WHOLE FOODS FOUNDER: How He Built a $22 Billion Company (Everyone Thought He Was Making a MISTAKE!)

Was there ever a time when you believed Was there ever a time when you believed that Whole Foods was going to fail? that Whole Foods was going to fail? that Whole Foods was going to fail? >> There were times when it almost did >> There were times when it almost did >> There were times when it almost did fail, but there was never a time I fail, but there was never a time I fail, but there was never a time I actually believed it would fail. actually believed it would fail. actually believed it would fail. >> You said something beautiful there about >> You said something beautiful there about >> You said something beautiful there about what it takes to keep [music] people what it takes to keep [music] people what it takes to keep [music] people >> at Whole Foods is like, "Wow, you've had >> at Whole Foods is like, "Wow, you've had >> at Whole Foods is like, "Wow, you've had so many people work in 20, 30, even 40 so many people work in 20, 30, even 40 so many people work in 20, 30, even 40 years here. How do you do that?" You years here. How do you do that?" You years here. How do you do that?" You give people two things. [music] Give give people two things. [music] Give give people two things. [music] Give them purpose, and secondly, they want to them purpose, and secondly, they want to them purpose, and secondly, they want to feel they're loved. So, if you give feel they're loved. So, if you give feel they're loved. So, if you give people purpose and love, why would they people purpose and love, why would they people purpose and love, why would they ever want to leave? >> Hey everyone, welcome back to On >> Hey everyone, welcome back to On Purpose, the place you come to become Purpose, the place you come to become Purpose, the place you come to become healthier, happier, and more healed. I'm healthier, happier, and more healed. I'm healthier, happier, and more healed. I'm so grateful to have your ears and eyes so grateful to have your ears and eyes so grateful to have your ears and eyes for the next hour or so, and I'm really for the next hour or so, and I'm really for the next hour or so, and I'm really looking forward to diving in with looking forward to diving in with looking forward to diving in with today's guest. Today's guest is John today's guest. Today's guest is John today's guest. Today's guest is John Mackey, an entrepreneur and co-founder Mackey, an entrepreneur and co-founder Mackey, an entrepreneur and co-founder and visionary of Whole Foods Market. In and visionary of Whole Foods Market. In and visionary of Whole Foods Market. In his 44 years of service as CEO, the his 44 years of service as CEO, the his 44 years of service as CEO, the natural and organic grocer grew from a natural and organic grocer grew from a natural and organic grocer grew from a single store in Austin, Texas to 540 single store in Austin, Texas to 540 single store in Austin, Texas to 540 stores in the US, UK, and Canada with stores in the US, UK, and Canada with stores in the US, UK, and Canada with annual sales exceeding 22 billion annual sales exceeding 22 billion annual sales exceeding 22 billion dollars. John co-founded the conscious dollars. John co-founded the conscious dollars. John co-founded the conscious capitalism movement and co-authored a capitalism movement and co-authored a capitalism movement and co-authored a New York Times and Wall Street Journal New York Times and Wall Street Journal New York Times and Wall Street Journal best-selling book entitled Conscious best-selling book entitled Conscious best-selling book entitled Conscious Capitalism: Liberating the Heroic Spirit Capitalism: Liberating the Heroic Spirit Capitalism: Liberating the Heroic Spirit of Business, and then the follow-up, of Business, and then the follow-up, of Business, and then the follow-up, Conscious Leadership: Elevating Humanity Conscious Leadership: Elevating Humanity Conscious Leadership: Elevating Humanity Through Business. John is also the Through Business. John is also the Through Business. John is also the co-author of The Whole Foods Diet: The co-author of The Whole Foods Diet: The co-author of The Whole Foods Diet: The Life-Saving Plan for Health and Life-Saving Plan for Health and Life-Saving Plan for Health and Longevity, and The Whole Foods Cookbook. Longevity, and The Whole Foods Cookbook. Longevity, and The Whole Foods Cookbook. And today we're talking about his latest And today we're talking about his latest And today we're talking about his latest book, which is called The Whole Story: book, which is called The Whole Story: book, which is called The Whole Story: Adventures in Love, Life, and Adventures in Love, Life, and Adventures in Love, Life, and Capitalism. It's available right now. Capitalism. It's available right now. Capitalism. It's available right now. We're going to put the link in the We're going to put the link in the We're going to put the link in the comments. I'd love for you to order this comments. I'd love for you to order this comments. I'd love for you to order this while you're listening along. I promise while you're listening along. I promise while you're listening along. I promise you, it won't disappoint. Please welcome you, it won't disappoint. Please welcome you, it won't disappoint. Please welcome to On Purpose John Mackey. John, it's to On Purpose John Mackey. John, it's to On Purpose John Mackey. John, it's great to have you here. Thank you so great to have you here. Thank you so great to have you here. Thank you so much. much. much. >> Thanks for having me on, Jay. >> Thanks for having me on, Jay. >> Thanks for having me on, Jay. >> Yeah, really grateful to have you here, >> Yeah, really grateful to have you here, >> Yeah, really grateful to have you here, and And saying to you just now before we and And saying to you just now before we and And saying to you just now before we started that started that started that I actually received Conscious Capitalism I actually received Conscious Capitalism I actually received Conscious Capitalism at such a pivotal moment in my life. I at such a pivotal moment in my life. I at such a pivotal moment in my life. I just finished 3 years of living as a just finished 3 years of living as a just finished 3 years of living as a monk. monk. monk. And I would honestly say that I'd up And I would honestly say that I'd up And I would honestly say that I'd up until that point thought that until that point thought that until that point thought that consciousness or capitalism were two consciousness or capitalism were two consciousness or capitalism were two separate things and that they were two separate things and that they were two separate things and that they were two separate pursuits. My monk life separate pursuits. My monk life separate pursuits. My monk life definitely helped me learn how they were definitely helped me learn how they were definitely helped me learn how they were integrated, but then when I was integrated, but then when I was integrated, but then when I was integrating back into the real world, so integrating back into the real world, so integrating back into the real world, so to speak, for me to wrap my head around to speak, for me to wrap my head around to speak, for me to wrap my head around rewiring my relationship with rewiring my relationship with rewiring my relationship with consciousness and capitalism, consciousness and capitalism, consciousness and capitalism, your your book and your movement really your your book and your movement really your your book and your movement really helped craft some of that initial helped craft some of that initial helped craft some of that initial thought. So, I want to thank you for thought. So, I want to thank you for thought. So, I want to thank you for coming into my life at a at a very coming into my life at a at a very coming into my life at a at a very pivotal and important moment for me. pivotal and important moment for me. pivotal and important moment for me. >> Thank you. I mean, you're an author, so >> Thank you. I mean, you're an author, so >> Thank you. I mean, you're an author, so you put your books out into the world you put your books out into the world you put your books out into the world and you you don't always know if it if and you you don't always know if it if and you you don't always know if it if it's helping anybody or if it's having it's helping anybody or if it's having it's helping anybody or if it's having an impact unless you hear back from an impact unless you hear back from an impact unless you hear back from people. So, of course that makes me feel people. So, of course that makes me feel people. So, of course that makes me feel really good. Thanks for sharing that. really good. Thanks for sharing that. really good. Thanks for sharing that. >> No, of course. Uh John, there's so much >> No, of course. Uh John, there's so much >> No, of course. Uh John, there's so much to talk about today, especially about to talk about today, especially about to talk about today, especially about your new book, The Whole Story, and I your new book, The Whole Story, and I your new book, The Whole Story, and I wanted to start off actually just by wanted to start off actually just by wanted to start off actually just by asking you, was there ever a time when asking you, was there ever a time when asking you, was there ever a time when you believed that Whole Foods was going you believed that Whole Foods was going you believed that Whole Foods was going to fail? to fail? to fail? >> I don't think there was ever a time I >> I don't think there was ever a time I >> I don't think there was ever a time I believed it was going to fail. There believed it was going to fail. There believed it was going to fail. There were times when it almost did fail. were times when it almost did fail. were times when it almost did fail. >> [laughter] >> [laughter] >> [laughter] >> But there was never time I actually >> But there was never time I actually >> But there was never time I actually believed it would fail. I'm a follower believed it would fail. I'm a follower believed it would fail. I'm a follower of Joseph Campbell's of Joseph Campbell's of Joseph Campbell's the hero's journey and and I feel like the hero's journey and and I feel like the hero's journey and and I feel like every one of us is called to a hero's every one of us is called to a hero's every one of us is called to a hero's journey, but for a variety of reasons, journey, but for a variety of reasons, journey, but for a variety of reasons, most people don't answer that call, most people don't answer that call, most people don't answer that call, usually fear. I just kind of answered usually fear. I just kind of answered usually fear. I just kind of answered that call. I just I got when I was that call. I just I got when I was that call. I just I got when I was studying existentialism and philosophy studying existentialism and philosophy studying existentialism and philosophy in university in my in my very late in university in my in my very late in university in my in my very late teens and early 20s, I got really clear teens and early 20s, I got really clear teens and early 20s, I got really clear about death. about death. about death. We're going to die. Nobody gets out of We're going to die. Nobody gets out of We're going to die. Nobody gets out of here alive. And it's a lot shorter than here alive. And it's a lot shorter than here alive. And it's a lot shorter than people realize, the time that we have. people realize, the time that we have. people realize, the time that we have. So, what do you want to do with it? So, what do you want to do with it? So, what do you want to do with it? I felt like this is what my heart and my I felt like this is what my heart and my I felt like this is what my heart and my soul called me to do. I talk about it in soul called me to do. I talk about it in soul called me to do. I talk about it in the book quite a bit. And the book quite a bit. And the book quite a bit. And so, when you're on the hero's journey, so, when you're on the hero's journey, so, when you're on the hero's journey, you have a lot of near failures. You you have a lot of near failures. You you have a lot of near failures. You have setbacks. You do get knocked down. have setbacks. You do get knocked down. have setbacks. You do get knocked down. But, also amazing things happen. All But, also amazing things happen. All But, also amazing things happen. All these synchronicities occur. You seem to these synchronicities occur. You seem to these synchronicities occur. You seem to meet the right person at the right time. meet the right person at the right time. meet the right person at the right time. The right mentor shows up. Uh miracles The right mentor shows up. Uh miracles The right mentor shows up. Uh miracles seem to occur when you're on your path. seem to occur when you're on your path. seem to occur when you're on your path. And it's just sort of this grand And it's just sort of this grand And it's just sort of this grand adventure. And yes, I mean, we did have adventure. And yes, I mean, we did have adventure. And yes, I mean, we did have we we had a flood in our in our first we we had a flood in our in our first we we had a flood in our in our first year at Whole Foods Market where we had year at Whole Foods Market where we had year at Whole Foods Market where we had 8 ft of water and I didn't know it was a 8 ft of water and I didn't know it was a 8 ft of water and I didn't know it was a we'll call it a near-death experience. we'll call it a near-death experience. we'll call it a near-death experience. But, actually it was But, actually it was But, actually it was turned out in retrospect to have been a turned out in retrospect to have been a turned out in retrospect to have been a great thing. It it taught us a lot. It great thing. It it taught us a lot. It great thing. It it taught us a lot. It taught me about stakeholders and how taught me about stakeholders and how taught me about stakeholders and how we're all interconnected and how there we're all interconnected and how there we're all interconnected and how there are people that love you. Your customers are people that love you. Your customers are people that love you. Your customers can love you. Your employees can love can love you. Your employees can love can love you. Your employees can love you. Your suppliers can love you. And you. Your suppliers can love you. And you. Your suppliers can love you. And the community you're part of can love the community you're part of can love the community you're part of can love you. And you can love them back. So, you. And you can love them back. So, you. And you can love them back. So, even in the bad things that happened, even in the bad things that happened, even in the bad things that happened, the disasters, if you reframe them, they the disasters, if you reframe them, they the disasters, if you reframe them, they were all lessons to be learned on were all lessons to be learned on were all lessons to be learned on the on the hero's journey, on the path. the on the hero's journey, on the path. the on the hero's journey, on the path. So, no, I never really felt it would So, no, I never really felt it would So, no, I never really felt it would fail. I always thought it would be fail. I always thought it would be fail. I always thought it would be successful. successful. successful. But, you know, we almost did a few But, you know, we almost did a few But, you know, we almost did a few times. But, we didn't. times. But, we didn't. times. But, we didn't. >> Yeah. Do you feel now you're at the >> Yeah. Do you feel now you're at the >> Yeah. Do you feel now you're at the stage of the hero's journey where you're stage of the hero's journey where you're stage of the hero's journey where you're returning with the elixir? Is that where returning with the elixir? Is that where returning with the elixir? Is that where you're at or you're at or you're at or >> You know, I've returned with that >> You know, I've returned with that >> You know, I've returned with that elixir, but then I feel like I'm still elixir, but then I feel like I'm still elixir, but then I feel like I'm still called. And that's my new business I called. And that's my new business I called. And that's my new business I started up called Love Life, which is I started up called Love Life, which is I started up called Love Life, which is I think also about it's still trying to think also about it's still trying to think also about it's still trying to help people to be the healthiest version help people to be the healthiest version help people to be the healthiest version of themselves, but going beyond just of themselves, but going beyond just of themselves, but going beyond just healthy food. healthy food. healthy food. >> Mhm. >> Mhm. >> Mhm. >> And the the deeper part of spirituality, >> And the the deeper part of spirituality, >> And the the deeper part of spirituality, physical healing, emotional healing, and physical healing, emotional healing, and physical healing, emotional healing, and spiritual healing. We now have the spiritual healing. We now have the spiritual healing. We now have the technologies we didn't have in the past. technologies we didn't have in the past. technologies we didn't have in the past. And we have the wearables. And we have And we have the wearables. And we have And we have the wearables. And we have the consciousness that um the consciousness that um the consciousness that um needs so many so many traditions are needs so many so many traditions are needs so many so many traditions are integrating now around the world. All of integrating now around the world. All of integrating now around the world. All of the mystical paths, I mean you were a the mystical paths, I mean you were a the mystical paths, I mean you were a monk for 3 years, so clearly you were monk for 3 years, so clearly you were monk for 3 years, so clearly you were doing a lot of meditation. You were on doing a lot of meditation. You were on doing a lot of meditation. You were on your spiritual journey. Well, today all your spiritual journey. Well, today all your spiritual journey. Well, today all that all that knowledge has been that all that knowledge has been that all that knowledge has been available to people. It's so much available to people. It's so much available to people. It's so much It's easier to become enlightened today It's easier to become enlightened today It's easier to become enlightened today than it used to be, you might say. And I than it used to be, you might say. And I than it used to be, you might say. And I feel like of course that's what humanity feel like of course that's what humanity feel like of course that's what humanity needs, right? Collective awakening, needs, right? Collective awakening, needs, right? Collective awakening, collective enlightenment. And yeah, so collective enlightenment. And yeah, so collective enlightenment. And yeah, so feel like I'm still on the path. feel like I'm still on the path. feel like I'm still on the path. >> I love that. I mean in the book, the >> I love that. I mean in the book, the >> I love that. I mean in the book, the whole story, you're very candid, you're whole story, you're very candid, you're whole story, you're very candid, you're very open, and very open, and very open, and you're a different sort of business you're a different sort of business you're a different sort of business leader because of what you just spoke leader because of what you just spoke leader because of what you just spoke about. I'm intrigued as to when did your about. I'm intrigued as to when did your about. I'm intrigued as to when did your curiosity and consciousness and curiosity and consciousness and curiosity and consciousness and spirituality begin? Is it something that spirituality begin? Is it something that spirituality begin? Is it something that was always there since you were born or was always there since you were born or was always there since you were born or was it something that you discovered was it something that you discovered was it something that you discovered over time and how? over time and how? over time and how? >> Even as a child, I mean I think most >> Even as a child, I mean I think most >> Even as a child, I mean I think most children have some kind of mystical children have some kind of mystical children have some kind of mystical relationship with part of their being. relationship with part of their being. relationship with part of their being. Their their our imaginations, their Their their our imaginations, their Their their our imaginations, their their love and the innocence in their love and the innocence in their love and the innocence in children. Always felt a a connection to children. Always felt a a connection to children. Always felt a a connection to the divine even as a as a as a child. the divine even as a as a as a child. the divine even as a as a as a child. And then it was more traditional. I was And then it was more traditional. I was And then it was more traditional. I was raised as a Christian, so traditional raised as a Christian, so traditional raised as a Christian, so traditional Christianity. Christianity. Christianity. The deeper spiritual awakening occurred The deeper spiritual awakening occurred The deeper spiritual awakening occurred when I was like first time I actually when I was like first time I actually when I was like first time I actually took a psychedelic drug, LSD, back when took a psychedelic drug, LSD, back when took a psychedelic drug, LSD, back when I was 20 in university. I was 20 in university. I was 20 in university. And that sort of knocked me off the path And that sort of knocked me off the path And that sort of knocked me off the path my parents had planned for me. My my parents had planned for me. My my parents had planned for me. My parents wanted me, possibly your parents parents wanted me, possibly your parents parents wanted me, possibly your parents wanted the same thing, for me to be a wanted the same thing, for me to be a wanted the same thing, for me to be a professional. professional. professional. Above all else, they wanted me to be a Above all else, they wanted me to be a Above all else, they wanted me to be a doctor or lawyer or an engineer or get doctor or lawyer or an engineer or get doctor or lawyer or an engineer or get an MBA, do you know, be respectable. an MBA, do you know, be respectable. an MBA, do you know, be respectable. And and but that's totally knocked me And and but that's totally knocked me And and but that's totally knocked me off and then I began my own search for off and then I began my own search for off and then I began my own search for the meaning of life. I wanted to the meaning of life. I wanted to the meaning of life. I wanted to understand understand understand do I have a purpose? What is existence do I have a purpose? What is existence do I have a purpose? What is existence about? Is it all just, you know, random about? Is it all just, you know, random about? Is it all just, you know, random chance, Darwinian Darwinian survival of chance, Darwinian Darwinian survival of chance, Darwinian Darwinian survival of the fittest? Is there the fittest? Is there the fittest? Is there a deeper spirituality? And of course a deeper spirituality? And of course a deeper spirituality? And of course that's not found necessarily externally. that's not found necessarily externally. that's not found necessarily externally. It's an interiority. It's it's found It's an interiority. It's it's found It's an interiority. It's it's found within our own being, within our own within our own being, within our own within our own being, within our own consciousness. And the psych- the LSD consciousness. And the psych- the LSD consciousness. And the psych- the LSD awakens me to that possibility. And then awakens me to that possibility. And then awakens me to that possibility. And then I began to read Eastern religions. I I began to read Eastern religions. I I began to read Eastern religions. I studied religion, meditating. studied religion, meditating. studied religion, meditating. Uh and then I continued on that journey Uh and then I continued on that journey Uh and then I continued on that journey and had experienced an ego death again and had experienced an ego death again and had experienced an ego death again through psychedelics when I was about through psychedelics when I was about through psychedelics when I was about 22. That's really kind of the starting 22. That's really kind of the starting 22. That's really kind of the starting point of the book. I dissolved my ego. I point of the book. I dissolved my ego. I point of the book. I dissolved my ego. I mean it I was just part of the one. mean it I was just part of the one. mean it I was just part of the one. There's only There's only the one being. There's only There's only the one being. There's only There's only the one being. And and and I just realized that at the And and and I just realized that at the And and and I just realized that at the at the essence I I remembered it at the essence I I remembered it at the essence I I remembered it actually. It's like actually. It's like actually. It's like Oh, yeah. I forgot. [laughter] Here it Oh, yeah. I forgot. [laughter] Here it Oh, yeah. I forgot. [laughter] Here it is. And and that changed everything is. And and that changed everything is. And and that changed everything because then I it was like, "All right. because then I it was like, "All right. because then I it was like, "All right. I can create to dream. I can create I can create to dream. I can create I can create to dream. I can create whatever I want to create." And what do whatever I want to create." And what do whatever I want to create." And what do I want to create? And that's where the I want to create? And that's where the I want to create? And that's where the interiority, the the hero's journey interiority, the the hero's journey interiority, the the hero's journey begins. And I moved into this food co-op begins. And I moved into this food co-op begins. And I moved into this food co-op when I was 22 years old, maybe 23. when I was 22 years old, maybe 23. when I was 22 years old, maybe 23. And it was vegetarian. I wasn't And it was vegetarian. I wasn't And it was vegetarian. I wasn't vegetarian at that time. But but I was vegetarian at that time. But but I was vegetarian at that time. But but I was really interested in all things really interested in all things really interested in all things counterculture. I like the hippies. And counterculture. I like the hippies. And counterculture. I like the hippies. And I thought, "Man, I'm going to meet some I thought, "Man, I'm going to meet some I thought, "Man, I'm going to meet some cool people in a vegetarian co-op." And cool people in a vegetarian co-op." And cool people in a vegetarian co-op." And I did. And I had a food awakening. I I I did. And I had a food awakening. I I I did. And I had a food awakening. I I But until then I I just kind of ate the But until then I I just kind of ate the But until then I I just kind of ate the standard American diet, a lot of junk standard American diet, a lot of junk standard American diet, a lot of junk food. I was more like a car. Got to take food. I was more like a car. Got to take food. I was more like a car. Got to take it in to get gasoline periodically to it in to get gasoline periodically to it in to get gasoline periodically to run fuel. Long as the fuel tastes good, run fuel. Long as the fuel tastes good, run fuel. Long as the fuel tastes good, I'll eat it. And And so I didn't eat I'll eat it. And And so I didn't eat I'll eat it. And And so I didn't eat many vegetables. I didn't eat much many vegetables. I didn't eat much many vegetables. I didn't eat much healthy food. And so I learned how to healthy food. And so I learned how to healthy food. And so I learned how to cook in the co-op. I learned about cook in the co-op. I learned about cook in the co-op. I learned about natural organic foods. And I got excited natural organic foods. And I got excited natural organic foods. And I got excited about it, Jay. I was like on fire. And about it, Jay. I was like on fire. And about it, Jay. I was like on fire. And then I went to work in a small natural then I went to work in a small natural then I went to work in a small natural food store. And it was like I loved it. food store. And it was like I loved it. food store. And it was like I loved it. I loved I was in a community of I loved I was in a community of I loved I was in a community of employees that I shared a lot of current employees that I shared a lot of current employees that I shared a lot of current values with. I was I was connecting with values with. I was I was connecting with values with. I was I was connecting with customers that were my neighbors, customers that were my neighbors, customers that were my neighbors, becoming friends. And it was like becoming friends. And it was like becoming friends. And it was like I want to do this. And I I remember I I want to do this. And I I remember I I want to do this. And I I remember I went back to the co-op uh went back to the co-op uh went back to the co-op uh Prana House. It it called Prana House. Prana House. It it called Prana House. Prana House. It it called Prana House. And talked to my girlfriend, Renee. I And talked to my girlfriend, Renee. I And talked to my girlfriend, Renee. I think that time I was probably about 23. think that time I was probably about 23. think that time I was probably about 23. Renee was 4 years younger, so she was Renee was 4 years younger, so she was Renee was 4 years younger, so she was 19. And I said, "Renee, what do you 19. And I said, "Renee, what do you 19. And I said, "Renee, what do you think if we open up our own store? Don't think if we open up our own store? Don't think if we open up our own store? Don't you think that'd be cool?" you think that'd be cool?" you think that'd be cool?" And she said, "Oh, macro man, that'd be And she said, "Oh, macro man, that'd be And she said, "Oh, macro man, that'd be really cool. Let's do that." And so So, really cool. Let's do that." And so So, really cool. Let's do that." And so So, we did. And that was the beginning. The we did. And that was the beginning. The we did. And that was the beginning. The first store was called Safer Way. And first store was called Safer Way. And first store was called Safer Way. And then a couple years later, uh, it we then a couple years later, uh, it we then a couple years later, uh, it we relocated it, merged with another relocated it, merged with another relocated it, merged with another natural food company, and became Whole natural food company, and became Whole natural food company, and became Whole Foods Market. And, uh, the adventure was Foods Market. And, uh, the adventure was Foods Market. And, uh, the adventure was well launched at that point. well launched at that point. well launched at that point. >> I want to go back to a couple of things >> I want to go back to a couple of things >> I want to go back to a couple of things you mentioned there, John. This idea you mentioned there, John. This idea you mentioned there, John. This idea that, that, that, you know, not everyone who takes LSD or you know, not everyone who takes LSD or you know, not everyone who takes LSD or a psychedelic sparks a a psychedelic sparks a a psychedelic sparks a pursuit into a deeper spiritual journey. pursuit into a deeper spiritual journey. pursuit into a deeper spiritual journey. It can for some, it doesn't for It can for some, it doesn't for It can for some, it doesn't for everyone. For you, it obviously got you everyone. For you, it obviously got you everyone. For you, it obviously got you into philosophy, Eastern religions, as into philosophy, Eastern religions, as into philosophy, Eastern religions, as you said. It It kind of forced you you said. It It kind of forced you you said. It It kind of forced you deeper. What do you think when you deeper. What do you think when you deeper. What do you think when you describe that to someone who's never had describe that to someone who's never had describe that to someone who's never had a psychedelic experience, never been a psychedelic experience, never been a psychedelic experience, never been exposed to that? What does that mean exposed to that? What does that mean exposed to that? What does that mean when you say I had an awakening? We'll when you say I had an awakening? We'll when you say I had an awakening? We'll get to the ego death part, but when you get to the ego death part, but when you get to the ego death part, but when you say you had an awakening, when you say say you had an awakening, when you say say you had an awakening, when you say it opened it up, what's What is What are it opened it up, what's What is What are it opened it up, what's What is What are you experiencing for someone who may not you experiencing for someone who may not you experiencing for someone who may not actually know what that means or feels actually know what that means or feels actually know what that means or feels like? like? like? >> Well, of course, it's like describing a >> Well, of course, it's like describing a >> Well, of course, it's like describing a rainbow to someone who's blind. I mean, rainbow to someone who's blind. I mean, rainbow to someone who's blind. I mean, they they can't understand it really they they can't understand it really they they can't understand it really until you have a similar experience. Or until you have a similar experience. Or until you have a similar experience. Or what is, uh, making love like until what is, uh, making love like until what is, uh, making love like until you've actually done it? I mean, there you've actually done it? I mean, there you've actually done it? I mean, there are certain experiences that you have to are certain experiences that you have to are certain experiences that you have to have to actually understand it. So, when have to actually understand it. So, when have to actually understand it. So, when I talk about that, I talk about that, I talk about that, I don't expect people that haven't had I don't expect people that haven't had I don't expect people that haven't had similar experiences to understand, but similar experiences to understand, but similar experiences to understand, but I expect the ones that have had similar I expect the ones that have had similar I expect the ones that have had similar experiences to say, "Oh, wow, I've I've experiences to say, "Oh, wow, I've I've experiences to say, "Oh, wow, I've I've been there. I've done that. I felt that. been there. I've done that. I felt that. been there. I've done that. I felt that. Experienced that." Kind of speaking to Experienced that." Kind of speaking to Experienced that." Kind of speaking to that audience in a way. But, I also tell that audience in a way. But, I also tell that audience in a way. But, I also tell people that don't want to do people that don't want to do people that don't want to do psychedelics that there are other psychedelics that there are other psychedelics that there are other pathways that are gentler that can have pathways that are gentler that can have pathways that are gentler that can have they can have transcendent experiences. they can have transcendent experiences. they can have transcendent experiences. Meditation's is good way, but that Meditation's is good way, but that Meditation's is good way, but that generally takes a little bit longer for generally takes a little bit longer for generally takes a little bit longer for people. I have found that breath work is people. I have found that breath work is people. I have found that breath work is very, very powerful and I've worked with very, very powerful and I've worked with very, very powerful and I've worked with that for years and you can have a that for years and you can have a that for years and you can have a transcendent experience on breath work transcendent experience on breath work transcendent experience on breath work where you get in touch with your deeper where you get in touch with your deeper where you get in touch with your deeper part of your soul just by breathing part of your soul just by breathing part of your soul just by breathing continuously, particularly in a guided continuously, particularly in a guided continuously, particularly in a guided situation because you're energizing a situation because you're energizing a situation because you're energizing a deeper part of your being and it and deeper part of your being and it and deeper part of your being and it and your interior self and it's beginning to your interior self and it's beginning to your interior self and it's beginning to emerge and that can scare people so they emerge and that can scare people so they emerge and that can scare people so they stop breathing. But if you will keep stop breathing. But if you will keep stop breathing. But if you will keep breathing and continue to go through it, breathing and continue to go through it, breathing and continue to go through it, this is the best chance you'll ever have this is the best chance you'll ever have this is the best chance you'll ever have to have an authentic connection with to have an authentic connection with to have an authentic connection with your soul. Well, not the best chance your soul. Well, not the best chance your soul. Well, not the best chance you'll ever have, but it's a really good you'll ever have, but it's a really good you'll ever have, but it's a really good way to do it that's safe and nothing to way to do it that's safe and nothing to way to do it that's safe and nothing to be afraid of. You're just breathing. So, be afraid of. You're just breathing. So, be afraid of. You're just breathing. So, I encourage people that the psychedelics I encourage people that the psychedelics I encourage people that the psychedelics might scare them, just don't believe might scare them, just don't believe might scare them, just don't believe that there there any meaning in life, that there there any meaning in life, that there there any meaning in life, that there's any interior thing to look that there's any interior thing to look that there's any interior thing to look at. The interior universe is every bit at. The interior universe is every bit at. The interior universe is every bit as expansive as the physical universe if as expansive as the physical universe if as expansive as the physical universe if not more expansive. And just we're not more expansive. And just we're not more expansive. And just we're Americans here and and and people don't Americans here and and and people don't Americans here and and and people don't often times do these journeys into their often times do these journeys into their often times do these journeys into their interior. You obviously have, Jay. You interior. You obviously have, Jay. You interior. You obviously have, Jay. You spent 3 years as a monk and so your own spent 3 years as a monk and so your own spent 3 years as a monk and so your own experiments, you might say, or experiments, you might say, or experiments, you might say, or adventures in this part of your psyche adventures in this part of your psyche adventures in this part of your psyche are are probably very amazing. One of my are are probably very amazing. One of my are are probably very amazing. One of my friends who always wants me to try to friends who always wants me to try to friends who always wants me to try to explain it to him in rational terms. His explain it to him in rational terms. His explain it to him in rational terms. His name is Alec and I say, "Alec, listen, I name is Alec and I say, "Alec, listen, I name is Alec and I say, "Alec, listen, I can talk about this, but if you really can talk about this, but if you really can talk about this, but if you really want to know what I'm talking about, you want to know what I'm talking about, you want to know what I'm talking about, you have to do the experiment yourself have to do the experiment yourself have to do the experiment yourself because you're skeptical and you're because you're skeptical and you're because you're skeptical and you're asking me to prove it to you. And I'll asking me to prove it to you. And I'll asking me to prove it to you. And I'll say, "I can prove it to you if you will say, "I can prove it to you if you will say, "I can prove it to you if you will do the meditation, if you'll do the do the meditation, if you'll do the do the meditation, if you'll do the breath work, if you do the psychedelics, breath work, if you do the psychedelics, breath work, if you do the psychedelics, you can know there's an authentic you can know there's an authentic you can know there's an authentic spiritual reality that you don't believe spiritual reality that you don't believe spiritual reality that you don't believe is there." It's like that story about is there." It's like that story about is there." It's like that story about the guy that lost his key under the and the guy that lost his key under the and the guy that lost his key under the and he's looking under the lamp post because he's looking under the lamp post because he's looking under the lamp post because well, that's where the light is, but well, that's where the light is, but well, that's where the light is, but it's not there, clearly. So, if you're it's not there, clearly. So, if you're it's not there, clearly. So, if you're asking people to become enlightened by asking people to become enlightened by asking people to become enlightened by just rationality, that's looking for it just rationality, that's looking for it just rationality, that's looking for it in the wrong place. You won't find it in the wrong place. You won't find it in the wrong place. You won't find it there. The light isn't shining there. there. The light isn't shining there. there. The light isn't shining there. >> You reminded me of a beautiful Vedic >> You reminded me of a beautiful Vedic >> You reminded me of a beautiful Vedic term in the language you were using in term in the language you were using in term in the language you were using in the Sanskrit is Antar Akasha, which the Sanskrit is Antar Akasha, which the Sanskrit is Antar Akasha, which means inner sky means inner sky means inner sky >> Mhm. >> Mhm. >> Mhm. >> or inner universe as you were saying. >> or inner universe as you were saying. >> or inner universe as you were saying. And it talks about in the same way as And it talks about in the same way as And it talks about in the same way as the the the the external galaxy we're so excited to the external galaxy we're so excited to the external galaxy we're so excited to explore and send things to space and explore and send things to space and explore and send things to space and figure out what's going on out there, figure out what's going on out there, figure out what's going on out there, but the inner sky is as vast if not more but the inner sky is as vast if not more but the inner sky is as vast if not more and as deep and profound and and as deep and profound and and as deep and profound and unseen as that outer sky. And we don't unseen as that outer sky. And we don't unseen as that outer sky. And we don't have that curiosity or that energy. I have that curiosity or that energy. I have that curiosity or that energy. I wanted to ask you because I think one wanted to ask you because I think one wanted to ask you because I think one thing I don't take for granted anymore, thing I don't take for granted anymore, thing I don't take for granted anymore, John, is that John, is that John, is that for those of us who have had spiritual for those of us who have had spiritual for those of us who have had spiritual awakenings and spiritual journeys, and I awakenings and spiritual journeys, and I awakenings and spiritual journeys, and I agree with you on the rational part. I agree with you on the rational part. I agree with you on the rational part. I think the way you explained that is is think the way you explained that is is think the way you explained that is is brilliant and and I couldn't agree with brilliant and and I couldn't agree with brilliant and and I couldn't agree with you more. you more. you more. Although I think sometimes we assume Although I think sometimes we assume Although I think sometimes we assume that everyone wants to have that that everyone wants to have that that everyone wants to have that experience or we assume everyone should experience or we assume everyone should experience or we assume everyone should go for that experience. And I found that go for that experience. And I found that go for that experience. And I found that I was lucky. I met people who I was lucky. I met people who I was lucky. I met people who had had enlightened experiences and that had had enlightened experiences and that had had enlightened experiences and that made me open up to the idea that A, it made me open up to the idea that A, it made me open up to the idea that A, it was possible. B, it existed. was possible. B, it existed. was possible. B, it existed. And C, it could happen for me. And there And C, it could happen for me. And there And C, it could happen for me. And there was this feeling that I would meet was this feeling that I would meet was this feeling that I would meet someone that I could tell was operating someone that I could tell was operating someone that I could tell was operating in a different realm. They were happier. in a different realm. They were happier. in a different realm. They were happier. They were more conscious. They were more They were more conscious. They were more They were more conscious. They were more at peace with themselves and others. at peace with themselves and others. at peace with themselves and others. They operated and They operated and They operated and carried themselves differently and carried themselves differently and carried themselves differently and because I got to see that witness that I because I got to see that witness that I because I got to see that witness that I recognized that there was a difference recognized that there was a difference recognized that there was a difference between observing them and observing between observing them and observing between observing them and observing someone else. And that made me believe someone else. And that made me believe someone else. And that made me believe that there was another reality that I that there was another reality that I that there was another reality that I could want to pursue. But I think for a could want to pursue. But I think for a could want to pursue. But I think for a lot of people they hear us and they hear lot of people they hear us and they hear lot of people they hear us and they hear people and they say, "What's the point? people and they say, "What's the point? people and they say, "What's the point? Like I'm trying to I'm paying bills. I'm Like I'm trying to I'm paying bills. I'm Like I'm trying to I'm paying bills. I'm trying to survive. Like trying to survive. Like trying to survive. Like >> Will that help me be more richer and >> Will that help me be more richer and >> Will that help me be more richer and more successful? more successful? more successful? >> Right. >> Right. >> Right. >> Cuz they're pursuing a different path. >> Cuz they're pursuing a different path. >> Cuz they're pursuing a different path. >> So you're saying that actually tapping >> So you're saying that actually tapping >> So you're saying that actually tapping into this alternate reality into this alternate reality into this alternate reality has benefits in the material world as has benefits in the material world as has benefits in the material world as well. well. well. >> Of course it does. >> Of course it does. >> Of course it does. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> We started this conversation off by >> We started this conversation off by >> We started this conversation off by talking about, well, talking about, well, talking about, well, uh capitalism and consciousness, you uh capitalism and consciousness, you uh capitalism and consciousness, you know, I I don't know how to see how know, I I don't know how to see how know, I I don't know how to see how those things could fit together back those things could fit together back those things could fit together back then. You know, I remember the you read then. You know, I remember the you read then. You know, I remember the you read the Herman Hesse book Siddhartha? the Herman Hesse book Siddhartha? the Herman Hesse book Siddhartha? >> Yes, of course, yeah. >> Yes, of course, yeah. >> Yes, of course, yeah. >> And and so he did it backwards. Most >> And and so he did it backwards. Most >> And and so he did it backwards. Most people uh people uh people uh come to spirituality later, he came to come to spirituality later, he came to come to spirituality later, he came to it at the beginning. But then he he took it at the beginning. But then he he took it at the beginning. But then he he took what he had learned and he could apply what he had learned and he could apply what he had learned and he could apply it in the in the material world, so to it in the in the material world, so to it in the in the material world, so to speak, and it helped him be a better it speak, and it helped him be a better it speak, and it helped him be a better it helped him make him wealthy because he helped him make him wealthy because he helped him make him wealthy because he kind of had his interior together, which kind of had his interior together, which kind of had his interior together, which made it easier. But a lot of times made it easier. But a lot of times made it easier. But a lot of times people are not interested in the people are not interested in the people are not interested in the interior interior part because they feel interior interior part because they feel interior interior part because they feel like, well, it I don't see how that's like, well, it I don't see how that's like, well, it I don't see how that's going to help me in my day-to-day going to help me in my day-to-day going to help me in my day-to-day pursuit of wealth, fame, success, power, pursuit of wealth, fame, success, power, pursuit of wealth, fame, success, power, whatever that But those things, whatever that But those things, whatever that But those things, ultimately, what people will discover ultimately, what people will discover ultimately, what people will discover when they get those, that they don't when they get those, that they don't when they get those, that they don't really make them happy. really make them happy. really make them happy. What makes people happy, ultimately, is What makes people happy, ultimately, is What makes people happy, ultimately, is love. And uh love. And uh love. And uh having that uh connection having that uh connection having that uh connection to other people, to ourselves, and to to other people, to ourselves, and to to other people, to ourselves, and to the larger universe that we're part of. the larger universe that we're part of. the larger universe that we're part of. >> Mhm. >> Mhm. >> Mhm. >> It's not that money or fame or power are >> It's not that money or fame or power are >> It's not that money or fame or power are bad things. It's just that they're most bad things. It's just that they're most bad things. It's just that they're most people get addicted to them if they people get addicted to them if they people get addicted to them if they pursue them, and then they forget about, pursue them, and then they forget about, pursue them, and then they forget about, like Siddhartha did in his book, he like Siddhartha did in his book, he like Siddhartha did in his book, he forgot about, oh, I forgot as he got forgot about, oh, I forgot as he got forgot about, oh, I forgot as he got deeper in the material plane, he got deeper in the material plane, he got deeper in the material plane, he got lost in it. So I think lost in it. So I think lost in it. So I think people that are dedicating their lives people that are dedicating their lives people that are dedicating their lives to to to to making money or or to making money or or to making money or or pursuing something in the material pursuing something in the material pursuing something in the material plane, if that's what their whole life plane, if that's what their whole life plane, if that's what their whole life is devoted to, they will find when they is devoted to, they will find when they is devoted to, they will find when they get if they when they get it, that it's get if they when they get it, that it's get if they when they get it, that it's not really what they wanted all along. not really what they wanted all along. not really what they wanted all along. And so if you can do these things And so if you can do these things And so if you can do these things together, you pursue your own interior together, you pursue your own interior together, you pursue your own interior spirituality, your own interior growth spirituality, your own interior growth spirituality, your own interior growth as a as a as a person, the spiritual as a as a as a person, the spiritual as a as a as a person, the spiritual part of you, as that develops and opens part of you, as that develops and opens part of you, as that develops and opens and awakens, then you're going to and awakens, then you're going to and awakens, then you're going to appreciate the external world even more appreciate the external world even more appreciate the external world even more because it's beautiful. And but most because it's beautiful. And but most because it's beautiful. And but most people don't even notice it's beautiful people don't even notice it's beautiful people don't even notice it's beautiful because they're locked in their heads, because they're locked in their heads, because they're locked in their heads, they're locked in their own egos, and so they're locked in their own egos, and so they're locked in their own egos, and so they're they're trapped there to a they're they're trapped there to a they're they're trapped there to a certain extent. But once you can begin certain extent. But once you can begin certain extent. But once you can begin to break out or or help that ego get to break out or or help that ego get to break out or or help that ego get That's what I like to say, the ego is a That's what I like to say, the ego is a That's what I like to say, the ego is a it it should be a servant, not the it it should be a servant, not the it it should be a servant, not the master. And once you get the ego kind of master. And once you get the ego kind of master. And once you get the ego kind of where it needs to be and not driving the where it needs to be and not driving the where it needs to be and not driving the car but in the backseat, car but in the backseat, car but in the backseat, um um um then you're in a position to have all then you're in a position to have all then you're in a position to have all have it all, which is to be to achieve have it all, which is to be to achieve have it all, which is to be to achieve the success that you want in life while the success that you want in life while the success that you want in life while having the relationships that you want, having the relationships that you want, having the relationships that you want, while having your own spiritual joy while having your own spiritual joy while having your own spiritual joy because that's what it is. As you awaken because that's what it is. As you awaken because that's what it is. As you awaken to that part of your being, you to that part of your being, you to that part of your being, you experience a lot more love and joy, and experience a lot more love and joy, and experience a lot more love and joy, and those are those give our souls those are those give our souls those are those give our souls satisfaction. satisfaction. satisfaction. >> I was reflecting on this recently, this >> I was reflecting on this recently, this >> I was reflecting on this recently, this idea that the material world is always idea that the material world is always idea that the material world is always made it about the pursuit of and having made it about the pursuit of and having made it about the pursuit of and having certain things certain things certain things as being the goal of life or as being as being the goal of life or as being as being the goal of life or as being the success of life. And I was the success of life. And I was the success of life. And I was reflecting on how spiritually, reflecting on how spiritually, reflecting on how spiritually, especially in Eastern traditions, especially in Eastern traditions, especially in Eastern traditions, whether you have something or you don't, whether you have something or you don't, whether you have something or you don't, i.e. money, fame, power, control, i.e. money, fame, power, control, i.e. money, fame, power, control, is actually irrelevant. It's whether you is actually irrelevant. It's whether you is actually irrelevant. It's whether you have freedom from envy, freedom from have freedom from envy, freedom from have freedom from envy, freedom from ego, freedom from ego, freedom from ego, freedom from anger, freedom from lust, freedom from anger, freedom from lust, freedom from anger, freedom from lust, freedom from illusion because illusion because illusion because you could have everything in the world you could have everything in the world you could have everything in the world and be envious and feel like you don't and be envious and feel like you don't and be envious and feel like you don't have anything. have anything. have anything. >> I've been fortunate to know several >> I've been fortunate to know several >> I've been fortunate to know several billionaires, for example, where they billionaires, for example, where they billionaires, for example, where they have, you know, everything uh they could have, you know, everything uh they could have, you know, everything uh they could possibly want in the material plane. possibly want in the material plane. possibly want in the material plane. But But But they're comparing themselves to people they're comparing themselves to people they're comparing themselves to people that are even more successful, richer, that are even more successful, richer, that are even more successful, richer, and they feel like somehow or another and they feel like somehow or another and they feel like somehow or another life's is complete, and it's like you life's is complete, and it's like you life's is complete, and it's like you can have anything you want materially, can have anything you want materially, can have anything you want materially, and it's your envy that's making you and it's your envy that's making you and it's your envy that's making you unhappy. unhappy. unhappy. >> Correct. >> Correct. >> Correct. >> Well, I have found it to be a very >> Well, I have found it to be a very >> Well, I have found it to be a very useful habit is is when useful habit is is when useful habit is is when my friends or anyone has prosperity and my friends or anyone has prosperity and my friends or anyone has prosperity and success for me to be truly happy for success for me to be truly happy for success for me to be truly happy for them, rather than uh than feel envious them, rather than uh than feel envious them, rather than uh than feel envious of them. I feel like envy is a a very of them. I feel like envy is a a very of them. I feel like envy is a a very insidious trap that spoils the joy of insidious trap that spoils the joy of insidious trap that spoils the joy of life. life. life. >> Absolutely. And and I would say to >> Absolutely. And and I would say to >> Absolutely. And and I would say to people, you either have the choice to people, you either have the choice to people, you either have the choice to envy people or study them. And if you envy people or study them. And if you envy people or study them. And if you envy them, then you don't get anywhere. envy them, then you don't get anywhere. envy them, then you don't get anywhere. But when you study them, you have the But when you study them, you have the But when you study them, you have the opportunity to opportunity to opportunity to >> I like that a lot. I'm going to I'm >> I like that a lot. I'm going to I'm >> I like that a lot. I'm going to I'm going to I'm take That's a takeaway for going to I'm take That's a takeaway for going to I'm take That's a takeaway for me today. Thank you. me today. Thank you. me today. Thank you. >> do. Yeah, absolutely. I've I focused on >> do. Yeah, absolutely. I've I focused on >> do. Yeah, absolutely. I've I focused on that heavily because I always reflected that heavily because I always reflected that heavily because I always reflected on I was in the same way as you, on I was in the same way as you, on I was in the same way as you, appreciating others, admiring others, appreciating others, admiring others, appreciating others, admiring others, but I saw the key part was studying them but I saw the key part was studying them but I saw the key part was studying them and wanting to learn from them. And all and wanting to learn from them. And all and wanting to learn from them. And all of a sudden, you didn't of a sudden, you didn't of a sudden, you didn't feel that they were that far away. You feel that they were that far away. You feel that they were that far away. You felt so much closer to them and closer felt so much closer to them and closer felt so much closer to them and closer to that success for yourself and that to that success for yourself and that to that success for yourself and that abundance for yourself. Going to your abundance for yourself. Going to your abundance for yourself. Going to your point on ego death, I I love that you point on ego death, I I love that you point on ego death, I I love that you use that language. Could you describe use that language. Could you describe use that language. Could you describe what an ego death is for someone who may what an ego death is for someone who may what an ego death is for someone who may be new to the idea or or may not be be new to the idea or or may not be be new to the idea or or may not be aware of how you're referring to it? aware of how you're referring to it? aware of how you're referring to it? >> We're very attached to our ego. I mean, >> We're very attached to our ego. I mean, >> We're very attached to our ego. I mean, we in fact think that's what we are. We we in fact think that's what we are. We we in fact think that's what we are. We believe we are the ego. We believe we're believe we are the ego. We believe we're believe we are the ego. We believe we're body and we're an ego. And so, the ego body and we're an ego. And so, the ego body and we're an ego. And so, the ego is the part of us that feels like it's is the part of us that feels like it's is the part of us that feels like it's separate. Hey, separate. Hey, separate. Hey, I'm John. I'm John. I'm John. You're you. That's a book. You're you. That's a book. You're you. That's a book. This is water. This is water. This is water. This is a microphone. These are This is a microphone. These are This is a microphone. These are different than me. They're not me. different than me. They're not me. different than me. They're not me. And so, And so, And so, we have this great feeling of we have this great feeling of we have this great feeling of individuality and separateness that is individuality and separateness that is individuality and separateness that is it's so real to us that we think that's it's so real to us that we think that's it's so real to us that we think that's actually reality. actually reality. actually reality. And so, And so, And so, with the ego death or with the ego death or with the ego death or a better way to put it cuz death is a a better way to put it cuz death is a a better way to put it cuz death is a scary word is a sort of your ego scary word is a sort of your ego scary word is a sort of your ego disappearing. You don't have that sense disappearing. You don't have that sense disappearing. You don't have that sense of separation any longer. You don't of separation any longer. You don't of separation any longer. You don't identify with your separation. And the identify with your separation. And the identify with your separation. And the metaphor I like to use is is like metaphor I like to use is is like metaphor I like to use is is like clothes. So, I have clothes on today. clothes. So, I have clothes on today. clothes. So, I have clothes on today. They're not me. I'm not my clothes. And They're not me. I'm not my clothes. And They're not me. I'm not my clothes. And I'm I'm going to go home and I'm going I'm I'm going to go home and I'm going I'm I'm going to go home and I'm going to take my clothes off. to take my clothes off. to take my clothes off. Maybe I'll wear them again, maybe I Maybe I'll wear them again, maybe I Maybe I'll wear them again, maybe I won't. I'll wear something different the won't. I'll wear something different the won't. I'll wear something different the next day. That's not who I am. I don't next day. That's not who I am. I don't next day. That's not who I am. I don't identify with my clothes. Most people identify with my clothes. Most people identify with my clothes. Most people don't, but some people do. Some people don't, but some people do. Some people don't, but some people do. Some people actually feel really, really attached to actually feel really, really attached to actually feel really, really attached to their clothing. And so, I'm not my their clothing. And so, I'm not my their clothing. And so, I'm not my clothes and I'm not my ego. And until clothes and I'm not my ego. And until clothes and I'm not my ego. And until you can actually you can actually you can actually have an experience where have an experience where have an experience where your ego is dissolved, you won't really your ego is dissolved, you won't really your ego is dissolved, you won't really understand what I'm talking about. But understand what I'm talking about. But understand what I'm talking about. But one of the great things about it is is one of the great things about it is is one of the great things about it is is that once you realize you're not your that once you realize you're not your that once you realize you're not your ego, you can also begin to let go of ego, you can also begin to let go of ego, you can also begin to let go of your fear of death. your fear of death. your fear of death. >> Mhm. >> Mhm. >> Mhm. >> Because what we are at the deeper part >> Because what we are at the deeper part >> Because what we are at the deeper part of our being is of our being is of our being is the one self, the one being. We all are. the one self, the one being. We all are. the one self, the one being. We all are. So, in a sense, we are immortal, So, in a sense, we are immortal, So, in a sense, we are immortal, but not our egos aren't. So, that's the but not our egos aren't. So, that's the but not our egos aren't. So, that's the thing that freaks people out. It's like thing that freaks people out. It's like thing that freaks people out. It's like I always like to say it's another I always like to say it's another I always like to say it's another metaphor, it's like metaphor, it's like metaphor, it's like when I die, I'm going to when I die, I'm going to when I die, I'm going to Oh, yes. I remember. Here I am again. Oh, yes. I remember. Here I am again. Oh, yes. I remember. Here I am again. And I'm not John Mackey. I'm not that And I'm not John Mackey. I'm not that And I'm not John Mackey. I'm not that ego. I'm not that The body's going to ego. I'm not that The body's going to ego. I'm not that The body's going to dissolve and disappear and dissolve and disappear and dissolve and disappear and but the essence of what we are, but the essence of what we are, but the essence of what we are, the the one being, the one self is the the one being, the one self is the the one being, the one self is there, always. And always has been and there, always. And always has been and there, always. And always has been and always will be. And as as you realize always will be. And as as you realize always will be. And as as you realize that, it's like our greatest fear, of that, it's like our greatest fear, of that, it's like our greatest fear, of course, is death. And you can begin to course, is death. And you can begin to course, is death. And you can begin to let that go. And by the way, once you let that go. And by the way, once you let that go. And by the way, once you begin to let that fear go, then you can begin to let that fear go, then you can begin to let that fear go, then you can really see your life as this adventure. really see your life as this adventure. really see your life as this adventure. Whatever happens, it doesn't matter. Whatever happens, it doesn't matter. Whatever happens, it doesn't matter. It's just like a dream. In fact, I do It's just like a dream. In fact, I do It's just like a dream. In fact, I do think life is really a dream. And I think life is really a dream. And I think life is really a dream. And I think that's a good metaphor to think that's a good metaphor to think that's a good metaphor to understand what we're doing here. I understand what we're doing here. I understand what we're doing here. I Often times will describe it as um have Often times will describe it as um have Often times will describe it as um have you had the experience of a lucid dream you had the experience of a lucid dream you had the experience of a lucid dream before? So in a lucid dream, we we before? So in a lucid dream, we we before? So in a lucid dream, we we become conscious that we're dreaming. become conscious that we're dreaming. become conscious that we're dreaming. And once you become conscious that And once you become conscious that And once you become conscious that you're actually dreaming, you're actually dreaming, you're actually dreaming, you can begin to take control of the you can begin to take control of the you can begin to take control of the dream and you can you can you can create dream and you can you can you can create dream and you can you can you can create it however you want it to be. And once it however you want it to be. And once it however you want it to be. And once you begin to realize that you're in a you begin to realize that you're in a you begin to realize that you're in a dream here, dream here, dream here, then you can become conscious and then then you can become conscious and then then you can become conscious and then you can begin to create a happy dream, a you can begin to create a happy dream, a you can begin to create a happy dream, a dream of love, a forgiveness, a dream of dream of love, a forgiveness, a dream of dream of love, a forgiveness, a dream of on your own hero's journey so to speak, on your own hero's journey so to speak, on your own hero's journey so to speak, a kindness, compassion. That dream a kindness, compassion. That dream a kindness, compassion. That dream begins to change as you wake up. It begins to change as you wake up. It begins to change as you wake up. It becomes a happier and happier dream becomes a happier and happier dream becomes a happier and happier dream because that's the dream that you're because that's the dream that you're because that's the dream that you're creating. I always tell my friends it's creating. I always tell my friends it's creating. I always tell my friends it's like I believe in the multiverse and like I believe in the multiverse and like I believe in the multiverse and it's like cuz when I get to a doom and it's like cuz when I get to a doom and it's like cuz when I get to a doom and gloomer that says we're all going to gloomer that says we're all going to gloomer that says we're all going to we're going to destroy everything, I we're going to destroy everything, I we're going to destroy everything, I says, "Well, says, "Well, says, "Well, yeah, I not me. yeah, I not me. yeah, I not me. >> [laughter] >> [laughter] >> [laughter] >> That's not my dream. My dream is going >> That's not my dream. My dream is going >> That's not my dream. My dream is going to get better and better and better, but to get better and better and better, but to get better and better and better, but the multiverse is real because all the multiverse is real because all the multiverse is real because all possibilities are being realized and I possibilities are being realized and I possibilities are being realized and I said, "There'll be some version of John said, "There'll be some version of John said, "There'll be some version of John Mackey that goes down that horrible path Mackey that goes down that horrible path Mackey that goes down that horrible path with you. I'm just letting you know with you. I'm just letting you know with you. I'm just letting you know it'll be a different one than this guy." it'll be a different one than this guy." it'll be a different one than this guy." >> [laughter] >> [laughter] >> [laughter] >> Big news, Juni just launched at Kroger >> Big news, Juni just launched at Kroger >> Big news, Juni just launched at Kroger and we're celebrating with a free can and we're celebrating with a free can and we're celebrating with a free can for you because most of us hit that for you because most of us hit that for you because most of us hit that point in the afternoon when our energy point in the afternoon when our energy point in the afternoon when our energy dips and the focus starts to fade. Well, dips and the focus starts to fade. Well, dips and the focus starts to fade. Well, that's exactly why we created Juni, a that's exactly why we created Juni, a that's exactly why we created Juni, a sparkling drink crafted with natural sparkling drink crafted with natural sparkling drink crafted with natural ingredients to lift your mood, sharpen ingredients to lift your mood, sharpen ingredients to lift your mood, sharpen your focus, and give you smooth energy your focus, and give you smooth energy your focus, and give you smooth energy all without the crash. Now available at all without the crash. Now available at all without the crash. Now available at Kroger stores including Ralph's, Fred Kroger stores including Ralph's, Fred Kroger stores including Ralph's, Fred Meyer, King Soopers, Smith's, and Fry's Meyer, King Soopers, Smith's, and Fry's Meyer, King Soopers, Smith's, and Fry's where you can grab a free Juni on us. So where you can grab a free Juni on us. So where you can grab a free Juni on us. So head to drinkjuni.com/kroger head to drinkjuni.com/kroger head to drinkjuni.com/kroger to claim your free can in store so you to claim your free can in store so you to claim your free can in store so you can feel better and live better. can feel better and live better. can feel better and live better. >> And I think C.S. Lewis wrote it best >> And I think C.S. Lewis wrote it best >> And I think C.S. Lewis wrote it best that you don't have a soul, you are the that you don't have a soul, you are the that you don't have a soul, you are the soul and you have a body. soul and you have a body. soul and you have a body. >> Oh, yes, that's beautiful. >> Oh, yes, that's beautiful. >> Oh, yes, that's beautiful. >> And yes, that's one of my favorite >> And yes, that's one of my favorite >> And yes, that's one of my favorite favorite favorite favorite >> C.S. Lewis fan. >> C.S. Lewis fan. >> C.S. Lewis fan. >> Yeah, me too. And so, it's one of my >> Yeah, me too. And so, it's one of my >> Yeah, me too. And so, it's one of my favorite favorite statements that you favorite favorite statements that you favorite favorite statements that you don't have a soul, you are the soul and don't have a soul, you are the soul and don't have a soul, you are the soul and you have a body. And I loved your you have a body. And I loved your you have a body. And I loved your metaphor about the clothes. It reminds metaphor about the clothes. It reminds metaphor about the clothes. It reminds me of a verse in the Bhagavad Gita which me of a verse in the Bhagavad Gita which me of a verse in the Bhagavad Gita which talks about that just as we put on talks about that just as we put on talks about that just as we put on clothes and take them off every day, the clothes and take them off every day, the clothes and take them off every day, the soul takes on new bodies and takes them soul takes on new bodies and takes them soul takes on new bodies and takes them off and takes on new ones. off and takes on new ones. off and takes on new ones. >> Exactly. >> Exactly. >> Exactly. >> And and that cycle continues. And I >> And and that cycle continues. And I >> And and that cycle continues. And I think that there's such a liberation to think that there's such a liberation to think that there's such a liberation to that acceptance as well. In that ego that acceptance as well. In that ego that acceptance as well. In that ego death, as you called it, that if I start death, as you called it, that if I start death, as you called it, that if I start to think I am my clothes or I am my car, to think I am my clothes or I am my car, to think I am my clothes or I am my car, imagine how hard life becomes. imagine how hard life becomes. imagine how hard life becomes. >> Yes. >> Yes. >> Yes. >> Imagine how difficult it becomes if >> Imagine how difficult it becomes if >> Imagine how difficult it becomes if every time your clothes get a bit dirty every time your clothes get a bit dirty every time your clothes get a bit dirty or there's a little rip on them or or there's a little rip on them or or there's a little rip on them or there's, you know, someone knocks into there's, you know, someone knocks into there's, you know, someone knocks into your car. And we even say that when your car. And we even say that when your car. And we even say that when someone hits our car, we say, "Someone someone hits our car, we say, "Someone someone hits our car, we say, "Someone hit me." hit me." hit me." >> Oh, yeah. I never thought about that. We >> Oh, yeah. I never thought about that. We >> Oh, yeah. I never thought about that. We do, don't we? do, don't we? do, don't we? >> They >> They >> They They hit our car, but we go, "I got hit They hit our car, but we go, "I got hit They hit our car, but we go, "I got hit today." today." today." Uh and and so, it's so interesting how Uh and and so, it's so interesting how Uh and and so, it's so interesting how quickly we identify with our material quickly we identify with our material quickly we identify with our material casing. casing. casing. >> Yes. >> Yes. >> Yes. >> And and what we operate in. And I wanted >> And and what we operate in. And I wanted >> And and what we operate in. And I wanted to ask you that how does that then to ask you that how does that then to ask you that how does that then translate to business and to building a translate to business and to building a translate to business and to building a life in the dream, as you called it? life in the dream, as you called it? life in the dream, as you called it? When you're now trying to operate in the When you're now trying to operate in the When you're now trying to operate in the dream, how does that realization dream, how does that realization dream, how does that realization actually help? Are you now visioning in actually help? Are you now visioning in actually help? Are you now visioning in alternate realities? Are you now alternate realities? Are you now alternate realities? Are you now strategizing differently? Like, how does strategizing differently? Like, how does strategizing differently? Like, how does that make you approach building Whole that make you approach building Whole that make you approach building Whole Foods differently? Because Whole Foods Foods differently? Because Whole Foods Foods differently? Because Whole Foods is very tangible. It's very real. is very tangible. It's very real. is very tangible. It's very real. >> The way I think about it and I The first >> The way I think about it and I The first >> The way I think about it and I The first chapter in the book is called The Game chapter in the book is called The Game chapter in the book is called The Game of Life. And the very last chapter in of Life. And the very last chapter in of Life. And the very last chapter in the book is called The Infinite Game. the book is called The Infinite Game. the book is called The Infinite Game. And if the one self, the one being has And if the one self, the one being has And if the one self, the one being has always existed, always existed, always existed, and the the and I think Hinduism talks and the the and I think Hinduism talks and the the and I think Hinduism talks about this in the Vedanta, we're in the about this in the Vedanta, we're in the about this in the Vedanta, we're in the one in the stillness and in pure one in the stillness and in pure one in the stillness and in pure beingness and bliss, beingness and bliss, beingness and bliss, and then and then and then the Big Bang occurs and we explode into the Big Bang occurs and we explode into the Big Bang occurs and we explode into the multiverse on our adventures and the multiverse on our adventures and the multiverse on our adventures and then we come back together again. And then we come back together again. And then we come back together again. And that's that's the infinite game. We do that's that's the infinite game. We do that's that's the infinite game. We do it and we'll always do it. And so once it and we'll always do it. And so once it and we'll always do it. And so once you realize that it's all a game, that you realize that it's all a game, that you realize that it's all a game, that every possibility is realized, we're every possibility is realized, we're every possibility is realized, we're just going to infinitely create, then just going to infinitely create, then just going to infinitely create, then you can you can frame it up so there's you can you can frame it up so there's you can you can frame it up so there's just this just this just this fun game. Games are to be fun and that's fun game. Games are to be fun and that's fun game. Games are to be fun and that's a better way to live. It's living your a better way to live. It's living your a better way to live. It's living your life life life as it's fun and loving and joyful and as it's fun and loving and joyful and as it's fun and loving and joyful and that you're creating. that you're creating. that you're creating. We are very happy when we're creating We are very happy when we're creating We are very happy when we're creating things. Watch children, they're things. Watch children, they're things. Watch children, they're endlessly creative, they're endlessly endlessly creative, they're endlessly endlessly creative, they're endlessly playful. I always tell people, you want playful. I always tell people, you want playful. I always tell people, you want to make a friend with a child, all you to make a friend with a child, all you to make a friend with a child, all you have to do is one thing. Just play with have to do is one thing. Just play with have to do is one thing. Just play with them. When you play with a child, they them. When you play with a child, they them. When you play with a child, they start to trust you. They begin to find start to trust you. They begin to find start to trust you. They begin to find that you're you're fun to hang around that you're you're fun to hang around that you're you're fun to hang around with. You're not like all those other with. You're not like all those other with. You're not like all those other mean grown-ups. I just think that is a mean grown-ups. I just think that is a mean grown-ups. I just think that is a good metaphor for existence itself, the good metaphor for existence itself, the good metaphor for existence itself, the metaphor of the game. But an infinite metaphor of the game. But an infinite metaphor of the game. But an infinite game that we are creating ourselves and game that we are creating ourselves and game that we are creating ourselves and playing, eternal play, because you have playing, eternal play, because you have playing, eternal play, because you have an infinite amount of time. I mean, an infinite amount of time. I mean, an infinite amount of time. I mean, there's no beginning, no end, there there's no beginning, no end, there there's no beginning, no end, there never will be. So, yeah. never will be. So, yeah. never will be. So, yeah. Find your own, connect with your soul, Find your own, connect with your soul, Find your own, connect with your soul, find out what your soul wants to do and find out what your soul wants to do and find out what your soul wants to do and then do it. And have fun and and and do then do it. And have fun and and and do then do it. And have fun and and and do good in the world. good in the world. good in the world. >> I think play is a great analogy because >> I think play is a great analogy because >> I think play is a great analogy because play is not mental. play is not mental. play is not mental. And I think when you say find out what And I think when you say find out what And I think when you say find out what your soul wants to do, I think the hard your soul wants to do, I think the hard your soul wants to do, I think the hard part is we're we're up here going part is we're we're up here going part is we're we're up here going well, I don't know what my passion is, I well, I don't know what my passion is, I well, I don't know what my passion is, I don't know what to do. And I'm and I'm don't know what to do. And I'm and I'm don't know what to do. And I'm and I'm speaking on behalf of I know people's speaking on behalf of I know people's speaking on behalf of I know people's genuine troubles when they're listening genuine troubles when they're listening genuine troubles when they're listening to the show and they're like, well, Jay, to the show and they're like, well, Jay, to the show and they're like, well, Jay, look, I don't know what my passion is, I look, I don't know what my passion is, I look, I don't know what my passion is, I don't know where to start, I don't know don't know where to start, I don't know don't know where to start, I don't know what skills I have and these are all what skills I have and these are all what skills I have and these are all mental mental mental arithmetic exercises. Whereas what arithmetic exercises. Whereas what arithmetic exercises. Whereas what you're saying is not on that level. So, you're saying is not on that level. So, you're saying is not on that level. So, how do we get out of our heads? how do we get out of our heads? how do we get out of our heads? >> Here's the thing. >> Here's the thing. >> Here's the thing. Those are clues. Those are clues. Those are clues. The best way is to go directly to the The best way is to go directly to the The best way is to go directly to the source, vis-a-vis source, vis-a-vis source, vis-a-vis breath work, meditation, do spiritual breath work, meditation, do spiritual breath work, meditation, do spiritual exercises. However, exercises. However, exercises. However, one clue is the things that give you one clue is the things that give you one clue is the things that give you joy. joy. joy. That's a clue to who you are and what That's a clue to who you are and what That's a clue to who you are and what and what your own heart is calling you and what your own heart is calling you and what your own heart is calling you to do. So, I often I get asked all the to do. So, I often I get asked all the to do. So, I often I get asked all the time. I'll probably get asked that time. I'll probably get asked that time. I'll probably get asked that tonight when I'm busy talking to this tonight when I'm busy talking to this tonight when I'm busy talking to this university is like, well, university is like, well, university is like, well, you know, how do you know what your you know, how do you know what your you know, how do you know what your heart wants you to do? And I said, you heart wants you to do? And I said, you heart wants you to do? And I said, you know you're on the path when you're know you're on the path when you're know you're on the path when you're happy. happy. happy. When you're listening to your heart and When you're listening to your heart and When you're listening to your heart and it's bringing you joy and discovery and it's bringing you joy and discovery and it's bringing you joy and discovery and creativity and play, you're you're on creativity and play, you're you're on creativity and play, you're you're on your path. You your path. You your path. You And when you it's when you're not And when you it's when you're not And when you it's when you're not experiencing those things that you're experiencing those things that you're experiencing those things that you're not on the path. And so, the things that not on the path. And so, the things that not on the path. And so, the things that that draw you in like for me when I I that draw you in like for me when I I that draw you in like for me when I I moved into that co-op and I had my food moved into that co-op and I had my food moved into that co-op and I had my food awakening and all I was interested in awakening and all I was interested in awakening and all I was interested in Well, I just wanted to learn about food. Well, I just wanted to learn about food. Well, I just wanted to learn about food. I want to learn about agriculture and I want to learn about agriculture and I want to learn about agriculture and and and organic and regenerative and and and organic and regenerative and and and organic and regenerative and sustainable and and natural foods and it sustainable and and natural foods and it sustainable and and natural foods and it was like I couldn't get enough of it was like I couldn't get enough of it was like I couldn't get enough of it because I was so interested in it. So, because I was so interested in it. So, because I was so interested in it. So, those are all clues to what makes your those are all clues to what makes your those are all clues to what makes your heart sing. heart sing. heart sing. That's who you're being. That's That's That's who you're being. That's That's That's who you're being. That's That's in this dream. That's what you're trying in this dream. That's what you're trying in this dream. That's what you're trying to create and you can get in touch with to create and you can get in touch with to create and you can get in touch with that through spiritual exercises. In my that through spiritual exercises. In my that through spiritual exercises. In my case, you know, I my parents wanted me case, you know, I my parents wanted me case, you know, I my parents wanted me to be a professional and my my I talk to be a professional and my my I talk to be a professional and my my I talk about in the book, my mother died about in the book, my mother died about in the book, my mother died feeling like I was a failure. feeling like I was a failure. feeling like I was a failure. She died 1987 because for her, her son She died 1987 because for her, her son She died 1987 because for her, her son was a grocer. was a grocer. was a grocer. And for that, I was so downwardly And for that, I was so downwardly And for that, I was so downwardly mobile. I never graduated from college. mobile. I never graduated from college. mobile. I never graduated from college. I just I have 120 hours of electives. I I just I have 120 hours of electives. I I just I have 120 hours of electives. I just studied philosophy and religion, just studied philosophy and religion, just studied philosophy and religion, whatever I was interested in. Got a whatever I was interested in. Got a whatever I was interested in. Got a great education. I just didn't get great education. I just didn't get great education. I just didn't get credentialed. And for her, the credentialed. And for her, the credentialed. And for her, the credentials are what really mattered. credentials are what really mattered. credentials are what really mattered. But I was I was off on my pursuit. I I But I was I was off on my pursuit. I I But I was I was off on my pursuit. I I was on my hero's journey and it was was on my hero's journey and it was was on my hero's journey and it was giving me happiness and joy and that's giving me happiness and joy and that's giving me happiness and joy and that's how you know. how you know. how you know. >> How do you know the difference between >> How do you know the difference between >> How do you know the difference between the happiness and joy and the discomfort the happiness and joy and the discomfort the happiness and joy and the discomfort that comes even in the happy and joyful that comes even in the happy and joyful that comes even in the happy and joyful path versus the discomfort path versus the discomfort path versus the discomfort that is not your path? Because I think that is not your path? Because I think that is not your path? Because I think when people think of like, am I happy when people think of like, am I happy when people think of like, am I happy and joyful, and joyful, and joyful, then things get a bit harder or like then things get a bit harder or like then things get a bit harder or like you're saying, there were days when you're saying, there were days when you're saying, there were days when Whole Foods could have failed like and Whole Foods could have failed like and Whole Foods could have failed like and it doesn't get easy and then you're it doesn't get easy and then you're it doesn't get easy and then you're like, oh well, is this bringing me joy like, oh well, is this bringing me joy like, oh well, is this bringing me joy now? So how do now? So how do now? So how do >> We have to introduce another character >> We have to introduce another character >> We have to introduce another character to the story. I mean, we talked about to the story. I mean, we talked about to the story. I mean, we talked about the ego. But part of our ego is what the ego. But part of our ego is what the ego. But part of our ego is what what I and others call the internal what I and others call the internal what I and others call the internal critic. critic. critic. The The ego really doesn't It judges The The ego really doesn't It judges The The ego really doesn't It judges everyone. The ego's constantly judging. everyone. The ego's constantly judging. everyone. The ego's constantly judging. That's the part that's envious. That's That's the part that's envious. That's That's the part that's envious. That's the part that's angry. That's the part the part that's angry. That's the part the part that's angry. That's the part part that somebody cuts you off in part that somebody cuts you off in part that somebody cuts you off in traffic, you know, you you say curse traffic, you know, you you say curse traffic, you know, you you say curse words. And that's the one that's judging words. And that's the one that's judging words. And that's the one that's judging us all the time. Like As I got deeper us all the time. Like As I got deeper us all the time. Like As I got deeper into my own spiritual journey, that I into my own spiritual journey, that I into my own spiritual journey, that I saw that the critical life issue for me saw that the critical life issue for me saw that the critical life issue for me was was was I I I am not worthy of love because I'm not am not worthy of love because I'm not am not worthy of love because I'm not perfect. perfect. perfect. I do things that I'm regret I do I do things that I'm regret I do I do things that I'm regret I do sometimes identify with the ego and I do sometimes identify with the ego and I do sometimes identify with the ego and I do things that later on I think that was a things that later on I think that was a things that later on I think that was a I shouldn't have said that. That was and I shouldn't have said that. That was and I shouldn't have said that. That was and I But then I have to go, you know, I But then I have to go, you know, I But then I have to go, you know, practice forgiveness to move through it. practice forgiveness to move through it. practice forgiveness to move through it. There is that part of us that is There is that part of us that is There is that part of us that is constantly judging and it That's what it constantly judging and it That's what it constantly judging and it That's what it does all the time. It judges everyone does all the time. It judges everyone does all the time. It judges everyone else else else and it judges and mostly judges and it judges and mostly judges and it judges and mostly judges ourselves and then those judgments for ourselves and then those judgments for ourselves and then those judgments for ourselves we project out into the world ourselves we project out into the world ourselves we project out into the world into the dream and then the dream is into the dream and then the dream is into the dream and then the dream is manifesting all the time. Our emotions, manifesting all the time. Our emotions, manifesting all the time. Our emotions, our thoughts are always creating the our thoughts are always creating the our thoughts are always creating the dream. Here's an interesting thing about dream. Here's an interesting thing about dream. Here's an interesting thing about the dream. the dream. the dream. We're always a character in our own We're always a character in our own We're always a character in our own dreams, right? dreams, right? dreams, right? Who are the other characters that seem Who are the other characters that seem Who are the other characters that seem to be acting independently of us? We're to be acting independently of us? We're to be acting independently of us? We're the dreamer. the dreamer. the dreamer. How can they do things different? How do How can they do things different? How do How can they do things different? How do they And how's that even happen? they And how's that even happen? they And how's that even happen? And once you begin to realize, oh my And once you begin to realize, oh my And once you begin to realize, oh my god, I'm the dreamer. I'm creating those god, I'm the dreamer. I'm creating those god, I'm the dreamer. I'm creating those characters as well. characters as well. characters as well. And they're they're representations of And they're they're representations of And they're they're representations of some of my other inner thoughts, some of my other inner thoughts, some of my other inner thoughts, emotions, judgments, and whatnot. emotions, judgments, and whatnot. emotions, judgments, and whatnot. Once you realize that, then it's like Once you realize that, then it's like Once you realize that, then it's like you you stop being a victim in your own you you stop being a victim in your own you you stop being a victim in your own dream. So, if if these things are not dream. So, if if these things are not dream. So, if if these things are not working out for you the way you want, working out for you the way you want, working out for you the way you want, that the internal critic wants to that the internal critic wants to that the internal critic wants to project it out into the dream and say, project it out into the dream and say, project it out into the dream and say, "I'm a victim. These people are are "I'm a victim. These people are are "I'm a victim. These people are are should be treating me differently. I should be treating me differently. I should be treating me differently. I feel righteous in being angry." But feel righteous in being angry." But feel righteous in being angry." But again, you're putting out those emotions again, you're putting out those emotions again, you're putting out those emotions that are not furthering your life and that are not furthering your life and that are not furthering your life and not bringing you joy and happiness. And not bringing you joy and happiness. And not bringing you joy and happiness. And then you get you sort of get stuck in then you get you sort of get stuck in then you get you sort of get stuck in it. You get trapped in it. And I think it. You get trapped in it. And I think it. You get trapped in it. And I think that's that's the human condition in a that's that's the human condition in a that's that's the human condition in a way. The spiritual journey is to awaken way. The spiritual journey is to awaken way. The spiritual journey is to awaken to realize, "Oh my gosh, it is a dream. to realize, "Oh my gosh, it is a dream. to realize, "Oh my gosh, it is a dream. I'm the dreamer. I'm a character in the I'm the dreamer. I'm a character in the I'm the dreamer. I'm a character in the dream. And so then, how do I treat all dream. And so then, how do I treat all dream. And so then, how do I treat all the other characters the way I want to the other characters the way I want to the other characters the way I want to be treated?" be treated?" be treated?" >> Mhm. >> Mhm. >> Mhm. >> And that's with love, compassion, >> And that's with love, compassion, >> And that's with love, compassion, forgiveness, thoughtfulness. Then that forgiveness, thoughtfulness. Then that forgiveness, thoughtfulness. Then that dream begins to change. dream begins to change. dream begins to change. >> Is that's the energy we put out? >> Is that's the energy we put out? >> Is that's the energy we put out? >> But you know, it's a it's a path because >> But you know, it's a it's a path because >> But you know, it's a it's a path because we will forget. Here's Here's what I we will forget. Here's Here's what I we will forget. Here's Here's what I always tell people, you'll forget. always tell people, you'll forget. always tell people, you'll forget. You'll go back and you'll start You'll go back and you'll start You'll go back and you'll start listening to the ego and the internal listening to the ego and the internal listening to the ego and the internal critic and you'll judge and you'll but critic and you'll judge and you'll but critic and you'll judge and you'll but you'll forget that, "Oh, yes, I'm I you'll forget that, "Oh, yes, I'm I you'll forget that, "Oh, yes, I'm I remember now. It's It's It's It's my remember now. It's It's It's It's my remember now. It's It's It's It's my spiritual path. It's just a dream." I spiritual path. It's just a dream." I spiritual path. It's just a dream." I guess one of the big lessons I learned, guess one of the big lessons I learned, guess one of the big lessons I learned, Jay, is that the past is doesn't really Jay, is that the past is doesn't really Jay, is that the past is doesn't really exist. The past is gone. All that's real exist. The past is gone. All that's real exist. The past is gone. All that's real is right now in this moment. That is is right now in this moment. That is is right now in this moment. That is what's real. And in this moment, you can what's real. And in this moment, you can what's real. And in this moment, you can choose again. In this moment, you can choose again. In this moment, you can choose again. In this moment, you can choose love. In this moment, you can choose love. In this moment, you can choose love. In this moment, you can choose forgiveness. choose forgiveness. choose forgiveness. And then if you forget, And then if you forget, And then if you forget, that's okay. Because that's the past. that's okay. Because that's the past. that's okay. Because that's the past. And now in this next moment, you can And now in this next moment, you can And now in this next moment, you can choose again. We have this freedom. choose again. We have this freedom. choose again. We have this freedom. That's our freedom. We have freedom in That's our freedom. We have freedom in That's our freedom. We have freedom in the moment to choose love, to choose the moment to choose love, to choose the moment to choose love, to choose peace, to choose kindness, to choose peace, to choose kindness, to choose peace, to choose kindness, to choose forgiveness, to be alive, to be playful. forgiveness, to be alive, to be playful. forgiveness, to be alive, to be playful. And it's okay if we forget. If you get And it's okay if we forget. If you get And it's okay if we forget. If you get down on yourself for forgetting, then down on yourself for forgetting, then down on yourself for forgetting, then you're you're empowering that ego to you're you're empowering that ego to you're you're empowering that ego to judge you as not perfect. But when judge you as not perfect. But when judge you as not perfect. But when you're sharing love in the moment, you you're sharing love in the moment, you you're sharing love in the moment, you are perfect. are perfect. are perfect. So, you can be perfect in the next So, you can be perfect in the next So, you can be perfect in the next moment by just choosing again to be moment by just choosing again to be moment by just choosing again to be present in the moment. And in the present in the moment. And in the present in the moment. And in the moment, there is love. moment, there is love. moment, there is love. >> How did you transfer that energy? Like, >> How did you transfer that energy? Like, >> How did you transfer that energy? Like, I'm imagining you as you're building I'm imagining you as you're building I'm imagining you as you're building this this this huge company, before you're walking to a huge company, before you're walking to a huge company, before you're walking to a meeting, when you're leading a staff meeting, when you're leading a staff meeting, when you're leading a staff meeting, when you're meeting meeting, when you're meeting meeting, when you're meeting stakeholders, stakeholders, stakeholders, how was this translating into reality? how was this translating into reality? how was this translating into reality? What does that look like What does that look like What does that look like when you're leading a company? Because when you're leading a company? Because when you're leading a company? Because you may not be saying these words, but you may not be saying these words, but you may not be saying these words, but you're trying to live them. you're trying to live them. you're trying to live them. >> First of all, I didn't do it perfectly. >> First of all, I didn't do it perfectly. >> First of all, I didn't do it perfectly. I didn't stay in the love space all the I didn't stay in the love space all the I didn't stay in the love space all the time. time. time. I got angry, I got judgmental, I got I got angry, I got judgmental, I got I got angry, I got judgmental, I got afraid, I all the you know, fear, envy, afraid, I all the you know, fear, envy, afraid, I all the you know, fear, envy, they're they're they're all there. I I they're they're they're all there. I I they're they're they're all there. I I didn't claim that I did Whole Foods in didn't claim that I did Whole Foods in didn't claim that I did Whole Foods in any kind of enlightened way all the any kind of enlightened way all the any kind of enlightened way all the time. I always said Whole Foods was my time. I always said Whole Foods was my time. I always said Whole Foods was my ashram. That was the place where I got ashram. That was the place where I got ashram. That was the place where I got to practice. to practice. to practice. >> Mhm. >> Mhm. >> Mhm. >> I get to practice forgiveness. I get to >> I get to practice forgiveness. I get to >> I get to practice forgiveness. I get to practice being the returning to love. I practice being the returning to love. I practice being the returning to love. I did learn some good things. We did I did learn some good things. We did I did learn some good things. We did I always tell people, always tell people, always tell people, if you want to have a more loving if you want to have a more loving if you want to have a more loving business, the single thing I practice business, the single thing I practice business, the single thing I practice that I most recommend, we would end all that I most recommend, we would end all that I most recommend, we would end all our meetings at Whole Foods with our meetings at Whole Foods with our meetings at Whole Foods with appreciations. appreciations. appreciations. The the two things that can shift that The the two things that can shift that The the two things that can shift that make the mental shift, emotional shift, make the mental shift, emotional shift, make the mental shift, emotional shift, the spiritual shift, one is gratitude. I the spiritual shift, one is gratitude. I the spiritual shift, one is gratitude. I start my days with gratitude because it start my days with gratitude because it start my days with gratitude because it opens the heart. And then you practice opens the heart. And then you practice opens the heart. And then you practice forgiveness when you feel like forgiveness when you feel like forgiveness when you feel like somebody's wronged you, you practice somebody's wronged you, you practice somebody's wronged you, you practice forgiveness. But most importantly, we forgiveness. But most importantly, we forgiveness. But most importantly, we would end our meetings with would end our meetings with would end our meetings with appreciations. appreciations. appreciations. >> Mhm. >> Mhm. >> Mhm. >> That's incredibly powerful. It's very >> That's incredibly powerful. It's very >> That's incredibly powerful. It's very hard for people to stay in a judgmental hard for people to stay in a judgmental hard for people to stay in a judgmental frame when you've just appreciated them frame when you've just appreciated them frame when you've just appreciated them in an authentic way. I always say people in an authentic way. I always say people in an authentic way. I always say people can know the difference between somebody can know the difference between somebody can know the difference between somebody who's flattering them who's flattering them who's flattering them because they can feel like they want because they can feel like they want because they can feel like they want something from me versus somebody who's something from me versus somebody who's something from me versus somebody who's genuinely appreciating us. It's very genuinely appreciating us. It's very genuinely appreciating us. It's very hard to keep your heart closed to that. hard to keep your heart closed to that. hard to keep your heart closed to that. And so, as we practiced appreciations in And so, as we practiced appreciations in And so, as we practiced appreciations in our meetings, I could see the love in our meetings, I could see the love in our meetings, I could see the love in the larger team, in the larger group the larger team, in the larger group the larger team, in the larger group spreading. We did it at every level. And spreading. We did it at every level. And spreading. We did it at every level. And that one technique is very, very that one technique is very, very that one technique is very, very powerful. I always encourage people that powerful. I always encourage people that powerful. I always encourage people that are running businesses or even just are running businesses or even just are running businesses or even just running a team, if you end your meetings running a team, if you end your meetings running a team, if you end your meetings with appreciations, you will find with appreciations, you will find with appreciations, you will find consciousness begins to shift in the consciousness begins to shift in the consciousness begins to shift in the dream. dream. dream. >> I'm so glad you brought that up. I >> I'm so glad you brought that up. I >> I'm so glad you brought that up. I remember when I was a monk, one of our remember when I was a monk, one of our remember when I was a monk, one of our practices after completing a service or practices after completing a service or practices after completing a service or completing an offering that we were completing an offering that we were completing an offering that we were doing, whether it was doing, whether it was doing, whether it was you know, feeding the homeless or or you know, feeding the homeless or or you know, feeding the homeless or or serving in our local communities, serving in our local communities, serving in our local communities, whoever led that project would go around whoever led that project would go around whoever led that project would go around the room and honor and appreciate each the room and honor and appreciate each the room and honor and appreciate each person who was serving with them. person who was serving with them. person who was serving with them. And so, when I started my company, I And so, when I started my company, I And so, when I started my company, I would do that at like our Christmas or would do that at like our Christmas or would do that at like our Christmas or holiday dinners or at at our team events holiday dinners or at at our team events holiday dinners or at at our team events or whatever, I'd go around the room and or whatever, I'd go around the room and or whatever, I'd go around the room and individually speak uniquely about each individually speak uniquely about each individually speak uniquely about each person in the room who is doing person in the room who is doing person in the room who is doing something, and people found it so something, and people found it so something, and people found it so strange, and to me it was the most strange, and to me it was the most strange, and to me it was the most normal thing I'd done growing up, and normal thing I'd done growing up, and normal thing I'd done growing up, and and it's become such a beautiful ritual and it's become such a beautiful ritual and it's become such a beautiful ritual that we have because that we have because that we have because I find it so beautiful to reflect on I find it so beautiful to reflect on I find it so beautiful to reflect on people's individual contribution and the people's individual contribution and the people's individual contribution and the value that they've brought and to remind value that they've brought and to remind value that they've brought and to remind them of it. them of it. them of it. >> You're seeing their beauty. You're >> You're seeing their beauty. You're >> You're seeing their beauty. You're seeing the the God part of them, and you seeing the the God part of them, and you seeing the the God part of them, and you are helping them to see it. are helping them to see it. are helping them to see it. >> Mhm. >> Mhm. >> Mhm. >> Because as you express that >> Because as you express that >> Because as you express that authentically, they can feel your love authentically, they can feel your love authentically, they can feel your love for them. And they begin to wonder, for them. And they begin to wonder, for them. And they begin to wonder, maybe I'm actually more lovable than I maybe I'm actually more lovable than I maybe I'm actually more lovable than I thought. thought. thought. >> Yes. Yeah, [laughter] exactly. And and I >> Yes. Yeah, [laughter] exactly. And and I >> Yes. Yeah, [laughter] exactly. And and I think think think we feel the most unloved when we feel we feel the most unloved when we feel we feel the most unloved when we feel unseen. unseen. unseen. And so, if you really want to make And so, if you really want to make And so, if you really want to make someone feel loved, you can only do that someone feel loved, you can only do that someone feel loved, you can only do that by making them feel seen. When people by making them feel seen. When people by making them feel seen. When people feel seen for who they are and what they feel seen for who they are and what they feel seen for who they are and what they contribute and what they bring and how contribute and what they bring and how contribute and what they bring and how much they have to give and share, then much they have to give and share, then much they have to give and share, then they not only do they see it in they not only do they see it in they not only do they see it in themselves, but they feel truly seen, so themselves, but they feel truly seen, so themselves, but they feel truly seen, so they feel truly loved. they feel truly loved. they feel truly loved. >> That's why the what the greatest gift we >> That's why the what the greatest gift we >> That's why the what the greatest gift we can usually give anyone is just to be can usually give anyone is just to be can usually give anyone is just to be present for them in the moment, not lost present for them in the moment, not lost present for them in the moment, not lost in our thoughts. It's not, you know, we in our thoughts. It's not, you know, we in our thoughts. It's not, you know, we we tend to if we listen, we start we tend to if we listen, we start we tend to if we listen, we start thinking about what we want to talk thinking about what we want to talk thinking about what we want to talk about or what we're going to say, and we about or what we're going to say, and we about or what we're going to say, and we lose presence. But the greatest gift lose presence. But the greatest gift lose presence. But the greatest gift when you can just be fully present for when you can just be fully present for when you can just be fully present for someone, someone, someone, you are loving them by just being you are loving them by just being you are loving them by just being present for them, and they feel that present for them, and they feel that present for them, and they feel that presence. So, I absolutely agree. It's presence. So, I absolutely agree. It's presence. So, I absolutely agree. It's It's It's It's It's It's It's they feel seen. I I like that expression they feel seen. I I like that expression they feel seen. I I like that expression of it. of it. of it. >> I don't want anyone who's listening or >> I don't want anyone who's listening or >> I don't want anyone who's listening or watching to be under any false pretenses watching to be under any false pretenses watching to be under any false pretenses that I'm always operating from this that I'm always operating from this that I'm always operating from this space either. Like, I I love what you space either. Like, I I love what you space either. Like, I I love what you said about there are days when you're said about there are days when you're said about there are days when you're agitated, and there are days when you're agitated, and there are days when you're agitated, and there are days when you're frustrated, and there are days when it's frustrated, and there are days when it's frustrated, and there are days when it's not love, it's fear, it's insecurity, not love, it's fear, it's insecurity, not love, it's fear, it's insecurity, it's it's results. Like, that's the it's it's results. Like, that's the it's it's results. Like, that's the normal human experience, and I think normal human experience, and I think normal human experience, and I think what I definitely learned is what I definitely learned is what I definitely learned is and I love that you used the word ashram and I love that you used the word ashram and I love that you used the word ashram in that sense, in that sense, in that sense, uh because that's exactly what an ashram uh because that's exactly what an ashram uh because that's exactly what an ashram is. An ashram is a place to practice, a is. An ashram is a place to practice, a is. An ashram is a place to practice, a place to learn, a place to heal. It's a place to learn, a place to heal. It's a place to learn, a place to heal. It's a hospital, not a results center, you hospital, not a results center, you hospital, not a results center, you know? I think a lot of know? I think a lot of know? I think a lot of >> [laughter] >> [laughter] >> [laughter] >> people don't realize. I remember >> people don't realize. I remember >> people don't realize. I remember one of my first days in the monastery, one of my first days in the monastery, one of my first days in the monastery, my teacher told me, he said, "Don't my teacher told me, he said, "Don't my teacher told me, he said, "Don't forget this is a hospital. Like, forget this is a hospital. Like, forget this is a hospital. Like, everyone next to you has got an illness, everyone next to you has got an illness, everyone next to you has got an illness, and so do you. And the moment you start and so do you. And the moment you start and so do you. And the moment you start thinking everyone around you is perfect thinking everyone around you is perfect thinking everyone around you is perfect is when you won't like this place at is when you won't like this place at is when you won't like this place at all, because you came here seeking all, because you came here seeking all, because you came here seeking perfection, when actually you should perfection, when actually you should perfection, when actually you should have come here seeking practice." have come here seeking practice." have come here seeking practice." >> Obviously, you found a good found a good >> Obviously, you found a good found a good >> Obviously, you found a good found a good teacher. teacher. teacher. >> I do. I'm very lucky. I have I have a >> I do. I'm very lucky. I have I have a >> I do. I'm very lucky. I have I have a great set of teachers. Um but I love the great set of teachers. Um but I love the great set of teachers. Um but I love the the use of the use of the use of the language appropriately. It functions the language appropriately. It functions the language appropriately. It functions so well, and I love that we're having a so well, and I love that we're having a so well, and I love that we're having a spiritual conversation about business. spiritual conversation about business. spiritual conversation about business. This is so fulfilling to me. So, thank This is so fulfilling to me. So, thank This is so fulfilling to me. So, thank you so much for for this opportunity, you so much for for this opportunity, you so much for for this opportunity, because it's such a new take. We've had because it's such a new take. We've had because it's such a new take. We've had business leaders on the podcast before, business leaders on the podcast before, business leaders on the podcast before, but this is a very different thing. but this is a very different thing. but this is a very different thing. When you're thinking about growth, I When you're thinking about growth, I When you're thinking about growth, I think going back to that conscious think going back to that conscious think going back to that conscious capitalism point earlier, I do think a capitalism point earlier, I do think a capitalism point earlier, I do think a lot of spiritual people still feel hung lot of spiritual people still feel hung lot of spiritual people still feel hung up about being ambitious, about being up about being ambitious, about being up about being ambitious, about being results-driven, results-driven, results-driven, about being focused on a goal. They feel about being focused on a goal. They feel about being focused on a goal. They feel in some way deep inside of them we have in some way deep inside of them we have in some way deep inside of them we have that wiring that if you're striving for that wiring that if you're striving for that wiring that if you're striving for more, you're in some way ungrateful, more, you're in some way ungrateful, more, you're in some way ungrateful, unsatisfied. unsatisfied. unsatisfied. >> could be desired. Yeah, so let's talk >> could be desired. Yeah, so let's talk >> could be desired. Yeah, so let's talk about that. about that. about that. >> If that's your ashram, it's a more >> If that's your ashram, it's a more >> If that's your ashram, it's a more difficult path. difficult path. difficult path. You know the old saying, it's easy to be You know the old saying, it's easy to be You know the old saying, it's easy to be a saint on a mountaintop. a saint on a mountaintop. a saint on a mountaintop. I'm talking about being a saint while I'm talking about being a saint while I'm talking about being a saint while you're building a business. That's not you're building a business. That's not you're building a business. That's not so easy to do because um happens. so easy to do because um happens. so easy to do because um happens. And how you respond to that, that's your And how you respond to that, that's your And how you respond to that, that's your opportunity is how you choose to respond opportunity is how you choose to respond opportunity is how you choose to respond to the circumstances you find in in your to the circumstances you find in in your to the circumstances you find in in your dream. How do you How will you show up? dream. How do you How will you show up? dream. How do you How will you show up? And I think the key is you won't always And I think the key is you won't always And I think the key is you won't always show up well. You'll make some mistakes, show up well. You'll make some mistakes, show up well. You'll make some mistakes, but don't have to get lost there because but don't have to get lost there because but don't have to get lost there because you can remember who you are. Remember you can remember who you are. Remember you can remember who you are. Remember who you are. And in that next moment you who you are. And in that next moment you who you are. And in that next moment you can choose differently. We can snap back can choose differently. We can snap back can choose differently. We can snap back to it right now, whenever we want to. to it right now, whenever we want to. to it right now, whenever we want to. And that took me a long time to learn. And that took me a long time to learn. And that took me a long time to learn. Sometimes I might be lost in the dream Sometimes I might be lost in the dream Sometimes I might be lost in the dream for for days and days, even weeks at a for for days and days, even weeks at a for for days and days, even weeks at a time. And then I'd remember, "Oh my god. time. And then I'd remember, "Oh my god. time. And then I'd remember, "Oh my god. Look, I've been such a jerk." And then Look, I've been such a jerk." And then Look, I've been such a jerk." And then in instead of bang beating myself up for in instead of bang beating myself up for in instead of bang beating myself up for not being perfect, it's like, "Yes, but not being perfect, it's like, "Yes, but not being perfect, it's like, "Yes, but this next moment I no longer I am this next moment I no longer I am this next moment I no longer I am present again. present again. present again. I'm back into the love space." I'm back into the love space." I'm back into the love space." >> People often ask me like why like how >> People often ask me like why like how >> People often ask me like why like how how do you function in business and how do you function in business and how do you function in business and obviously now I live in LA and obviously now I live in LA and obviously now I live in LA and everything else and it's I actually everything else and it's I actually everything else and it's I actually relish the battle because I'm reminded relish the battle because I'm reminded relish the battle because I'm reminded every day that I'm not a saint when I'm every day that I'm not a saint when I'm every day that I'm not a saint when I'm here. Whereas on the mountaintop, I here. Whereas on the mountaintop, I here. Whereas on the mountaintop, I could potentially believe that I've made could potentially believe that I've made could potentially believe that I've made >> think you're a saint, yeah, you've >> think you're a saint, yeah, you've >> think you're a saint, yeah, you've already you've already forgotten. already you've already forgotten. already you've already forgotten. >> Yeah, exactly. Exactly. [laughter] >> Yeah, exactly. Exactly. [laughter] >> Yeah, exactly. Exactly. [laughter] >> The ego's always try It's like, "Oh, >> The ego's always try It's like, "Oh, >> The ego's always try It's like, "Oh, you're going to do this spiritual thing? you're going to do this spiritual thing? you're going to do this spiritual thing? I'm going to be the very best there is. I'm going to be the very best there is. I'm going to be the very best there is. >> Exactly. Exactly. >> Exactly. Exactly. >> Exactly. Exactly. >> That's the ego trying to maintain >> That's the ego trying to maintain >> That's the ego trying to maintain control, so to speak. control, so to speak. control, so to speak. >> I love the idea that I live in a >> I love the idea that I live in a >> I love the idea that I live in a universe that constantly holds up a universe that constantly holds up a universe that constantly holds up a mirror to me because I'm constantly mirror to me because I'm constantly mirror to me because I'm constantly reminded of my desires, my lower nature, reminded of my desires, my lower nature, reminded of my desires, my lower nature, my higher nature, my the complexities of my higher nature, my the complexities of my higher nature, my the complexities of it. And I love that battle. I relish it it. And I love that battle. I relish it it. And I love that battle. I relish it because that's what reminds me to stay because that's what reminds me to stay because that's what reminds me to stay on the journey and stay on the path and on the journey and stay on the path and on the journey and stay on the path and stay committed. And I wanted to ask you stay committed. And I wanted to ask you stay committed. And I wanted to ask you like when you like when you like when you had moments of difficulty had moments of difficulty had moments of difficulty where you feel you are moving away from where you feel you are moving away from where you feel you are moving away from love in business and away from love in business and away from love in business and away from compassion, compassion, compassion, did you come up with any practices or did you come up with any practices or did you come up with any practices or habits or tools that habits or tools that habits or tools that locked you back in? locked you back in? locked you back in? >> People would also oftentimes when you >> People would also oftentimes when you >> People would also oftentimes when you have a difficult situations, let's say have a difficult situations, let's say have a difficult situations, let's say you have to fire somebody you have to fire somebody you have to fire somebody or you have a business that you're going or you have a business that you're going or you have a business that you're going to shut down. These are very painful, to shut down. These are very painful, to shut down. These are very painful, very very difficult things to do. You very very difficult things to do. You very very difficult things to do. You know people are going to be hurt. know people are going to be hurt. know people are going to be hurt. And because we know that people are And because we know that people are And because we know that people are going to be hurt, then the call and the going to be hurt, then the call and the going to be hurt, then the call and the only right call is compassion. But you only right call is compassion. But you only right call is compassion. But you have to think about what's the have to think about what's the have to think about what's the collective good for all and you have to collective good for all and you have to collective good for all and you have to make some difficult decisions because make some difficult decisions because make some difficult decisions because you're always thinking, "What's my you're always thinking, "What's my you're always thinking, "What's my win-win-win solution? Good for me, good win-win-win solution? Good for me, good win-win-win solution? Good for me, good for you, good for all of us." And that for you, good for all of us." And that for you, good for all of us." And that sometimes means you have to do difficult sometimes means you have to do difficult sometimes means you have to do difficult things. things. things. But it's how you do that makes all the But it's how you do that makes all the But it's how you do that makes all the difference and how you show up. If you difference and how you show up. If you difference and how you show up. If you show up in your heart with love and show up in your heart with love and show up in your heart with love and compassion, compassion, compassion, you're probably going to have a even you're probably going to have a even you're probably going to have a even though it's difficult, it's probably though it's difficult, it's probably though it's difficult, it's probably going to go well and you'll maintain a going to go well and you'll maintain a going to go well and you'll maintain a relationship because they can feel your relationship because they can feel your relationship because they can feel your genuine love for them. genuine love for them. genuine love for them. If you do it with judgement If you do it with judgement If you do it with judgement and anger, it's like, you know, you're and anger, it's like, you know, you're and anger, it's like, you know, you're just getting what you deserve, then just getting what you deserve, then just getting what you deserve, then you've missed it. That's you've missed it. That's you've missed it. That's another opportunity, we'll say, to to be another opportunity, we'll say, to to be another opportunity, we'll say, to to be in the heart space and do the difficult in the heart space and do the difficult in the heart space and do the difficult things. It's like it's a skill that you things. It's like it's a skill that you things. It's like it's a skill that you have to practice. And if you practice have to practice. And if you practice have to practice. And if you practice it, you will get better at it. And it, you will get better at it. And it, you will get better at it. And you'll still to mistakes, but then you'll still to mistakes, but then you'll still to mistakes, but then you'll learn from those mistakes. If you you'll learn from those mistakes. If you you'll learn from those mistakes. If you just continue to view it all as an just continue to view it all as an just continue to view it all as an opportunity to learn and grow and opportunity to learn and grow and opportunity to learn and grow and spiritually evolve and that you will spiritually evolve and that you will spiritually evolve and that you will make some mistakes and you will learn make some mistakes and you will learn make some mistakes and you will learn from them. from them. from them. >> Mhm. >> Mhm. >> Mhm. >> And it's like you were talking about >> And it's like you were talking about >> And it's like you were talking about learning from those that, you know, learning from those that, you know, learning from those that, you know, instead of envying them, you you study instead of envying them, you you study instead of envying them, you you study them. Well, it's the same thing with you them. Well, it's the same thing with you them. Well, it's the same thing with you you learn from your own mistakes. One you learn from your own mistakes. One you learn from your own mistakes. One practice that's very helpful here, Jay, practice that's very helpful here, Jay, practice that's very helpful here, Jay, is to have people that love you is to have people that love you is to have people that love you that you can talk about all the stuff that you can talk about all the stuff that you can talk about all the stuff with and they will tell you the truth. with and they will tell you the truth. with and they will tell you the truth. >> Mhm. >> Mhm. >> Mhm. >> They'll say, "John, >> They'll say, "John, >> They'll say, "John, you you were really harsh in that. You you you were really harsh in that. You you you were really harsh in that. You You You were not You were not in a You You were not You were not in a You You were not You were not in a loving space when you did that, were loving space when you did that, were loving space when you did that, were you?" And it's like, "No, I really you?" And it's like, "No, I really you?" And it's like, "No, I really wasn't." And he says, "Well, what are wasn't." And he says, "Well, what are wasn't." And he says, "Well, what are you going to do about it?" And I said, you going to do about it?" And I said, you going to do about it?" And I said, "I'm going to go apologize." I I really "I'm going to go apologize." I I really "I'm going to go apologize." I I really do think we underestimate the power of do think we underestimate the power of do think we underestimate the power of forgiveness. We will make mistakes, forgiveness. We will make mistakes, forgiveness. We will make mistakes, mess up, mess up, mess up, fess up. When you make a mistake, when fess up. When you make a mistake, when fess up. When you make a mistake, when you hurt somebody, when you're not in you hurt somebody, when you're not in you hurt somebody, when you're not in your heart, when you're in an angry, your heart, when you're in an angry, your heart, when you're in an angry, judgmental space, judgmental space, judgmental space, the next moment you can choose love and the next moment you can choose love and the next moment you can choose love and part of choosing love is to go ahead. part of choosing love is to go ahead. part of choosing love is to go ahead. The ego doesn't like to admit it made The ego doesn't like to admit it made The ego doesn't like to admit it made mistakes. It doesn't like to apologize. mistakes. It doesn't like to apologize. mistakes. It doesn't like to apologize. It doesn't like to ask for forgiveness. It doesn't like to ask for forgiveness. It doesn't like to ask for forgiveness. But that will restore you into that love But that will restore you into that love But that will restore you into that love flow. So, you have to be willing to go flow. So, you have to be willing to go flow. So, you have to be willing to go ahead and admit that you're not perfect, ahead and admit that you're not perfect, ahead and admit that you're not perfect, that you made mistakes and then as you that you made mistakes and then as you that you made mistakes and then as you do that, you can then let go of it and do that, you can then let go of it and do that, you can then let go of it and then you can return. then you can return. then you can return. >> Yeah, John, you talk about the term >> Yeah, John, you talk about the term >> Yeah, John, you talk about the term servant leadership and I feel like today servant leadership and I feel like today servant leadership and I feel like today more than ever we don't really have good more than ever we don't really have good more than ever we don't really have good role models of the role models of the role models of the >> have it. We don't have it. Our >> have it. We don't have it. Our >> have it. We don't have it. Our presidential race is certainly presidential race is certainly presidential race is certainly >> it's so far [clears throat] away from >> it's so far [clears throat] away from >> it's so far [clears throat] away from that and I feel like servant leadership, that and I feel like servant leadership, that and I feel like servant leadership, compassionate leadership, conscious compassionate leadership, conscious compassionate leadership, conscious leadership, all of these things you'd leadership, all of these things you'd leadership, all of these things you'd hope are in business schools and hope are in business schools and hope are in business schools and colleges and universities, but they're colleges and universities, but they're colleges and universities, but they're not. And if it does come up, it comes up not. And if it does come up, it comes up not. And if it does come up, it comes up because it's hey, it'll be profitable to because it's hey, it'll be profitable to because it's hey, it'll be profitable to be this way or we still haven't got to a be this way or we still haven't got to a be this way or we still haven't got to a place where people realize that place where people realize that place where people realize that we should create businesses because we should create businesses because we should create businesses because they'd be good for our kids and future they'd be good for our kids and future they'd be good for our kids and future generations or we should create generations or we should create generations or we should create something that positively impacts the something that positively impacts the something that positively impacts the world. And we're still not there yet. world. And we're still not there yet. world. And we're still not there yet. I'm going to I'm going to I'm going to >> tell you something you probably never >> tell you something you probably never >> tell you something you probably never thought about before. Who teaches in thought about before. Who teaches in thought about before. Who teaches in medical schools? medical schools? medical schools? >> Professors, I mean >> Professors, I mean >> Professors, I mean >> They're doctors. >> They're doctors. >> They're doctors. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Who teaches in law schools? Lawyers. >> Who teaches in law schools? Lawyers. >> Who teaches in law schools? Lawyers. >> Lawyers, right. >> Lawyers, right. >> Lawyers, right. >> Who teaches in our business schools? >> Who teaches in our business schools? >> Who teaches in our business schools? Not business people. Not business people. Not business people. Uh they're intellectuals. They're Uh they're intellectuals. They're Uh they're intellectuals. They're academics. academics. academics. And it's not that that's bad. It's just And it's not that that's bad. It's just And it's not that that's bad. It's just that they don't have the experience that they don't have the experience that they don't have the experience of actually of actually of actually leading. They have a theory about leading. They have a theory about leading. They have a theory about leadership. There's a reason why medical leadership. There's a reason why medical leadership. There's a reason why medical schools and and law schools actually schools and and law schools actually schools and and law schools actually have real professionals that are have real professionals that are have real professionals that are teaching them the skills that they need teaching them the skills that they need teaching them the skills that they need to know. And I think it's part of where to know. And I think it's part of where to know. And I think it's part of where we've gone wrong in business. We have we've gone wrong in business. We have we've gone wrong in business. We have people that have almost no experience in people that have almost no experience in people that have almost no experience in business teaching our students. So they business teaching our students. So they business teaching our students. So they can't teach from actual experience of of can't teach from actual experience of of can't teach from actual experience of of leadership. They don't really know about leadership. They don't really know about leadership. They don't really know about it because they have never really done it because they have never really done it because they have never really done it. it. it. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> So that's one reform that we need to do. >> So that's one reform that we need to do. >> So that's one reform that we need to do. There needs to be sort of a tradition, I There needs to be sort of a tradition, I There needs to be sort of a tradition, I think, that uh if you're passing your think, that uh if you're passing your think, that uh if you're passing your wisdom on, if you're if if you're a wisdom on, if you're if if you're a wisdom on, if you're if if you're a retired business leader, that you should retired business leader, that you should retired business leader, that you should be It's one reason I'm going to go speak be It's one reason I'm going to go speak be It's one reason I'm going to go speak at this university tonight. I'm going to at this university tonight. I'm going to at this university tonight. I'm going to be talking to business students and I'm be talking to business students and I'm be talking to business students and I'm going to be sharing my experiences as we going to be sharing my experiences as we going to be sharing my experiences as we talk about this book. talk about this book. talk about this book. That's going to be invaluable to them That's going to be invaluable to them That's going to be invaluable to them because that's not something they're because that's not something they're because that's not something they're getting in an MBA program. getting in an MBA program. getting in an MBA program. >> Obviously, the decision to sell to >> Obviously, the decision to sell to >> Obviously, the decision to sell to Amazon was not one that you made Amazon was not one that you made Amazon was not one that you made lightly. lightly. lightly. >> No. >> No. >> No. >> Explain what was hard, easy >> Explain what was hard, easy >> Explain what was hard, easy about that decision. about that decision. about that decision. >> the choice about, you know, where do you >> the choice about, you know, where do you >> the choice about, you know, where do you start the story? And in this case, I start the story? And in this case, I start the story? And in this case, I won't give the background for how we got won't give the background for how we got won't give the background for how we got into this position, but the short answer into this position, but the short answer into this position, but the short answer is Whole Foods is being attacked by is Whole Foods is being attacked by is Whole Foods is being attacked by shareholder activist. Our our stock had shareholder activist. Our our stock had shareholder activist. Our our stock had declined in the last couple of years, declined in the last couple of years, declined in the last couple of years, and then a shareholder activist is and then a shareholder activist is and then a shareholder activist is somebody that generally wants to make somebody that generally wants to make somebody that generally wants to make change to get the stock price up, and change to get the stock price up, and change to get the stock price up, and then they'll make they'll make money then they'll make they'll make money then they'll make they'll make money doing that. So they're very short-term doing that. So they're very short-term doing that. So they're very short-term focused. We had a shareholder activist focused. We had a shareholder activist focused. We had a shareholder activist called Jana Partners. called Jana Partners. called Jana Partners. They didn't want to work with us. They They didn't want to work with us. They They didn't want to work with us. They just They said, "We're going to take just They said, "We're going to take just They said, "We're going to take over your board and we're going to As over your board and we're going to As over your board and we're going to As soon as we get our control of the board, soon as we get our control of the board, soon as we get our control of the board, we're going to fire you, we're going to fire you, we're going to fire you, fire other parts of the management team, fire other parts of the management team, fire other parts of the management team, and then we're going to just sell the and then we're going to just sell the and then we're going to just sell the business to the highest bidder, and business to the highest bidder, and business to the highest bidder, and there's not anything you can do about there's not anything you can do about there's not anything you can do about it." And left. And a little bit stronger it." And left. And a little bit stronger it." And left. And a little bit stronger language than that. So, for me, it was language than that. So, for me, it was language than that. So, for me, it was like like like I kept asking this question. It was a I kept asking this question. It was a I kept asking this question. It was a spiritual question. spiritual question. spiritual question. What is the win-win-win solution here? What is the win-win-win solution here? What is the win-win-win solution here? What is the best thing for all of our What is the best thing for all of our What is the best thing for all of our stakeholders? How do our customers win? stakeholders? How do our customers win? stakeholders? How do our customers win? How do our employees win? How do our How do our employees win? How do our How do our employees win? How do our suppliers win? How do our investors win? suppliers win? How do our investors win? suppliers win? How do our investors win? How do the communities that we're part How do the communities that we're part How do the communities that we're part of win? of win? of win? And we I looked at all the different And we I looked at all the different And we I looked at all the different alternatives and I kept But I kept alternatives and I kept But I kept alternatives and I kept But I kept asking that question. I really do asking that question. I really do asking that question. I really do believe when you ask the question and believe when you ask the question and believe when you ask the question and you stay on it and you keep asking your you stay on it and you keep asking your you stay on it and you keep asking your soul for the answer, soul for the answer, soul for the answer, that it it emerges. And that it it emerges. And that it it emerges. And I remember waking up one morning and it I remember waking up one morning and it I remember waking up one morning and it just popped into my brain, right when I just popped into my brain, right when I just popped into my brain, right when I woke up, and I knew it was the right woke up, and I knew it was the right woke up, and I knew it was the right answer. It said, "What about Amazon?" answer. It said, "What about Amazon?" answer. It said, "What about Amazon?" Because it was kind of a crazy idea. Because it was kind of a crazy idea. Because it was kind of a crazy idea. Amazon wasn't They didn't have any Amazon wasn't They didn't have any Amazon wasn't They didn't have any grocery stores. grocery stores. grocery stores. I'd met Jeff Bezos the year before at a I'd met Jeff Bezos the year before at a I'd met Jeff Bezos the year before at a conference, and he and I had really kind conference, and he and I had really kind conference, and he and I had really kind of hit it off. You know, we we had a lot of hit it off. You know, we we had a lot of hit it off. You know, we we had a lot of common interests. Jeff was a He loved of common interests. Jeff was a He loved of common interests. Jeff was a He loved to read science fiction and fantasy. We to read science fiction and fantasy. We to read science fiction and fantasy. We shared that in common. He liked to scuba shared that in common. He liked to scuba shared that in common. He liked to scuba dive. I've done a lot of scuba diving dive. I've done a lot of scuba diving dive. I've done a lot of scuba diving around the world. He's an entrepreneur. around the world. He's an entrepreneur. around the world. He's an entrepreneur. I'm an entrepreneur. And entrepreneurs I'm an entrepreneur. And entrepreneurs I'm an entrepreneur. And entrepreneurs generally can find lots of things to generally can find lots of things to generally can find lots of things to talk about. Talk Talk about their talk about. Talk Talk about their talk about. Talk Talk about their businesses. He was very interested in businesses. He was very interested in businesses. He was very interested in Whole Foods. Whole Foods. Whole Foods. We were on a panel together, and so I We were on a panel together, and so I We were on a panel together, and so I really liked him. I admired what Amazon really liked him. I admired what Amazon really liked him. I admired what Amazon had created, and Jeff is a one of the had created, and Jeff is a one of the had created, and Jeff is a one of the smartest, smartest, smartest, most creative people I've ever met. most creative people I've ever met. most creative people I've ever met. We looked at other possibilities. Maybe We looked at other possibilities. Maybe We looked at other possibilities. Maybe Warren Buffett would buy the company and Warren Buffett would buy the company and Warren Buffett would buy the company and it'd be in friendly hands. He joked and it'd be in friendly hands. He joked and it'd be in friendly hands. He joked and said, "I own Dairy Queen, and I eat junk said, "I own Dairy Queen, and I eat junk said, "I own Dairy Queen, and I eat junk food. This isn't a good fit for me." food. This isn't a good fit for me." food. This isn't a good fit for me." >> [laughter] >> [laughter] >> [laughter] >> And we We talked to Albertsons, and we >> And we We talked to Albertsons, and we >> And we We talked to Albertsons, and we realized, "Oh my god, they realized, "Oh my god, they realized, "Oh my god, they they would That would be terrible for us they would That would be terrible for us they would That would be terrible for us to be part of that company. Uh we to be part of that company. Uh we to be part of that company. Uh we thought about going private, but then thought about going private, but then thought about going private, but then you're taking on, you know, 12, 13 you're taking on, you know, 12, 13 you're taking on, you know, 12, 13 billion dollars on your balance sheet billion dollars on your balance sheet billion dollars on your balance sheet and you have to pay that back and you and you have to pay that back and you and you have to pay that back and you take and you have to pay interest on it. take and you have to pay interest on it. take and you have to pay interest on it. The economy has a downturn like it did The economy has a downturn like it did The economy has a downturn like it did in 2008, you might fail. And you're also in 2008, you might fail. And you're also in 2008, you might fail. And you're also giving control of your business over to giving control of your business over to giving control of your business over to private equity people and they'll have private equity people and they'll have private equity people and they'll have different different motivations, just different different motivations, just different different motivations, just make quick make money. make quick make money. make quick make money. So, we didn't have a good answer and we So, we didn't have a good answer and we So, we didn't have a good answer and we we The other answer was to fight Janna. we The other answer was to fight Janna. we The other answer was to fight Janna. But Whole Foods needed time to turn But Whole Foods needed time to turn But Whole Foods needed time to turn around his business. We needed time to around his business. We needed time to around his business. We needed time to lower our prices. If you're selling lower our prices. If you're selling lower our prices. If you're selling something for a dollar and all of a something for a dollar and all of a something for a dollar and all of a sudden now you sell it for 90 cents, in sudden now you sell it for 90 cents, in sudden now you sell it for 90 cents, in the short run, the short run, the short run, your sales fall, your same-store sales your sales fall, your same-store sales your sales fall, your same-store sales fall, your profits fall, and when you fall, your profits fall, and when you fall, your profits fall, and when you have activists, you know, that want have activists, you know, that want have activists, you know, that want immediate quick turnaround, then that's immediate quick turnaround, then that's immediate quick turnaround, then that's not you we needed that takes a couple of not you we needed that takes a couple of not you we needed that takes a couple of years before lower prices will help your years before lower prices will help your years before lower prices will help your customers see, well, Whole Foods is customers see, well, Whole Foods is customers see, well, Whole Foods is actually not whole paycheck any longer. actually not whole paycheck any longer. actually not whole paycheck any longer. I I love the store and now it's more I I love the store and now it's more I I love the store and now it's more affordable to shop there. affordable to shop there. affordable to shop there. When it popped in my brain about Amazon, When it popped in my brain about Amazon, When it popped in my brain about Amazon, we flew I we They were very interested we flew I we They were very interested we flew I we They were very interested right from the beginning and we flew out right from the beginning and we flew out right from the beginning and we flew out there and I met with Jeff and three of there and I met with Jeff and three of there and I met with Jeff and three of his leaders and I had three of my his leaders and I had three of my his leaders and I had three of my leaders. It was four on four and we leaders. It was four on four and we leaders. It was four on four and we talked for about three hours just about talked for about three hours just about talked for about three hours just about what we could do together. And they were what we could do together. And they were what we could do together. And they were not They were not your typical corporate not They were not your typical corporate not They were not your typical corporate types. These were extremely intelligent types. These were extremely intelligent types. These were extremely intelligent people, very creative. We had They had a people, very creative. We had They had a people, very creative. We had They had a lot of good ideas about what we could do lot of good ideas about what we could do lot of good ideas about what we could do together. together. together. And I remember when we left there, my And I remember when we left there, my And I remember when we left there, my team and I went to a restaurant and team and I went to a restaurant and team and I went to a restaurant and we're sitting around talking about it we're sitting around talking about it we're sitting around talking about it and they said, "That was an incredible and they said, "That was an incredible and they said, "That was an incredible conversation. Those guys were not conversation. Those guys were not conversation. Those guys were not anything like I thought they would be. anything like I thought they would be. anything like I thought they would be. They're so smart and they're so They're so smart and they're so They're so smart and they're so creative. It'd be fun to work with them. creative. It'd be fun to work with them. creative. It'd be fun to work with them. It'd be It'd be a blast." And then it It'd be It'd be a blast." And then it It'd be It'd be a blast." And then it was like, "What do you think they liked was like, "What do you think they liked was like, "What do you think they liked us, too?" us, too?" us, too?" And it turned out they did and they flew And it turned out they did and they flew And it turned out they did and they flew to Austin just a few days later and they to Austin just a few days later and they to Austin just a few days later and they started due diligence and 6 weeks after started due diligence and 6 weeks after started due diligence and 6 weeks after that initial meeting, we struck a deal. that initial meeting, we struck a deal. that initial meeting, we struck a deal. And when people ask me, are you is you And when people ask me, are you is you And when people ask me, are you is you have any regrets about selling to have any regrets about selling to have any regrets about selling to Amazon? And the honest answer is, Amazon? And the honest answer is, Amazon? And the honest answer is, you know, you know, you know, given the circumstances, that was the given the circumstances, that was the given the circumstances, that was the best solution. I regret that the best solution. I regret that the best solution. I regret that the circumstances were such that that was circumstances were such that that was circumstances were such that that was our best solution. But it was the best our best solution. But it was the best our best solution. But it was the best solution. If I had to do it again under solution. If I had to do it again under solution. If I had to do it again under the same circumstances, it would have the same circumstances, it would have the same circumstances, it would have been far better than Janna selling us to been far better than Janna selling us to been far better than Janna selling us to Albertsons or Kroger or some other Albertsons or Kroger or some other Albertsons or Kroger or some other supermarket chain that wouldn't supermarket chain that wouldn't supermarket chain that wouldn't understand our values, our culture. understand our values, our culture. understand our values, our culture. Amazon has largely not completely, but Amazon has largely not completely, but Amazon has largely not completely, but it's largely let Whole Foods keep its it's largely let Whole Foods keep its it's largely let Whole Foods keep its culture and operate independently. Now culture and operate independently. Now culture and operate independently. Now now it's with me gone in particular, 2 now it's with me gone in particular, 2 now it's with me gone in particular, 2 years now, they are they've made more years now, they are they've made more years now, they are they've made more changes than they did when I was there, changes than they did when I was there, changes than they did when I was there, partly because I resisted a lot of the partly because I resisted a lot of the partly because I resisted a lot of the changes they wanted to do. Let me just changes they wanted to do. Let me just changes they wanted to do. Let me just point out how it was a win-win-win. We point out how it was a win-win-win. We point out how it was a win-win-win. We got to cut our prices significantly four got to cut our prices significantly four got to cut our prices significantly four times in the first 2 years. It cost times in the first 2 years. It cost times in the first 2 years. It cost Amazon hundreds of millions of dollars Amazon hundreds of millions of dollars Amazon hundreds of millions of dollars for us to do that, but they think for us to do that, but they think for us to do that, but they think long-term. They're willing to make that long-term. They're willing to make that long-term. They're willing to make that investment, put Whole Foods on a sound investment, put Whole Foods on a sound investment, put Whole Foods on a sound or long-term financial footing. or long-term financial footing. or long-term financial footing. They increased the pay of every hourly They increased the pay of every hourly They increased the pay of every hourly team member in Whole Foods within 30 team member in Whole Foods within 30 team member in Whole Foods within 30 days of the merger occurring. And that days of the merger occurring. And that days of the merger occurring. And that cost them hundreds of millions of cost them hundreds of millions of cost them hundreds of millions of dollars. So that was good for our team dollars. So that was good for our team dollars. So that was good for our team members, good for our customers. It was members, good for our customers. It was members, good for our customers. It was good for our suppliers because one thing good for our suppliers because one thing good for our suppliers because one thing Amazon did was study every supplier we Amazon did was study every supplier we Amazon did was study every supplier we had, and they discovered we had all had, and they discovered we had all had, and they discovered we had all these suppliers they didn't know about these suppliers they didn't know about these suppliers they didn't know about that they put into their amazon.com and that they put into their amazon.com and that they put into their amazon.com and started selling their foods and their started selling their foods and their started selling their foods and their products. And so it was a big boom. And products. And so it was a big boom. And products. And so it was a big boom. And they didn't tell us we had to get rid of they didn't tell us we had to get rid of they didn't tell us we had to get rid of anybody. They just studied and learned anybody. They just studied and learned anybody. They just studied and learned from us. It was good for our investors from us. It was good for our investors from us. It was good for our investors because the stock they you know, we sold because the stock they you know, we sold because the stock they you know, we sold it for 30% more than it was before we it for 30% more than it was before we it for 30% more than it was before we started talking to Amazon. And started talking to Amazon. And started talking to Amazon. And it was good for the communities that we it was good for the communities that we it was good for the communities that we were part of. Amazon did not change our were part of. Amazon did not change our were part of. Amazon did not change our philanthropic activities for Whole Food philanthropic activities for Whole Food philanthropic activities for Whole Food the Whole Planet Foundation or the Whole the Whole Planet Foundation or the Whole the Whole Planet Foundation or the Whole Kids Foundation. In fact, they gave more Kids Foundation. In fact, they gave more Kids Foundation. In fact, they gave more money to it. There were lots of taxes money to it. There were lots of taxes money to it. There were lots of taxes paid to governments because of the paid to governments because of the paid to governments because of the capital gains that were done. And so I capital gains that were done. And so I capital gains that were done. And so I think about every one of the think about every one of the think about every one of the stakeholders was better off as a result stakeholders was better off as a result stakeholders was better off as a result of the Amazon merger. of the Amazon merger. of the Amazon merger. But, was it it wasn't perfect. I did But, was it it wasn't perfect. I did But, was it it wasn't perfect. I did fight with Amazon a lot. I would say fight with Amazon a lot. I would say fight with Amazon a lot. I would say Whole Foods is a more heart-based Whole Foods is a more heart-based Whole Foods is a more heart-based company. Amazon's a more professional company. Amazon's a more professional company. Amazon's a more professional culture. Uh people are there to work culture. Uh people are there to work culture. Uh people are there to work there for a while, get it on their there for a while, get it on their there for a while, get it on their resume, and then get a higher-paying job resume, and then get a higher-paying job resume, and then get a higher-paying job somewhere else. There's not as much somewhere else. There's not as much somewhere else. There's not as much loyalty in that company. Whereas Whole loyalty in that company. Whereas Whole loyalty in that company. Whereas Whole Foods, that that that's the thing that Foods, that that that's the thing that Foods, that that that's the thing that surprised Amazon when they dug under the surprised Amazon when they dug under the surprised Amazon when they dug under the hood at Whole Foods, it's like, "Wow, hood at Whole Foods, it's like, "Wow, hood at Whole Foods, it's like, "Wow, you've had so many people working 20, you've had so many people working 20, you've had so many people working 20, 30, even 40 years here. How do you do 30, even 40 years here. How do you do 30, even 40 years here. How do you do that?" that?" that?" And I told them the truth. I said, And I told them the truth. I said, And I told them the truth. I said, "Guys, if you want to if you want "Guys, if you want to if you want "Guys, if you want to if you want longevity, longevity, longevity, you just you give people two things. you just you give people two things. you just you give people two things. Give them purpose. People need purpose. Give them purpose. People need purpose. Give them purpose. People need purpose. They want to feel like their work is They want to feel like their work is They want to feel like their work is contributing to making the world a contributing to making the world a contributing to making the world a better place in some way or fashion or better place in some way or fashion or better place in some way or fashion or helping people. And secondly, they want helping people. And secondly, they want helping people. And secondly, they want to feel they're loved. They want to feel to feel they're loved. They want to feel to feel they're loved. They want to feel they're cared for. So, if you give they're cared for. So, if you give they're cared for. So, if you give people purpose and love, people purpose and love, people purpose and love, yeah, why would they ever want to leave? yeah, why would they ever want to leave? yeah, why would they ever want to leave? Professional cultures don't generally Professional cultures don't generally Professional cultures don't generally give you one of those. give you one of those. give you one of those. >> Yeah, and then when you >> Yeah, and then when you >> Yeah, and then when you resign as CEO in 2021, resign as CEO in 2021, resign as CEO in 2021, and you did a goodbye tour. and you did a goodbye tour. and you did a goodbye tour. >> I left in 2022, so it's been 2 years >> I left in 2022, so it's been 2 years >> I left in 2022, so it's been 2 years ago. ago. ago. >> gave notice. >> gave notice. >> gave notice. >> Right, right, right, right. >> Right, right, right, right. >> Right, right, right, right. >> And I had a whole year of saying >> And I had a whole year of saying >> And I had a whole year of saying goodbye. goodbye. goodbye. >> Understood. But you were my favorite >> Understood. But you were my favorite >> Understood. But you were my favorite CEO. CEO. CEO. >> Oh, it was incredible. >> Oh, it was incredible. >> Oh, it was incredible. >> So, did you go to every store? >> So, did you go to every store? >> So, did you go to every store? >> No, that wasn't possible, but I got to >> No, that wasn't possible, but I got to >> No, that wasn't possible, but I got to every region. every region. every region. >> Right. >> Right. >> Right. >> I did literally talk to tens of >> I did literally talk to tens of >> I did literally talk to tens of thousands of team members. And what I thousands of team members. And what I thousands of team members. And what I did for that whole year was just thank did for that whole year was just thank did for that whole year was just thank people. people. people. Thank you for what you've done for Whole Thank you for what you've done for Whole Thank you for what you've done for Whole Foods. I mean, I got so much love from Foods. I mean, I got so much love from Foods. I mean, I got so much love from people. It was a beautiful, beautiful uh people. It was a beautiful, beautiful uh people. It was a beautiful, beautiful uh letting go. And I'm you know, still on letting go. And I'm you know, still on letting go. And I'm you know, still on really good terms with the leadership really good terms with the leadership really good terms with the leadership there. And and also, my gift to them there. And and also, my gift to them there. And and also, my gift to them was, "You know what? I'm not meddling at was, "You know what? I'm not meddling at was, "You know what? I'm not meddling at all. I'm not judging you." Are they all. I'm not judging you." Are they all. I'm not judging you." Are they doing some things I don't agree with? doing some things I don't agree with? doing some things I don't agree with? Tons of stuff. But, you know, you've got Tons of stuff. But, you know, you've got Tons of stuff. But, you know, you've got to support the new leadership that comes to support the new leadership that comes to support the new leadership that comes in, knowing that they got to make their in, knowing that they got to make their in, knowing that they got to make their mark, and they've got to follow their mark, and they've got to follow their mark, and they've got to follow their own their own hearts in a way. And also, own their own hearts in a way. And also, own their own hearts in a way. And also, [clears throat] here's the thing, Jay. [clears throat] here's the thing, Jay. [clears throat] here's the thing, Jay. I couldn't really do Love Life until I I couldn't really do Love Life until I I couldn't really do Love Life until I gave up Whole Foods. That's what my gave up Whole Foods. That's what my gave up Whole Foods. That's what my heart was telling me to do. It's like, heart was telling me to do. It's like, heart was telling me to do. It's like, you're not I wasn't happy anymore at you're not I wasn't happy anymore at you're not I wasn't happy anymore at Whole Foods. I was fighting with Amazon Whole Foods. I was fighting with Amazon Whole Foods. I was fighting with Amazon some and I wasn't being creative some and I wasn't being creative some and I wasn't being creative anymore. The the game, the playfulness anymore. The the game, the playfulness anymore. The the game, the playfulness of it, the ability to create, that was of it, the ability to create, that was of it, the ability to create, that was all kind of disappeared for me. I was all kind of disappeared for me. I was all kind of disappeared for me. I was just running a huge corporation for just running a huge corporation for just running a huge corporation for somebody else that wasn't the same kind somebody else that wasn't the same kind somebody else that wasn't the same kind of of of I didn't have the same kind of joy in I didn't have the same kind of joy in I didn't have the same kind of joy in it. Remember how I said earlier, you it. Remember how I said earlier, you it. Remember how I said earlier, you know when you're on the right path know when you're on the right path know when you're on the right path because you're happy? because you're happy? because you're happy? >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> I wasn't happy. I loved Whole Foods >> I wasn't happy. I loved Whole Foods >> I wasn't happy. I loved Whole Foods and I but I wasn't experiencing that and I but I wasn't experiencing that and I but I wasn't experiencing that same joie de vivre that I had same joie de vivre that I had same joie de vivre that I had before that was sold. And so but it was before that was sold. And so but it was before that was sold. And so but it was hard for me to let go of it cuz I loved hard for me to let go of it cuz I loved hard for me to let go of it cuz I loved it so much. it so much. it so much. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> But when I did let it go, then the new >> But when I did let it go, then the new >> But when I did let it go, then the new possibilities emerged. possibilities emerged. possibilities emerged. >> You said something beautiful there about >> You said something beautiful there about >> You said something beautiful there about what it takes to keep people purpose in what it takes to keep people purpose in what it takes to keep people purpose in love. I want to ask you for all the love. I want to ask you for all the love. I want to ask you for all the entrepreneurs that are listening, entrepreneurs that are listening, entrepreneurs that are listening, startups, new companies, founders, large startups, new companies, founders, large startups, new companies, founders, large companies, companies, companies, what is your best advice on hiring and what is your best advice on hiring and what is your best advice on hiring and attracting good people? attracting good people? attracting good people? >> I've always been good at attracting good >> I've always been good at attracting good >> I've always been good at attracting good people because I have a lot of passion, people because I have a lot of passion, people because I have a lot of passion, a lot of purpose, a lot of charisma and a lot of purpose, a lot of charisma and a lot of purpose, a lot of charisma and people are drawn to that like moths to people are drawn to that like moths to people are drawn to that like moths to flames. But I've never been very good at flames. But I've never been very good at flames. But I've never been very good at hiring people and I I believe people's hiring people and I I believe people's hiring people and I I believe people's weaknesses come out of their strengths weaknesses come out of their strengths weaknesses come out of their strengths and one of my strengths is I really see and one of my strengths is I really see and one of my strengths is I really see the beauty in people. I see the goodness the beauty in people. I see the goodness the beauty in people. I see the goodness in people and that sometimes makes me a in people and that sometimes makes me a in people and that sometimes makes me a little bit blind to things that are not little bit blind to things that are not little bit blind to things that are not as good as as good as as good as >> saying I can relate to you in so many >> saying I can relate to you in so many >> saying I can relate to you in so many ways. ways. ways. >> I learned was is that I had other people >> I learned was is that I had other people >> I learned was is that I had other people on my team that had really good on my team that had really good on my team that had really good detectors. Particularly my chief detectors. Particularly my chief detectors. Particularly my chief financial officer, Glenda Flanagan and I financial officer, Glenda Flanagan and I financial officer, Glenda Flanagan and I she was so much better at hiring than I she was so much better at hiring than I she was so much better at hiring than I was. was. was. So I just learned to kind of trust her. So I just learned to kind of trust her. So I just learned to kind of trust her. It's like if Glenda was she didn't think It's like if Glenda was she didn't think It's like if Glenda was she didn't think they were going to be good, I I learned they were going to be good, I I learned they were going to be good, I I learned the hard way. If I hired him anyway, I'd the hard way. If I hired him anyway, I'd the hard way. If I hired him anyway, I'd regret it. I really do believe that you regret it. I really do believe that you regret it. I really do believe that you need to create a team. CEOs get and need to create a team. CEOs get and need to create a team. CEOs get and founders get way too much credit. They founders get way too much credit. They founders get way too much credit. They get too much credit and too much blame. get too much credit and too much blame. get too much credit and too much blame. It's you're always doing it in a team. It's you're always doing it in a team. It's you're always doing it in a team. If you look behind Steve Jobs or an Elon If you look behind Steve Jobs or an Elon If you look behind Steve Jobs or an Elon Musk or a Jeff Bezos. Remember I told Musk or a Jeff Bezos. Remember I told Musk or a Jeff Bezos. Remember I told you how great that Amazon team was. And you how great that Amazon team was. And you how great that Amazon team was. And Jeff was brilliant. So were all those Jeff was brilliant. So were all those Jeff was brilliant. So were all those other people working there. There's just other people working there. There's just other people working there. There's just a lot of super smart people working for a lot of super smart people working for a lot of super smart people working for Amazon. Highly creative people. So Jeff Amazon. Highly creative people. So Jeff Amazon. Highly creative people. So Jeff was able to attract and build a great was able to attract and build a great was able to attract and build a great team. And so you're kind of no better team. And so you're kind of no better team. And so you're kind of no better than your team. than your team. than your team. >> Mhm. >> Mhm. >> Mhm. >> And I was good at attracting good >> And I was good at attracting good >> And I was good at attracting good people, but I wasn't good at discerning people, but I wasn't good at discerning people, but I wasn't good at discerning who was a good cultural fit or whose who was a good cultural fit or whose who was a good cultural fit or whose weaknesses weren't going to take them weaknesses weren't going to take them weaknesses weren't going to take them down and and harm the organization. I down and and harm the organization. I down and and harm the organization. I depended on the other people to make depended on the other people to make depended on the other people to make those calls. those calls. those calls. >> What would be your best advice for >> What would be your best advice for >> What would be your best advice for firing someone? firing someone? firing someone? >> People procrastinate on firing for a >> People procrastinate on firing for a >> People procrastinate on firing for a couple of reasons. One is that they couple of reasons. One is that they couple of reasons. One is that they don't want to hurt the person. don't want to hurt the person. don't want to hurt the person. And secondly, they don't want to feel And secondly, they don't want to feel And secondly, they don't want to feel guilty about it. So my best advice is guilty about it. So my best advice is guilty about it. So my best advice is Whole Foods had an interesting practice. Whole Foods had an interesting practice. Whole Foods had an interesting practice. I make a distinction between people you I make a distinction between people you I make a distinction between people you need to get rid of because they don't need to get rid of because they don't need to get rid of because they don't fit culturally fit culturally fit culturally and those who are just struggling at the and those who are just struggling at the and those who are just struggling at the job. Particularly, what I learned is job. Particularly, what I learned is job. Particularly, what I learned is that when you often times people would that when you often times people would that when you often times people would get promoted because they had done a get promoted because they had done a get promoted because they had done a good job at a lower level, right? So good job at a lower level, right? So good job at a lower level, right? So they're ready for the you think they're they're ready for the you think they're they're ready for the you think they're ready for the next step. For many ready for the next step. For many ready for the next step. For many people, they're not ready for that next people, they're not ready for that next people, they're not ready for that next step. step. step. And then they get fired. And what we had And then they get fired. And what we had And then they get fired. And what we had at Whole Foods is called recycling. at Whole Foods is called recycling. at Whole Foods is called recycling. And it was like, you know what? You were And it was like, you know what? You were And it was like, you know what? You were really successful at your previous job. really successful at your previous job. really successful at your previous job. I want you to go back there because I want you to go back there because I want you to go back there because you're not happy, you're struggling, and you're not happy, you're struggling, and you're not happy, you're struggling, and I want you to go back and then you'll I want you to go back and then you'll I want you to go back and then you'll get an opportunity in the future. get an opportunity in the future. get an opportunity in the future. >> That's fantastic. >> That's fantastic. >> That's fantastic. >> And if their egos couldn't handle that, >> And if their egos couldn't handle that, >> And if their egos couldn't handle that, you knew they needed to go. But the you knew they needed to go. But the you knew they needed to go. But the really good ones would would have say, really good ones would would have say, really good ones would would have say, "Yeah, I am struggling. I want to step "Yeah, I am struggling. I want to step "Yeah, I am struggling. I want to step back, but I'll show you. I'm going to back, but I'll show you. I'm going to back, but I'll show you. I'm going to learn. I'm going to be better. I'm I'm learn. I'm going to be better. I'm I'm learn. I'm going to be better. I'm I'm going to get promoted again." Those that going to get promoted again." Those that going to get promoted again." Those that later on got promoted again, they were later on got promoted again, they were later on got promoted again, they were great because they took their failure, great because they took their failure, great because they took their failure, so to speak, as a learning opportunity so to speak, as a learning opportunity so to speak, as a learning opportunity to grow. to grow. to grow. And so then they became more effective And so then they became more effective And so then they became more effective leaders. So my advice in letting people leaders. So my advice in letting people leaders. So my advice in letting people go is you have to do it for the good of go is you have to do it for the good of go is you have to do it for the good of the company. And if you're not willing the company. And if you're not willing the company. And if you're not willing to do it, I used to tell myself cuz I to do it, I used to tell myself cuz I to do it, I used to tell myself cuz I didn't I never enjoyed doing I was didn't I never enjoyed doing I was didn't I never enjoyed doing I was always challenged for me. But it was always challenged for me. But it was always challenged for me. But it was like if you're not willing to do this like if you're not willing to do this like if you're not willing to do this and you should step aside. Because this and you should step aside. Because this and you should step aside. Because this is what needs to happen. And if you're is what needs to happen. And if you're is what needs to happen. And if you're not willing to do that, they're not a not willing to do that, they're not a not willing to do that, they're not a very good leader. So you have to do what very good leader. So you have to do what very good leader. So you have to do what you really know is best for the you really know is best for the you really know is best for the organization. Other people are counting organization. Other people are counting organization. Other people are counting on you on you on you to make good decisions and and build a to make good decisions and and build a to make good decisions and and build a great company. And if as Steve Jobs used great company. And if as Steve Jobs used great company. And if as Steve Jobs used to say, which I really like what Steve to say, which I really like what Steve to say, which I really like what Steve would say, he'd say would say, he'd say would say, he'd say A-listers hire other A-listers. A-listers hire other A-listers. A-listers hire other A-listers. B-listers hire C-listers. B-listers hire C-listers. B-listers hire C-listers. Because they hire people that aren't as Because they hire people that aren't as Because they hire people that aren't as good as them because it makes them feel good as them because it makes them feel good as them because it makes them feel better about themselves. Good leaders better about themselves. Good leaders better about themselves. Good leaders hire people as good or better than hire people as good or better than hire people as good or better than themselves and are not threatened by themselves and are not threatened by themselves and are not threatened by their strengths because they know that's their strengths because they know that's their strengths because they know that's what'll make the organization better. what'll make the organization better. what'll make the organization better. I happen to agree with that philosophy. I happen to agree with that philosophy. I happen to agree with that philosophy. So you want to hire the A-listers. And So you want to hire the A-listers. And So you want to hire the A-listers. And if you have to fire people, that's if you have to fire people, that's if you have to fire people, that's regrettable. regrettable. regrettable. Also, one of the takeaways there is be Also, one of the takeaways there is be Also, one of the takeaways there is be more careful in who you hire so you more careful in who you hire so you more careful in who you hire so you don't have to fire. don't have to fire. don't have to fire. >> John, it's been such a joy talking to >> John, it's been such a joy talking to >> John, it's been such a joy talking to you today. Honestly, I've had such a you today. Honestly, I've had such a you today. Honestly, I've had such a great time and I feel like we've talked great time and I feel like we've talked great time and I feel like we've talked about everything from spirituality to about everything from spirituality to about everything from spirituality to business to habits to mindfulness. And business to habits to mindfulness. And business to habits to mindfulness. And we end every episode of On Purpose with we end every episode of On Purpose with we end every episode of On Purpose with a final five. And these have to be a final five. And these have to be a final five. And these have to be answered in one word or one sentence answered in one word or one sentence answered in one word or one sentence maximum. So John Mackey, these are your maximum. So John Mackey, these are your maximum. So John Mackey, these are your final five. The first question is what final five. The first question is what final five. The first question is what is the best advice you've ever heard or is the best advice you've ever heard or is the best advice you've ever heard or received? Follow your heart. received? Follow your heart. received? Follow your heart. Second question, what is the worst Second question, what is the worst Second question, what is the worst advice you've ever heard or received? advice you've ever heard or received? advice you've ever heard or received? >> I don't know. >> I don't know. >> I don't know. >> [laughter] >> [laughter] >> [laughter] >> Question number three, how do you define >> Question number three, how do you define >> Question number three, how do you define your current purpose? your current purpose? your current purpose? >> My current purpose is to fully awaken to >> My current purpose is to fully awaken to >> My current purpose is to fully awaken to love love love and to share that love and to share that love and to share that love with everyone I encounter. with everyone I encounter. with everyone I encounter. >> Question number four, how do you define >> Question number four, how do you define >> Question number four, how do you define love? love? love? >> Love >> Love >> Love is the essence of beingness. is the essence of beingness. is the essence of beingness. >> And fifth and final question we ask is >> And fifth and final question we ask is >> And fifth and final question we ask is to every guest who's ever been on the to every guest who's ever been on the to every guest who's ever been on the show, if you could create one law that show, if you could create one law that show, if you could create one law that everyone in the world had to follow, everyone in the world had to follow, everyone in the world had to follow, what would it be? what would it be? what would it be? >> Be kind. >> Be kind. >> Be kind. >> Everyone, the book is called The Whole >> Everyone, the book is called The Whole >> Everyone, the book is called The Whole Story: Adventures in Love, Life, and Story: Adventures in Love, Life, and Story: Adventures in Love, Life, and Capitalism. John Mackey, uh co-founder Capitalism. John Mackey, uh co-founder Capitalism. John Mackey, uh co-founder and former CEO of Whole Foods Market. and former CEO of Whole Foods Market. and former CEO of Whole Foods Market. John, it's been such a John, it's been such a John, it's been such a true pleasure to have you in the studio true pleasure to have you in the studio true pleasure to have you in the studio here today and uh I hope you come back here today and uh I hope you come back here today and uh I hope you come back for many, many more and congratulations for many, many more and congratulations for many, many more and congratulations on an incredible journey, incredible on an incredible journey, incredible on an incredible journey, incredible book, and really excited to see what you book, and really excited to see what you book, and really excited to see what you continue to do with everything that continue to do with everything that continue to do with everything that you're building with Love Life. So, you're building with Love Life. So, you're building with Love Life. So, >> Thank you, Jay. It's been a It's been a >> Thank you, Jay. It's been a It's been a >> Thank you, Jay. It's been a It's been a pleasure. This has been fun. And I'm pleasure. This has been fun. And I'm pleasure. This has been fun. And I'm into I'm into having fun, so this has into I'm into having fun, so this has into I'm into having fun, so this has been very fun for me. So, thanks so much been very fun for me. So, thanks so much been very fun for me. So, thanks so much for for having me here. for for having me here. for for having me here. >> Thank you, John. Thank you. >> Thank you, John. Thank you. >> Thank you, John. Thank you. >> If you loved this episode, you'll love >> If you loved this episode, you'll love >> If you loved this episode, you'll love my conversation with Airbnb founder my conversation with Airbnb founder my conversation with Airbnb founder Brian Chesky on how to tap into your Brian Chesky on how to tap into your Brian Chesky on how to tap into your creative potential and the number one creative potential and the number one creative potential and the number one thing people get wrong about success. thing people get wrong about success. thing people get wrong about success. >> The best people in your life will be >> The best people in your life will be >> The best people in your life will be people who see potential in you that you people who see potential in you that you people who see potential in you that you didn't see in yourself. didn't see in yourself. didn't see in yourself. And I often wonder