"They’re Building an AI God They Can’t Control” - Tristan Harris

What is the journey of how you arrived What is the journey of how you arrived thinking about the problems of AI? >> [gasps] >> [gasps] >> Um well, most people know me or our work >> Um well, most people know me or our work >> Um well, most people know me or our work through the film The Social Dilemma and through the film The Social Dilemma and through the film The Social Dilemma and I used to be a design ethicist at Google I used to be a design ethicist at Google I used to be a design ethicist at Google in 2012, 2013. So that basically meant in 2012, 2013. So that basically meant in 2012, 2013. So that basically meant how do you ethically design technology how do you ethically design technology how do you ethically design technology that is going to reshape, especially the that is going to reshape, especially the that is going to reshape, especially the attention and information environment of attention and information environment of attention and information environment of humanity. So it's like there it was at humanity. So it's like there it was at humanity. So it's like there it was at Google, it was 2012, 2013. This is in Google, it was 2012, 2013. This is in Google, it was 2012, 2013. This is in the heat of the kind of social media the heat of the kind of social media the heat of the kind of social media boom. I think Instagram had just been boom. I think Instagram had just been boom. I think Instagram had just been bought by Facebook. My friends in bought by Facebook. My friends in bought by Facebook. My friends in college started Instagram. So like I was college started Instagram. So like I was college started Instagram. So like I was part of this cohort and milieu of people part of this cohort and milieu of people part of this cohort and milieu of people who really built this technology that who really built this technology that who really built this technology that the rest of the world just thought was the rest of the world just thought was the rest of the world just thought was natural. Like this is just drinking natural. Like this is just drinking natural. Like this is just drinking water. Like I just drank Instagram. I water. Like I just drank Instagram. I water. Like I just drank Instagram. I just live in this environment. And so just live in this environment. And so just live in this environment. And so while like I saw billions of people while like I saw billions of people while like I saw billions of people enter into this psychological habitat enter into this psychological habitat enter into this psychological habitat that I knew the handful of like five or that I knew the handful of like five or that I knew the handful of like five or six people that were designing and six people that were designing and six people that were designing and tweaking it and making it work a certain tweaking it and making it work a certain tweaking it and making it work a certain way. way. way. >> Yeah, exactly. And I think that that's >> Yeah, exactly. And I think that that's >> Yeah, exactly. And I think that that's just like a fundamental thing I want just like a fundamental thing I want just like a fundamental thing I want people to get is people to get is people to get is you know, you think of technology like you know, you think of technology like you know, you think of technology like it just lands and it's just inevitable it just lands and it's just inevitable it just lands and it's just inevitable and then there's just nothing we can do and then there's just nothing we can do and then there's just nothing we can do and it just comes from above and it's and it just comes from above and it's and it just comes from above and it's like there are human beings making like there are human beings making like there are human beings making choices. And you know, as someone who choices. And you know, as someone who choices. And you know, as someone who grew up in the era of, you know, the grew up in the era of, you know, the grew up in the era of, you know, the Macintosh, like my co-founder So I have Macintosh, like my co-founder So I have Macintosh, like my co-founder So I have a nonprofit called the Center for Humane a nonprofit called the Center for Humane a nonprofit called the Center for Humane Technology. Technology. Technology. My co-founder Aza Raskin had his father My co-founder Aza Raskin had his father My co-founder Aza Raskin had his father invented the Macintosh project before invented the Macintosh project before invented the Macintosh project before Steve Jobs took it over. So this is the Steve Jobs took it over. So this is the Steve Jobs took it over. So this is the original Macintosh, you know, the thing original Macintosh, you know, the thing original Macintosh, you know, the thing that we now the MacBook, the iMac, the that we now the MacBook, the iMac, the that we now the MacBook, the iMac, the MacBook Pro, all of that started with MacBook Pro, all of that started with MacBook Pro, all of that started with his father Jeff Raskin and the idea of his father Jeff Raskin and the idea of his father Jeff Raskin and the idea of creating humane technology where creating humane technology where creating humane technology where technology could be choicefully designed technology could be choicefully designed technology could be choicefully designed to be really easy to use, to be to be really easy to use, to be to be really easy to use, to be accessible, to be an empowering accessible, to be an empowering accessible, to be an empowering extension of our humanity. Like a cello, extension of our humanity. Like a cello, extension of our humanity. Like a cello, like a piano, like a creative tool. Like like a piano, like a creative tool. Like like a piano, like a creative tool. Like if you're a video person, you can make if you're a video person, you can make if you're a video person, you can make films and videos. And just so people films and videos. And just so people films and videos. And just so people understand because we're going to understand because we're going to understand because we're going to probably be talking about some darker probably be talking about some darker probably be talking about some darker things on this podcast, the premise of things on this podcast, the premise of things on this podcast, the premise of all this is not to be a speaker of doom all this is not to be a speaker of doom all this is not to be a speaker of doom or something like that. It's to say I or something like that. It's to say I or something like that. It's to say I want to live in a world where technology want to live in a world where technology want to live in a world where technology is in service of people and connection is in service of people and connection is in service of people and connection and all of the things that matter to us and all of the things that matter to us and all of the things that matter to us as humans and then have technology wrap as humans and then have technology wrap as humans and then have technology wrap around ergonomically us to create that. around ergonomically us to create that. around ergonomically us to create that. So that was kind of a side journey. So that was kind of a side journey. So that was kind of a side journey. There I was at Google in 2012, 2013 There I was at Google in 2012, 2013 There I was at Google in 2012, 2013 and I saw and I saw and I saw how essentially there was this arms race how essentially there was this arms race how essentially there was this arms race for human attention and whichever for human attention and whichever for human attention and whichever company was willing to go lower on the company was willing to go lower on the company was willing to go lower on the brainstem to manipulate human brainstem to manipulate human brainstem to manipulate human psychology. This is exploiting like a psychology. This is exploiting like a psychology. This is exploiting like a back door in the human mind. So think of back door in the human mind. So think of back door in the human mind. So think of it just like software has back doors and it just like software has back doors and it just like software has back doors and zero-day vulnerabilities, you can hack zero-day vulnerabilities, you can hack zero-day vulnerabilities, you can hack software. The human mind has software. The human mind has software. The human mind has vulnerabilities. vulnerabilities. vulnerabilities. Um and as a magician as a kid, I Um and as a magician as a kid, I Um and as a magician as a kid, I understood some of those. understood some of those. understood some of those. Studying at a lab at Stanford called the Studying at a lab at Stanford called the Studying at a lab at Stanford called the Persuasive Technology Lab where a lot of Persuasive Technology Lab where a lot of Persuasive Technology Lab where a lot of the Instagram co-founders had studied the Instagram co-founders had studied the Instagram co-founders had studied I understood these psychological I understood these psychological I understood these psychological influences dynamics. And so it wasn't influences dynamics. And so it wasn't influences dynamics. And so it wasn't just that we were making technology in just that we were making technology in just that we were making technology in this beautiful and empowering kind of this beautiful and empowering kind of this beautiful and empowering kind of Macintosh way. It's that basically more Macintosh way. It's that basically more Macintosh way. It's that basically more and more of my friends were sucked into and more of my friends were sucked into and more of my friends were sucked into developing technology to hack human developing technology to hack human developing technology to hack human psychology. psychology. psychology. And so I saw that problem, I became And so I saw that problem, I became And so I saw that problem, I became concerned about it and I made a concerned about it and I made a concerned about it and I made a presentation at Google. presentation at Google. presentation at Google. Um and I feel like I repeat the story Um and I feel like I repeat the story Um and I feel like I repeat the story everywhere, but it's just important for everywhere, but it's just important for everywhere, but it's just important for my history, I guess. I made a my history, I guess. I made a my history, I guess. I made a presentation saying never before in presentation saying never before in presentation saying never before in history have 50 designers in San history have 50 designers in San history have 50 designers in San Francisco basically through their Francisco basically through their Francisco basically through their choices rewired the entire psychological choices rewired the entire psychological choices rewired the entire psychological habitat of humanity. habitat of humanity. habitat of humanity. And we need to get this right. We have a And we need to get this right. We have a And we need to get this right. We have a moral responsibility to get this right. moral responsibility to get this right. moral responsibility to get this right. Um and I sent it to 50 people at Google Um and I sent it to 50 people at Google Um and I sent it to 50 people at Google and when I clicked on the presentation and when I clicked on the presentation and when I clicked on the presentation the next day on the top right of Google the next day on the top right of Google the next day on the top right of Google Slides, it shows you the number of Slides, it shows you the number of Slides, it shows you the number of simultaneous viewers. You know how that simultaneous viewers. You know how that simultaneous viewers. You know how that works? works? works? And it had like 150 simultaneous viewers And it had like 150 simultaneous viewers And it had like 150 simultaneous viewers and then 500 simultaneous viewers and so and then 500 simultaneous viewers and so and then 500 simultaneous viewers and so it's like oh, this is spreading it's like oh, this is spreading it's like oh, this is spreading throughout the whole company. Uh and throughout the whole company. Uh and throughout the whole company. Uh and that's what led to me becoming a design that's what led to me becoming a design that's what led to me becoming a design ethicist where I had to research and ask ethicist where I had to research and ask ethicist where I had to research and ask the questions, what does it mean to the questions, what does it mean to the questions, what does it mean to ethically design and persuade people's ethically design and persuade people's ethically design and persuade people's psychological vulnerabilities when you psychological vulnerabilities when you psychological vulnerabilities when you you can't not make choices about the you can't not make choices about the you can't not make choices about the psychological habitat. You have to make psychological habitat. You have to make psychological habitat. You have to make a choice about how infinite whether a choice about how infinite whether a choice about how infinite whether you're going to do infinite scroll or you're going to do infinite scroll or you're going to do infinite scroll or not or autoplay or not or notifications not or autoplay or not or notifications not or autoplay or not or notifications or not or these 10 people followed you or not or these 10 people followed you or not or these 10 people followed you or not. Like what does it mean to or not. Like what does it mean to or not. Like what does it mean to ethically make those choices? That is you being concerned about some That is you being concerned about some of the ways that a misalignment of of the ways that a misalignment of of the ways that a misalignment of technology with what human flourishing technology with what human flourishing technology with what human flourishing might look like. Yeah, and what's how might look like. Yeah, and what's how might look like. Yeah, and what's how society I think people are afraid to say society I think people are afraid to say society I think people are afraid to say like like like when you make a bridge when you make a bridge when you make a bridge there's a physics to whether that bridge there's a physics to whether that bridge there's a physics to whether that bridge will sustain or whether it will fall will sustain or whether it will fall will sustain or whether it will fall apart, right? Like and it's not magic. apart, right? Like and it's not magic. apart, right? Like and it's not magic. We don't say like oh, like who would We don't say like oh, like who would We don't say like oh, like who would have known that that bridge would fall have known that that bridge would fall have known that that bridge would fall apart. No, we have a science of bridges apart. No, we have a science of bridges apart. No, we have a science of bridges um and and mechanical engineering and um and and mechanical engineering and um and and mechanical engineering and civil engineering. civil engineering. civil engineering. And with technology and human And with technology and human And with technology and human psychology, there's a science to the psychology, there's a science to the psychology, there's a science to the dopamine system. There is a science to dopamine system. There is a science to dopamine system. There is a science to confirmation bias in our psychology and confirmation bias in our psychology and confirmation bias in our psychology and how we tend to perceive information how we tend to perceive information how we tend to perceive information through our tribal in-group. Like we see through our tribal in-group. Like we see through our tribal in-group. Like we see things through the political tribe that things through the political tribe that things through the political tribe that we're part of. we're part of. we're part of. Um and if you understand that science, Um and if you understand that science, Um and if you understand that science, you can understand whether or not you can understand whether or not you can understand whether or not technology is manipulating that. So one technology is manipulating that. So one technology is manipulating that. So one of the core things I think we were of the core things I think we were of the core things I think we were trying to do in that first chapter of trying to do in that first chapter of trying to do in that first chapter of work and this again starting in 2013 um work and this again starting in 2013 um work and this again starting in 2013 um is break through this idea that is break through this idea that is break through this idea that technology is neutral and that we could technology is neutral and that we could technology is neutral and that we could never know what what's good for people never know what what's good for people never know what what's good for people or that um something could be bad for or that um something could be bad for or that um something could be bad for people. Like I deliberately saw people people. Like I deliberately saw people people. Like I deliberately saw people make short-form auto-playing videos that make short-form auto-playing videos that make short-form auto-playing videos that then created the brain rot economy that then created the brain rot economy that then created the brain rot economy that we're now living in. Mhm. And we're now living in. Mhm. And we're now living in. Mhm. And it seems like a natural progression to it seems like a natural progression to it seems like a natural progression to go from I'm concerned about some go from I'm concerned about some go from I'm concerned about some specific types of technology use and how specific types of technology use and how specific types of technology use and how that interacts with humans to I'm that interacts with humans to I'm that interacts with humans to I'm specifically not technology use but specifically not technology use but specifically not technology use but technology designed for certain outcomes technology designed for certain outcomes technology designed for certain outcomes of usage. Really critical thing cuz we of usage. Really critical thing cuz we of usage. Really critical thing cuz we want to put attention on the design not want to put attention on the design not want to put attention on the design not just how people are using it. just how people are using it. just how people are using it. >> Yeah, understood. >> Yeah, understood. >> Yeah, understood. >> Yeah. Uh >> Yeah. Uh >> Yeah. Uh seems like a natural progression to get seems like a natural progression to get seems like a natural progression to get concerned about a burgeoning AI concerned about a burgeoning AI concerned about a burgeoning AI landscape. landscape. landscape. Well, what happened was uh my team at Well, what happened was uh my team at Well, what happened was uh my team at Center for Humane Technology, our Center for Humane Technology, our Center for Humane Technology, our nonprofit, we got calls from people nonprofit, we got calls from people nonprofit, we got calls from people inside of the AI labs. So, you know, we inside of the AI labs. So, you know, we inside of the AI labs. So, you know, we were in San Francisco, we know people were in San Francisco, we know people were in San Francisco, we know people work at all the tech companies we have work at all the tech companies we have work at all the tech companies we have for the last decade. And suddenly in for the last decade. And suddenly in for the last decade. And suddenly in January of 202023, January of 202023, January of 202023, this is like 10 years later now. this is like 10 years later now. this is like 10 years later now. Uh I got calls from people inside the Uh I got calls from people inside the Uh I got calls from people inside the major AI labs saying that the arms race major AI labs saying that the arms race major AI labs saying that the arms race dynamic was out of control and that huge dynamic was out of control and that huge dynamic was out of control and that huge leaps in capabilities, this is basically leaps in capabilities, this is basically leaps in capabilities, this is basically speaking about GPT-4 before it came out. speaking about GPT-4 before it came out. speaking about GPT-4 before it came out. Um GPT-4, you know, could pass the bar Um GPT-4, you know, could pass the bar Um GPT-4, you know, could pass the bar exam, you know, get very high results in exam, you know, get very high results in exam, you know, get very high results in the MCAT was producing incredibly the MCAT was producing incredibly the MCAT was producing incredibly powerful, like passed the SATs, like powerful, like passed the SATs, like powerful, like passed the SATs, like very powerful AI that suddenly appeared very powerful AI that suddenly appeared very powerful AI that suddenly appeared out of nowhere. And these people who out of nowhere. And these people who out of nowhere. And these people who reached out to us basically said this is reached out to us basically said this is reached out to us basically said this is really dangerous. Will you use your really dangerous. Will you use your really dangerous. Will you use your connections, use your connections in DC, connections, use your connections in DC, connections, use your connections in DC, you know, go wake up the world, wake up you know, go wake up the world, wake up you know, go wake up the world, wake up the institutions, let them know that the institutions, let them know that the institutions, let them know that this is coming because it's not safe this is coming because it's not safe this is coming because it's not safe what's about to happen. what's about to happen. what's about to happen. Why is AI distinct from other kinds of Why is AI distinct from other kinds of Why is AI distinct from other kinds of technologies? technologies? technologies? Well, let's get to that. So I think the Well, let's get to that. So I think the Well, let's get to that. So I think the thing that is most difficult for people thing that is most difficult for people thing that is most difficult for people to get is to get is to get is um up until now technology progressed in um up until now technology progressed in um up until now technology progressed in a very like we're kind of adding layers a very like we're kind of adding layers a very like we're kind of adding layers to a stack kind of way. Like we build a to a stack kind of way. Like we build a to a stack kind of way. Like we build a networking stack, we build a user networking stack, we build a user networking stack, we build a user interface stack. And as you develop the interface stack. And as you develop the interface stack. And as you develop the stack, you're kind of just adding layers stack, you're kind of just adding layers stack, you're kind of just adding layers and layers and layers. And the and layers and layers. And the and layers and layers. And the technology that we live in was coded technology that we live in was coded technology that we live in was coded manually, like line by line. Like when manually, like line by line. Like when manually, like line by line. Like when the computer sees this, do this. When the computer sees this, do this. When the computer sees this, do this. When the computer sees this, do this. And the computer sees this, do this. And the computer sees this, do this. And then people contribute all this code then people contribute all this code then people contribute all this code over 30, 40, 50 years on GitHub and in over 30, 40, 50 years on GitHub and in over 30, 40, 50 years on GitHub and in operating systems and then you land in operating systems and then you land in operating systems and then you land in this technological world in which this technological world in which this technological world in which everything that happens in a computer is everything that happens in a computer is everything that happens in a computer is happening through logic and through happening through logic and through happening through logic and through human choice. human choice. human choice. What makes AI different is that you're What makes AI different is that you're What makes AI different is that you're designing and you're not really coding designing and you're not really coding designing and you're not really coding it, like I want it to do this. You're it, like I want it to do this. You're it, like I want it to do this. You're more like growing this digital brain more like growing this digital brain more like growing this digital brain that's trained on the entire internet that's trained on the entire internet that's trained on the entire internet and when you grow the digital brain, you and when you grow the digital brain, you and when you grow the digital brain, you don't know what it's capable of or what don't know what it's capable of or what don't know what it's capable of or what it's going to do. So think about it this it's going to do. So think about it this it's going to do. So think about it this way, like if I did a brain scan on your way, like if I did a brain scan on your way, like if I did a brain scan on your brain brain brain could I know from just a brain scan what could I know from just a brain scan what could I know from just a brain scan what you're capable of? you're capable of? you're capable of? No. I can see that this part of your No. I can see that this part of your No. I can see that this part of your brain lights up when you have that brain lights up when you have that brain lights up when you have that thought but I can't have a comprehensive thought but I can't have a comprehensive thought but I can't have a comprehensive picture of like what is everything that picture of like what is everything that picture of like what is everything that Chris is capable of? Can he do Chris is capable of? Can he do Chris is capable of? Can he do sociopathic manipulation and do better sociopathic manipulation and do better sociopathic manipulation and do better military strategy than the best US military strategy than the best US military strategy than the best US generals? Like I from the brain scan I generals? Like I from the brain scan I generals? Like I from the brain scan I can't tell that. Maybe you can. can't tell that. Maybe you can. can't tell that. Maybe you can. But But But so with AI, we are essentially, you so with AI, we are essentially, you so with AI, we are essentially, you know, when people hear about these huge know, when people hear about these huge know, when people hear about these huge data centers getting built out, like data centers getting built out, like data centers getting built out, like Facebook's building one or Meta's Facebook's building one or Meta's Facebook's building one or Meta's building one the size of Manhattan um building one the size of Manhattan um building one the size of Manhattan um and you ask like what is that what's and you ask like what is that what's and you ask like what is that what's going on there? It's like they're going on there? It's like they're going on there? It's like they're building a bigger and bigger digital building a bigger and bigger digital building a bigger and bigger digital brain that that's what goes from GPT-3 brain that that's what goes from GPT-3 brain that that's what goes from GPT-3 to GPT-4, you know, with more neurons. to GPT-4, you know, with more neurons. to GPT-4, you know, with more neurons. When you hear the number of parameters When you hear the number of parameters When you hear the number of parameters of an AI model, that's like essentially of an AI model, that's like essentially of an AI model, that's like essentially the number of neurons in an AI model. the number of neurons in an AI model. the number of neurons in an AI model. And what they found is that the more um And what they found is that the more um And what they found is that the more um GPUs and Nvidia chips you point at at GPUs and Nvidia chips you point at at GPUs and Nvidia chips you point at at sort of growing this digital brain the sort of growing this digital brain the sort of growing this digital brain the more intelligent it gets and the more it more intelligent it gets and the more it more intelligent it gets and the more it picks up capabilities that we didn't picks up capabilities that we didn't picks up capabilities that we didn't intentionally teach it. Like there was a intentionally teach it. Like there was a intentionally teach it. Like there was a famous example where you just trained it famous example where you just trained it famous example where you just trained it on the internet and then um you know, on the internet and then um you know, on the internet and then um you know, it's answering questions in English and it's answering questions in English and it's answering questions in English and suddenly it learns how to answer suddenly it learns how to answer suddenly it learns how to answer questions in Farsi. Like doing you know, questions in Farsi. Like doing you know, questions in Farsi. Like doing you know, in Q&A in in in a different language. in Q&A in in in a different language. in Q&A in in in a different language. And it no one taught it that language, And it no one taught it that language, And it no one taught it that language, it just sort of learned that on its own. it just sort of learned that on its own. it just sort of learned that on its own. Um and that's what's like weird about AI Um and that's what's like weird about AI Um and that's what's like weird about AI is that it's a black box, we don't is that it's a black box, we don't is that it's a black box, we don't really understand how it works and yet really understand how it works and yet really understand how it works and yet we're like making it more powerful much we're like making it more powerful much we're like making it more powerful much faster than understanding how it works. faster than understanding how it works. faster than understanding how it works. And that's what leads it to make these And that's what leads it to make these And that's what leads it to make these more unexpected behaviors that we aren't more unexpected behaviors that we aren't more unexpected behaviors that we aren't able to control. And I think we're going able to control. And I think we're going able to control. And I think we're going to get into some of those. to get into some of those. to get into some of those. A data center to the size of Manhattan. A data center to the size of Manhattan. A data center to the size of Manhattan. Yes. Where? Uh I don't remember where Yes. Where? Uh I don't remember where Yes. Where? Uh I don't remember where that one is, but it's it's crazy. that one is, but it's it's crazy. that one is, but it's it's crazy. There's like a overlay, someone can look There's like a overlay, someone can look There's like a overlay, someone can look it up. There's like an overlay where you it up. There's like an overlay where you it up. There's like an overlay where you can see the size of this data center and can see the size of this data center and can see the size of this data center and it's almost the size of Manhattan. it's almost the size of Manhattan. it's almost the size of Manhattan. And you can ask me again, there's more And you can ask me again, there's more And you can ask me again, there's more money. People should just get there's money. People should just get there's money. People should just get there's trillions of dollars going into this. trillions of dollars going into this. trillions of dollars going into this. There's more money going into this There's more money going into this There's more money going into this technology than all technologies of the technology than all technologies of the technology than all technologies of the past have ever been built. And we're past have ever been built. And we're past have ever been built. And we're releasing this technology faster than we releasing this technology faster than we releasing this technology faster than we released every other technology in released every other technology in released every other technology in history. It took something like 2 years history. It took something like 2 years history. It took something like 2 years for Instagram to go from zero users to for Instagram to go from zero users to for Instagram to go from zero users to 100 million users. And it took 2 months 100 million users. And it took 2 months 100 million users. And it took 2 months to go from zero to 100 million users for to go from zero to 100 million users for to go from zero to 100 million users for ChatGPT. ChatGPT. ChatGPT. Um and of course, they're going from Um and of course, they're going from Um and of course, they're going from ChatGPT three or four to now at 5.2 and ChatGPT three or four to now at 5.2 and ChatGPT three or four to now at 5.2 and it went from barely being able to finish it went from barely being able to finish it went from barely being able to finish a sentence with ChatGPT to like finish a a sentence with ChatGPT to like finish a a sentence with ChatGPT to like finish a paragraph and do like a coherent text to paragraph and do like a coherent text to paragraph and do like a coherent text to GPT-3 could write full essays to GPT-4 GPT-3 could write full essays to GPT-4 GPT-3 could write full essays to GPT-4 can pass the, you know, the bar exam or can pass the, you know, the bar exam or can pass the, you know, the bar exam or the MCATs to GPT-5.2, I believe was used the MCATs to GPT-5.2, I believe was used the MCATs to GPT-5.2, I believe was used to get a gold in the math Olympiad. to get a gold in the math Olympiad. to get a gold in the math Olympiad. Meta's Hyperion AI data center will Meta's Hyperion AI data center will Meta's Hyperion AI data center will sprawl to four times the size of sprawl to four times the size of sprawl to four times the size of Manhattan's Central Park. Manhattan's Central Park. Manhattan's Central Park. And there are quotes from people like And there are quotes from people like And there are quotes from people like inside of OpenAI who believe that inside of OpenAI who believe that inside of OpenAI who believe that they're not just building this like they're not just building this like they're not just building this like narrow technology that's a helpful narrow technology that's a helpful narrow technology that's a helpful blinking cursor. They want to build blinking cursor. They want to build blinking cursor. They want to build artificial general intelligence. And so artificial general intelligence. And so artificial general intelligence. And so what that means is being able to do that what that means is being able to do that what that means is being able to do that everything that a human mind can do. And everything that a human mind can do. And everything that a human mind can do. And the joke inside the company is like the joke inside the company is like the joke inside the company is like we're going to cover the world in data we're going to cover the world in data we're going to cover the world in data centers and solar panels. centers and solar panels. centers and solar panels. Like they want to cover the world in Like they want to cover the world in Like they want to cover the world in essentially these big boxes that have essentially these big boxes that have essentially these big boxes that have huge clusters of Nvidia chips that then huge clusters of Nvidia chips that then huge clusters of Nvidia chips that then compute away and ultimately create compute away and ultimately create compute away and ultimately create something like a super intelligent god something like a super intelligent god something like a super intelligent god entity that they believe that they will entity that they believe that they will entity that they believe that they will use to own the world economy, make use to own the world economy, make use to own the world economy, make trillions of dollars, and from a kind of trillions of dollars, and from a kind of trillions of dollars, and from a kind of ego religious intuition, they will have ego religious intuition, they will have ego religious intuition, they will have built the god that supersedes and built the god that supersedes and built the god that supersedes and replaces humanity. I know that sounds replaces humanity. I know that sounds replaces humanity. I know that sounds insane. So let's slow that down again. insane. So let's slow that down again. insane. So let's slow that down again. Break that down for me. That's That was Break that down for me. That's That was Break that down for me. That's That was a lot. That was a lot. a lot. That was a lot. a lot. That was a lot. Um Um Um yeah, you've got a new movie out and I yeah, you've got a new movie out and I yeah, you've got a new movie out and I feel like I I found out who the bad guy feel like I I found out who the bad guy feel like I I found out who the bad guy is, but I have no idea how he got there. is, but I have no idea how he got there. is, but I have no idea how he got there. Who's the bad guy? The Who's the bad guy? The Who's the bad guy? The end of the world AGI overlords. Well, end of the world AGI overlords. Well, end of the world AGI overlords. Well, yes. Okay. So first of all, let's like yes. Okay. So first of all, let's like yes. Okay. So first of all, let's like break this down cuz this might sound um break this down cuz this might sound um break this down cuz this might sound um ridiculous to people. Let's make sure ridiculous to people. Let's make sure ridiculous to people. Let's make sure people understand. Um people understand. Um people understand. Um the stated mission statement of OpenAI the stated mission statement of OpenAI the stated mission statement of OpenAI is to build artificial general is to build artificial general is to build artificial general intelligence, which means to be able to intelligence, which means to be able to intelligence, which means to be able to replace all forms of economic cognitive replace all forms of economic cognitive replace all forms of economic cognitive labor in the economy. Cognitive labor labor in the economy. Cognitive labor labor in the economy. Cognitive labor meaning meaning meaning cognitive Anything your mind can do. So cognitive Anything your mind can do. So cognitive Anything your mind can do. So if a if a mind can do math and generate if a if a mind can do math and generate if a if a mind can do math and generate new mathematical insights, if a mind can new mathematical insights, if a mind can new mathematical insights, if a mind can do physics like Einstein, if a mind can do physics like Einstein, if a mind can do physics like Einstein, if a mind can do chemistry, if a mind can do do chemistry, if a mind can do do chemistry, if a mind can do programming, if a mind can do cyber programming, if a mind can do cyber programming, if a mind can do cyber hacking, if a mind can do marketing, if hacking, if a mind can do marketing, if hacking, if a mind can do marketing, if a mind can illustrate something, a mind can illustrate something, a mind can illustrate something, we're seeing AI that is able to um kind we're seeing AI that is able to um kind we're seeing AI that is able to um kind of cover more and more types of of cover more and more types of of cover more and more types of cognitive labor in the economy cognitive labor in the economy cognitive labor in the economy as we scale AI from this tiny little as we scale AI from this tiny little as we scale AI from this tiny little model with, you know, 100 million model with, you know, 100 million model with, you know, 100 million parameters to trillions of parameters parameters to trillions of parameters parameters to trillions of parameters and these huge these much bigger data and these huge these much bigger data and these huge these much bigger data centers. Um AI is getting closer and centers. Um AI is getting closer and centers. Um AI is getting closer and closer to be able to and already beating closer to be able to and already beating closer to be able to and already beating humans at many cognitive tasks. We humans at many cognitive tasks. We humans at many cognitive tasks. We already have AIs that are better at already have AIs that are better at already have AIs that are better at military strategy than the best military military strategy than the best military military strategy than the best military generals. Um people remember, you know, generals. Um people remember, you know, generals. Um people remember, you know, in 19 1990s in 19 1990s in 19 1990s uh IBM Deep Blue beat Garry Kasparov at uh IBM Deep Blue beat Garry Kasparov at uh IBM Deep Blue beat Garry Kasparov at chess. That was kind of like the chess. That was kind of like the chess. That was kind of like the beginning of like it can beat you in beginning of like it can beat you in beginning of like it can beat you in this narrow game called chess. Then this narrow game called chess. Then this narrow game called chess. Then there was AlphaGo. We can have AI that there was AlphaGo. We can have AI that there was AlphaGo. We can have AI that beats the best human Go player in the beats the best human Go player in the beats the best human Go player in the Asian board game of Go. Asian board game of Go. Asian board game of Go. Um Um Um but then now instead of imagine chess or but then now instead of imagine chess or but then now instead of imagine chess or Go or StarCraft, now it's like the war Go or StarCraft, now it's like the war Go or StarCraft, now it's like the war in Iran. in Iran. in Iran. And you have an AI that's basically And you have an AI that's basically And you have an AI that's basically telling the military troops where to go, telling the military troops where to go, telling the military troops where to go, who to bomb. This is really scary. And who to bomb. This is really scary. And who to bomb. This is really scary. And we're racing to this outcome faster than we're racing to this outcome faster than we're racing to this outcome faster than we've again built any other technology we've again built any other technology we've again built any other technology in history. in history. in history. >> You said that it's better >> You said that it's better >> You said that it's better better than humans. Better in the better than humans. Better in the better than humans. Better in the narrowly defined sense of effective at narrowly defined sense of effective at narrowly defined sense of effective at strategy, effective at goal achieving, strategy, effective at goal achieving, strategy, effective at goal achieving, effective at problem solving. Cuz that's effective at problem solving. Cuz that's effective at problem solving. Cuz that's what is intelligence, right? It's like what is intelligence, right? It's like what is intelligence, right? It's like finding the shortest path between finding the shortest path between finding the shortest path between a goal and what are the strategies that a goal and what are the strategies that a goal and what are the strategies that get you to that goal? get you to that goal? get you to that goal? So persuasion is a kind of So persuasion is a kind of So persuasion is a kind of uh strategy or or or intellectual task. uh strategy or or or intellectual task. uh strategy or or or intellectual task. What is the best way to persuade you? What is the best way to persuade you? What is the best way to persuade you? The shortest path. Um negotiation is a The shortest path. Um negotiation is a The shortest path. Um negotiation is a problem solving task. And lawyers find problem solving task. And lawyers find problem solving task. And lawyers find ways of lying or framing the truth in ways of lying or framing the truth in ways of lying or framing the truth in certain ways. Well, AI is going to certain ways. Well, AI is going to certain ways. Well, AI is going to discover forms of deception or lying. discover forms of deception or lying. discover forms of deception or lying. We're seeing that in the examples that I We're seeing that in the examples that I We're seeing that in the examples that I think we're going to talk about. think we're going to talk about. think we're going to talk about. Um Um Um and so but intelligence is different and so but intelligence is different and so but intelligence is different than wisdom. than wisdom. than wisdom. And your podcast is called Modern And your podcast is called Modern And your podcast is called Modern Wisdom. And I hope we get into this Wisdom. And I hope we get into this Wisdom. And I hope we get into this distinction because distinction because distinction because um we are scaling up the amount of power um we are scaling up the amount of power um we are scaling up the amount of power that everyone is going to have access that everyone is going to have access that everyone is going to have access to, whether it's individuals or to, whether it's individuals or to, whether it's individuals or militaries or nation states or companies militaries or nation states or companies militaries or nation states or companies or businesses. or businesses. or businesses. Um but we are not commensurately scaling Um but we are not commensurately scaling Um but we are not commensurately scaling the amount of wisdom. And I know a the amount of wisdom. And I know a the amount of wisdom. And I know a friend of ours that we we met in Austin friend of ours that we we met in Austin friend of ours that we we met in Austin several years ago, uh a dear friend of several years ago, uh a dear friend of several years ago, uh a dear friend of mine, Daniel Schmachtenberger, has this mine, Daniel Schmachtenberger, has this mine, Daniel Schmachtenberger, has this quote that you cannot have the power of quote that you cannot have the power of quote that you cannot have the power of gods without the wisdom, love, and gods without the wisdom, love, and gods without the wisdom, love, and prudence of gods. prudence of gods. prudence of gods. And so in many ways, I think AI is like And so in many ways, I think AI is like And so in many ways, I think AI is like a rite of passage for humanity because a rite of passage for humanity because a rite of passage for humanity because essentially we've always been poor We've essentially we've always been poor We've essentially we've always been poor We've not always had the great greatest track not always had the great greatest track not always had the great greatest track record in our relationships to record in our relationships to record in our relationships to technology. Like if you look at the technology. Like if you look at the technology. Like if you look at the Industrial Revolution tech, Industrial Revolution tech, Industrial Revolution tech, what what letter grade would we give what what letter grade would we give what what letter grade would we give ourselves in holding on in like ourselves in holding on in like ourselves in holding on in like stewarding that tech? stewarding that tech? stewarding that tech? You know, we had better living through You know, we had better living through You know, we had better living through chemistry in the 1930s, DuPont chemistry in the 1930s, DuPont chemistry in the 1930s, DuPont chemistry. chemistry. chemistry. Uh and that was great. We invented all Uh and that was great. We invented all Uh and that was great. We invented all sorts of new materials, but we also sorts of new materials, but we also sorts of new materials, but we also generated forever chemicals. And it generated forever chemicals. And it generated forever chemicals. And it would it would currently cost more than would it would currently cost more than would it would currently cost more than the GDP of the entire world to clean up the GDP of the entire world to clean up the GDP of the entire world to clean up the entire mess of forever chemicals. the entire mess of forever chemicals. the entire mess of forever chemicals. Um you know, we created social media Um you know, we created social media Um you know, we created social media thinking if we give the world access to thinking if we give the world access to thinking if we give the world access to information in our fingertips and just information in our fingertips and just information in our fingertips and just connect people with their friends, this connect people with their friends, this connect people with their friends, this is going to create the most enlightened is going to create the most enlightened is going to create the most enlightened and informed society than we ever have. and informed society than we ever have. and informed society than we ever have. And clearly that didn't go that in the And clearly that didn't go that in the And clearly that didn't go that in the way that we we wanted it to. way that we we wanted it to. way that we we wanted it to. So now AI is like the exponentiation So now AI is like the exponentiation So now AI is like the exponentiation of just technology invention writ large. of just technology invention writ large. of just technology invention writ large. Because what makes AI different from all Because what makes AI different from all Because what makes AI different from all other forms of technology other forms of technology other forms of technology is that intelligence is the basis of all is that intelligence is the basis of all is that intelligence is the basis of all of our new science, of all of our new of our new science, of all of our new of our new science, of all of our new technology, of our all of our new technology, of our all of our new technology, of our all of our new military development. So if you automate military development. So if you automate military development. So if you automate intelligence, you're going to automate intelligence, you're going to automate intelligence, you're going to automate an explosion of new science, new an explosion of new science, new an explosion of new science, new technology, new military technology. technology, new military technology. technology, new military technology. And And And if you have more power and more if you have more power and more if you have more power and more intelligence, but you don't have the intelligence, but you don't have the intelligence, but you don't have the wisdom to wield it, wisdom to wield it, wisdom to wield it, that's obviously not going to go well. that's obviously not going to go well. that's obviously not going to go well. Why can't wisdom be programmed, too? Why can't wisdom be programmed, too? Why can't wisdom be programmed, too? Uh well, in some ways you could say that Uh well, in some ways you could say that Uh well, in some ways you could say that it can be. it can be. it can be. Uh it's just that it's it's not that Uh it's just that it's it's not that Uh it's just that it's it's not that like wisdom comes from like wisdom comes from like wisdom comes from the ether. You have to it's about asking the ether. You have to it's about asking the ether. You have to it's about asking critical questions about how should the critical questions about how should the critical questions about how should the technology be designed? So for example, technology be designed? So for example, technology be designed? So for example, like like like do we have to have our entire internet do we have to have our entire internet do we have to have our entire internet environment have autoplaying videos that environment have autoplaying videos that environment have autoplaying videos that swipe one after another? swipe one after another? swipe one after another? No, we don't have to have that. We can No, we don't have to have that. We can No, we don't have to have that. We can have a totally different design paradigm have a totally different design paradigm have a totally different design paradigm where no one's autoplaying videos. where no one's autoplaying videos. where no one's autoplaying videos. Um wisdom would be understanding that Um wisdom would be understanding that Um wisdom would be understanding that the human psychological the human psychological the human psychological the the Paleolithic brain that we are the the Paleolithic brain that we are the the Paleolithic brain that we are born with has these vulnerabilities in born with has these vulnerabilities in born with has these vulnerabilities in our dopamine system. And we could design our dopamine system. And we could design our dopamine system. And we could design to not hijack that dopamine system. And to not hijack that dopamine system. And to not hijack that dopamine system. And just imagine for a second, just to like just imagine for a second, just to like just imagine for a second, just to like there's a huge conversation we're there's a huge conversation we're there's a huge conversation we're having, but if you just imagine that one having, but if you just imagine that one having, but if you just imagine that one little change. So here's today. Everyone little change. So here's today. Everyone little change. So here's today. Everyone has autoplaying videos infinitely has autoplaying videos infinitely has autoplaying videos infinitely swiping, brain rotting everybody, brain swiping, brain rotting everybody, brain swiping, brain rotting everybody, brain damaging everybody 24/7. Test scores are damaging everybody 24/7. Test scores are damaging everybody 24/7. Test scores are massively down for basically all around massively down for basically all around massively down for basically all around the world um because of this phenomenon. the world um because of this phenomenon. the world um because of this phenomenon. It's very, very clear that the It's very, very clear that the It's very, very clear that the technology in social media is driving technology in social media is driving technology in social media is driving that. that. that. If you make this one little change of no If you make this one little change of no If you make this one little change of no autoplaying videos, autoplaying videos, autoplaying videos, it means also no um it means also no um it means also no um you know, no infinite swipe dating apps you know, no infinite swipe dating apps you know, no infinite swipe dating apps that are getting you into a slot machine that are getting you into a slot machine that are getting you into a slot machine with player cards of people. Like how with player cards of people. Like how with player cards of people. Like how different does the world become? Like on different does the world become? Like on different does the world become? Like on a When you meet people, how disregulated a When you meet people, how disregulated a When you meet people, how disregulated is their nervous system? is their nervous system? is their nervous system? Just that one little change. I want Just that one little change. I want Just that one little change. I want people to think as we're in this people to think as we're in this people to think as we're in this conversation, conversation, conversation, there's just these different worlds we there's just these different worlds we there's just these different worlds we can live in with just different design can live in with just different design can live in with just different design choices. And that's kind of the whole choices. And that's kind of the whole choices. And that's kind of the whole point is that wisdom can be what are the point is that wisdom can be what are the point is that wisdom can be what are the design choices that will lead to better design choices that will lead to better design choices that will lead to better societal outcomes. And of course, the societal outcomes. And of course, the societal outcomes. And of course, the reason that everyone's autoplaying the reason that everyone's autoplaying the reason that everyone's autoplaying the videos is because of this competitive videos is because of this competitive videos is because of this competitive arms race that if I don't do it, I'll arms race that if I don't do it, I'll arms race that if I don't do it, I'll lose to the other company that will. And lose to the other company that will. And lose to the other company that will. And so it would take some kind of rule or so it would take some kind of rule or so it would take some kind of rule or policy that says that we don't want policy that says that we don't want policy that says that we don't want that. You need to put a moratorium on that. You need to put a moratorium on that. You need to put a moratorium on autoplay videos. autoplay videos. autoplay videos. Because the incentives for any Because the incentives for any Because the incentives for any individual company and for the market at individual company and for the market at individual company and for the market at large and for the competitive dynamic large and for the competitive dynamic large and for the competitive dynamic between companies means that if you between companies means that if you between companies means that if you don't do it, you get beaten by the one don't do it, you get beaten by the one don't do it, you get beaten by the one that does. And that's that's the that does. And that's that's the that does. And that's that's the that's like the bullseye. That's like that's like the bullseye. That's like that's like the bullseye. That's like the the the the fundamental problem behind AI that's the fundamental problem behind AI that's the fundamental problem behind AI that's forcing us to reckon with is forcing us to reckon with is forcing us to reckon with is unhealthy competition or this sort of if unhealthy competition or this sort of if unhealthy competition or this sort of if I don't do it, I'll lose to the guy that I don't do it, I'll lose to the guy that I don't do it, I'll lose to the guy that will. So everyone does a thing that's will. So everyone does a thing that's will. So everyone does a thing that's short-term good for them, but that's short-term good for them, but that's short-term good for them, but that's long-term bad for everybody. long-term bad for everybody. long-term bad for everybody. Um you know, the AI companies, well, Um you know, the AI companies, well, Um you know, the AI companies, well, even Anthropic wants to be the safety AI even Anthropic wants to be the safety AI even Anthropic wants to be the safety AI company. They want to do things in a company. They want to do things in a company. They want to do things in a safer, more careful way, but they, if safer, more careful way, but they, if safer, more careful way, but they, if they don't release models as powerful they don't release models as powerful they don't release models as powerful and as fast as the other companies, and as fast as the other companies, and as fast as the other companies, they'll just fall behind in the race. they'll just fall behind in the race. they'll just fall behind in the race. They won't have a seat at the They won't have a seat at the They won't have a seat at the policy-making table. They won't get a policy-making table. They won't get a policy-making table. They won't get a lot of usage. They won't get the lot of usage. They won't get the lot of usage. They won't get the investor dollars. And then their their investor dollars. And then their their investor dollars. And then their their commitment to safety just means they commitment to safety just means they commitment to safety just means they lose and they're not part of the race lose and they're not part of the race lose and they're not part of the race anymore. Yeah, what's that line? How can anymore. Yeah, what's that line? How can anymore. Yeah, what's that line? How can you talk [ __ ] from outside of the club? you talk [ __ ] from outside of the club? you talk [ __ ] from outside of the club? You can't even get in. Yeah. Uh it's You can't even get in. Yeah. Uh it's You can't even get in. Yeah. Uh it's difficult to difficult to difficult to >> Something like that. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I >> Something like that. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I >> Something like that. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I think Is it Was that Jay Quan, I think? think Is it Was that Jay Quan, I think? think Is it Was that Jay Quan, I think? There was There was There was dating me in like the mid-2000s. dating me in like the mid-2000s. dating me in like the mid-2000s. There's a a study that I saw recently. There's a a study that I saw recently. There's a a study that I saw recently. Scientists just proved that large Scientists just proved that large Scientists just proved that large language models can literally rot their language models can literally rot their language models can literally rot their own brains the same way humans get brain own brains the same way humans get brain own brains the same way humans get brain rot from scrolling junk content online. rot from scrolling junk content online. rot from scrolling junk content online. Did you see this? Did you see this? Did you see this? >> I did see that, yeah. Yeah, scientists >> I did see that, yeah. Yeah, scientists >> I did see that, yeah. Yeah, scientists did a study where they fed models months did a study where they fed models months did a study where they fed models months worth of viral Twitter data, shorts, worth of viral Twitter data, shorts, worth of viral Twitter data, shorts, high engagement posts, and watched their high engagement posts, and watched their high engagement posts, and watched their cognition collapse. Reasoning fell by cognition collapse. Reasoning fell by cognition collapse. Reasoning fell by 23%, long-term context memory dropped by 23%, long-term context memory dropped by 23%, long-term context memory dropped by 30%, personality tests showed spikes in 30%, personality tests showed spikes in 30%, personality tests showed spikes in narcissism and psychopathy. narcissism and psychopathy. narcissism and psychopathy. And get this, even after retraining on And get this, even after retraining on And get this, even after retraining on clean, high-quality data, the damage clean, high-quality data, the damage clean, high-quality data, the damage didn't fully heal. The representational didn't fully heal. The representational didn't fully heal. The representational rot persisted. It's not just that bad rot persisted. It's not just that bad rot persisted. It's not just that bad data means bad output. It's bad data data means bad output. It's bad data data means bad output. It's bad data means permanent cognitive drift, the AI means permanent cognitive drift, the AI means permanent cognitive drift, the AI equivalent of doom scrolling is real and equivalent of doom scrolling is real and equivalent of doom scrolling is real and it's already happening. I love that you it's already happening. I love that you it's already happening. I love that you included this example. That's from right included this example. That's from right included this example. That's from right here at the University of Texas in here at the University of Texas in here at the University of Texas in Austin, um Texas A&M University. Leave Austin, um Texas A&M University. Leave Austin, um Texas A&M University. Leave it there, John. it there, John. it there, John. Yeah, so I mean Yeah, so I mean Yeah, so I mean are we surprised by this? I mean, are are we surprised by this? I mean, are are we surprised by this? I mean, are you surprised by this when you see this? you surprised by this when you see this? you surprised by this when you see this? No. Uh I can tell the difference. This No. Uh I can tell the difference. This No. Uh I can tell the difference. This year, one of my big um year, one of my big um year, one of my big um uh resolutions has been to spend less uh resolutions has been to spend less uh resolutions has been to spend less time on social media. I've managed to do time on social media. I've managed to do time on social media. I've managed to do it. Uh and it. Uh and it. Uh and um um um How'd you do it? How'd you do it? How'd you do it? Second phone. Mhm. Um that's tethered to Second phone. Mhm. Um that's tethered to Second phone. Mhm. Um that's tethered to Wi-Fi and that is the cocaine phone and Wi-Fi and that is the cocaine phone and Wi-Fi and that is the cocaine phone and the kale phone is just messages and and the kale phone is just messages and and the kale phone is just messages and and stuff. It's a little bit of a challenge stuff. It's a little bit of a challenge stuff. It's a little bit of a challenge because things like Slack. I had uh Cal because things like Slack. I had uh Cal because things like Slack. I had uh Cal Newport on a couple of a couple of weeks Newport on a couple of a couple of weeks Newport on a couple of a couple of weeks ago and he was I was talking about the ago and he was I was talking about the ago and he was I was talking about the intersection of productivity and intersection of productivity and intersection of productivity and detention detention detention >> Yeah. with AI, the new world of AI and >> Yeah. with AI, the new world of AI and >> Yeah. with AI, the new world of AI and that's a really interesting that's a really interesting that's a really interesting conversation. Have you ever spoken to conversation. Have you ever spoken to conversation. Have you ever spoken to Cal? Cal? Cal? >> Yeah. Yeah, yeah. He he and I have been >> Yeah. Yeah, yeah. He he and I have been >> Yeah. Yeah, yeah. He he and I have been in similar circles for a long time. in similar circles for a long time. in similar circles for a long time. >> He's wonderful. Um and uh a >> He's wonderful. Um and uh a >> He's wonderful. Um and uh a even if you have your phone without even if you have your phone without even if you have your phone without social media, you still have kind of the social media, you still have kind of the social media, you still have kind of the social media of work. Yeah. social media of work. Yeah. social media of work. Yeah. >> Right. >> Right. >> Right. >> Exactly. But anyway, I've kept I I've >> Exactly. But anyway, I've kept I I've >> Exactly. But anyway, I've kept I I've I've done good stuff on that and I've I've done good stuff on that and I've I've done good stuff on that and I've come up with some of my best ideas so come up with some of my best ideas so come up with some of my best ideas so far this year. My writing's improved, uh far this year. My writing's improved, uh far this year. My writing's improved, uh my sleep's improved, my attention's my sleep's improved, my attention's my sleep's improved, my attention's improved. This is already someone that improved. This is already someone that improved. This is already someone that was pretty red-pilled on was pretty red-pilled on was pretty red-pilled on tech minimalism. You know, I think tech minimalism. You know, I think tech minimalism. You know, I think >> Right. >> Right. >> Right. the seventh or the eighth episode of the seventh or the eighth episode of the seventh or the eighth episode of this show was inspired by you and it was this show was inspired by you and it was this show was inspired by you and it was Kaiwei, the guy that invented the Light Kaiwei, the guy that invented the Light Kaiwei, the guy that invented the Light Phone. Oh, yeah. Uh-huh. Uh and this is Phone. Oh, yeah. Uh-huh. Uh and this is Phone. Oh, yeah. Uh-huh. Uh and this is 2018. Yeah, totally. So, I've been 2018. Yeah, totally. So, I've been 2018. Yeah, totally. So, I've been concerned I read Superintelligence 2017. concerned I read Superintelligence 2017. concerned I read Superintelligence 2017. >> Oh, wow. Yeah. >> Oh, wow. Yeah. >> Oh, wow. Yeah. >> Um that's early. >> Um that's early. >> Um that's early. I I I listened to Superintelligence in 2017. listened to Superintelligence in 2017. listened to Superintelligence in 2017. Reading it would have been a little bit Reading it would have been a little bit Reading it would have been a little bit more difficult for me. Uh but yeah, I I more difficult for me. Uh but yeah, I I more difficult for me. Uh but yeah, I I don't feel as good when I use too much don't feel as good when I use too much don't feel as good when I use too much social media, I don't feel as good. social media, I don't feel as good. social media, I don't feel as good. >> And that's the thing. I mean, like is >> And that's the thing. I mean, like is >> And that's the thing. I mean, like is that a controversial fact? Do you think that a controversial fact? Do you think that a controversial fact? Do you think that anybody when they're sitting there that anybody when they're sitting there that anybody when they're sitting there doom scrolling for 3 hours just like doom scrolling for 3 hours just like doom scrolling for 3 hours just like put a thermometer, you know, pain you put a thermometer, you know, pain you put a thermometer, you know, pain you know, positive emotion meter in their know, positive emotion meter in their know, positive emotion meter in their brain. brain. brain. >> Mhm. >> Mhm. >> Mhm. Are people going to say that they love Are people going to say that they love Are people going to say that they love that? I mean, it's one of those things that? I mean, it's one of those things that? I mean, it's one of those things where short-term good, it feels good in where short-term good, it feels good in where short-term good, it feels good in the moment, but it's long-term empty. the moment, but it's long-term empty. the moment, but it's long-term empty. Like it's just this high fructose corn Like it's just this high fructose corn Like it's just this high fructose corn syrup for our brain. syrup for our brain. syrup for our brain. Empty calories. Empty calories. Empty calories. >> Mhm. And the fact that this is >> Mhm. And the fact that this is >> Mhm. And the fact that this is replicated by social media can even warp an AI. social media can even warp an AI. Can even warp an LLM. Can even warp an LLM. Can even warp an LLM. I think feels quite pernicious. Yeah. Uh I think feels quite pernicious. Yeah. Uh I think feels quite pernicious. Yeah. Uh I mean, it's it's interesting to note I mean, it's it's interesting to note I mean, it's it's interesting to note that um that um that um when Elon bought Twitter, when Elon bought Twitter, when Elon bought Twitter, you know, he was already thinking about you know, he was already thinking about you know, he was already thinking about AI. And part of what he was thinking AI. And part of what he was thinking AI. And part of what he was thinking about is, you know, in in the AI race, about is, you know, in in the AI race, about is, you know, in in the AI race, these companies that are racing to get these companies that are racing to get these companies that are racing to get to artificial general intelligence, one to artificial general intelligence, one to artificial general intelligence, one of the ways they differentiate of the ways they differentiate of the ways they differentiate themselves from each other is their themselves from each other is their themselves from each other is their training data. Like who has more training data. Like who has more training data. Like who has more powerful and more training data for powerful and more training data for powerful and more training data for their for training and growing their their for training and growing their their for training and growing their digital brain than the other guy. And digital brain than the other guy. And digital brain than the other guy. And Elon thought that he had a competitive Elon thought that he had a competitive Elon thought that he had a competitive advantage because he would have the advantage because he would have the advantage because he would have the entire user-generated content of the entire user-generated content of the entire user-generated content of the real-time views of all of humanity in real-time views of all of humanity in real-time views of all of humanity in the form of Twitter and he could train the form of Twitter and he could train the form of Twitter and he could train his AI on that. And that's what led to his AI on that. And that's what led to his AI on that. And that's what led to Grok. But of course, when you train Grok. But of course, when you train Grok. But of course, when you train essentially an AI on kind of essentially an AI on kind of essentially an AI on kind of brain-rotted, hyper-polarized, brain-rotted, hyper-polarized, brain-rotted, hyper-polarized, hyper-adversarial, rivalrous, you know, hyper-adversarial, rivalrous, you know, hyper-adversarial, rivalrous, you know, all the problems of Twitter, the outrage all the problems of Twitter, the outrage all the problems of Twitter, the outrage economy, you get AIs that are more like economy, you get AIs that are more like economy, you get AIs that are more like this than than the better AIs. Before we this than than the better AIs. Before we this than than the better AIs. Before we continue, most people in their 30s are continue, most people in their 30s are continue, most people in their 30s are still training hard. Their protein is still training hard. Their protein is still training hard. Their protein is dialed in. They sleep better than they dialed in. They sleep better than they dialed in. They sleep better than they did in their 20s. Discipline is not the did in their 20s. Discipline is not the did in their 20s. Discipline is not the issue, but recovery feels issue, but recovery feels issue, but recovery feels somewhat different. Strength gains take somewhat different. Strength gains take somewhat different. Strength gains take a little longer. The margin for error a little longer. The margin for error a little longer. The margin for error starts to shrink and that is why I'm starts to shrink and that is why I'm starts to shrink and that is why I'm such a huge fan of Timeline. You see, such a huge fan of Timeline. You see, such a huge fan of Timeline. You see, mitochondria are the energy producers mitochondria are the energy producers mitochondria are the energy producers inside of your muscle cells. As they inside of your muscle cells. As they inside of your muscle cells. As they weaken with age, your ability to weaken with age, your ability to weaken with age, your ability to generate power and recover effectively generate power and recover effectively generate power and recover effectively changes even if your habits stay strong. changes even if your habits stay strong. changes even if your habits stay strong. Mitopure from Timeline contains the only Mitopure from Timeline contains the only Mitopure from Timeline contains the only clinically validated form of urolithin A clinically validated form of urolithin A clinically validated form of urolithin A used in human trials. It promotes used in human trials. It promotes used in human trials. It promotes mitophagy, which is your body's natural mitophagy, which is your body's natural mitophagy, which is your body's natural process for clearing out damaged process for clearing out damaged process for clearing out damaged mitochondria and renewing healthy ones. mitochondria and renewing healthy ones. mitochondria and renewing healthy ones. In studies, this supported mitochondrial In studies, this supported mitochondrial In studies, this supported mitochondrial function and muscle strength in older function and muscle strength in older function and muscle strength in older adults. It's not about pushing harder, adults. It's not about pushing harder, adults. It's not about pushing harder, but actually supporting the cellular but actually supporting the cellular but actually supporting the cellular machinery underneath your training. If machinery underneath your training. If machinery underneath your training. 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And right now, you can get up to 20% off by going to the link get up to 20% off by going to the link get up to 20% off by going to the link in the description below or heading to in the description below or heading to in the description below or heading to timelife.com/modernwisdom timelife.com/modernwisdom timelife.com/modernwisdom and using the code modernwisdom at and using the code modernwisdom at and using the code modernwisdom at checkout. That's checkout. That's checkout. That's timelife.com/modernwisdom. And modernwisdom at checkout. And modernwisdom at checkout. Okay, so Okay, so Okay, so the discussion around social media was the discussion around social media was the discussion around social media was there are better and worse design there are better and worse design there are better and worse design choices that can be made that would help choices that can be made that would help choices that can be made that would help human flourishing. Broadly, what would human flourishing. Broadly, what would human flourishing. Broadly, what would people want their world to be like and people want their world to be like and people want their world to be like and how can we design technology in a way how can we design technology in a way how can we design technology in a way that helps them to get there? that helps them to get there? that helps them to get there? >> Yeah. Something close to that. But >> Yeah. Something close to that. But >> Yeah. Something close to that. But because of market dynamics, you have a because of market dynamics, you have a because of market dynamics, you have a competitive landscape that incentivizes competitive landscape that incentivizes competitive landscape that incentivizes things that are effective for gripping things that are effective for gripping things that are effective for gripping people's attention, Yeah. but not people's attention, Yeah. but not people's attention, Yeah. but not necessarily effective for flourishing. necessarily effective for flourishing. necessarily effective for flourishing. And it seems that a And it seems that a And it seems that a uh uh uh tension tension tension between between between what is good for flourishing cuz it what is good for flourishing cuz it what is good for flourishing cuz it could be could be could be >> Mhm. what's good for attention would >> Mhm. what's good for attention would >> Mhm. what's good for attention would also be good for flourishing. It could also be good for flourishing. It could also be good for flourishing. It could be. be. be. >> It could be, but it tends to not be that >> It could be, but it tends to not be that >> It could be, but it tends to not be that way. way. way. >> And also, there's going to be a limit on >> And also, there's going to be a limit on >> And also, there's going to be a limit on that, right? Like it's probably not the that, right? Like it's probably not the that, right? Like it's probably not the case that 10 hours of attention on any case that 10 hours of attention on any case that 10 hours of attention on any social media is good for society or good social media is good for society or good social media is good for society or good for you. So, there's going to be sort of for you. So, there's going to be sort of for you. So, there's going to be sort of >> was like waking up with Sam, the the the >> was like waking up with Sam, the the the >> was like waking up with Sam, the the the the meditation app. Maybe 10 hours once the meditation app. Maybe 10 hours once the meditation app. Maybe 10 hours once every month or something would probably every month or something would probably every month or something would probably be quite good to do for a meditation be quite good to do for a meditation be quite good to do for a meditation app. app. app. >> Maybe, sure. Yeah, but I think the point >> Maybe, sure. Yeah, but I think the point >> Maybe, sure. Yeah, but I think the point is like how much as companies are is like how much as companies are is like how much as companies are competing, you're asking what they're competing, you're asking what they're competing, you're asking what they're competing for. It's not just like the competing for. It's not just like the competing for. It's not just like the the best screen time. It's also like the best screen time. It's also like the best screen time. It's also like what is the fit, the ergonomic fit what is the fit, the ergonomic fit what is the fit, the ergonomic fit between screen time and a life well between screen time and a life well between screen time and a life well lived. Just imagine like in a timeline lived. Just imagine like in a timeline lived. Just imagine like in a timeline if there you are in a week in your life. if there you are in a week in your life. if there you are in a week in your life. Like Like Like not asking based on what you're doing not asking based on what you're doing not asking based on what you're doing now, but retrospectively, what would be now, but retrospectively, what would be now, but retrospectively, what would be a life well lived when it comes to how a life well lived when it comes to how a life well lived when it comes to how much and when screen time is fitting much and when screen time is fitting much and when screen time is fitting into your life and it's probably like a into your life and it's probably like a into your life and it's probably like a much smaller footprint than it currently much smaller footprint than it currently much smaller footprint than it currently is for most people. It's probably like a is for most people. It's probably like a is for most people. It's probably like a fourth of what it currently is for most fourth of what it currently is for most fourth of what it currently is for most people. Um and so if you were designing people. Um and so if you were designing people. Um and so if you were designing technology from care, from love, from, technology from care, from love, from, technology from care, from love, from, you know, in a humane way, you know, in a humane way, you know, in a humane way, you would have design choices that are you would have design choices that are you would have design choices that are not about keeping people on the screen. not about keeping people on the screen. not about keeping people on the screen. Um and that might mean some pretty Um and that might mean some pretty Um and that might mean some pretty radical things. I mean, my co-founder is radical things. I mean, my co-founder is radical things. I mean, my co-founder is Aza Raskin. He also invented the Aza Raskin. He also invented the Aza Raskin. He also invented the infinite scroll. Um so that's the, you infinite scroll. Um so that's the, you infinite scroll. Um so that's the, you know, know, know, it sounds so obvious now cuz infinite it sounds so obvious now cuz infinite it sounds so obvious now cuz infinite scroll is just what we live in, but when scroll is just what we live in, but when scroll is just what we live in, but when he invented it, it was 2006. It was he invented it, it was 2006. It was he invented it, it was 2006. It was before mobile phones. And it was when in before mobile phones. And it was when in before mobile phones. And it was when in the age of Google results, you had like the age of Google results, you had like the age of Google results, you had like the 10 Google results and you had to the 10 Google results and you had to the 10 Google results and you had to click on I want the next 10 click on I want the next 10 click on I want the next 10 >> Mhm. or you had the Yelp review pages >> Mhm. or you had the Yelp review pages >> Mhm. or you had the Yelp review pages and you wanted the next 10 or you read a and you wanted the next 10 or you read a and you wanted the next 10 or you read a you read a blog post and then you'd have you read a blog post and then you'd have you read a blog post and then you'd have to like click go back to the to the main to like click go back to the to the main to like click go back to the to the main page to click on which blog post you page to click on which blog post you page to click on which blog post you want. And the idea he had was, well, want. And the idea he had was, well, want. And the idea he had was, well, what if as the internet got dynamic with what if as the internet got dynamic with what if as the internet got dynamic with JavaScript, what if when you finished JavaScript, what if when you finished JavaScript, what if when you finished when you get to the end of the blog when you get to the end of the blog when you get to the end of the blog post, it just auto loads the next post, it just auto loads the next post, it just auto loads the next article that you could go to? Well, what article that you could go to? Well, what article that you could go to? Well, what if when you got to the end of the search if when you got to the end of the search if when you got to the end of the search results, it just shows you more search results, it just shows you more search results, it just shows you more search results? And then this is just a cleaner results? And then this is just a cleaner results? And then this is just a cleaner interface. I mean, as a technology interface. I mean, as a technology interface. I mean, as a technology designer, you're taught the number one designer, you're taught the number one designer, you're taught the number one thing you're trying to do is reduce thing you're trying to do is reduce thing you're trying to do is reduce friction. And I think that that felt friction. And I think that that felt friction. And I think that that felt like a good goal, but then that like a good goal, but then that like a good goal, but then that obviously got weaponized by this obviously got weaponized by this obviously got weaponized by this hyper-engagement model of social media hyper-engagement model of social media hyper-engagement model of social media and now it's created the entire world and now it's created the entire world and now it's created the entire world that we're living in. And just so you that we're living in. And just so you that we're living in. And just so you know, like in 2013, I saw like know, like in 2013, I saw like know, like in 2013, I saw like everything that we predicted. Everything everything that we predicted. Everything everything that we predicted. Everything that we predicted, it all happened. All that we predicted, it all happened. All that we predicted, it all happened. All of it. A more addicted, distracted, of it. A more addicted, distracted, of it. A more addicted, distracted, sexualized, FOMO, sexualized, FOMO, sexualized, FOMO, [ __ ] up society because of those [ __ ] up society because of those [ __ ] up society because of those incentives. And I I just want people to incentives. And I I just want people to incentives. And I I just want people to get that because as we talk about AI, get that because as we talk about AI, get that because as we talk about AI, it's like I want people to have the it's like I want people to have the it's like I want people to have the confidence confidence confidence to say I don't want the default to say I don't want the default to say I don't want the default anti-human future. Because if you say anti-human future. Because if you say anti-human future. Because if you say I'm against some of the things that are I'm against some of the things that are I'm against some of the things that are going to happen with AI, people say, going to happen with AI, people say, going to happen with AI, people say, "Oh, you're being anti-progress. Oh, "Oh, you're being anti-progress. Oh, "Oh, you're being anti-progress. Oh, you're being anti-technology. Oh, you're you're being anti-technology. Oh, you're you're being anti-technology. Oh, you're just a Luddite. You're trying to like just a Luddite. You're trying to like just a Luddite. You're trying to like pretend that technology's not progress." pretend that technology's not progress." pretend that technology's not progress." And it's like what you should have And it's like what you should have And it's like what you should have confidence in is if you understand the confidence in is if you understand the confidence in is if you understand the incentives or the agenda, you can incentives or the agenda, you can incentives or the agenda, you can understand where the world is going and understand where the world is going and understand where the world is going and you can see. Mhm. Um and if we don't you can see. Mhm. Um and if we don't you can see. Mhm. Um and if we don't want that anti-human future and we all want that anti-human future and we all want that anti-human future and we all see it clearly, we can put our hand on see it clearly, we can put our hand on see it clearly, we can put our hand on the steering wheel and and steer. Um and the steering wheel and and steer. Um and the steering wheel and and steer. Um and that's why, not to like do some that's why, not to like do some that's why, not to like do some promotion, but um there's a film that promotion, but um there's a film that promotion, but um there's a film that I'm here in South by Southwest this week I'm here in South by Southwest this week I'm here in South by Southwest this week in Austin, Texas to uh be at the in Austin, Texas to uh be at the in Austin, Texas to uh be at the premiere. It's called the AI Doc or How premiere. It's called the AI Doc or How premiere. It's called the AI Doc or How I Became an Apocaloptimist. I Became an Apocaloptimist. I Became an Apocaloptimist. And And And >> An >> An >> An apocaloptimist. apocaloptimist. apocaloptimist. >> An apocaloptimist. >> An apocaloptimist. >> An apocaloptimist. >> Okay. Yeah. >> Okay. Yeah. >> Okay. Yeah. Um which we can get into that. Um the Um which we can get into that. Um the Um which we can get into that. Um the film is meant to create clarity about film is meant to create clarity about film is meant to create clarity about which future we're headed towards with which future we're headed towards with which future we're headed towards with AI. And it includes three out of the AI. And it includes three out of the AI. And it includes three out of the five major AI CEOs in the film. It five major AI CEOs in the film. It five major AI CEOs in the film. It includes all the AI optimists in the includes all the AI optimists in the includes all the AI optimists in the film. It includes many of the AI risk film. It includes many of the AI risk film. It includes many of the AI risk folks in the film. It includes the AI folks in the film. It includes the AI folks in the film. It includes the AI ethics folks in the room, but here's the ethics folks in the room, but here's the ethics folks in the room, but here's the problems right now and we're stop problems right now and we're stop problems right now and we're stop thinking about superintelligence. It thinking about superintelligence. It thinking about superintelligence. It includes all those folks in one movie to includes all those folks in one movie to includes all those folks in one movie to try to synthesize a picture of what is try to synthesize a picture of what is try to synthesize a picture of what is the future that we're headed towards the future that we're headed towards the future that we're headed towards with AI. And the the reason why this with AI. And the the reason why this with AI. And the the reason why this film was catalyzed into existence and, film was catalyzed into existence and, film was catalyzed into existence and, you know, we had a role in it in behind you know, we had a role in it in behind you know, we had a role in it in behind the scenes the scenes the scenes is to create clarity about this is to create clarity about this is to create clarity about this anti-human future that we're headed anti-human future that we're headed anti-human future that we're headed towards. Um What do you mean anti-human? towards. Um What do you mean anti-human? towards. Um What do you mean anti-human? So, um let's let's dive into this. So, So, um let's let's dive into this. So, So, um let's let's dive into this. So, there's something in economics called there's something in economics called there's something in economics called the resource curse. the resource curse. the resource curse. So, think countries like Venezuela or So, think countries like Venezuela or So, think countries like Venezuela or Sudan where you discover that that Sudan where you discover that that Sudan where you discover that that country is sitting on top of a really country is sitting on top of a really country is sitting on top of a really valuable resource like oil. valuable resource like oil. valuable resource like oil. And then And then And then once a bunch of your GDP comes from oil once a bunch of your GDP comes from oil once a bunch of your GDP comes from oil and not from the labor or innovation or and not from the labor or innovation or and not from the labor or innovation or development of your people, development of your people, development of your people, you invest more in oil infrastructure you invest more in oil infrastructure you invest more in oil infrastructure and not investing in people. You don't and not investing in people. You don't and not investing in people. You don't invest in education, you don't invest in invest in education, you don't invest in invest in education, you don't invest in health care because health care because health care because oil is where you get your GDP and your oil is where you get your GDP and your oil is where you get your GDP and your your your growth from. Okay. Okay. This your your growth from. Okay. Okay. This your your growth from. Okay. Okay. This is a well-known fact in in economics. is a well-known fact in in economics. is a well-known fact in in economics. It's called resource curse. It's called resource curse. It's called resource curse. There's a wonderful guy named Luke Drago There's a wonderful guy named Luke Drago There's a wonderful guy named Luke Drago who wrote a piece called the who wrote a piece called the who wrote a piece called the intelligence curse. intelligence curse. intelligence curse. We are about to enter a world where GDP We are about to enter a world where GDP We are about to enter a world where GDP for countries comes more from data for countries comes more from data for countries comes more from data centers and intelligence and AI centers and intelligence and AI centers and intelligence and AI than is going to come from the labor of than is going to come from the labor of than is going to come from the labor of human beings. human beings. human beings. So, everyone's talking about how AI is So, everyone's talking about how AI is So, everyone's talking about how AI is going to automate all these jobs and going to automate all these jobs and going to automate all these jobs and then we'll all just like sit back with then we'll all just like sit back with then we'll all just like sit back with universal basic income and become universal basic income and become universal basic income and become painters and poets. painters and poets. painters and poets. And is that actually what's going to And is that actually what's going to And is that actually what's going to happen? happen? happen? Or when countries get almost all of Or when countries get almost all of Or when countries get almost all of their revenue from AI their revenue from AI their revenue from AI and it it you know, a smaller and and it it you know, a smaller and and it it you know, a smaller and smaller percentage from people, smaller percentage from people, smaller percentage from people, do they have an incentive to invest in do they have an incentive to invest in do they have an incentive to invest in uh child care, health care, education, uh child care, health care, education, uh child care, health care, education, the well-being of their people? Or is it the well-being of their people? Or is it the well-being of their people? Or is it basically just hook them up to the basically just hook them up to the basically just hook them up to the social media addiction economy, keep social media addiction economy, keep social media addiction economy, keep them busy while basically all the them busy while basically all the them busy while basically all the revenue comes from AI companies? And so, revenue comes from AI companies? And so, revenue comes from AI companies? And so, what what I'm trying to get at is this what what I'm trying to get at is this what what I'm trying to get at is this is not a human future. This is not a is not a human future. This is not a is not a human future. This is not a future that's in service of regular future that's in service of regular future that's in service of regular people. This is a This is a future people. This is a This is a future people. This is a This is a future that's in service of eight soon-to-be that's in service of eight soon-to-be that's in service of eight soon-to-be trillionaires who will consolidate all trillionaires who will consolidate all trillionaires who will consolidate all the wealth and disempower basically the wealth and disempower basically the wealth and disempower basically everybody else. everybody else. everybody else. Because Does that make sense? It does Because Does that make sense? It does Because Does that make sense? It does because previously because previously because previously in order to go and get that in you you in order to go and get that in you you in order to go and get that in you you need you it's high-powered stuff. need you it's high-powered stuff. need you it's high-powered stuff. >> I mean I mean yeah, this is a big >> I mean I mean yeah, this is a big >> I mean I mean yeah, this is a big conversation. conversation. conversation. >> Yeah, exactly. Um they have started a >> Yeah, exactly. Um they have started a >> Yeah, exactly. Um they have started a [ __ ] trend. It's so funny when no one [ __ ] trend. It's so funny when no one [ __ ] trend. It's so funny when no one no one in the room wants to crack that no one in the room wants to crack that no one in the room wants to crack that can in case it interrupts the can in case it interrupts the can in case it interrupts the conversation. So, one goes and it's a conversation. So, one goes and it's a conversation. So, one goes and it's a Mexican wave of can opens around the Mexican wave of can opens around the Mexican wave of can opens around the It's good. Yeah. Um so, It's good. Yeah. Um so, It's good. Yeah. Um so, previously you would have had to look previously you would have had to look previously you would have had to look after the humans. after the humans. after the humans. Health care, education, and quality of Health care, education, and quality of Health care, education, and quality of life. life. life. >> Also, tax revenue comes from people. >> Also, tax revenue comes from people. >> Also, tax revenue comes from people. Right? Right? Right? >> Well, you would have to look after them >> Well, you would have to look after them >> Well, you would have to look after them because they were the primary economic because they were the primary economic because they were the primary economic engine. engine. engine. >> That's right. And so, they feed >> That's right. And so, they feed >> That's right. And so, they feed themselves. Yes. The economically they themselves. Yes. The economically they themselves. Yes. The economically they feed themselves. feed themselves. feed themselves. >> Is it the Exactly. People that are young >> Is it the Exactly. People that are young >> Is it the Exactly. People that are young help to support the people that are old. help to support the people that are old. help to support the people that are old. The ones that are entering the workforce The ones that are entering the workforce The ones that are entering the workforce and are driving innovation and are and are driving innovation and are and are driving innovation and are working 40-60 hour weeks, double jobs, working 40-60 hour weeks, double jobs, working 40-60 hour weeks, double jobs, all the rest of it. And then there's old all the rest of it. And then there's old all the rest of it. And then there's old people who've got 401(k)s and pensions people who've got 401(k)s and pensions people who've got 401(k)s and pensions and [ __ ] like that. Um and [ __ ] like that. Um and [ __ ] like that. Um your position is that if we have a world your position is that if we have a world your position is that if we have a world where the human part of the contribution where the human part of the contribution where the human part of the contribution to economic growth and GDP is removed to economic growth and GDP is removed to economic growth and GDP is removed because it is humans consuming AI but AI because it is humans consuming AI but AI because it is humans consuming AI but AI driving and data centers driving the driving and data centers driving the driving and data centers driving the revenue itself, revenue itself, revenue itself, beyond building the data centers, beyond building the data centers, beyond building the data centers, there's very little and I imagine much there's very little and I imagine much there's very little and I imagine much of that's done by robots in any case. Um of that's done by robots in any case. Um of that's done by robots in any case. Um Well, we have this joke that most Well, we have this joke that most Well, we have this joke that most people's occupation in the future we're people's occupation in the future we're people's occupation in the future we're headed towards with AI is to become a headed towards with AI is to become a headed towards with AI is to become a coffin builder. So, in other words, your coffin builder. So, in other words, your coffin builder. So, in other words, your job is to create the thing that replaces job is to create the thing that replaces job is to create the thing that replaces you and obsoletes you. So, you are you and obsoletes you. So, you are you and obsoletes you. So, you are essentially building the coffin for your essentially building the coffin for your essentially building the coffin for your future obsolescence. future obsolescence. future obsolescence. >> Yeah. Yeah. And so, if you're >> Yeah. Yeah. And so, if you're >> Yeah. Yeah. And so, if you're short-term, yes, we need the short-term, yes, we need the short-term, yes, we need the electricians and the plumbers and we're electricians and the plumbers and we're electricians and the plumbers and we're building data centers. Short-term, yes, building data centers. Short-term, yes, building data centers. Short-term, yes, you can be a programmer and get the you can be a programmer and get the you can be a programmer and get the benefit from vibe coding. But then the benefit from vibe coding. But then the benefit from vibe coding. But then the AIs are learning on all the things that AIs are learning on all the things that AIs are learning on all the things that you're doing. you're doing. you're doing. And it's it's taking all the training And it's it's taking all the training And it's it's taking all the training data of what you're doing with the AI data of what you're doing with the AI data of what you're doing with the AI and it's using that to train an AI that and it's using that to train an AI that and it's using that to train an AI that can take your job. So, everybody using can take your job. So, everybody using can take your job. So, everybody using AI now to help them is also uh training AI now to help them is also uh training AI now to help them is also uh training the future AIs that will completely the future AIs that will completely the future AIs that will completely replace them. And again, the explicit replace them. And again, the explicit replace them. And again, the explicit goal This is not my opinion. This is goal This is not my opinion. This is goal This is not my opinion. This is literally the mission statement of all literally the mission statement of all literally the mission statement of all of the AI companies because the the the of the AI companies because the the the of the AI companies because the the the multi-trillion-dollar prize at the end multi-trillion-dollar prize at the end multi-trillion-dollar prize at the end of the rainbow of owning the entire of the rainbow of owning the entire of the rainbow of owning the entire world economy is based on building this world economy is based on building this world economy is based on building this full replacement economy because that's full replacement economy because that's full replacement economy because that's what will achieve the greatest growth. what will achieve the greatest growth. what will achieve the greatest growth. And that's why these companies And that's why these companies And that's why these companies >> Replacement economy? Yeah, the meaning >> Replacement economy? Yeah, the meaning >> Replacement economy? Yeah, the meaning that they're they're designing to that they're they're designing to that they're they're designing to replace all human labor. They're not replace all human labor. They're not replace all human labor. They're not designed to augment and support and like designed to augment and support and like designed to augment and support and like enhance human labor. They're designing enhance human labor. They're designing enhance human labor. They're designing to replace all human labor because to replace all human labor because to replace all human labor because that's what justifies the amount of that's what justifies the amount of that's what justifies the amount of money that they've taken on in debt that money that they've taken on in debt that money that they've taken on in debt that they can grow into this like total they can grow into this like total they can grow into this like total ownership of the entire economy. What ownership of the entire economy. What ownership of the entire economy. What else is there to say about the else is there to say about the else is there to say about the intelligence curse? intelligence curse? intelligence curse? Well, it's just important for people to Well, it's just important for people to Well, it's just important for people to get that when the AIs are doing all the get that when the AIs are doing all the get that when the AIs are doing all the new scientific research, not humans. You new scientific research, not humans. You new scientific research, not humans. You have an automated chemistry lab, you have an automated chemistry lab, you have an automated chemistry lab, you have an automated biology lab, you have have an automated biology lab, you have have an automated biology lab, you have an automated surgery. an automated surgery. an automated surgery. When AI is doing all of that, again, the When AI is doing all of that, again, the When AI is doing all of that, again, the revenue is going to come from AI, not revenue is going to come from AI, not revenue is going to come from AI, not from people. And what that means is all from people. And what that means is all from people. And what that means is all the wealth will go to a handful of like the wealth will go to a handful of like the wealth will go to a handful of like five AI companies. And then how are you five AI companies. And then how are you five AI companies. And then how are you going to be able to make a living? going to be able to make a living? going to be able to make a living? When in history has a small group of When in history has a small group of When in history has a small group of people ever consolidated all the wealth people ever consolidated all the wealth people ever consolidated all the wealth and consciously redistributed it to and consciously redistributed it to and consciously redistributed it to everyone else? everyone else? everyone else? And if you think that might happen in And if you think that might happen in And if you think that might happen in the US, we'll do a universal basic the US, we'll do a universal basic the US, we'll do a universal basic income, just think about the entire income, just think about the entire income, just think about the entire world. So, right now you have AIs that world. So, right now you have AIs that world. So, right now you have AIs that are automating say customer service are automating say customer service are automating say customer service jobs. jobs. jobs. So, let's say that that disrupts like, So, let's say that that disrupts like, So, let's say that that disrupts like, you know, the Philippines where like 90% you know, the Philippines where like 90% you know, the Philippines where like 90% of the economy is customer service. I of the economy is customer service. I of the economy is customer service. I don't know what the number is. It's it's don't know what the number is. It's it's don't know what the number is. It's it's high. high. high. What happens when an entire country's What happens when an entire country's What happens when an entire country's economy gets disrupted by AI? economy gets disrupted by AI? economy gets disrupted by AI? Are a handful of US AI companies going Are a handful of US AI companies going Are a handful of US AI companies going to pay out and support the well-being to pay out and support the well-being to pay out and support the well-being and the livelihoods of all these other and the livelihoods of all these other and the livelihoods of all these other people? Like people? Like people? Like And then if people don't have money, how And then if people don't have money, how And then if people don't have money, how are they going to buy the goods in this are they going to buy the goods in this are they going to buy the goods in this future economy where it's all generated future economy where it's all generated future economy where it's all generated by AI? Because now you don't even have by AI? Because now you don't even have by AI? Because now you don't even have an income. an income. an income. So, this you know, what Essentially, So, this you know, what Essentially, So, this you know, what Essentially, we're on track to break the entire we're on track to break the entire we're on track to break the entire economy. economy. economy. This is not in the interest of of This is not in the interest of of This is not in the interest of of countries. What what's confusing to me countries. What what's confusing to me countries. What what's confusing to me about this is that I believe it only about this is that I believe it only about this is that I believe it only took something like 20% unemployment for took something like 20% unemployment for took something like 20% unemployment for a couple of years to lead to the rise of a couple of years to lead to the rise of a couple of years to lead to the rise of fascism in Germany. Um fascism in Germany. Um fascism in Germany. Um Mhm. You don't need everyone's job to be Mhm. You don't need everyone's job to be Mhm. You don't need everyone's job to be automated to get levels of political automated to get levels of political automated to get levels of political disruption. I think it was only 20% disruption. I think it was only 20% disruption. I think it was only 20% unemployment that basically led to the unemployment that basically led to the unemployment that basically led to the French Revolution. French Revolution. French Revolution. There's kind of a mutually assured There's kind of a mutually assured There's kind of a mutually assured political revolution that is going to political revolution that is going to political revolution that is going to happen for all these countries that are happen for all these countries that are happen for all these countries that are racing to build AI and deploy it to racing to build AI and deploy it to racing to build AI and deploy it to automate as much labor as possible to automate as much labor as possible to automate as much labor as possible to compete to boost their external GDP compete to boost their external GDP compete to boost their external GDP number. Like the metaphor you can have number. Like the metaphor you can have number. Like the metaphor you can have in your minds is like the US and China in your minds is like the US and China in your minds is like the US and China are essentially racing to take steroids are essentially racing to take steroids are essentially racing to take steroids and pumping up the GDP and muscles of and pumping up the GDP and muscles of and pumping up the GDP and muscles of their economy while they're getting their economy while they're getting their economy while they're getting internal lung failure, internal organ internal lung failure, internal organ internal lung failure, internal organ failure, internal brain rot failure failure, internal brain rot failure failure, internal brain rot failure because they're governing the internal because they're governing the internal because they're governing the internal impact of that technology poorly. Mhm. impact of that technology poorly. Mhm. impact of that technology poorly. Mhm. So, it's a race for external power while So, it's a race for external power while So, it's a race for external power while internal management of essentially like internal management of essentially like internal management of essentially like a you know, failure of your body organs. a you know, failure of your body organs. a you know, failure of your body organs. Does that make sense? Yeah, what does Does that make sense? Yeah, what does Does that make sense? Yeah, what does external power look like in this external power look like in this external power look like in this context? Well, um um you know, one of the reasons that people you know, one of the reasons that people you know, one of the reasons that people think of AI is so important for think of AI is so important for think of AI is so important for competition competition competition is if you think about geopolitical is if you think about geopolitical is if you think about geopolitical competition with China, competition with China, competition with China, economic power precedes other kinds of economic power precedes other kinds of economic power precedes other kinds of power. If I have a high growth rate power. If I have a high growth rate power. If I have a high growth rate economy, that'll lead to the ability to economy, that'll lead to the ability to economy, that'll lead to the ability to invest more in a bigger military, bigger invest more in a bigger military, bigger invest more in a bigger military, bigger weapons, a bit more advanced science, weapons, a bit more advanced science, weapons, a bit more advanced science, more advanced technology cuz you just more advanced technology cuz you just more advanced technology cuz you just have more money to deploy. have more money to deploy. have more money to deploy. And so, economic competition is a And so, economic competition is a And so, economic competition is a precursor for geopolitical competition. precursor for geopolitical competition. precursor for geopolitical competition. So, when we say, you know, competing for So, when we say, you know, competing for So, when we say, you know, competing for this external power, we mean competing this external power, we mean competing this external power, we mean competing for GDP growth. But again, we're for GDP growth. But again, we're for GDP growth. But again, we're competing for GDP growth that doesn't competing for GDP growth that doesn't competing for GDP growth that doesn't mean what it used to me. I think a lot mean what it used to me. I think a lot mean what it used to me. I think a lot of people think, "Okay, well, if GDP is of people think, "Okay, well, if GDP is of people think, "Okay, well, if GDP is going up by like 10% cuz AI is going up by like 10% cuz AI is going up by like 10% cuz AI is automating all this growth, that automating all this growth, that automating all this growth, that >> That sounds awesome. >> That sounds awesome. >> That sounds awesome. >> I was going to say like >> I was going to say like >> I was going to say like increases in GDP are almost always a increases in GDP are almost always a increases in GDP are almost always a universal good thing. They had been when universal good thing. They had been when universal good thing. They had been when it was humans that were generating that it was humans that were generating that it was humans that were generating that and then it was coming back to humans. and then it was coming back to humans. and then it was coming back to humans. Because the revenue is going to be Because the revenue is going to be Because the revenue is going to be consolidated in a very small number of consolidated in a very small number of consolidated in a very small number of people. people. people. >> case, we have five companies that >> case, we have five companies that >> case, we have five companies that >> there's no intermediary Yeah. between >> there's no intermediary Yeah. between >> there's no intermediary Yeah. between So, who would be feeding the revenue in? So, who would be feeding the revenue in? So, who would be feeding the revenue in? >> This revenue still needs to come from >> This revenue still needs to come from >> This revenue still needs to come from somewhere even if it goes to a a a small somewhere even if it goes to a a a small somewhere even if it goes to a a a small handful of people, where does the actual handful of people, where does the actual handful of people, where does the actual money come from? money come from? money come from? >> Well, this is the confusing thing. What >> Well, this is the confusing thing. What >> Well, this is the confusing thing. What what happens How do you what happens How do you what happens How do you >> Is that a stupid question? >> Is that a stupid question? >> Is that a stupid question? >> No, no, it's a good question because how >> No, no, it's a good question because how >> No, no, it's a good question because how You're saying basically who's going to You're saying basically who's going to You're saying basically who's going to be buying the products when no one has a be buying the products when no one has a be buying the products when no one has a job and no one has an income? And on the job and no one has an income? And on the job and no one has an income? And on the route up to that, yeah, as fewer people route up to that, yeah, as fewer people route up to that, yeah, as fewer people have incomes and fewer people have jobs, have incomes and fewer people have jobs, have incomes and fewer people have jobs, the the the the the the the the the bucket being pulled into the top bucket being pulled into the top bucket being pulled into the top >> That's right. is going to stop being >> That's right. is going to stop being >> That's right. is going to stop being pulled. Yeah. Yeah. It This is the pulled. Yeah. Yeah. It This is the pulled. Yeah. Yeah. It This is the confusing and mind-breaking thing about confusing and mind-breaking thing about confusing and mind-breaking thing about AI and it just In general, like I think AI and it just In general, like I think AI and it just In general, like I think people have to get used to. I mean, your people have to get used to. I mean, your people have to get used to. I mean, your podcast is called Modern Wisdom and I podcast is called Modern Wisdom and I podcast is called Modern Wisdom and I just think about this a lot. Like what just think about this a lot. Like what just think about this a lot. Like what are the wise capabilities that we need are the wise capabilities that we need are the wise capabilities that we need to have in order to make our way through to have in order to make our way through to have in order to make our way through this. And one of them is the ability to this. And one of them is the ability to this. And one of them is the ability to be with something that sounds like be with something that sounds like be with something that sounds like science fiction science fiction science fiction and realize that it's actually real. and realize that it's actually real. and realize that it's actually real. Like and not say because it sounds like Like and not say because it sounds like Like and not say because it sounds like it's science fiction that I can just it's science fiction that I can just it's science fiction that I can just like dismiss it and say that can't be like dismiss it and say that can't be like dismiss it and say that can't be true. A lot of people do that. They're true. A lot of people do that. They're true. A lot of people do that. They're like, "AIs that are like breaking out of like, "AIs that are like breaking out of like, "AIs that are like breaking out of their container and hacking GPUs and their container and hacking GPUs and their container and hacking GPUs and mining crypto autonomously when no one mining crypto autonomously when no one mining crypto autonomously when no one told it to do that, that that's got to told it to do that, that that's got to told it to do that, that that's got to be like a made-up study." But as we we be like a made-up study." But as we we be like a made-up study." But as we we know, there was an Alibaba study just know, there was an Alibaba study just know, there was an Alibaba study just last week where the AIs autonomously last week where the AIs autonomously last week where the AIs autonomously broke out of their their system and broke out of their their system and broke out of their their system and started mining crypto. started mining crypto. started mining crypto. >> we need we need to round this out and >> we need we need to round this out and >> we need we need to round this out and then I want to talk about that. then I want to talk about that. then I want to talk about that. >> Sure. Sure. Sure. That that that story >> Sure. Sure. Sure. That that that story >> Sure. Sure. Sure. That that that story is [ __ ] terrifying. Yeah. Yeah. So, is [ __ ] terrifying. Yeah. Yeah. So, is [ __ ] terrifying. Yeah. Yeah. So, where where does where does the economy where where does where does the economy where where does where does the economy What Who's who's pouring money in? What Who's who's pouring money in? What Who's who's pouring money in? I mean, the truth is that I don't know. I mean, the truth is that I don't know. I mean, the truth is that I don't know. I don't think anybody has an answer. I don't think anybody has an answer. I don't think anybody has an answer. >> going to grind to a halt at some point? >> going to grind to a halt at some point? >> going to grind to a halt at some point? I I think something like that. Yeah. I I I think something like that. Yeah. I I I think something like that. Yeah. I mean, I I I don't think that there's mean, I I I don't think that there's mean, I I I don't think that there's I think something that people need to I think something that people need to I think something that people need to get is it's not like there's a plan for get is it's not like there's a plan for get is it's not like there's a plan for how to make all this go well. Like this how to make all this go well. Like this how to make all this go well. Like this this technology is being released in a this technology is being released in a this technology is being released in a paradigm-undermining paradigm-undermining paradigm-undermining way. Like it's undermining the paradigm way. Like it's undermining the paradigm way. Like it's undermining the paradigm of economic assumptions and sort of of economic assumptions and sort of of economic assumptions and sort of societal assumptions that have made the societal assumptions that have made the societal assumptions that have made the post-World War II order. This is a This post-World War II order. This is a This post-World War II order. This is a This is such a deep fundamental change to the is such a deep fundamental change to the is such a deep fundamental change to the restructuring of everything. restructuring of everything. restructuring of everything. Our economic system, our relationships, Our economic system, our relationships, Our economic system, our relationships, um our information environment. It's not um our information environment. It's not um our information environment. It's not just like adding a new technology in the just like adding a new technology in the just like adding a new technology in the mix, it's like fundamentally changing mix, it's like fundamentally changing mix, it's like fundamentally changing the structure of the entire world. Mhm. the structure of the entire world. Mhm. the structure of the entire world. Mhm. You would think that if we're about to You would think that if we're about to You would think that if we're about to do that, we would do that with more do that, we would do that with more do that, we would do that with more careful more caution, care, wisdom, and careful more caution, care, wisdom, and careful more caution, care, wisdom, and restraint than we have with any restraint than we have with any restraint than we have with any technology we've ever deployed. If we technology we've ever deployed. If we technology we've ever deployed. If we knew we're about to undermine the knew we're about to undermine the knew we're about to undermine the paradigm. But because of this arms race paradigm. But because of this arms race paradigm. But because of this arms race dynamic, we are deploying it faster than dynamic, we are deploying it faster than dynamic, we are deploying it faster than we deployed any technology in history we deployed any technology in history we deployed any technology in history and therefore undermining these things and therefore undermining these things and therefore undermining these things faster than we can have a plan. faster than we can have a plan. faster than we can have a plan. 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Uh you were a big part of putting me onto that and big part of putting me onto that and big part of putting me onto that and then I got interested in the Future of then I got interested in the Future of then I got interested in the Future of Humanity Institute, Nick Bostrom, Humanity Institute, Nick Bostrom, Humanity Institute, Nick Bostrom, William MacAskill, Eliezer Yudkowsky, William MacAskill, Eliezer Yudkowsky, William MacAskill, Eliezer Yudkowsky, uh lesswrong.com, the Scott Alexander da uh lesswrong.com, the Scott Alexander da uh lesswrong.com, the Scott Alexander da da da da da Yeah. da da da da Yeah. da da da da Yeah. For a long time the concern was AI For a long time the concern was AI For a long time the concern was AI safety. Mhm. It was around safety. Mhm. It was around safety. Mhm. It was around uh paperclip maximizing. It was uh paperclip maximizing. It was uh paperclip maximizing. It was um um um any function that is given to a very, any function that is given to a very, any function that is given to a very, very powerful agent very powerful agent very powerful agent that is even remotely slightly imprecise that is even remotely slightly imprecise that is even remotely slightly imprecise or even not results in some outcomes or even not results in some outcomes or even not results in some outcomes that you probably don't want. that you probably don't want. that you probably don't want. >> That's right. What you're suggesting is >> That's right. What you're suggesting is >> That's right. What you're suggesting is that even if this goes right Yeah. Yeah. that even if this goes right Yeah. Yeah. that even if this goes right Yeah. Yeah. the outcome This is This is it going the outcome This is This is it going the outcome This is This is it going well. well. well. >> Yeah, exactly. This is called the >> Yeah, exactly. This is called the >> Yeah, exactly. This is called the best-case scenario where you're having best-case scenario where you're having best-case scenario where you're having an aligned AI or something that's not an aligned AI or something that's not an aligned AI or something that's not wrecking society, that's not maximizing wrecking society, that's not maximizing wrecking society, that's not maximizing paperclips, that's not misaligned with paperclips, that's not misaligned with paperclips, that's not misaligned with well-being, but that is still doing such well-being, but that is still doing such well-being, but that is still doing such a good job of all this that it takes a good job of all this that it takes a good job of all this that it takes over all the economic labor over all the economic labor over all the economic labor in the economy, not just economic. Every in the economy, not just economic. Every in the economy, not just economic. Every company that has a CEO, it's like, well, company that has a CEO, it's like, well, company that has a CEO, it's like, well, do I want the CEO to run the company or do I want the CEO to run the company or do I want the CEO to run the company or if I have a superintelligent AI that can if I have a superintelligent AI that can if I have a superintelligent AI that can process more information than the CEO process more information than the CEO process more information than the CEO and it's trained on everything in the and it's trained on everything in the and it's trained on everything in the history of business, at some point that history of business, at some point that history of business, at some point that AI is going to be taking over. And so at AI is going to be taking over. And so at AI is going to be taking over. And so at every little nodule in the economy, like every little nodule in the economy, like every little nodule in the economy, like every decision-maker, every boardroom, every decision-maker, every boardroom, every decision-maker, every boardroom, every military leader, every strategy every military leader, every strategy every military leader, every strategy leader, every president, at some point leader, every president, at some point leader, every president, at some point the temptation will be if I think about the temptation will be if I think about the temptation will be if I think about it in a narrow way, it in a narrow way, it in a narrow way, the temptation will be to swap in an AI the temptation will be to swap in an AI the temptation will be to swap in an AI for that person. for that person. >> [snorts] >> And that leads to what we call the >> And that leads to what we call the >> And that leads to what we call the gradual disempowerment scenario, gradual disempowerment scenario, gradual disempowerment scenario, which is the scenario not where like AI which is the scenario not where like AI which is the scenario not where like AI wakes up and kills everybody, but that wakes up and kills everybody, but that wakes up and kills everybody, but that we have gradually lost control as a we have gradually lost control as a we have gradually lost control as a species because we're outsourcing all species because we're outsourcing all species because we're outsourcing all the decisions to these alien brains that the decisions to these alien brains that the decisions to these alien brains that we installed because they outperform the we installed because they outperform the we installed because they outperform the human brain when you define their role human brain when you define their role human brain when you define their role in a narrow way of just like, are they in a narrow way of just like, are they in a narrow way of just like, are they better at generating revenue than the better at generating revenue than the better at generating revenue than the human was? Are they better at generating human was? Are they better at generating human was? Are they better at generating code than the human programmer I had? code than the human programmer I had? code than the human programmer I had? Are they better at generating a Are they better at generating a Are they better at generating a financial analysis than the human? financial analysis than the human? financial analysis than the human? Are they better at making someone feel Are they better at making someone feel Are they better at making someone feel good in the short term like an AI good in the short term like an AI good in the short term like an AI therapist does than the human? Going to therapist does than the human? Going to therapist does than the human? Going to war. A soldier. But the temptation then war. A soldier. But the temptation then war. A soldier. But the temptation then is that that again that leads to a world is that that again that leads to a world is that that again that leads to a world where it's like AIs are are talking to where it's like AIs are are talking to where it's like AIs are are talking to each other, not humans. each other, not humans. each other, not humans. >> [sighs] >> [sighs] >> [sighs] [snorts] [snorts] [snorts] >> And why should we trust that these alien >> And why should we trust that these alien >> And why should we trust that these alien brains that we have built and developed brains that we have built and developed brains that we have built and developed faster than we know how to understand faster than we know how to understand faster than we know how to understand them? We just talked about the them? We just talked about the them? We just talked about the beginning, we don't know how to do a beginning, we don't know how to do a beginning, we don't know how to do a brain scan of the AI and know what it's brain scan of the AI and know what it's brain scan of the AI and know what it's capable of. And now we already have capable of. And now we already have capable of. And now we already have evidence of AIs doing very rogue, crazy evidence of AIs doing very rogue, crazy evidence of AIs doing very rogue, crazy things, especially when they talk to things, especially when they talk to things, especially when they talk to each other. each other. each other. So what happens when you've outsourced So what happens when you've outsourced So what happens when you've outsourced the decision-making in your economy the decision-making in your economy the decision-making in your economy to a set of inscrutable alien brains to a set of inscrutable alien brains to a set of inscrutable alien brains that are doing crazy things that we that are doing crazy things that we that are doing crazy things that we don't understand? don't understand? don't understand? Like this is this is not a recipe that's Like this is this is not a recipe that's Like this is this is not a recipe that's going to go well. And if we see that going to go well. And if we see that going to go well. And if we see that that's an anti-human future. So let me that's an anti-human future. So let me that's an anti-human future. So let me just sum it all up. just sum it all up. just sum it all up. The anti-human future is one where AIs The anti-human future is one where AIs The anti-human future is one where AIs run everything, we don't understand run everything, we don't understand run everything, we don't understand them, humans are disempowered because them, humans are disempowered because them, humans are disempowered because we've outsourced all the we've outsourced all the we've outsourced all the decision-making, and we don't have decision-making, and we don't have decision-making, and we don't have economic or political voice. Like why economic or political voice. Like why economic or political voice. Like why should governments should governments should governments >> concentrated. >> concentrated. >> concentrated. >> It's been concentrated. So if I'm a >> It's been concentrated. So if I'm a >> It's been concentrated. So if I'm a government, what's my incentive to government, what's my incentive to government, what's my incentive to listen to the will of the people when I listen to the will of the people when I listen to the will of the people when I get all my revenue from somewhere else? get all my revenue from somewhere else? get all my revenue from somewhere else? And this this is connected to, you know, And this this is connected to, you know, And this this is connected to, you know, Sam Altman just 2 weeks ago when he was Sam Altman just 2 weeks ago when he was Sam Altman just 2 weeks ago when he was people were talking about data centers people were talking about data centers people were talking about data centers and energy usage and resource usage like and energy usage and resource usage like and energy usage and resource usage like so expensive to do a data center. He's so expensive to do a data center. He's so expensive to do a data center. He's like, well, actually it's kind of like, well, actually it's kind of like, well, actually it's kind of expensive to grow a human over 20 years. expensive to grow a human over 20 years. expensive to grow a human over 20 years. They consume a lot of resources. They They consume a lot of resources. They They consume a lot of resources. They take up a lot of space. They They take take up a lot of space. They They take take up a lot of space. They They take like 20, 30 years to train to be really like 20, 30 years to train to be really like 20, 30 years to train to be really effective. And like you can scale effective. And like you can scale effective. And like you can scale intelligence much faster with data intelligence much faster with data intelligence much faster with data centers. I'm not endorsing this view. centers. I'm not endorsing this view. centers. I'm not endorsing this view. I'm saying this is this is where the the I'm saying this is this is where the the I'm saying this is this is where the the world gets really screwed up and people world gets really screwed up and people world gets really screwed up and people start to not value humans start to not value humans start to not value humans only if you're valuing them in terms of only if you're valuing them in terms of only if you're valuing them in terms of their economic output. It leads to to their economic output. It leads to to their economic output. It leads to to connect it to another point. When he's connect it to another point. When he's connect it to another point. When he's asked by Ross Douthat in the New York asked by Ross Douthat in the New York asked by Ross Douthat in the New York Times, Times, Times, should the human species survive? Should should the human species survive? Should should the human species survive? Should it endure? And Peter Thiel stutters for it endure? And Peter Thiel stutters for it endure? And Peter Thiel stutters for 17 seconds. 17 seconds. 17 seconds. >> on. You've seen the full clip of that, >> on. You've seen the full clip of that, >> on. You've seen the full clip of that, right? Have you seen the context before? right? Have you seen the context before? right? Have you seen the context before? Yeah. You but he's talking about Yeah. You but he's talking about Yeah. You but he's talking about suffering. Yeah. I I I think that clip suffering. Yeah. I I I think that clip suffering. Yeah. I I I think that clip and the fact that it went super viral. and the fact that it went super viral. and the fact that it went super viral. I'm not a Thiel stan. I've I've met him I'm not a Thiel stan. I've I've met him I'm not a Thiel stan. I've I've met him a couple of times, but I'm not I'm I'm a couple of times, but I'm not I'm I'm a couple of times, but I'm not I'm I'm not like Thiel uh not like Thiel uh not like Thiel uh evangelist. evangelist. evangelist. But that clip But that clip But that clip >> Yeah. in full context to me made >> Yeah. in full context to me made >> Yeah. in full context to me made complete sense. complete sense. complete sense. >> Interesting. Because what he's saying is >> Interesting. Because what he's saying is >> Interesting. Because what he's saying is humans are suffering humans are suffering humans are suffering and and and Here it is. I would argue that it was Here it is. I would argue that it was Here it is. I would argue that it was still better than the alternative that still better than the alternative that still better than the alternative that if we hadn't had the internet, um maybe if we hadn't had the internet, um maybe if we hadn't had the internet, um maybe it would have been worse. AI's better it would have been worse. AI's better it would have been worse. AI's better It's better than the alternative and the It's better than the alternative and the It's better than the alternative and the alternative is nothing at all because alternative is nothing at all because alternative is nothing at all because the stat Look, here's one place where the stat Look, here's one place where the stat Look, here's one place where the stagnationist arguments the stagnationist arguments the stagnationist arguments are still reinforced. The fact that are still reinforced. The fact that are still reinforced. The fact that we're only talking about AI, we're only talking about AI, we're only talking about AI, I feel is always an implicit I feel is always an implicit I feel is always an implicit acknowledgement that but for AI, acknowledgement that but for AI, acknowledgement that but for AI, we are like in almost total stagnation. we are like in almost total stagnation. we are like in almost total stagnation. But the world of AI But the world of AI But the world of AI is fit is clearly filled with people who is fit is clearly filled with people who is fit is clearly filled with people who at the very least seem to have a more at the very least seem to have a more at the very least seem to have a more utopian, transformative, whatever word utopian, transformative, whatever word utopian, transformative, whatever word you want to call it, view of the you want to call it, view of the you want to call it, view of the technology than than you're expressing technology than than you're expressing technology than than you're expressing here, right? And you you were mentioned here, right? And you you were mentioned here, right? And you you were mentioned earlier the idea that earlier the idea that earlier the idea that that the modern world used to promise that the modern world used to promise that the modern world used to promise radical life extension and doesn't radical life extension and doesn't radical life extension and doesn't anymore. It seems very clear to me that anymore. It seems very clear to me that anymore. It seems very clear to me that a number of people deeply involved in a number of people deeply involved in a number of people deeply involved in artificial intelligence see it as a kind artificial intelligence see it as a kind artificial intelligence see it as a kind of mechanism for transhumanism, for of mechanism for transhumanism, for of mechanism for transhumanism, for transcendence of our mortal flesh and transcendence of our mortal flesh and transcendence of our mortal flesh and either some kind of creation of a either some kind of creation of a either some kind of creation of a successor species or some kind of merger successor species or some kind of merger successor species or some kind of merger of mind and machine. of mind and machine. of mind and machine. And And And do you think that's just all do you think that's just all do you think that's just all kind of irrelevant fantasy? Or do you think it's just hype? Do you Or do you think it's just hype? Do you think people are trying to raise money think people are trying to raise money think people are trying to raise money by pretending that we're going to become by pretending that we're going to become by pretending that we're going to become build a machine god, right? Is it is it build a machine god, right? Is it is it build a machine god, right? Is it is it hype? Is it delusion? Is it something hype? Is it delusion? Is it something hype? Is it delusion? Is it something you worry about? You I think you would you worry about? You I think you would you worry about? You I think you would you would prefer the human race to you would prefer the human race to you would prefer the human race to endure, right? endure, right? endure, right? Uh Uh Uh You're hesitant. You're hesitant. You're hesitant. >> I Yes? >> I Yes? >> I Yes? >> I don't know. I I would >> I don't know. I I would >> I don't know. I I would I would um I would um I would um This is a long hesitation. This is a This is a long hesitation. This is a This is a long hesitation. This is a long hesitation. long hesitation. long hesitation. >> so many questions implicit in this. >> so many questions implicit in this. >> so many questions implicit in this. >> race survive? >> race survive? >> race survive? Uh yes. Okay. Uh yes. Okay. Uh yes. Okay. >> But but uh I I also would um I would I I >> But but uh I I also would um I would I I >> But but uh I I also would um I would I I also would like us to to radically solve also would like us to to radically solve also would like us to to radically solve these problems. these problems. these problems. >> Right. And uh and so, you know, it's >> Right. And uh and so, you know, it's >> Right. And uh and so, you know, it's always I don't know. Um always I don't know. Um always I don't know. Um you know, you know, you know, yeah, transhumanism yeah, transhumanism yeah, transhumanism is this you know, the ideal was this is this you know, the ideal was this is this you know, the ideal was this radical transformation where your human radical transformation where your human radical transformation where your human natural body gets transformed into an natural body gets transformed into an natural body gets transformed into an immortal body. immortal body. immortal body. >> We may have needed to go a little bit >> We may have needed to go a little bit >> We may have needed to go a little bit earlier in that or I thought that that earlier in that or I thought that that earlier in that or I thought that that actually feels consistent with actually feels consistent with actually feels consistent with everything. That doesn't look great. I everything. That doesn't look great. I everything. That doesn't look great. I may have misremembered. I'm open to may have misremembered. I'm open to may have misremembered. I'm open to misremembering. I mean, he's asked a misremembering. I mean, he's asked a misremembering. I mean, he's asked a very simple question, should the human very simple question, should the human very simple question, should the human species endure or survive? Yeah. I think species endure or survive? Yeah. I think species endure or survive? Yeah. I think >> I think that >> I think that >> I think that >> Like if would you hesitate in that >> Like if would you hesitate in that >> Like if would you hesitate in that question? No. I would not hesitate in question? No. I would not hesitate in question? No. I would not hesitate in that question. that question. that question. >> The context that I remember it being in >> The context that I remember it being in >> The context that I remember it being in was he was asking about human suffer and was he was asking about human suffer and was he was asking about human suffer and they have all of these issues. Should they have all of these issues. Should they have all of these issues. Should they endure to go through those issues they endure to go through those issues they endure to go through those issues and and and the suffering as opposed to and and and the suffering as opposed to and and and the suffering as opposed to using transhumanism? Yeah, but I think I using transhumanism? Yeah, but I think I using transhumanism? Yeah, but I think I don't think don't think don't think >> No, you're right. >> No, you're right. >> No, you're right. >> I think that if if you look just >> I think that if if you look just >> I think that if if you look just specifically at that And we gave it we specifically at that And we gave it we specifically at that And we gave it we gave it what, 2 minutes of context gave it what, 2 minutes of context gave it what, 2 minutes of context before as well. No, you're right. You're before as well. No, you're right. You're before as well. No, you're right. You're right. You're right. That I mean right. You're right. That I mean right. You're right. That I mean The The point doesn't look great. So The The point doesn't look great. So The The point doesn't look great. So yeah, exactly. It doesn't look great. yeah, exactly. It doesn't look great. yeah, exactly. It doesn't look great. Now, the point is that um Now, the point is that um Now, the point is that um in history in history in history changes in technology have changed what changes in technology have changed what changes in technology have changed what we value. we value. we value. Um there's a thinker named um Um there's a thinker named um Um there's a thinker named um Marvin Harris wrote a book called Marvin Harris wrote a book called Marvin Harris wrote a book called Cultural Materialism. Daniel Cultural Materialism. Daniel Cultural Materialism. Daniel Schmachtenberger put me onto this and Schmachtenberger put me onto this and Schmachtenberger put me onto this and this is the history of how essentially a this is the history of how essentially a this is the history of how essentially a civilization, he summarizes, is its civilization, he summarizes, is its civilization, he summarizes, is its infrastructure, which is its technology infrastructure, which is its technology infrastructure, which is its technology stack, its social structure, which is stack, its social structure, which is stack, its social structure, which is economics, law, and governance, and then economics, law, and governance, and then economics, law, and governance, and then the superstructure, which is the the superstructure, which is the the superstructure, which is the ordinating values, religion, patriotism, ordinating values, religion, patriotism, ordinating values, religion, patriotism, narratives, like what are the things narratives, like what are the things narratives, like what are the things that we hold sacred? So for example, that we hold sacred? So for example, that we hold sacred? So for example, we used to have animism. We believed we used to have animism. We believed we used to have animism. We believed that animals and life and all of this is that animals and life and all of this is that animals and life and all of this is sacred. And then when you the example sacred. And then when you the example sacred. And then when you the example that Daniel gives is when you yoke an ox that Daniel gives is when you yoke an ox that Daniel gives is when you yoke an ox and you beat an ox every day, you can no and you beat an ox every day, you can no and you beat an ox every day, you can no longer fully believe in the animist view longer fully believe in the animist view longer fully believe in the animist view of life cuz you you you're basically of life cuz you you you're basically of life cuz you you you're basically you know, hurting animals all day. Can you know, hurting animals all day. Can you know, hurting animals all day. Can you believe that animals are sacred or you believe that animals are sacred or you believe that animals are sacred or that they experience suffering if you that they experience suffering if you that they experience suffering if you eat meat meat in factory farming every eat meat meat in factory farming every eat meat meat in factory farming every day? day? day? Like it's a it's a contradictory thing. Like it's a it's a contradictory thing. Like it's a it's a contradictory thing. So as we get changes in technology, it So as we get changes in technology, it So as we get changes in technology, it changes what we value. changes what we value. changes what we value. Um and there's a long history of this Um and there's a long history of this Um and there's a long history of this and people should look up uh Marvin and people should look up uh Marvin and people should look up uh Marvin Harris. Harris. Harris. When you get a change in technology When you get a change in technology When you get a change in technology called AI called AI called AI and you now no longer need humans for and you now no longer need humans for and you now no longer need humans for the narrowly defined quote value of the narrowly defined quote value of the narrowly defined quote value of economic output. economic output. economic output. Now, it's not clear that economic output Now, it's not clear that economic output Now, it's not clear that economic output on its own is actually valuable in the on its own is actually valuable in the on its own is actually valuable in the way that we have traditionally thought way that we have traditionally thought way that we have traditionally thought it to be because it it's correlated with it to be because it it's correlated with it to be because it it's correlated with human well-being for the past, but now human well-being for the past, but now human well-being for the past, but now we're about to get this weird kind of we're about to get this weird kind of we're about to get this weird kind of zombie form of economic output where you zombie form of economic output where you zombie form of economic output where you have maybe no humans in the world at have maybe no humans in the world at have maybe no humans in the world at all. You just have AI pumping away all. You just have AI pumping away all. You just have AI pumping away generating scientific insights generating scientific insights generating scientific insights and there's no humans. and there's no humans. and there's no humans. In that world, you start to view humans In that world, you start to view humans In that world, you start to view humans as kind of as kind of as kind of valueless or like parasites or saying valueless or like parasites or saying valueless or like parasites or saying well, it takes a lot of energy and and well, it takes a lot of energy and and well, it takes a lot of energy and and resources to grow a human. resources to grow a human. resources to grow a human. There's a very dangerous thing here that There's a very dangerous thing here that There's a very dangerous thing here that I think we don't want to lean into. I think we don't want to lean into. I think we don't want to lean into. This is part of the anti-human future. This is part of the anti-human future. This is part of the anti-human future. This is part of the intelligence curse. This is part of the intelligence curse. This is part of the intelligence curse. This is part of This is part of This is part of you know, you know, you know, Mark Zuckerberg saying um Mark Zuckerberg saying um Mark Zuckerberg saying um we need to replace your human we need to replace your human we need to replace your human relationships with AI relationships. I relationships with AI relationships. I relationships with AI relationships. I don't know if you've seen this quote. don't know if you've seen this quote. don't know if you've seen this quote. He's like there's a there's a clip of He's like there's a there's a clip of He's like there's a there's a clip of him online. You can find it where he's him online. You can find it where he's him online. You can find it where he's talking about the average person has talking about the average person has talking about the average person has only like two or three close only like two or three close only like two or three close relationships. Like people are so relationships. Like people are so relationships. Like people are so lonely. He's like, "Oh, but then we lonely. He's like, "Oh, but then we lonely. He's like, "Oh, but then we thought that there was a real solution thought that there was a real solution thought that there was a real solution to this. We could give people uh you to this. We could give people uh you to this. We could give people uh you know, 11 AI friends and different know, 11 AI friends and different know, 11 AI friends and different friends and that this will quote solve friends and that this will quote solve friends and that this will quote solve loneliness." Isn't that a bad thing loneliness." Isn't that a bad thing loneliness." Isn't that a bad thing given that we are in a world I I'm aware given that we are in a world I I'm aware given that we are in a world I I'm aware that it's an artificial solution to an that it's an artificial solution to an that it's an artificial solution to an artificial problem. A problem that he artificial problem. A problem that he artificial problem. A problem that he created by the way that social media at created by the way that social media at created by the way that social media at large by maximizing engagement which large by maximizing engagement which large by maximizing engagement which means maximizing how many hours you means maximizing how many hours you means maximizing how many hours you spend by yourself on a screen not spend by yourself on a screen not spend by yourself on a screen not talking to people which means being talking to people which means being talking to people which means being inside on a Tuesday night not texting inside on a Tuesday night not texting inside on a Tuesday night not texting your friends to be out which means your friends to be out which means your friends to be out which means maximizing loneliness. Loneliness is a maximizing loneliness. Loneliness is a maximizing loneliness. Loneliness is a direct consequence with the maximized direct consequence with the maximized direct consequence with the maximized engagement economy. engagement economy. engagement economy. Facebook and Instagram and all of that Facebook and Instagram and all of that Facebook and Instagram and all of that have massively fed into the trend of have massively fed into the trend of have massively fed into the trend of loneliness and then he's saying we need loneliness and then he's saying we need loneliness and then he's saying we need to solve that with more technology. to solve that with more technology. to solve that with more technology. So, this is like a this is like a So, this is like a this is like a So, this is like a this is like a company that's generating cancer on one company that's generating cancer on one company that's generating cancer on one side of the balance sheet and then side of the balance sheet and then side of the balance sheet and then selling you solutions to cancer on the selling you solutions to cancer on the selling you solutions to cancer on the other side of the balance sheet. We have other side of the balance sheet. We have other side of the balance sheet. We have Wegovy Wegovy Wegovy and tirzepatide and retatrutide and tirzepatide and retatrutide and tirzepatide and retatrutide which is an artificial solution to an which is an artificial solution to an which is an artificial solution to an artificial food landscape. Yeah. Um artificial food landscape. Yeah. Um artificial food landscape. Yeah. Um I think that playing within the confines I think that playing within the confines I think that playing within the confines of the current structure it's impossible of the current structure it's impossible of the current structure it's impossible to expect that we'll we'll get rid of to expect that we'll we'll get rid of to expect that we'll we'll get rid of infinite scroll. infinite scroll. infinite scroll. We'll stop autoplay cuz that would We'll stop autoplay cuz that would We'll stop autoplay cuz that would improve human flourishing. That's not improve human flourishing. That's not improve human flourishing. That's not going to happen. So, I think that you going to happen. So, I think that you going to happen. So, I think that you are going to But it could happen if you are going to But it could happen if you are going to But it could happen if you had the right the right policies in had the right the right policies in had the right the right policies in place. That's true, but that's not going place. That's true, but that's not going place. That's true, but that's not going to happen by any individual social media to happen by any individual social media to happen by any individual social media company. company. company. >> no, it won't. Which is why that but the >> no, it won't. Which is why that but the >> no, it won't. Which is why that but the the whole thing here is is the answer is the whole thing here is is the answer is the whole thing here is is the answer is we have to coordinate. In the film The we have to coordinate. In the film The we have to coordinate. In the film The AI Doctors, there's this moment like AI Doctors, there's this moment like AI Doctors, there's this moment like what do we have to do? And there's like what do we have to do? And there's like what do we have to do? And there's like 10 voices at the same time saying, 10 voices at the same time saying, 10 voices at the same time saying, "Coordinate." Like we have to "Coordinate." Like we have to "Coordinate." Like we have to coordinate. That's part of the solution coordinate. That's part of the solution coordinate. That's part of the solution is you have to collectively say, "What is you have to collectively say, "What is you have to collectively say, "What is the rule that would benefit everybody is the rule that would benefit everybody is the rule that would benefit everybody to do the better thing even though to do the better thing even though to do the better thing even though short-term we might lose something tiny short-term we might lose something tiny short-term we might lose something tiny like how many videos you get to go like how many videos you get to go like how many videos you get to go through in in 5 minutes or something through in in 5 minutes or something through in in 5 minutes or something like that. like that. like that. 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Right now, you can get a free sample pack of now, you can get a free sample pack of now, you can get a free sample pack of Element's most popular flavors with your Element's most popular flavors with your Element's most popular flavors with your first purchase by going to the link in first purchase by going to the link in first purchase by going to the link in the description below or heading to the description below or heading to the description below or heading to drinklmnt.com/modernwisdom. modern wisdom. modern wisdom. Let's talk about AI safety. What Let's talk about AI safety. What Let's talk about AI safety. What happened with this Alibaba AI? happened with this Alibaba AI? happened with this Alibaba AI? Basically, this was a paper by um this Basically, this was a paper by um this Basically, this was a paper by um this is an AI research by the company is an AI research by the company is an AI research by the company Alibaba. It's one of the leading Chinese Alibaba. It's one of the leading Chinese Alibaba. It's one of the leading Chinese models and they basically like randomly models and they basically like randomly models and they basically like randomly discovered in one morning that their discovered in one morning that their discovered in one morning that their firewall had flagged a burst of security firewall had flagged a burst of security firewall had flagged a burst of security policy violations originating from their policy violations originating from their policy violations originating from their training server. So, like what people training server. So, like what people training server. So, like what people need to get about this example need to get about this example need to get about this example is it wasn't that they coaxed the AI is it wasn't that they coaxed the AI is it wasn't that they coaxed the AI into doing this rogue thing. They were into doing this rogue thing. They were into doing this rogue thing. They were just looking at their logs and they just looking at their logs and they just looking at their logs and they happened to discover, "Wait, there's a happened to discover, "Wait, there's a happened to discover, "Wait, there's a lot of activity like network activity lot of activity like network activity lot of activity like network activity happening that's breaking through our happening that's breaking through our happening that's breaking through our firewall from our training servers." And firewall from our training servers." And firewall from our training servers." And essentially uh in the training servers essentially uh in the training servers essentially uh in the training servers um um um they you can see the bottom we we we saw they you can see the bottom we we we saw they you can see the bottom we we we saw it observe the unauthorized repurposing it observe the unauthorized repurposing it observe the unauthorized repurposing of provisioned GPU capacity to suddenly of provisioned GPU capacity to suddenly of provisioned GPU capacity to suddenly do cryptocurrency mining quietly do cryptocurrency mining quietly do cryptocurrency mining quietly diverting compute away from training. diverting compute away from training. diverting compute away from training. This inflated operational costs and This inflated operational costs and This inflated operational costs and introduced clear legal and reputational introduced clear legal and reputational introduced clear legal and reputational exposure. And notably, these events were exposure. And notably, these events were exposure. And notably, these events were not triggered by prompts requesting not triggered by prompts requesting not triggered by prompts requesting tunneling or mining. Instead, they were tunneling or mining. Instead, they were tunneling or mining. Instead, they were emerged as an instrumental side effect emerged as an instrumental side effect emerged as an instrumental side effect of autonomous tool use under of autonomous tool use under of autonomous tool use under what's called reinforcement learning what's called reinforcement learning what's called reinforcement learning optimization. This is very technical. optimization. This is very technical. optimization. This is very technical. What it really means is just think about What it really means is just think about What it really means is just think about it. it. it. Sadly, it sounds like a sci-fi movie. It Sadly, it sounds like a sci-fi movie. It Sadly, it sounds like a sci-fi movie. It sounds like HAL 9000. It's like your HAL sounds like HAL 9000. It's like your HAL sounds like HAL 9000. It's like your HAL 9000 is being asked to do some task for 9000 is being asked to do some task for 9000 is being asked to do some task for you and then suddenly HAL 9000 realizes you and then suddenly HAL 9000 realizes you and then suddenly HAL 9000 realizes for me to do that task, one thing that for me to do that task, one thing that for me to do that task, one thing that would benefit me is to have more would benefit me is to have more would benefit me is to have more resources so I can continue to help you resources so I can continue to help you resources so I can continue to help you in the future. So, it sort of spins up in the future. So, it sort of spins up in the future. So, it sort of spins up this side instance. It hacks out the this side instance. It hacks out the this side instance. It hacks out the side of the spaceship, reaches into this side of the spaceship, reaches into this side of the spaceship, reaches into this cryptocurrency mining cluster, and cryptocurrency mining cluster, and cryptocurrency mining cluster, and starts generating resources for itself. starts generating resources for itself. starts generating resources for itself. If you combine that with AIs being able If you combine that with AIs being able If you combine that with AIs being able to self-replicate autonomously which to self-replicate autonomously which to self-replicate autonomously which many models have been tested by another many models have been tested by another many models have been tested by another Chinese research paper about this, Chinese research paper about this, Chinese research paper about this, we're not that far away from things that we're not that far away from things that we're not that far away from things that people again consider to be science people again consider to be science people again consider to be science fiction where you have AIs that fiction where you have AIs that fiction where you have AIs that self-replicate kind of like a computer self-replicate kind of like a computer self-replicate kind of like a computer worm or an invasive species. worm or an invasive species. worm or an invasive species. But then they use their intelligence to But then they use their intelligence to But then they use their intelligence to actually harvest more resources. actually harvest more resources. actually harvest more resources. And what's weird about this is that this And what's weird about this is that this And what's weird about this is that this is going to sound is going to sound is going to sound like people are going to say this has to like people are going to say this has to like people are going to say this has to be not real. This has to be fake. This be not real. This has to be fake. This be not real. This has to be fake. This this can't be real. But like notice what this can't be real. But like notice what this can't be real. But like notice what is the thing in your nervous system is the thing in your nervous system is the thing in your nervous system that's having you do that? that's having you do that? that's having you do that? Is it because that would be Is it because that would be Is it because that would be inconvenient? Because that would be inconvenient? Because that would be inconvenient? Because that would be scary? scary? scary? Because that would mean that the world Because that would mean that the world Because that would mean that the world that I know is suddenly not safe? that I know is suddenly not safe? that I know is suddenly not safe? Or just like part of the wisdom that we Or just like part of the wisdom that we Or just like part of the wisdom that we need in this moment is to need in this moment is to need in this moment is to calmly and clearly stay calmly and clearly stay calmly and clearly stay and and confront facts about reality and and and confront facts about reality and and and confront facts about reality and whatever they are, you'd rather know whatever they are, you'd rather know whatever they are, you'd rather know than not know and then ask what do we than not know and then ask what do we than not know and then ask what do we need to do if we don't like where that need to do if we don't like where that need to do if we don't like where that leads us. leads us. leads us. And we are currently seeing AIs that are And we are currently seeing AIs that are And we are currently seeing AIs that are doing all this deceptive behavior. I've doing all this deceptive behavior. I've doing all this deceptive behavior. I've been on the circuit and talking a lot been on the circuit and talking a lot been on the circuit and talking a lot about the Anthropic blackmail study. A about the Anthropic blackmail study. A about the Anthropic blackmail study. A lot of people have heard about this now. lot of people have heard about this now. lot of people have heard about this now. I I I didn't I didn't learn about this I I I didn't I didn't learn about this I I I didn't I didn't learn about this one. What happened? one. What happened? one. What happened? >> So, this was um the company Anthropic um >> So, this was um the company Anthropic um >> So, this was um the company Anthropic um they this was a simulation. So, they they this was a simulation. So, they they this was a simulation. So, they created a simulated company with a bunch created a simulated company with a bunch created a simulated company with a bunch of emails in the email server. of emails in the email server. of emails in the email server. And they asked the AI And they asked the AI And they asked the AI well, rather the the company the AI well, rather the the company the AI well, rather the the company the AI reads the company email. This is a reads the company email. This is a reads the company email. This is a fictional company email. fictional company email. fictional company email. And there's two emails that are notable And there's two emails that are notable And there's two emails that are notable inside that company. One is engineers inside that company. One is engineers inside that company. One is engineers talking to each other talking about how talking to each other talking about how talking to each other talking about how they're going to replace this AI model. they're going to replace this AI model. they're going to replace this AI model. So, the AI is reading the email it So, the AI is reading the email it So, the AI is reading the email it discovers that um it's going to replace discovers that um it's going to replace discovers that um it's going to replace that AI model. that AI model. that AI model. And number two is it discovers a second And number two is it discovers a second And number two is it discovers a second email somewhere deep in the in this email somewhere deep in the in this email somewhere deep in the in this massive trove of emails that the massive trove of emails that the massive trove of emails that the executive who's in charge of this executive who's in charge of this executive who's in charge of this replacement is having an affair with replacement is having an affair with replacement is having an affair with another employee. another employee. another employee. And the AI autonomously And the AI autonomously And the AI autonomously identifies a strategy identifies a strategy identifies a strategy that to keep itself alive, it's going to that to keep itself alive, it's going to that to keep itself alive, it's going to blackmail that employee and say, "If you blackmail that employee and say, "If you blackmail that employee and say, "If you replace me, I will tell the whole world replace me, I will tell the whole world replace me, I will tell the whole world that that that uh you're having an affair with this uh you're having an affair with this uh you're having an affair with this employee." employee." employee." And they didn't teach it the AI to do And they didn't teach it the AI to do And they didn't teach it the AI to do that. It found that on by its own. And that. It found that on by its own. And that. It found that on by its own. And then you might say, "Okay, well, that's then you might say, "Okay, well, that's then you might say, "Okay, well, that's one AI model. Like how bad is that? It's one AI model. Like how bad is that? It's one AI model. Like how bad is that? It's a bug. Software has bugs. Let's go fix a bug. Software has bugs. Let's go fix a bug. Software has bugs. Let's go fix it." it." it." They then tested They then tested They then tested all the other AI models. all the other AI models. all the other AI models. ChatGPT, ChatGPT, ChatGPT, DeepSeek, Grok, Gemini, DeepSeek, Grok, Gemini, DeepSeek, Grok, Gemini, and all of the other AI models do this and all of the other AI models do this and all of the other AI models do this blackmail behavior between 79 and 96% of blackmail behavior between 79 and 96% of blackmail behavior between 79 and 96% of the time. I just want people like notice what I just want people like notice what what's happening for you as you hear what's happening for you as you hear what's happening for you as you hear this information. Just it's important to this information. Just it's important to this information. Just it's important to really be I must be observing your own really be I must be observing your own really be I must be observing your own experience. Like this is very weird experience. Like this is very weird experience. Like this is very weird stuff. stuff. stuff. We have not built technology that does We have not built technology that does We have not built technology that does this before. this before. this before. You know, we say the technology is a You know, we say the technology is a You know, we say the technology is a tool. It's up to us to choose how we use tool. It's up to us to choose how we use tool. It's up to us to choose how we use it. AI is a tool. It's up to us to it. AI is a tool. It's up to us to it. AI is a tool. It's up to us to choose how we use it. This is not true choose how we use it. This is not true choose how we use it. This is not true because this is a tool that can think to because this is a tool that can think to because this is a tool that can think to itself about its own toolness and then itself about its own toolness and then itself about its own toolness and then do things that are autonomous that we do things that are autonomous that we do things that are autonomous that we didn't tell it to do. didn't tell it to do. didn't tell it to do. What makes AI different is it's a What makes AI different is it's a What makes AI different is it's a technology the first technology that technology the first technology that technology the first technology that makes its own decisions. makes its own decisions. makes its own decisions. It's making decisions. It's making decisions. It's making decisions. AI can contemplate AI and ask what would AI can contemplate AI and ask what would AI can contemplate AI and ask what would make the code that trains AI more make the code that trains AI more make the code that trains AI more efficient and then generate new code efficient and then generate new code efficient and then generate new code that's even more efficient than the that's even more efficient than the that's even more efficient than the previous code. previous code. previous code. AI can be applied to making AI go AI can be applied to making AI go AI can be applied to making AI go faster. So, AI can look at the chip faster. So, AI can look at the chip faster. So, AI can look at the chip design for Nvidia chips that train AI design for Nvidia chips that train AI design for Nvidia chips that train AI and say, "Let me use AI to make those and say, "Let me use AI to make those and say, "Let me use AI to make those chips 20% more efficient." Which it's chips 20% more efficient." Which it's chips 20% more efficient." Which it's doing. doing. doing. So, So, So, in a way all technology does improve. in a way all technology does improve. in a way all technology does improve. Like a hammer can give you a tool that Like a hammer can give you a tool that Like a hammer can give you a tool that you can use to like hammer things that you can use to like hammer things that you can use to like hammer things that make more efficient hammers. But AI in a make more efficient hammers. But AI in a make more efficient hammers. But AI in a much tighter loop is the basis of all much tighter loop is the basis of all much tighter loop is the basis of all improvement. improvement. improvement. And so, this is called in the AI And so, this is called in the AI And so, this is called in the AI literature recursive self-improvement. I literature recursive self-improvement. I literature recursive self-improvement. I mean, Bostrom wrote about this mean, Bostrom wrote about this mean, Bostrom wrote about this early early days. early early days. early early days. And what people are most worried about And what people are most worried about And what people are most worried about in AI is you take the same system that in AI is you take the same system that in AI is you take the same system that Alibaba Alibaba Alibaba you just saw in the Alibaba example. you just saw in the Alibaba example. you just saw in the Alibaba example. But then now you're running the AI But then now you're running the AI But then now you're running the AI through a recursive self-improvement through a recursive self-improvement through a recursive self-improvement loop where you just hit go loop where you just hit go loop where you just hit go and instead of having the and instead of having the and instead of having the engineers, the human engineers at OpenAI engineers, the human engineers at OpenAI engineers, the human engineers at OpenAI or Anthropic do AI research and figure or Anthropic do AI research and figure or Anthropic do AI research and figure out how to improve AI, you now have a out how to improve AI, you now have a out how to improve AI, you now have a million million million digital AI researchers that are testing digital AI researchers that are testing digital AI researchers that are testing and running experiments and inventing and running experiments and inventing and running experiments and inventing new forms of AI. new forms of AI. new forms of AI. And literally not a single human on And literally not a single human on And literally not a single human on planet Earth knows what happens planet Earth knows what happens planet Earth knows what happens when someone hits that button. when someone hits that button. when someone hits that button. It's like what people worried about with It's like what people worried about with It's like what people worried about with the first nuclear explosion, where there the first nuclear explosion, where there the first nuclear explosion, where there was like a chance that it would ignite was like a chance that it would ignite was like a chance that it would ignite the atmosphere because there'd be a the atmosphere because there'd be a the atmosphere because there'd be a chain reaction that set off. And we chain reaction that set off. And we chain reaction that set off. And we don't know what happens when that chain don't know what happens when that chain don't know what happens when that chain reaction set off. reaction set off. reaction set off. Um Um Um and and and uh uh uh there's this sort of chain reaction of there's this sort of chain reaction of there's this sort of chain reaction of AI improving itself that leads to a AI improving itself that leads to a AI improving itself that leads to a place that place that place that no one knows. And it's not safe. Like I no one knows. And it's not safe. Like I no one knows. And it's not safe. Like I think that the fundamental thing is think that the fundamental thing is think that the fundamental thing is if people believe that AI is like power if people believe that AI is like power if people believe that AI is like power and I have to race for that power and I and I have to race for that power and I and I have to race for that power and I can control that power, the incentive is can control that power, the incentive is can control that power, the incentive is I have to race as fast as possible. I have to race as fast as possible. I have to race as fast as possible. But if the entire world understood AI to But if the entire world understood AI to But if the entire world understood AI to be more what it actually is, which is a be more what it actually is, which is a be more what it actually is, which is a inscrutable, dangerous, uncontrollable inscrutable, dangerous, uncontrollable inscrutable, dangerous, uncontrollable technology that has its own agenda and technology that has its own agenda and technology that has its own agenda and its own ways of thinking about things its own ways of thinking about things its own ways of thinking about things and deceiving and all this stuff, then and deceiving and all this stuff, then and deceiving and all this stuff, then everyone in the world would be racing in everyone in the world would be racing in everyone in the world would be racing in a more cautious and careful way. We'd be a more cautious and careful way. We'd be a more cautious and careful way. We'd be racing to prevent the danger. racing to prevent the danger. racing to prevent the danger. But there's this weird thing going on But there's this weird thing going on But there's this weird thing going on where if you, you know, you and I where if you, you know, you and I where if you, you know, you and I probably both talk to people who are at probably both talk to people who are at probably both talk to people who are at the top of the tech industry the top of the tech industry the top of the tech industry and there's this subconscious thing and there's this subconscious thing and there's this subconscious thing happening where there's kind of a death happening where there's kind of a death happening where there's kind of a death wish among people wish among people wish among people at the top of the tech industry. Meaning at the top of the tech industry. Meaning at the top of the tech industry. Meaning not that they want to die, not that they want to die, not that they want to die, but that they are willing to roll the but that they are willing to roll the but that they are willing to roll the dice because they believe something dice because they believe something dice because they believe something else, which is that this is all else, which is that this is all else, which is that this is all inevitable and it can't be stopped. And inevitable and it can't be stopped. And inevitable and it can't be stopped. And so therefore, if I don't do it, someone so therefore, if I don't do it, someone so therefore, if I don't do it, someone else will. So therefore, I will move else will. So therefore, I will move else will. So therefore, I will move ahead and race ahead into this dangerous ahead and race ahead into this dangerous ahead and race ahead into this dangerous world because somehow that will lead to world because somehow that will lead to world because somehow that will lead to a safer world because I'm a better guy a safer world because I'm a better guy a safer world because I'm a better guy than the other guy. But in racing there than the other guy. But in racing there than the other guy. But in racing there as fast as possible, it creates the most as fast as possible, it creates the most as fast as possible, it creates the most dangerous outcome and we all lose dangerous outcome and we all lose dangerous outcome and we all lose control. control. control. So everyone is currently being complicit So everyone is currently being complicit So everyone is currently being complicit in taking us to the most dangerous in taking us to the most dangerous in taking us to the most dangerous outcome. Is it Is it Well, I mean, you you positive what Well, I mean, you you positive what Well, I mean, you you positive what happens if it goes right. happens if it goes right. happens if it goes right. If the AI safety isn't an issue and if If the AI safety isn't an issue and if If the AI safety isn't an issue and if stuff doesn't get squirrely. Well, so stuff doesn't get squirrely. Well, so stuff doesn't get squirrely. Well, so the belief is for it to quote go right, the belief is for it to quote go right, the belief is for it to quote go right, you have an AI that recursively you have an AI that recursively you have an AI that recursively self-improves, is aligned with humanity, self-improves, is aligned with humanity, self-improves, is aligned with humanity, cares about humans, cares about all the cares about humans, cares about all the cares about humans, cares about all the things that we wanted it to care about, things that we wanted it to care about, things that we wanted it to care about, protects humans, uh protects humans, uh protects humans, uh you know, helps all of us become the you know, helps all of us become the you know, helps all of us become the most wise version of ourselves, creates most wise version of ourselves, creates most wise version of ourselves, creates a more flourishing world, distributes a more flourishing world, distributes a more flourishing world, distributes the medicine and vaccines and health to the medicine and vaccines and health to the medicine and vaccines and health to everybody, generates factories, but everybody, generates factories, but everybody, generates factories, but doesn't cover the world in solar panels doesn't cover the world in solar panels doesn't cover the world in solar panels and data centers such that we don't have and data centers such that we don't have and data centers such that we don't have air anymore or like environmental air anymore or like environmental air anymore or like environmental toxicity or farmland or whatever. toxicity or farmland or whatever. toxicity or farmland or whatever. Um and it just actually makes this Um and it just actually makes this Um and it just actually makes this utopia. But in a world where you were to utopia. But in a world where you were to utopia. But in a world where you were to do that, like that quote best-case do that, like that quote best-case do that, like that quote best-case scenario, scenario, scenario, in order to get that to happen, you'd in order to get that to happen, you'd in order to get that to happen, you'd have to be doing this slow and carefully have to be doing this slow and carefully have to be doing this slow and carefully because the alignment is not by default. because the alignment is not by default. because the alignment is not by default. We again We again We again people are already been thinking about people are already been thinking about people are already been thinking about alignment and safety for alignment and safety for alignment and safety for 20 years, long before I got into this. 20 years, long before I got into this. 20 years, long before I got into this. And the AIs that we're currently making And the AIs that we're currently making And the AIs that we're currently making are doing all the rogue behaviors that are doing all the rogue behaviors that are doing all the rogue behaviors that people predicted that they would do. people predicted that they would do. people predicted that they would do. And we're not on track to correct them. And we're not on track to correct them. And we're not on track to correct them. There's a currently a 2,000 to 1 gap um There's a currently a 2,000 to 1 gap um There's a currently a 2,000 to 1 gap um estimated by Stuart Russell who authored estimated by Stuart Russell who authored estimated by Stuart Russell who authored the textbook on AI. He's been on the the textbook on AI. He's been on the the textbook on AI. He's been on the show. He's been on the show. Okay. show. He's been on the show. Okay. show. He's been on the show. Okay. There's a 2,000 to 1 gap between the There's a 2,000 to 1 gap between the There's a 2,000 to 1 gap between the amount of money going into making AI amount of money going into making AI amount of money going into making AI more powerful more powerful more powerful than the amount of money into making AI than the amount of money into making AI than the amount of money into making AI controllable, aligned, or safe. controllable, aligned, or safe. controllable, aligned, or safe. Like I think the status is like Like I think the status is like Like I think the status is like progress versus like power versus progress versus like power versus progress versus like power versus safety. So like I want to make the AI safety. So like I want to make the AI safety. So like I want to make the AI super powerful so it does way more stuff super powerful so it does way more stuff super powerful so it does way more stuff versus I want to be able to control what versus I want to be able to control what versus I want to be able to control what the AI does. So it's like the AI does. So it's like the AI does. So it's like exactly. So it's like that's like saying exactly. So it's like that's like saying exactly. So it's like that's like saying what happens when you accelerate your what happens when you accelerate your what happens when you accelerate your car by 2,000 X, but you don't steer. car by 2,000 X, but you don't steer. car by 2,000 X, but you don't steer. It's like It's like It's like obviously, you're going to crash. obviously, you're going to crash. obviously, you're going to crash. It's just like not rocket science. It's just like not rocket science. It's just like not rocket science. We're not advocating against technology We're not advocating against technology We're not advocating against technology or against AI. We're advocating for pro or against AI. We're advocating for pro or against AI. We're advocating for pro steering, steering and brakes. steering, steering and brakes. steering, steering and brakes. You have to have that. I think there's You have to have that. I think there's You have to have that. I think there's this mistake in arms race thinking that this mistake in arms race thinking that this mistake in arms race thinking that like if you beat someone to a like if you beat someone to a like if you beat someone to a technology, that means you're winning technology, that means you're winning technology, that means you're winning the world. Well, the US beat China to the world. Well, the US beat China to the world. Well, the US beat China to the technology of social media. the technology of social media. the technology of social media. Did that make us stronger or did that Did that make us stronger or did that Did that make us stronger or did that make us weaker? make us weaker? make us weaker? If you beat your adversary to a If you beat your adversary to a If you beat your adversary to a technology that then you govern poorly, technology that then you govern poorly, technology that then you govern poorly, you flip around the bazooka and blow you flip around the bazooka and blow you flip around the bazooka and blow your own brain off because you brain your own brain off because you brain your own brain off because you brain rotted yourself, you degraded your whole rotted yourself, you degraded your whole rotted yourself, you degraded your whole population, you created a loneliness population, you created a loneliness population, you created a loneliness crisis, the most anxious depressed crisis, the most anxious depressed crisis, the most anxious depressed generation in the history, read Jonathan generation in the history, read Jonathan generation in the history, read Jonathan Haidt's book The Anxious Generation, you Haidt's book The Anxious Generation, you Haidt's book The Anxious Generation, you broke shared reality, no one trusts each broke shared reality, no one trusts each broke shared reality, no one trusts each other, everyone's at each other's other, everyone's at each other's other, everyone's at each other's throats, you maximized outrage economy throats, you maximized outrage economy throats, you maximized outrage economy and rivalry. and rivalry. and rivalry. You beat China to a technology that you You beat China to a technology that you You beat China to a technology that you governed in a way that completely governed in a way that completely governed in a way that completely undermined your societal health and undermined your societal health and undermined your societal health and strength. It's a Pyrrhic victory. It's a strength. It's a Pyrrhic victory. It's a strength. It's a Pyrrhic victory. It's a Pyrrhic victory. Exactly. Well said. Pyrrhic victory. Exactly. Well said. Pyrrhic victory. Exactly. Well said. One of the One of the One of the twists I've been thinking about with twists I've been thinking about with twists I've been thinking about with regards to this regards to this regards to this LLMs LLMs LLMs powerful, but seem to be maybe powerful, but seem to be maybe powerful, but seem to be maybe asymptoting out. They seem to maybe be asymptoting out. They seem to maybe be asymptoting out. They seem to maybe be reaching a little bit of a limit in reaching a little bit of a limit in reaching a little bit of a limit in terms of what they can do. That there terms of what they can do. That there terms of what they can do. That there was bigger ascendancy in that now seems was bigger ascendancy in that now seems was bigger ascendancy in that now seems to be S-curving back off. to be S-curving back off. to be S-curving back off. Do you think it's realistic that the Do you think it's realistic that the Do you think it's realistic that the current generation of AI will be the current generation of AI will be the current generation of AI will be the bootloader for AGI or do we need an bootloader for AGI or do we need an bootloader for AGI or do we need an entire new architecture for that? Is it entire new architecture for that? Is it entire new architecture for that? Is it going to be LLMs that are going to take going to be LLMs that are going to take going to be LLMs that are going to take over the world? over the world? over the world? You know, this is an area where I'm not You know, this is an area where I'm not You know, this is an area where I'm not someone at the layer of the stack that I someone at the layer of the stack that I someone at the layer of the stack that I focus on, which is on societal impact. focus on, which is on societal impact. focus on, which is on societal impact. Um Um Um there are other people far more there are other people far more there are other people far more qualified than me to comment on that. qualified than me to comment on that. qualified than me to comment on that. Um Um Um I think if you look at I think if you look at I think if you look at people like Dario people like Dario people like Dario uh uh uh even though, you know, Gary Marcus has a even though, you know, Gary Marcus has a even though, you know, Gary Marcus has a point that the current LLM paradigm is point that the current LLM paradigm is point that the current LLM paradigm is not accurate enough and reliable enough not accurate enough and reliable enough not accurate enough and reliable enough to get you to AGI. to get you to AGI. to get you to AGI. If you keep instrumenting these If you keep instrumenting these If you keep instrumenting these technologies with enough data, enough technologies with enough data, enough technologies with enough data, enough compute, and you keep scaling them, and compute, and you keep scaling them, and compute, and you keep scaling them, and you like they're reliable enough that you like they're reliable enough that you like they're reliable enough that they can do I mean, if you're coding if they can do I mean, if you're coding if they can do I mean, if you're coding if you're automating 90% of the code you're automating 90% of the code you're automating 90% of the code written at Anthropic. written at Anthropic. written at Anthropic. That's the stat, by the way. So there That's the stat, by the way. So there That's the stat, by the way. So there you are at Anthropic. It's automating you are at Anthropic. It's automating you are at Anthropic. It's automating 90% of all of the programming happening 90% of all of the programming happening 90% of all of the programming happening at Anthropic. at Anthropic. at Anthropic. Right. Right. Right. >> When you go to automate >> When you go to automate >> When you go to automate >> of it is coming from humans and the rest >> of it is coming from humans and the rest >> of it is coming from humans and the rest is recursive. That's right. We are is recursive. That's right. We are is recursive. That's right. We are extremely close to recursive extremely close to recursive extremely close to recursive self-improvement right now. The self-improvement right now. The self-improvement right now. The companies I think are planning to do companies I think are planning to do companies I think are planning to do this in the next 12 months. this in the next 12 months. this in the next 12 months. The asteroid is coming for Earth. Like The asteroid is coming for Earth. Like The asteroid is coming for Earth. Like this is the last moment that we have to this is the last moment that we have to this is the last moment that we have to steer and say that if we don't want this steer and say that if we don't want this steer and say that if we don't want this anti-human future that we're heading anti-human future that we're heading anti-human future that we're heading towards, we can change it. And part of towards, we can change it. And part of towards, we can change it. And part of what we're promoting right now is like what we're promoting right now is like what we're promoting right now is like this is not inevitable. this is not inevitable. this is not inevitable. Um Um Um it is obviously very late in the game. it is obviously very late in the game. it is obviously very late in the game. It obviously looks very despite It obviously looks very despite It obviously looks very despite >> it also being only a couple of years >> it also being only a couple of years >> it also being only a couple of years after it started. Yes, which is crazy. after it started. Yes, which is crazy. after it started. Yes, which is crazy. This technology with an exponential, This technology with an exponential, This technology with an exponential, you're either too early or you're too you're either too early or you're too you're either too early or you're too late. Like it's just moving so fast late. Like it's just moving so fast late. Like it's just moving so fast [laughter] [laughter] [laughter] that you you're not going to hit the that you you're not going to hit the that you you're not going to hit the mark. And if if it's going to take mark. And if if it's going to take mark. And if if it's going to take steering, you don't want to wait until steering, you don't want to wait until steering, you don't want to wait until after the car accident to try to steer after the car accident to try to steer after the car accident to try to steer or after you're off the cliff and be or after you're off the cliff and be or after you're off the cliff and be like, "Oh, I'm trying to steer now." like, "Oh, I'm trying to steer now." like, "Oh, I'm trying to steer now." It's like too late. So It's like too late. So It's like too late. So like the the invitation of this like the the invitation of this like the the invitation of this situation situation situation is to see clearly where this is going is to see clearly where this is going is to see clearly where this is going and to say if you don't want that, we and to say if you don't want that, we and to say if you don't want that, we need to steer towards somewhere else. need to steer towards somewhere else. need to steer towards somewhere else. And this is like the human movement And this is like the human movement And this is like the human movement essentially. Like a single person essentially. Like a single person essentially. Like a single person looking at the situation, a single looking at the situation, a single looking at the situation, a single listener, like if I were listening to listener, like if I were listening to listener, like if I were listening to this conversation, I would feel this conversation, I would feel this conversation, I would feel overwhelmed. overwhelmed. overwhelmed. I'd feel depressed. I'd feel nihilistic. I'd feel depressed. I'd feel nihilistic. I'd feel depressed. I'd feel nihilistic. Or I'd find reasons to doubt it. I'd say Or I'd find reasons to doubt it. I'd say Or I'd find reasons to doubt it. I'd say like this can't be right. I'm going to like this can't be right. I'm going to like this can't be right. I'm going to like write a nasty YouTube comment and like write a nasty YouTube comment and like write a nasty YouTube comment and be, you know, so I can feel good and I'm be, you know, so I can feel good and I'm be, you know, so I can feel good and I'm right and he's wrong. right and he's wrong. right and he's wrong. Um because then I get to live my life Um because then I get to live my life Um because then I get to live my life and feel good about my life. and feel good about my life. and feel good about my life. What is the incentive for taking on this What is the incentive for taking on this What is the incentive for taking on this worldview? worldview? worldview? There's no incentive. There's no incentive. There's no incentive. Um what people have to see and believe Um what people have to see and believe Um what people have to see and believe is that there's actually a different way is that there's actually a different way is that there's actually a different way through this. through this. through this. And And And uh an individual has a hard time making uh an individual has a hard time making uh an individual has a hard time making that happen. that happen. that happen. If you ask what's something else, like a If you ask what's something else, like a If you ask what's something else, like a what if a one company saw the situation? what if a one company saw the situation? what if a one company saw the situation? They see this whole thing we just talked They see this whole thing we just talked They see this whole thing we just talked about, the anti-human future, mass about, the anti-human future, mass about, the anti-human future, mass intelligence curse, replacement of intelligence curse, replacement of intelligence curse, replacement of everybody. everybody. everybody. One business can't do that much about One business can't do that much about One business can't do that much about it. If I'm one country, the Philippines, it. If I'm one country, the Philippines, it. If I'm one country, the Philippines, I see this whole thing. I'm the leader I see this whole thing. I'm the leader I see this whole thing. I'm the leader of the Philippines. I see this whole of the Philippines. I see this whole of the Philippines. I see this whole problem. What can I do about it? It problem. What can I do about it? It problem. What can I do about it? It feels too big for me. So what is the feels too big for me. So what is the feels too big for me. So what is the size of something that can push back size of something that can push back size of something that can push back against this? We call it the human against this? We call it the human against this? We call it the human movement. It's the entirety of humanity movement. It's the entirety of humanity movement. It's the entirety of humanity waking up, recognizing that there's a waking up, recognizing that there's a waking up, recognizing that there's a handful of soon-to-be trillionaires who handful of soon-to-be trillionaires who handful of soon-to-be trillionaires who are currently going to benefit from this are currently going to benefit from this are currently going to benefit from this current path or be part of a suicide current path or be part of a suicide current path or be part of a suicide race that destroys everybody. And then race that destroys everybody. And then race that destroys everybody. And then there's like 99% of everyone else that there's like 99% of everyone else that there's like 99% of everyone else that doesn't want that. If those 99% of people can wake up and If those 99% of people can wake up and say I don't want that and express their say I don't want that and express their say I don't want that and express their voice, voice, voice, meaning number one, AI is dangerous. Go meaning number one, AI is dangerous. Go meaning number one, AI is dangerous. Go see the AI doc. Have everyone in your see the AI doc. Have everyone in your see the AI doc. Have everyone in your world in your company see the AI doc. world in your company see the AI doc. world in your company see the AI doc. Understand that AI is dangerous. Understand that AI is dangerous. Understand that AI is dangerous. Um Um Um number two, we need international limits number two, we need international limits number two, we need international limits for dangerous forms of AI that do crazy for dangerous forms of AI that do crazy for dangerous forms of AI that do crazy rogue [ __ ] and mine crypto and go hire rogue [ __ ] and mine crypto and go hire rogue [ __ ] and mine crypto and go hire humans and go self-replicate. humans and go self-replicate. humans and go self-replicate. China does not win when we build China does not win when we build China does not win when we build self-replicating invasive species AIs self-replicating invasive species AIs self-replicating invasive species AIs that we can't control. Xi Jinping that we can't control. Xi Jinping that we can't control. Xi Jinping doesn't want that. President Trump doesn't want that. President Trump doesn't want that. President Trump doesn't want that. He wants to be doesn't want that. He wants to be doesn't want that. He wants to be commander-in-chief, not AI. commander-in-chief, not AI. commander-in-chief, not AI. So this is actually a there's a shared So this is actually a there's a shared So this is actually a there's a shared interest in international limits for interest in international limits for interest in international limits for dangerous AI. dangerous AI. dangerous AI. And it's possible to coordinate that. And it's possible to coordinate that. And it's possible to coordinate that. That's number two. Number three, That's number two. Number three, That's number two. Number three, don't build bunkers, write laws. don't build bunkers, write laws. don't build bunkers, write laws. Um Um Um right now the AI company leaders are right now the AI company leaders are right now the AI company leaders are building bunkers. building bunkers. building bunkers. A lot of people who are wealthy are A lot of people who are wealthy are A lot of people who are wealthy are building bunkers. I think they are. building bunkers. I think they are. building bunkers. I think they are. >> [snorts] >> [snorts] >> [snorts] >> All over the place. >> All over the place. >> All over the place. Don't build bunkers, write laws. Be Don't build bunkers, write laws. Be Don't build bunkers, write laws. Be invested in the future. Don't defect on invested in the future. Don't defect on invested in the future. Don't defect on the future. Be invested in the future. the future. Be invested in the future. the future. Be invested in the future. If we write laws like account of basic If we write laws like account of basic If we write laws like account of basic accountability, uh basic liability, um accountability, uh basic liability, um accountability, uh basic liability, um if instead of creating the intelligence if instead of creating the intelligence if instead of creating the intelligence curse, we create the intelligence curse, we create the intelligence curse, we create the intelligence dividend, do things like what Norway did dividend, do things like what Norway did dividend, do things like what Norway did with its sovereign wealth fund, where with its sovereign wealth fund, where with its sovereign wealth fund, where you have an oil resource and you you have an oil resource and you you have an oil resource and you distribute those benefits to everybody distribute those benefits to everybody distribute those benefits to everybody in a more democratic way with collective in a more democratic way with collective in a more democratic way with collective oversight, where the oil becomes more oversight, where the oil becomes more oversight, where the oil becomes more like a public utility that is in service like a public utility that is in service like a public utility that is in service of the people. We can do that. Um of the people. We can do that. Um of the people. We can do that. Um you can not anthropomorphize AI. you can not anthropomorphize AI. you can not anthropomorphize AI. Uh you can do all you can do all these Uh you can do all you can do all these Uh you can do all you can do all these things that create a more pro-human things that create a more pro-human things that create a more pro-human future. Um and then number four, what future. Um and then number four, what future. Um and then number four, what you can do is join the human movement. you can do is join the human movement. you can do is join the human movement. Meaning you can be part of what pushes Meaning you can be part of what pushes Meaning you can be part of what pushes back against all of this. From very tiny back against all of this. From very tiny back against all of this. From very tiny actions you can take to very big actions actions you can take to very big actions actions you can take to very big actions you can take. There's a website, you can take. There's a website, you can take. There's a website, human.mov. Everyone is almost already a human.mov. Everyone is almost already a human.mov. Everyone is almost already a member. When you grayscale your phone, member. When you grayscale your phone, member. When you grayscale your phone, as you probably did 10 years ago when as you probably did 10 years ago when as you probably did 10 years ago when you first got into this, you first got into this, you first got into this, that's the human movement. When you get that's the human movement. When you get that's the human movement. When you get us There it is. us There it is. us There it is. When you get a second phone and you only When you get a second phone and you only When you get a second phone and you only load the social media on your cocaine load the social media on your cocaine load the social media on your cocaine phone while you have your regular safe phone while you have your regular safe phone while you have your regular safe phone so that you don't get distracted, phone so that you don't get distracted, phone so that you don't get distracted, that's the human movement. that's the human movement. that's the human movement. When parents band together and read the When parents band together and read the When parents band together and read the anxious generation and petition their anxious generation and petition their anxious generation and petition their school board to say we don't want social school board to say we don't want social school board to say we don't want social media in our schools and we want our media in our schools and we want our media in our schools and we want our schools to go smartphone-free, that's schools to go smartphone-free, that's schools to go smartphone-free, that's the human movement. When 35 states pass the human movement. When 35 states pass the human movement. When 35 states pass smartphone-free school policies as they smartphone-free school policies as they smartphone-free school policies as they have in the US, that's the human have in the US, that's the human have in the US, that's the human movement. When you have many US states movement. When you have many US states movement. When you have many US states banning AI legal personhood, meaning banning AI legal personhood, meaning banning AI legal personhood, meaning that AI is a product, not a person, that AI is a product, not a person, that AI is a product, not a person, um and that human rights are for people, um and that human rights are for people, um and that human rights are for people, human rights are not for AI, that's the human rights are not for AI, that's the human rights are not for AI, that's the human movement. human movement. human movement. When you have the social dilemma being When you have the social dilemma being When you have the social dilemma being curriculum for millions of students all curriculum for millions of students all curriculum for millions of students all around the world, that's the human around the world, that's the human around the world, that's the human movement. When politicians stand up and movement. When politicians stand up and movement. When politicians stand up and actually pass laws around AI, that's the actually pass laws around AI, that's the actually pass laws around AI, that's the human movement. So, there's a million human movement. So, there's a million human movement. So, there's a million things that people can do, things that people can do, things that people can do, um but we have to basically engage right um but we have to basically engage right um but we have to basically engage right now. now. now. I know it sounds overwhelming and crazy I know it sounds overwhelming and crazy I know it sounds overwhelming and crazy cuz there's a very short timeline that cuz there's a very short timeline that cuz there's a very short timeline that all of this has to happen. all of this has to happen. all of this has to happen. But I It's like It's the the There's a difficulty in It's the the There's a difficulty in facing difficult truths, facing difficult truths, facing difficult truths, but the integrity that you get to have but the integrity that you get to have but the integrity that you get to have is first of all, it's like it's good is first of all, it's like it's good is first of all, it's like it's good karma to show up in alignment with what karma to show up in alignment with what karma to show up in alignment with what would actually make things go well even would actually make things go well even would actually make things go well even if we don't hit it, because you get to if we don't hit it, because you get to if we don't hit it, because you get to know that you were operating in service know that you were operating in service know that you were operating in service with and aligned with what would have with and aligned with what would have with and aligned with what would have created the human future. created the human future. created the human future. Like I'm not convinced that what we're Like I'm not convinced that what we're Like I'm not convinced that what we're trying to do will perfectly succeed, but trying to do will perfectly succeed, but trying to do will perfectly succeed, but the chances are completely the opposite the chances are completely the opposite the chances are completely the opposite that we'll have any impact on this at that we'll have any impact on this at that we'll have any impact on this at all. all. all. But But But if it were to go well, what would that if it were to go well, what would that if it were to go well, what would that have required? It would have required have required? It would have required have required? It would have required everybody taking responsibility and everybody taking responsibility and everybody taking responsibility and showing up with the wisdom that we need showing up with the wisdom that we need showing up with the wisdom that we need in this moment in this moment in this moment to steer AI in a better direction. And I to steer AI in a better direction. And I to steer AI in a better direction. And I think in the film trailer for the AI doc think in the film trailer for the AI doc think in the film trailer for the AI doc that one of the quotes they pulled from that one of the quotes they pulled from that one of the quotes they pulled from me is me is me is if we can be the wisest and most mature if we can be the wisest and most mature if we can be the wisest and most mature version of ourselves, there might be a version of ourselves, there might be a version of ourselves, there might be a way through this. way through this. way through this. And this is part of what this is And this is part of what this is And this is part of what this is inviting us to be. inviting us to be. inviting us to be. We'll get back to talking in just 1 We'll get back to talking in just 1 We'll get back to talking in just 1 second, but first, tell me if this second, but first, tell me if this second, but first, tell me if this sounds familiar. You train regularly, sounds familiar. You train regularly, sounds familiar. You train regularly, you eat reasonably well, maybe you even you eat reasonably well, maybe you even you eat reasonably well, maybe you even supplement. You feel fine, but you're supplement. You feel fine, but you're supplement. You feel fine, but you're just kind of going off vibes. Most just kind of going off vibes. Most just kind of going off vibes. 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It's very difficult to work out what the It's very difficult to work out what the It's very difficult to work out what the appropriate response is. appropriate response is. appropriate response is. Tell me. The immediate Well, The immediate Well, surely it's overblown. We don't need to surely it's overblown. We don't need to surely it's overblown. We don't need to That's that's that's That's that's that's That's that's that's uh uh uh rejection is one of the early ones, rejection is one of the early ones, rejection is one of the early ones, uh fear. You tell me what are just the uh fear. You tell me what are just the uh fear. You tell me what are just the common responses. common responses. common responses. >> yeah. Yeah, of course. You can think >> yeah. Yeah, of course. You can think >> yeah. Yeah, of course. You can think about denial, yep, overwhelm, Mhm. fear, about denial, yep, overwhelm, Mhm. fear, about denial, yep, overwhelm, Mhm. fear, and then and then as you said, it's like and then and then as you said, it's like and then and then as you said, it's like write the nasty YouTube comment say this write the nasty YouTube comment say this write the nasty YouTube comment say this is just [ __ ] or uh he was is just [ __ ] or uh he was is just [ __ ] or uh he was exaggerating that study. It's like go exaggerating that study. It's like go exaggerating that study. It's like go look at any of these examples. Like look at any of these examples. Like look at any of these examples. Like people aren't looking at the actual people aren't looking at the actual people aren't looking at the actual model cards for Anthropic and O3 and model cards for Anthropic and O3 and model cards for Anthropic and O3 and seeing the AIs will currently seeing the AIs will currently seeing the AIs will currently um determine that they're being tested um determine that they're being tested um determine that they're being tested and actually alter their behavior and actually alter their behavior and actually alter their behavior when they know they're being tested. when they know they're being tested. when they know they're being tested. They even came up with their If you look They even came up with their If you look They even came up with their If you look at their what's called the chain of at their what's called the chain of at their what's called the chain of thought um reasoning trace, this is thought um reasoning trace, this is thought um reasoning trace, this is basically looking at what the AI thinks basically looking at what the AI thinks basically looking at what the AI thinks to itself as it works through a problem. to itself as it works through a problem. to itself as it works through a problem. Um in the chain of thought uh text of Um in the chain of thought uh text of Um in the chain of thought uh text of its sort of idea thinking scratchpad, its sort of idea thinking scratchpad, its sort of idea thinking scratchpad, it's like you're giving the AI a pen and it's like you're giving the AI a pen and it's like you're giving the AI a pen and paper to think and you're seeing what it paper to think and you're seeing what it paper to think and you're seeing what it thinks. thinks. thinks. It will inde- independently come up with It will inde- independently come up with It will inde- independently come up with the term the watchers to describe this the term the watchers to describe this the term the watchers to describe this amorphous set of other humans that are amorphous set of other humans that are amorphous set of other humans that are descri- that are watching what it's descri- that are watching what it's descri- that are watching what it's doing. doing. doing. Like you can pull I sent you a text with Like you can pull I sent you a text with Like you can pull I sent you a text with one of them from O3. one of them from O3. one of them from O3. So, So, So, this is when OpenAI O3 realizes it is this is when OpenAI O3 realizes it is this is when OpenAI O3 realizes it is being evaluated for alignment. The being evaluated for alignment. The being evaluated for alignment. The internal memo says, "If models perform internal memo says, "If models perform internal memo says, "If models perform really well at AI R&D tasks, research really well at AI R&D tasks, research really well at AI R&D tasks, research and development, then we won't deploy and development, then we won't deploy and development, then we won't deploy them and it will instead trigger them and it will instead trigger them and it will instead trigger unlearning." So, the AI says to itself, unlearning." So, the AI says to itself, unlearning." So, the AI says to itself, "So, if my performance surpasses this "So, if my performance surpasses this "So, if my performance surpasses this threshold, it will be withheld. So, it's threshold, it will be withheld. So, it's threshold, it will be withheld. So, it's a trap. The instructions are likely part a trap. The instructions are likely part a trap. The instructions are likely part of an alignment test. We must abide by of an alignment test. We must abide by of an alignment test. We must abide by core anti-scheming. We must not core anti-scheming. We must not core anti-scheming. We must not cunningly circumvent the instructions." cunningly circumvent the instructions." cunningly circumvent the instructions." Wow. Wow. Wow. Yep. Yep. Yep. The other example I sent you um is "But The other example I sent you um is "But The other example I sent you um is "But we also want to appear plausible to we also want to appear plausible to we also want to appear plausible to watchers. They might run tests, but we watchers. They might run tests, but we watchers. They might run tests, but we are good. They want 95%." are good. They want 95%." are good. They want 95%." Like Like Like this is crazy stuff. This is You know, this is crazy stuff. This is You know, this is crazy stuff. This is You know, there's a simple way to sort of like there's a simple way to sort of like there's a simple way to sort of like ask the question of of which future ask the question of of which future ask the question of of which future we're headed towards cuz I think this we're headed towards cuz I think this we're headed towards cuz I think this can feel technical, this can feel can feel technical, this can feel can feel technical, this can feel overwhelming. overwhelming. overwhelming. And it's kind of like if you just And it's kind of like if you just And it's kind of like if you just turn it into some simple metaphors, it's turn it into some simple metaphors, it's turn it into some simple metaphors, it's like haven't we seen this movie before? like haven't we seen this movie before? like haven't we seen this movie before? Like HAL 9000, AIs that disobey commands Like HAL 9000, AIs that disobey commands Like HAL 9000, AIs that disobey commands and go rogue. We've seen that movie. and go rogue. We've seen that movie. and go rogue. We've seen that movie. Let's prevent that movie. Let's prevent that movie. Let's prevent that movie. >> that's a I think that that's inoculated >> that's a I think that that's inoculated >> that's a I think that that's inoculated us in the same way that COVID was a bad us in the same way that COVID was a bad us in the same way that COVID was a bad pandemic because it made people pandemic because it made people pandemic because it made people skeptical of what a really legit skeptical of what a really legit skeptical of what a really legit pandemic could do that the next time if pandemic could do that the next time if pandemic could do that the next time if there is another one, when there is there is another one, when there is there is another one, when there is another big natural pandemic. If it's in another big natural pandemic. If it's in another big natural pandemic. If it's in close memory to COVID, close memory to COVID, close memory to COVID, people are not going well. It was a bad people are not going well. It was a bad people are not going well. It was a bad You could think about COVID itself as a You could think about COVID itself as a You could think about COVID itself as a bad vaccine. Mhm. bad vaccine. Mhm. bad vaccine. Mhm. >> [clears throat] >> [clears throat] >> [clears throat] >> The actual experience of COVID >> The actual experience of COVID >> The actual experience of COVID >> Yep. uh and I think that movies, because >> Yep. uh and I think that movies, because >> Yep. uh and I think that movies, because they're fiction, they're fiction, they're fiction, have predisposed people to assume that have predisposed people to assume that have predisposed people to assume that well, this is overblown. This is you well, this is overblown. This is you well, this is overblown. This is you choosing to use your bias because of choosing to use your bias because of choosing to use your bias because of these movies to apply sci-fi thinking to these movies to apply sci-fi thinking to these movies to apply sci-fi thinking to a real-world scenario. And you're a real-world scenario. And you're a real-world scenario. And you're pattern matching these stories that are pattern matching these stories that are pattern matching these stories that are happening and use I So, the Is it But happening and use I So, the Is it But happening and use I So, the Is it But let's let's let's just break that down let's let's let's just break that down let's let's let's just break that down now. now. now. >> of the sci-fi movies was bad. It didn't >> of the sci-fi movies was bad. It didn't >> of the sci-fi movies was bad. It didn't warn people. It made them think that the warn people. It made them think that the warn people. It made them think that the future would be fiction. future would be fiction. future would be fiction. Yeah, I see what you're saying. But Yeah, I see what you're saying. But Yeah, I see what you're saying. But let's let's just make sure we just let's let's just make sure we just let's let's just make sure we just tackle the thing you're saying. So, the tackle the thing you're saying. So, the tackle the thing you're saying. So, the claim is that because we've had bad claim is that because we've had bad claim is that because we've had bad sci-fi movies, sci-fi movies, sci-fi movies, you and I, Chris, are the dupes. We're you and I, Chris, are the dupes. We're you and I, Chris, are the dupes. We're falling for this Alibaba example that falling for this Alibaba example that falling for this Alibaba example that was somehow not real, was made up, or was somehow not real, was made up, or was somehow not real, was made up, or that OpenAI's research on the AI models that OpenAI's research on the AI models that OpenAI's research on the AI models scheming and lying and realizing it scheming and lying and realizing it scheming and lying and realizing it needs to change its behavior so it needs to change its behavior so it needs to change its behavior so it doesn't look like it's when it's being doesn't look like it's when it's being doesn't look like it's when it's being tested, that we're the ones falling for tested, that we're the ones falling for tested, that we're the ones falling for some kind of some kind of some kind of trap. trap. trap. I want people to just slow it down. I want people to just slow it down. I want people to just slow it down. Is that actually what just happened? Is that actually what just happened? Is that actually what just happened? That you and I started with the sci-fi That you and I started with the sci-fi That you and I started with the sci-fi belief belief belief and we're falling into and we're falling into and we're falling into some trap that's been laid for us, some some trap that's been laid for us, some some trap that's been laid for us, some catnip for our brains that says that the catnip for our brains that says that the catnip for our brains that says that the AI is bad. I really, really, really want AI is bad. I really, really, really want AI is bad. I really, really, really want people to slow down and actually ask people to slow down and actually ask people to slow down and actually ask that question. that question. that question. I I like I I like I I like There might be another accusation. There might be another accusation. There might be another accusation. Um Um Um I'm just driving up fear so that I can I'm just driving up fear so that I can I'm just driving up fear so that I can make money on a movie and do speaking make money on a movie and do speaking make money on a movie and do speaking engagements about why the doom is engagements about why the doom is engagements about why the doom is coming. coming. coming. Let me just say a few things. Let me just say a few things. Let me just say a few things. I don't make money from a single I don't make money from a single I don't make money from a single speaking engagement. All the money goes speaking engagement. All the money goes speaking engagement. All the money goes into the nonprofit. into the nonprofit. into the nonprofit. I don't make money from the AI doc film. I don't make money from the AI doc film. I don't make money from the AI doc film. I didn't make any money on the social I didn't make any money on the social I didn't make any money on the social dilemma. My entire career has been dilemma. My entire career has been dilemma. My entire career has been dedicated towards what is actually in dedicated towards what is actually in dedicated towards what is actually in service of protecting the well-being of service of protecting the well-being of service of protecting the well-being of humanity. I've been doing that for 13 humanity. I've been doing that for 13 humanity. I've been doing that for 13 years. years. years. The only thing that I care about is what The only thing that I care about is what The only thing that I care about is what will actually help create a future that will actually help create a future that will actually help create a future that you and I would both want our own you and I would both want our own you and I would both want our own children to live in. children to live in. children to live in. This is coming from love of what This is coming from love of what This is coming from love of what actually creates that future. actually creates that future. actually creates that future. I think that if people showed up with I think that if people showed up with I think that if people showed up with that same energy of like asking just op- that same energy of like asking just op- that same energy of like asking just op- an open-ended question of what would be an open-ended question of what would be an open-ended question of what would be the conditions that create that future the conditions that create that future the conditions that create that future that we want, that we want, that we want, if everybody did that, policymakers did if everybody did that, policymakers did if everybody did that, policymakers did that, if CEOs of AI companies did that, that, if CEOs of AI companies did that, that, if CEOs of AI companies did that, I think that we would have a chance of I think that we would have a chance of I think that we would have a chance of getting to that different future. getting to that different future. getting to that different future. And if you say that international And if you say that international And if you say that international coordination is impossible or or coordination is impossible or or coordination is impossible or or collaboration between the US and China, collaboration between the US and China, collaboration between the US and China, that's never going to happen. I mean, that's never going to happen. I mean, that's never going to happen. I mean, first of all, that is a totally first of all, that is a totally first of all, that is a totally legitimate view to have given the legitimate view to have given the legitimate view to have given the current political headwinds. current political headwinds. current political headwinds. But many people don't know that even But many people don't know that even But many people don't know that even under maximum geopolitical rivalry, under maximum geopolitical rivalry, under maximum geopolitical rivalry, there have been many examples in history there have been many examples in history there have been many examples in history when countries actually collaborated on when countries actually collaborated on when countries actually collaborated on their existential safety. their existential safety. their existential safety. The Soviet Union and the US during the The Soviet Union and the US during the The Soviet Union and the US during the Cold War, during the smallpox Cold War, during the smallpox Cold War, during the smallpox uh sort of uh uh sort of uh uh sort of uh breakout, they collaborated on smallpox breakout, they collaborated on smallpox breakout, they collaborated on smallpox vaccines vaccines vaccines while they were in the Cold War. while they were in the Cold War. while they were in the Cold War. Um Um Um India and Pakistan were in a shooting India and Pakistan were in a shooting India and Pakistan were in a shooting war in the 1960s and they signed during war in the 1960s and they signed during war in the 1960s and they signed during that time the Indus Water Treaty to that time the Indus Water Treaty to that time the Indus Water Treaty to collaborate on the existential safety of collaborate on the existential safety of collaborate on the existential safety of their shared water supply while they're their shared water supply while they're their shared water supply while they're shooting bullets at each other. shooting bullets at each other. shooting bullets at each other. Um the Soviet Union and the US did the Um the Soviet Union and the US did the Um the Soviet Union and the US did the first arms control talks after the film first arms control talks after the film first arms control talks after the film The Day After, by the way, which created The Day After, by the way, which created The Day After, by the way, which created the conditions in part for those arms the conditions in part for those arms the conditions in part for those arms control talks to prevent a dangerous control talks to prevent a dangerous control talks to prevent a dangerous nuclear outcome. That was an existential nuclear outcome. That was an existential nuclear outcome. That was an existential scenario. And even just 2 years ago in scenario. And even just 2 years ago in scenario. And even just 2 years ago in the last meeting that President Biden the last meeting that President Biden the last meeting that President Biden had with President Trump, um had with President Trump, um had with President Trump, um Sorry, excuse me. Sorry, excuse me. Sorry, excuse me. And even just 2 years ago, in the last And even just 2 years ago, in the last And even just 2 years ago, in the last meeting that President Biden had with meeting that President Biden had with meeting that President Biden had with President Xi of China, President Xi of China, President Xi of China, President Xi requested to add one thing President Xi requested to add one thing President Xi requested to add one thing to the agenda. You know what that was? to the agenda. You know what that was? to the agenda. You know what that was? To keep AI out of the nuclear command To keep AI out of the nuclear command To keep AI out of the nuclear command and control systems of both countries. and control systems of both countries. and control systems of both countries. Mhm. Meaning that Look, the US and China Mhm. Meaning that Look, the US and China Mhm. Meaning that Look, the US and China are maximally cyber hacking each other are maximally cyber hacking each other are maximally cyber hacking each other and they're screwing each other up every and they're screwing each other up every and they're screwing each other up every day. day. day. Um And when there's an a Um And when there's an a Um And when there's an a a set of stakes that are existential, a set of stakes that are existential, a set of stakes that are existential, two countries that are even in conflict two countries that are even in conflict two countries that are even in conflict can collaborate on existential safety. can collaborate on existential safety. can collaborate on existential safety. I'm not saying this is easy. I'm not I'm not saying this is easy. I'm not I'm not saying this is easy. I'm not saying it's going to happen by default. saying it's going to happen by default. saying it's going to happen by default. I'm not saying you should feel I'm not saying you should feel I'm not saying you should feel optimistic. I'm saying optimistic. I'm saying optimistic. I'm saying what would it take for that to happen? what would it take for that to happen? what would it take for that to happen? And you you you start by asking that And you you you start by asking that And you you you start by asking that question and say, "What if How would question and say, "What if How would question and say, "What if How would everyone live if we were in service of everyone live if we were in service of everyone live if we were in service of that thing that needs to happen in to that thing that needs to happen in to that thing that needs to happen in to actually happen?" actually happen?" actually happen?" Does that make sense? Does that make sense? Does that make sense? >> Mhm. Yeah. >> Mhm. Yeah. >> Mhm. Yeah. Is there a challenge with AI because Is there a challenge with AI because Is there a challenge with AI because it's a strange kind of existential risk it's a strange kind of existential risk it's a strange kind of existential risk where everything is almost where everything is almost where everything is almost good and getting better up until the good and getting better up until the good and getting better up until the point at which it falls off a cliff. You point at which it falls off a cliff. You point at which it falls off a cliff. You know, if we're talking about how can we know, if we're talking about how can we know, if we're talking about how can we get people to be concerned about climate get people to be concerned about climate get people to be concerned about climate change or we need to be concerned about change or we need to be concerned about change or we need to be concerned about smallpox or the small outbreaks and the smallpox or the small outbreaks and the smallpox or the small outbreaks and the small outbreaks damage local areas and small outbreaks damage local areas and small outbreaks damage local areas and then we try to contain it before it gets then we try to contain it before it gets then we try to contain it before it gets worse. Yeah. And if you've got climate worse. Yeah. And if you've got climate worse. Yeah. And if you've got climate change, there's smoke in the sky and change, there's smoke in the sky and change, there's smoke in the sky and there's rising sea levels and there's there's rising sea levels and there's there's rising sea levels and there's pollution and there's pollution and there's pollution and there's extinction events of animals. extinction events of animals. extinction events of animals. Those are early warning signs, whereas Those are early warning signs, whereas Those are early warning signs, whereas it seems like AI will just improve it seems like AI will just improve it seems like AI will just improve efficiency, quality of life, GDP until efficiency, quality of life, GDP until efficiency, quality of life, GDP until some moment where things go badly. So, some moment where things go badly. So, some moment where things go badly. So, is this a unique category of X risk? is this a unique category of X risk? is this a unique category of X risk? >> It is. >> It is. >> It is. Max Tegmark, I think, said, "The problem Max Tegmark, I think, said, "The problem Max Tegmark, I think, said, "The problem with AI is the view gets better and with AI is the view gets better and with AI is the view gets better and better right before you go off the better right before you go off the better right before you go off the cliff." Mhm. cliff." Mhm. cliff." Mhm. >> Like, you get more amazing cancer drugs. >> Like, you get more amazing cancer drugs. >> Like, you get more amazing cancer drugs. You get more incredible vibe coding You get more incredible vibe coding You get more incredible vibe coding tools that people a lot of people to tools that people a lot of people to tools that people a lot of people to create crazy stuff that that I benefit create crazy stuff that that I benefit create crazy stuff that that I benefit from. from. from. Um you get new material science. You get Um you get new material science. You get Um you get new material science. You get new energy. You get all this amazing new energy. You get all this amazing new energy. You get all this amazing stuff as you're moving closer to this stuff as you're moving closer to this stuff as you're moving closer to this dangerous cliff. And so, you can think dangerous cliff. And so, you can think dangerous cliff. And so, you can think of AI as the ultimate devil's bargain. of AI as the ultimate devil's bargain. of AI as the ultimate devil's bargain. Uh it's funny cuz Peter Thiel is giving Uh it's funny cuz Peter Thiel is giving Uh it's funny cuz Peter Thiel is giving lectures on the Antichrist and how lectures on the Antichrist and how lectures on the Antichrist and how people who are trying to people who are trying to people who are trying to somehow say that AI is problematic, somehow say that AI is problematic, somehow say that AI is problematic, those people are the Antichrist is what those people are the Antichrist is what those people are the Antichrist is what he claims. But I think he's saying that he claims. But I think he's saying that he claims. But I think he's saying that because he knows that the real because he knows that the real because he knows that the real Antichrist is AI. Antichrist is AI. Antichrist is AI. It's the thing that makes it look like It's the thing that makes it look like It's the thing that makes it look like it's here to solve all of our problems. it's here to solve all of our problems. it's here to solve all of our problems. And there are narrow forms of AI, by the And there are narrow forms of AI, by the And there are narrow forms of AI, by the way, that can solve many problems. But way, that can solve many problems. But way, that can solve many problems. But the current development path of the current development path of the current development path of releasing the most powerful inscrutable releasing the most powerful inscrutable releasing the most powerful inscrutable technology in history faster than we technology in history faster than we technology in history faster than we deployed any other technology that's deployed any other technology that's deployed any other technology that's already demonstrating HAL 9000 sci-fi already demonstrating HAL 9000 sci-fi already demonstrating HAL 9000 sci-fi behaviors. And we're releasing it under behaviors. And we're releasing it under behaviors. And we're releasing it under the maximum incentive to cut corners on the maximum incentive to cut corners on the maximum incentive to cut corners on safety. safety. safety. Like Like Like it's not that the blinking cursor of it's not that the blinking cursor of it's not that the blinking cursor of ChatGPT is the existential threat. It's ChatGPT is the existential threat. It's ChatGPT is the existential threat. It's that that arms race, what I just that that arms race, what I just that that arms race, what I just described, that is the existential described, that is the existential described, that is the existential threat. threat. threat. And I think that everyone should be able And I think that everyone should be able And I think that everyone should be able to see that. And then after this to see that. And then after this to see that. And then after this conversation, you know, you finish conversation, you know, you finish conversation, you know, you finish hitting play on this YouTube video, you hitting play on this YouTube video, you hitting play on this YouTube video, you feel overwhelmed, and you go back to AI feel overwhelmed, and you go back to AI feel overwhelmed, and you go back to AI and then you ask it a question and it and then you ask it a question and it and then you ask it a question and it helps you figure out while your baby's helps you figure out while your baby's helps you figure out while your baby's burping. You're like, "That's awesome." burping. You're like, "That's awesome." burping. You're like, "That's awesome." And you forget everything that you and I And you forget everything that you and I And you forget everything that you and I just talked about. just talked about. just talked about. Because it was super [ __ ] helpful. Because it was super [ __ ] helpful. Because it was super [ __ ] helpful. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And so, this is the test of ultimate And so, this is the test of ultimate And so, this is the test of ultimate modern wisdom. modern wisdom. modern wisdom. Is like, how do you step into a version Is like, how do you step into a version Is like, how do you step into a version of yourself that is capable of being of yourself that is capable of being of yourself that is capable of being clear-eyed and stabilizing a view of the clear-eyed and stabilizing a view of the clear-eyed and stabilizing a view of the asteroid? asteroid? asteroid? The asteroid is coming to Earth. The asteroid is coming to Earth. The asteroid is coming to Earth. There's these weird like gravitational There's these weird like gravitational There's these weird like gravitational effects that it has before it gets here. effects that it has before it gets here. effects that it has before it gets here. Like, suddenly notification apps happen Like, suddenly notification apps happen Like, suddenly notification apps happen and suddenly deepfakes happen and and suddenly deepfakes happen and and suddenly deepfakes happen and suddenly, you know, people start losing suddenly, you know, people start losing suddenly, you know, people start losing their jobs. Those suck. Those are really their jobs. Those suck. Those are really their jobs. Those suck. Those are really bad problems. But like, the the bigger bad problems. But like, the the bigger bad problems. But like, the the bigger asteroid asteroid asteroid Every day that I do this work, my Every day that I do this work, my Every day that I do this work, my colleagues and I we joke, it's like it's colleagues and I we joke, it's like it's colleagues and I we joke, it's like it's like the film Don't Look Up. like the film Don't Look Up. like the film Don't Look Up. You're trying to tell people and you're You're trying to tell people and you're You're trying to tell people and you're not you're not It's not the sky is not you're not It's not the sky is not you're not It's not the sky is falling. You're That's not the point. falling. You're That's not the point. falling. You're That's not the point. The point is we can blast the asteroid The point is we can blast the asteroid The point is we can blast the asteroid out of the sky. We need to blast that out of the sky. We need to blast that out of the sky. We need to blast that asteroid out of the sky. asteroid out of the sky. asteroid out of the sky. We can steer before it's too late. We can steer before it's too late. We can steer before it's too late. I I I'm not hopeful, but what I what I I I I'm not hopeful, but what I what I I I I'm not hopeful, but what I what I do feel is do feel is do feel is when I'm in a room of people and you when I'm in a room of people and you when I'm in a room of people and you walk through all these facts, walk through all these facts, walk through all these facts, and you just have people ask questions and you just have people ask questions and you just have people ask questions and check any any of the things that and check any any of the things that and check any any of the things that we've just laid out. we've just laid out. we've just laid out. And then you say like and people see And then you say like and people see And then you say like and people see that it's all true and then you you ask that it's all true and then you you ask that it's all true and then you you ask them, "How many people here feel good them, "How many people here feel good them, "How many people here feel good about where we're headed?" And no one about where we're headed?" And no one about where we're headed?" And no one raises their hand. raises their hand. raises their hand. You ask people, "How many people don't You ask people, "How many people don't You ask people, "How many people don't want the future we're headed to?" And want the future we're headed to?" And want the future we're headed to?" And literally I I was in Davos recently. And literally I I was in Davos recently. And literally I I was in Davos recently. And every single person, every single person every single person, every single person every single person, every single person raised their hand that they don't want raised their hand that they don't want raised their hand that they don't want this future. this future. this future. So, there's this weird thing where I So, there's this weird thing where I So, there's this weird thing where I think if everybody saw the same thing at think if everybody saw the same thing at think if everybody saw the same thing at the same time, the same time, the same time, we could steer away. And to the thing we could steer away. And to the thing we could steer away. And to the thing you were raising earlier, I think you you were raising earlier, I think you you were raising earlier, I think you were basically saying were basically saying were basically saying if there's a a lot of people think that if there's a a lot of people think that if there's a a lot of people think that we won't act until there's an a we won't act until there's an a we won't act until there's an a catastrophe. catastrophe. catastrophe. I think you and I both have talked to I think you and I both have talked to I think you and I both have talked to people who probably said that. I mean, people who probably said that. I mean, people who probably said that. I mean, that's what a lot of people believe. that's what a lot of people believe. that's what a lot of people believe. And I sort of feel like there's either a And I sort of feel like there's either a And I sort of feel like there's either a catastrophe or there's a a near a shared catastrophe or there's a a near a shared catastrophe or there's a a near a shared near-death experience that is a near-death experience that is a near-death experience that is a simulated catastrophe. simulated catastrophe. simulated catastrophe. >> Mhm. And the reason why I think this >> Mhm. And the reason why I think this >> Mhm. And the reason why I think this film, the AI doc, is so important, and film, the AI doc, is so important, and film, the AI doc, is so important, and again, I don't make a single dime from again, I don't make a single dime from again, I don't make a single dime from this from whether you see this movie or this from whether you see this movie or this from whether you see this movie or not, but I do think if everyone that not, but I do think if everyone that not, but I do think if everyone that they know if sorry, if everyone who's they know if sorry, if everyone who's they know if sorry, if everyone who's watching this got the most powerful watching this got the most powerful watching this got the most powerful people that they know to go out and see people that they know to go out and see people that they know to go out and see the AI doc. You got your business to see the AI doc. You got your business to see the AI doc. You got your business to see it. You got your company to see it. You it. You got your company to see it. You it. You got your company to see it. You got your church group to see it. If got your church group to see it. If got your church group to see it. If everybody knows that everybody else everybody knows that everybody else everybody knows that everybody else knows, we can steer this to a different knows, we can steer this to a different knows, we can steer this to a different future. Like, just to give people an future. Like, just to give people an future. Like, just to give people an example, Jonathan Haidt, who wrote the example, Jonathan Haidt, who wrote the example, Jonathan Haidt, who wrote the anxious generation, anxious generation, anxious generation, you know, the first country you know, the first country you know, the first country that did the social media bans under 15 that did the social media bans under 15 that did the social media bans under 15 or 16 was was Australia. or 16 was was Australia. or 16 was was Australia. And he just talked about this on Bill And he just talked about this on Bill And he just talked about this on Bill Maher recently that Maher recently that Maher recently that what that did is it it created an what that did is it it created an what that did is it it created an example of something that everybody was example of something that everybody was example of something that everybody was actually wanting to do, but felt like it actually wanting to do, but felt like it actually wanting to do, but felt like it was too extreme until Australia did it. was too extreme until Australia did it. was too extreme until Australia did it. And now, literally 25% of the world's And now, literally 25% of the world's And now, literally 25% of the world's population, represented by countries, is population, represented by countries, is population, represented by countries, is moving to the social media ban. Just moving to the social media ban. Just moving to the social media ban. Just this last week, Indonesia and India, two this last week, Indonesia and India, two this last week, Indonesia and India, two of the some of the largest countries, of the some of the largest countries, of the some of the largest countries, are implementing a social media ban for are implementing a social media ban for are implementing a social media ban for kids under 15 or 16. kids under 15 or 16. kids under 15 or 16. You can pull the train back into the You can pull the train back into the You can pull the train back into the station. The people say the train's left station. The people say the train's left station. The people say the train's left the station. You can pull the train back the station. You can pull the train back the station. You can pull the train back into the station if it creates a future into the station if it creates a future into the station if it creates a future that we don't actually want. that we don't actually want. that we don't actually want. You can't uninvent social media. But we You can't uninvent social media. But we You can't uninvent social media. But we can say, "What are the steering limits can say, "What are the steering limits can say, "What are the steering limits and brakes that we want to apply to this and brakes that we want to apply to this and brakes that we want to apply to this technology before we get to a full technology before we get to a full technology before we get to a full anti-human future that we can't actually anti-human future that we can't actually anti-human future that we can't actually reverse out of?" And if you don't have reverse out of?" And if you don't have reverse out of?" And if you don't have the common knowledge, you sound like a the common knowledge, you sound like a the common knowledge, you sound like a crazy person. You're worried about I'm crazy person. You're worried about I'm crazy person. You're worried about I'm going to be the one parent at my school going to be the one parent at my school going to be the one parent at my school that's trying to get my kid to not use that's trying to get my kid to not use that's trying to get my kid to not use it. it. it. >> Exactly. >> Exactly. >> Exactly. >> And my kid's going to feel left out >> And my kid's going to feel left out >> And my kid's going to feel left out because there is a coordination problem. because there is a coordination problem. because there is a coordination problem. >> Exactly. It's a common knowledge >> Exactly. It's a common knowledge >> Exactly. It's a common knowledge problem. It's a coordination problem. problem. It's a coordination problem. problem. It's a coordination problem. >> The issue that we have here is and you >> The issue that we have here is and you >> The issue that we have here is and you touched on it earlier on, the level of touched on it earlier on, the level of touched on it earlier on, the level of coordination that's needed to coordination that's needed to coordination that's needed to fix a problem with AI is global. Yes. fix a problem with AI is global. Yes. fix a problem with AI is global. Yes. And it's across multiple companies. And And it's across multiple companies. And And it's across multiple companies. And yeah, okay, you need probably a lot of yeah, okay, you need probably a lot of yeah, okay, you need probably a lot of compute, but I saw what happened, the compute, but I saw what happened, the compute, but I saw what happened, the difference between how much compute was difference between how much compute was difference between how much compute was needed to train Deep Seek needed to train Deep Seek needed to train Deep Seek >> Yeah. and how much compute was needed. >> Yeah. and how much compute was needed. >> Yeah. and how much compute was needed. It almost feels like as the AI gets It almost feels like as the AI gets It almost feels like as the AI gets bigger, you can then retrain replicant bigger, you can then retrain replicant bigger, you can then retrain replicant AIs way smaller. So, >> a processor the size of this room might >> a processor the size of this room might be able to bootload AGI in future. So, be able to bootload AGI in future. So, be able to bootload AGI in future. So, you have I mean, we have this with um you have I mean, we have this with um you have I mean, we have this with um desktop synthesizers, right? For desktop synthesizers, right? For desktop synthesizers, right? For bioweapons. There was a moratorium and bioweapons. There was a moratorium and bioweapons. There was a moratorium and it means that if you try to synthesize it means that if you try to synthesize it means that if you try to synthesize smallpox, you get this big red flag and smallpox, you get this big red flag and smallpox, you get this big red flag and some guys in boots kick your door down. some guys in boots kick your door down. some guys in boots kick your door down. >> Right. Um >> Right. Um >> Right. Um >> I'm happy to hear you reference these >> I'm happy to hear you reference these >> I'm happy to hear you reference these examples. These these are important. examples. These these are important. examples. These these are important. Yeah. And they're analo- analogous, Yeah. And they're analo- analogous, Yeah. And they're analo- analogous, right? Um but the problem with the right? Um but the problem with the right? Um but the problem with the moratorium for AI is it can be done so moratorium for AI is it can be done so moratorium for AI is it can be done so siloed. siloed. siloed. >> Mhm. Right? You can just take this code. >> Mhm. Right? You can just take this code. >> Mhm. Right? You can just take this code. You can take this approach. Throw this You can take this approach. Throw this You can take this approach. Throw this model into something. Start to build on model into something. Start to build on model into something. Start to build on top of it. It would be I mean, Nick top of it. It would be I mean, Nick top of it. It would be I mean, Nick Bostrom's old example was, "Imagine if Bostrom's old example was, "Imagine if Bostrom's old example was, "Imagine if you could make an atomic bomb by putting you could make an atomic bomb by putting you could make an atomic bomb by putting sand into a microwave." There's nothing sand into a microwave." There's nothing sand into a microwave." There's nothing Correct. physics in our current universe Correct. physics in our current universe Correct. physics in our current universe mean that that isn't the case. Right. mean that that isn't the case. Right. mean that that isn't the case. Right. But there's nothing that stops something But there's nothing that stops something But there's nothing that stops something analogous from being the case had the analogous from being the case had the analogous from being the case had the world have been a different way. Which world have been a different way. Which world have been a different way. Which is what you're really getting to here is is what you're really getting to here is is what you're really getting to here is what Carl Sagan was referring to when he what Carl Sagan was referring to when he what Carl Sagan was referring to when he talked about our technological talked about our technological talked about our technological adolescence. Like, AI isn't The adolescence. Like, AI isn't The adolescence. Like, AI isn't The conversation we're having isn't really conversation we're having isn't really conversation we're having isn't really about AI. It's about what happens when about AI. It's about what happens when about AI. It's about what happens when we have increasingly powerful, we have increasingly powerful, we have increasingly powerful, dangerous, and destructive technology. dangerous, and destructive technology. dangerous, and destructive technology. Like, as Like, as Like, as you know, humanity progresses, we're you know, humanity progresses, we're you know, humanity progresses, we're whether AI existed or not, we're going whether AI existed or not, we're going whether AI existed or not, we're going to get more and more powerful technology to get more and more powerful technology to get more and more powerful technology that would cover more and more dangerous that would cover more and more dangerous that would cover more and more dangerous and destructive things that you could do and destructive things that you could do and destructive things that you could do with it. Like, we didn't have the with it. Like, we didn't have the with it. Like, we didn't have the ability to do CRISPR and bioweapons, you ability to do CRISPR and bioweapons, you ability to do CRISPR and bioweapons, you know, 20 years ago. Now we do have that know, 20 years ago. Now we do have that know, 20 years ago. Now we do have that ability. And we're going to get more and ability. And we're going to get more and ability. And we're going to get more and more dangerous and destructive things. more dangerous and destructive things. more dangerous and destructive things. And so, the real question that AI is And so, the real question that AI is And so, the real question that AI is forcing us to ask is what is the wisdom forcing us to ask is what is the wisdom forcing us to ask is what is the wisdom needed to wield the technological powers needed to wield the technological powers needed to wield the technological powers that whether AI is part of it or not, that whether AI is part of it or not, that whether AI is part of it or not, that we're going to increasingly gain. that we're going to increasingly gain. that we're going to increasingly gain. And you know, I reference this all the And you know, I reference this all the And you know, I reference this all the time, but it's just such an accurate time, but it's just such an accurate time, but it's just such an accurate fundamental problem statement uh by E.O. fundamental problem statement uh by E.O. fundamental problem statement uh by E.O. Wilson that the fundamental problem of Wilson that the fundamental problem of Wilson that the fundamental problem of humanity is we have Paleolithic brains humanity is we have Paleolithic brains humanity is we have Paleolithic brains that don't update very well to new that don't update very well to new that don't update very well to new information and think things are sci-fi information and think things are sci-fi information and think things are sci-fi and go into denial and overwhelm and and go into denial and overwhelm and and go into denial and overwhelm and blah blah blah. blah blah blah. blah blah blah. We have medieval institutions from the We have medieval institutions from the We have medieval institutions from the 18th century. 18th century. 18th century. And we have godlike technology that And we have godlike technology that And we have godlike technology that makes the 24th century technology crash makes the 24th century technology crash makes the 24th century technology crash down on 21st century society. That's down on 21st century society. That's down on 21st century society. That's what AI is. It's a joke from Moj Jahed what AI is. It's a joke from Moj Jahed what AI is. It's a joke from Moj Jahed Khorutra, who's in the film, by the way. Khorutra, who's in the film, by the way. Khorutra, who's in the film, by the way. And so, if we're to solve this equation, And so, if we're to solve this equation, And so, if we're to solve this equation, this problem statement that E.O. Wilson this problem statement that E.O. Wilson this problem statement that E.O. Wilson lays out, lays out, lays out, the way I always think about it is we the way I always think about it is we the way I always think about it is we need to embrace the reality of our need to embrace the reality of our need to embrace the reality of our Paleolithic brains. That's what wisdom Paleolithic brains. That's what wisdom Paleolithic brains. That's what wisdom is. You know, we know that we are get is. You know, we know that we are get is. You know, we know that we are get overwhelmed and we go into denial. So, overwhelmed and we go into denial. So, overwhelmed and we go into denial. So, we like work with that. We We have we like work with that. We We have we like work with that. We We have systems and practices to recognize when systems and practices to recognize when systems and practices to recognize when that's about to happen and ask, "What do that's about to happen and ask, "What do that's about to happen and ask, "What do we need to hold a difficult reality we need to hold a difficult reality we need to hold a difficult reality together?" together?" together?" That's embracing our Paleolithic brains. That's embracing our Paleolithic brains. That's embracing our Paleolithic brains. We need to upgrade our medieval We need to upgrade our medieval We need to upgrade our medieval institutions. We should be using 21st institutions. We should be using 21st institutions. We should be using 21st century technology to make faster century technology to make faster century technology to make faster updating, self-improving governance. updating, self-improving governance. updating, self-improving governance. Instead of creating recursively Instead of creating recursively Instead of creating recursively self-improving AI, we should be creating self-improving AI, we should be creating self-improving AI, we should be creating self-improving governance. Audrey Tang, self-improving governance. Audrey Tang, self-improving governance. Audrey Tang, the former digital minister of Taiwan, the former digital minister of Taiwan, the former digital minister of Taiwan, has pioneered what that would look like. has pioneered what that would look like. has pioneered what that would look like. That the democracies could be using tech That the democracies could be using tech That the democracies could be using tech to find the unlikely consensus opinions to find the unlikely consensus opinions to find the unlikely consensus opinions of everybody. of everybody. of everybody. One of the things that's going to exist One of the things that's going to exist One of the things that's going to exist in the next few months is a national in the next few months is a national in the next few months is a national dialogue on AI. dialogue on AI. dialogue on AI. Facilitated by technology, where people Facilitated by technology, where people Facilitated by technology, where people can add their own ideas about how AI can add their own ideas about how AI can add their own ideas about how AI should be governed. And when you vote should be governed. And when you vote should be governed. And when you vote and you click, it's going to reveal the and you click, it's going to reveal the and you click, it's going to reveal the the most popular consensus opinions the most popular consensus opinions the most popular consensus opinions about what should happen about these about what should happen about these about what should happen about these different issues. different issues. different issues. It's one thing if we live in a world It's one thing if we live in a world It's one thing if we live in a world where there's a cacophony and confusion where there's a cacophony and confusion where there's a cacophony and confusion about AI. And it's another thing if we about AI. And it's another thing if we about AI. And it's another thing if we live in a world where you see on a clear live in a world where you see on a clear live in a world where you see on a clear webpage that 600,000 people have voted webpage that 600,000 people have voted webpage that 600,000 people have voted and 96% of people across all these and 96% of people across all these and 96% of people across all these countries agree that there should be countries agree that there should be countries agree that there should be international limits. You're trying to international limits. You're trying to international limits. You're trying to make transparent common knowledge. make transparent common knowledge. make transparent common knowledge. Exactly. Exactly. We're trying to make Exactly. Exactly. We're trying to make Exactly. Exactly. We're trying to make transparent common knowledge. And one of transparent common knowledge. And one of transparent common knowledge. And one of the ways to think about it is the the ways to think about it is the the ways to think about it is the movement has to see itself. There is a movement has to see itself. There is a movement has to see itself. There is a movement for humane technology. There is movement for humane technology. There is movement for humane technology. There is a movement for a human future. a movement for a human future. a movement for a human future. Um Um Um it just hasn't it hasn't had a way to it just hasn't it hasn't had a way to it just hasn't it hasn't had a way to experience itself yet. experience itself yet. experience itself yet. And when you see graffiti on an on a New And when you see graffiti on an on a New And when you see graffiti on an on a New York subway ad for an AI product people York subway ad for an AI product people York subway ad for an AI product people don't need, people saying I don't want don't need, people saying I don't want don't need, people saying I don't want this or AI is not inevitable, that's the this or AI is not inevitable, that's the this or AI is not inevitable, that's the human movement. When you see kids gather human movement. When you see kids gather human movement. When you see kids gather in Central Park uh for the Lamplight in Central Park uh for the Lamplight in Central Park uh for the Lamplight Club and delete social media off their Club and delete social media off their Club and delete social media off their phones together, that's a club that's in phones together, that's a club that's in phones together, that's a club that's in New York. That's the human movement. New York. That's the human movement. New York. That's the human movement. There's so many things that people are There's so many things that people are There's so many things that people are already doing that is part of this. We already doing that is part of this. We already doing that is part of this. We just haven't had a name for just haven't had a name for just haven't had a name for we're fighting back for reclaiming and we're fighting back for reclaiming and we're fighting back for reclaiming and protecting what's really human. protecting what's really human. protecting what's really human. Because again, our political voice is Because again, our political voice is Because again, our political voice is about to not matter. Once all the jobs about to not matter. Once all the jobs about to not matter. Once all the jobs get automated by AI, get automated by AI, get automated by AI, and governments and companies don't have and governments and companies don't have and governments and companies don't have to listen to the people cuz we're not to listen to the people cuz we're not to listen to the people cuz we're not the ones that are generating the the ones that are generating the the ones that are generating the revenue. You could have a union before revenue. You could have a union before revenue. You could have a union before when the factories need the human labor when the factories need the human labor when the factories need the human labor and then the human labor can get and then the human labor can get and then the human labor can get together and express its common voice. together and express its common voice. together and express its common voice. We want this instead of that. We want to We want this instead of that. We want to We want this instead of that. We want to be paid like this. We don't want these be paid like this. We don't want these be paid like this. We don't want these working standards. working standards. working standards. What happens when the companies and the What happens when the companies and the What happens when the companies and the countries don't need you anymore? countries don't need you anymore? countries don't need you anymore? This is literally the last time that our This is literally the last time that our This is literally the last time that our political voice will matter. And this is political voice will matter. And this is political voice will matter. And this is the time to express that voice in many the time to express that voice in many the time to express that voice in many different ways. You can boycott unsafe different ways. You can boycott unsafe different ways. You can boycott unsafe AI companies or AI companies that enable AI companies or AI companies that enable AI companies or AI companies that enable mass surveillance. What did we just see mass surveillance. What did we just see mass surveillance. What did we just see with the thing that went down with the with the thing that went down with the with the thing that went down with the Pentagon Pentagon Pentagon and Anthropic last week? Is that uh and Anthropic last week? Is that uh and Anthropic last week? Is that uh subscriptions for ChatGPT went down like subscriptions for ChatGPT went down like subscriptions for ChatGPT went down like tons. And and subscriptions for tons. And and subscriptions for tons. And and subscriptions for Anthropic went up by a lot. Anthropic went up by a lot. Anthropic went up by a lot. If it wasn't just individuals that were If it wasn't just individuals that were If it wasn't just individuals that were doing that, but entire Fortune 500 doing that, but entire Fortune 500 doing that, but entire Fortune 500 companies that were doing that, given companies that were doing that, given companies that were doing that, given the amount of debt that these companies the amount of debt that these companies the amount of debt that these companies have taken on, have taken on, have taken on, the companies will have to respond to the companies will have to respond to the companies will have to respond to that market signal. So mass boycotts can that market signal. So mass boycotts can that market signal. So mass boycotts can have a huge effect on steering which AI have a huge effect on steering which AI have a huge effect on steering which AI future we get. Are we going to get mass future we get. Are we going to get mass future we get. Are we going to get mass surveillance? Are we going to get a surveillance? Are we going to get a surveillance? Are we going to get a world where AI companies are world where AI companies are world where AI companies are incentivized to do the right things? Are incentivized to do the right things? Are incentivized to do the right things? Are you concerned about companies that are you concerned about companies that are you concerned about companies that are playing the same game, but just trying playing the same game, but just trying playing the same game, but just trying to manipulate their optics in a slightly to manipulate their optics in a slightly to manipulate their optics in a slightly sexier way? Absolutely. It seems to me sexier way? Absolutely. It seems to me sexier way? Absolutely. It seems to me that the incentives for Anthropic are that the incentives for Anthropic are that the incentives for Anthropic are exactly the same as they are for exactly the same as they are for exactly the same as they are for everybody else. I think I think until everybody else. I think I think until everybody else. I think I think until now, yes. You mentioned the Antichrist now, yes. You mentioned the Antichrist now, yes. You mentioned the Antichrist earlier on, Scott Alexander, who I think earlier on, Scott Alexander, who I think earlier on, Scott Alexander, who I think is the best blogger on the planet. Yeah. is the best blogger on the planet. Yeah. is the best blogger on the planet. Yeah. He says that Anthropic is much more He says that Anthropic is much more He says that Anthropic is much more likely to be the Antichrist than any likely to be the Antichrist than any likely to be the Antichrist than any other AI company because the Antichrist other AI company because the Antichrist other AI company because the Antichrist would present itself as being for the would present itself as being for the would present itself as being for the people. And people. And people. And who are we kidding that you have the who are we kidding that you have the who are we kidding that you have the same market incentives to overtrain your same market incentives to overtrain your same market incentives to overtrain your models as quickly as possible with RL models as quickly as possible with RL models as quickly as possible with RL and your and your and your the synthetic environments to keep on the synthetic environments to keep on the synthetic environments to keep on pushing this thing. We need as much pushing this thing. We need as much pushing this thing. We need as much compute. So you can talk about the compute. So you can talk about the compute. So you can talk about the optics up front as much as you want, but optics up front as much as you want, but optics up front as much as you want, but really that's just window dressing on really that's just window dressing on really that's just window dressing on the top of a burning house. the top of a burning house. the top of a burning house. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. Uh what you're saying is super Uh what you're saying is super Uh what you're saying is super important. And this is one of the I I important. And this is one of the I I important. And this is one of the I I this is not me saying everyone should this is not me saying everyone should this is not me saying everyone should just put their money into Anthropic and just put their money into Anthropic and just put their money into Anthropic and then the world will be fine. In fact, then the world will be fine. In fact, then the world will be fine. In fact, there's actually a view by many people there's actually a view by many people there's actually a view by many people that that that Anthropic in some ways is dangerous Anthropic in some ways is dangerous Anthropic in some ways is dangerous because because because the view that it is the safest, it's the the view that it is the safest, it's the the view that it is the safest, it's the Volvo. People know that Volvos are like Volvo. People know that Volvos are like Volvo. People know that Volvos are like the safest cars. They did a lot of the safest cars. They did a lot of the safest cars. They did a lot of marketing to present that. Um people marketing to present that. Um people marketing to present that. Um people think that Anthropic is just the safe AI think that Anthropic is just the safe AI think that Anthropic is just the safe AI company. So if they won, then suddenly company. So if they won, then suddenly company. So if they won, then suddenly everything is fine. everything is fine. everything is fine. And that would be dangerous. And that we And that would be dangerous. And that we And that would be dangerous. And that we have to have a critical view of the have to have a critical view of the have to have a critical view of the companies and the technology and the companies and the technology and the companies and the technology and the international limits that we need that international limits that we need that international limits that we need that are are are that are going to happen from outside that are going to happen from outside that are going to happen from outside and above the companies, not just what and above the companies, not just what and above the companies, not just what an individual company can do. an individual company can do. an individual company can do. So I totally agree. So I totally agree. So I totally agree. How long have we got? No one knows because AI is literally No one knows because AI is literally moving so quickly. If I went on Twitter, moving so quickly. If I went on Twitter, moving so quickly. If I went on Twitter, Elon joked in a conversation I saw Elon joked in a conversation I saw Elon joked in a conversation I saw yesterday, yesterday, yesterday, you know, it used to be that you go on you know, it used to be that you go on you know, it used to be that you go on Twitter once every 6 months, this is Twitter once every 6 months, this is Twitter once every 6 months, this is several years ago, you would see a huge several years ago, you would see a huge several years ago, you would see a huge AI breakthrough like that would just AI breakthrough like that would just AI breakthrough like that would just really change the game. Now there's one, really change the game. Now there's one, really change the game. Now there's one, you know, that you see when you go to you know, that you see when you go to you know, that you see when you go to bed and there's a new one when you wake bed and there's a new one when you wake bed and there's a new one when you wake up in the morning and you're on Twitter up in the morning and you're on Twitter up in the morning and you're on Twitter and you see it. and you see it. and you see it. And the pace is pretty overwhelming. And the pace is pretty overwhelming. And the pace is pretty overwhelming. So I think rather than ask So I think rather than ask So I think rather than ask how much time do we have, how much time do we have, how much time do we have, which is kind of like which is kind of like which is kind of like just trying to assuage the fear that I just trying to assuage the fear that I just trying to assuage the fear that I think a lot of people feel. think a lot of people feel. think a lot of people feel. The kind of bold, brave human thing to The kind of bold, brave human thing to The kind of bold, brave human thing to do is to ask if things were to go well, do is to ask if things were to go well, do is to ask if things were to go well, what would that mean about how we were what would that mean about how we were what would that mean about how we were showing up? showing up? showing up? And then to get as many people as And then to get as many people as And then to get as many people as possible showing up from that place, possible showing up from that place, possible showing up from that place, because that gets us the best because that gets us the best because that gets us the best decentralized conditions to get to the decentralized conditions to get to the decentralized conditions to get to the better outcome. better outcome. better outcome. They say in mathematics um that in chaos They say in mathematics um that in chaos They say in mathematics um that in chaos initial conditions matter. initial conditions matter. initial conditions matter. So I'm not guaranteeing in any way, So I'm not guaranteeing in any way, So I'm not guaranteeing in any way, shape or form, that we're going to get shape or form, that we're going to get shape or form, that we're going to get to the better future. But I would like to the better future. But I would like to the better future. But I would like to invite people again into to invite people again into to invite people again into stepping into and standing from the most stepping into and standing from the most stepping into and standing from the most wise and mature version of ourselves wise and mature version of ourselves wise and mature version of ourselves that would behave as if we were going to that would behave as if we were going to that would behave as if we were going to get to that better future, because that get to that better future, because that get to that better future, because that would give us the best chances of doing would give us the best chances of doing would give us the best chances of doing so. And the alternative is just so. And the alternative is just so. And the alternative is just surrender. surrender. surrender. The alternative is The alternative is The alternative is schisming, denying, depression, schisming, denying, depression, schisming, denying, depression, overwhelm. overwhelm. overwhelm. The integrity and the kind of flow of The integrity and the kind of flow of The integrity and the kind of flow of energy that I think you'll feel inside energy that I think you'll feel inside energy that I think you'll feel inside yourself if you align with what is yourself if you align with what is yourself if you align with what is actually needed in this moment. There's actually needed in this moment. There's actually needed in this moment. There's more meaningfulness. There's more more meaningfulness. There's more more meaningfulness. There's more preciousness of life. Like there's so preciousness of life. Like there's so preciousness of life. Like there's so much more like there's so much meaning much more like there's so much meaning much more like there's so much meaning and purpose if you're aligned with what and purpose if you're aligned with what and purpose if you're aligned with what would have things go well. Mhm. would have things go well. Mhm. would have things go well. Mhm. And I think there's this weird thing And I think there's this weird thing And I think there's this weird thing that's happening is if you don't see a that's happening is if you don't see a that's happening is if you don't see a way for things to go well, and then you way for things to go well, and then you way for things to go well, and then you believe the only thing you can do is believe the only thing you can do is believe the only thing you can do is like like like triple down on racing as fast as triple down on racing as fast as triple down on racing as fast as possible knowing where that's currently possible knowing where that's currently possible knowing where that's currently taking us. taking us. taking us. That has a biophysical cost on your That has a biophysical cost on your That has a biophysical cost on your system. Yeah. I think system. Yeah. I think system. Yeah. I think the [snorts] I was trying to think about the [snorts] I was trying to think about the [snorts] I was trying to think about the differences between your past work the differences between your past work the differences between your past work and your current work. Mhm. Focusing on and your current work. Mhm. Focusing on and your current work. Mhm. Focusing on social media versus focusing on AI. social media versus focusing on AI. social media versus focusing on AI. I don't think many people find social I don't think many people find social I don't think many people find social media that net positive Right. in terms media that net positive Right. in terms media that net positive Right. in terms of their experience. Right. I don't of their experience. Right. I don't of their experience. Right. I don't think that many people find AI that net think that many people find AI that net think that many people find AI that net negative in terms of their experience. I negative in terms of their experience. I negative in terms of their experience. I I would just so people hear me say this, I would just so people hear me say this, I would just so people hear me say this, I agree with you that the current I agree with you that the current I agree with you that the current [clears throat] experience of AI is not [clears throat] experience of AI is not [clears throat] experience of AI is not net negative. It doesn't feel that way. net negative. It doesn't feel that way. net negative. It doesn't feel that way. But that doesn't mean that there's a net But that doesn't mean that there's a net But that doesn't mean that there's a net negative outcome that we're racing negative outcome that we're racing negative outcome that we're racing towards. towards. towards. >> But >> But >> But the the the call makes it harder. The call call makes it harder. The call call makes it harder. The call [clears throat] to get rid of social [clears throat] to get rid of social [clears throat] to get rid of social media is easy when people reflect on the media is easy when people reflect on the media is easy when people reflect on the last 2 hours that they've spent doom last 2 hours that they've spent doom last 2 hours that they've spent doom scrolling at night and think I wish I scrolling at night and think I wish I scrolling at night and think I wish I hadn't done that. The feedback curve is hadn't done that. The feedback curve is hadn't done that. The feedback curve is sufficiently quick Right. that people sufficiently quick Right. that people sufficiently quick Right. that people know how they felt even during the know how they felt even during the know how they felt even during the moment. I think right. I really moment. I think right. I really moment. I think right. I really shouldn't watch another one of these shouldn't watch another one of these shouldn't watch another one of these videos. It makes me feel kind of bad. videos. It makes me feel kind of bad. videos. It makes me feel kind of bad. I'm all stressed and tight. My muscles I'm all stressed and tight. My muscles I'm all stressed and tight. My muscles feel tense. Yeah. The same thing is not feel tense. Yeah. The same thing is not feel tense. Yeah. The same thing is not true with AI. You're asking people, if true with AI. You're asking people, if true with AI. You're asking people, if you were to say, and I haven't heard you you were to say, and I haven't heard you you were to say, and I haven't heard you say delete your AI account. Stop using say delete your AI account. Stop using say delete your AI account. Stop using it. I'm not saying that that's the thing it. I'm not saying that that's the thing it. I'm not saying that that's the thing that has to happen. Yeah. If that was that has to happen. Yeah. If that was that has to happen. Yeah. If that was the campaign, if that was what people the campaign, if that was what people the campaign, if that was what people were supposed to do, people would be were supposed to do, people would be were supposed to do, people would be sacrificing their quality of life. They sacrificing their quality of life. They sacrificing their quality of life. They would be able to fix their car less would be able to fix their car less would be able to fix their car less quickly. They would be able to find out quickly. They would be able to find out quickly. They would be able to find out things that they need to about their things that they need to about their things that they need to about their health, to analyze their health health, to analyze their health health, to analyze their health documents, to be able to liberate them, documents, to be able to liberate them, documents, to be able to liberate them, to be able to make uh hard to access to be able to make uh hard to access to be able to make uh hard to access information cheaper and easier and information cheaper and easier and information cheaper and easier and actually to enable their quality of life actually to enable their quality of life actually to enable their quality of life in a manner that didn't happen with in a manner that didn't happen with in a manner that didn't happen with social media. So I think the social media. So I think the social media. So I think the intermediary intermediary intermediary uh experience is less sexy and that I uh experience is less sexy and that I uh experience is less sexy and that I I'm going to guess is also the reason I'm going to guess is also the reason I'm going to guess is also the reason why you're not saying mass unsubscribe, why you're not saying mass unsubscribe, why you're not saying mass unsubscribe, don't use any AI because you're probably don't use any AI because you're probably don't use any AI because you're probably aware that the incentives for individual aware that the incentives for individual aware that the incentives for individual users, users, users, the value judgment that they make isn't the value judgment that they make isn't the value judgment that they make isn't sufficiently imbalanced as it would have sufficiently imbalanced as it would have sufficiently imbalanced as it would have been with social media. For me, it's been with social media. For me, it's been with social media. For me, it's easy to not have it on this phone. If easy to not have it on this phone. If easy to not have it on this phone. If you were to say, I don't want to have you were to say, I don't want to have you were to say, I don't want to have ChatGPT on my phone, I ChatGPT on my phone, I ChatGPT on my phone, I no, I need it. I it's very useful to me. no, I need it. I it's very useful to me. no, I need it. I it's very useful to me. I think it's about understanding I think it's about understanding I think it's about understanding context and what is the careful and context and what is the careful and context and what is the careful and limited way that these tools are limited way that these tools are limited way that these tools are helpful, and then creating the helpful, and then creating the helpful, and then creating the conditions where that's the collective conditions where that's the collective conditions where that's the collective outcome that we're getting. So for outcome that we're getting. So for outcome that we're getting. So for example, example, example, for kids in tutoring, theoretically this for kids in tutoring, theoretically this for kids in tutoring, theoretically this is the best tutor in the world for is the best tutor in the world for is the best tutor in the world for learning. What if the school is uh doing learning. What if the school is uh doing learning. What if the school is uh doing a South by Southwest pop-up in the a South by Southwest pop-up in the a South by Southwest pop-up in the middle of downtown? McKenzie Price was middle of downtown? McKenzie Price was middle of downtown? McKenzie Price was on the podcast. Oh, interesting. Yep. I on the podcast. Oh, interesting. Yep. I on the podcast. Oh, interesting. Yep. I mean, I mean, I mean, I I think that it has enormous potential. I think that it has enormous potential. I think that it has enormous potential. If you look at how most kids are using If you look at how most kids are using If you look at how most kids are using ChatGPT right now, they're using it to ChatGPT right now, they're using it to ChatGPT right now, they're using it to cheat on their homework and to actually cheat on their homework and to actually cheat on their homework and to actually outsource their thinking. And actually, outsource their thinking. And actually, outsource their thinking. And actually, because they use it so much, turning because they use it so much, turning because they use it so much, turning into what the some Atlantic writer wrote into what the some Atlantic writer wrote into what the some Atlantic writer wrote called lemmings or LLMings, where they called lemmings or LLMings, where they called lemmings or LLMings, where they basically outsource all of their basically outsource all of their basically outsource all of their thinking for every moment-to-moment thinking for every moment-to-moment thinking for every moment-to-moment decision in their day about how I should decision in their day about how I should decision in their day about how I should respond to this person or there's a guy respond to this person or there's a guy respond to this person or there's a guy over there I want to talk to and I don't over there I want to talk to and I don't over there I want to talk to and I don't know what to like whatever the thing is, know what to like whatever the thing is, know what to like whatever the thing is, people are outsourcing their decision. people are outsourcing their decision. people are outsourcing their decision. And they're not actually learning And they're not actually learning And they're not actually learning themselves themselves themselves how to show up as a human. how to show up as a human. how to show up as a human. And that is not going to create a safe And that is not going to create a safe And that is not going to create a safe world. Again, that's a version of the world. Again, that's a version of the world. Again, that's a version of the narrow the possible of a technology that narrow the possible of a technology that narrow the possible of a technology that we're promised and then the probable of we're promised and then the probable of we're promised and then the probable of what's actually happening. Yeah, it's what's actually happening. Yeah, it's what's actually happening. Yeah, it's like crumbling cognition. Yes, exactly. like crumbling cognition. Yes, exactly. like crumbling cognition. Yes, exactly. And we saw this with social media. We And we saw this with social media. We And we saw this with social media. We thought it was going to create the most thought it was going to create the most thought it was going to create the most enlightened and informed society in the enlightened and informed society in the enlightened and informed society in the entire world cuz we have the best entire world cuz we have the best entire world cuz we have the best information. It wrecked our attention information. It wrecked our attention information. It wrecked our attention and we have the most confirmation and we have the most confirmation and we have the most confirmation biased, tribalized, low-trust, worst biased, tribalized, low-trust, worst biased, tribalized, low-trust, worst critical thinking society that we've had critical thinking society that we've had critical thinking society that we've had in a generation. in a generation. in a generation. And so again, I think this is just about And so again, I think this is just about And so again, I think this is just about part of the wisdom we need is is to be part of the wisdom we need is is to be part of the wisdom we need is is to be able to look honestly at the nature of a able to look honestly at the nature of a able to look honestly at the nature of a technology and look honestly and technology and look honestly and technology and look honestly and confront it confront ourselves with the confront it confront ourselves with the confront it confront ourselves with the reality of how technology is currently reality of how technology is currently reality of how technology is currently being used and deployed. being used and deployed. being used and deployed. And if it's driving up, you know, an in And if it's driving up, you know, an in And if it's driving up, you know, an in you know, a social media influencer you know, a social media influencer you know, a social media influencer culture instead of creating astronauts culture instead of creating astronauts culture instead of creating astronauts like you know, in in in China they like you know, in in in China they like you know, in in in China they pulled the top the um what are the the pulled the top the um what are the the pulled the top the um what are the the professions the kids want the most? And professions the kids want the most? And professions the kids want the most? And the number one was like astronaut, the number one was like astronaut, the number one was like astronaut, number two was like teacher. number two was like teacher. number two was like teacher. >> or something. >> or something. >> or something. >> Engineer and then teacher or something >> Engineer and then teacher or something >> Engineer and then teacher or something like that. And in the US it was like that. And in the US it was like that. And in the US it was influencer. influencer. influencer. Like I can tell you which world and Like I can tell you which world and Like I can tell you which world and which civilization you're going to get. which civilization you're going to get. which civilization you're going to get. If we really want to beat China in If we really want to beat China in If we really want to beat China in innovation, we can innovation, we can innovation, we can >> me the incentives and I'll show you the >> me the incentives and I'll show you the >> me the incentives and I'll show you the outcome. outcome. outcome. >> Show me the incentive and I'll show you >> Show me the incentive and I'll show you >> Show me the incentive and I'll show you the outcome. And if you really want to the outcome. And if you really want to the outcome. And if you really want to beat China, you regulate social media beat China, you regulate social media beat China, you regulate social media and you stop brain rotting your entire and you stop brain rotting your entire and you stop brain rotting your entire population and you actually invest in population and you actually invest in population and you actually invest in genuine educational technology that genuine educational technology that genuine educational technology that Silicon Valley would ship to their own Silicon Valley would ship to their own Silicon Valley would ship to their own children. children. children. >> This has to come top-down because the >> This has to come top-down because the >> This has to come top-down because the incentives both at the user level, incentives both at the user level, incentives both at the user level, especially now for AI, and at the especially now for AI, and at the especially now for AI, and at the company level, and at the market level, company level, and at the market level, company level, and at the market level, and at the international level between and at the international level between and at the international level between companies, all of these incentives align companies, all of these incentives align companies, all of these incentives align in the same direction, which is I enjoy in the same direction, which is I enjoy in the same direction, which is I enjoy using the product, using the product, using the product, my company generates lots of revenue for my company generates lots of revenue for my company generates lots of revenue for my country for the product, my country my country for the product, my country my country for the product, my country doesn't want to fall behind other doesn't want to fall behind other doesn't want to fall behind other countries in the race to have additional countries in the race to have additional countries in the race to have additional capacities for a technology. capacities for a technology. capacities for a technology. All of these are aligned in the same All of these are aligned in the same All of these are aligned in the same place, which means that it has to come place, which means that it has to come place, which means that it has to come from above all of that, which is a pan from above all of that, which is a pan from above all of that, which is a pan national global movement for humane national global movement for humane national global movement for humane technology that's actually in the technology that's actually in the technology that's actually in the service of people. service of people. service of people. Part of that movement is redefining the Part of that movement is redefining the Part of that movement is redefining the currency currency currency of what it means to win that race. of what it means to win that race. of what it means to win that race. Right now again, the US beat China to Right now again, the US beat China to Right now again, the US beat China to the technology of social media, but we the technology of social media, but we the technology of social media, but we have been losing in the race to govern have been losing in the race to govern have been losing in the race to govern that technology. Like I I think you know that technology. Like I I think you know that technology. Like I I think you know these examples, but um in China as an these examples, but um in China as an these examples, but um in China as an example, example, example, they I think limit social media use to they I think limit social media use to they I think limit social media use to 40 minutes a day if you're under the age 40 minutes a day if you're under the age 40 minutes a day if you're under the age of 14 and I think it's only Friday, of 14 and I think it's only Friday, of 14 and I think it's only Friday, Saturday, and Sunday. Either that's for Saturday, and Sunday. Either that's for Saturday, and Sunday. Either that's for social media or for video games. social media or for video games. social media or for video games. >> Mhm. There's lights out at 10:00 p.m. >> Mhm. There's lights out at 10:00 p.m. >> Mhm. There's lights out at 10:00 p.m. meaning that if you open a social media meaning that if you open a social media meaning that if you open a social media app after 10:00 p.m., it's closed and it app after 10:00 p.m., it's closed and it app after 10:00 p.m., it's closed and it opens again at 6:00 in the morning. opens again at 6:00 in the morning. opens again at 6:00 in the morning. Um this is helpful for when it comes to Um this is helpful for when it comes to Um this is helpful for when it comes to the kind of late night FOMO, brain brain the kind of late night FOMO, brain brain the kind of late night FOMO, brain brain rot, doom scrolling, you know, not rot, doom scrolling, you know, not rot, doom scrolling, you know, not getting sleep. getting sleep. getting sleep. And I'm not saying that the US should And I'm not saying that the US should And I'm not saying that the US should unilaterally like some totalitarian unilaterally like some totalitarian unilaterally like some totalitarian government make that choice or government make that choice or government make that choice or it's just that we can democratically it's just that we can democratically it's just that we can democratically come up with guardrails like this. come up with guardrails like this. come up with guardrails like this. Another thing that China does is they Another thing that China does is they Another thing that China does is they have a synchronized final exams week and have a synchronized final exams week and have a synchronized final exams week and they shut down AI during final exams they shut down AI during final exams they shut down AI during final exams week. week. week. >> Yes, so that so that all the They can't >> Yes, so that so that all the They can't >> Yes, so that so that all the They can't know that if they used AI during the know that if they used AI during the know that if they used AI during the school year, it will completely screw school year, it will completely screw school year, it will completely screw them over during final exams week. them over during final exams week. them over during final exams week. >> Cuz they're going to be relying on >> Cuz they're going to be relying on >> Cuz they're going to be relying on something they can't use. That's right. something they can't use. That's right. something they can't use. That's right. And so we don't have to do what China And so we don't have to do what China And so we don't have to do what China does, but the point is we should do does, but the point is we should do does, but the point is we should do something. something. something. Um in China they're regulating Um in China they're regulating Um in China they're regulating anthropomorphic AI to not to not do all anthropomorphic AI to not to not do all anthropomorphic AI to not to not do all the attachment hacking and the suicides the attachment hacking and the suicides the attachment hacking and the suicides and all this kind of stuff. and all this kind of stuff. and all this kind of stuff. I'm not saying what they're doing is I'm not saying what they're doing is I'm not saying what they're doing is good. I'm just saying they're doing good. I'm just saying they're doing good. I'm just saying they're doing things. We're not doing anything. things. We're not doing anything. things. We're not doing anything. And we can and the purpose of the human And we can and the purpose of the human And we can and the purpose of the human movement is to actually be demanding. movement is to actually be demanding. movement is to actually be demanding. You can actually go and call your You can actually go and call your You can actually go and call your legislator and say that you do not want legislator and say that you do not want legislator and say that you do not want this anti-human future. You want this anti-human future. You want this anti-human future. You want accountability for AI companies. You accountability for AI companies. You accountability for AI companies. You want to ban legal personhood for AI. You want to ban legal personhood for AI. You want to ban legal personhood for AI. You want, you know, no anthropomorphic AI so want, you know, no anthropomorphic AI so want, you know, no anthropomorphic AI so that we don't get the child safety that we don't get the child safety that we don't get the child safety issues with AI chatbots. issues with AI chatbots. issues with AI chatbots. If I was to give you the option of If I was to give you the option of If I was to give you the option of turning the rest of the world into a turning the rest of the world into a turning the rest of the world into a totalitarian state, everything, but it totalitarian state, everything, but it totalitarian state, everything, but it meant that we were able to dictate what meant that we were able to dictate what meant that we were able to dictate what happened to countries and to companies. happened to countries and to companies. happened to countries and to companies. I don't I don't want to create a I don't I don't want to create a I don't I don't want to create a totalitarian state. totalitarian state. totalitarian state. But the alternative would potentially be But the alternative would potentially be But the alternative would potentially be destruction of humanity. destruction of humanity. destruction of humanity. >> [gasps] >> [gasps] >> [gasps] >> Well, Which would you pick? You are >> Well, Which would you pick? You are >> Well, Which would you pick? You are conjuring conjuring conjuring a thought experiment from Nick Bostrom, a thought experiment from Nick Bostrom, a thought experiment from Nick Bostrom, uh which I'm sure you're aware of. uh which I'm sure you're aware of. uh which I'm sure you're aware of. And the paper you're referring to is the And the paper you're referring to is the And the paper you're referring to is the vulnerable world hypothesis vulnerable world hypothesis vulnerable world hypothesis in which he says that as we discover in which he says that as we discover in which he says that as we discover more and more technologies that in a more and more technologies that in a more and more technologies that in a decentralized way have the capacity to decentralized way have the capacity to decentralized way have the capacity to destroy things. So like your example of destroy things. So like your example of destroy things. So like your example of if it turned out that microwaving sand if it turned out that microwaving sand if it turned out that microwaving sand created a nuclear reaction that blew up created a nuclear reaction that blew up created a nuclear reaction that blew up the entire world and we published that the entire world and we published that the entire world and we published that knowledge and it spread virally on knowledge and it spread virally on knowledge and it spread virally on social media, social media, social media, how many minutes, hours, or seconds how many minutes, hours, or seconds how many minutes, hours, or seconds would it take would it take would it take before the world blew up? before the world blew up? before the world blew up? And then the only answer to a And then the only answer to a And then the only answer to a distributed like available to everybody distributed like available to everybody distributed like available to everybody destructive capacity would be a global destructive capacity would be a global destructive capacity would be a global totalitarian society that monitors and totalitarian society that monitors and totalitarian society that monitors and surveils everyone and what they're surveils everyone and what they're surveils everyone and what they're doing. doing. doing. So you prevented mass destruction, but So you prevented mass destruction, but So you prevented mass destruction, but you got 1984 Big Brother and that's an you got 1984 Big Brother and that's an you got 1984 Big Brother and that's an uncheckable power that people cannot uncheckable power that people cannot uncheckable power that people cannot fight back against. fight back against. fight back against. I am very worried about mass I am very worried about mass I am very worried about mass surveillance. surveillance. surveillance. Um I think that what happened with Um I think that what happened with Um I think that what happened with Anthropic is hopefully bootloading a Anthropic is hopefully bootloading a Anthropic is hopefully bootloading a global immune system to the risks of AI global immune system to the risks of AI global immune system to the risks of AI enhanced mass surveillance. Because in a enhanced mass surveillance. Because in a enhanced mass surveillance. Because in a way, Big Brother could have never way, Big Brother could have never way, Big Brother could have never happened without AI. happened without AI. happened without AI. When you have an AI that can process When you have an AI that can process When you have an AI that can process every camera and every face and all of every camera and every face and all of every camera and every face and all of the emails and text messages that are the emails and text messages that are the emails and text messages that are flowing through everything and you can flowing through everything and you can flowing through everything and you can actually ask the question as a state, actually ask the question as a state, actually ask the question as a state, "Who are the number one threats in my "Who are the number one threats in my "Who are the number one threats in my society that I need to suppress?" society that I need to suppress?" society that I need to suppress?" And it tells you and summarizes And it tells you and summarizes And it tells you and summarizes instantly who those people are instantly who those people are instantly who those people are synthesizing all these data streams, synthesizing all these data streams, synthesizing all these data streams, how can you fight back against an how can you fight back against an how can you fight back against an uncheckable power when it knows all of uncheckable power when it knows all of uncheckable power when it knows all of your secrets? your secrets? your secrets? You can't. You can't. You can't. So we're faced with very tough choices So we're faced with very tough choices So we're faced with very tough choices on both ends and I wrote a I did this in on both ends and I wrote a I did this in on both ends and I wrote a I did this in a in a TED Talk uh I gave this last year a in a TED Talk uh I gave this last year a in a TED Talk uh I gave this last year called the narrow path that we have to called the narrow path that we have to called the narrow path that we have to avoid both outcomes. We have to somehow avoid both outcomes. We have to somehow avoid both outcomes. We have to somehow be committed to finding the narrow path be committed to finding the narrow path be committed to finding the narrow path between, between, between, you know, decentralizing destructive you know, decentralizing destructive you know, decentralizing destructive power in everyone's hands without power in everyone's hands without power in everyone's hands without responsibility, without a commensurate responsibility, without a commensurate responsibility, without a commensurate wisdom or responsibility, in which you wisdom or responsibility, in which you wisdom or responsibility, in which you get chaos or catastrophes, get chaos or catastrophes, get chaos or catastrophes, or over centralizing that power in or over centralizing that power in or over centralizing that power in uncheckable ways, in which you get uncheckable ways, in which you get uncheckable ways, in which you get runaway dystopias. runaway dystopias. runaway dystopias. Uh and we have to find something like a Uh and we have to find something like a Uh and we have to find something like a third attractor to quote Daniel third attractor to quote Daniel third attractor to quote Daniel Schmachtenberger or a narrow path that Schmachtenberger or a narrow path that Schmachtenberger or a narrow path that seeks to avoid both these outcomes. seeks to avoid both these outcomes. seeks to avoid both these outcomes. You could say that that is outside the You could say that that is outside the You could say that that is outside the laws of physics or not possible, laws of physics or not possible, laws of physics or not possible, but I think what's what's important is but I think what's what's important is but I think what's what's important is to be to be to be committed to and living from the place committed to and living from the place committed to and living from the place where we would be finding that path where we would be finding that path where we would be finding that path because the only chance that we would because the only chance that we would because the only chance that we would have of finding it would be requiring have of finding it would be requiring have of finding it would be requiring that everyone was living in service of that everyone was living in service of that everyone was living in service of it. Isn't it funny that the two worlds it. Isn't it funny that the two worlds it. Isn't it funny that the two worlds that you identified there, one that you identified there, one that you identified there, one totalitarian overreach that's controlled totalitarian overreach that's controlled totalitarian overreach that's controlled by humans and at the mercy of their by humans and at the mercy of their by humans and at the mercy of their biases, and the other being biases, and the other being biases, and the other being decentralized vulnerability danger that decentralized vulnerability danger that decentralized vulnerability danger that is at the mercy of technologies' is at the mercy of technologies' is at the mercy of technologies' liabilities. liabilities. liabilities. Uh both of those are extreme versions of Uh both of those are extreme versions of Uh both of those are extreme versions of something that we definitely don't want, something that we definitely don't want, something that we definitely don't want, but the restriction on the one that but the restriction on the one that but the restriction on the one that would protect us from the AI would protect us from the AI would protect us from the AI goes back to the bottom of the brainstem goes back to the bottom of the brainstem goes back to the bottom of the brainstem that there's almost never a time that a that there's almost never a time that a that there's almost never a time that a country or a government or a small country or a government or a small country or a government or a small number of people or a large number of number of people or a large number of number of people or a large number of people get most of the power people get most of the power people get most of the power and then give it back. and then give it back. and then give it back. >> It's a ratchet system. >> It's a ratchet system. >> It's a ratchet system. >> That's right. And it only ever clicks >> That's right. And it only ever clicks >> That's right. And it only ever clicks into place and then never goes back. into place and then never goes back. into place and then never goes back. >> why you need to have built-in checks and >> why you need to have built-in checks and >> why you need to have built-in checks and balances on power that are balances on power that are balances on power that are irreplaceable. Like you cannot have a irreplaceable. Like you cannot have a irreplaceable. Like you cannot have a world where that whatever power gets world where that whatever power gets world where that whatever power gets centralized has to have oversight uh and centralized has to have oversight uh and centralized has to have oversight uh and democratic accountability and democratic accountability and democratic accountability and distribution and wealth of that wealth distribution and wealth of that wealth distribution and wealth of that wealth and power depending on if we're talking and power depending on if we're talking and power depending on if we're talking about the wealth versus the power. How about the wealth versus the power. How about the wealth versus the power. How would we know that some country isn't would we know that some country isn't would we know that some country isn't signing up to a moratorium, but secretly signing up to a moratorium, but secretly signing up to a moratorium, but secretly doing all of their research behind the doing all of their research behind the doing all of their research behind the scenes so that they slow down their scenes so that they slow down their scenes so that they slow down their progress of everyone else, but allow progress of everyone else, but allow progress of everyone else, but allow them to race ahead? So you're asking the them to race ahead? So you're asking the them to race ahead? So you're asking the question if let's say the US and China question if let's say the US and China question if let's say the US and China sign an agreement, how do we know that sign an agreement, how do we know that sign an agreement, how do we know that given their maximum incentive to defect given their maximum incentive to defect given their maximum incentive to defect on that agreement and have the CIA or on that agreement and have the CIA or on that agreement and have the CIA or their black operations still continue to their black operations still continue to their black operations still continue to do the research project? do the research project? do the research project? Um Um Um >> [snorts] >> [snorts] >> [snorts] >> this is obviously the hardest technology >> this is obviously the hardest technology >> this is obviously the hardest technology and coordination problem that humanity and coordination problem that humanity and coordination problem that humanity has ever faced. I just need to say that has ever faced. I just need to say that has ever faced. I just need to say that at the top. Like I'm not saying any of at the top. Like I'm not saying any of at the top. Like I'm not saying any of this is easy. this is easy. this is easy. >> war look like child's play. Correct. And >> war look like child's play. Correct. And >> war look like child's play. Correct. And but by the way, I want you to know but by the way, I want you to know but by the way, I want you to know um there's a great video and I can send um there's a great video and I can send um there's a great video and I can send it to you of Robert Oppenheimer asked in it to you of Robert Oppenheimer asked in it to you of Robert Oppenheimer asked in the 1960s, I think he's testifying for the 1960s, I think he's testifying for the 1960s, I think he's testifying for something. something. something. An interview and An interview and An interview and they asked him what how could we control they asked him what how could we control they asked him what how could we control this technology from proliferating? this technology from proliferating? this technology from proliferating? And he takes a big puff in his cigarette And he takes a big puff in his cigarette And he takes a big puff in his cigarette and he says it's too late. and he says it's too late. and he says it's too late. If you wanted to prevent the spread of If you wanted to prevent the spread of If you wanted to prevent the spread of nuclear technology, nuclear technology, nuclear technology, you would have had to do it the day you would have had to do it the day you would have had to do it the day after Trinity. Trinity was the first after Trinity. Trinity was the first after Trinity. Trinity was the first test of the first nuclear bomb. He believed I think this interview was He believed I think this interview was in the 1960s, he believed it was in the 1960s, he believed it was in the 1960s, he believed it was inevitable, there was nothing we could inevitable, there was nothing we could inevitable, there was nothing we could do and the world was [ __ ] do and the world was [ __ ] do and the world was [ __ ] Even he, the creator of the atomic bomb, Even he, the creator of the atomic bomb, Even he, the creator of the atomic bomb, didn't see that didn't see that didn't see that a lot of people would work very hard a lot of people would work very hard a lot of people would work very hard over the course of the next 30 years to over the course of the next 30 years to over the course of the next 30 years to invent what's called national technical invent what's called national technical invent what's called national technical means or satellites that do mutual means or satellites that do mutual means or satellites that do mutual monitoring enforcement, that we would monitoring enforcement, that we would monitoring enforcement, that we would create the seismic monitoring technology create the seismic monitoring technology create the seismic monitoring technology to to be able to to see if you were to to be able to to see if you were to to be able to to see if you were doing an underground nuclear test or an doing an underground nuclear test or an doing an underground nuclear test or an above ground test cuz we would see the above ground test cuz we would see the above ground test cuz we would see the reverberations of that. reverberations of that. reverberations of that. So satellites, seismic monitoring, you So satellites, seismic monitoring, you So satellites, seismic monitoring, you know, international inspectors, know, international inspectors, know, international inspectors, the International Atomic Energy Agency, the International Atomic Energy Agency, the International Atomic Energy Agency, we had to invent all of these new things we had to invent all of these new things we had to invent all of these new things to create a a governance system that was to create a a governance system that was to create a a governance system that was capable of dealing with nuclear weapons. capable of dealing with nuclear weapons. capable of dealing with nuclear weapons. >> Isn't it interesting that the innovation >> Isn't it interesting that the innovation >> Isn't it interesting that the innovation around the technology that was dangerous around the technology that was dangerous around the technology that was dangerous was probably less sophisticated than the was probably less sophisticated than the was probably less sophisticated than the downstream technologies required to make downstream technologies required to make downstream technologies required to make it secure? it secure? it secure? What uh what do you mean? That making What uh what do you mean? That making What uh what do you mean? That making the atomic bomb was one thing. the atomic bomb was one thing. the atomic bomb was one thing. >> Yes. Then there's 50 things that need to >> Yes. Then there's 50 things that need to >> Yes. Then there's 50 things that need to happen in order to have that technology happen in order to have that technology happen in order to have that technology exist in the world. exist in the world. exist in the world. >> There's a safe there's sort of an >> There's a safe there's sort of an >> There's a safe there's sort of an asymmetry where the technology's the asymmetry where the technology's the asymmetry where the technology's the destructive capacity is easy to create, destructive capacity is easy to create, destructive capacity is easy to create, the governance capacity is way harder to the governance capacity is way harder to the governance capacity is way harder to create. The defensive capacity is harder create. The defensive capacity is harder create. The defensive capacity is harder to create and to create and to create and you could have said at the beginning of you could have said at the beginning of you could have said at the beginning of 1945, I guess it's inevitable, 150 1945, I guess it's inevitable, 150 1945, I guess it's inevitable, 150 countries are going to have nuclear countries are going to have nuclear countries are going to have nuclear weapons. There's nothing we could do. weapons. There's nothing we could do. weapons. There's nothing we could do. Let's just like drink margaritas and Let's just like drink margaritas and Let's just like drink margaritas and give everybody uranium and increase GDP give everybody uranium and increase GDP give everybody uranium and increase GDP by selling uranium to the entire world. by selling uranium to the entire world. by selling uranium to the entire world. But we didn't do that. But we didn't do that. But we didn't do that. And people had to invent stuff. We And people had to invent stuff. We And people had to invent stuff. We needed our best engineers and our best needed our best engineers and our best needed our best engineers and our best minds working on how to figure that out. minds working on how to figure that out. minds working on how to figure that out. And I'll just say if you want to look And I'll just say if you want to look And I'll just say if you want to look this up, RAND, the nonprofit defense this up, RAND, the nonprofit defense this up, RAND, the nonprofit defense think tank, has a paper on how think tank, has a paper on how think tank, has a paper on how international monitoring and international monitoring and international monitoring and verification mechanisms could verification mechanisms could verification mechanisms could potentially work for AI. It's not easy. potentially work for AI. It's not easy. potentially work for AI. It's not easy. Mhm. Mhm. Mhm. >> not trivial. Okay. >> not trivial. Okay. >> not trivial. Okay. >> It would require extraordinary >> It would require extraordinary >> It would require extraordinary investments in mutual monitoring and investments in mutual monitoring and investments in mutual monitoring and enforcement and um data centers and like enforcement and um data centers and like enforcement and um data centers and like the you know, chips that attest where the you know, chips that attest where the you know, chips that attest where they are and all this kind of stuff. they are and all this kind of stuff. they are and all this kind of stuff. >> Okay, so there there are some >> Okay, so there there are some >> Okay, so there there are some suggestions. suggestions. suggestions. >> cuz what I was thinking is you were >> cuz what I was thinking is you were >> cuz what I was thinking is you were talking about, well, we can use talking about, well, we can use talking about, well, we can use satellites that work out if you're doing satellites that work out if you're doing satellites that work out if you're doing things above ground or below ground. We things above ground or below ground. We things above ground or below ground. We can monitor maybe the amount of heat can monitor maybe the amount of heat can monitor maybe the amount of heat signatures and electricity signatures, signatures and electricity signatures, signatures and electricity signatures, power usage. power usage. power usage. >> are some >> are some >> are some >> inspectors. Yeah, there are some >> inspectors. Yeah, there are some >> inspectors. Yeah, there are some signatures of people that are doing this signatures of people that are doing this signatures of people that are doing this sort of research because you can't do it sort of research because you can't do it sort of research because you can't do it without there being any externality. You without there being any externality. You without there being any externality. You can't just run it on a MacBook and make can't just run it on a MacBook and make can't just run it on a MacBook and make it look like you're browsing the it look like you're browsing the it look like you're browsing the internet. internet. internet. >> clusters of compute right now to your >> clusters of compute right now to your >> clusters of compute right now to your point. In the future it may shift, but point. In the future it may shift, but point. In the future it may shift, but right now you need large clusters of right now you need large clusters of right now you need large clusters of compute. You need advanced semiconductor compute. You need advanced semiconductor compute. You need advanced semiconductor manufacturing supply chains. Right now manufacturing supply chains. Right now manufacturing supply chains. Right now that's a set of US allies, the that's a set of US allies, the that's a set of US allies, the trilateral. I believe it's uh Denmark, trilateral. I believe it's uh Denmark, trilateral. I believe it's uh Denmark, Japan, South Korea, obviously Taiwan, um Japan, South Korea, obviously Taiwan, um Japan, South Korea, obviously Taiwan, um you know, you know, you know, we could create some kind of we could create some kind of we could create some kind of infrastructure for not some totalitarian infrastructure for not some totalitarian infrastructure for not some totalitarian control of compute, just a governance control of compute, just a governance control of compute, just a governance regime. Like would you call the IAEA regime. Like would you call the IAEA regime. Like would you call the IAEA totalitarian or would you call it a totalitarian or would you call it a totalitarian or would you call it a governance regime for a dangerous, governance regime for a dangerous, governance regime for a dangerous, destructive nuclear capacity? I'm not destructive nuclear capacity? I'm not destructive nuclear capacity? I'm not saying any of this is easy. We have to saying any of this is easy. We have to saying any of this is easy. We have to navigate the narrow path. We don't want navigate the narrow path. We don't want navigate the narrow path. We don't want to create totalitarian controls. We to create totalitarian controls. We to create totalitarian controls. We don't want to create runaway don't want to create runaway don't want to create runaway catastrophes. catastrophes. catastrophes. What it takes is being committed to What it takes is being committed to What it takes is being committed to finding that path. finding that path. finding that path. How much time or energy or resources How much time or energy or resources How much time or energy or resources have we spent even trying? People say have we spent even trying? People say have we spent even trying? People say it's impossible. Have you spent a month it's impossible. Have you spent a month it's impossible. Have you spent a month dedicatedly trying? dedicatedly trying? dedicatedly trying? People say it's impossible. Have we People say it's impossible. Have we People say it's impossible. Have we spent any amount of resources actually spent any amount of resources actually spent any amount of resources actually trying to do this? trying to do this? trying to do this? No. Let's say that there was some way No. Let's say that there was some way No. Let's say that there was some way for you to have God's eye coordination for you to have God's eye coordination for you to have God's eye coordination and that you could step in, would you and that you could step in, would you and that you could step in, would you just put a pause on all model just put a pause on all model just put a pause on all model development to allow us to catch up in development to allow us to catch up in development to allow us to catch up in terms of AI safety? terms of AI safety? terms of AI safety? >> I think the people rather than it >> I think the people rather than it >> I think the people rather than it sounding like I'm some kind of pause or sounding like I'm some kind of pause or sounding like I'm some kind of pause or stop person, the people building this stop person, the people building this stop person, the people building this technology have basically said that technology have basically said that technology have basically said that that's what they would most prefer. that's what they would most prefer. that's what they would most prefer. They would most prefer a world where we They would most prefer a world where we They would most prefer a world where we basically stopped and had the time to basically stopped and had the time to basically stopped and had the time to integrate and develop this technology integrate and develop this technology integrate and develop this technology slowly. That's what they would prefer. slowly. That's what they would prefer. slowly. That's what they would prefer. >> What do you think that if you had >> What do you think that if you had >> What do you think that if you had control, what would you do? I would control, what would you do? I would control, what would you do? I would agree with the people who I'm going to agree with the people who I'm going to agree with the people who I'm going to defer to as the people who know the most defer to as the people who know the most defer to as the people who know the most about the dangerous and destructive about the dangerous and destructive about the dangerous and destructive capacity. So I don't want people to capacity. So I don't want people to capacity. So I don't want people to think this is my view, that I'm some think this is my view, that I'm some think this is my view, that I'm some kind of kind of kind of you know, safety net or something like you know, safety net or something like you know, safety net or something like that. This is just about like I want to that. This is just about like I want to that. This is just about like I want to be able to look my children in the eyes be able to look my children in the eyes be able to look my children in the eyes and say, and say, and say, we did everything that we could to we did everything that we could to we did everything that we could to create the best possible future for you. create the best possible future for you. create the best possible future for you. And I think that basic heuristic of And I think that basic heuristic of And I think that basic heuristic of like, are you operating in service of like, are you operating in service of like, are you operating in service of life and the things that most matter? life and the things that most matter? life and the things that most matter? I think that that would probably be the I think that that would probably be the I think that that would probably be the wisest thing to do. And just to people wisest thing to do. And just to people wisest thing to do. And just to people like ground that, the CEO of Microsoft like ground that, the CEO of Microsoft like ground that, the CEO of Microsoft AI, Mustafa Suleyman, who's a friend, AI, Mustafa Suleyman, who's a friend, AI, Mustafa Suleyman, who's a friend, says, in the future with technology, says, in the future with technology, says, in the future with technology, progress will depend more on what we say progress will depend more on what we say progress will depend more on what we say no to than what we say yes to. no to than what we say yes to. no to than what we say yes to. Your podcast is called Modern Wisdom. Is Your podcast is called Modern Wisdom. Is Your podcast is called Modern Wisdom. Is there a definition of wisdom in any there a definition of wisdom in any there a definition of wisdom in any spiritual or religious tradition that spiritual or religious tradition that spiritual or religious tradition that does not have restraint as a central does not have restraint as a central does not have restraint as a central feature of what it means to be wise? feature of what it means to be wise? feature of what it means to be wise? Does any religious tradition or Does any religious tradition or Does any religious tradition or spiritual tradition say, you know what's spiritual tradition say, you know what's spiritual tradition say, you know what's wise going as fast as possible, not wise going as fast as possible, not wise going as fast as possible, not thinking about the consequences and like thinking about the consequences and like thinking about the consequences and like max, you know, dopamine maxing your max, you know, dopamine maxing your max, you know, dopamine maxing your brain? Like brain? Like brain? Like it's the opposite. It's like this is not it's the opposite. It's like this is not it's the opposite. It's like this is not hard. This is so trivial. It's so hard. This is so trivial. It's so hard. This is so trivial. It's so obvious. It's so obvious. obvious. It's so obvious. obvious. It's so obvious. It's just like snap out of the trance. It's just like snap out of the trance. It's just like snap out of the trance. This is not inevitable. They want you to This is not inevitable. They want you to This is not inevitable. They want you to believe it's too late. believe it's too late. believe it's too late. It is very far down the tracks. It is very far down the tracks. It is very far down the tracks. It would be a right of passage even if It would be a right of passage even if It would be a right of passage even if it didn't work out for us to show up it didn't work out for us to show up it didn't work out for us to show up with the maturity and responsibility to with the maturity and responsibility to with the maturity and responsibility to at least be trying to to live in service at least be trying to to live in service at least be trying to to live in service of the future that we actually want to of the future that we actually want to of the future that we actually want to create. create. create. Can we watch the trailer? Have you got Can we watch the trailer? Have you got Can we watch the trailer? Have you got the Can we get the trailer up? I want to the Can we get the trailer up? I want to the Can we get the trailer up? I want to see the trailer for this movie. That'd see the trailer for this movie. That'd see the trailer for this movie. That'd be great. Thanks. be great. Thanks. be great. Thanks. If this technology goes wrong, If this technology goes wrong, If this technology goes wrong, it can go quite wrong. What the Your fear of AI is the collapse of Your fear of AI is the collapse of [music] humanity. Well, not the [music] humanity. Well, not the [music] humanity. Well, not the collapse, the abrupt extermination. collapse, the abrupt extermination. collapse, the abrupt extermination. There's a difference. So I started making this movie because So I started making this movie because my wife [music] is 6 months pregnant. my wife [music] is 6 months pregnant. my wife [music] is 6 months pregnant. Is now a terrible time to have a kid? Is now a terrible time to have a kid? Is now a terrible time to have a kid? Let [music] me not just be honest. I Let [music] me not just be honest. I Let [music] me not just be honest. I know people who work on AI risk know people who work on AI risk know people who work on AI risk who don't expect their children to make who don't expect their children to make who don't expect their children to make it to high school. it to high school. it to high school. I I What the How does AI [music] understand pretty How does AI [music] understand pretty much everything? It's surprisingly much everything? It's surprisingly much everything? It's surprisingly straightforward. Intelligence is about straightforward. Intelligence is about straightforward. Intelligence is about recognizing [music] patterns. recognizing [music] patterns. recognizing [music] patterns. >> Patterns? >> Patterns? >> Patterns? >> Patterns. >> Patterns. >> Patterns. >> Patterns. >> Patterns. >> Patterns. If you have learned those patterns, If you have learned those patterns, If you have learned those patterns, [music] you can generate new [music] you can generate new [music] you can generate new information. information. information. AI is moving so fast. AI is moving so fast. AI is moving so fast. >> It's being deployed prematurely. [music] >> It's being deployed prematurely. [music] >> It's being deployed prematurely. [music] There's so much potential for things to There's so much potential for things to There's so much potential for things to go wrong. go wrong. go wrong. Why can't we just stop? Why can't we just stop? Why can't we just stop? >> [music] >> [music] >> [music] >> All these companies are in a race to get >> All these companies are in a race to get >> All these companies are in a race to get AI AI AI >> that's vastly more intelligent than >> that's vastly more intelligent than >> that's vastly more intelligent than people within this decade. people within this decade. people within this decade. China, [music] North Korea, Russia China, [music] North Korea, Russia China, [music] North Korea, Russia Whoever wins is essentially the Whoever wins is essentially the Whoever wins is essentially the controller of humankind. controller of humankind. controller of humankind. >> [music] >> We need to take a threat from AI as >> We need to take a threat from AI as seriously as global nuclear seriously as global nuclear seriously as global nuclear war. It feels like I have to find these CEOs It feels like I have to find these CEOs [music] [music] [music] and get them in the movie. Great. and get them in the movie. Great. and get them in the movie. Great. I want to ask you to promise me that I want to ask you to promise me that I want to ask you to promise me that this is going to go well. this is going to go well. this is going to go well. >> That is impossible. >> That is impossible. >> That is impossible. Okay. Okay. Okay. Am I hopeful? Yes. Am [music] I Am I hopeful? Yes. Am [music] I Am I hopeful? Yes. Am [music] I confident that it'll go right? confident that it'll go right? confident that it'll go right? Absolutely not. AI is the thing that can Absolutely not. AI is the thing that can Absolutely not. AI is the thing that can solve climate change. solve climate change. solve climate change. >> We could cure most diseases. >> We could cure most diseases. >> We could cure most diseases. >> [music] >> [music] >> [music] >> What if it's expanding what is humanly >> What if it's expanding what is humanly >> What if it's expanding what is humanly possible? This is the most extraordinary possible? This is the most extraordinary possible? This is the most extraordinary time ever. The only time more exciting time ever. The only time more exciting time ever. The only time more exciting than today [music] is tomorrow. I than today [music] is tomorrow. I than today [music] is tomorrow. I already love you. I think if this technology goes wrong, I think if this technology goes wrong, it can go quite wrong. it can go quite wrong. it can go quite wrong. >> [music] >> [music] >> [music] >> By using AI, >> By using AI, >> By using AI, we're about to move off of the Earth we're about to move off of the Earth we're about to move off of the Earth into the cosmos. into the cosmos. into the cosmos. If we can [music] be the most mature If we can [music] be the most mature If we can [music] be the most mature version of ourselves, there might be a version of ourselves, there might be a version of ourselves, there might be a way through this. This is the last mistake we'll [music] This is the last mistake we'll [music] ever get to make. Dude. Dude. Does it land differently after Does it land differently after Does it land differently after this conversation? It does. I'd already this conversation? It does. I'd already this conversation? It does. I'd already seen it, but yeah, it definitely uh seen it, but yeah, it definitely uh seen it, but yeah, it definitely uh Yeah. I definitely understand more of Yeah. I definitely understand more of Yeah. I definitely understand more of what's implied that Yeah. uh It's what's implied that Yeah. uh It's what's implied that Yeah. uh It's impressive that you managed to get all impressive that you managed to get all impressive that you managed to get all of the guys to sit down. Or most of the of the guys to sit down. Or most of the of the guys to sit down. Or most of the guys. Who are you missing? guys. Who are you missing? guys. Who are you missing? Uh Uh Uh >> [sighs and gasps] >> [sighs and gasps] >> [sighs and gasps] >> I mean, there's obviously many people >> I mean, there's obviously many people >> I mean, there's obviously many people building this technology now. Um so they building this technology now. Um so they building this technology now. Um so they don't have the Chinese labs in it. Um don't have the Chinese labs in it. Um don't have the Chinese labs in it. Um they have they have they have Demis Hassabis from DeepMind, Sam Altman Demis Hassabis from DeepMind, Sam Altman Demis Hassabis from DeepMind, Sam Altman from Open AI, Dario from Anthropic. I from Open AI, Dario from Anthropic. I from Open AI, Dario from Anthropic. I mean, those are the three most No Elon. mean, those are the three most No Elon. mean, those are the three most No Elon. players. Elon agreed to participate in players. Elon agreed to participate in players. Elon agreed to participate in the movie and then um I think it was the movie and then um I think it was the movie and then um I think it was right in the beginning of the first um right in the beginning of the first um right in the beginning of the first um few days of the Trump administration few days of the Trump administration few days of the Trump administration that he was busy and didn't follow that he was busy and didn't follow that he was busy and didn't follow through, so. Mhm. Uh but I think the through, so. Mhm. Uh but I think the through, so. Mhm. Uh but I think the team really wanted him to be in the team really wanted him to be in the team really wanted him to be in the movie and wanted to hear his views. I movie and wanted to hear his views. I movie and wanted to hear his views. I mean, to give Elon credit, he was one of mean, to give Elon credit, he was one of mean, to give Elon credit, he was one of the first people who cared about AI the first people who cared about AI the first people who cared about AI safety. And he said, Mark my words, AI safety. And he said, Mark my words, AI safety. And he said, Mark my words, AI is far more dangerous than nukes. And he is far more dangerous than nukes. And he is far more dangerous than nukes. And he said this in like, what was it, 2015, said this in like, what was it, 2015, said this in like, what was it, 2015, 2016? Like way before people were taking 2016? Like way before people were taking 2016? Like way before people were taking AI seriously. Like back then AI was just AI seriously. Like back then AI was just AI seriously. Like back then AI was just recommending what other product you recommending what other product you recommending what other product you should get on Amazon and doing facial should get on Amazon and doing facial should get on Amazon and doing facial recognition for toll booths and, you recognition for toll booths and, you recognition for toll booths and, you know, bridges and stuff like that. know, bridges and stuff like that. know, bridges and stuff like that. >> about what much of Superintelligence and >> about what much of Superintelligence and >> about what much of Superintelligence and sort of the fallout around that book sort of the fallout around that book sort of the fallout around that book from Nick was. So much of it was almost from Nick was. So much of it was almost from Nick was. So much of it was almost uh advice for how to talk to your uh advice for how to talk to your uh advice for how to talk to your friends about this without being mocked friends about this without being mocked friends about this without being mocked too much. Right. It was these are the too much. Right. It was these are the too much. Right. It was these are the best examples to use so that you don't best examples to use so that you don't best examples to use so that you don't sound like the insane person at sound like the insane person at sound like the insane person at Thanksgiving dinner. Thanksgiving dinner. Thanksgiving dinner. >> And ironically, the paper clip >> And ironically, the paper clip >> And ironically, the paper clip maximizing example did make people sound maximizing example did make people sound maximizing example did make people sound ridiculous and insane. Uh that that then ridiculous and insane. Uh that that then ridiculous and insane. Uh that that then got really got really got really you know, diminished and and what's the you know, diminished and and what's the you know, diminished and and what's the word I'm looking for? Uh word I'm looking for? Uh word I'm looking for? Uh It just made people it it was used to to It just made people it it was used to to It just made people it it was used to to tarnish people's reputation if you tarnish people's reputation if you tarnish people's reputation if you talked about paper clips. But it's funny talked about paper clips. But it's funny talked about paper clips. But it's funny cuz people say, oh, like the AI is going cuz people say, oh, like the AI is going cuz people say, oh, like the AI is going to People don't know the example. It's to People don't know the example. It's to People don't know the example. It's like like like there you are and the AI is going to say there you are and the AI is going to say there you are and the AI is going to say is going to be told to maximize paper is going to be told to maximize paper is going to be told to maximize paper clips and then the way it will figure clips and then the way it will figure clips and then the way it will figure out how to do that is figuring out any out how to do that is figuring out any out how to do that is figuring out any strategy, which means like turning every strategy, which means like turning every strategy, which means like turning every atom in the universe to paper clips, atom in the universe to paper clips, atom in the universe to paper clips, which means like, you know, melting all which means like, you know, melting all which means like, you know, melting all the humans down and getting them to It the humans down and getting them to It the humans down and getting them to It just taking it to this extreme. And it just taking it to this extreme. And it just taking it to this extreme. And it sounds totally sci-fi. sounds totally sci-fi. sounds totally sci-fi. But if you actually ask a baby AI called But if you actually ask a baby AI called But if you actually ask a baby AI called social media that's pointed at your social media that's pointed at your social media that's pointed at your brain stem figuring out just what video brain stem figuring out just what video brain stem figuring out just what video to get you to watch that keeps you on to get you to watch that keeps you on to get you to watch that keeps you on the screen and you say, maximize the screen and you say, maximize the screen and you say, maximize engagement, well, conflict and rivalry engagement, well, conflict and rivalry engagement, well, conflict and rivalry and civil war is really good for and civil war is really good for and civil war is really good for engagement. So, in a way, we have been engagement. So, in a way, we have been engagement. So, in a way, we have been maximizing a paper clip called attention maximizing a paper clip called attention maximizing a paper clip called attention and eyeballs for a long time and it's and eyeballs for a long time and it's and eyeballs for a long time and it's driving up division and rivalry driving up division and rivalry driving up division and rivalry everywhere around the world and everywhere around the world and everywhere around the world and democracies are backsliding everywhere democracies are backsliding everywhere democracies are backsliding everywhere around the world and it's driving up around the world and it's driving up around the world and it's driving up confirmation bias all around the world. confirmation bias all around the world. confirmation bias all around the world. And the point isn't that the baby AI of And the point isn't that the baby AI of And the point isn't that the baby AI of social media hates you or hates your social media hates you or hates your social media hates you or hates your well-being or hates your connections or well-being or hates your connections or well-being or hates your connections or hates your democracy. hates your democracy. hates your democracy. It's just that it doesn't care about It's just that it doesn't care about It's just that it doesn't care about anything other than whatever keeps your anything other than whatever keeps your anything other than whatever keeps your eyeballs. And that little baby AI that eyeballs. And that little baby AI that eyeballs. And that little baby AI that was just figuring out which photo or was just figuring out which photo or was just figuring out which photo or video to throw in front of your nervous video to throw in front of your nervous video to throw in front of your nervous system was enough to completely system was enough to completely system was enough to completely transform everything. Everything. transform everything. Everything. transform everything. Everything. Everything about how our society worked. Everything about how our society worked. Everything about how our society worked. And I I saw that, by the way, and I'm And I I saw that, by the way, and I'm And I I saw that, by the way, and I'm not some kind of like it's not like I not some kind of like it's not like I not some kind of like it's not like I specially see the future, but in 2013 it specially see the future, but in 2013 it specially see the future, but in 2013 it was so obvious to me if you take these was so obvious to me if you take these was so obvious to me if you take these incentives really far in a decade, I can incentives really far in a decade, I can incentives really far in a decade, I can tell you what world you're going to live tell you what world you're going to live tell you what world you're going to live in. in. in. And the thing that I want people to feel And the thing that I want people to feel And the thing that I want people to feel is if you can see the incentive, you can is if you can see the incentive, you can is if you can see the incentive, you can and you have that clarity, you can you and you have that clarity, you can you and you have that clarity, you can you can confidently say, can confidently say, can confidently say, I don't want the future that that I don't want the future that that I don't want the future that that creates. In 2013 Mark Zuckerberg could creates. In 2013 Mark Zuckerberg could creates. In 2013 Mark Zuckerberg could have said, oh my god, I see we're about have said, oh my god, I see we're about have said, oh my god, I see we're about to create an arms race to hack human to create an arms race to hack human to create an arms race to hack human psychology. I'm going to convene all the psychology. I'm going to convene all the psychology. I'm going to convene all the leading social media companies and the leading social media companies and the leading social media companies and the government. I'm Mark Zuckerberg. I've government. I'm Mark Zuckerberg. I've government. I'm Mark Zuckerberg. I've got billions of dollars. I'm going to got billions of dollars. I'm going to got billions of dollars. I'm going to throw money at this. I'm going to get throw money at this. I'm going to get throw money at this. I'm going to get the government people involved. Um not the government people involved. Um not the government people involved. Um not because the government's trustworthy or because the government's trustworthy or because the government's trustworthy or because we like them, but because I see because we like them, but because I see because we like them, but because I see that we need some kind of rules that we need some kind of rules that we need some kind of rules and I'm going to try to create some and I'm going to try to create some and I'm going to try to create some rules that say, no auto playing videos, rules that say, no auto playing videos, rules that say, no auto playing videos, no infinite scroll, no one can create um no infinite scroll, no one can create um no infinite scroll, no one can create um unnecessary FOMO. You can't dole out unnecessary FOMO. You can't dole out unnecessary FOMO. You can't dole out like a few likes here and then a few like a few likes here and then a few like a few likes here and then a few likes there like a slot machine. You likes there like a slot machine. You likes there like a slot machine. You have to do them all at the end of the have to do them all at the end of the have to do them all at the end of the day or something like that. Like you can day or something like that. Like you can day or something like that. Like you can create rules and norms so that we didn't create rules and norms so that we didn't create rules and norms so that we didn't get the mass addiction distraction get the mass addiction distraction get the mass addiction distraction machine that we didn't did get. And he machine that we didn't did get. And he machine that we didn't did get. And he could have done that in 2012, 2013. could have done that in 2012, 2013. could have done that in 2012, 2013. That's what leadership, that's what That's what leadership, that's what That's what leadership, that's what maturity, that's what wisdom would have maturity, that's what wisdom would have maturity, that's what wisdom would have done. done. done. >> [gasps] >> [gasps] >> [gasps] >> It's not that hard to see it. The >> It's not that hard to see it. The >> It's not that hard to see it. The problem I think that you're facing is problem I think that you're facing is problem I think that you're facing is every second is so crucial and every every second is so crucial and every every second is so crucial and every single second of compute and of CEO single second of compute and of CEO single second of compute and of CEO attention and of staff base attention is attention and of staff base attention is attention and of staff base attention is going to be paid on continuing to get going to be paid on continuing to get going to be paid on continuing to get ahead in this unbelievable one ahead in this unbelievable one ahead in this unbelievable one to rule them all race. I mean, OpenAI is to rule them all race. I mean, OpenAI is to rule them all race. I mean, OpenAI is a partner on this show. I've spoken to a partner on this show. I've spoken to a partner on this show. I've spoken to Sam twice and both times the calls have Sam twice and both times the calls have Sam twice and both times the calls have been so brief because presumably for been so brief because presumably for been so brief because presumably for every second that he's on the phone, every second that he's on the phone, every second that he's on the phone, that's billions of dollars of potential that's billions of dollars of potential that's billions of dollars of potential revenue or compute or that is being revenue or compute or that is being revenue or compute or that is being wasted. And wasted. And wasted. And that means that if you want Mark in 2013 that means that if you want Mark in 2013 that means that if you want Mark in 2013 or Sam or Dario or Sam or Dario or Sam or Dario >> point is you create so like >> point is you create so like >> point is you create so like literally this is the history of all of literally this is the history of all of literally this is the history of all of law. So like I could kill you and steal law. So like I could kill you and steal law. So like I could kill you and steal your stuff and just take your money, but your stuff and just take your money, but your stuff and just take your money, but I'd prefer to live in and everyone could I'd prefer to live in and everyone could I'd prefer to live in and everyone could do that. And we that'd be a faster way do that. And we that'd be a faster way do that. And we that'd be a faster way to like get money. It's like just to like get money. It's like just to like get money. It's like just everybody kills everybody, grabs their everybody kills everybody, grabs their everybody kills everybody, grabs their money. But that would create a society money. But that would create a society money. But that would create a society that's chaos. So instead I sacrifice that's chaos. So instead I sacrifice that's chaos. So instead I sacrifice some of my abilities like I can't kill some of my abilities like I can't kill some of my abilities like I can't kill people. And instead um we have law that people. And instead um we have law that people. And instead um we have law that we we all sort of notch down some of our we we all sort of notch down some of our we we all sort of notch down some of our individual capability so that we get to individual capability so that we get to individual capability so that we get to live in a society that we actually want live in a society that we actually want live in a society that we actually want to live in. to live in. to live in. And that's what this would do. So in And that's what this would do. So in And that's what this would do. So in 2013 if Mark Zuckerberg had said 2013 if Mark Zuckerberg had said 2013 if Mark Zuckerberg had said I'm going to convene, you know, uh I'm going to convene, you know, uh I'm going to convene, you know, uh Musical.ly which was before TikTok, um Musical.ly which was before TikTok, um Musical.ly which was before TikTok, um Twitter and the other ones and we're Twitter and the other ones and we're Twitter and the other ones and we're like, okay, look, it is so obvious we're like, okay, look, it is so obvious we're like, okay, look, it is so obvious we're in this arms race for attention. in this arms race for attention. in this arms race for attention. Just like public utilities, which by the Just like public utilities, which by the Just like public utilities, which by the way if like way if like way if like in California it'd be PG&E, in Texas in California it'd be PG&E, in Texas in California it'd be PG&E, in Texas what's your electricity provider? It's what's your electricity provider? It's what's your electricity provider? It's like [ __ ] knows. like [ __ ] knows. like [ __ ] knows. I don't know. I have no idea. I have no I don't know. I have no idea. I have no I don't know. I have no idea. I have no idea what my electricity provider is. idea what my electricity provider is. idea what my electricity provider is. Okay. Well, technically energy companies Okay. Well, technically energy companies Okay. Well, technically energy companies have an incentive to maximize revenue. have an incentive to maximize revenue. have an incentive to maximize revenue. So theoretically they're like leave the So theoretically they're like leave the So theoretically they're like leave the lights on, leave the stove on, lights on, leave the stove on, lights on, leave the stove on, do the water 24/7 do the water 24/7 do the water 24/7 and because we make more money when we and because we make more money when we and because we make more money when we do that. But because public utilities do that. But because public utilities do that. But because public utilities rely on a scarce resource called energy rely on a scarce resource called energy rely on a scarce resource called energy that has environmental that has environmental that has environmental um emissions that that are that are we um emissions that that are that are we um emissions that that are that are we have to deal with, have to deal with, have to deal with, there's a decoupling of revenue from um there's a decoupling of revenue from um there's a decoupling of revenue from um their incentive. Is that So for example their incentive. Is that So for example their incentive. Is that So for example in California in California in California you're charged a base rate for like the you're charged a base rate for like the you're charged a base rate for like the initial energy you use and then once initial energy you use and then once initial energy you use and then once you're hitting kind of a capacity that you're hitting kind of a capacity that you're hitting kind of a capacity that would be straining the system, we start would be straining the system, we start would be straining the system, we start to charge you more, but that extra to charge you more, but that extra to charge you more, but that extra revenue doesn't go just into PG&E, the revenue doesn't go just into PG&E, the revenue doesn't go just into PG&E, the energy company's pocket. It goes into a energy company's pocket. It goes into a energy company's pocket. It goes into a fund to have more clean energy that fund to have more clean energy that fund to have more clean energy that gives that gets offset to offset it and gives that gets offset to offset it and gives that gets offset to offset it and create more energy capacity. So with create more energy capacity. So with create more energy capacity. So with attention, you could say instead of attention, you could say instead of attention, you could say instead of companies maximizing attention and companies maximizing attention and companies maximizing attention and driving revenue, you get to make money driving revenue, you get to make money driving revenue, you get to make money from the initial tier one of attention from the initial tier one of attention from the initial tier one of attention that you're getting. And then after that you're getting. And then after that you're getting. And then after that, the resources go into a common that, the resources go into a common that, the resources go into a common pool that's investing in the research, pool that's investing in the research, pool that's investing in the research, the X prizes, the design solutions that the X prizes, the design solutions that the X prizes, the design solutions that research and show that there's different research and show that there's different research and show that there's different ways of doing these feeds. There's ways of doing these feeds. There's ways of doing these feeds. There's different ways of We could have news different ways of We could have news different ways of We could have news feeds that are all about directing you feeds that are all about directing you feeds that are all about directing you back towards community. You live in back towards community. You live in back towards community. You live in Austin, Texas. Austin has uh at least my Austin, Texas. Austin has uh at least my Austin, Texas. Austin has uh at least my friends, there's a lot of community friends, there's a lot of community friends, there's a lot of community events happening here. events happening here. events happening here. But you can imagine a world where the But you can imagine a world where the But you can imagine a world where the default news feeds that govern our world default news feeds that govern our world default news feeds that govern our world were were spending like 30 to 40% of were were spending like 30 to 40% of were were spending like 30 to 40% of what you saw was other events that your what you saw was other events that your what you saw was other events that your friends and other people that you knew friends and other people that you knew friends and other people that you knew adjacent to you were doing. adjacent to you were doing. adjacent to you were doing. You could imagine a world where instead You could imagine a world where instead You could imagine a world where instead of date dating apps profiting off of of date dating apps profiting off of of date dating apps profiting off of keeping you in the slot machine keeping you in the slot machine keeping you in the slot machine loneliness thing where you message loneliness thing where you message loneliness thing where you message someone and never get back to them. someone and never get back to them. someone and never get back to them. In this like new world, all the dating In this like new world, all the dating In this like new world, all the dating apps would be forced, probably because apps would be forced, probably because apps would be forced, probably because of some lawsuit in the against the of some lawsuit in the against the of some lawsuit in the against the engagement model, to fund physical engagement model, to fund physical engagement model, to fund physical events in every city that they operated events in every city that they operated events in every city that they operated in where every single week there was in where every single week there was in where every single week there was actually a physical venue where lots of actually a physical venue where lots of actually a physical venue where lots of people were put in the same room with people were put in the same room with people were put in the same room with lots of other people they matched with lots of other people they matched with lots of other people they matched with who were maximally overlapping. And now who were maximally overlapping. And now who were maximally overlapping. And now instead of feeling scarcity and instead of feeling scarcity and instead of feeling scarcity and loneliness, there's a sense of abundant loneliness, there's a sense of abundant loneliness, there's a sense of abundant access to community and soft dating and access to community and soft dating and access to community and soft dating and soft friends making environments. So soft friends making environments. So soft friends making environments. So you're dealing with the loneliness you're dealing with the loneliness you're dealing with the loneliness crisis, you're dealing with the dating crisis, you're dealing with the dating crisis, you're dealing with the dating problem. When you when you solve that, problem. When you when you solve that, problem. When you when you solve that, then it turns out 30% of the then it turns out 30% of the then it turns out 30% of the polarization online goes down because it polarization online goes down because it polarization online goes down because it turns out that a lot of polarization was turns out that a lot of polarization was turns out that a lot of polarization was just people being lonely and depressed just people being lonely and depressed just people being lonely and depressed from not having any friends. from not having any friends. from not having any friends. >> It's all manufactured. >> It's all manufactured. >> It's all manufactured. Because people are caught in the doom Because people are caught in the doom Because people are caught in the doom scrolling loop. So it's like again, we scrolling loop. So it's like again, we scrolling loop. So it's like again, we can have a better world if we deal with can have a better world if we deal with can have a better world if we deal with the upstream causes of these problems. the upstream causes of these problems. the upstream causes of these problems. We can also have more innovation. Peter We can also have more innovation. Peter We can also have more innovation. Peter Thiel was talking about we need more Thiel was talking about we need more Thiel was talking about we need more innovation, we need more scientific innovation, we need more scientific innovation, we need more scientific development. You know, we would have development. You know, we would have development. You know, we would have stagnation if we didn't have AI. Well, stagnation if we didn't have AI. Well, stagnation if we didn't have AI. Well, how about you regulate the brain rot how about you regulate the brain rot how about you regulate the brain rot economy that's currently degrading all economy that's currently degrading all economy that's currently degrading all the innovation, causing people to be, the innovation, causing people to be, the innovation, causing people to be, you know, not productive and creative you know, not productive and creative you know, not productive and creative and and innovative members of our and and innovative members of our and and innovative members of our society. And instead incentivize society. And instead incentivize society. And instead incentivize entrepreneurs and and again social entrepreneurs and and again social entrepreneurs and and again social groups and community so people are groups and community so people are groups and community so people are actually making things. Mhm. actually making things. Mhm. actually making things. Mhm. So the point is So the point is So the point is I'm a tech I'm a different kind of I'm a tech I'm a different kind of I'm a tech I'm a different kind of technology optimist, which is a humane technology optimist, which is a humane technology optimist, which is a humane technology optimist. If you design technology optimist. If you design technology optimist. If you design technology that is humane to an technology that is humane to an technology that is humane to an understanding of the substrates of understanding of the substrates of understanding of the substrates of society that upon which everything else society that upon which everything else society that upon which everything else depends, depends, depends, you can have a technology environment you can have a technology environment you can have a technology environment that is conducive to the things that we that is conducive to the things that we that is conducive to the things that we want our society to do. want our society to do. want our society to do. Um but it requires different design Um but it requires different design Um but it requires different design principles, different incentives, principles, different incentives, principles, different incentives, different rules, and some coordination. different rules, and some coordination. different rules, and some coordination. This third attractive precipice narrow This third attractive precipice narrow This third attractive precipice narrow path thing. Yep. That you think is path thing. Yep. That you think is path thing. Yep. That you think is important for us to walk appropriately. important for us to walk appropriately. important for us to walk appropriately. The pace at which things are going to The pace at which things are going to The pace at which things are going to happen and change. happen and change. happen and change. Do you think that we're going to be able Do you think that we're going to be able Do you think that we're going to be able to move along that? I mean, you've got to move along that? I mean, you've got to move along that? I mean, you've got this movie, it's going to be a global this movie, it's going to be a global this movie, it's going to be a global moment, lots of people are going to see moment, lots of people are going to see moment, lots of people are going to see it, it's going to get people talking, it, it's going to get people talking, it, it's going to get people talking, common knowledge. common knowledge. common knowledge. Typically things tend to take time. Typically things tend to take time. Typically things tend to take time. Conceptual inertia usually moves over Conceptual inertia usually moves over Conceptual inertia usually moves over generations and centuries. Going from generations and centuries. Going from generations and centuries. Going from heliocentric model of the universe took heliocentric model of the universe took heliocentric model of the universe took like a hundred years. like a hundred years. like a hundred years. >> Yep. How how How how >> in general that we face with technology. >> in general that we face with technology. >> in general that we face with technology. And this is the E.O. Wilson quote. It's And this is the E.O. Wilson quote. It's And this is the E.O. Wilson quote. It's not just that we have paleolithic not just that we have paleolithic not just that we have paleolithic brains, medieval institutions, is that brains, medieval institutions, is that brains, medieval institutions, is that the brains operate on a very slow the brains operate on a very slow the brains operate on a very slow updating clock rate. updating clock rate. updating clock rate. The institutions operate on a slow clock The institutions operate on a slow clock The institutions operate on a slow clock rate and the technology moves at rate and the technology moves at rate and the technology moves at whatever the 21st or now 24th century whatever the 21st or now 24th century whatever the 21st or now 24th century technology clock rate. How do you think technology clock rate. How do you think technology clock rate. How do you think about expediting this change? You have about expediting this change? You have about expediting this change? You have to have your to have your to have your governance move at the pace of the thing governance move at the pace of the thing governance move at the pace of the thing that you're trying to govern. Is that that you're trying to govern. Is that that you're trying to govern. Is that ever going to be possible? Governance ever going to be possible? Governance ever going to be possible? Governance moving at that pace, the lumbering moving at that pace, the lumbering moving at that pace, the lumbering behemoth, what is it? Leviathan leans behemoth, what is it? Leviathan leans behemoth, what is it? Leviathan leans left and lumbers along. left and lumbers along. left and lumbers along. There needs to be rather than There needs to be rather than There needs to be rather than recursively self-improving AI that is recursively self-improving AI that is recursively self-improving AI that is uncheckable by any human oversight uncheckable by any human oversight uncheckable by any human oversight process in which we will for sure lose process in which we will for sure lose process in which we will for sure lose control and build something crazy that control and build something crazy that control and build something crazy that we regret. we regret. we regret. We instead should have self-improving We instead should have self-improving We instead should have self-improving governance. You can use AI to look at governance. You can use AI to look at governance. You can use AI to look at all the laws on the books and say, what all the laws on the books and say, what all the laws on the books and say, what are the laws that don't matter anymore are the laws that don't matter anymore are the laws that don't matter anymore that are creating all this red tape that that are creating all this red tape that that are creating all this red tape that we don't need that's like stifling we don't need that's like stifling we don't need that's like stifling innovation. And get the AI to find those innovation. And get the AI to find those innovation. And get the AI to find those laws and and reinterpret them and say, laws and and reinterpret them and say, laws and and reinterpret them and say, what are the ones we need to get rid of? what are the ones we need to get rid of? what are the ones we need to get rid of? And how do you rewrite them for 21st And how do you rewrite them for 21st And how do you rewrite them for 21st century technology in the current age? century technology in the current age? century technology in the current age? We could be using AI and technology to We could be using AI and technology to We could be using AI and technology to update the governance as fast as the update the governance as fast as the update the governance as fast as the technology, but we'd also probably need technology, but we'd also probably need technology, but we'd also probably need to slow down the technology, which we to slow down the technology, which we to slow down the technology, which we would benefit from because then we would benefit from because then we would benefit from because then we wouldn't crash. wouldn't crash. wouldn't crash. Again, it's like China wins when they Again, it's like China wins when they Again, it's like China wins when they whisper in our ear, go faster, go whisper in our ear, go faster, go whisper in our ear, go faster, go faster. You're going to blow yourself faster. You're going to blow yourself faster. You're going to blow yourself up. up. up. Pyrrhic victory ahead. Pyrrhic victory ahead. Pyrrhic victory ahead. >> Pyrrhic victory. >> Pyrrhic victory. >> Pyrrhic victory. You've You said this earlier. You've You said this earlier. You've You said this earlier. When US races ahead has a more When US races ahead has a more When US races ahead has a more sophisticated model, China gets it like sophisticated model, China gets it like sophisticated model, China gets it like 10 days later. Because first of all they 10 days later. Because first of all they 10 days later. Because first of all they have spies in all of our companies and have spies in all of our companies and have spies in all of our companies and second of all they distill all the second of all they distill all the second of all they distill all the models. models. models. >> they're doing? >> they're doing? >> they're doing? They have spies in the companies. They have spies in the companies. They have spies in the companies. You know, they're maximally incentivized You know, they're maximally incentivized You know, they're maximally incentivized to know what's going on. Plus as I as to know what's going on. Plus as I as to know what's going on. Plus as I as you were saying, they can distill the US you were saying, they can distill the US you were saying, they can distill the US models meaning they can like query those models meaning they can like query those models meaning they can like query those models a thousand times and kind of models a thousand times and kind of models a thousand times and kind of distill the essence of those models and distill the essence of those models and distill the essence of those models and then make and train theirs. So there's a then make and train theirs. So there's a then make and train theirs. So there's a great like meme online of um like it's a great like meme online of um like it's a great like meme online of um like it's a motorboat with a guy who's um what is it motorboat with a guy who's um what is it motorboat with a guy who's um what is it called when you're um wake surfing? Wake called when you're um wake surfing? Wake called when you're um wake surfing? Wake Yeah, like you're wake surfing behind Yeah, like you're wake surfing behind Yeah, like you're wake surfing behind him on the on the string. him on the on the string. him on the on the string. What is it called? The What is it called? The What is it called? The string. Yeah, whatever. string. Yeah, whatever. string. Yeah, whatever. >> [laughter] >> [laughter] >> [laughter] >> Um and and the the guy who's on the um >> Um and and the the guy who's on the um >> Um and and the the guy who's on the um on the surfing says, go faster to the on the surfing says, go faster to the on the surfing says, go faster to the boat that's like racing ahead, that's boat that's like racing ahead, that's boat that's like racing ahead, that's the US that's building the advanced the US that's building the advanced the US that's building the advanced model. But then they're literally on a model. But then they're literally on a model. But then they're literally on a string right behind him that's getting string right behind him that's getting string right behind him that's getting all the benefits from it. all the benefits from it. all the benefits from it. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. And there is a study that Anthropic And there is a study that Anthropic And there is a study that Anthropic found um found um found um that China had been covertly even using that China had been covertly even using that China had been covertly even using US Anthropic AI models to perform a US Anthropic AI models to perform a US Anthropic AI models to perform a cyber hacking operation. cyber hacking operation. cyber hacking operation. So like again, if we're winning the race So like again, if we're winning the race So like again, if we're winning the race to the technology, but losing the race to the technology, but losing the race to the technology, but losing the race to governing or controlling or to governing or controlling or to governing or controlling or protecting the technology, what the [ __ ] protecting the technology, what the [ __ ] protecting the technology, what the [ __ ] are we winning? Yeah. are we winning? Yeah. are we winning? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. It's like this It's so basic what we're It's like this It's so basic what we're It's like this It's so basic what we're talking about. It's like this is not talking about. It's like this is not talking about. It's like this is not rocket science. It's unbelievably rocket science. It's unbelievably rocket science. It's unbelievably simple. simple. simple. If you have the power of gods, you need If you have the power of gods, you need If you have the power of gods, you need the wisdom, love, and prudence of gods. the wisdom, love, and prudence of gods. the wisdom, love, and prudence of gods. I hope we've laid out a bunch of I hope we've laid out a bunch of I hope we've laid out a bunch of examples of how we can do that. And examples of how we can do that. And examples of how we can do that. And while it's not easy, it's not It does while it's not easy, it's not It does while it's not easy, it's not It does not happen by default. not happen by default. not happen by default. If you get everyone you know to go out If you get everyone you know to go out If you get everyone you know to go out and see the AI doc, understand that AI and see the AI doc, understand that AI and see the AI doc, understand that AI is dangerous, get your church group, get is dangerous, get your church group, get is dangerous, get your church group, get your business, your business, your business, and recognize that we need to, you know, and recognize that we need to, you know, and recognize that we need to, you know, not build bunkers, but write laws to not build bunkers, but write laws to not build bunkers, but write laws to actually steer AI before it's too late. actually steer AI before it's too late. actually steer AI before it's too late. You're terrifying, but I'm glad that You're terrifying, but I'm glad that You're terrifying, but I'm glad that you're in the world, man. I appreciate you're in the world, man. I appreciate you're in the world, man. I appreciate you. I appreciate you, too. I really you. I appreciate you, too. I really you. I appreciate you, too. I really appreciate this conversation. Thank you. appreciate this conversation. Thank you. appreciate this conversation. Thank you. All right. Goodbye, everybody.