What Pilates, Yoga, Running and Swimming Do That Strength Training Can’t | Mind Pump 2979

If you want to pump your body and expand your mind, there's only one place to go. Mind Pump with your hosts, Sal DiStefano, Adam Schafer, and Justin Andrews. You just found the most downloaded health, fitness, and entertainment podcast in history approaching over half a billion downloads. This is Mind Pump. Today's episode, we had callers call in and we got to coach them with their health and fitness live on air, but this was after the intro. Today's intro was 55 minutes long. Now, in the intro, today we talked about Pilates, yoga, running, swimming, we talked about strength training, nutrition. We also talked about current events and family life. Look, if you want to be on an episode like this and get coached by us live on air, send your question to MPLiveCaller.com. Now, this episode is brought to you by some sponsors. The first one is MPHormones.com. 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Get any of the following MAPS programs for free, MAPS 15 Minutes, Symmetry, Strong, Power Lift, Performance, Muscle Mommy, or 40+. Just go to MAPS15bogo.com. All right, real quick, if you love us like we love you, why not show up by rocking one of our shirts, hats, mugs, or training gear over at MindPumpStore.com. I'm talking right now. Hit pause. Head on over to MindPumpStore.com. That's it. Enjoy the rest of the show. All right, we're going to talk about Pilates, yoga, running, and swimming. We're going to talk about their unique benefits. What's special about each of these practices, and how can they benefit you if you need them? Let's get to it. Let's go. Yeah, let's go. So these are specifically picked because each one of these does offer a unique value, and it's unique value that you might not be able to get in other forms of exercise. So we're not going to talk about which one builds the most muscle, which one burns the most body fat, which one is the best for overall athletic performance. We've already talked about that ad nauseum. We've talked about the studies and our experience about aesthetic changes and all that, and the best forms of exercise for that. It's not the best for that. No, or if you enjoy it, do it because that means you'll be consistent type of deal. I want to talk about the specific benefits of each of these. And I'll start with Pilates. And so I was having a conversation with my wife the other day, and I became painfully aware of a region of the body, a musculature region of the body, where I am the least knowledgeable about this particular area. I know general musculature, I understand dysfunction, I know how to train and do correctional exercise. I'm not a correctional exercise specialist, but I'd say I'm pretty good. I'm okay, better than the average trainer. And I can identify certain things. But when it came to pelvic floor dysfunction, I lost. In comparison to someone who's an expert, I am lost. In fact, I don't even know how to identify certain types of pain. I can maybe point to the pelvic floor, but I couldn't necessarily point to what we would do necessarily or how to train it. I'll have to defer to an expert. So I was having this conversation with my wife because we were talking about somebody that we know. And it turns out this was the area that this particular woman needed to strengthen and work on. And there were specific things that she was doing and it was helping. And my wife said to me, she goes, you know, it's really good for core function and pelvic floor strengthening. I said, what? She goes, Pilates. And I'm like, what? So she starts explaining to me because, you know, my wife at one point, she did a lot of yoga. She did some Pilates. She trained in the silks. And so she was with all these kind of artists that did these different forms of exercise. And she said, it's not necessarily the movements that's part of it, but rather the way that they have you hold your body and your position, the way they have you connect to your core and to your deep core musculature while doing certain movements is really good for pelvic floor strengthening. This is why a lot of women find value in Pilates and why they say, oh, it makes my back feel good. It makes my core look good. Uh, is because this is an area that oftentimes needs to be addressed, especially if you've had kids. Yeah. Especially if you've had babies. I think really, yes. The connection, it's, it's really to one of those techniques that like you can feel your way through. Um, and yeah, for everything I've heard, uh, is along those same lines is like, you know, a lot of times there's a big disconnect there, uh, and you're not getting them to respond and your core really isn't, um, you know, as, as optimal as it could be. And so, you know, I've had clients that have gone and kind of supplemented Pilates in between our sessions, which has actually kind of helped supplement, uh, you know, the weight training as well. I would, I would make the case and argument also for just overall connectivity and mobility. Um, you know, there's a lot of good, uh, stuff that you can do as far as like stretching that people do. But one thing that's nice about Pilates is that you stay connected to these in ranges of motion. And so you're, you know, supporting your body weight or somewhat on the sled and with the cables. And so, you know, you are not only you working on these kinds of dynamic movements, uh, through full range of motion, you are working on connectivity through that also, which there's lots of value to that. I mean, we, uh, you know, we talk about it all the time, like, you know, flexibility without strength is instability, right? So you, that you want to be flexible, but you also want to be strong and connected through that. And Pilates does a good job of that. It's not like you're just resting on the muscle and just, or on the joints, yeah, you're adding resistance to it. And so, um, it may not be the best form for building muscle, but as far as somebody who is looking to have good connection, flexibility, mobility, um, I think it's great for that. Yeah. So, and she was telling me specifically, she goes, it's not these big Pilates classes. She goes, that's not what I'm talking about. I'm talking about real traditional. There's like four or five people in a class with an instructor that's walking over to you and they're instructing you on how you breathe, how you hold your core while you're moving. And so the focus is very different. Like when I train someone, I'm looking at skill and technique, or I'm looking at them concentrating on particular muscles we're trying to develop. Pilates is like, no, hold this here. Breathe here, move this in this position, hold your breath, breathe shallow. And she's like, it really engages some of these deep muscles. Whether or not it's valuable for me, because yeah, it's all the instructor, a hundred percent being able to communicate and translate that to the, to the client. So they actually understand how to manipulate and hold position and activate and tighten intense where they need to. Well, we talk about this all the time, which is class settings in general, right? I mean, class settings could bastardize strength training, which we talk about as the ultimate form of exercise, right? The ultimate form exercise is strength training, but you can quickly bastardize it by throwing it in a classroom of 20 people doing circuit training and body pump shit. Pilates is no different. You know this, you're talking about the technique. You can't get coached. Yeah. And there's 30 people in a class. Yeah. Yeah. You can't coach to very specific. And that's not to say that somebody who just like with, you know, weight training in a class, I could take a class in weight training and modify it to myself, like, and know and slow down the tempo and rest intentionally and get some value out of it. The average person not so much. So you can make a case for a person experienced in Pilates, like say your wife, for example, could take a Pilates class, probably gain a lot of value from it, even in a class setting because she understands what she needs to do through that. And so I, just like with strength training, I would highly recommend somebody take a more intimate setting. I mean, the, the ladies that worked above us, I know they recently have moved out, but that's how they were structured. Yeah. It was one, it was one-on-one. Yeah. One-on-one is the best. It was one-on-one. So it was designed that way. It was not designed to have five, six people going at a time. It was one person. No, people are doing 30, you know, 20 or 30 or 15. Yeah. It's crazy. Yeah. No, no. And I, I mean, I. And that, and that, and just so the people understand, now you're closer to just the cardio class. You're just moving. Yeah. Yeah. There's no, there's no, you're losing a lot of the value. I mean, I was thinking back, I was, I was having this conversation with her. I was, I was like, you know what I had, I remember specifically certain clients I had where we couldn't figure out why they kept getting, why they kept hurting and I would strengthen their core and we would do core movements and you know, they would get a little better and we would work on other stability movements and they would get a little better. This was all postpartum and it wasn't until I sent them to a, a, a specialist in pelvic floor. Like what, what did I know about pelvic floors? Oh, Kegels. Cool. Let's do Kegels. And then let's do proper core exercises, which, which by the way, proper core exercises just to defend myself, does a lot of strengthening when you're doing it right for the pelvic floor. There's a lot of that's engaged. Just like if I did squats, my hamstrings are involved and, but if I have dysfunction, if I have a recruitment pattern issue, right. You could do all the squats you want. If you've got a really bad recruitment pattern issue, unless the coach really knows how to make you move in the right way, you're just going to strengthen. It's going to follow you and you're going to strengthen the bad pattern. That's right. And so this, I had a couple of clients, they went to a specialist and they came back and then the back pain got much better and I'm like, you know what, this is an area I know very little. Yeah. I remember you brought this up as like, it'd be great if you know, that was sort of a mandatory thing they promoted, uh, after, you know, postpartum, physical therapy, physical therapy to address that. Cause it really is a, such a common, uh, issue going then, then on out in terms of like being able to have access and activate and connect to the core. No, a hundred percent. All right. Yoga. So yoga is now this big umbrella term that means like so many different, you know, forms of yoga, but I'm going to talk about the traditional forms of yoga. And then I'll talk a little bit about yin yoga. So traditional forms of yoga, you're doing your sun salutations, you're doing the classic poses, but you're very active in these poses. What I mean by that is you're not just relaxing in the pose. When you go to a good yoga instructor, they're telling you like, make sure your energy is going out in this direction and push out and press out here and point in this direction. Really what they're doing is they're giving you cues to stay active, to have those muscles be active in these particular poses. This way it's more of an isometric than it is actually like a resting again on the joint. That's right. It's isometric stretching and that's great for mobility. It's way better than just holding a stretch. That's for sure. Yeah. It's really good. I mean, it's again, FRC kind of took that to the next level with kin stretch, but yeah, that, that really is the main concept. If people, uh, you know, used it in that fashion and didn't, uh, just try to get in positions passively. Yes. Uh, they would get a lot more benefit. And then yin yoga is holding long stretches. Now I could see the value of this for someone, uh, who is just chronically tight and needs to feel better, needs to get that parasympathetic system to kick in. But here's the real value of yoga. No form of exercise, uh, trains breathing like yoga does. That's what I was going to say. A hundred percent. Yeah. We're all, we're all so guilty of shallow, shallow breathing. Or just not look, I'll tell you what, as a trainer, I'd never focused on bright I'm breathing except for when I'd get my clients to do like heavy lifts and it was more of a, just had a brace. I didn't focus on breathing till I did yoga. I took some yoga classes and like, I think I'm missing out on something here. That's when I learned how to belly breathe and how to like fully diaphragmatic breath and all that stuff. And it was because I took some yoga classes. You could literally attribute like any anxiety escalation to like, for me, it's really, it's the shallow breathing. You don't realize like throughout the day, you're just kind of, you know, really like hunched over and just barely even breathing. And that's a client I think that who benefits from this tremendously is somebody who has a ton of stress. And bless you. It's coming. It's coming. I see it happening. Did you see, I was like, I was trying to, I did it pass though. Uh, you know, a client that carries a lot of, uh, stress, stressful job, um, and like I've had many clients like this, I'd trained a lot of type a personalities, um, and high achievers. And it was like many times I had to reduce volume and intensity, prescribe something like yoga. Uh, and it did wonders for this client. I mean, this client, uh, got so much and it may ensure the tight, the obvious things like someone who's really tight and these deep stretches. But I really think that there's just in today, there's not a lot of times where we take an hour out of our day to detach from phones, from technology, focus on breathing. I mean, that in itself, I mean, just, just the, the, the meditation aspect that you get from kind of yoga, I think has tremendous value. It allows that meditation because you're focusing on, yeah, the rhythms of your breathing, but also to the position. And so it's like, it's directing something completely, uh, with all your focus, which totally alleviates a lot of that noise, how to breathe, uh, out the back of your throat, how to breathe, uh, with shallow breaths, uh, how to breathe at a different parts of your diaphragm, which sounds kind of weird, but, um, and that's because none of us really ever practiced that. We all kind of just breathe, which of course you just breathe, but, but, uh, your breathing tells your body a lot. Um, your breathing can tell you to be tense. It could also tell you to relax. Uh, I remember the first time I learned how to teach someone how to belly breathe. I've told this story before. I had this woman lay on the floor, very stressed, uh, you know, high stress job type of deal. She came in, she had some back pain that was kind of hard to figure out. And I'm like, I wonder if it's her breathing. Cause that'll affect, that'll affect like mid thoracic tightness and neck tightness. That'll affect all those things. And so I'm like, you know, I'm like running down the list of things. I'm like, let's try this. So I had her lay on the floor and we did like five minutes of belly. It's actually took me a while to get her to figure out how to belly breathe. Once she did, she started crying. I'll never forget. I'm sitting there. doing this and then she just starts to cry, she starts to cry and she rolls over on her side. Like she turned away from me and I'm like, I don't know what to do. You know, I'm like sitting like, Oh my God, what, what is going on? And, and thankfully, thankfully I had a trainer and that was very experienced. She was a yoga instructor and she looks at me and she mouths to me. It's like, essentially that's normal. I'm like, okay, it's not me. I didn't do anything wrong. So she comes over. I'm like, I think you're having to release. Yeah. You know, what's common in yoga classes, you know, it's common crying is a very common thing that people will let out emotion. Why? Cause they're breathing. Yeah. They're fine. Tongue, their body. It's, you know, back to, to talking about my type a clients, another thing that I'm reminded of is why I really liked this too, is I remember like, um, cause I wasn't like this big, like I wasn't like a huge yoga fan at first, uh, with recommending it with clients. I remember these type of clients that they need, I needed them to take a break in the day is really what it was and focus on breathing and kind of meditate and telling a type a personality person to go meditate is actually really difficult. Every once in a while you can find some yoga. They won't last. They, they don't, they need, they need instruction. They need these. I mean, I think Justin has talked about this before with his personality, right? That's one of the words, why you like cold plunging, it's like a, it's like this outside force that forces you to do this thing, to breathe Carly, like sit Justin or a client like this, and I'm talking about in a dark room and say, sit Indian style and meditate. It's just like, get the F out of here in five minutes. I empty your mind. Yeah. Yeah. Just not happening, but they, they give them instruction and they have something to follow and they're focused on it and they're breathing and then they get that relief. And so I did start to realize that like, oh, okay, this is kind of a hack for a trainer. Like, okay, I need this client to really decompress. I need them to stop doing things that is like so stressful in our life. I can't get them to meditate because they just, they fail at it. They're like, Adam, I can't sit still for five minutes. It's ridiculous. Okay. If I put them in this class where that gives them things to do that are instructing them, they can follow instructions and do that. And then that seemed to work really well. Totally. All right. Let's talk about running. So what's the special value of running? Well, it's not stamina. It's not endurance. Yes. You get those things, but you can get those things in other ways as well. Running has a unique value because running is one of the most fundamental things that humans can do. We're actually made to run. We're well equipped for it. I know that sounds crazy coming from, you know, a meathead on the podcast. I love to talk about strength training, its value for aesthetics and all that stuff. But it's true. If you look at our anatomy, we have these huge knee joints. We've got these huge glute muscles. We're on two legs. We've got this really big Achilles tendon. We've got this muscular foot and humans really fit humans. Who've been running for a long time. We've got good skill and good technique. They can actually outrun almost any animal. A lot of people don't know this, but there's a race and I think it still goes on where it's a horse versus a man. It's a distance race. And about 50% of the time, a guy wins against a horse. Now we're not faster than a horse, but we can outrun in terms of distance, almost any animal we're made to run. And here's what happens when you don't run. When you stop running, you lose a skill. You totally lose a skill. So like me, I stopped running when I was like 15, I stopped playing games and stuff. Asked me to run now. And it feels very awkward. And now if I want to get that skill back, it's going to take me a year or two of practicing. So the value of running is just retaining the skill of running. This one's a close to home, top of mind for me right now, as I've been on this kick and journey now for, I don't know how, what I'm coming up on right now. I think I'm coming up on a couple of months now of like, uh, slowly scaling my activity level and my steps. And as I do, anytime I do like a body recomp like this and, uh, I've, I think I brought this up on the podcast, how, how fascinated I was with, uh, how slow of a speed I had to walk even like that. Like, cause I, I can recall back to days when I was competing, like how, how, how fast, how fast I was walking on the treadmill that I would consider still a leisurely walk. But I remember the speed at which I was doing it. And then I remember getting back on it and we're kind of go like first time I got on, I went, I went to go right through it. I'm like, I couldn't do it. I mean, like literally I could, but I was like all over the place and like, I feel my hips talking to me and I'm like, oh my God, like I gotta, I gotta regress. And I had to, and I like, that's walking. And so, and this is this journey for the last two months. And it literally was this, it was three, 3.2, 3.4, 3.6, 3.8, 4, and I'm at 4.2 now. Pretty soon you have to jog. So, yes. And so, but it's like, it's been this process of getting there and you know, the, the skill of keeping up the, the jogging and the running, and this is why this is top of mind for me of like, okay, after I kind of do this recomp, why I want to make sure that I maintain that skill is I also see the carry over in just the rest of my life. I move faster too. Yeah. Like, you know, me, I, I track diligently like crazy. Right. So you can see this very clear line of just my total calorie burning activity and nothing's changing in my patterns other than I'm just getting, I'm moving faster and more frequently. And then that carries over in how I move every, the way I get up out of this chair, go to the restroom is different today. Yes. Yeah. You have more, I can, I can, I can measure it and see it and it's fascinating to me to see. And it, cause it creeps on you. Like, I, like, I don't feel like a, I'm like way out of shape or deconditioned, but it's just like, that's over, over time of not running and not doing that. Not only have I kind of lost the skill, but then I also noticed how I've slowed down everywhere else in my life and just regaining that back, I'm already noticing what acute, and then let's forget about the skill of the running and the benefits of that. Just like just being a normal person in today's society, like giving me some more metabolic flexibility, it's like, man, I, my calories had to be so low because even with a walk in a workout, my steps and activity was so low calories, so low burn was so low. I'm just now getting a place where I'm like, I can eat a sufficient amount of calories and stay in a kind of a deficit, but it's because I had to get my movement, my activity and my speed at which I move all just, it all happened kind of naturally. Yes. It's funny. Yeah. I don't talk about it a lot, but it is something I'm always like reintroducing, like incorporating because of some of the things you guys have already mentioned, but you know, obviously the skill of, I want to be able to move fast and have the ability, uh, and to keep up with my kids, you know, that's a big thing with me, uh, and also, you know, bits of the, the, uh, you know, conditioning endurance and that kind of component. But, uh, really it's like the strength training on the feet. And for me, it's like, I noticed a huge difference of how flat footed I am. Uh, if I'm not really training and being on my forefoot and being springy on the pad, uh, you know, of my feet in, therefore that definitely translates to then being a little more effective in my workouts. Totally. Yeah. After this recomb, I've already decided, like I'm going to keep in and eventually progress to a jog, which will eventually progress to sprints. And then it'll just be something that I want to keep in there on a, on a regular basis. And it gets me outside. And I still, and I just want to make it clear on this because sometimes it sounds like, you know, obviously we do these tips and we're talking very specific about this. Um, you know, in the pursuit of body recomb losing by the strategy at which I did is, is the correct strategy. So it's still, is this like, no, we're speaking about the skill of running. Right. Right. And then there's great side effects for stamina endurance. Right. When it comes to like body comp change aesthetics, there's a, there's faster. And the reason why I say that is because I think a mistake that most people would make that we're in a similar journey as say, what I was in falling out of, like, say, you're not your best shape. You want to get in better shape, uh, is to go right to running. And it was like, there was no high skill thing. Yeah, it is. It's a high skill thing. It's not going to get me to my goal any faster. I'm on the fastest path to getting to where I'm trying to go right now by just manipulating diet, picking up activity, getting a little walking, walking a little bit faster, walking a little bit. Strength training. Yep. And strength training being the core diet, being the main mover, and then slowly increasing activity. And then, and then now speed, endurance and stamina and stuff will come on later. But then at that point, I'll have the physique that I wanted to build. I'm gonna go build that physique and then I'll start to add that support. Now, what should be awesome is when I go to add that stuff on, I'll also get to increase my calories even more to support that extra stamina running. Cause I want to maintain the muscle that I built. So it still is the correct path and me just getting right into trying to run would not have been a smarter strategy. Yeah. All right. Last we have swimming. Now, one of the unique values of swimming is of all forms of cardiovascular exercise of all the forms of exercise that are great for cardiovascular fitness, endurance, and stamina. Swimming has the best longevity. It just does. You could do it forever. I mean, it's easy on the joints. It's easy on the body. This is not true for any other form of cardiovascular activity. Now some are worse than others, or should I say some are better than others, but none is better than swimming. I had clients who were in their seventies who were super fit. They did strength training with me. Obviously that's tailored to them. Strength training is very good for longevity. It's just technical. You need to know what you're doing, but if you want something for stamina, the pool or a lake like swim, it's easy on the body, easy on the joints, very low risk of injury in comparison to other forms of cardiovascular activity. And it was always one of the number one forms of cardio activity that I would recommend to a client who liked to swim, had access to a pool. I'm like, just do that. You won't hurt yourself and you'll get great stamina. Oh, I love just the attention to the posterior chain that you get inside there too. Oh yeah. With your, your, yeah. What form of, I mean, rowing would give you some posture? Yeah. Rowing would give you some of that. Um, but man, swimming is so dynamic, uh, and, and the fact that it does hit the posterior chain like that. And like you said, at any age you could do that. I mean, I'm like so envious as somebody who has access to like a good Olympic size pool. I really enjoyed the kick that I was on when I was doing that. It was like, if that adds something close to me that was convenient, it would be something that I would pick back up. I had a lot of fun, um, learning the mechanics. I'd never actually really tried to practice that without look like, uh, picking the mechanics. It's one of those things too. Here's what's awesome about swimming. It's very technical. Like the difference between someone who's fast and not fast is this technique, but with bad technique in the pool, the risk of injury is still relatively low. Oh, totally. Like bad technique with running is injury. You're going to hurt yourself. Yeah. Bad technique in the swimming pool, you're just slower. That's right. You're just floundering. Like you splash a lot. That's it. So you might make a mess and you are slower, but the, the, I, I don't think I actually, I can't recall a client ever getting hurt. Yeah. I'm sure somebody has. No, there's always, there's always exceptions of rule. There's, there's, there's, I can think of an obvious reason where somebody is got something impinged or they have a previous injury and then they take them. I could see where it could happen, but I've never had, I've never had, I've never had a client that I recommended swimming to and they got hurt too. I had plenty of clients who wanted to run or took up running or did something like that instantly got hurt. Yeah, totally. Or, or, or even, even forget being hurt, just chronic pain came up. Like almost everybody I know that takes off running eventually feels chronic hip pain, ankle, shin splints. Like get all the things, I never heard that from any of my, my clients that swam never came back with chronic pain problems or injuries. That's right. That's right. All right. I got to tell you guys a story about, um, our partners at mphormones.com, Vitabella. Okay. So, uh, and this is just a testament to the founder, uh, and this is one of the reasons why we work with them just for people listening. So this is a company that does hormone therapy and peptide therapy. And I was so impressed with what Phil Vela did. So Phil is the founder. So he's running this company. He's running this big company. He's got employees, super busy guy. Uh, and he did something that I'm just like so impressed with. So, uh, they've, they service, I think almost every state in the U S if I'm not mistaken, I think 46, I think, I think like Alaska, they don't ship to a couple, but every, pretty much every state they ship to super fast service, all great. California can be very difficult. California has its own regulations. It's very difficult. And there was this like, there was this hiccup with certain peptides, like BPC one, five, seven was one of them. And suddenly, uh, they weren't able to ship to California, so they're kind of hustling to figure it out and they're, you know, they're taking care of it. It's going to happen pretty quick, but Phil gets on the phone. This is the founder calls every single Vitabella customer in California, personally, personally himself. I don't know how many calls he made, but that's got to be a lot of people personally gets on the phone and calls every single one himself and takes care of them. Then I recommended somebody to them and she gets on with their medical professional. She's like, oh, they're great service. I love the prices, blah, blah, blah. She's like, uh, but I was trying to call the guy back. He didn't answer after a couple of times and no big deal. I was waiting. Phil calls her back. She's like, I got a call from the founder. I'm like, Phil. She's like, yeah. I'm like, what is this guy? Like not sleep, but the service is just through the roof. I mean, it makes me feel so good to hear stories like that. Like, uh, I mean, we hadn't talked about it in a long time. We talked about it when we were going through it. Um, I don't remember what the total, uh, interviews I did, uh, to get down to Vitabella, but there was a lot, um, I know it was North of 20 somewhere, probably around 30 different companies, uh, that I had, you know, hour long zoom calls, some lunches, multiple meetings with people. I mean, it came down to like two or three towards the end. And so it was, it was, it was quite a bit of, uh, of work to get down to who we want to work. And we were very skeptical. We almost walked away from even doing the, in the peptide space, um, and, and hormones, but we know there's so many of our clients, uh, that need the service. And so it was like, we got to find somebody. And, um, I don't know if I shared this on air when we did it or not, but you know, we, we, uh, actually did not, uh, we, it wasn't even the, uh, third largest offer that we had. So it was, we turned down money. Yeah. We turned down a lot of money for companies because the main focus was if this, whoever we partnered with, they've as a, the founder, the leader of the company has to align with us. They've got to be somebody who cares about the service side first, because that we just can't afford to have a company like that. I don't care what the dollar amount of the money is. And so, you know, I felt really good about it when we initially did it. It's been really cool to see the stories. And then he's like, uh, his business model is incredible. Like they, the prices that they're able to charge are so low in comparison to, I mean, everything else that's out there. I mean, and he's, he's put it, he's pieced it together, the business model so that it works, but the guy is doing a phenomenal, exceptional job. Again, the fact that he called everybody. Well, it's, it's huge because a lot of people don't understand too, uh, the, the peptide space and you know, you get customers that get really frustrated. They, they, they expect. Service like a normal company. Yeah, and it's not a normal industry. It's much like what I always talk about Amazon delivery, it was very similar to the marijuana industry and what I mean by that is That state-by-state laws and regulations are different and they're ever-changing right now And so you've got you've got government people lobbying one, you know lobbying one direction You have states that agree to this You've got pharma companies that can't service certain things run out of their regulate like I mean It's just there's all kinds of red tape. It's it's it's still this is growing new industry and so what comes with that when you're trying to build a business in that and you and you want to pride yourself on Service and getting it as quick as possible to people the inevitable is gonna happen and so and some people just get so irate and pissed off as soon as like something doesn't work out and it's like The fact that he's been able to manage that With all I mean part of why he didn't want to come into, California Like he only came into California because of mine because we said if we work with you, you got a service California, California Yeah And we know we have it we have I mean we have an audience worldwide But we have a huge audience in California for sure. Probably I think that's our number one state. Is that our number one state? Yes, yeah, it's our number one state And so you'd be doing a massive disservice to not service our number one state And so, you know telling him that so and he's just like man I don't want to mess with California now He was willing to do that for us, which is also part of what closed the deal was just like, okay He's willing to do that I know how much money he had to put up to make that happen and all the loopholes he had to go through just to Make that happen. So it's been cool. It's been a good ride We're getting ready to renew for our second year with them. And so I'm excited to continue the relationship. Yeah, totally. Have you guys? Tried using creating the way you're supposed to when you're sleep-deprived. Have you guys tried it yet? Is there? After after I have like a poor night of sleep you take like 20 more like 20 grams. Yeah 20 grams They're great. Yeah, right. So and that's what the data shows it And I'm sure cumulatively it will stop working. But if it's like one really bad night of sleep, it'll erase the cognitive You know the way hog. Yeah, so we can measure sleep deprivation with cognitive tests. It'll erase them with creating. I felt that I know I did experiment with it because I come back. Yeah from Flying out to Alabama. I was just like It works like I had horrible sleep. I needed all the help I could get and I'm like, I know I'm tired I know my body and by the way, it doesn't erase everything I'm so I'm not telling people you can't like just sleep a little and take creating But I'm telling you guys like I've taken 20 grams today and I noticed like a big difference Doesn't the doesn't the infrared sauna play a role in this? It also helps it resets your circadian rhythm, right? Remember talking to Bing Greenfield years ago about that and him saying like that's like a hack is like So I wonder doing the combination of that when you have like a really poor night of sleep Get in this get in the sauna and then and then I just didn't have a dose to create I didn't have time today Yeah You know woke up and I guess I woke up at we ever have these nights where you wake up at like 1 Then you wake up at 3 to 4 anyway go 445. I'm just like dude I know a string of those like for the last like two months. I'm just finally out of it. But yeah, it was bad It's so frustrated constant. So frustrated. That's I I mean, I know My thing is if we talk Katrina and I know that if we talk business before bed, that's me every night Yeah, I just can't there's nothing I can do to get it out of my head. I have to get up I have to write it down I have to put stuff on and even then it still haunts me because I'm still replaying it in my head Are you able to fall asleep and then wake up or you can't fall asleep? No, just like you described It's like a every hour. Yeah yeah, and then and then and then as soon as you wake up, it's normally cuz I think I'll go to the bathroom or What about that and then? that the business thought or the conversation I need to have or whatever it is is like just replaying in my head and Just there's nothing I can do to like get rid of it. It's the worst. Oh, but it helped the crazy help big-time Yeah yeah, I think I want to what I want to do is to try the two of them together like that is to do the Sauna and and then the the mega dose like that and see if I can feel and I have to divide my dose up So I can't do 20 grams at lunch and I do it's diarrhea. Yeah. Yeah, I can't do that Yeah, you got five grams gastro. I'll do five grams every hour So it takes me like four hours before I feel so I haven't formally measured this So I am like that if I do the gummies if I do the row one Oh, I can I've taken a big giant shot now I gotta measure it to see exactly how many milligrams I'm doing because I've been just pouring in those little I think it's Those little Dixie cups. Yeah, but it seems to Like settle on me. Yeah, we have people say that. Yeah, it helps Yeah, cuz I the the if I'm taking gummy or the traditional like powder form powder will give me the runs Yeah, I I can't I have to do it in the like five milligrams at a time and then I just do it multiple But the the row I've been able to just I know yeah, so I wonder if that has something to do with I think it does Yeah, so I just learned a stat the other day. That's kind of wild Do you okay? So if I tell you guys you'll know the answer this if I tell if I ask you guys What's the number one selling book of all time Bible? Yeah, by far, right? Yeah. Did you guys know it's the best-selling book every week? Every week period and a story, you know, they don't even put it in the charts because it crushes every week It's just every week for ever still every week. It's the top selling no in the world Yes, no way it is not consistently consistently you can't tell me that it's Outbeats like when I launch of like some yes, really worldwide. It is the number one selling book weekend week out They don't put it on list They don't put it because it just they just they put it out because that book it just crushes when you look at worldwide Oh, yeah top-selling book always I just learned this the other day. Yeah, that's kind of that's fascinating. Isn't that crazy? I mean cuz it's I obviously I know that it's the number one selling book always and I'm sure that there's many many times where It sells more than any other book does But I would think like when a the Harry Potter release comes out and it breaks all these crazy records that for that week Harry Potter wins, okay, I would think but maybe I'm no we're talking worldwide, too So remember consider this like other places in the world where they're just yeah consuming them and come in and churches are buying Yeah, I guess that's like that. It's kind of unfair then because then it's like it's probably the only book That's translated in that many languages to all different versions of it, right? What do you got over there Doug well according to this AI the Bible is not the best-selling book every single week It is on an annual basis the best-selling book, but weekly you can have like a Harry Potter Okay, fine every year for 2,000 years. It's the top-selling book. Thanks all the time. Thanks devil That made more sense to me that it's just like come on there's gonna be times we're like I think Alex Corbozzi had to win for a day Bro he his goal was to beat so like you had I think that I think you can look this up the top top You know ten selling authors and we were like presidents books I think like seven of the ten were like presidents when they released their books. He's like the craziest launches, huh, bro He did he did they did a hundred million dollars in a day. What? Yeah It He broke like every he broke like all those records on on book sales in it now He did some things I think that like I've been smart wise that well, yeah, he did like these like We bought one of them. We bought his whole master. It was like a $6,000 thing. Was it done? I don't know what we paid. Yeah, I was like six grand. It's like six grand We got this like master coaching book first, you know advert ads and all these things like that And then with that we got 52 books or something. Okay? Okay. So here's the deal. Yeah These are the top books ever for a single day. Yeah, okay, Harry Potter and the Deathly Hallows Hundred million dollar money models for Alex Hormozes number two number two 2.91 million copies sold in 24 hours It's a Guinness World Record for nonfiction, dude. I you gotta I gotta ask you speaking of which Adam Yeah, do you want to talk about their the situation you have with a guy that one of you on his podcast? But it turned into a big oh my god We haven't brought this up. Can we yeah, we are we gonna roll some people in the bus Can we yeah, we can't it's annoying. Yeah. No, okay, so I think what's annoying about is when I when I this and this seems to happen in this space so much so much I Follow this guy's content So rich Summers has this podcast and it's like, you know I follow a lot of financial and real estate stuff. And so those type of podcasts intrigue me So I followed his content for quite some time A few months back. This was probably like I don't know for four or five months back They reached out to have Sal on the podcast. So it was like a hey, we'd love you on the show Yeah, blah and I'm like, I looked it up and like finance business. I said you should talk to Adam He's the guy to talk to right and so Katrina Reaches out to me and she's like, hey Sal doesn't really want to do this podcast He thinks that you're better for this podcast and I'm like, who is it? What is it? And she's like Oh, yeah, I follow him. I know it is. I'm like cool. Yeah, I'm down. I'll do the Suns. I like his content Oh, I got no problem doing the show. So I agree to the show and They I get it and they want they want to do a you know Like a like a formal call before which is can be standard. We do that Sometimes we guess you know We want to make sure that it aligns with the stuff that we're gonna talk about or they're okay talking about the things we want To talk about so, you know, that's total normal thing for me to do. I'm like, yeah. Yeah, I'll take the call So I take the call with like one of their assistants or whatever or his assistants and they're going through like, you know Tell tell me about the business and all the sudden so I'm kind of like rattling off, you know Everything mind pumps done which all kind of a bell goes off for me a little bit. I'm like, this is interesting. It's like They they want us to come on the podcast and they want us to talk about the business or whatever like that or it was kind of ironic already they asked you because you're kind of the face of the health and fitness side of us and It's like someone who really knows the show knows to ask Adam. Yeah, probably knows that so that was already like asking me Hey, can you talk about football? Yeah, so that was already a host first. Yeah, that was just kind of but I'm like, but that can happen sometimes Yeah, I mean it does still happen to us like that So I'm like, okay, whatever and then like they're like just it was obvious that she knew nothing, you know Like in a month that's you know, you want me on your show, you know, nothing really about the business or anything So I'm still whatever Answering all the stuff and then I think and then at the end of it She's like, oh by the way, the weekend that you're coming is also when we have this yacht thing And it's like a yacht mastermind thing, right? which we all know how I feel about those things or all of us feel about those things and At this point our red are you getting like red flag? Not yet? Okay, not yet because I actually it was actually well so to give credit to the girl who's doing this You know, she's she's wooed me enough to kind of rock me asleep, you know even though I had some bells going off of like that's strange and you don't know anything this I'm still kind of like She's she's doing a good job and then the way she dropped it was so Like oh by the way, not like it didn't feel like it was a part of anything And so and I'm like and I actually I think even that she didn't say like yacht mastermind She's like, oh rich loves to take everybody out on his yacht the next on you know this these things every once a while and it so happens to be when You guys will be interviewing if you wanted to stay an extra day and come in. I'm like, oh sure Yeah, and I'm like, I'm all about cool Networking and stuff like that and I'm so like, oh, all right. Well talk to my team They handle my schedule and everything like that if I'm available that sounds great this and that and then here comes the the like Oh, by the way, you know the pitch on What it what it costs to do the thing and then like now I don't live I don't lead on to her that like now I'm like, okay now I'm a little annoyed or and I'm like, oh, okay So now I see this whole thing and I'm a little annoyed but I'm like, whatever still that's fair That's a business They're running and it's like sure pitch me on it with that the part that pissed me off or the part that annoyed me was What I I get out I get off with her and like oh, yeah, totally talk to my assistant They'll let you know if you know and they'll set it all up sounds awesome See you guys and they're booking it for like January or whatever. And so then I I talked to Katrina give her a heads-up I'm like, hey You know, they got me flying in this day. I'm gonna do this stuff like that The second day they wanted to do like this yacht thing charges this much, you know me I'm not interested in doing some mastermind thing like that. And so Katrina gets on there basically tells him like yeah, you know, I've got him flying in he's got to do this do that You know normally something like that to you know, Adam spoke at things like that That's not something that he would probably, you know pay to attend And so if you ever interested in having him speak or this not let us know otherwise Yeah, he's not gonna be able to make it in well Then all of a sudden the interview follow-up and stuff doesn't get crickets happens And so I'm like and then again, I'm benefit of the doubt, you know Maybe it's just chance it's not and then I talked to some other people that have been on the show And it's like the same thing. He's using the show as a lead magnet. Yes, or yeah, because they come be on the show But then spend X amount of thousands at all Oh, yeah because the yacht thing was like it was a few thousand dollars and he had and I want to say there was like there were Simple because that was the pitch was like there's you know, 15 other eight figure business owners on there, you know, whatever On if you're a real baller you'd cover all that. Well, it doesn't matter It's like you invite me to be on your podcast first. Yeah, and then you asked me for this I say no big and we still do the podcast. Yes Yeah, that that's the right the right thing to do would be to do that and that's how you would get into my good graces And maybe I would show up to something like that eventually, you know, cuz maybe we hit it off at the podcast But then what it was was it was a total bait-and-switch And it was all in its complete. So he's using his Podcasts literally to upsell to his is his mastermind group Which I know people that have been on it like multiple people have been on it and it's a joke, you know It's just again putting together a bunch of people Organizing a conversation and it's like so tacky how many people are doing things like this? It's like on the front. They look like they're this, you know Successful podcast. They're really not that successful of a podcast What they do is they go target other successful people who want to talk about themselves, you know And that have made good money, which is we're easy fish, right? Oh, I'm talking about your business and how you scaled it from zero to millions or whatever And then, you know easily like, you know make you feel like well everyone's doing it They're spending three grand and their other this and it's a network Yeah, and I'm like, oh they did tell me that they would just have me on the podcast We just want to hear your voice. Well, when you said this to Adam, I'm like, well, that's what really pissed me off. I'm like, Sal didn't have to get pitched no thing like that. Is he the one talking? Hey, that would be the best. I show up, I get charged, I get charged $4,000 to go listen to you talk. This is riveting. That would be the ultimate. I talk about everything that annoys me. Sal would get seasick anyway. I would just annoy Adam on purpose. I'm going to tell you guys about the business. All the numbers are off. Are you sitting back there just fuming? Oh, bro. Would that not be the most hilarious thing? That would be amazing. That would be a good practical joke. That would be a good joke to play on you. To have you show up and then have Sal just hold the court. Yeah, yeah. Oh, God. Oh, there's my partner back there. Adam, have you been supportive with everything? He's been supportive. Business ventures. Another Instagram person that's been supportive. Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah. There's an Instagram person that I just lose respect for right away, dude. Tighten your game up, bro. That's tacky. It's tacky. You know what? You go on a run for it. You also run the risk of annoying somebody who has a big podcast. We'll talk about it. You know what I'm saying, dude? This is what happens. This is what people will know, dude. Well, you know, I know somebody else, too, who he actually used as the person to speak. There's another thing too these guys do. They leverage the people to do the work. Maybe he didn't pay, but then I have another friend who didn't pay to go do it, but he used him as the keynote speaker to talk, and so it's like, you're hustling the money. You haven't even built the real successful business, and then you have somebody else speak. It's like, man, you've got grifters, bro. It's like- It's just gross. It is gross, dude. It's so gross and tacky. You'll be here for a minute, dog. Enough people get around and find out about that stuff, and then it's like, oh, okay, this is the game. This is the hustle. Wow. What about you? Because you've been using the new dog food. Oh, yeah, the new sponsor. Unconditional. Yeah. Yes. So, tell us about- It's a great name for what I'm going through. Yeah. I unconditionally love my dog. Yeah, yeah. Especially the old one. Yeah, no, I've been, I think I've told you a while back, I was really trying to get ahead of all this in terms of their behavior, and I was definitely taking them out a lot more on walks, getting exercise, and switching up their diet. So, yeah, this was an opportunity. This got presented to us, and I started to kind of mix it in with their food. And what was good about it is my dogs don't do real well with the canned, the wet food. And I know that's where, if you're going to get regular whole foods, a lot of times you have to get the ones you put in the refrigerator, and it's all raw. But this one is still, I think they call it air-dried, so it's out, and it becomes kind of like a crudel. Is it grain-free? There's like real meat in it, grain-free, and it's air-dried based, right? Is that true? I do believe that's true. Okay. Isn't it our boy, the founder? Yes. Who? Doug? Yeah. So let me, yeah, you're asking me questions I don't have answers for. Sorry. Sorry. Anyway. So I think he's involved, you know, our. You don't think he's a founder? Well, this Avram is the guy that, who started the company. Oh, okay. Maybe an investor. Yeah, maybe an investor. So I want to hear about your experience though. Yeah. No, it was great. I was, so there's been a few I've tried before that haven't really done well with their gut and their, like, you know, they had some, you know, side effects as a result, but this was like, they digested it well, and I was able to then kind of move them out of like mixing it first, and then to do it like on its own. My little wiener dog, it's funny, because like prefers, because we'd actually eat all these kernels like away from the other dog food I was feeding him at the same time, and he would just eat those. But yeah, their energy has been great. Their coats look great. So so far, so good. It's been, you know, pretty good in terms of like me, like having decently behaved dogs. Well, you know, so the audience knows this is a third company that dog food that we, we were trying to get a dog food company way back when, even when I had my dogs. And the problem was we, there was never a time where all of us that, so you have Marcello, you have Kyle and you have Justin who still have dogs. And but this goes all the way back to Bella and when, when Doug had Bella and I had Bentley and Mozzie, we were trying to, and you never heard it on the show because we never know, but none of us all had found a dog food where I was just like, oh, the dogs, all the dogs loved it. And it was, it was just like, well, that's going to be tough. So we just kind of kept passing, passing, passing. So finally, uh, you know, after three different, uh, dog food companies that we've tried to work with, this is the first one that like everybody has reported back like a dog loves it. So here's some stats on it. It's premium air dried dog food. So it's real meat dried slowly at low heat. So the nutrients stay in, uh, the, it's, it starts at 40 bucks. It's not no subscription required and it's shelf stable. Yeah. So there's no freezer space, no thawing, no delivery windows. Um, it's cool. It's cool. They do that for the subscription too. It's not like mandatory. It's like, yeah, but it's so convenient. Like I remember doing that first kind of going back and forth, cause you got to first of all, see if it works with your dog, you know? And so to, to then know, like, this is going to be a hit. It's like, well, I just want to make sure I get this. It's called unconditional, right? So it's at like all the major places, PetSmart, Petco, all the big places too. So, and then you can, it does have a subscription, but you can cancel anytime. It's not like any of these like long-term. You can also pause it. Yeah. Pause or skip it. Yeah. Yeah. So dude, I got a story to read you guys that is crazy about this dad, this Idaho dad and what he went through to protect his family. You want to hear it? Yeah. Is this the one you told me, but not Justin? Yeah. Yeah. Justin hasn't heard it yet. So you, I told Adam the story, it's crazy. So I'll read the story too. An Idaho father fought a black bear with his bare hands after it burst into his home at 3 30 AM with his wife and daughters just feet away. So his name is Brian Heidman. He tackled the bear through the doorway and wrestled at the backyard. The bear bit the back of his head and shoulder left deep scratches and wounds across his arms and torso. And his wife, Kim was also attacked, suffering injuries to her back. Then their dog Lulu jumped into the fight, helping distract the bear and protect her family. Brian makes it back inside, but he's bleeding heavily and he tells Kim he loves her. And he's like, I don't know if I'm going to make it as the family tried to get him help. Two more bears attempted to break into the house. What? The neighbor finally rushed over with a gun and drove the bears away. He was taken to the hospital and he underwent surgery and he had staples and wounds, staples for his wounds and stuff. And he survived. Crazy. Wow. Crazy dude. What's up with the two extra bears? Yeah. Yeah. They're just waiting for their opportunity. So what is going on? Such weird behavior for black bears too. So aggressive. Yeah. For a black bears are already not like that normally. And then to, after one came still two more, first off, okay. Put yourself in as you're a dad, right? You got your kids in there to black at 3 30 AM breaks in and you're fighting it and you're getting chomped, you're getting scratched, you're getting chomped. But then the dog comes and it finally gets away and you're barely making it and you're going inside and party is like, I hope I make it and parties like I'm a hero. So you're in there and you're like, we did it. We did it. Two more bears. Well, it's so crazy. It's like just him making a lot of noise and like shouting all like it didn't scare him. And so, yeah, like to, to then now wrestle them outside, get bit in the head. Like what the hell was he, was he sleeping in his meat, his beef jerky pajamas? Like what's going on? Why was he coming out? Why was he so angry? What did you do? So crazy. Oh man. Black bears usually scared. No. The very, very much. Seriously. Yeah. They're not normally if they, you, they try and break in like that. You make some noise. They normally go running. I mean, or if it's like a mom, you know, and then the cubs, but that's about it. Do you guys know why black bears are so fearful? Do you know why they're fearful? Because you got grizzlies. They'll kill you. Yeah. Polar bear will eat you. Yeah. They'll just eat you. Yeah. They don't mess around. Black bears will get scared. And the reason why they're scared is because they are prey. They, when, when they, they're used to black bears were almost always around grizzly bears. Now around here, it's hard to find grizzlies. So you see a lot of black bears, but they were prey to bigger bears. So they, they, they assume of us like another, they evolved to run. Yeah. Yeah. Whereas the grizzly bear has no predator. Yeah. Polar bear definitely has no predator. Yeah. So they don't run. They just come. That makes sense. That makes sense. Did you guys hear about, did you guys hear what happened on one-on-one? No. Just today? Oh my God. Two days ago. Uh, or yeah, three days ago. Uh, I was, and I was driving with Kyle. Kyle took me home last night and, uh, I was telling him cause we were, we were on one-on-one and we're driving. I'm like, Oh, did you hear about the, the, the lady who got, uh, killed on one-on-one like this? He's like, bro, I drove by, but I was there before the cops got there. I'm like, no way. I did sort of hear about this. So I was heading, so this was on Saturday or Sunday, I can't remember what it was, but I was heading North and the traffic was crazy out of nowhere on heading North. But I could tell that something happened South because there was no cars coming on like a weekend and I'm like, Oh, there must have. And everybody on my side, it's probably looky Lou, right? So we finally get up there and there's 15 to 20 cop cars. I'm like, that's a lot of cop cars for like a normal act. That's not normal. I thought it was like a, uh, some sort of like a chase or a cop got shot or something like that. Cause it just blocked off. Yeah. So I didn't know what happened. And then my mother-in-law tells me that, Oh, did you hear about the lady who got, who died on, on the, on the road? And I was like, Oh, okay. So that, and so someone must've died. So that still thought that's a lot of cop cars for someone just that, that, that died. Then Kyle tells me the whole story of what happened. So this lady, she have a knife. Yes. Yeah. Was, uh, on the, like walking on the one-on-one or something, and then got on top of this car and was like stabbing herself and her own self stabbing her stabbing herself. And Kyle said like, at one point he, while she's doing this, he's five feet away. He sees it. His windows. He said it was one day. He saw her stabbing herself. Yes. And he didn't tell anybody. Bro. He just comes to work. Oh yeah. Come on. It's been messing me up for the longest time. He was like, you know, uh, what did I, what was I supposed to do? Like he didn't, he was like, I just, he saw it and he goes, he couldn't even believe what he had seen. It wasn't until he saw like the news, the real, yeah, he said it was, it was, it was so surreal that like, it wasn't until he would watch the news later on where they told the whole story where he's like, I did see that. Like that's crazy. But he tells me that he's like, I was just, it was beautiful day. Windows are down. I'm kind of cruising home and he's telling me my windows down and I'm from, he's like, I'm from here to Doug from stabbing or something like, Hey, no, no, no, no. That's what he says. He's like, he's like, you know, then I, then I started thinking like, you know, uh, what do I do in a situation? Would I jump out and stop that on the freeway? And like, like he's like, he's like, man, it's been messing with me for like the last couple of days. That's a mental breakdown. Yeah. That is a horror movie. Wow. Right. It is. That is a horror movie. Yeah. Yeah. So I don't know all the details of who the lady was and, uh, the, what, what all, how, how it started or anything like that. I, I saw the end of it with all the cops. He saw it happen before the cops even got there. Oh gosh. I know. No. Wow. That's crazy. Z biotics is the world's first and only genetically modified probiotic drink that you drink before you drink alcohol. So when you drink alcohol, your body converts some of it to an unwanted by-product in the gut. That by-product is what's responsible for the rough mornings after drinking. Z biotics is made specifically to produce an enzyme that breaks down that unwanted by-product down before it becomes a problem. We swear by this. We have ordered it for events. Our listeners love it. Make your first drink of the night. So drink it before you drink, drink responsibly, and you're ready to wake up and train the next day. You guys, this stuff works. It's wild. By the way, they also have a sugar to fiber probiotic. You take this and it converts a significant percentage of the sugar you consume into fiber, prebiotic fiber. It really works. You guys, this stuff is wild. Go to zbiotics.com slash mindpump26 at ZBIOTICS.com slash mindpump26. Use the code mindpump26 and get 15% off if you're a first time purchaser. Here comes the show. Our first caller is MJ from South Carolina. What's up, dude? How you doing, man? What's going on, guys? What's up? Good, man. How can we help you? So I'll sum up my email. My left knee, I tore my ACL, MCL, and both my meniscuses. I got that one surgically repaired. But in my right knee, I tore my LCL, ACL, MCL, and both meniscuses, and I haven't got it repaired. And we're going on probably about seven years of just walking around on it. And I've been neglecting my lower body. The most I do with my lower body is just body weight squats, and I do a lot of rucking. I was just wondering what you guys would recommend on how to build my lower half so I can get some gains on them. Yeah. You might know if I asked why you haven't gotten those. They're fully torn, right? ACL. Yeah. They're gone. You mind if I ask why you don't get them repaired? So I got my left knee repaired, but on my right knee, I just can't miss that much time off of work, and I don't have health insurance. So even the first time I didn't have health insurance, I had to spend 20 grand cash just to get it. Okay. I see. Okay. I feel that. Yeah. Because those obviously provide stability in the knee joint. Muscles that surround the knee or work on the knee will also provide some stability. And so you want to strengthen them essentially, but I would limit you to machines. Yeah. This is where machines really play a big role. Like a leg press real slow, leg curl real slow, hack squat real slow, leg curl real slow. It's a leg extension and leg curl machines. And so you're going to put very low weight and just kind of really squeeze the muscle and move it through a full range of motion. Isometric holds at the ends. Isometric holds, yeah. And a leg press would probably be one of the better exercises. Single leg, leg press with no weight, just the sled. And just slowly move through the full range of motion. While you're doing that, do you have a knee brace that you wear? I do. I have like a soft knee brace. Like those little, uh, metal bendable bars on the side. So it's got the hinges on the side. Yes. Yes. I would wear that, uh, while doing strength training. Uh, and I also, you might even want to wrap your knee underneath that. And so you get like a, like a power lifter wrap, wrap your knee, put the knee sleeve on, and then do very slow controlled machine strength training exercises, uh, when you go to the gym, just to build the strength around them. And that'll give you some stability. It's not going to give you all the stability that you need. Okay. But it should help give you some stability around the knee joint. Yeah. Um, it's, it's tough too, because, uh, when I was younger, I used to have these massive legs and that I just don't want to get chicken legs. You know what I mean? Yeah, no, I got it. You're just limited. You're just limited because of, uh, the, the ligament. How are you, how are you walking and moving? Um, so I actually get a lot of walking in, um, this whole year I'm averaging about 14,000 steps a day. Uh, I would say about 7,000 of that would be, um, like rucking. But, um, as far as regular day moving, I have no, no pain or anything. Um, every now and then it's like a little tight, but not nothing like crazy. Okay. Do you ever feel the knee joint come out? Random? Yeah. So, yeah. So that's like, um, when I'm doing more like, I guess like jumping or when I'm landing. Yeah. Yeah. You need to, you need to avoid anything with, uh, anything ballistic or fast. Uh, everything's gonna have to be real slow and controlled. Yeah. I probably even try and limit the rucking and replace more of that with strength training. Uh, that's going to benefit you from a muscle standpoint, a lot more than, than the rucking. I mean, it depends where you're rucking too. Like, are you climbing on rocks and stuff or are you just on a flat surface? Yeah. I live in, uh, Charleston, South Carolina, so everything's pretty flat. Okay. That would be it dude. But I would avoid any kind of, um, dynamic movement just cause you don't have those ligaments. They're holding the knee together. Um, and the muscles can only do so much. What were you doing? How'd you tear them? So, um, the first time I was playing pickup basketball and then a couple of years ago when I was still in my, my thirties, probably like late twenties, I was playing like contact flag football. And, uh, exactly. And it popped, um, one week and I was like, all right, it feels pretty good. After like a day or two, it was just a little bit swollen. And I tried to play again the next week and then the whole thing just collapsed on the field. Yeah. That sucks too. Yeah, it does. Slow controlled, uh, you know, uh, strength training with machines. I wouldn't do any free weights. That requires too much stability and that should help. That should help. Yeah. Thank you guys. That's where I was just like, um, like I can do body weight squats, but I was, uh, a little nervous to put any weight on, on the bar or even, uh, sometimes I get nervous, even dead lifting because just the constant up and down, up and down too much risk with that too. I mean, this is, we rarely ever hear us talk about telling people to go do machines, but this is, this is why machines were invented or that's why I wanted to talk to you guys. And, uh, I have the maps 15, but a lot of that is still like, um, I would say like free weights. Yeah. Yeah. No, you're, you're going to be all machine stuff for sure. For your lower body. For the lower body. Yeah. Yeah. And then just to get slow. And then as you, as you get, cause you'll get stronger still, uh, you know, really slow down the tempo, do an isometric hold at the full contraction. And, and when you're, when, then when you feel really safe and good there, then you add just a little bit of weight. So it's just real slow on, don't, don't get it carried away. Um, biggest mistake you can make is feeling good and slapping on more weight. Can you feel like just take your time, stay, stay in that weight for a while and just slow the tempo down and add isometrics to it. And then when you've been doing that for a while, then you can add just a little bit of weight and just keep doing stair stepping your way up and you will, I mean, you'll, you'll definitely build a lot more stability. I mean, I remember when I tore mine, I was like full on, you know, muscled all out and the doctor was like, so blown away that how I could walk and be all, and like, I mean, those muscles will do, do you a huge favor than the average person who gets a torn ACL, ACL. Right. I appreciate that. What about like bands and stuff like that? As far as like lateral movement, would you even risk that? Uh, I wouldn't do any stepping lateral movement or walking. You just don't have that lateral stability. Uh, so I would keep it very linear. Yep. Gotcha. I appreciate that guys. You got it, man. Yeah. Good luck, dude. Thank you, man. Take care guys. Take it easy. Well, that sucks. That's a big, uh, that's a big deal. Yeah, it is. Yeah. Um, I mean, and by the way, people listening, like you can get away, although he has his LCL torn too, uh, you can get away with it back in the day, long time ago, before these surgeries existed. That's what you did. You just, you just walked around. I, you can't get it. You can't get away with a full torn ACL though. Can you? You can. I mean, you just can't like run and stop or do anything like that. That's why I think the rucking is crazy. Yeah. I think the rucking is a bad idea. I just think that's that, uh, even the, even just that impact too. And like you said, running and stopping, I mean, I have to get it repaired. That's a ligament that goes through and that's, that's the big one. I mean, that holds everything in place. So no, a partial tear maybe, but a full ACL tears. That's a, you know, you strengthen your hamstrings and your quads, your gastro. I remember, I remember the doctor telling me that I had, you know, part of why mine tour was just, I was not in basketball condition trying to play basketball. I was in a meathead condition, but the positive thing was when it did go, I had all that supporting muscle and he's like, man, you have a lot of great stability for somebody who doesn't have one anymore. So crazy. Yeah, that is. Our next caller is Sergio from Quebec. Hey Sergio. Hey, how's it going guys? Good, man. How can we help you? Uh, good. First off, I just want to, um, say I've been listening to you guys for the last six months, really enjoy the podcast. Love what you guys have to say. I want to shout out my boy Reno. We watch every single episode, talk about you guys every day. Um, so just to give you a little quick version, I guess, uh, I always grew up overweight when it was close to 300 pounds. Uh, when I was 20, I eventually got myself down to about two 20, but for most of my adult life, I was the classic all in all out kind of guy. Uh, at the end of 2024, I was back to around two 60. Uh, I decided to make another change this time. I started taking strength training a little more seriously, but then I got really into running, trained for a half marathon, got down to about one 90. About a month after I completed the half marathon, I tore my ACL. We treated it non-surgically. I rehabbed it, got back to work. And eventually I even did a 75 day hard challenge with a friend of mine to kind of get the consistency back. Uh, during that challenge, I was lifting three days a week, running three days a week, and I went from about 205 to 185. That's also when I started listening to you guys and I bought maps aesthetic program, which I ran while training for another half marathon in hindsight, probably not the best combination. Um, I'm actually running that half marathon this weekend. And after that, I'm basically done prioritizing running. The other important piece is that I am a letter carrier. So I'm also, I'm already getting 25 plus steps at 25,000 plus steps. Most days going up and downstairs, carrying weight. I also play hockey once a week. So that brings me to where I am now. I'm around 186 pounds and basically my entire life has been always about deficits, losing weight. Um, listening to you guys really changed the way I look at that. So for the first time, I actually liked the frame I have on my current body weight. I don't think seeing anything less is going to make me any happier. What I really want now is to add muscle to this frame and get stronger. I don't necessarily care if that means I stay around 186, go up a bit, go down. I just want to stop approaching fitness. Like I'm constantly trying to lose weight and actually spend time building. So if you guys were in my position, how would you approach it? What max program do you think I should run calories? Should I continue running? If so, how much? Let's go. This is going to be a lot of fun. You're in a really cool spot. The hardest part is going to be you getting in your own way and doing too much shit. So believe it or believe it or not. Uh, it's, and it's great where we're at. Like the fact that you've came all the way down to 185, you'd, you're going to build muscle. Let me tell you, as soon as we, we bump calories a little bit and reduce the amount of training and stuff that you're doing, you're going to build muscle. You're going to build muscle like a beast. I mean, it's crazy how much you do. You do a lot, bro. That's a lot. That's a lot of steps. That's a lot of training. That's a lot of running. And that's a high volume program, uh, which has got you down weight wise. Now, when we come the other direction, you should be able to pack muscle. Yeah. So let's get more specific with your goal. So are you, are you looking at your, so you want body composition change, so you want more muscle, less body fat. You want to, what about how you feel? What about, uh, like total time dedicated? Like, let's talk about that. Yeah. How's the energy? How's libido? How do you feel right now? Like, cause that's a lot you've been, you've been hammering the body. Yeah. Um, the energy I thought was good. I'm realizing it's probably not the greatest, uh, libido, not good. To be honest. Uh, so yeah, like, cause I, when I started it, um, the whole running with the aesthetics program, I was doing like 1800 calories. I knew that was not smart at all. So I kind of jumped it up. I was feeling it in my workout, you know, for two weeks, three weeks, you could kind of get by. Uh, then I started upping it right now. I'm at about 23, 2,400 calories. I feel like maybe that's still not enough. No, not even close. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. You got it. So you got to have to, you have to eat a lot more. It's this exciting though. You're going to, yeah. You're going to feel a huge difference when we do this, but it's not going to be easy to mental part will be hard. Yeah. It's not going to be easy because you've, you've created this, um, this habit, uh, this relationship for lack of a better term with exercise where you just get after it. Uh, and you're, you're probably afraid to eat as much as you need to, uh, and to reduce the amount of activity. Yeah. Because you used to be, um, overweight. And so that's why you do the on off again, or that's why you've had that before in the past. Right now you're on. Um, yeah, this is probably the most consistent I've been for the longest period of time. Yeah, but this will turn into off. If you keep, I'm going to say, I'll let you know if you keep going this direction, it's going to turn, you're going to fry yourself, uh, and then you're going to go in the other direction. So it's going to be a lot less exercise and a lot more food. So what you need to do is a reverse diet, focus on strength training. And unless you want to keep running, you like the endurance, uh, you're walking way more than enough for activity. So it would literally be strength training, strength training. You just do your walking 25,000 steps a day is a lot and eat more. And you're going to build muscle. Yep. But that means you're going to do a lot less exercise, dude. You're going to be in the gym, maybe three, four days a week, max. That's it. Okay. And so you're saying don't really need to do the running because the walking from work is plenty, plenty, plenty, unless you like running. Look, if you want to keep running, cause you like running and you like that kind of endurance, uh, then, then we would change how we apply strength. Let's just say this though. It's not going to support your body composition goal at all. So you just get that out of your head. Like if you, you running is not helping you body fat or building muscle wise, it gives you endurance. And if you like it because you put in your favorite song or podcast and then it's kind of a Zen place for you. That's cool. And if you told me that I'd be like, yeah, we could run a couple of times a week. I'm okay with that. But if you're doing it because to keep your own shape or to get in, like I would say, no, it's we don't need it. We don't need it. You move plenty enough at work and a maps, anabolic type of program, jumping your calories, at least the 2,800 calories. And we're going to put muscle on it. You'll get stronger. You're going to build muscle. And you'll notice energy go up. Sleep will be better. Start to get better. All those things will start to come right behind weight on the scale, straight up, and you're going to get leaner at the same time. Yeah. Cause what it'll look like, how's your relationship running? Can you give it up or do you want to keep it? Um, you know, it's like a love, hate kind of thing. Um, I've said something a few episodes back where he was like, he had clients where they thought they liked it and then they were kind of like, yeah, maybe not. And I feel like that's where I'm at. Like at first it was to prove that like, you know, my knee, no surgery, I can do this. And now as we get closer, I'm like, there's a lot going on. My kids have hockey on the weekends. Like I can't even give that much time for all this. Oh yeah. And you play hockey once a week anyway. Yeah. Do you, you've got your athleticism there. You got plenty of activity. If you're listening, surgery, if you're open, so if you want to hire a coach, they'll walk you through this whole process or probably take, you know, a good six, nine months of a coach. You'll pack on a good, like a good amount of muscle, 10, 15 pounds. Yeah. Uh, and there'll be there coaching you through the reverse diet, uh, and the strength training. Is that the question I have with this 10, like 10 to 15 pounds? Not that I want to sound scared or nervous about it, but is it something that's going to completely change my body frame or it's something that just kind of builds into what I already have, uh, you can't completely change your body frame. Yeah. You just have more muscle. What will happen right now? Okay. Cause you're, you're pretty lean right now. I mean, like you could still, you could see your abs, right? So you're, you're pretty lean, lean right now. You will notice your shoulders, your chest and back get broader and your waist stay the same and go in. That's what's going to happen. Okay. It's you're going to look, you'll look bad-ass now. In that process, it's a bit of a mind fuck for somebody who's come down from a lot of weight though. Because when you, when you eat more calories, okay, you're going to fill up more glycogen. You're going to hold more water. And so there'll be this phase that you'll go through that. It'll mess with your head. You'll feel, Oh God, I feel fluffier, or I feel like I'm putting on fat, but we're just filled up your, your right now, your, when you're at 2,300, when you were at 1,800 calories, you're so depleted, you have what, like in the bodybuilding world, we call the flat term, you're just, your muscle bellies are sucked out, sucked out of glycogen, sucked out of water. So you have a flat look and now you have a flat lean look. As soon as I reverse diet, you and I start bumping your calories. The first thing that's gonna happen is you're going to fill out. And that filling out process for somebody who came from being very overweight, most of their life freaks them out and they think right away. They're getting fat and it's like, no, you're not fat. You're just, you have water in your muscles now, and we're filling up your muscle bellies. And this is part of the gate building muscle. We got to be in order for us to build muscle. We got to first fill them babies up. And then we can, and then on top of that, eat more calories and lift weights. And then it takes a little bit of time for that muscle to really start to show up. And then you start to feel the energy, you feel the strength, you feel the libido, and then you start to see the waist kind of come in, like, but it's that, it's that period of time of, from where you're at now to getting to that feeling that where most people over correct, freak out. They start running, they cut the calories back down because they think they're getting fat and it's like, no, no, you're not. You're doing great. And that's why Sal is suggesting like having a coach that process is because we've done this for so long and helping somebody just through, it's not an X is a no thing. It's not like, I can't tell you what to do and you can just go do it. It's, it's more so you getting in your own way in that process because, and it's just, it's normal. And we coach you through the process. So there's two ways that people will mess this up. One is what Adam said, which is that they just get, they freak out over correct or over train. The other way is they start to veer towards going off. So, Oh, I'm eating more food. Now I'm going to let more garbage into the diet. And then you kind of go in that direction. Uh, and you start to overeat things that aren't really good for you. Uh, if that was a tendency in the past. So those are the two kind of, you know, bumpers and what a coach is going to do is do what's called a controlled reverse diet. And it's going to be based on whole foods and they'll work with you through the process. Uh, and then the strength training, if you're going to keep doing hockey once a week, your strength training will be three days a week and that's what your team, that's it. That'll be all you're working out. Yeah. Absolutely. Maps on a ball. Pro maps, anabolic math, PPL. Both of those will work. Okay. Okay. So you're saying maybe a three day a week program, bump the calories up. What are we talking about? 2,800, probably 2,800 right out the gates. Okay. And it's nothing that I should keep going higher or it's like, that's the starting point as a starting point. So 2,800 again, and these are generic numbers. Cause if I was coaching you, it could change, but let's just say it's probably going to be around 2,800 a lot. And then we would hold there. And I, what I'm looking to hear back from you is I'm feeling stronger. Libido is doing better. It's like, and, and, and weight is sustaining. I expect initial bump up because we're going to be holding more water glycogen, all the things I told you about. So I expect a little initial bump. Then I want to see a leveling out. So like, let's say you bump up five pounds and then you kind of level there and you're, we're still eating 2,800 and we're staying there and I like to stay there for like a week or two and then, and, and holding that way, and then I'm going to bump you another two 50 to 5,300 calories and same process again. We'll just keep doing that with your activity, your size, uh, three days a week, lifting hockey, 25,000 steps that you'll probably end up around 33, at least 33, 3,500 calories. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And you'll still be lean. Uh, and then if you were ever want to cut, you would end up cutting at 2,800 calories and that'll be a cut for you. Yeah. Yeah. So, and it'll be way, way less work, but you'll, you less work, bro. You'll have the physique you want. You'll, you'll be lifting less. You won't have to run and it'll be easier to manage. It's again, it's just this, this first phase of getting there is, uh, it's, it's difficult psychologically, not physically, like you've already, it's more, sorry. It's more, cause like I'm like on the off days, just do nothing. Yeah. Well, you know, you still go, you go for a walk, hang out with the kids and do stuff like that. I mean, you can stretch, you can do, I mean, there's lots of things you could do. You're just not working out. You could also plan your workout on that day if it's an off day. Like I, so if you, so if I, if I could, right, like control this for you, it's be, you already move a lot at work and you, then you also have your hockey day. So those days are, those are taken care of my off days instead of just laying around, that would be a training day for sure. I at least one or two of my training days would be my off days because that's you, you're, you're good and rested. You're not doing much activity. Your one activity is you get a good lift in. So I try and get at least one of your lifts on one of your days off. And then the other two during the week. Yeah. That would probably serve you better. Okay. Yeah. Awesome. Yeah. You got it, dude. Do you have maps? Anabolic? I don't. I'll send that to you. And then Sergio, if you want, if you're interested in talking with a coach, I can have somebody call you and see what that looks like. You're, you're probably looking at about six to nine months of coaching, uh, through this process. But then good for six and nine months. Okay. But then, uh, yeah, I mean, I don't know if it's something financially. I'm ready for it. No worries. Very honest. No worries. We'll send you maps, anabolic, bump your calories, cut everything else out, dude. Watch what happens. Yeah. Keep us posted. I'd love to hear an email. Send me, send me an email. Let me know how it's going. Okay. I'll actually, I'm going to do this too. I'm gonna have Doug put you in the private forum for free so that as you go through this process, okay, you have questions, send it, send a question into the forum. Okay. And we'll help guide you through this process. Awesome. Perfect. Cool. You got it, man. All right, dude. Thanks guys. Dude. Yeah. It's the, it's, you know, there's disbelief, uh, on the other end. Cause like I'm doing all this stuff. I'm eating so little and you're telling me to do way less and eat more. I'm going to gain so much body fat, especially coming from 300 pounds. And the key, uh, you know, as a coach is working with someone, they got to get them through that period. Once they start to see it and feel it, then it becomes less about blind faith and it becomes more about the evidence. And you're like, oh yeah, this is actually working like this is amazing. Then the tendency is to continue to scale up the exercise because you feel so good. But boy, you don't need to do that much. He's all the stuff he's doing is actually countering what he's trying to accomplish. I wouldn't be surprised if his hormones are depressed because of all the work and low calories. I can tell by the way he's holding body fat. It is. You see where he's holding it? He's got, he's got, he's got visible abs and he's leaning in his arms and everything like that. And then he's holding a little bit of extra body fat right around the love handle area. And for as lean as he should be, he shouldn't be, I guarantee that's I guarantee that's hormonal stuff. Once that balances out, he's going to see his, he'll, he'll, he'll put on 10 pounds, but it'll go to his chest, his shoulders, and then his waist will taper in. But it's the time from now to there. That's hard because he'll go through an uncomfortable phase. He'll go through a, I don't like the way I look phase. This isn't working five pounds in a week. You know? Yeah. Yes. Yes. And so if he can just make it through that process, the positive things are he's worked off a ton of the, the body fat already. And so he's at a, and he's got incredible discipline and works hard. Those are working in our favor, but if you can, but steering it in the right direction is key to, to the success of this. Our next caller is Megan from North Carolina. Hi Megan. How you doing Megan? Hi, I'm good. How can we help you? Um, I'll read my email. Sorry. There's a child at my door. Uh, good morning. I started listening to you guys a few months ago after a friend who loves y'all recommended it to me. I've worked out and eaten pretty well. All of my life literally grew up in the gym. So much as me and my sister's picture was hanging up in the gym where my parents work. It was an old racquetball kind of place. I started having joint issues at a young age. I'm currently 46. I never played sports, started cheering in seventh grade through high school. Um, did play some basketball, but I've always gone to the gym about five days a week, um, through high school, college, everything. I've never been somebody that can eat whatever I want, but of course that got worse as I got older. Appearance and health has always been important to me through the influence of my parents. Um, my mom put me on my first diet at nine years old and I wasn't fat, just gained some weight. Anyway, as I've aged, I started having frequent injuries, which have led to surgeries. After my first son was born in 2010, I got an amazing shape doing insanity, but I also broke my left sesamoid bone and had surgery to have that removed. Um, I then had an experimental procedure done on my hip for bursitis and tendonitis after struggling for years with pain. That was a huge help. Then a few years later, my right sesamoid bone broke. So I had surgery on my right foot to remove that, which led to breaking my fifth metatarsal, which led to a Jones fracture repair. Then a year later had to have the screw removed in a different type put in as well as some tendon repair. In between this, I've had a hysterectomy, two C-sections, a breast reduction, um, removal of a teratoma and sinus surgery. So I healed from all these things and in the process gained a lot of weight and I really just kind of stopped caring and also dealing with a lot of work at stress and stress at work at home, moved to a new state through all this and life was just life. So I finally had enough and started looking into losing weight. I was at 192 pounds, um, five, two and a half. So we say five, three, cause that sounds better. So I started going to a cross finish kind of functional training gym that honestly is owned by someone that's not the best trainer. It gives a lot of bad advice. I was having shoulder issues already, but again, this trainer just made you feel kind of like you were weak if you complained. So I continued with injections and medicine and push through. I lost about 30 pounds during my year there, but then it just stopped and I started gaining some back. Well, a year ago I had my shoulder surgery actually almost exactly a year ago. Um, the pain had become debilitating and physical therapy nor meds were helping. Um, I had surgery last October. They repaired a bicep tear, a labrum tear, impingement and a frayed rotator. As I was healing, I started going to planet fitness and slowly got back into lifting. I still wasn't budging. So I did do terzepatide in the middle of December and I was on that for about three or four months and lost 30 more pounds at that time I was working out seven days a week, I was doing weights for over an hour, six days a week and long cardio once a week. I scaled back this summer to five and I was doing some, uh, sporadic retrotide, but then stopped because I was losing too much weight. Um, well, the time I wrote this, I was 119 pounds. I'm currently at 123 pounds, um, 31.9% body fat, 64.3% muscle mass and 3.8% bone mass. I'm trying to get my body fat down to about 24% is what I'd like. Uh, currently I'm doing four days a week, two days, glutes and legs. And I do abs on those two days. And I do two days of upper body. Um, I usually go on a long walk at least once a week. I average probably 9,000 steps a day. Um, some days I get like 12 to 14,000. Some days I only get seven. Um, I do 20 minutes on the elliptical on my upper body days. Um, I really only track protein because tracking gives me anxiety. Um, I'm a sixth grade teacher. I'm a chair coach. I have two boys, 15 and 11, a bunch of animals. Um, my husband's in the restaurant business, so he's, our schedules are crazy. I'm a very social person as well. Um, I work out before work, so I don't get a ton of sleep. I probably get during the week about four to six hours, um, because I try to get to the gym by 4 AM. So I'm kind of looking at what kind of program I can do, um, to increase my muscle mass. I know from listening to you guys that trying to reduce body fat and increase muscle at the same time, doesn't necessarily work. Um, so I don't know. Yeah. My issues right now are mainly my stomach. Um, and you know, I've seen a difference in my, in where I've toned up, but not, like, not so much my stomach, but like my arms and legs, they're not where I want them to be, especially my butt. But, um, yeah, that's where I'm at. Thanks for calling in Megan. I appreciate it. Um, can I be direct with you? Yeah. Uh, why are you beating yourself up so much? I don't know. I always have been that way. Yeah. You're fighting your body, your body's fighting back. So the fractures and the bone breaks that you, um, experienced, those are all, uh, uh, very indicative of what we call, let's say stress fractures or too much stress on the body. Um, and I, I mean, just to be quiet, just to be direct, um, you're doing, you're just beating the crap out of yourself and you're under eating, and it sounds like you've been doing this for a very, very long time and the rebellion that you've experienced from your body is going to continue to happen and it's going to get worse and worse and worse unless we change directions, but that means you're going to have to break up with this abusive relationship that you've had for so long and it's going to be really hard, uh, because it's what you know. And so it's, it's, it's going to look, you have a good year of healing is what we would have to do. And it's going to look, generally speaking, Megan, it's going to look a lot like way less exercise. It's going to look like nourishing your body with more food. It's going to look like prioritizing sleep. And it's also going to look like trusting the process because in that period of time, you're going to feel like you're in the middle of the ocean and you're, you're, you don't know where what's happening, where am I? Uh, but you're going to have to kind of trust the process, but you've got a good of healing, uh, that you need to go through. Otherwise what's going to keep happening, Megan, is your body's going to keep rebelling and you can throw whatever peptides you want at it. Um, it's just going to keep rebelling and it's going to look like more injuries, more hormone issues, more stress. It'll look eventually like hair loss. Uh, it'll look like bone density loss. I have lost a lot of hair, which I just had to cut my hair off. Cause I mean, it was, I've always had really thick hair and it's like, and I couldn't believe how thin it was. You are in the middle. You are really, really in deep, uh, with this, uh, relationship, uh, with your body that we need to kind of reverse out of. And, um, I mean, I could tell you what it's going to look like. I have very little confidence. You'd be able to do it on your own though. Uh, I think, um, I think you need a coach, like a good coach. You got to have somebody coaching, not a crappy coach, like the one you worked with before, who's just trying to kick you in the butt, which you don't need. I don't, you don't need somebody to kick you kicking yourself. You don't need that. What you need is somebody to pull you back. Somebody that you could trust that you can listen to, that you can bounce off of, because what's going to happen is, you know, every other week, you're going to be like, I want to go back. I feel like I'm not doing enough. I feel like I'm getting fatter. I feel like this is going to, whatever. Uh, but it's going to, it'll be about a year of healing. Um, within that period of time, probably by month seven or eight, you'll start to see the evidence of your work. And then it'll be less blind faith and more like, Oh, I think this is starting to work. Oh, you'll love it by then. At the end of this, your body will, your body will start working the way it's supposed to work for you. You're not going to feel like it's your enemy that you're constantly have to battle and having to fight. Okay. I mean, and I, I know a lot of my problem is psychological. You know, it's like, I know I need to eat more, but I'm so afraid to eat more. Yeah. It's you're not, but listen, you're so Megan, you're not this anomaly. It's way common. It's very, very, it's very, very common. It's why we have a profession. It's why the podcast is what it is is because so many people struggle with this. And the fact that you admit it is huge. And then you're aware of it is huge because most people are in denial or don't think they have that. So the fact that you recognize it, you see it, you want to make change already were, we got a huge headstart because a lot of times I have to convince somebody or explain, and they don't, they don't trust. They don't believe they don't know. So the fact that you're there already is already a massive thing. Now it's really just diving in and committing and trusting the process, letting go of the control. So the coat, it says, I trust you. You, you're the one that's going to guide me through this and tell me this. I feel this way. I don't like the way I look. I don't, all the things are going to come up and you're going to feel that way. That's part of the process and normal. And then you just commit to yourself that I'm going to stick this. all the way through and on the other side of it is incredible. Yeah. It's way less work, better sleep, better hormones, hair better, the body fat percentage you want, easy. Yeah, it'll come. Easy. It'll happen. 24% easy will be the, and you'll be able to maintain it, eating more food, doing less work, all the things, but we gotta heal first. And you'll have more energy for everything else. You're obviously a very- Yeah, energy sucks. Yeah. I can imagine. Well, I mean, of course it does, hon. You're burning the candle at both ends and you have been for a long time. Yeah. Look, you obviously have a big heart. You've got two kids. You're a sixth grade teacher. You know, if you had one of your students come up to you, doing all the stuff that you're doing, and they come to you and tell you about their injuries and stuff, you would be very caring and you give them good advice. You're just not doing that to yourself. Yeah. Working with a coach looks like this, but I'm telling you, okay, you're gonna do less and you're gonna eat more. Okay, that's very general. Right. Here's what it looks like with a coach. They're gonna work with you because it's gonna be really scary. So they're gonna work with you a lot and you're gonna message them and you'll be like, okay, here's what I feel. I wanna do this. I don't wanna do that. You know, I'm trying to sleep more, but I'm actually waking up early. Why don't I go work out? Or I feel like I could do more. And then my energy's coming back. You know what? Let me go do a workout. And the coach is gonna coach you through that process and work through you. But the thing you know you gotta sign up for is this is literally what it looks like. Now I could tell you, and I gotta be very careful with how I sell this because I don't like to overpromise, but you're gonna have some physical, some positive physical changes within that year, most likely. But when you need to go into it, what the mentality is, I don't care about anything except I wanna feel better and heal. That's my goal for the next year. I don't care what else happens. I need to feel better and I need to heal. Then I'll worry about the other stuff later. Okay. Is this gonna mean like, am I gonna gain weight? I mean, I'm just trying to mentally prepare myself. Oh, you probably won't be doing a lot of scale weighing. It's not necessary. We're not gonna let you weigh yourself. Yeah, it's not that your coach is not gonna be wanting to see that. There's not gonna be a lot of talk around that right now. It's checking the other boxes first. Here's the other thing too. So, because we tend to take the scale and we put it so high on a pedestal, you're gonna focus more on things like, because these are the things we tend to ignore. Energy, your mental state, your libido, your sleep, like how much more patient you feel. Your strength. These are the metrics that you're gonna really be paying attention to. Our coaches are probably not gonna let you weigh yourself because that really messes with people's heads through this process. Because it could throw you off and it can make your day good or bad, regardless of how you feel type of deal. Gotcha. Yeah, for sure. And the exciting part when we do this right, even though Sal's telling you, you commit to a year of just being healthy. These are the markers we should see improvement. If we do a good job, you should feel energy start to go up. You should feel the strength go up in the gym. You'll notice libido. You'll notice things like this start to get better and better and better. And then the tendency, when you do this on your own, is you feel that. You're like, okay, let's ramp this up. Let's keep, you know. And then we reverse back and then an injury happens or then we have a major set. And that's been my whole life. I'm like, as soon as I get in the rhythm and I get going, something happens. Yeah. And that's because what I, it's like I'm a 200% instead of. Yeah, well, it's good you're aware. It's good you're aware and then the coach will have to do less convincing when they tell you. Yeah. Because you will know you've, which is awesome. That makes our job easier when that client is aware that they have that pattern. So when I say, hey, Megan, you're slipping into that pattern again right now. Trust me, this is what we need to do. And you'd be like, all right, you're right, you're right. I know I could be that way. And so it's a lot easier. First, if someone who, because this can happen with clients too, is you tell them and they go, yeah, yeah. They hear me, but then they go do what they want to do anyways. And then of course it happens, right? Which is, I mean, I'm pretty stubborn. I tried to tell my allergist when they told me I'm allergic to tree nuts. I'm like, but I think I can have almonds. I think I went to medical school, you know? Like you do you, but. Well, you know, healthy Megan in the true sense, right? Healthy physically, mentally, looks the best. Yeah. It's a myth that healthy Megan is going to be like way overweight. Like that's the fear. Oh, if I get healthy, am I going to get real fat? No. That's not what healthy Megan looks like. But right now what you're doing is you're, you've got your, like you're clawing onto this thing. And in the meantime, you're beating your body up and your body keeps screaming at you with injuries and fatigue and whatever, hormone issues, whatever. And those, it'll just get louder and become more pronounced as you continue. And when we were 25 and had no kids, it wasn't, the body could handle a little bit, but as we get a little bit older and life and stress your body goes, oh, hell no. I can't take this shit no more. I can't take this anymore. So. Let me have one of my coaches call you and talk with them and the way it's going to look, you know, you end up working with us. First off, we hand pick them. So we, these are coaches that we know, we like, we trust. I'll probably hop on a call here or there. So you might see me on there every once in a while. And the process is going to be trusting your coach and working with them through this process. And then we're going to do a follow-up on this later on and have a great story to tell. Okay, I hope so. We will, we will. We will Megan. I trust you guys. Thank you. We got you. Good Megan. I won't have to ask you for that trust again, I promise. Okay. I appreciate it. Thank you. You got it Megan. All right, see ya. That's tough. Yeah. So. Real good though, self-aware. Yeah, and look, just for people listening, you know, we've worked with enough people to know, I could give her, I could write things out. I could give her all the advice right now. And maybe she even tries to do it. Wouldn't last longer than a few weeks. And she'll go right back to what she was doing. And I just know that the fail rate's 100% when someone's in this kind of place. Working with a coach, it gives you someone to let go of with that trust. And if you have a good coach, the problem is she's worked with crappy coaches too. That really pisses me off. She told me about the coach that she worked with. That really makes me angry. You work with a good coach, it's life-changing. And I was being honest with her. You know, we'll fix this in two months. And that's going to take a year. Yeah. This is a year of healing. And the first four months, five months can be really hard. Yeah. After that, it's going to start getting easier. By the end of the year, she's going to start to see her body start to work the way it's supposed to. Our next caller is Diane from Idaho. Diane, how you doing? How you doing, Diane? Good, good. How can I help you? Nice to see you. Yeah, same. How can we help you? Well, my email is long, but I feel like that's what everybody starts with, so. Go for it. Yeah, do it. Okay. I started that I had just received some advice from a trainer from the gym that I go to that it doesn't match my mindset, especially since I found you guys. A little history on me. In my late 20s, I found two books in my mom's cupboard. One was called Lean and Free 2000 Plus. And the other one was Eat More, Weigh Less. And I was really intrigued by the idea of eating more and weighing less. The idea of eating 2000 calories plus sounded like a great idea to me. I wanted to make it work so bad, but I never had a good way of weighing or tracking my food. I just had a pad of paper and a pencil back in the day. I was very inconsistent. Also, low fat was the trend. And when I got married at 21, I found the book Stop the Insanity, and I learned how to figure out fat content in food. And I wouldn't touch the food if it had over 3% fat. I lost a lot of weight that year. Then I had a baby and my metabolism just went wild. I dropped to 125 pounds. Average weight through high school and college was like 155, 165. I've never been a tiny girl. So at 125, everybody thought I was sick or had an eating disorder. Baby number two came 19 months later and the weight melted off with a combination of postpartum depression. Sorry, this time I wasn't eating much. And at my son's two week appointment, I was so thin and wasn't in a very good place. Fast forward, after babies three, four and five, my weight crept up. And now my last baby, he's 20 years old now. And I've gone from 150s to the 160s. And now I balanced back and forth between 170 and 190 for the past years. I just yo-yo back and forth. Six years ago, I switched from being an all cardio girl to strength training. And it's taken some time to figure out lifting, but it's been an awesome ride and I have learned so much. And I love the gym atmosphere. Until I found you guys about 10 months ago, I was working out four to six days a week for about an hour, getting the minimum of 8,000 steps a day. And I loved when I heard you guys say that five to six days wasn't necessary because I was getting a little burnt out. So I backed off to like three and four days a week. I am intrigued with reverse dieting. It made so much sense, especially after having my hands on the two books I mentioned above. My youngest son was coming home from a two year mission in May. And so in January, I planned to go into a cut, but I was now listening to you guys and devouring as many podcasts as I could each day. I knew I needed to reverse diet instead of cutting. So I spent the next few weeks building up to 2,400 calories. I probably can kind of been bouncing around between 18, 1,900 calories. So I built up to 2,400 calories. And in 2025, I had been maintaining around 182 to 185 pounds. I can't believe I'm saying that on air. But a couple weeks at 2,400 calories, I spiked up to 189. I was a bit freaked out, but decided to stay the course. I had also started anabolic and hoped that maybe some of that was some muscle. Then in May and June, I'd have to say I was eating a bit messy, not as kind of eating bad. Celebrating summer treats and celebrating my son coming home. And I hit 199 pounds, freaked out. I decided I would stay off the scale and that as soon as I got home from a girls camp I was helping with at the end of June, that I would, then that's when I would start my cut. I decided not to go into a deep cut. I cut 300 calories to start with. And I started that on July 20th. On week five of my cut, I was down four and a half pounds and I was feeling good about that. And that week at the gym, a woman who was being trained by one of the two trainers at our small gym complimented me. I struck up a conversation with her and the trainer. I asked his opinion on a 300 calorie cut and the conversation turned into him offering me for one month for free. He told me to come the next day and he would do my measurements and by the information he gathered, he would be able to give me exact numbers to work with. I was pretty excited and hopeful to see if what he came up with would confirm that I was on the right track, that I could cut at these higher calories. He gathered my info, we talked about my goals and he said he'd get back to me. I had gone the week before this and got my first DEXA scan and his information had me at 33% body fat and the DEXA said 32%. So that matched up pretty good. And I don't know if I understand the BMI and total body percent fat, but the BMI says 31.4. Now this is where my 911 title of my email comes. He told me that to lose one pound a week, I need to do two high calorie days of 15 to 1,900 calories, four lower calorie days around 13 to 1,400 calories and then one isolation day a week at 1,000 calories. I have no doubt that I would lose weight eating that way, but I also knew I would never stick with it and I'd lose muscle and the weight wouldn't stay off. I went in the next day to go over the information. I tried to explain to him that from the middle of January until July, I had intentionally been eating 2,400 calories so that I could cut at higher calories. He told me that his numbers don't lie, that he's trained women for competitions and the numbers were. That he would give me an eating plan and exercise plan and to think about it. The next day I told him I wasn't ready to follow a meal plan yet, but I really don't want to follow the plan that he had at all. It has been a little awkward seeing him now at the gym, but I know my decision was right. I am almost 54 years old, I am 5'6". I would love to see the 160s again, but I'm trying not to get hung up on the number on the scale. I'd really love to see what I would look like at around 22% body fat. And I know that my feet, my knees, my joints would feel better at a lower weight. I've been working hard at the gym and want to uncover the muscle I know that I've been building. I'm in my second round of anabolic. I do three days a week. I get at least 10,000 steps a day. I am working hard at eating whole foods. In my cut, I have been at 2,100 calories, 160 grams of protein, 208 carbs, 70 fat. And for the first time ever, I don't have crazy cravings and rarely binge at moments, weaknesses. This week would have been 11 weeks since I started that part in July, but around eight weeks, I guess I was just kind of confused, not knowing where to go next. So kind of lost momentum and the last three weeks, I haven't been very consistent. So I guess that's where I'm at is, I kind of feel like, oh, do I need to start over and build back up and then do a cut? Or do I keep cutting, do I cut deeper? And also just what workouts to keep. I think I always second guess my workouts. Like, am I doing the right thing? Am I doing enough? Was phase three of anabolic too much in a cut? So I kind of cut out a couple of those. I cut out one set of the bicep curls and lowered the ab and calf workout part at the end for phase three. That's where I'm at. Just where do I go from here? Your intuition was right about your trainer. So that was good. Yeah, I could tell he's worked with competitors. So yeah, so there's like a, there's a button that they hit and it's like low calorie and then the fancy it up by cycling calories, which really doesn't make much of a difference. It just means 1300 hours a day. Yeah. So, I mean, you, you could cut it 1800 calories and that would be a decent cut for soap for what you've been running. Um, and your intuition was right. What you're, what you're considering is, is your ability to maintain something. And that's the most important thing to maintain, to, to consider. Uh, because yeah, you could eat barely anything, see weight loss, lose muscle, do the whole thing, and then get right back on that cycle of going up and down, uh, that you can't maintain. So your intuition was a hundred percent correct. You could cut at about 1800 calories and just keep it consistent and continue strength training. You probably feel really strong right now. How do you feel in the gym? I do feel strong. I work out with a few friends and I mean, upper body wise, they're always like, you're so much stronger than us. Lower body is always been my struggle. I kind of baby my knees and have my right hip kind of hurts. I tend to baby it, but I have pushed. I've, um, let's see. I wrote it down somewhere for deadlift. I can't, I did hurt my back a few years ago doing a deadlift. So I'm very careful when I deadlift. I didn't know if I'd ever do it again, but I can do a hundred pounds. I don't know where, you know, how that compares to anything. I did get up on my bench press to a hundred pounds, which I put on the little two and a half on the end to get to a hundred pounds. That's awesome. No, you're doing really good. I think you're very coachable. Uh, I think you, if you're interested in working with a coach, I think one of our coaches would do a really good job working with you. There's some opportunity I hear right away. The fact that, uh, cause your, your lower, your lower body is where your big muscles are. So when you think about things that are going to move the needle metabolically, uh, put us in a place where we can lean out easier, being able to get stronger in our legs. What that might look like is I might have you do a trap bar deadlift instead of a conventional deadlift because it feels more comfortable and safer for you. And I could push the weight a little more. Um, it might look like walking lunges, uh, and progressing that way. So, you know, we're obviously we're big fans of the barbell back squat and the barbell deadlift. But it doesn't mean that there are not alternatives that I feel safer. You feel safer that we could really start to push the weight and get a lot stronger in our legs. I think there's opportunity for you there and staying where you're at calorie wise and be fed, because I think you're going to continue to build muscle and get stronger. Or going the route that Sal is saying, dropping down to 1800 and you see yourself kind of slowly lean out, but I like that you feel good. You feel strong. I also don't like cutting somebody. When you tell me things like you're pretty good, but then you have those occasional binges. So that tells me that your appetite is kind of going, I want more calories. I want more food probably because it's trying to build muscle. And then, you know, I'd rather be in a place calorie wise where you feel fed and satisfied. We just make good choices consistently. Um, and we're not restricting and we focus more on continuing to build muscle. And just so you know, back on the way back where you made the, you know, uh, you saw the scale jump, like, what was it like eight pounds or something like that and kind of freaked out and went the other direction, man, one, one week of, you know, eating like a quote unquote asshole, you know, for a week. Uh, a lot of that is just water weight. You're just, you're, you're, it's not, you didn't put eight pounds of fat on from a week of, I mean, you'd really have, you'd really have to eat like an asshole to get 30,000. Yeah. Yeah. You'd have to. So a lot of that is just, uh, inflammation and water. And you honestly didn't need to over, you probably could have just went back to where you were eating, but good food and stayed the course and been okay. But that's the tendency. What happens? People freak out. They see that then they over and they, they play this. That's what the whole term yo-yo dieting comes from. It's like doing real good. Then I have a bad day or a bad week. I freak out. I see the scale. So then I go the other extreme when it's like, Oh, we really didn't need to go to the extreme. We just need to get rain it back in. And that's where the coaching part, why I think Sal's even going that direction. This is what a coach kind of helps you work through is when we have those moments, the reality is in real life, you're going to have a bad day, even a bad week sometimes, and I'm there as a coach to be like, Hey, you're doing just fine, we're going to go right back where we were, we don't need to go on some extreme cut. You don't need to ramp up cardio right now. Let's get back to where we were. Let's get refocused on our training. Let's, and actually let's put all those extra calories work. Let's get, let's have a good lift. Let's go get strong today. You know what I'm saying? And then keep leaning into the building muscle and trusting the process, but, uh, you overall doing really good. You are in your up and down, you know, suggestion is, is kind of like a good idea. Um, you know, you would cut for a little while and once you start to plateau, then you would bump a little while and then you would attempt, uh, another cut. And that's that kind of up and down helps maintain consistency. It's a slower process, but it's a more permanent process. Uh, dare I use the word. Um, and you don't lose, you don't feel like you're starving. You're not, you know, feeling weak in the gym, you know, type of deal. Um, you know, an aggressive cut will cause greater scale weight loss. Uh, but it's going to set you up in a, in a, in a bad place. Uh, and it'll set you up for a rebound, uh, almost always. So it's a, it's a slower process. 1800 could be your cut. Then you can bring it back up to 22, you know, after five weeks or so at it. Uh, and then kind of play that stair-step approach. And when you bump the calories, you don't have to keep them up that high. You can keep up for a week or two, going back down to the cut, you know, type of deal, if you want a coach to walk you through this, I mean, I think, uh, you know, 30 to get, I think a good body fat percentage for a woman like you fight, by the way, five kids, good job, those five kids, especially after you talked about the, the, how difficult it was with the second one, that's such a, such a commendable thing. You know, getting your body fat, I think 25% is a good number to aim for low twenties, uh, is fine as well. But, um, as we get into our, you know, once you start to get into your forties and above mid twenties is a healthier body fat percentage. And you'll look, you'll look better. You'll look radically different. Yeah. You look better. You're healthier. You're more resilient. You're less, uh, prone for illness. Uh, bone density tends to be better. Low twenties, you know, it's like, like a woman in her twenties and thirties as they get up a little higher. Once you get a forties, fifties, sixties and above, I like 25, 26% body fat with good muscle and it looks better anyway. Yeah. So what we'll make, what we'll make, well, honestly, what will make the difference? And I don't know how often or the episodes you've been listening to, but I've been talking about with a lot of our female clients and listeners, like we want to build into the body you want instead of this mentality that we've been saying for so long, I'm trying to cut, cut, cut in the body. It's like, you'd be amazed if we didn't even move that much in weight. But I focus on building the body you want. You'll have the shape you want. You'll have the curves, you'll have the shoulders, you'll have the butt, you'll have the things that everybody wants. Uh, you can build into it instead of always trying to cut into it, like everybody wants. It's far more sustainable. You'll feel better. You'll even look better. And the body fat percentages becomes irrelevant. It really does. So, but you're doing a really good job and I would love to see you work with one of our coaches though, to take you through this for a while, and then I think you'd be set after that. Okay. I have loved when I've heard you say that build, build into the body. I try to keep that in my mind when I'm at the gym and stuff like, it's funny because I, when I'm at the gym, the girls I work out with, they're all like size, small, extra small. And I'm, I'm the size large, you know, like it's hard to wrap your head around that, just that comparison. And yeah, yeah. Get out of that. Yep. That, that made me, yeah, get out of that, that, that place. That's really tough. Uh, but Diane, if you want, I can have a coach call you and you're probably maybe nine months of coaching is, is what it would look like. Uh, and I think in nine months we could probably get you down to that, you know, 25 to 27% body fat with a higher metabolic rate. So yeah, I check it out. All right. I'll have somebody give you a call, but look, you're doing a good job. And I'm really proud of you for sticking to your guns because to have a trainer tell you that, and then say I train women and my numbers work and for you, because I know what that pressure feels like also the desire to want to shrink down, I had, he, had you not said he trained competitors, I would've guessed. Cause that's a typical, that's a typical, I'm going to just, just cut you real hard, have you over, you know, over trained. And then if you make it, you make it. And if you don't, well, that that's your fault. Great intuition on your part. Yeah. Great intuition. Yeah. And you'll, and you'll information that you guys feed. Cause yeah, when I hear, like when I hear you talking to other women and they've worked up to like 27, 28, 30, 3000 calories. I'm like, my mind is blown. It gives me that, like, you don't have to starve. That's right. I just see people starving themselves to be thin. And honestly, that is a better goal than some arbitrary number on a scale or body fat percentage is like, Hey, I would, could we get up to 2,800, 3000 calories? And I love the body I'm in and be strong. Yes. A hundred percent. You can a hundred percent. And that's a good goal to have. And you'll see when you're working with our coaches, how different the conversation sounds compared to like what you experienced with this other coach. So very, very different. Okay. We got you. We got you. You guys are amazing. I tell all my kids, I tell my boys, listen to them. Thank you, Diane. You're doing great. Thank you. Thank you. Yeah. You know, back to the body fat percentage thing. I know we always say low twenties. Women are always really happy, but I do got to say as women get older, they tend to be happier in the mid twenties. And it's mainly because they look younger with a higher body fat percentage, their faces look younger. And so you'll hear this from them. They'll gain a little body fat and they're like, I look better. And I feel better. Um, so it's a little different, uh, as you go through this process. And so the aiming for the low twenties, I get that. But mid twenties seems to be better as women get, uh, higher in age. She's doing really good. I'm actually, I'm super proud that her intuition to not go with the trainer. You know, uh, what I hear right away is the, the fear around the legs. Sounds like she's, I bet she's shoulder pressing and curling and doing some really good weight. Cause she's not worried about her knees. Yeah. But worried and nervous. And so good coaching, you know, find movements that she feels confident in. We really pushed the weight gets strong in her lower body. She'll see a metabolic balance right there and start to notice a difference. Um, but over and then slowly bumping those calories. And then every once in a while, put her in a cut for a couple of weeks so she can see, um, no good place. She's in a good place. So I hope she sticks with it. Look, if you like the show, come find us on Instagram. It's mind pump media. Thank you for listening to mind pump. 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