Why Children of Divorce Grow into Broken Adults - Erica Komisar

Why do you think your work is seen as Why do you think your work is seen as controversial? controversial? controversial? >> Well, a number of reasons. I think some >> Well, a number of reasons. I think some >> Well, a number of reasons. I think some of the things I talk about, even though of the things I talk about, even though of the things I talk about, even though they're truths, they're inconvenient they're truths, they're inconvenient they're truths, they're inconvenient truths. Um, you know, my first book was truths. Um, you know, my first book was truths. Um, you know, my first book was about the importance of attachment about the importance of attachment about the importance of attachment security, the first three years, and a security, the first three years, and a security, the first three years, and a mother's presence. And so I think mother's presence. And so I think mother's presence. And so I think originally when that book came out um it originally when that book came out um it originally when that book came out um it was perceived as a message which it was perceived as a message which it was perceived as a message which it really wasn't which was an anti-feminist really wasn't which was an anti-feminist really wasn't which was an anti-feminist message that women shouldn't work. That message that women shouldn't work. That message that women shouldn't work. That wasn't the message of the book at all. wasn't the message of the book at all. wasn't the message of the book at all. Um rather it was a message about the Um rather it was a message about the Um rather it was a message about the importance of uh a mother or primary importance of uh a mother or primary importance of uh a mother or primary attachment figure's physical and attachment figure's physical and attachment figure's physical and emotional presence as much as possible emotional presence as much as possible emotional presence as much as possible in the first three years. And again in the first three years. And again in the first three years. And again that's a sensitive message in a society that's a sensitive message in a society that's a sensitive message in a society that says work work. everybody should that says work work. everybody should that says work work. everybody should work work and no one should raise their work work and no one should raise their work work and no one should raise their own children. And so I think that's how own children. And so I think that's how own children. And so I think that's how I originally became controversial. I I originally became controversial. I I originally became controversial. I think I'm controversial in many ways. I think I'm controversial in many ways. I think I'm controversial in many ways. I think my most recent book is think my most recent book is think my most recent book is controversial in other ways. controversial in other ways. controversial in other ways. um my book on divorce which um my book on divorce which um my book on divorce which >> much less contentious topic. >> much less contentious topic. >> much less contentious topic. >> It is but it isn't because the book >> It is but it isn't because the book >> It is but it isn't because the book actually makes the argument of um this actually makes the argument of um this actually makes the argument of um this idea of 50/50 needs to be looked at very idea of 50/50 needs to be looked at very idea of 50/50 needs to be looked at very carefully that we are treating children carefully that we are treating children carefully that we are treating children like possessions in divorces. So that's like possessions in divorces. So that's like possessions in divorces. So that's that's a sort of controversial idea. that's a sort of controversial idea. that's a sort of controversial idea. >> Um yeah >> Um yeah >> Um yeah >> I think many people assume that kids are >> I think many people assume that kids are >> I think many people assume that kids are quite resilient. quite resilient. quite resilient. >> Mhm. from your clinical work, what do >> Mhm. from your clinical work, what do >> Mhm. from your clinical work, what do most adults misunderstand about what most adults misunderstand about what most adults misunderstand about what divorce does to kids? divorce does to kids? divorce does to kids? >> So, divorce is, we know, is universally >> So, divorce is, we know, is universally >> So, divorce is, we know, is universally not great for children. Um, it tests not great for children. Um, it tests not great for children. Um, it tests their emotional security. It tests their their emotional security. It tests their their emotional security. It tests their sense of permanence and trust in sense of permanence and trust in sense of permanence and trust in relationships. relationships. relationships. So, you know, one would never say it's So, you know, one would never say it's So, you know, one would never say it's good for children, and I certainly would good for children, and I certainly would good for children, and I certainly would never say it's good for children. And never say it's good for children. And never say it's good for children. And there was a woman named Judith there was a woman named Judith there was a woman named Judith Wallerstein who wrote a book many many Wallerstein who wrote a book many many Wallerstein who wrote a book many many years ago, decades ago about how all years ago, decades ago about how all years ago, decades ago about how all divorce is terrible for children and no divorce is terrible for children and no divorce is terrible for children and no one should divorce. Meaning the one should divorce. Meaning the one should divorce. Meaning the implication is you should stay with your implication is you should stay with your implication is you should stay with your spouse even though you don't get along spouse even though you don't get along spouse even though you don't get along with them for the benefit of the with them for the benefit of the with them for the benefit of the children. But research that's come out children. But research that's come out children. But research that's come out come out more recently says that well no come out more recently says that well no come out more recently says that well no divorce is not good for children. But divorce is not good for children. But divorce is not good for children. But there are ways to mitigate how bad it there are ways to mitigate how bad it there are ways to mitigate how bad it is. And it's that in fact chronic is. And it's that in fact chronic is. And it's that in fact chronic conflict intractable conflict for conflict intractable conflict for conflict intractable conflict for children children children >> is much worse. So to live with parents >> is much worse. So to live with parents >> is much worse. So to live with parents who hate each other. So the ideal being who hate each other. So the ideal being who hate each other. So the ideal being uh two parents who love one another, uh two parents who love one another, uh two parents who love one another, respect one another, are affectionate respect one another, are affectionate respect one another, are affectionate with one another, that's what's ideal with one another, that's what's ideal with one another, that's what's ideal for children. But if you can't have that for children. But if you can't have that for children. But if you can't have that and you have two parents who hate each and you have two parents who hate each and you have two parents who hate each other or who are in permanent conflict, other or who are in permanent conflict, other or who are in permanent conflict, that's actually shown to be worse for that's actually shown to be worse for that's actually shown to be worse for children's psyches than a good divor children's psyches than a good divor children's psyches than a good divor divorce. So what I say is a good divorce divorce. So what I say is a good divorce divorce. So what I say is a good divorce is better than a terrible marriage. is better than a terrible marriage. is better than a terrible marriage. >> H okay. Does that mean that divorce is >> H okay. Does that mean that divorce is >> H okay. Does that mean that divorce is costless if the marriage is sufficiently costless if the marriage is sufficiently costless if the marriage is sufficiently bad? bad? bad? >> No, it's not costless. Um it's still >> No, it's not costless. Um it's still >> No, it's not costless. Um it's still going to test children's sense of going to test children's sense of going to test children's sense of security. It's going to test their sense security. It's going to test their sense security. It's going to test their sense of permanence about relationships. These of permanence about relationships. These of permanence about relationships. These are things that will test it will test are things that will test it will test are things that will test it will test their resilience. Um, one of the things their resilience. Um, one of the things their resilience. Um, one of the things I say in the book, which is I say in the book, which is I say in the book, which is controversial, is that you shouldn't controversial, is that you shouldn't controversial, is that you shouldn't divorce till your children are at least divorce till your children are at least divorce till your children are at least 3 years of age. 3 years of age. 3 years of age. >> Uh, if you can help it, unless there's >> Uh, if you can help it, unless there's >> Uh, if you can help it, unless there's some kind of abusive situation going on. some kind of abusive situation going on. some kind of abusive situation going on. If there's physical abuse or sexual If there's physical abuse or sexual If there's physical abuse or sexual abuse, of course, you should leave your abuse, of course, you should leave your abuse, of course, you should leave your spouse. Uh, that that goes without spouse. Uh, that that goes without spouse. Uh, that that goes without saying. But if you're just not getting saying. But if you're just not getting saying. But if you're just not getting along, then if you can hold it and put along, then if you can hold it and put along, then if you can hold it and put your children first for the first 3 your children first for the first 3 your children first for the first 3 years, because we know that the first 3 years, because we know that the first 3 years, because we know that the first 3 years are the period of, you know, the years are the period of, you know, the years are the period of, you know, the greatest brain growth. So from 0 to 3, greatest brain growth. So from 0 to 3, greatest brain growth. So from 0 to 3, 85% of the right brain has grown by 3 85% of the right brain has grown by 3 85% of the right brain has grown by 3 years of age. Um, and so you want to years of age. Um, and so you want to years of age. Um, and so you want to give your child as much stability and give your child as much stability and give your child as much stability and security and not having much conflict or security and not having much conflict or security and not having much conflict or stress in those years. So if parents can stress in those years. So if parents can stress in those years. So if parents can hold it for a few years, I mean you were hold it for a few years, I mean you were hold it for a few years, I mean you were together, you loved each other at one together, you loved each other at one together, you loved each other at one point, you made this baby together, hold point, you made this baby together, hold point, you made this baby together, hold it for 3 years, let your child develop a it for 3 years, let your child develop a it for 3 years, let your child develop a sense of safety and security. Um, and sense of safety and security. Um, and sense of safety and security. Um, and then if you have to divorce, do it after then if you have to divorce, do it after then if you have to divorce, do it after three. Um, that's what I encourage three. Um, that's what I encourage three. Um, that's what I encourage people to do. people to do. people to do. >> Why does constant parental conflict >> Why does constant parental conflict >> Why does constant parental conflict damage children so deeply? What's it damage children so deeply? What's it damage children so deeply? What's it doing to a child's system and brain doing to a child's system and brain doing to a child's system and brain development? development? development? >> Stress. So, we know that stress isn't >> Stress. So, we know that stress isn't >> Stress. So, we know that stress isn't good for children's brains. Well, it's good for children's brains. Well, it's good for children's brains. Well, it's not good for adults brains either, but not good for adults brains either, but not good for adults brains either, but it's really not good for children's it's really not good for children's it's really not good for children's brains. So, you know, you could think of brains. So, you know, you could think of brains. So, you know, you could think of what's happening to the brain is it's, what's happening to the brain is it's, what's happening to the brain is it's, you know, the brain is being architected you know, the brain is being architected you know, the brain is being architected in those first three years and stress in those first three years and stress in those first three years and stress changes the architecture of the brain. changes the architecture of the brain. changes the architecture of the brain. So, there is the stress regulating So, there is the stress regulating So, there is the stress regulating system. So, the amygdala is this tiny system. So, the amygdala is this tiny system. So, the amygdala is this tiny little almond shaped part of the brain little almond shaped part of the brain little almond shaped part of the brain that is probably one of the oldest most that is probably one of the oldest most that is probably one of the oldest most primitive parts of the brain. And it is primitive parts of the brain. And it is primitive parts of the brain. And it is responsible for putting us into survival responsible for putting us into survival responsible for putting us into survival mode. Uh fight or flight you know it mode. Uh fight or flight you know it mode. Uh fight or flight you know it protects us. So we say that a little bit protects us. So we say that a little bit protects us. So we say that a little bit of stress which produces a little bit of of stress which produces a little bit of of stress which produces a little bit of cortisol can protect us right. But a lot cortisol can protect us right. But a lot cortisol can protect us right. But a lot of stress which is chronic which of stress which is chronic which of stress which is chronic which children cannot their brains cannot children cannot their brains cannot children cannot their brains cannot handle actually changes the development handle actually changes the development handle actually changes the development of that brain. So that child later on of that brain. So that child later on of that brain. So that child later on can't deal with adversity and stress as can't deal with adversity and stress as can't deal with adversity and stress as well. Um there's actually a researcher well. Um there's actually a researcher well. Um there's actually a researcher at Columbia University who talked about at Columbia University who talked about at Columbia University who talked about how um think about uh that part of the how um think about uh that part of the how um think about uh that part of the brain that regulates stress. It's meant brain that regulates stress. It's meant brain that regulates stress. It's meant to be offline for the first year. Which to be offline for the first year. Which to be offline for the first year. Which is why mothers wearing babies on their is why mothers wearing babies on their is why mothers wearing babies on their bodies and uh carrying babies around and bodies and uh carrying babies around and bodies and uh carrying babies around and then for the next two years after that then for the next two years after that then for the next two years after that first year having them close by keeps first year having them close by keeps first year having them close by keeps their buffer stress, keeps their stress their buffer stress, keeps their stress their buffer stress, keeps their stress levels quite low, introducing stress levels quite low, introducing stress levels quite low, introducing stress incrementally. And then after that incrementally. And then after that incrementally. And then after that three-year period, children can begin to three-year period, children can begin to three-year period, children can begin to integrate more and more stress. But if integrate more and more stress. But if integrate more and more stress. But if you overly expose them in the beginning, you overly expose them in the beginning, you overly expose them in the beginning, uh you get an overactive amydala that uh you get an overactive amydala that uh you get an overactive amydala that sets that baby into survival mode. And sets that baby into survival mode. And sets that baby into survival mode. And then that part of the brain sort of then that part of the brain sort of then that part of the brain sort of fizzles out. That's the best way I can fizzles out. That's the best way I can fizzles out. That's the best way I can put it. It sort of shrinks, shrivels up put it. It sort of shrinks, shrivels up put it. It sort of shrinks, shrivels up and ceases to be functional in the and ceases to be functional in the and ceases to be functional in the future future future >> to handle stress and adversity. So just >> to handle stress and adversity. So just >> to handle stress and adversity. So just basically not good for children. basically not good for children. basically not good for children. >> What sort of person does that make in >> What sort of person does that make in >> What sort of person does that make in adulthood? a person who can't deal with adulthood? a person who can't deal with adulthood? a person who can't deal with stress, a person who's anxious, who's stress, a person who's anxious, who's stress, a person who's anxious, who's depressed, who can't regulate their depressed, who can't regulate their depressed, who can't regulate their emotions. And that's what we have today. emotions. And that's what we have today. emotions. And that's what we have today. We have so many adults and young adults We have so many adults and young adults We have so many adults and young adults who can't regulate their emotions. So, who can't regulate their emotions. So, who can't regulate their emotions. So, you could say that uh anxiety and you could say that uh anxiety and you could say that uh anxiety and depression and attentional issues or depression and attentional issues or depression and attentional issues or what, you know, everyone's calling ADHD, what, you know, everyone's calling ADHD, what, you know, everyone's calling ADHD, which isn't actually a condition. It's which isn't actually a condition. It's which isn't actually a condition. It's just a symptom of overexposure to just a symptom of overexposure to just a symptom of overexposure to stress. It's it's being in the flight stress. It's it's being in the flight stress. It's it's being in the flight mode. ADHD is a symptom of overexposure mode. ADHD is a symptom of overexposure mode. ADHD is a symptom of overexposure to stress. to stress. to stress. >> It is it's it's a hypervigilant >> It is it's it's a hypervigilant >> It is it's it's a hypervigilant amygdala. It's it's when you're exposed amygdala. It's it's when you're exposed amygdala. It's it's when you're exposed to too much stress more than you can to too much stress more than you can to too much stress more than you can handle and you go into So So you know handle and you go into So So you know handle and you go into So So you know what fight orflight mode is? It's it's what fight orflight mode is? It's it's what fight orflight mode is? It's it's it's our survival mode. So when we feel it's our survival mode. So when we feel it's our survival mode. So when we feel threatened or in danger, either our threatened or in danger, either our threatened or in danger, either our brains will go into let me fight the brains will go into let me fight the brains will go into let me fight the predator that's chasing me or let me predator that's chasing me or let me predator that's chasing me or let me run. And so distractability is the run. And so distractability is the run. And so distractability is the running part. It is the fleeing from running part. It is the fleeing from running part. It is the fleeing from something that feels threatening. And if something that feels threatening. And if something that feels threatening. And if you're in a chronic state of stress, you're in a chronic state of stress, you're in a chronic state of stress, then you're always in that state of then you're always in that state of then you're always in that state of flight or you're always in that state of flight or you're always in that state of flight or you're always in that state of fight. Um and so that that's basically fight. Um and so that that's basically fight. Um and so that that's basically what what it is. But those are those are what what it is. But those are those are what what it is. But those are those are conditions of emotional regulation. What conditions of emotional regulation. What conditions of emotional regulation. What it means is that um children were overly it means is that um children were overly it means is that um children were overly exposed to stress in the beginning and exposed to stress in the beginning and exposed to stress in the beginning and then the consequences of that are that then the consequences of that are that then the consequences of that are that they can't manage stress in the future. they can't manage stress in the future. they can't manage stress in the future. So, is it your opinion that much of the So, is it your opinion that much of the So, is it your opinion that much of the modern youth mental health problems can modern youth mental health problems can modern youth mental health problems can be laid at the feet of dysfunctional be laid at the feet of dysfunctional be laid at the feet of dysfunctional upbringings? upbringings? upbringings? >> Yep, that's correct. Um, not all I mean >> Yep, that's correct. Um, not all I mean >> Yep, that's correct. Um, not all I mean there's very little mental illness that there's very little mental illness that there's very little mental illness that is genetically connected. Um, is genetically connected. Um, is genetically connected. Um, schizophrenia, bipolar disorder, there's schizophrenia, bipolar disorder, there's schizophrenia, bipolar disorder, there's genetic precursors, but there's no genetic precursors, but there's no genetic precursors, but there's no genetic precursor for depression, genetic precursor for depression, genetic precursor for depression, anxiety, and ADHD. There's no genetic anxiety, and ADHD. There's no genetic anxiety, and ADHD. There's no genetic precursor for those. precursor for those. precursor for those. >> No, but there is a genetic precursor for >> No, but there is a genetic precursor for >> No, but there is a genetic precursor for a sensitivity gene. Um, and so what we a sensitivity gene. Um, and so what we a sensitivity gene. Um, and so what we found is a short alil on the serotonin found is a short alil on the serotonin found is a short alil on the serotonin receptor. So serotonin is necessary to receptor. So serotonin is necessary to receptor. So serotonin is necessary to pick up good feelings, but it's also a pick up good feelings, but it's also a pick up good feelings, but it's also a regulation gene. Helps to regulate regulation gene. Helps to regulate regulation gene. Helps to regulate things like excitement. And what we know things like excitement. And what we know things like excitement. And what we know is that there are some babies who are is that there are some babies who are is that there are some babies who are born more neurologically sensitive. That born more neurologically sensitive. That born more neurologically sensitive. That means they're more sensitive to stress means they're more sensitive to stress means they're more sensitive to stress and their brains are going to be and their brains are going to be and their brains are going to be triggered into that fightor-flight state triggered into that fightor-flight state triggered into that fightor-flight state more easily than other babies. Um so if more easily than other babies. Um so if more easily than other babies. Um so if you ask anyone who has more than one you ask anyone who has more than one you ask anyone who has more than one child the you know you say do you have child the you know you say do you have child the you know you say do you have one child or two children uh maybe who one child or two children uh maybe who one child or two children uh maybe who cry more easily who are harder to soothe cry more easily who are harder to soothe cry more easily who are harder to soothe who you couldn't put down who sort of who you couldn't put down who sort of who you couldn't put down who sort of clung to your body more you know who who clung to your body more you know who who clung to your body more you know who who didn't sleep as well you know who had didn't sleep as well you know who had didn't sleep as well you know who had eczema and rashes on their bodies who eczema and rashes on their bodies who eczema and rashes on their bodies who who were more sensitive to the clothing who were more sensitive to the clothing who were more sensitive to the clothing that you put on them or the smells in that you put on them or the smells in that you put on them or the smells in the air or the sounds were too loud. the air or the sounds were too loud. the air or the sounds were too loud. Um, a lot of those babies are what we Um, a lot of those babies are what we Um, a lot of those babies are what we call neurologically sensitive or more call neurologically sensitive or more call neurologically sensitive or more sensitive to stress. And what the sensitive to stress. And what the sensitive to stress. And what the research shows is that if those babies research shows is that if those babies research shows is that if those babies are given uh sensitive empathic are given uh sensitive empathic are given uh sensitive empathic nurturing, if they're provided with a nurturing, if they're provided with a nurturing, if they're provided with a consistent physically and emotionally consistent physically and emotionally consistent physically and emotionally present primary attachment figure in the present primary attachment figure in the present primary attachment figure in the first year to 3 years, those babies, it first year to 3 years, those babies, it first year to 3 years, those babies, it neutralizes that sensitivity gene. So neutralizes that sensitivity gene. So neutralizes that sensitivity gene. So those babies can be as healthy as a baby those babies can be as healthy as a baby those babies can be as healthy as a baby who's born without that sensitivity who's born without that sensitivity who's born without that sensitivity gene. But if that baby is overly exposed gene. But if that baby is overly exposed gene. But if that baby is overly exposed to stress, if you separate them from to stress, if you separate them from to stress, if you separate them from their primary attachment figure, if you their primary attachment figure, if you their primary attachment figure, if you put them into daycare, um if you treat put them into daycare, um if you treat put them into daycare, um if you treat attachment security with very little attachment security with very little attachment security with very little respect, the respect that it deserves, respect, the respect that it deserves, respect, the respect that it deserves, then those babies, it exacerbates that then those babies, it exacerbates that then those babies, it exacerbates that sensitivity gene. sensitivity gene. sensitivity gene. >> Is this what people mean when they talk >> Is this what people mean when they talk >> Is this what people mean when they talk about HSPs, highly sensitive people, or about HSPs, highly sensitive people, or about HSPs, highly sensitive people, or is that some term that's just being is that some term that's just being is that some term that's just being concocted out of nowhere? concocted, but concocted out of nowhere? concocted, but concocted out of nowhere? concocted, but it's the it's so I I suppose they're it's the it's so I I suppose they're it's the it's so I I suppose they're connecting it to the the genetic. I connecting it to the the genetic. I connecting it to the the genetic. I don't know whether that term was don't know whether that term was don't know whether that term was invented when they found the gene, but invented when they found the gene, but invented when they found the gene, but the gene has been found for that. the gene has been found for that. the gene has been found for that. >> And so we know that those babies >> And so we know that those babies >> And so we know that those babies who are not provided with that sensitive who are not provided with that sensitive who are not provided with that sensitive empathic nurturing and that buffering empathic nurturing and that buffering empathic nurturing and that buffering from stress and that presence of their from stress and that presence of their from stress and that presence of their primary attachment figure, you know, primary attachment figure, you know, primary attachment figure, you know, babies are born neurologically fragile. babies are born neurologically fragile. babies are born neurologically fragile. They're not born resilient. They're not They're not born resilient. They're not They're not born resilient. They're not born tough. They're not born capable of born tough. They're not born capable of born tough. They're not born capable of handling stress. They're born incredibly handling stress. They're born incredibly handling stress. They're born incredibly neurologically fragile. And so I always neurologically fragile. And so I always neurologically fragile. And so I always like to say that babies uh have a fourth like to say that babies uh have a fourth like to say that babies uh have a fourth trimester, which isn't real cuz a trimester, which isn't real cuz a trimester, which isn't real cuz a trimester is three, right? But it's that trimester is three, right? But it's that trimester is three, right? But it's that 9 months after a baby is born, they're 9 months after a baby is born, they're 9 months after a baby is born, they're like marsupials. You know, I was just in like marsupials. You know, I was just in like marsupials. You know, I was just in Australia and I gave a speech and I said Australia and I gave a speech and I said Australia and I gave a speech and I said babies are like marsupials. If we had babies are like marsupials. If we had babies are like marsupials. If we had pouches, that's how they should be on pouches, that's how they should be on pouches, that's how they should be on our bodies for the next year after our bodies for the next year after our bodies for the next year after they're born. M they're born. M they're born. M what is it that's causing the issue then what is it that's causing the issue then what is it that's causing the issue then if physical and emotional closeness are if physical and emotional closeness are if physical and emotional closeness are what's important what's the issue with what's important what's the issue with what's important what's the issue with divorce if it's done amicably. divorce if it's done amicably. divorce if it's done amicably. So the problem is that divorce demands So the problem is that divorce demands So the problem is that divorce demands that well at least today's divorce that well at least today's divorce that well at least today's divorce demands that um parents are treated with demands that um parents are treated with demands that um parents are treated with a certain amount of I don't know gender a certain amount of I don't know gender a certain amount of I don't know gender equality or 50/50 you know this whole equality or 50/50 you know this whole equality or 50/50 you know this whole idea of fairness you know and and the idea of fairness you know and and the idea of fairness you know and and the truth is that what's happened is quite a truth is that what's happened is quite a truth is that what's happened is quite a good thing which is that fathers are now good thing which is that fathers are now good thing which is that fathers are now recognized as being very important to recognized as being very important to recognized as being very important to babies um and they are but they're babies um and they are but they're babies um and they are but they're important to babies in a different way important to babies in a different way important to babies in a different way than mothers. If the mother is the than mothers. If the mother is the than mothers. If the mother is the primary attachment figure, if the father primary attachment figure, if the father primary attachment figure, if the father is the primary attachment figure, then is the primary attachment figure, then is the primary attachment figure, then he's the primary attachment figure. But he's the primary attachment figure. But he's the primary attachment figure. But for the most part, mothers who give for the most part, mothers who give for the most part, mothers who give birth to babies, who breastfeed babies, birth to babies, who breastfeed babies, birth to babies, who breastfeed babies, who nurture babies, they still are the who nurture babies, they still are the who nurture babies, they still are the primary attachment figures. And so if primary attachment figures. And so if primary attachment figures. And so if you take a baby who's breastfeeding and you take a baby who's breastfeeding and you take a baby who's breastfeeding and is is in a state of attachment security, is is in a state of attachment security, is is in a state of attachment security, building that attachment security with building that attachment security with building that attachment security with the mother uh and is securely attached the mother uh and is securely attached the mother uh and is securely attached to that mother and now the judge comes to that mother and now the judge comes to that mother and now the judge comes in who has no psychological awareness or in who has no psychological awareness or in who has no psychological awareness or sense and says right like King Solomon sense and says right like King Solomon sense and says right like King Solomon split this baby in half split this baby in half split this baby in half >> 5050 >> 5050 >> 5050 uh take the baby away from the uh take the baby away from the uh take the baby away from the breastfeeding mother uh who sleeps breastfeeding mother uh who sleeps breastfeeding mother uh who sleeps co-sleeping with the baby and give the co-sleeping with the baby and give the co-sleeping with the baby and give the baby to the father three days a week and baby to the father three days a week and baby to the father three days a week and now this baby's traumatized. This baby now this baby's traumatized. This baby now this baby's traumatized. This baby has just lost their entire sense the the has just lost their entire sense the the has just lost their entire sense the the person that is the center of their person that is the center of their person that is the center of their universe and the center of their universe and the center of their universe and the center of their security and for what? Because of security and for what? Because of security and for what? Because of fairness. Because the father needs to fairness. Because the father needs to fairness. Because the father needs to have 50/50. So the idea being in the have 50/50. So the idea being in the have 50/50. So the idea being in the first three years that baby needs the first three years that baby needs the first three years that baby needs the mother more than the father. That mother more than the father. That mother more than the father. That doesn't mean the baby doesn't need the doesn't mean the baby doesn't need the doesn't mean the baby doesn't need the father but the the baby needs the mother father but the the baby needs the mother father but the the baby needs the mother if the mother is the primary attachment if the mother is the primary attachment if the mother is the primary attachment figure more than the father. figure more than the father. figure more than the father. The cases that I've worked on where the The cases that I've worked on where the The cases that I've worked on where the children do the best are the cases where children do the best are the cases where children do the best are the cases where are the families where the father has a are the families where the father has a are the families where the father has a tremendous amount of respect for that tremendous amount of respect for that tremendous amount of respect for that attachment security and doesn't think of attachment security and doesn't think of attachment security and doesn't think of his own personal needs or a sense of his own personal needs or a sense of his own personal needs or a sense of fairness or as if the baby is a fairness or as if the baby is a fairness or as if the baby is a possession. You know the story of King possession. You know the story of King possession. You know the story of King Solomon is two mothers come in and say Solomon is two mothers come in and say Solomon is two mothers come in and say each mother says this is my baby. They each mother says this is my baby. They each mother says this is my baby. They bring a baby in and King Solomon says, bring a baby in and King Solomon says, bring a baby in and King Solomon says, "Well, you both can't be the mothers." "Well, you both can't be the mothers." "Well, you both can't be the mothers." And so he says, "Guards, come over here. And so he says, "Guards, come over here. And so he says, "Guards, come over here. Cut the baby in half and you'll each get Cut the baby in half and you'll each get Cut the baby in half and you'll each get half of the baby." And one of the half of the baby." And one of the half of the baby." And one of the mothers steps forward and says, "No, mothers steps forward and says, "No, mothers steps forward and says, "No, don't cut the baby. Leave the baby don't cut the baby. Leave the baby don't cut the baby. Leave the baby alone. Give the baby to her." And King alone. Give the baby to her." And King alone. Give the baby to her." And King Solomon in his wisdom knew what he was Solomon in his wisdom knew what he was Solomon in his wisdom knew what he was doing. He said, "You're the mother. Not doing. He said, "You're the mother. Not doing. He said, "You're the mother. Not the selfish one, but the selfless one." the selfish one, but the selfless one." the selfish one, but the selfless one." So parents have a very hard time when So parents have a very hard time when So parents have a very hard time when they divorce for good reason because they divorce for good reason because they divorce for good reason because they're in such incredible pain. It is they're in such incredible pain. It is they're in such incredible pain. It is such an incredibly painful thing to see such an incredibly painful thing to see such an incredibly painful thing to see parents go through. They're in such pain parents go through. They're in such pain parents go through. They're in such pain they they focus on their own pain and they they focus on their own pain and they they focus on their own pain and their own desires and their own needs their own desires and their own needs their own desires and their own needs and their own sense of fairness rather and their own sense of fairness rather and their own sense of fairness rather than focusing on what's developmentally than focusing on what's developmentally than focusing on what's developmentally correct for babies. correct for babies. correct for babies. >> A lot of courts push for 50/50 custody. >> A lot of courts push for 50/50 custody. >> A lot of courts push for 50/50 custody. I've seen this, I've seen this, I've seen this, >> right? >> right? >> right? >> What does the sign say about that? >> What does the sign say about that? >> What does the sign say about that? >> It says that I think the courts are not >> It says that I think the courts are not >> It says that I think the courts are not psychologically aware. I don't think psychologically aware. I don't think psychologically aware. I don't think they do it maliciously. they do it maliciously. they do it maliciously. >> Um but I think that um they do it >> Um but I think that um they do it >> Um but I think that um they do it because of this whole societal movement because of this whole societal movement because of this whole societal movement towards we're exactly the same. There's towards we're exactly the same. There's towards we're exactly the same. There's no difference between men and women. And no difference between men and women. And no difference between men and women. And you know the idea is that we're equally you know the idea is that we're equally you know the idea is that we're equally intelligent. Yes, we can do the same intelligent. Yes, we can do the same intelligent. Yes, we can do the same jobs. We should be equally admired and jobs. We should be equally admired and jobs. We should be equally admired and respected. But when it comes to respected. But when it comes to respected. But when it comes to nurturing, men and women have different nurturing, men and women have different nurturing, men and women have different nurturing hormones um that affect their nurturing hormones um that affect their nurturing hormones um that affect their behavior. Women produce a lot of a a behavior. Women produce a lot of a a behavior. Women produce a lot of a a nurturing hormone called oxytocin, which nurturing hormone called oxytocin, which nurturing hormone called oxytocin, which is the love hor euphemistically called is the love hor euphemistically called is the love hor euphemistically called the love hormone. And it makes women's the love hormone. And it makes women's the love hormone. And it makes women's behavior when they have a baby and they behavior when they have a baby and they behavior when they have a baby and they breastfeed, it makes them more breastfeed, it makes them more breastfeed, it makes them more sensitive, empathic nurturers. What does sensitive, empathic nurturers. What does sensitive, empathic nurturers. What does that mean? It means that they're very that mean? It means that they're very that mean? It means that they're very attuned to the distress of the baby. attuned to the distress of the baby. attuned to the distress of the baby. When the baby cries, they soothe the When the baby cries, they soothe the When the baby cries, they soothe the baby from moment to moment. And that baby from moment to moment. And that baby from moment to moment. And that emotional regulation is internalized emotional regulation is internalized emotional regulation is internalized after about a three-year period. So from after about a three-year period. So from after about a three-year period. So from moment to moment, if the mother is moment to moment, if the mother is moment to moment, if the mother is around uh most of the day for that baby around uh most of the day for that baby around uh most of the day for that baby and physically close to that baby, and physically close to that baby, and physically close to that baby, making skin-to-skin contact with that making skin-to-skin contact with that making skin-to-skin contact with that baby, that mother is emotionally baby, that mother is emotionally baby, that mother is emotionally regulating the baby. That's not regulating the baby. That's not regulating the baby. That's not internalized for about 3 years. Okay. internalized for about 3 years. Okay. internalized for about 3 years. Okay. Fathers, when they nurture their babies, Fathers, when they nurture their babies, Fathers, when they nurture their babies, they also produce oxytocin. comes from a they also produce oxytocin. comes from a they also produce oxytocin. comes from a different part of their brain and it it different part of their brain and it it different part of their brain and it it has a different effect on their has a different effect on their has a different effect on their behavior. It makes them playful tactile behavior. It makes them playful tactile behavior. It makes them playful tactile stimulators of babies. They tickle stimulators of babies. They tickle stimulators of babies. They tickle babies. They throw them up in the air. babies. They throw them up in the air. babies. They throw them up in the air. They they you know roll around in rough They they you know roll around in rough They they you know roll around in rough house with them which is really house with them which is really house with them which is really important for resilience building and important for resilience building and important for resilience building and separation. But you don't separate separation. But you don't separate separation. But you don't separate before you're attached. You have to before you're attached. You have to before you're attached. You have to attach. It's all about sequencing, attach. It's all about sequencing, attach. It's all about sequencing, right? So attachment security matters right? So attachment security matters right? So attachment security matters before separation. Um, so fathers before separation. Um, so fathers before separation. Um, so fathers throughout a baby's upbringing throughout a baby's upbringing throughout a baby's upbringing will play with the baby and the mother will play with the baby and the mother will play with the baby and the mother will get hysterical and go, "Don't throw will get hysterical and go, "Don't throw will get hysterical and go, "Don't throw the baby up in the air like that." But the baby up in the air like that." But the baby up in the air like that." But it's actually a very important process. it's actually a very important process. it's actually a very important process. But it's also very important that the But it's also very important that the But it's also very important that the baby when in distress goes back to the baby when in distress goes back to the baby when in distress goes back to the mother. mother. mother. >> Right? If the father is just on his own >> Right? If the father is just on his own >> Right? If the father is just on his own with an infant and he's playing and the with an infant and he's playing and the with an infant and he's playing and the baby's in distress, now there's no baby's in distress, now there's no baby's in distress, now there's no mother to go back to. is very mother to go back to. is very mother to go back to. is very traumatizing for a baby to not have the traumatizing for a baby to not have the traumatizing for a baby to not have the balance of things. Um, and so I think balance of things. Um, and so I think balance of things. Um, and so I think the reason that Oh, I suppose I should the reason that Oh, I suppose I should the reason that Oh, I suppose I should tell you about vasopressin. Basop prein tell you about vasopressin. Basop prein tell you about vasopressin. Basop prein is the nurturing hormone of fathers. is the nurturing hormone of fathers. is the nurturing hormone of fathers. It's actually called the protective It's actually called the protective It's actually called the protective aggressive hormone. Very aggressive hormone. Very aggressive hormone. Very self-explanatory. self-explanatory. self-explanatory. But I'll tell you about an interesting But I'll tell you about an interesting But I'll tell you about an interesting study that was out of England um which study that was out of England um which study that was out of England um which is a mother and father lay in bed um and is a mother and father lay in bed um and is a mother and father lay in bed um and the baby cries and the mother wakes up the baby cries and the mother wakes up the baby cries and the mother wakes up vigilantly to the baby's cries but the vigilantly to the baby's cries but the vigilantly to the baby's cries but the father sleeps through the cries. But father sleeps through the cries. But father sleeps through the cries. But when there's a rustling of leaves when there's a rustling of leaves when there's a rustling of leaves outside the window, the father wakes up outside the window, the father wakes up outside the window, the father wakes up and the mother sleeps through it. and the mother sleeps through it. and the mother sleeps through it. Meaning fathers are much more attuned to Meaning fathers are much more attuned to Meaning fathers are much more attuned to predatorial threat. And that's what predatorial threat. And that's what predatorial threat. And that's what protective aggressive hormones do. We're protective aggressive hormones do. We're protective aggressive hormones do. We're just different. We're not the same in just different. We're not the same in just different. We're not the same in terms of our nurturing hormones which terms of our nurturing hormones which terms of our nurturing hormones which impact our behavior. Does that mean a impact our behavior. Does that mean a impact our behavior. Does that mean a father can't be a single father and father can't be a single father and father can't be a single father and nurture his child? Yes, he can, but he nurture his child? Yes, he can, but he nurture his child? Yes, he can, but he has to be taught because it doesn't come has to be taught because it doesn't come has to be taught because it doesn't come naturally to most fathers. naturally to most fathers. naturally to most fathers. >> Yeah, that's so good that before the >> Yeah, that's so good that before the >> Yeah, that's so good that before the written word and in a time when maybe written word and in a time when maybe written word and in a time when maybe dads would have been killed before the dads would have been killed before the dads would have been killed before the baby was even born, who is around to baby was even born, who is around to baby was even born, who is around to teach a boy what it means to be a father teach a boy what it means to be a father teach a boy what it means to be a father in future? There has to be something in future? There has to be something in future? There has to be something that feels a bit more ingrained. I that feels a bit more ingrained. I that feels a bit more ingrained. I always think about this when I see dogs always think about this when I see dogs always think about this when I see dogs flicking their hind legs after they've flicking their hind legs after they've flicking their hind legs after they've just been to the bathroom. At no point just been to the bathroom. At no point just been to the bathroom. At no point was there a little pamphlet that was was there a little pamphlet that was was there a little pamphlet that was handed to them. And an equivalent is if handed to them. And an equivalent is if handed to them. And an equivalent is if you put boys, young boys, kindergarten, you put boys, young boys, kindergarten, you put boys, young boys, kindergarten, 5 to 10 years old or whatever, uh if you 5 to 10 years old or whatever, uh if you 5 to 10 years old or whatever, uh if you put them in a a yard and there's stones, put them in a a yard and there's stones, put them in a a yard and there's stones, pretty soon those stones are going to pretty soon those stones are going to pretty soon those stones are going to end up in the air. But there's just end up in the air. But there's just end up in the air. But there's just something in I remember as a kid if something in I remember as a kid if something in I remember as a kid if there was something to throw, I would there was something to throw, I would there was something to throw, I would throw it. No one had taught me to throw throw it. No one had taught me to throw throw it. No one had taught me to throw it. owner told me to throw it. It's just it. owner told me to throw it. It's just it. owner told me to throw it. It's just what I wanted to do. And whatever this what I wanted to do. And whatever this what I wanted to do. And whatever this is, some version of neurochemical is, some version of neurochemical is, some version of neurochemical predisposition pushing us toward an predisposition pushing us toward an predisposition pushing us toward an instinct which over time evolution has instinct which over time evolution has instinct which over time evolution has found out, well, that's it's pretty found out, well, that's it's pretty found out, well, that's it's pretty adaptive. It's pretty good. This is adaptive. It's pretty good. This is adaptive. It's pretty good. This is going to increase your chances of going to increase your chances of going to increase your chances of fitness or whoever is around you, it's fitness or whoever is around you, it's fitness or whoever is around you, it's going to be pro-social or it's going to going to be pro-social or it's going to going to be pro-social or it's going to get you more status, kin selection, get you more status, kin selection, get you more status, kin selection, whatever it might be. Uh, it doesn't whatever it might be. Uh, it doesn't whatever it might be. Uh, it doesn't surprise me that that's the case, but I surprise me that that's the case, but I surprise me that that's the case, but I guess given that most children need a guess given that most children need a guess given that most children need a primary attachment figure, that runs primary attachment figure, that runs primary attachment figure, that runs almost counter to every custody almost counter to every custody almost counter to every custody discussion, even the ones, forget 50/50. discussion, even the ones, forget 50/50. discussion, even the ones, forget 50/50. Most custody discussions at least Most custody discussions at least Most custody discussions at least include some custody. And that means not include some custody. And that means not include some custody. And that means not custody for the primary caregiver, which custody for the primary caregiver, which custody for the primary caregiver, which is the mother, which baby cries, is the mother, which baby cries, is the mother, which baby cries, who are they going to crawl to? So who are they going to crawl to? So who are they going to crawl to? So again, I'm talking about the cases that again, I'm talking about the cases that again, I'm talking about the cases that I have helped with, the families I've I have helped with, the families I've I have helped with, the families I've helped through divorce where the helped through divorce where the helped through divorce where the children have the best outcomes in terms children have the best outcomes in terms children have the best outcomes in terms of emotional security and attachment and of emotional security and attachment and of emotional security and attachment and resilience are the ones where the resilience are the ones where the resilience are the ones where the fathers made a lot of sacrifices. fathers made a lot of sacrifices. fathers made a lot of sacrifices. Meaning, if you're going to divorce in Meaning, if you're going to divorce in Meaning, if you're going to divorce in the first 3 years while your child is the first 3 years while your child is the first 3 years while your child is still developing attachment security, still developing attachment security, still developing attachment security, then the father should have as much then the father should have as much then the father should have as much access to that baby as he as he wants. access to that baby as he as he wants. access to that baby as he as he wants. But when it comes to overnights and long But when it comes to overnights and long But when it comes to overnights and long periods of time away from the mother, periods of time away from the mother, periods of time away from the mother, that's just not good for babies. So that that's just not good for babies. So that that's just not good for babies. So that may be good for fathers in their minds, may be good for fathers in their minds, may be good for fathers in their minds, but in the end it's not good for fathers but in the end it's not good for fathers but in the end it's not good for fathers because if their babies end up having because if their babies end up having because if their babies end up having mental health issues. I've never known a mental health issues. I've never known a mental health issues. I've never known a parent who's happy if their child is not parent who's happy if their child is not parent who's happy if their child is not doing well. So you know what you think doing well. So you know what you think doing well. So you know what you think is good for you in the moment may not be is good for you in the moment may not be is good for you in the moment may not be good for your for your child. So the good for your for your child. So the good for your for your child. So the cases where the father has said, I'm cases where the father has said, I'm cases where the father has said, I'm going to we we have to divorce because going to we we have to divorce because going to we we have to divorce because we really hate each other and we can't we really hate each other and we can't we really hate each other and we can't live together and the baby's only one. live together and the baby's only one. live together and the baby's only one. Then the fathers who have you know taken Then the fathers who have you know taken Then the fathers who have you know taken a little bit on the chin and said you a little bit on the chin and said you a little bit on the chin and said you know what you you be the primary uh know what you you be the primary uh know what you you be the primary uh parent right now I will come and go I'll parent right now I will come and go I'll parent right now I will come and go I'll have I'll come and spend lots of time have I'll come and spend lots of time have I'll come and spend lots of time with the baby but I won't do overnights with the baby but I won't do overnights with the baby but I won't do overnights until the baby's a little older and mind until the baby's a little older and mind until the baby's a little older and mind you when children get older particularly you when children get older particularly you when children get older particularly in adolescence um and in the school in adolescence um and in the school in adolescence um and in the school years there are times when they need years there are times when they need years there are times when they need their fathers more than they need their their fathers more than they need their their fathers more than they need their mothers um particularly little little mothers um particularly little little mothers um particularly little little boys and and adolescent boys and so boys and and adolescent boys and so boys and and adolescent boys and so mothers also have to accept that there mothers also have to accept that there mothers also have to accept that there are times when fathers are needed more are times when fathers are needed more are times when fathers are needed more than mothers. But but what we do know is than mothers. But but what we do know is than mothers. But but what we do know is that when parents can make sacrifices, that when parents can make sacrifices, that when parents can make sacrifices, when they're not self-oriented, but when when they're not self-oriented, but when when they're not self-oriented, but when they are capable of sacrificing, when they are capable of sacrificing, when they are capable of sacrificing, when they're capable of putting aside their they're capable of putting aside their they're capable of putting aside their own needs for the benefit of their own needs for the benefit of their own needs for the benefit of their children and making a divorce more child children and making a divorce more child children and making a divorce more child centric, then children do better. In centric, then children do better. In centric, then children do better. 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Right now, you can sign up for a $1 per month trial you can sign up for a $1 per month trial you can sign up for a $1 per month trial period by going to the link in the period by going to the link in the period by going to the link in the description below or heading to description below or heading to description below or heading to shopify.com/modernwisdom, shopify.com/modernwisdom, shopify.com/modernwisdom, all lowercase. That's all lowercase. That's all lowercase. That's shopify.com/modernwisdom. shopify.com/modernwisdom. shopify.com/modernwisdom. >> The child ccentric divorce is a meme >> The child ccentric divorce is a meme >> The child ccentric divorce is a meme that could take hold. Isn't it strange? that could take hold. Isn't it strange? that could take hold. Isn't it strange? So much talk about absentee fathers, So much talk about absentee fathers, So much talk about absentee fathers, deadbeat dads, dads that sort of aren't deadbeat dads, dads that sort of aren't deadbeat dads, dads that sort of aren't a part of the picture. And yet, if a part of the picture. And yet, if a part of the picture. And yet, if you're going to take a neurobiologically you're going to take a neurobiologically you're going to take a neurobiologically developmentally developmentally developmentally informed approach, you actually almost informed approach, you actually almost informed approach, you actually almost need to program that in to a degree. Not need to program that in to a degree. Not need to program that in to a degree. Not that the father shouldn't be there, but that the father shouldn't be there, but that the father shouldn't be there, but that the father should be dep that the father should be dep that the father should be dep prioritized. And I think this is what a prioritized. And I think this is what a prioritized. And I think this is what a lot of men, lot of men, lot of men, a lot of the men going their own way and a lot of the men going their own way and a lot of the men going their own way and men's rights movements is have pushed men's rights movements is have pushed men's rights movements is have pushed back against family court saying this is back against family court saying this is back against family court saying this is unfair. I don't get to see my kids. So unfair. I don't get to see my kids. So unfair. I don't get to see my kids. So on and so forth. Now, I don't think the on and so forth. Now, I don't think the on and so forth. Now, I don't think the reason that they weren't allowed to see reason that they weren't allowed to see reason that they weren't allowed to see their kids is because of a their kids is because of a their kids is because of a neurobiologically informed approach to a neurobiologically informed approach to a neurobiologically informed approach to a child's development. I think it was much child's development. I think it was much child's development. I think it was much more of a discarding and a disregarding more of a discarding and a disregarding more of a discarding and a disregarding of the importance of fathers and of them of the importance of fathers and of them of the importance of fathers and of them as someone that should be considered as someone that should be considered as someone that should be considered when these sorts of conversations are when these sorts of conversations are when these sorts of conversations are happening. happening. happening. But it's an uncomfortable realization to But it's an uncomfortable realization to But it's an uncomfortable realization to come full circle twice, however many come full circle twice, however many come full circle twice, however many times around the horseshoe it is, to times around the horseshoe it is, to times around the horseshoe it is, to realize, oh, actually, maybe that's realize, oh, actually, maybe that's realize, oh, actually, maybe that's what's best for the baby. And if my what's best for the baby. And if my what's best for the baby. And if my primary sense of happiness as a father primary sense of happiness as a father primary sense of happiness as a father is going to come from raising a happy is going to come from raising a happy is going to come from raising a happy baby into a happy child into a happy baby into a happy child into a happy baby into a happy child into a happy adult, adult, adult, >> I actually need to the cultural meme >> I actually need to the cultural meme >> I actually need to the cultural meme needs to change so that I see this as an needs to change so that I see this as an needs to change so that I see this as an oddly oddly oddly like not glorious thing to do, but a like not glorious thing to do, but a like not glorious thing to do, but a worthy sacrifice. Yeah. And and it's a worthy sacrifice. Yeah. And and it's a worthy sacrifice. Yeah. And and it's a challenge that no one's going to give me challenge that no one's going to give me challenge that no one's going to give me that much sympathy for because the that much sympathy for because the that much sympathy for because the pattern matching is only half an inch pattern matching is only half an inch pattern matching is only half an inch away from being a deadbeat dad who's away from being a deadbeat dad who's away from being a deadbeat dad who's absent what mom's looking after. So absent what mom's looking after. So absent what mom's looking after. So yeah, but I go around every day. I go yeah, but I go around every day. I go yeah, but I go around every day. I go around for this time during the around for this time during the around for this time during the afternoon when I'm when I can. But I afternoon when I'm when I can. But I afternoon when I'm when I can. But I can't stay over. We're no longer can't stay over. We're no longer can't stay over. We're no longer together. It's difficult for me. I have together. It's difficult for me. I have together. It's difficult for me. I have to go through this thing. It's her to go through this thing. It's her to go through this thing. It's her house. That's you know I these house. That's you know I these house. That's you know I these complicated custody schedules must be a complicated custody schedules must be a complicated custody schedules must be a nightmare. It must be super nightmare. It must be super nightmare. It must be super destabilizing for mom and dad and kid as destabilizing for mom and dad and kid as destabilizing for mom and dad and kid as well. You know the reason I mean there well. You know the reason I mean there well. You know the reason I mean there is such a thing as alienation which is is such a thing as alienation which is is such a thing as alienation which is really problematic in divorces and it really problematic in divorces and it really problematic in divorces and it does happen and it happens when parents does happen and it happens when parents does happen and it happens when parents divorce under very contentious uh divorce under very contentious uh divorce under very contentious uh situations very belligerent contentious situations very belligerent contentious situations very belligerent contentious hostile divorces where um you know I hostile divorces where um you know I hostile divorces where um you know I always say in divorces it's rare that always say in divorces it's rare that always say in divorces it's rare that two people look at one another and go two people look at one another and go two people look at one another and go yeah let's let's you know we'll call it yeah let's let's you know we'll call it yeah let's let's you know we'll call it quits together we're on the same page. quits together we're on the same page. quits together we're on the same page. page. It happens what we call amicable page. It happens what we call amicable page. It happens what we call amicable divorces. Usually divorces are pushed by divorces. Usually divorces are pushed by divorces. Usually divorces are pushed by one person. So that means that there's one person. So that means that there's one person. So that means that there's always somebody being left always somebody being left always somebody being left >> uh or somebody who perceives as being >> uh or somebody who perceives as being >> uh or somebody who perceives as being left and so that means that that person left and so that means that that person left and so that means that that person is in a tremendous amount of pain and is in a tremendous amount of pain and is in a tremendous amount of pain and sometimes that hostility and that pain sometimes that hostility and that pain sometimes that hostility and that pain uh turn into vengeance and vengeance can uh turn into vengeance and vengeance can uh turn into vengeance and vengeance can turn into alienation. So alienation does turn into alienation. So alienation does turn into alienation. So alienation does exist. So exist. So exist. So >> what how does alienation show up >> what how does alienation show up >> what how does alienation show up mechanically? What is it? Well, mechanically? What is it? Well, mechanically? What is it? Well, basically the term alienation legally is basically the term alienation legally is basically the term alienation legally is used to to describe um an obstacle used to to describe um an obstacle used to to describe um an obstacle that's put in the way of either parent that's put in the way of either parent that's put in the way of either parent having a relationship with that child. having a relationship with that child. having a relationship with that child. And so, look, there are mothers andor And so, look, there are mothers andor And so, look, there are mothers andor fathers who create obstacles, either fathers who create obstacles, either fathers who create obstacles, either physical or emotional obstacles to their physical or emotional obstacles to their physical or emotional obstacles to their child loving the other parent. You know, child loving the other parent. You know, child loving the other parent. You know, either they badmouth the parent and and either they badmouth the parent and and either they badmouth the parent and and are critical of the parent and say are critical of the parent and say are critical of the parent and say terrible things about the parent or they terrible things about the parent or they terrible things about the parent or they don't allow phone calls to the parent or don't allow phone calls to the parent or don't allow phone calls to the parent or visitation to the parent or if the visitation to the parent or if the visitation to the parent or if the parent misses visitation or is an hour parent misses visitation or is an hour parent misses visitation or is an hour late the mother shuts the door or you late the mother shuts the door or you late the mother shuts the door or you know so it does happen. Um but I think know so it does happen. Um but I think know so it does happen. Um but I think what what has happened is it's assumed what what has happened is it's assumed what what has happened is it's assumed that that's always happening and it's that that's always happening and it's that that's always happening and it's not. I would say it's more rare cases not. I would say it's more rare cases not. I would say it's more rare cases where there's alienation. Um, I I think where there's alienation. Um, I I think where there's alienation. Um, I I think parents just need to be educated about parents just need to be educated about parents just need to be educated about how if you're going to get divorced, how if you're going to get divorced, how if you're going to get divorced, children aren't the ones who ask for it. children aren't the ones who ask for it. children aren't the ones who ask for it. And it's you have to be very selfless in And it's you have to be very selfless in And it's you have to be very selfless in the process of divorce if you want your the process of divorce if you want your the process of divorce if you want your children to be well. children to be well. children to be well. >> What happens after age three? I have to >> What happens after age three? I have to >> What happens after age three? I have to assume that a 4 or 8 or 12 year old's assume that a 4 or 8 or 12 year old's assume that a 4 or 8 or 12 year old's parents getting divorced is not that parents getting divorced is not that parents getting divorced is not that much better. So what is the issue with much better. So what is the issue with much better. So what is the issue with older children, divorced parents? older children, divorced parents? older children, divorced parents? So actually there is a period of time So actually there is a period of time So actually there is a period of time that's more stable in development. So we that's more stable in development. So we that's more stable in development. So we know that there are unstable periods of know that there are unstable periods of know that there are unstable periods of development. I hate to call it that but development. I hate to call it that but development. I hate to call it that but they kind of are. The brain is in a less they kind of are. The brain is in a less they kind of are. The brain is in a less stable situation. Right? 0 to three the stable situation. Right? 0 to three the stable situation. Right? 0 to three the brain is very unstable. It's um it's brain is very unstable. It's um it's brain is very unstable. It's um it's growing so rapidly and it has certain growing so rapidly and it has certain growing so rapidly and it has certain needs for security. So it's it's rather needs for security. So it's it's rather needs for security. So it's it's rather unstable. It's a very pl what we call unstable. It's a very pl what we call unstable. It's a very pl what we call plasticity a period of great plasticity. plasticity a period of great plasticity. plasticity a period of great plasticity. Um, another period of great plasticity Um, another period of great plasticity Um, another period of great plasticity is adolescence. So adolescence is from 9 is adolescence. So adolescence is from 9 is adolescence. So adolescence is from 9 to 25. Starts earlier, ends later. And to 25. Starts earlier, ends later. And to 25. Starts earlier, ends later. And in young men, it really doesn't end till in young men, it really doesn't end till in young men, it really doesn't end till about 27. about 27. about 27. So what we know is that during those two So what we know is that during those two So what we know is that during those two periods of plasticity, the period of periods of plasticity, the period of periods of plasticity, the period of great growth, which is 0 to three, and great growth, which is 0 to three, and great growth, which is 0 to three, and then adolescence, which is a period of then adolescence, which is a period of then adolescence, which is a period of great pruning. So imagine if you grew a great pruning. So imagine if you grew a great pruning. So imagine if you grew a garden, the first three years are like garden, the first three years are like garden, the first three years are like you grow your garden, and then the you grow your garden, and then the you grow your garden, and then the garden overgrows. And then you know that garden overgrows. And then you know that garden overgrows. And then you know that if you have a vegetable garden, if it if you have a vegetable garden, if it if you have a vegetable garden, if it overgrows, it's not going to produce overgrows, it's not going to produce overgrows, it's not going to produce vegetables. So you have to prune the vegetables. So you have to prune the vegetables. So you have to prune the garden. So the pruning period is also garden. So the pruning period is also garden. So the pruning period is also very critical. And it's a period of very critical. And it's a period of very critical. And it's a period of great plasticity and vulnerability. We great plasticity and vulnerability. We great plasticity and vulnerability. We call it a critical period. Probably the call it a critical period. Probably the call it a critical period. Probably the two worst periods to divorce is 0 to 3 two worst periods to divorce is 0 to 3 two worst periods to divorce is 0 to 3 and 9 to 25. and 9 to 25. and 9 to 25. And what I say, I be a little I'm going And what I say, I be a little I'm going And what I say, I be a little I'm going to be a little generous and say to be a little generous and say to be a little generous and say um the worst period of adolescence to um the worst period of adolescence to um the worst period of adolescence to divorce in is about divorce in is about divorce in is about 11 to 14. It is the worst I say it's the 11 to 14. It is the worst I say it's the 11 to 14. It is the worst I say it's the worst period of anybody's life. It's worst period of anybody's life. It's worst period of anybody's life. It's middle school and it is the most middle school and it is the most middle school and it is the most challenging transitional challenging transitional challenging transitional um torturous period for children. um torturous period for children. um torturous period for children. They're physically developing. They're They're physically developing. They're They're physically developing. They're going through puberty. There's social going through puberty. There's social going through puberty. There's social drama. There's rejection and exclusion drama. There's rejection and exclusion drama. There's rejection and exclusion and teasing and bullying and it's it's and teasing and bullying and it's it's and teasing and bullying and it's it's terrible. And so if I were going to say terrible. And so if I were going to say terrible. And so if I were going to say are there periods that are more stable are there periods that are more stable are there periods that are more stable in terms of development and brain in terms of development and brain in terms of development and brain growth, you would say probably from growth, you would say probably from growth, you would say probably from about six to about 11. If there's an about six to about 11. If there's an about six to about 11. If there's an ideal period to divorce, it might be ideal period to divorce, it might be ideal period to divorce, it might be that that that >> never a good time to divorce. >> never a good time to divorce. >> never a good time to divorce. never a good time to divorce, but if you never a good time to divorce, but if you never a good time to divorce, but if you have to do it, that's probably a good have to do it, that's probably a good have to do it, that's probably a good window. Um, you could also do it after window. Um, you could also do it after window. Um, you could also do it after 14. You know, it's a little more stable 14. You know, it's a little more stable 14. You know, it's a little more stable after 14. So, adolescence is uh broken after 14. So, adolescence is uh broken after 14. So, adolescence is uh broken up into three periods. Early up into three periods. Early up into three periods. Early adolescence, mid-adolescence, and late adolescence, mid-adolescence, and late adolescence, mid-adolescence, and late adolescence. So, you you kind of want to adolescence. So, you you kind of want to adolescence. So, you you kind of want to get to late adolescence if you want to get to late adolescence if you want to get to late adolescence if you want to divorce. And then I'm going to say divorce. And then I'm going to say divorce. And then I'm going to say there's another period that's sensitive. there's another period that's sensitive. there's another period that's sensitive. I mean, it's a little like a landmine, I mean, it's a little like a landmine, I mean, it's a little like a landmine, right? Because what I'm saying is try right? Because what I'm saying is try right? Because what I'm saying is try not to do it zero to three. I not to do it zero to three. I not to do it zero to three. I >> feel like I'm playing divorce >> feel like I'm playing divorce >> feel like I'm playing divorce battleships with you. battleships with you. battleships with you. >> But but you know what? Developmentally >> But but you know what? Developmentally >> But but you know what? Developmentally children are more sensitive at certain. children are more sensitive at certain. children are more sensitive at certain. See, no one ever talks about this. So See, no one ever talks about this. So See, no one ever talks about this. So this is maybe controversial to say that this is maybe controversial to say that this is maybe controversial to say that there are better times to divorce than there are better times to divorce than there are better times to divorce than other times. other times. other times. People think these are all the myths, People think these are all the myths, People think these are all the myths, right? They think um oh it's better to right? They think um oh it's better to right? They think um oh it's better to do it while the baby is little because do it while the baby is little because do it while the baby is little because they'll never know any better. Okay, they'll never know any better. Okay, they'll never know any better. Okay, then you're tearing apart attachment then you're tearing apart attachment then you're tearing apart attachment security. Oh, another myth. Oh, it's security. Oh, another myth. Oh, it's security. Oh, another myth. Oh, it's better to wait till they go to college better to wait till they go to college better to wait till they go to college and just when they go to college, we'll and just when they go to college, we'll and just when they go to college, we'll divorce. When they go to college, we'll divorce. When they go to college, we'll divorce. When they go to college, we'll tell them and we'll separate. tell them and we'll separate. tell them and we'll separate. When kids go to college, they are it's a When kids go to college, they are it's a When kids go to college, they are it's a transition that is so incredibly fragile transition that is so incredibly fragile transition that is so incredibly fragile and they need to feel that they're and they need to feel that they're and they need to feel that they're tethered to something very secure to go tethered to something very secure to go tethered to something very secure to go out into the world and individuate. So, out into the world and individuate. So, out into the world and individuate. So, there's two things. There's separation there's two things. There's separation there's two things. There's separation which is physical separation and then which is physical separation and then which is physical separation and then there's individuation which is there's individuation which is there's individuation which is developing your identity as a separate developing your identity as a separate developing your identity as a separate person and it is such a fragile period. person and it is such a fragile period. person and it is such a fragile period. So I say if you're if you're going to do So I say if you're if you're going to do So I say if you're if you're going to do it when after they go to college then it when after they go to college then it when after they go to college then wait till they finish college and wait till they finish college and wait till they finish college and they're launched. Wait a few years you they're launched. Wait a few years you they're launched. Wait a few years you know. So if you've waited this long know. So if you've waited this long know. So if you've waited this long don't do it when they're 18. Wait till don't do it when they're 18. Wait till don't do it when they're 18. Wait till they're like 23 and they have friends they're like 23 and they have friends they're like 23 and they have friends and they have a job and they're more and they have a job and they're more and they have a job and they're more secure. But this idea that, you know, as secure. But this idea that, you know, as secure. But this idea that, you know, as soon as they go to college, they're like soon as they go to college, they're like soon as they go to college, they're like done. They're cooked and it's, you know, done. They're cooked and it's, you know, done. They're cooked and it's, you know, like they're not cooked at 18. They're like they're not cooked at 18. They're like they're not cooked at 18. They're not cooked till they're 27. not cooked till they're 27. not cooked till they're 27. >> And so, yeah, there are better times >> And so, yeah, there are better times >> And so, yeah, there are better times than I mean, there's no good time to than I mean, there's no good time to than I mean, there's no good time to divorce, but there are better times for divorce, but there are better times for divorce, but there are better times for children than other times. children than other times. children than other times. >> What is the impact on the future adult >> What is the impact on the future adult >> What is the impact on the future adult when divorce happens when divorce happens when divorce happens 11 to 14? We've spoken about the 11 to 14? We've spoken about the 11 to 14? We've spoken about the importance of the primary attachment importance of the primary attachment importance of the primary attachment figure, the fact that this is getting figure, the fact that this is getting figure, the fact that this is getting ripped away, regulation of emotions. ripped away, regulation of emotions. ripped away, regulation of emotions. That has to be a different mechanism. That has to be a different mechanism. That has to be a different mechanism. It's the same stimulus. Parents It's the same stimulus. Parents It's the same stimulus. Parents splitting up, but it's got to be a splitting up, but it's got to be a splitting up, but it's got to be a different mechanism that's happening different mechanism that's happening different mechanism that's happening now. So, what is the impact and what now. So, what is the impact and what now. So, what is the impact and what that person will be like in future? that person will be like in future? that person will be like in future? >> Well, they're already more unstable in >> Well, they're already more unstable in >> Well, they're already more unstable in that period. So, what you're trying to that period. So, what you're trying to that period. So, what you're trying to do is you're trying to help stabilize do is you're trying to help stabilize do is you're trying to help stabilize them in that period and provide them them in that period and provide them them in that period and provide them with a sense of security. So, you know, with a sense of security. So, you know, with a sense of security. So, you know, people hear attachment security and they people hear attachment security and they people hear attachment security and they think it's only 0 to three. In fact, think it's only 0 to three. In fact, think it's only 0 to three. In fact, attachment security is throughout attachment security is throughout attachment security is throughout childhood at different points. And so, childhood at different points. And so, childhood at different points. And so, another point of attachment security is another point of attachment security is another point of attachment security is when your child is separating because when your child is separating because when your child is separating because you want to be as secure as possible, you want to be as secure as possible, you want to be as secure as possible, you want to give them a stable base, a you want to give them a stable base, a you want to give them a stable base, a platform from which to um experiment and platform from which to um experiment and platform from which to um experiment and explore being independent. But it's hard explore being independent. But it's hard explore being independent. But it's hard to do that if what you're coming back to to do that if what you're coming back to to do that if what you're coming back to is are moving tectonic plates. And so is are moving tectonic plates. And so is are moving tectonic plates. And so really there are points at which really there are points at which really there are points at which children need a lot of stability to children need a lot of stability to children need a lot of stability to grow. So if you destabilize them at a grow. So if you destabilize them at a grow. So if you destabilize them at a time when they're already unstable, it's time when they're already unstable, it's time when they're already unstable, it's going to be very hard for them to find going to be very hard for them to find going to be very hard for them to find their footing. It may delay their their footing. It may delay their their footing. It may delay their development. It may uh it may keep them development. It may uh it may keep them development. It may uh it may keep them in a somewhat regressed state. So some in a somewhat regressed state. So some in a somewhat regressed state. So some kids who whose parents divorce at very kids who whose parents divorce at very kids who whose parents divorce at very critical periods of brain development, critical periods of brain development, critical periods of brain development, they kind of stay in a more regressed they kind of stay in a more regressed they kind of stay in a more regressed state. They don't keep developing. They state. They don't keep developing. They state. They don't keep developing. They It's sort of like they get stuck in a It's sort of like they get stuck in a It's sort of like they get stuck in a certain period. certain period. certain period. >> Why? >> Why? >> Why? >> Um because they to to continue to move >> Um because they to to continue to move >> Um because they to to continue to move in development, you need a certain in development, you need a certain in development, you need a certain amount of stability. And so they stay in amount of stability. And so they stay in amount of stability. And so they stay in a state of wherever they were a state of wherever they were a state of wherever they were traumatized, they get stuck there. M traumatized, they get stuck there. M traumatized, they get stuck there. M >> um so to say that divorce is a trauma, >> um so to say that divorce is a trauma, >> um so to say that divorce is a trauma, it it is a trauma and what what my book it it is a trauma and what what my book it it is a trauma and what what my book is trying to do is to help you to reduce is trying to do is to help you to reduce is trying to do is to help you to reduce that trauma to mitigate that trauma and that trauma to mitigate that trauma and that trauma to mitigate that trauma and make it as gentle and as sensitive and make it as gentle and as sensitive and make it as gentle and as sensitive and as the least traumatic situation you can as the least traumatic situation you can as the least traumatic situation you can make it for that child. make it for that child. make it for that child. >> Who is affected more by divorce, boys or >> Who is affected more by divorce, boys or >> Who is affected more by divorce, boys or girls? girls? girls? >> It's a good question. Um, funny enough, >> It's a good question. Um, funny enough, >> It's a good question. Um, funny enough, at different stages of development, it at different stages of development, it at different stages of development, it might be different, but boys are more might be different, but boys are more might be different, but boys are more neurologically sensitive than girls. Um, neurologically sensitive than girls. Um, neurologically sensitive than girls. Um, we know this from all the research that we know this from all the research that we know this from all the research that even from in uterero, boys are more even from in uterero, boys are more even from in uterero, boys are more sensitive to cortisol, to the stress sensitive to cortisol, to the stress sensitive to cortisol, to the stress hormone. hormone. hormone. >> And, um, we see it in little boys who go >> And, um, we see it in little boys who go >> And, um, we see it in little boys who go into fight and flight so easily in into fight and flight so easily in into fight and flight so easily in school with behavioral problems and school with behavioral problems and school with behavioral problems and attentional issues. is there's probably attentional issues. is there's probably attentional issues. is there's probably more little boys with behavioral more little boys with behavioral more little boys with behavioral problems and attentional issues than problems and attentional issues than problems and attentional issues than little girls. little girls. little girls. Um but girls are also susceptible to Um but girls are also susceptible to Um but girls are also susceptible to stress particularly in adolescence. I stress particularly in adolescence. I stress particularly in adolescence. I mean one of the things that we know is mean one of the things that we know is mean one of the things that we know is that girls brains are very hypervigilant that girls brains are very hypervigilant that girls brains are very hypervigilant to criticism of any kind. Um it's why to criticism of any kind. Um it's why to criticism of any kind. Um it's why social media is so bad for girls social media is so bad for girls social media is so bad for girls >> especially during that 11 to 14 range. >> especially during that 11 to 14 range. >> especially during that 11 to 14 range. >> Yeah. self-consciousness >> Yeah. self-consciousness >> Yeah. self-consciousness and um criticism that they they and um criticism that they they and um criticism that they they exaggerate in their minds. Um and so, exaggerate in their minds. Um and so, exaggerate in their minds. Um and so, you know, at different stages of you know, at different stages of you know, at different stages of development, it's different, but what we development, it's different, but what we development, it's different, but what we do know is that little boys are more do know is that little boys are more do know is that little boys are more prone to things like autism to prone to things like autism to prone to things like autism to behavioral issues to attentional issues. behavioral issues to attentional issues. behavioral issues to attentional issues. Um and all of those are you know autism Um and all of those are you know autism Um and all of those are you know autism is um a developmental condition that's is um a developmental condition that's is um a developmental condition that's that is goes back to being in uterero that is goes back to being in uterero that is goes back to being in uterero but there is some research to try to but there is some research to try to but there is some research to try to connect cortisol to autism. Um and the connect cortisol to autism. Um and the connect cortisol to autism. Um and the idea is not that it causes autism but it idea is not that it causes autism but it idea is not that it causes autism but it may be the one of the things that can may be the one of the things that can may be the one of the things that can trigger the gene and turn it on. Um so trigger the gene and turn it on. Um so trigger the gene and turn it on. Um so we know that boys are very very we know that boys are very very we know that boys are very very neurologically sensitive. So I would say neurologically sensitive. So I would say neurologically sensitive. So I would say probably boys even more than girls but probably boys even more than girls but probably boys even more than girls but at certain periods of development at certain periods of development at certain periods of development particularly adolescence girls can be particularly adolescence girls can be particularly adolescence girls can be very uh very susceptible as well. very uh very susceptible as well. very uh very susceptible as well. >> What about separation during pregnancy? >> What about separation during pregnancy? >> What about separation during pregnancy? What's the impact of that? What's the impact of that? What's the impact of that? >> You don't want the mother to be under >> You don't want the mother to be under >> You don't want the mother to be under stress. So what we know from the stress. So what we know from the stress. So what we know from the research is that cortisol is transmitted research is that cortisol is transmitted research is that cortisol is transmitted to the baby. to the baby. to the baby. And again, as I said, there's some And again, as I said, there's some And again, as I said, there's some research that's going on um trying to research that's going on um trying to research that's going on um trying to connect what cortisol does to the baby's connect what cortisol does to the baby's connect what cortisol does to the baby's developing brain. developing brain. developing brain. So, if a mother is stressed out in her So, if a mother is stressed out in her So, if a mother is stressed out in her pregnancy, either because of a divorce pregnancy, either because of a divorce pregnancy, either because of a divorce or because of a work situation or or because of a work situation or or because of a work situation or because a parent's dying or um there's a because a parent's dying or um there's a because a parent's dying or um there's a lot of research now going on about how lot of research now going on about how lot of research now going on about how that affects the baby in uterero. that affects the baby in uterero. that affects the baby in uterero. So that I'll I'll leave it at that to So that I'll I'll leave it at that to So that I'll I'll leave it at that to say it's not good for the mother, but we say it's not good for the mother, but we say it's not good for the mother, but we know it's definitely not good for the know it's definitely not good for the know it's definitely not good for the baby. baby. baby. >> Well, presumably the same thing is true >> Well, presumably the same thing is true >> Well, presumably the same thing is true of women who need to keep on cranking of women who need to keep on cranking of women who need to keep on cranking their careers right up until the moment their careers right up until the moment their careers right up until the moment that they give birth. That's right. that they give birth. That's right. that they give birth. That's right. >> No one around the office really thinks >> No one around the office really thinks >> No one around the office really thinks all that much. Well, I I'd better not all that much. Well, I I'd better not all that much. Well, I I'd better not push to hit the sales target this push to hit the sales target this push to hit the sales target this quarter because Suzanne is pregnant. So quarter because Suzanne is pregnant. So quarter because Suzanne is pregnant. So we we have a business and you're we we have a business and you're we we have a business and you're supposed to be here. And also there's a supposed to be here. And also there's a supposed to be here. And also there's a sense I think that a lot of women have sense I think that a lot of women have sense I think that a lot of women have of a they don't want to be seen as of a they don't want to be seen as of a they don't want to be seen as fragile. They don't need to be seen as a fragile. They don't need to be seen as a fragile. They don't need to be seen as a diva. They don't want to have the diva. They don't want to have the diva. They don't want to have the accusation of oh here we go estrogen's accusation of oh here we go estrogen's accusation of oh here we go estrogen's on the line and no one's no work's going on the line and no one's no work's going on the line and no one's no work's going to get done. She's going to be crying in to get done. She's going to be crying in to get done. She's going to be crying in the bathroom all day. So I think pushing the bathroom all day. So I think pushing the bathroom all day. So I think pushing through the normal discomforts of through the normal discomforts of through the normal discomforts of everyday work, which when you actually everyday work, which when you actually everyday work, which when you actually think about it, when you think about think about it, when you think about think about it, when you think about what even a relatively unstressful job, what even a relatively unstressful job, what even a relatively unstressful job, somebody that's a gardener, right, which somebody that's a gardener, right, which somebody that's a gardener, right, which I I I think of as probably being a I I I think of as probably being a I I I think of as probably being a little bit more sedate than someone little bit more sedate than someone little bit more sedate than someone that's a salesperson. Even that there's that's a salesperson. Even that there's that's a salesperson. Even that there's traffic on the way to work and you're traffic on the way to work and you're traffic on the way to work and you're trying to get in and out, there's some trying to get in and out, there's some trying to get in and out, there's some sort some conflict and the boss has sort some conflict and the boss has sort some conflict and the boss has changed and the new guy that's just come changed and the new guy that's just come changed and the new guy that's just come in, he's a bit of a dick and all of in, he's a bit of a dick and all of in, he's a bit of a dick and all of these little insults that happen. That's these little insults that happen. That's these little insults that happen. That's not to say that there wouldn't have been not to say that there wouldn't have been not to say that there wouldn't have been this ancestrally, but given that we're this ancestrally, but given that we're this ancestrally, but given that we're trying to design an environment that's trying to design an environment that's trying to design an environment that's really great for mom and baby and then really great for mom and baby and then really great for mom and baby and then dad as a part of that. Uh yeah, the the dad as a part of that. Uh yeah, the the dad as a part of that. Uh yeah, the the fact that what's the mandatory Matt fact that what's the mandatory Matt fact that what's the mandatory Matt leave in America? leave in America? leave in America? >> I was going to say um do you want to >> I was going to say um do you want to >> I was going to say um do you want to know what my wish list is or do you want know what my wish list is or do you want know what my wish list is or do you want to know the reality? Because there is no to know the reality? Because there is no to know the reality? Because there is no maternity leave. Um we have something maternity leave. Um we have something maternity leave. Um we have something called the family leave act which um called the family leave act which um called the family leave act which um means that you can't be fired for 3 means that you can't be fired for 3 means that you can't be fired for 3 months but you don't get any pay. months but you don't get any pay. months but you don't get any pay. So there is no federal paid leave in our So there is no federal paid leave in our So there is no federal paid leave in our country. none. State by state, like New country. none. State by state, like New country. none. State by state, like New York State, I believe, now gives 3 York State, I believe, now gives 3 York State, I believe, now gives 3 months of paid leave at minimum wage months of paid leave at minimum wage months of paid leave at minimum wage maybe, but it's not very much. But maybe, but it's not very much. But maybe, but it's not very much. But that's state by state. But there is no that's state by state. But there is no that's state by state. But there is no federal paid leave. And then it's federal paid leave. And then it's federal paid leave. And then it's contingent upon your employer's good contingent upon your employer's good contingent upon your employer's good graces if they decide to give you six graces if they decide to give you six graces if they decide to give you six weeks or three months, but there's weeks or three months, but there's weeks or three months, but there's >> totally discretionary. >> totally discretionary. >> totally discretionary. >> There's totally discretionary. So I I >> There's totally discretionary. So I I >> There's totally discretionary. So I I call call call >> that is [ __ ] barbaric. >> that is [ __ ] barbaric. >> that is [ __ ] barbaric. It is Barb. It is I call it the most It is Barb. It is I call it the most It is Barb. It is I call it the most univilized country univilized country univilized country >> and the country that pays lip service. >> and the country that pays lip service. >> and the country that pays lip service. So this is my frustration. The country So this is my frustration. The country So this is my frustration. The country that pays lip service to mental health that pays lip service to mental health that pays lip service to mental health talks a lot about mental health and talks a lot about mental health and talks a lot about mental health and children and we care and we love children and we care and we love children and we care and we love families and it's all a bunch of families and it's all a bunch of families and it's all a bunch of [ __ ] Because if you really cared [ __ ] Because if you really cared [ __ ] Because if you really cared about mental health and you really cared about mental health and you really cared about mental health and you really cared about children and you really cared about children and you really cared about children and you really cared about families, you would have 12 to 18 about families, you would have 12 to 18 about families, you would have 12 to 18 months of paid leave. I just came back months of paid leave. I just came back months of paid leave. I just came back from Australia where I have probably had from Australia where I have probably had from Australia where I have probably had more influence in Australia and the UK more influence in Australia and the UK more influence in Australia and the UK in terms of policy than in America. And in terms of policy than in America. And in terms of policy than in America. And I'm American. Uh I live here, but um I'm American. Uh I live here, but um I'm American. Uh I live here, but um nobody wants to listen to me here, you nobody wants to listen to me here, you nobody wants to listen to me here, you know. Um the Democrats see my messaging know. Um the Democrats see my messaging know. Um the Democrats see my messaging as anti-feminist and the Republicans see as anti-feminist and the Republicans see as anti-feminist and the Republicans see my message is too expensive. And so I am my message is too expensive. And so I am my message is too expensive. And so I am just stuck in no man's land. I am in no just stuck in no man's land. I am in no just stuck in no man's land. I am in no man's land. I'm with you, Erica. Don't man's land. I'm with you, Erica. Don't man's land. I'm with you, Erica. Don't worry. No, I'm in the trenches with you. worry. No, I'm in the trenches with you. worry. No, I'm in the trenches with you. Don't worry about it. Don't worry about it. Don't worry about it. >> Till the day I die, I will be fighting >> Till the day I die, I will be fighting >> Till the day I die, I will be fighting this fight. I'm afraid. So, I'm, you this fight. I'm afraid. So, I'm, you this fight. I'm afraid. So, I'm, you know, 61. If I live another 25 years, know, 61. If I live another 25 years, know, 61. If I live another 25 years, I'm pretty sure I'm going to be fighting I'm pretty sure I'm going to be fighting I'm pretty sure I'm going to be fighting until the day I die. But, but, you know, until the day I die. But, but, you know, until the day I die. But, but, you know, until we recognize that mental health until we recognize that mental health until we recognize that mental health starts from birth, even from in uterine, starts from birth, even from in uterine, starts from birth, even from in uterine, >> it starts from conception. >> it starts from conception. >> it starts from conception. >> It starts from conception. the last >> It starts from conception. the last >> It starts from conception. the last trimester with cortisol. Women are most trimester with cortisol. Women are most trimester with cortisol. Women are most susceptible, babies are most susceptible susceptible, babies are most susceptible susceptible, babies are most susceptible to cortisol in the last trimester. So if to cortisol in the last trimester. So if to cortisol in the last trimester. So if we were to give women 18 months of paid we were to give women 18 months of paid we were to give women 18 months of paid leave, which will never happen, but I, leave, which will never happen, but I, leave, which will never happen, but I, you know, I wish it would, then we would you know, I wish it would, then we would you know, I wish it would, then we would start, and some countries are starting start, and some countries are starting start, and some countries are starting to do this now that are more civilized to do this now that are more civilized to do this now that are more civilized than us, uh, and really do care about than us, uh, and really do care about than us, uh, and really do care about children's mental health. um you start children's mental health. um you start children's mental health. um you start to give the mother a paid leave before to give the mother a paid leave before to give the mother a paid leave before the baby's born so she can the baby's born so she can the baby's born so she can relax, get her cortisol levels down, and relax, get her cortisol levels down, and relax, get her cortisol levels down, and then prepare for this baby then prepare for this baby then prepare for this baby psychologically and emotionally. What's psychologically and emotionally. What's psychologically and emotionally. What's happening is women wait till a minute happening is women wait till a minute happening is women wait till a minute before the baby's born and they're before the baby's born and they're before the baby's born and they're totally wound up and feeling guilty totally wound up and feeling guilty totally wound up and feeling guilty about leaving their work and overwhelmed about leaving their work and overwhelmed about leaving their work and overwhelmed and then they have a baby and they're and then they have a baby and they're and then they have a baby and they're exhausted and they crash from postpartum exhausted and they crash from postpartum exhausted and they crash from postpartum depression. They also crash from depression. They also crash from depression. They also crash from postpartum depression because from the postpartum depression because from the postpartum depression because from the moment their baby is born, they're moment their baby is born, they're moment their baby is born, they're worried about when they're going to go worried about when they're going to go worried about when they're going to go back to work. back to work. back to work. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> And they're on a they're on a timer. >> And they're on a they're on a timer. >> And they're on a they're on a timer. They're on a ticker like like a They're on a ticker like like a They're on a ticker like like a basketball game. Like the it's it's uh basketball game. Like the it's it's uh basketball game. Like the it's it's uh what do they call it? A shot clock. what do they call it? A shot clock. what do they call it? A shot clock. They're on a shot clock moment. They They're on a shot clock moment. They They're on a shot clock moment. They have Right. So it's they're counting the have Right. So it's they're counting the have Right. So it's they're counting the minutes. And so what happens is that minutes. And so what happens is that minutes. And so what happens is that stress stress stress >> cortisol affects breast milk >> cortisol affects breast milk >> cortisol affects breast milk development. development. development. So, we have this phenomenon of all these So, we have this phenomenon of all these So, we have this phenomenon of all these mothers breaking down from postpartum mothers breaking down from postpartum mothers breaking down from postpartum depression, but also saying, "I'm not depression, but also saying, "I'm not depression, but also saying, "I'm not producing enough breast milk." This is a producing enough breast milk." This is a producing enough breast milk." This is a phenomenon that we never experienced phenomenon that we never experienced phenomenon that we never experienced before because cortisol affects before because cortisol affects before because cortisol affects prolactin and estrogen and breast milk prolactin and estrogen and breast milk prolactin and estrogen and breast milk development. development. development. >> A quick aside, most people think that >> A quick aside, most people think that >> A quick aside, most people think that they're dehydrated because they don't they're dehydrated because they don't they're dehydrated because they don't drink enough water. Turns out water drink enough water. Turns out water drink enough water. Turns out water alone isn't just the problem, it's also alone isn't just the problem, it's also alone isn't just the problem, it's also what's missing from it. Which is why for what's missing from it. Which is why for what's missing from it. 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Right now, you can get a free sample pack of Element's most get a free sample pack of Element's most get a free sample pack of Element's most popular flavors with your first purchase popular flavors with your first purchase popular flavors with your first purchase by going to the link in the description by going to the link in the description by going to the link in the description below or heading to below or heading to below or heading to drinklnt.com/modernwisdom. You talk about divorce as something that You talk about divorce as something that children experience almost like a death children experience almost like a death children experience almost like a death in the family. What's being lost in the family. What's being lost in the family. What's being lost psychologically? psychologically? psychologically? >> So >> So >> So when we when we have again another when we when we have again another when we when we have again another politically incorrect thing or maybe politically incorrect thing or maybe politically incorrect thing or maybe politically correct thing to say politically correct thing to say politically correct thing to say two parents, two parents, two parents, >> it's better to have a mother and father >> it's better to have a mother and father >> it's better to have a mother and father because they serve different functions. because they serve different functions. because they serve different functions. But as as they say in the UK, better to But as as they say in the UK, better to But as as they say in the UK, better to have an heir and a spare, right? So the have an heir and a spare, right? So the have an heir and a spare, right? So the idea that you have two parents means idea that you have two parents means idea that you have two parents means that if you lose one you have another. that if you lose one you have another. that if you lose one you have another. But the concept is when you have a But the concept is when you have a But the concept is when you have a nuclear family, when you have two nuclear family, when you have two nuclear family, when you have two parents, you're under the illusion that parents, you're under the illusion that parents, you're under the illusion that it's a safe nest, that it is a safe, it's a safe nest, that it is a safe, it's a safe nest, that it is a safe, stable environment in which to grow up. stable environment in which to grow up. stable environment in which to grow up. And that stability provides you with the And that stability provides you with the And that stability provides you with the emotional security you need to develop emotional security you need to develop emotional security you need to develop in a healthy way. when that sense, that in a healthy way. when that sense, that in a healthy way. when that sense, that illusion, you know, there is an illusion illusion, you know, there is an illusion illusion, you know, there is an illusion because there's no permanence in life, because there's no permanence in life, because there's no permanence in life, right? I mean, your parents could die, right? I mean, your parents could die, right? I mean, your parents could die, they could get sick, they could, you they could get sick, they could, you they could get sick, they could, you know, get hit by a bus, you know? I know, get hit by a bus, you know? I know, get hit by a bus, you know? I mean, there's no permanence, but we're mean, there's no permanence, but we're mean, there's no permanence, but we're born with a sort of a need for that born with a sort of a need for that born with a sort of a need for that illusion of permanence. Um, and in fact, illusion of permanence. Um, and in fact, illusion of permanence. Um, and in fact, people with very healthy defenses, me people with very healthy defenses, me people with very healthy defenses, me included, with everything that's going included, with everything that's going included, with everything that's going on in the world as you know, um, which on in the world as you know, um, which on in the world as you know, um, which could be crazymaking. I, my defenses could be crazymaking. I, my defenses could be crazymaking. I, my defenses help me not to obsess over it or focus help me not to obsess over it or focus help me not to obsess over it or focus on it because I can stay optimistic. My on it because I can stay optimistic. My on it because I can stay optimistic. My resilience allows me to cope with the resilience allows me to cope with the resilience allows me to cope with the adversity of the world. It's it's like adversity of the world. It's it's like adversity of the world. It's it's like having shock absorbers, right? Anna, having shock absorbers, right? Anna, having shock absorbers, right? Anna, it's and and so it's that sense of it's and and so it's that sense of it's and and so it's that sense of stability and permanence. When you stability and permanence. When you stability and permanence. When you divorce that permanence is the children divorce that permanence is the children divorce that permanence is the children are disillusioned in a way before are disillusioned in a way before are disillusioned in a way before they're ready. I always say every every they're ready. I always say every every they're ready. I always say every every child is born with the need for a sense child is born with the need for a sense child is born with the need for a sense of omnipotence in their parents. They of omnipotence in their parents. They of omnipotence in their parents. They need to believe their parents are need to believe their parents are need to believe their parents are perfect. They can do anything. perfect. They can do anything. perfect. They can do anything. >> They'll protect them. They're >> They'll protect them. They're >> They'll protect them. They're >> um >> um >> um >> Yeah. And so I always tell this story. >> Yeah. And so I always tell this story. >> Yeah. And so I always tell this story. My husband when he was a little boy um My husband when he was a little boy um My husband when he was a little boy um his father always drove was more his father always drove was more his father always drove was more traditional. His mother never drove and traditional. His mother never drove and traditional. His mother never drove and the father was in the car and he would the father was in the car and he would the father was in the car and he would sit in the back and he said I always sit in the back and he said I always sit in the back and he said I always felt like my father knew every road on felt like my father knew every road on felt like my father knew every road on every map in the whole world. That's every map in the whole world. That's every map in the whole world. That's what childhood is. Is a sense of feeling what childhood is. Is a sense of feeling what childhood is. Is a sense of feeling protected and as if your parents are protected and as if your parents are protected and as if your parents are bigger and bigger than life characters. bigger and bigger than life characters. bigger and bigger than life characters. When they divorce, you see the When they divorce, you see the When they divorce, you see the imperfections of your parents and you imperfections of your parents and you imperfections of your parents and you start to see them as human before you're start to see them as human before you're start to see them as human before you're ready, but also the impermanence of ready, but also the impermanence of ready, but also the impermanence of relationships and the lack of trust, relationships and the lack of trust, relationships and the lack of trust, right? So then you no longer necessarily right? So then you no longer necessarily right? So then you no longer necessarily trust in the permanence of those trust in the permanence of those trust in the permanence of those connections, of those romantic connections, of those romantic connections, of those romantic connections. So you know, many kids from connections. So you know, many kids from connections. So you know, many kids from divorce uh have trouble trusting in the divorce uh have trouble trusting in the divorce uh have trouble trusting in the permanence of of marriage and permanence of of marriage and permanence of of marriage and connections later on. connections later on. connections later on. um not all. So the reason I wrote this um not all. So the reason I wrote this um not all. So the reason I wrote this book is how do you how do you help them? book is how do you how do you help them? book is how do you how do you help them? The way you talk to them, the way you The way you talk to them, the way you The way you talk to them, the way you treat each other, the way you care about treat each other, the way you care about treat each other, the way you care about each other as a divorced couple, the way each other as a divorced couple, the way each other as a divorced couple, the way you work together and collaborate and you work together and collaborate and you work together and collaborate and cooperate and communicate. That's going cooperate and communicate. That's going cooperate and communicate. That's going to determine, you know, that you can put to determine, you know, that you can put to determine, you know, that you can put them first and sacrifice your desires them first and sacrifice your desires them first and sacrifice your desires and needs for fairness and put them and needs for fairness and put them and needs for fairness and put them first. All of that is going to dictate first. All of that is going to dictate first. All of that is going to dictate whether that child in the future can see whether that child in the future can see whether that child in the future can see relationships as trustworthy. Isn't Isn't >> it crazy the idea of fairness that that >> it crazy the idea of fairness that that >> it crazy the idea of fairness that that needs to be put to one side that there needs to be put to one side that there needs to be put to one side that there is something unfair to the parents that is something unfair to the parents that is something unfair to the parents that is adaptive for the kid that's good for is adaptive for the kid that's good for is adaptive for the kid that's good for them that's good for their their them that's good for their their them that's good for their their upbringing? I think a lot of children upbringing? I think a lot of children upbringing? I think a lot of children blame themselves for their parents' blame themselves for their parents' blame themselves for their parents' divorces. divorces. divorces. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Why do you think that's such a common >> Why do you think that's such a common >> Why do you think that's such a common pattern? pattern? pattern? >> It's it's magical thinking. So, children >> It's it's magical thinking. So, children >> It's it's magical thinking. So, children who are very young, um, there's a great who are very young, um, there's a great who are very young, um, there's a great commercial on television. commercial on television. commercial on television. A little boy is in a Darth Vader outfit A little boy is in a Darth Vader outfit A little boy is in a Darth Vader outfit and he's got a a a wand or whatever it's and he's got a a a wand or whatever it's and he's got a a a wand or whatever it's called. A lightsaber and he has called. A lightsaber and he has called. A lightsaber and he has >> wand. >> wand. >> wand. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. A lightsaber. A lightsaber. A lightsaber. >> Darth Vader going expel. >> Darth Vader going expel. >> Darth Vader going expel. >> A lightsaber. and he flashes it towards >> A lightsaber. and he flashes it towards >> A lightsaber. and he flashes it towards his car, the car, the family car, and his car, the car, the family car, and his car, the car, the family car, and the father is behind with the the father is behind with the the father is behind with the >> the remote control and the father >> the remote control and the father >> the remote control and the father presses it presses it presses it >> and the little boy goes, "Oh my god, I >> and the little boy goes, "Oh my god, I >> and the little boy goes, "Oh my god, I turned it off in my lightsaber." That's turned it off in my lightsaber." That's turned it off in my lightsaber." That's magical thinking. Magical thinking is magical thinking. Magical thinking is magical thinking. Magical thinking is something children have when they're something children have when they're something children have when they're very little and they outgrow, which is very little and they outgrow, which is very little and they outgrow, which is the belief that they are the center of the belief that they are the center of the belief that they are the center of the universe. It's a good thing. Um the universe. It's a good thing. Um the universe. It's a good thing. Um we're born if our parents focus on us as we're born if our parents focus on us as we're born if our parents focus on us as as if we are the center of the universe as if we are the center of the universe as if we are the center of the universe then we believe that we are the center then we believe that we are the center then we believe that we are the center of the universe and that gives us a of the universe and that gives us a of the universe and that gives us a sense of steadiness and stability and sense of steadiness and stability and sense of steadiness and stability and security from which to develop. We security from which to develop. We security from which to develop. We outgrow magical thinking where we feel outgrow magical thinking where we feel outgrow magical thinking where we feel we're in control of everything but it we're in control of everything but it we're in control of everything but it helps us to feel secure when we're helps us to feel secure when we're helps us to feel secure when we're little. So, if something bad happens to little. So, if something bad happens to little. So, if something bad happens to our parents, when we're angry at them, our parents, when we're angry at them, our parents, when we're angry at them, like if your father or mother get into a like if your father or mother get into a like if your father or mother get into a car accident and die, let's say, when car accident and die, let's say, when car accident and die, let's say, when you are really angry at them because you are really angry at them because you are really angry at them because they didn't give you that toy or, you they didn't give you that toy or, you they didn't give you that toy or, you know, and you have terrible fantasies know, and you have terrible fantasies know, and you have terrible fantasies and thoughts as a child that you wish and thoughts as a child that you wish and thoughts as a child that you wish they would die or you know, which aren't they would die or you know, which aren't they would die or you know, which aren't so terrible, they're just fantasies. so terrible, they're just fantasies. so terrible, they're just fantasies. >> And that parent actually does die, that >> And that parent actually does die, that >> And that parent actually does die, that child then feels responsible for that child then feels responsible for that child then feels responsible for that death. That's magical thinking. So death. That's magical thinking. So death. That's magical thinking. So basically they believe they control uh basically they believe they control uh basically they believe they control uh what's around them. So it's very common what's around them. So it's very common what's around them. So it's very common for children to believe that they are for children to believe that they are for children to believe that they are responsible for the breakup of their responsible for the breakup of their responsible for the breakup of their parents. And so that's one of the things parents. And so that's one of the things parents. And so that's one of the things in the book that I talk about. How do in the book that I talk about. How do in the book that I talk about. How do you talk to children so you uh disavow you talk to children so you uh disavow you talk to children so you uh disavow them of those illusions that they are them of those illusions that they are them of those illusions that they are not responsible that um you know that not responsible that um you know that not responsible that um you know that you will always love them because again you will always love them because again you will always love them because again that that destruction of that sense of that that destruction of that sense of that that destruction of that sense of permanence in a relationship and that permanence in a relationship and that permanence in a relationship and that breaking of trust. Children can easily breaking of trust. Children can easily breaking of trust. Children can easily understand parents breakup as something understand parents breakup as something understand parents breakup as something parents could do. If if parents can parents could do. If if parents can parents could do. If if parents can leave one another, then can't they leave leave one another, then can't they leave leave one another, then can't they leave them as well? them as well? them as well? >> And so there's a lot of things that >> And so there's a lot of things that >> And so there's a lot of things that parents need to consider when they talk parents need to consider when they talk parents need to consider when they talk to their children. And there is a way to to their children. And there is a way to to their children. And there is a way to talk to children about a divorce. talk to children about a divorce. talk to children about a divorce. >> Is there a sense as well like how a lot >> Is there a sense as well like how a lot >> Is there a sense as well like how a lot of attachment wounds from early of attachment wounds from early of attachment wounds from early childhood get replayed in adult childhood get replayed in adult childhood get replayed in adult relationships that if I can redeem relationships that if I can redeem relationships that if I can redeem myself in this situation, I will fix the myself in this situation, I will fix the myself in this situation, I will fix the wound that existed before? That sort of wound that existed before? That sort of wound that existed before? That sort of classic loop. Is there something similar classic loop. Is there something similar classic loop. Is there something similar to that going on with the magical to that going on with the magical to that going on with the magical thinking from the kids that if I caused thinking from the kids that if I caused thinking from the kids that if I caused it, I can fix it? This line that I wrote it, I can fix it? This line that I wrote it, I can fix it? This line that I wrote in an essay a couple of weeks ago, which in an essay a couple of weeks ago, which in an essay a couple of weeks ago, which was was was >> if as a child you're taught that you >> if as a child you're taught that you >> if as a child you're taught that you need to work hard to be loved. If you need to work hard to be loved. If you need to work hard to be loved. If you don't feel loved, you just need to work don't feel loved, you just need to work don't feel loved, you just need to work harder. harder. harder. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> And it kind of feels a little bit >> And it kind of feels a little bit >> And it kind of feels a little bit similar to that. similar to that. similar to that. >> Yeah. Absolutely. I mean, again, I think >> Yeah. Absolutely. I mean, again, I think >> Yeah. Absolutely. I mean, again, I think it's very important. I'll say this that it's very important. I'll say this that it's very important. I'll say this that if you if if you're going through a if you if if you're going through a if you if if you're going through a divorce that you get support, you know, divorce that you get support, you know, divorce that you get support, you know, and and I'm going to I'm not going to be and and I'm going to I'm not going to be and and I'm going to I'm not going to be one of those therapists who says like one of those therapists who says like one of those therapists who says like everybody needs therapy. Not everybody everybody needs therapy. Not everybody everybody needs therapy. Not everybody needs therapy, but a lot of people do, needs therapy, but a lot of people do, needs therapy, but a lot of people do, particularly if they're going through particularly if they're going through particularly if they're going through life transitions or traumas or, you life transitions or traumas or, you life transitions or traumas or, you know, and so if you think about divorce know, and so if you think about divorce know, and so if you think about divorce is a trauma for everyone, for parents, is a trauma for everyone, for parents, is a trauma for everyone, for parents, for children. for children. for children. >> And so parents need support. The one of >> And so parents need support. The one of >> And so parents need support. The one of the main reasons they need support is so the main reasons they need support is so the main reasons they need support is so they don't leak all over their children they don't leak all over their children they don't leak all over their children because it's very common for parents to because it's very common for parents to because it's very common for parents to overshare their pain with their overshare their pain with their overshare their pain with their children. children. children. leak all over their children. leak all over their children. leak all over their children. >> Treating their kid, the kid of the >> Treating their kid, the kid of the >> Treating their kid, the kid of the separation as the therapist for the separation as the therapist for the separation as the therapist for the separation. separation. separation. >> Yes. And also just as a container dump >> Yes. And also just as a container dump >> Yes. And also just as a container dump dumping into them about you know either dumping into them about you know either dumping into them about you know either oversharing about their loneliness or oversharing about their loneliness or oversharing about their loneliness or their pain or their or their sex lives their pain or their or their sex lives their pain or their or their sex lives or so. So basically parents need therapy or so. So basically parents need therapy or so. So basically parents need therapy so they can so they can raise children so they can so they can raise children so they can so they can raise children without burdening those children. without burdening those children. without burdening those children. >> Children need therapy because they can't >> Children need therapy because they can't >> Children need therapy because they can't always go to their parents and tell them always go to their parents and tell them always go to their parents and tell them what they're feeling and thinking what they're feeling and thinking what they're feeling and thinking because they might feel uncomfortable. because they might feel uncomfortable. because they might feel uncomfortable. Um and so they need a safe space that Um and so they need a safe space that Um and so they need a safe space that isn't either parent to bring their isn't either parent to bring their isn't either parent to bring their feelings. Um, that doesn't mean that feelings. Um, that doesn't mean that feelings. Um, that doesn't mean that parents aren't also safe spaces, but parents aren't also safe spaces, but parents aren't also safe spaces, but children need to have therapy to make children need to have therapy to make children need to have therapy to make sure that you're addressing these sure that you're addressing these sure that you're addressing these conflicts and these traumas early on. conflicts and these traumas early on. conflicts and these traumas early on. So, as you say, they don't carry them So, as you say, they don't carry them So, as you say, they don't carry them into adolescence and young adulthood and into adolescence and young adulthood and into adolescence and young adulthood and adulthood. adulthood. adulthood. >> What are the typical stages that >> What are the typical stages that >> What are the typical stages that children go through emotionally during a children go through emotionally during a children go through emotionally during a divorce? divorce? divorce? >> It's it's the same stage as any mourning >> It's it's the same stage as any mourning >> It's it's the same stage as any mourning process. Think of it as grief. They go process. Think of it as grief. They go process. Think of it as grief. They go through the same Kubler Ross. I always through the same Kubler Ross. I always through the same Kubler Ross. I always say grief is grief. Mourning is say grief is grief. Mourning is say grief is grief. Mourning is mourning. Uh it's a death. And so when mourning. Uh it's a death. And so when mourning. Uh it's a death. And so when when someone dies, you go through the when someone dies, you go through the when someone dies, you go through the disbelief and you go through the sadness disbelief and you go through the sadness disbelief and you go through the sadness and you go through the anger and you go and you go through the anger and you go and you go through the anger and you go through the acceptance. Um and the through the acceptance. Um and the through the acceptance. Um and the problem is if your child gets stuck or problem is if your child gets stuck or problem is if your child gets stuck or if you as a parent, as an adult, while if you as a parent, as an adult, while if you as a parent, as an adult, while you're going through a divorce, get you're going through a divorce, get you're going through a divorce, get stuck. I've had patients who've gotten stuck. I've had patients who've gotten stuck. I've had patients who've gotten stuck for de a decade in grief, meaning stuck for de a decade in grief, meaning stuck for de a decade in grief, meaning they get stuck in anger or they get they get stuck in anger or they get they get stuck in anger or they get stuck in sadness and despair where they stuck in sadness and despair where they stuck in sadness and despair where they can't. You're meant to move through can't. You're meant to move through can't. You're meant to move through grief. Um, so I'm Jewish, so we say, you grief. Um, so I'm Jewish, so we say, you grief. Um, so I'm Jewish, so we say, you know, mourning is a year, you know, uh, know, mourning is a year, you know, uh, know, mourning is a year, you know, uh, from this from the moment someone dies, from this from the moment someone dies, from this from the moment someone dies, we don't unveil the stone. We don't take we don't unveil the stone. We don't take we don't unveil the stone. We don't take a cloth off the stone. We don't put the a cloth off the stone. We don't put the a cloth off the stone. We don't put the stone up actually for a year. So, it's stone up actually for a year. So, it's stone up actually for a year. So, it's it's a year, but we have a year to go it's a year, but we have a year to go it's a year, but we have a year to go through the process, right? But then through the process, right? But then through the process, right? But then we're meant to unveil the stone and move we're meant to unveil the stone and move we're meant to unveil the stone and move on with life. Um, what's happening is on with life. Um, what's happening is on with life. Um, what's happening is that people are holding on. They're that people are holding on. They're that people are holding on. They're getting stuck like almost like a scratch getting stuck like almost like a scratch getting stuck like almost like a scratch in an old LP record. They're getting in an old LP record. They're getting in an old LP record. They're getting stuck at certain stages of the grief and stuck at certain stages of the grief and stuck at certain stages of the grief and mourning process. mourning process. mourning process. >> And they'll either get stuck in the >> And they'll either get stuck in the >> And they'll either get stuck in the depression or the disbelief or the depression or the disbelief or the depression or the disbelief or the anger, but they some many don't get to anger, but they some many don't get to anger, but they some many don't get to the acceptance stage. And children also the acceptance stage. And children also the acceptance stage. And children also aren't getting to the acceptance stage. aren't getting to the acceptance stage. aren't getting to the acceptance stage. They're getting sort of stuck in one They're getting sort of stuck in one They're getting sort of stuck in one stage of grief for another. stage of grief for another. stage of grief for another. >> How should parents tell their kids if >> How should parents tell their kids if >> How should parents tell their kids if they're divorcing they're divorcing they're divorcing >> together? >> together? >> together? Um emotionally balanced. So if you are Um emotionally balanced. So if you are Um emotionally balanced. So if you are hysterical or your partner is, that's hysterical or your partner is, that's hysterical or your partner is, that's not the time to do it. To do it in a way not the time to do it. To do it in a way not the time to do it. To do it in a way that is emotionally regulated. that is emotionally regulated. that is emotionally regulated. Um to do it in a way where you agree on Um to do it in a way where you agree on Um to do it in a way where you agree on what you're going to tell the children. what you're going to tell the children. what you're going to tell the children. Um, don't do it before a major exam. Be Um, don't do it before a major exam. Be Um, don't do it before a major exam. Be sensitive. You know, this is like the sensitive. You know, this is like the sensitive. You know, this is like the fact that you have to tell people, fact that you have to tell people, fact that you have to tell people, please be sensitive. Don't do it at a please be sensitive. Don't do it at a please be sensitive. Don't do it at a time when your children are very time when your children are very time when your children are very stressed at school or stressed socially stressed at school or stressed socially stressed at school or stressed socially or about to play a big game or a big or about to play a big game or a big or about to play a big game or a big concert or, you know, don't do it at a concert or, you know, don't do it at a concert or, you know, don't do it at a major holiday. Don't do it at Christmas major holiday. Don't do it at Christmas major holiday. Don't do it at Christmas time. I'm not Christian, but don't do it time. I'm not Christian, but don't do it time. I'm not Christian, but don't do it at Hanukkah. Don't because that holiday at Hanukkah. Don't because that holiday at Hanukkah. Don't because that holiday will forever be associated with that will forever be associated with that will forever be associated with that divorce, right? They'll never be able to divorce, right? They'll never be able to divorce, right? They'll never be able to love love love again. Uh, don't do it on their birthday again. Uh, don't do it on their birthday again. Uh, don't do it on their birthday because they'll never like their because they'll never like their because they'll never like their birthday. birthday. birthday. >> How much of a dick do you have to be as >> How much of a dick do you have to be as >> How much of a dick do you have to be as a parent? a parent? a parent? >> I'm surprised. >> I'm surprised. >> I'm surprised. >> Happy birthday also. >> Happy birthday also. >> Happy birthday also. >> Yeah. Yeah. And you know, so >> Yeah. Yeah. And you know, so >> Yeah. Yeah. And you know, so I suppose you could do it on vacation I suppose you could do it on vacation I suppose you could do it on vacation when you have a whole week to spend when you have a whole week to spend when you have a whole week to spend together and process and go for walks together and process and go for walks together and process and go for walks and talk about things. and talk about things. and talk about things. I suppose that's not going to tether it I suppose that's not going to tether it I suppose that's not going to tether it to some geographical location. The kid to some geographical location. The kid to some geographical location. The kid might have to go back to the living might have to go back to the living might have to go back to the living room. This is the that's the seat where room. This is the that's the seat where room. This is the that's the seat where I sat. I sat. I sat. >> That's right. So, somebody said to me, >> That's right. So, somebody said to me, >> That's right. So, somebody said to me, "Well, if you're going to This is an "Well, if you're going to This is an "Well, if you're going to This is an analogy, mind you. If you're going to analogy, mind you. If you're going to analogy, mind you. If you're going to neuter your dog, make sure that you take neuter your dog, make sure that you take neuter your dog, make sure that you take them to a vet that you never ever want them to a vet that you never ever want them to a vet that you never ever want them to go to again." them to go to again." them to go to again." >> Bingo. >> Bingo. >> Bingo. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Take them to a crap holiday destination >> Take them to a crap holiday destination >> Take them to a crap holiday destination that they're never going to want to go that they're never going to want to go that they're never going to want to go back to. It was bad enough already back to. It was bad enough already back to. It was bad enough already >> and spend a week there and process it >> and spend a week there and process it >> and spend a week there and process it with them. Um Yeah. So, so basically the with them. Um Yeah. So, so basically the with them. Um Yeah. So, so basically the idea is just be wise and sensitive about idea is just be wise and sensitive about idea is just be wise and sensitive about it. I mean think about the fact that how it. I mean think about the fact that how it. I mean think about the fact that how you tell them will always be referred you tell them will always be referred you tell them will always be referred back to in their mind. How and where. back to in their mind. How and where. back to in their mind. How and where. >> What sort of explanations are >> What sort of explanations are >> What sort of explanations are psychologically helpful and which should psychologically helpful and which should psychologically helpful and which should never be said? You never want to say um I never loved You never want to say um I never loved your mother or I never loved your father your mother or I never loved your father your mother or I never loved your father because or I wish that I had never because or I wish that I had never because or I wish that I had never married that person or been with that married that person or been with that married that person or been with that person because what's implied there? person because what's implied there? person because what's implied there? I'll let you answer that one. I'll let you answer that one. I'll let you answer that one. >> Uh >> Uh >> Uh the family unit that you thought was the family unit that you thought was the family unit that you thought was secure was never secure and your ability secure was never secure and your ability secure was never secure and your ability to understand what is and is not to understand what is and is not to understand what is and is not attachment was wrong all along. You attachment was wrong all along. You attachment was wrong all along. You should never have been born. should never have been born. should never have been born. >> And that >> And that >> And that >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> downstream from I didn't love them is >> downstream from I didn't love them is >> downstream from I didn't love them is and we shouldn't have had you. and we shouldn't have had you. and we shouldn't have had you. >> Right. Right. I wish I'd never met your >> Right. Right. I wish I'd never met your >> Right. Right. I wish I'd never met your father. father. father. >> I wish I'd never married your mother. It >> I wish I'd never married your mother. It >> I wish I'd never married your mother. It was a mistake. was a mistake. was a mistake. >> This is more than just the we're getting >> This is more than just the we're getting >> This is more than just the we're getting divorced conversation. This is now two divorced conversation. This is now two divorced conversation. This is now two years later, the very difficult night years later, the very difficult night years later, the very difficult night where all of the co-parenting schedules where all of the co-parenting schedules where all of the co-parenting schedules have fallen apart and I wish I'd never have fallen apart and I wish I'd never have fallen apart and I wish I'd never met them. I wish I'd never met them. I wish I'd never met them. I wish I'd never >> Children want to know that they were >> Children want to know that they were >> Children want to know that they were born out of love. born out of love. born out of love. >> It's hard. I've had families where it's >> It's hard. I've had families where it's >> It's hard. I've had families where it's been like a one night stand been like a one night stand been like a one night stand and they say, "How do I talk about it and they say, "How do I talk about it and they say, "How do I talk about it then?" And I say, "Well, you say you then?" And I say, "Well, you say you then?" And I say, "Well, you say you were young and it was the illusion of were young and it was the illusion of were young and it was the illusion of love. You thought you loved the person." love. You thought you loved the person." love. You thought you loved the person." That's okay. But to say that all That's okay. But to say that all That's okay. But to say that all children want to be conceived out of children want to be conceived out of children want to be conceived out of love. love. love. They want to be wanted. You know, They want to be wanted. You know, They want to be wanted. You know, there's this whole issue of we say there's this whole issue of we say there's this whole issue of we say adopting children is a mitzvah. It is a adopting children is a mitzvah. It is a adopting children is a mitzvah. It is a great blessing, but it's really hard to great blessing, but it's really hard to great blessing, but it's really hard to and you need to know when you adopt and you need to know when you adopt and you need to know when you adopt children that it's hard because that children that it's hard because that children that it's hard because that child, no matter how wonderful you are, child, no matter how wonderful you are, child, no matter how wonderful you are, you're always going to have to address you're always going to have to address you're always going to have to address and and and help that child. Again, it's a mitzvah help that child. Again, it's a mitzvah help that child. Again, it's a mitzvah because you're helping that child to because you're helping that child to because you're helping that child to overcome a conflict and a trauma, which overcome a conflict and a trauma, which overcome a conflict and a trauma, which is that their biological parents didn't is that their biological parents didn't is that their biological parents didn't want them. want them. want them. >> Before we continue, as you're probably >> Before we continue, as you're probably >> Before we continue, as you're probably aware, I'm not a massive drinker, at aware, I'm not a massive drinker, at aware, I'm not a massive drinker, at least not anymore. But even if you too least not anymore. But even if you too least not anymore. But even if you too are not drinking, sometimes you just are not drinking, sometimes you just are not drinking, sometimes you just want something cold, frosty, and tasty want something cold, frosty, and tasty want something cold, frosty, and tasty without the fear of a hangover the next without the fear of a hangover the next without the fear of a hangover the next day. Which is why I'm such a huge fan of day. Which is why I'm such a huge fan of day. Which is why I'm such a huge fan of Athletic Brewing Co. Thank you very Athletic Brewing Co. Thank you very Athletic Brewing Co. Thank you very much. Their non-alcoholic brews taste much. Their non-alcoholic brews taste much. Their non-alcoholic brews taste just as good as the real thing. They've just as good as the real thing. They've just as good as the real thing. They've got IPAs, hazy goldens. They're so good got IPAs, hazy goldens. They're so good got IPAs, hazy goldens. They're so good that you'll forget that there's no that you'll forget that there's no that you'll forget that there's no alcohol in them until you wake up the alcohol in them until you wake up the alcohol in them until you wake up the next day feeling fantastic. It means next day feeling fantastic. It means next day feeling fantastic. It means that you can enjoy the ritual without that you can enjoy the ritual without that you can enjoy the ritual without the wreckage. No hangover, no 3:00 a.m. the wreckage. No hangover, no 3:00 a.m. the wreckage. No hangover, no 3:00 a.m. panic, no wasted Sunday recovering from panic, no wasted Sunday recovering from panic, no wasted Sunday recovering from Saturday. That is why I partnered with Saturday. That is why I partnered with Saturday. That is why I partnered with them. You can find Athletic Brew and them. You can find Athletic Brew and them. 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Get up to 15% off your first online order by going to the link in the online order by going to the link in the online order by going to the link in the description below or heading to description below or heading to description below or heading to athleticbwing.com/modern athleticbwing.com/modern athleticbwing.com/modern wisdom using the code modern wisdom at wisdom using the code modern wisdom at wisdom using the code modern wisdom at checkout. That's checkout. That's checkout. That's athleticbwing.com/modernwisdom athleticbwing.com/modernwisdom athleticbwing.com/modernwisdom and modern wisdom at checkout. Near and modern wisdom at checkout. Near and modern wisdom at checkout. Near beer, terms and conditions apply. beer, terms and conditions apply. beer, terms and conditions apply. Athletic brewing company fit for all Athletic brewing company fit for all Athletic brewing company fit for all times. You know James, my business times. You know James, my business times. You know James, my business partner in Newtonic. He was adopted. Do partner in Newtonic. He was adopted. Do partner in Newtonic. He was adopted. Do you know that Jared? you know that Jared? you know that Jared? >> No, I didn't know. >> No, I didn't know. >> No, I didn't know. >> James is adopted. James says that he is >> James is adopted. James says that he is >> James is adopted. James says that he is the closest advocate for the abortion the closest advocate for the abortion the closest advocate for the abortion community that exists because if you community that exists because if you community that exists because if you were adopted at some point there was a were adopted at some point there was a were adopted at some point there was a conversation and he literally says no conversation and he literally says no conversation and he literally says no one speaks for the aborted community. one speaks for the aborted community. one speaks for the aborted community. I will that's his one source of I will that's his one source of I will that's his one source of privilege that he's got. Um but yeah and privilege that he's got. Um but yeah and privilege that he's got. Um but yeah and you know the mad thing the maddest thing you know the mad thing the maddest thing you know the mad thing the maddest thing is James has just got the most secure is James has just got the most secure is James has just got the most secure high self-esteem confident attachment high self-esteem confident attachment high self-esteem confident attachment thing. both of his parents absolutely thing. both of his parents absolutely thing. both of his parents absolutely love him and uh he's still got fantastic love him and uh he's still got fantastic love him and uh he's still got fantastic relationship with both of them and um relationship with both of them and um relationship with both of them and um >> but you have to deal with it and so yes >> but you have to deal with it and so yes >> but you have to deal with it and so yes so adopting children is a mitzvah but so adopting children is a mitzvah but so adopting children is a mitzvah but you have to know how to help them with you have to know how to help them with you have to know how to help them with that because that what's a mitzvah that because that what's a mitzvah that because that what's a mitzvah >> oh in it's a blessing we say it's a >> oh in it's a blessing we say it's a >> oh in it's a blessing we say it's a blessing it's the greatest blessing um blessing it's the greatest blessing um blessing it's the greatest blessing um but but it's it is something you have to but but it's it is something you have to but but it's it is something you have to to deal with you have to know that to deal with you have to know that to deal with you have to know that that's a part of the underlying that's a part of the underlying that's a part of the underlying unconscious feeling is did my parents unconscious feeling is did my parents unconscious feeling is did my parents want me? And it's the same with children want me? And it's the same with children want me? And it's the same with children that go through a divorce. that go through a divorce. that go through a divorce. >> Am I the cause of this divorce? Did my >> Am I the cause of this divorce? Did my >> Am I the cause of this divorce? Did my parents conceive me out of love? Did parents conceive me out of love? Did parents conceive me out of love? Did they ever love one another? they ever love one another? they ever love one another? >> And so, you know, I would say that most >> And so, you know, I would say that most >> And so, you know, I would say that most parents conceive children when they parents conceive children when they parents conceive children when they loved one another. I would say most, you loved one another. I would say most, you loved one another. I would say most, you know, or at least there was the know, or at least there was the know, or at least there was the perception of love, right? The illusion perception of love, right? The illusion perception of love, right? The illusion of love. Um, and so you want to give of love. Um, and so you want to give of love. Um, and so you want to give children that. You want to give them children that. You want to give them children that. You want to give them that perception, that illusion, uh that that perception, that illusion, uh that that perception, that illusion, uh that reality that you know that that we loved reality that you know that that we loved reality that you know that that we loved each other very much and you were each other very much and you were each other very much and you were conceived in love and brought into this conceived in love and brought into this conceived in love and brought into this world in love. But we adults sometimes world in love. But we adults sometimes world in love. But we adults sometimes fall out of love, but they never ever fall out of love, but they never ever fall out of love, but they never ever ever fall out of love with their ever fall out of love with their ever fall out of love with their children. children. children. >> That's a good point. What role does >> That's a good point. What role does >> That's a good point. What role does honesty play versus protecting children honesty play versus protecting children honesty play versus protecting children from adult realities? Mhm. from adult realities? Mhm. from adult realities? Mhm. So I always say that honesty children So I always say that honesty children So I always say that honesty children have [ __ ] meters so they know when have [ __ ] meters so they know when have [ __ ] meters so they know when you're lying to them. So you don't want you're lying to them. So you don't want you're lying to them. So you don't want to lie out and out blatantly lie to to lie out and out blatantly lie to to lie out and out blatantly lie to them, but you have to be sensitive in them, but you have to be sensitive in them, but you have to be sensitive in your truths, right? You have to be um your truths, right? You have to be um your truths, right? You have to be um discriminating in your truths and how discriminating in your truths and how discriminating in your truths and how you how you describe those truths. So you how you describe those truths. So you how you describe those truths. So you can tell children the truth. I think you can tell children the truth. I think you can tell children the truth. I think that a lot of parents lie to their that a lot of parents lie to their that a lot of parents lie to their children or make promises to their children or make promises to their children or make promises to their children because they feel guilty. children because they feel guilty. children because they feel guilty. That's dangerous. So, meaning That's dangerous. So, meaning That's dangerous. So, meaning if you're divorcing and um your child if you're divorcing and um your child if you're divorcing and um your child asks you, you know, um will we still asks you, you know, um will we still asks you, you know, um will we still have holidays together? What we what have holidays together? What we what have holidays together? What we what will we do about Christmas? will we do about Christmas? will we do about Christmas? >> Saying to them, oh, no, we're still a >> Saying to them, oh, no, we're still a >> Saying to them, oh, no, we're still a family. will always, you know, I always family. will always, you know, I always family. will always, you know, I always think this is funny. This is there's a think this is funny. This is there's a think this is funny. This is there's a division in the community that deals division in the community that deals division in the community that deals with divorcing families and this idea of with divorcing families and this idea of with divorcing families and this idea of that we're still a family. Um, it's a that we're still a family. Um, it's a that we're still a family. Um, it's a complicated thing to say we're still a complicated thing to say we're still a complicated thing to say we're still a family. Um, yes, in some form we're family. Um, yes, in some form we're family. Um, yes, in some form we're still a family, but usually divorced still a family, but usually divorced still a family, but usually divorced families don't spend holidays together. families don't spend holidays together. families don't spend holidays together. Uh, maybe they do in the beginning, but Uh, maybe they do in the beginning, but Uh, maybe they do in the beginning, but eventually they don't. And so to promise eventually they don't. And so to promise eventually they don't. And so to promise your child that nothing is going to your child that nothing is going to your child that nothing is going to change in their life, in their living change in their life, in their living change in their life, in their living situation, in their school, you do want situation, in their school, you do want situation, in their school, you do want to keep as much the same as possible. to keep as much the same as possible. to keep as much the same as possible. You want to disrupt as little as You want to disrupt as little as You want to disrupt as little as possible in a child's life, particularly possible in a child's life, particularly possible in a child's life, particularly in the first year. But to make promises in the first year. But to make promises in the first year. But to make promises that you can't keep to them, um, is that you can't keep to them, um, is that you can't keep to them, um, is perceived by children as lies and a perceived by children as lies and a perceived by children as lies and a further breach in trust. further breach in trust. further breach in trust. I wonder, I wonder, I wonder, let's say that I gave you the task of let's say that I gave you the task of let's say that I gave you the task of trying to design the worst possible trying to design the worst possible trying to design the worst possible divorce for a child to go through. divorce for a child to go through. divorce for a child to go through. >> That is to say, what is the worst way >> That is to say, what is the worst way >> That is to say, what is the worst way that two people could get divorced? How that two people could get divorced? How that two people could get divorced? How would they talk about it? What would would they talk about it? What would would they talk about it? What would they do? How would they tell them? How they do? How would they tell them? How they do? How would they tell them? How would that roll over time? would that roll over time? would that roll over time? >> Oh dear. >> Oh dear. >> Oh dear. >> What would that look like? >> What would that look like? >> What would that look like? >> How much time do we have? Um, because I >> How much time do we have? Um, because I >> How much time do we have? Um, because I treat some of those cases. It's very sad treat some of those cases. It's very sad treat some of those cases. It's very sad for me to treat. for me to treat. for me to treat. >> Well, you've got inspiration then. You >> Well, you've got inspiration then. You >> Well, you've got inspiration then. You should. This should be easy. should. This should be easy. should. This should be easy. Um the worst cases are the cases where Um the worst cases are the cases where Um the worst cases are the cases where one parent um one parent um one parent um I suppose I suppose I suppose betrays another parent and then it's betrays another parent and then it's betrays another parent and then it's something that the parent who's betrayed something that the parent who's betrayed something that the parent who's betrayed can't get over and so there is can't get over and so there is can't get over and so there is depression, hostility, depression, hostility, depression, hostility, um belligerance um between the two um belligerance um between the two um belligerance um between the two parents parents parents I Guess the the main things that I've I Guess the the main things that I've I Guess the the main things that I've seen are when parents treat children as seen are when parents treat children as seen are when parents treat children as possessions like a a Porsche or a car or possessions like a a Porsche or a car or possessions like a a Porsche or a car or you know like splitting a um the 50/50 you know like splitting a um the 50/50 you know like splitting a um the 50/50 piece when they treat children as piece when they treat children as piece when they treat children as possessions that is a terrible thing. possessions that is a terrible thing. possessions that is a terrible thing. Um, I think when when parents um lie to Um, I think when when parents um lie to Um, I think when when parents um lie to children in one way or another, um, when children in one way or another, um, when children in one way or another, um, when parents overshare with children, um, parents overshare with children, um, parents overshare with children, um, when parents alienate children from one when parents alienate children from one when parents alienate children from one parent or another, um, when parents are parent or another, um, when parents are parent or another, um, when parents are terrible at communicating and terrible at communicating and terrible at communicating and cooperating with each other, we call it cooperating with each other, we call it cooperating with each other, we call it co-parenting for a reason. uh when they co-parenting for a reason. uh when they co-parenting for a reason. uh when they um are more focused on themselves and um are more focused on themselves and um are more focused on themselves and their own pain and will do what's right their own pain and will do what's right their own pain and will do what's right for them but not what's good for their for them but not what's good for their for them but not what's good for their children. Um yeah, those are some of the children. Um yeah, those are some of the children. Um yeah, those are some of the >> and they did it at Christmas. >> and they did it at Christmas. >> and they did it at Christmas. >> Yeah, those are some of the top hits. >> Yeah, those are some of the top hits. >> Yeah, those are some of the top hits. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. >> Okay. And what's the inverse if you were >> Okay. And what's the inverse if you were >> Okay. And what's the inverse if you were to tactically say these are the biggest to tactically say these are the biggest to tactically say these are the biggest movers for going through a difficult movers for going through a difficult movers for going through a difficult time? Well, uh what does that look like? time? Well, uh what does that look like? time? Well, uh what does that look like? cooperation, communication, cooperation, communication, cooperation, communication, respect. You finding somewhere deep respect. You finding somewhere deep respect. You finding somewhere deep inside of you the respect and admiration inside of you the respect and admiration inside of you the respect and admiration and love that you once shared with the and love that you once shared with the and love that you once shared with the person that you had children with. You person that you had children with. You person that you had children with. You might not be in love with them anymore. might not be in love with them anymore. might not be in love with them anymore. You might even be angry at them and You might even be angry at them and You might even be angry at them and disappointed in them. but that you can disappointed in them. but that you can disappointed in them. but that you can dig deep and find some degree of respect dig deep and find some degree of respect dig deep and find some degree of respect and admiration and love for them that and admiration and love for them that and admiration and love for them that you shared with them. So you can do the you shared with them. So you can do the you shared with them. So you can do the right thing for your children. So you right thing for your children. So you right thing for your children. So you can see your children for where they are can see your children for where they are can see your children for where they are developmentally and in age and know that developmentally and in age and know that developmentally and in age and know that in the scheme of life, you know, for in the scheme of life, you know, for in the scheme of life, you know, for women who have careers and want women who have careers and want women who have careers and want children, I always say, you know, you children, I always say, you know, you children, I always say, you know, you can do everything in life, you just can do everything in life, you just can do everything in life, you just can't do it all at the same time. And can't do it all at the same time. And can't do it all at the same time. And I'm going to say it's the same with I'm going to say it's the same with I'm going to say it's the same with divorce. divorce. divorce. You know, throughout a child's life, you You know, throughout a child's life, you You know, throughout a child's life, you are going to get a lot of love and are going to get a lot of love and are going to get a lot of love and attention and connection to that child, attention and connection to that child, attention and connection to that child, but you may not get it all at the same but you may not get it all at the same but you may not get it all at the same time as the other parent. time as the other parent. time as the other parent. >> So, the competition between parents >> So, the competition between parents >> So, the competition between parents sometimes sometimes sometimes um sort of overwhelms what a child may um sort of overwhelms what a child may um sort of overwhelms what a child may need or maybe usurps what a child may need or maybe usurps what a child may need or maybe usurps what a child may need. So, you know, the idea of working need. So, you know, the idea of working need. So, you know, the idea of working collaboratively, having good open collaboratively, having good open collaboratively, having good open communication, having some respect and communication, having some respect and communication, having some respect and admiration for the partner that you have admiration for the partner that you have admiration for the partner that you have the child with, and then living close the child with, and then living close the child with, and then living close together. You know, the other thing is together. You know, the other thing is together. You know, the other thing is that the best co-parenting situations that the best co-parenting situations that the best co-parenting situations are ones where parents live close to are ones where parents live close to are ones where parents live close to each other, close enough that they each other, close enough that they each other, close enough that they children can go easily back and forth children can go easily back and forth children can go easily back and forth and and and >> don't have to put them on a flight. >> don't have to put them on a flight. >> don't have to put them on a flight. The other thing I will say is there is a The other thing I will say is there is a The other thing I will say is there is a trend in America to do this 232 trend in America to do this 232 trend in America to do this 232 um you know custody arrangement which is um you know custody arrangement which is um you know custody arrangement which is like treating children like they're a like treating children like they're a like treating children like they're a sack of potatoes. Children hate it. And sack of potatoes. Children hate it. And sack of potatoes. Children hate it. And when they grow up when they grow up when they grow up >> two days with one parent, three days >> two days with one parent, three days >> two days with one parent, three days with another another parent, two days with another another parent, two days with another another parent, two days with two, three, two, three, two, three. with two, three, two, three, two, three. with two, three, two, three, two, three. It's like a it's like a dance. Two-step It's like a it's like a dance. Two-step It's like a it's like a dance. Two-step dance. dance. dance. It drives children crazy. And when they It drives children crazy. And when they It drives children crazy. And when they grow up, teenagers and young adults will grow up, teenagers and young adults will grow up, teenagers and young adults will say, "The worst thing for me was that I say, "The worst thing for me was that I say, "The worst thing for me was that I was thrown back and forth like a sack of was thrown back and forth like a sack of was thrown back and forth like a sack of potatoes." potatoes." potatoes." >> Why is it so bad? Why is 232 so bad for >> Why is it so bad? Why is 232 so bad for >> Why is it so bad? Why is 232 so bad for children? children? children? >> Because >> Because >> Because they need stability, particularly during they need stability, particularly during they need stability, particularly during the week when they're in school. They the week when they're in school. They the week when they're in school. They need to feel that they have a primary need to feel that they have a primary need to feel that they have a primary residence where they can lay their head residence where they can lay their head residence where they can lay their head down on the same pillow and they have down on the same pillow and they have down on the same pillow and they have some stability. this idea of so you know some stability. this idea of so you know some stability. this idea of so you know for anybody who's ever had two homes for anybody who's ever had two homes for anybody who's ever had two homes either intentionally involuntarily or either intentionally involuntarily or either intentionally involuntarily or involuntarily you know what it's like to involuntarily you know what it's like to involuntarily you know what it's like to have to move from home to home to home have to move from home to home to home have to move from home to home to home to home it's crazy making and for a to home it's crazy making and for a to home it's crazy making and for a child who's already feeling destabilized child who's already feeling destabilized child who's already feeling destabilized um I always say in the first year the um I always say in the first year the um I always say in the first year the best is to do something called nesting best is to do something called nesting best is to do something called nesting where they don't have to move at all I where they don't have to move at all I where they don't have to move at all I always recommend that for a year no more always recommend that for a year no more always recommend that for a year no more than a year than a year than a year >> put them in one location and have the >> put them in one location and have the >> put them in one location and have the other parent come to visit They stay in other parent come to visit They stay in other parent come to visit They stay in their home. They stay in their home and their home. They stay in their home and their home. They stay in their home and the parents come and go. the parents come and go. the parents come and go. >> So the parents have a separate apartment >> So the parents have a separate apartment >> So the parents have a separate apartment and so um so and that's fine for a year and so um so and that's fine for a year and so um so and that's fine for a year but after that that you find an but after that that you find an but after that that you find an arrangement where the children can have arrangement where the children can have arrangement where the children can have a primary residence and this is also a primary residence and this is also a primary residence and this is also very controversial because you know very controversial because you know very controversial because you know everybody wants to see this thing as a everybody wants to see this thing as a everybody wants to see this thing as a fairness thing and everybody has to have fairness thing and everybody has to have fairness thing and everybody has to have their you know like I'll take the legs their you know like I'll take the legs their you know like I'll take the legs you take the arms but what children you take the arms but what children you take the arms but what children actually need is stability. They need to actually need is stability. They need to actually need is stability. They need to feel they have a secure and primary home feel they have a secure and primary home feel they have a secure and primary home >> and make go ahead. >> and make go ahead. >> and make go ahead. >> And then so the old arrangements >> And then so the old arrangements >> And then so the old arrangements interestingly the old arrangements interestingly the old arrangements interestingly the old arrangements um which now are considered pay where a um which now are considered pay where a um which now are considered pay where a child lived with a mother during the child lived with a mother during the child lived with a mother during the week and then spent weekends with the week and then spent weekends with the week and then spent weekends with the father or maybe was with the father father or maybe was with the father father or maybe was with the father Friday through Sunday morning. That Friday through Sunday morning. That Friday through Sunday morning. That works far better because the child isn't works far better because the child isn't works far better because the child isn't in school. the child can be home, come in school. the child can be home, come in school. the child can be home, come home every day, do their homework in the home every day, do their homework in the home every day, do their homework in the same place and have a sense of stability same place and have a sense of stability same place and have a sense of stability and then go to the father on weekends. and then go to the father on weekends. and then go to the father on weekends. Or if the father's the primary Or if the father's the primary Or if the father's the primary attachment figure, the the child lives attachment figure, the the child lives attachment figure, the the child lives with the father during the week and then with the father during the week and then with the father during the week and then goes to the mother on the weekends. But goes to the mother on the weekends. But goes to the mother on the weekends. But the idea of having a primary stable the idea of having a primary stable the idea of having a primary stable residence is far better for children. residence is far better for children. residence is far better for children. And that doesn't mean that the parent And that doesn't mean that the parent And that doesn't mean that the parent who's not living with the child during who's not living with the child during who's not living with the child during the week can't see the child. You know, the week can't see the child. You know, the week can't see the child. You know, you can come and you can have dinners you can come and you can have dinners you can come and you can have dinners and you can have mock sleepovers and you and you can have mock sleepovers and you and you can have mock sleepovers and you can pick the child up from school and can pick the child up from school and can pick the child up from school and take them to soccer practice and but take them to soccer practice and but take them to soccer practice and but it's the idea of where you sleep. You it's the idea of where you sleep. You it's the idea of where you sleep. You travel a lot. I know, right? You travel travel a lot. I know, right? You travel travel a lot. I know, right? You travel a lot and I travel a lot for what we do. a lot and I travel a lot for what we do. a lot and I travel a lot for what we do. You know what it feels like too. It's You know what it feels like too. It's You know what it feels like too. It's like being almost like in a in a band, like being almost like in a in a band, like being almost like in a in a band, you know, where you're like have one gig you know, where you're like have one gig you know, where you're like have one gig and it's very destabilizing to not sleep and it's very destabilizing to not sleep and it's very destabilizing to not sleep in the same place and have a home. And I in the same place and have a home. And I in the same place and have a home. And I think that's what it feels like to think that's what it feels like to think that's what it feels like to children. And they resent that more than children. And they resent that more than children. And they resent that more than anything. I would tell parents who are anything. I would tell parents who are anything. I would tell parents who are listening, children resent that more listening, children resent that more listening, children resent that more than anything. than anything. than anything. >> Consciously resent it. >> Consciously resent it. >> Consciously resent it. >> Consciously resent it. >> Consciously resent it. >> Consciously resent it. >> And tell parents they resent it. >> And tell parents they resent it. >> And tell parents they resent it. >> What is the longest amount of time that >> What is the longest amount of time that >> What is the longest amount of time that kids should go without seeing the other kids should go without seeing the other kids should go without seeing the other parent? parent? parent? >> I think parents should see children >> I think parents should see children >> I think parents should see children every day if they can. So, if I live every day if they can. So, if I live every day if they can. So, if I live down the street from you, I I don't down the street from you, I I don't down the street from you, I I don't recommend that people live in the same recommend that people live in the same recommend that people live in the same building, but sometimes it works for a building, but sometimes it works for a building, but sometimes it works for a variety of reasons. I think it can be variety of reasons. I think it can be variety of reasons. I think it can be problematic. But if you live down the problematic. But if you live down the problematic. But if you live down the street or a block away where you can street or a block away where you can street or a block away where you can still stay in the routine of walking still stay in the routine of walking still stay in the routine of walking your child to school or picking them up your child to school or picking them up your child to school or picking them up from school or going to soccer practice from school or going to soccer practice from school or going to soccer practice with them, um that's a very good thing with them, um that's a very good thing with them, um that's a very good thing for children where a lot of the routines for children where a lot of the routines for children where a lot of the routines that they may have had with the parent that they may have had with the parent that they may have had with the parent aren't disrupted. Um, so that can be a aren't disrupted. Um, so that can be a aren't disrupted. Um, so that can be a very good thing where parents are very good thing where parents are very good thing where parents are geographically close and they continue geographically close and they continue geographically close and they continue to do the same things they always did to do the same things they always did to do the same things they always did that on a daily basis. You know, if that on a daily basis. You know, if that on a daily basis. You know, if Tuesday night was pizza night at the Tuesday night was pizza night at the Tuesday night was pizza night at the house, then your dad takes you out for house, then your dad takes you out for house, then your dad takes you out for pizza on Tuesday nights or but then pizza on Tuesday nights or but then pizza on Tuesday nights or but then brings you home to sleep in your bed brings you home to sleep in your bed brings you home to sleep in your bed that you're used to. Um the things that that you're used to. Um the things that that you're used to. Um the things that you do now when your children are young you do now when your children are young you do now when your children are young and you're going through a divorce are and you're going through a divorce are and you're going through a divorce are going to be appreciated in the long run. going to be appreciated in the long run. going to be appreciated in the long run. They may not say to you the kids, "Thank They may not say to you the kids, "Thank They may not say to you the kids, "Thank you, mommy. Thank you, daddy." But in you, mommy. Thank you, daddy." But in you, mommy. Thank you, daddy." But in the long run, your children will see. the long run, your children will see. the long run, your children will see. They will know whether you have been They will know whether you have been They will know whether you have been willing to sacrifice your own personal willing to sacrifice your own personal willing to sacrifice your own personal desires and needs for them. And in the desires and needs for them. And in the desires and needs for them. And in the long run, it will pay off in terms of long run, it will pay off in terms of long run, it will pay off in terms of the relationship with them. But yes, the relationship with them. But yes, the relationship with them. But yes, parents should have regular access to parents should have regular access to parents should have regular access to their children. And if they're their children. And if they're their children. And if they're geographically connected, then I don't geographically connected, then I don't geographically connected, then I don't actually like the 232 because what it actually like the 232 because what it actually like the 232 because what it assumes is that on those two days or assumes is that on those two days or assumes is that on those two days or three days, the child can't see the three days, the child can't see the three days, the child can't see the other parent. other parent. other parent. >> Mhm. Yeah. It's an all or nothing, black >> Mhm. Yeah. It's an all or nothing, black >> Mhm. Yeah. It's an all or nothing, black to white to black to white. Yeah. to white to black to white. Yeah. to white to black to white. Yeah. >> And then I have situations where parents >> And then I have situations where parents >> And then I have situations where parents move out of state where they're move out of state where they're move out of state where they're literally I can't tell you how many literally I can't tell you how many literally I can't tell you how many people call me to do expert witness for people call me to do expert witness for people call me to do expert witness for their cases. their cases. their cases. And these cases are so incredibly sad to And these cases are so incredibly sad to And these cases are so incredibly sad to me. And I cannot take all the cases that me. And I cannot take all the cases that me. And I cannot take all the cases that I'm asked to to be expert witness on, I'm asked to to be expert witness on, I'm asked to to be expert witness on, but cases where parents have moved out but cases where parents have moved out but cases where parents have moved out of state and they literally want to take of state and they literally want to take of state and they literally want to take a breastfeeding baby away from a mother a breastfeeding baby away from a mother a breastfeeding baby away from a mother for a week at a time to be in another for a week at a time to be in another for a week at a time to be in another state to be handed over to a caregiver state to be handed over to a caregiver state to be handed over to a caregiver or put in daycare or to a grandmother or put in daycare or to a grandmother or put in daycare or to a grandmother because that way they possess that because that way they possess that because that way they possess that child. I'm like, first of all, parents child. I'm like, first of all, parents child. I'm like, first of all, parents shouldn't be allowed to move out of shouldn't be allowed to move out of shouldn't be allowed to move out of state. I mean, and if they move out of state. I mean, and if they move out of state. I mean, and if they move out of state, then the other parent has to go state, then the other parent has to go state, then the other parent has to go with them. This idea that you can take with them. This idea that you can take with them. This idea that you can take babies away from parents, babies away from parents, babies away from parents, it shouldn't be allowed it shouldn't be allowed it shouldn't be allowed >> or that if you move out of state that >> or that if you move out of state that >> or that if you move out of state that you give up your custody rights. you give up your custody rights. you give up your custody rights. >> That's it. Or you come and visit on >> That's it. Or you come and visit on >> That's it. Or you come and visit on weekends or vacations. but that somehow weekends or vacations. but that somehow weekends or vacations. but that somehow you're not pulling the baby apart for you're not pulling the baby apart for you're not pulling the baby apart for your own personal satisfaction and your own personal satisfaction and your own personal satisfaction and fairness. fairness. fairness. >> It certainly seems like it's the onus is >> It certainly seems like it's the onus is >> It certainly seems like it's the onus is on the parents that moves away even if on the parents that moves away even if on the parents that moves away even if they weren't the one that was the they weren't the one that was the they weren't the one that was the departure from the relationship. departure from the relationship. departure from the relationship. >> It should be that way. The onus should >> It should be that way. The onus should >> It should be that way. The onus should be on them to have to make the be on them to have to make the be on them to have to make the accommodation. accommodation. accommodation. >> You know, the other thing is this is a >> You know, the other thing is this is a >> You know, the other thing is this is a very common situation now which is very very common situation now which is very very common situation now which is very frustrating to me. If one parent is a frustrating to me. If one parent is a frustrating to me. If one parent is a stay-at-home parent, and let's say it's stay-at-home parent, and let's say it's stay-at-home parent, and let's say it's the mother, but it could also be the the mother, but it could also be the the mother, but it could also be the father. If one of parent was the primary father. If one of parent was the primary father. If one of parent was the primary attachment figure and the stay-at-home attachment figure and the stay-at-home attachment figure and the stay-at-home parent, and the other parent was working parent, and the other parent was working parent, and the other parent was working full-time full-time full-time and that situation is going to continue, and that situation is going to continue, and that situation is going to continue, then or even if the mother or the then or even if the mother or the then or even if the mother or the primary attachment figure works primary attachment figure works primary attachment figure works part-time and the father works part-time and the father works part-time and the father works full-time, let's just say that for now. full-time, let's just say that for now. full-time, let's just say that for now. And but the father wants the child half And but the father wants the child half And but the father wants the child half the time, but the child could be with the time, but the child could be with the time, but the child could be with the mother if the father's traveling or the mother if the father's traveling or the mother if the father's traveling or is working 10-hour days. There are is working 10-hour days. There are is working 10-hour days. There are parents who would rather take the child parents who would rather take the child parents who would rather take the child away from the spouse who could watch away from the spouse who could watch away from the spouse who could watch that child and be with that child and that child and be with that child and that child and be with that child and care for that child and put that child care for that child and put that child care for that child and put that child in daycare in daycare in daycare or give that child over to a babysitter or give that child over to a babysitter or give that child over to a babysitter rather than allowing a mother or a the rather than allowing a mother or a the rather than allowing a mother or a the primary parent to care for them. This is primary parent to care for them. This is primary parent to care for them. This is happening all the time and it's happening all the time and it's happening all the time and it's selfishness. It is pure unadulterated selfishness. It is pure unadulterated selfishness. It is pure unadulterated selfishness. And it is very hard for me selfishness. And it is very hard for me selfishness. And it is very hard for me to see parents being selfish in the face to see parents being selfish in the face to see parents being selfish in the face of a divorce. It's the one thing I can't of a divorce. It's the one thing I can't of a divorce. It's the one thing I can't abide by. abide by. abide by. >> Before we continue, if you care about >> Before we continue, if you care about >> Before we continue, if you care about what you're putting in your body, what you're putting in your body, what you're putting in your body, protein powder is probably the protein powder is probably the protein powder is probably the supplement that you think least about. supplement that you think least about. supplement that you think least about. 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Uh I'm trying to sort of put myself in the I'm trying to sort of put myself in the I'm trying to sort of put myself in the mind as somebody that's never been mind as somebody that's never been mind as somebody that's never been married and doesn't have a kid. Uh I'm married and doesn't have a kid. Uh I'm married and doesn't have a kid. Uh I'm trying to put myself in the mind of trying to put myself in the mind of trying to put myself in the mind of someone who's on the tail end of it, someone who's on the tail end of it, someone who's on the tail end of it, who's trying to do a postmortem of the who's trying to do a postmortem of the who's trying to do a postmortem of the imaginary marriage and child. It must be imaginary marriage and child. It must be imaginary marriage and child. It must be so difficult to try and navigate this so difficult to try and navigate this so difficult to try and navigate this rupture of an attachment. The person rupture of an attachment. The person rupture of an attachment. The person that you thought you were going to spend that you thought you were going to spend that you thought you were going to spend the rest of your life with has left you. the rest of your life with has left you. the rest of your life with has left you. And now there's this weird push and pull And now there's this weird push and pull And now there's this weird push and pull dynamic. And what are we going to do dynamic. And what are we going to do dynamic. And what are we going to do about money? And I I need a my emotions about money? And I I need a my emotions about money? And I I need a my emotions bleeding out of me. I mean, think about bleeding out of me. I mean, think about bleeding out of me. I mean, think about how much people struggle just with how much people struggle just with how much people struggle just with normal breakups already. And then normal breakups already. And then normal breakups already. And then divorce is even worse. and what's going divorce is even worse. and what's going divorce is even worse. and what's going to happen with the car and what's going to happen with the car and what's going to happen with the car and what's going to happen with the bank account and to happen with the bank account and to happen with the bank account and what's going to happen with the house what's going to happen with the house what's going to happen with the house and what's going to happen with the kid and what's going to happen with the kid and what's going to happen with the kid and all of this excess emotion is just and all of this excess emotion is just and all of this excess emotion is just pouring out of you and the pouring out of you and the pouring out of you and the baby or adolescent is just the sponge baby or adolescent is just the sponge baby or adolescent is just the sponge that's absorbing a lot of this. It's that's absorbing a lot of this. It's that's absorbing a lot of this. It's it's it's really tough and I I get it. I it's it's really tough and I I get it. I it's it's really tough and I I get it. I had a I'm using my evolutionary had a I'm using my evolutionary had a I'm using my evolutionary psychologist hat here. psychologist hat here. psychologist hat here. Given the fact that it's important for Given the fact that it's important for Given the fact that it's important for there to be uh the the spare when it there to be uh the the spare when it there to be uh the the spare when it comes to parenting, comes to parenting, comes to parenting, obviously if you were to go through a obviously if you were to go through a obviously if you were to go through a divorce preverbal, there's going to be divorce preverbal, there's going to be divorce preverbal, there's going to be stress. But if the wife was to hot swap stress. But if the wife was to hot swap stress. But if the wife was to hot swap to a new male partner sufficiently to a new male partner sufficiently to a new male partner sufficiently quickly, presumably that would actually quickly, presumably that would actually quickly, presumably that would actually mitigate some of these challenges mitigate some of these challenges mitigate some of these challenges because baby's ability to detect that is because baby's ability to detect that is because baby's ability to detect that is dad is actually pretty limited in any dad is actually pretty limited in any dad is actually pretty limited in any case at the start. So, case at the start. So, case at the start. So, not advocating it, not saying that this not advocating it, not saying that this not advocating it, not saying that this is a strategy, but I think it it's an is a strategy, but I think it it's an is a strategy, but I think it it's an interesting thought experiment that what interesting thought experiment that what interesting thought experiment that what you need is a male figure. For instance, you need is a male figure. For instance, you need is a male figure. For instance, could uh could a a mother use her father could uh could a a mother use her father could uh could a a mother use her father get her father to come and live in the get her father to come and live in the get her father to come and live in the house with her and have or a a brother house with her and have or a a brother house with her and have or a a brother or an uncle or something like that or or an uncle or something like that or or an uncle or something like that or best friend's husband or whatever. Can best friend's husband or whatever. Can best friend's husband or whatever. Can you mitigate some of that? you mitigate some of that? you mitigate some of that? >> Yes. And so, and that's very important >> Yes. And so, and that's very important >> Yes. And so, and that's very important to understand with older children. Let's to understand with older children. Let's to understand with older children. Let's say you have a primary school age child, say you have a primary school age child, say you have a primary school age child, uh, you know, an 8-year-old child or uh, you know, an 8-year-old child or uh, you know, an 8-year-old child or even a six-year-old child who is very even a six-year-old child who is very even a six-year-old child who is very attached to the non- primary attachment attached to the non- primary attachment attached to the non- primary attachment figure parent. Having a grandmother in figure parent. Having a grandmother in figure parent. Having a grandmother in the house or an aunt that lives with you the house or an aunt that lives with you the house or an aunt that lives with you or even a babysitter, it's perfectly or even a babysitter, it's perfectly or even a babysitter, it's perfectly fine and reasonable to say there's a fine and reasonable to say there's a fine and reasonable to say there's a female figure in the house. We're female figure in the house. We're female figure in the house. We're talking about when children are talking about when children are talking about when children are developing a deep sense of attachment developing a deep sense of attachment developing a deep sense of attachment security. Remember that attachment security. Remember that attachment security. Remember that attachment security is the foundation for mental security is the foundation for mental security is the foundation for mental health. So this is a period that should health. So this is a period that should health. So this is a period that should not be touchable. It should not be a not be touchable. It should not be a not be touchable. It should not be a movable feast at all. It should be movable feast at all. It should be movable feast at all. It should be respected on such a high level that respected on such a high level that respected on such a high level that judges and mediators and divorce judges and mediators and divorce judges and mediators and divorce attorneys and forensic psychologists and attorneys and forensic psychologists and attorneys and forensic psychologists and co-parenting co-parenting co-parenting uh specialists, they should all be on uh specialists, they should all be on uh specialists, they should all be on the same page. Unfortunately, they're the same page. Unfortunately, they're the same page. Unfortunately, they're not. Most are not well-versed on on not. Most are not well-versed on on not. Most are not well-versed on on attachment security or the importance of attachment security or the importance of attachment security or the importance of it. And again, prioritize the fairness, it. And again, prioritize the fairness, it. And again, prioritize the fairness, the legal fairness of splitting the baby the legal fairness of splitting the baby the legal fairness of splitting the baby in half and parents rights. It's all in half and parents rights. It's all in half and parents rights. It's all about parents. So, with a very young about parents. So, with a very young about parents. So, with a very young baby, the baby's needs must always be baby, the baby's needs must always be baby, the baby's needs must always be prioritized over your own needs. And prioritized over your own needs. And prioritized over your own needs. And that's a harsh toque for a lot of that's a harsh toque for a lot of that's a harsh toque for a lot of parents to hear, but that's the truth. parents to hear, but that's the truth. parents to hear, but that's the truth. They're psychologically suffering. I'm They're psychologically suffering. I'm They're psychologically suffering. I'm already in pain. And you're telling me already in pain. And you're telling me already in pain. And you're telling me that I need to that I need to that I need to >> That's right. >> That's right. >> That's right. >> apply more pain. >> apply more pain. >> apply more pain. >> That's right. When you stub your toe, >> That's right. When you stub your toe, >> That's right. When you stub your toe, whoever is in the room is going to get whoever is in the room is going to get whoever is in the room is going to get screamed at. If I stub my toe and my screamed at. If I stub my toe and my screamed at. If I stub my toe and my husband's in the room, I'll be like husband's in the room, I'll be like husband's in the room, I'll be like dead in the room. Everybody does that, dead in the room. Everybody does that, dead in the room. Everybody does that, right? We all do that because it's human right? We all do that because it's human right? We all do that because it's human nature when we're in pain that we want nature when we're in pain that we want nature when we're in pain that we want to make other people feel our pain. to make other people feel our pain. to make other people feel our pain. >> We lash out. We lash out at the people >> We lash out. We lash out at the people >> We lash out. We lash out at the people that are around us because we want that are around us because we want that are around us because we want support. I mean, think about what support. I mean, think about what support. I mean, think about what >> pain the the the physical verbal >> pain the the the physical verbal >> pain the the the physical verbal >> presentation of somebody being in pain. >> presentation of somebody being in pain. >> presentation of somebody being in pain. The Yelp, what is that? It's a big The Yelp, what is that? It's a big The Yelp, what is that? It's a big alarm. It's a big alarm that's going out alarm. It's a big alarm that's going out alarm. It's a big alarm that's going out to everybody around. I I require help. to everybody around. I I require help. to everybody around. I I require help. And then you curl up into a ball. Your And then you curl up into a ball. Your And then you curl up into a ball. Your shoulders sort of curl over in this kind shoulders sort of curl over in this kind shoulders sort of curl over in this kind of way. You make yourself look small and of way. You make yourself look small and of way. You make yourself look small and fragile and frail like somebody that fragile and frail like somebody that fragile and frail like somebody that could do with some [ __ ] help. It's an could do with some [ __ ] help. It's an could do with some [ __ ] help. It's an infantile yelp. infantile yelp. infantile yelp. >> Correct. >> Correct. >> Correct. >> It's when adults act like infants and >> It's when adults act like infants and >> It's when adults act like infants and when we're in pain, we all regress to an when we're in pain, we all regress to an when we're in pain, we all regress to an infantile state. infantile state. infantile state. >> Some of us do it more consistently than >> Some of us do it more consistently than >> Some of us do it more consistently than others. others. others. >> Yes. But the idea is that around >> Yes. But the idea is that around >> Yes. But the idea is that around children, you better pull yourself children, you better pull yourself children, you better pull yourself together very quickly and realize that together very quickly and realize that together very quickly and realize that you are not an infant. You're the adult you are not an infant. You're the adult you are not an infant. You're the adult in the room and that child is the infant in the room and that child is the infant in the room and that child is the infant and that child needs you to be the adult and that child needs you to be the adult and that child needs you to be the adult in the room. in the room. in the room. >> Okay. Talk to me about what parents can >> Okay. Talk to me about what parents can >> Okay. Talk to me about what parents can do to improve their emotional regulation do to improve their emotional regulation do to improve their emotional regulation during these situations because it feels during these situations because it feels during these situations because it feels like like like you need to do it. And I agree that you need to do it. And I agree that you need to do it. And I agree that you've had the kid, you were in love, you've had the kid, you were in love, you've had the kid, you were in love, right? right? right? >> This is now an 18-year contract to get >> This is now an 18-year contract to get >> This is now an 18-year contract to get or maybe a 23 year contract um to get or maybe a 23 year contract um to get or maybe a 23 year contract um to get this thing out into the real world to this thing out into the real world to this thing out into the real world to create a big enough runway. But it's not create a big enough runway. But it's not create a big enough runway. But it's not just okay, I'll just decide to do it. just okay, I'll just decide to do it. just okay, I'll just decide to do it. The sensation, this overwhelm of The sensation, this overwhelm of The sensation, this overwhelm of emotions and activation and my wounds, emotions and activation and my wounds, emotions and activation and my wounds, I'm just like my mother and he's just I'm just like my mother and he's just I'm just like my mother and he's just like my father and ra how can parents like my father and ra how can parents like my father and ra how can parents who are going through a divorce learn to who are going through a divorce learn to who are going through a divorce learn to regulate themselves better so that they regulate themselves better so that they regulate themselves better so that they can be better co-parents. can be better co-parents. can be better co-parents. >> Right? It's a trauma laboratory is what >> Right? It's a trauma laboratory is what >> Right? It's a trauma laboratory is what I call it. So the idea is that you need I call it. So the idea is that you need I call it. So the idea is that you need a support system and and again I I'm not a support system and and again I I'm not a support system and and again I I'm not someone who advocates for therapy with someone who advocates for therapy with someone who advocates for therapy with everyone, but I am going to say when everyone, but I am going to say when everyone, but I am going to say when you're going through a divorce, you need you're going through a divorce, you need you're going through a divorce, you need to get some help. Uh, you need to get to get some help. Uh, you need to get to get some help. Uh, you need to get you need to get some therapy because you you need to get some therapy because you you need to get some therapy because you need someplace to go with those feelings need someplace to go with those feelings need someplace to go with those feelings where you can deposit them and leave where you can deposit them and leave where you can deposit them and leave them there them there them there once a week, twice a week where you can once a week, twice a week where you can once a week, twice a week where you can go to that person, deposit those go to that person, deposit those go to that person, deposit those feelings, process them, process the feelings, process them, process the feelings, process them, process the conflict, mourn with somebody who's got conflict, mourn with somebody who's got conflict, mourn with somebody who's got your back and who understands. You know, your back and who understands. You know, your back and who understands. You know, sometimes you can also go to your family sometimes you can also go to your family sometimes you can also go to your family and your close friends. They have to be and your close friends. They have to be and your close friends. They have to be supportive. Not all family and friends supportive. Not all family and friends supportive. Not all family and friends are supportive. We would hope that they are supportive. We would hope that they are supportive. We would hope that they would all be, but not all family and would all be, but not all family and would all be, but not all family and friends are supportive. So, and you friends are supportive. So, and you friends are supportive. So, and you know, family and friends come with a know, family and friends come with a know, family and friends come with a particular perspective and often an particular perspective and often an particular perspective and often an agenda, which is why therapy is so agenda, which is why therapy is so agenda, which is why therapy is so different than going to family and different than going to family and different than going to family and friends. So, people will often say, friends. So, people will often say, friends. So, people will often say, well, why do I need to go to therapy if well, why do I need to go to therapy if well, why do I need to go to therapy if I have family and friends? Well, family I have family and friends? Well, family I have family and friends? Well, family and friends have a particular and friends have a particular and friends have a particular perspective and they often want to share perspective and they often want to share perspective and they often want to share it with you. Uh, therapists are not it with you. Uh, therapists are not it with you. Uh, therapists are not meant to share their own personal meant to share their own personal meant to share their own personal perspective with you and if they do, you perspective with you and if they do, you perspective with you and if they do, you shouldn't be with that therapist. A shouldn't be with that therapist. A shouldn't be with that therapist. A therapist is there to help you to therapist is there to help you to therapist is there to help you to process that grief, to help you to process that grief, to help you to process that grief, to help you to process that loss and to get through it process that loss and to get through it process that loss and to get through it and be a safe container for those and be a safe container for those and be a safe container for those feelings. So, you need family and feelings. So, you need family and feelings. So, you need family and friends support as long as they're friends support as long as they're friends support as long as they're supportive. And then you also need supportive. And then you also need supportive. And then you also need therapy. You need someplace to take therapy. You need someplace to take therapy. You need someplace to take those feelings so you don't offload on those feelings so you don't offload on those feelings so you don't offload on your children and you don't start making your children and you don't start making your children and you don't start making terrible decisions that will have terrible decisions that will have terrible decisions that will have long-term consequences on your long-term consequences on your long-term consequences on your children's mental health. because again children's mental health. because again children's mental health. because again that your children's mental health isn't that your children's mental health isn't that your children's mental health isn't some isn't an easy fix later on. some isn't an easy fix later on. some isn't an easy fix later on. >> Okay, going back to >> Okay, going back to >> Okay, going back to your original area of work from a few your original area of work from a few your original area of work from a few years ago. The attachment security that years ago. The attachment security that years ago. The attachment security that kids need in those first three years. kids need in those first three years. kids need in those first three years. What does that look like? We've said What does that look like? We've said What does that look like? We've said what it doesn't look like. Absentee of what it doesn't look like. Absentee of what it doesn't look like. Absentee of the mother, etc., etc. What's the gold the mother, etc., etc. What's the gold the mother, etc., etc. What's the gold standard for attachment security for a standard for attachment security for a standard for attachment security for a child who's naugh to three years old? child who's naugh to three years old? child who's naugh to three years old? So again, So again, So again, in a way, I think what's happened to the in a way, I think what's happened to the in a way, I think what's happened to the world is that we used to be able to look world is that we used to be able to look world is that we used to be able to look at infants and see how fragile they they at infants and see how fragile they they at infants and see how fragile they they are. I think the world has become are. I think the world has become are. I think the world has become desensitized, deconditioned, if you desensitized, deconditioned, if you desensitized, deconditioned, if you will, to the fragility of infants and will, to the fragility of infants and will, to the fragility of infants and toddlers, just how fragile they are. Um, toddlers, just how fragile they are. Um, toddlers, just how fragile they are. Um, they're not at all resilient. They're they're not at all resilient. They're they're not at all resilient. They're not at all self-possessed. they cannot not at all self-possessed. they cannot not at all self-possessed. they cannot deal with great amounts of stress. So I deal with great amounts of stress. So I deal with great amounts of stress. So I feel like the world's become sort of feel like the world's become sort of feel like the world's become sort of desensitized to so many things. desensitized to so many things. desensitized to so many things. >> Um but yeah, so >> Um but yeah, so >> Um but yeah, so attachment security is both an emotional attachment security is both an emotional attachment security is both an emotional and a physical state of being. It is um and a physical state of being. It is um and a physical state of being. It is um when babies are born, they literally when babies are born, they literally when babies are born, they literally need skin-to-skin contact to regulate need skin-to-skin contact to regulate need skin-to-skin contact to regulate their emotions. You're not only their emotions. You're not only their emotions. You're not only regulating emotions, you're also regulating emotions, you're also regulating emotions, you're also regulating biological processes. you're regulating biological processes. you're regulating biological processes. you're regulating their breath and their regulating their breath and their regulating their breath and their heartbeat and but mostly their cortisol. heartbeat and but mostly their cortisol. heartbeat and but mostly their cortisol. You're keeping it very very very low. You're keeping it very very very low. You're keeping it very very very low. There was a researcher um that I There was a researcher um that I There was a researcher um that I interviewed for my book. She's European interviewed for my book. She's European interviewed for my book. She's European and she said you know babies in the and she said you know babies in the and she said you know babies in the Western world cry more than any other Western world cry more than any other Western world cry more than any other babies in the world. She said because in babies in the world. She said because in babies in the world. She said because in other parts of the world they don't need other parts of the world they don't need other parts of the world they don't need to cry because their distress levels are to cry because their distress levels are to cry because their distress levels are kept so low because they're worn on kept so low because they're worn on kept so low because they're worn on their mother's fronts and on their their mother's fronts and on their their mother's fronts and on their mother's backs. They're not separated mother's backs. They're not separated mother's backs. They're not separated from their mothers. But in the Western from their mothers. But in the Western from their mothers. But in the Western world, we have this very perverse idea world, we have this very perverse idea world, we have this very perverse idea that babies are supposed to be that babies are supposed to be that babies are supposed to be independent, that they're born independent, that they're born independent, that they're born independent, that they're born independent, that they're born independent, that they're born self-sufficient, like self-cleaning self-sufficient, like self-cleaning self-sufficient, like self-cleaning ovens or something. ovens or something. ovens or something. >> Where do you think that's come from? It >> Where do you think that's come from? It >> Where do you think that's come from? It comes from a narcissistic a growth of comes from a narcissistic a growth of comes from a narcissistic a growth of narcissism sort of like bacteria. A narcissism sort of like bacteria. A narcissism sort of like bacteria. A growth of narcissism in society that has growth of narcissism in society that has growth of narcissism in society that has put the individual first before put the individual first before put the individual first before um before relationships before um before relationships before um before relationships before connection to others. Um that could be a connection to others. Um that could be a connection to others. Um that could be a whole other podcast interview with you whole other podcast interview with you whole other podcast interview with you to talk about that. But there is a to talk about that. But there is a to talk about that. But there is a growth in individualism, growth in individualism, growth in individualism, selfc centeredness, even selfc centeredness, even selfc centeredness, even self-sufficiency. self-sufficiency. self-sufficiency. >> So is this as much that >> So is this as much that >> So is this as much that newborn baby is now an independent agent newborn baby is now an independent agent newborn baby is now an independent agent or is it I am an independent agent and or is it I am an independent agent and or is it I am an independent agent and that thing is imposing on me? that thing is imposing on me? that thing is imposing on me? >> Both, >> Both, >> Both, >> right? >> right? >> right? >> It's both. >> It's both. >> It's both. >> Okay. Yeah. >> Okay. Yeah. >> Okay. Yeah. >> Where did it start? >> Where did it start? >> Where did it start? Some say the industrial revolution which Some say the industrial revolution which Some say the industrial revolution which separated families and made mothers go separated families and made mothers go separated families and made mothers go out to work instead of being with out to work instead of being with out to work instead of being with babies. Some say it was the first wave babies. Some say it was the first wave babies. Some say it was the first wave of feminism. But actually the first wave of feminism. But actually the first wave of feminism. But actually the first wave of feminism was very promaternal. of feminism was very promaternal. of feminism was very promaternal. >> It was maternal feminism. >> It was maternal feminism. >> It was maternal feminism. >> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. It was >> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. It was >> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. It was >> Cheryl Sanberg. Is it her fault? >> Cheryl Sanberg. Is it her fault? >> Cheryl Sanberg. Is it her fault? >> Uh no, not Cheryl Samberg. It was uh the >> Uh no, not Cheryl Samberg. It was uh the >> Uh no, not Cheryl Samberg. It was uh the Gloria Steinums and the people that came Gloria Steinums and the people that came Gloria Steinums and the people that came later. It was the second wave of later. It was the second wave of later. It was the second wave of feminism that really um promoted the feminism that really um promoted the feminism that really um promoted the idea that um mothering was not valuable idea that um mothering was not valuable idea that um mothering was not valuable work. But actually the first wave of work. But actually the first wave of work. But actually the first wave of feminism was very pro- maternity and the feminism was very pro- maternity and the feminism was very pro- maternity and the me movement. The me movement in the 60s me movement. The me movement in the 60s me movement. The me movement in the 60s was very uh pro-individualism. was very uh pro-individualism. was very uh pro-individualism. >> Not me too. >> Not me too. >> Not me too. >> No. What's the me movement? >> No. What's the me movement? >> No. What's the me movement? >> The me movement was the beginning. It >> The me movement was the beginning. It >> The me movement was the beginning. It was a movement towards individualism. It was a movement towards individualism. It was a movement towards individualism. It was actually called the MI movement. Um was actually called the MI movement. Um was actually called the MI movement. Um and uh but so all of these social and uh but so all of these social and uh but so all of these social movements which were moving away from movements which were moving away from movements which were moving away from the family construct towards sort of the the family construct towards sort of the the family construct towards sort of the communal construct towards uh you know communal construct towards uh you know communal construct towards uh you know David Brooks writes about this other David Brooks writes about this other David Brooks writes about this other people write about it but uh towards a people write about it but uh towards a people write about it but uh towards a more individualistic narcissistic more individualistic narcissistic more individualistic narcissistic self-oriented approach to living um self-oriented approach to living um self-oriented approach to living um which also has meant the dissolution of which also has meant the dissolution of which also has meant the dissolution of the family. I mean you know divorce is the family. I mean you know divorce is the family. I mean you know divorce is we don't talk about divorce. One of the we don't talk about divorce. One of the we don't talk about divorce. One of the reasons I wrote this book is because I reasons I wrote this book is because I reasons I wrote this book is because I was so frustrated. I only write books was so frustrated. I only write books was so frustrated. I only write books when I'm really frustrated about when I'm really frustrated about when I'm really frustrated about something in society and there isn't something in society and there isn't something in society and there isn't anything that I can refer patients to to anything that I can refer patients to to anything that I can refer patients to to really help them understand. I think we really help them understand. I think we really help them understand. I think we don't talk about divorce. 50% of couples don't talk about divorce. 50% of couples don't talk about divorce. 50% of couples divorce. And if you want to know on some divorce. And if you want to know on some divorce. And if you want to know on some basic level what's causing you know basic level what's causing you know basic level what's causing you know what's contributing to the mental health what's contributing to the mental health what's contributing to the mental health crisis one in two couples divorced crisis one in two couples divorced crisis one in two couples divorced leaving their children without leaving their children without leaving their children without a nuclear family or two parents or you a nuclear family or two parents or you a nuclear family or two parents or you know sort of this rift in the family know sort of this rift in the family know sort of this rift in the family it's a trauma and I don't think we want it's a trauma and I don't think we want it's a trauma and I don't think we want to talk about it because I think it's so to talk about it because I think it's so to talk about it because I think it's so sensitive because then people will feel sensitive because then people will feel sensitive because then people will feel guilty and everybody's so sensitive guilty and everybody's so sensitive guilty and everybody's so sensitive about everybody feeling badly about everybody feeling badly about everybody feeling badly >> apart from the kids >> apart from the kids >> apart from the kids >> apart from the kids that's it all The >> apart from the kids that's it all The >> apart from the kids that's it all The adults in the room are so fragile that adults in the room are so fragile that adults in the room are so fragile that we can't talk about having to stay home we can't talk about having to stay home we can't talk about having to stay home if you have a child for a little while. if you have a child for a little while. if you have a child for a little while. Having to give up some career ambitions Having to give up some career ambitions Having to give up some career ambitions in those early years that your children in those early years that your children in those early years that your children need you. You know, we can't talk about need you. You know, we can't talk about need you. You know, we can't talk about uh you know, divorcing in the first uh you know, divorcing in the first uh you know, divorcing in the first three years probably isn't a good idea. three years probably isn't a good idea. three years probably isn't a good idea. We can't talk about these things because We can't talk about these things because We can't talk about these things because it's going to make somebody feel badly. it's going to make somebody feel badly. it's going to make somebody feel badly. I'm like, you know what? And I've said I'm like, you know what? And I've said I'm like, you know what? And I've said this over and over again, a little bit this over and over again, a little bit this over and over again, a little bit of guilt is a healthy thing because it of guilt is a healthy thing because it of guilt is a healthy thing because it means your ego is functioning. means your ego is functioning. means your ego is functioning. >> It's going to guide you in the direction >> It's going to guide you in the direction >> It's going to guide you in the direction that's good for your behavior. that's good for your behavior. that's good for your behavior. >> Your super ego, which dictates what's >> Your super ego, which dictates what's >> Your super ego, which dictates what's right and wrong, is part of your ego. right and wrong, is part of your ego. right and wrong, is part of your ego. And so when you feel badly, it's And so when you feel badly, it's And so when you feel badly, it's generally a signal feeling that tells generally a signal feeling that tells generally a signal feeling that tells you you have a conflict. I have a you you have a conflict. I have a you you have a conflict. I have a conflict internally. Something doesn't conflict internally. Something doesn't conflict internally. Something doesn't feel right. Maybe I should look at it. feel right. Maybe I should look at it. feel right. Maybe I should look at it. But instead, we tell people, But instead, we tell people, But instead, we tell people, >> ah, don't feel badly. everything will >> ah, don't feel badly. everything will >> ah, don't feel badly. everything will be. So, we're basically telling people be. So, we're basically telling people be. So, we're basically telling people to ignore instincts. You said something to ignore instincts. You said something to ignore instincts. You said something about evolutionary instincts. First of about evolutionary instincts. First of about evolutionary instincts. First of all, we're mammals. We have evolutionary all, we're mammals. We have evolutionary all, we're mammals. We have evolutionary instincts. We have nurturing hormones instincts. We have nurturing hormones instincts. We have nurturing hormones that are affect our behavior. And we that are affect our behavior. And we that are affect our behavior. And we have guilt. Guilt is like pain. have guilt. Guilt is like pain. have guilt. Guilt is like pain. What would we do without pain? You know, What would we do without pain? You know, What would we do without pain? You know, there are people that are born without there are people that are born without there are people that are born without pain receptors and if they touch a pain receptors and if they touch a pain receptors and if they touch a stove, they can like have thirdderee stove, they can like have thirdderee stove, they can like have thirdderee burns and not know it. What would we do burns and not know it. What would we do burns and not know it. What would we do without guilt? We need a little bit of without guilt? We need a little bit of without guilt? We need a little bit of guilt. Excessive amounts of guilt could guilt. Excessive amounts of guilt could guilt. Excessive amounts of guilt could be pathological, but a little bit of be pathological, but a little bit of be pathological, but a little bit of guilt, we we don't want anybody to feel guilt, we we don't want anybody to feel guilt, we we don't want anybody to feel badly. Sometimes we have to feel badly badly. Sometimes we have to feel badly badly. Sometimes we have to feel badly if we're going to look at what we're if we're going to look at what we're if we're going to look at what we're doing to ourselves or to others. doing to ourselves or to others. doing to ourselves or to others. >> I had this um realization when I was >> I had this um realization when I was >> I had this um realization when I was looking at a study that came out that looking at a study that came out that looking at a study that came out that was reanalyzing some big game hunting was reanalyzing some big game hunting was reanalyzing some big game hunting data. And you might have seen it. It was data. And you might have seen it. It was data. And you might have seen it. It was uh women did just as much big game uh women did just as much big game uh women did just as much big game hunting as men and sometimes even more. hunting as men and sometimes even more. hunting as men and sometimes even more. And I thought, well, this is surprising. And I thought, well, this is surprising. And I thought, well, this is surprising. like like like big game hunting is pretty big and women big game hunting is pretty big and women big game hunting is pretty big and women don't tend to be quite as big as men on don't tend to be quite as big as men on don't tend to be quite as big as men on average and maybe they've got average and maybe they've got average and maybe they've got >> it's a surprising figure to me too. >> it's a surprising figure to me too. >> it's a surprising figure to me too. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. >> Uh turns out that it was wrong. That's >> Uh turns out that it was wrong. That's >> Uh turns out that it was wrong. That's why it's surprising. Um they reanalyzed why it's surprising. Um they reanalyzed why it's surprising. Um they reanalyzed the data but they' done loads of [ __ ] the data but they' done loads of [ __ ] the data but they' done loads of [ __ ] with p values and categorization and a with p values and categorization and a with p values and categorization and a lot of other stuff. So the revelation lot of other stuff. So the revelation lot of other stuff. So the revelation became became became >> unrevelated I guess again later on. And >> unrevelated I guess again later on. And >> unrevelated I guess again later on. And I was trying to think about why the I was trying to think about why the I was trying to think about why the female I think feministleaning female I think feministleaning female I think feministleaning researchers had decided that they wanted researchers had decided that they wanted researchers had decided that they wanted to do that. What would be the reason for to do that. What would be the reason for to do that. What would be the reason for doing it? And um you know the soft doing it? And um you know the soft doing it? And um you know the soft bigotry of low expectations. bigotry of low expectations. bigotry of low expectations. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. I think there's a soft bigotry of >> Yeah. I think there's a soft bigotry of >> Yeah. I think there's a soft bigotry of male expectations. male expectations. male expectations. >> I think that implicit it's the Mi >> I think that implicit it's the Mi >> I think that implicit it's the Mi movement that's what made me think about movement that's what made me think about movement that's what made me think about it. Implicitly, anything that a man does it. Implicitly, anything that a man does it. Implicitly, anything that a man does is seen as the preferred kind of is seen as the preferred kind of is seen as the preferred kind of behavior, even by women who are trying behavior, even by women who are trying behavior, even by women who are trying to do the we are for women thing. Yeah. to do the we are for women thing. Yeah. to do the we are for women thing. Yeah. And it's such a slippery kind of stupid And it's such a slippery kind of stupid And it's such a slippery kind of stupid way to slip misogyny into your own way to slip misogyny into your own way to slip misogyny into your own worldview as someone that's trying to worldview as someone that's trying to worldview as someone that's trying to combat misogyny because if you're to combat misogyny because if you're to combat misogyny because if you're to say, well, big game hunting, that's say, well, big game hunting, that's say, well, big game hunting, that's important. Women should have done and important. Women should have done and important. Women should have done and maybe they did even more. It's like, but maybe they did even more. It's like, but maybe they did even more. It's like, but implicitly you're dergating how implicitly you're dergating how implicitly you're dergating how important the gathering is. If you're important the gathering is. If you're important the gathering is. If you're saying that the hunting is more saying that the hunting is more saying that the hunting is more important and the rearing and the important and the rearing and the important and the rearing and the nurturing and all of the other things. nurturing and all of the other things. nurturing and all of the other things. So the same to say that uh motherhood is So the same to say that uh motherhood is So the same to say that uh motherhood is just it's not that important you know just it's not that important you know just it's not that important you know working. It is interesting to me that a working. It is interesting to me that a working. It is interesting to me that a lot of the people that hold these sorts lot of the people that hold these sorts lot of the people that hold these sorts of opinions were able to hold two uh of opinions were able to hold two uh of opinions were able to hold two uh that seem to contradict each other. that seem to contradict each other. that seem to contradict each other. First corporations are soulless blood First corporations are soulless blood First corporations are soulless blood sucking monstrosities and capitalism is sucking monstrosities and capitalism is sucking monstrosities and capitalism is a scourge on the earth that's trying to a scourge on the earth that's trying to a scourge on the earth that's trying to keep everybody down. And also your keep everybody down. And also your keep everybody down. And also your career is the single most important career is the single most important career is the single most important thing that you should do and nobody thing that you should do and nobody thing that you should do and nobody should ever stop you from doing least of should ever stop you from doing least of should ever stop you from doing least of all a child. all a child. all a child. >> And also maternity leave is a complete >> And also maternity leave is a complete >> And also maternity leave is a complete [ __ ] crime against humanity and [ __ ] crime against humanity and [ __ ] crime against humanity and inhuman and we should have more of it. inhuman and we should have more of it. inhuman and we should have more of it. Okay. Well, square this triangle for me, Okay. Well, square this triangle for me, Okay. Well, square this triangle for me, please, because it it just seems like please, because it it just seems like please, because it it just seems like people want I think that you're right. people want I think that you're right. people want I think that you're right. Sovereignty, independence, but it's a Sovereignty, independence, but it's a Sovereignty, independence, but it's a kind of petulent independence. It's like kind of petulent independence. It's like kind of petulent independence. It's like a like stamping of the feet and throwing a like stamping of the feet and throwing a like stamping of the feet and throwing of the hands on the floor. of the hands on the floor. of the hands on the floor. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. It's juvenile. Like I want my >> Yeah. It's juvenile. Like I want my >> Yeah. It's juvenile. Like I want my thing. I want my thing the way I want it thing. I want my thing the way I want it thing. I want my thing the way I want it right now and nobody else can tell me right now and nobody else can tell me right now and nobody else can tell me how. how. how. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Like, but you don't even know what's >> Like, but you don't even know what's >> Like, but you don't even know what's good. This isn't an informed opinion. good. This isn't an informed opinion. good. This isn't an informed opinion. You don't know what's right for you. You You don't know what's right for you. You You don't know what's right for you. You don't know what you're going to regret don't know what you're going to regret don't know what you're going to regret or not regret in future because you or not regret in future because you or not regret in future because you haven't thought about this. You're at haven't thought about this. You're at haven't thought about this. You're at the mercy of memes that have been the mercy of memes that have been the mercy of memes that have been created by people who have got even less created by people who have got even less created by people who have got even less education than you do. That you're now education than you do. That you're now education than you do. That you're now being marionetted by. You're being pared being marionetted by. You're being pared being marionetted by. You're being pared by these ideas that you don't have any by these ideas that you don't have any by these ideas that you don't have any idea where they've come from. And I'm idea where they've come from. And I'm idea where they've come from. And I'm sure that I have tons of them as well. sure that I have tons of them as well. sure that I have tons of them as well. But these are big life decisions. But these are big life decisions. But these are big life decisions. >> And I I just that soft bigotry thing was >> And I I just that soft bigotry thing was >> And I I just that soft bigotry thing was so surprising to me as a group of people so surprising to me as a group of people so surprising to me as a group of people trying to be pro- women, trying to be trying to be pro- women, trying to be trying to be pro- women, trying to be holistically integrated, transcending holistically integrated, transcending holistically integrated, transcending and including all of the things that and including all of the things that and including all of the things that they want women to have been in the past they want women to have been in the past they want women to have been in the past and become in the future. You are by and become in the future. You are by and become in the future. You are by design making anything that women have a design making anything that women have a design making anything that women have a predisposition toward less and anything predisposition toward less and anything predisposition toward less and anything that men true freedom is having sex like that men true freedom is having sex like that men true freedom is having sex like your brother and working like your your brother and working like your your brother and working like your father. father. father. >> So there's a defense called >> So there's a defense called >> So there's a defense called identification with the aggressor. It's identification with the aggressor. It's identification with the aggressor. It's a psychoanalytic term but it basically a psychoanalytic term but it basically a psychoanalytic term but it basically describes what it is. um that when you describes what it is. um that when you describes what it is. um that when you feel abused feel abused feel abused or oppressed, or oppressed, or oppressed, rather than taking a position opposite rather than taking a position opposite rather than taking a position opposite the oppressor, you want to become the the oppressor, you want to become the the oppressor, you want to become the oppressor oppressor oppressor because then you have the power because then you have the power because then you have the power >> redemption. >> redemption. >> redemption. >> You have the power. You have the >> You have the power. You have the >> You have the power. You have the control. You'd rather be the victimizer control. You'd rather be the victimizer control. You'd rather be the victimizer than the victim. And what happened with than the victim. And what happened with than the victim. And what happened with the second wave of feminism um is a lot the second wave of feminism um is a lot the second wave of feminism um is a lot of those feminists had come from very of those feminists had come from very of those feminists had come from very traumatic histories where they were very traumatic histories where they were very traumatic histories where they were very adversarial with men um and treated men adversarial with men um and treated men adversarial with men um and treated men more as adversaries had been abused or more as adversaries had been abused or more as adversaries had been abused or you know there was a lot of uh in in in you know there was a lot of uh in in in you know there was a lot of uh in in in those those that group of women. And those those that group of women. And those those that group of women. And although they did a good thing for although they did a good thing for although they did a good thing for society by freeing women from the society by freeing women from the society by freeing women from the oppression of men, in a way what they oppression of men, in a way what they oppression of men, in a way what they did is they wanted to become men instead did is they wanted to become men instead did is they wanted to become men instead of saying we want to be respected and of saying we want to be respected and of saying we want to be respected and valued for being women and maybe even be valued for being women and maybe even be valued for being women and maybe even be paid for being women. paid for being women. paid for being women. >> So one of the thing one of the things is >> So one of the thing one of the things is >> So one of the thing one of the things is that men had power and control because that men had power and control because that men had power and control because they had money and money became power they had money and money became power they had money and money became power and control. you know, wasn't just and control. you know, wasn't just and control. you know, wasn't just political power, it was financial power. political power, it was financial power. political power, it was financial power. And so, right, so women, rather than And so, right, so women, rather than And so, right, so women, rather than saying, you know what, women's work is saying, you know what, women's work is saying, you know what, women's work is valuable work. valuable work. valuable work. >> Caregiving, caring for children, nursing >> Caregiving, caring for children, nursing >> Caregiving, caring for children, nursing elderly, nursing, teaching, all of these elderly, nursing, teaching, all of these elderly, nursing, teaching, all of these professions, which were quote unquote professions, which were quote unquote professions, which were quote unquote women's work, are incredibly valuable. women's work, are incredibly valuable. women's work, are incredibly valuable. One might say in the age of AI, they may One might say in the age of AI, they may One might say in the age of AI, they may be the only ones left be the only ones left be the only ones left >> um because they're so rightrained and >> um because they're so rightrained and >> um because they're so rightrained and irreplaceable. You know, they'll try to irreplaceable. You know, they'll try to irreplaceable. You know, they'll try to replace them with AI, but they're not replace them with AI, but they're not replace them with AI, but they're not going to be able to, at least not well. going to be able to, at least not well. going to be able to, at least not well. And so these kinds of important loving, And so these kinds of important loving, And so these kinds of important loving, caregiving, relationship work, it was caregiving, relationship work, it was caregiving, relationship work, it was diminished and demeaned in favor of diminished and demeaned in favor of diminished and demeaned in favor of men's work. Now, um that is men's work. Now, um that is men's work. Now, um that is identification with the aggressor. that identification with the aggressor. that identification with the aggressor. that is becoming your oppressor and the is becoming your oppressor and the is becoming your oppressor and the aggressor instead of saying wait a aggressor instead of saying wait a aggressor instead of saying wait a second we are valuable and what we do is second we are valuable and what we do is second we are valuable and what we do is valuable and we want to be recognized valuable and we want to be recognized valuable and we want to be recognized for what we do and we want to be paid for what we do and we want to be paid for what we do and we want to be paid for what we do. So I just I came back for what we do. So I just I came back for what we do. So I just I came back from Australia where they're proposing from Australia where they're proposing from Australia where they're proposing not only 18 months of paid leave but not only 18 months of paid leave but not only 18 months of paid leave but family stipens instead of daycare. I family stipens instead of daycare. I family stipens instead of daycare. I fight against daycare. I go around the fight against daycare. I go around the fight against daycare. I go around the world and speak out against universal world and speak out against universal world and speak out against universal institutional institutional institutional warehouses of children and what I call warehouses of children and what I call warehouses of children and what I call day orphanages, which is what daycare day orphanages, which is what daycare day orphanages, which is what daycare is, and how terrible it is for is, and how terrible it is for is, and how terrible it is for children's nervous system and how it's children's nervous system and how it's children's nervous system and how it's contributing to the mental health contributing to the mental health contributing to the mental health crisis. But they're also proposing now crisis. But they're also proposing now crisis. But they're also proposing now against the Labor government, the against the Labor government, the against the Labor government, the Conservative government is proposing um Conservative government is proposing um Conservative government is proposing um uh uh income splitting, which means uh uh income splitting, which means uh uh income splitting, which means that, you know, if your husband is the that, you know, if your husband is the that, you know, if your husband is the main money earner, you know, because one main money earner, you know, because one main money earner, you know, because one thing for women is they weren't getting thing for women is they weren't getting thing for women is they weren't getting social security. If you were if you're social security. If you were if you're social security. If you were if you're caregiving and taking care of children, caregiving and taking care of children, caregiving and taking care of children, you're also not getting a pension, you're also not getting a pension, you're also not getting a pension, right? For the most part, your husband right? For the most part, your husband right? For the most part, your husband is getting the pension and you're not is getting the pension and you're not is getting the pension and you're not getting the pension. You're not being getting the pension. You're not being getting the pension. You're not being paid, he's being paid. So the idea of paid, he's being paid. So the idea of paid, he's being paid. So the idea of income splitting where a wife is income splitting where a wife is income splitting where a wife is considered half of what the husband considered half of what the husband considered half of what the husband earns is on the wife so she's also earns is on the wife so she's also earns is on the wife so she's also getting a pension. But the concept is getting a pension. But the concept is getting a pension. But the concept is that rather than women say pay us for that rather than women say pay us for that rather than women say pay us for our work give us some power and some our work give us some power and some our work give us some power and some legitimacy and some admiration for our legitimacy and some admiration for our legitimacy and some admiration for our work they said no I'm going to be I want work they said no I'm going to be I want work they said no I'm going to be I want to compete with men and be better than to compete with men and be better than to compete with men and be better than men men men >> and that's what happened to the feminist >> and that's what happened to the feminist >> and that's what happened to the feminist movement and that's when children got movement and that's when children got movement and that's when children got left behind. left behind. left behind. Talk to me about daycare. What's the Talk to me about daycare. What's the Talk to me about daycare. What's the problem with daycare? problem with daycare? problem with daycare? >> Well, daycare, as I said, um it's >> Well, daycare, as I said, um it's >> Well, daycare, as I said, um it's basically separating babies from their basically separating babies from their basically separating babies from their primary attachment figures, putting them primary attachment figures, putting them primary attachment figures, putting them in institutional settings with ratios of in institutional settings with ratios of in institutional settings with ratios of no less than 5:1, usually 8:1 caregiver no less than 5:1, usually 8:1 caregiver no less than 5:1, usually 8:1 caregiver to child ratio. And you're basically to child ratio. And you're basically to child ratio. And you're basically sending that child's cortisol levels. sending that child's cortisol levels. sending that child's cortisol levels. The research shows that salivary The research shows that salivary The research shows that salivary cortisol levels go through the roof. So cortisol levels go through the roof. So cortisol levels go through the roof. So babies go into high stress states. Now babies go into high stress states. Now babies go into high stress states. Now they're separated from their mother's they're separated from their mother's they're separated from their mother's bodies and they're separated from the bodies and they're separated from the bodies and they're separated from the person in the world who's meant to make person in the world who's meant to make person in the world who's meant to make them feel safe. They're in a loud them feel safe. They're in a loud them feel safe. They're in a loud overstimulating setting with babies overstimulating setting with babies overstimulating setting with babies crying and caregivers, transient crying and caregivers, transient crying and caregivers, transient caregivers alternating and some being caregivers alternating and some being caregivers alternating and some being absent and it's a new caregiver because absent and it's a new caregiver because absent and it's a new caregiver because they're always out sick and they're always out sick and they're always out sick and >> it's it's the worst the worst possible >> it's it's the worst the worst possible >> it's it's the worst the worst possible care caregiving situation for a child. care caregiving situation for a child. care caregiving situation for a child. There are so many better. If you have to There are so many better. If you have to There are so many better. If you have to work, the best is a mother or father, work, the best is a mother or father, work, the best is a mother or father, whoever is the primary attachment whoever is the primary attachment whoever is the primary attachment figure. The next best is kinship bonds, figure. The next best is kinship bonds, figure. The next best is kinship bonds, which are family or extended family which are family or extended family which are family or extended family members who have a more similar members who have a more similar members who have a more similar investment to children uh emotionally. investment to children uh emotionally. investment to children uh emotionally. The next best would be a single The next best would be a single The next best would be a single surrogate caregiver or a nanny or a surrogate caregiver or a nanny or a surrogate caregiver or a nanny or a babysitter who's going to be an babysitter who's going to be an babysitter who's going to be an alternative attachment figure to that alternative attachment figure to that alternative attachment figure to that baby, which will provide them with some baby, which will provide them with some baby, which will provide them with some sense of security and care for them in sense of security and care for them in sense of security and care for them in your home. And if you can't afford that, your home. And if you can't afford that, your home. And if you can't afford that, then share a caregiver. That's a big then share a caregiver. That's a big then share a caregiver. That's a big thing in California where they uh will thing in California where they uh will thing in California where they uh will split the cost of one caregiver. So that split the cost of one caregiver. So that split the cost of one caregiver. So that caregiver is now taking care of two or caregiver is now taking care of two or caregiver is now taking care of two or three children. You have now reduced the three children. You have now reduced the three children. You have now reduced the ratio and that child is being cared for ratio and that child is being cared for ratio and that child is being cared for in your home. And you have agency over in your home. And you have agency over in your home. And you have agency over that. that. that. >> Basically private daycare where you >> Basically private daycare where you >> Basically private daycare where you don't have to travel don't have to travel don't have to travel >> and it's in your home. And so you have >> and it's in your home. And so you have >> and it's in your home. And so you have agency over who that person is, how they agency over who that person is, how they agency over who that person is, how they care for your child. You can put cameras care for your child. You can put cameras care for your child. You can put cameras in your house if you want. You can see in your house if you want. You can see in your house if you want. You can see what they do. You can observe them. you what they do. You can observe them. you what they do. You can observe them. you know who's taking taking care of your know who's taking taking care of your know who's taking taking care of your children children children >> and your child isn't going into this >> and your child isn't going into this >> and your child isn't going into this like high stress state of screaming, like high stress state of screaming, like high stress state of screaming, crying. If you go into a daycare center, crying. If you go into a daycare center, crying. If you go into a daycare center, you would cry. I always say to parents, you would cry. I always say to parents, you would cry. I always say to parents, you drop them off and you have this you drop them off and you have this you drop them off and you have this skitsoid response where you shut down skitsoid response where you shut down skitsoid response where you shut down what you're feeling and go to work. But what you're feeling and go to work. But what you're feeling and go to work. But if you knew what happened in those if you knew what happened in those if you knew what happened in those daycare centers, if you heard those daycare centers, if you heard those daycare centers, if you heard those babies cry, babies cry, babies cry, >> what does happen? What happens in >> what does happen? What happens in >> what does happen? What happens in daycarees? daycarees? daycarees? >> Crying babies. Because the bottom line >> Crying babies. Because the bottom line >> Crying babies. Because the bottom line is if I handed you eight babies is if I handed you eight babies is if I handed you eight babies and you're one person, could you soothe and you're one person, could you soothe and you're one person, could you soothe all those babies in distress at the same all those babies in distress at the same all those babies in distress at the same time? time? time? >> I'm not convinced I could soo one of >> I'm not convinced I could soo one of >> I'm not convinced I could soo one of them. them. them. >> Okay. Now I'm giving you eight. And so >> Okay. Now I'm giving you eight. And so >> Okay. Now I'm giving you eight. And so what's happening is those one person what's happening is those one person what's happening is those one person cannot you know parents who are have cannot you know parents who are have cannot you know parents who are have attachment disorders of their own think attachment disorders of their own think attachment disorders of their own think oh it's better for somebody else to care oh it's better for somebody else to care oh it's better for somebody else to care for my child cuz I'm not a good I can't for my child cuz I'm not a good I can't for my child cuz I'm not a good I can't handle it without thinking who's this handle it without thinking who's this handle it without thinking who's this person that I've just handed my baby to person that I've just handed my baby to person that I've just handed my baby to and how are they going to care for five and how are they going to care for five and how are they going to care for five to eight children and soo them when to eight children and soo them when to eight children and soo them when they're in distress and so parents just they're in distress and so parents just they're in distress and so parents just it's like they shut down a part of their it's like they shut down a part of their it's like they shut down a part of their it's like they They shut down their it's like they They shut down their it's like they They shut down their empathy. It's like they have a skitsoid empathy. It's like they have a skitsoid empathy. It's like they have a skitsoid response with empathy where they cannot response with empathy where they cannot response with empathy where they cannot see their baby's vulnerability or their see their baby's vulnerability or their see their baby's vulnerability or their or their baby's suffering. What are your or their baby's suffering. What are your or their baby's suffering. What are your favorite studies that show how we favorite studies that show how we favorite studies that show how we shouldn't ignore early attachment in shouldn't ignore early attachment in shouldn't ignore early attachment in childhood? >> John Bulby is the father of attachment. >> John Bulby is the father of attachment. You need go no further than John Bulby, You need go no further than John Bulby, You need go no further than John Bulby, but you could look at all of the um what but you could look at all of the um what but you could look at all of the um what they call the stranger situation they call the stranger situation they call the stranger situation studies, which they've been doing since studies, which they've been doing since studies, which they've been doing since the 1960s. They have repeated this the 1960s. They have repeated this the 1960s. They have repeated this experiment over and over. In fact, I was experiment over and over. In fact, I was experiment over and over. In fact, I was um there's a researcher named Beatus BBE um there's a researcher named Beatus BBE um there's a researcher named Beatus BBE in New York. She's very famous and I was in New York. She's very famous and I was in New York. She's very famous and I was in some of her videos because when I was in some of her videos because when I was in some of her videos because when I was a young social work student, I did some a young social work student, I did some a young social work student, I did some volunteering um in a stranger situation volunteering um in a stranger situation volunteering um in a stranger situation study. Again, this this this situation study. Again, this this this situation study. Again, this this this situation is repeated over and over and over is repeated over and over and over is repeated over and over and over again. It's it's the most well-known again. It's it's the most well-known again. It's it's the most well-known attachment security um study. And it it attachment security um study. And it it attachment security um study. And it it sort of goes something like this. The sort of goes something like this. The sort of goes something like this. The mother and baby are playing in a room. A mother and baby are playing in a room. A mother and baby are playing in a room. A stranger walks in. Um, the mother walks stranger walks in. Um, the mother walks stranger walks in. Um, the mother walks out of the room. The mother walks back out of the room. The mother walks back out of the room. The mother walks back in and there's a reunion. It's sort of in and there's a reunion. It's sort of in and there's a reunion. It's sort of they they look at the baby's reactions. they they look at the baby's reactions. they they look at the baby's reactions. They look at the interaction between the They look at the interaction between the They look at the interaction between the mother and the baby, the interaction mother and the baby, the interaction mother and the baby, the interaction between the stranger and the baby. They between the stranger and the baby. They between the stranger and the baby. They look at the the reunion between the look at the the reunion between the look at the the reunion between the mother and the baby. So, this is mother and the baby. So, this is mother and the baby. So, this is something that's done over and over. We something that's done over and over. We something that's done over and over. We have so much longitudinal research on have so much longitudinal research on have so much longitudinal research on attachment security going back to the attachment security going back to the attachment security going back to the 60s. So much research to show that 60s. So much research to show that 60s. So much research to show that attachment security, if you're not attachment security, if you're not attachment security, if you're not securely attached at 12 months, then 72% securely attached at 12 months, then 72% securely attached at 12 months, then 72% of those babies 20 years later will not of those babies 20 years later will not of those babies 20 years later will not be securely attached. And that insecure be securely attached. And that insecure be securely attached. And that insecure attachment is tied to depression, attachment is tied to depression, attachment is tied to depression, anxiety, borderline personality anxiety, borderline personality anxiety, borderline personality disorder. Um, so we have the research, disorder. Um, so we have the research, disorder. Um, so we have the research, the research has been there for many the research has been there for many the research has been there for many years. We just now we have neur now we years. We just now we have neur now we years. We just now we have neur now we have the neuroscience research and the have the neuroscience research and the have the neuroscience research and the epigenetics research to support the epigenetics research to support the epigenetics research to support the attachment research. attachment research. attachment research. >> Square this circle with the heritability >> Square this circle with the heritability >> Square this circle with the heritability of attachment style for me. of attachment style for me. of attachment style for me. >> The heritability of attachment style. >> The heritability of attachment style. >> The heritability of attachment style. No. So it's generational expression. So No. So it's generational expression. So No. So it's generational expression. So I I sort of bulk at the idea of inher I I sort of bulk at the idea of inher I I sort of bulk at the idea of inher inheritance. It's inheritance of inheritance. It's inheritance of inheritance. It's inheritance of acquired characteristics. So you don't acquired characteristics. So you don't acquired characteristics. So you don't inherit it genetically. You inherit inherit it genetically. You inherit inherit it genetically. You inherit sensitivity genetically, sensitivity genetically, sensitivity genetically, >> but you inherit through acquired >> but you inherit through acquired >> but you inherit through acquired characteristics, meaning your characteristics, meaning your characteristics, meaning your environment. environment. environment. >> A mother who is insecurely anxiously >> A mother who is insecurely anxiously >> A mother who is insecurely anxiously attached attached attached >> will more likely produce an anxiously >> will more likely produce an anxiously >> will more likely produce an anxiously attached baby. A mother who is attached baby. A mother who is attached baby. A mother who is avoidantly attached will more likely avoidantly attached will more likely avoidantly attached will more likely produce an avoidantly attached baby. A produce an avoidantly attached baby. A produce an avoidantly attached baby. A mother who has a disorganized attachment mother who has a disorganized attachment mother who has a disorganized attachment and is a borderline personality disorder and is a borderline personality disorder and is a borderline personality disorder kind of patient will more likely produce kind of patient will more likely produce kind of patient will more likely produce a child who has a disorganized a child who has a disorganized a child who has a disorganized attachment and probably a borderline attachment and probably a borderline attachment and probably a borderline personality disorder. personality disorder. personality disorder. >> So um we call it generational expression >> So um we call it generational expression >> So um we call it generational expression of mental illness. So inqu um of mental illness. So inqu um of mental illness. So inqu um inheritance of acquired characteristics. I guess it's interesting to think about I guess it's interesting to think about predisposition predisposition predisposition versus predetermination with stuff like versus predetermination with stuff like versus predetermination with stuff like this. The raw materials are there. I've this. The raw materials are there. I've this. The raw materials are there. I've always thought this about I'm a big always thought this about I'm a big always thought this about I'm a big Plowman fan. I think he's one of the Plowman fan. I think he's one of the Plowman fan. I think he's one of the best researchers of all time. He's what best researchers of all time. He's what best researchers of all time. He's what the fifth most cited psychologist in the the fifth most cited psychologist in the the fifth most cited psychologist in the 20th century. 20th century. 20th century. >> Uh this the guy that the kind of the >> Uh this the guy that the kind of the >> Uh this the guy that the kind of the grandfather of behavioral genetics I grandfather of behavioral genetics I grandfather of behavioral genetics I think he rules. And um when I think think he rules. And um when I think think he rules. And um when I think about the first few years of a child's about the first few years of a child's about the first few years of a child's life, it's such a weird confluence of life, it's such a weird confluence of life, it's such a weird confluence of what were the raw materials that you what were the raw materials that you what were the raw materials that you were made of. were made of. were made of. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> How are they expressed in the people who >> How are they expressed in the people who >> How are they expressed in the people who made who who gave you them? They are made who who gave you them? They are made who who gave you them? They are expressed in behavior. Yeah. expressed in behavior. Yeah. expressed in behavior. Yeah. >> And that behavior happens to be the >> And that behavior happens to be the >> And that behavior happens to be the environment. It would be like environment. It would be like environment. It would be like it would be like a cow that cuts its own it would be like a cow that cuts its own it would be like a cow that cuts its own leg off to then cook it in a stew. You leg off to then cook it in a stew. You leg off to then cook it in a stew. You know, like the very thing that it's made know, like the very thing that it's made know, like the very thing that it's made of is the thing that's that's creating of is the thing that's that's creating of is the thing that's that's creating it. And um that's a [ __ ] horrific it. And um that's a [ __ ] horrific it. And um that's a [ __ ] horrific analogy, but analogy, but analogy, but it seems so unfair. This is what it I I it seems so unfair. This is what it I I it seems so unfair. This is what it I I sort of came back to when I started to sort of came back to when I started to sort of came back to when I started to think deeply about behavioral genetics think deeply about behavioral genetics think deeply about behavioral genetics and attachment style that you have and attachment style that you have and attachment style that you have presumably an anxiously attached mother presumably an anxiously attached mother presumably an anxiously attached mother has the raw materials to be anxiously has the raw materials to be anxiously has the raw materials to be anxiously attached and then is presenting in an attached and then is presenting in an attached and then is presenting in an anxiously attached way. anxiously attached way. anxiously attached way. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Which means that the child that has the >> Which means that the child that has the >> Which means that the child that has the raw materials to be anxiously attached raw materials to be anxiously attached raw materials to be anxiously attached gets that reinforced. And yes, all of gets that reinforced. And yes, all of gets that reinforced. And yes, all of this happens preverbal. All of this this happens preverbal. All of this this happens preverbal. All of this happens before you can even remember. I happens before you can even remember. I happens before you can even remember. I can't remember anything basically before can't remember anything basically before can't remember anything basically before age like nine or 10. Really spotty age like nine or 10. Really spotty age like nine or 10. Really spotty memories. memories. memories. >> So you know the you know the song from >> So you know the you know the song from >> So you know the you know the song from Hamilton, you want to be in the room Hamilton, you want to be in the room Hamilton, you want to be in the room where it happens. The room where it where it happens. The room where it where it happens. The room where it happens is 0 to three. happens is 0 to three. happens is 0 to three. >> That's what it means to be in the room >> That's what it means to be in the room >> That's what it means to be in the room where it happens. And no one wants to where it happens. And no one wants to where it happens. And no one wants to talk about the room where it happens talk about the room where it happens talk about the room where it happens because they can't remember it because they can't remember it because they can't remember it consciously because it's preconcious consciously because it's preconcious consciously because it's preconcious memory. But it's what shapes your memory. But it's what shapes your memory. But it's what shapes your personality. Uh personality. Uh personality. Uh >> so nature versus nurture is always an >> so nature versus nurture is always an >> so nature versus nurture is always an interesting question because we do we interesting question because we do we interesting question because we do we are born with a constitution meaning are born with a constitution meaning are born with a constitution meaning constitution is the amount of aggression constitution is the amount of aggression constitution is the amount of aggression we're born with. Babies are all born we're born with. Babies are all born we're born with. Babies are all born aggressive. You guys aggressive. You guys aggressive. You guys >> are the most aggressive people on the >> are the most aggressive people on the >> are the most aggressive people on the planet are three-year-olds. planet are three-year-olds. planet are three-year-olds. >> So well no actually babies are born >> So well no actually babies are born >> So well no actually babies are born disregulated and babies are all born disregulated and babies are all born disregulated and babies are all born aggressive. So you know people get it aggressive. So you know people get it aggressive. So you know people get it wrong. People people think that babies wrong. People people think that babies wrong. People people think that babies are born regulated and we disregulate are born regulated and we disregulate are born regulated and we disregulate them by neglecting them or abusing them. them by neglecting them or abusing them. them by neglecting them or abusing them. No, actually babies are born No, actually babies are born No, actually babies are born disregulated disregulated disregulated uh with highs and lows. I mean if you uh with highs and lows. I mean if you uh with highs and lows. I mean if you ever just observe a baby um infants that ever just observe a baby um infants that ever just observe a baby um infants that are newborn infants, they will go from are newborn infants, they will go from are newborn infants, they will go from being happy 1 second and 0 to 60 in 3 being happy 1 second and 0 to 60 in 3 being happy 1 second and 0 to 60 in 3 seconds. boy, they'll be screaming if seconds. boy, they'll be screaming if seconds. boy, they'll be screaming if >> the most bipolar little blobs. >> the most bipolar little blobs. >> the most bipolar little blobs. >> Bipolar little blobs. Okay, but they're >> Bipolar little blobs. Okay, but they're >> Bipolar little blobs. Okay, but they're not blobs. They're incredibly not blobs. They're incredibly not blobs. They're incredibly uh sort of present, but they have no uh sort of present, but they have no uh sort of present, but they have no emotional regulation. And it is by that emotional regulation. And it is by that emotional regulation. And it is by that skin-to-skin contact, that calm, skin-to-skin contact, that calm, skin-to-skin contact, that calm, soothing tone of voice of the primary soothing tone of voice of the primary soothing tone of voice of the primary attachment figure. Every time the baby's attachment figure. Every time the baby's attachment figure. Every time the baby's in distress, the mother soothes the in distress, the mother soothes the in distress, the mother soothes the baby. The way I would describe it is baby. The way I would describe it is baby. The way I would describe it is babies are born like sailing a sailboat babies are born like sailing a sailboat babies are born like sailing a sailboat in the Pacific in a storm. This is how in the Pacific in a storm. This is how in the Pacific in a storm. This is how babies are born. babies are born. babies are born. >> By having a mother physically and >> By having a mother physically and >> By having a mother physically and emotionally present in those first three emotionally present in those first three emotionally present in those first three years who is calm and present and loving years who is calm and present and loving years who is calm and present and loving and soothing, and soothing, and soothing, you get the baby not you don't want to you get the baby not you don't want to you get the baby not you don't want to get the baby flatlining. That's not what get the baby flatlining. That's not what get the baby flatlining. That's not what we call homeostasis. We call homeostasis we call homeostasis. We call homeostasis we call homeostasis. We call homeostasis more like sailing in the Caribbean on a more like sailing in the Caribbean on a more like sailing in the Caribbean on a sunny day. sunny day. sunny day. There's waves, but you know, you can There's waves, but you know, you can There's waves, but you know, you can manage them and then, you know, they're manage them and then, you know, they're manage them and then, you know, they're kind of manageable and pleasant, and kind of manageable and pleasant, and kind of manageable and pleasant, and that's where you want to get the baby. that's where you want to get the baby. that's where you want to get the baby. But you cannot do that if you throw your But you cannot do that if you throw your But you cannot do that if you throw your baby into a daycare setting. If you baby into a daycare setting. If you baby into a daycare setting. If you disappear 10 hours a day and go to work, disappear 10 hours a day and go to work, disappear 10 hours a day and go to work, and the one person that's meant to help and the one person that's meant to help and the one person that's meant to help them to learn these things, they're not them to learn these things, they're not them to learn these things, they're not learning. So we have children who are learning. So we have children who are learning. So we have children who are going into primary school years and then going into primary school years and then going into primary school years and then adolescence um completely disregulated adolescence um completely disregulated adolescence um completely disregulated which is why they're all breaking down which is why they're all breaking down which is why they're all breaking down in in this mental health crisis. It's in in this mental health crisis. It's in in this mental health crisis. It's not a mystery but you have to go back to not a mystery but you have to go back to not a mystery but you have to go back to the room where it happens. But the room where it happens. But the room where it happens. But aggression aggression aggression aggression is one of the things that aggression is one of the things that aggression is one of the things that you're born with constitutionally. You you're born with constitutionally. You you're born with constitutionally. You know in the old days you used to go into know in the old days you used to go into know in the old days you used to go into a hospital into a maternity ward. Thank a hospital into a maternity ward. Thank a hospital into a maternity ward. Thank goodness John Bulby got rid of the goodness John Bulby got rid of the goodness John Bulby got rid of the maternity wards. You know, John Bulby maternity wards. You know, John Bulby maternity wards. You know, John Bulby went into the hospitals in the UK and he went into the hospitals in the UK and he went into the hospitals in the UK and he said, "No, no, no. Those babies, they said, "No, no, no. Those babies, they said, "No, no, no. Those babies, they need to lie in with their mothers. They need to lie in with their mothers. They need to lie in with their mothers. They need to be they could they've come out need to be they could they've come out need to be they could they've come out of the mother." of the mother." of the mother." >> It was a maternity ward. >> It was a maternity ward. >> It was a maternity ward. >> It was a room where they took the babies >> It was a room where they took the babies >> It was a room where they took the babies from the mothers so the mothers could from the mothers so the mothers could from the mothers so the mothers could rest and they took them. So now nurses rest and they took them. So now nurses rest and they took them. So now nurses who they didn't recognize this were, you who they didn't recognize this were, you who they didn't recognize this were, you know, were just mammals, didn't know, were just mammals, didn't know, were just mammals, didn't recognize the smell or the voice, recognize the smell or the voice, recognize the smell or the voice, couldn't find their mother's eyes couldn't find their mother's eyes couldn't find their mother's eyes because they saw their mother's eyes because they saw their mother's eyes because they saw their mother's eyes when they were born because they would when they were born because they would when they were born because they would show you the baby. Here's your baby now. show you the baby. Here's your baby now. show you the baby. Here's your baby now. Bye. And they would take the baby away. Bye. And they would take the baby away. Bye. And they would take the baby away. Put it in this maternity room with other Put it in this maternity room with other Put it in this maternity room with other screaming, crying babies. And the mother screaming, crying babies. And the mother screaming, crying babies. And the mother is sleeping. And they're telling the is sleeping. And they're telling the is sleeping. And they're telling the mother, "This is normal." mother, "This is normal." mother, "This is normal." >> I mean, like cuckoo, right? So he said, >> I mean, like cuckoo, right? So he said, >> I mean, like cuckoo, right? So he said, "Wait a second." You know, he studied "Wait a second." You know, he studied "Wait a second." You know, he studied cultures all over the world. He wrote a cultures all over the world. He wrote a cultures all over the world. He wrote a big book like this called attachment, big book like this called attachment, big book like this called attachment, which I recommend everyone who has a which I recommend everyone who has a which I recommend everyone who has a baby to read. And another book like this baby to read. And another book like this baby to read. And another book like this is big like this called separation where is big like this called separation where is big like this called separation where he studied cultures all over the world. he studied cultures all over the world. he studied cultures all over the world. Universal, right? The idea that Universal, right? The idea that Universal, right? The idea that attachment security is critical to a attachment security is critical to a attachment security is critical to a baby's emotional regulation and baby's emotional regulation and baby's emotional regulation and conditioning. Okay. So he got them to conditioning. Okay. So he got them to conditioning. Okay. So he got them to get pretty much get rid of they still get pretty much get rid of they still get pretty much get rid of they still have them for like ill babies. But even have them for like ill babies. But even have them for like ill babies. But even the ill babies are supposed to lie in the ill babies are supposed to lie in the ill babies are supposed to lie in with the mothers, right? But if you went with the mothers, right? But if you went with the mothers, right? But if you went into one of those maternity wards before into one of those maternity wards before into one of those maternity wards before he did that, what you'd find is that he did that, what you'd find is that he did that, what you'd find is that constitutionally you had 20 babies in constitutionally you had 20 babies in constitutionally you had 20 babies in there, constitutionally babies are not there, constitutionally babies are not there, constitutionally babies are not the same. Some babies would stare at the the same. Some babies would stare at the the same. Some babies would stare at the light and try to reach their hand and light and try to reach their hand and light and try to reach their hand and try to sort of just they were quieter. try to sort of just they were quieter. try to sort of just they were quieter. And then there were other babies that And then there were other babies that And then there were other babies that were just like were just like were just like >> pick me the [ __ ] up, you know? >> pick me the [ __ ] up, you know? >> pick me the [ __ ] up, you know? >> And and so and right that's me that >> And and so and right that's me that >> And and so and right that's me that baby. And so babies were born with baby. And so babies were born with baby. And so babies were born with different varied amounts of aggression. different varied amounts of aggression. different varied amounts of aggression. Okay. I'm allowed to curse on. Right. Okay. I'm allowed to curse on. Right. Okay. I'm allowed to curse on. Right. It's a podcast. Correct. It's a podcast. Correct. It's a podcast. Correct. >> So they're born with varying amounts of >> So they're born with varying amounts of >> So they're born with varying amounts of aggression. And so that is constitution. aggression. And so that is constitution. aggression. And so that is constitution. They're also born with varying amounts They're also born with varying amounts They're also born with varying amounts of energy. That is constitution. You of energy. That is constitution. You of energy. That is constitution. You know, I have three kids. Two of them know, I have three kids. Two of them know, I have three kids. Two of them have my husband's calm energy. My middle have my husband's calm energy. My middle have my husband's calm energy. My middle son has my energy. He's just got my son has my energy. He's just got my son has my energy. He's just got my energy. Aggression energy. There are energy. Aggression energy. There are energy. Aggression energy. There are certain things that we call just certain things that we call just certain things that we call just internal to us, constitutional to us. internal to us, constitutional to us. internal to us, constitutional to us. >> Um, but pretty much everything else is >> Um, but pretty much everything else is >> Um, but pretty much everything else is not constitutional. It's not constitutional. It's not constitutional. It's >> when you say constitutional, what do you >> when you say constitutional, what do you >> when you say constitutional, what do you mean? mean? mean? >> Meaning, um, it's it's there's a genetic >> Meaning, um, it's it's there's a genetic >> Meaning, um, it's it's there's a genetic marker for it or it's passed down. So, marker for it or it's passed down. So, marker for it or it's passed down. So, in other words, a very high energy in other words, a very high energy in other words, a very high energy mother or father might produce a very mother or father might produce a very mother or father might produce a very high energy baby. M high energy baby. M high energy baby. M >> uh a very quiet kind of calm more >> uh a very quiet kind of calm more >> uh a very quiet kind of calm more passive feeling parent can produce a passive feeling parent can produce a passive feeling parent can produce a less aggressive child. less aggressive child. less aggressive child. >> But it's stuff like uh extraversion, >> But it's stuff like uh extraversion, >> But it's stuff like uh extraversion, openness to experience, agreeableness, openness to experience, agreeableness, openness to experience, agreeableness, all of these things. all of these things. all of these things. >> That's person that is that is >> That's person that is that is >> That's person that is that is constitution. You will see that in in constitution. You will see that in in constitution. You will see that in in children very young. You'll see a child children very young. You'll see a child children very young. You'll see a child who and that's when parents go, "Oh, who and that's when parents go, "Oh, who and that's when parents go, "Oh, >> she was I was just like her. >> she was I was just like her. >> she was I was just like her. >> She's like me." >> She's like me." >> She's like me." >> Right? And so there is constitution. >> Right? And so there is constitution. >> Right? And so there is constitution. It's a small part of our personality It's a small part of our personality It's a small part of our personality because it's not the constitution, it's because it's not the constitution, it's because it's not the constitution, it's what we do with it. It's it's it's so it what we do with it. It's it's it's so it what we do with it. It's it's it's so it is important to embrace your child's is important to embrace your child's is important to embrace your child's constitution as individual to them. If constitution as individual to them. If constitution as individual to them. If your child is more reticent, if your your child is more reticent, if your your child is more reticent, if your child is more extroverted, those are child is more extroverted, those are child is more extroverted, those are things that you aren't going to change things that you aren't going to change things that you aren't going to change about your child, but you want to about your child, but you want to about your child, but you want to appreciate and accept about your child. appreciate and accept about your child. appreciate and accept about your child. Um levels of aggression. Some kids are Um levels of aggression. Some kids are Um levels of aggression. Some kids are more, you know, little boys are more more, you know, little boys are more more, you know, little boys are more needing to get their aggression out and needing to get their aggression out and needing to get their aggression out and play physically or do sports or um, you play physically or do sports or um, you play physically or do sports or um, you know, some are more they want to sit in know, some are more they want to sit in know, some are more they want to sit in a corner and read and do art and there's a corner and read and do art and there's a corner and read and do art and there's something constitutional that isn't something constitutional that isn't something constitutional that isn't environmental that but the rest is environmental that but the rest is environmental that but the rest is environmental. environmental. environmental. >> Okay. So, what happens if a primary >> Okay. So, what happens if a primary >> Okay. So, what happens if a primary attachment figure isn't sufficiently attachment figure isn't sufficiently attachment figure isn't sufficiently available during those first few years? available during those first few years? available during those first few years? So, children develop coping mechanisms, So, children develop coping mechanisms, So, children develop coping mechanisms, but they aren't necessarily healthy but they aren't necessarily healthy but they aren't necessarily healthy coping mechanisms. So, they're coping mechanisms. So, they're coping mechanisms. So, they're adaptations they have to make, and adaptations they have to make, and adaptations they have to make, and they're usually pathological, meaning they're usually pathological, meaning they're usually pathological, meaning they form what we call attachment they form what we call attachment they form what we call attachment disorders, which are defenses that help disorders, which are defenses that help disorders, which are defenses that help them to cope with the loss, strategies, them to cope with the loss, strategies, them to cope with the loss, strategies, if you will, um, to cope with the loss. if you will, um, to cope with the loss. if you will, um, to cope with the loss. And the kids who develop a strategy tend And the kids who develop a strategy tend And the kids who develop a strategy tend to survive more than the kids without a to survive more than the kids without a to survive more than the kids without a strategy. So they tend to do a little strategy. So they tend to do a little strategy. So they tend to do a little bit better. Um that doesn't mean there bit better. Um that doesn't mean there bit better. Um that doesn't mean there aren't long-term consequences. So a aren't long-term consequences. So a aren't long-term consequences. So a strategy is an avoidant attachment strategy is an avoidant attachment strategy is an avoidant attachment disorder is a strategy. My mommy's left disorder is a strategy. My mommy's left disorder is a strategy. My mommy's left me. me. me. My daddy's left me in this place with My daddy's left me in this place with My daddy's left me in this place with strangers and no one's coming and I'm strangers and no one's coming and I'm strangers and no one's coming and I'm crying and no one's going to pick me up crying and no one's going to pick me up crying and no one's going to pick me up and I'm just going to have to manage on and I'm just going to have to manage on and I'm just going to have to manage on my own. And so it's something called my own. And so it's something called my own. And so it's something called learned helplessness where they turn learned helplessness where they turn learned helplessness where they turn away from care. away from care. away from care. >> Um and that's most closely correlated >> Um and that's most closely correlated >> Um and that's most closely correlated with um depression and difficulty with um depression and difficulty with um depression and difficulty trusting in in relationships later on. trusting in in relationships later on. trusting in in relationships later on. Uh an anxious attachment disorder. Uh an anxious attachment disorder. Uh an anxious attachment disorder. Another strategy. Another strategy. Another strategy. It's a consistent strategy. If you your It's a consistent strategy. If you your It's a consistent strategy. If you your mommy leaves and when she comes back you mommy leaves and when she comes back you mommy leaves and when she comes back you cling to her like a baby monkey and you cling to her like a baby monkey and you cling to her like a baby monkey and you will not let her go and you cry will not let her go and you cry will not let her go and you cry desperately and you just cling to her desperately and you just cling to her desperately and you just cling to her and the dialogue in the baby's head is and the dialogue in the baby's head is and the dialogue in the baby's head is uh is something like you know my mommy uh is something like you know my mommy uh is something like you know my mommy left me she's going to leave me again left me she's going to leave me again left me she's going to leave me again and it's the anticipation of loss so we and it's the anticipation of loss so we and it's the anticipation of loss so we say anxiety is the anticipation of loss say anxiety is the anticipation of loss say anxiety is the anticipation of loss in the future it's PTSD so an anxious in the future it's PTSD so an anxious in the future it's PTSD so an anxious baby is clinging because they know their baby is clinging because they know their baby is clinging because they know their mommy's going to leave again and and mommy's going to leave again and and mommy's going to leave again and and that's very much correlated with anxiety that's very much correlated with anxiety that's very much correlated with anxiety in the future. Then there are babies in the future. Then there are babies in the future. Then there are babies that don't have can't find a strategy that don't have can't find a strategy that don't have can't find a strategy and so they end up cycling through all and so they end up cycling through all and so they end up cycling through all of the of the of the coping mechanisms. coping mechanisms. coping mechanisms. >> They might turn away from the mother on >> They might turn away from the mother on >> They might turn away from the mother on the reunion and then cling to the mother the reunion and then cling to the mother the reunion and then cling to the mother and then slap the mother because they're and then slap the mother because they're and then slap the mother because they're enraged and then turn away from the enraged and then turn away from the enraged and then turn away from the mother, cling to the mother and then mother, cling to the mother and then mother, cling to the mother and then slap the mother. And we call this slap the mother. And we call this slap the mother. And we call this disorganized detachment disorder because disorganized detachment disorder because disorganized detachment disorder because it doesn't have a strategy. They can't. it doesn't have a strategy. They can't. it doesn't have a strategy. They can't. It's almost like um gears trying to find It's almost like um gears trying to find It's almost like um gears trying to find where they click in but never quite where they click in but never quite where they click in but never quite finding where they click in. finding where they click in. finding where they click in. >> And that's associated with that kind of >> And that's associated with that kind of >> And that's associated with that kind of emotional volatility is associated with emotional volatility is associated with emotional volatility is associated with borderline personality disorder later borderline personality disorder later borderline personality disorder later on. So we see the results on. So we see the results on. So we see the results of the mental health issues related to of the mental health issues related to of the mental health issues related to these attachment disorders but we don't these attachment disorders but we don't these attachment disorders but we don't want to talk about it because we don't want to talk about it because we don't want to talk about it because we don't want to talk about the room where it want to talk about the room where it want to talk about the room where it happens. >> Why why don't we want to talk about the >> Why why don't we want to talk about the room? room? room? >> Then we would have to question this >> Then we would have to question this >> Then we would have to question this system that we've created which sends system that we've created which sends system that we've created which sends people which first of all values work people which first of all values work people which first of all values work and making money more than anything and making money more than anything and making money more than anything else. careerism and materialism and else. careerism and materialism and else. careerism and materialism and going out into the world values that going out into the world values that going out into the world values that more than anything and pushes women to more than anything and pushes women to more than anything and pushes women to go back into the workforce right away go back into the workforce right away go back into the workforce right away and also tells women that if they stay and also tells women that if they stay and also tells women that if they stay home they're nothing. They're no one. home they're nothing. They're no one. home they're nothing. They're no one. They're invisible. They're meaningless. They're invisible. They're meaningless. They're invisible. They're meaningless. They're powerless. They're useless. They're powerless. They're useless. They're powerless. They're useless. They're without any value. And this is a They're without any value. And this is a They're without any value. And this is a message that's got to change if we want message that's got to change if we want message that's got to change if we want our children to be healthy. our children to be healthy. our children to be healthy. >> What are the uncomfortable realities for >> What are the uncomfortable realities for >> What are the uncomfortable realities for modern women about raising healthy modern women about raising healthy modern women about raising healthy children? that they have to sacrifice children? that they have to sacrifice children? that they have to sacrifice something. And men too, it's both. It's something. And men too, it's both. It's something. And men too, it's both. It's sacrifice. It's the inability to deal sacrifice. It's the inability to deal sacrifice. It's the inability to deal with discomfort and sacrifice and doing with discomfort and sacrifice and doing with discomfort and sacrifice and doing without without without uh for not forever, but in the years uh for not forever, but in the years uh for not forever, but in the years that your children need you the most. that your children need you the most. that your children need you the most. And you know what? I'm going to be And you know what? I'm going to be And you know what? I'm going to be honest. Throughout your children's honest. Throughout your children's honest. Throughout your children's childhood, sacrifice is the word. If you childhood, sacrifice is the word. If you childhood, sacrifice is the word. If you can't make sacrifices, don't have can't make sacrifices, don't have can't make sacrifices, don't have children. Penelopey Leech, a famous children. Penelopey Leech, a famous children. Penelopey Leech, a famous child developmentalist, said well before child developmentalist, said well before child developmentalist, said well before me, "If you don't want to care for your me, "If you don't want to care for your me, "If you don't want to care for your children, don't have them. Just don't do children, don't have them. Just don't do children, don't have them. Just don't do it." it." it." >> But people think that they're caring for >> But people think that they're caring for >> But people think that they're caring for their children. I do care for my child. their children. I do care for my child. their children. I do care for my child. I look after them. I go to work. I take I look after them. I go to work. I take I look after them. I go to work. I take them to dayare. them to dayare. them to dayare. >> Caring for children is actually being >> Caring for children is actually being >> Caring for children is actually being there from moment to moment to help to there from moment to moment to help to there from moment to moment to help to regulate their emotions and being regulate their emotions and being regulate their emotions and being present physically and emotionally present physically and emotionally present physically and emotionally throughout childhood. I'm going to say 0 throughout childhood. I'm going to say 0 throughout childhood. I'm going to say 0 to three is a critical period of brain to three is a critical period of brain to three is a critical period of brain development. But throughout childhood, development. But throughout childhood, development. But throughout childhood, if you're not p if you don't have a if you're not p if you don't have a if you're not p if you don't have a primary person for them to to be primary person for them to to be primary person for them to to be primarily present when they come home primarily present when they come home primarily present when they come home from school, you know, when they're from school, you know, when they're from school, you know, when they're doing their homework at night, you know, doing their homework at night, you know, doing their homework at night, you know, when they are in their transitions of when they are in their transitions of when they are in their transitions of waking up, going to school, coming home waking up, going to school, coming home waking up, going to school, coming home from school, getting ready for bed, from school, getting ready for bed, from school, getting ready for bed, going to sleep, and then doing it all going to sleep, and then doing it all going to sleep, and then doing it all over again the next day. if they don't over again the next day. if they don't over again the next day. if they don't have someone to help them. have someone to help them. have someone to help them. So parents are So parents are So parents are the emotional digestive system for the emotional digestive system for the emotional digestive system for children throughout childhood. children throughout childhood. children throughout childhood. >> They metabolize. Yeah. Yep. >> They metabolize. Yeah. Yep. >> They metabolize. Yeah. Yep. And whenever when it happened that we And whenever when it happened that we And whenever when it happened that we decided that children somehow were born decided that children somehow were born decided that children somehow were born with the ability to metabolize their with the ability to metabolize their with the ability to metabolize their feelings and their experiences and the feelings and their experiences and the feelings and their experiences and the world around them. That's when it world around them. That's when it world around them. That's when it changed for children because they can't changed for children because they can't changed for children because they can't they need us. They need they need to they need us. They need they need to they need us. They need they need to depend on us in those years. And when we depend on us in those years. And when we depend on us in those years. And when we decided that we were all going to just decided that we were all going to just decided that we were all going to just do what was good for us and what felt do what was good for us and what felt do what was good for us and what felt good for us, that's when it changed for good for us, that's when it changed for good for us, that's when it changed for children. children. children. >> How available is available? What does >> How available is available? What does >> How available is available? What does that look like? that look like? that look like? >> So at some point children go to school >> So at some point children go to school >> So at some point children go to school and Maria Monttoauri called school work. and Maria Monttoauri called school work. and Maria Monttoauri called school work. She said they go to work. School is She said they go to work. School is She said they go to work. School is children's work. It's also play. Yes. children's work. It's also play. Yes. children's work. It's also play. Yes. Child labor. It's play. It should be Child labor. It's play. It should be Child labor. It's play. It should be play. It shouldn't be work. But they you play. It shouldn't be work. But they you play. It shouldn't be work. But they you could say it's their work learning could say it's their work learning could say it's their work learning playing to learn. We want to make it playing to learn. We want to make it playing to learn. We want to make it play-based, you know, when they're play-based, you know, when they're play-based, you know, when they're little, but it's their work. So when little, but it's their work. So when little, but it's their work. So when they go to work, you go to work. they go to work, you go to work. they go to work, you go to work. Now, one of you has to work and make Now, one of you has to work and make Now, one of you has to work and make enough money to, you know, have a roof enough money to, you know, have a roof enough money to, you know, have a roof over your head. Whoever is that primary over your head. Whoever is that primary over your head. Whoever is that primary caregiver to that child, the idea is to caregiver to that child, the idea is to caregiver to that child, the idea is to work when they work. You know, I always work when they work. You know, I always work when they work. You know, I always say to young mothers when they have a say to young mothers when they have a say to young mothers when they have a baby, sleep when your baby sleeps. It's baby, sleep when your baby sleeps. It's baby, sleep when your baby sleeps. It's so tempting when you have a baby to like so tempting when you have a baby to like so tempting when you have a baby to like go do the dishes or, you know, write go do the dishes or, you know, write go do the dishes or, you know, write emails or whatever, you know, get on the emails or whatever, you know, get on the emails or whatever, you know, get on the Pelaton or I'm like, "No, no, no, no. Pelaton or I'm like, "No, no, no, no. Pelaton or I'm like, "No, no, no, no. Sleep when the baby sleeps. If you need Sleep when the baby sleeps. If you need Sleep when the baby sleeps. If you need time to yourself, then take a little time to yourself, then take a little time to yourself, then take a little time during the day while the baby's time during the day while the baby's time during the day while the baby's awake and have a mother's helper, have awake and have a mother's helper, have awake and have a mother's helper, have your mother come, have, you know, have, your mother come, have, you know, have, your mother come, have, you know, have, you need to do it with with people you need to do it with with people you need to do it with with people around. You can't do it in isolation." around. You can't do it in isolation." around. You can't do it in isolation." This weird idea that we like isolated This weird idea that we like isolated This weird idea that we like isolated ourselves with babies and spent eight ourselves with babies and spent eight ourselves with babies and spent eight hours alone. I mean, never was that way, hours alone. I mean, never was that way, hours alone. I mean, never was that way, you know. We lived in houses with you know. We lived in houses with you know. We lived in houses with extreme generational Yes. Yeah. extreme generational Yes. Yeah. extreme generational Yes. Yeah. >> Um there's a wonderful man named Mark uh >> Um there's a wonderful man named Mark uh >> Um there's a wonderful man named Mark uh Freriedman who if you ever want to have Freriedman who if you ever want to have Freriedman who if you ever want to have somebody on your podcast who says somebody on your podcast who says somebody on your podcast who says something really interesting like me, something really interesting like me, something really interesting like me, he's been sort of he's sort of, he's been sort of he's sort of, he's been sort of he's sort of, >> how should I say, he's treated badly. >> how should I say, he's treated badly. >> how should I say, he's treated badly. >> Pillar. >> Pillar. >> Pillar. >> Yes. Um controversial. He says he's >> Yes. Um controversial. He says he's >> Yes. Um controversial. He says he's among friends. says we've lost um we've among friends. says we've lost um we've among friends. says we've lost um we've lost extended family generational living lost extended family generational living lost extended family generational living and it's disastrous to us as human and it's disastrous to us as human and it's disastrous to us as human beings and uh it seems like a basic beings and uh it seems like a basic beings and uh it seems like a basic thing but he actually talks about the thing but he actually talks about the thing but he actually talks about the origin of it and he talks about the origin of it and he talks about the origin of it and he talks about the origin of like nursing homes and origin of like nursing homes and origin of like nursing homes and assisted living and how that was founded assisted living and how that was founded assisted living and how that was founded by real estate developers. I was about by real estate developers. I was about by real estate developers. I was about to say one of my friends, Adam Lane to say one of my friends, Adam Lane to say one of my friends, Adam Lane Smith, attachment dude, Smith, attachment dude, Smith, attachment dude, >> I know Adam, >> I know Adam, >> I know Adam, >> wonderful guy. And he's got this he his >> wonderful guy. And he's got this he his >> wonderful guy. And he's got this he his he was the first person that introduced he was the first person that introduced he was the first person that introduced me to this idea. I I I can't remember me to this idea. I I I can't remember me to this idea. I I I can't remember the tweet, but it's something like, the tweet, but it's something like, the tweet, but it's something like, "Never forget that moving away from home "Never forget that moving away from home "Never forget that moving away from home and not living in pgenerational housing and not living in pgenerational housing and not living in pgenerational housing for your entire life is a scup made up for your entire life is a scup made up for your entire life is a scup made up by mortgage companies to keep you poor by mortgage companies to keep you poor by mortgage companies to keep you poor and alone." and alone." and alone." >> Yeah. And it was real estate developers >> Yeah. And it was real estate developers >> Yeah. And it was real estate developers actually. They said we are going to actually. They said we are going to actually. They said we are going to create these adolescent living for older create these adolescent living for older create these adolescent living for older people and tell them that your family people and tell them that your family people and tell them that your family doesn't matter but only you matter. Here doesn't matter but only you matter. Here doesn't matter but only you matter. Here it is. There it is. it is. There it is. it is. There it is. >> Adolescent living for older people. It's >> Adolescent living for older people. It's >> Adolescent living for older people. It's such a hilarious way. It's halls of such a hilarious way. It's halls of such a hilarious way. It's halls of residence residence residence >> for uh for for elderly people. >> for uh for for elderly people. >> for uh for for elderly people. >> You can have a second adolescence. You >> You can have a second adolescence. You >> You can have a second adolescence. You know this kind of weird. know this kind of weird. know this kind of weird. >> Anyway, the thing is is that you know >> Anyway, the thing is is that you know >> Anyway, the thing is is that you know it's very important that that women and it's very important that that women and it's very important that that women and men raise their children with other men raise their children with other men raise their children with other people around that they're not isolated. people around that they're not isolated. people around that they're not isolated. You know, I found this stat. Do you know You know, I found this stat. Do you know You know, I found this stat. Do you know um um um [ __ ] who was the evolutionary [ __ ] who was the evolutionary [ __ ] who was the evolutionary uh pediatrician that we had on the show? uh pediatrician that we had on the show? uh pediatrician that we had on the show? Not Paul Eastwick. Who was the other Not Paul Eastwick. Who was the other Not Paul Eastwick. Who was the other guy? Have a look. The evolutionary guy? Have a look. The evolutionary guy? Have a look. The evolutionary psychology of child rearing. It'll be in psychology of child rearing. It'll be in psychology of child rearing. It'll be in the Spotify thing. Uh just the Spotify thing. Uh just the Spotify thing. Uh just mid70s researcher, evolutionary mid70s researcher, evolutionary mid70s researcher, evolutionary psychology informed. He taught me that psychology informed. He taught me that psychology informed. He taught me that one in six adults in America have one in six adults in America have one in six adults in America have flattening of the occipital lobe. flattening of the occipital lobe. flattening of the occipital lobe. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. So the back of their head is basically a So the back of their head is basically a So the back of their head is basically a lot. You're actually not meant You're lot. You're actually not meant You're lot. You're actually not meant You're actually meant to be on your mother's actually meant to be on your mother's actually meant to be on your mother's body for the first year. body for the first year. body for the first year. >> Bingo. Because this is how this is how >> Bingo. Because this is how this is how >> Bingo. Because this is how this is how much much much >> I know >> I know >> I know >> kids are being left on the ground. Oh, >> kids are being left on the ground. Oh, >> kids are being left on the ground. Oh, you're just on the floor. You're on the you're just on the floor. You're on the you're just on the floor. You're on the floor so much that the floor made an floor so much that the floor made an floor so much that the floor made an imprint on your head. imprint on your head. imprint on your head. >> Yes, that's right. That's right. >> Yes, that's right. That's right. >> Yes, that's right. That's right. >> Your head is the floor now. >> Your head is the floor now. >> Your head is the floor now. >> The neglect is a permanent imprint on >> The neglect is a permanent imprint on >> The neglect is a permanent imprint on your head. your head. your head. >> It's reshaped the back of your head. >> It's reshaped the back of your head. >> It's reshaped the back of your head. shake the back. There are little kids shake the back. There are little kids shake the back. There are little kids families that I treat where they've had families that I treat where they've had families that I treat where they've had to wear helmets and Yeah. to wear helmets and Yeah. to wear helmets and Yeah. >> So, you say uh take your ambitions and >> So, you say uh take your ambitions and >> So, you say uh take your ambitions and leave them at the door when you have leave them at the door when you have leave them at the door when you have children. children. children. >> Yes. For a while. >> Yes. For a while. >> Yes. For a while. >> Yeah. What are the toughest realizations >> Yeah. What are the toughest realizations >> Yeah. What are the toughest realizations that women have to accept given that a that women have to accept given that a that women have to accept given that a lot of pride and and worth by society is lot of pride and and worth by society is lot of pride and and worth by society is laid at the feet of what they what's laid at the feet of what they what's laid at the feet of what they what's your job projections and what are you your job projections and what are you your job projections and what are you going to do with your career and when going to do with your career and when going to do with your career and when are you going to go back? Again, that's are you going to go back? Again, that's are you going to go back? Again, that's a societal societal shift that we that a societal societal shift that we that a societal societal shift that we that has to change. It has to happen because has to change. It has to happen because has to change. It has to happen because if we only value work outside the home if we only value work outside the home if we only value work outside the home as valuable work, then women will as valuable work, then women will as valuable work, then women will continue to feel internal conflict over continue to feel internal conflict over continue to feel internal conflict over something they feel pulled towards. So, something they feel pulled towards. So, something they feel pulled towards. So, in a way, I think what I've done with my in a way, I think what I've done with my in a way, I think what I've done with my books and with my platform is give women books and with my platform is give women books and with my platform is give women permission and tell them that your work permission and tell them that your work permission and tell them that your work is valuable. What you do when you care is valuable. What you do when you care is valuable. What you do when you care for your children is probably the most for your children is probably the most for your children is probably the most valuable thing you'll ever do in your valuable thing you'll ever do in your valuable thing you'll ever do in your life. That doesn't diminish your career. life. That doesn't diminish your career. life. That doesn't diminish your career. And in fact, whatever career you had, And in fact, whatever career you had, And in fact, whatever career you had, whatever skills you built, whatever skills you built, whatever skills you built, >> you don't lose them. You don't get >> you don't lose them. You don't get >> you don't lose them. You don't get amnesia and forget them all. You don't amnesia and forget them all. You don't amnesia and forget them all. You don't become and this is you know you'd say we become and this is you know you'd say we become and this is you know you'd say we have terrorized women into believing have terrorized women into believing have terrorized women into believing that they lose everything if they take that they lose everything if they take that they lose everything if they take time off that they lose all their skills time off that they lose all their skills time off that they lose all their skills and all their position in their careers and all their position in their careers and all their position in their careers and it's just a bunch of baloney because and it's just a bunch of baloney because and it's just a bunch of baloney because you never lose your skills and if you you never lose your skills and if you you never lose your skills and if you had an identity in a work or a had an identity in a work or a had an identity in a work or a profession you don't lose that you profession you don't lose that you profession you don't lose that you always have that in some way it's a part always have that in some way it's a part always have that in some way it's a part of you and it will always be a part of of you and it will always be a part of of you and it will always be a part of you and you'll come back and use it in you and you'll come back and use it in you and you'll come back and use it in whatever way you use it. Um, I used to whatever way you use it. Um, I used to whatever way you use it. Um, I used to fly to visit my sister in London. She fly to visit my sister in London. She fly to visit my sister in London. She lived in London her whole adult life. lived in London her whole adult life. lived in London her whole adult life. And every time she'd pick me up at the And every time she'd pick me up at the And every time she'd pick me up at the airport, she would drive me a different airport, she would drive me a different airport, she would drive me a different way back. It was kind of crazy making. way back. It was kind of crazy making. way back. It was kind of crazy making. She'd drive me a different way back to She'd drive me a different way back to She'd drive me a different way back to her house and I'd be like, "Karen, what her house and I'd be like, "Karen, what her house and I'd be like, "Karen, what what's going on?" She's like, "Oh." She what's going on?" She's like, "Oh." She what's going on?" She's like, "Oh." She said, "I love going different ways said, "I love going different ways said, "I love going different ways because you never know like what you're because you never know like what you're because you never know like what you're going to find and you might find going to find and you might find going to find and you might find actually a more interesting way and a actually a more interesting way and a actually a more interesting way and a shortcut or you know might be a better shortcut or you know might be a better shortcut or you know might be a better way." And I thought that's sort of an way." And I thought that's sort of an way." And I thought that's sort of an interesting metaphor that when you take interesting metaphor that when you take interesting metaphor that when you take time off or slow down when you have a time off or slow down when you have a time off or slow down when you have a baby, you never know how transformative baby, you never know how transformative baby, you never know how transformative having a baby will be. So, you never having a baby will be. So, you never having a baby will be. So, you never know what kind of work you're going to know what kind of work you're going to know what kind of work you're going to want to do in the future. It may be the want to do in the future. It may be the want to do in the future. It may be the same kind of work. It may be something same kind of work. It may be something same kind of work. It may be something completely different in the future. How completely different in the future. How completely different in the future. How fascinating that you've lived fascinating that you've lived fascinating that you've lived two decades, three decades, four decades two decades, three decades, four decades two decades, three decades, four decades of your life with this is what I like of your life with this is what I like of your life with this is what I like and this is why I'm here and this is and this is why I'm here and this is and this is why I'm here and this is what I'm into and I know me and I know what I'm into and I know me and I know what I'm into and I know me and I know what's best for me and then someone what's best for me and then someone what's best for me and then someone comes along and sort of shakes the etch comes along and sort of shakes the etch comes along and sort of shakes the etch a sketch that you've drawn your life a sketch that you've drawn your life a sketch that you've drawn your life with. with. with. >> That's right. >> That's right. >> That's right. >> And you go, "Oh, that was such a >> And you go, "Oh, that was such a >> And you go, "Oh, that was such a existential upheaval." existential upheaval." existential upheaval." >> Actually, maybe I Huh. I like people. >> Actually, maybe I Huh. I like people. >> Actually, maybe I Huh. I like people. >> Yeah, >> Yeah, >> Yeah, >> I like people. I didn't think I didn't >> I like people. I didn't think I didn't >> I like people. I didn't think I didn't think that I liked people, but there's think that I liked people, but there's think that I liked people, but there's this obsession with this obsession with this obsession with >> objective metrics of success. And we >> objective metrics of success. And we >> objective metrics of success. And we often trade I kind of got this thing often trade I kind of got this thing often trade I kind of got this thing that I can't unsee anymore that we trade that I can't unsee anymore that we trade that I can't unsee anymore that we trade uh hidden metrics for observable metrics uh hidden metrics for observable metrics uh hidden metrics for observable metrics all the time. So, a hidden metric might all the time. So, a hidden metric might all the time. So, a hidden metric might be the quality of your sleep or the be the quality of your sleep or the be the quality of your sleep or the peacefulness of your mind as you get to peacefulness of your mind as you get to peacefulness of your mind as you get to go in the shower or the quality of your go in the shower or the quality of your go in the shower or the quality of your relationship with your partner or how relationship with your partner or how relationship with your partner or how deeply you and your baby get to connect. deeply you and your baby get to connect. deeply you and your baby get to connect. But what are the things that are more But what are the things that are more But what are the things that are more measurable, that are more objective? measurable, that are more objective? measurable, that are more objective? What's the car that you drive, the What's the car that you drive, the What's the car that you drive, the postcode that you live in, the salary postcode that you live in, the salary postcode that you live in, the salary that you've got, the job title you have? that you've got, the job title you have? that you've got, the job title you have? Uh how important is the company that Uh how important is the company that Uh how important is the company that you're working for? How many other you're working for? How many other you're working for? How many other people know you? Follow us online, people know you? Follow us online, people know you? Follow us online, social media, bank account. social media, bank account. social media, bank account. And it is it that's the bit that I And it is it that's the bit that I And it is it that's the bit that I really really struggle to sort of square really really struggle to sort of square really really struggle to sort of square the circle of which is nobody loves big the circle of which is nobody loves big the circle of which is nobody loves big corporations and almost everybody corporations and almost everybody corporations and almost everybody [ __ ] works for them. Almost everyone [ __ ] works for them. Almost everyone [ __ ] works for them. Almost everyone is working for this nameless faceless is working for this nameless faceless is working for this nameless faceless organization to whom you are just organization to whom you are just organization to whom you are just employee number 1,224. employee number 1,224. employee number 1,224. >> Mhm. And yet that's supposed to be the >> Mhm. And yet that's supposed to be the >> Mhm. And yet that's supposed to be the thing that if it's taken away from a thing that if it's taken away from a thing that if it's taken away from a mother or a woman in order to become a mother or a woman in order to become a mother or a woman in order to become a mother is the worst possible scenario mother is the worst possible scenario mother is the worst possible scenario that she can go through. I feel like I that she can go through. I feel like I that she can go through. I feel like I need to do this [ __ ] throat clearing need to do this [ __ ] throat clearing need to do this [ __ ] throat clearing thing because when I don't, the internet thing because when I don't, the internet thing because when I don't, the internet comes for me. comes for me. comes for me. Absolutely. In the past, women have been Absolutely. In the past, women have been Absolutely. In the past, women have been financial prisoners of marriages where financial prisoners of marriages where financial prisoners of marriages where they haven't been able to leave. That is they haven't been able to leave. That is they haven't been able to leave. That is not something that we want. I think not something that we want. I think not something that we want. I think every woman should be able to have a every woman should be able to have a every woman should be able to have a mar, have a family or not have a family mar, have a family or not have a family mar, have a family or not have a family freely and that that should be afforded freely and that that should be afforded freely and that that should be afforded that should be afforded through their that should be afforded through their that should be afforded through their financial freedom. Like that is financial freedom. Like that is financial freedom. Like that is important. Also, they want to feel like important. Also, they want to feel like important. Also, they want to feel like they're an agent. They want to feel like they're an agent. They want to feel like they're an agent. They want to feel like they've got sovereignty in the world. they've got sovereignty in the world. they've got sovereignty in the world. They want to feel like they can do They want to feel like they can do They want to feel like they can do things. They've accomplished things. things. They've accomplished things. things. They've accomplished things. >> But what is good to accomplish? [ __ ] >> But what is good to accomplish? [ __ ] >> But what is good to accomplish? [ __ ] industrial revolution was 15 120 years industrial revolution was 15 120 years industrial revolution was 15 120 years ago. It wasn't that long ago when this ago. It wasn't that long ago when this ago. It wasn't that long ago when this thing really got going. So to talk about thing really got going. So to talk about thing really got going. So to talk about what's important and I mean even think what's important and I mean even think what's important and I mean even think about how curated it was that the school about how curated it was that the school about how curated it was that the school bells used in schools in the UK were the bells used in schools in the UK were the bells used in schools in the UK were the same ones that they used in the same ones that they used in the same ones that they used in the factories. factories. factories. >> Mhm. >> Mhm. >> Mhm. >> Right. That's how conditioned people >> Right. That's how conditioned people >> Right. That's how conditioned people were. were. were. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> That your job is to go and work. In >> That your job is to go and work. In >> That your job is to go and work. In ancient Greek, the ancient Greek word ancient Greek, the ancient Greek word ancient Greek, the ancient Greek word for work was not at leisure. for work was not at leisure. for work was not at leisure. >> And the modern world has sort of turned >> And the modern world has sort of turned >> And the modern world has sort of turned this thing inside out. And I I don't this thing inside out. And I I don't this thing inside out. And I I don't know. It just it's a really strange know. It just it's a really strange know. It just it's a really strange upheaval of what would have been to me a upheaval of what would have been to me a upheaval of what would have been to me a much more direct route for women to have much more direct route for women to have much more direct route for women to have value and a sense of purpose and meaning value and a sense of purpose and meaning value and a sense of purpose and meaning than this weird than this weird than this weird round the houses inversion thing. And I round the houses inversion thing. And I round the houses inversion thing. And I understand that somebody who [ __ ] understand that somebody who [ __ ] understand that somebody who [ __ ] presents like me and looks like me presents like me and looks like me presents like me and looks like me talking about this sounds perilously talking about this sounds perilously talking about this sounds perilously close to someone going, "I want to get close to someone going, "I want to get close to someone going, "I want to get women out of the boardroom and back into women out of the boardroom and back into women out of the boardroom and back into the kitchen and you should have a the kitchen and you should have a the kitchen and you should have a [ __ ] degree." And [ __ ] degree." And [ __ ] degree." And I don't think that at all. I don't think that at all. I don't think that at all. >> Well, no. And I I'm going to say that >> Well, no. And I I'm going to say that >> Well, no. And I I'm going to say that the women that I treat who come to me the women that I treat who come to me the women that I treat who come to me now it is a a particular group of people now it is a a particular group of people now it is a a particular group of people come because they are looking for come because they are looking for come because they are looking for permission to leave that environment and permission to leave that environment and permission to leave that environment and and to find many of them want to stay and to find many of them want to stay and to find many of them want to stay with their children but many of them are with their children but many of them are with their children but many of them are looking for a kind of work that gives looking for a kind of work that gives looking for a kind of work that gives them agency real agency and real control them agency real agency and real control them agency real agency and real control and real flexibility. So the illusion and real flexibility. So the illusion and real flexibility. So the illusion that being in the corporate world gives that being in the corporate world gives that being in the corporate world gives you agency and control and flexibility, you agency and control and flexibility, you agency and control and flexibility, it's like the matrix because it doesn't it's like the matrix because it doesn't it's like the matrix because it doesn't give you agency and it doesn't give you give you agency and it doesn't give you give you agency and it doesn't give you control and it doesn't give you control and it doesn't give you control and it doesn't give you flexibility. flexibility. flexibility. >> You've got Stockholm syndrome over your >> You've got Stockholm syndrome over your >> You've got Stockholm syndrome over your own capital, right? But you've own capital, right? But you've own capital, right? But you've voluntarily decided to put yourself voluntarily decided to put yourself voluntarily decided to put yourself into. So the best fields for women and into. So the best fields for women and into. So the best fields for women and you know and I have said this many times you know and I have said this many times you know and I have said this many times before the best fields for women are not before the best fields for women are not before the best fields for women are not where they have a boss but where they where they have a boss but where they where they have a boss but where they are their own boss or they form are their own boss or they form are their own boss or they form cooperatives where they are one of the cooperatives where they are one of the cooperatives where they are one of the bosses. bosses. bosses. >> What's an example of some of those >> What's an example of some of those >> What's an example of some of those businesses? businesses? businesses? >> Service fields. Service fields are >> Service fields. Service fields are >> Service fields. Service fields are wonderful where they can control the wonderful where they can control the wonderful where they can control the service whether they're massage service whether they're massage service whether they're massage therapists or psychotherapists or speech therapists or psychotherapists or speech therapists or psychotherapists or speech therapists or even attorneys um that therapists or even attorneys um that therapists or even attorneys um that don't work in big corporate firms even don't work in big corporate firms even don't work in big corporate firms even nurses and uh and doctors who don't want nurses and uh and doctors who don't want nurses and uh and doctors who don't want to work in big corporate hospitals. You to work in big corporate hospitals. You to work in big corporate hospitals. You know, anyone who provides a service know, anyone who provides a service know, anyone who provides a service where they're their own boss where they're their own boss where they're their own boss >> but not a teacher. Unfortunately, >> but not a teacher. Unfortunately, >> but not a teacher. Unfortunately, >> some teachers, tutors, >> some teachers, tutors, >> some teachers, tutors, >> uh people who decide to teach on their >> uh people who decide to teach on their >> uh people who decide to teach on their own terms, um you can you can take those own terms, um you can you can take those own terms, um you can you can take those any service field is far better for any service field is far better for any service field is far better for women because they can have some control women because they can have some control women because they can have some control and agency and have flexibility over and agency and have flexibility over and agency and have flexibility over their work. Um and control how many their work. Um and control how many their work. Um and control how many hours a week they work and what fees hours a week they work and what fees hours a week they work and what fees they get. And if their child is sick, they get. And if their child is sick, they get. And if their child is sick, the only boss they have to report to is the only boss they have to report to is the only boss they have to report to is themsel and their clients. Yeah, they themsel and their clients. Yeah, they themsel and their clients. Yeah, they can just adapt the workload can just adapt the workload can just adapt the workload appropriately. appropriately. appropriately. >> Yeah. So, but the idea of working in big >> Yeah. So, but the idea of working in big >> Yeah. So, but the idea of working in big corporate settings or um I had a doctor corporate settings or um I had a doctor corporate settings or um I had a doctor who came up to me when I wrote being who came up to me when I wrote being who came up to me when I wrote being there um and she was a Harvard trained there um and she was a Harvard trained there um and she was a Harvard trained pediatrician. pediatrician. pediatrician. Her whole Her whole Her whole responsibility was on helping children responsibility was on helping children responsibility was on helping children to be healthy. And she said um Harvard to be healthy. And she said um Harvard to be healthy. And she said um Harvard gave me three weeks. gave me three weeks. gave me three weeks. three weeks my body wasn't even healed three weeks my body wasn't even healed three weeks my body wasn't even healed and I had to go back to work in the and I had to go back to work in the and I had to go back to work in the hospital. She said, "Please do something hospital. She said, "Please do something hospital. She said, "Please do something about this." And so, right, about this." And so, right, about this." And so, right, >> this country is so [ __ ] >> this country is so [ __ ] >> this country is so [ __ ] >> right? So the idea that you somehow have >> right? So the idea that you somehow have >> right? So the idea that you somehow have power when you work for a corporation if power when you work for a corporation if power when you work for a corporation if you're trying to I mean again I had two you're trying to I mean again I had two you're trying to I mean again I had two parents who uh were not rich but they parents who uh were not rich but they parents who uh were not rich but they they my father had his own he had a they my father had his own he had a they my father had his own he had a furniture business but he had his own furniture business but he had his own furniture business but he had his own business and uh my mother was a business and uh my mother was a business and uh my mother was a bookkeeper that worked in his business bookkeeper that worked in his business bookkeeper that worked in his business and they always said to me uh and my and they always said to me uh and my and they always said to me uh and my sisters if at all possible be your own sisters if at all possible be your own sisters if at all possible be your own boss and that's something my husband boss and that's something my husband boss and that's something my husband also learned from from his parents. And also learned from from his parents. And also learned from from his parents. And so, you know, so, you know, so, you know, >> be your own boss or have your husband be >> be your own boss or have your husband be >> be your own boss or have your husband be your boss. your boss. your boss. >> People people say that, you know, is it >> People people say that, you know, is it >> People people say that, you know, is it elitist to say that? No. Because if you elitist to say that? No. Because if you elitist to say that? No. Because if you look at other parts of the world, women look at other parts of the world, women look at other parts of the world, women form form form baking cooperatives and artist baking cooperatives and artist baking cooperatives and artist cooperatives and you know in a way in cooperatives and you know in a way in cooperatives and you know in a way in many parts of the world um family many parts of the world um family many parts of the world um family businesses where you have some say an businesses where you have some say an businesses where you have some say an agency you know in India if you go and agency you know in India if you go and agency you know in India if you go and you see a fruit stand that's run by a you see a fruit stand that's run by a you see a fruit stand that's run by a family where the mom goes with the family where the mom goes with the family where the mom goes with the children and then when she needs to take children and then when she needs to take children and then when she needs to take off the aunt comes in or so but no the off the aunt comes in or so but no the off the aunt comes in or so but no the corporate world is it's a ruse. corporate world is it's a ruse. corporate world is it's a ruse. >> What does the evidence suggest around >> What does the evidence suggest around >> What does the evidence suggest around let's say it's a family where the man is let's say it's a family where the man is let's say it's a family where the man is able to provide enough that the mother able to provide enough that the mother able to provide enough that the mother doesn't need to work? What are the doesn't need to work? What are the doesn't need to work? What are the outcomes of someone of of a woman outcomes of someone of of a woman outcomes of someone of of a woman choosing to not go back to work versus choosing to not go back to work versus choosing to not go back to work versus going back? Is this just super going back? Is this just super going back? Is this just super idiosyncratic? It depends on how you idiosyncratic? It depends on how you idiosyncratic? It depends on how you feel work is valuable to you or feel work is valuable to you or feel work is valuable to you or >> Yeah. I mean, I think that part of >> Yeah. I mean, I think that part of >> Yeah. I mean, I think that part of what's happened, too, is that divorce is what's happened, too, is that divorce is what's happened, too, is that divorce is so high so high so high and um women are so afraid to depend on and um women are so afraid to depend on and um women are so afraid to depend on men. So, we've also told women not to men. So, we've also told women not to men. So, we've also told women not to depend on men and we tell men not to depend on men and we tell men not to depend on men and we tell men not to depend on women. And so, and then we depend on women. And so, and then we depend on women. And so, and then we wonder why nobody that's young wants to wonder why nobody that's young wants to wonder why nobody that's young wants to get married and have children. We told get married and have children. We told get married and have children. We told them, don't depend on anybody. You can't them, don't depend on anybody. You can't them, don't depend on anybody. You can't trust men. trust men. trust men. >> Uh they're untrustworthy. >> Uh they're untrustworthy. >> Uh they're untrustworthy. So you don't want to form a So you don't want to form a So you don't want to form a collaborative team with someone who you collaborative team with someone who you collaborative team with someone who you can't trust. I mean you have to have can't trust. I mean you have to have can't trust. I mean you have to have secure attachment enough to make good secure attachment enough to make good secure attachment enough to make good choices of who you trust and then to choices of who you trust and then to choices of who you trust and then to trust them. trust them. trust them. >> Oh so it becomes a self-perpetuating >> Oh so it becomes a self-perpetuating >> Oh so it becomes a self-perpetuating loop. loop. loop. >> It does. >> It does. >> It does. >> You have somebody who is unable to be >> You have somebody who is unable to be >> You have somebody who is unable to be securely attached. Therefore their securely attached. Therefore their securely attached. Therefore their ability to discern is poor. Therefore ability to discern is poor. Therefore ability to discern is poor. Therefore they choose poorly. they choose poorly. they choose poorly. >> That's right. >> That's right. >> That's right. >> They get a story that reinforces the >> They get a story that reinforces the >> They get a story that reinforces the >> down we go. It's called neurotic >> down we go. It's called neurotic >> down we go. It's called neurotic repetition. Freud called it neurotic repetition. Freud called it neurotic repetition. Freud called it neurotic repetition. repetition. repetition. >> What's it referred to as mo in modern >> What's it referred to as mo in modern >> What's it referred to as mo in modern times? times? times? >> We repeat patterns of behavior that are >> We repeat patterns of behavior that are >> We repeat patterns of behavior that are unhealthy. And so, right, so if we don't unhealthy. And so, right, so if we don't unhealthy. And so, right, so if we don't trust if we're a woman who doesn't trust trust if we're a woman who doesn't trust trust if we're a woman who doesn't trust a man to lean on, then we're not willing a man to lean on, then we're not willing a man to lean on, then we're not willing to form a team with that person because to form a team with that person because to form a team with that person because there may be times when our husbands there may be times when our husbands there may be times when our husbands lean on us. I mean, you know, I mean, lean on us. I mean, you know, I mean, lean on us. I mean, you know, I mean, I'm not exactly a perfect example, but I'm not exactly a perfect example, but I'm not exactly a perfect example, but my husband worked super hard in his my husband worked super hard in his my husband worked super hard in his practice, uh, and starting his nonprofit practice, uh, and starting his nonprofit practice, uh, and starting his nonprofit when our kids were really young. And I when our kids were really young. And I when our kids were really young. And I took time off with each kid and then, took time off with each kid and then, took time off with each kid and then, and then worked very little, very, very, and then worked very little, very, very, and then worked very little, very, very, very little. Just enough. I had a deal very little. Just enough. I had a deal very little. Just enough. I had a deal with my husband, just enough to pay the with my husband, just enough to pay the with my husband, just enough to pay the mother's helper who who helped me during mother's helper who who helped me during mother's helper who who helped me during the day with three kids. And um and now the day with three kids. And um and now the day with three kids. And um and now I'm running all over the world writing I'm running all over the world writing I'm running all over the world writing books, seeing more patients than I ever books, seeing more patients than I ever books, seeing more patients than I ever saw when I was young. And he's spending saw when I was young. And he's spending saw when I was young. And he's spending still in his practice, but spending more still in his practice, but spending more still in his practice, but spending more time skiing, hiking, seeing friends, time skiing, hiking, seeing friends, time skiing, hiking, seeing friends, doing the relationship building that he doing the relationship building that he doing the relationship building that he couldn't do when he was young when I was couldn't do when he was young when I was couldn't do when he was young when I was building relationships with other building relationships with other building relationships with other mothers. And so, and so what I would say mothers. And so, and so what I would say mothers. And so, and so what I would say is you can do everything in life. You is you can do everything in life. You is you can do everything in life. You just can't do it all at once. Isn't that just can't do it all at once. Isn't that just can't do it all at once. Isn't that [ __ ] cool to think about? Okay, we're [ __ ] cool to think about? Okay, we're [ __ ] cool to think about? Okay, we're going to do this for the rest of time. going to do this for the rest of time. going to do this for the rest of time. Me and you are going to do this for the Me and you are going to do this for the Me and you are going to do this for the rest of time. We're in our 20s or 30s. rest of time. We're in our 20s or 30s. rest of time. We're in our 20s or 30s. We're going to do this for the rest of We're going to do this for the rest of We're going to do this for the rest of time. We do not need to win the first time. We do not need to win the first time. We do not need to win the first play. It does not need to be me just play. It does not need to be me just play. It does not need to be me just dribbling it down the court in order to dribbling it down the court in order to dribbling it down the court in order to be able to do that. be able to do that. be able to do that. >> What do you do if you're scared that the >> What do you do if you're scared that the >> What do you do if you're scared that the person is going to leave you? If you're person is going to leave you? If you're person is going to leave you? If you're always waiting for the penny to drop. always waiting for the penny to drop. always waiting for the penny to drop. And we have told women to not trust men. And we have told women to not trust men. And we have told women to not trust men. And as a result, maybe men have become And as a result, maybe men have become And as a result, maybe men have become less trustworthy. I'm not sure whether less trustworthy. I'm not sure whether less trustworthy. I'm not sure whether it is a it is a vicious cycle, you know, it is a it is a vicious cycle, you know, it is a it is a vicious cycle, you know, but we have told young people not to but we have told young people not to but we have told young people not to trust each other. It's a they we've told trust each other. It's a they we've told trust each other. It's a they we've told them it's a it's a it's a tentative them it's a it's a it's a tentative them it's a it's a it's a tentative connection connection connection >> and it can break at any time. >> and it can break at any time. >> and it can break at any time. >> What what certainly has happened is that >> What what certainly has happened is that >> What what certainly has happened is that less is being expected of everybody less is being expected of everybody less is being expected of everybody all at the same time. I guess all at the same time. I guess all at the same time. I guess increasingly we're seeing female increasingly we're seeing female increasingly we're seeing female breadwinners be the primary contributor breadwinners be the primary contributor breadwinners be the primary contributor financially. If a woman is the fe is the financially. If a woman is the fe is the financially. If a woman is the fe is the if a woman is the primary bread winner, if a woman is the primary bread winner, if a woman is the primary bread winner, can't the father just be the primary can't the father just be the primary can't the father just be the primary caregiver and the mom go to work? caregiver and the mom go to work? caregiver and the mom go to work? >> Yes. And it's happening more and more. >> Yes. And it's happening more and more. >> Yes. And it's happening more and more. But if we do that then we have to look But if we do that then we have to look But if we do that then we have to look at the problems associated with it. We at the problems associated with it. We at the problems associated with it. We can't just say oh we just switch it. can't just say oh we just switch it. can't just say oh we just switch it. It's like you know like red for blue and It's like you know like red for blue and It's like you know like red for blue and blue for red. What are the what are the blue for red. What are the what are the blue for red. What are the what are the problems associated with a female problems associated with a female problems associated with a female primary bread winner? primary bread winner? primary bread winner? >> So, one of the issues is that um fathers >> So, one of the issues is that um fathers >> So, one of the issues is that um fathers do need to be trained to be sensitive do need to be trained to be sensitive do need to be trained to be sensitive empathic nurturers. Not all, some get it empathic nurturers. Not all, some get it empathic nurturers. Not all, some get it down pretty quickly, but remember the down pretty quickly, but remember the down pretty quickly, but remember the playful tactile stimulation is playful tactile stimulation is playful tactile stimulation is important, but the sensitive empathic important, but the sensitive empathic important, but the sensitive empathic nurturing is more important in the early nurturing is more important in the early nurturing is more important in the early years. So, the father who wears the baby years. So, the father who wears the baby years. So, the father who wears the baby skin-to-skin and feeds the baby as if skin-to-skin and feeds the baby as if skin-to-skin and feeds the baby as if he's breastfeeding, makes eye contact, he's breastfeeding, makes eye contact, he's breastfeeding, makes eye contact, left side cradles, looks at the baby left side cradles, looks at the baby left side cradles, looks at the baby when he's feeding the baby with a when he's feeding the baby with a when he's feeding the baby with a bottle. bottle. bottle. >> Why left? >> Why left? >> Why left? >> Oh, left side cradling is right brain to >> Oh, left side cradling is right brain to >> Oh, left side cradling is right brain to right brain connection. One of the ways right brain connection. One of the ways right brain connection. One of the ways we diagnose postpartum depression is if we diagnose postpartum depression is if we diagnose postpartum depression is if I handed you a baby, do we have a doll I handed you a baby, do we have a doll I handed you a baby, do we have a doll anywhere? Would you grab the baby on the anywhere? Would you grab the baby on the anywhere? Would you grab the baby on the left side or the right side? Well, now left side or the right side? Well, now left side or the right side? Well, now I'm telling you, so you're you're going I'm telling you, so you're you're going I'm telling you, so you're you're going to it'll influence you. But generally, to it'll influence you. But generally, to it'll influence you. But generally, um, someone who is securely attached, a um, someone who is securely attached, a um, someone who is securely attached, a mother will grab the baby on the left mother will grab the baby on the left mother will grab the baby on the left side. Even though you have two breasts side. Even though you have two breasts side. Even though you have two breasts that you feed with, usually a healthy that you feed with, usually a healthy that you feed with, usually a healthy mother, an emotionally healthy mother mother, an emotionally healthy mother mother, an emotionally healthy mother has a larger left breast than she does. has a larger left breast than she does. has a larger left breast than she does. An emotionally healthy mother has a An emotionally healthy mother has a An emotionally healthy mother has a larger left breast larger left breast larger left breast >> when she's breastfeeding because because >> when she's breastfeeding because because >> when she's breastfeeding because because she feeds primarily on the left side she feeds primarily on the left side she feeds primarily on the left side because that's the side where she feels because that's the side where she feels because that's the side where she feels most connected to the baby's right most connected to the baby's right most connected to the baby's right brain. brain. brain. >> No [ __ ] way. >> No [ __ ] way. >> No [ __ ] way. >> Yes [ __ ] way. >> Yes [ __ ] way. >> Yes [ __ ] way. >> Hang on. Hang on. Is this not >> Hang on. Hang on. Is this not >> Hang on. Hang on. Is this not >> It's not left-handed rightanded. >> It's not left-handed rightanded. >> It's not left-handed rightanded. >> No, no, no, no, no. What is What is the >> No, no, no, no, no. What is What is the >> No, no, no, no, no. What is What is the thing about um eye to eye that thing about um eye to eye that thing about um eye to eye that >> it's it's crossed left brain your right >> it's it's crossed left brain your right >> it's it's crossed left brain your right brain connects with the baby's right brain connects with the baby's right brain connects with the baby's right brain? Is there not something I swear brain? Is there not something I swear brain? Is there not something I swear that I had I swear that I had a that I had I swear that I had a that I had I swear that I had a conversation with a NLP and conversation conversation with a NLP and conversation conversation with a NLP and conversation expert and she was talking about expert and she was talking about expert and she was talking about focusing on the other person's left eye focusing on the other person's left eye focusing on the other person's left eye >> Mhm. >> Mhm. >> Mhm. >> that looking at that not looking at that >> that looking at that not looking at that >> that looking at that not looking at that one looking at that one. Do you know one looking at that one. Do you know one looking at that one. Do you know this stuff? Do you know what I'm talking this stuff? Do you know what I'm talking this stuff? Do you know what I'm talking about? about? about? >> It's the same It's the same research. >> It's the same It's the same research. >> It's the same It's the same research. >> It's just reflecting this in adulthood. >> It's just reflecting this in adulthood. >> It's just reflecting this in adulthood. right brain to right brain to another right brain to right brain to another right brain to right brain to another person person person >> but because it's flipped because we >> but because it's flipped because we >> but because it's flipped because we cross over which is where the split cross over which is where the split cross over which is where the split brain patient and the painting of the brain patient and the painting of the brain patient and the painting of the >> hand you hand a baby you could try it >> hand you hand a baby you could try it >> hand you hand a baby you could try it you hand a baby to a friend and say you hand a baby to a friend and say you hand a baby to a friend and say could you hold or you know you'll see could you hold or you know you'll see could you hold or you know you'll see whether they so one thing is right brain whether they so one thing is right brain whether they so one thing is right brain uh if they cradle on the right side it's uh if they cradle on the right side it's uh if they cradle on the right side it's more disconnected and it's not as more disconnected and it's not as more disconnected and it's not as natural from others so again teaching natural from others so again teaching natural from others so again teaching fathers oh cradle on the left side look fathers oh cradle on the left side look fathers oh cradle on the left side look at the baby don't look at your phone if at the baby don't look at your phone if at the baby don't look at your phone if the baby's crying, don't encourage them the baby's crying, don't encourage them the baby's crying, don't encourage them out of it. Actually reflect their out of it. Actually reflect their out of it. Actually reflect their emotions and say, "Oh, sweetheart, I see emotions and say, "Oh, sweetheart, I see emotions and say, "Oh, sweetheart, I see you're crying." Do what mothers do. Be a you're crying." Do what mothers do. Be a you're crying." Do what mothers do. Be a mother, not a father. mother, not a father. mother, not a father. >> In those early years, you can teach some >> In those early years, you can teach some >> In those early years, you can teach some of this stuff. Um, so, and then what are of this stuff. Um, so, and then what are of this stuff. Um, so, and then what are some of the other complications? Um, some of the other complications? Um, some of the other complications? Um, that that that when mothers give up that role, when mothers give up that role, when mothers give up that role, um, they don't give up the longing for um, they don't give up the longing for um, they don't give up the longing for that role. that role. that role. And so it causes competitiveness and And so it causes competitiveness and And so it causes competitiveness and envy. If a mother comes home and the envy. If a mother comes home and the envy. If a mother comes home and the baby is reaching for the father, but the baby is reaching for the father, but the baby is reaching for the father, but the mother still feels like mother still feels like mother still feels like all of this gender all of this gender all of this gender >> switching. We don't realize that a lot >> switching. We don't realize that a lot >> switching. We don't realize that a lot of this stuff is evolutionary of this stuff is evolutionary of this stuff is evolutionary >> because how many times has a father come >> because how many times has a father come >> because how many times has a father come home and seen the baby reaching for the home and seen the baby reaching for the home and seen the baby reaching for the mother. mother. mother. >> That's right. >> That's right. >> That's right. >> And thought, why are you not reaching >> And thought, why are you not reaching >> And thought, why are you not reaching for me? for me? for me? >> That's right. Except now the mother's >> That's right. Except now the mother's >> That's right. Except now the mother's really very strong instincts. If you ask really very strong instincts. If you ask really very strong instincts. If you ask most mothers who work full-time, who's most mothers who work full-time, who's most mothers who work full-time, who's the primary attachment figure? the primary attachment figure? the primary attachment figure? >> They'll still say me. >> They'll still say me. >> They'll still say me. >> Unlike John Baldi said, the primary >> Unlike John Baldi said, the primary >> Unlike John Baldi said, the primary attachment figure is the person who is attachment figure is the person who is attachment figure is the person who is with the baby the majority of the day with the baby the majority of the day with the baby the majority of the day from moment to moment to soo them from from moment to moment to soo them from from moment to moment to soo them from moment to moment when they're in moment to moment when they're in moment to moment when they're in distress. That's the primary attachment. distress. That's the primary attachment. distress. That's the primary attachment. There are some hard and fast physics of There are some hard and fast physics of There are some hard and fast physics of the system that are difficult to work the system that are difficult to work the system that are difficult to work around. I don't know whether you've seen around. I don't know whether you've seen around. I don't know whether you've seen this research. This is really really this research. This is really really this research. This is really really new. Uh the bottom two quintiles of male new. Uh the bottom two quintiles of male new. Uh the bottom two quintiles of male earners and the top quintile of female earners and the top quintile of female earners and the top quintile of female earners are now mating earners are now mating earners are now mating their relationships are female primary their relationships are female primary their relationships are female primary bread winner. So the bottom 40% of men bread winner. So the bottom 40% of men bread winner. So the bottom 40% of men in their earning bracket and the top 20% in their earning bracket and the top 20% in their earning bracket and the top 20% of women are in this dynamic where the of women are in this dynamic where the of women are in this dynamic where the woman is is earning more. Now woman is is earning more. Now woman is is earning more. Now what does this mean for predicting what does this mean for predicting what does this mean for predicting future income? Does this it could be par future income? Does this it could be par future income? Does this it could be par or just a little bit of a difference? Uh or just a little bit of a difference? Uh or just a little bit of a difference? Uh but I think this is going to be this is but I think this is going to be this is but I think this is going to be this is going to be an increasing going to be an increasing going to be an increasing >> but we also I mean we have to have the >> but we also I mean we have to have the >> but we also I mean we have to have the discussion on an emotional level of discussion on an emotional level of discussion on an emotional level of whether it's emasculating to men whether it's emasculating to men whether it's emasculating to men ultimately and also the testosterone ultimately and also the testosterone ultimately and also the testosterone discussion there is an inverse discussion there is an inverse discussion there is an inverse relationship that um oxytocin and relationship that um oxytocin and relationship that um oxytocin and testoster and testosterone have. So the testoster and testosterone have. So the testoster and testosterone have. So the higher the testosterone levels the lower higher the testosterone levels the lower higher the testosterone levels the lower the oxytocin the higher the oxytocin the the oxytocin the higher the oxytocin the the oxytocin the higher the oxytocin the lower the testosterone. So there's a lot lower the testosterone. So there's a lot lower the testosterone. So there's a lot of research going on also because the of research going on also because the of research going on also because the higher the investment in nurturing, the higher the investment in nurturing, the higher the investment in nurturing, the lower the investment in mating. That's lower the investment in mating. That's lower the investment in mating. That's just a mamalian kind of concept which just a mamalian kind of concept which just a mamalian kind of concept which goes down is that father who's been goes down is that father who's been goes down is that father who's been nurturing that baby all day and that nurturing that baby all day and that nurturing that baby all day and that mother comes home mother comes home mother comes home >> may not be so because f you know men >> may not be so because f you know men >> may not be so because f you know men have to perform. Women don't have to have to perform. Women don't have to have to perform. Women don't have to perform. They can lie there and pretend perform. They can lie there and pretend perform. They can lie there and pretend and that's the truth. Men have to and that's the truth. Men have to and that's the truth. Men have to perform. And then the question is how perform. And then the question is how perform. And then the question is how does that impact sexual performance or does that impact sexual performance or does that impact sexual performance or sexual desire? You know, um if you are sexual desire? You know, um if you are sexual desire? You know, um if you are nurturing, you know, one of the things nurturing, you know, one of the things nurturing, you know, one of the things that always comes up with married that always comes up with married that always comes up with married couples is she had a baby and she didn't couples is she had a baby and she didn't couples is she had a baby and she didn't want to have sex with me anymore. I'm want to have sex with me anymore. I'm want to have sex with me anymore. I'm like because she had a baby and the the like because she had a baby and the the like because she had a baby and the the mating behaviors and the nurturing mating behaviors and the nurturing mating behaviors and the nurturing behaviors are are not happening at the behaviors are are not happening at the behaviors are are not happening at the same time. When you're nurturing, you same time. When you're nurturing, you same time. When you're nurturing, you don't want to mate again. If you see a don't want to mate again. If you see a don't want to mate again. If you see a female lion who's nurturing her cubs and female lion who's nurturing her cubs and female lion who's nurturing her cubs and the ma and the male lion comes up and the ma and the male lion comes up and the ma and the male lion comes up and goes, "Come on, honey. Let's do it goes, "Come on, honey. Let's do it goes, "Come on, honey. Let's do it again." She goes, "Get away from me." again." She goes, "Get away from me." again." She goes, "Get away from me." And there's a reason for that because And there's a reason for that because And there's a reason for that because she needs to protect her cubs, but she she needs to protect her cubs, but she she needs to protect her cubs, but she also can't mate at that moment. So, you also can't mate at that moment. So, you also can't mate at that moment. So, you know, we are just mammals. That's all. know, we are just mammals. That's all. know, we are just mammals. That's all. We're not I mean, we we have big brains, We're not I mean, we we have big brains, We're not I mean, we we have big brains, but we are just mammals, and our but we are just mammals, and our but we are just mammals, and our instincts are related to mammal instincts are related to mammal instincts are related to mammal behavior. So, how does it affect marital behavior. So, how does it affect marital behavior. So, how does it affect marital relationships, sexual relationships? Um, relationships, sexual relationships? Um, relationships, sexual relationships? Um, I've had a lot of couples that I've I've had a lot of couples that I've I've had a lot of couples that I've treated where, um, the husband lost treated where, um, the husband lost treated where, um, the husband lost interest in the wife. She'd come home interest in the wife. She'd come home interest in the wife. She'd come home and, you know, her testosterone was very and, you know, her testosterone was very and, you know, her testosterone was very high because she'd been out in the work high because she'd been out in the work high because she'd been out in the work world and she wants to mate, you know, world and she wants to mate, you know, world and she wants to mate, you know, but he's like, you know, I I don't want but he's like, you know, I I don't want but he's like, you know, I I don't want to mate or I don't want to mate with to mate or I don't want to mate with to mate or I don't want to mate with you. you. you. >> I want to find someone who's who I can >> I want to find someone who's who I can >> I want to find someone who's who I can feel more, you know? So it's feel more, you know? So it's feel more, you know? So it's emasculating and I think we don't want emasculating and I think we don't want emasculating and I think we don't want to talk about this. You know who talks to talk about this. You know who talks to talk about this. You know who talks about this is Suz Suzanne Banker. about this is Suz Suzanne Banker. about this is Suz Suzanne Banker. >> Not familiar with her. >> Not familiar with her. >> Not familiar with her. >> Um she writes books about this. That's >> Um she writes books about this. That's >> Um she writes books about this. That's her specialty is sort of um talking her specialty is sort of um talking her specialty is sort of um talking about how the gender reversal in about how the gender reversal in about how the gender reversal in relationships has affected marital relationships has affected marital relationships has affected marital relationships overall. relationships overall. relationships overall. >> Jared, spin it up. >> Jared, spin it up. >> Jared, spin it up. >> Suzanne Banker. >> Suzanne Banker. >> Suzanne Banker. >> Suzanne Banker. Thank you. Um >> Suzanne Banker. Thank you. Um >> Suzanne Banker. Thank you. Um >> believe it or not, she's Phyis >> believe it or not, she's Phyis >> believe it or not, she's Phyis Schloffley's niece. Schloffley's niece. Schloffley's niece. >> Okay. Yeah. this feels like a I don't >> Okay. Yeah. this feels like a I don't >> Okay. Yeah. this feels like a I don't know inception or something that all of know inception or something that all of know inception or something that all of the circles begin to spiral closer and the circles begin to spiral closer and the circles begin to spiral closer and closer together. Um I think the one of closer together. Um I think the one of closer together. Um I think the one of the reasons that this is very difficult the reasons that this is very difficult the reasons that this is very difficult to uh to uh to uh to talk about one of the reasons that to talk about one of the reasons that to talk about one of the reasons that people don't want to have this people don't want to have this people don't want to have this discussion is there is a lot of we want discussion is there is a lot of we want discussion is there is a lot of we want to throw shade at the privileged group to throw shade at the privileged group to throw shade at the privileged group the seemingly privileged group or the the seemingly privileged group or the the seemingly privileged group or the man's able to go out and work and they man's able to go out and work and they man's able to go out and work and they don't want women to be able to go and don't want women to be able to go and don't want women to be able to go and have their kind of independence. They have their kind of independence. They have their kind of independence. They don't want to give up their place. don't want to give up their place. don't want to give up their place. They're intimidated by by educated and They're intimidated by by educated and They're intimidated by by educated and socioeconomically successful women and socioeconomically successful women and socioeconomically successful women and they should just they they're they should just they they're they should just they they're emasculated. They should just grow up emasculated. They should just grow up emasculated. They should just grow up and they should learn to be able to deal and they should learn to be able to deal and they should learn to be able to deal with it. And you go, with it. And you go, with it. And you go, do the women want that in their partner? do the women want that in their partner? do the women want that in their partner? How many women come home and want to be How many women come home and want to be How many women come home and want to be ravaged by their partner who's wearing a ravaged by their partner who's wearing a ravaged by their partner who's wearing a papoose and has been bottlefield feeding papoose and has been bottlefield feeding papoose and has been bottlefield feeding all day? all day? all day? >> This is this is what's >> This is this is what's >> This is this is what's >> what's that Thomas what's that Thomas >> what's that Thomas what's that Thomas >> what's that Thomas what's that Thomas Soul line? There are no solutions, only Soul line? There are no solutions, only Soul line? There are no solutions, only trade-offs. trade-offs. trade-offs. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> And >> And >> And look, this is just straight up going to look, this is just straight up going to look, this is just straight up going to be unless some socioeconomic reversal be unless some socioeconomic reversal be unless some socioeconomic reversal happens whereby women see happens whereby women see happens whereby women see family building and motherhood as family building and motherhood as family building and motherhood as becoming repedestralized and the becoming repedestralized and the becoming repedestralized and the aspirational thing to do. And also we aspirational thing to do. And also we aspirational thing to do. And also we put the safeguards in place to mean that put the safeguards in place to mean that put the safeguards in place to mean that they don't have the concern of being they don't have the concern of being they don't have the concern of being left being financially in dependent left being financially in dependent left being financially in dependent because they can't be independent. Like because they can't be independent. Like because they can't be independent. Like a million things needs to happen. a million things needs to happen. a million things needs to happen. I don't think that that's going to I don't think that that's going to I don't think that that's going to occur. So, increasingly this is going to occur. So, increasingly this is going to occur. So, increasingly this is going to happen. But the denial of the fact that happen. But the denial of the fact that happen. But the denial of the fact that there are some [ __ ] tradeoffs in this there are some [ __ ] tradeoffs in this there are some [ __ ] tradeoffs in this where where where >> that's that's really the word, the >> that's that's really the word, the >> that's that's really the word, the tradeoffs. And are we really willing to tradeoffs. And are we really willing to tradeoffs. And are we really willing to talk about the trade-offs? Are we talk about the trade-offs? Are we talk about the trade-offs? Are we willing to is it so uncomfortable to willing to is it so uncomfortable to willing to is it so uncomfortable to talk about them that we won't talk about talk about them that we won't talk about talk about them that we won't talk about them? Because if you don't, you know, um them? Because if you don't, you know, um them? Because if you don't, you know, um Fred Rogers, Mr. Rogers Neighborhood, I Fred Rogers, Mr. Rogers Neighborhood, I Fred Rogers, Mr. Rogers Neighborhood, I don't know you're from, uh the UK, but don't know you're from, uh the UK, but don't know you're from, uh the UK, but Mr. Rogers Neighborhood was a big he was Mr. Rogers Neighborhood was a big he was Mr. Rogers Neighborhood was a big he was a minister who had a public television a minister who had a public television a minister who had a public television children's show which was the most children's show which was the most children's show which was the most psychological show on public television psychological show on public television psychological show on public television that basically he was the first person that basically he was the first person that basically he was the first person to treat children in a sensitive way and to treat children in a sensitive way and to treat children in a sensitive way and talk to them like sensitive human beings talk to them like sensitive human beings talk to them like sensitive human beings and not treat them like objects. and he and not treat them like objects. and he and not treat them like objects. and he said he went in front of PBS when he was said he went in front of PBS when he was said he went in front of PBS when he was trying to save PBS and the funding for trying to save PBS and the funding for trying to save PBS and the funding for it many years ago and he said you know it many years ago and he said you know it many years ago and he said you know what I do is I help to educate parents what I do is I help to educate parents what I do is I help to educate parents and children that when feelings are and children that when feelings are and children that when feelings are mentionable they're manageable so for mentionable they're manageable so for mentionable they're manageable so for some reason we've lost sight of that some reason we've lost sight of that some reason we've lost sight of that that things that are mentionable are that things that are mentionable are that things that are mentionable are manageable that we can work through manageable that we can work through manageable that we can work through conflicts if we mention them and talk conflicts if we mention them and talk conflicts if we mention them and talk about them by sweeping them under the about them by sweeping them under the about them by sweeping them under the carpet and not talking them about them carpet and not talking them about them carpet and not talking them about them because it's not politically correct to because it's not politically correct to because it's not politically correct to talk about them is not going to make talk about them is not going to make talk about them is not going to make them go away. It actually makes them them go away. It actually makes them them go away. It actually makes them hide in very deep and dark places and hide in very deep and dark places and hide in very deep and dark places and cause things like divorce or mental cause things like divorce or mental cause things like divorce or mental health issues or you know no we have to health issues or you know no we have to health issues or you know no we have to talk about these things and we have to talk about these things and we have to talk about these things and we have to talk about the tradeoffs. talk about the tradeoffs. talk about the tradeoffs. >> You have mentioned and we've spoken a >> You have mentioned and we've spoken a >> You have mentioned and we've spoken a lot about the physical presence. lot about the physical presence. lot about the physical presence. >> You keep saying another word as well >> You keep saying another word as well >> You keep saying another word as well which is emotional presence. which is emotional presence. which is emotional presence. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> What's that? What's what is emotional >> What's that? What's what is emotional >> What's that? What's what is emotional attunement in this context? How attunement in this context? How attunement in this context? How important is that? What's the role it important is that? What's the role it important is that? What's the role it plays? plays? plays? >> Well, you need both. So, you know, this >> Well, you need both. So, you know, this >> Well, you need both. So, you know, this whole idea of quality time is a ruse and whole idea of quality time is a ruse and whole idea of quality time is a ruse and it's just that it's not it's not a real it's just that it's not it's not a real it's just that it's not it's not a real thing. It was made up to justify parents thing. It was made up to justify parents thing. It was made up to justify parents absence. Um, children need you are their absence. Um, children need you are their absence. Um, children need you are their digestive system. You have to be there digestive system. You have to be there digestive system. You have to be there throughout the day or somebody has to be throughout the day or somebody has to be throughout the day or somebody has to be there throughout the day that they there throughout the day that they there throughout the day that they really trust and feel secure with who is really trust and feel secure with who is really trust and feel secure with who is their primary person to process, to their primary person to process, to their primary person to process, to digest, right? like a stomach, like a digest, right? like a stomach, like a digest, right? like a stomach, like a kidney, like a li like to digest. And I kidney, like a li like to digest. And I kidney, like a li like to digest. And I think that we have stopped thinking think that we have stopped thinking think that we have stopped thinking about parents presence as something that about parents presence as something that about parents presence as something that is consistent because it didn't suit the is consistent because it didn't suit the is consistent because it didn't suit the narrative that everybody should go out narrative that everybody should go out narrative that everybody should go out and work in the corporate world or in and work in the corporate world or in and work in the corporate world or in the world outside. So quality time is a the world outside. So quality time is a the world outside. So quality time is a ruse. Children need both physical ruse. Children need both physical ruse. Children need both physical presence and emotional. So you can be presence and emotional. So you can be presence and emotional. So you can be there physically and to be emotionally there physically and to be emotionally there physically and to be emotionally checked out. It's possible to be there checked out. It's possible to be there checked out. It's possible to be there physically and be depressed or physically and be depressed or physically and be depressed or distracted or resentful, distracted or resentful, distracted or resentful, >> but it is not. And I say it is not >> but it is not. And I say it is not >> but it is not. And I say it is not possible to be there emotionally if you possible to be there emotionally if you possible to be there emotionally if you are not there physically. This is a are not there physically. This is a are not there physically. This is a bunch of baloney that we are feeding bunch of baloney that we are feeding bunch of baloney that we are feeding parents. parents. parents. >> Oh, this magical thinking that quality >> Oh, this magical thinking that quality >> Oh, this magical thinking that quality time makes up for time makes up for time makes up for >> magical. That's right. that you can put >> magical. That's right. that you can put >> magical. That's right. that you can put your child on the shelf like a vase and your child on the shelf like a vase and your child on the shelf like a vase and it's going to be or like a picture frame it's going to be or like a picture frame it's going to be or like a picture frame and it's going to be in the same and it's going to be in the same and it's going to be in the same position development position development position development until you come home again. until you come home again. until you come home again. >> Can can children tell the difference >> Can can children tell the difference >> Can can children tell the difference between a mother who is there but between a mother who is there but between a mother who is there but doesn't want to be. doesn't want to be. doesn't want to be. >> Yes. >> Yes. >> Yes. >> And one who is there but does want to >> And one who is there but does want to >> And one who is there but does want to be. be. be. >> Yes. They can also tell the difference >> Yes. They can also tell the difference >> Yes. They can also tell the difference between a mother who has to go to work between a mother who has to go to work between a mother who has to go to work and who doesn't want to go to work. they and who doesn't want to go to work. they and who doesn't want to go to work. they can feel the pain in that mother, can feel the pain in that mother, can feel the pain in that mother, particularly if that mother shares it. particularly if that mother shares it. particularly if that mother shares it. And that's, you know, in other words, a And that's, you know, in other words, a And that's, you know, in other words, a housekeeper or a babysitter or someone housekeeper or a babysitter or someone housekeeper or a babysitter or someone who works in a factory who's a single who works in a factory who's a single who works in a factory who's a single mother who's raising three children and mother who's raising three children and mother who's raising three children and has no option. has no option. has no option. >> Um, she comes home at 6:00 and she >> Um, she comes home at 6:00 and she >> Um, she comes home at 6:00 and she doesn't leave again because she's not doesn't leave again because she's not doesn't leave again because she's not seen her child all day. And she she seen her child all day. And she she seen her child all day. And she she tells her child and she tells her tells her child and she tells her tells her child and she tells her children, "I wanted to be with you today children, "I wanted to be with you today children, "I wanted to be with you today and I didn't want to be at work. Where I and I didn't want to be at work. Where I and I didn't want to be at work. Where I really wanted to be was right by your really wanted to be was right by your really wanted to be was right by your side." And her children can feel with side." And her children can feel with side." And her children can feel with great authenticity that she means that. great authenticity that she means that. great authenticity that she means that. The problem is children know when their The problem is children know when their The problem is children know when their mothers and fathers don't want to be mothers and fathers don't want to be mothers and fathers don't want to be with them. with them. with them. >> This is this is the thing reading >> This is this is the thing reading >> This is this is the thing reading all of your work. The thing that has all of your work. The thing that has all of your work. The thing that has struck me the most is this weird struck me the most is this weird struck me the most is this weird panopticon situation that we've panopticon situation that we've panopticon situation that we've primarily put mothers in or women in primarily put mothers in or women in primarily put mothers in or women in that are preparing to become mothers that are preparing to become mothers that are preparing to become mothers in advance of having kids. I think a lot in advance of having kids. I think a lot in advance of having kids. I think a lot of women are really nervous. I'm going of women are really nervous. I'm going of women are really nervous. I'm going to have to let go of a lot of things to have to let go of a lot of things to have to let go of a lot of things that give me status and a claim and that give me status and a claim and that give me status and a claim and prestige and independence and a sense of prestige and independence and a sense of prestige and independence and a sense of progress. And then once they have their progress. And then once they have their progress. And then once they have their kids, they feel like a secondass citizen kids, they feel like a secondass citizen kids, they feel like a secondass citizen because everybody else is doing things. because everybody else is doing things. because everybody else is doing things. I was having a conversation with a I was having a conversation with a I was having a conversation with a mother of three who's a good friend and mother of three who's a good friend and mother of three who's a good friend and she was saying I was so envious of she was saying I was so envious of she was saying I was so envious of people that had kids during co because people that had kids during co because people that had kids during co because they didn't feel like they were missing they didn't feel like they were missing they didn't feel like they were missing out on anything. out on anything. out on anything. >> Yeah. And Yeah, that's right. >> Yeah. And Yeah, that's right. >> Yeah. And Yeah, that's right. >> I was like, "Hang on a second." >> I was like, "Hang on a second." >> I was like, "Hang on a second." >> That's right. >> That's right. >> That's right. >> What do you mean missing out on >> What do you mean missing out on >> What do you mean missing out on anything? They were That was That is the anything? They were That was That is the anything? They were That was That is the thing. The thing is the thing. thing. The thing is the thing. thing. The thing is the thing. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> But there is this >> But there is this >> But there is this >> FOMO. >> FOMO. >> FOMO. >> I feel like I'm falling behind. I have >> I feel like I'm falling behind. I have >> I feel like I'm falling behind. I have to justify my existence to the universe to justify my existence to the universe to justify my existence to the universe objectively every single day. objectively every single day. objectively every single day. >> And the fact that in advance of having >> And the fact that in advance of having >> And the fact that in advance of having kids, moms can be made to feel uh kids, moms can be made to feel uh kids, moms can be made to feel uh nervous and then after pregnancy they nervous and then after pregnancy they nervous and then after pregnancy they can feel ashamed and guilty like the can feel ashamed and guilty like the can feel ashamed and guilty like the single most transcendent beautiful single most transcendent beautiful single most transcendent beautiful experience that most people go through experience that most people go through experience that most people go through is tarnished. It's tarnished. It is is tarnished. It's tarnished. It is is tarnished. It's tarnished. It is >> by the fact that maybe through >> by the fact that maybe through >> by the fact that maybe through necessity. Yeah. I get it. Like the raw necessity. Yeah. I get it. Like the raw necessity. Yeah. I get it. Like the raw materials of I have to do. Let's say materials of I have to do. Let's say materials of I have to do. Let's say that you have some degree of I can that you have some degree of I can that you have some degree of I can feather the accelerator of this. I can feather the accelerator of this. I can feather the accelerator of this. I can go to work a bit. I don't need to go all go to work a bit. I don't need to go all go to work a bit. I don't need to go all the time. the time. the time. The reason that you're putting your foot The reason that you're putting your foot The reason that you're putting your foot back on the gas so quickly is that you back on the gas so quickly is that you back on the gas so quickly is that you feel like you're falling behind. You feel like you're falling behind. You feel like you're falling behind. You didn't all of the things that you didn't all of the things that you didn't all of the things that you worried about, all of the concerns that worried about, all of the concerns that worried about, all of the concerns that you had, now you've arrived and you're you had, now you've arrived and you're you had, now you've arrived and you're not even able to enjoy it. not even able to enjoy it. not even able to enjoy it. >> That's right. >> That's right. >> That's right. >> You're not even able to enjoy it. >> You're not even able to enjoy it. >> You're not even able to enjoy it. >> And your kid can notice. That's right. >> And your kid can notice. That's right. >> And your kid can notice. That's right. It's turned life into a race. And so, It's turned life into a race. And so, It's turned life into a race. And so, where are we all racing to? What is the where are we all racing to? What is the where are we all racing to? What is the value of life? What is the value of value of life? What is the value of value of life? What is the value of living? What is the meaning of living? living? What is the meaning of living? living? What is the meaning of living? And I think we've lost sight of that And I think we've lost sight of that And I think we've lost sight of that because if the meaning of living is uh because if the meaning of living is uh because if the meaning of living is uh and the purpose of life is to be highly and the purpose of life is to be highly and the purpose of life is to be highly successful in our careers and make a lot successful in our careers and make a lot successful in our careers and make a lot of money and have a lot of stuff and of money and have a lot of stuff and of money and have a lot of stuff and have a lot of status and celebrity. Um, have a lot of status and celebrity. Um, have a lot of status and celebrity. Um, if that's the meaning and purpose of if that's the meaning and purpose of if that's the meaning and purpose of life for you, then by all means, don't life for you, then by all means, don't life for you, then by all means, don't have children. have children. have children. But I'm going to say that there's a But I'm going to say that there's a But I'm going to say that there's a higher purpose for human beings, which higher purpose for human beings, which higher purpose for human beings, which is to love and be loved. And if you're is to love and be loved. And if you're is to love and be loved. And if you're going to teach your children one thing, going to teach your children one thing, going to teach your children one thing, it's to love and be loved. Is the it's to love and be loved. Is the it's to love and be loved. Is the meaning and purpose of life. When you meaning and purpose of life. When you meaning and purpose of life. When you lay dying, Aristotle's deathbed lay dying, Aristotle's deathbed lay dying, Aristotle's deathbed question. When you lay dying, it isn't question. When you lay dying, it isn't question. When you lay dying, it isn't going to be you sitting there going, going to be you sitting there going, going to be you sitting there going, "Gosh, I wish I was more famous. Gosh, I "Gosh, I wish I was more famous. Gosh, I "Gosh, I wish I was more famous. Gosh, I wish I had more money, or I wish I had wish I had more money, or I wish I had wish I had more money, or I wish I had another beach house, or it's not what another beach house, or it's not what another beach house, or it's not what you're going to be thinking about. you're going to be thinking about. you're going to be thinking about. You're going to be either sitting beside You're going to be either sitting beside You're going to be either sitting beside the people who you love and who love you the people who you love and who love you the people who you love and who love you and leaving this earth with a legacy of and leaving this earth with a legacy of and leaving this earth with a legacy of love. And as we say in Judaism, when love. And as we say in Judaism, when love. And as we say in Judaism, when somebody dies, may their memory be a somebody dies, may their memory be a somebody dies, may their memory be a blessing. You are either going to be a blessing. You are either going to be a blessing. You are either going to be a blessing to the people you love or blessing to the people you love or blessing to the people you love or you're not. you're not. you're not. That is the meaning of life. It is not That is the meaning of life. It is not That is the meaning of life. It is not how much money you make. It is not how how much money you make. It is not how how much money you make. It is not how successful you are in your career, how successful you are in your career, how successful you are in your career, how much status you have, how much celebrity much status you have, how much celebrity much status you have, how much celebrity you have. That is not the meaning of you have. That is not the meaning of you have. That is not the meaning of life. And I think we've gotten off life. And I think we've gotten off life. And I think we've gotten off track. track. track. >> Erica Commasar, ladies and gentlemen. >> Erica Commasar, ladies and gentlemen. >> Erica Commasar, ladies and gentlemen. Erica, you rule. You're so great and I Erica, you rule. You're so great and I Erica, you rule. You're so great and I love your work and thank you for that. love your work and thank you for that. love your work and thank you for that. Where should people go to check out Where should people go to check out Where should people go to check out everything you've got going on? everything you've got going on? everything you've got going on? ww.comomasar.com ww.comomasar.com ww.comomasar.com and I have three books here which I'm and I have three books here which I'm and I have three books here which I'm gonna give all to Chris. I have the gonna give all to Chris. I have the gonna give all to Chris. I have the first being there about zero to three. I first being there about zero to three. I first being there about zero to three. I have chicken little the sky isn't have chicken little the sky isn't have chicken little the sky isn't falling raising resilient adolescence falling raising resilient adolescence falling raising resilient adolescence >> and I have my newest book which is a >> and I have my newest book which is a >> and I have my newest book which is a parents guide to divorce. parents guide to divorce. parents guide to divorce. So and this is how you raise uh So and this is how you raise uh So and this is how you raise uh emotionally resilient children while emotionally resilient children while emotionally resilient children while going through the separation and breakup going through the separation and breakup going through the separation and breakup process. So you can see all those books process. So you can see all those books process. So you can see all those books and buy all those books uh with the and buy all those books uh with the and buy all those books uh with the connections from my website, but you can connections from my website, but you can connections from my website, but you can also make appointments to see me. And also make appointments to see me. And also make appointments to see me. And yeah, you're fantastic. I really hope yeah, you're fantastic. I really hope yeah, you're fantastic. I really hope that you keep going. that you keep going. that you keep going. >> Thank you. Thank you for having me.