Tools to Bolster Your Mental Health & Confidence | Dr. Paul Conti

And there's far more going right in any And there's far more going right in any of us, in all of us, than there is going of us, in all of us, than there is going of us, in all of us, than there is going wrong if we're here, right? And if we're wrong if we're here, right? And if we're wrong if we're here, right? And if we're listening to to educational material, we listening to to educational material, we listening to to educational material, we want to better ourselves, there's so want to better ourselves, there's so want to better ourselves, there's so much more that's going right in us, and much more that's going right in us, and much more that's going right in us, and it's a good place for us to start it's a good place for us to start it's a good place for us to start because it helps us to be able to look because it helps us to be able to look because it helps us to be able to look at what's not going the way we want it at what's not going the way we want it at what's not going the way we want it to be, what we where we want to bring to be, what we where we want to bring to be, what we where we want to bring change in our lives, but we should start change in our lives, but we should start change in our lives, but we should start from a position of strength. Welcome to from a position of strength. Welcome to from a position of strength. Welcome to the Huberman Lab podcast where we the Huberman Lab podcast where we the Huberman Lab podcast where we discuss science and science-based discuss science and science-based discuss science and science-based [music] tools for everyday life. I'm Andrew Huberman and I'm a professor I'm Andrew Huberman and I'm a professor of neurobiology and ophthalmology at of neurobiology and ophthalmology at of neurobiology and ophthalmology at Stanford School of Medicine. My guest Stanford School of Medicine. My guest Stanford School of Medicine. My guest today is Dr. Paul Conti. Dr. Paul Conti today is Dr. Paul Conti. Dr. Paul Conti today is Dr. Paul Conti. Dr. Paul Conti is a medical doctor and psychiatrist and is a medical doctor and psychiatrist and is a medical doctor and psychiatrist and an expert in recovery from trauma. He is an expert in recovery from trauma. He is an expert in recovery from trauma. He is also one of the foremost public also one of the foremost public also one of the foremost public educators on how anyone can build a educators on how anyone can build a educators on how anyone can build a greater sense of agency, confidence, and greater sense of agency, confidence, and greater sense of agency, confidence, and well-being in their life. well-being in their life. well-being in their life. Today we discuss the practical aspects Today we discuss the practical aspects Today we discuss the practical aspects of building and maintaining mental of building and maintaining mental of building and maintaining mental health. In particular, how to identify health. In particular, how to identify health. In particular, how to identify your natural strengths and the often your natural strengths and the often your natural strengths and the often unseen opportunities to improve your unseen opportunities to improve your unseen opportunities to improve your reflexive mental framework and reflexive mental framework and reflexive mental framework and relationship with self and others. Dr. relationship with self and others. Dr. relationship with self and others. Dr. Conti's approach to building mental Conti's approach to building mental Conti's approach to building mental health and overcoming challenges with health and overcoming challenges with health and overcoming challenges with mental health are very different than mental health are very different than mental health are very different than most of the information that you'll find most of the information that you'll find most of the information that you'll find on the internet and elsewhere. He has on the internet and elsewhere. He has on the internet and elsewhere. He has decades of clinical experience and he decades of clinical experience and he decades of clinical experience and he draws on that end data to explain the draws on that end data to explain the draws on that end data to explain the specific questions that we all need to specific questions that we all need to specific questions that we all need to ask ourselves when we're facing things ask ourselves when we're facing things ask ourselves when we're facing things like lowered motivation, mood, or like lowered motivation, mood, or like lowered motivation, mood, or challenges overcoming bad habits. Today challenges overcoming bad habits. Today challenges overcoming bad habits. Today we discuss all of that as well as how to we discuss all of that as well as how to we discuss all of that as well as how to balance action and introspection. And balance action and introspection. And balance action and introspection. And this is very important because I think a this is very important because I think a this is very important because I think a lot of people think about mental health lot of people think about mental health lot of people think about mental health as merely an introspective process, but as merely an introspective process, but as merely an introspective process, but as Dr. Conti points out, it's really a as Dr. Conti points out, it's really a as Dr. Conti points out, it's really a balance of thinking and doing and often balance of thinking and doing and often balance of thinking and doing and often involves more doing than thinking. So involves more doing than thinking. So involves more doing than thinking. So during today's episode, you'll get a during today's episode, you'll get a during today's episode, you'll get a specific framework of questions to ask specific framework of questions to ask specific framework of questions to ask yourself repeatedly, that is every day yourself repeatedly, that is every day yourself repeatedly, that is every day or every week, and specific action steps or every week, and specific action steps or every week, and specific action steps to take so that you can truly become the to take so that you can truly become the to take so that you can truly become the best version of yourself and derive the best version of yourself and derive the best version of yourself and derive the greatest sense of meaning along the way. greatest sense of meaning along the way. greatest sense of meaning along the way. I'd like to point out that Dr. Conti I'd like to point out that Dr. Conti I'd like to point out that Dr. Conti also has a new book coming out which is also has a new book coming out which is also has a new book coming out which is aptly entitled What's Going Right, a aptly entitled What's Going Right, a aptly entitled What's Going Right, a powerful new method for optimizing your powerful new method for optimizing your powerful new method for optimizing your mental health. And I've read the book mental health. And I've read the book mental health. And I've read the book from front to back and I have to tell from front to back and I have to tell from front to back and I have to tell you it's a wonderful resource that you it's a wonderful resource that you it's a wonderful resource that includes both information and simple includes both information and simple includes both information and simple worksheet-like prompts that can help worksheet-like prompts that can help worksheet-like prompts that can help anyone through sticking points as well anyone through sticking points as well anyone through sticking points as well as to build on what the title suggests, as to build on what the title suggests, as to build on what the title suggests, what's already going right. So if you're what's already going right. So if you're what's already going right. So if you're currently suffering or if you're doing currently suffering or if you're doing currently suffering or if you're doing well and you want to level up your well and you want to level up your well and you want to level up your mental health further, today's mental health further, today's mental health further, today's conversation is definitely for you. conversation is definitely for you. conversation is definitely for you. Before we begin, I'd like to emphasize Before we begin, I'd like to emphasize Before we begin, I'd like to emphasize that this podcast is separate from my that this podcast is separate from my that this podcast is separate from my teaching and research roles at Stanford. teaching and research roles at Stanford. teaching and research roles at Stanford. It is, however, part of my desire and It is, however, part of my desire and It is, however, part of my desire and effort to bring zero-cost to consumer effort to bring zero-cost to consumer effort to bring zero-cost to consumer information about science and information about science and information about science and science-related tools to the general science-related tools to the general science-related tools to the general public. In keeping with that theme, public. In keeping with that theme, public. In keeping with that theme, today's episode does include sponsors. today's episode does include sponsors. today's episode does include sponsors. And now for my discussion with Dr. Paul And now for my discussion with Dr. Paul And now for my discussion with Dr. Paul Conti. Dr. Paul Conti, welcome back. Conti. Dr. Paul Conti, welcome back. Conti. Dr. Paul Conti, welcome back. Thank you. Thank you for having me back. Thank you. Thank you for having me back. Thank you. Thank you for having me back. >> Uh congratulations on your >> Uh congratulations on your >> Uh congratulations on your book, What's Going Right, uh a powerful book, What's Going Right, uh a powerful book, What's Going Right, uh a powerful new method for optimizing your mental new method for optimizing your mental new method for optimizing your mental health. It's an amazing book and you health. It's an amazing book and you health. It's an amazing book and you also hold the record not incidentally, I also hold the record not incidentally, I also hold the record not incidentally, I think, for the most viewed and think, for the most viewed and think, for the most viewed and downloaded episodes of this podcast downloaded episodes of this podcast downloaded episodes of this podcast ever, so Wow. ever, so Wow. ever, so Wow. >> Um you know, you got a lot of Huberman >> Um you know, you got a lot of Huberman >> Um you know, you got a lot of Huberman podcast listener fans out there, so um podcast listener fans out there, so um podcast listener fans out there, so um >> they'll be reading if if they're smart >> they'll be reading if if they're smart >> they'll be reading if if they're smart and they and they want to be better, and they and they want to be better, and they and they want to be better, they want to feel enriched in all the they want to feel enriched in all the they want to feel enriched in all the ways. So let's talk about um ways. So let's talk about um ways. So let's talk about um >> Let's talk about individuals first and >> Let's talk about individuals first and >> Let's talk about individuals first and then I also want talk today about um then I also want talk today about um then I also want talk today about um interactions between people, which we interactions between people, which we interactions between people, which we probably haven't talked quite as much probably haven't talked quite as much probably haven't talked quite as much about, okay, at least not here. The about, okay, at least not here. The about, okay, at least not here. The self, right? We all have a a name, a self, right? We all have a a name, a self, right? We all have a a name, a self-concept. We wake up thinking and self-concept. We wake up thinking and self-concept. We wake up thinking and knowing essentially who we are, what knowing essentially who we are, what knowing essentially who we are, what bothers us, what we're excited about, bothers us, what we're excited about, bothers us, what we're excited about, and um and um and um the question I've been living with for a the question I've been living with for a the question I've been living with for a long time is how malleable is our long time is how malleable is our long time is how malleable is our self-view, right? Our and our self-view, right? Our and our self-view, right? Our and our relationship to our self and and we can relationship to our self and and we can relationship to our self and and we can define those, right? If we're not super define those, right? If we're not super define those, right? If we're not super comfortable or completely happy with our comfortable or completely happy with our comfortable or completely happy with our relationship to ourselves, relationship to ourselves, relationship to ourselves, how much flexibility is there on the how much flexibility is there on the how much flexibility is there on the on that whole picture? on that whole picture? on that whole picture? I think it's very malleable. I think I think it's very malleable. I think I think it's very malleable. I think there's a lot of flexibility, but we there's a lot of flexibility, but we there's a lot of flexibility, but we have to be willing to look at ourselves. have to be willing to look at ourselves. have to be willing to look at ourselves. You know, very often we're not looking You know, very often we're not looking You know, very often we're not looking at ourselves. We're afraid of what we're at ourselves. We're afraid of what we're at ourselves. We're afraid of what we're going to find or going to find or going to find or um um um we don't know how to understand or how we don't know how to understand or how we don't know how to understand or how to bring change, so so we don't look at to bring change, so so we don't look at to bring change, so so we don't look at ourselves and then we we can see ourselves and then we we can see ourselves and then we we can see ourselves as inflexible and and and ourselves as inflexible and and and ourselves as inflexible and and and think that we're just stuck in the same think that we're just stuck in the same think that we're just stuck in the same place over time, but if we're willing to place over time, but if we're willing to place over time, but if we're willing to look at ourselves and we bring the look at ourselves and we bring the look at ourselves and we bring the compassionate curiosity to ourselves of, compassionate curiosity to ourselves of, compassionate curiosity to ourselves of, hey, what what can I learn about myself hey, what what can I learn about myself hey, what what can I learn about myself and what might I be interested in and what might I be interested in and what might I be interested in changing in myself or in emphasizing in changing in myself or in emphasizing in changing in myself or in emphasizing in myself, we we I think we can bring a lot myself, we we I think we can bring a lot myself, we we I think we can bring a lot a lot of change. And the title of your a lot of change. And the title of your a lot of change. And the title of your book, uh What's Going Right, uh is that book, uh What's Going Right, uh is that book, uh What's Going Right, uh is that a good lens to start uh looking through a good lens to start uh looking through a good lens to start uh looking through when we look at our self, like like what when we look at our self, like like what when we look at our self, like like what what works, you know, um 10 fingers, 10 what works, you know, um 10 fingers, 10 what works, you know, um 10 fingers, 10 toes, in my case I'm that a good place toes, in my case I'm that a good place toes, in my case I'm that a good place to start, uh to start, uh to start, uh you know, that I you know, that I you know, that I feel some sense of agency over a number feel some sense of agency over a number feel some sense of agency over a number of areas of my life. Is that the way to of areas of my life. Is that the way to of areas of my life. Is that the way to start wading into the questions about start wading into the questions about start wading into the questions about self? self? self? >> I think to start off with what's going >> I think to start off with what's going >> I think to start off with what's going right, it's not just a way of looking at right, it's not just a way of looking at right, it's not just a way of looking at it because it feels better, but it but it because it feels better, but it but it because it feels better, but it but it's consistent with truth. I mean, it's consistent with truth. I mean, it's consistent with truth. I mean, there's far more going right in any of there's far more going right in any of there's far more going right in any of us, in all of us, than there is going us, in all of us, than there is going us, in all of us, than there is going wrong if we're here, right? And if we're wrong if we're here, right? And if we're wrong if we're here, right? And if we're listening to to educational material, we listening to to educational material, we listening to to educational material, we want to better ourselves, there's so want to better ourselves, there's so want to better ourselves, there's so much more that's going right in us, and much more that's going right in us, and much more that's going right in us, and it's a good place for us to start it's a good place for us to start it's a good place for us to start because it helps us to be able to look because it helps us to be able to look because it helps us to be able to look at what's not going the way we want it at what's not going the way we want it at what's not going the way we want it to be, what we where we want to bring to be, what we where we want to bring to be, what we where we want to bring change in our lives, but we should start change in our lives, but we should start change in our lives, but we should start from a position of strength. And the from a position of strength. And the from a position of strength. And the mental health system mental health system mental health system really tells us to look at ourselves in really tells us to look at ourselves in really tells us to look at ourselves in the opposite way, to look at ourselves the opposite way, to look at ourselves the opposite way, to look at ourselves through what is going wrong and to put through what is going wrong and to put through what is going wrong and to put labels on ourselves that that often just labels on ourselves that that often just labels on ourselves that that often just make us feel worse or make us feel more make us feel worse or make us feel more make us feel worse or make us feel more helpless or hopeless in understanding, helpless or hopeless in understanding, helpless or hopeless in understanding, but but if we start with what's going but but if we start with what's going but but if we start with what's going right and we bring curiosity to right and we bring curiosity to right and we bring curiosity to ourselves, then there are processes we ourselves, then there are processes we ourselves, then there are processes we can follow to understand and to bring can follow to understand and to bring can follow to understand and to bring real change. What are some of those real change. What are some of those real change. What are some of those processes that um people could use to processes that um people could use to processes that um people could use to explore and if you would, what are some explore and if you would, what are some explore and if you would, what are some questions that people can or thoughts or questions that people can or thoughts or questions that people can or thoughts or or landscapes to explore where people or landscapes to explore where people or landscapes to explore where people can ping themselves with specific can ping themselves with specific can ping themselves with specific questions? So good places to start are questions? So good places to start are questions? So good places to start are they looking at your self-talk. You they looking at your self-talk. You they looking at your self-talk. You know, what are you saying to yourself in know, what are you saying to yourself in know, what are you saying to yourself in quiet moments when no one else is quiet moments when no one else is quiet moments when no one else is listening or when there's there's a listening or when there's there's a listening or when there's there's a pause in the action in your life, what pause in the action in your life, what pause in the action in your life, what are you saying to yourself? What are you saying to yourself? What are you saying to yourself? What messages are you giving yourself? And messages are you giving yourself? And messages are you giving yourself? And often times we're telling ourselves often times we're telling ourselves often times we're telling ourselves things that about ourselves that are things that about ourselves that are things that about ourselves that are often negative or often critical and often negative or often critical and often negative or often critical and we're not aware that we're we're saying we're not aware that we're we're saying we're not aware that we're we're saying these things over and over to ourselves. these things over and over to ourselves. these things over and over to ourselves. So so that's just one strategy. And So so that's just one strategy. And So so that's just one strategy. And another strategy can be to think about another strategy can be to think about another strategy can be to think about the life narrative that we're telling the life narrative that we're telling the life narrative that we're telling ourselves. So if you just tell yourself ourselves. So if you just tell yourself ourselves. So if you just tell yourself about yourself or if you're telling about yourself or if you're telling about yourself or if you're telling someone else about you, what what is it someone else about you, what what is it someone else about you, what what is it that you say? What is it that you that that you say? What is it that you that that you say? What is it that you that you say in a reflexive way and does it you say in a reflexive way and does it you say in a reflexive way and does it match what's real and true about your match what's real and true about your match what's real and true about your life? You know, we both life? You know, we both life? You know, we both all people have these two foundational all people have these two foundational all people have these two foundational pillars and and in the first part of the pillars and and in the first part of the pillars and and in the first part of the series that we did in 2023, we really series that we did in 2023, we really series that we did in 2023, we really sort of hashed this out and it was the sort of hashed this out and it was the sort of hashed this out and it was the first time I really put together, hey, first time I really put together, hey, first time I really put together, hey, there's a structure of self and we all there's a structure of self and we all there's a structure of self and we all share this and I'd you know, I've been share this and I'd you know, I've been share this and I'd you know, I've been thinking along these lines, but the our thinking along these lines, but the our thinking along these lines, but the our our talk helped me to pull together, our talk helped me to pull together, our talk helped me to pull together, hey, there there's something that hey, there there's something that hey, there there's something that applies to all of us. Just because we're applies to all of us. Just because we're applies to all of us. Just because we're human and we have a human brain and a human and we have a human brain and a human and we have a human brain and a human mind, there is a structure of self human mind, there is a structure of self human mind, there is a structure of self and a function of self and these and a function of self and these and a function of self and these foundational pillars are where we can foundational pillars are where we can foundational pillars are where we can look to understand ourselves better and look to understand ourselves better and look to understand ourselves better and to bring better health. So if we are to bring better health. So if we are to bring better health. So if we are aware of where to look and how to look aware of where to look and how to look aware of where to look and how to look and we're willing to look because we're and we're willing to look because we're and we're willing to look because we're not afraid of what we're going to find not afraid of what we're going to find not afraid of what we're going to find and we have we have a belief that we can and we have we have a belief that we can and we have we have a belief that we can bring change, then this is how we we bring change, then this is how we we bring change, then this is how we we bring flexibility and malleability and bring flexibility and malleability and bring flexibility and malleability and and we can approach ourselves feeling and we can approach ourselves feeling and we can approach ourselves feeling really good that, hey, if I do this, I really good that, hey, if I do this, I really good that, hey, if I do this, I am going to be able to make things am going to be able to make things am going to be able to make things better. There's so much hopefulness to better. There's so much hopefulness to better. There's so much hopefulness to that and it's it's reasonably grounded that and it's it's reasonably grounded that and it's it's reasonably grounded hopefulness. hopefulness. hopefulness. I have a question that might seem like a I have a question that might seem like a I have a question that might seem like a a leap somewhere else, but it it I a leap somewhere else, but it it I a leap somewhere else, but it it I promise it ties back to what we're promise it ties back to what we're promise it ties back to what we're talking about. In your experience with talking about. In your experience with talking about. In your experience with psychiatry and the brain and patients psychiatry and the brain and patients psychiatry and the brain and patients and interacting with people in your own and interacting with people in your own and interacting with people in your own life, life, life, do you think that do you think that do you think that there's tremendous variation or little there's tremendous variation or little there's tremendous variation or little variation in how state-dependent people variation in how state-dependent people variation in how state-dependent people are? Um you know, are? Um you know, are? Um you know, some people it seems um some people it seems um some people it seems um they you know, they're so affiliative they you know, they're so affiliative they you know, they're so affiliative that when they're in uh relating to that when they're in uh relating to that when they're in uh relating to somebody else, they they think and feel somebody else, they they think and feel somebody else, they they think and feel completely differently than they do when completely differently than they do when completely differently than they do when they're on their own. Mhm. And not not they're on their own. Mhm. And not not they're on their own. Mhm. And not not necessarily even extroverted to for that necessarily even extroverted to for that necessarily even extroverted to for that to be true. Um but that when they're to be true. Um but that when they're to be true. Um but that when they're suddenly alone, um that that internal suddenly alone, um that that internal suddenly alone, um that that internal state is very different, almost like state is very different, almost like state is very different, almost like it's two different lives. Mhm. Right? it's two different lives. Mhm. Right? it's two different lives. Mhm. Right? There's a reason why I'm asking this, There's a reason why I'm asking this, There's a reason why I'm asking this, but I'm wondering about the role of but I'm wondering about the role of but I'm wondering about the role of state dependence in how we think and how state dependence in how we think and how state dependence in how we think and how we feel and how we uh think about the we feel and how we uh think about the we feel and how we uh think about the things around us and think about things around us and think about things around us and think about ourselves. For most of us, life is ourselves. For most of us, life is ourselves. For most of us, life is moving very fast and life has a lot of moving very fast and life has a lot of moving very fast and life has a lot of stressors in it and what ends up stressors in it and what ends up stressors in it and what ends up happening is we're kind of rushing just happening is we're kind of rushing just happening is we're kind of rushing just to keep up with ourselves. And and when to keep up with ourselves. And and when to keep up with ourselves. And and when that happens, we become very that happens, we become very that happens, we become very state-dependent as opposed to being able state-dependent as opposed to being able state-dependent as opposed to being able to observe ourselves, to so to be able to observe ourselves, to so to be able to observe ourselves, to so to be able to see, okay, I'm here and this is what to see, okay, I'm here and this is what to see, okay, I'm here and this is what I'm doing and this is the people I'm I'm doing and this is the people I'm I'm doing and this is the people I'm with and how I'm feeling and how I'm with and how I'm feeling and how I'm with and how I'm feeling and how I'm behaving. To be able to observe behaving. To be able to observe behaving. To be able to observe ourselves is how we knit together one ourselves is how we knit together one ourselves is how we knit together one self across situations. So we can be self across situations. So we can be self across situations. So we can be aware I'm different in one situation aware I'm different in one situation aware I'm different in one situation than another, right? So so some of the than another, right? So so some of the than another, right? So so some of the behavior then and the sense of self is behavior then and the sense of self is behavior then and the sense of self is state-dependent, but there's a whole state-dependent, but there's a whole state-dependent, but there's a whole self that's riding above all of it, self that's riding above all of it, self that's riding above all of it, that's observing us and knitting us that's observing us and knitting us that's observing us and knitting us together. What sometimes gets called an together. What sometimes gets called an together. What sometimes gets called an observing ego and this is how we can observing ego and this is how we can observing ego and this is how we can both be state-dependent, but also have a both be state-dependent, but also have a both be state-dependent, but also have a self that that is true across all of self that that is true across all of self that that is true across all of those states. those states. those states. I'd like to take a quick break and I'd like to take a quick break and I'd like to take a quick break and acknowledge our sponsor, Helix Sleep. acknowledge our sponsor, Helix Sleep. acknowledge our sponsor, Helix Sleep. Helix Sleep makes mattresses and pillows Helix Sleep makes mattresses and pillows Helix Sleep makes mattresses and pillows that are customized to your unique sleep that are customized to your unique sleep that are customized to your unique sleep needs. Now, I've spoken many times needs. Now, I've spoken many times needs. 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Again, that's betterhelp.com/huberman. that's betterhelp.com/huberman. that's betterhelp.com/huberman. When somebody sits down to think about When somebody sits down to think about When somebody sits down to think about their strengths or to think about their their strengths or to think about their their strengths or to think about their self-talk or um self-talk or um self-talk or um to just think about what they're made of to just think about what they're made of to just think about what they're made of and how they want to change or not and how they want to change or not and how they want to change or not change certain things, build on certain change certain things, build on certain change certain things, build on certain strengths, strengths, strengths, when and how should they do it? Yeah, I when and how should they do it? Yeah, I when and how should they do it? Yeah, I think all we need to bring is curiosity. think all we need to bring is curiosity. think all we need to bring is curiosity. Right? That's all and and curiosity Right? That's all and and curiosity Right? That's all and and curiosity doesn't have to be overly serious or or doesn't have to be overly serious or or doesn't have to be overly serious or or worried, right? It doesn't have to have worried, right? It doesn't have to have worried, right? It doesn't have to have a gravity to it. I mean, it can, but it a gravity to it. I mean, it can, but it a gravity to it. I mean, it can, but it can also be very light-hearted. You can also be very light-hearted. You can also be very light-hearted. You know, there's so many things that we're know, there's so many things that we're know, there's so many things that we're curious about, so many things we want to curious about, so many things we want to curious about, so many things we want to learn about and this is great. It's learn about and this is great. It's learn about and this is great. It's great for our brains and it's great for great for our brains and it's great for great for our brains and it's great for our health to be curious and to want to our health to be curious and to want to our health to be curious and to want to learn. But so often, what we leave out learn. But so often, what we leave out learn. But so often, what we leave out of that equation is being curious about of that equation is being curious about of that equation is being curious about ourselves. Right? And and that can be a ourselves. Right? And and that can be a ourselves. Right? And and that can be a sort of high-spirited thing to do of, sort of high-spirited thing to do of, sort of high-spirited thing to do of, you know, what is there in me that runs you know, what is there in me that runs you know, what is there in me that runs through all the things that I do? How is through all the things that I do? How is through all the things that I do? How is it that I feel so different doing one it that I feel so different doing one it that I feel so different doing one thing than another? What are the common thing than another? What are the common thing than another? What are the common threads of me that run throughout my threads of me that run throughout my threads of me that run throughout my life? You know, this is this is a great life? You know, this is this is a great life? You know, this is this is a great way to approach what's going right in way to approach what's going right in way to approach what's going right in us, right? To be curious about us, right? To be curious about us, right? To be curious about ourselves. And it's from there that it's ourselves. And it's from there that it's ourselves. And it's from there that it's easier to see, wow, in one certain kind easier to see, wow, in one certain kind easier to see, wow, in one certain kind of situation, I'm really not doing as of situation, I'm really not doing as of situation, I'm really not doing as well. Right? Or I'm not as happy. Like, well. Right? Or I'm not as happy. Like, well. Right? Or I'm not as happy. Like, then we can think about that and we then we can think about that and we then we can think about that and we don't have to be afraid of it. So, don't have to be afraid of it. So, don't have to be afraid of it. So, bringing curiosity to ourselves, what bringing curiosity to ourselves, what bringing curiosity to ourselves, what runs through everything we do, and also runs through everything we do, and also runs through everything we do, and also how we're different in different how we're different in different how we're different in different situations, can help lead us to all situations, can help lead us to all situations, can help lead us to all sorts of answers about what makes us sorts of answers about what makes us sorts of answers about what makes us happy and what doesn't. When are we happy and what doesn't. When are we happy and what doesn't. When are we presenting a true and honest self? When presenting a true and honest self? When presenting a true and honest self? When are we presenting a false self that even are we presenting a false self that even are we presenting a false self that even we know is false. So, I think the only we know is false. So, I think the only we know is false. So, I think the only crucial ingredient is curiosity and and crucial ingredient is curiosity and and crucial ingredient is curiosity and and then we can approach with seriousness then we can approach with seriousness then we can approach with seriousness and gravity or we can approach with and gravity or we can approach with and gravity or we can approach with light-heartedness. We can be alone or we light-heartedness. We can be alone or we light-heartedness. We can be alone or we can be thinking with someone else. can be thinking with someone else. can be thinking with someone else. There's all sorts of good places that There's all sorts of good places that There's all sorts of good places that curiosity can take us. curiosity can take us. curiosity can take us. It's interesting that you talked about It's interesting that you talked about It's interesting that you talked about true self versus false self. Um I think true self versus false self. Um I think true self versus false self. Um I think the more state dependence we have, the the more state dependence we have, the the more state dependence we have, the more confusing that becomes, right? And more confusing that becomes, right? And more confusing that becomes, right? And and I think and I think and I think perhaps even more so in in this day and perhaps even more so in in this day and perhaps even more so in in this day and age, age, age, there seems to be not a complete, but at there seems to be not a complete, but at there seems to be not a complete, but at least to me, a kind of partial erosion least to me, a kind of partial erosion least to me, a kind of partial erosion of etiquette. I'm not saying this to of etiquette. I'm not saying this to of etiquette. I'm not saying this to encourage people to be more rigid. It encourage people to be more rigid. It encourage people to be more rigid. It just seems to me that just seems to me that just seems to me that I'm 50 now. When I was growing up, I'm 50 now. When I was growing up, I'm 50 now. When I was growing up, seemed like people would dress and act seemed like people would dress and act seemed like people would dress and act one way in one context and dress and act one way in one context and dress and act one way in one context and dress and act one way in a different context and one way in a different context and one way in a different context and there's some overlap, obviously. there's some overlap, obviously. there's some overlap, obviously. But now, there's this sort of propensity But now, there's this sort of propensity But now, there's this sort of propensity for for for not just oversharing, but there's not just oversharing, but there's not just oversharing, but there's information from all corners of the information from all corners of the information from all corners of the world coming through our devices all the world coming through our devices all the world coming through our devices all the time and people are putting out time and people are putting out time and people are putting out information about many facets of their information about many facets of their information about many facets of their life all the time. Even people I went to life all the time. Even people I went to life all the time. Even people I went to high school with who weren't high school with who weren't high school with who weren't public-facing in the traditional sense public-facing in the traditional sense public-facing in the traditional sense are putting up pictures of their kids are putting up pictures of their kids are putting up pictures of their kids and what they ate and this and the the and what they ate and this and the the and what they ate and this and the the wins and the losses and wins and the losses and wins and the losses and it's a very odd thing to do when in fact it's a very odd thing to do when in fact it's a very odd thing to do when in fact we evolved for so long just kind of we evolved for so long just kind of we evolved for so long just kind of experiencing ourself experiencing ourself experiencing ourself separate from all the other activities separate from all the other activities separate from all the other activities that we were doing and certainly that that we were doing and certainly that that we were doing and certainly that that other people are doing. In your that other people are doing. In your that other people are doing. In your clinical practice, are you seeing clinical practice, are you seeing clinical practice, are you seeing more challenges with people creating more challenges with people creating more challenges with people creating separation between kind of aspects of separation between kind of aspects of separation between kind of aspects of self and aspects of life because of all self and aspects of life because of all self and aspects of life because of all the the the information coming at them the the the information coming at them the the the information coming at them and and maybe even that they're putting and and maybe even that they're putting and and maybe even that they're putting in the world? in the world? in the world? I think it can be different depending I think it can be different depending I think it can be different depending upon what the person is doing, how upon what the person is doing, how upon what the person is doing, how they're using that information. So, so they're using that information. So, so they're using that information. So, so if you think of falseness of of self, if you think of falseness of of self, if you think of falseness of of self, you know, you know, you know, it's possible a person can be engaged in it's possible a person can be engaged in it's possible a person can be engaged in something that that even they themselves something that that even they themselves something that that even they themselves know isn't real, right? So, so wanting know isn't real, right? So, so wanting know isn't real, right? So, so wanting everyone to see what's what's best in my everyone to see what's what's best in my everyone to see what's what's best in my life and to and to think that, you know, life and to and to think that, you know, life and to and to think that, you know, I'm doing really well, you know, and and I'm doing really well, you know, and and I'm doing really well, you know, and and maybe I'm doing that to hide something. maybe I'm doing that to hide something. maybe I'm doing that to hide something. Like, why am I doing that, right? If if Like, why am I doing that, right? If if Like, why am I doing that, right? If if I want to appear externally differently I want to appear externally differently I want to appear externally differently than than how I am, there's a good place than than how I am, there's a good place than than how I am, there's a good place for curiosity about the falseness of for curiosity about the falseness of for curiosity about the falseness of that. What am I trying to protect that. What am I trying to protect that. What am I trying to protect against? You know, why is it that I want against? You know, why is it that I want against? You know, why is it that I want people to see me in a certain way that people to see me in a certain way that people to see me in a certain way that might be different from how my life might be different from how my life might be different from how my life actually is if it has, you know, not actually is if it has, you know, not actually is if it has, you know, not just all wins in it, right? But but you just all wins in it, right? But but you just all wins in it, right? But but you know, stressors too that might not be as know, stressors too that might not be as know, stressors too that might not be as glamorous. So, so that's one way we can glamorous. So, so that's one way we can glamorous. So, so that's one way we can use those resources. Another way can be use those resources. Another way can be use those resources. Another way can be to engage in ways that are more true to to engage in ways that are more true to to engage in ways that are more true to self. So, someone who has an interest or self. So, someone who has an interest or self. So, someone who has an interest or a passion that it's hard to find people, a passion that it's hard to find people, a passion that it's hard to find people, you know, right around them, uh but they you know, right around them, uh but they you know, right around them, uh but they can find that more distantly. Or or can find that more distantly. Or or can find that more distantly. Or or people who have a lot of sensibility and people who have a lot of sensibility and people who have a lot of sensibility and compassion for for some of the difficult compassion for for some of the difficult compassion for for some of the difficult things in the world who can find kindred things in the world who can find kindred things in the world who can find kindred spirits through social media. So, so I I spirits through social media. So, so I I spirits through social media. So, so I I think we can use or misuse anything think we can use or misuse anything think we can use or misuse anything around us to to either be we can use it around us to to either be we can use it around us to to either be we can use it to be closer to ourselves and and to to be closer to ourselves and and to to be closer to ourselves and and to have a stronger sense of self, right? Or have a stronger sense of self, right? Or have a stronger sense of self, right? Or we can use it to distract from who we we can use it to distract from who we we can use it to distract from who we really are and to maybe find solace really are and to maybe find solace really are and to maybe find solace somewhere else or find accolades somewhere else or find accolades somewhere else or find accolades somewhere outside of us because we're somewhere outside of us because we're somewhere outside of us because we're protecting against something. So, I I protecting against something. So, I I protecting against something. So, I I think the the important point is is think the the important point is is think the the important point is is always to be honest with ourselves. And always to be honest with ourselves. And always to be honest with ourselves. And if we bring compassionate curiosity, if we bring compassionate curiosity, if we bring compassionate curiosity, then we're not mad at ourselves and that then we're not mad at ourselves and that then we're not mad at ourselves and that we're not coming at ourselves of, what's we're not coming at ourselves of, what's we're not coming at ourselves of, what's wrong with me or why why can't I do this wrong with me or why why can't I do this wrong with me or why why can't I do this thing better or that thing better or why thing better or that thing better or why thing better or that thing better or why don't people like me more? Whatever it don't people like me more? Whatever it don't people like me more? Whatever it may be, right? There there there are may be, right? There there there are may be, right? There there there are ways that we can ways that we can ways that we can you know, we can guide ourselves away you know, we can guide ourselves away you know, we can guide ourselves away from from honesty and truth. And if we from from honesty and truth. And if we from from honesty and truth. And if we look at ourselves, we don't have to be look at ourselves, we don't have to be look at ourselves, we don't have to be afraid of what we find. Maybe if we're afraid of what we find. Maybe if we're afraid of what we find. Maybe if we're worried people aren't liking us, we're worried people aren't liking us, we're worried people aren't liking us, we're we're spending time with not a healthy we're spending time with not a healthy we're spending time with not a healthy group of people, right? Or or maybe group of people, right? Or or maybe group of people, right? Or or maybe there's something in in myself I need to there's something in in myself I need to there's something in in myself I need to change if I'm feeling that. So, the key change if I'm feeling that. So, the key change if I'm feeling that. So, the key is just bringing honesty and curiosity is just bringing honesty and curiosity is just bringing honesty and curiosity and not being so afraid or so negative and not being so afraid or so negative and not being so afraid or so negative towards ourselves that we're going to towards ourselves that we're going to towards ourselves that we're going to hide from what it is that that we can hide from what it is that that we can hide from what it is that that we can find to knit us together. Yeah, I'm not find to knit us together. Yeah, I'm not find to knit us together. Yeah, I'm not trying to demonize social media, but we trying to demonize social media, but we trying to demonize social media, but we are in a strange new version of humanity are in a strange new version of humanity are in a strange new version of humanity where where where let's say somebody's sitting by let's say somebody's sitting by let's say somebody's sitting by themselves, chances are themselves, chances are themselves, chances are their experience is vastly different their experience is vastly different their experience is vastly different than it would have been 30 years ago than it would have been 30 years ago than it would have been 30 years ago because they are because they are because they are most likely getting a lot of information most likely getting a lot of information most likely getting a lot of information about what other people are doing. about what other people are doing. about what other people are doing. Could be good information. Could be good information. Could be good information. Um could be interesting, but Um could be interesting, but Um could be interesting, but nonetheless, it's very very different nonetheless, it's very very different nonetheless, it's very very different alone state. And or they are doing alone state. And or they are doing alone state. And or they are doing things that hopefully they enjoy, things that hopefully they enjoy, things that hopefully they enjoy, but there's this additional layer where but there's this additional layer where but there's this additional layer where it's put out into the world. This is it's put out into the world. This is it's put out into the world. This is very unusual. So, the reason I'm asking very unusual. So, the reason I'm asking very unusual. So, the reason I'm asking about this in the context of about this in the context of about this in the context of addressing the self, exploring the self addressing the self, exploring the self addressing the self, exploring the self is that is that is that I wonder to what extent being really I wonder to what extent being really I wonder to what extent being really happy with oneself happy with oneself happy with oneself at some level involves being able to at some level involves being able to at some level involves being able to be curious and explore different ways of be curious and explore different ways of be curious and explore different ways of being and ways of thinking being and ways of thinking being and ways of thinking without the impulse of sharing that and without the impulse of sharing that and without the impulse of sharing that and without the without the without the feedback comparison feedback comparison feedback comparison of what other people are doing. of what other people are doing. of what other people are doing. Because Because Because >> [clears throat] >> [clears throat] >> [clears throat] >> the moment we see something else, >> the moment we see something else, >> the moment we see something else, there's more sensory input or the moment there's more sensory input or the moment there's more sensory input or the moment that we think what we're doing it needs that we think what we're doing it needs that we think what we're doing it needs to be shared, it changes the experience. to be shared, it changes the experience. to be shared, it changes the experience. It's not truly an alone experience. It's not truly an alone experience. It's not truly an alone experience. Right. Uh and I don't think it matters Right. Uh and I don't think it matters Right. Uh and I don't think it matters if you put it out to one if you put it out to one if you put it out to one follower or to a billion followers, it's follower or to a billion followers, it's follower or to a billion followers, it's it's still externalizing this thing that it's still externalizing this thing that it's still externalizing this thing that for thousands of years was just us with for thousands of years was just us with for thousands of years was just us with our thoughts, us with our emotions. And our thoughts, us with our emotions. And our thoughts, us with our emotions. And And so, processing time alone has And so, processing time alone has And so, processing time alone has become, I believe, a very, very become, I believe, a very, very become, I believe, a very, very different thing altogether. different thing altogether. different thing altogether. Yeah, I think that's true. I think Yeah, I think that's true. I think Yeah, I think that's true. I think there's a sweet spot of connectedness to there's a sweet spot of connectedness to there's a sweet spot of connectedness to others. Right? And we know that it's not others. Right? And we know that it's not others. Right? And we know that it's not good to have too little, right? That good to have too little, right? That good to have too little, right? That that isolation isn't good for us. But that isolation isn't good for us. But that isolation isn't good for us. But But where the modern world has gone is But where the modern world has gone is But where the modern world has gone is is it is offers us too much the the is it is offers us too much the the is it is offers us too much the the opposite, right? Where there's not opposite, right? Where there's not opposite, right? Where there's not enough aloneness. Where if we're enough aloneness. Where if we're enough aloneness. Where if we're overconnected, then in order to to to overconnected, then in order to to to overconnected, then in order to to to decide what it is we even like or decide what it is we even like or decide what it is we even like or prefer, how we feel about things, we're prefer, how we feel about things, we're prefer, how we feel about things, we're looking for external cues. Right? So, looking for external cues. Right? So, looking for external cues. Right? So, that sweet spot of having some external that sweet spot of having some external that sweet spot of having some external check-ins, how does the world around me check-ins, how does the world around me check-ins, how does the world around me feel? How do people I like and trust feel? How do people I like and trust feel? How do people I like and trust feel? How do people who seem like me feel? How do people who seem like me feel? How do people who seem like me feel? How do people who seem different feel? How do people who seem different feel? How do people who seem different from me feel? It It's good to have those from me feel? It It's good to have those from me feel? It It's good to have those tests outside, but have enough aloneness tests outside, but have enough aloneness tests outside, but have enough aloneness that I am still thinking about myself that I am still thinking about myself that I am still thinking about myself and the questions, right, of of life, and the questions, right, of of life, and the questions, right, of of life, the questions of my own life, I'm the questions of my own life, I'm the questions of my own life, I'm thinking about on my own before I'm thinking about on my own before I'm thinking about on my own before I'm pinging outside of me for you know, for pinging outside of me for you know, for pinging outside of me for you know, for information or validation or even information or validation or even information or validation or even guidance. guidance. guidance. I'm willing to bet that many people will I'm willing to bet that many people will I'm willing to bet that many people will find just the find just the find just the being alone introspective process to be being alone introspective process to be being alone introspective process to be pretty anxiety-provoking. pretty anxiety-provoking. pretty anxiety-provoking. Um in fact, there's been a little bit of Um in fact, there's been a little bit of Um in fact, there's been a little bit of a a a um semi-comedic exchange online recently um semi-comedic exchange online recently um semi-comedic exchange online recently because uh because uh because uh um actually our mutual um actually our mutual um actually our mutual uh friend David Senra and David Senra uh friend David Senra and David Senra uh friend David Senra and David Senra has a podcast with this very podcast has a podcast with this very podcast has a podcast with this very podcast production company. production company. production company. Um Um Um He sat down with Marc Andreessen of, you He sat down with Marc Andreessen of, you He sat down with Marc Andreessen of, you know, founded Netscape, a16z know, founded Netscape, a16z know, founded Netscape, a16z investments. And Mark made the statement investments. And Mark made the statement investments. And Mark made the statement that was very provocative, which was, that was very provocative, which was, that was very provocative, which was, you know, great men of history didn't uh you know, great men of history didn't uh you know, great men of history didn't uh sit around thinking about their sit around thinking about their sit around thinking about their thoughts, you know? And And of course, I thoughts, you know? And And of course, I thoughts, you know? And And of course, I knowing Mark, um and he's a friend of knowing Mark, um and he's a friend of knowing Mark, um and he's a friend of mine, I I I think that was a bit mine, I I I think that was a bit mine, I I I think that was a bit tongue-in-cheek. I think he was tongue-in-cheek. I think he was tongue-in-cheek. I think he was I think he was pointing toward, I don't I think he was pointing toward, I don't I think he was pointing toward, I don't want to speak for him, but I think he want to speak for him, but I think he want to speak for him, but I think he was pointing toward the idea that too was pointing toward the idea that too was pointing toward the idea that too much thinking and not enough doing can much thinking and not enough doing can much thinking and not enough doing can be self-destructive. Of course, the be self-destructive. Of course, the be self-destructive. Of course, the media ran with it and in classic media ran with it and in classic media ran with it and in classic Andreessenian fashion, he Andreessenian fashion, he Andreessenian fashion, he just doubled down and tripled down on just doubled down and tripled down on just doubled down and tripled down on that message, which was fun for a while, that message, which was fun for a while, that message, which was fun for a while, actually, because it got people thinking actually, because it got people thinking actually, because it got people thinking about the role of introspection versus about the role of introspection versus about the role of introspection versus the role of doing. the role of doing. the role of doing. And And And I have to say I think what he I have to say I think what he I have to say I think what he contributed with those statements, contributed with those statements, contributed with those statements, however provocative, however provocative, however provocative, um um um were were were useful in thinking like, how much useful in thinking like, how much useful in thinking like, how much thinking, how much doing when exploring thinking, how much doing when exploring thinking, how much doing when exploring the self. We don't want to spiral into the self. We don't want to spiral into the self. We don't want to spiral into a tunnel that we can't get out of. a tunnel that we can't get out of. a tunnel that we can't get out of. But we also want to make sure that we're But we also want to make sure that we're But we also want to make sure that we're putting things out into the world. So, putting things out into the world. So, putting things out into the world. So, when you have a patient that is not when you have a patient that is not when you have a patient that is not depressed, is um maybe just struggling, depressed, is um maybe just struggling, depressed, is um maybe just struggling, right? Um so, no no clinical issue that right? Um so, no no clinical issue that right? Um so, no no clinical issue that needs dealing with first. needs dealing with first. needs dealing with first. How much do you encourage them to How much do you encourage them to How much do you encourage them to explore the self through doing versus explore the self through doing versus explore the self through doing versus thinking about their thinking? thinking about their thinking? thinking about their thinking? It depends very much on who is that It depends very much on who is that It depends very much on who is that person, right? And And And where do they person, right? And And And where do they person, right? And And And where do they need to face to sort of break new ground need to face to sort of break new ground need to face to sort of break new ground of self? And you you know, you mentioned of self? And you you know, you mentioned of self? And you you know, you mentioned that most people would find the idea of that most people would find the idea of that most people would find the idea of just being with themselves to to be just being with themselves to to be just being with themselves to to be anxiety-provoking. And I think that anxiety-provoking. And I think that anxiety-provoking. And I think that that's unfortunate. I think that comes that's unfortunate. I think that comes that's unfortunate. I think that comes from a lack of leadership in the mental from a lack of leadership in the mental from a lack of leadership in the mental health field and then the stigma of health field and then the stigma of health field and then the stigma of mental health and and our fears, those mental health and and our fears, those mental health and and our fears, those black box fears that we don't black box fears that we don't black box fears that we don't understand. So, we're afraid of what we understand. So, we're afraid of what we understand. So, we're afraid of what we don't understand. What we don't don't understand. What we don't don't understand. What we don't understand is ourselves. So So, then the understand is ourselves. So So, then the understand is ourselves. So So, then the idea of being with ourselves becomes idea of being with ourselves becomes idea of being with ourselves becomes very anxiety-provoking. very anxiety-provoking. very anxiety-provoking. And I think that's not good. I I I think And I think that's not good. I I I think And I think that's not good. I I I think there are ways that we can go about there are ways that we can go about there are ways that we can go about being with ourselves that we don't have being with ourselves that we don't have being with ourselves that we don't have to be afraid of and say, if I if I do to be afraid of and say, if I if I do to be afraid of and say, if I if I do that, hey, it's going to be interesting that, hey, it's going to be interesting that, hey, it's going to be interesting what I'm going to find, right? And And what I'm going to find, right? And And what I'm going to find, right? And And the reflection and the thoughts and the the reflection and the thoughts and the the reflection and the thoughts and the ideas, the learning that comes from it ideas, the learning that comes from it ideas, the learning that comes from it is going to guide me towards the best is going to guide me towards the best is going to guide me towards the best balance for me. Right? So, there are balance for me. Right? So, there are balance for me. Right? So, there are some people who are very assertive, some people who are very assertive, some people who are very assertive, right? And they want to have high levels right? And they want to have high levels right? And they want to have high levels of doing in the world, but they still of doing in the world, but they still of doing in the world, but they still need some reflection. Right? There are need some reflection. Right? There are need some reflection. Right? There are other people who are going to be very other people who are going to be very other people who are going to be very reflective and they're going to be doing reflective and they're going to be doing reflective and they're going to be doing less. One less. One less. One We need to understand what profile works We need to understand what profile works We need to understand what profile works for for one person. It's not one exact for for one person. It's not one exact for for one person. It's not one exact place, but we kind of have a profile of place, but we kind of have a profile of place, but we kind of have a profile of reflection and of doing. And if if we reflection and of doing. And if if we reflection and of doing. And if if we are well-balanced, where we're asserting are well-balanced, where we're asserting are well-balanced, where we're asserting ourselves in the world at levels that ourselves in the world at levels that ourselves in the world at levels that work for us and we're finding pleasure work for us and we're finding pleasure work for us and we're finding pleasure and gratification in ways that are and gratification in ways that are and gratification in ways that are healthy, now we're finding balance. If healthy, now we're finding balance. If healthy, now we're finding balance. If there's too much doing and not enough there's too much doing and not enough there's too much doing and not enough reflection, not a lot of good will come reflection, not a lot of good will come reflection, not a lot of good will come from that. We won't We'll find that from that. We won't We'll find that from that. We won't We'll find that there's diminishing returns. We feel there's diminishing returns. We feel there's diminishing returns. We feel unsatisfied, right? Because we're doing unsatisfied, right? Because we're doing unsatisfied, right? Because we're doing too much and we're maybe taking less too much and we're maybe taking less too much and we're maybe taking less pleasure in what we're doing. But if pleasure in what we're doing. But if pleasure in what we're doing. But if we're doing too little, then, you know, we're doing too little, then, you know, we're doing too little, then, you know, we can feel idle and there can be a we can feel idle and there can be a we can feel idle and there can be a sense of learned helplessness. So, it's sense of learned helplessness. So, it's sense of learned helplessness. So, it's finding what is the optimal range for a finding what is the optimal range for a finding what is the optimal range for a person to be asserting themselves in the person to be asserting themselves in the person to be asserting themselves in the world and then finding gratification in world and then finding gratification in world and then finding gratification in what they're doing. And if that's going what they're doing. And if that's going what they're doing. And if that's going well, we'll see it. There There's a well, we'll see it. There There's a well, we'll see it. There There's a happy, balanced person. And if not, happy, balanced person. And if not, happy, balanced person. And if not, we'll be able to figure it out. Of what we'll be able to figure it out. Of what we'll be able to figure it out. Of what what is going on in that person? Is what is going on in that person? Is what is going on in that person? Is there an issue somewhere saying the there an issue somewhere saying the there an issue somewhere saying the unconscious mind, right? Are they unconscious mind, right? Are they unconscious mind, right? Are they asserting more and too much and asserting more and too much and asserting more and too much and reflecting too little? Right? So, by reflecting too little? Right? So, by reflecting too little? Right? So, by looking at the person and going through looking at the person and going through looking at the person and going through these steps, we can figure out what what these steps, we can figure out what what these steps, we can figure out what what serves that person best and how might serves that person best and how might serves that person best and how might they adjust from where they are now to they adjust from where they are now to they adjust from where they are now to get there? get there? get there? Is it true that there are just some Is it true that there are just some Is it true that there are just some people who just don't really think about people who just don't really think about people who just don't really think about their thinking very much? They just like their thinking very much? They just like their thinking very much? They just like do stuff. I mean, I've had friends say do stuff. I mean, I've had friends say do stuff. I mean, I've had friends say that, like, I don't that, like, I don't that, like, I don't I'm not I don't want to speak for me. I I'm not I don't want to speak for me. I I'm not I don't want to speak for me. I I'll speak for them. They'll say that I'll speak for them. They'll say that I'll speak for them. They'll say that they don't they don't they don't think about their thinking. They just think about their thinking. They just think about their thinking. They just get up in the morning and they brush get up in the morning and they brush get up in the morning and they brush their teeth and they use the bathroom their teeth and they use the bathroom their teeth and they use the bathroom and they go about their day and they and they go about their day and they and they go about their day and they they're not very introspective. They're they're not very introspective. They're they're not very introspective. They're They're not um they're not called to They're not um they're not called to They're not um they're not called to think about their thinking. think about their thinking. think about their thinking. And in some cases, these are people who And in some cases, these are people who And in some cases, these are people who are extremely busy, so maybe that's one are extremely busy, so maybe that's one are extremely busy, so maybe that's one reason. But in some cases, there are reason. But in some cases, there are reason. But in some cases, there are people who just people who just people who just you know, for whatever reason that that you know, for whatever reason that that you know, for whatever reason that that the mirror doesn't pop up in their the mirror doesn't pop up in their the mirror doesn't pop up in their cortex. It It It's they're busy doing cortex. It It It's they're busy doing cortex. It It It's they're busy doing and observing and then they seem and observing and then they seem and observing and then they seem functional. Are they missing out on on functional. Are they missing out on on functional. Are they missing out on on something fundamental or is that maybe something fundamental or is that maybe something fundamental or is that maybe even the goal? I I ask this from a very even the goal? I I ask this from a very even the goal? I I ask this from a very selfish perspective because growing up, selfish perspective because growing up, selfish perspective because growing up, I thought, how cool would that be to I thought, how cool would that be to I thought, how cool would that be to just like go through life, just do just like go through life, just do just like go through life, just do stuff, not think about stuff from the stuff, not think about stuff from the stuff, not think about stuff from the past too much, not reflect too much, past too much, not reflect too much, past too much, not reflect too much, just like get stuff done. And I And I'm just like get stuff done. And I And I'm just like get stuff done. And I And I'm a get-'er-done kind of person, but I I a get-'er-done kind of person, but I I a get-'er-done kind of person, but I I think like most people, I also think like most people, I also think like most people, I also I also I also I also I'm forced to think about my thinking I'm forced to think about my thinking I'm forced to think about my thinking from time to time. from time to time. from time to time. When you say forced, When you say forced, When you say forced, what then forces you what then forces you what then forces you >> Oh, sorry. It just spontaneously >> Oh, sorry. It just spontaneously >> Oh, sorry. It just spontaneously happens. I I reflect. Like, and the happens. I I reflect. Like, and the happens. I I reflect. Like, and the reflections usually I'll try and reflections usually I'll try and reflections usually I'll try and generalize these cuz it's This is not generalize these cuz it's This is not generalize these cuz it's This is not about me. The reflections generally come about me. The reflections generally come about me. The reflections generally come from from from like, like, like, is that something I should explore? is that something I should explore? is that something I should explore? Like, is that a problem? Is the way I'm Like, is that a problem? Is the way I'm Like, is that a problem? Is the way I'm thinking about or doing that a problem? thinking about or doing that a problem? thinking about or doing that a problem? Or is the way that they're thinking Or is the way that they're thinking Or is the way that they're thinking about and doing something a problem? about and doing something a problem? about and doing something a problem? This us-them thing is it it it is kind This us-them thing is it it it is kind This us-them thing is it it it is kind of what it boils down to and it's either of what it boils down to and it's either of what it boils down to and it's either positive or negative. I confess I don't positive or negative. I confess I don't positive or negative. I confess I don't really sit around a lot and think about really sit around a lot and think about really sit around a lot and think about all the things going right. I should. I all the things going right. I should. I all the things going right. I should. I have a gratitude practice. have a gratitude practice. have a gratitude practice. I generally don't sit around and think I generally don't sit around and think I generally don't sit around and think like, oh, like the the walls are up and like, oh, like the the walls are up and like, oh, like the the walls are up and the ceiling is intact and I'm fed and the ceiling is intact and I'm fed and the ceiling is intact and I'm fed and I'm healthy. And of course, until I'm healthy. And of course, until I'm healthy. And of course, until something bad happens and then we start something bad happens and then we start something bad happens and then we start doing we do our inventory, Right. Right. doing we do our inventory, Right. Right. doing we do our inventory, Right. Right. But yeah, I just kind of wonder whether But yeah, I just kind of wonder whether But yeah, I just kind of wonder whether or not there's a spectrum of of of or not there's a spectrum of of of or not there's a spectrum of of of reflexive self-exploration. People have reflexive self-exploration. People have reflexive self-exploration. People have different reflective capacity and people different reflective capacity and people different reflective capacity and people have different reflective interest. So, have different reflective interest. So, have different reflective interest. So, there are people who have more and that there are people who have more and that there are people who have more and that could serve them well to be more could serve them well to be more could serve them well to be more self-aware, but but also people may have self-aware, but but also people may have self-aware, but but also people may have less reflective capacity, but be more less reflective capacity, but be more less reflective capacity, but be more naturally generative. And then they're naturally generative. And then they're naturally generative. And then they're just moving forward. So, the question just moving forward. So, the question just moving forward. So, the question is, even though we have different um is, even though we have different um is, even though we have different um natural levels [clears throat] of of natural levels [clears throat] of of natural levels [clears throat] of of reflective inclination, right? Are we reflective inclination, right? Are we reflective inclination, right? Are we happy? Are our lives going well? If life happy? Are our lives going well? If life happy? Are our lives going well? If life is going well and that person is, you is going well and that person is, you is going well and that person is, you know, they're healthy, they have good know, they're healthy, they have good know, they're healthy, they have good mental health and secure relationships mental health and secure relationships mental health and secure relationships and and life is going well and they're and and life is going well and they're and and life is going well and they're not reflecting very much, like, that not reflecting very much, like, that not reflecting very much, like, that sounds good. How I would characterize sounds good. How I would characterize sounds good. How I would characterize that is they're living through the that is they're living through the that is they're living through the generative drive, right? They're They're generative drive, right? They're They're generative drive, right? They're They're being productive, contributory people in being productive, contributory people in being productive, contributory people in the world. They're making the world the world. They're making the world the world. They're making the world better. They're learning. They're better. They're learning. They're better. They're learning. They're growing. So, they're making themselves growing. So, they're making themselves growing. So, they're making themselves better. And they're just moving forward. better. And they're just moving forward. better. And they're just moving forward. That's a great way to be. For most of That's a great way to be. For most of That's a great way to be. For most of us, in order to get there, we do have to us, in order to get there, we do have to us, in order to get there, we do have to be reflective. And And some of what will be reflective. And And some of what will be reflective. And And some of what will will happen is it will come to us. You will happen is it will come to us. You will happen is it will come to us. You said you're not kind of planning maybe said you're not kind of planning maybe said you're not kind of planning maybe to sit down and be reflective, but but to sit down and be reflective, but but to sit down and be reflective, but but then it comes to you, hey, I should then it comes to you, hey, I should then it comes to you, hey, I should think think think this possibility at hand and what are this possibility at hand and what are this possibility at hand and what are other people thinking and if how's that other people thinking and if how's that other people thinking and if how's that impacting what I'm thinking. So, you impacting what I'm thinking. So, you impacting what I'm thinking. So, you become reflective because your brain is become reflective because your brain is become reflective because your brain is leading you there, right? Because it's leading you there, right? Because it's leading you there, right? Because it's it's saying, hey, we need to we do need it's saying, hey, we need to we do need it's saying, hey, we need to we do need to stop and and think about things. to stop and and think about things. to stop and and think about things. That's how we're going to make better That's how we're going to make better That's how we're going to make better decisions. So, our brains will lead us decisions. So, our brains will lead us decisions. So, our brains will lead us to reflection. But if we're moving so to reflection. But if we're moving so to reflection. But if we're moving so fast or we're defended against it, fast or we're defended against it, fast or we're defended against it, right, then we're not reflective and right, then we're not reflective and right, then we're not reflective and that's not good for us. And that's how that's not good for us. And that's how that's not good for us. And that's how you could see, for example, someone you could see, for example, someone you could see, for example, someone who's always busy, so they don't have who's always busy, so they don't have who's always busy, so they don't have time to reflect. But But the the the big time to reflect. But But the the the big time to reflect. But But the the the big question is, is that person happy? question is, is that person happy? question is, is that person happy? Right? If that person is not happy and Right? If that person is not happy and Right? If that person is not happy and they're complaining and they feel like they're complaining and they feel like they're complaining and they feel like they're working and never getting they're working and never getting they're working and never getting anything out of it or never getting any anything out of it or never getting any anything out of it or never getting any reward, then it's it's not good that reward, then it's it's not good that reward, then it's it's not good that they're not reflective, right? They're they're not reflective, right? They're they're not reflective, right? They're blocking themselves from something that blocking themselves from something that blocking themselves from something that they need. There are spectrums that that they need. There are spectrums that that they need. There are spectrums that that apply differently to different people apply differently to different people apply differently to different people and we all reside on different parts of and we all reside on different parts of and we all reside on different parts of the spectrum, whether it's reflective the spectrum, whether it's reflective the spectrum, whether it's reflective capacity or it's assertion or it's capacity or it's assertion or it's capacity or it's assertion or it's pleasure. But in terms of what we're pleasure. But in terms of what we're pleasure. But in terms of what we're doing and whether it's healthy for us is doing and whether it's healthy for us is doing and whether it's healthy for us is it's different for for we're each and it's different for for we're each and it's different for for we're each and all unique. So, we have to stop and look all unique. So, we have to stop and look all unique. So, we have to stop and look at ourselves. Like, hey, how's this at ourselves. Like, hey, how's this at ourselves. Like, hey, how's this going for me, right? How am I going for me, right? How am I going for me, right? How am I functioning and is it working functioning and is it working functioning and is it working for me, right? Is it Am I pausing and for me, right? Is it Am I pausing and for me, right? Is it Am I pausing and thinking enough? Maybe the answer is thinking enough? Maybe the answer is thinking enough? Maybe the answer is yes. Maybe the answer is no. Maybe I'm yes. Maybe the answer is no. Maybe I'm yes. Maybe the answer is no. Maybe I'm not sure. But But if I'm not happy, let not sure. But But if I'm not happy, let not sure. But But if I'm not happy, let me go back and revisit that question. me go back and revisit that question. me go back and revisit that question. So, this curiosity of self can lead us So, this curiosity of self can lead us So, this curiosity of self can lead us to, oh, how am I built to function? Am I to, oh, how am I built to function? Am I to, oh, how am I built to function? Am I functioning in a way that really works functioning in a way that really works functioning in a way that really works for me? If not, why not? What change for me? If not, why not? What change for me? If not, why not? What change might I bring? And And here again, we're might I bring? And And here again, we're might I bring? And And here again, we're using the ability to understand and to using the ability to understand and to using the ability to understand and to go through a process to to make our go through a process to to make our go through a process to to make our lives better. lives better. lives better. I realize these aren't clinical terms, I realize these aren't clinical terms, I realize these aren't clinical terms, but someone recently said uh about but someone recently said uh about but someone recently said uh about themselves that they are an external themselves that they are an external themselves that they are an external processor. They need to talk things processor. They need to talk things processor. They need to talk things through in order to understand what's through in order to understand what's through in order to understand what's going on for them and going on for them and going on for them and make decisions. make decisions. make decisions. And that implies that some people are And that implies that some people are And that implies that some people are internal processors. Is that true? Do internal processors. Is that true? Do internal processors. Is that true? Do you see that in your practice that some you see that in your practice that some you see that in your practice that some people do best by people do best by people do best by like like like thinking, sitting and thinking, walking thinking, sitting and thinking, walking thinking, sitting and thinking, walking and thinking, driving and thinking, like and thinking, driving and thinking, like and thinking, driving and thinking, like kind of working things through, and kind of working things through, and kind of working things through, and other people actually work it out by other people actually work it out by other people actually work it out by talking either to you or to um to their talking either to you or to um to their talking either to you or to um to their friends or family, some trusted person. friends or family, some trusted person. friends or family, some trusted person. Is that really are those two probably Is that really are those two probably Is that really are those two probably not completely separate, but at least not completely separate, but at least not completely separate, but at least semi separate bins of people? I don't semi separate bins of people? I don't semi separate bins of people? I don't know that they're separate bins of know that they're separate bins of know that they're separate bins of people. I I I think that the ability to people. I I I think that the ability to people. I I I think that the ability to think and and to be objective in our think and and to be objective in our think and and to be objective in our thinking differs among people. What thinking differs among people. What thinking differs among people. What happens often is we get stuck in our own happens often is we get stuck in our own happens often is we get stuck in our own minds, so then we're thinking, but we're minds, so then we're thinking, but we're minds, so then we're thinking, but we're not thinking productively, right? not thinking productively, right? not thinking productively, right? Because we get stuck in our own loops. Because we get stuck in our own loops. Because we get stuck in our own loops. And and when we take the thought process And and when we take the thought process And and when we take the thought process outside of us, so if we write the words outside of us, so if we write the words outside of us, so if we write the words down or if we say the words, we say the down or if we say the words, we say the down or if we say the words, we say the words to another person, then we're words to another person, then we're words to another person, then we're bringing different brain processes bringing different brain processes bringing different brain processes online, different error checking online, different error checking online, different error checking processes online. So some of us can do processes online. So some of us can do processes online. So some of us can do more of this inside and say, "Hey, you more of this inside and say, "Hey, you more of this inside and say, "Hey, you know, I've been thinking about this for know, I've been thinking about this for know, I've been thinking about this for a while and nothing's different or a while and nothing's different or a while and nothing's different or nothing's going better. Like is there a nothing's going better. Like is there a nothing's going better. Like is there a different way I can is there a way I can different way I can is there a way I can different way I can is there a way I can think about it that's that's new or think about it that's that's new or think about it that's that's new or that's different?" Right? Sometimes we that's different?" Right? Sometimes we that's different?" Right? Sometimes we can do that, but a lot of times we just can do that, but a lot of times we just can do that, but a lot of times we just get stuck inside of ourselves and we get stuck inside of ourselves and we get stuck inside of ourselves and we have to bring different brain processes have to bring different brain processes have to bring different brain processes online, like making words and putting online, like making words and putting online, like making words and putting those words out there in in writing or those words out there in in writing or those words out there in in writing or in speech is different. It so holds the in speech is different. It so holds the in speech is different. It so holds the brain more accountable. That's why I brain more accountable. That's why I brain more accountable. That's why I sometimes will just say something out sometimes will just say something out sometimes will just say something out loud or we'll say something to someone loud or we'll say something to someone loud or we'll say something to someone else and say, "Oh, I figured that out." else and say, "Oh, I figured that out." else and say, "Oh, I figured that out." Or "Thanks for helping me figure it Or "Thanks for helping me figure it Or "Thanks for helping me figure it out." And you might realize all you did out." And you might realize all you did out." And you might realize all you did was listen, right? Cuz just by being was listen, right? Cuz just by being was listen, right? Cuz just by being there, the other person is forming there, the other person is forming there, the other person is forming words, you know, we we do more due words, you know, we we do more due words, you know, we we do more due diligence inside of ourselves that way. diligence inside of ourselves that way. diligence inside of ourselves that way. I must I must I must confess I'm I'm fascinated by this confess I'm I'm fascinated by this confess I'm I'm fascinated by this notion of uh notion of uh notion of uh people differing in their people differing in their people differing in their tendency to work things out internally tendency to work things out internally tendency to work things out internally and then bring that forward into the and then bring that forward into the and then bring that forward into the world. Maybe for more world. Maybe for more world. Maybe for more help or help or help or you know, some additional solutions you know, some additional solutions you know, some additional solutions um or maybe just they made they've um or maybe just they made they've um or maybe just they made they've figured it out. So they're bringing figured it out. So they're bringing figured it out. So they're bringing a version of self into the world that is a version of self into the world that is a version of self into the world that is um um um vetted by them. vetted by them. vetted by them. Yes. Yes. Yes. >> I I I notice I tend to respect that >> I I I notice I tend to respect that >> I I I notice I tend to respect that picture, Mhm. but I realize that's not picture, Mhm. but I realize that's not picture, Mhm. but I realize that's not necessarily the way it always works. I necessarily the way it always works. I necessarily the way it always works. I had a conversation with my sister this had a conversation with my sister this had a conversation with my sister this morning. And um morning. And um morning. And um I love my sister. We're we're quite I love my sister. We're we're quite I love my sister. We're we're quite close. And close. And close. And And what There was no friction, but the And what There was no friction, but the And what There was no friction, but the direction she was taking what we were direction she was taking what we were direction she was taking what we were talking about and talking about and talking about and the direction I was taking it, they the direction I was taking it, they the direction I was taking it, they weren't aligned. weren't aligned. weren't aligned. And so we kind of did a little bit of And so we kind of did a little bit of And so we kind of did a little bit of our brother-sister pushback and this our brother-sister pushback and this our brother-sister pushback and this kind of And then at some point we both kind of And then at some point we both kind of And then at some point we both realized that we we we weren't aligned realized that we we we weren't aligned realized that we we we weren't aligned with the other person. with the other person. with the other person. And we kind of arrived at this overlap And we kind of arrived at this overlap And we kind of arrived at this overlap in the Venn diagram. And that's when it in the Venn diagram. And that's when it in the Venn diagram. And that's when it was like, "Okay, there's some real was like, "Okay, there's some real was like, "Okay, there's some real clarity that came to something clarity that came to something clarity that came to something important." important." important." And I thought like, "How cool is that?" And I thought like, "How cool is that?" And I thought like, "How cool is that?" Right? She has her way of doing things. Right? She has her way of doing things. Right? She has her way of doing things. I have my way of doing things. I don't I have my way of doing things. I don't I have my way of doing things. I don't think I could have gotten there without think I could have gotten there without think I could have gotten there without that conversation. that conversation. that conversation. And yet it for the two-thirds Sorry, I And yet it for the two-thirds Sorry, I And yet it for the two-thirds Sorry, I won't say her name for her own privacy, won't say her name for her own privacy, won't say her name for her own privacy, but for two-thirds of the conversation but for two-thirds of the conversation but for two-thirds of the conversation I'm thinking to myself like, "Oh god, I'm thinking to myself like, "Oh god, I'm thinking to myself like, "Oh god, this is like this is already difficult this is like this is already difficult this is like this is already difficult thing made more difficult by the fact thing made more difficult by the fact thing made more difficult by the fact that there's this other picture of it that there's this other picture of it that there's this other picture of it and then a version of it that she's and then a version of it that she's and then a version of it that she's extra And But then boom, you hit this extra And But then boom, you hit this extra And But then boom, you hit this convergence. And that's real synergy, convergence. And that's real synergy, convergence. And that's real synergy, right? I certainly couldn't have come up right? I certainly couldn't have come up right? I certainly couldn't have come up with that on my own. with that on my own. with that on my own. So while I say I place value on the So while I say I place value on the So while I say I place value on the internal processor, I I know with internal processor, I I know with internal processor, I I know with certainty I could not have gotten there certainty I could not have gotten there certainty I could not have gotten there if I hadn't actually felt and met the if I hadn't actually felt and met the if I hadn't actually felt and met the friction of what she was bringing friction of what she was bringing friction of what she was bringing forward and her willingness to bend a forward and her willingness to bend a forward and her willingness to bend a bit and my willingness to accept a bit. bit and my willingness to accept a bit. bit and my willingness to accept a bit. Right, cuz you're doing something Right, cuz you're doing something Right, cuz you're doing something together. Right? You're doing something together. Right? You're doing something together. Right? You're doing something together that that involved real and together that that involved real and together that that involved real and open communication, so you have to be open communication, so you have to be open communication, so you have to be able to say, "Hey, this is how I think able to say, "Hey, this is how I think able to say, "Hey, this is how I think and feel." And put that out there and and feel." And put that out there and and feel." And put that out there and test it and bounce it off the other test it and bounce it off the other test it and bounce it off the other person and take inside what the other person and take inside what the other person and take inside what the other person thinks and said. There's a really person thinks and said. There's a really person thinks and said. There's a really complicated process there, which is how complicated process there, which is how complicated process there, which is how human beings come to understand one human beings come to understand one human beings come to understand one another or come to agree or come to a another or come to agree or come to a another or come to agree or come to a place where where there's place where where there's place where where there's um a way forward even if there isn't um a way forward even if there isn't um a way forward even if there isn't complete agreement. Right? We have to do complete agreement. Right? We have to do complete agreement. Right? We have to do these things outside of us. Most often, these things outside of us. Most often, these things outside of us. Most often, if we're going to be at our healthiest, if we're going to be at our healthiest, if we're going to be at our healthiest, we do want to be able to do some of it we do want to be able to do some of it we do want to be able to do some of it inside, right? It's a good place to inside, right? It's a good place to inside, right? It's a good place to start and we can do that alone with start and we can do that alone with start and we can do that alone with ourselves. And and you know, we've we're ourselves. And and you know, we've we're ourselves. And and you know, we've we're talking about reflective capacity and talking about reflective capacity and talking about reflective capacity and inclination, but none of us knows how to inclination, but none of us knows how to inclination, but none of us knows how to do something we haven't been taught to do something we haven't been taught to do something we haven't been taught to do. Right? So so very often we haven't do. Right? So so very often we haven't do. Right? So so very often we haven't had a had a had a a way of going inside, of saying, "Well, a way of going inside, of saying, "Well, a way of going inside, of saying, "Well, I'm going to think about myself and I I'm going to think about myself and I I'm going to think about myself and I want to do that productively." And and want to do that productively." And and want to do that productively." And and part of what I'm trying to bring to the part of what I'm trying to bring to the part of what I'm trying to bring to the fore is that there are ways of going fore is that there are ways of going fore is that there are ways of going about being with yourself, thinking about being with yourself, thinking about being with yourself, thinking about yourself, thinking within yourself about yourself, thinking within yourself about yourself, thinking within yourself that can lead us towards progress at that can lead us towards progress at that can lead us towards progress at least and sometimes answers. And if least and sometimes answers. And if least and sometimes answers. And if we're doing that, we can probably all do we're doing that, we can probably all do we're doing that, we can probably all do more of that than we're doing. And if more of that than we're doing. And if more of that than we're doing. And if we're given a way to do it where we we're given a way to do it where we we're given a way to do it where we think, "Okay, this works for me. I'm think, "Okay, this works for me. I'm think, "Okay, this works for me. I'm actually learning about myself while I'm actually learning about myself while I'm actually learning about myself while I'm doing this and I'm bringing a vetted doing this and I'm bringing a vetted doing this and I'm bringing a vetted self. I'm bringing my best self to what self. I'm bringing my best self to what self. I'm bringing my best self to what I'm going to find outside of me." And I'm going to find outside of me." And I'm going to find outside of me." And and that may be collaboration with and that may be collaboration with and that may be collaboration with another person, right? It may be talking another person, right? It may be talking another person, right? It may be talking with another person and coming to some with another person and coming to some with another person and coming to some middle ground when there isn't middle ground when there isn't middle ground when there isn't agreement. So if we start with ourselves agreement. So if we start with ourselves agreement. So if we start with ourselves and we're able to to reflect and to and we're able to to reflect and to and we're able to to reflect and to bring self-understanding to the fore, bring self-understanding to the fore, bring self-understanding to the fore, we're much much stronger, right? In a we're much much stronger, right? In a we're much much stronger, right? In a good way, not stronger in that we're good way, not stronger in that we're good way, not stronger in that we're going to force our way through things, going to force our way through things, going to force our way through things, but we're much stronger in terms of both but we're much stronger in terms of both but we're much stronger in terms of both self-knowledge and ability to be self-knowledge and ability to be self-knowledge and ability to be flexible when we're out in the real flexible when we're out in the real flexible when we're out in the real world meeting other people. world meeting other people. world meeting other people. Yeah, I think it Yeah, I think it Yeah, I think it to me to me to me um the um the um the picture of internal processing picture of internal processing picture of internal processing um um um people people people is one that and maybe I've seen too many is one that and maybe I've seen too many is one that and maybe I've seen too many movies um movies um movies um and shows from my childhood, but that and shows from my childhood, but that and shows from my childhood, but that the picture is one of Okay, people who the picture is one of Okay, people who the picture is one of Okay, people who internally process bring the best internally process bring the best internally process bring the best version of themselves forward. They version of themselves forward. They version of themselves forward. They don't burden other people, don't burden other people, don't burden other people, but but but I think by now we understand as a I think by now we understand as a I think by now we understand as a culture that that person culture that that person culture that that person while while while traditionally was kind of revered, this traditionally was kind of revered, this traditionally was kind of revered, this is a kind of a male-centric phenotype is a kind of a male-centric phenotype is a kind of a male-centric phenotype here, picture that I'm drawing. It could here, picture that I'm drawing. It could here, picture that I'm drawing. It could be about a woman as well. There's also be about a woman as well. There's also be about a woman as well. There's also this idea that they're a little bit this idea that they're a little bit this idea that they're a little bit disconnected from all the chatter. disconnected from all the chatter. disconnected from all the chatter. But in my mind I have this But in my mind I have this But in my mind I have this belief like if people are externally belief like if people are externally belief like if people are externally processing a lot that processing a lot that processing a lot that they're also revealing their they're also revealing their they're also revealing their uncertainty. And that that's not a good uncertainty. And that that's not a good uncertainty. And that that's not a good thing thing thing to reveal to the world. to reveal to the world. to reveal to the world. And again, this And again, this And again, this probably reflects my age and the times probably reflects my age and the times probably reflects my age and the times when I was raised and a bit about the when I was raised and a bit about the when I was raised and a bit about the culture in my family, et cetera, but um culture in my family, et cetera, but um culture in my family, et cetera, but um but I think in general that's but I think in general that's but I think in general that's that's that's that's like we never really talk about like like we never really talk about like like we never really talk about like strong silent type, but lazy. strong silent type, but lazy. strong silent type, but lazy. >> [laughter] >> [laughter] >> [laughter] >> Right? Like we're thinking strong silent >> Right? Like we're thinking strong silent >> Right? Like we're thinking strong silent and therefore getting stuff done. Right? and therefore getting stuff done. Right? and therefore getting stuff done. Right? Like the the the the tacit message there Like the the the the tacit message there Like the the the the tacit message there is strong and silent, so they're not is strong and silent, so they're not is strong and silent, so they're not burdening other people with their burdening other people with their burdening other people with their internal stuff. We also assume that internal stuff. We also assume that internal stuff. We also assume that people who process internally are people who process internally are people who process internally are actually processing, that they're not actually processing, that they're not actually processing, that they're not just sitting there. I used to joke, you just sitting there. I used to joke, you just sitting there. I used to joke, you know, "What's my bulldog Costello know, "What's my bulldog Costello know, "What's my bulldog Costello thinking about?" And I I know this isn't thinking about?" And I I know this isn't thinking about?" And I I know this isn't true, but I used to think it was true, but I used to think it was true, but I used to think it was like noise. Like maybe he was just like noise. Like maybe he was just like noise. Like maybe he was just sitting there white noising sitting there white noising sitting there white noising white experiencing the world as white white experiencing the world as white white experiencing the world as white noise. I mean, I don't know what he was noise. I mean, I don't know what he was noise. I mean, I don't know what he was thinking about. thinking about. thinking about. Could have been quantum physics. Um I Could have been quantum physics. Um I Could have been quantum physics. Um I doubt that, but it could have been quite doubt that, but it could have been quite doubt that, but it could have been quite And if it was, you know, He was good at And if it was, you know, He was good at And if it was, you know, He was good at keeping a secret. keeping a secret. keeping a secret. >> Exactly. Right. Yeah, and and the >> Exactly. Right. Yeah, and and the >> Exactly. Right. Yeah, and and the picture actually works cuz he he was a picture actually works cuz he he was a picture actually works cuz he he was a big kind of stoic dog. He had his joyful big kind of stoic dog. He had his joyful big kind of stoic dog. He had his joyful expression, but there's something about expression, but there's something about expression, but there's something about this notion of somebody that processes this notion of somebody that processes this notion of somebody that processes internally internally internally that gets a lot done. that gets a lot done. that gets a lot done. And maybe even serves others, although And maybe even serves others, although And maybe even serves others, although uh more than somebody who's processing uh more than somebody who's processing uh more than somebody who's processing externally. And it's hard to probe this externally. And it's hard to probe this externally. And it's hard to probe this area without kind of setting up natural area without kind of setting up natural area without kind of setting up natural gender stereotypes here. You know, I gender stereotypes here. You know, I gender stereotypes here. You know, I think the stereotype is that women think the stereotype is that women think the stereotype is that women externally process more than men. externally process more than men. externally process more than men. I don't know that that's actually true. I don't know that that's actually true. I don't know that that's actually true. It just might be that men It just might be that men It just might be that men process less overall. I mean, who knows? process less overall. I mean, who knows? process less overall. I mean, who knows? I don't know what anyone else is I don't know what anyone else is I don't know what anyone else is thinking. Half the time I don't know thinking. Half the time I don't know thinking. Half the time I don't know what I'm thinking. So what I'm thinking. So what I'm thinking. So do you think that people who hold it in do you think that people who hold it in do you think that people who hold it in more more more are coming to a greater understanding are coming to a greater understanding are coming to a greater understanding and get more done in the world than and get more done in the world than and get more done in the world than those that externally process? No, I those that externally process? No, I those that externally process? No, I think not not necessarily. I I think think not not necessarily. I I think think not not necessarily. I I think what's best for us is a balance. And what's best for us is a balance. And what's best for us is a balance. And again, it's going to be different for again, it's going to be different for again, it's going to be different for each person, but there has to be a each person, but there has to be a each person, but there has to be a balance of things that I know and balance of things that I know and balance of things that I know and understand inside of myself that um that understand inside of myself that um that understand inside of myself that um that aren't up for question, that I am sure aren't up for question, that I am sure aren't up for question, that I am sure of and resolved about. So it might be a of and resolved about. So it might be a of and resolved about. So it might be a a line not to cross because because it's a line not to cross because because it's a line not to cross because because it's a certain moral boundary. I know how I a certain moral boundary. I know how I a certain moral boundary. I know how I feel about it and I know where I am I feel about it and I know where I am I feel about it and I know where I am I know how I feel and I know where I know how I feel and I know where I know how I feel and I know where I stand. So it's just one one example. stand. So it's just one one example. stand. So it's just one one example. There are issues of self that we want to There are issues of self that we want to There are issues of self that we want to feel very resolved, you know, how I want feel very resolved, you know, how I want feel very resolved, you know, how I want to treat people in the world and how I to treat people in the world and how I to treat people in the world and how I want to be treated, you know, for want to be treated, you know, for want to be treated, you know, for example. It's good to know those things example. It's good to know those things example. It's good to know those things inside of us, but it is good to then inside of us, but it is good to then inside of us, but it is good to then test externally about how we're test externally about how we're test externally about how we're interfacing with the world. If too much interfacing with the world. If too much interfacing with the world. If too much internal processing can be too internal processing can be too internal processing can be too self-referential and now I may think self-referential and now I may think self-referential and now I may think that how I think it should be is that how I think it should be is that how I think it should be is actually how it should be because I actually how it should be because I actually how it should be because I haven't tested outside of me and I haven't tested outside of me and I haven't tested outside of me and I haven't done enough of that testing to haven't done enough of that testing to haven't done enough of that testing to see a lot of other people feel see a lot of other people feel see a lot of other people feel differently than me. And and this isn't differently than me. And and this isn't differently than me. And and this isn't a a moral point where I feel sure about a a moral point where I feel sure about a a moral point where I feel sure about how I feel is actually more gray in it how I feel is actually more gray in it how I feel is actually more gray in it that I than I might have thought as an that I than I might have thought as an that I than I might have thought as an example. So there there has to be a example. So there there has to be a example. So there there has to be a balance. I mean, it's always been this balance. I mean, it's always been this balance. I mean, it's always been this way for humans, a balance of what we we way for humans, a balance of what we we way for humans, a balance of what we we discern and know inside, but bringing discern and know inside, but bringing discern and know inside, but bringing that vetted self to the world means that that vetted self to the world means that that vetted self to the world means that the vetted self also knows that it the vetted self also knows that it the vetted self also knows that it doesn't know everything, right? And it's doesn't know everything, right? And it's doesn't know everything, right? And it's testing in the outside world to learn testing in the outside world to learn testing in the outside world to learn what is it that other people are what is it that other people are what is it that other people are thinking. Can I learn from that? So so thinking. Can I learn from that? So so thinking. Can I learn from that? So so bringing an openness is also very bringing an openness is also very bringing an openness is also very important about a lot of things. So I important about a lot of things. So I important about a lot of things. So I think that no one way of being is think that no one way of being is think that no one way of being is better. I think we all need a balance. better. I think we all need a balance. better. I think we all need a balance. That balance is going to differ, and it That balance is going to differ, and it That balance is going to differ, and it involves knowing things about ourselves involves knowing things about ourselves involves knowing things about ourselves and feeling resolute and also having the and feeling resolute and also having the and feeling resolute and also having the humility to face the world with openness humility to face the world with openness humility to face the world with openness and and realizing there's a lot of and and realizing there's a lot of and and realizing there's a lot of things I may think I know or think I things I may think I know or think I things I may think I know or think I know exactly how something is or how know exactly how something is or how know exactly how something is or how something should be, but but let me hold something should be, but but let me hold something should be, but but let me hold on for a second and kind of check that on for a second and kind of check that on for a second and kind of check that with the outside world so that I don't with the outside world so that I don't with the outside world so that I don't become too self-referential where we can become too self-referential where we can become too self-referential where we can become, you know, we can become bigoted become, you know, we can become bigoted become, you know, we can become bigoted or prejudiced. I mean, those can be or prejudiced. I mean, those can be or prejudiced. I mean, those can be outcomes, or we can just just step a outcomes, or we can just just step a outcomes, or we can just just step a little bit in into it ignorance that little bit in into it ignorance that little bit in into it ignorance that there that there's more in the world there that there's more in the world there that there's more in the world than our own opinions. than our own opinions. than our own opinions. As many of you know, I've been taking As many of you know, I've been taking As many of you know, I've been taking AG1 for nearly 15 years now. I AG1 for nearly 15 years now. I AG1 for nearly 15 years now. I discovered it way back in 2012, long discovered it way back in 2012, long discovered it way back in 2012, long before I had a podcast, and I've been before I had a podcast, and I've been before I had a podcast, and I've been taking it every day since. AG1 is, to my taking it every day since. 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Vering towards some questions about Vering towards some questions about Vering towards some questions about physiology and how it relates to all physiology and how it relates to all physiology and how it relates to all this, but this, but this, but um um um I want to just peel back one more layer I want to just peel back one more layer I want to just peel back one more layer on this kind of on this kind of on this kind of you know, admittedly, you know, extreme you know, admittedly, you know, extreme you know, admittedly, you know, extreme example of kind of example of kind of example of kind of I don't want to use strong silent. I I don't want to use strong silent. I I don't want to use strong silent. I want to be internal internal processor, want to be internal internal processor, want to be internal internal processor, external processors. Um and and I I external processors. Um and and I I external processors. Um and and I I actually right now I'll try and actually right now I'll try and actually right now I'll try and disintegrate the the strong silent type disintegrate the the strong silent type disintegrate the the strong silent type because people immediately default to because people immediately default to because people immediately default to male, and I'm not doing that for male, and I'm not doing that for male, and I'm not doing that for political correctness, but I think about political correctness, but I think about political correctness, but I think about my graduate advisor, uh Barbara Chapman, my graduate advisor, uh Barbara Chapman, my graduate advisor, uh Barbara Chapman, um incredibly smart person, and our um incredibly smart person, and our um incredibly smart person, and our chair of department years ago, my chair chair of department years ago, my chair chair of department years ago, my chair of department years ago, described her of department years ago, described her of department years ago, described her perfectly when he said, "She's quiet, perfectly when he said, "She's quiet, perfectly when he said, "She's quiet, but not shy." but not shy." but not shy." Uh-huh. So she could sit and be in a Uh-huh. So she could sit and be in a Uh-huh. So she could sit and be in a room and observe and pay attention, and room and observe and pay attention, and room and observe and pay attention, and when she spoke, you really did get the when she spoke, you really did get the when she spoke, you really did get the sense that it counted, high sense that it counted, high sense that it counted, high signal-to-noise, because she wasn't one signal-to-noise, because she wasn't one signal-to-noise, because she wasn't one to chatter much. Right. There does seem to chatter much. Right. There does seem to chatter much. Right. There does seem to be this assumption to be this assumption to be this assumption that if people are talking a lot, that if people are talking a lot, that if people are talking a lot, that there's a lot going on in there all that there's a lot going on in there all that there's a lot going on in there all the time, and some of it's just getting the time, and some of it's just getting the time, and some of it's just getting out. out. out. And that if people are quiet, that it's And that if people are quiet, that it's And that if people are quiet, that it's either more regulated or there's not a either more regulated or there's not a either more regulated or there's not a whole lot going on in there, whole lot going on in there, whole lot going on in there, right? And I think my chairman's mention right? And I think my chairman's mention right? And I think my chairman's mention about my graduate advisor really woke me about my graduate advisor really woke me about my graduate advisor really woke me up. I thought, "You're right. She's up. I thought, "You're right. She's up. I thought, "You're right. She's really quiet, but she's not shy. She's really quiet, but she's not shy. She's really quiet, but she's not shy. She's not afraid to speak. She's very not afraid to speak. She's very not afraid to speak. She's very organized and and deliberate in what she organized and and deliberate in what she organized and and deliberate in what she says." Mhm. And it I can't say it was says." Mhm. And it I can't say it was says." Mhm. And it I can't say it was always a value. Forgive me, Barbara. You always a value. Forgive me, Barbara. You always a value. Forgive me, Barbara. You know, she's passed away, but like it know, she's passed away, but like it know, she's passed away, but like it sometimes it was just, you know, casual sometimes it was just, you know, casual sometimes it was just, you know, casual talk, but you did get the sense like talk, but you did get the sense like talk, but you did get the sense like she's a thinker. she's a thinker. she's a thinker. It's not white noise in there. Mhm. It's not white noise in there. Mhm. It's not white noise in there. Mhm. And you do sometimes get the sense And you do sometimes get the sense And you do sometimes get the sense that people who are constantly, that people who are constantly, that people who are constantly, you know, sending words out into the you know, sending words out into the you know, sending words out into the world, that it has an anxiety component. world, that it has an anxiety component. world, that it has an anxiety component. It doesn't necessarily seem that It doesn't necessarily seem that It doesn't necessarily seem that organized, but you and I are both men. organized, but you and I are both men. organized, but you and I are both men. I'm sure many people know people who are I'm sure many people know people who are I'm sure many people know people who are hyperverbal, but very structured Mhm. in hyperverbal, but very structured Mhm. in hyperverbal, but very structured Mhm. in their hyperverbalness. their hyperverbalness. their hyperverbalness. Right. So I I I guess I'm asking this Right. So I I I guess I'm asking this Right. So I I I guess I'm asking this because I I want to kind of break down because I I want to kind of break down because I I want to kind of break down the the notions of quiet versus verbal. the the notions of quiet versus verbal. the the notions of quiet versus verbal. Introspective necessarily means Introspective necessarily means Introspective necessarily means um calm. um calm. um calm. Like Like Like I mean, I mean, I mean, so many assumptions around all this. so many assumptions around all this. so many assumptions around all this. None None of None of it is necessarily None None of None of it is necessarily None None of None of it is necessarily true, and the reason I'm I want to I'm true, and the reason I'm I want to I'm true, and the reason I'm I want to I'm so genuinely curious about this is so genuinely curious about this is so genuinely curious about this is I think that most of the world is I think that most of the world is I think that most of the world is confronted with this Marc Andreessen confronted with this Marc Andreessen confronted with this Marc Andreessen provocative question like, "How much provocative question like, "How much provocative question like, "How much time should we spend in here, and how time should we spend in here, and how time should we spend in here, and how does it serve us when we're out here in does it serve us when we're out here in does it serve us when we're out here in the in the rest of the world?" Mhm. And the in the rest of the world?" Mhm. And the in the rest of the world?" Mhm. And vice versa. Mhm. Like like vice versa. Mhm. Like like vice versa. Mhm. Like like [clears throat] if we're just talking [clears throat] if we're just talking [clears throat] if we're just talking talking talking doing all day, talking talking doing all day, talking talking doing all day, maybe we are processing, and we can be maybe we are processing, and we can be maybe we are processing, and we can be peaceful inside. Lay our head down, and peaceful inside. Lay our head down, and peaceful inside. Lay our head down, and that's it. It's all out there, for that's it. It's all out there, for that's it. It's all out there, for better or worse. But for us, it's great. better or worse. But for us, it's great. better or worse. But for us, it's great. Yeah. But there's this assumption that Yeah. But there's this assumption that Yeah. But there's this assumption that there's that we're constant whatever we there's that we're constant whatever we there's that we're constant whatever we see is also happening internally. see is also happening internally. see is also happening internally. Yeah, I think we have to just be very Yeah, I think we have to just be very Yeah, I think we have to just be very very wary of of either mapping some very wary of of either mapping some very wary of of either mapping some stereotype like this is good and that's stereotype like this is good and that's stereotype like this is good and that's not good and applying some value system not good and applying some value system not good and applying some value system to it when we're outside of looking at a to it when we're outside of looking at a to it when we're outside of looking at a person in a context, right? Because all person in a context, right? Because all person in a context, right? Because all of those things, you know, being of those things, you know, being of those things, you know, being internalized, speaking less or being internalized, speaking less or being internalized, speaking less or being hyperverbal, they could mean anything, hyperverbal, they could mean anything, hyperverbal, they could mean anything, you know, anything under the sun. It has you know, anything under the sun. It has you know, anything under the sun. It has to be who is the person and what is the to be who is the person and what is the to be who is the person and what is the context. So if you're describing Barbara context. So if you're describing Barbara context. So if you're describing Barbara Chapman in meetings, right? I interpret Chapman in meetings, right? I interpret Chapman in meetings, right? I interpret that as she's she's communicating that as she's she's communicating that as she's she's communicating judiciously, judiciously, judiciously, right? She's in a place where maybe right? She's in a place where maybe right? She's in a place where maybe sometimes people say excess things sometimes people say excess things sometimes people say excess things because they're self-aggrandizing or because they're self-aggrandizing or because they're self-aggrandizing or they want to bring something up or they, they want to bring something up or they, they want to bring something up or they, you know, they're trying to guide a you know, they're trying to guide a you know, they're trying to guide a conversation one way or another, and you conversation one way or another, and you conversation one way or another, and you think, "No, that that's a place for think, "No, that that's a place for think, "No, that that's a place for where less is more, right? We're not where less is more, right? We're not where less is more, right? We're not doing that." And just communicating doing that." And just communicating doing that." And just communicating about something that matters when it about something that matters when it about something that matters when it matters. So wow, that's matters. So wow, that's matters. So wow, that's judiciously. I mean, that's what it judiciously. I mean, that's what it judiciously. I mean, that's what it tells me about her. I don't know if her tells me about her. I don't know if her tells me about her. I don't know if her mind was going a mile a minute inside or mind was going a mile a minute inside or mind was going a mile a minute inside or if there was, you know, a calm and if there was, you know, a calm and if there was, you know, a calm and equanimity, but but I think who that equanimity, but but I think who that equanimity, but but I think who that person was and what that situation was person was and what that situation was person was and what that situation was was very was adaptive, right? Same thing was very was adaptive, right? Same thing was very was adaptive, right? Same thing if there's someone who's speaking a lot, if there's someone who's speaking a lot, if there's someone who's speaking a lot, but you know, they just have a lot of but you know, they just have a lot of but you know, they just have a lot of ideas, and they're really constructive ideas, and they're really constructive ideas, and they're really constructive ideas, and they're talking to people ideas, and they're talking to people ideas, and they're talking to people about those ideas, and they're about those ideas, and they're about those ideas, and they're enthusiastic, and it's helpful. Well, enthusiastic, and it's helpful. Well, enthusiastic, and it's helpful. Well, that sounds good to me, right? That that sounds good to me, right? That that sounds good to me, right? That sounds very different than someone who's sounds very different than someone who's sounds very different than someone who's hyperverbal and they're talking, but you hyperverbal and they're talking, but you hyperverbal and they're talking, but you you know, you can tell they're saying you know, you can tell they're saying you know, you can tell they're saying the same thing, but coming from a the same thing, but coming from a the same thing, but coming from a different angle, and they're anxious, different angle, and they're anxious, different angle, and they're anxious, and they may want validation, right? So and they may want validation, right? So and they may want validation, right? So so the person and the context makes all so the person and the context makes all so the person and the context makes all the difference. I mean, we we want to be the difference. I mean, we we want to be the difference. I mean, we we want to be able to identify, you know, when a able to identify, you know, when a able to identify, you know, when a person might fit a certain profile, person might fit a certain profile, person might fit a certain profile, right? You know, there are people who right? You know, there are people who right? You know, there are people who are quiet because they said they're are quiet because they said they're are quiet because they said they're strong and they're silent and there's strong and they're silent and there's strong and they're silent and there's not a lot going on inside, but they're not a lot going on inside, but they're not a lot going on inside, but they're resolute. Okay, that's a kind of person, resolute. Okay, that's a kind of person, resolute. Okay, that's a kind of person, right? But we shouldn't assume that that right? But we shouldn't assume that that right? But we shouldn't assume that that someone is that way until we've looked someone is that way until we've looked someone is that way until we've looked at who is that person and what is the at who is that person and what is the at who is that person and what is the context in which we're assessing them. context in which we're assessing them. context in which we're assessing them. We're human, so we fit patterns, right? We're human, so we fit patterns, right? We're human, so we fit patterns, right? But we're all unique, so you won't know But we're all unique, so you won't know But we're all unique, so you won't know what pattern we may be fitting until you what pattern we may be fitting until you what pattern we may be fitting until you really look at us. really look at us. really look at us. One thing I love about your book is you One thing I love about your book is you One thing I love about your book is you have probe questions. You you have have probe questions. You you have have probe questions. You you have questions for people to ask themselves questions for people to ask themselves questions for people to ask themselves Thank you. to explore the self. Thank you. to explore the self. Thank you. to explore the self. And I think for me, that was a is a huge And I think for me, that was a is a huge And I think for me, that was a is a huge gift of of the book and and the work in gift of of the book and and the work in gift of of the book and and the work in it. You know, when I got to see an it. You know, when I got to see an it. You know, when I got to see an advance copy, I was like, you know, advance copy, I was like, you know, advance copy, I was like, you know, obviously, you understand the theory and obviously, you understand the theory and obviously, you understand the theory and the science, and you're a clinician, but the science, and you're a clinician, but the science, and you're a clinician, but for me, um like, "Okay, what do I ask for me, um like, "Okay, what do I ask for me, um like, "Okay, what do I ask myself? myself? myself? And how do I go about doing that? How do And how do I go about doing that? How do And how do I go about doing that? How do I figure out what's going right as a at I figure out what's going right as a at I figure out what's going right as a at least least least as a stepping stone to maybe exploring as a stepping stone to maybe exploring as a stepping stone to maybe exploring what's not going right, but certainly to what's not going right, but certainly to what's not going right, but certainly to really understand where my strengths really understand where my strengths really understand where my strengths might lie." And I think that's a it's a might lie." And I think that's a it's a might lie." And I think that's a it's a really unique gift because I think that really unique gift because I think that really unique gift because I think that um we don't have enough of that. I think um we don't have enough of that. I think um we don't have enough of that. I think we have a lot of "What's going wrong? we have a lot of "What's going wrong? we have a lot of "What's going wrong? Where are the friction points? What's Where are the friction points? What's Where are the friction points? What's wrong with me?" wrong with me?" wrong with me?" kind of stuff. Right. kind of stuff. Right. kind of stuff. Right. >> And what's wrong with the world? >> And what's wrong with the world? >> And what's wrong with the world? And I think starting from that place of And I think starting from that place of And I think starting from that place of really knowing what the questions are to really knowing what the questions are to really knowing what the questions are to ask oneself is uh ask oneself is uh ask oneself is uh I just personally found it immensely I just personally found it immensely I just personally found it immensely useful. Yeah. You know, and I realize useful. Yeah. You know, and I realize useful. Yeah. You know, and I realize we're we're mainly discussing theory and we're we're mainly discussing theory and we're we're mainly discussing theory and and um at up until now, although I'm and um at up until now, although I'm and um at up until now, although I'm about to ask you a very practical about to ask you a very practical about to ask you a very practical question, which is question, which is question, which is assuming no pathology, no um assuming no pathology, no um assuming no pathology, no um life-crippling anxiety or depression, or life-crippling anxiety or depression, or life-crippling anxiety or depression, or panic, how much do you think people panic, how much do you think people panic, how much do you think people should try and adjust their, what I should try and adjust their, what I should try and adjust their, what I call, the autonomic set point? Like, call, the autonomic set point? Like, call, the autonomic set point? Like, some people are just more, some people are just more, some people are just more, you know, expressive with their hands, you know, expressive with their hands, you know, expressive with their hands, with their words. They they want to move with their words. They they want to move with their words. They they want to move a lot more, and if they don't, it makes a lot more, and if they don't, it makes a lot more, and if they don't, it makes them anxious. Right. them anxious. Right. them anxious. Right. >> Other people are more still. >> Other people are more still. >> Other people are more still. And we, again, assume that if they're And we, again, assume that if they're And we, again, assume that if they're physically still, that things are physically still, that things are physically still, that things are probably a bit more still internally, probably a bit more still internally, probably a bit more still internally, and that's not necessarily a bad thing, and that's not necessarily a bad thing, and that's not necessarily a bad thing, but but but there is a lot of emphasis, including on there is a lot of emphasis, including on there is a lot of emphasis, including on this podcast, on this podcast, on this podcast, on learning to sit with stress, learning to learning to sit with stress, learning to learning to sit with stress, learning to sit with anxiety, sit with anxiety, sit with anxiety, and not just letting it out or and not just letting it out or and not just letting it out or experiencing it. And sometimes I wonder, experiencing it. And sometimes I wonder, experiencing it. And sometimes I wonder, despite knowing the immense value of despite knowing the immense value of despite knowing the immense value of those tools, I mean, I've benefited so those tools, I mean, I've benefited so those tools, I mean, I've benefited so much from things like non-sleep deep much from things like non-sleep deep much from things like non-sleep deep rest and meditation and things like rest and meditation and things like rest and meditation and things like that, and I know others have as well, that, and I know others have as well, that, and I know others have as well, but but but I mean, how much should we be trying to I mean, how much should we be trying to I mean, how much should we be trying to control our states? control our states? control our states? I I do wonder if it's good for us um to I I do wonder if it's good for us um to I I do wonder if it's good for us um to think that there's something wrong for think that there's something wrong for think that there's something wrong for us if we feel a certain way. us if we feel a certain way. us if we feel a certain way. Period. Period. Period. I mean, controlling our states in order I mean, controlling our states in order I mean, controlling our states in order to help us be at our best is different to help us be at our best is different to help us be at our best is different from trying to control our state so that from trying to control our state so that from trying to control our state so that we change ourselves, right? So so if you we change ourselves, right? So so if you we change ourselves, right? So so if you you're finding you're finding you're finding a deep state of peace that's not sleep, a deep state of peace that's not sleep, a deep state of peace that's not sleep, right? You find oh that helps you be a right? You find oh that helps you be a right? You find oh that helps you be a better you, right? That finding that better you, right? That finding that better you, right? That finding that peace just say it gives you some peace just say it gives you some peace just say it gives you some groundedness and you feel healthier for groundedness and you feel healthier for groundedness and you feel healthier for it and you're better able to solve it and you're better able to solve it and you're better able to solve problems. So you know, you're learning problems. So you know, you're learning problems. So you know, you're learning something and doing something because it something and doing something because it something and doing something because it serves you well and it helps you be at serves you well and it helps you be at serves you well and it helps you be at your best. Right? That's different than your best. Right? That's different than your best. Right? That's different than thinking oh I need to be different, thinking oh I need to be different, thinking oh I need to be different, right? If a person thinks well I need to right? If a person thinks well I need to right? If a person thinks well I need to be different then I need to be calmer or be different then I need to be calmer or be different then I need to be calmer or more more peaceful. What does that What more more peaceful. What does that What more more peaceful. What does that What does that mean? And is that person does that mean? And is that person does that mean? And is that person imposing something external on imposing something external on imposing something external on themselves? So there are people who are themselves? So there are people who are themselves? So there are people who are very active and and yes, you could they very active and and yes, you could they very active and and yes, you could they can sit quietly sometimes, right? But can sit quietly sometimes, right? But can sit quietly sometimes, right? But they're not really built for it, right? they're not really built for it, right? they're not really built for it, right? They're they're active people and it They're they're active people and it They're they're active people and it works for them to be active and they may works for them to be active and they may works for them to be active and they may be quite meditative when they don't seem be quite meditative when they don't seem be quite meditative when they don't seem to be quite meditative, right? They can to be quite meditative, right? They can to be quite meditative, right? They can be doing something and and we see a lot be doing something and and we see a lot be doing something and and we see a lot of movement in them but but inside they of movement in them but but inside they of movement in them but but inside they can be in a meditative state. So it's can be in a meditative state. So it's can be in a meditative state. So it's it's so easy for for us to it's so easy for for us to it's so easy for for us to it's well-meaning in that we're trying it's well-meaning in that we're trying it's well-meaning in that we're trying to understand, right? We're trying to to understand, right? We're trying to to understand, right? We're trying to understand ourselves and we're trying to understand ourselves and we're trying to understand ourselves and we're trying to understand others and we're trying to understand others and we're trying to understand others and we're trying to find patterns but but it's so tempting find patterns but but it's so tempting find patterns but but it's so tempting to think that we know something, right? to think that we know something, right? to think that we know something, right? Because we're just observing someone in Because we're just observing someone in Because we're just observing someone in a certain state or we're observing a certain state or we're observing a certain state or we're observing someone talking or not talking, right? someone talking or not talking, right? someone talking or not talking, right? So what does that mean and we have to So what does that mean and we have to So what does that mean and we have to ask the right questions, right? In order ask the right questions, right? In order ask the right questions, right? In order to get there. So so the only way we to get there. So so the only way we to get there. So so the only way we really know the answer is for a person really know the answer is for a person really know the answer is for a person is we have to understand that person and is we have to understand that person and is we have to understand that person and we have to understand their context. So we have to understand their context. So we have to understand their context. So we must ask the right questions, you we must ask the right questions, you we must ask the right questions, you know, you you had talked about trying to know, you you had talked about trying to know, you you had talked about trying to write practical routes of approach to write practical routes of approach to write practical routes of approach to ourselves in the book, right? I'm I'm ourselves in the book, right? I'm I'm ourselves in the book, right? I'm I'm doing that because you know, think of if doing that because you know, think of if doing that because you know, think of if someone wanted to learn physics. So someone wanted to learn physics. So someone wanted to learn physics. So would you say well, just stop, go would you say well, just stop, go would you say well, just stop, go somewhere and think about physics, somewhere and think about physics, somewhere and think about physics, right? Like no, there there has to be a right? Like no, there there has to be a right? Like no, there there has to be a route of approach of saying well, well route of approach of saying well, well route of approach of saying well, well here's some of the basic knowledge, you here's some of the basic knowledge, you here's some of the basic knowledge, you know, think about this, approach that know, think about this, approach that know, think about this, approach that way, way, way, read from this book and then that book, read from this book and then that book, read from this book and then that book, right? Like there are ways that we are right? Like there are ways that we are right? Like there are ways that we are guided in how to learn things and it's guided in how to learn things and it's guided in how to learn things and it's interesting that we don't have these interesting that we don't have these interesting that we don't have these guides for what's most important, which guides for what's most important, which guides for what's most important, which is learning about ourselves. So it is learning about ourselves. So it is learning about ourselves. So it brings us back to why it can make us so brings us back to why it can make us so brings us back to why it can make us so uncomfortable, so anxious is okay, we're uncomfortable, so anxious is okay, we're uncomfortable, so anxious is okay, we're going to sit with ourselves. well, sit going to sit with ourselves. well, sit going to sit with ourselves. well, sit with yourself and and you know, learn with yourself and and you know, learn with yourself and and you know, learn horticulture. It's like well, I don't horticulture. It's like well, I don't horticulture. It's like well, I don't know, like I'll sit with myself but but know, like I'll sit with myself but but know, like I'll sit with myself but but you have to help me you have to help me you have to help me you have to help me figure out how to you have to help me figure out how to you have to help me figure out how to learn that or I'm going to feel anxious learn that or I'm going to feel anxious learn that or I'm going to feel anxious about sitting there if I don't know how about sitting there if I don't know how about sitting there if I don't know how to go about it, right? So so if we have to go about it, right? So so if we have to go about it, right? So so if we have the prompts to look at ourselves now, the prompts to look at ourselves now, the prompts to look at ourselves now, what we're doing is we're making it what we're doing is we're making it what we're doing is we're making it real. We're asking the right questions real. We're asking the right questions real. We're asking the right questions of ourselves to think oh what how do I of ourselves to think oh what how do I of ourselves to think oh what how do I function? What does work well for me? function? What does work well for me? function? What does work well for me? You know, how do I think of myself? How You know, how do I think of myself? How You know, how do I think of myself? How do others think of me? Am I introverted do others think of me? Am I introverted do others think of me? Am I introverted or extroverted? Am I combination of or extroverted? Am I combination of or extroverted? Am I combination of both? Do I sometimes feel in one state both? Do I sometimes feel in one state both? Do I sometimes feel in one state and sometimes in another? Is it working and sometimes in another? Is it working and sometimes in another? Is it working for me, right? Is it working for me in for me, right? Is it working for me in for me, right? Is it working for me in the big picture? Are there parts of the the big picture? Are there parts of the the big picture? Are there parts of the small picture that work for me or things small picture that work for me or things small picture that work for me or things I really don't like or things where I I really don't like or things where I I really don't like or things where I really don't feel uncomfortable? Now really don't feel uncomfortable? Now really don't feel uncomfortable? Now we're bringing curiosity and yes, we we we're bringing curiosity and yes, we we we're bringing curiosity and yes, we we want to learn from patterns and and want to learn from patterns and and want to learn from patterns and and learn from all the knowledge we have of learn from all the knowledge we have of learn from all the knowledge we have of the world but we're taking that and the world but we're taking that and the world but we're taking that and saying hey, none of that actually means saying hey, none of that actually means saying hey, none of that actually means anything until it's directed towards anything until it's directed towards anything until it's directed towards me if I'm the person reflecting about me if I'm the person reflecting about me if I'm the person reflecting about myself or if it's a helping process, myself or if it's a helping process, myself or if it's a helping process, we're helping a friend or or you know, we're helping a friend or or you know, we're helping a friend or or you know, we're in a therapy process. You know, we we're in a therapy process. You know, we we're in a therapy process. You know, we have to take everything that we know and have to take everything that we know and have to take everything that we know and then it's all seen through the lens of then it's all seen through the lens of then it's all seen through the lens of that person. And we we have to do it that person. And we we have to do it that person. And we we have to do it that way or we'll lead ourselves astray. that way or we'll lead ourselves astray. that way or we'll lead ourselves astray. If you're willing, um I'm curious about If you're willing, um I'm curious about If you're willing, um I'm curious about uh uh uh throwing out a sort of a generic throwing out a sort of a generic throwing out a sort of a generic clinical session clinical session clinical session example. example. example. Let's assume Let's assume Let's assume you know something about the family you know something about the family you know something about the family background of a patient and there's background of a patient and there's background of a patient and there's nothing glaringly obvious in the nothing glaringly obvious in the nothing glaringly obvious in the background about trauma or maybe there background about trauma or maybe there background about trauma or maybe there is but you know, that there's nothing is but you know, that there's nothing is but you know, that there's nothing really to dig into there just yet and really to dig into there just yet and really to dig into there just yet and the person comes to you and says the person comes to you and says the person comes to you and says yeah, I don't know. I'm like I'm like yeah, I don't know. I'm like I'm like yeah, I don't know. I'm like I'm like work is okay but this and so-and-so at work is okay but this and so-and-so at work is okay but this and so-and-so at work at that and I guess this is good work at that and I guess this is good work at that and I guess this is good and and and you know, and they're I don't know, you know, and they're I don't know, you know, and they're I don't know, they're dating, they're in their life they're dating, they're in their life they're dating, they're in their life and I swear I'm not trying to get a free and I swear I'm not trying to get a free and I swear I'm not trying to get a free therapy session here. I'm I'm just therapy session here. I'm I'm just therapy session here. I'm I'm just trying to imagine so someone says, you trying to imagine so someone says, you trying to imagine so someone says, you know, and then like the news is really know, and then like the news is really know, and then like the news is really bothering me and that you know, and bothering me and that you know, and bothering me and that you know, and just kind of recording. Right. You just kind of recording. Right. You just kind of recording. Right. You observe observe observe human patterns. I mean, your pattern human patterns. I mean, your pattern human patterns. I mean, your pattern recognition is presumably oriented recognition is presumably oriented recognition is presumably oriented towards where there's emotion, where towards where there's emotion, where towards where there's emotion, where there's patterns in them, how it matches there's patterns in them, how it matches there's patterns in them, how it matches to templates that only you could harbor to templates that only you could harbor to templates that only you could harbor the same way that a really amazing the same way that a really amazing the same way that a really amazing neurosurgeon would look into the brain neurosurgeon would look into the brain neurosurgeon would look into the brain and see and see and see pattern of pattern of pattern of epileptic seizure and would be like epileptic seizure and would be like epileptic seizure and would be like okay, this is even without remembering okay, this is even without remembering okay, this is even without remembering those specific cases, I know which those specific cases, I know which those specific cases, I know which direction to go at this to explore. direction to go at this to explore. direction to go at this to explore. When you hear all that stuff When you hear all that stuff When you hear all that stuff and the stuff I'm talking about here is and the stuff I'm talking about here is and the stuff I'm talking about here is deliberately meant to reflect what you deliberately meant to reflect what you deliberately meant to reflect what you see a lot of on social media. Upset see a lot of on social media. Upset see a lot of on social media. Upset about that political team, upset about about that political team, upset about about that political team, upset about that political team. My life is this but that political team. My life is this but that political team. My life is this but this but this but this but this but this but this but what does that tell you? And what does what does that tell you? And what does what does that tell you? And what does it tell you specifically about where it tell you specifically about where it tell you specifically about where that person should invest effort into that person should invest effort into that person should invest effort into thinking or doing? I realize it's thinking or doing? I realize it's thinking or doing? I realize it's impossible to give it a pan prescriptive impossible to give it a pan prescriptive impossible to give it a pan prescriptive here but like what does that mean when here but like what does that mean when here but like what does that mean when somebody's just really absorbed by all somebody's just really absorbed by all somebody's just really absorbed by all the things going on around them and the things going on around them and the things going on around them and things feel good but Mhm. Mhm. Where do things feel good but Mhm. Mhm. Where do things feel good but Mhm. Mhm. Where do you start to probe and where do you you start to probe and where do you you start to probe and where do you start to start to start to encourage them at least until the next encourage them at least until the next encourage them at least until the next session? The way to probe is to session? The way to probe is to session? The way to probe is to encourage reflection, right? Because encourage reflection, right? Because encourage reflection, right? Because with what you said, I think well, I'm with what you said, I think well, I'm with what you said, I think well, I'm hearing somebody reporting, right? It's hearing somebody reporting, right? It's hearing somebody reporting, right? It's like they're just telling me the news, like they're just telling me the news, like they're just telling me the news, right? Of what went on. I'm doing this, right? Of what went on. I'm doing this, right? Of what went on. I'm doing this, I'm doing that. I feel this way, I'm doing that. I feel this way, I'm doing that. I feel this way, that way, that way, did that. It's kind that way, that way, did that. It's kind that way, that way, did that. It's kind of an inventory or a laundry list, of an inventory or a laundry list, of an inventory or a laundry list, right? So what it makes me think is right? So what it makes me think is right? So what it makes me think is I wonder how much of that you're really I wonder how much of that you're really I wonder how much of that you're really choosing. choosing. choosing. Right? Or how much of that is is Right? Or how much of that is is Right? Or how much of that is is intentional or how much of that is just intentional or how much of that is just intentional or how much of that is just a reflex? The behaviors that in their a reflex? The behaviors that in their a reflex? The behaviors that in their life, how much of it they're choosing or life, how much of it they're choosing or life, how much of it they're choosing or how or they're reporting? how or they're reporting? how or they're reporting? No, the the behaviors. How much of what No, the the behaviors. How much of what No, the the behaviors. How much of what they're reporting? Like how much of that they're reporting? Like how much of that they're reporting? Like how much of that are you really choosing? Right? How much are you really choosing? Right? How much are you really choosing? Right? How much of that is what you want to be doing? of that is what you want to be doing? of that is what you want to be doing? How much of that is working for you? How much of that is working for you? How much of that is working for you? Right? What we're trying to do then and Right? What we're trying to do then and Right? What we're trying to do then and what I want to do then is what I want to do then is what I want to do then is is encourage like to have some interest is encourage like to have some interest is encourage like to have some interest in examination of like whoa, why am I in examination of like whoa, why am I in examination of like whoa, why am I doing all of this, right? Maybe some of doing all of this, right? Maybe some of doing all of this, right? Maybe some of this I really like and I am interested this I really like and I am interested this I really like and I am interested in and others of it I'm just doing in and others of it I'm just doing in and others of it I'm just doing because it's habit or it's routine. I because it's habit or it's routine. I because it's habit or it's routine. I don't even know why I'm doing it or you don't even know why I'm doing it or you don't even know why I'm doing it or you know, if I'm dating, who am I dating? know, if I'm dating, who am I dating? know, if I'm dating, who am I dating? Why why am I dating? How am I choosing? Why why am I dating? How am I choosing? Why why am I dating? How am I choosing? Is that is that also just something that Is that is that also just something that Is that is that also just something that I do? How much am I just kind of along I do? How much am I just kind of along I do? How much am I just kind of along for the ride of what I'm doing that just for the ride of what I'm doing that just for the ride of what I'm doing that just has forward momentum versus what am I has forward momentum versus what am I has forward momentum versus what am I really choosing? Now if we stop and we really choosing? Now if we stop and we really choosing? Now if we stop and we look at it that way, what are you really look at it that way, what are you really look at it that way, what are you really choosing and and also what's working for choosing and and also what's working for choosing and and also what's working for you? Now we're we're off to the races of you? Now we're we're off to the races of you? Now we're we're off to the races of an examined life and you know, we we see an examined life and you know, we we see an examined life and you know, we we see this as I know you know, we do a lot of this as I know you know, we do a lot of this as I know you know, we do a lot of intensive work. We do it with intensive work. We do it with intensive work. We do it with individuals, we do it with couples where individuals, we do it with couples where individuals, we do it with couples where we try and move this process forward we try and move this process forward we try and move this process forward very very very very very very very very very very very very rapidly of looking at one's own life and rapidly of looking at one's own life and rapidly of looking at one's own life and it's very interesting that sometimes you it's very interesting that sometimes you it's very interesting that sometimes you know, by midway through the second day know, by midway through the second day know, by midway through the second day of an intensive process, the person of an intensive process, the person of an intensive process, the person wants to revisit almost everything. They wants to revisit almost everything. They wants to revisit almost everything. They realize, you know, 10-20% of of all realize, you know, 10-20% of of all realize, you know, 10-20% of of all those things I just said I this is what those things I just said I this is what those things I just said I this is what I do, right? That I really I really I do, right? That I really I really I do, right? That I really I really value and and I want to be doing more of value and and I want to be doing more of value and and I want to be doing more of the others I'm not so sure of. the others I'm not so sure of. the others I'm not so sure of. Right? I don't know why I'm doing some Right? I don't know why I'm doing some Right? I don't know why I'm doing some of those things. Now and we we are we're of those things. Now and we we are we're of those things. Now and we we are we're really along the process of change really along the process of change really along the process of change because we're looking at ourselves and because we're looking at ourselves and because we're looking at ourselves and it may seem strange that someone would it may seem strange that someone would it may seem strange that someone would see the 80% of what I just told you I see the 80% of what I just told you I see the 80% of what I just told you I do, I don't know if I want to do or if do, I don't know if I want to do or if do, I don't know if I want to do or if it's working for me but that happens all it's working for me but that happens all it's working for me but that happens all the time when when we're not examining the time when when we're not examining the time when when we're not examining our lives, they just kind of run forward our lives, they just kind of run forward our lives, they just kind of run forward and we accumulate what we accumulate, and we accumulate what we accumulate, and we accumulate what we accumulate, right? And and it's like well, this is right? And and it's like well, this is right? And and it's like well, this is what we we are because this is what I've what we we are because this is what I've what we we are because this is what I've accumulated by, you know, grabbing and accumulated by, you know, grabbing and accumulated by, you know, grabbing and carrying with me as I'm moving through carrying with me as I'm moving through carrying with me as I'm moving through life and there's not an organization to life and there's not an organization to life and there's not an organization to it. So so this idea that we must examine it. So so this idea that we must examine it. So so this idea that we must examine our lives is at the the heart of all of our lives is at the the heart of all of our lives is at the the heart of all of this. That's how we we keep mental this. That's how we we keep mental this. That's how we we keep mental health and our structure of self and in health and our structure of self and in health and our structure of self and in our function of self. We keep our our function of self. We keep our our function of self. We keep our drives in balance. We set ourselves on a drives in balance. We set ourselves on a drives in balance. We set ourselves on a path where where we are in a place to to path where where we are in a place to to path where where we are in a place to to meet future challenges from the best meet future challenges from the best meet future challenges from the best health we can have and also to to meet health we can have and also to to meet health we can have and also to to meet future opportunities. So just like we future opportunities. So just like we future opportunities. So just like we want to do with our physical health, want to do with our physical health, want to do with our physical health, right? We want to build good physical right? We want to build good physical right? We want to build good physical health. Likewise, we want to build good health. Likewise, we want to build good health. Likewise, we want to build good mental health. When that's the best way mental health. When that's the best way mental health. When that's the best way to be when life throws us whatever curve to be when life throws us whatever curve to be when life throws us whatever curve balls come our way and it's also the balls come our way and it's also the balls come our way and it's also the best way to have a good life, to be on best way to have a good life, to be on best way to have a good life, to be on the front foot of life. But we need to the front foot of life. But we need to the front foot of life. But we need to examine ourselves and we need a process examine ourselves and we need a process examine ourselves and we need a process and a structure in order to build good and a structure in order to build good and a structure in order to build good mental health the way we go build good mental health the way we go build good mental health the way we go build good physical health and ultimately that's physical health and ultimately that's physical health and ultimately that's how we build good health. how we build good health. how we build good health. So what I'm hearing is in order to gain So what I'm hearing is in order to gain So what I'm hearing is in order to gain more agency over any areas of our life, more agency over any areas of our life, more agency over any areas of our life, we have to ask the why question. Why am we have to ask the why question. Why am we have to ask the why question. Why am I doing what I'm doing now and why I doing what I'm doing now and why I doing what I'm doing now and why aren't I doing this other thing that aren't I doing this other thing that aren't I doing this other thing that perhaps would serve me better? Like it perhaps would serve me better? Like it perhaps would serve me better? Like it the it starts with questions the it starts with questions the it starts with questions of self. of self. of self. What do you do and this must be What do you do and this must be What do you do and this must be incredibly frustrating, at least it incredibly frustrating, at least it incredibly frustrating, at least it would be to me. What do you do if would be to me. What do you do if would be to me. What do you do if someone you say well, someone you say well, someone you say well, why aren't you know, the person says why aren't you know, the person says why aren't you know, the person says well, I know I should work out but I well, I know I should work out but I well, I know I should work out but I don't and you say well, why not? You don't and you say well, why not? You don't and you say well, why not? You know, and they say well, I don't know, know, and they say well, I don't know, know, and they say well, I don't know, I'm tired. I know I should I'm tired. I know I should I'm tired. I know I should then you say well, then you say well, then you say well, you know, you know, you know, why do you still hang out with why do you still hang out with why do you still hang out with Sharon when you always come back from it Sharon when you always come back from it Sharon when you always come back from it feeling totally exhausted and feeling feeling totally exhausted and feeling feeling totally exhausted and feeling like you've just said all this stuff to like you've just said all this stuff to like you've just said all this stuff to me. You know, me. You know, me. You know, you know, I don't know like what do you you know, I don't know like what do you you know, I don't know like what do you how do you work past the the person how do you work past the the person how do you work past the the person who's just kind of like this is just who's just kind of like this is just who's just kind of like this is just life. This is just this is just what life. This is just this is just what life. This is just this is just what life requires. I got to work, I got my life requires. I got to work, I got my life requires. I got to work, I got my friends. Like what am I going to do? friends. Like what am I going to do? friends. Like what am I going to do? Overhaul my life, you know, and uh and Overhaul my life, you know, and uh and Overhaul my life, you know, and uh and and I this probably varies by region and and I this probably varies by region and and I this probably varies by region and by generation the extent to which people by generation the extent to which people by generation the extent to which people are willing to like look at things and are willing to like look at things and are willing to like look at things and think and and kind of spin them around think and and kind of spin them around think and and kind of spin them around like rotate the cube as I like to call like rotate the cube as I like to call like rotate the cube as I like to call it and look at it from underneath a bit it and look at it from underneath a bit it and look at it from underneath a bit and just as a practice. Like just some and just as a practice. Like just some and just as a practice. Like just some people that's okay. Cool. You know, I'll people that's okay. Cool. You know, I'll people that's okay. Cool. You know, I'll I'll you know, play the no one listens I'll you know, play the no one listens I'll you know, play the no one listens to albums anymore, but the same way they to albums anymore, but the same way they to albums anymore, but the same way they used to, but I'll play the album in used to, but I'll play the album in used to, but I'll play the album in reverse for a bit. reverse for a bit. reverse for a bit. Maybe it'll give me something different. Maybe it'll give me something different. Maybe it'll give me something different. Maybe it won't. Maybe people are like, Maybe it won't. Maybe people are like, Maybe it won't. Maybe people are like, "Ah, that's the album." Like that's just "Ah, that's the album." Like that's just "Ah, that's the album." Like that's just how I do it. So, how do you get somebody how I do it. So, how do you get somebody how I do it. So, how do you get somebody to do this? And of course, I'm not to do this? And of course, I'm not to do this? And of course, I'm not asking you to asking you to asking you to tell us this so that people can tell us this so that people can tell us this so that people can play therapist with others, even though play therapist with others, even though play therapist with others, even though they they naturally do. I'm asking this they they naturally do. I'm asking this they they naturally do. I'm asking this because hopefully this is what people because hopefully this is what people because hopefully this is what people will do for themselves. Well, if someone will do for themselves. Well, if someone will do for themselves. Well, if someone is talking in the way of the the person is talking in the way of the the person is talking in the way of the the person you described, right? We're saying, you described, right? We're saying, you described, right? We're saying, "Well, this is just what I do." And and "Well, this is just what I do." And and "Well, this is just what I do." And and they're describing, I think you said, they're describing, I think you said, they're describing, I think you said, "Every time they go out with Sharon, "Every time they go out with Sharon, "Every time they go out with Sharon, they come home and they feel kind of they come home and they feel kind of they come home and they feel kind of drained. They don't feel good." Then drained. They don't feel good." Then drained. They don't feel good." Then they move on to something else and and they move on to something else and and they move on to something else and and to something else. They might talk about to something else. They might talk about to something else. They might talk about their job and, you know, something their job and, you know, something their job and, you know, something that's frustrating them all the time and that's frustrating them all the time and that's frustrating them all the time and and they just keep going forward. Then I and they just keep going forward. Then I and they just keep going forward. Then I might say, "Well, might say, "Well, might say, "Well, what you're what you're doing is you're what you're what you're doing is you're what you're what you're doing is you're showing both of us where the X's are, showing both of us where the X's are, showing both of us where the X's are, you know, the X's mark the spot, right? you know, the X's mark the spot, right? you know, the X's mark the spot, right? To dig, right? So, you're you're you're To dig, right? So, you're you're you're To dig, right? So, you're you're you're showing us, "Hey, here's where there's showing us, "Hey, here's where there's showing us, "Hey, here's where there's some treasure, right? Let's dig where some treasure, right? Let's dig where some treasure, right? Let's dig where this X is." So, so if you're going out this X is." So, so if you're going out this X is." So, so if you're going out with someone and and every time you see with someone and and every time you see with someone and and every time you see that person, you come home and you feel that person, you come home and you feel that person, you come home and you feel a sense of lethargy and you feel a sense a sense of lethargy and you feel a sense a sense of lethargy and you feel a sense of time wasn't well spent and you kind of time wasn't well spent and you kind of time wasn't well spent and you kind of feel hopeless. Well, it's really of feel hopeless. Well, it's really of feel hopeless. Well, it's really important to to think about why you're important to to think about why you're important to to think about why you're doing that, right? And I would link it doing that, right? And I would link it doing that, right? And I would link it to something else. So, I might say, "So, to something else. So, I might say, "So, to something else. So, I might say, "So, you know, you'd said earlier on a couple you know, you'd said earlier on a couple you know, you'd said earlier on a couple of sessions ago that you really want to of sessions ago that you really want to of sessions ago that you really want to find a partner. You really want to find find a partner. You really want to find find a partner. You really want to find a good relationship." So, so that's a good relationship." So, so that's a good relationship." So, so that's important to you. You told me that it important to you. You told me that it important to you. You told me that it was. And now you're telling me that, you was. And now you're telling me that, you was. And now you're telling me that, you know, you you keep seeing this person know, you you keep seeing this person know, you you keep seeing this person where you know every time you go out the where you know every time you go out the where you know every time you go out the front door that nothing good is going to front door that nothing good is going to front door that nothing good is going to come of it and you're going to come back come of it and you're going to come back come of it and you're going to come back feeling worse than than when you left. feeling worse than than when you left. feeling worse than than when you left. Like we should look at why. And we don't Like we should look at why. And we don't Like we should look at why. And we don't have to be scared to look at why cuz have to be scared to look at why cuz have to be scared to look at why cuz this is where the fear comes in. Like, this is where the fear comes in. Like, this is where the fear comes in. Like, "Oh my gosh, what is wrong with me? Why "Oh my gosh, what is wrong with me? Why "Oh my gosh, what is wrong with me? Why would I be doing that, right?" Somewhere would I be doing that, right?" Somewhere would I be doing that, right?" Somewhere inside of them that person knows that's inside of them that person knows that's inside of them that person knows that's not working for me, but I'm still doing not working for me, but I'm still doing not working for me, but I'm still doing it. So, there's some fear of looking at it. So, there's some fear of looking at it. So, there's some fear of looking at that. So, if we say, "Hey, no harm, no that. So, if we say, "Hey, no harm, no that. So, if we say, "Hey, no harm, no foul. Like let's just let's think about foul. Like let's just let's think about foul. Like let's just let's think about why." You know, it may be that that why." You know, it may be that that why." You know, it may be that that person really wants that that that person really wants that that that person really wants that that that person, in this case I think it's person, in this case I think it's person, in this case I think it's Sharon. I want Sharon to like them, Sharon. I want Sharon to like them, Sharon. I want Sharon to like them, right? And and maybe they they feel a right? And and maybe they they feel a right? And and maybe they they feel a need to be liked. So, they don't like need to be liked. So, they don't like need to be liked. So, they don't like this person, but they think they need this person, but they think they need this person, but they think they need this person to like them. Maybe. Maybe this person to like them. Maybe. Maybe this person to like them. Maybe. Maybe they're a person who always takes too they're a person who always takes too they're a person who always takes too too much care of others versus too much care of others versus too much care of others versus themselves and they don't like Sharon, themselves and they don't like Sharon, themselves and they don't like Sharon, but Sharon likes them. Right? So, they but Sharon likes them. Right? So, they but Sharon likes them. Right? So, they don't really want to end that don't really want to end that don't really want to end that relationship. Like there's something relationship. Like there's something relationship. Like there's something going on there because the person is going on there because the person is going on there because the person is saying, "Hey, I'm doing this thing that saying, "Hey, I'm doing this thing that saying, "Hey, I'm doing this thing that absolutely won't get me what I want." absolutely won't get me what I want." absolutely won't get me what I want." And I'll keep doing it. You say, "Well, And I'll keep doing it. You say, "Well, And I'll keep doing it. You say, "Well, that's not really what you what you that's not really what you what you that's not really what you what you want. If if if you if you are doing it want. If if if you if you are doing it want. If if if you if you are doing it over and over again, you think you're over and over again, you think you're over and over again, you think you're going to keep doing it, it's just going to keep doing it, it's just going to keep doing it, it's just because because because you know, you haven't felt empowered you know, you haven't felt empowered you know, you haven't felt empowered enough that here I can understand myself enough that here I can understand myself enough that here I can understand myself and I can bring some change so that so and I can bring some change so that so and I can bring some change so that so that my behaviors my my choices are that my behaviors my my choices are that my behaviors my my choices are actually in line with my wishes, you actually in line with my wishes, you actually in line with my wishes, you know, with my strivings. So, now we get know, with my strivings. So, now we get know, with my strivings. So, now we get that person interested, right? We tell that person interested, right? We tell that person interested, right? We tell them that there is an X. Let's them that there is an X. Let's them that there is an X. Let's understand why it is that you're still understand why it is that you're still understand why it is that you're still going out with Sharon, right? There's going out with Sharon, right? There's going out with Sharon, right? There's got to be something to learn there. And got to be something to learn there. And got to be something to learn there. And and there always is. If if we dig where and there always is. If if we dig where and there always is. If if we dig where the X's are, we do get some treasure. It the X's are, we do get some treasure. It the X's are, we do get some treasure. It might be a little, it might be a lot, might be a little, it might be a lot, might be a little, it might be a lot, but we learn from that and and we bring but we learn from that and and we bring but we learn from that and and we bring that learning to life, the rubber hits that learning to life, the rubber hits that learning to life, the rubber hits the road as that leads to real life the road as that leads to real life the road as that leads to real life change. change. change. That makes really good sense and and That makes really good sense and and That makes really good sense and and thank you for the clarity of that thank you for the clarity of that thank you for the clarity of that answer. It brings us back to asking why answer. It brings us back to asking why answer. It brings us back to asking why to develop more agency around possibly to develop more agency around possibly to develop more agency around possibly making different choices. It's not making different choices. It's not making different choices. It's not always I mean it one I guess one could always I mean it one I guess one could always I mean it one I guess one could realize like they they really realize like they they really realize like they they really they want that kind of relationship, but they want that kind of relationship, but they want that kind of relationship, but with someone else or they want a with someone else or they want a with someone else or they want a completely different kind of completely different kind of completely different kind of relationship with the same person, relationship with the same person, relationship with the same person, right? Right? And and to work on that. right? Right? And and to work on that. right? Right? And and to work on that. But it starts with asking questions. I But it starts with asking questions. I But it starts with asking questions. I realize I'm going backwards into this, realize I'm going backwards into this, realize I'm going backwards into this, but it goes from um but it goes from um but it goes from um inventories are inventories are inventories are a start toward informing what questions a start toward informing what questions a start toward informing what questions are useful. are useful. are useful. Useful questions probe understanding Useful questions probe understanding Useful questions probe understanding that hopefully develops more agency. that hopefully develops more agency. that hopefully develops more agency. Do you encourage people once they get to Do you encourage people once they get to Do you encourage people once they get to a point of oh yeah, like maybe I want a a point of oh yeah, like maybe I want a a point of oh yeah, like maybe I want a different sort of relationship to this different sort of relationship to this different sort of relationship to this person or thing or activity in life? Do person or thing or activity in life? Do person or thing or activity in life? Do you give them specific act action you give them specific act action you give them specific act action directives like, yeah, like how about directives like, yeah, like how about directives like, yeah, like how about between this session and next session, between this session and next session, between this session and next session, like you go to the gym twice. like you go to the gym twice. like you go to the gym twice. You do whatever there. You do whatever there. You do whatever there. Maybe watch TV and just like pedal, you Maybe watch TV and just like pedal, you Maybe watch TV and just like pedal, you know, on the bike and or maybe you go know, on the bike and or maybe you go know, on the bike and or maybe you go and you like really take a course or or and you like really take a course or or and you like really take a course or or a class rather. Do you tend to give a class rather. Do you tend to give a class rather. Do you tend to give people clear directives about people clear directives about people clear directives about what could really help if you sense that what could really help if you sense that what could really help if you sense that that could really help? that could really help? that could really help? Sometimes, but I think it's much more Sometimes, but I think it's much more Sometimes, but I think it's much more effective if it's arrived at effective if it's arrived at effective if it's arrived at collaboratively. So, so if we decide, collaboratively. So, so if we decide, collaboratively. So, so if we decide, "Hey, you know what would be really "Hey, you know what would be really "Hey, you know what would be really really good?" And we both agree. We really good?" And we both agree. We really good?" And we both agree. We we've talked back and forth now. And if we've talked back and forth now. And if we've talked back and forth now. And if if you can get to the gym once before if you can get to the gym once before if you can get to the gym once before you come back next week, right? And then you come back next week, right? And then you come back next week, right? And then we talk about that back and forth. Like we talk about that back and forth. Like we talk about that back and forth. Like maybe that person wants to go to the gym maybe that person wants to go to the gym maybe that person wants to go to the gym five times, you know, before they come five times, you know, before they come five times, you know, before they come back, but each time they do that, they back, but each time they do that, they back, but each time they do that, they get frustrated with themselves and they get frustrated with themselves and they get frustrated with themselves and they don't go at all, right? So, we might don't go at all, right? So, we might don't go at all, right? So, we might say, "Look, we've been talking about say, "Look, we've been talking about say, "Look, we've been talking about this." And maybe I'll say it or maybe this." And maybe I'll say it or maybe this." And maybe I'll say it or maybe the the other maybe the patient will say the the other maybe the patient will say the the other maybe the patient will say it, right? And to say, "Look, I do I do it, right? And to say, "Look, I do I do it, right? And to say, "Look, I do I do want to be going to the gym. I want to want to be going to the gym. I want to want to be going to the gym. I want to be getting exercise. And I see I go be getting exercise. And I see I go be getting exercise. And I see I go between too much and too little, right? between too much and too little, right? between too much and too little, right? I go between taking on too much and I I go between taking on too much and I I go between taking on too much and I get frustrated and don't do anything. get frustrated and don't do anything. get frustrated and don't do anything. How about something that's more How about something that's more How about something that's more measured, okay? Maybe I'll try and go on measured, okay? Maybe I'll try and go on measured, okay? Maybe I'll try and go on Monday and Friday." Making it way beside Monday and Friday." Making it way beside Monday and Friday." Making it way beside Yeah, you know what? Maybe twice is Yeah, you know what? Maybe twice is Yeah, you know what? Maybe twice is twice is okay or should it be once? twice is okay or should it be once? twice is okay or should it be once? Right? Because if you get once under Right? Because if you get once under Right? Because if you get once under your belt, you can get twice under your your belt, you can get twice under your your belt, you can get twice under your belt the next week. So, we're we're just belt the next week. So, we're we're just belt the next week. So, we're we're just trying to understand so there's no trying to understand so there's no trying to understand so there's no mystery to it and we we know what we're mystery to it and we we know what we're mystery to it and we we know what we're doing. So, if someone who wants to have doing. So, if someone who wants to have doing. So, if someone who wants to have a a different relationship and says, a a different relationship and says, a a different relationship and says, "Well, maybe I could have a good "Well, maybe I could have a good "Well, maybe I could have a good relationship with Sharon, but I'd have relationship with Sharon, but I'd have relationship with Sharon, but I'd have to talk to her about A, B, and C that to talk to her about A, B, and C that to talk to her about A, B, and C that isn't really going well." Okay, how isn't really going well." Okay, how isn't really going well." Okay, how might you do that? Right? Like let's might you do that? Right? Like let's might you do that? Right? Like let's think about it, right? Because that think about it, right? Because that think about it, right? Because that communication isn't going to happen communication isn't going to happen communication isn't going to happen unless you bring it and what's keeping unless you bring it and what's keeping unless you bring it and what's keeping you from that? How might you approach you from that? How might you approach you from that? How might you approach her in a way that you could really talk? her in a way that you could really talk? her in a way that you could really talk? What's what's holding you back? So, What's what's holding you back? So, What's what's holding you back? So, we're we're trying to problem solve, but we're we're trying to problem solve, but we're we're trying to problem solve, but we're doing so in a way that's that's we're doing so in a way that's that's we're doing so in a way that's that's open where we know what we're doing and open where we know what we're doing and open where we know what we're doing and we're not bringing some magic or mystery we're not bringing some magic or mystery we're not bringing some magic or mystery to it. We're trying to move ahead and we to it. We're trying to move ahead and we to it. We're trying to move ahead and we understand it's one step at a time and understand it's one step at a time and understand it's one step at a time and we want to take those steps. So, we we want to take those steps. So, we we want to take those steps. So, we don't want someone to think often we don't want someone to think often we don't want someone to think often we want a process of change to occur so want a process of change to occur so want a process of change to occur so fast that we it can't possibly occur as fast that we it can't possibly occur as fast that we it can't possibly occur as fast as we want it to and then we get fast as we want it to and then we get fast as we want it to and then we get frustrated in 2 weeks, right? So, we frustrated in 2 weeks, right? So, we frustrated in 2 weeks, right? So, we have to set reasonable expectations of, have to set reasonable expectations of, have to set reasonable expectations of, "Hey, it might be could really get "Hey, it might be could really get "Hey, it might be could really get somewhere with this in a couple of somewhere with this in a couple of somewhere with this in a couple of months. It seems like that from our months. It seems like that from our months. It seems like that from our conversations. What do you think? Are we conversations. What do you think? Are we conversations. What do you think? Are we We make sure we're on the same page." We make sure we're on the same page." We make sure we're on the same page." And then we say, "Well, 1 week after And then we say, "Well, 1 week after And then we say, "Well, 1 week after another." Like we could put one foot in another." Like we could put one foot in another." Like we could put one foot in front of the other and we can get front of the other and we can get front of the other and we can get ourselves there. And it's not easy. So, ourselves there. And it's not easy. So, ourselves there. And it's not easy. So, it might not be easy to say broach that it might not be easy to say broach that it might not be easy to say broach that first conversation with Sharon or or get first conversation with Sharon or or get first conversation with Sharon or or get yourself to the gym that first time, yourself to the gym that first time, yourself to the gym that first time, right? But we can help with you bolster right? But we can help with you bolster right? But we can help with you bolster yourself so all your arrows are going in yourself so all your arrows are going in yourself so all your arrows are going in the same direction. You set yourself up the same direction. You set yourself up the same direction. You set yourself up for success, you know, you're not going for success, you know, you're not going for success, you know, you're not going to try to go to to go the morning after to try to go to to go the morning after to try to go to to go the morning after a long night out and you know, we set a long night out and you know, we set a long night out and you know, we set you up for success and you get a win. you up for success and you get a win. you up for success and you get a win. And small wins empower and embolden us And small wins empower and embolden us And small wins empower and embolden us to to to to take a little bit more to to to to take a little bit more to to to to take a little bit more chances and get bigger wins. And you chances and get bigger wins. And you chances and get bigger wins. And you know, if our if our structure of self know, if our if our structure of self know, if our if our structure of self and our function of self are in good and our function of self are in good and our function of self are in good places, then what rests on top of that places, then what rests on top of that places, then what rests on top of that is empowerment. There's a sense of is empowerment. There's a sense of is empowerment. There's a sense of empowerment in us and also a sense of empowerment in us and also a sense of empowerment in us and also a sense of humility that that lets us accept that humility that that lets us accept that humility that that lets us accept that we're human, that things aren't perfect we're human, that things aren't perfect we're human, that things aren't perfect and maybe I have been making them same and maybe I have been making them same and maybe I have been making them same mistake over and over again. Like it's mistake over and over again. Like it's mistake over and over again. Like it's it's all okay. I'm I'm human and if I it's all okay. I'm I'm human and if I it's all okay. I'm I'm human and if I have the humility to accept that and I have the humility to accept that and I have the humility to accept that and I have empowerment, then I can meet the have empowerment, then I can meet the have empowerment, then I can meet the world through agency and this active world through agency and this active world through agency and this active gratitude. You know, I'm I'm grateful gratitude. You know, I'm I'm grateful gratitude. You know, I'm I'm grateful that Sharon's still here and I can I can that Sharon's still here and I can I can that Sharon's still here and I can I can talk to her, right? I'm grateful that talk to her, right? I'm grateful that talk to her, right? I'm grateful that there's a gym for me to go to. I'm there's a gym for me to go to. I'm there's a gym for me to go to. I'm healthy enough for me to get myself healthy enough for me to get myself healthy enough for me to get myself there. And I've got enough agency inside there. And I've got enough agency inside there. And I've got enough agency inside of myself that I'm going to do these of myself that I'm going to do these of myself that I'm going to do these things that I've decided to do. This is things that I've decided to do. This is things that I've decided to do. This is how we we make life change, whether it how we we make life change, whether it how we we make life change, whether it be small or big. And how do we get to be small or big. And how do we get to be small or big. And how do we get to big life change? It starts with small big life change? It starts with small big life change? It starts with small steps. steps. steps. 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Okay, so once again, we're talking about Okay, so once again, we're talking about asking the right questions. asking the right questions. asking the right questions. There's no doubt that our the families There's no doubt that our the families There's no doubt that our the families were were were born into and the families we grew up born into and the families we grew up born into and the families we grew up around and the people we grew up around around and the people we grew up around around and the people we grew up around impact us tremendously. impact us tremendously. impact us tremendously. At what point does it make sense to try At what point does it make sense to try At what point does it make sense to try and think about the patterns that you and think about the patterns that you and think about the patterns that you were exposed to as a way to have more were exposed to as a way to have more were exposed to as a way to have more agency, to ask better questions about agency, to ask better questions about agency, to ask better questions about why? why? why? You know, I think right now in addition You know, I think right now in addition You know, I think right now in addition to this, you know, a little not so to this, you know, a little not so to this, you know, a little not so little debate about the value of little debate about the value of little debate about the value of introspection versus just doing and introspection versus just doing and introspection versus just doing and clearly it's both, there's also a debate clearly it's both, there's also a debate clearly it's both, there's also a debate going on about how much to think about going on about how much to think about going on about how much to think about the past and traumas, etc. the past and traumas, etc. the past and traumas, etc. I won't go into why this is really of I won't go into why this is really of I won't go into why this is really of the times right now, but that the the times right now, but that the the times right now, but that the dilemma seems to be dilemma seems to be dilemma seems to be do you look at your life as something do you look at your life as something do you look at your life as something that's happening now and focus on the that's happening now and focus on the that's happening now and focus on the why question so you do what you need to why question so you do what you need to why question so you do what you need to do to make your life better? do to make your life better? do to make your life better? Or is there real value in identifying Or is there real value in identifying Or is there real value in identifying patterns that you observed or were patterns that you observed or were patterns that you observed or were forced to participate in as a kid forced to participate in as a kid forced to participate in as a kid as a way of having more agency? In other as a way of having more agency? In other as a way of having more agency? In other words, words, words, if someone sees or just verbally hears a if someone sees or just verbally hears a if someone sees or just verbally hears a pattern, does it actually help them make pattern, does it actually help them make pattern, does it actually help them make change? Yes, it does. Yes, it's it's change? Yes, it does. Yes, it's it's change? Yes, it does. Yes, it's it's insight that sets us free and it's insight that sets us free and it's insight that sets us free and it's insight that puts us in the driver's insight that puts us in the driver's insight that puts us in the driver's seat of our lives. Otherwise, we're just seat of our lives. Otherwise, we're just seat of our lives. Otherwise, we're just reacting. So so in the example that you reacting. So so in the example that you reacting. So so in the example that you gave, so imagine a gave, so imagine a gave, so imagine a person who had a very over controlling person who had a very over controlling person who had a very over controlling parent. So so they don't have insight parent. So so they don't have insight parent. So so they don't have insight and they become over controlling and they become over controlling and they become over controlling themselves. They they they associate themselves. They they they associate themselves. They they they associate that high level of control with being that high level of control with being that high level of control with being powerful. They feel less vulnerable when powerful. They feel less vulnerable when powerful. They feel less vulnerable when they're being powerful. So they end up they're being powerful. So they end up they're being powerful. So they end up being over controlling with their own being over controlling with their own being over controlling with their own children just like their parents were. children just like their parents were. children just like their parents were. We say, "Okay, we we can recognize We say, "Okay, we we can recognize We say, "Okay, we we can recognize that." And we'll say it's pattern that." And we'll say it's pattern that." And we'll say it's pattern repetition or whatever words we want to repetition or whatever words we want to repetition or whatever words we want to put to it and we go, "Oh gosh, that put to it and we go, "Oh gosh, that put to it and we go, "Oh gosh, that person doesn't have insight, right?" But person doesn't have insight, right?" But person doesn't have insight, right?" But but when the person is doing the but when the person is doing the but when the person is doing the opposite, that's not necessarily good opposite, that's not necessarily good opposite, that's not necessarily good either. So so a person could say, "Well, either. So so a person could say, "Well, either. So so a person could say, "Well, my parent was over controlling. I'm my parent was over controlling. I'm my parent was over controlling. I'm going to be easy going, right? I'm going going to be easy going, right? I'm going going to be easy going, right? I'm going to be more easy going." But if that to be more easy going." But if that to be more easy going." But if that person doesn't have insight, then they person doesn't have insight, then they person doesn't have insight, then they can become too permissive, right? So now can become too permissive, right? So now can become too permissive, right? So now they're not even they're not controlling they're not even they're not controlling they're not even they're not controlling things in a way that does make sense. things in a way that does make sense. things in a way that does make sense. They're not exercising the healthy They're not exercising the healthy They're not exercising the healthy control of a parent. So they could they control of a parent. So they could they control of a parent. So they could they could identify with what the parent did could identify with what the parent did could identify with what the parent did and do the same thing or they could push and do the same thing or they could push and do the same thing or they could push away with from it and do the opposite. away with from it and do the opposite. away with from it and do the opposite. But but the opposite isn't good either, But but the opposite isn't good either, But but the opposite isn't good either, right? It's insight that lets us say, right? It's insight that lets us say, right? It's insight that lets us say, "Oh, you know, my my parent or parents "Oh, you know, my my parent or parents "Oh, you know, my my parent or parents were were over controlling and and maybe were were over controlling and and maybe were were over controlling and and maybe that even it got to a place it was very that even it got to a place it was very that even it got to a place it was very very difficult and maybe even abusive very difficult and maybe even abusive very difficult and maybe even abusive and and I don't want to be like that, and and I don't want to be like that, and and I don't want to be like that, right? I'm not going to be like that, right? I'm not going to be like that, right? I'm not going to be like that, but I'm not going to rush to the but I'm not going to rush to the but I'm not going to rush to the opposite pole either, right? And now I opposite pole either, right? And now I opposite pole either, right? And now I have to I get to I both have to and get have to I get to I both have to and get have to I get to I both have to and get to figure out what's a healthy level of to figure out what's a healthy level of to figure out what's a healthy level of control." Right? How much control does control." Right? How much control does control." Right? How much control does it make sense to exert to to keep the it make sense to exert to to keep the it make sense to exert to to keep the child safe, for example, but also to child safe, for example, but also to child safe, for example, but also to then allow the child enough latitude to then allow the child enough latitude to then allow the child enough latitude to be growing and making their own be growing and making their own be growing and making their own decisions. So it's insight that says, decisions. So it's insight that says, decisions. So it's insight that says, "Oh, I I see. I see what that was in my "Oh, I I see. I see what that was in my "Oh, I I see. I see what that was in my past." And often we do need to do that. past." And often we do need to do that. past." And often we do need to do that. Often early childhood experiences, Often early childhood experiences, Often early childhood experiences, especially experiences within family especially experiences within family especially experiences within family units, have a great impact upon us and units, have a great impact upon us and units, have a great impact upon us and often will guide our behaviors and then often will guide our behaviors and then often will guide our behaviors and then kind of like automatons, we're acting kind of like automatons, we're acting kind of like automatons, we're acting one way or we're acting another and we one way or we're acting another and we one way or we're acting another and we don't know why. don't know why. don't know why. But it's insight that lets us gain the But it's insight that lets us gain the But it's insight that lets us gain the understanding. Here's how it was understanding. Here's how it was understanding. Here's how it was when I was growing up. I can look at when I was growing up. I can look at when I was growing up. I can look at that. I can see it, good, bad or that. I can see it, good, bad or that. I can see it, good, bad or otherwise, right? And then I can decide, otherwise, right? And then I can decide, otherwise, right? And then I can decide, "How do I want to integrate that "How do I want to integrate that "How do I want to integrate that information how the whole me information how the whole me information how the whole me is going to be in the driver's seat of is going to be in the driver's seat of is going to be in the driver's seat of being a good parent." being a good parent." being a good parent." So there seems to be something So there seems to be something So there seems to be something fundamentally valuable fundamentally valuable fundamentally valuable about about about insights where insights where insights where we realize, "I want to push away from we realize, "I want to push away from we realize, "I want to push away from something, a pattern, something, a pattern, something, a pattern, or I want to get more or I want to get more or I want to get more like someone or something that it that like someone or something that it that like someone or something that it that is uh you know, is uh you know, is uh you know, would serve me better." Um and and I would serve me better." Um and and I would serve me better." Um and and I realize that might just be a giant duh realize that might just be a giant duh realize that might just be a giant duh based on what you said, but I'm trying based on what you said, but I'm trying based on what you said, but I'm trying to think about what that means about the to think about what that means about the to think about what that means about the mind, about the human mind. mind, about the human mind. mind, about the human mind. I can imagine that there are instances I can imagine that there are instances I can imagine that there are instances where people are in patterns of behavior where people are in patterns of behavior where people are in patterns of behavior and they're and they're and they're struggling with them. They they're not struggling with them. They they're not struggling with them. They they're not working for them and they know it and working for them and they know it and working for them and they know it and they want to make the change. This is they want to make the change. This is they want to make the change. This is this is the thing I hear all the time. I this is the thing I hear all the time. I this is the thing I hear all the time. I want to make I know I should do it. I want to make I know I should do it. I want to make I know I should do it. I know I should do it, know I should do it, know I should do it, but they don't do it. but they don't do it. but they don't do it. What you're saying is when they when we What you're saying is when they when we What you're saying is when they when we can can can know that that pattern was something we know that that pattern was something we know that that pattern was something we observed or we're doing the opposite of observed or we're doing the opposite of observed or we're doing the opposite of something we observed, doesn't matter something we observed, doesn't matter something we observed, doesn't matter which, which, which, suddenly we have agency. suddenly we have agency. suddenly we have agency. What do you think that is? This is this What do you think that is? This is this What do you think that is? This is this is a different kind of question than is a different kind of question than is a different kind of question than I've been asking up until now. What is I've been asking up until now. What is I've been asking up until now. What is that? Because that? Because that? Because my clinician can tell me, "Hey, you know my clinician can tell me, "Hey, you know my clinician can tell me, "Hey, you know what? You should really start to eat what? You should really start to eat what? You should really start to eat better and get to sleep on time because better and get to sleep on time because better and get to sleep on time because we both know this isn't serving you we both know this isn't serving you we both know this isn't serving you well." And the person comes back and well." And the person comes back and well." And the person comes back and they're not doing the behaviors. They're they're not doing the behaviors. They're they're not doing the behaviors. They're not changing their behaviors. They're not changing their behaviors. They're not changing their behaviors. They're not changing And then you ask them, not changing And then you ask them, not changing And then you ask them, "Hey, like what is this about?" And you "Hey, like what is this about?" And you "Hey, like what is this about?" And you get to a place where it reflects get to a place where it reflects get to a place where it reflects something in childhood. They're either something in childhood. They're either something in childhood. They're either going against or they're going with that going against or they're going with that going against or they're going with that pattern. pattern. pattern. You're telling me that that realization You're telling me that that realization You're telling me that that realization gives them a sense of agency. Aha, it's gives them a sense of agency. Aha, it's gives them a sense of agency. Aha, it's it's comes from me, it's comes from me, it's comes from me, but but but I didn't program that in like what is I didn't program that in like what is I didn't program that in like what is the insight? Like what allows that? What the insight? Like what allows that? What the insight? Like what allows that? What is the wedge that lets people change is the wedge that lets people change is the wedge that lets people change their behavior simply by understanding their behavior simply by understanding their behavior simply by understanding that some or all of it is inherited from that some or all of it is inherited from that some or all of it is inherited from a pattern? When we realize that there's a pattern? When we realize that there's a pattern? When we realize that there's something, whether it's external or something, whether it's external or something, whether it's external or internal, controlling us, internal, controlling us, internal, controlling us, right? It it defuses that tension. And right? It it defuses that tension. And right? It it defuses that tension. And and part of why it defuses the tension and part of why it defuses the tension and part of why it defuses the tension and and lets us see clearly and gives us and and lets us see clearly and gives us and and lets us see clearly and gives us control is because we don't like it. You control is because we don't like it. You control is because we don't like it. You know, none of us want to be like in the know, none of us want to be like in the know, none of us want to be like in the the Manchurian Candidate, right? Where the Manchurian Candidate, right? Where the Manchurian Candidate, right? Where there's a sound and then we behave in a there's a sound and then we behave in a there's a sound and then we behave in a certain way and you know, we're certain way and you know, we're certain way and you know, we're triggered in a certain way and then we triggered in a certain way and then we triggered in a certain way and then we just do something and we do it just do something and we do it just do something and we do it automatically. Like we don't like that. automatically. Like we don't like that. automatically. Like we don't like that. And and if we realize, "Oh, that's And and if we realize, "Oh, that's And and if we realize, "Oh, that's happening happening happening in me." So if I realize, "Gosh, I've in me." So if I realize, "Gosh, I've in me." So if I realize, "Gosh, I've been programmed, right? And and if been programmed, right? And and if been programmed, right? And and if someone is disagreeing with me, like it someone is disagreeing with me, like it someone is disagreeing with me, like it makes me feel so bad or so vulnerable or makes me feel so bad or so vulnerable or makes me feel so bad or so vulnerable or insecure, you know, it makes me feel insecure, you know, it makes me feel insecure, you know, it makes me feel like I felt when I was a kid, right? So like I felt when I was a kid, right? So like I felt when I was a kid, right? So now what I'm doing is I'm being just now what I'm doing is I'm being just now what I'm doing is I'm being just like the parent was. I'm not giving my like the parent was. I'm not giving my like the parent was. I'm not giving my child a chance to have his or her own child a chance to have his or her own child a chance to have his or her own opinion and now I cuz I won't let myself opinion and now I cuz I won't let myself opinion and now I cuz I won't let myself tolerate that feeling. So so what's tolerate that feeling. So so what's tolerate that feeling. So so what's happened is it's just been automatic happened is it's just been automatic happened is it's just been automatic from when I was a kid and it felt so bad from when I was a kid and it felt so bad from when I was a kid and it felt so bad and now I'm in the position of trying to and now I'm in the position of trying to and now I'm in the position of trying to make myself feel good by imposing that make myself feel good by imposing that make myself feel good by imposing that on my own child. I don't want to do on my own child. I don't want to do on my own child. I don't want to do that, right? Wow, I I see that or or that, right? Wow, I I see that or or that, right? Wow, I I see that or or realizing that because that happened and realizing that because that happened and realizing that because that happened and and I wasn't allowed to have my own say and I wasn't allowed to have my own say and I wasn't allowed to have my own say when I was growing up, I'm I'm letting when I was growing up, I'm I'm letting when I was growing up, I'm I'm letting my children kind of run wild in ways my children kind of run wild in ways my children kind of run wild in ways that aren't even safe for them. And and that aren't even safe for them. And and that aren't even safe for them. And and and wow, like I I I pushed so hard and wow, like I I I pushed so hard and wow, like I I I pushed so hard against that, right? It's this against that, right? It's this against that, right? It's this realization that that something inside realization that that something inside realization that that something inside of us is is being triggered and then we of us is is being triggered and then we of us is is being triggered and then we just do something automatically that we just do something automatically that we just do something automatically that we haven't thought about or decided to, haven't thought about or decided to, haven't thought about or decided to, right? That is a very very strong uh right? That is a very very strong uh right? That is a very very strong uh effect on humans. We really don't like effect on humans. We really don't like effect on humans. We really don't like that. So if we can combine that with that. So if we can combine that with that. So if we can combine that with with compassionate curiosity, like if if with compassionate curiosity, like if if with compassionate curiosity, like if if one of us were really really really one of us were really really really one of us were really really really hungry and there's food right outside hungry and there's food right outside hungry and there's food right outside the door, but we're not getting up to the door, but we're not getting up to the door, but we're not getting up to get it, it's a reasonable question to get it, it's a reasonable question to get it, it's a reasonable question to ask why. ask why. ask why. Right? I mean, there's got to be Right? I mean, there's got to be Right? I mean, there's got to be something very powerful to keep a person something very powerful to keep a person something very powerful to keep a person who's so hungry from just going and who's so hungry from just going and who's so hungry from just going and getting food. What are these forces getting food. What are these forces getting food. What are these forces within us that are exerting such control within us that are exerting such control within us that are exerting such control over us? Now we get the person to be on over us? Now we get the person to be on over us? Now we get the person to be on their own side. Instead of saying, "I their own side. Instead of saying, "I their own side. Instead of saying, "I want to do A, B and C, but I just can't want to do A, B and C, but I just can't want to do A, B and C, but I just can't or there's just not enough time." or there's just not enough time." or there's just not enough time." They're like, "Whoa, that's not you They're like, "Whoa, that's not you They're like, "Whoa, that's not you know, I I don't know why is it that I'm know, I I don't know why is it that I'm know, I I don't know why is it that I'm telling myself do I really want to do telling myself do I really want to do telling myself do I really want to do it? If I do, what's keeping me from it? If I do, what's keeping me from it? If I do, what's keeping me from doing it? How am I keeping me from doing doing it? How am I keeping me from doing doing it? How am I keeping me from doing it?" Now we bring our gumption, you it?" Now we bring our gumption, you it?" Now we bring our gumption, you know, we bring our our know, we bring our our know, we bring our our resources internally and externally to resources internally and externally to resources internally and externally to the problem and and the whole thing the problem and and the whole thing the problem and and the whole thing shifts. shifts. shifts. Oh, man. Oh, man. Oh, man. That That That helps a lot. helps a lot. helps a lot. Not just me. I have to say people not Not just me. I have to say people not Not just me. I have to say people not feeling motivated, people not being able feeling motivated, people not being able feeling motivated, people not being able to break a pattern that isn't serving to break a pattern that isn't serving to break a pattern that isn't serving them, whether or not it's action or them, whether or not it's action or them, whether or not it's action or inaction, inaction, inaction, is probably the most common question I is probably the most common question I is probably the most common question I get. Mhm. It's the most common theme. get. Mhm. It's the most common theme. get. Mhm. It's the most common theme. It's probably the reason why podcasts It's probably the reason why podcasts It's probably the reason why podcasts like this can exist. I mean, I think like this can exist. I mean, I think like this can exist. I mean, I think people have a natural curiosity about people have a natural curiosity about people have a natural curiosity about the science and the intellectual aspects the science and the intellectual aspects the science and the intellectual aspects and and and you know, neural circuits and hormones you know, neural circuits and hormones you know, neural circuits and hormones and all that kind of stuff, but I think and all that kind of stuff, but I think and all that kind of stuff, but I think ultimately people want more agency over ultimately people want more agency over ultimately people want more agency over their behavior. They want to feel that. their behavior. They want to feel that. their behavior. They want to feel that. >> Yes. And I think what you said >> Yes. And I think what you said >> Yes. And I think what you said is is is is is is glaring in the room, at least for me, glaring in the room, at least for me, glaring in the room, at least for me, that people don't like to be controlled. that people don't like to be controlled. that people don't like to be controlled. So much so that we know that So much so that we know that So much so that we know that we got kids to quit smoking we got kids to quit smoking we got kids to quit smoking um back in the you know, in the '90s, um back in the you know, in the '90s, um back in the you know, in the '90s, early 2000s by advertisements of um early 2000s by advertisements of um early 2000s by advertisements of um rich old white men writhing their hands, rich old white men writhing their hands, rich old white men writhing their hands, cackling about the health problems that cackling about the health problems that cackling about the health problems that people are getting while they're getting people are getting while they're getting people are getting while they're getting rich. That's what stopped teens from rich. That's what stopped teens from rich. That's what stopped teens from smoking. smoking. smoking. >> Mhm. >> Mhm. >> Mhm. Mhm. Mhm. Mhm. >> Right? It was you're not going to >> Right? It was you're not going to >> Right? It was you're not going to control me. It wasn't that they didn't control me. It wasn't that they didn't control me. It wasn't that they didn't like smoking. Nicotine's incredibly like smoking. Nicotine's incredibly like smoking. Nicotine's incredibly reinforcing, right? The moment that you reinforcing, right? The moment that you reinforcing, right? The moment that you have an enemy, have an enemy, have an enemy, you feel the sense of agency. That you you feel the sense of agency. That you you feel the sense of agency. That you you you said no, you're on your own you you said no, you're on your own you you said no, you're on your own side. Mhm. So realizing one is being side. Mhm. So realizing one is being side. Mhm. So realizing one is being controlled Right. is I'm I realize I'm controlled Right. is I'm I realize I'm controlled Right. is I'm I realize I'm just saying what you're saying, but I just saying what you're saying, but I just saying what you're saying, but I want to make sure this really resonates want to make sure this really resonates want to make sure this really resonates in my own mind and for the listeners, in my own mind and for the listeners, in my own mind and for the listeners, that's that's that's the essence of of agency. You have to be the essence of of agency. You have to be the essence of of agency. You have to be on your own side. And to get on your own on your own side. And to get on your own on your own side. And to get on your own side, it's helpful to not necessarily side, it's helpful to not necessarily side, it's helpful to not necessarily have an enemy, but to say, "Oh, this was have an enemy, but to say, "Oh, this was have an enemy, but to say, "Oh, this was this is all about my parents and I'm this is all about my parents and I'm this is all about my parents and I'm going in the opposite direction in ways going in the opposite direction in ways going in the opposite direction in ways that are defeating me. I'm they're that are defeating me. I'm they're that are defeating me. I'm they're controlling me even though I think I'm controlling me even though I think I'm controlling me even though I think I'm controlling me." Boom. Right. Right. controlling me." Boom. Right. Right. controlling me." Boom. Right. Right. >> Behavior changes. Or, "Oh, this is >> Behavior changes. Or, "Oh, this is >> Behavior changes. Or, "Oh, this is just like just like just like my mom or just like my dad or just like my mom or just like my dad or just like my mom or just like my dad or just like the environment I grew up in." And now the environment I grew up in." And now the environment I grew up in." And now you can somebody can advocate for you can somebody can advocate for you can somebody can advocate for themselves. Yes. I also see this in the themselves. Yes. I also see this in the themselves. Yes. I also see this in the in the media nowadays. I mean, there's in the media nowadays. I mean, there's in the media nowadays. I mean, there's so much of social media is about us so much of social media is about us so much of social media is about us them. them. them. And gosh, people are like perfectly And gosh, people are like perfectly And gosh, people are like perfectly happy for understandable reasons to be happy for understandable reasons to be happy for understandable reasons to be like, "You're not going to control me." like, "You're not going to control me." like, "You're not going to control me." We saw this during the pandemic. We We We saw this during the pandemic. We We We saw this during the pandemic. We We see this at every level. What is this see this at every level. What is this see this at every level. What is this human thing about not wanting to be human thing about not wanting to be human thing about not wanting to be controlled that in this context is very controlled that in this context is very controlled that in this context is very positive? Yeah. Yeah. We There's positive? Yeah. Yeah. We There's positive? Yeah. Yeah. We There's something about the human something about the human something about the human primate brain. primate brain. primate brain. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. >> Yeah, like we we don't like to be >> Yeah, like we we don't like to be >> Yeah, like we we don't like to be controlled. And that sense of agency can controlled. And that sense of agency can controlled. And that sense of agency can can blossom out of that. can blossom out of that. can blossom out of that. >> Yeah. I think that's incredible. Yeah. >> Yeah. I think that's incredible. Yeah. >> Yeah. I think that's incredible. Yeah. We we we don't want to think or know We we we don't want to think or know We we we don't want to think or know that that someone or something is that that someone or something is that that someone or something is putting one over on us. Like, you know, putting one over on us. Like, you know, putting one over on us. Like, you know, humans don't want to be dupes. We don't humans don't want to be dupes. We don't humans don't want to be dupes. We don't We don't like that, right? It makes us We don't like that, right? It makes us We don't like that, right? It makes us upset. And here the magic realization is upset. And here the magic realization is upset. And here the magic realization is that there is no enemy. that there is no enemy. that there is no enemy. Right? That that we can get in our own Right? That that we can get in our own Right? That that we can get in our own way. And who's most likely to thwart my way. And who's most likely to thwart my way. And who's most likely to thwart my efforts towards being healthier? It's efforts towards being healthier? It's efforts towards being healthier? It's absolutely me. absolutely me. absolutely me. Right? So, I can get in my own way, but Right? So, I can get in my own way, but Right? So, I can get in my own way, but it doesn't mean I'm my enemy. So, if I it doesn't mean I'm my enemy. So, if I it doesn't mean I'm my enemy. So, if I if I do really I want to be healthier if I do really I want to be healthier if I do really I want to be healthier and I want to get to the gym to be and I want to get to the gym to be and I want to get to the gym to be healthier. Okay, who's standing in my healthier. Okay, who's standing in my healthier. Okay, who's standing in my way then? It will be me. That. But then way then? It will be me. That. But then way then? It will be me. That. But then why am I standing in my way? Do I why am I standing in my way? Do I why am I standing in my way? Do I secretly hate myself and I want myself secretly hate myself and I want myself secretly hate myself and I want myself not to be healthy? No, it's it's not not to be healthy? No, it's it's not not to be healthy? No, it's it's not that. If I'm standing in my own way, that. If I'm standing in my own way, that. If I'm standing in my own way, there's a reason. I really think that there's a reason. I really think that there's a reason. I really think that that I have so much to do and and and that I have so much to do and and and that I have so much to do and and and it's for other people and it means more it's for other people and it means more it's for other people and it means more than me. So, really I don't think I than me. So, really I don't think I than me. So, really I don't think I deserve the time and energy it would it deserve the time and energy it would it deserve the time and energy it would it would take. I'm not going to spend it on would take. I'm not going to spend it on would take. I'm not going to spend it on myself. Maybe that's why I don't go. Or myself. Maybe that's why I don't go. Or myself. Maybe that's why I don't go. Or maybe I don't go because I'm trying to maybe I don't go because I'm trying to maybe I don't go because I'm trying to protect myself, right? Because I'm protect myself, right? Because I'm protect myself, right? Because I'm worried the last couple times I tried it worried the last couple times I tried it worried the last couple times I tried it didn't go well and I felt worse. So, I didn't go well and I felt worse. So, I didn't go well and I felt worse. So, I don't even want to start. So, I'm don't even want to start. So, I'm don't even want to start. So, I'm standing in my own way because of fear standing in my own way because of fear standing in my own way because of fear of failure, right? There's a lot of of failure, right? There's a lot of of failure, right? There's a lot of reasons. There's many many many reasons reasons. There's many many many reasons reasons. There's many many many reasons we could be standing in our own way, but we could be standing in our own way, but we could be standing in our own way, but we're not our own enemy. So, the we're not our own enemy. So, the we're not our own enemy. So, the realization of like why am I doing this? realization of like why am I doing this? realization of like why am I doing this? I don't have to do this actually. I don't have to do this actually. I don't have to do this actually. There's one me and I can say, "Well, if There's one me and I can say, "Well, if There's one me and I can say, "Well, if I both if I really want to go to the I both if I really want to go to the I both if I really want to go to the gym, but I'm not going I want to go and gym, but I'm not going I want to go and gym, but I'm not going I want to go and I don't want to go." I don't want to go." I don't want to go." It must be true or I'd be there, right? It must be true or I'd be there, right? It must be true or I'd be there, right? Why is it that I don't want to go? Why is it that I don't want to go? Why is it that I don't want to go? Am I not worth the time and energy? Am I not worth the time and energy? Am I not worth the time and energy? Maybe. Do I think there're more Maybe. Do I think there're more Maybe. Do I think there're more important things to do? Really? I do important things to do? Really? I do important things to do? Really? I do really think that? Right? And I'm not really think that? Right? And I'm not really think that? Right? And I'm not admitting it to myself. Am I afraid that admitting it to myself. Am I afraid that admitting it to myself. Am I afraid that if I try I'll fail? Right? There's got if I try I'll fail? Right? There's got if I try I'll fail? Right? There's got to be a reason for that. So, let me get to be a reason for that. So, let me get to be a reason for that. So, let me get on the same page. As I've often said, to on the same page. As I've often said, to on the same page. As I've often said, to to to to further the example would be, to to to further the example would be, to to to further the example would be, "Hey, you get to decide if you if if you "Hey, you get to decide if you if if you "Hey, you get to decide if you if if you go to the gym or not. We just want you go to the gym or not. We just want you go to the gym or not. We just want you to be on the same page with yourself. to be on the same page with yourself. to be on the same page with yourself. Like, you can decide not to. If you say, Like, you can decide not to. If you say, Like, you can decide not to. If you say, 'Actually, there're more There're things 'Actually, there're more There're things 'Actually, there're more There're things that are bigger that are bigger that are bigger priorities for my time now.' Someone priorities for my time now.' Someone priorities for my time now.' Someone else is sick. I'm taking care of that else is sick. I'm taking care of that else is sick. I'm taking care of that person. It really that is what I'm person. It really that is what I'm person. It really that is what I'm choosing now." Okay, so I'm not going to choosing now." Okay, so I'm not going to choosing now." Okay, so I'm not going to go now and the whole me decides that. go now and the whole me decides that. go now and the whole me decides that. But, on the other side of this, when But, on the other side of this, when But, on the other side of this, when this drain on time my time and energy is this drain on time my time and energy is this drain on time my time and energy is different, then I am going to go. Right? different, then I am going to go. Right? different, then I am going to go. Right? Now the person's on the same page and Now the person's on the same page and Now the person's on the same page and they're not making themselves feel worse they're not making themselves feel worse they're not making themselves feel worse by wanting to go and not going. Or I by wanting to go and not going. Or I by wanting to go and not going. Or I might say, "I really do want to go, but might say, "I really do want to go, but might say, "I really do want to go, but I know I'm standing in my own way I know I'm standing in my own way I know I'm standing in my own way because I'm afraid I'll fail." Okay, and because I'm afraid I'll fail." Okay, and because I'm afraid I'll fail." Okay, and then maybe I get upset. The last eight then maybe I get upset. The last eight then maybe I get upset. The last eight times I tried I failed, right? You know, times I tried I failed, right? You know, times I tried I failed, right? You know, now we're we're really digging you know, now we're we're really digging you know, now we're we're really digging you know, where the money's at, right? Because we where the money's at, right? Because we where the money's at, right? Because we go and look and say, "Okay, you're go and look and say, "Okay, you're go and look and say, "Okay, you're you're protecting yourself. How do we you're protecting yourself. How do we you're protecting yourself. How do we How do we try and set you up for How do we try and set you up for How do we try and set you up for success? So So, you'll want to go success? So So, you'll want to go success? So So, you'll want to go forward this time because you'll see forward this time because you'll see forward this time because you'll see that it's different from the other times that it's different from the other times that it's different from the other times and you won't just be repeating and you won't just be repeating and you won't just be repeating something that just made you feel bad." something that just made you feel bad." something that just made you feel bad." So, that's how we get our all our arrows So, that's how we get our all our arrows So, that's how we get our all our arrows pointing in the same direction. We pointing in the same direction. We pointing in the same direction. We realize there is no enemy here. There is realize there is no enemy here. There is realize there is no enemy here. There is me standing in my own way, but like me standing in my own way, but like me standing in my own way, but like that's okay. I I can look at that and I that's okay. I I can look at that and I that's okay. I I can look at that and I can figure that out. And now we're at can figure that out. And now we're at can figure that out. And now we're at that simple goodness principle where, that simple goodness principle where, that simple goodness principle where, you know, we're all on the same page you know, we're all on the same page you know, we're all on the same page with ourselves and we accomplish our with ourselves and we accomplish our with ourselves and we accomplish our goals. goals. goals. We wouldn't wish trauma on anybody, but We wouldn't wish trauma on anybody, but We wouldn't wish trauma on anybody, but how is it then that people who had how is it then that people who had how is it then that people who had reasonably healthy or trauma-free reasonably healthy or trauma-free reasonably healthy or trauma-free childhoods, how do they operate in the childhoods, how do they operate in the childhoods, how do they operate in the world? Are they moving toward things world? Are they moving toward things world? Are they moving toward things from a genuine place of curiosity and from a genuine place of curiosity and from a genuine place of curiosity and they're not pushing off anything in they're not pushing off anything in they're not pushing off anything in this, you know, idyllic example? That this, you know, idyllic example? That this, you know, idyllic example? That they're not they're not they're not countering a childhood example. Does countering a childhood example. Does countering a childhood example. Does that represent the ultimate goal that that represent the ultimate goal that that represent the ultimate goal that we're moving towards things because we we're moving towards things because we we're moving towards things because we want them and we're not resisting want them and we're not resisting want them and we're not resisting anything nor are we copying bad patterns anything nor are we copying bad patterns anything nor are we copying bad patterns from our from our childhood? from our from our childhood? from our from our childhood? >> Yes, in the sense that I think that's >> Yes, in the sense that I think that's >> Yes, in the sense that I think that's what I would map to living what I would map to living what I would map to living intentionally, right? To being as intentionally, right? To being as intentionally, right? To being as self-aware as we can be while also self-aware as we can be while also self-aware as we can be while also realizing we can't be completely realizing we can't be completely realizing we can't be completely self-aware and then living self-aware and then living self-aware and then living intentionally. So, yes, that's what intentionally. So, yes, that's what intentionally. So, yes, that's what we're trying to get to. And the presence we're trying to get to. And the presence we're trying to get to. And the presence of trauma of of real trauma that of trauma of of real trauma that of trauma of of real trauma that overwhelms our coping skills and leaves overwhelms our coping skills and leaves overwhelms our coping skills and leaves our brain function different going our brain function different going our brain function different going forward, it does make it harder, right? forward, it does make it harder, right? forward, it does make it harder, right? To achieve these things, which is why we To achieve these things, which is why we To achieve these things, which is why we want to look at trauma if there are want to look at trauma if there are want to look at trauma if there are traumas in our lives and how they they traumas in our lives and how they they traumas in our lives and how they they may have changed us, but it doesn't may have changed us, but it doesn't may have changed us, but it doesn't prevent that. I mean, people can have prevent that. I mean, people can have prevent that. I mean, people can have significant traumas and still be on this significant traumas and still be on this significant traumas and still be on this path and and have some insight into how path and and have some insight into how path and and have some insight into how the trauma is affecting them and and the trauma is affecting them and and the trauma is affecting them and and even insight that the trauma needs more even insight that the trauma needs more even insight that the trauma needs more work maybe to really get our arms around work maybe to really get our arms around work maybe to really get our arms around it. But, that person can still get it. But, that person can still get it. But, that person can still get there. Likewise, someone who hasn't had there. Likewise, someone who hasn't had there. Likewise, someone who hasn't had trauma might have real difficulty trauma might have real difficulty trauma might have real difficulty getting there. If I haven't had major getting there. If I haven't had major getting there. If I haven't had major trauma, but, you know, just trauma, but, you know, just trauma, but, you know, just circumstances or my own maybe overly circumstances or my own maybe overly circumstances or my own maybe overly ambitious with not enough time and ambitious with not enough time and ambitious with not enough time and energy. Hey, I did try and get to the energy. Hey, I did try and get to the energy. Hey, I did try and get to the gym four or five times and it didn't gym four or five times and it didn't gym four or five times and it didn't work out and I really do feel down on work out and I really do feel down on work out and I really do feel down on myself and it's not linked to any prior myself and it's not linked to any prior myself and it's not linked to any prior trauma. It's just I've gotten in this trauma. It's just I've gotten in this trauma. It's just I've gotten in this cycle and every time I think about being cycle and every time I think about being cycle and every time I think about being healthier now I'm telling myself, "Oh, healthier now I'm telling myself, "Oh, healthier now I'm telling myself, "Oh, you'll never be able to do it or you you'll never be able to do it or you you'll never be able to do it or you messed it up three times." And so, I'm messed it up three times." And so, I'm messed it up three times." And so, I'm inadvertently making it harder for inadvertently making it harder for inadvertently making it harder for myself and and without any preexisting myself and and without any preexisting myself and and without any preexisting trauma, that person can end up having trauma, that person can end up having trauma, that person can end up having much more trouble, you know, than much more trouble, you know, than much more trouble, you know, than someone who does have preexisting someone who does have preexisting someone who does have preexisting trauma. Or how do you respond to the trauma. Or how do you respond to the trauma. Or how do you respond to the words, "I get tired just thinking about words, "I get tired just thinking about words, "I get tired just thinking about it"? it"? it"? Like something that would be good for Like something that would be good for Like something that would be good for somebody. "I'm tired just thinking about somebody. "I'm tired just thinking about somebody. "I'm tired just thinking about it." And it involves energy. Right. I'm it." And it involves energy. Right. I'm it." And it involves energy. Right. I'm not giving you a very full picture, but not giving you a very full picture, but not giving you a very full picture, but I'm guessing you've heard those words I'm guessing you've heard those words I'm guessing you've heard those words before. Well, I want to understand a lot before. Well, I want to understand a lot before. Well, I want to understand a lot more about that. Mhm. So, what that more about that. Mhm. So, what that more about that. Mhm. So, what that tells me is there's a lot of brain space tells me is there's a lot of brain space tells me is there's a lot of brain space and a lot of energy that's taken up in and a lot of energy that's taken up in and a lot of energy that's taken up in the thinking of it. So, for for a lot of the thinking of it. So, for for a lot of the thinking of it. So, for for a lot of people, they get so tired of thinking people, they get so tired of thinking people, they get so tired of thinking about trying to go to the gym because about trying to go to the gym because about trying to go to the gym because thinking about trying to go to the gym thinking about trying to go to the gym thinking about trying to go to the gym takes more energy from them than takes more energy from them than takes more energy from them than actually being there, right? Because actually being there, right? Because actually being there, right? Because it's running around in their head how it's running around in their head how it's running around in their head how they failed and how bad they're going to they failed and how bad they're going to they failed and how bad they're going to feel and how they really want to do this feel and how they really want to do this feel and how they really want to do this and maybe they will and maybe they won't and maybe they will and maybe they won't and maybe they will and maybe they won't and there's so much going on inside of and there's so much going on inside of and there's so much going on inside of them that they're making something very them that they're making something very them that they're making something very very complicated. So, I want to very complicated. So, I want to very complicated. So, I want to understand why all that energy understand why all that energy understand why all that energy inside, right? And is there a way that inside, right? And is there a way that inside, right? And is there a way that we can simplify that? That's a marker we can simplify that? That's a marker we can simplify that? That's a marker that there's something going on that that there's something going on that that there's something going on that that we we want to be able to get at that we we want to be able to get at that we we want to be able to get at because it's not the healthiest process, because it's not the healthiest process, because it's not the healthiest process, you know, to say that there's a lot of you know, to say that there's a lot of you know, to say that there's a lot of internal turmoil about something that internal turmoil about something that internal turmoil about something that almost certainly can be better almost certainly can be better almost certainly can be better understood and simplified. So, that understood and simplified. So, that understood and simplified. So, that statement represents 10 mental workouts. statement represents 10 mental workouts. statement represents 10 mental workouts. That is as exhausting them. At least At That is as exhausting them. At least At That is as exhausting them. At least At least that's the the the the the sense least that's the the the the the sense least that's the the the the the sense it might give you. it might give you. it might give you. >> Yeah. Well, with no im- improvement in >> Yeah. Well, with no im- improvement in >> Yeah. Well, with no im- improvement in physical health. So, the 10 mental physical health. So, the 10 mental physical health. So, the 10 mental workouts just dis- just wasted that workouts just dis- just wasted that workouts just dis- just wasted that energy, right? There is no improvement energy, right? There is no improvement energy, right? There is no improvement in physical health. Let's take those 10 in physical health. Let's take those 10 in physical health. Let's take those 10 mental workouts and figure out, you mental workouts and figure out, you mental workouts and figure out, you know, how can we turn that into one know, how can we turn that into one know, how can we turn that into one physical workout? That person's going to physical workout? That person's going to physical workout? That person's going to feel a lot better physically and feel a lot better physically and feel a lot better physically and mentally. mentally. mentally. I want to table a couple of common I want to table a couple of common I want to table a couple of common statements about the mind and statements about the mind and statements about the mind and psychology. psychology. psychology. I'm perfectly willing to accept that I'm perfectly willing to accept that I'm perfectly willing to accept that they're true, but I have a feeling they're true, but I have a feeling they're true, but I have a feeling they're at least not entirely true. they're at least not entirely true. they're at least not entirely true. Okay. One is however you talk to others, Okay. One is however you talk to others, Okay. One is however you talk to others, that's also how you talk to yourself. Is that's also how you talk to yourself. Is that's also how you talk to yourself. Is this just like nonsense? I mean, this just like nonsense? I mean, this just like nonsense? I mean, there's some people that are very harsh there's some people that are very harsh there's some people that are very harsh with other people. Are they walking with other people. Are they walking with other people. Are they walking around being harsh to themselves? Are around being harsh to themselves? Are around being harsh to themselves? Are they like just at peace within there and they like just at peace within there and they like just at peace within there and they're like externalizing all I had a they're like externalizing all I had a they're like externalizing all I had a a former colleague. Let's just keep him a former colleague. Let's just keep him a former colleague. Let's just keep him anonymous. A former colleague. And he anonymous. A former colleague. And he anonymous. A former colleague. And he used to say, "I don't get stressed. I used to say, "I don't get stressed. I used to say, "I don't get stressed. I give stress." Mhm. I mean, that feels give stress." Mhm. I mean, that feels give stress." Mhm. I mean, that feels true to me. true to me. true to me. Um, Um, Um, you know, he gave up all his cards by you know, he gave up all his cards by you know, he gave up all his cards by telling me that. Um, but so I was telling me that. Um, but so I was telling me that. Um, but so I was grateful for that statement. But, he he grateful for that statement. But, he he grateful for that statement. But, he he was very proud of it. He's like, "I was very proud of it. He's like, "I was very proud of it. He's like, "I don't I don't get stressed. I I give don't I don't get stressed. I I give don't I don't get stressed. I I give stress." stress." stress." And I thought, "I bet you he's pretty And I thought, "I bet you he's pretty And I thought, "I bet you he's pretty stressed in there." And then I realized stressed in there." And then I realized stressed in there." And then I realized I don't know what the hell's going on in I don't know what the hell's going on in I don't know what the hell's going on in there. Maybe he's just absolutely right. there. Maybe he's just absolutely right. there. Maybe he's just absolutely right. So, can we make that assumption that how So, can we make that assumption that how So, can we make that assumption that how people treat others is really how they people treat others is really how they people treat others is really how they treat themselves? No. Mhm. treat themselves? No. Mhm. treat themselves? No. Mhm. >> Sometimes that may be true, but >> Sometimes that may be true, but >> Sometimes that may be true, but sometimes that may not be true. So, the sometimes that may not be true. So, the sometimes that may not be true. So, the statement has no validity. Maybe yes, statement has no validity. Maybe yes, statement has no validity. Maybe yes, maybe no. You have to look at the person maybe no. You have to look at the person maybe no. You have to look at the person and look at the situation. For most and look at the situation. For most and look at the situation. For most people, when people, when people, when when there's a difference between the when there's a difference between the when there's a difference between the two, it is not the person who say is two, it is not the person who say is two, it is not the person who say is externalizing all that stress, giving externalizing all that stress, giving externalizing all that stress, giving everybody stress, but they feel calm everybody stress, but they feel calm everybody stress, but they feel calm inside, right? That is not a healthy way inside, right? That is not a healthy way inside, right? That is not a healthy way to be and there's something going on to be and there's something going on to be and there's something going on there that's different, right? That That there that's different, right? That That there that's different, right? That That is That is an issue that warrants really is That is an issue that warrants really is That is an issue that warrants really looking at and address. There's a looking at and address. There's a looking at and address. There's a problem there. For most people, if it's problem there. For most people, if it's problem there. For most people, if it's different, it's the opposite where different, it's the opposite where different, it's the opposite where people are treating others much much people are treating others much much people are treating others much much better than they're treating themselves. better than they're treating themselves. better than they're treating themselves. And they may say, "Well, that's okay, And they may say, "Well, that's okay, And they may say, "Well, that's okay, you know, maybe we each made a mistake." you know, maybe we each made a mistake." you know, maybe we each made a mistake." And I get it. Everyone makes mistakes, And I get it. Everyone makes mistakes, And I get it. Everyone makes mistakes, right? I may say that to you, but then right? I may say that to you, but then right? I may say that to you, but then go, go, go, "What's wrong with me?" Or, you know, "What's wrong with me?" Or, you know, "What's wrong with me?" Or, you know, I'm I maybe act very differently inside. I'm I maybe act very differently inside. I'm I maybe act very differently inside. And that's mostly what good people do is And that's mostly what good people do is And that's mostly what good people do is we'll give other people a kind word or a we'll give other people a kind word or a we'll give other people a kind word or a benefit of the doubt, but we get very benefit of the doubt, but we get very benefit of the doubt, but we get very harsh in our in our language and our harsh in our in our language and our harsh in our in our language and our tone inside of ourselves can be can be tone inside of ourselves can be can be tone inside of ourselves can be can be very different. And you know, this idea very different. And you know, this idea very different. And you know, this idea of if you're if you're going to make of if you're if you're going to make of if you're if you're going to make yourself special, don't make yourself yourself special, don't make yourself yourself special, don't make yourself special in a negative way, right? I special in a negative way, right? I special in a negative way, right? I mean, it's a it's you know, it partly in mean, it's a it's you know, it partly in mean, it's a it's you know, it partly in jest, but it but it is saying for most jest, but it but it is saying for most jest, but it but it is saying for most of us who are making ourselves special, of us who are making ourselves special, of us who are making ourselves special, it is in a negative way. Other people it is in a negative way. Other people it is in a negative way. Other people can can you know, can get um they can can can you know, can get um they can can can you know, can get um they can get a pass about about something. They get a pass about about something. They get a pass about about something. They made an honest mistake or, you know, made an honest mistake or, you know, made an honest mistake or, you know, we'll give them another chance, whatever we'll give them another chance, whatever we'll give them another chance, whatever it may be. But, for us, we may use much it may be. But, for us, we may use much it may be. But, for us, we may use much harsher language, you know, "What's harsher language, you know, "What's harsher language, you know, "What's wrong with me? I'm an idiot. I messed wrong with me? I'm an idiot. I messed wrong with me? I'm an idiot. I messed that up again." And there's a lot of that up again." And there's a lot of that up again." And there's a lot of that going on inside of us. So, So, no, that going on inside of us. So, So, no, that going on inside of us. So, So, no, if we're if we're treating other people if we're if we're treating other people if we're if we're treating other people kindly, it may be that we're treating kindly, it may be that we're treating kindly, it may be that we're treating ourselves kindly inside, but but that is ourselves kindly inside, but but that is ourselves kindly inside, but but that is certainly not a given. And if we're certainly not a given. And if we're certainly not a given. And if we're being unkind to other people, that most being unkind to other people, that most being unkind to other people, that most of the time there is some real turmoil of the time there is some real turmoil of the time there is some real turmoil and and that person is not feeling okay and and that person is not feeling okay and and that person is not feeling okay inside. The person who's making other inside. The person who's making other inside. The person who's making other people unhappy and they themselves feel people unhappy and they themselves feel people unhappy and they themselves feel okay, that's a different kind of problem okay, that's a different kind of problem okay, that's a different kind of problem and it's not a common one. and it's not a common one. and it's not a common one. In your book, you talk about intrusive In your book, you talk about intrusive In your book, you talk about intrusive thoughts and things that people can do thoughts and things that people can do thoughts and things that people can do to deal with intrusive thoughts. If you to deal with intrusive thoughts. If you to deal with intrusive thoughts. If you wouldn't mind, could you give us a few wouldn't mind, could you give us a few wouldn't mind, could you give us a few um um um you know a few examples of things that you know a few examples of things that you know a few examples of things that people can do to deal with intrusive people can do to deal with intrusive people can do to deal with intrusive thoughts? Mhm. Mhm. thoughts? Mhm. Mhm. thoughts? Mhm. Mhm. Well, the first is we have to identify Well, the first is we have to identify Well, the first is we have to identify it. Then there are people who have it. Then there are people who have it. Then there are people who have intrusive thoughts, something they may intrusive thoughts, something they may intrusive thoughts, something they may say to themselves hundreds of times a say to themselves hundreds of times a say to themselves hundreds of times a day, and they're not aware of it. Until day, and they're not aware of it. Until day, and they're not aware of it. Until they stop and think, like what am I they stop and think, like what am I they stop and think, like what am I saying to myself over and over again? saying to myself over and over again? saying to myself over and over again? What's running around? Being aware of What's running around? Being aware of What's running around? Being aware of our self-talk, right? The idea that like our self-talk, right? The idea that like our self-talk, right? The idea that like we that like we're not going to we're we that like we're not going to we're we that like we're not going to we're not safe or worried about one's children not safe or worried about one's children not safe or worried about one's children and safety or worried about them I'm and safety or worried about them I'm and safety or worried about them I'm going to get fired or there's not going going to get fired or there's not going going to get fired or there's not going to be there's not going to be enough, to be there's not going to be enough, to be there's not going to be enough, you know, these things can come to us you know, these things can come to us you know, these things can come to us over and over again without us being over and over again without us being over and over again without us being aware of it. So the So the first thing aware of it. So the So the first thing aware of it. So the So the first thing is we must be aware. And it may sound is we must be aware. And it may sound is we must be aware. And it may sound strange to say we could say something to strange to say we could say something to strange to say we could say something to ourselves hundreds of times over and not ourselves hundreds of times over and not ourselves hundreds of times over and not be aware of it, but absolutely that be aware of it, but absolutely that be aware of it, but absolutely that happens. So So we have to be curious. happens. So So we have to be curious. happens. So So we have to be curious. Well, what is it that I'm saying to Well, what is it that I'm saying to Well, what is it that I'm saying to myself in these quiet moments? And then myself in these quiet moments? And then myself in these quiet moments? And then what purpose is it serving? So if if I what purpose is it serving? So if if I what purpose is it serving? So if if I keep telling myself that that nothing's keep telling myself that that nothing's keep telling myself that that nothing's going to be okay. Like why am I saying going to be okay. Like why am I saying going to be okay. Like why am I saying that? You know, am I so afraid that that? You know, am I so afraid that that? You know, am I so afraid that nothing's going to be okay that I'm nothing's going to be okay that I'm nothing's going to be okay that I'm trying to save myself from the shock of trying to save myself from the shock of trying to save myself from the shock of nothing being okay? Maybe, right? Maybe nothing being okay? Maybe, right? Maybe nothing being okay? Maybe, right? Maybe that's going on. Am I just so afraid that's going on. Am I just so afraid that's going on. Am I just so afraid about something? You know, something about something? You know, something about something? You know, something happened in the past, someone was hurt happened in the past, someone was hurt happened in the past, someone was hurt or there was a loss and and now the or there was a loss and and now the or there was a loss and and now the intrusive thoughts tell me that things intrusive thoughts tell me that things intrusive thoughts tell me that things can't be okay. But what it's telling me can't be okay. But what it's telling me can't be okay. But what it's telling me is I haven't processed that loss. Like is I haven't processed that loss. Like is I haven't processed that loss. Like there's there is is going to be a there's there is is going to be a there's there is is going to be a meaning. meaning. meaning. There is is a meaning to intrusive There is is a meaning to intrusive There is is a meaning to intrusive thoughts. There always is. So we want to thoughts. There always is. So we want to thoughts. There always is. So we want to recognize them. We want to look for that recognize them. We want to look for that recognize them. We want to look for that meaning. And then there's strategies of meaning. And then there's strategies of meaning. And then there's strategies of what we can do. And and they can range what we can do. And and they can range what we can do. And and they can range from thought redirection. Sometimes we from thought redirection. Sometimes we from thought redirection. Sometimes we think something because we're thinking think something because we're thinking think something because we're thinking it over and over again. And if we it over and over again. And if we it over and over again. And if we thought redirect, it gives us greater thought redirect, it gives us greater thought redirect, it gives us greater control. Sometimes we diffuse some of control. Sometimes we diffuse some of control. Sometimes we diffuse some of the energy in it by understanding, you the energy in it by understanding, you the energy in it by understanding, you know, why we're thinking that thing and know, why we're thinking that thing and know, why we're thinking that thing and maybe taking measures. If I'm worried maybe taking measures. If I'm worried maybe taking measures. If I'm worried that that like I'm not safe and things that that like I'm not safe and things that that like I'm not safe and things aren't going to be okay, maybe I'm aren't going to be okay, maybe I'm aren't going to be okay, maybe I'm letting myself be in an unsafe letting myself be in an unsafe letting myself be in an unsafe situation. Right? And I need to change situation. Right? And I need to change situation. Right? And I need to change that situation. This is a place that situation. This is a place that situation. This is a place sometimes medicines can help. So there sometimes medicines can help. So there sometimes medicines can help. So there there are there are a lot of things that there are there are a lot of things that there are there are a lot of things that we can bring to bear, but we first have we can bring to bear, but we first have we can bring to bear, but we first have to recognize that they're happening and to recognize that they're happening and to recognize that they're happening and then running countercurrent to modern then running countercurrent to modern then running countercurrent to modern mental health often is we have to mental health often is we have to mental health often is we have to actually understand why if if we want actually understand why if if we want actually understand why if if we want that to change for the better, if we that to change for the better, if we that to change for the better, if we want to really get you know, get into want to really get you know, get into want to really get you know, get into the engine and figure it out instead of the engine and figure it out instead of the engine and figure it out instead of just trying to polish the hood and you just trying to polish the hood and you just trying to polish the hood and you know, not look at where that problem is know, not look at where that problem is know, not look at where that problem is coming from. coming from. coming from. In keeping with commonly discussed In keeping with commonly discussed In keeping with commonly discussed themes out in the world that I question, themes out in the world that I question, themes out in the world that I question, are our dreams informative? are our dreams informative? are our dreams informative? And is there anything that we can know And is there anything that we can know And is there anything that we can know about ourselves like about ourselves like about ourselves like patterns of thinking when we're awake patterns of thinking when we're awake patterns of thinking when we're awake that make our dreams more informative? that make our dreams more informative? that make our dreams more informative? For example, if I tend to think in For example, if I tend to think in For example, if I tend to think in analogy or parallel construction, and analogy or parallel construction, and analogy or parallel construction, and will the content of my dreams be more will the content of my dreams be more will the content of my dreams be more meaningful to me to understand through meaningful to me to understand through meaningful to me to understand through the lens of analogy or parallel the lens of analogy or parallel the lens of analogy or parallel construction? I'm not sure about the construction? I'm not sure about the construction? I'm not sure about the last point. I I I don't know. You know, last point. I I I don't know. You know, last point. I I I don't know. You know, I just don't know and and my clinical I just don't know and and my clinical I just don't know and and my clinical experience has been people's dreams can experience has been people's dreams can experience has been people's dreams can have a lot of meaning, you know, have a lot of meaning, you know, have a lot of meaning, you know, regardless of what kind of thinker they regardless of what kind of thinker they regardless of what kind of thinker they are. So someone who might be for example are. So someone who might be for example are. So someone who might be for example a very concrete thinker may have dreams a very concrete thinker may have dreams a very concrete thinker may have dreams that are really telling us a lot because that are really telling us a lot because that are really telling us a lot because what the unconscious mind wants to bring what the unconscious mind wants to bring what the unconscious mind wants to bring to the surface doesn't have a lot of to the surface doesn't have a lot of to the surface doesn't have a lot of room to do that, right? Because that room to do that, right? Because that room to do that, right? Because that that person is you know, is thinking that person is you know, is thinking that person is you know, is thinking concretely and they're not thinking in concretely and they're not thinking in concretely and they're not thinking in in analogies or parallel processes and in analogies or parallel processes and in analogies or parallel processes and they're not opening up their mind that they're not opening up their mind that they're not opening up their mind that way. So the dream is expressing way. So the dream is expressing way. So the dream is expressing something there's no other way of something there's no other way of something there's no other way of getting to the surface. getting to the surface. getting to the surface. Um or it may be people who are very Um or it may be people who are very Um or it may be people who are very expressive and cultivate routes of expressive and cultivate routes of expressive and cultivate routes of expression you know, have informative expression you know, have informative expression you know, have informative dreams. I I I think the one the one dreams. I I I think the one the one dreams. I I I think the one the one factor is being curious about ourselves, factor is being curious about ourselves, factor is being curious about ourselves, right? Because then we tend to remember right? Because then we tend to remember right? Because then we tend to remember more what went on inside of us. You more what went on inside of us. You more what went on inside of us. You know, we tend to then either think know, we tend to then either think know, we tend to then either think through enough or write down and and through enough or write down and and through enough or write down and and become curious about ourselves. So I become curious about ourselves. So I become curious about ourselves. So I think being curious about what our think being curious about what our think being curious about what our brains are telling us during sleep can brains are telling us during sleep can brains are telling us during sleep can be very helpful. I haven't known of be very helpful. I haven't known of be very helpful. I haven't known of another quality characteristic of a another quality characteristic of a another quality characteristic of a person that really points strongly one person that really points strongly one person that really points strongly one way or another. And sometimes dreams way or another. And sometimes dreams way or another. And sometimes dreams don't have meaning or they don't have don't have meaning or they don't have don't have meaning or they don't have meaning we can we can clearly discern. meaning we can we can clearly discern. meaning we can we can clearly discern. So we have to be careful. We have to be So we have to be careful. We have to be So we have to be careful. We have to be respectful of how complex our minds are respectful of how complex our minds are respectful of how complex our minds are and and sometimes we're looking to read and and sometimes we're looking to read and and sometimes we're looking to read something in to a dream or you know, we something in to a dream or you know, we something in to a dream or you know, we want to see it as a marker along the want to see it as a marker along the want to see it as a marker along the path where you know, our thought is path where you know, our thought is path where you know, our thought is going. So So we have to be very careful going. So So we have to be very careful going. So So we have to be very careful and very sort of level-headed. But if we and very sort of level-headed. But if we and very sort of level-headed. But if we approach that way, it can be remarkable, approach that way, it can be remarkable, approach that way, it can be remarkable, amazing what dreams can can sometimes amazing what dreams can can sometimes amazing what dreams can can sometimes tell us and how and how something can tell us and how and how something can tell us and how and how something can come out allegorically in a person, you come out allegorically in a person, you come out allegorically in a person, you know, that is you know, speaking to um know, that is you know, speaking to um know, that is you know, speaking to um events that have unfolded across years, events that have unfolded across years, events that have unfolded across years, you know, in a large family system and you know, in a large family system and you know, in a large family system and and you find in a very simple way, an and you find in a very simple way, an and you find in a very simple way, an allegorical way, the brain is capturing allegorical way, the brain is capturing allegorical way, the brain is capturing that. So curiosity about ourselves and that. So curiosity about ourselves and that. So curiosity about ourselves and our dreams can really give us a lot of our dreams can really give us a lot of our dreams can really give us a lot of insight, but we have to be we have to be insight, but we have to be we have to be insight, but we have to be we have to be careful about it and be respectful of careful about it and be respectful of careful about it and be respectful of our own complexity. our own complexity. our own complexity. It's an unfortunate reality, but tap It's an unfortunate reality, but tap It's an unfortunate reality, but tap water often contains contaminants that water often contains contaminants that water often contains contaminants that negatively impact our health. In fact, a negatively impact our health. In fact, a negatively impact our health. In fact, a 2020 study by the Environmental Working 2020 study by the Environmental Working 2020 study by the Environmental Working Group estimated that more than 200 Group estimated that more than 200 Group estimated that more than 200 million Americans are exposed to PFAS million Americans are exposed to PFAS million Americans are exposed to PFAS chemicals, also known as forever chemicals, also known as forever chemicals, also known as forever chemicals, through drinking of tap chemicals, through drinking of tap chemicals, through drinking of tap water. These forever chemicals are water. These forever chemicals are water. These forever chemicals are linked to serious health issues such as linked to serious health issues such as linked to serious health issues such as hormone disruption, gut microbiome hormone disruption, gut microbiome hormone disruption, gut microbiome disruption, fertility issues, and many disruption, fertility issues, and many disruption, fertility issues, and many other health problems. The Environmental other health problems. The Environmental other health problems. The Environmental Working Group has also shown that over Working Group has also shown that over Working Group has also shown that over 122 million Americans drink tap water 122 million Americans drink tap water 122 million Americans drink tap water with high levels of chemicals known to with high levels of chemicals known to with high levels of chemicals known to cause cancer. It's for all these reasons cause cancer. It's for all these reasons cause cancer. 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Again, and get an exclusive discount. Again, that's Rora, r o r r a.com/huberman. that's Rora, r o r r a.com/huberman. that's Rora, r o r r a.com/huberman. In your previous book on trauma and in In your previous book on trauma and in In your previous book on trauma and in our previous discussions about trauma, our previous discussions about trauma, our previous discussions about trauma, uh you said that anxiety, trauma, stress uh you said that anxiety, trauma, stress uh you said that anxiety, trauma, stress doesn't know the clock or the calendar. doesn't know the clock or the calendar. doesn't know the clock or the calendar. Time is erased. Time is erased. Time is erased. The negative feelings that one feels in The negative feelings that one feels in The negative feelings that one feels in those states those states those states seems like it's going to go on forever, seems like it's going to go on forever, seems like it's going to go on forever, which is why it's so scary. Mhm. which is why it's so scary. Mhm. which is why it's so scary. Mhm. So So suggests that So So suggests that So So suggests that you know, the the way that we thread you know, the the way that we thread you know, the the way that we thread ourselves through our life is by kind of ourselves through our life is by kind of ourselves through our life is by kind of segmenting time. Like that was then, segmenting time. Like that was then, segmenting time. Like that was then, this is now. Right? That's a healthy this is now. Right? That's a healthy this is now. Right? That's a healthy version, you know, that the past doesn't version, you know, that the past doesn't version, you know, that the past doesn't necessarily dictate the present, the necessarily dictate the present, the necessarily dictate the present, the present doesn't necessarily dictate the present doesn't necessarily dictate the present doesn't necessarily dictate the future. future. future. But But But I think for many people the fear, the I think for many people the fear, the I think for many people the fear, the anxiety they feel uh for many people on anxiety they feel uh for many people on anxiety they feel uh for many people on a daily basis, a daily basis, a daily basis, it is so uncomfortable because we we it is so uncomfortable because we we it is so uncomfortable because we we just just just in those states we can't imagine feeling in those states we can't imagine feeling in those states we can't imagine feeling any differently, but we cognitively know any differently, but we cognitively know any differently, but we cognitively know that we Yeah, like this is just a state. that we Yeah, like this is just a state. that we Yeah, like this is just a state. It's just a like a a thing. It's just a like a a thing. It's just a like a a thing. What sorts of tools What sorts of tools What sorts of tools do you offer people to try and anchor do you offer people to try and anchor do you offer people to try and anchor themselves themselves themselves in those states? Should they just feel in those states? Should they just feel in those states? Should they just feel them? Perhaps. Just let them pass them? Perhaps. Just let them pass them? Perhaps. Just let them pass through. Or is it useful perhaps for through. Or is it useful perhaps for through. Or is it useful perhaps for them to anchor to some sort of them to anchor to some sort of them to anchor to some sort of thing outside the experience so that thing outside the experience so that thing outside the experience so that they they don't get carried by it. Like they they don't get carried by it. Like they they don't get carried by it. Like that's like get out of the stress. And that's like get out of the stress. And that's like get out of the stress. And And I think what I'm trying to do here And I think what I'm trying to do here And I think what I'm trying to do here is get to a fundamental question. Feel is get to a fundamental question. Feel is get to a fundamental question. Feel your feelings or be careful of feelings your feelings or be careful of feelings your feelings or be careful of feelings that that put you out of sense of time that that put you out of sense of time that that put you out of sense of time passage because those are tend to be passage because those are tend to be passage because those are tend to be dangerous feelings. It has to start with dangerous feelings. It has to start with dangerous feelings. It has to start with understanding. We have to be able to understanding. We have to be able to understanding. We have to be able to shine the light everywhere and look at shine the light everywhere and look at shine the light everywhere and look at what's true. So as I found myself saying what's true. So as I found myself saying what's true. So as I found myself saying many times, you know, you can say that many times, you know, you can say that many times, you know, you can say that was then, this is now, but your limbic was then, this is now, but your limbic was then, this is now, but your limbic system doesn't care. Right? And our system doesn't care. Right? And our system doesn't care. Right? And our limbic system is the emotion systems in limbic system is the emotion systems in limbic system is the emotion systems in us. So So we can say, well, well, the us. So So we can say, well, well, the us. So So we can say, well, well, the the past is in the past, right? So I'm the past is in the past, right? So I'm the past is in the past, right? So I'm going to I'm going to put it in the going to I'm going to put it in the going to I'm going to put it in the past. We can say that, but we're saying past. We can say that, but we're saying past. We can say that, but we're saying that through logical mechanisms in us. that through logical mechanisms in us. that through logical mechanisms in us. So if there's logical mechanisms and So if there's logical mechanisms and So if there's logical mechanisms and limbic or emotion mechanisms, it's a limbic or emotion mechanisms, it's a limbic or emotion mechanisms, it's a simplification, but you know, we can simplification, but you know, we can simplification, but you know, we can look at the brain that way and say, look at the brain that way and say, look at the brain that way and say, well, the logic mechanisms are telling well, the logic mechanisms are telling well, the logic mechanisms are telling me that and are declaring that it's true me that and are declaring that it's true me that and are declaring that it's true because the clock says that it's in the because the clock says that it's in the because the clock says that it's in the past. But the limbic, the emotion past. But the limbic, the emotion past. But the limbic, the emotion systems have a very different reality. systems have a very different reality. systems have a very different reality. It doesn't They don't see it that way. It doesn't They don't see it that way. It doesn't They don't see it that way. They don't know that there's a clock or They don't know that there's a clock or They don't know that there's a clock or the calendar. So So it's not that that the calendar. So So it's not that that the calendar. So So it's not that that was then, this is now. A trigger in the was then, this is now. A trigger in the was then, this is now. A trigger in the now can make then now. now can make then now. now can make then now. So we want to be aware of the emotions So we want to be aware of the emotions So we want to be aware of the emotions that are going on inside of us and the that are going on inside of us and the that are going on inside of us and the strong emotional states that we can get strong emotional states that we can get strong emotional states that we can get into. Right? Because they're telling us into. Right? Because they're telling us into. Right? Because they're telling us something. You know, if something something. You know, if something something. You know, if something happens just in in going through life happens just in in going through life happens just in in going through life and something that might even seem small and something that might even seem small and something that might even seem small from the outside, but I'm triggered or from the outside, but I'm triggered or from the outside, but I'm triggered or I'm cued in a way to be in a very deep I'm cued in a way to be in a very deep I'm cued in a way to be in a very deep emotional state of of fear or emotional state of of fear or emotional state of of fear or vulnerability like and I can map that to vulnerability like and I can map that to vulnerability like and I can map that to like I felt, you know, when X happened like I felt, you know, when X happened like I felt, you know, when X happened or like I felt or like I felt or like I felt 20 years ago when this happened, right? 20 years ago when this happened, right? 20 years ago when this happened, right? That's telling me something. Right? It's That's telling me something. Right? It's That's telling me something. Right? It's telling me time is not like a steel rod telling me time is not like a steel rod telling me time is not like a steel rod going, you know, in one direction. going, you know, in one direction. going, you know, in one direction. That's the logic systems. In the limbic That's the logic systems. In the limbic That's the logic systems. In the limbic systems, it's like a string, right? And systems, it's like a string, right? And systems, it's like a string, right? And something just made me feel right now something just made me feel right now something just made me feel right now exactly the way it took the string from exactly the way it took the string from exactly the way it took the string from now to this thing that happened say 10 now to this thing that happened say 10 now to this thing that happened say 10 years ago and it put the two parts of years ago and it put the two parts of years ago and it put the two parts of the string together. That's real for me the string together. That's real for me the string together. That's real for me and it's telling me there is emotion in and it's telling me there is emotion in and it's telling me there is emotion in something from that time that I have not something from that time that I have not something from that time that I have not worked through. Right? It was Was I worked through. Right? It was Was I worked through. Right? It was Was I aware of that? Am I kind of aware of it, aware of that? Am I kind of aware of it, aware of that? Am I kind of aware of it, but I'm pushing it down under the but I'm pushing it down under the but I'm pushing it down under the surface? If If I'm having strong surface? If If I'm having strong surface? If If I'm having strong emotions where I'm I'm lost in the past emotions where I'm I'm lost in the past emotions where I'm I'm lost in the past while in the present, it's a marker of while in the present, it's a marker of while in the present, it's a marker of something. And And very often we get something. And And very often we get something. And And very often we get afraid of that. We turn away from it. afraid of that. We turn away from it. afraid of that. We turn away from it. We're worried that that it's telling us We're worried that that it's telling us We're worried that that it's telling us we're not healthy or we're worried we're we're not healthy or we're worried we're we're not healthy or we're worried we're going to go crazy. Like these are the going to go crazy. Like these are the going to go crazy. Like these are the things that people say, right? When this things that people say, right? When this things that people say, right? When this happens. And so for us to know like, happens. And so for us to know like, happens. And so for us to know like, well, that is not what's happening. This well, that is not what's happening. This well, that is not what's happening. This is normal and and human, right? That is normal and and human, right? That is normal and and human, right? That this is what will happen, these these this is what will happen, these these this is what will happen, these these emotion systems that that pay very emotion systems that that pay very emotion systems that that pay very strong attention, right, to negative strong attention, right, to negative strong attention, right, to negative things, to to to negative emotions, you things, to to to negative emotions, you things, to to to negative emotions, you know, fear and loss and terror and know, fear and loss and terror and know, fear and loss and terror and despair inside of us. They don't know despair inside of us. They don't know despair inside of us. They don't know the clock or the calendar, so they're the clock or the calendar, so they're the clock or the calendar, so they're going to bring to our present, right, going to bring to our present, right, going to bring to our present, right, things from our past that that are then things from our past that that are then things from our past that that are then markers of saying, "Go dig there because markers of saying, "Go dig there because markers of saying, "Go dig there because that is not just in the past. that is not just in the past. that is not just in the past. Emotionally, it is still in your Emotionally, it is still in your Emotionally, it is still in your present." present." present." At this point in time, what what do you At this point in time, what what do you At this point in time, what what do you think is the most efficient way to root think is the most efficient way to root think is the most efficient way to root out and heal childhood traumas? out and heal childhood traumas? out and heal childhood traumas? Bringing compassionate curiosity to Bringing compassionate curiosity to Bringing compassionate curiosity to ourselves, where we just look at our ourselves, where we just look at our ourselves, where we just look at our past and we look at it without sort of past and we look at it without sort of past and we look at it without sort of having a dog in the fight, so to speak, having a dog in the fight, so to speak, having a dog in the fight, so to speak, where like, "I don't I don't have to see where like, "I don't I don't have to see where like, "I don't I don't have to see it a certain way." Right? "I don't have it a certain way." Right? "I don't have it a certain way." Right? "I don't have to look at this." And sometimes people to look at this." And sometimes people to look at this." And sometimes people will say, "I They will have to make it will say, "I They will have to make it will say, "I They will have to make it less bad than it was because they they less bad than it was because they they less bad than it was because they they feel otherwise they won't be okay if feel otherwise they won't be okay if feel otherwise they won't be okay if they see all that was bad in it." You they see all that was bad in it." You they see all that was bad in it." You know, others might feel they have to know, others might feel they have to know, others might feel they have to look at the worst of it because they're look at the worst of it because they're look at the worst of it because they're they're they're trying to anchor to they're they're trying to anchor to they're they're trying to anchor to things in their in their life now that things in their in their life now that things in their in their life now that they're not happy with and why that they're not happy with and why that they're not happy with and why that might be, right? So, what it ends up might be, right? So, what it ends up might be, right? So, what it ends up doing is it brings so much emotion into doing is it brings so much emotion into doing is it brings so much emotion into it that we can't look in a way that has it that we can't look in a way that has it that we can't look in a way that has equanimity, right? Because we're we're equanimity, right? Because we're we're equanimity, right? Because we're we're living in the emotion. Now, we can't living in the emotion. Now, we can't living in the emotion. Now, we can't feel no emotion if we're thinking about feel no emotion if we're thinking about feel no emotion if we're thinking about difficult things that have happened to difficult things that have happened to difficult things that have happened to us, but to be able to have that us, but to be able to have that us, but to be able to have that observation of self of like, "What is observation of self of like, "What is observation of self of like, "What is going on inside of me? What do I feel going on inside of me? What do I feel going on inside of me? What do I feel about it? Where does my own mind want to about it? Where does my own mind want to about it? Where does my own mind want to go? Do I want to minimize it? Do I want go? Do I want to minimize it? Do I want go? Do I want to minimize it? Do I want to take it and dial it up so that it'll to take it and dial it up so that it'll to take it and dial it up so that it'll explain why I did X or why I didn't do explain why I did X or why I didn't do explain why I did X or why I didn't do Y, right?" So, we're we're we're trying Y, right?" So, we're we're we're trying Y, right?" So, we're we're we're trying to observe our own motivations as we to observe our own motivations as we to observe our own motivations as we look at our childhood. And and if we can look at our childhood. And and if we can look at our childhood. And and if we can gain more equanimity that way, then we gain more equanimity that way, then we gain more equanimity that way, then we can come to understanding that this idea can come to understanding that this idea can come to understanding that this idea that we don't have to be afraid to go that we don't have to be afraid to go that we don't have to be afraid to go and do that. And to say, "Okay, I can and do that. And to say, "Okay, I can and do that. And to say, "Okay, I can look at this and I see this part of my look at this and I see this part of my look at this and I see this part of my childhood or this person in my childhood childhood or this person in my childhood childhood or this person in my childhood like that that wasn't good or wasn't like that that wasn't good or wasn't like that that wasn't good or wasn't okay or maybe it was even abusive, it okay or maybe it was even abusive, it okay or maybe it was even abusive, it was wrong." Right? We can look at that was wrong." Right? We can look at that was wrong." Right? We can look at that and say, "Okay, what what what am I and say, "Okay, what what what am I and say, "Okay, what what what am I going to do with that?" Now, it doesn't going to do with that?" Now, it doesn't going to do with that?" Now, it doesn't define who I am, it doesn't determine define who I am, it doesn't determine define who I am, it doesn't determine any one single thing about me. Right? If any one single thing about me. Right? If any one single thing about me. Right? If I can look at it with a calmness of mind I can look at it with a calmness of mind I can look at it with a calmness of mind and I can see the realness of how it's and I can see the realness of how it's and I can see the realness of how it's affected me. Right now, I I start affected me. Right now, I I start affected me. Right now, I I start talking about malleability, kind of talking about malleability, kind of talking about malleability, kind of where we started with with malleability where we started with with malleability where we started with with malleability of of ourselves and how we see of of ourselves and how we see of of ourselves and how we see ourselves, then I can start to make ourselves, then I can start to make ourselves, then I can start to make progress. But, we have to be able to progress. But, we have to be able to progress. But, we have to be able to look at ourselves and very often we just look at ourselves and very often we just look at ourselves and very often we just don't want to do that because we don't don't want to do that because we don't don't want to do that because we don't bring compassion, you know, we bring bring compassion, you know, we bring bring compassion, you know, we bring fear and criticism, right? But, if we fear and criticism, right? But, if we fear and criticism, right? But, if we can just observe ourselves, now we can can just observe ourselves, now we can can just observe ourselves, now we can get in touch with what what did happen get in touch with what what did happen get in touch with what what did happen in childhood. What am I making of that in childhood. What am I making of that in childhood. What am I making of that now, right? And then now maybe I might now, right? And then now maybe I might now, right? And then now maybe I might want to put those words outside of me in want to put those words outside of me in want to put those words outside of me in writing or in speech or I might want to writing or in speech or I might want to writing or in speech or I might want to talk to a a trusted other or I might talk to a a trusted other or I might talk to a a trusted other or I might want to see a therapist about it. So, it want to see a therapist about it. So, it want to see a therapist about it. So, it it's taking the strong emotion that can it's taking the strong emotion that can it's taking the strong emotion that can keep us from understanding, right? Which keep us from understanding, right? Which keep us from understanding, right? Which can get very complicated, right? If if can get very complicated, right? If if can get very complicated, right? If if we bring fear to our past, we're going we bring fear to our past, we're going we bring fear to our past, we're going to see it through the lens of fear. If I to see it through the lens of fear. If I to see it through the lens of fear. If I know I can look at my past and I don't know I can look at my past and I don't know I can look at my past and I don't have to be afraid even if it raises have to be afraid even if it raises have to be afraid even if it raises difficult emotion in me, I'm much more difficult emotion in me, I'm much more difficult emotion in me, I'm much more likely to keep a calm presence of mind likely to keep a calm presence of mind likely to keep a calm presence of mind and then to learn some things about and then to learn some things about and then to learn some things about myself. myself. myself. Do you think that people look back and Do you think that people look back and Do you think that people look back and think about good things that happened to think about good things that happened to think about good things that happened to them often enough? them often enough? them often enough? No. No. No. I mean, it is a clear no. Not often I mean, it is a clear no. Not often I mean, it is a clear no. Not often enough the answer then is no. We tend to enough the answer then is no. We tend to enough the answer then is no. We tend to have a bias in us towards the negative have a bias in us towards the negative have a bias in us towards the negative and we don't stop and think, "Hey, you and we don't stop and think, "Hey, you and we don't stop and think, "Hey, you know, I did that really well." Or, "You know, I did that really well." Or, "You know, I did that really well." Or, "You know, that didn't come out the way I know, that didn't come out the way I know, that didn't come out the way I wanted it to, but I learned from it." wanted it to, but I learned from it." wanted it to, but I learned from it." Or, "I didn't come out the way I wanted Or, "I didn't come out the way I wanted Or, "I didn't come out the way I wanted to, but I really tried." And we tend not to, but I really tried." And we tend not to, but I really tried." And we tend not to do that and this bias towards the to do that and this bias towards the to do that and this bias towards the negative means we we then start making negative means we we then start making negative means we we then start making the stories of ourselves about the the stories of ourselves about the the stories of ourselves about the negative. Or we feel like, "Well, if I negative. Or we feel like, "Well, if I negative. Or we feel like, "Well, if I look at what I've done right, you know, look at what I've done right, you know, look at what I've done right, you know, what's gone right in my life or what is what's gone right in my life or what is what's gone right in my life or what is going right, then I'll get complacent." going right, then I'll get complacent." going right, then I'll get complacent." Or like, "What is there to be gained Or like, "What is there to be gained Or like, "What is there to be gained from that? I'm going to look at what's from that? I'm going to look at what's from that? I'm going to look at what's not the way I want it to be." And really not the way I want it to be." And really not the way I want it to be." And really quite the opposite is true, right? If quite the opposite is true, right? If quite the opposite is true, right? If we're looking at what's gone well in our we're looking at what's gone well in our we're looking at what's gone well in our life, at our successes and even things life, at our successes and even things life, at our successes and even things that weren't successes maybe from the that weren't successes maybe from the that weren't successes maybe from the outside, but hey, I I I grew, I learned outside, but hey, I I I grew, I learned outside, but hey, I I I grew, I learned something, the school of hard knocks something, the school of hard knocks something, the school of hard knocks taught me something, you know, then then taught me something, you know, then then taught me something, you know, then then we are bolstering ourselves, we're we are bolstering ourselves, we're we are bolstering ourselves, we're empowering ourselves by doing that. So, empowering ourselves by doing that. So, empowering ourselves by doing that. So, no, we we should all do a lot more of no, we we should all do a lot more of no, we we should all do a lot more of that and we wouldn't become complacent, that and we wouldn't become complacent, that and we wouldn't become complacent, right? We we would become happier, right? We we would become happier, right? We we would become happier, healthier, more effective in our lives. healthier, more effective in our lives. healthier, more effective in our lives. I think when we talk about looking I think when we talk about looking I think when we talk about looking backward, um most of us including myself backward, um most of us including myself backward, um most of us including myself just kind of just kind of just kind of reflexively go to, "Okay, my family reflexively go to, "Okay, my family reflexively go to, "Okay, my family growing up or elementary school, middle growing up or elementary school, middle growing up or elementary school, middle school, high school." So on. school, high school." So on. school, high school." So on. I have a colleague from the past that I have a colleague from the past that I have a colleague from the past that Larry Squire is a kind of a luminary in Larry Squire is a kind of a luminary in Larry Squire is a kind of a luminary in the the field of of memory and it worked the the field of of memory and it worked the the field of of memory and it worked out a lot of stuff about human out a lot of stuff about human out a lot of stuff about human hippocampus and um when I was visiting hippocampus and um when I was visiting hippocampus and um when I was visiting UC San Diego some years ago, um there UC San Diego some years ago, um there UC San Diego some years ago, um there were a bunch of photos were a bunch of photos were a bunch of photos on his office wall. on his office wall. on his office wall. I was like, "Oh, cool." Like I was I was like, "Oh, cool." Like I was I was like, "Oh, cool." Like I was looking at from meetings and things. I looking at from meetings and things. I looking at from meetings and things. I figured if they're on his wall, I'm figured if they're on his wall, I'm figured if they're on his wall, I'm allowed to look at them. So, I like allowed to look at them. So, I like allowed to look at them. So, I like probing around. Oh, there's so-and-so. probing around. Oh, there's so-and-so. probing around. Oh, there's so-and-so. And he said, "You know, having And he said, "You know, having And he said, "You know, having photographs on your wall of times that photographs on your wall of times that photographs on your wall of times that were really good is is very good for were really good is is very good for were really good is is very good for your for your adult memory and it cues your for your adult memory and it cues your for your adult memory and it cues up emotional states for you." up emotional states for you." up emotional states for you." And this is where it got interesting cuz And this is where it got interesting cuz And this is where it got interesting cuz he studied explicit and implicit memory. he studied explicit and implicit memory. he studied explicit and implicit memory. The ones that we're aware of versus the The ones that we're aware of versus the The ones that we're aware of versus the ones we're not aware of just to be to be ones we're not aware of just to be to be ones we're not aware of just to be to be clear to people. clear to people. clear to people. And he said, "Even if you don't look at And he said, "Even if you don't look at And he said, "Even if you don't look at them them them deliberately each day when walking past deliberately each day when walking past deliberately each day when walking past them, if you have some, them, if you have some, them, if you have some, you know, implicit understanding about you know, implicit understanding about you know, implicit understanding about what those are, what those are, what those are, you're surrounding yourself with you're surrounding yourself with you're surrounding yourself with positive memories." Yes. And I thought, positive memories." Yes. And I thought, positive memories." Yes. And I thought, "That's pretty cool." And he's not just "That's pretty cool." And he's not just "That's pretty cool." And he's not just somebody saying this, right? This wasn't somebody saying this, right? This wasn't somebody saying this, right? This wasn't some some some Right. you know, just thing thrown out Right. you know, just thing thrown out Right. you know, just thing thrown out into the world. This is arguably one of into the world. This is arguably one of into the world. This is arguably one of the people who knows more about human the people who knows more about human the people who knows more about human memory structure function than anybody memory structure function than anybody memory structure function than anybody in the past 200 years or so. in the past 200 years or so. in the past 200 years or so. Uh that's cool. And I so I said, you Uh that's cool. And I so I said, you Uh that's cool. And I so I said, you know, "So, should be party? Should be know, "So, should be party? Should be know, "So, should be party? Should be the" And he just said, "Just things and the" And he just said, "Just things and the" And he just said, "Just things and people and experiences that you liked." people and experiences that you liked." people and experiences that you liked." Mhm. You just put them up. Mhm. You just put them up. Mhm. You just put them up. And I said, "Do you find yourself And I said, "Do you find yourself And I said, "Do you find yourself looking at them on your wall?" And he looking at them on your wall?" And he looking at them on your wall?" And he goes, "Yeah, from time to time, but he's goes, "Yeah, from time to time, but he's goes, "Yeah, from time to time, but he's like, I'm basically in a vessel of like, I'm basically in a vessel of like, I'm basically in a vessel of awesome memories and awesome memories and awesome memories and doesn't, you know, solve all my doesn't, you know, solve all my doesn't, you know, solve all my problems, but but why wouldn't you?" And problems, but but why wouldn't you?" And problems, but but why wouldn't you?" And I I think that's such a cool idea. Um I I think that's such a cool idea. Um I I think that's such a cool idea. Um and uh these days we spend a lot of time and uh these days we spend a lot of time and uh these days we spend a lot of time looking at other people's experiences, a looking at other people's experiences, a looking at other people's experiences, a lot of news coming in and things like lot of news coming in and things like lot of news coming in and things like that. I wonder if we're just doing a lot that. I wonder if we're just doing a lot that. I wonder if we're just doing a lot less of this. And as a last point, I've less of this. And as a last point, I've less of this. And as a last point, I've always always always um um um liked, I mean, who knows what's really liked, I mean, who knows what's really liked, I mean, who knows what's really going on behind the scenes, but I've going on behind the scenes, but I've going on behind the scenes, but I've always like you go into somebody's home always like you go into somebody's home always like you go into somebody's home and they you walk down a stairwell or up and they you walk down a stairwell or up and they you walk down a stairwell or up a stairwell sometimes and they've just a stairwell sometimes and they've just a stairwell sometimes and they've just got the wall littered with all these got the wall littered with all these got the wall littered with all these photos. Not necessarily big family, photos. Not necessarily big family, photos. Not necessarily big family, sometimes yes, sometimes no. And you're sometimes yes, sometimes no. And you're sometimes yes, sometimes no. And you're like, "Wow, like they're like posting like, "Wow, like they're like posting like, "Wow, like they're like posting all their experiences." And I I think all their experiences." And I I think all their experiences." And I I think it's kind of cool. I I don't tend to do it's kind of cool. I I don't tend to do it's kind of cool. I I don't tend to do it. it. it. Um Um Um but this is a version of thinking about but this is a version of thinking about but this is a version of thinking about and exposing oneself, kind of basking in and exposing oneself, kind of basking in and exposing oneself, kind of basking in the past in a positive way. I think it's the past in a positive way. I think it's the past in a positive way. I think it's kind of kind of cool. Maybe we should do kind of kind of cool. Maybe we should do kind of kind of cool. Maybe we should do more of it. Absolutely. I think what more of it. Absolutely. I think what more of it. Absolutely. I think what he's talking about and what you're he's talking about and what you're he's talking about and what you're talking about here is actually being talking about here is actually being talking about here is actually being able to have control over the climate able to have control over the climate able to have control over the climate within us, right? The the structure of within us, right? The the structure of within us, right? The the structure of self, which is foundational, has at its self, which is foundational, has at its self, which is foundational, has at its foundation our unconscious mind. And the foundation our unconscious mind. And the foundation our unconscious mind. And the unconscious mind sets parameters for us. unconscious mind sets parameters for us. unconscious mind sets parameters for us. It's kind of the climate in which we're It's kind of the climate in which we're It's kind of the climate in which we're living. And if that climate is being living. And if that climate is being living. And if that climate is being predisposed, it's programmed, right, to predisposed, it's programmed, right, to predisposed, it's programmed, right, to to have a bias towards the negative to have a bias towards the negative to have a bias towards the negative because we're thinking negative thoughts because we're thinking negative thoughts because we're thinking negative thoughts a lot of the time. We're thinking about a lot of the time. We're thinking about a lot of the time. We're thinking about what we did wrong or what we should have what we did wrong or what we should have what we did wrong or what we should have done differently or what's going to go done differently or what's going to go done differently or what's going to go wrong, then we're biasing the wrong, then we're biasing the wrong, then we're biasing the unconscious mind to throw to the surface unconscious mind to throw to the surface unconscious mind to throw to the surface the negative answer. We should Am I the negative answer. We should Am I the negative answer. We should Am I going to be able to do that? No. Right? going to be able to do that? No. Right? going to be able to do that? No. Right? We're biased towards the negative. Now, We're biased towards the negative. Now, We're biased towards the negative. Now, we don't know why. Why did I say no we don't know why. Why did I say no we don't know why. Why did I say no instead of yes? Right? That arises from instead of yes? Right? That arises from instead of yes? Right? That arises from the climate inside of me, which is my the climate inside of me, which is my the climate inside of me, which is my unconscious mind. So, he's saying, "Hey, unconscious mind. So, he's saying, "Hey, unconscious mind. So, he's saying, "Hey, you can sort of pre-program a bias into you can sort of pre-program a bias into you can sort of pre-program a bias into you towards the positive." And it's not you towards the positive." And it's not you towards the positive." And it's not a false bias. Those memories that are up a false bias. Those memories that are up a false bias. Those memories that are up on his wall are real, right? And whether on his wall are real, right? And whether on his wall are real, right? And whether he's looking at them or he's just kind he's looking at them or he's just kind he's looking at them or he's just kind of glancing and he walks by and there's of glancing and he walks by and there's of glancing and he walks by and there's a registration inside, you know, that he a registration inside, you know, that he a registration inside, you know, that he that he's not even aware of, right? He's that he's not even aware of, right? He's that he's not even aware of, right? He's he is priming the unconscious mind to to he is priming the unconscious mind to to he is priming the unconscious mind to to see the positive side of things. If he see the positive side of things. If he see the positive side of things. If he thinks, "Well, can I do that?" Or, "Yes, thinks, "Well, can I do that?" Or, "Yes, thinks, "Well, can I do that?" Or, "Yes, I I I can, right?" It it changes things I I I can, right?" It it changes things I I I can, right?" It it changes things inside of him and he's then able to inside of him and he's then able to inside of him and he's then able to exercise control over his own climate. exercise control over his own climate. exercise control over his own climate. And we can do that, too. And often what And we can do that, too. And often what And we can do that, too. And often what we're inadvertently doing is creating a we're inadvertently doing is creating a we're inadvertently doing is creating a climate of fear and a a climate that climate of fear and a a climate that climate of fear and a a climate that that is that lacks confidence, right, that is that lacks confidence, right, that is that lacks confidence, right, inside of us because we're just looking inside of us because we're just looking inside of us because we're just looking at the negative all the time, whether at the negative all the time, whether at the negative all the time, whether it's about us or the world around us. it's about us or the world around us. it's about us or the world around us. And that's the reason why the the title And that's the reason why the the title And that's the reason why the the title of that book is what's going right cuz of that book is what's going right cuz of that book is what's going right cuz there's way more going right in all of there's way more going right in all of there's way more going right in all of us than there is going wrong or we us than there is going wrong or we us than there is going wrong or we wouldn't be here. So, why not prime wouldn't be here. So, why not prime wouldn't be here. So, why not prime ourselves with that the way that he was ourselves with that the way that he was ourselves with that the way that he was doing with the photographs on the wall? doing with the photographs on the wall? doing with the photographs on the wall? It absolutely makes sense and it's not a It absolutely makes sense and it's not a It absolutely makes sense and it's not a Pollyanna concept. It's not saying, Pollyanna concept. It's not saying, Pollyanna concept. It's not saying, "Well, just look at what's going right." "Well, just look at what's going right." "Well, just look at what's going right." It's saying, "No, this is consistent It's saying, "No, this is consistent It's saying, "No, this is consistent with what's real and true and it's good with what's real and true and it's good with what's real and true and it's good for you, too. It helps you be effective for you, too. It helps you be effective for you, too. It helps you be effective in the world. It helps your mental in the world. It helps your mental in the world. It helps your mental health. Helping your mental health helps health. Helping your mental health helps health. Helping your mental health helps your physical health. It everything your physical health. It everything your physical health. It everything about this aligns with truth and it sets about this aligns with truth and it sets about this aligns with truth and it sets us up to be in better control of our us up to be in better control of our us up to be in better control of our lives and to be on the front foot as lives and to be on the front foot as lives and to be on the front foot as we're approaching life. we're approaching life. we're approaching life. I'm going to start printing out some I'm going to start printing out some I'm going to start printing out some photos and posting them cuz I don't do photos and posting them cuz I don't do photos and posting them cuz I don't do enough of that because of all the online enough of that because of all the online enough of that because of all the online stuff. I just I have photos, but stuff. I just I have photos, but stuff. I just I have photos, but I just feel like that's just remember I just feel like that's just remember I just feel like that's just remember this Larry Squire thing now as we were this Larry Squire thing now as we were this Larry Squire thing now as we were talking about this, but I'm definitely talking about this, but I'm definitely talking about this, but I'm definitely going to do that. going to do that. going to do that. >> Yeah, I'm going to do more of it, too. >> Yeah, I'm going to do more of it, too. >> Yeah, I'm going to do more of it, too. It's a good reminder to do that. It's a good reminder to do that. It's a good reminder to do that. >> Yeah, our physical spaces >> Yeah, our physical spaces >> Yeah, our physical spaces you know, to you know, to you know, to impact us so much and um impact us so much and um impact us so much and um yeah, there are a lot of a lot of good yeah, there are a lot of a lot of good yeah, there are a lot of a lot of good memories and some hard ones, too, but memories and some hard ones, too, but memories and some hard ones, too, but I'll put up the good memories, you know, I'll put up the good memories, you know, I'll put up the good memories, you know, that that that uh it makes perfect sense to me why one uh it makes perfect sense to me why one uh it makes perfect sense to me why one would want to do that. would want to do that. would want to do that. Earlier we were talking about the sense Earlier we were talking about the sense Earlier we were talking about the sense of of of internal control that we feel, the sense internal control that we feel, the sense internal control that we feel, the sense of being on one's own side when we're of being on one's own side when we're of being on one's own side when we're pushing off against something. pushing off against something. pushing off against something. And I have to ask, I I'm fascinated by And I have to ask, I I'm fascinated by And I have to ask, I I'm fascinated by scripture and by spirituality and scripture and by spirituality and scripture and by spirituality and notions of God and devil. notions of God and devil. notions of God and devil. I mean I mean I mean if people are told I'm not telling if people are told I'm not telling if people are told I'm not telling people what to believe, but we are we people what to believe, but we are we people what to believe, but we are we are told many people are told that there are told many people are told that there are told many people are told that there are evil forces out there or perhaps are evil forces out there or perhaps are evil forces out there or perhaps even in us and there are positive forces even in us and there are positive forces even in us and there are positive forces out there and in us. Typically this is out there and in us. Typically this is out there and in us. Typically this is presented as God and devil. Just for presented as God and devil. Just for presented as God and devil. Just for sake of conversation we'll stay with sake of conversation we'll stay with sake of conversation we'll stay with that. that. that. Do you think that it helps people choose Do you think that it helps people choose Do you think that it helps people choose better behaviors better behaviors better behaviors by by by being told and believing that there's a being told and believing that there's a being told and believing that there's a devil out there or inside of them to devil out there or inside of them to devil out there or inside of them to push against and therefore to be more on push against and therefore to be more on push against and therefore to be more on their own side? And of course if it's their own side? And of course if it's their own side? And of course if it's internal it's internal it's internal it's it's a an aspect of it's a an aspect of it's a an aspect of their own side that is better than the their own side that is better than the their own side that is better than the bad decision-maker in them. Right? So bad decision-maker in them. Right? So bad decision-maker in them. Right? So the the way I'm wording it is a little the the way I'm wording it is a little the the way I'm wording it is a little complicated, but I can't think of a complicated, but I can't think of a complicated, but I can't think of a simpler way to get there. simpler way to get there. simpler way to get there. If so this seems like a brilliant If so this seems like a brilliant If so this seems like a brilliant idea, right? If it's true or not it's idea, right? If it's true or not it's idea, right? If it's true or not it's not up to me to tell people, but one has not up to me to tell people, but one has not up to me to tell people, but one has to choose for themselves, but to choose for themselves, but to choose for themselves, but if the best way to if the best way to if the best way to to change one's behavior to change one's behavior to change one's behavior is to be on one's own side and the best is to be on one's own side and the best is to be on one's own side and the best way to be on one's own side is to not be way to be on one's own side is to not be way to be on one's own side is to not be controlled by something else and to controlled by something else and to controlled by something else and to actively be resisting that actively be resisting that actively be resisting that seems like this God-devil thing is seems like this God-devil thing is seems like this God-devil thing is pretty rational. I think maybe from the pretty rational. I think maybe from the pretty rational. I think maybe from the psychological perspective yes and no. I psychological perspective yes and no. I psychological perspective yes and no. I think if we get too over reductionist, think if we get too over reductionist, think if we get too over reductionist, you know, there's a single force of good you know, there's a single force of good you know, there's a single force of good and there's a single force of evil. I and there's a single force of evil. I and there's a single force of evil. I think our major religious think our major religious think our major religious tenets I think do see tenets I think do see tenets I think do see the world we live in is more complicated the world we live in is more complicated the world we live in is more complicated than that. That that that there is more than that. That that that there is more than that. That that that there is more than just a single force of good and a than just a single force of good and a than just a single force of good and a single force of evil because then I single force of evil because then I single force of evil because then I think what we tend to do is over think what we tend to do is over think what we tend to do is over identify. Either I want to be the good identify. Either I want to be the good identify. Either I want to be the good force, but I can't be good enough and force, but I can't be good enough and force, but I can't be good enough and I've done something wrong and and now I I've done something wrong and and now I I've done something wrong and and now I feel that I feel bad about myself feel that I feel bad about myself feel that I feel bad about myself because I now I feel evil because I because I now I feel evil because I because I now I feel evil because I don't feel good enough or I feel that don't feel good enough or I feel that don't feel good enough or I feel that the evil in the world is clearly coming the evil in the world is clearly coming the evil in the world is clearly coming for me and it's directed for me. It's a for me and it's directed for me. It's a for me and it's directed for me. It's a force directed at me. We can tend to force directed at me. We can tend to force directed at me. We can tend to personify then good and evil and and personify then good and evil and and personify then good and evil and and either over identify or either over identify or either over identify or feel that we are beleaguered, right? So feel that we are beleaguered, right? So feel that we are beleaguered, right? So if we over identify that we want to be if we over identify that we want to be if we over identify that we want to be good and we do something wrong we feel good and we do something wrong we feel good and we do something wrong we feel bad, right? That that that there can be bad, right? That that that there can be bad, right? That that that there can be a push towards self-persecuting or a push towards self-persecuting or a push towards self-persecuting or really not understanding ourselves if we really not understanding ourselves if we really not understanding ourselves if we over simplify. If we think in a broader over simplify. If we think in a broader over simplify. If we think in a broader way which I do think is consistent with way which I do think is consistent with way which I do think is consistent with with spirituality and I think it's with spirituality and I think it's with spirituality and I think it's consistent with the spirituality of consistent with the spirituality of consistent with the spirituality of major traditions and we see there are major traditions and we see there are major traditions and we see there are forces for good. There are pushes forces for good. There are pushes forces for good. There are pushes towards good in the universe around us towards good in the universe around us towards good in the universe around us and that includes within us and there and that includes within us and there and that includes within us and there are forces towards what is not good. are forces towards what is not good. are forces towards what is not good. Towards looking the other way for Towards looking the other way for Towards looking the other way for example from someone's needs, right? Not example from someone's needs, right? Not example from someone's needs, right? Not something that's pure evil. Like most of something that's pure evil. Like most of something that's pure evil. Like most of us aren't going to step on someone when us aren't going to step on someone when us aren't going to step on someone when they're down, but could we be tempted to they're down, but could we be tempted to they're down, but could we be tempted to look the other way, right? If we see look the other way, right? If we see look the other way, right? If we see there's a lot of subtlety and nuance to there's a lot of subtlety and nuance to there's a lot of subtlety and nuance to to how good and evil plays out in the to how good and evil plays out in the to how good and evil plays out in the world around us and inside of ourselves, world around us and inside of ourselves, world around us and inside of ourselves, then I think we're viewing ourselves and then I think we're viewing ourselves and then I think we're viewing ourselves and the world around us much more consistent the world around us much more consistent the world around us much more consistent with what religion says and I think also with what religion says and I think also with what religion says and I think also where science where science where science guides us and is more and more guiding guides us and is more and more guiding guides us and is more and more guiding us as we have more and more knowledge us as we have more and more knowledge us as we have more and more knowledge and understanding. Now we feel that and understanding. Now we feel that and understanding. Now we feel that we're part of something greater than us, we're part of something greater than us, we're part of something greater than us, right? There are forces that push right? There are forces that push right? There are forces that push towards good and forces that push towards good and forces that push towards good and forces that push towards evil. Forces that push towards towards evil. Forces that push towards towards evil. Forces that push towards construction and and towards destruction construction and and towards destruction construction and and towards destruction and and we know how we want to be and and and we know how we want to be and and and we know how we want to be and where we want to be, you know, in that where we want to be, you know, in that where we want to be, you know, in that spectrum. We want to be generative and spectrum. We want to be generative and spectrum. We want to be generative and we want to be making the world better we want to be making the world better we want to be making the world better than we left and we want to be bettering than we left and we want to be bettering than we left and we want to be bettering ourselves. You know, now we're being I ourselves. You know, now we're being I ourselves. You know, now we're being I think much more true to the reality that think much more true to the reality that think much more true to the reality that we experience as opposed to being so we experience as opposed to being so we experience as opposed to being so reductionist that we see one good, one reductionist that we see one good, one reductionist that we see one good, one evil and where we going to be, you know, evil and where we going to be, you know, evil and where we going to be, you know, in in that polarized in in that polarized in in that polarized opposites. opposites. opposites. Is it a reasonable goal to want to be Is it a reasonable goal to want to be Is it a reasonable goal to want to be happy-go-lucky? happy-go-lucky? happy-go-lucky? Can I aspire to that and also Can I aspire to that and also Can I aspire to that and also be a productive person? be a productive person? be a productive person? Unfortunately, no. Unfortunately, no. Unfortunately, no. Right? Happy-go-lucky Right? Happy-go-lucky Right? Happy-go-lucky I think to me it it implies that I think to me it it implies that I think to me it it implies that there's not an awareness that hey there there's not an awareness that hey there there's not an awareness that hey there are difficult things in the world and in are difficult things in the world and in are difficult things in the world and in fact there are difficult things in my fact there are difficult things in my fact there are difficult things in my own life, right? I think happy-go-lucky own life, right? I think happy-go-lucky own life, right? I think happy-go-lucky implies that we're not aware of how implies that we're not aware of how implies that we're not aware of how difficult life can be or or maybe life difficult life can be or or maybe life difficult life can be or or maybe life has at times been. So I don't think that has at times been. So I don't think that has at times been. So I don't think that you can be happy-go-lucky you can be happy-go-lucky you can be happy-go-lucky and I think it's good that you can't be and I think it's good that you can't be and I think it's good that you can't be because who who wants to lose the because who who wants to lose the because who who wants to lose the grounding of the things that are real in grounding of the things that are real in grounding of the things that are real in life that might take away the go-lucky life that might take away the go-lucky life that might take away the go-lucky part, right? I think that you can be part, right? I think that you can be part, right? I think that you can be happy, right? And I think that that's happy, right? And I think that that's happy, right? And I think that that's better than happiness that includes some better than happiness that includes some better than happiness that includes some turning away or some forgetfulness, turning away or some forgetfulness, turning away or some forgetfulness, right? So if we take away the go-lucky right? So if we take away the go-lucky right? So if we take away the go-lucky which is I think not desirable or which is I think not desirable or which is I think not desirable or possible I do absolutely believe that possible I do absolutely believe that possible I do absolutely believe that you can be you can be you can be happy because what we want and I think happy because what we want and I think happy because what we want and I think there are studies that show us this and there are studies that show us this and there are studies that show us this and and just thinking about and just thinking about and just thinking about how humans have written in literature how humans have written in literature how humans have written in literature and philosophy across time of what do we and philosophy across time of what do we and philosophy across time of what do we mean when we say happy? We do want to mean when we say happy? We do want to mean when we say happy? We do want to find peace, contentment and the capacity find peace, contentment and the capacity find peace, contentment and the capacity for delight. You know, we we just want for delight. You know, we we just want for delight. You know, we we just want to be able to just be and not have so to be able to just be and not have so to be able to just be and not have so much going on inside or coming at us, much going on inside or coming at us, much going on inside or coming at us, right? We all say we just want a little right? We all say we just want a little right? We all say we just want a little bit of peace. I you know, I want to just bit of peace. I you know, I want to just bit of peace. I you know, I want to just sometimes walk around and be able to sometimes walk around and be able to sometimes walk around and be able to look up at the trees around me and and look up at the trees around me and and look up at the trees around me and and see that the trees are pretty, right? To see that the trees are pretty, right? To see that the trees are pretty, right? To that for me that's peace and and I think that for me that's peace and and I think that for me that's peace and and I think yes, we we can all find our way yes, we we can all find our way yes, we we can all find our way to peace. We may not be able to have it to peace. We may not be able to have it to peace. We may not be able to have it every moment. We don't have to have it every moment. We don't have to have it every moment. We don't have to have it every moment to be happy. every moment to be happy. every moment to be happy. So so we need some peace and we need So so we need some peace and we need So so we need some peace and we need some contentment and and contentment some contentment and and contentment some contentment and and contentment means that there's awareness of our means that there's awareness of our means that there's awareness of our lives. Of the things that have gone well lives. Of the things that have gone well lives. Of the things that have gone well and the things that haven't. So I can and the things that haven't. So I can and the things that haven't. So I can find contentment in my life not every find contentment in my life not every find contentment in my life not every moment, but I can find it even holding moment, but I can find it even holding moment, but I can find it even holding in my mind awareness of tragedies that in my mind awareness of tragedies that in my mind awareness of tragedies that have happened in my life or things that have happened in my life or things that have happened in my life or things that I haven't done or or I haven't done or or I haven't done or or performed about the way I would have performed about the way I would have performed about the way I would have ideally wanted to. I can be aware of ideally wanted to. I can be aware of ideally wanted to. I can be aware of those things inside of me, but be aware those things inside of me, but be aware those things inside of me, but be aware of the whole arc of my life and feel of the whole arc of my life and feel of the whole arc of my life and feel good about it. You know, there was a good about it. You know, there was a good about it. You know, there was a thought about it embracing our fate, thought about it embracing our fate, thought about it embracing our fate, embracing what we've created for embracing what we've created for embracing what we've created for ourselves in early humanists Nietzsche. ourselves in early humanists Nietzsche. ourselves in early humanists Nietzsche. This was sort of written about of the This was sort of written about of the This was sort of written about of the fate that we create for ourselves. Can fate that we create for ourselves. Can fate that we create for ourselves. Can we can we embrace it and want to live it we can we embrace it and want to live it we can we embrace it and want to live it over and over again even knowing the over and over again even knowing the over and over again even knowing the things in it that may be tragic or not things in it that may be tragic or not things in it that may be tragic or not great. Yes, I think we can find peace. great. Yes, I think we can find peace. great. Yes, I think we can find peace. We can find contentment and we can find We can find contentment and we can find We can find contentment and we can find the capacity for delight. We all had it the capacity for delight. We all had it the capacity for delight. We all had it as children and if we don't have it now as children and if we don't have it now as children and if we don't have it now as adults there's something we can do as adults there's something we can do as adults there's something we can do about that. We all need to be able to about that. We all need to be able to about that. We all need to be able to see something that just makes us light see something that just makes us light see something that just makes us light up. So I think you and and all the rest up. So I think you and and all the rest up. So I think you and and all the rest of us it may be different how we're of us it may be different how we're of us it may be different how we're going to find it and how much of it and going to find it and how much of it and going to find it and how much of it and how much time we live in happiness, but how much time we live in happiness, but how much time we live in happiness, but I think the answer for you and me and I think the answer for you and me and I think the answer for you and me and everyone else is we can find happiness everyone else is we can find happiness everyone else is we can find happiness because we can weave peace, contentment because we can weave peace, contentment because we can weave peace, contentment and delight into our lives. and delight into our lives. and delight into our lives. So is it the case that the things that So is it the case that the things that So is it the case that the things that bring us delight make us bring us delight make us bring us delight make us for moments feel um for moments feel um for moments feel um very joyful. very joyful. very joyful. What I'm hearing is that What I'm hearing is that What I'm hearing is that it has to be on a backdrop of some hard it has to be on a backdrop of some hard it has to be on a backdrop of some hard things and some strivings. That the goal things and some strivings. That the goal things and some strivings. That the goal is not is not is not complete peace and ease. complete peace and ease. complete peace and ease. I think complete peace and ease isn't I think complete peace and ease isn't I think complete peace and ease isn't possible. possible. possible. Right? I think for most of us, you know, Right? I think for most of us, you know, Right? I think for most of us, you know, life has brought difficulties for life has brought difficulties for life has brought difficulties for everyone in one way or another and life everyone in one way or another and life everyone in one way or another and life does have its its risks and its dangers does have its its risks and its dangers does have its its risks and its dangers and its its vulnerabilities. So so to and its its vulnerabilities. So so to and its its vulnerabilities. So so to think that we need to not have that think that we need to not have that think that we need to not have that anywhere in our minds in order to feel anywhere in our minds in order to feel anywhere in our minds in order to feel good, in order to be happy I think tells good, in order to be happy I think tells good, in order to be happy I think tells us that we can't be happy being human. us that we can't be happy being human. us that we can't be happy being human. And and oftentimes it leads us to say And and oftentimes it leads us to say And and oftentimes it leads us to say well I just I want to not worry about well I just I want to not worry about well I just I want to not worry about anything. I don't want to have anything anything. I don't want to have anything anything. I don't want to have anything weighing on me and you know, we start weighing on me and you know, we start weighing on me and you know, we start listing a bunch of things that sound listing a bunch of things that sound listing a bunch of things that sound like death, right? When we're trying to like death, right? When we're trying to like death, right? When we're trying to talk about how we're going to be happy, talk about how we're going to be happy, talk about how we're going to be happy, right? And like that's that's not what right? And like that's that's not what right? And like that's that's not what we're going for, right? I do want to we're going for, right? I do want to we're going for, right? I do want to have times of peace when like I'm not have times of peace when like I'm not have times of peace when like I'm not thinking about bad things that have thinking about bad things that have thinking about bad things that have happened. I'm just at peace and I'm happened. I'm just at peace and I'm happened. I'm just at peace and I'm looking at the tree or the bird sitting looking at the tree or the bird sitting looking at the tree or the bird sitting up in the tree or, you know, the log up in the tree or, you know, the log up in the tree or, you know, the log floating down the river which which made floating down the river which which made floating down the river which which made me brought me a lot of peace not that me brought me a lot of peace not that me brought me a lot of peace not that long ago. So we can have these moments. long ago. So we can have these moments. long ago. So we can have these moments. It has to also be an awareness of our It has to also be an awareness of our It has to also be an awareness of our lives and we have to at times be able to lives and we have to at times be able to lives and we have to at times be able to to have in our minds the things that are to have in our minds the things that are to have in our minds the things that are not the way we want them to be and the not the way we want them to be and the not the way we want them to be and the things that are tragic and still feel things that are tragic and still feel things that are tragic and still feel good about our lives. I think that's how good about our lives. I think that's how good about our lives. I think that's how we find real happiness and we're not we find real happiness and we're not we find real happiness and we're not just looking for escapes cuz often the just looking for escapes cuz often the just looking for escapes cuz often the happy-go-lucky part is where we're happy-go-lucky part is where we're happy-go-lucky part is where we're looking for an escape and it's kind of looking for an escape and it's kind of looking for an escape and it's kind of easy to to to feel that way sometimes if easy to to to feel that way sometimes if easy to to to feel that way sometimes if if a person chooses an escape and it if a person chooses an escape and it if a person chooses an escape and it could be even in a substance where okay, could be even in a substance where okay, could be even in a substance where okay, it felt good for a couple of hours, but it felt good for a couple of hours, but it felt good for a couple of hours, but at what cost, right? We're not looking at what cost, right? We're not looking at what cost, right? We're not looking for escape. What we're looking for is is for escape. What we're looking for is is for escape. What we're looking for is is the ability to apprehend our own lives, the ability to apprehend our own lives, the ability to apprehend our own lives, feel enough in control of our own lives feel enough in control of our own lives feel enough in control of our own lives that I don't have to be really afraid of that I don't have to be really afraid of that I don't have to be really afraid of the future. I know that there may be the future. I know that there may be the future. I know that there may be scary things in them, but I'm going to scary things in them, but I'm going to scary things in them, but I'm going to meet them as best I can. I don't have to meet them as best I can. I don't have to meet them as best I can. I don't have to be afraid of the future and I feel good be afraid of the future and I feel good be afraid of the future and I feel good about my life. I feel enough in control about my life. I feel enough in control about my life. I feel enough in control and I have enough understanding that I and I have enough understanding that I and I have enough understanding that I can say okay, I'm I'm I'm I'm good with can say okay, I'm I'm I'm I'm good with can say okay, I'm I'm I'm I'm good with me at the moment and you know, now that me at the moment and you know, now that me at the moment and you know, now that moment has become another moment and I'm moment has become another moment and I'm moment has become another moment and I'm moving forward and I'm doing the best I moving forward and I'm doing the best I moving forward and I'm doing the best I can because these this sequence of can because these this sequence of can because these this sequence of moments are the only the only time I'm moments are the only the only time I'm moments are the only the only time I'm alive and I want to be really present alive and I want to be really present alive and I want to be really present for it. for it. for it. There used to be a lot of articles There used to be a lot of articles There used to be a lot of articles written and you could still find the written and you could still find the written and you could still find the stuff online about, you know, uh stuff online about, you know, uh stuff online about, you know, uh regrets that people had close to the end regrets that people had close to the end regrets that people had close to the end of their life and um of their life and um of their life and um you know, no one [clears throat] ever you know, no one [clears throat] ever you know, no one [clears throat] ever said they wish they spent more time at said they wish they spent more time at said they wish they spent more time at the office. I don't know. I know some the office. I don't know. I know some the office. I don't know. I know some people that loved their work and loved people that loved their work and loved people that loved their work and loved their work. their work. their work. Did they love it to the, you know, Did they love it to the, you know, Did they love it to the, you know, uh to the detriment of their family? In uh to the detriment of their family? In uh to the detriment of their family? In some cases yes and a lot of cases no. some cases yes and a lot of cases no. some cases yes and a lot of cases no. And so I I don't like those lists. I And so I I don't like those lists. I And so I I don't like those lists. I think those lists are serve as prompts think those lists are serve as prompts think those lists are serve as prompts for asking questions. Am I over invested for asking questions. Am I over invested for asking questions. Am I over invested in one area versus another, but I'm in one area versus another, but I'm in one area versus another, but I'm guessing you've spent some time with guessing you've spent some time with guessing you've spent some time with people who people who people who are are are close to the end of their life or at the close to the end of their life or at the close to the end of their life or at the end of their life. end of their life. end of their life. >> Yes. Have you ever encountered someone >> Yes. Have you ever encountered someone >> Yes. Have you ever encountered someone who like really nailed it? You didn't who like really nailed it? You didn't who like really nailed it? You didn't think they were just telling you a story think they were just telling you a story think they were just telling you a story about how they really they felt really about how they really they felt really about how they really they felt really good about how they had spent their good about how they had spent their good about how they had spent their mental life and their energies. Yes. We mental life and their energies. Yes. We mental life and their energies. Yes. We don't hear about those people very don't hear about those people very don't hear about those people very often. Yes. But we just don't. We hear often. Yes. But we just don't. We hear often. Yes. But we just don't. We hear that oh, you know, no one lies on their that oh, you know, no one lies on their that oh, you know, no one lies on their deathbed thinking they you know, deathbed thinking they you know, deathbed thinking they you know, we hear all the stuff you're not we hear all the stuff you're not we hear all the stuff you're not supposed to do. Are there any insights supposed to do. Are there any insights supposed to do. Are there any insights or just or just or just and if you can't remember just just and if you can't remember just just and if you can't remember just just feelings that arrived for you when feelings that arrived for you when feelings that arrived for you when talking to these people that you talking to these people that you talking to these people that you genuinely believe oh, like if they genuinely believe oh, like if they genuinely believe oh, like if they didn't hit the bull's-eye, they were didn't hit the bull's-eye, they were didn't hit the bull's-eye, they were darn close. Yes. Yeah, what does it what darn close. Yes. Yeah, what does it what darn close. Yes. Yeah, what does it what did that look like or feel like and what did that look like or feel like and what did that look like or feel like and what did they say? did they say? did they say? It makes me think actually of of a real It makes me think actually of of a real It makes me think actually of of a real example in my own life where a family example in my own life where a family example in my own life where a family member much older than me. He would member much older than me. He would member much older than me. He would probably be 120. So if he were were probably be 120. So if he were were probably be 120. So if he were were still alive. So he was very very old at still alive. So he was very very old at still alive. So he was very very old at the time who had really made something the time who had really made something the time who had really made something of himself. He didn't have much in the of himself. He didn't have much in the of himself. He didn't have much in the way of education and and he'd been a way of education and and he'd been a way of education and and he'd been a successful member of the community. He'd successful member of the community. He'd successful member of the community. He'd given back to the community. He had no given back to the community. He had no given back to the community. He had no education. He started a bank and you education. He started a bank and you education. He started a bank and you know, the bank became international and know, the bank became international and know, the bank became international and he and he was so good and so helpful to he and he was so good and so helpful to he and he was so good and so helpful to the place he had come from and he'd had the place he had come from and he'd had the place he had come from and he'd had real tragedies in his life. He'd lost a real tragedies in his life. He'd lost a real tragedies in his life. He'd lost a child and when he learned that I was child and when he learned that I was child and when he learned that I was going to medical school a long long time going to medical school a long long time going to medical school a long long time ago, he asked to see me and he was in ago, he asked to see me and he was in ago, he asked to see me and he was in his actually would have been in his his actually would have been in his his actually would have been in his early 90s at the time and he told me early 90s at the time and he told me early 90s at the time and he told me that he was happy with his life and that that he was happy with his life and that that he was happy with his life and that he realized that he could die at any he realized that he could die at any he realized that he could die at any moment and he understood and he accepted moment and he understood and he accepted moment and he understood and he accepted that that he tried to do the best that that that he tried to do the best that that that he tried to do the best that he could and he'd made something of he could and he'd made something of he could and he'd made something of himself and that there were was sadness himself and that there were was sadness himself and that there were was sadness in his life and and and things he in his life and and and things he in his life and and and things he certainly wished would have been certainly wished would have been certainly wished would have been different but that he was happy with his different but that he was happy with his different but that he was happy with his life and he was okay with dying and and life and he was okay with dying and and life and he was okay with dying and and he wanted me to know that he thought he wanted me to know that he thought he wanted me to know that he thought that was a good way to feel right and that was a good way to feel right and that was a good way to feel right and and that it was tempting to to want to and that it was tempting to to want to and that it was tempting to to want to to be so much and put so much pressure to be so much and put so much pressure to be so much and put so much pressure on yourself that you that you could on yourself that you that you could on yourself that you that you could achieve a lot and not be able to feel achieve a lot and not be able to feel achieve a lot and not be able to feel good about it and it's not it's not good about it and it's not it's not good about it and it's not it's not something I forgot. I mean, I do think something I forgot. I mean, I do think something I forgot. I mean, I do think of that with with fair frequency and and of that with with fair frequency and and of that with with fair frequency and and it made me think of that here. I thought it made me think of that here. I thought it made me think of that here. I thought that's that's that's that's a person who's lived that's a person who's lived that's a person who's lived life and and now I wasn't thinking it at life and and now I wasn't thinking it at life and and now I wasn't thinking it at the time but he was clearly describing the time but he was clearly describing the time but he was clearly describing being able to have peace and have being able to have peace and have being able to have peace and have contentment to to feel good about his contentment to to feel good about his contentment to to feel good about his life even knowing the things that were life even knowing the things that were life even knowing the things that were not great and then the capacity for not great and then the capacity for not great and then the capacity for delight. There were still things he was delight. There were still things he was delight. There were still things he was very very excited about and his face very very excited about and his face very very excited about and his face would still light up and and I think would still light up and and I think would still light up and and I think that was probably earlier role modeling that was probably earlier role modeling that was probably earlier role modeling for me of oh, like that that's I'd like for me of oh, like that that's I'd like for me of oh, like that that's I'd like to feel that way. You know, I'd like to to feel that way. You know, I'd like to to feel that way. You know, I'd like to be in my 90s and be able to say that and be in my 90s and be able to say that and be in my 90s and be able to say that and it's really stuck with me. it's really stuck with me. it's really stuck with me. That's awesome. That's awesome. That's awesome. I I I I think we need to think a lot more I think we need to think a lot more I think we need to think a lot more about about about what's going right, what went right. what's going right, what went right. what's going right, what went right. >> Mhm. Yes. >> Mhm. Yes. >> Mhm. Yes. >> We were talking about that today. Yes. >> We were talking about that today. Yes. >> We were talking about that today. Yes. What went right? Yes. What's going right What went right? Yes. What's going right What went right? Yes. What's going right in my life? What I've made go right in in my life? What I've made go right in in my life? What I've made go right in my life, right? What hasn't gone right my life, right? What hasn't gone right my life, right? What hasn't gone right and I showed up anyway, right? That's and I showed up anyway, right? That's and I showed up anyway, right? That's part of what's going right. part of what's going right. part of what's going right. Yeah, we so easily default to the Yeah, we so easily default to the Yeah, we so easily default to the losses. losses. losses. Mhm. Or which can also be beautiful in Mhm. Or which can also be beautiful in Mhm. Or which can also be beautiful in some sense. Sometimes some sense. Sometimes some sense. Sometimes sometimes but we we so easily go to sometimes but we we so easily go to sometimes but we we so easily go to what's wrong, what's wrong, what's what's wrong, what's wrong, what's what's wrong, what's wrong, what's wrong. But I'm also hearing that wrong. But I'm also hearing that wrong. But I'm also hearing that happy-go-lucky and just thinking about happy-go-lucky and just thinking about happy-go-lucky and just thinking about what's going right, that's not the what's going right, that's not the what's going right, that's not the answer either. It's just not it. There answer either. It's just not it. There answer either. It's just not it. There has to be that contrast. This is what has to be that contrast. This is what has to be that contrast. This is what I'm hearing you saying today. Yes. Yes. I'm hearing you saying today. Yes. Yes. I'm hearing you saying today. Yes. Yes. We have to be living an examined life in We have to be living an examined life in We have to be living an examined life in order to live intentionally. So so yes, order to live intentionally. So so yes, order to live intentionally. So so yes, we do have to look at ourselves but the we do have to look at ourselves but the we do have to look at ourselves but the good news is that's okay. You know, most good news is that's okay. You know, most good news is that's okay. You know, most of us don't want to be dragged kicking of us don't want to be dragged kicking of us don't want to be dragged kicking and screaming to looking at ourselves and screaming to looking at ourselves and screaming to looking at ourselves but that's just because we're afraid and but that's just because we're afraid and but that's just because we're afraid and if we know I'm not going to find if we know I'm not going to find if we know I'm not going to find anything there that's going to really anything there that's going to really anything there that's going to really shock me or probably not going to find shock me or probably not going to find shock me or probably not going to find anything I'm not already well aware of anything I'm not already well aware of anything I'm not already well aware of even if I've you know, even if I'm even if I've you know, even if I'm even if I've you know, even if I'm trying to hide it from myself and then trying to hide it from myself and then trying to hide it from myself and then there's a process I can go through go go there's a process I can go through go go there's a process I can go through go go through. If I look at myself, I can use through. If I look at myself, I can use through. If I look at myself, I can use the knowledge to make things better. You the knowledge to make things better. You the knowledge to make things better. You know, then that's the simple goodness of know, then that's the simple goodness of know, then that's the simple goodness of it's okay to look at ourselves. We have it's okay to look at ourselves. We have it's okay to look at ourselves. We have to but we also get to. Right and and to but we also get to. Right and and to but we also get to. Right and and that's how we're going to live good that's how we're going to live good that's how we're going to live good lives. That's how we live the best life lives. That's how we live the best life lives. That's how we live the best life we can get and and maybe we get to that we can get and and maybe we get to that we can get and and maybe we get to that point where we can look back and feel point where we can look back and feel point where we can look back and feel good about the choices that we've made good about the choices that we've made good about the choices that we've made and maybe feel okay about choices we've and maybe feel okay about choices we've and maybe feel okay about choices we've made even if they haven't led to places made even if they haven't led to places made even if they haven't led to places where we've wanted them to be that we where we've wanted them to be that we where we've wanted them to be that we can still embrace ourselves and the can still embrace ourselves and the can still embrace ourselves and the lives we've led. lives we've led. lives we've led. If you don't mind, I just want to ask a If you don't mind, I just want to ask a If you don't mind, I just want to ask a couple of questions that are a little couple of questions that are a little couple of questions that are a little bit different than the ones we've been bit different than the ones we've been bit different than the ones we've been exploring. Was writing the book exploring. Was writing the book exploring. Was writing the book informative for you about the mind, informative for you about the mind, informative for you about the mind, about people in a way that all the about people in a way that all the about people in a way that all the clinical work and and certainly the clinical work and and certainly the clinical work and and certainly the podcasts you've done was was it podcasts you've done was was it podcasts you've done was was it different? Did it did it teach you different? Did it did it teach you different? Did it did it teach you anything and if you if so, are you anything and if you if so, are you anything and if you if so, are you willing to share one or two of those willing to share one or two of those willing to share one or two of those things? things? things? >> Sure. Sure. >> Sure. Sure. >> Sure. Sure. I think writing about what we know helps I think writing about what we know helps I think writing about what we know helps us know it better, right? Because us know it better, right? Because us know it better, right? Because because part of knowing something is because part of knowing something is because part of knowing something is also being aware that we don't know also being aware that we don't know also being aware that we don't know everything about it. So then when we everything about it. So then when we everything about it. So then when we organize our thoughts and it's like I'm organize our thoughts and it's like I'm organize our thoughts and it's like I'm doing the best I can to put this down so doing the best I can to put this down so doing the best I can to put this down so other people can understand it. We just other people can understand it. We just other people can understand it. We just have to learn from that process. So so have to learn from that process. So so have to learn from that process. So so yeah, I do I do feel that I learned as yeah, I do I do feel that I learned as yeah, I do I do feel that I learned as part of writing it and incorporating part of writing it and incorporating part of writing it and incorporating clinical examples and just incorporating clinical examples and just incorporating clinical examples and just incorporating events from life. It helped me I think events from life. It helped me I think events from life. It helped me I think have a fuller view of I do do you think have a fuller view of I do do you think have a fuller view of I do do you think that this says a lot about that this says a lot about that this says a lot about how we're being humans in the world and how we're being humans in the world and how we're being humans in the world and and you know, how our mind is structured and you know, how our mind is structured and you know, how our mind is structured that there is this parallel to the body that there is this parallel to the body that there is this parallel to the body and you know, and we can bring it to the and you know, and we can bring it to the and you know, and we can bring it to the fore and I felt very hopeful and fore and I felt very hopeful and fore and I felt very hopeful and optimistic that optimistic that optimistic that that it kind of holds together and you that it kind of holds together and you that it kind of holds together and you know, and and it leads somewhere. So know, and and it leads somewhere. So know, and and it leads somewhere. So yeah, I think I got I got a lot out of yeah, I think I got I got a lot out of yeah, I think I got I got a lot out of organizing my thoughts better in writing organizing my thoughts better in writing organizing my thoughts better in writing the book. the book. the book. Last question which is completely Last question which is completely Last question which is completely outside the realm of what we've been outside the realm of what we've been outside the realm of what we've been talking about. Has Lex Fridman texted talking about. Has Lex Fridman texted talking about. Has Lex Fridman texted you back cuz he hasn't texted me back in you back cuz he hasn't texted me back in you back cuz he hasn't texted me back in a while. I have not heard from Lex a while. I have not heard from Lex a while. I have not heard from Lex Fridman. Yeah. Fridman. Yeah. Fridman. Yeah. >> Despite multiple efforts, there has been >> Despite multiple efforts, there has been >> Despite multiple efforts, there has been no response. Yeah, there there are no response. Yeah, there there are no response. Yeah, there there are rumors that he's in Dagestan. There are rumors that he's in Dagestan. There are rumors that he's in Dagestan. There are rumors that he's that he's in Austin and rumors that he's that he's in Austin and rumors that he's that he's in Austin and he he he and Lex we we love you and you don't and Lex we we love you and you don't and Lex we we love you and you don't have to text us back but um just maybe have to text us back but um just maybe have to text us back but um just maybe just throw up a sign that you're okay. just throw up a sign that you're okay. just throw up a sign that you're okay. Or we're going to send a search party to Or we're going to send a search party to Or we're going to send a search party to Dagestan. Right. And if you're not Dagestan. Right. And if you're not Dagestan. Right. And if you're not there, then we're really in trouble. Dr. there, then we're really in trouble. Dr. there, then we're really in trouble. Dr. Paul Conti, Paul Conti, Paul Conti, this was awesome. Um this was awesome. Um this was awesome. Um I I have to say and I'm not going to I I have to say and I'm not going to I I have to say and I'm not going to repeat everything, I promise but I have repeat everything, I promise but I have repeat everything, I promise but I have to say what I love so much about talking to say what I love so much about talking to say what I love so much about talking with you is that with you is that with you is that like exploring these caverns of things like exploring these caverns of things like exploring these caverns of things and then these gems just pop out like and then these gems just pop out like and then these gems just pop out like this idea that we can be on our own side this idea that we can be on our own side this idea that we can be on our own side by seeing what we by seeing what we by seeing what we don't want to be controlled by. Mhm. I don't want to be controlled by. Mhm. I don't want to be controlled by. Mhm. I think I know that's really going to think I know that's really going to think I know that's really going to resonate with people because behavioral resonate with people because behavioral resonate with people because behavioral change is like the hardest thing. Mhm. change is like the hardest thing. Mhm. change is like the hardest thing. Mhm. And behavioral change when people And behavioral change when people And behavioral change when people realize they're not changing is like realize they're not changing is like realize they're not changing is like it's like a double whammy. it's like a double whammy. it's like a double whammy. So that alone is is enormous and So that alone is is enormous and So that alone is is enormous and >> Right. and the focus on what's right, >> Right. and the focus on what's right, >> Right. and the focus on what's right, I'm not trying to just repeatedly I'm not trying to just repeatedly I'm not trying to just repeatedly you know, state the title of the book. I you know, state the title of the book. I you know, state the title of the book. I mean, what's going right is it's just so mean, what's going right is it's just so mean, what's going right is it's just so vital. I think especially in this time vital. I think especially in this time vital. I think especially in this time when you when you when you turn on the news and it's just like all turn on the news and it's just like all turn on the news and it's just like all these things that are challenging to the these things that are challenging to the these things that are challenging to the world which certainly many of them need world which certainly many of them need world which certainly many of them need attention but focusing on what's going attention but focusing on what's going attention but focusing on what's going right, what has gone right right, what has gone right right, what has gone right is just it's so it's so essential right is just it's so it's so essential right is just it's so it's so essential right now. now. now. And it's really what I've learned from And it's really what I've learned from And it's really what I've learned from you today is that it's really the you today is that it's really the you today is that it's really the lifeblood of what it is to be lifeblood of what it is to be lifeblood of what it is to be a a a joyous human being with the caveat that joyous human being with the caveat that joyous human being with the caveat that we also have to address the challenges we also have to address the challenges we also have to address the challenges and if they're there, the traumas and and if they're there, the traumas and and if they're there, the traumas and and that there's really no other way. and that there's really no other way. and that there's really no other way. That that's what I'm taking from this. That that's what I'm taking from this. That that's what I'm taking from this. Yes and that we can do that and and Yes and that we can do that and and Yes and that we can do that and and instead of thinking maybe that we can do instead of thinking maybe that we can do instead of thinking maybe that we can do that or we have to do that. We get to do that or we have to do that. We get to do that or we have to do that. We get to do that. That there should be an excitement that. That there should be an excitement that. That there should be an excitement that we bring, an enthusiasm and a that we bring, an enthusiasm and a that we bring, an enthusiasm and a hopefulness that we bring to that hopefulness that we bring to that hopefulness that we bring to that process. process. process. Well, thank you for being here today. Well, thank you for being here today. Well, thank you for being here today. Thank you for writing the book. Thank you for writing the book. Thank you for writing the book. It's going to serve so many people and It's going to serve so many people and It's going to serve so many people and yeah, thank you for taking your training yeah, thank you for taking your training yeah, thank you for taking your training and your your clinical experience and and your your clinical experience and and your your clinical experience and putting it out into the world. You know, putting it out into the world. You know, putting it out into the world. You know, you don't have any obligation to do that you don't have any obligation to do that you don't have any obligation to do that and most everything that you know and and most everything that you know and and most everything that you know and that transpires in those sessions that transpires in those sessions that transpires in those sessions everything would not everything would not everything would not serve the larger world to the extent serve the larger world to the extent serve the larger world to the extent that it does that it does that it does were you not willing to you know, get were you not willing to you know, get were you not willing to you know, get out here and there and um share with out here and there and um share with out here and there and um share with people. So thank you. You're clearly people. So thank you. You're clearly people. So thank you. You're clearly one of the leading public educators on one of the leading public educators on one of the leading public educators on the mind and the self and and navigating the mind and the self and and navigating the mind and the self and and navigating this this life landscape. So thank you this this life landscape. So thank you this this life landscape. So thank you so much for coming here today and come so much for coming here today and come so much for coming here today and come back again, please. You're very welcome. back again, please. You're very welcome. back again, please. You're very welcome. Thank you for giving me the opportunity Thank you for giving me the opportunity Thank you for giving me the opportunity to do so. It's my pleasure. to do so. It's my pleasure. to do so. It's my pleasure. Thank you for joining me for today's Thank you for joining me for today's Thank you for joining me for today's discussion with Dr. Paul Conti. To learn discussion with Dr. Paul Conti. To learn discussion with Dr. Paul Conti. To learn more about his work and to find links to more about his work and to find links to more about his work and to find links to his new book, What's Going Right, please his new book, What's Going Right, please his new book, What's Going Right, please see the links in the show note captions. see the links in the show note captions. see the links in the show note captions. If you're learning from and or enjoying If you're learning from and or enjoying If you're learning from and or enjoying this podcast, please subscribe to our this podcast, please subscribe to our this podcast, please subscribe to our YouTube channel. That's a terrific zero YouTube channel. That's a terrific zero YouTube channel. That's a terrific zero cost way to support us. In addition, cost way to support us. In addition, cost way to support us. 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It's my very first book. coming out. It's my very first book. It's entitled Protocols, an operating It's entitled Protocols, an operating It's entitled Protocols, an operating manual for the human body. This is a manual for the human body. This is a manual for the human body. This is a book that I've been working on for more book that I've been working on for more book that I've been working on for more than five years and that's based on more than five years and that's based on more than five years and that's based on more than 30 years of research and than 30 years of research and than 30 years of research and experience. And it covers protocols for experience. And it covers protocols for experience. And it covers protocols for everything from sleep to exercise to everything from sleep to exercise to everything from sleep to exercise to stress control, protocols related to stress control, protocols related to stress control, protocols related to focus and motivation. And of course, I focus and motivation. And of course, I focus and motivation. And of course, I provide the scientific substantiation provide the scientific substantiation provide the scientific substantiation for the protocols that are included. The for the protocols that are included. The for the protocols that are included. The book is now available by pre-sale at book is now available by pre-sale at book is now available by pre-sale at protocolsbook.com. protocolsbook.com. protocolsbook.com. There you can find links to various There you can find links to various There you can find links to various vendors. You can pick the one that you vendors. You can pick the one that you vendors. You can pick the one that you like best. Again, the book is called like best. Again, the book is called like best. Again, the book is called Protocols, an operating manual for the Protocols, an operating manual for the Protocols, an operating manual for the human body. 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And on all those platforms, I discuss science all those platforms, I discuss science all those platforms, I discuss science and science-related tools, some of which and science-related tools, some of which and science-related tools, some of which overlaps with the content of the overlaps with the content of the overlaps with the content of the Huberman Lab Podcast, but much of which Huberman Lab Podcast, but much of which Huberman Lab Podcast, but much of which is distinct from the information on the is distinct from the information on the is distinct from the information on the Huberman Lab Podcast. Again, it's Huberman Lab Podcast. Again, it's Huberman Lab Podcast. Again, it's Huberman Lab on all social media Huberman Lab on all social media Huberman Lab on all social media platforms. And if you haven't already platforms. And if you haven't already platforms. 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We have a foundational fitness protocol have a foundational fitness protocol have a foundational fitness protocol that covers cardiovascular training and that covers cardiovascular training and that covers cardiovascular training and resistance training. All of that is resistance training. All of that is resistance training. All of that is available completely zero cost. You available completely zero cost. You available completely zero cost. You simply go to hubermanlab.com, go to the simply go to hubermanlab.com, go to the simply go to hubermanlab.com, go to the menu tab in the top right corner, scroll menu tab in the top right corner, scroll menu tab in the top right corner, scroll down to newsletter, and enter your down to newsletter, and enter your down to newsletter, and enter your email. And I should emphasize that we do email. And I should emphasize that we do email. And I should emphasize that we do not share your email with anybody. Thank not share your email with anybody. Thank not share your email with anybody. Thank you once again for joining me for you once again for joining me for you once again for joining me for today's discussion with Dr. Paul Conti. today's discussion with Dr. Paul Conti. today's discussion with Dr. Paul Conti. And last, but certainly not least, thank And last, but certainly not least, thank And last, but certainly not least, thank you for [music] your interest in you for [music] your interest in you for [music] your interest in science.