Why 90% of People Think They're Shy (And Why They're Wrong) | Vinh Giang

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And maybe it's someone to keep the day running smoothly, find the right producer, or take work off your plate so you can focus on what you do best. Finding that person matters. Indeed Sponsored Jobs gets you quality candidates when you need them most. Join the 3.3 million employers worldwide that use Indeed to connect with quality talent that fits their needs. Listeners of this show will get a $75 sponsored job credit to help get your job the premium status it deserves at indeed.com slash podcast. That's indeed.com slash podcast. Terms and conditions apply. Hiring now? Then this is a job for Indeed Sponsored Jobs. Don't be so attached to who you are in the present that you don't give the future version of you a chance. I love this quote from today's guest. Maybe you've decided you're just not a good communicator. You're too quiet, too awkward, not charismatic enough. And you walk into that meeting, that interview, that first date, and you shrink. And you've told yourself that's just who you are. I'm just that type of person. But what if it's not your personality at all? What if it's just a habit you picked up a long time ago? In this conversation, you're gonna learn a simple exercise you can do in the next 20 minutes to find out exactly what's holding your communication back. You'll learn how to look and sound confident before you even feel it, a three-part framework for telling stories people actually remember, and why the stories you are most afraid to tell might be the ones that set you free. Van Giang grew up speaking English as his third language in a family that fled Vietnam as refugees. He left his accounting and law degree six months before finishing to become a magician. Today, he's a communication coach with more than 17 million followers and the author of the new book, Before We Forget How to Connect. My name is Lewis Howes, and I'm so excited about our guest today. So let's go ahead and dive in. You talk about there's this childlike wonder that most of us have. Yeah. All of us have. Yeah. You have a two-year-old. I have twin girls who are one years old, and there's this natural giftedness that they bring to the world. Hopefully, we as parents don't mess it up, but a lot of us have been taught to dim our light through different social settings, and therefore, we get embarrassed, we get insecure, we lose self-confidence. That natural light inside of us, we start to lose. When you were 14, you mentioned you actually changed your name, which allowed you to shift an identity within you to become more of who you felt you wanted to become. Can you tell me, first off, how you came up with the idea to shift your name through shifting your identity to bring your light back into the world to hopefully communicate to the world who you truly were and how others can do that in their own lives today? It was a very gradual realization because growing up, English is my third language. I first learned a Chinese dialect called Dijiu, and then I learned Vietnamese fluently, and then I was thrown into school not knowing how to communicate with other kids. So I wasn't even able to share my light, if you were to say it that way, even if I wanted to, and I didn't know what other people were saying to me. So there was a series of experiences where there was, unfortunately, bullying because I couldn't speak the language, I didn't know what they were talking about, and then it got to a point when I was 14 where, I mean, my birth name is Kuang, and I was so sick of who Kuang had become that I asked my parents, can I change my name to Vin? And I chose the name Vin because that is the middle name of every single one of my uncles. So I've got, my dad's got six brothers, seven brothers all together, and they were my heroes growing up. So I looked up to them, they're entrepreneurs, they build businesses together, they love their wives, they look after their family. So I wanted to be more like them. So Kuang had a mold, the mold that Kuang had up until 14, the awkward kid, the shy kid, they called me the fobby kid, fresh off the boat, F-O-B, so I was the fobby kid. So I wanted to break that mold. So to me, the ultimate way to break the mold was to change my name. And my best mate at the time, Lenny, was like, oh, it's so weird, I've called you Kuang for 14 years and now I have to call you Vin. You know, it's even still a little bit weird for him today after so many years. But that just gave me a fresh start, because I think one of the biggest things I've learned, and I feel like this lesson is almost fractal in life, is that all the judgments we make about ourselves, they're not permanent, especially when it comes to the way you communicate. Whereas people will say things like, oh, I'm not charismatic, I'm boring, whatever it is that they say about themselves, but they make it as if it's permanent. Whereas the way you communicate, it's just a series of behaviors that are all temporary. So it's not your personality, the way you communicate. People perceive it to be your personality, because that's how they perceive your personality. My vocal coach used to always say, your voice is your personality. So when you meet somebody, they will make judgments about your personality based on the way you use your voice. And because of that, we are so attached to that identity, because we think that's who we are. But when you strip it back, even though we perceive it to be our personality, it's just a series of behaviors. So you could change those behaviors, and it changes the way people perceive you, even the way you perceive yourself. So is your voice a part of your personality or a part of a behavioral trait? Your voice is created through the way you maneuver your tongue, the way you control your soft palate, the placement of your teeth, the shape of your lips. So the voice is created from that, which is a series of behaviors. And you learn that based on the people you were inspired by when you were young. You're modeling it. Yeah, I mean, your kids right now, your two girls, and my daughter, I've got a son too, but he's nine. They copy everything. To the way my daughter, to the way my wife yells at them, she is yelling back at us in the same way. Everything, it's crazy. It's crazy, so they copy everything. They copy from, they see me mow the lawn, so now she wants her own little lawnmower, and she sees me barbecue, so she's got a little barbecue kit. They also copy the way you communicate. It's interesting, though, because I have twin girls. They're fraternals, so they're not identical, but they're fraternal, but born at the same time, essentially, same mother, same womb, but completely different personalities. Because they're taking inspiration from different people. Maybe, maybe, but one is more spirited, one is more kind of shy right now. You can already tell at once. Oh yeah, oh yeah, very, because one is content, quiet, alone by themselves. The other one needs the attention and is more screaming and bigger personality. Now, they're both modeling at the same time, but there's different personalities that they have. But what I'm hearing you say, correct me if I'm wrong, is your personality is not your behavior. You can shift your behaviors at any moment, especially to communicate your personality or your voice or your vision to a friend, colleague, coworkers of the world. Yeah, and I feel that we have different ways of using our voice when we're with different people. I think you might find that, especially when you're communicating, sometimes you adjust the way you communicate slightly to make the person feel more comfortable. Sometimes you might be faster in pace. Sometimes you might be more excited because you're with someone and you wanna create excitement. So I think we adjust suddenly. The issue is when you just default in one speaking method in every interaction and you wonder why you're not able to connect with lots of different people. I think of it in terms of music as well. It's like your voice is an instrument and you can play many different genres. Sometimes some people are just stuck in classical the entire time and then they find it hard to connect with someone who is proficient in R&B. So I think it's just kind of learning how to play your instrument in many different ways. If someone watching or listening came to this saying, I want to become a better speaker, I wanna become a better communicator, I wanna make sure I get my message across for whatever reason, to get the job, to get the relationship, to have better relationships with my friends, family, whatever it might be. If someone's looking to become a stronger speaker, also knowing that this is a process and it takes time to really develop greater communication skills, but what is one thing they could do in the next 10 to 20 minutes to improve their communication skills? Develop self-awareness instead of trying to get an answer from somebody who will say to you, here are the top three things you should do. I think this is the biggest trap in whether it's self-development or communication is that if you get a generic list, then you're gonna achieve generic results. So I think self-awareness simply because you have a different list of things that you have to work on as compared to someone who's listening to this now. So then how do you create your own customized list? You have to record a video of yourself. And that's the hardest thing to do. So scary. Who are you now, Stu? No, when I was- I mean, you love it now. When I was terrified of speaking, I asked someone this question who was a professional speaker. I was 24 because I couldn't stand up in front of a group of three peers without stuttering, stumbling, sweating, being nervous, wondering what are they thinking about me? Am I sounding silly or stupid, being insecure? Terrified to speak in front of a group of people in school. And I asked this professional speaker, it's funny because I met him salsa dancing because I was terrified to salsa dance also. And I went all in on salsa dancing to overcome this fear. And I was also terrified of public speaking. And I was like, how do you do both and make money being a public speaker? He goes, let's have coffee tomorrow and I'll share with you everything. And right away, he was like, if you wanna make a difference in the world, if you wanna make a real impact, whether it be in your career, relationship, friends, family, you must learn how to communicate effectively to be able to enroll people in you, in your vision. And he was like, the best way to do that is Toastmasters. If you're afraid to speak. Because if you're afraid to speak, this will just give you a process and a curriculum to start learning how to overcome that fear. And I went all in on Toastmasters for a year, every single week and I would record myself and it was horrifying the first few times because I was so humiliated of how bad it was compared to everyone else. But that was my original fear. He gave me self-awareness like, hey, do this to start just learning how to get up in front of people. That's what I needed, the courage to get up and speak. Didn't have to look pretty, just do it. From there, I can start to improve strategies and techniques, but that was my self-awareness early on. And then the first time you did that video recording of yourself, were you able to pick up two or three key things that you needed to work on? A lot of things, yeah. And I had a coach also that was watching it with me so it was more horrifying, but I knew as an athlete, I need a coach to improve at anything. I mean, think about athletes, right? I mean, I don't know that much about sports, but I know that athletes watch themselves back. They watch other elite sports players play. Yeah, that's right. That's the same thing with communication. And I think the biggest problem is that most people have never seen themselves communicate. They see it from their own point of view, but they don't see how other people perceive them. And we have a terrible memory. So you do something and you go, I think I did pretty good or I think I did terrible. You're probably wrong either way because you didn't watch it back. So I think the simple rule I give my students, so if you've got 10 to 20 minutes, record yourself speaking for five minutes. And topic of the video, talk about your favorite person, your favorite food. It has to be off the cuff. Why? Because we're trying to tease out what are your non-functional behaviors? What are you currently doing that's distracting people from the message? You don't know what that is until you go and just record the video. So improvise, speak for five full minutes, then review it in three different ways. The first time you review it, I don't know if you did this when you did Toastmasters, but the first time you review it, turn the sound up, turn the phone over and just listen. So isolate the auditory component and just listen. Is there anything I'm doing with my voice that's putting people off, that sounds like I'm unhappy or do I sound bored? You'll pick things up immediately. Just pick one thing while you're listening to that that you can improve. Is my tone off, is it weird, is it fast, is it jittery? Do I seem authentic in what I'm saying? Do I sound sincere? Do I sound neutral about it? But I should be excited because I do feel excited. So just write one thing down for auditory. Then the second thing is, turn the sound off and just look at yourself now. Is there something visual you're doing? My visual tick that I still have till today, if people watch this podcast really closely, is I keep doing this. Really? Yeah, I keep doing that. Why don't you take the glasses off? I can't see. Contacts, yeah, I know, I know. So you clutch your glasses? Yeah, I tend to just adjust my glasses. It's a visual thing. And then the center one is all, now the people are gonna watch. Why is that tick there, do you think? It's a nervous tick of mine. So when I feel nervous, I'll gradually go. Some people rub their hands, right? Some people fidget with their face or scratch their nose or whatever it is. Exactly. Touch their hair or something. Everyone's got a different, again, that's why you have to do this yourself. Because if you watch another video, you'll see someone give you a generic list of three things. Don't put your hands in your pocket. I don't do that, right? And so you've got your auditory, pick one thing. You've got your visual, just pick one thing that you're doing. you notice you can improve on, and then the final one, get it transcribed. Once you get it transcribed, now you can put it into AI. Now you can put it into AI and go, did I structure my thought well? Was I rambling? Did I talk in circles? What are words that I said that added no value to the conversation, filler words, that I should reduce? And then just pick one thing. So in five minutes, you record the video. In another five to 10 minutes, you watch it back and you just pick three things. That's powerful. And I think people will be shocked if they just adjusted three things, you come across completely differently. For example, I've had students who speak naturally, very quiet, and all they did was increase their volume. After they increased their volume, they realized, I don't use my hands at all. So then they go, oh, so more volume, and now I'll use my hands. I'm saying um a lot. If you just removed the ums and the ahs, reduced them, if you used your hand gestures more and if you increased your volume. You look like a pro. Well, you look like a completely different person. You sound like a completely different person. That's how simple the adjustments can be. But they've gotta be for you, as opposed to Googling or asking ChadGBT, hey, what's the top 10 things I should do? I think that's why people don't ever change their communication skills, is because they're trying to find a list that wasn't made for them. Exactly, and you gotta film yourself or get feedback from others. The great thing about Toastmasters for me that I did, this was almost 20 years ago now I did it, was that I filmed myself, but I also had a live audience giving me feedback right after the speech. Oh, a room full of people giving you feedback. I never did Toastmasters, so that's wild. The first speech that they have you give, and they do a few things that you mentioned they already do. One is, there's this thing called table topics, which is at any moment, anyone can give a speech any day, and they give a random topic. And so they say, stand up to the front of the room, who wants to do this? And they say, here's the topic, go, you got two minutes. You have to improvise and have to come up with something, even if you know nothing about the topic. I spent two weeks preparing for a five-minute speech, and I hand wrote everything, and the whole time I looked down, and I did not look up once for my first speech. And I remember at the end, I'm sweating, I'm so nervous, I'm reading it line by line, and then they have to give feedback. Now, they give constructive feedback, so they're not just gonna say, you're horrible, right? But right away, they all chose one thing, and there's three kind of moderators. Just like you said, you wanna pick three things from watching a video, and each one of them said something positive. Hey, congratulations for getting up here and doing your first speech. That was about all they could say, because nothing was good, but you had the courage to get up here, and you finished it. Next time, why don't you pause and look up a couple times at the audience? So it was more of like, give me one cue. Okay, can I look up more and pause? And if you can do that for yourself and be constructive, or find a coach that can do that for you watching a video, it is gonna make you such a better communicator. And it's just one step at a time. One step at a time. 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From signs and banners, to business cards and presentations, Staples prints it all so you can get more time back in your day. Don't choose hard, choose Staples. Exclusions apply. See Staples app for details. I had a pretty famous actor on the show many years ago who had some early success in acting, booking gigs, but then had a dry run for a number of years. Wasn't getting any auditions back, wasn't like booking any gigs. And he said, I decided to go to this like basic acting class and they filmed us doing some scene, right? And they had us do this three part exercise that you talk. He said, I want you to listen to it without watching yourself back. Then I want you to watch it without listening and then watch and listen. And he said, there's something happened when I watched myself without listening to it. My body language was all off. Like I didn't believe myself when I was watching myself without hearing the words. And that realization for me was the thing that started to unlock everything. It was just body language. He's like, I could say the right things, but I didn't own it in my body. It's so interesting to hear you say that when he watched himself, he didn't believe himself. That's it. When you listen to people like Vanessa Van Edwards, even Mark Bowden, these people will talk a lot about body language. We tend to believe more of what people show with their body than what they say with their words, because it's easy to lie with their words. It's harder to lie with body language. So it's so interesting that that's exactly what he picked up, which is wild. And back to what you said before too, I thought it was a really interesting point, is that when you first did that speech, the most important thing you felt you could do was make sure the content was right. That's why you didn't look up, because you thought that a speech is about what I say. It's not about how I say it. But I think the analogy is, you could get the greatest music written by Beethoven, but if you play the music poorly, does the world perceive it to be the greatest music? Probably not. I don't think so at all. And I think that's the same thing when you think about your career, you think about your ability to express love if you're on a date, your ability to express your value at work. You may be the most technically brilliant person in your organization, but if you can't communicate that, are you perceived to be the best? Often not. And the beautiful thing about this, you don't have to be the best writer or storyteller to give a great speech, or to communicate in a way that is authentic. And in fact, and this is the thing that I think saved me, because I was like, I'm never gonna be the smartest or most talented speaker out there, or the funniest, or tell the best jokes, or be able to tie in storytelling so well like a comedian or something like that. But if I can show up and be present, like we were talking about before, and connect with people, and then be with them in that moment, I can fumble around, I can mess up, I can forget the joke, I can stutter. But if I'm able to connect with someone and truly be present with the audience, I can make a difference, I can make an impact, I can connect. And that can be your superpower. Maybe you're not the best storyteller or the best writer or the best, you're not gonna write the best speech, but if you can connect with people and learn how to do that, you can make a real difference. I think there's a saying people say, people don't care about your content until they know you care about them. So I think it's that connection part. When you're present, you care about people more. And when people can feel that sense of care, they connect more deeply with you. When I was a teenager, I heard that quote, people don't care how much you know till they know how much you care. And I said, I have a chance in life. I have a chance because I don't know a lot. I'm really bad in school, I'm not that smart or talented, or at least I didn't believe I was at that time. Now I think differently. But I was like, I have a chance in life if people know that I care about them. And like you said, it's more about our way of being and how we are with human beings, whether it be our way of being on camera, on social media, in person, which connects us to others. There's a sound to care. It's like when you took the time to meet my entire team, there's a sound to that. What is the sound of caring? There's a softness in your voice. There's melody in your voice. And even when the way you were greeting my team, there's an openness to you, right? You hugged every single person that was in the room. There's like six of them there. You took the time to get to know each and every single person. So I think care is the time you took for each person. You took the time to go through the book. One of my good friends who's in the studio, Ali, you immediately called him out and was like, this is where you were in the book. So all of that is felt. And I think that's why when you meet somebody, sometimes there's a negative version of that. When you meet somebody for the first time, you go, I don't know what it is about that person. I just can't connect with them, right? And it's often there's a sound to it, there's a look to it, which then creates a certain feeling, right? So there's a look, there's a sound, it creates a certain feeling. And again, these things can be changed. And often the person that's doing it, that's potentially robbing people the wrong way, nobody tells them. Nobody has unfortunately pulled them aside and said, hey, sometimes you come across as a bit of a wanker. And no one's taken the time to tell them that. So they don't know they're creating that sound. They have that look on their face because they've also never watched themselves back. To have this self-awareness. And there's countless times where I have my students do this and they're shocked that they um and ah. They are what? They're shocked that they um and they ah. I can't believe I um and ah that much. But there's an interesting thing that happens in communication. When you repeat a behavior for five, 10, 20, 30 years of your life, that behavior now becomes invisible to you. Until they watch it back and isolate just the sounds or for sometimes they'd actually need to get the transcript. And then they see the word um 47 times in five minutes. They're like, that's freaking crazy. But it's wild to me as a teacher when I was first teaching this, it was wild that they didn't know that. I thought, how could you not know that? But it's because when you repeat a behavior for that long, it moves from your conscious part of your brain into your subconscious. Because it's now automatic. You do it automatically. So again, just speaking to the point of do this exercise because it will surface non-functional behaviors that have become invisible to you. How does someone learn how to build confidence as a communicator and as a speaker or a content creator online if they don't believe in themselves? If their identity is tied around insecurity and not enoughness? Ah, then you've, we've heard so many wonderful creators online speak to this, I believe. Paul Mosley has a great one where he says, you have to build the evidence that you are the person you say you are. So if you wanna be more courageous, then it's like, I took a page out of his book where I only started taking content creation really, really seriously in 2020 during COVID. You just, like you, have to keep showing up and keep doing the thing, right? There's something to be said about courage is a muscle that you have to keep training. It's, again, with my students, I get them to storytell the first time. They go, oh, I'm not a good storyteller. I can't still tell stories really well. And you just watch them from version one to version three. And I ask them a simple question. How do you feel now? Oh, so much better. Three reps and they feel so much better. Whereas I think there's this illusion we have in our minds that I can't do something until I fully understand it. I don't know. But I think that formula is wrong. They say, they think I can't try until I fully understand. I think you don't understand until you try. It's true. So you have to try poorly. You have to try and fail. Yeah. And humiliate or embarrass yourself or feel like you're doing that. Yes. In order for you to say, oh, that's the way not to do it. Yeah. How can I make it better? Because then it improves the trying the second time around. Yes. Right. So version 1.0 is always going to be crap. Messy. Yeah. Always going to be terrible. And that's just the price you have to pay. It is. And I think when it comes to confidence, I think about it in the same framework I mentioned before. There's look, feel and sound. Around confidence. Yeah, around confidence. So if you think about confidence, if you think about look, feel and sound, the way you look, the way you feel and the way you sound, which one do you think is the hardest one to control? Out of look, feel and sound? Look, feel, sound. I'm just curious to hear your perspective. What do you think? Which one's the hardest one to? I guess if you are not comfortable within your body, then maybe you would say the way I look and feel. Yeah. Because I'm always focused on the negative around how I look. Sure. Yeah, if you're shy, maybe it's around how you sound. So I guess it's about having the awareness around yourself, but I'm not sure what's the main that a lot of people say they struggle with, look, feel or sound. Most people struggle with the way they feel the most because emotional mastery is really, really difficult. So when I ask people that list, generally. So if you have look, feel, and sound, feel, the one in the middle, is the most difficult. When I think about confidence, confidence is a feeling. Confidence is a feeling. It's an emotional state of being. So when you think about it from that perspective, when people want to be more confident, what do they say to themselves? They say, I wish I felt more confident. So then you're reaching for the thing that is the most difficult thing to do when it comes to confidence. Why can't I just feel more confident? Before a speech, I wish I felt more confident for this. I wish I felt more confident before I came into this podcast. But don't reach for the thing that's the hardest thing to control. Coach John Wooden has a beautiful line where he says, if we focus on the thing we can't control, we'll soon lose control of the thing we can control. Interesting. So if you keep focusing on the thing you can't control, then you'll soon lose control of what can you control? The way you look and the way you sound. Because you can control the way you look to a certain point, and your posture, and your dress, and your smile on your face. Much easier to control than emotions. So I think very simply in that if I'm going on stage or getting ready for a podcast or maybe for the person listening at home, getting ready for a job interview, speaking in front of your team, what can you do with the way you look? Posture. So posture, shoulders down and back, stand nice and tall, smile on your face, good eye contact. Smile goes a long way. It does. Just walk into the room and smile, people are going to feel something about you differently. But see, there's a connection there. And then when they feel, you're going to feel different as well. That's right. And the way you shape your face impacts the way you feel too. So if you look more confident, gradually you feel more confident because you're sending signals to your brain that, oh, I'm confident, this is a non-threatening scenario. Or if you're small and you're playing very small, then you're sending a lot of signals that you are shy and that you're not confident and then you believe it. That's true. So then if you look confident and you sound confident, you've got more volume in your voice, more melody in your voice. You pause more. So then if you look confident and you sound confident, it's only a matter of time before you start to feel it. So I'd say put in the reps, greet people as you meet people in your daily life, put in the reps with the small things in a greeting, compliment people. These are all wonderful ways to put out goodness into the world, put out more love into the world and at the same time, practice with your voice, practice with your body language. There's something important here though, as you're practicing this, because if you are shy, this is what keeps people shy. Say for example, you're someone who speaks very quietly. You feel inspired by this. You go home and then your partner has always known you to be like this and you go home and you're like, howdy, I'm home. There's a new version of me. What's going to happen? They're immediately going to go, don't do that. That's weird. Why? Because again, people perceive your personality through your voice. So when you shift that dramatically, they freak out. They go, oh no, something's changed about my husband. So what you need while you're practicing this is you need what I like to call neutral ears, what my mentors have always called neutral ears. So your partner, your team members, they're not neutral ears. Neutral ears are people who have no preconceived ideas of who you are, how you sound, how you look, nothing. So you go and get gas, you go grocery shopping, you take an Uber. These are all neutral ears. Explore it here. Yes. Around people that will never talk to you again. Yes. Potentially. And never go to the same grocery store again after that if you must, right? But I think it's more just about in those environments, you don't have preconceived ideas on how you should be. So you can play. You can play with your instrument. You can play keys on your voice you've never played before. So interesting you say that because I think in the book you talk about how you went to five different schools growing up. Yeah, five different high schools. For me, I left home at 13, and it's because I was in an environment and maybe a friend group that wasn't inspirational to me at the time, and I didn't feel like I could break free of who I was around this group of people, the school environment setting that I was in. Yep. I remember when I went to a new school, seven hour drive away in a different state. Seven hours? Seven hours. I was in a boarding school. Yeah. I begged my parents to send me away. Wow. Seven hour drive. It's like I could become a different person. I could become the person I wanted to become. Because no one knew you. No one knew me. Yeah. So it's like I had this ability to... That's great. And that's something you did as well. I think 14 when you changed your name, right? When did you do it? 13? 13. That's wild. So you changed your name. I changed my state. Yeah. You changed your location to create that new identity opportunity, that new breakthrough opportunity. And so whether it's shifting your name, changing an environment, or just doing it in neutral ears day to day, finding the time to explore this possibility within you. And everything comes back to, in your book, before we forget how to connect your book that's out, you mentioned these three things, look, feel, and sound. If you want to become more confident, it's learning how to look, feel, and sound a certain way. But underneath that, correct me if I'm wrong, Dan, it's all about the ability to be seen for who you are. It's the ability to welcome visibility into yourself and how you look, feel, and sound. Because most of us are afraid to be seen for who we really are. Sometimes heard as well, both. Exactly. Is there anything that you're still afraid to be seen for or visible for? Even with 17 million followers, billions of views every single year, thousands of students, what are you most afraid to be seen for? I think sometimes when you teach this craft, there's this expectation that you are always perfect at it. And I'm afraid to be seen for the times where I still fail with the very skill that I teach at home. When my wife and I have an argument, and I lose my temper, and I am louder than I should be, and when my kids come to me and they're asking to play, and I'm not as playful with my voice, and I'm not doing some of the things I said because it's been a long day at work and dad's just gotten home, I'm definitely afraid of that. But I'm learning that trying to be that perfect person who always communicates perfectly then creates this pressure for yourself. And then you're also not making yourself relatable. So I think I'm on the journey of learning how to share more of those moments as opposed to... Because my students always ask me, is that how you always talk at home? And it's like, no, no, that's not how I always talk. It isn't. It's exhausting and my wife won't handle it because she'll just go, just dial it down. Just dial it down. Stop performing. That's right. Do you ever feel like you're performing in your personal life because you're not performing in your business life, but you're always teaching in a certain way and feel like you need to be on? Do you feel like you can turn it off at home? I feel like I can, especially at home, just because the person I'm married to, she doesn't handle that. She doesn't like that. Really? Yeah. Yeah. My wife is... Pei Wen is such a boss. What does she say when she feels like you're maybe performing? Early on in our relationship. We had that. I don't do that anymore because I learned very early on. Because you were doing magic with her every day. Yeah. Yeah, I did. I did magic to try to pick her up. But I think for her, it's, you don't have to do that. You don't have to do that with me. You know? And it's something simple as that, that would get, oh yeah, I'm... It's not magician Vin. It's not communication coach Vin. I'm actually, I'm your boyfriend. I'm your husband. I'm your partner. Now, here's a question for you. Okay. If she's saying you don't have to do that with me, do you have to do that with anyone else? I think there are times where you have to learn to play your song beautifully because I've already played my song beautifully for her multiple times, being able to communicate my value as a man. And after you've been able to do that, continuing to do that in a way is good. But for her, it's like with the magic, I thought that magic was something that was the main value for me. I thought that's all my value was. So, I kept trying to do magic. It was your gift and talent. Yeah. And then she goes, I actually love you. I don't love the magic. I think that's the most beautiful part of my wife is that she loved me for me. And I think for the longest time I hide behind, maybe it was the magic. Maybe sometimes it was the performance. But I feel like it's still very important because let's give an example here. If I'm being booked to do a presentation and a keynote, every moment of that keynote, I'm on stage. I believe, because I'm speaking at an event later this month, 2,500 people, I'm on stage for 30 minutes. If people have flown from all over the world to see me, I want maximum value per minute for those people. Because I had this one lady, I still remember this. I was in Texas. I did a gig in Dallas. And at the end of the event, I spoke for an hour. I got off stage. There was a lady waiting for me and she did not look impressed. And I was like, oh no, she's going to give me some really negative feedback. And she came up to me and she said, you took 1,500 hours of life just now. Wow. Because I spoke for an hour, 1,500 people. I did the math. I was like, wow. She goes, you took 1,500 hours of life. And then she said with a neutral face, you did good, good young man. Oh, that's good. I was like, oh, I wish you told your face that before you told me. But that's always instilled in me. When I'm on stage, I have this sacred time that I have to be able to deliver the best I can. But don't you have that sacred time every moment with a human being? I think you do. Yes, I believe you do. But then there are different levels of performance that I think you do need to bring. Because there's this rule in the world of theater that I learned too, and it's that be as big as the room. So if the room is just you and me now, if I start to bring this version of me, it's a bit too much. Yeah, it's a bit too much, right? But I think there's different versions of ourselves. And sometimes we have friends who bring too much, and then we say, oh, that's performative. And then we sometimes have people in our lives who don't bring much at all. And we go, oh, well, they don't really care. They don't want to be there. So there is something to be said about being as big as the room. Play to the room. Play the song the room needs. I feel that's what's important. And you can't do that unless you've explored your instrument fully. So that's what my wife is saying to me. She goes, you don't need to do that. Because I just came home from teaching a class of 400 people, and I haven't switched gears yet. And I go, yeah, you're not teaching a class. Because she likes a particular song played a certain way. So you're not able to be dynamic in these different areas of your life if you haven't explored your voice. That's why in my book, I push people to explore your voice and play all the different notes and try playing all the different notes. That way, when you're in a specific conversation, you can play the notes that's required to help the person and connect with the person that's in front of you. My friend, I hope you're enjoying this episode. And the School of Greatness drops new conversations every Monday, Wednesday, and Friday around money, mindset, healing, manifestation, and relationships. And if you're not yet following the show, then you're missing all of them. Please tap the follow button right now, and you'll get notified the moment every new episode drops because the next one might be exactly what you need. Now let's get back to the conversation. At work, greatness sometimes starts with a pile of meeting notes here, follow-up questions there. But that's okay, because chat GPT work, a new way to work in chat GPT, can organize multi-step projects and help you make progress while staying in control. Chat GPT work can use your apps, connected tools, and files to create things like landing pages, trackers, internal tools, even web apps. Say your team has a new product concept. Use chat GPT work to review customer feedback, pull themes, and draft a prototype. Maybe there's a planning doc that chat GPT work can organize into owners, next steps, and a shareable status update. Make it even more specialized by installing specific plugins like Google Drive or Microsoft Teams. 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Because at the end of the day, if something tastes good, you're going to want to keep eating it. Stars and Honey protein bars are now available at starsandhoney.com or Target stores nationwide. Order online or grab a box on your next Target run. This podcast is brought to you by Aura. Everyone has advice about your health, early mornings, more exercise, but Aura Ring helps you figure out what's exactly working for you. And more isn't always the answer. It tracks your sleep, stress, activity, and more. The Aura app brings it together so you can spot patterns and see how you're recovering. Say you've been going to bed early or taking time to unwind. You can see what changes in your data over time. And the more you understand about your body, the better you can live in it. Learn more at auraring.com. Wear your best life with Aura. What's the note within your song that you're afraid to sing? The note that I'm afraid to sing. Or do you feel like you've explored all the notes in your voice? I'm afraid to play songs That sometimes have a lot of pain associated with it You mean songs of love healing? Yeah, you should you opening up? Yeah about how you're feeling around loss or grief or sadness Yeah, why is that because sometimes the emotions are still too strong. Yeah, and I Think I I learned a lot about this from Brene in that or like all the content I create I love Having fun with my team. I love being optimistic. I love being playful I love wit and then as I came across the content from Brene, I started to learn How important it is for us to explore the vulnerable notes? Play songs that make us feel more than just laugh more than just humor So I think I I'm afraid of those parts still really I am still hesitant Are you hesitating because you haven't healed certain parts of the those feelings or those memories or is it because you're afraid how you'll be Perceived by others when you communicate or is more you're afraid that you won't be able to Navigate the emotions when you communicate. I think all of it. Uh-huh. I feel all of it It's it's like when I when I was writing the book I I tried to go to those places and it was really hard even to write really yeah You felt we felt really hard to write You know it it's again. It's songs that I often don't play. Mm-hmm What would your life look like if you're able to play all those songs that you're afraid of? I? Think it would help People have a more rounded view of who I am as a person. I Think it would help me feel more healed because I think when you get to share them It's a release valve You know, I I don't know if you've ever done that but I feel like it's not a lot. Yeah. Yeah, I feel like a lot Release valve. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah allows you to release some of that. Whereas I I grew up in a family my my dad and his brothers they They're refugees from Vietnam so my modeling was Hold it all in and walk it off. You'll be right Stuff it down. Yeah, sweep it under the rug. It's why I had no facial expressions in high school. Really? I just didn't move my face because my dad the first book I was given by one of my uncle's was It was thick-faced black heart how to do business which shattered you are war Wow Yes, I and my just showed no expression. You weren't joyful angry happy sad. You're just neutral My theater coach when I was young my theater teachers used to call me stone face Because I'm kind of dead. Yeah, and I wasn't doing drugs, but I Like I really well, I I I saw that growing up so I just model. Yeah, of course. I just modeled it so I think I did that physically and I also did that emotionally and I did that, you know, and as I started to learn to Share these things more with you know, just my wife or my close friends He's done a lot of it. Mm-hmm. I do think What I do show the world though is probably missing to a degree that part of me. How much do you feel like? Yeah, what percentage of you have you yet to share with the world or your community? Mm-hmm That you're most afraid of it's probably about 10 15 percent of me Yeah, that's probably about 10 to 15 percent interesting. Yeah, how about you? Helps You've done too. You've done a lot of efforts. I've done a lot. I've done a lot of Healing work and a lot of revealing myself To my friends to my family to my community About a decade ago. I started that journey I wrote a whole book called the mask of masculinity which is about opening up about all my vulnerabilities and and the the traumas essentially that men trapped themselves behind To try to put on a happy face or to keep going and kind of how our society Encourages this in a lot of ways and the pain it causes within men and all human beings who hold on to their emotions So tightly don't release them and it's a continual journey of Releasing and healing. It's not like I'm healed and I'm perfect forever. It's an ongoing journey. Hmm, but Where do you believe you could be? By letting go of that 10 15 percent whether it be with your intimate community Coach a therapist. Yeah, the greater community. Hmm What could you become and what impact did you have on the people around you to be truly seen? Yeah and celebrated and accepted for who you are that you talk about in your book Yeah, not just how you show up and perform. Well, I mean, I think the the first thing is There'd be release. Mm-hmm. I Think you know stress. Do you feel overwhelmed tightness? I feel These are the thoughts, you know, sometimes you you hear people say well, hey what's keeping you up at night, you know And and for me, it's it's not intense But maybe once a quarter in my life when you have those moments where you reflect these thoughts come up You know and and I'm curious to ask you this because when you started sharing that What did it do for you? And what did you find it did for your audience? What did you find? How did that help well first I was terrified I thought my life was over I thought my when you shared it before I shared it I was like My business is gonna be done. No one's gonna follow me. Everyone's gonna make fun of me because you're gonna share it Yes, I was like my everything's over. Yeah, and I was like am I ready for this? Yeah, cuz I'd never seen this was 10 years ago 11 years ago. I never seen another man open up about Sexual abuse and trauma and My brother was in prison for many years and domestic violence with my parents and leaving home at 13 Like I just didn't see other men who looked like me. Yeah talking like that Mm-hmm. So I was like, oh no one accepted me when I was a kid when I would do the littlest things to show You know something so if I actually revealed myself Everyone's gonna hate me. Everyone's gonna like distance themselves from me. No one's gonna like me love me be my friend I'm gonna be poor forever. Mm-hmm, but I was like if this is the price of Peace of me having peace and if I can impact one human being from letting go of their pain Then it's worth it for me to lose everything else because then at least I'll be free. Mm-hmm That process has given me a lot more freedom now So my future self is thanking me for me 10 years ago for doing the hard thing But that 10 15 percent inside of you that you're afraid to reveal I'm telling you, you know everything you talk about in this book. Yeah be heard be seen and communicate with confidence Yeah, it's gonna unlock a new vein that you've never even imagined that your 5 10 15 year old self I'm just gonna say oh, I didn't need to do. Yeah the magic to prove my worth. Yeah, I didn't need to learn communication skills to prove my worth But I needed to learn how to accept myself to be seen to me to have real confidence. Thank you for that Lewis That's you know, and I I really believe that me Beginning that journey of putting those stories in this and I shared a lot that I've never shared now With my voice. What was the thing? That was the hardest to share in this book that you still haven't even spoken out loud about but you wrote it down It's so weird when you are Someone who teaches people how to use their voice and their body language And then you have to write a book where you don't have any of those tools And one of the craziest challenges in the book what was that challenge and It surfaced the story that I I'd never Have spoken but I've only ever written Mm-hmm, and it's funny because when you're teaching say for example, you're teaching voice and you're teaching the pause How the hell do you teach the pause with words dot dot dot leave a blank page, you know And again, I was just thinking to humorous ways to do this immediately I just went to my go-to which was with right and I just I loved that and but then I I shared a story in my family that you know, my my family never really speaks about I I I Share a picture of my dad and his brothers in the in the book. And again, they're my heroes even though those stone-faced but they're my heroes and my eldest uncle His name's we call him you bet you bet you bet. Yeah and With my uncle see is the second oldest He used to love coming over to my My house when I was young. He didn't have a family and He would carry me on his back He'd be like a horse. I'd call him a donkey My mom's like don't call you uncle that don't be disrespectful, but he just he just and he had this joyfulness to him But then there'll be moment where it's almost like he lags It's like he's lagging and I was like, why is why is he bet running out of batteries? What that was going on mom? And I'd always noticed that about him and then my uncle when I was five, he he passed away and My family never spoke about it really we just never spoke about it God, so interesting and I was I was I was really connected to him. Hmm, and I didn't know how to deal with it and I I remember years later My dad would explain to me that You know these these these pauses or where you thought uncle ran out of batteries it was because on the night of our family escape escaping Vietnam and my uncle was the one that captained the boat and They had to leave on the stormiest night because that's the one night the Vietcong wouldn't patrol so then the decision had to be made in an instant and then my uncle had to make a really really hard decision because The love of his life was on the other side of the village and he had his entire family had to lead Oh, man, he left her. Oh and He got our entire family to safety we got to a refugee island for two years got to Australia and my uncle Lived with that pain. Oh, and I was four or five when he I spent all this time with me I didn't know he was living with that pain, but then it made sense in these moments where he'd look lost I mean, I didn't I didn't I didn't understand what he was going through But I knew there was something wrong because my dad never did that my other uncles but no, I know and I knew ever did that but he had these moments where he did look and look at a wall and and there'd be There'd be nothing. I talked to him, but there'd be nothing you know and And it's You know, it's something my family again we still don't talk about it today really and Have you tried bringing it up I have but there's so much pain people don't want to talk about it yeah, my family don't want to talk about it and Like I I wonder Why he passed and how he passed? you know my uncle drank a lot my uncle smoked a lot and You know, it's just like this. This man was a hero in our family You know and whenever I think about him, I think gosh, you know, there's a there's a quote in our culture, which is In Vietnamese is look when I'm wine, you know get okay which Translates to when you eat the fruit remember those who help you plant the tree You may planted this beautiful tree for our family, yeah, it's beautiful and he's not here to Enjoy the beautiful fruits that he's created. So sad yeah, and You know, he's wild because there was this moment And like I didn't know like do I put this in the book don't I but I still remember being 14 15 years old being being bullied. I Still remember this this dream. I had this dream of like I was stuck in a two-story building and It was a wild dream. I was stuck in this two-story building and there was no way to get up There's no stairs. There's no ladder and there was a hole and as I looked up in the hole I saw my uncle and my uncle reached down. He lifted me up and As weird as it sounds but that that moment saved me when I was in my mid-teens Really in that dream. It was just a dream Wow and and I remember telling my dad and dad ended up crying and I found myself getting really emotional and crying and but it's just I I I Never sung that song. I never Got to sing that song with my parents I never got to talk to my parents about until I wrote the book and I Revisited those stories and I could still see the pain in dad's heart songs are like you said, I think I think they deserve to be played and While again, I'm still learning how to play these songs, even though I teach me without play. I'm still learning how to play it Because I'm also scared the emotions Right. Yeah, but and and and writing that writing these stories and there were countless other stories That I find really hard to tell in person That was healing for me Even though it wasn't maybe for my dad. Mm-hmm, but it was for me right because I got to honor him. I Got to write about him and he gets to live on The impact is had on our family So so I thank you for saying that because I think I feel inspired to share more of these Not just in book form Hopefully one day I can I can share them more openly interesting. Yeah, how many Moments or stories of your past do you feel like? You're afraid to talk about with anyone maybe outside of your wife. Yeah Maybe you can share some of these things with her or maybe you can't even but your family or friends or your community Yeah, how many moments or memories or feelings of your past? Yeah, are you afraid to talk about I reckon about a dozen really? Yeah, I wonder what it would be to just make a list for just you. Yeah Yeah, not even to like share anything publicly but just to make a list of all these things You know early in my speaking, you know process someone told me like make a fear list and then go all in on your fears until the fears disappear and That's why I started doing salsa dancing as I was like, I can't salsa dance Who am I to think this, you know white guy can go into a Latin world and salsa dance And I went all in on it for months, you know years, yeah Same thing with public speaking. I was terrified, but I was like, all right I need to go all in on this thing that is holding me back from shining my light Yeah, my forever light. Mmm And I wonder what that would be like for you if you just made a list of your fears from the past So that you can have your forever light be shined as well. Well, you know, the crazy thing is I've documented them I have written down Well, because the thing about storytelling is when you ask if you were Can you share a story the first reaction you get from people is what I don't have any right? I don't have any stories, but then you ask them a follow-up question. Have you laughed? Have you cried? Have you felt shame? Have you felt rejected? You have thousands of stories. You've just forgotten them. So I think it's funny because and then thank you so much for Well for for sharing your wisdom with me because it's like I've written these songs down. I've written these stories down I just haven't played them. Mmm, and I don't play them openly. I don't play them freely It's like a category of stories that I've written, but I'm afraid to play You know and and and maybe you don't have to play them public. Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. Yeah What was your birth name Kwan Kwan? Yeah, it means a lot light Kwan. Mm-hmm. So, you know These stories maybe it's just for you just to sing back to Kwong your younger version of you and I think there's there's something beautiful about it, too In that if if we if we make this connected to communication for the listeners, right? I think the stories you document about yourself Strengthen your identity. Yes, and When you don't document anything, then you fall for everything Someone might make a critical judgment call about something about you But but if you've someone says all that person's so materialistic But then if you've got five stories documented in the last three weeks or three months of you being generous Well, then you don't fall to that comment because you go. No. No, I'm I know I'm generous. I've documented that So I think there's a beauty behind documenting the things that emotionally move you So if you want to be a better communicator, I think it's so important to document the stories Yes, and then with with your added wisdom there. Don't be afraid to play all the songs, right? I put so much importance on documenting So I have them and almost not realizing I have a bias towards playing these songs and there is a category of songs I'm afraid to play right people like the greatest hits, you know No time and place setting that's a lot of context. Not every song needs to be sung in certain context Yes, I'm not going to be received if you don't read the room Yes you got to know what room you're in gonna know when to set the context and that's the right time to tell that story and Then it's just it's the it's the stories that you have because I think this is another really important point to bring up to is That there's there's another story that I have where I I quit university with six months to go. Yeah, I saw that Yes, I say right and then that story used to be for me a story of shame Because I dishonored my parents They were on a boat for months a refugee island for two years to come to Australia to give me an education I got to you abandoned. I abandoned that. What was it law and finance? What was yeah Accounting and law. Yeah, so accounting a law. So I Is five-year degree left six months to go? So shame. Oh, yeah dishonored my parents a disgrace to my family I had other Vietnamese families say that oh, you know, what a disgrace to the Jane family, right? So so I felt that you're throwing away all this all this opportunity time for what to be a magician do Yeah, right. So that was even worse like Vietnamese people look at magician and they go. Oh, that's like what is that? Like a clown I'm like I don't know. I feel like magicians here But I feel like it is so I felt like that and that story was connected to shame and what I Realized was that no No that that story can mean so much more than just shame that story can mean so much more than just dishonoring my family That story could also mean I Was really courageous. Oh, yeah While all of my friends walked on the route that they were destined for I stepped off the route I Had so much fear leaving university course. So then I realized that that story could mean so much more right, they could mean so much more than that and It's not just the stories that we share with each other not just the stories we share with other people I think there is a lot to be said about the stories you continually retell and you replay in your own head Because I never shared that story for years because I felt like it was shame now I opened my presentations with that story because I found out it inspires people. Yeah, because I reconnected that story to being about courage Yes, I was courageous. I followed my heart. I did the uncommon thing. Mm-hmm So I I think there's a lot to be said as you're documenting all these stories Maybe the painful ones are the ones that we can share more easily When we've reconnected these stories we've linked these stories to something more yeah helpful created a different meaning around it, too Yes, yes, like I'm sure you've had to do as you've learned yet. I had to connect to something else Yeah, of course, it doesn't change what happened. Mm-hmm, but it changes what you make it mean for you moving forward. Absolutely Yeah, it's speaking of story. What would you say is the Perfect story framework and for everyday human beings. Mm-hmm Talking to their friends. Yeah going to their work. Yeah, maybe being on a stage or giving a presentation What is the perfect story framework? Yeah that anyone could follow. I like to think of it as three parts if you start with a spark which to me is a moment a Moment that has emotionally moved you. So so that's how you know, there's a there's there's a story worth sharing So something that's emotionally moved you there's a spark and then the moment something sparks when you're documenting it right down to who what where? and when uh-huh Super basic who what where and when keep it super simple and this is for conversational storytelling and then you just document it who was There what was happening just so you don't forget Okay, that's all you need for the spark and then after you've got the spark then what's the point of the story? Like why are you telling me this story because I think what frustrates people the most is you go on this massive storytelling? Endeavor and then at the end you go. Oh and that's it Alright and then it drives people crazy the meaning the lesson the moral that's why and it's not not not people's fault Because we often are used to telling a story based on what happened not what it meant So when you want to become a better storyteller the second part of the formula so you got the spark and the point it helps you become more effective already because well, what does it mean and you lead into the point with a simple sentence and you say hey the reason I'm sharing this is because and that just makes people feel so good after listening to a story because I got oh This is where you're turning information into insight that Sentence lets people know we're about to turn information into insight so they go also their attention peaks and their focus starts to zoom in and then you show the point and It could be as simple as that as you're starting The final part of the formula is the link the link is essentially how you can make that story same story relevant in Many different situations. Mm-hmm. So one of the biggest reasons people don't storytell is the I don't see how that story is relevant so for example the eBay story of I shared about my uncle I linked that story To what a pause could hold what a moment of silence could hold that I didn't even know but it was my ability to think of that link between that world of pain that world of What my uncle went through and linking it to the pause and that's how powerful pause can be well That required the skill of linking it's like That's why you see a lot of professional speakers. They can use the same story, but they link the same story to many different situations So again, it's it's three parts So you learn how to set up a really good spark bring it to life and then after that share a strong point the reason I'm telling you this story is because and then after that if you want to say you link the story to courage Leaving university. You can also link that to something else You can link that to the people you spend time with I spend time with a lot of entrepreneurs That's why I also left university so I think There's three parts to it What's the best way to start a story then with either the peak action moment? The peak emotional moment or the moment the insight was learned so start around that don't give me a bunch of backstory Where was the peak action? Where was the peak emotion and where was the lesson learned only tell the story around that? Don't tell me what you did yesterday focus on that That's where the who the what the where the when really comes to life if you were to give a two minute example of The guests coming here today, you know, we haven't you haven't left yet But imagine you're leaving and then you were gonna tell someone hey, let me tell you a story about what I just experienced Yeah before you go on to your next thing. Yeah, what would you say for 60 seconds around a story around? This is an awful story of that. So you anyway because it's quite it's quite a really TMI But I'm gonna tell you we're staying in Pasadena And we have to get to where we are, which is what suburb is this? This is says, North Hollywood, North Hollywood So we're in North Hollywood. So it was about a 40-minute drive. So we're in the van I had two black coffees before I jumped in the van with my tent because you're jetlag more jet lag and also Something happens to me when I drink coffee. I don't know if it happens to you So the whole time the team's saying to me they're saying to me dinner you okay? Like what's wrong? Are you nervous? I'm like no no guys. I'm okay. I just I just I just like just let me just doing Wim Hof right now And they just see the discomfort in me. I needed to go to the toilet really bad dude, so I'll sit in there just trying to clench my butt cheeks and we get to a Red light and I said guys I have to go open the door ran into a cafe It was wild. So Did the business? Yeah, I thought I was cleansed came in here and immediately had to use your toilet again And the guys are teasing me they're laughing with oh my goodness how much poop do you have in you and I said to them Okay, I'm cleared. I came in here with you. I sat down when a third time Wow, yeah That was a false call I went in sat down nothing The reason I'm sharing with you the story is because don't drink that was a spark. Yeah Yeah, that was the spark moment for bit But again, don't drink two black coffees before you're about to jump in right so it can be simple as that or you can bake It doesn't have to be a TED talk But it can be simple as that or it can be more meaningful if you want it to be more meaningful I just it can say you can make it more meaningful by saying You know a huge part of what made me go to the bathroom probably three times was because I was becoming too self-conscious Mm-hmm. I kept thinking it like I went to there was nothing there was nothing right but because I became so self-conscious So I share this with you simply to say when you're going in to do something with someone don't make it about you Become more Lewis conscious Become more conscious about his audience and how you can help his audience Yes, and if you become more audience conscious you have less cognitive capacity To be self-conscious. Yes So you can turn a story about poopin three times into a little more meaning sure by learning how to link it Yeah, that's cool. Right? So so it doesn't have to be a crazy story It doesn't have to be a disgusting story right the little moments in every day Can actually be a great story. No. No. Yeah, that's beautiful. 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It's the best way to support the show Support for this podcast is brought to you by Walden University Ever think what if you could go after what you actually want and make a real difference You're not alone for over 50 years Walden University has helped working adults get the W the knowledge the skills and the confidence to build the future They want if you've been waiting for the right moment This is it head to Walden you dot edu Walden University set a course for change certified to operate by Chev Now reminds me of a you know for many even though I did toast masters for every week for almost a year Yeah And I started to get booked to do paid gigs after that actually I started making money and I was like doing workshops and and Getting asked to speak as a professional speaking as a speaker that getting paid. I guess you call it professional Yeah, I did that too, but I never thought I would make money speaking, you know a year before this, right? I was like the fact that I could go on stage for an hour and get paid. Yeah, this is unbelievable. Mm-hmm but maybe after eight to ten years of doing this and speaking in bigger and bigger audiences and getting paid more and more and Building an audience and a personal brand and all these things. Hmm I still found myself a little bit nervous like the morning of a speech Hmm first it used to be like the week before the speech I get nervous Then it was days before then it was still like the day before and I was like, why am I still nervous? Mm-hmm, and I asked a you know a wiser Man that I knew who spoke in front of stadiums all the time and I was like, how do you deal with this? Like I feel like I I thought I overcame this fear of speaking on stage by doing all these reps and practicing and all this stuff Do you ever have this and it goes it's rare But when I do I know I'm more focused on me than the audience And so if you ever have that feeling before you go on stage, you say how can I be of service? Yeah, how can I serve and if you ever feel like you're losing yourself in the moment or the stage is too big? Reconnect to one person, you know in the first couple rows that's actually looking at you and just connect to them for a minute Yeah, and actually they're the only person in the room and you're speaking directly to them instead of focusing on How do I look in front of this audience and am I saying the right things and that I miss my point like you're gonna Make mistakes. Yeah, it's not gonna be the perfect perfect thing every single time and be okay with knowing you're gonna mess up And just make it about service instead of you. I love that. And that's what I love being about America in Australia We don't use the word service much. Really? We don't use the like to serve you don't we do it What do you think about what do you talk about? Don't dream too big. Sometimes. Yeah, it's all poppy syndrome seems to be a big thing It's getting better, but I still experience a lot of it But I just want to tag on something to what you said you said to focus on one person There's something really powerful you can do there, too You can pair singular eye contact with singular language a lot of the times when we're on stage We tend to say things like hi everyone. Hi folks. Hi guys and gals ladies and gentlemen Ladies and gentlemen that that's group language, which is great to use at the beginning of presentation. Acknowledge everybody. So acknowledge everybody, but if you want to learn how to speak to many and connect to one, or the way you connect to one is the same way you speak to many, is look at one person and use singular language. Once you say, hi everyone, now you go, can you see what I mean? Can you see how this applies to your life? So go from everyone to now you, you, you, you, you. And when you're looking at that one person and talking, when you use the word you, you'll see them visually acknowledge you and nod, smile, and give back, and that makes you less nervous too. So pair what you just said with singular language too, and be conscious of that. Because now even though you're speaking to a room of a thousand people, a hundred people, five people, they're going to feel like you're speaking to them individually, which is a really fun thing to do. And when you can connect with one person individually, usually the whole room can feel that energy. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Because it makes you more conversational too, and takes you out of that, that kind of rehearsed voice. Yes. The, the, the other thing I think a lot of students feel as well, again, it could be before an interview, it could be before you're presenting in front of your team, is the nervousness. How do you actually deal with the shakes? How do you? People often say, oh, my voice is shaking. And you've got to understand the reason your voice is shaking is because your body is shaking. And your body is connected to your voice, and your voice is connected to your body. So why is your body shaking? Your body shaking is because you've been put into a fight or flight situation, which means adrenaline. And if your body has a lot of adrenaline, you naturally shake. So you've got to manage the adrenaline, which is brisk forms of exercise before you go on stage. That's why you see the great speakers. Tony Robbins jumping on a trampoline. Yeah, jumping on a trampoline. It's why backstage before I teach, I'm also doing star jumps. You call them jumping jacks here. Some pushups, brisk form of walking. That gets rid of the adrenaline. Interesting. Which also gets you to breathe more deeply. So you're oxygenating your body because you're exercising. You're getting rid of the adrenaline. So your body shakes less. If your body's not shaking, your voice doesn't shake. So I think that's just a simple thing to do to manage the nerves. And then what you've shared before, and I shared as well is, so you're managing your body, you're managing the nerves, you're managing the psychology. I think if you do those two things, you're in a pretty good spot. Because now you're thinking about the audience. Now the adrenaline's gone. You're much more calm. You're much more composed. And now you just need to make sure that your preparation actually you can deliver. Well, you make sure you've rehearsed and done well. And yeah, that's another big point. You've practiced it. People are nervous because they haven't rehearsed. That's another big reason. Because what's the thing that people feel the most before they do a presentation? What if I forget what I'm going to say? I forget my lines or something. Some people actually over-prepare, and I still see them nervous. They practice over and over again, and they feel like, ah, I don't want to mess it up. They still are thinking about perfectionism. And you're thinking about yourself. I don't want to mess it up. I don't want to look like an idiot, as opposed to, like you said before, being in a mindset of service. So I think you've got to make sure you rehearse well. And you've got to make sure you manage the nerves, the adrenaline, what you're thinking about. I think all of those things all come together. And then they help you get over the nerves that often make you unravel. Your new book is called Before We Forget How To Connect. In your mind, what exactly are we forgetting? I see it in my kids. You probably see it in yours. When you look at a two-year-old or one-year-old, when you look at them using their voice to connect with you and their body language to connect with you, it's so free. My daughter, the way she dances around the house and the way she uses her voice, all the different notes, all the different volume levels, it's so free. And I feel as we grow up, we start to lose notes one or two at a time. We start to lower our volume. We start to be smaller with our body language. And a lot of it starts to disappear. And if you look at the creators that people follow the most, if you look at thought leaders that people follow the most, they've just got beautiful use of their instrument. Because how does my daughter connect with me? Through her instrument. And why do I find her so adorable? Why do I love her so much? Well, A, we gave birth to her, but B, also because she's so connected to that inner child. And I desire what she has when she does it. It's so beautiful. Dancing is one of my kryptonites. So I see her dance and I'm dancing as well. And she's loving it. She doesn't judge me, right? So I think we're losing our ability to connect because we're losing our ability to play the very instrument that creates connection. Because we're using it less and less and less. We don't storytell as much. We don't listen to each other as much because the book focuses on four pillars, voice, body, storytelling, and listening. So to me, it's the first two parts, voice and body. Learn how to play your instrument. Storytelling, learn how to write great music. Listening, learn how to listen to other people's music. So you learn how to play your songs in life and you also learn how to deeply appreciate other people's music and make them feel heard and seen. So when I think about it in that way, I go, oh, that's such a wonderful metaphor of being able to create more harmony. Because if you play your instrument well, you can harmonize with others. Whereas connection to me is harmony. And when I see two people not connect, it's because, man, you're playing different. The music's not harmonizing. They're out of alignment. Yeah. Whereas when there's harmony, it's beautiful. Well, I'm excited about your book. Before we forget how to connect, I want people to get it. If you want to be heard, be seen, and communicate with confidence, you got to make sure you get this book. And I want to acknowledge you, Vin, for reminding me and reminding us that the most powerful thing that we can have is to be connected to our inner child. Based on what you just said, the thing we all want is that childlike joy that our kids have. Yeah, we do. And I think the thing that we all grieve is the childlike joy that we've let go of inside of ourselves. Because we crave wanting it, but we don't feel like we can be seen and heard as that childlike version of ourselves. So I want to acknowledge you for being on that journey, for starting to open up and reconnect to that child that maybe you had to stuff down, just like you modeled with your family. I acknowledge you for starting to open up about it in the book and here as well. And I know it's going to be an ongoing journey for you if you choose to accept the call to adventure. I do. On your own time and on your own choice point, maybe Ali takes you to Central Park again and says, hey, it's time you reactivate that inner child and bring that name back to life in some way throughout your story. So I want to acknowledge you for the journey you're on. Thank you. And I've got two final questions for you. People, before I ask them, people can follow you, ask Vin, V-I-N-H on YouTube and Instagram, and they can get the book as well. This is called The Three Truths. Imagine you get to sing every song you want to sing for the rest of your life, but it's the last day for you many years in the future. And you've sung your song, you've connected to your voice, you've harmonized it loud and proud, you've done everything. But for whatever reason, you have to take all of your work with you, all of your messages, your books, your content, videos, they're gone, hypothetically, in this future timeline. But on the last day, you get to leave behind three messages with the world, three truths. Maybe it's three songs. What you just did there is brilliant. You linked how you normally ask the question to a metaphor that I use. That's a really powerful thing you just did. What would those three truths or three songs be for you? The first one would be to connect all three. I'd say the first one is the way you currently communicate is just a series of behaviors. So don't be so attached to that. Just know that that's all that it is. And don't look at the way you communicate and go, that's how I'm going to be for the rest of my life. This is just who I am. No, no, it's not. You've got this beautiful instrument. It's got 88 keys. It's like a piano. You've been playing with five. There's so many others to go explore. So it's not permanent, just a series of behaviors. So don't feel trapped in the thinking of this is my natural voice. It's not. It's just your habitual voice. Go explore your full instrument. That's the first one. The second one would be then a follow-up, which is don't be so attached to who you are in the present that you don't give the future version of you a chance. There's a future version of you that's a brilliant musician that can connect with everyone they meet, that can connect deeply, sing the songs that are vulnerable and hard, including me, being able to do that in the future, and songs that bring joy and laughter. So I'm not going to be so attached to this version of me that's all about being optimistic and being joyful and being playful, but I also can be in the future someone who plays songs that really hurt at times. So don't be so attached to who you are in the present. Give that future version of you a chance. And then on your journey of exploration, as you play the different notes, you're inevitably going to start to think, that's not me. That feels fake. That feels phony. This is the biggest reason people never change the way they communicate. They change the way they dress, they change the partner they're with, they change their house, they change their car, but they never change the way they talk. Why? Because the moment you go and you explore, you go, oh, that's not me. That's not my natural voice. Again, you lost your natural voice at two. The voice you currently have is your habitual voice. So then in that moment when you're exploring and you feel it's fake and phony, don't rush for that meaning. Reframe it. It's just unfamiliar. And in the moment you think, oh, it's just unfamiliar. That's all. What that does is allows you to continue to explore your instrument. And it may be in the way you use your voice, your body language. It may be in the way you storytell. It may be in the way you listen. So I think I'd leave people with those three. It's beautiful, man. Yeah. It's beautiful. Final question, Ben. What's your definition of greatness? I thought long and hard about this. And in this chapter of my life, greatness is being a master of your craft, but being able to do it with your inner child intact and being joyous and playful while you're doing it. I've viewed greatness as a mastery, but then I suffered for it. I was so serious while doing it. I was joyless while doing it. Whereas I've redefined it for myself in this chapter of life that greatness is when you see someone who's really good at what they do, but they have so much fun while doing it, and they're really locked into their inner child. Ben, thanks for being here, man. I appreciate you. Thank you so much. Powerful. Thank you. 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