Tyler Perry on Forgiving His Father, Building an Empire, and The #1 Secret to His Success

Key Takeaway

Turn a painful or persistent experience into a daily practice of release rather than a source of fuel. Tyler Perry describes forgiveness as something he had to apply every day until his words, feelings, and actions aligned. Today, name one resentment that is draining your attention, write what you are ready to stop carrying, and choose one response that reflects the person you want to become—not the hurt you experienced.

Episode Overview

Tyler Perry tells Guy Raz how curiosity, faith, persistence, and a direct relationship with his audience helped him build an entertainment empire outside traditional Hollywood channels. He reflects on transforming childhood trauma through writing and forgiveness, using live audiences as real-time research, and protecting periods of deep creative focus while making more room for fatherhood and joy.

Full Transcript

Transcript of Tyler Perry on Forgiving His Father, Building an Empire, and The #1 Secret to His Success from How I Built This. Auto-generated from episode audio; may contain minor errors.

I haven't forgiven my father. He and I had a terrible argument, and I shouted into the phone, "I forgive you." I shouted it to him. It was like something changed inside me, and then everything around me changed. The show just took off. Hello, this is Guy Raz and the Great Creators program. Here I speak with some of the most incredible actors, performers, and musicians of our time. And today we have a guest, screenwriter, director, producer, actor, and entertainment mogul Tyler Perry. Tyler Perry is one of the most prolific artists of his generation.

His creative output is simply stunning. He wrote 24 feature films , 20 plays, 17 TV shows, two bestselling books, and did it all his own way, effectively bypassing Hollywood. He built a huge media empire in Atlanta, and Tyler managed to achieve all of this by focusing on building his own audience. So, today on the program— how Tyler Perry's incredible mind works. I hope you enjoy our conversation. Let's talk a little about your past. Many have seen the documentary about your life and know it , but for those who haven't —you grew up there.

If someone met you at 14 or 15 , they probably wouldn't be able to imagine or predict who you would become. But I guess you must have been a pretty ambitious teenager, there must have been a fire inside you that you at least knew about. Yes, I think that's fair. I was also very curious. I asked questions and I needed answers. If my mother or father said, "Oh, you can't do that." And when I asked "why," they would say, "Because you're poor, or because you're black, or because it's for white people." "This is not for you ." Or something like that.

I'm talking about parents who grew up in the Jim Crow South and believed that there were only certain things and places they could achieve in life . So I was always against that idea. I believed that there were more opportunities in the world , and that where I came from or the color of my skin didn't mean I couldn't achieve great things. So yes, it's safe to say that I had a tremendous amount of hope and faith that the conditions I lived in, everything that surrounded me and what I was going through, would not be my existence forever.

I know your dad worked in construction, and I read about how, as a teenager, you watched him build houses for $800, and the property owner, usually a white guy, would sell that house for $80,000. And you thought, "Why doesn't my dad handle this part of the business, right?" Ahem. How do you... it's just unbelievable for any teenager to think that way , and I wonder if you could go back to that time in your life and try to understand where that train of thought even came from.

You know, it was just common sense to me . It just seemed absurd to me . Even watching him build rental properties for other people, get paid, and go home . I said, "Why don't you and your mom try doing the same thing?" " Try owning your own real estate and renting it out ." For them it was something completely foreign. I finally got them to do it after I became a little successful. That's when they started doing it and really enjoying it . They bought a house that had, you know, two halves, and they were getting about $700 a month in rent for it.

And they thought it was the best thing in the world —that they came up with it themselves, even though I had been asking them to do it for a long, long time. But I wish I could tell you that there was something I saw, or someone around me, that told me there was more waiting for me, or that I could succeed, but there was nothing like that in my area. If you were successful in my area, you were either a preacher, a drug dealer, or a pimp.

So what I saw for myself was significantly higher than the level of a pimp or a drug dealer, that's for sure . Tell us a little bit about New Orleans as a place, okay? It would have an impact on how you saw the world. I mean, many years ago I interviewed the Marsalis brothers, you know, they're such a talented family. I'm thinking about New Orleans. I think about them and the culture they grew up in, around music and the pursuit of education. There was a certain discipline in their family , and I'm curious what New Orleans meant to you growing up.

Yes, I think Hurricane Katrina literally blew the roof off the poverty that was there , and I look at a lot of people who were in dire straits after the storm and the levees broke. These were the people I could identify with , they were more like people I knew than the Marsalises, for whom, you know, education and music came first. You know , I was still very young. I first encountered brutal racism while working at a hotel in New Orleans. I walked Bourbon Street from end to end, saw people of all races and nations, and heard all kinds of music.

It was a wonderful melting pot of music and chemistry , but at the same time very dangerous. Tourists coming to the city or to Mardi Gras saw these beautiful mansions along St. Charles Avenue, from where the streetcar took them all the way to Bourbon Street, but we lived two blocks from those mansions, and it was better not to go there. And if you walked another four blocks , you entered the slums, which were even more dangerous. It was, to put it mildly, a facade, because tourists saw a beautiful, wonderful place, but behind it were rather difficult times.

You talked a lot about your relationship with your father, of course, with your mother, and about physical abuse, right? Your father was, to put it mildly , a difficult man. You know, so many of the people who were on this show are children of actors, or if they're not children of actors, they're famous people, you know a lot of them. If they weren't the children of actors, they were the kind of kids who were already acting in local theaters at the age of five, and performing on stage and in high school at the age of seven.

And that wasn't the case around you. You didn't have that access. No. No, not at all. Do you remember yourself as a teenager who wanted to do art or be a part of that world in some way? I got accepted to a school called, no, New Orleans, New Orleans Creative Arts School. Uh, but to go to this school , to be a part of it , you had to go to your regular high school for half a day, and it seems Harry Connick Jr. went there too .

You had to be at your high school for half the day, and the other half of the day you went to a creative arts school. But we were required to wear leggings because there were dance classes in leggings . In order for me to get there on time for class, I would have to leave my school in the ghetto in leggings and walk to this school. I thought: you guys must be joking. No way, with my height of 188 cm, I will not ride the tram to that other school in leggings.

So I was interested, but leggings forced me to choose a different path. I would have gotten a good beating on the way from one school to another if I had done it back then, in that city. Where did this attraction to theater or art come from? I mean, where did that come from? I realized very early on that I had the power to make my mother smile and laugh. Despite all the hell and pain she went through. Uh , I could come in and do a parody of one of her friends she was playing cards with, or a family member, and she would start laughing, and it would lift her spirits.

So I think that was the spark of understanding: If I can make my mom laugh and get out of this pain faster, then that's what I wanted to do. So I think it was definitely the same train platform where I was waiting for the train to board and leave. Obviously, this is an early foreshadowing of the media, which we will get to later. Uh oh , no, no, we're not reaching the media. Just a quick one, me, me, me. I wonder if anyone ever said to you, Tyler, you have something when you were in high school, or did anyone ever say you have this spark?

No. You should...No. No one ever said: you have talent. No, no, no, no, no. I don't remember any teacher or anyone saying anything like that. And some of the memories I have of teachers at school , they weren't pleasant. Well, some of the things I was told, I remember telling one teacher that I wanted to be a millionaire. And, uh, in front of the whole class, he said, “Oh, that’s never going to happen. This will never happen. The system is against black boys. " You will never become a millionaire." And, you know, hearing it from him, seeing the kids look around and think, “What?

What was that? And there was a voice in my head that said it wasn't true. This is not true. You can do whatever you want. That's pretty amazing, right? Because it requires a certain level of self-motivation, but I also think it's just luck to have that type of personality. There's just something about you that allowed you to actually not believe it. Also, you know, I grew up with my grandfather and great-grandfather who were priests, and my great-great- grandfather was also a priest, and my mother took me to church every Sunday.

And in church we heard about faith, about how God works miracles, how God intercedes for the disadvantaged, how He parted the sea before Moses when everyone was on his tail, you know. So all these things were in my mind, they were fighting what I believed, they were opposing what I saw and what I was being told. You know, I know that after school, after receiving your certificate, you worked odd jobs for a while, but then you started writing a play. And this happened, as I understand it, thanks to a friend, well, you started writing down your thoughts.

And I think your friend saw what you were writing and said, "Hey , this looks like a play." Yes. Yes. By the way, I actually got my diploma. I went to night school and got a certificate. So I didn't get a GED. I got my certificate, but I had to go to night school every day from 7 to 10 pm to get it. But yes, that was when I was 18-19 years old. I saw Oprah on the show where she said that writing down thoughts is cathartic.

I started writing down everything I went through, but I used other characters' names because there was no privacy in the house where I grew up. So if anyone found it, I didn't want them to realize I was writing about myself. A friend of mine read it and said, “Dude, this is a really good play. " You should do something about this." And that was the impetus for my first show. I know I have changed. Yes . This was in 1991, 1990. 91st. Yes. That's when you moved to Atlanta.

I want to break this down a little bit, because you were 20 years old at the time, right? I mean, most 20- year-olds don't know how to write plays, right? And this was before books like Playwriting for Dummies came out, right? Perhaps it was around that time that these books for dummies started to come out. But how did you figure out how to structure it? How to write it? What tools did you have to do this? I didn't know how to write. I was sneaking into the theater because I couldn't afford tickets.

So I would sneak in during the intermission when the audience would go out to smoke, and then they would come back, and I would mix with the crowd and go in with them. So I saw the second acts of many plays. That's why people often told me, "This play of yours is only for one act." I replied, "Well, that's all I saw." It was the only thing I could focus on. But the friend who told me it was a really good piece was an Alvin Ailey dancer, he had traveled the world and he had a very good understanding of structure and how things should be.

He really helped me understand how to turn diary entries into the structure of a play. So, you moved to Atlanta, decided to put on this play, and saved up all your money to perform it at the community theater. This was around 1990. And by the way, you not only wrote it, but also composed the music. You wrote the music. So you were also a musician. No, I don't play, but I could...how is that? I could sing it. I could sing it, hum it, hear the keys, ask a pianist to play it for me and add my voice.

But since I don't act, I designed the sets myself, did the makeup, and played the lead role. And, you know, no one came that first time. Yes. And all of this, all of this wasn't because I was trying to do everything myself. It was because I was broke and realized I couldn't hire anyone to do it. So I had to build the scenery. I had to learn how to do makeup. I had to go on stage and then sell drinks and programs during intermission, you know, just to the 12 people who were in the audience.

Yes. I mean, usually, and I say, I shouldn't say "usually," but for the vast majority of people, that would be the end of it, right? I mean, because there are a lot of people who want to be playwrights or want to go into acting . We only know about the famous ones because they are the ones who are interviewed, but there are thousands and thousands of people who simply don't succeed or don't continue to persevere towards their goals. After you put on a play and, you know, only 12 people came, and you spent all your money on this thing.

Um, what made you want to try again? In fact, 30 people came to the first screening , I'll never forget, 30 . No, I said 12, but there were 30 people and $12,000—that's what I saved through H&R Block, doing some tax fraud to get that money. Um, but what kept me going was that out of those 30 people, someone said, " Dude, this is really good." I would like to invest." And, you know, the Bible talks about the ram in the bushes, that there's always some ram in the bushes.

This means that just when you set out to do something, there is always something to help you achieve it. So from the first show until about '98, I did one show a year, and every time I did a show, I would go out to an audience of 1,200 people. I reached an audience of 300 people. Um, and you still couldn't pay all the bills. But in every audience, there was someone who encouraged me to continue and said they wanted to invest. And you continued to do so.

I mean, for six years. Yes. You continued to put on this play, the same play. Did you make any changes to the show? No. No. It was...No, it was the same show. Always the same show. And every time we showed it, we were met with this... people really really liked the show. But I just didn't have the skills to be a promoter. I didn't know how, how to promote. I didn't know how to buy radio advertising. I didn't know how to let people know that the show was happening.

It wasn't my gift. The fourth time seems to be the moment it really exploded in Atlanta. It was March 12, 1998 at the House of Blues, and I think it's the eighth...so from '92 to '98 it became popular. I was doing about one show a year at that time. So I think this is the seventh or eighth show, and we played it at the House of Blues. I was sitting in the dressing room complaining because the heating in the building had been turned off and it was terribly cold.

It was freezing in Atlanta that night. I will never forget this. I looked out the window, and there was a line around the corner, everyone trying to get inside. This is the first time I've seen this. And when I tell you that I cried, prayed, and thanked God. I just, you know, felt like I finally saw a ray of light. However, I was still afraid that it was temporary. Looking back, if I could have talked to that guy back then, I would have said, “Listen, you’re safe now.

You're okay. This is the moment that changed your life." If people could pinpoint that one moment when you realize: this is the moment that changed your life for the better, then I'm 55 now , and I still point to the moment when everything changed. What do you think it was? I mean, it's the same show. You've been doing this for 6 years. Yes. What do you think happened? What has changed ? Why, why that night? I'll tell you the only thing that changed between the first show and this one: the play was about adults who had experienced childhood abuse and about two people who forgave their abusive father.

And I haven't forgiven my father. So right before that, he and I had a terrible fight, and I said on the phone, "I forgive you." I screamed it out, and it was almost like something inside me changed, and when I saw the play again, I watch the actors say the lines and think, wait, this is exactly what's happening to me. It was like I got ahead of myself writing this show. So, I was in the moment of forgiving him, and that was the biggest thing that changed inside me, and then everything around me changed too.

The show just took off because I felt like I was coming from a truth that resonated with people in a way that really changed them, not as if I hadn't gotten to the heart of what I was talking about. You know, this idea of forgiveness, it's...it's complicated, right? Because a lot of people find it very, very difficult to forgive, and there are good reasons for that, right? But...but there is incredible power in being the one who forgives. It's actually...it's a very empowering feeling, because you decide, you make a decision regardless of how the other person reacts .

Yes. And not only that, but also the realization that because of my inability to forgive, I had dragged this man, what he did, and everything he said, into every part of my life. He was present in every situation of my life . His words , his voice, his... his everything. Not just him, but other people in my life, in my early childhood, who did terrible things. So I had to get to the point where I started thinking: How do I get these voices out of my head?

How do I let go of this? How do I...how do I get to a state where I no longer use rage, anger, and bitterness to move forward? Because people whose " fuel" is anger, bitterness, and rage, when they burn this fuel, their exhaust is anger, bitterness, and rage. And I didn't want this. I no longer wanted to accept it and use it as my fuel. I wanted ... I wanted to be a person who... I did n't know what that was yet, but I just didn't want this or that in my life anymore.

So, forgiveness was solely for me, not him. And the power in that is what set me free and set my life on a completely different course. And forgiveness was not a one-time thing. I forgive you, and that's all . No, it was practice. I had to apply this every day until my words and the thoughts of my heart became one with my actions, my feelings, and how I treated him. Certainly. What do you think if I had met you in 1998 after that performance—because it was a real boost for you, wasn't it?

And then, I think, you went to Chicago. You did a show called "I Can Do It All Myself," and then you started this series of writing plays and acting in them for a year or two. Did you consider yourself a playwright? Did you think then: "This is who I will be"? "I'm going to become a playwright and maybe one day my plays will be on Broadway." No. No, I didn't think so. I could never see myself through the lens of Broadway or any mainstream definition of my work, because, for one, I performed in what was affectionately called the " Chitlin' Circus"—a network of venues where black artists performed during the segregation era, when they couldn't play in "white" venues, walk in through the front door, or perform in certain clubs except through the kitchen.

So black people created this network where artists became famous and made a living among "their own," and some of the biggest names you know today worked there. So when I started touring in 1998, I was caught up in that same system, and even though segregation was long gone, that energy and support from people was still very active and palpable. I didn't consider myself to be someone like that because I felt like the genre I was working in wasn't even defined yet. So, you didn't necessarily consider yourself a playwright.

Did you think—or maybe you were thinking, “Oh, this is interesting, and maybe I’ll make TV movies”—were you already thinking that big, or did that come later? No. But what happened was that when I started, I was like, "Yes, I'm a playwright," but not in the Broadway sense of the word. Aha. But it turned out that I started giving over 300 performances a year, sometimes even 360 performances a year. and the crowds got bigger and bigger, and we started with 1,200-seat theaters, and by the time I finished touring, I was packing full arenas of 18,000 or 19,000.

So what was happening was that I felt like I needed to find a way to meet this demand for what I had. It was as if there was this huge hunger for such a show, for such laughter and joy. And I thought: okay, what next? I can't make these theaters bigger, and I can't work any harder than I already do. So let me turn my attention to television. And that's when "House of Pain" was born. And then I thought : let me pay attention to the cinema.

And that's when, you know, "Diary of a Mad Black Woman" came out. So, I had a plan from the very beginning. I mean, it's amazing because you were making a lot of money, and just four or five years ago you were broke. Yes. I mean, it happened because it managed to attract an audience that really appreciated it. I mean, you, as you mentioned, you're still, you know, you weren't at the New York Times in 2004, 2003. But you put on these huge shows because you were engaging an audience that was seeing their own experiences on stage.

That 's right, and instead of going through Hollywood, auditioning, or trying to be a part of some show or movie, I didn't think that was my path. I thought this was my path: to walk through my own door, with my own people, and have this feeling of walking into a room, knowing I'm alone, but I'm not alone, carrying them all with me, and knowing that whatever I do next, they'll come to support me. So it was a really profound time. Was it difficult for you to sit down and write, or did it come easily?

Writing for me is still, uh, it's still very easy to come up with a story, to tell it, and I didn't realize that until recently because, you know, with all this talk in recent years, people started talking about some people being on the autism spectrum and so much of that . I thought, um, because the way I move or get distracted, or say, the clicking of a pen at the end of the room, I can get distracted by a lot of things and lose focus. Sometimes I even wear headphones in a restaurant so I can't hear everything around me.

So after being tested recently, it turned out that I have a spectrum of many conditions. However, I realized that of all the traumatic experiences I had, this one was the most true for me. Because of all the traumas in my childhood, I became hypervigilant. To be safe, to feel good, to feel like I could survive or live another day, my young mind became hypervigilant, and I taught myself to always be aware of everything around me and what was happening. I didn't know that a child's brain was capable of doing something like that to protect itself.

So when I write, that space of the brain that is hypervigilant, and also the one that completely cuts off any external influences or whatever was happening to me in those dark moments. I could go somewhere in my mind and be in a much safer, much happier place until the event was over. So when I write, I can still turn to that space, and I can sit in a chair for 8–12 hours , writing in that state, oblivious to time and what's going on in the house or around me.

I am focused only on what is in front of me. Can you still do that? Yes. Yes, I can. I still do this when I write . You still do it. Yes. Yes. This is a dissociation that many people who have experienced serious trauma are capable of. However, there are people who have dissociated into a state from which they cannot return. Part of the gift I think I received is that I could dissociate, but also come back to myself. The problem is , and I didn't know this until probably 10 years ago, that I dissociated from every emotional moment, even the good ones, even the great ones.

I felt like I was losing my mind . People come up to me and say, "Hey, do you remember that time when we...we had so much fun." And I'm like: " No, I don't remember." I really have to concentrate to say, "Oh, yes, that really happened." Because recently I learned how quickly I can leave a situation, rise above it, and move through it. This, this really makes so much sense when I hear it, because it's almost like ... people need stimulation in different ways, and for you, stimulation is being distraction-free, building a world that comes out of your mind.

Putting that on paper, and it actually creates this very stimulating space for you that allows you to live, to function in the world. Yes. It's also safe that I can control that in that world it's safe for everyone , like I can control everything that happens there, because as a child I had no control over what happened in mine. I want to ask you about a famous character that you created, and a character that, you know, was a really important part of creating your early work— Medea, who is based on my aunts, my mother, and many different people.

You were this character, you were not only the screenwriter, but also the actor. First of all, was this something you had in mind from the beginning, or was this the only way that would work for you to ... Yes. ...to play this character? No, my height is 198 centimeters. I thought it was ridiculous. But I tried my hand at the role of old, old Joe. And I know I've changed. People really liked this character. And I saw Eddie Murphy's characters in "The Mad Professor," you know.

Yes. Characters, and I thought: why don't I try myself as a grandmother? And I don't know what I was thinking, but I was only going to do it for 5 minutes on stage and then switch to Joe. I was going to play several characters on stage, but every time I went on stage, the audience would start laughing hysterically. And at first I didn't understand what was happening, for example, if I walked across the stage, they were howling with laughter, and I was like: what's happening? Then I look behind me, oh, that ass is moving like crazy, you know?

So all of these moments were very strange to me , because I didn't expect people to become so attached to her. And I thought I would do one show and then she would disappear. But when I did the next play, everyone was asking, "Where's Medea? Where's Medea? Where's Medea?" So, I returned it . But I also had to find a way to feel comfortable playing this character because it was so unusual for me . So, as always, the last 30 minutes of every show, as we approach the third act and the climax of everything, I was able to sit down, say wise things, and discuss the issues that were troubling us as a community, as a nation.

Getting people to sit on the edge of their seats and listen quietly in the audience is very difficult, you know, because we are very emotional when we watch, we are constantly talking to the screen. We are part of what is happening. So those moments where I could sit down and really teach, talk about the issues that were weighing us down, how to overcome them, and how to move forward— it was almost like a therapy session for people who didn't even understand what therapy was. That was very powerful for me.

So that's how I was able to justify it in my mind for years. It was like a tool to address these larger issues, it was a comic relief, but it was really a way to talk about things that the audience associated themselves with, recognizing themselves in these stories, scenarios, and issues that you were raising. Yes. Yes. The laughter, the costume, and this excessive, exaggerated humor —it was all like anesthesia. You know, an anesthesiologist works to get to the root of the problem so we can fix it.

When you signed a deal with TBS to do Tyler Perry's House of Payne, it lasted six years, and you wrote, well, you wrote almost all of those episodes, most if not all of them. Help me understand how you began to organize this growing empire that you are at the helm of , how you organized it so that you are literally the author. It's almost like having a bakery where you bake incredible bread and everyone wants it, but you continue to bake it yourself, whereas usually such an owner just shows others how to bake bread and goes off to do something else.

And you continued to be both the baker and the boss, and to manage the entire process. How do you...I mean, first of all, is it because you don't know how else to do it? No. Well, I just trained my brain to work that way. Firstly, but also because I was dealing with extremely limited budgets . Extremely limited budgets . You know, TBS, everyone says, “Oh, it’s a $ 200 million deal . TBS commissioned it for House of Payne.” Well, they didn't tell you that . They didn't give me $200 million .

I had to film the show and deliver it so the money would come in over time. So, since I write very quickly, it's not as monumental a task as people might think. Let's say I know that writers can disappear for eight or nine months and then come back with an entire season of a series. But for me — again , by tuning into that state and sitting in that room, I could come up with 22 episodes of the series in a week or two. Yes, and the same thing happened with "House of Payne." I mean, have a feel for it.

I think the things that were supposed to protect me as a child are now a gift that I have as an adult, allowing me to act very quickly in that sense. So I never felt like I was doing anything incredible writing all these shows because I didn't come from Hollywood. I didn't know how it was done. I didn't know there was another way. And also, when I tried to hire other writers, it became problematic in the sense that the ratings dropped because the audience understood that it wasn't my voice.

So I had to keep everything in my hands for as long as possible. Have you managed to make the transition where people write in a way that captures your voice or your aesthetic better over the years? No. And unfortunately, I hired a bunch of writers who are now writing for... I think I have 11 shows on the air, and they're writing for eight or nine of them. And it's hard for me to understand that or watch these shows because...when I handed them the show, there were already over 100 episodes in each of these series.

So as a screenwriter, the first thing I would think is, " I'm going to watch every episode to understand his writing style, what he's doing, and what the audience likes." So when you hand the show over to the writers and they go a completely different path and deviate from the essence of the series, it can be quite upsetting and disappointing. So now I personally come into the script room and give more guidance on how to stick to the concept, instead of thinking that the writer will just come in and automatically understand everything just by watching the series.

I hope that in future seasons they can catch the essence and see how and what was written before. I totally understand this as a perfectionist, but I've also interviewed hundreds of company founders, and they've said, "Tyler, this doesn't scale." You ca n't scale yourself. You need to let go of the situation, right? And you just have to accept that some things won't be up to your standards, but the audience might still like them. Yes. And I agree 100%. That's why most shows now have writing teams.

However , if the ratings are falling, we need to talk because something is wrong. So I let them write however they wanted and saw what would come of it . And I followed the show's ratings because I couldn't watch it myself, knowing I would be dissatisfied. I observed what worked and what didn't. And then we discussed how to get everything back on track. So, even now, at this stage of your life and career, with all your successes... It's still hard for you to see something that doesn't meet standards, even though your reputation is already established, people know you, you've already established yourself as a screenwriter and director, but still...

it gnaws at you when you see something imperfect. No, no, no. Not in the sense that it doesn't meet my standards, but in the sense that you don't know your audience. It's like you, you're far from the audience I've spoken to thousands and thousands of times. I tried everything on them. I was my own research agency: I tested jokes, saw what worked, what made them literally jump out of their seats with joy or, conversely, sit down. Or I always knew when I went too far with a joke; I could hear this buzz in the hall or if there was something they didn't like.

So all these years of speaking in front of audiences taught me what works, and that's why they all become number one when I, when I, uh, present them. That's what I mean . So no, I don't mind people moving in a different direction, but I want to make sure you understand your audience because I've had success serving my niche perfectly. How did you understand your audience? How did you study them? What were you doing? Just being on stage. It's not, it's like a professor sitting in front of a student audience, teaching, asking questions, and listening.

For me, it meant sitting there, telling jokes, trying different things, different storylines, seeing what the audience really "swallowed," what made them buy a bunch of tickets and tell everyone to go to the show, and what didn't work that way . The promoter I worked with at the very beginning told me, “Listen, I don’t have a lot of money, but I have connections. So I have enough connections to fill spots for performances on Tuesday and Wednesday, which means Thursday, Friday, Saturday, and Sunday. Those six shows—if they 're bad, no one will come." So on Tuesday and Wednesday he filled the hall.

At the very beginning, half the hall was "fitted ". He begged people to come, and by the time we got to Friday, we were sold out. So those were my research, exploration days. And it was "word of mouth. " People were just telling others, "You have to go to this show." Yes. And at that time I had a website www.tyler.com. And I asked people to subscribe to my newsletter. And while traveling around the country, I created this mailing list that I still have. I don't know how many of those people are still alive, but I still have a few million people I could send a letter to and say, " Hey, I'm bringing my show to your city." And we would sell out all the tickets just because of this letter.

This indicates that Hollywood and mainstream entertainment are trying to please a very specific audience, while there are huge groups of viewers who are being completely ignored. For example, there are metal bands, country bands that seem little-known to us, but they gather 10,000 people every day across the country because there are viewers who want to see it. Yes. Yes. And you can build an entire universe based on such an audience. How did I do it? Yes. As I still do to this day: my Netflix series " Beauty in Black" immediately topped the ratings.

"Mia Kulpa" also became number one on Netflix. " Divorce in Black " was number one on Amazon. So, yes. Yes. Tyler, how did you personally feel about the criticism you received from time to time? On the one hand, there was an audience that loved your work, went to theaters and watched the show , and on the other hand, there were people, and that's natural. Maybe it was envy, but some criticized your work for stereotypes and patterns, and that must have affected you . In the beginning, because this is what happens with success : while you are rising, you are loved and adored.

Yes. But as soon as you stick your head above a certain level, people start shooting at anyone they see. As long as you are in the shadows, as long as they don't pay attention to you or consider you unimportant, they won't touch you. But when you, like those country or rock bands, start to become popular, that's when the criticism starts to appear, right? But I learned something very early. I was sitting in the theater , and I was being reviewed by two critics. They were sitting in the same row, in the front row, and watching the same show.

Me, this is one of the few times I've read reviews and I looked at a review from a guy who was saying how great the show was, how much he adored it. A black guy who liked it, who understood it, it reminded him of family. And then I looked at the review from a middle-aged white man who said it was the worst he had ever seen. He doesn't understand this. He did n't understand this. So who is right? So I focus on the people who have been my research, my learning, who have been with me since day one.

That's what the focus is on . You have a huge, you know, production company. You have a massive soundstage and film pavilion in Atlanta, where I know Black Panther, Wakanda Forever, and more were filmed. Um, and you've been working on...I mean, you, I imagine, can choose your projects at this point. And you have a new one that I want to talk about a little bit , called "68," and, you know, by the time this interview comes out, it's already out. But for those who haven't seen it yet, it's a story about 855 women, black women, who were recruited into an all- black women's unit, uh, women who were...

It was a battalion, a battalion, sorry. in World War II to help with the critical mission of delivering mail to families and soldiers so people knew what was going on. About 18 million letters have accumulated there. How did you find out about this story? Nicole Avant, who, you know, Ambassador Nicole Avant, is just a wonderful person, called me and said, "Tyler, I have this promo from the producer." Her name is Carrie Selick, and Peter Huber. And I really want you to look at it. And it was about these 855 black women and women of color who served in World War II.

I'm like: you must be kidding. Black women were in World War II. I've never heard this story. I'm like: well, what did they do? And to learn that at the end of the war, after the Ardennes operation , there was a huge mail jam, soldiers did not receive letters, and their relatives at home did not receive news from them. They did not know whether they were alive or had died in battle. They didn't know any of this because the mail stopped coming. And today we say, "Oh, it's just mail." No, no, no, no.

There was no email back then. There were no mobile phones. There were no social media. There was no way to contact them. So during the war, the mail meant everything. And the fact that 17 million letters were lying in hangars and not being delivered to the soldiers—that was terrible. and morale was at an all-time low. So to know that several units were sent to deal with this chaos that arose, because there was mold, rain, humidity, and pests that were eating the packages, because it was after Christmas, there were gifts and food .

Seeing these women go there, they were given six months to figure this out, and they did it in less than 90 days and were able to bring hope and news to these families. It was really something that inspired me, and I was excited to take on it , but I'm also very, very proud of it. It is based in part on the life story of Charity Adams, played by Kerry Washington. A military base is named in honor of Charity Adams . She eventually became, I think, a lieutenant colonel at the time.

She was a captain. You wrote this story. How did you come up with the basis for writing this story? Yes. I mean, it's based on real events, but there's also fiction, like in all historical films. How did you start thinking about creating a drama and a plot around it ? I talked to Nicole and Carrie Selick, and they said, "Oh, there's about five members still alive." Are you kidding, seriously? I say: "They must be close to a hundred now ." They say, "Yes, one is 103 years old, another is 99, and another is 102." And they told me about Ms.

Lina King, who lives in Las Vegas, and I got on a plane that same day and went to see her. and I didn't know what to expect. You know, she's 99 years old, she's a veteran, she went through the war. I didn't know, you know, who knows what her memory or health status was like. Yes. Every detail. I enter the house and think: okay, will they bring her in a chair? What is happening? This woman comes in: her hair is done, makeup, lipstick, she sits down.

Congratulations, Mr. Perry. It's so nice to meet you. Thank you very much for coming. That is, she was as sharp-witted as ever. And by the way, did she know your work? Did she know who you were? Oh, yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. She was a big, big fan. And, you know, like a lot of women of that time and age, which is great. But I asked her: " Tell me how it was." And the first thing she talked about was a young Jewish guy. She was in love, well, it was her friend whom she loved, because women didn't talk about such things back then, named Abram.

and all the emotions of over 70 years came back to her at that moment. She burst into tears, and I asked her to tell me about it, and I thought: this is the path to the film, while she was telling me why she went there. She wanted to fight Hitler because when he got there, he was shot down within a few weeks, and she loved him, they grew up together, and it was very, very painful for her. Yes. So this, I mean, this is shown in the movie.

This is incredible. This is real. This is true. Well, listen to me. Listen to me. There are so many moments in the film where Charity Adams stands up to the general. This is a real moment. When the chaplain comes and she asks him what she asked for, it's a real moment. When the young man tells her, “I was supposed to get married, but when I met you,” it’s a real moment. So a large, large percentage of the film is based on real events. how they sailed on the ship "Ile-de-France " without any, without any escort.

The real moment, how they were escorted, or not escorted, but how they marched. At the end, I show real footage of them marching. Yes. So to to to perfection. So, all of that was really important to me, to make these moments feel real. However, I allowed myself to make that important moment of honoring at the end, because many women returned home without any celebrations, they simply returned to their usual activities. Charity Adams worked at Macy's for a while. There was a sense of awkwardness because people at the time thought the only reason they went there was to be concubines for black soldiers .

So they didn't even know what these women had actually done. Many members of the 68th Unit had families whose children didn't even know they served. This is amazing. I mean, Charity Adams, played by Kerry Washington, was so strong and resilient. And it's hard to imagine that she was just a saleswoman at Macy's after all that. Yes. A certain time. And here's the thing: she was 26 years old at the time. At 26, she commanded 855 women. Yes. Yes. The real Lina was able to see the film—or, I think, a version of the film—before her death.

Yes. I felt such urgency because I knew that she and Miss Rome, who I didn't get to show the film to—she died at 104. But I really wanted Lina to see him. So I brought him to her house, she was in hospice. She was 100 years old, she was bedridden, and when I showed her the film, she was still lucid. You know , actually, when I came in, she said, “No, no, no. He is here. I need lipstick. " She was still herself, you know? So while she watched, I watched her salute the screen and cry.

And when it was all over, she—and I filmed it—was crying, saying, “Thank you for telling the world that black women contributed to the victory, that we mattered, that we had something to say, and that we did something. Thank you very much. So, it was a very powerful moment. Tyler, I'm in awe of how prolific you are, as this seems to be the third film you've released this year, or the third in the last year. Divorce and Black Mayulpa—that's a lot of movies in one year. Most directors make one film every four to five years.

Yes. Most of the writers and directors, again, we talked about this a little bit, you need to be in this room. You need to write. You need to, um, and I wonder how you manage to shut yourself off from the world and do that. I mean, every day you probably get over 100 emails, ideas, people trying to reach you, calls to answer, meetings to be in . You run a business with a bunch of employees, and yet productivity is just...you're literally in the room like a carpenter working with tools.

I don't have 100 letters . If five people come in a day, that's a lot, because I have a great team, and I've learned to delegate everything to others. You guys, do this. And when I go to write, I literally disconnect, I can't be contacted. Unable to reach the phone. And again, I know people think I probably work 24/7, seven days a week, 365 days a year, but no, I actually work really hard for three or four months , and then I take two months off.

Last year, I think I worked very hard for five months and rested for six. So during these six months, I write, travel, take care of myself, and clear my thoughts . So yes, I work really hard on the boils. Yes, when you do... yes. Tell us a little more about what you do when you're not working. Are you really not working? I write, but I don't feel like writing is work, because when the characters...sometimes I just write things down, a scene comes along, or I hear a name, I hear someone say, "My name is so-and-so." I just write it down, and three days later they say something, and I see the scene, look back, and think, "Oh, this scene with no title—that's this person." "Oh, that's what's happening." And then I sit down, and it all comes together.

But no, I have a house in the Bahamas and a house in Wyoming where if a hummingbird flies past you it sounds like a jet engine because it's so quiet there that literally moose come into my backyard. They come and lie down in the yard for a few hours. It's so peaceful and quiet there that it allows me to just drop everything, reduce everything to zero, figure out where I am, what I'm feeling, just write and be in the moment. How do you organize your thoughts and ideas?

Do you write them down physically in a notebook or do you use an iPad? How do you remember things , like meeting someone and thinking, "oh, that could be a character," or they said something and it's a line for the script ? I just make a note on my phone because I don't like writing something down and forgetting about it, or holding on to something that shouldn't be something worth holding on to . So I feel like if it's really important, it will come back to me .

When it appears in history , that's when it becomes important. And you just make a note on your phone that says what? Ideas or just something random? Yes. Yes. Uh, her name is Rachel. She's going through a divorce, she has a four-year-old child, and she talks to me. What do you say, Rachel? And every time I hear something from Rachel, I write it down. Wow. And you... I mean, you write something every day, actually . You write something every day . Well, a note or something like that.

Yes. But as for scripts—no, there are months when I don't write anything at all . It's like there's nothing there , and I don't want to let anyone in. I want to be alone with my thoughts. And at this time, you...I mean, how much control do you have over other projects that are going on in parallel? Do you disconnect from them or are you constantly involved in the process? Many shows, like “House of Pain,” now have over 400 episodes. Yes. 400 series. Oho. So many of them are operating on autopilot.

You know, there are screenwriters, directors, they work on autopilot. They still work very well . "Sisters" is one of them. You know, they all do great . So now I just focus on what I want to write and what I want to do. You're still young for someone who has achieved so much. I mean, I was talking to someone recently, I don't remember who, and he mentioned that Anthony Hopkins didn't become a really famous actor until he was 55 . We perceive Anthony Hopkins as a legend, and of course he is, but it all started with The Silence of the Lambs when he was 55.

That's right. He was pretty little known up until that point for many years, and now he's in his 80s. You know, he's a legend. And now you are 55, you have the whole second half of your life ahead of you. If we looked into the future 30 years from now, what would Tyler Perry have managed to do in those 30, 40 or 50 years that you have left? You know, ever since I turned 55, I realized that in 15 years I'll be 70. And I do n't want to miss it.

I missed the time from 20 to 45 years old. I missed it while working like crazy. My son was born when I was 45, and he turns 10 at the end of this month. Despite being there for him, I've been working so hard that I want the next 15 years to be more focused on what brings me joy. So that when I look back, I have no regrets, because this is all we have. This period from 55 to 70—it's like, you know, Oprah said, "Please, I'm 70.

I'm living the best life I can." So I understand that. But I want to make these 15 years my best and most conscious years . That's what I'm focused on right now. Does this mean you might slow down the pace of content production? Absolutely. I don't know about the studio's pace of work, but for me personally, it's definitely... Undoubtedly. As for movies or ideas, it's a historical drama, and it's clear that it's your passion, you love the story. You love these women. You love the opportunity to revive this piece of history that many people have never heard of, right?

It's like, you know, " Hidden Figures," right? That movie is about NASA, well, you know, those women who worked at NASA and were part of the space program. This could be the same version of bringing this to the attention of the cultural consciousness. Or, do you think you want to make more films like this? those, those historical dramas, you know, after "Jasmine ," I wrote "Jasmine," that was the first film I ever wrote, and after holding it for 27 years, after filming, that was my first experience of falling in love with filmmaking.

That's when I really enjoyed it, and 6A brought me the same joy. So now I'm not looking for or needing anything. 68 came to me because after " Jasmine" I thought: " Okay, that's it, you've done everything you wanted." So I'm waiting for something to come to me and speak in a way that will cause me such excitement and passion. But it looks like for at least the next 10-15 years, the job you want to focus on is being a dad. Yes. Yes. Well, that's been my focus for the last 10 years.

But, it's just, you know, I fly back and forth to football games. I want to see more games. I want, I just want, I want to hear, especially as he enters those teenage years and puberty over the next few years. I want to make sure I'm there for him with any questions, ideas, or thoughts. This will be very, very important to me. How important it is that you grew up in the church. I know that faith has been a big part of your identity. Um, what, what is your relationship with faith and Christianity today?

I, I completely and completely believe in God. I pray constantly. I am moved and concerned, and concerned about where we are in the world right now. Me, I'm concerned about the impact that social media has on every part of our lives and on our mental health. So, if I did n't have prayer, if I did n't have faith, if I didn't believe, if my mother didn't give me that base, I don't know where I would be right now in my life. Because it is this prayer, that faith, that trust, that belief in God, that holding on to hope—that is what has brought me to this place.

Even in the darkest times, it's still something I lean on. Tyler Perry, thank you very much. It's my pleasure, Guy. Thank you very much . This is great. Thank you. Hey, thanks for watching my conversation with Tyler Perry. He wrote and directed the new Netflix film "68." If you want to see more videos like this, please subscribe to this channel. We publish a new conversation every week. And of course, we're also an audio podcast, so you can listen to Great Creators wherever you listen to podcasts: on Amazon, Spotify, Apple, and wherever else.

I'm Guy Raz and this was "Great Creators" from Builted Productions. Thank you very much for watching, see you right here next week.