What killed the vegan movement

Millions of people have been switching Millions of people have been switching to a plant-based lifestyle in recent to a plant-based lifestyle in recent to a plant-based lifestyle in recent years. years. years. >> By 2020, the plant-based movement had >> By 2020, the plant-based movement had >> By 2020, the plant-based movement had hit peak popularity. hit peak popularity. hit peak popularity. >> An exploding movement of elite athletes >> An exploding movement of elite athletes >> An exploding movement of elite athletes are utilizing vegan diets to heal are utilizing vegan diets to heal are utilizing vegan diets to heal [music] injuries, speed recovery times, [music] injuries, speed recovery times, [music] injuries, speed recovery times, and enhance their performance. and enhance their performance. and enhance their performance. >> This plant-based trend is real. It's >> This plant-based trend is real. It's >> This plant-based trend is real. It's here. There's real serious demand. here. There's real serious demand. here. There's real serious demand. >> Beyond Meat, the [music] best performing >> Beyond Meat, the [music] best performing >> Beyond Meat, the [music] best performing IPO so far this year, up 100. IPO so far this year, up 100. IPO so far this year, up 100. >> The message was clear. This [music] was >> The message was clear. This [music] was >> The message was clear. This [music] was so of the mainstream that suddenly being so of the mainstream that suddenly being so of the mainstream that suddenly being vegan was cool. But then enthusiasm vegan was cool. But then enthusiasm vegan was cool. But then enthusiasm began to wne [music] and the movement began to wne [music] and the movement began to wne [music] and the movement basically collapsed. Beyond Stock basically collapsed. Beyond Stock basically collapsed. Beyond Stock plummeted more than 99%. plummeted more than 99%. plummeted more than 99%. >> So what the [ __ ] happened? Well, today >> So what the [ __ ] happened? Well, today >> So what the [ __ ] happened? Well, today we're going to talk about it. My name is we're going to talk about it. My name is we're going to talk about it. My name is Rich Roll. I'm a podcaster. I'm an Rich Roll. I'm a podcaster. I'm an Rich Roll. I'm a podcaster. I'm an author. I'm also an ultra endurance author. I'm also an ultra endurance author. I'm also an ultra endurance athlete. And I've been plant-based athlete. And I've been plant-based athlete. And I've been plant-based [music] [music] [music] for the better part of 20 years. My name for the better part of 20 years. My name for the better part of 20 years. My name is Simon Hill. I have a master's in is Simon Hill. I have a master's in is Simon Hill. I have a master's in nutrition science. [music] I'm also a nutrition science. [music] I'm also a nutrition science. [music] I'm also a podcaster and I'm the author of the book podcaster and I'm the author of the book podcaster and I'm the author of the book The Proof is in the plants. So, the The Proof is in the plants. So, the The Proof is in the plants. So, the purpose of this episode is essentially purpose of this episode is essentially purpose of this episode is essentially to understand what happened, how we got to understand what happened, how we got to understand what happened, how we got here, where we [music] go from here, and here, where we [music] go from here, and here, where we [music] go from here, and do an honest autopsy on [music] all the do an honest autopsy on [music] all the do an honest autopsy on [music] all the things that contributed to the faltering things that contributed to the faltering things that contributed to the faltering of this movement. So, I'm not sure where of this movement. So, I'm not sure where of this movement. So, I'm not sure where to begin. Maybe you have an overarching to begin. Maybe you have an overarching to begin. Maybe you have an overarching theory on this, Simon. theory on this, Simon. theory on this, Simon. >> I think like most things, there's a >> I think like most things, there's a >> I think like most things, there's a multitude of of factors. The cultural multitude of of factors. The cultural multitude of of factors. The cultural waters that we're swimming in today feel waters that we're swimming in today feel waters that we're swimming in today feel very different to 2020. very different to 2020. very different to 2020. >> Sure. >> Sure. >> Sure. >> And I guess the first thing that I would >> And I guess the first thing that I would >> And I guess the first thing that I would say from a a nutrition science say from a a nutrition science say from a a nutrition science perspective is I don't think the perspective is I don't think the perspective is I don't think the evidence or the science has has shifted. evidence or the science has has shifted. evidence or the science has has shifted. >> Mhm. >> Mhm. >> Mhm. >> But culture certainly has. And I agree >> But culture certainly has. And I agree >> But culture certainly has. And I agree with you, the vibe, especially in the with you, the vibe, especially in the with you, the vibe, especially in the media and and online, has changed a lot media and and online, has changed a lot media and and online, has changed a lot with regards to how we think about a with regards to how we think about a with regards to how we think about a vegan diet, what being vegan means, or a vegan diet, what being vegan means, or a vegan diet, what being vegan means, or a plant-based diet. And certainly a lot of plant-based diet. And certainly a lot of plant-based diet. And certainly a lot of energy has shifted towards more energy has shifted towards more energy has shifted towards more animal-based carnivore style diets. I animal-based carnivore style diets. I animal-based carnivore style diets. I think one of the things that's really think one of the things that's really think one of the things that's really hurt the message to eat more plants are hurt the message to eat more plants are hurt the message to eat more plants are stories like Beyond Meat where there was stories like Beyond Meat where there was stories like Beyond Meat where there was enormous hype and deep investment into a enormous hype and deep investment into a enormous hype and deep investment into a category of foods which I think if we're category of foods which I think if we're category of foods which I think if we're doing an honest audit we can say to date doing an honest audit we can say to date doing an honest audit we can say to date have have failed to live up to the hype. have have failed to live up to the hype. have have failed to live up to the hype. >> Mhm. And that category of foods, >> Mhm. And that category of foods, >> Mhm. And that category of foods, I think in 2020, we we knew that it in I think in 2020, we we knew that it in I think in 2020, we we knew that it in order for it to compete with meat, it order for it to compete with meat, it order for it to compete with meat, it needed to compete on taste and and needed to compete on taste and and needed to compete on taste and and price. price. price. And if you look in terms of what's And if you look in terms of what's And if you look in terms of what's transpired in the last five or six transpired in the last five or six transpired in the last five or six years, I don't think it's gotten to par. years, I don't think it's gotten to par. years, I don't think it's gotten to par. Certainly not on price. If you look at Certainly not on price. If you look at Certainly not on price. If you look at the price of of plant-based meat the price of of plant-based meat the price of of plant-based meat alternatives relative to say chicken, alternatives relative to say chicken, alternatives relative to say chicken, which is the most popular meat in this which is the most popular meat in this which is the most popular meat in this country, we're talking two or three country, we're talking two or three country, we're talking two or three times more expensive per pound. And times more expensive per pound. And times more expensive per pound. And we're in a an environment now where we're in a an environment now where we're in a an environment now where there's a lot of inflationary pressure. there's a lot of inflationary pressure. there's a lot of inflationary pressure. People have less money to spend at the People have less money to spend at the People have less money to spend at the grocery store, particularly lowincome um grocery store, particularly lowincome um grocery store, particularly lowincome um households. households. households. And at the same time, And at the same time, And at the same time, I don't think these foods created parody I don't think these foods created parody I don't think these foods created parody in terms of their taste experience. in terms of their taste experience. in terms of their taste experience. So when you have pressure on household So when you have pressure on household So when you have pressure on household budgets and the the food is much more budgets and the the food is much more budgets and the the food is much more expensive, the the taste is not at par, expensive, the the taste is not at par, expensive, the the taste is not at par, it kind of makes sense that those it kind of makes sense that those it kind of makes sense that those products are not going to make their way products are not going to make their way products are not going to make their way into the the the grocery um the shopping into the the the grocery um the shopping into the the the grocery um the shopping cart. And then you throw on top of that cart. And then you throw on top of that cart. And then you throw on top of that the narrative and discussion we've had the narrative and discussion we've had the narrative and discussion we've had around ultrarocessed foods over the last around ultrarocessed foods over the last around ultrarocessed foods over the last five or six years which I think is an five or six years which I think is an five or six years which I think is an important discussion but there is some important discussion but there is some important discussion but there is some nuance and context which is often left nuance and context which is often left nuance and context which is often left out. Um but I think that explains why a out. Um but I think that explains why a out. Um but I think that explains why a company like Beyond Meat hasn't company like Beyond Meat hasn't company like Beyond Meat hasn't performed. performed. performed. But what I would say is we have to be But what I would say is we have to be But what I would say is we have to be careful kind of throwing the baby out careful kind of throwing the baby out careful kind of throwing the baby out with the bath water there because with the bath water there because with the bath water there because it this would be akin to kind of saying it this would be akin to kind of saying it this would be akin to kind of saying look what's happened to Pelaton. look what's happened to Pelaton. look what's happened to Pelaton. Pelaton's stock has tanked and Pelaton's stock has tanked and Pelaton's stock has tanked and yet we we don't say fitness is over or yet we we don't say fitness is over or yet we we don't say fitness is over or cycling's over. cycling's over. cycling's over. >> It's it's it's one example of a of a >> It's it's it's one example of a of a >> It's it's it's one example of a of a company whose model hasn't survived in company whose model hasn't survived in company whose model hasn't survived in this current environment and Beyond Meat this current environment and Beyond Meat this current environment and Beyond Meat is that. Yet underneath that, I think is that. Yet underneath that, I think is that. Yet underneath that, I think the the message around eating more the the message around eating more the the message around eating more plant-based, plant-based, plant-based, particularly whole or minimally particularly whole or minimally particularly whole or minimally processed plant foods, being healthy, processed plant foods, being healthy, processed plant foods, being healthy, protecting you from the the types of protecting you from the the types of protecting you from the the types of chronic diseases that are affecting a chronic diseases that are affecting a chronic diseases that are affecting a lot of people in this country in America lot of people in this country in America lot of people in this country in America and in Australia is is just as true and and in Australia is is just as true and and in Australia is is just as true and strong as ever, if not stronger, with strong as ever, if not stronger, with strong as ever, if not stronger, with more evidence being published over the more evidence being published over the more evidence being published over the last 5 years. last 5 years. last 5 years. >> The way I see it, I agree with you. >> The way I see it, I agree with you. >> The way I see it, I agree with you. There's a there's a multitude of factors There's a there's a multitude of factors There's a there's a multitude of factors that have contributed to uh this that have contributed to uh this that have contributed to uh this situation, but I see it breaking down situation, but I see it breaking down situation, but I see it breaking down into three primary categories, all of into three primary categories, all of into three primary categories, all of which you you just referenced. One, which you you just referenced. One, which you you just referenced. One, there have been significant cultural and there have been significant cultural and there have been significant cultural and political shifts that have changed political shifts that have changed political shifts that have changed people's perspectives on um diet and people's perspectives on um diet and people's perspectives on um diet and nutrition. Uh that I consider to be the nutrition. Uh that I consider to be the nutrition. Uh that I consider to be the third. third. third. The second is that vegans can be their The second is that vegans can be their The second is that vegans can be their own worst enemies in the way they own worst enemies in the way they own worst enemies in the way they comport themselves and carry this comport themselves and carry this comport themselves and carry this message. Uh and the first and what you message. Uh and the first and what you message. Uh and the first and what you were just speaking about is a lack of were just speaking about is a lack of were just speaking about is a lack of honesty and transparency around the honesty and transparency around the honesty and transparency around the health implications of living the health implications of living the health implications of living the plant-based lifestyle and eating a diet plant-based lifestyle and eating a diet plant-based lifestyle and eating a diet that is devoid of animal products. When that is devoid of animal products. When that is devoid of animal products. When you look at Beyond Meat or Impossible you look at Beyond Meat or Impossible you look at Beyond Meat or Impossible Foods or Oatley, like the stock prices Foods or Oatley, like the stock prices Foods or Oatley, like the stock prices of these companies are in the tank and of these companies are in the tank and of these companies are in the tank and grocery stores that used to have grocery stores that used to have grocery stores that used to have gigantic sections devoted to plant-based gigantic sections devoted to plant-based gigantic sections devoted to plant-based milks or meat and dairy alternatives milks or meat and dairy alternatives milks or meat and dairy alternatives have shrunk. The appetite for these have shrunk. The appetite for these have shrunk. The appetite for these products has been reduced. And it does products has been reduced. And it does products has been reduced. And it does have a lot to do with have a lot to do with have a lot to do with the way that the health benefits or the way that the health benefits or the way that the health benefits or health implications of these products health implications of these products health implications of these products were communicated publicly. And I think were communicated publicly. And I think were communicated publicly. And I think there's culpability with the influential there's culpability with the influential there's culpability with the influential members of this movement in carrying members of this movement in carrying members of this movement in carrying that message less responsibly than they that message less responsibly than they that message less responsibly than they could. I think that when you look at could. I think that when you look at could. I think that when you look at them, you can make the argument that them, you can make the argument that them, you can make the argument that they are healthier in the wash in they are healthier in the wash in they are healthier in the wash in comparison to their animal versions of comparison to their animal versions of comparison to their animal versions of them. But the communication was them. But the communication was them. But the communication was presenting them as health foods when in presenting them as health foods when in presenting them as health foods when in fact most of them are pretty highly fact most of them are pretty highly fact most of them are pretty highly processed foods. And I think people felt processed foods. And I think people felt processed foods. And I think people felt gas lit a little bit like they're being gas lit a little bit like they're being gas lit a little bit like they're being fed a lie that was pretty transparent. fed a lie that was pretty transparent. fed a lie that was pretty transparent. And that led to a breach of trust And that led to a breach of trust And that led to a breach of trust between the public and the people who between the public and the people who between the public and the people who were kind of most influential in the were kind of most influential in the were kind of most influential in the movement. Um, and I think that that movement. Um, and I think that that movement. Um, and I think that that contributed to people kind of breaking contributed to people kind of breaking contributed to people kind of breaking up with whatever short-term affair they up with whatever short-term affair they up with whatever short-term affair they had or flirtation they had with eating a had or flirtation they had with eating a had or flirtation they had with eating a more plant predominant diet. Yeah. I more plant predominant diet. Yeah. I more plant predominant diet. Yeah. I think the the phrase that that I heard a think the the phrase that that I heard a think the the phrase that that I heard a lot and I've used it myself is lot and I've used it myself is lot and I've used it myself is transition foods for for these types of transition foods for for these types of transition foods for for these types of foods. Um because if you look at the foods. Um because if you look at the foods. Um because if you look at the research on on plant-based dietary research on on plant-based dietary research on on plant-based dietary patterns and these health outcomes, patterns and these health outcomes, patterns and these health outcomes, you're right, it's not looking at that you're right, it's not looking at that you're right, it's not looking at that category of ultrarocessed foods. People category of ultrarocessed foods. People category of ultrarocessed foods. People in populations of the world that are in populations of the world that are in populations of the world that are eating plants and living long lives are eating plants and living long lives are eating plants and living long lives are eating more legumes and beans and eating more legumes and beans and eating more legumes and beans and lentils and tofus and chickpeas, they're lentils and tofus and chickpeas, they're lentils and tofus and chickpeas, they're not eating beyond burger. They're not not eating beyond burger. They're not not eating beyond burger. They're not eating uh oat. So I think that's a eating uh oat. So I think that's a eating uh oat. So I think that's a that's a fair summary. Um that said, I that's a fair summary. Um that said, I that's a fair summary. Um that said, I think a lot of the educators in this think a lot of the educators in this think a lot of the educators in this space have felt that it's unrealistic to space have felt that it's unrealistic to space have felt that it's unrealistic to get people to give up chicken and red get people to give up chicken and red get people to give up chicken and red meat and just eat beans and lentils. meat and just eat beans and lentils. meat and just eat beans and lentils. >> Sure. So, let's give them uh a palatable >> Sure. So, let's give them uh a palatable >> Sure. So, let's give them uh a palatable alternative that will acclimate them to alternative that will acclimate them to alternative that will acclimate them to this way of eating. But what gets missed this way of eating. But what gets missed this way of eating. But what gets missed in that is the fact that the healthiest in that is the fact that the healthiest in that is the fact that the healthiest version of this way of eating is eating version of this way of eating is eating version of this way of eating is eating these plant foods closest to their these plant foods closest to their these plant foods closest to their natural state. And then it became all natural state. And then it became all natural state. And then it became all about like palatability. And you know, about like palatability. And you know, about like palatability. And you know, everywhere you turn, there was a new everywhere you turn, there was a new everywhere you turn, there was a new like coconut ice cream or like this kind like coconut ice cream or like this kind like coconut ice cream or like this kind of cookie or cracker or burger or of cookie or cracker or burger or of cookie or cracker or burger or chicken nugget. And these things are chicken nugget. And these things are chicken nugget. And these things are tantamount to just eating a fast food tantamount to just eating a fast food tantamount to just eating a fast food diet essentially. And the idea that diet essentially. And the idea that diet essentially. And the idea that you're doing something uh healthier than you're doing something uh healthier than you're doing something uh healthier than you were before isn't actually isn't you were before isn't actually isn't you were before isn't actually isn't actually correct. And when I think about actually correct. And when I think about actually correct. And when I think about the plant-based lifestyle, there's three the plant-based lifestyle, there's three the plant-based lifestyle, there's three on-ramps to this. You can be motivated on-ramps to this. You can be motivated on-ramps to this. You can be motivated or incentivized by the ethical or incentivized by the ethical or incentivized by the ethical considerations like you you would like considerations like you you would like considerations like you you would like to opt out of participating in this to opt out of participating in this to opt out of participating in this cycle of suffering that is incident to cycle of suffering that is incident to cycle of suffering that is incident to you know industrialized factory farming you know industrialized factory farming you know industrialized factory farming where billions of animals are where billions of animals are where billions of animals are slaughtered every year. Uh there are the slaughtered every year. Uh there are the slaughtered every year. Uh there are the sustainability and environmental sustainability and environmental sustainability and environmental considerations of eating a diet that is considerations of eating a diet that is considerations of eating a diet that is a little gentler on the planet. And then a little gentler on the planet. And then a little gentler on the planet. And then thirdly, there are the health reasons. thirdly, there are the health reasons. thirdly, there are the health reasons. And I think in terms of the health And I think in terms of the health And I think in terms of the health benefits or health implications of this benefits or health implications of this benefits or health implications of this diet, there was some bungling around the diet, there was some bungling around the diet, there was some bungling around the messaging. messaging. messaging. >> Yeah. on behalf of people who were >> Yeah. on behalf of people who were >> Yeah. on behalf of people who were predominantly motivated by the other predominantly motivated by the other predominantly motivated by the other concerns, be they environmental or concerns, be they environmental or concerns, be they environmental or ethical, uh that that created a sort of ethical, uh that that created a sort of ethical, uh that that created a sort of um like, you know, this is good for um like, you know, this is good for um like, you know, this is good for people and I'm going to contextualize it people and I'm going to contextualize it people and I'm going to contextualize it in a way that is going to make it in a way that is going to make it in a way that is going to make it attractive to them, but isn't exactly attractive to them, but isn't exactly attractive to them, but isn't exactly completely honest. Yeah, there's completely honest. Yeah, there's completely honest. Yeah, there's you run the risk of you run the risk of you run the risk of uh kind of convincing yourself that I'm uh kind of convincing yourself that I'm uh kind of convincing yourself that I'm going to oversimplify things for the for going to oversimplify things for the for going to oversimplify things for the for the greater good here to the to the the greater good here to the to the the greater good here to the to the person that's receiving the information. person that's receiving the information. person that's receiving the information. But in the process of that, you're not But in the process of that, you're not But in the process of that, you're not being completely objective and you lose being completely objective and you lose being completely objective and you lose trust. And more specifically what I mean trust. And more specifically what I mean trust. And more specifically what I mean there is and I outline in my book and of there is and I outline in my book and of there is and I outline in my book and of the three things that you just mentioned the three things that you just mentioned the three things that you just mentioned the three kind of on-ramps to eating a the three kind of on-ramps to eating a the three kind of on-ramps to eating a plant exclusive plant-based vegan diet plant exclusive plant-based vegan diet plant exclusive plant-based vegan diet whatever you want to say the the whatever you want to say the the whatever you want to say the the strongest argument is ethical and the strongest argument is ethical and the strongest argument is ethical and the sustainable argument. sustainable argument. sustainable argument. >> Yeah for sure >> Yeah for sure >> Yeah for sure >> uh it's it's very hard impossible to >> uh it's it's very hard impossible to >> uh it's it's very hard impossible to make the argument based on human health make the argument based on human health make the argument based on human health alone. When you look at the nutrition alone. When you look at the nutrition alone. When you look at the nutrition science itself, there are a variety of science itself, there are a variety of science itself, there are a variety of different dietary patterns that lead to different dietary patterns that lead to different dietary patterns that lead to great health outcomes. Mediterranean great health outcomes. Mediterranean great health outcomes. Mediterranean diet, the mind diet, the DASH diet, diet, the mind diet, the DASH diet, diet, the mind diet, the DASH diet, vegetarian, vegan, all done in in a vegetarian, vegan, all done in in a vegetarian, vegan, all done in in a healthful way with the focus on un healthful way with the focus on un healthful way with the focus on un unprocessed, minimally processed foods unprocessed, minimally processed foods unprocessed, minimally processed foods can all be very healthy and deliver can all be very healthy and deliver can all be very healthy and deliver great health outcomes. And we don't have great health outcomes. And we don't have great health outcomes. And we don't have the definitive research to say that the the definitive research to say that the the definitive research to say that the plant exclusive diet is significantly plant exclusive diet is significantly plant exclusive diet is significantly better than than the other ones. And as better than than the other ones. And as better than than the other ones. And as you say, I think that that message uh you say, I think that that message uh you say, I think that that message uh was lost was lost was lost [snorts] uh in the communication from [snorts] uh in the communication from [snorts] uh in the communication from some folks who who their intentions are some folks who who their intentions are some folks who who their intentions are are good. The intention is pure. It is are good. The intention is pure. It is are good. The intention is pure. It is that you know they care about the the that you know they care about the the that you know they care about the the welfare of animals and the welfare of animals and the welfare of animals and the sustainability of the planet. So sustainability of the planet. So sustainability of the planet. So simplifying the message is an easy thing simplifying the message is an easy thing simplifying the message is an easy thing for people to for people to for people to >> reduce it down to something, you know, >> reduce it down to something, you know, >> reduce it down to something, you know, that is easy to remember uh that's that is easy to remember uh that's that is easy to remember uh that's somewhat reductive uh but also somewhat reductive uh but also somewhat reductive uh but also dismissive of people's legitimate dismissive of people's legitimate dismissive of people's legitimate concerns. Like to say like don't worry concerns. Like to say like don't worry concerns. Like to say like don't worry about B12, don't worry about protein, about B12, don't worry about protein, about B12, don't worry about protein, don't worry about the like it it's it's don't worry about the like it it's it's don't worry about the like it it's it's all going to be fine. Just like do this all going to be fine. Just like do this all going to be fine. Just like do this and you don't have to worry about it and you don't have to worry about it and you don't have to worry about it isn't exactly isn't exactly isn't exactly uh responsible or correct. And I think uh responsible or correct. And I think uh responsible or correct. And I think we can both say that based upon our we can both say that based upon our we can both say that based upon our personal experience. You as a scientist personal experience. You as a scientist personal experience. You as a scientist and also somebody who's been plant-based and also somebody who's been plant-based and also somebody who's been plant-based for a very long time and myself as again for a very long time and myself as again for a very long time and myself as again somebody who's been doing this for somebody who's been doing this for somebody who's been doing this for almost two decades and has been an almost two decades and has been an almost two decades and has been an athlete and the like like we've lived athlete and the like like we've lived athlete and the like like we've lived it. also think that there there's a it. also think that there there's a it. also think that there there's a level of humility that's required here level of humility that's required here level of humility that's required here that just says look the nutrition that just says look the nutrition that just says look the nutrition science can tell us a lot and we get science can tell us a lot and we get science can tell us a lot and we get typical results average results but at typical results average results but at typical results average results but at an individual level I don't know if if an individual level I don't know if if an individual level I don't know if if if a a vegan diet works for absolutely if a a vegan diet works for absolutely if a a vegan diet works for absolutely everyone if 100% plant-based works for everyone if 100% plant-based works for everyone if 100% plant-based works for absolutely everyone and we can absolutely everyone and we can absolutely everyone and we can communicate what the science shows in communicate what the science shows in communicate what the science shows in terms of average typical results terms of average typical results terms of average typical results But ultimately, we shouldn't have But ultimately, we shouldn't have But ultimately, we shouldn't have someone feel uh guilty or shameful if someone feel uh guilty or shameful if someone feel uh guilty or shameful if they weren't able to get there and they they weren't able to get there and they they weren't able to get there and they feel better on on a plant predominant feel better on on a plant predominant feel better on on a plant predominant diet for for example. And so I think diet for for example. And so I think diet for for example. And so I think some of the the communication around some of the the communication around some of the the communication around absolutes rather than kind of meeting absolutes rather than kind of meeting absolutes rather than kind of meeting people where they're at and encouraging people where they're at and encouraging people where they're at and encouraging people to to add more fiber, more plants people to to add more fiber, more plants people to to add more fiber, more plants to the diet and find a way of eating to the diet and find a way of eating to the diet and find a way of eating that is sustainable while at the same that is sustainable while at the same that is sustainable while at the same time being better from an animal welfare time being better from an animal welfare time being better from an animal welfare perspective, gentler on the planet. Uh, perspective, gentler on the planet. Uh, perspective, gentler on the planet. Uh, I feel like that is more empathetic and I feel like that is more empathetic and I feel like that is more empathetic and would be better received by a a would be better received by a a would be better received by a a population. population. population. >> Yeah, I can cop to some culpability >> Yeah, I can cop to some culpability >> Yeah, I can cop to some culpability around that. Um, I've never judged around that. Um, I've never judged around that. Um, I've never judged people or taken their inventory or people or taken their inventory or people or taken their inventory or shamed them or kind of engaged in in in shamed them or kind of engaged in in in shamed them or kind of engaged in in in in that kind of, you know, rhetorical in that kind of, you know, rhetorical in that kind of, you know, rhetorical strategy. But I know that I have been strategy. But I know that I have been strategy. But I know that I have been reductive in my communication and I've reductive in my communication and I've reductive in my communication and I've also um advocated also um advocated also um advocated uh on behalf of this lifestyle based uh on behalf of this lifestyle based uh on behalf of this lifestyle based upon my personal experience like upon my personal experience like upon my personal experience like extrapolating from that like I feel so extrapolating from that like I feel so extrapolating from that like I feel so much better. So then you will too much better. So then you will too much better. So then you will too without fully appreciating the the fact without fully appreciating the the fact without fully appreciating the the fact that everybody kind of has a different that everybody kind of has a different that everybody kind of has a different physiology and what works for me isn't physiology and what works for me isn't physiology and what works for me isn't necessarily going to work for you. like necessarily going to work for you. like necessarily going to work for you. like I think I didn't adequately um I think I didn't adequately um I think I didn't adequately um appreciate that in the way that I have appreciate that in the way that I have appreciate that in the way that I have communicated uh in the past. communicated uh in the past. communicated uh in the past. >> I think that's an important share and I >> I think that's an important share and I >> I think that's an important share and I think we can all get excited by how our think we can all get excited by how our think we can all get excited by how our N equals 1 experience and want to share N equals 1 experience and want to share N equals 1 experience and want to share it and the intent is good. it and the intent is good. it and the intent is good. >> You want to evangelize. Oh my god, like >> You want to evangelize. Oh my god, like >> You want to evangelize. Oh my god, like this happened. I feel so great. I want this happened. I feel so great. I want this happened. I feel so great. I want everyone to feel this good. Like do this everyone to feel this good. Like do this everyone to feel this good. Like do this and you'll feel the same way. And then and you'll feel the same way. And then and you'll feel the same way. And then somebody does it, they have a different somebody does it, they have a different somebody does it, they have a different experience and then your instinct is experience and then your instinct is experience and then your instinct is well you're not doing it right. like uh well you're not doing it right. like uh well you're not doing it right. like uh you maybe you didn't do this or you you maybe you didn't do this or you you maybe you didn't do this or you didn't do that. Like you're going to didn't do that. Like you're going to didn't do that. Like you're going to dismiss their dismiss their dismiss their differential as as as being the result differential as as as being the result differential as as as being the result of them not doing it exactly the way of them not doing it exactly the way of them not doing it exactly the way that you did instead of just saying, that you did instead of just saying, that you did instead of just saying, "Well, maybe you're different and maybe "Well, maybe you're different and maybe "Well, maybe you're different and maybe this isn't going to work for you." And this isn't going to work for you." And this isn't going to work for you." And by the way, that's the same thing that by the way, that's the same thing that by the way, that's the same thing that can occur when someone eats a carnivore can occur when someone eats a carnivore can occur when someone eats a carnivore diet or a keto diet and they jump on diet or a keto diet and they jump on diet or a keto diet and they jump on across the board across the board across the board >> and they're enthusiastic and sharing >> and they're enthusiastic and sharing >> and they're enthusiastic and sharing about their experience and the results about their experience and the results about their experience and the results they had in the short term. And so at they had in the short term. And so at they had in the short term. And so at the same time that also leaves me the same time that also leaves me the same time that also leaves me feeling kind of understanding and feeling kind of understanding and feeling kind of understanding and empathetic of that individual and what empathetic of that individual and what empathetic of that individual and what might promote someone to go online. and might promote someone to go online. and might promote someone to go online. and and the the difference between these and the the difference between these and the the difference between these different types of anecdotes. I bring it different types of anecdotes. I bring it different types of anecdotes. I bring it back to the overwhelming body of back to the overwhelming body of back to the overwhelming body of evidence, which is that evidence, which is that evidence, which is that >> that's why you're here. >> that's why you're here. >> that's why you're here. >> The dietary patterns, there are >> The dietary patterns, there are >> The dietary patterns, there are anecdotes everywhere we can pull and anecdotes everywhere we can pull and anecdotes everywhere we can pull and there's enthusiasm everywhere. And I there's enthusiasm everywhere. And I there's enthusiasm everywhere. And I think that's great because underneath think that's great because underneath think that's great because underneath that is people wanting to share because that is people wanting to share because that is people wanting to share because they want others to get the benefits they want others to get the benefits they want others to get the benefits they felt. they felt. they felt. The evidence base tells us that The evidence base tells us that The evidence base tells us that consistently the people that are doing consistently the people that are doing consistently the people that are doing best over decades are people that are best over decades are people that are best over decades are people that are eating these high-fiber plant eating these high-fiber plant eating these high-fiber plant predominant style diets that are lower predominant style diets that are lower predominant style diets that are lower in saturated fats and are lower in in in saturated fats and are lower in in in saturated fats and are lower in in ultrarocessed foods. ultrarocessed foods. ultrarocessed foods. >> Mhm. So the reckoning here is is >> Mhm. So the reckoning here is is >> Mhm. So the reckoning here is is basically uh basically uh basically uh owning the fact that a lack of owning the fact that a lack of owning the fact that a lack of transparency or perhaps just a uh a transparency or perhaps just a uh a transparency or perhaps just a uh a communication strategy communication strategy communication strategy um that that that includes the nuance um that that that includes the nuance um that that that includes the nuance and avoids the reductive claims would and avoids the reductive claims would and avoids the reductive claims would have maintained a degree of trust that have maintained a degree of trust that have maintained a degree of trust that perhaps would have been better. and not perhaps would have been better. and not perhaps would have been better. and not left people feeling like they weren't left people feeling like they weren't left people feeling like they weren't being being being um lied to or misdirected. Yeah. um lied to or misdirected. Yeah. um lied to or misdirected. Yeah. >> Or influenced in a way that was based >> Or influenced in a way that was based >> Or influenced in a way that was based upon some other agenda that wasn't uh upon some other agenda that wasn't uh upon some other agenda that wasn't uh you know that wasn't on the surface. you know that wasn't on the surface. you know that wasn't on the surface. >> Totally. I also think you know from my >> Totally. I also think you know from my >> Totally. I also think you know from my seat and I think it's important on these seat and I think it's important on these seat and I think it's important on these types of things for everyone to think types of things for everyone to think types of things for everyone to think about where are you responsible. I feel about where are you responsible. I feel about where are you responsible. I feel culpable in that culpable in that culpable in that I coming into this space, you know, as I coming into this space, you know, as I coming into this space, you know, as someone who is a bit younger than some someone who is a bit younger than some someone who is a bit younger than some of the people putting information out of the people putting information out of the people putting information out ahead of me, uh, have found times where ahead of me, uh, have found times where ahead of me, uh, have found times where I tiptoe around things and haven't I tiptoe around things and haven't I tiptoe around things and haven't really found like the strength in my really found like the strength in my really found like the strength in my voice to communicate voice to communicate voice to communicate uh, in response to some of the uh, in response to some of the uh, in response to some of the observations that you've seen where in observations that you've seen where in observations that you've seen where in my view there has been irresponsible my view there has been irresponsible my view there has been irresponsible kind of education around things like kind of education around things like kind of education around things like protein or vitamin B12 12 or eating a protein or vitamin B12 12 or eating a protein or vitamin B12 12 or eating a very very lowfat [music] plant-based very very lowfat [music] plant-based very very lowfat [music] plant-based diet. diet. diet. >> The types of things that can set someone >> The types of things that can set someone >> The types of things that can set someone up to to fail. So, I think there's a up to to fail. So, I think there's a up to to fail. So, I think there's a space space space to for me to have respectful dialogue to for me to have respectful dialogue to for me to have respectful dialogue about those things instead of focusing about those things instead of focusing about those things instead of focusing so much of my attention on what is the so much of my attention on what is the so much of my attention on what is the low carb community doing. One of the things I hear constantly from One of the things I hear constantly from people in this community is, "I have an people in this community is, "I have an people in this community is, "I have an idea, but I don't know where to start." idea, but I don't know where to start." idea, but I don't know where to start." To which I say, "Whatever you imagine is To which I say, "Whatever you imagine is To which I say, "Whatever you imagine is holding you back exists only in your holding you back exists only in your holding you back exists only in your imagination." Let's say you have an idea imagination." Let's say you have an idea imagination." Let's say you have an idea to start a coaching practice, perhaps a to start a coaching practice, perhaps a to start a coaching practice, perhaps a creative project, a business, or a creative project, a business, or a creative project, a business, or a course. Whatever it is, a great way to course. Whatever it is, a great way to course. Whatever it is, a great way to turn imagination into reality is by turn imagination into reality is by turn imagination into reality is by giving it a home online. And that is giving it a home online. And that is giving it a home online. And that is where Squarespace comes in. Squarespace where Squarespace comes in. 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And when you're ready for a free trial. And when you're ready to launch, use offer code richoll to to launch, use offer code richoll to to launch, use offer code richoll to save 10% off your first purchase of a save 10% off your first purchase of a save 10% off your first purchase of a website or domain. This episode is brought to you by This episode is brought to you by Airbnb, which I use all the time because Airbnb, which I use all the time because Airbnb, which I use all the time because I travel all the time. And now that I'm I travel all the time. And now that I'm I travel all the time. And now that I'm back after back surgery to being very back after back surgery to being very back after back surgery to being very focused on my fitness and my nutrition, focused on my fitness and my nutrition, focused on my fitness and my nutrition, it's even more important that where I it's even more important that where I it's even more important that where I stay be equipped with a nice kitchen to stay be equipped with a nice kitchen to stay be equipped with a nice kitchen to prepare my own meals and also be prepare my own meals and also be prepare my own meals and also be proximate to a really good gym, which proximate to a really good gym, which proximate to a really good gym, which means it's pretty much Airbnb for me all means it's pretty much Airbnb for me all means it's pretty much Airbnb for me all the way, including the trip to DC that I the way, including the trip to DC that I the way, including the trip to DC that I just returned from. [music] And when I just returned from. [music] And when I just returned from. [music] And when I was in the airport on my return, was in the airport on my return, was in the airport on my return, watching all the travelers going to and watching all the travelers going to and watching all the travelers going to and fro, I started wondering about their fro, I started wondering about their fro, I started wondering about their homes and how many of them were like the homes and how many of them were like the homes and how many of them were like the one I just stayed at, but just sitting one I just stayed at, but just sitting one I just stayed at, but just sitting there empty. Few days here, a long there empty. Few days here, a long there empty. Few days here, a long weekend there. Those gaps add up and are weekend there. Those gaps add up and are weekend there. Those gaps add up and are actually opportunities. If you're actually opportunities. If you're actually opportunities. 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If you're close to making a switch to an If you're close to making a switch to an electric vehicle, you probably have a electric vehicle, you probably have a electric vehicle, you probably have a few lingering questions, and they're few lingering questions, and they're few lingering questions, and they're probably about things like charging, probably about things like charging, probably about things like charging, [music] range, how this actually fits [music] range, how this actually fits [music] range, how this actually fits into your day-to-day life. I remember into your day-to-day life. I remember into your day-to-day life. I remember being right [music] there. And what being right [music] there. And what being right [music] there. And what surprised me most is how quickly those surprised me most is how quickly those surprised me most is how quickly those concerns don't just get answered, they concerns don't just get answered, they concerns don't just get answered, they just disappear. Because charging becomes just disappear. Because charging becomes just disappear. Because charging becomes something you do at home. You plug in at something you do at home. You plug in at something you do at home. You plug in at night and in the morning you're just night and in the morning you're just night and in the morning you're just ready. No detours, no stops. With ready. No detours, no stops. With ready. No detours, no stops. With Rivian, you have more than enough range Rivian, you have more than enough range Rivian, you have more than enough range for everyday driving. And for road for everyday driving. And for road for everyday driving. And for road trips, the vehicle handles the planning, trips, the vehicle handles the planning, trips, the vehicle handles the planning, maps your route, [music] and tells you maps your route, [music] and tells you maps your route, [music] and tells you exactly when and where to charge. And exactly when and where to charge. And exactly when and where to charge. And then there's everything else that then there's everything else that then there's everything else that quietly fades away. Gas stations, oil quietly fades away. Gas stations, oil quietly fades away. Gas stations, oil changes, all the little maintenance changes, all the little maintenance changes, all the little maintenance things that used to take up time and things that used to take up time and things that used to take up time and attention. It's not that you adjust to attention. It's not that you adjust to attention. It's not that you adjust to it. It's just that life gets simpler and it. It's just that life gets simpler and it. It's just that life gets simpler and once you experience that, it's hard to once you experience that, it's hard to once you experience that, it's hard to imagine going back. Learn more and imagine going back. Learn more and imagine going back. Learn more and schedule a demo drive near you at schedule a demo drive near you at schedule a demo drive near you at rivan.com. [music] I too have platformed people on the I too have platformed people on the podcast, these advocates of a podcast, these advocates of a podcast, these advocates of a plant-based lifestyle, a vegan way of plant-based lifestyle, a vegan way of plant-based lifestyle, a vegan way of eating, who I later discovered were more eating, who I later discovered were more eating, who I later discovered were more motivated by the ethical considerations. motivated by the ethical considerations. motivated by the ethical considerations. These were people who are fundamentally These were people who are fundamentally These were people who are fundamentally animal rights activists who came onto animal rights activists who came onto animal rights activists who came onto the podcast or wrote books um supporting the podcast or wrote books um supporting the podcast or wrote books um supporting the health considerations behind eating the health considerations behind eating the health considerations behind eating this way. And this way. And this way. And that's not so great like to reflect back that's not so great like to reflect back that's not so great like to reflect back and realize like I participated in and realize like I participated in and realize like I participated in something that lacked that degree of something that lacked that degree of something that lacked that degree of transparency. And again, these are transparency. And again, these are transparency. And again, these are people that I like and I think they have people that I like and I think they have people that I like and I think they have the best of intentions, but I think the the best of intentions, but I think the the best of intentions, but I think the fact that they decided to communicate a fact that they decided to communicate a fact that they decided to communicate a health message that that was really kind health message that that was really kind health message that that was really kind of a Trojan horse for an ethical message of a Trojan horse for an ethical message of a Trojan horse for an ethical message isn't in the best service of the public isn't in the best service of the public isn't in the best service of the public >> because I think people can kind of they >> because I think people can kind of they >> because I think people can kind of they kind of know, you know what I mean? And kind of know, you know what I mean? And kind of know, you know what I mean? And so I've trafficked in that in the past. so I've trafficked in that in the past. so I've trafficked in that in the past. And in recent years I've been very And in recent years I've been very And in recent years I've been very careful to avoid that because although I careful to avoid that because although I careful to avoid that because although I love this lifestyle and I've been love this lifestyle and I've been love this lifestyle and I've been thriving on it and you [snorts] know I thriving on it and you [snorts] know I thriving on it and you [snorts] know I encourage people to try it, I think the encourage people to try it, I think the encourage people to try it, I think the trust that I have with my audience is trust that I have with my audience is trust that I have with my audience is paramount and I don't want to paramount and I don't want to paramount and I don't want to participate in platforming somebody that participate in platforming somebody that participate in platforming somebody that is putting me in a position where that is putting me in a position where that is putting me in a position where that trust is going to get eroded. trust is going to get eroded. trust is going to get eroded. >> Yeah. For example, you know, some of >> Yeah. For example, you know, some of >> Yeah. For example, you know, some of that messaging historically, if we're if that messaging historically, if we're if that messaging historically, if we're if we're to make this specific, has been, we're to make this specific, has been, we're to make this specific, has been, you know, around foods like dairy all you know, around foods like dairy all you know, around foods like dairy all being unhealthy or poison or causing being unhealthy or poison or causing being unhealthy or poison or causing cancer or all animal protein at any dose cancer or all animal protein at any dose cancer or all animal protein at any dose being problematic. being problematic. being problematic. >> And the reality is when you when you >> And the reality is when you when you >> And the reality is when you when you look at the science look at the science look at the science when it comes to dairy, it's very when it comes to dairy, it's very when it comes to dairy, it's very context dependent. The dose matters. The context dependent. The dose matters. The context dependent. The dose matters. The type of dairy, is it fermented? Foods type of dairy, is it fermented? Foods type of dairy, is it fermented? Foods like yogurt and cheese tend to be like yogurt and cheese tend to be like yogurt and cheese tend to be neutral or perhaps healthy depending on neutral or perhaps healthy depending on neutral or perhaps healthy depending on the population. Animal protein itself is the population. Animal protein itself is the population. Animal protein itself is such an umbrella term when you break it such an umbrella term when you break it such an umbrella term when you break it down. Fatty fish tends to be healthy, down. Fatty fish tends to be healthy, down. Fatty fish tends to be healthy, neutral. Is it better or worse than neutral. Is it better or worse than neutral. Is it better or worse than legumes? We don't really have a signal legumes? We don't really have a signal legumes? We don't really have a signal there. But the issue issue is when you there. But the issue issue is when you there. But the issue issue is when you overstate it and say speak in absolutes overstate it and say speak in absolutes overstate it and say speak in absolutes that fish is a problem for health. All that fish is a problem for health. All that fish is a problem for health. All dairy is a problem for health. And as dairy is a problem for health. And as dairy is a problem for health. And as you say, I think people are people are you say, I think people are people are you say, I think people are people are quite astute and [clears throat] um quite astute and [clears throat] um quite astute and [clears throat] um eventually the truth surfaces. And when eventually the truth surfaces. And when eventually the truth surfaces. And when it does surface that hang on, fatty fish it does surface that hang on, fatty fish it does surface that hang on, fatty fish could be could be beneficial or neutral, could be could be beneficial or neutral, could be could be beneficial or neutral, some types of dairy, aren't poison, dose some types of dairy, aren't poison, dose some types of dairy, aren't poison, dose matters, then you start to question matters, then you start to question matters, then you start to question everything that that person was saying. everything that that person was saying. everything that that person was saying. >> And that's when that the the trust. >> And that's when that the the trust. >> And that's when that the the trust. >> Yeah. That's a setup for the movement to >> Yeah. That's a setup for the movement to >> Yeah. That's a setup for the movement to falter because it can't be it can't it falter because it can't be it can't it falter because it can't be it can't it can't when it sits upon a faulty can't when it sits upon a faulty can't when it sits upon a faulty foundation a foundation of some degree foundation a foundation of some degree foundation a foundation of some degree of of mistrust then you know it's not of of mistrust then you know it's not of of mistrust then you know it's not going to thrive. And so if you want it going to thrive. And so if you want it going to thrive. And so if you want it to thrive to thrive to thrive having a conversation like this is having a conversation like this is having a conversation like this is important to you know kind of important to you know kind of important to you know kind of recalibrate people and set the stage for recalibrate people and set the stage for recalibrate people and set the stage for an open and honest discourse. However, an open and honest discourse. However, an open and honest discourse. However, the the the feedback you get the the the feedback you get the the the feedback you get is interesting here because is interesting here because is interesting here because if you speak in the absolute kind of if you speak in the absolute kind of if you speak in the absolute kind of extreme way, extreme way, extreme way, >> the initial feedback you get is a >> the initial feedback you get is a >> the initial feedback you get is a reward. It's longterm. We're seeing the reward. It's longterm. We're seeing the reward. It's longterm. We're seeing the repercussions now, right? repercussions now, right? repercussions now, right? >> But initially that absolute language was >> But initially that absolute language was >> But initially that absolute language was absolutely embraced by the vegan absolutely embraced by the vegan absolutely embraced by the vegan community. And I know from my early community. And I know from my early community. And I know from my early days, like even publishing my book, I days, like even publishing my book, I days, like even publishing my book, I got email after email from from people got email after email from from people got email after email from from people who are are um ethical vegans who didn't who are are um ethical vegans who didn't who are are um ethical vegans who didn't love my message of of context and nuance love my message of of context and nuance love my message of of context and nuance because it felt like I was leaving the because it felt like I was leaving the because it felt like I was leaving the door open that I wasn't being firm door open that I wasn't being firm door open that I wasn't being firm enough with my language and and um enough with my language and and um enough with my language and and um through correspondence I would, you through correspondence I would, you through correspondence I would, you know, where where I did have know, where where I did have know, where where I did have correspondence with these people, I correspondence with these people, I correspondence with these people, I would explain that my job was to convey would explain that my job was to convey would explain that my job was to convey the nutrition science objectively, But the nutrition science objectively, But the nutrition science objectively, But I think the trap is that back in 2020 I think the trap is that back in 2020 I think the trap is that back in 2020 leading with that absolute language was leading with that absolute language was leading with that absolute language was embraced and you were kind of platformed embraced and you were kind of platformed embraced and you were kind of platformed and elevated and so the immediate fe and elevated and so the immediate fe and elevated and so the immediate fe feedback was positive. feedback was positive. feedback was positive. >> Well, it's the incentive structure of >> Well, it's the incentive structure of >> Well, it's the incentive structure of the attention economy. Like if you want the attention economy. Like if you want the attention economy. Like if you want to stand out and get attention, you have to stand out and get attention, you have to stand out and get attention, you have to speak in absolutes and you have to be to speak in absolutes and you have to be to speak in absolutes and you have to be very definitive in the claims that very definitive in the claims that very definitive in the claims that you're making and they need to be you're making and they need to be you're making and they need to be articulated with great confidence. And articulated with great confidence. And articulated with great confidence. And the less room you leave for nuance or the less room you leave for nuance or the less room you leave for nuance or any kind of uh defense or retort, the any kind of uh defense or retort, the any kind of uh defense or retort, the better positioned you are to be an better positioned you are to be an better positioned you are to be an advocate, like the tip of the spear for advocate, like the tip of the spear for advocate, like the tip of the spear for this movement. So with that incentive this movement. So with that incentive this movement. So with that incentive structure, of course, we're seeing and structure, of course, we're seeing and structure, of course, we're seeing and we see it writ large in every category, we see it writ large in every category, we see it writ large in every category, not just nutrition. People who are not just nutrition. People who are not just nutrition. People who are making very bold claims about whatever making very bold claims about whatever making very bold claims about whatever it is with a great degree of confidence. it is with a great degree of confidence. it is with a great degree of confidence. And there's something about that that And there's something about that that And there's something about that that appeals to our amygdala, like our lizard appeals to our amygdala, like our lizard appeals to our amygdala, like our lizard brain likes that. We want brain likes that. We want brain likes that. We want complicated, nuanced, messy ideas to be complicated, nuanced, messy ideas to be complicated, nuanced, messy ideas to be reduced down to something that we can reduced down to something that we can reduced down to something that we can understand, that we're going to understand, that we're going to understand, that we're going to remember, and that we can put into remember, and that we can put into remember, and that we can put into practice. It makes our life simpler. It practice. It makes our life simpler. It practice. It makes our life simpler. It eradicates all the uncertainty, and it eradicates all the uncertainty, and it eradicates all the uncertainty, and it makes us feel like we have agency and makes us feel like we have agency and makes us feel like we have agency and control over our lives. control over our lives. control over our lives. >> Yeah, we're we're conflating the >> Yeah, we're we're conflating the >> Yeah, we're we're conflating the absolute language with competence in absolute language with competence in absolute language with competence in that in that respect. But the job of a that in that respect. But the job of a that in that respect. But the job of a scientist is to convey the degree of scientist is to convey the degree of scientist is to convey the degree of certainty and uncertainty. And right certainty and uncertainty. And right certainty and uncertainty. And right >> everything has a degree of greyness. >> everything has a degree of greyness. >> everything has a degree of greyness. >> You know a good scientist when you ask >> You know a good scientist when you ask >> You know a good scientist when you ask them a question and they say well it's them a question and they say well it's them a question and they say well it's complicated or it depends or I need the complicated or it depends or I need the complicated or it depends or I need the context. context. context. What people like is somebody who says What people like is somebody who says What people like is somebody who says let me tell you what what you need to let me tell you what what you need to let me tell you what what you need to do. Here's all you need to know. Do do. Here's all you need to know. Do do. Here's all you need to know. Do this. it'll all take care of it and this. it'll all take care of it and this. it'll all take care of it and everything is going to be fantastic. Um, everything is going to be fantastic. Um, everything is going to be fantastic. Um, and you, you know, in your advocacy and and you, you know, in your advocacy and and you, you know, in your advocacy and in the proof podcast, like you have in the proof podcast, like you have in the proof podcast, like you have these incredibly um, sophisticated these incredibly um, sophisticated these incredibly um, sophisticated scientists who are like in the trenches scientists who are like in the trenches scientists who are like in the trenches doing all the research. They're deep doing all the research. They're deep doing all the research. They're deep into the data and every time they're into the data and every time they're into the data and every time they're like, "Well, it's complicated. If it's like, "Well, it's complicated. If it's like, "Well, it's complicated. If it's this, it's this. But sometimes it's this this, it's this. But sometimes it's this this, it's this. But sometimes it's this and we're not really sure about this." and we're not really sure about this." and we're not really sure about this." And people don't like that. But that's And people don't like that. But that's And people don't like that. But that's science and that's reality. science and that's reality. science and that's reality. >> Yeah. And I mean, you're right. It's >> Yeah. And I mean, you're right. It's >> Yeah. And I mean, you're right. It's it's it's carved me out of niche in the it's it's carved me out of niche in the it's it's carved me out of niche in the podcast world, but if you look at my podcast world, but if you look at my podcast world, but if you look at my >> But there's trust. >> But there's trust. >> But there's trust. >> If you look at my listener ship, though, >> If you look at my listener ship, though, >> If you look at my listener ship, though, like if we're being completely candid, like if we're being completely candid, like if we're being completely candid, it's pretty small compared to a lot of it's pretty small compared to a lot of it's pretty small compared to a lot of the health and wellness shows that we the health and wellness shows that we the health and wellness shows that we know. And know. And know. And >> but if you just made YouTube videos >> but if you just made YouTube videos >> but if you just made YouTube videos where you were in your kitchen and where you were in your kitchen and where you were in your kitchen and you're like, "Here's what you need to you're like, "Here's what you need to you're like, "Here's what you need to eat. If you eat this, you're never going eat. If you eat this, you're never going eat. If you eat this, you're never going to have to worry about your inflammation to have to worry about your inflammation to have to worry about your inflammation or, you know, whatever it is." is like or, you know, whatever it is." is like or, you know, whatever it is." is like just making these claims with great just making these claims with great just making these claims with great confidence. confidence. confidence. >> Like you could grow a big channel around >> Like you could grow a big channel around >> Like you could grow a big channel around that, but that, but that, but >> that's not being honest. That's not what >> that's not being honest. That's not what >> that's not being honest. That's not what you do. And what you're doing is a you do. And what you're doing is a you do. And what you're doing is a service because you're giving people a service because you're giving people a service because you're giving people a way of understanding the science and an way of understanding the science and an way of understanding the science and an appreciation for how challenging these appreciation for how challenging these appreciation for how challenging these things are. And that should engender things are. And that should engender things are. And that should engender trust in the scientific process. Like trust in the scientific process. Like trust in the scientific process. Like these things are complicated. These these things are complicated. These these things are complicated. These people have devoted their entire lives people have devoted their entire lives people have devoted their entire lives trying to understand this. this is what trying to understand this. this is what trying to understand this. this is what we know. Here's what um is repeatable in we know. Here's what um is repeatable in we know. Here's what um is repeatable in these experiments. And so we have a these experiments. And so we have a these experiments. And so we have a higher degree of confidence that this is higher degree of confidence that this is higher degree of confidence that this is true and these are the things that we're true and these are the things that we're true and these are the things that we're not so sure of. not so sure of. not so sure of. >> Right. [laughter] Let me throw back to >> Right. [laughter] Let me throw back to >> Right. [laughter] Let me throw back to you. I'll try and I'll try and let me you. I'll try and I'll try and let me you. I'll try and I'll try and let me try and distill my philosophy in try and distill my philosophy in try and distill my philosophy in nutrition into something that's packaged nutrition into something that's packaged nutrition into something that's packaged up because I think we can have the the up because I think we can have the the up because I think we can have the the nuance and the context conversations, nuance and the context conversations, nuance and the context conversations, but we also need to deliver something but we also need to deliver something but we also need to deliver something that people can grab a hold of. that people can grab a hold of. that people can grab a hold of. And I don't think this is that And I don't think this is that And I don't think this is that complicated even though it respects the complicated even though it respects the complicated even though it respects the nuance. nuance. nuance. Choose a plant predominant diet. Choose a plant predominant diet. Choose a plant predominant diet. Mediterranean, pescatarian, Mediterranean, pescatarian, Mediterranean, pescatarian, vegetarian, vegan. Base it on minimally vegetarian, vegan. Base it on minimally vegetarian, vegan. Base it on minimally processed foods. processed foods. processed foods. Try not to eat a lot of ultrarocessed Try not to eat a lot of ultrarocessed Try not to eat a lot of ultrarocessed packaged foods. packaged foods. packaged foods. Low carb, moder, high carb, whatever Low carb, moder, high carb, whatever Low carb, moder, high carb, whatever leaves you feeling best. leaves you feeling best. leaves you feeling best. If you're also interested in the If you're also interested in the If you're also interested in the environmental impact of your diet and environmental impact of your diet and environmental impact of your diet and animal welfare, try to adopt that animal welfare, try to adopt that animal welfare, try to adopt that dietary pattern in a way that is as dietary pattern in a way that is as dietary pattern in a way that is as plant exclusive as possible. Or you plant exclusive as possible. Or you plant exclusive as possible. Or you could reduce that one layer down further could reduce that one layer down further could reduce that one layer down further to what Michael Pollen says, which is to what Michael Pollen says, which is to what Michael Pollen says, which is eat real food, not too much, mostly eat real food, not too much, mostly eat real food, not too much, mostly plants. There we go. Or eat real food, plants. There we go. Or eat real food, plants. There we go. Or eat real food, mostly plants, not too much or something mostly plants, not too much or something mostly plants, not too much or something like that. You know what I mean? like that. You know what I mean? like that. You know what I mean? >> That kind of encapsulates it. if if if >> That kind of encapsulates it. if if if >> That kind of encapsulates it. if if if you need that that like really reduced you need that that like really reduced you need that that like really reduced uh down to its essence message. uh down to its essence message. uh down to its essence message. >> Totally. >> Totally. >> Totally. >> Um and within that, like you're saying, >> Um and within that, like you're saying, >> Um and within that, like you're saying, mostly they're not they're still not mostly they're not they're still not mostly they're not they're still not absolutes, you know what I mean? Um so absolutes, you know what I mean? Um so absolutes, you know what I mean? Um so again, just to kind of recap this again, just to kind of recap this again, just to kind of recap this fundamental problem. Um let's try to be fundamental problem. Um let's try to be fundamental problem. Um let's try to be a little bit more honest, a little more a little bit more honest, a little more a little bit more honest, a little more transparent. I think the fear is like, transparent. I think the fear is like, transparent. I think the fear is like, oh, if we're opening the door, to your oh, if we're opening the door, to your oh, if we're opening the door, to your point, um, that's going to leave people point, um, that's going to leave people point, um, that's going to leave people like an exit and they're going to take like an exit and they're going to take like an exit and they're going to take that exit. But I think if you're that exit. But I think if you're that exit. But I think if you're actually honest about these things and actually honest about these things and actually honest about these things and you treat people, your audience with you treat people, your audience with you treat people, your audience with respect and um and with the confidence respect and um and with the confidence respect and um and with the confidence that they can synthesize this that they can synthesize this that they can synthesize this information, uh you're building that information, uh you're building that information, uh you're building that trust and you're creating a situation in trust and you're creating a situation in trust and you're creating a situation in which they're more likely to explore which they're more likely to explore which they're more likely to explore this because they feel like you're an this because they feel like you're an this because they feel like you're an honest broker. honest broker. honest broker. >> Couldn't agree more. >> Couldn't agree more. >> Couldn't agree more. >> Yeah. In the hierarchy of all of this, >> Yeah. In the hierarchy of all of this, >> Yeah. In the hierarchy of all of this, there was the discourse around there was the discourse around there was the discourse around supplementation and protein. A lot of uh supplementation and protein. A lot of uh supplementation and protein. A lot of uh hand ringing over not worrying about hand ringing over not worrying about hand ringing over not worrying about protein. You don't have to worry about protein. You don't have to worry about protein. You don't have to worry about it. Um protein has never been uh it. Um protein has never been uh it. Um protein has never been uh something that I've had to be too something that I've had to be too something that I've had to be too concerned about. And maybe I'm just like concerned about. And maybe I'm just like concerned about. And maybe I'm just like some kind of hyper adopter or some some kind of hyper adopter or some some kind of hyper adopter or some adapter or something like that. like I adapter or something like that. like I adapter or something like that. like I can work out hard and it hasn't can work out hard and it hasn't can work out hard and it hasn't historically been an issue for me where historically been an issue for me where historically been an issue for me where I have to be hypervigilant about my I have to be hypervigilant about my I have to be hypervigilant about my protein intake, but I've come to protein intake, but I've come to protein intake, but I've come to appreciate that this is not the case for appreciate that this is not the case for appreciate that this is not the case for everybody. And I think a lot of the everybody. And I think a lot of the everybody. And I think a lot of the messaging messaging messaging um at that time was that protein is just um at that time was that protein is just um at that time was that protein is just something you don't really have to worry something you don't really have to worry something you don't really have to worry about. If you're just grazing on plants, about. If you're just grazing on plants, about. If you're just grazing on plants, it will take care of itself. it will take care of itself. it will take care of itself. >> Yeah. The message >> Yeah. The message >> Yeah. The message really was like everything takes care of really was like everything takes care of really was like everything takes care of itself other than B12. You know, even itself other than B12. You know, even itself other than B12. You know, even some people may may have been saying some people may may have been saying some people may may have been saying that you didn't need to supplement that you didn't need to supplement that you didn't need to supplement vitamin B12. But the reality is, let's vitamin B12. But the reality is, let's vitamin B12. But the reality is, let's just say you start with like a just say you start with like a just say you start with like a Mediterranean diet, which arguably is in Mediterranean diet, which arguably is in Mediterranean diet, which arguably is in a lot of the dietary guidelines and a lot of the dietary guidelines and a lot of the dietary guidelines and promoted by a lot of dietitians globally promoted by a lot of dietitians globally promoted by a lot of dietitians globally because it's a healthpromoting dietary because it's a healthpromoting dietary because it's a healthpromoting dietary pattern that also reduces the risk of pattern that also reduces the risk of pattern that also reduces the risk of nutrient shortfalls. But if you take nutrient shortfalls. But if you take nutrient shortfalls. But if you take that pattern and you say, "Okay, now that pattern and you say, "Okay, now that pattern and you say, "Okay, now we're going to eliminate sources of of we're going to eliminate sources of of we're going to eliminate sources of of animal protein." There are some things animal protein." There are some things animal protein." There are some things that you need to be aware of. And that you need to be aware of. And that you need to be aware of. And depending on what you swap the fish and depending on what you swap the fish and depending on what you swap the fish and the chicken and the meat for, that will the chicken and the meat for, that will the chicken and the meat for, that will affect whether you're getting enough affect whether you're getting enough affect whether you're getting enough protein and micronutrients in protein and micronutrients in protein and micronutrients in particular, like omega-3s and iodine and particular, like omega-3s and iodine and particular, like omega-3s and iodine and vitamin B12 and zinc. And so I I think vitamin B12 and zinc. And so I I think vitamin B12 and zinc. And so I I think the message that protein just takes care the message that protein just takes care the message that protein just takes care of itself was oversimplified. I think of itself was oversimplified. I think of itself was oversimplified. I think for some people who work out a lot and for some people who work out a lot and for some people who work out a lot and are eating a lot of calories are eating a lot of calories are eating a lot of calories and they're swapping the the and they're swapping the the and they're swapping the the sources of animal protein for legumes, sources of animal protein for legumes, sources of animal protein for legumes, then yeah, probably end up getting then yeah, probably end up getting then yeah, probably end up getting enough protein. But if you're removing enough protein. But if you're removing enough protein. But if you're removing these animal foods and instead just these animal foods and instead just these animal foods and instead just eating fruit and vegetables, eating fruit and vegetables, eating fruit and vegetables, there is a reality of underconuming there is a reality of underconuming there is a reality of underconuming protein. protein. protein. >> So yes, you need to be sensible and eat >> So yes, you need to be sensible and eat >> So yes, you need to be sensible and eat tofu and tempeh and edamame and tofu and tempeh and edamame and tofu and tempeh and edamame and chickpeas and beans and lentils and etc. chickpeas and beans and lentils and etc. chickpeas and beans and lentils and etc. That uh group of plant foods that are That uh group of plant foods that are That uh group of plant foods that are higher in protein are going to be better higher in protein are going to be better higher in protein are going to be better swaps when you take the animal protein swaps when you take the animal protein swaps when you take the animal protein out than than eating, you know, more out than than eating, you know, more out than than eating, you know, more fruit, for example. fruit, for example. fruit, for example. >> Mhm. And at the same time, I think there >> Mhm. And at the same time, I think there >> Mhm. And at the same time, I think there are a range of micronutrients, many that are a range of micronutrients, many that are a range of micronutrients, many that I just listed off, plus omega-3s that I just listed off, plus omega-3s that I just listed off, plus omega-3s that most people eating a plant exclusive most people eating a plant exclusive most people eating a plant exclusive diet will benefit from supplementing diet will benefit from supplementing diet will benefit from supplementing with a multivitamin. Now, it's not with a multivitamin. Now, it's not with a multivitamin. Now, it's not everyone, cuz some people follow their everyone, cuz some people follow their everyone, cuz some people follow their diet very closely and are measuring out diet very closely and are measuring out diet very closely and are measuring out the amount of chia seeds and flax seeds the amount of chia seeds and flax seeds the amount of chia seeds and flax seeds that they're having and are having that they're having and are having that they're having and are having different types of seaweed for iodine. different types of seaweed for iodine. different types of seaweed for iodine. And sure, those people are are And sure, those people are are And sure, those people are are strategically getting some of those strategically getting some of those strategically getting some of those micronutrients like plant-based omega-3s micronutrients like plant-based omega-3s micronutrients like plant-based omega-3s and iodine, and they may not need to and iodine, and they may not need to and iodine, and they may not need to supplement with as much. But for the supplement with as much. But for the supplement with as much. But for the average person who is super busy with average person who is super busy with average person who is super busy with work and kids and all the things, when work and kids and all the things, when work and kids and all the things, when you just shift to a plant-based diet, you just shift to a plant-based diet, you just shift to a plant-based diet, particularly if it's overnight, a particularly if it's overnight, a particularly if it's overnight, a multivitamin is a great insurance policy multivitamin is a great insurance policy multivitamin is a great insurance policy to make sure that your body has an to make sure that your body has an to make sure that your body has an optimal status of those micronutrients, optimal status of those micronutrients, optimal status of those micronutrients, which are really important and are going which are really important and are going which are really important and are going to affect how someone feels and are to affect how someone feels and are to affect how someone feels and are going to affect someone's ability to going to affect someone's ability to going to affect someone's ability to feel good and want to sustain that diet feel good and want to sustain that diet feel good and want to sustain that diet past two months, three months, a year, past two months, three months, a year, past two months, three months, a year, you know, into, you know, you've been you know, into, you know, you've been you know, into, you know, you've been following this diet now for what, 15 following this diet now for what, 15 following this diet now for what, 15 years or so. years or so. years or so. >> Mhm. Yeah. And if you're eating >> Mhm. Yeah. And if you're eating >> Mhm. Yeah. And if you're eating uh plant-based burgers and plant-based uh plant-based burgers and plant-based uh plant-based burgers and plant-based chicken nuggets and plant-based lasagna chicken nuggets and plant-based lasagna chicken nuggets and plant-based lasagna with like, you know, some like processed with like, you know, some like processed with like, you know, some like processed dairy alternative cheese and like all dairy alternative cheese and like all dairy alternative cheese and like all that kind of stuff and thinking, well, that kind of stuff and thinking, well, that kind of stuff and thinking, well, like I'm eating a plant-based diet. Like like I'm eating a plant-based diet. Like like I'm eating a plant-based diet. Like I'm eating a healthier diet. Like this I'm eating a healthier diet. Like this I'm eating a healthier diet. Like this is not a healthier diet. And I think we is not a healthier diet. And I think we is not a healthier diet. And I think we would have benefited from a little more would have benefited from a little more would have benefited from a little more caution in the communication around not caution in the communication around not caution in the communication around not confusing that with what you're talking confusing that with what you're talking confusing that with what you're talking about, which is eating this plant about, which is eating this plant about, which is eating this plant predominant diet with these plant foods predominant diet with these plant foods predominant diet with these plant foods in great diversity close to their in great diversity close to their in great diversity close to their natural state. natural state. natural state. I think again the a lot of the the I think again the a lot of the the I think again the a lot of the the educators in the space because they were educators in the space because they were educators in the space because they were coming from the ethical kind of side of coming from the ethical kind of side of coming from the ethical kind of side of this conversation. this conversation. this conversation. The The The >> the assumption was that if you're >> the assumption was that if you're >> the assumption was that if you're telling people they need to be aware of telling people they need to be aware of telling people they need to be aware of protein and that protein's important, protein and that protein's important, protein and that protein's important, they're going to keep eating the animal they're going to keep eating the animal they're going to keep eating the animal foods because society very much sees foods because society very much sees foods because society very much sees the, you know, animal foods as as the, you know, animal foods as as the, you know, animal foods as as protein. And you know, we've been having protein. And you know, we've been having protein. And you know, we've been having the conversation around do plants the conversation around do plants the conversation around do plants contain protein and is is it incomplete contain protein and is is it incomplete contain protein and is is it incomplete for for decades now at this point. So, for for decades now at this point. So, for for decades now at this point. So, >> and this coincided with an increase in >> and this coincided with an increase in >> and this coincided with an increase in people's obsession with protein um people's obsession with protein um people's obsession with protein um motivated uh in no small part by the motivated uh in no small part by the motivated uh in no small part by the meat and dairy lobbies who invested a meat and dairy lobbies who invested a meat and dairy lobbies who invested a lot of money in making people concerned lot of money in making people concerned lot of money in making people concerned about this at the same time. And I have about this at the same time. And I have about this at the same time. And I have mixed feelings about that because I mean mixed feelings about that because I mean mixed feelings about that because I mean we've spoken about this ad nauseium on we've spoken about this ad nauseium on we've spoken about this ad nauseium on this show, but protein is important and this show, but protein is important and this show, but protein is important and psychopenia and loss of muscle is a real psychopenia and loss of muscle is a real psychopenia and loss of muscle is a real problem. It's affecting metabolic problem. It's affecting metabolic problem. It's affecting metabolic health. It's affecting physical health. It's affecting physical health. It's affecting physical independence. But if you look at what's independence. But if you look at what's independence. But if you look at what's driving that in in America, it's not a driving that in in America, it's not a driving that in in America, it's not a lack of protein. It's a sedentary lack of protein. It's a sedentary lack of protein. It's a sedentary lifestyle. lifestyle. lifestyle. >> Mhm. >> Mhm. >> Mhm. >> And we don't need to unpack that cuz >> And we don't need to unpack that cuz >> And we don't need to unpack that cuz we've done it before. and gone through we've done it before. and gone through we've done it before. and gone through all of the clinical trials, but the the all of the clinical trials, but the the all of the clinical trials, but the the stimulus isn't there from the resistance stimulus isn't there from the resistance stimulus isn't there from the resistance training for most people. Um, which is training for most people. Um, which is training for most people. Um, which is what's required to build and maintain what's required to build and maintain what's required to build and maintain muscle mass. And the average person has muscle mass. And the average person has muscle mass. And the average person has more than enough protein to do that. more than enough protein to do that. more than enough protein to do that. >> Mhm. The problem isn't the protein. The >> Mhm. The problem isn't the protein. The >> Mhm. The problem isn't the protein. The problem is your lack of moving your problem is your lack of moving your problem is your lack of moving your body. But over the last say 3 years with body. But over the last say 3 years with body. But over the last say 3 years with with this kind of protein obsession that with this kind of protein obsession that with this kind of protein obsession that you're you're talking about, a lot of you're you're talking about, a lot of you're you're talking about, a lot of that message has been a doubling down on that message has been a doubling down on that message has been a doubling down on the importance of animal protein. the importance of animal protein. the importance of animal protein. >> And I've pushed back on that a lot >> And I've pushed back on that a lot >> And I've pushed back on that a lot because I think it is a distraction. because I think it is a distraction. because I think it is a distraction. It's a distraction from if if someone It's a distraction from if if someone It's a distraction from if if someone really wants to reduce their risk of really wants to reduce their risk of really wants to reduce their risk of psychopenia and have better metabolic psychopenia and have better metabolic psychopenia and have better metabolic health, they they need to start moving health, they they need to start moving health, they they need to start moving their body against resistance. their body against resistance. their body against resistance. They don't need to be focusing on eating They don't need to be focusing on eating They don't need to be focusing on eating more animal protein because they're more animal protein because they're more animal protein because they're already getting enough protein. already getting enough protein. already getting enough protein. >> Yeah, >> Yeah, >> Yeah, >> there's a pretty good chance you've >> there's a pretty good chance you've >> there's a pretty good chance you've cottoned on to this channel and pulled cottoned on to this channel and pulled cottoned on to this channel and pulled up this podcast because you've [music] up this podcast because you've [music] up this podcast because you've [music] got goals. You aspire to be better, to got goals. You aspire to be better, to got goals. You aspire to be better, to eat better, to have more energy, to be eat better, to have more energy, to be eat better, to have more energy, to be more consistent. All of this is great, more consistent. All of this is great, more consistent. All of this is great, but you got to have an actual plan or but you got to have an actual plan or but you got to have an actual plan or all your good intentions will soon tend all your good intentions will soon tend all your good intentions will soon tend [music] to drift. And that is what I [music] to drift. And that is what I [music] to drift. And that is what I appreciate about Prolon. It's a five-day appreciate about Prolon. It's a five-day appreciate about Prolon. It's a five-day plant-based nutrition program designed plant-based nutrition program designed plant-based nutrition program designed to give you many of the benefits of to give you many of the benefits of to give you many of the benefits of fasting, but you get to keep eating. It fasting, but you get to keep eating. It fasting, but you get to keep eating. It sounds nuts, but it's true. [music] sounds nuts, but it's true. [music] sounds nuts, but it's true. 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Nobody uh enjoys being in the company of somebody who's carrying company of somebody who's carrying company of somebody who's carrying themselves with an air of moral themselves with an air of moral themselves with an air of moral superiority. And I think the movement superiority. And I think the movement superiority. And I think the movement has suffered from the fact that so many has suffered from the fact that so many has suffered from the fact that so many people who are carrying this message are people who are carrying this message are people who are carrying this message are doing it in an off-putting way that doing it in an off-putting way that doing it in an off-putting way that makes people turned off and not want to makes people turned off and not want to makes people turned off and not want to have anything to do with this. have anything to do with this. have anything to do with this. >> In some way, the labels create that, >> In some way, the labels create that, >> In some way, the labels create that, don't they? They just create a wall and don't they? They just create a wall and don't they? They just create a wall and a division. Mhm. We all want our a division. Mhm. We all want our a division. Mhm. We all want our community, you know, we want to have an community, you know, we want to have an community, you know, we want to have an identity or an association with some identity or an association with some identity or an association with some kind of um group that makes us feel like kind of um group that makes us feel like kind of um group that makes us feel like our life has meaning. And I think there our life has meaning. And I think there our life has meaning. And I think there is I would say at the outset something is I would say at the outset something is I would say at the outset something really beautiful about the ardent animal really beautiful about the ardent animal really beautiful about the ardent animal activists sensitivity. I think some activists sensitivity. I think some activists sensitivity. I think some people are born with a higher degree of people are born with a higher degree of people are born with a higher degree of sensitivity and they just walk the sensitivity and they just walk the sensitivity and they just walk the planet like just a gasast that this planet like just a gasast that this planet like just a gasast that this reality is going on all around us and reality is going on all around us and reality is going on all around us and nobody is talking about it. Like why nobody is talking about it. Like why nobody is talking about it. Like why aren't we doing anything about the fact aren't we doing anything about the fact aren't we doing anything about the fact that billions of these animals are being that billions of these animals are being that billions of these animals are being slaughtered and treated so horribly and slaughtered and treated so horribly and slaughtered and treated so horribly and [snorts] it's so um uncomfortable for [snorts] it's so um uncomfortable for [snorts] it's so um uncomfortable for them that they feel they have no choice them that they feel they have no choice them that they feel they have no choice but to talk about it. and and there the but to talk about it. and and there the but to talk about it. and and there the fact that like no one else is seeing it fact that like no one else is seeing it fact that like no one else is seeing it the way that they see it or feeling it the way that they see it or feeling it the way that they see it or feeling it as deeply as they feel it is is um as deeply as they feel it is is um as deeply as they feel it is is um frustrating for them, you know. And so frustrating for them, you know. And so frustrating for them, you know. And so when they do their best to communicate when they do their best to communicate when they do their best to communicate it and that message is not received in it and that message is not received in it and that message is not received in the way that they would like, it creates the way that they would like, it creates the way that they would like, it creates uh even more like anger and resentment uh even more like anger and resentment uh even more like anger and resentment and it becomes this vicious cycle. But and it becomes this vicious cycle. But and it becomes this vicious cycle. But the fact of the matter is this is not an the fact of the matter is this is not an the fact of the matter is this is not an effective uh uh communication strategy effective uh uh communication strategy effective uh uh communication strategy or campaign strategy. You're not going or campaign strategy. You're not going or campaign strategy. You're not going to recruit people into your cause by to recruit people into your cause by to recruit people into your cause by taking their inventory and telling them taking their inventory and telling them taking their inventory and telling them that they're living their life wrong. that they're living their life wrong. that they're living their life wrong. And so the movement could use a little And so the movement could use a little And so the movement could use a little um training in human psychology and um training in human psychology and um training in human psychology and rhetoric if if [snorts] it wants to rhetoric if if [snorts] it wants to rhetoric if if [snorts] it wants to survive and thrive. In other words, if survive and thrive. In other words, if survive and thrive. In other words, if you want people to be interested in what you want people to be interested in what you want people to be interested in what you're interested in, then you have to you're interested in, then you have to you're interested in, then you have to show an interest in them and stop show an interest in them and stop show an interest in them and stop judging them and pitch a big tent and judging them and pitch a big tent and judging them and pitch a big tent and put out a very big welcome mat and allow put out a very big welcome mat and allow put out a very big welcome mat and allow people in and model it as aspirational people in and model it as aspirational people in and model it as aspirational rather than uh some kind of martyrdom. rather than uh some kind of martyrdom. rather than uh some kind of martyrdom. Yeah, I mean this is this is not my Yeah, I mean this is this is not my Yeah, I mean this is this is not my primary area of expertise, but I would primary area of expertise, but I would primary area of expertise, but I would say just from a human perspective, we say just from a human perspective, we say just from a human perspective, we all want to feel understood and heard all want to feel understood and heard all want to feel understood and heard and we we don't want to feel as though and we we don't want to feel as though and we we don't want to feel as though we're being lectured to, we're being lectured to, we're being lectured to, >> right? >> right? >> right? >> Or be made to feel that we're wrong and >> Or be made to feel that we're wrong and >> Or be made to feel that we're wrong and and you're right. Um and so the and you're right. Um and so the and you're right. Um and so the interesting thing is though that you interesting thing is though that you interesting thing is though that you said that it's ineffective. I would say said that it's ineffective. I would say said that it's ineffective. I would say I would agree with you. I think that I would agree with you. I think that I would agree with you. I think that it is it is ineffective at scale it is it is ineffective at scale it is it is ineffective at scale but it's it is effective for a minority. but it's it is effective for a minority. but it's it is effective for a minority. So everyone has the the kind of example So everyone has the the kind of example So everyone has the the kind of example of where that approach that more staunch of where that approach that more staunch of where that approach that more staunch approach it, you know, quote unquote has approach it, you know, quote unquote has approach it, you know, quote unquote has converted some people. converted some people. converted some people. >> Mhm. >> Mhm. >> Mhm. >> For whatever reason. But in the net, how >> For whatever reason. But in the net, how >> For whatever reason. But in the net, how many people is it alienating for the one many people is it alienating for the one many people is it alienating for the one person that it recruits? person that it recruits? person that it recruits? >> A lot of people. >> A lot of people. >> A lot of people. >> I mean, sanctimony and shaming is not an >> I mean, sanctimony and shaming is not an >> I mean, sanctimony and shaming is not an effective rhetorical strategy. effective rhetorical strategy. effective rhetorical strategy. >> No. So, what would your what would your >> No. So, what would your what would your >> No. So, what would your what would your suggestion be for the person who is suggestion be for the person who is suggestion be for the person who is currently uh finding themselves in that currently uh finding themselves in that currently uh finding themselves in that place that you're talking about where place that you're talking about where place that you're talking about where they just feel so frustrated that people they just feel so frustrated that people they just feel so frustrated that people are going about their life as if this is are going about their life as if this is are going about their life as if this is not even happening? not even happening? not even happening? um and are completely disconnected from um and are completely disconnected from um and are completely disconnected from the food they're eating and where it's the food they're eating and where it's the food they're eating and where it's coming from. What would your advice be coming from. What would your advice be coming from. What would your advice be for more effective communication? for more effective communication? for more effective communication? >> Well, the first thing that I would say >> Well, the first thing that I would say >> Well, the first thing that I would say is I would couch what I just said by is I would couch what I just said by is I would couch what I just said by saying that we need all types of saying that we need all types of saying that we need all types of advocacy. And there's something about advocacy. And there's something about advocacy. And there's something about the very ardent like revolutionary the very ardent like revolutionary the very ardent like revolutionary hardcore hardcore hardcore rights activist that is important and rights activist that is important and rights activist that is important and essential in in the democratic process essential in in the democratic process essential in in the democratic process because we need people out there who are because we need people out there who are because we need people out there who are willing to show us where the line is and willing to show us where the line is and willing to show us where the line is and where we've crossed it. I think they where we've crossed it. I think they where we've crossed it. I think they play a vital role. So I'm not saying we play a vital role. So I'm not saying we play a vital role. So I'm not saying we shouldn't have those people or nobody shouldn't have those people or nobody shouldn't have those people or nobody should be that. And I think if you're should be that. And I think if you're should be that. And I think if you're wired in a certain way and that's the wired in a certain way and that's the wired in a certain way and that's the way you feel most passionate about way you feel most passionate about way you feel most passionate about carrying your message, then you should carrying your message, then you should carrying your message, then you should be that. I'm just saying in the in the be that. I'm just saying in the in the be that. I'm just saying in the in the whole to your point like this is not whole to your point like this is not whole to your point like this is not winning hearts and minds. what you're winning hearts and minds. what you're winning hearts and minds. what you're doing is sounding an alarm and we need doing is sounding an alarm and we need doing is sounding an alarm and we need to hear that alarm and we can dismiss it to hear that alarm and we can dismiss it to hear that alarm and we can dismiss it or disagree with it but those people or disagree with it but those people or disagree with it but those people whether it's you know whatever whatever whether it's you know whatever whatever whether it's you know whatever whatever uh wrong they're trying to write this is uh wrong they're trying to write this is uh wrong they're trying to write this is not just with respect to animal rights not just with respect to animal rights not just with respect to animal rights activists with you know with anything activists with you know with anything activists with you know with anything that is going on out there I think these that is going on out there I think these that is going on out there I think these people are vital for a healthy society people are vital for a healthy society people are vital for a healthy society so I'm not I'm not disparaging them or so I'm not I'm not disparaging them or so I'm not I'm not disparaging them or dismissing them and certain people are dismissing them and certain people are dismissing them and certain people are wired for that and if you're wired for wired for that and if you're wired for wired for that and if you're wired for that then you should go do that I'm just that then you should go do that I'm just that then you should go do that I'm just saying that it's not a great campaign saying that it's not a great campaign saying that it's not a great campaign strategy for winning hearts and minds. strategy for winning hearts and minds. strategy for winning hearts and minds. [snorts] And if you're thinking about [snorts] And if you're thinking about [snorts] And if you're thinking about how you want to carry the message or how you want to carry the message or how you want to carry the message or what feels right to you, I mean, I my what feels right to you, I mean, I my what feels right to you, I mean, I my way, which suits me and my personality, way, which suits me and my personality, way, which suits me and my personality, is to not get into judging people or is to not get into judging people or is to not get into judging people or being alarmist, but to rather model it being alarmist, but to rather model it being alarmist, but to rather model it as aspirational and make it appealing to as aspirational and make it appealing to as aspirational and make it appealing to people so they're attracted to it. Like people so they're attracted to it. Like people so they're attracted to it. Like there's a there's a phrase in AA which there's a there's a phrase in AA which there's a there's a phrase in AA which is attraction rather than promotion. is attraction rather than promotion. is attraction rather than promotion. like don't promote your idea. Make it like don't promote your idea. Make it like don't promote your idea. Make it attractive by modeling it in a in a attractive by modeling it in a in a attractive by modeling it in a in a certain way that makes people want to certain way that makes people want to certain way that makes people want to know more about it and they come to you know more about it and they come to you know more about it and they come to you and then you say, "Well, I'm not out and then you say, "Well, I'm not out and then you say, "Well, I'm not out there like trying to convert people, but there like trying to convert people, but there like trying to convert people, but if you're interested, I'll tell you all if you're interested, I'll tell you all if you're interested, I'll tell you all about it and this is how I do it and about it and this is how I do it and about it and this is how I do it and this is how I've been able to do these this is how I've been able to do these this is how I've been able to do these things and you could do it, too. And if things and you could do it, too. And if things and you could do it, too. And if you're interested, I'll help you do it." you're interested, I'll help you do it." you're interested, I'll help you do it." And people feel seen and heard. They And people feel seen and heard. They And people feel seen and heard. They feel respected. They don't feel like feel respected. They don't feel like feel respected. They don't feel like they're being um sold something. They they're being um sold something. They they're being um sold something. They feel like their curios curiosity is feel like their curios curiosity is feel like their curios curiosity is being is being honored and respected, I being is being honored and respected, I being is being honored and respected, I guess, is what I'm saying. And there's guess, is what I'm saying. And there's guess, is what I'm saying. And there's something to be said about how you leave something to be said about how you leave something to be said about how you leave someone feeling. So, someone feeling. So, someone feeling. So, you know, I I know that when someone you know, I I know that when someone you know, I I know that when someone leaves me feeling good and uplifted and leaves me feeling good and uplifted and leaves me feeling good and uplifted and the that's the energy that they're the that's the energy that they're the that's the energy that they're bringing to to our relationship, I want bringing to to our relationship, I want bringing to to our relationship, I want to spend more time with that person. to spend more time with that person. to spend more time with that person. [laughter] [laughter] [laughter] >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> I want to spend more time with that >> I want to spend more time with that >> I want to spend more time with that person. I want a bit more of what they person. I want a bit more of what they person. I want a bit more of what they have, you know? Whereas if someone have, you know? Whereas if someone have, you know? Whereas if someone >> that I'm relating to is frustrated and >> that I'm relating to is frustrated and >> that I'm relating to is frustrated and angry and and upset and bitter and angry and and upset and bitter and angry and and upset and bitter and leaving me feel shamed or or guilty of leaving me feel shamed or or guilty of leaving me feel shamed or or guilty of it makes sense like I I'm probably going it makes sense like I I'm probably going it makes sense like I I'm probably going to want to lessen my time around that to want to lessen my time around that to want to lessen my time around that person and probably not want to be part person and probably not want to be part person and probably not want to be part of the community or group that they're a of the community or group that they're a of the community or group that they're a part of. part of. part of. >> I think you can marry these two >> I think you can marry these two >> I think you can marry these two sensibilities. uh like being somebody sensibilities. uh like being somebody sensibilities. uh like being somebody who who has a very strong belief around who who has a very strong belief around who who has a very strong belief around an ethic and also is is is smart and an ethic and also is is is smart and an ethic and also is is is smart and sophisticated on how they communicate sophisticated on how they communicate sophisticated on how they communicate that message. And when I think about that message. And when I think about that message. And when I think about that, I think about what Billy Isish is that, I think about what Billy Isish is that, I think about what Billy Isish is doing. Like she kind of went viral when doing. Like she kind of went viral when doing. Like she kind of went viral when she said, "You can love animals and you she said, "You can love animals and you she said, "You can love animals and you can eat them, but you can't do both. I'm can eat them, but you can't do both. I'm can eat them, but you can't do both. I'm sorry." Like she's just very like clear. sorry." Like she's just very like clear. sorry." Like she's just very like clear. This is how I feel about this. and like This is how I feel about this. and like This is how I feel about this. and like you know people can be mad or whatever you know people can be mad or whatever you know people can be mad or whatever but that's my position. At the same time but that's my position. At the same time but that's my position. At the same time she uh and support and feed the she uh and support and feed the she uh and support and feed the organization that she has with her mom organization that she has with her mom organization that she has with her mom uh is feeding millions of people uh is feeding millions of people uh is feeding millions of people plant-based meals at some of the biggest plant-based meals at some of the biggest plant-based meals at some of the biggest concert venues in the world. Like every concert venues in the world. Like every concert venues in the world. Like every concert that she plays, they're making concert that she plays, they're making concert that she plays, they're making these foods available to people as as an these foods available to people as as an these foods available to people as as an offering. Like, hey, check it out. It offering. Like, hey, check it out. It offering. Like, hey, check it out. It tastes good. like we're not telling you tastes good. like we're not telling you tastes good. like we're not telling you you have to eat this going forward or you have to eat this going forward or you have to eat this going forward or you can't eat these other things. We're you can't eat these other things. We're you can't eat these other things. We're just feeding you. You know what I mean? just feeding you. You know what I mean? just feeding you. You know what I mean? Without without any kind of condition Without without any kind of condition Without without any kind of condition around it. And so the big the not just a around it. And so the big the not just a around it. And so the big the not just a big tent like the biggest tent, a big big tent like the biggest tent, a big big tent like the biggest tent, a big welcome mat while also like basically welcome mat while also like basically welcome mat while also like basically having a lot of clarity around like what having a lot of clarity around like what having a lot of clarity around like what you stand for. you stand for. you stand for. >> She's being unapologetic. >> She's being unapologetic. >> She's being unapologetic. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> In her truth. If you find yourself >> In her truth. If you find yourself >> In her truth. If you find yourself judging somebody else or attacking their judging somebody else or attacking their judging somebody else or attacking their point of view, maybe do a little bit of point of view, maybe do a little bit of point of view, maybe do a little bit of reflection. Like we're all flawed and reflection. Like we're all flawed and reflection. Like we're all flawed and nobody is going to live up to like nobody is going to live up to like nobody is going to live up to like whatever purity test you've set for them whatever purity test you've set for them whatever purity test you've set for them and nobody wants to take that test and nobody wants to take that test and nobody wants to take that test either. And people want to be to your either. And people want to be to your either. And people want to be to your point like around people that make them point like around people that make them point like around people that make them feel good. and you can make people feel feel good. and you can make people feel feel good. and you can make people feel good and seen and heard and honored good and seen and heard and honored good and seen and heard and honored while also like without thinking that while also like without thinking that while also like without thinking that you're transgressing your like moral you're transgressing your like moral you're transgressing your like moral point of view. Um, so I think it's just point of view. Um, so I think it's just point of view. Um, so I think it's just a matter of taking that sensitivity, a matter of taking that sensitivity, a matter of taking that sensitivity, that compassion that comes so easy for that compassion that comes so easy for that compassion that comes so easy for the animals and understanding that human the animals and understanding that human the animals and understanding that human beings are animals too. and maybe beings are animals too. and maybe beings are animals too. and maybe channeling that compassion towards the channeling that compassion towards the channeling that compassion towards the person who disagrees with you. person who disagrees with you. person who disagrees with you. And then finally, I would say let's stop And then finally, I would say let's stop And then finally, I would say let's stop with the vegan onvegan crime. You know, with the vegan onvegan crime. You know, with the vegan onvegan crime. You know, like the vegans who are attacking other like the vegans who are attacking other like the vegans who are attacking other vegans because they're not as vegan as vegans because they're not as vegan as vegans because they're not as vegan as they are or not living up to the, you they are or not living up to the, you they are or not living up to the, you know, like absolutely impossible to live know, like absolutely impossible to live know, like absolutely impossible to live up to vegan purity test. It's not up to vegan purity test. It's not up to vegan purity test. It's not helpful to see people within the helpful to see people within the helpful to see people within the movement attacking each other for not movement attacking each other for not movement attacking each other for not doing it the way that they think it doing it the way that they think it doing it the way that they think it should be done. should be done. should be done. [snorts] [snorts] [snorts] >> Yeah. There's a lot of people that are >> Yeah. There's a lot of people that are >> Yeah. There's a lot of people that are ostracized within the community. ostracized within the community. ostracized within the community. >> Yeah. So outsiders see that and then >> Yeah. So outsiders see that and then >> Yeah. So outsiders see that and then they like, well, these people can't even they like, well, these people can't even they like, well, these people can't even like they're not even like on the same like they're not even like on the same like they're not even like on the same page and they want me to get on their page and they want me to get on their page and they want me to get on their page or that page when they're still page or that page when they're still page or that page when they're still trying to sort it out amongst trying to sort it out amongst trying to sort it out amongst themselves. That is not an effective um themselves. That is not an effective um themselves. That is not an effective um message of attraction. If you got 80% of message of attraction. If you got 80% of message of attraction. If you got 80% of the population to do meatless Mondays, the population to do meatless Mondays, the population to do meatless Mondays, that's way better than convincing uh 1% that's way better than convincing uh 1% that's way better than convincing uh 1% of the population to go 100% vegan. of the population to go 100% vegan. of the population to go 100% vegan. >> You know what I mean? So, like >> You know what I mean? So, like >> You know what I mean? So, like understand the value proposition at play understand the value proposition at play understand the value proposition at play and know that when you've got somebody and know that when you've got somebody and know that when you've got somebody who is interested in what you're saying, who is interested in what you're saying, who is interested in what you're saying, that person potentially represents uh that person potentially represents uh that person potentially represents uh sparing animals their lives and don't, sparing animals their lives and don't, sparing animals their lives and don't, you know, alienate them and destroy that you know, alienate them and destroy that you know, alienate them and destroy that opportunity because this there are opportunity because this there are opportunity because this there are stakes to these conversations. And so stakes to these conversations. And so stakes to these conversations. And so when somebody isn't isn't uh you know when somebody isn't isn't uh you know when somebody isn't isn't uh you know entirely on your page like find a way to entirely on your page like find a way to entirely on your page like find a way to communicate with them compassionately uh communicate with them compassionately uh communicate with them compassionately uh rather than alienate them unnecessarily. rather than alienate them unnecessarily. rather than alienate them unnecessarily. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Don't be a dick. Don't be an [ __ ] and >> Don't be a dick. Don't be an [ __ ] and >> Don't be a dick. Don't be an [ __ ] and stop being annoying. stop being annoying. stop being annoying. >> Perfect. So the third and and final >> Perfect. So the third and and final >> Perfect. So the third and and final factor in my mind are the cultural and factor in my mind are the cultural and factor in my mind are the cultural and political shifts that have happened uh political shifts that have happened uh political shifts that have happened uh in the aftermath of 2020 and COVID that in the aftermath of 2020 and COVID that in the aftermath of 2020 and COVID that have changed the landscape and people's have changed the landscape and people's have changed the landscape and people's perspective on diet. And these [snorts] perspective on diet. And these [snorts] perspective on diet. And these [snorts] shifts are in some part a reaction to shifts are in some part a reaction to shifts are in some part a reaction to wokeness. And veganism is is associated wokeness. And veganism is is associated wokeness. And veganism is is associated with wokeness. And and so in order to be with wokeness. And and so in order to be with wokeness. And and so in order to be redpilled, you can't have anything to do redpilled, you can't have anything to do redpilled, you can't have anything to do with veganism. And the last thing any with veganism. And the last thing any with veganism. And the last thing any young man or male wants to be called is young man or male wants to be called is young man or male wants to be called is soy boy. This is like the favorite slur soy boy. This is like the favorite slur soy boy. This is like the favorite slur of the red pill. Um and so soy boy of the red pill. Um and so soy boy of the red pill. Um and so soy boy became like basically a slur word and became like basically a slur word and became like basically a slur word and attack. And being vegan became the attack. And being vegan became the attack. And being vegan became the opposite of masculinity. In order to be opposite of masculinity. In order to be opposite of masculinity. In order to be a man and be masculine, you had to be a man and be masculine, you had to be a man and be masculine, you had to be eating meat. And there was just no eating meat. And there was just no eating meat. And there was just no argument to that. And that be that has argument to that. And that be that has argument to that. And that be that has become like really uh an entrenched become like really uh an entrenched become like really uh an entrenched idea. It's not a new idea, but it has idea. It's not a new idea, but it has idea. It's not a new idea, but it has resurfaced with a great deal of resurfaced with a great deal of resurfaced with a great deal of strength. strength. strength. >> Yeah, that interests me though. The the >> Yeah, that interests me though. The the >> Yeah, that interests me though. The the idea that being called a soy boy would idea that being called a soy boy would idea that being called a soy boy would threaten your masculinity. threaten your masculinity. threaten your masculinity. >> How frail is your masculinity? >> How frail is your masculinity? >> How frail is your masculinity? >> I mean, that's pretty fragile, right? >> I mean, that's pretty fragile, right? >> I mean, that's pretty fragile, right? [laughter] [laughter] [laughter] >> That that that's a a construct of >> That that that's a a construct of >> That that that's a a construct of masculinity. Well, it's playing on this masculinity. Well, it's playing on this masculinity. Well, it's playing on this this idea that uh you know masculine this idea that uh you know masculine this idea that uh you know masculine like if you masculinity being associated like if you masculinity being associated like if you masculinity being associated with being the hunter and the provider with being the hunter and the provider with being the hunter and the provider who's going out into the wild and who's going out into the wild and who's going out into the wild and bringing back the animal and providing bringing back the animal and providing bringing back the animal and providing for your family, your tribe, your for your family, your tribe, your for your family, your tribe, your village. This is not how we're living in village. This is not how we're living in village. This is not how we're living in this day and age. And to the extent that this day and age. And to the extent that this day and age. And to the extent that the foods that we're eating are the foods that we're eating are the foods that we're eating are contributing to chronic lifestyle contributing to chronic lifestyle contributing to chronic lifestyle ailments, we're all best to revise our ailments, we're all best to revise our ailments, we're all best to revise our diets and think more consciously about diets and think more consciously about diets and think more consciously about the food choices that we're making and the food choices that we're making and the food choices that we're making and understand that uh you know many of understand that uh you know many of understand that uh you know many of these choices are contributing to the these choices are contributing to the these choices are contributing to the detriment of of the planet and the detriment of of the planet and the detriment of of the planet and the environment and environment and environment and and a degree of suffering. And we can and a degree of suffering. And we can and a degree of suffering. And we can make another choice. And just because make another choice. And just because make another choice. And just because we're eating a different food, it we're eating a different food, it we're eating a different food, it doesn't say anything about who we are as doesn't say anything about who we are as doesn't say anything about who we are as a man. Yeah. A man is a provider and a a man. Yeah. A man is a provider and a a man. Yeah. A man is a provider and a protector. And being a protector means protector. And being a protector means protector. And being a protector means that you speak up for the voiceless and that you speak up for the voiceless and that you speak up for the voiceless and the people that can't take care of the people that can't take care of the people that can't take care of themselves. themselves. themselves. This the the meat on the plate is not This the the meat on the plate is not This the the meat on the plate is not it's not the signal that it once was. As it's not the signal that it once was. As it's not the signal that it once was. As you just alluded to, you know, you just alluded to, you know, you just alluded to, you know, previously the meat meant hunting, which previously the meat meant hunting, which previously the meat meant hunting, which required some strength and physical required some strength and physical required some strength and physical fitness and brought security to the fitness and brought security to the fitness and brought security to the tribe. Today meat means shopping. tribe. Today meat means shopping. tribe. Today meat means shopping. So hunting, shopping, very different. So So hunting, shopping, very different. So So hunting, shopping, very different. So it's not the signal. I think that it's not the signal. I think that it's not the signal. I think that [sighs] [sighs] [sighs] young I think young men today are really young I think young men today are really young I think young men today are really struggling with like what is masculinity struggling with like what is masculinity struggling with like what is masculinity and why is it so hard hard for them to and why is it so hard hard for them to and why is it so hard hard for them to find a a partner to be a good prospect find a a partner to be a good prospect find a a partner to be a good prospect in the in the dating market. and they're in the in the dating market. and they're in the in the dating market. and they're looking at ways to enhance their kind of looking at ways to enhance their kind of looking at ways to enhance their kind of uh their uh their uh their dating uh uh success. dating uh uh success. dating uh uh success. >> Mhm. >> Mhm. >> Mhm. >> Their viability in the dating market, >> Their viability in the dating market, >> Their viability in the dating market, right? And looking back to the right? And looking back to the right? And looking back to the traditional ideals to do that, thinking traditional ideals to do that, thinking traditional ideals to do that, thinking that it's it's like um to to be the that it's it's like um to to be the that it's it's like um to to be the provider and the protector, it's things provider and the protector, it's things provider and the protector, it's things like eating more meat and eating less like eating more meat and eating less like eating more meat and eating less soy foods. Um, but to your point, I soy foods. Um, but to your point, I soy foods. Um, but to your point, I actually think things like physical actually think things like physical actually think things like physical fitness uh very are important for fitness uh very are important for fitness uh very are important for initial attraction. But in terms of initial attraction. But in terms of initial attraction. But in terms of long-term mating, long-term mating, long-term mating, when when we use the words like strength when when we use the words like strength when when we use the words like strength and and being a provider, and and being a provider, and and being a provider, a lot of it is actually to do with your a lot of it is actually to do with your a lot of it is actually to do with your emotional capacity. And so much of the emotional capacity. And so much of the emotional capacity. And so much of the conversation right now around how to conversation right now around how to conversation right now around how to become more masculine I believe is become more masculine I believe is become more masculine I believe is overindexing on these kind of external overindexing on these kind of external overindexing on these kind of external signals like eating more meat signals like eating more meat signals like eating more meat >> instead of being the signal >> instead of being the signal >> instead of being the signal >> to to be a provider and to create safety >> to to be a provider and to create safety >> to to be a provider and to create safety requires a lot of things we've been requires a lot of things we've been requires a lot of things we've been speaking about. Can you sit with your speaking about. Can you sit with your speaking about. Can you sit with your friend or your partner and listen to friend or your partner and listen to friend or your partner and listen to something that they've been through and something that they've been through and something that they've been through and not make it about you and and understand not make it about you and and understand not make it about you and and understand and show them that they that you and show them that they that you and show them that they that you understand so they feel seen and not be understand so they feel seen and not be understand so they feel seen and not be defensive or reactive. And so if I was defensive or reactive. And so if I was defensive or reactive. And so if I was speaking to a a 20-year-old dude right speaking to a a 20-year-old dude right speaking to a a 20-year-old dude right now who was like, "Hey, let's just now who was like, "Hey, let's just now who was like, "Hey, let's just simplify this cuz sometimes this simplify this cuz sometimes this simplify this cuz sometimes this language can seem a little intellectual. language can seem a little intellectual. language can seem a little intellectual. He was he just wanted to make himself a He was he just wanted to make himself a He was he just wanted to make himself a a a more viable prospect. Yes, go out a a more viable prospect. Yes, go out a a more viable prospect. Yes, go out and get fit, you know, focus on the and get fit, you know, focus on the and get fit, you know, focus on the physical your physical fitness, focus on physical your physical fitness, focus on physical your physical fitness, focus on having purpose and drive, but those having purpose and drive, but those having purpose and drive, but those things are almost commoditized. Like things are almost commoditized. Like things are almost commoditized. Like everyone's doing that. M everyone's doing that. M everyone's doing that. M >> the biggest leverage is the emotional >> the biggest leverage is the emotional >> the biggest leverage is the emotional capacity which is what really provides capacity which is what really provides capacity which is what really provides the safety for the partner the safety for the partner the safety for the partner [clears throat] [clears throat] [clears throat] is are you emotionally equipped to is are you emotionally equipped to is are you emotionally equipped to create that space where she feels heard create that space where she feels heard create that space where she feels heard and seen and seen and seen >> and you're not reactive and defensive. >> and you're not reactive and defensive. >> and you're not reactive and defensive. And so to kind of bring this back 360, I And so to kind of bring this back 360, I And so to kind of bring this back 360, I just think that that a lot of the the just think that that a lot of the the just think that that a lot of the the cultural conversation right now around cultural conversation right now around cultural conversation right now around what does it mean to be a man and and what does it mean to be a man and and what does it mean to be a man and and what can you do right now to be more what can you do right now to be more what can you do right now to be more masculine is uh slightly masculine is uh slightly masculine is uh slightly uh distorted. And sometimes those things uh distorted. And sometimes those things uh distorted. And sometimes those things that I I've just explained there can that I I've just explained there can that I I've just explained there can seem kind of soft and and feminine or seem kind of soft and and feminine or seem kind of soft and and feminine or emasculating in in and of themselves. emasculating in in and of themselves. emasculating in in and of themselves. But I don't think we have to look at But I don't think we have to look at But I don't think we have to look at them that way. I think them that way. I think them that way. I think I think sharpening your ability to I think sharpening your ability to I think sharpening your ability to listen and to receive feedback listen and to receive feedback listen and to receive feedback and not be defensive and not always want and not be defensive and not always want and not be defensive and not always want to be right. I actually see that as a to be right. I actually see that as a to be right. I actually see that as a skill that's very similar to going into skill that's very similar to going into skill that's very similar to going into the gym every day. the gym every day. the gym every day. >> It's also the white space like nobody's >> It's also the white space like nobody's >> It's also the white space like nobody's doing that. Like people are terrible doing that. Like people are terrible doing that. Like people are terrible listeners. People are self-obsessed and listeners. People are self-obsessed and listeners. People are self-obsessed and they are challenged to just be with they are challenged to just be with they are challenged to just be with somebody else and ask them what's going somebody else and ask them what's going somebody else and ask them what's going on with you and be totally present for on with you and be totally present for on with you and be totally present for that answer and not thinking about what that answer and not thinking about what that answer and not thinking about what they're going to say next. Uh, and if they're going to say next. Uh, and if they're going to say next. Uh, and if you can develop just a modicum of that you can develop just a modicum of that you can develop just a modicum of that capacity, it puts you in the top 0.01% capacity, it puts you in the top 0.01% capacity, it puts you in the top 0.01% of people. So that is a really smart way of people. So that is a really smart way of people. So that is a really smart way to think about it. it just doesn't light to think about it. it just doesn't light to think about it. it just doesn't light up the the the lizard brain in the same up the the the lizard brain in the same up the the the lizard brain in the same way that you know the kind of hardcore way that you know the kind of hardcore way that you know the kind of hardcore message that appeals to young men that message that appeals to young men that message that appeals to young men that you're seeing out there. So to drill it you're seeing out there. So to drill it you're seeing out there. So to drill it down to an example, you're you're a down to an example, you're you're a down to an example, you're you're a young male. You're somewhere in a set of young male. You're somewhere in a set of young male. You're somewhere in a set of circumstances where you look around, you circumstances where you look around, you circumstances where you look around, you don't see a lot of opportunity. You don't see a lot of opportunity. You don't see a lot of opportunity. You don't see a lot of potential mates. don't see a lot of potential mates. don't see a lot of potential mates. You're lacking self-esteem. You don't You're lacking self-esteem. You don't You're lacking self-esteem. You don't feel like your life has agency. You open feel like your life has agency. You open feel like your life has agency. You open up your phone and you start scrolling up your phone and you start scrolling up your phone and you start scrolling and you become very vulnerable to the and you become very vulnerable to the and you become very vulnerable to the kind of aggressive manosphere message kind of aggressive manosphere message kind of aggressive manosphere message that is telling you like you need to go that is telling you like you need to go that is telling you like you need to go throw around heavy weights. That's fine. throw around heavy weights. That's fine. throw around heavy weights. That's fine. You should do that, right? like go to You should do that, right? like go to You should do that, right? like go to the gym. Uh but you need to go out. No the gym. Uh but you need to go out. No the gym. Uh but you need to go out. No one's going to give it to you. You got one's going to give it to you. You got one's going to give it to you. You got to go out and you got [clears throat] to to go out and you got [clears throat] to to go out and you got [clears throat] to claim it for yourself and here's how claim it for yourself and here's how claim it for yourself and here's how you're going to do it and you're going you're going to do it and you're going you're going to do it and you're going to be aggressive and you're going to to be aggressive and you're going to to be aggressive and you're going to tell people the way that it is and don't tell people the way that it is and don't tell people the way that it is and don't let any of these women push you around. let any of these women push you around. let any of these women push you around. Like that is fundamentally a message Like that is fundamentally a message Like that is fundamentally a message that comes from a place of insecurity, that comes from a place of insecurity, that comes from a place of insecurity, you know, like and fear. Uh it's very you know, like and fear. Uh it's very you know, like and fear. Uh it's very effective at like selling courses or you effective at like selling courses or you effective at like selling courses or you know kind of uh entrenching you, you know kind of uh entrenching you, you know kind of uh entrenching you, you know, in deeper levels of the know, in deeper levels of the know, in deeper levels of the manosphere. And part and parcel of that manosphere. And part and parcel of that manosphere. And part and parcel of that whole messaging is like whole messaging is like whole messaging is like >> start eating steak, you know, like that >> start eating steak, you know, like that >> start eating steak, you know, like that just gets woven into that like this will just gets woven into that like this will just gets woven into that like this will make you feel more primal in your male make you feel more primal in your male make you feel more primal in your male essence. Uh but essentially what you're essence. Uh but essentially what you're essence. Uh but essentially what you're saying is true. Like if you actually saying is true. Like if you actually saying is true. Like if you actually want a partner, like want a partner, like want a partner, like >> learn [clears throat] how to listen. >> learn [clears throat] how to listen. >> learn [clears throat] how to listen. Learn how to be with somebody and be Learn how to be with somebody and be Learn how to be with somebody and be curious about them and stop obsessing curious about them and stop obsessing curious about them and stop obsessing about like how you're coming off and about like how you're coming off and about like how you're coming off and start thinking about like how how u that start thinking about like how how u that start thinking about like how how u that person can can feel seen and honored and person can can feel seen and honored and person can can feel seen and honored and you literally are then like in the top you literally are then like in the top you literally are then like in the top tier of tier of tier of >> of male candidates for >> of male candidates for >> of male candidates for >> and in that process [laughter] >> and in that process [laughter] >> and in that process [laughter] you're going to become you're going to become you're going to become >> and it doesn't matter what you're >> and it doesn't matter what you're >> and it doesn't matter what you're eating. you're going to become so what's eating. you're going to become so what's eating. you're going to become so what's on your plate is irrelevant. You will on your plate is irrelevant. You will on your plate is irrelevant. You will become comfortable in your own skin. So become comfortable in your own skin. So become comfortable in your own skin. So the insecurities that you're talking the insecurities that you're talking the insecurities that you're talking about. Uh you someone said to me this about. Uh you someone said to me this about. Uh you someone said to me this was a little while ago they said like um was a little while ago they said like um was a little while ago they said like um security feeling secure in yourself is security feeling secure in yourself is security feeling secure in yourself is is like the residue. It's it's it's is like the residue. It's it's it's is like the residue. It's it's it's what's left over. And so if I was again, what's left over. And so if I was again, what's left over. And so if I was again, if I was speaking to a young man right if I was speaking to a young man right if I was speaking to a young man right now that's like a little bit confused, now that's like a little bit confused, now that's like a little bit confused, the thinking outward to whether it's the thinking outward to whether it's the thinking outward to whether it's meat or the tribe you align yourself meat or the tribe you align yourself meat or the tribe you align yourself with or if the girls attracted to you or with or if the girls attracted to you or with or if the girls attracted to you or did you get that highpaying job that did you get that highpaying job that did you get that highpaying job that that's not going to bring the security that's not going to bring the security that's not going to bring the security that you're looking for. The security that you're looking for. The security that you're looking for. The security that you're looking for and having high that you're looking for and having high that you're looking for and having high selfworth is going in and saying, "Who selfworth is going in and saying, "Who selfworth is going in and saying, "Who do I want to be?" Okay, these are the do I want to be?" Okay, these are the do I want to be?" Okay, these are the things that that are important to me. I things that that are important to me. I things that that are important to me. I want to be trusted. I want to be loyal. want to be trusted. I want to be loyal. want to be trusted. I want to be loyal. I want to be dependable, accountable. I want to be dependable, accountable. I want to be dependable, accountable. You know, traits that we would say are You know, traits that we would say are You know, traits that we would say are strong masculine traits, human traits strong masculine traits, human traits strong masculine traits, human traits really. And then when the rubber meets really. And then when the rubber meets really. And then when the rubber meets the road the road the road and you get out in the world and you and you get out in the world and you and you get out in the world and you live, are the behaviors, the things live, are the behaviors, the things live, are the behaviors, the things you're doing consistent with those. you're doing consistent with those. you're doing consistent with those. And the bigger that gap, the less the And the bigger that gap, the less the And the bigger that gap, the less the less selfworth that we tend to have, less selfworth that we tend to have, less selfworth that we tend to have, >> the more insecurities we tend to have. >> the more insecurities we tend to have. >> the more insecurities we tend to have. But as you progress through life and you But as you progress through life and you But as you progress through life and you work at kind of set like minimizing the work at kind of set like minimizing the work at kind of set like minimizing the gap between who you think you are and gap between who you think you are and gap between who you think you are and who you actually are, then you're who you actually are, then you're who you actually are, then you're inevitably your masks are coming off. inevitably your masks are coming off. inevitably your masks are coming off. >> You're living in integrity. >> You're living in integrity. >> You're living in integrity. >> And when you're living in integrity, you >> And when you're living in integrity, you >> And when you're living in integrity, you know, you're you're showing up as as as know, you're you're showing up as as as know, you're you're showing up as as as someone to others. The way other people someone to others. The way other people someone to others. The way other people are experiencing you when you're in are experiencing you when you're in are experiencing you when you're in integrity is like this person's not integrity is like this person's not integrity is like this person's not wearing any masks. They're authentic. wearing any masks. They're authentic. wearing any masks. They're authentic. And that is attractive. And that is attractive. And that is attractive. >> Incredibly attractive. Much more >> Incredibly attractive. Much more >> Incredibly attractive. Much more attractive than whatever your flex is or attractive than whatever your flex is or attractive than whatever your flex is or the watch that's on your wrist or you the watch that's on your wrist or you the watch that's on your wrist or you know the job that you're talking about know the job that you're talking about know the job that you're talking about or the car that you're driving. All of or the car that you're driving. All of or the car that you're driving. All of those things are masks in and of those things are masks in and of those things are masks in and of themselves. And the attraction comes themselves. And the attraction comes themselves. And the attraction comes with removing the masks, not layering with removing the masks, not layering with removing the masks, not layering yourself with more of them. And it's yourself with more of them. And it's yourself with more of them. And it's hard because we I think particularly hard because we I think particularly hard because we I think particularly like men haven't had the the role models like men haven't had the the role models like men haven't had the the role models that make a lot of these things that make a lot of these things that make a lot of these things intuitive. So the skills that we we've intuitive. So the skills that we we've intuitive. So the skills that we we've been talking about being a better been talking about being a better been talking about being a better listener and not being defensive and not listener and not being defensive and not listener and not being defensive and not trying to be right all the time and just trying to be right all the time and just trying to be right all the time and just just listening to understand these just listening to understand these just listening to understand these haven't necessarily been modeled in haven't necessarily been modeled in haven't necessarily been modeled in households. households. households. So, So, So, we're going to fumble. It's not going to we're going to fumble. It's not going to we're going to fumble. It's not going to be perfect. And be perfect. And be perfect. And at least in my experience, it's having at least in my experience, it's having at least in my experience, it's having like a a degree of grace with that, but like a a degree of grace with that, but like a a degree of grace with that, but also not accepting the same patterns also not accepting the same patterns also not accepting the same patterns over and over and like standing strong over and over and like standing strong over and over and like standing strong and and being committed to to doing and and being committed to to doing and and being committed to to doing better. [clears throat] better. [clears throat] better. [clears throat] >> Mhm. >> Mhm. >> Mhm. >> And that's how over time you start >> And that's how over time you start >> And that's how over time you start shedding those those masks. And you shedding those those masks. And you shedding those those masks. And you know, I sit here as someone right now know, I sit here as someone right now know, I sit here as someone right now that has many masks to still shed that has many masks to still shed that has many masks to still shed >> and absolutely >> and absolutely >> and absolutely a huge work in progress, but I can just a huge work in progress, but I can just a huge work in progress, but I can just speak to that as someone that's that's speak to that as someone that's that's speak to that as someone that's that's that's in it. And I think I kind of wish that's in it. And I think I kind of wish that's in it. And I think I kind of wish my 20-year-old self heard that. And so I my 20-year-old self heard that. And so I my 20-year-old self heard that. And so I would would have invested more time would would have invested more time would would have invested more time earlier in my 20s into some of these earlier in my 20s into some of these earlier in my 20s into some of these things. to bring it back around like things. to bring it back around like things. to bring it back around like what you're eating is not contributing what you're eating is not contributing what you're eating is not contributing or antagonizing or antagonizing or antagonizing uh your identity as a male. You know uh your identity as a male. You know uh your identity as a male. You know what I mean? Like that is a red herring what I mean? Like that is a red herring what I mean? Like that is a red herring and irrelevant. It's no more relevant and irrelevant. It's no more relevant and irrelevant. It's no more relevant than the kind of car you're driving or than the kind of car you're driving or than the kind of car you're driving or the watch that's on your wrist. But it's the watch that's on your wrist. But it's the watch that's on your wrist. But it's incredibly powerful. We just saw this incredibly powerful. We just saw this incredibly powerful. We just saw this whole uh narrative around James Tarico's whole uh narrative around James Tarico's whole uh narrative around James Tarico's girlfriend who apparently is vegan and girlfriend who apparently is vegan and girlfriend who apparently is vegan and now he's being pillaried as you know now he's being pillaried as you know now he's being pillaried as you know weak. Uh I think Trump called him vegan weak. Uh I think Trump called him vegan weak. Uh I think Trump called him vegan and this is like a this is a slur word. and this is like a this is a slur word. and this is like a this is a slur word. This is like a you know this can like This is like a you know this can like This is like a you know this can like bury your political career just being bury your political career just being bury your political career just being called this word because if you want to called this word because if you want to called this word because if you want to be a leader you got to be eating meat be a leader you got to be eating meat be a leader you got to be eating meat preferably steak. And this conflation of preferably steak. And this conflation of preferably steak. And this conflation of ideas, this conflation of masculinity ideas, this conflation of masculinity ideas, this conflation of masculinity with eating meat, it's deeply uh with eating meat, it's deeply uh with eating meat, it's deeply uh embedded in our culture and very embedded in our culture and very embedded in our culture and very resistant to logically being resistant to logically being resistant to logically being deconstructed. Like there's something deconstructed. Like there's something deconstructed. Like there's something deep within our ourselves that um holds deep within our ourselves that um holds deep within our ourselves that um holds on to that as true even though if we on to that as true even though if we on to that as true even though if we look at it even on a surface level, we look at it even on a surface level, we look at it even on a surface level, we realize it's kind of nonsense. I think realize it's kind of nonsense. I think realize it's kind of nonsense. I think most of us are moving at such a pace most of us are moving at such a pace most of us are moving at such a pace that we're not stopping to to kind of that we're not stopping to to kind of that we're not stopping to to kind of deeply examine that and it is so deeply deeply examine that and it is so deeply deeply examine that and it is so deeply rooted in culture and society and and rooted in culture and society and and rooted in culture and society and and and marketing and now politicians and um and marketing and now politicians and um and marketing and now politicians and um so it's it's accepted at face value. so it's it's accepted at face value. so it's it's accepted at face value. >> Yeah. But the interesting thing is the >> Yeah. But the interesting thing is the >> Yeah. But the interesting thing is the fundamental philosophy of the red pill fundamental philosophy of the red pill fundamental philosophy of the red pill is that the institutions are broken and is that the institutions are broken and is that the institutions are broken and they're lying to you. But they're lying to you. But they're lying to you. But this idea that uh meat is equated with this idea that uh meat is equated with this idea that uh meat is equated with masculinity masculinity masculinity is is basically uh a talking point of is is basically uh a talking point of is is basically uh a talking point of the meat and dairy industry who want you the meat and dairy industry who want you the meat and dairy industry who want you to believe that like they're very to believe that like they're very to believe that like they're very heavily incentivized in that idea heavily incentivized in that idea heavily incentivized in that idea remaining exactly where it is. And so remaining exactly where it is. And so remaining exactly where it is. And so it's kind of the opposite of being it's kind of the opposite of being it's kind of the opposite of being redpilled to like buy into that notion. redpilled to like buy into that notion. redpilled to like buy into that notion. I mean that's interesting in and of I mean that's interesting in and of I mean that's interesting in and of itself because I feel [gasps] itself because I feel [gasps] itself because I feel [gasps] through through co I feel like there through through co I feel like there through through co I feel like there there uh was and and I think rightly so there uh was and and I think rightly so there uh was and and I think rightly so in part a push back against control and in part a push back against control and in part a push back against control and and regulation. and regulation. and regulation. And I I think the meat industry did a And I I think the meat industry did a And I I think the meat industry did a good job of kind of positioning this good job of kind of positioning this good job of kind of positioning this message of eat more plants as control or message of eat more plants as control or message of eat more plants as control or overreach from companies and overreach from companies and overreach from companies and organizations. You you'd hear people organizations. You you'd hear people organizations. You you'd hear people saying, you know, Bill Gates is is saying, you know, Bill Gates is is saying, you know, Bill Gates is is investing deeply into plant-based meat. investing deeply into plant-based meat. investing deeply into plant-based meat. >> Yeah. He wants you to be eating all >> Yeah. He wants you to be eating all >> Yeah. He wants you to be eating all these these these >> and the food sovereignty message was >> and the food sovereignty message was >> and the food sovereignty message was attached to meat, not to eating more attached to meat, not to eating more attached to meat, not to eating more plants. Um, and so that was that's plants. Um, and so that was that's plants. Um, and so that was that's another I guess piece of this kind of another I guess piece of this kind of another I guess piece of this kind of change in in culture that has has led to change in in culture that has has led to change in in culture that has has led to that that vibe shift where we started that that vibe shift where we started that that vibe shift where we started this conversation where where certain this conversation where where certain this conversation where where certain people have um felt that the the people have um felt that the the people have um felt that the the plant-based community or plant-based plant-based community or plant-based plant-based community or plant-based message is a very far-left message message is a very far-left message message is a very far-left message >> and is associated with control as >> and is associated with control as >> and is associated with control as opposed to freedom. But from the opposed to freedom. But from the opposed to freedom. But from the perspective of control, perspective of control, perspective of control, who benefits or profits from this idea who benefits or profits from this idea who benefits or profits from this idea that um meat is is equated with that um meat is is equated with that um meat is is equated with masculinity? Well, the bit the meat masculinity? Well, the bit the meat masculinity? Well, the bit the meat industry, right? industry, right? industry, right? >> And it's the big meat companies, not the >> And it's the big meat companies, not the >> And it's the big meat companies, not the local farmers. And so part of that local farmers. And so part of that local farmers. And so part of that story, I think people are led to believe story, I think people are led to believe story, I think people are led to believe that food sovereignty message, eating that food sovereignty message, eating that food sovereignty message, eating more meat, is is supporting local more meat, is is supporting local more meat, is is supporting local ranchers. But when you dig into it, it's ranchers. But when you dig into it, it's ranchers. But when you dig into it, it's really the the big meat really the the big meat really the the big meat >> companies that benefit. The other thing >> companies that benefit. The other thing >> companies that benefit. The other thing that I I might circle back on here is that I I might circle back on here is that I I might circle back on here is you mentioned that part of of you mentioned that part of of you mentioned that part of of masculinity is protecting the vulnerable masculinity is protecting the vulnerable masculinity is protecting the vulnerable and protecting the the voiceless. And I and protecting the the voiceless. And I and protecting the the voiceless. And I would say I personally I would say I personally I would say I personally I identify with the the pursuit of identify with the the pursuit of identify with the the pursuit of living in a way that living in a way that living in a way that is as beneficial for the environment and is as beneficial for the environment and is as beneficial for the environment and other animals and other humans as other animals and other humans as other animals and other humans as possible. possible. possible. And I find that to be not a a weakness And I find that to be not a a weakness And I find that to be not a a weakness or a soft trait, but a a a strength. And or a soft trait, but a a a strength. And or a soft trait, but a a a strength. And I think it takes temperance and it takes I think it takes temperance and it takes I think it takes temperance and it takes some some some uh courage to uh courage to uh courage to step aside from what most of society is step aside from what most of society is step aside from what most of society is doing. And and I'm not saying again, I doing. And and I'm not saying again, I doing. And and I'm not saying again, I don't think people need to do this don't think people need to do this don't think people need to do this perfectly and there's not one way of perfectly and there's not one way of perfectly and there's not one way of doing it. But I think questioning that doing it. But I think questioning that doing it. But I think questioning that and and and saying I'm going to have some some saying I'm going to have some some saying I'm going to have some some discipline and strength to make some discipline and strength to make some discipline and strength to make some choices here that that I think are not choices here that that I think are not choices here that that I think are not just better for myself, but better for just better for myself, but better for just better for myself, but better for the the world around me. You were the the world around me. You were the the world around me. You were talking earlier about adhering to your talking earlier about adhering to your talking earlier about adhering to your values, like aligning your actions with values, like aligning your actions with values, like aligning your actions with your values to live a life in integrity. your values to live a life in integrity. your values to live a life in integrity. And so when I think about masculinity And so when I think about masculinity And so when I think about masculinity and manhood, rather than looking at meat and manhood, rather than looking at meat and manhood, rather than looking at meat as a proxy for those things on a surface as a proxy for those things on a surface as a proxy for those things on a surface level, instead looking at yourself and level, instead looking at yourself and level, instead looking at yourself and going beneath the layers to try to going beneath the layers to try to going beneath the layers to try to identify what your ethics are, what do identify what your ethics are, what do identify what your ethics are, what do you stand for? what's important to you, you stand for? what's important to you, you stand for? what's important to you, what are you willing to take a stand what are you willing to take a stand what are you willing to take a stand for? And then making the hard decisions for? And then making the hard decisions for? And then making the hard decisions around your actions to make sure that around your actions to make sure that around your actions to make sure that you're living up to that ethical you're living up to that ethical you're living up to that ethical standard, whatever it is. And this is standard, whatever it is. And this is standard, whatever it is. And this is very much in alignment with the stoic very much in alignment with the stoic very much in alignment with the stoic notion of life, which is essentially notion of life, which is essentially notion of life, which is essentially that life is difficult and there are that life is difficult and there are that life is difficult and there are going to be obstacles. And being a man going to be obstacles. And being a man going to be obstacles. And being a man means you accept all of these things. means you accept all of these things. means you accept all of these things. You make the difficult choices and you You make the difficult choices and you You make the difficult choices and you make the hard choice when it's not make the hard choice when it's not make the hard choice when it's not convenient. So instead of caving to your convenient. So instead of caving to your convenient. So instead of caving to your cravings or being manipulated by a cravings or being manipulated by a cravings or being manipulated by a marketing message that wants you to marketing message that wants you to marketing message that wants you to believe in order to be a man you need to believe in order to be a man you need to believe in order to be a man you need to buy this thing or do that other thing, buy this thing or do that other thing, buy this thing or do that other thing, checking in with yourself and getting checking in with yourself and getting checking in with yourself and getting very clear like this is right and this very clear like this is right and this very clear like this is right and this is wrong. At least to me, these are my is wrong. At least to me, these are my is wrong. At least to me, these are my rules. And life is going to throw rules. And life is going to throw rules. And life is going to throw challenges at me where what I want to do challenges at me where what I want to do challenges at me where what I want to do and what is consistent with that ethic and what is consistent with that ethic and what is consistent with that ethic are going to come into conflict. And the are going to come into conflict. And the are going to come into conflict. And the man is the person who does the hard man is the person who does the hard man is the person who does the hard thing and makes the choice they don't thing and makes the choice they don't thing and makes the choice they don't want to that isn't convenient and want to that isn't convenient and want to that isn't convenient and doesn't feel good, but is consistent doesn't feel good, but is consistent doesn't feel good, but is consistent with that ethical perspective because with that ethical perspective because with that ethical perspective because that is what living a life in integrity that is what living a life in integrity that is what living a life in integrity is. And if you want to be more is. And if you want to be more is. And if you want to be more self-actualized, self-actualized, self-actualized, more integrous, more integrous, more integrous, where your actions are in alignment with where your actions are in alignment with where your actions are in alignment with your ethics and your values and you know your ethics and your values and you know your ethics and your values and you know what those values are and you stand up what those values are and you stand up what those values are and you stand up for them, that is the ultimate flex of for them, that is the ultimate flex of for them, that is the ultimate flex of strength and that's a very attractive strength and that's a very attractive strength and that's a very attractive thing. somebody who stands up for what thing. somebody who stands up for what thing. somebody who stands up for what they believe in even when it's not they believe in even when it's not they believe in even when it's not convenient, even when it might irritate convenient, even when it might irritate convenient, even when it might irritate other people or even when it compromises other people or even when it compromises other people or even when it compromises like the thing you really want to do, like the thing you really want to do, like the thing you really want to do, the comfortable thing, the thing that's the comfortable thing, the thing that's the comfortable thing, the thing that's going to make you feel good. That is going to make you feel good. That is going to make you feel good. That is what being a man is. That's what being a what being a man is. That's what being a what being a man is. That's what being a self-actualized human is. It's making self-actualized human is. It's making self-actualized human is. It's making the hard choice when it's not the hard choice when it's not the hard choice when it's not convenient. And back to what we were convenient. And back to what we were convenient. And back to what we were saying earlier about the judging that saying earlier about the judging that saying earlier about the judging that comes in the in the vegan community. comes in the in the vegan community. comes in the in the vegan community. This is where I think the absolute This is where I think the absolute This is where I think the absolute message of someone must be vegan in message of someone must be vegan in message of someone must be vegan in order for it to be successful tick. I order for it to be successful tick. I order for it to be successful tick. I think what you're talking about there, think what you're talking about there, think what you're talking about there, someone's values, someone values animal someone's values, someone values animal someone's values, someone values animal welfare, they value the environment, welfare, they value the environment, welfare, they value the environment, they also value their health. And so I they also value their health. And so I they also value their health. And so I think the aspiration to eat as plant think the aspiration to eat as plant think the aspiration to eat as plant exclusive as possible exclusive as possible exclusive as possible based on looking at those three based on looking at those three based on looking at those three different things myself. That's that's different things myself. That's that's different things myself. That's that's where I've landed. And so it's difficult where I've landed. And so it's difficult where I've landed. And so it's difficult from the outside to judge someone based from the outside to judge someone based from the outside to judge someone based on the way they're eating because only on the way they're eating because only on the way they're eating because only they can do that reconciliation. they can do that reconciliation. they can do that reconciliation. Only they when their head hits the Only they when their head hits the Only they when their head hits the pillow at night. Are they are they pillow at night. Are they are they pillow at night. Are they are they eating as as kind of plant-based as eating as as kind of plant-based as eating as as kind of plant-based as possible in a way that leaves them possible in a way that leaves them possible in a way that leaves them feeling healthy, leaves them feeling feeling healthy, leaves them feeling feeling healthy, leaves them feeling nourished, leaves them feeling good in nourished, leaves them feeling good in nourished, leaves them feeling good in their body, and is also great for the their body, and is also great for the their body, and is also great for the environment? And and so to me, that environment? And and so to me, that environment? And and so to me, that seems like that is the strongest message seems like that is the strongest message seems like that is the strongest message to communicate outwards and then let to communicate outwards and then let to communicate outwards and then let every individual assess what what feels every individual assess what what feels every individual assess what what feels right for them and where they land. right for them and where they land. right for them and where they land. >> All right. So to bring this to a >> All right. So to bring this to a >> All right. So to bring this to a conclusion, hopefully we've um conclusion, hopefully we've um conclusion, hopefully we've um rearranged some thinking uh around like rearranged some thinking uh around like rearranged some thinking uh around like how to approach this lifestyle or how to how to approach this lifestyle or how to how to approach this lifestyle or how to conceptualize it. But let's leave people conceptualize it. But let's leave people conceptualize it. But let's leave people with some practical ways to get started. with some practical ways to get started. with some practical ways to get started. Uh so if you're encouraged by what Uh so if you're encouraged by what Uh so if you're encouraged by what you've heard and you're curious about you've heard and you're curious about you've heard and you're curious about how you might begin the process of how you might begin the process of how you might begin the process of eating a more plant predominant diet, eating a more plant predominant diet, eating a more plant predominant diet, what is the best way to do that? Simon, what is the best way to do that? Simon, what is the best way to do that? Simon, >> and I'll highlight I I want people to >> and I'll highlight I I want people to >> and I'll highlight I I want people to know you can have the physical fitness know you can have the physical fitness know you can have the physical fitness and the body that you want and eat in a and the body that you want and eat in a and the body that you want and eat in a way that's good for your health, good way that's good for your health, good way that's good for your health, good for the environment, animal welfare. So, for the environment, animal welfare. So, for the environment, animal welfare. So, you can have it all and and have your you can have it all and and have your you can have it all and and have your values aligned. And it doesn't have to values aligned. And it doesn't have to values aligned. And it doesn't have to be complicated. I think sometimes we run be complicated. I think sometimes we run be complicated. I think sometimes we run the risk of over complicating this. It's the risk of over complicating this. It's the risk of over complicating this. It's it's not eating as much red meat and and it's not eating as much red meat and and it's not eating as much red meat and and white meat and processed meat to start white meat and processed meat to start white meat and processed meat to start with and instead starting to eat more with and instead starting to eat more with and instead starting to eat more legumes. What do I mean by legumes? legumes. What do I mean by legumes? legumes. What do I mean by legumes? Tofu, tempeh, lentils, beans, chickpeas, Tofu, tempeh, lentils, beans, chickpeas, Tofu, tempeh, lentils, beans, chickpeas, and yes, those foods by themselves, like and yes, those foods by themselves, like and yes, those foods by themselves, like most animal proteins, pretty bland. So, most animal proteins, pretty bland. So, most animal proteins, pretty bland. So, season them, use the flavors that you season them, use the flavors that you season them, use the flavors that you currently like in your cooking, and you currently like in your cooking, and you currently like in your cooking, and you can make them taste really good. They're can make them taste really good. They're can make them taste really good. They're really just a flavor vehicle. you you do really just a flavor vehicle. you you do really just a flavor vehicle. you you do need to pay attention to protein. So, need to pay attention to protein. So, need to pay attention to protein. So, don't just take the animal proteins out don't just take the animal proteins out don't just take the animal proteins out and not consider what you're replacing and not consider what you're replacing and not consider what you're replacing them with. Get 1.2 g per kilogram at them with. Get 1.2 g per kilogram at them with. Get 1.2 g per kilogram at least. If you're really physically least. If you're really physically least. If you're really physically active, get 1.6 six gram of protein per active, get 1.6 six gram of protein per active, get 1.6 six gram of protein per kilogram and throw in a a protein shake kilogram and throw in a a protein shake kilogram and throw in a a protein shake in the morning or afternoon after you in the morning or afternoon after you in the morning or afternoon after you train and put peanut butter and whatever train and put peanut butter and whatever train and put peanut butter and whatever milk you're using and berries and dark milk you're using and berries and dark milk you're using and berries and dark leafy greens in there and then all of a leafy greens in there and then all of a leafy greens in there and then all of a sudden that contains another 40 g of sudden that contains another 40 g of sudden that contains another 40 g of protein and a lot of nutrients protein and a lot of nutrients protein and a lot of nutrients above that I think at a high level for above that I think at a high level for above that I think at a high level for someone that's dipping their toes into someone that's dipping their toes into someone that's dipping their toes into this take a multivitamin as an insurance this take a multivitamin as an insurance this take a multivitamin as an insurance policy you could refine that later and policy you could refine that later and policy you could refine that later and go more strategic on individual go more strategic on individual go more strategic on individual supplements, but start with the supplements, but start with the supplements, but start with the multivitamin and a DHA, EPA, omega-3 multivitamin and a DHA, EPA, omega-3 multivitamin and a DHA, EPA, omega-3 supplement, which is fish oil or algae supplement, which is fish oil or algae supplement, which is fish oil or algae oil. That's really as complex as it oil. That's really as complex as it oil. That's really as complex as it needs to be as a starting point. And needs to be as a starting point. And needs to be as a starting point. And across the week, trying to eat lots of across the week, trying to eat lots of across the week, trying to eat lots of fruits and vegetables and and whole fruits and vegetables and and whole fruits and vegetables and and whole grains and nuts and seeds. grains and nuts and seeds. grains and nuts and seeds. >> That's a good way to start. If you want >> That's a good way to start. If you want >> That's a good way to start. If you want to get deeper into the weeds, you can to get deeper into the weeds, you can to get deeper into the weeds, you can pick up Simon's book, The Proof is in pick up Simon's book, The Proof is in pick up Simon's book, The Proof is in the Plants, and tune in to Simon's the Plants, and tune in to Simon's the Plants, and tune in to Simon's podcast, The Proof, where he sits down podcast, The Proof, where he sits down podcast, The Proof, where he sits down with all of these nutrition scientists with all of these nutrition scientists with all of these nutrition scientists and they go deep into the weeds on the and they go deep into the weeds on the and they go deep into the weeds on the research and what we know, what we still research and what we know, what we still research and what we know, what we still are trying to find out. Um, [snorts] are trying to find out. Um, [snorts] are trying to find out. Um, [snorts] also, uh, you can pick up Finding Ultra, also, uh, you can pick up Finding Ultra, also, uh, you can pick up Finding Ultra, my memoir. In the appendices in the back my memoir. In the appendices in the back my memoir. In the appendices in the back of that, I have like 50 pages of like of that, I have like 50 pages of like of that, I have like 50 pages of like how I do it and how I've made it work as how I do it and how I've made it work as how I do it and how I've made it work as an ultra endurance athlete doing double an ultra endurance athlete doing double an ultra endurance athlete doing double iron mans and all kinds of crazy iron mans and all kinds of crazy iron mans and all kinds of crazy challenges. Um, we also have two challenges. Um, we also have two challenges. Um, we also have two cookbooks, the Plant Power Way and the cookbooks, the Plant Power Way and the cookbooks, the Plant Power Way and the Plant Power Way Italia. And I too have Plant Power Way Italia. And I too have Plant Power Way Italia. And I too have hosted many uh research scientists on my hosted many uh research scientists on my hosted many uh research scientists on my podcast over the years. Uh, but you can podcast over the years. Uh, but you can podcast over the years. Uh, but you can go back and just search Rich Roll Simon go back and just search Rich Roll Simon go back and just search Rich Roll Simon Hill and you'll find the many episodes Hill and you'll find the many episodes Hill and you'll find the many episodes that we've done. We must have done like that we've done. We must have done like that we've done. We must have done like a dozen at this point or something like a dozen at this point or something like a dozen at this point or something like that. So, there's plenty there for you that. So, there's plenty there for you that. So, there's plenty there for you for those who are eager to learn. And for those who are eager to learn. And for those who are eager to learn. And the water's warm over here. I would say the water's warm over here. I would say the water's warm over here. I would say that Simon has done an admirable job of that Simon has done an admirable job of that Simon has done an admirable job of modeling an aspirational lifestyle. modeling an aspirational lifestyle. modeling an aspirational lifestyle. You're very fit and successful and have You're very fit and successful and have You're very fit and successful and have a beautiful partner. you're in a loving a beautiful partner. you're in a loving a beautiful partner. you're in a loving relationship. I've been married for a relationship. I've been married for a relationship. I've been married for a long time and you know I'm a parent with long time and you know I'm a parent with long time and you know I'm a parent with children and running a business while children and running a business while children and running a business while also uh acquitting myself as an athlete also uh acquitting myself as an athlete also uh acquitting myself as an athlete in my later decades. And so this is not in my later decades. And so this is not in my later decades. And so this is not only possible I actually find it to be only possible I actually find it to be only possible I actually find it to be an aspirational way to live and if it an aspirational way to live and if it an aspirational way to live and if it wasn't I wouldn't still be living it. wasn't I wouldn't still be living it. wasn't I wouldn't still be living it. >> Thank you very much [music] Rich for >> Thank you very much [music] Rich for >> Thank you very much [music] Rich for having me again. having me again. having me again. >> Yeah thanks for thanks for sharing. >> Yeah thanks for thanks for sharing. >> Yeah thanks for thanks for sharing. appreciate you and always appreciate appreciate you and always appreciate appreciate you and always appreciate coming on and I love the feedback I get coming on and I love the feedback I get coming on and I love the feedback I get from your community. So, it's a from your community. So, it's a from your community. So, it's a pleasure. pleasure. pleasure. >> Cool. [music] And to be continued. All >> Cool. [music] And to be continued. All >> Cool. [music] And to be continued. All right. Peace. [snorts] More plants.