They're Opening the Stock Market to Everyone. Here's What That Actually Means

All right, everybody. Welcome to the All right, everybody. Welcome to the All-In Interview program. Today, we are All-In Interview program. Today, we are All-In Interview program. Today, we are delighted to have two of the most delighted to have two of the most delighted to have two of the most important individuals shaping capital important individuals shaping capital important individuals shaping capital markets over the next couple of years. markets over the next couple of years. markets over the next couple of years. SEC Chair Paul Atkins is with us as well SEC Chair Paul Atkins is with us as well SEC Chair Paul Atkins is with us as well as CFTC Chair Michael Celig. Welcome to as CFTC Chair Michael Celig. Welcome to as CFTC Chair Michael Celig. Welcome to the All-In Interview Show, gentlemen. the All-In Interview Show, gentlemen. the All-In Interview Show, gentlemen. >> Glad to be here. >> Glad to be here. >> Glad to be here. >> Thank you very much. Great to be here. >> Thank you very much. Great to be here. >> Thank you very much. Great to be here. Yeah. Also with me my bestie Shamath Yeah. Also with me my bestie Shamath Yeah. Also with me my bestie Shamath Polyhapatia who is known to participate Polyhapatia who is known to participate Polyhapatia who is known to participate in capital markets. I think there's a in capital markets. I think there's a in capital markets. I think there's a great structure here for us to talk many great structure here for us to talk many great structure here for us to talk many opportunities opportunities opportunities and then guard rails and things that we and then guard rails and things that we and then guard rails and things that we should be concerned about in such a should be concerned about in such a should be concerned about in such a dynamic time. Chairman Atkins, this is dynamic time. Chairman Atkins, this is dynamic time. Chairman Atkins, this is your third tour of duty since the '9s. your third tour of duty since the '9s. your third tour of duty since the '9s. Things have changed dramatically. So Things have changed dramatically. So Things have changed dramatically. So maybe just to start us off here and I maybe just to start us off here and I maybe just to start us off here and I know Chimat's got a lot of great know Chimat's got a lot of great know Chimat's got a lot of great questions ready to go. I'm just curious questions ready to go. I'm just curious questions ready to go. I'm just curious in your time, let's say, the last 40 in your time, let's say, the last 40 in your time, let's say, the last 40 years or so, what has uh what have you years or so, what has uh what have you years or so, what has uh what have you noted here about capital markets and how noted here about capital markets and how noted here about capital markets and how they've changed and what's important for they've changed and what's important for they've changed and what's important for us looking forward? us looking forward? us looking forward? >> Well, thanks. It's great to be here and >> Well, thanks. It's great to be here and >> Well, thanks. It's great to be here and see both of you all uh today. Well, so I see both of you all uh today. Well, so I see both of you all uh today. Well, so I started out as a young lawyer uh in New started out as a young lawyer uh in New started out as a young lawyer uh in New York City doing uh corporation finance York City doing uh corporation finance York City doing uh corporation finance work, you know, new offerings and that work, you know, new offerings and that work, you know, new offerings and that sort of thing in the mid80s and uh and sort of thing in the mid80s and uh and sort of thing in the mid80s and uh and it's and there you know to to be a it's and there you know to to be a it's and there you know to to be a startup company and to to build your startup company and to to build your startup company and to to build your products and do R&D and all that uh you products and do R&D and all that uh you products and do R&D and all that uh you had to go public uh in order to so Apple had to go public uh in order to so Apple had to go public uh in order to so Apple and Microsoft advanced micro devices all and Microsoft advanced micro devices all and Microsoft advanced micro devices all of those companies started off as um as of those companies started off as um as of those companies started off as um as uh you know IP POS uh and so Andre and uh you know IP POS uh and so Andre and uh you know IP POS uh and so Andre and Horowitz has a really I think a really Horowitz has a really I think a really Horowitz has a really I think a really good uh bar chart where they compare the good uh bar chart where they compare the good uh bar chart where they compare the companies of the uh early and mid to companies of the uh early and mid to companies of the uh early and mid to late 80s to uh today where I mean it late 80s to uh today where I mean it late 80s to uh today where I mean it just basically demonstrates through the just basically demonstrates through the just basically demonstrates through the ROI that uh insiders versus the buyers ROI that uh insiders versus the buyers ROI that uh insiders versus the buyers of uh the public stock uh you know of uh the public stock uh you know of uh the public stock uh you know enjoyed from those early companies. The enjoyed from those early companies. The enjoyed from those early companies. The insiders meaning, you know, there's not insiders meaning, you know, there's not insiders meaning, you know, there's not much private equity or venture capital much private equity or venture capital much private equity or venture capital back then, but the insiders meaning the back then, but the insiders meaning the back then, but the insiders meaning the officers, directors, and whatnot, they officers, directors, and whatnot, they officers, directors, and whatnot, they had a relatively thin slice of the had a relatively thin slice of the had a relatively thin slice of the entire pie. I mean, everyone made out entire pie. I mean, everyone made out entire pie. I mean, everyone made out well obviously, but the public uh well obviously, but the public uh well obviously, but the public uh purchasers of in the IPO, you know, made purchasers of in the IPO, you know, made purchasers of in the IPO, you know, made out very well over the years and and had out very well over the years and and had out very well over the years and and had the lion share of that. You look at the lion share of that. You look at the lion share of that. You look at today the current uh situation where you today the current uh situation where you today the current uh situation where you know we have robust private capital know we have robust private capital know we have robust private capital markets and uh we have fully today half markets and uh we have fully today half markets and uh we have fully today half the number of public companies as we had the number of public companies as we had the number of public companies as we had 30 years ago and it's completely 30 years ago and it's completely 30 years ago and it's completely reversed. The return on investment is um reversed. The return on investment is um reversed. The return on investment is um you know mainly to the insiders, private you know mainly to the insiders, private you know mainly to the insiders, private equity, venture capital and the equity, venture capital and the equity, venture capital and the corporate officers and employees versus corporate officers and employees versus corporate officers and employees versus the the public because they're they're the the public because they're they're the the public because they're they're mature companies when they actually go mature companies when they actually go mature companies when they actually go public. So that's a huge change. the public. So that's a huge change. the public. So that's a huge change. the private markets are, you know, very private markets are, you know, very private markets are, you know, very robust and and strong, but uh but uh robust and and strong, but uh but uh robust and and strong, but uh but uh anyway, but the American capital markets anyway, but the American capital markets anyway, but the American capital markets are are very healthy. I think are are very healthy. I think are are very healthy. I think >> when you look at that back then, there >> when you look at that back then, there >> when you look at that back then, there was a real requirement for everybody to was a real requirement for everybody to was a real requirement for everybody to do an enormous amount of work because to do an enormous amount of work because to do an enormous amount of work because to your point, these companies were quite your point, these companies were quite your point, these companies were quite young. You'd be a four or 5year-old young. You'd be a four or 5year-old young. You'd be a four or 5year-old company and you'd go public because the company and you'd go public because the company and you'd go public because the going public was not about monetizing going public was not about monetizing going public was not about monetizing anything. It was actually a fundraising anything. It was actually a fundraising anything. It was actually a fundraising moment. it was like a series C or or a moment. it was like a series C or or a moment. it was like a series C or or a series D. I guess the answer is the series D. I guess the answer is the series D. I guess the answer is the reason it changed was probably because reason it changed was probably because reason it changed was probably because to your point there's all these returns to your point there's all these returns to your point there's all these returns and so investors said well let's go and so investors said well let's go and so investors said well let's go capture these in the private markets for capture these in the private markets for capture these in the private markets for us and our LPs but what it also does is us and our LPs but what it also does is us and our LPs but what it also does is then change the nature of how these then change the nature of how these then change the nature of how these markets behave. Can you just comment on markets behave. Can you just comment on markets behave. Can you just comment on the amount of time companies are staying the amount of time companies are staying the amount of time companies are staying private, the dir of the IPO private, the dir of the IPO private, the dir of the IPO because it has become a liquidity because it has become a liquidity because it has become a liquidity defining moment and is much more so than defining moment and is much more so than defining moment and is much more so than the financing moment and whether things the financing moment and whether things the financing moment and whether things should change and if so how do you want should change and if so how do you want should change and if so how do you want to change that and why? Yeah. Well, it's to change that and why? Yeah. Well, it's to change that and why? Yeah. Well, it's a free market obviously, so you know, a free market obviously, so you know, a free market obviously, so you know, investors, we should allow the market to investors, we should allow the market to investors, we should allow the market to develop as it will, but uh you're develop as it will, but uh you're develop as it will, but uh you're exactly right. So now it's more of a exactly right. So now it's more of a exactly right. So now it's more of a liquidity event um for insiders and um liquidity event um for insiders and um liquidity event um for insiders and um and so what we are seeing now is uh in and so what we are seeing now is uh in and so what we are seeing now is uh in the private markets, you know, there's a the private markets, you know, there's a the private markets, you know, there's a lot of capital that's uh where people lot of capital that's uh where people lot of capital that's uh where people are willing to deploy it uh to companies are willing to deploy it uh to companies are willing to deploy it uh to companies at early stages and then to to stay on. at early stages and then to to stay on. at early stages and then to to stay on. But at the same time there is there are But at the same time there is there are But at the same time there is there are inhibitions for uh for private companies inhibitions for uh for private companies inhibitions for uh for private companies to go public and one of them is the the to go public and one of them is the the to go public and one of them is the the um the uh cost of our rules to comply um the uh cost of our rules to comply um the uh cost of our rules to comply with our rules and the disclosure ones with our rules and the disclosure ones with our rules and the disclosure ones especially where we have all the annual especially where we have all the annual especially where we have all the annual report requirements proxy statements and report requirements proxy statements and report requirements proxy statements and all of that and so uh and then quarterly all of that and so uh and then quarterly all of that and so uh and then quarterly reporting and and so forth. So that is reporting and and so forth. So that is reporting and and so forth. So that is one big inhibition where things are not one big inhibition where things are not one big inhibition where things are not necessarily focused on materiality necessarily focused on materiality necessarily focused on materiality anymore. anymore. anymore. >> Are you allowed to convene a group of >> Are you allowed to convene a group of >> Are you allowed to convene a group of people and start to line item these people and start to line item these people and start to line item these rules out or change them or does it have rules out or change them or does it have rules out or change them or does it have to go through some much more robust to go through some much more robust to go through some much more robust process where there's a lot of competing process where there's a lot of competing process where there's a lot of competing reasons why some people some lobbies reasons why some people some lobbies reasons why some people some lobbies maybe may want these rules? maybe may want these rules? maybe may want these rules? >> Oh, sure. I mean, they're vested >> Oh, sure. I mean, they're vested >> Oh, sure. I mean, they're vested interests in everything, but that is interests in everything, but that is interests in everything, but that is part of my program uh for this year and part of my program uh for this year and part of my program uh for this year and going into next is to go through our going into next is to go through our going into next is to go through our rule rule book. We need a spring rule rule book. We need a spring rule rule book. We need a spring cleaning. We need cleaning out the cleaning. We need cleaning out the cleaning. We need cleaning out the attic, the basement, and the garage and attic, the basement, and the garage and attic, the basement, and the garage and to really look at things unlike the to really look at things unlike the to really look at things unlike the agency has ever done before with a real agency has ever done before with a real agency has ever done before with a real focus on materiality. So, that's one. focus on materiality. So, that's one. focus on materiality. So, that's one. The second to make IPOs great again is The second to make IPOs great again is The second to make IPOs great again is to focus on litigation and uh and so to focus on litigation and uh and so to focus on litigation and uh and so that is another thing that is a key uh that is another thing that is a key uh that is another thing that is a key uh inhibition I think for people to go from inhibition I think for people to go from inhibition I think for people to go from the private markets to public the the private markets to public the the private markets to public the threats of uh class action lawsuits and threats of uh class action lawsuits and threats of uh class action lawsuits and vexacious uh litigation with every dip vexacious uh litigation with every dip vexacious uh litigation with every dip in the um in the stocks. You have uh in the um in the stocks. You have uh in the um in the stocks. You have uh issues like mandatory arbitration, fee issues like mandatory arbitration, fee issues like mandatory arbitration, fee shifting, you know, loser pays, that shifting, you know, loser pays, that shifting, you know, loser pays, that sort of thing. Both of which Delaware sort of thing. Both of which Delaware sort of thing. Both of which Delaware has recently um outlawed for public has recently um outlawed for public has recently um outlawed for public companies. But there are other states companies. But there are other states companies. But there are other states out there. And then the third is the out there. And then the third is the out there. And then the third is the weaponization of corporate governance weaponization of corporate governance weaponization of corporate governance around shareholder proposals, that sort around shareholder proposals, that sort around shareholder proposals, that sort of thing. So it becomes a pain to deal of thing. So it becomes a pain to deal of thing. So it becomes a pain to deal with the annual general shareholder with the annual general shareholder with the annual general shareholder meeting and that sort of thing. So those meeting and that sort of thing. So those meeting and that sort of thing. So those three are maybe not the only three are maybe not the only three are maybe not the only inhibitions, but there are three key inhibitions, but there are three key inhibitions, but there are three key ones that I've heard over and over and ones that I've heard over and over and ones that I've heard over and over and over again over the last 30ome years over again over the last 30ome years over again over the last 30ome years from venture capitalists, private equity from venture capitalists, private equity from venture capitalists, private equity folks, investment bankers, lawyers, and folks, investment bankers, lawyers, and folks, investment bankers, lawyers, and etc. So, etc. So, etc. So, >> Mike, what are your top priorities for >> Mike, what are your top priorities for >> Mike, what are your top priorities for 2026 in the CFTC? 2026 in the CFTC? 2026 in the CFTC? >> Well, like Paul, I started off uh >> Well, like Paul, I started off uh >> Well, like Paul, I started off uh working in private practice at a law working in private practice at a law working in private practice at a law firm. And right around 2021, 2022, every firm. And right around 2021, 2022, every firm. And right around 2021, 2022, every week my clients would get a subpoena week my clients would get a subpoena week my clients would get a subpoena from Gary Gendler or from the CFTC uh from Gary Gendler or from the CFTC uh from Gary Gendler or from the CFTC uh and were faced with this onslaught of and were faced with this onslaught of and were faced with this onslaught of regulation by enforcement. They were regulation by enforcement. They were regulation by enforcement. They were faced with regulations that did not work faced with regulations that did not work faced with regulations that did not work for their business models. And these for their business models. And these for their business models. And these were crypto firms, prediction markets, were crypto firms, prediction markets, were crypto firms, prediction markets, artificial intelligence firms, as well artificial intelligence firms, as well artificial intelligence firms, as well as our traditional financial market as our traditional financial market as our traditional financial market participants. They were just participants. They were just participants. They were just relentlessly attacked by the the federal relentlessly attacked by the the federal relentlessly attacked by the the federal government under the prior government under the prior government under the prior administration. So I really came into administration. So I really came into administration. So I really came into government to help write the ship to government to help write the ship to government to help write the ship to help make sure that we have purpose fit help make sure that we have purpose fit help make sure that we have purpose fit rules and regulations for new innovative rules and regulations for new innovative rules and regulations for new innovative technologies and financial products. And technologies and financial products. And technologies and financial products. And so a big piece of my agenda has been so a big piece of my agenda has been so a big piece of my agenda has been crypto uh our crypto asset markets as as crypto uh our crypto asset markets as as crypto uh our crypto asset markets as as you all I'm sure are tracking. There's you all I'm sure are tracking. There's you all I'm sure are tracking. There's some legislation that we're really some legislation that we're really some legislation that we're really hopefully uh working with David Sachs to hopefully uh working with David Sachs to hopefully uh working with David Sachs to get across the finish line and the get across the finish line and the get across the finish line and the president. Um but but that's going to be president. Um but but that's going to be president. Um but but that's going to be a key piece. So the CFTC would uh have a a key piece. So the CFTC would uh have a a key piece. So the CFTC would uh have a broad amount of authority over the spot broad amount of authority over the spot broad amount of authority over the spot markets and we're getting ready to to markets and we're getting ready to to markets and we're getting ready to to implement those rules should the implement those rules should the implement those rules should the legislation get across the finish line. legislation get across the finish line. legislation get across the finish line. Another key piece of our agenda has also Another key piece of our agenda has also Another key piece of our agenda has also been modernizing and upgrading our rules been modernizing and upgrading our rules been modernizing and upgrading our rules and regulations for onchain software and regulations for onchain software and regulations for onchain software systems, blockchain networks, and other systems, blockchain networks, and other systems, blockchain networks, and other types of digital asset products types of digital asset products types of digital asset products regardless of legislation. It's really regardless of legislation. It's really regardless of legislation. It's really important that we have futureproof rules important that we have futureproof rules important that we have futureproof rules and regulations that are ready for the and regulations that are ready for the and regulations that are ready for the innovations of both today and tomorrow. innovations of both today and tomorrow. innovations of both today and tomorrow. And that's blockchain, but that's also And that's blockchain, but that's also And that's blockchain, but that's also artificial intelligence and and other uh artificial intelligence and and other uh artificial intelligence and and other uh areas of technology innovations. So areas of technology innovations. So areas of technology innovations. So there's a lot of things we need to there's a lot of things we need to there's a lot of things we need to change uh within our regulatory change uh within our regulatory change uh within our regulatory framework to make sure that we're ready framework to make sure that we're ready framework to make sure that we're ready to accommodate that. to accommodate that. to accommodate that. >> Let me ask both of you guys a question. >> Let me ask both of you guys a question. >> Let me ask both of you guys a question. So this sits at the intersection of So this sits at the intersection of So this sits at the intersection of tokenization, crypto and what I would tokenization, crypto and what I would tokenization, crypto and what I would call systemic risk. call systemic risk. call systemic risk. So if all if everything becomes So if all if everything becomes So if all if everything becomes tokenized and digitized and 24 by7, what tokenized and digitized and 24 by7, what tokenized and digitized and 24 by7, what do you think needs to happen to make do you think needs to happen to make do you think needs to happen to make sure that the systemic risks to the sure that the systemic risks to the sure that the systemic risks to the system are managed? And here's what I system are managed? And here's what I system are managed? And here's what I mean. If you go on X, I've gone down the mean. If you go on X, I've gone down the mean. If you go on X, I've gone down the automated trading rabbit hole. So, I automated trading rabbit hole. So, I automated trading rabbit hole. So, I don't know if you guys know, but there don't know if you guys know, but there don't know if you guys know, but there are these incredible young vibrant are these incredible young vibrant are these incredible young vibrant projects that are basically replacing a projects that are basically replacing a projects that are basically replacing a Citadel, replacing a Millennium, and Citadel, replacing a Millennium, and Citadel, replacing a Millennium, and they're building these automated they're building these automated they're building these automated agent-based hedge funds that are agent-based hedge funds that are agent-based hedge funds that are transacting across all kinds of markets transacting across all kinds of markets transacting across all kinds of markets all the time. And on the one hand, I'm all the time. And on the one hand, I'm all the time. And on the one hand, I'm completely attracted to it. I think it's completely attracted to it. I think it's completely attracted to it. I think it's totally democratic. It's the free totally democratic. It's the free totally democratic. It's the free market. It's like let's figure out market. It's like let's figure out market. It's like let's figure out what's going on there. And on the other what's going on there. And on the other what's going on there. And on the other hand, I ask myself the question, where's hand, I ask myself the question, where's hand, I ask myself the question, where's the kill switch or where's the circuit the kill switch or where's the circuit the kill switch or where's the circuit breaker, if you will. And I just want to breaker, if you will. And I just want to breaker, if you will. And I just want to give you both a chance to talk about how give you both a chance to talk about how give you both a chance to talk about how you see these markets converge and both you see these markets converge and both you see these markets converge and both the positives and the negatives of it. the positives and the negatives of it. the positives and the negatives of it. >> Absolutely. we need to be considering >> Absolutely. we need to be considering >> Absolutely. we need to be considering these risks as we're developing rules these risks as we're developing rules these risks as we're developing rules and and this to me is is the whole and and this to me is is the whole and and this to me is is the whole reason we need to have a purposefitit reason we need to have a purposefitit reason we need to have a purposefitit regulatory framework for these products regulatory framework for these products regulatory framework for these products and and autonomous agents and all of and and autonomous agents and all of and and autonomous agents and all of that. Uh up until now I think the that. Uh up until now I think the that. Uh up until now I think the approach has always been let's apply the approach has always been let's apply the approach has always been let's apply the old rules and regulations and and that's old rules and regulations and and that's old rules and regulations and and that's going to work out and make sure that uh going to work out and make sure that uh going to work out and make sure that uh nobody can actually innovate and create nobody can actually innovate and create nobody can actually innovate and create something new. So we are embracing these something new. So we are embracing these something new. So we are embracing these opportunities in the markets. we need to opportunities in the markets. we need to opportunities in the markets. we need to study them and make sure that we study them and make sure that we study them and make sure that we understand the risks. Uh but we can understand the risks. Uh but we can understand the risks. Uh but we can develop rules that accommodate that. So develop rules that accommodate that. So develop rules that accommodate that. So having a regime in place that says go having a regime in place that says go having a regime in place that says go build don't ask us for permission but we build don't ask us for permission but we build don't ask us for permission but we need to study that work with the market need to study that work with the market need to study that work with the market participants understand the risks and on participants understand the risks and on participants understand the risks and on our end we need to set up guard rails. our end we need to set up guard rails. our end we need to set up guard rails. So I do think there are unique uh risks So I do think there are unique uh risks So I do think there are unique uh risks when you have the ability for an agent when you have the ability for an agent when you have the ability for an agent to go out and deploy capital on on to go out and deploy capital on on to go out and deploy capital on on basically an autonomous basis. uh and basically an autonomous basis. uh and basically an autonomous basis. uh and and that's going to be something that and that's going to be something that and that's going to be something that our markets we've really really never our markets we've really really never our markets we've really really never seen before as regulators. But that seen before as regulators. But that seen before as regulators. But that doesn't mean we have to stand in the way doesn't mean we have to stand in the way doesn't mean we have to stand in the way and block it. I I think we need to and block it. I I think we need to and block it. I I think we need to really understand the risks, make sure really understand the risks, make sure really understand the risks, make sure that we have the right guard rails, that we have the right guard rails, that we have the right guard rails, whether that is us operating nodes on whether that is us operating nodes on whether that is us operating nodes on blockchains or or really having blockchains or or really having blockchains or or really having technologists that are studying the technologists that are studying the technologists that are studying the contracts and the code. Uh but I don't contracts and the code. Uh but I don't contracts and the code. Uh but I don't think there's any reason we can't have think there's any reason we can't have think there's any reason we can't have these technologies built here in these technologies built here in these technologies built here in America. America. America. >> I agree with that. And from uh from my >> I agree with that. And from uh from my >> I agree with that. And from uh from my point of view, there's so many benefits point of view, there's so many benefits point of view, there's so many benefits to come from distributed ledger ledger to come from distributed ledger ledger to come from distributed ledger ledger technology for the financial services technology for the financial services technology for the financial services industry where we're right at the cusp industry where we're right at the cusp industry where we're right at the cusp of achieving uh T0 basically you know of achieving uh T0 basically you know of achieving uh T0 basically you know immediate delivery versus payment, immediate delivery versus payment, immediate delivery versus payment, receipt versus payment onchain by uh you receipt versus payment onchain by uh you receipt versus payment onchain by uh you know digital assets and uh so that's know digital assets and uh so that's know digital assets and uh so that's pretty exciting. uh what we may even pretty exciting. uh what we may even pretty exciting. uh what we may even have to build in speed bumps uh you know have to build in speed bumps uh you know have to build in speed bumps uh you know to prevent fraud and and things like to prevent fraud and and things like to prevent fraud and and things like that but for many and for some that but for many and for some that but for many and for some instruments it might not be possible but instruments it might not be possible but instruments it might not be possible but your discussion there 24/7 and all that your discussion there 24/7 and all that your discussion there 24/7 and all that I think is is really an exciting uh I think is is really an exciting uh I think is is really an exciting uh prospect but there are challenges from prospect but there are challenges from prospect but there are challenges from uh you know the liquidity perspective uh uh you know the liquidity perspective uh uh you know the liquidity perspective uh you know having a you know the whole you know having a you know the whole you know having a you know the whole concept of best bid and offer what does concept of best bid and offer what does concept of best bid and offer what does that mean uh so uh you know that's one that mean uh so uh you know that's one that mean uh so uh you know that's one that uh we we will be wrestling with But that uh we we will be wrestling with But that uh we we will be wrestling with But ultimately, at least our approaches and ultimately, at least our approaches and ultimately, at least our approaches and and uh what uh Mike and I are striving and uh what uh Mike and I are striving and uh what uh Mike and I are striving to do in harmonizing the approach of our to do in harmonizing the approach of our to do in harmonizing the approach of our two agencies is to and hopefully we'll two agencies is to and hopefully we'll two agencies is to and hopefully we'll get a a statute out of the whole Clarity get a a statute out of the whole Clarity get a a statute out of the whole Clarity Act uh um uh discussions going on in the Act uh um uh discussions going on in the Act uh um uh discussions going on in the Hill right now. That's really necessary Hill right now. That's really necessary Hill right now. That's really necessary to future proof what we're doing so to future proof what we're doing so to future proof what we're doing so there is no backsliding in the future. there is no backsliding in the future. there is no backsliding in the future. But we knew to focus on you know if it's But we knew to focus on you know if it's But we knew to focus on you know if it's a security underneath and it's tokenized a security underneath and it's tokenized a security underneath and it's tokenized it still is a security and it still the it still is a security and it still the it still is a security and it still the securities laws still apply but it's up securities laws still apply but it's up securities laws still apply but it's up to us to make sure that uh our rules are to us to make sure that uh our rules are to us to make sure that uh our rules are fit for purpose and as the whole purpose fit for purpose and as the whole purpose fit for purpose and as the whole purpose changes and as the the delivery changes and as the the delivery changes and as the the delivery mechanism changes we need to accommodate mechanism changes we need to accommodate mechanism changes we need to accommodate that. Unfortunately, in the previous that. Unfortunately, in the previous that. Unfortunately, in the previous administration, you know, was said, "Oh, administration, you know, was said, "Oh, administration, you know, was said, "Oh, come in and talk to us. You know, we come in and talk to us. You know, we come in and talk to us. You know, we have a simple form for you to fill out. have a simple form for you to fill out. have a simple form for you to fill out. It's on our website." Well, haha. It's It's on our website." Well, haha. It's It's on our website." Well, haha. It's called an S1. And it takes lots of called an S1. And it takes lots of called an S1. And it takes lots of lawyers and accountants to try to figure lawyers and accountants to try to figure lawyers and accountants to try to figure figure out how to do it for an existing figure out how to do it for an existing figure out how to do it for an existing company, much less for a new digital company, much less for a new digital company, much less for a new digital asset, a crypto sort of asset that uh asset, a crypto sort of asset that uh asset, a crypto sort of asset that uh you know, where the form is completely you know, where the form is completely you know, where the form is completely opposite. There's no board of directors. opposite. There's no board of directors. opposite. There's no board of directors. there are no offices around the country there are no offices around the country there are no offices around the country around the world or whatever. It's uh around the world or whatever. It's uh around the world or whatever. It's uh you know just the thing needs to be you know just the thing needs to be you know just the thing needs to be adjusted uh so that it is fit for adjusted uh so that it is fit for adjusted uh so that it is fit for purpose. So that's what we're striving purpose. So that's what we're striving purpose. So that's what we're striving to do going through our rule book to to do going through our rule book to to do going through our rule book to make sure it it can accommodate the new make sure it it can accommodate the new make sure it it can accommodate the new technologies. technologies. technologies. >> So let's build on Chimath's conversation >> So let's build on Chimath's conversation >> So let's build on Chimath's conversation here and his points. One of the key uh here and his points. One of the key uh here and his points. One of the key uh dangers and innovations opportunities in dangers and innovations opportunities in dangers and innovations opportunities in the market is leverage and we see it the market is leverage and we see it the market is leverage and we see it obviously hedge funds have been doing obviously hedge funds have been doing obviously hedge funds have been doing this for a long time. We're starting to this for a long time. We're starting to this for a long time. We're starting to see it in prediction markets, Mike, and see it in prediction markets, Mike, and see it in prediction markets, Mike, and we're seeing it in crypto. we're seeing it in crypto. we're seeing it in crypto. What is the proper amount of leverage What is the proper amount of leverage What is the proper amount of leverage and who should set those rules? and who should set those rules? and who should set those rules? Obviously, you have Congress making Obviously, you have Congress making Obviously, you have Congress making laws. You're responsible for executing laws. You're responsible for executing laws. You're responsible for executing them, chairman, in order to make sure them, chairman, in order to make sure them, chairman, in order to make sure the markets are orderly uh and that you the markets are orderly uh and that you the markets are orderly uh and that you protect investors. So just walk us protect investors. So just walk us protect investors. So just walk us through what you think is the proper through what you think is the proper through what you think is the proper amount of leverage and your framework amount of leverage and your framework amount of leverage and your framework and and you've been at this for a while and and you've been at this for a while and and you've been at this for a while as we mentioned. How has that changed as we mentioned. How has that changed as we mentioned. How has that changed over time? Educate us a bit on how we over time? Educate us a bit on how we over time? Educate us a bit on how we got to a world in which Bitcoin got to a world in which Bitcoin got to a world in which Bitcoin investors might be 100x or 50x and investors might be 100x or 50x and investors might be 100x or 50x and people might be leveraging their people might be leveraging their people might be leveraging their prediction market and seems like it has prediction market and seems like it has prediction market and seems like it has a function but it also seems like almost a function but it also seems like almost a function but it also seems like almost every story starts and ends with every story starts and ends with every story starts and ends with leverage. leverage. leverage. >> Right. Well, so I think it depends on >> Right. Well, so I think it depends on >> Right. Well, so I think it depends on the marketplace and and on the type the marketplace and and on the type the marketplace and and on the type because obviously you have banks and because obviously you have banks and because obviously you have banks and they're all about fractional uh deposits they're all about fractional uh deposits they're all about fractional uh deposits and and all of that and and lending. Um and and all of that and and lending. Um and and all of that and and lending. Um so uh you know so we we've gone through so uh you know so we we've gone through so uh you know so we we've gone through that back in 2008 and 2009 and the that back in 2008 and 2009 and the that back in 2008 and 2009 and the financial crisis and going all the way financial crisis and going all the way financial crisis and going all the way back to 1929 and then even in the 1800s back to 1929 and then even in the 1800s back to 1929 and then even in the 1800s obviously all the repeated problems with obviously all the repeated problems with obviously all the repeated problems with um you know financial disruption and um you know financial disruption and um you know financial disruption and financial markets. So we have to be financial markets. So we have to be financial markets. So we have to be careful about that. There are all sorts careful about that. There are all sorts careful about that. There are all sorts of rules for broker dealers, for banks, of rules for broker dealers, for banks, of rules for broker dealers, for banks, for in the futures markets for margin for in the futures markets for margin for in the futures markets for margin and all of that to um like put a lid on and all of that to um like put a lid on and all of that to um like put a lid on some of this and to have some controls some of this and to have some controls some of this and to have some controls around it and and transparency, you around it and and transparency, you around it and and transparency, you know, in the futures markets the the uh know, in the futures markets the the uh know, in the futures markets the the uh the the exchanges have a lot of power, the the exchanges have a lot of power, the the exchanges have a lot of power, you know, over their members and over you know, over their members and over you know, over their members and over margin and, you know, closing things margin and, you know, closing things margin and, you know, closing things down. We saw that even in the COVID time down. We saw that even in the COVID time down. We saw that even in the COVID time and and whatnot when the markets got and and whatnot when the markets got and and whatnot when the markets got hairy there. So um you know those things hairy there. So um you know those things hairy there. So um you know those things are constantly looked at. The Fed plays are constantly looked at. The Fed plays are constantly looked at. The Fed plays a role as well um you know with a role as well um you know with a role as well um you know with margining and the securities market. So margining and the securities market. So margining and the securities market. So all that uh has to be adjusted and now all that uh has to be adjusted and now all that uh has to be adjusted and now we need to look carefully at these new we need to look carefully at these new we need to look carefully at these new markets and then see what's analogous markets and then see what's analogous markets and then see what's analogous and see what authority we have and uh and see what authority we have and uh and see what authority we have and uh and then make sure that you know we're and then make sure that you know we're and then make sure that you know we're not killing uh trading. But we also have not killing uh trading. But we also have not killing uh trading. But we also have to keep an eye out for the future to to keep an eye out for the future to to keep an eye out for the future to make sure that we're not allowing things make sure that we're not allowing things make sure that we're not allowing things to then blow up in our face. to then blow up in our face. to then blow up in our face. >> Here's a question that may sound dumb, >> Here's a question that may sound dumb, >> Here's a question that may sound dumb, so I apologize if it does, and this is so I apologize if it does, and this is so I apologize if it does, and this is to both of you. I think a lot of people to both of you. I think a lot of people to both of you. I think a lot of people don't understand, or at least I don't, don't understand, or at least I don't, don't understand, or at least I don't, where the SEC and the CFDC cooperate where the SEC and the CFDC cooperate where the SEC and the CFDC cooperate most effectively, but then as with all most effectively, but then as with all most effectively, but then as with all things, where does coordination maybe things, where does coordination maybe things, where does coordination maybe break down? Could you just explain that break down? Could you just explain that break down? Could you just explain that to people so that we understand and to people so that we understand and to people so that we understand and level set about what the expectations of level set about what the expectations of level set about what the expectations of each organization are and how you guys each organization are and how you guys each organization are and how you guys actually work together day-to-day when actually work together day-to-day when actually work together day-to-day when you have to? you have to? you have to? >> Having been around the two agencies now >> Having been around the two agencies now >> Having been around the two agencies now for 30ome years um I can really say that for 30ome years um I can really say that for 30ome years um I can really say that unfortunately the two um and not unfortunately the two um and not unfortunately the two um and not necessarily at the commissioner level necessarily at the commissioner level necessarily at the commissioner level but uh certainly at the staff there was but uh certainly at the staff there was but uh certainly at the staff there was a lot of sniping uh you know back and a lot of sniping uh you know back and a lot of sniping uh you know back and forth. So, I compare it to two uh forth. So, I compare it to two uh forth. So, I compare it to two uh fortresses with no man's land in fortresses with no man's land in fortresses with no man's land in between. And so, the no man's land is between. And so, the no man's land is between. And so, the no man's land is littered with the bodies of wouldbe littered with the bodies of wouldbe littered with the bodies of wouldbe products that people were unsure like is products that people were unsure like is products that people were unsure like is it CFTC, is it SEC? And the crossfire it CFTC, is it SEC? And the crossfire it CFTC, is it SEC? And the crossfire between the two just killed the between the two just killed the between the two just killed the products. They never went to market. products. They never went to market. products. They never went to market. Single stock futures, portfolio Single stock futures, portfolio Single stock futures, portfolio margining, which has so much uh margining, which has so much uh margining, which has so much uh potential benefits for um making the potential benefits for um making the potential benefits for um making the financial market safer and more financial market safer and more financial market safer and more efficient. But Mike and I are setting efficient. But Mike and I are setting efficient. But Mike and I are setting out to change that and I'll let you uh out to change that and I'll let you uh out to change that and I'll let you uh go forth on that one, Mike. go forth on that one, Mike. go forth on that one, Mike. >> Absolutely. The the two agencies have >> Absolutely. The the two agencies have >> Absolutely. The the two agencies have unfortunately rarely worked well unfortunately rarely worked well unfortunately rarely worked well together and what we're really uh moving together and what we're really uh moving together and what we're really uh moving uh forward in a new direction with our uh forward in a new direction with our uh forward in a new direction with our harmonization efforts. We have a harmonization efforts. We have a harmonization efforts. We have a memorandum of understanding that the two memorandum of understanding that the two memorandum of understanding that the two agencies are working on hammering out agencies are working on hammering out agencies are working on hammering out and getting in place that will allow us and getting in place that will allow us and getting in place that will allow us to share information, coordinate on to share information, coordinate on to share information, coordinate on specific issues, and make sure that we specific issues, and make sure that we specific issues, and make sure that we don't have this turf battle between the don't have this turf battle between the don't have this turf battle between the two agencies going forward. And part of two agencies going forward. And part of two agencies going forward. And part of that starts, of course, at the top. that starts, of course, at the top. that starts, of course, at the top. Chairman Hackkins and I work very Chairman Hackkins and I work very Chairman Hackkins and I work very closely together to make sure that we're closely together to make sure that we're closely together to make sure that we're coordinated on policy, but also at the coordinated on policy, but also at the coordinated on policy, but also at the staff level. So when exchanges and staff level. So when exchanges and staff level. So when exchanges and brokers and market participants are brokers and market participants are brokers and market participants are coming in to register or to offer new coming in to register or to offer new coming in to register or to offer new product, we need to make sure that product, we need to make sure that product, we need to make sure that there's not this fighting over where there's not this fighting over where there's not this fighting over where they're supposed to be registered and they're supposed to be registered and they're supposed to be registered and what they're able to offer. Some of what they're able to offer. Some of what they're able to offer. Some of these products across jurisdictions. A these products across jurisdictions. A these products across jurisdictions. A great example are some of the prediction great example are some of the prediction great example are some of the prediction markets products. Some of them involve markets products. Some of them involve markets products. Some of them involve public companies and securities and public companies and securities and public companies and securities and others are related to things like sports others are related to things like sports others are related to things like sports and politics and that crosses and politics and that crosses and politics and that crosses jurisdictions. So we need to make sure jurisdictions. So we need to make sure jurisdictions. So we need to make sure that we have clear lines and that our that we have clear lines and that our that we have clear lines and that our market participants aren't subject to market participants aren't subject to market participants aren't subject to duplicative regulatory frameworks. and duplicative regulatory frameworks. and duplicative regulatory frameworks. and Chairman Atkins and I have talked about Chairman Atkins and I have talked about Chairman Atkins and I have talked about substituted compliance regimes where you substituted compliance regimes where you substituted compliance regimes where you have a primary regulator at the SEC or have a primary regulator at the SEC or have a primary regulator at the SEC or the CFTC, but we work together to figure the CFTC, but we work together to figure the CFTC, but we work together to figure out the cross jurisdictional products so out the cross jurisdictional products so out the cross jurisdictional products so that you don't get stuck with that you don't get stuck with that you don't get stuck with duplicative regulation registration. duplicative regulation registration. duplicative regulation registration. Another area is crypto where we've got Another area is crypto where we've got Another area is crypto where we've got blockchain networks, we've got smart blockchain networks, we've got smart blockchain networks, we've got smart contracts, we've got protocols that have contracts, we've got protocols that have contracts, we've got protocols that have both securities and non-securities both securities and non-securities both securities and non-securities trading on them crossjurisdictionally trading on them crossjurisdictionally trading on them crossjurisdictionally and and we need to make sure that the and and we need to make sure that the and and we need to make sure that the standards are consistent because it standards are consistent because it standards are consistent because it won't work if we've got one blockchain won't work if we've got one blockchain won't work if we've got one blockchain for securities and another blockchain for securities and another blockchain for securities and another blockchain for commodities and nothing in between. for commodities and nothing in between. for commodities and nothing in between. So I think this is really critical that So I think this is really critical that So I think this is really critical that the agencies bury the hatchet and move the agencies bury the hatchet and move the agencies bury the hatchet and move forward with a harmonized and forward with a harmonized and forward with a harmonized and coordinated approach coordinated approach coordinated approach >> as we look towards the future. I mean to >> as we look towards the future. I mean to >> as we look towards the future. I mean to build on yeah there are two separate build on yeah there are two separate build on yeah there are two separate regimes and and there are differences in regimes and and there are differences in regimes and and there are differences in approaches uh based on the statutes that approaches uh based on the statutes that approaches uh based on the statutes that govern us but uh we also and speaking govern us but uh we also and speaking govern us but uh we also and speaking for the SEC we have a lot of uh uh for the SEC we have a lot of uh uh for the SEC we have a lot of uh uh flexibility with respect to exemptive flexibility with respect to exemptive flexibility with respect to exemptive authority and whatnot. So my dream is authority and whatnot. So my dream is authority and whatnot. So my dream is one day that and I hope we can achieve one day that and I hope we can achieve one day that and I hope we can achieve that here in the next couple years to that here in the next couple years to that here in the next couple years to have like a super approach where you have like a super approach where you have like a super approach where you know there is okay blurred lines between know there is okay blurred lines between know there is okay blurred lines between the two but we've coordinated our the two but we've coordinated our the two but we've coordinated our approach we've coordinated uh you know approach we've coordinated uh you know approach we've coordinated uh you know to reduce the friction between dually to reduce the friction between dually to reduce the friction between dually registered companies and and to make registered companies and and to make registered companies and and to make everything work very efficiently. everything work very efficiently. everything work very efficiently. >> I want to ask a question around >> I want to ask a question around >> I want to ask a question around prediction markets. Let me try to set prediction markets. Let me try to set prediction markets. Let me try to set this up the way that I think about it. this up the way that I think about it. this up the way that I think about it. So I think that there is this So I think that there is this So I think that there is this inexurable tension that's always existed inexurable tension that's always existed inexurable tension that's always existed and will always exist between the and will always exist between the and will always exist between the investor protection that has to happen investor protection that has to happen investor protection that has to happen when you have publicly traded securities when you have publicly traded securities when you have publicly traded securities or commodities or derivatives but then or commodities or derivatives but then or commodities or derivatives but then the capital formation process that on the capital formation process that on the capital formation process that on behalf of the company or whatever that behalf of the company or whatever that behalf of the company or whatever that wants to get access to this and there's wants to get access to this and there's wants to get access to this and there's always been this kind of back and forth always been this kind of back and forth always been this kind of back and forth tension. The best example of this is tension. The best example of this is tension. The best example of this is REGG FD where we said at some point, REGG FD where we said at some point, REGG FD where we said at some point, hey, let's hold the trains. If one hey, let's hold the trains. If one hey, let's hold the trains. If one person knows something, every person person knows something, every person person knows something, every person needs to know that thing. Makes a ton of needs to know that thing. Makes a ton of needs to know that thing. Makes a ton of sense. When you get into prediction sense. When you get into prediction sense. When you get into prediction markets, I think that this is going to markets, I think that this is going to markets, I think that this is going to stress test this assumption to the nth stress test this assumption to the nth stress test this assumption to the nth degree. And the reason is that there are degree. And the reason is that there are degree. And the reason is that there are just certain things that some people just certain things that some people just certain things that some people know, and we see it now. Every other day know, and we see it now. Every other day know, and we see it now. Every other day there's an article about some prediction there's an article about some prediction there's an article about some prediction market that turned out to be right or a market that turned out to be right or a market that turned out to be right or a bunch of other markets that were almost bunch of other markets that were almost bunch of other markets that were almost manipulated. It seems like it's ripe for manipulated. It seems like it's ripe for manipulated. It seems like it's ripe for this question to come up all over again. this question to come up all over again. this question to come up all over again. The correlary to this is Brian Armstrong The correlary to this is Brian Armstrong The correlary to this is Brian Armstrong tweeted something which I thought was tweeted something which I thought was tweeted something which I thought was quite an interesting comment about quite an interesting comment about quite an interesting comment about prediction markets which is that certain prediction markets which is that certain prediction markets which is that certain prediction markets only thrive on prediction markets only thrive on prediction markets only thrive on insider information which is to say that insider information which is to say that insider information which is to say that they know a secret and so that's how the they know a secret and so that's how the they know a secret and so that's how the market can exist and actually conform to market can exist and actually conform to market can exist and actually conform to an outcome and that creates these two an outcome and that creates these two an outcome and that creates these two sides. I just want to get your thoughts sides. I just want to get your thoughts sides. I just want to get your thoughts on prediction markets. What role do they on prediction markets. What role do they on prediction markets. What role do they play? How do we balance the capital play? How do we balance the capital play? How do we balance the capital formation that the market creates versus formation that the market creates versus formation that the market creates versus the investor protection, the insider the investor protection, the insider the investor protection, the insider trading that may be happening? It's a trading that may be happening? It's a trading that may be happening? It's a very complicated space. I'm not going to very complicated space. I'm not going to very complicated space. I'm not going to hold you to any of it. I just want to hold you to any of it. I just want to hold you to any of it. I just want to think out loud. think out loud. think out loud. >> Well, these markets aren't new. We've >> Well, these markets aren't new. We've >> Well, these markets aren't new. We've had them since the '9s. They started off had them since the '9s. They started off had them since the '9s. They started off with the electronic market in Iowa where with the electronic market in Iowa where with the electronic market in Iowa where folks were predicting the political folks were predicting the political folks were predicting the political outcomes on elections. We've been outcomes on elections. We've been outcomes on elections. We've been surveilling and monitoring and and surveilling and monitoring and and surveilling and monitoring and and policing fraud and manipulation in these policing fraud and manipulation in these policing fraud and manipulation in these markets for a very long time. And to the markets for a very long time. And to the markets for a very long time. And to the extent that there are contracts in extent that there are contracts in extent that there are contracts in certain markets, for example, what color certain markets, for example, what color certain markets, for example, what color Gatorade's going to be, you know, dunked Gatorade's going to be, you know, dunked Gatorade's going to be, you know, dunked on the the coach at the Super Bowl, some on the the coach at the Super Bowl, some on the the coach at the Super Bowl, some of this stuff is potentially at risk of of this stuff is potentially at risk of of this stuff is potentially at risk of being manipulated. And there's a risk being manipulated. And there's a risk being manipulated. And there's a risk that somebody on the team is able to go that somebody on the team is able to go that somebody on the team is able to go trade because they have special trade because they have special trade because they have special information about the Gatorade they put information about the Gatorade they put information about the Gatorade they put in the cooler. We have standards to make in the cooler. We have standards to make in the cooler. We have standards to make sure that those contracts should not be sure that those contracts should not be sure that those contracts should not be listed and and it's on the exchanges as listed and and it's on the exchanges as listed and and it's on the exchanges as the first line of defense as the first line of defense as the first line of defense as self-regulatory organizations to self-regulatory organizations to self-regulatory organizations to evaluate each contract and certify to us evaluate each contract and certify to us evaluate each contract and certify to us the regulator the CFTC that those the regulator the CFTC that those the regulator the CFTC that those contracts are not readily susceptible to contracts are not readily susceptible to contracts are not readily susceptible to insider trading manipulation fraud and insider trading manipulation fraud and insider trading manipulation fraud and the like. And we saw actually recently the like. And we saw actually recently the like. And we saw actually recently uh KHI one of the the prediction markets uh KHI one of the the prediction markets uh KHI one of the the prediction markets brought two enforcement actions against brought two enforcement actions against brought two enforcement actions against participants. One involved a contract uh participants. One involved a contract uh participants. One involved a contract uh related to Mr. Beast's YouTube channel related to Mr. Beast's YouTube channel related to Mr. Beast's YouTube channel where one of his employees insider where one of his employees insider where one of his employees insider traded based on information of when a traded based on information of when a traded based on information of when a video was going to launch or what was in video was going to launch or what was in video was going to launch or what was in the video and the same sort of authority the video and the same sort of authority the video and the same sort of authority that you have at the SEC around a duty that you have at the SEC around a duty that you have at the SEC around a duty of of uh you know care to your uh of of uh you know care to your uh of of uh you know care to your uh employer is prevalent in our markets. So employer is prevalent in our markets. So employer is prevalent in our markets. So to the extent somebody insider trades on to the extent somebody insider trades on to the extent somebody insider trades on information, we police that and and it's information, we police that and and it's information, we police that and and it's really important for folks to know it's really important for folks to know it's really important for folks to know it's it's not just securities insider it's not just securities insider it's not just securities insider trading, we've got it in the commodities trading, we've got it in the commodities trading, we've got it in the commodities world as well. And the exchanges are world as well. And the exchanges are world as well. And the exchanges are policing that, we're policing that. And policing that, we're policing that. And policing that, we're policing that. And to the extent folks are listing to the extent folks are listing to the extent folks are listing contracts that are susceptible to contracts that are susceptible to contracts that are susceptible to manipulation, there's consequences to manipulation, there's consequences to manipulation, there's consequences to that. We can reject those contracts or that. We can reject those contracts or that. We can reject those contracts or we can police fraud on the back end. But we can police fraud on the back end. But we can police fraud on the back end. But there is a cop on the beat there. And I there is a cop on the beat there. And I there is a cop on the beat there. And I I do want to caution that insider I do want to caution that insider I do want to caution that insider trading is is uh is not something that's trading is is uh is not something that's trading is is uh is not something that's necessarily allowed in our markets, but necessarily allowed in our markets, but necessarily allowed in our markets, but we do believe that markets are truth we do believe that markets are truth we do believe that markets are truth machines that they do create a really machines that they do create a really machines that they do create a really powerful source of information. We've powerful source of information. We've powerful source of information. We've seen the hoaxes, the fake news, and the seen the hoaxes, the fake news, and the seen the hoaxes, the fake news, and the manipulation of the polls. The prior manipulation of the polls. The prior manipulation of the polls. The prior administration tried to ban these administration tried to ban these administration tried to ban these markets ahead of the 2024 election, and markets ahead of the 2024 election, and markets ahead of the 2024 election, and they really increased turnout. It showed they really increased turnout. It showed they really increased turnout. It showed that they were correct when a bunch of that they were correct when a bunch of that they were correct when a bunch of the fake polls were put out right ahead the fake polls were put out right ahead the fake polls were put out right ahead of the election. So, we really have to of the election. So, we really have to of the election. So, we really have to foster these markets here in the United foster these markets here in the United foster these markets here in the United States and make sure that they don't uh States and make sure that they don't uh States and make sure that they don't uh flourish in Russia or somewhere else flourish in Russia or somewhere else flourish in Russia or somewhere else where they really will turn out to be a where they really will turn out to be a where they really will turn out to be a source of disinformation. So, we do source of disinformation. So, we do source of disinformation. So, we do believe it's valuable to have that uh believe it's valuable to have that uh believe it's valuable to have that uh trading and information flowing through trading and information flowing through trading and information flowing through the markets, but insider trading is is the markets, but insider trading is is the markets, but insider trading is is still uh still illegal here in the US. still uh still illegal here in the US. still uh still illegal here in the US. >> Take us through some examples there, >> Take us through some examples there, >> Take us through some examples there, Mike. Like it's very obvious and clear Mike. Like it's very obvious and clear Mike. Like it's very obvious and clear to people who work at Microsoft. If some to people who work at Microsoft. If some to people who work at Microsoft. If some new version of software is coming out or new version of software is coming out or new version of software is coming out or the sales are dynamic and the numbers the sales are dynamic and the numbers the sales are dynamic and the numbers haven't been released, obviously you haven't been released, obviously you haven't been released, obviously you can't trade on that. You're going to can't trade on that. You're going to can't trade on that. You're going to jail. It's insider trading. If I am a jail. It's insider trading. If I am a jail. It's insider trading. If I am a reseller of Microsoft software or a reseller of Microsoft software or a reseller of Microsoft software or a friend of mine works at Microsoft and friend of mine works at Microsoft and friend of mine works at Microsoft and says, "Hey, things are going great with says, "Hey, things are going great with says, "Hey, things are going great with this new product we have." And I make a this new product we have." And I make a this new product we have." And I make a thoughtful, you know, uh, wager on a thoughtful, you know, uh, wager on a thoughtful, you know, uh, wager on a prediction market. or if I intentionally prediction market. or if I intentionally prediction market. or if I intentionally do something like I'm a streaker at the do something like I'm a streaker at the do something like I'm a streaker at the Super Bowl was one that came up recently Super Bowl was one that came up recently Super Bowl was one that came up recently and I actually am the streaker. Not that and I actually am the streaker. Not that and I actually am the streaker. Not that I'm planning any of this to make the I'm planning any of this to make the I'm planning any of this to make the bet. bet. bet. >> Where are those rules? Where do they >> Where are those rules? Where do they >> Where are those rules? Where do they live? And who's responsible? Is it the live? And who's responsible? Is it the live? And who's responsible? Is it the prediction market? Is it you? Or is it prediction market? Is it you? Or is it prediction market? Is it you? Or is it TBD? Because it does seem that there's a TBD? Because it does seem that there's a TBD? Because it does seem that there's a bit of gray area as Chimath was sort of bit of gray area as Chimath was sort of bit of gray area as Chimath was sort of alluding to here. And and does this need alluding to here. And and does this need alluding to here. And and does this need to be codified and does need to be a bit to be codified and does need to be a bit to be codified and does need to be a bit more education for the public on it? A more education for the public on it? A more education for the public on it? A lot of the gray started off with the lot of the gray started off with the lot of the gray started off with the prior administration really trying to prior administration really trying to prior administration really trying to ban these markets and not facilitating ban these markets and not facilitating ban these markets and not facilitating proper rulemaking and guidance in the proper rulemaking and guidance in the proper rulemaking and guidance in the markets. Over the past year, you know, markets. Over the past year, you know, markets. Over the past year, you know, I've been in the the office for a couple I've been in the the office for a couple I've been in the the office for a couple months now. For the past year, under the months now. For the past year, under the months now. For the past year, under the acting chairman's leadership, a lot of acting chairman's leadership, a lot of acting chairman's leadership, a lot of these products have really exploded in these products have really exploded in these products have really exploded in popularity. And so now is the time to popularity. And so now is the time to popularity. And so now is the time to put out guidance and make sure that put out guidance and make sure that put out guidance and make sure that we're not regulating by enforcement as we're not regulating by enforcement as we're not regulating by enforcement as the prior administration did. But we are the prior administration did. But we are the prior administration did. But we are setting standards. We are making clear setting standards. We are making clear setting standards. We are making clear what our statute says and that is that what our statute says and that is that what our statute says and that is that these contracts cannot be listed if these contracts cannot be listed if these contracts cannot be listed if they're susceptible to manipulation and they're susceptible to manipulation and they're susceptible to manipulation and we take that very seriously. we take that very seriously. we take that very seriously. >> Standard. >> Standard. >> Standard. >> Yeah. Yeah. So the exchanges are >> Yeah. Yeah. So the exchanges are >> Yeah. Yeah. So the exchanges are responsible for policing that and responsible for policing that and responsible for policing that and reviewing the contracts and they certify reviewing the contracts and they certify reviewing the contracts and they certify to us the regulator that they are free to us the regulator that they are free to us the regulator that they are free of the risk of manipulation and if of the risk of manipulation and if of the risk of manipulation and if there's manipulation the markets we're there's manipulation the markets we're there's manipulation the markets we're policing that the exchanges are policing policing that the exchanges are policing policing that the exchanges are policing that. So there are controls in place, that. So there are controls in place, that. So there are controls in place, but a lot of these questions as to but a lot of these questions as to but a lot of these questions as to what's susceptible to manipulation are what's susceptible to manipulation are what's susceptible to manipulation are are up for debate. And I think there's are up for debate. And I think there's are up for debate. And I think there's some risk. There's uh possibility, you some risk. There's uh possibility, you some risk. There's uh possibility, you know, your example with the streaker if know, your example with the streaker if know, your example with the streaker if somebody can just jump out of the stands somebody can just jump out of the stands somebody can just jump out of the stands and go streak across and uh collect on and go streak across and uh collect on and go streak across and uh collect on the contract. I mean, that's something the contract. I mean, that's something the contract. I mean, that's something that does seem potentially at risk of that does seem potentially at risk of that does seem potentially at risk of manipulation and and fraud. And so we manipulation and and fraud. And so we manipulation and and fraud. And so we need to be careful about that. The need to be careful about that. The need to be careful about that. The exchanges need to be on the lookout for exchanges need to be on the lookout for exchanges need to be on the lookout for that. And if they're not, you know, that. And if they're not, you know, that. And if they're not, you know, there's consequences with us as a there's consequences with us as a there's consequences with us as a regulator. regulator. regulator. >> The markets should take the first step >> The markets should take the first step >> The markets should take the first step and make sure they're thoughtful about and make sure they're thoughtful about and make sure they're thoughtful about which ones to fire up to begin with. And which ones to fire up to begin with. And which ones to fire up to begin with. And we have seen that they are not saying, we have seen that they are not saying, we have seen that they are not saying, "Hey, this dictator is uh executed." "Hey, this dictator is uh executed." "Hey, this dictator is uh executed." They're saying, "This dictator is They're saying, "This dictator is They're saying, "This dictator is deposed or is no longer in power." That deposed or is no longer in power." That deposed or is no longer in power." That seems to be a very uh tricky one as seems to be a very uh tricky one as seems to be a very uh tricky one as well. Yes, Mike. well. Yes, Mike. well. Yes, Mike. >> Well, there's got to be integrity in the >> Well, there's got to be integrity in the >> Well, there's got to be integrity in the contracts. Our rules require that the contracts. Our rules require that the contracts. Our rules require that the contracts have, for example, certain contracts have, for example, certain contracts have, for example, certain fungeability and standardization. fungeability and standardization. fungeability and standardization. They're derivatives contracts. This They're derivatives contracts. This They're derivatives contracts. This isn't simply just betting at a, you isn't simply just betting at a, you isn't simply just betting at a, you know, with a bookie in a casino. And so know, with a bookie in a casino. And so know, with a bookie in a casino. And so each contract, that's that's correct. each contract, that's that's correct. each contract, that's that's correct. You would look for is it tied to an You would look for is it tied to an You would look for is it tied to an election or is it tied to a very election or is it tied to a very election or is it tied to a very specific event? Uh, is there a risk that specific event? Uh, is there a risk that specific event? Uh, is there a risk that that event can be manipulated or insider that event can be manipulated or insider that event can be manipulated or insider traded? And the and the exchanges are traded? And the and the exchanges are traded? And the and the exchanges are evaluating that. And there are instances evaluating that. And there are instances evaluating that. And there are instances where something is insider traded and it where something is insider traded and it where something is insider traded and it wasn't something they could have wasn't something they could have wasn't something they could have foreseen. it wasn't readily susceptible foreseen. it wasn't readily susceptible foreseen. it wasn't readily susceptible to manipulation and so they police that to manipulation and so they police that to manipulation and so they police that they bring uh actions against the they bring uh actions against the they bring uh actions against the traders and Khi did just this with some traders and Khi did just this with some traders and Khi did just this with some of its fines and in the past few weeks. of its fines and in the past few weeks. of its fines and in the past few weeks. Let me ask a question about quarterly Let me ask a question about quarterly Let me ask a question about quarterly reporting because maybe where there was reporting because maybe where there was reporting because maybe where there was the most manipulation in the past was the most manipulation in the past was the most manipulation in the past was around that, right? People would try to around that, right? People would try to around that, right? People would try to frontr run these quarterly reports. They frontr run these quarterly reports. They frontr run these quarterly reports. They would try to make guesses. Invariably, would try to make guesses. Invariably, would try to make guesses. Invariably, you would find some people that crossed you would find some people that crossed you would find some people that crossed the bright red line. But recently, Paul, the bright red line. But recently, Paul, the bright red line. But recently, Paul, President Trump said, "Maybe we should President Trump said, "Maybe we should President Trump said, "Maybe we should move to six month reporting or one-year move to six month reporting or one-year move to six month reporting or one-year reporting." And it was really reporting." And it was really reporting." And it was really wellreceived by a lot of people. Do you wellreceived by a lot of people. Do you wellreceived by a lot of people. Do you think that quarterly reporting has sort think that quarterly reporting has sort think that quarterly reporting has sort of also killed the IPO? Meaning when we of also killed the IPO? Meaning when we of also killed the IPO? Meaning when we think about making an IPO great again, think about making an IPO great again, think about making an IPO great again, just the complexity and the burden of just the complexity and the burden of just the complexity and the burden of such short termism, has it made the such short termism, has it made the such short termism, has it made the markets better or worse, do you think? markets better or worse, do you think? markets better or worse, do you think? >> Yeah. Well, that's a great point and I >> Yeah. Well, that's a great point and I >> Yeah. Well, that's a great point and I just wanted to add one uh kind of just wanted to add one uh kind of just wanted to add one uh kind of a little uh note to the previous a little uh note to the previous a little uh note to the previous discussion there that you know if if discussion there that you know if if discussion there that you know if if something is a tokenized security you something is a tokenized security you something is a tokenized security you know the uh federal securities laws know the uh federal securities laws know the uh federal securities laws apply and so that goes for insider apply and so that goes for insider apply and so that goes for insider trading you know with respect to uh trading you know with respect to uh trading you know with respect to uh trading securities uh where wherever trading securities uh where wherever trading securities uh where wherever they may be you know on the online or or they may be you know on the online or or they may be you know on the online or or on an exchange floor or wherever. So any on an exchange floor or wherever. So any on an exchange floor or wherever. So any but then to your point about uh the but then to your point about uh the but then to your point about uh the cadence of uh reporting I think that's cadence of uh reporting I think that's cadence of uh reporting I think that's an important one and we are going to an important one and we are going to an important one and we are going to come out with a a proposed rule and and come out with a a proposed rule and and come out with a a proposed rule and and seek comment on it and I frankly am a seek comment on it and I frankly am a seek comment on it and I frankly am a bit agnostic myself personally because bit agnostic myself personally because bit agnostic myself personally because if you look at things uh we haven't if you look at things uh we haven't if you look at things uh we haven't always had quarterly reporting. In fact, always had quarterly reporting. In fact, always had quarterly reporting. In fact, when the SEC was uh you know formed back when the SEC was uh you know formed back when the SEC was uh you know formed back in 1934, it basically codified the New in 1934, it basically codified the New in 1934, it basically codified the New York Stock Exchange rule book, which at York Stock Exchange rule book, which at York Stock Exchange rule book, which at the time called for annual reports. So the time called for annual reports. So the time called for annual reports. So annual reports prevailed until 1955 and annual reports prevailed until 1955 and annual reports prevailed until 1955 and the SEC went to semianual reporting. And the SEC went to semianual reporting. And the SEC went to semianual reporting. And by the way, the UK did the same thing by the way, the UK did the same thing by the way, the UK did the same thing around the same time. And then in 1970 around the same time. And then in 1970 around the same time. And then in 1970 only did things go to quarterly. And only did things go to quarterly. And only did things go to quarterly. And then the UK parted way they did then the UK parted way they did then the UK parted way they did quarterly as well. But then in 2014 or quarterly as well. But then in 2014 or quarterly as well. But then in 2014 or so, they uh they changed to go back to so, they uh they changed to go back to so, they uh they changed to go back to semiannual, but if you wanted to still semiannual, but if you wanted to still semiannual, but if you wanted to still report quarterly, you know, God bless report quarterly, you know, God bless report quarterly, you know, God bless you and go ahead and and do that. So, you and go ahead and and do that. So, you and go ahead and and do that. So, we're still at quarterly and and so the we're still at quarterly and and so the we're still at quarterly and and so the president did send out a you know, president did send out a you know, president did send out a you know, electronic message about that. And so, electronic message about that. And so, electronic message about that. And so, uh but our staff was looking at we're uh but our staff was looking at we're uh but our staff was looking at we're looking at what we call filer status. looking at what we call filer status. looking at what we call filer status. There are all sorts of different There are all sorts of different There are all sorts of different categories of filers with different categories of filers with different categories of filers with different rules like large accelerated filers, rules like large accelerated filers, rules like large accelerated filers, accelerated filers, emerging growth accelerated filers, emerging growth accelerated filers, emerging growth companies, and so forth. So, we're companies, and so forth. So, we're companies, and so forth. So, we're looking to kind of simplify all of this. looking to kind of simplify all of this. looking to kind of simplify all of this. And part of that also is perhaps smaller And part of that also is perhaps smaller And part of that also is perhaps smaller companies uh could benefit from, you companies uh could benefit from, you companies uh could benefit from, you know, reduced uh you know, uh cadence of know, reduced uh you know, uh cadence of know, reduced uh you know, uh cadence of reporting, but maybe not. They they have reporting, but maybe not. They they have reporting, but maybe not. They they have trouble finding analysts to follow their trouble finding analysts to follow their trouble finding analysts to follow their stock. That's another thing that might stock. That's another thing that might stock. That's another thing that might be an inhibition to go um public for be an inhibition to go um public for be an inhibition to go um public for small companies and maybe analysts want small companies and maybe analysts want small companies and maybe analysts want quarterly. Maybe they don't. Maybe they quarterly. Maybe they don't. Maybe they quarterly. Maybe they don't. Maybe they would prefer semiannual too. So I think would prefer semiannual too. So I think would prefer semiannual too. So I think this is a great debate to have right this is a great debate to have right this is a great debate to have right now. And you did have Barry Diller even now. And you did have Barry Diller even now. And you did have Barry Diller even taking the other side of it where he's taking the other side of it where he's taking the other side of it where he's like I'm just tired of giving like I'm just tired of giving like I'm just tired of giving predictions. I'm tired of playing this predictions. I'm tired of playing this predictions. I'm tired of playing this gamesmanship quarterly. I'm just going gamesmanship quarterly. I'm just going gamesmanship quarterly. I'm just going to release our accounting numbers every to release our accounting numbers every to release our accounting numbers every month and you all can have fun with month and you all can have fun with month and you all can have fun with numbers as much as you like. numbers as much as you like. numbers as much as you like. >> But that's amazing because you can do >> But that's amazing because you can do >> But that's amazing because you can do that now, right? You can have software that now, right? You can have software that now, right? You can have software that's so vibrant that it can just Jason that's so vibrant that it can just Jason that's so vibrant that it can just Jason release a stream and there'll be people release a stream and there'll be people release a stream and there'll be people that have, you know, developed agents that have, you know, developed agents that have, you know, developed agents and developed these AIs that will just and developed these AIs that will just and developed these AIs that will just process all of that and they will then process all of that and they will then process all of that and they will then publish out a dashboard and the whole publish out a dashboard and the whole publish out a dashboard and the whole thing will be almost real time. It could thing will be almost real time. It could thing will be almost real time. It could be real time. be real time. be real time. >> Yeah. And and there are services that do >> Yeah. And and there are services that do >> Yeah. And and there are services that do semi-interesting things already that you semi-interesting things already that you semi-interesting things already that you can buy that maybe people with budgets can buy that maybe people with budgets can buy that maybe people with budgets for data streams can do. Let's talk a for data streams can do. Let's talk a for data streams can do. Let's talk a little bit, Chairman Atkins, about the little bit, Chairman Atkins, about the little bit, Chairman Atkins, about the history of accreditation in this history of accreditation in this history of accreditation in this country. I think when you brought up country. I think when you brought up country. I think when you brought up Microsoft and the early part of your Microsoft and the early part of your Microsoft and the early part of your career, watching these companies go career, watching these companies go career, watching these companies go public, I did a little research while we public, I did a little research while we public, I did a little research while we were here and you were speaking. were here and you were speaking. were here and you were speaking. Microsoft and Apple went out with 1,200 Microsoft and Apple went out with 1,200 Microsoft and Apple went out with 1,200 employees each and about $400 million in employees each and about $400 million in employees each and about $400 million in revenue in today's dollars. 120 million revenue in today's dollars. 120 million revenue in today's dollars. 120 million in those dollars. So obviously there was in those dollars. So obviously there was in those dollars. So obviously there was this incredible opportunity for you to this incredible opportunity for you to this incredible opportunity for you to create and place a bet on these create and place a bet on these create and place a bet on these companies as an individual with a stock companies as an individual with a stock companies as an individual with a stock trading account and maybe move from you trading account and maybe move from you trading account and maybe move from you know one tier in societal wealth to know one tier in societal wealth to know one tier in societal wealth to another. And that's a big part of the another. And that's a big part of the another. And that's a big part of the American dream. But as we talk about American dream. But as we talk about American dream. But as we talk about private markets the SEC has ancient private markets the SEC has ancient private markets the SEC has ancient rules now going on close to a century rules now going on close to a century rules now going on close to a century old to protect investors called old to protect investors called old to protect investors called accreditation laws. They apply to 95% of accreditation laws. They apply to 95% of accreditation laws. They apply to 95% of the of the country apparently and about the of the country apparently and about the of the country apparently and about 5% of us get to trade in some way in 5% of us get to trade in some way in 5% of us get to trade in some way in private companies where the value is private companies where the value is private companies where the value is created. The SEC has been challenged and created. The SEC has been challenged and created. The SEC has been challenged and charged with changing these evolving charged with changing these evolving charged with changing these evolving these and it never seems to happen. My these and it never seems to happen. My these and it never seems to happen. My perception is which SEC chair is ever perception is which SEC chair is ever perception is which SEC chair is ever going to take this on because hey, it's going to take this on because hey, it's going to take this on because hey, it's just easier to keep the status quo. But just easier to keep the status quo. But just easier to keep the status quo. But is there not an argument and I know is there not an argument and I know is there not an argument and I know there's some legislation now to create a there's some legislation now to create a there's some legislation now to create a sophisticated investor test. So instead sophisticated investor test. So instead sophisticated investor test. So instead of you inherited a million dollars, of you inherited a million dollars, of you inherited a million dollars, you're qualified to buy stock in Uber you're qualified to buy stock in Uber you're qualified to buy stock in Uber when it's a private company, why not a when it's a private company, why not a when it's a private company, why not a sophisticated Tesla, a driver's license, sophisticated Tesla, a driver's license, sophisticated Tesla, a driver's license, and you learn uh how to trade in private and you learn uh how to trade in private and you learn uh how to trade in private companies, and you get to participate in companies, and you get to participate in companies, and you get to participate in that market instead of just saying to that market instead of just saying to that market instead of just saying to people, well, you can only participate people, well, you can only participate people, well, you can only participate in sports betting or blackjack in Vegas, in sports betting or blackjack in Vegas, in sports betting or blackjack in Vegas, but you can't. If you were an Uber but you can't. If you were an Uber but you can't. If you were an Uber driver or an Airbnb host or an HR person driver or an Airbnb host or an HR person driver or an Airbnb host or an HR person using LinkedIn as a private company, buy using LinkedIn as a private company, buy using LinkedIn as a private company, buy those stocks. Well, you have an insight those stocks. Well, you have an insight those stocks. Well, you have an insight and you have an instinct into maybe and you have an instinct into maybe and you have an instinct into maybe purchasing. So, so talk about the purchasing. So, so talk about the purchasing. So, so talk about the accreditation test and sophisticated accreditation test and sophisticated accreditation test and sophisticated investor tests and and your personal investor tests and and your personal investor tests and and your personal view on it. view on it. view on it. >> Yeah. Well, great point. And so, well, >> Yeah. Well, great point. And so, well, >> Yeah. Well, great point. And so, well, here's one chairman who is going to here's one chairman who is going to here's one chairman who is going to tackle that issue. And so, we intend to tackle that issue. And so, we intend to tackle that issue. And so, we intend to do that, the accredited investor do that, the accredited investor do that, the accredited investor definition. And so interestingly, I mean definition. And so interestingly, I mean definition. And so interestingly, I mean to your point in the statute uh in the to your point in the statute uh in the to your point in the statute uh in the investment advisors act of 1940 I investment advisors act of 1940 I investment advisors act of 1940 I believe or investment companies act of believe or investment companies act of believe or investment companies act of 1940 um it there's a definition of that 1940 um it there's a definition of that 1940 um it there's a definition of that and it includes knowledge not just uh and it includes knowledge not just uh and it includes knowledge not just uh you know wherewithal or sort of assets you know wherewithal or sort of assets you know wherewithal or sort of assets that you have but include it has the that you have but include it has the that you have but include it has the word knowledge in it. So to your point, word knowledge in it. So to your point, word knowledge in it. So to your point, why can't we have and people have why can't we have and people have why can't we have and people have suggested this over time uh equivalent suggested this over time uh equivalent suggested this over time uh equivalent of a driver's test or something like of a driver's test or something like of a driver's test or something like that or recognize somebody who has a CPA that or recognize somebody who has a CPA that or recognize somebody who has a CPA or you know a CFA or or whatever but uh or you know a CFA or or whatever but uh or you know a CFA or or whatever but uh you know maybe a type of series 7 but uh you know maybe a type of series 7 but uh you know maybe a type of series 7 but uh you know not so complicated as that that you know not so complicated as that that you know not so complicated as that that FINRA um administers. So part of the FINRA um administers. So part of the FINRA um administers. So part of the thing is like who's going to make the thing is like who's going to make the thing is like who's going to make the test, who's going to administer it, and test, who's going to administer it, and test, who's going to administer it, and how do you um get there? But anyway, but how do you um get there? But anyway, but how do you um get there? But anyway, but we can those are issues that we want to we can those are issues that we want to we can those are issues that we want to tackle. Um, and I remember uh when this tackle. Um, and I remember uh when this tackle. Um, and I remember uh when this uh uh issue came up when I was a uh uh issue came up when I was a uh uh issue came up when I was a commissioner back in the as uh there was commissioner back in the as uh there was commissioner back in the as uh there was one uh comment letter that came in that one uh comment letter that came in that one uh comment letter that came in that really struck me and it said, "Today I really struck me and it said, "Today I really struck me and it said, "Today I am able to um this is the comment letter am able to um this is the comment letter am able to um this is the comment letter uh commenter speaking. Today I um am uh commenter speaking. Today I um am uh commenter speaking. Today I um am able to buy a hedge fund, a private uh able to buy a hedge fund, a private uh able to buy a hedge fund, a private uh asset or whatnot. um but tomorrow once asset or whatnot. um but tomorrow once asset or whatnot. um but tomorrow once you raise the standard of you know I you raise the standard of you know I you raise the standard of you know I have to have x amount of money of assets have to have x amount of money of assets have to have x amount of money of assets or income or whatever I won't be able or income or whatever I won't be able or income or whatever I won't be able to. So what's changed? Why why are you to. So what's changed? Why why are you to. So what's changed? Why why are you going to take that away from me? So, why going to take that away from me? So, why going to take that away from me? So, why does a finance professor who makes does a finance professor who makes does a finance professor who makes $100,000 and lives in an apartment and $100,000 and lives in an apartment and $100,000 and lives in an apartment and doesn't have any other assets, why is he doesn't have any other assets, why is he doesn't have any other assets, why is he not able to your point to invest in uh not able to your point to invest in uh not able to your point to invest in uh some of these uh types of securities, some of these uh types of securities, some of these uh types of securities, whereas an aerys who just came into $10 whereas an aerys who just came into $10 whereas an aerys who just came into $10 million or something like that suddenly million or something like that suddenly million or something like that suddenly is. Now, she can hire people to advise is. Now, she can hire people to advise is. Now, she can hire people to advise her, but they could be dummies, too. I her, but they could be dummies, too. I her, but they could be dummies, too. I mean who knows what they are but so mean who knows what they are but so mean who knows what they are but so anyway so I think we have to take a anyway so I think we have to take a anyway so I think we have to take a fresh look at all this and we are going fresh look at all this and we are going fresh look at all this and we are going to do that uh here this year and uh um to do that uh here this year and uh um to do that uh here this year and uh um with a with a proposed rule to address with a with a proposed rule to address with a with a proposed rule to address that. that. that. >> I have a question around the derivatives >> I have a question around the derivatives >> I have a question around the derivatives markets. Well actually before I ask the markets. Well actually before I ask the markets. Well actually before I ask the question about I want to ask about the question about I want to ask about the question about I want to ask about the futures markets which is you have an futures markets which is you have an futures markets which is you have an enormous number of highfrequency trading enormous number of highfrequency trading enormous number of highfrequency trading firms that really dominate futures firms that really dominate futures firms that really dominate futures volume. Can you just tell us volume. Can you just tell us volume. Can you just tell us both the value that these folks are both the value that these folks are both the value that these folks are providing? Is it truly liquidity or is providing? Is it truly liquidity or is providing? Is it truly liquidity or is it and there's been some speculation it and there's been some speculation it and there's been some speculation about this very sophisticated market about this very sophisticated market about this very sophisticated market ARB? And if it's the latter, ARB? And if it's the latter, ARB? And if it's the latter, where do you think we need to do where do you think we need to do where do you think we need to do necessarily a better job? I think the necessarily a better job? I think the necessarily a better job? I think the best example is if you look at just the best example is if you look at just the best example is if you look at just the volume of futures activities and spot volume of futures activities and spot volume of futures activities and spot prices of certain commodities, the basis prices of certain commodities, the basis prices of certain commodities, the basis is starting to kind of get out of whack. is starting to kind of get out of whack. is starting to kind of get out of whack. So just Tell me about the market So just Tell me about the market So just Tell me about the market participants part of these derivatives participants part of these derivatives participants part of these derivatives and futures markets and what you think and futures markets and what you think and futures markets and what you think about what's going on. about what's going on. about what's going on. >> Our markets have three core types of >> Our markets have three core types of >> Our markets have three core types of participants. We've got the hedggers, participants. We've got the hedggers, participants. We've got the hedggers, we've got uh speculators, and we've got we've got uh speculators, and we've got we've got uh speculators, and we've got market makers. And the liquidity is market makers. And the liquidity is market makers. And the liquidity is really the the result of all three. So, really the the result of all three. So, really the the result of all three. So, there's going to be market participants there's going to be market participants there's going to be market participants that really rely on whether it's a that really rely on whether it's a that really rely on whether it's a cattle contract or a credit default swap cattle contract or a credit default swap cattle contract or a credit default swap product. they need to to enter into product. they need to to enter into product. they need to to enter into these agreements to hedge key risks in these agreements to hedge key risks in these agreements to hedge key risks in their business. And then you've got their business. And then you've got their business. And then you've got folks that are willing to provide folks that are willing to provide folks that are willing to provide liquidity, whether they're speculating liquidity, whether they're speculating liquidity, whether they're speculating and taking another position on that for and taking another position on that for and taking another position on that for for their proprietary basis or they're for their proprietary basis or they're for their proprietary basis or they're doing so to make markets and earn a doing so to make markets and earn a doing so to make markets and earn a spread. And that's right. I mean, we're spread. And that's right. I mean, we're spread. And that's right. I mean, we're regulating these markets. We're making regulating these markets. We're making regulating these markets. We're making sure that the trades that are going sure that the trades that are going sure that the trades that are going through have integrity and that folks through have integrity and that folks through have integrity and that folks aren't uh, you know, wash trading and aren't uh, you know, wash trading and aren't uh, you know, wash trading and trying to manipulate markets. There are trying to manipulate markets. There are trying to manipulate markets. There are some strategies that raise particular some strategies that raise particular some strategies that raise particular risk of manipulation or fraud and we risk of manipulation or fraud and we risk of manipulation or fraud and we police that. We've taken actions in the police that. We've taken actions in the police that. We've taken actions in the past to to make sure that uh the the past to to make sure that uh the the past to to make sure that uh the the exchanges are not uh subject to uh exchanges are not uh subject to uh exchanges are not uh subject to uh illicit behavior and and and trading. illicit behavior and and and trading. illicit behavior and and and trading. And the exchanges similar to my point And the exchanges similar to my point And the exchanges similar to my point earlier related to prediction markets earlier related to prediction markets earlier related to prediction markets are first line of defense here as well. are first line of defense here as well. are first line of defense here as well. They surveil their markets and we're in They surveil their markets and we're in They surveil their markets and we're in constant communication with them as well constant communication with them as well constant communication with them as well as the traders. were often times sending as the traders. were often times sending as the traders. were often times sending information requests to traders about information requests to traders about information requests to traders about their activity. So I I do believe that their activity. So I I do believe that their activity. So I I do believe that the these all three participants are the these all three participants are the these all three participants are very important to make sure that our very important to make sure that our very important to make sure that our markets are are liquid. markets are are liquid. markets are are liquid. >> So on that last point that you just made >> So on that last point that you just made >> So on that last point that you just made which I think is a very good one post which I think is a very good one post which I think is a very good one post GFC there was like these central GFC there was like these central GFC there was like these central clearing functions right to make sure clearing functions right to make sure clearing functions right to make sure that derivatives contracts were getting that derivatives contracts were getting that derivatives contracts were getting not getting out of control and we had a not getting out of control and we had a not getting out of control and we had a good sense of systemic risk. But it good sense of systemic risk. But it good sense of systemic risk. But it turns out that one blind spot everybody turns out that one blind spot everybody turns out that one blind spot everybody has is to these bilateral swaps. I mean, has is to these bilateral swaps. I mean, has is to these bilateral swaps. I mean, I've done certain bilateral swaps with I've done certain bilateral swaps with I've done certain bilateral swaps with certain counterparties. It's not clear certain counterparties. It's not clear certain counterparties. It's not clear to me that you know that on the back end to me that you know that on the back end to me that you know that on the back end of it. Can you talk about that and how of it. Can you talk about that and how of it. Can you talk about that and how you think that that should stay the you think that that should stay the you think that that should stay the same, change, what that is, whether that same, change, what that is, whether that same, change, what that is, whether that keeps you up at night, whether it should keeps you up at night, whether it should keeps you up at night, whether it should keep us up at night. keep us up at night. keep us up at night. >> Sure. Well, I'm not a huge fan of >> Sure. Well, I'm not a huge fan of >> Sure. Well, I'm not a huge fan of DoddFrank, but in the wake of DoddFrank, DoddFrank, but in the wake of DoddFrank, DoddFrank, but in the wake of DoddFrank, we got swap data reporting. And these we got swap data reporting. And these we got swap data reporting. And these bilateral over-the-counter swaps are now bilateral over-the-counter swaps are now bilateral over-the-counter swaps are now generally all there are some exceptions generally all there are some exceptions generally all there are some exceptions but sent to swap data repositories where but sent to swap data repositories where but sent to swap data repositories where we're getting information on a daily we're getting information on a daily we're getting information on a daily basis as well as these third party swap basis as well as these third party swap basis as well as these third party swap data repositories that compile that data repositories that compile that data repositories that compile that information. So the markets are much information. So the markets are much information. So the markets are much less opaque. We have transparency today. less opaque. We have transparency today. less opaque. We have transparency today. But my concern about the swap data But my concern about the swap data But my concern about the swap data reporting regulations is that they have reporting regulations is that they have reporting regulations is that they have really been a tool for our enforcement really been a tool for our enforcement really been a tool for our enforcement divisions in the past where you've got divisions in the past where you've got divisions in the past where you've got so many different fields. It's really so many different fields. It's really so many different fields. It's really difficult to characterize each different difficult to characterize each different difficult to characterize each different type of swap. I'll tell you when I was type of swap. I'll tell you when I was type of swap. I'll tell you when I was in private practice and uh folks started in private practice and uh folks started in private practice and uh folks started entering into Bitcoin swaps and and entering into Bitcoin swaps and and entering into Bitcoin swaps and and crypto swaps characterizing that as a crypto swaps characterizing that as a crypto swaps characterizing that as a type of uh derivative relative to cattle type of uh derivative relative to cattle type of uh derivative relative to cattle and wheat and other commodities really and wheat and other commodities really and wheat and other commodities really was a whole lot of legal advising and a was a whole lot of legal advising and a was a whole lot of legal advising and a lot of wasted money frankly. So we need lot of wasted money frankly. So we need lot of wasted money frankly. So we need to simplify. We need to make sure that to simplify. We need to make sure that to simplify. We need to make sure that our swap data reporting regime is our swap data reporting regime is our swap data reporting regime is rational and coherent and makes sense rational and coherent and makes sense rational and coherent and makes sense for the everyday participant in the for the everyday participant in the for the everyday participant in the market. you shouldn't have to go hire a market. you shouldn't have to go hire a market. you shouldn't have to go hire a high price law firm just to enter into a high price law firm just to enter into a high price law firm just to enter into a risk management tool. But these markets, risk management tool. But these markets, risk management tool. But these markets, the these uh these developments post the these uh these developments post the these uh these developments post DoddFrank, some of them make sense, some DoddFrank, some of them make sense, some DoddFrank, some of them make sense, some of them don't. A big priority of mine is of them don't. A big priority of mine is of them don't. A big priority of mine is going through uh rule by rule to make going through uh rule by rule to make going through uh rule by rule to make sure that all of our regulations are sure that all of our regulations are sure that all of our regulations are really the minimum effective dose. I really the minimum effective dose. I really the minimum effective dose. I have a question for both of you. Is have a question for both of you. Is have a question for both of you. Is there something that if you could borrow there something that if you could borrow there something that if you could borrow from the other person's regulatory from the other person's regulatory from the other person's regulatory toolbox? toolbox? toolbox? >> H >> H >> H >> something that they can do that you >> something that they can do that you >> something that they can do that you cannot that you would love to also be cannot that you would love to also be cannot that you would love to also be able to do. able to do. able to do. >> From my perspective, one thing for new >> From my perspective, one thing for new >> From my perspective, one thing for new products that the CFTC has is called products that the CFTC has is called products that the CFTC has is called self-certification. self-certification. self-certification. So for um repetitive products that uh So for um repetitive products that uh So for um repetitive products that uh you know once you go ahead and approve you know once you go ahead and approve you know once you go ahead and approve the general type of uh uh framework for the general type of uh uh framework for the general type of uh uh framework for it uh then it's self-certification by it uh then it's self-certification by it uh then it's self-certification by the markets uh and by the people who are the markets uh and by the people who are the markets uh and by the people who are of course coming forward with the of course coming forward with the of course coming forward with the products. We don't necessarily have that products. We don't necessarily have that products. We don't necessarily have that kind of uh thing. We do for some things kind of uh thing. We do for some things kind of uh thing. We do for some things like for ETFs and whatnot where we've like for ETFs and whatnot where we've like for ETFs and whatnot where we've come up with rules that then uh you know come up with rules that then uh you know come up with rules that then uh you know then it's up to the market participants then it's up to the market participants then it's up to the market participants to abide by the rules and have their to abide by the rules and have their to abide by the rules and have their product conform. But on so many other product conform. But on so many other product conform. But on so many other products we have a a much more complex products we have a a much more complex products we have a a much more complex uh you know labor inensive let's just uh you know labor inensive let's just uh you know labor inensive let's just say approach uh to it that requires say approach uh to it that requires say approach uh to it that requires approval by the staff and the commission approval by the staff and the commission approval by the staff and the commission and and that sort of thing whereas it's and and that sort of thing whereas it's and and that sort of thing whereas it's much more streamlined on the CFTC side. much more streamlined on the CFTC side. much more streamlined on the CFTC side. Well, on our side, there's uh there's Well, on our side, there's uh there's Well, on our side, there's uh there's one regulation that I think's been one regulation that I think's been one regulation that I think's been really effective on the SEC's uh really effective on the SEC's uh really effective on the SEC's uh jurisdiction, and that's the alternative jurisdiction, and that's the alternative jurisdiction, and that's the alternative trading system. So, on both sides of the trading system. So, on both sides of the trading system. So, on both sides of the house, we have fullborn uh you know, house, we have fullborn uh you know, house, we have fullborn uh you know, very very intensive exchange very very intensive exchange very very intensive exchange registrations. Uh the SEC went ahead registrations. Uh the SEC went ahead registrations. Uh the SEC went ahead with a rulemaking that allows broker with a rulemaking that allows broker with a rulemaking that allows broker dealers to then set up a an alternative dealers to then set up a an alternative dealers to then set up a an alternative trading system and it's really an trading system and it's really an trading system and it's really an exchange light framework and I'd love to exchange light framework and I'd love to exchange light framework and I'd love to see that on the CFTC side as well. see that on the CFTC side as well. see that on the CFTC side as well. Chairman Atkins, I want to talk about Chairman Atkins, I want to talk about Chairman Atkins, I want to talk about fund formation and the the power of fund formation and the the power of fund formation and the the power of venture capital in the US economy. 20% venture capital in the US economy. 20% venture capital in the US economy. 20% of the GDP of this country comes from of the GDP of this country comes from of the GDP of this country comes from ventureback companies. 40% of the S&P ventureback companies. 40% of the S&P ventureback companies. 40% of the S&P obviously with the Max 7 contributing obviously with the Max 7 contributing obviously with the Max 7 contributing heavily uh comes from ventureback heavily uh comes from ventureback heavily uh comes from ventureback companies that we all know and love companies that we all know and love companies that we all know and love their products. But fund formation for their products. But fund formation for their products. But fund formation for venture capital is ancient and there are venture capital is ancient and there are venture capital is ancient and there are massive limitations on it. There's two massive limitations on it. There's two massive limitations on it. There's two ways obviously to address this. One is ways obviously to address this. One is ways obviously to address this. One is the path to accreditation for people to the path to accreditation for people to the path to accreditation for people to become sophisticated. We just spoke become sophisticated. We just spoke become sophisticated. We just spoke about that. But the other is how many about that. But the other is how many about that. But the other is how many people are allowed to participate in a people are allowed to participate in a people are allowed to participate in a fund. As but one example, when I raised fund. As but one example, when I raised fund. As but one example, when I raised my last fund, I had well over $und00 my last fund, I had well over $und00 my last fund, I had well over $und00 million in accredited investors who million in accredited investors who million in accredited investors who wanted to have a small bite of the apple wanted to have a small bite of the apple wanted to have a small bite of the apple and get into venture capital. But I can and get into venture capital. But I can and get into venture capital. But I can only accept a hundred. I can only accept only accept a hundred. I can only accept only accept a hundred. I can only accept 10 million. And doesn't make any logical 10 million. And doesn't make any logical 10 million. And doesn't make any logical sense because in fact it would be better sense because in fact it would be better sense because in fact it would be better if more people could put in smaller if more people could put in smaller if more people could put in smaller amounts. Many hands makes for light amounts. Many hands makes for light amounts. Many hands makes for light work. and more people could participate work. and more people could participate work. and more people could participate in this. This would have a dual impact in this. This would have a dual impact in this. This would have a dual impact on the economy. One, more startups would on the economy. One, more startups would on the economy. One, more startups would get funded and two, more individual get funded and two, more individual get funded and two, more individual investors would get to participate in investors would get to participate in investors would get to participate in this very closed ecosystem known as this very closed ecosystem known as this very closed ecosystem known as venture capital. So, I was wondering venture capital. So, I was wondering venture capital. So, I was wondering your thoughts on venture capital your thoughts on venture capital your thoughts on venture capital specifically and formation of what is specifically and formation of what is specifically and formation of what is the driver of the US economy. you raised the driver of the US economy. you raised the driver of the US economy. you raised a great point, but a lot of that that a great point, but a lot of that that a great point, but a lot of that that you're talking about with funds is you're talking about with funds is you're talking about with funds is statutoily statutoily statutoily uh mandated. And so there are two big uh mandated. And so there are two big uh mandated. And so there are two big exemptions in the uh investor company exemptions in the uh investor company exemptions in the uh investor company act of 1940 uh that are, you know, act of 1940 uh that are, you know, act of 1940 uh that are, you know, pertinent here. And so those were pertinent here. And so those were pertinent here. And so those were adopted by Congress with a lot of uh adopted by Congress with a lot of uh adopted by Congress with a lot of uh debate and and whatnot. Um and so um so debate and and whatnot. Um and so um so debate and and whatnot. Um and so um so that is more difficult to change and that is more difficult to change and that is more difficult to change and there's certain ways that we can change there's certain ways that we can change there's certain ways that we can change them and so we are going to look at this them and so we are going to look at this them and so we are going to look at this and there you have a lot of different uh and there you have a lot of different uh and there you have a lot of different uh types of accredited investors you have types of accredited investors you have types of accredited investors you have qualified purchasers you have you know qualified purchasers you have you know qualified purchasers you have you know also qualified institutional purchasers also qualified institutional purchasers also qualified institutional purchasers and and and whatnot or buyers rather and and and and whatnot or buyers rather and and and and whatnot or buyers rather and so uh so all of these things need to be so uh so all of these things need to be so uh so all of these things need to be uh you know I think looked at a new and uh you know I think looked at a new and uh you know I think looked at a new and where we have the authority through um where we have the authority through um where we have the authority through um our exemptive power uh under the various our exemptive power uh under the various our exemptive power uh under the various statutes, we'll be able to use that. But statutes, we'll be able to use that. But statutes, we'll be able to use that. But I do think that especially now as we I do think that especially now as we I do think that especially now as we talk about um opening up private uh talk about um opening up private uh talk about um opening up private uh funds or or private types of products to funds or or private types of products to funds or or private types of products to a broader range of people, including to a broader range of people, including to a broader range of people, including to uh you know, 401k plans and whatnot. uh you know, 401k plans and whatnot. uh you know, 401k plans and whatnot. We're we're working with the Department We're we're working with the Department We're we're working with the Department of Labor and the Treasury Department uh of Labor and the Treasury Department uh of Labor and the Treasury Department uh to address this and we all feel very to address this and we all feel very to address this and we all feel very strongly that here you have to have good strongly that here you have to have good strongly that here you have to have good guard rails. You just can't open up the guard rails. You just can't open up the guard rails. You just can't open up the barn door wide open. That we have to barn door wide open. That we have to barn door wide open. That we have to have standards for what can go into have standards for what can go into have standards for what can go into these sorts of uh you know plans, 401k these sorts of uh you know plans, 401k these sorts of uh you know plans, 401k plans, pension plans, but retail plans, pension plans, but retail plans, pension plans, but retail investors are already exposed to the investors are already exposed to the investors are already exposed to the private markets through their pension private markets through their pension private markets through their pension funds, insurance companies and all that. funds, insurance companies and all that. funds, insurance companies and all that. So all of this needs to have a you know So all of this needs to have a you know So all of this needs to have a you know fresh look and you know come up with uh fresh look and you know come up with uh fresh look and you know come up with uh good uh new ideas uh to basically good uh new ideas uh to basically good uh new ideas uh to basically provide de democratize it. provide de democratize it. provide de democratize it. >> And just as a quick followup there one >> And just as a quick followup there one >> And just as a quick followup there one that I think would be super easy is just that I think would be super easy is just that I think would be super easy is just hey 10% of whatever your last two years hey 10% of whatever your last two years hey 10% of whatever your last two years average average average >> income was or you know no more than five >> income was or you know no more than five >> income was or you know no more than five or 10% of your net worth Michael there or 10% of your net worth Michael there or 10% of your net worth Michael there there are some common sense ideas here there are some common sense ideas here there are some common sense ideas here that would would increase the amount of that would would increase the amount of that would would increase the amount of participation. Can you think of Michael participation. Can you think of Michael participation. Can you think of Michael any reason that we should restrict any reason that we should restrict any reason that we should restrict Americans from being able to participate Americans from being able to participate Americans from being able to participate in venture capital? Is there any in venture capital? Is there any in venture capital? Is there any argument here if there were some basic argument here if there were some basic argument here if there were some basic level controls as I've outlined here? level controls as I've outlined here? level controls as I've outlined here? Sophistication taking a test or a cap. Sophistication taking a test or a cap. Sophistication taking a test or a cap. You can only put 5K in. You make 150K a You can only put 5K in. You make 150K a You can only put 5K in. You make 150K a year, you can put in 15K per year. What year, you can put in 15K per year. What year, you can put in 15K per year. What are your thoughts, Michael? are your thoughts, Michael? are your thoughts, Michael? >> I'm a believer in free markets and I >> I'm a believer in free markets and I >> I'm a believer in free markets and I really think that allowing more access really think that allowing more access really think that allowing more access to our capital markets is is really a to our capital markets is is really a to our capital markets is is really a powerful thing for everyday Americans. powerful thing for everyday Americans. powerful thing for everyday Americans. We saw the ICOs, you know, the initial We saw the ICOs, you know, the initial We saw the ICOs, you know, the initial coin offerings where things just kind of coin offerings where things just kind of coin offerings where things just kind of moved into crypto and you had all sorts moved into crypto and you had all sorts moved into crypto and you had all sorts of investments in different projects and of investments in different projects and of investments in different projects and they were attempting to to get under the they were attempting to to get under the they were attempting to to get under the radar of the securities laws even though radar of the securities laws even though radar of the securities laws even though there are capital raises with with there are capital raises with with there are capital raises with with different tokens and I think the markets different tokens and I think the markets different tokens and I think the markets always find a way. So allowing for more always find a way. So allowing for more always find a way. So allowing for more access, decreasing some of the access, decreasing some of the access, decreasing some of the requirements around accreditation, I requirements around accreditation, I requirements around accreditation, I think that's a really great thing for think that's a really great thing for think that's a really great thing for the American people and and really will the American people and and really will the American people and and really will just allow for people to to have some just allow for people to to have some just allow for people to to have some skin in the game and maybe they lose skin in the game and maybe they lose skin in the game and maybe they lose sometimes, but other times they really sometimes, but other times they really sometimes, but other times they really hit it big and it's a great thing for hit it big and it's a great thing for hit it big and it's a great thing for for everyone. for everyone. for everyone. >> So nature finds a way, right? Like they >> So nature finds a way, right? Like they >> So nature finds a way, right? Like they don't allow people to participate. They don't allow people to participate. They don't allow people to participate. They start doing ICOs. And when I looked at start doing ICOs. And when I looked at start doing ICOs. And when I looked at them, I looked at a hundred Shimoth I them, I looked at a hundred Shimoth I them, I looked at a hundred Shimoth I said, "Wow, 99% of these are white said, "Wow, 99% of these are white said, "Wow, 99% of these are white papers with spelling errors in them. papers with spelling errors in them. papers with spelling errors in them. These are not the real companies that These are not the real companies that These are not the real companies that you and I look at in our daily lives in you and I look at in our daily lives in you and I look at in our daily lives in venture capital. So it's reminds me of venture capital. So it's reminds me of venture capital. So it's reminds me of what happened with crypto which is hey what happened with crypto which is hey what happened with crypto which is hey it went offshore. It went to another it went offshore. It went to another it went offshore. It went to another stream. I want to talk about just the stream. I want to talk about just the stream. I want to talk about just the capital markets globally. We're in this capital markets globally. We're in this capital markets globally. We're in this very unique moment where there just very unique moment where there just very unique moment where there just seems to be this separation where the seems to be this separation where the seems to be this separation where the American capital markets and you two are American capital markets and you two are American capital markets and you two are tips of the spear have enormous tips of the spear have enormous tips of the spear have enormous credibility. And then when you look at credibility. And then when you look at credibility. And then when you look at some of these other capital markets Paul some of these other capital markets Paul some of these other capital markets Paul you mentioned the UK but I hate to say you mentioned the UK but I hate to say you mentioned the UK but I hate to say it so bluntly but the UK is a disaster. it so bluntly but the UK is a disaster. it so bluntly but the UK is a disaster. It is impossible to raise money there. It is impossible to raise money there. It is impossible to raise money there. It's impossible to raise money or It's impossible to raise money or It's impossible to raise money or innovate in a European exchange. It's a innovate in a European exchange. It's a innovate in a European exchange. It's a little bit easier in Asia, but it's little bit easier in Asia, but it's little bit easier in Asia, but it's complicated. But then you do see some of complicated. But then you do see some of complicated. But then you do see some of these upstart exchanges that are trying these upstart exchanges that are trying these upstart exchanges that are trying to push and innovate in Abu Dhabi and to push and innovate in Abu Dhabi and to push and innovate in Abu Dhabi and KSA, etc. If you just take a step back KSA, etc. If you just take a step back KSA, etc. If you just take a step back for a second, I just love your for a second, I just love your for a second, I just love your perspective on what's going to happen to perspective on what's going to happen to perspective on what's going to happen to capital formation and specifically capital formation and specifically capital formation and specifically what does America need to do to get this what does America need to do to get this what does America need to do to get this next couple of trillion dollars to be next couple of trillion dollars to be next couple of trillion dollars to be brought on short? Well, first of all, I brought on short? Well, first of all, I brought on short? Well, first of all, I think you know our our capital markets think you know our our capital markets think you know our our capital markets are the envy of the world. I mean, it are the envy of the world. I mean, it are the envy of the world. I mean, it really is amazing. uh when I travel really is amazing. uh when I travel really is amazing. uh when I travel through Europe or uh Japan and uh and through Europe or uh Japan and uh and through Europe or uh Japan and uh and the UK and and and Middle East and the UK and and and Middle East and the UK and and and Middle East and whatnot, people really envy our huge whatnot, people really envy our huge whatnot, people really envy our huge capital markets and how robust they are capital markets and how robust they are capital markets and how robust they are uh how fair they are. And it goes back uh how fair they are. And it goes back uh how fair they are. And it goes back to our rule of law and enforcability of to our rule of law and enforcability of to our rule of law and enforcability of contract. And that's the essence of what contract. And that's the essence of what contract. And that's the essence of what is the foundation uh of uh you know our is the foundation uh of uh you know our is the foundation uh of uh you know our freedom and our ability to uh you know freedom and our ability to uh you know freedom and our ability to uh you know do innovate and and have all these new do innovate and and have all these new do innovate and and have all these new products. So they would love to have products. So they would love to have products. So they would love to have that plus the um uh you know the I guess that plus the um uh you know the I guess that plus the um uh you know the I guess what they also really um envy is our uh what they also really um envy is our uh what they also really um envy is our uh risk appetite here in the United States risk appetite here in the United States risk appetite here in the United States where people uh are have an equity where people uh are have an equity where people uh are have an equity investment culture and that is really investment culture and that is really investment culture and that is really largely uh absent in Japan uh and in largely uh absent in Japan uh and in largely uh absent in Japan uh and in Europe and in a lot of ways they can't Europe and in a lot of ways they can't Europe and in a lot of ways they can't get out of their way because out of get out of their way because out of get out of their way because out of their own way because through their uh their own way because through their uh their own way because through their uh regulatory system and whatnot I mean regulatory system and whatnot I mean regulatory system and whatnot I mean ours is bad enough, but they um in many ours is bad enough, but they um in many ours is bad enough, but they um in many ways take it to a different extreme with ways take it to a different extreme with ways take it to a different extreme with a very narrowly constructed code that uh a very narrowly constructed code that uh a very narrowly constructed code that uh really hamstrings them and is is not really hamstrings them and is is not really hamstrings them and is is not very flexible in the future. So that's very flexible in the future. So that's very flexible in the future. So that's what as far as if we can uh open up our what as far as if we can uh open up our what as far as if we can uh open up our markets as far as you know some of the markets as far as you know some of the markets as far as you know some of the things that we've been talking about things that we've been talking about things that we've been talking about here as far as new products allow here as far as new products allow here as far as new products allow innovation to take place here on on innovation to take place here on on innovation to take place here on on shore and then also to fix some of the shore and then also to fix some of the shore and then also to fix some of the things like the accredited investor things like the accredited investor things like the accredited investor investor standard and that sort of investor standard and that sort of investor standard and that sort of thing. I think we you know can then to thing. I think we you know can then to thing. I think we you know can then to your point uh you know uh turbocharge it your point uh you know uh turbocharge it your point uh you know uh turbocharge it to continue our growth. Crypto's been a to continue our growth. Crypto's been a to continue our growth. Crypto's been a bit of the wild west and we have things bit of the wild west and we have things bit of the wild west and we have things NFTTS, ICOs, meme coins. They feel NFTTS, ICOs, meme coins. They feel NFTTS, ICOs, meme coins. They feel they look like stocks to people, whether they look like stocks to people, whether they look like stocks to people, whether it's dollar sign Trump or dollar sign it's dollar sign Trump or dollar sign it's dollar sign Trump or dollar sign Doge, whatever it is, but they have a Doge, whatever it is, but they have a Doge, whatever it is, but they have a ticker symbol. They have a chart. They ticker symbol. They have a chart. They ticker symbol. They have a chart. They trade like a stock. What do we need to trade like a stock. What do we need to trade like a stock. What do we need to do in regards to crypto? What What do in regards to crypto? What What do in regards to crypto? What What should and where is the line between should and where is the line between should and where is the line between launching a a crypto token and the launching a a crypto token and the launching a a crypto token and the public being protected there? Chairman public being protected there? Chairman public being protected there? Chairman Atkins versus, hey, it's a publicly Atkins versus, hey, it's a publicly Atkins versus, hey, it's a publicly traded stock because for a lot of them, traded stock because for a lot of them, traded stock because for a lot of them, they get into it and they're the suckers they get into it and they're the suckers they get into it and they're the suckers at the table. It feels, it looks, it at the table. It feels, it looks, it at the table. It feels, it looks, it quacks like a duck. It looks like a duck quacks like a duck. It looks like a duck quacks like a duck. It looks like a duck and so they buy it like it's a duck, but and so they buy it like it's a duck, but and so they buy it like it's a duck, but it's not a duck, obviously. So, what do it's not a duck, obviously. So, what do it's not a duck, obviously. So, what do And then this was Gensler's, I think, And then this was Gensler's, I think, And then this was Gensler's, I think, you know, maybe a logical point, you know, maybe a logical point, you know, maybe a logical point, although his execution was poor, there although his execution was poor, there although his execution was poor, there was a logical point to, hey, we have was a logical point to, hey, we have was a logical point to, hey, we have rules. we can't let you break these rules. we can't let you break these rules. we can't let you break these rules for your dollar sign whatever if rules for your dollar sign whatever if rules for your dollar sign whatever if everybody else is doing their company everybody else is doing their company everybody else is doing their company properly you know and following this set properly you know and following this set properly you know and following this set of rules so so how do we evolve that to of rules so so how do we evolve that to of rules so so how do we evolve that to protect which is the top mandate the protect which is the top mandate the protect which is the top mandate the consumer consumer consumer >> well that's a great question I think the >> well that's a great question I think the >> well that's a great question I think the real problem has been uh definitionially real problem has been uh definitionially real problem has been uh definitionially and so the the kind of the very vague and so the the kind of the very vague and so the the kind of the very vague lines and so people weren't sure they lines and so people weren't sure they lines and so people weren't sure they were and as Mike was talking about you were and as Mike was talking about you were and as Mike was talking about you know people play paid lawyers a lot of know people play paid lawyers a lot of know people play paid lawyers a lot of money to try to do it. Some lawyers just money to try to do it. Some lawyers just money to try to do it. Some lawyers just gave happy talk and then people got in gave happy talk and then people got in gave happy talk and then people got in trouble uh with the SEC and other trouble uh with the SEC and other trouble uh with the SEC and other lawyers just said forget it. Go lawyers just said forget it. Go lawyers just said forget it. Go offshore. You know, you there's no use offshore. You know, you there's no use offshore. You know, you there's no use to even trying here in the United to even trying here in the United to even trying here in the United States. So, that's part of what uh you States. So, that's part of what uh you States. So, that's part of what uh you know, Mike and I are trying to do as far know, Mike and I are trying to do as far know, Mike and I are trying to do as far as harmonize. So, where if it's a as harmonize. So, where if it's a as harmonize. So, where if it's a tokenized security, then that's one tokenized security, then that's one tokenized security, then that's one thing under the SEC's uh rule book. But thing under the SEC's uh rule book. But thing under the SEC's uh rule book. But if it's things like uh tokenized uh oh if it's things like uh tokenized uh oh if it's things like uh tokenized uh oh so digital coin a digital token sorry or so digital coin a digital token sorry or so digital coin a digital token sorry or digital tools or digital collectibles digital tools or digital collectibles digital tools or digital collectibles then those sorts of things uh fall under then those sorts of things uh fall under then those sorts of things uh fall under the CFTC's um oversight and their uh the CFTC's um oversight and their uh the CFTC's um oversight and their uh rule book is is really more opposite for rule book is is really more opposite for rule book is is really more opposite for these sorts of things than ours is. But these sorts of things than ours is. But these sorts of things than ours is. But you have to have a logical oversight you have to have a logical oversight you have to have a logical oversight over things like that to prevent fraud over things like that to prevent fraud over things like that to prevent fraud because the one thing that really uh you because the one thing that really uh you because the one thing that really uh you know uh attracts people to our markets know uh attracts people to our markets know uh attracts people to our markets from overseas is that they uh perceive from overseas is that they uh perceive from overseas is that they uh perceive that there is you know that fraudsters that there is you know that fraudsters that there is you know that fraudsters do get caught and you know we have do get caught and you know we have do get caught and you know we have protections around as we've been talking protections around as we've been talking protections around as we've been talking about inside trading and then things about inside trading and then things about inside trading and then things like that trading on material non-public like that trading on material non-public like that trading on material non-public information by insiders that is you know information by insiders that is you know information by insiders that is you know so we have a robust So so we have a robust So so we have a robust So >> thing for that >> thing for that >> thing for that >> Mike unpack that for us and maybe you >> Mike unpack that for us and maybe you >> Mike unpack that for us and maybe you could add to it the role of uh sometimes could add to it the role of uh sometimes could add to it the role of uh sometimes we see celebrities promoting these we see celebrities promoting these we see celebrities promoting these things and it just feels like it's a bit things and it just feels like it's a bit things and it just feels like it's a bit of uh it was a bit out of control there of uh it was a bit out of control there of uh it was a bit out of control there for a bit and and your job is to make it for a bit and and your job is to make it for a bit and and your job is to make it controlled. So so what should the crypto controlled. So so what should the crypto controlled. So so what should the crypto community that wants to release utility community that wants to release utility community that wants to release utility tokens and participate here what do they tokens and participate here what do they tokens and participate here what do they need to know going forward? We have to need to know going forward? We have to need to know going forward? We have to separate the capital raising activity separate the capital raising activity separate the capital raising activity and selling something for the purpose of and selling something for the purpose of and selling something for the purpose of uh raising capital to form a business uh raising capital to form a business uh raising capital to form a business when you're going out there and giving when you're going out there and giving when you're going out there and giving folks the white papers and the business folks the white papers and the business folks the white papers and the business plans and making promises to them from plans and making promises to them from plans and making promises to them from the actual thing that people are buying. the actual thing that people are buying. the actual thing that people are buying. The tokens themselves in many of these The tokens themselves in many of these The tokens themselves in many of these cases are just goods. As chairman Atkins cases are just goods. As chairman Atkins cases are just goods. As chairman Atkins said, they could be a digital commodity, said, they could be a digital commodity, said, they could be a digital commodity, something that's an input for a network something that's an input for a network something that's an input for a network like Ethereum or Salana or anything else like Ethereum or Salana or anything else like Ethereum or Salana or anything else where you're using it for a function where you're using it for a function where you're using it for a function within the network. But the capital within the network. But the capital within the network. But the capital raise is something separate. And they raise is something separate. And they raise is something separate. And they could be collectibles like an NFT or a could be collectibles like an NFT or a could be collectibles like an NFT or a tool that you're using to run a a tool that you're using to run a a tool that you're using to run a a command on a network. That sort of command on a network. That sort of command on a network. That sort of stuff. I mean, they're they're they're stuff. I mean, they're they're they're stuff. I mean, they're they're they're commodities or they're goods or or commodities or they're goods or or commodities or they're goods or or things that potentially neither of us things that potentially neither of us things that potentially neither of us regulate. uh we don't go out and regulate. uh we don't go out and regulate. uh we don't go out and regulate widgets that are sold as part regulate widgets that are sold as part regulate widgets that are sold as part of a capital raising. The the SEC's of a capital raising. The the SEC's of a capital raising. The the SEC's brought many cases over the years brought many cases over the years brought many cases over the years related to fundraising with chinchillaas related to fundraising with chinchillaas related to fundraising with chinchillaas and whiskey barrels and all sorts of and whiskey barrels and all sorts of and whiskey barrels and all sorts of things, but we've not had those uh things, but we've not had those uh things, but we've not had those uh trading as securities in our markets and trading as securities in our markets and trading as securities in our markets and and we don't want that for the digital and we don't want that for the digital and we don't want that for the digital world either. As we start to wrap here, world either. As we start to wrap here, world either. As we start to wrap here, I have a final question which is I have a final question which is I have a final question which is both of you sit on top again as I said both of you sit on top again as I said both of you sit on top again as I said the most in my opinion important capital the most in my opinion important capital the most in my opinion important capital market in the world. You guys are market in the world. You guys are market in the world. You guys are responsible for the well functioning responsible for the well functioning responsible for the well functioning and the pass through of literally tens and the pass through of literally tens and the pass through of literally tens and tens of trillions of dollars. You and tens of trillions of dollars. You and tens of trillions of dollars. You are responsible for enabling and not are responsible for enabling and not are responsible for enabling and not slowing down just the great vibrancy of slowing down just the great vibrancy of slowing down just the great vibrancy of the American economy as reflected in the American economy as reflected in the American economy as reflected in these markets. these markets. these markets. That's the upside. The downside is that That's the upside. The downside is that That's the upside. The downside is that that also comes with a lot of pressure that also comes with a lot of pressure that also comes with a lot of pressure when you're in the bowels of the job. when you're in the bowels of the job. when you're in the bowels of the job. And I obviously I don't know what that's And I obviously I don't know what that's And I obviously I don't know what that's like every day. But what are the couple like every day. But what are the couple like every day. But what are the couple of things that the two of you think of things that the two of you think of things that the two of you think about at night? What are the critical about at night? What are the critical about at night? What are the critical risks to this experiment that you just risks to this experiment that you just risks to this experiment that you just know you have to get right or the know you have to get right or the know you have to get right or the critical issues that in the next year or critical issues that in the next year or critical issues that in the next year or two you must get right for all of this two you must get right for all of this two you must get right for all of this to continue? Maybe Mike, we'll start to continue? Maybe Mike, we'll start to continue? Maybe Mike, we'll start with you and then Paul. with you and then Paul. with you and then Paul. >> Two big things concern me. The first has >> Two big things concern me. The first has >> Two big things concern me. The first has been this push of innovation offshore. been this push of innovation offshore. been this push of innovation offshore. We've got to get it back here in the We've got to get it back here in the We've got to get it back here in the United States. That's really what's United States. That's really what's United States. That's really what's built this country over the years. built this country over the years. built this country over the years. Thomas Ederson didn't have to go ask for Thomas Ederson didn't have to go ask for Thomas Ederson didn't have to go ask for permission to go innovate. We need to permission to go innovate. We need to permission to go innovate. We need to make sure that our builders, our make sure that our builders, our make sure that our builders, our visionaries, our entrepreneurs have the visionaries, our entrepreneurs have the visionaries, our entrepreneurs have the courage and and the confidence to come courage and and the confidence to come courage and and the confidence to come and and develop new things and build and and develop new things and build and and develop new things and build here in our financial markets. And that here in our financial markets. And that here in our financial markets. And that means blockchain, that means artificial means blockchain, that means artificial means blockchain, that means artificial intelligence, that means prediction intelligence, that means prediction intelligence, that means prediction markets. We'll set the rules for it. markets. We'll set the rules for it. markets. We'll set the rules for it. make sure that it's possible to do it, make sure that it's possible to do it, make sure that it's possible to do it, but we don't want everyone fleeing to but we don't want everyone fleeing to but we don't want everyone fleeing to the Cayman Islands and the Bahamas and the Cayman Islands and the Bahamas and the Cayman Islands and the Bahamas and and Russia to go do this stuff. So, so and Russia to go do this stuff. So, so and Russia to go do this stuff. So, so that's really concerning to me. I want that's really concerning to me. I want that's really concerning to me. I want to make sure that that folks are back to make sure that that folks are back to make sure that that folks are back here in the US. The second piece, of here in the US. The second piece, of here in the US. The second piece, of course, is the the risk to our system if course, is the the risk to our system if course, is the the risk to our system if we've got too much manipulation in we've got too much manipulation in we've got too much manipulation in trading fraud. I mean, why not trade uh trading fraud. I mean, why not trade uh trading fraud. I mean, why not trade uh you know, elsewhere and and there's real you know, elsewhere and and there's real you know, elsewhere and and there's real risk to our investors. And so making risk to our investors. And so making risk to our investors. And so making sure that we have the right controls, sure that we have the right controls, sure that we have the right controls, customer protections, uh we can't have customer protections, uh we can't have customer protections, uh we can't have another FTX in the United States where another FTX in the United States where another FTX in the United States where funds are lost and and there's uh an funds are lost and and there's uh an funds are lost and and there's uh an absolute fraud on on our American absolute fraud on on our American absolute fraud on on our American people. So So that's a really critical people. So So that's a really critical people. So So that's a really critical concern balancing innovation with our concern balancing innovation with our concern balancing innovation with our financial system, the integrity of our financial system, the integrity of our financial system, the integrity of our markets, and we're going to do it, but markets, and we're going to do it, but markets, and we're going to do it, but it's it's definitely hard work ahead of it's it's definitely hard work ahead of it's it's definitely hard work ahead of us. And for me um so I mean I I agree us. And for me um so I mean I I agree us. And for me um so I mean I I agree completely with the innovation point completely with the innovation point completely with the innovation point that uh you know we need to uh make sure that uh you know we need to uh make sure that uh you know we need to uh make sure that uh we are allowing people to that uh we are allowing people to that uh we are allowing people to innovate here on shore and FTX1 is a innovate here on shore and FTX1 is a innovate here on shore and FTX1 is a great point where uh there was one part great point where uh there was one part great point where uh there was one part of FTX that was didn't implode with the of FTX that was didn't implode with the of FTX that was didn't implode with the rest of it and that was their investment rest of it and that was their investment rest of it and that was their investment in uh swap's trading platform called in uh swap's trading platform called in uh swap's trading platform called Ledger X was which was supervised by the Ledger X was which was supervised by the Ledger X was which was supervised by the CFTC and examined and they had um uh CFTC and examined and they had um uh CFTC and examined and they had um uh they they had their uh accounts they they had their uh accounts they they had their uh accounts segregated and all that. So no customers segregated and all that. So no customers segregated and all that. So no customers uh uh lost any money through that and uh uh lost any money through that and uh uh lost any money through that and and it still lives on uh you know today. and it still lives on uh you know today. and it still lives on uh you know today. So um so my worry is that we're fighting So um so my worry is that we're fighting So um so my worry is that we're fighting always the last battle. You know the always the last battle. You know the always the last battle. You know the French built the Majino line and that French built the Majino line and that French built the Majino line and that didn't work very well and then uh so we didn't work very well and then uh so we didn't work very well and then uh so we had the same thing coming out of the had the same thing coming out of the had the same thing coming out of the financial crisis. So we have to think financial crisis. So we have to think financial crisis. So we have to think ahead. We're confronting a lot of new ahead. We're confronting a lot of new ahead. We're confronting a lot of new challenges. So artificial intelligence challenges. So artificial intelligence challenges. So artificial intelligence of course you know is uh you know of course you know is uh you know of course you know is uh you know developing very quickly and um but we're developing very quickly and um but we're developing very quickly and um but we're also seeing it on the fraud side. I also seeing it on the fraud side. I also seeing it on the fraud side. I mean, this horrible stories I hear about mean, this horrible stories I hear about mean, this horrible stories I hear about uh people whose uh um who've lost their uh people whose uh um who've lost their uh people whose uh um who've lost their entire retirement uh um nest egg through entire retirement uh um nest egg through entire retirement uh um nest egg through fraud where they're confidence people fraud where they're confidence people fraud where they're confidence people who uh you know through all sorts of who uh you know through all sorts of who uh you know through all sorts of manipulative types of communications manipulative types of communications manipulative types of communications then uh draw people in and get them to then uh draw people in and get them to then uh draw people in and get them to uh you know send off their their money uh you know send off their their money uh you know send off their their money elsewhere or even their uh their elsewhere or even their uh their elsewhere or even their uh their Coinbase account or things like that Coinbase account or things like that Coinbase account or things like that where they give passwords away with the where they give passwords away with the where they give passwords away with the you know these confidence artists out you know these confidence artists out you know these confidence artists out there. So we have to be attuned to that. there. So we have to be attuned to that. there. So we have to be attuned to that. We have to be the cop on the beat We have to be the cop on the beat We have to be the cop on the beat because that's the real threat uh that because that's the real threat uh that because that's the real threat uh that will uh lead people not to uh will uh lead people not to uh will uh lead people not to uh necessarily um you know invest their necessarily um you know invest their necessarily um you know invest their money here. But but I think you know we money here. But but I think you know we money here. But but I think you know we are a cop on the beat. We're um you know are a cop on the beat. We're um you know are a cop on the beat. We're um you know out to make sure that we can find the out to make sure that we can find the out to make sure that we can find the bad guys, but we can't then put too much bad guys, but we can't then put too much bad guys, but we can't then put too much overwhelming uh you know restrictions on overwhelming uh you know restrictions on overwhelming uh you know restrictions on the good guys so that they can't the good guys so that they can't the good guys so that they can't innovate and can't come out with new innovate and can't come out with new innovate and can't come out with new products. products. products. >> Those are great answers. I think both >> Those are great answers. I think both >> Those are great answers. I think both opportunity and policing. I just want to opportunity and policing. I just want to opportunity and policing. I just want to end with a final thought. As these end with a final thought. As these end with a final thought. As these markets open up, wagering stocks, markets open up, wagering stocks, markets open up, wagering stocks, crypto, we do have an issue, a second crypto, we do have an issue, a second crypto, we do have an issue, a second order effect that's happening. young men order effect that's happening. young men order effect that's happening. young men 18 to 30, 45% report that they've had a 18 to 30, 45% report that they've had a 18 to 30, 45% report that they've had a problem with wagering gambling and 10% problem with wagering gambling and 10% problem with wagering gambling and 10% meet the addiction criteria. A third meet the addiction criteria. A third meet the addiction criteria. A third have placed a bet. The upside to this in have placed a bet. The upside to this in have placed a bet. The upside to this in my mind is we have a generation my mind is we have a generation my mind is we have a generation generation bet that understands capital generation bet that understands capital generation bet that understands capital formation markets and how to participate formation markets and how to participate formation markets and how to participate in them. But we do have a downside. in them. But we do have a downside. in them. But we do have a downside. >> Outcomes. Yeah. >> Outcomes. Yeah. >> Outcomes. Yeah. >> Outcomes. Yes. and to really think about >> Outcomes. Yes. and to really think about >> Outcomes. Yes. and to really think about that. There's obviously a downside here, that. There's obviously a downside here, that. There's obviously a downside here, which is a very young developing brain which is a very young developing brain which is a very young developing brain might not be ready for that. So, so Mike might not be ready for that. So, so Mike might not be ready for that. So, so Mike and then and then Chairman Atkins, what and then and then Chairman Atkins, what and then and then Chairman Atkins, what are your thoughts on how to protect are your thoughts on how to protect are your thoughts on how to protect these young men who, you know, they're these young men who, you know, they're these young men who, you know, they're they're excited about participating in they're excited about participating in they're excited about participating in these markets, but maybe their brains these markets, but maybe their brains these markets, but maybe their brains aren't fully formed and ready to take on aren't fully formed and ready to take on aren't fully formed and ready to take on that responsibility? that responsibility? that responsibility? >> I think education's critical here. We >> I think education's critical here. We >> I think education's critical here. We need to make sure that our market need to make sure that our market need to make sure that our market participants are providing information participants are providing information participants are providing information to participants and we don't regulate to participants and we don't regulate to participants and we don't regulate the casinos and the gambling and all of the casinos and the gambling and all of the casinos and the gambling and all of that and and I but I do believe that that and and I but I do believe that that and and I but I do believe that that is a a key piece of their that is a a key piece of their that is a a key piece of their initiative as well to make sure that initiative as well to make sure that initiative as well to make sure that folks are informed when they're coming folks are informed when they're coming folks are informed when they're coming into to the casinos. We should do the into to the casinos. We should do the into to the casinos. We should do the same at the federal level. make sure same at the federal level. make sure same at the federal level. make sure that our participants voluntarily of that our participants voluntarily of that our participants voluntarily of course this isn't necessarily something course this isn't necessarily something course this isn't necessarily something that that we mandate on our derivatives that that we mandate on our derivatives that that we mandate on our derivatives exchanges but I do think it's an exchanges but I do think it's an exchanges but I do think it's an important thing to be informing the important thing to be informing the important thing to be informing the public and of course we've got really public and of course we've got really public and of course we've got really robust standards on brokers and on our robust standards on brokers and on our robust standards on brokers and on our exchanges and they're making sure that exchanges and they're making sure that exchanges and they're making sure that there's uh the the persons that are there's uh the the persons that are there's uh the the persons that are participating in the markets have the participating in the markets have the participating in the markets have the ability to participate that they're ability to participate that they're ability to participate that they're suitable to invest and and participate suitable to invest and and participate suitable to invest and and participate in our markets and I think those in our markets and I think those in our markets and I think those controls combined with some education controls combined with some education controls combined with some education are really going to be important here are really going to be important here are really going to be important here >> I agree with that And but it's not just >> I agree with that And but it's not just >> I agree with that And but it's not just education of the um in many cases education of the um in many cases education of the um in many cases children or and uh you know adult young children or and uh you know adult young children or and uh you know adult young men and and women too but it's also men and and women too but it's also men and and women too but it's also their parents uh you know especially for their parents uh you know especially for their parents uh you know especially for the children where I think there is a the children where I think there is a the children where I think there is a large ignorance on uh the parents' part large ignorance on uh the parents' part large ignorance on uh the parents' part as to you know what their kids are doing as to you know what their kids are doing as to you know what their kids are doing and with their phones or elsewhere and and with their phones or elsewhere and and with their phones or elsewhere and you know getting involved in these you know getting involved in these you know getting involved in these things. So uh you know I hear that from things. So uh you know I hear that from things. So uh you know I hear that from a lot of my friends. So just uh you know a lot of my friends. So just uh you know a lot of my friends. So just uh you know apocryphily there but uh so that's we we apocryphily there but uh so that's we we apocryphily there but uh so that's we we shouldn't forget that the schools are shouldn't forget that the schools are shouldn't forget that the schools are important as well but the signs of you important as well but the signs of you important as well but the signs of you know that sort of uh addiction you know know that sort of uh addiction you know know that sort of uh addiction you know are really uh you know important to to are really uh you know important to to are really uh you know important to to recognize uh that and then take action. recognize uh that and then take action. recognize uh that and then take action. But we have the same thing with other But we have the same thing with other But we have the same thing with other sorts of gambling lotto or lotteryies sorts of gambling lotto or lotteryies sorts of gambling lotto or lotteryies and that sort of thing. So, it's not and that sort of thing. So, it's not and that sort of thing. So, it's not just in the securities markets or crypto just in the securities markets or crypto just in the securities markets or crypto markets or elsewhere. Um, but it's uh markets or elsewhere. Um, but it's uh markets or elsewhere. Um, but it's uh also on everyday things that we have to also on everyday things that we have to also on everyday things that we have to really watch out for. really watch out for. really watch out for. >> I love your suggestion, Mike, because uh >> I love your suggestion, Mike, because uh >> I love your suggestion, Mike, because uh I I noticed Robin Hood now if you want I I noticed Robin Hood now if you want I I noticed Robin Hood now if you want to go trade something complex, puts, to go trade something complex, puts, to go trade something complex, puts, calls, you know, spreads, everything, it calls, you know, spreads, everything, it calls, you know, spreads, everything, it forces you to go through a little wizard forces you to go through a little wizard forces you to go through a little wizard to make sure you understand it and and to make sure you understand it and and to make sure you understand it and and to teach you what exactly you're doing. to teach you what exactly you're doing. to teach you what exactly you're doing. So, I think education so critical and it So, I think education so critical and it So, I think education so critical and it can exist at the platform level. This can exist at the platform level. This can exist at the platform level. This has been an incredible hour plus. Uh, I has been an incredible hour plus. Uh, I has been an incredible hour plus. Uh, I want to thank you two gentlemen for want to thank you two gentlemen for want to thank you two gentlemen for joining us here on the All-In interview joining us here on the All-In interview joining us here on the All-In interview and we'll see you all next time. and we'll see you all next time. and we'll see you all next time. Bye-bye. Bye-bye. Bye-bye. >> Thanks, gentlemen.