Tom Sach’s Message for Artists Worried About AI

We're, you know, careening off the cliff We're, you know, careening off the cliff of artificial intelligence. How do you of artificial intelligence. How do you of artificial intelligence. How do you think about what that means? Not just think about what that means? Not just think about what that means? Not just for artists, but for all of us. for artists, but for all of us. for artists, but for all of us. Um, Um, Um, I think you just I think you just I think you just >> Tom Saxs is an artist. He's a sculptor. >> Tom Saxs is an artist. He's a sculptor. >> Tom Saxs is an artist. He's a sculptor. He is a designer. He is a designer. He is a designer. >> The prolific New York-based artist whose >> The prolific New York-based artist whose >> The prolific New York-based artist whose work defies categorization. A very, very work defies categorization. A very, very work defies categorization. A very, very human artist. human artist. human artist. >> You're a legend. You're an icon. My goal >> You're a legend. You're an icon. My goal >> You're a legend. You're an icon. My goal is just to get as much time and go as is just to get as much time and go as is just to get as much time and go as deep as I can into like the raw deep as I can into like the raw deep as I can into like the raw sensuality of making stuff. The kind of sensuality of making stuff. The kind of sensuality of making stuff. The kind of work that I love most is when those work that I love most is when those work that I love most is when those errors and marks show. Artists do not errors and marks show. Artists do not errors and marks show. Artists do not have a corner on creativity. What are have a corner on creativity. What are have a corner on creativity. What are the kind of things that I want to make? the kind of things that I want to make? the kind of things that I want to make? What are the stories that I want to What are the stories that I want to What are the stories that I want to tell? Like what's authentic? >> It's a real honor to have uh have you >> It's a real honor to have uh have you here. I've wanted to meet you for quite here. I've wanted to meet you for quite here. I've wanted to meet you for quite a long time. I've been a fan at arms a long time. I've been a fan at arms a long time. I've been a fan at arms length for many years. One of your uh length for many years. One of your uh length for many years. One of your uh banger quotes is if at first you don't banger quotes is if at first you don't banger quotes is if at first you don't succeed, give up immediately. succeed, give up immediately. succeed, give up immediately. >> Yes. So important. So important. And and >> Yes. So important. So important. And and >> Yes. So important. So important. And and this is this is this is if anything comes from a place of if anything comes from a place of if anything comes from a place of privilege, it's that because we don't privilege, it's that because we don't privilege, it's that because we don't always have time. Sometimes we have to always have time. Sometimes we have to always have time. Sometimes we have to get through the problem and make a get through the problem and make a get through the problem and make a decision. But if we have a little bit of decision. But if we have a little bit of decision. But if we have a little bit of extra time, extra time, extra time, giving up immediately is the equivalent giving up immediately is the equivalent giving up immediately is the equivalent of sleeping on it. If you have a problem of sleeping on it. If you have a problem of sleeping on it. If you have a problem and you sleep on it, sometimes your and you sleep on it, sometimes your and you sleep on it, sometimes your subconscious mind can work on the subconscious mind can work on the subconscious mind can work on the problem. So how this is how if at first problem. So how this is how if at first problem. So how this is how if at first you don't succeed, give up immediately you don't succeed, give up immediately you don't succeed, give up immediately works. Work the problem until you get works. Work the problem until you get works. Work the problem until you get stuck. Give up immediately and move on stuck. Give up immediately and move on stuck. Give up immediately and move on to another problem, another project. to another problem, another project. to another problem, another project. Work that problem until you hit a wall. Work that problem until you hit a wall. Work that problem until you hit a wall. Move on to the third project. work that Move on to the third project. work that Move on to the third project. work that project and problem until you hit that project and problem until you hit that project and problem until you hit that wall. Then circle back to the first one. wall. Then circle back to the first one. wall. Then circle back to the first one. Your subconscious mind while it was Your subconscious mind while it was Your subconscious mind while it was working on the first two projects working on the first two projects working on the first two projects may have worked on that first one and may have worked on that first one and may have worked on that first one and you may be able to readress that problem you may be able to readress that problem you may be able to readress that problem or wall or crisis or situation through or wall or crisis or situation through or wall or crisis or situation through the information that you glean through the information that you glean through the information that you glean through the hard work and lifting of the of the the hard work and lifting of the of the the hard work and lifting of the of the second two and you loop around. second two and you loop around. second two and you loop around. >> Of course, it all depends on you having >> Of course, it all depends on you having >> Of course, it all depends on you having enough time. Like you might not it might enough time. Like you might not it might enough time. Like you might not it might be an all nighter so you might not be be an all nighter so you might not be be an all nighter so you might not be able to sleep on it. But what it does is able to sleep on it. But what it does is able to sleep on it. But what it does is it breaks the reptilian linear thinking it breaks the reptilian linear thinking it breaks the reptilian linear thinking and helps turn it into a circular and helps turn it into a circular and helps turn it into a circular thinking pattern. And the tautology and thinking pattern. And the tautology and thinking pattern. And the tautology and looping around of solving a of not looping around of solving a of not looping around of solving a of not knowing the answer and circling around knowing the answer and circling around knowing the answer and circling around something helps literally circling something helps literally circling something helps literally circling around the problem helps you see it from around the problem helps you see it from around the problem helps you see it from different perspectives. different perspectives. different perspectives. >> You have to indulge the unconscious mind >> You have to indulge the unconscious mind >> You have to indulge the unconscious mind to solve the problem that your direct to solve the problem that your direct to solve the problem that your direct approach is, you know, not able to. And approach is, you know, not able to. And approach is, you know, not able to. And the only way to do that is to redirect the only way to do that is to redirect the only way to do that is to redirect your attention onto something else. your attention onto something else. your attention onto something else. >> Yeah. And that's also the power of >> Yeah. And that's also the power of >> Yeah. And that's also the power of psychedelics. I mean, drugs are psychedelics. I mean, drugs are psychedelics. I mean, drugs are incredibly powerful, dangerous tool, but incredibly powerful, dangerous tool, but incredibly powerful, dangerous tool, but they um help us and are really they um help us and are really they um help us and are really just a window to what we can achieve just a window to what we can achieve just a window to what we can achieve through work. And that's why output through work. And that's why output through work. And that's why output before input is so important because it before input is so important because it before input is so important because it is a psychedelic state that's naturally is a psychedelic state that's naturally is a psychedelic state that's naturally made that's not harmful that everyone made that's not harmful that everyone made that's not harmful that everyone does every day. But we have to make an does every day. But we have to make an does every day. But we have to make an effort to prioritize it because we're effort to prioritize it because we're effort to prioritize it because we're being blocked by our phone which is being blocked by our phone which is being blocked by our phone which is irresistible because it's got irresistible because it's got irresistible because it's got >> everything that we think we we we want >> everything that we think we we we want >> everything that we think we we we want on it or everything that we think we on it or everything that we think we on it or everything that we think we need. Everything that we want but need. Everything that we want but need. Everything that we want but nothing that we need. And that nothing that we need. And that nothing that we need. And that perspective shift and the efforts perspective shift and the efforts perspective shift and the efforts towards nonlinear reptilian thinking is towards nonlinear reptilian thinking is towards nonlinear reptilian thinking is an incredible discipline. And if we can an incredible discipline. And if we can an incredible discipline. And if we can take the time to do it, we can achieve take the time to do it, we can achieve take the time to do it, we can achieve so much more and cut out so much noise so much more and cut out so much noise so much more and cut out so much noise from our life and have just a much more from our life and have just a much more from our life and have just a much more gratifying gratifying gratifying experience. experience. experience. I think the most counterintuitive uh of I think the most counterintuitive uh of I think the most counterintuitive uh of your of your bold statements is your of your bold statements is your of your bold statements is creativity is the enemy. Like that is creativity is the enemy. Like that is creativity is the enemy. Like that is not a sentence that you would expect to not a sentence that you would expect to not a sentence that you would expect to come out of the mouth of any artist. come out of the mouth of any artist. come out of the mouth of any artist. >> Yeah. And there's nothing I I I stand >> Yeah. And there's nothing I I I stand >> Yeah. And there's nothing I I I stand 100% behind that statement. Creativity 100% behind that statement. Creativity 100% behind that statement. Creativity is absolutely the enemy. But what I mean is absolutely the enemy. But what I mean is absolutely the enemy. But what I mean is eliminate comprise indulgence. is eliminate comprise indulgence. is eliminate comprise indulgence. Do the work and just do the work. Find Do the work and just do the work. Find Do the work and just do the work. Find the value in the work. Do not change the the value in the work. Do not change the the value in the work. Do not change the project midstream. project midstream. project midstream. Do not change your intentions midstream. Do not change your intentions midstream. Do not change your intentions midstream. Otherwise, you're bound to repeat past Otherwise, you're bound to repeat past Otherwise, you're bound to repeat past results. results. results. You must be totally persistent and You must be totally persistent and You must be totally persistent and consistent and keep going. Creativity is consistent and keep going. Creativity is consistent and keep going. Creativity is inevitable. it will come in but it's inevitable. it will come in but it's inevitable. it will come in but it's kind of like chili pepper if you put a kind of like chili pepper if you put a kind of like chili pepper if you put a little bit it makes it spicy and little bit it makes it spicy and little bit it makes it spicy and delicious but if you put too much it delicious but if you put too much it delicious but if you put too much it ruins it ruins it ruins it >> yeah I think the corollary uh that >> yeah I think the corollary uh that >> yeah I think the corollary uh that you've said on this topic is that you've said on this topic is that you've said on this topic is that creativity is not a leading strategy use creativity is not a leading strategy use creativity is not a leading strategy use only when necessary only when necessary only when necessary >> so creativity is sort of a a byproduct >> so creativity is sort of a a byproduct >> so creativity is sort of a a byproduct of being engaged in this process it will of being engaged in this process it will of being engaged in this process it will percolate up as a consequence of the percolate up as a consequence of the percolate up as a consequence of the doing but the important piece is like doing but the important piece is like doing but the important piece is like the assembly aspect of But yeah, I mean the assembly aspect of But yeah, I mean the assembly aspect of But yeah, I mean just because you can doesn't mean you just because you can doesn't mean you just because you can doesn't mean you should like just a little bit little should like just a little bit little should like just a little bit little bit. It'll sneak in there. It's bit. It'll sneak in there. It's bit. It'll sneak in there. It's irresistible, but try and eliminate it irresistible, but try and eliminate it irresistible, but try and eliminate it because that's why we have all these because that's why we have all these because that's why we have all these disgusting industrial design unnecessary disgusting industrial design unnecessary disgusting industrial design unnecessary curves and things that are designed to curves and things that are designed to curves and things that are designed to sell things. It takes a great tmerity sell things. It takes a great tmerity sell things. It takes a great tmerity and courage to have something that's and courage to have something that's and courage to have something that's less. as an industrial designer and less. as an industrial designer and less. as an industrial designer and industrial design is my hobby. The only industrial design is my hobby. The only industrial design is my hobby. The only thing that I do that very few other thing that I do that very few other thing that I do that very few other people do is less. That's my one thing I people do is less. That's my one thing I people do is less. That's my one thing I just try and do less. just try and do less. just try and do less. >> How do you reconcile that obsessive >> How do you reconcile that obsessive >> How do you reconcile that obsessive aspect of of of your perspective on your aspect of of of your perspective on your aspect of of of your perspective on your work with having uh a different or an work with having uh a different or an work with having uh a different or an interesting relationship with interesting relationship with interesting relationship with perfectionism? perfectionism? perfectionism? because what you what you do and the way because what you what you do and the way because what you what you do and the way that you do it can never be like perfect that you do it can never be like perfect that you do it can never be like perfect in the kind of conventional wisdom, you in the kind of conventional wisdom, you in the kind of conventional wisdom, you know, idea of what that of what that know, idea of what that of what that know, idea of what that of what that means. I think you just try. I think means. I think you just try. I think means. I think you just try. I think it's a little I if I'm understanding it's a little I if I'm understanding it's a little I if I'm understanding your question right, I think it's a your question right, I think it's a your question right, I think it's a little bit like sports. little bit like sports. little bit like sports. I mean, you're still mostly failing. I mean, you're still mostly failing. I mean, you're still mostly failing. You're just failing a little bit less You're just failing a little bit less You're just failing a little bit less than the other guy if you're if you win. than the other guy if you're if you win. than the other guy if you're if you win. And in baseball, And in baseball, And in baseball, if you hit it one out of four times, if you hit it one out of four times, if you hit it one out of four times, you're in the major leagues. If you hit you're in the major leagues. If you hit you're in the major leagues. If you hit it one out of five times, you're in the it one out of five times, you're in the it one out of five times, you're in the minor leagues. If you hit it one out of minor leagues. If you hit it one out of minor leagues. If you hit it one out of three times, you're like the greatest of three times, you're like the greatest of three times, you're like the greatest of all time. They're all still mostly all time. They're all still mostly all time. They're all still mostly losers. You're still mostly missing it. losers. You're still mostly missing it. losers. You're still mostly missing it. You're just missing it a little bit You're just missing it a little bit You're just missing it a little bit less. less. less. >> But in that world, it's a very objective >> But in that world, it's a very objective >> But in that world, it's a very objective metric of success and failure. And what metric of success and failure. And what metric of success and failure. And what you do is evaluated subjectively. And uh you do is evaluated subjectively. And uh you do is evaluated subjectively. And uh you go into these projects like the the you go into these projects like the the you go into these projects like the the art you make is the most tactile form of art you make is the most tactile form of art you make is the most tactile form of art possible. You approach it with this art possible. You approach it with this art possible. You approach it with this obsessive, you know, kind of obsessive, you know, kind of obsessive, you know, kind of perspective. And yet at the same time, perspective. And yet at the same time, perspective. And yet at the same time, what what makes it uniquely you, yours, what what makes it uniquely you, yours, what what makes it uniquely you, yours, and uniquely valuable is the human foot and uniquely valuable is the human foot and uniquely valuable is the human foot the human fingerprints that are on it. the human fingerprints that are on it. the human fingerprints that are on it. Like it's it's not about like creating Like it's it's not about like creating Like it's it's not about like creating something with a shiny veneer as much as something with a shiny veneer as much as something with a shiny veneer as much as it is it is it is >> uh >> uh >> uh >> an artifact that reveals the you know >> an artifact that reveals the you know >> an artifact that reveals the you know the the process of how it was made. Like the the process of how it was made. Like the the process of how it was made. Like there's a transparency like if you look there's a transparency like if you look there's a transparency like if you look at the minutiae of your work you can see at the minutiae of your work you can see at the minutiae of your work you can see how it was assembled and perhaps the how it was assembled and perhaps the how it was assembled and perhaps the mistakes or redirects along the way in mistakes or redirects along the way in mistakes or redirects along the way in order to create it. order to create it. order to create it. >> I'm not sure I'm going to answer it >> I'm not sure I'm going to answer it >> I'm not sure I'm going to answer it right, but I'll I'll try. And that's all right, but I'll I'll try. And that's all right, but I'll I'll try. And that's all those failures, those failures, those failures, those failure points, they they have those failure points, they they have those failure points, they they have they have evidence, an artifact. So So they have evidence, an artifact. So So they have evidence, an artifact. So So if I miss a put a screw in the wrong if I miss a put a screw in the wrong if I miss a put a screw in the wrong place and back it out and there's a hole place and back it out and there's a hole place and back it out and there's a hole and I fill it with resin, that was kind and I fill it with resin, that was kind and I fill it with resin, that was kind of like a miss, but I get a little bit of like a miss, but I get a little bit of like a miss, but I get a little bit of um with the style of in the way I of um with the style of in the way I of um with the style of in the way I make things, but I get a little bit of make things, but I get a little bit of make things, but I get a little bit of evidence for it. So there's some like evidence for it. So there's some like evidence for it. So there's some like credibility, authenticity, artifact from credibility, authenticity, artifact from credibility, authenticity, artifact from my [ __ ] my [ __ ] my [ __ ] And I think that's why I use the And I think that's why I use the And I think that's why I use the athletic analogy because it's just about athletic analogy because it's just about athletic analogy because it's just about keeping showing up and keeping showing up and keeping showing up and um just doing kind of the the the best um just doing kind of the the the best um just doing kind of the the the best you can. And you can. And you can. And the work, the kind of work that I love the work, the kind of work that I love the work, the kind of work that I love most is when it shows when those errors most is when it shows when those errors most is when it shows when those errors and marks show and marks show and marks show >> because in a way it's like an expression >> because in a way it's like an expression >> because in a way it's like an expression that I am somebody that I was there that that I am somebody that I was there that that I am somebody that I was there that it's got a fingerprint that it is it's got a fingerprint that it is it's got a fingerprint that it is >> that I exist versus something like an >> that I exist versus something like an >> that I exist versus something like an iPhone that has no evidence of a human iPhone that has no evidence of a human iPhone that has no evidence of a human being being there in any way including being being there in any way including being being there in any way including the software. That's its strength is its the software. That's its strength is its the software. That's its strength is its lack of humanity. lack of humanity. lack of humanity. >> The way I reflect upon your work is that >> The way I reflect upon your work is that >> The way I reflect upon your work is that it is as much about what you're trying it is as much about what you're trying it is as much about what you're trying to express through your art as it is to express through your art as it is to express through your art as it is about the art of living. Like I see you about the art of living. Like I see you about the art of living. Like I see you as almost this Verer Herzog of the art as almost this Verer Herzog of the art as almost this Verer Herzog of the art world who has a lot to say about the art world who has a lot to say about the art world who has a lot to say about the art of living. And you have a very uh sort of living. And you have a very uh sort of living. And you have a very uh sort of um specific you know cannon when it of um specific you know cannon when it of um specific you know cannon when it comes to how you live a principled life. comes to how you live a principled life. comes to how you live a principled life. How do you articulate your overarching How do you articulate your overarching How do you articulate your overarching life philosophy which is a big question I get. Well which is a big question I get. Well everything that will follow is laced everything that will follow is laced everything that will follow is laced with paradox. So on one side, with paradox. So on one side, with paradox. So on one side, I want the finished product to be the I want the finished product to be the I want the finished product to be the best thing it can be, best thing it can be, best thing it can be, but it's also important that the but it's also important that the but it's also important that the experience of making it be rewarding. I experience of making it be rewarding. I experience of making it be rewarding. I have a lot of friends like you who are have a lot of friends like you who are have a lot of friends like you who are professional athletes and and that's professional athletes and and that's professional athletes and and that's like a um apex like a um apex like a um apex lifestyle and engaging the flow state lifestyle and engaging the flow state lifestyle and engaging the flow state that the athletic flow state in my that the athletic flow state in my that the athletic flow state in my sculpture is something that I aspire to sculpture is something that I aspire to sculpture is something that I aspire to and I use all of my efforts to try and and I use all of my efforts to try and and I use all of my efforts to try and put myself into that position a place put myself into that position a place put myself into that position a place where time stands still and I'm only where time stands still and I'm only where time stands still and I'm only with the materials. with the materials. with the materials. Um and it takes a tremendous effort to Um and it takes a tremendous effort to Um and it takes a tremendous effort to get to that place and there's a lot of get to that place and there's a lot of get to that place and there's a lot of bureaucracy and mechan mechanisms to do bureaucracy and mechan mechanisms to do bureaucracy and mechan mechanisms to do that especially in sculpture because a that especially in sculpture because a that especially in sculpture because a sculpture just takes but a moment to sculpture just takes but a moment to sculpture just takes but a moment to conceive and then many many man hours to conceive and then many many man hours to conceive and then many many man hours to execute. execute. execute. >> That's why I really believe that you >> That's why I really believe that you >> That's why I really believe that you don't need a huge studio with don't need a huge studio with don't need a huge studio with assistance. All you need is a piece of assistance. All you need is a piece of assistance. All you need is a piece of paper and the just the right pencil. paper and the just the right pencil. paper and the just the right pencil. Pentel P209 Pentel P209 Pentel P209 because in drawing the idea happens the because in drawing the idea happens the because in drawing the idea happens the fastest. It's just it's instant. It's fastest. It's just it's instant. It's fastest. It's just it's instant. It's it's the fastest possible way and it's the fastest possible way and it's the fastest possible way and including Photoshop and Procreate and including Photoshop and Procreate and including Photoshop and Procreate and any digital medium or maybe words any digital medium or maybe words any digital medium or maybe words depending on what the idea is. So my depending on what the idea is. So my depending on what the idea is. So my goal is just to get as much time and go goal is just to get as much time and go goal is just to get as much time and go as deep as I can into like the raw as deep as I can into like the raw as deep as I can into like the raw sensuality of making stuff. sensuality of making stuff. sensuality of making stuff. Also, Also, Also, it doesn't mean [ __ ] without a good it doesn't mean [ __ ] without a good it doesn't mean [ __ ] without a good idea, right? So there is conceptualizing idea, right? So there is conceptualizing idea, right? So there is conceptualizing it and the discipline of the ideas it and the discipline of the ideas it and the discipline of the ideas behind it and making something that behind it and making something that behind it and making something that resonates first with me resonates first with me resonates first with me >> and then if I'm lucky it resonates with >> and then if I'm lucky it resonates with >> and then if I'm lucky it resonates with the people around me and in my studio, the people around me and in my studio, the people around me and in my studio, my family and friends and and then the my family and friends and and then the my family and friends and and then the people who are paying attention enough people who are paying attention enough people who are paying attention enough to this podcast that are listening and to this podcast that are listening and to this podcast that are listening and aren't clicking away and the sphere of aren't clicking away and the sphere of aren't clicking away and the sphere of influence expands farther and be maybe influence expands farther and be maybe influence expands farther and be maybe perhaps becomes less intense as it gets perhaps becomes less intense as it gets perhaps becomes less intense as it gets farther from the core. But as long as farther from the core. But as long as farther from the core. But as long as the intent is authentic and direct, it's the intent is authentic and direct, it's the intent is authentic and direct, it's hard to bungle a good idea. hard to bungle a good idea. hard to bungle a good idea. >> Yeah. Among the paradoxes are it's it's >> Yeah. Among the paradoxes are it's it's >> Yeah. Among the paradoxes are it's it's sort of a Zen Cohen. Like on the one sort of a Zen Cohen. Like on the one sort of a Zen Cohen. Like on the one hand, you have to have this very hand, you have to have this very hand, you have to have this very bluecollar workmanship attitude about bluecollar workmanship attitude about bluecollar workmanship attitude about the thing that you do. You show up and the thing that you do. You show up and the thing that you do. You show up and you do it. You show up on time. You have you do it. You show up on time. You have you do it. You show up on time. You have an organized workspace. You treat it as an organized workspace. You treat it as an organized workspace. You treat it as something that is almost sacred. And yet something that is almost sacred. And yet something that is almost sacred. And yet at the same time in order to be able to at the same time in order to be able to at the same time in order to be able to uh you know kind of fulfill your uh you know kind of fulfill your uh you know kind of fulfill your potential and say the things that you potential and say the things that you potential and say the things that you want to say you have to make room and want to say you have to make room and want to say you have to make room and space to engage with the unconscious you space to engage with the unconscious you space to engage with the unconscious you know with the organic world and the know with the organic world and the know with the organic world and the messiness of the other aspects of life messiness of the other aspects of life messiness of the other aspects of life that ultimately are informing the that ultimately are informing the that ultimately are informing the expression that is you know kind of expression that is you know kind of expression that is you know kind of downstream of the workmanship aspect of downstream of the workmanship aspect of downstream of the workmanship aspect of what you do. what you do. what you do. >> Yeah. So, if you ask any of the people >> Yeah. So, if you ask any of the people >> Yeah. So, if you ask any of the people close to me, they'll tell you that I close to me, they'll tell you that I close to me, they'll tell you that I really into the idea of being on time, really into the idea of being on time, really into the idea of being on time, yet I'm late all the time. yet I'm late all the time. yet I'm late all the time. >> Uhhuh. >> Uhhuh. >> Uhhuh. >> And that's a ongoing struggle because I >> And that's a ongoing struggle because I >> And that's a ongoing struggle because I think there's no excuse for being late. think there's no excuse for being late. think there's no excuse for being late. It's it's completely rude and It's it's completely rude and It's it's completely rude and disrespectful. disrespectful. disrespectful. The times that I'm late are because I The times that I'm late are because I The times that I'm late are because I have completely immersed myself in the have completely immersed myself in the have completely immersed myself in the process and process and process and have gone into a different dimension have gone into a different dimension have gone into a different dimension when time where time doesn't exist and I when time where time doesn't exist and I when time where time doesn't exist and I forget that's not an excuse or an forget that's not an excuse or an forget that's not an excuse or an explanation but that is the paradox explanation but that is the paradox explanation but that is the paradox right between completely right between completely right between completely submitting to the subconscious submitting to the subconscious submitting to the subconscious mind and not worrying about time which mind and not worrying about time which mind and not worrying about time which is important to do and is important to do and is important to do and being on time to change diapers and do being on time to change diapers and do being on time to change diapers and do all the things we have to do in our all the things we have to do in our all the things we have to do in our lives. lives. lives. >> It's a great paradox, >> It's a great paradox, >> It's a great paradox, >> but >> but >> but an artist's best work lies beyond their an artist's best work lies beyond their an artist's best work lies beyond their ability to understand it. So we must ability to understand it. So we must ability to understand it. So we must constantly make huge efforts to engage constantly make huge efforts to engage constantly make huge efforts to engage our subconscious mind and put our subconscious mind and put our subconscious mind and put bills and bookkeeping and feeding your bills and bookkeeping and feeding your bills and bookkeeping and feeding your body and all the responsibilities out of body and all the responsibilities out of body and all the responsibilities out of your mind so that you can connect with your mind so that you can connect with your mind so that you can connect with your intuition. your intuition. your intuition. And um because only through connecting And um because only through connecting And um because only through connecting with our intuition and trusting oursel with our intuition and trusting oursel with our intuition and trusting oursel can we have the courage to make just the can we have the courage to make just the can we have the courage to make just the right wrong decisions because that's right wrong decisions because that's right wrong decisions because that's where where the ideas in art really lie. where where the ideas in art really lie. where where the ideas in art really lie. I mean if it was just engineering I mean if it was just engineering I mean if it was just engineering but even that even in engineering but even that even in engineering but even that even in engineering there's incredible innovation and ideas there's incredible innovation and ideas there's incredible innovation and ideas that don't exist. People come up with that don't exist. People come up with that don't exist. People come up with things all the time. the right kind of things all the time. the right kind of things all the time. the right kind of crazy just the the just the right wrong crazy just the the just the right wrong crazy just the the just the right wrong thing. thing. thing. But this is why I practice output before But this is why I practice output before But this is why I practice output before input every day. So before looking at my input every day. So before looking at my input every day. So before looking at my phone every morning like everyone else phone every morning like everyone else phone every morning like everyone else cuz I'm completely addicted. cuz I'm completely addicted. cuz I'm completely addicted. Where is it? It's over there. I'm Where is it? It's over there. I'm Where is it? It's over there. I'm nervous about it. nervous about it. nervous about it. >> I know, right? Be waiting for you. >> I know, right? Be waiting for you. >> I know, right? Be waiting for you. >> Thank you. Um with needs. Um before >> Thank you. Um with needs. Um before >> Thank you. Um with needs. Um before looking at my phone every day, I do looking at my phone every day, I do looking at my phone every day, I do output which is touch clay, write in my output which is touch clay, write in my output which is touch clay, write in my journal, draw journal, draw journal, draw something where uh the thoughts come out something where uh the thoughts come out something where uh the thoughts come out of my mind through my hands on to paper of my mind through my hands on to paper of my mind through my hands on to paper or clay or something. And the reason I or clay or something. And the reason I or clay or something. And the reason I do that is because every day do that is because every day do that is because every day we have a we have a we have a psychedelic experience that's deep and psychedelic experience that's deep and psychedelic experience that's deep and profound followed by immediate amnesia profound followed by immediate amnesia profound followed by immediate amnesia and that's called our dream state sleep. and that's called our dream state sleep. and that's called our dream state sleep. That's the place where our subconscious That's the place where our subconscious That's the place where our subconscious mind makes sense of the nonsense of our mind makes sense of the nonsense of our mind makes sense of the nonsense of our regular day. There are even some regular day. There are even some regular day. There are even some cultures that believe that the dream is cultures that believe that the dream is cultures that believe that the dream is the real life and our waking waking time the real life and our waking waking time the real life and our waking waking time is the subordinated state. is the subordinated state. is the subordinated state. The The The truths that come through our dreams help truths that come through our dreams help truths that come through our dreams help us make sense of the insanity of our us make sense of the insanity of our us make sense of the insanity of our everyday lives. When we think about the everyday lives. When we think about the everyday lives. When we think about the wonderful and horrible things that wonderful and horrible things that wonderful and horrible things that happen to us every day, there's no way happen to us every day, there's no way happen to us every day, there's no way to explain it. Why do you know why does to explain it. Why do you know why does to explain it. Why do you know why does God let bad things happen to good people God let bad things happen to good people God let bad things happen to good people and good things happen to bad people? We and good things happen to bad people? We and good things happen to bad people? We live in a world of this. So our dream live in a world of this. So our dream live in a world of this. So our dream state is what makes how we make sense of state is what makes how we make sense of state is what makes how we make sense of it or we have some problem about some it or we have some problem about some it or we have some problem about some interpersonal thing and our dreams tell interpersonal thing and our dreams tell interpersonal thing and our dreams tell us the truth. Anyway, my strategy always us the truth. Anyway, my strategy always us the truth. Anyway, my strategy always is to immediately access my subconscious is to immediately access my subconscious is to immediately access my subconscious mind upon waking, even if I'm doing mind upon waking, even if I'm doing mind upon waking, even if I'm doing something as non-intellectual as something as non-intellectual as something as non-intellectual as touching clay, so that I have a touching clay, so that I have a touching clay, so that I have a connection with that. connection with that. connection with that. >> Sure as [ __ ] email, Instagram, >> Sure as [ __ ] email, Instagram, >> Sure as [ __ ] email, Instagram, even online shopping, whatever, it'll even online shopping, whatever, it'll even online shopping, whatever, it'll all come into my day. It's unavoidable. all come into my day. It's unavoidable. all come into my day. It's unavoidable. But to take a moment to just even mark But to take a moment to just even mark But to take a moment to just even mark with your pencil an X on a piece of with your pencil an X on a piece of with your pencil an X on a piece of paper tells me that for even a moment paper tells me that for even a moment paper tells me that for even a moment I'm better than my device. I can have I'm better than my device. I can have I'm better than my device. I can have the discipline that I exist without this the discipline that I exist without this the discipline that I exist without this thing. Um thing. Um thing. Um because it's definitely the phone because it's definitely the phone because it's definitely the phone doesn't help my art in any way. It's a doesn't help my art in any way. It's a doesn't help my art in any way. It's a tool like anything else and it's the tool like anything else and it's the tool like anything else and it's the best tool ever. I use mine for scraping best tool ever. I use mine for scraping best tool ever. I use mine for scraping paint. I love that iPhone that had the paint. I love that iPhone that had the paint. I love that iPhone that had the edge on it. The new ones, you can't edge on it. The new ones, you can't edge on it. The new ones, you can't scrape paint as well. You know, it's scrape paint as well. You know, it's scrape paint as well. You know, it's definitely a hammer. definitely a hammer. definitely a hammer. >> Always looking for the utility, the >> Always looking for the utility, the >> Always looking for the utility, the hidden utility in in in an object. hidden utility in in in an object. hidden utility in in in an object. >> Well, like Adam Savage says, with within >> Well, like Adam Savage says, with within >> Well, like Adam Savage says, with within every tool, there's a hammer. every tool, there's a hammer. every tool, there's a hammer. >> Yeah. Given that your livelihood is, you >> Yeah. Given that your livelihood is, you >> Yeah. Given that your livelihood is, you know, contingent upon the health of your know, contingent upon the health of your know, contingent upon the health of your imagination and your relationship with imagination and your relationship with imagination and your relationship with your unconscious, how can you uh, you your unconscious, how can you uh, you your unconscious, how can you uh, you know, delineate the the importance of know, delineate the the importance of know, delineate the the importance of that for the average person who isn't that for the average person who isn't that for the average person who isn't living the artist life? living the artist life? living the artist life? >> I I think it's a good time in this >> I I think it's a good time in this >> I I think it's a good time in this conversation to debunk the myth that I'm conversation to debunk the myth that I'm conversation to debunk the myth that I'm different, that I'm different from different, that I'm different from different, that I'm different from everyone else. These are the we all have everyone else. These are the we all have everyone else. These are the we all have these these are universal problems. these these are universal problems. these these are universal problems. Artists do not have a corner on Artists do not have a corner on Artists do not have a corner on creativity. My lawyer is more creative creativity. My lawyer is more creative creativity. My lawyer is more creative than most artists that I know. Um I know than most artists that I know. Um I know than most artists that I know. Um I know plenty of artists that are not creative plenty of artists that are not creative plenty of artists that are not creative at all. They're just really persistent at all. They're just really persistent at all. They're just really persistent and that's a form of art too. I think and that's a form of art too. I think and that's a form of art too. I think these strategies that we use in the these strategies that we use in the these strategies that we use in the studio are universal. Um output before studio are universal. Um output before studio are universal. Um output before input works on everyone because we all input works on everyone because we all input works on everyone because we all have problems to solve. We all have have problems to solve. We all have have problems to solve. We all have inspiration. We all have dreams. We all inspiration. We all have dreams. We all inspiration. We all have dreams. We all have nightmares. We all have goals. Some have nightmares. We all have goals. Some have nightmares. We all have goals. Some of them are met and some aren't. And the of them are met and some aren't. And the of them are met and some aren't. And the strategies are universal. Um I think the strategies are universal. Um I think the strategies are universal. Um I think the reason why people look to artists be is reason why people look to artists be is reason why people look to artists be is because what they do is so crazy and because what they do is so crazy and because what they do is so crazy and doesn't fit. It's so nonconforming. doesn't fit. It's so nonconforming. doesn't fit. It's so nonconforming. So you look at a piece of art and you're So you look at a piece of art and you're So you look at a piece of art and you're like, "Wow, this person, Heronimous like, "Wow, this person, Heronimous like, "Wow, this person, Heronimous Bosch, did this insane painting of all Bosch, did this insane painting of all Bosch, did this insane painting of all these crazy things. It's really these crazy things. It's really these crazy things. It's really inspirational." inspirational." inspirational." But it's no different from anybody else. But it's no different from anybody else. But it's no different from anybody else. We've all got problems to solve. We've all got problems to solve. We've all got problems to solve. >> I 100% believe that we're all creative >> I 100% believe that we're all creative >> I 100% believe that we're all creative beings. And I think in our beings. And I think in our beings. And I think in our um human proclivity to categorize people um human proclivity to categorize people um human proclivity to categorize people and um set ourselves apart from other and um set ourselves apart from other and um set ourselves apart from other people. This is something that happens a people. This is something that happens a people. This is something that happens a lot with artists. It's like those are lot with artists. It's like those are lot with artists. It's like those are those people. They were born special. those people. They were born special. those people. They were born special. they have a different relationship uh to they have a different relationship uh to they have a different relationship uh to the world. Um, and we can we can admire the world. Um, and we can we can admire the world. Um, and we can we can admire their work and respect their work and go their work and respect their work and go their work and respect their work and go to museums and see it, but you know, to museums and see it, but you know, to museums and see it, but you know, they're not like me. And they're not like me. And they're not like me. And >> I think I've had many people on the show >> I think I've had many people on the show >> I think I've had many people on the show over the years who have, you know, done over the years who have, you know, done over the years who have, you know, done their best to disabuse, you know, us of their best to disabuse, you know, us of their best to disabuse, you know, us of that idea. And yet, it's a pretty that idea. And yet, it's a pretty that idea. And yet, it's a pretty intrigent kind of like notion that like intrigent kind of like notion that like intrigent kind of like notion that like your life is so different from ours. your life is so different from ours. your life is so different from ours. like what can we glean from how you see like what can we glean from how you see like what can we glean from how you see the world that would be applicable to the world that would be applicable to the world that would be applicable to ours and what you're saying is ours and what you're saying is ours and what you're saying is essentially like no it's it's no essentially like no it's it's no essentially like no it's it's no different I've created a career out of different I've created a career out of different I've created a career out of it or a profession out of it but we it or a profession out of it but we it or a profession out of it but we would all benefit from you know kind of would all benefit from you know kind of would all benefit from you know kind of uh nourishing ourselves in this same way uh nourishing ourselves in this same way uh nourishing ourselves in this same way irrespective of whether you work in a irrespective of whether you work in a irrespective of whether you work in a cubicle at an insurance company or you cubicle at an insurance company or you cubicle at an insurance company or you go to a studio like you do every day and go to a studio like you do every day and go to a studio like you do every day and you know screw things together and you you know screw things together and you you know screw things together and you know saw wood and assemble know saw wood and assemble know saw wood and assemble >> these pieces. >> these pieces. >> these pieces. >> Isn't it a lot like regular people and >> Isn't it a lot like regular people and >> Isn't it a lot like regular people and professional athletes, right? Like professional athletes, right? Like professional athletes, right? Like you're a professional athlete. you're a professional athlete. you're a professional athlete. >> Not really. No. >> Not really. No. >> Not really. No. >> Wait, how do you say that? >> Wait, how do you say that? >> Wait, how do you say that? >> I don't even know. No, I'm definitely >> I don't even know. No, I'm definitely >> I don't even know. No, I'm definitely not a professional athlete. not a professional athlete. not a professional athlete. >> Ultra marathon. >> Ultra marathon. >> Ultra marathon. >> Professional podcaster at this point. >> Professional podcaster at this point. >> Professional podcaster at this point. >> Well, but you've achieved elite status >> Well, but you've achieved elite status >> Well, but you've achieved elite status in your athletics and you pursue and in your athletics and you pursue and in your athletics and you pursue and continue to pursue it. continue to pursue it. continue to pursue it. >> Sure. But if you read Finding Ultra, you >> Sure. But if you read Finding Ultra, you >> Sure. But if you read Finding Ultra, you know, like I, you know, I'm constantly know, like I, you know, I'm constantly know, like I, you know, I'm constantly banging on about the fact that like I banging on about the fact that like I banging on about the fact that like I don't think that I'm particularly don't think that I'm particularly don't think that I'm particularly talented at all as an athlete. If there talented at all as an athlete. If there talented at all as an athlete. If there is, uh, you know, a kind of attribute is, uh, you know, a kind of attribute is, uh, you know, a kind of attribute that that I've taken advantage of that that that I've taken advantage of that that that I've taken advantage of that that allowed me to succeed in that that allowed me to succeed in that that allowed me to succeed in that realm, it's a certain degree of realm, it's a certain degree of realm, it's a certain degree of obsessiveness. But it's not talent. obsessiveness. But it's not talent. obsessiveness. But it's not talent. >> But talent is talent is a is an over is >> But talent is talent is a is an over is >> But talent is talent is a is an over is totally overrated. It's all about totally overrated. It's all about totally overrated. It's all about persistence. It's like you don't need to persistence. It's like you don't need to persistence. It's like you don't need to be talented to be a great artist or be talented to be a great artist or be talented to be a great artist or athlete. You just have to show up. I athlete. You just have to show up. I athlete. You just have to show up. I mean, talent is one of the attributes mean, talent is one of the attributes mean, talent is one of the attributes and one of the qualities, but if you and one of the qualities, but if you and one of the qualities, but if you look at like an artist like Richard look at like an artist like Richard look at like an artist like Richard Sarah, it doesn't scream talent. It Sarah, it doesn't scream talent. It Sarah, it doesn't scream talent. It screams tenacity and courage and screams tenacity and courage and screams tenacity and courage and domination and large s, but you don't domination and large s, but you don't domination and large s, but you don't that's not the first word that comes. I that's not the first word that comes. I that's not the first word that comes. I mean, he in fact was also talented, but mean, he in fact was also talented, but mean, he in fact was also talented, but it kind of doesn't matter. What matters it kind of doesn't matter. What matters it kind of doesn't matter. What matters is uh persistence and when you do an is uh persistence and when you do an is uh persistence and when you do an ultra marathon which is the craze you ultra marathon which is the craze you ultra marathon which is the craze you must hate yourself so much in order to must hate yourself so much in order to must hate yourself so much in order to do that. do that. do that. >> That's but that's not true either. Like >> That's but that's not true either. Like >> That's but that's not true either. Like there's a joy to it you know there's a joy to it you know there's a joy to it you know >> there's a joy of indulging your >> there's a joy of indulging your >> there's a joy of indulging your obsessive you know tendencies and seeing obsessive you know tendencies and seeing obsessive you know tendencies and seeing where they will take you. It's not a where they will take you. It's not a where they will take you. It's not a sustainable strategy for life, but in sustainable strategy for life, but in sustainable strategy for life, but in temporary doses, you you can, you know, temporary doses, you you can, you know, temporary doses, you you can, you know, discover the outer edge of your your discover the outer edge of your your discover the outer edge of your your potential and capabilities, and that's a potential and capabilities, and that's a potential and capabilities, and that's a beautiful thing. beautiful thing. beautiful thing. >> That's art to me. That's exactly what >> That's art to me. That's exactly what >> That's art to me. That's exactly what art is. The outer edge of your art is. The outer edge of your art is. The outer edge of your capabilities. That defines it better capabilities. That defines it better capabilities. That defines it better than anything I've ever heard. than anything I've ever heard. than anything I've ever heard. >> Do you think that you uh have to be on >> Do you think that you uh have to be on >> Do you think that you uh have to be on some level an obsessive personality to some level an obsessive personality to some level an obsessive personality to achieve great things? Because when I I achieve great things? Because when I I achieve great things? Because when I I think about you and your work like there think about you and your work like there think about you and your work like there is an obsession aspect to is an obsession aspect to is an obsession aspect to >> uh your your relationship with what you >> uh your your relationship with what you >> uh your your relationship with what you do like there is an obsessiveness and do like there is an obsessiveness and do like there is an obsessiveness and within that there's also like an within that there's also like an within that there's also like an objective sense of like what is right objective sense of like what is right objective sense of like what is right like you pulled out your pencil like like you pulled out your pencil like like you pulled out your pencil like this is the p like objectively this is this is the p like objectively this is this is the p like objectively this is the best pencil and if you're going to the best pencil and if you're going to the best pencil and if you're going to do this this is the way you do it. There do this this is the way you do it. There do this this is the way you do it. There are rules, right, that are kind of like are rules, right, that are kind of like are rules, right, that are kind of like locked in. And you have the ability to locked in. And you have the ability to locked in. And you have the ability to put these blinders on and apply these put these blinders on and apply these put these blinders on and apply these rules in a certain way that has allowed rules in a certain way that has allowed rules in a certain way that has allowed you to persevere over many years. But is you to persevere over many years. But is you to persevere over many years. But is that a necessity? that a necessity? that a necessity? Well, it's something that works for me. Well, it's something that works for me. Well, it's something that works for me. I don't know if it's if it's for I don't know if it's if it's for I don't know if it's if it's for everyone. And I think everyone. And I think everyone. And I think the thing that's maybe most valuable to the thing that's maybe most valuable to the thing that's maybe most valuable to come away from this podcast or reading come away from this podcast or reading come away from this podcast or reading Finding Ultra or reading the reading the Finding Ultra or reading the reading the Finding Ultra or reading the reading the Tom Sachs guide is or any self-help Tom Sachs guide is or any self-help Tom Sachs guide is or any self-help book, not that they're strictly book, not that they're strictly book, not that they're strictly self-help books, is that you're seeing self-help books, is that you're seeing self-help books, is that you're seeing the author's perspective. Um I love the author's perspective. Um I love the author's perspective. Um I love self-help books, but they're all whether self-help books, but they're all whether self-help books, but they're all whether it's like Dale Carnegie or um my it's like Dale Carnegie or um my it's like Dale Carnegie or um my favorite is Uncle Bumble [ __ ] which is favorite is Uncle Bumble [ __ ] which is favorite is Uncle Bumble [ __ ] which is AV Analog Versus Arduino. He's my AV Analog Versus Arduino. He's my AV Analog Versus Arduino. He's my favorite um podcaster. He does favorite um podcaster. He does favorite um podcaster. He does breakdowns of machines breakdowns of machines breakdowns of machines >> and he's the smartest idiot on the >> and he's the smartest idiot on the >> and he's the smartest idiot on the internet who does he's a probably by internet who does he's a probably by internet who does he's a probably by trade he's a um hydraulic engineer for trade he's a um hydraulic engineer for trade he's a um hydraulic engineer for construction equipment construction equipment construction equipment >> who flies around the world fixing big >> who flies around the world fixing big >> who flies around the world fixing big machines but you'll never see his face. machines but you'll never see his face. machines but you'll never see his face. You only see his hands and his voice. He You only see his hands and his voice. He You only see his hands and his voice. He lives in Canada and he does this there's lives in Canada and he does this there's lives in Canada and he does this there's one self-help episode and he says really one self-help episode and he says really one self-help episode and he says really clearly all self-help books are the clearly all self-help books are the clearly all self-help books are the same. Pick one and stick with it or same. Pick one and stick with it or same. Pick one and stick with it or write your own. write your own. write your own. >> Um it's all about finding your >> Um it's all about finding your >> Um it's all about finding your discipline. I don't think that discipline. I don't think that discipline. I don't think that creativity or obsessiveness creativity or obsessiveness creativity or obsessiveness are the only ways for me. I don't know are the only ways for me. I don't know are the only ways for me. I don't know how to define obsessiveness, but I will how to define obsessiveness, but I will how to define obsessiveness, but I will say this. One of the strategies, one of say this. One of the strategies, one of say this. One of the strategies, one of like the 30 things that I do is before like the 30 things that I do is before like the 30 things that I do is before going to sleep at night, going to sleep at night, going to sleep at night, I dream. I meditate into my I dream. I meditate into my I dream. I meditate into my subconscious, into my sleep about what subconscious, into my sleep about what subconscious, into my sleep about what I'm going to do tomorrow. And that lulls I'm going to do tomorrow. And that lulls I'm going to do tomorrow. And that lulls me to sleep really quickly and I I get me to sleep really quickly and I I get me to sleep really quickly and I I get excited about the kind of the next moves excited about the kind of the next moves excited about the kind of the next moves I'm going to make in my sculpture the I'm going to make in my sculpture the I'm going to make in my sculpture the next day. And that is something that I next day. And that is something that I next day. And that is something that I love to do and it feeds me love to do and it feeds me love to do and it feeds me um emotionally and sets the goal for the um emotionally and sets the goal for the um emotionally and sets the goal for the next day. And sometimes if I'm lucky and next day. And sometimes if I'm lucky and next day. And sometimes if I'm lucky and things go well, I wake up excited to do things go well, I wake up excited to do things go well, I wake up excited to do that thing and not always. How do you that thing and not always. How do you that thing and not always. How do you make sure that your obsessiveness make sure that your obsessiveness make sure that your obsessiveness doesn't start to infect the other doesn't start to infect the other doesn't start to infect the other aspects of your life that are important aspects of your life that are important aspects of your life that are important in negative ways? in negative ways? in negative ways? >> Well, I mean, I told you the story about >> Well, I mean, I told you the story about >> Well, I mean, I told you the story about being late, right? So, so that's a that being late, right? So, so that's a that being late, right? So, so that's a that is a way that it's negative. Uh I'm 59. is a way that it's negative. Uh I'm 59. is a way that it's negative. Uh I'm 59. I've got two kids, same age. I've got two kids, same age. I've got two kids, same age. >> I have forever a sense of inadequacy now >> I have forever a sense of inadequacy now >> I have forever a sense of inadequacy now with kids because I'm never enough of a with kids because I'm never enough of a with kids because I'm never enough of a there enough time for my children. never there enough time for my children. never there enough time for my children. never enough time for my studio. There's never enough time for my studio. There's never enough time for my studio. There's never enough time for the dentist and the enough time for the dentist and the enough time for the dentist and the haircut and and like getting the uh cat haircut and and like getting the uh cat haircut and and like getting the uh cat scan of my lungs that I I'm supposed to scan of my lungs that I I'm supposed to scan of my lungs that I I'm supposed to do at this age and the colonoscopy and do at this age and the colonoscopy and do at this age and the colonoscopy and the getting my haircut and going to the the getting my haircut and going to the the getting my haircut and going to the dentist and going to the Mayo Clinic to dentist and going to the Mayo Clinic to dentist and going to the Mayo Clinic to make sure that like everything's going make sure that like everything's going make sure that like everything's going to be as good as it can be for as long to be as good as it can be for as long to be as good as it can be for as long as it can be and all the insane as it can be and all the insane as it can be and all the insane opportunities that we have in our lives. opportunities that we have in our lives. opportunities that we have in our lives. Um, Um, Um, I just think that there there's no way I just think that there there's no way I just think that there there's no way to win that. There's always something to win that. There's always something to win that. There's always something that gets left off the edge. And I think that gets left off the edge. And I think that gets left off the edge. And I think this is maybe the part of the this is maybe the part of the this is maybe the part of the conversation where I don't really know conversation where I don't really know conversation where I don't really know the answer, but I think it lies the answer, but I think it lies the answer, but I think it lies somewhere in picking your battles and somewhere in picking your battles and somewhere in picking your battles and finding a sense of balance of what's finding a sense of balance of what's finding a sense of balance of what's important. And there's no nothing's important. And there's no nothing's important. And there's no nothing's perfect. perfect. perfect. >> Our youngest goes to school about a >> Our youngest goes to school about a >> Our youngest goes to school about a three-hour drive from our home in this three-hour drive from our home in this three-hour drive from our home in this tiny little town up high in the tiny little town up high in the tiny little town up high in the mountains. So, when we drive her back to mountains. So, when we drive her back to mountains. So, when we drive her back to school or we pick her up for a break, we school or we pick her up for a break, we school or we pick her up for a break, we could do the drive back and forth in the could do the drive back and forth in the could do the drive back and forth in the same day. But sometimes I like to stay same day. But sometimes I like to stay same day. But sometimes I like to stay up in the mountains for a day or two, up in the mountains for a day or two, up in the mountains for a day or two, either before I pick her up or after I either before I pick her up or after I either before I pick her up or after I drop her off, just to change my drop her off, just to change my drop her off, just to change my environment, connect with nature, do a environment, connect with nature, do a environment, connect with nature, do a little bit of writing and reflection and little bit of writing and reflection and little bit of writing and reflection and peace and quiet. And what's great about peace and quiet. And what's great about peace and quiet. And what's great about this little town is that there are all this little town is that there are all this little town is that there are all these fantastic little cozy wooden these fantastic little cozy wooden these fantastic little cozy wooden A-frame homes hidden in the woods to A-frame homes hidden in the woods to A-frame homes hidden in the woods to choose from that I can book easily on choose from that I can book easily on choose from that I can book easily on Airbnb that make for this perfect little Airbnb that make for this perfect little Airbnb that make for this perfect little retreat. I love the livedin authenticity retreat. I love the livedin authenticity retreat. I love the livedin authenticity of these experiences. And it occurred to of these experiences. And it occurred to of these experiences. And it occurred to me that I could actually provide that me that I could actually provide that me that I could actually provide that for someone else. 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I want to talk about how you got I want to talk about how you got interested in consumerism and interested in consumerism and interested in consumerism and uh like aspirational brand iconography uh like aspirational brand iconography uh like aspirational brand iconography as like your kind of tableau. Like as like your kind of tableau. Like as like your kind of tableau. Like everything speaks to everything speaks to everything speaks to >> uh our cultural relationship with >> uh our cultural relationship with >> uh our cultural relationship with consumerism and these you know consumerism and these you know consumerism and these you know ubiquitous brands that we all know and ubiquitous brands that we all know and ubiquitous brands that we all know and trying to say something very specific trying to say something very specific trying to say something very specific about what that relationship means. But about what that relationship means. But about what that relationship means. But you know what's the origin story? Like you know what's the origin story? Like you know what's the origin story? Like how did you get interested in this as how did you get interested in this as how did you get interested in this as your subject matter your subject matter your subject matter as a child? The uh the religious as a child? The uh the religious as a child? The uh the religious experience of my family was consumerism experience of my family was consumerism experience of my family was consumerism around I grew up in Westport, around I grew up in Westport, around I grew up in Westport, Connecticut, an affluent suburb of New Connecticut, an affluent suburb of New Connecticut, an affluent suburb of New York City. And the dinnertime York City. And the dinnertime York City. And the dinnertime conversation was conversation was conversation was mom's new mom's new mom's new Laura Ashley dress, dad's new used BMW. Laura Ashley dress, dad's new used BMW. Laura Ashley dress, dad's new used BMW. If I mowed the lawn enough, I could save If I mowed the lawn enough, I could save If I mowed the lawn enough, I could save up my allowance and buy a pair of Nike up my allowance and buy a pair of Nike up my allowance and buy a pair of Nike waffle trainers. That movie American waffle trainers. That movie American waffle trainers. That movie American Jigalow had just come out and there was Jigalow had just come out and there was Jigalow had just come out and there was a this uh fashion designer, this a this uh fashion designer, this a this uh fashion designer, this relatively unknown fashion designer relatively unknown fashion designer relatively unknown fashion designer named Giorgio Armani made these clothes named Giorgio Armani made these clothes named Giorgio Armani made these clothes for that Richard Gear wore. And there for that Richard Gear wore. And there for that Richard Gear wore. And there were these elaborate shots of his closet were these elaborate shots of his closet were these elaborate shots of his closet in Beverly Hills. And people like my in Beverly Hills. And people like my in Beverly Hills. And people like my father who wanted who aspired to be like father who wanted who aspired to be like father who wanted who aspired to be like Richard Gear and American Jigalow took Richard Gear and American Jigalow took Richard Gear and American Jigalow took the train in from Manhattan to Barney's the train in from Manhattan to Barney's the train in from Manhattan to Barney's New York and bought Giorgio Armani New York and bought Giorgio Armani New York and bought Giorgio Armani clothes and Georgio Armani became a clothes and Georgio Armani became a clothes and Georgio Armani became a gigantic international brand gigantic international brand gigantic international brand and the aspiration of the Mercedes SL and the aspiration of the Mercedes SL and the aspiration of the Mercedes SL convertible that he drove and the whole convertible that he drove and the whole convertible that he drove and the whole style was was for that generation a real style was was for that generation a real style was was for that generation a real um icon of what became Yepy culture like um icon of what became Yepy culture like um icon of what became Yepy culture like the ultimate Yepy uniform in the whole the ultimate Yepy uniform in the whole the ultimate Yepy uniform in the whole style. style. style. and who's sexier than Richard Gear to and who's sexier than Richard Gear to and who's sexier than Richard Gear to represent those values of decadence and represent those values of decadence and represent those values of decadence and glamour and murder and intrigue and all glamour and murder and intrigue and all glamour and murder and intrigue and all of that stuff. So that was kind of where of that stuff. So that was kind of where of that stuff. So that was kind of where I came from. And then shortly after in I came from. And then shortly after in I came from. And then shortly after in 1984, I was exposed to really the only 1984, I was exposed to really the only 1984, I was exposed to really the only grassroots art movement that I've been grassroots art movement that I've been grassroots art movement that I've been really connected with. Well, at the time really connected with. Well, at the time really connected with. Well, at the time was the American hardcore punk scene was the American hardcore punk scene was the American hardcore punk scene >> which was very anti-consumerist and the >> which was very anti-consumerist and the >> which was very anti-consumerist and the values of like the dead Kennedys perhaps values of like the dead Kennedys perhaps values of like the dead Kennedys perhaps were the most in impactful about um were the most in impactful about um were the most in impactful about um issuing consumerism and issuing the idea issuing consumerism and issuing the idea issuing consumerism and issuing the idea of finding our identity through our of finding our identity through our of finding our identity through our consumer products. um followed by you consumer products. um followed by you consumer products. um followed by you know liberal arts education and Marxism know liberal arts education and Marxism know liberal arts education and Marxism and so it kind of wo broke both back and and so it kind of wo broke both back and and so it kind of wo broke both back and forth where I would find my identity forth where I would find my identity forth where I would find my identity with a kind of labels on the my skis and with a kind of labels on the my skis and with a kind of labels on the my skis and skateboards and stuff because it was skateboards and stuff because it was skateboards and stuff because it was aspirational. you wanted a pair of um aspirational. you wanted a pair of um aspirational. you wanted a pair of um sneakers so you could play basketball sneakers so you could play basketball sneakers so you could play basketball like Michael Jordan or a skateboard so like Michael Jordan or a skateboard so like Michael Jordan or a skateboard so you could skate like Mark Gonzalez and you could skate like Mark Gonzalez and you could skate like Mark Gonzalez and you'd want to get those as it's called you'd want to get those as it's called you'd want to get those as it's called the associated value you know the the the associated value you know the the the associated value you know the the clothes of Richard Gear the the clothes of Richard Gear the the clothes of Richard Gear the the wristwatch of James Bond and and then wristwatch of James Bond and and then wristwatch of James Bond and and then rejecting all of that and then sort of rejecting all of that and then sort of rejecting all of that and then sort of finding my way finding my way finding my way back in New York City around the time back in New York City around the time back in New York City around the time that you moved there like 89 91 that you moved there like 89 91 that you moved there like 89 91 um working at Barney's New York as a um working at Barney's New York as a um working at Barney's New York as a window display artist, window display artist, window display artist, wearing punk clothing, wearing punk clothing, wearing punk clothing, being exposed to seeing the beauty of being exposed to seeing the beauty of being exposed to seeing the beauty of Hermes and Chanel and Margella and Hermes and Chanel and Margella and Hermes and Chanel and Margella and seeing like virtue and those things and seeing like virtue and those things and seeing like virtue and those things and even seeing I remember being really even seeing I remember being really even seeing I remember being really confused going to the Steven Sprouse confused going to the Steven Sprouse confused going to the Steven Sprouse Boutique in Soho on Green Street and Boutique in Soho on Green Street and Boutique in Soho on Green Street and watching a video of the Minutemen watching a video of the Minutemen watching a video of the Minutemen who were wearing flannel shirts that who were wearing flannel shirts that who were wearing flannel shirts that they'd bought in the thrift shop just they'd bought in the thrift shop just they'd bought in the thrift shop just like I was wearing in that moment, but like I was wearing in that moment, but like I was wearing in that moment, but then seeing a $600 flannel shirt and I then seeing a $600 flannel shirt and I then seeing a $600 flannel shirt and I didn't I was really confused and it took didn't I was really confused and it took didn't I was really confused and it took me years to kind of unpack that. But um me years to kind of unpack that. But um me years to kind of unpack that. But um I didn't understand that that was I didn't understand that that was I didn't understand that that was cultural appropriation cultural appropriation cultural appropriation >> that Steven Sprouse was stealing the >> that Steven Sprouse was stealing the >> that Steven Sprouse was stealing the cool from the punk kids who were doing cool from the punk kids who were doing cool from the punk kids who were doing this to be free of that. or if you go this to be free of that. or if you go this to be free of that. or if you go back to their origins, they didn't they back to their origins, they didn't they back to their origins, they didn't they didn't have any money, so they were didn't have any money, so they were didn't have any money, so they were using safety pins to pin up their using safety pins to pin up their using safety pins to pin up their clothes and made that a virtue. Instead clothes and made that a virtue. Instead clothes and made that a virtue. Instead of having one safety pin, have a of having one safety pin, have a of having one safety pin, have a hundred. Um, and it became a a fashion hundred. Um, and it became a a fashion hundred. Um, and it became a a fashion gesture authentically. gesture authentically. gesture authentically. So, these are kind of some of the things So, these are kind of some of the things So, these are kind of some of the things that I was exposed to. Um, and they're that I was exposed to. Um, and they're that I was exposed to. Um, and they're very very different. And I think the very very different. And I think the very very different. And I think the kind of big breakthrough for me was when kind of big breakthrough for me was when kind of big breakthrough for me was when I was able to synthesize I was able to synthesize I was able to synthesize both perspectives. Like I love the way both perspectives. Like I love the way both perspectives. Like I love the way Chanel makes my wife look really Chanel makes my wife look really Chanel makes my wife look really elegant, but I it's disgusting how its elegant, but I it's disgusting how its elegant, but I it's disgusting how its advertising contributes to her body advertising contributes to her body advertising contributes to her body dysmorphia. dysmorphia. dysmorphia. and um you know buy this dress you'll and um you know buy this dress you'll and um you know buy this dress you'll get the man get the man get the man you know look like this model and you'll you know look like this model and you'll you know look like this model and you'll be happy all the lies of advertising is be happy all the lies of advertising is be happy all the lies of advertising is really disgusting and negative but at really disgusting and negative but at really disgusting and negative but at the same time things look beautiful and the same time things look beautiful and the same time things look beautiful and I love highquality things and because I love highquality things and because I love highquality things and because they represent um no limits to materials they represent um no limits to materials they represent um no limits to materials and construction that's the that's the and construction that's the that's the and construction that's the that's the promise of couture is the is that the promise of couture is the is that the promise of couture is the is that the really great things are made like art really great things are made like art really great things are made like art objects and if you see a couture objects and if you see a couture objects and if you see a couture dress and the options and the dress and the options and the dress and the options and the possibilities are it's no different from possibilities are it's no different from possibilities are it's no different from what I do and it's and even a ready to what I do and it's and even a ready to what I do and it's and even a ready to wear wear wear beautifully made piece of like allayia beautifully made piece of like allayia beautifully made piece of like allayia is at this in my view the same level as is at this in my view the same level as is at this in my view the same level as one of my sculptures. this is a one of my sculptures. this is a one of my sculptures. this is a different utility. And and when I work different utility. And and when I work different utility. And and when I work in industrial design capacity, I'm in industrial design capacity, I'm in industrial design capacity, I'm always trying to deliver um best always trying to deliver um best always trying to deliver um best practices so that the $100 sneaker practices so that the $100 sneaker practices so that the $100 sneaker really really really uh can deliver like a you know something uh can deliver like a you know something uh can deliver like a you know something of of much more cost. And so you can of of much more cost. And so you can of of much more cost. And so you can feel a greater connection with your feel a greater connection with your feel a greater connection with your stuff so that maybe you're less likely stuff so that maybe you're less likely stuff so that maybe you're less likely to immediately throw it in the landfill. to immediately throw it in the landfill. to immediately throw it in the landfill. Maybe you're more likely to throw it in Maybe you're more likely to throw it in Maybe you're more likely to throw it in the washing machine or get a new pair of the washing machine or get a new pair of the washing machine or get a new pair of shoelaces and or you love it so because shoelaces and or you love it so because shoelaces and or you love it so because it's been on a journey with you so you it's been on a journey with you so you it's been on a journey with you so you rock the stain or you repair it. rock the stain or you repair it. rock the stain or you repair it. How do you live with those conflicting How do you live with those conflicting How do you live with those conflicting emotions of allowing yourself to be emotions of allowing yourself to be emotions of allowing yourself to be uplifted and inspired by, you know, uplifted and inspired by, you know, uplifted and inspired by, you know, something wellmade that is beautiful something wellmade that is beautiful something wellmade that is beautiful while also being repelled or repulsed by while also being repelled or repulsed by while also being repelled or repulsed by the means of production and what that the means of production and what that the means of production and what that represents and the predatory aspects of represents and the predatory aspects of represents and the predatory aspects of that? like how can those two things that? like how can those two things that? like how can those two things coexist and and and you know marinate coexist and and and you know marinate coexist and and and you know marinate together and your work is like an together and your work is like an together and your work is like an expression of that internal conflict. expression of that internal conflict. expression of that internal conflict. >> Yeah. I mean I give um full credit to >> Yeah. I mean I give um full credit to >> Yeah. I mean I give um full credit to the to France and the great people um the to France and the great people um the to France and the great people um the great think the great French the great think the great French the great think the great French thinkers um because they really helped thinkers um because they really helped thinkers um because they really helped me come to terms with the contradictions me come to terms with the contradictions me come to terms with the contradictions um and I don't just mean like the um and I don't just mean like the um and I don't just mean like the structuralist writers of the 70s like structuralist writers of the 70s like structuralist writers of the 70s like Roland Bart and Fuko but I mean going Roland Bart and Fuko but I mean going Roland Bart and Fuko but I mean going back to Bodilair and the beginning of back to Bodilair and the beginning of back to Bodilair and the beginning of surrealism where paradox and surrealism where paradox and surrealism where paradox and contradiction are um are paramount. You contradiction are um are paramount. You contradiction are um are paramount. You know, walking a lobster on a leash and know, walking a lobster on a leash and know, walking a lobster on a leash and the tuleries to offend the petite the tuleries to offend the petite the tuleries to offend the petite bgeoisi is hilarious and what a pain in bgeoisi is hilarious and what a pain in bgeoisi is hilarious and what a pain in the ass and difficult thing or making a the ass and difficult thing or making a the ass and difficult thing or making a cup out of fur and imagine drinking out cup out of fur and imagine drinking out cup out of fur and imagine drinking out of fur and the disgusting nature of that of fur and the disgusting nature of that of fur and the disgusting nature of that but then seeing a beautiful cup or but then seeing a beautiful cup or but then seeing a beautiful cup or displaying a urinal as as a fountain displaying a urinal as as a fountain displaying a urinal as as a fountain calling it fountain. these all of these calling it fountain. these all of these calling it fountain. these all of these works of art have this um this paradox works of art have this um this paradox works of art have this um this paradox to them. Imagine in 1918 going to a to them. Imagine in 1918 going to a to them. Imagine in 1918 going to a fancy art exhibition at the Armory in fancy art exhibition at the Armory in fancy art exhibition at the Armory in New York City and seeing a urinal on a New York City and seeing a urinal on a New York City and seeing a urinal on a table and someone calling it fountain table and someone calling it fountain table and someone calling it fountain and it was on the front page of the New and it was on the front page of the New and it was on the front page of the New York Post. The shock and horror that York Post. The shock and horror that York Post. The shock and horror that this was accepted. this was accepted. this was accepted. >> And I I think that's that's true today. >> And I I think that's that's true today. >> And I I think that's that's true today. Um I think that both can be true and and Um I think that both can be true and and Um I think that both can be true and and it's important. Speaking of uh shock and it's important. Speaking of uh shock and it's important. Speaking of uh shock and horror, so in your in your in this early horror, so in your in your in this early horror, so in your in your in this early phase of your career, I mean like not phase of your career, I mean like not phase of your career, I mean like not for nothing also like you're also for nothing also like you're also for nothing also like you're also speaking to like the the cheekiness and speaking to like the the cheekiness and speaking to like the the cheekiness and there's a comedic levity also to some of there's a comedic levity also to some of there's a comedic levity also to some of these pieces that uh infuses your work these pieces that uh infuses your work these pieces that uh infuses your work like like it's funny too at the same like like it's funny too at the same like like it's funny too at the same time time time >> but like take care of the luxuries, the >> but like take care of the luxuries, the >> but like take care of the luxuries, the necessities will take care of necessities will take care of necessities will take care of themselves. Just go for it. themselves. Just go for it. themselves. Just go for it. that idea of going for it. Um, correct that idea of going for it. Um, correct that idea of going for it. Um, correct me if I'm wrong, but that was sort of me if I'm wrong, but that was sort of me if I'm wrong, but that was sort of you were you were you were struggling you were you were you were struggling you were you were you were struggling with that idea like you were you you with that idea like you were you you with that idea like you were you you went to London. I think you were still went to London. I think you were still went to London. I think you were still in Bennington and you went off to London in Bennington and you went off to London in Bennington and you went off to London to like study architecture and thought to like study architecture and thought to like study architecture and thought maybe I'll be an architect. Uh, and maybe I'll be an architect. Uh, and maybe I'll be an architect. Uh, and there was some point at which your there was some point at which your there was some point at which your teacher or mentor was like, let go of teacher or mentor was like, let go of teacher or mentor was like, let go of this bgeoa idea of like being a uh this bgeoa idea of like being a uh this bgeoa idea of like being a uh somebody who's going to provide for your somebody who's going to provide for your somebody who's going to provide for your middle class family and like start being middle class family and like start being middle class family and like start being an artist and live your life. And it an artist and live your life. And it an artist and live your life. And it seems like he u not only encouraged you, seems like he u not only encouraged you, seems like he u not only encouraged you, but that he kind of opened up your eyes but that he kind of opened up your eyes but that he kind of opened up your eyes that there was another way of living that there was another way of living that there was another way of living that perhaps was more consistent with that perhaps was more consistent with that perhaps was more consistent with the bands that you were seeing at the bands that you were seeing at the bands that you were seeing at Anthrax, you know, when you were in high Anthrax, you know, when you were in high Anthrax, you know, when you were in high school that spoke to you and and changed school that spoke to you and and changed school that spoke to you and and changed your lens on like how you wanted to your lens on like how you wanted to your lens on like how you wanted to pursue your artistic sensibilities. pursue your artistic sensibilities. pursue your artistic sensibilities. >> Well, I that's pretty close to the way >> Well, I that's pretty close to the way >> Well, I that's pretty close to the way it happened. the the only and this might it happened. the the only and this might it happened. the the only and this might sound like a little bit of a cynical sound like a little bit of a cynical sound like a little bit of a cynical like adjustment to the mythology and like adjustment to the mythology and like adjustment to the mythology and that's that I really wanted to provide that's that I really wanted to provide that's that I really wanted to provide not just for my family that I didn't not just for my family that I didn't not just for my family that I didn't have and be a bgeoa contributing member have and be a bgeoa contributing member have and be a bgeoa contributing member of society but I also felt like it was of society but I also felt like it was of society but I also felt like it was my duty to make the world a better place my duty to make the world a better place my duty to make the world a better place and when I was living in thatchers and when I was living in thatchers and when I was living in thatchers England which was really broken it was England which was really broken it was England which was really broken it was hard to eat and get through the day and hard to eat and get through the day and hard to eat and get through the day and stuff it was so bleak that at one point stuff it was so bleak that at one point stuff it was so bleak that at one point it wasn't a professor It was my own it wasn't a professor It was my own it wasn't a professor It was my own frustration with my existence. frustration with my existence. frustration with my existence. Then I kind of said, "This world is Then I kind of said, "This world is Then I kind of said, "This world is [ __ ] We're going to hell in a hand [ __ ] We're going to hell in a hand [ __ ] We're going to hell in a hand basket. I'm just going to have the best basket. I'm just going to have the best basket. I'm just going to have the best time I can." And that's when I really time I can." And that's when I really time I can." And that's when I really took my art seriously. took my art seriously. took my art seriously. But like sympathetic magic happens, I But like sympathetic magic happens, I But like sympathetic magic happens, I wound up finding ways of making the wound up finding ways of making the wound up finding ways of making the world a better place through industrial world a better place through industrial world a better place through industrial design and sharing the values of um real design and sharing the values of um real design and sharing the values of um real values of sustainability through my art values of sustainability through my art values of sustainability through my art and making helping myself first and then and making helping myself first and then and making helping myself first and then hopefully others see how we can embrace hopefully others see how we can embrace hopefully others see how we can embrace paradox and find value and virtue and paradox and find value and virtue and paradox and find value and virtue and inspiration behind hard work. So through inspiration behind hard work. So through inspiration behind hard work. So through the back door, I kind of got to my the back door, I kind of got to my the back door, I kind of got to my original ideas and also became really original ideas and also became really original ideas and also became really bajgeois. So bajgeois. So bajgeois. So >> right, it worked out that way. >> right, it worked out that way. >> right, it worked out that way. >> You just you took the the around the >> You just you took the the around the >> You just you took the the around the outside to get there. outside to get there. outside to get there. >> I mean, you never see that's the thing. >> I mean, you never see that's the thing. >> I mean, you never see that's the thing. You never really know how it's going to You never really know how it's going to You never really know how it's going to turn out. turn out. turn out. >> But you moved back to New York and and >> But you moved back to New York and and >> But you moved back to New York and and in the early phase of your career when in the early phase of your career when in the early phase of your career when you're trying to figure it out, like you you're trying to figure it out, like you you're trying to figure it out, like you had all these odd jobs. you were a had all these odd jobs. you were a had all these odd jobs. you were a janitor at Barney's, but you have this janitor at Barney's, but you have this janitor at Barney's, but you have this opportunity to step in to uh designing opportunity to step in to uh designing opportunity to step in to uh designing some uh you know, one of their windows some uh you know, one of their windows some uh you know, one of their windows and this becomes like an inflection and this becomes like an inflection and this becomes like an inflection point. And just for people that don't point. And just for people that don't point. And just for people that don't know, like during this period of time in know, like during this period of time in know, like during this period of time in the in the like late 80s, early 90s, the in the like late 80s, early 90s, the in the like late 80s, early 90s, like the Barney's like window displays like the Barney's like window displays like the Barney's like window displays were like a big [ __ ] deal. They were were like a big [ __ ] deal. They were were like a big [ __ ] deal. They were the best window displays the best window displays the best window displays in the world at that time. And also, it in the world at that time. And also, it in the world at that time. And also, it was a different time. I'm sure there are was a different time. I'm sure there are was a different time. I'm sure there are great window displays, but we didn't great window displays, but we didn't great window displays, but we didn't have the internet. So things like a have the internet. So things like a have the internet. So things like a Christmas window display, it might sound Christmas window display, it might sound Christmas window display, it might sound really provincial now, but I remember really provincial now, but I remember really provincial now, but I remember one one year cuz I worked there for many one one year cuz I worked there for many one one year cuz I worked there for many years. One year's we did like a window years. One year's we did like a window years. One year's we did like a window display about Prince, the artist, and it display about Prince, the artist, and it display about Prince, the artist, and it was a fantastic Prince tribute. I did was a fantastic Prince tribute. I did was a fantastic Prince tribute. I did another one about Madonna. Like these another one about Madonna. Like these another one about Madonna. Like these were like giant diaramas that we spent were like giant diaramas that we spent were like giant diaramas that we spent months working on. So there were works months working on. So there were works months working on. So there were works of commercial art that people would of commercial art that people would of commercial art that people would really queue up and and look at there. really queue up and and look at there. really queue up and and look at there. There were people took it really There were people took it really There were people took it really seriously. It was a a valid art and Andy seriously. It was a a valid art and Andy seriously. It was a a valid art and Andy Warhol did them and Robert Rousenberg Warhol did them and Robert Rousenberg Warhol did them and Robert Rousenberg and Jasper Johns they all had careers and Jasper Johns they all had careers and Jasper Johns they all had careers doing that. So walk us through uh you doing that. So walk us through uh you doing that. So walk us through uh you know this this experience of of creating know this this experience of of creating know this this experience of of creating this very transgressive uh window this very transgressive uh window this very transgressive uh window display. display. display. So I think it was 1995 and also you have So I think it was 1995 and also you have So I think it was 1995 and also you have to remember that we are um in the height to remember that we are um in the height to remember that we are um in the height of the AIDS pandemic. It was a very of the AIDS pandemic. It was a very of the AIDS pandemic. It was a very scary time and people in my community scary time and people in my community scary time and people in my community especially at Barney's were dying of especially at Barney's were dying of especially at Barney's were dying of AIDS and um AIDS and um AIDS and um Paris's burning had just come out. It Paris's burning had just come out. It Paris's burning had just come out. It was like a it was a it was a it was a was like a it was a it was a it was a was like a it was a it was a it was a very heartbreaking and difficult time. very heartbreaking and difficult time. very heartbreaking and difficult time. Um, so there was a holiday window um Um, so there was a holiday window um Um, so there was a holiday window um called Red Windows, which was uh they called Red Windows, which was uh they called Red Windows, which was uh they asked all these world famous artists to asked all these world famous artists to asked all these world famous artists to make something to go in the holiday make something to go in the holiday make something to go in the holiday windows and it was going to be auctioned windows and it was going to be auctioned windows and it was going to be auctioned off and would the money would go to off and would the money would go to off and would the money would go to Little Red Schoolhouse, which is a uh Little Red Schoolhouse, which is a uh Little Red Schoolhouse, which is a uh elementary school on 6th Avenue. And elementary school on 6th Avenue. And elementary school on 6th Avenue. And because I'd worked so hard as a window because I'd worked so hard as a window because I'd worked so hard as a window display artist underneath Simon Dunan display artist underneath Simon Dunan display artist underneath Simon Dunan and Adamo Dregario, and Adamo Dregario, and Adamo Dregario, uh, they invited me to participate in uh, they invited me to participate in uh, they invited me to participate in this art show even though I was totally this art show even though I was totally this art show even though I was totally unknown. unknown. unknown. And I decided to make because it was a And I decided to make because it was a And I decided to make because it was a Christmas windows a crash. And in the Christmas windows a crash. And in the Christmas windows a crash. And in the crash was uh Hello Kitty as baby Jesus. crash was uh Hello Kitty as baby Jesus. crash was uh Hello Kitty as baby Jesus. Um, Mother Mary was Madonna was Hello Um, Mother Mary was Madonna was Hello Um, Mother Mary was Madonna was Hello Kitty, but as Madonna with the sex Kitty, but as Madonna with the sex Kitty, but as Madonna with the sex booier with six breasts. The three kings booier with six breasts. The three kings booier with six breasts. The three kings were Bart Simpsons. And the Crash was were Bart Simpsons. And the Crash was were Bart Simpsons. And the Crash was inside of a McDonald's and it was all inside of a McDonald's and it was all inside of a McDonald's and it was all made out of duct tape. made out of duct tape. made out of duct tape. >> Um, and I really tried my hardest to >> Um, and I really tried my hardest to >> Um, and I really tried my hardest to make an earnest make an earnest make an earnest d Christmas nativity scene and it was d Christmas nativity scene and it was d Christmas nativity scene and it was called Hello Kitty Nativity Scene. called Hello Kitty Nativity Scene. called Hello Kitty Nativity Scene. So opening night happened and there were So opening night happened and there were So opening night happened and there were two parties. One for all the elite two parties. One for all the elite two parties. One for all the elite artists artists artists like Bryce Martin who and that was at like Bryce Martin who and that was at like Bryce Martin who and that was at someone's house and I wasn't invited to someone's house and I wasn't invited to someone's house and I wasn't invited to that and there was this other one for that and there was this other one for that and there was this other one for all like the window display artists that all like the window display artists that all like the window display artists that was on the street and we had hot was on the street and we had hot was on the street and we had hot chocolate and then the next day the chocolate and then the next day the chocolate and then the next day the letter started coming in the death letter started coming in the death letter started coming in the death threats, the protests. uh the Catholic threats, the protests. uh the Catholic threats, the protests. uh the Catholic League, which was an organization that League, which was an organization that League, which was an organization that um was anti-gay, that was trying to ban um was anti-gay, that was trying to ban um was anti-gay, that was trying to ban condoms, condoms, condoms, >> that was insensitive to the AIDS >> that was insensitive to the AIDS >> that was insensitive to the AIDS pandemic, went after us and said that we pandemic, went after us and said that we pandemic, went after us and said that we were desecrating Christmas. From my were desecrating Christmas. From my were desecrating Christmas. From my perspective, I was just commenting on perspective, I was just commenting on perspective, I was just commenting on the consumerism the consumerism the consumerism of this holy day. And there were 300 of this holy day. And there were 300 of this holy day. And there were 300 death threat letters, people. I got death threat letters, people. I got death threat letters, people. I got phone calls. It was very scary. And the phone calls. It was very scary. And the phone calls. It was very scary. And the on the front page of the New York Post on the front page of the New York Post on the front page of the New York Post was away with a manger. It was a picture was away with a manger. It was a picture was away with a manger. It was a picture of the nativity and it and Barney's of the nativity and it and Barney's of the nativity and it and Barney's capitulated and removed it from the show capitulated and removed it from the show capitulated and removed it from the show and offered a full page apology to all and offered a full page apology to all and offered a full page apology to all the people that were offended and that the people that were offended and that the people that were offended and that was kind of the first time that anyone was kind of the first time that anyone was kind of the first time that anyone saw my art. saw my art. saw my art. >> Yeah. I mean, first of all, it's a >> Yeah. I mean, first of all, it's a >> Yeah. I mean, first of all, it's a perfect setup for the New York Post to perfect setup for the New York Post to perfect setup for the New York Post to make a big stink. Uh, and then for, you make a big stink. Uh, and then for, you make a big stink. Uh, and then for, you know, the Catholic Church to insert know, the Catholic Church to insert know, the Catholic Church to insert itself into this in the midst of what itself into this in the midst of what itself into this in the midst of what was going on culturally in New York City was going on culturally in New York City was going on culturally in New York City at the time, it just it's it's it's hard at the time, it just it's it's it's hard at the time, it just it's it's it's hard in retrospect looking back to, you know, in retrospect looking back to, you know, in retrospect looking back to, you know, understand Barney's capitulation to that understand Barney's capitulation to that understand Barney's capitulation to that and the apology that followed. But I and the apology that followed. But I and the apology that followed. But I think in the context of the time, I think in the context of the time, I think in the context of the time, I mean, I don't know what is your mean, I don't know what is your mean, I don't know what is your perspective on that now? Like it seems perspective on that now? Like it seems perspective on that now? Like it seems like, like, like, >> well, even wanted to take advantage of, >> well, even wanted to take advantage of, >> well, even wanted to take advantage of, you know, kind of the the the happening you know, kind of the the the happening you know, kind of the the the happening artists of the time without having to artists of the time without having to artists of the time without having to take responsibility for the message uh take responsibility for the message uh take responsibility for the message uh that makes that artist so, you know, that makes that artist so, you know, that makes that artist so, you know, palpable and relevant. I mean, at the palpable and relevant. I mean, at the palpable and relevant. I mean, at the time, that's how I felt and I I I I time, that's how I felt and I I I I time, that's how I felt and I I I I still feel that I I still don't think still feel that I I still don't think still feel that I I still don't think they took responsibility for it. I mean, they took responsibility for it. I mean, they took responsibility for it. I mean, art is a hard job and I wasn't going out art is a hard job and I wasn't going out art is a hard job and I wasn't going out to offend a bunch of people. I wasn't to offend a bunch of people. I wasn't to offend a bunch of people. I wasn't even thinking about even thinking about even thinking about the possibility of offending anybody. I the possibility of offending anybody. I the possibility of offending anybody. I just was making an a a pure and true just was making an a a pure and true just was making an a a pure and true expression of my experience and I'd been expression of my experience and I'd been expression of my experience and I'd been watching the Simpsons a lot so I was watching the Simpsons a lot so I was watching the Simpsons a lot so I was informed by this kind of cultural informed by this kind of cultural informed by this kind of cultural critique um in seasons 1 through 10 and critique um in seasons 1 through 10 and critique um in seasons 1 through 10 and we were I I don't remember what year we were I I don't remember what year we were I I don't remember what year that was probably like season six or that was probably like season six or that was probably like season six or something or five. If anything, I could something or five. If anything, I could something or five. If anything, I could be accused of being a derivative in my be accused of being a derivative in my be accused of being a derivative in my political outlook of Matt Grooning and political outlook of Matt Grooning and political outlook of Matt Grooning and the and the and the brain trust that the and the and the brain trust that the and the and the brain trust that created those years of the Simpsons when created those years of the Simpsons when created those years of the Simpsons when they were so good. And and I remember they were so good. And and I remember they were so good. And and I remember feeling really betrayed because I really feeling really betrayed because I really feeling really betrayed because I really put my heart into this thing and I put my heart into this thing and I put my heart into this thing and I believed in my community at Barney and believed in my community at Barney and believed in my community at Barney and the people I worked with and I worked the people I worked with and I worked the people I worked with and I worked with them before and after for years. It with them before and after for years. It with them before and after for years. It was part of my my that those years in was part of my my that those years in was part of my my that those years in New York City. Um, and it was New York City. Um, and it was New York City. Um, and it was heartbreaking and also kind of scary heartbreaking and also kind of scary heartbreaking and also kind of scary that and and but people even in my that and and but people even in my that and and but people even in my family were were mad. They said that I family were were mad. They said that I family were were mad. They said that I wasn't respectful wasn't respectful wasn't respectful >> to um which I I wasn't that wasn't a >> to um which I I wasn't that wasn't a >> to um which I I wasn't that wasn't a priority um to be respectful to um the priority um to be respectful to um the priority um to be respectful to um the um degradation of the of the uh highest um degradation of the of the uh highest um degradation of the of the uh highest um I guess Easter is a bigger deal, um I guess Easter is a bigger deal, um I guess Easter is a bigger deal, right? Because it's the resurrection, right? Because it's the resurrection, right? Because it's the resurrection, but the birth of Jesus is a pretty big but the birth of Jesus is a pretty big but the birth of Jesus is a pretty big deal in Christianity. And that's why we deal in Christianity. And that's why we deal in Christianity. And that's why we um get um Kelly bags and 911s and um get um Kelly bags and 911s and um get um Kelly bags and 911s and sneakers on Christmas. sneakers on Christmas. sneakers on Christmas. >> Yeah. But this puts you uh on the map as >> Yeah. But this puts you uh on the map as >> Yeah. But this puts you uh on the map as like New York's new bad boy artist at like New York's new bad boy artist at like New York's new bad boy artist at the time, does it not? the time, does it not? the time, does it not? >> I don't know. It wasn't like that >> I don't know. It wasn't like that >> I don't know. It wasn't like that overnight, but I I did my first overnight, but I I did my first overnight, but I I did my first exhibition about a year later and um at exhibition about a year later and um at exhibition about a year later and um at a gallery called Morris Healey Gallery, a gallery called Morris Healey Gallery, a gallery called Morris Healey Gallery, which is one of the first galleries in which is one of the first galleries in which is one of the first galleries in in Chelsea. and I I did my next in Chelsea. and I I did my next in Chelsea. and I I did my next exhibition there. exhibition there. exhibition there. >> Mhm. >> Mhm. >> Mhm. >> Um but it's a gradual but yeah, I mean I >> Um but it's a gradual but yeah, I mean I >> Um but it's a gradual but yeah, I mean I think people think people think people paid attention and I guess I'm kind of paid attention and I guess I'm kind of paid attention and I guess I'm kind of lucky that my first piece of art that lucky that my first piece of art that lucky that my first piece of art that people saw was something that I put a people saw was something that I put a people saw was something that I put a lot of time into. lot of time into. lot of time into. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. It's essentially just a It's essentially just a It's essentially just a a critique like you're just calling out a critique like you're just calling out a critique like you're just calling out like what it is. It's like, okay, like what it is. It's like, okay, like what it is. It's like, okay, Christmas is this just, you know, Christmas is this just, you know, Christmas is this just, you know, capitalistic, you know, kind of like mad capitalistic, you know, kind of like mad capitalistic, you know, kind of like mad rush and this ritual that we all kind of rush and this ritual that we all kind of rush and this ritual that we all kind of like follow every single year is being like follow every single year is being like follow every single year is being driven by our consumer impulses at the driven by our consumer impulses at the driven by our consumer impulses at the cost of, you know, the the the sort of cost of, you know, the the the sort of cost of, you know, the the the sort of real origin story behind it, which isn't real origin story behind it, which isn't real origin story behind it, which isn't exactly like, you know, like a exactly like, you know, like a exactly like, you know, like a revolutionary idea. No, but it's if you revolutionary idea. No, but it's if you revolutionary idea. No, but it's if you think back about if you care about think back about if you care about think back about if you care about Christianity like the a God's son being Christianity like the a God's son being Christianity like the a God's son being born, that's a and that's like your main born, that's a and that's like your main born, that's a and that's like your main like faith myth, that's a big deal. But like faith myth, that's a big deal. But like faith myth, that's a big deal. But I don't think that anyone ever seems to I don't think that anyone ever seems to I don't think that anyone ever seems to talk about that part. talk about that part. talk about that part. And um they're just into the stuff. And um they're just into the stuff. And um they're just into the stuff. >> Which is the way that you were raised. I >> Which is the way that you were raised. I >> Which is the way that you were raised. I mean, didn't didn't David Foster Wallace mean, didn't didn't David Foster Wallace mean, didn't didn't David Foster Wallace he said something like, you know, we all he said something like, you know, we all he said something like, you know, we all worship something and essentially like worship something and essentially like worship something and essentially like consumerism has become our secular consumerism has become our secular consumerism has become our secular religion. religion. religion. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Which is a core that's like the theme of >> Which is a core that's like the theme of >> Which is a core that's like the theme of that piece and and essentially so so that piece and and essentially so so that piece and and essentially so so much of your work. much of your work. much of your work. >> But it speaks to and it still is. >> But it speaks to and it still is. >> But it speaks to and it still is. >> Yeah, it still is. And so >> Yeah, it still is. And so >> Yeah, it still is. And so >> beneath that is this idea of the you >> beneath that is this idea of the you >> beneath that is this idea of the you know the power of storytelling because know the power of storytelling because know the power of storytelling because when you there is nothing like when you when you there is nothing like when you when you there is nothing like when you see whether it's that specific color of see whether it's that specific color of see whether it's that specific color of blue on a Tiffany box or a Nike swoosh blue on a Tiffany box or a Nike swoosh blue on a Tiffany box or a Nike swoosh or you know pick whatever lights you up or you know pick whatever lights you up or you know pick whatever lights you up like it's amazing how that iconography like it's amazing how that iconography like it's amazing how that iconography can communicate such an exponential can communicate such an exponential can communicate such an exponential emotional emotional emotional response. We associate it in in our response. We associate it in in our response. We associate it in in our human brains as something aspirational human brains as something aspirational human brains as something aspirational that we want to embody and it it it that we want to embody and it it it that we want to embody and it it it causes us to spend money in order to get causes us to spend money in order to get causes us to spend money in order to get it. Deliluting ourselves that if we have it. Deliluting ourselves that if we have it. Deliluting ourselves that if we have it that we will then, you know, be able it that we will then, you know, be able it that we will then, you know, be able to kind of embody the ideal of what that to kind of embody the ideal of what that to kind of embody the ideal of what that iconography is trying to communicate to iconography is trying to communicate to iconography is trying to communicate to us. And there's nothing else like it. us. And there's nothing else like it. us. And there's nothing else like it. like it is so powerful in its ability to like it is so powerful in its ability to like it is so powerful in its ability to do that. Just a a color or a simple tiny do that. Just a a color or a simple tiny do that. Just a a color or a simple tiny symbol can have that impact on a single symbol can have that impact on a single symbol can have that impact on a single human being and on culture at large. human being and on culture at large. human being and on culture at large. >> It's a form of magic. Um I that form of >> It's a form of magic. Um I that form of >> It's a form of magic. Um I that form of magic is it's a cousin of sympathetic magic is it's a cousin of sympathetic magic is it's a cousin of sympathetic magic. I I call it magic. I I call it magic. I I call it >> explain. You haven't defined sympathetic >> explain. You haven't defined sympathetic >> explain. You haven't defined sympathetic magic though because this is like a key magic though because this is like a key magic though because this is like a key piece. I will, but first I just want to piece. I will, but first I just want to piece. I will, but first I just want to define another term that's a little define another term that's a little define another term that's a little complicated called associated value, complicated called associated value, complicated called associated value, which we talked about a minute ago, which we talked about a minute ago, which we talked about a minute ago, which is um James Bond's wristwatch, which is um James Bond's wristwatch, which is um James Bond's wristwatch, right? Or um a pair of I always think right? Or um a pair of I always think right? Or um a pair of I always think the ultimate uh is a pair of Air the ultimate uh is a pair of Air the ultimate uh is a pair of Air Jordans, right? Because they're Jordans, right? Because they're Jordans, right? Because they're basketball sneakers and they're the same basketball sneakers and they're the same basketball sneakers and they're the same ones that Michael Jordan wears and if ones that Michael Jordan wears and if ones that Michael Jordan wears and if you wear them, you can play. The promise you wear them, you can play. The promise you wear them, you can play. The promise of advertising is that you get to play of advertising is that you get to play of advertising is that you get to play as well as the best player of his time. as well as the best player of his time. as well as the best player of his time. >> And that's a form of magic because >> And that's a form of magic because >> And that's a form of magic because you're buying the association. And even you're buying the association. And even you're buying the association. And even MJ had things like that that he would do MJ had things like that that he would do MJ had things like that that he would do like he would wear his special colored like he would wear his special colored like he would wear his special colored socks or two pair of socks because he socks or two pair of socks because he socks or two pair of socks because he was insecure about his calves being was insecure about his calves being was insecure about his calves being skinny or whatever little or the red and skinny or whatever little or the red and skinny or whatever little or the red and the black gave him um color helped him the black gave him um color helped him the black gave him um color helped him feel more powerful and confident. and feel more powerful and confident. and feel more powerful and confident. and being a pro- artist or athlete or being a pro- artist or athlete or being a pro- artist or athlete or whatever, you have your little whatever, you have your little whatever, you have your little rituals that mean something to you. And rituals that mean something to you. And rituals that mean something to you. And and if they work a little, that's a lot and if they work a little, that's a lot and if they work a little, that's a lot because the advantage is you just need because the advantage is you just need because the advantage is you just need to have every little advantage you can to have every little advantage you can to have every little advantage you can because you've done everything possible. because you've done everything possible. because you've done everything possible. So why not care about your sock color So why not care about your sock color So why not care about your sock color choice if it if if you if it matters? choice if it if if you if it matters? choice if it if if you if it matters? >> That's associated value. And should I >> That's associated value. And should I >> That's associated value. And should I try and talk about sympathetic magic? try and talk about sympathetic magic? try and talk about sympathetic magic? So, a sympathetic magic um has there two So, a sympathetic magic um has there two So, a sympathetic magic um has there two definitions. Um the definitions. Um the definitions. Um the first one, I'm not sure if it's the first one, I'm not sure if it's the first one, I'm not sure if it's the first or the second, is um is um first or the second, is um is um first or the second, is um is um proximity. So, uh uh steel lock of your proximity. So, uh uh steel lock of your proximity. So, uh uh steel lock of your betrothed hair, pray to it so they fall betrothed hair, pray to it so they fall betrothed hair, pray to it so they fall in love with you, eat the heart of your in love with you, eat the heart of your in love with you, eat the heart of your adversary to assume their power. adversary to assume their power. adversary to assume their power. Um Um Um that's proximity. is closeness. The that's proximity. is closeness. The that's proximity. is closeness. The other one um the sympathetic magic that other one um the sympathetic magic that other one um the sympathetic magic that is is is a little more complicated and is is is a little more complicated and is is is a little more complicated and that's more like build it and they will that's more like build it and they will that's more like build it and they will come or a voodoo doll or an ex photo. come or a voodoo doll or an ex photo. come or a voodoo doll or an ex photo. Build a model of your ailing arm. Bring Build a model of your ailing arm. Bring Build a model of your ailing arm. Bring it to your religious practitioner who it to your religious practitioner who it to your religious practitioner who helps you find ways of praying to that helps you find ways of praying to that helps you find ways of praying to that arm believing that you will heal. If you arm believing that you will heal. If you arm believing that you will heal. If you believe you will not heal, you will not believe you will not heal, you will not believe you will not heal, you will not heal. You will get sick and die. If you heal. You will get sick and die. If you heal. You will get sick and die. If you believe that you will heal, you might believe that you will heal, you might believe that you will heal, you might heal. And the idea of possibly achieving heal. And the idea of possibly achieving heal. And the idea of possibly achieving something, possibly healing is something, possibly healing is something, possibly healing is infinitely better than not healing. So infinitely better than not healing. So infinitely better than not healing. So the origin of sympathetic magic as I the origin of sympathetic magic as I the origin of sympathetic magic as I know it is it was after World War II in know it is it was after World War II in know it is it was after World War II in Papa New Guinea when some um uh Papa New Guinea when some um uh Papa New Guinea when some um uh evangelists, anthropologists came to evangelists, anthropologists came to evangelists, anthropologists came to study some study some study some Aboriginal folks who were using stone Aboriginal folks who were using stone Aboriginal folks who were using stone axes and they came with and the and the axes and they came with and the and the axes and they came with and the and the anthropologists and the missionaries anthropologists and the missionaries anthropologists and the missionaries came with iron axes and they traded and came with iron axes and they traded and came with iron axes and they traded and the the Aboriginal people said, "Well, the the Aboriginal people said, "Well, the the Aboriginal people said, "Well, What about those metal boxes that you What about those metal boxes that you What about those metal boxes that you have that are powered by propane and you have that are powered by propane and you have that are powered by propane and you open it and food come out of them? And open it and food come out of them? And open it and food come out of them? And they said, "Well, they those come from they said, "Well, they those come from they said, "Well, they those come from the sky from cargo the sky from cargo the sky from cargo parachutes." And it's called cargo cult parachutes." And it's called cargo cult parachutes." And it's called cargo cult is what this is called. But and they is what this is called. But and they is what this is called. But and they said, "Well, what why can't those planes said, "Well, what why can't those planes said, "Well, what why can't those planes land here or those ships that you get land here or those ships that you get land here or those ships that you get stuff from? Why can't they land here?" stuff from? Why can't they land here?" stuff from? Why can't they land here?" And they said, "Well, because you don't And they said, "Well, because you don't And they said, "Well, because you don't have runways and you need big docks for have runways and you need big docks for have runways and you need big docks for big ships." And they said, "Well, we'll big ships." And they said, "Well, we'll big ships." And they said, "Well, we'll just build them." And the just build them." And the just build them." And the anthropologists laughed and said, you're anthropologists laughed and said, you're anthropologists laughed and said, you're not going to build runways and they're not going to build runways and they're not going to build runways and they're not going to land on them. But the local not going to land on them. But the local not going to land on them. But the local guys built runways and they built guys built runways and they built guys built runways and they built control towers and anthropologists came control towers and anthropologists came control towers and anthropologists came not to land on them but to check out not to land on them but to check out not to land on them but to check out these control towers and runways and these control towers and runways and these control towers and runways and say, "Wow, they are copying our methods say, "Wow, they are copying our methods say, "Wow, they are copying our methods as a religious um form of magic." And as a religious um form of magic." And as a religious um form of magic." And sure enough, what did the cargo planes sure enough, what did the cargo planes sure enough, what did the cargo planes bring? They brought iron axes. They bring? They brought iron axes. They bring? They brought iron axes. They brought propane powered refrigerators brought propane powered refrigerators brought propane powered refrigerators and clothes and all this western goods. and clothes and all this western goods. and clothes and all this western goods. So not the thing about magic and any So not the thing about magic and any So not the thing about magic and any kind of magic, it doesn't always come kind of magic, it doesn't always come kind of magic, it doesn't always come out the way you intend. But sympathetic out the way you intend. But sympathetic out the way you intend. But sympathetic magic is a way of building something out magic is a way of building something out magic is a way of building something out of faith because you believe in of faith because you believe in of faith because you believe in something. And that's what everything in something. And that's what everything in something. And that's what everything in this book. It's all right this book. It's all right this book. It's all right >> out of faith. >> out of faith. >> out of faith. >> But it doesn't always come the way you >> But it doesn't always come the way you >> But it doesn't always come the way you intended. Like I didn't expect my art intended. Like I didn't expect my art intended. Like I didn't expect my art career to take off by building that. I career to take off by building that. I career to take off by building that. I just wanted to make the I had an just wanted to make the I had an just wanted to make the I had an opportunity to participate in this thing opportunity to participate in this thing opportunity to participate in this thing in my culture and do it with love and I in my culture and do it with love and I in my culture and do it with love and I gave 100% to this art piece and then did gave 100% to this art piece and then did gave 100% to this art piece and then did I want to have a gallery a career I want to have a gallery a career I want to have a gallery a career showing in galleries and museums like I showing in galleries and museums like I showing in galleries and museums like I have now? Of course I did. I didn't have now? Of course I did. I didn't have now? Of course I did. I didn't understand for a second that that would understand for a second that that would understand for a second that that would be the path. That wasn't my intention. be the path. That wasn't my intention. be the path. That wasn't my intention. It was just always do the work and make It was just always do the work and make It was just always do the work and make the world the way you want to be, make the world the way you want to be, make the world the way you want to be, make your life the way you want it to be. And your life the way you want it to be. And your life the way you want it to be. And you may succeed or you may die trying, you may succeed or you may die trying, you may succeed or you may die trying, but the operative thing is the work that but the operative thing is the work that but the operative thing is the work that you do. You can't take that away from me you do. You can't take that away from me you do. You can't take that away from me or you or anyone. It's the work. or you or anyone. It's the work. or you or anyone. It's the work. >> Translation, uh, if you say you're an >> Translation, uh, if you say you're an >> Translation, uh, if you say you're an astronaut, you are an astronaut. And astronaut, you are an astronaut. And astronaut, you are an astronaut. And when Tom Sack says, "I'm going to build when Tom Sack says, "I'm going to build when Tom Sack says, "I'm going to build my own space program and we're going to my own space program and we're going to my own space program and we're going to go to Mars." This is uh you practicing go to Mars." This is uh you practicing go to Mars." This is uh you practicing sympathetic magic on some level. sympathetic magic on some level. sympathetic magic on some level. >> And and I do that for you. >> And and I do that for you. >> And and I do that for you. >> Explain that. >> Explain that. >> Explain that. >> It's exactly the same. That's a great >> It's exactly the same. That's a great >> It's exactly the same. That's a great That's a great connection cuz 20 years That's a great connection cuz 20 years That's a great connection cuz 20 years later, I'm asked to go to space with later, I'm asked to go to space with later, I'm asked to go to space with SpaceX. I'm asked I'm asked to go on a SpaceX. I'm asked I'm asked to go on a SpaceX. I'm asked I'm asked to go on a lunar mission. lunar mission. lunar mission. >> Oh, is that right? >> Oh, is that right? >> Oh, is that right? >> Yeah. I'm asked to be the unofficial >> Yeah. I'm asked to be the unofficial >> Yeah. I'm asked to be the unofficial artisan residence at artisan residence at artisan residence at >> So, this may actually pan out at some >> So, this may actually pan out at some >> So, this may actually pan out at some point. I don't even know if it's a point. I don't even know if it's a point. I don't even know if it's a priority for me because it's like it's I priority for me because it's like it's I priority for me because it's like it's I don't think I I really don't think I I really don't think I I really >> but it speaks to the power of what >> but it speaks to the power of what >> but it speaks to the power of what you're trying to you're trying to you're trying to >> Yeah. And you know through my space >> Yeah. And you know through my space >> Yeah. And you know through my space program I became the unofficial artist program I became the unofficial artist program I became the unofficial artist and residents of the entry descent and residents of the entry descent and residents of the entry descent landing team of Mars 2020 at JPL which landing team of Mars 2020 at JPL which landing team of Mars 2020 at JPL which is the most is the most is the most >> pinnacle elite part of a gigantic ent >> pinnacle elite part of a gigantic ent >> pinnacle elite part of a gigantic ent scientific entity known as NASA. I got scientific entity known as NASA. I got scientific entity known as NASA. I got to work with some some great folks to work with some some great folks to work with some some great folks there. there. there. >> I have a JPL pad here. I what I love >> I have a JPL pad here. I what I love >> I have a JPL pad here. I what I love about your art is that like you have about your art is that like you have about your art is that like you have these, you know, incredible pieces that, these, you know, incredible pieces that, these, you know, incredible pieces that, you know, we can only see in you know, we can only see in you know, we can only see in installations or in museums, but you installations or in museums, but you installations or in museums, but you also you you can buy your own like JPL also you you can buy your own like JPL also you you can buy your own like JPL notepad. So, why is this so like why do notepad. So, why is this so like why do notepad. So, why is this so like why do you make this available for us to buy? you make this available for us to buy? you make this available for us to buy? >> So, I stole that from Tomaso Rivllini's >> So, I stole that from Tomaso Rivllini's >> So, I stole that from Tomaso Rivllini's desk um at JPL. Damas Rivvelini is um is desk um at JPL. Damas Rivvelini is um is desk um at JPL. Damas Rivvelini is um is a very close friend who invented the a very close friend who invented the a very close friend who invented the airbags that bounce Pathfinder down to airbags that bounce Pathfinder down to airbags that bounce Pathfinder down to Mars and and the sky crane that lowers Mars and and the sky crane that lowers Mars and and the sky crane that lowers the um if you look Tomaso Riverini up in the um if you look Tomaso Riverini up in the um if you look Tomaso Riverini up in in uh you'll see the patent for a Mars in uh you'll see the patent for a Mars in uh you'll see the patent for a Mars landing device, entry descent landing landing device, entry descent landing landing device, entry descent landing device. And he and Kevin Han and Adam device. And he and Kevin Han and Adam device. And he and Kevin Han and Adam Stelner and Greg Vain all became Stelner and Greg Vain all became Stelner and Greg Vain all became friends. But I stole that from Tomaso's friends. But I stole that from Tomaso's friends. But I stole that from Tomaso's desk because Toamazo is kind of like um desk because Toamazo is kind of like um desk because Toamazo is kind of like um my my my Michael Jordan. So Tinker Hatfield, the Michael Jordan. So Tinker Hatfield, the Michael Jordan. So Tinker Hatfield, the designer of the Air Jordan, designer of the Air Jordan, designer of the Air Jordan, sort of Michael was Tinker's muse and sort of Michael was Tinker's muse and sort of Michael was Tinker's muse and Tomaso is my muse. So, the shoe, the Tomaso is my muse. So, the shoe, the Tomaso is my muse. So, the shoe, the Marsard shoe is for Tomaso to work in Marsard shoe is for Tomaso to work in Marsard shoe is for Tomaso to work in the Mars yard at the Pasadena um in the Mars yard at the Pasadena um in the Mars yard at the Pasadena um in Pasadena at the Jet Propulsion Pasadena at the Jet Propulsion Pasadena at the Jet Propulsion Laboratory and also for him to go to um Laboratory and also for him to go to um Laboratory and also for him to go to um headquarters in Washington DC to sneak headquarters in Washington DC to sneak headquarters in Washington DC to sneak around the hallways to try and get around the hallways to try and get around the hallways to try and get funding for the next mission. It's a funding for the next mission. It's a funding for the next mission. It's a shoe for both of those realities. So, shoe for both of those realities. So, shoe for both of those realities. So, that JPL notepad is the paper that the that JPL notepad is the paper that the that JPL notepad is the paper that the smartest minds on planet Earth, right? smartest minds on planet Earth, right? smartest minds on planet Earth, right? like the people from Caltech and JPL, like the people from Caltech and JPL, like the people from Caltech and JPL, the guys who land us in other worlds. the guys who land us in other worlds. the guys who land us in other worlds. And are they the only people at JPL? Are And are they the only people at JPL? Are And are they the only people at JPL? Are they really the only people that know they really the only people that know they really the only people that know how to navigate without satellites onto how to navigate without satellites onto how to navigate without satellites onto other worlds? Like landing on the moon's other worlds? Like landing on the moon's other worlds? Like landing on the moon's pretty easy because we've got tools to pretty easy because we've got tools to pretty easy because we've got tools to do that, but you you got to be totally do that, but you you got to be totally do that, but you you got to be totally self-sufficient and autonomous to land self-sufficient and autonomous to land self-sufficient and autonomous to land on on Mars. So you it's like it's pretty on on Mars. So you it's like it's pretty on on Mars. So you it's like it's pretty high-end stuff. And so that's the paper high-end stuff. And so that's the paper high-end stuff. And so that's the paper that you use to think it all up. So if that you use to think it all up. So if that you use to think it all up. So if you want your own space program, you you want your own space program, you you want your own space program, you better have the right tools, better have the right tools, better have the right tools, >> right? the right pencil and the right >> right? the right pencil and the right >> right? the right pencil and the right pad. So this is this pad is then this is pad. So this is this pad is then this is pad. So this is this pad is then this is a sacred object a sacred object a sacred object >> in your in your mind and it represents >> in your in your mind and it represents >> in your in your mind and it represents something you know very meaningful about something you know very meaningful about something you know very meaningful about >> uh the human spirit and the you know the >> uh the human spirit and the you know the >> uh the human spirit and the you know the striving to do something never before striving to do something never before striving to do something never before done. done. done. >> Yeah. And it's it's I mean on the back >> Yeah. And it's it's I mean on the back >> Yeah. And it's it's I mean on the back of each of those pages is blank. You can of each of those pages is blank. You can of each of those pages is blank. You can turn it upside down and it's regular turn it upside down and it's regular turn it upside down and it's regular paper. paper. paper. >> But the front of that and it is it's an >> But the front of that and it is it's an >> But the front of that and it is it's an exact reproduction of the paper that exact reproduction of the paper that exact reproduction of the paper that they have at JPL. I added some little they have at JPL. I added some little they have at JPL. I added some little information at the bottom about my information at the bottom about my information at the bottom about my studio, but it's available on um my web studio, but it's available on um my web studio, but it's available on um my web store. I think it's like 10 bucks or store. I think it's like 10 bucks or store. I think it's like 10 bucks or something. But my point is you have the something. But my point is you have the something. But my point is you have the power through that paper to fulfill your power through that paper to fulfill your power through that paper to fulfill your dreams. I I do. And I use that every day dreams. I I do. And I use that every day dreams. I I do. And I use that every day for my to-do list. So every day before for my to-do list. So every day before for my to-do list. So every day before >> I look at my phone, I write do drawings >> I look at my phone, I write do drawings >> I look at my phone, I write do drawings and um lists and my meditations and my and um lists and my meditations and my and um lists and my meditations and my dream interpretations or whatever I want dream interpretations or whatever I want dream interpretations or whatever I want to write down on that paper. And I have to write down on that paper. And I have to write down on that paper. And I have binders. I have 3 m of binders of just binders. I have 3 m of binders of just binders. I have 3 m of binders of just that paper. that paper. that paper. This episode is sponsored by BetterHelp. This episode is sponsored by BetterHelp. This episode is sponsored by BetterHelp. Honestly, you guys, there really is just Honestly, you guys, there really is just Honestly, you guys, there really is just no getting around it. If you want to no getting around it. If you want to no getting around it. If you want to feel and be better, you have to talk to feel and be better, you have to talk to feel and be better, you have to talk to somebody. And while opening up might somebody. And while opening up might somebody. And while opening up might feel a little bit scary, it really is feel a little bit scary, it really is feel a little bit scary, it really is essential to overcoming the blind spots essential to overcoming the blind spots essential to overcoming the blind spots that hold us back. And the bottom line that hold us back. And the bottom line that hold us back. 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Sign up and get 10% off at betterhelp.com/rich 10% off at betterhelp.com/rich 10% off at betterhelp.com/rich roll. roll. roll. This episode is sponsored by Rivian. Our This episode is sponsored by Rivian. Our This episode is sponsored by Rivian. Our phones get better over time. Our watches phones get better over time. Our watches phones get better over time. Our watches do. Even our thermostats do. There's no do. Even our thermostats do. There's no do. Even our thermostats do. There's no reason why our cars shouldn't. And reason why our cars shouldn't. And reason why our cars shouldn't. And that's one of the things that really that's one of the things that really that's one of the things that really sets Rivian apart. These are deeply sets Rivian apart. These are deeply sets Rivian apart. These are deeply intelligent connected vehicles that intelligent connected vehicles that intelligent connected vehicles that evolve over time through over-the-air evolve over time through over-the-air evolve over time through over-the-air updates. One day it's a refined updates. One day it's a refined updates. One day it's a refined interface, the next it's a new feature interface, the next it's a new feature interface, the next it's a new feature like pet comfort so your dog stays cool like pet comfort so your dog stays cool like pet comfort so your dog stays cool while you run into the store. Just the while you run into the store. Just the while you run into the store. Just the other week, I woke up to Universal other week, I woke up to Universal other week, I woke up to Universal Hands-free, Riven's driver assistance Hands-free, Riven's driver assistance Hands-free, Riven's driver assistance system. It's just wild how my car just system. It's just wild how my car just system. It's just wild how my car just keeps getting better and smarter. And keeps getting better and smarter. And keeps getting better and smarter. And the thing is, it's not just fancy bells the thing is, it's not just fancy bells the thing is, it's not just fancy bells and whistles. The tech is actually and whistles. The tech is actually and whistles. The tech is actually useful because everything that Riven useful because everything that Riven useful because everything that Riven does serves function. Thoughtful safety does serves function. Thoughtful safety does serves function. Thoughtful safety features, adaptive lighting that features, adaptive lighting that features, adaptive lighting that responds to the road and other drivers, responds to the road and other drivers, responds to the road and other drivers, an app that lets you plan trips with an app that lets you plan trips with an app that lets you plan trips with charging stops built in, and warm or charging stops built in, and warm or charging stops built in, and warm or cool the car before you ever step cool the car before you ever step cool the car before you ever step outside. It's advanced, but never outside. It's advanced, but never outside. It's advanced, but never overwhelming. Seamless, super intuitive, overwhelming. Seamless, super intuitive, overwhelming. Seamless, super intuitive, designed for real life. It might be the designed for real life. It might be the designed for real life. It might be the most sophisticated piece of technology most sophisticated piece of technology most sophisticated piece of technology you own, but it's built to help you you own, but it's built to help you you own, but it's built to help you focus on what matters, the journey. We should clarify for the audience who We should clarify for the audience who doesn't know what we're talking about doesn't know what we're talking about doesn't know what we're talking about that uh Tom has created his own uh space that uh Tom has created his own uh space that uh Tom has created his own uh space program and done many installations with program and done many installations with program and done many installations with his creations and his collaborations his creations and his collaborations his creations and his collaborations with his studio team. You've created with his studio team. You've created with his studio team. You've created your own lunar lander. You your your your own lunar lander. You your your your own lunar lander. You your your rover vehicle. You've got all sorts of rover vehicle. You've got all sorts of rover vehicle. You've got all sorts of elaborate fabrications here to recreate elaborate fabrications here to recreate elaborate fabrications here to recreate your version of what a space program your version of what a space program your version of what a space program would look like in the Tom Sachs would look like in the Tom Sachs would look like in the Tom Sachs aesthetic. Last night, uh, I had the aesthetic. Last night, uh, I had the aesthetic. Last night, uh, I had the opportunity to go to a a screening of, opportunity to go to a a screening of, opportunity to go to a a screening of, uh, a film version that chronicles the uh, a film version that chronicles the uh, a film version that chronicles the the Mars space program project that you the Mars space program project that you the Mars space program project that you did where you took over, uh, the New did where you took over, uh, the New did where you took over, uh, the New York Armory, and it was an entire York Armory, and it was an entire York Armory, and it was an entire operation where you launch these women operation where you launch these women operation where you launch these women into space, land them on Mars to be the into space, land them on Mars to be the into space, land them on Mars to be the first women ever to land on Mars, and first women ever to land on Mars, and first women ever to land on Mars, and they go out and they take samples and they go out and they take samples and they go out and they take samples and they return. It's like an it's an they return. It's like an it's an they return. It's like an it's an unbelievable thing that was directed by unbelievable thing that was directed by unbelievable thing that was directed by Van Neistat who's here, friend of the Van Neistat who's here, friend of the Van Neistat who's here, friend of the podcast. It's quite a remarkable film, podcast. It's quite a remarkable film, podcast. It's quite a remarkable film, but uh also like just a remarkable like but uh also like just a remarkable like but uh also like just a remarkable like piece of performance art. Like there's a piece of performance art. Like there's a piece of performance art. Like there's a performance aspect to this aspect of performance aspect to this aspect of performance aspect to this aspect of your of your art that is so incredibly your of your art that is so incredibly your of your art that is so incredibly elaborate. like it it must have taken elaborate. like it it must have taken elaborate. like it it must have taken years and years and years to get that to years and years and years to get that to years and years and years to get that to where it was for that to be filmed in where it was for that to be filmed in where it was for that to be filmed in that way. that way. that way. >> Yeah. I mean that was that was 2012 >> Yeah. I mean that was that was 2012 >> Yeah. I mean that was that was 2012 and we had started working on it on in and we had started working on it on in and we had started working on it on in 200 200 200 five but also drawings of it exist in 99 five but also drawings of it exist in 99 five but also drawings of it exist in 99 and we're still working on it. We've and we're still working on it. We've and we're still working on it. We've done five missions, five major missions done five missions, five major missions done five missions, five major missions to the moon, Mars, Europa, Vesta, and we to the moon, Mars, Europa, Vesta, and we to the moon, Mars, Europa, Vesta, and we even went to um an alien spaceship even went to um an alien spaceship even went to um an alien spaceship called Infinity. And this is where like called Infinity. And this is where like called Infinity. And this is where like the cheekiness comes in. Why is it the cheekiness comes in. Why is it the cheekiness comes in. Why is it cheeky? It's real. I mean, we take cheeky? It's real. I mean, we take cheeky? It's real. I mean, we take it's we don't use the word performance. it's we don't use the word performance. it's we don't use the word performance. We say live demonstration of our We say live demonstration of our We say live demonstration of our systems. Um, it might seem cheeky systems. Um, it might seem cheeky systems. Um, it might seem cheeky because we use cardboard and duct tape because we use cardboard and duct tape because we use cardboard and duct tape instead of kerosene and and titanium or instead of kerosene and and titanium or instead of kerosene and and titanium or whatever. Um, but we have all the same whatever. Um, but we have all the same whatever. Um, but we have all the same problems and we have all the same problems and we have all the same problems and we have all the same stakes. There's even a moment when um in stakes. There's even a moment when um in stakes. There's even a moment when um in the other NASA where uh the astronauts the other NASA where uh the astronauts the other NASA where uh the astronauts landed on the moon and there was a landed on the moon and there was a landed on the moon and there was a contingency if the contingency if the contingency if the ascent engine did not ignite because ascent engine did not ignite because ascent engine did not ignite because there was some question about that that there was some question about that that there was some question about that that the astronauts would be marooned on the the astronauts would be marooned on the the astronauts would be marooned on the moon. Mhm. moon. Mhm. moon. Mhm. >> So Nixon hired William Sapphire to write >> So Nixon hired William Sapphire to write >> So Nixon hired William Sapphire to write a speech in the event that they were a speech in the event that they were a speech in the event that they were stuck on the moon. And you can Google stuck on the moon. And you can Google stuck on the moon. And you can Google it. It's out there. And so it. It's out there. And so it. It's out there. And so I hired a Nixon impersonator to read I hired a Nixon impersonator to read I hired a Nixon impersonator to read that speech on video. And in the in the that speech on video. And in the in the that speech on video. And in the in the desk at mission control, we have a DVD desk at mission control, we have a DVD desk at mission control, we have a DVD of that video. That was kind of the of that video. That was kind of the of that video. That was kind of the threat to my landing crew, to my threat to my landing crew, to my threat to my landing crew, to my astronaut, saying, "If you don't if you astronaut, saying, "If you don't if you astronaut, saying, "If you don't if you screw up the landing with the Atari screw up the landing with the Atari screw up the landing with the Atari emulator, we're going to play this emulator, we're going to play this emulator, we're going to play this video." And the Nixon impersonator that video." And the Nixon impersonator that video." And the Nixon impersonator that I hired did such a terrible job of I hired did such a terrible job of I hired did such a terrible job of impersonating Nixon, and it's so awful impersonating Nixon, and it's so awful impersonating Nixon, and it's so awful and awkward, but it is the correct words and awkward, but it is the correct words and awkward, but it is the correct words that I I didn't want I didn't want that I I didn't want I didn't want that I I didn't want I didn't want anyone to see the video. I didn't want anyone to see the video. I didn't want anyone to see the video. I didn't want to show a Nixon to show a Nixon to show a Nixon William Sapphire Arch Wright um video in William Sapphire Arch Wright um video in William Sapphire Arch Wright um video in my art piece. So, that was always kind my art piece. So, that was always kind my art piece. So, that was always kind of the threat. And in doing this um for of the threat. And in doing this um for of the threat. And in doing this um for 20 years now, no one has crashed in a 20 years now, no one has crashed in a 20 years now, no one has crashed in a live demo. Tons in practice, but no live demo. Tons in practice, but no live demo. Tons in practice, but no one's crashed yet. one's crashed yet. one's crashed yet. >> So, >> So, >> So, >> so the landing for people that don't I >> so the landing for people that don't I >> so the landing for people that don't I mean, you literally have that that Atari mean, you literally have that that Atari mean, you literally have that that Atari joystick joystick joystick >> that we had when we were kids. And yeah, >> that we had when we were kids. And yeah, >> that we had when we were kids. And yeah, like you you see the screen and it's the like you you see the screen and it's the like you you see the screen and it's the video game of the landing coming down video game of the landing coming down video game of the landing coming down and you have to do it just right or and you have to do it just right or and you have to do it just right or it'll crash. it'll crash. it'll crash. >> And it's hard. It's not that easy. And >> And it's hard. It's not that easy. And >> And it's hard. It's not that easy. And it's one of the things that the it's one of the things that the it's one of the things that the astronauts practice. But the the the astronauts practice. But the the the astronauts practice. But the the the value of this is that we work really value of this is that we work really value of this is that we work really hard to realize these ex these um hard to realize these ex these um hard to realize these ex these um details to such an extreme degree that details to such an extreme degree that details to such an extreme degree that the experience for us becomes real. And the experience for us becomes real. And the experience for us becomes real. And when you're in the live demonstration, when you're in the live demonstration, when you're in the live demonstration, by the way, sometimes they're like 8 by the way, sometimes they're like 8 by the way, sometimes they're like 8 hours long. hours long. hours long. They're exhausting, but you suspend your They're exhausting, but you suspend your They're exhausting, but you suspend your disbelief. And there are stakes. And disbelief. And there are stakes. And disbelief. And there are stakes. And we've had some Apollo 13 moments where we've had some Apollo 13 moments where we've had some Apollo 13 moments where we're drilling into an ice pond and the we're drilling into an ice pond and the we're drilling into an ice pond and the drill got stuck. And we had Tomaso drill got stuck. And we had Tomaso drill got stuck. And we had Tomaso Rivllini and and Adam Steltzner on stage Rivllini and and Adam Steltzner on stage Rivllini and and Adam Steltzner on stage screaming like Apollo 13 style like use screaming like Apollo 13 style like use screaming like Apollo 13 style like use WD40 on the ice. WD40 on the ice. WD40 on the ice. >> They actually had the real JPL >> They actually had the real JPL >> They actually had the real JPL >> because they're friends. They happen to >> because they're friends. They happen to >> because they're friends. They happen to be in the front row and and Gverti from be in the front row and and Gverti from be in the front row and and Gverti from Bright Works in San Francisco. They were Bright Works in San Francisco. They were Bright Works in San Francisco. They were all like screaming and we were arguing all like screaming and we were arguing all like screaming and we were arguing about how to do this and the drill was about how to do this and the drill was about how to do this and the drill was stuck in the ice for like 2 hours and we stuck in the ice for like 2 hours and we stuck in the ice for like 2 hours and we the live demonstration was 2 hours extra the live demonstration was 2 hours extra the live demonstration was 2 hours extra long because we were trying to get it long because we were trying to get it long because we were trying to get it stuck out of the ice and it's no stuck out of the ice and it's no stuck out of the ice and it's no different than guys trying to change a different than guys trying to change a different than guys trying to change a carburetor underneath a shade tree, not carburetor underneath a shade tree, not carburetor underneath a shade tree, not knowing what they're doing, arguing knowing what they're doing, arguing knowing what they're doing, arguing about how to get the car started. It was about how to get the car started. It was about how to get the car started. It was just a bunch of friends arguing about just a bunch of friends arguing about just a bunch of friends arguing about how to solve this problem. And the how to solve this problem. And the how to solve this problem. And the authenticity of that and the boringness authenticity of that and the boringness authenticity of that and the boringness of it because it wasn't theater. If it of it because it wasn't theater. If it of it because it wasn't theater. If it was theater, we'd find a way to make it was theater, we'd find a way to make it was theater, we'd find a way to make it entertaining made it real for us. And entertaining made it real for us. And entertaining made it real for us. And the astronauts had cooling suits and the astronauts had cooling suits and the astronauts had cooling suits and they were getting hot and they had to they were getting hot and they had to they were getting hot and they had to have ice change in their cooling suits have ice change in their cooling suits have ice change in their cooling suits and batteries so that they wouldn't and batteries so that they wouldn't and batteries so that they wouldn't suffocate into these in these airtight suffocate into these in these airtight suffocate into these in these airtight suits. All create opportunities for us suits. All create opportunities for us suits. All create opportunities for us to make the stuff real. Mhm. I think we to make the stuff real. Mhm. I think we to make the stuff real. Mhm. I think we all grew up watching Mythbusters a lot all grew up watching Mythbusters a lot all grew up watching Mythbusters a lot and Adam Savage is a really good friend and Adam Savage is a really good friend and Adam Savage is a really good friend and the the not the idea that it is and the the not the idea that it is and the the not the idea that it is possible that it's plausible is enough possible that it's plausible is enough possible that it's plausible is enough in art to get the idea across. I mean in art to get the idea across. I mean in art to get the idea across. I mean the I think of the martial artist who the I think of the martial artist who the I think of the martial artist who spent his whole life training and never spent his whole life training and never spent his whole life training and never got into a fight and then one day was got into a fight and then one day was got into a fight and then one day was surrounded by asalants in a dark alley surrounded by asalants in a dark alley surrounded by asalants in a dark alley and instead of using his martial arts he and instead of using his martial arts he and instead of using his martial arts he just fake dodge and ran away and then just fake dodge and ran away and then just fake dodge and ran away and then years later he was on his deathbed um years later he was on his deathbed um years later he was on his deathbed um contemplating the moment like oh man I contemplating the moment like oh man I contemplating the moment like oh man I could have used my martial arts and could have used my martial arts and could have used my martial arts and kicked those five guys' ass or whatever. kicked those five guys' ass or whatever. kicked those five guys' ass or whatever. But really what he was his whole life But really what he was his whole life But really what he was his whole life was a student or teacher of this was a student or teacher of this was a student or teacher of this discipline. So it doesn't really matter discipline. So it doesn't really matter discipline. So it doesn't really matter if you think about it if you fly to Mars if you think about it if you fly to Mars if you think about it if you fly to Mars on a SpaceX mission or whatever or you on a SpaceX mission or whatever or you on a SpaceX mission or whatever or you do all the training. It's that's just a do all the training. It's that's just a do all the training. It's that's just a few moments in the journey. The the the few moments in the journey. The the the few moments in the journey. The the the journey is all the research, the journey is all the research, the journey is all the research, the physical fitness, the science, the the physical fitness, the science, the the physical fitness, the science, the the the sacrifices that you make to your the sacrifices that you make to your the sacrifices that you make to your family for not being there and all that family for not being there and all that family for not being there and all that training. That's the that's the that's training. That's the that's the that's training. That's the that's the that's the reward the reward the reward >> and the collaborative aspect of it. I >> and the collaborative aspect of it. I >> and the collaborative aspect of it. I mean, as an artist in this studio, like mean, as an artist in this studio, like mean, as an artist in this studio, like you are creating art, but you're also you are creating art, but you're also you are creating art, but you're also you also serve as this teacher and this you also serve as this teacher and this you also serve as this teacher and this mentor for young people and and you're mentor for young people and and you're mentor for young people and and you're in this collaborative relationship with in this collaborative relationship with in this collaborative relationship with a lot of people. So, it's it's kind of a lot of people. So, it's it's kind of a lot of people. So, it's it's kind of multi-dimensional in that regard. It multi-dimensional in that regard. It multi-dimensional in that regard. It isn't just like everybody's showing up isn't just like everybody's showing up isn't just like everybody's showing up and does what Tom wants. Like there's and does what Tom wants. Like there's and does what Tom wants. Like there's almost this community aspect to that almost this community aspect to that almost this community aspect to that ecosystem. ecosystem. ecosystem. >> Well, when it's when the studio is >> Well, when it's when the studio is >> Well, when it's when the studio is great, it's better than what I could do great, it's better than what I could do great, it's better than what I could do by myself. I mean, by myself. I mean, by myself. I mean, Van and I argue endlessly about details Van and I argue endlessly about details Van and I argue endlessly about details and I don't and we have these wonderful and I don't and we have these wonderful and I don't and we have these wonderful arguments and I don't I'm not always arguments and I don't I'm not always arguments and I don't I'm not always right. I I want to win the argument like right. I I want to win the argument like right. I I want to win the argument like everyone does, but I only care about the everyone does, but I only care about the everyone does, but I only care about the best solution. The greatest privilege of best solution. The greatest privilege of best solution. The greatest privilege of the studio is working with people who the studio is working with people who the studio is working with people who are smarter than I am and where we can are smarter than I am and where we can are smarter than I am and where we can use our combined intelligence to find use our combined intelligence to find use our combined intelligence to find something that's maybe even more something that's maybe even more something that's maybe even more authentic than just doing it myself, authentic than just doing it myself, authentic than just doing it myself, which sounds crazy, right? But which sounds crazy, right? But which sounds crazy, right? But >> um we are a community. So if it's an >> um we are a community. So if it's an >> um we are a community. So if it's an expression of the community, that is expression of the community, that is expression of the community, that is more authentic than me just working more authentic than me just working more authentic than me just working alone like Vincent Van Gogh. You've said alone like Vincent Van Gogh. You've said alone like Vincent Van Gogh. You've said that the studio is your greatest that the studio is your greatest that the studio is your greatest greatest work of art. greatest work of art. greatest work of art. >> I think in in many ways that's true. I >> I think in in many ways that's true. I >> I think in in many ways that's true. I mean uh the relationships, the people, mean uh the relationships, the people, mean uh the relationships, the people, these shelving systems, these shelving systems, these shelving systems, um the libraries of of books and tape um the libraries of of books and tape um the libraries of of books and tape and other materials. It's an ongoing and other materials. It's an ongoing and other materials. It's an ongoing uh struggle to keep it all organized, uh struggle to keep it all organized, uh struggle to keep it all organized, keeping the flow and eliminating. keeping the flow and eliminating. keeping the flow and eliminating. There's some materials. I really don't There's some materials. I really don't There's some materials. I really don't like sheetrock. So, if you don't have like sheetrock. So, if you don't have like sheetrock. So, if you don't have sheetrock in your life, you have to It's sheetrock in your life, you have to It's sheetrock in your life, you have to It's really It's tough. It gets things get really It's tough. It gets things get really It's tough. It gets things get expensive and weird. I also don't like expensive and weird. I also don't like expensive and weird. I also don't like molding. molding. molding. >> I also don't like the color purple. So, >> I also don't like the color purple. So, >> I also don't like the color purple. So, if you eliminate these kind of basic if you eliminate these kind of basic if you eliminate these kind of basic things that everyone has in their life, things that everyone has in their life, things that everyone has in their life, your life gets more much more your life gets more much more your life gets more much more interesting and complicated. interesting and complicated. interesting and complicated. >> Yeah. I mean part of the the book which >> Yeah. I mean part of the the book which >> Yeah. I mean part of the the book which you know we haven't even really gotten you know we haven't even really gotten you know we haven't even really gotten into the book specifically but like Tom into the book specifically but like Tom into the book specifically but like Tom Sach's guide like it is it is part like Sach's guide like it is it is part like Sach's guide like it is it is part like what you would expect in an art book what you would expect in an art book what you would expect in an art book with like beautiful photographs of of with like beautiful photographs of of with like beautiful photographs of of your work. Um but it's really you know your work. Um but it's really you know your work. Um but it's really you know very practical in the sense that you are very practical in the sense that you are very practical in the sense that you are sharing your wisdom and the principles sharing your wisdom and the principles sharing your wisdom and the principles that you know gird like your perspective that you know gird like your perspective that you know gird like your perspective on life and and your work. And so on life and and your work. And so on life and and your work. And so there's a functionality and a you and a there's a functionality and a you and a there's a functionality and a you and a utility to this book that you don't utility to this book that you don't utility to this book that you don't normally you wouldn't find in a typical normally you wouldn't find in a typical normally you wouldn't find in a typical art book. But that speaks to your art art book. But that speaks to your art art book. But that speaks to your art because your art is about utility and because your art is about utility and because your art is about utility and function as much as it is about anything function as much as it is about anything function as much as it is about anything else. And in the back you have, you else. And in the back you have, you else. And in the back you have, you know, kind of this glossery of, you know, kind of this glossery of, you know, kind of this glossery of, you know, resources, but you you even have know, resources, but you you even have know, resources, but you you even have like your your color palette and like like your your color palette and like like your your color palette and like these are the colors I like and these these are the colors I like and these these are the colors I like and these are the colors that are off limit and are the colors that are off limit and are the colors that are off limit and like, you know, that gets to that kind like, you know, that gets to that kind like, you know, that gets to that kind of obsessive objective like there is a of obsessive objective like there is a of obsessive objective like there is a right way to do things and a wrong way right way to do things and a wrong way right way to do things and a wrong way to do things and there's my way of doing to do things and there's my way of doing to do things and there's my way of doing things. things. things. >> This book is a lot of things. Um, and >> This book is a lot of things. Um, and >> This book is a lot of things. Um, and one of the things that I intended to be one of the things that I intended to be one of the things that I intended to be is a guide to um, a guide to the work, is a guide to um, a guide to the work, is a guide to um, a guide to the work, not just to me personally, but the work not just to me personally, but the work not just to me personally, but the work that that that me and the studio have been able to me and the studio have been able to me and the studio have been able to achieve collectively to answer the achieve collectively to answer the achieve collectively to answer the question of what is this? What do we do? question of what is this? What do we do? question of what is this? What do we do? A lot of this work came out of a book A lot of this work came out of a book A lot of this work came out of a book that Van Neistat and I started called that Van Neistat and I started called that Van Neistat and I started called the Tom Sox studio manual which is kind the Tom Sox studio manual which is kind the Tom Sox studio manual which is kind of like a part Emily Post of like a part Emily Post of like a part Emily Post part dictionary. Um part dictionary. Um part dictionary. Um but I think that got really too but I think that got really too but I think that got really too complicated. I think a lot of those complicated. I think a lot of those complicated. I think a lot of those ideas that we worked on got into ideas that we worked on got into ideas that we worked on got into Spirited Man and um Van's Spirited Man and um Van's Spirited Man and um Van's movie series and but this is really movie series and but this is really movie series and but this is really a guide to all the work and there are 25 a guide to all the work and there are 25 a guide to all the work and there are 25 essays in here that I that I worked on essays in here that I that I worked on essays in here that I that I worked on with Howie Khan and the design was by with Howie Khan and the design was by with Howie Khan and the design was by Yju Choi. There are stories of my Yju Choi. There are stories of my Yju Choi. There are stories of my process. So, in a way, like some of the process. So, in a way, like some of the process. So, in a way, like some of the ideas behind the Tom Sack Studio manual ideas behind the Tom Sack Studio manual ideas behind the Tom Sack Studio manual are in here, but it's really more about are in here, but it's really more about are in here, but it's really more about my motivations and methods to achieve my motivations and methods to achieve my motivations and methods to achieve and some of the tricks that I've used to and some of the tricks that I've used to and some of the tricks that I've used to get through the day. Like when I'm get through the day. Like when I'm get through the day. Like when I'm really stuck, um I sometimes just take a really stuck, um I sometimes just take a really stuck, um I sometimes just take a break and make a lamp. That's like one break and make a lamp. That's like one break and make a lamp. That's like one of the one of the because a lamp is like of the one of the because a lamp is like of the one of the because a lamp is like a lower order of thing opposed to a a lower order of thing opposed to a a lower order of thing opposed to a sculpture. Sculpture is a or painting is sculpture. Sculpture is a or painting is sculpture. Sculpture is a or painting is really high. Like a lamp, what is it you really high. Like a lamp, what is it you really high. Like a lamp, what is it you do? You pull a string and light comes do? You pull a string and light comes do? You pull a string and light comes out. A chair, you put your ass on it. A out. A chair, you put your ass on it. A out. A chair, you put your ass on it. A painting or sculpture, what do you do? painting or sculpture, what do you do? painting or sculpture, what do you do? You contemplate it. That's like a pretty You contemplate it. That's like a pretty You contemplate it. That's like a pretty hard hard hard >> Mhm. thing. Like what does contemplate >> Mhm. thing. Like what does contemplate >> Mhm. thing. Like what does contemplate mean? But a lamp creates illumination mean? But a lamp creates illumination mean? But a lamp creates illumination for eating or working or making other for eating or working or making other for eating or working or making other art objects. and its utility makes it art objects. and its utility makes it art objects. and its utility makes it easier to comprehend, but there are easier to comprehend, but there are easier to comprehend, but there are still sculptural aspects and um uh still sculptural aspects and um uh still sculptural aspects and um uh sculptural problems to solve. So, it's sculptural problems to solve. So, it's sculptural problems to solve. So, it's just a way of like a uh it's like doing just a way of like a uh it's like doing just a way of like a uh it's like doing free throws or warming up. free throws or warming up. free throws or warming up. >> Yeah. You if you're stuck on a on a >> Yeah. You if you're stuck on a on a >> Yeah. You if you're stuck on a on a problem like build a lamp, problem like build a lamp, problem like build a lamp, >> one of your rules. >> one of your rules. >> one of your rules. >> And there's a whole chapter on on how >> And there's a whole chapter on on how >> And there's a whole chapter on on how that works in here that and that's that works in here that and that's that works in here that and that's abskin to if at first you don't succeed, abskin to if at first you don't succeed, abskin to if at first you don't succeed, give up immediately. Build a lamp. And give up immediately. Build a lamp. And give up immediately. Build a lamp. And there's a chapter on on how I do that. there's a chapter on on how I do that. there's a chapter on on how I do that. And And And >> you know, if this part of this is a >> you know, if this part of this is a >> you know, if this part of this is a self-help book, I would say like a self-help book, I would say like a self-help book, I would say like a couple of things might be useful to you couple of things might be useful to you couple of things might be useful to you finding something in your life. Not that finding something in your life. Not that finding something in your life. Not that you should. I highly recommend against you should. I highly recommend against you should. I highly recommend against doing it my way, but if you want to doing it my way, but if you want to doing it my way, but if you want to yourself, yourself, yourself, >> you're one of those people for whom it >> you're one of those people for whom it >> you're one of those people for whom it almost doesn't matter like what what the almost doesn't matter like what what the almost doesn't matter like what what the what the piece is like. It's so what the piece is like. It's so what the piece is like. It's so immediately identifiable as yours. Like immediately identifiable as yours. Like immediately identifiable as yours. Like there is, you know, there's just there is, you know, there's just there is, you know, there's just something uh indelible about your something uh indelible about your something uh indelible about your fingerprint on your work where you can fingerprint on your work where you can fingerprint on your work where you can see it immediately and identify it. Um, see it immediately and identify it. Um, see it immediately and identify it. Um, which gets into this idea of which gets into this idea of which gets into this idea of authenticity. The word has kind of like authenticity. The word has kind of like authenticity. The word has kind of like come up a couple times. It's one of your come up a couple times. It's one of your come up a couple times. It's one of your three rules for life. So I wanted to three rules for life. So I wanted to three rules for life. So I wanted to spend a few minutes talking a little bit spend a few minutes talking a little bit spend a few minutes talking a little bit more in depth about that particularly more in depth about that particularly more in depth about that particularly uh as we're you know kind of you know uh as we're you know kind of you know uh as we're you know kind of you know careening off the cliff of artificial careening off the cliff of artificial careening off the cliff of artificial intelligence and what that intelligence and what that intelligence and what that >> what that means not just for artists or >> what that means not just for artists or >> what that means not just for artists or creative people but for all of us. creative people but for all of us. creative people but for all of us. How do you think about authenticity and How do you think about authenticity and How do you think about authenticity and and the importance of authenticity and the importance of authenticity and the importance of authenticity particularly in our in our digital age particularly in our in our digital age particularly in our in our digital age and kind of what you know artificial and kind of what you know artificial and kind of what you know artificial intelligence is auguring? intelligence is auguring? intelligence is auguring? >> Authenticity is everything. I remember >> Authenticity is everything. I remember >> Authenticity is everything. I remember when Mickey Drexler and I first became when Mickey Drexler and I first became when Mickey Drexler and I first became friends um it was because of a letter friends um it was because of a letter friends um it was because of a letter that I I wrote to him about authenticity that I I wrote to him about authenticity that I I wrote to him about authenticity in making military clothes fashionable in making military clothes fashionable in making military clothes fashionable and the problem with that. and the problem with that. and the problem with that. whether it's khakis or combat whether it's khakis or combat whether it's khakis or combat um cargo pants and it started a dialogue um cargo pants and it started a dialogue um cargo pants and it started a dialogue for that continues to this day about for that continues to this day about for that continues to this day about finding your identity through the stuff finding your identity through the stuff finding your identity through the stuff around you right and I I make stuff um around you right and I I make stuff um around you right and I I make stuff um there there are three reasons people there there are three reasons people there there are three reasons people make things for spirituality make things for spirituality make things for spirituality sensuality and stuff so spirituality is sensuality and stuff so spirituality is sensuality and stuff so spirituality is the big questions are we alone where do the big questions are we alone where do the big questions are we alone where do we come from what happens when we That's we come from what happens when we That's we come from what happens when we That's what religion and science do. what religion and science do. what religion and science do. Sensuality is climbing the highest Sensuality is climbing the highest Sensuality is climbing the highest mountain, flying to another world. Um mountain, flying to another world. Um mountain, flying to another world. Um the um smell of the incense, the awe the um smell of the incense, the awe the um smell of the incense, the awe that you feel in a cathedral and the that you feel in a cathedral and the that you feel in a cathedral and the sound of the reverb and that makes you sound of the reverb and that makes you sound of the reverb and that makes you feel small. Um uh the the touch of a tat feel small. Um uh the the touch of a tat feel small. Um uh the the touch of a tat of and the the smell of tatami or of of and the the smell of tatami or of of and the the smell of tatami or of matcha and stuff is all the stuff the matcha and stuff is all the stuff the matcha and stuff is all the stuff the cathedral itself the rocket ship the cathedral itself the rocket ship the cathedral itself the rocket ship the chiaan tea bowl that you drink the the chiaan tea bowl that you drink the the chiaan tea bowl that you drink the the the the the matcha from the crucifix all the the the matcha from the crucifix all the the the matcha from the crucifix all those things and as a maker I make stuff those things and as a maker I make stuff those things and as a maker I make stuff right like I'm not James Bond I'm Q the right like I'm not James Bond I'm Q the right like I'm not James Bond I'm Q the guy that makes all the cool gadgets and guy that makes all the cool gadgets and guy that makes all the cool gadgets and stuff but it doesn't mean [ __ ] that stuff but it doesn't mean [ __ ] that stuff but it doesn't mean [ __ ] that without without without the philosophical underpinnings, without the philosophical underpinnings, without the philosophical underpinnings, without the spirituality, like you don't make a the spirituality, like you don't make a the spirituality, like you don't make a cathedral without believing in God, you cathedral without believing in God, you cathedral without believing in God, you don't build a spaceship to go to other don't build a spaceship to go to other don't build a spaceship to go to other worlds without, you know, trying to like worlds without, you know, trying to like worlds without, you know, trying to like understand the importance of uh understand the importance of uh understand the importance of uh reflecting on what we're doing here on reflecting on what we're doing here on reflecting on what we're doing here on Earth. Like these are big questions, but Earth. Like these are big questions, but Earth. Like these are big questions, but nevertheless, as individuals, we nevertheless, as individuals, we nevertheless, as individuals, we specialize in one of these three specialize in one of these three specialize in one of these three categories. And for me, it's it's stuff categories. And for me, it's it's stuff categories. And for me, it's it's stuff making. And by coming to terms and making. And by coming to terms and making. And by coming to terms and accepting that I am not an astronaut. I accepting that I am not an astronaut. I accepting that I am not an astronaut. I am more the guy that um figures out the am more the guy that um figures out the am more the guy that um figures out the logistics of all that then I can let go logistics of all that then I can let go logistics of all that then I can let go of the um ego trip of flying to space of the um ego trip of flying to space of the um ego trip of flying to space and concentrate on supporting those who and concentrate on supporting those who and concentrate on supporting those who do and building good storytelling for do and building good storytelling for do and building good storytelling for them and telling a story and help people them and telling a story and help people them and telling a story and help people to see the importance of it. We don't go to see the importance of it. We don't go to see the importance of it. We don't go to Mars because we've [ __ ] up planet to Mars because we've [ __ ] up planet to Mars because we've [ __ ] up planet Earth and are looking for a new home by Earth and are looking for a new home by Earth and are looking for a new home by colonizing Mars. We go to better colonizing Mars. We go to better colonizing Mars. We go to better understand our resources here on Earth understand our resources here on Earth understand our resources here on Earth and Mars is our sister planet and we can and Mars is our sister planet and we can and Mars is our sister planet and we can see in Mars a distant future of what see in Mars a distant future of what see in Mars a distant future of what could be on Earth and that's what could be on Earth and that's what could be on Earth and that's what science does. It's comparative. All that science does. It's comparative. All that science does. It's comparative. All that to say uh is that I I find my to say uh is that I I find my to say uh is that I I find my authenticity by really studying and authenticity by really studying and authenticity by really studying and understanding who who I am and then the understanding who who I am and then the understanding who who I am and then the objects that come are an expression of objects that come are an expression of objects that come are an expression of who I am. And and I think this goes back who I am. And and I think this goes back who I am. And and I think this goes back to early childhood stuff where I was to early childhood stuff where I was to early childhood stuff where I was always trying to fit in and in high always trying to fit in and in high always trying to fit in and in high school wearing those stupid 3/4length school wearing those stupid 3/4length school wearing those stupid 3/4length baseball t-shirts, you know, with a baseball t-shirts, you know, with a baseball t-shirts, you know, with a >> ranger neck and a different color on the >> ranger neck and a different color on the >> ranger neck and a different color on the sleeve because all the kids wore those sleeve because all the kids wore those sleeve because all the kids wore those in painters pants in painters pants in painters pants >> and always feeling like such a douche, >> and always feeling like such a douche, >> and always feeling like such a douche, but like I wanted to fit in cuz I didn't but like I wanted to fit in cuz I didn't but like I wanted to fit in cuz I didn't want to be alienated. I wanted to be want to be alienated. I wanted to be want to be alienated. I wanted to be part of the community. And it took years part of the community. And it took years part of the community. And it took years to find my own sense of identity through to find my own sense of identity through to find my own sense of identity through study to to find ways of both dressing study to to find ways of both dressing study to to find ways of both dressing myself with clothes that I wear, but myself with clothes that I wear, but myself with clothes that I wear, but also finding an expression through my also finding an expression through my also finding an expression through my art of what are the kind of things that art of what are the kind of things that art of what are the kind of things that I want to make, what are the stories I want to make, what are the stories I want to make, what are the stories that I want to tell, like what's that I want to tell, like what's that I want to tell, like what's authentic and along the way finding all authentic and along the way finding all authentic and along the way finding all kinds of failure and rejection, but kinds of failure and rejection, but kinds of failure and rejection, but learning to tolerate those bad feelings learning to tolerate those bad feelings learning to tolerate those bad feelings to support what I know is true to H to support what I know is true to H to support what I know is true to H there's the maker who is the you know there's the maker who is the you know there's the maker who is the you know kind of primary leading uh you know kind of primary leading uh you know kind of primary leading uh you know character in the in the multiplicity of character in the in the multiplicity of character in the in the multiplicity of Tom Sachs you know personalities but Tom Sachs you know personalities but Tom Sachs you know personalities but there's also I think what I see in your there's also I think what I see in your there's also I think what I see in your work is a deep reverence and and work is a deep reverence and and work is a deep reverence and and spirituality because the things that you spirituality because the things that you spirituality because the things that you make are almost invariably like some make are almost invariably like some make are almost invariably like some form of altar you know there is a there form of altar you know there is a there form of altar you know there is a there is a sacred quality to these objects is a sacred quality to these objects is a sacred quality to these objects that speaks to the ritual like these that speaks to the ritual like these that speaks to the ritual like these workstations or you know the idea of workstations or you know the idea of workstations or you know the idea of organizing your space like this is all organizing your space like this is all organizing your space like this is all about creating an environment for a about creating an environment for a about creating an environment for a transcendent experience transcendent experience transcendent experience >> and whether that's like the discipline >> and whether that's like the discipline >> and whether that's like the discipline of your work or the higher ambition of of your work or the higher ambition of of your work or the higher ambition of we're going to Mars it's all of a piece we're going to Mars it's all of a piece we're going to Mars it's all of a piece with this idea that you know we should with this idea that you know we should with this idea that you know we should have a more reverent relationship with have a more reverent relationship with have a more reverent relationship with the extensions, you know, that we use the extensions, you know, that we use the extensions, you know, that we use every single day as an expression of our every single day as an expression of our every single day as an expression of our imagination and our discipline and our imagination and our discipline and our imagination and our discipline and our daily work. You have these boom boxes daily work. You have these boom boxes daily work. You have these boom boxes and you have these, you know, kind of and you have these, you know, kind of and you have these, you know, kind of cabinets and the display of televisions cabinets and the display of televisions cabinets and the display of televisions for the the Mars program. Like all of for the the Mars program. Like all of for the the Mars program. Like all of these things are they're they're sort of these things are they're they're sort of these things are they're they're sort of cathedrals in their own right. Yeah, I cathedrals in their own right. Yeah, I cathedrals in their own right. Yeah, I think it's taken a while to find think it's taken a while to find think it's taken a while to find something that's something that's something that's totally unpretentious. totally unpretentious. totally unpretentious. Like all the things that I make, you can Like all the things that I make, you can Like all the things that I make, you can go buy or visit in a museum or see in a go buy or visit in a museum or see in a go buy or visit in a museum or see in a book. But finding a way to make my own book. But finding a way to make my own book. But finding a way to make my own authentic one is like kind of authentic one is like kind of authentic one is like kind of preposterous. It's like everything in preposterous. It's like everything in preposterous. It's like everything in this book if you to describe it in words this book if you to describe it in words this book if you to describe it in words sounds kind of dumb or remedial but sounds kind of dumb or remedial but sounds kind of dumb or remedial but through the execution the work it through the execution the work it through the execution the work it resonates resonates resonates for me and maybe others with with kind for me and maybe others with with kind for me and maybe others with with kind of with like the sublime like that might of with like the sublime like that might of with like the sublime like that might sound like a brag or a flex but that's sound like a brag or a flex but that's sound like a brag or a flex but that's when it's successful it works when it's successful it works when it's successful it works but it only comes through being really but it only comes through being really but it only comes through being really honest with what your motivations are. honest with what your motivations are. honest with what your motivations are. So So So for me, when you ask like or that the my for me, when you ask like or that the my for me, when you ask like or that the my studio is the best artwork, it's because studio is the best artwork, it's because studio is the best artwork, it's because I spend so much time organizing my tools I spend so much time organizing my tools I spend so much time organizing my tools so that when inspiration strikes, I can so that when inspiration strikes, I can so that when inspiration strikes, I can just go for it and catching the big just go for it and catching the big just go for it and catching the big fish. David Lynch talks about um when fish. David Lynch talks about um when fish. David Lynch talks about um when you don't know what to do, um organize you don't know what to do, um organize you don't know what to do, um organize your paint so that when inspiration your paint so that when inspiration your paint so that when inspiration strikes, you don't have to take time, go strikes, you don't have to take time, go strikes, you don't have to take time, go to the store and buy red paint. It's to the store and buy red paint. It's to the store and buy red paint. It's just there with your left hand. You put just there with your left hand. You put just there with your left hand. You put it in your right hand, you apply in the it in your right hand, you apply in the it in your right hand, you apply in the canvas because the muse, the inspiration canvas because the muse, the inspiration canvas because the muse, the inspiration is so fleeting. So when you don't know is so fleeting. So when you don't know is so fleeting. So when you don't know what to do, when you've got a writer's what to do, when you've got a writer's what to do, when you've got a writer's block, spend time organizing your your block, spend time organizing your your block, spend time organizing your your stuff. It's kind of like stuff. It's kind of like stuff. It's kind of like >> always be nulling is your version of >> always be nulling is your version of >> always be nulling is your version of that. Explain what that means. that. Explain what that means. that. Explain what that means. >> So nulling is just organizing your >> So nulling is just organizing your >> So nulling is just organizing your tools. So lining everything up in 90° or tools. So lining everything up in 90° or tools. So lining everything up in 90° or or or parallel lines so that it um looks or or parallel lines so that it um looks or or parallel lines so that it um looks clean and organized so that your mind clean and organized so that your mind clean and organized so that your mind isn't I'm caught up with the mess in isn't I'm caught up with the mess in isn't I'm caught up with the mess in front of you. Sometimes nulling isn't front of you. Sometimes nulling isn't front of you. Sometimes nulling isn't really cleaning up at all, but it is a really cleaning up at all, but it is a really cleaning up at all, but it is a form of meditation and becoming at one form of meditation and becoming at one form of meditation and becoming at one with your environment. Um, and I I think with your environment. Um, and I I think with your environment. Um, and I I think it's always um it's always worth doing. it's always um it's always worth doing. it's always um it's always worth doing. So, So, So, >> I mean, you could call it OCD or you can >> I mean, you could call it OCD or you can >> I mean, you could call it OCD or you can call it procrastination or you can call call it procrastination or you can call call it procrastination or you can call it warming up. Like, I I do this like I it warming up. Like, I I do this like I it warming up. Like, I I do this like I am meticulous about this and and there's am meticulous about this and and there's am meticulous about this and and there's a reason for it. So, I made a bet with a reason for it. So, I made a bet with a reason for it. So, I made a bet with my son because we were building a Lego my son because we were building a Lego my son because we were building a Lego set and I don't know if you've built a set and I don't know if you've built a set and I don't know if you've built a Lego set recently. Lego set recently. Lego set recently. >> No, I don't know. My kids are older. >> No, I don't know. My kids are older. >> No, I don't know. My kids are older. >> There's always this moment where you're >> There's always this moment where you're >> There's always this moment where you're like, "Fuck, those [ __ ] didn't like, "Fuck, those [ __ ] didn't like, "Fuck, those [ __ ] didn't include include include a black one by one tile and I need it a black one by one tile and I need it a black one by one tile and I need it for this move. I know they didn't for this move. I know they didn't for this move. I know they didn't include it and I can't find it include it and I can't find it include it and I can't find it anywhere." And they never miss it. You anywhere." And they never miss it. You anywhere." And they never miss it. You just misplaced it. So, I made a deal just misplaced it. So, I made a deal just misplaced it. So, I made a deal with him. I said, he's like, "Dad, I with him. I said, he's like, "Dad, I with him. I said, he's like, "Dad, I can't, Dad. Uh, Dad, uh, I can't can't, Dad. Uh, Dad, uh, I can't can't, Dad. Uh, Dad, uh, I can't find this one by one tile." And I said, find this one by one tile." And I said, find this one by one tile." And I said, "Have you looked everywhere?" And he "Have you looked everywhere?" And he "Have you looked everywhere?" And he said, "Yeah." And I looked in the table. said, "Yeah." And I looked in the table. said, "Yeah." And I looked in the table. It's just array a big mess. And I said, It's just array a big mess. And I said, It's just array a big mess. And I said, "It's there on the table. Null "It's there on the table. Null "It's there on the table. Null everything and you'll find it." And he everything and you'll find it." And he everything and you'll find it." And he said, "No." And I said, "Okay, if you said, "No." And I said, "Okay, if you said, "No." And I said, "Okay, if you null anything everything and it's not null anything everything and it's not null anything everything and it's not there, I'll give you $1,000." there, I'll give you $1,000." there, I'll give you $1,000." >> Mhm. >> Mhm. >> Mhm. >> And I was really I was kind of like >> And I was really I was kind of like >> And I was really I was kind of like [ __ ] myself a little bit because [ __ ] myself a little bit because [ __ ] myself a little bit because because I wasn't I I didn't see it because I wasn't I I didn't see it because I wasn't I I didn't see it either. That's a pretty big incentive either. That's a pretty big incentive either. That's a pretty big incentive for a young person. for a young person. for a young person. >> And he nolled the entire table and and >> And he nolled the entire table and and >> And he nolled the entire table and and he found it and it was there. he found it and it was there. he found it and it was there. >> And the message is >> And the message is >> And the message is >> always be nulling. >> always be nulling. >> always be nulling. Always be knowing. Always get your Always be knowing. Always get your Always be knowing. Always get your environment perfectly organized and then environment perfectly organized and then environment perfectly organized and then things will appear. And if you ever do a things will appear. And if you ever do a things will appear. And if you ever do a Lego set, it's worth it to null the Lego set, it's worth it to null the Lego set, it's worth it to null the entire kit and it goes together faster. entire kit and it goes together faster. entire kit and it goes together faster. >> Set the environment up that's conducive >> Set the environment up that's conducive >> Set the environment up that's conducive for the inspiration and the workmanship for the inspiration and the workmanship for the inspiration and the workmanship in advance. in advance. in advance. Perfectly said. Because it's hard making Perfectly said. Because it's hard making Perfectly said. Because it's hard making art. There's there are problems along art. There's there are problems along art. There's there are problems along the way. There are tons of pitfalls and the way. There are tons of pitfalls and the way. There are tons of pitfalls and you will get stuck. The wall will be you will get stuck. The wall will be you will get stuck. The wall will be there there there >> because it's fleeting. You get tired. >> because it's fleeting. You get tired. >> because it's fleeting. You get tired. You get hungry, thirsty, and the wall is You get hungry, thirsty, and the wall is You get hungry, thirsty, and the wall is inevitable because inevitable because inevitable because you're doing something new. If you had you're doing something new. If you had you're doing something new. If you had already done it before, it would be already done it before, it would be already done it before, it would be easy. Or if someone had already done it easy. Or if someone had already done it easy. Or if someone had already done it before, it would be easy. You'd just be before, it would be easy. You'd just be before, it would be easy. You'd just be copying it. because it's something new, copying it. because it's something new, copying it. because it's something new, there are inevitable problems and there are inevitable problems and there are inevitable problems and pitfalls that you have to work through pitfalls that you have to work through pitfalls that you have to work through and it's very very very difficult and we and it's very very very difficult and we and it's very very very difficult and we don't give ourselves enough credit for don't give ourselves enough credit for don't give ourselves enough credit for how difficult it is. And so things like how difficult it is. And so things like how difficult it is. And so things like nulling your tools is a way of making it nulling your tools is a way of making it nulling your tools is a way of making it easier for you to get through something easier for you to get through something easier for you to get through something or for when you have just a glimmer of or for when you have just a glimmer of or for when you have just a glimmer of an idea to expand on it. Like I remember an idea to expand on it. Like I remember an idea to expand on it. Like I remember once I was breaking a hole in concrete once I was breaking a hole in concrete once I was breaking a hole in concrete um and I was hammering and chiseling and um and I was hammering and chiseling and um and I was hammering and chiseling and I and I was like [ __ ] I got to go to I and I was like [ __ ] I got to go to I and I was like [ __ ] I got to go to Home Depot and rent one of those giant Home Depot and rent one of those giant Home Depot and rent one of those giant hammers that are really expensive and it hammers that are really expensive and it hammers that are really expensive and it was going to take two hours. And um my was going to take two hours. And um my was going to take two hours. And um my friend Vincent friend Vincent friend Vincent said, "Go get a drill." I'm like, "I I said, "Go get a drill." I'm like, "I I said, "Go get a drill." I'm like, "I I got a drill. My drill's not powerful got a drill. My drill's not powerful got a drill. My drill's not powerful enough." He's like, "No, a drill is" He enough." He's like, "No, a drill is" He enough." He's like, "No, a drill is" He was from Montego Bay. A drill is another was from Montego Bay. A drill is another was from Montego Bay. A drill is another word for a chisel. word for a chisel. word for a chisel. the I was like, "No, the drill is the the I was like, "No, the drill is the the I was like, "No, the drill is the machine." He's like, "No, it's the drill machine." He's like, "No, it's the drill machine." He's like, "No, it's the drill bit and what you're doing is you're bit and what you're doing is you're bit and what you're doing is you're drilling." I'm like, "But it's not drilling." I'm like, "But it's not drilling." I'm like, "But it's not turning." He's like, "It's still called turning." He's like, "It's still called turning." He's like, "It's still called a drill." a drill." a drill." >> And I was like, "Okay, why?" And he's he >> And I was like, "Okay, why?" And he's he >> And I was like, "Okay, why?" And he's he took it and he put it onto the ground took it and he put it onto the ground took it and he put it onto the ground and he made a tiny little chip this big, and he made a tiny little chip this big, and he made a tiny little chip this big, like a quarter of an inch with this with like a quarter of an inch with this with like a quarter of an inch with this with this cold chisel. And then he did one this cold chisel. And then he did one this cold chisel. And then he did one next to it. He did six or seven hits. next to it. He did six or seven hits. next to it. He did six or seven hits. And then finally, he got a hole that was And then finally, he got a hole that was And then finally, he got a hole that was the size of a quarter. And then he built the size of a quarter. And then he built the size of a quarter. And then he built it into a hole this big. and he with a it into a hole this big. and he with a it into a hole this big. and he with a tiny chisel built a hole out from a just tiny chisel built a hole out from a just tiny chisel built a hole out from a just from tenacity on one little point. He from tenacity on one little point. He from tenacity on one little point. He loaded all of his strength onto one loaded all of his strength onto one loaded all of his strength onto one point and finally built a hole big point and finally built a hole big point and finally built a hole big enough. And now once the hole got big, I enough. And now once the hole got big, I enough. And now once the hole got big, I could build it hit it with a big hammer could build it hit it with a big hammer could build it hit it with a big hammer and it broke apart. But my point is the and it broke apart. But my point is the and it broke apart. But my point is the trip to Home Depot and back and trip to Home Depot and back and trip to Home Depot and back and returning it would have taken 3 hours or returning it would have taken 3 hours or returning it would have taken 3 hours or something. And he just focused onto something. And he just focused onto something. And he just focused onto something that was really hard and he something that was really hard and he something that was really hard and he hit that little corner like 20 times hit that little corner like 20 times hit that little corner like 20 times before that little chip came out. But it before that little chip came out. But it before that little chip came out. But it worked. And and I think that's a great worked. And and I think that's a great worked. And and I think that's a great analogy for breaking through the wall. analogy for breaking through the wall. analogy for breaking through the wall. It's a tiny little crack that you have It's a tiny little crack that you have It's a tiny little crack that you have to expand, but you have to have the the to expand, but you have to have the the to expand, but you have to have the the tenacity, strength, and and experience tenacity, strength, and and experience tenacity, strength, and and experience to know how to do it. And I didn't know to know how to do it. And I didn't know to know how to do it. And I didn't know how to do it. Staying in it and not how to do it. Staying in it and not how to do it. Staying in it and not taking yourself out of it until you see taking yourself out of it until you see taking yourself out of it until you see yourself all the way through it with the yourself all the way through it with the yourself all the way through it with the tools that you have available to you. tools that you have available to you. tools that you have available to you. >> Yes. But also not being ashamed. wife >> Yes. But also not being ashamed. wife >> Yes. But also not being ashamed. wife was ashamed because I was I'd given up was ashamed because I was I'd given up was ashamed because I was I'd given up and I was going to go this wimpy way out and I was going to go this wimpy way out and I was going to go this wimpy way out and go all the way to Home Depot to rent and go all the way to Home Depot to rent and go all the way to Home Depot to rent a drill, a a a jackhammer. It seems so a drill, a a a jackhammer. It seems so a drill, a a a jackhammer. It seems so dumb and it and it was dumb and it and it was dumb and it and it was >> but this speaks to this acronym that you >> but this speaks to this acronym that you >> but this speaks to this acronym that you have this ISRU idea have this ISRU idea have this ISRU idea >> which stands for insitue >> which stands for insitue >> which stands for insitue uh resources what's the utilization uh resources what's the utilization uh resources what's the utilization utilization which is basically like use utilization which is basically like use utilization which is basically like use what you have like you you should null what you have like you you should null what you have like you you should null your your you always be nulling but it's your your you always be nulling but it's your your you always be nulling but it's not about going out and getting the tool not about going out and getting the tool not about going out and getting the tool that you don't have it's about using that you don't have it's about using that you don't have it's about using what you have in creative ways PH. what you have in creative ways PH. what you have in creative ways PH. It's the idea of like the movie on a low It's the idea of like the movie on a low It's the idea of like the movie on a low budget that's better because it was budget that's better because it was budget that's better because it was crafted under constraints, right? Like crafted under constraints, right? Like crafted under constraints, right? Like the the creativity comes out of the the the creativity comes out of the the the creativity comes out of the constraints, not out of having all of constraints, not out of having all of constraints, not out of having all of the resources available to you. the resources available to you. the resources available to you. >> Yes. Um it's another word for bolage, >> Yes. Um it's another word for bolage, >> Yes. Um it's another word for bolage, which means to build or repair with which means to build or repair with which means to build or repair with available limited resources. ISRU is uh available limited resources. ISRU is uh available limited resources. ISRU is uh INC2 resource utilization and it's a INC2 resource utilization and it's a INC2 resource utilization and it's a protocol that NASA's been working on protocol that NASA's been working on protocol that NASA's been working on since the late 1950s during the since the late 1950s during the since the late 1950s during the invention of the Cold War, which is uh invention of the Cold War, which is uh invention of the Cold War, which is uh instead of bringing the resources of instead of bringing the resources of instead of bringing the resources of Earth to Mars, make a machine, send it a Earth to Mars, make a machine, send it a Earth to Mars, make a machine, send it a generation before the astronauts are generation before the astronauts are generation before the astronauts are born to generate breathable air, born to generate breathable air, born to generate breathable air, drinkable water, and rocket fuel for a drinkable water, and rocket fuel for a drinkable water, and rocket fuel for a return trip home. run this thing for 50 return trip home. run this thing for 50 return trip home. run this thing for 50 years years years and then use it slowly collect the and then use it slowly collect the and then use it slowly collect the natural resources. Kind of like on a natural resources. Kind of like on a natural resources. Kind of like on a camping trip, you don't bring a bottle camping trip, you don't bring a bottle camping trip, you don't bring a bottle of water, you bring a water filter and of water, you bring a water filter and of water, you bring a water filter and you can drink out of a stream cuz water you can drink out of a stream cuz water you can drink out of a stream cuz water is the heaviest thing and you need a lot is the heaviest thing and you need a lot is the heaviest thing and you need a lot of it when you're camping. Um, I'd say of it when you're camping. Um, I'd say of it when you're camping. Um, I'd say that's the most common ISRU tool. But that's the most common ISRU tool. But that's the most common ISRU tool. But the entire studio is ISRU and everything the entire studio is ISRU and everything the entire studio is ISRU and everything we do comes from not having resources we do comes from not having resources we do comes from not having resources and scavenging them. But then how do you and scavenging them. But then how do you and scavenging them. But then how do you be authentic when you've been doing be authentic when you've been doing be authentic when you've been doing something for 40 years and all of a something for 40 years and all of a something for 40 years and all of a sudden you have resources? Well, I would sudden you have resources? Well, I would sudden you have resources? Well, I would say even the great NASA is underfunded. say even the great NASA is underfunded. say even the great NASA is underfunded. If we had unlimited resources, we'd be If we had unlimited resources, we'd be If we had unlimited resources, we'd be on Europa now checking out the octopuses on Europa now checking out the octopuses on Europa now checking out the octopuses that are swimming beneath the the frozen that are swimming beneath the the frozen that are swimming beneath the the frozen 2 m thick crust of the smoothest object 2 m thick crust of the smoothest object 2 m thick crust of the smoothest object known in the universe, the planet known known in the universe, the planet known known in the universe, the planet known as Europa, the icy moon of Jupiter. But as Europa, the icy moon of Jupiter. But as Europa, the icy moon of Jupiter. But what you get is what you just described what you get is what you just described what you get is what you just described is when you when you have your limited is when you when you have your limited is when you when you have your limited resources or you push your resources to resources or you push your resources to resources or you push your resources to the max, you start to get artifact, the max, you start to get artifact, the max, you start to get artifact, evidence, fingerprints, scuffs, truths evidence, fingerprints, scuffs, truths evidence, fingerprints, scuffs, truths of how the process is made that shows a of how the process is made that shows a of how the process is made that shows a human being was there. So ISRU is a is a protocol that NASA's used, but we is a protocol that NASA's used, but we also use it in the studio as a way of also use it in the studio as a way of also use it in the studio as a way of teaching ritual. It's a project that we teaching ritual. It's a project that we teaching ritual. It's a project that we do and you can it's a it's an app and do and you can it's a it's an app and do and you can it's a it's an app and you can get it on the uh app store under you can get it on the uh app store under you can get it on the uh app store under Tom Sachs or Google Play or under ISAU Tom Sachs or Google Play or under ISAU Tom Sachs or Google Play or under ISAU and it's a game and we do rituals or the and it's a game and we do rituals or the and it's a game and we do rituals or the idea is to um uh break your habits by idea is to um uh break your habits by idea is to um uh break your habits by building rituals and what it does is building rituals and what it does is building rituals and what it does is help you get in touch with your help you get in touch with your help you get in touch with your creativity in a positive way. So like my creativity in a positive way. So like my creativity in a positive way. So like my number one most famous f favorite one is number one most famous f favorite one is number one most famous f favorite one is um output before input. We've spoken um output before input. We've spoken um output before input. We've spoken about it before. So every day before you about it before. So every day before you about it before. So every day before you look at your phone, do a drawing, build look at your phone, do a drawing, build look at your phone, do a drawing, build something in clay, something in clay, something in clay, even just make a mark and take a picture even just make a mark and take a picture even just make a mark and take a picture of it and upload it and you get a point of it and upload it and you get a point of it and upload it and you get a point for doing that. for doing that. for doing that. >> Or another one that I like to do um is >> Or another one that I like to do um is >> Or another one that I like to do um is out and back. Set your watch run for 10 out and back. Set your watch run for 10 out and back. Set your watch run for 10 minutes. minutes. minutes. When you when your watch goes off in 10 When you when your watch goes off in 10 When you when your watch goes off in 10 minutes, mark the ground with chalk or minutes, mark the ground with chalk or minutes, mark the ground with chalk or take a photo if you have a camera with take a photo if you have a camera with take a photo if you have a camera with you or mark it with a stone or just you or mark it with a stone or just you or mark it with a stone or just maybe even just look and remember and maybe even just look and remember and maybe even just look and remember and that's called your bingo point. Bingo that's called your bingo point. Bingo that's called your bingo point. Bingo point is a when the rescue helicopter point is a when the rescue helicopter point is a when the rescue helicopter goes out to see and it uses exactly half goes out to see and it uses exactly half goes out to see and it uses exactly half its amount of fuel and it has to return its amount of fuel and it has to return its amount of fuel and it has to return back. Even if they can see the the the back. Even if they can see the the the back. Even if they can see the the the victims of the disaster, they have to victims of the disaster, they have to victims of the disaster, they have to turn back or else everyone dies. So that turn back or else everyone dies. So that turn back or else everyone dies. So that bingo point's really critical. And also bingo point's really critical. And also bingo point's really critical. And also if you run the same route every day out if you run the same route every day out if you run the same route every day out and back, you can measure your speed by and back, you can measure your speed by and back, you can measure your speed by how far you've traveled, which is an how far you've traveled, which is an how far you've traveled, which is an interesting um vector. And then so when interesting um vector. And then so when interesting um vector. And then so when you get back, you I always write in my you get back, you I always write in my you get back, you I always write in my journal um my in my runner's log what I journal um my in my runner's log what I journal um my in my runner's log what I saw, the route I take, what sneakers I saw, the route I take, what sneakers I saw, the route I take, what sneakers I ran with, the weather, who I was with, ran with, the weather, who I was with, ran with, the weather, who I was with, if I was hungry, some any data. So I if I was hungry, some any data. So I if I was hungry, some any data. So I have this beautiful notebook of all the have this beautiful notebook of all the have this beautiful notebook of all the and then th those are also available on and then th those are also available on and then th those are also available on the um uh web store which shameless the um uh web store which shameless the um uh web store which shameless self-help artist. self-help artist. self-help artist. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. But you can But you can But you can >> creating like you know accountability uh >> creating like you know accountability uh >> creating like you know accountability uh you know habit building apps. you know habit building apps. you know habit building apps. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> When you're not building space programs. >> When you're not building space programs. >> When you're not building space programs. >> But you know the irony isn't lost on me >> But you know the irony isn't lost on me >> But you know the irony isn't lost on me that you we are using a an app to help that you we are using a an app to help that you we are using a an app to help you beat your cell phone addiction. you beat your cell phone addiction. you beat your cell phone addiction. Right. But we do this and we have a Right. But we do this and we have a Right. But we do this and we have a leaderboard and there's a contest and leaderboard and there's a contest and leaderboard and there's a contest and people at the top of the leaderboard people at the top of the leaderboard people at the top of the leaderboard have access to buy sneakers and other have access to buy sneakers and other have access to buy sneakers and other studio stuff. So, studio stuff. So, studio stuff. So, >> well, it's, you know, it speaks to the >> well, it's, you know, it speaks to the >> well, it's, you know, it speaks to the core contradiction at the heart of the core contradiction at the heart of the core contradiction at the heart of the work. Like, as much as you have work. Like, as much as you have work. Like, as much as you have something to say about consumerism, something to say about consumerism, something to say about consumerism, uh, you're doing collaborations with uh, you're doing collaborations with uh, you're doing collaborations with brands like Nike. like you you know you brands like Nike. like you you know you brands like Nike. like you you know you have these this legendary you know kind have these this legendary you know kind have these this legendary you know kind of like history with them of creating of like history with them of creating of like history with them of creating these you know sneaker lines and apparel these you know sneaker lines and apparel these you know sneaker lines and apparel lines with them. So you know while lines with them. So you know while lines with them. So you know while you're also you know kind of speaking you're also you know kind of speaking you're also you know kind of speaking about our relationship to uh you know about our relationship to uh you know about our relationship to uh you know our spending habits and what that says our spending habits and what that says our spending habits and what that says about us as human beings. about us as human beings. about us as human beings. >> Yeah, there's there's some paradox >> Yeah, there's there's some paradox >> Yeah, there's there's some paradox there. But I but I also think that you there. But I but I also think that you there. But I but I also think that you know if if consumerism is our religion, know if if consumerism is our religion, know if if consumerism is our religion, it's certainly my religion. speak for it's certainly my religion. speak for it's certainly my religion. speak for myself then um if I'm going to be a myself then um if I'm going to be a myself then um if I'm going to be a critique of consumerism critique of consumerism critique of consumerism first in order for that to be an first in order for that to be an first in order for that to be an authentic gesture I must be a authentic gesture I must be a authentic gesture I must be a participant and I am an active participant and I am an active participant and I am an active participant and I do have a car and I do participant and I do have a car and I do participant and I do have a car and I do have um sneakers and stuff and have um sneakers and stuff and have um sneakers and stuff and I'm very critical of it and I find that I'm very critical of it and I find that I'm very critical of it and I find that as a way to express as a way to express as a way to express my apprehension, ambivalence, my apprehension, ambivalence, my apprehension, ambivalence, contradiction but with ISRU you, it's an contradiction but with ISRU you, it's an contradiction but with ISRU you, it's an opportunity to utilize this incredibly opportunity to utilize this incredibly opportunity to utilize this incredibly powerful storytelling apparatus known as powerful storytelling apparatus known as powerful storytelling apparatus known as Nike to share conceptual art. So, for Nike to share conceptual art. So, for Nike to share conceptual art. So, for example, this semester we're teaching example, this semester we're teaching example, this semester we're teaching you how to tie knots and take you how to tie knots and take you how to tie knots and take photographs and um how to use a furiki, photographs and um how to use a furiki, photographs and um how to use a furiki, which is a um Japanese traditional cloth which is a um Japanese traditional cloth which is a um Japanese traditional cloth that's used to wrap a gift or to carry that's used to wrap a gift or to carry that's used to wrap a gift or to carry something that's too big or dirty to go something that's too big or dirty to go something that's too big or dirty to go in your backpack. So finding a way with in your backpack. So finding a way with in your backpack. So finding a way with just a regular piece of fabric to tell a just a regular piece of fabric to tell a just a regular piece of fabric to tell a story of of carrying something. story of of carrying something. story of of carrying something. >> You have furniture designs, you're >> You have furniture designs, you're >> You have furniture designs, you're working with all different kinds of working with all different kinds of working with all different kinds of materials. You're working with brands materials. You're working with brands materials. You're working with brands and creating consumer products. Uh like and creating consumer products. Uh like and creating consumer products. Uh like is there a line between what one would is there a line between what one would is there a line between what one would consider, you know, design, industrial consider, you know, design, industrial consider, you know, design, industrial design or fine art, or do you not even design or fine art, or do you not even design or fine art, or do you not even like think about those distinctions? like think about those distinctions? like think about those distinctions? >> Art's a verb and not a noun. Um, I don't >> Art's a verb and not a noun. Um, I don't >> Art's a verb and not a noun. Um, I don't care if it's a sculpture or a painting care if it's a sculpture or a painting care if it's a sculpture or a painting or a poem or a podcast or a book, um, or or a poem or a podcast or a book, um, or or a poem or a podcast or a book, um, or a sneaker or a chair. It's all sculpture a sneaker or a chair. It's all sculpture a sneaker or a chair. It's all sculpture to me. And I I think all of those things to me. And I I think all of those things to me. And I I think all of those things are very different and they have are very different and they have are very different and they have different qualities and benefits and different qualities and benefits and different qualities and benefits and attributes and advantages and attributes and advantages and attributes and advantages and disadvantages. and making something in disadvantages. and making something in disadvantages. and making something in industry is a lot harder than making industry is a lot harder than making industry is a lot harder than making something in the studio, but you get to something in the studio, but you get to something in the studio, but you get to make a lot more of them and reach more make a lot more of them and reach more make a lot more of them and reach more people than the oneoff that's in the people than the oneoff that's in the people than the oneoff that's in the studio. So, all these things have studio. So, all these things have studio. So, all these things have different pros and cons, but the different pros and cons, but the different pros and cons, but the approach is exactly the same. And one of approach is exactly the same. And one of approach is exactly the same. And one of the great things about getting to work the great things about getting to work the great things about getting to work with Nike is that it's an amplifier for with Nike is that it's an amplifier for with Nike is that it's an amplifier for the values of the studio, but on a the values of the studio, but on a the values of the studio, but on a larger scale. And one of the problems is larger scale. And one of the problems is larger scale. And one of the problems is find is making sure that we always do find is making sure that we always do find is making sure that we always do that with a degree of authenticity that with a degree of authenticity that with a degree of authenticity because the the studio's strength is in because the the studio's strength is in because the the studio's strength is in the handmade and in the one-off. So the handmade and in the one-off. So the handmade and in the one-off. So finding ways of telling that story finding ways of telling that story finding ways of telling that story that's consistent. It just takes a that's consistent. It just takes a that's consistent. It just takes a little bit extra time. That's why we we little bit extra time. That's why we we little bit extra time. That's why we we sort of we make this um ISRU instruction sort of we make this um ISRU instruction sort of we make this um ISRU instruction manual to help give you a window into manual to help give you a window into manual to help give you a window into that like that like that like >> not to explain it away but to help give >> not to explain it away but to help give >> not to explain it away but to help give you some inspiration like all the things you some inspiration like all the things you some inspiration like all the things you can do with like with a piece of you can do with like with a piece of you can do with like with a piece of fabric like a hundred different things fabric like a hundred different things fabric like a hundred different things from one piece of fabric and that's from one piece of fabric and that's from one piece of fabric and that's those are just suggestions. They're those are just suggestions. They're those are just suggestions. They're probably more probably more probably more >> well what's great is that uh you know >> well what's great is that uh you know >> well what's great is that uh you know before the book even begins in guide to before the book even begins in guide to before the book even begins in guide to the guide you say this is a book about the guide you say this is a book about the guide you say this is a book about art which is not the same thing as it art which is not the same thing as it art which is not the same thing as it being an art book. It's a guide. It is being an art book. It's a guide. It is being an art book. It's a guide. It is not for display. It takes you places. not for display. It takes you places. not for display. It takes you places. Still, that it contains some of the art Still, that it contains some of the art Still, that it contains some of the art world's pawis of pseudo intellectual world's pawis of pseudo intellectual world's pawis of pseudo intellectual [ __ ] could be seen as being [ __ ] could be seen as being [ __ ] could be seen as being inevitable. You'll see words like inevitable. You'll see words like inevitable. You'll see words like brolage and recontextualizing. These brolage and recontextualizing. These brolage and recontextualizing. These terms seem pretentious because you terms seem pretentious because you terms seem pretentious because you rarely need them in everyday life, but rarely need them in everyday life, but rarely need them in everyday life, but they do clarify with precision the they do clarify with precision the they do clarify with precision the ideas, techniques, and methods we use ideas, techniques, and methods we use ideas, techniques, and methods we use all the time. We're stuck with them. So all the time. We're stuck with them. So all the time. We're stuck with them. So there's a resistance to kind of the there's a resistance to kind of the there's a resistance to kind of the tropes of the art world and the tropes of the art world and the tropes of the art world and the pretention you know that uh you know is pretention you know that uh you know is pretention you know that uh you know is you know is you know kind of this you know is you know kind of this you know is you know kind of this environment in which you operate that's environment in which you operate that's environment in which you operate that's so off-putting to uh the average person so off-putting to uh the average person so off-putting to uh the average person and makes it difficult for them to and makes it difficult for them to and makes it difficult for them to connect their own human experience to connect their own human experience to connect their own human experience to the expression of you know someone like the expression of you know someone like the expression of you know someone like yourself who's trying to say something yourself who's trying to say something yourself who's trying to say something relatable and evocative that could be relatable and evocative that could be relatable and evocative that could be you know revoly for the observer. I you know revoly for the observer. I you know revoly for the observer. I despise the elitism of the art world. Of despise the elitism of the art world. Of despise the elitism of the art world. Of course, it benefit from it because I got course, it benefit from it because I got course, it benefit from it because I got to do all this great stuff, but it's to do all this great stuff, but it's to do all this great stuff, but it's it's not where I come from. I didn't it's not where I come from. I didn't it's not where I come from. I didn't come from an art family. I went to the come from an art family. I went to the come from an art family. I went to the Museum of Modern Art for the first time Museum of Modern Art for the first time Museum of Modern Art for the first time when I was in college, and it's not when I was in college, and it's not when I was in college, and it's not where I come from. And art still is is where I come from. And art still is is where I come from. And art still is is super alienating. And most art writing super alienating. And most art writing super alienating. And most art writing is, this is going to sound really is, this is going to sound really is, this is going to sound really cynical, but it seems to conceal the cynical, but it seems to conceal the cynical, but it seems to conceal the lack of intelligence of the art writer lack of intelligence of the art writer lack of intelligence of the art writer by using unnecessarily complex words. by using unnecessarily complex words. by using unnecessarily complex words. Yet, I've been really inspired by art. Yet, I've been really inspired by art. Yet, I've been really inspired by art. There are some artists who have really There are some artists who have really There are some artists who have really brought me to great places. And I don't brought me to great places. And I don't brought me to great places. And I don't mean artists like Failouti and James mean artists like Failouti and James mean artists like Failouti and James Brown and Ella Fitzgerald. I mean weird Brown and Ella Fitzgerald. I mean weird Brown and Ella Fitzgerald. I mean weird artists like Chris Burden and Yokoono artists like Chris Burden and Yokoono artists like Chris Burden and Yokoono and uh Solowit uh conceptual artists. Um and uh Solowit uh conceptual artists. Um and uh Solowit uh conceptual artists. Um but the ideas but the ideas but the ideas are for everyone and there's almost it are for everyone and there's almost it are for everyone and there's almost it sounds like almost like an art world sounds like almost like an art world sounds like almost like an art world conspiracy to protect these ideas and conspiracy to protect these ideas and conspiracy to protect these ideas and keep them from reaching mass audience. keep them from reaching mass audience. keep them from reaching mass audience. And there's a there some museums have a And there's a there some museums have a And there's a there some museums have a pedagogical department pedagogical department pedagogical department to eliminate that, but it seems they're to eliminate that, but it seems they're to eliminate that, but it seems they're there more to reinforce it. there more to reinforce it. there more to reinforce it. >> So, I'm always working very hard in my >> So, I'm always working very hard in my >> So, I'm always working very hard in my work to make sure that everyone can work to make sure that everyone can work to make sure that everyone can understand it. There's an incredible understand it. There's an incredible understand it. There's an incredible essay in here about my um my cousin essay in here about my um my cousin essay in here about my um my cousin Marty who is a used car salesman from Marty who is a used car salesman from Marty who is a used car salesman from Long Island who uh said um to one of my Long Island who uh said um to one of my Long Island who uh said um to one of my he said he looked was looking at a he said he looked was looking at a he said he looked was looking at a painting of mine that was like a duct painting of mine that was like a duct painting of mine that was like a duct tape painting. It was made out of it was tape painting. It was made out of it was tape painting. It was made out of it was a monochrome just a square out of a monochrome just a square out of a monochrome just a square out of crosshatched duct tape. And he said, crosshatched duct tape. And he said, crosshatched duct tape. And he said, "Tommy," and he was like a "Tommy," and he was like a "Tommy," and he was like a kind of like a wise guy, like he like kind of like a wise guy, like he like kind of like a wise guy, like he like talked and acted like someone from Good talked and acted like someone from Good talked and acted like someone from Good Fellas. And he said, "Tommy, Fellas. And he said, "Tommy, Fellas. And he said, "Tommy, I got a personal question for you. What I got a personal question for you. What I got a personal question for you. What does it mean?" And I found myself does it mean?" And I found myself does it mean?" And I found myself fumbling to explain fumbling to explain fumbling to explain Barnett Newman and the history of Barnett Newman and the history of Barnett Newman and the history of abstract expressionism and how the CIA abstract expressionism and how the CIA abstract expressionism and how the CIA uh weaponized abstract expressionism in uh weaponized abstract expressionism in uh weaponized abstract expressionism in the Cold War to prove to say things like the Cold War to prove to say things like the Cold War to prove to say things like even this ridiculous art is what you can even this ridiculous art is what you can even this ridiculous art is what you can do in America. That's how great we are do in America. That's how great we are do in America. That's how great we are and the whole history of abstract art. and the whole history of abstract art. and the whole history of abstract art. And I realized I completely lost the And I realized I completely lost the And I realized I completely lost the guy. And what I should have said was guy. And what I should have said was guy. And what I should have said was something like I just like duct tape. something like I just like duct tape. something like I just like duct tape. I just think it looks cool and I like I just think it looks cool and I like I just think it looks cool and I like things that are simple. I'm not sure things that are simple. I'm not sure things that are simple. I'm not sure that would have completely won them over that would have completely won them over that would have completely won them over either, but it it's hard and I think either, but it it's hard and I think either, but it it's hard and I think that was a moment when I really that was a moment when I really that was a moment when I really struggled with um what art meant to me. struggled with um what art meant to me. struggled with um what art meant to me. But I also remember when Jem Michelle But I also remember when Jem Michelle But I also remember when Jem Michelle Bosat was alive, it was I loved his art, Bosat was alive, it was I loved his art, Bosat was alive, it was I loved his art, but people just thought it was garbage. but people just thought it was garbage. but people just thought it was garbage. Now there's almost like nothing more Now there's almost like nothing more Now there's almost like nothing more expensive than that. And so, but it took expensive than that. And so, but it took expensive than that. And so, but it took time for what he was doing to be time for what he was doing to be time for what he was doing to be assimilated by the mainstream, for assimilated by the mainstream, for assimilated by the mainstream, for graffiti to be a sanctioned activity, graffiti to be a sanctioned activity, graffiti to be a sanctioned activity, for skateboarding to be not a crime. And for skateboarding to be not a crime. And for skateboarding to be not a crime. And it it takes it takes time. Um, but I'm it it takes it takes time. Um, but I'm it it takes it takes time. Um, but I'm impatient, so I want that to happen now. impatient, so I want that to happen now. impatient, so I want that to happen now. And that's why I work really hard to And that's why I work really hard to And that's why I work really hard to make these ideas accessible and to not make these ideas accessible and to not make these ideas accessible and to not use fancy art words. I love art theory. use fancy art words. I love art theory. use fancy art words. I love art theory. I grew up with it. It's how I found my I grew up with it. It's how I found my I grew up with it. It's how I found my calling by, you know, reading, calling by, you know, reading, calling by, you know, reading, I don't know, seeing is forgetting the I don't know, seeing is forgetting the I don't know, seeing is forgetting the name of the thing that one sees by name of the thing that one sees by name of the thing that one sees by Lawrence Wesler or reading Clement Lawrence Wesler or reading Clement Lawrence Wesler or reading Clement Greenberg or Rosyn Krauss. These are Greenberg or Rosyn Krauss. These are Greenberg or Rosyn Krauss. These are like really difficult things to work like really difficult things to work like really difficult things to work your way through. They're they're books, your way through. They're they're books, your way through. They're they're books, but unlike this with pictures, they've but unlike this with pictures, they've but unlike this with pictures, they've got words in them. I don't know if we got words in them. I don't know if we got words in them. I don't know if we even read anymore, but those are the even read anymore, but those are the even read anymore, but those are the kind of books that really help me to kind of books that really help me to kind of books that really help me to like uh get excited about making things. like uh get excited about making things. like uh get excited about making things. And for the person who has the average And for the person who has the average And for the person who has the average person who has the, you know, kind of person who has the, you know, kind of person who has the, you know, kind of arms length relationship with art, maybe arms length relationship with art, maybe arms length relationship with art, maybe a couple times a year they go to a a couple times a year they go to a a couple times a year they go to a museum or when they're, you know, on museum or when they're, you know, on museum or when they're, you know, on vacation they go to the museum in vacation they go to the museum in vacation they go to the museum in whatever city they're in whatever city they're in whatever city they're in >> and that's kind of it. >> and that's kind of it. >> and that's kind of it. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> What is the message that you want to >> What is the message that you want to >> What is the message that you want to convey or the call to action around like convey or the call to action around like convey or the call to action around like the the urgency or the the the urgency or the the the urgency or the uh the importance of having a uh the importance of having a uh the importance of having a relationship with art? relationship with art? relationship with art? I think the first thing is I think the first thing is I think the first thing is there should be a sign on every work of there should be a sign on every work of there should be a sign on every work of art on the wall that says you don't need art on the wall that says you don't need art on the wall that says you don't need to read the sign to understand this art. to read the sign to understand this art. to read the sign to understand this art. And when we go and we see people looking And when we go and we see people looking And when we go and we see people looking at the the explanation because art is so at the the explanation because art is so at the the explanation because art is so bewildering that it's irresistible bewildering that it's irresistible bewildering that it's irresistible around it. The languaging too, it's like around it. The languaging too, it's like around it. The languaging too, it's like it's more it it makes it even more it's more it it makes it even more it's more it it makes it even more difficult to penetrate. difficult to penetrate. difficult to penetrate. >> Yeah. because you have to read an >> Yeah. because you have to read an >> Yeah. because you have to read an interpretation of the thing, look at the interpretation of the thing, look at the interpretation of the thing, look at the thing, see if you if it even lines up thing, see if you if it even lines up thing, see if you if it even lines up with your perception of it. You're with your perception of it. You're with your perception of it. You're you're immediately confused. Edward Tuy you're immediately confused. Edward Tuy you're immediately confused. Edward Tuy said, "If you want to confuse someone, said, "If you want to confuse someone, said, "If you want to confuse someone, project the words onto the wall and read project the words onto the wall and read project the words onto the wall and read them out loud at the same time. They them out loud at the same time. They them out loud at the same time. They will not be able to read it or hear your will not be able to read it or hear your will not be able to read it or hear your voice." You can say the words and have a voice." You can say the words and have a voice." You can say the words and have a picture of something else to evoke a picture of something else to evoke a picture of something else to evoke a feeling, but if you do both, you will feeling, but if you do both, you will feeling, but if you do both, you will lose them. And it's something that lose them. And it's something that lose them. And it's something that happens in every PowerPoint presentation happens in every PowerPoint presentation happens in every PowerPoint presentation everywhere throughout the world. It's everywhere throughout the world. It's everywhere throughout the world. It's the most moronic thing ever. And we've the most moronic thing ever. And we've the most moronic thing ever. And we've all experienced this. People, all experienced this. People, all experienced this. People, >> please stop doing this. >> please stop doing this. >> please stop doing this. >> Um I would say that's the most important >> Um I would say that's the most important >> Um I would say that's the most important thing. I don't use wall texts and thing. I don't use wall texts and thing. I don't use wall texts and sometimes in museums I'm kind of uh it's sometimes in museums I'm kind of uh it's sometimes in museums I'm kind of uh it's always a battle because always a battle because always a battle because the um pedagogical department wants that the um pedagogical department wants that the um pedagogical department wants that because art is extremely threatening because art is extremely threatening because art is extremely threatening because it's a non-compliant because it's a non-compliant because it's a non-compliant experience. It doesn't fit in. You go to experience. It doesn't fit in. You go to experience. It doesn't fit in. You go to this museum where uh you know art goes this museum where uh you know art goes this museum where uh you know art goes to die, but it's there's no other place to die, but it's there's no other place to die, but it's there's no other place to see these non-compliant objects which to see these non-compliant objects which to see these non-compliant objects which are very important because they expand are very important because they expand are very important because they expand our understanding of um what something our understanding of um what something our understanding of um what something can be. can be. can be. And I I think one of the reasons why I And I I think one of the reasons why I And I I think one of the reasons why I love the art of Yokoono is because you love the art of Yokoono is because you love the art of Yokoono is because you can't buy it. There's nothing ever for can't buy it. There's nothing ever for can't buy it. There's nothing ever for sale. You might be able to buy a book sale. You might be able to buy a book sale. You might be able to buy a book about her, but it's all experiential. about her, but it's all experiential. about her, but it's all experiential. It's all performanceoriented. There's no It's all performanceoriented. There's no It's all performanceoriented. There's no thing there. It's just ideas and it's thing there. It's just ideas and it's thing there. It's just ideas and it's exists without the economic um exists without the economic um exists without the economic um constraint. And even if you look at the constraint. And even if you look at the constraint. And even if you look at the great Pablo Picasso, he was perhaps the great Pablo Picasso, he was perhaps the great Pablo Picasso, he was perhaps the ultimate art world artist because his ultimate art world artist because his ultimate art world artist because his things existed in his time um as like things existed in his time um as like things existed in his time um as like money, you know, that they were bought money, you know, that they were bought money, you know, that they were bought and sold. But uh not to diminish the and sold. But uh not to diminish the and sold. But uh not to diminish the quality of what he achieved on the quality of what he achieved on the quality of what he achieved on the canvas, but um they were consumerous canvas, but um they were consumerous canvas, but um they were consumerous objects from from the very beginning. objects from from the very beginning. objects from from the very beginning. >> Where is all your stuff? Like where is >> Where is all your stuff? Like where is >> Where is all your stuff? Like where is the lunar land? Where do all these the lunar land? Where do all these the lunar land? Where do all these things live? Like where do you keep all things live? Like where do you keep all things live? Like where do you keep all this [ __ ] this [ __ ] this [ __ ] >> Um well uh a lot of it isn't my >> Um well uh a lot of it isn't my >> Um well uh a lot of it isn't my responsibility anymore. It's out there responsibility anymore. It's out there responsibility anymore. It's out there in in public and private collections in in public and private collections in in public and private collections globally. Um, but a lot of it is in uh globally. Um, but a lot of it is in uh globally. Um, but a lot of it is in uh you ever see Indiana Jones um um the you ever see Indiana Jones um um the you ever see Indiana Jones um um the first one and at the end they put the um first one and at the end they put the um first one and at the end they put the um the Ark of the Covenant in this giant the Ark of the Covenant in this giant the Ark of the Covenant in this giant warehouse warehouse warehouse >> at the end and it goes on forever. I've >> at the end and it goes on forever. I've >> at the end and it goes on forever. I've got I've got six of those. got I've got six of those. got I've got six of those. >> Oh, you do? Okay. >> Oh, you do? Okay. >> Oh, you do? Okay. >> Because I'm really focused on building >> Because I'm really focused on building >> Because I'm really focused on building the things that I want to build. And the the things that I want to build. And the the things that I want to build. And the space program is in dry dock in space program is in dry dock in space program is in dry dock in Philadelphia right now. And it's it's Philadelphia right now. And it's it's Philadelphia right now. And it's it's and we go back into it and work on it and we go back into it and work on it and we go back into it and work on it and prepare for the next mission. and prepare for the next mission. and prepare for the next mission. >> Is there going to be another space >> Is there going to be another space >> Is there going to be another space mission? mission? mission? >> I hope not. >> I hope not. >> I hope not. But you know, we you know they say about But you know, we you know they say about But you know, we you know they say about leadership in the other NASA um those leadership in the other NASA um those leadership in the other NASA um those who command missions are usually not the who command missions are usually not the who command missions are usually not the ones who desire to command them. They're ones who desire to command them. They're ones who desire to command them. They're just the ones who are best suited to do just the ones who are best suited to do just the ones who are best suited to do it. So, it's like you can't it's just it. So, it's like you can't it's just it. So, it's like you can't it's just sometimes it's just inevitable. I don't sometimes it's just inevitable. I don't sometimes it's just inevitable. I don't know. know. know. >> I want to end with uh one of your uh 10 >> I want to end with uh one of your uh 10 >> I want to end with uh one of your uh 10 bullets for life. Now, this is this is a bullets for life. Now, this is this is a bullets for life. Now, this is this is a uh like a laptop bag made out of this is uh like a laptop bag made out of this is uh like a laptop bag made out of this is Tyvec, right? Tyvec, right? Tyvec, right? >> Is it it's a cousin of Tyvek called >> Is it it's a cousin of Tyvek called >> Is it it's a cousin of Tyvek called Daea, Daea, Daea, >> but it's it's another flash spun >> but it's it's another flash spun >> but it's it's another flash spun non-fabric fabric. Um super strong, non-fabric fabric. Um super strong, non-fabric fabric. Um super strong, waterproof. That is the best laptop bag waterproof. That is the best laptop bag waterproof. That is the best laptop bag ever because and I think there probably ever because and I think there probably ever because and I think there probably like six of them left on the website. like six of them left on the website. like six of them left on the website. >> I got one off your website, but I knew >> I got one off your website, but I knew >> I got one off your website, but I knew they were I got this I got this a while they were I got this I got this a while they were I got this I got this a while ago, but I don't know if they're still ago, but I don't know if they're still ago, but I don't know if they're still available. available. available. >> I don't know what's there left. There >> I don't know what's there left. There >> I don't know what's there left. There probably six left, but they're so probably six left, but they're so probably six left, but they're so special because it's the only laptop. special because it's the only laptop. special because it's the only laptop. It's the lightest laptop bag ever. And It's the lightest laptop bag ever. And It's the lightest laptop bag ever. And someone might say, "But there's no someone might say, "But there's no someone might say, "But there's no padding." And and my answer is, "Of padding." And and my answer is, "Of padding." And and my answer is, "Of course there's no padding. It's a $6,000 course there's no padding. It's a $6,000 course there's no padding. It's a $6,000 supercomput." like don't drop it. supercomput." like don't drop it. supercomput." like don't drop it. Protect it with your life. Put it inside Protect it with your life. Put it inside Protect it with your life. Put it inside of another bag. of another bag. of another bag. >> I just like how excited you got like >> I just like how excited you got like >> I just like how excited you got like when I pulled this out and you looked at when I pulled this out and you looked at when I pulled this out and you looked at it and you're like you were like, you it and you're like you were like, you it and you're like you were like, you know, know, know, >> and it's the white it's the white one >> and it's the white it's the white one >> and it's the white it's the white one which is it's basically it's translucent which is it's basically it's translucent which is it's basically it's translucent material so you can see your computer material so you can see your computer material so you can see your computer through it. through it. through it. >> I brought it out though because it has a >> I brought it out though because it has a >> I brought it out though because it has a patch on it and on this patch are these patch on it and on this patch are these patch on it and on this patch are these 10 bullets and each one of these bullets 10 bullets and each one of these bullets 10 bullets and each one of these bullets uh represents one of your, you know, uh represents one of your, you know, uh represents one of your, you know, kind of principles for life or rules for kind of principles for life or rules for kind of principles for life or rules for life. And you know, we've kind of danced life. And you know, we've kind of danced life. And you know, we've kind of danced around a bunch of them and we're not around a bunch of them and we're not around a bunch of them and we're not going to go all the way through them, going to go all the way through them, going to go all the way through them, but I wanted to end this with one of but I wanted to end this with one of but I wanted to end this with one of them, uh, which is persistence. Yeah. them, uh, which is persistence. Yeah. them, uh, which is persistence. Yeah. >> And I think that's a good way to kind of >> And I think that's a good way to kind of >> And I think that's a good way to kind of take us out. take us out. take us out. >> If I wanted people watching this to take >> If I wanted people watching this to take >> If I wanted people watching this to take anything away from this, I would say anything away from this, I would say anything away from this, I would say buy this book because it's buy this book because it's buy this book because it's >> Look at you, you capitalist. >> Look at you, you capitalist. >> Look at you, you capitalist. >> Yeah, of course. >> Yeah, of course. >> Yeah, of course. >> Get your plug in. Yeah, I would say buy >> Get your plug in. Yeah, I would say buy >> Get your plug in. Yeah, I would say buy this book because it's the story of how this book because it's the story of how this book because it's the story of how I did it, I did it, I did it, but use it to find how you did it. And but use it to find how you did it. And but use it to find how you did it. And don't keep buying self-help books. Just don't keep buying self-help books. Just don't keep buying self-help books. Just buy one and write your own. This is my buy one and write your own. This is my buy one and write your own. This is my version of that. I'm going to end on version of that. I'm going to end on version of that. I'm going to end on with a quote that um nothing can take with a quote that um nothing can take with a quote that um nothing can take the place of persistence. Um, the place of persistence. Um, the place of persistence. Um, talent will not. Nothing is more common talent will not. Nothing is more common talent will not. Nothing is more common than unsuccessful men with talent. than unsuccessful men with talent. than unsuccessful men with talent. Genius will not. Unrewarded genius is Genius will not. Unrewarded genius is Genius will not. Unrewarded genius is almost a proverb. almost a proverb. almost a proverb. Education will not. The world is filled Education will not. The world is filled Education will not. The world is filled with educated derelicts. with educated derelicts. with educated derelicts. Persistence and determination alone are Persistence and determination alone are Persistence and determination alone are omnipotent. omnipotent. omnipotent. >> I love it, man. I think that's a >> I love it, man. I think that's a >> I love it, man. I think that's a fantastic way to put a pin on it for fantastic way to put a pin on it for fantastic way to put a pin on it for today, man. I appreciate you. You're a today, man. I appreciate you. You're a today, man. I appreciate you. You're a legend. You're an icon. Uh a real legend. You're an icon. Uh a real legend. You're an icon. Uh a real privilege and an honor to spend time privilege and an honor to spend time privilege and an honor to spend time with you, my friend. with you, my friend. with you, my friend. >> Thanks, Rich. Appreciate the time. >> Thanks, Rich. Appreciate the time. >> Thanks, Rich. Appreciate the time. >> Uh the Tom Sachs Guide available >> Uh the Tom Sachs Guide available >> Uh the Tom Sachs Guide available everywhere. Uh follow Tom on Instagram. everywhere. Uh follow Tom on Instagram. everywhere. Uh follow Tom on Instagram. Are are you still like out on book tour Are are you still like out on book tour Are are you still like out on book tour for a while or what's the what what's for a while or what's the what what's for a while or what's the what what's your next your next your next >> um I'm not sure when this airs, but >> um I'm not sure when this airs, but >> um I'm not sure when this airs, but we're on book tour now. We're in Los we're on book tour now. We're in Los we're on book tour now. We're in Los Angeles. Um, and uh I feel like book Angeles. Um, and uh I feel like book Angeles. Um, and uh I feel like book tours forever. tours forever. tours forever. >> So find him on Instagram. Uh, if you >> So find him on Instagram. Uh, if you >> So find him on Instagram. Uh, if you want to uh maybe if there's a few laptop want to uh maybe if there's a few laptop want to uh maybe if there's a few laptop bags left or JPL pads, you can go to bags left or JPL pads, you can go to bags left or JPL pads, you can go to Tom's website at Tom's website at Tom's website at >> tommsacks.com >> tommsacks.com >> tommsacks.com and the ISRU app. Yeah, I would and the ISRU app. Yeah, I would and the ISRU app. Yeah, I would encourage you to sign up for the ISRU encourage you to sign up for the ISRU encourage you to sign up for the ISRU app because it's it's a way of using the app because it's it's a way of using the app because it's it's a way of using the phone to work on your cell phone phone to work on your cell phone phone to work on your cell phone addiction, which is which is the addiction, which is which is the addiction, which is which is the pandemic really is how much time and pandemic really is how much time and pandemic really is how much time and energy we're spending on the device. And energy we're spending on the device. And energy we're spending on the device. And it's, it's, it's, you know, the irony of using a phone to you know, the irony of using a phone to you know, the irony of using a phone to deal with your phone addiction isn't deal with your phone addiction isn't deal with your phone addiction isn't lost on me. But it is a a window to what lost on me. But it is a a window to what lost on me. But it is a a window to what you can achieve through work. you can achieve through work. you can achieve through work. >> Mhm. All right. Thanks, man. >> Mhm. All right. Thanks, man. >> Mhm. All right. Thanks, man. >> Thanks. So good to have you. Thanks >> Thanks. So good to have you. Thanks >> Thanks. So good to have you. Thanks again. Cheers. again. Cheers. again. Cheers. >> Peace.