Why Great Builders are Heretics | Palantir CTO

My guest today is Sham Sankar, the CTO My guest today is Sham Sankar, the CTO of Palunteer Technologies. I think of Palunteer Technologies. I think of Palunteer Technologies. I think you'll find by listening to Sham that you'll find by listening to Sham that you'll find by listening to Sham that the business itself, their mission and the business itself, their mission and the business itself, their mission and how they've built it and indeed him and how they've built it and indeed him and how they've built it and indeed him and his life are completely fascinating. We his life are completely fascinating. We his life are completely fascinating. We talk about his entire worldview, which I talk about his entire worldview, which I talk about his entire worldview, which I find personally the most interesting. find personally the most interesting. find personally the most interesting. This need to re-industrialize the United This need to re-industrialize the United This need to re-industrialize the United States after decades of moving so much States after decades of moving so much States after decades of moving so much of our production and as he would argue of our production and as he would argue of our production and as he would argue therefore our learning of how to therefore our learning of how to therefore our learning of how to innovate and make things off of our own innovate and make things off of our own innovate and make things off of our own shores. We talk about the history of shores. We talk about the history of shores. We talk about the history of heretics, people who have against the heretics, people who have against the heretics, people who have against the odds designed solutions that have driven odds designed solutions that have driven odds designed solutions that have driven so much of our success around the world. so much of our success around the world. so much of our success around the world. Please enjoy my conversation with Sham Please enjoy my conversation with Sham Please enjoy my conversation with Sham Sangar. So Sham, I think the most fun place for So Sham, I think the most fun place for me to begin because it's an it's an area me to begin because it's an it's an area me to begin because it's an it's an area that you're interested in that I'm that you're interested in that I'm that you're interested in that I'm fascinated by is a history of people in fascinated by is a history of people in fascinated by is a history of people in American military lore who you call American military lore who you call American military lore who you call heretics. You refer to them as heretics. heretics. You refer to them as heretics. heretics. You refer to them as heretics. People like Heyman Rickover and Andrew People like Heyman Rickover and Andrew People like Heyman Rickover and Andrew Higgins who designed 90% of the boats Higgins who designed 90% of the boats Higgins who designed 90% of the boats that landed at Normandy. John Boyd who that landed at Normandy. John Boyd who that landed at Normandy. John Boyd who invented the udaloop which one of the invented the udaloop which one of the invented the udaloop which one of the great biographies of a of a military great biographies of a of a military great biographies of a of a military figure that I've ever read. talk to us a figure that I've ever read. talk to us a figure that I've ever read. talk to us a little bit about how you would define a little bit about how you would define a little bit about how you would define a heretic um in your use of that term and heretic um in your use of that term and heretic um in your use of that term and why you're so interested in that group why you're so interested in that group why you're so interested in that group of people in US history. of people in US history. of people in US history. >> Well, I think they're really founders, >> Well, I think they're really founders, >> Well, I think they're really founders, you know, they're founder figures uh and you know, they're founder figures uh and you know, they're founder figures uh and they get obsessed with delivering they get obsessed with delivering they get obsessed with delivering something that it makes no sense because something that it makes no sense because something that it makes no sense because they're fighting particularly in the they're fighting particularly in the they're fighting particularly in the military context. You're like fighting military context. You're like fighting military context. You're like fighting the bureaucracy. You're going to end the bureaucracy. You're going to end the bureaucracy. You're going to end your career. You pay extreme prices for your career. You pay extreme prices for your career. You pay extreme prices for it. So there's almost like a it. So there's almost like a it. So there's almost like a pathological obsession with winning pathological obsession with winning pathological obsession with winning which I really relate to both personally which I really relate to both personally which I really relate to both personally but also that's what I see in great but also that's what I see in great but also that's what I see in great founders. I think founders. I think founders. I think >> in the present moment it's really >> in the present moment it's really >> in the present moment it's really important to like encourage the that the important to like encourage the that the important to like encourage the that the hidden heretics who are in there in the hidden heretics who are in there in the hidden heretics who are in there in the military today to recognize like your military today to recognize like your military today to recognize like your heresy matters. And frankly if you look heresy matters. And frankly if you look heresy matters. And frankly if you look back at history the only [ __ ] that ever back at history the only [ __ ] that ever back at history the only [ __ ] that ever worked the things that helped us win all worked the things that helped us win all worked the things that helped us win all the wars were the things that the the wars were the things that the the wars were the things that the heretics actually did. Nothing that went heretics actually did. Nothing that went heretics actually did. Nothing that went through the machine delivered anything. through the machine delivered anything. through the machine delivered anything. I think all change comes from these I think all change comes from these I think all change comes from these these heretics and they only later these heretics and they only later these heretics and they only later become heroes. If you think about like become heroes. If you think about like become heroes. If you think about like Billy Mitchell who invented the Air Billy Mitchell who invented the Air Billy Mitchell who invented the Air Force, you know, he was court marshaled Force, you know, he was court marshaled Force, you know, he was court marshaled and died penalous and depressed and only and died penalous and depressed and only and died penalous and depressed and only after his death did we invent the Air after his death did we invent the Air after his death did we invent the Air Force based on his original heresy. I'm Force based on his original heresy. I'm Force based on his original heresy. I'm just fascinated with what motivates just fascinated with what motivates just fascinated with what motivates these folks to keep doing this. And I I these folks to keep doing this. And I I these folks to keep doing this. And I I guess I relish a little bit in in their guess I relish a little bit in in their guess I relish a little bit in in their rebellion and the victory that the rebellion and the victory that the rebellion and the victory that the rebellion brings about. If you could rebellion brings about. If you could rebellion brings about. If you could have people study any one heretic story have people study any one heretic story have people study any one heretic story to understand this kind of general idea, to understand this kind of general idea, to understand this kind of general idea, is it his story? Is it someone else's? is it his story? Is it someone else's? is it his story? Is it someone else's? Which one would you pick? Which one would you pick? Which one would you pick? >> I'd probably pick Rick Overs. So, Hyman >> I'd probably pick Rick Overs. So, Hyman >> I'd probably pick Rick Overs. So, Hyman Rick Overber uh born in a shuttle in Rick Overber uh born in a shuttle in Rick Overber uh born in a shuttle in Poland, came to the US when he was six, Poland, came to the US when he was six, Poland, came to the US when he was six, had one of these like near-iss moments had one of these like near-iss moments had one of these like near-iss moments where in those days when you landed at where in those days when you landed at where in those days when you landed at Ellis Island, you had 10 days for Ellis Island, you had 10 days for Ellis Island, you had 10 days for someone to come pick you up. And uh his someone to come pick you up. And uh his someone to come pick you up. And uh his his mother gave someone money to go send his mother gave someone money to go send his mother gave someone money to go send a telegram to the father who'd already a telegram to the father who'd already a telegram to the father who'd already been here. And that guy just pocketed been here. And that guy just pocketed been here. And that guy just pocketed the money. And so it's like the and on the money. And so it's like the and on the money. And so it's like the and on the on the 10th day there was another the on the 10th day there was another the on the 10th day there was another guy who arrived at Ellis Island who said guy who arrived at Ellis Island who said guy who arrived at Ellis Island who said who like bought them one more day who who like bought them one more day who who like bought them one more day who knew them and then he like ran out got knew them and then he like ran out got knew them and then he like ran out got the father got them. So it's like this the father got them. So it's like this the father got them. So it's like this near miss where this guy almost didn't near miss where this guy almost didn't near miss where this guy almost didn't even end up here. He would have been even end up here. He would have been even end up here. He would have been sent back to Poland. Um but he was he sent back to Poland. Um but he was he sent back to Poland. Um but he was he was kind of this feisty character you was kind of this feisty character you was kind of this feisty character you know I think he was like 5'2 very short. know I think he was like 5'2 very short. know I think he was like 5'2 very short. He went to the Naval Academy. He was so He went to the Naval Academy. He was so He went to the Naval Academy. He was so unlikable that like in the yearbook in unlikable that like in the yearbook in unlikable that like in the yearbook in the Naval Academy they had like torn out the Naval Academy they had like torn out the Naval Academy they had like torn out his picture. you know, he's just one of his picture. you know, he's just one of his picture. you know, he's just one of these like difficult people. In World these like difficult people. In World these like difficult people. In World War II, he drove a coal ship. He was not War II, he drove a coal ship. He was not War II, he drove a coal ship. He was not like some exceptionally high performing like some exceptionally high performing like some exceptionally high performing senior, you know, senior military senior, you know, senior military senior, you know, senior military officer commanding a destroyer or officer commanding a destroyer or officer commanding a destroyer or carrier or anything like that. But after carrier or anything like that. But after carrier or anything like that. But after the war, he went to Oakidge and uh and the war, he went to Oakidge and uh and the war, he went to Oakidge and uh and he observed the the vestigages of the he observed the the vestigages of the he observed the the vestigages of the Manhattan project and he had this idea Manhattan project and he had this idea Manhattan project and he had this idea like we could build nuclearpowered like we could build nuclearpowered like we could build nuclearpowered submarines. and he'd had this experience submarines. and he'd had this experience submarines. and he'd had this experience on diesel-powered submarines which suck. on diesel-powered submarines which suck. on diesel-powered submarines which suck. They're basically surface ships that They're basically surface ships that They're basically surface ships that happened to go underwater for like an happened to go underwater for like an happened to go underwater for like an hour. This became this thing he was hour. This became this thing he was hour. This became this thing he was obsessed with. And talk about talk about obsessed with. And talk about talk about obsessed with. And talk about talk about hutzbah like Oppenheimer himself thought hutzbah like Oppenheimer himself thought hutzbah like Oppenheimer himself thought this idea was going to fail, you know? this idea was going to fail, you know? this idea was going to fail, you know? So you have Oppy telling you you're So you have Oppy telling you you're So you have Oppy telling you you're stupid and this isn't going to work and stupid and this isn't going to work and stupid and this isn't going to work and you're just going to go forward, right? you're just going to go forward, right? you're just going to go forward, right? Uh so he started on this project and he Uh so he started on this project and he Uh so he started on this project and he he built the first nuclear submarine in he built the first nuclear submarine in he built the first nuclear submarine in seven years start to finish. The Navy seven years start to finish. The Navy seven years start to finish. The Navy hated him so much that his first office hated him so much that his first office hated him so much that his first office for this project was literally the for this project was literally the for this project was literally the women's restroom. They're like, "What women's restroom. They're like, "What women's restroom. They're like, "What can we do to humiliate this guy into can we do to humiliate this guy into can we do to humiliate this guy into quitting, but he just kept going." And quitting, but he just kept going." And quitting, but he just kept going." And if you actually look at his personal if you actually look at his personal if you actually look at his personal memoirs, you can see that the memoirs, you can see that the memoirs, you can see that the humiliation got to him, but in a way humiliation got to him, but in a way humiliation got to him, but in a way that he could channel it to be like that he could channel it to be like that he could channel it to be like motivating. It wasn't like he was motivating. It wasn't like he was motivating. It wasn't like he was somehow inure the to the pain of it all, somehow inure the to the pain of it all, somehow inure the to the pain of it all, but he could push through it. And I but he could push through it. And I but he could push through it. And I think recognizing like every major think recognizing like every major think recognizing like every major project you do is going to push you in project you do is going to push you in project you do is going to push you in these sorts of ways. And like how do you these sorts of ways. And like how do you these sorts of ways. And like how do you dig deep? How do you grind through the dig deep? How do you grind through the dig deep? How do you grind through the pain? Um, and he created a really unique pain? Um, and he created a really unique pain? Um, and he created a really unique culture in naval reactors which is alive culture in naval reactors which is alive culture in naval reactors which is alive today. So I think part of what's really today. So I think part of what's really today. So I think part of what's really cool is that our nuclear submarine force cool is that our nuclear submarine force cool is that our nuclear submarine force is one of our last remaining asymmetric is one of our last remaining asymmetric is one of our last remaining asymmetric advantages against the Chinese and we advantages against the Chinese and we advantages against the Chinese and we built it in the 50s. What a legacy for built it in the 50s. What a legacy for built it in the 50s. What a legacy for this guy to have built. And then the this guy to have built. And then the this guy to have built. And then the engineering culture that he created um engineering culture that he created um engineering culture that he created um you know he was in this unique role of you know he was in this unique role of you know he was in this unique role of both being a human who would invent the both being a human who would invent the both being a human who would invent the technology and therefore was qualified technology and therefore was qualified technology and therefore was qualified to think about how to regulate it. So to think about how to regulate it. So to think about how to regulate it. So whereas the the Russian submariners, whereas the the Russian submariners, whereas the the Russian submariners, they would send they would spend roughly they would send they would spend roughly they would send they would spend roughly six months at sea and then six months in six months at sea and then six months in six months at sea and then six months in Sochi recovering so their white blood Sochi recovering so their white blood Sochi recovering so their white blood cells could regenerate because the cells could regenerate because the cells could regenerate because the radiation shielding sucked. radiation shielding sucked. radiation shielding sucked. >> We've had no deaths due to nuclear >> We've had no deaths due to nuclear >> We've had no deaths due to nuclear incidents in our submarine force. And he incidents in our submarine force. And he incidents in our submarine force. And he designed it to a standard which is designed it to a standard which is designed it to a standard which is really he's like I'm designing this really he's like I'm designing this really he's like I'm designing this thing so my son could be in it and it's thing so my son could be in it and it's thing so my son could be in it and it's it's 100 times safer than what we it's 100 times safer than what we it's 100 times safer than what we believe the minimum standard to be. And believe the minimum standard to be. And believe the minimum standard to be. And that that sort of obsession it's like a that that sort of obsession it's like a that that sort of obsession it's like a you know it's not a manager's view of you know it's not a manager's view of you know it's not a manager's view of the world it is a founders's view of the the world it is a founders's view of the the world it is a founders's view of the world. world. world. >> One of his legacies like he was an >> One of his legacies like he was an >> One of his legacies like he was an admiral for 30 years and even as an admiral for 30 years and even as an admiral for 30 years and even as an admiral he was very admiral he was very admiral he was very difficult you know Zumbalt who was the difficult you know Zumbalt who was the difficult you know Zumbalt who was the chief of naval operations for a while he chief of naval operations for a while he chief of naval operations for a while he said the navy has three enemies the said the navy has three enemies the said the navy has three enemies the Soviet Union the air force and himman Soviet Union the air force and himman Soviet Union the air force and himman Rickover Rickover Rickover >> most software companies try to maximize >> most software companies try to maximize >> most software companies try to maximize your time on their app to juice your time on their app to juice your time on their app to juice engagement. Ramp does the exact engagement. Ramp does the exact engagement. Ramp does the exact opposite. RAMP understands that no one opposite. RAMP understands that no one opposite. RAMP understands that no one wants to spend hours chasing receipts, wants to spend hours chasing receipts, wants to spend hours chasing receipts, reviewing expense reports, and checking reviewing expense reports, and checking reviewing expense reports, and checking for policy violations. So, they built for policy violations. So, they built for policy violations. So, they built their tools to give that time back, their tools to give that time back, their tools to give that time back, using AI to automate 85% of expense using AI to automate 85% of expense using AI to automate 85% of expense reviews with 99% accuracy. And since reviews with 99% accuracy. And since reviews with 99% accuracy. And since Ramp saves companies 5%, it's no wonder Ramp saves companies 5%, it's no wonder Ramp saves companies 5%, it's no wonder that Shopify runs on RAM, Stripe runs on that Shopify runs on RAM, Stripe runs on that Shopify runs on RAM, Stripe runs on RAM, and my business does, too. To see RAM, and my business does, too. To see RAM, and my business does, too. To see what happens when you eliminate the busy what happens when you eliminate the busy what happens when you eliminate the busy work, check out ramp.com/invest. work, check out ramp.com/invest. work, check out ramp.com/invest. Every investor should know about Rogo Every investor should know about Rogo Every investor should know about Rogo because Rogo Aai's platform is not just because Rogo Aai's platform is not just because Rogo Aai's platform is not just another generic chatbot. Instead, it was another generic chatbot. Instead, it was another generic chatbot. Instead, it was designed to support how Wall Street designed to support how Wall Street designed to support how Wall Street bankers and investors actually work from bankers and investors actually work from bankers and investors actually work from sourcing, diligence, and modeling to sourcing, diligence, and modeling to sourcing, diligence, and modeling to turning analysis into deliverables. For turning analysis into deliverables. For turning analysis into deliverables. For me, three key things differentiate Robo. me, three key things differentiate Robo. me, three key things differentiate Robo. First, it connects directly to your First, it connects directly to your First, it connects directly to your systems, so it can work with your actual systems, so it can work with your actual systems, so it can work with your actual data. Second, it understands your data. Second, it understands your data. Second, it understands your workflows, how work really happens workflows, how work really happens workflows, how work really happens across a deal or an investment. And across a deal or an investment. And across a deal or an investment. And third, it runs end to end and produces third, it runs end to end and produces third, it runs end to end and produces real outputs the way the best people do. real outputs the way the best people do. real outputs the way the best people do. auditable spreadsheets, investment auditable spreadsheets, investment auditable spreadsheets, investment memos, diligence materials, and slide memos, diligence materials, and slide memos, diligence materials, and slide decks that match your standards. This decks that match your standards. This decks that match your standards. This all comes from the fact that Rogo is all comes from the fact that Rogo is all comes from the fact that Rogo is built by finance professionals for built by finance professionals for built by finance professionals for finance professionals. And it's already finance professionals. And it's already finance professionals. And it's already being adopted by some of the most being adopted by some of the most being adopted by some of the most demanding institutions in the world. To demanding institutions in the world. To demanding institutions in the world. To learn more, visit rogo.ai/invest. learn more, visit rogo.ai/invest. learn more, visit rogo.ai/invest. OpenAI, Cursor, Anthropic, Perplexity, OpenAI, Cursor, Anthropic, Perplexity, OpenAI, Cursor, Anthropic, Perplexity, and Verscell all have something in and Verscell all have something in and Verscell all have something in common. They all use WorkOS. And here's common. They all use WorkOS. And here's common. They all use WorkOS. And here's why. To achieve enterprise adoption at why. To achieve enterprise adoption at why. To achieve enterprise adoption at scale, you have to deliver on core scale, you have to deliver on core scale, you have to deliver on core capabilities like SSO, skim, arbback, capabilities like SSO, skim, arbback, capabilities like SSO, skim, arbback, and audit logs. That's where work OS and audit logs. That's where work OS and audit logs. That's where work OS comes in. Instead of spending months comes in. Instead of spending months comes in. Instead of spending months building these mission critical building these mission critical building these mission critical capabilities yourself, you can just use capabilities yourself, you can just use capabilities yourself, you can just use work OS APIs to gain all of them on day work OS APIs to gain all of them on day work OS APIs to gain all of them on day zero. That's why so many of the top AI zero. That's why so many of the top AI zero. That's why so many of the top AI teams you hear about already run on work teams you hear about already run on work teams you hear about already run on work OS. Work OS is the fastest way to become OS. Work OS is the fastest way to become OS. Work OS is the fastest way to become enterprise ready and stay focused on enterprise ready and stay focused on enterprise ready and stay focused on what matters most, your product. Visit what matters most, your product. Visit what matters most, your product. Visit works.com to get started. I remember works.com to get started. I remember works.com to get started. I remember reading the book about John Boyd who reading the book about John Boyd who reading the book about John Boyd who three times he was sort of the best three times he was sort of the best three times he was sort of the best fighter pilot. Then he helped develop fighter pilot. Then he helped develop fighter pilot. Then he helped develop the F-16 and then he came up with like the F-16 and then he came up with like the F-16 and then he came up with like the military strategy concept that was the military strategy concept that was the military strategy concept that was instrumental in in um in some of the US instrumental in in um in some of the US instrumental in in um in some of the US wars in the '90s. And he was sort of a wars in the '90s. And he was sort of a wars in the '90s. And he was sort of a bastard as well, like a highly disliked, bastard as well, like a highly disliked, bastard as well, like a highly disliked, really bad father, highly disagreeable, really bad father, highly disagreeable, really bad father, highly disagreeable, but incredibly important in in US but incredibly important in in US but incredibly important in in US military history. You don't seem to have military history. You don't seem to have military history. You don't seem to have that kind of personality. like you seem that kind of personality. like you seem that kind of personality. like you seem you seem very like by all accounts like you seem very like by all accounts like you seem very like by all accounts like very likable within Palunteer and very likable within Palunteer and very likable within Palunteer and outside of Palunteer. outside of Palunteer. outside of Palunteer. Say a bit about your own Say a bit about your own Say a bit about your own disagreeableness like where does it disagreeableness like where does it disagreeableness like where does it surface uh it seems like this is a field surface uh it seems like this is a field surface uh it seems like this is a field in which you have to have a very clear in which you have to have a very clear in which you have to have a very clear view of how things should be which we'll view of how things should be which we'll view of how things should be which we'll talk a lot about in a few minutes and talk a lot about in a few minutes and talk a lot about in a few minutes and then this sort of like disagreeableness then this sort of like disagreeableness then this sort of like disagreeableness and resilience and persistence to like and resilience and persistence to like and resilience and persistence to like make it happen. And that seems a little make it happen. And that seems a little make it happen. And that seems a little bit at odds with with your personality bit at odds with with your personality bit at odds with with your personality from what I can tell. Curious how how from what I can tell. Curious how how from what I can tell. Curious how how you think about that. It surfaces in you think about that. It surfaces in you think about that. It surfaces in certain ways. You know, as as Karp would certain ways. You know, as as Karp would certain ways. You know, as as Karp would say, I'm not everyone's cup of tea where say, I'm not everyone's cup of tea where say, I'm not everyone's cup of tea where you can very clearly see it is like in you can very clearly see it is like in you can very clearly see it is like in the early days of Palunteer, the early days of Palunteer, the early days of Palunteer, you would you'd be dealing with the you would you'd be dealing with the you would you'd be dealing with the government and it's easy to think about government and it's easy to think about government and it's easy to think about as a monolith, but you have, you know, as a monolith, but you have, you know, as a monolith, but you have, you know, you have operators who want to use your you have operators who want to use your you have operators who want to use your software but are not in charge of buying software but are not in charge of buying software but are not in charge of buying it. And you have the IT people or the it. And you have the IT people or the it. And you have the IT people or the program who's in charge of building what program who's in charge of building what program who's in charge of building what you would be building. So, you're you're you would be building. So, you're you're you would be building. So, you're you're kind of structural threat to them. kind of structural threat to them. kind of structural threat to them. The advice is to go along and get along The advice is to go along and get along The advice is to go along and get along like, hey, those guys are the people like, hey, those guys are the people like, hey, those guys are the people paying you. Why don't you just do what paying you. Why don't you just do what paying you. Why don't you just do what they want? The problem is if I did what they want? The problem is if I did what they want? The problem is if I did what they want, it wouldn't work. And so they want, it wouldn't work. And so they want, it wouldn't work. And so that's where the disagreeableness comes that's where the disagreeableness comes that's where the disagreeableness comes in. It's being ordinary about like, no, in. It's being ordinary about like, no, in. It's being ordinary about like, no, I'm going to deliver the thing that I'm going to deliver the thing that I'm going to deliver the thing that actually works for the operator. I'm actually works for the operator. I'm actually works for the operator. I'm going to piss off literally everyone going to piss off literally everyone going to piss off literally everyone along the way. They are knives out going along the way. They are knives out going along the way. They are knives out going to try to kill you. You know, we have to to try to kill you. You know, we have to to try to kill you. You know, we have to sue the army to compete at some point. sue the army to compete at some point. sue the army to compete at some point. And I think in that that vein of being And I think in that that vein of being And I think in that that vein of being truly committed to is the product truly committed to is the product truly committed to is the product excellent? What else could it be doing? excellent? What else could it be doing? excellent? What else could it be doing? You could think about the whole udal You could think about the whole udal You could think about the whole udal loop of forward deployed engineering is loop of forward deployed engineering is loop of forward deployed engineering is that it's this continuously solving that it's this continuously solving that it's this continuously solving through back propagation of what should through back propagation of what should through back propagation of what should the product be and that like that's like the product be and that like that's like the product be and that like that's like the motor of of innovation. the motor of of innovation. the motor of of innovation. >> If I think about uh Palunteer's story >> If I think about uh Palunteer's story >> If I think about uh Palunteer's story and success and and your part of that and success and and your part of that and success and and your part of that story, your personal worldview seems story, your personal worldview seems story, your personal worldview seems really important and you having a really important and you having a really important and you having a strongly held worldview seems like a a strongly held worldview seems like a a strongly held worldview seems like a a key component of being able to do what key component of being able to do what key component of being able to do what you've done over the last you know 10 you've done over the last you know 10 you've done over the last you know 10 plus years. I would love to hear the the plus years. I would love to hear the the plus years. I would love to hear the the formative experiences that contributed formative experiences that contributed formative experiences that contributed to that worldview. I'm curious just like to that worldview. I'm curious just like to that worldview. I'm curious just like at a high level what your worldview is, at a high level what your worldview is, at a high level what your worldview is, but but maybe even more interested in but but maybe even more interested in but but maybe even more interested in like how you came to it because you've like how you came to it because you've like how you came to it because you've got a very unique personal backstory. got a very unique personal backstory. got a very unique personal backstory. >> I think there's no kind of singular >> I think there's no kind of singular >> I think there's no kind of singular event. I think it's like there's a event. I think it's like there's a event. I think it's like there's a combination of family history, the combination of family history, the combination of family history, the environment that I grew up in. Uh and environment that I grew up in. Uh and environment that I grew up in. Uh and and so, you know, starting with the and so, you know, starting with the and so, you know, starting with the family history part, you know, we fled family history part, you know, we fled family history part, you know, we fled violence in Nigeria where violence in Nigeria where violence in Nigeria where my father, we frankly almost died to my father, we frankly almost died to my father, we frankly almost died to kind of settle in the US and that kind of settle in the US and that kind of settle in the US and that happened pretty young in my father's happened pretty young in my father's happened pretty young in my father's life in his in his like early mid30s. life in his in his like early mid30s. life in his in his like early mid30s. It's a pretty jarring experience where It's a pretty jarring experience where It's a pretty jarring experience where it kind of gives you a whole new lease it kind of gives you a whole new lease it kind of gives you a whole new lease on life after that point where you think on life after that point where you think on life after that point where you think about you have you have a deep amount of about you have you have a deep amount of about you have you have a deep amount of gratitude and perspective on the trials gratitude and perspective on the trials gratitude and perspective on the trials and tribulations that may come ahead. and tribulations that may come ahead. and tribulations that may come ahead. But it also grounds you in a profound But it also grounds you in a profound But it also grounds you in a profound understanding of the counterfactual like understanding of the counterfactual like understanding of the counterfactual like what makes this country so special. what makes this country so special. what makes this country so special. Sometimes it be unmoring not to have Sometimes it be unmoring not to have Sometimes it be unmoring not to have those experiences actually because it's those experiences actually because it's those experiences actually because it's easy to take it for granted. It's easy easy to take it for granted. It's easy easy to take it for granted. It's easy to become cynical. Um, but that that's to become cynical. Um, but that that's to become cynical. Um, but that that's like a a really powerful rooting in like a a really powerful rooting in like a a really powerful rooting in because my father didn't have the because my father didn't have the because my father didn't have the classic immigrant story where he came classic immigrant story where he came classic immigrant story where he came here and became successful, which I here and became successful, which I here and became successful, which I think is is a great thing if it happens think is is a great thing if it happens think is is a great thing if it happens to you, but it's also a fil journey. to you, but it's also a fil journey. to you, but it's also a fil journey. It's easy to appreciate. Dad started It's easy to appreciate. Dad started It's easy to appreciate. Dad started businesses that went bankrupt. It was businesses that went bankrupt. It was businesses that went bankrupt. It was very hard, but having that rooting very hard, but having that rooting very hard, but having that rooting experience that created a graciousness experience that created a graciousness experience that created a graciousness and perspective in him, he was always so and perspective in him, he was always so and perspective in him, he was always so thankful for the opportunity. And so I I thankful for the opportunity. And so I I thankful for the opportunity. And so I I took a lot away from that over time, took a lot away from that over time, took a lot away from that over time, especially as I grew up and could kind especially as I grew up and could kind especially as I grew up and could kind of understand and had awareness of what of understand and had awareness of what of understand and had awareness of what was happening. The second thing I think was happening. The second thing I think was happening. The second thing I think is really important is growing up in is really important is growing up in is really important is growing up in Orlando in the 80s and 90s, it was this Orlando in the 80s and 90s, it was this Orlando in the 80s and 90s, it was this profoundly optimistic period. You could profoundly optimistic period. You could profoundly optimistic period. You could say it was probably pretty optimistic say it was probably pretty optimistic say it was probably pretty optimistic everywhere, but in the shadow of the everywhere, but in the shadow of the everywhere, but in the shadow of the space coast, you were you were kind of space coast, you were you were kind of space coast, you were you were kind of bombarded with this idea that technology bombarded with this idea that technology bombarded with this idea that technology was going to make the world better, that was going to make the world better, that was going to make the world better, that there was a structural positive some there was a structural positive some there was a structural positive some view of everything. Um, and it just it view of everything. Um, and it just it view of everything. Um, and it just it was so motivating, you know, and people was so motivating, you know, and people was so motivating, you know, and people had ambition around these things. Uh, had ambition around these things. Uh, had ambition around these things. Uh, and so I think that that really kind of and so I think that that really kind of and so I think that that really kind of set a frame for me for how I thought set a frame for me for how I thought set a frame for me for how I thought about things and how I want to spend my about things and how I want to spend my about things and how I want to spend my life and energy. I think that's really life and energy. I think that's really life and energy. I think that's really it. It's it's this commitment to it. It's it's this commitment to it. It's it's this commitment to building. Part of what's interesting building. Part of what's interesting building. Part of what's interesting about the heretics that I'm drawn to is about the heretics that I'm drawn to is about the heretics that I'm drawn to is that they're all builders of some sort. that they're all builders of some sort. that they're all builders of some sort. The conversion from heresy to heroism is The conversion from heresy to heroism is The conversion from heresy to heroism is a is a result of an empirical thing they a is a result of an empirical thing they a is a result of an empirical thing they built. You know, like John Boyd was built. You know, like John Boyd was built. You know, like John Boyd was alive to see the success of his alive to see the success of his alive to see the success of his innovations for Gulf War I where the US innovations for Gulf War I where the US innovations for Gulf War I where the US destroyed the fourth largest army in the destroyed the fourth largest army in the destroyed the fourth largest army in the world. And it's it's hard to think about world. And it's it's hard to think about world. And it's it's hard to think about now because we think about it as almost now because we think about it as almost now because we think about it as almost a foregone conclusion. But leading up to a foregone conclusion. But leading up to a foregone conclusion. But leading up to it, there was a lot of uncertainty. So it, there was a lot of uncertainty. So it, there was a lot of uncertainty. So that that worldview is kind of centered that that worldview is kind of centered that that worldview is kind of centered in an understanding like look, I think in an understanding like look, I think in an understanding like look, I think the US is the greatest force of good the US is the greatest force of good the US is the greatest force of good that exists in the world. Um that um that exists in the world. Um that um that exists in the world. Um that um as a country, we understand that there's as a country, we understand that there's as a country, we understand that there's something special about founders. something special about founders. something special about founders. There's a reason we called them the There's a reason we called them the There's a reason we called them the founding fathers. You know, if you think founding fathers. You know, if you think founding fathers. You know, if you think about just empirically, Europe has about just empirically, Europe has about just empirically, Europe has created zero zero companies worth more created zero zero companies worth more created zero zero companies worth more than hundred billion euro from scratch than hundred billion euro from scratch than hundred billion euro from scratch in the last 50 years. It's almost almost in the last 50 years. It's almost almost in the last 50 years. It's almost almost an astonishingly bad track record. We've an astonishingly bad track record. We've an astonishingly bad track record. We've created all of our trillion dollar created all of our trillion dollar created all of our trillion dollar companies from scratch in the last 50 companies from scratch in the last 50 companies from scratch in the last 50 years. The primacy of people and being years. The primacy of people and being years. The primacy of people and being in a culture and environment that allows in a culture and environment that allows in a culture and environment that allows that to happen, that doesn't subjugate that to happen, that doesn't subjugate that to happen, that doesn't subjugate the human, doesn't like snuff out human the human, doesn't like snuff out human the human, doesn't like snuff out human flourishing, that allows you to pursue flourishing, that allows you to pursue flourishing, that allows you to pursue these things. That may seem trivial, but these things. That may seem trivial, but these things. That may seem trivial, but the heretics are all a version of that. the heretics are all a version of that. the heretics are all a version of that. And it's not like polyanish where And it's not like polyanish where And it's not like polyanish where there's no resistance to these there's no resistance to these there's no resistance to these creatives. It's like despite the creatives. It's like despite the creatives. It's like despite the resistance, you can succeed here, which resistance, you can succeed here, which resistance, you can succeed here, which is really not true, I think, basically is really not true, I think, basically is really not true, I think, basically anywhere else. anywhere else. anywhere else. >> What was your dad like personally? >> What was your dad like personally? >> What was your dad like personally? >> The kind of pieces of his personality >> The kind of pieces of his personality >> The kind of pieces of his personality that I said that always stuck with me. that I said that always stuck with me. that I said that always stuck with me. It's like every spare moment this man It's like every spare moment this man It's like every spare moment this man had, even though he was so busy and he had, even though he was so busy and he had, even though he was so busy and he was just grinding, he would be on the was just grinding, he would be on the was just grinding, he would be on the phone trying to help someone. I had this phone trying to help someone. I had this phone trying to help someone. I had this weird memory of someone who almost my weird memory of someone who almost my weird memory of someone who almost my dad had this sort of engineering autism dad had this sort of engineering autism dad had this sort of engineering autism that I think a lot of us have, but he that I think a lot of us have, but he that I think a lot of us have, but he met someone who had totally disfigured met someone who had totally disfigured met someone who had totally disfigured teeth and he just had the teeth and he just had the teeth and he just had the actually profound kindness to tell him actually profound kindness to tell him actually profound kindness to tell him like you should get cosmetic surgery. like you should get cosmetic surgery. like you should get cosmetic surgery. And that guy is so profoundly thankful And that guy is so profoundly thankful And that guy is so profoundly thankful that no one else had the balls to say that no one else had the balls to say that no one else had the balls to say that, right? Like this actually changed that, right? Like this actually changed that, right? Like this actually changed his job prospects. It changed his life. his job prospects. It changed his life. his job prospects. It changed his life. And so he's he's just one of these And so he's he's just one of these And so he's he's just one of these people. you clearly can see the positive people. you clearly can see the positive people. you clearly can see the positive someness in him like hey I'm just going someness in him like hey I'm just going someness in him like hey I'm just going to keep paying it forward. to keep paying it forward. to keep paying it forward. >> If you had to identify the component >> If you had to identify the component >> If you had to identify the component parts that make America the thing that parts that make America the thing that parts that make America the thing that you think is the greatest country in the you think is the greatest country in the you think is the greatest country in the world what are the key components world what are the key components world what are the key components obviously maybe democracy is one but I obviously maybe democracy is one but I obviously maybe democracy is one but I don't want to take for granted like the don't want to take for granted like the don't want to take for granted like the things given your life experience and things given your life experience and things given your life experience and your unique perspective that you think your unique perspective that you think your unique perspective that you think most add up to this being a place worth most add up to this being a place worth most add up to this being a place worth your life's work to you know extend your life's work to you know extend your life's work to you know extend their interest protect their interests their interest protect their interests their interest protect their interests etc. a belief in exceptionalism and etc. a belief in exceptionalism and etc. a belief in exceptionalism and greatness. No army that lost its morale greatness. No army that lost its morale greatness. No army that lost its morale ever won the war. And so believing in ever won the war. And so believing in ever won the war. And so believing in yourself, believing that greatness is yourself, believing that greatness is yourself, believing that greatness is possible, is a precondition to being possible, is a precondition to being possible, is a precondition to being able to express it and realize it. And a able to express it and realize it. And a able to express it and realize it. And a lot of cultures don't have that. The lot of cultures don't have that. The lot of cultures don't have that. The other thing, which I know sounds really other thing, which I know sounds really other thing, which I know sounds really simple, but is is a complete plasticity simple, but is is a complete plasticity simple, but is is a complete plasticity of thought. You know, culturally, of thought. You know, culturally, of thought. You know, culturally, America is a place where people do America is a place where people do America is a place where people do change their minds. Like, hey, this change their minds. Like, hey, this change their minds. Like, hey, this isn't working. Let's do something isn't working. Let's do something isn't working. Let's do something different. Or I observe that thing different. Or I observe that thing different. Or I observe that thing working even though it goes against the working even though it goes against the working even though it goes against the orthodoxy of everything I've learned. orthodoxy of everything I've learned. orthodoxy of everything I've learned. We're moving. We're pivoting. In Europe, We're moving. We're pivoting. In Europe, We're moving. We're pivoting. In Europe, people start arguing about [ __ ] that people start arguing about [ __ ] that people start arguing about [ __ ] that happened 300 years ago. And some of happened 300 years ago. And some of happened 300 years ago. And some of these cultures are so rooted in the past these cultures are so rooted in the past these cultures are so rooted in the past that they can't update their priors. And that they can't update their priors. And that they can't update their priors. And so, a culture that's capable of so, a culture that's capable of so, a culture that's capable of learning, you could call it plasticity, learning, you could call it plasticity, learning, you could call it plasticity, first derivative of learning. Um, but first derivative of learning. Um, but first derivative of learning. Um, but how can you make progress without that? how can you make progress without that? how can you make progress without that? >> What does greatness mean to you in >> What does greatness mean to you in >> What does greatness mean to you in general? And also, I'm curious how you general? And also, I'm curious how you general? And also, I'm curious how you think about it personally, like if you think about it personally, like if you think about it personally, like if you are personally in pursuit of greatness, are personally in pursuit of greatness, are personally in pursuit of greatness, what what has that meant? What does that what what has that meant? What does that what what has that meant? What does that require? an aspiration that's require? an aspiration that's require? an aspiration that's substantially bigger than oneself. The substantially bigger than oneself. The substantially bigger than oneself. The focus of American greatness is on focus of American greatness is on focus of American greatness is on American prosperity and the American American prosperity and the American American prosperity and the American worker. Like how can we go do things worker. Like how can we go do things worker. Like how can we go do things that are actually enriching our that are actually enriching our that are actually enriching our civilization, our people, raising their civilization, our people, raising their civilization, our people, raising their own aspirations, uh inspiring them to go own aspirations, uh inspiring them to go own aspirations, uh inspiring them to go on and do great things. There's this on and do great things. There's this on and do great things. There's this unstable equilibrium in civilization unstable equilibrium in civilization unstable equilibrium in civilization um that pulls you towards nealism. Uh um that pulls you towards nealism. Uh um that pulls you towards nealism. Uh and greatness is the antidote that it's and greatness is the antidote that it's and greatness is the antidote that it's it's the counterveilling force to saying it's the counterveilling force to saying it's the counterveilling force to saying like no like actually it's worth like no like actually it's worth like no like actually it's worth investing in our institutions. It's investing in our institutions. It's investing in our institutions. It's worth going through this painful journey worth going through this painful journey worth going through this painful journey because what we're going to get on the because what we're going to get on the because what we're going to get on the other end is something better, something other end is something better, something other end is something better, something that we all aspire for, something that that we all aspire for, something that that we all aspire for, something that mo that you will be proud to pass down mo that you will be proud to pass down mo that you will be proud to pass down to your children. to your children. to your children. >> Is there an example of greatness that >> Is there an example of greatness that >> Is there an example of greatness that you've witnessed in someone else you've witnessed in someone else you've witnessed in someone else firsthand firsthand firsthand that most stands out? that most stands out? that most stands out? >> Well, the obvious one to me is um is is >> Well, the obvious one to me is um is is >> Well, the obvious one to me is um is is Alex Karp. You know, I think his ability Alex Karp. You know, I think his ability Alex Karp. You know, I think his ability to really manage and unlock talent is to really manage and unlock talent is to really manage and unlock talent is something like I've never seen before. something like I've never seen before. something like I've never seen before. And those are some of the most profound And those are some of the most profound And those are some of the most profound lessons I've really learned about lessons I've really learned about lessons I've really learned about talentry. You know, from the very early talentry. You know, from the very early talentry. You know, from the very early days, he modeled our entire company as days, he modeled our entire company as days, he modeled our entire company as an artist colony. And um it's it's like an artist colony. And um it's it's like an artist colony. And um it's it's like we have more in common with like a we have more in common with like a we have more in common with like a Hollywood talent agency than we do with Hollywood talent agency than we do with Hollywood talent agency than we do with kind of a typical software company in kind of a typical software company in kind of a typical software company in terms of our approach to to looking at terms of our approach to to looking at terms of our approach to to looking at humans and this like first principled humans and this like first principled humans and this like first principled approach to the individual and how do approach to the individual and how do approach to the individual and how do you grow this deep resistance to a cargo you grow this deep resistance to a cargo you grow this deep resistance to a cargo cultlike process in every manner or cultlike process in every manner or cultlike process in every manner or fashion that kind of corrods all the fashion that kind of corrods all the fashion that kind of corrods all the things that actually create value. And I things that actually create value. And I things that actually create value. And I think that's important because if you think that's important because if you think that's important because if you drive that to the extreme, you actually drive that to the extreme, you actually drive that to the extreme, you actually get something that looks more like the get something that looks more like the get something that looks more like the Soviet Union. And on the other end of Soviet Union. And on the other end of Soviet Union. And on the other end of this, how do you maximize the potential this, how do you maximize the potential this, how do you maximize the potential of the people in front of you and you're of the people in front of you and you're of the people in front of you and you're advocating for their growth and their advocating for their growth and their advocating for their growth and their ability? Um, which also involves a lot ability? Um, which also involves a lot ability? Um, which also involves a lot of um you have to have a structural of um you have to have a structural of um you have to have a structural personality where you're not threatened personality where you're not threatened personality where you're not threatened by other people's successes. You by other people's successes. You by other people's successes. You actually relish in the other people's actually relish in the other people's actually relish in the other people's successes. And that's the parallel successes. And that's the parallel successes. And that's the parallel between Alex and my father. If I was between Alex and my father. If I was between Alex and my father. If I was running an organization where my key running an organization where my key running an organization where my key goal was to unlock talent in in the way goal was to unlock talent in in the way goal was to unlock talent in in the way you just described, how does he how do you just described, how does he how do you just described, how does he how do you and he do that? Like how what's the you and he do that? Like how what's the you and he do that? Like how what's the practice of unlocking talent? practice of unlocking talent? practice of unlocking talent? >> Maybe we could just start with the >> Maybe we could just start with the >> Maybe we could just start with the precept of like how how you think about precept of like how how you think about precept of like how how you think about the talent to begin with. So the talent to begin with. So the talent to begin with. So really talented people are highly really talented people are highly really talented people are highly uneven. Uh you know they're very good at uneven. Uh you know they're very good at uneven. Uh you know they're very good at some things, they're okay at another set some things, they're okay at another set some things, they're okay at another set of things and they're really bad at some of things and they're really bad at some of things and they're really bad at some other set of things. And and usually the other set of things. And and usually the other set of things. And and usually the trick is where are they in their own trick is where are they in their own trick is where are they in their own journey of understanding what those journey of understanding what those journey of understanding what those things are? And particularly for high things are? And particularly for high things are? And particularly for high high achieving people when they're high achieving people when they're high achieving people when they're young, they misattribute what their young, they misattribute what their young, they misattribute what their superpower is. They think there's this superpower is. They think there's this superpower is. They think there's this thing they do that requires a fair thing they do that requires a fair thing they do that requires a fair amount of effort and therefore they get amount of effort and therefore they get amount of effort and therefore they get a dopamine hit when they succeed. It's a dopamine hit when they succeed. It's a dopamine hit when they succeed. It's probably something they're not even bad probably something they're not even bad probably something they're not even bad at. They're just okay at. Superpowers at. They're just okay at. Superpowers at. They're just okay at. Superpowers are effortless and therefore they're in are effortless and therefore they're in are effortless and therefore they're in some sense it's almost like not even some sense it's almost like not even some sense it's almost like not even rewarding to exercise your superpower. rewarding to exercise your superpower. rewarding to exercise your superpower. My analogy for this is it Superman could My analogy for this is it Superman could My analogy for this is it Superman could fly. He could see through walls. But fly. He could see through walls. But fly. He could see through walls. But that wasn't some sort of arduous thing that wasn't some sort of arduous thing that wasn't some sort of arduous thing for him to do. It's just something he for him to do. It's just something he for him to do. It's just something he could do. And that's usually something could do. And that's usually something could do. And that's usually something you learn comparatively. Like you're you learn comparatively. Like you're you learn comparatively. Like you're like, "Oh, this thing that's like lizard like, "Oh, this thing that's like lizard like, "Oh, this thing that's like lizard brain effortless almost thoughtless for brain effortless almost thoughtless for brain effortless almost thoughtless for me other people who are really smart me other people who are really smart me other people who are really smart can't seem to do or I do just way can't seem to do or I do just way can't seem to do or I do just way better." And embracing that is the first better." And embracing that is the first better." And embracing that is the first step. And then rec and helping them step. And then rec and helping them step. And then rec and helping them understand like, hey, all of your understand like, hey, all of your understand like, hey, all of your contributions to the world are going to contributions to the world are going to contributions to the world are going to come from your superpower. like come from your superpower. like come from your superpower. like everything else is basically a waste of everything else is basically a waste of everything else is basically a waste of time. So how do you figure out how to time. So how do you figure out how to time. So how do you figure out how to get into that configuration? So there's get into that configuration? So there's get into that configuration? So there's there's some releasing of ego around there's some releasing of ego around there's some releasing of ego around that as well is understanding that as well is understanding that as well is understanding that okay like this is what I need to that okay like this is what I need to that okay like this is what I need to focus on. The other part of this is focus on. The other part of this is focus on. The other part of this is kryptonite. You know there are some set kryptonite. You know there are some set kryptonite. You know there are some set of weaknesses you have that aren't just of weaknesses you have that aren't just of weaknesses you have that aren't just like hey I'm not like I'm kind of like hey I'm not like I'm kind of like hey I'm not like I'm kind of average or I'm maybe a standard de below average or I'm maybe a standard de below average or I'm maybe a standard de below average. It's like you're like six deves average. It's like you're like six deves average. It's like you're like six deves below average here. It's not like below average here. It's not like below average here. It's not like something you can work on. The only something you can work on. The only something you can work on. The only strategy for Superman around kryptonite strategy for Superman around kryptonite strategy for Superman around kryptonite was to avoid it. Yeah. And so h can you was to avoid it. Yeah. And so h can you was to avoid it. Yeah. And so h can you can you be okay with that? Like as the can you be okay with that? Like as the can you be okay with that? Like as the as the artist, what is your process of as the artist, what is your process of as the artist, what is your process of accepting that? And how do we help you accepting that? And how do we help you accepting that? And how do we help you accept that? How we how do we help you accept that? How we how do we help you accept that? How we how do we help you understand that actually at the point of understand that actually at the point of understand that actually at the point of acceptance, you become more valuable? acceptance, you become more valuable? acceptance, you become more valuable? And um and we're going to be able to And um and we're going to be able to And um and we're going to be able to unleash you further to be able to do unleash you further to be able to do unleash you further to be able to do things. And then you have to create an things. And then you have to create an things. And then you have to create an environment that supports them through environment that supports them through environment that supports them through that because the discovery of kryptonite that because the discovery of kryptonite that because the discovery of kryptonite usually involves you being exposed to usually involves you being exposed to usually involves you being exposed to it. You're going to make some sort of it. You're going to make some sort of it. You're going to make some sort of really bad mistake that probably will really bad mistake that probably will really bad mistake that probably will have real consequences. Hopefully you have real consequences. Hopefully you have real consequences. Hopefully you learn from that mistake. Um, and you learn from that mistake. Um, and you learn from that mistake. Um, and you know, it may take more than one time to know, it may take more than one time to know, it may take more than one time to get there, but you don't want to be you get there, but you don't want to be you get there, but you don't want to be you don't want to create a culture which is don't want to create a culture which is don't want to create a culture which is like, you [ __ ] this up, I gotta fire like, you [ __ ] this up, I gotta fire like, you [ __ ] this up, I gotta fire you. Right. It's like, oh, I'm I'm so you. Right. It's like, oh, I'm I'm so you. Right. It's like, oh, I'm I'm so glad you learned that this is not what glad you learned that this is not what glad you learned that this is not what you [ __ ] this up. you [ __ ] this up. you [ __ ] this up. >> Yeah. Exactly. >> Yeah. Exactly. >> Yeah. Exactly. >> And and that I think was I I remember >> And and that I think was I I remember >> And and that I think was I I remember doing something that I really screwed up doing something that I really screwed up doing something that I really screwed up once that had consequences for the once that had consequences for the once that had consequences for the company. And I sheepishly went into Alex company. And I sheepishly went into Alex company. And I sheepishly went into Alex and was just completely honest. And I and was just completely honest. And I and was just completely honest. And I didn't I didn't realize at the time didn't I didn't realize at the time didn't I didn't realize at the time there was no grand strategy behind this there was no grand strategy behind this there was no grand strategy behind this other than my commitment to just always other than my commitment to just always other than my commitment to just always being honest. He was very appreciative. being honest. He was very appreciative. being honest. He was very appreciative. He was also in pain as he internalized He was also in pain as he internalized He was also in pain as he internalized what this was going to mean. But you what this was going to mean. But you what this was going to mean. But you know he valued the fact that I wouldn't know he valued the fact that I wouldn't know he valued the fact that I wouldn't try to hide it. And I took away from try to hide it. And I took away from try to hide it. And I took away from that how important that environment was that how important that environment was that how important that environment was going to be and how do I how do I scale going to be and how do I how do I scale going to be and how do I how do I scale that through the organization. that through the organization. that through the organization. >> What do you think your superpower is? >> What do you think your superpower is? >> What do you think your superpower is? I think there's actually kind of a I think there's actually kind of a I think there's actually kind of a narrow sliver if you thought about in narrow sliver if you thought about in narrow sliver if you thought about in the pounder context the intersection of the pounder context the intersection of the pounder context the intersection of forward deployed engineering and forward deployed engineering and forward deployed engineering and product. There's there's an there's a product. There's there's an there's a product. There's there's an there's a there's like an interface there. It's there's like an interface there. It's there's like an interface there. It's like one inch on both sides of that like one inch on both sides of that like one inch on both sides of that interface like owning that almost as a interface like owning that almost as a interface like owning that almost as a dictator. That's my superpower. I'm dictator. That's my superpower. I'm dictator. That's my superpower. I'm going to come back to forward deployed going to come back to forward deployed going to come back to forward deployed engineering, but I want to ask one or engineering, but I want to ask one or engineering, but I want to ask one or two more questions about the creation of two more questions about the creation of two more questions about the creation of an environment for the discovery of an environment for the discovery of an environment for the discovery of superpower in kryptonite and like so superpower in kryptonite and like so superpower in kryptonite and like so doing doing one's best work and doing doing one's best work and doing doing one's best work and unlocking the talent. I heard a story unlocking the talent. I heard a story unlocking the talent. I heard a story once which maybe I wasn't supposed to once which maybe I wasn't supposed to once which maybe I wasn't supposed to hear so I won't I won't say what the hear so I won't I won't say what the hear so I won't I won't say what the exact story was or who the person was at exact story was or who the person was at exact story was or who the person was at Palunteer but this person joined Palunteer but this person joined Palunteer but this person joined Palunteer and was very quickly given an Palunteer and was very quickly given an Palunteer and was very quickly given an extraordinarily difficult project uh extraordinarily difficult project uh extraordinarily difficult project uh around which this person had no relevant around which this person had no relevant around which this person had no relevant experience and was given relatively experience and was given relatively experience and was given relatively limited resources to solve a problem limited resources to solve a problem limited resources to solve a problem which was truly global in scale meaning which was truly global in scale meaning which was truly global in scale meaning the impact if if this person didn't the impact if if this person didn't the impact if if this person didn't solve the problem would have been bad solve the problem would have been bad solve the problem would have been bad and they described it as the most and they described it as the most and they described it as the most formative and an and important formative and an and important formative and an and important profession and most stressful profession and most stressful profession and most stressful professional experience that they had professional experience that they had professional experience that they had had. And on the one hand, I loved had. And on the one hand, I loved had. And on the one hand, I loved hearing this story cuz wow, how you can hearing this story cuz wow, how you can hearing this story cuz wow, how you can learn so much when there's high stakes learn so much when there's high stakes learn so much when there's high stakes and lots of autonomy. But it also struck and lots of autonomy. But it also struck and lots of autonomy. But it also struck me as quite scary that someone with this me as quite scary that someone with this me as quite scary that someone with this person's experience was given this uh person's experience was given this uh person's experience was given this uh this high stakes opportunity this high stakes opportunity this high stakes opportunity responsibility. responsibility. responsibility. And I'm sure that happens like all the And I'm sure that happens like all the And I'm sure that happens like all the time in Palunteer. So some of it seems time in Palunteer. So some of it seems time in Palunteer. So some of it seems like letting like kind of going straight like letting like kind of going straight like letting like kind of going straight into the deep end is a key part of this into the deep end is a key part of this into the deep end is a key part of this in such a high stakes business with in such a high stakes business with in such a high stakes business with militaries and governments and people's militaries and governments and people's militaries and governments and people's lives and things. How how do you balance lives and things. How how do you balance lives and things. How how do you balance how much leash to give someone like how much leash to give someone like how much leash to give someone like that? that? that? >> Let me start with um an analogy. How did >> Let me start with um an analogy. How did >> Let me start with um an analogy. How did Bruce Banner become the Incredible Hulk? Bruce Banner become the Incredible Hulk? Bruce Banner become the Incredible Hulk? It wasn't like progressive overload. It wasn't like progressive overload. It wasn't like progressive overload. It's not like he lifted a little bit It's not like he lifted a little bit It's not like he lifted a little bit more weight every week, right? It was a more weight every week, right? It was a more weight every week, right? It was a near fatal dose of gamma rays. 50% near fatal dose of gamma rays. 50% near fatal dose of gamma rays. 50% chance he died, 50% chance he turns into chance he died, 50% chance he turns into chance he died, 50% chance he turns into the big green monster. And there is the big green monster. And there is the big green monster. And there is there's absolutely an element where there's absolutely an element where there's absolutely an element where we're taking people and just irdiating we're taking people and just irdiating we're taking people and just irdiating them. Perspectively, you're not sure if them. Perspectively, you're not sure if them. Perspectively, you're not sure if they're going to come out the other end, they're going to come out the other end, they're going to come out the other end, but you have some belief that they have but you have some belief that they have but you have some belief that they have the raw talent and potential. And then the raw talent and potential. And then the raw talent and potential. And then you want to create an environment that you want to create an environment that you want to create an environment that has enough transparency and flow of has enough transparency and flow of has enough transparency and flow of information and exhaust that if you see information and exhaust that if you see information and exhaust that if you see that this thing is really going off the that this thing is really going off the that this thing is really going off the rails with without them having to seek rails with without them having to seek rails with without them having to seek you out, you're able to kind of push in you out, you're able to kind of push in you out, you're able to kind of push in and help them. And a lot of environments and help them. And a lot of environments and help them. And a lot of environments don't have that by default actually. don't have that by default actually. don't have that by default actually. Like you would have to like manage them. Like you would have to like manage them. Like you would have to like manage them. You have them do reports or check-ins or You have them do reports or check-ins or You have them do reports or check-ins or whatever. You got to create an whatever. You got to create an whatever. You got to create an environment where it's okay to ask for environment where it's okay to ask for environment where it's okay to ask for help. The reason this model is really help. The reason this model is really help. The reason this model is really valuable is that I think the alternative valuable is that I think the alternative valuable is that I think the alternative model, you judge it by the model, you judge it by the model, you judge it by the counterfactual. the alternative model counterfactual. the alternative model counterfactual. the alternative model doesn't actually work. So this sort of doesn't actually work. So this sort of doesn't actually work. So this sort of structured career ladder with structured career ladder with structured career ladder with progressions, it's perfectly designed to progressions, it's perfectly designed to progressions, it's perfectly designed to make you feel comfortable that you are make you feel comfortable that you are make you feel comfortable that you are growing like it gives you some belief growing like it gives you some belief growing like it gives you some belief that there's a linear path to follow and that there's a linear path to follow and that there's a linear path to follow and you'll learn these things, but actually you'll learn these things, but actually you'll learn these things, but actually it's all fake. Um on the other hand, so it's all fake. Um on the other hand, so it's all fake. Um on the other hand, so if you're willing to just suspend if you're willing to just suspend if you're willing to just suspend disbelief, throw yourself off the deep disbelief, throw yourself off the deep disbelief, throw yourself off the deep end, how do you get, you know, your the end, how do you get, you know, your the end, how do you get, you know, your the maximum rate of learning will be maximum rate of learning will be maximum rate of learning will be coincident with your maximum ability to coincident with your maximum ability to coincident with your maximum ability to tolerate pain? Uh, so now you're in over tolerate pain? Uh, so now you're in over tolerate pain? Uh, so now you're in over your head. You're working on a problem your head. You're working on a problem your head. You're working on a problem you don't even know. This is the you don't even know. This is the you don't even know. This is the environment that you're going to learn environment that you're going to learn environment that you're going to learn at the fastest possible rate. You're at the fastest possible rate. You're at the fastest possible rate. You're only limited by your motivation and only limited by your motivation and only limited by your motivation and ability to endure through the discomfort ability to endure through the discomfort ability to endure through the discomfort of getting there. of getting there. of getting there. Uh, Uh, Uh, then you will find that if you look back then you will find that if you look back then you will find that if you look back retrospectively, you're like, "Holy retrospectively, you're like, "Holy retrospectively, you're like, "Holy [ __ ] I grew in all these ways. I [ __ ] I grew in all these ways. I [ __ ] I grew in all these ways. I learned all these things, none of which learned all these things, none of which learned all these things, none of which you could have predicted, specifically you could have predicted, specifically you could have predicted, specifically Xanti." And then if you just are willing Xanti." And then if you just are willing Xanti." And then if you just are willing to do that serially, just keep jumping to do that serially, just keep jumping to do that serially, just keep jumping off the deep end, go after problems off the deep end, go after problems off the deep end, go after problems you're frankly not qualified to go you're frankly not qualified to go you're frankly not qualified to go after, but you, you know, there is some after, but you, you know, there is some after, but you, you know, there is some belief you have the raw potential to do, belief you have the raw potential to do, belief you have the raw potential to do, like you turn into a superhero. I think like you turn into a superhero. I think like you turn into a superhero. I think that's actually why Pounder is a founder that's actually why Pounder is a founder that's actually why Pounder is a founder factory. factory. factory. >> Did you have your own gammaray moment? >> Did you have your own gammaray moment? >> Did you have your own gammaray moment? Like was there an an original moment Like was there an an original moment Like was there an an original moment like that for you where you discovered like that for you where you discovered like that for you where you discovered your own potential? your own potential? your own potential? >> The article talks about the the >> The article talks about the the >> The article talks about the the deployment at the KOIC. I think that was deployment at the KOIC. I think that was deployment at the KOIC. I think that was that was a seminal one where it was it that was a seminal one where it was it that was a seminal one where it was it was I was leading the deployment. It was was I was leading the deployment. It was was I was leading the deployment. It was all on me and it was never obvious until all on me and it was never obvious until all on me and it was never obvious until basically the last second whether it was basically the last second whether it was basically the last second whether it was going to work or not. And it it allowed going to work or not. And it it allowed going to work or not. And it it allowed me to learn a lot of the lessons along me to learn a lot of the lessons along me to learn a lot of the lessons along the way which is really where I the way which is really where I the way which is really where I internalized that like oh success looks internalized that like oh success looks internalized that like oh success looks like a lot of pain and that that like a lot of pain and that that like a lot of pain and that that instinct to figure out how to reduce the instinct to figure out how to reduce the instinct to figure out how to reduce the pain like how do I do this the next time pain like how do I do this the next time pain like how do I do this the next time with less pain is exactly the wrong with less pain is exactly the wrong with less pain is exactly the wrong instinct. If you were giving a instinct. If you were giving a instinct. If you were giving a commencement speech to a group of people commencement speech to a group of people commencement speech to a group of people that that heard this conversation, how that that heard this conversation, how that that heard this conversation, how would you urge people to seek that out? would you urge people to seek that out? would you urge people to seek that out? Like if someone is pregamma exposure and Like if someone is pregamma exposure and Like if someone is pregamma exposure and they're interested in that sort of test they're interested in that sort of test they're interested in that sort of test for themselves, how can people expose for themselves, how can people expose for themselves, how can people expose themselves to to that test? themselves to to that test? themselves to to that test? >> I think this is the conspiracy of of the >> I think this is the conspiracy of of the >> I think this is the conspiracy of of the people around you who give you that people around you who give you that people around you who give you that chance. I don't know why Kevin Hartz chance. I don't know why Kevin Hartz chance. I don't know why Kevin Hartz hired me as some, you know, Stanford hired me as some, you know, Stanford hired me as some, you know, Stanford grad student coming to talk to him, but grad student coming to talk to him, but grad student coming to talk to him, but the fact that he took the bet and just the fact that he took the bet and just the fact that he took the bet and just threw me out there, like that was the threw me out there, like that was the threw me out there, like that was the first time I got to jump off the deep first time I got to jump off the deep first time I got to jump off the deep end in many ways. And I think so I I end in many ways. And I think so I I end in many ways. And I think so I I really think the how can you find it? really think the how can you find it? really think the how can you find it? You're you're assessing the people who You're you're assessing the people who You're you're assessing the people who are hiring you as much as they're are hiring you as much as they're are hiring you as much as they're assessing you. And it's like, is this an assessing you. And it's like, is this an assessing you. And it's like, is this an environment that I think is going to bet environment that I think is going to bet environment that I think is going to bet on me or is this an environment that on me or is this an environment that on me or is this an environment that wants me to be a vecow, you know, and wants me to be a vecow, you know, and wants me to be a vecow, you know, and are they going to be able to tolerate my are they going to be able to tolerate my are they going to be able to tolerate my eccentricities and and um or are they eccentricities and and um or are they eccentricities and and um or are they going to try to squash that? going to try to squash that? going to try to squash that? >> How do you know someone's worth betting >> How do you know someone's worth betting >> How do you know someone's worth betting on? Like the other side of that on? Like the other side of that on? Like the other side of that equation, equation, equation, new unproven talent. How do you know? new unproven talent. How do you know? new unproven talent. How do you know? >> At some point, it becomes like lizard >> At some point, it becomes like lizard >> At some point, it becomes like lizard brain. You get enough reps in doing it. brain. You get enough reps in doing it. brain. You get enough reps in doing it. But I think early on I think the early But I think early on I think the early But I think early on I think the early indicators would be like first indicators would be like first indicators would be like first derivative proof of some sort of suie derivative proof of some sort of suie derivative proof of some sort of suie generous like did they create anything generous like did they create anything generous like did they create anything from 0 to one that you know and then from 0 to one that you know and then from 0 to one that you know and then expression of agency and initiative expression of agency and initiative expression of agency and initiative here's the simplest way I'd say it if I here's the simplest way I'd say it if I here's the simplest way I'd say it if I give this person an inch can they turn give this person an inch can they turn give this person an inch can they turn it into a mile and the worst sort of bet it into a mile and the worst sort of bet it into a mile and the worst sort of bet to make is I gave this person a mile and to make is I gave this person a mile and to make is I gave this person a mile and somehow they turned into an inch somehow they turned into an inch somehow they turned into an inch >> it's an incredibly powerful idea and it >> it's an incredibly powerful idea and it >> it's an incredibly powerful idea and it seems like the culture palunteer I mean seems like the culture palunteer I mean seems like the culture palunteer I mean obviously there's tons of founders that obviously there's tons of founders that obviously there's tons of founders that have come out of this that have like have come out of this that have like have come out of this that have like mega agency. If you think about mega agency. If you think about mega agency. If you think about Palunteer's future for the next 10 Palunteer's future for the next 10 Palunteer's future for the next 10 years, now 20 years in or 19 years in, years, now 20 years in or 19 years in, years, now 20 years in or 19 years in, what do you hope changes most in the what do you hope changes most in the what do you hope changes most in the next 10? Like obviously it's now a huge next 10? Like obviously it's now a huge next 10? Like obviously it's now a huge company. It's one of the bigger, you company. It's one of the bigger, you company. It's one of the bigger, you know, bigger companies by market cap in know, bigger companies by market cap in know, bigger companies by market cap in the country and in the world. Uh doing the country and in the world. Uh doing the country and in the world. Uh doing lots of really interesting work with lots of really interesting work with lots of really interesting work with lots of interesting customers, but lots of interesting customers, but lots of interesting customers, but generally speaking, like what what are generally speaking, like what what are generally speaking, like what what are your hopes for it over the next 5 to 10 your hopes for it over the next 5 to 10 your hopes for it over the next 5 to 10 years? years? years? >> I think culturally because like all >> I think culturally because like all >> I think culturally because like all value creation is downstream of the value creation is downstream of the value creation is downstream of the culture. It's like continuing to be an culture. It's like continuing to be an culture. It's like continuing to be an environment where a new person can come environment where a new person can come environment where a new person can come in and just have huge responsibility, be in and just have huge responsibility, be in and just have huge responsibility, be in charge of people who've been here 10 in charge of people who've been here 10 in charge of people who've been here 10 years or not. It's like that that the years or not. It's like that that the years or not. It's like that that the that the org structure, I call it a that the org structure, I call it a that the org structure, I call it a quantum org structure. I don't think a quantum org structure. I don't think a quantum org structure. I don't think a flat org structure is optimal. I think flat org structure is optimal. I think flat org structure is optimal. I think that that doesn't actually work. I think that that doesn't actually work. I think that that doesn't actually work. I think what you want is an org structure that what you want is an org structure that what you want is an org structure that can crystallize is the right structure can crystallize is the right structure can crystallize is the right structure to solve the problem as it exists today to solve the problem as it exists today to solve the problem as it exists today and is able to reform as the problem and is able to reform as the problem and is able to reform as the problem manipulates tomorrow. And you can kind manipulates tomorrow. And you can kind manipulates tomorrow. And you can kind of see the the pathology of big of see the the pathology of big of see the the pathology of big companies as they go through some sort companies as they go through some sort companies as they go through some sort of big reorg every five years. What even of big reorg every five years. What even of big reorg every five years. What even if you just steel man it probably most if you just steel man it probably most if you just steel man it probably most of them are wrong even at inception. But of them are wrong even at inception. But of them are wrong even at inception. But if you just steal man and say hey they if you just steal man and say hey they if you just steal man and say hey they just reorg this is the right org just reorg this is the right org just reorg this is the right org structure for this company today. Every structure for this company today. Every structure for this company today. Every day the entropy is against them and day the entropy is against them and day the entropy is against them and every day it's slightly more wrong than every day it's slightly more wrong than every day it's slightly more wrong than it was before. And if if you're so it was before. And if if you're so it was before. And if if you're so oified and committed to your structure oified and committed to your structure oified and committed to your structure that you have to wait until it's totally that you have to wait until it's totally that you have to wait until it's totally broken before you reorganize it again broken before you reorganize it again broken before you reorganize it again that's a fundamental weakness. So that that's a fundamental weakness. So that that's a fundamental weakness. So that plasticity and how your your commitment plasticity and how your your commitment plasticity and how your your commitment to working backwards from the problems to working backwards from the problems to working backwards from the problems that's that I hope that's that is how we that's that I hope that's that is how we that's that I hope that's that is how we generate value and that has to be generate value and that has to be generate value and that has to be consistent and I think if we can protect consistent and I think if we can protect consistent and I think if we can protect that and and engender that you know that and and engender that you know that and and engender that you know promote that promulgate that culture in promote that promulgate that culture in promote that promulgate that culture in the future generations like we're going the future generations like we're going the future generations like we're going to keep winning. to keep winning. to keep winning. >> What critique of Palunteer do you take >> What critique of Palunteer do you take >> What critique of Palunteer do you take the most seriously? So when when you the most seriously? So when when you the most seriously? So when when you have a structure like this, you don't have a structure like this, you don't have a structure like this, you don't get to spend nearly as much time with get to spend nearly as much time with get to spend nearly as much time with people as you'd want. And so people as you'd want. And so people as you'd want. And so the rate of in radiation is very uh the rate of in radiation is very uh the rate of in radiation is very uh heterogeneous. There's some sort of like heterogeneous. There's some sort of like heterogeneous. There's some sort of like biodal distribution for how long do biodal distribution for how long do biodal distribution for how long do people stay at Palanteer? Like the people stay at Palanteer? Like the people stay at Palanteer? Like the probability that you'll stay for like a probability that you'll stay for like a probability that you'll stay for like a decade plus if you've stayed three years decade plus if you've stayed three years decade plus if you've stayed three years is incredibly high. But, you know, is incredibly high. But, you know, is incredibly high. But, you know, roughly around the three-year mark, roughly around the three-year mark, roughly around the three-year mark, everyone faces this crucible where they everyone faces this crucible where they everyone faces this crucible where they look around and they say like, "This look around and they say like, "This look around and they say like, "This place is so [ __ ] up and crazy and and place is so [ __ ] up and crazy and and place is so [ __ ] up and crazy and and they have to understand like, oh, but they have to understand like, oh, but they have to understand like, oh, but that's the feature of it." And then that's the feature of it." And then that's the feature of it." And then they'll stay they'll stay they'll stay >> sign up for it or not, right? >> sign up for it or not, right? >> sign up for it or not, right? >> Or they'll say, "This is the bug of it >> Or they'll say, "This is the bug of it >> Or they'll say, "This is the bug of it and I got to get out of here and like and I got to get out of here and like and I got to get out of here and like this is this is not, you know, it's not this is this is not, you know, it's not this is this is not, you know, it's not going to work." Um, and going to work." Um, and going to work." Um, and the the critique I take most seriously the the critique I take most seriously the the critique I take most seriously because I I think with a little bit of because I I think with a little bit of because I I think with a little bit of help, a lot more people can make that help, a lot more people can make that help, a lot more people can make that hump. And that's the future of the hump. And that's the future of the hump. And that's the future of the business. Those people, business. Those people, business. Those people, >> we kind of have you to blame for how >> we kind of have you to blame for how >> we kind of have you to blame for how many freaking pitches we have to take many freaking pitches we have to take many freaking pitches we have to take that involve some forward deployed that involve some forward deployed that involve some forward deployed something or other in a company these something or other in a company these something or other in a company these days. You were the one that really days. You were the one that really days. You were the one that really pioneered the success of this model at pioneered the success of this model at pioneered the success of this model at Palunteer. Like everyone is saying it Palunteer. Like everyone is saying it Palunteer. Like everyone is saying it now that every company has to have now that every company has to have now that every company has to have forward deployed engineers or forward forward deployed engineers or forward forward deployed engineers or forward deployed so and so to be successful. deployed so and so to be successful. deployed so and so to be successful. Obviously I think that's not true for Obviously I think that's not true for Obviously I think that's not true for every company. It's true in in every company. It's true in in every company. It's true in in Palunteer's case for sure. Can you tell Palunteer's case for sure. Can you tell Palunteer's case for sure. Can you tell us the story of what this term means us the story of what this term means us the story of what this term means where it came from and and why it's where it came from and and why it's where it came from and and why it's powerful? We could start by maybe powerful? We could start by maybe powerful? We could start by maybe thinking about my critique of the thinking about my critique of the thinking about my critique of the conventional software industrial complex conventional software industrial complex conventional software industrial complex which is that you know you're sitting which is that you know you're sitting which is that you know you're sitting let's just say in Palo Alto and you're let's just say in Palo Alto and you're let's just say in Palo Alto and you're building this piece of software and your building this piece of software and your building this piece of software and your essential feedback loop on is this essential feedback loop on is this essential feedback loop on is this software valuable is can I sell it and software valuable is can I sell it and software valuable is can I sell it and if someone's willing to pay for it it if someone's willing to pay for it it if someone's willing to pay for it it must be valuable that's an okay feedback must be valuable that's an okay feedback must be valuable that's an okay feedback loop there's a stronger feedback loop loop there's a stronger feedback loop loop there's a stronger feedback loop which is is the software valuable did it which is is the software valuable did it which is is the software valuable did it deliver the outcome the only way you can deliver the outcome the only way you can deliver the outcome the only way you can assess that is actually in the field assess that is actually in the field assess that is actually in the field with the end user on the factory floor with the end user on the factory floor with the end user on the factory floor in the foxhole. in the foxhole. in the foxhole. So in our case, it wasn't going to be So in our case, it wasn't going to be So in our case, it wasn't going to be enough as I, you know, I thought you enough as I, you know, I thought you enough as I, you know, I thought you have this weird division between the IT have this weird division between the IT have this weird division between the IT buyer and the operator. The validation buyer and the operator. The validation buyer and the operator. The validation is going to come from the operator. So is going to come from the operator. So is going to come from the operator. So the the idea was really almost to like the the idea was really almost to like the the idea was really almost to like build software through back propagation. build software through back propagation. build software through back propagation. Hey, how do you go to the person who has Hey, how do you go to the person who has Hey, how do you go to the person who has the problem? You're showing up with your the problem? You're showing up with your the problem? You're showing up with your best thesis of what you've built in the best thesis of what you've built in the best thesis of what you've built in the metaphorical powto, but then you are not metaphorical powto, but then you are not metaphorical powto, but then you are not just sending a sales engineer out there just sending a sales engineer out there just sending a sales engineer out there whose job is to try to like ring up the whose job is to try to like ring up the whose job is to try to like ring up the sale. You're sending someone out there sale. You're sending someone out there sale. You're sending someone out there who is obsessed with whether it's going who is obsessed with whether it's going who is obsessed with whether it's going to generate an impact in the world or to generate an impact in the world or to generate an impact in the world or not and is willing to continuously solve not and is willing to continuously solve not and is willing to continuously solve backward and is technical enough to backward and is technical enough to backward and is technical enough to understand the full stack. How would we understand the full stack. How would we understand the full stack. How would we take the specific and learn how to take the specific and learn how to take the specific and learn how to generalize it over time in terms of the generalize it over time in terms of the generalize it over time in terms of the product? Uh one way of thinking about product? Uh one way of thinking about product? Uh one way of thinking about this is there really are two types of this is there really are two types of this is there really are two types of engineers. There are people who know how engineers. There are people who know how engineers. There are people who know how to build the right thing and there are to build the right thing and there are to build the right thing and there are people who know how to build it the people who know how to build it the people who know how to build it the right way. And uh they're kind of right way. And uh they're kind of right way. And uh they're kind of dopamine hits comes out of different dopamine hits comes out of different dopamine hits comes out of different things, right? Like the people who know things, right? Like the people who know things, right? Like the people who know how to build the right thing, they're how to build the right thing, they're how to build the right thing, they're more like maggyver, you know, it like more like maggyver, you know, it like more like maggyver, you know, it like their high in life is like I solved the their high in life is like I solved the their high in life is like I solved the problem. In their mind, solving the problem. In their mind, solving the problem. In their mind, solving the right problem is 80% of the work. On the right problem is 80% of the work. On the right problem is 80% of the work. On the other end, you have engineers who are other end, you have engineers who are other end, you have engineers who are more like they're like they're like more like they're like they're like more like they're like they're like artists in the traditional sense. Like, artists in the traditional sense. Like, artists in the traditional sense. Like, don't you see how beautiful the thing I don't you see how beautiful the thing I don't you see how beautiful the thing I built is? And that's what the built is? And that's what the built is? And that's what the architectural elegance, the scalability architectural elegance, the scalability architectural elegance, the scalability of it. That's what gives them the high. of it. That's what gives them the high. of it. That's what gives them the high. Never mind that doesn't solve a problem Never mind that doesn't solve a problem Never mind that doesn't solve a problem anyone cares about. Don't you know it's anyone cares about. Don't you know it's anyone cares about. Don't you know it's art on its own. It should be art on its own. It should be art on its own. It should be appreciated. And I think about this like appreciated. And I think about this like appreciated. And I think about this like vector math. So the four deployed vector math. So the four deployed vector math. So the four deployed engineers skew towards this hacker engineers skew towards this hacker engineers skew towards this hacker mentality. mentality. mentality. The product engineers skew towards this The product engineers skew towards this The product engineers skew towards this artist mentality. and you're trying you artist mentality. and you're trying you artist mentality. and you're trying you have an unstable equilibrium where have an unstable equilibrium where have an unstable equilibrium where you're trying to align these vectors in you're trying to align these vectors in you're trying to align these vectors in a way that you're going to go up upwind. a way that you're going to go up upwind. a way that you're going to go up upwind. If either side dominates, you don't If either side dominates, you don't If either side dominates, you don't really have a business. And that's why really have a business. And that's why really have a business. And that's why that that seam between them, you that that seam between them, you that that seam between them, you actually kind of need a a dictator-l actually kind of need a a dictator-l actually kind of need a a dictator-l like figure to manage and decide. And like figure to manage and decide. And like figure to manage and decide. And many of the outcomes like particularly I many of the outcomes like particularly I many of the outcomes like particularly I think this model is super valuable think this model is super valuable think this model is super valuable when you think about your customers as when you think about your customers as when you think about your customers as existing as some sort of power law in existing as some sort of power law in existing as some sort of power law in terms of how useful the next marginal terms of how useful the next marginal terms of how useful the next marginal thing they're going to be asking for is thing they're going to be asking for is thing they're going to be asking for is in terms of the overall development of in terms of the overall development of in terms of the overall development of the product. So because if it's a the product. So because if it's a the product. So because if it's a Gaussian you should just like survey all Gaussian you should just like survey all Gaussian you should just like survey all your customers and average it out and your customers and average it out and your customers and average it out and figure out what to build. That's like a figure out what to build. That's like a figure out what to build. That's like a traditional product development process. traditional product development process. traditional product development process. If on the other hand you kind of think If on the other hand you kind of think If on the other hand you kind of think you know some percentage of my customers you know some percentage of my customers you know some percentage of my customers are living in the future. Yes, only they are living in the future. Yes, only they are living in the future. Yes, only they or only a handful of people have this or only a handful of people have this or only a handful of people have this problem today, but I can assess that problem today, but I can assess that problem today, but I can assess that this is actually a really valuable thing this is actually a really valuable thing this is actually a really valuable thing to solve that no one else has solved. We to solve that no one else has solved. We to solve that no one else has solved. We should solve it now and effectively have should solve it now and effectively have should solve it now and effectively have a monopoly on the capability to do that. a monopoly on the capability to do that. a monopoly on the capability to do that. We'll be 5 years ahead of everyone else We'll be 5 years ahead of everyone else We'll be 5 years ahead of everyone else if we lean into this problem. You can if we lean into this problem. You can if we lean into this problem. You can only surface that in this sort of only surface that in this sort of only surface that in this sort of forward deployed engineering way. The forward deployed engineering way. The forward deployed engineering way. The other thing about forward deployed other thing about forward deployed other thing about forward deployed engineers that's worth saying in the tie engineers that's worth saying in the tie engineers that's worth saying in the tie sense is is the importance of secrets. sense is is the importance of secrets. sense is is the importance of secrets. You know, Peter talks about the You know, Peter talks about the You know, Peter talks about the importance of secrets. If you're going importance of secrets. If you're going importance of secrets. If you're going to do something really impactful, there to do something really impactful, there to do something really impactful, there has to be something true about the world has to be something true about the world has to be something true about the world that you believe that other people that you believe that other people that you believe that other people disagree with you on. Warp speed is born disagree with you on. Warp speed is born disagree with you on. Warp speed is born out of one of those secrets. For the out of one of those secrets. For the out of one of those secrets. For the better part of 15 years, our software better part of 15 years, our software better part of 15 years, our software has been used to make things in the has been used to make things in the has been used to make things in the world. The one thing you could not tell world. The one thing you could not tell world. The one thing you could not tell anyone before co is that their anyone before co is that their anyone before co is that their manufacturing software doesn't work. manufacturing software doesn't work. manufacturing software doesn't work. Like people would point at their ERP Like people would point at their ERP Like people would point at their ERP system and be like, "Look how great it system and be like, "Look how great it system and be like, "Look how great it is. I spent $5 billion, 10 billion doing is. I spent $5 billion, 10 billion doing is. I spent $5 billion, 10 billion doing it." But as a for deployed engineer, it." But as a for deployed engineer, it." But as a for deployed engineer, when I would go to the final assembly when I would go to the final assembly when I would go to the final assembly line on the factory floor, everyone's line on the factory floor, everyone's line on the factory floor, everyone's using Excel. So if your thing like there using Excel. So if your thing like there using Excel. So if your thing like there there's a contradiction here that no one there's a contradiction here that no one there's a contradiction here that no one is somehow forced to reconcile with, is somehow forced to reconcile with, is somehow forced to reconcile with, which is really what they're saying is which is really what they're saying is which is really what they're saying is the software is so illit. I hit the the software is so illit. I hit the the software is so illit. I hit the eject button, I pull the data out to eject button, I pull the data out to eject button, I pull the data out to Excel and I'm like hand rolling my own Excel and I'm like hand rolling my own Excel and I'm like hand rolling my own solution. That should be an obvious sign solution. That should be an obvious sign solution. That should be an obvious sign that something's not working. What are that something's not working. What are that something's not working. What are the limitations of it in the sense of the limitations of it in the sense of the limitations of it in the sense of like if you have X Y or Z you shouldn't like if you have X Y or Z you shouldn't like if you have X Y or Z you shouldn't try this model or you need this to try try this model or you need this to try try this model or you need this to try this model. One one thought would be the this model. One one thought would be the this model. One one thought would be the product needs to be expensive because it product needs to be expensive because it product needs to be expensive because it sounds like an expensive process to sounds like an expensive process to sounds like an expensive process to deploy people on site you know highly deploy people on site you know highly deploy people on site you know highly trained expensive people and so on. So trained expensive people and so on. So trained expensive people and so on. So you need to be selling a very expensive you need to be selling a very expensive you need to be selling a very expensive product but if you were giving advice product but if you were giving advice product but if you were giving advice about use or don't use this concept of about use or don't use this concept of about use or don't use this concept of forward deployed engineering in your forward deployed engineering in your forward deployed engineering in your software business how would you frame it software business how would you frame it software business how would you frame it up to other entrepreneurs? up to other entrepreneurs? up to other entrepreneurs? >> I would say this you have to believe >> I would say this you have to believe >> I would say this you have to believe that you're going to be able to capture that you're going to be able to capture that you're going to be able to capture meaningful value for the problems you're meaningful value for the problems you're meaningful value for the problems you're solving. So your pro the problems you're solving. So your pro the problems you're solving. So your pro the problems you're solving are really big and therefore solving are really big and therefore solving are really big and therefore imply there's a lot of value behind imply there's a lot of value behind imply there's a lot of value behind them. Uh and if you can solve them in in them. Uh and if you can solve them in in them. Uh and if you can solve them in in a deep way, you'll be able to capture a deep way, you'll be able to capture a deep way, you'll be able to capture that. A lot of the problems we solving that. A lot of the problems we solving that. A lot of the problems we solving like to get at bat, you weren't going to like to get at bat, you weren't going to like to get at bat, you weren't going to get paid a lot up front. You were get paid a lot up front. You were get paid a lot up front. You were actually going to invest a huge amount actually going to invest a huge amount actually going to invest a huge amount into the customer to go do that. But you into the customer to go do that. But you into the customer to go do that. But you would do that because you believe that would do that because you believe that would do that because you believe that actually in the end we'll be able to actually in the end we'll be able to actually in the end we'll be able to capture the value a portion of the value capture the value a portion of the value capture the value a portion of the value we're creating. Our economics will be we're creating. Our economics will be we're creating. Our economics will be downstream of our customers economics. downstream of our customers economics. downstream of our customers economics. The other part The other part The other part is that your ambition extends beyond a is that your ambition extends beyond a is that your ambition extends beyond a linear box. You know, like we always linear box. You know, like we always linear box. You know, like we always struggled when we came into the struggled when we came into the struggled when we came into the commercial world where you had like the commercial world where you had like the commercial world where you had like the Gartners of the world and they have like Gartners of the world and they have like Gartners of the world and they have like well, you know, this is this sort of box well, you know, this is this sort of box well, you know, this is this sort of box like this is my enterprise architecture. like this is my enterprise architecture. like this is my enterprise architecture. I've broken up in all these boxes. What I've broken up in all these boxes. What I've broken up in all these boxes. What box do you fit in? The answer for us is box do you fit in? The answer for us is box do you fit in? The answer for us is like, well, we don't fit in any box. We like, well, we don't fit in any box. We like, well, we don't fit in any box. We fit in all the boxes. It's it's some fit in all the boxes. It's it's some fit in all the boxes. It's it's some sort of heterox thing. You're solving sort of heterox thing. You're solving sort of heterox thing. You're solving for all the problems in the seams. Like for all the problems in the seams. Like for all the problems in the seams. Like you're basically solving for the fact you're basically solving for the fact you're basically solving for the fact that that architecture diagram was made that that architecture diagram was made that that architecture diagram was made by some mid-level product marketing by some mid-level product marketing by some mid-level product marketing manager. It's never been used or manager. It's never been used or manager. It's never been used or validated in anger. It's never actually validated in anger. It's never actually validated in anger. It's never actually solved a problem in the real world. But solved a problem in the real world. But solved a problem in the real world. But the cargo cult of the IT buyer just the cargo cult of the IT buyer just the cargo cult of the IT buyer just keeps believing they should buy it. I keeps believing they should buy it. I keeps believing they should buy it. I think if you fit into that doing forward think if you fit into that doing forward think if you fit into that doing forward deploy engineering would be crazy. Why deploy engineering would be crazy. Why deploy engineering would be crazy. Why would you do that? You know, but if would you do that? You know, but if would you do that? You know, but if you're like us and you don't fit into you're like us and you don't fit into you're like us and you don't fit into it, you need some way of just like it, you need some way of just like it, you need some way of just like scraping and clawing to deliver enough scraping and clawing to deliver enough scraping and clawing to deliver enough value that the institution has to value that the institution has to value that the institution has to confront. But even though it's confront. But even though it's confront. But even though it's heterodox, even though it's heresy to my heterodox, even though it's heresy to my heterodox, even though it's heresy to my enterprise architecture, it works. enterprise architecture, it works. enterprise architecture, it works. >> It probably took until I read Jeremy's >> It probably took until I read Jeremy's >> It probably took until I read Jeremy's profile of you and of Palunteer that I profile of you and of Palunteer that I profile of you and of Palunteer that I really understood how Gotham and Foundry really understood how Gotham and Foundry really understood how Gotham and Foundry and and the sort of product and the and and the sort of product and the and and the sort of product and the business worked. It's interesting how business worked. It's interesting how business worked. It's interesting how Palunteer has this sort of it's somewhat Palunteer has this sort of it's somewhat Palunteer has this sort of it's somewhat inaccessible from the outside unless you inaccessible from the outside unless you inaccessible from the outside unless you read a fairly detailed description of read a fairly detailed description of read a fairly detailed description of what is literally going on in the what is literally going on in the what is literally going on in the product. And I think the early years of product. And I think the early years of product. And I think the early years of Palunteer were especially exploratory Palunteer were especially exploratory Palunteer were especially exploratory trying to figure all this out, you know, trying to figure all this out, you know, trying to figure all this out, you know, with with with all your efforts with with with with all your efforts with with with with all your efforts with Alex and the team. Could you just like Alex and the team. Could you just like Alex and the team. Could you just like explain what Palunteer is? It's like explain what Palunteer is? It's like explain what Palunteer is? It's like such a basic stupid question, but again, such a basic stupid question, but again, such a basic stupid question, but again, until I read like a detailed account, I until I read like a detailed account, I until I read like a detailed account, I actually probably couldn't have done so. actually probably couldn't have done so. actually probably couldn't have done so. And so I'd really be curious how you And so I'd really be curious how you And so I'd really be curious how you like to frame it or explain it. like to frame it or explain it. like to frame it or explain it. >> This is actually like the hardest >> This is actually like the hardest >> This is actually like the hardest question in the world for me. Um, question in the world for me. Um, question in the world for me. Um, we have built an enterprise operating we have built an enterprise operating we have built an enterprise operating system where our core thesis is what system where our core thesis is what system where our core thesis is what makes this stuff really valuable is makes this stuff really valuable is makes this stuff really valuable is decisions, not data. And it's kind of decisions, not data. And it's kind of decisions, not data. And it's kind of goes to John Boyd's udaloop. What we're goes to John Boyd's udaloop. What we're goes to John Boyd's udaloop. What we're really providing is an operating system really providing is an operating system really providing is an operating system that allows you to bring all of your that allows you to bring all of your that allows you to bring all of your enterprise data together. It solves for enterprise data together. It solves for enterprise data together. It solves for the impedance mismatch between like yeah the impedance mismatch between like yeah the impedance mismatch between like yeah look all this data I've collected it was look all this data I've collected it was look all this data I've collected it was collected and stored in a way that makes collected and stored in a way that makes collected and stored in a way that makes sense to the underlying transactional sense to the underlying transactional sense to the underlying transactional system or makes sense to some part of my system or makes sense to some part of my system or makes sense to some part of my institution but doesn't actually institution but doesn't actually institution but doesn't actually represent how the humans of my represent how the humans of my represent how the humans of my institution think about the problems institution think about the problems institution think about the problems that we're facing. Uh so that we that we're facing. Uh so that we that we're facing. Uh so that we represent what we call the ontology represent what we call the ontology represent what we call the ontology which is not just a model of the data which is not just a model of the data which is not just a model of the data it's also a model of the actions. So we it's also a model of the actions. So we it's also a model of the actions. So we call that the kinetics like if you're call that the kinetics like if you're call that the kinetics like if you're going to make a decision you might be going to make a decision you might be going to make a decision you might be allocating inventory. How do you do allocating inventory. How do you do allocating inventory. How do you do that? So this ontology layer almost that? So this ontology layer almost that? So this ontology layer almost becomes like an API layer for the becomes like an API layer for the becomes like an API layer for the business. It makes the business business. It makes the business business. It makes the business programmable and that changes the rate programmable and that changes the rate programmable and that changes the rate at which you can compound on top of it. at which you can compound on top of it. at which you can compound on top of it. So now you have this abstraction layer So now you have this abstraction layer So now you have this abstraction layer that you can use to build applications that you can use to build applications that you can use to build applications that manage your value chain from the that manage your value chain from the that manage your value chain from the hand of your supplier to the hand of hand of your supplier to the hand of hand of your supplier to the hand of your customer. You can call that a value your customer. You can call that a value your customer. You can call that a value chain. You can also call that a decision chain. You can also call that a decision chain. You can also call that a decision chain. There's a series of your whole chain. There's a series of your whole chain. There's a series of your whole business almost if you just squint at it business almost if you just squint at it business almost if you just squint at it is just a series of decisions you're is just a series of decisions you're is just a series of decisions you're making. Every one of those decisions you making. Every one of those decisions you making. Every one of those decisions you want to have an udaloop like I want to want to have an udaloop like I want to want to have an udaloop like I want to make the best possible decision I can make the best possible decision I can make the best possible decision I can have today but I want more importantly I have today but I want more importantly I have today but I want more importantly I want the first derivative to be good. I want the first derivative to be good. I want the first derivative to be good. I want to learn tomorrow how to make a want to learn tomorrow how to make a want to learn tomorrow how to make a better decision than the one I had better decision than the one I had better decision than the one I had today. today. today. >> As your business scales up everything >> As your business scales up everything >> As your business scales up everything gets more complex especially your gets more complex especially your gets more complex especially your compliance and security needs. With so compliance and security needs. With so compliance and security needs. With so many tools offering band-aids and many tools offering band-aids and many tools offering band-aids and patches, it's unfortunately far too easy patches, it's unfortunately far too easy patches, it's unfortunately far too easy for something to slip through the for something to slip through the for something to slip through the cracks. Fortunately, Vanta is a powerful cracks. Fortunately, Vanta is a powerful cracks. 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Could you give an example of a customer Could you give an example of a customer Could you give an example of a customer where you showed up and maybe describe where you showed up and maybe describe where you showed up and maybe describe the circumstance of their data or their the circumstance of their data or their the circumstance of their data or their systems or something? then what you did systems or something? then what you did systems or something? then what you did like what the process is of establishing like what the process is of establishing like what the process is of establishing and building the ontology which is I and building the ontology which is I and building the ontology which is I think like a very good appropriate but think like a very good appropriate but think like a very good appropriate but fancy word for like mapping reality onto fancy word for like mapping reality onto fancy word for like mapping reality onto a system versus jamming reality into a a system versus jamming reality into a a system versus jamming reality into a pre-existing system and then what sort pre-existing system and then what sort pre-existing system and then what sort of transformation that enabled at that of transformation that enabled at that of transformation that enabled at that customer that would have been impossible customer that would have been impossible customer that would have been impossible with the former system just to like with the former system just to like with the former system just to like bring it to life with like a simple bring it to life with like a simple bring it to life with like a simple example example example >> two things I just want to put down that >> two things I just want to put down that >> two things I just want to put down that will make this make more sense the first will make this make more sense the first will make this make more sense the first is that is that is that >> we want to make software that makes >> we want to make software that makes >> we want to make software that makes makes you more different, not more makes you more different, not more makes you more different, not more similar. We think about it as alpha, not similar. We think about it as alpha, not similar. We think about it as alpha, not beta. The second thing is that we are a beta. The second thing is that we are a beta. The second thing is that we are a wildly inductive company, you know. So, wildly inductive company, you know. So, wildly inductive company, you know. So, we would never show up to a customer we would never show up to a customer we would never show up to a customer with some preconceived notion of this is with some preconceived notion of this is with some preconceived notion of this is the aerospace ontology. I'm going to the aerospace ontology. I'm going to the aerospace ontology. I'm going to pick an aerospace example in a second pick an aerospace example in a second pick an aerospace example in a second here. It's it's rather like all the here. It's it's rather like all the here. It's it's rather like all the values and understanding what makes your values and understanding what makes your values and understanding what makes your aerospace company different than all the aerospace company different than all the aerospace company different than all the others. How do I make you more different others. How do I make you more different others. How do I make you more different there? That's the differentiation you're there? That's the differentiation you're there? That's the differentiation you're competing on. So when we when we first competing on. So when we when we first competing on. So when we when we first came to Airbus, Airbus was in the midst came to Airbus, Airbus was in the midst came to Airbus, Airbus was in the midst of ramping the A350, you know, the A380 of ramping the A350, you know, the A380 of ramping the A350, you know, the A380 was a a wonderful plane, structurally was a a wonderful plane, structurally was a a wonderful plane, structurally unprofitable program, you know. So the unprofitable program, you know. So the unprofitable program, you know. So the A350 was this bet that the whole company A350 was this bet that the whole company A350 was this bet that the whole company was effectively riding on in 2015. was effectively riding on in 2015. was effectively riding on in 2015. The first time you make an airplane, um, The first time you make an airplane, um, The first time you make an airplane, um, you're always going to have issues. The you're always going to have issues. The you're always going to have issues. The there's a learning curve to the there's a learning curve to the there's a learning curve to the production. And one of the most production. And one of the most production. And one of the most important things to figure out as important things to figure out as important things to figure out as quickly as possible is what is what is quickly as possible is what is what is quickly as possible is what is what is an issue that is just a nonconformity an issue that is just a nonconformity an issue that is just a nonconformity that like hey I'll give this guy some that like hey I'll give this guy some that like hey I'll give this guy some training and he'll learn how to figure training and he'll learn how to figure training and he'll learn how to figure it out. It's teething pain it'll go away it out. It's teething pain it'll go away it out. It's teething pain it'll go away and what is a recurring issue that is and what is a recurring issue that is and what is a recurring issue that is actually a design defect that I need to actually a design defect that I need to actually a design defect that I need to go work with my suppliers or upstream. go work with my suppliers or upstream. go work with my suppliers or upstream. How quickly you can solve that becomes How quickly you can solve that becomes How quickly you can solve that becomes fundamental to the shape of the ramp and fundamental to the shape of the ramp and fundamental to the shape of the ramp and the cost of the ramp. the cost of the ramp. the cost of the ramp. So the first thing we did is we just So the first thing we did is we just So the first thing we did is we just started sitting with users on the final started sitting with users on the final started sitting with users on the final assembly line in Tuloo. These are these assembly line in Tuloo. These are these assembly line in Tuloo. These are these are wrench turners effectively and are wrench turners effectively and are wrench turners effectively and understanding hey what makes your life understanding hey what makes your life understanding hey what makes your life suck what's hard about this? What's suck what's hard about this? What's suck what's hard about this? What's what's the challenge in working on these what's the challenge in working on these what's the challenge in working on these non-conformities and you look at like non-conformities and you look at like non-conformities and you look at like basically they're going through Excel basically they're going through Excel basically they're going through Excel they're looking at reports in SAP trying they're looking at reports in SAP trying they're looking at reports in SAP trying to figure out how do I bucket all these to figure out how do I bucket all these to figure out how do I bucket all these issues that are coming in. So we just issues that are coming in. So we just issues that are coming in. So we just helped them automate all of that and the helped them automate all of that and the helped them automate all of that and the ontology at that point was really ontology at that point was really ontology at that point was really related to parts, sequencing of work, uh related to parts, sequencing of work, uh related to parts, sequencing of work, uh defect rates, like everything related to defect rates, like everything related to defect rates, like everything related to quality. quality. quality. Once you had this immense quality asset Once you had this immense quality asset Once you had this immense quality asset though, you were able actually to pivot though, you were able actually to pivot though, you were able actually to pivot it to realize, okay, so like now I'm not it to realize, okay, so like now I'm not it to realize, okay, so like now I'm not now I'm up the learning curve. It kind now I'm up the learning curve. It kind now I'm up the learning curve. It kind of naturally leads to the next problem of naturally leads to the next problem of naturally leads to the next problem which is production planning. So quality which is production planning. So quality which is production planning. So quality to production planning to then in to production planning to then in to production planning to then in service. Now you have the greatest data service. Now you have the greatest data service. Now you have the greatest data asset possible for this tail. As this asset possible for this tail. As this asset possible for this tail. As this plane enters service, how do I help plane enters service, how do I help plane enters service, how do I help maximize the uptime of this asset for my maximize the uptime of this asset for my maximize the uptime of this asset for my customers? How am I going to compete customers? How am I going to compete customers? How am I going to compete against the other aerospace against the other aerospace against the other aerospace manufacturer? That's the natural manufacturer? That's the natural manufacturer? That's the natural evolution that we see with most evolution that we see with most evolution that we see with most customers. You start with one problem, customers. You start with one problem, customers. You start with one problem, but of course they exist in the context but of course they exist in the context but of course they exist in the context of this connected decision chain. of this connected decision chain. of this connected decision chain. >> What's the difference between dealing >> What's the difference between dealing >> What's the difference between dealing with military customers and government with military customers and government with military customers and government customers, which you did for a long customers, which you did for a long customers, which you did for a long time, and commercial customers? There's time, and commercial customers? There's time, and commercial customers? There's a lot more non-market forces in the a lot more non-market forces in the a lot more non-market forces in the military. The military is the only military. The military is the only military. The military is the only institution in the world that kind of institution in the world that kind of institution in the world that kind of profoundly divides up supply and demand. profoundly divides up supply and demand. profoundly divides up supply and demand. You know, the beating heart of most You know, the beating heart of most You know, the beating heart of most companies is that integration, that companies is that integration, that companies is that integration, that sales and operation planning process, sales and operation planning process, sales and operation planning process, right? You have the combatant commands right? You have the combatant commands right? You have the combatant commands we call them, that deal with real world we call them, that deal with real world we call them, that deal with real world events. You're fighting Russia, that's events. You're fighting Russia, that's events. You're fighting Russia, that's that's the European Command, Yukon. that's the European Command, Yukon. that's the European Command, Yukon. And then you have the services like the And then you have the services like the And then you have the services like the Army, Navy, Air Force, Space Force, etc. Army, Navy, Air Force, Space Force, etc. Army, Navy, Air Force, Space Force, etc. Their job is to man, train, and equip. Their job is to man, train, and equip. Their job is to man, train, and equip. That's the supply side. So you you have That's the supply side. So you you have That's the supply side. So you you have a group that has no responsibility for a group that has no responsibility for a group that has no responsibility for demand essentially deciding what to demand essentially deciding what to demand essentially deciding what to build, how how much to build, you know, build, how how much to build, you know, build, how how much to build, you know, how am I going to man, train, and equip how am I going to man, train, and equip how am I going to man, train, and equip this. And then they present these forces this. And then they present these forces this. And then they present these forces to the combatant commands and say, "This to the combatant commands and say, "This to the combatant commands and say, "This is what you have to solve this problem." is what you have to solve this problem." is what you have to solve this problem." That adds an additional level of That adds an additional level of That adds an additional level of complexity. So if the demand side says, complexity. So if the demand side says, complexity. So if the demand side says, "Hey, I really want this. This is the "Hey, I really want this. This is the "Hey, I really want this. This is the capability we need." They they can't buy capability we need." They they can't buy capability we need." They they can't buy it. So how do you kind of square that? it. So how do you kind of square that? it. So how do you kind of square that? So I think you have all these other So I think you have all these other So I think you have all these other non-market forces to deal with. Um, but non-market forces to deal with. Um, but non-market forces to deal with. Um, but I think one of the things that is really I think one of the things that is really I think one of the things that is really advantageous to being both a commercial advantageous to being both a commercial advantageous to being both a commercial and government-oriented company is that and government-oriented company is that and government-oriented company is that the the intrinsic rewards on the the the intrinsic rewards on the the the intrinsic rewards on the government side are so high, so government side are so high, so government side are so high, so motivating. It enables you to get motivating. It enables you to get motivating. It enables you to get through and solve really hard problems through and solve really hard problems through and solve really hard problems in a way that is kind of like a rising in a way that is kind of like a rising in a way that is kind of like a rising tide for the whole business. tide for the whole business. tide for the whole business. >> How would you define the state of our >> How would you define the state of our >> How would you define the state of our military today? Like I know it's a big military today? Like I know it's a big military today? Like I know it's a big question and but it's an important question and but it's an important question and but it's an important question. You've gotten to see so many question. You've gotten to see so many question. You've gotten to see so many sides of it and serve many aspects of sides of it and serve many aspects of sides of it and serve many aspects of it. What? Yeah. How would you describe it. What? Yeah. How would you describe it. What? Yeah. How would you describe the state of the US military? the state of the US military? the state of the US military? >> We are the best military in the world. >> We are the best military in the world. >> We are the best military in the world. Our uniform service members are better Our uniform service members are better Our uniform service members are better than we deserve. Like every day actually than we deserve. Like every day actually than we deserve. Like every day actually had someone tell me like, "Hey, when are had someone tell me like, "Hey, when are had someone tell me like, "Hey, when are you going to stop stop being shocked at you going to stop stop being shocked at you going to stop stop being shocked at how good, you know, this E4 is at how good, you know, this E4 is at how good, you know, this E4 is at building this app or doing this thing building this app or doing this thing building this app or doing this thing and it's like the amount of talent is and it's like the amount of talent is and it's like the amount of talent is eyewatering. eyewatering. eyewatering. I think we encumber them in a lot of I think we encumber them in a lot of I think we encumber them in a lot of process. We deprive them of a lot of process. We deprive them of a lot of process. We deprive them of a lot of agency. And I certainly have a lot of agency. And I certainly have a lot of agency. And I certainly have a lot of critiques of of the bureaucracy. But I critiques of of the bureaucracy. But I critiques of of the bureaucracy. But I think the structural challenge we have think the structural challenge we have think the structural challenge we have is actually something that we just need is actually something that we just need is actually something that we just need to observe from a distance from the to observe from a distance from the to observe from a distance from the military we have today per se, which is military we have today per se, which is military we have today per se, which is the whole point of the military is to the whole point of the military is to the whole point of the military is to deter our adversaries from conflict. If deter our adversaries from conflict. If deter our adversaries from conflict. If you look back over the last 10 years, you look back over the last 10 years, you look back over the last 10 years, we've not been able to deter a lot of we've not been able to deter a lot of we've not been able to deter a lot of conflict. We had the annexation of conflict. We had the annexation of conflict. We had the annexation of Crimea in 2014, Crimea in 2014, Crimea in 2014, the militarization of the Spratley the militarization of the Spratley the militarization of the Spratley Islands after they told President Obama, Islands after they told President Obama, Islands after they told President Obama, "We will not militarize it." They "We will not militarize it." They "We will not militarize it." They militarized the Spratley Islands. We've militarized the Spratley Islands. We've militarized the Spratley Islands. We've had a poggram in Israel. We've had the had a poggram in Israel. We've had the had a poggram in Israel. We've had the invasion of Ukraine. invasion of Ukraine. invasion of Ukraine. We have unprecedented gray zone phase We have unprecedented gray zone phase We have unprecedented gray zone phase zero operations by the Chinese and the zero operations by the Chinese and the zero operations by the Chinese and the South South China Sea. I would say South South China Sea. I would say South South China Sea. I would say arguably in the last year, we've started arguably in the last year, we've started arguably in the last year, we've started to restore deterrence. Whatever you to restore deterrence. Whatever you to restore deterrence. Whatever you think about it, Midnight Hammer was a think about it, Midnight Hammer was a think about it, Midnight Hammer was a massively deterring operation. Maduro is massively deterring operation. Maduro is massively deterring operation. Maduro is massively deterring. You you have it on massively deterring. You you have it on massively deterring. You you have it on multiple levels. With with Midnight multiple levels. With with Midnight multiple levels. With with Midnight Hammer, it's obviously the overwhelming Hammer, it's obviously the overwhelming Hammer, it's obviously the overwhelming strength, the precision of what we're strength, the precision of what we're strength, the precision of what we're able to do, the incredible complexity of able to do, the incredible complexity of able to do, the incredible complexity of the operations. No other military in the the operations. No other military in the the operations. No other military in the world could have done that. world could have done that. world could have done that. But we need to view that as like a But we need to view that as like a But we need to view that as like a single strike, you know, and the single strike, you know, and the single strike, you know, and the deterrence capability against a peer deterrence capability against a peer deterrence capability against a peer adversary is can you generate that adversary is can you generate that adversary is can you generate that strike every single day until the enemy strike every single day until the enemy strike every single day until the enemy is submits to your will. You think about is submits to your will. You think about is submits to your will. You think about Maduro, it also shows our capability Maduro, it also shows our capability Maduro, it also shows our capability like like like literally the raid happened the day the literally the raid happened the day the literally the raid happened the day the Chinese were in town. Maduro has all Chinese were in town. Maduro has all Chinese were in town. Maduro has all these Chinese and Russian weapons, these Chinese and Russian weapons, these Chinese and Russian weapons, Venezuela, and they don't seem to work Venezuela, and they don't seem to work Venezuela, and they don't seem to work at all. And that sends a very strong at all. And that sends a very strong at all. And that sends a very strong message to everyone who else thinks that message to everyone who else thinks that message to everyone who else thinks that their security is coming from buying their security is coming from buying their security is coming from buying Chinese and Russian weapons. Now I think Chinese and Russian weapons. Now I think Chinese and Russian weapons. Now I think we could we kind of trace back and this we could we kind of trace back and this we could we kind of trace back and this is what I really wrote about in the 18 is what I really wrote about in the 18 is what I really wrote about in the 18 thesis. So if we start we say we we've thesis. So if we start we say we we've thesis. So if we start we say we we've lost deterrence like let's let's be lost deterrence like let's let's be lost deterrence like let's let's be cleareyed about that. I think in the cleareyed about that. I think in the cleareyed about that. I think in the last year we've started regaining it. last year we've started regaining it. last year we've started regaining it. What happened? Because we had it for a What happened? Because we had it for a What happened? Because we had it for a long time you know and we were the sole long time you know and we were the sole long time you know and we were the sole superpower in the 90s. How and we spend superpower in the 90s. How and we spend superpower in the 90s. How and we spend a fair amount every year on defense. So a fair amount every year on defense. So a fair amount every year on defense. So I think it would be a reasonable thing I think it would be a reasonable thing I think it would be a reasonable thing for the American people to expect like for the American people to expect like for the American people to expect like that we would that we would that we would >> trillion dollars, right? >> trillion dollars, right? >> trillion dollars, right? >> Yeah. I think there's something much >> Yeah. I think there's something much >> Yeah. I think there's something much more profound. People want to talk about more profound. People want to talk about more profound. People want to talk about narrow things like acquisition reform or narrow things like acquisition reform or narrow things like acquisition reform or the mix of weapons. I think it comes the mix of weapons. I think it comes the mix of weapons. I think it comes back to people. It comes back to the back to people. It comes back to the back to people. It comes back to the heretics. So when we, you know, at the heretics. So when we, you know, at the heretics. So when we, you know, at the at the dawn of World War II, we were the at the dawn of World War II, we were the at the dawn of World War II, we were the best at mass production. Effectively, best at mass production. Effectively, best at mass production. Effectively, our country invented it. And in order to our country invented it. And in order to our country invented it. And in order to create an industrial base, we took the create an industrial base, we took the create an industrial base, we took the number two at GM who was previously the number two at GM who was previously the number two at GM who was previously the number two at Ford, Bill Kudson, who was number two at Ford, Bill Kudson, who was number two at Ford, Bill Kudson, who was a Danish immigr a Danish immigr a Danish immigr who uh who's really the perfector of who uh who's really the perfector of who uh who's really the perfector of mass production, and we direct mass production, and we direct mass production, and we direct commissioned him at threear general, and commissioned him at threear general, and commissioned him at threear general, and we put him in charge of war we put him in charge of war we put him in charge of war mobilization. And and Kudson was a mobilization. And and Kudson was a mobilization. And and Kudson was a worldclass engineer. And what did we do? worldclass engineer. And what did we do? worldclass engineer. And what did we do? We gave him the authority to go meet We gave him the authority to go meet We gave him the authority to go meet other world-class engineers all around other world-class engineers all around other world-class engineers all around America. We had one key advantage in America. We had one key advantage in America. We had one key advantage in World War II in terms of timing, which World War II in terms of timing, which World War II in terms of timing, which is that we had len lease. There was a is that we had len lease. There was a is that we had len lease. There was a period of time that we actually period of time that we actually period of time that we actually mobilized mobilized mobilized production when we were not fighting. We production when we were not fighting. We production when we were not fighting. We were building stuff that we gave to our were building stuff that we gave to our were building stuff that we gave to our allies, to the Brits in particular and allies, to the Brits in particular and allies, to the Brits in particular and the Soviets. Uh but that allowed us to the Soviets. Uh but that allowed us to the Soviets. Uh but that allowed us to build factories and retool existing build factories and retool existing build factories and retool existing factories and hit a production ramp so factories and hit a production ramp so factories and hit a production ramp so that after Pearl Harbor happened, we that after Pearl Harbor happened, we that after Pearl Harbor happened, we were basically at full rate production were basically at full rate production were basically at full rate production and were able to to really go after and were able to to really go after and were able to to really go after these things. A and put this in context these things. A and put this in context these things. A and put this in context of our adversary, the Germans. They were of our adversary, the Germans. They were of our adversary, the Germans. They were actually better engineers than we were. actually better engineers than we were. actually better engineers than we were. They just made a very small number of They just made a very small number of They just made a very small number of very exquisite things. Now, if you come very exquisite things. Now, if you come very exquisite things. Now, if you come to the present moment, we sound like the to the present moment, we sound like the to the present moment, we sound like the Germans. We make a very small number of Germans. We make a very small number of Germans. We make a very small number of truly exquisite, eye-wateringly truly exquisite, eye-wateringly truly exquisite, eye-wateringly exquisite things. And our adversary is exquisite things. And our adversary is exquisite things. And our adversary is the world's best at mass production. So, the world's best at mass production. So, the world's best at mass production. So, this should give us all a little bit of this should give us all a little bit of this should give us all a little bit of of discomfort here. of discomfort here. of discomfort here. Uh the second part of this is is the the Uh the second part of this is is the the Uh the second part of this is is the the nature of the industrial base. Like nature of the industrial base. Like nature of the industrial base. Like today we call it the defense industrial today we call it the defense industrial today we call it the defense industrial base. I think it used to be the American base. I think it used to be the American base. I think it used to be the American industrial base. Until the fall of the industrial base. Until the fall of the industrial base. Until the fall of the Berlin Wall only 6% of spending on major Berlin Wall only 6% of spending on major Berlin Wall only 6% of spending on major weapon systems went to defense weapon systems went to defense weapon systems went to defense specialists, i.e. companies that only specialists, i.e. companies that only specialists, i.e. companies that only did business with the defense did business with the defense did business with the defense department. Most of that spending, 94% department. Most of that spending, 94% department. Most of that spending, 94% went to what I call as dualpurpose went to what I call as dualpurpose went to what I call as dualpurpose companies. Look, a missile is single companies. Look, a missile is single companies. Look, a missile is single use. There's no dual-use missile. But use. There's no dual-use missile. But use. There's no dual-use missile. But the idea that Chrysler would build the idea that Chrysler would build the idea that Chrysler would build missiles and minivans meant that all the missiles and minivans meant that all the missiles and minivans meant that all the R&D that they were doing on production, R&D that they were doing on production, R&D that they were doing on production, material, equipment, machine tooling material, equipment, machine tooling material, equipment, machine tooling could be leveraged and was subsidizing could be leveraged and was subsidizing could be leveraged and was subsidizing our national security that we recognized our national security that we recognized our national security that we recognized that freedom and prosperity were two that freedom and prosperity were two that freedom and prosperity were two sides of the same coin. We're so far sides of the same coin. We're so far sides of the same coin. We're so far away from that world today, right? Like away from that world today, right? Like away from that world today, right? Like General Mills, the serial company, used General Mills, the serial company, used General Mills, the serial company, used to build torpedoes and inertial guidance to build torpedoes and inertial guidance to build torpedoes and inertial guidance systems. Kodak, the film company, also systems. Kodak, the film company, also systems. Kodak, the film company, also was a key a key supplier to Corona, was a key a key supplier to Corona, was a key a key supplier to Corona, which was our first spy satellite. But which was our first spy satellite. But which was our first spy satellite. But this is this is the industrial base that this is this is the industrial base that this is this is the industrial base that won World War II, won the early Cold won World War II, won the early Cold won World War II, won the early Cold War, and really deterred our War, and really deterred our War, and really deterred our adversaries. And it's only a consequence adversaries. And it's only a consequence adversaries. And it's only a consequence of becoming the sole superpower that of becoming the sole superpower that of becoming the sole superpower that everything changed. And it changed in everything changed. And it changed in everything changed. And it changed in two ways. One, that that 6% number today two ways. One, that that 6% number today two ways. One, that that 6% number today is 86%. So 86% of major weapons systems is 86%. So 86% of major weapons systems is 86%. So 86% of major weapons systems come from defense specialists only. come from defense specialists only. come from defense specialists only. >> Uh the other part of it is the nature of >> Uh the other part of it is the nature of >> Uh the other part of it is the nature of the industrial base. the industrial base. the industrial base. We think about it as Northrup Grumman. We think about it as Northrup Grumman. We think about it as Northrup Grumman. It much more accurately it was Jack It much more accurately it was Jack It much more accurately it was Jack Northrup. It was Leroy Grumman. It was Northrup. It was Leroy Grumman. It was Northrup. It was Leroy Grumman. It was William Lear. It was Henry Ford. It was William Lear. It was Henry Ford. It was William Lear. It was Henry Ford. It was Henry Kaiser. You had founder figures. Henry Kaiser. You had founder figures. Henry Kaiser. You had founder figures. They were their own sort of heretics. They were their own sort of heretics. They were their own sort of heretics. They were their own like what we would They were their own like what we would They were their own like what we would recognize in the valley today. That's recognize in the valley today. That's recognize in the valley today. That's where this talent was. It was in the where this talent was. It was in the where this talent was. It was in the industrial companies of America. And we industrial companies of America. And we industrial companies of America. And we were betting on these people, not just were betting on these people, not just were betting on these people, not just their institutions to deliver this sort their institutions to deliver this sort their institutions to deliver this sort of capability. In 1993, there was a very of capability. In 1993, there was a very of capability. In 1993, there was a very famous dinner at the Pentagon called the famous dinner at the Pentagon called the famous dinner at the Pentagon called the Last Supper. And you know, we we had won Last Supper. And you know, we we had won Last Supper. And you know, we we had won the Cold War. I think in a democracy, the Cold War. I think in a democracy, the Cold War. I think in a democracy, it's very reasonable for the people to it's very reasonable for the people to it's very reasonable for the people to say, "We want to spend less on defense. say, "We want to spend less on defense. say, "We want to spend less on defense. What exactly is our threat?" So, we What exactly is our threat?" So, we What exactly is our threat?" So, we slashed the defense budget. And in this slashed the defense budget. And in this slashed the defense budget. And in this dinner, the Secretary of Defense told uh dinner, the Secretary of Defense told uh dinner, the Secretary of Defense told uh a subset, I think it was 15 of the 51 a subset, I think it was 15 of the 51 a subset, I think it was 15 of the 51 primes. We had 51 primes. Today, we have primes. We had 51 primes. Today, we have primes. We had 51 primes. Today, we have five. They told him, "You're all not five. They told him, "You're all not five. They told him, "You're all not going to survive. The budget's getting going to survive. The budget's getting going to survive. The budget's getting cut. We give you permission to cut. We give you permission to cut. We give you permission to consolidate. maybe some of you should consolidate. maybe some of you should consolidate. maybe some of you should exit the defense business altogether and exit the defense business altogether and exit the defense business altogether and know that some of you may go out of know that some of you may go out of know that some of you may go out of business and we're not going to save business and we're not going to save business and we're not going to save you. And this just set off a merger you. And this just set off a merger you. And this just set off a merger frenzy that led from the consolidation, frenzy that led from the consolidation, frenzy that led from the consolidation, you know, from 51 down to five. Now, you know, from 51 down to five. Now, you know, from 51 down to five. Now, most people look at this and I think most people look at this and I think most people look at this and I think they take away the wrong conclusion, they take away the wrong conclusion, they take away the wrong conclusion, which is like, oh, this is when we lost which is like, oh, this is when we lost which is like, oh, this is when we lost competition. When we had competition, it competition. When we had competition, it competition. When we had competition, it was much more dynamic. I think the much was much more dynamic. I think the much was much more dynamic. I think the much more profound consequence is this is the more profound consequence is this is the more profound consequence is this is the moment of profound financialization and moment of profound financialization and moment of profound financialization and conformity in the industrial base. You conformity in the industrial base. You conformity in the industrial base. You lost the crazy people. you know, they lost the crazy people. you know, they lost the crazy people. you know, they went to tech, they went to other parts went to tech, they went to other parts went to tech, they went to other parts of our economy where there was enough of our economy where there was enough of our economy where there was enough kind of positive sum energy and growth kind of positive sum energy and growth kind of positive sum energy and growth and it wasn't just about dividends and and it wasn't just about dividends and and it wasn't just about dividends and buyback ratios and financial buyback ratios and financial buyback ratios and financial engineering. It was about real engineering. It was about real engineering. It was about real engineering. The worldclass engineers, engineering. The worldclass engineers, engineering. The worldclass engineers, it's like why why should we celebrate a it's like why why should we celebrate a it's like why why should we celebrate a Hyman Rickover or a Kelly Johnson, you Hyman Rickover or a Kelly Johnson, you Hyman Rickover or a Kelly Johnson, you know, Kelly Johnson was the founder of know, Kelly Johnson was the founder of know, Kelly Johnson was the founder of Skunk Works at Lockheed. In his Skunk Works at Lockheed. In his Skunk Works at Lockheed. In his lifetime, he built 41 airframes. That is lifetime, he built 41 airframes. That is lifetime, he built 41 airframes. That is insane. Many of which we still fly insane. Many of which we still fly insane. Many of which we still fly today, today, today, >> you know, and he built the U2 in 13 >> you know, and he built the U2 in 13 >> you know, and he built the U2 in 13 months. months. months. The timelines we're talking about are The timelines we're talking about are The timelines we're talking about are just incredible. You you can't look at just incredible. You you can't look at just incredible. You you can't look at that and think anything other than this that and think anything other than this that and think anything other than this is an artist. Like this guy, this is is an artist. Like this guy, this is is an artist. Like this guy, this is like divine what he's able to do. like divine what he's able to do. like divine what he's able to do. >> And so much of what I think we've gotten >> And so much of what I think we've gotten >> And so much of what I think we've gotten wrong is those things were messy and wrong is those things were messy and wrong is those things were messy and chaotic and hard and frictionful. And chaotic and hard and frictionful. And chaotic and hard and frictionful. And over time, we've tried to install lots over time, we've tried to install lots over time, we've tried to install lots of process to make these things less of process to make these things less of process to make these things less messy, less chaotic. As a consequence messy, less chaotic. As a consequence messy, less chaotic. As a consequence though, they end up not working, you though, they end up not working, you though, they end up not working, you know, and um we need a little more crazy know, and um we need a little more crazy know, and um we need a little more crazy back to get these things to work. back to get these things to work. back to get these things to work. >> How do we undo this? I'm reminded of the >> How do we undo this? I'm reminded of the >> How do we undo this? I'm reminded of the Churchill quote, won't get it exactly Churchill quote, won't get it exactly Churchill quote, won't get it exactly right, something like the US always does right, something like the US always does right, something like the US always does the right thing after trying everything the right thing after trying everything the right thing after trying everything else first. And and like a lot of what's else first. And and like a lot of what's else first. And and like a lot of what's happened is that we have shipped the happened is that we have shipped the happened is that we have shipped the capability to produce physical things capability to produce physical things capability to produce physical things off our shores uh because it to optimize off our shores uh because it to optimize off our shores uh because it to optimize for a variety of things, but it's much for a variety of things, but it's much for a variety of things, but it's much cheaper and more scalable and easier. cheaper and more scalable and easier. cheaper and more scalable and easier. And we've become, you know, primarily a And we've become, you know, primarily a And we've become, you know, primarily a country with all the market cap that's country with all the market cap that's country with all the market cap that's that rests on technology and IP and that rests on technology and IP and that rests on technology and IP and extreme talent that the the small number extreme talent that the the small number extreme talent that the the small number of exquisite things, exquisite people, of exquisite things, exquisite people, of exquisite things, exquisite people, exquisite researchers. Like we've done exquisite researchers. Like we've done exquisite researchers. Like we've done an amazing job there. U but we don't an amazing job there. U but we don't an amazing job there. U but we don't make much here anymore. A lot of it make much here anymore. A lot of it make much here anymore. A lot of it happens in China and overseas. How can happens in China and overseas. How can happens in China and overseas. How can we reverse that? Like it seems it seems we reverse that? Like it seems it seems we reverse that? Like it seems it seems so imbalanced as to and so daunting as so imbalanced as to and so daunting as so imbalanced as to and so daunting as to seem impossible. Um but of course I to seem impossible. Um but of course I to seem impossible. Um but of course I know you think it's critical. So like know you think it's critical. So like know you think it's critical. So like what what is even the first step in what what is even the first step in what what is even the first step in being able to do this? being able to do this? being able to do this? >> And what you said is exactly right. It >> And what you said is exactly right. It >> And what you said is exactly right. It is daunting but critical. So we have no is daunting but critical. So we have no is daunting but critical. So we have no choice but to lean into that and start. choice but to lean into that and start. choice but to lean into that and start. You know the best time to start would You know the best time to start would You know the best time to start would have been yesterday. The next best time have been yesterday. The next best time have been yesterday. The next best time is today. Let me also give the case for is today. Let me also give the case for is today. Let me also give the case for why it's critical because I think we're why it's critical because I think we're why it's critical because I think we're screwed if we don't do this. screwed if we don't do this. screwed if we don't do this. >> The biggest lie that we bought from >> The biggest lie that we bought from >> The biggest lie that we bought from globalization is this concept of we will globalization is this concept of we will globalization is this concept of we will do the innovation and they will do the do the innovation and they will do the do the innovation and they will do the production. And what you have to production. And what you have to production. And what you have to recognize that innovation is itself a recognize that innovation is itself a recognize that innovation is itself a consequence of productivity. to put it consequence of productivity. to put it consequence of productivity. to put it in terms that I think our audience here in terms that I think our audience here in terms that I think our audience here would understand most directly like what would understand most directly like what would understand most directly like what motivated Google to write to do the motivated Google to write to do the motivated Google to write to do the research behind the attention is all you research behind the attention is all you research behind the attention is all you need paper in 2017 if you ask them need paper in 2017 if you ask them need paper in 2017 if you ask them they'll say it's like well the team was they'll say it's like well the team was they'll say it's like well the team was working on an incremental 3% improvement working on an incremental 3% improvement working on an incremental 3% improvement to Google translate you cannot think of to Google translate you cannot think of to Google translate you cannot think of something more benal leading to something more benal leading to something more benal leading to something more revolutionary than that something more revolutionary than that something more revolutionary than that so if you don't have the input stimulus so if you don't have the input stimulus so if you don't have the input stimulus on improving production you're actually on improving production you're actually on improving production you're actually not going to be able to capture the not going to be able to capture the not going to be able to capture the innovation and that's literally what innovation and that's literally what innovation and that's literally what we're seeing play out in the marketplace we're seeing play out in the marketplace we're seeing play out in the marketplace today which is like okay they went from today which is like okay they went from today which is like okay they went from making a battery to making the whole making a battery to making the whole making a battery to making the whole car. Um they uh Wooi went from being a car. Um they uh Wooi went from being a car. Um they uh Wooi went from being a cheap you know basically a cheap pair of cheap you know basically a cheap pair of cheap you know basically a cheap pair of hands for pipetting contract research in hands for pipetting contract research in hands for pipetting contract research in the pharma industry to actually now 50% the pharma industry to actually now 50% the pharma industry to actually now 50% of all clinical trials are drugs that of all clinical trials are drugs that of all clinical trials are drugs that are created in China you know so we have are created in China you know so we have are created in China you know so we have seated the innovation it's not that it's seated the innovation it's not that it's seated the innovation it's not that it's not that it was taken away from us we not that it was taken away from us we not that it was taken away from us we just seated it because we had completely just seated it because we had completely just seated it because we had completely incorrect precept so now we have to incorrect precept so now we have to incorrect precept so now we have to reattack that now reattack that now reattack that now we shouldn't do this we should do this we shouldn't do this we should do this we shouldn't do this we should do this you know with some asymmetric advantage you know with some asymmetric advantage you know with some asymmetric advantage and I think I think we have a couple of and I think I think we have a couple of and I think I think we have a couple of them I don't think it's true that we're them I don't think it's true that we're them I don't think it's true that we're not great at building things in this not great at building things in this not great at building things in this country. Look at Elon and the progeny of country. Look at Elon and the progeny of country. Look at Elon and the progeny of Elon. Like we do know how to manufacture Elon. Like we do know how to manufacture Elon. Like we do know how to manufacture things here and we're going to have to things here and we're going to have to things here and we're going to have to think about manufacturing things in new think about manufacturing things in new think about manufacturing things in new and novel ways. In addition, like it's and novel ways. In addition, like it's and novel ways. In addition, like it's not it doesn't all have to be new. It's not it doesn't all have to be new. It's not it doesn't all have to be new. It's like Ford, General Motors, these are like Ford, General Motors, these are like Ford, General Motors, these are worldclass manufacturers too. Like we worldclass manufacturers too. Like we worldclass manufacturers too. Like we have that capability, have that capability, have that capability, but we also have new ways of thinking but we also have new ways of thinking but we also have new ways of thinking about this with much deeper vertically about this with much deeper vertically about this with much deeper vertically integrated production. um thinking about integrated production. um thinking about integrated production. um thinking about the production process itself as the production process itself as the production process itself as something that's more iterative and something that's more iterative and something that's more iterative and software-like that you're going to keep software-like that you're going to keep software-like that you're going to keep upgrading, colllocating R&D with upgrading, colllocating R&D with upgrading, colllocating R&D with production itself. So, I think these production itself. So, I think these production itself. So, I think these sorts of trade crafts are the things sorts of trade crafts are the things sorts of trade crafts are the things that we can lean on. And probably the that we can lean on. And probably the that we can lean on. And probably the the last piece I'd say is AI is David's the last piece I'd say is AI is David's the last piece I'd say is AI is David's slingshot here. You know, we can if we slingshot here. You know, we can if we slingshot here. You know, we can if we can give the American worker can give the American worker can give the American worker superpowers, if you can make the superpowers, if you can make the superpowers, if you can make the American worker 50 times more productive American worker 50 times more productive American worker 50 times more productive than a worker anywhere else, you're than a worker anywhere else, you're than a worker anywhere else, you're going to change the efficient frontier going to change the efficient frontier going to change the efficient frontier of what can be made here. And I think as of what can be made here. And I think as of what can be made here. And I think as a consequence we should be a consequence we should be a consequence we should be re-industrialization maximalists. Like re-industrialization maximalists. Like re-industrialization maximalists. Like the free traders out there like to say the free traders out there like to say the free traders out there like to say like maybe we can French shore or like maybe we can French shore or like maybe we can French shore or whatever. I think that stuff can let us whatever. I think that stuff can let us whatever. I think that stuff can let us off the hook too easily and it fails to off the hook too easily and it fails to off the hook too easily and it fails to solve the problem. The other example solve the problem. The other example solve the problem. The other example I'll give you from Patrick McGee's book I'll give you from Patrick McGee's book I'll give you from Patrick McGee's book Apple and China great book right and you Apple and China great book right and you Apple and China great book right and you know people love to say something like know people love to say something like know people love to say something like well we don't have the machine tools well we don't have the machine tools well we don't have the machine tools engineers in America. You could hardly engineers in America. You could hardly engineers in America. You could hardly get two people in a room to talk about get two people in a room to talk about get two people in a room to talk about it. You could fill a whole stadium in it. You could fill a whole stadium in it. You could fill a whole stadium in China. But then you look like Apple has China. But then you look like Apple has China. But then you look like Apple has spent the equivalent on an spent the equivalent on an spent the equivalent on an inflationadjusted basis in the last five inflationadjusted basis in the last five inflationadjusted basis in the last five years of two and a half Marshall plans years of two and a half Marshall plans years of two and a half Marshall plans building talent and capacity in China. building talent and capacity in China. building talent and capacity in China. How about we try to spend one Marshall How about we try to spend one Marshall How about we try to spend one Marshall plan here? I think the problem is we're plan here? I think the problem is we're plan here? I think the problem is we're not even trying. In part because we're not even trying. In part because we're not even trying. In part because we're daunted in part because parts of our daunted in part because parts of our daunted in part because parts of our economy don't recognize that actually economy don't recognize that actually economy don't recognize that actually this isn't going to keep working. Like this isn't going to keep working. Like this isn't going to keep working. Like you're going to lose everything, not you're going to lose everything, not you're going to lose everything, not just something. uh and and and it's why just something. uh and and and it's why just something. uh and and and it's why I feel a need to an urgent call to I feel a need to an urgent call to I feel a need to an urgent call to action to say like we are in an action to say like we are in an action to say like we are in an undeclared state of emergency and it's undeclared state of emergency and it's undeclared state of emergency and it's not just manufacturing the physical not just manufacturing the physical not just manufacturing the physical things we think about I even think about things we think about I even think about things we think about I even think about this in terms of drugs 80% of our this in terms of drugs 80% of our this in terms of drugs 80% of our generic drugs generic drugs generic drugs come from China in one way or another come from China in one way or another come from China in one way or another whether it's the APIs or the finished whether it's the APIs or the finished whether it's the APIs or the finished product themselves product themselves product themselves that is a huge problem uh today your that is a huge problem uh today your that is a huge problem uh today your child has an ear infection that's pretty child has an ear infection that's pretty child has an ear infection that's pretty trivial you think I'll have some generic trivial you think I'll have some generic trivial you think I'll have some generic antibiotics and it'll go away if you antibiotics and it'll go away if you antibiotics and it'll go away if you have great power competition with China have great power competition with China have great power competition with China and you're the will of the American and you're the will of the American and you're the will of the American people to fight when they have to really people to fight when they have to really people to fight when they have to really contemplate, hey, my 5-year-old might contemplate, hey, my 5-year-old might contemplate, hey, my 5-year-old might die of an ear infection, you know. So, die of an ear infection, you know. So, die of an ear infection, you know. So, we we need to take these things kind of we we need to take these things kind of we we need to take these things kind of much more seriously and and further down much more seriously and and further down much more seriously and and further down the supply chain. I mean, I'm glad we're the supply chain. I mean, I'm glad we're the supply chain. I mean, I'm glad we're starting with rare earths, but there you starting with rare earths, but there you starting with rare earths, but there you could say we had to get punched in the could say we had to get punched in the could say we had to get punched in the face to mobilize around it. Maybe one of face to mobilize around it. Maybe one of face to mobilize around it. Maybe one of the gling things we should all think the gling things we should all think the gling things we should all think about is we we've been staring at this about is we we've been staring at this about is we we've been staring at this rare earths problem for the better part rare earths problem for the better part rare earths problem for the better part of 15 15 years and we more or less have of 15 15 years and we more or less have of 15 15 years and we more or less have solved it for like two billion bucks. solved it for like two billion bucks. solved it for like two billion bucks. It's roughly a rounding error relative It's roughly a rounding error relative It's roughly a rounding error relative to everything that we're doing and now to everything that we're doing and now to everything that we're doing and now we're on a trajectory to do it. So I we're on a trajectory to do it. So I we're on a trajectory to do it. So I think part of it is just starting. I think part of it is just starting. I think part of it is just starting. I would love to bring everything back. You would love to bring everything back. You would love to bring everything back. You know, I think making a marginal know, I think making a marginal know, I think making a marginal improvement of even 10% dramatically improvement of even 10% dramatically improvement of even 10% dramatically reduces the adversaries leverage. reduces the adversaries leverage. reduces the adversaries leverage. >> Can you I just was reviewing my notes >> Can you I just was reviewing my notes >> Can you I just was reviewing my notes ahead of our conversation today from ahead of our conversation today from ahead of our conversation today from Graham Allison's book on on China, Graham Allison's book on on China, Graham Allison's book on on China, Destined for War with China. Can you Destined for War with China. Can you Destined for War with China. Can you give your perspective on um how you give your perspective on um how you give your perspective on um how you think about China as an adversary, as a think about China as an adversary, as a think about China as an adversary, as a country, as I mean the I highly country, as I mean the I highly country, as I mean the I highly recommend the book Apple and China. I recommend the book Apple and China. I recommend the book Apple and China. I mean it it really gives you this deep mean it it really gives you this deep mean it it really gives you this deep sense of how tightly integrated our mo sense of how tightly integrated our mo sense of how tightly integrated our mo maybe argue arguably our most important maybe argue arguably our most important maybe argue arguably our most important company is with with manufacturing company is with with manufacturing company is with with manufacturing there. It's this very strange there. It's this very strange there. It's this very strange circumstance I have to admit where I've circumstance I have to admit where I've circumstance I have to admit where I've been to China. It's like it's another been to China. It's like it's another been to China. It's like it's another place filled with human beings and place filled with human beings and place filled with human beings and interesting things and amazing interesting things and amazing interesting things and amazing interesting culture and all sorts of interesting culture and all sorts of interesting culture and all sorts of positives. It's a hard thing to wrestle positives. It's a hard thing to wrestle positives. It's a hard thing to wrestle with, right? That they're an adversary with, right? That they're an adversary with, right? That they're an adversary in in the traditional sense. Um, but I in in the traditional sense. Um, but I in in the traditional sense. Um, but I think there are components of that and think there are components of that and think there are components of that and and the nuance is important. I'd love to and the nuance is important. I'd love to and the nuance is important. I'd love to just hear you describe how you think just hear you describe how you think just hear you describe how you think about China as a as a political entity, about China as a as a political entity, about China as a as a political entity, as an adversary, as a country. Um, it as an adversary, as a country. Um, it as an adversary, as a country. Um, it just feels like an especially important just feels like an especially important just feels like an especially important thing to understand your view on. thing to understand your view on. thing to understand your view on. >> You know, when we won World War II, we >> You know, when we won World War II, we >> You know, when we won World War II, we spent our own money to rebuild Germany spent our own money to rebuild Germany spent our own money to rebuild Germany and Japan. and Japan. and Japan. Micro electronics moved to Southeast Micro electronics moved to Southeast Micro electronics moved to Southeast Asia as Apple and China documents and Asia as Apple and China documents and Asia as Apple and China documents and chip and chip wars documents uh because chip and chip wars documents uh because chip and chip wars documents uh because we helped move it there. Yes, we got we helped move it there. Yes, we got we helped move it there. Yes, we got cheaper goods in return, but the cheaper goods in return, but the cheaper goods in return, but the economic development of these countries economic development of these countries economic development of these countries they're flourishing in order to create they're flourishing in order to create they're flourishing in order to create global stability was part of the global stability was part of the global stability was part of the calculus. Same thing with admitting calculus. Same thing with admitting calculus. Same thing with admitting China to the World Trade Organization. China to the World Trade Organization. China to the World Trade Organization. Uh the the problem is they cheated the Uh the the problem is they cheated the Uh the the problem is they cheated the whole way through. And even if you go whole way through. And even if you go whole way through. And even if you go back to pre- Dang Xiaoing era, they call back to pre- Dang Xiaoing era, they call back to pre- Dang Xiaoing era, they call us the big enemy. You know, I think part us the big enemy. You know, I think part us the big enemy. You know, I think part of it is our own naivity, our own belief of it is our own naivity, our own belief of it is our own naivity, our own belief that capitalism and human flourishing is that capitalism and human flourishing is that capitalism and human flourishing is a natural consequence of prosperity. So, a natural consequence of prosperity. So, a natural consequence of prosperity. So, okay, they're saying these things, but okay, they're saying these things, but okay, they're saying these things, but as they get richer, they're going to as they get richer, they're going to as they get richer, they're going to change their perspective on these change their perspective on these change their perspective on these things, and we're all going to find some things, and we're all going to find some things, and we're all going to find some way of having a positive some view on way of having a positive some view on way of having a positive some view on the world. That's essentially what the world. That's essentially what the world. That's essentially what didn't happen. So, I think the challenge didn't happen. So, I think the challenge didn't happen. So, I think the challenge for us with the CCP for us with the CCP for us with the CCP is that it's not enough for China to be is that it's not enough for China to be is that it's not enough for China to be prosperous. America must fail. You know, prosperous. America must fail. You know, prosperous. America must fail. You know, you could just see this through simple you could just see this through simple you could just see this through simple acts like if you look at um agriculture, acts like if you look at um agriculture, acts like if you look at um agriculture, it is totally their prerogative. It's a it is totally their prerogative. It's a it is totally their prerogative. It's a business decision whether you want to business decision whether you want to business decision whether you want to buy American soybeans or not or you want buy American soybeans or not or you want buy American soybeans or not or you want to buy Brazilian soybeans. I do not to buy Brazilian soybeans. I do not to buy Brazilian soybeans. I do not begrudge them one bit. It's totally begrudge them one bit. It's totally begrudge them one bit. It's totally different thing when you're trying to different thing when you're trying to different thing when you're trying to smuggle in agricultural funguses. So, we smuggle in agricultural funguses. So, we smuggle in agricultural funguses. So, we can't grow soybeans. Now, if you start can't grow soybeans. Now, if you start can't grow soybeans. Now, if you start going down through the laundry list of going down through the laundry list of going down through the laundry list of what's actually happening, that's that's what's actually happening, that's that's what's actually happening, that's that's the shape of what's happening. And the shape of what's happening. And the shape of what's happening. And they're very they're a formidable they're very they're a formidable they're very they're a formidable adversary in the sense that you know we adversary in the sense that you know we adversary in the sense that you know we our conception of of war is kinetic. our conception of of war is kinetic. our conception of of war is kinetic. It's like the lone heroic cowboy against It's like the lone heroic cowboy against It's like the lone heroic cowboy against the odds winning through heroism. Their the odds winning through heroism. Their the odds winning through heroism. Their conception of war is deception. It's the conception of war is deception. It's the conception of war is deception. It's the the general who tricked the adversary to the general who tricked the adversary to the general who tricked the adversary to get into the valley and then flooded it. get into the valley and then flooded it. get into the valley and then flooded it. You want to win without firing a shot. You want to win without firing a shot. You want to win without firing a shot. And so a lot of the things that are And so a lot of the things that are And so a lot of the things that are happening are below what we would happening are below what we would happening are below what we would consider the threshold of conflict. But consider the threshold of conflict. But consider the threshold of conflict. But but it absolutely is conflict. It is in but it absolutely is conflict. It is in but it absolutely is conflict. It is in their in their system system destruction their in their system system destruction their in their system system destruction warfare. You know, it's waging war warfare. You know, it's waging war warfare. You know, it's waging war through all the means because they're through all the means because they're through all the means because they're going to wage it where they have going to wage it where they have going to wage it where they have symmetric asymmetric strength. And until symmetric asymmetric strength. And until symmetric asymmetric strength. And until you know the American Calvinist you know the American Calvinist you know the American Calvinist sensibility is structurally positive sensibility is structurally positive sensibility is structurally positive some like and we're going to we're going some like and we're going to we're going some like and we're going to we're going to turn the other cheek time and time to turn the other cheek time and time to turn the other cheek time and time again over and over again. There will be again over and over again. There will be again over and over again. There will be some line there'll be some point at some line there'll be some point at some line there'll be some point at which we just react. And when we react, which we just react. And when we react, which we just react. And when we react, the the best quote I have from the the the best quote I have from the the the best quote I have from the admiral that I like is it's no longer admiral that I like is it's no longer admiral that I like is it's no longer John Boydy's udaloop. Observe, orient, John Boydy's udaloop. Observe, orient, John Boydy's udaloop. Observe, orient, decide, act. It's the American ud decide, act. It's the American ud decide, act. It's the American ud udaloop. Observe, um, overreact, udaloop. Observe, um, overreact, udaloop. Observe, um, overreact, destroy, apologize. destroy, apologize. destroy, apologize. What we want to do is prevent this from What we want to do is prevent this from What we want to do is prevent this from happening by having enough deterrence happening by having enough deterrence happening by having enough deterrence that we're not provoked to being in a that we're not provoked to being in a that we're not provoked to being in a position where we need we even need to position where we need we even need to position where we need we even need to react. You've mentioned that the idea of react. You've mentioned that the idea of react. You've mentioned that the idea of asymmetries a few times, nuclear subs asymmetries a few times, nuclear subs asymmetries a few times, nuclear subs being an example of one of our last huge being an example of one of our last huge being an example of one of our last huge asymmetries versus others. What are the asymmetries versus others. What are the asymmetries versus others. What are the most important asymmetries in your mind most important asymmetries in your mind most important asymmetries in your mind for the US and for China? Like where for the US and for China? Like where for the US and for China? Like where where do where where do they have an where do where where do they have an where do where where do they have an asymmetric advantage against us? Where asymmetric advantage against us? Where asymmetric advantage against us? Where do we have it against them? And what do do we have it against them? And what do do we have it against them? And what do you hope shifts in? you hope shifts in? you hope shifts in? >> This is a great question. So their their >> This is a great question. So their their >> This is a great question. So their their principal asymmetric advantage is principal asymmetric advantage is principal asymmetric advantage is long-term planning. Um they actually long-term planning. Um they actually long-term planning. Um they actually can't pivot on a dime. So, let's go back can't pivot on a dime. So, let's go back can't pivot on a dime. So, let's go back to Gulf War I, which we're talking about to Gulf War I, which we're talking about to Gulf War I, which we're talking about with John Boyd. They saw the devastating with John Boyd. They saw the devastating with John Boyd. They saw the devastating violence we were able to do in basically violence we were able to do in basically violence we were able to do in basically four days to the fourth largest army in four days to the fourth largest army in four days to the fourth largest army in the world, and they they said, "Okay, we the world, and they they said, "Okay, we the world, and they they said, "Okay, we have to systematically map all the have to systematically map all the have to systematically map all the critical dependencies of America's critical dependencies of America's critical dependencies of America's military technology and invest against military technology and invest against military technology and invest against it." And they have been doing that since it." And they have been doing that since it." And they have been doing that since 91. Uh, and so we like the frog has kind 91. Uh, and so we like the frog has kind 91. Uh, and so we like the frog has kind of boiled in some sense. And it's a of boiled in some sense. And it's a of boiled in some sense. And it's a little bit of an easier game because little bit of an easier game because little bit of an easier game because they're playing a home game, but that's they're playing a home game, but that's they're playing a home game, but that's the map they've been on. And it's been a the map they've been on. And it's been a the map they've been on. And it's been a steady journey. And if you look back, steady journey. And if you look back, steady journey. And if you look back, they broadcast their intent the whole they broadcast their intent the whole they broadcast their intent the whole time. There's no surprises that were time. There's no surprises that were time. There's no surprises that were there ever. there ever. there ever. Our asymmetric advantages that were Our asymmetric advantages that were Our asymmetric advantages that were crazy. The AI phenomenon was not in crazy. The AI phenomenon was not in crazy. The AI phenomenon was not in their long-range plan. It wasn't in our their long-range plan. It wasn't in our their long-range plan. It wasn't in our long-range plan, but when it happened, long-range plan, but when it happened, long-range plan, but when it happened, we all our whole economy pivoted on it we all our whole economy pivoted on it we all our whole economy pivoted on it on a dime, right? And even the Chinese on a dime, right? And even the Chinese on a dime, right? And even the Chinese models, those are a result of models, those are a result of models, those are a result of distillation. And so our ability then to distillation. And so our ability then to distillation. And so our ability then to be unpredictable be unpredictable be unpredictable because we ourselves do not know what because we ourselves do not know what because we ourselves do not know what we're going to do. That's that's our key we're going to do. That's that's our key we're going to do. That's that's our key strength. That comes back to the strength. That comes back to the strength. That comes back to the heretics. Where does that heretics. Where does that heretics. Where does that unpredictability come from? Because it's unpredictability come from? Because it's unpredictability come from? Because it's not our bureaucracy. Our bureaucracy is not our bureaucracy. Our bureaucracy is not our bureaucracy. Our bureaucracy is incredibly predictable, right? Uh it's incredibly predictable, right? Uh it's incredibly predictable, right? Uh it's not the steady Eddie managed decline. not the steady Eddie managed decline. not the steady Eddie managed decline. It's it's the crazies. How do we get It's it's the crazies. How do we get It's it's the crazies. How do we get more heretics in this part of the more heretics in this part of the more heretics in this part of the American uh story because there's American uh story because there's American uh story because there's obviously a massive profit and I would obviously a massive profit and I would obviously a massive profit and I would argue status uh motivator in the private argue status uh motivator in the private argue status uh motivator in the private sector. all these companies that are sector. all these companies that are sector. all these companies that are popping up with amazing founders, the popping up with amazing founders, the popping up with amazing founders, the potential rewards are extremely obvious. potential rewards are extremely obvious. potential rewards are extremely obvious. The heretics that you described at the The heretics that you described at the The heretics that you described at the start of the conversation, that's start of the conversation, that's start of the conversation, that's definitely not true. You mentioned, you definitely not true. You mentioned, you definitely not true. You mentioned, you know, dying penniless or whatever. How know, dying penniless or whatever. How know, dying penniless or whatever. How do we create the right set of incentives do we create the right set of incentives do we create the right set of incentives for more of our most talented people to for more of our most talented people to for more of our most talented people to go be heretics in this part of the go be heretics in this part of the go be heretics in this part of the American story right now? American story right now? American story right now? >> There's two incentives. One is just like >> There's two incentives. One is just like >> There's two incentives. One is just like recognition recognition recognition that we need the heretics. I think Hyman that we need the heretics. I think Hyman that we need the heretics. I think Hyman Rick over en enjoyed his celebrity for a Rick over en enjoyed his celebrity for a Rick over en enjoyed his celebrity for a big period of time and just being known big period of time and just being known big period of time and just being known as the guy who did this is itself a sort as the guy who did this is itself a sort as the guy who did this is itself a sort of reward. Then the second part of this of reward. Then the second part of this of reward. Then the second part of this is is definitely financial like one of is is definitely financial like one of is is definitely financial like one of the arguments I've been making is you the arguments I've been making is you the arguments I've been making is you the cynical view of of defense the the cynical view of of defense the the cynical view of of defense the defense industrial complex in particular defense industrial complex in particular defense industrial complex in particular is something like these are greedy is something like these are greedy is something like these are greedy wararm mongers well they picked the wararm mongers well they picked the wararm mongers well they picked the wrong industry then because like on the wrong industry then because like on the wrong industry then because like on the greedy side you should be in tech you greedy side you should be in tech you greedy side you should be in tech you should be in some other business. These should be in some other business. These should be in some other business. These are these are crappy businesses you know are these are crappy businesses you know are these are crappy businesses you know they have like 9% operating margins or they have like 9% operating margins or they have like 9% operating margins or something. It's they're not they're something. It's they're not they're something. It's they're not they're they're valued at like less than two they're valued at like less than two they're valued at like less than two times revenue. So we actually need to times revenue. So we actually need to times revenue. So we actually need to make our primes more valuable and that make our primes more valuable and that make our primes more valuable and that would help us continue to attract the would help us continue to attract the would help us continue to attract the heretics. How do you make the primes heretics. How do you make the primes heretics. How do you make the primes more valuable? The fil critique of the more valuable? The fil critique of the more valuable? The fil critique of the primes is somehow they're the problem. primes is somehow they're the problem. primes is somehow they're the problem. The system's the problem. The primes are The system's the problem. The primes are The system's the problem. The primes are just downstream of the consequence of just downstream of the consequence of just downstream of the consequence of the incentives the government gives. And the incentives the government gives. And the incentives the government gives. And I think the the worst incentive is cost I think the the worst incentive is cost I think the the worst incentive is cost plus contracting. Your upside is is plus contracting. Your upside is is plus contracting. Your upside is is capitated. You're not supposed to take capitated. You're not supposed to take capitated. You're not supposed to take any risk. The government basically pays any risk. The government basically pays any risk. The government basically pays for your R&D. So you have no skin in the for your R&D. So you have no skin in the for your R&D. So you have no skin in the game. And yeah, you're still able to game. And yeah, you're still able to game. And yeah, you're still able to make a small number of exquisite things, make a small number of exquisite things, make a small number of exquisite things, but that system is anti- heresy. Like but that system is anti- heresy. Like but that system is anti- heresy. Like you can only do the conventional thing you can only do the conventional thing you can only do the conventional thing that the government's agreeing that you that the government's agreeing that you that the government's agreeing that you should do. You think about the Higgins should do. You think about the Higgins should do. You think about the Higgins boat. Andrew Higgins built that boat on boat. Andrew Higgins built that boat on boat. Andrew Higgins built that boat on his own. There was no spec. In fact, his own. There was no spec. In fact, his own. There was no spec. In fact, that's why the Navy kept rejecting it. that's why the Navy kept rejecting it. that's why the Navy kept rejecting it. It wasn't the Navy's idea. But then 92% It wasn't the Navy's idea. But then 92% It wasn't the Navy's idea. But then 92% of all boats in World War II are the of all boats in World War II are the of all boats in World War II are the Higgins boat. The heresy is the boat Higgins boat. The heresy is the boat Higgins boat. The heresy is the boat that won the war. You know, how do you that won the war. You know, how do you that won the war. You know, how do you create an economic incentive where create an economic incentive where create an economic incentive where that's the case? And I think companies that's the case? And I think companies that's the case? And I think companies like Andrew are pioneering that on the like Andrew are pioneering that on the like Andrew are pioneering that on the hardware side where it's like, hey, I'm hardware side where it's like, hey, I'm hardware side where it's like, hey, I'm building a product. These are my specs. building a product. These are my specs. building a product. These are my specs. These are my opinions. I'm absorbing the These are my opinions. I'm absorbing the These are my opinions. I'm absorbing the risk. You should buy it if you like it risk. You should buy it if you like it risk. You should buy it if you like it or not. Part of the reason for profound or not. Part of the reason for profound or not. Part of the reason for profound optimism right now is is like I would optimism right now is is like I would optimism right now is is like I would not have have started all this advocacy not have have started all this advocacy not have have started all this advocacy if I thought I was just screaming into if I thought I was just screaming into if I thought I was just screaming into the wind. It's like having done this for the wind. It's like having done this for the wind. It's like having done this for 20 years. For for the first solid 10 20 years. For for the first solid 10 20 years. For for the first solid 10 years, we were alone in the darkness. It years, we were alone in the darkness. It years, we were alone in the darkness. It was like SpaceX on the launch side and was like SpaceX on the launch side and was like SpaceX on the launch side and us. And then if you look at the present us. And then if you look at the present us. And then if you look at the present moment, there are now hundreds of moment, there are now hundreds of moment, there are now hundreds of founders who are building in the founders who are building in the founders who are building in the national interest with a US capital national interest with a US capital national interest with a US capital stack. one of our other advantages of stack. one of our other advantages of stack. one of our other advantages of over a hundred billion dollars invested over a hundred billion dollars invested over a hundred billion dollars invested in the projects that they're doing that in the projects that they're doing that in the projects that they're doing that are actually changing how the department are actually changing how the department are actually changing how the department thinks about the future. Like this is thinks about the future. Like this is thinks about the future. Like this is the window in the moment for this stuff the window in the moment for this stuff the window in the moment for this stuff to happen. I increasingly in to happen. I increasingly in to happen. I increasingly in conversations that I have in in in the conversations that I have in in in the conversations that I have in in in the in the Pentagon, I hear some of these in the Pentagon, I hear some of these in the Pentagon, I hear some of these new entrance are talked about as plan A. new entrance are talked about as plan A. new entrance are talked about as plan A. It's not plan B. It's not, hey, we'll It's not plan B. It's not, hey, we'll It's not plan B. It's not, hey, we'll see. Maybe this will work in the future. see. Maybe this will work in the future. see. Maybe this will work in the future. It's like, no, no, this is the plan and It's like, no, no, this is the plan and It's like, no, no, this is the plan and we'll we'll have to have backups if that we'll we'll have to have backups if that we'll we'll have to have backups if that doesn't work. that is unrecognizable doesn't work. that is unrecognizable doesn't work. that is unrecognizable from the world I started in in 2006. from the world I started in in 2006. from the world I started in in 2006. >> If you were the president for a day >> If you were the president for a day >> If you were the president for a day tomorrow, what would be your executive tomorrow, what would be your executive tomorrow, what would be your executive orders? Like what what would be the orders? Like what what would be the orders? Like what what would be the things that you think could carry the things that you think could carry the things that you think could carry the most freight to create some of the most freight to create some of the most freight to create some of the change that that you want to see? change that that you want to see? change that that you want to see? >> I have narrow ideas. Like this is a >> I have narrow ideas. Like this is a >> I have narrow ideas. Like this is a narrow idea, but I would try to blow it narrow idea, but I would try to blow it narrow idea, but I would try to blow it up. Okay, you want to bring up. Okay, you want to bring up. Okay, you want to bring pharmaceutical production back to the pharmaceutical production back to the pharmaceutical production back to the US. US. US. If you try to do that for generics, the If you try to do that for generics, the If you try to do that for generics, the business case will never work. It's it's business case will never work. It's it's business case will never work. It's it's too hard. It's too much of a subsidy. too hard. It's too much of a subsidy. too hard. It's too much of a subsidy. Um, but what you really want is you want Um, but what you really want is you want Um, but what you really want is you want to redevelop a skilled workforce that to redevelop a skilled workforce that to redevelop a skilled workforce that understands how to make drugs again and understands how to make drugs again and understands how to make drugs again and you want the production capacity that in you want the production capacity that in you want the production capacity that in a time of crisis you could go from say a time of crisis you could go from say a time of crisis you could go from say making branded drugs to generics. So why making branded drugs to generics. So why making branded drugs to generics. So why don't we manipulate patent length and don't we manipulate patent length and don't we manipulate patent length and say look drug companies if you make your say look drug companies if you make your say look drug companies if you make your worldwide supply of your branded drugs worldwide supply of your branded drugs worldwide supply of your branded drugs here in the US I will extend your patent here in the US I will extend your patent here in the US I will extend your patent length such that you recover 2x your length such that you recover 2x your length such that you recover 2x your capex investment to go do that. That's a capex investment to go do that. That's a capex investment to go do that. That's a simple business case that every pharma simple business case that every pharma simple business case that every pharma company would underwrite in a heartbeat company would underwrite in a heartbeat company would underwrite in a heartbeat and it provides the catalyst to go and it provides the catalyst to go and it provides the catalyst to go generate that capacity. I think there generate that capacity. I think there generate that capacity. I think there are a lot of things in the American are a lot of things in the American are a lot of things in the American economy that look like that. We go back economy that look like that. We go back economy that look like that. We go back to the story I was saying between to the story I was saying between to the story I was saying between prosperity and freedom that you know prosperity and freedom that you know prosperity and freedom that you know Chrysler built minivans and missiles and Chrysler built minivans and missiles and Chrysler built minivans and missiles and Ford built satellites until 1990, Ford built satellites until 1990, Ford built satellites until 1990, General Mills, Kodak, like you just go General Mills, Kodak, like you just go General Mills, Kodak, like you just go down the list that the entire economy down the list that the entire economy down the list that the entire economy looked like that. looked like that. looked like that. I think it's a consequence of being the I think it's a consequence of being the I think it's a consequence of being the really the sole superpower and the really the sole superpower and the really the sole superpower and the Pentagon, the old Pentagon in Pentagon, the old Pentagon in Pentagon, the old Pentagon in particular, being the last bastion of particular, being the last bastion of particular, being the last bastion of communism except for Cuba. Like like communism except for Cuba. Like like communism except for Cuba. Like like every country gave up on communism, every country gave up on communism, every country gave up on communism, including Russia and China except for including Russia and China except for including Russia and China except for Cuba and the Department of Defense. Cuba and the Department of Defense. Cuba and the Department of Defense. That made it both a bad business and That made it both a bad business and That made it both a bad business and then seemingly no threat. So you could then seemingly no threat. So you could then seemingly no threat. So you could just be a prosperity company. You' be a just be a prosperity company. You' be a just be a prosperity company. You' be a single-purpose company that just cared single-purpose company that just cared single-purpose company that just cared about being a company. I'm not sure about being a company. I'm not sure about being a company. I'm not sure that's actually like a stable or healthy that's actually like a stable or healthy that's actually like a stable or healthy society or civilization that we have to society or civilization that we have to society or civilization that we have to recognize that we have obligations recognize that we have obligations recognize that we have obligations across freedom and prosperity. across freedom and prosperity. across freedom and prosperity. >> You mentioned the uh the notion that we >> You mentioned the uh the notion that we >> You mentioned the uh the notion that we are crazy and can pivot and attack are crazy and can pivot and attack are crazy and can pivot and attack opportunity is an amazing part of the US opportunity is an amazing part of the US opportunity is an amazing part of the US culture. What do you think are what's culture. What do you think are what's culture. What do you think are what's the other end of that other side of that the other end of that other side of that the other end of that other side of that coin? What are the negative aspects of coin? What are the negative aspects of coin? What are the negative aspects of US culture in your view? And I'm gonna US culture in your view? And I'm gonna US culture in your view? And I'm gonna ask the same question zoomed in on ask the same question zoomed in on ask the same question zoomed in on Palunteer specifically of how to Palunteer specifically of how to Palunteer specifically of how to cultivate the culture that you want. cultivate the culture that you want. cultivate the culture that you want. Palunteer seems to have an incredibly Palunteer seems to have an incredibly Palunteer seems to have an incredibly distinctive culture. Um I want to ask distinctive culture. Um I want to ask distinctive culture. Um I want to ask about Sham bombs and and things like about Sham bombs and and things like about Sham bombs and and things like this uh inside the inside the company. this uh inside the inside the company. this uh inside the inside the company. But first at the at the US level, what But first at the at the US level, what But first at the at the US level, what are things that you wish were different are things that you wish were different are things that you wish were different here about our culture? here about our culture? here about our culture? >> Some problems required sustained effort, >> Some problems required sustained effort, >> Some problems required sustained effort, right? So, if you can pivot really right? So, if you can pivot really right? So, if you can pivot really quickly, maybe you pivot it to solving quickly, maybe you pivot it to solving quickly, maybe you pivot it to solving the problem, but that means you can the problem, but that means you can the problem, but that means you can pivot away from solving the problem and pivot away from solving the problem and pivot away from solving the problem and get distracted and and lose sight of get distracted and and lose sight of get distracted and and lose sight of what you're trying to accomplish here. what you're trying to accomplish here. what you're trying to accomplish here. Um, so that it's like a feature bug, you Um, so that it's like a feature bug, you Um, so that it's like a feature bug, you know, it's it's not an unequivocal know, it's it's not an unequivocal know, it's it's not an unequivocal feature, but if you're go if you're in a feature, but if you're go if you're in a feature, but if you're go if you're in a competition, you want to play to your competition, you want to play to your competition, you want to play to your strengths and that usually involves strengths and that usually involves strengths and that usually involves things that the adversary is unable to things that the adversary is unable to things that the adversary is unable to do. You know, it helps that we kind of do. You know, it helps that we kind of do. You know, it helps that we kind of the nature of populating the US was that the nature of populating the US was that the nature of populating the US was that all the heretics from the old world came all the heretics from the old world came all the heretics from the old world came here, right? Uh so we have an unfair here, right? Uh so we have an unfair here, right? Uh so we have an unfair advantage on that. And then in terms of advantage on that. And then in terms of advantage on that. And then in terms of maintaining a culture, the critical maintaining a culture, the critical maintaining a culture, the critical lesson I've learned over and over again lesson I've learned over and over again lesson I've learned over and over again is like the entropy of the universe is is like the entropy of the universe is is like the entropy of the universe is against you. Like if you don't invest in against you. Like if you don't invest in against you. Like if you don't invest in your culture every single day, you will your culture every single day, you will your culture every single day, you will lose it. There's nothing about culture lose it. There's nothing about culture lose it. There's nothing about culture that is self- sustaining. That's as true that is self- sustaining. That's as true that is self- sustaining. That's as true for America, the country, as it is for for America, the country, as it is for for America, the country, as it is for your company. Uh and then the best your company. Uh and then the best your company. Uh and then the best cultures are really almost cultlike. You cultures are really almost cultlike. You cultures are really almost cultlike. You know, uh your culture is highly know, uh your culture is highly know, uh your culture is highly differentiated. It should actually kind differentiated. It should actually kind differentiated. It should actually kind of be hard for someone to inorganically of be hard for someone to inorganically of be hard for someone to inorganically insert into your culture. Otherwise, insert into your culture. Otherwise, insert into your culture. Otherwise, it's not a very differentiated culture it's not a very differentiated culture it's not a very differentiated culture whatsoever. That requires flag bears. It whatsoever. That requires flag bears. It whatsoever. That requires flag bears. It requires people who are true believers. requires people who are true believers. requires people who are true believers. You know, you need to So, it starts with You know, you need to So, it starts with You know, you need to So, it starts with recruiting. Like, not not even not every recruiting. Like, not not even not every recruiting. Like, not not even not every human has a disposition that they want human has a disposition that they want human has a disposition that they want to be part of a cult essentially. Some to be part of a cult essentially. Some to be part of a cult essentially. Some of them are just structurally of them are just structurally of them are just structurally mercenaries and they're evaluating mercenaries and they're evaluating mercenaries and they're evaluating everything in life really through the everything in life really through the everything in life really through the lens of what's my next job. And you you lens of what's my next job. And you you lens of what's my next job. And you you want to try to build your company with want to try to build your company with want to try to build your company with people who really think of the present people who really think of the present people who really think of the present job as the calling and uh that engenders job as the calling and uh that engenders job as the calling and uh that engenders the primacy of winning. Like they're the primacy of winning. Like they're the primacy of winning. Like they're always thinking about how to win today always thinking about how to win today always thinking about how to win today because that's the whole game. If you because that's the whole game. If you because that's the whole game. If you win today, you have the right to win win today, you have the right to win win today, you have the right to win tomorrow. Uh rather than you know the tomorrow. Uh rather than you know the tomorrow. Uh rather than you know the the other side of that is getting lost the other side of that is getting lost the other side of that is getting lost in what I wish the world could be this I in what I wish the world could be this I in what I wish the world could be this I wish the company could be this way or wish the company could be this way or wish the company could be this way or that way or something. Um which is that way or something. Um which is that way or something. Um which is unmed. It's an aesthetic of how you wish unmed. It's an aesthetic of how you wish unmed. It's an aesthetic of how you wish the world would work rather than both the world would work rather than both the world would work rather than both how the world does work and what is how the world does work and what is how the world does work and what is required to win today. required to win today. required to win today. >> In a company like Palunteer, what do you >> In a company like Palunteer, what do you >> In a company like Palunteer, what do you personally wrestle with the most? Like personally wrestle with the most? Like personally wrestle with the most? Like what are the tradeoffs that I'm always what are the tradeoffs that I'm always what are the tradeoffs that I'm always fascinated by trade-offs. It just seems fascinated by trade-offs. It just seems fascinated by trade-offs. It just seems like so much so much of what happens like so much so much of what happens like so much so much of what happens hinges on a couple key choices. Can't do hinges on a couple key choices. Can't do hinges on a couple key choices. Can't do everything for everyone. What do you everything for everyone. What do you everything for everyone. What do you personally wrestle with the most? The personally wrestle with the most? The personally wrestle with the most? The most important decisions from my seat is most important decisions from my seat is most important decisions from my seat is really what projects are worth outsized really what projects are worth outsized really what projects are worth outsized investment that we think are going to investment that we think are going to investment that we think are going to define the future of you know what our define the future of you know what our define the future of you know what our customers need customers need customers need and therefore the future of the business and therefore the future of the business and therefore the future of the business over the next 5 years. Um and so then over the next 5 years. Um and so then over the next 5 years. Um and so then how do you get the right talent on those how do you get the right talent on those how do you get the right talent on those projects? How do you discover what those projects? How do you discover what those projects? How do you discover what those projects are? I like to think about it. projects are? I like to think about it. projects are? I like to think about it. It's like my backlog is something I rep prioritize is something I rep prioritize dynamically relative to reality. So like dynamically relative to reality. So like dynamically relative to reality. So like yeah here's my road map. here's all the yeah here's my road map. here's all the yeah here's my road map. here's all the things I want. It's like a approximation things I want. It's like a approximation things I want. It's like a approximation at a point in time of what I'm what I at a point in time of what I'm what I at a point in time of what I'm what I what I think are the most valuable what I think are the most valuable what I think are the most valuable things to build. The second some new things to build. The second some new things to build. The second some new data comes in, I'm going to rip that up data comes in, I'm going to rip that up data comes in, I'm going to rip that up and rep prioritize it. Having a culture and rep prioritize it. Having a culture and rep prioritize it. Having a culture that lets you do that because that is that lets you do that because that is that lets you do that because that is really [ __ ] painful. Like people really [ __ ] painful. Like people really [ __ ] painful. Like people don't like it, their world is shaken up, don't like it, their world is shaken up, don't like it, their world is shaken up, it it generates a lot of chaos, but it's it it generates a lot of chaos, but it's it it generates a lot of chaos, but it's the right thing to do. And so then the right thing to do. And so then the right thing to do. And so then managing that so that your culture managing that so that your culture managing that so that your culture enables you to do that and that the enables you to do that and that the enables you to do that and that the conviction of what that the cost of conviction of what that the cost of conviction of what that the cost of doing it is worth it because the return doing it is worth it because the return doing it is worth it because the return is so outsized. That's like the whole is so outsized. That's like the whole is so outsized. That's like the whole business. business. business. >> I'm extremely sympathetic to that point >> I'm extremely sympathetic to that point >> I'm extremely sympathetic to that point of view of changing plans very quickly. of view of changing plans very quickly. of view of changing plans very quickly. I've also experienced the whiplash that I've also experienced the whiplash that I've also experienced the whiplash that it creates in a business. How would you it creates in a business. How would you it creates in a business. How would you coach someone trying that believes this coach someone trying that believes this coach someone trying that believes this but understands it's really hard on a but understands it's really hard on a but understands it's really hard on a business if you're constantly changing business if you're constantly changing business if you're constantly changing your mind and pivoting your resources your mind and pivoting your resources your mind and pivoting your resources around? What have you learned about like around? What have you learned about like around? What have you learned about like the ways to talk about that with your the ways to talk about that with your the ways to talk about that with your team of implementing it, you know, of team of implementing it, you know, of team of implementing it, you know, of communicating around it? I'm I'm curious communicating around it? I'm I'm curious communicating around it? I'm I'm curious how you do it. how you do it. how you do it. >> There always degrees of these things, >> There always degrees of these things, >> There always degrees of these things, but to to the the first order issue, I'd but to to the the first order issue, I'd but to to the the first order issue, I'd say say say um is it hard because you want to exist um is it hard because you want to exist um is it hard because you want to exist in a business that isn't painful. You in a business that isn't painful. You in a business that isn't painful. You know, there's a great Greg Lemon quote know, there's a great Greg Lemon quote know, there's a great Greg Lemon quote who's a world championship cyclist and who's a world championship cyclist and who's a world championship cyclist and someone was asking him about a someone was asking him about a someone was asking him about a championship performance and he kind of championship performance and he kind of championship performance and he kind of almost looked incredulous and he was almost looked incredulous and he was almost looked incredulous and he was like, you know, it doesn't get easier, like, you know, it doesn't get easier, like, you know, it doesn't get easier, right? You just go faster. Uh, and so right? You just go faster. Uh, and so right? You just go faster. Uh, and so what do you think a championship what do you think a championship what do you think a championship performance feels like? It feels shitty. performance feels like? It feels shitty. performance feels like? It feels shitty. It's really painful. It's really hard. It's really painful. It's really hard. It's really painful. It's really hard. And your ability to win is basically, And your ability to win is basically, And your ability to win is basically, can you survive more pain than your can you survive more pain than your can you survive more pain than your competitors can? Uh, and so then there's competitors can? Uh, and so then there's competitors can? Uh, and so then there's this weird phenomenon where if you're this weird phenomenon where if you're this weird phenomenon where if you're doing something world class, it's really doing something world class, it's really doing something world class, it's really painful. Also, if you're totally painful. Also, if you're totally painful. Also, if you're totally failing, it's really painful. So then failing, it's really painful. So then failing, it's really painful. So then having some discrimination to know which having some discrimination to know which having some discrimination to know which of these two worlds am I in? And and the of these two worlds am I in? And and the of these two worlds am I in? And and the worst world to kind of be in is where worst world to kind of be in is where worst world to kind of be in is where you have no signal. It's like you're you have no signal. It's like you're you have no signal. It's like you're just plotting along, but it's managed just plotting along, but it's managed just plotting along, but it's managed decline is really what's happening. So decline is really what's happening. So decline is really what's happening. So then is the pain we're experiencing then is the pain we're experiencing then is the pain we're experiencing resulting is it generating results or resulting is it generating results or resulting is it generating results or not? And orienting people to that? The not? And orienting people to that? The not? And orienting people to that? The other part I'd say is you can't move the other part I'd say is you can't move the other part I'd say is you can't move the whole company at once. Even a company as whole company at once. Even a company as whole company at once. Even a company as small as ours, there's only 4,500 small as ours, there's only 4,500 small as ours, there's only 4,500 people. Every change is itself a mini people. Every change is itself a mini people. Every change is itself a mini insurgency inside the company. And I insurgency inside the company. And I insurgency inside the company. And I would think about it like you're would think about it like you're would think about it like you're campaigning and right and it's like who campaigning and right and it's like who campaigning and right and it's like who are the people who already believe what are the people who already believe what are the people who already believe what you're saying? How do you add you're saying? How do you add you're saying? How do you add incremental weight behind what they're incremental weight behind what they're incremental weight behind what they're doing? How do you help them succeed doing? How do you help them succeed doing? How do you help them succeed more? Are you trying to generate more? Are you trying to generate more? Are you trying to generate momentum or you trying to deal with the momentum or you trying to deal with the momentum or you trying to deal with the drag of bringing everyone along? And my drag of bringing everyone along? And my drag of bringing everyone along? And my experience has been momentum is the experience has been momentum is the experience has been momentum is the thing that aligns the whole company. And thing that aligns the whole company. And thing that aligns the whole company. And so you should be waking up every day in so you should be waking up every day in so you should be waking up every day in the in the midst of these pivots just the in the midst of these pivots just the in the midst of these pivots just working on momentum. People will catch working on momentum. People will catch working on momentum. People will catch up. up. up. >> What are your favorite ways to do that? >> What are your favorite ways to do that? >> What are your favorite ways to do that? Like to create this is kind of a Like to create this is kind of a Like to create this is kind of a communication question. Palunteer gets communication question. Palunteer gets communication question. Palunteer gets so much attention now from public so much attention now from public so much attention now from public markets and everywhere. It's like an markets and everywhere. It's like an markets and everywhere. It's like an it's one of these exciting places. So it's one of these exciting places. So it's one of these exciting places. So there's more scrutiny on the company, there's more scrutiny on the company, there's more scrutiny on the company, its choices, what it does. You don't get its choices, what it does. You don't get its choices, what it does. You don't get to operate in obscurity like you did in to operate in obscurity like you did in to operate in obscurity like you did in the first, you know, the first batch of the first, you know, the first batch of the first, you know, the first batch of time. What are your favorite methods for time. What are your favorite methods for time. What are your favorite methods for that internally? Very tactically, that internally? Very tactically, that internally? Very tactically, >> celebrating the heretics, celebrating >> celebrating the heretics, celebrating >> celebrating the heretics, celebrating the successes, creating venues where the successes, creating venues where the successes, creating venues where everyone has some ability to revolt. everyone has some ability to revolt. everyone has some ability to revolt. Every employes first AMA with me, I end Every employes first AMA with me, I end Every employes first AMA with me, I end it by telling them to tell me to [ __ ] it by telling them to tell me to [ __ ] it by telling them to tell me to [ __ ] off to my face. It's a way of, you know, off to my face. It's a way of, you know, off to my face. It's a way of, you know, it's very uncomfortable for them it's very uncomfortable for them it's very uncomfortable for them actually. They're almost not sure if actually. They're almost not sure if actually. They're almost not sure if this is like entrapping them in into this is like entrapping them in into this is like entrapping them in into something that's going to get them in something that's going to get them in something that's going to get them in trouble. But, you know, how can you say trouble. But, you know, how can you say trouble. But, you know, how can you say you have a flat culture if you can't you have a flat culture if you can't you have a flat culture if you can't tell the boss to [ __ ] off? It's like a tell the boss to [ __ ] off? It's like a tell the boss to [ __ ] off? It's like a small gesture, but it's trying to set small gesture, but it's trying to set small gesture, but it's trying to set the conditions to understand like, hey, the conditions to understand like, hey, the conditions to understand like, hey, we are a company that's committed to we are a company that's committed to we are a company that's committed to taking the very best idea regardless of taking the very best idea regardless of taking the very best idea regardless of where it comes from. Um, and then where it comes from. Um, and then where it comes from. Um, and then putting all of our wood behind those putting all of our wood behind those putting all of our wood behind those arrows. And so, and most of those ideas arrows. And so, and most of those ideas arrows. And so, and most of those ideas are usually some variance from what are usually some variance from what are usually some variance from what we're currently doing. Otherwise, it'd we're currently doing. Otherwise, it'd we're currently doing. Otherwise, it'd already be the current best idea. So already be the current best idea. So already be the current best idea. So we've institutionalized like you got to we've institutionalized like you got to we've institutionalized like you got to be careful how much you institutionalize be careful how much you institutionalize be careful how much you institutionalize but minimally two times a year we have but minimally two times a year we have but minimally two times a year we have these these weeks of revolt where people these these weeks of revolt where people these these weeks of revolt where people are allowed to go build whatever they are allowed to go build whatever they are allowed to go build whatever they want where almost I like want the people want where almost I like want the people want where almost I like want the people to have a chip on their shoulder like to have a chip on their shoulder like to have a chip on their shoulder like the whole point is to prove that we've the whole point is to prove that we've the whole point is to prove that we've been [ __ ] up and doing it wrong and been [ __ ] up and doing it wrong and been [ __ ] up and doing it wrong and you know inspire us with the thing that you know inspire us with the thing that you know inspire us with the thing that you've built and then if you have a you've built and then if you have a you've built and then if you have a culture that is just profoundly truth culture that is just profoundly truth culture that is just profoundly truth seeking and it's like the truth is so seeking and it's like the truth is so seeking and it's like the truth is so charismatic that like now that I've seen charismatic that like now that I've seen charismatic that like now that I've seen it I can't unsee it like this is it I can't unsee it like this is it I can't unsee it like this is obviously the right answer let's go it's obviously the right answer let's go it's obviously the right answer let's go it's not As hard as it may sound to get to to not As hard as it may sound to get to to not As hard as it may sound to get to to move and pivot on these things, move and pivot on these things, move and pivot on these things, >> the AI time is so remarkable. We all >> the AI time is so remarkable. We all >> the AI time is so remarkable. We all have to deal with this new thing at the have to deal with this new thing at the have to deal with this new thing at the same time, it's uh probably like any same time, it's uh probably like any same time, it's uh probably like any crisis, there's both opportunity and crisis, there's both opportunity and crisis, there's both opportunity and danger bundled in the coming of AI for danger bundled in the coming of AI for danger bundled in the coming of AI for Palunteer 2. How do you receive this new Palunteer 2. How do you receive this new Palunteer 2. How do you receive this new technology and make sure that you get technology and make sure that you get technology and make sure that you get better because of it and don't get better because of it and don't get better because of it and don't get disrupted because of it? like you were a disrupted because of it? like you were a disrupted because of it? like you were a disruptor with this enterprise ontology disruptor with this enterprise ontology disruptor with this enterprise ontology concept you know killing the old like concept you know killing the old like concept you know killing the old like rigid database systems you had an rigid database systems you had an rigid database systems you had an innovation now like if I wanted to innovation now like if I wanted to innovation now like if I wanted to create a palunteer competitor it would create a palunteer competitor it would create a palunteer competitor it would be much easier just by virtue of the be much easier just by virtue of the be much easier just by virtue of the technology that's available technology that's available technology that's available >> yeah the only way you can do that is by >> yeah the only way you can do that is by >> yeah the only way you can do that is by disrupting yourself so to the point of disrupting yourself so to the point of disrupting yourself so to the point of institutionalizing rebellion and holding institutionalizing rebellion and holding institutionalizing rebellion and holding that up it's like it is the perpetual that up it's like it is the perpetual that up it's like it is the perpetual motor of self-disruption I think about motor of self-disruption I think about motor of self-disruption I think about it as like the most valuable thing is it as like the most valuable thing is it as like the most valuable thing is not to defend demotes or something but not to defend demotes or something but not to defend demotes or something but it's to go charge after the new it's to go charge after the new it's to go charge after the new opportunity opportunity opportunity Um, and one of the things I think is Um, and one of the things I think is Um, and one of the things I think is unique about AI is how much it plays to unique about AI is how much it plays to unique about AI is how much it plays to the beginner's mind. Obviously, the the beginner's mind. Obviously, the the beginner's mind. Obviously, the first adopters of AI for us were the first adopters of AI for us were the first adopters of AI for us were the youngest hires. And um, to the point of youngest hires. And um, to the point of youngest hires. And um, to the point of generate momentum, I didn't really generate momentum, I didn't really generate momentum, I didn't really bother with the people who were kind of bother with the people who were kind of bother with the people who were kind of cynical or cynical or cynical or dismissive of it. I let the young people dismissive of it. I let the young people dismissive of it. I let the young people generate just overwhelming productivity generate just overwhelming productivity generate just overwhelming productivity that almost in some sense humiliated or that almost in some sense humiliated or that almost in some sense humiliated or inspired other people to get on board. inspired other people to get on board. inspired other people to get on board. Uh, and and there's this a similar Uh, and and there's this a similar Uh, and and there's this a similar phenomenon. There was like a weird phenomenon. There was like a weird phenomenon. There was like a weird almost like out-of- body experience as almost like out-of- body experience as almost like out-of- body experience as someone who's been there 20 years or someone who's been there 20 years or someone who's been there 20 years or someone who had been in Palant for three someone who had been in Palant for three someone who had been in Palant for three years is like you know what the best years is like you know what the best years is like you know what the best people are doing this are really the people are doing this are really the people are doing this are really the young people by which he meant people young people by which he meant people young people by which he meant people who had been there like 3 months you who had been there like 3 months you who had been there like 3 months you know and that recognition of of okay so know and that recognition of of okay so know and that recognition of of okay so here we have someone who's not a here we have someone who's not a here we have someone who's not a gatekeeper he's actually trying to find gatekeeper he's actually trying to find gatekeeper he's actually trying to find the insurgents and empower them and the insurgents and empower them and the insurgents and empower them and place them in places where they can go place them in places where they can go place them in places where they can go forth and and do badass [ __ ] and we can forth and and do badass [ __ ] and we can forth and and do badass [ __ ] and we can all learn together by doing so it's been all learn together by doing so it's been all learn together by doing so it's been actually really fun with the rate of actually really fun with the rate of actually really fun with the rate of transformation for AI and what it's transformation for AI and what it's transformation for AI and what it's really enabled to possible. really enabled to possible. really enabled to possible. >> Everyone's trying to answer this >> Everyone's trying to answer this >> Everyone's trying to answer this question of like, okay, we have AI, like question of like, okay, we have AI, like question of like, okay, we have AI, like who's gonna where's going to the value who's gonna where's going to the value who's gonna where's going to the value going to get captured in the in the going to get captured in the in the going to get captured in the in the whole like stack or chain or however you whole like stack or chain or however you whole like stack or chain or however you want to think about it. What's your want to think about it. What's your want to think about it. What's your answer to that question? answer to that question? answer to that question? >> We think that the value is going to >> We think that the value is going to >> We think that the value is going to acrew at the at the chips layer and at acrew at the at the chips layer and at acrew at the at the chips layer and at at the ontology layer. If you kind of at the ontology layer. If you kind of at the ontology layer. If you kind of squint at the stack, I'll skip over some squint at the stack, I'll skip over some squint at the stack, I'll skip over some parts of this, but you have chips, you parts of this, but you have chips, you parts of this, but you have chips, you have the model providers, you have AI have the model providers, you have AI have the model providers, you have AI infrastructure, which is where we think infrastructure, which is where we think infrastructure, which is where we think the ontology sits, and then you have AI the ontology sits, and then you have AI the ontology sits, and then you have AI applications. And what you kind of applications. And what you kind of applications. And what you kind of observe out there is the model companies observe out there is the model companies observe out there is the model companies have to run up the stack away from just have to run up the stack away from just have to run up the stack away from just providing a pure model because the model providing a pure model because the model providing a pure model because the model is commoditized. It's really everything is commoditized. It's really everything is commoditized. It's really everything they build around the model that is a they build around the model that is a they build around the model that is a solution that they're going to try to solution that they're going to try to solution that they're going to try to build value off of. When you look at the build value off of. When you look at the build value off of. When you look at the AI pure play applications they're AI pure play applications they're AI pure play applications they're running down as they start to scale running down as they start to scale running down as they start to scale their businesses have to deal with more their businesses have to deal with more their businesses have to deal with more customers more of their customers data customers more of their customers data customers more of their customers data they're reinventing the AI they're reinventing the AI they're reinventing the AI infrastructure essentially AIP from infrastructure essentially AIP from infrastructure essentially AIP from first principles recognizing why they first principles recognizing why they first principles recognizing why they need it. Now, of course, through some need it. Now, of course, through some need it. Now, of course, through some divine intervention, we've built this divine intervention, we've built this divine intervention, we've built this platform over the last 20 years, and you platform over the last 20 years, and you platform over the last 20 years, and you can say arguably the meat of it since can say arguably the meat of it since can say arguably the meat of it since 2015 with Foundry leading to AIP. That 2015 with Foundry leading to AIP. That 2015 with Foundry leading to AIP. That gives us a huge head start on these gives us a huge head start on these gives us a huge head start on these things. And even if these models help things. And even if these models help things. And even if these models help you code faster, there's there's there's you code faster, there's there's there's you code faster, there's there's there's the code and there's the the secrets the code and there's the the secrets the code and there's the the secrets that actually is behind why we built the that actually is behind why we built the that actually is behind why we built the code. So, where are we going to be in code. So, where are we going to be in code. So, where are we going to be in two years? We're going to be in two two years? We're going to be in two two years? We're going to be in two years after that. So, I think that's we years after that. So, I think that's we years after that. So, I think that's we feel like we're in a very great position feel like we're in a very great position feel like we're in a very great position there. that's expressed by like the way there. that's expressed by like the way there. that's expressed by like the way we measure this is how quickly can I we measure this is how quickly can I we measure this is how quickly can I deliver value for my customers. You deliver value for my customers. You deliver value for my customers. You know, how quickly can I deliver know, how quickly can I deliver know, how quickly can I deliver enterprise autonomy or fundamentally enterprise autonomy or fundamentally enterprise autonomy or fundamentally change my customers businesses? And not change my customers businesses? And not change my customers businesses? And not only has that number been awesome, like only has that number been awesome, like only has that number been awesome, like I'd say two years ago we could do that I'd say two years ago we could do that I'd say two years ago we could do that inside of eight weeks. Now it feels like inside of eight weeks. Now it feels like inside of eight weeks. Now it feels like a week, you know, so like that that rate a week, you know, so like that that rate a week, you know, so like that that rate is compounding dramatically. One thing is compounding dramatically. One thing is compounding dramatically. One thing I'm really fascinated about you is for I'm really fascinated about you is for I'm really fascinated about you is for so long you were sort of like an if you so long you were sort of like an if you so long you were sort of like an if you know you know guy very much behind the know you know guy very much behind the know you know guy very much behind the scenes you know if you asked around like scenes you know if you asked around like scenes you know if you asked around like the person or one of the key people the person or one of the key people the person or one of the key people making this business work the forward making this business work the forward making this business work the forward deployed thing you know lots of examples deployed thing you know lots of examples deployed thing you know lots of examples and it seems like you've chosen to be a and it seems like you've chosen to be a and it seems like you've chosen to be a everybody knows guy what is behind that everybody knows guy what is behind that everybody knows guy what is behind that choice like why why make that shift choice like why why make that shift choice like why why make that shift >> I'd say I'm a bit reluctant about the >> I'd say I'm a bit reluctant about the >> I'd say I'm a bit reluctant about the shift but shift but shift but I can't look my kids in the eye and not I can't look my kids in the eye and not I can't look my kids in the eye and not say that I'm ringing the bell that we're say that I'm ringing the bell that we're say that I'm ringing the bell that we're in an undeclared state of emergency. in an undeclared state of emergency. in an undeclared state of emergency. That really the first major public thing That really the first major public thing That really the first major public thing I put out there was the 18 thesis which I put out there was the 18 thesis which I put out there was the 18 thesis which is to say like we're in emergency. We've is to say like we're in emergency. We've is to say like we're in emergency. We've lost deterrence. I've been doing this lost deterrence. I've been doing this lost deterrence. I've been doing this for roughly 19 years at that point. Here for roughly 19 years at that point. Here for roughly 19 years at that point. Here is my diagnostic of what's wrong. The is my diagnostic of what's wrong. The is my diagnostic of what's wrong. The shot clock is ticking. Like we've got to shot clock is ticking. Like we've got to shot clock is ticking. Like we've got to coales around this problem. Now on a coales around this problem. Now on a coales around this problem. Now on a note of profound optimism, I've seen note of profound optimism, I've seen note of profound optimism, I've seen more change in the department of war in more change in the department of war in more change in the department of war in the last year than the prior 19 years. the last year than the prior 19 years. the last year than the prior 19 years. And I think there to the point of And I think there to the point of And I think there to the point of Americans do the right thing having Americans do the right thing having Americans do the right thing having exhausted all the other options like we exhausted all the other options like we exhausted all the other options like we are definitely in the place where we are are definitely in the place where we are are definitely in the place where we are starting to do the right things and the starting to do the right things and the starting to do the right things and the first derivative and even the second first derivative and even the second first derivative and even the second derivative is positive going faster and derivative is positive going faster and derivative is positive going faster and faster here. faster here. faster here. >> Uh how would you sum up the 18 thesis >> Uh how would you sum up the 18 thesis >> Uh how would you sum up the 18 thesis and I know we've talked about lots of and I know we've talked about lots of and I know we've talked about lots of component parts of it already. Is there component parts of it already. Is there component parts of it already. Is there anything from that that was your first anything from that that was your first anything from that that was your first kind of big public thing that we haven't kind of big public thing that we haven't kind of big public thing that we haven't talked about that you think is talked about that you think is talked about that you think is important? important? important? >> But if I was to synthesize it is we've >> But if I was to synthesize it is we've >> But if I was to synthesize it is we've lost deterrence. The reason this is not lost deterrence. The reason this is not lost deterrence. The reason this is not going to go the way World War II did is going to go the way World War II did is going to go the way World War II did is we don't have the industrial base we had we don't have the industrial base we had we don't have the industrial base we had in World War II. We have to recognize in World War II. We have to recognize in World War II. We have to recognize what are our unique American strengths. what are our unique American strengths. what are our unique American strengths. The person is the program. Like don't The person is the program. Like don't The person is the program. Like don't forget that Edward Hall built the Minute forget that Edward Hall built the Minute forget that Edward Hall built the Minute Man and Shrivever was the Air Force Man and Shrivever was the Air Force Man and Shrivever was the Air Force general that oversaw our ICBMs and that general that oversaw our ICBMs and that general that oversaw our ICBMs and that we call it the Apollo program, but it we call it the Apollo program, but it we call it the Apollo program, but it was actually Gene Crance's program. And was actually Gene Crance's program. And was actually Gene Crance's program. And the primacy of those people and getting the primacy of those people and getting the primacy of those people and getting the right people in those roles is the right people in those roles is the right people in those roles is determinative to the success. It would determinative to the success. It would determinative to the success. It would be like thinking you could found a be like thinking you could found a be like thinking you could found a company by recipe as opposed to like the company by recipe as opposed to like the company by recipe as opposed to like the company's future is determined by the company's future is determined by the company's future is determined by the founders. Uh that's like almost the founders. Uh that's like almost the founders. Uh that's like almost the congenital limiter on what is actually congenital limiter on what is actually congenital limiter on what is actually possible. Um and of all cultures we possible. Um and of all cultures we possible. Um and of all cultures we should understand that. And then should understand that. And then should understand that. And then downstream of that we should recognize downstream of that we should recognize downstream of that we should recognize that there is no process out of this. that there is no process out of this. that there is no process out of this. The reason we're screwed right now is we The reason we're screwed right now is we The reason we're screwed right now is we we prayed at the altar of process. We we prayed at the altar of process. We we prayed at the altar of process. We thought if we follow this requirements thought if we follow this requirements thought if we follow this requirements process and we do this thing, if we just process and we do this thing, if we just process and we do this thing, if we just let the bureaucracy work, it will lead let the bureaucracy work, it will lead let the bureaucracy work, it will lead to a good result. And the only thing to a good result. And the only thing to a good result. And the only thing that leads to is decline. Uh and that if that leads to is decline. Uh and that if that leads to is decline. Uh and that if you look at all the great military you look at all the great military you look at all the great military innovations through history, like innovations through history, like innovations through history, like Churchill built the tank as the head of Churchill built the tank as the head of Churchill built the tank as the head of the Royal Navy because the army, the the Royal Navy because the army, the the Royal Navy because the army, the British army wasn't smart enough to British army wasn't smart enough to British army wasn't smart enough to realize that horses were not going to realize that horses were not going to realize that horses were not going to win the next war. So he called it a land win the next war. So he called it a land win the next war. So he called it a land ship because he could only build ships. ship because he could only build ships. ship because he could only build ships. So it was a land ship, you know. But So it was a land ship, you know. But So it was a land ship, you know. But that's not a one-off. like literally that's not a one-off. like literally that's not a one-off. like literally every major military innovation, every major military innovation, every major military innovation, including the Sidewinder missile, which including the Sidewinder missile, which including the Sidewinder missile, which was like a rogue project that some guy was like a rogue project that some guy was like a rogue project that some guy kind of built with lighters with a new kind of built with lighters with a new kind of built with lighters with a new sort of seeker that totally humiliated sort of seeker that totally humiliated sort of seeker that totally humiliated the Air Force's missile in Vietnam and the Air Force's missile in Vietnam and the Air Force's missile in Vietnam and became now we think of it as the became now we think of it as the became now we think of it as the standard. You know, when Bill Perry standard. You know, when Bill Perry standard. You know, when Bill Perry uh became the the assistant secretary of uh became the the assistant secretary of uh became the the assistant secretary of defense, he was staring down this thing. defense, he was staring down this thing. defense, he was staring down this thing. It's like, hey, I can either try to fix It's like, hey, I can either try to fix It's like, hey, I can either try to fix the system and lose implied, or I can the system and lose implied, or I can the system and lose implied, or I can take the two things I really care about take the two things I really care about take the two things I really care about and make sure they work, GPS and and make sure they work, GPS and and make sure they work, GPS and stealth. at every crossroad it's the stealth. at every crossroad it's the stealth. at every crossroad it's the person who just wants to engage with the person who just wants to engage with the person who just wants to engage with the system we lose and the person who's system we lose and the person who's system we lose and the person who's willing to just put it all on the line willing to just put it all on the line willing to just put it all on the line to make it work and it was kind of a to make it work and it was kind of a to make it work and it was kind of a call to like if you're a latent heretic call to like if you're a latent heretic call to like if you're a latent heretic in the department if you're a latent in the department if you're a latent in the department if you're a latent heretic in defense tech this is the heretic in defense tech this is the heretic in defense tech this is the moment to express your heresy moment to express your heresy moment to express your heresy >> is there anything about uh your >> is there anything about uh your >> is there anything about uh your worldview palunteer etc that you think worldview palunteer etc that you think worldview palunteer etc that you think is would be surprising to an outsider is would be surprising to an outsider is would be surprising to an outsider that we haven't talked about that we haven't talked about that we haven't talked about >> first of all we don't really think of >> first of all we don't really think of >> first of all we don't really think of ourselves as a defense company like ourselves as a defense company like ourselves as a defense company like we're a software company. I think the we're a software company. I think the we're a software company. I think the fact that like half of our business is fact that like half of our business is fact that like half of our business is in government, twothirds of that half is in government, twothirds of that half is in government, twothirds of that half is in defense is actually more normal to a in defense is actually more normal to a in defense is actually more normal to a historical kind of pattern that we've historical kind of pattern that we've historical kind of pattern that we've talked about here than the present. Um, talked about here than the present. Um, talked about here than the present. Um, but the part that I think a lot of but the part that I think a lot of but the part that I think a lot of outsiders misunderstand they somehow outsiders misunderstand they somehow outsiders misunderstand they somehow think we're either in the business of think we're either in the business of think we're either in the business of collecting data or doing surveillance. collecting data or doing surveillance. collecting data or doing surveillance. And that is is probably the part that's And that is is probably the part that's And that is is probably the part that's like least well understood about what like least well understood about what like least well understood about what we're doing. And I think we're doing. And I think we're doing. And I think the part I I so we're we're engaging the part I I so we're we're engaging the part I I so we're we're engaging with the problems as they exist. And so with the problems as they exist. And so with the problems as they exist. And so you can say what is the problem that you can say what is the problem that you can say what is the problem that exists? The core problem that we're set exists? The core problem that we're set exists? The core problem that we're set up to solve is the legitimacy of our up to solve is the legitimacy of our up to solve is the legitimacy of our institutions. Why do doors fall off institutions. Why do doors fall off institutions. Why do doors fall off planes? Why does it seem like our basic planes? Why does it seem like our basic planes? Why does it seem like our basic government services don't work? government services don't work? government services don't work? If you don't address those problems, if If you don't address those problems, if If you don't address those problems, if you don't build that state capacity, you don't build that state capacity, you don't build that state capacity, private sector, public sector, if you private sector, public sector, if you private sector, public sector, if you don't help these institutions get don't help these institutions get don't help these institutions get better, it breeds nealism. breeds this better, it breeds nealism. breeds this better, it breeds nealism. breeds this sense that we should just burn it all to sense that we should just burn it all to sense that we should just burn it all to the ground. There's nothing worth the ground. There's nothing worth the ground. There's nothing worth investing in and that doesn't actually investing in and that doesn't actually investing in and that doesn't actually work. You know, it's strictly a worse work. You know, it's strictly a worse work. You know, it's strictly a worse world. But that sort of energy is what world. But that sort of energy is what world. But that sort of energy is what you're fighting against. Our diagnosis you're fighting against. Our diagnosis you're fighting against. Our diagnosis of this problem, if you thought about of this problem, if you thought about of this problem, if you thought about these institutions, these institutions, these institutions, let's give the seauite government or let's give the seauite government or let's give the seauite government or private sector the benefit of the doubt. private sector the benefit of the doubt. private sector the benefit of the doubt. They have this steering wheel and They have this steering wheel and They have this steering wheel and they're diligently trying to steer the they're diligently trying to steer the they're diligently trying to steer the steering wheel. What they don't steering wheel. What they don't steering wheel. What they don't understand is it's a Jungle Cruise prop understand is it's a Jungle Cruise prop understand is it's a Jungle Cruise prop from Disneyland. Like, it's not from Disneyland. Like, it's not from Disneyland. Like, it's not connected to anything. And then you have connected to anything. And then you have connected to anything. And then you have the people down below who are kind of the people down below who are kind of the people down below who are kind of looking up and saying, "How could my looking up and saying, "How could my looking up and saying, "How could my leaders be so dumb?" You know, that is leaders be so dumb?" You know, that is leaders be so dumb?" You know, that is where that nealism starts. And so the where that nealism starts. And so the where that nealism starts. And so the the what is the point of this operating the what is the point of this operating the what is the point of this operating system? Why are we trying to make these system? Why are we trying to make these system? Why are we trying to make these decisions better? We're trying to create decisions better? We're trying to create decisions better? We're trying to create something that's more responsive for the something that's more responsive for the something that's more responsive for the people who are leading these people who are leading these people who are leading these institutions and the people who do the institutions and the people who do the institutions and the people who do the work. And so much of the 20th century work. And so much of the 20th century work. And so much of the 20th century has been this wild managerial revolution has been this wild managerial revolution has been this wild managerial revolution that has concentrated power away from that has concentrated power away from that has concentrated power away from both these ends to an amorphous middle both these ends to an amorphous middle both these ends to an amorphous middle blob. That's where all the disconnection blob. That's where all the disconnection blob. That's where all the disconnection happens in the steering wheel. So happens in the steering wheel. So happens in the steering wheel. So reasserting that in a way that like our reasserting that in a way that like our reasserting that in a way that like our institutions work for the people that institutions work for the people that institutions work for the people that they're designed to serve and that our they're designed to serve and that our they're designed to serve and that our companies are actually the best in the companies are actually the best in the companies are actually the best in the world and functioning and competitive. world and functioning and competitive. world and functioning and competitive. That's that's how you underwrite freedom That's that's how you underwrite freedom That's that's how you underwrite freedom and prosperity. and prosperity. and prosperity. >> This idea of like you have all this >> This idea of like you have all this >> This idea of like you have all this data, you're doing surveillance, you're data, you're doing surveillance, you're data, you're doing surveillance, you're this like ponopticon in in you know in this like ponopticon in in you know in this like ponopticon in in you know in America or something. Does that weigh on America or something. Does that weigh on America or something. Does that weigh on you? Does it weigh on you that like you you? Does it weigh on you that like you you? Does it weigh on you that like you are sort of cast as like uh as like an are sort of cast as like uh as like an are sort of cast as like uh as like an easy enemy or villain in in in certain easy enemy or villain in in in certain easy enemy or villain in in in certain people's stories? people's stories? people's stories? >> It used to weigh on me. Part of it is >> It used to weigh on me. Part of it is >> It used to weigh on me. Part of it is like, okay, you've been doing it for 20 like, okay, you've been doing it for 20 like, okay, you've been doing it for 20 years. Like, okay, how long can this years. Like, okay, how long can this years. Like, okay, how long can this stuff keep weighing on you, but I I stuff keep weighing on you, but I I stuff keep weighing on you, but I I think it would be fair to say it weighs think it would be fair to say it weighs think it would be fair to say it weighs on every new employee when they come in. on every new employee when they come in. on every new employee when they come in. There's some journey of dealing with There's some journey of dealing with There's some journey of dealing with this. But that's I think it's also the this. But that's I think it's also the this. But that's I think it's also the the lot of the man in the arena. the lot of the man in the arena. the lot of the man in the arena. >> Like John, we can end with John Boyd >> Like John, we can end with John Boyd >> Like John, we can end with John Boyd like to do or to be. Are you trying to like to do or to be. Are you trying to like to do or to be. Are you trying to be someone? Are you trying to do be someone? Are you trying to do be someone? Are you trying to do something? You know, we're trying to do something? You know, we're trying to do something? You know, we're trying to do something. something. something. >> That was one of my favorite lines from >> That was one of my favorite lines from >> That was one of my favorite lines from that book. Expand on that one bit more. that book. Expand on that one bit more. that book. Expand on that one bit more. >> So, John Boyd's advice to to other >> So, John Boyd's advice to to other >> So, John Boyd's advice to to other officers, uh, other uniform service officers, uh, other uniform service officers, uh, other uniform service members always like, look, you can members always like, look, you can members always like, look, you can either be somebody or you can do either be somebody or you can do either be somebody or you can do something, but you can't really have something, but you can't really have something, but you can't really have both. And if you're going to be both. And if you're going to be both. And if you're going to be somebody, you got to play this game and somebody, you got to play this game and somebody, you got to play this game and it's all kind of theater, but you're it's all kind of theater, but you're it's all kind of theater, but you're going to get promoted and you're going going to get promoted and you're going going to get promoted and you're going to get the accolytes and you're going to to get the accolytes and you're going to to get the accolytes and you're going to get the rewards of doing that and you're get the rewards of doing that and you're get the rewards of doing that and you're going to feel good about yourself. where going to feel good about yourself. where going to feel good about yourself. where you actually do something and it's going you actually do something and it's going you actually do something and it's going to feel really shitty and no one's going to feel really shitty and no one's going to feel really shitty and no one's going to appreciate it, but you're going to to appreciate it, but you're going to to appreciate it, but you're going to have the intrinsic reward of knowing have the intrinsic reward of knowing have the intrinsic reward of knowing that you did something. that you did something. that you did something. >> You mentioned your dad earlier in the >> You mentioned your dad earlier in the >> You mentioned your dad earlier in the conversation. There's this visual story conversation. There's this visual story conversation. There's this visual story where I think he's held up at gunpoint where I think he's held up at gunpoint where I think he's held up at gunpoint or something early in his life. Went or something early in his life. Went or something early in his life. Went through a lot. I'm curious for you to through a lot. I'm curious for you to through a lot. I'm curious for you to reflect on the nature of of fatherhood reflect on the nature of of fatherhood reflect on the nature of of fatherhood and this whole story. It seems like such and this whole story. It seems like such and this whole story. It seems like such a key your relationship with your dad a key your relationship with your dad a key your relationship with your dad seems like such a key part of your seems like such a key part of your seems like such a key part of your story. Yeah. story. Yeah. story. Yeah. >> From the outside and you're a dad >> From the outside and you're a dad >> From the outside and you're a dad yourself. Would you be willing to just yourself. Would you be willing to just yourself. Would you be willing to just like reflect on that a little bit? I like reflect on that a little bit? I like reflect on that a little bit? I mean, it would be hard to overstate the mean, it would be hard to overstate the mean, it would be hard to overstate the impact that dad and his example had on impact that dad and his example had on impact that dad and his example had on me. Um, you had such a selfless man who me. Um, you had such a selfless man who me. Um, you had such a selfless man who just gave everything to his family, just gave everything to his family, just gave everything to his family, could could weather any humiliation in could could weather any humiliation in could could weather any humiliation in service of his children and his wife. service of his children and his wife. service of his children and his wife. And, um, I think when you're a kid, you And, um, I think when you're a kid, you And, um, I think when you're a kid, you don't you're like you you you learn this don't you're like you you you learn this don't you're like you you you learn this stuff subconsciously. And you're like stuff subconsciously. And you're like stuff subconsciously. And you're like any normal kid, you know, this thing dad any normal kid, you know, this thing dad any normal kid, you know, this thing dad did is annoying or you don't you don't did is annoying or you don't you don't did is annoying or you don't you don't fully appreciate it, but it's like the fully appreciate it, but it's like the fully appreciate it, but it's like the culmination of all these events over culmination of all these events over culmination of all these events over time actually profoundly shape who you time actually profoundly shape who you time actually profoundly shape who you are. And I hope I can set an example are. And I hope I can set an example are. And I hope I can set an example that inspires my kids to do the same that inspires my kids to do the same that inspires my kids to do the same sort of thing. And I think a lot of sort of thing. And I think a lot of sort of thing. And I think a lot of fatherhood is is is being a man that fatherhood is is is being a man that fatherhood is is is being a man that inspires your family to be better. inspires your family to be better. inspires your family to be better. >> When I do these, my closing question is >> When I do these, my closing question is >> When I do these, my closing question is the same for everybody. What is the the same for everybody. What is the the same for everybody. What is the kindest thing that anyone's ever done kindest thing that anyone's ever done kindest thing that anyone's ever done for you? The greatest thing which is for you? The greatest thing which is for you? The greatest thing which is covered in um in the story is uh Miss covered in um in the story is uh Miss covered in um in the story is uh Miss Ethel Danhoff was the head of admissions Ethel Danhoff was the head of admissions Ethel Danhoff was the head of admissions for this private school in Orlando. Uh for this private school in Orlando. Uh for this private school in Orlando. Uh and you know my my dad took me for a and you know my my dad took me for a and you know my my dad took me for a tour of the school having learned that tour of the school having learned that tour of the school having learned that it's the best school and like that was it's the best school and like that was it's the best school and like that was that was the other fixation my dad had that was the other fixation my dad had that was the other fixation my dad had that education was how you were going to that education was how you were going to that education was how you were going to achieve some prosperity and he's like achieve some prosperity and he's like achieve some prosperity and he's like I'm going to give my son every I'm going to give my son every I'm going to give my son every opportunity I possibly can. Turns out opportunity I possibly can. Turns out opportunity I possibly can. Turns out we'd missed the admission window by a we'd missed the admission window by a we'd missed the admission window by a mile and everything was kind of done. mile and everything was kind of done. mile and everything was kind of done. And you know I I was actually very And you know I I was actually very And you know I I was actually very reluctant to go even on this trip and reluctant to go even on this trip and reluctant to go even on this trip and see the school. I was very happy at the see the school. I was very happy at the see the school. I was very happy at the school I was at and but I was when I saw school I was at and but I was when I saw school I was at and but I was when I saw the science facilities there I was like the science facilities there I was like the science facilities there I was like I need to go here. I need to learn this I need to go here. I need to learn this I need to go here. I need to learn this stuff. This is inspiring. stuff. This is inspiring. stuff. This is inspiring. And you know so now I was all spun up And you know so now I was all spun up And you know so now I was all spun up and excited and of course I'm learning. and excited and of course I'm learning. and excited and of course I'm learning. Hey you totally screwed this up and Hey you totally screwed this up and Hey you totally screwed this up and you'll have to wait a year. and Miss you'll have to wait a year. and Miss you'll have to wait a year. and Miss Danhoff I no data like you know it's not Danhoff I no data like you know it's not Danhoff I no data like you know it's not like I had some standardized test scores like I had some standardized test scores like I had some standardized test scores or something she's like give this kid or something she's like give this kid or something she's like give this kid the admission test just do it and maybe the admission test just do it and maybe the admission test just do it and maybe she had a modicum of data after that she had a modicum of data after that she had a modicum of data after that test but we we were a family that needed test but we we were a family that needed test but we we were a family that needed financial aid so it's like here it is financial aid so it's like here it is financial aid so it's like here it is like let's admit a kid that we're going like let's admit a kid that we're going like let's admit a kid that we're going to have to subsidize to come here and to have to subsidize to come here and to have to subsidize to come here and that opened the entire future and I that opened the entire future and I that opened the entire future and I think you know if you look later in life think you know if you look later in life think you know if you look later in life okay maybe maybe people have cynical okay maybe maybe people have cynical okay maybe maybe people have cynical reasons to help you you're further along reasons to help you you're further along reasons to help you you're further along they think there might be something like they think there might be something like they think there might be something like there's nothing in it for her it's Just there's nothing in it for her it's Just there's nothing in it for her it's Just a profound act of kindness that a profound act of kindness that a profound act of kindness that fundamentally changed my life. fundamentally changed my life. fundamentally changed my life. >> Great place to close, John. Thanks for >> Great place to close, John. Thanks for >> Great place to close, John. Thanks for your time. your time. your time. >> Thank you. >> Most software companies try to maximize >> Most software companies try to maximize your time on their app to juice your time on their app to juice your time on their app to juice engagement. Ramp does the exact engagement. Ramp does the exact engagement. Ramp does the exact opposite. RAMP understands that no one opposite. RAMP understands that no one opposite. RAMP understands that no one wants to spend hours chasing receipts, wants to spend hours chasing receipts, wants to spend hours chasing receipts, reviewing expense reports, and checking reviewing expense reports, and checking reviewing expense reports, and checking for policy violations. So, they built for policy violations. So, they built for policy violations. 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