we need to talk about the Elizabeth Holmes doc (unfiltered review)

Alright, so this is going to be a movie discussion about the new Nathan Fielder, Elizabeth Holmes documentary called You Can See Everything. This is full of spoilers. So if you haven't seen the movie and you don't want spoilers, don't watch this. I feel like I can rule the world. I know I could be what I want to. I put my all in it like no days off on the road. Let's travel. This is for people who have seen it and want to react with other people to the thing, except for Sam hasn't seen it. And I gave him it out. I said, you don't have to get spoiled, but you want to get spoiled. I want to be spoiled. I'm a grown man. I cannot stand what people say. I don't. It's like, dude, just tell me everything that happens, please. Well, Nathan Fielder himself, I was reading an interview and he said he read some study. They had two groups of people, one that were spoiled and one that was unspoiled. And they watched the movie and the enjoyment of the movie was higher amongst the spoiled group than the unspoiled group. So he's like, maybe there's something to it where people actually like it more when they kind of know what's coming. So what's the premise here? All I know is that Nathan Fielder is like a Sacha Baron Cohen like character where he's silly and satirical. He had a show where he would prank people. But this seems serious. Well, we should lay the groundwork. So Sam hasn't seen the movie. Me and Diego went and saw it last night, but we didn't talk to each other afterwards. We got out at midnight, went home. And then, Ben, I think you're more of a Nathan Fielder fan. Like you've watched. Ben, have you watched like Nathan for you and the rehearsal like fully or partially or what? Yeah, partially. But I would definitely I'm a fan of his craft. All right. So Sam, your question is, what's the premise of the movie? The premise of the movie is 34 days before Elizabeth Holmes was going to go into prison. So she post it's post all the scandal after she was already convicted. Now, 34 days away from going into jail. And she's got two little kids and she's got her. Not husband, technically, I think fiance, they're not married because she owes hundreds of millions of dollars in restitution, so they didn't want to get married and combine their finances, but they have two kids. And so he calls her his wife, even though it's fiance. All right. So she's 34 days away from going in and they they contact a 24 about doing a movie together, documenting her beforehand. Nothing comes of it. Nathan Fielder finds out about this, jumps on the opportunity, moves in with her in her house, tiny, tiny house on the beach and Delmar and lives with her for 34 days. And then for the next three years, continues to pursue the story in complete secrecy until it debuted at a random film at the Telluride Film Festival a few months ago and surprised everybody. It was unbelievable. The reviews coming out of her unbelievable. Now the movie is the top rated movie, I think, on Letterboxd, Rotten Tomatoes and like MovieCritic.com or whatever, like some other services as the highest rating across all three of any movie. It's the first documentary that's favored to win Best Picture. And I think it had like a blowout, like, you know, box office opening weekend, basically. Like I saw someone say that, Nathan. They're like, I don't know if this is possible for a documentary, but Nathan deserves Best Actor. OK. That's what that's what Nathan would do. You say something to him and he just goes. OK, I don't. And I also saw I think it was what's the director, Nolan? What's his name? Oppenheimer. But what's his what's his full name? Lance. And he I think I think it was him. And this was on stage at a conference years ago. And he was talking about how Nathan Fielder is amazing and that his technique for telling a story is amazing. The way that he uses angles like he was complimenting him as a director when everyone thought of him as a gag guy. And then someone reposted this and they're like, he was not joking. He was being serious. And if you see the new movie, you see exactly what he's talking about because it appears as though was there like some ways that the camera was working that helped tell the story? Yeah. I mean, most of the movie is shot like, Sam, move your face all the way up to the camera. Most of the movie is that close. Yes. Is that close? Which kind of goes to show that, you know, which kind of goes into the idea of you can see everything. I mean, and also she has this intense eye contact like she doesn't blink. And, you know, they say like, you know, the eyes are the window to the soul. And so here you are, you're that close with her. You see her eyes that wide open. And yet you walk away having. For me, at least no idea how to feel about her. It's like I saw everything and I know less than I knew at the beginning. I don't I don't know what to think. So tell me, I have questions about the voice. I have questions about if you think she did it. But where do you want to start? 30 second summary of the movie. So he moves in when they're, you know, when she's getting ready to go to jail. And first, he's literally like kind of almost like a director. He's wearing his headphones. He's behind the corner. He's like trying to stay out of the shot. So first, he's just like fly on the wall, trying to observe them. And then by the middle and end, he's now like one of the main characters in the thing, because it's like he's he becomes sucked into it. So the way the movie works is it shows her before she goes to jail and he's trying to figure out, like. Is she a good person or a huge manipulator? Like, is she misunderstood or she a master manipulator? That's a good way of putting it. Then it shows. OK, so that that's like the first kind of like half of the movie. It's like her them together beforehand. And he's trying to figure out who she is. It's trying to figure out, did she? It's not really did she do it, but he's trying to understand like her. Her POV, like, did you do you think you did something wrong? Why do you think you're going to jail? And she's like, I don't know. What did she go to jail for? And what are the the accusations that she lied? What did she lie about? I think the best way to become successful is to see how other people did it, whether you're going to copy them or just use it as inspiration, because then now you know what's possible. So starting at the age of 24, I did this relentlessly and I was very methodical about it. And I created a spreadsheet where I tracked roughly 50 people who were uber successful. And I looked at the year that they were born, the year that they started their apprenticeship, and then the year that they started the first thing that made them successful. Finally, the year that they broke through and I aggregated all this data along with the stories of what they did to be an apprentice and what they did to finally break through. And I put it together in a database and HubSpot went and found this thing that I frankly even forgot about, but it did change my life and they resurfaced it. They made it even better and they put it into a thing that you can download for free right now. So if you click the link in the description or click the QR code right here, you can see this database that I made when I was 24 and it changed my life. And so if you're looking to become successful or you're already successful and just want some more inspiration, check it out. So she's going to jail for defrauding investors, not for because she raised billions of dollars, not billions. I don't know. She's like 500 million. OK, she raised 500 million dollars on this premise that she can create a blood test that uses barely any blood. And it's revolutionary. And you can go to CVS and get for five dollars and it tells you on the spot or or quickly blood. So a drop of blood basically would go into her, her magic machine called the Edison. And she was this great inventor of this machine that would revolutionize the way the medicines are, because you could run this huge battery of tests, like hundreds of tests or whatever, on just a tiny bit of blood instead of going and getting huge blood draws. And if people could do that with just a tiny bit of blood, they would get tests more often. We would find, you know, problems before they, you know, got too far and we would be able to test for way more things. And like somehow that was supposed to be really good. Now, if you've watched the TV show and other things like that, and you've read the book Bad Blood, you know, basically what happened was the Edison machine pretty much didn't work. I think it could only do like twelve or thirteen tests out of the like hundred it claimed and that they would take the blood and they would try to go. They would be like, oh, the machine's not working. So today you got to go get more blood drawn. And they would go run it to a real machine that like was, you know, older machine, get the test and pass it off as their own. And she basically was telling investors that this works. She was telling the public that this works. She was telling partners like CVS or Walgreens that this worked. But it didn't really work. And she denies this. But what's the denial is the denial? The machine could have worked if you give him more time. So there's a key scene in the thing where it's like he's like reading her quote, he's like, you said. The fact is that we invented a machine that can do any test on blood, and that's amazing. And then she's like. Yeah, he's like, but that wasn't a fact. The machine couldn't do that. She's like, it could. And he's like, well, like in the future, it could. And she's like, the way the machine works is you put some blood in a cartridge. It goes in the machine. It goes to the cloud. The cloud will ask what test you want. And it could any test that you want. Now the machine would be able to run that test. And then he's like, but it couldn't do all that. He's like, well, we had to do the chemistry for each of those individual tests. He's like, ah, so like you were kind of saying it's. Capable of running all these tests, but it couldn't do it now. And she kind of avoids the question, like. I. I believe what I said, it's that's what I'm. And she doesn't admit any wrong. And he's like, but you see how that's confusing, right? Like when you say it can, people think that it can do it right now. And you're saying that it can. She's like, it can. And she looks at me like kind of crazy. And then, you know, and they're and also they're restarting Theranos while she's going to jail. They're like pitching investors and recruiting a team to like do it better. Now that they have AI, they're trying to do it again. And she's like, so, OK, that's one whole part of it. Second part of it is. But for the record, she has never admitted to doing anything wrong. She's confused as to why she's going to jail. OK, I don't know. Hey, anyway, he's like, did you have you like, you know, you lie. Did you lie? She's like, I've never lied. He's like, you've never lied. You've never been to a party and say, I've been like, I'm not feeling good. Can't come. But first, she's first person. He's like, you have a lie. She's like, I don't believe I have. I've always tried to tell the truth. Maybe when I was a kid. He's like, so since the age of 18, you've never lied. She's like, I thought you meant like the types of things I'm accused of. And then I cut. Right. So like one weird thing is it's he's not actually trying to get to the bottom of the thing. It's not like he's not trying to litigate the case. He's trying to figure out who is this person? And was she is she what we think she is? Is she misunderstood? And then the way the movie plays out, the best way I could describe it is I would say you leave more confused as to what the truth is. I think is that fair? Ben, would you agree with that or no? Yeah, I think I think you leave more confused. But yeah. But you also leave understanding what it's like to be deceived by her because you're like, I don't know what to believe. She did it to me, too. She did it to him. She did it to him. And the crazy thing is like it's like the unstoppable force meets the immovable object. Here you have the guy who himself creates these false realities for a living. That's all he did. The rehearsal was literally creating false realities. And but but like committing to the bit. And then you see her even while she's like going to jail. And it's so real. Shit is so real. Now you're leaving your children. You're going to be in jail for years. And she's still, in a way, committed to the bit and created it. She has this reality that's clearly false. But it's the question is, does she not realize it's false or is she that good that she makes you think she doesn't believe it's false? You know what I mean? And and the you're confused because you went in thinking she's nuts. She's a liar. She's wrong. And you left thinking she's nuts. She lied. But maybe she didn't mean it. But what are you confused about then? Well, all right. There's two two ways to look at this. One is, did she just do the Silicon Valley kind of fake it till you make a thing? Except for she got kind of caught before she could make it. And it was health care. So it was higher risk. So she kind of did the entrepreneurial thing like Elon does when he says, hey, this is going to be self-driving. We will be self-driving coast to coast by next year. But we don't look at him as this fraudster. It's just sort of this optimistic entrepreneur who's trying to build the future and pitching it. OK, that's like the very, very favorable, favorable version. Then you have this other version, which is like, no, she willingly, knowingly defrauded investors and patients. And that was really, you know, that's a messed up thing to do. And she deserves to go to jail. But like, was she the mastermind or not? And that's what the second important part of the movie is. A lot of it is about Billy, her or whatever he is, her husband or whatever. Ben or Diego, describe who is this Billy guy and what's your what do you know about him coming in versus now? I knew absolutely nothing. I had heard the name Billy, had no idea like his background, who he was. Still don't really understand who he is. Husband, boyfriend. I don't even know if he was the father of the kids. But you're telling me it's a very weird relationship. Didn't know much about him. But I think he's an asshole. That was sort of like my biggest takeaway from the he's an asshole to Holmes or to everyone else in general. I think he's just an asshole. And I was sort of telling Sean this of like, I've learned this, like there's a certain archetype where he has like this dark and curly hair. And he's probably like the third or fourth person that looks like this. And he's turned out being an asshole. But there's like this one scene in the movie where Elizabeth is like scrambling eggs and she's just like not really. She's like kind of half assing it. They're in mid conversation. Billy stops the entire conversation, goes up to her, takes the bowl out of her hand and just starts scrambling it a lot faster. Like you weren't doing this right. They're having a conversation. It just shows Billy keeps looking out of the corner of his eye to how she's whisking the eggs. But they're talking about something very important about what happened there in us. He keeps looking and then he can't resist. He just grabs it. He starts doing it. And then Nathan's like he stops the conversation. He's like doesn't keep going on the serious topic. He's like, what was what was wrong with the way she was doing it? And he's like, oh, nothing was wrong. I just, you know, I wanted to help her. And then Nathan just sits there in the silence. And then Elizabeth's like, he thinks I don't do it. He thinks I wasn't doing a good job of it. He's like, what? What do you mean? Who's that? Who's the alpha in the relationship? Well, that's kind of the way this comes. So one of the arguments that she made in her defense and that the kind of the movie tries to make is she's this innocent idealist. And she was taken advantage of at Theranos by this Sunny Balwani, the guy she was romantically dating, this like older Indian dude who she was dating for like a decade. And there's one one kind of one out for her. Is if he was the guy who's pulling the strings. OK, now they don't talk about that, but they draw this huge parallel by showing her relationship with Billy now, where he's clearly the guy pulling the strings, meaning it's his idea to do the documentary. He's kind of the one interfacing with them. There's a big part where he goes behind her back in a way like he. They reenact this scene before they. started filming where they go to their house to meet and they're talking about what this movie would be, how it would work. And she reads this like excerpt from her book that's like flowery poetry that she's writing about like her experience and they're like, cool, cool writing, you know, like nice. And then she's like, the baby starts crying, she has to go upstairs. And then Billy, now that she's gone, he's like, all right, I want to tell you about one thing, which is we want a piece of the action. We want we want a piece of the upside here. And then he was like, that's not typical in a documentary. It's not a good idea because it's sort of like blurs the ethical line of like, are you just going to be doing this for profit or do you really want your story told? In fact, isn't that one of the main things you're trying to argue is that, no, she didn't defraud these people to self enrich. She doesn't care about money. And yet you're going to ask for money out of this. And then people will question, did you do this for money? Just like that. Right. You see why that's problematic? It's like Harry and Meghan got 100 million for their documentary. So just saying we want our fair share. And so they and then they're like, well, we didn't have much leverage. So we agreed to it. And so the whole thing is and then she doesn't know that he did that or she claims to not know. We think, but we don't know. How could she not know? They're so close. They have this like crazy, like trauma bond. Did she address the voice? They didn't talk. So they didn't talk about the voice. They didn't have a lot of things. It's kind of the criticism I would have with the movie, which is like, you know, for example, under oath, she testified, she admitted that she added like the Pfizer logo to some documents when she presented to Walgreens that made it look like they had signed off on her tests, but they hadn't. And that was completely misleading and that was illegal. She admitted that, which kind of like breaks the whole premise of she doesn't really know. She doesn't lie. Like she admitted to that under oath and he doesn't bring that type of stuff up. Dude. And I think, I think that like two things aren't being mentioned and tell me if they were mentioned. I didn't follow. I didn't read the book. But I think that one of our employees killed himself because he had to testify or something like that. And he thought he was totally innocent and the pressure was like getting to him. He's like, I can't believe I got dragged in this. I think he, I think a guy committed suicide. And then I also think that there was both. Now this is, I'm not sure about this, but tell me if it's right, that some cancer patients were told they didn't have cancer and vice versa. Is that right? I don't know those two things. So I haven't looked into that much to know, but also you did learn what she'd like. What's he like? What's she like? Which is the thing you didn't know, right? Like the case has already been litigated with all the evidence that existed. If you wanted to see it, you could go see that. What you didn't know is what is she really like? And I would say you kind of got the Elizabeth Holmes experience where you're like in her weird reality distortion field and you walk away not fully knowing what to believe and what not to believe. Ben, you didn't give her a talk. What did you think about the movie, by the way? I mean, I think seeing what she's like is the question I want to know about anyone famous or in the know that you'd never get. Like, I don't know. I find the, what is the story of the company to be not that interesting, more the lens of what is she like is the most interesting thing because you never get that unless you know someone well. So how would you describe it? What's she like now that you've watched it three hours of watching her? I think she's incredibly persuasive. I think she's very engaging. It's very easy to believe her. They paint Billy in a specific way, but she doesn't see him in that way. So I would say, I mean, overall, I just thought the movie was unbelievably good, like probably the best, maybe the best movie I've ever seen in terms of entertainment. It was so good. Hey, let's take a quick break. You know that feeling when strategy is done, the brief is written, everyone's aligned and you realize someone still has to sit down and actually create all the content. That someone is usually you and it's due tomorrow. Well, the breeze assistant from HubSpot can help. It works right inside HubSpot. You can draft a campaign copy, blog posts, emails, all in your brand voice, all using your actual customer data. So you don't create just content, you create content that converts. Check out HubSpot.com, the agentic customer platform for growing businesses. Let me ask you guys this. So Sean, do you know who Roy Cohen is? No. Okay, so Roy Cohen was a very popular lawyer in New York City in the 70s and 80s. And a lot of people regarded him as like a fairly evil guy because he sued the government tons of times, but he was known as a pitbull. He was vicious. And at one point, he met this young developer who he thought was very promising and he was like, I'm going to take you under my wing and show you how to get things done in this city. And that young guy was Donald Trump. And according to a couple of books that I've read about him, a lot of people say Donald Trump sort of changed after hanging out with Roy Cohen because he learned the rules of power. And one of his, Roy Cohen's biographer made a list of six rules that they noticed Roy went through. And I don't know if Roy actually wrote these down, but they were some of the rules. The first rule was never apologize or admit wrongdoing ever. Always counterattack and always with greater force than you received. Use the legal system as a weapon, not as a thing for justice. Manipulate the media ruthlessly. Use fear both as a shield and a sword. And the last one was build a fortress of loyalty around yourself. And the biography was like, these are like six rules that we have noticed repeatedly Roy Cohen used. And he's kind of an interesting guy to study because he came from nothing and became very powerful and Trump worked with him. And so my question to you is, did you notice anything about like the laws of human nature where you're like, this is interesting? Not that you're going to replicate it, but like, was this interesting? This is interesting. So he is using this rule to manipulate and take control. See, when you say that, that makes perfect sense. And that lines up with Trump and whatnot. And actually, even Ben, when you were saying she's very persuasive, the crazy thing about the movie is that I expected her to be this kind of charismatic, maybe like kind of egomaniac, maybe very charming, maybe very compelling, maybe very persuasive, but you've got to have your guard up because she's going to kind of hit you with such, you know, oh, I can see why people fell for her. She's completely disarming is her style. So she doesn't try to convince you of anything. She doesn't like turn it on. She's not the center of attention. She's the opposite. It's like the whole thing is like, she's just like, I don't know. I don't know what to tell you. I don't know. But then you're like, wait, is this some nine dimensional chest where she's so disarming that I am disarmed and that like in the subtle thing works because she was so seemingly uninterested in charming you or presenting anything like she doesn't wear makeup. Oh, there's movies called. You can see everything. Like, you know what I mean? Yeah. There's one moment when they like kind of somewhere an hour in where they show her watching the dropout, which is this like fictional show made about her that is on Hulu. And they show kind of two or three ridiculous scenes and you're just obviously agreeing that's not how she is. And I think that's a good example of like where you're at mentally in the movie, like, oh, she would never do that. That's so far off that sound like, oh, I couldn't see her doing that. So kind of the genius of the movie is, you know, her argument is I've been portrayed as this monster. That's not me. And then other people say, no, you are a monster. And then, you know, one other argument is that maybe so, you know, they're kind of saying the media is a bit of a monster because they made me look like a monster, which is not true. The media tells these untruths. And then another defense is like, well, maybe she wasn't the monster. Maybe Sonny was the monster. Billy's the monster. And then another is, no, she's the ultimate monster because of all that. And the way the movie works is he kind of shows that it's all true. Everybody's guilty. So it's like Billy, definitely manipulative, comes across like a complete asshole. You know, he's the biggest kind of loser and I would say in the film at the same time, one of the things he does halfway through. So she goes to jail. So it's like, how are you going to do this documentary? Because she's in jail now. You can't even see her on camera. Can't hear her audio. Nothing. Well, one of the things that Nathan Fielder is famous for is recreating sets, reenactments, hyper realistic reenactments. For example, like one of his shows, this guy is going to have a difficult conversation breaking up with his girlfriend. So he recreates, he builds to the inch, the same bar that that guy's going to go to, hires paid actors who have studied the patrons of that bar just so he can go in and feel what it's going to be like to have that awkward conversations like this, like over the top. He did this thing where he's like he studied pilots and how if you go listen to the black box footage, which he spent years doing, he learned that the number one root cause of crash plane crashes is that there's this weird social dynamic between the captain and the copilot and that the copilot might notice something is wrong with the captain's doing something wrong, but they're afraid to mention it. They mentioned it too late. And when they mentioned it, the captain slaps them down and then they don't say anything, literally flying to their death. And he's like, that's so crazy. So I want to understand the social dynamic, but he can't, you know, go where the pilots go in an airport. So he recreates the Denver airport to the T like with the TSA and he walks through and he's observing how the pilots sit in the lounge beforehand and he's watching them. It's like this absurd methodology he has. Okay. So in this movie, he goes and he brings hit the halfway through the movie. When she goes to jail, he brings the actress who played her in the movie. Suddenly she's in this, in this movie or who played her in the Hulu series, Amanda, uh, whatever cyphered or something, something like that. I don't know what her last name is. So he brings her in and he shows her the footage that we've been seeing in the first half of the movie. And she watches it, has the same reaction we just had. So now it's like inception. And then basically you see that in a way she's kind of guilty too. She's extremely judgment, quick to judge her. And then she sees Elizabeth's reaction to watching the series for the first time and how she's portrayed and how painful that was to watch. And then she feels really guilty, but she's like, no, like everybody knows this is TV. Like it's fiction. It's like, well, that's a lie, right? Fiction is a lie. So it's like, you're mad at her for being a lot, but you, you know, you're obviously telling fiction and it's, has a pretty big impact on the way the world sees her and her. And then she gets really defensive about it, but he's not attracting, he's not attacking her either. He just, he lets it all unfold as the movie goes on. And so you see that like, yeah, I guess they're kind of guilty too for the way they did it. The New York times reporting where it was like, she says this thing where she says like, that's not me. That's a character I created. And she's like, I didn't say that. And the New York times like, well, we don't have record that you said it, but we stand by our journalist. It's like, well, that was pretty important that, you know, that, that thing. So the whole thing is kind of, and then the, kind of the, the cherry on top is that like Nathan himself, the, by the end of the movie, the actress calls into question, well, Nathan, like, are you also like kind of, have you fallen under her spell? Like, are you not telling me everything because maybe at some level you are trying to protect her too? And he's like, why would you say that I'm doing that? And then there's like this like key scene and the whole thing that won't make sense to unpack. But it's the scene of them in the ocean together that like, was a callback to the beginning of the movie. That's like, ah, kind of damning. And then you're like, well, God damn it. I walked out of this thing. We all got, we all got duped by everybody. What were her parents like? What was she like as a kid? Well, they show them, her parents showed up. Her mom didn't say too much. There was a hilarious part where it's the morning where she's going to go to jail and it's her, Billy's there, kids are there, her parents are there. And Nathan comes in and he gives her a gift like before she goes to jail and the kind of a gag gift. And he ends up gifting her like something to like change her hair color and sunglasses like in case you want to make a run for it this morning, like I gave you everything that you could afford. His parents are there. He's like, I realize now in this situation, it might be a bad taste, but it's, it's, it's a wig and hair coloring, glasses and hair coloring in case you want to flee. But I, I understand that that might not be appropriate right now. I'm going to go to my car for a little bit, and he goes and sits in his car. It would make me feel sad for the kids too. Like because they're showing her kids and it would manipulate me into thinking. Right before she's going to jail, she's like, she's like, tells Billy, she's like, I left milk in the fridge. And then she just like starts crying, right? Because she's like not going to be able to, you know, breastfeed her kid who they showed her doing that many times now. And she's going to jail for an unknown period of time. What when does she get out? 10 years. So it's a 10 year sentence. I think she's supposed to get out in four or something, right? She's getting out this year, I think, like or in the next year. And what does it say? What she was like in prison? Well, they don't, they don't know, they don't say, and you can't, they can't show it. So, you know, they talk about how, like, she gets like two minutes of phone time and they talk about some of like, the difficulties of life there. There's this funny scene where they're in the kitchen and remember how Billy made like an AI recreation of Elizabeth Holmes, like right before she went to prison, they like did this whole thing, like went somewhere, did like a photo shoot, and they were able to create like an AI version of Elizabeth Holmes. And basically it got to the point where like, he could make her say anything. Yeah. So they show Billy being like, this kind of super controlling. He loves her, but he's controlling and it might not be in her best interest, but she loves him so devotionally that she's okay with it. And like, maybe that's how she was at Theranos with Sonny and maybe that's why. So basically he's sitting there at his dinner table. There's the AI giant monitor of her just sitting there fake next to him. Oh my God. A three foot long Komodo dragon on the table, which I guess is his like pet dragon. Once she got, once she went to jail, he's got this like crazy pet dragon. And and he's talking about how he has power of attorney. So they're like, how is she tweeting? And he's like, well, like, you know, she, she has internet access, but it's only email. And like, so how is she tweeting? It's like, well, you know, it's me physically typing it, but she sends it to me. It's like, so she tells you like, tweet this. It's like, well, no, she doesn't have to tell me. I know. I know her. So what we're like this, like we're, we're one and they're like, well, that's pretty messed up. You're posing as her. People don't know. That's you saying it. Not her. He's like, well, it's, I know what she would want to say. And they're like, you see how that's like messed up. Right. And he's treating me like all this Chrome stuff and what? Holmes DMed me once. Well, I didn't know who it was. Read it. I can't. I can't. So this is the, so the background of this is like, there was like a controversy where people were like giving me shit and I like replied and I'm like, no, this is not true. This here's the truth. And he replied and it said, he goes, um, you handled that exceedingly well. And I said, I don't like reading that. I said, LOL. It makes me sound like a little girl, but I said, LOL, thank you. But I can't decide if I want you to think that I handled that well or not, but thank you. Yeah. Dude. This is the core of the movie. All right, then it's crying, laughing. All right, I'll read it. Crying, laughing emoji, back to you. And then you say, I'm being serious. And then your response was perfect. Passion and humility. And then? That's it. I didn't say anything. What's at the bottom there? There's a blue box. There's something at the bottom there. Something you maybe didn't want us to see, but it's you can see everything, Knight. No, it just said, thank you. That was it. That was the end of the conversation. And then I said, is this really Elizabeth Holmes? Who is this? And no one replied. My question is, where do you stand on this? This is one of those movies that I think you almost have to like let it sit. You have to like digest it. I think in two weeks where I'll sit on this is so different than, you know, 12 hours later, which is where I am right now. Is it just that she went to prison? Is it just? Yeah, yeah. I think so. Once I like go read the like, I asked Chachapiti. I was like, what is the strongest damning evidence? So here's what it said. I said, what is the strongest damning evidence that Elizabeth Holmes committed fraud at their notice? And it basically says, here's the strongest one. She personally doctored the Pfizer reports. At trial, she admitted that she personally added pharmaceutical company logos. Pfizer representatives testified they did not. Walgreens testified that the documents made them believe Pfizer had authored those reports. Okay, next one. They staged fake demonstrations for investors. So they were told they're invited to use the blood testing machines. They sometimes ran a null protocol and appeared to be processing blood, but they actually weren't. They were secretly being tested on conventional machines manufactured by other companies. And the investors believed they had just witnessed breakthrough technology. She knew the machines were failing, but kept telling investors that they worked. Of the 300 small sample assays that were developed by them, only 12 were ever run on their own machines. Other tests were performed on third-party equipment. She claimed they were used on battlefields and they weren't, which was just directly not true. And then, this is more of the founder one. She projected $230 million of revenue and actual income was 1.94. So yeah, I think that's the least one. Is Billie rich? How does Billie make a living? So she's in debt, right? She'll never get out of this. But how do they survive? It comes up in the movie. He's like, were you ever concerned that she was lying to you? And he's like, no, what does she have to gain from me? He's like, well, your family's really rich, right? Didn't his family start the fair, I forget which hotel, a hotel chain? Yeah, they started a bunch of hotels. So his defense was like, well, I mean, my family did well, but there's levels to wealth. And so, he's kind of well off. Then, I think this movie was going to pay them. That was kind of the hope, was that he would make money off this movie. In the end, he, after Nathan kind of pushes, and that's a big plot of the movie, is this thing about that. He tells Elizabeth, did you know that Billie asked us for money? And then, she kind of dodges the question a little bit. In the end, he took it back and didn't ask for points on the movie. This sounds like a huge, huge win for Holmes. Because before, everyone thought this woman's evil. There's nothing here. And now, at least people think maybe, we're not sure, or it's complicated. And also, I've seen so many smart people say this is one of the greatest movies they have ever seen. If we did a biggest winners and losers, I would say, Ben, who's the biggest winner in this whole thing? Nathan Fielder, I think. I think Nathan Fielder goes from well-known in a small group of people to going to be massively famous now, probably. And he did his life's work. His schtick, like lock and key, found the perfect lock for his unique key that he is. So, I think Nathan, biggest winner. Second is Elizabeth. I mean, I would have said second's A24, just another win on A24's notch and another massive hit. If this is A24, if they don't do this movie, they're still A24. For her, for her and Nathan, this is life-changing. Because at least now, she can go in the speaker circuit. Now, A16Z can back her next round, you know, when she comes out of prison. Yeah, exactly. So, I think she's the biggest winner. I think biggest loser is Billie. Has to be Billie. I think kind of next biggest loser is the actress. But maybe I'm alone in that. Did you feel that way? No, I mean, I personally didn't, but I think she had a lot of backlash online. Like, I think a lot of people said she came out as like too judgmental and stuff like that. Well, she was like, this is before she even met him. This is literally just off of like watching the pre-cut. Before Amanda met Nathan. No, no, before Amanda met Billie, she's watching with Nathan the like pre-cut, like the, whatever, the rough cut of the movie. And then she's like talking to him about where to from here. And she's like, I wish you could just dig up some dirt on him. He's like, on who? She's like, Billie. He's like, you want me to dig up dirt on Billie? Why? She's like, to like break them up. And show like, you know, what he's, he's like, you want me to break them up? She's like, yeah, I wouldn't want any woman to be with a guy like that. It's like such a like, kind of like, kind of understand the perspective, but like, whoa, you're not supposed to say that out loud. You know, there's cameras here, right? Like, wait, what are you saying? And she, there was also this incredible scene where they go to his house. Elizabeth's in jail while they're hanging. And he's like, can I bring like, whatever her name is, Amy, Amanda. Can I bring Amanda? And, and Billie's like, yeah. And she's like, does he know I'm coming? And is he okay with that? And like, did he ask why? He's like, not really. So they go and it's like, Billie, the kids, and Amanda on a couch and Nathan over in the corner, like usual, creeping. And then Elizabeth calls from prison. And then Billie's like, hey, we're, you know, the kids are going to go say goodnight in a second. And Amanda's here. And then Amanda's like, oh, no, you only have two minutes. I don't wanna, you have a beautiful family. She doesn't know what to say. And she's panicking and she's like, feels just cringe in her body, like convulsing. And then they like, kids go to sleep. And you can tell they kind of are drinking for a little while. And basically shit gets a little loose. So Billie is just like, I'm gonna burn all these MRF-ers to the ground. And they're like, what, who? He's like, everyone. He's like, everyone? And he's like, I got vengeance in my heart. And I'm smart, I'm strategic. I'm smarter than all them. But yeah, I'm gonna, I'm gonna, I'm gonna take them out. And then he's like, they'll get, you know, they don't know what I'm capable of. And then he's like, like harming them. And he's like, yeah. And then it's like kind of weird. So he's like kind of outs himself as being somewhat evil. And then she, she starts kind of pushing back on, or no, he's pushing back on her. Like he's saying, he's talking about like the people who did the Hulu show, the showrunners, evil people. And then she's like kind of trying to defend it. And he's like, you know, she lied. And he's like, you're an actress. You know, that's good. You're a fake for a living. And then she gets defensive and it's kind of, they go back and forth. And it's pretty, and then there's like the car afterwards where she's reacting to like how much she hates him. And it's like clear that like, it's personal for her. And she's pretty judgmental. And so, you know, I feel like everybody is guilty in this movie. Have you ever been to someone's house and like seeing how they live? Like I've been to like a couple's house and see their kids and I'm like shocked where they say there's like levels to wealth. There's levels to like athletics. And then there's like different levels of like weirdness. And it's like, these people live so differently from me. I can't even, it's hard to even empathize. Like I've met like a couple before and like their kid like boss them around. And it was like, oh, well, our kid said that he doesn't want to do this. So we're just not going to do this. And I remember thinking, I'm like, that is crazy. That is crazy people do that. But there's like more extremes where you're like you'll meet someone and you're like, your kids are 10. They don't go to school. They got long hair. You believe in like, it's like crazy that people think that way. And it's not necessarily, I say crazy, but crazy in the sense of like, it's so unique and different from how I would do it, not necessarily right or wrong. But you see it, there's like different levels of how people live. This seems like one of those experiments where you're like, I believe these people actually believe this. I believe that they live this way. And that is so odd in the sense of like, that is just so far from what the average person would be like. But I also believe that what they're doing is true to them. And they act like this, even when there aren't cameras around. And that's crazy how people get caught in this vortex. This is their reality. And their reality is bizarre for the rest of us. Yeah, like for example, I've hung out with a couple of comedians before. And I'm like, they are funny all the time. Like they cannot be serious. Like I've never seen them act serious, even in the most serious situations. Like if there was a hostage situation or if they were dying of cancer, they would be cracking jokes. And that's just so different from how I would ever react at the situation. But it's not a shtick. People are just, they're strange. Or like when you see like a celebrity, like sing acapella, like a singer, you're like, oh my God, this is crazy. Even when they don't use autotune, they're the best. This is crazy that this talent exists. It's sort of like when you see this movie, you're like, I can't believe that this type of wild attitude truly exists. And it's real. They actually are like that. Yeah, definitely felt that way. Ben, what do you think of that? Yeah, Sam asked when I thought, my overall thought is you gotta go see the movie. Like I think you gotta go see this movie. I'll pay for your ticket right now. I'll have my instinct book it for you to go in an hour. Dude, my wife is going on Wednesday and she was like, I'm going without you because I told her I couldn't sit through a three hour movie and I just texted her. I said, get a babysitter. I'm going. Daddy's coming. Yeah, I think they believe what they're saying. I think, yeah, they're just so much different than normal people are. And that's kind of, but I think that's what it takes to build a multi-billion dollar company, even if it was fake, right? You gotta be crazy. I don't think that's what it takes. I think that is a version of what it could take. Baby, the better way to say it is like, if that was the outcome, you shouldn't be shocked by what you see, you know how they are. Yeah, I agree. That's awesome. All right, you guys have convinced me to see the movie now. Because it is super long, right? Yeah, it's very long. It's weird because in the middle of the movie, I'm like, how long is this movie? And then it ends so abruptly that I was like, I need more. I didn't, you can't end there. I need more finality and conclusion on this. So that was at least my feeling at the end. Today's podcast is brought to you by my friends at Mercury. They make the world's best banking product. I think you know this already. I use Mercury for all of my businesses. I think I have like maybe seven or eight businesses. We use Mercury as our business banking across all of them. And now they actually just launched a personal bank account. So I have my personal account there. I moved off of Wells Fargo and Chase. I'm just all in on Mercury. Why? I like products that are easy to use. I like products that get me and the problems that I have. So like very easy to make a joint account with my wife. Very easy to spin up virtual cards. One click and I get savings yield. It just has all the stuff that I need in one place. So if you're looking for the best banking product on the market, it's definitely Mercury. I will fist fight anybody who disagrees with me on that. Go to mercury.com slash personal and learn more. Mercury is a FinTech, not an FDIC insured bank. Banking services are provided through Choice Financial Group in column NA, members FDIC. Can we just end with, I just want to know for Ben and Diego, like what are your, what were the moments of genius or the best part that you remember? Like what was, what are you like still, what's still like burned into your mind, you know, a day later or your, you know, give me your favorite things that stood out. I mean, I think the reenactments were just great. Like even just reenacting the entire prison scene. So basically he goes to visit Elizabeth Holmes in prison. Can't bring cameras in. What does he do? The next best thing, which is recreate the entire prison, the whole inside, have the guards, have like fake prisoners coming in. The vending machines. Yeah, the vending machines, everything. I just thought the reenactments, I thought the storytelling was A plus. I can't wait for Nathan's next big thing. But yeah, those are sort of my big takeaways. What about you, Ben? The production budget was only five to $7 million. I would say the way Nathan Fielder asks questions where you're like, oh, that's like, I wouldn't ask that or I'd be uncomfortable asking it. And he just asks straight up whether it's big or small. He just stands there and asks and sits with the uncomfortability. Somebody said he has a weaponized awkwardness at a level nobody's seen before, meaning he's willing to sit in it just as long as you are. And the weird thing is she's the only one to ever match his crazy on that. What's an example, Ben, of like a question they would, because I thought in some ways, yes, he says things that are very like blunt, but a lot of times I'm like, ask the follow-up. Ask directly, ask the thing directly. He doesn't do it. A lot of the times when he asks directly, Billy, at least in the first half, like pulls them out of the room. He's like, oh, we gotta go. So he'll be like, oh, tell me. Yeah, he'll ask a question of like, we gotta go before they answer. I mean, this is a small one, but he stays in the house and they put out a bed frame. And I just remember him being like, wait, so do you sleep on bed frame? You know, he was like, is there a bed? Because there was no mattress. And I just thought even that question alone, the way he asked it was good. I liked the use of Amanda Seyfried because I thought she was kind of saying what people were thinking a lot. And I didn't, yeah, she was judgmental, but I do think it was like a very meta thing. That's how a normal person watching would act, right? Yeah, it was very meta to bring her in who seemed very normal in the way she was thinking about it. So it helped me understand. It took someone less autistic in the room and she was like normal and she was just asking normal questions to help you process it. I think, you know, I just wanted more. Like I left wanting way more. I've tried to listen to like eight podcasts after this and none of the podcasts have delivered yet. And what I'm looking for, like I'm looking for an intellectual conversation to help me process. I read like two hours of Reddit till like 2 a.m. the night after I watched it. I'm just looking for the like post game conversation, which hopefully after Sam sees it, this can deliver on again. The first 80% of this is just Sean telling you what happened so I wanna hear the post game. It'd be cool to have Tim Draper on. Tim Draper is, I've never talked to him, but he seems like a pretty great guy and he was one of the original champions of Elizabeth Holmes. It'd be interesting to hear his perspective because he got burned the hardest in terms of, I think financially he got burned the hardest. So Ben, if we wanted to give you what you wanted, which is the, let's do it. What do you wanna hear? I mean, honestly, I was like, I should go book this movie to go see it in an hour and take notes. all the things that I'm, like, go rewatch it with a notepad, because I, you know, just take notes of the stuff I'm noticing, because I just want to hear, I want to hear you guys break down what you thought without retelling it for people that have seen it, and like, oh, this was interesting for this reason, or like, I disagreed with, like, here's my interpretation of what was happening. We just get done doing a 50-minute podcast, and Ben ends with, well, what do you want? And Ben goes, eh. Not that. You're not really delivering. I mean, for the first 40 minutes, if you saw the movie, it's like Sean's telling you his version. It's, you know, obviously gonna be slightly worse than the movie, you know, no offense. True, true. The movie has all this spectacle where you're feeling how she is, and you have to feel how she talks, you know? The trailer was one of the greatest trailers I've ever seen. I saw the trailer, I think it was for- The trailer was the greatest trailer I've ever seen. I think I saw it, I think I saw it originally when I was watching the Odyssey, or I don't remember where, but it, like, it got more publicity. Oh, you saw it in theater? I saw the, I think it was, I think they had the trailer there at the Odyssey, but it could have been on, I don't remember, but I remember it's, like, wherever I was, it was, it was, it was nutty. If I had seen that trailer out of nowhere when I was at a movie theater, that would have been so electric. That would have been absolutely electric. I mean, it was electric on my Twitter timeline, which is just not the same as being in a theater, and then suddenly this, like, pattern interrupt happens of the, because I've never seen a trailer like that, right? It's completely different in style. It was so unsettling. And you don't even know that this movie was being made, so you're like, is this, is that her? That's her, what's happening? And then it zooms out and she's rocking the baby, and you see how close they were in this tiny room, and you're like, oh my God, unbelievable. I'll put it this way, my, my, like, K-factor, I've texted, like, 15 people if they have to go see this movie, like, Sean was supposed to see it on Saturday, didn't, and I was like, dude, you gotta see it, like, I don't know what you're doing, you gotta go see it. In New York, it was, when did it come out, on Saturday? And tickets were impossible to get for the first six days or four days. My favorite things, the things I thought were genius, my favorite scenes, the egg mixing scene I thought was so good, that's like such a show-not-tell of an entire relationship dynamic. I thought the scene talking with her dad at the beginning and then Billy tries to interrupt and tries to cut that off. I thought the who's on first scene, the who's on first thing was just so good. I can't believe we haven't talked about that yet. Do you think that was legit? Do you think she genuinely doesn't understand? Or do you think that was like a, she was playing type of thing? Like, in my- Again, I don't know, I don't know, that's the thing. I mean, on that scene, I was like, if someone asked me- What was the scene? If someone asked me what to say- We're not explaining stuff to you anymore, Sam, Ben didn't like that. But if someone asked me what to say, I would've been, I also would've been like, I don't, I understand what's happening, but I don't know how to tell you what's happening. At first, when she was explaining it, he's like, why, do you get why that's funny? And what she said, I thought was passable. But when he goes, what's the guy's name on first? And she goes, I don't know. And she's like, who? His name is who? And he's like, she's like, I didn't get that. And I'm like, what? That part broke my brain. Was she just like a smart, dumb person? Well, at that point in the movie, at that point in the movie, you're like, oh, she's just a ditz, like she just doesn't, yeah, maybe generously a smart, dumb person or just a dumb, dumb person when you watch that part. However, and you can, on top of that, you're like, you know, when he's accusing her of like, you know, when he's like, do you see why that's misleading? She's like, no, I don't. And you're like, okay. You know, at that point, you're like, maybe she's just a liar, she's in denial. When the who's on first thing happens, you're like, are you just off? So I thought that was just an unbelievable tool or mechanism to, again, like just introduce, plant these seeds of doubt. That the movie was genius because you go into the documentary expecting it to clarify and tell you what to think. And instead, it just weaves all these paths that you can go down and show you how little you know, rather than knowing more coming out, which is amazing. It's like, I mean, that's the irony of the thing called, you can see everything. It's like, there's a second sentence on top of that. You can see everything and still not know. And it's like, that's the mind of the whole movie is that seeing everything won't tell you what you think you'll get out of seeing everything. So I thought that was great. I thought watching the dropout was just, again, amazing the way they did it. The way he's got the small laptop on a bed together with them. And she's having that reaction and he's just letting it sit. So good. I thought all the reenactments were perfect because it's like this odd skill that Nathan has trained for 15 years. That was actually the perfect tool for doing a documentary about somebody who's in jail and you can't show them or see them. It's like, you need the reenactment for it to work. So I thought that was good. We haven't mentioned the random dick drop in the first 10 minutes of the movie. Who's dick? The most shocking thing. You're there in their house and it's this like, family scene, it's her, it's the kids, it's awkward, but you know. And then it's just Billy's schlong. Billy's, and then Billy's in the, and it just shows it, it just zooms up from there and you see it's Billy and you're like, and it's just so crazy. And it's like, that's the first time you start to realize like, oh, Billy himself might be a bit of a schlong himself. And then you're like, wow, they really, you can see everything. Wow, this actually is a level of transparency that's shocking. And then you realize he's agreeing to that, signing up and why would he do that? What kind of psycho would agree to that? Obviously that has nothing to do with showing Liz in a new light. Why would he ever agree to that? And that question alone is like so damning. Why would he have let them do that? All right, I'm sold. I'll go see it. What's it out of 10? Wrap up there. It has to be a 10. It has to be a 10. Is that good? I mean, it's 10. Is there any other movie where I'm like, yo, I gotta do a movie, movie debrief. It's a 10. Okay, that alone is like the evidence. You can't, it's on a different axis. It's not, it was not the most entertaining or most enjoyable thing to watch. It's not the most satisfying movie, but it's an astonishing movie. It's astonishing. How do you do this in secrecy? Because he's been doing stuff leading up to this. Like I see him like, he was like a fringe guy. Like I've seen just like a handful of like viral clips and it seems like he's been doing stuff. So how do you create- I said we kept a very tight circle because one of the problems was if people knew what he was doing or what he was talking about, it would have kind of spoiled the movie. So he had to keep it very, very tight. They said like maybe like 30 people knew about the film altogether. Like it was like a very tight circle. One thing that's crazy is Brian Johnson did a Q&A right afterwards, supposedly in LA with Billy. And I'm trying to, I DMed a bunch of people to try and call them and ask what he said afterwards because it's off the record. But Brian Johnson did a Billy Q&A on Friday. Dude, why would Billy do a Q&A right after a documentary where they're shown his dick and they make him look bad? You need to understand Billy by watching the movie. Then you'll know why he did it. The man that is Billy. Billy is not you and you're not Billy is what you have to understand. Ben, give me the final verdict on your belief that Elizabeth Holmes was a knowing, was knowingly committing fraud, like conning. Like she was in on it. There's too much evidence that she knew. I think she maybe, she didn't know everything, but she definitely was complicit and was a part of some of it. She definitely knew. She knew or she did it? Two different things. She definitely did it. Okay, if she did it and she knew, and maybe she didn't do all of it, but she was in the loop and was on board with all of it. Then if that's true, then what do you make of how she acted in the movie? I think she didn't believe it was fraud. I think it was fraud, but she didn't interpret it that way. And the way she did it to hit the big mission or like to solve the problem, but because she was trying to solve this big problem, she didn't view it as fraud. She viewed it as doing whatever it took to ultimately get there. The means justified the ends. Yes, that's how, I think she told herself that story. It wasn't, it's kind of like the line between, the line between crime and hustle is thinner than people think in the startup world. Yeah, and she told herself that what she was doing was hustle and that's what it was going to take to build this generational company and not fraud. I'm with you on that. I think that she knew what was going on, meaning she wasn't out of the loop. It wasn't being done behind her back by other people. She knew what was going on and was complicit in it. She didn't see it as fraud or illegal or harming anybody. She saw it as being determined, strong-willed, fake it till you make it, find a way to keep the thing going because you're going to succeed and change the world for better when you do it. That's my belief about her after watching this and hearing about her before this. But it was fraud. She just didn't think of it in that context. Correct. In my opinion. All right, well, thanks, boys. I wanted a spoiler, I got a spoiler, and I'm still going to go see it now. All right, that's it. That's it, that's the pod. ♪ I feel like I can rule the world ♪ ♪ I know I can be what I want to ♪ ♪ I put my all in it like no days off on the road ♪ ♪ Let's travel never looking back ♪ All right, let's take a quick break. I want to tell you about Marketing School. It is a podcast that is part of the HubSpot Podcast Network and it is run by Neil Patel and Eric Hsu and these guys are both marketers who are running businesses. And so if you want real world tactics from practitioners who are actually out there in the field doing it, this is the podcast for you. Check it out wherever you get your podcasts.