What To Do When Life Won't Let Up | Sebene Selassie and Jeff Warren

>> This is the 10% Happier podcast. I'm >> This is the 10% Happier podcast. I'm [music] Dan Harris. Hello everybody. How we doing? We've got Hello everybody. How we doing? We've got a fascinating and often very funny a fascinating and often very funny a fascinating and often very funny discussion today and we cover a lot of discussion today and we cover a lot of discussion today and we cover a lot of ground. ground. ground. How can you be cool with literally How can you be cool with literally How can you be cool with literally anything that happens? anything that happens? anything that happens? Does everything happen for a reason? Is Does everything happen for a reason? Is Does everything happen for a reason? Is there any truth to that old cliche? there any truth to that old cliche? there any truth to that old cliche? We also take your voicemails with We also take your voicemails with We also take your voicemails with questions on work-life balance, questions on work-life balance, questions on work-life balance, obsessive thinking, and meditation obsessive thinking, and meditation obsessive thinking, and meditation versus napping. versus napping. versus napping. This episode is part of an occasional This episode is part of an occasional This episode is part of an occasional series we do here on the show called series we do here on the show called series we do here on the show called Meditation Party. It features two of my Meditation Party. It features two of my Meditation Party. It features two of my old friends, Jeff Warren and Seb E. old friends, Jeff Warren and Seb E. old friends, Jeff Warren and Seb E. Selassie. If you are not familiar with Selassie. If you are not familiar with Selassie. If you are not familiar with those guys, here's a little bit more those guys, here's a little bit more those guys, here's a little bit more information about them. Seb describes information about them. Seb describes information about them. Seb describes herself as a writer, teacher, and herself as a writer, teacher, and herself as a writer, teacher, and immigrant weirdo. She is the author of a immigrant weirdo. She is the author of a immigrant weirdo. She is the author of a great book called You Belong. She's great book called You Belong. She's great book called You Belong. She's based in Brooklyn based in Brooklyn based in Brooklyn in NYC. Jeff Warren is also a writer and in NYC. Jeff Warren is also a writer and in NYC. Jeff Warren is also a writer and meditation teacher. He and I co-wrote a meditation teacher. He and I co-wrote a meditation teacher. He and I co-wrote a book called Meditation for Fidgety book called Meditation for Fidgety book called Meditation for Fidgety Skeptics and he hosts his own podcast Skeptics and he hosts his own podcast Skeptics and he hosts his own podcast called The Mind Bod Adventure Pod. Jeff called The Mind Bod Adventure Pod. Jeff called The Mind Bod Adventure Pod. Jeff is based in Toronto. He's my favorite is based in Toronto. He's my favorite is based in Toronto. He's my favorite Canadian as I often say. Canadian as I often say. Canadian as I often say. Three quick housekeeping notes before we Three quick housekeeping notes before we Three quick housekeeping notes before we dive in. dive in. dive in. First, this conversation first aired First, this conversation first aired First, this conversation first aired back in 2024, but we're bringing it back back in 2024, but we're bringing it back back in 2024, but we're bringing it back because it's really good as you will because it's really good as you will because it's really good as you will hear. Second, if this episode leaves you hear. Second, if this episode leaves you hear. Second, if this episode leaves you wanting more, wanting more, wanting more, I've got good news for you. We're doing I've got good news for you. We're doing I've got good news for you. We're doing a three-day meditation party retreat IRL a three-day meditation party retreat IRL a three-day meditation party retreat IRL at the Omega Institute in Rhinebeck, New at the Omega Institute in Rhinebeck, New at the Omega Institute in Rhinebeck, New York. It'll be going down October 16th York. It'll be going down October 16th York. It'll be going down October 16th through the 18th, so it's a weekend through the 18th, so it's a weekend through the 18th, so it's a weekend event. It's really fun. We teach a bunch event. It's really fun. We teach a bunch event. It's really fun. We teach a bunch of different flavors of meditation. We of different flavors of meditation. We of different flavors of meditation. We take a lot of questions from the crowd take a lot of questions from the crowd take a lot of questions from the crowd and there's also plenty of time to just and there's also plenty of time to just and there's also plenty of time to just chill and socialize, play pickleball, chill and socialize, play pickleball, chill and socialize, play pickleball, whatever you want to do. We even do a whatever you want to do. We even do a whatever you want to do. We even do a dance party. dance party. dance party. You will find a link to register right You will find a link to register right You will find a link to register right there in the show notes or you can just there in the show notes or you can just there in the show notes or you can just go to eomega.org. go to eomega.org. go to eomega.org. Third thing to say and then I'll shut Third thing to say and then I'll shut Third thing to say and then I'll shut up. Jeff and Seb are two of the featured up. Jeff and Seb are two of the featured up. Jeff and Seb are two of the featured teachers over on my newish meditation teachers over on my newish meditation teachers over on my newish meditation app, which is called 10% with Dan app, which is called 10% with Dan app, which is called 10% with Dan Harris. Harris. Harris. I know I know I know looking at the news these days, you can looking at the news these days, you can looking at the news these days, you can feel quite powerless in the face of feel quite powerless in the face of feel quite powerless in the face of world events. Like what can you do about world events. Like what can you do about world events. Like what can you do about it? My view is that taking care of your it? My view is that taking care of your it? My view is that taking care of your own mind is actually essential. It's not own mind is actually essential. It's not own mind is actually essential. It's not self-indulgent. It's a community service self-indulgent. It's a community service self-indulgent. It's a community service because it allows you to respond sanely. because it allows you to respond sanely. because it allows you to respond sanely. So over on the app, we've got a growing So over on the app, we've got a growing So over on the app, we've got a growing library of meditations to help you train library of meditations to help you train library of meditations to help you train your brain with teachers like Seb and your brain with teachers like Seb and your brain with teachers like Seb and Jeff, but we also have created a Jeff, but we also have created a Jeff, but we also have created a community, a whole community with chat community, a whole community with chat community, a whole community with chat groups and weekly live meditation and groups and weekly live meditation and groups and weekly live meditation and Q&A sessions because the research is Q&A sessions because the research is Q&A sessions because the research is very clear that one of the best ways to very clear that one of the best ways to very clear that one of the best ways to create an abiding habit is to do it in create an abiding habit is to do it in create an abiding habit is to do it in the carpool lane. the carpool lane. the carpool lane. So you can join the party if you go over So you can join the party if you go over So you can join the party if you go over to danharris.com. The app is free for to danharris.com. The app is free for to danharris.com. The app is free for the first two weeks, so you can try the first two weeks, so you can try the first two weeks, so you can try before you buy and if you can't afford before you buy and if you can't afford before you buy and if you can't afford it, just let us know, we'll give you a it, just let us know, we'll give you a it, just let us know, we'll give you a free subscription, no questions asked. free subscription, no questions asked. free subscription, no questions asked. Okay, we'll get started with Seb E. Okay, we'll get started with Seb E. Okay, we'll get started with Seb E. Selassie and Jeff Warren right after Selassie and Jeff Warren right after Selassie and Jeff Warren right after this. Seb E. Selassie, Jeff Warren, welcome Seb E. Selassie, Jeff Warren, welcome back to the show. back to the show. back to the show. Thanks, Dan. Great to be here. Good to Thanks, Dan. Great to be here. Good to Thanks, Dan. Great to be here. Good to be here, Dan. I should have said welcome be here, Dan. I should have said welcome be here, Dan. I should have said welcome to the party. I'm saying it now. to the party. I'm saying it now. to the party. I'm saying it now. All right. So segment one, we generally All right. So segment one, we generally All right. So segment one, we generally talk about talk about talk about we've been roughly calling it the [ __ ] we've been roughly calling it the [ __ ] we've been roughly calling it the [ __ ] over time, but it's these are all works over time, but it's these are all works over time, but it's these are all works in progress, the titles, but it's in progress, the titles, but it's in progress, the titles, but it's generally time for us to complain about generally time for us to complain about generally time for us to complain about [ __ ] And I I talked to you guys about [ __ ] And I I talked to you guys about [ __ ] And I I talked to you guys about this before we started rolling. I've this before we started rolling. I've this before we started rolling. I've been thinking a lot about something you been thinking a lot about something you been thinking a lot about something you said to me, Seb, or you have said to me said to me, Seb, or you have said to me said to me, Seb, or you have said to me several times. several times. several times. In fact, the last meditation party In fact, the last meditation party In fact, the last meditation party episode we did, episode we did, episode we did, which was from the retreat that we did which was from the retreat that we did which was from the retreat that we did in October of 2023, the last episode in October of 2023, the last episode in October of 2023, the last episode that we posted was some snippets from that we posted was some snippets from that we posted was some snippets from that retreat and one of the first things that retreat and one of the first things that retreat and one of the first things we talked about in that episode was this we talked about in that episode was this we talked about in that episode was this tattoo you got that says trust life. And tattoo you got that says trust life. And tattoo you got that says trust life. And I remember, if I'm honest and you won't I remember, if I'm honest and you won't I remember, if I'm honest and you won't be surprised, seeing that for the first be surprised, seeing that for the first be surprised, seeing that for the first time and thinking, "What the [ __ ] does time and thinking, "What the [ __ ] does time and thinking, "What the [ __ ] does that mean? Like what does that even that mean? Like what does that even that mean? Like what does that even mean?" You know, like that just seems mean?" You know, like that just seems mean?" You know, like that just seems like, you know, empty words. But then I like, you know, empty words. But then I like, you know, empty words. But then I this is always what happens to me when this is always what happens to me when this is always what happens to me when I'm dismissive. It has become like a I'm dismissive. It has become like a I'm dismissive. It has become like a earworm for me and something I've been earworm for me and something I've been earworm for me and something I've been thinking about a lot. I've had a lot of thinking about a lot. I've had a lot of thinking about a lot. I've had a lot of work stress for the last couple of years work stress for the last couple of years work stress for the last couple of years and and and in complaining to you about the work in complaining to you about the work in complaining to you about the work stress in the past, Seb, you have stress in the past, Seb, you have stress in the past, Seb, you have brought up trust life and [snorts] brought up trust life and [snorts] brought up trust life and [snorts] I think and I apologize now, I think I think and I apologize now, I think I think and I apologize now, I think historically I've not really taken it in historically I've not really taken it in historically I've not really taken it in and I still don't know what it means, and I still don't know what it means, and I still don't know what it means, which is why I'm on this long ramble which is why I'm on this long ramble which is why I'm on this long ramble right now because I want to hear you right now because I want to hear you right now because I want to hear you talk about it. But I have been talk about it. But I have been talk about it. But I have been interested to explore what maybe it interested to explore what maybe it interested to explore what maybe it means. You know, maybe there's a reason means. You know, maybe there's a reason means. You know, maybe there's a reason why I've got work stress because it's why I've got work stress because it's why I've got work stress because it's the thing I should be working on. And the thing I should be working on. And the thing I should be working on. And yet I I hesitate a little bit because yet I I hesitate a little bit because yet I I hesitate a little bit because that seems to dip over into the magical that seems to dip over into the magical that seems to dip over into the magical like the universe is serving me up the like the universe is serving me up the like the universe is serving me up the thing I need to work on and I'm not thing I need to work on and I'm not thing I need to work on and I'm not convinced the universe works that way, convinced the universe works that way, convinced the universe works that way, although I'm open to it. although I'm open to it. although I'm open to it. Anyway, enough out of me. I'd love to Anyway, enough out of me. I'd love to Anyway, enough out of me. I'd love to hear your responses and also like how hear your responses and also like how hear your responses and also like how you apply it in your own life. Mhm. you apply it in your own life. Mhm. you apply it in your own life. Mhm. Yeah, thank you. Yeah, thank you. Yeah, thank you. First of all, I want to give credit to First of all, I want to give credit to First of all, I want to give credit to Loss Sarmiento, who's been on the show Loss Sarmiento, who's been on the show Loss Sarmiento, who's been on the show before and you know, I don't know if you before and you know, I don't know if you before and you know, I don't know if you know them, Jeff. I I know them. I've know them, Jeff. I I know them. I've know them, Jeff. I I know them. I've never met them, but I know them never met them, but I know them never met them, but I know them professionally, yeah. So this is their professionally, yeah. So this is their professionally, yeah. So this is their motto for life and they had asked me if motto for life and they had asked me if motto for life and they had asked me if I had sort of a mantra or motto that I I had sort of a mantra or motto that I I had sort of a mantra or motto that I live by and I thought about it and I I live by and I thought about it and I I live by and I thought about it and I I don't really, but now I've appropriated don't really, but now I've appropriated don't really, but now I've appropriated theirs. theirs. theirs. And [laughter] so And [laughter] so And [laughter] so trust life comes from them. I think it trust life comes from them. I think it trust life comes from them. I think it comes from the universe, but ultimately comes from the universe, but ultimately comes from the universe, but ultimately it came to me from [laughter] them. it came to me from [laughter] them. it came to me from [laughter] them. And it's just been sort of a guiding And it's just been sort of a guiding And it's just been sort of a guiding post. I mean, I tattooed it onto my arm post. I mean, I tattooed it onto my arm post. I mean, I tattooed it onto my arm because of all of the challenges that because of all of the challenges that because of all of the challenges that have been thrown my way for have been thrown my way for have been thrown my way for >> [clears throat] >> [clears throat] >> [clears throat] >> many, many years, maybe since I got to >> many, many years, maybe since I got to >> many, many years, maybe since I got to this planet in some ways. this planet in some ways. this planet in some ways. But definitely in the past few years, But definitely in the past few years, But definitely in the past few years, I've just had a tsunami of challenges, I've just had a tsunami of challenges, I've just had a tsunami of challenges, of health challenges, of relationship of health challenges, of relationship of health challenges, of relationship challenges. I've spoken about that on challenges. I've spoken about that on challenges. I've spoken about that on this show before. At the same time, my this show before. At the same time, my this show before. At the same time, my life is really beautiful and I have a life is really beautiful and I have a life is really beautiful and I have a lot of lot of lot of resources and privileges and support and resources and privileges and support and resources and privileges and support and love and community including you both love and community including you both love and community including you both and and and that feels like a disservice to only that feels like a disservice to only that feels like a disservice to only look at the challenges and look at the challenges and look at the challenges and feel like life is against me somehow or feel like life is against me somehow or feel like life is against me somehow or the universe is the universe is the universe is out to get me in some way. out to get me in some way. out to get me in some way. Trust life allows me to Trust life allows me to Trust life allows me to be with and this is the practice, right? be with and this is the practice, right? be with and this is the practice, right? Be with what's happening with some Be with what's happening with some Be with what's happening with some measure of allowing, measure of allowing, measure of allowing, having the flexibility to move with the having the flexibility to move with the having the flexibility to move with the challenges. So it's not about denying challenges. So it's not about denying challenges. So it's not about denying the challenges and trying to paint them the challenges and trying to paint them the challenges and trying to paint them over with rainbows and kittens. over with rainbows and kittens. over with rainbows and kittens. So it's it's really meeting what's there So it's it's really meeting what's there So it's it's really meeting what's there and the multitude of feelings, which and the multitude of feelings, which and the multitude of feelings, which sometimes I have trouble with. You know, sometimes I have trouble with. You know, sometimes I have trouble with. You know, it's hard. Last year, I think I spent a it's hard. Last year, I think I spent a it's hard. Last year, I think I spent a lot of time lot of time lot of time really in shock about the end of my really in shock about the end of my really in shock about the end of my marriage and not able to fully process marriage and not able to fully process marriage and not able to fully process and that's probably some wisdom to to and that's probably some wisdom to to and that's probably some wisdom to to have some titration to be able to feel have some titration to be able to feel have some titration to be able to feel the feelings when I was ready to feel the feelings when I was ready to feel the feelings when I was ready to feel them. them. them. But that's also about trusting life and But that's also about trusting life and But that's also about trusting life and allowing the experience, but really keep allowing the experience, but really keep allowing the experience, but really keep moving towards the freedom, the joy, and moving towards the freedom, the joy, and moving towards the freedom, the joy, and the love that's already here. the love that's already here. the love that's already here. So that's sort of been my orientation to So that's sort of been my orientation to So that's sort of been my orientation to trust life. It's not about saying that trust life. It's not about saying that trust life. It's not about saying that everything is perfect or everything is perfect or everything is perfect or definitely not happy all the time, but definitely not happy all the time, but definitely not happy all the time, but there's some way that I can see that there's some way that I can see that there's some way that I can see that there are there are there are balancing forces all the time and balancing forces all the time and balancing forces all the time and I I really feel like it is something I I really feel like it is something I I really feel like it is something that we can take into not only our that we can take into not only our that we can take into not only our personal reality, but into personal reality, but into personal reality, but into what's happening in our collective right what's happening in our collective right what's happening in our collective right now, too. now, too. now, too. Really being able to feel all the Really being able to feel all the Really being able to feel all the feelings and have our responses to feelings and have our responses to feelings and have our responses to what's happening and also move towards what's happening and also move towards what's happening and also move towards whatever can support us in making the whatever can support us in making the whatever can support us in making the change that we need to make and taking change that we need to make and taking change that we need to make and taking care of ourselves, taking care of our care of ourselves, taking care of our care of ourselves, taking care of our community, trying to support with the community, trying to support with the community, trying to support with the positive things that we want to see in positive things that we want to see in positive things that we want to see in the world. Is it your view that there's the world. Is it your view that there's the world. Is it your view that there's a metaphysical or magical component here a metaphysical or magical component here a metaphysical or magical component here where I the phrase I'm about to utter where I the phrase I'm about to utter where I the phrase I'm about to utter catches in my throat in some ways catches in my throat in some ways catches in my throat in some ways because I think it's often used because I think it's often used because I think it's often used in unthinking rote ways, but everything in unthinking rote ways, but everything in unthinking rote ways, but everything happens for a reason. Do you think of happens for a reason. Do you think of happens for a reason. Do you think of trust life as existing within that zone? Why are you laughing? You're looking at Why are you laughing? You're looking at each other and laughing. each other and laughing. each other and laughing. Because I think that Jeff and I share a Because I think that Jeff and I share a Because I think that Jeff and I share a love of some systems of love of some systems of love of some systems of understanding and knowledge that lean understanding and knowledge that lean understanding and knowledge that lean towards this and there is a lot of towards this and there is a lot of towards this and there is a lot of debate and even controversy even within debate and even controversy even within debate and even controversy even within something like astrology, which is one something like astrology, which is one something like astrology, which is one of the main systems that I use, of the main systems that I use, of the main systems that I use, about the nature of free will and about the nature of free will and about the nature of free will and determined futures and you know, there's determined futures and you know, there's determined futures and you know, there's there's a lot of conversation about there's a lot of conversation about there's a lot of conversation about that. But yes, there is that. But yes, there is that. But yes, there is there are there are there are long studied, tested models and systems long studied, tested models and systems long studied, tested models and systems of understanding how life plays out that of understanding how life plays out that of understanding how life plays out that inform my inform my inform my belief in trust life as a living belief in trust life as a living belief in trust life as a living philosophy. Yes. And we should do a philosophy. Yes. And we should do a philosophy. Yes. And we should do a whole show about astrology. I don't you whole show about astrology. I don't you whole show about astrology. I don't you know, it's like know, it's like know, it's like >> [laughter] >> [laughter] >> [laughter] >> I I I'm careful about talking about >> I I I'm careful about talking about >> I I I'm careful about talking about this. I mean, you know, if anybody just this. I mean, you know, if anybody just this. I mean, you know, if anybody just looked at my Substack, they know that looked at my Substack, they know that looked at my Substack, they know that I'm all about astrology, but it's hard I'm all about astrology, but it's hard I'm all about astrology, but it's hard to talk about it in polite company or in to talk about it in polite company or in to talk about it in polite company or in the public because there's so there's so the public because there's so there's so the public because there's so there's so much misunderstanding. You know, like much misunderstanding. You know, like much misunderstanding. You know, like people think that astrology is just sun people think that astrology is just sun people think that astrology is just sun signs and astrology is actually very signs and astrology is actually very signs and astrology is actually very complicated math. complicated math. complicated math. And so if you don't want to go into the And so if you don't want to go into the And so if you don't want to go into the depths of it, you're just going to have depths of it, you're just going to have depths of it, you're just going to have this it's the way people thought about this it's the way people thought about this it's the way people thought about meditation for, you know, decades in in meditation for, you know, decades in in meditation for, you know, decades in in Western scientific Western scientific Western scientific communities. communities. communities. I do I to bring you in at some point, I do I to bring you in at some point, I do I to bring you in at some point, Jeff. So I'm I'm I'm really happy to be Jeff. So I'm I'm I'm really happy to be Jeff. So I'm I'm I'm really happy to be a uh fly on the wall here. a uh fly on the wall here. a uh fly on the wall here. >> [laughter] >> That fly will get swatted at some point, >> That fly will get swatted at some point, just just to be clear. I probably should just just to be clear. I probably should just just to be clear. I probably should say this again to you and both of you say this again to you and both of you say this again to you and both of you cuz I'm watching you choose your words cuz I'm watching you choose your words cuz I'm watching you choose your words very carefully, which is very carefully, which is very carefully, which is uncharacteristic uh in a good way. You uncharacteristic uh in a good way. You uncharacteristic uh in a good way. You don't have to be careful around me. You don't have to be careful around me. You don't have to be careful around me. You might be projecting out into whoever's might be projecting out into whoever's might be projecting out into whoever's listening and worrying about what listening and worrying about what listening and worrying about what they're thinking, but I'm they're thinking, but I'm they're thinking, but I'm I operate under the Joseph Goldstein, I operate under the Joseph Goldstein, I operate under the Joseph Goldstein, and he got this from Samuel Coleridge, and he got this from Samuel Coleridge, and he got this from Samuel Coleridge, willing suspension of disbelief. What willing suspension of disbelief. What willing suspension of disbelief. What the [ __ ] do I know? I don't know the [ __ ] do I know? I don't know the [ __ ] do I know? I don't know anything. I come at things skeptically, anything. I come at things skeptically, anything. I come at things skeptically, but I I'm not judging you negatively for but I I'm not judging you negatively for but I I'm not judging you negatively for believing in something that can't be or believing in something that can't be or believing in something that can't be or having a suspicion of of something that having a suspicion of of something that having a suspicion of of something that can't be proved because science may not can't be proved because science may not can't be proved because science may not have caught up to it yet. So, have caught up to it yet. So, have caught up to it yet. So, don't hold yourself back for me. don't hold yourself back for me. don't hold yourself back for me. It's not I'm holding myself back from It's not I'm holding myself back from It's not I'm holding myself back from you because we we've had this you because we we've had this you because we we've had this conversation before. conversation before. conversation before. >> It's more that we would need so much >> It's more that we would need so much >> It's more that we would need so much more time and probably an expert in the more time and probably an expert in the more time and probably an expert in the fourth chair to really break down fourth chair to really break down fourth chair to really break down the complexity of astrology. It's not the complexity of astrology. It's not the complexity of astrology. It's not just astrology, there are other systems. just astrology, there are other systems. just astrology, there are other systems. And the the debates around it and the And the the debates around it and the And the the debates around it and the pushback, and I don't feel knowledgeable pushback, and I don't feel knowledgeable pushback, and I don't feel knowledgeable enough to sort of make that argument enough to sort of make that argument enough to sort of make that argument here. But I've done enough of my own here. But I've done enough of my own here. But I've done enough of my own homework to be able to study it without homework to be able to study it without homework to be able to study it without those that skepticism, right? those that skepticism, right? those that skepticism, right? But if I had to whittle what you're But if I had to whittle what you're But if I had to whittle what you're saying down, it's something along the saying down, it's something along the saying down, it's something along the lines of yes, I 7A view the trust life lines of yes, I 7A view the trust life lines of yes, I 7A view the trust life mantra through the lens of some degree mantra through the lens of some degree mantra through the lens of some degree of mystery and magic that I do think the of mystery and magic that I do think the of mystery and magic that I do think the universe is giving me what I need to universe is giving me what I need to universe is giving me what I need to work with. And yes, and that is in some work with. And yes, and that is in some work with. And yes, and that is in some ways, dependent upon your study of ways, dependent upon your study of ways, dependent upon your study of things like astrology. Is that a rough things like astrology. Is that a rough things like astrology. Is that a rough fair summary? fair summary? fair summary? >> exactly right. Yes. And I would say, >> exactly right. Yes. And I would say, >> exactly right. Yes. And I would say, just as somebody who doesn't yet know just as somebody who doesn't yet know just as somebody who doesn't yet know whether astrology and related fields of whether astrology and related fields of whether astrology and related fields of human endeavor are actually accurate in human endeavor are actually accurate in human endeavor are actually accurate in any way, it seems like you could any way, it seems like you could any way, it seems like you could practice trust life without practice trust life without practice trust life without necessarily buying into the necessarily buying into the necessarily buying into the fate {slash} destiny or universe giving fate {slash} destiny or universe giving fate {slash} destiny or universe giving you what you want aspect of it. For me, you what you want aspect of it. For me, you what you want aspect of it. For me, trusting life is has been useful in trusting life is has been useful in trusting life is has been useful in within the context of my own travails within the context of my own travails within the context of my own travails just to think of like whether it's I'm just to think of like whether it's I'm just to think of like whether it's I'm getting this these challenges because I getting this these challenges because I getting this these challenges because I need them, that's one thing, but they're need them, that's one thing, but they're need them, that's one thing, but they're here, so why fight against them here, so why fight against them here, so why fight against them unnecessarily, and why not view them as unnecessarily, and why not view them as unnecessarily, and why not view them as tests that are worthy of taking and tests that are worthy of taking and tests that are worthy of taking and passing and challenges that are worthy passing and challenges that are worthy passing and challenges that are worthy of taking on. of taking on. of taking on. Yes, and that's the most important skill Yes, and that's the most important skill Yes, and that's the most important skill to build, actually, is that attitude to build, actually, is that attitude to build, actually, is that attitude towards all of life and experience that towards all of life and experience that towards all of life and experience that well, if it's happening, it's happening. well, if it's happening, it's happening. well, if it's happening, it's happening. There isn't a sort of it's meant to There isn't a sort of it's meant to There isn't a sort of it's meant to happen, but it is happening. And so, to happen, but it is happening. And so, to happen, but it is happening. And so, to be to be in contention with it is be to be in contention with it is be to be in contention with it is bananas. bananas. bananas. And serves no one and nothing. And serves no one and nothing. And serves no one and nothing. >> Exactly. Okay, so I'm a big giant banana >> Exactly. Okay, so I'm a big giant banana >> Exactly. Okay, so I'm a big giant banana smoothie because I'm in contention with smoothie because I'm in contention with smoothie because I'm in contention with a lot of this stuff. a lot of this stuff. a lot of this stuff. Um and yet I that's why I think why Um and yet I that's why I think why Um and yet I that's why I think why trust life keeps weaseling its way into trust life keeps weaseling its way into trust life keeps weaseling its way into my consciousness. my consciousness. my consciousness. >> could help you, Dan. Yeah. Yeah. >> [snorts] >> [snorts] >> [snorts] >> I'm kind of in between the two of you. I >> I'm kind of in between the two of you. I >> I'm kind of in between the two of you. I think of it primarily as an attitude, think of it primarily as an attitude, think of it primarily as an attitude, but I'll build on that. Like, the basic but I'll build on that. Like, the basic but I'll build on that. Like, the basic attitude for me is this is the attitude for me is this is the attitude for me is this is the curriculum. curriculum. curriculum. This is the This is the thing I say to This is the This is the thing I say to This is the This is the thing I say to myself. I don't say trust life, I say myself. I don't say trust life, I say myself. I don't say trust life, I say this is the curriculum because this is this is the curriculum because this is this is the curriculum because this is the curriculum life is giving me moment the curriculum life is giving me moment the curriculum life is giving me moment by moment, and I can't deny it because by moment, and I can't deny it because by moment, and I can't deny it because it's right here. And in the past, I have it's right here. And in the past, I have it's right here. And in the past, I have spent a lot of time fighting the spent a lot of time fighting the spent a lot of time fighting the curriculum. I do not want to learn this curriculum. I do not want to learn this curriculum. I do not want to learn this lesson now. I'm not ready. I don't have lesson now. I'm not ready. I don't have lesson now. I'm not ready. I don't have the capacity. [laughter] the capacity. [laughter] the capacity. [laughter] It's too bad, and I've been run over by It's too bad, and I've been run over by It's too bad, and I've been run over by the curriculum, but it is still the the curriculum, but it is still the the curriculum, but it is still the curriculum. And now I just have um I can curriculum. And now I just have um I can curriculum. And now I just have um I can really feel there's been a sea change really feel there's been a sea change really feel there's been a sea change the past sort of year in my life, you the past sort of year in my life, you the past sort of year in my life, you know, with the intense challenges of know, with the intense challenges of know, with the intense challenges of parenting. parenting. parenting. They're amplified by the kind of They're amplified by the kind of They're amplified by the kind of neurodivergent piece of both my wife and neurodivergent piece of both my wife and neurodivergent piece of both my wife and I being um having different kinds of I being um having different kinds of I being um having different kinds of nervous systems that get easily blown nervous systems that get easily blown nervous systems that get easily blown out under the stresses of parenting, and out under the stresses of parenting, and out under the stresses of parenting, and uh so there's lots of overwhelm. And and uh so there's lots of overwhelm. And and uh so there's lots of overwhelm. And and then to say nothing of the global then to say nothing of the global then to say nothing of the global situation, which is just prayed so situation, which is just prayed so situation, which is just prayed so heavily and hugely. It's constantly on heavily and hugely. It's constantly on heavily and hugely. It's constantly on my mind, constantly on my heart, and my mind, constantly on my heart, and my mind, constantly on my heart, and so just to put that out there, I know so just to put that out there, I know so just to put that out there, I know Seb pointed to it to it seems grotesque Seb pointed to it to it seems grotesque Seb pointed to it to it seems grotesque to talk about trust life or that somehow to talk about trust life or that somehow to talk about trust life or that somehow things are meant to happen as they're things are meant to happen as they're things are meant to happen as they're happening when there's so much tragedy happening when there's so much tragedy happening when there's so much tragedy and horror happening right now. And yet, and horror happening right now. And yet, and horror happening right now. And yet, this is the curriculum because this is this is the curriculum because this is this is the curriculum because this is the curriculum that life is giving us the curriculum that life is giving us the curriculum that life is giving us right now. And so, when we accept that right now. And so, when we accept that right now. And so, when we accept that this is here, that, you know, obviously this is here, that, you know, obviously this is here, that, you know, obviously the the follow-through is that it can the the follow-through is that it can the the follow-through is that it can lead to an increased capacity to respond lead to an increased capacity to respond lead to an increased capacity to respond in more intelligent ways. And the in more intelligent ways. And the in more intelligent ways. And the collective practice of continually collective practice of continually collective practice of continually saying, for me, this is the curriculum saying, for me, this is the curriculum saying, for me, this is the curriculum this is the curriculum of opening to it, this is the curriculum of opening to it, this is the curriculum of opening to it, of letting it be here. It's let me see of letting it be here. It's let me see of letting it be here. It's let me see each of these different challenges as each of these different challenges as each of these different challenges as the thing that I needed to learn to get the thing that I needed to learn to get the thing that I needed to learn to get me to the next level of what I can give me to the next level of what I can give me to the next level of what I can give back. And so, I wouldn't take back a back. And so, I wouldn't take back a back. And so, I wouldn't take back a single one of them, a single one of my single one of them, a single one of my single one of them, a single one of my uh you know, suicidal periods, my uh you know, suicidal periods, my uh you know, suicidal periods, my intense physical injuries, my you know, intense physical injuries, my you know, intense physical injuries, my you know, different personal traumas and things different personal traumas and things different personal traumas and things that have happened because every one of that have happened because every one of that have happened because every one of them has forced me to look at and learn them has forced me to look at and learn them has forced me to look at and learn something about this conundrum that is something about this conundrum that is something about this conundrum that is now. And this is where it does get now. And this is where it does get now. And this is where it does get mystical or you know, however you want mystical or you know, however you want mystical or you know, however you want to put it, the longer I live, the more to put it, the longer I live, the more to put it, the longer I live, the more there's a sense of coherence to that. there's a sense of coherence to that. there's a sense of coherence to that. The more certain things that have The more certain things that have The more certain things that have happened in the past, challenges that happened in the past, challenges that happened in the past, challenges that I've had to work with, they make sense I've had to work with, they make sense I've had to work with, they make sense now from this place of more maturity, of now from this place of more maturity, of now from this place of more maturity, of more integration, and it's as if they more integration, and it's as if they more integration, and it's as if they were all selected somehow. You know, were all selected somehow. You know, were all selected somehow. You know, it's like the organic mysterious process it's like the organic mysterious process it's like the organic mysterious process of life has created a kind of it's hard of life has created a kind of it's hard of life has created a kind of it's hard to even talk about this, but there's a to even talk about this, but there's a to even talk about this, but there's a kind of a coherence and a logic that kind of a coherence and a logic that kind of a coherence and a logic that makes meaningful sense. And I feel like makes meaningful sense. And I feel like makes meaningful sense. And I feel like I live more and more inside that. And I live more and more inside that. And I live more and more inside that. And that comes from that view of seeing that that comes from that view of seeing that that comes from that view of seeing that this is the curriculum. But do you see this is the curriculum. But do you see this is the curriculum. But do you see what I'm saying with the higher level what I'm saying with the higher level what I'm saying with the higher level thing? It's not um yes, these are the thing? It's not um yes, these are the thing? It's not um yes, these are the things that happen, and these are the things that happen, and these are the things that happen, and these are the things that you're supposed to have things that you're supposed to have things that you're supposed to have learned. And yet, the kinds of learned. And yet, the kinds of learned. And yet, the kinds of challenges that I face now, it's as if I challenges that I face now, it's as if I challenges that I face now, it's as if I were ideally trained by my past to meet were ideally trained by my past to meet were ideally trained by my past to meet them. And not just in myself, but in the them. And not just in myself, but in the them. And not just in myself, but in the what I see in in the people around me in what I see in in the people around me in what I see in in the people around me in my community. And my community. And my community. And so that's that's a kind of trusting so that's that's a kind of trusting so that's that's a kind of trusting life. life. life. And this points to seeing your own life And this points to seeing your own life And this points to seeing your own life as a spiritual path. You know, it's the as a spiritual path. You know, it's the as a spiritual path. You know, it's the conversation that Seb and I had on the conversation that Seb and I had on the conversation that Seb and I had on the way up here around being your own way up here around being your own way up here around being your own teacher and choosing to relate to all teacher and choosing to relate to all teacher and choosing to relate to all the things that you've that have the things that you've that have the things that you've that have happened in your life as your teachers. happened in your life as your teachers. happened in your life as your teachers. And all the people you have met to begin And all the people you have met to begin And all the people you have met to begin to put you into that position of true, I to put you into that position of true, I to put you into that position of true, I don't know what you want to call it, uh don't know what you want to call it, uh don't know what you want to call it, uh responsibility, autonomy, centering you responsibility, autonomy, centering you responsibility, autonomy, centering you in your life as your own teacher. in your life as your own teacher. in your life as your own teacher. I do see what you're saying that you I I do see what you're saying that you I I do see what you're saying that you I think I see what you're saying, which is think I see what you're saying, which is think I see what you're saying, which is that this is the curriculum, which I that this is the curriculum, which I that this is the curriculum, which I love, by the way. That's a tattoo in and love, by the way. That's a tattoo in and love, by the way. That's a tattoo in and of itself. Um of itself. Um of itself. Um is a great is a great is a great MO for any sentient being, and you can MO for any sentient being, and you can MO for any sentient being, and you can use it just as an equanimity practice. use it just as an equanimity practice. use it just as an equanimity practice. This is what's happening right now. Can This is what's happening right now. Can This is what's happening right now. Can I be cool with it? Whatever is I be cool with it? Whatever is I be cool with it? Whatever is happening. And the higher level, which I happening. And the higher level, which I happening. And the higher level, which I think is the phrase you used, is think is the phrase you used, is think is the phrase you used, is optional, which is that over time, you optional, which is that over time, you optional, which is that over time, you might come to see that there is might come to see that there is might come to see that there is something magical, mysterious, something magical, mysterious, something magical, mysterious, metaphysical about it, but that's up to metaphysical about it, but that's up to metaphysical about it, but that's up to you. Yeah, it's up to you. And all and you. Yeah, it's up to you. And all and you. Yeah, it's up to you. And all and also, even if you don't even need to go also, even if you don't even need to go also, even if you don't even need to go to the metaphysical place, like the to the metaphysical place, like the to the metaphysical place, like the thing I hear again and again, and I see thing I hear again and again, and I see thing I hear again and again, and I see again and again, is someone meets a life again and again, is someone meets a life again and again, is someone meets a life challenge challenge challenge and they've decided to turn it into and they've decided to turn it into and they've decided to turn it into someone else's healing. You know, someone else's healing. You know, someone else's healing. You know, whether it's your kid dealing with a whether it's your kid dealing with a whether it's your kid dealing with a rare illness, and you suddenly create a rare illness, and you suddenly create a rare illness, and you suddenly create a parent support group around it. Or you, parent support group around it. Or you, parent support group around it. Or you, you know, whatever it is, you see it you know, whatever it is, you see it you know, whatever it is, you see it again and again. It's the way we make again and again. It's the way we make again and again. It's the way we make meaning of our lives is to take the meaning of our lives is to take the meaning of our lives is to take the thing that was challenging and transform thing that was challenging and transform thing that was challenging and transform it. That's how you make meaning out of it. That's how you make meaning out of it. That's how you make meaning out of your own suffering. You transform it your own suffering. You transform it your own suffering. You transform it into something that you can then pass on into something that you can then pass on into something that you can then pass on to somebody else in some way. And I just to somebody else in some way. And I just to somebody else in some way. And I just see that played out again and again and see that played out again and again and see that played out again and again and again. And that's the same thing I would again. And that's the same thing I would again. And that's the same thing I would describe as that sense of coherence, the describe as that sense of coherence, the describe as that sense of coherence, the sense of now the arc of your life has sense of now the arc of your life has sense of now the arc of your life has there's more meaning to it because of there's more meaning to it because of there's more meaning to it because of those things. those things. those things. You know, if they didn't happen, it You know, if they didn't happen, it You know, if they didn't happen, it wouldn't have that. wouldn't have that. wouldn't have that. Yeah, you asked me last night if I Yeah, you asked me last night if I Yeah, you asked me last night if I regretted something about the way I regretted something about the way I regretted something about the way I responded to my cancer early on, and I responded to my cancer early on, and I responded to my cancer early on, and I can't even comprehend the idea of regret can't even comprehend the idea of regret can't even comprehend the idea of regret anymore because anymore because anymore because it happened. it happened. it happened. You know, that that that's just that's You know, that that that's just that's You know, that that that's just that's the nature of the reality I'm in. Maybe the nature of the reality I'm in. Maybe the nature of the reality I'm in. Maybe in a parallel universe it didn't happen in a parallel universe it didn't happen in a parallel universe it didn't happen that way, but that's how it happened, that way, but that's how it happened, that way, but that's how it happened, and and and I don't think I could understand the I don't think I could understand the I don't think I could understand the lessons I'm learning now then. lessons I'm learning now then. lessons I'm learning now then. Right. Right. Right. >> to experience everything that I >> to experience everything that I >> to experience everything that I experienced to be at the point where experienced to be at the point where experienced to be at the point where I am now, where I can say, oh, I really I am now, where I can say, oh, I really I am now, where I can say, oh, I really need to work on control. And I looked at need to work on control. And I looked at need to work on control. And I looked at that years ago, but I'm at the point that years ago, but I'm at the point that years ago, but I'm at the point where I am now able to release control where I am now able to release control where I am now able to release control and fear and all of the, you know, my and fear and all of the, you know, my and fear and all of the, you know, my bugaboos in the way that I need to bugaboos in the way that I need to bugaboos in the way that I need to release them now. release them now. release them now. You know, it's making me think I You know, it's making me think I You know, it's making me think I sometimes I think about the effect of sometimes I think about the effect of sometimes I think about the effect of practice, the effects of practice in practice, the effects of practice in practice, the effects of practice in life as these three parts. life as these three parts. life as these three parts. And they're kind of like different time And they're kind of like different time And they're kind of like different time scales. So, the effect, say like you do scales. So, the effect, say like you do scales. So, the effect, say like you do a meditation, there's an effect in the a meditation, there's an effect in the a meditation, there's an effect in the moment where, you know, you can be moment where, you know, you can be moment where, you know, you can be feeling tense or you can be feeling feeling tense or you can be feeling feeling tense or you can be feeling bereft, and you can do a practice of a bereft, and you can do a practice of a bereft, and you can do a practice of a few minutes or and it can actually shift few minutes or and it can actually shift few minutes or and it can actually shift things a little bit. You feel more open, things a little bit. You feel more open, things a little bit. You feel more open, you feel more settled. And so, there is you feel more settled. And so, there is you feel more settled. And so, there is an effect in the moment that's really an effect in the moment that's really an effect in the moment that's really valuable. And sometimes people valuable. And sometimes people valuable. And sometimes people who don't understand meditation, they who don't understand meditation, they who don't understand meditation, they think it's all about the effect of the think it's all about the effect of the think it's all about the effect of the moment, you know. But we know that more moment, you know. But we know that more moment, you know. But we know that more attention by, you know, more experienced attention by, you know, more experienced attention by, you know, more experienced teachers is that the effect over the teachers is that the effect over the teachers is that the effect over the second scale, which is the effect over second scale, which is the effect over second scale, which is the effect over months and years, you know, where you're months and years, you know, where you're months and years, you know, where you're training your nervous system in a sense training your nervous system in a sense training your nervous system in a sense to be permanently more open, more to be permanently more open, more to be permanently more open, more available, more sensitive, more available, more sensitive, more available, more sensitive, more responsive. So, we understand that to be responsive. So, we understand that to be responsive. So, we understand that to be true, too, is that this is the scale of true, too, is that this is the scale of true, too, is that this is the scale of like habit change, but there is this like habit change, but there is this like habit change, but there is this other scale and that's the scale of your other scale and that's the scale of your other scale and that's the scale of your whole life. And this is the what I would whole life. And this is the what I would whole life. And this is the what I would call the kind of spiritual dimension of call the kind of spiritual dimension of call the kind of spiritual dimension of practice in some way. practice in some way. practice in some way. And it's you practice And it's you practice And it's you practice and the more you're practicing, the more and the more you're practicing, the more and the more you're practicing, the more you start to feel like you're coming you start to feel like you're coming you start to feel like you're coming into relationship with the whole, the into relationship with the whole, the into relationship with the whole, the whole of your life, the whole arc of whole of your life, the whole arc of whole of your life, the whole arc of your life having a meaning, the whole your life having a meaning, the whole your life having a meaning, the whole arc of the that your network, the arc of the that your network, the arc of the that your network, the community connections, the whole arc of community connections, the whole arc of community connections, the whole arc of the planet, uh just existence itself, the planet, uh just existence itself, the planet, uh just existence itself, whatever you want to describe, there's whatever you want to describe, there's whatever you want to describe, there's this sense in which this sense in which this sense in which it gets more and more integrated into it gets more and more integrated into it gets more and more integrated into what feels like one thing that you're in what feels like one thing that you're in what feels like one thing that you're in and there's no words to I'm kind of and there's no words to I'm kind of and there's no words to I'm kind of trying to point to what it is, but this trying to point to what it is, but this trying to point to what it is, but this is where I think practice goes and I is where I think practice goes and I is where I think practice goes and I think different people will talk about think different people will talk about think different people will talk about it in different way, but I think trust it in different way, but I think trust it in different way, but I think trust life is one way to talk about it. life is one way to talk about it. life is one way to talk about it. Isn't there a way to understand that Isn't there a way to understand that Isn't there a way to understand that third part without any and again, I hate third part without any and again, I hate third part without any and again, I hate I hate to be the guy who keeps doing I hate to be the guy who keeps doing I hate to be the guy who keeps doing this, but without anything this, but without anything this, but without anything >> so. mysterious. I mean, obviously >> so. mysterious. I mean, obviously >> so. mysterious. I mean, obviously there's a lot of mystery in it. But the there's a lot of mystery in it. But the there's a lot of mystery in it. But the answer is of course there is because answer is of course there is because answer is of course there is because there's a way for every single human there's a way for every single human there's a way for every single human being on the planet to come to that being on the planet to come to that being on the planet to come to that understanding and they're going to come understanding and they're going to come understanding and they're going to come to it in their own way. And for some it to it in their own way. And for some it to it in their own way. And for some it won't have anything to do with those won't have anything to do with those won't have anything to do with those things. It'll be seen entirely through things. It'll be seen entirely through things. It'll be seen entirely through an ecological lens or through uh a an ecological lens or through uh a an ecological lens or through uh a science lens or through a some science lens or through a some science lens or through a some humanistic lens and it's complete in and humanistic lens and it's complete in and humanistic lens and it's complete in and of itself. That's the point I'm making. of itself. That's the point I'm making. of itself. That's the point I'm making. You don't need to buy into anyone's You don't need to buy into anyone's You don't need to buy into anyone's cosmology to come to that place. You cosmology to come to that place. You cosmology to come to that place. You have to make it your own. have to make it your own. have to make it your own. But people do that. But people do that. But people do that. >> Yeah, I mean, any science class will get >> Yeah, I mean, any science class will get >> Yeah, I mean, any science class will get you to the fact that we're all you to the fact that we're all you to the fact that we're all connected. We're all part of a whole. I connected. We're all part of a whole. I connected. We're all part of a whole. I mean Yeah, when I hear an ecologist talk mean Yeah, when I hear an ecologist talk mean Yeah, when I hear an ecologist talk about and people talking about the about and people talking about the about and people talking about the environmental movement, I just hear it's environmental movement, I just hear it's environmental movement, I just hear it's the same thing coming back, just spoken the same thing coming back, just spoken the same thing coming back, just spoken about in a slightly different way. about in a slightly different way. about in a slightly different way. I love that, the three tiers and and I love that, the three tiers and and I love that, the three tiers and and that place of this third spiritual that place of this third spiritual that place of this third spiritual understanding is so we were talking a understanding is so we were talking a understanding is so we were talking a little bit about this that, you know, little bit about this that, you know, little bit about this that, you know, sometimes people misunderstand the word sometimes people misunderstand the word sometimes people misunderstand the word ease as sort of a fruit of the practice ease as sort of a fruit of the practice ease as sort of a fruit of the practice because they mistake it with easy. But because they mistake it with easy. But because they mistake it with easy. But it's not that things aren't it's not that things aren't it's not that things aren't uncomfortable or there's no suffering uncomfortable or there's no suffering uncomfortable or there's no suffering left. You know, the end of suffering left. You know, the end of suffering left. You know, the end of suffering doesn't mean pain goes away. doesn't mean pain goes away. doesn't mean pain goes away. But you have a relationship to it that's But you have a relationship to it that's But you have a relationship to it that's more easeful and that more easeful and that more easeful and that yes, doesn't need a cosmology, but I yes, doesn't need a cosmology, but I yes, doesn't need a cosmology, but I would make the case for these other ways would make the case for these other ways would make the case for these other ways of knowing and seeing the whole that, of knowing and seeing the whole that, of knowing and seeing the whole that, you know, have enchantment and soulment you know, have enchantment and soulment you know, have enchantment and soulment of the universe and mystery. They're of the universe and mystery. They're of the universe and mystery. They're also just fun. Yeah, totally. That's also just fun. Yeah, totally. That's also just fun. Yeah, totally. That's I would much I would much I would much >> one case for Yeah, I'd much rather >> one case for Yeah, I'd much rather >> one case for Yeah, I'd much rather live in an enchanted magical universe I live in an enchanted magical universe I live in an enchanted magical universe I want to live in a I want to live in a want to live in a I want to live in a want to live in a I want to live in a dead ball. dead ball. dead ball. >> [laughter] >> [laughter] >> [laughter] >> We live in a dead We live in a dead >> We live in a dead We live in a dead >> We live in a dead We live in a dead ball. And when you when you tap into ball. And when you when you tap into ball. And when you when you tap into these very these very these very tried and tested methods of tried and tested methods of tried and tested methods of understanding enchantment, it's like understanding enchantment, it's like understanding enchantment, it's like they give you a window into Oh my god, they give you a window into Oh my god, they give you a window into Oh my god, isn't that so cool? Like you can see isn't that so cool? Like you can see isn't that so cool? Like you can see these patterns and you can see all of these patterns and you can see all of these patterns and you can see all of these these these things that you can't see with your things that you can't see with your things that you can't see with your ordinary knowing and senses. See, this ordinary knowing and senses. See, this ordinary knowing and senses. See, this is this really really important piece is this really really important piece is this really really important piece because, you know, we first come into because, you know, we first come into because, you know, we first come into it, you think this is about what's it, you think this is about what's it, you think this is about what's objectively true or real. And for me as objectively true or real. And for me as objectively true or real. And for me as I've gotten older in my life, I I think I've gotten older in my life, I I think I've gotten older in my life, I I think I still interested in that question. I I still interested in that question. I I still interested in that question. I think more and more it's impossible to think more and more it's impossible to think more and more it's impossible to answer that question. What I can answer answer that question. What I can answer answer that question. What I can answer is what is actually subjectively is what is actually subjectively is what is actually subjectively healthy for me and when I choose to healthy for me and when I choose to healthy for me and when I choose to believe in an more interactive reality believe in an more interactive reality believe in an more interactive reality filled with mystery and wonder in which filled with mystery and wonder in which filled with mystery and wonder in which I'm like I'm playing inside it, my life I'm like I'm playing inside it, my life I'm like I'm playing inside it, my life is vastly more pleasurable. It's more I is vastly more pleasurable. It's more I is vastly more pleasurable. It's more I have more capacity to help others than have more capacity to help others than have more capacity to help others than if I believe in a universe where I I if I believe in a universe where I I if I believe in a universe where I I can't know anyone else. Everything is can't know anyone else. Everything is can't know anyone else. Everything is just a kind of uh rigid billiard ball just a kind of uh rigid billiard ball just a kind of uh rigid billiard ball structure or whatever it is. Like that's structure or whatever it is. Like that's structure or whatever it is. Like that's just having lived in a world like that, just having lived in a world like that, just having lived in a world like that, it doesn't feel it doesn't feel it full it doesn't feel it doesn't feel it full it doesn't feel it doesn't feel it full of possibility to me. So, I think that of possibility to me. So, I think that of possibility to me. So, I think that there is this basic freedom that we're there is this basic freedom that we're there is this basic freedom that we're allowed, which is to choose. And William allowed, which is to choose. And William allowed, which is to choose. And William James used to talk about this. He called James used to talk about this. He called James used to talk about this. He called it the will to believe. We're allowed to it the will to believe. We're allowed to it the will to believe. We're allowed to choose what we believe. And our beliefs choose what we believe. And our beliefs choose what we believe. And our beliefs have a profound found effect on our have a profound found effect on our have a profound found effect on our happiness and it's something that happiness and it's something that happiness and it's something that everyone needs to look at in their life. everyone needs to look at in their life. everyone needs to look at in their life. And it's something that really when I And it's something that really when I And it's something that really when I was in a more science-y frame, I would was in a more science-y frame, I would was in a more science-y frame, I would have rejected outright as being like, have rejected outright as being like, have rejected outright as being like, who cares what you believe? What matters who cares what you believe? What matters who cares what you believe? What matters is what's true. But now more and more, I is what's true. But now more and more, I is what's true. But now more and more, I mean, the belief that the tools of mean, the belief that the tools of mean, the belief that the tools of science can show you exactly this to be science can show you exactly this to be science can show you exactly this to be true is itself a belief, you know, so I true is itself a belief, you know, so I true is itself a belief, you know, so I think having a stance of humility and think having a stance of humility and think having a stance of humility and then being interested in what your then being interested in what your then being interested in what your relationship is with the world is very relationship is with the world is very relationship is with the world is very very important. I saw a Benjamin very important. I saw a Benjamin very important. I saw a Benjamin Franklin quote today. Franklin quote today. Franklin quote today. He said the older I get, the less I He said the older I get, the less I He said the older I get, the less I trust my own judgment. trust my own judgment. trust my own judgment. Seb, can you talk a little bit about how Seb, can you talk a little bit about how Seb, can you talk a little bit about how you've been applying the trust life you've been applying the trust life you've been applying the trust life mantra in your own life recently? mantra in your own life recently? mantra in your own life recently? Yeah, so I um you know, I'm pretty open Yeah, so I um you know, I'm pretty open Yeah, so I um you know, I'm pretty open about my cancer stuff in the past few about my cancer stuff in the past few about my cancer stuff in the past few years had really tough diagnosis and years had really tough diagnosis and years had really tough diagnosis and treatment and treatment and treatment and it was getting better, but now it's it was getting better, but now it's it was getting better, but now it's starting to turn. So, my you know, the starting to turn. So, my you know, the starting to turn. So, my you know, the kind of tests and scans are showing that kind of tests and scans are showing that kind of tests and scans are showing that I'm much worse off right now than I was I'm much worse off right now than I was I'm much worse off right now than I was 6 months ago. It's not the worst it's 6 months ago. It's not the worst it's 6 months ago. It's not the worst it's ever been, but it's going in the wrong ever been, but it's going in the wrong ever been, but it's going in the wrong direction. direction. direction. So, I've had to really um work with this So, I've had to really um work with this So, I've had to really um work with this and not immediately go into the fear and and not immediately go into the fear and and not immediately go into the fear and control, which is control, which is control, which is how fear shows up a lot for me, sort of how fear shows up a lot for me, sort of how fear shows up a lot for me, sort of that like speedy amphetamine control that like speedy amphetamine control that like speedy amphetamine control energy of like, okay, now I need to like energy of like, okay, now I need to like energy of like, okay, now I need to like plan everything and control everything plan everything and control everything plan everything and control everything and do all the things to boost my immune and do all the things to boost my immune and do all the things to boost my immune system or system or system or research all the weird sounding research all the weird sounding research all the weird sounding diagnoses and um mutations of my diagnoses and um mutations of my diagnoses and um mutations of my genetic genetic genetic codes of cancer and codes of cancer and codes of cancer and that's not helpful. that's not helpful. that's not helpful. You know, [laughter] it maybe it it was You know, [laughter] it maybe it it was You know, [laughter] it maybe it it was helpful in the past helpful in the past helpful in the past and I I don't regret that because it and I I don't regret that because it and I I don't regret that because it helped me sort of manage where I was, helped me sort of manage where I was, helped me sort of manage where I was, but now I'm in in a very different place but now I'm in in a very different place but now I'm in in a very different place where I do need to lean into this where I do need to lean into this where I do need to lean into this trusting of life and trusting how things trusting of life and trusting how things trusting of life and trusting how things are and acknowledging the multitude of are and acknowledging the multitude of are and acknowledging the multitude of realities of my life. Yes, there's realities of my life. Yes, there's realities of my life. Yes, there's cancer, there's challenges with um in my cancer, there's challenges with um in my cancer, there's challenges with um in my body from the treatments I've had and I body from the treatments I've had and I body from the treatments I've had and I I work with those, you know, whether I work with those, you know, whether I work with those, you know, whether it's pain or fatigue or immune it's pain or fatigue or immune it's pain or fatigue or immune suppression, but I also have a lot of suppression, but I also have a lot of suppression, but I also have a lot of amazing things going on and I really amazing things going on and I really amazing things going on and I really want to not drain my attention away from want to not drain my attention away from want to not drain my attention away from those by those by those by worry and obsessive thinking and worry and obsessive thinking and worry and obsessive thinking and planning. So, it's really finding that planning. So, it's really finding that planning. So, it's really finding that measure of not rejecting the feelings or measure of not rejecting the feelings or measure of not rejecting the feelings or the realities of what's what's here and the realities of what's what's here and the realities of what's what's here and what's coming, but also not having that what's coming, but also not having that what's coming, but also not having that take over all of these other aspects of take over all of these other aspects of take over all of these other aspects of life that are also here and true. life that are also here and true. life that are also here and true. I hear a combination of techniques there I hear a combination of techniques there I hear a combination of techniques there and I I could be you'll correct me if and I I could be you'll correct me if and I I could be you'll correct me if I'm wrong here, but there's a nice I'm wrong here, but there's a nice I'm wrong here, but there's a nice little mantra from Joseph Goldstein, the little mantra from Joseph Goldstein, the little mantra from Joseph Goldstein, the great meditation teacher, who says a great meditation teacher, who says a great meditation teacher, who says a thing you can say to yourself in the thing you can say to yourself in the thing you can say to yourself in the when you're in the grips of something when you're in the grips of something when you're in the grips of something hard is um hard is um hard is um it's okay. By which he does not mean it's okay. By which he does not mean it's okay. By which he does not mean everything's okay, but it's okay to feel everything's okay, but it's okay to feel everything's okay, but it's okay to feel this thing right now. So, I hear a this thing right now. So, I hear a this thing right now. So, I hear a combination of that plus just gratitude combination of that plus just gratitude combination of that plus just gratitude for the good stuff that is also there. for the good stuff that is also there. for the good stuff that is also there. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, and a lot of surrender. Like I've Yeah, and a lot of surrender. Like I've Yeah, and a lot of surrender. Like I've really been working with surrender really been working with surrender really been working with surrender because I've under start to understand because I've under start to understand because I've under start to understand more deeply how fear shows up as control more deeply how fear shows up as control more deeply how fear shows up as control for me. It's one of the ways. It's the for me. It's one of the ways. It's the for me. It's one of the ways. It's the main way it shows up for me. That main way it shows up for me. That main way it shows up for me. That surrendering and kind of lessening that surrendering and kind of lessening that surrendering and kind of lessening that grip of control. So, I put my trust in grip of control. So, I put my trust in grip of control. So, I put my trust in my oncologist, who's a wonderful person my oncologist, who's a wonderful person my oncologist, who's a wonderful person and a great oncologist to do what she and a great oncologist to do what she and a great oncologist to do what she does instead of trying to be on top of does instead of trying to be on top of does instead of trying to be on top of that data and information and consult that data and information and consult that data and information and consult with her and ask her questions and know with her and ask her questions and know with her and ask her questions and know what's happening, what's happening, what's happening, but I can take care of myself in the but I can take care of myself in the but I can take care of myself in the ways that are best for me to take care ways that are best for me to take care ways that are best for me to take care of myself. So, you know, my practice, of myself. So, you know, my practice, of myself. So, you know, my practice, taking care of myself in terms of my taking care of myself in terms of my taking care of myself in terms of my actual body and energy and making sure I actual body and energy and making sure I actual body and energy and making sure I get enough sleep and I'm eating well and get enough sleep and I'm eating well and get enough sleep and I'm eating well and I, you know, working with my trainer, I, you know, working with my trainer, I, you know, working with my trainer, what whatever it is I need to do what whatever it is I need to do what whatever it is I need to do and spending time with my friends and and spending time with my friends and and spending time with my friends and feeling supported and feeling love and feeling supported and feeling love and feeling supported and feeling love and experiencing joy. So, for me it's it's experiencing joy. So, for me it's it's experiencing joy. So, for me it's it's understanding myself, too. So, the it's understanding myself, too. So, the it's understanding myself, too. So, the it's okay and the gratitude are really okay and the gratitude are really okay and the gratitude are really important, but it's also knowing my important, but it's also knowing my important, but it's also knowing my patterns and being able to to work with patterns and being able to to work with patterns and being able to to work with them in ways that support me in the best them in ways that support me in the best them in ways that support me in the best way possible. So, it's okay gratitude way possible. So, it's okay gratitude way possible. So, it's okay gratitude plus like a a good owner's manual on plus like a a good owner's manual on plus like a a good owner's manual on your own mind body system. Yeah. Because your own mind body system. Yeah. Because your own mind body system. Yeah. Because somebody else's response to fear might somebody else's response to fear might somebody else's response to fear might be collapse, right? be collapse, right? be collapse, right? And that's okay, too, but then what do And that's okay, too, but then what do And that's okay, too, but then what do you need to do to make sure that that you need to do to make sure that that you need to do to make sure that that doesn't become the default and start to doesn't become the default and start to doesn't become the default and start to affect you negatively? affect you negatively? affect you negatively? Listening to you talk, I I did a little Listening to you talk, I I did a little Listening to you talk, I I did a little bit of the typical making about myself bit of the typical making about myself bit of the typical making about myself for a second. Um for a second. Um for a second. Um >> [laughter] >> [laughter] >> [laughter] >> You don't become an anchorman because >> You don't become an anchorman because >> You don't become an anchorman because you lack that propensity. Um you lack that propensity. Um you lack that propensity. Um I've made some oblique references to my I've made some oblique references to my I've made some oblique references to my professional stress over the last couple professional stress over the last couple professional stress over the last couple of years. of years. of years. And I think about it like And I think about it like And I think about it like it's interesting. I have a similar it's interesting. I have a similar it's interesting. I have a similar feeling about the last 2 years as feeling about the last 2 years as feeling about the last 2 years as I think I'm hearing coming through in I think I'm hearing coming through in I think I'm hearing coming through in your comments, which is the last 2 years your comments, which is the last 2 years your comments, which is the last 2 years have sucked on a number of levels and have sucked on a number of levels and have sucked on a number of levels and they've been two of the best years of my they've been two of the best years of my they've been two of the best years of my life. life. life. I don't think they've been great because I don't think they've been great because I don't think they've been great because of the shitty stuff, more that all the of the shitty stuff, more that all the of the shitty stuff, more that all the practices I've learned over the last 14, practices I've learned over the last 14, practices I've learned over the last 14, 15 years just are having compounding 15 years just are having compounding 15 years just are having compounding effects. And so, that is I think more effects. And so, that is I think more effects. And so, that is I think more true than the shittiness of the true than the shittiness of the true than the shittiness of the situation. Does that Does that make situation. Does that Does that make situation. Does that Does that make sense? Yeah, you see the fruits of your sense? Yeah, you see the fruits of your sense? Yeah, you see the fruits of your practice in a much practice in a much practice in a much deeper way when you're fertilized that deeper way when you're fertilized that deeper way when you're fertilized that tree well with a bunch of [ __ ] Yeah. tree well with a bunch of [ __ ] Yeah. tree well with a bunch of [ __ ] Yeah. Yes. [laughter] Yes. [laughter] Yes. [laughter] The greatest title for a Dharma book The greatest title for a Dharma book The greatest title for a Dharma book ever is I can't forget the name. It's ever is I can't forget the name. It's ever is I can't forget the name. It's Ajahn something. Ajahn something. Ajahn something. Who ordered this truckload of dung? Who ordered this truckload of dung? Who ordered this truckload of dung? >> [laughter] >> [laughter] >> [laughter] >> Ajahn Brahm. Ajahn Brahm. Okay. Great. >> Ajahn Brahm. Ajahn Brahm. Okay. Great. >> Ajahn Brahm. Ajahn Brahm. Okay. Great. Great book title. Great book title. Great book title. >> [music] >> [music] >> [music] >> Coming up, we're going to take your >> Coming up, we're going to take your >> Coming up, we're going to take your questions. We've got some great questions. We've got some great questions. We've got some great voicemails from listeners. One's about voicemails from listeners. One's about voicemails from listeners. One's about work-life balance. We've got one about work-life balance. We've got one about work-life balance. We've got one about obsessive thinking. I might have called obsessive thinking. I might have called obsessive thinking. I might have called that one in [music] with a ventriloquist that one in [music] with a ventriloquist that one in [music] with a ventriloquist we've also got one about a great we've also got one about a great we've also got one about a great question, meditation practice versus question, meditation practice versus question, meditation practice versus napping. Keep it here, much more napping. Keep it here, much more napping. Keep it here, much more meditation party coming up. Okay, welcome back to meditation party. Okay, welcome back to meditation party. We're going to take your voicemails now. We're going to take your voicemails now. We're going to take your voicemails now. We love these voicemails by the way. All We love these voicemails by the way. All We love these voicemails by the way. All right. The first call is from Sana and right. The first call is from Sana and right. The first call is from Sana and it's about work-life balance. it's about work-life balance. it's about work-life balance. Take a listen. So, I really love periods of my life So, I really love periods of my life where my softness flourishes, where I where my softness flourishes, where I where my softness flourishes, where I can be present, move more slowly, have can be present, move more slowly, have can be present, move more slowly, have more mindfulness, feel my feelings. more mindfulness, feel my feelings. more mindfulness, feel my feelings. Often this is during very small snippets Often this is during very small snippets Often this is during very small snippets of my life where I feel like I can of my life where I feel like I can of my life where I feel like I can cocoon. I can build a bubble around cocoon. I can build a bubble around cocoon. I can build a bubble around myself and my family to truly just enjoy myself and my family to truly just enjoy myself and my family to truly just enjoy and be. and be. and be. Then the remaining 95% of my life feels Then the remaining 95% of my life feels Then the remaining 95% of my life feels tough. tough. tough. Family crises, constant planning, to do, Family crises, constant planning, to do, Family crises, constant planning, to do, especially when you're you wear the hat especially when you're you wear the hat especially when you're you wear the hat of planning for your nuclear or your of planning for your nuclear or your of planning for your nuclear or your extended family, or you're in any sort extended family, or you're in any sort extended family, or you're in any sort of caregiving role. of caregiving role. of caregiving role. Uh work stress of managing and planning Uh work stress of managing and planning Uh work stress of managing and planning there, juggling commitments of being there, juggling commitments of being there, juggling commitments of being present and obligated to family and present and obligated to family and present and obligated to family and friends. Just saying it makes me exhausted. So, Just saying it makes me exhausted. So, how do you balance that too? How do you how do you balance that too? How do you how do you balance that too? How do you live a life more in flow? live a life more in flow? live a life more in flow? But how do you code-switch between that But how do you code-switch between that But how do you code-switch between that and and and like the intensity of being on and being like the intensity of being on and being like the intensity of being on and being in planning, orchestrating, doing mode in planning, orchestrating, doing mode in planning, orchestrating, doing mode for both work and motherhood and family for both work and motherhood and family for both work and motherhood and family responsibilities responsibilities responsibilities while wanting to be in soft mode, in while wanting to be in soft mode, in while wanting to be in soft mode, in flow with yourself, grateful, flow with yourself, grateful, flow with yourself, grateful, open-hearted, inquisitive, curious? open-hearted, inquisitive, curious? open-hearted, inquisitive, curious? I would love to know how to marry those I would love to know how to marry those I would love to know how to marry those two together better. two together better. two together better. I mean, I got there's an easy answer I mean, I got there's an easy answer I mean, I got there's an easy answer that, you know, suck it up, put your that, you know, suck it up, put your that, you know, suck it up, put your suit coat of armor on, and you know, suit coat of armor on, and you know, suit coat of armor on, and you know, life is meant to suck. life is meant to suck. life is meant to suck. >> Bear down. Bear down harder. >> Bear down. Bear down harder. >> Bear down. Bear down harder. What's the real answer, Jeffrey? I don't What's the real answer, Jeffrey? I don't What's the real answer, Jeffrey? I don't know there's a real answer. I I really know there's a real answer. I I really know there's a real answer. I I really appreciated the question though and the appreciated the question though and the appreciated the question though and the place from which it was delivered. She place from which it was delivered. She place from which it was delivered. She had a very had a very had a very awesome manner. But this is my life, so awesome manner. But this is my life, so awesome manner. But this is my life, so I mean, I think for me, the way I I can I mean, I think for me, the way I I can I mean, I think for me, the way I I can only just speak personally, the big big only just speak personally, the big big only just speak personally, the big big picture for me is that I have to just picture for me is that I have to just picture for me is that I have to just accept that there are times I'm going to accept that there are times I'm going to accept that there are times I'm going to be completely run over by my life, and be completely run over by my life, and be completely run over by my life, and often those are very long periods. And often those are very long periods. And often those are very long periods. And I'm not going to have the space and I'm not going to have the space and I'm not going to have the space and perspective to be at my best and perspective to be at my best and perspective to be at my best and responding responding responding perfectly, and I'm not going to feel at perfectly, and I'm not going to feel at perfectly, and I'm not going to feel at ease. And ease. And ease. And actually, when I actually, when I actually, when I come to that recognition, the I'll just come to that recognition, the I'll just come to that recognition, the I'll just I'll recommend a book here cuz this this I'll recommend a book here cuz this this I'll recommend a book here cuz this this kind of helped me get there. It's a kind of helped me get there. It's a kind of helped me get there. It's a popular popular popular psychology book about acceptance and psychology book about acceptance and psychology book about acceptance and commitment therapy called The Happiness commitment therapy called The Happiness commitment therapy called The Happiness Trap by like an Australian writer. Trap by like an Australian writer. Trap by like an Australian writer. Acceptance and commitment therapy is Acceptance and commitment therapy is Acceptance and commitment therapy is basically like repurposed mindfulness. basically like repurposed mindfulness. basically like repurposed mindfulness. But the the happiness trap is But the the happiness trap is But the the happiness trap is if you think that when you're unhappy, if you think that when you're unhappy, if you think that when you're unhappy, you shouldn't be unhappy cuz you need to you shouldn't be unhappy cuz you need to you shouldn't be unhappy cuz you need to be happy, that's the trap, you know, be happy, that's the trap, you know, be happy, that's the trap, you know, you're now living in a world where there you're now living in a world where there you're now living in a world where there has to be the condition of happiness for has to be the condition of happiness for has to be the condition of happiness for things to be okay. So, just accepting things to be okay. So, just accepting things to be okay. So, just accepting that there are going to be, you know, that there are going to be, you know, that there are going to be, you know, hard times when you're not happy and hard times when you're not happy and hard times when you're not happy and then times when you are happy is part of then times when you are happy is part of then times when you are happy is part of the outlook. But what's really the outlook. But what's really the outlook. But what's really interesting in that book that really interesting in that book that really interesting in that book that really helped me that I hadn't really thought helped me that I hadn't really thought helped me that I hadn't really thought about before was the commitment piece. about before was the commitment piece. about before was the commitment piece. And the commitment piece is basically And the commitment piece is basically And the commitment piece is basically saying saying saying at any moment there's an opportunity to at any moment there's an opportunity to at any moment there's an opportunity to move towards your values or move away move towards your values or move away move towards your values or move away from your values. And so in moments of from your values. And so in moments of from your values. And so in moments of extreme challenge where you're just extreme challenge where you're just extreme challenge where you're just getting run over by life, getting run over by life, getting run over by life, what I found was in a lot I had a what I found was in a lot I had a what I found was in a lot I had a background narration of like, this background narration of like, this background narration of like, this shouldn't be happening. This shouldn't shouldn't be happening. This shouldn't shouldn't be happening. This shouldn't be happening. I want to be happy or I I be happening. I want to be happy or I I be happening. I want to be happy or I I this these things shouldn't be happening this these things shouldn't be happening this these things shouldn't be happening or this stuff with my kids shouldn't be or this stuff with my kids shouldn't be or this stuff with my kids shouldn't be happening. But when instead I could say, happening. But when instead I could say, happening. But when instead I could say, you know what, this is happening and you know what, this is happening and you know what, this is happening and this challenge is building my resources this challenge is building my resources this challenge is building my resources to be with future challenges or there's to be with future challenges or there's to be with future challenges or there's a strength capacity training here that I a strength capacity training here that I a strength capacity training here that I can kind of feel or I can kind of do can kind of feel or I can kind of do can kind of feel or I can kind of do this thing where I flip it around and this thing where I flip it around and this thing where I flip it around and right in this moment when everything's right in this moment when everything's right in this moment when everything's falling apart, I can kind of see that falling apart, I can kind of see that falling apart, I can kind of see that this is actually moving me towards in this is actually moving me towards in this is actually moving me towards in the direction of just like gleeful the direction of just like gleeful the direction of just like gleeful flowing with it no matter what and flowing with it no matter what and flowing with it no matter what and dancing with it or whatever. Like, so at dancing with it or whatever. Like, so at dancing with it or whatever. Like, so at any moment you have this opportunity to any moment you have this opportunity to any moment you have this opportunity to kind of just just say, how can I kind of just just say, how can I kind of just just say, how can I experience this differently? I can't get experience this differently? I can't get experience this differently? I can't get away from the fact that this is away from the fact that this is away from the fact that this is extremely challenging. But is there a extremely challenging. But is there a extremely challenging. But is there a way I can make this the so it's moving way I can make this the so it's moving way I can make this the so it's moving me towards my values? Or maybe your me towards my values? Or maybe your me towards my values? Or maybe your value is so justice. Like I mean, I I value is so justice. Like I mean, I I value is so justice. Like I mean, I I can see more clearly this privation or can see more clearly this privation or can see more clearly this privation or this hard thing happening in the world this hard thing happening in the world this hard thing happening in the world or this injustice and that's moving me or this injustice and that's moving me or this injustice and that's moving me towards being able to speak out more towards being able to speak out more towards being able to speak out more strongly about it towards the future. Do strongly about it towards the future. Do strongly about it towards the future. Do you see what I mean? you see what I mean? you see what I mean? And since I've been implementing this, And since I've been implementing this, And since I've been implementing this, because I don't have the time to sort of because I don't have the time to sort of because I don't have the time to sort of lubricate my life with a formal lubricate my life with a formal lubricate my life with a formal practice, I just do not have that, what practice, I just do not have that, what practice, I just do not have that, what I'm doing is more like moment to moment I'm doing is more like moment to moment I'm doing is more like moment to moment applying this accept that yep, this is applying this accept that yep, this is applying this accept that yep, this is unhappiness, that's okay. How can I make unhappiness, that's okay. How can I make unhappiness, that's okay. How can I make this this this something that's moving me in a something that's moving me in a something that's moving me in a direction that I want to move in. And direction that I want to move in. And direction that I want to move in. And that makes all the difference. that makes all the difference. that makes all the difference. I love that. We've never done an episode I love that. We've never done an episode I love that. We've never done an episode on ACT, acceptance and commitment on ACT, acceptance and commitment on ACT, acceptance and commitment therapy. It's a thing I've mentioned in therapy. It's a thing I've mentioned in therapy. It's a thing I've mentioned in my presence quite a bit, so maybe we my presence quite a bit, so maybe we my presence quite a bit, so maybe we should get that happiness trap person on should get that happiness trap person on should get that happiness trap person on the show. As you were speaking, it the show. As you were speaking, it the show. As you were speaking, it reminds me of something that's helpful reminds me of something that's helpful reminds me of something that's helpful for me, which we actually talked about for me, which we actually talked about for me, which we actually talked about in the last episode briefly, the last in the last episode briefly, the last in the last episode briefly, the last episode that posted back in February episode that posted back in February episode that posted back in February that we'll put a link in the show notes that we'll put a link in the show notes that we'll put a link in the show notes if you want to check it out. if you want to check it out. if you want to check it out. Which is setting intentions, which you Which is setting intentions, which you Which is setting intentions, which you used a funny term when we were used a funny term when we were used a funny term when we were discussing it. You said initially you discussing it. You said initially you discussing it. You said initially you were just blanket annoyed by were just blanket annoyed by were just blanket annoyed by the notion of setting intentions, and I the notion of setting intentions, and I the notion of setting intentions, and I had the same I mean, this is a recurring had the same I mean, this is a recurring had the same I mean, this is a recurring theme. I was dismissive when I first theme. I was dismissive when I first theme. I was dismissive when I first heard of intention setting because it heard of intention setting because it heard of intention setting because it just struck me as like classic new age just struck me as like classic new age just struck me as like classic new age paplum. But actually, it's it's like paplum. But actually, it's it's like paplum. But actually, it's it's like Babe Ruth pointing out of the ballpark Babe Ruth pointing out of the ballpark Babe Ruth pointing out of the ballpark and saying, I'm going to hit this home and saying, I'm going to hit this home and saying, I'm going to hit this home run. And it's just setting the run. And it's just setting the run. And it's just setting the direction. And I think for somebody like direction. And I think for somebody like direction. And I think for somebody like Sana, who whose voicemail we just Sana, who whose voicemail we just Sana, who whose voicemail we just listened to, or anybody else who's busy, listened to, or anybody else who's busy, listened to, or anybody else who's busy, whether you have kids or not, and you whether you have kids or not, and you whether you have kids or not, and you find yourself in these moments of stress find yourself in these moments of stress find yourself in these moments of stress or overwhelm, if you've set an intention or overwhelm, if you've set an intention or overwhelm, if you've set an intention first thing in the morning, and first thing in the morning, and first thing in the morning, and hopefully, I found it very helpful to hopefully, I found it very helpful to hopefully, I found it very helpful to set it before anything I do if I can set it before anything I do if I can set it before anything I do if I can remember it, right? Before I meditate, remember it, right? Before I meditate, remember it, right? Before I meditate, before I exercise, before I go to bed, before I exercise, before I go to bed, before I exercise, before I go to bed, when I wake up. I would like to get when I wake up. I would like to get when I wake up. I would like to get better at setting it before even small better at setting it before even small better at setting it before even small things, brushing my teeth, whatever. And things, brushing my teeth, whatever. And things, brushing my teeth, whatever. And my intention is, I dedicate the benefit my intention is, I dedicate the benefit my intention is, I dedicate the benefit of whatever I'm doing now of whatever I'm doing now of whatever I'm doing now to all beings. to all beings. to all beings. Right? That That is, as I like to say, Right? That That is, as I like to say, Right? That That is, as I like to say, the view is so much better when you pull the view is so much better when you pull the view is so much better when you pull your head out of your ass. And that is your head out of your ass. And that is your head out of your ass. And that is the head out of ass removal mechanism the head out of ass removal mechanism the head out of ass removal mechanism for me on the regular. And to me, that for me on the regular. And to me, that for me on the regular. And to me, that sounds like commitment. Yeah, sounds like commitment. Yeah, sounds like commitment. Yeah, absolutely. I totally agree. And I'm absolutely. I totally agree. And I'm absolutely. I totally agree. And I'm just thinking that there's another just thinking that there's another just thinking that there's another piece, too. piece, too. piece, too. I think a lot about those transitions. I think a lot about those transitions. I think a lot about those transitions. When something is really hard and the When something is really hard and the When something is really hard and the next hard thing is coming, I think about next hard thing is coming, I think about next hard thing is coming, I think about what can I do in the moment to have more what can I do in the moment to have more what can I do in the moment to have more softness around this, just the words softness around this, just the words softness around this, just the words that she used, or more smoothness. Like, that she used, or more smoothness. Like, that she used, or more smoothness. Like, and it's kind of an equanimity practice. and it's kind of an equanimity practice. and it's kind of an equanimity practice. Can I It's like you're a DJ, you're Can I It's like you're a DJ, you're Can I It's like you're a DJ, you're trying to put two songs together, and trying to put two songs together, and trying to put two songs together, and then one is really slow and one is then one is really slow and one is then one is really slow and one is really fast, and you know it's not going really fast, and you know it's not going really fast, and you know it's not going to be well, but nevertheless, you do it to be well, but nevertheless, you do it to be well, but nevertheless, you do it the best you can to kind of match the the best you can to kind of match the the best you can to kind of match the beats together so you can kind of beats together so you can kind of beats together so you can kind of smoothly go through it. And for me, it's smoothly go through it. And for me, it's smoothly go through it. And for me, it's like, how can I suddenly decide to enjoy like, how can I suddenly decide to enjoy like, how can I suddenly decide to enjoy this moment in my body? How can I make this moment in my body? How can I make this moment in my body? How can I make my body feel more fluid or more sexy or my body feel more fluid or more sexy or my body feel more fluid or more sexy or more open or more supple in some way? more open or more supple in some way? more open or more supple in some way? And and just having that kind of And and just having that kind of And and just having that kind of intention can actually turn transform intention can actually turn transform intention can actually turn transform really challenging moments and really really challenging moments and really really challenging moments and really challenging periods into something very challenging periods into something very challenging periods into something very different. And so, I think the play part different. And so, I think the play part different. And so, I think the play part of that, like playing with implementing of that, like playing with implementing of that, like playing with implementing in-the-moment practices, that's in-the-moment practices, that's in-the-moment practices, that's definitely part of how I how I survive. definitely part of how I how I survive. definitely part of how I how I survive. I don't I don't know if you could get I don't I don't know if you could get I don't I don't know if you could get any sexier. That would be dangerous. any sexier. That would be dangerous. any sexier. That would be dangerous. Don't Don't Don't I'm worried. [laughter] I'm worried. [laughter] I'm worried. [laughter] I'm curious, Dan, how how is your like I'm curious, Dan, how how is your like I'm curious, Dan, how how is your like intention setting going? And how do you intention setting going? And how do you intention setting going? And how do you how do you remind yourself to do that or how do you remind yourself to do that or how do you remind yourself to do that or I mean, it's a little bit that's why I I mean, it's a little bit that's why I I mean, it's a little bit that's why I got a tattoo, uh FTBOAB, for the benefit got a tattoo, uh FTBOAB, for the benefit got a tattoo, uh FTBOAB, for the benefit of all beings, way more earnest than I of all beings, way more earnest than I of all beings, way more earnest than I generally am in my life. generally am in my life. generally am in my life. Uh there are so many people that brought Uh there are so many people that brought Uh there are so many people that brought me in this direction. Spring Washam is a me in this direction. Spring Washam is a me in this direction. Spring Washam is a teacher that teacher that teacher that she's a meditation teacher. She wanted she's a meditation teacher. She wanted she's a meditation teacher. She wanted me to get a tattoo on my chest, and I me to get a tattoo on my chest, and I me to get a tattoo on my chest, and I don't have that kind of courage. And don't have that kind of courage. And don't have that kind of courage. And also, Richie Davidson, who's an eminent also, Richie Davidson, who's an eminent also, Richie Davidson, who's an eminent neuroscientist at the University of neuroscientist at the University of neuroscientist at the University of Wisconsin, and he talks about how he Wisconsin, and he talks about how he Wisconsin, and he talks about how he he's very systematic of doing this he's very systematic of doing this he's very systematic of doing this intention before anything he does all intention before anything he does all intention before anything he does all day long. And he and I were speaking day long. And he and I were speaking day long. And he and I were speaking late 2023, and that's what kind of put late 2023, and that's what kind of put late 2023, and that's what kind of put this intention setting thing on steroids this intention setting thing on steroids this intention setting thing on steroids for me. And actually, we were talking for me. And actually, we were talking for me. And actually, we were talking late '22, late '22, late '22, and then 6 months later I got the and then 6 months later I got the and then 6 months later I got the tattoo, and I've just been trying to up tattoo, and I've just been trying to up tattoo, and I've just been trying to up my game for a while. my game for a while. my game for a while. And it's a little bit of faith, you And it's a little bit of faith, you And it's a little bit of faith, you know, I I don't know that I'm know, I I don't know that I'm know, I I don't know that I'm I'm I'm giving this a lot of time I'm I'm giving this a lot of time I'm I'm giving this a lot of time because it's cutting against, for me, a because it's cutting against, for me, a because it's cutting against, for me, a lot of wiring for selfishness. And by lot of wiring for selfishness. And by lot of wiring for selfishness. And by selfishness, I mean that in a kind of selfishness, I mean that in a kind of selfishness, I mean that in a kind of in a broad way. It's not just that I'm in a broad way. It's not just that I'm in a broad way. It's not just that I'm I'm not going to give you my five bucks I'm not going to give you my five bucks I'm not going to give you my five bucks if you ask for it's like a if you ask for it's like a if you ask for it's like a self-centeredness, self-centeredness, self-centeredness, a reversion to what's often called in a reversion to what's often called in a reversion to what's often called in neuroscience circles, the default mode neuroscience circles, the default mode neuroscience circles, the default mode thinking about myself or ruminating or thinking about myself or ruminating or thinking about myself or ruminating or worrying, and having a broader view, worrying, and having a broader view, worrying, and having a broader view, which is so helpful to me and everybody which is so helpful to me and everybody which is so helpful to me and everybody else around me. And of course, that's else around me. And of course, that's else around me. And of course, that's essentially the same thing on some deep essentially the same thing on some deep essentially the same thing on some deep level. And do you do you feel like it is level. And do you do you feel like it is level. And do you do you feel like it is I'm going back to the cosmology stuff, I'm going back to the cosmology stuff, I'm going back to the cosmology stuff, but do you feel like it is then having but do you feel like it is then having but do you feel like it is then having impact when you set that intention, or impact when you set that intention, or impact when you set that intention, or is it mostly for you to rewire? is it mostly for you to rewire? is it mostly for you to rewire? I'm not there yet. I'm open to it, but I I'm not there yet. I'm open to it, but I I'm not there yet. I'm open to it, but I I it's not what's going through my head. I it's not what's going through my head. I it's not what's going through my head. It's more like um It's more like um It's more like um it's not in the neighborhood of it's not in the neighborhood of it's not in the neighborhood of petitionary prayer for me. It's more petitionary prayer for me. It's more petitionary prayer for me. It's more like yes, I wish all beings could be like yes, I wish all beings could be like yes, I wish all beings could be free from suffering, and that's genuine free from suffering, and that's genuine free from suffering, and that's genuine wish, but I'm not sure that my wish is wish, but I'm not sure that my wish is wish, but I'm not sure that my wish is connected to any specific outcome, and connected to any specific outcome, and connected to any specific outcome, and I'm cool with that. The only outcome I'm cool with that. The only outcome I'm cool with that. The only outcome that I that I that I do have some attachment to is like can I do have some attachment to is like can I do have some attachment to is like can I make me more fluid and sexy like Jeff. make me more fluid and sexy like Jeff. make me more fluid and sexy like Jeff. But don't [laughter] you also like I But don't [laughter] you also like I But don't [laughter] you also like I mean you the intention of your work and mean you the intention of your work and mean you the intention of your work and you know you know you know >> Yes. >> Yes. >> Yes. that you want your work to benefit that you want your work to benefit that you want your work to benefit others. others. others. >> Yes. So I've gotten in my head many >> Yes. So I've gotten in my head many >> Yes. So I've gotten in my head many times about the selfish motivations in times about the selfish motivations in times about the selfish motivations in from for my work and then I try to from for my work and then I try to from for my work and then I try to remember that in my tattoo FTBOABA remember that in my tattoo FTBOABA remember that in my tattoo FTBOABA stands for all beings and I'm definitely stands for all beings and I'm definitely stands for all beings and I'm definitely part of that no matter how down on part of that no matter how down on part of that no matter how down on myself I might get and so myself I might get and so myself I might get and so that's an interesting dynamic tension that's an interesting dynamic tension that's an interesting dynamic tension too like wanting to profit in a broad too like wanting to profit in a broad too like wanting to profit in a broad sense from what I'm doing and also sense from what I'm doing and also sense from what I'm doing and also really keeping my eye on the prize which really keeping my eye on the prize which really keeping my eye on the prize which is genuinely being a benefit and so I is genuinely being a benefit and so I is genuinely being a benefit and so I get that wrong all the time but it is get that wrong all the time but it is get that wrong all the time but it is something I play with. something I play with. something I play with. Should we do another voicemail here? Should we do another voicemail here? Should we do another voicemail here? We've got We've got We've got a call that came in from a Glenn who is a call that came in from a Glenn who is a call that came in from a Glenn who is asking about something that hits home asking about something that hits home asking about something that hits home for me obsessive thinking or for me obsessive thinking or for me obsessive thinking or overthinking. overthinking. overthinking. Take it away Glenn. Take it away Glenn. Take it away Glenn. Hi, my name is Glenn and my question for Hi, my name is Glenn and my question for Hi, my name is Glenn and my question for Dan and the team is Dan and the team is Dan and the team is I'm sure that all of you have gone I'm sure that all of you have gone I'm sure that all of you have gone through where your mind constantly keeps through where your mind constantly keeps through where your mind constantly keeps turning different questions. I think Dan turning different questions. I think Dan turning different questions. I think Dan and you've brought it up before where and you've brought it up before where and you've brought it up before where maybe after the 14th or 15th time maybe after the 14th or 15th time maybe after the 14th or 15th time that your brain could stop thinking on a that your brain could stop thinking on a that your brain could stop thinking on a situation. I'm probably at 25 to 30 situation. I'm probably at 25 to 30 situation. I'm probably at 25 to 30 times times times either thinking of things I did or either thinking of things I did or either thinking of things I did or mainly trying to decide on different mainly trying to decide on different mainly trying to decide on different [clears throat] situations with my job [clears throat] situations with my job [clears throat] situations with my job or family. Just interested in how you or family. Just interested in how you or family. Just interested in how you guys guys guys if you've dealt with that issue of if you've dealt with that issue of if you've dealt with that issue of constant constant constant turnover turnover turnover of situations in your mind and of situations in your mind and of situations in your mind and have been able to solve that have been able to solve that have been able to solve that [clears throat] [clears throat] [clears throat] or at least uh or at least uh or at least uh make progress towards that. Thank you. Never. Never. I was just thinking poor bastard. I mean I was just thinking poor bastard. I mean I was just thinking poor bastard. I mean who deals with that? who deals with that? who deals with that? >> even? >> even? >> even? >> [laughter] >> [laughter] >> [laughter] [gasps] [gasps] [gasps] >> You know it's funny the first thing that >> You know it's funny the first thing that >> You know it's funny the first thing that came to me listening to Glenn is this came to me listening to Glenn is this came to me listening to Glenn is this practice that I don't remember the name practice that I don't remember the name practice that I don't remember the name of this scholar. He's a Buddhist studies of this scholar. He's a Buddhist studies of this scholar. He's a Buddhist studies scholar but an American white American scholar but an American white American scholar but an American white American who studies Khmer Buddhist practices. So who studies Khmer Buddhist practices. So who studies Khmer Buddhist practices. So these are Theravadan practices that come these are Theravadan practices that come these are Theravadan practices that come from Cambodia that grew out of the Khmer from Cambodia that grew out of the Khmer from Cambodia that grew out of the Khmer Rouge and you know the atrocities that Rouge and you know the atrocities that Rouge and you know the atrocities that happened in there. So Cambodian Buddhism happened in there. So Cambodian Buddhism happened in there. So Cambodian Buddhism was sort of shifted was sort of shifted was sort of shifted um by that period and this practice um by that period and this practice um by that period and this practice developed called stirring and stilling developed called stirring and stilling developed called stirring and stilling where these really intense and you can where these really intense and you can where these really intense and you can find them online maybe we can link to find them online maybe we can link to find them online maybe we can link to them these really intense them these really intense them these really intense almost singing but in this very almost singing but in this very almost singing but in this very deep soulful moving profound chants deep soulful moving profound chants deep soulful moving profound chants around suffering and the core teachings around suffering and the core teachings around suffering and the core teachings of Buddhism and they were meant to of Buddhism and they were meant to of Buddhism and they were meant to actually stir actually stir actually stir the emotion and stir the sentiments of the emotion and stir the sentiments of the emotion and stir the sentiments of these teachings and then you stilled these teachings and then you stilled these teachings and then you stilled into practice. into practice. into practice. And I remember when I first learned And I remember when I first learned And I remember when I first learned about that years ago I was so fascinated about that years ago I was so fascinated about that years ago I was so fascinated by that concept and realized that I by that concept and realized that I by that concept and realized that I could use stirring in various ways to could use stirring in various ways to could use stirring in various ways to help me then sit. So a lot of times when help me then sit. So a lot of times when help me then sit. So a lot of times when things are just really just the things are just really just the things are just really just the rumination is really strong or the rumination is really strong or the rumination is really strong or the emotion is really strong I'll dance and emotion is really strong I'll dance and emotion is really strong I'll dance and then I'll sit. then I'll sit. then I'll sit. >> [clears throat] >> [clears throat] >> [clears throat] >> Or I'll jump on my trampoline and then >> Or I'll jump on my trampoline and then >> Or I'll jump on my trampoline and then I'll sit and it's made such a huge I'll sit and it's made such a huge I'll sit and it's made such a huge difference for me rather than just difference for me rather than just difference for me rather than just trying to go to the cushion or for me to trying to go to the cushion or for me to trying to go to the cushion or for me to the mat cuz I do a lot of lying down. the mat cuz I do a lot of lying down. the mat cuz I do a lot of lying down. There's this way in which I honor that There's this way in which I honor that There's this way in which I honor that energy and I allow it to come and then I energy and I allow it to come and then I energy and I allow it to come and then I can more easily kind of be with it in a can more easily kind of be with it in a can more easily kind of be with it in a more spacious more spacious more spacious way and there's something energetic way and there's something energetic way and there's something energetic about that that that is is very powerful about that that that is is very powerful about that that that is is very powerful and and and there's a vocalization part of it that's there's a vocalization part of it that's there's a vocalization part of it that's part of it too. So I do tend to like part of it too. So I do tend to like part of it too. So I do tend to like play music and sing play music and sing play music and sing and dance and then sit. and dance and then sit. and dance and then sit. I think you're making me when you're I think you're making me when you're I think you're making me when you're describing this you're making me describing this you're making me describing this you're making me understand more clearly how I respond in understand more clearly how I respond in understand more clearly how I respond in those situations and because I'm hyper those situations and because I'm hyper those situations and because I'm hyper overthinker over ruminator in the Dan overthinker over ruminator in the Dan overthinker over ruminator in the Dan camp and I traditionally early on in my camp and I traditionally early on in my camp and I traditionally early on in my life I just didn't have a way to turn it life I just didn't have a way to turn it life I just didn't have a way to turn it off. I was I understand where Glenn's off. I was I understand where Glenn's off. I was I understand where Glenn's coming from. I just would go around and coming from. I just would go around and coming from. I just would go around and around and around and around and and then you know you do develop and then you know you do develop and then you know you do develop capacity through mindfulness to kind of capacity through mindfulness to kind of capacity through mindfulness to kind of watch or observe it and so much of it watch or observe it and so much of it watch or observe it and so much of it happens under the radar you don't even happens under the radar you don't even happens under the radar you don't even realize it's happening so being able to realize it's happening so being able to realize it's happening so being able to notice it can make a difference to begin notice it can make a difference to begin notice it can make a difference to begin to kind of pop out and sometimes you can to kind of pop out and sometimes you can to kind of pop out and sometimes you can just watch it and let it play out but just watch it and let it play out but just watch it and let it play out but often that's not enough. And it's to often that's not enough. And it's to often that's not enough. And it's to pick up Seb's point it's like there's a pick up Seb's point it's like there's a pick up Seb's point it's like there's a certain momentum of energy already there certain momentum of energy already there certain momentum of energy already there and in order to really meet that you and in order to really meet that you and in order to really meet that you need to meet that with action. need to meet that with action. need to meet that with action. And whether the action is external like And whether the action is external like And whether the action is external like you move your body you dance you jump you move your body you dance you jump you move your body you dance you jump around. What I often do is I have a kind around. What I often do is I have a kind around. What I often do is I have a kind of ritual when that's happening and my of ritual when that's happening and my of ritual when that's happening and my ritual is with the I Ching. ritual is with the I Ching. ritual is with the I Ching. I we've talked about the I Ching in the I we've talked about the I Ching in the I we've talked about the I Ching in the past here. Can you say what it is? Yeah past here. Can you say what it is? Yeah past here. Can you say what it is? Yeah the I Ching is a ancient Chinese kind of the I Ching is a ancient Chinese kind of the I Ching is a ancient Chinese kind of divination system. Some people talk divination system. Some people talk divination system. Some people talk about it the first computer and it's about it the first computer and it's about it the first computer and it's basically a kind of almost like little basically a kind of almost like little basically a kind of almost like little mini fortunes that you get. You get one mini fortunes that you get. You get one mini fortunes that you get. You get one of 64 sort of little pithy wise kind of of 64 sort of little pithy wise kind of of 64 sort of little pithy wise kind of framings of ways to kind of reframe a framings of ways to kind of reframe a framings of ways to kind of reframe a situation. They're all just blanket wise situation. They're all just blanket wise situation. They're all just blanket wise anyway because they kind of are steeped anyway because they kind of are steeped anyway because they kind of are steeped in kind of Daoist philosophy and and I in kind of Daoist philosophy and and I in kind of Daoist philosophy and and I find them quite appropriate to the find them quite appropriate to the find them quite appropriate to the situation but even if it wasn't that situation but even if it wasn't that situation but even if it wasn't that there wasn't appropriateness there's there wasn't appropriateness there's there wasn't appropriateness there's always something there that you can take always something there that you can take always something there that you can take away from it and just the act of doing away from it and just the act of doing away from it and just the act of doing that it just completely stops the that it just completely stops the that it just completely stops the rumination on it. I'm like okay cool. I rumination on it. I'm like okay cool. I rumination on it. I'm like okay cool. I don't need to know anything else than don't need to know anything else than don't need to know anything else than that that kind of gives me the framing I that that kind of gives me the framing I that that kind of gives me the framing I need. Because I also know the whole need. Because I also know the whole need. Because I also know the whole question of getting it right or wrong is question of getting it right or wrong is question of getting it right or wrong is an illusion. There is no getting it an illusion. There is no getting it an illusion. There is no getting it right or wrong. There's only what's right or wrong. There's only what's right or wrong. There's only what's happening in this moment. Like you just happening in this moment. Like you just happening in this moment. Like you just make a decision and then something make a decision and then something make a decision and then something happens and then you're in a new moment happens and then you're in a new moment happens and then you're in a new moment and there are new set of choices in and there are new set of choices in and there are new set of choices in front of you that you couldn't have front of you that you couldn't have front of you that you couldn't have anticipated even one moment back. So anticipated even one moment back. So anticipated even one moment back. So part of it is that I recognize I'm not part of it is that I recognize I'm not part of it is that I recognize I'm not going to get to the answer through the going to get to the answer through the going to get to the answer through the rumination most of the time. Not saying rumination most of the time. Not saying rumination most of the time. Not saying it doesn't happen on occasion. Most time it doesn't happen on occasion. Most time it doesn't happen on occasion. Most time it's just going around and around. So I it's just going around and around. So I it's just going around and around. So I just to stop the going around around I just to stop the going around around I just to stop the going around around I decide I know the answer. It's this and decide I know the answer. It's this and decide I know the answer. It's this and then that action stops the energy and then that action stops the energy and then that action stops the energy and then I can go on to the next thing and then I can go on to the next thing and then I can go on to the next thing and live my life and I use it all the time live my life and I use it all the time live my life and I use it all the time and I have zero kind of rumination stuff and I have zero kind of rumination stuff and I have zero kind of rumination stuff really anymore around there's nothing I really anymore around there's nothing I really anymore around there's nothing I can't stop that. Isn't to say I don't can't stop that. Isn't to say I don't can't stop that. Isn't to say I don't have still deep preoccupations that I have still deep preoccupations that I have still deep preoccupations that I wonder and and worry I do of course but wonder and and worry I do of course but wonder and and worry I do of course but that surface quality of like just being that surface quality of like just being that surface quality of like just being totally obsessed by it is totally obsessed by it is totally obsessed by it is it gets shifted. And it doesn't have to it gets shifted. And it doesn't have to it gets shifted. And it doesn't have to be an I Ching. Could be a tarot thing or be an I Ching. Could be a tarot thing or be an I Ching. Could be a tarot thing or it could be a sudden shouting something it could be a sudden shouting something it could be a sudden shouting something out. I mean I'm just having some kind of out. I mean I'm just having some kind of out. I mean I'm just having some kind of ritual some kind of thing that you do to ritual some kind of thing that you do to ritual some kind of thing that you do to express the energy of it to feel like express the energy of it to feel like express the energy of it to feel like there's a sense of finality and then to there's a sense of finality and then to there's a sense of finality and then to be able to move on is the move. be able to move on is the move. be able to move on is the move. I'll throw some other possible tactics I'll throw some other possible tactics I'll throw some other possible tactics out because I mean everybody's going to out because I mean everybody's going to out because I mean everybody's going to have different things that work for have different things that work for have different things that work for them. them. them. Along those lines Jenny Taitz is a Along those lines Jenny Taitz is a Along those lines Jenny Taitz is a clinical psychologist from the West clinical psychologist from the West clinical psychologist from the West Coast who was recently on the show and Coast who was recently on the show and Coast who was recently on the show and she recommends that when you're having she recommends that when you're having she recommends that when you're having repetitive thoughts sing them out loud. repetitive thoughts sing them out loud. repetitive thoughts sing them out loud. >> Oh love it. And it can get you to not >> Oh love it. And it can get you to not >> Oh love it. And it can get you to not take them so seriously. take them so seriously. take them so seriously. Couple of more mindfulness e things from Couple of more mindfulness e things from Couple of more mindfulness e things from Joseph Goldstein. One is just use a Joseph Goldstein. One is just use a Joseph Goldstein. One is just use a little mantra in your head of up and little mantra in your head of up and little mantra in your head of up and out. out. out. Just let it go. Up and out. And the Just let it go. Up and out. And the Just let it go. Up and out. And the other is other is other is and I think Glenn made a reference to and I think Glenn made a reference to and I think Glenn made a reference to this this this is this useful? Just you know is this is this useful? Just you know is this is this useful? Just you know is this useful? Do we need to be on as Glenn useful? Do we need to be on as Glenn useful? Do we need to be on as Glenn said number 25 of my run throughs of all said number 25 of my run throughs of all said number 25 of my run throughs of all the horrible things that might happen the horrible things that might happen the horrible things that might happen because of X or Y. So because of X or Y. So because of X or Y. So try any or all of those Glenn and try any or all of those Glenn and try any or all of those Glenn and others. others. others. Let's do one last voicemail. This is Let's do one last voicemail. This is Let's do one last voicemail. This is from Adriana. from Adriana. from Adriana. >> [gasps] >> [gasps] >> [gasps] >> It has to do with napping. >> It has to do with napping. >> It has to do with napping. Hi, it's Adriana from Washington DC. Hi, it's Adriana from Washington DC. Hi, it's Adriana from Washington DC. Around 2 or 3 in the afternoon I start Around 2 or 3 in the afternoon I start Around 2 or 3 in the afternoon I start feeling like feeling like feeling like a nap would be nice. a nap would be nice. a nap would be nice. But then I tell myself a meditation But then I tell myself a meditation But then I tell myself a meditation session would be session would be session would be more productive. more productive. more productive. Sometimes I sort of combine the two. Sometimes I sort of combine the two. Sometimes I sort of combine the two. Am I ruining my meditation practice? Do Am I ruining my meditation practice? Do Am I ruining my meditation practice? Do I have to choose? I have to choose? I have to choose? What a failure. I mean jeez. Can't What a failure. I mean jeez. Can't What a failure. I mean jeez. Can't believe we even played that voicemail. believe we even played that voicemail. believe we even played that voicemail. What do you think Seb? What do you think Seb? What do you think Seb? Well I'm thinking about that quote Well I'm thinking about that quote Well I'm thinking about that quote that's attributed to the Dalai Lama. I that's attributed to the Dalai Lama. I that's attributed to the Dalai Lama. I don't know if he ever really said it but don't know if he ever really said it but don't know if he ever really said it but he said that sleep is the best he said that sleep is the best he said that sleep is the best meditation. meditation. meditation. You know you would you would have to You know you would you would have to You know you would you would have to really know Adriana and know the really know Adriana and know the really know Adriana and know the situation to know what the right not situation to know what the right not situation to know what the right not that there's a right answer but know how that there's a right answer but know how that there's a right answer but know how to work with this because to work with this because to work with this because there's some people who fall asleep there's some people who fall asleep there's some people who fall asleep every time they meditate but they're not every time they meditate but they're not every time they meditate but they're not tired. You know they're getting enough tired. You know they're getting enough tired. You know they're getting enough rest and it's it is some kind of rest and it's it is some kind of rest and it's it is some kind of conditioned habit avoidance usually or conditioned habit avoidance usually or conditioned habit avoidance usually or some kind of aversion to the practice. some kind of aversion to the practice. some kind of aversion to the practice. It doesn't sound like that's what's It doesn't sound like that's what's It doesn't sound like that's what's happening with Adriana. She's probably happening with Adriana. She's probably happening with Adriana. She's probably just tired just tired just tired and needs a nap and so that is a and needs a nap and so that is a and needs a nap and so that is a perfectly valid thing to do to maybe perfectly valid thing to do to maybe perfectly valid thing to do to maybe take that time to lay down and maybe take that time to lay down and maybe take that time to lay down and maybe start with a body scan and bring some start with a body scan and bring some start with a body scan and bring some mindfulness into the experience but take mindfulness into the experience but take mindfulness into the experience but take the nap. the nap. the nap. Also most people in our culture are Also most people in our culture are Also most people in our culture are tired. Not me because I sleep really tired. Not me because I sleep really tired. Not me because I sleep really really well and I sleep a lot. My friend really well and I sleep a lot. My friend really well and I sleep a lot. My friend actually wrote a song for me in my 20s actually wrote a song for me in my 20s actually wrote a song for me in my 20s called Sleepy Salasi called Sleepy Salasi called Sleepy Salasi >> [laughter] >> [laughter] >> [laughter] >> proclaiming the >> proclaiming the >> proclaiming the my great talent at sleeping. But you my great talent at sleeping. But you my great talent at sleeping. But you know a lot of us are under slept and so know a lot of us are under slept and so know a lot of us are under slept and so meditation does turn into napping. meditation does turn into napping. meditation does turn into napping. Finding that balance so that it's it Finding that balance so that it's it Finding that balance so that it's it really the the practice really becomes a really the the practice really becomes a really the the practice really becomes a place where you can learn and grow in place where you can learn and grow in place where you can learn and grow in that capacity of mindfulness so that you that capacity of mindfulness so that you that capacity of mindfulness so that you can carry it into the rest of your life, can carry it into the rest of your life, can carry it into the rest of your life, and it just isn't nap time, is is a and it just isn't nap time, is is a and it just isn't nap time, is is a balance that you have to strike, you balance that you have to strike, you balance that you have to strike, you know, and you have to find it for know, and you have to find it for know, and you have to find it for yourself. Yeah, well said. yourself. Yeah, well said. yourself. Yeah, well said. I was just thinking of how much I was just thinking of how much I was just thinking of how much I I I love naps. love naps. love naps. How much I miss naps. How much I miss naps. How much I miss naps. I just don't get to nap now with the I just don't get to nap now with the I just don't get to nap now with the young kids, but you know, I think young kids, but you know, I think young kids, but you know, I think different times in your life you need different times in your life you need different times in your life you need different things, and sometimes the different things, and sometimes the different things, and sometimes the medicine you need is to give yourself medicine you need is to give yourself medicine you need is to give yourself that permission to have a nap, and to if that permission to have a nap, and to if that permission to have a nap, and to if if framing it as a meditation is a way if framing it as a meditation is a way if framing it as a meditation is a way to help you have the nap, then that's um to help you have the nap, then that's um to help you have the nap, then that's um And of course, meditation is a lot more And of course, meditation is a lot more And of course, meditation is a lot more than that. So, yeah, good to try to find than that. So, yeah, good to try to find than that. So, yeah, good to try to find a time to practice at some point when a time to practice at some point when a time to practice at some point when you are alert, cuz you get a lot from you are alert, cuz you get a lot from you are alert, cuz you get a lot from that. Yes. Definitely pro napping, also that. Yes. Definitely pro napping, also that. Yes. Definitely pro napping, also pro meditation, and pro meditation, and pro meditation, and doesn't need to be a war. Just a couple doesn't need to be a war. Just a couple doesn't need to be a war. Just a couple of other things that might be helpful. of other things that might be helpful. of other things that might be helpful. One is if you don't want to nap for One is if you don't want to nap for One is if you don't want to nap for whatever reason, and you do want to whatever reason, and you do want to whatever reason, and you do want to meditate, walking meditation, much meditate, walking meditation, much meditate, walking meditation, much harder to fall asleep standing up or harder to fall asleep standing up or harder to fall asleep standing up or walking, although I have done it, but I walking, although I have done it, but I walking, although I have done it, but I find walking meditation can be great. find walking meditation can be great. find walking meditation can be great. The other thing is I found, and this may The other thing is I found, and this may The other thing is I found, and this may be idiosyncratic on my end, is when I be idiosyncratic on my end, is when I be idiosyncratic on my end, is when I lie down to meditate, I'm actually much lie down to meditate, I'm actually much lie down to meditate, I'm actually much less likely to fall asleep than when I less likely to fall asleep than when I less likely to fall asleep than when I sit and meditate. So, something about sit and meditate. So, something about sit and meditate. So, something about giving myself the permission to lie down giving myself the permission to lie down giving myself the permission to lie down often precludes the falling asleep, but often precludes the falling asleep, but often precludes the falling asleep, but that may not be true for you. Anyway, we that may not be true for you. Anyway, we that may not be true for you. Anyway, we think you're doing great. think you're doing great. think you're doing great. All right, we're going to take another All right, we're going to take another All right, we're going to take another break. We'll be right back with some uh break. We'll be right back with some uh break. We'll be right back with some uh recommendations from the larger culture, recommendations from the larger culture, recommendations from the larger culture, [ __ ] we're getting into. That's [music] [ __ ] we're getting into. That's [music] [ __ ] we're getting into. That's [music] coming up after a quick break. All righty, welcome back. It's All righty, welcome back. It's Meditation Party, the third and final Meditation Party, the third and final Meditation Party, the third and final segment. I love these kinds of segments segment. I love these kinds of segments segment. I love these kinds of segments where you hear recommendations. I'm where you hear recommendations. I'm where you hear recommendations. I'm always looking for recommendations. I always looking for recommendations. I always looking for recommendations. I like when my like when my like when my parasocial relationships uh blend into parasocial relationships uh blend into parasocial relationships uh blend into the curatorial. Um Jeffrey, what you the curatorial. Um Jeffrey, what you the curatorial. Um Jeffrey, what you got? got? got? Uh okay, so I just finished this book Uh okay, so I just finished this book Uh okay, so I just finished this book that [clears throat] was fabulous. It's that [clears throat] was fabulous. It's that [clears throat] was fabulous. It's called The Saint of Bright Doors by uh called The Saint of Bright Doors by uh called The Saint of Bright Doors by uh Sri Lankan writer Vajra Chandrasekera. Sri Lankan writer Vajra Chandrasekera. Sri Lankan writer Vajra Chandrasekera. And it's a fantasy book. I'm I'm a big And it's a fantasy book. I'm I'm a big And it's a fantasy book. I'm I'm a big sci-fi fantasy junkie, and I had read sci-fi fantasy junkie, and I had read sci-fi fantasy junkie, and I had read about it in the New York Times that the about it in the New York Times that the about it in the New York Times that the reviewer gave it a glowing review. And reviewer gave it a glowing review. And reviewer gave it a glowing review. And it is one of the strangest, most it is one of the strangest, most it is one of the strangest, most magical, challenging, transporting books magical, challenging, transporting books magical, challenging, transporting books that I have have read in ages. It's it's that I have have read in ages. It's it's that I have have read in ages. It's it's so unique. It's so steeped in a kind of so unique. It's so steeped in a kind of so unique. It's so steeped in a kind of mythical um South Asian view of the mythical um South Asian view of the mythical um South Asian view of the world, yet it's intensely modern. And world, yet it's intensely modern. And world, yet it's intensely modern. And so, it's about this character Fedder, so, it's about this character Fedder, so, it's about this character Fedder, the protagonist, who in the first page, the protagonist, who in the first page, the protagonist, who in the first page, as soon as he's born, his mother grabs as soon as he's born, his mother grabs as soon as he's born, his mother grabs his shadow and strangles his shadow, and his shadow and strangles his shadow, and his shadow and strangles his shadow, and he has no shadow. And and he's So, he's he has no shadow. And and he's So, he's he has no shadow. And and he's So, he's in this sort of mythical, magical in this sort of mythical, magical in this sort of mythical, magical space where there are devil doctors, and space where there are devil doctors, and space where there are devil doctors, and and he goes to the big city and ends up and he goes to the big city and ends up and he goes to the big city and ends up in these weird Kafkaesque scenarios, and in these weird Kafkaesque scenarios, and in these weird Kafkaesque scenarios, and it's a lot about administration and the it's a lot about administration and the it's a lot about administration and the mystery of these these doors that appear mystery of these these doors that appear mystery of these these doors that appear in these walls, and they know that no in these walls, and they know that no in these walls, and they know that no one understands, and he just and there's one understands, and he just and there's one understands, and he just and there's a whole scientific crew to sit and watch a whole scientific crew to sit and watch a whole scientific crew to sit and watch the doors, because when you look away the doors, because when you look away the doors, because when you look away you watch these things that are going to you watch these things that are going to you watch these things that are going to potentially become bright doors, and as potentially become bright doors, and as potentially become bright doors, and as soon as you look away, then suddenly soon as you look away, then suddenly soon as you look away, then suddenly there's a new door there, and it's it's there's a new door there, and it's it's there's a new door there, and it's it's just it's so wild, but it's like this just it's so wild, but it's like this just it's so wild, but it's like this overlay of the mythic and the and the overlay of the mythic and the and the overlay of the mythic and the and the modern. And what I love about this book modern. And what I love about this book modern. And what I love about this book and just the larger and just the larger and just the larger you know, genre fiction is changing. you know, genre fiction is changing. you know, genre fiction is changing. It's been living in these kind of It's been living in these kind of It's been living in these kind of little ghettos with like a few experts, little ghettos with like a few experts, little ghettos with like a few experts, and and now it's just like the and and now it's just like the and and now it's just like the especially science fiction and fantasy, especially science fiction and fantasy, especially science fiction and fantasy, it's the amount of LGBTQ voices and it's the amount of LGBTQ voices and it's the amount of LGBTQ voices and people of color, and like there's so people of color, and like there's so people of color, and like there's so much energy and enrichment and much energy and enrichment and much energy and enrichment and invigoration happening, and I cannot get invigoration happening, and I cannot get invigoration happening, and I cannot get enough of it, and and it's happening enough of it, and and it's happening enough of it, and and it's happening across and everywhere, but it's really across and everywhere, but it's really across and everywhere, but it's really happening in the science fiction and happening in the science fiction and happening in the science fiction and fantasy worlds, and I just so appreciate fantasy worlds, and I just so appreciate fantasy worlds, and I just so appreciate this writer, and there's like a name this writer, and there's like a name this writer, and there's like a name another dozen writers I love, and another dozen writers I love, and another dozen writers I love, and um that are doing really interesting um that are doing really interesting um that are doing really interesting things in that space, but I thought I'd things in that space, but I thought I'd things in that space, but I thought I'd throw that one out there. I wrote it throw that one out there. I wrote it throw that one out there. I wrote it down. I'm going to order that book. down. I'm going to order that book. down. I'm going to order that book. What do you got, Selassie? Sleepy What do you got, Selassie? Sleepy What do you got, Selassie? Sleepy Selassie. I have I have a [laughter] few Selassie. I have I have a [laughter] few Selassie. I have I have a [laughter] few things. I took a clowning workshop a few things. I took a clowning workshop a few things. I took a clowning workshop a few weeks ago. weeks ago. weeks ago. >> [laughter] >> [laughter] >> [laughter] >> And it might Your essay is great. By the >> And it might Your essay is great. By the >> And it might Your essay is great. By the way, Selassie has a Substack, Ancestors way, Selassie has a Substack, Ancestors way, Selassie has a Substack, Ancestors to Elements. We should just like name to Elements. We should just like name to Elements. We should just like name it, cuz you write these great essays, it, cuz you write these great essays, it, cuz you write these great essays, and your essay about clowning is and your essay about clowning is and your essay about clowning is riveting. Thank you. It was it was riveting. Thank you. It was it was riveting. Thank you. It was it was seriously my most popular post, which is seriously my most popular post, which is seriously my most popular post, which is so bizarre. so bizarre. so bizarre. >> believe I missed this, but I'm I'm also >> believe I missed this, but I'm I'm also >> believe I missed this, but I'm I'm also just it's hysterical that this is your just it's hysterical that this is your just it's hysterical that this is your recommendation. recommendation. recommendation. >> So, I have a coach, Chela Davison, who's >> So, I have a coach, Chela Davison, who's >> So, I have a coach, Chela Davison, who's an amazing coach, and 2 years ago she an amazing coach, and 2 years ago she an amazing coach, and 2 years ago she recommended that I do clowning, cuz I recommended that I do clowning, cuz I recommended that I do clowning, cuz I wanted to work on my spontaneity. I have wanted to work on my spontaneity. I have wanted to work on my spontaneity. I have a really hard time being silly or goofy. a really hard time being silly or goofy. a really hard time being silly or goofy. Like I don't want to be embarrassed. So, Like I don't want to be embarrassed. So, Like I don't want to be embarrassed. So, I think I'm a pretty funny person, but I think I'm a pretty funny person, but I think I'm a pretty funny person, but it's all about wit. So, I had said, "Oh, it's all about wit. So, I had said, "Oh, it's all about wit. So, I had said, "Oh, I should try improv." And she was like, I should try improv." And she was like, I should try improv." And she was like, "No, too much language. You should do "No, too much language. You should do "No, too much language. You should do clowning." clowning." clowning." And when she said it, I knew I should do And when she said it, I knew I should do And when she said it, I knew I should do it, but I waited 2 years. I signed up it, but I waited 2 years. I signed up it, but I waited 2 years. I signed up for intro to clowning all-day workshop. for intro to clowning all-day workshop. for intro to clowning all-day workshop. And I was the only new person. Everyone And I was the only new person. Everyone And I was the only new person. Everyone there was either already a clown there was either already a clown there was either already a clown in multiple senses of that word. in multiple senses of that word. in multiple senses of that word. They were had been taking clowning for, They were had been taking clowning for, They were had been taking clowning for, you know, 6 months or something. So, I you know, 6 months or something. So, I you know, 6 months or something. So, I was the only person who was brand new, was the only person who was brand new, was the only person who was brand new, and it was and it was and it was so revelatory. Like it should be my new so revelatory. Like it should be my new so revelatory. Like it should be my new spiritual practice. This clowning spiritual practice. This clowning spiritual practice. This clowning teacher might be my new guru. It was so teacher might be my new guru. It was so teacher might be my new guru. It was so fun and horrifying at the same time. I fun and horrifying at the same time. I fun and horrifying at the same time. I saw a lot of the same stuff I see saw a lot of the same stuff I see saw a lot of the same stuff I see through meditation practice, you know, through meditation practice, you know, through meditation practice, you know, my judgment of other people, my my judgment of other people, my my judgment of other people, my performativity. performativity. performativity. But the final But the final But the final exercise, which I didn't even anticipate exercise, which I didn't even anticipate exercise, which I didn't even anticipate that I would have to do something in that I would have to do something in that I would have to do something in front of the whole group, I had to get front of the whole group, I had to get front of the whole group, I had to get across the room by getting people to across the room by getting people to across the room by getting people to laugh. laugh. laugh. But you can't talk, and you just have to But you can't talk, and you just have to But you can't talk, and you just have to be funny, and it's it is the most naked be funny, and it's it is the most naked be funny, and it's it is the most naked feeling. feeling. feeling. And what happened is at one point she And what happened is at one point she And what happened is at one point she interrupted me and said, "What are you interrupted me and said, "What are you interrupted me and said, "What are you doing? People are laughing. You're not doing? People are laughing. You're not doing? People are laughing. You're not moving." moving." moving." And I had been giving all of my And I had been giving all of my And I had been giving all of my attention to the people who weren't attention to the people who weren't attention to the people who weren't laughing. laughing. laughing. This one guy especially I like locked in This one guy especially I like locked in This one guy especially I like locked in on him. He was not finding me funny. on him. He was not finding me funny. on him. He was not finding me funny. And that's where I went, and when I And that's where I went, and when I And that's where I went, and when I finally debriefed with her, she finally debriefed with her, she finally debriefed with her, she [laughter] [laughter] [laughter] she said, "Go where the love is." she said, "Go where the love is." she said, "Go where the love is." "Why are you going where it's not?" And "Why are you going where it's not?" And "Why are you going where it's not?" And I was like, "Oh, man." I was like, "Oh, man." I was like, "Oh, man." >> [laughter] >> [laughter] >> [laughter] >> Jeez. >> Jeez. >> Jeez. It was deep, you know? It's like that is It was deep, you know? It's like that is It was deep, you know? It's like that is the story of my life. the story of my life. the story of my life. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. So, um what is the practice of clowning So, um what is the practice of clowning So, um what is the practice of clowning though? Cuz you said, you know, an though? Cuz you said, you know, an though? Cuz you said, you know, an improv is about, you know, improv is about, you know, improv is about, you know, witty repartee and being responsive to witty repartee and being responsive to witty repartee and being responsive to other people, but clowning other people, but clowning other people, but clowning you said to me it's like something you you said to me it's like something you you said to me it's like something you do with your being. And what is the core do with your being. And what is the core do with your being. And what is the core thing there? thing there? thing there? >> I I still don't know. I mean, the >> I I still don't know. I mean, the >> I I still don't know. I mean, the funniest guy was a novelist who had funniest guy was a novelist who had funniest guy was a novelist who had wanted to get out of his head and was wanted to get out of his head and was wanted to get out of his head and was been practicing for some years, and all been practicing for some years, and all been practicing for some years, and all he did was just stand there with this he did was just stand there with this he did was just stand there with this goofy smile on his face, and he was the goofy smile on his face, and he was the goofy smile on his face, and he was the funniest person by far. funniest person by far. funniest person by far. It was like he was transmitting humor. It was like he was transmitting humor. It was like he was transmitting humor. Is there face paint involved? Nothing. Is there face paint involved? Nothing. Is there face paint involved? Nothing. You're naked. I mean, not literally, but You're naked. I mean, not literally, but You're naked. I mean, not literally, but you you just have to, you know, I don't you you just have to, you know, I don't you you just have to, you know, I don't even know what I did. Like I did some even know what I did. Like I did some even know what I did. Like I did some movements, I guess. I I don't movements, I guess. I I don't movements, I guess. I I don't You're so in the moment. It's powerful You're so in the moment. It's powerful You're so in the moment. It's powerful practice. practice. practice. >> Super embodied, for sure. >> Super embodied, for sure. >> Super embodied, for sure. >> Yeah. So, clowning, everyone, try it. >> Yeah. So, clowning, everyone, try it. >> Yeah. So, clowning, everyone, try it. Two more things. One is the Barbra Two more things. One is the Barbra Two more things. One is the Barbra Streisand Streisand Streisand memoir memoir memoir on audio. It's 48 hours. And I'm not a on audio. It's 48 hours. And I'm not a on audio. It's 48 hours. And I'm not a fan, or you know, I didn't think I was, fan, or you know, I didn't think I was, fan, or you know, I didn't think I was, and some friends recommended it. A few and some friends recommended it. A few and some friends recommended it. A few people had listened to it already, people had listened to it already, people had listened to it already, finished it, and said it's amazing. It finished it, and said it's amazing. It finished it, and said it's amazing. It is amazing. It can be tedious, is amazing. It can be tedious, is amazing. It can be tedious, but she is an incredible person, and the but she is an incredible person, and the but she is an incredible person, and the way she reads it is I felt like she must way she reads it is I felt like she must way she reads it is I felt like she must have dictated it, but she actually wrote have dictated it, but she actually wrote have dictated it, but she actually wrote it by hand first, and it's just the most it by hand first, and it's just the most it by hand first, and it's just the most entertaining. There's lots of tea. entertaining. There's lots of tea. entertaining. There's lots of tea. Like she gives, you know, a lot of Like she gives, you know, a lot of Like she gives, you know, a lot of opinions about people. It's it's opinions about people. It's it's opinions about people. It's it's fascinating. It's really, really good. fascinating. It's really, really good. fascinating. It's really, really good. Then the third thing, I think you talked Then the third thing, I think you talked Then the third thing, I think you talked about this, is the We Are the World about this, is the We Are the World about this, is the We Are the World documentary. Oh, so good. Oh, I can't documentary. Oh, so good. Oh, I can't documentary. Oh, so good. Oh, I can't wait to see it. I'm the only one who's wait to see it. I'm the only one who's wait to see it. I'm the only one who's seen it. seen it. seen it. >> Richie for president. >> Richie for president. >> Richie for president. >> He's amazing. He is incredible. >> He's amazing. He is incredible. >> He's amazing. He is incredible. It's Yeah, and I don't know what was It's Yeah, and I don't know what was It's Yeah, and I don't know what was going on with Bob Dylan, but I'm really going on with Bob Dylan, but I'm really going on with Bob Dylan, but I'm really glad those black men helped him. glad those black men helped him. glad those black men helped him. They actually were basically teaching They actually were basically teaching They actually were basically teaching him to clown. him to clown. him to clown. It's true. Just to give some background, It's true. Just to give some background, It's true. Just to give some background, this is a documentary that's on Netflix. this is a documentary that's on Netflix. this is a documentary that's on Netflix. Um I think it's called The Greatest Um I think it's called The Greatest Um I think it's called The Greatest Night in Pop, and it's a Night in Pop, and it's a Night in Pop, and it's a behind-the-scenes of the We Are the behind-the-scenes of the We Are the behind-the-scenes of the We Are the World World World song, and the recording of that song, song, and the recording of that song, song, and the recording of that song, and the making of the video, and there's and the making of the video, and there's and the making of the video, and there's a crazy scene where Bob Dylan's a crazy scene where Bob Dylan's a crazy scene where Bob Dylan's basically having a very contained panic basically having a very contained panic basically having a very contained panic attack, where he's just shutting down. attack, where he's just shutting down. attack, where he's just shutting down. He can't cuz he can't sing like He can't cuz he can't sing like He can't cuz he can't sing like everybody else in the room. They brought everybody else in the room. They brought everybody else in the room. They brought Bob Dylan, who doesn't sing, he just Bob Dylan, who doesn't sing, he just Bob Dylan, who doesn't sing, he just kind of declaims in a weird like kind of declaims in a weird like kind of declaims in a weird like monotone almost song way, and everybody monotone almost song way, and everybody monotone almost song way, and everybody else is like a diva, like a true diva, else is like a diva, like a true diva, else is like a diva, like a true diva, and he's like shutting down, and and he's like shutting down, and and he's like shutting down, and then Stevie Wonder and a few other guys then Stevie Wonder and a few other guys then Stevie Wonder and a few other guys take him over in the corner and write a take him over in the corner and write a take him over in the corner and write a part for him, which he ends up singing, part for him, which he ends up singing, part for him, which he ends up singing, and it's actually not bad. Yeah, it was and it's actually not bad. Yeah, it was and it's actually not bad. Yeah, it was beautiful to watch, actually. It was beautiful to watch, actually. It was beautiful to watch, actually. It was such a tender moment, and everybody's in such a tender moment, and everybody's in such a tender moment, and everybody's in my room. It's my entire childhood in my room. It's my entire childhood in my room. It's my entire childhood in that room. It is incredible. Although that room. It is incredible. Although that room. It is incredible. Although Madonna and Prince both skipped it. Madonna and Prince both skipped it. Madonna and Prince both skipped it. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I love Prince, but I mean, I love Prince, but I mean, I love Prince, but I'm just going to say I hope you listen I'm just going to say I hope you listen I'm just going to say I hope you listen to the B-side of We Are the World, which to the B-side of We Are the World, which to the B-side of We Are the World, which would have featured, if you had noticed, would have featured, if you had noticed, would have featured, if you had noticed, Northern Lights, the Canadian We Are the Northern Lights, the Canadian We Are the Northern Lights, the Canadian We Are the World, with Bryan Adams, [laughter] and World, with Bryan Adams, [laughter] and World, with Bryan Adams, [laughter] and and a whole bunch of and Corey Hart, and and a whole bunch of and Corey Hart, and and a whole bunch of and Corey Hart, and a whole bunch of like Canadian singers a whole bunch of like Canadian singers a whole bunch of like Canadian singers that came out cuz Canada had to do the that came out cuz Canada had to do the that came out cuz Canada had to do the same thing. It was actually on the same thing. It was actually on the same thing. It was actually on the B-side of the We Are the World, but I B-side of the We Are the World, but I B-side of the We Are the World, but I don't think anybody listened to it. It's don't think anybody listened to it. It's don't think anybody listened to it. It's so [laughter] adorable. so [laughter] adorable. so [laughter] adorable. Part of it was in French. Yeah, it's Part of it was in French. Yeah, it's Part of it was in French. Yeah, it's like a French couple of French Canadians like a French couple of French Canadians like a French couple of French Canadians like I was thinking that of that song. like I was thinking that of that song. like I was thinking that of that song. Loverboy. Loverboy. Loverboy. >> [laughter] >> [laughter] >> [laughter] >> It wasn't it wasn't it wasn't in We Are >> It wasn't it wasn't it wasn't in We Are >> It wasn't it wasn't it wasn't in We Are the it's own song, which is a good song, the it's own song, which is a good song, the it's own song, which is a good song, by the way. I can't remember what it was by the way. I can't remember what it was by the way. I can't remember what it was called, but Google it. Northern Lights. called, but Google it. Northern Lights. called, but Google it. Northern Lights. There was a great Onion headline, "Perky There was a great Onion headline, "Perky There was a great Onion headline, "Perky Canada has own government, {comma} Canada has own government, {comma} Canada has own government, {comma} laws." laws." laws." >> [laughter] [laughter] [laughter] >> I love Canada. I do. I genuinely love >> I love Canada. I do. I genuinely love >> I love Canada. I do. I genuinely love Canada. Um all right, just a couple of Canada. Um all right, just a couple of Canada. Um all right, just a couple of recommendations for me. Um a couple of recommendations for me. Um a couple of recommendations for me. Um a couple of novels I read recently. Uh Devil Makes novels I read recently. Uh Devil Makes novels I read recently. Uh Devil Makes Three. I'm in the middle of that right Three. I'm in the middle of that right Three. I'm in the middle of that right now. It's Ben Fountain is the writer. now. It's Ben Fountain is the writer. now. It's Ben Fountain is the writer. Unbeliev- It's set in Haiti. It's Unbeliev- It's set in Haiti. It's Unbeliev- It's set in Haiti. It's unbelievably brilliant. Uh The Bee unbelievably brilliant. Uh The Bee unbelievably brilliant. Uh The Bee Thing. Anybody read that? No. I think Thing. Anybody read that? No. I think Thing. Anybody read that? No. I think it's probably going to win the Pulitzer it's probably going to win the Pulitzer it's probably going to win the Pulitzer this year. this year. this year. >> Yeah, I want to check that out. Yeah. >> Yeah, I want to check that out. Yeah. >> Yeah, I want to check that out. Yeah. It's very stressful, even though it's It's very stressful, even though it's It's very stressful, even though it's just a the life of an Irish family, but just a the life of an Irish family, but just a the life of an Irish family, but it's I found it very stressful, but it's it's I found it very stressful, but it's it's I found it very stressful, but it's also very beautiful. And then I saw a also very beautiful. And then I saw a also very beautiful. And then I saw a movie that is my pick for best movie of movie that is my pick for best movie of movie that is my pick for best movie of 2023, American Fiction. Mm. I haven't 2023, American Fiction. Mm. I haven't 2023, American Fiction. Mm. I haven't seen it yet. It's incredible. seen it yet. It's incredible. seen it yet. It's incredible. Um really incredible. It is a movie that Um really incredible. It is a movie that Um really incredible. It is a movie that has all it it it made me laugh and it has all it it it made me laugh and it has all it it it made me laugh and it was very moving and it was very smart. was very moving and it was very smart. was very moving and it was very smart. And it was just kind of a trenchant And it was just kind of a trenchant And it was just kind of a trenchant observation on American race issues and observation on American race issues and observation on American race issues and also extraordinarily funny. Um also extraordinarily funny. Um also extraordinarily funny. Um yes, I highly recommend it. Have you yes, I highly recommend it. Have you yes, I highly recommend it. Have you guys seen Poor Things yet? I haven't. guys seen Poor Things yet? I haven't. guys seen Poor Things yet? I haven't. That's the one I have not yet seen. It's That's the one I have not yet seen. It's That's the one I have not yet seen. It's incredible. incredible. incredible. We'll have to talk about that if we do We'll have to talk about that if we do We'll have to talk about that if we do the next one we do here. It's awesome. the next one we do here. It's awesome. the next one we do here. It's awesome. It's super funny and it's like someone It's super funny and it's like someone It's super funny and it's like someone described it as Barbie on steroids and described it as Barbie on steroids and described it as Barbie on steroids and it is that. It's very sexy. it is that. It's very sexy. it is that. It's very sexy. Yeah. Oh, we come back to that word Yeah. Oh, we come back to that word Yeah. Oh, we come back to that word again. again. again. It comes around. It comes around. It comes around. >> [laughter] >> [laughter] >> [laughter] >> Guys, thank you. Thank you. Yeah, really >> Guys, thank you. Thank you. Yeah, really >> Guys, thank you. Thank you. Yeah, really fun. Good to hang out with I'll tell you fun. Good to hang out with I'll tell you fun. Good to hang out with I'll tell you the word that goes through my head when the word that goes through my head when the word that goes through my head when I listen to you guys talk. Proud. I listen to you guys talk. Proud. I listen to you guys talk. Proud. Proud of both of you as I listen to you Proud of both of you as I listen to you Proud of both of you as I listen to you talk, but proud to know you both. So, talk, but proud to know you both. So, talk, but proud to know you both. So, thank you for doing this. Thank you, thank you for doing this. Thank you, thank you for doing this. Thank you, Dan. And we're we're having a sleepover Dan. And we're we're having a sleepover Dan. And we're we're having a sleepover this weekend. Seb and Jeff are staying this weekend. Seb and Jeff are staying this weekend. Seb and Jeff are staying at at our house for the weekend. So, at at our house for the weekend. So, at at our house for the weekend. So, much more. much more. much more. >> Ooh. Yeah, we'll talk to >> Ooh. Yeah, we'll talk to >> Ooh. Yeah, we'll talk to >> Pool party. Speaking of tea, we'll be >> Pool party. Speaking of tea, we'll be >> Pool party. Speaking of tea, we'll be spilling some tea. spilling some tea. spilling some tea. All right, thank you everybody for All right, thank you everybody for All right, thank you everybody for listening. Thank you, guys. Appreciate listening. Thank you, guys. Appreciate listening. Thank you, guys. Appreciate it. Thank you. Thank [music] you. Thanks again to Seb and Jeff. Don't Thanks again to Seb and Jeff. Don't [music] forget to check out our IRL [music] forget to check out our IRL [music] forget to check out our IRL meditation party retreat. It's at the meditation party retreat. It's at the meditation party retreat. It's at the Omega Institute coming up in October. Omega Institute coming up in October. Omega Institute coming up in October. [music] There's a link in the show notes [music] There's a link in the show notes [music] There's a link in the show notes if you want more information. It's super if you want more information. It's super if you want more information. It's super fun. Also, don't forget to go over to fun. Also, don't forget to go over to fun. Also, don't forget to go over to danharris.com [music] danharris.com [music] danharris.com [music] to check out our new-ish meditation app. to check out our new-ish meditation app. to check out our new-ish meditation app. Jeff and Seb are regular players over on Jeff and Seb are regular players over on Jeff and Seb are regular players over on the app. Finally, thank you the app. Finally, thank you the app. Finally, thank you very much to everybody who works so very much to everybody who works so very much to everybody who works so incredibly hard to make this show. Our incredibly hard to make this show. Our incredibly hard to make this show. Our producers are Tara Anderson and Eleanor producers are Tara Anderson and Eleanor producers are Tara Anderson and Eleanor Vassili. Our recording and engineering Vassili. Our recording and engineering Vassili. 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