The Worst-Case Scenario Your Brain Imagines Is Almost Never What Happens | Cassi Vieten

Hey, hey everybody. Welcome to the 10% Hey, hey everybody. Welcome to the 10% Happier podcast. I'm your host, Dan Happier podcast. I'm your host, Dan Happier podcast. I'm your host, Dan Harris. Today, we're going to talk about Harris. Today, we're going to talk about Harris. Today, we're going to talk about how to reduce catastrophizing, how to reduce catastrophizing, how to reduce catastrophizing, interpersonal conflict, and even interpersonal conflict, and even interpersonal conflict, and even physical pain while meanwhile increasing physical pain while meanwhile increasing physical pain while meanwhile increasing your sense of safety in your own nervous your sense of safety in your own nervous your sense of safety in your own nervous system through an innate capacity we all system through an innate capacity we all system through an innate capacity we all have. That capacity is imagination. Now, have. That capacity is imagination. Now, have. That capacity is imagination. Now, you might be thinking, "Imagination? you might be thinking, "Imagination? you might be thinking, "Imagination? That sounds either boring or like That sounds either boring or like That sounds either boring or like something other people have, like people something other people have, like people something other people have, like people who work at Disney or Pixar." But we're who work at Disney or Pixar." But we're who work at Disney or Pixar." But we're all imagining all the time. Thinking all imagining all the time. Thinking all imagining all the time. Thinking about it. We're always uh casting about it. We're always uh casting about it. We're always uh casting forward into the future, thinking about forward into the future, thinking about forward into the future, thinking about how things may go, often in uh paranoid how things may go, often in uh paranoid how things may go, often in uh paranoid and fantasmagoric ways. But my guest is and fantasmagoric ways. But my guest is and fantasmagoric ways. But my guest is going to talk about what she calls going to talk about what she calls going to talk about what she calls adaptive imagination, healthy adaptive imagination, healthy adaptive imagination, healthy imagination that we can use to our imagination that we can use to our imagination that we can use to our benefit in lots of really interesting benefit in lots of really interesting benefit in lots of really interesting ways. One thing you might be imagining ways. One thing you might be imagining ways. One thing you might be imagining at this point in my introduction here is at this point in my introduction here is at this point in my introduction here is that huh is what you're talking about that huh is what you're talking about that huh is what you're talking about similar to the popular notion of similar to the popular notion of similar to the popular notion of manifestation. Well, it is and it isn't. manifestation. Well, it is and it isn't. manifestation. Well, it is and it isn't. And we'll get into that in this And we'll get into that in this And we'll get into that in this interview. Uh my guest today is Dr. interview. Uh my guest today is Dr. interview. Uh my guest today is Dr. Cassie Viton. She's a clinical Cassie Viton. She's a clinical Cassie Viton. She's a clinical psychologist and the director of psychologist and the director of psychologist and the director of research at the Arthur C. Clark Center research at the Arthur C. Clark Center research at the Arthur C. Clark Center for Human Imagination at the University for Human Imagination at the University for Human Imagination at the University of California at San Diego where she of California at San Diego where she of California at San Diego where she also uh directs the center for also uh directs the center for also uh directs the center for mindfulness and she's got a new book mindfulness and she's got a new book mindfulness and she's got a new book which is called Imagine That Transform which is called Imagine That Transform which is called Imagine That Transform How You Think, Feel and Live with the How You Think, Feel and Live with the How You Think, Feel and Live with the Science of Imagination. Dr. Cassie Science of Imagination. Dr. Cassie Science of Imagination. Dr. Cassie Viten, welcome to the show. Viten, welcome to the show. Viten, welcome to the show. >> Hey, it's great to be here, Dan. >> Hey, it's great to be here, Dan. >> Hey, it's great to be here, Dan. >> Imagination, you call it uh the oldest >> Imagination, you call it uh the oldest >> Imagination, you call it uh the oldest human technology. Uh yeah, why do you human technology. Uh yeah, why do you human technology. Uh yeah, why do you call it that? and and more broadly what call it that? and and more broadly what call it that? and and more broadly what what is imagination in in your view? what is imagination in in your view? what is imagination in in your view? >> So the first thing I would say to >> So the first thing I would say to >> So the first thing I would say to listeners is number one to begin to view listeners is number one to begin to view listeners is number one to begin to view your imagination as a useful tool as a your imagination as a useful tool as a your imagination as a useful tool as a useful territory of your cognition. So useful territory of your cognition. So useful territory of your cognition. So when I talk about imagination, you know, when I talk about imagination, you know, when I talk about imagination, you know, they think of it as a kind of maybe a they think of it as a kind of maybe a they think of it as a kind of maybe a little frivolous, a little bit of a little frivolous, a little bit of a little frivolous, a little bit of a luxury. Some people are very luxury. Some people are very luxury. Some people are very imaginative, others aren't. But the imaginative, others aren't. But the imaginative, others aren't. But the truth is that all of us are imagining truth is that all of us are imagining truth is that all of us are imagining all day, every day, and it profoundly all day, every day, and it profoundly all day, every day, and it profoundly affects how we show up in the world, how affects how we show up in the world, how affects how we show up in the world, how we perceive reality. Learning how to use we perceive reality. Learning how to use we perceive reality. Learning how to use your imagination in a way that's your imagination in a way that's your imagination in a way that's beneficial is beneficial not only to how beneficial is beneficial not only to how beneficial is beneficial not only to how you experience the world, which is very you experience the world, which is very you experience the world, which is very important, but also to your brain, to important, but also to your brain, to important, but also to your brain, to your body, and to your health. your body, and to your health. your body, and to your health. imagination. I guess I think about it as imagination. I guess I think about it as imagination. I guess I think about it as the oldest human technology because even the oldest human technology because even the oldest human technology because even as we became mammals and started to kind as we became mammals and started to kind as we became mammals and started to kind of understand how to survive, I believe of understand how to survive, I believe of understand how to survive, I believe that probably for a very long time what that probably for a very long time what that probably for a very long time what you saw was what you got. You know, it you saw was what you got. You know, it you saw was what you got. You know, it wasn't like I wonder what's around the wasn't like I wonder what's around the wasn't like I wonder what's around the corner. I wonder what's over that corner. I wonder what's over that corner. I wonder what's over that mountain over there. Over time, there's mountain over there. Over time, there's mountain over there. Over time, there's this inner part of our cognition that this inner part of our cognition that this inner part of our cognition that has evolved and that lets us test out has evolved and that lets us test out has evolved and that lets us test out situations before we get into them so situations before we get into them so situations before we get into them so that we can sort of try to figure out that we can sort of try to figure out that we can sort of try to figure out who am I in this, who will I be in this who am I in this, who will I be in this who am I in this, who will I be in this when I'm going to a job interview, how when I'm going to a job interview, how when I'm going to a job interview, how might it go? That's the default mode might it go? That's the default mode might it go? That's the default mode network. Sitting and wondering and network. Sitting and wondering and network. Sitting and wondering and projecting and conjecturing. And so projecting and conjecturing. And so projecting and conjecturing. And so that's one form of imagination. I call that's one form of imagination. I call that's one form of imagination. I call it simulation imagination. Whereas it simulation imagination. Whereas it simulation imagination. Whereas there's another form of imagination that there's another form of imagination that there's another form of imagination that I call generative imagination. And I I call generative imagination. And I I call generative imagination. And I know you're familiar with the research know you're familiar with the research know you're familiar with the research on mindfulness and now more recently on on mindfulness and now more recently on on mindfulness and now more recently on psychedelics that there's a bit of a psychedelics that there's a bit of a psychedelics that there's a bit of a dampening of the default mode network. dampening of the default mode network. dampening of the default mode network. The other parts of your brain begin to The other parts of your brain begin to The other parts of your brain begin to light up. And especially with light up. And especially with light up. And especially with psychedelics, there's a ton of network psychedelics, there's a ton of network psychedelics, there's a ton of network interconnectivity that's happening. And interconnectivity that's happening. And interconnectivity that's happening. And so that's where these new and different so that's where these new and different so that's where these new and different ideas start to emerge. The interesting ideas start to emerge. The interesting ideas start to emerge. The interesting way that mindfulness connects to way that mindfulness connects to way that mindfulness connects to imagination is it allows you to imagination is it allows you to imagination is it allows you to understand when am I imagining and when understand when am I imagining and when understand when am I imagining and when am I sensing? Am I telling myself a am I sensing? Am I telling myself a am I sensing? Am I telling myself a story right now or is this something story right now or is this something story right now or is this something that's apparent through my five senses? that's apparent through my five senses? that's apparent through my five senses? And that is very helpful especially with And that is very helpful especially with And that is very helpful especially with negative forms of imagination. And you negative forms of imagination. And you negative forms of imagination. And you know this from your meditation practice. know this from your meditation practice. know this from your meditation practice. I know it that one of the interesting I know it that one of the interesting I know it that one of the interesting things is when you sit quietly things is when you sit quietly things is when you sit quietly practicing mindfulness. My first 10-day practicing mindfulness. My first 10-day practicing mindfulness. My first 10-day retreat, I could not believe how much I retreat, I could not believe how much I retreat, I could not believe how much I was imagining and how much of that was was imagining and how much of that was was imagining and how much of that was negative. And so when we become aware of negative. And so when we become aware of negative. And so when we become aware of our imagination and how our mind our imagination and how our mind our imagination and how our mind wanders, we can begin to feel a little wanders, we can begin to feel a little wanders, we can begin to feel a little bit more empowered about what do I want bit more empowered about what do I want bit more empowered about what do I want to be imagining right now? We may want to be imagining right now? We may want to be imagining right now? We may want to sit and be completely with exactly to sit and be completely with exactly to sit and be completely with exactly what is, which is the goal of many what is, which is the goal of many what is, which is the goal of many meditation techniques, but we also in meditation techniques, but we also in meditation techniques, but we also in our day-to-day lives might say, "I our day-to-day lives might say, "I our day-to-day lives might say, "I notice I'm imagining something really notice I'm imagining something really notice I'm imagining something really awful about the rest of my day. What if awful about the rest of my day. What if awful about the rest of my day. What if I was to say, "How about if I imagine I was to say, "How about if I imagine I was to say, "How about if I imagine something positive for the rest of my something positive for the rest of my something positive for the rest of my day?" So, if I'm hearing you correctly, day?" So, if I'm hearing you correctly, day?" So, if I'm hearing you correctly, meditation, specifically mindfulness meditation, specifically mindfulness meditation, specifically mindfulness meditation, where we learn to have meditation, where we learn to have meditation, where we learn to have self-awareness about what's happening in self-awareness about what's happening in self-awareness about what's happening in our mind and body at any given moment, our mind and body at any given moment, our mind and body at any given moment, can be useful for both forms of can be useful for both forms of can be useful for both forms of imagination, for the simulating the imagination, for the simulating the imagination, for the simulating the fretful pro prognostication version. fretful pro prognostication version. fretful pro prognostication version. Just having bringing mindfulness to bear Just having bringing mindfulness to bear Just having bringing mindfulness to bear can uh help you see, oh yeah, this is can uh help you see, oh yeah, this is can uh help you see, oh yeah, this is what I'm doing right now. Can I change what I'm doing right now. Can I change what I'm doing right now. Can I change the channel? And then uh similarly the channel? And then uh similarly the channel? And then uh similarly mindfulness meditation helps you quiet mindfulness meditation helps you quiet mindfulness meditation helps you quiet the default mode and put you in a state the default mode and put you in a state the default mode and put you in a state where you might have uh generative where you might have uh generative where you might have uh generative ideas. ideas. ideas. >> Yeah. And it's really hard to force >> Yeah. And it's really hard to force >> Yeah. And it's really hard to force yourself to come up with new yourself to come up with new yourself to come up with new possibilities. But one of the things we possibilities. But one of the things we possibilities. But one of the things we can do as opposed to forcing it is can do as opposed to forcing it is can do as opposed to forcing it is create the ideal conditions externally create the ideal conditions externally create the ideal conditions externally and internally to open our minds to new and internally to open our minds to new and internally to open our minds to new possibilities. And so creating the possibilities. And so creating the possibilities. And so creating the conditions internally that are conducive conditions internally that are conducive conditions internally that are conducive to imagination, that are welcoming to to imagination, that are welcoming to to imagination, that are welcoming to new possibilities means loosening our new possibilities means loosening our new possibilities means loosening our grip on our storytelling repetitive grip on our storytelling repetitive grip on our storytelling repetitive mind. mind. mind. >> You have this, you call it an atlas of >> You have this, you call it an atlas of >> You have this, you call it an atlas of imagination. imagination. imagination. >> You can think of imagination as a skill, >> You can think of imagination as a skill, >> You can think of imagination as a skill, as a cognitive function, but you could as a cognitive function, but you could as a cognitive function, but you could also think of it as a territory of also think of it as a territory of also think of it as a territory of being. And when we think about it that being. And when we think about it that being. And when we think about it that way, creating this map of the way, creating this map of the way, creating this map of the imagination became our goal. So we call imagination became our goal. So we call imagination became our goal. So we call it the atlas of imagination. it the atlas of imagination. it the atlas of imagination. >> I think you mapped out five modes. >> I think you mapped out five modes. >> I think you mapped out five modes. >> So many different modes of imagination, >> So many different modes of imagination, >> So many different modes of imagination, but I'll start with first the three main but I'll start with first the three main but I'll start with first the three main kind of lands that are in the territory kind of lands that are in the territory kind of lands that are in the territory of imagination. One is the sensory. So of imagination. One is the sensory. So of imagination. One is the sensory. So yes, visual, but there's also uh yes, visual, but there's also uh yes, visual, but there's also uh gustatory imagination. You think of gustatory imagination. You think of gustatory imagination. You think of great chefs can imagine how flavors great chefs can imagine how flavors great chefs can imagine how flavors might go together and we call it sensory might go together and we call it sensory might go together and we call it sensory motor because you can also imagine how motor because you can also imagine how motor because you can also imagine how your body might move. Then we have your body might move. Then we have your body might move. Then we have cognitive narrative imagination and this cognitive narrative imagination and this cognitive narrative imagination and this actually doesn't require a lot of actually doesn't require a lot of actually doesn't require a lot of vision. You can tell a story and you can vision. You can tell a story and you can vision. You can tell a story and you can read a fictional story and you're not read a fictional story and you're not read a fictional story and you're not visualizing the entire time. There is a visualizing the entire time. There is a visualizing the entire time. There is a storytelling form of imagination. So storytelling form of imagination. So storytelling form of imagination. So that's that cognitive narrative logical that's that cognitive narrative logical that's that cognitive narrative logical form of imagination. And there's one form of imagination. And there's one form of imagination. And there's one more, the social and emotional more, the social and emotional more, the social and emotional imagination. imagination. imagination. Imagining how another person might be Imagining how another person might be Imagining how another person might be feeling. Imagining what you might feel feeling. Imagining what you might feel feeling. Imagining what you might feel under those circumstances. So this type under those circumstances. So this type under those circumstances. So this type of imagination is very involved in of imagination is very involved in of imagination is very involved in empathy and and in compassion. empathy and and in compassion. empathy and and in compassion. >> I think the question that my viewers and >> I think the question that my viewers and >> I think the question that my viewers and listeners will come to this conversation listeners will come to this conversation listeners will come to this conversation with is okay, so how do I use this to my with is okay, so how do I use this to my with is okay, so how do I use this to my advantage? Um, and I believe you've come advantage? Um, and I believe you've come advantage? Um, and I believe you've come up with an acronym that helps us begin up with an acronym that helps us begin up with an acronym that helps us begin to think about how we can train this to think about how we can train this to think about how we can train this innate capacity, which you you described innate capacity, which you you described innate capacity, which you you described as at least in part a skill. Um, and the as at least in part a skill. Um, and the as at least in part a skill. Um, and the acronym, I believe, is vista. Vi Ta. acronym, I believe, is vista. Vi Ta. acronym, I believe, is vista. Vi Ta. >> Yeah, those are actually practices that >> Yeah, those are actually practices that >> Yeah, those are actually practices that are conducive to developing your are conducive to developing your are conducive to developing your imagination in a conscious way. Vista imagination in a conscious way. Vista imagination in a conscious way. Vista stands for visualizing, stands for visualizing, stands for visualizing, ideulating, sensing, transforming and ideulating, sensing, transforming and ideulating, sensing, transforming and applying. So if we start with applying. So if we start with applying. So if we start with visualization, let's take visualization, let's take visualization, let's take self-compassion for example. There's a self-compassion for example. There's a self-compassion for example. There's a very common exercise in self-compassion very common exercise in self-compassion very common exercise in self-compassion which is to imagine someone who loves which is to imagine someone who loves which is to imagine someone who loves you very very much who has you very very much who has you very very much who has uncomplicated uncomplicated uncomplicated endless love for you. You imagine that endless love for you. You imagine that endless love for you. You imagine that person and whatever problem you might be person and whatever problem you might be person and whatever problem you might be dealing with, you might imagine how that dealing with, you might imagine how that dealing with, you might imagine how that person would react to you as opposed to person would react to you as opposed to person would react to you as opposed to your own brain which is like, "Hey man, your own brain which is like, "Hey man, your own brain which is like, "Hey man, get it together. Come on, step up." You get it together. Come on, step up." You get it together. Come on, step up." You know, not always kind. This is a kind know, not always kind. This is a kind know, not always kind. This is a kind figure. That's one example of how figure. That's one example of how figure. That's one example of how visualization can help us in our visualization can help us in our visualization can help us in our everyday lives to si to see things in a everyday lives to si to see things in a everyday lives to si to see things in a different way, to have a new different way, to have a new different way, to have a new perspective. Maybe we made a mistake. perspective. Maybe we made a mistake. perspective. Maybe we made a mistake. Maybe we did something that we're not Maybe we did something that we're not Maybe we did something that we're not proud of. We're beating ourselves up for proud of. We're beating ourselves up for proud of. We're beating ourselves up for it. maybe just today, but also maybe for it. maybe just today, but also maybe for it. maybe just today, but also maybe for years on end. Those practices of years on end. Those practices of years on end. Those practices of visualizing the loving, compassionate visualizing the loving, compassionate visualizing the loving, compassionate figure. Other concrete examples that figure. Other concrete examples that figure. Other concrete examples that seem minor, but they actually have a seem minor, but they actually have a seem minor, but they actually have a pretty big influence on your daily life, pretty big influence on your daily life, pretty big influence on your daily life, is just imagining situations before you is just imagining situations before you is just imagining situations before you go into them, especially if you're go into them, especially if you're go into them, especially if you're nervous. I spent some time sitting and nervous. I spent some time sitting and nervous. I spent some time sitting and imagining what would it be like to sit imagining what would it be like to sit imagining what would it be like to sit down and talk to you? How would I want down and talk to you? How would I want down and talk to you? How would I want to show up? How would I want to speak? to show up? How would I want to speak? to show up? How would I want to speak? What kind of level of authenticity and What kind of level of authenticity and What kind of level of authenticity and vulnerability could I imagine in the vulnerability could I imagine in the vulnerability could I imagine in the future so that I could actually have it future so that I could actually have it future so that I could actually have it more likely when I'm talking to you? And more likely when I'm talking to you? And more likely when I'm talking to you? And that goes for something simple when that goes for something simple when that goes for something simple when we're working out or when we're we're working out or when we're we're working out or when we're recovering from an injury. Let's say recovering from an injury. Let's say recovering from an injury. Let's say you're uh in physical therapy. This is a you're uh in physical therapy. This is a you're uh in physical therapy. This is a great study that was showing people who great study that was showing people who great study that was showing people who were recovering from an injury and were recovering from an injury and were recovering from an injury and working that muscle. when they imagined working that muscle. when they imagined working that muscle. when they imagined the muscle strengthening as they were the muscle strengthening as they were the muscle strengthening as they were doing the exercise, they got 30% more doing the exercise, they got 30% more doing the exercise, they got 30% more muscle strength than if they did it just muscle strength than if they did it just muscle strength than if they did it just distracted. So visualizing is a powerful distracted. So visualizing is a powerful distracted. So visualizing is a powerful tool that we can use very practically. tool that we can use very practically. tool that we can use very practically. Before we move on to uh the eye in Before we move on to uh the eye in Before we move on to uh the eye in Vista, we'll just stay with Vista, we'll just stay with Vista, we'll just stay with visualization for a second because I visualization for a second because I visualization for a second because I find this fascinating that that that find this fascinating that that that find this fascinating that that that thing you just said about how you you thing you just said about how you you thing you just said about how you you can visualize can visualize can visualize your your your muscles getting stronger or healing muscles getting stronger or healing muscles getting stronger or healing after an injury. And uh just just the after an injury. And uh just just the after an injury. And uh just just the visualization can give you a boost on visualization can give you a boost on visualization can give you a boost on top of the exercises you also have to top of the exercises you also have to top of the exercises you also have to do, do, do, >> right? And I'm not sure we know all of >> right? And I'm not sure we know all of >> right? And I'm not sure we know all of why. I mean it's possible that in those why. I mean it's possible that in those why. I mean it's possible that in those experiments people were just focusing so experiments people were just focusing so experiments people were just focusing so much more as they were visualizing it much more as they were visualizing it much more as they were visualizing it that they were doing the exercises that they were doing the exercises that they were doing the exercises better but there could be some other better but there could be some other better but there could be some other reasons for it too that you are actually reasons for it too that you are actually reasons for it too that you are actually giving the message to your brain I want giving the message to your brain I want giving the message to your brain I want to strengthen this muscle and your brain to strengthen this muscle and your brain to strengthen this muscle and your brain is like great I'm going to put into is like great I'm going to put into is like great I'm going to put into motion the things in the body that need motion the things in the body that need motion the things in the body that need to strengthen that muscle a little bit to strengthen that muscle a little bit to strengthen that muscle a little bit more. So in in a very real way your more. So in in a very real way your more. So in in a very real way your imagination is a messenger to your imagination is a messenger to your imagination is a messenger to your brain. what you imagine, you're kind of brain. what you imagine, you're kind of brain. what you imagine, you're kind of telling your brain, hey, I want to get telling your brain, hey, I want to get telling your brain, hey, I want to get ready for a great day, as opposed to ready for a great day, as opposed to ready for a great day, as opposed to getting ready for a fearful and getting ready for a fearful and getting ready for a fearful and difficult day. When I kind of say, I difficult day. When I kind of say, I difficult day. When I kind of say, I want to get ready for a great day, um, want to get ready for a great day, um, want to get ready for a great day, um, that means I'm going to show up in a way that means I'm going to show up in a way that means I'm going to show up in a way that's more relaxed, more grounded, more that's more relaxed, more grounded, more that's more relaxed, more grounded, more skillful than if I show up to my day a skillful than if I show up to my day a skillful than if I show up to my day a little bit defensive, a little bit on little bit defensive, a little bit on little bit defensive, a little bit on guard, a little bit ready for something guard, a little bit ready for something guard, a little bit ready for something bad to happen, and more reactive. bad to happen, and more reactive. bad to happen, and more reactive. >> Okay. Okay. So, you're a scientist and >> Okay. Okay. So, you're a scientist and >> Okay. Okay. So, you're a scientist and you're citing evidence to show that you're citing evidence to show that you're citing evidence to show that visualization can help us practice for visualization can help us practice for visualization can help us practice for things and therefore perform better. Uh things and therefore perform better. Uh things and therefore perform better. Uh can help us um uh uh heal more quickly can help us um uh uh heal more quickly can help us um uh uh heal more quickly from injuries, can help us change the from injuries, can help us change the from injuries, can help us change the complexion of our day. How does all of complexion of our day. How does all of complexion of our day. How does all of that relate to the very popular notion that relate to the very popular notion that relate to the very popular notion of manifestation where if you just of manifestation where if you just of manifestation where if you just imagine something, it'll happen for you? imagine something, it'll happen for you? imagine something, it'll happen for you? >> Yeah. I am not actually a big fan of the >> Yeah. I am not actually a big fan of the >> Yeah. I am not actually a big fan of the secret. No disrespect to people who are. secret. No disrespect to people who are. secret. No disrespect to people who are. I don't like the idea that if you just I don't like the idea that if you just I don't like the idea that if you just visualize a BMW enough, you'll get it. visualize a BMW enough, you'll get it. visualize a BMW enough, you'll get it. Like this is not something that I think Like this is not something that I think Like this is not something that I think is a useful way to look at the world is a useful way to look at the world is a useful way to look at the world because it can be magical thinking and because it can be magical thinking and because it can be magical thinking and it can also make you feel pretty bad it can also make you feel pretty bad it can also make you feel pretty bad when you didn't imagine it right. So when you didn't imagine it right. So when you didn't imagine it right. So what I like to say is that imagination what I like to say is that imagination what I like to say is that imagination is influential. is influential. is influential. It's not deterministic. So imagination It's not deterministic. So imagination It's not deterministic. So imagination helps influence. So when I said this helps influence. So when I said this helps influence. So when I said this study shows that when people were doing study shows that when people were doing study shows that when people were doing their physical therapy and imagining the their physical therapy and imagining the their physical therapy and imagining the muscle getting stronger, they got 30% muscle getting stronger, they got 30% muscle getting stronger, they got 30% more strength. They didn't get cured more strength. They didn't get cured more strength. They didn't get cured immediately. They got 30% more strength. immediately. They got 30% more strength. immediately. They got 30% more strength. So look at your imagination as one So look at your imagination as one So look at your imagination as one influential tool that you have in your influential tool that you have in your influential tool that you have in your toolbox that can enhance your um your toolbox that can enhance your um your toolbox that can enhance your um your performance. And so if we look at performance. And so if we look at performance. And so if we look at athletes for example, one of the most athletes for example, one of the most athletes for example, one of the most robust bodies of literature around robust bodies of literature around robust bodies of literature around imagination and the oldest comes from imagination and the oldest comes from imagination and the oldest comes from athletes. And it's several studies now athletes. And it's several studies now athletes. And it's several studies now showing that if you're on a basketball showing that if you're on a basketball showing that if you're on a basketball team and one half of the team imagines team and one half of the team imagines team and one half of the team imagines practicing for multiple times, the other practicing for multiple times, the other practicing for multiple times, the other doesn't, the people who imagined doesn't, the people who imagined doesn't, the people who imagined practicing are going to do better in practicing are going to do better in practicing are going to do better in practice when it when they're actually practice when it when they're actually practice when it when they're actually playing basketball than the people who playing basketball than the people who playing basketball than the people who didn't. they get a boost that is on top didn't. they get a boost that is on top didn't. they get a boost that is on top of their natural talent. of their natural talent. of their natural talent. >> So, it's a tool, but it's not magic. And >> So, it's a tool, but it's not magic. And >> So, it's a tool, but it's not magic. And when we portray it as magic, it's uh when we portray it as magic, it's uh when we portray it as magic, it's uh dangerous and irresponsible. dangerous and irresponsible. dangerous and irresponsible. >> When I wrote my book, imagine that, >> When I wrote my book, imagine that, >> When I wrote my book, imagine that, based on all of this research that we've based on all of this research that we've based on all of this research that we've done in our lab and that we have uh done in our lab and that we have uh done in our lab and that we have uh pulled together from other researchers, pulled together from other researchers, pulled together from other researchers, I separated it into the science of I separated it into the science of I separated it into the science of imagination, the power of imagination, imagination, the power of imagination, imagination, the power of imagination, and the magic of imagination. And that and the magic of imagination. And that and the magic of imagination. And that last section was pretty hard to walk a last section was pretty hard to walk a last section was pretty hard to walk a good line staying scientific but also good line staying scientific but also good line staying scientific but also allowing myself to be exploratory. A lot allowing myself to be exploratory. A lot allowing myself to be exploratory. A lot of my research has been in the field of of my research has been in the field of of my research has been in the field of spirituality and health. And so I do spirituality and health. And so I do spirituality and health. And so I do believe that imagination is a way that believe that imagination is a way that believe that imagination is a way that we can delve into arenas of our we can delve into arenas of our we can delve into arenas of our consciousness that have information for consciousness that have information for consciousness that have information for us that we can't get in ordinary states us that we can't get in ordinary states us that we can't get in ordinary states of consciousness, but that can really of consciousness, but that can really of consciousness, but that can really help us in our everyday lives and in our help us in our everyday lives and in our help us in our everyday lives and in our existential lives. So that area of our existential lives. So that area of our existential lives. So that area of our being, you could call it like underneath being, you could call it like underneath being, you could call it like underneath the subconscious. You know, we all know the subconscious. You know, we all know the subconscious. You know, we all know that when we're in therapy, sometimes that when we're in therapy, sometimes that when we're in therapy, sometimes when we're in meditation, there are when we're in meditation, there are when we're in meditation, there are symbols or things that arise that we symbols or things that arise that we symbols or things that arise that we say, "Oh, man." You know, or say, "Oh, man." You know, or say, "Oh, man." You know, or psychedelics, let's say. People have psychedelics, let's say. People have psychedelics, let's say. People have profound experiences that are mystical profound experiences that are mystical profound experiences that are mystical in psychedelics that happen potentially in psychedelics that happen potentially in psychedelics that happen potentially in their imagination or maybe in I don't in their imagination or maybe in I don't in their imagination or maybe in I don't know some different form of inner know some different form of inner know some different form of inner reality and it changes their lives for reality and it changes their lives for reality and it changes their lives for the better. I mean, we are seeing people the better. I mean, we are seeing people the better. I mean, we are seeing people who are having profound reductions in who are having profound reductions in who are having profound reductions in post-traumatic stress symptoms, people post-traumatic stress symptoms, people post-traumatic stress symptoms, people who are combat veterans, and it's not who are combat veterans, and it's not who are combat veterans, and it's not like they just had a thought, "Oh, I like they just had a thought, "Oh, I like they just had a thought, "Oh, I see. I can still live a safe and see. I can still live a safe and see. I can still live a safe and fulfilling life even after some of the fulfilling life even after some of the fulfilling life even after some of the things I've experienced." That thought things I've experienced." That thought things I've experienced." That thought comes often after they've had some comes often after they've had some comes often after they've had some imaginative experience that doesn't just imaginative experience that doesn't just imaginative experience that doesn't just tell them, it shows them or it tell them, it shows them or it tell them, it shows them or it communicates to them in this different communicates to them in this different communicates to them in this different way. So I do think there's kind of a way. So I do think there's kind of a way. So I do think there's kind of a magic of imagination in that sense that magic of imagination in that sense that magic of imagination in that sense that um it helps you get in touch with a um it helps you get in touch with a um it helps you get in touch with a sacred aspect of yourself and it gives sacred aspect of yourself and it gives sacred aspect of yourself and it gives people a sense of people a sense of people a sense of existential or spiritual relief when existential or spiritual relief when existential or spiritual relief when they encounter these figures. You could they encounter these figures. You could they encounter these figures. You could even say, and I hope this doesn't offend even say, and I hope this doesn't offend even say, and I hope this doesn't offend anyone, that the religions around the anyone, that the religions around the anyone, that the religions around the world were people imagining world were people imagining world were people imagining all of these very complex systems of all of these very complex systems of all of these very complex systems of symbols and metaphors that could help symbols and metaphors that could help symbols and metaphors that could help them get closer to their values and them get closer to their values and them get closer to their values and remember their connection to the sacred remember their connection to the sacred remember their connection to the sacred and in their everyday lives even when and in their everyday lives even when and in their everyday lives even when they're facing challenges. And I find they're facing challenges. And I find they're facing challenges. And I find that very helpful for many, many people. that very helpful for many, many people. that very helpful for many, many people. >> A few things before we hear from our >> A few things before we hear from our >> A few things before we hear from our sponsors. I just want to gently nudge sponsors. I just want to gently nudge sponsors. I just want to gently nudge you if you haven't done it already to go you if you haven't done it already to go you if you haven't done it already to go over to danh harris.com and sign up for over to danh harris.com and sign up for over to danh harris.com and sign up for my newish meditation app 10% with Dan my newish meditation app 10% with Dan my newish meditation app 10% with Dan Harris. I am so proud of what we're Harris. I am so proud of what we're Harris. I am so proud of what we're doing over there. We've got all of these doing over there. We've got all of these doing over there. We've got all of these live video sessions at least once a week live video sessions at least once a week live video sessions at least once a week where you can meditate with me or one of where you can meditate with me or one of where you can meditate with me or one of our amazing teachers and then get your our amazing teachers and then get your our amazing teachers and then get your questions answered. We've also got questions answered. We've also got questions answered. We've also got courses from legendary teachers like courses from legendary teachers like courses from legendary teachers like Sharon Salsburg and Joseph Goldstein. Sharon Salsburg and Joseph Goldstein. Sharon Salsburg and Joseph Goldstein. We've got a growing library of guided We've got a growing library of guided We've got a growing library of guided meditations from teachers like Sharon meditations from teachers like Sharon meditations from teachers like Sharon and Joseph, but also 7A Salassie, Jeff and Joseph, but also 7A Salassie, Jeff and Joseph, but also 7A Salassie, Jeff Warren, and on and on. But really, the Warren, and on and on. But really, the Warren, and on and on. But really, the secret sauce is community. It is so hard secret sauce is community. It is so hard secret sauce is community. It is so hard to boot up or maintain a meditation to boot up or maintain a meditation to boot up or maintain a meditation practice. And one of the things that practice. And one of the things that practice. And one of the things that really helps is doing it in the carpool really helps is doing it in the carpool really helps is doing it in the carpool lane, and that's what we have set up lane, and that's what we have set up lane, and that's what we have set up over on the app. Go to danh harris.com. over on the app. Go to danh harris.com. over on the app. Go to danh harris.com. There's a free 14-day trial if you want There's a free 14-day trial if you want There's a free 14-day trial if you want to check it out before you buy. We'll be to check it out before you buy. We'll be to check it out before you buy. We'll be right back after this. I was so bad at right back after this. I was so bad at right back after this. I was so bad at so many subjects in school, but there so many subjects in school, but there so many subjects in school, but there was one thing I really loved, and that was one thing I really loved, and that was one thing I really loved, and that was learning new languages. So, I'm was learning new languages. So, I'm was learning new languages. So, I'm really excited that Rosetta Stone is one really excited that Rosetta Stone is one really excited that Rosetta Stone is one of the sponsors of our show. Rosetta of the sponsors of our show. Rosetta of the sponsors of our show. Rosetta Stone just came out with Rosetta Stone Stone just came out with Rosetta Stone Stone just came out with Rosetta Stone Sapphire, their biggest launch in over a Sapphire, their biggest launch in over a Sapphire, their biggest launch in over a decade. This brand new language learning decade. This brand new language learning decade. This brand new language learning app uses the researchbacked method uh app uses the researchbacked method uh app uses the researchbacked method uh Rosetta Stone is known for and adds Rosetta Stone is known for and adds Rosetta Stone is known for and adds fresh cutting edge features making it fresh cutting edge features making it fresh cutting edge features making it easier than ever to go from knowing a easier than ever to go from knowing a easier than ever to go from knowing a couple of phrases to speaking couple of phrases to speaking couple of phrases to speaking confidently about the topics you care confidently about the topics you care confidently about the topics you care about. I have played with Rosetta Stone about. I have played with Rosetta Stone about. I have played with Rosetta Stone Sapphire and it's really impressive. It Sapphire and it's really impressive. It Sapphire and it's really impressive. It makes the learning process quite fun and makes the learning process quite fun and makes the learning process quite fun and interactive. you can do it right there interactive. you can do it right there interactive. you can do it right there on your phone. And uh I I picked on your phone. And uh I I picked on your phone. And uh I I picked randomly Japanese because um I um have randomly Japanese because um I um have randomly Japanese because um I um have been fantasizing of late of taking my been fantasizing of late of taking my been fantasizing of late of taking my family to Japan at some point in the family to Japan at some point in the family to Japan at some point in the next couple of years. And and I was next couple of years. And and I was next couple of years. And and I was picking up phrases within 5 minutes. One picking up phrases within 5 minutes. One picking up phrases within 5 minutes. One of the coolest new features is something of the coolest new features is something of the coolest new features is something called chat missions, which turns called chat missions, which turns called chat missions, which turns conversation practice into a game. It's conversation practice into a game. It's conversation practice into a game. It's a supportive way to build confidence a supportive way to build confidence a supportive way to build confidence before putting your language skills to before putting your language skills to before putting your language skills to use in real life. If you want to take use in real life. If you want to take use in real life. If you want to take your language skills to the next level, your language skills to the next level, your language skills to the next level, don't wait to try Rosetta Stone don't wait to try Rosetta Stone don't wait to try Rosetta Stone Sapphire. 10% happier listeners can get Sapphire. 10% happier listeners can get Sapphire. 10% happier listeners can get 20% off their Rosetta Stone Sapphire 20% off their Rosetta Stone Sapphire 20% off their Rosetta Stone Sapphire subscription when they sign up today. subscription when they sign up today. subscription when they sign up today. This gets you access to Rosetta Stone This gets you access to Rosetta Stone This gets you access to Rosetta Stone Sapphire in 25 languages. Visit Sapphire in 25 languages. Visit Sapphire in 25 languages. Visit rosetta.com/happier. So, I take your point that there there So, I take your point that there there is some magic. You might call it mystery is some magic. You might call it mystery is some magic. You might call it mystery here, especially when you when you think here, especially when you when you think here, especially when you when you think about psychedelics. Although I do want about psychedelics. Although I do want about psychedelics. Although I do want to um come back to that in a second. But to um come back to that in a second. But to um come back to that in a second. But the important point to remember as it the important point to remember as it the important point to remember as it pertains to manifestation is that if you pertains to manifestation is that if you pertains to manifestation is that if you pedal that as some sort of magical cural pedal that as some sort of magical cural pedal that as some sort of magical cural that defies the laws of physics, then that defies the laws of physics, then that defies the laws of physics, then you know like for example I can cure my you know like for example I can cure my you know like for example I can cure my breast cancer without going to see an breast cancer without going to see an breast cancer without going to see an oncologist uh just by p the power of oncologist uh just by p the power of oncologist uh just by p the power of positive thinking. That's when things positive thinking. That's when things positive thinking. That's when things can go haywire. It's super interesting can go haywire. It's super interesting can go haywire. It's super interesting because for a while I was thinking okay because for a while I was thinking okay because for a while I was thinking okay positive imagination negative positive imagination negative positive imagination negative imagination that's what we are really imagination that's what we are really imagination that's what we are really talking about here and I remember coming talking about here and I remember coming talking about here and I remember coming to a point where I said no no no it's to a point where I said no no no it's to a point where I said no no no it's not about positive and negative it's not about positive and negative it's not about positive and negative it's about adaptive and maladaptive because about adaptive and maladaptive because about adaptive and maladaptive because adaptive healthy imagination adaptive healthy imagination adaptive healthy imagination it slants towards things that are more it slants towards things that are more it slants towards things that are more positive or more pleasant but there are positive or more pleasant but there are positive or more pleasant but there are uses of negative imagination that are uses of negative imagination that are uses of negative imagination that are not maladaptive not maladaptive not maladaptive if you Think about, for example, all of if you Think about, for example, all of if you Think about, for example, all of the dystopian novels that people write. the dystopian novels that people write. the dystopian novels that people write. It's not that those are damaging. It's not that those are damaging. It's not that those are damaging. They're actually ways for us to explore They're actually ways for us to explore They're actually ways for us to explore what might happen to us if we go down a what might happen to us if we go down a what might happen to us if we go down a path. You know, 1984, path. You know, 1984, path. You know, 1984, that book was about a warning to us that book was about a warning to us that book was about a warning to us about how we could fall into getting about how we could fall into getting about how we could fall into getting lost. And all of us can get lost. That lost. And all of us can get lost. That lost. And all of us can get lost. That serves an adaptive purpose. And even serves an adaptive purpose. And even serves an adaptive purpose. And even some of your own negative imagination some of your own negative imagination some of your own negative imagination serves an adaptive purpose. You know, serves an adaptive purpose. You know, serves an adaptive purpose. You know, you do not want to cross the street you do not want to cross the street you do not want to cross the street against the light because you can kind against the light because you can kind against the light because you can kind of imagine getting hit by a bus. You of imagine getting hit by a bus. You of imagine getting hit by a bus. You know, you don't want to test that, know, you don't want to test that, know, you don't want to test that, right? You want to test it in your right? You want to test it in your right? You want to test it in your imagination, not in reality. At the same imagination, not in reality. At the same imagination, not in reality. At the same time, maladaptive imagination time, maladaptive imagination time, maladaptive imagination tends towards the negative. Um, mostly tends towards the negative. Um, mostly tends towards the negative. Um, mostly negative imagining is what is not great negative imagining is what is not great negative imagining is what is not great for us. But there are forms of quote for us. But there are forms of quote for us. But there are forms of quote positive imagining that can also not be positive imagining that can also not be positive imagining that can also not be great for us. Imagining that I could great for us. Imagining that I could great for us. Imagining that I could cure my own breast cancer and I don't cure my own breast cancer and I don't cure my own breast cancer and I don't need to avail myself of western medicine need to avail myself of western medicine need to avail myself of western medicine or worse imagining that I have it or worse imagining that I have it or worse imagining that I have it because for some reason I wasn't because for some reason I wasn't because for some reason I wasn't imagining correctly or I wasn't thinking imagining correctly or I wasn't thinking imagining correctly or I wasn't thinking correctly. Such a terrible thing to say correctly. Such a terrible thing to say correctly. Such a terrible thing to say to someone. I mean, I have been in to someone. I mean, I have been in to someone. I mean, I have been in situations with mothers of very ill situations with mothers of very ill situations with mothers of very ill infants, and if that worked, believe me, infants, and if that worked, believe me, infants, and if that worked, believe me, they would have done it, right? They they would have done it, right? They they would have done it, right? They would have found a way. At the same would have found a way. At the same would have found a way. At the same time, if you're in a dysfunctional time, if you're in a dysfunctional time, if you're in a dysfunctional relationship, let's say, with someone relationship, let's say, with someone relationship, let's say, with someone who is truly destructive, you can who is truly destructive, you can who is truly destructive, you can imagine for many, many years that that imagine for many, many years that that imagine for many, many years that that person actually does love you and they person actually does love you and they person actually does love you and they are going to get better and they are are going to get better and they are are going to get better and they are going to follow through with their going to follow through with their going to follow through with their promises next time. That's a positive promises next time. That's a positive promises next time. That's a positive view, but it's not very helpful for you. view, but it's not very helpful for you. view, but it's not very helpful for you. It's better for you to kind of see It's better for you to kind of see It's better for you to kind of see what's going on. what's going on. what's going on. >> Back to the blame the victim aspect of >> Back to the blame the victim aspect of >> Back to the blame the victim aspect of the power of positive thinking or the power of positive thinking or the power of positive thinking or manifestation. And I'm sorry to keep manifestation. And I'm sorry to keep manifestation. And I'm sorry to keep coming back to manifestation, but it's coming back to manifestation, but it's coming back to manifestation, but it's one of my hobby horses because I I think one of my hobby horses because I I think one of my hobby horses because I I think it's so [ __ ] dangerous and and and it's so [ __ ] dangerous and and and it's so [ __ ] dangerous and and and it's disturbing that it's this popular. it's disturbing that it's this popular. it's disturbing that it's this popular. Back when I was a news reporter, I Back when I was a news reporter, I Back when I was a news reporter, I interviewed a bunch of the gurus who interviewed a bunch of the gurus who interviewed a bunch of the gurus who showed up in The Secret. The Secret, for showed up in The Secret. The Secret, for showed up in The Secret. The Secret, for those of you who are unfamiliar with it, those of you who are unfamiliar with it, those of you who are unfamiliar with it, was a massively popular DVD and book. It was a massively popular DVD and book. It was a massively popular DVD and book. It really was just about the idea that you really was just about the idea that you really was just about the idea that you can get anything you want through the can get anything you want through the can get anything you want through the power of positive thinking. And I power of positive thinking. And I power of positive thinking. And I remember asking one of these jokers, remember asking one of these jokers, remember asking one of these jokers, okay, I just covered the earthquake in okay, I just covered the earthquake in okay, I just covered the earthquake in Haiti. Are you saying that Haiti. Are you saying that Haiti. Are you saying that that city was devastated, all his babies that city was devastated, all his babies that city was devastated, all his babies died and some of them in Udo because died and some of them in Udo because died and some of them in Udo because they were thinking incorrectly? and you they were thinking incorrectly? and you they were thinking incorrectly? and you know he folded like a cheap lawn chair know he folded like a cheap lawn chair know he folded like a cheap lawn chair whichever one of these gurus I was whichever one of these gurus I was whichever one of these gurus I was interviewing at the time and and you interviewing at the time and and you interviewing at the time and and you just have to run the you know the just have to run the you know the just have to run the you know the counterfactual here to see how counterfactual here to see how counterfactual here to see how ridiculous this claim is that you can ridiculous this claim is that you can ridiculous this claim is that you can again that you can get anything you want again that you can get anything you want again that you can get anything you want through the power of positive thinking. through the power of positive thinking. through the power of positive thinking. Having said that I do think you know I Having said that I do think you know I Having said that I do think you know I did have Dr. James Dodie, who sadly is did have Dr. James Dodie, who sadly is did have Dr. James Dodie, who sadly is no longer with us on this podcast to no longer with us on this podcast to no longer with us on this podcast to talk about what I call the sort of talk about what I call the sort of talk about what I call the sort of non-bullshit version of manifestation. non-bullshit version of manifestation. non-bullshit version of manifestation. And I hear that when you're talking like And I hear that when you're talking like And I hear that when you're talking like there's this way in which in in some there's this way in which in in some there's this way in which in in some ways and and you'll correct me if I'm ways and and you'll correct me if I'm ways and and you'll correct me if I'm wrong. I think about it like we can wrong. I think about it like we can wrong. I think about it like we can through visualization or other forms of through visualization or other forms of through visualization or other forms of imagination kind of talk to our imagination kind of talk to our imagination kind of talk to our subconscious subconscious subconscious um make make the mind and body open to um make make the mind and body open to um make make the mind and body open to possibilities to fulfill our dreams in possibilities to fulfill our dreams in possibilities to fulfill our dreams in some way. Um that's what I took from some way. Um that's what I took from some way. Um that's what I took from Dodie. Is that does that land does that Dodie. Is that does that land does that Dodie. Is that does that land does that jive with how you jive with how you jive with how you >> Yeah, absolutely. I mean I I never want >> Yeah, absolutely. I mean I I never want >> Yeah, absolutely. I mean I I never want to disrespect anybody's work. Like I do to disrespect anybody's work. Like I do to disrespect anybody's work. Like I do feel like a lot of people opened their feel like a lot of people opened their feel like a lot of people opened their mind when they read The Secret. It was mind when they read The Secret. It was mind when they read The Secret. It was to me oversimplified and you know went to me oversimplified and you know went to me oversimplified and you know went way too far but there were people who way too far but there were people who way too far but there were people who were like wait a minute were like wait a minute were like wait a minute >> laughing because I want I want to >> laughing because I want I want to >> laughing because I want I want to disrespect that word. disrespect that word. disrespect that word. >> I know. I know. I hear you. [laughter] >> I know. I know. I hear you. [laughter] >> I know. I know. I hear you. [laughter] But you know at the same time sometimes But you know at the same time sometimes But you know at the same time sometimes you know Arthur C. Clark is our namesake you know Arthur C. Clark is our namesake you know Arthur C. Clark is our namesake at the Arthur C. Clark Center for Human at the Arthur C. Clark Center for Human at the Arthur C. Clark Center for Human Imagination and he said sometimes to Imagination and he said sometimes to Imagination and he said sometimes to find the limits of the possible you have find the limits of the possible you have find the limits of the possible you have to go beyond them a little into the to go beyond them a little into the to go beyond them a little into the impossible. And this is again where impossible. And this is again where impossible. And this is again where mindfulness comes in is another good mindfulness comes in is another good mindfulness comes in is another good quote that I just love is some truths quote that I just love is some truths quote that I just love is some truths can only be found in fiction. And so can only be found in fiction. And so can only be found in fiction. And so when we bring mindfulness to our when we bring mindfulness to our when we bring mindfulness to our imagination we can say look imagination imagination we can say look imagination imagination we can say look imagination is a realm where definitely everything is a realm where definitely everything is a realm where definitely everything is not accurate. In fact, accuracy is is not accurate. In fact, accuracy is is not accurate. In fact, accuracy is sort of irrelevant in the territory of sort of irrelevant in the territory of sort of irrelevant in the territory of imagination. What we want to do is say, imagination. What we want to do is say, imagination. What we want to do is say, does the imagination hold value for us? does the imagination hold value for us? does the imagination hold value for us? Does it hold information for us that we Does it hold information for us that we Does it hold information for us that we can't get in any other way? And so can't get in any other way? And so can't get in any other way? And so another thing that is a great research another thing that is a great research another thing that is a great research finding is so there's this research on finding is so there's this research on finding is so there's this research on storytelling and when somebody is storytelling and when somebody is storytelling and when somebody is telling a story to a group of people and telling a story to a group of people and telling a story to a group of people and they've done this with doing the EEG of they've done this with doing the EEG of they've done this with doing the EEG of the storyteller and they're getting the the storyteller and they're getting the the storyteller and they're getting the EEG of the people in the room when EEG of the people in the room when EEG of the people in the room when they're telling them information they they're telling them information they they're telling them information they don't really get very entrained like the don't really get very entrained like the don't really get very entrained like the people's mirror neurons are not people's mirror neurons are not people's mirror neurons are not activating and you know they may be activating and you know they may be activating and you know they may be learning conceptually but they're sort learning conceptually but they're sort learning conceptually but they're sort of like okay I'm processing what you're of like okay I'm processing what you're of like okay I'm processing what you're saying. When people are telling a story, saying. When people are telling a story, saying. When people are telling a story, it's more like the mirror neurons are it's more like the mirror neurons are it's more like the mirror neurons are getting activated and they're learning getting activated and they're learning getting activated and they're learning in a different way when they hear a in a different way when they hear a in a different way when they hear a story as opposed to just information. Of story as opposed to just information. Of story as opposed to just information. Of course, the great teachers know this. course, the great teachers know this. course, the great teachers know this. They tell, you know, what Jesus used They tell, you know, what Jesus used They tell, you know, what Jesus used parables, right? We know that telling a parables, right? We know that telling a parables, right? We know that telling a story captures the imagination and story captures the imagination and story captures the imagination and teaches people in a different way than teaches people in a different way than teaches people in a different way than giving them information. And so it's giving them information. And so it's giving them information. And so it's important for us to I think realize why important for us to I think realize why important for us to I think realize why do we go to movies? Why do we go see do we go to movies? Why do we go see do we go to movies? Why do we go see art? Why do we watch Shakespeare over art? Why do we watch Shakespeare over art? Why do we watch Shakespeare over and over and over again? Partly and over and over again? Partly and over and over again? Partly entertainment, partly distraction, entertainment, partly distraction, entertainment, partly distraction, partly, you know, respecting a craft. partly, you know, respecting a craft. partly, you know, respecting a craft. But we also go because those things are But we also go because those things are But we also go because those things are teaching us things about life that are teaching us things about life that are teaching us things about life that are ineffable. They can't be said in logical ineffable. They can't be said in logical ineffable. They can't be said in logical linear language, poetry. These things linear language, poetry. These things linear language, poetry. These things hold truths for us in and they come out hold truths for us in and they come out hold truths for us in and they come out of that imaginative realm. of that imaginative realm. of that imaginative realm. >> Have you sighing [laughter] >> Have you sighing [laughter] >> Have you sighing [laughter] only? Yes, I I I think everything you're only? Yes, I I I think everything you're only? Yes, I I I think everything you're saying is really interesting and um you saying is really interesting and um you saying is really interesting and um you know, we only disagree on uh my uh know, we only disagree on uh my uh know, we only disagree on uh my uh overabundance of desire to disrespect overabundance of desire to disrespect overabundance of desire to disrespect the um the the secret people before we the um the the secret people before we the um the the secret people before we continue marching through the Vista continue marching through the Vista continue marching through the Vista acronym and and the various ways in acronym and and the various ways in acronym and and the various ways in which we can um work with our which we can um work with our which we can um work with our imagination to to benefit our ourselves imagination to to benefit our ourselves imagination to to benefit our ourselves and others. Um just a question about our and others. Um just a question about our and others. Um just a question about our modern world which is so focused on modern world which is so focused on modern world which is so focused on perfection, productivi productivity, perfection, productivi productivity, perfection, productivi productivity, optimization, optimization, optimization, checking things off our to-do list. And checking things off our to-do list. And checking things off our to-do list. And I don't say this with any judgment I don't say this with any judgment I don't say this with any judgment because I do all of this stuff um because I do all of this stuff um because I do all of this stuff um myself. Can the way we're living now be myself. Can the way we're living now be myself. Can the way we're living now be a a hindrance when it comes to accessing a a hindrance when it comes to accessing a a hindrance when it comes to accessing and and utilizing our imagination? and and utilizing our imagination? and and utilizing our imagination? >> Well, of course I'm biased, right? But I >> Well, of course I'm biased, right? But I >> Well, of course I'm biased, right? But I would say absolutely yes. I mean, how would say absolutely yes. I mean, how would say absolutely yes. I mean, how many multiplechoice exams did you take many multiplechoice exams did you take many multiplechoice exams did you take in your K through 12 education, showing in your K through 12 education, showing in your K through 12 education, showing you that there were only kind of four you that there were only kind of four you that there were only kind of four possible answers and only one that was possible answers and only one that was possible answers and only one that was right? Okay, that's true for some very right? Okay, that's true for some very right? Okay, that's true for some very determined aspects of our lives. But determined aspects of our lives. But determined aspects of our lives. But most of the issues that we all face in most of the issues that we all face in most of the issues that we all face in our everyday lives, in our families, in our everyday lives, in our families, in our everyday lives, in our families, in business, and health care and medicine, business, and health care and medicine, business, and health care and medicine, there aren't only four possible answers. there aren't only four possible answers. there aren't only four possible answers. And there's not even only one right one. And there's not even only one right one. And there's not even only one right one. And so we've all almost been taught to And so we've all almost been taught to And so we've all almost been taught to prematurely constrain ourselves to only prematurely constrain ourselves to only prematurely constrain ourselves to only what is immediately applicable and what is immediately applicable and what is immediately applicable and productive and usable right now and to productive and usable right now and to productive and usable right now and to edit out anything else and to be in a edit out anything else and to be in a edit out anything else and to be in a real hurry when we're doing these real hurry when we're doing these real hurry when we're doing these things. And intelligence in some ways is things. And intelligence in some ways is things. And intelligence in some ways is has been defined by the ability to race has been defined by the ability to race has been defined by the ability to race to a to an applicable solution. But I to a to an applicable solution. But I to a to an applicable solution. But I would warn us against only living in would warn us against only living in would warn us against only living in that domain because that domain because that domain because there are ways of knowing that go beyond there are ways of knowing that go beyond there are ways of knowing that go beyond those kind of highly categorized very those kind of highly categorized very those kind of highly categorized very simplistic simplistic simplistic uh reductionistic deterministic ways of uh reductionistic deterministic ways of uh reductionistic deterministic ways of knowing. And this is what our greatest knowing. And this is what our greatest knowing. And this is what our greatest inventors um Einstein inventors um Einstein inventors um Einstein you know uh Tesla you know these people you know uh Tesla you know these people you know uh Tesla you know these people were thinking way outside of the box. were thinking way outside of the box. were thinking way outside of the box. Galileo and even people that we know in Galileo and even people that we know in Galileo and even people that we know in our everyday lives. You can probably our everyday lives. You can probably our everyday lives. You can probably think of someone in your life now that think of someone in your life now that think of someone in your life now that somehow always has a greater perspective somehow always has a greater perspective somehow always has a greater perspective and they always bring in some kind of and they always bring in some kind of and they always bring in some kind of brand new idea or a brand new way of brand new idea or a brand new way of brand new idea or a brand new way of looking at things that moves the looking at things that moves the looking at things that moves the conversation forward. So what we know conversation forward. So what we know conversation forward. So what we know about imagination is it's different from about imagination is it's different from about imagination is it's different from creativity. And here's how. Imagination creativity. And here's how. Imagination creativity. And here's how. Imagination is spending time in a field of is spending time in a field of is spending time in a field of possibilities, opening yourself up to possibilities, opening yourself up to possibilities, opening yourself up to adjacent possibles, right? To even far adjacent possibles, right? To even far adjacent possibles, right? To even far possibles and allowing yourself to spend possibles and allowing yourself to spend possibles and allowing yourself to spend quite a bit of time there so that quite a bit of time there so that quite a bit of time there so that different things can come in that bypass different things can come in that bypass different things can come in that bypass the previous categories or the rigid the previous categories or the rigid the previous categories or the rigid meaning systems that we've created in meaning systems that we've created in meaning systems that we've created in our lives. This can happen in a our lives. This can happen in a our lives. This can happen in a relationship and it can happen at a relationship and it can happen at a relationship and it can happen at a paradigm level and everything in paradigm level and everything in paradigm level and everything in between. And so the rush to make between. And so the rush to make between. And so the rush to make something productive something productive something productive to move those possibilities into what to move those possibilities into what to move those possibilities into what philosophers of imagination called philosophers of imagination called philosophers of imagination called constraint. Not a bad thing. Constraint constraint. Not a bad thing. Constraint constraint. Not a bad thing. Constraint is actually a good thing because when we is actually a good thing because when we is actually a good thing because when we move into constraint, which means okay, move into constraint, which means okay, move into constraint, which means okay, but what do we actually have the tools but what do we actually have the tools but what do we actually have the tools for and what's actually feasible and for and what's actually feasible and for and what's actually feasible and what could happen in this setting. When what could happen in this setting. When what could happen in this setting. When we race to that too quickly, we leave we race to that too quickly, we leave we race to that too quickly, we leave out a ton of possibilities that if we out a ton of possibilities that if we out a ton of possibilities that if we were to spend more time with them, we were to spend more time with them, we were to spend more time with them, we might realize, oh wait, that could might realize, oh wait, that could might realize, oh wait, that could actually be feasible in a situation that actually be feasible in a situation that actually be feasible in a situation that could be applied. So the encouragement could be applied. So the encouragement could be applied. So the encouragement is to spend more time in the open field is to spend more time in the open field is to spend more time in the open field of possibilities and this moves into of possibilities and this moves into of possibilities and this moves into vista right ideiating sensing vista right ideiating sensing vista right ideiating sensing transforming and applying. See if we can transforming and applying. See if we can transforming and applying. See if we can move it into creativity. The conditions move it into creativity. The conditions move it into creativity. The conditions that foster creativity are not that open that foster creativity are not that open that foster creativity are not that open hugemindedness. It's actually how can I hugemindedness. It's actually how can I hugemindedness. It's actually how can I make something that will actually work. make something that will actually work. make something that will actually work. And that's how we move from imagination And that's how we move from imagination And that's how we move from imagination into creativity. So places like Pixar, into creativity. So places like Pixar, into creativity. So places like Pixar, Google, Apple, they've all come to the Google, Apple, they've all come to the Google, Apple, they've all come to the conclusion that they have to give many conclusion that they have to give many conclusion that they have to give many of their employees time to just imagine of their employees time to just imagine of their employees time to just imagine so that they can come up with outside so that they can come up with outside so that they can come up with outside the box solutions and not be kind of the box solutions and not be kind of the box solutions and not be kind of harnessed into a productive mindset harnessed into a productive mindset harnessed into a productive mindset every minute of every day. every minute of every day. every minute of every day. >> Makes sense. uh and every time I >> Makes sense. uh and every time I >> Makes sense. uh and every time I you know give myself time to go on you know give myself time to go on you know give myself time to go on meditation retreat or take a walk or meditation retreat or take a walk or meditation retreat or take a walk or whatever that's or meditate that's when whatever that's or meditate that's when whatever that's or meditate that's when the best stuff happens um as opposed to the best stuff happens um as opposed to the best stuff happens um as opposed to when I'm I'm trying to bulldoze my way when I'm I'm trying to bulldoze my way when I'm I'm trying to bulldoze my way towards solutions. towards solutions. towards solutions. >> Just take us back through the rest of >> Just take us back through the rest of >> Just take us back through the rest of Vista so briefly just so we know what it Vista so briefly just so we know what it Vista so briefly just so we know what it is. is. is. >> Yeah. So vista visualizing we've talked >> Yeah. So vista visualizing we've talked >> Yeah. So vista visualizing we've talked about ideiating this is things like about ideiating this is things like about ideiating this is things like thought experiments or imagining thought experiments or imagining thought experiments or imagining counterfactuals or imagining ways that counterfactuals or imagining ways that counterfactuals or imagining ways that things could be different and using things could be different and using things could be different and using those thought experiments to explore the those thought experiments to explore the those thought experiments to explore the problem that you're trying to solve. problem that you're trying to solve. problem that you're trying to solve. Right? So what you're doing is changing Right? So what you're doing is changing Right? So what you're doing is changing the way you think temporarily, the way you think temporarily, the way you think temporarily, letting go of some of the constraints letting go of some of the constraints letting go of some of the constraints for a little bit and saying, "But what for a little bit and saying, "But what for a little bit and saying, "But what if? What if I was able to do this if? What if I was able to do this if? What if I was able to do this without anxiety? What if I was able to without anxiety? What if I was able to without anxiety? What if I was able to have a different um view on things? have a different um view on things? have a different um view on things? I'll share with you a difficult example I'll share with you a difficult example I'll share with you a difficult example from my life. Um I'm in recovery from from my life. Um I'm in recovery from from my life. Um I'm in recovery from alcoholism and when I was actively alcoholism and when I was actively alcoholism and when I was actively practicing alcoholic, my imagination got practicing alcoholic, my imagination got practicing alcoholic, my imagination got very very very compressed and narrowed. very very very compressed and narrowed. very very very compressed and narrowed. And this happens for people in And this happens for people in And this happens for people in addiction. It happens for people in addiction. It happens for people in addiction. It happens for people in depression. It happens for people in depression. It happens for people in depression. It happens for people in anxiety where the possibilities get very anxiety where the possibilities get very anxiety where the possibilities get very small. So you can drink or you can feel small. So you can drink or you can feel small. So you can drink or you can feel terrible. Those were the two terrible. Those were the two terrible. Those were the two possibilities. And my choice was often possibilities. And my choice was often possibilities. And my choice was often to drink which became untenable over to drink which became untenable over to drink which became untenable over time because it's you know extremely time because it's you know extremely time because it's you know extremely harmful. Then my imagination told me if harmful. Then my imagination told me if harmful. Then my imagination told me if you tell anyone that you need help you you tell anyone that you need help you you tell anyone that you need help you are going to be blackmarked forever. you are going to be blackmarked forever. you are going to be blackmarked forever. you know, you're going to be seen as know, you're going to be seen as know, you're going to be seen as irretrievably irretrievably irretrievably impaired. And so the the main thing you impaired. And so the the main thing you impaired. And so the the main thing you need to do is make sure that you never need to do is make sure that you never need to do is make sure that you never let anyone know how bad this is. That let anyone know how bad this is. That let anyone know how bad this is. That became a year at least of self- torture became a year at least of self- torture became a year at least of self- torture and not functioning well, not showing up and not functioning well, not showing up and not functioning well, not showing up how I wanted to be, and finally hitting how I wanted to be, and finally hitting how I wanted to be, and finally hitting a place where out of sheer desperation, a place where out of sheer desperation, a place where out of sheer desperation, I called a coworker and said, "I can't I called a coworker and said, "I can't I called a coworker and said, "I can't stop drinking." And they came to my stop drinking." And they came to my stop drinking." And they came to my house and said, "Oh my god, we love you house and said, "Oh my god, we love you house and said, "Oh my god, we love you so much. Take the next month off. Find so much. Take the next month off. Find so much. Take the next month off. Find treatment. Don't worry. We've got treatment. Don't worry. We've got treatment. Don't worry. We've got everything covered." everything covered." everything covered." I mean, that was a year of me imagining I mean, that was a year of me imagining I mean, that was a year of me imagining that the response would be, "We hate that the response would be, "We hate that the response would be, "We hate you. You're terrible. You're a huge you. You're terrible. You're a huge you. You're terrible. You're a huge failure." When the real response was, failure." When the real response was, failure." When the real response was, "Oh my gosh, please take care of "Oh my gosh, please take care of "Oh my gosh, please take care of yourself. We've got it covered." yourself. We've got it covered." yourself. We've got it covered." That's what I mean about opening up your That's what I mean about opening up your That's what I mean about opening up your imagination. And we don't want to wait imagination. And we don't want to wait imagination. And we don't want to wait until we're desperate and at the very until we're desperate and at the very until we're desperate and at the very end of our rope to open up our end of our rope to open up our end of our rope to open up our imagination and say, "Is there a imagination and say, "Is there a imagination and say, "Is there a different solution for my marriage that different solution for my marriage that different solution for my marriage that feels like it's gone dead? Is there a feels like it's gone dead? Is there a feels like it's gone dead? Is there a different solution for my kid who won't different solution for my kid who won't different solution for my kid who won't talk to me? Is there a different talk to me? Is there a different talk to me? Is there a different solution that I can imagine as opposed solution that I can imagine as opposed solution that I can imagine as opposed to looping around the same thought to looping around the same thought to looping around the same thought patterns over and over and over and over patterns over and over and over and over patterns over and over and over and over and not getting anywhere? and not getting anywhere? and not getting anywhere? >> I'm sorry to hear about that struggle >> I'm sorry to hear about that struggle >> I'm sorry to hear about that struggle you had. I'm very brave of you to talk you had. I'm very brave of you to talk you had. I'm very brave of you to talk about it here. I've never heard anybody about it here. I've never heard anybody about it here. I've never heard anybody call themselves a practicing alcoholic. call themselves a practicing alcoholic. call themselves a practicing alcoholic. I kind of like that phrase. I kind of like that phrase. I kind of like that phrase. >> Oh, yeah. No, I was definitely actively >> Oh, yeah. No, I was definitely actively >> Oh, yeah. No, I was definitely actively practicing. practicing. practicing. >> Yeah. Well, I'm glad you're on the other >> Yeah. Well, I'm glad you're on the other >> Yeah. Well, I'm glad you're on the other side of it. So, so that's that's side of it. So, so that's that's side of it. So, so that's that's ideating um now made vividly clear to us ideating um now made vividly clear to us ideating um now made vividly clear to us through your willingness to be through your willingness to be through your willingness to be vulnerable. Um remind me what is the S vulnerable. Um remind me what is the S vulnerable. Um remind me what is the S in Vista? in Vista? in Vista? >> S is sensing. And so one of the things >> S is sensing. And so one of the things >> S is sensing. And so one of the things that can really make your imagination so that can really make your imagination so that can really make your imagination so much more useful to you is to move much more useful to you is to move much more useful to you is to move beyond the visual as we were talking beyond the visual as we were talking beyond the visual as we were talking about and sense into about and sense into about and sense into how might it feel different if I did how might it feel different if I did how might it feel different if I did this in a different way. How might it this in a different way. How might it this in a different way. How might it feel differently in my body? How might feel differently in my body? How might feel differently in my body? How might it feel different in my emotions? How it feel different in my emotions? How it feel different in my emotions? How might my heart uh my my my might my heart uh my my my might my heart uh my my my state of being be different? And so you state of being be different? And so you state of being be different? And so you can imagine a situation that is not can imagine a situation that is not can imagine a situation that is not happening right now, maybe one that you happening right now, maybe one that you happening right now, maybe one that you want to happen, and instead of just want to happen, and instead of just want to happen, and instead of just visualizing it or ideulating about it, visualizing it or ideulating about it, visualizing it or ideulating about it, put your whole entire body into the put your whole entire body into the put your whole entire body into the situation. I'll give you a good couple situation. I'll give you a good couple situation. I'll give you a good couple of examples. One is a colleague of mine of examples. One is a colleague of mine of examples. One is a colleague of mine named Bob Beard is at the Center for the named Bob Beard is at the Center for the named Bob Beard is at the Center for the Science of Imagination at Arizona State Science of Imagination at Arizona State Science of Imagination at Arizona State University and he's working with um University and he's working with um University and he's working with um veterans who often come out of their veterans who often come out of their veterans who often come out of their time in the military feeling like they time in the military feeling like they time in the military feeling like they have limited possibilities like their have limited possibilities like their have limited possibilities like their identity was their military life. They identity was their military life. They identity was their military life. They may have experienced a ton of trauma. may have experienced a ton of trauma. may have experienced a ton of trauma. They're carrying that with them. They They're carrying that with them. They They're carrying that with them. They don't really know where to go next. So don't really know where to go next. So don't really know where to go next. So what he did was paired them with artists what he did was paired them with artists what he did was paired them with artists and they sat down and started imagining and they sat down and started imagining and they sat down and started imagining possibilities for their new life that possibilities for their new life that possibilities for their new life that were unedited. Like let's not think were unedited. Like let's not think were unedited. Like let's not think right now about exactly how this is right now about exactly how this is right now about exactly how this is going to happen. Let's just imagine going to happen. Let's just imagine going to happen. Let's just imagine yourself in a new life where you are the yourself in a new life where you are the yourself in a new life where you are the kind of person you want to be. You're kind of person you want to be. You're kind of person you want to be. You're showing up. You're in the activities and showing up. You're in the activities and showing up. You're in the activities and connections you want to have. The artist connections you want to have. The artist connections you want to have. The artist sketches it out for them and creates art sketches it out for them and creates art sketches it out for them and creates art pieces that the veterans then kind of pieces that the veterans then kind of pieces that the veterans then kind of use as guideposts or a map for how they use as guideposts or a map for how they use as guideposts or a map for how they want to move into the future. It's not want to move into the future. It's not want to move into the future. It's not that they create a carbon copy future of that they create a carbon copy future of that they create a carbon copy future of what the artist created or what they saw what the artist created or what they saw what the artist created or what they saw in their minds, but it sure gives them a in their minds, but it sure gives them a in their minds, but it sure gives them a sense of hope and optimism and a sense of hope and optimism and a sense of hope and optimism and a compass. What is my true north and how compass. What is my true north and how compass. What is my true north and how can I orient all of my decisions around can I orient all of my decisions around can I orient all of my decisions around that true north? It helps a lot if they that true north? It helps a lot if they that true north? It helps a lot if they put themselves into the situation. put themselves into the situation. put themselves into the situation. Another example is we have used virtual Another example is we have used virtual Another example is we have used virtual reality quite a bit in our studies. Uh reality quite a bit in our studies. Uh reality quite a bit in our studies. Uh virtual reality for mindfulness virtual reality for mindfulness virtual reality for mindfulness training, virtual reality for awe training, virtual reality for awe training, virtual reality for awe induction. And during COVID, my induction. And during COVID, my induction. And during COVID, my colleagues Patrick Coleman and Origami colleagues Patrick Coleman and Origami colleagues Patrick Coleman and Origami Air and the Arthur C. Clark Center for Air and the Arthur C. Clark Center for Air and the Arthur C. Clark Center for Human Imagination, everybody was at Human Imagination, everybody was at Human Imagination, everybody was at home, but they had their VR headsets. home, but they had their VR headsets. home, but they had their VR headsets. And so they had youth from a number of And so they had youth from a number of And so they had youth from a number of different countries who would join in different countries who would join in different countries who would join in their VR into an airship that was flying their VR into an airship that was flying their VR into an airship that was flying over something like the Pacific over something like the Pacific over something like the Pacific Northwest and they had conversations in Northwest and they had conversations in Northwest and they had conversations in their avatars with each other about what their avatars with each other about what their avatars with each other about what kind of world they wanted to build in kind of world they wanted to build in kind of world they wanted to build in the future. the future. the future. Number one, many of these young people Number one, many of these young people Number one, many of these young people said, "No one's ever asked me what kind said, "No one's ever asked me what kind said, "No one's ever asked me what kind of future I want to build on on Earth on of future I want to build on on Earth on of future I want to build on on Earth on in our world, in our society." And so in our world, in our society." And so in our world, in our society." And so they had to really think about it. They they had to really think about it. They they had to really think about it. They shared it and then the VR artists were shared it and then the VR artists were shared it and then the VR artists were as they shared creating that future. And as they shared creating that future. And as they shared creating that future. And eventually [snorts] the airship landed eventually [snorts] the airship landed eventually [snorts] the airship landed and when the avatars came out of it, and when the avatars came out of it, and when the avatars came out of it, this is all in a VR headset. They saw this is all in a VR headset. They saw this is all in a VR headset. They saw what they had imagined. The village what they had imagined. The village what they had imagined. The village square, a place where elders were square, a place where elders were square, a place where elders were respected, a place where art could be respected, a place where art could be respected, a place where art could be made and shared, a redwood grove that pe made and shared, a redwood grove that pe made and shared, a redwood grove that pe where people could go to reflect and be where people could go to reflect and be where people could go to reflect and be mindful. It was incredible, you know, mindful. It was incredible, you know, mindful. It was incredible, you know, that the embodied entry into that kind that the embodied entry into that kind that the embodied entry into that kind of place, whether it's in VR, in art, or of place, whether it's in VR, in art, or of place, whether it's in VR, in art, or even just in your imagination, has a even just in your imagination, has a even just in your imagination, has a whole different um power in helping with whole different um power in helping with whole different um power in helping with you being able to hope, have optimism, you being able to hope, have optimism, you being able to hope, have optimism, have a direction, and even create some have a direction, and even create some have a direction, and even create some plans about how you're going to get plans about how you're going to get plans about how you're going to get there. very practically on the sensing there. very practically on the sensing there. very practically on the sensing part of Vista, like how would I do that part of Vista, like how would I do that part of Vista, like how would I do that in my everyday life in order to to, you in my everyday life in order to to, you in my everyday life in order to to, you know, access this? know, access this? know, access this? >> Well, I was listening to your podcast a >> Well, I was listening to your podcast a >> Well, I was listening to your podcast a while back and you talked about fear of while back and you talked about fear of while back and you talked about fear of going into an MRI. And so that would be going into an MRI. And so that would be going into an MRI. And so that would be a really good example of being able to a really good example of being able to a really good example of being able to lie down, imagine with all of your lie down, imagine with all of your lie down, imagine with all of your embodiment what it will be like to lay embodiment what it will be like to lay embodiment what it will be like to lay on the table, to be rolled back, to have on the table, to be rolled back, to have on the table, to be rolled back, to have the huge sounds. doing that over and the huge sounds. doing that over and the huge sounds. doing that over and over and over again, but feeling over and over again, but feeling over and over again, but feeling yourself in it, relaxed, calm, grounded, yourself in it, relaxed, calm, grounded, yourself in it, relaxed, calm, grounded, even fearful, but being able to witness even fearful, but being able to witness even fearful, but being able to witness the fear and allow it to be there and the fear and allow it to be there and the fear and allow it to be there and return to the breath. Doing that over return to the breath. Doing that over return to the breath. Doing that over and over and over and over again in your and over and over and over again in your and over and over and over again in your imagination imagination imagination is in some sense a form of exposure is in some sense a form of exposure is in some sense a form of exposure therapy, I guess you could call it. When therapy, I guess you could call it. When therapy, I guess you could call it. When you do go into the situation, no shame you do go into the situation, no shame you do go into the situation, no shame if it's like, "Sorry, still panicked. if it's like, "Sorry, still panicked. if it's like, "Sorry, still panicked. still don't want to go in, but it's much still don't want to go in, but it's much still don't want to go in, but it's much more likely that you'll be able to do it more likely that you'll be able to do it more likely that you'll be able to do it in a way that you want to do it if in a way that you want to do it if in a way that you want to do it if you've imagined it all that time. You you've imagined it all that time. You you've imagined it all that time. You know, as I say, it's influential. It's know, as I say, it's influential. It's know, as I say, it's influential. It's it's not something that's going to cure it's not something that's going to cure it's not something that's going to cure everything. But there is now a ton of everything. But there is now a ton of everything. But there is now a ton of exposure therapy, using imagination, exposure therapy, using imagination, exposure therapy, using imagination, using virtual reality for people who using virtual reality for people who using virtual reality for people who have trouble with that kind of detail in have trouble with that kind of detail in have trouble with that kind of detail in their imagination. their imagination. their imagination. using graded exposure therapy for fear using graded exposure therapy for fear using graded exposure therapy for fear of flying, fear of spiders, fear of all of flying, fear of spiders, fear of all of flying, fear of spiders, fear of all kinds of things. kinds of things. kinds of things. >> Walk us through T and and A and then I >> Walk us through T and and A and then I >> Walk us through T and and A and then I want to ask you about some very specific want to ask you about some very specific want to ask you about some very specific use cases. use cases. use cases. >> Yeah. So very quickly T and A are >> Yeah. So very quickly T and A are >> Yeah. So very quickly T and A are transforming and applying and this is transforming and applying and this is transforming and applying and this is where we get into the realm of where we get into the realm of where we get into the realm of creativity. So you've visualized, you've creativity. So you've visualized, you've creativity. So you've visualized, you've ideiated, you've sensed into it. Then ideiated, you've sensed into it. Then ideiated, you've sensed into it. Then it's like okay can I take these imagined it's like okay can I take these imagined it's like okay can I take these imagined scenes and transform them into something scenes and transform them into something scenes and transform them into something that's actually real or actually helpful that's actually real or actually helpful that's actually real or actually helpful in my life. Also, people have had some in my life. Also, people have had some in my life. Also, people have had some very interesting experiences where they very interesting experiences where they very interesting experiences where they have done imagination exercises going have done imagination exercises going have done imagination exercises going back in time to a very difficult part of back in time to a very difficult part of back in time to a very difficult part of their lives and meeting themselves in their lives and meeting themselves in their lives and meeting themselves in that part of their lives and saying, that part of their lives and saying, that part of their lives and saying, "Hey kiddo, I know that it's really, "Hey kiddo, I know that it's really, "Hey kiddo, I know that it's really, really hard right now and I'm so sorry really hard right now and I'm so sorry really hard right now and I'm so sorry you're going through this. Just know you're going through this. Just know you're going through this. Just know that you're going to make it through that you're going to make it through that you're going to make it through this. You are going to make it through this. You are going to make it through this. You are going to make it through it and I'm here in your future. I've got it and I'm here in your future. I've got it and I'm here in your future. I've got you. I'll see you when you get there. you. I'll see you when you get there. you. I'll see you when you get there. Okay. It obviously doesn't change the Okay. It obviously doesn't change the Okay. It obviously doesn't change the past, but wow, it really changes past, but wow, it really changes past, but wow, it really changes somebody's feeling about the past. And somebody's feeling about the past. And somebody's feeling about the past. And that change in perspective and feeling that change in perspective and feeling that change in perspective and feeling helps them live into the future in a way helps them live into the future in a way helps them live into the future in a way that's not hampered or driven by their that's not hampered or driven by their that's not hampered or driven by their past. That's a great experiment done by past. That's a great experiment done by past. That's a great experiment done by colleagues Julia Mossbridge and Michael colleagues Julia Mossbridge and Michael colleagues Julia Mossbridge and Michael Shapiro. They also have people go into Shapiro. They also have people go into Shapiro. They also have people go into their future and meet their future self their future and meet their future self their future and meet their future self and say, you know, this is your and say, you know, this is your and say, you know, this is your idealized future self. It's somebody idealized future self. It's somebody idealized future self. It's somebody who's embodying the way that you want to who's embodying the way that you want to who's embodying the way that you want to be in the world in the future. And be in the world in the future. And be in the world in the future. And having their future self kind of be having their future self kind of be having their future self kind of be like, hey, man, I'm up here. You're like, hey, man, I'm up here. You're like, hey, man, I'm up here. You're going to do great. Um, here's a couple going to do great. Um, here's a couple going to do great. Um, here's a couple tips for how you get to where I am right tips for how you get to where I am right tips for how you get to where I am right now. Those imagination exercises seem so now. Those imagination exercises seem so now. Those imagination exercises seem so like such a fantasy, but when you talk like such a fantasy, but when you talk like such a fantasy, but when you talk to these folks, they're like, "Ever to these folks, they're like, "Ever to these folks, they're like, "Ever since I met that future self, I know since I met that future self, I know since I met that future self, I know where I'm going. I know how to make where I'm going. I know how to make where I'm going. I know how to make decisions. I just ask myself, is it decisions. I just ask myself, is it decisions. I just ask myself, is it taking me closer to that future self or taking me closer to that future self or taking me closer to that future self or is it taking me further away from it? is it taking me further away from it? is it taking me further away from it? >> Did we cover the T and the A there? >> Did we cover the T and the A there? >> Did we cover the T and the A there? >> Yeah. So, transforming, that's what >> Yeah. So, transforming, that's what >> Yeah. So, transforming, that's what transforming is. And applying is transforming is. And applying is transforming is. And applying is bringing it into the world. You know, bringing it into the world. You know, bringing it into the world. You know, whatever you imagined, even if it's whatever you imagined, even if it's whatever you imagined, even if it's something that can't happen right now, something that can't happen right now, something that can't happen right now, can you sketch it? Can you diagram it? can you sketch it? Can you diagram it? can you sketch it? Can you diagram it? Can you sort of write it down? Can you Can you sort of write it down? Can you Can you sort of write it down? Can you create a poem about it? Can you create a create a poem about it? Can you create a create a poem about it? Can you create a painting about it? Can you do something? painting about it? Can you do something? painting about it? Can you do something? or can you actually create a project? or can you actually create a project? or can you actually create a project? Can you create a podcast? Can you create Can you create a podcast? Can you create Can you create a podcast? Can you create a paper? Can you create an organization a paper? Can you create an organization a paper? Can you create an organization that is going to actually make change that is going to actually make change that is going to actually make change based on what you learned through the based on what you learned through the based on what you learned through the earlier parts of Vista? >> Okay. So, let's talk about how to apply >> Okay. So, let's talk about how to apply our capacity to imagine in some very our capacity to imagine in some very our capacity to imagine in some very specific uh areas of our lives. you uh specific uh areas of our lives. you uh specific uh areas of our lives. you uh write a great deal in your book uh about write a great deal in your book uh about write a great deal in your book uh about using imagination to deal with using imagination to deal with using imagination to deal with catastrophizing. catastrophizing. catastrophizing. Um so let's get super granular and Um so let's get super granular and Um so let's get super granular and specific on how we can do that because I specific on how we can do that because I specific on how we can do that because I think a lot of the people listen to the think a lot of the people listen to the think a lot of the people listen to the show including the host of the show deal show including the host of the show deal show including the host of the show deal with a lot of catastrophizing. with a lot of catastrophizing. with a lot of catastrophizing. >> Yeah. I mean pretty simply if you >> Yeah. I mean pretty simply if you >> Yeah. I mean pretty simply if you continue to catastrophize about an continue to catastrophize about an continue to catastrophize about an upcoming situation I I'm going to do a upcoming situation I I'm going to do a upcoming situation I I'm going to do a terrible job. Something terrible is terrible job. Something terrible is terrible job. Something terrible is going to happen to my child. um this is going to happen to my child. um this is going to happen to my child. um this is never going to make it. You know that never going to make it. You know that never going to make it. You know that what what I'm trying to do is never what what I'm trying to do is never what what I'm trying to do is never going to manifest itself. going to manifest itself. going to manifest itself. You can't really stop that. As you know You can't really stop that. As you know You can't really stop that. As you know from mindfulness practice, we can become from mindfulness practice, we can become from mindfulness practice, we can become aware of those thinking patterns and see aware of those thinking patterns and see aware of those thinking patterns and see them as thinking patterns and stories. them as thinking patterns and stories. them as thinking patterns and stories. But you can actually create counter But you can actually create counter But you can actually create counter stories and imagine them in great stories and imagine them in great stories and imagine them in great detail. I am going to be able to make it detail. I am going to be able to make it detail. I am going to be able to make it through this. There is going to come a through this. There is going to come a through this. There is going to come a time when my kid and I are going to be time when my kid and I are going to be time when my kid and I are going to be talking to each other again today. talking to each other again today. talking to each other again today. They're going to have a good day. They're going to have a good day. They're going to have a good day. They're not going to have a terrible They're not going to have a terrible They're not going to have a terrible day. They're not going to fall apart. day. They're not going to fall apart. day. They're not going to fall apart. And sometimes those imaginings are they And sometimes those imaginings are they And sometimes those imaginings are they hold information for you that you didn't hold information for you that you didn't hold information for you that you didn't know about before. So it's not like my know about before. So it's not like my know about before. So it's not like my kids having a super hard time. They're kids having a super hard time. They're kids having a super hard time. They're struggling a lot. Maybe they're not struggling a lot. Maybe they're not struggling a lot. Maybe they're not doing well in school. They're calling me doing well in school. They're calling me doing well in school. They're calling me saying they feel depressed. That is saying they feel depressed. That is saying they feel depressed. That is understandably terrifying and you can't understandably terrifying and you can't understandably terrifying and you can't get out of it through imagining your way get out of it through imagining your way get out of it through imagining your way out of it. But you can consider a time out of it. But you can consider a time out of it. But you can consider a time in the future when your kid is coming in the future when your kid is coming in the future when your kid is coming out of it. You're back in connection. out of it. You're back in connection. out of it. You're back in connection. They're doing well. And you might say, They're doing well. And you might say, They're doing well. And you might say, you know what, that kid, they actually you know what, that kid, they actually you know what, that kid, they actually need more structure or they need more need more structure or they need more need more structure or they need more time in nature. They need more art. They time in nature. They need more art. They time in nature. They need more art. They need more encouragement for their need more encouragement for their need more encouragement for their singing. Maybe you're someone who's singing. Maybe you're someone who's singing. Maybe you're someone who's like, "Dude, you're never going to make like, "Dude, you're never going to make like, "Dude, you're never going to make a living singing. Like, it's not a good a living singing. Like, it's not a good a living singing. Like, it's not a good idea for me to encourage you to sing." idea for me to encourage you to sing." idea for me to encourage you to sing." But through your imagination, you say, But through your imagination, you say, But through your imagination, you say, "You know what? It actually is a good "You know what? It actually is a good "You know what? It actually is a good idea for me to encourage them to sing idea for me to encourage them to sing idea for me to encourage them to sing because when do I see my kid come alive? because when do I see my kid come alive? because when do I see my kid come alive? It's when they're singing. Let me put It's when they're singing. Let me put It's when they're singing. Let me put more effort and energy into that." more effort and energy into that." more effort and energy into that." I want to share too a great form of I want to share too a great form of I want to share too a great form of therapy called geek therapy that I write therapy called geek therapy that I write therapy called geek therapy that I write about in the book where kids who are about in the book where kids who are about in the book where kids who are deeply into their fandoms, deeply into deeply into their fandoms, deeply into deeply into their fandoms, deeply into their screens, you know, obsessed with their screens, you know, obsessed with their screens, you know, obsessed with Fortnite or, you know, the world of Fortnite or, you know, the world of Fortnite or, you know, the world of Harry Potter, these geek therapists will Harry Potter, these geek therapists will Harry Potter, these geek therapists will talk to them about their fandom, and talk to them about their fandom, and talk to them about their fandom, and they'll say things like, "Okay, you're they'll say things like, "Okay, you're they'll say things like, "Okay, you're having a hard time at school. Which of having a hard time at school. Which of having a hard time at school. Which of your friends reminds you of the villain your friends reminds you of the villain your friends reminds you of the villain in your the thing that you're this huge in your the thing that you're this huge in your the thing that you're this huge fan of? Which of your friends reminds fan of? Which of your friends reminds fan of? Which of your friends reminds you of, you know, who's the Sam to your you of, you know, who's the Sam to your you of, you know, who's the Sam to your Froto? Who's somebody that, you know, Froto? Who's somebody that, you know, Froto? Who's somebody that, you know, has your back? All of a sudden, through has your back? All of a sudden, through has your back? All of a sudden, through these stories, these kids are opening up these stories, these kids are opening up these stories, these kids are opening up and this is a way they understand their and this is a way they understand their and this is a way they understand their lives and they're willing to share their lives and they're willing to share their lives and they're willing to share their emotions through doing it in this emotions through doing it in this emotions through doing it in this mediated way in what they're such a huge mediated way in what they're such a huge mediated way in what they're such a huge fan of. fan of. fan of. >> So, you said a lot there. I just want to >> So, you said a lot there. I just want to >> So, you said a lot there. I just want to go back to the sort of the base case of go back to the sort of the base case of go back to the sort of the base case of me or anybody watching or listening me or anybody watching or listening me or anybody watching or listening worrying about a specific thing and then worrying about a specific thing and then worrying about a specific thing and then catastrophizing about it. Um again the catastrophizing about it. Um again the catastrophizing about it. Um again the kind of maladaptive imagination that we kind of maladaptive imagination that we kind of maladaptive imagination that we talked about at the beginning of this talked about at the beginning of this talked about at the beginning of this conversation and how we can use adaptive conversation and how we can use adaptive conversation and how we can use adaptive imagination to calm the nervous system. imagination to calm the nervous system. imagination to calm the nervous system. And you said something like kind of And you said something like kind of And you said something like kind of imagining it going well. So, for imagining it going well. So, for imagining it going well. So, for example, if I haven't done a public example, if I haven't done a public example, if I haven't done a public speaking gig in a long time, usually if speaking gig in a long time, usually if speaking gig in a long time, usually if it's on television, I'll be nervous for it's on television, I'll be nervous for it's on television, I'll be nervous for 48 to 72 hours beforehand. And I think 48 to 72 hours beforehand. And I think 48 to 72 hours beforehand. And I think what you're saying is I can actually what you're saying is I can actually what you're saying is I can actually just imagine that that it goes really just imagine that that it goes really just imagine that that it goes really well and that I've helped people and and well and that I've helped people and and well and that I've helped people and and had a good time. had a good time. had a good time. >> When in your life are you the most >> When in your life are you the most >> When in your life are you the most grounded, comfortable, and in flow? So grounded, comfortable, and in flow? So grounded, comfortable, and in flow? So if you imagine the times in your life if you imagine the times in your life if you imagine the times in your life when you're most grounded, comfortable, when you're most grounded, comfortable, when you're most grounded, comfortable, and in flow, when you feel like you are and in flow, when you feel like you are and in flow, when you feel like you are at the top of your game and stuff is at the top of your game and stuff is at the top of your game and stuff is just coming through, you not having to just coming through, you not having to just coming through, you not having to create, it feels great. I did this when create, it feels great. I did this when create, it feels great. I did this when I had a public speaking fear and I was I had a public speaking fear and I was I had a public speaking fear and I was literally backstage and I'm a soccer literally backstage and I'm a soccer literally backstage and I'm a soccer player and so I thought about when are player and so I thought about when are player and so I thought about when are the times when I feel at a very embodied the times when I feel at a very embodied the times when I feel at a very embodied level the best I ever feel? It's when level the best I ever feel? It's when level the best I ever feel? It's when I'm playing soccer. And so I said, "Just I'm playing soccer. And so I said, "Just I'm playing soccer. And so I said, "Just get out on that stage and put the ball get out on that stage and put the ball get out on that stage and put the ball in the net." And that framing of a in the net." And that framing of a in the net." And that framing of a different way of kind of storytelling. I different way of kind of storytelling. I different way of kind of storytelling. I was like in my uniform, in my cleats, in was like in my uniform, in my cleats, in was like in my uniform, in my cleats, in my imagination, walking onto the stage my imagination, walking onto the stage my imagination, walking onto the stage and I'm like, "Hey everybody, how's it and I'm like, "Hey everybody, how's it and I'm like, "Hey everybody, how's it going?" You know, it's that bringing in going?" You know, it's that bringing in going?" You know, it's that bringing in the soccer imagination didn't make me the soccer imagination didn't make me the soccer imagination didn't make me play soccer on stage. It made me speak play soccer on stage. It made me speak play soccer on stage. It made me speak well because I was imagining a time that well because I was imagining a time that well because I was imagining a time that I do feel that way. I do feel that way. I do feel that way. >> Okay. Hey, let me ask you about another >> Okay. Hey, let me ask you about another >> Okay. Hey, let me ask you about another uh specific use case for the uh specific use case for the uh specific use case for the imagination. imagination. imagination. Um you say we can use it um when we find Um you say we can use it um when we find Um you say we can use it um when we find ourselves in conflict with other people. ourselves in conflict with other people. ourselves in conflict with other people. >> Obviously one of the greatest stressors >> Obviously one of the greatest stressors >> Obviously one of the greatest stressors of many most of our lives is of many most of our lives is of many most of our lives is difficulties with other people. And it's difficulties with other people. And it's difficulties with other people. And it's often because the two people in the often because the two people in the often because the two people in the situation or more than two people in the situation or more than two people in the situation or more than two people in the situation have very different worlds situation have very different worlds situation have very different worlds that they're living in. And that really that they're living in. And that really that they're living in. And that really tells you how much imagination is a part tells you how much imagination is a part tells you how much imagination is a part of the world you live in. If two of you of the world you live in. If two of you of the world you live in. If two of you are having the exact same experience and are having the exact same experience and are having the exact same experience and you are seeing it completely you are seeing it completely you are seeing it completely differently, it's not the sensing of the differently, it's not the sensing of the differently, it's not the sensing of the experience that's different. It's what experience that's different. It's what experience that's different. It's what you're imagining about the experience. you're imagining about the experience. you're imagining about the experience. So, you know, So, you know, So, you know, a partner uh doesn't take out the trash a partner uh doesn't take out the trash a partner uh doesn't take out the trash for 3 days when it's their job and it's for 3 days when it's their job and it's for 3 days when it's their job and it's sitting there smelling and overflowing. sitting there smelling and overflowing. sitting there smelling and overflowing. You're imagining, you know, this person You're imagining, you know, this person You're imagining, you know, this person is just showing me how much they don't is just showing me how much they don't is just showing me how much they don't respect me. They're showing me how much respect me. They're showing me how much respect me. They're showing me how much they don't care about our home. they don't care about our home. they don't care about our home. The other person not doing it is saying, The other person not doing it is saying, The other person not doing it is saying, "I am so overwhelmed. I'm almost "I am so overwhelmed. I'm almost "I am so overwhelmed. I'm almost immobilized by life. Like, I can't even immobilized by life. Like, I can't even immobilized by life. Like, I can't even get myself to face the trash." You know, get myself to face the trash." You know, get myself to face the trash." You know, they're not thinking at all about you. they're not thinking at all about you. they're not thinking at all about you. They're not thinking about whether or They're not thinking about whether or They're not thinking about whether or not they respect you or whether or not not they respect you or whether or not not they respect you or whether or not they care about their home. They're they care about their home. They're they care about their home. They're like, "I can't face it. I just I can't like, "I can't face it. I just I can't like, "I can't face it. I just I can't even do it right now." So, you're having even do it right now." So, you're having even do it right now." So, you're having two different imagined experiences. And two different imagined experiences. And two different imagined experiences. And what you can do is become curious. what you can do is become curious. what you can do is become curious. What are you imagining about this? When What are you imagining about this? When What are you imagining about this? When you don't do this, I'm imagining that you don't do this, I'm imagining that you don't do this, I'm imagining that you are saying, "I don't really care you are saying, "I don't really care you are saying, "I don't really care about her and I don't really care about about her and I don't really care about about her and I don't really care about my house." And I want to know what are my house." And I want to know what are my house." And I want to know what are you experiencing about this? Hopefully, you experiencing about this? Hopefully, you experiencing about this? Hopefully, people have enough insight to say, you people have enough insight to say, you people have enough insight to say, you know, I just feel like I can't face it. know, I just feel like I can't face it. know, I just feel like I can't face it. I can't do it right now. and I don't I can't do it right now. and I don't I can't do it right now. and I don't even, you know, I don't want to ask for even, you know, I don't want to ask for even, you know, I don't want to ask for help or it's so low on my priority list help or it's so low on my priority list help or it's so low on my priority list right now. I'm so stressed about other right now. I'm so stressed about other right now. I'm so stressed about other things. And as we share what we're things. And as we share what we're things. And as we share what we're imagining with each other, it becomes imagining with each other, it becomes imagining with each other, it becomes clearer and the pathway through it can clearer and the pathway through it can clearer and the pathway through it can become clearer. become clearer. become clearer. >> You have this term the inevitability >> You have this term the inevitability >> You have this term the inevitability loop and that we can use imagination to loop and that we can use imagination to loop and that we can use imagination to interrupt it. Uh you might have just interrupt it. Uh you might have just interrupt it. Uh you might have just described it, but just in case you described it, but just in case you described it, but just in case you haven't, I want to throw that out there haven't, I want to throw that out there haven't, I want to throw that out there as something you can respond to. as something you can respond to. as something you can respond to. >> Yeah, I mean it's just that this is the >> Yeah, I mean it's just that this is the >> Yeah, I mean it's just that this is the way it is. It's the way it has to be. way it is. It's the way it has to be. way it is. It's the way it has to be. it's the way it always will be. That it's the way it always will be. That it's the way it always will be. That thought is goes against what you and I thought is goes against what you and I thought is goes against what you and I understand as the obviously the understand as the obviously the understand as the obviously the temporary nature of reality. Um and in temporary nature of reality. Um and in temporary nature of reality. Um and in order to get beyond that feeling of order to get beyond that feeling of order to get beyond that feeling of inevitability, inevitability, inevitability, we must sit back and if we need to, we we must sit back and if we need to, we we must sit back and if we need to, we can create external conditions for new can create external conditions for new can create external conditions for new perspectives and imagination. One of the perspectives and imagination. One of the perspectives and imagination. One of the things I really loved about the acronym things I really loved about the acronym things I really loved about the acronym Vista is if you go to the top of a Vista is if you go to the top of a Vista is if you go to the top of a mountain or you go to a place with a mountain or you go to a place with a mountain or you go to a place with a huge view or you go to the ocean, even huge view or you go to the ocean, even huge view or you go to the ocean, even if you look at those images on your if you look at those images on your if you look at those images on your screen, it can really help you dial out screen, it can really help you dial out screen, it can really help you dial out your imagination to have a sense of awe. your imagination to have a sense of awe. your imagination to have a sense of awe. You've probably had Derk Kelner on the You've probably had Derk Kelner on the You've probably had Derk Kelner on the podcast. Ah is you know your mouth drops podcast. Ah is you know your mouth drops podcast. Ah is you know your mouth drops open your eyes open your pupils dilate open your eyes open your pupils dilate open your eyes open your pupils dilate you even make a sound sometimes like ah you even make a sound sometimes like ah you even make a sound sometimes like ah right you're actually opening to some right you're actually opening to some right you're actually opening to some new possibility and so if you're stuck new possibility and so if you're stuck new possibility and so if you're stuck in a thought of either inevitability or in a thought of either inevitability or in a thought of either inevitability or in there's only two choices and I can't in there's only two choices and I can't in there's only two choices and I can't decide which one to make most of the decide which one to make most of the decide which one to make most of the time there are many many more than two time there are many many more than two time there are many many more than two choices certainly more than one and if choices certainly more than one and if choices certainly more than one and if you can't bust out of that yourself. You you can't bust out of that yourself. You you can't bust out of that yourself. You can try going outside, exposing yourself can try going outside, exposing yourself can try going outside, exposing yourself to these huge vistas. You can try many to these huge vistas. You can try many to these huge vistas. You can try many other ways of delving into your other ways of delving into your other ways of delving into your imagination, having something come out imagination, having something come out imagination, having something come out of it. All kinds of practices do this of it. All kinds of practices do this of it. All kinds of practices do this throughout the world. Um, and you know, throughout the world. Um, and you know, throughout the world. Um, and you know, psychedelics are one of those. Um, not psychedelics are one of those. Um, not psychedelics are one of those. Um, not for everybody, right? But if you've been for everybody, right? But if you've been for everybody, right? But if you've been beating your head against one wall for a beating your head against one wall for a beating your head against one wall for a very, very long time, sometimes it takes very, very long time, sometimes it takes very, very long time, sometimes it takes a 2x4 to crack that open. How can we use a 2x4 to crack that open. How can we use a 2x4 to crack that open. How can we use imagination to deal with physical pain? imagination to deal with physical pain? imagination to deal with physical pain? >> Yeah, there are some good studies >> Yeah, there are some good studies >> Yeah, there are some good studies showing and sometimes this is with just showing and sometimes this is with just showing and sometimes this is with just imagination and sometimes this is with imagination and sometimes this is with imagination and sometimes this is with addition of virtual reality. One of the addition of virtual reality. One of the addition of virtual reality. One of the most powerful studies is when kids uh most powerful studies is when kids uh most powerful studies is when kids uh young people have a burn and it's young people have a burn and it's young people have a burn and it's severe, they have to go through a severe, they have to go through a severe, they have to go through a process of wound debridement, which is process of wound debridement, which is process of wound debridement, which is one of a very painful medical procedure one of a very painful medical procedure one of a very painful medical procedure that has to happen to avoid infection that has to happen to avoid infection that has to happen to avoid infection and and speed healing. And so what they and and speed healing. And so what they and and speed healing. And so what they did for these kids is gave them a VR did for these kids is gave them a VR did for these kids is gave them a VR headset and put them in a snow cave headset and put them in a snow cave headset and put them in a snow cave where they bury their body in snow and where they bury their body in snow and where they bury their body in snow and there's ice everywhere. while they're there's ice everywhere. while they're there's ice everywhere. while they're doing the wound debridement which burns doing the wound debridement which burns doing the wound debridement which burns and feels hot, they're in this and they and feels hot, they're in this and they and feels hot, they're in this and they showed significant reductions in pain. showed significant reductions in pain. showed significant reductions in pain. Now people are using VR for something Now people are using VR for something Now people are using VR for something even like dental work with kids or even like dental work with kids or even like dental work with kids or getting a blood draw which is very scary getting a blood draw which is very scary getting a blood draw which is very scary for most kids. They're finding I'm not for most kids. They're finding I'm not for most kids. They're finding I'm not even sure why they're not doing this all even sure why they're not doing this all even sure why they're not doing this all the time now because the data are very the time now because the data are very the time now because the data are very clear um that in part because of clear um that in part because of clear um that in part because of distraction and in part because you're distraction and in part because you're distraction and in part because you're giving your brain different messages giving your brain different messages giving your brain different messages that are pretty compelling um that kids that are pretty compelling um that kids that are pretty compelling um that kids do much better with blood draws with do much better with blood draws with do much better with blood draws with dental work when they're in these dental work when they're in these dental work when they're in these imagined worlds. imagined worlds. imagined worlds. >> VR headsets are not always available to >> VR headsets are not always available to >> VR headsets are not always available to us. So, if I've just stubbed my toe or us. So, if I've just stubbed my toe or us. So, if I've just stubbed my toe or I'm in an interview and this often I'm in an interview and this often I'm in an interview and this often happens and my back is hurting, can I happens and my back is hurting, can I happens and my back is hurting, can I use my imagination to reduce the pain use my imagination to reduce the pain use my imagination to reduce the pain signals? signals? signals? >> Yeah. Put a snow pack on your back and >> Yeah. Put a snow pack on your back and >> Yeah. Put a snow pack on your back and your imagination stick your foot in a your imagination stick your foot in a your imagination stick your foot in a imaginary cold cold waterfall. The imaginary cold cold waterfall. The imaginary cold cold waterfall. The reason we use VR is because it's a reason we use VR is because it's a reason we use VR is because it's a powerful illusion and it gives your 360 powerful illusion and it gives your 360 powerful illusion and it gives your 360 degree it's a very power like the first degree it's a very power like the first degree it's a very power like the first time I learned about VR they asked me to time I learned about VR they asked me to time I learned about VR they asked me to step off a plank that was four stories step off a plank that was four stories step off a plank that was four stories high and you know inside of your mind high and you know inside of your mind high and you know inside of your mind you know you're in a room and if you you know you're in a room and if you you know you're in a room and if you step off nothing's going to happen but step off nothing's going to happen but step off nothing's going to happen but oh I had I got into a cold sweat I could oh I had I got into a cold sweat I could oh I had I got into a cold sweat I could not step off that plank very powerful not step off that plank very powerful not step off that plank very powerful illusions can be helpful but if you illusions can be helpful but if you illusions can be helpful but if you train yourself in imagination you and train yourself in imagination you and train yourself in imagination you and harness the influence that imagination harness the influence that imagination harness the influence that imagination has. Won't take away all the pain. It has. Won't take away all the pain. It has. Won't take away all the pain. It will not take away all the pain, but it will not take away all the pain, but it will not take away all the pain, but it will help you reduce it. Final question will help you reduce it. Final question will help you reduce it. Final question for me. I saw something in preparing for for me. I saw something in preparing for for me. I saw something in preparing for this. Marissa Schneiderman, our senior this. Marissa Schneiderman, our senior this. Marissa Schneiderman, our senior producer, gave me a what we call a prep producer, gave me a what we call a prep producer, gave me a what we call a prep dock. There was something in there about dock. There was something in there about dock. There was something in there about re-enchanting life through what you call re-enchanting life through what you call re-enchanting life through what you call glimmers. And I specifically saw a glimmers. And I specifically saw a glimmers. And I specifically saw a mention in there of how these glimmers mention in there of how these glimmers mention in there of how these glimmers can allow you to feel safe in your can allow you to feel safe in your can allow you to feel safe in your nervous system. a phrase that really nervous system. a phrase that really nervous system. a phrase that really struck me because as somebody who's had struck me because as somebody who's had struck me because as somebody who's had quite profound anxiety since sentience, quite profound anxiety since sentience, quite profound anxiety since sentience, that is not always a sensation I have. that is not always a sensation I have. that is not always a sensation I have. So I wondered if we could if you could So I wondered if we could if you could So I wondered if we could if you could say a little bit more about how how we say a little bit more about how how we say a little bit more about how how we could get these glimmers. could get these glimmers. could get these glimmers. >> Yeah. So I'm trying to remember the name >> Yeah. So I'm trying to remember the name >> Yeah. So I'm trying to remember the name of the psychologist or healthcare of the psychologist or healthcare of the psychologist or healthcare practitioner that coined the term practitioner that coined the term practitioner that coined the term glimmers. Um but she calls them the glimmers. Um but she calls them the glimmers. Um but she calls them the opposite of triggers. So we have opposite of triggers. So we have opposite of triggers. So we have triggers throughout our lives. We triggers throughout our lives. We triggers throughout our lives. We typically overreact to a cue in our typically overreact to a cue in our typically overreact to a cue in our lives because of past experiences lives because of past experiences lives because of past experiences understandably and those triggers can understandably and those triggers can understandably and those triggers can reactivate some old old stuff. So we reactivate some old old stuff. So we reactivate some old old stuff. So we might get more angry about a situation might get more angry about a situation might get more angry about a situation than we would have been otherwise than we would have been otherwise than we would have been otherwise because it connects to a past one. We because it connects to a past one. We because it connects to a past one. We might get more reactive or more scared. might get more reactive or more scared. might get more reactive or more scared. Glimmers are kind of the opposite of Glimmers are kind of the opposite of Glimmers are kind of the opposite of that. Right now there's a bird making a that. Right now there's a bird making a that. Right now there's a bird making a nest on my porch and there's these nest on my porch and there's these nest on my porch and there's these little tiny birds in it that are little tiny birds in it that are little tiny birds in it that are meeping. These are like antidotes to meeping. These are like antidotes to meeping. These are like antidotes to find some of the beauty and the mystery find some of the beauty and the mystery find some of the beauty and the mystery of life and they work in exactly the of life and they work in exactly the of life and they work in exactly the opposite direction telling you, hey, opposite direction telling you, hey, opposite direction telling you, hey, life is pretty amazing. Also, there's a life is pretty amazing. Also, there's a life is pretty amazing. Also, there's a lot to be grateful for. I am kind of in lot to be grateful for. I am kind of in lot to be grateful for. I am kind of in a place where there's so many things in a place where there's so many things in a place where there's so many things in my life that I could be paying attention my life that I could be paying attention my life that I could be paying attention to that are right and good and true. And to that are right and good and true. And to that are right and good and true. And those things don't always have to be those things don't always have to be those things don't always have to be real. You can spend time in your real. You can spend time in your real. You can spend time in your imagination encountering these kinds of imagination encountering these kinds of imagination encountering these kinds of glimmers, these things that make your glimmers, these things that make your glimmers, these things that make your nervous system feel better. Anything nervous system feel better. Anything nervous system feel better. Anything from imagining that you're going to a from imagining that you're going to a from imagining that you're going to a beautiful safe space. Uh people have beautiful safe space. Uh people have beautiful safe space. Uh people have cultivated these imaginary safe spaces cultivated these imaginary safe spaces cultivated these imaginary safe spaces in their minds. Mine is like a mossy in their minds. Mine is like a mossy in their minds. Mine is like a mossy bank next to a river and you know I sit bank next to a river and you know I sit bank next to a river and you know I sit there watching the leaves go down the there watching the leaves go down the there watching the leaves go down the river that can be thoughts or worries river that can be thoughts or worries river that can be thoughts or worries and um that can be really helpful for me and um that can be really helpful for me and um that can be really helpful for me and what Rick Hansen calls taking in the and what Rick Hansen calls taking in the and what Rick Hansen calls taking in the good. So you can imagine wonderful good. So you can imagine wonderful good. So you can imagine wonderful things that have happened that you things that have happened that you things that have happened that you haven't savored completely or that you haven't savored completely or that you haven't savored completely or that you can savor over and over again. I mean, I can savor over and over again. I mean, I can savor over and over again. I mean, I can still savor when I was home with my can still savor when I was home with my can still savor when I was home with my daughter 25 years ago as a baby and daughter 25 years ago as a baby and daughter 25 years ago as a baby and sitting in a rocking chair with the sitting in a rocking chair with the sitting in a rocking chair with the sunlight filtering through the glass, sunlight filtering through the glass, sunlight filtering through the glass, little moes of dust and smelling the top little moes of dust and smelling the top little moes of dust and smelling the top of her head that smelled like a loaf of of her head that smelled like a loaf of of her head that smelled like a loaf of bread and the profoundly powerful love bread and the profoundly powerful love bread and the profoundly powerful love that I had for her in my arms. It can be that I had for her in my arms. It can be that I had for her in my arms. It can be a long time ago. It can be yesterday, a long time ago. It can be yesterday, a long time ago. It can be yesterday, but as Rick says, we tend to but as Rick says, we tend to but as Rick says, we tend to ruminate about the negative. We can make ruminate about the negative. We can make ruminate about the negative. We can make the choice to also savor the positive the choice to also savor the positive the choice to also savor the positive and bring it back to mind and pay more and bring it back to mind and pay more and bring it back to mind and pay more attention to it. recognize that our attention to it. recognize that our attention to it. recognize that our brains aren't wired necessarily to focus brains aren't wired necessarily to focus brains aren't wired necessarily to focus on those things because they're not on those things because they're not on those things because they're not threatening, but in fact, they can threatening, but in fact, they can threatening, but in fact, they can become biochemical antidotes to the become biochemical antidotes to the become biochemical antidotes to the stressors in our lives if we take that stressors in our lives if we take that stressors in our lives if we take that time to spend time with savoring those time to spend time with savoring those time to spend time with savoring those experiences. experiences. experiences. >> You were just at the end of that answer >> You were just at the end of that answer >> You were just at the end of that answer talking about taking in the good. I'm talking about taking in the good. I'm talking about taking in the good. I'm going to go back to the um the the first going to go back to the um the the first going to go back to the um the the first thing you mentioned which is about the thing you mentioned which is about the thing you mentioned which is about the the safe space or um sometimes it's the safe space or um sometimes it's the safe space or um sometimes it's referred to as a happy place. Um and referred to as a happy place. Um and referred to as a happy place. Um and these are like [laughter] these are like [laughter] these are like [laughter] have these ideas have been degraded by have these ideas have been degraded by have these ideas have been degraded by by having by having by having >> so cliche right. I know I know sometimes >> so cliche right. I know I know sometimes >> so cliche right. I know I know sometimes I cringe myself. I'm like oh come on you I cringe myself. I'm like oh come on you I cringe myself. I'm like oh come on you just spent five years of research just spent five years of research just spent five years of research showing things that are common knowledge showing things that are common knowledge showing things that are common knowledge or were being talked about in the 70s. or were being talked about in the 70s. or were being talked about in the 70s. But you know, some of them have this But you know, some of them have this But you know, some of them have this very powerful nugget of truth in them very powerful nugget of truth in them very powerful nugget of truth in them and we need to be reminded. And luckily and we need to be reminded. And luckily and we need to be reminded. And luckily now we have the tools of neuroscience to now we have the tools of neuroscience to now we have the tools of neuroscience to help us see that they're not just help us see that they're not just help us see that they're not just fantasies. They are having an impact in fantasies. They are having an impact in fantasies. They are having an impact in our biochemical our biochemical our biochemical makeup and our brains. And you know, I makeup and our brains. And you know, I makeup and our brains. And you know, I personally believe that our subjective personally believe that our subjective personally believe that our subjective experience is just as important as experience is just as important as experience is just as important as pictures of brains. But hey, it's pretty pictures of brains. But hey, it's pretty pictures of brains. But hey, it's pretty validating to see those pictures of validating to see those pictures of validating to see those pictures of brains and be like, hey, it is making a brains and be like, hey, it is making a brains and be like, hey, it is making a difference. difference. difference. >> Yes. And I I used uh the happy place >> Yes. And I I used uh the happy place >> Yes. And I I used uh the happy place imagination technique with when I was imagination technique with when I was imagination technique with when I was taking flights with my um exposure taking flights with my um exposure taking flights with my um exposure therapist uh when I was in the middle of therapist uh when I was in the middle of therapist uh when I was in the middle of um uh panic disorder on planes, although um uh panic disorder on planes, although um uh panic disorder on planes, although I I still have it, but not as bad. Um I I still have it, but not as bad. Um I I still have it, but not as bad. Um and imagining sitting on the beach with and imagining sitting on the beach with and imagining sitting on the beach with my family actually was quite helpful. my family actually was quite helpful. my family actually was quite helpful. Not a panacea, but but but quite Not a panacea, but but but quite Not a panacea, but but but quite helpful. Just in closing, can you just helpful. Just in closing, can you just helpful. Just in closing, can you just remind everybody, Dr. Ven of the name of remind everybody, Dr. Ven of the name of remind everybody, Dr. Ven of the name of your new book and anything else you've your new book and anything else you've your new book and anything else you've put out into the world. put out into the world. put out into the world. >> Yeah, it's Imagine that. Um, transform >> Yeah, it's Imagine that. Um, transform >> Yeah, it's Imagine that. Um, transform how you think, feel, and live with the how you think, feel, and live with the how you think, feel, and live with the science of imagination. You can find us science of imagination. You can find us science of imagination. You can find us at the Arthur C. Clark Center for Human at the Arthur C. Clark Center for Human at the Arthur C. Clark Center for Human Imagination. We'll be having an Imagination. We'll be having an Imagination. We'll be having an imagination summit uh August 11th when imagination summit uh August 11th when imagination summit uh August 11th when the book launches. And if you missed the book launches. And if you missed the book launches. And if you missed that, then you can find that at the that, then you can find that at the that, then you can find that at the HeartMind Institute. And I'll also be HeartMind Institute. And I'll also be HeartMind Institute. And I'll also be teaching a workshop on imagination at teaching a workshop on imagination at teaching a workshop on imagination at the Eselin Institute in December. the Eselin Institute in December. the Eselin Institute in December. >> Cassie, thank you. Thank you, Dan. >> Cassie, thank you. Thank you, Dan. >> Cassie, thank you. Thank you, Dan. >> Thank you so much to everybody who works >> Thank you so much to everybody who works >> Thank you so much to everybody who works so hard to make this show. 10% Happier so hard to make this show. 10% Happier so hard to make this show. 10% Happier is produced by Tara Anderson. Our is produced by Tara Anderson. Our is produced by Tara Anderson. Our recording and engineering is handled by recording and engineering is handled by recording and engineering is handled by the great folks over at Pod People. the great folks over at Pod People. the great folks over at Pod People. Marissa Schneiderman is our senior Marissa Schneiderman is our senior Marissa Schneiderman is our senior producer. DJ Cashmir is our executive producer. DJ Cashmir is our executive producer. DJ Cashmir is our executive producer. And Nick Thorburn of the great producer. And Nick Thorburn of the great producer. 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