This Forgotten Exercise Builds Your Back, Bulletproofs Your Shoulders and Boosts Your Bench | 2939

Key Takeaway

Add cross-bench dumbbell pullovers to your upper-body training this week. Start light, lower the dumbbell only as far as you can control comfortably, pause in the stretched position, and gradually build range of motion before adding load. This often-neglected movement trains the lats, triceps, chest, shoulder mobility, thoracic extension, and bracing at once—making it a high-return exercise for a stronger back, healthier shoulders, and better pressing mechanics.

Episode Overview

The hosts make the case for the cross-bench dumbbell pullover as a forgotten, high-value exercise for back development, shoulder resilience, thoracic mobility, and bench-press carryover. In listener coaching, they also emphasize patient injury rehabilitation, unilateral and isometric training when appropriate, and reverse dieting for active women who have spent years under-eating and over-training.

Full Transcript

Transcript of This Forgotten Exercise Builds Your Back, Bulletproofs Your Shoulders and Boosts Your Bench | 2939 from Mind Pump Show. Auto-generated from episode audio; may contain minor errors.

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I'm talking right now. Hit pause. Head on over to MindPumpStore.com. That's it. Enjoy the rest of the show. Look, do you wanna build your back? Do you wanna bulletproof your shoulders? Do you wanna boost your bench press? There's one exercise that does all of that, and it's one exercise a lot of you are not doing. It's a phenomenal movement. You gotta do it. It's great. We're gonna talk about it today. The cross bench dumbbell pullover. Let's get to it. Forgotten great movement. It is. That's a good exercise.

So when you break down this exercise, which we're gonna do, we're gonna break it down on why it's such an awesome exercise, but when you break it down, it becomes clear why this was such a prized movement in the early days of bodybuilding and strength training. Because back in the day, lifters prized certain exercises for two reasons. One, it was a feat of strength that seemed to matter. They didn't pick any exercise to see how strong they were. It's not like you were competing over a calf raise.

They would do lifts that meant you were really strong, like an overhead press. That's an obvious one. Like lift a heavyweight overhead. If you can lift more than I can, you're probably just stronger than I am overall. So that's a good example. The other reason why they prized certain movements is that they just noticed to change their bodies. It just developed great muscle, great definition, functionality. And back in the day, the cross bench pullover was one of those lifts. Like this was a lift that bodybuilders used to compare each other over.

They would compete with. In fact, they would even do it with a barbell at times to see how strong they were. And somehow it just kind of fell out of favor to the point where you actually still, even today we talk about this exercise all the time, but even today you rarely see people doing these in the gym, which is such a travesty because they're such a phenomenal movement. I wonder why. Yeah, because it's such a valuable exercise. Maybe because it's hard to get into? No, I have a guess.

What is it? I think, I mean, what is the thing that we learn all these years of podcasting? Like the most simple, basic stuff that we talk about is the most appealing and shareable and people, like it's just, and I think that movement is not obvious. It doesn't fall neatly into account. Oh yeah, like you don't, like the average person, okay, obviously we have a lot of educated listeners and so they're probably, well, I know exactly what it's for. Okay, most people would see a dumbbell pullover of a client who just hired you and you show them that movement.

You said, what are you working here? I guarantee they would go, I have no idea. No idea, you're wrong too. Yeah, exactly, and they'd probably be wrong. And so I think because of that, people are just unsure of what they're supposed to be feeling, doing, and so I think that's why, because it's really not that hard to get into. You really don't need a lot of room. You can easily regress with weight and range of motion. There's a lot of reasons why it shouldn't be forgotten, but I do think it's one of those things.

It's like when you walk in a gym and you see one of those really complex machines that don't make sense. You're like, yeah, what is this? You know, and some people walk away from it. I think you're right, and I think the other reason why is it's been replaced by inferior replacements. So if you look at like a straight arm pull down with a rope or a straight bar, you see that happen. I go into gyms and I see that exercise probably once a week, right?

Whereas I see a dumbbell crossbench pullover, never. And if you looked at them both, you'd think they were the same. They're not. It's a similar movement, but they're not the same movement. Unbelievably inferior. Yes, it's so different. It's funny you bring that up because I haven't thought about it. Yeah, I needed a thought of that. I haven't thought about it in a long time, and that was such a bodybuilder movement. Yeah, with a cable. Yes, or the ropes. It was just, and I'd always be like, dude, why?

Yeah, with the cables, I'm like, grab a dumbbell. And the stretch that you get on the dumbbell, how much you could load it, like just so much better. It's interesting too, because one is a mass building, power strength building movement. The other one is like a squeeze isolation. Yeah, that's what, you know, bodybuilders use it as a finisher. That's right, 100%. So let's talk about why this is such a phenomenal exercise and why it should be in your routine. Well, first off, it's a fundamental human movement.

So there are certain human movements that you should train and strengthen because we consider them what are considered fundamental. So an easy one would be this, like walking is fundamental, right? Humans need to walk. So now we don't need to exercise it as much because we still do it all the time. Squatting, overhead pressing. Squatting, overhead pressing, you know, being able to pull, being able to twist. These are called foundational human movements. Well, getting your arm, your humerus from up here to down, kind of cross body is fundamental.

Our ability to throw is one of the things that makes us unique as animals. Like there is no animal that throws more accurately than a human. In fact, a five-year-old can throw with more accuracy than any primate. And that's one of the reasons why we became such successful hunters, is we were able to throw with incredible power and accuracy. And if you look at the shoulder joint and how the humerus moves in conjunction with the scapula and how everything moves together and all the muscles are attached, you can see clearly that it's designed to be able to throw really effectively.

Well, a cross bench pullover strengthens this movement and keeping it strong protects your shoulder joint and it makes your whole body strong. That's the thing about fundamental human movements. When you strengthen them, they tend to have all kinds of crazy carryover. Example is a squat, right? A leg press is great, it's good exercise, but it doesn't have the same carryover to everyday life like a squat does. And that's because a squat is a fundamental human movement, whereas a leg press, not so much. This is very true of the cross bench pullover.

I love that you compared it to that because one of the things that I've connected the dots personally with keeping pullovers in my routine, what it's done for my overall shoulder health reminds me of what deep squatting has done for my overall hip health. Like just the, like I talked about how long it took me to get a real deep squat. I had a lot of hip pain, a lot of low back pain. Once I had got the mobility to be able to do that, just maintaining a deep squat has kept my hips and my low back really healthy.

I'd say the same thing about my shoulder. The ability to get a good full range of motion pullovers has kept my shoulders in really good. And one of the things I always know is if I start to feel like I'm locking up there, I tend to go right back over to that and get back into my routine. So huge value when it comes to that. Totally. Yeah, and especially too, like I wanna say it's like an antidote to throwing, but it's like basically being able to sustain that type of like forward movement with your upper body so that now we train it and we get that eccentric work and control and like it helps keep everything intact and strong.

It does. To counter it. It was, so a pullover, now I'll be clear, there are regressions to the pullover, but the pullover itself was always part of my arsenal for all my clients who had shoulder problems. So you may look at a pullover and think, oh, you know, those of you that are familiar with it, oh, that's a bodybuilding movement, builds a lot of muscle. For shoulder mobility, it's magic. And here's why. When you have a client or when I would have a client that had shoulder problems, oftentimes it was when they were trying to lift their arm up above their head.

They'd only get it up to a certain point and then it would hurt and they weren't able to. But when they're resisting a weight that brings their arm back over their head, suddenly they have shoulder mobility. Suddenly the shoulder joint opens up and we're able to now move the humerus, move the upper arm into this position that they can't normally bring into position themselves. And this opened things up. This pullover movement was like eight out of 10 times was the only thing I had to do to fix people's shoulder.

This is what they found. This is why like stretching, the whole techniques have changed over the years is because like when you actually can tense the muscle up, you create more stability, which then sends that signal to your central nervous system. We're safe. We're safe going further in this range of motion because now we have a stability support system in place. Totally. You're forcing the body to like regain connectivity in that range of motion. I mean, I remember that aha moment. It wasn't that long ago.

We had actually started mind pump when we had seen Brink and we were doing 90-90s and we were trying to lift our back foot up. Oh, then he lifted it for you? Yeah. And it was just like, he lifted it all the way up there and I went- You can do it. Yeah. And it's just like, but I lost that ability. But if he held it and then I pushed against it, like then all of a sudden you would feel you getting reconnected there. That's what you're doing essentially with the weight in a pullover is you're letting the shoulder get in that place because you're resisting against the weight now that everything's waking up in that area that's been dormant probably for such a long time, especially for our advanced age clients that just haven't had to do this in so long.

They're just pruning the ability. And so when you stand them up and you go, hey, lift your arm up to your point, they go like this. And that's as far as I get. I lay them on the bench, grab a weight, and then I also think- All the way back. And they're resisting a weight so now they're waking all that up. Man, it's such a, it is. It reminds me. That's why I love that you connected it to the squat because that's what it reminds me of.

I had so much hip and low back pain. And it was, when I'm fit, right? I'm fit, I'm ripped, I'm lean, but I was only squatting down to parallel and I couldn't get deeper than that because of my lack of ankle mobility and my hip mobility. Once I addressed those things, got into a deep squat, I've never had those problems again just simply by lifting in a moderate way. Just being able to take that through full range of motion has changed everything. Totally. It's also one of the very few isolation exercises because it is an isolated, it is a single joint movement, but it doesn't behave like a single joint movement.

It actually builds muscle like a compound lift, which is wild. It pairs to muscles that aren't normally paired together. That's a right, yeah, so that's a great point. Lats and triceps. Whereas typically it's lats and biceps. Typically when you're doing a back exercise, it's biceps that are helping with a pull over, it's triceps. But back to the point that I was making, isolation movements don't typically build muscle like compound lifts. Everybody knows it. You also get a little bit of chest activation. This one builds like a compound.

Like if you gain 20 or 30 pounds on your dumbbell pull over, you build muscle like if you did a pull up or you're doing a row. It's one of those isolation. Then I think this is one of the reasons why bodybuilders used to compete with this or compare this lift because it was a mass builder. It definitely doesn't act like, I'll put it in a lift or in a routine as an isolation lift, but I know when I do it, I'm kind of getting the same muscle building effect I get from a compound lift, which is really cool.

And in fact, off the top of my head, I can't think of. As you're talking right now, I am trying to rack my brain like, what other movement has these properties that is considered a single joint or so an isolation movement, but yet has this like three, and those are decent, like you're talking about the lats, the chest and the triceps, like the three big opposing type of muscle. Like there's just not, it's very unique. It is. Like what else would be something like that? I don't know.

And I don't know of too many. Strength-training exercises that move from back to front in that way. Yeah, it's like I can't you really can't replace it into what? I like about it when you do the crossbench, and you know you're bridging that whole time So you're really driving you're working on leg drive, too Which I feel like it has you know some carryover to bench because of the fact that you're anchoring so hard by you know Lighting up your legs. I'm you know going through this whole range of motion.

You also get a great ab to It is very much so you did yeah unique in in like it's it's compound type of benefits Yet being in isolation. It's also great for thoracic mobility so all right. What is that right so think of somebody who's older? Who's got kind of that rounded upper back? I don't mean necessarily the shoulders are forward But you notice the upper spine the back so in an extreme case would be like a humpback right so you watch cartoons And they got like the scary bad guy with the humpback or whatever you know I was at the gym the other day, and I saw this in a couple elderly kind of older Individuals where they you know they're coming in they're working out, but they've got that really rounded kind of thoracic area that the thoracic part of the spine which is that upper back area and Improving mobility there would be moving it in the opposite direction now We could always work on rows try to pull the shoulder back trying to bring the short the chest out This is kind of what you would do But here with a cross bench pullover the resistance is making that thoracic mobility go in that direction It's moving the shoulders in a position pushing the chest forward to improve that mobility This was this was one of the big benefits.

I got from this exercise. I have a tendency to have a little bit of an Over-rounded thoracic area and when I do pullovers It's better why the bench is pushing up on my thoracic part of my spine. I'm using that resistance I'm expanding my ribcage pulling back and it stretches it moves it in the opposite role and Since you're in the corrective direction to one of the things again. That's so great about This is how easily you can regress this yeah I mean It's one of those movements where as a trainer I could like I could put my hand at a plate as far as I want them to go like here Let's just get there and then have them pause connect there You know and then over weeks we're getting deeper and deeper and further and further and you could start really really light I mean I've started clients with like it's just a little light 10-pound dumbbell They're doing and get work on that range of motion and connecting and then deeper and deeper And so you know it's a really easy movement that as a coach I can really regress and progress somebody really nicely over time without risking a lot of injury Which is always a great go-to move when you're a coach and again It's great for the lats like you want to get that nice V taper in your lats you want to stretch the lats load them In a stretch position.

Yeah, it's one of those exercise that does it. It's also good for Rib cage expansion now. I'm gonna be clear here It's not gonna give you a bigger rib cage the reason why I'm saying that is in the 60s and 70s Bodybuilders used the dumbbell crossbench pullover as a way to give them a bigger rib cage You might be thinking like why would they even want that well back in those days? Bodybuilders they used to like to show off their kind of side chest pose and bodybuilders still do this today that a side chest shot is a one of the Kind of staple poses that you do as a bodybuilder and when you do what you want to stick your chest out You're on the side.

You're kind of flexing your bicep But back in the 60s and 70s They really would stick their chest out and they used to all brag about who could put a glass of water on top of their upper Chest, but you needed a big rib cage to do it And it gave them that thickness from the side right so that you don't have this flat rib cage And they thought that the pullover made the rib cage bigger now. This is not what's happening It's not giving you a bigger rib cage.

You're not gonna change Necessarily how your rib cage looks but what you are doing is Stretching and strengthening all the muscles that connect the ribs to each other and this is important everybody If you've ever pulled out a rib if you've ever done an exercise your oh It feels like a rib is out or it's something happened there What happened is you've pulled or tightened one of those intercostals or one of those muscles that connect the ribs together Why is that important? Why would I want strong muscles or strong connections between ribs well first of all they float so they attach to the spine and they come around and Nothing connects them together except for the muscles and connective tissue in between and when that's strong and stable It gives you better ability to rotate it gives you better power Makes you more stable, but it gives you more torque gives you more more stable when you press overhead when you press in front Protectively impacts it protects you against impact It's very important And when those muscles are rigid and tight and not strong your ability to do a lot of exercises Goes down and this is one of the only exercises that through the movement you're expanding the ribcage and bringing it together Thus strengthening some of those muscles, so I saw you did that and you had the story today And I saw you did your favorite old school.

Yeah. Yeah, were you reading something or is that just on your mind? No, I was just on my mind today's my Life thing or whatever and I was like, you know, what are the lifts that you never see? People do in the gym that are just so awesome And that was the first one that came to mind because some exercises I know why we don't see them because they're really hard like a front squat. Like why doesn't anybody front squat? They suck But I pull over it's like you guys you gotta do this.

I just saw it was a trailer I think it's barbell films, but they're gonna like it's like a short documentary that they're making of like 1920s lifters No way. Yeah, really which I thought would be rad. So hopefully they come out with that soon But yeah, I saw this trailer is cool. They had all those You know old-time lifters and that, you know bodybuilders to you know, the performers We should research who's behind it as far as like the director who thought to put together probably make for a good interview Just oh, yeah, somebody put that together.

There's a reason why they put that together and a lot of people don't know much Yeah about that era. Yeah Yeah, it was a cool area. What's interesting to me? Is that all those they all had like regular jobs like they all had hard jobs that they weren't like farmer Yeah, you weren't making a ton of money Yeah, and yet they had the time to go lift weights and and do that and look amazing and be real strong Did they want did they also care of care about what they thought was building a ribcage to to?

Exaggerate the vacuum pose to was that also vacuum pose came because of the then it became about like how you looked So it was small waist. Yeah, I mean like how dramatic of a big ribcage small tiny waist. Yeah Yeah, that's when they started doing that stuff I got to talk about that you brought me you brought up the day in the life and in there I did You know like a little segment where I talked about what I liked and didn't like about you guys But I got to talk about being in the room with you when you negotiate Adam So yesterday, I just got to tell the audience this dude.

It is so puckers up. So so do you everybody? Listen like Negotiations with Adam like if you either have to leave the room or you have to really focus on trying not to talk So uncomfortable it's true because you you feel like he's like going too hard Did you get that from um, you know, I think it's definitely a skill but it's also a talent for sure Yeah, I've done it a lot right this point, right? I mean, I'm almost 45 years old and I've had a lot of conversations like that what I'd say it really stems from is and I and I wish I remember like the moment that this unlocked for me but and I want to attribute it to a Jack Welch book called winning and If I if I hope I'm referencing the right book that I got it from of just radical candor and how important that is in business negotiating and You know just being so honest and When you really think about it, it's really difficult to do that There's a there's a part of our human nature that wants to hold back hold back or appease the other person right and a lot of people like a lot of sales people are you know, Manipulating this and that and the more I've learned to lean in of just saying what's on my mind and what I believe to be true It comes off sometimes a little rough or brass But what I what I have found in that process is at the end of the day Even if people go back and forth and can be combative with me they were they tend to respect the conversation the the honesty and and sometimes I know I could like Probably push too far and I and and I'll say that I'll just be like listen I just I'm being just direct with you and so or I'm just being straight with you Like I could BS you and so there's I've learned to even be like if someone gets really yeah Cuz you have to be both Because I was thinking about this yesterday because again yesterday we're in the room and you're negotiating and it just sits every time I'm in the room I'm always like my god But I think you have to be both the best and worst person to negotiate against I would say best because You're gonna get you're gonna get it straight out and you're not it's not like you're trying to rip anybody off I've never heard you.

In fact, I've heard you negotiate with partners and Not push too hard because you're like we can't deliver like we I'm only gonna do what we can deliver I've heard you say that many times. It's like a lot. So that makes you the best You're also the worst because somebody trying to get a little bit of what I can have And I think of what you're what you're saying is I think it's just the it's the it's the just being really And I have a lot of conviction when I am honest about something and I've also to I've done my homework and my research I was just gonna say cuz you know what what you're worth.

It's like you're just going in to get the best Yeah, that's why you're so calm So yeah a lot of like so Katrina and I because Katrina manages a lot of obviously our partners now and so I'm not in the thick of it as much as I used to be when we when we first started and so when she wants to bring me into a Conversation and she said hey, I got a call set up for you I want you to talk to so-and-so from this or this company we work with at this time and Like I won't just go into that conversation and then then something like you saw yesterday play out I'm like, oh I need to know this I want this one and then I'll study all the stuff and then I'll Be like, okay.

I feel I feel very confident about this. I think this is fair This is what I want and then that's exactly what you're gonna get from me is I'm gonna just gonna go straight for that and I'm not gonna I'm Not gonna waver and I have I have conviction that I believe it to be true And I just will shoot it that way and it's not I don't think it was natural I think I've practiced that so much I've practiced because it's not easy. There is a part of me.

We talked about this with our journey of interviewing people It's in my it's in my nature to want to be liked by people and friends like, you know Like I I think we all have that and so, you know, there's you there's a part of that You're you're wanting to do is like you like you don't want to feel rude or mean or you don't want to come off aggressive And so you internally you're wrestling with that, but you know, you need to be honest and truthful And so it's like they all have a conversation.

Sometimes I'm like, you know what that wasn't fully honest Like I I didn't say what I was I felt I was trying to appease that person or I was trying to Be too friendly and it's just like gosh dang it and it's and those are the ones that never go Well, if it doesn't go well, and so I would always evaluate afterwards and it's just like that's my fault It's my fault because I wasn't truthful. I wasn't honest. I wasn't direct. And yeah, and like I said, I've had a lot of people Afterwards will will say things like yeah, I won't I think thank you for being honest Yeah, I think that the big part of it because on its face I think someone would think that a good negotiator is just somebody that gets the best deal and I don't think that's necessarily it That's part of it.

I think the other part of it is That you can't get the best deal unless you'd like integrity But if you have integrity, which I think you need to be good in business for a long period of time, right? Lack of integrity might get you only so far, but then it's not gonna get you so super far But I think it's because you know What we're worth but you're also know what's gonna they're gonna get and what's gonna value them and so you're not gonna go like again, I've heard you say to I've heard you talk with us and say I'm actually not gonna charge that much because we can't deliver.

Yeah So it's like you're just trying to get the best deal. Yeah, but that's what makes you confident Yeah, you go in. Yeah, and I think in in making a deal so uncomfortable. It is Yeah, I mean it can be uncomfortable even for me too because there's like I don't yeah, I don't Adrenaline to it for sure, but a really good negotiated deal both parties walk away and And like maybe in the moment They don't feel happy because maybe the opposing person who's on the other side of it front with me is trying to yeah You know weasel or get a deal But if if I did my job really well Then they should be happy like they like they'll get what they deserve and and I will get what we deserve and it's fair And that's a good.

That's a really good deal. And and I and I pride ourselves or myself on Going into a situation like that and and keeping a I want to I want a lifelong partner that we make it which is why if you've been listening to show for a very long time most of our partners have been with us for a very long time because I Try and find what I think is very very fair But you know I think what you guys get to see and where it can be uncomfortable is when you know the other side is trying to weasel Or do that and you're just like yeah there.

This is not gonna go well for that Because you're not gonna get most of it. Yeah. Yeah, yeah waiting and listening to their Well, there's a lot of bluffing that happens that's what's uncomfortable is you hear the bluffing from the other side, but you're not sure yeah It's you're like, oh god, are we gonna like what's gonna happen? We lose this or whatever Adam don't get he's like you're going and so I'm over here like sitting that uncomfortable silence I'm over here The part that's fun is what you're calling a bluff is as fun There's there's something about when you feel confident, you know, you've done enough Research and and you've got enough Well, one thing that I learned is when I'm in the room with someone who is who knows what they're doing I will not even if I disagree.

I will never Jump in or speak out. There's a scene in the Godfather. Oh, yeah there's a scene in the Godfather that illustrates it well when I think it's in the first Godfather where Marlon Brando's character he's negotiating or talking to these to these other guys and they want to start selling drugs and they want the Corley only family jump in and they're offering all this money and You know the the lead guy Marlon Brando's character is like he's saying no and his oldest son pipes up a little bit Hey dad, but what about and he looks at his son gives him a look and so son quiets down after that He looks at his son.

He goes no Never speak out against the family in front of other people. That's what ends up getting Marlon Brando's character shot, is because the other people saw, oh, if we kill him, then the oldest son, it just illustrates that really well. Was it the right book, Doug? Yeah, you're right. Winnie. Yeah, it was a long time ago. What was the quote? Don't ever take sides with anyone. What was it? Oh, yeah. Don't ever take sides with anyone against the family. Well, this is Michael Corleone.

Yeah. Now you say that, I'm like, oh, I remember that scene. That's such a great scene. And that was, it was the right book, yeah, Doug? Yeah, correct book. Yeah. Yeah, yeah. Jack Welch. Jack Welch. Jack Welch winning, right? Arguing the lack of the honest communication and the biggest dirty little secret in business. Oh, cool. Yeah, yeah. Great. All right. I got some cool studies on Shilajit. We haven't talked about them in a while, or about the supplement Shilajit, or the gummies that Organifi has, which, by the way, Shilajit's getting popular now, although it's been used for a long time.

It's everywhere. But some Shilajit is not the real stuff that comes from. Or not palatable at all. Yes. Yeah. Oh yeah. Oh yeah. That's another one. But it's not the real stuff. They'll make it in a lab. It's not the real stuff. Real Shilajit, Prima V is one of the best sources of real Shilajit, and that's the one that Organifi uses. So they sourced it really well. But anyway, I looked up the studies on it, and it's pretty remarkable on how well it works for certain things.

It does raise testosterone pretty reliably in healthy middle-aged men. So we talked about that. Bone mineral density in post-menopausal women with osteopenia. So they actually gave it to women with osteopeniasis before osteoporosis, post-menopausal. No changes in their lifestyle, so they weren't having them lift weights or anything, and they saw an improvement in their osteopenia. Then it's good for fatigue-related strength and collagen breakdown. And then here's what I like. Skeletal muscle gene expression. So check this out. They gave obese adults 250 milligrams twice a day for eight weeks, and what they show was an up-regulation of a cluster of extracellular matrix genes that support collagen connective tissue at the gene level.

And it's like this interesting, strange compound that oozes out of the mouth. Yeah, it's like tar, right? Yeah. It's like tar out of a tree or something. No, it's not a tree. It's like old, organic material that's been pressurized and broken down over thousands of years. It's so wild. Yeah. I think I asked you this before and I was wrong. It's not an adaptogen, but it kind of acts like one. It does, and it's used in Ayurvedic medicine. So Ayurvedic medicine has used Shilajit for a long time.

So it's one of those interesting- I know. What would you, what category of, it's not an adaptogen, but it has adaptogen-like properties. It's not a mushroom, and it doesn't have, so what- You probably could label it as an adaptogen. Maybe Doug, look up on that, see if the- It helps with stress, right? Yeah, see if in Ayurvedic medicine, if they label it as an adaptogen. I'm not sure if it's a classic adaptogen. It is. It is. Oh. Yeah. No. I wasn't wrong. And it does act that way.

Yeah, very good. I listen to when you describe it, and I'm like, that sounds very- Sounds like it. Yeah. It sounds very much so like a traditional adaptogen. So it is then. Yeah. I just saw a Venn diagram that went viral on X, and they labeled it the addiction economy. Ooh. Ooh. You guys, this is really bad. It is not good. I'll pull it up right now. So when it comes to addiction, typically men have more addiction issues than women. So I don't know if you guys knew that or not.

That's like a statistic. Okay. Sure. So this is what- Women have it more than men? No, men. Oh, okay. Yeah. Okay. So it's more of an addiction issue. Oh, of course. Okay, so- I have theories on that. Do you have a guess why you would think that would be? We might be more dopamine driven? I'm not sure. I mean, I would think it's because we're- Risking. We hold more shit in. That may be it. That might be it. Wouldn't you- You know what, Doug? One of the things that women are better at than for sure than us is sharing and communicating with others, which- So maybe think more coping?

Yeah. And so it's a coping method you would think for us is that we're holding it all in, and so Medicaid with drugs, alcohol, things like that are- That's a good theory. Yeah. I mean, that would be my guess. I think, yeah, it says biological differences, social pressure, and behavioral tendencies. Yeah, there you go. I mean, that would fall under social pressures and behavioral tendencies. Well, so check this out, okay? So these are what would be classified as addictive behaviors or qualities for certain things. So check this out.

This is young men. So this is, how old are these men? Aged 18 to 29. So men 18 to 29. One out of every four men watch pornography daily. So they consider that addictive, okay? Almost one in four. So almost one in four gamble daily. I didn't know that. Gamble? I did not know gambling was that big of a deal for young men. Of course. I'm sure that went up too. Oh, in young men, it's crazy. It's like a high school problem. This is like a problem that my buddy who was a principal, they have problems with all the kids that are doing it now.

Wow. They're supposed to be like 18 and older to be able to do it, but they're obviously there's no goal. How are they regulating it though? Yeah. So majority of young men play video games daily. They consider that addictive kind of. So trip off this. This is where it gets crazy. So the Venn diagram shows what percentage of men do all three daily? One in eight. One out of eight men between 15 to 29 watch porn, gamble, and game every day. So all of them? All of them.

They watch porn on a daily basis. Porn, gambling. Bro, that's more than 10%. Wow. That's crazy. They do. Destructive. Well, what's crazy is all of it. Yes. Like just one of it is already. One of them is destructive. Right. You're doing all three of them. That's very, and I bet you, if you looked at those young men, because if you're doing all three of those daily, you're probably not socializing at all. Yeah, you're super isolated. You probably have no sense of purpose because like how much time do you have to have a sense of purpose when you're playing video games, gambling, or.

You don't talk to girls, obviously. That's what I'm saying. Yeah. And anxiety is probably a high rate, I would guess, of depression. Yeah. And anxiety. What do you think, Justin? Do you think it's part of the conspiracy theory that I sent over to you in the social media one? I mean, sure. Is there a new one? Well, we brought this up, I think, a long time ago, that DARPA, so was it LifeLog is what it used to be called? Yes. There's a data program for collecting data from individuals.

The CIA. And so then it's weird, and they fact-checked it on there. We could fact-check it as well. I mean, Doug, should look it up, LifeLog, CIA program, how long did it run and when did it shut down? Yeah. Because it was literally the day after they shut it down, Facebook started becoming ... Oh, let me guess, because we're giving them more information for free. So we need a corporate ... So it can't be attached to the government now. Oh. So it's something in the private sector, and they also were alluding to the fact that maybe even Amazon was another one.

Oh. I don't know. Yeah, so the theory- This way they collect all the information they want. Yeah, so the idea was get document, or basically get people to share all of their personal- For free. For free. For free, yeah. Without a ... Yeah. That way it's not government-spanked. February 4th, 2004 is when Facebook launched. When did LifeLog- February 4th, 2004. What? They're not even hiding it. I mean- What? I mean, that's way too ... I mean, the fact that they didn't even wait 24 hours, I mean, that's like literally somebody ...

It was like a click of a button on the computer, dog. It was like, let's end this one, we're opening this one. Wait, so look up just LifeLog. What is LifeLog? So was it them collecting information? Yes. And what were they collecting? All the data that we would give on- Yeah. Yeah. Just probably scan the internet and looking for, yeah, problematic people. It was a 2003 research project by the U.S. military designed to track and archive a person's entire daily existence into a massive digital data ...

Of course, you don't need that anymore because everybody does it themselves. We give it to you. Yeah. We give it to you. Willingly. And Facebook also owns Instagram, so they've got Instagram, Facebook- And WhatsApp. And WhatsApp, that we were putting all this. Wow. I mean, jeez, so there we go. And then if Google, because the part of it here was Google and Amazon were also attached to all this too. And it's like, if you've got all of our search history, you've got all of our documents, pictures- What we like.

What we don't like. Tracking where we go every single day, the store ... We're all feeding into this super computer every day. Oh, man. Yeah. Yeah. God, do you guys remember the movie Ex Machina? Yeah. And remember that robot and how she basically told him she studied all of his searches, all the things, so she could turn into the perfect person to manipulate him. Right. And he'd fit all his categories of his interests, and yeah, he'd fall in love with her. Oh, God. That's crazy. Isn't that wild?

That's crazy. That's got to be a crazy coincidence. I mean, what's so crazy about that is I feel like it would be so brilliant of them to just wait 15 days to throw people ... Yeah. Don't lose that data, bro. You've got to get all that data. You know? No, but I mean to at least show that it was ... I mean, that's just purely like, we don't give a F. We're just going to ... What are you going to do about it? We're turning this one off.

We're turning this one right on. You know? That's crazy. I mean, it's all kind of scary when you look at how ... Because when you're addicted to drugs and alcohol, it's pretty obvious, and everybody knows it's bad. I don't think there's anybody ... I don't think anybody would be like, oh, that's okay. But porn, gambling, video games every single day, that's destructive. It is. It's destructive on you. I mean, there's young men right now, more than 10% of men in that age group are doing all three of them every single day, so they're stuck in their room.

Do you think ... I mean, I like this idea of MySpace coming back and not having algorithms to dictate what you look at and scroll through and all that. I'm not sure if people are going to buy into that, but some kind of a social network that doesn't add in all this adding bits of ... I'm super curious on how it's going to pan out. I'm following it, too. People might not like it. They might not like it because it's not ... That's exactly what my theory is.

I don't think ... They say they want it, but then they get it, and they're like, this sucks. Yeah. It's like a brick phone. You're like, ah. I mean, there's a part, right? I think you even have to ... We all have to admit that you're getting fed stuff that you're interested in. Yeah. You know? So, I mean, I have now purchased a lot of things ... Yeah. That have been popped in my feed because it's something that I would like or want, and it's because they've figured out ...

I buy all things I've liked and tracked and been to, and so, sure, there's a part of me that goes like, oh, I'm totally being manipulated, but there's this other part of me that's like, oh, I'm glad I found that thing. Yeah. You know what I'm saying? Or that ... We just found this. And it can be innocent, too, right? It's not just like ... I bought a lot of stuff for my wife that is just like, oh, wow, that's a cool outfit. I would have never found that or saw that, or I never heard of that brand, or like ...

You know? And so, because it's getting ... So, it's like, you know, if you shut the algorithm down and it's just purely like, you know, OG Facebook or OG MySpace where I'm connecting to my family and friends, it's like, you probably ... It's interesting. You know, it used to be really hard to find new music as well, because there's no real like one ... I heard somebody talking about this the other day. I think it was ... What's his name? One of the Beatles, the main singer from the Beatles.

Paul? John Lennon. John Lennon. Yeah. His son was talking about this. I know. I can't believe I forgot his name. But yeah, he was talking about when MTV ... He used to hate it, because it was like, you know, all this pre-prescribed pop music. But he's like, there's no ... If you can pinpoint one specific place where it's like, well, there's a culture here. You know? There's something that you follow it, because then you see ... You get introduced to a lot of things. And people ...

And you see ... Reflect at school, at work, and he's like, there's just a multitude of cultures now. It's like, it's so ... To be able to just stumble across something that's pretty rare that you're going to like. But now when I've seen bands, it's actually interesting, because you'll see some bands that they'll just put out one track, and they try to emphasize the fact that they're introducing you to this sound. Like, I just came up with this riff, and then they're playing this riff, and you find out this band's been around for like 20 years.

But it's like, they're trying to throw chum out there, so people will just ... It'll come up on their Facebook algorithm, and they're like, oh, that's interesting. I've been introduced to about 10 or 12 new bands that way. Oh, cool. Yeah. Yeah, it's cool. It's so hard to unify us. And I'm sure there's lots of cases that you can argue why it's so beneficial that we have all this diversity and different things. I was watching something that was highlighting ... It's a book that I'm reading right now, the Bob Iger book, Walt Disney Guy, and talking about how there was a time just 30, 40 years ago where we were all watching the same channel at the same time.

A show came on at 7 PM that was the most popular show in the country. Everybody was watching it. And we're all talking about the same thing. Yeah, exactly. The next day at school or work, we were all talking about that because the only way you saw it was you had to catch it, which caused all of us to unify at the same time. And so, man, it's so much easier to keep everybody on the same page. Now everything's so fragmented. Well, think about how different ...

My wife is actually a pretty good stickler about this usually, but my kids will want to watch something, and they'll disagree because kids are kids. I want to watch this. I want to watch that. And my solution is to be like, okay, we're going to give you 20 minutes of TV, you get to watch the TV, and then you watch an iPad. And she goes, no, you're going to pick something and have to watch it together. It's very different experience to sit in the same room and watch together versus all of us doing our own thing.

It's a very different ... It's so much less social. It was such an unlock for me to ... Because it's now been ... Where are we at? You could probably go back on the podcast when I first announced that we completely removed the iPad from Macs. We're coming up on a couple years now. And yeah, but he gets to watch TV. We totally let ... But we watch as a family. That's right. Yeah, it's on, and it is so different. In fact, being a seven-year-old, he rarely sits through anything all the way through.

He normally is ... Watching and then he's playing with his Legos or he's wrestling with me on the couch, or it's just like it is way different It is nothing like When we allowed an iPad and he could watch a cartoon on there because he was locked I mean it was it all Consuming and that was the the big switch for me when I when I realized that when He could be in the on the couch next to me and I was allowing him to watch a cartoon And then I would try and engage him and he like he almost like couldn't hear me until I put my face in front of It was like hey, and then it was so it was you could tell was innocent Was it like he was being rude like he was just locked in.

I'm like, wow That's like this is got we got this guy to go now you can put but putting it up there huge difference You know as we were talking earlier about this addiction economy with young man, which was really alarming Like I said that Venn diagram went viral I'm like what what would be the solution like just clear-cut solution because you could say turn those things off Don't do it, whatever But people don't operate that way Usually it's like do this rather than just don't do that right and young men in general You know therapy Can be valuable but therapies works better with women typically than men And it's just we're wired not only that.

I don't think that's the solve this No, but my point with that is I just therapizing or talking about things Doesn't work as not that it's bad or that doesn't work Men the data shows us they tend to be better with like goal Like yeah, I do this instead of like let's talk about this and talk about occasion Here's how you gonna think and I'm thinking about like what could young men do and I'll tell you I'll give you the I'll Give you the prescription if you're listening you're a young guy and you feel lonely and you're stuck in this pattern Try this lift weights go to church and volunteer if you do those three things right there and you do them consistently even if you don't believe in them, even if you think it's crazy if you just did those three lifting weights going to church and Volunteering a little bit that would change so much for you I'll tell you so much I'll tell you something else that I so I shared this on my story actually just last night or the night before so one of the things I've been trying to practice with so I've been I'd be doing the sauna every single night and Many times I'm by myself.

Sometimes Katrina's in there with me, but most times I'm by myself and since I'm in a sauna No tech I'm in there for 20 plus minutes. Anyways, I'm like, you know what? I want to try and be consistent with gratitude practices And the reason why that was sparked was I found myself, you know shopping looking for things that I don't need and And desiring more stuff. That's good self-awareness. So you're like I need to be more grateful. Yes, exactly And and so I'm like, what am I?

What am I doing? you know I'm saying like like I have I have when I when I really do an Evaluation of my life. I have the life. I have a better life than I dreamt of as a kid What do I need more why I don't so so anyway so I'm practice and then then what I wanted to do while I was doing this and I shared this in my story the notes of Like I didn't want to be so generic of I'm grateful for my wife.

I'm grateful for my like I got what I wanted to look into was things either people or things That I would have say when I was 16 years old been like man be so amazing So I'll give you so funny, right? You've noticed have you noticed me using the same like crazy? Yeah, this came from that Oh cuz you're like man if I had that when I was 16 I lost my mom. Well, if you if 16 year old me said I had the baddest simulate race car simulator at his work You like he would and I'd oh, he would just be so disappointed so I'm sitting in there and so what I try and do is Read and so what I shared is like what it what it ends up sparking is like this thing that I that's sitting on a Shelf somewhere collecting dust or maybe a thing that I haven't taken care of and appreciated because I've got two or three of it now or what and and so I think what we've what's happened to this and bringing this full circle to what you're talking about is That a lot of men we have we're such a consumer.

We have so much access We have so much stuff that we've lost appreciation For a lot of great things in our life. Yeah, and we've defaulted to these addictive Mind-numbing things when you may not even have to go out and go that active So it's like maybe just revisit some of the things that you thought of years ago You really wanted to do or have and you already have it and maybe go show some appreciation towards it And so I that this is just me sharing personally what I that's great You noticed like yeah, and another thing to share like, you know, I was car shopping right as if I need that and and actually what it sparked up is like, you know, I've like I Love them being I actually enjoy the process of cleaning them and detail them It's like man I had two or three of them that weren't even detailed and clean and it's like, you know What like I'm gonna spend the day doing that and just so yeah There's like it's unlocked some things for me that and of course while I'm doing all those things.

I'm not yeah, I had such a great moment with with Jessica recently because there's definitely times when she's so like a kid so grateful and joyful over things that I'm like Like we were we went car shopping for her and there were two options of SUVs and one was the nicer More expensive one. Okay, and it was the one I thought for sure She would want so I was kind of pushing her in that direction and we were talking and she goes no Actually, I want this other one.

I'm like, I thought she wanted it because it was the cheaper one She's like no, that's the one I like. It's like, oh, okay So I get it and you should see her with this car. It's like it's the most extravagant whatever car But she's like I want to do a Photoshop I Want to go park it somewhere She's so like Grateful and just which is Katrina's like that I tell you what as a husband, you know If you provide for your wife and then you do something and then you see that that it just makes me You know that I work twice as hard.

So obviously You know, you know, you thought we talked about my stuff like so for a lot of my early years I attracted a lot of other girls that like liked a lot of the material stuff. Sure. I did I Just to echo what you're saying I love that trade about Katrina and I actually such a great thing and I would have if you would have asked me when I was Younger I would have thought that I would have married or been with someone that was more like me what I have found through dating and everything and where I'm at now in my life is like it actually makes the Buying things for her and do something way more enjoyable for me because she appreciates such little things She doesn't need the most expensive thing or she didn't care about name-brand It's like she likes what she likes and she's so appreciative of it So it also is way more fulfilling and I get way more joy totally for for doing it So I could totally relate so like how awesome that is to have Yeah, she's like a little kid Well, it's interesting you talking about like kind of getting back to like hands-on and you know like looking at those types of things and what I used to enjoy a lot was like building things with my dad and like Even when we first started a podcast I was like at my first house and we were like building ramps together and the kids were really little Like just that entire process was like so fun for me So like it's cool good school kind of like introduces that again And so like Everett has this like little project and he's like he always he just comes up with ideas I get really excited about you know, it's like I'm like, oh man, but I'm like I don't want to like step in and like do the whole thing for him, you know Cuz I'm just like oh, it's so cool.

It's fun. So him and his buddies like came up with this idea like they have He has a couple classes where they allow these like skateboard little finger skateboards. Yeah Yeah, it's like, you know back in the day They'd had like the fidget spinners like some some teachers were cool about you know, you having because it's like dude I mean, it's so boring. Yeah, you're sitting there. So He has a couple of teachers that are cool about that. So he thought is his idea he's supposed to come up with a project to pitch and kind of sell to his Classmates is like, you know, maybe this is something that they would actually buy and so he's he's creating like this little skate park You know like a finger boards.

Yeah, and so So, you know, I was kind of with him plan. He did most of planning He's done all that stuff and anyway we were starting to kind of you know put stuff together and like, you know poor Courtney's like, you know, she's Completely the opposite brain of that it has to be all already completely You know, there has to be a blueprint for there has to be like instructions like it, you know Like it we always say it's kind of funny, but it's like she's real follower.

I'm not you know It's like we're completely opposite an entrepreneur. Yeah, so yeah, and I love projects and so Anyways, so she had to take him because I was still coming home from work To go and went to this like craft shop, you know, and I was like, I want to take him home Depot But you know, it's all good And came up back with like materials and I'm like this isn't gonna work. This is gonna fall apart and like it's not even good So anyway, we start kind of going through it and I'm like, you know what?

My dad is like an amazing like wood craftsman Like he literally was gonna be a woodshop teacher back in the day He makes like cabinetry all this kind of stuff and I'm like, I want him to learn like that skill Like, you know because he's already shown interest in projects. So I brought him over there. It was great. Just I took pictures I'm like watching from afar him teaching him like every little part of the process how to like Plan it out how to measure properly how to like use the table saw to do this that We walked out of there and he's got this like little ramp they made and it's so sick, dude And so anyway, like I go online.

I'm like geeking out on this and they have like little Railings like our coach and see that, you know, so I'm like gonna go back and like little tiny like bolts and drills I'm gonna be doing all that for him. But Yeah, it's just it looks cool. Is it a project that you your dad and your son? I mean my dad and my son Wow That's so great. Cool. Like three generations. Yeah Did you see the clip speaking of like woodworking and like that type of job?

Did you see the clip I send you guys about electricians? No. Oh, did you get to pull it up? It's I sent it to the mind pump the the three of the four of us that Yeah, I know we know text. Thank you It's a it was an interview Sean Ryan did with I don't know who it was I thought it was a guy from dirty jobs at first, but I think it's somebody else Oh micro I thought it was him, but I think it's somebody else He was breaking down like how behind we are on electricians Oh He was giving examples of like a couple of electricians that he was just with like that prior week that are all like young like early 20s making like 250 a year and they had they have been poached three times in the last year Other they just give me a great career to get into right now.

Oh god. Yeah, supposedly we're like like 100,000 something like Doug could pull it up the post he talks about it is right there You know, the trades are in such high demand, that's not micro right it look like He's he's a big advocate for the trades and yeah, you know how school just like it's so weird that like we were so pushed into these and they were wrong institutions and now yeah Completely I have friends that were I don't have friends that work in the space.

So there's there's two replacements for every five retirements And so oh, so it's just we need 400,000 more electric Wow and and it's growing by the minute because for every five that retire the data centers and stuff That's what that's what he's talking. It's huge He's like the data centers are the the demand for it is so high That we were under by 400,000 and for every five retired electricians. We have to replacing it And so he's a guy with the AI explosion. This is gonna be a very high-paying job with the low supply That's the point he's making is like it's they're already you got young Early electricians and they're 20 is making 250 a year getting poached three times in a year What is the kind of education it requires to become an electrician?

So you're at a high school You want to be an electrician? Do you just go? Well, you have to go through a course That's I think it's at least 18 months or that's what I'm wondering What does that look like to be an electrician? So you want to start working as one that's not a pocket I'm assuming there's a Apprenticeship or something. Yeah, you print the ship and then you work your way up to tradesmen. Yeah journeymen Yeah, so it's like you're probably let's see. Oh, what does that say there Doug?

High school diploma cool. So four to five year paid apprenticeship paid. Yeah versus going to college and paying right? Yeah, exactly Wow, so you get paid the whole time and then you come out and you make a crap ton of money I also thought there was like a like a Trade school, is that right? Is there like a two-year six months to two years? Would you need that or would you with the apprenticeship cover it I just ship usually I think you get I get I think you Get there faster.

I think again speaking out of turn here I think that if you go through the the trade school you get through that journeymen process faster I think so, but they say a non-union contractor apprenticeship is the standard most valued group Most value. Yeah, so it's a roughly 2,000 hours of paid on the John job training. Yeah, what is it? 2,000 hours would be that's per year. Yeah, I mean, that's probably 40 hours weeks for a year. Yeah 52 weeks 40 hours. That's around as far as blue collar is concerned Because that's considered blue collar.

Is it like a really hard rough job or is it is it physically demanding for sure? It's very physically. I've never worked with electricians. My dad did everything but that. Oh, yeah I would say plumbing is probably yeah more dirty. Yeah. Yeah, just because yeah the kind of tight places and underneath the house Yeah But yeah, I mean, I don't it's definitely physically demanding for sure. Okay. Well, you know, hey, here's the deal like fellas, I Know because back in the but you know what they used to do They used to tell Pete guys.

This was our generation. You don't want to go work that kind of hard Where you want to sit at a desk? Actually, no, you don't know that sucks. I think you're better off moving like go out and move dude you're active all day long instead of like well and I mean sure part of that was also because as a Engineer you can make a lot more money. Sure as a computer engineer You can make a ton more money But where we're heading is electricians are gonna be up there in pay Especially when you compare it to computer engineers because AI is gonna go take their job writing code.

So how true okay? And this is conspiracy. So just brace yourself. Okay Yeah, so no I AI the data centers like so how true is it how much water they actually need because I've heard there's like to cool them There's I heard there's a bit of a conspiracy with that. Like they don't need that much water. Really? Yeah, I don't know I just I thought that was the reason why why Elon's trying to put them in space. Well, putting them in space covers two things. Power, because they direct solar 24-7, and then second is cooling, because it doesn't need to take away power for cooling.

He was talking about, he was just on an interview, and he said, we are running headfirst into a power problem. Based on what Doug just read, 300,000 to five million gallons of water per day. That's what it needs. For a large data center. For sure. That's insane. Yeah, so mid-side uses about as much as 1,000 households. Oh, wow. Yeah. Yeah, he was cool if we could use that, because once you use the water to cool that, I'm assuming the water becomes warm, right, from that, it gets you transferred, to warm all the pools in the United States.

That's a brilliant idea, Adam. Yeah, he was talking about how the problem we're going to run into is power. It's not processing, it's not, it's power. We're going to run into a power problem, we're not going to have enough power, which is why SpaceX probably is going to do so well. So hopefully my shares. Right now, they're up and down. Betting on it, I guess. But I'm betting on that for the next five years. I mean, I'm not betting against you. I'm going to join you, but I'm just joining you in December.

That's my decision. Yeah, I mean, based off of what I saw, listen, the behaviors around people, I think sometimes are almost more important than picking the stock, right? Sure, pick the leader. Yeah, exactly, right. And so I think that December is when the largest percentage of people who have shares in SpaceX will have the ability to cash out. And because they're going to make so much money. But most of the shares are owned by him. They are. And he ain't selling out. No, no, sure, sure.

But there's enough that it's going to dip. Yeah, it should. It's going to dip. And so the question becomes, does it climb enough right in between now and December that the dip is still higher than the way it opened? Or I think it's going to bounce up and down all the way until December, then we'll see a little dip, and then we'll see a run. No jump. Yeah, no, I could be totally wrong. Don't take my stock advice. I've been wrong more often than not. So I'm warning you.

Don't take our advice on anything other than fitness. We're just having fun. Just a couple idiots talking on a podcast. You know what I'm saying? I got some cool data from Caldera Lab on their eye serum. I know, Doug, you use the eye serum. I do, on a daily basis, yes. On a daily basis. And so this one is good for, okay, so check out what they did. They did a four-week clinical study on the eye serum. 78% less visible dark circles. I did not know the eye serum was good for dark circles.

Oh, it brings the inflammation down right away. 75% less puffiness. 87% of the under eyes appeared smoother. You don't have to do the Criss Angel eye makeup anymore, dude. You know, it's got peptides in there, stem cell extracts, and it won best eye serum in the manual grooming awards. You know, I got to use this one more. Yeah, I got to use this one more. I don't use it enough. So I don't- Do you put it on at night, Doug, or when you wake up? Morning and night, personally.

So I have a tendency towards really puffy eyes. Yeah. And so I'm doing whatever I can to minimize that. He does everything. He does all the face stuff. I do it all, yeah. When you get old, I think this is when you get older, your eyes get a little puffy. That's what's going on. So I keep, I have the whole, I have all their stuff. It's right on my sink. But I talk about the three that I use most consistently. The eye serum is not one I use consistently, but it is one I will use when I have a poor night's sleep and I have that eye puffiness.

Because I've seen, I can see visible difference immediately. Oh, cool. So I keep it there. And it's just like, if I look, if I'm brushing my teeth in the morning, I'm like, oh yeah, I look like shit. Then I'll do it. And I notice it. So, yeah, no, it works. You mentioned the eye, like what, eyeliner or whatever? Yeah. There's one time I did that because I dressed up as a vampire. Yeah. And I did the eyeliner or whatever. I bet Jessica would look crazy. And I thought it looked cool.

Yes, she liked it. Of course she did. I looked like Adam. Adam looks like an eyeliner. Okay, if anybody, I can't even talk shit because like, you know, anybody who's ever even been in a band before has probably done that. Yeah, you're rock genre, bro. I was guilty of that for sure. Hold on, did you, did you ever put mascara on? I don't remember if I, I probably did. Oh, he did, dog. He did. But probably. Shut up, dude. He tells me he did. Maybe, hey, you know clearly as a man, you put mascara on before in your life.

I don't remember doing it, but I'm sure I did. I can't remember putting mascara on. Maybe I did. Maybe. Yeah. Maybe. No, I know for sure because my cousin used to live with us. She was like four years older than me. She, she caught me a couple of times so I could put makeup on me, didn't I? And I was like, she put it on me. I was a victim. Yeah, yeah. I saw some old Halloween pictures. I forgot to tell you guys about this. My mom sends it to the group and it was a picture of me and my siblings for Halloween.

So this was probably 1989, probably. Maybe 1990. So it's a long time ago. Okay. I was dressed as a woman. My sister was dressed as a man and my brother was dressed as a woman. This was a Halloween costume back then. That was a popular thing. It was a popular, like, what are you going to dress up? I'm going to be a girl. Yeah. Don't do that now. You can not. One of my best friends is a girl. Like she dressed up as like a hobo.

Like with a beard and everything. Oh yeah, I remember that. Oh, that was super common. That was super common when we were younger. You can't dress up like a hobo. What do you guys think? Like a homeless person. A man. That's so insensitive. Hey bro, that was so common. That was hella common. That was a 90s costume. That was a 90s costume all the time. Super common. Yeah, super common. Now everybody dresses slutty. You know, it's like a huge difference. Wait, hold on. Can you even say hobo?

You can't. Hobo is insensitive. You can say it, but I don't know. I've been saying bum a lot. It's like an old word now. Nobody uses it. What is it? What's the point? It is not, you can't even say homeless. It's a... Unhoused. Why do we keep changing words, dude? Hey, what would you guys, since you brought up Halloween costumes, what do you think was your best Halloween costume you ever did? Oh God. Oh God. Oh, you know what? Mine was as an adult. I was 18, I was a personal trainer.

So I just became a personal trainer. And me and my buddy dressed up as Hans and Franz. Remember Hans and Franz? Yeah. Oh, that's a good one. Yeah, and everybody loved it. That's why I was one of my best, but. Sure. And then I had a costume when I was a kid. My mom used to make my costumes when I was little because we didn't have the money to buy them. Same. So back in those days, in the 80s, if you bought a costume, it was plastic.

They didn't have nice, now you have nice costumes for kids. Yeah, yeah, yeah. But when you were a kid, you went to the grocery store and it was literally a plastic apron that you would wear and a plastic mask that would just, you would sweat. With just a rubber band holding it on. A rubber band. So my mom made me a costume. She made me a robot and she took boxes and covered them in foil and put them on me. Yeah, sick. So that's what I remember.

What was yours? Yeah, so before Stranger Things, like, you know, like I was a Ghostbuster with my friend and same thing, my mom made the whole costume. So I had like a vacuum hose that went down to like connect to this like huge shoe box with like a flashlight as my like. Oh, that's cool. But I mean, that wasn't my favorite. That was like cool for that time. But like, it's funny, because my personal favorite one was, you know, Johnny from Karate Kid. But then they got their own series and everybody's like, oh, yeah.

You know, but when I first did it, it was like everybody loved, you know, Daniel. Daniel. Nobody was Johnny. Nobody was team Johnny. Was My House the first house you wore that to or did you wear that before? I wore it before. Oh, you wore it before. Yeah, one time before that. Damn, you recycled that a few times then. I have. Probably about four or five times. I was gonna say, I thought My House Party was the first time you ever wore it. Yeah, I don't know why, because it's my favorite.

Because I remember I came in and I was like, oh, that's awesome. Yeah. That was awesome back then, because that was a long time ago. That was 20 years ago. That's a good picture for you, right? You know. I saw that picture. That was a great one. I've had some good ones, bro. I did Slash. I was pretty good. Oh, yeah, Slash. This is an adult. Oh, yeah. I wasn't like my kid. When you were a kid, what were you? Okay. I mean, I can't even remember a lot of my kid costumes.

They weren't very good. Yeah. I got into Halloween later, so my kid costumes, I can't even. The furthest one back I remember was I was a devil. My mom dressed me up as one time. But I don't, yeah, I don't remember. Do you remember how dangerous, like, well, considered today, by today's standards, we did risky things as kids. When I was a kid, we would get a pillow sack. That's what we used to put our candy in. And we'd be gone forever. Oh, yeah. Forever, walking all over the place, all like miles.

And we'd come home when we were done with a pillow sack full of candy, and there were no limits. My mom wasn't like, eat five, and then save the rest. We'd go in our room and just eat until we got diabetes. I think Doug's Uncle Billy was one of the best. Baby Billy. Uncle Baby Billy. Baby Billy. Yeah, Baby Billy. When you were a kid, what was Halloween like, Doug? Well, yeah, so very similar. If you've got the plastic costume, if you wanna be Batman or whatever.

But I mostly made up my own costumes, like pirates and other things like that. But one of my favorite ones after that, as I got a little older, was Indiana Jones. Oh. Yeah, I had the whole thing. I had the hat. Better than Baby Billy? I mean, I had everything. I had a bullwhip. I had the whole nine yards. I thought Baby Billy was. But Baby Billy was unique. Very unique. Well, it was unique. And also, I think what makes a great costume is when you look the part.

One of the best is when you're like, oh my God, that's a character. And it's a unique character, right? So it's not like Batman, Superman. That's kind of generic. But it's like. You were like his stunt double. Exactly. A character, you're like, oh my God, that is so. Some of the best costumes are when couples dress together. Yeah, they're fun. And it goes together. I did peanut butter and jelly with a girlfriend one time. Did you? Yeah, yeah. You know what I saw? I've seen now since.

It was a jelly first. But you know what I saw a long time ago, which now I've seen done before. But a long time ago, it was probably, I want to say in the late 90s. A boyfriend and girlfriend dressed up as a plug in an outlet. Yeah, I've seen that. Yeah, and they plug in and turn on. I've seen that. Which was like brilliant. I've seen guys. I've seen all kinds of, yeah. I've seen all kinds of. Yeah, those are good like that. But yeah, I think Doug's was one of my favorites whenever you see somebody like, yeah.

See, now you see it more common. She has two plugs. Thanks, Justin. We'll just stop there. Element is the best electrolyte powder you'll find anywhere. First off, no sugar and no artificial sweeteners. So it's sweetened naturally. And again, no calories. It also has a thousand milligrams of sodium per serving. Why so much sodium? Here's why. If you need electrolytes, if you're somebody that needs electrolytes, let's say you work out a lot or you eat a diet that is whole food based or especially if you eat a low carb diet or especially if you like to fast, it's the sodium that makes the biggest difference.

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Go to drinkelemente.com slash Mind Pump. Here comes the show. Our first caller is Jason from California. What's up Jason? What's happening man? Hey guys, crazy to be here. My name is Jason as we just said. I am 37 years old. I am a firefighter paramedic here in Southern California. And the reason for my call is I've had some major life changes recently. But before that, I've been a fitness fanatic for a long time. I love strength training. I love weightlifting. My numbers before my accident were like I was able to squat 385, deadlift 315, bench 285.

So they weren't crazy, but they were good. I was proud of it. But since then, about two and a half months ago, I was in a major car accident. Totaled my car. I have a broken left clavicle, a right 10th rib, a broken C7, T678, a torn PCL and MCL in my left knee. So with all that, I've obviously been able to not work out as I want to. And I'm looking for advice on what I can do, what I shouldn't do. I am pre-surgery. I am scheduled to have surgery probably in the next month or so.

So I'm doing a prehab with PT, but that's focused solely on my leg. So I wanna know, should I be doing anything upper body? Can I be doing anything upper body? And what shouldn't I do? Were you hit by a semi? Yeah, it was a bad accident. I ran through a wall. Holy shit. Really? Hey man, thank God you're still here, brother. And so, all right, tell me about, so the surgery's for the knee. Yes, PCL reconstruction, I believe we're gonna do. I have a follow-up appointment with my surgeon next week.

We're gonna discuss that, but that's what it should be. And then I'm gonna be non-weight bearing for four to six weeks. And then I won't be able to return to work for nine to 12 months after that. I'm off work now, but I'm gonna be off for a very long time. Got it. And are you, just a side note, you're working with someone who's gonna do more of an athletic procedure, because there are ways to repair a knee that is like average person, and then like athletes.

Have you had that discussion? Is that? Yeah, he's the former orthosurgeon for the Lakers. Oh, you're good. Oh, nice. And then with the C7, T6, T7, did anything have to get done there? Are they healed? What does that look like? No, there's gonna be no surgery with that. The only surgery that I'm going to have is for the knee. The clavicle is healing itself. The spine is healing itself. They were kind of like micro fractures, but like still when I like lay down and try to do leg lifts, I can feel it on my like mid spine basically.

So it's still healing. So I'm trying to be very cautious. I don't wanna hinder my progress, but I want to promote my progress essentially. And I love working out. I love strength training. And it's been like, I go through like depression stuff with everything, but like particularly being off work and not being able to work out, which was a huge mental like relief for me. Yeah, no, dude. This is a tough one to answer because of all of the injuries and because it's only two months out.

Yeah, you're so close to surgery. But you do have a history of strength training and you kind of know what your body should feel like, what good pain feels like, what bad pain kind of feels like. So without me actually training you, because if we were in person and I trained you, I would watch you move and then that would help me dictate. Yeah, limitations. That would help me dictate what to do with you each time. So the best advice I can give you, Jason, is you gotta go real easy.

You focus on the basics and you're not going in for a workout. You're going in for stability and range of motion. Stimulus. So an example of that would be like, I'm doing a row and oh boy, like I got to stop. here because I feel like if I go a little further, it feels unstable. So now what you're going to do is you're going to play with that range of motion. That's the way that you're going to get stronger. Not adding weight to the bar or to the cable.

Can I ask you this since you mentioned Rose? Is the 10th rib attached to the lat? Ooh, that's a good question. We need to look that up. Because that is still healing. Like when I take a deep breath, I still feel it even two and a half months out. Okay, that could be intercostal that you might be feeling, but I'm not sure if it's attached to the lat. We'll look that up and see if that's the case. Nonetheless, what I would do if I were you, is I would try an exercise and I'd see how it felt.

And like I said, because you have extensive history of strength training, you know what it feels like when there's good pain. You also know when something feels wrong. And so what you're going to do is you're going to play within that. Gradually push that threshold. That's right. Honestly, isometrically holding positions is probably your safest, most effective bet in terms of preserving muscle and still being able to get that stimulus. Let's use that example. So the 10th rib does connect there, right? So it is connected. It's the 9th through 12th ribs.

So you're right there. So let's say, obviously that would be high risk to do some barbell rows. But can you take your arms and create that row with your arms and then create an isometric in that position? Like this is a great... So my rule of thumb with you if I was training would be always default to isometric and tempo as the way to progress intensity, not more weight, more reps. So it's like, hey, I know that that's a high risk area, so I don't want to go barbell row, but can I do this with my arms?

Okay, I could do that. Intensely squeeze. Can I flex and squeeze and make that like, yeah, that feels okay. Then you find your limit that way. That's right. It's safer. So I do a really light row and then I row. And then again, that still feels pretty good. I'm going to intensify that squeeze. I'm going to do that instead of just keep adding weight all the time, which is what we tend to do. Bands are great too to really limit a lot of the impact. So that's something like physical therapy we use at all time.

But it's really just gradually getting in position, intensifying it with tension, holding it and just feeling your way through it so you don't exceed that threshold. So here's a couple of things to consider, which I don't need to tell you, but just kind of bring them again to the surface. You're two months out from those injuries, so that's a strong consideration. You mentioned depression. Okay, that's tough. In fact, that would be the number one thing that I would focus on. I would not focus on building muscle and strength and improving performance.

I would focus on movement to make me feel better. And so it could also look like more general movement, less specific. I don't know how you feel about doing movement in a swimming pool, but it's one of the best ways to exercise when you're healing from something just because of the support and the buoyancy. Slow impact. Right. So the antidepressant effects from exercise, there's lots of reasons why it helps us feel better, but one of them is just movement. And so it's really depressing to not be able to move.

So if you can get in the pool and kind of exercise vigorously in there because it feels relatively safe, that would be a great way to help you feel better, and that could be a daily thing. Unfortunately, with that, I can't do it to my clavicle, and my knee is super unstable. Like the side to side motion, any instability, like if I'm not on a flat surface, it just like knocks and comes out of place. So unfortunately, I've tried that, but it's a no-go. And then Adam referring to what you were saying about the isometrics and that hold.

So to talk more on that, I am not doing anything left arm. And that leads me to another question I don't know if I asked, like should I be doing things with just my right arm? My workout routine right now is just like I'll do one exercise per body part every day or so when I can, and I'll just do like shoulder presses and then shrugs, and I'll move my weight down my body. I know that I'm getting unequal right now, and I know that your answer is going to be the symmetry afterwards, which I already have.

But should I be doing that, or should I kind of halt? There's a radiation effect you'll get from that, which actually will translate over to your other side. So you will be able to preserve somewhat of muscle there as well just by working that one side. Yeah, Jason, you can even look these studies up. They're really interesting where they'll immobilize one limb, and they'll have groups of people. One group does nothing. The other group exercises the free arm or free leg. Exercising the other side actually minimizes muscle loss and atrophy in the limb that's immobilized.

Like it's the stomach effect kind of thing? Correct. So I know that the logic is like, oh, I better not do anything because then I'm going to create more of an imbalance, but it actually helps to exercise, so you're doing the right thing. Physical therapy, your therapist, because they're working with you directly, is going to give you much more specific advice on what you can do. You're two months out, bro. That's a big deal. Yeah, we've got to calm down a little bit. Take it easy.

What I hear from you is, I don't know how long you've been listening to this show, but if you've been listening... Six years. Six years. Okay, so I don't know if you're... It was around that time. If you remember when I came off of testosterone, I went through a little bit of depression because I was trying to get my levels up naturally, and then right after that, I tore my Achilles, and boy, it just ripped my heart out. It was already bad enough. My testosterone levels were tanked.

Then I... Was that when you started basketball out of nowhere? Yes, yes. Out of nowhere. Yes. Totally stupid. Yes. Right? I share this story because how much it beat me up on the depression side of not... I was forced to slow down because I couldn't do that. The advice I'm going to lean into with you, because you don't seem like the type of person that I'm worried about being lazy, I'm more worried about you doing too much too soon too fast. Something that helped me during that time was actually reviving some other hobbies in my life that I hadn't done in a long time, whether that's music, listening to Lego-type stuff, what I'm reading.

Try and draw back to some things that you're passionate about, that you love, that it doesn't require a lot of your body. I know this is not the advice you're calling in for right now, but just being somebody who's been there. No, it is. It helped me through that time because if you're constantly focused on the body getting better and you're frustrated because you're not, that's where you have the tendency to push versus leaning into something else that you enjoy, that you love. It's like, oh, you know what?

I can't do the training and the time and movement I was doing before as much, so that extra time I'm going to do something else that I enjoy that I haven't done in a long time that maybe has been replaced by exercise or being busy with life. I would lean into something like that. I don't know what that is for you, but that helped me during that time of recovery and getting back to be patient and not rush it. Are you using any peptides or do you plan on using any?

I'm on the Wolverine stack. Oh, good. Nice. Good, good. Yeah. You guys are 100% right. I am all in or nothing at all. I hear that. It's been tough because I have picked up those old hobbies. Like Justin, I'm a musician. I've been picking up the guitar and doing all that stuff, but I still daily want to go work out. It's a struggle that I need to figure out on my own. I know you can't give me any advice on that, but I hear you and I appreciate the reiterated advice.

Yeah, bro. That's super tough. Injuries suck. If I can ask you a personal question about this. Of course. You're a firefighter paramedic. Was it your buddies that came to grab you in that situation? Were you in your same jurisdiction? No. It was a different department and I didn't know anybody there. It was two and a half hours away from home. Okay. Okay. It was in Lancaster, if you know where that is. I'm in Orange County. How did you go through the wall? How did that happen?

I fell asleep at the wheel. Oh, crap. Was it late at night? Or was it just long work? Yeah. I was out there to visit a friend and I worked the next day. It was around midnight. I started driving home and I was like, I'm too tired for this. I booked a hotel room, paid for it, started heading there, and on the way, I just fell asleep. No way. You even had the whereabouts to book the hotel and you didn't make it to the hotel. Damn, bro.

You must have been tired. That's tough, dude. I mean, so I'm recently separated four months ago from my fiance at the time, and so I was just working, working, working, day off, going to see friends, going to do whatever. I was just overstimulated. I did it to myself, a hundred percent. Oh, bro. You got good friends surrounding you? I do. I have a great support system. My work union has been great. My friends have been great. I'm going out to dinner with my crew tonight, so it's a great thing.

Jason, you ever up here in Northern California? No, not really, but why? You want to come up and come sit in a live episode, hang out a little bit? Yeah. If you ever got time, come up this way. We're in San Jose. I would love to. All right, dude. I got all the time in the world right now. All right, dude. I'll have my assistant reach out. Yeah, yeah. Book a time up here. Come visit. Say hi. Hang out for the day. We'll play Legos. Let's do this.

That's it. But yeah, keep leaning into that stuff, because you're not somebody ... You're going to get back, bro. You're going to heal. Muscle memory is incredible for somebody who's been working out most of their life. It'll all come back, dude. So just be patient with it. Everything I'm hearing from you, I relate to, you're more likely to hurt yourself going too fast too soon than you are to not do anything, be lazy, and become this fat guy who never works out later on. You'll be fine.

You're going to be fine. Oh, I haven't had some major body compositions. I'm sure. I get it. I'm like 10 pounds heavier and lost all the muscle. Yeah. It'll come back, though, bro. You must have had a ton of muscle. You still got some, bro. Yeah, yeah. It'll all come back. It's plenty. Yeah. All right, dude. We'll schedule you coming up here, and you can hang out in an episode. Thank you. I appreciate all your advice. You got it, brother. Thank you. That's crazy. Yeah. Well, you think, too, that you knew- What's crazy is this two months later, because those are major injuries, dude.

Yeah. Huge. And he's asking about exercise. It's like, bro, this is two months out. Well, and he's on the Wolverine stack. What do we say to everybody about this? The negative part of that stack is it's so effective, you feel, and that's why he's where he's at right now. He's like, hey, I feel good. Yeah. So- I was just wondering what it's like to be the person to save people, and then to be in that position where people are saving you. That's got to be such an interesting- Oh, no.

Well, yeah, but do you think ... I mean, he's so out. He has to be out of it. Yeah, but just to know, like you're on the other end of it, and know what that happened. He's probably more aware of how lucky he is than anything. Oh, I mean, it's super humbling, I'm sure. Yeah, yeah. Our next caller is Shannon from Washington. Hi, Shannon. How you doing, Shannon? Hi, guys. How's it going? Great. How are you? Okay. I'm going to read off my notes here a little bit on the side.

I'm so excited. My heart's just beating. Thank you. Thank you. Okay. So I'm a fairly new listener, actually. I was previously really into the health and longevity stuff, and listening to mostly that. I even became a nutritional therapy practitioner. Haven't started practice, but got certified in that. Started listening to you guys at the beginning of this year when I transferred into the trainer position at Planet Fitness. Don't laugh. I have three questions today, if that's okay. One about carbs, one about glute growth, and also what next.

But first, just a little background. I'm almost 62 years young. I'm 5'5", 118 to 120 pounds, about 18% body fat. I've stayed within five pounds of this weight for over 10 years after gaining and losing 10 to 20 pounds over and over and over again, literally lost hundreds of pounds over my lifetime. I've made the commitment to myself that I'll continue strength training and eating healthy for life. I'm pretty happy with my physique, but also look at my body as a sculpting project. So it's fun to kind of focus and fine-tune where I can, trying to keep it interesting.

I like to have the look of a figure and physique competitor. My upper body's probably there, but the lower body's not. As far as occupation, I'm working four days a week right now at Planet Fitness as a trainer. I'm also working on building my own business around nutrition and writing an e-book, and I also spend a lot of time helping my 94-year-old mother who's still living on her own. As far as nutrition, my diet's evolved a lot. It went from the low-fat, I was the fat-free queen, to paleo, to keto and intermittent fasting, and just the whole health longevity stuff.

Once I started focusing on health and longevity rather than weight loss, my body fat finally melted off. I have a rhythm to how I eat, building my meals around 30 to 50 grams of protein. I'm obsessed with protein, knowing that I need more at my age, and also since I'm lean and wanting to maintain and gain muscle. What finally worked for me was just really simplifying things. I'm mostly animal protein, non-starchy veggies, healthy fats, plus Greek yogurt, cottage cheese, protein powders, and a little fruit. I don't normally track calories or macros, but I've been tracking for the last couple weeks because I knew you guys would ask.

I'm averaging roughly, I know I shouldn't say this, 1,500 to 1,900 calories, but there are some higher days that I didn't track. If I go out or there's a family function, I go at it, but I don't try to track it. There's a few days of those in there. My protein's actually usually 170 to 200 grams. I know that's a lot, but I love my protein. My carbs are landing around 60 to 180, depending on if I have popcorn. Fat's usually around 60 to 100. Actually through tracking, I realized I'm eating more carbs than I thought I was.

They're mostly though from my little treats like my sugar-free fudge stickles at night and my popcorn that I kind of have purposely been adding just to bring up carbs a little bit. A little bit of a training background. I started lifting in the early 80s, inspired by Rachel McClish, Corey Everson, Flex Magazine. Miss Olympia, first one. Yeah, they were just beautiful. I was obsessed with that look and all that. Anyway, and then starting in 2007, I started working out with home fitness programs. You guys probably know the ones.

I did those for 18 years and was a coach with that company. And then, let's see. And then at 50, I actually did a figure and physique competition just to kind of ring in the 50th birthday and did well in that and that was all just training at home. Dumbbells and a bench, what else? For the last year, I've been working four days a week at Planet Fitness and do all my lifting during my breaks. So I have a 10 minute break, a 30 minute break and another 10 minute break.

So I've just been fitting my workouts in during that. And then I've been doing an upper lower split with the shoulder and glute focus. So using mostly dumbbells and cables. When I saw that you guys had just released something similar, I'm like, oh, that really piqued my interest. So I've been curious about that. I'm also been working on pull-ups just because it's a fun goal. For my 61st birthday, I was able to do 12 but then I slacked off a little bit due to elbow pain.

Now I'm back at it, currently averaging five to seven but working my way back up to 10 for my 62nd birthday. I'm not a big cardio person. I only run if someone's chasing me. I lift a build and sculpt muscle and use my diet to keep the body fat down. I'm pretty sedentary though on my three home days, Wednesdays and weekends. I'm mostly on the computer working on my business or helping my mom. But I'm trying to get better at adding in some walking and I know I should really be adding some mobility.

So to the questions. For glutes, despite focusing on glutes twice a week, I don't feel like I'm getting the growth I should. The main movements are the Smith machine hip thrusts. When I can get on at the Smith machine at the gym is really hard to get on. Bulgarian split squats, I do every time. And depending on what's available that day, I'll do hanging dumbbell sumos, cable step downs, cable kickbacks and 45 degree hypers. I know that training right there could probably be refined much better, but that's just what I'm currently doing.

Sometimes I'll do the dumbbell RDLs, but I have a lot of elbow pain if I'm holding anything over 35 pounds for dumbbells. So I kind of started backing off on those. And I'm embarrassed to admit this, but I'm not currently doing any squats, leg press. And even though I actually have a squat rack at home that's barely ever been used, long story, but I bought it on accident a long time ago. But then when I was doing all those home fitness programs, they were just dumbbells, so I wasn't using it then.

So I have that available. Am I missing something obvious? What would you change? Yes, you want the obvious answer? Yeah. So first of all, let me ask this. Do you love the sculpting and shaping thing? Yes. Okay, so do I, I love that. You have to let me put some clay on. I know, I knew you were gonna say that. Well, yeah, this isn't a, even though we can get into squatting and we get into some movements and we could critique the exercise selection, that that's not the problem here.

You have to allow me. If you maintain the leanness that you've maintained for 10 years, it's because majority of time you're in a deficit. Only a small amount of time are you ever in a slight surplus, and that is not enough to add more size to your glutes. It's impossible. It's impossible. You need to let me get you comfortable with adding body fat for a period of time so I could build the glutes, so I can then carve away and sculpt and show you what you want.

I don't think you're surprised at what Adam's saying, because when you mentioned the calories, you kind of stopped, and you're like. I know. Can I add something on that, though? Yeah. Normally, there is quite a fluctuation in there because, like I said, I help my mom a lot, and I go over there. She's got a mixed nut jar that I cannot stay out of. One day, I calculated it. I ate like 1,200 calories of nuts. She also has chocolates and Oreos, which I was starting to have a problem with.

I finally had to quit sugar to get myself to stop. I'm gonna stop you. You're 18% body fat. Yeah, so even if you have. You're too lean to build any muscle. Even if you have these periodic days that you have an extra 1,000 calories, that's my point. 95% of the time, you're in a deficit. 5%, you have these 1,000-calorie nut, chocolate, whatever things. That is not enough for us to build. I'm gonna tell you something right now. Super simple. The solution for what you want is super simple.

Everything you're saying as you're talking, you're giving us all this information, and it's very glaring. It's not your workout. It's very glaring what you need to do, so the advice I'm gonna give you is gonna be life-changing. It's gonna be super simple, but it's gonna be the most difficult thing you ever did because you're afraid of eating more. You're afraid of eating more, hun. You guys, I didn't even wanna call because I knew you were gonna say this. Let me negotiate just for a moment. There's no negotiation.

It's either you want to or you don't, so it's like, how bad? Listen, it's night and day. Well, here's something that I've always been so rabbit-holing and curious about, and I love being lean, and I know that I could get better gains. I have to decide which is more important. Yeah, but the options are, you're creating a false dichotomy. That's right. It's not be lean and be fat. It's be too lean and be lean with muscle, which, by the way, I'm gonna tell you something. Here's what else is gonna happen.

It's a much more comfortable place. You're gonna have less pain. You're gonna have more energy. You're gonna have more vitality, and you're gonna look better. Longevity's not here. You're gonna look better. You're gonna feel healthier. You're gonna be like, oh my God, this is life-changing, but you gotta get through the scary part. Your calories are way too low, way too low. The temporary, the thing I want you to get comfortable with is only of being fluffy, which will feel that way for you. Everybody else in the world would go, oh my God, she looks amazing, and she doesn't, but for you, I know you'll feel, oh my God, my waist has gone up.

Oh, I can't see my abs the same way I saw my abs. You'll feel all that way, but I'll be like, we're packing the clay on right now. Relax. I'm gonna get this metabolism up. We're gonna build this ass, and then we're gonna carve it down. Then you're gonna be lean and ripped again. You'll be eating more calories, and you'll have more booty than you had before. So you won't- You gotta feed the booty. That's right. You have to feed the booty. You're also gonna have less pain.

Part of the reason why your elbow bothered you, you'll get these, because your calories are so low. Yeah. Let me ask something, though, that I've always been curious about. Is there a way to zigzag the calories around your workout days, and still have high-calorie days and lower-calorie days? Wrong question. To still try to keep you in maintenance? Wrong question for you. This is very simple, hon. I'm telling you exactly what you need to do. The challenge is gonna be whether or not you're gonna do it.

I know. So you gotta let go for a second. So here's the deal, okay? Because you remind me of so many trainers I've worked with. You're obviously a fitness fanatic, so I know what the challenge is like. Either you're gonna try to do this on your own, or I think you should work with a coach. Not because you don't know what to do, but because you're not gonna do it. Yeah. And a coach is gonna reverse diet you, and probably by month two or three, you'll be bought in.

Yeah, they'll get you out of your comfort zone. First 30, 60 days, you're gonna be a lot of freaking out. By month two or three, you're gonna be like, what is going on? I feel amazing. I cannot believe how strong I am. Oh my God, I look great. I wish I did this before, is what's gonna happen, about month two or three. Yeah. Scary. Yeah. No, I would love to do that at some point. Right now, it's just not an option for me. Okay, so here's what we're gonna do.

Are you listening to the journey that I'm doing with Corrine right now? How often do you listen? I've been listening, but I haven't heard much on that lately. Yes. Unless you're doing it someplace else, but I've been staying up to date on your podcast. It'd be worth your while to get in her muscle mommy group, so at least you are communicating with her on a weekly basis. Oh, I'd love that. Yeah, I think that would be a great place. I can have Doug send you a link to get in there.

Off the top of my head, your calories need to be never lower than 2,000, probably around 2,500, on average, not sometimes, but on average. Just like Corrine, I had to stair-step her to that point, so a coach would stair-step you up 200 calories every other week or so until you get to a place like that, but at the end of the day, this is a very easy answer. It's very difficult to do. Right, and just my biggest pushback on that has been that I didn't want to take the time, I didn't want to start tracking calories again.

I've always hated doing that. I will admit, doing it the last couple weeks, I'm going, okay, this isn't that, you kind of get in the groove of it, and it's okay. It's tricky, just I've fallen into such an easy pattern of eating that I love, and I just know that I just need to add to it. Here's another question, in adding calories, so the next thing I was going to talk about was carbs, is it okay to have more of my calories with fats, like I love my cheese, my butter.

Yeah, because in fact, I think you need to. If you're eating 170 grams of protein, 1,500 calories, you're eating boiled chicken breast, tilapia, and protein shakes. No, I'm eating all of it. I'm eating steak and ground beef. Like, I'm not the eater that's trying to lose weight anymore. I eat lots of this stuff, like I love my fats, I love my meats, I love all of it. It's just that the calories aren't always adding up, especially because on my work days, since I lift during my breaks, I pack a shake that has just protein and collagen and creatine, I bring a yogurt smoothie bowl with protein powder in it, and sometimes a little bit of olive oil in it, a couple string cheeses and an apple, like I have to do stuff that I can just sneakily eat because I'm using my breaks to lift.

No, that's great, but something's not adding up, Shannon. So can you give me the macros on those days you were tracking, because 170 grams of protein and 1,500 calories, there's not possible there's a lot of fat in there. Yeah, on those days when I'm at work, there's not as much fat. I do eat a couple string cheeses on those days. Can you tell me what those macros look like, proteins, fats, and carbs? Let's see. Thanks. On, let me look up Monday, that was a different. So on Monday, which was a work day, I did 1,620 calories, 165 grams of protein, 44 fat, 179 fat.

You're not eating ground beef, you're not eating ribeyes. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Well, that one was, okay, then yesterday, I had taco salads with ground beef, so that one was, yesterday was also a work day. It was 1,800 calories, 1,880, 175 grams of protein, 97 grams of fat, 104 grams of carbs. You should be no lower than 80 to 90 grams of fat. Yeah, you don't want a 40 gram fat day at all. That is not gonna support. We don't ever wanna go lower than 60 to 80.

That's not gonna support your skin, hair, nails, hormones, your nerves. Yeah. Yeah, you gotta bump your calories on. That's gonna be really scary for you, but you're gonna feel so good when you do it. You're gonna build muscle. You're gonna get really strong very quickly, but you gotta bump your calories way too low. Yeah, okay. And walking around, I'm gonna tell you this right now, for a woman to walk around and maintain 18%, you're sacrificing longevity. Well, yeah, you're in a deficit. You're catabolic most of the time.

An ideal, a healthy. A very small fraction of the time, you're hitting maintenance to a slight surplus. Longevity. Most of the time, you're catabolic. That's why we're not building, right? That's right, and longevity body fat percentages for active women typically are in the low 20s, not below 20. 18%. I've been hearing you guys say that. I was hesitant to even call, but now that I'm on the roll tracking, I'll continue tracking, and you said it doesn't really matter whether it's fat or carbs. No, it's whichever one you like.

I definitely don't want your fat going below 80, though, because that's essential. 44, you missed essential fat there. Yeah, and I usually try to, I'm usually better about adding it in, and our dinners, when we actually do the dinners together, there's always like broccoli with butter, and there's always a meat, and anyway, and I do cheese quite a bit. Well, look, I'm gonna tell you, I know it's really hard. I'm gonna challenge what you said about the way I love to eat this way, because I don't think you do.

I think you think you do, but when you experience what it feels like to fuel yourself, it's very different. It's very, very different. The nutrition that you're having now is a relationship that is not serving you, but it feels like it is, because it feels very controlled. Well, it's simple, and so what, I tend to get very focused on stuff, and right now, I need to focus on building my business, and I get afraid of, because I will get tunnel vision. That's why I didn't wanna compete again.

I just get tunnel vision, and push other stuff aside, and I need to be focusing on the business and stuff, but I know I can do both if I'm careful about it, but I just didn't wanna spend a ton of time preparing food and doing all that. You actually don't, Shannon, you don't have to be that careful, okay? You are so low body fat percentage that we can get away with not tracking like crazy, and go have the five guys. You can get away with that, and I'm gonna say to you exactly what I said to Corinne two days ago when we sat down and met, so I've continued to push her up.

She's 12 to 15 pounds heavier than she's ever been right now, and she's asking, what are we doing this week? And I said, I want you to add 200 more calories, and the look on her face when I say that to her, and the thing that I said to her and remind her is like, you have already proven you know how to get lean and shredded. That is easy for you. It is hard for you to get bigger, fluffier. That's the work, so what I'm asking you to do is to do the work, do that, and don't worry about what it looks like, feels like, because you can come back any time.

It's so easy for you to reign it in, tighten up, and get lean. You've proven that. You're 60-some years old, and you're shredded. You have proven you can do that. At the highest level, you've competed. Same thing with her, like stop worrying about that. We can go get that any time we want. Let's let's put the work in on on adding and building and pushing calories and guess what if you push a little too far one Week, so what? Push a little harder next week because I know I can turn you I can turn the two of you the other direction real quick Real easy.

I'm gonna tell you you add 500 calories consistently to your diet You're gonna have more energy and more motivation for building your business. Your body is running on fumes Yeah, I'm excited to bring back I had to take nuts and nut butters out of the house because I couldn't control myself So that'll be a fun way to add some yes Here's what we're gonna do because I I have I don't have a ton of confidence you're gonna follow what we say So here's what we're gonna do comes the accountability.

I'm gonna have you come back on in 60 days 60 days. We're gonna have a conversation and see where you're at with it all. Yeah, right. Yeah. Yeah, okay And as far as carbs around the workouts are carbs that important like do I need to start packing more than my apple and You'll stuff. I think the higher calories will make you feel amazing You can play with the carbs and see how it fuels your workouts Yeah carbs are not essential. So and you're getting you know, you're getting some but sometime listen I have people who kind of kind of go low carb all the time I bump their carbs up and they just feel amazing So base it off of how you feel one time I played around with blending cooked sweet potato into my yogurt protein smoothie bowl And maybe I could do that to have a little carb during the day.

Absolutely. I have to like just quickly scarf my food We'll see you in 60 days Those calories you will build your butt you will build everything Yeah, and then also just looking for recommendations on on what next should I stick with the upper like that? I'm not worried about your program. I mean I could send you one of mine, but I think what you're doing is perfectly fine This is not a program thing. This is all just too little Nutrition too little nutrients, but I can send you a program if you want muscle mommy.

I could say no. No, she went up or lower That's a lower. I can afford the four-day split. We just wrote right? That's the one We'll send you that one. Yeah. Yeah, we'll send you that one Thank you so much you guys. Yeah, you got it. We'll see you in 60 days. That's right. All right. She's super fluffy I want to see you eating on this next call All right. Thank you That's a that's a it's a lot of denial going on. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

I know I love eating this way It's like this is a terrible example or comparison. It's like, you know, my boyfriend, you know, sometimes he gets mad and you know He throws things at me and hit me. Well, why don't you leave? I love him. I don't think you love him I think you're in an abusive relationship Well, the the the mouth didn't add up either when you're doing we're doing the hundred how many no I was like wait a second That's that should be well straight up and I hope she watches this because she can take it like and I've worked with we've worked With people like her she's withholding information She's probably doesn't want to hear she knows what the right advice is.

She doesn't want to hear it Yeah, but but the truth is listen if you watch this Shannon if you can you just do it Just do what we say for 30 days. It will change your life, but it was so scary It'll be so scary to consistently eat more but oh my god, you want to talk about muscle and strength and energy pain in her email There's things she shouldn't talk about here, but she has areas that hurt trying to wonder what's going on What's happening?

You're just underfed. Yeah, and you're trailing pain is your catabolic. She's catabolic or 90% of the time That's right 90% of time. She's catabolic And so yeah her that which means her body's breaking down and you should not live at 18% body fat As a woman you don't live there, it's especially as we age Especially as you age. Yeah something if she has something catastrophic happen and she needs to like be hospitalized. That's gonna be tough Yeah, I can be able to support her, right? Our next caller is Jennifer from South Carolina.

Hi Jennifer. Hi Jennifer. Hey, hi guys. Thank you so much for taking my call How can I help you? Yeah, I'm just gonna read directly from my email so I don't stray Off course, okay, no worries. Yeah. All right. I'm 52 years old. I'm five five I was introduced to your show about seven months ago Your first few podcasts I listened to made me aware that everything I did in my workout routine Was everything you say not to do I have since listened to your show and I've gained so much knowledge a little background I have been in the gym since I was 16.

I've always had a competitive mindset I started swimming at age 7 and was a top competitive swimmer in the summer league races I started running in middle school, which led into road biking and then eventually into triathlons I ran cross-country and track in high school. I got into mountain biking participated in some adventure races and triathlons I've always been conscious about my size and that has a lot to do with my hard work and dedication to being healthy The problem for me is that my weight never goes down it seems the harder I work the bigger I get and It is very frustrating as I got older The mentality was more is better in the gym and less is more in the diet since listening to your show I've had a lot of mental rewiring.

The first program I ran was maps anabolic and excuse me Anabolic and that was a mental challenge because it went against everything. I thought to be true I started tracking my calories and became more aware of my protein I had a few months in the concierge program, but I had to let that go for financial reasons I've since done power lift and muscle mommy and just started upper lower my calories have been between 21 and 2200 for about six months with protein around 170 and my steps are 8 to 10 I still like to slant swim at least once a week My sleep is 7 to 8 hours a night.

My energy levels are good The scale has only gone up about 3 or 5 pounds since upping my calories to the 21 22 I meal prep all my meals and stick to whole foods. My Constantly getting stronger. I Have attached my DEXA scan for you. I just had that done recently I didn't know if that was something you guys could take a look at without revealing any numbers I had my RMR done, which was 1449 my lab values are all within normal on hormone replacement for estrogen only So my problem is not due to any lack of dedication In the gym, I love working out and lifting.

The problem is that my body Refuses to go down on the scale and my clothing size refuses to go down and I have never shown any significant body comp Changes reflecting any of my hard work and dedication. Yeah, I get that. So I didn't know what you guys think No, thanks for calling in, you know, but by the way, you're kicking butt. Yeah, you're doing a really good job Actually, you're doing a really really good job Where were your calories before you bumped them up to the the 21 2200 that you're at now?

Oh, I never counted honestly, but I'm sure they were 1,500 I mean it was you know packets of tuna for lunch and Apple, you know, never really Focusing on hitting my Protein target of 170 is where I'm trying to hit right now. Okay. Okay, and then how long would you say? Before you moved into this direction How long were you doing the like more work less food kind of mentality and approach how many years with that? Probably forever. Okay. So and how long have you been doing this right here?

I Just finished a six months with you following it strict. Okay, excellent job Yeah, so in six months the scale went up a few pounds, but your calories are higher and you're strong By the way, I can see I see in your in your email that you're a bench of 135 Yeah, yeah, it's actually gone up a little bit since that that's exceptional. Okay, so here's what it looks like now first off because you had such a long history of doing it a Particular way takes a while to get the metabolic rate to start to really respond Which it's starting to by the way, I could tell by that by the strength gains But what it looks like is slowly building and then you do the cut later and then you see the fat loss But I don't like cutting you when you're only at 21 to 2200 calories still too low to cut you Keep going if you were to cut to 1,500 right now, you would see some weight loss, but then it would plateau And we wouldn't have anywhere to go.

So I would want to see your calories get closer to 26 27 28 Before we would cut before we do the cut. So Essentially stay the course you're doing anything, right? Let me ask you a few questions over the last six months Since you've bumped your calories you're doing the strength training. I see you're swimming in your email any changes in how you feel Yeah, I mean my energy levels are good and I feel a lot better you know, I I've always looked forward to going to the gym But I look more forward to it now because I feel like every day.

I'm going up a little bit more Focusing a little bit more on my technique working a little bit more on the intensity My biggest struggle I think right now and in the gym is that that three minute I'm just gonna ask you I was just gonna ask you how their rest periods going for an athlete I Follow them, but after about a minute, I'm I'm antsy But no, I follow it and I just think you know when you Have been in the gym for like a really long time or the same gym You know for a really long time and you see the same people and then you know They get the results or they've just had a baby or something and they come back full force And it's just you know, I'm just kind of waiting for my little golden moment I can't find it I asked you how you felt because I wanted to point something out and you said you felt a lot better and it sounds like You just have more energy more motivation.

You just overall you feel like you have better vitality. Would that be a fair statement? Okay, I wonder if I wanted to point that out because you've been improving the last six months. Yeah Things are changing that didn't come out of nowhere Things are changing the aesthetic changes happen a little late a little later because we still got to get to a place where we can Cut from we don't want to go back to where we were before which is what would happen if we cut you right now If we cut you now We definitely would see some fat loss But it would plateau and then you'd be stuck at 1500 calories again And you would feel the way you did when you were eating so low and it's important to note that when you take somebody who?

Potentially was around 1500 calories eating and not seeing any sort of Change in their body and I get them all the way up to 21 to 2200 and we see little to no gain really in Body fat that's a huge accomplishment win, and it's like now in the next six months Can we do that again if we went from 500 or 1500 to 22? Can we now go from 22 to 28 in the next 600 and again? Even if the weight the scale doesn't change very much is that a huge that's a huge win But it's hard because I know you're putting the work in so you're like I want but it's like this is the right way to Do it if we're gonna do this and we're gonna keep it off for the rest of your life And you're gonna have that golden moment.

You're gonna feel amazing. This is the path This is the right way to go about it And so once we get up to that 2,800 calories Then we bring you back down to 22 Which is where you're at now And you just the weight the map the body fat just comes off and you feel like you're being fed You got good energy like all the signs that you feel now Vitality all those things but also leaning out and then it looks like this beautiful. You're not having to force it It's just happening for you, but it's gonna take a little bit of time because that's why Sal asked how long Were you on the other side because if you the longer you've been on that side the longer it seems to take my clients for Their metabolism to respond the way we want to respond.

And so just be patient. You're doing great. You're doing really good If you're putting on from say 20 21 22 going up to 26 in the next six months So what does that look like? Should it be a hundred calories a week 50 calories a week and then where should my protein still be at? 170 and then I get kind of confused protein So protein you're you're for the entire period of this this whole process your protein solid and just keep It always come from carbs and fat and it's normally whichever one you you're more comfortable with My only one thing with my female clients that keep an eye on is make sure your fats not too low So if you're not getting at least 60 to 80 grams of fat a day I would tell you to go fat, but if you're getting that then I'd say wherever you want it from fat or Carbohydrates it this is a generic answer, but it looks like about 200 calories We will bump there.

We I normally hold a client there for a couple weeks What I want to see is the scale staying the same I don't want to see it rising in it You might see like an initial little bump and then it kind of level out and some of the dips back down and then levels but I want to see that kind of hold for about a week or two before I bump again and then I'm gonna and so I'm just gonna keep incrementally doing this 150 to 200 calories.

It's normally about every two weeks or so Sometimes it's three if I want it to be if I don't see weight kind of stabilizing But I'm looking for weight to stabilize for a solid week before I bump again like that And that's kind of what it looks stair-stepping all the way through that process maintaining your steps what you're doing Maintaining the workouts the way you're doing Everything that is all staying the same and those calories are coming from either carbs or fat Okay, yep All right and play with those by the way like if you have the Flexibility in the diet because while I'm coaching someone I like to it's like some people just Run more optimally on a higher fat diet and they're like man out of my skin.

I know it's a difference my home profile I sleep better on some people carbs. They're like, oh my god out of those extra 100 grams of carbs My workouts are amazing now and I feel good and my muscle belly so play with it Sometimes go more fat and see how you feel for a while Sometimes go more carbs go a blend of the two and and and so I would encourage you to play with the two of them Okay, that's kind of where I Figured that yeah, what you guys are gonna say and especially especially about bumping those gap those calories up to 26 28.

Yeah Yeah, you're doing so good to be interesting what that looks like because 22 feels like a lot Yeah, and so that's a lot of it by the way, too So back to I gave you a generic answer very two weeks Sometimes that's longer because a client of mine It's like 22 is already raw and then I go 24 and you're going. Oh my god, this is so hard So I gotta kind of sometimes I have to kind of pull you back then at 23 for a little bit and then go back So it's hard to give like an exact answer that looks like but the ultimate goal is in six months from now We're eating close to 2,800 calories what that roadmap looks like is very individualized It could be every week going up a little bit.

It could be every two weeks It could be we go up for a few weeks And then I have to pull you back a little bit for a while to give you a diet break because you feel like you're Just stuffing yourself every day. So that's where the individualized kind of coaching happens is like but overall That's that your goal should be set on Getting stronger getting those calories up to there before we even think about the cut process and then the cutting will be a lot easier.

That's right. All right, well it's doable. I'm up for a challenge always. And I want you to keep having fun with the activity too. I know you're swimming now. You have such a background of athleticism. Have fun with that. Don't ever stop doing that. Enjoy it because that's gonna keep you consistent forever. Don't do it to burn and try and lose body fat. Do it because you like doing it. Because you love doing it. That's a hard divide right there. It is a very hard divide.

That's why I wanted to say that because sometimes when Sal gives someone permission like that, that's like permission to try and burn it off. It's like no, no, no, don't. That's not what he's saying. Just go have fun. Have fun. If you love to swim, swim because you love to swim. Don't swim because you're like oh I think I burned an extra 800 calories today. That I don't want you to get into. And later on we can lean into that on the cutting process when I go hey pick up another day of swimming so we can increase that caloric deficit.

But we're not there yet right now. Right now we're in build process. So I want you to build, stay active, but don't go out of your way to do that stuff trying to burn. Now Jennifer, if you want somebody to coach you through that, we have coaches. You just let us know and I'll set you up on a call and you can see what that looks like and they'll walk with you the whole. She was at the concierge for months. Oh good. You got great information then.

Oh perfect. They were they were very great and very helpful with all that. I hated to have to bump out but I got some life activities that are happening and so I had to make a choice and unfortunately I had to drop that one. So I guess in six months I'll do another DEXA scan and we'll see what happens. I wasn't real happy with that. Don't worry about it. That one kind of told what I thought it would. That's the starting point. That's all that matters.

Doesn't matter what it says. It's like where we go from here is what matters. Don't discard, like always remember, don't discredit like I feel better, I'm stronger, I'm moving better. Like those are all signs you're progressing. It's not just a scale. Yeah. It's very different after listening to you guys to go in and do a whole mental rewire which has been excellent and then to actually challenge myself personally after being on the bench in years past but being stuck in a certain weight and not realizing that I really could and now at 52 I'm doing I'm like what I'm loading you know with 45.

That's just insane to me. You know it feels pretty badass. By the way 135 pound bench for women is very very very impressive. Very very. You're doing a great job right now. You're doing great. All right well I'll just I'll stay the course and stick with it. All right keep it up Jennifer. Yeah perfect. Thank you guys. Thank you. She's doing great. Yeah she's doing great. Doing really good. If she stays consistent it's gonna be amazing for her in six months. Yeah just you know good opportunity to talk about how the longer that you were in that that extreme mindset.

It seems to be that way for sure. Yeah that this is uh this can be the the really difficult part is and then she you know obviously she hears the show and we give advice then you get the we get these great testimonies people calling in oh my god I lost all this weight and then because we took your advice and they see it in six months or nine months and sometimes this takes a year two years for somebody to rebound their metabolism for so many years of the yo-yo dieting and the chronic extreme training with the chronic low calories.

I had a client that took me a year and we would I've had so slow and we would see this this fluctuation the scale that really scary and it just took us a long time but she had a long history of underrating. One of my last clients I took on when I was at the in the gym was a case that took me two years and she was a collegiate level softball player had put on a lot of weight and her mentality was just cut hard and she had she was strong she was capable she put but it took us literally two years before it really started to move like that and during that process we had a lot of these were you know reverse dieting and then I would show her just to prove to her I knew what I was doing like I could shred 10-15 pounds off you real quick but I you have a lot more that you want to go so we had to keep going this way so yeah I took home it took her that was the longest though I've never had anybody take that long I remember how frustrating it was for me also had a sports medicine degree so she like knew her shit yeah so even harder it was like trying to get more stuff yeah our next caller is Becky from Ontario hi Becky Becky hi how are you good how can we help you it's great to be with you guys I've been a big fan now for about a year I've been listening and binging on all of your podcasts I'm just gonna read my email because I'm really nervous thank you for all you do to help people with their health and fitness goals I'm looking for some listener coaching from Sal Adam and Justin regarding my metabolism and nutrition post menopause I'm currently 52 years old I'm 5 foot 2 I'm 140 pounds I recently made a massive lifestyle shift for five years from 2020 to 2025 I was vegan and I and I was a runner I didn't really lift weights or anything but over starting in 2025 April March April I went back to eating meat and dairy I stopped running I started lifting a couple times a week and Pilates three times a week as well as pickleball two hours on Sundays I started realizing pretty quickly though that I was I felt like I was over training so in December I stopped playing pickleball on Sundays and I stopped the Pilates and then I started training with a coach two days a week I really haven't seen any fat loss I feel like I'm stronger but I don't see any fat loss in fact since April of 2025 till now I've gained 15 pounds and 9.6 is fat and 5 pounds of lean mass I'm kind of not sure what to do at this point I've been trying to pay attention to my protein intake as well as I've been starting to track calories and I'm starting to think maybe I've been under fueling so when I was tracking I was getting you know any I think under 1,500 calories a day and now I've been trying to work on reverse dieting in a bit and I the last few weeks I've been consistently around 17 to 22 100 calories I'm just wondering is this the right way to go I know you always say that reverse dieting takes time and trust the process but it's really difficult because I'm I weigh more than I ever have mm-hmm so I guess I just want to look for some input input from you yeah well thanks for calling in and it is very hard so I have a few more questions to ask you if that's okay sure so what made you stop being a vegan and a runner because I wanted to start lifting weights okay was there something that happened was their energy injury was it like you got some health markers come back I'm not really I just didn't like I just I just really wanted to get strong I wanted to get sculpted and I wanted to look good and I knew it wasn't and I started listening to your podcast and that was the one thing that changed I love it what are the differences that you felt since you switched to have you said you think you're stronger what do you mean by that or what do you notice stronger I mean I I just did I just entered it into a deadlift competition and I was able to lift 175 let's go so my my my top weight there is 185 and I can bench press 90 that's great that's incredible yeah I've never done anything like that before so I know I'm stronger but I'm just I'm not seeing it on my body you know I just there's this layer of fat that I just can't drop it's gonna take a little while because your calories are so low hun so and you may gain some body weight but the other option is to just do what you were doing before which wasn't working either so we got we got to keep moving in a direction where we have a little runway I seen your email that you it's you it says you were shocked to find out that you were eating around a thousand ninety calories a day when was that yeah when I was I just decided to randomly track and I was like whoa that's that's really low I expected it to be more than that yeah it's important through this process of reverse dieting because what can be disheartening or what can be discouraging is to watch the scale either go up a little bit or not change at all or to see that the body fats not coming off but what tends to happen is we ignore some of the other things that are happening like strength energy mobility sleep libido if you're noticing improvements in all those areas it's because the reverse diets working it's doing exactly what it's supposed to do the fat loss doesn't happen till later when we have some place to cut from because there was nowhere to cut from before your calories are so low we if we cut you it would have made you sick and we're still too low so you know 1,700 to 2,000 if we cut you we would bring you down to 1,200 and you might see a little bit of fat loss but then you plateau you lose strength and you would feel crappy it wouldn't put you in a good place so it's you know I'm pretty full eating what I'm eating right now so I don't know if I need to just eat more meals per day or no what I'll have so what happens and we get this question a lot especially on live callers of like what exactly does the reverse diet look like and it's so hard because everybody's gonna be a little bit different like somebody we put on a reverse diet it's like oh my god my appetites through the roof I can eat so much other people be like I feel like I'm stuffing myself this is so hard to get this food down and so what'll happen is you'll hit you're probably pushing to a good point right now where you said your calories are you'll stay there maintaining that while continuing to lift and get stronger then all sudden out of nowhere you'll start to feel this appetite increase and that's a great sign it's probably because you built a little bit of muscle you're getting stronger now the body's saying hey it needs more calories then we lean into that then we bump the calories again then you'll be at another place again we're like oh my god it's a lot of food we hope we stay there for a while then all sudden strength goes up again in the gym followed by that comes appetite and so it kind of looks like that and it's just stair-stepping process and it's not like this clear like okay we're gonna add 200 calories every three weeks forever it's like no you're gonna add it you're gonna keep it there for a little bit and then you're gonna and you should see the results of the strength in the gym and then not long after that you typically feel the appetite come up a little bit and then it's like okay we can bump the calories again and that's right and there's and there's more to add to that too so when you say you're feeling full explain that to me is it like your stomach hurts you're bloated is it just I feel like I'm satisfied okay you know I'm hungry at my meal times but I'm not hungry in between I've never been a snacker okay okay good now how long before all of this would you say you were eating very little or kind of under eating how many years was that oh my whole life okay probably yeah I mean I would say so for sure and I went through a period to when when I was intermittent fasting so I would I wouldn't eat breakfast and then since I started listening to you guys I started eating breakfast because it's a good you know it's an extra meal that I'm getting more protein in okay so I'm not I'm not to dismiss what you're saying okay so because because that's how you feel but there is a very strong psychological component to appetite so I can get somebody I'll use myself as an example because I if you've listened to show you probably heard me tell a story but as a kid I felt like I was really skinny I was always trying to gain muscle always trying to get size and so I conditioned myself that full felt a particular way and really what it was I was just stuffing myself later when I was eating appropriately I felt like I wasn't eating enough I had to recalibrate what that actually felt like on the other end of the spectrum people under eat for years and years and years or for the whole life what they're used to satisfaction feeling like is being underfed yeah and being I'm overstuffed is actually this is actually how much this is what you're supposed to feel like and you kind of got a oftentimes tell people listen to your to your body but there are cases where I tell people actually we got to ignore your body signals right now you're not eating enough or you're eating too much and so I think that's a little bit of probably what's happening because you've had such a history of under eating that eating more of an appropriate amount feels like oh my god I'm eating so much food and I'm not full or I'm too full when in reality it's it's more appropriate this is this is the power of a good coach right a good coach you know takes in the information that you're giving them and then there might be a time where I'm like okay I'm gonna ask you I'm gonna push you in that direction now I know you feel that way I'm gonna push you a little bit and then I want to see how you feel and respond and so there's this kind of this ebb and flow of taking in the data from you and what you're feeling and what we're doing a little bit of me stretching you sometimes having to pull back sometimes and a good coach will walk you through all this because Sal's right when you've been doing that when you've been eating a certain way for so long we're all guilty this I'm guilty the same similar story as Sal we've and I've talked about it on the show many times like man I've realized like I ate to be this big guy for so long that my my view of a full plate is totally distorted and I'm like I have to recalibrate that completely and you're no different you're just on the other side of the spectrum of that and so some of that is rewiring that you're not used to eating what would be an appropriate amount to to strengthen build muscle the reverse diet is gonna feel uncomfortable in other words okay you just kind of cut except it's gonna feel uncomfortable for a little while until you start to get used to what it feels like and then of course we'll have the cut on the other end of it and then we're gonna should I be in the gym more than two days a week no no I think you're perfectly fine you're getting stronger you're doing great yep I like strength training twice a week on your days off you're tracking your steps is that are you doing that I do I do still do like really long hikes like I've got a long hike this Saturday 32 32 kilometer hike this Saturday oh you're great yeah I like it you're great listen the day before that long hike I want you to feed yourself yeah yeah so make sure you get up to 2,500 calories the day before that'll help you yeah fuel up before fuel up right after feed the body on those long I mean but your your activity level is great yeah stay the course you're moving in the right direction for sure and always remind yourself energy strength vitality because those things will help keep you on course when you're, you know, cause otherwise we get too focused on the scale and the body fat when it's not even time for that yet.

Okay, is there a specific cue or some way I'm going to know when is a good time for me to start cutting? Typically we want to get you to a point calorically where when we can drop you, you're at a nice maintenance of something that feels comfortable. So someone like you, your activity level, the hiking, spring trail, that stuff, I probably would want to cut you closer to 2000 calories. I think that's a nice maintenance caloric intake where you're not going to feel like you're starving.

You've got nice energy. So that probably means we need to get you closer to the higher twos with your calories first. Yep. Okay. So you're thinking 2,800. Yeah. Around there. Give or take. Yep. I know. It sounds, it sounds crazy. It sounds crazy. It's actually one of my favorite things to do with clients is you tell them that early in the, in the process. And they're like, they cannot imagine eating that much. And then they get there. They're like, I can't believe. And I'm hungry. And I eat this every day and I maintain the weight I like.

It's just, it's an amazing thing when you unlock it, but it takes patience. The psychological part is hard. We've got a lot of rewiring to do from so many years of doing it a different way. And so be patient with that and know that if you need help, we have coaches, that's what they do. So if you need help from us and you want that support. If you want somebody to walk you through the whole process, we have amazing coaches and that's what they'll do. And they'll change it and adjust it along the way.

That sounds great. Thank you. Yeah, you got it. You got it. Well, thanks for calling in. Thank you very much. Keep doing what you're doing. Same. Thank you. Yeah, I mean, similar, similar to the previous, you know, some, some of the previous callers, it's just, there's the consistency there. But what's interesting, the most interesting thing about this is, and I've heard this so many times, I feel like I'm stuffing myself. Yeah. And it's because you're so used to under eating that that's your comfort zone that when you start to, you know, especially going from vegan to eating meat again, I'm sure that's satiating.

A hundred percent. You gotta get through that. And I know the opposite of it. Like, it took me a while to understand what a normal meal looks like because normal to me in the past was a lot. Totally. Look, if you like the show, come find us on Instagram. It's Mind Pump Media. Thank you for listening to Mind Pump. If your goal is to build and shape your body, dramatically improve your health and energy and maximize your overall performance, check out our discounted RGB Super Bundle at mindpumpmedia.com.

The RGB Super Bundle includes MAPS Anabolic, MAPS Performance, and MAPS Aesthetic. Nine months of phased expert exercise programming designed by Sal, Adam, and Justin to systematically transform the way your body looks, feels, and performs. With detailed workout blueprints and over 200 videos, the RGB Super Bundle is like having Sal, Adam, and Justin as your own personal trainers, but at a fraction of the price. The RGB Super Bundle has a full 30-day money-back guarantee, and you can get it now plus other valuable free resources at mindpumpmedia.com.

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