology. And so whenever the money dictates your life rather than the money dictates your life rather than the money dictates your life rather than you using it as a tool, it's a it's a I you using it as a tool, it's a it's a I you using it as a tool, it's a it's a I think in those situations, money can be think in those situations, money can be think in those situations, money can be a financial asset, but it's a a financial asset, but it's a a financial asset, but it's a psychological liability. Yes, it's a psychological liability. Yes, it's a psychological liability. Yes, it's a financial asset on your on on your financial asset on your on on your financial asset on your on on your balance sheet, but it's completely balance sheet, but it's completely balance sheet, but it's completely hijacked your identity and your thought hijacked your identity and your thought hijacked your identity and your thought process. And once that happens, it's process. And once that happens, it's process. And once that happens, it's very difficult for you to use it as a very difficult for you to use it as a very difficult for you to use it as a tool to live a better life. tool to live a better life. tool to live a better life. >> Appropo of you being a saver. >> Appropo of you being a saver. >> Appropo of you being a saver. A friend of mine, uh, Ricky used a term A friend of mine, uh, Ricky used a term A friend of mine, uh, Ricky used a term recently, and I hopefully I'm not going recently, and I hopefully I'm not going recently, and I hopefully I'm not going to mangle it, but he talked about to mangle it, but he talked about to mangle it, but he talked about recreational frugality. He loves to gify recreational frugality. He loves to gify recreational frugality. He loves to gify his cheapness out in the world. Um you his cheapness out in the world. Um you his cheapness out in the world. Um you have a chapter called the finer things have a chapter called the finer things have a chapter called the finer things in would you talk about the up uh the in would you talk about the up uh the in would you talk about the up uh the upside and the downside of obsessing upside and the downside of obsessing upside and the downside of obsessing over small expenses. What what should we over small expenses. What what should we over small expenses. What what should we know? know? know? >> I think what's what's important and this >> I think what's what's important and this >> I think what's what's important and this is a great segue from the previous is a great segue from the previous is a great segue from the previous question of money hijacking your question of money hijacking your question of money hijacking your identity. If I can perfectly guess how identity. If I can perfectly guess how identity. If I can perfectly guess how much money you spend on certain topics much money you spend on certain topics much money you spend on certain topics if you just tell me your salary. There's if you just tell me your salary. There's if you just tell me your salary. There's a good chance that you're not thinking a good chance that you're not thinking a good chance that you're not thinking independently. you're just spending your independently. you're just spending your independently. you're just spending your money in a way that society tells you to money in a way that society tells you to money in a way that society tells you to do. And especially for people that are do. And especially for people that are do. And especially for people that are over a modest amount of income, there over a modest amount of income, there over a modest amount of income, there should be parts of your spending that should be parts of your spending that should be parts of your spending that don't make a lot of sense. You spend way don't make a lot of sense. You spend way don't make a lot of sense. You spend way less than average on this and way above less than average on this and way above less than average on this and way above average on that because you don't value average on that because you don't value average on that because you don't value this thing and you really value that this thing and you really value that this thing and you really value that thing. I got this concept from Ramit Si, thing. I got this concept from Ramit Si, thing. I got this concept from Ramit Si, who's a great financial thinker and who's a great financial thinker and who's a great financial thinker and author and his version of this, if I'm author and his version of this, if I'm author and his version of this, if I'm remembering it correctly, uh he's done remembering it correctly, uh he's done remembering it correctly, uh he's done quite well for himself financially, but quite well for himself financially, but quite well for himself financially, but he's not a car guy. So, I think he he's not a car guy. So, I think he he's not a car guy. So, I think he drives like an older Honda Accord, but drives like an older Honda Accord, but drives like an older Honda Accord, but he loves clothes. He loves fashion and he loves clothes. He loves fashion and he loves clothes. He loves fashion and spends a fortune on fashion. That's the spends a fortune on fashion. That's the spends a fortune on fashion. That's the kind of mindset, whatever your version kind of mindset, whatever your version kind of mindset, whatever your version of that, that should be. I'm I'm not a a of that, that should be. I'm I'm not a a of that, that should be. I'm I'm not a a wine drinker. And I've had people try to wine drinker. And I've had people try to wine drinker. And I've had people try to make me one. They'll be like, "Okay, you make me one. They'll be like, "Okay, you make me one. They'll be like, "Okay, you haven't tried the right one. Try this haven't tried the right one. Try this haven't tried the right one. Try this one. It's going to change your life." one. It's going to change your life." one. It's going to change your life." And I drink it and it's just it's all it And I drink it and it's just it's all it And I drink it and it's just it's all it all tastes the same to me. And so, I all tastes the same to me. And so, I all tastes the same to me. And so, I would never in a million years spend would never in a million years spend would never in a million years spend more than 10 or 12 bucks on a bottle of more than 10 or 12 bucks on a bottle of more than 10 or 12 bucks on a bottle of wine. there are other areas that I do wine. there are other areas that I do wine. there are other areas that I do spend more than other people on. Um even spend more than other people on. Um even spend more than other people on. Um even people who have the same income than I people who have the same income than I people who have the same income than I do that I value even if they don't. And do that I value even if they don't. And do that I value even if they don't. And so the idea that there's no formula on so the idea that there's no formula on so the idea that there's no formula on how to do this, you have to figure it how to do this, you have to figure it how to do this, you have to figure it out for yourself. And if you're not you out for yourself. And if you're not you out for yourself. And if you're not you you are not thinking independently you are not thinking independently you are not thinking independently unless there is something like that in unless there is something like that in unless there is something like that in your life where you're spending more your life where you're spending more your life where you're spending more than you than other people might think than you than other people might think than you than other people might think you should and less on other items, then you should and less on other items, then you should and less on other items, then you're probably not thinking you're probably not thinking you're probably not thinking independently. independently. independently. >> Is it true that you recommend we should >> Is it true that you recommend we should >> Is it true that you recommend we should check our bank account daily? And if so, check our bank account daily? And if so, check our bank account daily? And if so, why? why? why? >> Well, I think particularly for young >> Well, I think particularly for young >> Well, I think particularly for young people, it's the simplest activity that people, it's the simplest activity that people, it's the simplest activity that moves the needle the most financially. I moves the needle the most financially. I moves the needle the most financially. I think most poor financial outcomes are think most poor financial outcomes are think most poor financial outcomes are not because of lack of intelligence or not because of lack of intelligence or not because of lack of intelligence or even lack of self-control. It's lack of even lack of self-control. It's lack of even lack of self-control. It's lack of awareness. And the majority of people, awareness. And the majority of people, awareness. And the majority of people, if you ask them right now, how much if you ask them right now, how much if you ask them right now, how much money do you make per month? And how money do you make per month? And how money do you make per month? And how much money do you spend per month? And much money do you spend per month? And much money do you spend per month? And what is your net worth? the most basic what is your net worth? the most basic what is your net worth? the most basic questions you could think of in finance. questions you could think of in finance. questions you could think of in finance. The vast majority of people couldn't The vast majority of people couldn't The vast majority of people couldn't tell you or would give you the wrong tell you or would give you the wrong tell you or would give you the wrong answer. It's just out of sight, out of answer. It's just out of sight, out of answer. It's just out of sight, out of mind. And so checking your bank account mind. And so checking your bank account mind. And so checking your bank account every day, it takes 10 seconds. It's ne every day, it takes 10 seconds. It's ne every day, it takes 10 seconds. It's ne it's the easiest thing you can do on it's the easiest thing you can do on it's the easiest thing you can do on your phone to just have a a higher level your phone to just have a a higher level your phone to just have a a higher level of cognition of how much money is going of cognition of how much money is going of cognition of how much money is going in, how much money is going out can in, how much money is going out can in, how much money is going out can really it's the easiest thing you could really it's the easiest thing you could really it's the easiest thing you could do than move the needle in the in the do than move the needle in the in the do than move the needle in the in the greatest degree. And if you don't do greatest degree. And if you don't do greatest degree. And if you don't do that, I mean, I think it's similar with that, I mean, I think it's similar with that, I mean, I think it's similar with food for a lot of people. If you ask food for a lot of people. If you ask food for a lot of people. If you ask people, how many calories did you eat people, how many calories did you eat people, how many calories did you eat yesterday? How many calories did you yesterday? How many calories did you yesterday? How many calories did you burn yesterday? I have no clue whatso burn yesterday? I have no clue whatso burn yesterday? I have no clue whatso whatsoever. And this is why a lot of whatsoever. And this is why a lot of whatsoever. And this is why a lot of people don't have the health outcomes people don't have the health outcomes people don't have the health outcomes that they would that they would want. that they would that they would want. that they would that they would want. It's it's not that they're making bad It's it's not that they're making bad It's it's not that they're making bad decisions, it's that they don't even decisions, it's that they don't even decisions, it's that they don't even understand or are cognizant of the understand or are cognizant of the understand or are cognizant of the decisions that they're making. There's a decisions that they're making. There's a decisions that they're making. There's a lot of truth for that in finance. lot of truth for that in finance. lot of truth for that in finance. >> I think this is apppropo because we're >> I think this is apppropo because we're >> I think this is apppropo because we're talking about checking, you know, having talking about checking, you know, having talking about checking, you know, having some familiarity with the the inflows some familiarity with the the inflows some familiarity with the the inflows and outflows uh of your personal uh and outflows uh of your personal uh and outflows uh of your personal uh balance sheet. You You also, however, balance sheet. You You also, however, balance sheet. You You also, however, have a chapter uh called Spreadsheets have a chapter uh called Spreadsheets have a chapter uh called Spreadsheets Don't Care About Your Feelings. What's Don't Care About Your Feelings. What's Don't Care About Your Feelings. What's that about? that about? that about? >> Well, I first started thinking about >> Well, I first started thinking about >> Well, I first started thinking about this when my my wife and I bought our this when my my wife and I bought our this when my my wife and I bought our first house. We had an infant son. He first house. We had an infant son. He first house. We had an infant son. He was a couple months old at the time. And was a couple months old at the time. And was a couple months old at the time. And I think a lot of parents feel this, I think a lot of parents feel this, I think a lot of parents feel this, especially when they have their first especially when they have their first especially when they have their first kid, if not before. The feeling of I kid, if not before. The feeling of I kid, if not before. The feeling of I don't want to be a renter anymore. I I I don't want to be a renter anymore. I I I don't want to be a renter anymore. I I I need to be a homeowner now, now that I'm need to be a homeowner now, now that I'm need to be a homeowner now, now that I'm a parent, was profound on us. And so we a parent, was profound on us. And so we a parent, was profound on us. And so we we found this house on Zillow that was we found this house on Zillow that was we found this house on Zillow that was in the neighborhood that we wanted to in the neighborhood that we wanted to in the neighborhood that we wanted to live in. We're like, "Oh, that that live in. We're like, "Oh, that that live in. We're like, "Oh, that that looks nice. Let's just go uh there." Oh, looks nice. Let's just go uh there." Oh, looks nice. Let's just go uh there." Oh, oh, and and and and there's an open oh, and and and and there's an open oh, and and and and there's an open house today. Let's visit just to get house today. Let's visit just to get house today. Let's visit just to get some information. We're not interested some information. We're not interested some information. We're not interested in buying it. We just want to go get in buying it. We just want to go get in buying it. We just want to go get some information about it. And we pulled some information about it. And we pulled some information about it. And we pulled into the driveway and my wife gasped and into the driveway and my wife gasped and into the driveway and my wife gasped and she said, "Oh my god, I love it." And she said, "Oh my god, I love it." And she said, "Oh my god, I love it." And and and I did too. And at that moment, and and I did too. And at that moment, and and I did too. And at that moment, the idea that we were just going to seek the idea that we were just going to seek the idea that we were just going to seek some information was completely out the some information was completely out the some information was completely out the door. This was an emotional decision, door. This was an emotional decision, door. This was an emotional decision, but we had an infant son and there was a but we had an infant son and there was a but we had an infant son and there was a kid's tree swing in the front yard and kid's tree swing in the front yard and kid's tree swing in the front yard and we were just like, "Oh, this is this is we were just like, "Oh, this is this is we were just like, "Oh, this is this is perfect." So, the idea that finance is a perfect." So, the idea that finance is a perfect." So, the idea that finance is a spreadsheet endeavor, I think, is is is spreadsheet endeavor, I think, is is is spreadsheet endeavor, I think, is is is lying to yourself. Most of what finance lying to yourself. Most of what finance lying to yourself. Most of what finance is is your retirement and sending your is is your retirement and sending your is is your retirement and sending your kids to college and purchasing a house, kids to college and purchasing a house, kids to college and purchasing a house, that's the majority of what the that's the majority of what the that's the majority of what the financial industry is. And the idea that financial industry is. And the idea that financial industry is. And the idea that you can think about those as numbers you can think about those as numbers you can think about those as numbers rather than emotions and major life rather than emotions and major life rather than emotions and major life milestones is fooling yourself. So I milestones is fooling yourself. So I milestones is fooling yourself. So I think most most good financial decisions think most most good financial decisions think most most good financial decisions are like half spreadsheet and half are like half spreadsheet and half are like half spreadsheet and half heart. One of the ways to phrase this is heart. One of the ways to phrase this is heart. One of the ways to phrase this is like stop thinking that you can think like stop thinking that you can think like stop thinking that you can think rationally. We are not spreadsheets. rationally. We are not spreadsheets. rationally. We are not spreadsheets. We're not robots. We are all broken and We're not robots. We are all broken and We're not robots. We are all broken and imperfect and emotional and hormonal in imperfect and emotional and hormonal in imperfect and emotional and hormonal in our own special ways. I think the best our own special ways. I think the best our own special ways. I think the best you can aim for is to be reasonable with you can aim for is to be reasonable with you can aim for is to be reasonable with your financial decisions. Just be your financial decisions. Just be your financial decisions. Just be reasonable about it. Don't be reasonable about it. Don't be reasonable about it. Don't be unreasonable about it. But you can do unreasonable about it. But you can do unreasonable about it. But you can do things that don't make perfect sense on things that don't make perfect sense on things that don't make perfect sense on a spreadsheet, but they fill some part a spreadsheet, but they fill some part a spreadsheet, but they fill some part in some some part of your soul. They're in some some part of your soul. They're in some some part of your soul. They're they're they're they're filling up some they're they're they're filling up some they're they're they're filling up some void that you have that you really like. void that you have that you really like. void that you have that you really like. Cuz when you're buying a house, it's not Cuz when you're buying a house, it's not Cuz when you're buying a house, it's not just mortgage payment, square footage. just mortgage payment, square footage. just mortgage payment, square footage. When you go to that house, you're When you go to that house, you're When you go to that house, you're envisioning what Christmas morning's envisioning what Christmas morning's envisioning what Christmas morning's going to look like. You're envisioning going to look like. You're envisioning going to look like. You're envisioning like backyard barbecues with your like backyard barbecues with your like backyard barbecues with your friends. That's not on spreadsheet friends. That's not on spreadsheet friends. That's not on spreadsheet anywhere. And it's a very real part of anywhere. And it's a very real part of anywhere. And it's a very real part of how the home buying process works. And how the home buying process works. And how the home buying process works. And so just being aware of that and so just being aware of that and so just being aware of that and accepting of that that this is not a accepting of that that this is not a accepting of that that this is not a math game. This is a lifestyle game and math game. This is a lifestyle game and math game. This is a lifestyle game and this is like a very key part of your this is like a very key part of your this is like a very key part of your identity and like scratching social identity and like scratching social identity and like scratching social issues that itches that you have. That's issues that itches that you have. That's issues that itches that you have. That's really important. Your story about really important. Your story about really important. Your story about buying the house um a ve very similar buying the house um a ve very similar buying the house um a ve very similar story. My wife and I pulled up the story. My wife and I pulled up the story. My wife and I pulled up the driveway of this house that we live in driveway of this house that we live in driveway of this house that we live in now about um 5 years ago and fell now about um 5 years ago and fell now about um 5 years ago and fell irrationally and wholeheartedly in love irrationally and wholeheartedly in love irrationally and wholeheartedly in love with it and just made a series of really with it and just made a series of really with it and just made a series of really stupid financial decisions as a stupid financial decisions as a stupid financial decisions as a consequence and we still love it here, consequence and we still love it here, consequence and we still love it here, but this place is nearly killed us so but this place is nearly killed us so but this place is nearly killed us so many times. So, I totally feel you on many times. So, I totally feel you on many times. So, I totally feel you on that. that. that. >> Oh, it's it's a very So, uh just a >> Oh, it's it's a very So, uh just a >> Oh, it's it's a very So, uh just a couple more questions. Uh we've you and couple more questions. Uh we've you and couple more questions. Uh we've you and I both referenced repeatedly our I both referenced repeatedly our I both referenced repeatedly our children. You also talk in the book children. You also talk in the book children. You also talk in the book about how to talk to about money to your about how to talk to about money to your about how to talk to about money to your kids. What what should we know? kids. What what should we know? kids. What what should we know? >> The first thing is that you don't need >> The first thing is that you don't need >> The first thing is that you don't need to sit them down and lecture them about to sit them down and lecture them about to sit them down and lecture them about money because whether you know it or money because whether you know it or money because whether you know it or not, they're paying attention. Every not, they're paying attention. Every not, they're paying attention. Every time that you as a parent have said, "We time that you as a parent have said, "We time that you as a parent have said, "We can't afford this or we need to buy more can't afford this or we need to buy more can't afford this or we need to buy more of that." or anytime you make a a a of that." or anytime you make a a a of that." or anytime you make a a a snide comment about somebody else's snide comment about somebody else's snide comment about somebody else's finances or about somebody else's finances or about somebody else's finances or about somebody else's spending decisions, they are paying spending decisions, they are paying spending decisions, they are paying attention and forming a mental model in attention and forming a mental model in attention and forming a mental model in their head. their head. their head. >> The closest example of this is politics. >> The closest example of this is politics. >> The closest example of this is politics. There's a lot of studies that will show There's a lot of studies that will show There's a lot of studies that will show that your political beliefs have an that your political beliefs have an that your political beliefs have an extremely high correlation to your extremely high correlation to your extremely high correlation to your father's political beliefs. father's political beliefs. father's political beliefs. >> That by and large what your father >> That by and large what your father >> That by and large what your father believed is what is had had a profound believed is what is had had a profound believed is what is had had a profound impact on you. And it's specifically impact on you. And it's specifically impact on you. And it's specifically your father. And I I and and and most of your father. And I I and and and most of your father. And I I and and and most of the time parents don't sit their the time parents don't sit their the time parents don't sit their children down and tell them this is why children down and tell them this is why children down and tell them this is why we vote the way that we do. It's not we vote the way that we do. It's not we vote the way that we do. It's not explicit, but every time that the that explicit, but every time that the that explicit, but every time that the that the parent made a snide comment about the parent made a snide comment about the parent made a snide comment about politicians, every time that they were politicians, every time that they were politicians, every time that they were watching the news, every time that they watching the news, every time that they watching the news, every time that they made a comment about who they voted for, made a comment about who they voted for, made a comment about who they voted for, the kid paid attention to it. And over the kid paid attention to it. And over the kid paid attention to it. And over time, they form this mental model that time, they form this mental model that time, they form this mental model that can stick with them for life. Money is can stick with them for life. Money is can stick with them for life. Money is very similar to that. So, I think the very similar to that. So, I think the very similar to that. So, I think the best you can do as a parent is lead by best you can do as a parent is lead by best you can do as a parent is lead by example and remember that they're always example and remember that they're always example and remember that they're always paying attention and that actually if paying attention and that actually if paying attention and that actually if you sit them down, particularly when you sit them down, particularly when you sit them down, particularly when they're teenagers, and try to lecture they're teenagers, and try to lecture they're teenagers, and try to lecture them on what the the best thing to do is them on what the the best thing to do is them on what the the best thing to do is financially, they're probably going to financially, they're probably going to financially, they're probably going to rebel against that as most teenagers rebel against that as most teenagers rebel against that as most teenagers would. If your parents trying to force would. If your parents trying to force would. If your parents trying to force wisdom upon you, they're going to push wisdom upon you, they're going to push wisdom upon you, they're going to push that away. But all throughout your life, that away. But all throughout your life, that away. But all throughout your life, they're always paying attention to it. they're always paying attention to it. they're always paying attention to it. So, that's something that I that I try So, that's something that I that I try So, that's something that I that I try to think about quite a bit. I think it's to think about quite a bit. I think it's to think about quite a bit. I think it's important to teach kids to the extent important to teach kids to the extent important to teach kids to the extent that you do, not necessarily what money that you do, not necessarily what money that you do, not necessarily what money can do for you, but what money can't do can do for you, but what money can't do can do for you, but what money can't do for you. for you. for you. >> It's very common for young people, >> It's very common for young people, >> It's very common for young people, particularly in like late teens, early particularly in like late teens, early particularly in like late teens, early 20s, that at that phase of life, 20s, that at that phase of life, 20s, that at that phase of life, >> they don't have a lot of job skills. >> they don't have a lot of job skills. >> they don't have a lot of job skills. They might not have a lot of of of They might not have a lot of of of They might not have a lot of of of humor. They might not have the ability humor. They might not have the ability humor. They might not have the ability to be a good partner. Uh they haven't to be a good partner. Uh they haven't to be a good partner. Uh they haven't learned those skills yet. It's very learned those skills yet. It's very learned those skills yet. It's very common in that young person's life to common in that young person's life to common in that young person's life to say, "Look, I can't gain my love from say, "Look, I can't gain my love from say, "Look, I can't gain my love from job skills or humor or wisdom. Maybe I job skills or humor or wisdom. Maybe I job skills or humor or wisdom. Maybe I can gain it through money." And so the can gain it through money." And so the can gain it through money." And so the appeal that money is the solution to appeal that money is the solution to appeal that money is the solution to your problems and that money will make your problems and that money will make your problems and that money will make you who you are is very appealing to you who you are is very appealing to you who you are is very appealing to young people. It's the most appealing to young people. It's the most appealing to young people. It's the most appealing to young people because they don't have any young people because they don't have any young people because they don't have any other way to gain that love and other way to gain that love and other way to gain that love and attention and admiration in other attention and admiration in other attention and admiration in other endeavors. So I think if there is endeavors. So I think if there is endeavors. So I think if there is something to teach young people, it's something to teach young people, it's something to teach young people, it's yes, good financial management and those yes, good financial management and those yes, good financial management and those kind of things. It's also what money kind of things. It's also what money kind of things. It's also what money cannot do for you. There's a long list cannot do for you. There's a long list cannot do for you. There's a long list of things that money can do for you. of things that money can do for you. of things that money can do for you. There is an even longer list of things There is an even longer list of things There is an even longer list of things that it cannot do for you. that it cannot do for you. that it cannot do for you. >> Final question. You had a great chapter >> Final question. You had a great chapter >> Final question. You had a great chapter title that I'm really agree with and title that I'm really agree with and title that I'm really agree with and this is actually the one thing that I do this is actually the one thing that I do this is actually the one thing that I do lecture my son about. Um, the luckier lecture my son about. Um, the luckier lecture my son about. Um, the luckier you are, the nicer you should be. This you are, the nicer you should be. This you are, the nicer you should be. This is the last question, so I'm going to is the last question, so I'm going to is the last question, so I'm going to take the liberty of giving you a very take the liberty of giving you a very take the liberty of giving you a very long answer to this. And I'll tell you long answer to this. And I'll tell you long answer to this. And I'll tell you the story that uh led me to this idea. the story that uh led me to this idea. the story that uh led me to this idea. It's a one of the one of the coolest It's a one of the one of the coolest It's a one of the one of the coolest stories I've ever heard. It came from stories I've ever heard. It came from stories I've ever heard. It came from the actor Kevin Cosner. And this is back the actor Kevin Cosner. And this is back the actor Kevin Cosner. And this is back in the 1980s when he was a big actor but in the 1980s when he was a big actor but in the 1980s when he was a big actor but not yet an A-list celebrity. And he had not yet an A-list celebrity. And he had not yet an A-list celebrity. And he had a friend who was homeless and moved in a friend who was homeless and moved in a friend who was homeless and moved in with the Cosners. And the friend was a with the Cosners. And the friend was a with the Cosners. And the friend was a writer and and when he was homeless and writer and and when he was homeless and writer and and when he was homeless and moved into the Cosmer Cosner's basement, moved into the Cosmer Cosner's basement, moved into the Cosmer Cosner's basement, I think it was he was writing a script. I think it was he was writing a script. I think it was he was writing a script. The friend was a writer and he's begging The friend was a writer and he's begging The friend was a writer and he's begging the Cosers, Kevin Cosner and his wife, the Cosers, Kevin Cosner and his wife, the Cosers, Kevin Cosner and his wife, please read the script. It's so good. please read the script. It's so good. please read the script. It's so good. The script is the best thing I've ever The script is the best thing I've ever The script is the best thing I've ever read. Please read it. And Kevin and his read. Please read it. And Kevin and his read. Please read it. And Kevin and his wife, no, no, no, not not going to read wife, no, no, no, not not going to read wife, no, no, no, not not going to read your script. Not interested. You're your script. Not interested. You're your script. Not interested. You're you're lucky enough that we let you you're lucky enough that we let you you're lucky enough that we let you moved in. Not reading your script. This moved in. Not reading your script. This moved in. Not reading your script. This guy, I I think started trying to read guy, I I think started trying to read guy, I I think started trying to read the script to the Coster's children at the script to the Coster's children at the script to the Coster's children at the time cuz he thought it was so good. the time cuz he thought it was so good. the time cuz he thought it was so good. And there was a moment when Kevin Kevin And there was a moment when Kevin Kevin And there was a moment when Kevin Kevin Coer's wife said, "Enough. He's out." Coer's wife said, "Enough. He's out." Coer's wife said, "Enough. He's out." And they they sent this guy on his way. And they they sent this guy on his way. And they they sent this guy on his way. He was still homeless when they kicked He was still homeless when they kicked He was still homeless when they kicked him out. And after he moved out, he's him out. And after he moved out, he's him out. And after he moved out, he's keeps calling Kevin, "Have you read my keeps calling Kevin, "Have you read my keeps calling Kevin, "Have you read my script? Have you read my script? It's so script? Have you read my script? It's so script? Have you read my script? It's so good. It's so good. It's so good." I good. It's so good. It's so good." I good. It's so good. It's so good." I think Kevin Cos as he tells a story out think Kevin Cos as he tells a story out think Kevin Cos as he tells a story out of a sense of desperation to get the of a sense of desperation to get the of a sense of desperation to get the friend to shut up, said, "Fine, I'll friend to shut up, said, "Fine, I'll friend to shut up, said, "Fine, I'll read your stupid script." And he went to read your stupid script." And he went to read your stupid script." And he went to where it was stored in his house and he where it was stored in his house and he where it was stored in his house and he pulled it out and the name of the script pulled it out and the name of the script pulled it out and the name of the script was Dances with Wolves, was Dances with Wolves, was Dances with Wolves, which if you're not familiar became which if you're not familiar became which if you're not familiar became Kevin Gosser's blockbuster hit that and Kevin Gosser's blockbuster hit that and Kevin Gosser's blockbuster hit that and he and I, you know, his I I think a take he and I, you know, his I I think a take he and I, you know, his I I think a take away from that is like talent can come away from that is like talent can come away from that is like talent can come from anywhere. And there's too much from anywhere. And there's too much from anywhere. And there's too much association in the world of your worth association in the world of your worth association in the world of your worth is your your your worth as a person and is your your your worth as a person and is your your your worth as a person and your talent as a person as a person is your talent as a person as a person is your talent as a person as a person is equal to your net worth and equal to equal to your net worth and equal to equal to your net worth and equal to your income. It's a very flawed way to your income. It's a very flawed way to your income. It's a very flawed way to think about it. And I think there are so think about it. And I think there are so think about it. And I think there are so many people who have not figured out many people who have not figured out many people who have not figured out finances. They haven't figured out how finances. They haven't figured out how finances. They haven't figured out how to monetize their life yet, but they're to monetize their life yet, but they're to monetize their life yet, but they're very talented. They're very funny. very talented. They're very funny. very talented. They're very funny. They're full of wisdom. They have a lot They're full of wisdom. They have a lot They're full of wisdom. They have a lot to offer. They make incredible friends. to offer. They make incredible friends. to offer. They make incredible friends. But the scorecard of well how much money But the scorecard of well how much money But the scorecard of well how much money do you make and what is your net worth do you make and what is your net worth do you make and what is your net worth becomes more important than anything. becomes more important than anything. becomes more important than anything. And so that's kind of the idea I had of And so that's kind of the idea I had of And so that's kind of the idea I had of the luckier the luckier you are the the luckier the luckier you are the the luckier the luckier you are the nicer you should be. I think the more nicer you should be. I think the more nicer you should be. I think the more money you make the easier it is to tell money you make the easier it is to tell money you make the easier it is to tell yourself that rich people are good yourself that rich people are good yourself that rich people are good people. Rich people are are the people people. Rich people are are the people people. Rich people are are the people who are worth letting into your life who are worth letting into your life who are worth letting into your life that you want to surround yourself with. that you want to surround yourself with. that you want to surround yourself with. And I think it's a it's a very flawed And I think it's a it's a very flawed And I think it's a it's a very flawed assumption. And the only way to break assumption. And the only way to break assumption. And the only way to break out of that and to understand that out of that and to understand that out of that and to understand that everybody of all income have values to everybody of all income have values to everybody of all income have values to add in the world and and benefits and add in the world and and benefits and add in the world and and benefits and joy to add to your life is the idea of joy to add to your life is the idea of joy to add to your life is the idea of the luckier you are and the nicer you the luckier you are and the nicer you the luckier you are and the nicer you should be. should be. should be. >> I did lie when I said it was my last >> I did lie when I said it was my last >> I did lie when I said it was my last question. I actually always end on two question. I actually always end on two question. I actually always end on two uh questions. One is um is there uh questions. One is um is there uh questions. One is um is there something you were hoping we would get something you were hoping we would get something you were hoping we would get to that we haven't? to that we haven't? to that we haven't? >> No. Nothing comes to mind. This is a >> No. Nothing comes to mind. This is a >> No. Nothing comes to mind. This is a this is a great conversation. this is a great conversation. this is a great conversation. >> I agree it was a great conversation. Um, >> I agree it was a great conversation. Um, >> I agree it was a great conversation. Um, second, can you remind everybody of the second, can you remind everybody of the second, can you remind everybody of the name of your new book, the book that name of your new book, the book that name of your new book, the book that preceded it, anything else you've made preceded it, anything else you've made preceded it, anything else you've made that you want us to know about? that you want us to know about? that you want us to know about? >> So, I've written three books. My first >> So, I've written three books. My first >> So, I've written three books. My first book is called The Psychology of Money. book is called The Psychology of Money. book is called The Psychology of Money. Uh, I wrote another book called Same as Uh, I wrote another book called Same as Uh, I wrote another book called Same as Ever about behaviors that never change Ever about behaviors that never change Ever about behaviors that never change over time. And my latest book is called over time. And my latest book is called over time. And my latest book is called The Art of Spending Money. The Art of Spending Money. The Art of Spending Money. >> Socials, website, etc. >> Socials, website, etc. >> Socials, website, etc. >> I spend I spend I I have my my social >> I spend I spend I I have my my social >> I spend I spend I I have my my social media drug of choice has become Twitter media drug of choice has become Twitter media drug of choice has become Twitter over time. I'm trying to wean myself over time. I'm trying to wean myself over time. I'm trying to wean myself from it. I don't know if I'm doing a from it. I don't know if I'm doing a from it. I don't know if I'm doing a very good job of it. Um, but the books very good job of it. Um, but the books very good job of it. Um, but the books that I write I is the vast majority of that I write I is the vast majority of that I write I is the vast majority of what I do and I've kind of downloaded what I do and I've kind of downloaded what I do and I've kind of downloaded everything that I've learned over the everything that I've learned over the everything that I've learned over the last 20 years into those books. So, if last 20 years into those books. So, if last 20 years into those books. So, if you're interested in more, that's the you're interested in more, that's the you're interested in more, that's the place to check it out. place to check it out. place to check it out. >> Awesome. Uh, Morgan, really appreciate >> Awesome. Uh, Morgan, really appreciate >> Awesome. Uh, Morgan, really appreciate your time. Always great to talk to you. your time. Always great to talk to you. your time. Always great to talk to you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. >> Thanks, Dan. This is fun.