This Patch Has No Drugs, But the Science Is Wild | Jay Dhaliwal & Super Patch | Mind Pump 2867

Key Takeaway

Jay spent 15 years and $40 million of his own money to help his mother with MS, discovering that specific brain wave patterns control motor function. His breakthrough: analyzing 250,000 EEG readings revealed networks present in 99% of people with normal motor control were deficient in MS patients. This led him to explore how touch and texture could influence brain waves—the foundation of haptic technology that requires no compounds to produce measurable physiological effects.

Episode Overview

Jay, founder of Super Patch, shares his 15-year journey to help his mother with MS by analyzing brain waves and discovering haptic technology. After investing $40 million of his own money and analyzing 250,000 EEG readings, he identified specific neural networks controlling motor function and developed patches using touch-based signals to influence brain activity without any transdermal compounds.

Full Transcript

Transcript of This Patch Has No Drugs, But the Science Is Wild | Jay Dhaliwal & Super Patch | Mind Pump 2867 from Mind Pump Show. Auto-generated from episode audio; may contain minor errors.

Jay, welcome to the show. So glad to be here, S. So, this is an interesting one for me. Right. So, I'm just going to tell the audience like how this all came to be and why you're on uh our show. So, you guys sent us uh some samples of your product. And I'm typically the guy that looks at supplements or products and uh you know, helps determine whether or not this is something we'll even consider, you know, working with. And I was really skeptical right out the gates.

Like really skeptical. So your your product is a patch that you put on and it produces effects. Now I initially thought, oh, this must be a transdermal. Sure. Sure. Sure. You know, it's going to deliver some kind of transermal compound or whatever. And then I looked at I'm like, there's nothing in this. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. In that way, you became more skeptical. Yeah. Even more skeptical. So the skeptical skill started broke, right? right? right? Yeah. And I was like, this is this I mean, I'll be honest.

I thought I was like, this is you're not the first guy. Yeah. This is not this is nothing. This is like total whatever. Yeah. And then you guys sent over some studies. studies. studies. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And I looked at the studies and I was like, are these real? Like these are well-made. Like these are legit studies showing win you over for sure. And like a real effect. It's real deal. Like a real effect. Like a significant effect. effect. effect. So I went through the studies and then but I was still I'm still a skeptic.

I'm always a skeptic. So I get on the phone with you and I'm like I got to ask this guy like what the deal is. deal is. deal is. Oh yeah. You came loaded. I I was just wrapping because he came loading. I'm like, "Okay." like, "Okay." like, "Okay." Well, I'll tell you why. I'll tell you why. why. why. No, I appreciate it. Well, we haven't I don't think there's been a product like this that we've been skeptical and then this interested in since red light therapy.

That's what I was just going to say. Yeah. Red light therapy did a similar thing. I remember when that first that first became popular. You got to cross a chasm of of understanding and belief that's not there, right? So, you have to build a bridge. Yes. Yes. Yes. 100%. Because same thing with red light therapy. Oh, cool. You were shine a red light on yourself all these things. And then they did the same thing. They sent us studies. I saw the studies and then I was like, "Huh?" Then we talked to them and now um you know, obviously it works and now everybody knows it works, but this back So with your product, I got you on and I'm and that's why I'm asking all the questions while we're on the phone about the studies and how this works and how you came up with it and you got me uh interested enough definitely to have you on the show.

And I will say we've been trying some of them and Adam's been having some pain issues issues issues and he's been using uh your the pain one and he explains it. He says it takes my pain from an eight and a nine down to like a five. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Or something like that. That's what we see in the study. Okay. Okay. Okay. That's the best way I could describe it. I don't know how else to describe it other than other than other than that study shows 50% reduction in perceived pain.

perceived pain. perceived pain. Okay. So, let so explain what these patches are and how you came up with them and then let's talk about these studies cuz it's it's wild. It's crazy out of me. And again, if I didn't see all these studies showing support, there's no way I'd believe it. So, let's start there. No, that's thanks for anyways. Thank you for the open mind because they say, you know, a mind is like a parachute. It only works if it's open, right? Because there's so many things happening in the world that we don't have time to stay on top of it, right?

The second thing I'll preface and we can go down two different roads. We can go down the really in-depth road or we can go at the high level. I think you dudes are going to be like let's go into the into the deets which is great. Um everything in neuroscience and I'll argue anybody is a theory. If anybody says they understand how our mind really works and everything that it does and how it does, we don't know. All we can take a look at is develop theories and then figure out what's the likeliness of this is what's causing the cause effect.

Okay. So if there's anything that I say that doesn't make sense or you want a deeper information, we can talk about it. I might say that I don't know. There's a lot of things I don't know and we just measure the effect, right? We're looking at what's happening. So I think we all agree that our nervous system is in charge, right? It runs the show. Every physiological function has some kind of neurological control, right? that control in humans and I only studied humans. I people what about animals I go I don't know about animals I've only studied the human EEG that neurological control is expressed in brain waves that is the language of our mind alpha beta delta theta gamma those are the brain waves we can read with the equipment that we have today is there other stuff going on quite possibly we don't know but this is what we can we can study and and EEG studies and QEG studies are the backbone the gold standard of understanding and normative neural function.

Okay. Okay. Okay. Okay. And we can see those networks. And so what is a neural network? A neural network is a combination of brain waves connecting one region of a brain with another region of a brain, right? So it's a little spark of of of brain wave activity of a wave, but it's never a straight line. It always spirals, spirals, spirals, right? So we have to understand that our mind isn't a two-dimensional construct. Right? So although we see squiggly lines on an EEG, the stuff that's actually happening in our mind is never a straight.

There's no straight lines in neurology. It's always spiraling. So anyways, it's one region of our mind, one neuron, one broadman area talking to another broadman area. It's a little bridge. Multiple millions of bridges form networks. And every physiological function can be reduced if you look at it in certain ways to a very discrete network of function. And so that's what we've done. So first of all, we decided to look and and you ask, well, why did you have to even do this? Like you must have better things to do.

This started off as a passion project to help my mom with her MS, right? For 25 years, we tried every mainstream mechanism, modality, you name it, we tried it. And the question for me at the end of the 25 years was, we're trying to get the signal from her mind to her body cuz mom couldn't do this. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Right. Right. Right. And so my background is software encryption. encryption. encryption. And so my question to her care providers and leading thought leaders in this space was we understand because of the immalation the signal is not getting from her mind to her body.

She's wants to do this. She wants to be amulatory control in her arms but she can't do it. So talk to me about that signal. Right? Right? Right? And the and the answer was well it's not that simple. So what I've learned is if academia and mainstream medicine comes back and says it's not that simple. That's code for we don't know. That's what I've learned over the last many many years. And they're like, well, why do you want to know? I go, it's pretty simple. If I can quantify the signal, then maybe I can build a bridge over the part that's not working right.

Because that's what engineers do. We build bridges, bridges, bridges, right? Um they're like, well, like, okay, we don't know what the signal is. Where does it start? Well, it starts in the brain. I'm like great what part of the brain is regulating this and what's the signal that starts there it's not that simple right so this is a conversation that's many many months and weeks and just trying to deduce it and and the conversation that concluded was our mind generates generates generates information that starts off as brain waves waves waves that when it exits our central nervous system down the brain stem out the AP of the brain stem it becomes microcurrens of signals there's no brain waves is per se inside our peripheral nervous system, right?

They're microcurrents of electricity all organized in very specific way. And I said, okay, what are the brain waves that actually control amulatory control? That's where I started looking at it. And again, the answer was not that simple. But what I knew at that point, as you can imagine, is if brain waves are the source of that control that express neuro function that ultimately express physiological function, then that's what we need to study. study. study. But you can't base it on one set of data, right? You need lots and lots of data.

So there are a number of databases globally that have been collecting EEG readings from people for decades. The database that we've relied on is called the Loretta Z database. It's about a quarter million subjects their EEG readings and it's become the normative database to measure normative function. So if I took cell your EEG and I wanted to see hey where is cell's EEG neuro function based against normative that's the database we would compare your EEG to see the difference between normative function and where yours is.

That's what these databases are used for and can use them for imaging. You can use them for identifying networks. So this is now going back to 2009. So it's been a while. So this database you can license it. It's not expensive. I got this database and I'm trying to see where's a network that controls mom's ambulatoratory control control control and the database doesn't have it right it's it's not built to do that um and when I write to them in a comm said listen where is the ambulatory network where's this network they're like no no we have this software but basically what you're seeing is an oscilloscope that has wiggly lines on it so for better part three and a half four years I write my own software to start analyzing that database.

So now here's the theory that I had and if you if you disagree then we can talk about it. The four of us are awake and alive, right? right? right? So far we agree. That means if if our brain is regulating every physiological function, our breathing, our respiratory control, our heart rate, everything amulatory, then that then that activity must be expressed in our minds. minds. minds. There's communication going on. there's something going on, right? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And if that's the case, then that network must exist in every single person, single person, single person, right?

right? right? Seems logical. Seems logical. Seems logical. Seems logical, right? That was the theory. Like, okay, if I have enough database, if I have enough data or a large enough database, there must be a network in every single one of them that regulates amulatory control. So, you should be able to identify. You should be able to say this is what these brain waves look like in people with normal control of Okay, that was the premise. And you're trying to look for it. I'm trying to find it.

And so, you built software to analyze because that's a lot of data and numbers and so, so step one was creating software to compile all of this and give you what you're looking for. Well, it's pattern recognition, right? So, it's based on machine learning, pattern recognition, delination. So you can take any complex sine wave and you can reduce it to individual frequencies and all this is just 4A transform. This is mathematical constructs that have been around for a long time. It's signal processing. processing. processing. Okay?

Okay? Okay? Right? But it isn't one signal. It's a lot of signals. So what we had to find was was the relationship between areas of the brain broadman areas the different discrete networks that are being formed in them and find the one that's common across 99% of that database. database. database. You're looking for normative. I'm I'm looking for normative and consistency. Does this pattern exist? So the ambulatory program that all of us have is hardwired is organized the same way in all of us because no one teaches us amulatory.

No one teaches us how to use our armor or legs, right? right? right? No one teaches us pain. No one teaches us sleep. No one teaches us these things. These are pre-programmed. And so they must be the same otherwise they wouldn't we wouldn't couldn't function, right? So, I'm looking for that network that network that network that helps regulate our ambulatory control, vestibular response, balance, stability, control my arms, control my legs. Why? Because that's what my mom lost with her MS. Alleviate pain, improve sleep, boost athletic performance with no compounds, no supplements.

Something called haptic technology. It's literally a small patch you put on your skin and it gets these things to happen. When I first heard about it, I was completely skeptical. Completely skeptical until Jay sent me the peer-reviewed controlled studies. Real studies, you guys. Like, you can look them up yourselves. The studies prove these things really work. My mind has been changed. We've experimented and use it use their products and all of us notice a difference. It's wild. It's breakthrough. It's going to start a new category of how people can alleviate things like pain or improve their sleep or move better, have boost their libido.

There's the possibilities are endless. The company's called Super Patch. So, in this episode, we talk all about the founding, the science, and just how wild it is. By the way, if you want to try out one of their products, uh, you get yourself a discount. You can go to mindpump.sup.com. That link will get you $30 off their products. Now, this episode is brought to you by another sponsor, Seed. This is the world's best probiotics. So, if you like the benefits of probiotics, you like the better gut health, you see what the science says for inflammation, for skin health, for energy, there is some evidence that shows that probiotics may help with fat loss, go with the world's best.

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Hit pause. Head on over to mypumpstore.com. That's it. Enjoy the rest of the show. Now, when you're doing this and you're first off, creating that software in itself is a crazy project. That's like a whole another company. It's four years. Four years you're just creating software coding. coding. coding. Five and a half million lines. Five half million. Wow. Okay. So, that whole time you're doing that and you're your thought and I did this but this what I So, the advantage now this is a great point because that's what I did.

That was my sweet spot. sweet spot. sweet spot. Okay. Okay. Okay. Like I grew up doing that. Okay. Like that's where I'm at home. Okay. So five years you're you're you're creating the software that's going to break this down for you. And your theory was was was if I can identify what's normative Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. then I have a place to look now to help solve this problem. You don't know what the how to solve. I have no idea. You just are like this is the first clue.

clue. clue. I I listen it's it's it's like Google maps. maps. maps. If you want to go somewhere you got to know where you are first. Sure. Sure. Sure. Right. Right. Right. Right. So I I need baseline. I need to know where am I? What are we starting with? What's normative? What's baseline vestibular response? What's baseline amulatory control? amulatory control? amulatory control? How are you when you're writing the code for this? How are you able to tease out all the other functions? This is the time and the energy.

This is why it's taken so long. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Like the like the the the horsepower on now we have so many different tools, but the server stack is heavy, the coding is heavy, the app is heavy, right? It's a drain because you're synthesizing trillions of bits of data trying to find that common and and and once you start seeing it and seeing how it's organized then it becomes easy and easy. The last patch that I made was 10 times 100 times easier than the first patch that I made, right?

Because you got to start somewhere, right? And the beautiful part is EEG data and EEG analysis and Q analysis is not a new thing. Top tier scientists, the national health programs, the Pentagon, they all been studying this. So this isn't like I'm doing this in isolation. Some of the smartest people in the world are so there's a lot of research happening at the same time that I'm reading that I'm saying, "Okay, this is probably not the right way to go. This is probably not." So you're getting clues in here.

We're getting clues everywhere, right? And all I'm trying to do is find a consistent network that I believe theoretically responds to amulatory control muscle recruitment. Now what so what's the majority of like where are you getting all this data from in terms of the person like so so so the Loretta database h is that database it's got the QG database of a quarter million people that's what we're analyzing analyzing analyzing and it just varies across the board it's age 2 to 85 quart that's a lot of people that's a lot of data which is actually really good for what you're trying to do it's absolutely the perfect thing what I'm trying to do without it I couldn't do it do it do it yeah cuz normative can you imagine if I had to go collect No, I know.

No, a lifetime just to gather that data. No, but this was a lifetime of people that have been studying this, right? There'sn't there's so many people. Now, what made you at this point I got to ask you this cuz when what I know of MS is that the the the essentially the communication highway, the myelin sheets, right, that protect the the nerves is down is is becoming damaged. Yes. damaged. Yes. damaged. Yes. And so the signal is not getting to the place. place. place. Yes. Yes.

Yes. When I hear that, I'm think I'm focusing on the milein sheath. I am not even thinking about what what made you go in there. You there. You there. You heard what he said. His his engineer Brian thinks of creating a bridge. He knows there was no road the road there. I'm trying to create years. They haven't been able to fix the milein issue, the demilation issue, right? So, I'm like, they can't fix it. So, what do I do? I I knew that I had to build some kind of bridge over the broken part.

broken part. broken part. But before you do that, you got to know what normal looks like. Oh, I I got to know what what do I got to cross the bridge? Am I building a railroad track? Am I building a high? I got to know what is that information that's got to go across because they can't tell me. Got it. Got it. Got it. And and because I don't know what it is, I got to go to source. I got to go to first princip where does it start?

Cuz once I know where it starts, then I can trace it. trace it. trace it. Got it. Got it. So you're thinking, let me figure this out first. Once I see what's going on, then then I'll know what's going on. Then I'm going to try and build a bridge. bridge. bridge. Then I'm trying to build a bridge. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. It seems impossible. Of course. But so this is this is the thing. Um, I believe that every challenge that we ever ever was put in front of us, the big guy upstairs had a plan for us.

If I didn't if he didn't train me with his gifts of of understand and learn and mathematics, I couldn't do what I did. So, I don't take any credit for like, "Oh, you're so smart." I go, I got nothing to do with that. I'm determined. I got nothing to do with that. Our personality is God-given. I believe this wholeheartedly. And you're motivated because it's mom. Because I'm motivated because it's my mom. Yeah. So, I have a great career. I'm financially independent. I got a great marriage.

I got great kids. I take care of my parents. Check mark. Check mark. I I knocked the American dream out of the park. I hit for the cycle. Now what? what? what? Now what do you do? Mom's still sick. So, the motivation is there, the desire is there, the curiosity is there, and I have the time and resources to do it. If I didn't have the time and resources, this wasn't going to get done. No one was going to believe that this crazy guy was going to sit there for 15 years to figure this thing out.

No one would invest in it. So if I didn't have my own resources to do it, it wasn't going to happen. happen. happen. Yeah. Because that's trying to raise money for that idea. Possible dude. Possible dude. Possible dude. No. No chance. Now everybody wants to invest. I'm like, "No, no, no. No thanks." No thanks." No thanks." So in that 5year period when So in that 5year period when you're trying to you're you're creating the software, you start synthesizing this data. this data. this data. When was the first like breakthrough or aha moment?

aha moment? aha moment? There were so many. So cuz you you got to triangulate down, to you got to triangulate down, right? right? right? Okay. Okay. Okay. Cuz there's seemingly an infinite amount of data, an infinite amount of computations that that you're trying to do, right? So you're think where do I start? start? start? Right? So I come across this study done in 1964. in 1964. in 1964. Wow. Old study in Sydney, Australia by a neuromuscular dentist. This is weird stuff. a neuromuscular dentist. dentist. dentist.

Dude, I didn't even know that was a thing. thing. thing. It's a thing. I mean, you were scouring your I'm reading everything. Like, I've read 50,000 research papers over the last 17 years. years. years. So, I'm just I've been there with a loved one where I you just you're just you're motivated like I'm going to read everything. You because you don't know because I don't know. Yeah. Right. So, the part of the learning is disqualification and this is important. Disqualify and this is important. Disqualify. This is important.

But you can't. But every time you read a paper that's worthy and that is informative, it's got 200 references that you also have to read. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Cuz cuz you can't because you can't connect the dots. Right. So this research done in 64 in Sydney, Australia. Sydney, Australia. Sydney, Australia. There's this guy. He's taking a look at neurofunction. He's taking a look at how the different nuclei in our brain are impacting vestibular response and balance. This is hitting like this is triggering me. triggering me.

triggering me. Yeah. So this is right up your right up my alley. Mhm. So he says that hey there's nuclei there's red nuclei in the ponds. He says the pawns and the midbrain are critical for vestibular control balance and stability. This is what mom lost. So what this does for me and this is the first year like okay this this narrows the field. the field. the field. Yeah. Now you can start to use this to search for other studies. Now now I know where am I going to start looking for looking for looking for the first network.

Right. Instead of looking at the whole brain, I know that hey, if this is if if this vestibular system is is is isolated or predominantly controlled by this region of the brain, then I know which area the broadband areas that I have to start focusing on that triangulate from there. there. there. It's like you were searching in the total vast of all the oceans and you've just narrowed it down to the Atlantic. Just that. Just that. Just that. Yeah. So now you're looking into a space and seeing all the galaxies.

Now I'm just looking at this one constellation, right? And say, okay, this is where I'm going to start. work done by giants. That's okay. Hey, dude, look here. And that's what it was. So, it started with that. And the first inkling that I had of where it was was was starting to look at the midbrain, the different nuclei. What do they connect? What are they broadcast in? What are they connecting with? And this over time led to this this this this is really a di it's it's a diagnostic tool that says, hey, we've looked at all of this data.

Here are common patterns of networks that are appearing over and over and over and over again. And if they only appear in 50%, I'm not interested interested interested because I the theory was that they have to exist across 99% of that database. It's got to be really common. Really common, Really common, Really common, right? So based on other people's research, I deduce what I believe is the vestibular response network. And I go, here it is. And then I have my mom's EEGs from every year we do an EEG from my mom.

And when I compare her EEG against that database against that network, she's below. So, so if if this is the normative bandwidth for that vestibular response database because there's a band it operates in, right? right? right? Hers is lower. Wow. And and while you're doing this, you're like this. I hope this looks different different different cuz cuz it would have I mean, imagine if it wasn't, right? But you're like, I hope this I hope I see a difference. This is the thing. So I learned a long time ago, I don't know where exact moment I learned a long time ago to disassociate the effort from the outcome.

outcome. outcome. Yeah. Otherwise you would have given up. Otherwise you give up. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Right. You quit. Right. If you can isolate just put the outcome over here. I'm going to do the do. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And we're going to see what it is. So being that curious person, that student that's I'm going to go learn nothing else. I'm going to learn. Right. Right. Right. And And And it was such like if I didn't sleep for days when when I saw that I go this is insane insane insane because it was very clear.

It was so clear. And so then what do you do naturally is you go prove it. So you I got EEGs from other people with MS. I was just going to ask. Then you're going to get other people with MS and it's the same thing. You saw consistency. Consistency below. Consistency below. Consistency below. Oh, light bulb. That's got to be exciting. exciting. exciting. Bing bing bing bing bing. I'm like a lot of like of like of like like I would wake up my wife in the morning like this is WAKE UP THIS WE FOUND SOMETHING LIKE WHAT DID YOU FIND go and I tell her what it was she goes I go the vectors are like this and then she's like what are you talking about right now right but it's okay cuz I'm in full like geek mode and then I go okay what else is true so people that have no control there's other people that have involuntary control of their muscles right so if you have people that have muscle [ __ ] issues tress issues stuff like this and I put their network in it's a buff.

Wow. What you would expect, bro. Well, I'm like, "This is wicked." But I don't know. So, I'm just I'm like you. I'm like, "Let's see what it says." Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Put the data in and it goes bing. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Right. Right. Right. I like this is very cool. And I go, I think this is the network. So, then you're looking at it and I go, so now what? Okay, great. Jay, you spent all this time, energy, and money. You've done this thing. this thing.

this thing. And how long until when was it when you figured this out? How many years? This is 2014. Okay. So you started in 2009. Yeah. 2000 end of 2008 2009. This is 2014. 2014. 2014. So this is 5 years later. Your first breakthrough breakthrough breakthrough like that I could see something. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Right. Right. Right. Bro, the discipline to go that long. Well, it's your mom, dude. It's a mom, bro. Nothing you wouldn't do. do. do. Right. Like between me and God, there's mom.

mom. mom. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. That's how I came here. Yeah. Y Yeah. Y Yeah. Y right. Um there's a connection there that that that I ultimately I think everybody's I speak for myself. for myself. for myself. My mom is my creator after God, right? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And so I'll do anything for her. Mhm. Mhm. Mhm. And so that's what keeps you going. And and the advantage that I had of financial independence was that yeah it was costly it was timely it there was a lot of determination that's required but I couldn't think of a more nobler thing to pursue than that.

How how much money at this point did you invest invest invest at that point I was about 4 and a half in million? Yeah. million? Yeah. million? Yeah. Wow. Wow. Wow. Wow. This is your money? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Wow. Wow. Wow. Okay. Oh, to date I'm 40. 40 million of your own money in Yeah. Wow. Yeah. Wow. Yeah. Wow. Wow. Okay. So, you So, this is Talk about conviction, bro. You got to have some serious Hold on. How is your wife with this? So, 5 years in, you're just throwing money at this thing and stud.

So, I was very fortunate to hit it out of the park three times in big ways. I didn't I could afford it. Okay. Okay. Okay. Right. If I couldn't afford it, I couldn't I couldn't have done it. Sure. Sure. Sure. Right. Right. Right. Did you go in knowing that? Did you know like I'm going this is going to be millions? millions? millions? I had no idea. Oh, okay. Oh, okay. Oh, okay. I had no idea. Wow. Wow. Wow. Cuz I don't know cuz I'm starting from from what I what I've cuz I've been studying neurology since I was 13 years old since mom got sick.

I mean, there had been somebody though along the way that is like this is going to cost you millions of dollars per year. year. year. No, because no one would cuz we didn't know what we were looking for. Nobody's ever tried to do it, right? And the few I know a lot of people in in New York and Toronto, I mean, these are big financial centers like, "Hey, I got this idea." And they're like, "What are you doing?" Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Are you insane? I'm like, possibly.

But this is I go my question is what if? Yeah, Yeah, Yeah, right. So, it's that much time and energy into it. And then the question is, so now what? How the question is, how do I still help my mom? So then I go back to the first premise. If these ways are responsible for the physical response, right? right? right? Mhm. Mhm. Mhm. Can I move those waves in her network into normative function? And then what will that do? And what will happen then? Yeah. Yeah.

Yeah. So now the question is how do you move those? those? those? How do you move those waves? Okay. So where does that take you? So now you're like, how do I do this? Right. So Right. So Right. So I mean my first thought is pharmarmacology. That's what I'm thinking. thinking. thinking. Well, we've I've tried it. That's right. That's right. Yeah. We've tried it. You tried it for 25 years. years. years. So you can't you I've tried nerve conduction. I've looked at it and it didn't it didn't cross the chasm.

It didn't it didn't The light at the end of the tunnel was always a train. Like do you know how many times my mom and I felt like wy coyote? You're going down that train track, you think it's daylight, but it's a train. You're like, "Okay, this is not going to work. You got to come back." Right? So now what? So the question is, how can you change waves? Right? So first principle says, how are they getting there? Now how are waves put the word brainside to a second.

How are waves getting into our central nervous system? Yeah, photons go through our eyes, they hit our optic nerve and they become a wave, right? There's no projector in our head, right? right? right? Sound waves go through our ears, hit the audio nerves, then become waves. No subwoofers, no mics, nothing in our head. What we're experiencing right now are just brain waves. Right? You might be there physically, but from my reality, you're existing in here as a wave. Sure. Sure. Sure. Okay. How else touch? touch?

touch? Touch. Touch. Touch. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Touch. Touch. Touch. And I don't know if you guys get it, but I stuff comes into my head and I can't shake it. Somebody's got a song in your head or something and it just percolates. percolates. percolates. And the thing that's renting space in my head is how do blind people read? Oh, so that right out the gates came to you. you. you. It just it was a download. I was like, "Bang." How do blind people read? Yeah. Yeah.

Yeah. Braille. Braille. Braille. How? How? How? 200 years old. They're getting the waves through the touch. Braille's 200 years old. It's 200 years old. Oh, I didn't know that. Wow. It's 200 years old. And it's reliable. I mean, they read very very very consistent consistent consistent and reliable. and reliable. and reliable. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. How's that working? So then I go down that rabbit hole. How does this work? Right. And lucky for me, in 2010, these guys published a paper out of California, Dr. Julius and Dr.

Pupian, Pupian, Pupian, they discovered for the first time the ion channels that actually generate that micro electrical current from touch, texture, and pressure. And they term it PZO2. So, we've known forever that our skin is sending information to our brain. We know this. know this. know this. Yeah. And the cool thing about Braille, you just said it's 200 years old. We've got to have a lot of data on Braille. We have none. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. You're kidding me. No, no, no, no, no. The exact underlying mechanisms are unknown.

unknown. unknown. Wow. For 200 years because it works. Cuz we're like, who cares? Because it works. Yeah. So, who cares, right? Like, do you care how it works? No. No. No. Okay, that's my part. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Wow. Okay, good point. It's all we need to know, right? This is this is the reality of it. Okay. Right. But I'm curious like how's that happening? happening? happening? And there's so much research coming in from all over the world about PZO2. These guys are just top tier people and these things over the now last 17 years.

I'm going to jump forward. So P2s are proving to be the primary communicators in our body that generate electrical signals. But they're saying they're also responsible for now for also intracellular communication. Like these things are super critical. So any piece of tissue in our body that doesn't have PO2 is pretty much an unsensitized piece of of flesh. If it doesn't have PO2, it's dead. So PSO2, is that what? Yeah. P I E Z2. Okay. So P these are ion channels. Okay. This is basically communicating to the brain.

the brain. the brain. So what P is so soon as I soon as we touch touch touch that sensation you're feeling being associated with that is that part of of of P 2 is it's just a channel right? So it sparks because of touch, pressure, vibration. vibration. vibration. Okay. Okay. Okay. Right. So they surround the different receptors in our skin. And what are they using? Calcium. Are they calcium? they calcium? they calcium? Yeah. Potassium, calcium. There's all the the the But it's it's and it's a microcurrent.

Okay. Okay. Okay. Okay. And and this is what's generous. I'm like, this is very curious. So at least now I know the mechanisms that are going to eventually send some signal to our mind. our mind. our mind. Do you go down the rabbit hole of like uh acupuncture and massage? I've studied all of it. Obviously there got to be a lot of connection along this along this way because I'm reading everything right. And so I read a study coming out of the University of uh British Columbia, two doctors uh Kennedy and Engless, smart guys, and they've been mapping the mechan because now I'm studying skin receptors, right?

right? right? This is where we're at now. This is the next thing. And they published a study now done in 2002 and they mapped out receptors on the bottom of the feet and their conclusion is this that these receptors play some role in postural stability and balance. Oh, I'm likeing bing bing bing bing bing bing. What's this? Oh, so you see balance, you see these receptors. receptors. receptors. Yeah. I go I'm I'm on track. Something's happening here. happening here. happening here. So more researching needs to be done.

That's the famous line in all research, right? But more research. So, I I find I find one of these doctors. He's gone on to something else. And I said, "Hey, doc. My name is Jay. I'm trying to do this thing. Um, I read your research paper. You said more research needs to be done. Do you have any more research?" Uh, "Hey Jay, thanks for calling. We couldn't get any more funding on this scope, so we didn't do any more research on it." They were knocking on heaven's door as far as I was concerned.

You see, academia is completely driven by funding for research, right? right? right? If they don't get the funding, the research stops. research stops. research stops. Yeah. Why? And and and and not to speak because I think it's important work with it is very important, but they're driven by the need to publish. publish. publish. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Not solve a problem. Engineers have a different mindset. We're like, okay, there's a problem. Solve it. Solve it. Right. So, I'm going to try to find all the variables as a part of the solution, the equation that's going to lead to an answer that I need.

So I'm like, so now I went from brain waves to receptors and now I've condensed it down to the bottom of the feet. So I'm just going with the wave, right? I'm not fighting anything. I'm not resisting. I'm saying, "Okay, where is this? Wherever this leads, I'm going to go." to go." to go." Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So now I end up at the bottom of the feet. feet. feet. I'm like, "Okay, what's here?" And the first thing that I deduce is I combine different receptors on the bottom of the feet because that's where the research was.

was. was. It wasn't that I was so brilliant. So, I'm going to start there. So, the first product or the first iteration of the tech was actually stimulating the metatarsal area of the bottom of the foot. Okay? foot. Okay? foot. Okay? And it was isolated to that. And the first thing that I made was a pad that would go into an insole or a pair of socks that could stimulate that metatarsal spot. metatarsal spot. metatarsal spot. How did it work? And it worked. Wow. Wow. Wow.

Wait, how do you what do you mean it worked? How worked? How worked? How we could see improvements in balanced abilities? The first product I made was a pair of socks. And and you tried this on mom and other people. Yeah, we have a study on it. Wow. Wow. Wow. 31%. 31%. 31%. So people with issues with balance with gate balanced ability put the socks on and it improves by 31%. by 31%. by 31%. Wow. Wow. Wow. But no, but but more than that, I said, "No, no, no, no.

This is not enough. I need to see the neurological connection, right?" So you would think this you're wearing socks. I'm wearing socks. I don't know if you're wearing socks, but we're all wearing socks. is that this shouldn't be registering as anything consistent in our smata sensory cortex because that's where all peripheral stimulation ends up when we process it first. That's where the signal goes, right? Okay. Okay. Okay. So, I reach out to the foremost EEG QEG expert in the world. His name is Dr. Robert Thatcher.

He's retired now. He's in Tampa, Florida. He's written the literal textbook on QEG analysis. Yeah. And I went down to Tampa and I said, "Be "Be "Be socks are going to register a consistent signal on your software. Forget about my software cuz I can't use my software to validate, validate, validate, right?" Because people said, "Well, this is your software. You could jerryrig the software, do say whatever you want." So, I need to go to an FDA registered product software that's used by the Pentagon and NIS and all these other amazing places.

And he's the guy. I go, he's like, "That's not going to happen, Jay. Just save your money." And I'm like, "Entertain me." You know, like I'm willing because this is the resistance I've had. You talk about skepticism, bro. Nobody wants to put their name beside it because what I'm proposing is so radical. so radical. so radical. Mhm. Mhm. Mhm. So, it's this relentlessness of pushing, pushing, pushing, saying, "Try it. Try it. I'll pay for it. Try it. I'll pay for it. Try it." So, he agrees.

We brain map 3540 people. It's cons that pattern on the bottom of the feet is consistently registering. Wow. Wow. Wow. On the semata sensory cortex. That's cool. That's cool. That's cool. Statistically significant. He's like, "This is impossible." Why does he think it's impossible? Because it's not something that you you don't feel your socks, do you? No. No. No. Okay. It's not registering. It's just noise. noise. noise. Okay. Okay. Okay. He goes, "This is a very discreet." And he goes, "And it's" He goes, "And it's isolating to the bottom of the feet.

cuz the smat sensory cortex has different regions that speak to different parts of the body that that's where the sensation he goes he goes this is impossible I go I know but it's happening that's cool that's cool that's cool consistently consistently consistently so how did you design the socks like so this is the thing so now so this is the thing so now it's just math and iteration and why it cost so much damn money because you have to try it you have to make it and try it again and run the EEG and test it again and again and again you're lit You mean literally approaching this like an engineer?

Yeah. How deep how deep how deep are we into the socks? Uh I'm eight now. Eight now. Eight now. Eight now. I'm eight now. Right. You got to make like a cool timeline. It's about eight now. Right. There there's a timeline and there's the cul and my like my parents think I've lost my mind. my mind. my mind. My siblings think I have lost my mind. My in-laws think I've lost my mind. The person that I give so much credit for supporting me is my wife.

And she's like, "You do you." Because she's seen me do crazy things in my life. She goes, "If you put your head to it, there's nothing you can't do." She goes, "If you want to do this," she goes, "I'm with you." That's great. That's great. That's great. Right. Otherwise, I because if it was if she said, "No, we're done." Then I would have stopped. have stopped. have stopped. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Wow. So, you're you're you're creating these socks. these socks. these socks. You're you're changing them a little bit.

You're testing with the EEGs. You're changing a little bit. Testing with and it's just literally like an engineer does with a problem. There's no choice. I mean, how is that how's that not a super profitable product by itself, though? It is. We sold 7 million pairs globally. Oh, [ __ ] Wow. Yeah. Wow. Yeah. Wow. Yeah. Okay. I can see. So, we're cooping some of this money. Yeah. A little bit. Okay. Good. Okay. Good. After the fact. Then we After the fact. Then we were like 810 in.

By the time I sold the first one, we were 10 in. Wow. That's cool. Because it doesn't I couldn't let go of the idea. Yeah. Mhm. Yeah. Mhm. Yeah. Mhm. I couldn't let go because I knew that if we could do it, we'd change the world. Yeah. Well, you got to be excited. You're you're getting closer and closer now this now this now this and every day you're getting a little bit closer. So, you make a pattern and people say, "How did you figure out the pattern?" So, there's a couple things.

Number one, it's iterative. It's completely unintuitive how this thing works. You think it is the way it is, but it's not. And it's also completely proprietary, right? I mean there's a lot of time, energy, money to figure out that algorithmic relationship between between between every every sensor in our body has a complex relationship with all the sensors around it, right? right? right? If nothing happens in isolation, nothing happens in isolation and it's happening in real time. And our mind is so brilliant that you got to just get it close because what are we doing?

All we're doing is cal calibrating a skin sensation that's like a tuning fork that reminds the central nervous system what it's supposed to be. Right? So if I have a tuning fork that's that's tuned to 440 htz and you have one that's 440 htz but yours is 500 htz and yours is 300 htz. If I bang mine only yours is going to vibrate. Yours is not going to vibrate and yours is not going to vibrate. That's harmonic resonance. Mhm. So all the patch does is when we put those ridges against our skin is we're creating a tension field around that area of the skin.

Those receptors are firing. firing. firing. That's a harmonizes it and it sends that it collaborates that signal and our mind re. We're not teaching anything to our mind. It already knows it. It's already there. It's pre-programmed. That's what the database told us that this is normative. It wants to get here anyways. Where did you get how did you go from socks to patches that you can wear anywhere on your body? Cuz you would think I would think, oh, bottom of the foot makes sense. You stand on your feet.

Of course, it has to do with balance. Are you thinking like, are there different parts of the body that are associated? No, no, no, no. But also, the 35 people you were testing this with, was this consistent across the board? They're all of them. Every single one. 35. 100%. Same experience. Same experience. All registering. Okay. I'm like, "Okay, cool. This works. This is great, but what else can I find? The question is, what else? What other patterns exist? patterns exist? patterns exist? So, the socks is going, it's great.

Mom loves the socks. Her energy levels are higher. I can't get her out of the wheelchair because of entrophy over time. It's just one of those things, but we're What else can I improve? So, I just start finding new neuropatterns from all this data. And you're using You're using your software to look. I'm using software. What other Okay, we have this one. What else is there? Then then then you say, "Well, here's a pattern. It it registers a neural network. What does it do?" Then you have to go out there and look at mainstream medicine and other research saying, "Okay, what could this likely be doing?" Right?

Somebody gives you the answer like, "Okay, what possible thing could this be?" So then you got to work backwards like, "Okay, these broadman areas relate to this. This frequency typically relates to this. Could it be this?" This is why this thing is so iterative and so damn expensive because you don't know what you have until you get into it. Mhm. Right. So then you have these complex patterns that to stimulate it, it's going to require very complex stimulation on the skin to do it. And I know the bottom of the feet is not going to offer me that.

It's like, okay, where can I do that? Is is it even possible to do it on on on our larger dermis over our arms or our legs? And this is completely investigation. 2017, investigation. 2017, investigation. 2017, right before Christmas, a study comes out of Japan. This is mind-blowing. These guys published that if there's a sensation on our body and our skin, it's permanently imprinted on our smataensory cortex and it will recall it if that sensation is ever felt again. again. again. Meaning Meaning Meaning there's a memory there's a there's a permanent memory in the sensory cortex of skin sensation, not my findings.

And all of a sudden, light bulbs like bing bing bing bing who what do you mean? And then I'm like, and then you have another down. It's like, but of course, when you were kids, you ever draw something on your siblings back and ask them what it was? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. How's that work? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. How does that work? Mhm. Mhm. Mhm. Think about it. Like, we take all this stuff for granted, but our skin is in real time communicating messaging and memory and recall all the time.

Of course. Of course. Of course. Right. I'm like, okay. So, what does this mean? That means our all I it doesn't matter where it is. All I have to do is generate that signal. How do I do it? Then you go deeper and then you spend some more money and some more time and some more energy to see how we can collaborate it. And there's no way to knit these complex patterns into the socks. Number one, it's not possible to do it. Mhm. Mhm. Mhm. Second thing is suppose we could how are when you put the socks in the washer and the dryer and they come out, how are you going to match them?

Oh yeah. Oh yeah. Oh yeah. There's a practical issue. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. there's a product practical doesn't make any sense. any sense. any sense. Like the average person can't tell the difference between one pattern and another pattern. another pattern. another pattern. So how do I do that? So the second thing that we looked for was that that came out was sleep and then pain that we could see clearly networks because there's so much research done in the neuro matrix of pain. I was going to say there's so much and the there's so much and the sleep networks are so well studied so we can triangulate a lot more closely.

Yeah. This is likely sleep. This is likely the pain matrix. Right. So we just build on that and we start eliminating and start codifying and then we get to where we are today. So that's been the the development process of this thing. thing. thing. But completely and the thing that saved us ultimately was 3D printing cuz when we went to the patch now I could just 3D print it out and test a lot quicker. But the first five patches I had to do with micro tooling.

Oh, you're kidding me. The first patch I made. The first patch I made 1,200 iterations of microtooling to get it right. Oh my god. 1,200. That's 1,200. That's 1,200. That's 1,200 iterations of micro tooling. Because what does it got to do? It's got to work no matter which way you put it. Yeah. So upside down, left, right. Yeah. So the complexity of overengineering is like why they go why don't you what why why it should I should have to put it a certain way. I go it'll nobody will use it.

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. If it had to be directional or located in a certain place this is dead. Mhm. Mhm. Mhm. Stick to the socks. So the the thing the reason it's so complex it has to be overengineered to work no matter where you put it in whichever direction you put it. That's the complexity of it. Got it. Right. But that complexity to make requires make requires make requires really precise micro tooling that you have to go over I know because of it because you're not going to know until you make it.

Now so the for people listening these are small patches that there's no chemical. It's literally just stick it on and you can see and kind of feel like looks like braille. It's almost like tiny tiny bit brail like braille on a micro ridges. Yeah. like looks like braille on a band-aid and and that's what's creating the signal. So signal. So signal. So but those so so sorry to interrupt but the correction is the patch is not creating the signal. The skin sensors are creating the signal.

The signal is endogenous meaning our body is creating it. All that all that the patch is doing is creating tension on our skin and the receptors by by putting it against it. Right. And then people ask well yeah I can see you putting the first time but how's it still keeps working? Yeah. Right. every movement. Now, how so I'm wearing one right now, right? And I've already admitted how much I notice a difference in the pain. How have you have you done tests or have you done studies where if I were to just push my finger there?

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Instead, like what what what would that would it do something different or would it do anything? So, surprisingly, there's a lot of research on that. I think that has to do with like acupuncture, massage, acupuncture, massage, acupuncture, massage, massage, acupuncture, all of it. So, the natural thing is when we get hurt, we rub our arm. We're interfering with that signal. That's all we're doing. We're causing another signal just to cause static on it. Right. it. Right. it. Right. That's why icy hot works, by the way.

Same thing. Same thing. Same thing. It's just confusing. Well, even when you say right now, like that's such a like I mean we do it with my son like he hit some. Oh, just rub it. Rub it. Rub it. But of course, it's like it's not like you're fixing. you're fixing. you're fixing. No, no, but it's But this is But we take it for granted, right? Exactly. It's not like someone What is the mechanism? I didn't read a research paper on that. Like you just do that.

You've you've learned innately. learned innately. learned innately. So here's another thing. So you guys might be aware something called sarcastic resonance, right? Meaning that if you put noise against a faint signal, the signal becomes clearer. It's it's mindb blazing the stuff we use in signal processing all the time. So if you don't know if the signal is too faint, put more noise into it in in the surrounding area and the signal becomes clearer. clearer. clearer. Right? So imagine here's analogy. I don't know if it's right.

If you have a piece of white paper paper paper and you you take a glue stick and you and you write the letter A on it, you might not be able to see it because it's so faint. But if you put sand on it, you'll see it. You're going to see it, right? right? right? Right. Very similar, so the more noise you add to any signal, it's going to become clear. I didn't figure this out. This has been around a long time, long time, long time, right?

right? right? So that iterative process to that point, yeah, that there's been a lot of research has been done on confusing the signal or entering a new signal, right? And this is what neural implants do. What do neural implants do? They they put them in your in your in your spinal column or they put them attach them to your vagus nerve and they're just zapping the nervous. They're trying to interrupt a signal. Mhm. Mhm. Mhm. Right. The concept with the the patch is so simple, right?

Because what we know is the skin can read. Brail proved that. So all that matters is what you're writing on it, right? And the evidence says yeah it's reading it and the output is there. We can see it in the EEGs. We can see it in the QEGs and we can see it in the functional output of the studies that we do of what is the actual effect of this thing. Right? Did we know did I know it was going to do this? I had no idea because the the I didn't know what the end result was going to be.

It led here by just following what the body was responding to. Right? There's a natural science to our body that if we listen to it and we agree with it, say, "This is what it ends up at." People say, "Well, what if you're wrong?" I go, "Then I'm wrong." wrong." wrong." When you did the first studies on actual outcome, in other words, I see that this is changing the EEG from more pain to less pain. less pain. less pain. But does this actually translate to the person saying, "I feel less pain." When did you start first start that was so getting See, EEGs are easy to do relatively speaking.

Right? Because it's it's it's harmless. You can do it. You can measure different EEG readings. You can run analysis on it. But to actually study a live patient base, you need to work with a CRO. You need to work with a pain specialist that somebody understands how pain works and how it's measured and how it's regulated. regulated. regulated. And it was next to impossible to get somebody to work with us. Why? Why? Why? Because what I'm proposing is so ridiculous. ridiculous. ridiculous. Sure. Nobody wants to put their name to it.

So I'm like, "Okay, this is not going to work. I'm going to pay you more. How about that? that? that? No, it didn't work. I tried that. I tried. We tried everything, right?" So I'm like, "Okay, how do we solve this problem?" So again, it's first principles. Who else is doing this? this? this? So So So there's a menthol patch company. It's the largest pain patch company in the world. It's owned by a Japanese pharmaceutical company. And I said, "Who did their study? and I found their study.

Then I found out who the CRO was of that study and I called him. Called Peter at Clarity Research and I said, "Hey, Peter, my name is Jay. I made a topical patch. It's non-transdermal. Helps with pain, sleep, da da da." He listens. He's like, "Send me something." He goes, "I don't know." He goes, "Send me some product." I send him the pain patch, the sleep patch. He calls me two weeks later. He goes, "I tried your sleep patch. I'm interested." He goes, "But I need to meet you.

Are you real?" He comes to Toronto. He's in he's on the east coast. east coast. east coast. Uh comes and he visits. We spend a day together. He goes he goes, "I can't guarantee it." He goes, "But we're going to call Jeff Gooden right now." Jeff Guten is a professor of anesthesiology at the University of Miami. He did that other study. He was a lead investigator. Okay? Okay? Okay? And I go, "Who do you want?" I go, "That guy, guy, guy, the guy who's the known expert is the guy that I want to do the study.

I'm not going to go to some guy doesn't know anything about this. He knows the category and he's a professor of anesthesiology at the Miller School of Medicine. I go, "Yeah, that's the guy." He He calls calls calls Dr. Guten from my office. He says, "Jeff, I'm with a prospective new client. We want to do a pain study." He goes, high level explains what it is. And Jeff Gooden says to him, "Let him know that no matter what the findings are, if I do the study, I'm publishing it.

it. it. It's going to cost him money. Big risk. Big risk. Big risk. It's going to cost him money, but we're going to publish whatever we find." And Peter goes, he says he's going to publish whatever he finds. I go, "I hope so." so." so." I go, "I'm in." And that's how I started. And that was the first study. Was it on pain or sleep? It was on pain and sleep. Pain. And how much how much tell talk tell talk tell how tell talk tell talk tell talk tell how much studies cost to run because I've got 16 peer-reviewed studies published six indexed on PubMed another three coming this year we're about $9 million in since 2023 now talk about the result the first results you had in the first study which was pain and sleep what did you see um 50% reduction in perceived pain a 70% reduction in interference scores how much is the pain interference in your quality of life.

That was the first study we saw. And this was pain that was over four. Baseline is going down to two two in a bit. On the sleep study, we saw people reduce their time to fall asleep by about 50%. And sleeping 25% longer, waking up refreshed. The part that really changed the quality of life issue in the sleep study was this. These are all people that had bad or horrible sleep. sleep. sleep. At the end of the two week studies, 85% have good or great sleep.

85% 85% 85% 85%. 85%. 85%. Wow. Wow. Wow. Before the study, 85% were waking up three times during the night. At the end of the study, 85% are only waking up one time during the night. Wow. Wow. Wow. Complete change in quality of life. Crazy, Crazy, Crazy, right? And we're like, "Oh, this is exciting." exciting." exciting." How pumped was he when he after he he did this? did this? did this? Yeah. How these these be He's like He goes, "You want to go public?" I'm like, "No, I'm not.

Because listen in and not in a bad way. It's like you need to talk to my friends at Big Farmer. I go, "No, no, no, no, no." I go, "This is a whole different deal." deal." deal." I I go, "This is this is not the this is the path before the pill. This isn't this isn't a deal to sell out to big pharma. That's not the plan, right? Because Because Because that that's not in line with what I'm trying to do." And I don't have anything against big pharma.

They solve a lot of problems for a lot of people, but it's not the road that I'm on. People like, "Oh, you want to pick a fight with farm?" I go, "No, I want to give people options, drug free options." options." options." So these the this data, which is crazy, by the way, 50% reduction. Um, it's like that's that's pharmaceutical territory. pharmaceutical territory. pharmaceutical territory. Mhm. Mhm. Mhm. Just for people who aren't familiar like Yeah, it's a big deal. Big deal. Sleep. That's a big deal.

And so the first one was observational and this is what got me on the phone with you by the way. What is what is I mean what is Doug pulled this up. What is What is the reduction on the studies on Advil? It's not more than that. No, no, it's similar. Uh yeah, I was going to say it's got to be it's better than the mental patch that that that that That's for sure. It's Yeah, It's Yeah, It's Yeah, but this is And this is a 24-hour relief.

Oh, by the way, the relief is 24 hours. Yeah. Yeah. It doesn't wear off and and this is not um pharmaceutical. There's no drug no drug no drug and it doesn't contradict with anything you're doing. So, here here's here's the impact. impact. impact. 400 milligrams of Advil provides at least 50% pain relief. Yeah. You're talking about the same wheelhouse and it's it's and you can't you can't keep up Advils for 24 hours. Right. Right. Right. I'm just saying. Yeah. Right. So this is the impact, right?

We talk about impact. For me, it's all about impact. How many lives can we impact in a positive way? People that drive heavy machinery for a living, they can't take pain pills. It makes them drowsy. We all know what it does to your kidneys. We all know what it does to your liver. your liver. your liver. This is not new. This is not data that I'm making up. Right? So, but people need relief. And the reason we have an opioid crisis is because people had pain.

That's how it started, started, started, right? We will do anything to get out of pain, pain, pain, right? because it's it's it's the great thief of life, right? And so we do that. Then you take a look at sleep. There's a melatonin crisis in in this country right now that no one's talking about. about. about. There will be a melatonin epidemic in the coming months, coming years as big as the opioid crisis. People are giving it to kids. Yeah. And the doses are crazy. It's It's out of hand, man.

You know this, right? this, right? this, right? But why? Because Oh, can't put the kid down. I'm like, really? That's the answer? Dose your kid with melatonin? That's not the plan. So, first is pain. Then you go and sleep. What is the next? Okay. So, then we said, "Okay, it's great. We have the observation study. Then we have to do a control study." Okay. Okay. Okay. Then we did it. Say, "No, no, I I So, now you got to pay with now you got to pay for study with with a placebo with a control." Okay, that's done.

Okay, great. Then we did stress. We do the peace patch study. 33% reduction in perceived stress and a 24% improvement in mental health factors without a pill. Yeah, big was like, "Okay, great." Then we did the control on that and then we did a complete RCT study with actual functional movement with a pain patch again. again. again. So, another So, another So, another another one. another one. another one. Right. Right. Right. Cuz you know, God forbid the two were fluke. fluke. fluke. Right. Right. Right. And these are all P values at 001, which is the gold standard of research.

That's right. That's right. That's right. Like, why do you have to do it? I go because I'm up I'm going uphill. If I was given the same leeway leeway leeway as nutrition as supplementation, I wouldn't have to do what I do. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Right. But because the world is completely unfamiliar with what I'm proposing, the evidence of proof is and and I don't listen, this this is what I chose to do. Jay, it's the only way. It's the only way I would have had you on the show.

No, but this studies, if you had no studies, I would have totally blown you off. I'm just being totally honest. I'm so out there and so wild sounding. But you forget that I'm an engineer. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, you're the same way. No, I'm like, "Yeah, don't feeding me [ __ ] I'm I'm sorry, but I I don't I'm the hardest person to get over on the math, which makes you the perfect person to do this." this." this." I I people give me some go this is not real.

Like I I see problems in Excel spreadsheets and production. I'm like, "Yeah, that's wrong. How do you know?" I go, "This is what I do. That's wrong." You could put a spreadsheet the size of this table in front of me. I look at it for 30 days. I go, "Yeah, see that data? That number there? It's off." They go, "Why?" I go, "I don't know. You wrote it, but that's off." So, so I got to ask you this because this is totally radical, totally different from anything else.

The data is wild. And you have six published studies now. studies now. studies now. No, no, 16 published studies. Excuse me. Six on PubMed. Three more coming. So, reviewed. And so, this is all peer-reviewed, published. But there's actually better. So, we've presented our research at 25 of the leading medical congresses in the world. I was just going to ask you because this is a totally new brand new area of research, medicine, science, but it's growing. growing. growing. Okay. So, because of you now is are lots of people now investing time and energy in this.

in this. in this. So many really so many we we get calls for collaborations from big pharma, from universities. there's a lot of things happening in the background and and I said, "Listen, I'll sh my my job and my role is impact. What I'm not going to do is give away, right?" Because like, well, you have to I go, "Listen, there's things we'll do and things we won't do." Right? I got here without you. I'm going to get there without you. Plus, you're 40 million in.

They got to make your money back. There's an economic engine to this, right? But, but this is the thing. The impact is real because of the response we've had with the product. Mhm. Mhm. Mhm. We have millions of users across the world. The product's available in 35 countries. I tell you what, if it wasn't cuz when you sent us when you guys sent us the patches, I put on focus first cuz I just think it's fun. So, let's see if I get more focus. And I I thought I felt something.

I'm like, ah, I'm more focused. But you get in your own head. Is it placebo? It's all in your head. Yeah. Is it placebo? Literally, it's all in your head. Right. Right. Right. Um and then, you know, Adam's trying out the pain one and I try the sleep one out and I come back, I'm like, I'm I'm telling you guys, I think I this is crazy. And then I look at the study, I'm like, this is wild. Because it's not like a little bit of a difference.

difference. difference. No, it's significant. It's a it's a really big difference. Statistically significant and it's clinically significant. There's a that's that's where the rubber hits the road. Explain the difference. So statistical sign is a math thing. Yeah. It's like is it more than 4% more than the than the than the is it this like it's it's with a p value. So statistical is p value, right? Do you have enough people to get you a p value that's strong? Right. And I told the guys I go listen we got to get 0.005 is what's required but I want z1.

Why? For me again it's detached from the outcome. If I don't get the result I want that just means I got to go back and redesign it to make it better. People say what if the study doesn't come back. I go that's just the answer that this I didn't design it right. I know that this is possible because of what the EGs and I I know I can get it there. there. there. I just design the right stimulation. So I got to go back and I got to do a better job better job better job right or a newer job.

And and that gives me so much freedom to not worry about what the outcome of the study is going to be. If it doesn't work, it doesn't work, work, work, right? right? right? I'll just do it. I'll go make a better mouse trap. And you do it again, right? But if I was a public company or I took investments from people, all of a sudden it's a different game. Now you're answering to different stakeholders. stakeholders. stakeholders. Talk about make my money back just cuz we have a fitness because you guys have a lot of different patches.

Talk about the the athletic performance. So that's the that's the last study that just dropped the victory patch. Okay. So explain. So what does the study show on that? because we it's obviously so we did this at the University of Arizona with their athletic teams done by Dr. Mark Saker who's head of the medical director of athletics at University of Arizona. So we went okay where would it be cool to do the study so now we're getting traction because we have studies right now we're getting people that want to do studies weird how that happened excited about it.

Yeah. Yeah. It's well cuz if it cuz he was skeptical too. skeptical too. skeptical too. He's like this I go I go Mark but what if you're the guy that brings this to the world with me? Mhm. He goes, "Yeah, I'm not interested." He goes, he goes, "Talk to me." So, I spent days with him walking him through step by step. He goes, "This makes logical sense." I go, "If it makes logical sense, there's no harm. We're going to get the IRB. Everything's done. We do this." So, this is what we found with their D1 athletes.

A 5 to 8% performance improvement in lower extremity power, knee extension, knee extension, knee extension, power output. power output. power output. Wow. And we see a statistically significant improvement in body symmetry, meaning weak side becoming as balanced as the dominant side, right? right? right? We're talking about 5 to 8% in elite athletes. athletes. athletes. Just for people listening, like get this like lettuce supplement ever would produce like 4% like if you're lucky of some kind of a difference. Like this that's like a big for a D1 athlete.

It's a big deal. Well, these guys are they're already checking all the boxes. your peak, best training, best nutrition, best coaching, and the best genetics. I mean, it is what it is. You don't get to Arizona University of Arizona playing on their team if you suck. Like, I mean, you're you're in the program, right? right? right? They're already they're already doing all the big rocks. They're doing everything. And they have for a long time. Like, you can't walk off the out of your bedroom and say, "I'm going to go play for University of Arizona." That doesn't happen.

No. No. No. There's a decade before that, right, of commitment. of commitment. of commitment. Right. Right. Right. Right. And if we can see the change there, I know it's going to be a much bigger change. bigger change. bigger change. Yeah. Average people for the average person. People say, "Why?" I go, "It's real simple." We we adapt downwards with our neurology. neurology. neurology. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Cuz we can't consciously speak to those systems, right? Who taught us coping mechanisms when we were kids? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Anybody?

Anybody? Anybody? Yeah. No. Yeah. No. Yeah. No. Nobody. Nobody. Nobody. And stress is the number one performance robber there is. Yeah. And it's the number one health issue in by the way in collegiate sports, sports, sports, right? right? right? It's everything stressed out, right? But if we want to take a look at sheer performance, this is what we saw. So we've taken this, we've presented it to all the teams in the NFL. Half the teams are on the product. Really? Really? Really? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. We've taken it to dozens of teams in the NBA, dozens of teams in Major League Baseball.

We will be in every locker room by the end of the year. Can you stack patches? Yes, absolutely. And there's no, it doesn't take away from the other path. No, no, because because remember all these networks are firing at the same time anyways. time anyways. time anyways. Oh, true. Oh, true. Oh, true. They're all different highways. They're all different. They're all So, so I'm thinking for an athlete, it's like peace, pain, uh, uh, focus, you know, focus, ignite, and you're just like, let's go. They go.

So, so, so the stack that you know that because you know, my friend Jordan, like he talks to a lot of elite athletes, right? Like yourselves and everybody else. And I go, you want to start your day and and physical performance is your thing, put on the boost patch for energy, slap on the victory patch. And if and if you have a cerebral role to play, put on the focus patch, right? If you're just hitting people, maybe you don't need it. Have you done Have you I'm sure you have.

I don't I mean, I don't know if you've done these, but have you done studies on stacking these to see if there's a cumulative effect? There is. There is a cumulative effect. Okay. Okay. Okay. Why? Because neuroplasticity is real. When I started this, every thought neuroplasticity was voodoo. Yeah. So, but when you get your neural network into a better baseline, it holds longer because that's the new normal. So, over time, what you find is your baseline is higher even without the patch, patch, patch, which is the beauty, right?

right? right? What we're working against though is life, life, life, injury, illness, stress, our environment is always compromising our neural networks. So, what the patch is a good restore mechanism. Bring it back to normal. When we normal. Bring it back to normal. When we start building on that new baseline, that becomes our new baseline over time. That's cool. Yeah, it's great. That's really cool. really cool. really cool. When I was thinking about this, um, something came to mind. Uh, did you look into any of the studies with like chinesio tape and like the Yes.

There's no I don't want anybody to get mad, but there is no study that shows any efficacy for tape. Wow. Wow. Wow. Athletic performance. Athletic performance. Athletic performance. Yeah. But you still feel something. No, but because they're because I believe they're not looking at the right things, right? But this is the analogy that I give you when I talk to sports medicine people, sports chiropractors, sports physios is kinesis tape has been around 30 years. How does it work? Well, kinesisio tape is general stimulation, general signaling, right?

Cuz it's flat. We've taken the same contact and added very specific signaling to it. It's the same pathways. It's the same receptors, receptors, receptors, just much more fine tuned. This is just specific in this. It's more honed in on it. Like, oh, like, okay, now I get it. of go. But like I said, this is so elegantly simple that we try to over complicate it and we get like it's not that hard. What's the response since you went? How long have you guys been to market?

We launched January 14th, 23. Okay. So, it's it's only been a few years. years. years. Three years. Three years. Three years. What's What's the response been like? It's been phenomenal. It's been phenomenal. We phenomenal. We phenomenal. We Hardest part has got to be just convincing knuckleheads like us. That's got to be the to get in the doors. But I knew but listen so use your words to get to the knuckleheads like you. I needed the 9 million studies. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yep. Yep. Yep.

Yep. No, but this is but this everything is a everything's a road map, right? I I I I flowchart everything step by step by step. Right. So we launched two studies. First year we did 60 million. Second year we almost doubled to 100. You mean sales? Sales. Third year 200. We'll touch half a billion dollars this year. year. year. Wow. Wow. Wow. And so and great repurchase rate customer. customer. customer. It's phenomenal. It's phenomenal. It's phenomenal. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Listen, if something that doesn't interfere with your lifestyle, Yeah.

It's not internal. It's easy to use. It's not interact. No side effects any internal. You can put it in your bag. Doesn't matter. Take it out. Doesn't expire. Travel with it anywhere you want to go. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. No issues. No issues. No issues. So, tell me talk about the ones you have. You have pain, sleep, athletic performance. What else? What? Stress. So, stress. mood. Um, we have immune support. Okay. Okay. Okay. We have men's health support. So, that's like what? Libido, sex, libido. Okay. libido.

Okay. libido. Okay. Um, what did we cover off? There's 15 different solutions. So, we have Zen, which is flows flow state. Zen's like one of our last products and probably one of our bestselling products now. Okay. Okay. Okay. It gets you into flow in 15 minutes. Really? Really? Really? Oh, that's cool. Wow. Wow. Wow. Yeah. The golfers are losing their mind. How cool would that be to like uh do that with Brain FM? Yeah. Oh, yeah. Combo. Yeah. So my friend Jordan was at this crazy golf tournament this past weekend and just given the Zen patch I told the golfers, they're like, "Dude, I'm in flow.

I'm in zone." That's great. That's great. That's great. In 15 minutes, it's it's epic, right? The sure patch for motion sickness and nausea. There's also I could also imagine um there's no issues with giving this like with age issues. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So, yes and no. Oh, good. Okay, tell me. Yes and no. There's no issue, but kids are stupid. They put everything in their mouth. Okay. Okay. Okay. Don't let them eat it. Yeah, it's a problem. Stick it in the middle of the bathroom. I got a one-y old granddaughter.

Everything Rosie know like it's okay. okay. okay. So, I'm like, "Okay, let's just keep it 12 and above, but even 12 and up. What else do we have there?" Like, you know, we talked to large sports organizations who are working with young kids, right? kids, right? kids, right? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Supplementation, there's risk. Yep. Yep. Yep. There's dosage risk. Medication, medication, there's a lot of things, right? So, here's something that you can actually give to somebody to use. The worst that's going to happen, two things.

They're not going to get a benefit. benefit. benefit. So, we have a 95% efficacy rate. So, there's 5% of people that don't see a response. Okay? And then we'll talk about why that is. And some people allergic to the adhesive. Nothing I can do with it. Sure. Right. So, let's talk about that 5% why some people don't see as a as a good result as somebody else. There's three things from my experience and in building this thing that I've noticed. First is where is anybody's baseline?

Where are they in their health and wellness journey? wellness journey? wellness journey? Right? What are they dealing with? Right? Are they are they barely surviving? Are they thriving? Or somewhere in between? That plays a role. The second thing that plays a role is something that I call neuropotential. What is the potential of their neurology of their central nervous system combined with their peripheral nervous system? Got it. How's how how well can it perform? Okay. And the third thing is neuroefficiency. How efficient is their nervous system stimulation?

Those three things combined together is is is is generally dictates the response somebody's going to get, right? And we're like, well, that's logical. I go, I know, but if I don't tell them, then they go, go, go, go, go, go, go. I didn't get the same, you know, response as Sal did. Well, yeah. Well, look at you and look at Sal. I mean, there's there's two different people. So, people. So, people. So, 95% efficacy is like like you can't expect. expect. expect. Yeah, that's So, is it uh more or less common that somebody who is really unhealthy is going to feel the difference or not feel the difference?

So the the healthier you are, the more likely you are or like what's the correlation? correlation? correlation? It depends. It depends. It depends. Oh, it depends. It depends. Right. So we don't talk about conditions, right? So we're classified as a medical as an FD as a class one medical device. Okay. Right. So which means general health and wellness for the large part. We we could talk about the thing that's changing. So the study shows pain relief. The study shows shows shows but you can't say this is for this migraine or this is for No.

Right. No. Right. No. Right. Right. Why? Because now we're getting into classification of a condition and a disease which we don't want to be into. Right? So people say look what are you dealing with? I was say what are you dealing with? Aches and pains. Try the freedom patch. Got it. You're not sleep. Well sleep is not a disease. Right? But if you need better sleep do this. Stress is not a disease. Right? Right? Right? You can have stress. It's not a disease. We all have stress in one way or another.

Right. So we're very because I I don't want to cause problems for myself or the company by going down roads that I don't. Have you thought about looking at appetite suppression? appetite suppression? appetite suppression? Uh yeah. Looking at it right now. So we know that that's huge. Night patch does it, but we the study's on right now. So, we we did a small pilot, hasn't published. We saw about a 20% improvement in RMR with Ignite Patch and we see Wait, wait, wait. 20% improvement with resting metabolic rate.

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So, someone's metabolism got faster. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. By 20%. By 20%. By 20%. In in the hundreds of calories in a study. It's it's on right now. Wow. Wow. Wow. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. It's fascinating. Well, that's crazy. It's it's nuts. and and and and part of the the feedback we're getting from the people that study is they're not hungry also. also. also. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Wow. Huh. Well, that's wild. But again, until it's published Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. We uh we keep going.

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. It never ends, right? For me, it never end like when we started the patch were 2 in by 2 in and I found they were too big. big. big. Mhm. Mhm. Mhm. So, we spent another six million to make them inch and a half by an inch and a half. half. half. Okay. Okay. Okay. So, the money goes fast. It goes really fast because listen, if you commit to something, you have to commit to the innovation, right? There's an inflection point in every business.

There's an inflection point in any industry. And the only thing that fixes an inflection point is solving two issues. The only way to do it is either give new value to your c current customers or create new value for a new base of customers. Right? What that involves is innovation. Right? There's a reason there's a new iPhone every year and everybody buys one. one. one. Right. Right. Right. We're all suckers. But the reality is there's some feature there that people want. That's right. Yeah. Right. And Right.

And Right. And they brilliantly designed it that way. For sure. For sure. For sure. But listen though, but even even what you guys gentlemen do, right? The iteration of your of your production. Sure. Sure. Sure. Of of your messaging, of your commitment to yourself, there's a transformation. I saw those pictures outside. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Right. Right. Right. Yeah, Yeah, Yeah, you're different dudes now than you were when you started. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Well, this this smarter, wiser, better. I mean, look at this place. This is this is a million dollar studio.

dollar studio. dollar studio. Well, this is it's just it's so fascinating, so interesting. If it wasn't for all the studies, I wouldn't have given it a second thought. But the studies are real. People can look them up, you guys. You can you can find them. They're real studies. Uh the results are legit and they're repeated. we've experienced uh the effects and um I mean it works. It's really wild. It's crazy. It's a completely different category. You've invented a completely. Thank you for saying that. And so so the last so for me it's always about the best make the best thing.

I focused on that. Work with the best people hire the best people. Make the best product. Right? And and so in health and wellness, the last percentile is is physicians. That's where people go to get better. So So my goal was to be the number one drug-free wellness solution recommended by doctors. by doctors. by doctors. So as of this morning, we're over 5,000 MDs in America recommending our product from their offices. That's great. That's great. That's great. Wow. That's cool. That's awesome. Why the study cell what you said is the reference point, right?

Without that, I don't none of that happens. No. No. No. True. True. True. Right. Right. Right. It doesn't work. Yeah. But you've just created a completely new category that I'm sure other people are going to try. Yeah. They're going to try through. Oh, no. They come and they try and and then it doesn't work. But you patented your stuff. We protected ourselves really well. Yeah. Like maniacally. Well, and then so they try to copy, they don't copy, they try to buy us, and so we're not for sale.

Will you remain private? Always. Always. Always. That's cool. That's cool. That's cool. Is this a legacy? That's cool. That's cool. That's cool. Yeah. and my son and my daughter both work with me, so they're well in tune in terms of what used to happen here. Um, the goal is to bring drug-free wellness to the world, right? What the world has experienced uh 5 years ago, four years ago. ago. ago. I'm not down with that. People need a choice. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Right. Right. Right. Option. Do what you want, but give me a choice.

Give me a choice and then we'll go from there. It's the no choice part that I don't roll with. roll with. roll with. Same. Same. Same. Yeah, I know. Yeah. No choice we're talking about right now. Yeah. Yeah. Well, well, Jay, this has been awesome. Um, and, uh, I think our audience is is going to be convinced like we are remarkable. The amount of energy, time, and money you spent to do this really blows me away. That's crazy. It's a lot of time. A lot. You're talking years and years and years, tens of millions of dollars.

uh studies alone are super expensive but I you've literally created a completely new category of appreciate you guys of treating uh uh issues and symptoms. This is a complete new category. Well, listen, you're so kind to say that and thank you and and it is a category of one. There's nothing like it. This is the reality. 85% of people in any doctor's office in America are there for one of three reasons. Some kind of aches and pain, poor sleep, low energy. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Mhm. Mhm.

Mhm. Let's solve that. Let's have let's make impact, right? And so, you know, meeting all of you guys and South Tai on the phone, I mean, this is you guys are the cohorts that we want on our side, right? To bring this message to the world because it's all education. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. It's all awareness and education, right? So, So, So, let's do it, man. Let's get it out. appreciate you coming on and and I know that you I told you you come on and I question you and have you talk about all this stuff but and you know like when we talked on the phone you were able to provide all that stuff and it wasn't like I I made it easy but you showed me all the stuff and no fluff man.

Yeah, dude. So great job. Well, thanks but for me it's like listen it's just like let's talk about it. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I don't know. Why does that do I go? I don't know. don't know. don't know. Yeah, but you're not you're not BSing. This is legit. You got the stuff to back it up, the data to back it up. That's that's the part that that's the part that people don't understand is you got to do that. that. that. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Right. You got to do that.

Especially when you're thinking, well, here's this magic patch magic patch magic patch and by the way, there's nothing in it. By the way, it's like, oh [ __ ] here we go. Like what? Like, you know, people go, this is not a Harry Potter patch. Like, this is science. There's no hocus pocus here. And like, read the research. Nobody reads it, by the way. Yeah. No, I that was first thing I looked at. looked at. looked at. Yeah, we do. But the majority people say go people ask me they go how does this magnet thing work?

I go I don't know I didn't make that. I made this. Ask me about this. It's just this right. But no but the category is blowing up. So did you hear when Nike launched that shoe? The mind shoe. Oh yeah you talked. They got those little stimulators in the Yeah. I did that 15 years ago. I go you guys are so old. so old. so old. Right. But even but there but they still don't get it down. You know what they don't have? don't have? don't have?

Research. Oh yeah. Do you still sell the socks or do you sell Absolutely. sell Absolutely. sell Absolutely. Oh, so you do still sell socks? We do. Great. Yeah. I think that's cool. That's awesome. That's awesome. That's awesome. Yeah, it's it's awesome sauce. It's really I just love seeing the change on people. people. people. For me, that's the thing, right? Like, you know, he goes, "Oh, you must be, you know, made so much money." I go, we put it right back in the business. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

There's no other choice. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Right. If we want to get this to the where we believe it, I mean, you pioneered something is where what you've done. Really pioneered something. something. something. Well, the first guy through the door always has a bloody nose, so I got that, too. too. too. Well, hey man, thanks. Thanks for coming on. This was really, really awesome. Really appreciate what you're doing. You guys You guys You guys and uh like I said, one of my favorite things about what we do uh and regardless of how terrible I can be is I love getting my paradigm shattered.

I love getting my mind changed. You totally did it. So, yeah. Great job, dude. Thank you, dude. Great job. Appreciate you guys all. Thank you so much. All right. I know you like that episode. If you did, check this one out. Walking. It's one of the best things you could do for your health, bar none. But there's a better way to approach it. Yes, you can just walk, but if you follow the right protocol, it's far more effective. Let's talk about talk about talk about walking.

I can't wait to hear your walking protocol. walking protocol. walking protocol. Well, there is. Well, there is a protocol. So, and I'll start with the first thing, right? Cuz just first off, uh let me start with this. One of the reasons why walking um is such a great form of just activity is because it's low risk of injury. Now some