The Uncomfortable Truth About Life Most People Learn Too Late | Maya Shankar

Why is it that so many of us struggle Why is it that so many of us struggle with changes that we don't want and are with changes that we don't want and are with changes that we don't want and are often unexpected? often unexpected? often unexpected? >> Yeah, and I should first say that I'm >> Yeah, and I should first say that I'm >> Yeah, and I should first say that I'm one of those people who feels a huge one of those people who feels a huge one of those people who feels a huge allergy to any sort of unexpected allergy to any sort of unexpected allergy to any sort of unexpected changes in my life. And so, one of the changes in my life. And so, one of the changes in my life. And so, one of the reasons that I gravitated towards reasons that I gravitated towards reasons that I gravitated towards studying this topic is because I find studying this topic is because I find studying this topic is because I find unexpected change really scary. Um, and unexpected change really scary. Um, and unexpected change really scary. Um, and I don't always feel like I've done the I don't always feel like I've done the I don't always feel like I've done the best job of managing my emotions and best job of managing my emotions and best job of managing my emotions and understanding how to really extract any understanding how to really extract any understanding how to really extract any sense of possibility that sits within sense of possibility that sits within sense of possibility that sits within the change. There's a lot of reasons why the change. There's a lot of reasons why the change. There's a lot of reasons why unexpected change is destabilizing. One unexpected change is destabilizing. One unexpected change is destabilizing. One of the biggest ones is that change is of the biggest ones is that change is of the biggest ones is that change is filled with so much uncertainty. filled with so much uncertainty. filled with so much uncertainty. And our brains are not wired to like And our brains are not wired to like And our brains are not wired to like uncertainty. So, one of my favorite uncertainty. So, one of my favorite uncertainty. So, one of my favorite research studies shows that we are more research studies shows that we are more research studies shows that we are more stressed when we're told we have a 50% stressed when we're told we have a 50% stressed when we're told we have a 50% chance of getting an electric shock than chance of getting an electric shock than chance of getting an electric shock than when we're told we have a 100% chance of when we're told we have a 100% chance of when we're told we have a 100% chance of getting that shock. And so, we'd rather getting that shock. And so, we'd rather getting that shock. And so, we'd rather be certain that a negative thing is be certain that a negative thing is be certain that a negative thing is going to happen than to have to grapple going to happen than to have to grapple going to happen than to have to grapple with any ambiguity or uncertainty. And with any ambiguity or uncertainty. And with any ambiguity or uncertainty. And it sounds so silly, Renan, but if you're it sounds so silly, Renan, but if you're it sounds so silly, Renan, but if you're like me, you resonate with this finding. like me, you resonate with this finding. like me, you resonate with this finding. I like knowing how the story ends. I I like knowing how the story ends. I I like knowing how the story ends. I like having a firm grip at the steering like having a firm grip at the steering like having a firm grip at the steering wheel. And so when the future is unknown wheel. And so when the future is unknown wheel. And so when the future is unknown to me, I start to get anxious. I start to me, I start to get anxious. I start to me, I start to get anxious. I start to ruminate. I start to over plan. And to ruminate. I start to over plan. And to ruminate. I start to over plan. And it's very hard to sort of embrace the it's very hard to sort of embrace the it's very hard to sort of embrace the unknown. unknown. unknown. >> It's fascinating when you talk about >> It's fascinating when you talk about >> It's fascinating when you talk about that research study and it very clearly that research study and it very clearly that research study and it very clearly demonstrates how much human beings demonstrates how much human beings demonstrates how much human beings like certainty in our lives. like certainty in our lives. like certainty in our lives. It made me think about the difference It made me think about the difference It made me think about the difference between GPS and specialists. So in between GPS and specialists. So in between GPS and specialists. So in medicine, medicine, medicine, >> I used to think about this when I moved >> I used to think about this when I moved >> I used to think about this when I moved from specialism into general practice from specialism into general practice from specialism into general practice and here in the UK at least in the and here in the UK at least in the and here in the UK at least in the National Health Service, National Health Service, National Health Service, if you're a specialist in a hospital, if you're a specialist in a hospital, if you're a specialist in a hospital, you have access to all kinds of tests. you have access to all kinds of tests. you have access to all kinds of tests. So in many ways, you're able to get a So in many ways, you're able to get a So in many ways, you're able to get a higher degree of certainty higher degree of certainty higher degree of certainty when your patient comes in, whereas in when your patient comes in, whereas in when your patient comes in, whereas in general practice, general practice, general practice, >> you don't have access to all those >> you don't have access to all those >> you don't have access to all those tests. And so I've often wondered, and I tests. And so I've often wondered, and I tests. And so I've often wondered, and I haven't seen any research on this, haven't seen any research on this, haven't seen any research on this, whether primary care physicians and GPS whether primary care physicians and GPS whether primary care physicians and GPS are better able to manage uncertainty are better able to manage uncertainty are better able to manage uncertainty because they have fewer tests and they because they have fewer tests and they because they have fewer tests and they have to do that as part of their have to do that as part of their have to do that as part of their day-to-day job compared to specialists. day-to-day job compared to specialists. day-to-day job compared to specialists. Oh, that's such a fascinating Oh, that's such a fascinating Oh, that's such a fascinating observation. Um, I really do think that observation. Um, I really do think that observation. Um, I really do think that tolerance for uncertainty is a muscle tolerance for uncertainty is a muscle tolerance for uncertainty is a muscle that we can all build. And one of my that we can all build. And one of my that we can all build. And one of my goals actually in writing the other side goals actually in writing the other side goals actually in writing the other side of change was to learn to live more of change was to learn to live more of change was to learn to live more comfortably alongside uncertainty. And comfortably alongside uncertainty. And comfortably alongside uncertainty. And so I think your hypothesis may very well so I think your hypothesis may very well so I think your hypothesis may very well be true, which is that by virtue of not be true, which is that by virtue of not be true, which is that by virtue of not having all the information, they have to having all the information, they have to having all the information, they have to feel okay uh making recommendations or feel okay uh making recommendations or feel okay uh making recommendations or weighing in on certain treatment options weighing in on certain treatment options weighing in on certain treatment options without having the full picture and and without having the full picture and and without having the full picture and and learning to calm their nervous systems learning to calm their nervous systems learning to calm their nervous systems even when uh they don't have that full even when uh they don't have that full even when uh they don't have that full information set. information set. information set. >> Yeah. Would you say that some people are >> Yeah. Would you say that some people are >> Yeah. Would you say that some people are better at navigating change than others? better at navigating change than others? better at navigating change than others? And if so, why do you think that is? And if so, why do you think that is? And if so, why do you think that is? >> Yes. So, it is definitely true that >> Yes. So, it is definitely true that >> Yes. So, it is definitely true that people who are more open-minded about people who are more open-minded about people who are more open-minded about what may come may navigate change better what may come may navigate change better what may come may navigate change better because they don't seek cognitive because they don't seek cognitive because they don't seek cognitive closure as much as the rest of us. So, closure as much as the rest of us. So, closure as much as the rest of us. So, what is cognitive closure? It's the what is cognitive closure? It's the what is cognitive closure? It's the desire for clear definitive answers, desire for clear definitive answers, desire for clear definitive answers, black and white answers. The challenge black and white answers. The challenge black and white answers. The challenge is that when we climb out of the rubble is that when we climb out of the rubble is that when we climb out of the rubble of a negative change in our lives, often of a negative change in our lives, often of a negative change in our lives, often all we see is gray space. And so, um, we all we see is gray space. And so, um, we all we see is gray space. And so, um, we have to be a little bit more open-minded have to be a little bit more open-minded have to be a little bit more open-minded about what may come and that can be about what may come and that can be about what may come and that can be adaptive. But the focus of my work is on adaptive. But the focus of my work is on adaptive. But the focus of my work is on figuring out, okay, aside from our figuring out, okay, aside from our figuring out, okay, aside from our natural dispositions, what can each of natural dispositions, what can each of natural dispositions, what can each of us do to increase our tolerance in the us do to increase our tolerance in the us do to increase our tolerance in the face of uncertainty so that we can be face of uncertainty so that we can be face of uncertainty so that we can be more resilient in the face of change, no more resilient in the face of change, no more resilient in the face of change, no matter what our starting point is. And matter what our starting point is. And matter what our starting point is. And what I've learned is that a subtle shift what I've learned is that a subtle shift what I've learned is that a subtle shift in mindset can actually have a in mindset can actually have a in mindset can actually have a transformative impact on any given transformative impact on any given transformative impact on any given person's resilience. person's resilience. person's resilience. When a big change happens to us, it also When a big change happens to us, it also When a big change happens to us, it also leads to lasting change within us. And leads to lasting change within us. And leads to lasting change within us. And this is something that most people this is something that most people this is something that most people forget. So at the outset of a change forget. So at the outset of a change forget. So at the outset of a change they might feel extremely daunted they might feel extremely daunted they might feel extremely daunted thinking there is no conceivable way thinking there is no conceivable way thinking there is no conceivable way that I may incapable of navigating this that I may incapable of navigating this that I may incapable of navigating this harrowing change. I just don't have the harrowing change. I just don't have the harrowing change. I just don't have the skills. I don't have the abilities. I skills. I don't have the abilities. I skills. I don't have the abilities. I don't have the right perspectives or don't have the right perspectives or don't have the right perspectives or values or beliefs. But what I'm lacking values or beliefs. But what I'm lacking values or beliefs. But what I'm lacking to appreciate when I say that is that I to appreciate when I say that is that I to appreciate when I say that is that I will be changing as a result of this will be changing as a result of this will be changing as a result of this experience. and the person who will experience. and the person who will experience. and the person who will emerge on the other side of change will emerge on the other side of change will emerge on the other side of change will be different from the person I am today. be different from the person I am today. be different from the person I am today. Now there's a cognitive bias that can Now there's a cognitive bias that can Now there's a cognitive bias that can often prevent us from realizing this. often prevent us from realizing this. often prevent us from realizing this. It's called the end of history illusion. It's called the end of history illusion. It's called the end of history illusion. So what does the end of history illusion So what does the end of history illusion So what does the end of history illusion say? It says that while we all fully say? It says that while we all fully say? It says that while we all fully appreciate we've changed considerably in appreciate we've changed considerably in appreciate we've changed considerably in the past. So, if you were to ask me, you the past. So, if you were to ask me, you the past. So, if you were to ask me, you know, know, know, look at these photos of 10-year-old Maya look at these photos of 10-year-old Maya look at these photos of 10-year-old Maya or 20-year-old Maya. Do you feel that or 20-year-old Maya. Do you feel that or 20-year-old Maya. Do you feel that you're different today than you were you're different today than you were you're different today than you were back then? I would say, of course, Runan back then? I would say, of course, Runan back then? I would say, of course, Runan # cringe. This is horrible. I thought we # cringe. This is horrible. I thought we # cringe. This is horrible. I thought we were friends. Why are you showing me were friends. Why are you showing me were friends. Why are you showing me this footage? Um, but interestingly, if this footage? Um, but interestingly, if this footage? Um, but interestingly, if you were to ask me, well, how much do you were to ask me, well, how much do you were to ask me, well, how much do you plan to change moving forward? I you plan to change moving forward? I you plan to change moving forward? I would say, oh, no, no, no, no. What you would say, oh, no, no, no, no. What you would say, oh, no, no, no, no. What you see is what you get. This is the see is what you get. This is the see is what you get. This is the finished product. And so researchers say finished product. And so researchers say finished product. And so researchers say that we strangely view the present as a that we strangely view the present as a that we strangely view the present as a watershed moment in which we have become watershed moment in which we have become watershed moment in which we have become the person we will be for the rest of the person we will be for the rest of the person we will be for the rest of our lives. our lives. our lives. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> And so what this does is that it limits >> And so what this does is that it limits >> And so what this does is that it limits our understanding of how we might our understanding of how we might our understanding of how we might transform moving forward, right? Because transform moving forward, right? Because transform moving forward, right? Because of course we are continuing to change. of course we are continuing to change. of course we are continuing to change. And the thesis of my book is that these And the thesis of my book is that these And the thesis of my book is that these massive anvilsized changes that drop massive anvilsized changes that drop massive anvilsized changes that drop from the sky on a clear blue day from the sky on a clear blue day from the sky on a clear blue day accelerate these internal accelerate these internal accelerate these internal transformations. transformations. transformations. >> Yeah, I love that end of history >> Yeah, I love that end of history >> Yeah, I love that end of history illusion. It's so so true, isn't it? illusion. It's so so true, isn't it? illusion. It's so so true, isn't it? That we can just reflect on our own That we can just reflect on our own That we can just reflect on our own lives in terms of I guess personal lives in terms of I guess personal lives in terms of I guess personal growth. You know, in our 20ies, I growth. You know, in our 20ies, I growth. You know, in our 20ies, I thought I knew about the world. I thought I knew about the world. I thought I knew about the world. I thought I knew how I thought what was thought I knew how I thought what was thought I knew how I thought what was going on. And you know when I'm 30 I'll going on. And you know when I'm 30 I'll going on. And you know when I'm 30 I'll probably look back and go wow you were probably look back and go wow you were probably look back and go wow you were quite juvenile and naive back then and quite juvenile and naive back then and quite juvenile and naive back then and >> 100% >> 100% >> 100% >> you know and you keep doing that but now >> you know and you keep doing that but now >> you know and you keep doing that but now of course at 48 I know the real deal of course at 48 I know the real deal of course at 48 I know the real deal about the world and how it all is but of about the world and how it all is but of about the world and how it all is but of course that that denies the possibility course that that denies the possibility course that that denies the possibility and the probability that I am going to and the probability that I am going to and the probability that I am going to keep on changing keep on changing keep on changing as I progress in the world. as I progress in the world. as I progress in the world. >> That's exactly right. And when we are >> That's exactly right. And when we are >> That's exactly right. And when we are thrust into a new reality filled with a thrust into a new reality filled with a thrust into a new reality filled with a new set of constraints, new set of constraints, new set of constraints, what it can do is reveal to us the what it can do is reveal to us the what it can do is reveal to us the beliefs that we have that were maybe beliefs that we have that were maybe beliefs that we have that were maybe previously hidden from view, previously hidden from view, previously hidden from view, capabilities that we didn't know we were capabilities that we didn't know we were capabilities that we didn't know we were we had in our possession. Um, new we had in our possession. Um, new we had in our possession. Um, new vantage points, new perspectives. vantage points, new perspectives. vantage points, new perspectives. By and large, the people that I By and large, the people that I By and large, the people that I interviewed for The Other Side of interviewed for The Other Side of interviewed for The Other Side of Change, and you know, you've read the Change, and you know, you've read the Change, and you know, you've read the book, they've been through harrowing book, they've been through harrowing book, they've been through harrowing changes, right? Illness, heartbreak, changes, right? Illness, heartbreak, changes, right? Illness, heartbreak, loss, the discoveries of a of a secret loss, the discoveries of a of a secret loss, the discoveries of a of a secret in their families, whatever it was. in their families, whatever it was. in their families, whatever it was. They're not necessarily happy that the They're not necessarily happy that the They're not necessarily happy that the change happened to them, who would change happened to them, who would change happened to them, who would willingly invite loss or heartbreak into willingly invite loss or heartbreak into willingly invite loss or heartbreak into their lives. very few people, but their lives. very few people, but their lives. very few people, but they're deeply grateful for the person they're deeply grateful for the person they're deeply grateful for the person that they became as a result of the that they became as a result of the that they became as a result of the change they went through. They tapped change they went through. They tapped change they went through. They tapped into newfound confidence, new found into newfound confidence, new found into newfound confidence, new found freedom, a new way of seeing their freedom, a new way of seeing their freedom, a new way of seeing their families and their past, a new way of families and their past, a new way of families and their past, a new way of relating to people, just new ways of relating to people, just new ways of relating to people, just new ways of seeing themselves and the world around seeing themselves and the world around seeing themselves and the world around them and their place in it. And all of them and their place in it. And all of them and their place in it. And all of them emerged with a new kind of them emerged with a new kind of them emerged with a new kind of enlightenment that really served them enlightenment that really served them enlightenment that really served them well and a newfound understanding of who well and a newfound understanding of who well and a newfound understanding of who they were and who they are and who they they were and who they are and who they they were and who they are and who they can become. can become. can become. >> Yeah, the stories in the book are >> Yeah, the stories in the book are >> Yeah, the stories in the book are fabulous. In in most of those stories, fabulous. In in most of those stories, fabulous. In in most of those stories, we can see an element of ourselves. And we can see an element of ourselves. And we can see an element of ourselves. And so I thought it was a really nice way of so I thought it was a really nice way of so I thought it was a really nice way of trying to write this book and and share trying to write this book and and share trying to write this book and and share these tools with us. these tools with us. these tools with us. I sort of think about some of the things I sort of think about some of the things I sort of think about some of the things you've said, right? You you said about you've said, right? You you said about you've said, right? You you said about beliefs, how important beliefs, how important beliefs, how important um beliefs are. And I think one of my um beliefs are. And I think one of my um beliefs are. And I think one of my favorite chapters in the book is the favorite chapters in the book is the favorite chapters in the book is the blank slate. I think it was chapter blank slate. I think it was chapter blank slate. I think it was chapter five. And five. And five. And >> you know, I'm I'm fascinated by beliefs >> you know, I'm I'm fascinated by beliefs >> you know, I'm I'm fascinated by beliefs and how much our beliefs and how much our beliefs and how much our beliefs shape our reality. But of course, shape our reality. But of course, shape our reality. But of course, beliefs only hold true as long as we beliefs only hold true as long as we beliefs only hold true as long as we believe in them. Right? The truth is the believe in them. Right? The truth is the believe in them. Right? The truth is the truth irrespective of whether we believe truth irrespective of whether we believe truth irrespective of whether we believe in it or not. But a belief only holds in it or not. But a belief only holds in it or not. But a belief only holds true as long as we subscribe to it. And true as long as we subscribe to it. And true as long as we subscribe to it. And a lot of us are walking around with a lot of us are walking around with a lot of us are walking around with beliefs that we've never ever questioned beliefs that we've never ever questioned beliefs that we've never ever questioned before. And I think that chapter before. And I think that chapter before. And I think that chapter beautifully illustrates this idea that beautifully illustrates this idea that beautifully illustrates this idea that sometimes it takes an unwanted and sometimes it takes an unwanted and sometimes it takes an unwanted and unexpected change to be thrust upon your unexpected change to be thrust upon your unexpected change to be thrust upon your life for you to start questioning your life for you to start questioning your life for you to start questioning your beliefs. beliefs. beliefs. One of the things I talk about in the One of the things I talk about in the One of the things I talk about in the book is change serving as revelation. book is change serving as revelation. book is change serving as revelation. And what's so interesting is that when a And what's so interesting is that when a And what's so interesting is that when a negative change happens to us, it can negative change happens to us, it can negative change happens to us, it can feel like a personal apocalypse of feel like a personal apocalypse of feel like a personal apocalypse of sorts. It can feel like the world that sorts. It can feel like the world that sorts. It can feel like the world that was once available to us is no longer in was once available to us is no longer in was once available to us is no longer in view. And apocalypse actually comes from view. And apocalypse actually comes from view. And apocalypse actually comes from the Greek word apocalypsis. And the Greek word apocalypsis. And the Greek word apocalypsis. And interestingly, that word means interestingly, that word means interestingly, that word means revelation. And so this etmology is revelation. And so this etmology is revelation. And so this etmology is really instructive. Yes, change can really instructive. Yes, change can really instructive. Yes, change can upend us, but it can also reveal things upend us, but it can also reveal things upend us, but it can also reveal things to us that as I was saying earlier were to us that as I was saying earlier were to us that as I was saying earlier were previously hidden from view. Exactly as previously hidden from view. Exactly as previously hidden from view. Exactly as you said, we move about in this world you said, we move about in this world you said, we move about in this world carrying so many beliefs. And it's easy carrying so many beliefs. And it's easy carrying so many beliefs. And it's easy to believe that our belief systems to believe that our belief systems to believe that our belief systems reflect an immutable sacred truth about reflect an immutable sacred truth about reflect an immutable sacred truth about the world. But in actuality, so few of the world. But in actuality, so few of the world. But in actuality, so few of these beliefs we've actually these beliefs we've actually these beliefs we've actually interrogated over the course of our interrogated over the course of our interrogated over the course of our lives. It would be cognitively lives. It would be cognitively lives. It would be cognitively impossible to do that, right? Because we impossible to do that, right? Because we impossible to do that, right? Because we we have so so so many beliefs and we we have so so so many beliefs and we we have so so so many beliefs and we don't have the cognitive bandwidth to don't have the cognitive bandwidth to don't have the cognitive bandwidth to every day wake up and think which belief every day wake up and think which belief every day wake up and think which belief should I interrogate today? Um not to should I interrogate today? Um not to should I interrogate today? Um not to mention that so many of these beliefs mention that so many of these beliefs mention that so many of these beliefs sit on a somewhat flimsy foundation. So sit on a somewhat flimsy foundation. So sit on a somewhat flimsy foundation. So many of them were born in childhood, many of them were born in childhood, many of them were born in childhood, right? Before our brains were fully right? Before our brains were fully right? Before our brains were fully developed, we were influenced by developed, we were influenced by developed, we were influenced by messages from caregivers or teachers or messages from caregivers or teachers or messages from caregivers or teachers or peers or popular culture or what we saw peers or popular culture or what we saw peers or popular culture or what we saw on TV for kids these days, social media. on TV for kids these days, social media. on TV for kids these days, social media. And so we absorb these messages somewhat And so we absorb these messages somewhat And so we absorb these messages somewhat subconsciously and without really subconsciously and without really subconsciously and without really interrogating them through the ideal interrogating them through the ideal interrogating them through the ideal rational lens. And so what that means is rational lens. And so what that means is rational lens. And so what that means is that we may carry so many views that that we may carry so many views that that we may carry so many views that actually are self-limiting that don't actually are self-limiting that don't actually are self-limiting that don't reflect reality that are based on faulty reflect reality that are based on faulty reflect reality that are based on faulty information but that for example if they information but that for example if they information but that for example if they were formed during childhood we're bound were formed during childhood we're bound were formed during childhood we're bound up in our sense of love and belonging up in our sense of love and belonging up in our sense of love and belonging and so it almost feels too painful to and so it almost feels too painful to and so it almost feels too painful to dismantle some of those beliefs and to dismantle some of those beliefs and to dismantle some of those beliefs and to actually imagine a world in which we actually imagine a world in which we actually imagine a world in which we don't have them. And so I argue in the don't have them. And so I argue in the don't have them. And so I argue in the book that change can serve as a moment book that change can serve as a moment book that change can serve as a moment in which those beliefs are revealed to in which those beliefs are revealed to in which those beliefs are revealed to you and then you can actually revisit you and then you can actually revisit you and then you can actually revisit them, assess them for their credibess them, assess them for their credibess them, assess them for their credibess them for their credibility and merit and them for their credibility and merit and them for their credibility and merit and then potentially move forward in a world then potentially move forward in a world then potentially move forward in a world in which you don't have those beliefs. in which you don't have those beliefs. in which you don't have those beliefs. And so in the story you describe with And so in the story you describe with And so in the story you describe with Ingred, a bout of amnesia actually Ingred, a bout of amnesia actually Ingred, a bout of amnesia actually reveals to her that she had been reveals to her that she had been reveals to her that she had been carrying all of this shame around her carrying all of this shame around her carrying all of this shame around her family's indigenous history and family's indigenous history and family's indigenous history and heritage. And it is through that heritage. And it is through that heritage. And it is through that experience of losing all of her memories experience of losing all of her memories experience of losing all of her memories of having a blank slate that she feels of having a blank slate that she feels of having a blank slate that she feels liberated and free for the first time. liberated and free for the first time. liberated and free for the first time. She has such an unusual experience with She has such an unusual experience with She has such an unusual experience with her amnesia. I for one would freak out her amnesia. I for one would freak out her amnesia. I for one would freak out if I had amnesia. But Ingred feels this if I had amnesia. But Ingred feels this if I had amnesia. But Ingred feels this lightness of being. And it's because lightness of being. And it's because lightness of being. And it's because she's realizing in that moment, oh my she's realizing in that moment, oh my she's realizing in that moment, oh my god, all this shame that I was feeling god, all this shame that I was feeling god, all this shame that I was feeling around my family's history was such a around my family's history was such a around my family's history was such a burden for me. And now that I can see burden for me. And now that I can see burden for me. And now that I can see things a new without the anchors of my things a new without the anchors of my things a new without the anchors of my past, without all of these biases that past, without all of these biases that past, without all of these biases that informed my understanding of my family, informed my understanding of my family, informed my understanding of my family, the future looks so much more hopeful the future looks so much more hopeful the future looks so much more hopeful and so much more beautiful. and so much more beautiful. and so much more beautiful. >> Yeah, it was such an evocative story. I >> Yeah, it was such an evocative story. I >> Yeah, it was such an evocative story. I I I read it over quite a few times I I read it over quite a few times I I read it over quite a few times actually. you know, this young lady actually. you know, this young lady actually. you know, this young lady growing up in Colombia and then she she growing up in Colombia and then she she growing up in Colombia and then she she moves, I think, to America from moves, I think, to America from moves, I think, to America from recollection and she's recollection and she's recollection and she's >> she's knocked over on her bike. And >> she's knocked over on her bike. And >> she's knocked over on her bike. And >> it was so striking because I think a lot >> it was so striking because I think a lot >> it was so striking because I think a lot of us, of us, of us, if we really thought about it, would go, if we really thought about it, would go, if we really thought about it, would go, what would it be like if we woke up one what would it be like if we woke up one what would it be like if we woke up one day completely unbburdened by the day completely unbburdened by the day completely unbburdened by the stories of the past? So you you know you stories of the past? So you you know you stories of the past? So you you know you literally start existing fresh from literally start existing fresh from literally start existing fresh from today. And it was you know you just said today. And it was you know you just said today. And it was you know you just said it. She felt lighter. I I remember I it. She felt lighter. I I remember I it. She felt lighter. I I remember I underlined that cuz I thought wow she underlined that cuz I thought wow she underlined that cuz I thought wow she felt lighter after she shed her inner felt lighter after she shed her inner felt lighter after she shed her inner narrative. narrative. narrative. For many of us that's kind of what For many of us that's kind of what For many of us that's kind of what forgiveness can do to us. You know if we forgiveness can do to us. You know if we forgiveness can do to us. You know if we if we're able to forgive we we feel if we're able to forgive we we feel if we're able to forgive we we feel lighter afterwards when we when we let lighter afterwards when we when we let lighter afterwards when we when we let go of this emotional baggage that we're go of this emotional baggage that we're go of this emotional baggage that we're carrying around. So maybe you could carrying around. So maybe you could carrying around. So maybe you could continue the story because you know your continue the story because you know your continue the story because you know your book's called The Other Side of Change. book's called The Other Side of Change. book's called The Other Side of Change. Who we become when life makes other Who we become when life makes other Who we become when life makes other plans. plans. plans. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Well, life made other plans for her with >> Well, life made other plans for her with >> Well, life made other plans for her with her bike crash and she fundamentally her bike crash and she fundamentally her bike crash and she fundamentally changed as a consequence. changed as a consequence. changed as a consequence. One thing that I love about Ingred's One thing that I love about Ingred's One thing that I love about Ingred's story is that it shows that we can often story is that it shows that we can often story is that it shows that we can often misinterpret messages that we receive misinterpret messages that we receive misinterpret messages that we receive when we're younger, but because we when we're younger, but because we when we're younger, but because we haven't interrogated the belief in the haven't interrogated the belief in the haven't interrogated the belief in the first place, we never realize again how first place, we never realize again how first place, we never realize again how flimsy or faulty the foundation is. So flimsy or faulty the foundation is. So flimsy or faulty the foundation is. So as Ingred was growing up, her mom would as Ingred was growing up, her mom would as Ingred was growing up, her mom would tell her, "I Ingred, you can never share tell her, "I Ingred, you can never share tell her, "I Ingred, you can never share our family stories with anyone outside our family stories with anyone outside our family stories with anyone outside the family because you might face the the family because you might face the the family because you might face the threat of violence or discrimination or threat of violence or discrimination or threat of violence or discrimination or any other sort of prejudice." And any other sort of prejudice." And any other sort of prejudice." And Ingred's little mind interpreted that Ingred's little mind interpreted that Ingred's little mind interpreted that as, well, if I'm being told that I can't as, well, if I'm being told that I can't as, well, if I'm being told that I can't share something with the world, it share something with the world, it share something with the world, it probably means there's something bad probably means there's something bad probably means there's something bad about the thing I'm being told I about the thing I'm being told I about the thing I'm being told I shouldn't share. In actuality though, shouldn't share. In actuality though, shouldn't share. In actuality though, Ingred's mom was deeply proud of her Ingred's mom was deeply proud of her Ingred's mom was deeply proud of her Colombian heritage. She was just issuing Colombian heritage. She was just issuing Colombian heritage. She was just issuing an admonition to Ingred because she an admonition to Ingred because she an admonition to Ingred because she wanted her daughter to be safe. It was wanted her daughter to be safe. It was wanted her daughter to be safe. It was really a practical piece of advice. And really a practical piece of advice. And really a practical piece of advice. And so when Ingred has amnesia and then so when Ingred has amnesia and then so when Ingred has amnesia and then again the the slate is wiped clean and again the the slate is wiped clean and again the the slate is wiped clean and these stories come back to her, but these stories come back to her, but these stories come back to her, but without the memory of her mom's without the memory of her mom's without the memory of her mom's admonition to never tell anyone about admonition to never tell anyone about admonition to never tell anyone about it, she's filled with utter delight it, she's filled with utter delight it, she's filled with utter delight around these stories. She thinks, "Oh my around these stories. She thinks, "Oh my around these stories. She thinks, "Oh my god, these are so beautiful and so god, these are so beautiful and so god, these are so beautiful and so magical." And when she's talking to her magical." And when she's talking to her magical." And when she's talking to her boyfriend that day, her boyfriend is boyfriend that day, her boyfriend is boyfriend that day, her boyfriend is thinking, "Why have you never shared thinking, "Why have you never shared thinking, "Why have you never shared these stories with me?" And Ingred can't these stories with me?" And Ingred can't these stories with me?" And Ingred can't understand why because she's filled with understand why because she's filled with understand why because she's filled with such awe and reverence and wonder for such awe and reverence and wonder for such awe and reverence and wonder for them. And then by the time the memory them. And then by the time the memory them. And then by the time the memory resurfaces, you know, her memories are resurfaces, you know, her memories are resurfaces, you know, her memories are coming back after the accident. When the coming back after the accident. When the coming back after the accident. When the memory resurfaces of her mom telling memory resurfaces of her mom telling memory resurfaces of her mom telling her, "Don't share this stuff." And she her, "Don't share this stuff." And she her, "Don't share this stuff." And she was reminded, "Oh my god, I'm ashamed of was reminded, "Oh my god, I'm ashamed of was reminded, "Oh my god, I'm ashamed of them. It's too late." She has already them. It's too late." She has already them. It's too late." She has already renewed her relationship with her renewed her relationship with her renewed her relationship with her family's heritage. She's already built a family's heritage. She's already built a family's heritage. She's already built a novel, beautiful relationship with her novel, beautiful relationship with her novel, beautiful relationship with her family's past. And so she rejects the family's past. And so she rejects the family's past. And so she rejects the shame element. In fact, she calls it shame element. In fact, she calls it shame element. In fact, she calls it like a block in the Jenga game, right? like a block in the Jenga game, right? like a block in the Jenga game, right? Cuz you were you were posing the Cuz you were you were posing the Cuz you were you were posing the question that this chapter of the book question that this chapter of the book question that this chapter of the book surfaces, which is who would we be surfaces, which is who would we be surfaces, which is who would we be without a belief? And Ingred uses this without a belief? And Ingred uses this without a belief? And Ingred uses this beautiful metaphor. She says, imagine beautiful metaphor. She says, imagine beautiful metaphor. She says, imagine having a game of Jenga, right? And that having a game of Jenga, right? And that having a game of Jenga, right? And that shame is just one block. And and Ingred shame is just one block. And and Ingred shame is just one block. And and Ingred learns that she can actually pull out learns that she can actually pull out learns that she can actually pull out that block and the apparatus is still that block and the apparatus is still that block and the apparatus is still fully sturdy. It's still standing, but fully sturdy. It's still standing, but fully sturdy. It's still standing, but she actually feels freer. And so this she actually feels freer. And so this she actually feels freer. And so this invites all of us to question, what are invites all of us to question, what are invites all of us to question, what are the beliefs that I have about myself or the beliefs that I have about myself or the beliefs that I have about myself or the world around me or my family? Do I the world around me or my family? Do I the world around me or my family? Do I have really low self-esteem? Do I have have really low self-esteem? Do I have have really low self-esteem? Do I have low self-confidence that's not rooted in low self-confidence that's not rooted in low self-confidence that's not rooted in anything real? Do I have shame for anything real? Do I have shame for anything real? Do I have shame for something that happened in the past that something that happened in the past that something that happened in the past that I haven't been willing to talk about? Do I haven't been willing to talk about? Do I haven't been willing to talk about? Do I have resentment? Am I unwilling to I have resentment? Am I unwilling to I have resentment? Am I unwilling to forgive someone in my life? It just forgive someone in my life? It just forgive someone in my life? It just invites people to ask themselves. And invites people to ask themselves. And invites people to ask themselves. And then one of the things that I then one of the things that I then one of the things that I >> do towards the end of the chapter is >> do towards the end of the chapter is >> do towards the end of the chapter is that I give people science-based that I give people science-based that I give people science-based strategies that they can use to actually strategies that they can use to actually strategies that they can use to actually effectively interrogate their beliefs. effectively interrogate their beliefs. effectively interrogate their beliefs. So, there's a lot of research in So, there's a lot of research in So, there's a lot of research in cognitive science around how to change cognitive science around how to change cognitive science around how to change other people's minds. And I'm really other people's minds. And I'm really other people's minds. And I'm really eager for us to turn those questions on eager for us to turn those questions on eager for us to turn those questions on ourselves so that we can change our own ourselves so that we can change our own ourselves so that we can change our own minds because self-beliefs can be some minds because self-beliefs can be some minds because self-beliefs can be some of the hardest to change. Right? When of the hardest to change. Right? When of the hardest to change. Right? When you when you pull on one little thread you when you pull on one little thread you when you pull on one little thread of the tapestry of our belief system, of the tapestry of our belief system, of the tapestry of our belief system, the whole thing can feel unurdy and very the whole thing can feel unurdy and very the whole thing can feel unurdy and very discomforting. And so, um, I wanted to discomforting. And so, um, I wanted to discomforting. And so, um, I wanted to give people the confidence to know give people the confidence to know give people the confidence to know actually it's okay to pull it a few actually it's okay to pull it a few actually it's okay to pull it a few threads. Um, the system can stay intact threads. Um, the system can stay intact threads. Um, the system can stay intact and actually there can be a tremendous and actually there can be a tremendous and actually there can be a tremendous amount of liberation that's accompanied amount of liberation that's accompanied amount of liberation that's accompanied by that. by that. by that. >> Yeah. As I was thinking about that >> Yeah. As I was thinking about that >> Yeah. As I was thinking about that chapter and Ingred's story, I was really chapter and Ingred's story, I was really chapter and Ingred's story, I was really led to the conclusion that maybe one of led to the conclusion that maybe one of led to the conclusion that maybe one of the best things about change that we the best things about change that we the best things about change that we didn't plan for, that we didn't expect. didn't plan for, that we didn't expect. didn't plan for, that we didn't expect. Maybe the best thing about it is that it Maybe the best thing about it is that it Maybe the best thing about it is that it forces us to think about updating our forces us to think about updating our forces us to think about updating our beliefs in a way that perhaps only beliefs in a way that perhaps only beliefs in a way that perhaps only change can. Now, you make the case that change can. Now, you make the case that change can. Now, you make the case that there there are other things that you there there are other things that you there there are other things that you can do, right? But there is something can do, right? But there is something can do, right? But there is something revealing revealing revealing about change. about change. about change. >> Yes. >> Yes. >> Yes. >> And it a lot of it depends on the >> And it a lot of it depends on the >> And it a lot of it depends on the perspective you you take on that perspective you you take on that perspective you you take on that situation. And that perspective of situation. And that perspective of situation. And that perspective of course can change over time. One of the course can change over time. One of the course can change over time. One of the things things things I've tried to do with my kids Maya over I've tried to do with my kids Maya over I've tried to do with my kids Maya over the last few years the last few years the last few years is help them realize that every is help them realize that every is help them realize that every situation situation situation in life has multiple interpretations. in life has multiple interpretations. in life has multiple interpretations. And it's it's because that realization And it's it's because that realization And it's it's because that realization has had such a profound impact on me and has had such a profound impact on me and has had such a profound impact on me and how I navigate change over the last how I navigate change over the last how I navigate change over the last decade or so decade or so decade or so >> that I think well I've learned that in >> that I think well I've learned that in >> that I think well I've learned that in my kind of 40s. my kind of 40s. my kind of 40s. I wouldn't it be cool to learn that when I wouldn't it be cool to learn that when I wouldn't it be cool to learn that when you're 12 years old and and you know the you're 12 years old and and you know the you're 12 years old and and you know the example that comes to mind that I have example that comes to mind that I have example that comes to mind that I have said on this podcast before is I think said on this podcast before is I think said on this podcast before is I think it was after the summer holidays my it was after the summer holidays my it was after the summer holidays my daughter um I think it was her second daughter um I think it was her second daughter um I think it was her second year in what you I guess you guys would year in what you I guess you guys would year in what you I guess you guys would call high school what we'd call call high school what we'd call call high school what we'd call secondary school here um although it is secondary school here um although it is secondary school here um although it is now called high school because I think now called high school because I think now called high school because I think we're becoming more and more we're becoming more and more we're becoming more and more Americanized but when I was a kid it was Americanized but when I was a kid it was Americanized but when I was a kid it was it was secondary school right it was secondary school right it was secondary school right >> keep your traditions Yeah, but I I >> keep your traditions Yeah, but I I >> keep your traditions Yeah, but I I remember a conversation with her about remember a conversation with her about remember a conversation with her about the classes were being changed around the classes were being changed around the classes were being changed around for some of the subjects and you know for some of the subjects and you know for some of the subjects and you know there was this discussion at home, you there was this discussion at home, you there was this discussion at home, you know, am I still going to be in in that know, am I still going to be in in that know, am I still going to be in in that class with my friends? class with my friends? class with my friends? >> And I remember sitting down with her. I >> And I remember sitting down with her. I >> And I remember sitting down with her. I said, "Hey, darling, listen. Of course, said, "Hey, darling, listen. Of course, said, "Hey, darling, listen. Of course, you want to be in a class with your you want to be in a class with your you want to be in a class with your friends, but if you're not, friends, but if you're not, friends, but if you're not, what opportunities are being presented what opportunities are being presented what opportunities are being presented to you that would have never ever been to you that would have never ever been to you that would have never ever been presented to you had that change not presented to you had that change not presented to you had that change not been made. been made. been made. I think I said it a bit more eloquently I think I said it a bit more eloquently I think I said it a bit more eloquently than that, but than that, but than that, but >> that's so eloquent. What a gift you gave >> that's so eloquent. What a gift you gave >> that's so eloquent. What a gift you gave your daughter. Well, I hope so because your daughter. Well, I hope so because your daughter. Well, I hope so because because and and I thought about that because and and I thought about that because and and I thought about that example as I was going through your book example as I was going through your book example as I was going through your book because because because she I mean what she said was, "Well, she I mean what she said was, "Well, she I mean what she said was, "Well, Daddy, I guess if I'm not in a class Daddy, I guess if I'm not in a class Daddy, I guess if I'm not in a class with my friends, I've got a chance to with my friends, I've got a chance to with my friends, I've got a chance to make new friends and maybe I would never make new friends and maybe I would never make new friends and maybe I would never have spent the time trying to get to have spent the time trying to get to have spent the time trying to get to know them and talk to them if I'd been know them and talk to them if I'd been know them and talk to them if I'd been put in a class with my existing put in a class with my existing put in a class with my existing friends." Right? And so my hope as a friends." Right? And so my hope as a friends." Right? And so my hope as a father is that I'm just ingraining in in father is that I'm just ingraining in in father is that I'm just ingraining in in her and my son from a young age that her and my son from a young age that her and my son from a young age that situations are going to present situations are going to present situations are going to present themselves to you in your life always themselves to you in your life always themselves to you in your life always that perhaps you don't want and you that perhaps you don't want and you that perhaps you don't want and you don't expect but every situation has don't expect but every situation has don't expect but every situation has multiple interpretations and can you multiple interpretations and can you multiple interpretations and can you train yourself over time as hard as some train yourself over time as hard as some train yourself over time as hard as some of those situations might be to look at of those situations might be to look at of those situations might be to look at them from different angles and I guess them from different angles and I guess them from different angles and I guess that is a theme that that sort of that is a theme that that sort of that is a theme that that sort of underpins underpins underpins the other side of change is this idea the other side of change is this idea the other side of change is this idea that change is an opportunity. that change is an opportunity. that change is an opportunity. Change reveals things that perhaps would Change reveals things that perhaps would Change reveals things that perhaps would never have been re revealed without it. never have been re revealed without it. never have been re revealed without it. And if you're smart about it and you use And if you're smart about it and you use And if you're smart about it and you use the techniques that you write about, the techniques that you write about, the techniques that you write about, change can sometimes be the best thing change can sometimes be the best thing change can sometimes be the best thing that ever happened to you. that ever happened to you. that ever happened to you. I want to say again um what a gift I want to say again um what a gift I want to say again um what a gift you've given your daughter because to you've given your daughter because to you've given your daughter because to encourage flexibility of thinking from encourage flexibility of thinking from encourage flexibility of thinking from the time you're very young is one of the the time you're very young is one of the the time you're very young is one of the most powerful tools that a person can most powerful tools that a person can most powerful tools that a person can have as they navigate their life. I have as they navigate their life. I have as they navigate their life. I think um in many ways we discourage that think um in many ways we discourage that think um in many ways we discourage that kind of flexibility. We want kids to kind of flexibility. We want kids to kind of flexibility. We want kids to give us clear answers to things. We kind give us clear answers to things. We kind give us clear answers to things. We kind of lock them in to certain ways of of lock them in to certain ways of of lock them in to certain ways of thinking, right? and cultivating that thinking, right? and cultivating that thinking, right? and cultivating that kind of mindset where you are willing to kind of mindset where you are willing to kind of mindset where you are willing to see situations from new perspectives and see situations from new perspectives and see situations from new perspectives and new angles where you're willing to new angles where you're willing to new angles where you're willing to question your beliefs or assumptions. question your beliefs or assumptions. question your beliefs or assumptions. That kind of mindset will aid your That kind of mindset will aid your That kind of mindset will aid your daughter and your son for the rest of daughter and your son for the rest of daughter and your son for the rest of their lives. I wish I had actually built their lives. I wish I had actually built their lives. I wish I had actually built that muscle more when I was younger. And that muscle more when I was younger. And that muscle more when I was younger. And so that's exactly right. So I really so that's exactly right. So I really so that's exactly right. So I really believe that we can come to see change believe that we can come to see change believe that we can come to see change not simply as something to endure but as not simply as something to endure but as not simply as something to endure but as an opportunity to reimagine who we can an opportunity to reimagine who we can an opportunity to reimagine who we can be. At the end of the day the other side be. At the end of the day the other side be. At the end of the day the other side of change is really a book about of change is really a book about of change is really a book about selfidentity and exploration. And that selfidentity and exploration. And that selfidentity and exploration. And that was the gift that I got from was the gift that I got from was the gift that I got from interviewing the remarkable people that interviewing the remarkable people that interviewing the remarkable people that I profile in the book and then enduring I profile in the book and then enduring I profile in the book and then enduring a change of my own over the course of a change of my own over the course of a change of my own over the course of writing the book. writing the book. writing the book. It's so interesting because to turn It's so interesting because to turn It's so interesting because to turn things personal for a moment, I as I was things personal for a moment, I as I was things personal for a moment, I as I was interviewing people where the book took interviewing people where the book took interviewing people where the book took me three and a half years to write, my me three and a half years to write, my me three and a half years to write, my husband and I were navigating a change husband and I were navigating a change husband and I were navigating a change in our own lives. So, long story short, in our own lives. So, long story short, in our own lives. So, long story short, uh we had been trying to start a family uh we had been trying to start a family uh we had been trying to start a family for about six or so years at this point for about six or so years at this point for about six or so years at this point in time and had been unsuccessful. So we in time and had been unsuccessful. So we in time and had been unsuccessful. So we had faced many obstacles and had faced many obstacles and had faced many obstacles and disappointments and failures and um disappointments and failures and um disappointments and failures and um miscarriages with our surrogate. And miscarriages with our surrogate. And miscarriages with our surrogate. And I remember Runan that even though I had I remember Runan that even though I had I remember Runan that even though I had experienced formative changes as a experienced formative changes as a experienced formative changes as a child, for example, I was an aspiring child, for example, I was an aspiring child, for example, I was an aspiring concert violinist and then a hand injury concert violinist and then a hand injury concert violinist and then a hand injury ended those dreams in a moment. I felt ended those dreams in a moment. I felt ended those dreams in a moment. I felt so unprepared for this particular so unprepared for this particular so unprepared for this particular change. And I think one reason for that change. And I think one reason for that change. And I think one reason for that is, and I imagine many of your listeners is, and I imagine many of your listeners is, and I imagine many of your listeners can relate to this, I love being in can relate to this, I love being in can relate to this, I love being in control. And I love being able to control. And I love being able to control. And I love being able to outwork outwork outwork the challenges in my life. So the challenges in my life. So the challenges in my life. So historically, when I face setbacks, I historically, when I face setbacks, I historically, when I face setbacks, I just think, okay, how can I creatively just think, okay, how can I creatively just think, okay, how can I creatively overcome this? How can I find a overcome this? How can I find a overcome this? How can I find a workaround? I I'll just work harder and workaround? I I'll just work harder and workaround? I I'll just work harder and that way I'll get to the outcome that that way I'll get to the outcome that that way I'll get to the outcome that I'm after. When you're in the space of I'm after. When you're in the space of I'm after. When you're in the space of fertility, it is one of the most fertility, it is one of the most fertility, it is one of the most humbling spaces because the universe is humbling spaces because the universe is humbling spaces because the universe is indifferent towards how much you want indifferent towards how much you want indifferent towards how much you want something, how deep your desire is, how something, how deep your desire is, how something, how deep your desire is, how quote hard you're willing to work. And quote hard you're willing to work. And quote hard you're willing to work. And so you are forced to reckon with the so you are forced to reckon with the so you are forced to reckon with the true limits of your control and to true limits of your control and to true limits of your control and to surrender in some ways to the universe. surrender in some ways to the universe. surrender in some ways to the universe. And so as I was undergoing this whole And so as I was undergoing this whole And so as I was undergoing this whole experience, um I still remember to this experience, um I still remember to this experience, um I still remember to this whole discussion around belief systems whole discussion around belief systems whole discussion around belief systems that on the night we found out that we that on the night we found out that we that on the night we found out that we had lost identical twin girls, had lost identical twin girls, had lost identical twin girls, um um um I felt in many ways like it had I felt in many ways like it had I felt in many ways like it had threatened the entirety of who Maya was. threatened the entirety of who Maya was. threatened the entirety of who Maya was. It felt like my life turned from color It felt like my life turned from color It felt like my life turned from color to grayscale in a moment. to grayscale in a moment. to grayscale in a moment. And what that change in part revealed to And what that change in part revealed to And what that change in part revealed to me which I don't know would have been me which I don't know would have been me which I don't know would have been revealed to me otherwise as we've just revealed to me otherwise as we've just revealed to me otherwise as we've just talked about is that talked about is that talked about is that for whatever reason maybe it was the for whatever reason maybe it was the for whatever reason maybe it was the influence of my Indian culture or maybe influence of my Indian culture or maybe influence of my Indian culture or maybe it was through popular culture and the it was through popular culture and the it was through popular culture and the messages that I heard growing up but I messages that I heard growing up but I messages that I heard growing up but I had come to believe that so much of my had come to believe that so much of my had come to believe that so much of my value and worth as a woman in the value and worth as a woman in the value and worth as a woman in the society society society needed to come from becoming a parent. needed to come from becoming a parent. needed to come from becoming a parent. And that required a lot of unpacking And that required a lot of unpacking And that required a lot of unpacking because I had to ask critically, who because I had to ask critically, who because I had to ask critically, who gave me that belief system? gave me that belief system? gave me that belief system? And do I really believe that's the right And do I really believe that's the right And do I really believe that's the right way of seeing things? Shouldn't it be way of seeing things? Shouldn't it be way of seeing things? Shouldn't it be the case that I think my life can be the case that I think my life can be the case that I think my life can be rich and full of color and meaning and rich and full of color and meaning and rich and full of color and meaning and purpose even in the absence of having purpose even in the absence of having purpose even in the absence of having children? And I talk about this children? And I talk about this children? And I talk about this evolution in the final chapter of the evolution in the final chapter of the evolution in the final chapter of the book as I'm navigating these losses. I book as I'm navigating these losses. I book as I'm navigating these losses. I share um I I sort of turned the mirror share um I I sort of turned the mirror share um I I sort of turned the mirror on myself because I had been, you know, on myself because I had been, you know, on myself because I had been, you know, in investigating other people's change in investigating other people's change in investigating other people's change stories, but I felt I owed my reader my stories, but I felt I owed my reader my stories, but I felt I owed my reader my own experience of change and the lessons own experience of change and the lessons own experience of change and the lessons I'd learned from the people I I'd learned from the people I I'd learned from the people I interviewed. Um, but that was an interviewed. Um, but that was an interviewed. Um, but that was an incredible evolution that was occurring incredible evolution that was occurring incredible evolution that was occurring within me where I had to challenge my within me where I had to challenge my within me where I had to challenge my own belief systems in when I was writing own belief systems in when I was writing own belief systems in when I was writing this book in my late 30s. And I think it this book in my late 30s. And I think it this book in my late 30s. And I think it was a testament to the fact that it's was a testament to the fact that it's was a testament to the fact that it's never too late for a change in your life never too late for a change in your life never too late for a change in your life to surface beliefs that have been so to surface beliefs that have been so to surface beliefs that have been so deeply entrenched. They they may force deeply entrenched. They they may force deeply entrenched. They they may force you to go all the way back to when you to go all the way back to when you to go all the way back to when you're 5 years old or 6 years old. But you're 5 years old or 6 years old. But you're 5 years old or 6 years old. But it is still possible for those beliefs it is still possible for those beliefs it is still possible for those beliefs to be malleable enough to play around to be malleable enough to play around to be malleable enough to play around with, to question, to actually override. with, to question, to actually override. with, to question, to actually override. >> Thank you for sharing that. And uh first >> Thank you for sharing that. And uh first >> Thank you for sharing that. And uh first of all, I'm I'm sorry you and your of all, I'm I'm sorry you and your of all, I'm I'm sorry you and your husband have been through such husband have been through such husband have been through such challenges when trying to start your own challenges when trying to start your own challenges when trying to start your own family. Also, I know you tried to give a family. Also, I know you tried to give a family. Also, I know you tried to give a shortened version of that story, but I shortened version of that story, but I shortened version of that story, but I know in the book you you sort of go into know in the book you you sort of go into know in the book you you sort of go into a lot more detail how you really really a lot more detail how you really really a lot more detail how you really really did from a young age did from a young age did from a young age take on this belief that take on this belief that take on this belief that what it means to be a woman in this what it means to be a woman in this what it means to be a woman in this world is to be a mother and you wanted world is to be a mother and you wanted world is to be a mother and you wanted to be a mom even as a I think as a to be a mom even as a I think as a to be a mom even as a I think as a little girl and as a teenager. It was little girl and as a teenager. It was little girl and as a teenager. It was absolutely absolutely absolutely >> it was kind of something that >> it was kind of something that >> it was kind of something that >> you just thought would happen. I you >> you just thought would happen. I you >> you just thought would happen. I you probably never even questioned whether probably never even questioned whether probably never even questioned whether it would happen and it you know there it would happen and it you know there it would happen and it you know there there are a few cognitive biases that there are a few cognitive biases that there are a few cognitive biases that you speak to in the book one you you speak to in the book one you you speak to in the book one you mentioned right at the start this end of mentioned right at the start this end of mentioned right at the start this end of history illusion but there's also the history illusion but there's also the history illusion but there's also the illusion of control right I guess you illusion of control right I guess you illusion of control right I guess you touched on it there you were forced to touched on it there you were forced to touched on it there you were forced to yes I guess confront your own belief yes I guess confront your own belief yes I guess confront your own belief systems systems systems but also on a much broader scale but also on a much broader scale but also on a much broader scale we're forced to confront this idea that we're forced to confront this idea that we're forced to confront this idea that I can't control everything that happens I can't control everything that happens I can't control everything that happens happens to me in this world. And one of happens to me in this world. And one of happens to me in this world. And one of the things I was hoping to talk to you the things I was hoping to talk to you the things I was hoping to talk to you about today, which perhaps now is a good about today, which perhaps now is a good about today, which perhaps now is a good time to bring up is is the death of my time to bring up is is the death of my time to bring up is is the death of my father. So when we talk about unexpected father. So when we talk about unexpected father. So when we talk about unexpected and unwanted changes, you know, divorce, and unwanted changes, you know, divorce, and unwanted changes, you know, divorce, relationship breakups, death, I guess, relationship breakups, death, I guess, relationship breakups, death, I guess, is one of the ultimate forms of change is one of the ultimate forms of change is one of the ultimate forms of change or ultimate types of change that or ultimate types of change that or ultimate types of change that >> we don't like. You know, many of us >> we don't like. You know, many of us >> we don't like. You know, many of us struggle to deal with the death of a struggle to deal with the death of a struggle to deal with the death of a loved one, understandably, loved one, understandably, loved one, understandably, but my whole relationship with my dad's but my whole relationship with my dad's but my whole relationship with my dad's death since it occurred in March 2013 death since it occurred in March 2013 death since it occurred in March 2013 has completely changed. You know, 12 has completely changed. You know, 12 has completely changed. You know, 12 almost 13 years in now. The situation is the same, right? The The situation is the same, right? The event has stayed the same. My dad died event has stayed the same. My dad died event has stayed the same. My dad died in March 2013, in March 2013, in March 2013, but my interpretation and my perspective but my interpretation and my perspective but my interpretation and my perspective on that situation is completely on that situation is completely on that situation is completely different from 12 years ago. And I I different from 12 years ago. And I I different from 12 years ago. And I I think there's a lot of hope in that think there's a lot of hope in that think there's a lot of hope in that where even if we're struggling with some where even if we're struggling with some where even if we're struggling with some change right at the start, change right at the start, change right at the start, over time you can start to reinterpret over time you can start to reinterpret over time you can start to reinterpret that situation and look at it through a that situation and look at it through a that situation and look at it through a different lens. So now Maya, without different lens. So now Maya, without different lens. So now Maya, without going into every bit of detail to do going into every bit of detail to do going into every bit of detail to do with it, with it, with it, I honestly I honestly I honestly now see my dad's death as a gift. now see my dad's death as a gift. now see my dad's death as a gift. >> Wow. >> Wow. >> Wow. >> I see it as a gift my father gave to me. >> I see it as a gift my father gave to me. >> I see it as a gift my father gave to me. I I I I moved back to the northwest of England I moved back to the northwest of England I moved back to the northwest of England after medical school to help my mom and after medical school to help my mom and after medical school to help my mom and my brother look after my dad. He was my brother look after my dad. He was my brother look after my dad. He was super unwell with lupus. He had kidney super unwell with lupus. He had kidney super unwell with lupus. He had kidney failure. And so for 15 years our whole failure. And so for 15 years our whole failure. And so for 15 years our whole lives were around uh dad and his care. lives were around uh dad and his care. lives were around uh dad and his care. And I think And I think And I think that I also used to suffer from the that I also used to suffer from the that I also used to suffer from the illusion of control bias. So maybe I do illusion of control bias. So maybe I do illusion of control bias. So maybe I do a little bit to to to a degree now, but a little bit to to to a degree now, but a little bit to to to a degree now, but I think in a big way I think in a big way I think in a big way >> if dad was ever sick during that time, >> if dad was ever sick during that time, >> if dad was ever sick during that time, I would by hook or by crook sort the I would by hook or by crook sort the I would by hook or by crook sort the situation out. I'd get into hospital. If situation out. I'd get into hospital. If situation out. I'd get into hospital. If he wasn't getting the right care, I'd he wasn't getting the right care, I'd he wasn't getting the right care, I'd get hold of the consultant. I I I guess get hold of the consultant. I I I guess get hold of the consultant. I I I guess I had that belief that if I want it I had that belief that if I want it I had that belief that if I want it enough, I can sort it. enough, I can sort it. enough, I can sort it. >> Yes. >> Yes. >> Yes. >> Whereas of course when he died suddenly >> Whereas of course when he died suddenly >> Whereas of course when he died suddenly I'm confronted with this idea that I'm confronted with this idea that I'm confronted with this idea that >> oh you you you kind of can't control >> oh you you you kind of can't control >> oh you you you kind of can't control everything right that you know so so I everything right that you know so so I everything right that you know so so I think my belief in that illusion was think my belief in that illusion was think my belief in that illusion was shattered. shattered. shattered. >> Yes. when my dad died. And once it >> Yes. when my dad died. And once it >> Yes. when my dad died. And once it shattered, I think it then gets easier shattered, I think it then gets easier shattered, I think it then gets easier to start to look at change in a slightly to start to look at change in a slightly to start to look at change in a slightly different way. And you know, why do I different way. And you know, why do I different way. And you know, why do I say to you that my dad's death I see as say to you that my dad's death I see as say to you that my dad's death I see as a gift? a gift? a gift? It's because the things I've learned It's because the things I've learned It's because the things I've learned about myself, the person who I've about myself, the person who I've about myself, the person who I've become, the career I have today, become, the career I have today, become, the career I have today, I don't think any of those things would I don't think any of those things would I don't think any of those things would have happened if my dad was still alive. have happened if my dad was still alive. have happened if my dad was still alive. It doesn't mean I don't love my dad. It It doesn't mean I don't love my dad. It It doesn't mean I don't love my dad. It doesn't mean I don't wish my dad was doesn't mean I don't wish my dad was doesn't mean I don't wish my dad was still here. Yes, I do. And at the same still here. Yes, I do. And at the same still here. Yes, I do. And at the same time, I have chosen to believe. And time, I have chosen to believe. And time, I have chosen to believe. And that's the thing about beliefs. I'm not that's the thing about beliefs. I'm not that's the thing about beliefs. I'm not asking anyone else to believe that. But asking anyone else to believe that. But asking anyone else to believe that. But I have chosen to believe that actually, I have chosen to believe that actually, I have chosen to believe that actually, you know what, that's in many ways a you know what, that's in many ways a you know what, that's in many ways a gift that my father gave to me and that gift that my father gave to me and that gift that my father gave to me and that helps me move on with my life and helps me move on with my life and helps me move on with my life and navigate that change. So, I said quite a navigate that change. So, I said quite a navigate that change. So, I said quite a few things there, uh, Maya. And um yeah, few things there, uh, Maya. And um yeah, few things there, uh, Maya. And um yeah, I I was just trying to I guess in some I I was just trying to I guess in some I I was just trying to I guess in some ways get your take on that because ways get your take on that because ways get your take on that because absolutely that is change absolutely that is change absolutely that is change >> and I think that really does speak to >> and I think that really does speak to >> and I think that really does speak to some of these ideas in the book that some of these ideas in the book that some of these ideas in the book that that change you know what did you say that change you know what did you say that change you know what did you say right at the start you said you know right at the start you said you know right at the start you said you know when an unexpected change happens to us when an unexpected change happens to us when an unexpected change happens to us it can inspire lasting change within us. it can inspire lasting change within us. it can inspire lasting change within us. Well that's what's happened through my Well that's what's happened through my Well that's what's happened through my dad's death. dad's death. dad's death. >> Yeah. Thank you so much for sharing >> Yeah. Thank you so much for sharing >> Yeah. Thank you so much for sharing that. It's a it's a deeply beautiful that. It's a it's a deeply beautiful that. It's a it's a deeply beautiful reflection and I think it speaks to the reflection and I think it speaks to the reflection and I think it speaks to the overarching thesis of overarching thesis of overarching thesis of the other side of change which is that the other side of change which is that the other side of change which is that our relationship to the events in our our relationship to the events in our our relationship to the events in our lives is an ongoing dialogue. It's an lives is an ongoing dialogue. It's an lives is an ongoing dialogue. It's an ongoing discussion. It is not fixed in ongoing discussion. It is not fixed in ongoing discussion. It is not fixed in stone. And I think you have seen that stone. And I think you have seen that stone. And I think you have seen that progression happen within yourself since progression happen within yourself since progression happen within yourself since your dad's death. Right? the symbolism, your dad's death. Right? the symbolism, your dad's death. Right? the symbolism, the meaning it's taken on, the way that the meaning it's taken on, the way that the meaning it's taken on, the way that you think about the experience you think about the experience you think about the experience emotionally has shifted dramatically. emotionally has shifted dramatically. emotionally has shifted dramatically. >> One of the simplest ways to improve your >> One of the simplest ways to improve your >> One of the simplest ways to improve your whole body health is to start with your whole body health is to start with your whole body health is to start with your feet. Now, most of us don't realize feet. Now, most of us don't realize feet. Now, most of us don't realize this, but 95% of us are born with this, but 95% of us are born with this, but 95% of us are born with healthy feet. And by adulthood, 77% of healthy feet. And by adulthood, 77% of healthy feet. And by adulthood, 77% of us have foot problems. And a big reason us have foot problems. And a big reason us have foot problems. And a big reason is the shoes that we wear. Now, most is the shoes that we wear. Now, most is the shoes that we wear. Now, most modern shoes are rigid, narrow, and over modern shoes are rigid, narrow, and over modern shoes are rigid, narrow, and over cushioned, which ends up weakening the cushioned, which ends up weakening the cushioned, which ends up weakening the very muscles that support our posture, very muscles that support our posture, very muscles that support our posture, balance, and movement. That's why I have balance, and movement. That's why I have balance, and movement. That's why I have been wearing Vivo Barefoot shoes for been wearing Vivo Barefoot shoes for been wearing Vivo Barefoot shoes for over 10 years now. They're designed for over 10 years now. They're designed for over 10 years now. They're designed for fit, flex, and feel to let your feet do fit, flex, and feel to let your feet do fit, flex, and feel to let your feet do what human feet have evolved to do. And what human feet have evolved to do. And what human feet have evolved to do. And studies show that wearing minimalist studies show that wearing minimalist studies show that wearing minimalist footwear like Vivos can increase foot footwear like Vivos can increase foot footwear like Vivos can increase foot strength by up to 60% in just 6 months, strength by up to 60% in just 6 months, strength by up to 60% in just 6 months, which can improve balance, posture, and which can improve balance, posture, and which can improve balance, posture, and the way in which you move. Now, if the way in which you move. Now, if the way in which you move. Now, if you've never tried barefoot shoes you've never tried barefoot shoes you've never tried barefoot shoes before, Vivo Barefoot make it really before, Vivo Barefoot make it really before, Vivo Barefoot make it really easy. They offer a 100day money back easy. They offer a 100day money back easy. They offer a 100day money back guarantee, so you can wear them, live in guarantee, so you can wear them, live in guarantee, so you can wear them, live in them, move naturally, and if they're not them, move naturally, and if they're not them, move naturally, and if they're not for you, just send them back. No risk at for you, just send them back. No risk at for you, just send them back. No risk at all. Vivo Barefoot are offering you an all. Vivo Barefoot are offering you an all. Vivo Barefoot are offering you an incredible 15% off your first order. incredible 15% off your first order. incredible 15% off your first order. Just scan the QR code on screen or head Just scan the QR code on screen or head Just scan the QR code on screen or head to vivobarefoot.com/livemore. Free your feet and the rest will follow. Free your feet and the rest will follow. We all know that moving our bodies more We all know that moving our bodies more We all know that moving our bodies more is good for us. But despite that is good for us. But despite that is good for us. But despite that knowledge, many of us find it hard to knowledge, many of us find it hard to knowledge, many of us find it hard to actually implement. That's where the new actually implement. That's where the new actually implement. That's where the new Pelaton crossraining bike plus powered Pelaton crossraining bike plus powered Pelaton crossraining bike plus powered by Pelaton IQ can really help. It's by Pelaton IQ can really help. It's by Pelaton IQ can really help. It's built for fitness breakthroughs with built for fitness breakthroughs with built for fitness breakthroughs with realtime insights and endless ways to realtime insights and endless ways to realtime insights and endless ways to move. And you can go from cycling on the move. And you can go from cycling on the move. And you can go from cycling on the bike plus to strength training off it bike plus to strength training off it bike plus to strength training off it with one spin off the swivel screen with one spin off the swivel screen with one spin off the swivel screen while you lift. Pelon IQ counts reps, while you lift. Pelon IQ counts reps, while you lift. Pelon IQ counts reps, corrects your form, and suggests new corrects your form, and suggests new corrects your form, and suggests new weights so you're always making progress weights so you're always making progress weights so you're always making progress towards your goals. And Pelaton's towards your goals. And Pelaton's towards your goals. And Pelaton's movement tracking camera provides real movement tracking camera provides real movement tracking camera provides real time feedback so you can train safer, time feedback so you can train safer, time feedback so you can train safer, lift smarter, and make every move count lift smarter, and make every move count lift smarter, and make every move count more. With over 15 types of workouts, more. With over 15 types of workouts, more. With over 15 types of workouts, expert instructors to keep you motivated expert instructors to keep you motivated expert instructors to keep you motivated and a personalized plan tailored to your and a personalized plan tailored to your and a personalized plan tailored to your goals, the Cross Training Bike Plus goals, the Cross Training Bike Plus goals, the Cross Training Bike Plus takes the guesswork out of working out takes the guesswork out of working out takes the guesswork out of working out so you can move freely and let Pelaton so you can move freely and let Pelaton so you can move freely and let Pelaton handle the rest. Let yourself ride, handle the rest. Let yourself ride, handle the rest. Let yourself ride, lift, stretch, move, and go. Explore the lift, stretch, move, and go. Explore the lift, stretch, move, and go. Explore the new Pelaton Crossraining Bike Plus by new Pelaton Crossraining Bike Plus by new Pelaton Crossraining Bike Plus by clicking on the link below or by clicking on the link below or by clicking on the link below or by scanning the QR code on screen. scanning the QR code on screen. scanning the QR code on screen. >> I think my goal when writing this book >> I think my goal when writing this book >> I think my goal when writing this book was to show the power of even these was to show the power of even these was to show the power of even these small shifts in perspective. So, let me small shifts in perspective. So, let me small shifts in perspective. So, let me rewind a little bit. I mentioned that I rewind a little bit. I mentioned that I rewind a little bit. I mentioned that I struggled for years and years um with struggled for years and years um with struggled for years and years um with the challenge of not starting a family. the challenge of not starting a family. the challenge of not starting a family. And in my moments of despair and And in my moments of despair and And in my moments of despair and frustration, there was this mantra that frustration, there was this mantra that frustration, there was this mantra that would kind of play in my head that I would kind of play in my head that I would kind of play in my head that I would hear from people and I would see would hear from people and I would see would hear from people and I would see on social media and that I knew was on social media and that I knew was on social media and that I knew was rooted in ancient wisdom. But for me, it rooted in ancient wisdom. But for me, it rooted in ancient wisdom. But for me, it rung hollow. It's the idea that while we rung hollow. It's the idea that while we rung hollow. It's the idea that while we can't change what happens to us, we can can't change what happens to us, we can can't change what happens to us, we can change how we respond to what happens. change how we respond to what happens. change how we respond to what happens. It is meant to be empowering, but in my It is meant to be empowering, but in my It is meant to be empowering, but in my state, in my compromised mental state, I state, in my compromised mental state, I state, in my compromised mental state, I had no idea how to actually execute on had no idea how to actually execute on had no idea how to actually execute on this wisdom, on this guidance. It's not this wisdom, on this guidance. It's not this wisdom, on this guidance. It's not like there's a switch in my brain that I like there's a switch in my brain that I like there's a switch in my brain that I could just flip on that would suddenly could just flip on that would suddenly could just flip on that would suddenly make me feel more peaceful or more make me feel more peaceful or more make me feel more peaceful or more hopeful or more enlightened or more hopeful or more enlightened or more hopeful or more enlightened or more filled with a sense of possibility about filled with a sense of possibility about filled with a sense of possibility about what the future might hold. And so what the future might hold. And so what the future might hold. And so I desperately wanted to have a manual of I desperately wanted to have a manual of I desperately wanted to have a manual of sorts, a road map, some concrete sorts, a road map, some concrete sorts, a road map, some concrete strategies that I could use to actually strategies that I could use to actually strategies that I could use to actually feel and think differently about the feel and think differently about the feel and think differently about the changes that had happened in my life. changes that had happened in my life. changes that had happened in my life. And so that is why I actually wrote this And so that is why I actually wrote this And so that is why I actually wrote this book. It came from a deeply personal book. It came from a deeply personal book. It came from a deeply personal need need need to want to think and feel differently to want to think and feel differently to want to think and feel differently about the big changes in my life but to about the big changes in my life but to about the big changes in my life but to not know how. And so I have written this not know how. And so I have written this not know how. And so I have written this book for people who are not just in the book for people who are not just in the book for people who are not just in the throws of change right now, but for throws of change right now, but for throws of change right now, but for people like you, Renan, who are maybe people like you, Renan, who are maybe people like you, Renan, who are maybe looking to change their relationship looking to change their relationship looking to change their relationship with a past event to see it differently with a past event to see it differently with a past event to see it differently and also who are anxious about a future and also who are anxious about a future and also who are anxious about a future change, right? Are trying to renew their change, right? Are trying to renew their change, right? Are trying to renew their relationship with change altogether so relationship with change altogether so relationship with change altogether so that they can try and extract whatever that they can try and extract whatever that they can try and extract whatever meaning or possibility might lie within meaning or possibility might lie within meaning or possibility might lie within it. And so I went on this journey to it. And so I went on this journey to it. And so I went on this journey to find the most exceptional stories of find the most exceptional stories of find the most exceptional stories of change that I could worldwide, but change that I could worldwide, but change that I could worldwide, but importantly to find stories that had a importantly to find stories that had a importantly to find stories that had a universal lesson that lay within them. universal lesson that lay within them. universal lesson that lay within them. So, one of the things I love that you So, one of the things I love that you So, one of the things I love that you shared earlier on in this conversation shared earlier on in this conversation shared earlier on in this conversation that I wanted to comment on is that that I wanted to comment on is that that I wanted to comment on is that you found resonance in the you found you found resonance in the you found you found resonance in the you found personal resonance in the stories in personal resonance in the stories in personal resonance in the stories in this book despite the fact that they this book despite the fact that they this book despite the fact that they cover so much terrain, so much ground. cover so much terrain, so much ground. cover so much terrain, so much ground. There's such a diverse set of stories There's such a diverse set of stories There's such a diverse set of stories and I imagine that many of the actual and I imagine that many of the actual and I imagine that many of the actual experiences that my subjects went experiences that my subjects went experiences that my subjects went through are not experiences that you through are not experiences that you through are not experiences that you have gone through. And that was another have gone through. And that was another have gone through. And that was another really important lesson I wanted to really important lesson I wanted to really important lesson I wanted to capture in this book, which is that we capture in this book, which is that we capture in this book, which is that we are often instructed by others and by are often instructed by others and by are often instructed by others and by society to look for people in moments of society to look for people in moments of society to look for people in moments of stress who have gone through experiences stress who have gone through experiences stress who have gone through experiences that look like our own. that look like our own. that look like our own. >> So for example, oh, you're going through >> So for example, oh, you're going through >> So for example, oh, you're going through a divorce. Oh, I have a friend who went a divorce. Oh, I have a friend who went a divorce. Oh, I have a friend who went through a divorce. You should talk to through a divorce. You should talk to through a divorce. You should talk to them. Oh, you're navigating a loss. Oh, them. Oh, you're navigating a loss. Oh, them. Oh, you're navigating a loss. Oh, go to the berieved section of the go to the berieved section of the go to the berieved section of the bookstore. Oh, you're you're navigating bookstore. Oh, you're you're navigating bookstore. Oh, you're you're navigating an illness. Oh, here's a support group an illness. Oh, here's a support group an illness. Oh, here's a support group of other people who are going through of other people who are going through of other people who are going through illness. It is absolutely true that you illness. It is absolutely true that you illness. It is absolutely true that you can extract insight from those whose can extract insight from those whose can extract insight from those whose stories look like yours. But my argument stories look like yours. But my argument stories look like yours. But my argument as a cognitive scientist is that we all as a cognitive scientist is that we all as a cognitive scientist is that we all have a shared psychology. The stuff of have a shared psychology. The stuff of have a shared psychology. The stuff of change actually looks quite similar change actually looks quite similar change actually looks quite similar irrespective of the specifics of what irrespective of the specifics of what irrespective of the specifics of what we're navigating. we're navigating. we're navigating. We often are bristling at the unfairness We often are bristling at the unfairness We often are bristling at the unfairness of the world. We're grieving a past that of the world. We're grieving a past that of the world. We're grieving a past that is no longer available to us. We're is no longer available to us. We're is no longer available to us. We're anxious about our self-identities and anxious about our self-identities and anxious about our self-identities and who we can be in this new world. Maybe who we can be in this new world. Maybe who we can be in this new world. Maybe we're resentful. Maybe we're struggling we're resentful. Maybe we're struggling we're resentful. Maybe we're struggling to forgive someone. And so if the stuff to forgive someone. And so if the stuff to forgive someone. And so if the stuff of change is similar, then you can of change is similar, then you can of change is similar, then you can imagine that the solution set is going imagine that the solution set is going imagine that the solution set is going to be similar too, right? Problem to be similar too, right? Problem to be similar too, right? Problem statement, solution set. And so I statement, solution set. And so I statement, solution set. And so I remember having this insight first when remember having this insight first when remember having this insight first when I was interviewing I was interviewing I was interviewing a cancer patient a cancer patient a cancer patient and a woman who found out that her late and a woman who found out that her late and a woman who found out that her late husband had had a decadesl long affair husband had had a decadesl long affair husband had had a decadesl long affair and was realizing, oh my gosh, they're and was realizing, oh my gosh, they're and was realizing, oh my gosh, they're both navigating this deep feeling of both navigating this deep feeling of both navigating this deep feeling of betrayal. betrayal. betrayal. And so there was so much more that And so there was so much more that And so there was so much more that connected their stories than people connected their stories than people connected their stories than people might have thought. And so it touches me might have thought. And so it touches me might have thought. And so it touches me deeply. I just wanted to say as an deeply. I just wanted to say as an deeply. I just wanted to say as an author when you tell me that you found author when you tell me that you found author when you tell me that you found resonance in each of the stories, right? resonance in each of the stories, right? resonance in each of the stories, right? Even though one woman's locked has Even though one woman's locked has Even though one woman's locked has locked in syndrome and another person locked in syndrome and another person locked in syndrome and another person has amnesia and another person, you has amnesia and another person, you has amnesia and another person, you know, has this terrible accident, those know, has this terrible accident, those know, has this terrible accident, those are not necessarily things that are not necessarily things that are not necessarily things that >> remind you of your own life, but the >> remind you of your own life, but the >> remind you of your own life, but the psychological lessons are universal and psychological lessons are universal and psychological lessons are universal and there's something to learn from there's something to learn from there's something to learn from everyone's story. And I love this everyone's story. And I love this everyone's story. And I love this message because during a time of deep message because during a time of deep message because during a time of deep division and disconnection worldwide, it division and disconnection worldwide, it division and disconnection worldwide, it is a way of feeling closer to our fellow is a way of feeling closer to our fellow is a way of feeling closer to our fellow humans to remember that there is so much humans to remember that there is so much humans to remember that there is so much more that unifies us um than may more that unifies us um than may more that unifies us um than may separate us in this particular domain. separate us in this particular domain. separate us in this particular domain. >> One of the stories that >> One of the stories that >> One of the stories that resonated with me the most really speaks resonated with me the most really speaks resonated with me the most really speaks to that idea, Dwayne, who has been in to that idea, Dwayne, who has been in to that idea, Dwayne, who has been in prison, right? I've not been in prison prison, right? I've not been in prison prison, right? I've not been in prison yet. yet. yet. >> His struggle and the way he had to >> His struggle and the way he had to >> His struggle and the way he had to reimagine a future self for him compared reimagine a future self for him compared reimagine a future self for him compared to the self that he had previously to the self that he had previously to the self that he had previously imagined imagined imagined was so beautiful particularly when you was so beautiful particularly when you was so beautiful particularly when you bring in that concept of moral bring in that concept of moral bring in that concept of moral elevation. So yeah, maybe talk to me elevation. So yeah, maybe talk to me elevation. So yeah, maybe talk to me about Dwayne a little bit and and tell about Dwayne a little bit and and tell about Dwayne a little bit and and tell us what we can learn from Dwayne's us what we can learn from Dwayne's us what we can learn from Dwayne's story. story. story. Psychologists have this notion of Psychologists have this notion of Psychologists have this notion of possible selves and they come in three possible selves and they come in three possible selves and they come in three forms. There are hoped for selves which forms. There are hoped for selves which forms. There are hoped for selves which reflect our dreams and aspirations. reflect our dreams and aspirations. reflect our dreams and aspirations. There are feared selves which reflect There are feared selves which reflect There are feared selves which reflect our worries and anxieties. And then our worries and anxieties. And then our worries and anxieties. And then there are our expected selves which there are our expected selves which there are our expected selves which reflect our expectations of what is reflect our expectations of what is reflect our expectations of what is likely to happen, good or bad. So yes, likely to happen, good or bad. So yes, likely to happen, good or bad. So yes, maybe I want to be Taylor Swift one day, maybe I want to be Taylor Swift one day, maybe I want to be Taylor Swift one day, but more likely than not, Rangan, I'm but more likely than not, Rangan, I'm but more likely than not, Rangan, I'm going to be a cognitive scientist in 10 going to be a cognitive scientist in 10 going to be a cognitive scientist in 10 years. Okay, so I think so many of us years. Okay, so I think so many of us years. Okay, so I think so many of us can relate to the experience of an can relate to the experience of an can relate to the experience of an unexpected change coming our way and unexpected change coming our way and unexpected change coming our way and many doors closing that were once open many doors closing that were once open many doors closing that were once open to us. This is exactly what happened to to us. This is exactly what happened to to us. This is exactly what happened to Dwayne Betts. So when Dwayne was 16, he Dwayne Betts. So when Dwayne was 16, he Dwayne Betts. So when Dwayne was 16, he was sentenced to 9 years in adult prison was sentenced to 9 years in adult prison was sentenced to 9 years in adult prison for a carjacking that he committed. for a carjacking that he committed. for a carjacking that he committed. He had had such a promising future. He He had had such a promising future. He He had had such a promising future. He was voted class treasurer. He was was voted class treasurer. He was was voted class treasurer. He was identified as talented and gifted. He identified as talented and gifted. He identified as talented and gifted. He was hoping to study engineering at was hoping to study engineering at was hoping to study engineering at Georgia Tech. He was such a devoted and Georgia Tech. He was such a devoted and Georgia Tech. He was such a devoted and loving son to his mother. And yet one loving son to his mother. And yet one loving son to his mother. And yet one evening, he was so eager to prove his evening, he was so eager to prove his evening, he was so eager to prove his strength and machismo to the boys in his strength and machismo to the boys in his strength and machismo to the boys in his neighborhood. And so he committed this neighborhood. And so he committed this neighborhood. And so he committed this horrible crime. horrible crime. horrible crime. As you can imagine, Dwayne experienced As you can imagine, Dwayne experienced As you can imagine, Dwayne experienced his world shrink in that moment, right? his world shrink in that moment, right? his world shrink in that moment, right? So, all of these futures that he had So, all of these futures that he had So, all of these futures that he had once imagined for himself were no longer once imagined for himself were no longer once imagined for himself were no longer accessible. And Dwayne describes the accessible. And Dwayne describes the accessible. And Dwayne describes the fact that he wasn't just mourning the fact that he wasn't just mourning the fact that he wasn't just mourning the loss of those future selves. He was also loss of those future selves. He was also loss of those future selves. He was also so fearful of who he might become within so fearful of who he might become within so fearful of who he might become within the walls of prison. He worried for the the walls of prison. He worried for the the walls of prison. He worried for the first time, am I going to develop a first time, am I going to develop a first time, am I going to develop a gambling addiction? Am I going to become gambling addiction? Am I going to become gambling addiction? Am I going to become an addict? Am I going to become violent? an addict? Am I going to become violent? an addict? Am I going to become violent? Am I going to be able to protect myself Am I going to be able to protect myself Am I going to be able to protect myself from violence? All of these thoughts from violence? All of these thoughts from violence? All of these thoughts were swirling around in his mind. And were swirling around in his mind. And were swirling around in his mind. And what research shows, Runan, is that we what research shows, Runan, is that we what research shows, Runan, is that we can actually needlessly constrain can actually needlessly constrain can actually needlessly constrain ourselves when it comes to imagining ourselves when it comes to imagining ourselves when it comes to imagining what the future can hold for us even in what the future can hold for us even in what the future can hold for us even in our newly constrained environments. And our newly constrained environments. And our newly constrained environments. And that's because we have all sorts of that's because we have all sorts of that's because we have all sorts of prejudices. We have all sorts of prejudices. We have all sorts of prejudices. We have all sorts of stereotypes that we attach to certain stereotypes that we attach to certain stereotypes that we attach to certain roles or labels in this world. So we roles or labels in this world. So we roles or labels in this world. So we might have limited we might have a very might have limited we might have a very might have limited we might have a very limited understanding of the kinds of limited understanding of the kinds of limited understanding of the kinds of futures that are available to a high futures that are available to a high futures that are available to a high school dropout or a teen mom or a school dropout or a teen mom or a school dropout or a teen mom or a caregiver or someone with a chronic caregiver or someone with a chronic caregiver or someone with a chronic illness or in Dwayne's case someone who illness or in Dwayne's case someone who illness or in Dwayne's case someone who is incarcerated. is incarcerated. is incarcerated. And one of the ways that we can actually And one of the ways that we can actually And one of the ways that we can actually crack open our imagination of what we crack open our imagination of what we crack open our imagination of what we are capable of in our new environment is are capable of in our new environment is are capable of in our new environment is this concept of moral elevation. this concept of moral elevation. this concept of moral elevation. Moral elevation is the warm fuzzy Moral elevation is the warm fuzzy Moral elevation is the warm fuzzy feeling we get in our chest when we feeling we get in our chest when we feeling we get in our chest when we witness someone else's extraordinary witness someone else's extraordinary witness someone else's extraordinary behaviors or actions. M. behaviors or actions. M. behaviors or actions. M. >> So that might be their courage or >> So that might be their courage or >> So that might be their courage or kindness or self-sacrifice or wisdom or kindness or self-sacrifice or wisdom or kindness or self-sacrifice or wisdom or fortitude or resilience or ability to fortitude or resilience or ability to fortitude or resilience or ability to forgive others. Whatever outstanding forgive others. Whatever outstanding forgive others. Whatever outstanding character trait it is, this can inspire character trait it is, this can inspire character trait it is, this can inspire this warm feeling within ourselves. But this warm feeling within ourselves. But this warm feeling within ourselves. But really critically, moral elevation really critically, moral elevation really critically, moral elevation doesn't just make us feel good about doesn't just make us feel good about doesn't just make us feel good about humanity. It actually rewires our humanity. It actually rewires our humanity. It actually rewires our brains. And that's because in witnessing brains. And that's because in witnessing brains. And that's because in witnessing other people violate our expectations, other people violate our expectations, other people violate our expectations, our understanding of what humans are our understanding of what humans are our understanding of what humans are capable of in the best way possible, it capable of in the best way possible, it capable of in the best way possible, it actually cracks open our own imagination actually cracks open our own imagination actually cracks open our own imagination about what we are capable of. about what we are capable of. about what we are capable of. And so going back to Dwayne's story, it And so going back to Dwayne's story, it And so going back to Dwayne's story, it was actually an experience of moral was actually an experience of moral was actually an experience of moral elevation that completely changed the elevation that completely changed the elevation that completely changed the trajectory of Dwayne's life. trajectory of Dwayne's life. trajectory of Dwayne's life. Dwayne encountered a fellow prisoner Dwayne encountered a fellow prisoner Dwayne encountered a fellow prisoner named Balal named Balal named Balal about a year or so into his time in about a year or so into his time in about a year or so into his time in prison. And Bal in Dwayne's mind defied prison. And Bal in Dwayne's mind defied prison. And Bal in Dwayne's mind defied his understanding of what it meant to be his understanding of what it meant to be his understanding of what it meant to be a prisoner and how you had to be in a prisoner and how you had to be in a prisoner and how you had to be in order to survive prison. Dwayne had order to survive prison. Dwayne had order to survive prison. Dwayne had believed that you needed to be believed that you needed to be believed that you needed to be ruthlessly self-interested, that you had ruthlessly self-interested, that you had ruthlessly self-interested, that you had to keep all your cards close to the to keep all your cards close to the to keep all your cards close to the chest, that you had to be a certain way. chest, that you had to be a certain way. chest, that you had to be a certain way. But Bal acted in ways that defied this. But Bal acted in ways that defied this. But Bal acted in ways that defied this. He went out of his way to protect the He went out of his way to protect the He went out of his way to protect the younger prisoners. He taught them how to younger prisoners. He taught them how to younger prisoners. He taught them how to box to protect themselves from the box to protect themselves from the box to protect themselves from the threat of violence in prison. He threat of violence in prison. He threat of violence in prison. He actively played a mentorship role for actively played a mentorship role for actively played a mentorship role for the younger boys. He woke up an hour or the younger boys. He woke up an hour or the younger boys. He woke up an hour or two before count time and did 250 two before count time and did 250 two before count time and did 250 push-ups in his prison cell even before push-ups in his prison cell even before push-ups in his prison cell even before the guards came by. He would iron his the guards came by. He would iron his the guards came by. He would iron his prison uniform every single morning. He prison uniform every single morning. He prison uniform every single morning. He made sure that he was clean shaven each made sure that he was clean shaven each made sure that he was clean shaven each and every day. Dwayne says that Bal and every day. Dwayne says that Bal and every day. Dwayne says that Bal carried himself like a man in uniform, carried himself like a man in uniform, carried himself like a man in uniform, that he showed Dwayne what it meant to that he showed Dwayne what it meant to that he showed Dwayne what it meant to be lovely. And by the way, those words be lovely. And by the way, those words be lovely. And by the way, those words still give me tingles when I hear them. still give me tingles when I hear them. still give me tingles when I hear them. Um, Um, Um, to Dwayne, Bal showed him that maybe he to Dwayne, Bal showed him that maybe he to Dwayne, Bal showed him that maybe he didn't have to be a certain way just didn't have to be a certain way just didn't have to be a certain way just because he was a prisoner. Maybe there because he was a prisoner. Maybe there because he was a prisoner. Maybe there were other futures available to him. were other futures available to him. were other futures available to him. >> Yeah. And so it was with this empowered >> Yeah. And so it was with this empowered >> Yeah. And so it was with this empowered mindset that when Dwayne encountered a mindset that when Dwayne encountered a mindset that when Dwayne encountered a book of poetry in his prison cell a book of poetry in his prison cell a book of poetry in his prison cell a couple weeks later and read one poem in couple weeks later and read one poem in couple weeks later and read one poem in particular that spoke to the experience particular that spoke to the experience particular that spoke to the experience of young boys of color in the prison of young boys of color in the prison of young boys of color in the prison system. Dwayne for the first time system. Dwayne for the first time system. Dwayne for the first time realized, hey wait, maybe I could be a realized, hey wait, maybe I could be a realized, hey wait, maybe I could be a poet. I can't do what Bal does for the poet. I can't do what Bal does for the poet. I can't do what Bal does for the younger boys in prison. I'm I'm not younger boys in prison. I'm I'm not younger boys in prison. I'm I'm not strong. I don't know how to box. I can't strong. I don't know how to box. I can't strong. I don't know how to box. I can't protect them in that way. But I can protect them in that way. But I can protect them in that way. But I can dignify their experiences through dignify their experiences through dignify their experiences through writing, which was a gift that he knew writing, which was a gift that he knew writing, which was a gift that he knew he had. Fast forward a few decades, he had. Fast forward a few decades, he had. Fast forward a few decades, today, Dwayne is a graduate of Yale Law today, Dwayne is a graduate of Yale Law today, Dwayne is a graduate of Yale Law School. He's a MacArthur Genius Prize School. He's a MacArthur Genius Prize School. He's a MacArthur Genius Prize winner, and he writes some of the most winner, and he writes some of the most winner, and he writes some of the most beautiful, stirring poetry that I've beautiful, stirring poetry that I've beautiful, stirring poetry that I've ever read that dignifies the experiences ever read that dignifies the experiences ever read that dignifies the experiences of young men of color in the prison of young men of color in the prison of young men of color in the prison system. and he credits this entire system. and he credits this entire system. and he credits this entire transformation to that one experience of transformation to that one experience of transformation to that one experience of moral elevation that he had within the moral elevation that he had within the moral elevation that he had within the walls of prison. And I just find that to walls of prison. And I just find that to walls of prison. And I just find that to be such a beautiful moving story because be such a beautiful moving story because be such a beautiful moving story because moral elevation is something that is moral elevation is something that is moral elevation is something that is available to all of us. It is actually available to all of us. It is actually available to all of us. It is actually all around us all the time. If we are all around us all the time. If we are all around us all the time. If we are just intentional and we are observant just intentional and we are observant just intentional and we are observant and we put our phones down and we just and we put our phones down and we just and we put our phones down and we just witness the world around us. witness the world around us. witness the world around us. >> It's such a beautiful story. >> It's such a beautiful story. >> It's such a beautiful story. I I love it because it made me think I I love it because it made me think I I love it because it made me think that that that as well as helping someone like Dwayne as well as helping someone like Dwayne as well as helping someone like Dwayne or helping us navigate change. I think or helping us navigate change. I think or helping us navigate change. I think we can also flip it Maya and and think we can also flip it Maya and and think we can also flip it Maya and and think about our ourselves and go about our ourselves and go about our ourselves and go >> well the way we conduct ourselves is >> well the way we conduct ourselves is >> well the way we conduct ourselves is really really important because you really really important because you really really important because you never know when someone's going to never know when someone's going to never know when someone's going to witness you doing an act of kindness witness you doing an act of kindness witness you doing an act of kindness acting in alignment with your values acting in alignment with your values acting in alignment with your values doing the right thing when it would be doing the right thing when it would be doing the right thing when it would be easy to do the wrong thing or the easy to do the wrong thing or the easy to do the wrong thing or the dishonest thing like it's very very dishonest thing like it's very very dishonest thing like it's very very inspiring. It makes me want to be a inspiring. It makes me want to be a inspiring. It makes me want to be a better person when I hear stories like better person when I hear stories like better person when I hear stories like that. that. that. >> Me too. Um, and I want to share that one >> Me too. Um, and I want to share that one >> Me too. Um, and I want to share that one of my favorite aspects of moral of my favorite aspects of moral of my favorite aspects of moral elevation is that it does transcend elevation is that it does transcend elevation is that it does transcend circumstances and the specific thing circumstances and the specific thing circumstances and the specific thing you're trying to improve within you're trying to improve within you're trying to improve within yourself. So you might witness an yourself. So you might witness an yourself. So you might witness an extraordinary act of forgiveness in extraordinary act of forgiveness in extraordinary act of forgiveness in someone else and you might not be someone else and you might not be someone else and you might not be looking to forgive someone in your life looking to forgive someone in your life looking to forgive someone in your life but maybe inspires you to expand your but maybe inspires you to expand your but maybe inspires you to expand your sense of empathy for others. Maybe it sense of empathy for others. Maybe it sense of empathy for others. Maybe it leads you to be a kinder person. Maybe leads you to be a kinder person. Maybe leads you to be a kinder person. Maybe it inspires you to be a more resilient it inspires you to be a more resilient it inspires you to be a more resilient person. And so the impact is far it the person. And so the impact is far it the person. And so the impact is far it the impact is can be widespread when it impact is can be widespread when it impact is can be widespread when it comes to you and your life overall. And comes to you and your life overall. And comes to you and your life overall. And I love that because I might just be I love that because I might just be I love that because I might just be walking down the street or I might be at walking down the street or I might be at walking down the street or I might be at the coffee shop and I witness a the coffee shop and I witness a the coffee shop and I witness a barista's kindness to one of the patrons barista's kindness to one of the patrons barista's kindness to one of the patrons who's obviously having a bad day. who's obviously having a bad day. who's obviously having a bad day. >> And then maybe I go to work and again >> And then maybe I go to work and again >> And then maybe I go to work and again it's not necessarily kindness that it's not necessarily kindness that it's not necessarily kindness that >> this experience of moral elevation leads >> this experience of moral elevation leads >> this experience of moral elevation leads me to tap into, but it's some other me to tap into, but it's some other me to tap into, but it's some other character trait um that it leads me to character trait um that it leads me to character trait um that it leads me to tap into. And so the effect is profound tap into. And so the effect is profound tap into. And so the effect is profound and I have really made it a point to and I have really made it a point to and I have really made it a point to try and welcome moral elevation into my try and welcome moral elevation into my try and welcome moral elevation into my life each and every day. life each and every day. life each and every day. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Because I have found it to be omniresent >> Because I have found it to be omniresent >> Because I have found it to be omniresent and it is a wonderful counterforce to and it is a wonderful counterforce to and it is a wonderful counterforce to all the negativity that we experience all the negativity that we experience all the negativity that we experience when we turn on the news, when we read when we turn on the news, when we read when we turn on the news, when we read the newspaper, right? the newspaper, right? the newspaper, right? >> We just get bombarded by the worst of >> We just get bombarded by the worst of >> We just get bombarded by the worst of humanity sometimes when we engage in humanity sometimes when we engage in humanity sometimes when we engage in those experiences. And to know that we those experiences. And to know that we those experiences. And to know that we can reclaim can reclaim can reclaim some of our optimism and our hope and some of our optimism and our hope and some of our optimism and our hope and our joy about the future of humanity our joy about the future of humanity our joy about the future of humanity from these everyday moments, from these from these everyday moments, from these from these everyday moments, from these small seemingly small moments in the small seemingly small moments in the small seemingly small moments in the life of someone else, but it has a life of someone else, but it has a life of someone else, but it has a profound outsiz impact on the recipient, profound outsiz impact on the recipient, profound outsiz impact on the recipient, on the observer of that action. It it it on the observer of that action. It it it on the observer of that action. It it it is profound. Um it it's beautiful. I is profound. Um it it's beautiful. I is profound. Um it it's beautiful. I guess what Dwayne or one of the things guess what Dwayne or one of the things guess what Dwayne or one of the things Dwayne saw in Ble was Dwayne saw in Ble was Dwayne saw in Ble was even though I'm in prison and even even though I'm in prison and even even though I'm in prison and even there's many people around me who are there's many people around me who are there's many people around me who are being aggressive and are not being nice being aggressive and are not being nice being aggressive and are not being nice and you know are adapting to try and and you know are adapting to try and and you know are adapting to try and survive in this situation. survive in this situation. survive in this situation. I don't have to end up like that. And I don't have to end up like that. And I don't have to end up like that. And the reason I know that is because Bel the reason I know that is because Bel the reason I know that is because Bel hasn't ended up like that. hasn't ended up like that. hasn't ended up like that. >> That's exactly right. Dwayne says at one >> That's exactly right. Dwayne says at one >> That's exactly right. Dwayne says at one point, Balal was saying, "This is my point, Balal was saying, "This is my point, Balal was saying, "This is my identity." And what I love about that identity." And what I love about that identity." And what I love about that quote is it reminds us we actually each quote is it reminds us we actually each quote is it reminds us we actually each have agency in our new environments. We have agency in our new environments. We have agency in our new environments. We can choose who we want to be. We can can choose who we want to be. We can can choose who we want to be. We can reject the stereotypes, reject the stereotypes, reject the stereotypes, the cultural expectations of us, what the cultural expectations of us, what the cultural expectations of us, what society thinks we are destined to society thinks we are destined to society thinks we are destined to become, and we can carve our own path become, and we can carve our own path become, and we can carve our own path and say, "No, I'm resisting whatever and say, "No, I'm resisting whatever and say, "No, I'm resisting whatever norms might exist out there, whatever norms might exist out there, whatever norms might exist out there, whatever expectations might exist, and I'm expectations might exist, and I'm expectations might exist, and I'm deciding this is who I'm going to be deciding this is who I'm going to be deciding this is who I'm going to be right now." And I love that sense of right now." And I love that sense of right now." And I love that sense of empowerment so much because while I empowerment so much because while I empowerment so much because while I would love to say that I wrote this book would love to say that I wrote this book would love to say that I wrote this book and on the other side I'm thinking I and on the other side I'm thinking I and on the other side I'm thinking I don't need control anymore in my life. don't need control anymore in my life. don't need control anymore in my life. I'm good. I have achieved a Buddhistlike I'm good. I have achieved a Buddhistlike I'm good. I have achieved a Buddhistlike state. Of course, I still want to feel state. Of course, I still want to feel state. Of course, I still want to feel control. And at a minimum, what I'm control. And at a minimum, what I'm control. And at a minimum, what I'm hoping the other side of change does is hoping the other side of change does is hoping the other side of change does is it allows people to reclaim the agency it allows people to reclaim the agency it allows people to reclaim the agency they still have in their new their new they still have in their new their new they still have in their new their new circumstances. So, yes, they can't circumstances. So, yes, they can't circumstances. So, yes, they can't change the cancer diagnosis. They can't change the cancer diagnosis. They can't change the cancer diagnosis. They can't change the loss of someone. They can't change the loss of someone. They can't change the loss of someone. They can't change the loss of a job. They can't change the loss of a job. They can't change the loss of a job. They can't change that um maybe there was a change that um maybe there was a change that um maybe there was a betrayal by a friend. But what I'm betrayal by a friend. But what I'm betrayal by a friend. But what I'm arguing is that they can change what's arguing is that they can change what's arguing is that they can change what's up in here through these sciencebacked up in here through these sciencebacked up in here through these sciencebacked strategies or reframes or perspective strategies or reframes or perspective strategies or reframes or perspective shifts or thought experiments. shifts or thought experiments. shifts or thought experiments. You shared in that chapter your own You shared in that chapter your own You shared in that chapter your own experience of moral elevation when I experience of moral elevation when I experience of moral elevation when I think it was the shooting of Nadine think it was the shooting of Nadine think it was the shooting of Nadine Collier's mom and correct you saw her I Collier's mom and correct you saw her I Collier's mom and correct you saw her I think on television say think on television say think on television say >> I think to the killer >> I think to the killer >> I think to the killer you took something precious from me but you took something precious from me but you took something precious from me but I forgive you. I forgive you. I forgive you. It was it again it was one of those It was it again it was one of those It was it again it was one of those where you you stop reading and go wow. where you you stop reading and go wow. where you you stop reading and go wow. It it shows you it inspires you to know It it shows you it inspires you to know It it shows you it inspires you to know what people are capable of. Her mother what people are capable of. Her mother what people are capable of. Her mother has been murdered and yet still very has been murdered and yet still very has been murdered and yet still very soon after she's able to forgive the soon after she's able to forgive the soon after she's able to forgive the killer despite what has been done. killer despite what has been done. killer despite what has been done. Right. So it's very very inspiring. Right. So it's very very inspiring. Right. So it's very very inspiring. What do you think witnessing that act of What do you think witnessing that act of What do you think witnessing that act of moral elevation did for you? moral elevation did for you? moral elevation did for you? >> Yes. This was in response to >> Yes. This was in response to >> Yes. This was in response to the horrific shooting at Mother Emanuel the horrific shooting at Mother Emanuel the horrific shooting at Mother Emanuel Church in South Carolina. Church in South Carolina. Church in South Carolina. Um, and as you mentioned, the daughter Um, and as you mentioned, the daughter Um, and as you mentioned, the daughter of one of the victims extended of one of the victims extended of one of the victims extended forgiveness to the racist killer in the forgiveness to the racist killer in the forgiveness to the racist killer in the courtroom. And courtroom. And courtroom. And I was so moved by I was so moved by I was so moved by Naen's capacity for forgiveness. I mean, Naen's capacity for forgiveness. I mean, Naen's capacity for forgiveness. I mean, it was stunning to me. I mean to to this it was stunning to me. I mean to to this it was stunning to me. I mean to to this day reflecting on that experience I I day reflecting on that experience I I day reflecting on that experience I I get chills through my spine and get chills through my spine and get chills through my spine and my brain almost struggles to assimilate my brain almost struggles to assimilate my brain almost struggles to assimilate that information. I feel like I have to that information. I feel like I have to that information. I feel like I have to in fact this is what moral elevation in fact this is what moral elevation in fact this is what moral elevation does. It it forces you to update your does. It it forces you to update your does. It it forces you to update your mental models of what humans are capable mental models of what humans are capable mental models of what humans are capable of. Yeah. of. Yeah. of. Yeah. >> And I would say that what Naen did for >> And I would say that what Naen did for >> And I would say that what Naen did for me through her example is me through her example is me through her example is inspired me to think I am capable inspired me to think I am capable inspired me to think I am capable of so much more than I have currently of so much more than I have currently of so much more than I have currently given to humanity and to others. given to humanity and to others. given to humanity and to others. that whatever I believe my limits are that whatever I believe my limits are that whatever I believe my limits are when it comes to empathy or kindness or when it comes to empathy or kindness or when it comes to empathy or kindness or compassion or or forgiveness compassion or or forgiveness compassion or or forgiveness raised the bar significantly Maya raised the bar significantly Maya raised the bar significantly Maya because that is what Nate has shown you because that is what Nate has shown you because that is what Nate has shown you is possible and so you carry that with is possible and so you carry that with is possible and so you carry that with you and the thing about moral elevation you and the thing about moral elevation you and the thing about moral elevation is you don't know when it will play out is you don't know when it will play out is you don't know when it will play out you don't know when that influence will you don't know when that influence will you don't know when that influence will will reveal itself um but then as you will reveal itself um but then as you will reveal itself um but then as you live your life you realize oh in this live your life you realize oh in this live your life you realize oh in this moment I'm being asked to show more moment I'm being asked to show more moment I'm being asked to show more compassion than I might be comfortable compassion than I might be comfortable compassion than I might be comfortable with, with, with, >> but I have Naen now in the back of my >> but I have Naen now in the back of my >> but I have Naen now in the back of my head reminding me that I actually am head reminding me that I actually am head reminding me that I actually am capable of more compassion. Yeah. Right. capable of more compassion. Yeah. Right. capable of more compassion. Yeah. Right. Or maybe I need to show more patience Or maybe I need to show more patience Or maybe I need to show more patience than I'm I feel I'm capable of showing. than I'm I feel I'm capable of showing. than I'm I feel I'm capable of showing. I'm a fairly impatient person. And I I'm a fairly impatient person. And I I'm a fairly impatient person. And I think no, no, no, you actually are think no, no, no, you actually are think no, no, no, you actually are capable of more patience. capable of more patience. capable of more patience. >> Yeah, I love that. In my last book, M I >> Yeah, I love that. In my last book, M I >> Yeah, I love that. In my last book, M I sort of tried to examine what a hero sort of tried to examine what a hero sort of tried to examine what a hero really is to us. And one of the things I really is to us. And one of the things I really is to us. And one of the things I concluded is that concluded is that concluded is that when we see someone who we regard as a when we see someone who we regard as a when we see someone who we regard as a hero or someone who really really hero or someone who really really hero or someone who really really inspires us, often it's because they inspires us, often it's because they inspires us, often it's because they reflect back to us something that we reflect back to us something that we reflect back to us something that we know we have within us. know we have within us. know we have within us. So instead of worshiping the totality of So instead of worshiping the totality of So instead of worshiping the totality of who that person is, it's trying to go who that person is, it's trying to go who that person is, it's trying to go what what is it this person is what what is it this person is what what is it this person is reflecting back to me that I know if I reflecting back to me that I know if I reflecting back to me that I know if I can cultivate it, I can bring out of me can cultivate it, I can bring out of me can cultivate it, I can bring out of me as well. And it kind of reminds me a as well. And it kind of reminds me a as well. And it kind of reminds me a little a little bit about that. Do do little a little bit about that. Do do little a little bit about that. Do do you think Maya one of the reasons we you think Maya one of the reasons we you think Maya one of the reasons we like like like films so much as a society, right? And films so much as a society, right? And films so much as a society, right? And of course there's different types of of course there's different types of of course there's different types of films, but often in films films, but often in films films, but often in films there is an uplifting component. You there is an uplifting component. You there is an uplifting component. You know, the hero does something truly know, the hero does something truly know, the hero does something truly wonderful, right? They they do the right wonderful, right? They they do the right wonderful, right? They they do the right thing, not the easy thing. Is that an thing, not the easy thing. Is that an thing, not the easy thing. Is that an example of moral elevation and why example of moral elevation and why example of moral elevation and why perhaps we're drawn to these feel-good perhaps we're drawn to these feel-good perhaps we're drawn to these feel-good films? films? films? Yeah, it's so interesting you mentioned Yeah, it's so interesting you mentioned Yeah, it's so interesting you mentioned that because some of the research that I that because some of the research that I that because some of the research that I did for this book explores the role that did for this book explores the role that did for this book explores the role that fiction broadly plays in cracking open fiction broadly plays in cracking open fiction broadly plays in cracking open our imagination about what is possible our imagination about what is possible our imagination about what is possible for us. So it is sometimes hard to for us. So it is sometimes hard to for us. So it is sometimes hard to invite moral elevation into your life at invite moral elevation into your life at invite moral elevation into your life at exactly the moment you need it. Right? exactly the moment you need it. Right? exactly the moment you need it. Right? And so I do advise people reflect on the And so I do advise people reflect on the And so I do advise people reflect on the past because you might actually have past because you might actually have past because you might actually have moments of moral elevation you've moments of moral elevation you've moments of moral elevation you've already experienced that could be already experienced that could be already experienced that could be helpful to you in this moment, but you helpful to you in this moment, but you helpful to you in this moment, but you can't exactly manufacture, you can't can't exactly manufacture, you can't can't exactly manufacture, you can't engineer that the moment of of engineer that the moment of of engineer that the moment of of inspiration that you need right now. And inspiration that you need right now. And inspiration that you need right now. And so what you can do actually is read so what you can do actually is read so what you can do actually is read fiction or I think the same insight fiction or I think the same insight fiction or I think the same insight would apply to watching movies. would apply to watching movies. would apply to watching movies. Researchers call fiction Researchers call fiction Researchers call fiction an identity laboratory. an identity laboratory. an identity laboratory. And that's because when we read about And that's because when we read about And that's because when we read about other people, or in your case with the other people, or in your case with the other people, or in your case with the film, we watch other people, we film, we watch other people, we film, we watch other people, we effortlessly blend our selfidentities effortlessly blend our selfidentities effortlessly blend our selfidentities with the character that we're reading with the character that we're reading with the character that we're reading about. about. about. >> And what this allows us to do is >> And what this allows us to do is >> And what this allows us to do is cultivate a psychologically safe space cultivate a psychologically safe space cultivate a psychologically safe space in which we can embody new personality in which we can embody new personality in which we can embody new personality traits. We can make maybe more risky traits. We can make maybe more risky traits. We can make maybe more risky decisions than we would otherwise feel decisions than we would otherwise feel decisions than we would otherwise feel comfortable making in our everyday life. comfortable making in our everyday life. comfortable making in our everyday life. We can try on for size different ways of We can try on for size different ways of We can try on for size different ways of being and moving about in this world and being and moving about in this world and being and moving about in this world and see what it feels like via this see what it feels like via this see what it feels like via this character or via our own imagination. character or via our own imagination. character or via our own imagination. And so I think you're you're exactly And so I think you're you're exactly And so I think you're you're exactly you're spot on. When we witness these you're spot on. When we witness these you're spot on. When we witness these beautiful acts in other people or when beautiful acts in other people or when beautiful acts in other people or when we just witness them making decisions we just witness them making decisions we just witness them making decisions that might not look like our own, it that might not look like our own, it that might not look like our own, it just pokes a little hole in our minds just pokes a little hole in our minds just pokes a little hole in our minds thinks, "Oh, wait a second. I kind of thinks, "Oh, wait a second. I kind of thinks, "Oh, wait a second. I kind of always thought that I would need to do X always thought that I would need to do X always thought that I would need to do X in circumstance Y, but maybe that's not in circumstance Y, but maybe that's not in circumstance Y, but maybe that's not the case. the case. the case. >> Maybe I could take a few more risks. >> Maybe I could take a few more risks. >> Maybe I could take a few more risks. Maybe I could make different decisions Maybe I could make different decisions Maybe I could make different decisions than I'm used to making and actually it than I'm used to making and actually it than I'm used to making and actually it would lead to great returns." And so I would lead to great returns." And so I would lead to great returns." And so I encourage people to in moments of encourage people to in moments of encourage people to in moments of inflection actually just pick up a inflection actually just pick up a inflection actually just pick up a fiction book. And what a delight because fiction book. And what a delight because fiction book. And what a delight because a lot of people love reading fiction. It a lot of people love reading fiction. It a lot of people love reading fiction. It turns out that there's huge cognitive turns out that there's huge cognitive turns out that there's huge cognitive science benefits to doing that. Um science benefits to doing that. Um science benefits to doing that. Um because again we get to explore new because again we get to explore new because again we get to explore new sides of ourselves without sides of ourselves without sides of ourselves without >> the risk that we might endure in >> the risk that we might endure in >> the risk that we might endure in everyday life. everyday life. everyday life. >> Yeah. It makes me think that moral >> Yeah. It makes me think that moral >> Yeah. It makes me think that moral elevation or witnessing these acts of elevation or witnessing these acts of elevation or witnessing these acts of courage and just courage and just courage and just frankly exquisite moral beauty frankly exquisite moral beauty frankly exquisite moral beauty can impact us in in a in in a couple of can impact us in in a in in a couple of can impact us in in a in in a couple of different ways. You you write about it different ways. You you write about it different ways. You you write about it in the book as a way of helping us deal in the book as a way of helping us deal in the book as a way of helping us deal with change. So Dwayne is struggling with change. So Dwayne is struggling with change. So Dwayne is struggling with his new scenario in life that he's with his new scenario in life that he's with his new scenario in life that he's in prison and witnessing this helps him in prison and witnessing this helps him in prison and witnessing this helps him navigate his change better. navigate his change better. navigate his change better. But as you were just talking and I But as you were just talking and I But as you were just talking and I thought, yeah, but it works the other thought, yeah, but it works the other thought, yeah, but it works the other way as well, doesn't it? We may not be way as well, doesn't it? We may not be way as well, doesn't it? We may not be looking for change. We may just be going looking for change. We may just be going looking for change. We may just be going about our day-to-day life and existing about our day-to-day life and existing about our day-to-day life and existing and witnessing moral elevation can and witnessing moral elevation can and witnessing moral elevation can actually inspire us to change. actually inspire us to change. actually inspire us to change. >> So, >> So, >> So, >> exactly, >> exactly, >> exactly, >> it can help us deal with unwanted >> it can help us deal with unwanted >> it can help us deal with unwanted change, but it can also inspire us to, I change, but it can also inspire us to, I change, but it can also inspire us to, I guess, choose a different path of change guess, choose a different path of change guess, choose a different path of change for us. So it's it's quite interesting for us. So it's it's quite interesting for us. So it's it's quite interesting to explore, isn't it? How how it affects to explore, isn't it? How how it affects to explore, isn't it? How how it affects us on multiple different levels. us on multiple different levels. us on multiple different levels. >> Yes. The birectional impact. I I love >> Yes. The birectional impact. I I love >> Yes. The birectional impact. I I love that you've just said this, Rangan, that you've just said this, Rangan, that you've just said this, Rangan, because one of my secret hopes for this because one of my secret hopes for this because one of my secret hopes for this book was that yes, it would help people book was that yes, it would help people book was that yes, it would help people who are navigating unexpected change, who are navigating unexpected change, who are navigating unexpected change, but I really wanted it to help people but I really wanted it to help people but I really wanted it to help people who are resistant to change or maybe who are resistant to change or maybe who are resistant to change or maybe just a little too comfortable with the just a little too comfortable with the just a little too comfortable with the status quo, aren't looking for any big status quo, aren't looking for any big status quo, aren't looking for any big shifts. I'm I'm in that current phase in shifts. I'm I'm in that current phase in shifts. I'm I'm in that current phase in my life. I'm like, please nothing. I my life. I'm like, please nothing. I my life. I'm like, please nothing. I would just like to maintain business as would just like to maintain business as would just like to maintain business as usual. Thank you very much, universe. usual. Thank you very much, universe. usual. Thank you very much, universe. And yet, we would actually benefit from And yet, we would actually benefit from And yet, we would actually benefit from inspiring a change in our own life. And inspiring a change in our own life. And inspiring a change in our own life. And we just need a little bit of that kick we just need a little bit of that kick we just need a little bit of that kick in the butt in order to make it happen. in the butt in order to make it happen. in the butt in order to make it happen. And it's been a joy actually to hear And it's been a joy actually to hear And it's been a joy actually to hear from readers of the book who said, "I from readers of the book who said, "I from readers of the book who said, "I wasn't looking to inspire any change, wasn't looking to inspire any change, wasn't looking to inspire any change, but then I read Dwayne's story or I read but then I read Dwayne's story or I read but then I read Dwayne's story or I read Tara's story or I read Ingred's story Tara's story or I read Ingred's story Tara's story or I read Ingred's story and they actually inspired me to and they actually inspired me to and they actually inspired me to initiate a new change in my life that initiate a new change in my life that initiate a new change in my life that maybe that was changing a job or maybe that was changing a job or maybe that was changing a job or changing the relationship they're in or changing the relationship they're in or changing the relationship they're in or um revisiting parts of their past that um revisiting parts of their past that um revisiting parts of their past that they never thought to revisit that they they never thought to revisit that they they never thought to revisit that they felt were holding them back." I actually felt were holding them back." I actually felt were holding them back." I actually just heard from Oh my god, I I just got just heard from Oh my god, I I just got just heard from Oh my god, I I just got this this um essay from a reader last this this um essay from a reader last this this um essay from a reader last night. Um he had unexpectedly lost his night. Um he had unexpectedly lost his night. Um he had unexpectedly lost his wife just 18 months ago. And reading the wife just 18 months ago. And reading the wife just 18 months ago. And reading the book led him to write who reflect on who book led him to write who reflect on who book led him to write who reflect on who he's become on the other side of change. he's become on the other side of change. he's become on the other side of change. And what was so beautiful about the And what was so beautiful about the And what was so beautiful about the essay that he wrote was that he didn't essay that he wrote was that he didn't essay that he wrote was that he didn't simply say this is how I'm rethinking my simply say this is how I'm rethinking my simply say this is how I'm rethinking my relationship with my grief or this relationship with my grief or this relationship with my grief or this experience, but he had all of these experience, but he had all of these experience, but he had all of these goals for who he wanted to become moving goals for who he wanted to become moving goals for who he wanted to become moving forward. New one of them was about like forward. New one of them was about like forward. New one of them was about like career shifts and how this might inform career shifts and how this might inform career shifts and how this might inform his next business ventures and his his next business ventures and his his next business ventures and his relationships with his kids. And I I relationships with his kids. And I I relationships with his kids. And I I just found that so such a beautiful just found that so such a beautiful just found that so such a beautiful expression again and one of my secret expression again and one of my secret expression again and one of my secret hopes for the book. And I was hoping to hopes for the book. And I was hoping to hopes for the book. And I was hoping to achieve that, but I I was, you know, achieve that, but I I was, you know, achieve that, but I I was, you know, obviously very humble about it. I didn't obviously very humble about it. I didn't obviously very humble about it. I didn't know whether it would have that effect. know whether it would have that effect. know whether it would have that effect. So, yeah, I just I just love your So, yeah, I just I just love your So, yeah, I just I just love your observation. observation. observation. >> That's that's wonderful to hear that >> That's that's wonderful to hear that >> That's that's wonderful to hear that it's already having such an impact on it's already having such an impact on it's already having such an impact on people. One of the biggest changes I've people. One of the biggest changes I've people. One of the biggest changes I've made over the past few months is to made over the past few months is to made over the past few months is to start each day using the way and I start each day using the way and I start each day using the way and I absolutely love it. Meditation has so absolutely love it. Meditation has so absolutely love it. Meditation has so many benefits for our physical health many benefits for our physical health many benefits for our physical health and our mental well-being, but only if and our mental well-being, but only if and our mental well-being, but only if we actually do it. And that's one of the we actually do it. And that's one of the we actually do it. And that's one of the reasons I love this app so much. It reasons I love this app so much. It reasons I love this app so much. It makes it really easy to establish a makes it really easy to establish a makes it really easy to establish a meditation practice that sticks. One of meditation practice that sticks. One of meditation practice that sticks. One of the most unique things about the Way is the most unique things about the Way is the most unique things about the Way is that it is a meditation app with no that it is a meditation app with no that it is a meditation app with no choice. They understand that too much choice. They understand that too much choice. They understand that too much choice is stressful and can lead to choice is stressful and can lead to choice is stressful and can lead to procrastination and indecision. So with procrastination and indecision. So with procrastination and indecision. So with the way you only ever have one choice the way you only ever have one choice the way you only ever have one choice which makes things really easy. Just which makes things really easy. Just which makes things really easy. Just open the app, follow the path and your open the app, follow the path and your open the app, follow the path and your transformation will unfold. Now there's transformation will unfold. Now there's transformation will unfold. Now there's no question that for me using the way no question that for me using the way no question that for me using the way every morning has helped me feel calmer, every morning has helped me feel calmer, every morning has helped me feel calmer, more relaxed, and it's also broadened my more relaxed, and it's also broadened my more relaxed, and it's also broadened my perspective on life and what is truly perspective on life and what is truly perspective on life and what is truly important. The creator of the app is important. The creator of the app is important. The creator of the app is Henry Shookman, a Zen master who has the Henry Shookman, a Zen master who has the Henry Shookman, a Zen master who has the most wonderful and relaxing voice. So, most wonderful and relaxing voice. So, most wonderful and relaxing voice. So, if you think 2026 is finally going to be if you think 2026 is finally going to be if you think 2026 is finally going to be the year where you start and stick to a the year where you start and stick to a the year where you start and stick to a meditation practice, I'd highly meditation practice, I'd highly meditation practice, I'd highly encourage you to check out The Way. And encourage you to check out The Way. And encourage you to check out The Way. And to give you a little extra motivation, to give you a little extra motivation, to give you a little extra motivation, The Way is offering my listeners 30 free The Way is offering my listeners 30 free The Way is offering my listeners 30 free sessions to get you started with your sessions to get you started with your sessions to get you started with your practice. That is a fantastic offer. practice. That is a fantastic offer. practice. That is a fantastic offer. What have you got to lose? To take What have you got to lose? To take What have you got to lose? To take advantage, either scan the QR code on advantage, either scan the QR code on advantage, either scan the QR code on screen or go to the wayapp.comlivemore and begin your journey towards peace, and begin your journey towards peace, calm, and purpose. calm, and purpose. calm, and purpose. >> I want to talk about rumination in just >> I want to talk about rumination in just >> I want to talk about rumination in just a moment because I think that's a moment because I think that's a moment because I think that's something that something that something that people really really struggle with and people really really struggle with and people really really struggle with and often go to when dealing with an often go to when dealing with an often go to when dealing with an unexpected change. But before we go unexpected change. But before we go unexpected change. But before we go there though, I just want to revisit the there though, I just want to revisit the there though, I just want to revisit the topic of death for a moment because topic of death for a moment because topic of death for a moment because this idea that our beliefs this idea that our beliefs this idea that our beliefs have a huge impact on how we deal with have a huge impact on how we deal with have a huge impact on how we deal with change was really brought home to me change was really brought home to me change was really brought home to me early on in my career as a family early on in my career as a family early on in my career as a family practice doctor. So, as a GP, I remember practice doctor. So, as a GP, I remember practice doctor. So, as a GP, I remember so well one morning this young couple so well one morning this young couple so well one morning this young couple came in um for their appointment came in um for their appointment came in um for their appointment and their baby boy had died over the and their baby boy had died over the and their baby boy had died over the weekend. weekend. weekend. >> Oh my god. >> Oh my god. >> Oh my god. >> You know, I think it was 2 or 3 months >> You know, I think it was 2 or 3 months >> You know, I think it was 2 or 3 months old. I I I can't remember the exact old. I I I can't remember the exact old. I I I can't remember the exact details now. But details now. But details now. But the thing I remember from that the thing I remember from that the thing I remember from that consultation consultation consultation is that they had very strict religious is that they had very strict religious is that they had very strict religious beliefs. beliefs. beliefs. And they said to me, And they said to me, And they said to me, they were clearly upset. They were they were clearly upset. They were they were clearly upset. They were tearful, but they said to me, tearful, but they said to me, tearful, but they said to me, "This was God's will." M "This was God's will." M "This was God's will." M >> now to me at the time it was it was >> now to me at the time it was it was >> now to me at the time it was it was quite confronting to hear that I guess quite confronting to hear that I guess quite confronting to hear that I guess you know I I I reflected on it a lot you know I I I reflected on it a lot you know I I I reflected on it a lot since then Maya and I I thought about it since then Maya and I I thought about it since then Maya and I I thought about it again whilst reading your book because I again whilst reading your book because I again whilst reading your book because I thought thought thought I think I think I think their belief their strong belief in their belief their strong belief in their belief their strong belief in something greater than their existence something greater than their existence something greater than their existence help them navigate arguably one of the most harrowing human arguably one of the most harrowing human experienc experiences experienc experiences experienc experiences >> because I I saw them a few times over >> because I I saw them a few times over >> because I I saw them a few times over the over the next few months and years the over the next few months and years the over the next few months and years and and and I I guess the question I and and and I I guess the question I and and and I I guess the question I have for you is what role do you think having a belief what role do you think having a belief in something greater whether that's in something greater whether that's in something greater whether that's religion or spirituality or you know religion or spirituality or you know religion or spirituality or you know something else what role do you think something else what role do you think something else what role do you think that plays in our ability to navigate that plays in our ability to navigate that plays in our ability to navigate change. change. change. I think I think I think irrespective of whether we are religious irrespective of whether we are religious irrespective of whether we are religious or not or spiritual or not, we are or not or spiritual or not, we are or not or spiritual or not, we are naturalb born storytellers. naturalb born storytellers. naturalb born storytellers. We want to create narratives out of our We want to create narratives out of our We want to create narratives out of our experiences because experiences because experiences because it can just be mentally devastating it can just be mentally devastating it can just be mentally devastating to really confront the idea that the to really confront the idea that the to really confront the idea that the universe can be so indiscriminately universe can be so indiscriminately universe can be so indiscriminately cruel and callous towards people who cruel and callous towards people who cruel and callous towards people who simply don't deserve it. simply don't deserve it. simply don't deserve it. >> You know, there's a psych psychological >> You know, there's a psych psychological >> You know, there's a psych psychological concept called belief in a just world. concept called belief in a just world. concept called belief in a just world. And I think we all gravitate towards And I think we all gravitate towards And I think we all gravitate towards that belief or most of us do because that belief or most of us do because that belief or most of us do because it is so uncomfortable to think that it is so uncomfortable to think that it is so uncomfortable to think that the universe is kind of indifferent the universe is kind of indifferent the universe is kind of indifferent towards whether we're good people or bad towards whether we're good people or bad towards whether we're good people or bad people, right? It's so comforting to people, right? It's so comforting to people, right? It's so comforting to think that good things will happen to think that good things will happen to think that good things will happen to good people and bad things will happen good people and bad things will happen good people and bad things will happen to bad people or that there is a larger to bad people or that there is a larger to bad people or that there is a larger plan. There is some way of explaining plan. There is some way of explaining plan. There is some way of explaining away injustice. And so I think each away injustice. And so I think each away injustice. And so I think each person has a different way of explaining person has a different way of explaining person has a different way of explaining away the injustice. For me personally, away the injustice. For me personally, away the injustice. For me personally, um I fall back on the science of the um I fall back on the science of the um I fall back on the science of the mind and human psychology to try to mind and human psychology to try to mind and human psychology to try to figure out well I don't believe things figure out well I don't believe things figure out well I don't believe things happen for a reason personally. Um but happen for a reason personally. Um but happen for a reason personally. Um but that doesn't mean that I don't want to that doesn't mean that I don't want to that doesn't mean that I don't want to extract as much meaning and value as extract as much meaning and value as extract as much meaning and value as there is to extract from the hardest there is to extract from the hardest there is to extract from the hardest moments of my life. And so I still moments of my life. And so I still moments of my life. And so I still engage in that narrative making, you engage in that narrative making, you engage in that narrative making, you know, I still engage in trying to know, I still engage in trying to know, I still engage in trying to construct meaning out of things and um I construct meaning out of things and um I construct meaning out of things and um I respect any way that a person is able to respect any way that a person is able to respect any way that a person is able to achieve that end goal, you know. Um achieve that end goal, you know. Um achieve that end goal, you know. Um >> yeah, >> yeah, >> yeah, >> but it just looks different for each for >> but it just looks different for each for >> but it just looks different for each for every one of us. every one of us. every one of us. >> Yeah. I I think what that >> Yeah. I I think what that >> Yeah. I I think what that situation taught me situation taught me situation taught me is that is that is that everyone's entitled to everyone's entitled to everyone's entitled to navigate the world in whichever way they navigate the world in whichever way they navigate the world in whichever way they see fit. You know, if that helps see fit. You know, if that helps see fit. You know, if that helps someone navigate adversity, who am I to someone navigate adversity, who am I to someone navigate adversity, who am I to say that's good or bad? In fact, I say that's good or bad? In fact, I say that's good or bad? In fact, I wasn't trying to do that. It was just wasn't trying to do that. It was just wasn't trying to do that. It was just very interesting for me to observe it very interesting for me to observe it very interesting for me to observe it and go, "Wow, that is amazing." Maybe and go, "Wow, that is amazing." Maybe and go, "Wow, that is amazing." Maybe absolutely, absolutely, absolutely, >> maybe one of the reasons that >> maybe one of the reasons that >> maybe one of the reasons that >> in Western society >> in Western society >> in Western society we struggle so much today at dealing we struggle so much today at dealing we struggle so much today at dealing with change is because we become more with change is because we become more with change is because we become more secular and less religious, secular and less religious, secular and less religious, >> right? And and I'm I'm just again I'm >> right? And and I'm I'm just again I'm >> right? And and I'm I'm just again I'm not trying to come down on either side, not trying to come down on either side, not trying to come down on either side, say one's better than the other. Not at say one's better than the other. Not at say one's better than the other. Not at all. It's just simply when you do have a all. It's just simply when you do have a all. It's just simply when you do have a strong belief system, it probably helps strong belief system, it probably helps strong belief system, it probably helps you navigate. you navigate. you navigate. >> Oh, absolutely. I mean my uncle and aunt >> Oh, absolutely. I mean my uncle and aunt >> Oh, absolutely. I mean my uncle and aunt for example in India are deeply for example in India are deeply for example in India are deeply religious and I can see um how religious and I can see um how religious and I can see um how differently they engage with trauma and differently they engage with trauma and differently they engage with trauma and and negative events. They really do and negative events. They really do and negative events. They really do believe that it is part of a bigger plan believe that it is part of a bigger plan believe that it is part of a bigger plan for them and it is God's will and they for them and it is God's will and they for them and it is God's will and they whereas I'm you know I'm engaging in all whereas I'm you know I'm engaging in all whereas I'm you know I'm engaging in all of this stress and anxiety around it. of this stress and anxiety around it. of this stress and anxiety around it. They I I feel like my uncle and aunt are They I I feel like my uncle and aunt are They I I feel like my uncle and aunt are able to reach acceptance so much more able to reach acceptance so much more able to reach acceptance so much more quickly. quickly. quickly. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Um radical acceptance that remains >> Um radical acceptance that remains >> Um radical acceptance that remains elusive to me um to this day. Um and so elusive to me um to this day. Um and so elusive to me um to this day. Um and so absolutely. I mean I witness it all the absolutely. I mean I witness it all the absolutely. I mean I witness it all the time just within my own family. time just within my own family. time just within my own family. >> It's interesting as you say that the >> It's interesting as you say that the >> It's interesting as you say that the book is full of these sciencebacked book is full of these sciencebacked book is full of these sciencebacked strategies and we we're going to get to strategies and we we're going to get to strategies and we we're going to get to some of them shortly. Right. So you you some of them shortly. Right. So you you some of them shortly. Right. So you you you've you've done a lot of the you've you've done a lot of the you've you've done a lot of the research. you show what the research has research. you show what the research has research. you show what the research has demonstrated and how we can apply it in demonstrated and how we can apply it in demonstrated and how we can apply it in our lives. But I guess what I think our lives. But I guess what I think our lives. But I guess what I think about is the moments when you wrote about is the moments when you wrote about is the moments when you wrote about your own father and there's two about your own father and there's two about your own father and there's two points in your life. points in your life. points in your life. >> I think before you went to college after >> I think before you went to college after >> I think before you went to college after you've had to give up the dream of being you've had to give up the dream of being you've had to give up the dream of being a professional concert violinist where a professional concert violinist where a professional concert violinist where he gives you some quite sage advice that he gives you some quite sage advice that he gives you some quite sage advice that was perhaps not based on science but was perhaps not based on science but was perhaps not based on science but based on his wisdom based on his wisdom based on his wisdom >> but that also massively helped you like >> but that also massively helped you like >> but that also massively helped you like that moment when he took you to the that moment when he took you to the that moment when he took you to the cemetery. cemetery. cemetery. >> Yeah. It's so funny because when I was >> Yeah. It's so funny because when I was >> Yeah. It's so funny because when I was reflecting just now um on my life as a reflecting just now um on my life as a reflecting just now um on my life as a cognitive scientist, right, undergrad, cognitive scientist, right, undergrad, cognitive scientist, right, undergrad, PhD, postto, PhD, postto, PhD, postto, I was trained in empirical methods, I was trained in empirical methods, I was trained in empirical methods, right? And so in some sense, the right? And so in some sense, the right? And so in some sense, the academic community in that sphere would academic community in that sphere would academic community in that sphere would say, "Oh, why are we talking about say, "Oh, why are we talking about say, "Oh, why are we talking about stories? Why are we talking about stories? Why are we talking about stories? Why are we talking about narratives? That's diluting the strength narratives? That's diluting the strength narratives? That's diluting the strength of the recommendation." of the recommendation." of the recommendation." And And And I have totally changed my tune on that I have totally changed my tune on that I have totally changed my tune on that front. So, when I first started my front. So, when I first started my front. So, when I first started my podcast, A Slight Change of Plans, back podcast, A Slight Change of Plans, back podcast, A Slight Change of Plans, back in 2021, in 2021, in 2021, I it was like being hit by a freight I it was like being hit by a freight I it was like being hit by a freight train in terms of the power of marrying train in terms of the power of marrying train in terms of the power of marrying science and storytelling to help us science and storytelling to help us science and storytelling to help us extract the most value, the most benefit extract the most value, the most benefit extract the most value, the most benefit um when it comes to navigating change. um when it comes to navigating change. um when it comes to navigating change. And so I'm such a firm believer that is And so I'm such a firm believer that is And so I'm such a firm believer that is the intersection of these two spheres the intersection of these two spheres the intersection of these two spheres that leads to maximum insight. And for that leads to maximum insight. And for that leads to maximum insight. And for that reason, when I was even thinking that reason, when I was even thinking that reason, when I was even thinking about writing this book, I wanted it to about writing this book, I wanted it to about writing this book, I wanted it to be narrative first. I really believe be narrative first. I really believe be narrative first. I really believe that it is in people's it is in reading that it is in people's it is in reading that it is in people's it is in reading people's stories that we feel truly people's stories that we feel truly people's stories that we feel truly transformed. And yes, the science is transformed. And yes, the science is transformed. And yes, the science is really nice and I wanted to give people really nice and I wanted to give people really nice and I wanted to give people some structure so that you know, as you some structure so that you know, as you some structure so that you know, as you know, at the end of the book, I give know, at the end of the book, I give know, at the end of the book, I give people a quote change survival kit. people a quote change survival kit. people a quote change survival kit. Yeah. I want them to have a guide when Yeah. I want them to have a guide when Yeah. I want them to have a guide when they're navigating change in their own they're navigating change in their own they're navigating change in their own life, but importantly, life, but importantly, life, but importantly, I really wanted them to internalize I really wanted them to internalize I really wanted them to internalize these lessons. And I felt that myself. these lessons. And I felt that myself. these lessons. And I felt that myself. you know, I'm I'm aware of the concepts, you know, I'm I'm aware of the concepts, you know, I'm I'm aware of the concepts, the scientific concepts I write about in the scientific concepts I write about in the scientific concepts I write about in the book, but it was only in going on the book, but it was only in going on the book, but it was only in going on the journey with Olivia, with Dwayne, the journey with Olivia, with Dwayne, the journey with Olivia, with Dwayne, with Ingred, with Matt that I started to with Ingred, with Matt that I started to with Ingred, with Matt that I started to truly practice some of the science in my truly practice some of the science in my truly practice some of the science in my own life. So, I think the narrative own life. So, I think the narrative own life. So, I think the narrative component is so so important. component is so so important. component is so so important. I wanted to share a little bit more I wanted to share a little bit more I wanted to share a little bit more about the violin experience because I about the violin experience because I about the violin experience because I feel like I did learn some really feel like I did learn some really feel like I did learn some really valuable insights from that experience. valuable insights from that experience. valuable insights from that experience. Some of it only recently and then like Some of it only recently and then like Some of it only recently and then like you said from my dad. So from the time I you said from my dad. So from the time I you said from my dad. So from the time I was six, my life really centered around was six, my life really centered around was six, my life really centered around the violin. Um my mom went up to our the violin. Um my mom went up to our the violin. Um my mom went up to our attic and brought down my grandmother's attic and brought down my grandmother's attic and brought down my grandmother's violin that she had played as a young violin that she had played as a young violin that she had played as a young girl living in India and in Burma. And I girl living in India and in Burma. And I girl living in India and in Burma. And I was so close to my grandmother. Um when was so close to my grandmother. Um when was so close to my grandmother. Um when we would go to India uh over the we would go to India uh over the we would go to India uh over the summers, she and I were just summers, she and I were just summers, she and I were just inseparable. You know, I'd sleep next to inseparable. You know, I'd sleep next to inseparable. You know, I'd sleep next to her on the lenolium floor. We we would her on the lenolium floor. We we would her on the lenolium floor. We we would fold up sorry cloth that would serve as fold up sorry cloth that would serve as fold up sorry cloth that would serve as our pillows. I would sit next to her in our pillows. I would sit next to her in our pillows. I would sit next to her in the prayer room as she prayed for hours the prayer room as she prayed for hours the prayer room as she prayed for hours and hours and I would try to simulate and hours and I would try to simulate and hours and I would try to simulate her rocking motions and her prayer her rocking motions and her prayer her rocking motions and her prayer position. I would stand next to her and position. I would stand next to her and position. I would stand next to her and tug at her sorry when she was cooking tug at her sorry when she was cooking tug at her sorry when she was cooking delicious Indian food. Um, and so I delicious Indian food. Um, and so I delicious Indian food. Um, and so I think that when my mom brought down this think that when my mom brought down this think that when my mom brought down this violin and my three older siblings violin and my three older siblings violin and my three older siblings rejected it, I because I felt so close rejected it, I because I felt so close rejected it, I because I felt so close to my potty, to my maternal grandmother to my potty, to my maternal grandmother to my potty, to my maternal grandmother said, "Yes, I want to play this said, "Yes, I want to play this said, "Yes, I want to play this instrument." And the connection was instrument." And the connection was instrument." And the connection was instant, Rungan. So even though I was so instant, Rungan. So even though I was so instant, Rungan. So even though I was so little, my parents never had to really little, my parents never had to really little, my parents never had to really tell me to practice, which was kind of tell me to practice, which was kind of tell me to practice, which was kind of extraordinary. I mean, I mean, they had extraordinary. I mean, I mean, they had extraordinary. I mean, I mean, they had to tell me to do all sorts of other to tell me to do all sorts of other to tell me to do all sorts of other things, but my love of music was was things, but my love of music was was things, but my love of music was was really visceral. And when I was nine, I really visceral. And when I was nine, I really visceral. And when I was nine, I auditioned for the Giuliard School of auditioned for the Giuliard School of auditioned for the Giuliard School of Music in New York. And I started going Music in New York. And I started going Music in New York. And I started going there every weekend from Connecticut to there every weekend from Connecticut to there every weekend from Connecticut to New York. So, I would get up at 4:30 in New York. So, I would get up at 4:30 in New York. So, I would get up at 4:30 in the morning, take a train to New York. I the morning, take a train to New York. I the morning, take a train to New York. I would have 10 hours of classes, come would have 10 hours of classes, come would have 10 hours of classes, come home at night. And I started to develop home at night. And I started to develop home at night. And I started to develop big dreams of becoming a professional. big dreams of becoming a professional. big dreams of becoming a professional. And then when I was a teenager, the And then when I was a teenager, the And then when I was a teenager, the renowned violinist Pearlman invited me renowned violinist Pearlman invited me renowned violinist Pearlman invited me to be his private violin student. And to be his private violin student. And to be his private violin student. And that was really the vote of confidence I that was really the vote of confidence I that was really the vote of confidence I felt I needed to believe that I could felt I needed to believe that I could felt I needed to believe that I could actually make it in this fiercely actually make it in this fiercely actually make it in this fiercely competitive world. You know, as you can competitive world. You know, as you can competitive world. You know, as you can imagine, I had a lot of imposttor imagine, I had a lot of imposttor imagine, I had a lot of imposttor syndrome, operating in this very elite syndrome, operating in this very elite syndrome, operating in this very elite circle, and I I never really knew if I circle, and I I never really knew if I circle, and I I never really knew if I had what it what it took. Um, and so had what it what it took. Um, and so had what it what it took. Um, and so everything was going according to plan everything was going according to plan everything was going according to plan until I had my slight change of plans. until I had my slight change of plans. until I had my slight change of plans. Um, I overstretched my pinky finger Um, I overstretched my pinky finger Um, I overstretched my pinky finger playing a a note in a very challenging playing a a note in a very challenging playing a a note in a very challenging piece and I damaged tendons in my hand. piece and I damaged tendons in my hand. piece and I damaged tendons in my hand. And despite And despite And despite months and then years of resistance and months and then years of resistance and months and then years of resistance and denial and stubbornness and experimental denial and stubbornness and experimental denial and stubbornness and experimental treatments and surgeries and physical treatments and surgeries and physical treatments and surgeries and physical therapy and cortisone injections and therapy and cortisone injections and therapy and cortisone injections and anti-inflammatories, anti-inflammatories, anti-inflammatories, I was unable to heal. And so doctors I was unable to heal. And so doctors I was unable to heal. And so doctors finally told me, "Look, your dream is finally told me, "Look, your dream is finally told me, "Look, your dream is over. You really need to stop playing." over. You really need to stop playing." over. You really need to stop playing." And there was something so curious about And there was something so curious about And there was something so curious about my grief, which was that my grief, which was that my grief, which was that of course I was grieving the loss of the of course I was grieving the loss of the of course I was grieving the loss of the instrument, but I really felt like I was instrument, but I really felt like I was instrument, but I really felt like I was grieving the loss of myself in this more grieving the loss of myself in this more grieving the loss of myself in this more foundational way. It felt like in losing foundational way. It felt like in losing foundational way. It felt like in losing the violin, I had lost Maya. the violin, I had lost Maya. the violin, I had lost Maya. >> And I think sometimes in our lives, we >> And I think sometimes in our lives, we >> And I think sometimes in our lives, we don't realize how much something has don't realize how much something has don't realize how much something has come to define us until we lose it. M come to define us until we lose it. M come to define us until we lose it. M >> but so much of who I was was entangled >> but so much of who I was was entangled >> but so much of who I was was entangled with the violin. My sense of meaning and with the violin. My sense of meaning and with the violin. My sense of meaning and purpose, my sense of self-confidence and purpose, my sense of self-confidence and purpose, my sense of self-confidence and value, my sense of belonging. You know, value, my sense of belonging. You know, value, my sense of belonging. You know, I was one of a few brown kids in a I was one of a few brown kids in a I was one of a few brown kids in a predominantly Caucasian community. And predominantly Caucasian community. And predominantly Caucasian community. And um I was bullied by the girls in my um I was bullied by the girls in my um I was bullied by the girls in my neighborhood, but when I was at music neighborhood, but when I was at music neighborhood, but when I was at music school, which was more international, I school, which was more international, I school, which was more international, I felt warmly embraced. I felt like my felt warmly embraced. I felt like my felt warmly embraced. I felt like my peers peers peers >> loved me and and appreciated me and >> loved me and and appreciated me and >> loved me and and appreciated me and valued me. And so valued me. And so valued me. And so it was a more devastating loss than I it was a more devastating loss than I it was a more devastating loss than I think I could have imagined think I could have imagined think I could have imagined um if you had told me earlier that you um if you had told me earlier that you um if you had told me earlier that you once you might one day lose the violin. once you might one day lose the violin. once you might one day lose the violin. And it's taken me now decades to learn And it's taken me now decades to learn And it's taken me now decades to learn the lesson I'm about to share. But I the lesson I'm about to share. But I the lesson I'm about to share. But I really hope it's it's helpful to to really hope it's it's helpful to to really hope it's it's helpful to to listeners of your podcast. listeners of your podcast. listeners of your podcast. It can be quite precarious for us to It can be quite precarious for us to It can be quite precarious for us to anchor our selfidentity to what we do. anchor our selfidentity to what we do. anchor our selfidentity to what we do. And that's because life can take away And that's because life can take away And that's because life can take away that what in an instant as I experienced that what in an instant as I experienced that what in an instant as I experienced myself, right? I went from being a myself, right? I went from being a myself, right? I went from being a violinist to not being a violinist just violinist to not being a violinist just violinist to not being a violinist just like that. And instead I have learned to like that. And instead I have learned to like that. And instead I have learned to anchor my self-identity anchor my self-identity anchor my self-identity to to why I do something. So what do I to to why I do something. So what do I to to why I do something. So what do I mean by this? I asked myself, what is it mean by this? I asked myself, what is it mean by this? I asked myself, what is it that I loved about playing the violin? that I loved about playing the violin? that I loved about playing the violin? And I realized that at its core was a And I realized that at its core was a And I realized that at its core was a deep need deep need deep need for human connection. for human connection. for human connection. That is what made me tick. I loved That is what made me tick. I loved That is what made me tick. I loved feeling close to my fellow musicians, to feeling close to my fellow musicians, to feeling close to my fellow musicians, to members of my audience, to everyone that members of my audience, to everyone that members of my audience, to everyone that was in my musical orbit. And music was was in my musical orbit. And music was was in my musical orbit. And music was this beautiful vehicle through which I this beautiful vehicle through which I this beautiful vehicle through which I could achieve that deep emotional could achieve that deep emotional could achieve that deep emotional connection with other people. And just connection with other people. And just connection with other people. And just because I lost the violin did not mean because I lost the violin did not mean because I lost the violin did not mean that I lost what led me to love it in that I lost what led me to love it in that I lost what led me to love it in the first place. That part of Maya was the first place. That part of Maya was the first place. That part of Maya was actually still very much intact and it actually still very much intact and it actually still very much intact and it could serve as a compass of sorts to could serve as a compass of sorts to could serve as a compass of sorts to help guide me towards my next steps. I help guide me towards my next steps. I help guide me towards my next steps. I mean at the time I wasn't aware. I mean at the time I wasn't aware. I mean at the time I wasn't aware. I wasn't thinking about you know why wasn't thinking about you know why wasn't thinking about you know why versus what and how that might versus what and how that might versus what and how that might constitute my selfidentity. But it turns constitute my selfidentity. But it turns constitute my selfidentity. But it turns out that I naturally gravitated towards out that I naturally gravitated towards out that I naturally gravitated towards pursuits that fed this deep part of me. pursuits that fed this deep part of me. pursuits that fed this deep part of me. Mhm. Mhm. Mhm. >> I in in starting my podcast, a slight >> I in in starting my podcast, a slight >> I in in starting my podcast, a slight change of plans. It was all about change of plans. It was all about change of plans. It was all about forging deep emotional connections with forging deep emotional connections with forging deep emotional connections with humans from my closet in my apartment humans from my closet in my apartment humans from my closet in my apartment building, you know, but talking with building, you know, but talking with building, you know, but talking with people about their incredible stories of people about their incredible stories of people about their incredible stories of change all over the world and then change all over the world and then change all over the world and then writing the other side of change in writing the other side of change in writing the other side of change in which I interviewed people over the which I interviewed people over the which I interviewed people over the course of years, you know, dozens and course of years, you know, dozens and course of years, you know, dozens and dozens of hours probing their life dozens of hours probing their life dozens of hours probing their life stories and narratives that was also stories and narratives that was also stories and narratives that was also feeding this deep desire for emotional feeding this deep desire for emotional feeding this deep desire for emotional connection. And so connection. And so connection. And so I now see myself as the kind of person I now see myself as the kind of person I now see myself as the kind of person who thrives when in conversation with who thrives when in conversation with who thrives when in conversation with others who loves the feeling of being others who loves the feeling of being others who loves the feeling of being deeply connected to other people. And deeply connected to other people. And deeply connected to other people. And life can't actually take that passion life can't actually take that passion life can't actually take that passion away from me. And so when I think about away from me. And so when I think about away from me. And so when I think about my selfidentity now, it feels more my selfidentity now, it feels more my selfidentity now, it feels more resilient to change. it feels more resilient to change. it feels more resilient to change. it feels more durable and longlasting and and that durable and longlasting and and that durable and longlasting and and that even if life takes away my ability to be even if life takes away my ability to be even if life takes away my ability to be a writer, to be a podcaster, there will a writer, to be a podcaster, there will a writer, to be a podcaster, there will still be other outlets through which I still be other outlets through which I still be other outlets through which I can express this part of myself. And so can express this part of myself. And so can express this part of myself. And so I would encourage people who are I would encourage people who are I would encourage people who are listening to ask themselves, listening to ask themselves, listening to ask themselves, what is their why? What makes them love what is their why? What makes them love what is their why? What makes them love doing the things they love? Maybe it's a doing the things they love? Maybe it's a doing the things they love? Maybe it's a love of service or a love of learning or love of service or a love of learning or love of service or a love of learning or seeing themselves improve at a craft or seeing themselves improve at a craft or seeing themselves improve at a craft or maybe it's having a creative outlet. If maybe it's having a creative outlet. If maybe it's having a creative outlet. If you can define yourself you can define yourself you can define yourself in that way, then you have this durable in that way, then you have this durable in that way, then you have this durable robust selfidentity that will persist robust selfidentity that will persist robust selfidentity that will persist even if you're navigating a big change. even if you're navigating a big change. even if you're navigating a big change. >> Yeah, it's >> Yeah, it's >> Yeah, it's a great way of looking at things. you a great way of looking at things. you a great way of looking at things. you know what you what you do. know what you what you do. know what you what you do. It's just a role that you play. It's not It's just a role that you play. It's not It's just a role that you play. It's not who you are. who you are. who you are. >> Right. >> Right. >> Right. >> And >> And >> And I've heard you once say that you don't I've heard you once say that you don't I've heard you once say that you don't like like like it when adults ask children the it when adults ask children the it when adults ask children the question, "What do you want to do when question, "What do you want to do when question, "What do you want to do when you grow up?" Did I get that right? you grow up?" Did I get that right? you grow up?" Did I get that right? You're not a fan of that question? You're not a fan of that question? You're not a fan of that question? >> No. just think that we are >> No. just think that we are >> No. just think that we are re-emphasizing that the what is what is re-emphasizing that the what is what is re-emphasizing that the what is what is is what's going to last and be important is what's going to last and be important is what's going to last and be important when I I want to also ask kids when I I want to also ask kids when I I want to also ask kids >> who do you want to be when you grow up >> who do you want to be when you grow up >> who do you want to be when you grow up what kind of person what are your values what kind of person what are your values what kind of person what are your values what's going to matter to you do you what's going to matter to you do you what's going to matter to you do you want to give back to others do you want want to give back to others do you want want to give back to others do you want a life in which you're constantly a life in which you're constantly a life in which you're constantly intellectually stimulated do you want to intellectually stimulated do you want to intellectually stimulated do you want to be an adventurer I want people to think be an adventurer I want people to think be an adventurer I want people to think about personality and character traits about personality and character traits about personality and character traits and how they might cultivate those and how they might cultivate those and how they might cultivate those >> and if you don't mind my asking I'm >> and if you don't mind my asking I'm >> and if you don't mind my asking I'm curious to know when it comes to this curious to know when it comes to this curious to know when it comes to this brilliant podcast that you have, what is brilliant podcast that you have, what is brilliant podcast that you have, what is your why? What do you think motivates your why? What do you think motivates your why? What do you think motivates you such that if I if I were to tell you such that if I if I were to tell you such that if I if I were to tell you, I'm so sorry, Runan, but the you, I'm so sorry, Runan, but the you, I'm so sorry, Runan, but the podcast is going to go away tomorrow, podcast is going to go away tomorrow, podcast is going to go away tomorrow, what that why would be and and other what that why would be and and other what that why would be and and other outlets through which you might feed outlets through which you might feed outlets through which you might feed that passion? that passion? that passion? >> That's a great question. It's not one >> That's a great question. It's not one >> That's a great question. It's not one I've thought about before. Um, I've thought about before. Um, I've thought about before. Um, I would say I would say I would say what this podcast does for me what this podcast does for me what this podcast does for me is feed is feed is feed what I consider to be a core value of what I consider to be a core value of what I consider to be a core value of mine, which is curiosity. mine, which is curiosity. mine, which is curiosity. >> I love that. >> I love that. >> I love that. >> So, I >> So, I >> So, I I'm a very curious person. I think I've I'm a very curious person. I think I've I'm a very curious person. I think I've always been. Frankly, I think everyone always been. Frankly, I think everyone always been. Frankly, I think everyone actually is. Uh, but I think it actually is. Uh, but I think it actually is. Uh, but I think it sometimes gets schooled out of us. I sometimes gets schooled out of us. I sometimes gets schooled out of us. I certainly believe myself to be a very certainly believe myself to be a very certainly believe myself to be a very curious person and I feel that this curious person and I feel that this curious person and I feel that this podcast allows me to explore that podcast allows me to explore that podcast allows me to explore that curiosity curiosity curiosity in the most wonderful way. And I have in the most wonderful way. And I have in the most wonderful way. And I have thought long and hard over the last thought long and hard over the last thought long and hard over the last eight years as to how and why I pick eight years as to how and why I pick eight years as to how and why I pick guests. M guests. M guests. M >> as podcasting's become more and more >> as podcasting's become more and more >> as podcasting's become more and more popular and people are starting podcasts popular and people are starting podcasts popular and people are starting podcasts as good business ventures and they have as good business ventures and they have as good business ventures and they have teams who you know monitor algorithms teams who you know monitor algorithms teams who you know monitor algorithms and choose guests who are going to and choose guests who are going to and choose guests who are going to perform. I'm aware of all of that and I perform. I'm aware of all of that and I perform. I'm aware of all of that and I I rebel against it and go that's great I rebel against it and go that's great I rebel against it and go that's great for other podcasters who want to play for other podcasters who want to play for other podcasters who want to play that game. It's not the game I want to that game. It's not the game I want to that game. It's not the game I want to play. I choose every single guest on play. I choose every single guest on play. I choose every single guest on this show. I research the guest myself. this show. I research the guest myself. this show. I research the guest myself. It is my way of exploring my own It is my way of exploring my own It is my way of exploring my own curiosity. curiosity. curiosity. Not only do I think that contributes to Not only do I think that contributes to Not only do I think that contributes to the quality of the conversation, the quality of the conversation, the quality of the conversation, I think it also contributes to longevity I think it also contributes to longevity I think it also contributes to longevity and and and why I still love doing this and and and why I still love doing this and and and why I still love doing this eight years on because I'm not doing it eight years on because I'm not doing it eight years on because I'm not doing it >> for an external metric. I'm doing it for >> for an external metric. I'm doing it for >> for an external metric. I'm doing it for an internal metric which is my own an internal metric which is my own an internal metric which is my own curiosity. So the next part of your curiosity. So the next part of your curiosity. So the next part of your question is um question is um question is um you know if if it disappeared you know if if it disappeared you know if if it disappeared overnight, overnight, overnight, how would I still feed that value? And how would I still feed that value? And how would I still feed that value? And it's it's a great question. I I would it's it's a great question. I I would it's it's a great question. I I would miss it. Sure. Right. miss it. Sure. Right. miss it. Sure. Right. >> Um or if AI takes over and nobody ever >> Um or if AI takes over and nobody ever >> Um or if AI takes over and nobody ever needs now real podcasts anymore and I needs now real podcasts anymore and I needs now real podcasts anymore and I know you know you've got wonderful know you know you've got wonderful know you know you've got wonderful podcasts yourself. podcasts yourself. podcasts yourself. >> Um there's many ways I can do it. You >> Um there's many ways I can do it. You >> Um there's many ways I can do it. You know, I'm curious with my children when know, I'm curious with my children when know, I'm curious with my children when they come back from school. I'm I'm, you they come back from school. I'm I'm, you they come back from school. I'm I'm, you know, I love reading books. You know, I know, I love reading books. You know, I know, I love reading books. You know, I read books to explore curiosity. In read books to explore curiosity. In read books to explore curiosity. In fact, I would argue that one of the best fact, I would argue that one of the best fact, I would argue that one of the best things about this show for me is that it things about this show for me is that it things about this show for me is that it forces me to read all these great books. forces me to read all these great books. forces me to read all these great books. Because if I wasn't interviewing you Because if I wasn't interviewing you Because if I wasn't interviewing you today, Maya, I might have bought it and today, Maya, I might have bought it and today, Maya, I might have bought it and it might have sat alongside a few other it might have sat alongside a few other it might have sat alongside a few other books that I've meant to read on the books that I've meant to read on the books that I've meant to read on the shelf, but I'm like, "No, Ma's given me shelf, but I'm like, "No, Ma's given me shelf, but I'm like, "No, Ma's given me some time to talk. You need to get some time to talk. You need to get some time to talk. You need to get through the book." So, I feel very lucky through the book." So, I feel very lucky through the book." So, I feel very lucky that this kind of structure that this kind of structure that this kind of structure almost almost almost encourages me to sort of feed that encourages me to sort of feed that encourages me to sort of feed that curiosity even more. So, curiosity even more. So, curiosity even more. So, >> maybe a slightly waffled answer there, >> maybe a slightly waffled answer there, >> maybe a slightly waffled answer there, but that's my my initial answer to your but that's my my initial answer to your but that's my my initial answer to your question. Absolutely. And I'm so question. Absolutely. And I'm so question. Absolutely. And I'm so delighted to see someone like you who I delighted to see someone like you who I delighted to see someone like you who I think is in this quote for the right think is in this quote for the right think is in this quote for the right reasons, not to quote the Bachelor, um reasons, not to quote the Bachelor, um reasons, not to quote the Bachelor, um but you really are you're doing this for but you really are you're doing this for but you really are you're doing this for the right reasons and to see that the right reasons and to see that the right reasons and to see that rewarded and for it to pay off and you rewarded and for it to pay off and you rewarded and for it to pay off and you have this extremely loyal listener base have this extremely loyal listener base have this extremely loyal listener base like it it makes me feel so hopeful like it it makes me feel so hopeful like it it makes me feel so hopeful about the future of podcasting. about the future of podcasting. about the future of podcasting. >> Yeah. Well, thank you for the kind words >> Yeah. Well, thank you for the kind words >> Yeah. Well, thank you for the kind words and I I think for me it really ties in and I I think for me it really ties in and I I think for me it really ties in with with with the message you're you're you're trying the message you're you're you're trying the message you're you're you're trying to share with to share with to share with your story about, you know, what was it your story about, you know, what was it your story about, you know, what was it that you got out of playing the violin that you got out of playing the violin that you got out of playing the violin beyond just the violin. Okay. It was beyond just the violin. Okay. It was beyond just the violin. Okay. It was community connection. It was these other community connection. It was these other community connection. It was these other things that you can things that you can things that you can still nourish still nourish still nourish without the violin. without the violin. without the violin. >> Yes. Yes. >> Yes. Yes. >> Yes. Yes. >> And I guess that's a nice lesson for all >> And I guess that's a nice lesson for all >> And I guess that's a nice lesson for all of us because things do change in life. of us because things do change in life. of us because things do change in life. You know, You know, You know, >> yes, >> yes, >> yes, >> our kids will leave home at some point. >> our kids will leave home at some point. >> our kids will leave home at some point. You know, we will not be in the same job You know, we will not be in the same job You know, we will not be in the same job at some point, whether that's through at some point, whether that's through at some point, whether that's through retirement or a high or whatever it retirement or a high or whatever it retirement or a high or whatever it might be. might be. might be. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> And it's really useful for us to >> And it's really useful for us to >> And it's really useful for us to examine, well, what was it that we liked examine, well, what was it that we liked examine, well, what was it that we liked about it and how can I get that about it and how can I get that about it and how can I get that somewhere else? somewhere else? somewhere else? Another helpful thought experiment can Another helpful thought experiment can Another helpful thought experiment can be when you're in a moment of disruption be when you're in a moment of disruption be when you're in a moment of disruption or inflection, who else can this person or inflection, who else can this person or inflection, who else can this person be? So times sometimes we forget in the be? So times sometimes we forget in the be? So times sometimes we forget in the face of a hard pivot that we haven't face of a hard pivot that we haven't face of a hard pivot that we haven't actually lost everything. All of the actually lost everything. All of the actually lost everything. All of the skills we built, all the knowledge we've skills we built, all the knowledge we've skills we built, all the knowledge we've acred, all the wisdom we've gained, all acred, all the wisdom we've gained, all acred, all the wisdom we've gained, all the perspectives we've built maybe by the perspectives we've built maybe by the perspectives we've built maybe by traveling to different countries or traveling to different countries or traveling to different countries or having new experiences, those can all be having new experiences, those can all be having new experiences, those can all be purposed to serve you in your next purposed to serve you in your next purposed to serve you in your next steps, in your next pursuits. And steps, in your next pursuits. And steps, in your next pursuits. And when I think about the violin, for when I think about the violin, for when I think about the violin, for example, it is true that the technical example, it is true that the technical example, it is true that the technical skills I built as a violinist are not skills I built as a violinist are not skills I built as a violinist are not useful to me, right? Um, however, useful to me, right? Um, however, useful to me, right? Um, however, the grit that I built, the resilience in the grit that I built, the resilience in the grit that I built, the resilience in the face of failure, overcoming some of the face of failure, overcoming some of the face of failure, overcoming some of my stage fright and getting comfortable my stage fright and getting comfortable my stage fright and getting comfortable performing in front of audiences, having or cultivating my creative having or cultivating my creative spirit. These are all things that have spirit. These are all things that have spirit. These are all things that have been so helpful to me in my role as a been so helpful to me in my role as a been so helpful to me in my role as a cognitive scientist and being a cognitive scientist and being a cognitive scientist and being a podcaster and writing this book. And so podcaster and writing this book. And so podcaster and writing this book. And so I would urge people to reflect on the entirety of who they've become as a the entirety of who they've become as a result of their life experiences and to result of their life experiences and to result of their life experiences and to imagine that they're reading that imagine that they're reading that imagine that they're reading that person's life CV on a piece of paper. person's life CV on a piece of paper. person's life CV on a piece of paper. Not simply their academic accolades or Not simply their academic accolades or Not simply their academic accolades or job experiences, but the entirety of who job experiences, but the entirety of who job experiences, but the entirety of who they are. And just to have this distance they are. And just to have this distance they are. And just to have this distance thought experiment like thought experiment like thought experiment like >> if I was reading about this person for >> if I was reading about this person for >> if I was reading about this person for the first time, what might they be the first time, what might they be the first time, what might they be capable of? Yeah, capable of? Yeah, capable of? Yeah, >> surely there are so many opportunities >> surely there are so many opportunities >> surely there are so many opportunities for this incredible person that I'm for this incredible person that I'm for this incredible person that I'm reading about and I just wanted to share reading about and I just wanted to share reading about and I just wanted to share one other anecdote that I think relates one other anecdote that I think relates one other anecdote that I think relates to to this conversation. So I'd heard to to this conversation. So I'd heard to to this conversation. So I'd heard from a guy named Scott and Scott went to from a guy named Scott and Scott went to from a guy named Scott and Scott went to Harvard for law school. Um he is a human Harvard for law school. Um he is a human Harvard for law school. Um he is a human rights lawyer. I guess you guys would rights lawyer. I guess you guys would rights lawyer. I guess you guys would say barristister. Is that right? say barristister. Is that right? say barristister. Is that right? >> Yeah. But it's okay. >> Yeah. But it's okay. >> Yeah. But it's okay. >> Um what happened is that he received a >> Um what happened is that he received a >> Um what happened is that he received a devastating devastating devastating longcoid diagnosis. He suffers from longcoid diagnosis. He suffers from longcoid diagnosis. He suffers from vertigo, nausea, severe brain fog. Um he vertigo, nausea, severe brain fog. Um he vertigo, nausea, severe brain fog. Um he has had to quit his job as a lawyer. And has had to quit his job as a lawyer. And has had to quit his job as a lawyer. And as you can imagine, he experienced as you can imagine, he experienced as you can imagine, he experienced profound grief um for quite some time. profound grief um for quite some time. profound grief um for quite some time. But then he asked himself, well, why did But then he asked himself, well, why did But then he asked himself, well, why did I love being a human rights lawyer? And I love being a human rights lawyer? And I love being a human rights lawyer? And for him, his passion came from a deep for him, his passion came from a deep for him, his passion came from a deep satisfaction in representing under satisfaction in representing under satisfaction in representing under reppresented communities. communities reppresented communities. communities reppresented communities. communities that needed a voice. That's why he that needed a voice. That's why he that needed a voice. That's why he wanted to be a human rights lawyer in wanted to be a human rights lawyer in wanted to be a human rights lawyer in the first place. And then Scott realized the first place. And then Scott realized the first place. And then Scott realized that while he couldn't do that in the that while he couldn't do that in the that while he couldn't do that in the context of being a lawyer, he could do context of being a lawyer, he could do context of being a lawyer, he could do that as a longco advocate. that as a longco advocate. that as a longco advocate. >> And so now, even though he faces >> And so now, even though he faces >> And so now, even though he faces profound physical cognitive limitations, profound physical cognitive limitations, profound physical cognitive limitations, he is an outspoken advocate for those in he is an outspoken advocate for those in he is an outspoken advocate for those in his community. his community. his community. >> He's helped draft legislation. He's part >> He's helped draft legislation. He's part >> He's helped draft legislation. He's part of clinical trials. He's speaking to of clinical trials. He's speaking to of clinical trials. He's speaking to these voices that need to be heard about these voices that need to be heard about these voices that need to be heard about the devastating aftermath of a longco the devastating aftermath of a longco the devastating aftermath of a longco diagnosis. And so, um, yeah, I'm just so diagnosis. And so, um, yeah, I'm just so diagnosis. And so, um, yeah, I'm just so grateful to Scott for sharing that with grateful to Scott for sharing that with grateful to Scott for sharing that with me. me. me. >> Yeah, it's a lovely story and very >> Yeah, it's a lovely story and very >> Yeah, it's a lovely story and very inspiring for us to think about inspiring for us to think about inspiring for us to think about in our own lives if we've come across in our own lives if we've come across in our own lives if we've come across something that has unfortunately changed something that has unfortunately changed something that has unfortunately changed what we thought we were going to do for what we thought we were going to do for what we thought we were going to do for whatever reason. like of course you and whatever reason. like of course you and whatever reason. like of course you and the violin. Can I just ask you on that? the violin. Can I just ask you on that? the violin. Can I just ask you on that? When was the last time you picked up a When was the last time you picked up a When was the last time you picked up a violin? violin? violin? >> Oh yeah. Well, so my story is a little >> Oh yeah. Well, so my story is a little >> Oh yeah. Well, so my story is a little bit more complicated and it actually bit more complicated and it actually bit more complicated and it actually intersects with the UK. So I'll share it intersects with the UK. So I'll share it intersects with the UK. So I'll share it here. Um what I what I didn't write here. Um what I what I didn't write here. Um what I what I didn't write about in the book is that I was actually about in the book is that I was actually about in the book is that I was actually diagnosed with juvenile rheumatoid diagnosed with juvenile rheumatoid diagnosed with juvenile rheumatoid arthritis when I was 17. So my hand arthritis when I was 17. So my hand arthritis when I was 17. So my hand wasn't healing. and I was getting a lot wasn't healing. and I was getting a lot wasn't healing. and I was getting a lot of inflammation and doctors thought that of inflammation and doctors thought that of inflammation and doctors thought that maybe it was actually a systemic maybe it was actually a systemic maybe it was actually a systemic degenerative disease and so I started degenerative disease and so I started degenerative disease and so I started taking immunosuppressants and taking immunosuppressants and taking immunosuppressants and anti-inflammatories to treat rheumatoid anti-inflammatories to treat rheumatoid anti-inflammatories to treat rheumatoid um when I was 17 and it was actually um when I was 17 and it was actually um when I was 17 and it was actually only in the UK when I saw a specialist only in the UK when I saw a specialist only in the UK when I saw a specialist at Oxford that it was made clear that it at Oxford that it was made clear that it at Oxford that it was made clear that it was actually a misdiagnosis. So I was actually a misdiagnosis. So I was actually a misdiagnosis. So I actually have this UK doctor to thank. I actually have this UK doctor to thank. I actually have this UK doctor to thank. I wrote to him a couple years ago just wrote to him a couple years ago just wrote to him a couple years ago just saying, "Thank you for changing my life saying, "Thank you for changing my life saying, "Thank you for changing my life and revealing that that it was a and revealing that that it was a and revealing that that it was a misdiagnosis." So, when I found out that misdiagnosis." So, when I found out that misdiagnosis." So, when I found out that I did not have rheumatoid arthritis, I I did not have rheumatoid arthritis, I I did not have rheumatoid arthritis, I actually had a little bit of a comeback actually had a little bit of a comeback actually had a little bit of a comeback year. So, I was invited to perform with year. So, I was invited to perform with year. So, I was invited to perform with Joshua Bell in South Africa. I played on Joshua Bell in South Africa. I played on Joshua Bell in South Africa. I played on NPR, which in um which in the US I'd NPR, which in um which in the US I'd NPR, which in um which in the US I'd played on a couple times in my played on a couple times in my played on a couple times in my childhood. They were having a 10th childhood. They were having a 10th childhood. They were having a 10th anniversary celebration. anniversary celebration. anniversary celebration. >> Wow. And it was a wonderful reunion with >> Wow. And it was a wonderful reunion with >> Wow. And it was a wonderful reunion with the violin. I actually couldn't play the violin. I actually couldn't play the violin. I actually couldn't play long term because I I had developed so long term because I I had developed so long term because I I had developed so much scar tissue in my hand from the much scar tissue in my hand from the much scar tissue in my hand from the initial injury and also from um surgery initial injury and also from um surgery initial injury and also from um surgery that I had done. Um, so it wasn't it that I had done. Um, so it wasn't it that I had done. Um, so it wasn't it wasn't a long-term thing, but to be able wasn't a long-term thing, but to be able wasn't a long-term thing, but to be able to to play the violin again after all to to play the violin again after all to to play the violin again after all that time away and to have become a that time away and to have become a that time away and to have become a different person in those intervening different person in those intervening different person in those intervening seven or so years, seven or so years, seven or so years, I felt that my emotional affection for I felt that my emotional affection for I felt that my emotional affection for the instrument had only grown and that the instrument had only grown and that the instrument had only grown and that despite having barely practiced for despite having barely practiced for despite having barely practiced for these performances, these performances, these performances, I delivered what I felt was my most I delivered what I felt was my most I delivered what I felt was my most beautiful performance. beautiful performance. beautiful performance. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. I said earlier on that we were going to I said earlier on that we were going to I said earlier on that we were going to talk about rumination and I must come talk about rumination and I must come talk about rumination and I must come back to it because I know this is back to it because I know this is back to it because I know this is something that so many people struggle something that so many people struggle something that so many people struggle with. You have a whole chapter on it with. You have a whole chapter on it with. You have a whole chapter on it called mental spirals. called mental spirals. called mental spirals. What is rumination? You know, why do we What is rumination? You know, why do we What is rumination? You know, why do we do it? And what are some of your best do it? And what are some of your best do it? And what are some of your best strategies to help us deal with it? strategies to help us deal with it? strategies to help us deal with it? >> So, I should first say that I basically >> So, I should first say that I basically >> So, I should first say that I basically have a personal PhD in rumination. I'm have a personal PhD in rumination. I'm have a personal PhD in rumination. I'm an expert in getting up at three in the an expert in getting up at three in the an expert in getting up at three in the morning and letting myself spiral. And morning and letting myself spiral. And morning and letting myself spiral. And so there's a reason I devoted a whole so there's a reason I devoted a whole so there's a reason I devoted a whole chapter to it, which is that um chapter to it, which is that um chapter to it, which is that um rumination gets us all. Um if if you rumination gets us all. Um if if you rumination gets us all. Um if if you haven't experienced rumination, consider haven't experienced rumination, consider haven't experienced rumination, consider yourself one of the lucky ones cuz I yourself one of the lucky ones cuz I yourself one of the lucky ones cuz I think most people have in some form or think most people have in some form or think most people have in some form or another. But you know, we are thinking another. But you know, we are thinking another. But you know, we are thinking and problem solving machines. So and problem solving machines. So and problem solving machines. So typically when we confront a problem, we typically when we confront a problem, we typically when we confront a problem, we want to figure out a solution and that want to figure out a solution and that want to figure out a solution and that usually serves us very well. usually serves us very well. usually serves us very well. The problem happens when it turns into The problem happens when it turns into The problem happens when it turns into rumination. So rumination by definition rumination. So rumination by definition rumination. So rumination by definition is when we are trying to solve a is when we are trying to solve a is when we are trying to solve a problem, but we're actually running in problem, but we're actually running in problem, but we're actually running in circles and we're making no progress at circles and we're making no progress at circles and we're making no progress at all on the problem. We have the illusion all on the problem. We have the illusion all on the problem. We have the illusion that we're making progress. So we think that we're making progress. So we think that we're making progress. So we think to ourselves, well, if I just replay to ourselves, well, if I just replay to ourselves, well, if I just replay that interaction that was so awkward that interaction that was so awkward that interaction that was so awkward with my coworker one more time, maybe with my coworker one more time, maybe with my coworker one more time, maybe I'll feel better about it. Maybe I'll I'll feel better about it. Maybe I'll I'll feel better about it. Maybe I'll figure out what went wrong. maybe I'll figure out what went wrong. maybe I'll figure out what went wrong. maybe I'll be able to go back in the past and be able to go back in the past and be able to go back in the past and change my reaction and make it better. change my reaction and make it better. change my reaction and make it better. We can kind of engage in magical We can kind of engage in magical We can kind of engage in magical thinking, but we actually are making no thinking, but we actually are making no thinking, but we actually are making no progress at all. And we're actually just progress at all. And we're actually just progress at all. And we're actually just doubling down on our negative emotions. doubling down on our negative emotions. doubling down on our negative emotions. And so I think one of the reasons why we And so I think one of the reasons why we And so I think one of the reasons why we ruminate is because again, we like ruminate is because again, we like ruminate is because again, we like certainty. We like clarity. We like certainty. We like clarity. We like certainty. We like clarity. We like definitive answers. And so when we are definitive answers. And so when we are definitive answers. And so when we are faced with a lot of uncertainty or faced with a lot of uncertainty or faced with a lot of uncertainty or anxiety in an effort to quell those anxiety in an effort to quell those anxiety in an effort to quell those emotions, we out we try to outthink the emotions, we out we try to outthink the emotions, we out we try to outthink the problem space when in actuality there problem space when in actuality there problem space when in actuality there are no definitive answers to be found. are no definitive answers to be found. are no definitive answers to be found. So I talk in the book for example about So I talk in the book for example about So I talk in the book for example about a woman named Florence who's navigating a woman named Florence who's navigating a woman named Florence who's navigating the aftermath of an unexpected divorce. the aftermath of an unexpected divorce. the aftermath of an unexpected divorce. She's a science journalist. She thinks She's a science journalist. She thinks She's a science journalist. She thinks that she can kind of hack her heartbreak that she can kind of hack her heartbreak that she can kind of hack her heartbreak and find her way out of it. And so she and find her way out of it. And so she and find her way out of it. And so she commits herself to doing a deep dive. commits herself to doing a deep dive. commits herself to doing a deep dive. She thinks, "Okay, if I can just figure She thinks, "Okay, if I can just figure She thinks, "Okay, if I can just figure out what led our marriage to end, then out what led our marriage to end, then out what led our marriage to end, then I'll feel better. If I can just figure I'll feel better. If I can just figure I'll feel better. If I can just figure out why he stopped loving me, then I'll out why he stopped loving me, then I'll out why he stopped loving me, then I'll make sure I never get in this situation make sure I never get in this situation make sure I never get in this situation again. If I can just figure out what I again. If I can just figure out what I again. If I can just figure out what I did wrong, then I will avoid a future did wrong, then I will avoid a future did wrong, then I will avoid a future breakup." These are all elucory breakup." These are all elucory breakup." These are all elucory guarantees, right? There's no such thing guarantees, right? There's no such thing guarantees, right? There's no such thing as getting such clarity that you can as getting such clarity that you can as getting such clarity that you can insulate yourself from any future risks. insulate yourself from any future risks. insulate yourself from any future risks. And so in that particular chapter, I And so in that particular chapter, I And so in that particular chapter, I actually have several portraits of actually have several portraits of actually have several portraits of people who are in these mental spirals people who are in these mental spirals people who are in these mental spirals for many different reasons. So one of for many different reasons. So one of for many different reasons. So one of them has a panic attack on air as a them has a panic attack on air as a them has a panic attack on air as a journalist and has to contend with a journalist and has to contend with a journalist and has to contend with a career that is now under threat. Another career that is now under threat. Another career that is now under threat. Another person is dealing with an unknown person is dealing with an unknown person is dealing with an unknown medical diagnosis. Another person is medical diagnosis. Another person is medical diagnosis. Another person is dealing with heartbreak. Another person dealing with heartbreak. Another person dealing with heartbreak. Another person is dealing with eco anxiety. And yet is dealing with eco anxiety. And yet is dealing with eco anxiety. And yet they're all having to to our an earlier they're all having to to our an earlier they're all having to to our an earlier conversation we had contending with the conversation we had contending with the conversation we had contending with the same anxieties and worries and same anxieties and worries and same anxieties and worries and ruminative spirals and are trying to ruminative spirals and are trying to ruminative spirals and are trying to find ways to break out of the mental find ways to break out of the mental find ways to break out of the mental prisons they've constructed and to prisons they've constructed and to prisons they've constructed and to actually emerge to see their situation actually emerge to see their situation actually emerge to see their situation from new perspectives or with greater from new perspectives or with greater from new perspectives or with greater clarity. clarity. clarity. >> Yeah, it's such a common issue that >> Yeah, it's such a common issue that >> Yeah, it's such a common issue that keeps many people stuck. You do have in keeps many people stuck. You do have in keeps many people stuck. You do have in your survival kit at the back and in your survival kit at the back and in your survival kit at the back and in that chapter all kinds of uh practical that chapter all kinds of uh practical that chapter all kinds of uh practical strategies to help psychological strategies to help psychological strategies to help psychological distancing, cognitive reappraisal, distancing, cognitive reappraisal, distancing, cognitive reappraisal, mental time travel or effects of mental time travel or effects of mental time travel or effects of labeling, distraction. labeling, distraction. labeling, distraction. Are there any one of those strategies or Are there any one of those strategies or Are there any one of those strategies or a couple of them that you'd like to talk a couple of them that you'd like to talk a couple of them that you'd like to talk about? about? about? >> Oh, sure. Yeah. And and I should also um >> Oh, sure. Yeah. And and I should also um >> Oh, sure. Yeah. And and I should also um share that I encourage readers to be really I encourage readers to be really experimental with the tools that I've experimental with the tools that I've experimental with the tools that I've given them. Some tools will work in given them. Some tools will work in given them. Some tools will work in certain situations and not in others. certain situations and not in others. certain situations and not in others. They'll work for one change but not They'll work for one change but not They'll work for one change but not another. They'll work for certain people another. They'll work for certain people another. They'll work for certain people but not another person. And so it's but not another person. And so it's but not another person. And so it's really important to have an experimental really important to have an experimental really important to have an experimental mindset when it comes to engaging with mindset when it comes to engaging with mindset when it comes to engaging with these tools. There's a couple that I use these tools. There's a couple that I use these tools. There's a couple that I use regularly. The first is mental time regularly. The first is mental time regularly. The first is mental time travel. So our brains have the travel. So our brains have the travel. So our brains have the remarkable ability to go backwards and remarkable ability to go backwards and remarkable ability to go backwards and forwards in time and we can actually use forwards in time and we can actually use forwards in time and we can actually use this to our advantage when we are stuck this to our advantage when we are stuck this to our advantage when we are stuck in these mental spirals. We can travel in these mental spirals. We can travel in these mental spirals. We can travel into the past to remind ourselves of into the past to remind ourselves of into the past to remind ourselves of moments in which we surprised ourselves moments in which we surprised ourselves moments in which we surprised ourselves with our resilience, our ability to with our resilience, our ability to with our resilience, our ability to overcome any kind of adversity. overcome any kind of adversity. overcome any kind of adversity. >> We can also travel into the future to >> We can also travel into the future to >> We can also travel into the future to remind ourselves that our current remind ourselves that our current remind ourselves that our current problem is in fact transient. So, let's problem is in fact transient. So, let's problem is in fact transient. So, let's say you did have a very uncomfortable or say you did have a very uncomfortable or say you did have a very uncomfortable or negative interaction with a coworker, negative interaction with a coworker, negative interaction with a coworker, right? You find yourself up at 3:00 a.m. right? You find yourself up at 3:00 a.m. right? You find yourself up at 3:00 a.m. replaying that incident over and over replaying that incident over and over replaying that incident over and over again. You don't know how to break out again. You don't know how to break out again. You don't know how to break out of this negative spiral that you're in. of this negative spiral that you're in. of this negative spiral that you're in. You can ask yourself in that moment, how You can ask yourself in that moment, how You can ask yourself in that moment, how am I going to feel about this situation am I going to feel about this situation am I going to feel about this situation 5 hours from now, 5 days from now, 5 5 hours from now, 5 days from now, 5 5 hours from now, 5 days from now, 5 years from now, 15 years from now? What years from now, 15 years from now? What years from now, 15 years from now? What that does is it breeds psychological that does is it breeds psychological that does is it breeds psychological distance between you and your current distance between you and your current distance between you and your current preoccupations because as you likely preoccupations because as you likely preoccupations because as you likely know Rangan, when you're in it, you're know Rangan, when you're in it, you're know Rangan, when you're in it, you're in it. You feel subsumed by these by in it. You feel subsumed by these by in it. You feel subsumed by these by these negative emotions and your the these negative emotions and your the these negative emotions and your the like your camera lens is so zoomed in on like your camera lens is so zoomed in on like your camera lens is so zoomed in on this problem, it's hard to imagine any this problem, it's hard to imagine any this problem, it's hard to imagine any other problem in your life because other problem in your life because other problem in your life because you're solely focused on this. And so you're solely focused on this. And so you're solely focused on this. And so you zoom out the lens and you start to you zoom out the lens and you start to you zoom out the lens and you start to see, oh, wait a second. Well, I'll see, oh, wait a second. Well, I'll see, oh, wait a second. Well, I'll probably either maybe I found a probably either maybe I found a probably either maybe I found a resolution with this coworker in 5 days resolution with this coworker in 5 days resolution with this coworker in 5 days from now or even if I haven't, I mean, from now or even if I haven't, I mean, from now or even if I haven't, I mean, in 5 years from now, this person might in 5 years from now, this person might in 5 years from now, this person might not even be my coworker anymore. And so, not even be my coworker anymore. And so, not even be my coworker anymore. And so, it's just an gentle nudge to your brain it's just an gentle nudge to your brain it's just an gentle nudge to your brain that you might feel this problem is less that you might feel this problem is less that you might feel this problem is less significant to you in the future. significant to you in the future. significant to you in the future. There's also a technique called affect There's also a technique called affect There's also a technique called affect labeling. We can often feel a flurry of labeling. We can often feel a flurry of labeling. We can often feel a flurry of negative emotions in the aftermath of negative emotions in the aftermath of negative emotions in the aftermath of change. And what research shows is that change. And what research shows is that change. And what research shows is that simply giving a label to one of these simply giving a label to one of these simply giving a label to one of these emotions. So identifying what you're emotions. So identifying what you're emotions. So identifying what you're feeling as envy or grief or frustration feeling as envy or grief or frustration feeling as envy or grief or frustration or anger or resentment can help you or anger or resentment can help you or anger or resentment can help you shift your focus away from being the shift your focus away from being the shift your focus away from being the emotion, embodying the emotion to simply emotion, embodying the emotion to simply emotion, embodying the emotion to simply having the emotion. That's another way having the emotion. That's another way having the emotion. That's another way of breeding this kind of psychological of breeding this kind of psychological of breeding this kind of psychological distance. And then I think and again distance. And then I think and again distance. And then I think and again there's there's like a dozen or so of there's there's like a dozen or so of there's there's like a dozen or so of these strategies but I think one that's these strategies but I think one that's these strategies but I think one that's been very helpful to me is to try to been very helpful to me is to try to been very helpful to me is to try to take a take a take a third party view on the problem you're third party view on the problem you're third party view on the problem you're facing. So when we are in that first facing. So when we are in that first facing. So when we are in that first person perspective we have a very person perspective we have a very person perspective we have a very limited narrow vantage point on the limited narrow vantage point on the limited narrow vantage point on the challenge that we're up against and we challenge that we're up against and we challenge that we're up against and we have a certain narrative that we told have a certain narrative that we told have a certain narrative that we told ourselves about what actually led to the ourselves about what actually led to the ourselves about what actually led to the problem. And the goal when you're in a problem. And the goal when you're in a problem. And the goal when you're in a negative mental spiral is to actually negative mental spiral is to actually negative mental spiral is to actually poke holes in your narrative, to poke holes in your narrative, to poke holes in your narrative, to actually see the situation from new actually see the situation from new actually see the situation from new angles, from new perspectives. In some angles, from new perspectives. In some angles, from new perspectives. In some sense, you actually did this with your sense, you actually did this with your sense, you actually did this with your daughter, right? When your daughter was daughter, right? When your daughter was daughter, right? When your daughter was like, "What if I'm not in the same class like, "What if I'm not in the same class like, "What if I'm not in the same class as my friends, you actually gave her a as my friends, you actually gave her a as my friends, you actually gave her a new perspective with which to look at new perspective with which to look at new perspective with which to look at this challenge." Well, if you're not, this challenge." Well, if you're not, this challenge." Well, if you're not, guess what? You might have new guess what? You might have new guess what? You might have new experiences. You might make new friends experiences. You might make new friends experiences. You might make new friends who you never would have met otherwise. who you never would have met otherwise. who you never would have met otherwise. Right? So, you were poking a hole in Right? So, you were poking a hole in Right? So, you were poking a hole in this negative narrative that she had this negative narrative that she had this negative narrative that she had built for herself. built for herself. built for herself. If you don't have a friend who can serve If you don't have a friend who can serve If you don't have a friend who can serve in this cognitive role of saying, "Well, in this cognitive role of saying, "Well, in this cognitive role of saying, "Well, are you sure that that's what they meant are you sure that that's what they meant are you sure that that's what they meant when they said that?" Or, "Are you sure when they said that?" Or, "Are you sure when they said that?" Or, "Are you sure when you said this, you meant this and when you said this, you meant this and when you said this, you meant this and not that? Or are you sure that the not that? Or are you sure that the not that? Or are you sure that the narrative you're telling about yourself narrative you're telling about yourself narrative you're telling about yourself is accurate?" I think you're not really is accurate?" I think you're not really is accurate?" I think you're not really giving yourself enough credit. giving yourself enough credit. giving yourself enough credit. >> You can actually play the role of that >> You can actually play the role of that >> You can actually play the role of that fly on the wall, of that neutral arbiter fly on the wall, of that neutral arbiter fly on the wall, of that neutral arbiter >> by imagining that you are observing the >> by imagining that you are observing the >> by imagining that you are observing the situation from afar. So, you can imagine situation from afar. So, you can imagine situation from afar. So, you can imagine you replay the interaction with you and you replay the interaction with you and you replay the interaction with you and your coworker, but this time you your coworker, but this time you your coworker, but this time you literally imagine yourself as the fly on literally imagine yourself as the fly on literally imagine yourself as the fly on the wall, observing it from both angles, the wall, observing it from both angles, the wall, observing it from both angles, trying to see things from multiple trying to see things from multiple trying to see things from multiple perspectives rather than your own. And perspectives rather than your own. And perspectives rather than your own. And then there's one like little tweak in then there's one like little tweak in then there's one like little tweak in framing that can sound silly, but has framing that can sound silly, but has framing that can sound silly, but has been proven enormously effective across been proven enormously effective across been proven enormously effective across a range of circumstances and across a a range of circumstances and across a a range of circumstances and across a range of negative emotions, which is to range of negative emotions, which is to range of negative emotions, which is to simply coach yourself in the third simply coach yourself in the third simply coach yourself in the third person. So rather than saying in the person. So rather than saying in the person. So rather than saying in the throws of a heated moment, "Oh my god, I throws of a heated moment, "Oh my god, I throws of a heated moment, "Oh my god, I need to get a grip." Which is what I need to get a grip." Which is what I need to get a grip." Which is what I might say to myself, I would instead might say to myself, I would instead might say to myself, I would instead say, "Maya, you need to get a grip." say, "Maya, you need to get a grip." say, "Maya, you need to get a grip." >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> What this does is that it tells your >> What this does is that it tells your >> What this does is that it tells your brain, "You're actually coaching a brain, "You're actually coaching a brain, "You're actually coaching a friend right now." That breeds that friend right now." That breeds that friend right now." That breeds that psychological distance. It gives you a psychological distance. It gives you a psychological distance. It gives you a bit more objectivity on your problem. bit more objectivity on your problem. bit more objectivity on your problem. And then importantly, it helps cultivate And then importantly, it helps cultivate And then importantly, it helps cultivate more self-compassion because we often more self-compassion because we often more self-compassion because we often reserve the least amount of compassion reserve the least amount of compassion reserve the least amount of compassion for ourselves. We have plenty on reserve for ourselves. We have plenty on reserve for ourselves. We have plenty on reserve for others, but we celebrate, you know, for others, but we celebrate, you know, for others, but we celebrate, you know, we we replay the same situation over and we we replay the same situation over and we we replay the same situation over and over again in horror like, "Oh, I can't over again in horror like, "Oh, I can't over again in horror like, "Oh, I can't believe I said that. I can't believe I believe I said that. I can't believe I believe I said that. I can't believe I did that. I'll never forgive myself." did that. I'll never forgive myself." did that. I'll never forgive myself." >> But you would never talk like that to a >> But you would never talk like that to a >> But you would never talk like that to a friend. And so, when you coach yourself friend. And so, when you coach yourself friend. And so, when you coach yourself in the third person, you empathize more in the third person, you empathize more in the third person, you empathize more with yourself. you start to see, oh, with yourself. you start to see, oh, with yourself. you start to see, oh, actually, it's okay that you aired in actually, it's okay that you aired in actually, it's okay that you aired in this way. All humans make mistakes. this way. All humans make mistakes. this way. All humans make mistakes. >> Yeah, I love that. A real quick whistle >> Yeah, I love that. A real quick whistle >> Yeah, I love that. A real quick whistle stop tour, practical things we can do to stop tour, practical things we can do to stop tour, practical things we can do to deal with rumination. One thing you make deal with rumination. One thing you make deal with rumination. One thing you make really clear in that chat, which I think really clear in that chat, which I think really clear in that chat, which I think is really important is this idea that is really important is this idea that is really important is this idea that loneliness and rumination often mutually loneliness and rumination often mutually loneliness and rumination often mutually reinforce each other, creating a vicious reinforce each other, creating a vicious reinforce each other, creating a vicious cycle. And I guess the take-home is, you cycle. And I guess the take-home is, you cycle. And I guess the take-home is, you know, get around with other people. or know, get around with other people. or know, get around with other people. or you know don't stay isolated in that you know don't stay isolated in that you know don't stay isolated in that moment and it will make it worse. moment and it will make it worse. moment and it will make it worse. >> My listen it it's been such a joy >> My listen it it's been such a joy >> My listen it it's been such a joy talking to you. I think we've barely talking to you. I think we've barely talking to you. I think we've barely scratched the surface of what's in your scratched the surface of what's in your scratched the surface of what's in your book. The book is called the other side book. The book is called the other side book. The book is called the other side of change. Who we become when life makes of change. Who we become when life makes of change. Who we become when life makes other plans. other plans. other plans. >> Just to finish off Maya, >> Just to finish off Maya, >> Just to finish off Maya, >> your >> your >> your final chapter is very very personal. You final chapter is very very personal. You final chapter is very very personal. You you open up about you open up about you open up about your own struggle with trying to become your own struggle with trying to become your own struggle with trying to become a mom and starting a mom and starting a mom and starting a family with your partner. a family with your partner. a family with your partner. Having written this book, having Having written this book, having Having written this book, having examined change for so long, examined change for so long, examined change for so long, what does your relationship with what does your relationship with what does your relationship with starting a family look like today? It's been such a deeply It's been such a deeply personal and profound experience for me personal and profound experience for me personal and profound experience for me to write this book. I mean, it was truly to write this book. I mean, it was truly to write this book. I mean, it was truly it was truly life-changing. I don't see it was truly life-changing. I don't see it was truly life-changing. I don't see the world in the same way anymore, the world in the same way anymore, the world in the same way anymore, having had the the deep honor of having had the the deep honor of having had the the deep honor of interviewing people for this book. But interviewing people for this book. But interviewing people for this book. But more importantly, more importantly, more importantly, it's changed my life because I was able it's changed my life because I was able it's changed my life because I was able to to to in real time integrate their wisdom, in real time integrate their wisdom, in real time integrate their wisdom, their advice, their knowledge into my their advice, their knowledge into my their advice, their knowledge into my own experience of navigating unexpected own experience of navigating unexpected own experience of navigating unexpected change. And I transformed in ways that I change. And I transformed in ways that I change. And I transformed in ways that I wasn't expecting. And I should say, by wasn't expecting. And I should say, by wasn't expecting. And I should say, by the way, you know, coming from a the way, you know, coming from a the way, you know, coming from a scientific background, scientific background, scientific background, I'm as skeptical as the next person, I'm as skeptical as the next person, I'm as skeptical as the next person, right? So when I started to observe, right? So when I started to observe, right? So when I started to observe, wow, there is this silver lining to wow, there is this silver lining to wow, there is this silver lining to unexpected change. People are feeling so unexpected change. People are feeling so unexpected change. People are feeling so much gratitude, I was like, really? Is much gratitude, I was like, really? Is much gratitude, I was like, really? Is that just what you're telling yourself that just what you're telling yourself that just what you're telling yourself to make yourself feel better? You know, to make yourself feel better? You know, to make yourself feel better? You know, I I I like to say I'm allergic to two I I I like to say I'm allergic to two I I I like to say I'm allergic to two things. Um, soy and platitudes. And so, things. Um, soy and platitudes. And so, things. Um, soy and platitudes. And so, um, I wasn't really sure what to make of um, I wasn't really sure what to make of um, I wasn't really sure what to make of it, but then I witnessed this it, but then I witnessed this it, but then I witnessed this extraordinary evolution within myself extraordinary evolution within myself extraordinary evolution within myself that really made me believe the thesis that really made me believe the thesis that really made me believe the thesis of the book. And there have been many of the book. And there have been many of the book. And there have been many parts to this journey, but I just want parts to this journey, but I just want parts to this journey, but I just want to share one anecdote. So, um I remember to share one anecdote. So, um I remember to share one anecdote. So, um I remember on the night of the second miscarriage on the night of the second miscarriage on the night of the second miscarriage when we had found out we lost identical when we had found out we lost identical when we had found out we lost identical twins and it was such a roller coaster twins and it was such a roller coaster twins and it was such a roller coaster of a day run because just a few hours of a day run because just a few hours of a day run because just a few hours earlier we had seen healthy beating earlier we had seen healthy beating earlier we had seen healthy beating hearts on ultrasound. And so to go from hearts on ultrasound. And so to go from hearts on ultrasound. And so to go from the highest high to the lowest of lows the highest high to the lowest of lows the highest high to the lowest of lows was so jarring for my nervous system. I was so jarring for my nervous system. I was so jarring for my nervous system. I I I just I could barely piece together I I just I could barely piece together I I just I could barely piece together reality, you know, my it was like my reality, you know, my it was like my reality, you know, my it was like my brain was constantly having to catch up brain was constantly having to catch up brain was constantly having to catch up to the latest information we were to the latest information we were to the latest information we were getting. And I still remember that night getting. And I still remember that night getting. And I still remember that night as we were winding down and I was, you as we were winding down and I was, you as we were winding down and I was, you know, struggling to think, am I even know, struggling to think, am I even know, struggling to think, am I even going to sleep tonight? My husband Jimmy going to sleep tonight? My husband Jimmy going to sleep tonight? My husband Jimmy comes into the room and he said, "May is comes into the room and he said, "May is comes into the room and he said, "May is his pet name for me." He goes, "May his pet name for me." He goes, "May his pet name for me." He goes, "May let's just say a couple things that let's just say a couple things that let's just say a couple things that we're grateful for." we're grateful for." we're grateful for." And I remember in this moment being And I remember in this moment being And I remember in this moment being like, "Dude, no. You take your toxic like, "Dude, no. You take your toxic like, "Dude, no. You take your toxic positivity into the corner. You do the positivity into the corner. You do the positivity into the corner. You do the gratitude exercise. Okay, I'm staying gratitude exercise. Okay, I'm staying gratitude exercise. Okay, I'm staying under the sheets feeling badly about my under the sheets feeling badly about my under the sheets feeling badly about my life and myself." And yet, um, when I life and myself." And yet, um, when I life and myself." And yet, um, when I looked up at Jimmy, there was something looked up at Jimmy, there was something looked up at Jimmy, there was something just so sweet and earnest about this just so sweet and earnest about this just so sweet and earnest about this request, you know, and and I was request, you know, and and I was request, you know, and and I was reminded that I was always also looking reminded that I was always also looking reminded that I was always also looking at the person that I was most grateful at the person that I was most grateful at the person that I was most grateful for in this world. And so I thought to for in this world. And so I thought to for in this world. And so I thought to myself, "Okay, Maya, just do this hard myself, "Okay, Maya, just do this hard myself, "Okay, Maya, just do this hard thing. Like go through the gratitude thing. Like go through the gratitude thing. Like go through the gratitude exercise. At a minimum, you'll get Jimmy exercise. At a minimum, you'll get Jimmy exercise. At a minimum, you'll get Jimmy off your back." And so I start with my off your back." And so I start with my off your back." And so I start with my list. I say, "Well, first of all, Jimmy, list. I say, "Well, first of all, Jimmy, list. I say, "Well, first of all, Jimmy, I'm so grateful for you. And you know, I'm so grateful for you. And you know, I'm so grateful for you. And you know, this experience could have driven us this experience could have driven us this experience could have driven us apart, and I'm so grateful that it's apart, and I'm so grateful that it's apart, and I'm so grateful that it's brought us closer together. I'm also so brought us closer together. I'm also so brought us closer together. I'm also so grateful that I'm an aunt to my six grateful that I'm an aunt to my six grateful that I'm an aunt to my six nieces and nephews. They fill my life nieces and nephews. They fill my life nieces and nephews. They fill my life with so much joy. with so much joy. with so much joy. Um, I I'm grateful for the the radiant Um, I I'm grateful for the the radiant Um, I I'm grateful for the the radiant sunshine in California and and the fact sunshine in California and and the fact sunshine in California and and the fact that I get to work with the same people that I get to work with the same people that I get to work with the same people at my job that I've worked with for over at my job that I've worked with for over at my job that I've worked with for over 10 years. What a joy to work alongside 10 years. What a joy to work alongside 10 years. What a joy to work alongside my friends. And this list just poured my friends. And this list just poured my friends. And this list just poured out of me. I mean, I wasn't expecting to out of me. I mean, I wasn't expecting to out of me. I mean, I wasn't expecting to feel overcome by gratitude, but I I just feel overcome by gratitude, but I I just feel overcome by gratitude, but I I just kept having item after item after item kept having item after item after item kept having item after item after item after item. And I swear something after item. And I swear something after item. And I swear something magical happened in that moment because magical happened in that moment because magical happened in that moment because I felt myself zoom out on my life. I felt myself zoom out on my life. I felt myself zoom out on my life. And I realized that And I realized that And I realized that in my effort to achieve this goal of in my effort to achieve this goal of in my effort to achieve this goal of becoming a parent, I had actually becoming a parent, I had actually becoming a parent, I had actually developed tunnel vision. developed tunnel vision. developed tunnel vision. I had become so single-mindedly focused I had become so single-mindedly focused I had become so single-mindedly focused on this goal that I had lost sight of on this goal that I had lost sight of on this goal that I had lost sight of how otherwise rich and multi-dimensional how otherwise rich and multi-dimensional how otherwise rich and multi-dimensional my life was. That there were so many my life was. That there were so many my life was. That there were so many parts of my identity that I found so parts of my identity that I found so parts of my identity that I found so much meaning and value in that were much meaning and value in that were much meaning and value in that were still so very much intact. still so very much intact. still so very much intact. And And And that was a transformative moment for me that was a transformative moment for me that was a transformative moment for me because because because it was a reminder that when we go it was a reminder that when we go it was a reminder that when we go through a big change, it really can make through a big change, it really can make through a big change, it really can make us feel like us feel like us feel like everything in our life is gone. everything in our life is gone. everything in our life is gone. Everything has been threatened. But Everything has been threatened. But Everything has been threatened. But there's often that's often a fiction. there's often that's often a fiction. there's often that's often a fiction. And so, did I go to bed that night And so, did I go to bed that night And so, did I go to bed that night feeling amazing and happy? Of course feeling amazing and happy? Of course feeling amazing and happy? Of course not. Still felt horrible. not. Still felt horrible. not. Still felt horrible. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. But I did go to bed that night feeling But I did go to bed that night feeling But I did go to bed that night feeling more whole. more whole. more whole. And what Jimmy didn't know, he's a And what Jimmy didn't know, he's a And what Jimmy didn't know, he's a software engineer, is that he was software engineer, is that he was software engineer, is that he was actually engaging me in what's called a actually engaging me in what's called a actually engaging me in what's called a self-affirmation exercise. And anyone self-affirmation exercise. And anyone self-affirmation exercise. And anyone can do this exercise. It can take you 5 can do this exercise. It can take you 5 can do this exercise. It can take you 5 minutes. You could do it right after minutes. You could do it right after minutes. You could do it right after listening to this podcast. But all it listening to this podcast. But all it listening to this podcast. But all it involves is just writing down all of the involves is just writing down all of the involves is just writing down all of the parts of your life and your identity parts of your life and your identity parts of your life and your identity that bring you a sense of meaning and that bring you a sense of meaning and that bring you a sense of meaning and purpose and fulfillment. And purpose and fulfillment. And purpose and fulfillment. And importantly, you want to focus on the importantly, you want to focus on the importantly, you want to focus on the parts of your life that are not parts of your life that are not parts of your life that are not threatened by the change you're going threatened by the change you're going threatened by the change you're going through. So if you're experiencing a through. So if you're experiencing a through. So if you're experiencing a rough patch in your relationship, you rough patch in your relationship, you rough patch in your relationship, you might focus on your spiritual life. Or might focus on your spiritual life. Or might focus on your spiritual life. Or if you're having a rough go of it go of if you're having a rough go of it go of if you're having a rough go of it go of it at work, you might focus on uh the it at work, you might focus on uh the it at work, you might focus on uh the fact that you're part of this wonderful fact that you're part of this wonderful fact that you're part of this wonderful pickle ball community that you just pickle ball community that you just pickle ball community that you just joined and that like it's really fun to joined and that like it's really fun to joined and that like it's really fun to meet everyone on Thursdays and to have a meet everyone on Thursdays and to have a meet everyone on Thursdays and to have a drink right after. And what a drink right after. And what a drink right after. And what a self-affirmation exercise can do is not self-affirmation exercise can do is not self-affirmation exercise can do is not only decrease denial because you only decrease denial because you only decrease denial because you realize, oh, my entire identity is not realize, oh, my entire identity is not realize, oh, my entire identity is not under threat. And so therefore, you're under threat. And so therefore, you're under threat. And so therefore, you're more willing to absorb reality versus more willing to absorb reality versus more willing to absorb reality versus reject it. But it can massively boost reject it. But it can massively boost reject it. But it can massively boost your resilience and well-being in the your resilience and well-being in the your resilience and well-being in the longer term. longer term. longer term. Okay, so that's one part of the story. Okay, so that's one part of the story. Okay, so that's one part of the story. And then if you don't mind, I just want And then if you don't mind, I just want And then if you don't mind, I just want to share that to share that to share that I'm in such a different place today than I'm in such a different place today than I'm in such a different place today than I ever thought I would be. And I think I ever thought I would be. And I think I ever thought I would be. And I think that's the power of change. Um, if you that's the power of change. Um, if you that's the power of change. Um, if you had asked me on that night, had asked me on that night, had asked me on that night, will there ever be a silver lining to will there ever be a silver lining to will there ever be a silver lining to this? I would have said no. this? I would have said no. this? I would have said no. Maya, will you ever feel happy and Maya, will you ever feel happy and Maya, will you ever feel happy and fulfilled in the absence of children? I fulfilled in the absence of children? I fulfilled in the absence of children? I would have said no. would have said no. would have said no. I really felt like there was nothing I really felt like there was nothing I really felt like there was nothing redemptive about this situation redemptive about this situation redemptive about this situation whatsoever. whatsoever. whatsoever. And yet here I am many years later, And yet here I am many years later, And yet here I am many years later, still child-free, and I am the happiest, still child-free, and I am the happiest, still child-free, and I am the happiest, most hopeful, most liberated version of most hopeful, most liberated version of most hopeful, most liberated version of myself that I've ever been. And I I myself that I've ever been. And I I myself that I've ever been. And I I really tr truly mean this. I never saw really tr truly mean this. I never saw really tr truly mean this. I never saw that coming. I wasn't expecting to have that coming. I wasn't expecting to have that coming. I wasn't expecting to have this personal evolution. this personal evolution. this personal evolution. And it has been one of the greatest And it has been one of the greatest And it has been one of the greatest gifts of the experience of writing the gifts of the experience of writing the gifts of the experience of writing the other side of change because to feel other side of change because to feel other side of change because to feel like I have become a new person on the like I have become a new person on the like I have become a new person on the other side even though I didn't achieve other side even though I didn't achieve other side even though I didn't achieve this lifelong dream this lifelong dream this lifelong dream >> that there was still so much happiness >> that there was still so much happiness >> that there was still so much happiness and richness to be found. and richness to be found. and richness to be found. >> I hope that's >> I hope that's >> I hope that's I hope there's something meaningful for I hope there's something meaningful for I hope there's something meaningful for that in someone who's listening who that in someone who's listening who that in someone who's listening who cannot see the light at the end of the cannot see the light at the end of the cannot see the light at the end of the tunnel. It's a beautiful message. It's a tunnel. It's a beautiful message. It's a tunnel. It's a beautiful message. It's a hopeful message. hopeful message. hopeful message. As you say towards the end of your book, As you say towards the end of your book, As you say towards the end of your book, change does not have to limit us. It can change does not have to limit us. It can change does not have to limit us. It can actually expand us. Stay curious when actually expand us. Stay curious when actually expand us. Stay curious when life makes other plans. Change can life makes other plans. Change can life makes other plans. Change can transform us in unexpected ways. We transform us in unexpected ways. We transform us in unexpected ways. We simply don't know how until we get simply don't know how until we get simply don't know how until we get there. Maya, it's been such a joy there. Maya, it's been such a joy there. Maya, it's been such a joy talking to you. I think the book is talking to you. I think the book is talking to you. I think the book is fantastic. It's the other side of fantastic. It's the other side of fantastic. It's the other side of change. who we become when life makes change. who we become when life makes change. who we become when life makes other plans. And um yeah, I thoroughly other plans. And um yeah, I thoroughly other plans. And um yeah, I thoroughly enjoyed reading it. I thoroughly enjoyed enjoyed reading it. I thoroughly enjoyed enjoyed reading it. I thoroughly enjoyed talking to you and I hope we get to meet talking to you and I hope we get to meet talking to you and I hope we get to meet in person at some point in the future. in person at some point in the future. in person at some point in the future. >> Thank you so much for having me, Rangan. >> Thank you so much for having me, Rangan. >> Thank you so much for having me, Rangan. It's really an honor. It's really an honor. It's really an honor. >> If you enjoyed that conversation, then I >> If you enjoyed that conversation, then I >> If you enjoyed that conversation, then I think you are really going to enjoy this think you are really going to enjoy this think you are really going to enjoy this one. Most things that adults are doing one. Most things that adults are doing one. Most things that adults are doing that is counterproductive have a logic, that is counterproductive have a logic, that is counterproductive have a logic, a certain logic, a twisted logic you a certain logic, a twisted logic you a certain logic, a twisted logic you might say, that dates back to their might say, that dates back to their might say, that dates back to their early childhood where that behavior made early childhood where that behavior made early childhood where that behavior made a certain sort of sense.