The Uncomfortable Science Of Sex Differences - Steve Stewart-Williams

Do you think that you could have Do you think that you could have published this book 6 years ago? published this book 6 years ago? published this book 6 years ago? >> I think that I could have, but it would >> I think that I could have, but it would >> I think that I could have, but it would have been a less wise move. have been a less wise move. have been a less wise move. >> [laughter] >> [laughter] >> [laughter] >> I think it would have gone down >> I think it would have gone down >> I think it would have gone down a lot worse 6 years ago. Things have a lot worse 6 years ago. Things have a lot worse 6 years ago. Things have kind of cooled off a little bit, I kind of cooled off a little bit, I kind of cooled off a little bit, I think. think. think. >> Why is talking about sex differences so >> Why is talking about sex differences so >> Why is talking about sex differences so controversial? controversial? controversial? >> Well, it's a good question, and I think >> Well, it's a good question, and I think >> Well, it's a good question, and I think that it's a few things. I mean, that it's a few things. I mean, that it's a few things. I mean, sometimes it surprises me cuz sometimes sometimes it surprises me cuz sometimes sometimes it surprises me cuz sometimes I think a lot of the differences that I think a lot of the differences that I think a lot of the differences that we're talking about, they're really we're talking about, they're really we're talking about, they're really quite modest differences. Um they are quite modest differences. Um they are quite modest differences. Um they are often differences in preferences rather often differences in preferences rather often differences in preferences rather than cognitive abilities. So, they're than cognitive abilities. So, they're than cognitive abilities. So, they're kind of neutral as far as I'm concerned. kind of neutral as far as I'm concerned. kind of neutral as far as I'm concerned. Um and if anything, I think probably Um and if anything, I think probably Um and if anything, I think probably they put men in a worse light than they put men in a worse light than they put men in a worse light than women. Um so, sometimes it surprises me, women. Um so, sometimes it surprises me, women. Um so, sometimes it surprises me, but I think really the main reason is a but I think really the main reason is a but I think really the main reason is a long history of sexism against women. long history of sexism against women. long history of sexism against women. And I think that we've got quite a long And I think that we've got quite a long And I think that we've got quite a long science as well has a bit of a sorted science as well has a bit of a sorted science as well has a bit of a sorted history in terms of how we've spoken history in terms of how we've spoken history in terms of how we've spoken about women, especially in the 1800s. about women, especially in the 1800s. about women, especially in the 1800s. I've got a quote, one of my favorite I've got a quote, one of my favorite I've got a quote, one of my favorite quotes, one of my favorite examples of quotes, one of my favorite examples of quotes, one of my favorite examples of this is from um this is from um this is from um scientist by the name of Gustave Le Bon, scientist by the name of Gustave Le Bon, scientist by the name of Gustave Le Bon, and he he wrote that and he he wrote that and he he wrote that uh sure, there are some women who are as uh sure, there are some women who are as uh sure, there are some women who are as intellectually accomplished as your intellectually accomplished as your intellectually accomplished as your typical man, but they're about as rare typical man, but they're about as rare typical man, but they're about as rare as a as a two-headed gorilla. And so, as a as a two-headed gorilla. And so, as a as a two-headed gorilla. And so, therefore, we don't really need to think therefore, we don't really need to think therefore, we don't really need to think about think about [clears throat] them. about think about [clears throat] them. about think about [clears throat] them. Um so, with stuff like that in our Um so, with stuff like that in our Um so, with stuff like that in our background, it's I guess not surprising background, it's I guess not surprising background, it's I guess not surprising that people are a little bit a little that people are a little bit a little that people are a little bit a little bit nervous about talking about evolved bit nervous about talking about evolved bit nervous about talking about evolved sex differences, a little bit worried sex differences, a little bit worried sex differences, a little bit worried that if we start doing that, it's going that if we start doing that, it's going that if we start doing that, it's going to open the door to that kind of to open the door to that kind of to open the door to that kind of that kind of sexism. Um I think they're that kind of sexism. Um I think they're that kind of sexism. Um I think they're wrong to worry about that. I think that wrong to worry about that. I think that wrong to worry about that. I think that really the science of sex differences really the science of sex differences really the science of sex differences has disproved those kind of ideas. Um has disproved those kind of ideas. Um has disproved those kind of ideas. Um and I think I think as well that we can and I think I think as well that we can and I think I think as well that we can treat men and women respectfully and uh treat men and women respectfully and uh treat men and women respectfully and uh and as you mainly and treat them well uh and as you mainly and treat them well uh and as you mainly and treat them well uh even if men and women are not identical even if men and women are not identical even if men and women are not identical on average on every single trait. on average on every single trait. on average on every single trait. >> Yeah, I suppose >> Yeah, I suppose >> Yeah, I suppose the history of science is to sex the history of science is to sex the history of science is to sex differences what the Nazi Party is to differences what the Nazi Party is to differences what the Nazi Party is to behavioral genetics. behavioral genetics. behavioral genetics. >> Right. Right. Exactly. Yeah. >> Right. Right. Exactly. Yeah. >> Right. Right. Exactly. Yeah. Yeah. And I do think that science is the Yeah. And I do think that science is the Yeah. And I do think that science is the solution to the early sexism rather than solution to the early sexism rather than solution to the early sexism rather than a continuation of it. a continuation of it. a continuation of it. >> Yeah, that's a great way to put it. All >> Yeah, that's a great way to put it. All >> Yeah, that's a great way to put it. All right. Why is it important to study sex right. Why is it important to study sex right. Why is it important to study sex differences then? Why why should anybody differences then? Why why should anybody differences then? Why why should anybody care? care? care? >> Uh I think lots of reasons. The main >> Uh I think lots of reasons. The main >> Uh I think lots of reasons. The main reason for me is I think it's just reason for me is I think it's just reason for me is I think it's just deeply deeply fascinating. I just think deeply deeply fascinating. I just think deeply deeply fascinating. I just think it's it's it's >> It's the [laughter] best. Yeah. It's the >> It's the [laughter] best. Yeah. It's the >> It's the [laughter] best. Yeah. It's the It's the best, dude. Me and you fell in It's the best, dude. Me and you fell in It's the best, dude. Me and you fell in love with the same book, The Moral love with the same book, The Moral love with the same book, The Moral Animal by Robert Wright. He He changed Animal by Robert Wright. He He changed Animal by Robert Wright. He He changed my life. my life. my life. >> Yeah, likewise. It changed my life. It >> Yeah, likewise. It changed my life. It >> Yeah, likewise. It changed my life. It um shaped the rest of my career. Um just um shaped the rest of my career. Um just um shaped the rest of my career. Um just I think it's deeply fascinating. And um I think it's deeply fascinating. And um I think it's deeply fascinating. And um Yeah, I remember when I read that book Yeah, I remember when I read that book Yeah, I remember when I read that book uh that's when I fell in love with uh uh that's when I fell in love with uh uh that's when I fell in love with uh fell fell in love with evolutionary fell fell in love with evolutionary fell fell in love with evolutionary psychology. And in particular, fell in psychology. And in particular, fell in psychology. And in particular, fell in love with the evolutionary psychology of love with the evolutionary psychology of love with the evolutionary psychology of sex differences. And I got the same sex differences. And I got the same sex differences. And I got the same feeling that I did when I was a a kid feeling that I did when I was a a kid feeling that I did when I was a a kid and I first understood how the phases of and I first understood how the phases of and I first understood how the phases of the moon work. And everything just the moon work. And everything just the moon work. And everything just clicked into place. Suddenly, the whole clicked into place. Suddenly, the whole clicked into place. Suddenly, the whole thing made sense. thing made sense. thing made sense. >> Oh, that is why it looks that way. That >> Oh, that is why it looks that way. That >> Oh, that is why it looks that way. That is why people are different in that way. is why people are different in that way. is why people are different in that way. >> Exactly. Exactly. It all made sense. It >> Exactly. Exactly. It all made sense. It >> Exactly. Exactly. It all made sense. It was clear that it was true. And uh yeah, was clear that it was true. And uh yeah, was clear that it was true. And uh yeah, just uh sort of instant insight. And uh just uh sort of instant insight. And uh just uh sort of instant insight. And uh yeah. yeah. yeah. >> Interesting. Even as you're saying it, I >> Interesting. Even as you're saying it, I >> Interesting. Even as you're saying it, I can hear this sort of can hear this sort of can hear this sort of critic preparedness inside of my mind critic preparedness inside of my mind critic preparedness inside of my mind going going going "Why would you when you read a book Why "Why would you when you read a book Why "Why would you when you read a book Why would both of us when we read a book be would both of us when we read a book be would both of us when we read a book be so enamored by sex differences dot dot so enamored by sex differences dot dot so enamored by sex differences dot dot dot That must be because you are dot That must be because you are dot That must be because you are secretly a sexist who is looking to try secretly a sexist who is looking to try secretly a sexist who is looking to try and keep people in their place and not and keep people in their place and not and keep people in their place and not ever have any progress and da da da da ever have any progress and da da da da ever have any progress and da da da da da You know what I mean?" Like the da You know what I mean?" Like the da You know what I mean?" Like the conversation around this has become so conversation around this has become so conversation around this has become so tarnished. Um that tarnished. Um that tarnished. Um that >> Accusatory. >> Accusatory. >> Accusatory. >> Yes. Yes. Yeah. That you can't have an >> Yes. Yes. Yeah. That you can't have an >> Yes. Yes. Yeah. That you can't have an interest in something which is interest in something which is interest in something which is fundamental and fascinating and really fundamental and fascinating and really fundamental and fascinating and really important, right? So that you don't try important, right? So that you don't try important, right? So that you don't try and and and people aren't trying to fight against people aren't trying to fight against people aren't trying to fight against something so that we don't fully account something so that we don't fully account something so that we don't fully account for and understand why behavior unfolds for and understand why behavior unfolds for and understand why behavior unfolds in particular ways that can allow us to in particular ways that can allow us to in particular ways that can allow us to have a better society, a society that's have a better society, a society that's have a better society, a society that's got outcomes that's more close to what got outcomes that's more close to what got outcomes that's more close to what we want. Fascinating. we want. Fascinating. we want. Fascinating. >> Yeah, it is. Um yeah, so I do >> Yeah, it is. Um yeah, so I do >> Yeah, it is. Um yeah, so I do I agree with that and I think I agree with that and I think I agree with that and I think uh yeah. uh yeah. uh yeah. Sorry, I just Sorry, I just Sorry, I just uh I just went blank. What was What was uh I just went blank. What was What was uh I just went blank. What was What was I going to say about that? I going to say about that? I going to say about that? >> No, no, no. Uh just why is it important >> No, no, no. Uh just why is it important >> No, no, no. Uh just why is it important to study sex? to study sex? to study sex? >> Oh, yeah, why is it important? Yeah, so >> Oh, yeah, why is it important? Yeah, so >> Oh, yeah, why is it important? Yeah, so that is that points to another reason. that is that points to another reason. that is that points to another reason. So, one big reason why it's important is So, one big reason why it's important is So, one big reason why it's important is just the fact that it's fun uh just the fact that it's fun uh just the fact that it's fun uh fascinating. fascinating. fascinating. Um but I think also that like you say, Um but I think also that like you say, Um but I think also that like you say, it is important in terms of steering it is important in terms of steering it is important in terms of steering society in an positive directions. society in an positive directions. society in an positive directions. And uh underst- understanding ourselves, And uh underst- understanding ourselves, And uh underst- understanding ourselves, uh understanding interactions between uh understanding interactions between uh understanding interactions between men and women. Um in terms of yeah, men and women. Um in terms of yeah, men and women. Um in terms of yeah, trying to keep people in their place and trying to keep people in their place and trying to keep people in their place and the like. That's certainly not the the like. That's certainly not the the like. That's certainly not the philosophy that I come away with um from philosophy that I come away with um from philosophy that I come away with um from having studied all this over the years. having studied all this over the years. having studied all this over the years. Um I instead of it, my basic philosophy, Um I instead of it, my basic philosophy, Um I instead of it, my basic philosophy, I think I can summarize in just four I think I can summarize in just four I think I can summarize in just four words. And those words would be, let words. And those words would be, let words. And those words would be, let people be themselves. people be themselves. people be themselves. Uh so, if they if they fit with Uh so, if they if they fit with Uh so, if they if they fit with traditional traditional traditional uh gender roles and expectations, that's uh gender roles and expectations, that's uh gender roles and expectations, that's great. Uh but if they don't, that's great. Uh but if they don't, that's great. Uh but if they don't, that's great as well. It doesn't matter. The great as well. It doesn't matter. The great as well. It doesn't matter. The fact that something has evolutionary fact that something has evolutionary fact that something has evolutionary origin doesn't necessarily mean that origin doesn't necessarily mean that origin doesn't necessarily mean that it's good. it's good. it's good. Uh it doesn't necessarily mean that it's Uh it doesn't necessarily mean that it's Uh it doesn't necessarily mean that it's bad, either. I think that it's it's bad, either. I think that it's it's bad, either. I think that it's it's morally neutral and that it's up to us morally neutral and that it's up to us morally neutral and that it's up to us to decide whether it's good or bad or to decide whether it's good or bad or to decide whether it's good or bad or somewhere in between. somewhere in between. somewhere in between. >> I think that's a big fear that people >> I think that's a big fear that people >> I think that's a big fear that people have that by looking at the evolutionary have that by looking at the evolutionary have that by looking at the evolutionary explanation for why certain traits show explanation for why certain traits show explanation for why certain traits show up the way that they do, why certain up the way that they do, why certain up the way that they do, why certain differences occur the way that they do, differences occur the way that they do, differences occur the way that they do, it sounds like you're excusing away that it sounds like you're excusing away that it sounds like you're excusing away that behavior. behavior. behavior. >> Indeed. >> Indeed. >> Indeed. Like a lot of people do worry that Like a lot of people do worry that Like a lot of people do worry that that's the case and that people will that's the case and that people will that's the case and that people will assume that it's the case. assume that it's the case. assume that it's the case. >> It's a naturalistic fallacy in your way >> It's a naturalistic fallacy in your way >> It's a naturalistic fallacy in your way through all of the bad behavior of men through all of the bad behavior of men through all of the bad behavior of men or all of the worst behavior of women or or all of the worst behavior of women or or all of the worst behavior of women or all of the most repressive ideas that we all of the most repressive ideas that we all of the most repressive ideas that we have for how people should behave. have for how people should behave. have for how people should behave. >> Yeah, yeah. And I don't think that it >> Yeah, yeah. And I don't think that it >> Yeah, yeah. And I don't think that it does justify any particular behavior. Um does justify any particular behavior. Um does justify any particular behavior. Um but I do think it's but I do think it's but I do think it's right to worry that people might assume right to worry that people might assume right to worry that people might assume that it does, falsely assume that it that it does, falsely assume that it that it does, falsely assume that it does. does. does. So, I do think when we discuss these So, I do think when we discuss these So, I do think when we discuss these issues, issues, issues, uh that we should take into account the uh that we should take into account the uh that we should take into account the concerns that people have about this concerns that people have about this concerns that people have about this whole topic of sex differences. And we whole topic of sex differences. And we whole topic of sex differences. And we should discuss them carefully. And we should discuss them carefully. And we should discuss them carefully. And we should always emphasize that most of the should always emphasize that most of the should always emphasize that most of the gaps are not huge. Most of the gaps are not huge. Most of the gaps are not huge. Most of the psychological sex differences are not psychological sex differences are not psychological sex differences are not huge. Um that there's a huge amount of huge. Um that there's a huge amount of huge. Um that there's a huge amount of variation within both sexes, tons of variation within both sexes, tons of variation within both sexes, tons of overlap between the sexes. overlap between the sexes. overlap between the sexes. And also that there's no And also that there's no And also that there's no um um um normative implications or normative implications or normative implications or disimplications. So, no um disimplications. So, no um disimplications. So, no um sense of sense of sense of because something is evolved, because because something is evolved, because because something is evolved, because something is natural, that that something is natural, that that something is natural, that that therefore means that it's good therefore means that it's good therefore means that it's good or even permissible. Again, it's up up or even permissible. Again, it's up up or even permissible. Again, it's up up to us to decide that. to us to decide that. to us to decide that. >> Right to say that the the differences >> Right to say that the the differences >> Right to say that the the differences are modest at best, but when you start are modest at best, but when you start are modest at best, but when you start to stack them on top of each other, you to stack them on top of each other, you to stack them on top of each other, you end up with huge You basically end up end up with huge You basically end up end up with huge You basically end up with two completely separate Venn with two completely separate Venn with two completely separate Venn diagrams, right? It's not just diagrams, right? It's not just diagrams, right? It's not just preference for violence and risk-taking preference for violence and risk-taking preference for violence and risk-taking and parental investment and da da da da. and parental investment and da da da da. and parental investment and da da da da. It's when you put all of them together, It's when you put all of them together, It's when you put all of them together, you do have two very different groups of you do have two very different groups of you do have two very different groups of people. people. people. >> Yeah, those are called multivariate sex >> Yeah, those are called multivariate sex >> Yeah, those are called multivariate sex differences when you sort of cluster differences when you sort of cluster differences when you sort of cluster the differences together. the differences together. the differences together. Um I think that Um I think that Um I think that while that's statistically true, I think while that's statistically true, I think while that's statistically true, I think we have need to be a little bit wary we have need to be a little bit wary we have need to be a little bit wary about the concept of multivariate about the concept of multivariate about the concept of multivariate statistic multivariate um statistic multivariate um statistic multivariate um sex differences just because sex differences just because sex differences just because often we are thinking about single often we are thinking about single often we are thinking about single traits. So, often we're thinking about traits. So, often we're thinking about traits. So, often we're thinking about sex differences in parenting, sex sex differences in parenting, sex sex differences in parenting, sex differences in sexual interests and differences in sexual interests and differences in sexual interests and aggression, risk-taking, uh and and so aggression, risk-taking, uh and and so aggression, risk-taking, uh and and so on. Um on. Um on. Um but also if you were to but also if you were to but also if you were to divide up take take a group of people, divide up take take a group of people, divide up take take a group of people, divide them into two based on a flip of divide them into two based on a flip of divide them into two based on a flip of a coin. a coin. a coin. Um they're not going to be identical on Um they're not going to be identical on Um they're not going to be identical on every trait. There's going to be small every trait. There's going to be small every trait. There's going to be small differences between them. But then if differences between them. But then if differences between them. But then if you add up all those traits, you could you add up all those traits, you could you add up all those traits, you could just as well stack up the differences just as well stack up the differences just as well stack up the differences between these two randomly chosen groups between these two randomly chosen groups between these two randomly chosen groups of people, stack up the differences, and of people, stack up the differences, and of people, stack up the differences, and you'd find that they equally uh you'd find that they equally uh you'd find that they equally uh massively discrepant from each other massively discrepant from each other massively discrepant from each other based on the multivariate statistical based on the multivariate statistical based on the multivariate statistical approach. approach. approach. So, um So, um So, um so, I think we you to be wary about so, I think we you to be wary about so, I think we you to be wary about exaggerating the magnitude of human sex exaggerating the magnitude of human sex exaggerating the magnitude of human sex differences based on that statistical differences based on that statistical differences based on that statistical approach. Cuz you could just as well approach. Cuz you could just as well approach. Cuz you could just as well exaggerate the sex differences between exaggerate the sex differences between exaggerate the sex differences between New Zealanders and New Zealanders and New Zealanders and New Zealanders and New Zealanders and New Zealanders and Australians or and the British and the Australians or and the British and the Australians or and the British and the French or or like I say two randomly French or or like I say two randomly French or or like I say two randomly >> British and the French do that enough >> British and the French do that enough >> British and the French do that enough already. All right, there's been a last already. All right, there's been a last already. All right, there's been a last few years there's been a huge debate few years there's been a huge debate few years there's been a huge debate about what sex actually is. about what sex actually is. about what sex actually is. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> What's the definition that you land on? >> What's the definition that you land on? >> What's the definition that you land on? >> Uh well, there are a few definitions. >> Uh well, there are a few definitions. >> Uh well, there are a few definitions. The one that I land on is the The one that I land on is the The one that I land on is the traditional scientific definition uh via traditional scientific definition uh via traditional scientific definition uh via which sex is defined in terms of gamete which sex is defined in terms of gamete which sex is defined in terms of gamete size. size. size. So, in the vast majority of sexually So, in the vast majority of sexually So, in the vast majority of sexually reproducing species, reproducing species, reproducing species, uh you have two different gamete sizes uh you have two different gamete sizes uh you have two different gamete sizes and the small gametes are called sperm, and the small gametes are called sperm, and the small gametes are called sperm, the larger gametes are called eggs. the larger gametes are called eggs. the larger gametes are called eggs. >> Is that across the board? >> Is that across the board? >> Is that across the board? >> That is across the board. >> That is across the board. >> That is across the board. >> No way. Like so, every every >> No way. Like so, every every >> No way. Like so, every every almost every sexually reproducing male almost every sexually reproducing male almost every sexually reproducing male >> Yes, produces sperm and sexually >> Yes, produces sperm and sexually >> Yes, produces sperm and sexually reproducing female produces eggs. reproducing female produces eggs. reproducing female produces eggs. >> Right. >> Right. >> Right. >> And and >> And and >> And and >> might this might be like the most >> might this might be like the most >> might this might be like the most facepalm thing in my life. Wow, I didn't facepalm thing in my life. Wow, I didn't facepalm thing in my life. Wow, I didn't know that that was those are the only know that that was those are the only know that that was those are the only two currencies at play. two currencies at play. two currencies at play. >> [snorts] >> [snorts] >> [snorts] >> Um I mean, it seems like so so in >> Um I mean, it seems like so so in >> Um I mean, it seems like so so in biology, it's not like math, right? So, biology, it's not like math, right? So, biology, it's not like math, right? So, in biology, there are very rarely uh in biology, there are very rarely uh in biology, there are very rarely uh generalizations that apply to every generalizations that apply to every generalizations that apply to every single species. single species. single species. >> Mhm. >> Mhm. >> Mhm. >> Um this is one of them, but the reason >> Um this is one of them, but the reason >> Um this is one of them, but the reason is that it's a definitional it's a is that it's a definitional it's a is that it's a definitional it's a definitional truth. So, we define males definitional truth. So, we define males definitional truth. So, we define males as the ones that produce the smaller as the ones that produce the smaller as the ones that produce the smaller gametes. Um the gametes. Um the gametes. Um the empirical truth that in principle could empirical truth that in principle could empirical truth that in principle could have gone another way is the fact that have gone another way is the fact that have gone another way is the fact that in the vast majority of species, you in the vast majority of species, you in the vast majority of species, you have where the gametes are not have where the gametes are not have where the gametes are not identical, you only have two different identical, you only have two different identical, you only have two different types. types. types. And one is bigger and one is smaller. And one is bigger and one is smaller. And one is bigger and one is smaller. And that's true right across uh you And that's true right across uh you And that's true right across uh you know, all species except the minority know, all species except the minority know, all species except the minority where you uh you have where you uh you have where you uh you have So, that's called anisogamy where you So, that's called anisogamy where you So, that's called anisogamy where you have two different sizes and you have a have two different sizes and you have a have two different sizes and you have a few isogamous sexually reproducing few isogamous sexually reproducing few isogamous sexually reproducing species, but the vast majority species, but the vast majority species, but the vast majority anisogamous. anisogamous. anisogamous. >> Can you >> Can you >> Can you what is what's an isogamous what is what's an isogamous what is what's an isogamous sexually reproducing species What are sexually reproducing species What are sexually reproducing species What are some examples of them? some examples of them? some examples of them? >> Uh there are some very uh I think no >> Uh there are some very uh I think no >> Uh there are some very uh I think no animals and no plants, but I think maybe animals and no plants, but I think maybe animals and no plants, but I think maybe some simple bacteria and things like some simple bacteria and things like some simple bacteria and things like that. And I think that would that would that. And I think that would that would that. And I think that would that would have been the starting position. So, we have been the starting position. So, we have been the starting position. So, we all evolved from species that originally all evolved from species that originally all evolved from species that originally were isogamous. were isogamous. were isogamous. >> Mhm. >> Mhm. >> Mhm. >> They They first of all sexual >> They They first of all sexual >> They They first of all sexual reproduction would have evolved, then reproduction would have evolved, then reproduction would have evolved, then isoga- and they would have been isoga- and they would have been isoga- and they would have been isogamous. They would have produced the isogamous. They would have produced the isogamous. They would have produced the same gametes and mixed them. But then same gametes and mixed them. But then same gametes and mixed them. But then that's evolutionarily unstable and that that's evolutionarily unstable and that that's evolutionarily unstable and that tends to fall apart into uh smaller and tends to fall apart into uh smaller and tends to fall apart into uh smaller and larger gametes. larger gametes. larger gametes. >> Why Why is it unstable? >> Why Why is it unstable? >> Why Why is it unstable? >> Uh because when you when you have >> Uh because when you when you have >> Uh because when you when you have same-size gametes, same-size gametes, same-size gametes, uh uh uh the selection for any trait that will the selection for any trait that will the selection for any trait that will increase the chances of being one of the increase the chances of being one of the increase the chances of being one of the gamete I I producing gametes that are gamete I I producing gametes that are gamete I I producing gametes that are going to uh produce offspring that going to uh produce offspring that going to uh produce offspring that survive. So, that creates a selection survive. So, that creates a selection survive. So, that creates a selection pressure for maybe loading up your pressure for maybe loading up your pressure for maybe loading up your gametes with some extra uh supplies to gametes with some extra uh supplies to gametes with some extra uh supplies to help them survive. help them survive. help them survive. >> Mhm. >> Mhm. >> Mhm. >> Um so so some gametes uh get a little >> Um so so some gametes uh get a little >> Um so so some gametes uh get a little bit bigger bit bigger bit bigger because of that. But as soon as they get because of that. But as soon as they get because of that. But as soon as they get big enough, the larger gametes, you have big enough, the larger gametes, you have big enough, the larger gametes, you have a selection for smaller gametes that a selection for smaller gametes that a selection for smaller gametes that seek out the larger gametes and kind of seek out the larger gametes and kind of seek out the larger gametes and kind of ride on their coattails. ride on their coattails. ride on their coattails. >> Mhm. >> Mhm. >> Mhm. >> And uh so and you get this it pushes >> And uh so and you get this it pushes >> And uh so and you get this it pushes them apart. And them apart. And them apart. And >> uh from a >> uh from a >> uh from a sexual survival or a gamete survival sexual survival or a gamete survival sexual survival or a gamete survival perspective, perspective, perspective, >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> it's the gray area in the middle of the >> it's the gray area in the middle of the >> it's the gray area in the middle of the barbell is where you go to die and the barbell is where you go to die and the barbell is where you go to die and the black and the white on either end are black and the white on either end are black and the white on either end are actually the ones that are most actually the ones that are most actually the ones that are most effective. effective. effective. >> Exactly right. Cuz the ones in the >> Exactly right. Cuz the ones in the >> Exactly right. Cuz the ones in the middle, they're not big enough, they middle, they're not big enough, they middle, they're not big enough, they don't survive as well as the bigger don't survive as well as the bigger don't survive as well as the bigger ones, they pack a picnic for their ones, they pack a picnic for their ones, they pack a picnic for their offspring. offspring. offspring. >> Mhm. >> Mhm. >> Mhm. >> Um but they're also >> Um but they're also >> Um but they're also >> in their >> in their >> in their motility mobility by the the smaller motility mobility by the the smaller motility mobility by the the smaller ones. ones. ones. >> Exactly. And and just numbers, you know, >> Exactly. And and just numbers, you know, >> Exactly. And and just numbers, you know, so like if you are producing small so like if you are producing small so like if you are producing small gametes, you can produce many more. So, gametes, you can produce many more. So, gametes, you can produce many more. So, individuals that produce the medium-size individuals that produce the medium-size individuals that produce the medium-size gametes, they don't survive as well, gametes, they don't survive as well, gametes, they don't survive as well, plus they don't produce as many. plus they don't produce as many. plus they don't produce as many. >> remember what the stat is. There's some >> remember what the stat is. There's some >> remember what the stat is. There's some stat around. Jerry, can you look at stat around. Jerry, can you look at stat around. Jerry, can you look at ChatGPT, um how many sperm are produced ChatGPT, um how many sperm are produced ChatGPT, um how many sperm are produced per day, human sperm versus human eggs? per day, human sperm versus human eggs? per day, human sperm versus human eggs? It's a It's such a hilariously big It's a It's such a hilariously big It's a It's such a hilariously big difference. Yeah. Um Okay, so broadly difference. Yeah. Um Okay, so broadly difference. Yeah. Um Okay, so broadly across the animal kingdom, in almost across the animal kingdom, in almost across the animal kingdom, in almost every single every single every single sexually reproducing species, sexually reproducing species, sexually reproducing species, there's a binary. there's a binary. there's a binary. >> Yeah, there's a sex binary. >> Yeah, there's a sex binary. >> Yeah, there's a sex binary. >> There's a sex binary, yeah. There's also >> There's a sex binary, yeah. There's also >> There's a sex binary, yeah. There's also a ton of variation in terms of the a ton of variation in terms of the a ton of variation in terms of the phenotypic characteristics phenotypic characteristics phenotypic characteristics within each of those sexes. within each of those sexes. within each of those sexes. But yeah, there is there is a sex But yeah, there is there is a sex But yeah, there is there is a sex binary. You know, you and you do get binary. You know, you and you do get binary. You know, you and you do get intersex individuals. intersex individuals. intersex individuals. >> Yeah, what about the challenges to this? >> Yeah, what about the challenges to this? >> Yeah, what about the challenges to this? We we have We we have We we have hermaphrodites, within-sex variation, hermaphrodites, within-sex variation, hermaphrodites, within-sex variation, intersex conditions. Does that disprove intersex conditions. Does that disprove intersex conditions. Does that disprove this? this? this? >> Uh it doesn't. Um so the I guess the >> Uh it doesn't. Um so the I guess the >> Uh it doesn't. Um so the I guess the easiest one is the within-sex variation. easiest one is the within-sex variation. easiest one is the within-sex variation. There is tons of it. So there's There is tons of it. So there's There is tons of it. So there's variation in terms of levels of variation in terms of levels of variation in terms of levels of masculinity, levels of femininity, masculinity, levels of femininity, masculinity, levels of femininity, um just uh size dimorphism versus size um just uh size dimorphism versus size um just uh size dimorphism versus size monomorphism, where they're they're monomorphism, where they're they're monomorphism, where they're they're about the same size. Um about the same size. Um about the same size. Um but nonetheless, they are all either but nonetheless, they are all either but nonetheless, they are all either producing sperm or eggs. producing sperm or eggs. producing sperm or eggs. >> Yep. >> Yep. >> Yep. >> The vast majority within each within >> The vast majority within each within >> The vast majority within each within each group. each group. each group. >> You've seen that uh >> You've seen that uh >> You've seen that uh image, right, of the bell curve graph, image, right, of the bell curve graph, image, right, of the bell curve graph, and you say, "On average, something and you say, "On average, something and you say, "On average, something something." And then somebody says, something." And then somebody says, something." And then somebody says, "Well, I know a person who is actually "Well, I know a person who is actually "Well, I know a person who is actually more that than the other group. I know a more that than the other group. I know a more that than the other group. I know a a woman who's a woman who's a woman who's 6 ft 7." And and and she's actually 6 ft 7." And and and she's actually 6 ft 7." And and and she's actually taller than most men. Most men on taller than most men. Most men on taller than most men. Most men on average are taller than women. Well, my average are taller than women. Well, my average are taller than women. Well, my friend's 6 ft 2. You go, "Right, okay, friend's 6 ft 2. You go, "Right, okay, friend's 6 ft 2. You go, "Right, okay, but that doesn't necessarily disprove but that doesn't necessarily disprove but that doesn't necessarily disprove the way that the way that the way that >> yeah. >> yeah. >> yeah. >> Exactly. The gen- The fact that the >> Exactly. The gen- The fact that the >> Exactly. The gen- The fact that the generalization's there. And even more generalization's there. And even more generalization's there. And even more so, the fact that the gamete size is so, the fact that the gamete size is so, the fact that the gamete size is definitional, as you say. Oh, here we definitional, as you say. Oh, here we definitional, as you say. Oh, here we go. I don't even know what that number go. I don't even know what that number go. I don't even know what that number is. Is that sperm Is that a billion is. Is that sperm Is that a billion is. Is that sperm Is that a billion sperm? sperm? sperm? >> 100 to 300 million sperm per day >> 100 to 300 million sperm per day >> 100 to 300 million sperm per day produced by healthy adult male. produced by healthy adult male. produced by healthy adult male. >> no, no, no, no. I want this globally. >> no, no, no, no. I want this globally. >> no, no, no, no. I want this globally. Total global sperm production, 200 Total global sperm production, 200 Total global sperm production, 200 quadrillion. Eggs released, 70 million. quadrillion. Eggs released, 70 million. quadrillion. Eggs released, 70 million. Step it up, ladies. Step it up, ladies. Step it up, ladies. >> So. >> So. >> So. >> So, I think [ __ ] lagging behind. We >> So, I think [ __ ] lagging behind. We >> So, I think [ __ ] lagging behind. We need to up the egg production, so I say. need to up the egg production, so I say. need to up the egg production, so I say. So much of the so debate falls around So much of the so debate falls around So much of the so debate falls around nature versus nurture. nature versus nurture. nature versus nurture. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> So much of it. >> So much of it. >> So much of it. How do you even begin to start to How do you even begin to start to How do you even begin to start to separate this out, right? No almost no separate this out, right? No almost no separate this out, right? No almost no women have grown up in a society that women have grown up in a society that women have grown up in a society that hasn't had other women with the hasn't had other women with the hasn't had other women with the expectations of women and almost no men expectations of women and almost no men expectations of women and almost no men have grown up in society that doesn't have grown up in society that doesn't have grown up in society that doesn't have the expectations of men. How do we have the expectations of men. How do we have the expectations of men. How do we know that all of the sex differences know that all of the sex differences know that all of the sex differences aren't just socialization? aren't just socialization? aren't just socialization? >> It's a good question and um I think the >> It's a good question and um I think the >> It's a good question and um I think the first thing I want to say about that is first thing I want to say about that is first thing I want to say about that is that evolutionary psychologists don't that evolutionary psychologists don't that evolutionary psychologists don't deny that socialization has a very deny that socialization has a very deny that socialization has a very important uh impact on the nature of sex important uh impact on the nature of sex important uh impact on the nature of sex differences in any given culture. differences in any given culture. differences in any given culture. We know that it does have a big impact We know that it does have a big impact We know that it does have a big impact cuz we know that sex differences, their cuz we know that sex differences, their cuz we know that sex differences, their size, and the exact details of them, size, and the exact details of them, size, and the exact details of them, many of them, vary across cultures and many of them, vary across cultures and many of them, vary across cultures and vary across times. Um but in terms of vary across times. Um but in terms of vary across times. Um but in terms of how we know that it's not just how we know that it's not just how we know that it's not just socialization, there are various lines socialization, there are various lines socialization, there are various lines of evidence that point in that of evidence that point in that of evidence that point in that direction. None of them are perfect, direction. None of them are perfect, direction. None of them are perfect, none of them by themselves seal the none of them by themselves seal the none of them by themselves seal the deal. deal. deal. But the reason I'm persuaded is that But the reason I'm persuaded is that But the reason I'm persuaded is that they all point in they all point in they all point in uh when you get a sex difference and uh when you get a sex difference and uh when you get a sex difference and they all point in the same direction, they all point in the same direction, they all point in the same direction, um that just makes a very strong case, I um that just makes a very strong case, I um that just makes a very strong case, I think, that that is not just due to think, that that is not just due to think, that that is not just due to socialization. And in the book I I lay socialization. And in the book I I lay socialization. And in the book I I lay out six different lines of evidence uh out six different lines of evidence uh out six different lines of evidence uh for an innate contribution to any given for an innate contribution to any given for an innate contribution to any given uh difference. Um see if I can remember uh difference. Um see if I can remember uh difference. Um see if I can remember the name. So, the first one is um the name. So, the first one is um the name. So, the first one is um that a lot of sex differences they that a lot of sex differences they that a lot of sex differences they appear very very early in the lifespan. appear very very early in the lifespan. appear very very early in the lifespan. Uh so early in fact that even though Uh so early in fact that even though Uh so early in fact that even though it's conceivable that it could be a it's conceivable that it could be a it's conceivable that it could be a result of socialization, it just seems result of socialization, it just seems result of socialization, it just seems less plausible than that there's less plausible than that there's less plausible than that there's actually also an innate push. So, uh the actually also an innate push. So, uh the actually also an innate push. So, uh the aggression sex difference and the aggression sex difference and the aggression sex difference and the risk-taking sex difference, both of risk-taking sex difference, both of risk-taking sex difference, both of those appear basically as soon as kids those appear basically as soon as kids those appear basically as soon as kids are mature enough that they can move are mature enough that they can move are mature enough that they can move around the place and are capable of around the place and are capable of around the place and are capable of risk-taking, capable of aggressing. Uh risk-taking, capable of aggressing. Uh risk-taking, capable of aggressing. Uh you get that sex difference um you get that sex difference um you get that sex difference um like immediately. And and like immediately. And and like immediately. And and [clears throat] [clears throat] [clears throat] good example of that is that uh good example of that is that uh good example of that is that uh right from the get-go, right from early right from the get-go, right from early right from the get-go, right from early childhood, more boys than girls end up childhood, more boys than girls end up childhood, more boys than girls end up in the ER from doing more risk-taking. in the ER from doing more risk-taking. in the ER from doing more risk-taking. >> Mhm. >> Mhm. >> Mhm. >> Uh and and also if it appears at puberty >> Uh and and also if it appears at puberty >> Uh and and also if it appears at puberty as well, um, like a lot of sex as well, um, like a lot of sex as well, um, like a lot of sex differences innate sex differences with differences innate sex differences with differences innate sex differences with an innate basis, they an innate basis, they an innate basis, they >> What do you mean when you say innate? >> What do you mean when you say innate? >> What do you mean when you say innate? >> Uh, unlearned. >> Uh, unlearned. >> Uh, unlearned. >> Right. >> Right. >> Right. >> Unlearned, yeah. >> Unlearned, yeah. >> Unlearned, yeah. >> Right. Right. >> Right. Right. >> Right. Right. >> So there's an innate contribution, an >> So there's an innate contribution, an >> So there's an innate contribution, an unlearned contribution, and where that's unlearned contribution, and where that's unlearned contribution, and where that's the case, often you find that the sex the case, often you find that the sex the case, often you find that the sex difference, difference, difference, um, you may you may get it to some um, you may you may get it to some um, you may you may get it to some degree early in the lifespan, but then degree early in the lifespan, but then degree early in the lifespan, but then post puberty, it just skyrockets and and post puberty, it just skyrockets and and post puberty, it just skyrockets and and expands. expands. expands. >> Right. Okay. Which would suggest that >> Right. Okay. Which would suggest that >> Right. Okay. Which would suggest that there is a biological basis, or else there is a biological basis, or else there is a biological basis, or else >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> why would this big change occur when >> why would this big change occur when >> why would this big change occur when puberty happens? puberty happens? puberty happens? >> Exactly. And and do so right across >> Exactly. And and do so right across >> Exactly. And and do so right across cultures. cultures. cultures. >> Yeah. Is it a Would the suggestion from >> Yeah. Is it a Would the suggestion from >> Yeah. Is it a Would the suggestion from social roles, socialization theorists be social roles, socialization theorists be social roles, socialization theorists be that well, during puberty, that well, during puberty, that well, during puberty, culture ramps up its pressure on people? culture ramps up its pressure on people? culture ramps up its pressure on people? There's greater expectation on young men There's greater expectation on young men There's greater expectation on young men and women to change their behavior? and women to change their behavior? and women to change their behavior? >> That would be the way that you would >> That would be the way that you would >> That would be the way that you would have to you'd have to try to explain it, have to you'd have to try to explain it, have to you'd have to try to explain it, uh, something like that, yeah. uh, something like that, yeah. uh, something like that, yeah. >> Uh, [clears throat] I think they're more >> Uh, [clears throat] I think they're more >> Uh, [clears throat] I think they're more malleable. They're more they're more uh malleable. They're more they're more uh malleable. They're more they're more uh >> Yeah, more plastic at that age, perhaps. >> Yeah, more plastic at that age, perhaps. >> Yeah, more plastic at that age, perhaps. Yeah. You could you could do that as Yeah. You could you could do that as Yeah. You could you could do that as well. Um, and that's sort of implying an well. Um, and that's sort of implying an well. Um, and that's sort of implying an innate, uh, innate, uh, innate, uh, contribution to the plasticity, I guess. contribution to the plasticity, I guess. contribution to the plasticity, I guess. But yeah, not to the specific sex But yeah, not to the specific sex But yeah, not to the specific sex difference. difference. difference. Uh, the reason I don't buy that, though, Uh, the reason I don't buy that, though, Uh, the reason I don't buy that, though, is that most cultures actually try to is that most cultures actually try to is that most cultures actually try to suppress male aggression, for instance. suppress male aggression, for instance. suppress male aggression, for instance. Uh, in every culture, male aggression, Uh, in every culture, male aggression, Uh, in every culture, male aggression, uh, post puberty, young male aggression, uh, post puberty, young male aggression, uh, post puberty, young male aggression, violence, risk-taking, homicide, uh, is violence, risk-taking, homicide, uh, is violence, risk-taking, homicide, uh, is a big problem that the society has to, a big problem that the society has to, a big problem that the society has to, uh, deal with. And so, uh, usually they uh, deal with. And so, uh, usually they uh, deal with. And so, uh, usually they they try to try to clamp down on it, they try to try to clamp down on it, they try to try to clamp down on it, rather than trying to, uh, rather than trying to, uh, rather than trying to, uh, encourage it. And nonetheless, you get, encourage it. And nonetheless, you get, encourage it. And nonetheless, you get, uh, this uh, increase in aggression. uh, this uh, increase in aggression. uh, this uh, increase in aggression. That's true. And actually, this is the That's true. And actually, this is the That's true. And actually, this is the second line of evidence. Is that often second line of evidence. Is that often second line of evidence. Is that often these sex differences appear despite these sex differences appear despite these sex differences appear despite culture, rather than just because of culture, rather than just because of culture, rather than just because of culture. culture. culture. >> Mhm. >> Mhm. >> Mhm. >> Culture's trying to push down aggression >> Culture's trying to push down aggression >> Culture's trying to push down aggression like right from early on. Uh, parents, like right from early on. Uh, parents, like right from early on. Uh, parents, teachers early on, they they actually teachers early on, they they actually teachers early on, they they actually tell off boys for aggression more than tell off boys for aggression more than tell off boys for aggression more than they tell off girls for aggression. Not they tell off girls for aggression. Not they tell off girls for aggression. Not cuz they disap- disapprove of girls' cuz they disap- disapprove of girls' cuz they disap- disapprove of girls' aggression, but just simply because boys aggression, but just simply because boys aggression, but just simply because boys are more aggressive. are more aggressive. are more aggressive. >> Right. >> Right. >> Right. >> So, they have more cause more cause to >> So, they have more cause more cause to >> So, they have more cause more cause to do it. do it. do it. >> Mhm. I think >> Mhm. I think >> Mhm. I think fMRIs of developing fetuses in the womb fMRIs of developing fetuses in the womb fMRIs of developing fetuses in the womb can detect sex differences at 3 months. can detect sex differences at 3 months. can detect sex differences at 3 months. >> They can I think I think even younger in >> They can I think I think even younger in >> They can I think I think even younger in some cases as well. some cases as well. some cases as well. >> Yeah. What are they are these >> Yeah. What are they are these >> Yeah. What are they are these boys and girls, these tiny un- minus boys and girls, these tiny un- minus boys and girls, these tiny un- minus 6-month-year-olds, 6-month-year-olds, 6-month-year-olds, are they are they are they learning learning learning that their brains are supposed to that their brains are supposed to that their brains are supposed to develop differently? develop differently? develop differently? >> Yeah, they've been socialized to develop >> Yeah, they've been socialized to develop >> Yeah, they've been socialized to develop different brains inside of the womb. different brains inside of the womb. different brains inside of the womb. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. >> Okay, so early development. >> Okay, so early development. >> Okay, so early development. >> Early development um >> Early development um >> Early development um appearing despite culture rather than appearing despite culture rather than appearing despite culture rather than because of culture. because of culture. because of culture. >> Yep. >> Yep. >> Yep. >> Uh another one is that um >> Uh another one is that um >> Uh another one is that um they persist often for a long time. So, they persist often for a long time. So, they persist often for a long time. So, for instance, uh sex differences in mate for instance, uh sex differences in mate for instance, uh sex differences in mate preferences were really consistent right preferences were really consistent right preferences were really consistent right throughout the entirety of the uh 20th throughout the entirety of the uh 20th throughout the entirety of the uh 20th century and the in the US. century and the in the US. century and the in the US. >> Mhm. >> Mhm. >> Mhm. >> Uh sex differences in career preferences >> Uh sex differences in career preferences >> Uh sex differences in career preferences as well or or career-related interests. as well or or career-related interests. as well or or career-related interests. >> Mhm. >> Mhm. >> Mhm. >> Uh they were evident from >> Uh they were evident from >> Uh they were evident from like the early 1900s when people first like the early 1900s when people first like the early 1900s when people first started measuring them. started measuring them. started measuring them. And then they just stayed the same. So, And then they just stayed the same. So, And then they just stayed the same. So, so the average difference, the fact that so the average difference, the fact that so the average difference, the fact that men for instance on average more men for instance on average more men for instance on average more interested in things and things-related interested in things and things-related interested in things and things-related jobs, whereas women on average are more jobs, whereas women on average are more jobs, whereas women on average are more interested in people and people-related interested in people and people-related interested in people and people-related jobs. That was that was the case right jobs. That was that was the case right jobs. That was that was the case right throughout the 20th century uh despite throughout the 20th century uh despite throughout the 20th century uh despite the fact that there was quite a strong the fact that there was quite a strong the fact that there was quite a strong uh uh uh social there was a lot of social social there was a lot of social social there was a lot of social pressure to try to get more women into pressure to try to get more women into pressure to try to get more women into uh traditionally male roles and it uh traditionally male roles and it uh traditionally male roles and it persisted nonetheless. persisted nonetheless. persisted nonetheless. >> Mhm. Okay. I've learned from over a >> Mhm. Okay. I've learned from over a >> Mhm. Okay. 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Right now, you can get a free AG1 welcome kit now, you can get a free AG1 welcome kit now, you can get a free AG1 welcome kit that includes a bottle of D3K2 and AG1 that includes a bottle of D3K2 and AG1 that includes a bottle of D3K2 and AG1 flavor sampler and that 90-day flavor sampler and that 90-day flavor sampler and that 90-day money-back guarantee by going to the money-back guarantee by going to the money-back guarantee by going to the link in the description below or heading link in the description below or heading link in the description below or heading to drinkAG1.com/modernwisdom. What are the sociocultural explanations What are the sociocultural explanations that hold water? that hold water? that hold water? Um well, I think a lot of them do. Um well, I think a lot of them do. Um well, I think a lot of them do. Um Um Um you know, it's it's tricky. So, I guess you know, it's it's tricky. So, I guess you know, it's it's tricky. So, I guess we know because of cross-cultural we know because of cross-cultural we know because of cross-cultural differences and differences and differences and male-typical behavior, female-typical male-typical behavior, female-typical male-typical behavior, female-typical behavior, and the size of the behavior, and the size of the behavior, and the size of the differences, there's something that's differences, there's something that's differences, there's something that's making the difference. But, it is making the difference. But, it is making the difference. But, it is actually quite tricky to actually quite tricky to actually quite tricky to to figure out what what it is that's to figure out what what it is that's to figure out what what it is that's making the difference. making the difference. making the difference. Um cuz we know, for instance, that Um cuz we know, for instance, that Um cuz we know, for instance, that I guess like a popular explanation is I guess like a popular explanation is I guess like a popular explanation is that it's how parents treat their kids. that it's how parents treat their kids. that it's how parents treat their kids. And that seems incredibly plausible that And that seems incredibly plausible that And that seems incredibly plausible that it's going to have an effect. There are it's going to have an effect. There are it's going to have an effect. There are a few reasons to think maybe that it has a few reasons to think maybe that it has a few reasons to think maybe that it has less effect than we might think. So, one less effect than we might think. So, one less effect than we might think. So, one is that a lot of research in the West is that a lot of research in the West is that a lot of research in the West finds that men finds that finds that men finds that finds that men finds that parents don't particularly treat their parents don't particularly treat their parents don't particularly treat their sons and daughters differently in some sons and daughters differently in some sons and daughters differently in some important ways. But, they're equally important ways. But, they're equally important ways. But, they're equally likely to encourage them to be likely to encourage them to be likely to encourage them to be successful, equally likely to successful, equally likely to successful, equally likely to encourage them to be independent. encourage them to be independent. encourage them to be independent. Uh and another line of evidence against Uh and another line of evidence against Uh and another line of evidence against parents having a big role is what's parents having a big role is what's parents having a big role is what's called the second law of behavioral called the second law of behavioral called the second law of behavioral genetics. genetics. genetics. Uh and that's the finding that Uh and that's the finding that Uh and that's the finding that um when two people, I guess like I say, um when two people, I guess like I say, um when two people, I guess like I say, take identical twins. Two identical take identical twins. Two identical take identical twins. Two identical twins that grow up in the same home, twins that grow up in the same home, twins that grow up in the same home, you'd expect them to be more similar to you'd expect them to be more similar to you'd expect them to be more similar to each other than two identical twins who each other than two identical twins who each other than two identical twins who are separated at birth and reared apart. are separated at birth and reared apart. are separated at birth and reared apart. And in childhood, they often are And in childhood, they often are And in childhood, they often are quite a bit more similar than you would quite a bit more similar than you would quite a bit more similar than you would expect by chance. Um by adulthood expect by chance. Um by adulthood expect by chance. Um by adulthood though, they're often not much more though, they're often not much more though, they're often not much more similar at all, and in some cases not no similar at all, and in some cases not no similar at all, and in some cases not no more similar than they would be more similar than they would be more similar than they would be um if they had grown up apart, which is um if they had grown up apart, which is um if they had grown up apart, which is a surprising finding, but a very a surprising finding, but a very a surprising finding, but a very consistent finding. And it suggests consistent finding. And it suggests consistent finding. And it suggests maybe that um parental maybe that um parental maybe that um parental treatment treatment treatment affects individuals less than we might affects individuals less than we might affects individuals less than we might think that they would. This kind of think that they would. This kind of think that they would. This kind of pulls out the rug a little bit from the pulls out the rug a little bit from the pulls out the rug a little bit from the idea that parents are having a huge idea that parents are having a huge idea that parents are having a huge impact on sex differences specifically. impact on sex differences specifically. impact on sex differences specifically. >> What about the gender equality paradox? >> What about the gender equality paradox? >> What about the gender equality paradox? >> Uh well, that uh undermines another kind >> Uh well, that uh undermines another kind >> Uh well, that uh undermines another kind of uh social cultural explanation, which of uh social cultural explanation, which of uh social cultural explanation, which is the idea that um is the idea that um is the idea that um the sex differences that we see are the sex differences that we see are the sex differences that we see are products of the social roles of a products of the social roles of a products of the social roles of a culture. culture. culture. And shaped by And shaped by And shaped by >> Is that social roles theory? >> Is that social roles theory? >> Is that social roles theory? >> Yeah, social roles theory, exactly. Um >> Yeah, social roles theory, exactly. Um >> Yeah, social roles theory, exactly. Um and patriarchy theory, the idea that and patriarchy theory, the idea that and patriarchy theory, the idea that it's due to patriarchy, um it's due to patriarchy, um it's due to patriarchy, um uh uh uh that as well is undermined by the gender that as well is undermined by the gender that as well is undermined by the gender equality paradox. equality paradox. equality paradox. Um cuz both of those theories would Um cuz both of those theories would Um cuz both of those theories would predict that in like like more predict that in like like more predict that in like like more patriarchal societies patriarchal societies patriarchal societies societies that are more patriarchal, uh societies that are more patriarchal, uh societies that are more patriarchal, uh societies that have stricter gender societies that have stricter gender societies that have stricter gender roles roles roles >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> you'd expect that it predict that the >> you'd expect that it predict that the >> you'd expect that it predict that the sex differences would be bigger in those sex differences would be bigger in those sex differences would be bigger in those societies societies societies uh than they are in less patriarchal uh than they are in less patriarchal uh than they are in less patriarchal societies, and ones that have less societies, and ones that have less societies, and ones that have less strict social roles. strict social roles. strict social roles. >> What would be some examples of how that >> What would be some examples of how that >> What would be some examples of how that would play out if that was true? would play out if that was true? would play out if that was true? >> Uh >> Uh >> Uh basically any sex difference you care to basically any sex difference you care to basically any sex difference you care to name, uh aggression sex difference, sex name, uh aggression sex difference, sex name, uh aggression sex difference, sex differences in masculinity versus differences in masculinity versus differences in masculinity versus femininity, all of those should be femininity, all of those should be femininity, all of those should be bigger. Sex differences in bigger. Sex differences in bigger. Sex differences in career-related preferences, they should career-related preferences, they should career-related preferences, they should be bigger as well. be bigger as well. be bigger as well. And the gender equality paradox is the And the gender equality paradox is the And the gender equality paradox is the deeply counterintuitive finding, an deeply counterintuitive finding, an deeply counterintuitive finding, an incredibly fascinating finding, that incredibly fascinating finding, that incredibly fascinating finding, that often it goes the other way. Seems to go often it goes the other way. Seems to go often it goes the other way. Seems to go the other way, that actually in more the other way, that actually in more the other way, that actually in more gender equal societies, societies that gender equal societies, societies that gender equal societies, societies that are less strict in terms of the gender are less strict in terms of the gender are less strict in terms of the gender roles, roles, roles, uh and societies that are less uh and societies that are less uh and societies that are less patriarchal, you actually find larger patriarchal, you actually find larger patriarchal, you actually find larger sex differences often rather than sex differences often rather than sex differences often rather than smaller ones. smaller ones. smaller ones. Uh Uh Uh which is which is which is >> in the direction that you would predict >> in the direction that you would predict >> in the direction that you would predict as well. as well. as well. >> Uh, yeah. So, so opposite to the >> Uh, yeah. So, so opposite to the >> Uh, yeah. So, so opposite to the direction you predict if social role direction you predict if social role direction you predict if social role theory was correct. theory was correct. theory was correct. >> But, in the direction you would predict >> But, in the direction you would predict >> But, in the direction you would predict if you were taking an evolutionary if you were taking an evolutionary if you were taking an evolutionary perspective, I would imagine. perspective, I would imagine. perspective, I would imagine. >> Um, well, actually, you know, taking an >> Um, well, actually, you know, taking an >> Um, well, actually, you know, taking an evolutionary perspective, I I didn't evolutionary perspective, I I didn't evolutionary perspective, I I didn't originally predict that. I I thought originally predict that. I I thought originally predict that. I I thought that in more patriarchal societies, e- that in more patriarchal societies, e- that in more patriarchal societies, e- even given that there's an innate push even given that there's an innate push even given that there's an innate push towards certain sex differences, I still towards certain sex differences, I still towards certain sex differences, I still thought that patriarchy and stricter sex thought that patriarchy and stricter sex thought that patriarchy and stricter sex roles would pry the sexes apart even roles would pry the sexes apart even roles would pry the sexes apart even more. more. more. >> Right. >> Right. >> Right. >> So, I was actually very surprised that >> So, I was actually very surprised that >> So, I was actually very surprised that it doesn't and that it does the reverse it doesn't and that it does the reverse it doesn't and that it does the reverse is the real surprise. is the real surprise. is the real surprise. >> What are the rebuttals to socio- that >> What are the rebuttals to socio- that >> What are the rebuttals to socio- that socio-cultural socio-cultural socio-cultural explainers have for the gender equality explainers have for the gender equality explainers have for the gender equality paradox? paradox? paradox? >> Uh, there are a few. One is that, um, >> Uh, there are a few. One is that, um, >> Uh, there are a few. One is that, um, people in more patriarchal societies, people in more patriarchal societies, people in more patriarchal societies, they tend to the the men and women have they tend to the the men and women have they tend to the the men and women have little to do with each other. little to do with each other. little to do with each other. >> Right. >> Right. >> Right. >> And so, that they have a more sort of >> And so, that they have a more sort of >> And so, that they have a more sort of exaggerated picture of, exaggerated picture of, exaggerated picture of, uh, the other sex. And so, when they uh, the other sex. And so, when they uh, the other sex. And so, when they fill out personality inventories, for fill out personality inventories, for fill out personality inventories, for instance, they they're comparing instance, they they're comparing instance, they they're comparing themselves with with other men if themselves with with other men if themselves with with other men if they're men or other women if they're they're men or other women if they're they're men or other women if they're women. And they therefore see themselves women. And they therefore see themselves women. And they therefore see themselves as being more similar to the as being more similar to the as being more similar to the average average average for their comparison group. But, their for their comparison group. But, their for their comparison group. But, their comparison group is just their sex. comparison group is just their sex. comparison group is just their sex. >> they're just in they're so siloed off in >> they're just in they're so siloed off in >> they're just in they're so siloed off in these patriarchal societies that they these patriarchal societies that they these patriarchal societies that they don't know what the [ __ ] the other don't know what the [ __ ] the other don't know what the [ __ ] the other side's doing. side's doing. side's doing. >> Exactly. >> Exactly. >> Exactly. It is. [laughter] It is. It is. [laughter] It is. It is. [laughter] It is. >> You're just in a bunker so much that you >> You're just in a bunker so much that you >> You're just in a bunker so much that you don't know what's going on. don't know what's going on. don't know what's going on. >> Exactly. >> Exactly. >> Exactly. >> It makes sense. It does. >> It makes sense. It does. >> It makes sense. It does. >> It does, but, um, there's also a >> It does, but, um, there's also a >> It does, but, um, there's also a plausible rebuttal to that rebuttal, plausible rebuttal to that rebuttal, plausible rebuttal to that rebuttal, >> [laughter] >> [laughter] >> [laughter] >> uh, which is that, um, >> uh, which is that, um, >> uh, which is that, um, >> It's [ __ ] love it. So good. This is >> It's [ __ ] love it. So good. This is >> It's [ __ ] love it. So good. This is my [ __ ] This is my [ __ ] [laughter] >> Uh, so, it doesn't just apply to >> Uh, so, it doesn't just apply to self-report things like personality. You self-report things like personality. You self-report things like personality. You also find it for, uh, some cognitive also find it for, uh, some cognitive also find it for, uh, some cognitive abilities. I think spatial ability, for abilities. I think spatial ability, for abilities. I think spatial ability, for instance, you find it. instance, you find it. instance, you find it. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Um, you find it as well for physical >> Um, you find it as well for physical >> Um, you find it as well for physical traits like height. traits like height. traits like height. >> Are you saying that in more gender equal >> Are you saying that in more gender equal >> Are you saying that in more gender equal societies boys get even better better at societies boys get even better better at societies boys get even better better at throwing. throwing. throwing. >> Um I don't know if that is actually the >> Um I don't know if that is actually the >> Um I don't know if that is actually the case, but that that would be an example case, but that that would be an example case, but that that would be an example if there's research on that. I'm not if there's research on that. I'm not if there's research on that. I'm not sure there is actually cross-cultural sure there is actually cross-cultural sure there is actually cross-cultural research on that. research on that. research on that. >> Throwing's my favorite one, dude. >> Throwing's my favorite one, dude. >> Throwing's my favorite one, dude. >> It's huge huge difference. >> It's huge huge difference. >> It's huge huge difference. >> my It's one of my absolute favorite. Did >> my It's one of my absolute favorite. Did >> my It's one of my absolute favorite. Did you ever look at that study where um so you ever look at that study where um so you ever look at that study where um so the the the difference in throwing uh the the the difference in throwing uh the the the difference in throwing uh velocity, accuracy is a pretty big sex velocity, accuracy is a pretty big sex velocity, accuracy is a pretty big sex difference. But one of the um difference. But one of the um difference. But one of the um appropriate pushbacks was, well, uh appropriate pushbacks was, well, uh appropriate pushbacks was, well, uh men's shoulders articulate differently, men's shoulders articulate differently, men's shoulders articulate differently, uh the length of the forearm means that uh the length of the forearm means that uh the length of the forearm means that you've got more leverage, etc. etc. I you've got more leverage, etc. etc. I you've got more leverage, etc. etc. I think the the sex difference at 8 think the the sex difference at 8 think the the sex difference at 8 [clears throat] years old in throwing [clears throat] years old in throwing [clears throat] years old in throwing velocity and accuracy is basically the velocity and accuracy is basically the velocity and accuracy is basically the same as adult men and women being able same as adult men and women being able same as adult men and women being able to detect adult women and men just by to detect adult women and men just by to detect adult women and men just by their face. their face. their face. >> Right. >> Right. >> Right. >> It's a 90% It's a huge huge huge >> It's a 90% It's a huge huge huge >> It's a 90% It's a huge huge huge difference. So, there was this My difference. So, there was this My difference. So, there was this My favorite study on this was uh in order favorite study on this was uh in order favorite study on this was uh in order to negate the articulation argument, the to negate the articulation argument, the to negate the articulation argument, the issues of sort of biomechanics, uh they issues of sort of biomechanics, uh they issues of sort of biomechanics, uh they got a tennis ball serving machine and got a tennis ball serving machine and got a tennis ball serving machine and fired tennis balls at students. fired tennis balls at students. fired tennis balls at students. >> Yep. >> Yep. >> Yep. >> And got the boys and the girls to see if >> And got the boys and the girls to see if >> And got the boys and the girls to see if they could get out of the way. And I they could get out of the way. And I they could get out of the way. And I don't think any of the males were hit. don't think any of the males were hit. don't think any of the males were hit. And I think that I This is before you And I think that I This is before you And I think that I This is before you wouldn't have been able to get this past wouldn't have been able to get this past wouldn't have been able to get this past an ethics board. Um but yeah, just the an ethics board. Um but yeah, just the an ethics board. Um but yeah, just the sort of spatial uh awareness, that sort of spatial uh awareness, that sort of spatial uh awareness, that spatial rotationy stuff is um spatial rotationy stuff is um spatial rotationy stuff is um the sex difference is is is pretty the sex difference is is is pretty the sex difference is is is pretty large. And apparently Maybe maybe in a large. And apparently Maybe maybe in a large. And apparently Maybe maybe in a more gender-equal society, even more more gender-equal society, even more more gender-equal society, even more would be women would be hit by the would be women would be hit by the would be women would be hit by the tennis balls. tennis balls. tennis balls. >> Well, that's possible, yeah. Um so, the >> Well, that's possible, yeah. Um so, the >> Well, that's possible, yeah. Um so, the gender equality paradox, it doesn't gender equality paradox, it doesn't gender equality paradox, it doesn't apply to every trait. So, it might not apply to every trait. So, it might not apply to every trait. So, it might not necessarily be that. But um yeah. But necessarily be that. But um yeah. But necessarily be that. But um yeah. But but you are right. I think that was but you are right. I think that was but you are right. I think that was probably a 70 I think it was a 70s probably a 70 I think it was a 70s probably a 70 I think it was a 70s study. I'm not sure you could do that. study. I'm not sure you could do that. study. I'm not sure you could do that. Yeah, in fact, you couldn't do that. You Yeah, in fact, you couldn't do that. You Yeah, in fact, you couldn't do that. You couldn't aim projectiles at uh couldn't aim projectiles at uh couldn't aim projectiles at uh participants in studies anymore, sadly. participants in studies anymore, sadly. participants in studies anymore, sadly. >> What's the largest sex difference >> What's the largest sex difference >> What's the largest sex difference between men and women? between men and women? between men and women? >> Um well, the largest ones are physical >> Um well, the largest ones are physical >> Um well, the largest ones are physical differences. differences. differences. Physical sex differences. So, um the Physical sex differences. So, um the Physical sex differences. So, um the very largest uh sex differences in very largest uh sex differences in very largest uh sex differences in reproductive anatomy, where basically reproductive anatomy, where basically reproductive anatomy, where basically all males have penises, all females have all males have penises, all females have all males have penises, all females have vaginas, and so on. vaginas, and so on. vaginas, and so on. Um Um Um but other physical sex differences um but other physical sex differences um but other physical sex differences um are also very very large. So, the sex are also very very large. So, the sex are also very very large. So, the sex difference in upper body strength is is difference in upper body strength is is difference in upper body strength is is huge, and there's very little overlap, huge, and there's very little overlap, huge, and there's very little overlap, close to no overlap close to no overlap close to no overlap uh for that one. uh for that one. uh for that one. Um the sex difference in voice pitch is Um the sex difference in voice pitch is Um the sex difference in voice pitch is another very very large one as well. another very very large one as well. another very very large one as well. That's huge, uh which is quite That's huge, uh which is quite That's huge, uh which is quite interesting because uh interesting because uh interesting because uh the voice pitch sex difference other the voice pitch sex difference other the voice pitch sex difference other apes apes apes isn't isn't as big. It's nowhere near as isn't isn't as big. It's nowhere near as isn't isn't as big. It's nowhere near as big. And that's even the case for um big. And that's even the case for um big. And that's even the case for um for other species that are much more for other species that are much more for other species that are much more dimorphic than us in terms of the size, dimorphic than us in terms of the size, dimorphic than us in terms of the size, like gorillas and and orangutans. like gorillas and and orangutans. like gorillas and and orangutans. So, that's a bit of a puzzle, not quite So, that's a bit of a puzzle, not quite So, that's a bit of a puzzle, not quite sure why that is, why that's the case. sure why that is, why that's the case. sure why that is, why that's the case. Uh when it comes to psychological sex Uh when it comes to psychological sex Uh when it comes to psychological sex differences, the vast majority of them differences, the vast majority of them differences, the vast majority of them are much more modest, are much more modest, are much more modest, um but there's one that stands out as um but there's one that stands out as um but there's one that stands out as being as being almost as big as some of being as being almost as big as some of being as being almost as big as some of these physical ones. these physical ones. these physical ones. I always ask people if they can guess I always ask people if they can guess I always ask people if they can guess what it is. I think last time I was on what it is. I think last time I was on what it is. I think last time I was on your show I asked you if you could your show I asked you if you could your show I asked you if you could guess, and and you didn't, but then no guess, and and you didn't, but then no guess, and and you didn't, but then no one does. one does. one does. >> I've read the book now. >> I've read the book now. >> I've read the book now. >> You've read the book now, so >> You've read the book now, so >> You've read the book now, so >> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. >> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. >> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. >> So, you've got a head start on that. >> So, you've got a head start on that. >> So, you've got a head start on that. >> what it would be, Jared? The the single >> what it would be, Jared? The the single >> what it would be, Jared? The the single biggest psych psychological sex biggest psych psychological sex biggest psych psychological sex difference between men and women? difference between men and women? difference between men and women? >> Hm. >> Hm. >> Hm. Is it aggression? Is it aggression? Is it aggression? Um Um Um >> It's not aggression. I'll give you a >> It's not aggression. I'll give you a >> It's not aggression. I'll give you a clue, and that's that it is clue, and that's that it is clue, and that's that it is it's related to reproduction pretty it's related to reproduction pretty it's related to reproduction pretty closely. closely. closely. What was that? What was that? What was that? >> Diversion. >> Diversion. >> Diversion. >> It's Well, actually, that is a big sex >> It's Well, actually, that is a big sex >> It's Well, actually, that is a big sex difference, but difference, but difference, but >> Not as Not as big as this one. You speak >> Not as Not as big as this one. You speak >> Not as Not as big as this one. You speak to yourself. to yourself. to yourself. >> Speak for yourself, dude. >> Speak for yourself, dude. >> Speak for yourself, dude. >> [laughter] >> [laughter] >> [laughter] >> It's the sex difference in >> It's the sex difference in >> It's the sex difference in which sex each sex is primarily which sex each sex is primarily which sex each sex is primarily attracted to. So, men most the vast attracted to. So, men most the vast attracted to. So, men most the vast majority of men are primarily attracted majority of men are primarily attracted majority of men are primarily attracted to women, the vast majority of women to women, the vast majority of women to women, the vast majority of women primarily attracted to men. And when I primarily attracted to men. And when I primarily attracted to men. And when I say it, it's obvious right it's so say it, it's obvious right it's so say it, it's obvious right it's so obvious that it's a big sex difference, obvious that it's a big sex difference, obvious that it's a big sex difference, and um and um and um but but it's curious, people don't think but but it's curious, people don't think but but it's curious, people don't think of it. Even um scientists often don't of it. Even um scientists often don't of it. Even um scientists often don't think about it. I've read a bunch of think about it. I've read a bunch of think about it. I've read a bunch of papers that summarize evolved sex papers that summarize evolved sex papers that summarize evolved sex differences, and they don't tend to differences, and they don't tend to differences, and they don't tend to mention that one. They often neglect to mention that one. They often neglect to mention that one. They often neglect to mention that mention that mention that that very very large one, but also that that very very large one, but also that that very very large one, but also that one that has quite a clear evolutionary one that has quite a clear evolutionary one that has quite a clear evolutionary rationale. That's very interesting. rationale. That's very interesting. rationale. That's very interesting. >> because if that wasn't the case, we >> because if that wasn't the case, we >> because if that wasn't the case, we wouldn't be here. wouldn't be here. wouldn't be here. >> Exactly. >> Exactly. >> Exactly. >> Literally. >> Literally. >> Literally. >> We literally wouldn't be here. Yeah. >> We literally wouldn't be here. Yeah. >> We literally wouldn't be here. Yeah. >> Uh okay, so what are the biggest sex >> Uh okay, so what are the biggest sex >> Uh okay, so what are the biggest sex differences? Let's get down to some differences? Let's get down to some differences? Let's get down to some brass [ __ ] tacks. What are the brass [ __ ] tacks. What are the brass [ __ ] tacks. What are the biggest sex differences when it comes to biggest sex differences when it comes to biggest sex differences when it comes to sex? sex? sex? >> When it comes to sex, >> When it comes to sex, >> When it comes to sex, >> Yes. >> Yes. >> Yes. >> one of the largest ones is the sex >> one of the largest ones is the sex >> one of the largest ones is the sex difference in interest in casual sex and difference in interest in casual sex and difference in interest in casual sex and sexual variety. And sexual variety. And sexual variety. And so basically so sociosexuality, the so basically so sociosexuality, the so basically so sociosexuality, the trait of sociosexuality. No strings trait of sociosexuality. No strings trait of sociosexuality. No strings attached sex. attached sex. attached sex. Do I need to mention which direction it Do I need to mention which direction it Do I need to mention which direction it is? is? is? >> Uh >> Uh >> Uh yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Someone can intro it I guess. Someone can intro it I guess. Someone can intro it I guess. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. So so men on average So so men on average So so men on average uh score higher. uh score higher. uh score higher. However you measure that trait, they However you measure that trait, they However you measure that trait, they score higher than women on that trait. score higher than women on that trait. score higher than women on that trait. The difference is there maybe though are The difference is there maybe though are The difference is there maybe though are not not as huge as people sometimes not not as huge as people sometimes not not as huge as people sometimes assume. assume. assume. Um we're looking usually at an effect Um we're looking usually at an effect Um we're looking usually at an effect size of size of size of uh you know, about uh you know, about uh you know, about Cohen's d equals one. So what what that Cohen's d equals one. So what what that Cohen's d equals one. So what what that means is there's about one standard means is there's about one standard means is there's about one standard deviation between the average for men deviation between the average for men deviation between the average for men and the average for women. and the average for women. and the average for women. Uh so so yeah, between eight and one. Uh so so yeah, between eight and one. Uh so so yeah, between eight and one. And that is pretty big. That that is big And that is pretty big. That that is big And that is pretty big. That that is big for a human sex difference. for a human sex difference. for a human sex difference. But there is still quite a bit of But there is still quite a bit of But there is still quite a bit of overlap. So there are plenty of women overlap. So there are plenty of women overlap. So there are plenty of women who have a higher sociosexuality than who have a higher sociosexuality than who have a higher sociosexuality than plenty of men. plenty of men. plenty of men. I guess an intuitive way to put it, a I guess an intuitive way to put it, a I guess an intuitive way to put it, a way to make it intuitive, would be to to way to make it intuitive, would be to to way to make it intuitive, would be to to say to imagine plucking two people at say to imagine plucking two people at say to imagine plucking two people at random, one man and one woman. random, one man and one woman. random, one man and one woman. With effect size of With effect size of With effect size of or or one, probably two-thirds to 70% of or or one, probably two-thirds to 70% of or or one, probably two-thirds to 70% of the time the man will score higher than the time the man will score higher than the time the man will score higher than the woman on that trait. the woman on that trait. the woman on that trait. Um so that is a majority. It's not an Um so that is a majority. It's not an Um so that is a majority. It's not an overwhelming majority though. In a overwhelming majority though. In a overwhelming majority though. In a significant minority of cases, you'd significant minority of cases, you'd significant minority of cases, you'd find that actually the woman scores find that actually the woman scores find that actually the woman scores higher than the man. higher than the man. higher than the man. >> Mhm. >> Mhm. >> Mhm. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Why? >> Why? >> Why? >> Why is that sex difference? That is >> Why is that sex difference? That is >> Why is that sex difference? That is getting right into this the central getting right into this the central getting right into this the central question of why there are any sex question of why there are any sex question of why there are any sex differences at all. differences at all. differences at all. >> we we we probably need to talk about >> we we we probably need to talk about >> we we we probably need to talk about like the evolution of sex differences, like the evolution of sex differences, like the evolution of sex differences, why they why they exist in the first why they why they exist in the first why they why they exist in the first place. place. place. >> Yeah, um so we should jump to that. >> Yeah, um so we should jump to that. >> Yeah, um so we should jump to that. Uh Uh Uh Can I just as an aside though, can I we Can I just as an aside though, can I we Can I just as an aside though, can I we we mentioned three of the six lines of we mentioned three of the six lines of we mentioned three of the six lines of evidence for innateness. Do we want to evidence for innateness. Do we want to evidence for innateness. Do we want to jump back and do the other three and jump back and do the other three and jump back and do the other three and then maybe get into the sort of thing. then maybe get into the sort of thing. then maybe get into the sort of thing. Um Um Um So, what are we what are we So, what are we what are we So, what are we what are we So, we had the developmental sex So, we had the developmental sex So, we had the developmental sex differences, we had the resistance to differences, we had the resistance to differences, we had the resistance to cultural pressure, we had the um cultural pressure, we had the um cultural pressure, we had the um persistence across time. So, another one persistence across time. So, another one persistence across time. So, another one is uh hormonal correlates of sex is uh hormonal correlates of sex is uh hormonal correlates of sex differences. differences. differences. And in particular, um you find And in particular, um you find And in particular, um you find associations between prenatal hormonal associations between prenatal hormonal associations between prenatal hormonal exposure and traits found later in life. exposure and traits found later in life. exposure and traits found later in life. Uh so, higher levels of testosterone in Uh so, higher levels of testosterone in Uh so, higher levels of testosterone in the womb for instance are associated the womb for instance are associated the womb for instance are associated with higher levels of aggression later, with higher levels of aggression later, with higher levels of aggression later, higher levels of risk-taking, higher levels of risk-taking, higher levels of risk-taking, lower levels of parental inclinations. lower levels of parental inclinations. lower levels of parental inclinations. >> Mhm. >> Mhm. >> Mhm. >> Uh and so on. So, a lot of >> Uh and so on. So, a lot of >> Uh and so on. So, a lot of >> regardless of sex. >> regardless of sex. >> regardless of sex. >> That is regardless of sex, yes. So, you >> That is regardless of sex, yes. So, you >> That is regardless of sex, yes. So, you can look at within sex differences as can look at within sex differences as can look at within sex differences as well. well. well. >> Mhm. >> Mhm. >> Mhm. >> And uh yes, so one actually very strong >> And uh yes, so one actually very strong >> And uh yes, so one actually very strong line of evidence for that claim is the line of evidence for that claim is the line of evidence for that claim is the fact that uh women who who when they're fact that uh women who who when they're fact that uh women who who when they're in the womb are exposed to very very in the womb are exposed to very very in the womb are exposed to very very high levels of prenatal uh testosterone high levels of prenatal uh testosterone high levels of prenatal uh testosterone uh due to having a condition called uh due to having a condition called uh due to having a condition called congenital adrenal hyperplasia or CAH. congenital adrenal hyperplasia or CAH. congenital adrenal hyperplasia or CAH. Uh they Uh they Uh they as girls and then as women, they they as girls and then as women, they they as girls and then as women, they they exhibit a lot of uh male-typical exhibit a lot of uh male-typical exhibit a lot of uh male-typical traits. traits. traits. Uh for instance, Uh for instance, Uh for instance, >> in playing with dolls. >> in playing with dolls. >> in playing with dolls. >> Exactly, yeah. Less interest in uh >> Exactly, yeah. Less interest in uh >> Exactly, yeah. Less interest in uh getting married and having kids, uh more getting married and having kids, uh more getting married and having kids, uh more interest in things-related professions interest in things-related professions interest in things-related professions as well. as well. as well. >> [clears throat] >> [clears throat] >> [clears throat] >> So, that's pretty interesting. >> So, that's pretty interesting. >> So, that's pretty interesting. >> them more likely to be bisexual or >> them more likely to be bisexual or >> them more likely to be bisexual or lesbian? lesbian? lesbian? >> Yeah, yeah, it does. It makes them more >> Yeah, yeah, it does. It makes them more >> Yeah, yeah, it does. It makes them more likely to be interested in in other likely to be interested in in other likely to be interested in in other women sexually as well, either as women sexually as well, either as women sexually as well, either as bisexuals or as lesbians, yeah. bisexuals or as lesbians, yeah. bisexuals or as lesbians, yeah. >> Wow. >> Wow. >> Wow. >> So, so like a wide range of traits seem >> So, so like a wide range of traits seem >> So, so like a wide range of traits seem to be influenced by testosterone. to be influenced by testosterone. to be influenced by testosterone. >> is is correlates with hormones? >> is is correlates with hormones? >> is is correlates with hormones? >> Yep. Uh the fifth one is uh >> Yep. Uh the fifth one is uh >> Yep. Uh the fifth one is uh cross-cultural universality. cross-cultural universality. cross-cultural universality. So, most of the key sex differences that So, most of the key sex differences that So, most of the key sex differences that we've been discussing so far, they are we've been discussing so far, they are we've been discussing so far, they are found either in every culture found either in every culture found either in every culture or in the vast majority. And if it were or in the vast majority. And if it were or in the vast majority. And if it were all just down to culture, all just down to culture, all just down to culture, you wouldn't expect that. You'd expect you wouldn't expect that. You'd expect you wouldn't expect that. You'd expect there to be more variation across there to be more variation across there to be more variation across cultures than what we found. Um but you cultures than what we found. Um but you cultures than what we found. Um but you don't you know you just always have like don't you know you just always have like don't you know you just always have like in every culture, you find that men are in every culture, you find that men are in every culture, you find that men are more aggressive than women, and you find more aggressive than women, and you find more aggressive than women, and you find uh at the extreme of aggression in uh at the extreme of aggression in uh at the extreme of aggression in particular, the differences are particular, the differences are particular, the differences are particularly big. And you find that the particularly big. And you find that the particularly big. And you find that the vast majority of homicides are vast majority of homicides are vast majority of homicides are perpetrated by by guys in every single perpetrated by by guys in every single perpetrated by by guys in every single nation for which we had data. nation for which we had data. nation for which we had data. Greater risk-taking, more accidental uh Greater risk-taking, more accidental uh Greater risk-taking, more accidental uh fatalities among men than women. fatalities among men than women. fatalities among men than women. Uh women across cultures are more Uh women across cultures are more Uh women across cultures are more involved in parental care, and so on and involved in parental care, and so on and involved in parental care, and so on and so on. so on. so on. And then last but not least, and maybe And then last but not least, and maybe And then last but not least, and maybe this is the one I find most plausible on this is the one I find most plausible on this is the one I find most plausible on its own, is the fact that a lot of these its own, is the fact that a lot of these its own, is the fact that a lot of these sex differences, you find them as well sex differences, you find them as well sex differences, you find them as well in in other species. in in other species. in in other species. You don't find them in all other You don't find them in all other You don't find them in all other species, but importantly you find them species, but importantly you find them species, but importantly you find them in species um in species um in species um that were subject to the same that were subject to the same that were subject to the same evolutionary selection pressures as as evolutionary selection pressures as as evolutionary selection pressures as as ourselves. ourselves. ourselves. Uh and actually the selection pressures Uh and actually the selection pressures Uh and actually the selection pressures in question uh bring us to the ultimate in question uh bring us to the ultimate in question uh bring us to the ultimate roots of evolved sex differences. roots of evolved sex differences. roots of evolved sex differences. Uh so, basically Uh so, basically Uh so, basically most sex differences emerge from the sex most sex differences emerge from the sex most sex differences emerge from the sex difference in in what I like to call the difference in in what I like to call the difference in in what I like to call the maximum offspring number, maximum offspring number, maximum offspring number, the male animals versus female animals the male animals versus female animals the male animals versus female animals can produce. And in most species, uh the can produce. And in most species, uh the can produce. And in most species, uh the males potentially can produce more males potentially can produce more males potentially can produce more offspring than females. offspring than females. offspring than females. Um that that average number of offspring Um that that average number of offspring Um that that average number of offspring has to be the same. At least in species has to be the same. At least in species has to be the same. At least in species where you have similar sex ratio, the where you have similar sex ratio, the where you have similar sex ratio, the average has to be the same, but the average has to be the same, but the average has to be the same, but the variance in the number of offspring variance in the number of offspring variance in the number of offspring produced can be greater in one sex than produced can be greater in one sex than produced can be greater in one sex than the other, and it's usually greater in the other, and it's usually greater in the other, and it's usually greater in males. males. males. >> Why does the average need to be the same >> Why does the average need to be the same >> Why does the average need to be the same if the variance can be different? if the variance can be different? if the variance can be different? >> Uh because it takes two to tango. >> Uh because it takes two to tango. >> Uh because it takes two to tango. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> And so every >> And so every >> And so every uh uh uh offspring that's produced is produced by offspring that's produced is produced by offspring that's produced is produced by one male one female. one male one female. one male one female. And in most species it can be And in most species it can be And in most species it can be >> have one male >> have one male >> have one male servicing 20 females, why not have a 20 servicing 20 females, why not have a 20 servicing 20 females, why not have a 20 to one ratio? to one ratio? to one ratio? >> Well, that'll be a 20 to one ratio in >> Well, that'll be a 20 to one ratio in >> Well, that'll be a 20 to one ratio in terms of the number of parents. terms of the number of parents. terms of the number of parents. But the [snorts] average number for each But the [snorts] average number for each But the [snorts] average number for each sex will be the same. sex will be the same. sex will be the same. >> Right. >> Right. >> Right. >> Because you got the one male with 20 >> Because you got the one male with 20 >> Because you got the one male with 20 times more times more times more >> Mhm. >> Mhm. >> Mhm. >> uh than any female. >> uh than any female. >> uh than any female. >> Mhm. >> Mhm. >> Mhm. >> And then 19 and so that's already a high >> And then 19 and so that's already a high >> And then 19 and so that's already a high number. But then the other 19 bachelors number. But then the other 19 bachelors number. But then the other 19 bachelors who never get to have kids, uh that who never get to have kids, uh that who never get to have kids, uh that brings the average for males down. brings the average for males down. brings the average for males down. And then it's the same for all the And then it's the same for all the And then it's the same for all the females. So you average out across all females. So you average out across all females. So you average out across all of them and and the average is the same. of them and and the average is the same. of them and and the average is the same. >> I I get that. >> I I get that. >> I I get that. >> Sure. >> Sure. >> Sure. >> Maybe I'm being stupid. Why is it not >> Maybe I'm being stupid. Why is it not >> Maybe I'm being stupid. Why is it not the case given that men given that males the case given that men given that males the case given that men given that males are able to produce more children than are able to produce more children than are able to produce more children than women can women can women can and females can, and females can, and females can, >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> why is it not the case that there is a >> why is it not the case that there is a >> why is it not the case that there is a bias toward fewer males in the animal bias toward fewer males in the animal bias toward fewer males in the animal kingdom? kingdom? kingdom? >> Right. Right. That's a great question. >> Right. Right. That's a great question. >> Right. Right. That's a great question. Um and that is one of the sort of early Um and that is one of the sort of early Um and that is one of the sort of early mysteries mysteries mysteries of evolutionary biology. of evolutionary biology. of evolutionary biology. And if it were for the if selection And if it were for the if selection And if it were for the if selection acted for the good of the group, that is acted for the good of the group, that is acted for the good of the group, that is what we'd find. what we'd find. what we'd find. We'd find if if you only need one one We'd find if if you only need one one We'd find if if you only need one one male for every 20 females and male for every 20 females and male for every 20 females and selection were were for the good of the selection were were for the good of the selection were were for the good of the group, you get that because group, you get that because group, you get that because if you have 20 of each, if you have 20 of each, if you have 20 of each, >> Mhm. >> Mhm. >> Mhm. >> then the other 19 are surplus and >> then the other 19 are surplus and >> then the other 19 are surplus and they're using up these resources and they're using up these resources and they're using up these resources and they can uh competing with each other they can uh competing with each other they can uh competing with each other and fighting with each other. It's not and fighting with each other. It's not and fighting with each other. It's not good for the species as a whole. Uh but good for the species as a whole. Uh but good for the species as a whole. Uh but selection favors what's good for the selection favors what's good for the selection favors what's good for the individual. And for the individual, individual. And for the individual, individual. And for the individual, >> I could be the one. >> I could be the one. >> I could be the one. >> You could be the one, exactly. And and >> You could be the one, exactly. And and >> You could be the one, exactly. And and the average is the same. So the the the average is the same. So the the the average is the same. So the the Um it's I guess it's useful to think Um it's I guess it's useful to think Um it's I guess it's useful to think about about about Think about it from the parents' point Think about it from the parents' point Think about it from the parents' point of view. Like is it better to have to of view. Like is it better to have to of view. Like is it better to have to have sons or daughters? have sons or daughters? have sons or daughters? Um and if there were Um and if there were Um and if there were 20 females for for one male, 20 females for for one male, 20 females for for one male, it'd be much better to have sons it'd be much better to have sons it'd be much better to have sons because each son is going to just have because each son is going to just have because each son is going to just have There's going to be tons of females. And There's going to be tons of females. And There's going to be tons of females. And so that would mean that selection would so that would mean that selection would so that would mean that selection would slowly favor an increase in the number slowly favor an increase in the number slowly favor an increase in the number of sons. of sons. of sons. >> well, the [ __ ] you can't beat >> well, the [ __ ] you can't beat >> well, the [ __ ] you can't beat evolution. evolution. evolution. >> Exactly. And the reverse, if there's 20 >> Exactly. And the reverse, if there's 20 >> Exactly. And the reverse, if there's 20 20 males and on for every female, then 20 males and on for every female, then 20 males and on for every female, then it would be better for parents to it would be better for parents to it would be better for parents to produce daughters because then they get produce daughters because then they get produce daughters because then they get to pick the cream of the crop and and 20 to pick the cream of the crop and and 20 to pick the cream of the crop and and 20 males probably they're going to have a males probably they're going to have a males probably they're going to have a low number, so it's better to have low number, so it's better to have low number, so it's better to have daughters. So daughters. So daughters. So the equilibrium point is 50/50. the equilibrium point is 50/50. the equilibrium point is 50/50. >> Yeah, obviously as well, there's >> Yeah, obviously as well, there's >> Yeah, obviously as well, there's survival and not just reproduction. survival and not just reproduction. survival and not just reproduction. We're not living in this perfect We're not living in this perfect We're not living in this perfect hermetically sealed safe environment. hermetically sealed safe environment. hermetically sealed safe environment. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Males do other things than just >> Males do other things than just >> Males do other things than just reproduce regardless of whether they can reproduce regardless of whether they can reproduce regardless of whether they can do 20 to 1 or not. do 20 to 1 or not. do 20 to 1 or not. >> And they >> And they >> And they Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. >> Getting food, helping to protect, >> Getting food, helping to protect, >> Getting food, helping to protect, getting rid of other tribes, etc., etc. getting rid of other tribes, etc., etc. getting rid of other tribes, etc., etc. >> Yeah. Yeah, exactly. And you know, there >> Yeah. Yeah, exactly. And you know, there >> Yeah. Yeah, exactly. And you know, there are plenty of species where the male uh are plenty of species where the male uh are plenty of species where the male uh his his role his his role his his role in reproduction is just the reproductive in reproduction is just the reproductive in reproduction is just the reproductive act and then he then he's off looking act and then he then he's off looking act and then he then he's off looking for other females, but we're not one of for other females, but we're not one of for other females, but we're not one of those species. those species. those species. I mean, that does happen occasionally. I mean, that does happen occasionally. I mean, that does happen occasionally. There's occasional male that would do There's occasional male that would do There's occasional male that would do that. Uh but generally we're quite that. Uh but generally we're quite that. Uh but generally we're quite involved in child care. involved in child care. involved in child care. Uh yeah, so okay, so Uh yeah, so okay, so Uh yeah, so okay, so the big difference there is you you get the big difference there is you you get the big difference there is you you get this difference in the variance. this difference in the variance. this difference in the variance. >> Mhm. >> Mhm. >> Mhm. >> Um some males can have tons of >> Um some males can have tons of >> Um some males can have tons of offspring. offspring. offspring. Uh and they can have many more offspring Uh and they can have many more offspring Uh and they can have many more offspring than any female can. Where that's the than any female can. Where that's the than any female can. Where that's the case though, case though, case though, there's going to be some males that have there's going to be some males that have there's going to be some males that have no offspring no offspring no offspring um or maybe a few a few or none. um or maybe a few a few or none. um or maybe a few a few or none. And where that's the case, you get And where that's the case, you get And where that's the case, you get strong selection on the males to be one strong selection on the males to be one strong selection on the males to be one of the lucky few males that has many of the lucky few males that has many of the lucky few males that has many offspring offspring offspring >> Mhm. >> Mhm. >> Mhm. >> rather than one of the the few that has >> rather than one of the the few that has >> rather than one of the the few that has none. none. none. >> Yep. >> Yep. >> Yep. >> Or one of the many that has none. >> Or one of the many that has none. >> Or one of the many that has none. >> Yep. >> Yep. >> Yep. >> Um and so that selects for traits like >> Um and so that selects for traits like >> Um and so that selects for traits like greater aggression, within sex greater aggression, within sex greater aggression, within sex aggression to try to beat up other males aggression to try to beat up other males aggression to try to beat up other males for either directly for females for either directly for females for either directly for females >> Okay. >> Okay. >> Okay. >> or for the territories, >> or for the territories, >> or for the territories, the status, or the resources that are the status, or the resources that are the status, or the resources that are necessary to attract female attention. necessary to attract female attention. necessary to attract female attention. Uh a tendency to show off, a tendency to Uh a tendency to show off, a tendency to Uh a tendency to show off, a tendency to grow a great big tail. If you're a grow a great big tail. If you're a grow a great big tail. If you're a peacock, you might want to try that. peacock, you might want to try that. peacock, you might want to try that. Grow a great big flashy tail to seduce Grow a great big flashy tail to seduce Grow a great big flashy tail to seduce the peahens. the peahens. the peahens. Um, or just a tendency to seek multiple Um, or just a tendency to seek multiple Um, or just a tendency to seek multiple mates. And uh, and seek no strings mates. And uh, and seek no strings mates. And uh, and seek no strings attached sex, basically. So, that's the attached sex, basically. So, that's the attached sex, basically. So, that's the answer to your earlier question. Is that answer to your earlier question. Is that answer to your earlier question. Is that what That's why you have selection for what That's why you have selection for what That's why you have selection for like stronger selection on males than like stronger selection on males than like stronger selection on males than females for an interest in multiple females for an interest in multiple females for an interest in multiple partners and sex without commitment or partners and sex without commitment or partners and sex without commitment or that kind of thing. that kind of thing. that kind of thing. >> Did you know your gut controls your >> Did you know your gut controls your >> Did you know your gut controls your energy, your recovery, how well you energy, your recovery, how well you energy, your recovery, how well you absorb everything that you eat, and the absorb everything that you eat, and the absorb everything that you eat, and the one nutrient that keeps it all running one nutrient that keeps it all running one nutrient that keeps it all running properly is fiber? 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And the >> That is a major contributor. And the reason is that So, so this variance sex reason is that So, so this variance sex reason is that So, so this variance sex difference is mainly a a result of sex difference is mainly a a result of sex difference is mainly a a result of sex differences in parental investment. So, differences in parental investment. So, differences in parental investment. So, the reason that um, some males can have the reason that um, some males can have the reason that um, some males can have many, many more offspring than any many, many more offspring than any many, many more offspring than any female in in a lot of species is that female in in a lot of species is that female in in a lot of species is that females invest more in the young. females invest more in the young. females invest more in the young. So, in mammals for instance, to produce So, in mammals for instance, to produce So, in mammals for instance, to produce any one offspring, uh, a female has to any one offspring, uh, a female has to any one offspring, uh, a female has to have a have a long pregnancy, has to have a have a long pregnancy, has to have a have a long pregnancy, has to give birth to the young, and then has to give birth to the young, and then has to give birth to the young, and then has to nurse the young uh for for a while, nurse the young uh for for a while, nurse the young uh for for a while, whereas uh a male to produce an whereas uh a male to produce an whereas uh a male to produce an offspring just, in principle, only needs offspring just, in principle, only needs offspring just, in principle, only needs to um engage in in one sex act. to um engage in in one sex act. to um engage in in one sex act. >> Mhm. >> Mhm. >> Mhm. >> So, he can mate with multiple females >> So, he can mate with multiple females >> So, he can mate with multiple females and have tons of offspring cuz he and have tons of offspring cuz he and have tons of offspring cuz he invests invests invests potentially little in any given potentially little in any given potentially little in any given offspring. offspring. offspring. >> Mhm. >> Mhm. >> Mhm. >> Uh whereas the females on the other >> Uh whereas the females on the other >> Uh whereas the females on the other hand, they invest a lot in each hand, they invest a lot in each hand, they invest a lot in each offspring. That lowers the ceiling for offspring. That lowers the ceiling for offspring. That lowers the ceiling for the number of offspring they can the number of offspring they can the number of offspring they can produce. produce. produce. >> Therefore, you have to be choosier. >> Therefore, you have to be choosier. >> Therefore, you have to be choosier. >> You have to be choosier about your >> You have to be choosier about your >> You have to be choosier about your mates, exactly. Sleeping with mates, exactly. Sleeping with mates, exactly. Sleeping with uh or or mating with lots and lots of uh or or mating with lots and lots of uh or or mating with lots and lots of males less useful for females than for males less useful for females than for males less useful for females than for males. males. males. Um Um Um but but but so so parental investment is really the so so parental investment is really the so so parental investment is really the core um to core um to core um to >> Is that the Is that the key driver? >> Is that the Is that the key driver? >> Is that the Is that the key driver? >> Uh well, I think the key driver is the >> Uh well, I think the key driver is the >> Uh well, I think the key driver is the difference in the maximum offspring difference in the maximum offspring difference in the maximum offspring number or or the reproductive variance. number or or the reproductive variance. number or or the reproductive variance. >> Right. >> Right. >> Right. >> Because it's not just shaped by parental >> Because it's not just shaped by parental >> Because it's not just shaped by parental investment. investment. investment. >> Behaviorally, that shows up as parental >> Behaviorally, that shows up as parental >> Behaviorally, that shows up as parental investment. investment. investment. >> Well, that's a big part of it, yeah. So, >> Well, that's a big part of it, yeah. So, >> Well, that's a big part of it, yeah. So, the parental investment is is the major the parental investment is is the major the parental investment is is the major cause of the sex difference in in cause of the sex difference in in cause of the sex difference in in maximum offspring number. But other maximum offspring number. But other maximum offspring number. But other things do come into it in different things do come into it in different things do come into it in different species. species. species. >> periods too is like a biological >> periods too is like a biological >> periods too is like a biological imposition on parental investment, imposition on parental investment, imposition on parental investment, right? right? right? >> Well, look, is actually is is >> Well, look, is actually is is >> Well, look, is actually is is how long it takes to just make a baby how long it takes to just make a baby how long it takes to just make a baby considered part of parental investment? considered part of parental investment? considered part of parental investment? >> of parental investment, yeah. >> of parental investment, yeah. >> of parental investment, yeah. >> Right. >> Right. >> Right. >> And parental care is and nursing is >> And parental care is and nursing is >> And parental care is and nursing is >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Um >> Um >> Um >> Obviously those two, but I wasn't sure >> Obviously those two, but I wasn't sure >> Obviously those two, but I wasn't sure whether or not it's classed Parental whether or not it's classed Parental whether or not it's classed Parental investment is classed as actually the investment is classed as actually the investment is classed as actually the making of the baby. making of the baby. making of the baby. >> It it is cuz it forecloses the option to >> It it is cuz it forecloses the option to >> It it is cuz it forecloses the option to make other babies. make other babies. make other babies. >> Understood. >> Understood. >> Understood. >> Yeah. Yep. Yep. Yep. Um but ecological >> Yeah. Yep. Yep. Yep. Um but ecological >> Yeah. Yep. Yep. Yep. Um but ecological factors come into it as well. So, one factors come into it as well. So, one factors come into it as well. So, one example of um effect other than parental example of um effect other than parental example of um effect other than parental investment that influences the investment that influences the investment that influences the reproductive variance uh is ecological reproductive variance uh is ecological reproductive variance uh is ecological factors. So, you'll have some species factors. So, you'll have some species factors. So, you'll have some species where the males where they're quite where the males where they're quite where the males where they're quite solitary. So, the males and females solitary. So, the males and females solitary. So, the males and females might pair up, and there aren't many might pair up, and there aren't many might pair up, and there aren't many other individuals around. Um even if the other individuals around. Um even if the other individuals around. Um even if the female invests a lot more in the young female invests a lot more in the young female invests a lot more in the young than the male does, than the male does, than the male does, their maximum offspring number is about their maximum offspring number is about their maximum offspring number is about the same because just simply cuz they're the same because just simply cuz they're the same because just simply cuz they're isolated from other uh members of the isolated from other uh members of the isolated from other uh members of the species, the males don't have many other species, the males don't have many other species, the males don't have many other opportunities to sow their wild oats, opportunities to sow their wild oats, opportunities to sow their wild oats, basically. basically. basically. >> What's Bateman's principle? >> What's Bateman's principle? >> What's Bateman's principle? >> Bateman's principle, >> Bateman's principle, >> Bateman's principle, so that is the idea that reproductive so that is the idea that reproductive so that is the idea that reproductive variance is greater in males than variance is greater in males than variance is greater in males than females in most species. females in most species. females in most species. >> Right. >> Right. >> Right. >> And then Trivers sort of refinement of >> And then Trivers sort of refinement of >> And then Trivers sort of refinement of that was that the main cause of that is that was that the main cause of that is that was that the main cause of that is parental investment. So so Bateman parental investment. So so Bateman parental investment. So so Bateman put put put a lot of it on anisogamy. He put put put a lot of it on anisogamy. He put put put a lot of it on anisogamy. He explained the difference in in explained the difference in in explained the difference in in reproductive variance in terms of the reproductive variance in terms of the reproductive variance in terms of the fact that fact that fact that um um um females invest more per egg than males females invest more per egg than males females invest more per egg than males invest per sperm. invest per sperm. invest per sperm. Um Um Um Trivers said, Robert Trivers, who died Trivers said, Robert Trivers, who died Trivers said, Robert Trivers, who died recently, he said it's not just that, recently, he said it's not just that, recently, he said it's not just that, actually it's it's all kinds of actually it's it's all kinds of actually it's it's all kinds of investment that you put into into the investment that you put into into the investment that you put into into the young, not just the gametes, but also young, not just the gametes, but also young, not just the gametes, but also gestation and parturition, which is gestation and parturition, which is gestation and parturition, which is giving birth, uh nursing, parental care, giving birth, uh nursing, parental care, giving birth, uh nursing, parental care, all those things um are what matters. all those things um are what matters. all those things um are what matters. And and I would just add that it's And and I would just add that it's And and I would just add that it's parental investment is the big one, but parental investment is the big one, but parental investment is the big one, but other things as well determine other things as well determine other things as well determine reproductive variance. reproductive variance. reproductive variance. >> What is the It's about 40% of males of >> What is the It's about 40% of males of >> What is the It's about 40% of males of human males ancestrally reproduce and human males ancestrally reproduce and human males ancestrally reproduce and about 80% of females, is that right? about 80% of females, is that right? about 80% of females, is that right? >> I have heard that number bandied about. >> I have heard that number bandied about. >> I have heard that number bandied about. I actually think that probably I actually think that probably I actually think that probably in our species, in our species, in our species, my guess is that it's not it's not that my guess is that it's not it's not that my guess is that it's not it's not that big. I've also seen other evidence big. I've also seen other evidence big. I've also seen other evidence suggesting that um suggesting that um suggesting that um it's called reproductive skew, it's called reproductive skew, it's called reproductive skew, >> Mhm. >> Mhm. >> Mhm. >> and suggesting that the reproductive >> and suggesting that the reproductive >> and suggesting that the reproductive skew in our species is quite a bit lower skew in our species is quite a bit lower skew in our species is quite a bit lower than you find in most mammals. than you find in most mammals. than you find in most mammals. And I think the reason for that is that And I think the reason for that is that And I think the reason for that is that >> So the 40-80 number you think is is >> So the 40-80 number you think is is >> So the 40-80 number you think is is wrong? wrong? wrong? >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Right, okay. >> Right, okay. >> Right, okay. >> so. I think it's I think it's a small >> so. I think it's I think it's a small >> so. I think it's I think it's a small one. I well I think it's smaller and I one. I well I think it's smaller and I one. I well I think it's smaller and I think because males in our species very think because males in our species very think because males in our species very often invest often invest often invest quite a lot in the in the young. So it's quite a lot in the in the young. So it's quite a lot in the in the young. So it's not just the sex act. Um they often not just the sex act. Um they often not just the sex act. Um they often typically help out with the young as typically help out with the young as typically help out with the young as well. well. well. Uh and so we have we have high levels of Uh and so we have we have high levels of Uh and so we have we have high levels of biparental care in our species. That biparental care in our species. That biparental care in our species. That reduces the maximum offspring number for reduces the maximum offspring number for reduces the maximum offspring number for males relative to females and males relative to females and males relative to females and brings it down brings it closer to what brings it down brings it closer to what brings it down brings it closer to what we have for females. we have for females. we have for females. >> So if other animals have less of a >> So if other animals have less of a >> So if other animals have less of a reproductive skew but also have less reproductive skew but also have less reproductive skew but also have less male parental investment, how would the male parental investment, how would the male parental investment, how would the reproductive skew for us be so great if reproductive skew for us be so great if reproductive skew for us be so great if we have more male parental investment? we have more male parental investment? we have more male parental investment? Is that what you're saying? Is that what you're saying? Is that what you're saying? >> That that is what I'm saying. >> That that is what I'm saying. >> That that is what I'm saying. >> Bingo! I [ __ ] know evolutionary >> Bingo! I [ __ ] know evolutionary >> Bingo! I [ __ ] know evolutionary psychology, dude. Don't test me on this. psychology, dude. Don't test me on this. psychology, dude. Don't test me on this. I [ __ ] understand this. It's the only I [ __ ] understand this. It's the only I [ __ ] understand this. It's the only topic I understand. topic I understand. topic I understand. Um Um Um >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> So it's the variance in reproductive >> So it's the variance in reproductive >> So it's the variance in reproductive success. success. success. >> What >> What >> What >> What do you What do you reckon it was >> What do you What do you reckon it was >> What do you What do you reckon it was then if it's not 40/80? Feel free to then if it's not 40/80? Feel free to then if it's not 40/80? Feel free to just bro-science it. just bro-science it. just bro-science it. >> I think I >> I think I >> I think I I might I might I might >> [laughter] >> [laughter] >> [laughter] >> Um I probably shouldn't put a number. I >> Um I probably shouldn't put a number. I >> Um I probably shouldn't put a number. I I uh I uh I uh other than to say I think it's smaller. other than to say I think it's smaller. other than to say I think it's smaller. I think it was it was smaller. I think it was it was smaller. I think it was it was smaller. I know. I know. I know. I know. I know. I know. >> That's why I'm in the room, dude. Let me >> That's why I'm in the room, dude. Let me >> That's why I'm in the room, dude. Let me just [laughter] find and put this thing just [laughter] find and put this thing just [laughter] find and put this thing on for the rest of the conversation. Um on for the rest of the conversation. Um on for the rest of the conversation. Um >> Well, you've got these as well. >> Well, you've got these as well. >> Well, you've got these as well. >> That's also That's if you want to say >> That's also That's if you want to say >> That's also That's if you want to say something insane. something insane. something insane. >> Okay, cool. Well, I'll keep it here cuz >> Okay, cool. Well, I'll keep it here cuz >> Okay, cool. Well, I'll keep it here cuz I may well want to I may well want to I may well want to >> insane, you're allowed to put that on. >> insane, you're allowed to put that on. >> insane, you're allowed to put that on. It's actually saved me once already. I It's actually saved me once already. I It's actually saved me once already. I I got I got clipped talking about a I got I got clipped talking about a I got I got clipped talking about a slightly highly postulated theory. Put slightly highly postulated theory. Put slightly highly postulated theory. Put that on. It's going to be interesting on that on. It's going to be interesting on that on. It's going to be interesting on you because you already have the you because you already have the you because you already have the mustache and the glasses. mustache and the glasses. mustache and the glasses. >> It will indeed, yeah. >> It will indeed, yeah. >> It will indeed, yeah. >> Nothing's changed. >> Nothing's changed. >> Nothing's changed. >> Nothing's changed. >> Nothing's changed. >> Nothing's changed. >> [laughter] >> Yeah. Okay, so we've got a >> Yeah. Okay, so we've got a It's like an interesting I guess an It's like an interesting I guess an It's like an interesting I guess an interesting interesting interesting pivot on what people think. The That's pivot on what people think. The That's pivot on what people think. The That's sort of 40/80 number. As far as I was sort of 40/80 number. As far as I was sort of 40/80 number. As far as I was aware, like to actually aware, like to actually aware, like to actually So you think the skew is different? What So you think the skew is different? What So you think the skew is different? What I thought might be true is that the I thought might be true is that the I thought might be true is that the overall number might be different, too. overall number might be different, too. overall number might be different, too. That the whole To me, infant mortality That the whole To me, infant mortality That the whole To me, infant mortality >> Right. Right. Right. >> Right. Right. Right. >> Right. Right. Right. >> [ __ ] ruthless. So >> [ __ ] ruthless. So >> [ __ ] ruthless. So the only way that we can work out how the only way that we can work out how the only way that we can work out how many many many of our ancestors reproduced presumably of our ancestors reproduced presumably of our ancestors reproduced presumably is due to some kind of genealogy stuff. is due to some kind of genealogy stuff. is due to some kind of genealogy stuff. And that means that it's not how many And that means that it's not how many And that means that it's not how many reproduced, it's how many survived. reproduced, it's how many survived. reproduced, it's how many survived. >> Yeah, survived to reproduce >> Yeah, survived to reproduce >> Yeah, survived to reproduce >> yeah. The grandparent optimizing machine >> yeah. The grandparent optimizing machine >> yeah. The grandparent optimizing machine from your from your from your previous book, which is fantastic and previous book, which is fantastic and previous book, which is fantastic and everyone needs to go and look at. everyone needs to go and look at. everyone needs to go and look at. >> Um yeah, everyone has said the universe. >> Um yeah, everyone has said the universe. >> Um yeah, everyone has said the universe. >> 80% of women having >> 80% of women having >> 80% of women having grandchildren producing or grandchildren producing or grandchildren producing or 80% of women being grandchildren 80% of women being grandchildren 80% of women being grandchildren producing people producing people producing people >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> seems insanely high to me. >> seems insanely high to me. >> seems insanely high to me. >> Uh I guess the thing is that they would >> Uh I guess the thing is that they would >> Uh I guess the thing is that they would have had a bunch of kids and only about have had a bunch of kids and only about have had a bunch of kids and only about 50% would make it, but 50% would make it 50% would make it, but 50% would make it 50% would make it, but 50% would make it and so if they, you know, have sex for and so if they, you know, have sex for and so if they, you know, have sex for instance. instance. instance. >> That's what it is, around about 50% >> That's what it is, around about 50% >> That's what it is, around about 50% >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> that are born go on to reproduce. >> that are born go on to reproduce. >> that are born go on to reproduce. >> With unbelievably high, right? >> With unbelievably high, right? >> With unbelievably high, right? Uh what about 50% um infant mortality Uh what about 50% um infant mortality Uh what about 50% um infant mortality rate. So, like half of them didn't make rate. So, like half of them didn't make rate. So, like half of them didn't make it. Yeah. One of the great things I it. Yeah. One of the great things I it. Yeah. One of the great things I think about civilization is that we have think about civilization is that we have think about civilization is that we have lowered that number to very close to lowered that number to very close to lowered that number to very close to zero zero zero cuz that was I think a massive cause of cuz that was I think a massive cause of cuz that was I think a massive cause of misery throughout most of human history. misery throughout most of human history. misery throughout most of human history. >> Was it Darwin lost a bunch of kids? >> Was it Darwin lost a bunch of kids? >> Was it Darwin lost a bunch of kids? >> He did, yeah. He had uh >> He did, yeah. He had uh >> He did, yeah. He had uh What was it? He He had 10 and three What was it? He He had 10 and three What was it? He He had 10 and three didn't make it to adulthood, I think didn't make it to adulthood, I think didn't make it to adulthood, I think that's the number. Yeah. that's the number. Yeah. that's the number. Yeah. >> Is it your book or was it I think this >> Is it your book or was it I think this >> Is it your book or was it I think this might have been The Moral Animal Yeah. might have been The Moral Animal Yeah. might have been The Moral Animal Yeah. where where where Robert Wright talks about the fact that Robert Wright talks about the fact that Robert Wright talks about the fact that Darwin lost multiple children. Darwin lost multiple children. Darwin lost multiple children. But the one that was the most But the one that was the most But the one that was the most psychologically painful Yeah. was his psychologically painful Yeah. was his psychologically painful Yeah. was his daughter who was 12 or 13. daughter who was 12 or 13. daughter who was 12 or 13. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> And the reason for that >> And the reason for that >> And the reason for that the evolutionary reason that Robert the evolutionary reason that Robert the evolutionary reason that Robert gives for it is that gives for it is that gives for it is that parents are able to detect parents are able to detect parents are able to detect the moment at which the life cycle of the moment at which the life cycle of the moment at which the life cycle of their child would have allowed them to their child would have allowed them to their child would have allowed them to just about become the grandparent just about become the grandparent just about become the grandparent optimizing machine that evolutionarily optimizing machine that evolutionarily optimizing machine that evolutionarily we're driven to be. And that if a child we're driven to be. And that if a child we're driven to be. And that if a child dies at two years old, that's dies at two years old, that's dies at two years old, that's horrible, but horrible, but horrible, but they won't they had a long way to go and they won't they had a long way to go and they won't they had a long way to go and many things could have occurred between many things could have occurred between many things could have occurred between now and being able to have kids. If a now and being able to have kids. If a now and being able to have kids. If a child dies when they're old, then child dies when they're old, then child dies when they're old, then they've had all of the opportunities to they've had all of the opportunities to they've had all of the opportunities to have had kids and that didn't have had kids and that didn't have had kids and that didn't didn't go well or maybe did go well. But didn't go well or maybe did go well. But didn't go well or maybe did go well. But if you are just on the cusp of being if you are just on the cusp of being if you are just on the cusp of being able to reproduce biologically and you able to reproduce biologically and you able to reproduce biologically and you die, that is from an evolutionary die, that is from an evolutionary die, that is from an evolutionary perspective the most painful. Am I perspective the most painful. Am I perspective the most painful. Am I making that up or is that the story? making that up or is that the story? making that up or is that the story? >> No, that is the story. Yeah. And >> No, that is the story. Yeah. And >> No, that is the story. Yeah. And there's there's there's pretty good evidence on it as well. That pretty good evidence on it as well. That pretty good evidence on it as well. That grief tracks reproductive value of the grief tracks reproductive value of the grief tracks reproductive value of the individual. individual. individual. >> No [ __ ] way. So this has been >> No [ __ ] way. So this has been >> No [ __ ] way. So this has been reproduced cuz that book's 30 years old reproduced cuz that book's 30 years old reproduced cuz that book's 30 years old now. now. now. >> Yeah. Yeah. >> Yeah. Yeah. >> Yeah. Yeah. Um yeah, go the grief average grief Um yeah, go the grief average grief Um yeah, go the grief average grief levels go up and up and up as levels go up and up and up as levels go up and up and up as reproductive value goes up as as kids reproductive value goes up as as kids reproductive value goes up as as kids move from the very vulnerable move from the very vulnerable move from the very vulnerable historically very vulnerable early historically very vulnerable early historically very vulnerable early infancy to childhood, it's kind of peaks infancy to childhood, it's kind of peaks infancy to childhood, it's kind of peaks at about the age that reproductive value at about the age that reproductive value at about the age that reproductive value peaks. So couple of years after puberty peaks. So couple of years after puberty peaks. So couple of years after puberty and then starts coming down again as and then starts coming down again as and then starts coming down again as people get older. people get older. people get older. >> [ __ ] fascinating. How is everyone not >> [ __ ] fascinating. How is everyone not >> [ __ ] fascinating. How is everyone not obsessed with evolutionary psychology? obsessed with evolutionary psychology? obsessed with evolutionary psychology? It's so cool. It's so fun. It's so cool. It's so fun. It's so cool. It's so fun. >> And sheds light on some of the most >> And sheds light on some of the most >> And sheds light on some of the most fundamental stuff in life. fundamental stuff in life. fundamental stuff in life. >> Yeah, I mean obviously it's very >> Yeah, I mean obviously it's very >> Yeah, I mean obviously it's very bleak in some ways too. It's very stark. bleak in some ways too. It's very stark. bleak in some ways too. It's very stark. It doesn't paint a particularly It doesn't paint a particularly It doesn't paint a particularly flattering picture of human motivation. flattering picture of human motivation. flattering picture of human motivation. Like the reason that Darwin was Like the reason that Darwin was Like the reason that Darwin was particularly sad about his 13-year-old particularly sad about his 13-year-old particularly sad about his 13-year-old daughter dying is that he had this weird daughter dying is that he had this weird daughter dying is that he had this weird algorithm running in the back of his algorithm running in the back of his algorithm running in the back of his mind. He's like, "Oh, so you're just mind. He's like, "Oh, so you're just mind. He's like, "Oh, so you're just saying that all the children are that saying that all the children are that saying that all the children are that produced for you to be happy to do produced for you to be happy to do produced for you to be happy to do things like things like things like I do that you you don't need to lord I do that you you don't need to lord I do that you you don't need to lord our ultimate evolutionary drives our ultimate evolutionary drives our ultimate evolutionary drives >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> in order to understand and respect them >> in order to understand and respect them >> in order to understand and respect them and accept the fact that they are and accept the fact that they are and accept the fact that they are important influences on our behavior. important influences on our behavior. important influences on our behavior. >> I completely agree and even you know, >> I completely agree and even you know, >> I completely agree and even you know, and I do feel the pull to what like it and I do feel the pull to what like it and I do feel the pull to what like it is a bit bleak. I remember when I was is a bit bleak. I remember when I was is a bit bleak. I remember when I was first reading about that grief theory, first reading about that grief theory, first reading about that grief theory, it does seem a bit a bit dark. But then it does seem a bit a bit dark. But then it does seem a bit a bit dark. But then when you think about it though, it's not when you think about it though, it's not when you think about it though, it's not very flattering exactly. I mean, I guess very flattering exactly. I mean, I guess very flattering exactly. I mean, I guess one thing is that um one thing is that um one thing is that um we don't actually we're not actually we don't actually we're not actually we don't actually we're not actually thinking about reproductive value. thinking about reproductive value. thinking about reproductive value. Uh we just we just have a built-in Uh we just we just have a built-in Uh we just we just have a built-in tendency to react as if we are. But tendency to react as if we are. But tendency to react as if we are. But we're not actually thinking in the back we're not actually thinking in the back we're not actually thinking in the back of our minds, this is sad because of our minds, this is sad because of our minds, this is sad because I this this kid was going to close I this this kid was going to close I this this kid was going to close [laughter] to having kids and then I [laughter] to having kids and then I [laughter] to having kids and then I wouldn't have been wouldn't have been wouldn't have been >> then. Well, this is >> then. Well, this is >> then. Well, this is this is sort of my least I don't know this is sort of my least I don't know this is sort of my least I don't know actually. I I I probably could write out actually. I I I probably could write out actually. I I I probably could write out a hit list of my least favorite internet a hit list of my least favorite internet a hit list of my least favorite internet rebuttals to anyone talking about rebuttals to anyone talking about rebuttals to anyone talking about evolutionary theory, but one of them is evolutionary theory, but one of them is evolutionary theory, but one of them is a lack of understanding about the a lack of understanding about the a lack of understanding about the difference between proximate and difference between proximate and difference between proximate and ultimate motivations for behavior. ultimate motivations for behavior. ultimate motivations for behavior. >> Yeah, exactly. So one of the big ones. >> Yeah, exactly. So one of the big ones. >> Yeah, exactly. So one of the big ones. >> Yeah, like the >> Yeah, like the >> Yeah, like the >> big misunderstandings. >> big misunderstandings. >> big misunderstandings. >> why you >> why you >> why you feel the desire to do a thing feel the desire to do a thing feel the desire to do a thing and the evolutionary advantage of you and the evolutionary advantage of you and the evolutionary advantage of you doing the thing. The fact that those two doing the thing. The fact that those two doing the thing. The fact that those two things are different. Um you eat food things are different. Um you eat food things are different. Um you eat food because it tastes good. But the reason because it tastes good. But the reason because it tastes good. But the reason for eating food is to keep you alive. for eating food is to keep you alive. for eating food is to keep you alive. You have sex because it feels good, but You have sex because it feels good, but You have sex because it feels good, but the reason to have sex is not the reason the reason to have sex is not the reason the reason to have sex is not the reason that it feels good. that it feels good. that it feels good. >> Exactly right. And and it's quite >> Exactly right. And and it's quite >> Exactly right. And and it's quite annoying, right, when people say, "So annoying, right, when people say, "So annoying, right, when people say, "So you're saying that um like sex and you're saying that um like sex and you're saying that um like sex and uh having like short-term relationships uh having like short-term relationships uh having like short-term relationships or long-term relationships is just about or long-term relationships is just about or long-term relationships is just about babies, but that can't be true cuz often babies, but that can't be true cuz often babies, but that can't be true cuz often the last people the last thing people the last people the last thing people the last people the last thing people want is to have kids." want is to have kids." want is to have kids." >> I don't want to have kids. I'd love to >> I don't want to have kids. I'd love to >> I don't want to have kids. I'd love to have sex. have sex. have sex. >> Yeah. Yeah, yeah, exactly. So it doesn't >> Yeah. Yeah, yeah, exactly. So it doesn't >> Yeah. Yeah, yeah, exactly. So it doesn't make sense. They've just misunderstood make sense. They've just misunderstood make sense. They've just misunderstood the idea cuz it's not a psychological the idea cuz it's not a psychological the idea cuz it's not a psychological theory. theory. theory. Uh like the the genes I view Uh like the the genes I view Uh like the the genes I view explanations the the evolutionary explanations the the evolutionary explanations the the evolutionary explanations those are not motivations. explanations those are not motivations. explanations those are not motivations. Those are just explanations for why we Those are just explanations for why we Those are just explanations for why we have the the proximate have the the proximate have the the proximate psychological drives that we do. psychological drives that we do. psychological drives that we do. >> Not the ultimate. >> Not the ultimate. >> Not the ultimate. >> Exactly. >> Exactly. >> Exactly. >> Yeah, yeah. And you know, with the >> Yeah, yeah. And you know, with the >> Yeah, yeah. And you know, with the the the the what's it referred to as that theory of what's it referred to as that theory of what's it referred to as that theory of the sexual not sexual value? the sexual not sexual value? the sexual not sexual value? >> Um >> Um >> Um >> of >> of >> of uh uh uh Darwin's daughter dying, what's the Darwin's daughter dying, what's the Darwin's daughter dying, what's the >> Oh, yeah. Our reproductive value. >> Oh, yeah. Our reproductive value. >> Oh, yeah. Our reproductive value. >> Reproductive value. >> Reproductive value. >> Reproductive value. No one is how horrible to say to a No one is how horrible to say to a No one is how horrible to say to a parent, "Well, it's actually parent, "Well, it's actually parent, "Well, it's actually Mrs. Thompson, the reason that you're Mrs. Thompson, the reason that you're Mrs. Thompson, the reason that you're grief Mrs. Darwin, the reason that your grief Mrs. Darwin, the reason that your grief Mrs. Darwin, the reason that your grief is so high is because of the grief is so high is because of the grief is so high is because of the reproductive value that your daughter reproductive value that your daughter reproductive value that your daughter almost didn't cash in on." almost didn't cash in on." almost didn't cash in on." Horrible, horrible thing to say. But it Horrible, horrible thing to say. But it Horrible, horrible thing to say. But it doesn't need to doesn't need to doesn't need to it doesn't need to be something that's it doesn't need to be something that's it doesn't need to be something that's in your mind to like go how could you in your mind to like go how could you in your mind to like go how could you claim that this mother is feeling that, claim that this mother is feeling that, claim that this mother is feeling that, thinking that at the time and that's thinking that at the time and that's thinking that at the time and that's contributing to a grief? No. contributing to a grief? No. contributing to a grief? No. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> No, she just loves the kid. Yeah. It >> No, she just loves the kid. Yeah. It >> No, she just loves the kid. Yeah. It would would be the same it would be the would would be the same it would be the would would be the same it would be the same as going same as going same as going why is it that people get depressed when why is it that people get depressed when why is it that people get depressed when they're lonely? I'm not thinking about they're lonely? I'm not thinking about they're lonely? I'm not thinking about potentially being kicked out of the potentially being kicked out of the potentially being kicked out of the tribe. You go, "Well, yeah, like we're tribe. You go, "Well, yeah, like we're tribe. You go, "Well, yeah, like we're in a modern environment. Why do you in a modern environment. Why do you in a modern environment. Why do you think it is that depression and anxiety think it is that depression and anxiety think it is that depression and anxiety correlate with isolation?" correlate with isolation?" correlate with isolation?" >> Yeah. Yeah. >> Yeah. Yeah. >> Yeah. Yeah. >> If it didn't matter. Well, it does >> If it didn't matter. Well, it does >> If it didn't matter. Well, it does matter. It doesn't matter anymore, not matter. It doesn't matter anymore, not matter. It doesn't matter anymore, not in the same sort of a way, but that in the same sort of a way, but that in the same sort of a way, but that doesn't negate the fact that our system doesn't negate the fact that our system doesn't negate the fact that our system is basically ancient programming living is basically ancient programming living is basically ancient programming living in a modern world. in a modern world. in a modern world. >> Exactly. And even though it does seem >> Exactly. And even though it does seem >> Exactly. And even though it does seem bleak sometimes, I don't see that other bleak sometimes, I don't see that other bleak sometimes, I don't see that other explanations, socio-cultural explanations, socio-cultural explanations, socio-cultural explanations would be any less bleak, explanations would be any less bleak, explanations would be any less bleak, you know? If they were telling me you know? If they were telling me you know? If they were telling me >> I'm at the mercy of the memes and trends >> I'm at the mercy of the memes and trends >> I'm at the mercy of the memes and trends of the modern world. of the modern world. of the modern world. Some guy decides to start a new cool Some guy decides to start a new cool Some guy decides to start a new cool movement somewhere and then that movement somewhere and then that movement somewhere and then that completely sort of blows the wind of completely sort of blows the wind of completely sort of blows the wind of whatever it is that I'm supposed to care whatever it is that I'm supposed to care whatever it is that I'm supposed to care about. about. about. >> Exactly. Or or you might say, "Okay, the >> Exactly. Or or you might say, "Okay, the >> Exactly. Or or you might say, "Okay, the reason that you grieve this individual reason that you grieve this individual reason that you grieve this individual is just because you've been socialized is just because you've been socialized is just because you've been socialized to do so." to do so." to do so." How's that any less any less bleak? How's that any less any less bleak? How's that any less any less bleak? >> It's the same. This is why I think >> It's the same. This is why I think >> It's the same. This is why I think there's a lot of similarities between there's a lot of similarities between there's a lot of similarities between evolutionary psychology and behavioral evolutionary psychology and behavioral evolutionary psychology and behavioral genetics that if you start to strip away genetics that if you start to strip away genetics that if you start to strip away the science and the evidence underneath the science and the evidence underneath the science and the evidence underneath it, what you end up with is an equally it, what you end up with is an equally it, what you end up with is an equally or maybe even uglier perspective. No, if or maybe even uglier perspective. No, if or maybe even uglier perspective. No, if if for instance, if you deny that there if for instance, if you deny that there if for instance, if you deny that there are genetic influences on outcomes in are genetic influences on outcomes in are genetic influences on outcomes in life, life, life, >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> what you're left with is this world >> what you're left with is this world >> what you're left with is this world where where where everybody did start off everybody did start off everybody did start off equal. equal. equal. And you are exclusively at the mercy And you are exclusively at the mercy And you are exclusively at the mercy of the entire world. of the entire world. of the entire world. >> And and injustices. >> And and injustices. >> And and injustices. >> Yeah. Yeah. The the only reason that >> Yeah. Yeah. The the only reason that >> Yeah. Yeah. The the only reason that this didn't come out is all on your this didn't come out is all on your this didn't come out is all on your shoulders. All on your shoulders because shoulders. All on your shoulders because shoulders. All on your shoulders because you didn't try hard enough or your you didn't try hard enough or your you didn't try hard enough or your parents didn't try hard enough. parents didn't try hard enough. parents didn't try hard enough. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Horrible. Horrible. >> Horrible. Horrible. >> Horrible. Horrible. >> And I guess so the thing is that >> And I guess so the thing is that >> And I guess so the thing is that whatever hard truth whatever hard truth whatever hard truth and they're not all hard either, but and they're not all hard either, but and they're not all hard either, but whatever hard truths whatever hard truths whatever hard truths ultimately we just got to um accept ultimately we just got to um accept ultimately we just got to um accept what's true, whether we like it or not. what's true, whether we like it or not. what's true, whether we like it or not. As you know, sometimes it is positive. As you know, sometimes it is positive. As you know, sometimes it is positive. So so in natural selection has given us So so in natural selection has given us So so in natural selection has given us a whole range of less than noble traits, a whole range of less than noble traits, a whole range of less than noble traits, but it's also given us some really but it's also given us some really but it's also given us some really lovely traits as well. Like the capacity lovely traits as well. Like the capacity lovely traits as well. Like the capacity to fall in love and to love our children to fall in love and to love our children to fall in love and to love our children and to love our friends. and to love our friends. and to love our friends. >> Mhm. >> Mhm. >> Mhm. >> You know, these are all great >> You know, these are all great >> You know, these are all great things. Yeah. Yeah. things. Yeah. Yeah. things. Yeah. Yeah. Exactly. To be able to do stuff. Exactly. To be able to do stuff. Exactly. To be able to do stuff. >> Okay. So I guess one just to round out >> Okay. So I guess one just to round out >> Okay. So I guess one just to round out the We haven't even got into the sex the We haven't even got into the sex the We haven't even got into the sex differences yet, which is the meat and differences yet, which is the meat and differences yet, which is the meat and potatoes of this, but I don't care. Um Is it Is it Are humans unique in this regard because Are humans unique in this regard because Are humans unique in this regard because we've got mutual mate choice mhm and we've got mutual mate choice mhm and we've got mutual mate choice mhm and we've got biparental care. we've got biparental care. we've got biparental care. So when we're talking about evolution of So when we're talking about evolution of So when we're talking about evolution of sex differences, parental investment, sex differences, parental investment, sex differences, parental investment, ability to produce children, volume of ability to produce children, volume of ability to produce children, volume of children across a lifespan, Bateman's children across a lifespan, Bateman's children across a lifespan, Bateman's principle, variance in reproductive principle, variance in reproductive principle, variance in reproductive success, success, success, but humans do seem to be somewhat of an but humans do seem to be somewhat of an but humans do seem to be somewhat of an outlier in mammals and especially in the outlier in mammals and especially in the outlier in mammals and especially in the animal kingdom. animal kingdom. animal kingdom. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. >> What wrinkle does that throw in? >> What wrinkle does that throw in? >> What wrinkle does that throw in? >> Uh well, yeah. So we are >> Uh well, yeah. So we are >> Uh well, yeah. So we are So the question, are we unique? Sort of So the question, are we unique? Sort of So the question, are we unique? Sort of yes and no. yes and no. yes and no. So the way in which we are unique, we're So the way in which we are unique, we're So the way in which we are unique, we're very unique among mammals. Like you say, very unique among mammals. Like you say, very unique among mammals. Like you say, in the fact that we have high levels of in the fact that we have high levels of in the fact that we have high levels of the tendency to pair bond, sort of fall the tendency to pair bond, sort of fall the tendency to pair bond, sort of fall in love and form relatively durable pair in love and form relatively durable pair in love and form relatively durable pair bonds and for both sexes rather than bonds and for both sexes rather than bonds and for both sexes rather than just the females to invest in the young. just the females to invest in the young. just the females to invest in the young. Um that is found in maybe 5 Um that is found in maybe 5 Um that is found in maybe 5 to 10% 10% at the most of mammals. to 10% 10% at the most of mammals. to 10% 10% at the most of mammals. So the overwhelming trend among mammals So the overwhelming trend among mammals So the overwhelming trend among mammals is that the females do all the is that the females do all the is that the females do all the investment in the young and the males investment in the young and the males investment in the young and the males are basically deadbeat dads. are basically deadbeat dads. are basically deadbeat dads. In birds on the other hand, they In birds on the other hand, they In birds on the other hand, they are an outlier family of animals among are an outlier family of animals among are an outlier family of animals among animals in general and that around 90% animals in general and that around 90% animals in general and that around 90% of birds form pair bonds and have of birds form pair bonds and have of birds form pair bonds and have biparental care. And so there's a funny biparental care. And so there's a funny biparental care. And so there's a funny thing I find this thing I find this thing I find this just very very interesting is that just very very interesting is that just very very interesting is that in our primary reproductive behavior, in our primary reproductive behavior, in our primary reproductive behavior, humans are more like the average bird humans are more like the average bird humans are more like the average bird than like the average mammal. than like the average mammal. than like the average mammal. >> No way. >> No way. >> No way. >> Yeah, that's cuz of our pair bonding and >> Yeah, that's cuz of our pair bonding and >> Yeah, that's cuz of our pair bonding and our biparental tendencies. our biparental tendencies. our biparental tendencies. >> Is a >> Is a >> Is a reinforcement that the reinforcement that the reinforcement that the parental investment is the key driver of parental investment is the key driver of parental investment is the key driver of sex differences. sex differences. sex differences. >> Yeah, exactly. >> Yeah, exactly. >> Yeah, exactly. And and of the And and of the And and of the difference in most birds hang on a difference in most birds hang on a difference in most birds hang on a second. So most birds are kind of like dinosaurs most birds are kind of like dinosaurs and humans are closer to birds than they and humans are closer to birds than they and humans are closer to birds than they are to most mammals, which means that are to most mammals, which means that are to most mammals, which means that humans are kind of dinosaurs. humans are kind of dinosaurs. humans are kind of dinosaurs. >> Yeah, so >> Yeah, so >> Yeah, so that's great. It's great. Do you want that's great. It's great. Do you want that's great. It's great. Do you want this or this or this or >> Yes, I don't need that. I don't need >> Yes, I don't need that. I don't need >> Yes, I don't need that. I don't need that. that. that. >> No, no, you don't cuz I I agree. So we >> No, no, you don't cuz I I agree. So we >> No, no, you don't cuz I I agree. So we we're mammals that are we're mammals that are we're mammals that are more like dinosaurs in terms of having more like dinosaurs in terms of having more like dinosaurs in terms of having the the primary reproductive arrangement the the primary reproductive arrangement the the primary reproductive arrangement of of today's dinosaurs. of of today's dinosaurs. of of today's dinosaurs. >> go. >> go. >> go. >> It's wild, right? >> It's wild, right? >> It's wild, right? >> Let's [ __ ] go. >> Let's [ __ ] go. >> Let's [ __ ] go. >> And so yes, so we're an exception among >> And so yes, so we're an exception among >> And so yes, so we're an exception among mammals in that respect. mammals in that respect. mammals in that respect. A way in which we're not an exception A way in which we're not an exception A way in which we're not an exception though though though is that the the same evolutionary is that the the same evolutionary is that the the same evolutionary principles that apply right across the principles that apply right across the principles that apply right across the animal kingdom apply to us as well. So animal kingdom apply to us as well. So animal kingdom apply to us as well. So the fact that sex differences emerge the fact that sex differences emerge the fact that sex differences emerge from the maximum offspring number, the from the maximum offspring number, the from the maximum offspring number, the the level of sex differences and the level of sex differences and the level of sex differences and reproductive variance reproductive variance reproductive variance that is true across the animal kingdom that is true across the animal kingdom that is true across the animal kingdom and and and the rules about that apply to us as well the rules about that apply to us as well the rules about that apply to us as well and the fact that we have we do have a and the fact that we have we do have a and the fact that we have we do have a sex difference and reproductive sex difference and reproductive sex difference and reproductive variance. Men do have and have always variance. Men do have and have always variance. Men do have and have always had greater reproductive variance than had greater reproductive variance than had greater reproductive variance than women, but it's relatively low compared women, but it's relatively low compared women, but it's relatively low compared to most mammals. to most mammals. to most mammals. >> Most people have no idea where their >> Most people have no idea where their >> Most people have no idea where their testosterone levels sit, but what if I testosterone levels sit, but what if I testosterone levels sit, but what if I told you there was a solution? Something told you there was a solution? Something told you there was a solution? Something that identifies low T faster than a high that identifies low T faster than a high that identifies low T faster than a high school bully, and it won't cost you all school bully, and it won't cost you all school bully, and it won't cost you all your lunch money. That's where Function your lunch money. 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So, get the exact same blood panels that I do and save $25 by going panels that I do and save $25 by going panels that I do and save $25 by going to the link in the description below or to the link in the description below or to the link in the description below or heading to heading to heading to functionhealth.com/modernwisdom functionhealth.com/modernwisdom functionhealth.com/modernwisdom using the code modernwisdom at checkout. using the code modernwisdom at checkout. using the code modernwisdom at checkout. >> Isn't there an interesting inversion of >> Isn't there an interesting inversion of >> Isn't there an interesting inversion of this in spiders where female spiders are this in spiders where female spiders are this in spiders where female spiders are bigger than the males? bigger than the males? bigger than the males? >> Uh actually, in most insects, it's that >> Uh actually, in most insects, it's that >> Uh actually, in most insects, it's that way around. And actually, there are more way around. And actually, there are more way around. And actually, there are more animals where the females are bigger animals where the females are bigger animals where the females are bigger than where the males are bigger. Um but than where the males are bigger. Um but than where the males are bigger. Um but that's not because of difference in that's not because of difference in that's not because of difference in reproductive variance. It's because reproductive variance. It's because reproductive variance. It's because um um um in a lot of species, the main driver of in a lot of species, the main driver of in a lot of species, the main driver of sexual dimorphism is just the number of sexual dimorphism is just the number of sexual dimorphism is just the number of eggs that you can produce. And females eggs that you can produce. And females eggs that you can produce. And females bigger females can produce more eggs. bigger females can produce more eggs. bigger females can produce more eggs. There's a selection pressure on them to There's a selection pressure on them to There's a selection pressure on them to get bigger and bigger and bigger. get bigger and bigger and bigger. get bigger and bigger and bigger. They're typically bigger than the males. They're typically bigger than the males. They're typically bigger than the males. The males The males The males don't need to be much bigger. don't need to be much bigger. don't need to be much bigger. >> need that much room for sperm. >> need that much room for sperm. >> need that much room for sperm. >> Uh yeah, exactly. Yeah. So, so the um >> Uh yeah, exactly. Yeah. So, so the um >> Uh yeah, exactly. Yeah. So, so the um gamete size difference, sperm are bigger gamete size difference, sperm are bigger gamete size difference, sperm are bigger than eggs, is reflected in the than eggs, is reflected in the than eggs, is reflected in the physiology of the species. physiology of the species. physiology of the species. >> so [ __ ] cool. That's so cool. >> so [ __ ] cool. That's so cool. >> so [ __ ] cool. That's so cool. >> we're the weirdos. We're so used to >> we're the weirdos. We're so used to >> we're the weirdos. We're so used to males being bigger than females, but males being bigger than females, but males being bigger than females, but actually mammals and other large actually mammals and other large actually mammals and other large vertebrates we're the exception to the vertebrates we're the exception to the vertebrates we're the exception to the rule. And the main reason for it is that rule. And the main reason for it is that rule. And the main reason for it is that um um um you still have the selection pressure on you still have the selection pressure on you still have the selection pressure on the females for producing more eggs. So, the females for producing more eggs. So, the females for producing more eggs. So, you know, they got certain size you know, they got certain size you know, they got certain size sort of push for them to be bigger. They sort of push for them to be bigger. They sort of push for them to be bigger. They got an even stronger push on the males got an even stronger push on the males got an even stronger push on the males to be bigger as a result of intersexual to be bigger as a result of intersexual to be bigger as a result of intersexual selection which is selection for the selection which is selection for the selection which is selection for the ability to be able to beat each other up ability to be able to beat each other up ability to be able to beat each other up basically. So, a lot of species bigger basically. So, a lot of species bigger basically. So, a lot of species bigger males do better in in fighting than than males do better in in fighting than than males do better in in fighting than than smaller ones. Males get bigger than the smaller ones. Males get bigger than the smaller ones. Males get bigger than the males get bigger and sometimes they get males get bigger and sometimes they get males get bigger and sometimes they get even bigger than the females. even bigger than the females. even bigger than the females. >> All right, meat and potatoes. Getting >> All right, meat and potatoes. Getting >> All right, meat and potatoes. Getting back to sex differences in sex drive. back to sex differences in sex drive. back to sex differences in sex drive. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> What casual sex, sexual variety, >> What casual sex, sexual variety, >> What casual sex, sexual variety, cheating, what's going on there? cheating, what's going on there? cheating, what's going on there? >> Yeah. That's all about producing more >> Yeah. That's all about producing more >> Yeah. That's all about producing more offspring. So, offspring. So, offspring. So, um um um a male that is equipped with those a male that is equipped with those a male that is equipped with those motivations is going to be sort of like motivations is going to be sort of like motivations is going to be sort of like a heat-seeking missile going out to seek a heat-seeking missile going out to seek a heat-seeking missile going out to seek multiple multiple multiple partners partners partners and is therefore more likely to have and is therefore more likely to have and is therefore more likely to have um um um more offspring. If if he's successful more offspring. If if he's successful more offspring. If if he's successful than that, then he would if he just sort than that, then he would if he just sort than that, then he would if he just sort of sat back and wasn't wasn't interested of sat back and wasn't wasn't interested of sat back and wasn't wasn't interested in multiple partners. in multiple partners. in multiple partners. >> Right. >> Right. >> Right. >> And and you do find that in many >> And and you do find that in many >> And and you do find that in many species. Now, I don't think that the species. Now, I don't think that the species. Now, I don't think that the difference is as big in our species as difference is as big in our species as difference is as big in our species as in many others and I think that's a side in many others and I think that's a side in many others and I think that's a side effect of the fact that because we have effect of the fact that because we have effect of the fact that because we have biparental care biparental care biparental care the level of reproductive variance among the level of reproductive variance among the level of reproductive variance among males in our species is somewhat males in our species is somewhat males in our species is somewhat constrained. Still greater than among constrained. Still greater than among constrained. Still greater than among females, but because it's somewhat females, but because it's somewhat females, but because it's somewhat constrained, sex differences in our constrained, sex differences in our constrained, sex differences in our species have correspondingly come down species have correspondingly come down species have correspondingly come down as well. as well. as well. >> Mhm. >> Mhm. >> Mhm. >> So, we still have all the traditional >> So, we still have all the traditional >> So, we still have all the traditional sex differences that you find in in most sex differences that you find in in most sex differences that you find in in most mammals and many other species, but mammals and many other species, but mammals and many other species, but they're somewhat muted. So, you have the they're somewhat muted. So, you have the they're somewhat muted. So, you have the the sexuality sex differences, the sexuality sex differences, the sexuality sex differences, but they're somewhat muted. The but they're somewhat muted. The but they're somewhat muted. The aggression differences, but they're aggression differences, but they're aggression differences, but they're somewhat muted. somewhat muted. somewhat muted. Um Um Um Uh uh parenting differences is the main Uh uh parenting differences is the main Uh uh parenting differences is the main source of this. So, that, you know, is source of this. So, that, you know, is source of this. So, that, you know, is like uh the discrepancy in male like uh the discrepancy in male like uh the discrepancy in male investment in kids versus female investment in kids versus female investment in kids versus female investment has been massively reduced. investment has been massively reduced. investment has been massively reduced. >> And that's the driver. >> And that's the driver. >> And that's the driver. >> And that's the That's the driver of all >> And that's the That's the driver of all >> And that's the That's the driver of all of of of >> The biparental investment is the nerfing >> The biparental investment is the nerfing >> The biparental investment is the nerfing the reason for the nerfing of all of the the reason for the nerfing of all of the the reason for the nerfing of all of the others. Okay. Again, I I'm only going to others. Okay. Again, I I'm only going to others. Okay. Again, I I'm only going to make this [ __ ] disclaimer once. Uh make this [ __ ] disclaimer once. Uh make this [ __ ] disclaimer once. Uh but we said it we said it previously, but we said it we said it previously, but we said it we said it previously, but I think it's worth saying again. but I think it's worth saying again. but I think it's worth saying again. Just because we can explain using Just because we can explain using Just because we can explain using evolutionary logic the reason why men evolutionary logic the reason why men evolutionary logic the reason why men might be driven to cheat more than women might be driven to cheat more than women might be driven to cheat more than women is not the same thing as excusing why it is not the same thing as excusing why it is not the same thing as excusing why it happens. happens. happens. >> No, not at all. Anymore than um a >> No, not at all. Anymore than um a >> No, not at all. Anymore than um a sociocultural explanation would excuse sociocultural explanation would excuse sociocultural explanation would excuse it. it. it. That's a funny asymmetry. People seem to That's a funny asymmetry. People seem to That's a funny asymmetry. People seem to think if you explain it in evolutionary think if you explain it in evolutionary think if you explain it in evolutionary terms, that excuses it. terms, that excuses it. terms, that excuses it. But there's no more reason to assume But there's no more reason to assume But there's no more reason to assume that than to assume that if you explain that than to assume that if you explain that than to assume that if you explain it in sociocultural terms, it excuses it in sociocultural terms, it excuses it in sociocultural terms, it excuses it. it. it. >> of those, you are um outsourcing the >> of those, you are um outsourcing the >> of those, you are um outsourcing the culpability of the individual to culpability of the individual to culpability of the individual to something else. In one, it's it's something else. In one, it's it's something else. In one, it's it's evolution and ancestors, and in the evolution and ancestors, and in the evolution and ancestors, and in the other, it's culture and influence. other, it's culture and influence. other, it's culture and influence. >> Yeah, exactly. And all our behavior must >> Yeah, exactly. And all our behavior must >> Yeah, exactly. And all our behavior must have causes, right? So, if we're going have causes, right? So, if we're going have causes, right? So, if we're going to say that if we can identify the cause to say that if we can identify the cause to say that if we can identify the cause of a behavior, and it's an evolutionary of a behavior, and it's an evolutionary of a behavior, and it's an evolutionary cause, we're going to have to um cause, we're going to have to um cause, we're going to have to um not hold people to blame. We're going to not hold people to blame. We're going to not hold people to blame. We're going to have to say that for any cause. And have to say that for any cause. And have to say that for any cause. And we're going to have to say that for all we're going to have to say that for all we're going to have to say that for all behaviors, because all behaviors have behaviors, because all behaviors have behaviors, because all behaviors have some kind of cause, whether or not we some kind of cause, whether or not we some kind of cause, whether or not we know what it is. They have some kind of know what it is. They have some kind of know what it is. They have some kind of >> Whether it's evolutionary or cultural. >> Whether it's evolutionary or cultural. >> Whether it's evolutionary or cultural. >> Or or most likely a combination of both. >> Or or most likely a combination of both. >> Or or most likely a combination of both. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah, yeah. >> Yeah, yeah. >> Yeah, yeah. >> that basically we the institution of >> that basically we the institution of >> that basically we the institution of holding people responsible we have to holding people responsible we have to holding people responsible we have to keep that institution cuz it's useful, keep that institution cuz it's useful, keep that institution cuz it's useful, regardless of the fact that of course regardless of the fact that of course regardless of the fact that of course people's behavior has causes, and it's people's behavior has causes, and it's people's behavior has causes, and it's not inexplicable. not inexplicable. not inexplicable. >> That's so good. Uh Ashley Madison, the >> That's so good. Uh Ashley Madison, the >> That's so good. Uh Ashley Madison, the cheating website, had 20 million active cheating website, had 20 million active cheating website, had 20 million active male users. male users. male users. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> And 1,492 >> And 1,492 >> And 1,492 active female users, despite women active female users, despite women active female users, despite women getting free lifetime membership and men getting free lifetime membership and men getting free lifetime membership and men having to pay. having to pay. having to pay. >> Yeah, that's wild, right? That's a >> Yeah, that's wild, right? That's a >> Yeah, that's wild, right? That's a massive difference. massive difference. massive difference. >> 20 million >> 20 million >> 20 million 2,500. 2,500. 2,500. >> It's probably similar to that ratio we >> It's probably similar to that ratio we >> It's probably similar to that ratio we had up before that had up before that had up before that >> It's probably it's almost exactly the >> It's probably it's almost exactly the >> It's probably it's almost exactly the same, yeah. same, yeah. same, yeah. >> Yeah. Um, what about men being more >> Yeah. Um, what about men being more >> Yeah. Um, what about men being more turned on by visual triggers? turned on by visual triggers? turned on by visual triggers? >> Uh, yeah, that's another another big sex >> Uh, yeah, that's another another big sex >> Uh, yeah, that's another another big sex difference. Um, difference. Um, difference. Um, both sexes both sexes both sexes are to some degree, you know, both sexes are to some degree, you know, both sexes are to some degree, you know, both sexes are interested in good looks in a mate, are interested in good looks in a mate, are interested in good looks in a mate, but it's stronger in men than in women. but it's stronger in men than in women. but it's stronger in men than in women. And the main reason for that is that the And the main reason for that is that the And the main reason for that is that the traits that we consider good looking are traits that we consider good looking are traits that we consider good looking are associated with with youthfulness and associated with with youthfulness and associated with with youthfulness and fertility fertility fertility for both sexes. Um, but men place a for both sexes. Um, but men place a for both sexes. Um, but men place a greater weight on those traits because greater weight on those traits because greater weight on those traits because because of menopause, basically. So, the because of menopause, basically. So, the because of menopause, basically. So, the fact that um, that they place more fact that um, that they place more fact that um, that they place more weight on youthfulness in a mate because weight on youthfulness in a mate because weight on youthfulness in a mate because youthfulness is more closely linked to youthfulness is more closely linked to youthfulness is more closely linked to fertility in women than men because of fertility in women than men because of fertility in women than men because of the fact that women's fertility shuts the fact that women's fertility shuts the fact that women's fertility shuts off about you know, two-thirds of the of off about you know, two-thirds of the of off about you know, two-thirds of the of the way through the lifespan. the way through the lifespan. the way through the lifespan. >> Mhm. >> Mhm. >> Mhm. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. So, yeah. So, men are much more So, yeah. So, men are much more So, yeah. So, men are much more interested in visual sexual stimuli, as interested in visual sexual stimuli, as interested in visual sexual stimuli, as psychologists call it. It's part of the psychologists call it. It's part of the psychologists call it. It's part of the explanation for the fact that um, explanation for the fact that um, explanation for the fact that um, men are much more avid consumers of porn men are much more avid consumers of porn men are much more avid consumers of porn than women are. than women are. than women are. >> What is the reason that women are much >> What is the reason that women are much >> What is the reason that women are much more avid consumers of romanticy and more avid consumers of romanticy and more avid consumers of romanticy and romance novels than men? romance novels than men? romance novels than men? >> It's it's an interesting one, isn't it? >> It's it's an interesting one, isn't it? >> It's it's an interesting one, isn't it? So, that's the the standard sort of So, that's the the standard sort of So, that's the the standard sort of differences in consumer preferences that differences in consumer preferences that differences in consumer preferences that we hear about. Men are much more into we hear about. Men are much more into we hear about. Men are much more into porn than women. Women are much more porn than women. Women are much more porn than women. Women are much more into romance novels. Um, into romance novels. Um, into romance novels. Um, now now now Now, it is interesting. We've talked Now, it is interesting. We've talked Now, it is interesting. We've talked about the fact that about the fact that about the fact that men on average are more interested in men on average are more interested in men on average are more interested in casual sex than women. casual sex than women. casual sex than women. And people often assume that the flip And people often assume that the flip And people often assume that the flip side of that is true as well, that women side of that is true as well, that women side of that is true as well, that women are more interested in long-term are more interested in long-term are more interested in long-term relationships than men. relationships than men. relationships than men. But actually, that's not the case. Uh, But actually, that's not the case. Uh, But actually, that's not the case. Uh, typically what we find is that men and typically what we find is that men and typically what we find is that men and women are about as interested as as each women are about as interested as as each women are about as interested as as each other in long-term committed other in long-term committed other in long-term committed relationships, in falling in love, in relationships, in falling in love, in relationships, in falling in love, in forming a committed bond with with a forming a committed bond with with a forming a committed bond with with a partner. partner. partner. >> So, you haven't reapportioned >> So, you haven't reapportioned >> So, you haven't reapportioned the sex drive relationship drive desire the sex drive relationship drive desire the sex drive relationship drive desire from short-term to long-term for women. from short-term to long-term for women. from short-term to long-term for women. It's just that they don't have this It's just that they don't have this It's just that they don't have this addition that men do of the one-night addition that men do of the one-night addition that men do of the one-night stand. stand. stand. >> Exactly right. But bearing that in mind >> Exactly right. But bearing that in mind >> Exactly right. But bearing that in mind Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Bearing that in mind Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Bearing that in mind Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Bearing that in mind the the fact that women are so much more the the fact that women are so much more the the fact that women are so much more interested in romance novels interested in romance novels interested in romance novels is interesting is interesting is interesting and sort of slightly unexpected. You you and sort of slightly unexpected. You you and sort of slightly unexpected. You you might expect that both sexes would be might expect that both sexes would be might expect that both sexes would be interested in them. interested in them. interested in them. So so why is the case that women are So so why is the case that women are So so why is the case that women are more interested in them? I guess more interested in them? I guess more interested in them? I guess evolutionary speaking I don't know. They evolutionary speaking I don't know. They evolutionary speaking I don't know. They they do seem to be despite the fact that they do seem to be despite the fact that they do seem to be despite the fact that actually men do seem to be very invested actually men do seem to be very invested actually men do seem to be very invested in long term relationships. A bunch of in long term relationships. A bunch of in long term relationships. A bunch of papers have come out recently actually papers have come out recently actually papers have come out recently actually saying that in in a lot of ways men are saying that in in a lot of ways men are saying that in in a lot of ways men are kind of more more romantic than women. kind of more more romantic than women. kind of more more romantic than women. They are more likely to suffer after a They are more likely to suffer after a They are more likely to suffer after a breakup. breakup. breakup. They fall in love more quickly. They say They fall in love more quickly. They say They fall in love more quickly. They say I love you more soon. Exactly. Exactly. I love you more soon. Exactly. Exactly. I love you more soon. Exactly. Exactly. So why aren't they more into romance So why aren't they more into romance So why aren't they more into romance novels? I don't know. Maybe they're just novels? I don't know. Maybe they're just novels? I don't know. Maybe they're just too busy with the with the porn. But too busy with the with the porn. But too busy with the with the porn. But >> I >> I >> I true. true. true. Dude, I mean I sat next to a lady, Dude, I mean I sat next to a lady, Dude, I mean I sat next to a lady, lovely lady, floral dress, slightly lovely lady, floral dress, slightly lovely lady, floral dress, slightly slightly older lady on a flight a few slightly older lady on a flight a few slightly older lady on a flight a few months ago and she had a iPad up resting months ago and she had a iPad up resting months ago and she had a iPad up resting it and it was a big it and it was a big it and it was a big big [ __ ] off font and she was reading big [ __ ] off font and she was reading big [ __ ] off font and she was reading some some some romancy thing and she was getting to the romancy thing and she was getting to the romancy thing and she was getting to the good stuff. good stuff. good stuff. And And And I mean I couldn't I was like we have I mean I couldn't I was like we have I mean I couldn't I was like we have legalized we have legalized women legalized we have legalized women legalized we have legalized women reading porn in public and it's not I reading porn in public and it's not I reading porn in public and it's not I mean I mean I mean I it was she was having a she seemed to be it was she was having a she seemed to be it was she was having a she seemed to be having a wonderful flight and I got my having a wonderful flight and I got my having a wonderful flight and I got my When someone sits next to me and they've When someone sits next to me and they've When someone sits next to me and they've got an iPad I think oh that's that's got an iPad I think oh that's that's got an iPad I think oh that's that's great cuz it's going to or whatever the great cuz it's going to or whatever the great cuz it's going to or whatever the Kindle or something it's going to Kindle or something it's going to Kindle or something it's going to influence me to be not be a degenerate. influence me to be not be a degenerate. influence me to be not be a degenerate. All I wanted to do was put a pair of All I wanted to do was put a pair of All I wanted to do was put a pair of blinkers on. [laughter] blinkers on. [laughter] blinkers on. [laughter] Focus on some brain slop stuff. Focus on some brain slop stuff. Focus on some brain slop stuff. >> I've never I've never I've been meaning >> I've never I've never I've been meaning >> I've never I've never I've been meaning for ages as a sort of anthropological for ages as a sort of anthropological for ages as a sort of anthropological study to read study to read study to read >> you want dude. Excuse it however you >> you want dude. Excuse it however you >> you want dude. Excuse it however you want. want. want. >> I haven't got round to doing it. I'm >> I haven't got round to doing it. I'm >> I haven't got round to doing it. I'm going to do it. I'm going to read a going to do it. I'm going to read a going to do it. I'm going to read a romance novel at some point. I have romance novel at some point. I have romance novel at some point. I have heard that the general theme is heard that the general theme is heard that the general theme is boy meets girl. boy meets girl. boy meets girl. Boy is a bit of an [ __ ] Boy is a bit of an [ __ ] Boy is a bit of an [ __ ] Girl tames boy and then they live Girl tames boy and then they live Girl tames boy and then they live happily ever after. And they do involve happily ever after. And they do involve happily ever after. And they do involve sex, right? sex, right? sex, right? >> Well yeah, I mean, there is some sex in >> Well yeah, I mean, there is some sex in >> Well yeah, I mean, there is some sex in them. At least there was in hers. them. At least there was in hers. them. At least there was in hers. >> And the one that she was reading. >> And the one that she was reading. >> And the one that she was reading. >> Yeah, exactly. Um I mean, there's some >> Yeah, exactly. Um I mean, there's some >> Yeah, exactly. Um I mean, there's some interesting stuff, right? The number of interesting stuff, right? The number of interesting stuff, right? The number of uh if you have a single a sexual fantasy uh if you have a single a sexual fantasy uh if you have a single a sexual fantasy mental sexual fantasy, men will cycle mental sexual fantasy, men will cycle mental sexual fantasy, men will cycle through, I think it's between four and through, I think it's between four and through, I think it's between four and six different partners on average during six different partners on average during six different partners on average during the the the >> and six or 46? >> and six or 46? >> and six or 46? >> Four and six, I think, but it depends >> Four and six, I think, but it depends >> Four and six, I think, but it depends who you are. Yeah. Um whereas for women, who you are. Yeah. Um whereas for women, who you are. Yeah. Um whereas for women, they tend to have fewer or maybe maybe they tend to have fewer or maybe maybe they tend to have fewer or maybe maybe just one. Now, just one. Now, just one. Now, I don't know, but I'm going to guess I don't know, but I'm going to guess I don't know, but I'm going to guess that this would be reflected in romance that this would be reflected in romance that this would be reflected in romance novels. Uh in fact, I know that this is novels. Uh in fact, I know that this is novels. Uh in fact, I know that this is the case because I've been on the cover the case because I've been on the cover the case because I've been on the cover of a bunch of them. And of a bunch of them. And of a bunch of them. And during those novels, at least mo- I during those novels, at least mo- I during those novels, at least mo- I would say on average most would say on average most would say on average most >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> the women >> the women >> the women who are the protagonists aren't cycling who are the protagonists aren't cycling who are the protagonists aren't cycling through multiple male suitors. through multiple male suitors. through multiple male suitors. And if they are, even if you look at And if they are, even if you look at And if they are, even if you look at movies, movies like The Notebook or movies, movies like The Notebook or movies, movies like The Notebook or Titanic or whatever, Titanic or whatever, Titanic or whatever, >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> it tends to be a a pivot between two >> it tends to be a a pivot between two >> it tends to be a a pivot between two different life directions. different life directions. different life directions. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Um it's not a kind of >> Um it's not a kind of >> Um it's not a kind of ruthless conveyor belt that is closer to ruthless conveyor belt that is closer to ruthless conveyor belt that is closer to sort of the the typical male fantasy. Uh sort of the the typical male fantasy. Uh sort of the the typical male fantasy. Uh but yeah, the the men being more turned but yeah, the the men being more turned but yeah, the the men being more turned on by visual triggers thing, I think on by visual triggers thing, I think on by visual triggers thing, I think make makes makes an awful lot of sense. make makes makes an awful lot of sense. make makes makes an awful lot of sense. I remember in uh Bad Men, Buss's book, I remember in uh Bad Men, Buss's book, I remember in uh Bad Men, Buss's book, he talks about how there is an area of he talks about how there is an area of he talks about how there is an area of the brain that exists in men that lights the brain that exists in men that lights the brain that exists in men that lights up when they just see something that's up when they just see something that's up when they just see something that's remotely sexual. A a remotely sexual. A a remotely sexual. A a pair of rocks that look like boobs. pair of rocks that look like boobs. pair of rocks that look like boobs. >> Putting a coin into a vending machine. >> Putting a coin into a vending machine. >> Putting a coin into a vending machine. >> Putting a coin into a vending machine. >> Putting a coin into a vending machine. >> Putting a coin into a vending machine. You're [ __ ] kidding me. You're [ __ ] kidding me. You're [ __ ] kidding me. >> Oh, that was a joke. I'm not sure >> Oh, that was a joke. I'm not sure >> Oh, that was a joke. I'm not sure there's actually research on that. But there's actually research on that. But there's actually research on that. But that kind of thing wouldn't surprise me. that kind of thing wouldn't surprise me. that kind of thing wouldn't surprise me. >> No, no, likewise. >> No, no, likewise. >> No, no, likewise. >> There is something penetrative about >> There is something penetrative about >> There is something penetrative about gambling. And it was on top of the gambling. And it was on top of the gambling. And it was on top of the risk-taking on top risk-taking on top risk-taking on top >> [snorts] >> [snorts] >> [snorts] >> That's it. Um overperception bias as >> That's it. Um overperception bias as >> That's it. Um overperception bias as well. Another well. Another well. Another great example that I learned from uh Bad great example that I learned from uh Bad great example that I learned from uh Bad Men by David. Men by David. Men by David. >> Yeah, yeah, and that's um uh research by >> Yeah, yeah, and that's um uh research by >> Yeah, yeah, and that's um uh research by him and and spearheaded by uh his former him and and spearheaded by uh his former him and and spearheaded by uh his former student Martie Haselton. Yeah, the student Martie Haselton. Yeah, the student Martie Haselton. Yeah, the sexual overperception bias. sexual overperception bias. sexual overperception bias. Yeah, that refers to the fact that, uh, Yeah, that refers to the fact that, uh, Yeah, that refers to the fact that, uh, men are more likely to men are more likely to men are more likely to infer sexual interest on the part of a infer sexual interest on the part of a infer sexual interest on the part of a woman woman woman falsely. falsely. falsely. Like like falsely infer it than women Like like falsely infer it than women Like like falsely infer it than women are on the in the case of men. That's so are on the in the case of men. That's so are on the in the case of men. That's so they're more likely to think, "Yeah, they're more likely to think, "Yeah, they're more likely to think, "Yeah, she's into me." When actually they're she's into me." When actually they're she's into me." When actually they're just, uh, in a little dream world, and just, uh, in a little dream world, and just, uh, in a little dream world, and that's not actually true. that's not actually true. that's not actually true. >> Men are more likely to think that women >> Men are more likely to think that women >> Men are more likely to think that women are interested in them than they are, are interested in them than they are, are interested in them than they are, and women are more likely to think that and women are more likely to think that and women are more likely to think that men aren't interested in them when they men aren't interested in them when they men aren't interested in them when they are. And I think that the data shows are. And I think that the data shows are. And I think that the data shows the level of attraction that men assume the level of attraction that men assume the level of attraction that men assume a woman has toward them is roughly equal a woman has toward them is roughly equal a woman has toward them is roughly equal to the amount of attraction that the man to the amount of attraction that the man to the amount of attraction that the man has toward the woman. has toward the woman. has toward the woman. >> Right. Right. Yes. Right. Yeah. Exactly. >> Right. Right. Yes. Right. Yeah. Exactly. >> Right. Right. Yes. Right. Yeah. Exactly. So, it seems to be maybe some kind of, So, it seems to be maybe some kind of, So, it seems to be maybe some kind of, uh, projecting yourself into the world uh, projecting yourself into the world uh, projecting yourself into the world kind of bias. kind of bias. kind of bias. >> Yeah. So, it's a failure of cross-sex >> Yeah. So, it's a failure of cross-sex >> Yeah. So, it's a failure of cross-sex mind reading, but it's also specifically mind reading, but it's also specifically mind reading, but it's also specifically in a in an overperception bias here, in a in an overperception bias here, in a in an overperception bias here, too. And this is smoke detector too. And this is smoke detector too. And this is smoke detector principle. If you as a man had the principle. If you as a man had the principle. If you as a man had the opportunity to potentially bag an opportunity to potentially bag an opportunity to potentially bag an available and attractive woman, and available and attractive woman, and available and attractive woman, and because you weren't sufficiently because you weren't sufficiently because you weren't sufficiently vigilant in detecting it, because you vigilant in detecting it, because you vigilant in detecting it, because you underplayed your potential success underplayed your potential success underplayed your potential success likelihood as opposed to overplayed it, likelihood as opposed to overplayed it, likelihood as opposed to overplayed it, >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> you are going to have an error of >> you are going to have an error of >> you are going to have an error of missing the opportunity as opposed to missing the opportunity as opposed to missing the opportunity as opposed to the error of an awkward and clumsy the error of an awkward and clumsy the error of an awkward and clumsy rejection. rejection. rejection. >> Exactly. >> Exactly. >> Exactly. >> And this, again, I [ __ ] I'm just going >> And this, again, I [ __ ] I'm just going >> And this, again, I [ __ ] I'm just going to have to keep saying it, to have to keep saying it, to have to keep saying it, does not excuse guys in the workplace does not excuse guys in the workplace does not excuse guys in the workplace with the receptionist in the printing with the receptionist in the printing with the receptionist in the printing room having an awkward fumble that she room having an awkward fumble that she room having an awkward fumble that she absolutely didn't give off signals for. absolutely didn't give off signals for. absolutely didn't give off signals for. >> Right. >> Right. >> Right. >> However, >> However, >> However, >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> this does explain how you get to that >> this does explain how you get to that >> this does explain how you get to that situation, or why it is that on average situation, or why it is that on average situation, or why it is that on average men seem to be, unless you're the CEO of men seem to be, unless you're the CEO of men seem to be, unless you're the CEO of Who is it? Procter & Gamble? Who is the Who is it? Procter & Gamble? Who is the Who is it? Procter & Gamble? Who is the one that that Indian dude made the whole one that that Indian dude made the whole one that that Indian dude made the whole [ __ ] um, uh, conspiracy theory about? [ __ ] um, uh, conspiracy theory about? [ __ ] um, uh, conspiracy theory about? It went insanely viral. I bet your It went insanely viral. I bet your It went insanely viral. I bet your fish-head Asian wife doesn't have these fish-head Asian wife doesn't have these fish-head Asian wife doesn't have these cannons. Do you remember that? cannons. Do you remember that? cannons. Do you remember that? >> Goldman >> Goldman >> Goldman >> Goldman Sachs. >> Goldman Sachs. >> Goldman Sachs. >> Right. >> Right. >> Right. >> Goldman Sachs. Yasmin's mom works at >> Goldman Sachs. Yasmin's mom works at >> Goldman Sachs. Yasmin's mom works at Goldman. We should get the inside scoop. Goldman. We should get the inside scoop. Goldman. We should get the inside scoop. Um Um Um Uh Uh Uh Yeah, my get my guest book his mom is Yeah, my get my guest book his mom is Yeah, my get my guest book his mom is like real real high up at uh at Goldman like real real high up at uh at Goldman like real real high up at uh at Goldman Sachs. And then there was that huge Did Sachs. And then there was that huge Did Sachs. And then there was that huge Did you see this thing kick off a couple of you see this thing kick off a couple of you see this thing kick off a couple of months ago? months ago? months ago? >> I don't >> I don't >> I don't >> or two ago or so. Uh it just It was a a >> or two ago or so. Uh it just It was a a >> or two ago or so. Uh it just It was a a guy me tooing a very very high up um guy me tooing a very very high up um guy me tooing a very very high up um >> Right. Okay. >> Right. Okay. >> Right. Okay. >> Exact. >> Exact. >> Exact. >> Yeah, a bit of a role reversal. >> Yeah, a bit of a role reversal. >> Yeah, a bit of a role reversal. >> at Goldman. But as soon as the proposed >> at Goldman. But as soon as the proposed >> at Goldman. But as soon as the proposed accusations came out, there was no accusations came out, there was no accusations came out, there was no >> I was >> I was >> I was >> rare. It was like the most It would have >> rare. It was like the most It would have >> rare. It was like the most It would have been incredibly extreme been incredibly extreme been incredibly extreme >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> for a guy to do. >> for a guy to do. >> for a guy to do. >> Yeah, yeah, yeah. >> Yeah, yeah, yeah. >> Yeah, yeah, yeah. >> And the fact that everybody intuited >> And the fact that everybody intuited >> And the fact that everybody intuited like, "Really?" like, "Really?" like, "Really?" >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Sex differences. >> Sex differences. >> Sex differences. >> Yeah. Yeah, yeah. >> Yeah. Yeah, yeah. >> Yeah. Yeah, yeah. >> All right, how do um how do gay men and >> All right, how do um how do gay men and >> All right, how do um how do gay men and lesbians reveal what each sex wants? lesbians reveal what each sex wants? lesbians reveal what each sex wants? >> They do so in a very interesting way, >> They do so in a very interesting way, >> They do so in a very interesting way, which is that um which is that um which is that um gay men have more casual sex than gay men have more casual sex than gay men have more casual sex than straight men, and lesbians have less straight men, and lesbians have less straight men, and lesbians have less casual sex than straight women. casual sex than straight women. casual sex than straight women. Uh and the reason is that gay men and Uh and the reason is that gay men and Uh and the reason is that gay men and lesbians don't have to compromise with lesbians don't have to compromise with lesbians don't have to compromise with the typical sexual inclinations of the the typical sexual inclinations of the the typical sexual inclinations of the other sex. other sex. other sex. >> Mhm. >> Mhm. >> Mhm. >> And they can there- therefore their >> And they can there- therefore their >> And they can there- therefore their behavior is a like a clearer window onto behavior is a like a clearer window onto behavior is a like a clearer window onto the the sexual motivations of men and the the sexual motivations of men and the the sexual motivations of men and women in general. women in general. women in general. >> Unsullied by the other sex. >> Unsullied by the other sex. >> Unsullied by the other sex. >> Ex- exactly. Yeah. So, men are >> Ex- exactly. Yeah. So, men are >> Ex- exactly. Yeah. So, men are compromising by having less cuz compromising by having less cuz compromising by having less cuz basically women are thwarting their basically women are thwarting their basically women are thwarting their plans. plans. plans. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Whereas >> Whereas >> Whereas >> gatekeeper. >> gatekeeper. >> gatekeeper. >> Ex- exactly. And uh yeah, whereas >> Ex- exactly. And uh yeah, whereas >> Ex- exactly. And uh yeah, whereas straight women are compromising with men straight women are compromising with men straight women are compromising with men and they'll be having more than more uh and they'll be having more than more uh and they'll be having more than more uh casual sex than they would choose, casual sex than they would choose, casual sex than they would choose, uh at least as revealed by yeah, lesbian uh at least as revealed by yeah, lesbian uh at least as revealed by yeah, lesbian behavior. behavior. behavior. >> There's a an interesting study that Rob >> There's a an interesting study that Rob >> There's a an interesting study that Rob brought up, which was brought up, which was brought up, which was uh inside of marriages uh inside of marriages uh inside of marriages typically men say that they would like typically men say that they would like typically men say that they would like to have twice as much sex as they are to have twice as much sex as they are to have twice as much sex as they are having, and women say that they are having, and women say that they are having, and women say that they are happy with the amount of sex that they happy with the amount of sex that they happy with the amount of sex that they are having, which suggests that there is are having, which suggests that there is are having, which suggests that there is a compromise going on. a compromise going on. a compromise going on. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Uh but that the compromise >> Uh but that the compromise >> Uh but that the compromise >> The guy going, "Okay, fine." And she's >> The guy going, "Okay, fine." And she's >> The guy going, "Okay, fine." And she's setting she's setting the level setting she's setting the level setting she's setting the level >> more than he is. >> more than he is. >> more than he is. Uh I do think that there's kind of a Uh I do think that there's kind of a Uh I do think that there's kind of a And this is And this is And this is I mean, like, are we really going to I mean, like, are we really going to I mean, like, are we really going to say boo-hoo poor men not getting exactly say boo-hoo poor men not getting exactly say boo-hoo poor men not getting exactly what they want? But I do think that it's what they want? But I do think that it's what they want? But I do think that it's a a kind of compromise that might be a a kind of compromise that might be a a kind of compromise that might be invisible to women because sexual invisible to women because sexual invisible to women because sexual entitlement comes wrapped in some really entitlement comes wrapped in some really entitlement comes wrapped in some really ugly ugly ugly uh paper. uh paper. uh paper. But there is an argument that you can But there is an argument that you can But there is an argument that you can make there to say something like, "Look, make there to say something like, "Look, make there to say something like, "Look, men are men are men are doing a type of containment, a type of doing a type of containment, a type of doing a type of containment, a type of desire containment there that isn't a desire containment there that isn't a desire containment there that isn't a burden that is burden that is burden that is >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> that they are paying that isn't being >> that they are paying that isn't being >> that they are paying that isn't being paid in the same way inside of a paid in the same way inside of a paid in the same way inside of a marriage by the women. And huh, that's marriage by the women. And huh, that's marriage by the women. And huh, that's we Well done. Well done for doing that we Well done. Well done for doing that we Well done. Well done for doing that for for compromising what it is that you for for compromising what it is that you for for compromising what it is that you want." want." want." >> Yeah, indeed. And I guess >> Yeah, indeed. And I guess >> Yeah, indeed. And I guess uh uh uh >> [gasps] >> [gasps] >> [gasps] >> I guess it's more it's more I guess that >> I guess it's more it's more I guess that >> I guess it's more it's more I guess that um men are doing that more often. Like um men are doing that more often. Like um men are doing that more often. Like like some women are doing the same like some women are doing the same like some women are doing the same thing, no doubt, but it's just fewer thing, no doubt, but it's just fewer thing, no doubt, but it's just fewer women than than men in that situation. women than than men in that situation. women than than men in that situation. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. Uh Uh Uh there's also more dead bedroom in there's also more dead bedroom in there's also more dead bedroom in lesbian relationships. lesbian relationships. lesbian relationships. >> I've heard that, yeah. There's what is >> I've heard that, yeah. There's what is >> I've heard that, yeah. There's what is the um there's some some phrase like the um there's some some phrase like the um there's some some phrase like that, isn't there? The there's been dead that, isn't there? The there's been dead that, isn't there? The there's been dead bed or something. Yeah, yeah. bed or something. Yeah, yeah. bed or something. Yeah, yeah. >> Okay, so >> Okay, so >> Okay, so mate preferences mate preferences mate preferences >> Yes. >> Yes. >> Yes. >> When it comes to mate preferences >> When it comes to mate preferences >> When it comes to mate preferences is it surprising how similar men and is it surprising how similar men and is it surprising how similar men and women are when it comes to what they women are when it comes to what they women are when it comes to what they look for in a partner? look for in a partner? look for in a partner? >> [sighs] >> [sighs] >> [sighs] >> Uh well, I guess it fits with the >> Uh well, I guess it fits with the >> Uh well, I guess it fits with the generalization that in a lot of ways we generalization that in a lot of ways we generalization that in a lot of ways we are are are quite similar. quite similar. quite similar. That we sex differences in our species That we sex differences in our species That we sex differences in our species are not as huge as as in some others. are not as huge as as in some others. are not as huge as as in some others. And I guess also just on a um everyday And I guess also just on a um everyday And I guess also just on a um everyday level, when when you hear about some of level, when when you hear about some of level, when when you hear about some of the sex differences that we have in the sex differences that we have in the sex differences that we have in common they're all things that I think common they're all things that I think common they're all things that I think it's it's obvious why we like them. it's it's obvious why we like them. it's it's obvious why we like them. Uh people tend to be uh, and women tend Uh people tend to be uh, and women tend Uh people tend to be uh, and women tend to want somebody, uh, to want somebody, uh, to want somebody, uh, who's pretty intelligent and who's kind who's pretty intelligent and who's kind who's pretty intelligent and who's kind and who loves them and who is attracted and who loves them and who is attracted and who loves them and who is attracted to them and who is pretty good looking, to them and who is pretty good looking, to them and who is pretty good looking, uh, and who's not, uh, like, uh, and who's not, uh, like, uh, and who's not, uh, like, mentally unstable. mentally unstable. mentally unstable. >> [snorts] >> [snorts] >> [snorts] >> Uh, both sexes want that, not just men, >> Uh, both sexes want that, not just men, >> Uh, both sexes want that, not just men, not just women. Um, there are some areas not just women. Um, there are some areas not just women. Um, there are some areas though where you do find sex differences though where you do find sex differences though where you do find sex differences in the strength of different in the strength of different in the strength of different preferences. So, both sexes want someone preferences. So, both sexes want someone preferences. So, both sexes want someone who's pretty good looking, for instance, who's pretty good looking, for instance, who's pretty good looking, for instance, um, but on average in long-term um, but on average in long-term um, but on average in long-term relationships, that's a bigger deal for relationships, that's a bigger deal for relationships, that's a bigger deal for men than for women. Uh, men put more men than for women. Uh, men put more men than for women. Uh, men put more weight on looks in a mate, um, weight on looks in a mate, um, weight on looks in a mate, um, than in a long-term mate than than women than in a long-term mate than than women than in a long-term mate than than women do for the reasons that I mentioned that do for the reasons that I mentioned that do for the reasons that I mentioned that I mentioned earlier. I mentioned earlier. I mentioned earlier. Uh, women on the other hand Uh, women on the other hand Uh, women on the other hand tend to put more weight on resources and tend to put more weight on resources and tend to put more weight on resources and status in a long-term mate, uh, status in a long-term mate, uh, status in a long-term mate, uh, than men do. than men do. than men do. Um, now now in neither of those cases is Um, now now in neither of those cases is Um, now now in neither of those cases is that the it's not like looks are the that the it's not like looks are the that the it's not like looks are the most important thing to most men. To most important thing to most men. To most important thing to most men. To most men, it's it's important, but other most men, it's it's important, but other most men, it's it's important, but other things are equally important or even things are equally important or even things are equally important or even more important. Traits like kindness. more important. Traits like kindness. more important. Traits like kindness. And likewise with women, um, And likewise with women, um, And likewise with women, um, uh, resources and status in a mate, uh, resources and status in a mate, uh, resources and status in a mate, they're they're important, but other they're they're important, but other they're they're important, but other things, like, again, like kindness, uh, things, like, again, like kindness, uh, things, like, again, like kindness, uh, tend to top the list of the things that tend to top the list of the things that tend to top the list of the things that are most important for women. are most important for women. are most important for women. >> Most people don't realize how much being >> Most people don't realize how much being >> Most people don't realize how much being dehydrated impacts their performance, dehydrated impacts their performance, dehydrated impacts their performance, which is why for the last 5 years I've which is why for the last 5 years I've which is why for the last 5 years I've started pretty much every morning with started pretty much every morning with started pretty much every morning with Element. 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What's the evolutionary logic of What's the evolutionary logic of What's the evolutionary logic of non-physical mate preferences like non-physical mate preferences like non-physical mate preferences like wealth and status? wealth and status? wealth and status? >> It all comes down, I think, to the fact >> It all comes down, I think, to the fact >> It all comes down, I think, to the fact Well, there are two main explanations Well, there are two main explanations Well, there are two main explanations for it. So, one is that it's part of our for it. So, one is that it's part of our for it. So, one is that it's part of our evolution and other pair-bonding evolution and other pair-bonding evolution and other pair-bonding biparental species. biparental species. biparental species. So, a guy who is able to access So, a guy who is able to access So, a guy who is able to access resources, you know, resources, you know, resources, you know, bringing food, bringing food, bringing food, and and also has good standing within and and also has good standing within and and also has good standing within the group, that's going to be someone the group, that's going to be someone the group, that's going to be someone who is better able to invest in the who is better able to invest in the who is better able to invest in the young to co-rear the children. young to co-rear the children. young to co-rear the children. And that's the explanation, I think, And that's the explanation, I think, And that's the explanation, I think, most popular and most likely. most popular and most likely. most popular and most likely. There is also an explanation, though, There is also an explanation, though, There is also an explanation, though, that it's primarily that it's primarily that it's primarily a human equivalent to the peacock's a human equivalent to the peacock's a human equivalent to the peacock's tail. tail. tail. So, that any any male that is capable of So, that any any male that is capable of So, that any any male that is capable of bringing in resources and climbing the bringing in resources and climbing the bringing in resources and climbing the status hierarchy, that's a male who's status hierarchy, that's a male who's status hierarchy, that's a male who's got good genes and he's going to pass on got good genes and he's going to pass on got good genes and he's going to pass on whatever traits enabled him to do that whatever traits enabled him to do that whatever traits enabled him to do that to his male offspring. They're going to to his male offspring. They're going to to his male offspring. They're going to be able to do the same. They're going to be able to do the same. They're going to be able to do the same. They're going to attract more mates. attract more mates. attract more mates. So, those are two main explanations. So, those are two main explanations. So, those are two main explanations. I think it's quite possible that both of I think it's quite possible that both of I think it's quite possible that both of them them them shed light on it. That that is both a shed light on it. That that is both a shed light on it. That that is both a a fitness indicator, but also is a fitness indicator, but also is a fitness indicator, but also is actually useful in the context of actually useful in the context of actually useful in the context of biparental care. biparental care. biparental care. >> You mentioned this is to do with >> You mentioned this is to do with >> You mentioned this is to do with long-term relationships. long-term relationships. long-term relationships. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> How does this change when it comes to >> How does this change when it comes to >> How does this change when it comes to short-term relationships? Do women place short-term relationships? Do women place short-term relationships? Do women place more or closer to equal more or closer to equal more or closer to equal uh weight on physical attractiveness in uh weight on physical attractiveness in uh weight on physical attractiveness in men? men? men? >> They do. They do, yeah. So, that sex >> They do. They do, yeah. So, that sex >> They do. They do, yeah. So, that sex difference in good looks, difference in good looks, difference in good looks, we sometimes hear it discussed as if we sometimes hear it discussed as if we sometimes hear it discussed as if that's the difference between men and that's the difference between men and that's the difference between men and women right across the board in every women right across the board in every women right across the board in every context. But, actually does just apply context. But, actually does just apply context. But, actually does just apply to long-term relationships. And when it to long-term relationships. And when it to long-term relationships. And when it comes to low-commitment relationships, comes to low-commitment relationships, comes to low-commitment relationships, um um um then that that difference basically then that that difference basically then that that difference basically evaporates. And women are at least as evaporates. And women are at least as evaporates. And women are at least as interested in physical attractiveness in interested in physical attractiveness in interested in physical attractiveness in a mate as men are. If not, you know, a mate as men are. If not, you know, a mate as men are. If not, you know, some research suggesting maybe even more some research suggesting maybe even more some research suggesting maybe even more interested in physical attractiveness. interested in physical attractiveness. interested in physical attractiveness. >> Why would that be the case using >> Why would that be the case using >> Why would that be the case using evolutionary logic? evolutionary logic? evolutionary logic? >> Because well, the the best explanation >> Because well, the the best explanation >> Because well, the the best explanation is that is that is that in a short-term context, that's likely in a short-term context, that's likely in a short-term context, that's likely to be to be to be um um um uh basically uh basically uh basically there's going to be no further there's going to be no further there's going to be no further investment, probably. investment, probably. investment, probably. >> Huh. >> Huh. >> Huh. >> Uh >> Uh >> Uh likely no further investment. The only likely no further investment. The only likely no further investment. The only investment is the genes that the male is investment is the genes that the male is investment is the genes that the male is going to be passing on. And therefore going to be passing on. And therefore going to be passing on. And therefore traits that are indicative of good genes traits that are indicative of good genes traits that are indicative of good genes are much more important. They they take are much more important. They they take are much more important. They they take center stage in terms of what what women center stage in terms of what what women center stage in terms of what what women are looking for. are looking for. are looking for. >> Mhm. >> Mhm. >> Mhm. >> And um and and yeah, with the the basic >> And um and and yeah, with the the basic >> And um and and yeah, with the the basic evolutionary logic that uh when you're evolutionary logic that uh when you're evolutionary logic that uh when you're reproducing, you are finding somebody to reproducing, you are finding somebody to reproducing, you are finding somebody to mix your genes with. mix your genes with. mix your genes with. >> Mhm. >> Mhm. >> Mhm. >> If you want your genes to go on in the >> If you want your genes to go on in the >> If you want your genes to go on in the gene pool, gene pool, gene pool, uh you got to mix them with uh you got to mix them with uh you got to mix them with a good set of genes from from another a good set of genes from from another a good set of genes from from another individual. individual. individual. >> And what you want, if it's you have a a >> And what you want, if it's you have a a >> And what you want, if it's you have a a short window to do this assessment in, short window to do this assessment in, short window to do this assessment in, you want the most obvious representation you want the most obvious representation you want the most obvious representation of those good genes as you can. of those good genes as you can. of those good genes as you can. >> Exactly. And and physical looks are the >> Exactly. And and physical looks are the >> Exactly. And and physical looks are the are that. are that. are that. >> I'm sorry, your ability to do non-kin >> I'm sorry, your ability to do non-kin >> I'm sorry, your ability to do non-kin altruism and reciprocal care and altruism and reciprocal care and altruism and reciprocal care and kindness and your ambition over time. kindness and your ambition over time. kindness and your ambition over time. It's like, yeah, great, but I don't have It's like, yeah, great, but I don't have It's like, yeah, great, but I don't have time to assess that in the same way time to assess that in the same way time to assess that in the same way >> Yeah, yeah. >> Yeah, yeah. >> Yeah, yeah. >> as I do your status and your resources. >> as I do your status and your resources. >> as I do your status and your resources. I suppose it's another one of the I suppose it's another one of the I suppose it's another one of the reasons. And both men and women if this reasons. And both men and women if this reasons. And both men and women if this sex difference didn't exist, if this sex difference didn't exist, if this sex difference didn't exist, if this preference didn't exist, why would it be preference didn't exist, why would it be preference didn't exist, why would it be the case that both men and women seem to the case that both men and women seem to the case that both men and women seem to play into a caricature of that in an play into a caricature of that in an play into a caricature of that in an attempt to get sexual access? Why is the attempt to get sexual access? Why is the attempt to get sexual access? Why is the caricature of caricature of caricature of dudes in Miami nightclubs wearing a dudes in Miami nightclubs wearing a dudes in Miami nightclubs wearing a Rolex and having a fast car outside? Rolex and having a fast car outside? Rolex and having a fast car outside? Well, that's a way to turn Well, that's a way to turn Well, that's a way to turn wealth, ambition, and status buying a wealth, ambition, and status buying a wealth, ambition, and status buying a VIP booth, status, into an immediately VIP booth, status, into an immediately VIP booth, status, into an immediately transactable and obvious advertisement transactable and obvious advertisement transactable and obvious advertisement in case there is some of this short-term in case there is some of this short-term in case there is some of this short-term mating that's going on. Why is it that mating that's going on. Why is it that mating that's going on. Why is it that women do more beautification when they women do more beautification when they women do more beautification when they go on a night out, etc., etc.? Like go on a night out, etc., etc.? Like go on a night out, etc., etc.? Like because you're playing into even if you because you're playing into even if you because you're playing into even if you don't intend on doing it, it's always don't intend on doing it, it's always don't intend on doing it, it's always nice to sort of be window shopped nice to sort of be window shopped nice to sort of be window shopped against, I suppose. against, I suppose. against, I suppose. >> Totally. And And it's interesting, >> Totally. And And it's interesting, >> Totally. And And it's interesting, right? Cuz these are right? Cuz these are right? Cuz these are human equivalents of the peacock's tail. human equivalents of the peacock's tail. human equivalents of the peacock's tail. And whereas in in peacocks and and every And whereas in in peacocks and and every And whereas in in peacocks and and every other species, basically their peacock's other species, basically their peacock's other species, basically their peacock's tails tails tails non-negotiable, that's just how they do non-negotiable, that's just how they do non-negotiable, that's just how they do it. Whereas we, cuz we're a cultural it. Whereas we, cuz we're a cultural it. Whereas we, cuz we're a cultural animal, we we always have our peacock's animal, we we always have our peacock's animal, we we always have our peacock's tails. We always have our way of showing tails. We always have our way of showing tails. We always have our way of showing off status and and whatever else, off status and and whatever else, off status and and whatever else, resources. resources. resources. Um Um Um But it varies from culture to culture But it varies from culture to culture But it varies from culture to culture and time to time. and time to time. and time to time. >> Why isn't it that women aren't turning >> Why isn't it that women aren't turning >> Why isn't it that women aren't turning up in a fast car with a an expensive up in a fast car with a an expensive up in a fast car with a an expensive watch outside? watch outside? watch outside? >> That's a very interesting question. And >> That's a very interesting question. And >> That's a very interesting question. And I guess that I guess cuz that's more I guess that I guess cuz that's more I guess that I guess cuz that's more indicative of of resources. And indicative of of resources. And indicative of of resources. And resources are more important to women resources are more important to women resources are more important to women than men. than men. than men. Um I don't know. There was this um Um I don't know. There was this um Um I don't know. There was this um the study where the study where the study where uh this guy uh it wasn't study actually. uh this guy uh it wasn't study actually. uh this guy uh it wasn't study actually. This guy in in his class, his This guy in in his class, his This guy in in his class, his evolutionary psychology class, he was uh evolutionary psychology class, he was uh evolutionary psychology class, he was uh showing a a photo of um this uh this showing a a photo of um this uh this showing a a photo of um this uh this amazing Rolex. And um people saying how amazing Rolex. And um people saying how amazing Rolex. And um people saying how how great it was and what what a great how great it was and what what a great how great it was and what what a great uh way of attracting a mate that it uh way of attracting a mate that it uh way of attracting a mate that it would be. And then he revealed the trick would be. And then he revealed the trick would be. And then he revealed the trick was that actually it was a woman's Rolex was that actually it was a woman's Rolex was that actually it was a woman's Rolex rather than a man's. And uh and and his rather than a man's. And uh and and his rather than a man's. And uh and and his point was that actually this goes point was that actually this goes point was that actually this goes both and in both directions more than we both and in both directions more than we both and in both directions more than we kind of think it does. kind of think it does. kind of think it does. >> Mhm. >> Mhm. >> Mhm. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Have you seen, I think it's Andrew >> Have you seen, I think it's Andrew >> Have you seen, I think it's Andrew Thomas that did this study. Have you Thomas that did this study. Have you Thomas that did this study. Have you seen the seen the seen the preferences preferences preferences that women state when it comes to sperm that women state when it comes to sperm that women state when it comes to sperm donors? donors? donors? >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> So this is [ __ ] fascinating. Cuz >> So this is [ __ ] fascinating. Cuz >> So this is [ __ ] fascinating. Cuz what's interesting is when you run a what's interesting is when you run a what's interesting is when you run a kind of a split test or you're able to kind of a split test or you're able to kind of a split test or you're able to separate out certain motivations from separate out certain motivations from separate out certain motivations from uh a behavior that people are typical uh a behavior that people are typical uh a behavior that people are typical with. So with. So with. So in order for you to do the I want to in order for you to do the I want to in order for you to do the I want to have kids with this person, typically have kids with this person, typically have kids with this person, typically you need to go through courtship phase you need to go through courtship phase you need to go through courtship phase and get to know them and or even if it's and get to know them and or even if it's and get to know them and or even if it's a one-night stand, be seduced by them. a one-night stand, be seduced by them. a one-night stand, be seduced by them. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> But that means that you're optimizing >> But that means that you're optimizing >> But that means that you're optimizing for two different things. You're not for two different things. You're not for two different things. You're not just optimizing for the genes that your just optimizing for the genes that your just optimizing for the genes that your kid gets, you're also optimizing for the kid gets, you're also optimizing for the kid gets, you're also optimizing for the expression of traits that make you want expression of traits that make you want expression of traits that make you want to get into bed with somebody. But if to get into bed with somebody. But if to get into bed with somebody. But if you get rid of the seduction side of you get rid of the seduction side of you get rid of the seduction side of this, all you're optimizing for is what this, all you're optimizing for is what this, all you're optimizing for is what do I want my kids to have from a trait do I want my kids to have from a trait do I want my kids to have from a trait perspective. perspective. perspective. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> And that difference of when you get rid >> And that difference of when you get rid >> And that difference of when you get rid of the need to actually be attracted to of the need to actually be attracted to of the need to actually be attracted to somebody, you can just optimize for what somebody, you can just optimize for what somebody, you can just optimize for what do I want my kids to be like. do I want my kids to be like. do I want my kids to be like. >> Yep. >> Yep. >> Yep. >> Kind of fascinating. >> Kind of fascinating. >> Kind of fascinating. >> It's really fascinating, right? And and >> It's really fascinating, right? And and >> It's really fascinating, right? And and just the same mate preferences emerge in just the same mate preferences emerge in just the same mate preferences emerge in that context as emerge in an actual uh that context as emerge in an actual uh that context as emerge in an actual uh interaction, social interactions. interaction, social interactions. interaction, social interactions. >> Mhm. >> Mhm. >> Mhm. There's that Clark Hatfield study as There's that Clark Hatfield study as There's that Clark Hatfield study as well, right? The on-street interview. well, right? The on-street interview. well, right? The on-street interview. >> Yeah. Yeah, that's the one where um >> Yeah. Yeah, that's the one where um >> Yeah. Yeah, that's the one where um uh basically, they got a bunch of uh basically, they got a bunch of uh basically, they got a bunch of good-looking guys, good-looking gals to good-looking guys, good-looking gals to good-looking guys, good-looking gals to go around a campus on a nice day, uh go around a campus on a nice day, uh go around a campus on a nice day, uh walk up to random people on the campus walk up to random people on the campus walk up to random people on the campus and just say, "Hello, how you doing? Um and just say, "Hello, how you doing? Um and just say, "Hello, how you doing? Um I've noticed you around the place lately I've noticed you around the place lately I've noticed you around the place lately and find you very attractive and I was and find you very attractive and I was and find you very attractive and I was just wondering whether you wanted to just wondering whether you wanted to just wondering whether you wanted to {dot} {dot} {dot}" and then they would {dot} {dot} {dot}" and then they would {dot} {dot} {dot}" and then they would finish that sentence with one of three finish that sentence with one of three finish that sentence with one of three options. options. options. Option number one was I was wondering if Option number one was I was wondering if Option number one was I was wondering if you wanted to go out with me tonight. you wanted to go out with me tonight. you wanted to go out with me tonight. Option number two was I was wondering if Option number two was I was wondering if Option number two was I was wondering if you wanted to come up to my room. And you wanted to come up to my room. And you wanted to come up to my room. And option number three was I wondering option number three was I wondering option number three was I wondering wondering if you wanted to go to bed wondering if you wanted to go to bed wondering if you wanted to go to bed with me. with me. with me. And they got men to ask women, women to And they got men to ask women, women to And they got men to ask women, women to ask men. And for the um for the first ask men. And for the um for the first ask men. And for the um for the first first question, the go out with me first question, the go out with me first question, the go out with me question, there in in the first study question, there in in the first study question, there in in the first study they did, there was basically no sex they did, there was basically no sex they did, there was basically no sex difference. So it was about 50% 50/50 difference. So it was about 50% 50/50 difference. So it was about 50% 50/50 likelihood of saying yes in both cases. likelihood of saying yes in both cases. likelihood of saying yes in both cases. Uh other replication studies have found Uh other replication studies have found Uh other replication studies have found that that that it's not a huge difference, but that it's not a huge difference, but that it's not a huge difference, but that actually men are more likely to say yes actually men are more likely to say yes actually men are more likely to say yes than women are. than women are. than women are. But then with the other two questions, But then with the other two questions, But then with the other two questions, the gaps get bigger and bigger. With the gaps get bigger and bigger. With the gaps get bigger and bigger. With question number two, question number two, question number two, which is would you want to come up to my which is would you want to come up to my which is would you want to come up to my room, um room, um room, um what was it? It was basically 60 In the what was it? It was basically 60 In the what was it? It was basically 60 In the first study, about 67% of men said yes. first study, about 67% of men said yes. first study, about 67% of men said yes. So, actually higher than the date rate. So, actually higher than the date rate. So, actually higher than the date rate. >> [laughter] >> [laughter] >> [laughter] >> More likely to go up to your room than I >> More likely to go up to your room than I >> More likely to go up to your room than I am to go on a date with you. am to go on a date with you. am to go on a date with you. >> Exactly. >> Exactly. >> Exactly. >> Hilarious. >> Hilarious. >> Hilarious. >> Uh, with women on the other hand, >> Uh, with women on the other hand, >> Uh, with women on the other hand, it uh sank down to I believe it was 6% it uh sank down to I believe it was 6% it uh sank down to I believe it was 6% said yes to that. said yes to that. said yes to that. Uh, and then the gap was even bigger for Uh, and then the gap was even bigger for Uh, and then the gap was even bigger for the last question, unsurprisingly. So, the last question, unsurprisingly. So, the last question, unsurprisingly. So, would you go to bed with me? 75% of men would you go to bed with me? 75% of men would you go to bed with me? 75% of men said yes said yes said yes uh to that offer. So, at even higher uh to that offer. So, at even higher uh to that offer. So, at even higher rate of men. rate of men. rate of men. Whereas uh exactly 0% of women said yes Whereas uh exactly 0% of women said yes Whereas uh exactly 0% of women said yes to the the kind offer. And not only to the the kind offer. And not only to the the kind offer. And not only that, but actually the the manner of the that, but actually the the manner of the that, but actually the the manner of the refusal differed between men and women. refusal differed between men and women. refusal differed between men and women. So, uh the um 25% of men who said So, uh the um 25% of men who said So, uh the um 25% of men who said thanks, but no thanks, thanks, but no thanks, thanks, but no thanks, well, they kind of said that. They were well, they kind of said that. They were well, they kind of said that. They were like polite about it. And uh some of like polite about it. And uh some of like polite about it. And uh some of them said, "I'm really sorry. I'm I'm them said, "I'm really sorry. I'm I'm them said, "I'm really sorry. I'm I'm meeting my fiance." or whatever. Bunch meeting my fiance." or whatever. Bunch meeting my fiance." or whatever. Bunch of them even asked for a rain check, of them even asked for a rain check, of them even asked for a rain check, apparently. They said, "I can't No, I'm apparently. They said, "I can't No, I'm apparently. They said, "I can't No, I'm very busy. I'm meeting my fiance or or very busy. I'm meeting my fiance or or very busy. I'm meeting my fiance or or whatever, but maybe we could postpone whatever, but maybe we could postpone whatever, but maybe we could postpone the sex till later." Whereas uh none of the sex till later." Whereas uh none of the sex till later." Whereas uh none of the women uh who were refusing were the women uh who were refusing were the women uh who were refusing were polite about it at all. They were more polite about it at all. They were more polite about it at all. They were more They were reacted more like, "Are you They were reacted more like, "Are you They were reacted more like, "Are you crazy? Um How dare you ask me that?" crazy? Um How dare you ask me that?" crazy? Um How dare you ask me that?" None of them um apologized and asked for None of them um apologized and asked for None of them um apologized and asked for a rain check. a rain check. a rain check. >> Why do you think that the manner of >> Why do you think that the manner of >> Why do you think that the manner of refusal was so different? refusal was so different? refusal was so different? >> Uh >> Uh >> Uh I think that it reveals Well, two I think that it reveals Well, two I think that it reveals Well, two reasons. So, one is there's this average reasons. So, one is there's this average reasons. So, one is there's this average difference in interest in casual sex. difference in interest in casual sex. difference in interest in casual sex. And of course men are more interested in And of course men are more interested in And of course men are more interested in it. They are more likely to be flattered it. They are more likely to be flattered it. They are more likely to be flattered by the request. Uh because men are much by the request. Uh because men are much by the request. Uh because men are much more likely to approach women than vice more likely to approach women than vice more likely to approach women than vice versa. versa. versa. Traditionally, uh Traditionally, uh Traditionally, uh women are much more likely to get sick women are much more likely to get sick women are much more likely to get sick of it and and have to, of it and and have to, of it and and have to, you know, uh push guys away. you know, uh push guys away. you know, uh push guys away. Whereas guys are much It's a rarer event Whereas guys are much It's a rarer event Whereas guys are much It's a rarer event for them, so they are more likely to be for them, so they are more likely to be for them, so they are more likely to be flattered and flattered and flattered and uh uh uh and hugely grateful and hugely grateful and hugely grateful on the rare occasions when it happens. on the rare occasions when it happens. on the rare occasions when it happens. Uh the other thing though, Uh the other thing though, Uh the other thing though, and the reason I think the difference is and the reason I think the difference is and the reason I think the difference is quite so big is because it's it's not quite so big is because it's it's not quite so big is because it's it's not just a reflection of sex differences and just a reflection of sex differences and just a reflection of sex differences and interest in casual sex. interest in casual sex. interest in casual sex. I think also in that situation I think also in that situation I think also in that situation like like if a woman were to go off with like like if a woman were to go off with like like if a woman were to go off with a guy that she doesn't know, a guy that she doesn't know, a guy that she doesn't know, she's at a greater physical risk than if she's at a greater physical risk than if she's at a greater physical risk than if a guy goes off with a woman that he a guy goes off with a woman that he a guy goes off with a woman that he doesn't know. doesn't know. doesn't know. So, the fact that the the difference was So, the fact that the the difference was So, the fact that the the difference was massive is partly due to that as well. massive is partly due to that as well. massive is partly due to that as well. >> Feels like a danger. >> Feels like a danger. >> Feels like a danger. >> Yeah, exactly. >> Yeah, exactly. >> Yeah, exactly. >> that emotional activation of hang on, >> that emotional activation of hang on, >> that emotional activation of hang on, I'm going to go with this person who I I'm going to go with this person who I I'm going to go with this person who I don't know, who is physically stronger don't know, who is physically stronger don't know, who is physically stronger than me. than me. than me. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Explosion. >> Explosion. >> Explosion. >> Exactly. >> Exactly. >> Exactly. >> As opposed to there's just way less of a >> As opposed to there's just way less of a >> As opposed to there's just way less of a It feels less of a physical threat to It feels less of a physical threat to It feels less of a physical threat to me. me. me. Those both make Those both both make Those both make Those both both make Those both make Those both both make complete sense. There's a complete sense. There's a complete sense. There's a an interesting wrinkle in this. Now, I'm an interesting wrinkle in this. Now, I'm an interesting wrinkle in this. Now, I'm I'm going to guess that when they did I'm going to guess that when they did I'm going to guess that when they did this, the Clark Hatfield study, they this, the Clark Hatfield study, they this, the Clark Hatfield study, they must have done some sort of must have done some sort of must have done some sort of rated assessment of the attractiveness rated assessment of the attractiveness rated assessment of the attractiveness of the man or the men versus the women of the man or the men versus the women of the man or the men versus the women to ensure that they were similarly high to ensure that they were similarly high to ensure that they were similarly high in terms of physical attractiveness. in terms of physical attractiveness. in terms of physical attractiveness. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Right? >> Right? >> Right? >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> So, >> So, >> So, something that I learned that I think is something that I learned that I think is something that I learned that I think is absolutely [ __ ] hilarious is one of absolutely [ __ ] hilarious is one of absolutely [ __ ] hilarious is one of the reasons why women, and I presume men the reasons why women, and I presume men the reasons why women, and I presume men would be too if women approached men at would be too if women approached men at would be too if women approached men at the same rate, one of the reasons why the same rate, one of the reasons why the same rate, one of the reasons why women are sometimes quite rude when guys women are sometimes quite rude when guys women are sometimes quite rude when guys come up to them is if they feel like come up to them is if they feel like come up to them is if they feel like there's too big of a disparity in mate there's too big of a disparity in mate there's too big of a disparity in mate value between them and the person doing value between them and the person doing value between them and the person doing it. Because they go it. Because they go it. Because they go >> Hang on. >> Hang on. >> Hang on. You think you've got a you've got a You think you've got a you've got a You think you've got a you've got a chance with me? chance with me? chance with me? >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Oh my god. It's basically an insult. >> Oh my god. It's basically an insult. >> Oh my god. It's basically an insult. It's essentially an insult. If you as a It's essentially an insult. If you as a It's essentially an insult. If you as a woman think that you're an eight, nobody woman think that you're an eight, nobody woman think that you're an eight, nobody thinks like this. It's not the Whatever thinks like this. It's not the Whatever thinks like this. It's not the Whatever podcast. podcast. podcast. You as a woman think that you're an You as a woman think that you're an You as a woman think that you're an eight, eight, eight, >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> and a guy that you think is a three >> and a guy that you think is a three >> and a guy that you think is a three comes up to you, comes up to you, comes up to you, that is that is that is >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> it tests your own self-perception and >> it tests your own self-perception and >> it tests your own self-perception and you go, [ __ ] maybe this is how the you go, [ __ ] maybe this is how the you go, [ __ ] maybe this is how the world sees me." world sees me." world sees me." >> Yeah. Do you not think I'm an eight as >> Yeah. Do you not think I'm an eight as >> Yeah. Do you not think I'm an eight as well? Yeah. well? Yeah. well? Yeah. >> Yeah, and I think that that >> Yeah, and I think that that >> Yeah, and I think that that it feels like an insult. And the same it feels like an insult. And the same it feels like an insult. And the same thing like, "Fucking no, get away thing like, "Fucking no, get away thing like, "Fucking no, get away because rightly so, you're kind of because rightly so, you're kind of because rightly so, you're kind of pissed that this thing happened. pissed that this thing happened. pissed that this thing happened. >> I wonder if guys would feel the same in >> I wonder if guys would feel the same in >> I wonder if guys would feel the same in reverse. See, my my hunch is that they reverse. See, my my hunch is that they reverse. See, my my hunch is that they would be less likely to take it as a would be less likely to take it as a would be less likely to take it as a huge insult if the guy felt he was an huge insult if the guy felt he was an huge insult if the guy felt he was an eight and approached by a three. eight and approached by a three. eight and approached by a three. >> Well, preference for casual sex. >> Well, preference for casual sex. >> Well, preference for casual sex. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> rarer >> rarer >> rarer approach in any case. approach in any case. approach in any case. >> Indeed. >> Indeed. >> Indeed. >> Um and because >> Um and because >> Um and because women are less likely to approach, I women are less likely to approach, I women are less likely to approach, I think that most guys would actually see think that most guys would actually see think that most guys would actually see it as closer to, "You know what? I'm so it as closer to, "You know what? I'm so it as closer to, "You know what? I'm so good looking that I got that girl to good looking that I got that girl to good looking that I got that girl to overcome overcome overcome >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> non-approach predisposition. >> non-approach predisposition. >> non-approach predisposition. >> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. >> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. >> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. >> That's the power of my attractiveness. I >> That's the power of my attractiveness. I >> That's the power of my attractiveness. I think that's I think that's how a lot of think that's I think that's how a lot of think that's I think that's how a lot of guys would take it and I think that's guys would take it and I think that's guys would take it and I think that's why it is it is flattering. It's like why it is it is flattering. It's like why it is it is flattering. It's like um somebody running for a bus fast that um somebody running for a bus fast that um somebody running for a bus fast that they really, really want. You know, they really, really want. You know, they really, really want. You know, like, "Well, they must really want this like, "Well, they must really want this like, "Well, they must really want this bus cuz look at how fast they're going bus cuz look at how fast they're going bus cuz look at how fast they're going as opposed to how slow they would as opposed to how slow they would as opposed to how slow they would usually usually usually >> And guys tend to be more overconfident >> And guys tend to be more overconfident >> And guys tend to be more overconfident than women. than women. than women. >> Mhm. >> Mhm. >> Mhm. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> What about sex differences in >> What about sex differences in >> What about sex differences in aggression? aggression? aggression? >> Sex differences in aggression very, very >> Sex differences in aggression very, very >> Sex differences in aggression very, very consistent especially for direct consistent especially for direct consistent especially for direct aggression, so face-to-face aggression aggression, so face-to-face aggression aggression, so face-to-face aggression and guys predominate. And a really and guys predominate. And a really and guys predominate. And a really interesting fact about the aggression interesting fact about the aggression interesting fact about the aggression sex difference is that it's it's for sex difference is that it's it's for sex difference is that it's it's for like verbal aggression like verbal aggression like verbal aggression it's there and it's significant. It's it's there and it's significant. It's it's there and it's significant. It's fairly modest though. So, the effect fairly modest though. So, the effect fairly modest though. So, the effect size might be about like a 0.5 effect size might be about like a 0.5 effect size might be about like a 0.5 effect size, so half a standard deviation size, so half a standard deviation size, so half a standard deviation between the mean for men and men and between the mean for men and men and between the mean for men and men and women. women. women. And maybe, you know, pluck two people at And maybe, you know, pluck two people at And maybe, you know, pluck two people at random, random, random, guy and a gal, two-thirds of the time guy and a gal, two-thirds of the time guy and a gal, two-thirds of the time the guy's going to be higher in verbal the guy's going to be higher in verbal the guy's going to be higher in verbal aggression. aggression. aggression. But as you go further out to more and But as you go further out to more and But as you go further out to more and more intense forms of aggression, the more intense forms of aggression, the more intense forms of aggression, the size of the sex difference gets bigger size of the sex difference gets bigger size of the sex difference gets bigger and bigger with every step. So, when you and bigger with every step. So, when you and bigger with every step. So, when you go to low levels of physical aggression, go to low levels of physical aggression, go to low levels of physical aggression, slapping, pushing, that kind of thing, slapping, pushing, that kind of thing, slapping, pushing, that kind of thing, that you have a larger sex difference, that you have a larger sex difference, that you have a larger sex difference, men doing it more. Then you get into men doing it more. Then you get into men doing it more. Then you get into serious physical aggression, violent serious physical aggression, violent serious physical aggression, violent crime, crime, crime, it's much more men than women. it's much more men than women. it's much more men than women. >> of who the victim is. >> of who the victim is. >> of who the victim is. >> Independent of who the victim is. It is, >> Independent of who the victim is. It is, >> Independent of who the victim is. It is, yeah. yeah. yeah. Um Um Um and then when you get to the extreme of and then when you get to the extreme of and then when you get to the extreme of one-on-one one-on-one one-on-one aggression, which is homicide, uh men aggression, which is homicide, uh men aggression, which is homicide, uh men vastly predominate. So, across different vastly predominate. So, across different vastly predominate. So, across different uh cultures, every single nation, uh uh cultures, every single nation, uh uh cultures, every single nation, uh every data set I've I've ever seen, 90 every data set I've I've ever seen, 90 every data set I've I've ever seen, 90 plus percent of homicides are plus percent of homicides are plus percent of homicides are perpetrated by men. Men are also they're perpetrated by men. Men are also they're perpetrated by men. Men are also they're they're the majority of the victims as they're the majority of the victims as they're the majority of the victims as well, and and almost all data sets that well, and and almost all data sets that well, and and almost all data sets that I've seen. I've seen. I've seen. Um but but yeah, the 90% plus Um but but yeah, the 90% plus Um but but yeah, the 90% plus perpetrators, very very strong effect. perpetrators, very very strong effect. perpetrators, very very strong effect. >> Yeah, uh men commit more than 90% of >> Yeah, uh men commit more than 90% of >> Yeah, uh men commit more than 90% of homicides in every society on Earth homicides in every society on Earth homicides in every society on Earth where data is available, and this gap is where data is available, and this gap is where data is available, and this gap is remarkably invariant across cultures, remarkably invariant across cultures, remarkably invariant across cultures, not just the absolute rates. In humans, not just the absolute rates. In humans, not just the absolute rates. In humans, males commit 95% of homicides, and are males commit 95% of homicides, and are males commit 95% of homicides, and are 70 to 80% of homicide victims. In 70 to 80% of homicide victims. In 70 to 80% of homicide victims. In chimpanzees, males commit 92% of chimpanzees, males commit 92% of chimpanzees, males commit 92% of chimpicides, and are 73% of victims, chimpicides, and are 73% of victims, chimpicides, and are 73% of victims, virtually identical numbers to humans. virtually identical numbers to humans. virtually identical numbers to humans. >> It's wild, right? Yeah. Now, they are >> It's wild, right? Yeah. Now, they are >> It's wild, right? Yeah. Now, they are more aggressive than us. I think some more aggressive than us. I think some more aggressive than us. I think some sometimes people hear that and they sometimes people hear that and they sometimes people hear that and they think that the claim is that we're just think that the claim is that we're just think that the claim is that we're just as aggressive as chimps, but they are as aggressive as chimps, but they are as aggressive as chimps, but they are more. But the size of the sex diff- more. But the size of the sex diff- more. But the size of the sex diff- difference in lethal aggression is the difference in lethal aggression is the difference in lethal aggression is the same, and the size of the the targets, same, and the size of the the targets, same, and the size of the the targets, the sex difference in the targets of the sex difference in the targets of the sex difference in the targets of aggression is about the same as well. aggression is about the same as well. aggression is about the same as well. >> Why? >> Why? >> Why? >> Uh that is a direct offshoot of the fact >> Uh that is a direct offshoot of the fact >> Uh that is a direct offshoot of the fact that um that um that um it it's the selection for it it's the selection for it it's the selection for getting to be one of the few males that getting to be one of the few males that getting to be one of the few males that has many offspring rather than the many has many offspring rather than the many has many offspring rather than the many that have few of them. that have few of them. that have few of them. And one of the ways that males do that And one of the ways that males do that And one of the ways that males do that is they compete with each other is they compete with each other is they compete with each other uh for status and resources, uh for status and resources, uh for status and resources, uh which increase their mating uh which increase their mating uh which increase their mating opportunities. opportunities. opportunities. And so you get selection in many many And so you get selection in many many And so you get selection in many many species, not just humans, selection for species, not just humans, selection for species, not just humans, selection for greater aggression in the males, and and greater aggression in the males, and and greater aggression in the males, and and particularly for greater male-male particularly for greater male-male particularly for greater male-male aggression, which is why you have this aggression, which is why you have this aggression, which is why you have this the skew toward the skew toward the skew toward not only do other males more aggressive, not only do other males more aggressive, not only do other males more aggressive, but the targets of their aggression tend but the targets of their aggression tend but the targets of their aggression tend to be same-sex individuals as well. to be same-sex individuals as well. to be same-sex individuals as well. For women and for female animals in For women and for female animals in For women and for female animals in general, they are capable of aggression general, they are capable of aggression general, they are capable of aggression in many species, but there's just less in many species, but there's just less in many species, but there's just less of a selection pressure. It's less It's of a selection pressure. It's less It's of a selection pressure. It's less It's less useful for them evolutionarily to less useful for them evolutionarily to less useful for them evolutionarily to engage in same-sex engage in same-sex engage in same-sex combat for status and resources combat for status and resources combat for status and resources because of the fact that the the ceiling because of the fact that the the ceiling because of the fact that the the ceiling offspring number that they have is offspring number that they have is offspring number that they have is lower. So, they can't vastly increase lower. So, they can't vastly increase lower. So, they can't vastly increase the number of offspring they have by the number of offspring they have by the number of offspring they have by fighting each other and getting lots of fighting each other and getting lots of fighting each other and getting lots of status, resources, and ultimately mates. status, resources, and ultimately mates. status, resources, and ultimately mates. You know, that that won't boost the You know, that that won't boost the You know, that that won't boost the number of offspring they have cuz the number of offspring they have cuz the number of offspring they have cuz the ceiling is lower. ceiling is lower. ceiling is lower. So, it's it's costly effort them. The So, it's it's costly effort them. The So, it's it's costly effort them. The costs aren't worth the risks. costs aren't worth the risks. costs aren't worth the risks. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. Plus more fragile. Plus more fragile. Plus more fragile. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> More easy more easily killed. Like just >> More easy more easily killed. Like just >> More easy more easily killed. Like just generally. generally. generally. >> Yeah, um but that's that's possibly just >> Yeah, um but that's that's possibly just >> Yeah, um but that's that's possibly just an offshoot of the fact that there's an offshoot of the fact that there's an offshoot of the fact that there's been less selection on them for been less selection on them for been less selection on them for aggression. So, there's been more more aggression. So, there's been more more aggression. So, there's been more more of that in males. of that in males. of that in males. >> up the defenses in order to be able >> up the defenses in order to be able >> up the defenses in order to be able Exactly. That's why we have a brow Exactly. That's why we have a brow Exactly. That's why we have a brow ridge. That's why we've got bigger ridge. That's why we've got bigger ridge. That's why we've got bigger hands. hands. hands. >> Exactly. Yeah. >> Exactly. Yeah. >> Exactly. Yeah. >> So, what's interesting, again talking to >> So, what's interesting, again talking to >> So, what's interesting, again talking to Andrew Thomas about this, he said Andrew Thomas about this, he said Andrew Thomas about this, he said why is it the case if why is it the case if why is it the case if violence is violence is violence is rightly so such a huge fear that most rightly so such a huge fear that most rightly so such a huge fear that most women have that lots of women are women have that lots of women are women have that lots of women are attracted to powerful men who are able attracted to powerful men who are able attracted to powerful men who are able to be violent? to be violent? to be violent? And And And Andrew's theory is that Andrew's theory is that Andrew's theory is that it's it's it's a perspective that a perspective that a perspective that a guy who is violent is able to turn it a guy who is violent is able to turn it a guy who is violent is able to turn it on and turn it off in service of the on and turn it off in service of the on and turn it off in service of the family unit family unit family unit >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> as opposed to violence being a trait >> as opposed to violence being a trait >> as opposed to violence being a trait that just is more global across the that just is more global across the that just is more global across the board. I think Is Andrew doing Krav board. I think Is Andrew doing Krav board. I think Is Andrew doing Krav Maga? He's into it martial artsy type Maga? He's into it martial artsy type Maga? He's into it martial artsy type stuff, I swear it. stuff, I swear it. stuff, I swear it. >> so, yeah. >> so, yeah. >> so, yeah. >> And uh he was explaining >> And uh he was explaining >> And uh he was explaining how many Krav Maga, this Israeli martial how many Krav Maga, this Israeli martial how many Krav Maga, this Israeli martial arts, arts, arts, very lethal, supposedly, martial art. very lethal, supposedly, martial art. very lethal, supposedly, martial art. Um, a lot of the guys that he trained Um, a lot of the guys that he trained Um, a lot of the guys that he trained with, unbelievably lethal physically. with, unbelievably lethal physically. with, unbelievably lethal physically. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> And a lot of the training was them >> And a lot of the training was them >> And a lot of the training was them learning to turn it off, not turn it on. learning to turn it off, not turn it on. learning to turn it off, not turn it on. >> Interesting. >> Interesting. >> Interesting. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> that that >> that that >> that that the number of men who are physically the number of men who are physically the number of men who are physically imposing and might seem like somebody imposing and might seem like somebody imposing and might seem like somebody that would be really great to be able to that would be really great to be able to that would be really great to be able to protect the family unit protect the family unit protect the family unit >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> that have done the work to be able to >> that have done the work to be able to >> that have done the work to be able to learn to turn that off learn to turn that off learn to turn that off >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> to the trigger that makes this person >> to the trigger that makes this person >> to the trigger that makes this person likely to be uh flash-in-the-pan, you likely to be uh flash-in-the-pan, you likely to be uh flash-in-the-pan, you don't want to [ __ ] with me, bro, guy. don't want to [ __ ] with me, bro, guy. don't want to [ __ ] with me, bro, guy. At least non-zero-ly At least non-zero-ly At least non-zero-ly are also going to have some triggers are also going to have some triggers are also going to have some triggers that will be more sensitive when it that will be more sensitive when it that will be more sensitive when it comes to interpersonal communication and comes to interpersonal communication and comes to interpersonal communication and domestic disputes domestic disputes domestic disputes >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> and things around the house. >> and things around the house. >> and things around the house. >> Indeed. It's It's >> Indeed. It's It's >> Indeed. It's It's interesting, isn't it? Having uh interesting, isn't it? Having uh interesting, isn't it? Having uh >> [sighs] >> [sighs] >> [sighs] >> that kind of temperament, violent >> that kind of temperament, violent >> that kind of temperament, violent temperament, and the capacity for temperament, and the capacity for temperament, and the capacity for physical aggression is a It's really a physical aggression is a It's really a physical aggression is a It's really a mixed blessing for women, you know? It's mixed blessing for women, you know? It's mixed blessing for women, you know? It's great if the guy's going to protect great if the guy's going to protect great if the guy's going to protect them, protect the family. them, protect the family. them, protect the family. But it's not so great because he can But it's not so great because he can But it's not so great because he can potentially turn that against them as potentially turn that against them as potentially turn that against them as well. And so, you know, you get the well. And so, you know, you get the well. And so, you know, you get the evaluation of those traits. evaluation of those traits. evaluation of those traits. It can increase attract- Like aggression It can increase attract- Like aggression It can increase attract- Like aggression itself, I don't think increases itself, I don't think increases itself, I don't think increases attractiveness. Protectiveness does. attractiveness. Protectiveness does. attractiveness. Protectiveness does. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Uh >> Uh >> Uh Muscularity and the like can increase Muscularity and the like can increase Muscularity and the like can increase attraction somewhat, but because it's a attraction somewhat, but because it's a attraction somewhat, but because it's a mixed blessing, I think women are also mixed blessing, I think women are also mixed blessing, I think women are also interested in the guy's character. interested in the guy's character. interested in the guy's character. >> Muscularity seems >> Muscularity seems >> Muscularity seems >> pretty reliable at improving >> pretty reliable at improving >> pretty reliable at improving attractiveness. attractiveness. attractiveness. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah, and it's the probably the most >> Yeah, and it's the probably the most >> Yeah, and it's the probably the most easily modifiable thing that guys can easily modifiable thing that guys can easily modifiable thing that guys can do. do. do. >> Right. Yeah, yeah. >> Right. Yeah, yeah. >> Right. Yeah, yeah. >> I think In fact, I think William said >> I think In fact, I think William said >> I think In fact, I think William said that this is exactly the case cuz he's that this is exactly the case cuz he's that this is exactly the case cuz he's he's looking at his incel stuff. he's looking at his incel stuff. he's looking at his incel stuff. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Did you see Now, I >> Did you see Now, I >> Did you see Now, I broscience this. I put the I put the broscience this. I put the I put the broscience this. I put the I put the the captain of broscience hat on the captain of broscience hat on the captain of broscience hat on when Mack and came through last time, when Mack and came through last time, when Mack and came through last time, and I said, "I'm pretty sure that I've and I said, "I'm pretty sure that I've and I said, "I'm pretty sure that I've seen a study that says seen a study that says seen a study that says a woman would be a woman would be a woman would be would lose more attraction if her would lose more attraction if her would lose more attraction if her partner didn't protect her during a partner didn't protect her during a partner didn't protect her during a physical altercation than if he cheated physical altercation than if he cheated physical altercation than if he cheated on her. on her. on her. >> Right. >> Right. >> Right. >> And then the guys went and replicated it >> And then the guys went and replicated it >> And then the guys went and replicated it and and and >> And you were right? >> And you were right? >> And you were right? >> I was right. >> I was right. >> I was right. >> Excellent. >> Excellent. >> Excellent. >> I mean it wasn't my original insight >> I mean it wasn't my original insight >> I mean it wasn't my original insight because I found it in a study that I because I found it in a study that I because I found it in a study that I couldn't discover again. But this this couldn't discover again. But this this couldn't discover again. But this this the same insight being true, the the same insight being true, the the same insight being true, the protectiveness, the ability to protect. protectiveness, the ability to protect. protectiveness, the ability to protect. In fact, do you know what it is? It was In fact, do you know what it is? It was In fact, do you know what it is? It was the willingness to protect. the willingness to protect. the willingness to protect. >> Yes. >> Yes. >> Yes. >> Wasn't even the ability to protect. Yes. >> Wasn't even the ability to protect. Yes. >> Wasn't even the ability to protect. Yes. But I suppose willingness to protect But I suppose willingness to protect But I suppose willingness to protect is the most important part of is the most important part of is the most important part of protectiveness cuz you can be the protectiveness cuz you can be the protectiveness cuz you can be the biggest guy in the world, but if you're biggest guy in the world, but if you're biggest guy in the world, but if you're not prepared to step in between your not prepared to step in between your not prepared to step in between your misses and this potential assailant, misses and this potential assailant, misses and this potential assailant, doesn't mean anything. doesn't mean anything. doesn't mean anything. >> might as well not be. >> might as well not be. >> might as well not be. >> Exactly. >> Exactly. >> Exactly. >> Yeah, exactly. >> Yeah, exactly. >> Yeah, exactly. >> I wonder, do you know what it is? I >> I wonder, do you know what it is? I >> I wonder, do you know what it is? I wonder if this would be This is another wonder if this would be This is another wonder if this would be This is another new skew that the guy should do. new skew that the guy should do. new skew that the guy should do. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Um is it more or less attractive >> Um is it more or less attractive >> Um is it more or less attractive for a guy who could protect you to not for a guy who could protect you to not for a guy who could protect you to not than a guy who couldn't protect you to than a guy who couldn't protect you to than a guy who couldn't protect you to not? not? not? >> That's an interesting one. >> That's an interesting one. >> That's an interesting one. >> You know what I mean? >> You know what I mean? >> You know what I mean? I need to separate it out here. I need to separate it out here. I need to separate it out here. >> But in terms of the character trait, it >> But in terms of the character trait, it >> But in terms of the character trait, it would be less attractive would be less attractive would be less attractive >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> for the guy who could protect you but >> for the guy who could protect you but >> for the guy who could protect you but doesn't, right? doesn't, right? doesn't, right? >> Mhm. >> Mhm. >> Mhm. >> That shows uh a worse character. >> That shows uh a worse character. >> That shows uh a worse character. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Um >> Um >> Um but I guess it does also matter but I guess it does also matter but I guess it does also matter >> I just need to train him to be able to >> I just need to train him to be able to >> I just need to train him to be able to in the future. in the future. in the future. >> There is that, yeah. >> There is that, yeah. >> There is that, yeah. >> Yeah. Although I mean I need to teach >> Yeah. Although I mean I need to teach >> Yeah. Although I mean I need to teach him to be able to him to be able to him to be able to like be strong enough to be protective like be strong enough to be protective like be strong enough to be protective or need to be able to change his or need to be able to change his or need to be able to change his character in order for him to use his character in order for him to use his character in order for him to use his strength of potential protectiveness. strength of potential protectiveness. strength of potential protectiveness. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. Yeah, but if he's definitely not going Yeah, but if he's definitely not going Yeah, but if he's definitely not going to do that, that's going to be very to do that, that's going to be very to do that, that's going to be very off-putting and you might just want the off-putting and you might just want the off-putting and you might just want the person who is not quite so good at person who is not quite so good at person who is not quite so good at protecting but is willing to do it. protecting but is willing to do it. protecting but is willing to do it. >> Mhm. >> Mhm. >> Mhm. >> If they if they can do it. >> If they if they can do it. >> If they if they can do it. >> That's what I mean. >> That's what I mean. >> That's what I mean. >> There's trade-offs though, right? >> There's trade-offs though, right? >> There's trade-offs though, right? >> Why is it Why is it that women care more >> Why is it Why is it that women care more >> Why is it Why is it that women care more about a man's height than women do? Is about a man's height than women do? Is about a man's height than women do? Is it playing to this? it playing to this? it playing to this? >> Uh I think probably yes. I think it must >> Uh I think probably yes. I think it must >> Uh I think probably yes. I think it must be. I think it's the within a cluster of be. I think it's the within a cluster of be. I think it's the within a cluster of traits that determine protectiveness and traits that determine protectiveness and traits that determine protectiveness and the like. Muscularity, height, they the like. Muscularity, height, they the like. Muscularity, height, they they're all part of the same package. they're all part of the same package. they're all part of the same package. >> Mhm. >> Mhm. >> Mhm. >> And it's interesting, right? That does >> And it's interesting, right? That does >> And it's interesting, right? That does seem to be really, really high on the seem to be really, really high on the seem to be really, really high on the list for women. Seems to be very list for women. Seems to be very list for women. Seems to be very important. important. important. >> You know why this makes the most sense? >> You know why this makes the most sense? >> You know why this makes the most sense? And it's the probably Yeah, I would I would go as far as to Yeah, I would I would go as far as to say it's the most commonly cited "Well, say it's the most commonly cited "Well, say it's the most commonly cited "Well, you bitches" internet kind of rebuttal you bitches" internet kind of rebuttal you bitches" internet kind of rebuttal that guys have around I think uh Tinder that guys have around I think uh Tinder that guys have around I think uh Tinder released as an April Fools' joke about released as an April Fools' joke about released as an April Fools' joke about 10 years ago mhm a height filter 10 years ago mhm a height filter 10 years ago mhm a height filter >> Mhm. >> Mhm. >> Mhm. >> that people could use. Like, "Wouldn't >> that people could use. Like, "Wouldn't >> that people could use. Like, "Wouldn't it be funny if we gave you a height it be funny if we gave you a height it be funny if we gave you a height filter?" filter?" filter?" >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> That's now an actual feature. >> That's now an actual feature. >> That's now an actual feature. >> actual feature, right? >> actual feature, right? >> actual feature, right? >> Yeah. Um and many women don't need to >> Yeah. Um and many women don't need to >> Yeah. Um and many women don't need to date or don't want to date men that are date or don't want to date men that are date or don't want to date men that are under 6 ft. Uh especially not men when under 6 ft. Uh especially not men when under 6 ft. Uh especially not men when you get sort of like 5'7, 5'6, 5'5, like you get sort of like 5'7, 5'6, 5'5, like you get sort of like 5'7, 5'6, 5'5, like very few would. And I had this insight, very few would. And I had this insight, very few would. And I had this insight, the tall girl problem, uh and it was the tall girl problem, uh and it was the tall girl problem, uh and it was born out of a friend whose sister is 5' born out of a friend whose sister is 5' born out of a friend whose sister is 5' 2. Uh sorry, her sister's 5'11. Um so, 2. Uh sorry, her sister's 5'11. Um so, 2. Uh sorry, her sister's 5'11. Um so, if she wants to wear heels on her if she wants to wear heels on her if she wants to wear heels on her wedding day, she's like a professional wedding day, she's like a professional wedding day, she's like a professional athlete. athlete. athlete. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> And they were going around the >> And they were going around the >> And they were going around the supermarket and she saw this guy who was supermarket and she saw this guy who was supermarket and she saw this guy who was like 6'5, like tall dude, like you. Tall like 6'5, like tall dude, like you. Tall like 6'5, like tall dude, like you. Tall guy. And she sort of nudges her sister guy. And she sort of nudges her sister guy. And she sort of nudges her sister and says, like, "I got to go up I might and says, like, "I got to go up I might and says, like, "I got to go up I might go up and talk to him." And go up and talk to him." And go up and talk to him." And they round the corner and they say see they round the corner and they say see they round the corner and they say see him with this 5'2 Latina bombshell and him with this 5'2 Latina bombshell and him with this 5'2 Latina bombshell and she kicks off at her sister quietly she kicks off at her sister quietly she kicks off at her sister quietly and says, like, "This [ __ ] [ __ ] and says, like, "This [ __ ] [ __ ] and says, like, "This [ __ ] [ __ ] Like, she could date 5' 5'5, 5'6, 5'7. Like, she could date 5' 5'5, 5'6, 5'7. Like, she could date 5' 5'5, 5'6, 5'7. Why do you have to take a guy that's a Why do you have to take a guy that's a Why do you have to take a guy that's a foot and a half taller than her?" But foot and a half taller than her?" But foot and a half taller than her?" But the point here is the point here is the point here is if we're talking about protectiveness as if we're talking about protectiveness as if we're talking about protectiveness as the driver, the driver, the driver, >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> the fact that your chick is a 5'2 >> the fact that your chick is a 5'2 >> the fact that your chick is a 5'2 Latina, not a 5'11 American, Latina, not a 5'11 American, Latina, not a 5'11 American, does not make your height any more or does not make your height any more or does not make your height any more or less useful when it comes to less useful when it comes to less useful when it comes to protectiveness. this. I don't need to protectiveness. this. I don't need to protectiveness. this. I don't need to protect you less just because you're protect you less just because you're protect you less just because you're smaller. smaller. smaller. >> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. >> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. >> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Indeed. Indeed. Indeed. >> You know? >> You know? >> You know? And this is why I think you don't see And this is why I think you don't see And this is why I think you don't see much of a height compensation effect. much of a height compensation effect. much of a height compensation effect. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Other than >> Other than >> Other than I guess if you're 5'2, you can't really I guess if you're 5'2, you can't really I guess if you're 5'2, you can't really tell the difference. I don't Above tell the difference. I don't Above tell the difference. I don't Above probably 5'10, you it's all just up probably 5'10, you it's all just up probably 5'10, you it's all just up there. there. there. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> It's just like it's all up there, you >> It's just like it's all up there, you >> It's just like it's all up there, you know? know? know? >> In the clouds, exactly. Yeah, my cousins >> In the clouds, exactly. Yeah, my cousins >> In the clouds, exactly. Yeah, my cousins are my cousins are quite tall cuz I'm are my cousins are quite tall cuz I'm are my cousins are quite tall cuz I'm I'm from a tall family and I know they I'm from a tall family and I know they I'm from a tall family and I know they were complaining often. I remember them were complaining often. I remember them were complaining often. I remember them complaining, female cousins, complaining, female cousins, complaining, female cousins, about guys, taller guys, dating much about guys, taller guys, dating much about guys, taller guys, dating much shorter women. But guess how short Guess shorter women. But guess how short Guess shorter women. But guess how short Guess how tall my wife is. She's 5'4. how tall my wife is. She's 5'4. how tall my wife is. She's 5'4. So So So >> [laughter] >> [laughter] >> [laughter] >> These bloody [ __ ] how dare they take >> These bloody [ __ ] how dare they take >> These bloody [ __ ] how dare they take the tall men? the tall men? the tall men? All right, sex differences in stalking. All right, sex differences in stalking. All right, sex differences in stalking. What about that? What about that? What about that? >> Uh women do a lot more of it. >> Uh women do a lot more of it. >> Uh women do a lot more of it. Joke. Men do a lot more of it. Joke. Men do a lot more of it. Joke. Men do a lot more of it. >> [laughter] >> Uh men do a lot more of it. It's I think >> Uh men do a lot more of it. It's I think it's just um an example of the the fact it's just um an example of the the fact it's just um an example of the the fact that men that men that men are more, you know, proactive seeking are more, you know, proactive seeking are more, you know, proactive seeking out mates, seeking out multiple mates, out mates, seeking out multiple mates, out mates, seeking out multiple mates, uh and stalking is the subcategory of uh and stalking is the subcategory of uh and stalking is the subcategory of that when it gets into extremely that when it gets into extremely that when it gets into extremely inappropriate examples of that. inappropriate examples of that. inappropriate examples of that. Um and also I guess uh yeah, it's also Um and also I guess uh yeah, it's also Um and also I guess uh yeah, it's also it's not just mate seeking, it's also it's not just mate seeking, it's also it's not just mate seeking, it's also when people get fixated on somebody. when people get fixated on somebody. when people get fixated on somebody. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> And both sexes can do that. They can get >> And both sexes can do that. They can get >> And both sexes can do that. They can get fixated on somebody. fixated on somebody. fixated on somebody. >> Sort of limerence type thing. >> Sort of limerence type thing. >> Sort of limerence type thing. >> Yeah. Yeah. Exactly, limerence. Yeah. >> Yeah. Yeah. Exactly, limerence. Yeah. >> Yeah. Yeah. Exactly, limerence. Yeah. It's a sort of falling in love except It's a sort of falling in love except It's a sort of falling in love except that that that we call it limerence cuz it's in an we call it limerence cuz it's in an we call it limerence cuz it's in an inappropriate circumstance, i.e., inappropriate circumstance, i.e., inappropriate circumstance, i.e., circumstance where the other person does circumstance where the other person does circumstance where the other person does not reciprocate. Both sexes can do it, not reciprocate. Both sexes can do it, not reciprocate. Both sexes can do it, but but but men are more prone to aggression and men are more prone to aggression and men are more prone to aggression and risk taking and just bad behavior. And risk taking and just bad behavior. And risk taking and just bad behavior. And so they're more likely to do more of the so they're more likely to do more of the so they're more likely to do more of the those kind of behaviors in the context those kind of behaviors in the context those kind of behaviors in the context of of of uh limerence and being fixated on uh limerence and being fixated on uh limerence and being fixated on somebody. somebody. somebody. >> surveillance, surveilling of a partner, >> surveillance, surveilling of a partner, >> surveillance, surveilling of a partner, checking in because I could see two two checking in because I could see two two checking in because I could see two two reasons why either side might be doing reasons why either side might be doing reasons why either side might be doing it more. it more. it more. Male parental uncertainty, which we Male parental uncertainty, which we Male parental uncertainty, which we haven't talked about yet, but is super haven't talked about yet, but is super haven't talked about yet, but is super important. No woman has ever given birth important. No woman has ever given birth important. No woman has ever given birth to a child and wondered whether it was to a child and wondered whether it was to a child and wondered whether it was hers, but many men have looked at maybe hers, but many men have looked at maybe hers, but many men have looked at maybe even all men to some degree. In fact, it even all men to some degree. In fact, it even all men to some degree. In fact, it would be evolutionary would be evolutionary would be evolutionary useful for you the first time that you useful for you the first time that you useful for you the first time that you look at your kid to be so beautiful and look at your kid to be so beautiful and look at your kid to be so beautiful and those my eyes? those my eyes? those my eyes? >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah, I think they're my eyes. >> Yeah, I think they're my eyes. >> Yeah, I think they're my eyes. But given the fact that you have high But given the fact that you have high But given the fact that you have high male parental uncertainty male parental uncertainty male parental uncertainty >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> because you've got concealed ovulation >> because you've got concealed ovulation >> because you've got concealed ovulation and you don't have the same kind of sort and you don't have the same kind of sort and you don't have the same kind of sort of harem hermetically sealed sphere when of harem hermetically sealed sphere when of harem hermetically sealed sphere when it comes to men and women human men and it comes to men and women human men and it comes to men and women human men and women. Um women. Um women. Um stalking I could see a surveillance stalking I could see a surveillance stalking I could see a surveillance surveillance behavior surveillance behavior surveillance behavior mate guard could be a a part of mate mate guard could be a a part of mate mate guard could be a a part of mate guarding guarding guarding >> Totally. >> Totally. >> Totally. >> Uh >> Uh >> Uh to try and counteract that, but I could to try and counteract that, but I could to try and counteract that, but I could also see how it would be useful for also see how it would be useful for also see how it would be useful for women women women in order to ensure that their partner in order to ensure that their partner in order to ensure that their partner doesn't leave them high and dry because doesn't leave them high and dry because doesn't leave them high and dry because there's more of a dependency especially there's more of a dependency especially there's more of a dependency especially if we are going to have a kid or do have if we are going to have a kid or do have if we are going to have a kid or do have a kid. a kid. a kid. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Um the the man doesn't need the woman as >> Um the the man doesn't need the woman as >> Um the the man doesn't need the woman as much for survival. much for survival. much for survival. Uh but the woman doesn't need to check Uh but the woman doesn't need to check Uh but the woman doesn't need to check on the man as much to ensure on the man as much to ensure on the man as much to ensure female parental uncertainty. female parental uncertainty. female parental uncertainty. >> Yeah, that's exactly right. And both >> Yeah, that's exactly right. And both >> Yeah, that's exactly right. And both sexes do get jealous. sexes do get jealous. sexes do get jealous. Uh paternity uncertainty or you know, Uh paternity uncertainty or you know, Uh paternity uncertainty or you know, parental uncertainty is uniquely an parental uncertainty is uniquely an parental uncertainty is uniquely an issue for guys. issue for guys. issue for guys. But you're absolutely right that there But you're absolutely right that there But you're absolutely right that there is uh the danger of desertion for women. is uh the danger of desertion for women. is uh the danger of desertion for women. And so for different reasons both sexes And so for different reasons both sexes And so for different reasons both sexes have evolved to be to be jealous and have evolved to be to be jealous and have evolved to be to be jealous and prone to jealousy. And one way that that prone to jealousy. And one way that that prone to jealousy. And one way that that manifests so so jealousy drives mate manifests so so jealousy drives mate manifests so so jealousy drives mate guarding behavior and one subset of mate guarding behavior and one subset of mate guarding behavior and one subset of mate guarding behavior is surveilling and guarding behavior is surveilling and guarding behavior is surveilling and just keeping keeping an eye on what the just keeping keeping an eye on what the just keeping keeping an eye on what the person is up to and are they getting on person is up to and are they getting on person is up to and are they getting on too well with that good looking next too well with that good looking next too well with that good looking next door neighbor or the good looking guy or door neighbor or the good looking guy or door neighbor or the good looking guy or or woman at work. or woman at work. or woman at work. Um and then if you take that to an Um and then if you take that to an Um and then if you take that to an extreme, that's where it becomes extreme, that's where it becomes extreme, that's where it becomes surveilling behavior. surveilling behavior. surveilling behavior. Isn't it interesting that you have a an Isn't it interesting that you have a an Isn't it interesting that you have a an extreme insight of men about other men extreme insight of men about other men extreme insight of men about other men and an extreme insight of women about and an extreme insight of women about and an extreme insight of women about other women, but the failure of other women, but the failure of other women, but the failure of cross-sex mind reading still occurs even cross-sex mind reading still occurs even cross-sex mind reading still occurs even when you add other individuals in? So, when you add other individuals in? So, when you add other individuals in? So, when we're talking about surveillance, when we're talking about surveillance, when we're talking about surveillance, jealousy, mate guarding, etc. jealousy, mate guarding, etc. jealousy, mate guarding, etc. The I mean The I mean The I mean William put these stats up recently William put these stats up recently William put these stats up recently about how what the percentage is of men about how what the percentage is of men about how what the percentage is of men who would sleep with a female friend. who would sleep with a female friend. who would sleep with a female friend. >> Mhm. >> Mhm. >> Mhm. >> It's huge. [snorts] >> It's huge. [snorts] >> It's huge. [snorts] It's like 50% of relationships used to It's like 50% of relationships used to It's like 50% of relationships used to be friendships. be friendships. be friendships. >> Yeah, yeah, yeah. >> Yeah, yeah, yeah. >> Yeah, yeah, yeah. >> Uh so, that's like 50%. >> Uh so, that's like 50%. >> Uh so, that's like 50%. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Right, that's a huge amount and >> Right, that's a huge amount and >> Right, that's a huge amount and I think uh I think uh I think uh when you put all of this together, you when you put all of this together, you when you put all of this together, you end up with a world where end up with a world where end up with a world where inside of a relationship men are trying inside of a relationship men are trying inside of a relationship men are trying to explain to women what they see in to explain to women what they see in to explain to women what they see in other men that are around them and women other men that are around them and women other men that are around them and women are trying to explain to men what they are trying to explain to men what they are trying to explain to men what they see in the other women that are around see in the other women that are around see in the other women that are around them. And just because it's not them them. And just because it's not them them. And just because it's not them talking about themselves doesn't mean talking about themselves doesn't mean talking about themselves doesn't mean that they can explain it. A woman is no that they can explain it. A woman is no that they can explain it. A woman is no better at understanding another man than better at understanding another man than better at understanding another man than her own husband and a man is no better her own husband and a man is no better her own husband and a man is no better at understanding another woman than his at understanding another woman than his at understanding another woman than his own wife in these sort of own wife in these sort of own wife in these sort of more subtle hard to detect motivations. more subtle hard to detect motivations. more subtle hard to detect motivations. >> Did you say what? >> Did you say what? >> Did you say what? Um Um Um that those data that that William was that those data that that William was that those data that that William was talking about talking about talking about so so yes so like a lot of guys would be so so yes so like a lot of guys would be so so yes so like a lot of guys would be interested in sleeping with friends that interested in sleeping with friends that interested in sleeping with friends that they have, right? But it's not true in they have, right? But it's not true in they have, right? But it's not true in the other direction like fewer the other direction like fewer the other direction like fewer uh some women but fewer of them uh some women but fewer of them uh some women but fewer of them are particularly interested in sleeping are particularly interested in sleeping are particularly interested in sleeping with with with male friends that they have. male friends that they have. male friends that they have. >> Mhm. >> Mhm. >> Mhm. >> But because of the sexual over >> But because of the sexual over >> But because of the sexual over perception bias, the male friends in perception bias, the male friends in perception bias, the male friends in question would probably assume question would probably assume question would probably assume otherwise. otherwise. otherwise. >> Mhm. >> Mhm. >> Mhm. Mhm. Mhm. Mhm. >> What's the sex difference on sexual >> What's the sex difference on sexual >> What's the sex difference on sexual violence? violence? violence? >> Sexual violence men are much more likely >> Sexual violence men are much more likely >> Sexual violence men are much more likely to do it to do it to do it and that is just partly just an offshoot and that is just partly just an offshoot and that is just partly just an offshoot of the fact that men are more aggressive of the fact that men are more aggressive of the fact that men are more aggressive uh, aggressive. uh, aggressive. uh, aggressive. >> Mhm. >> Mhm. >> Mhm. >> Um, yeah, and >> Um, yeah, and >> Um, yeah, and the numbers are pretty big. So, sexual the numbers are pretty big. So, sexual the numbers are pretty big. So, sexual violence, um, violence, um, violence, um, is much more often perpetrated by men is much more often perpetrated by men is much more often perpetrated by men than by women. It's not It doesn't only than by women. It's not It doesn't only than by women. It's not It doesn't only go in in the one direction, though, but go in in the one direction, though, but go in in the one direction, though, but it is just much more common for men to it is just much more common for men to it is just much more common for men to do it. do it. do it. >> have any idea what the numbers are? >> have any idea what the numbers are? >> have any idea what the numbers are? >> Uh, I probably do. Let me have a think. >> Uh, I probably do. Let me have a think. >> Uh, I probably do. Let me have a think. Um, Um, Um, Okay, so I do have a few numbers coming Okay, so I do have a few numbers coming Okay, so I do have a few numbers coming to mind, but I'm not actually sure if to mind, but I'm not actually sure if to mind, but I'm not actually sure if they're the right numbers. So, I'm going they're the right numbers. So, I'm going they're the right numbers. So, I'm going to I'm going to again do the annoying to I'm going to again do the annoying to I'm going to again do the annoying academic thing. academic thing. academic thing. >> Directionally correct, specifically >> Directionally correct, specifically >> Directionally correct, specifically vague. vague. vague. >> in vague. So, directionally correct, and >> in vague. So, directionally correct, and >> in vague. So, directionally correct, and and I'll you know, I'll go to say that and I'll you know, I'll go to say that and I'll you know, I'll go to say that it is a big difference. it is a big difference. it is a big difference. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Um, >> Um, >> Um, I think the effect size might be I think the effect size might be I think the effect size might be something like, something like, something like, uh, uh, uh, two. two. two. So, like two standard deviations between So, like two standard deviations between So, like two standard deviations between the mean for men and women for the the mean for men and women for the the mean for men and women for the extreme forms of, um, of sexual violence extreme forms of, um, of sexual violence extreme forms of, um, of sexual violence and sexual assault and harassment and and sexual assault and harassment and and sexual assault and harassment and that kind of like. that kind of like. that kind of like. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. Yeah, another situation where it's >> Yeah. Yeah, another situation where it's >> Yeah. Yeah, another situation where it's kind of hard to talk about evolutionary kind of hard to talk about evolutionary kind of hard to talk about evolutionary explanations for bad behavior, like the explanations for bad behavior, like the explanations for bad behavior, like the worst behavior, right? Between this and worst behavior, right? Between this and worst behavior, right? Between this and homicide without sounding like you're homicide without sounding like you're homicide without sounding like you're excusing it as natural, but excusing it as natural, but excusing it as natural, but >> Exactly, but again, natural doesn't mean >> Exactly, but again, natural doesn't mean >> Exactly, but again, natural doesn't mean good. good. good. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> I mean, you know, you can explain bad >> I mean, you know, you can explain bad >> I mean, you know, you can explain bad stuff without saying that actually the stuff without saying that actually the stuff without saying that actually the bad stuff is not good stuff. You It's bad stuff is not good stuff. You It's bad stuff is not good stuff. You It's still, still, still, uh, bad even if it has an evolutionary uh, bad even if it has an evolutionary uh, bad even if it has an evolutionary explanation. explanation. explanation. >> Yeah. Yeah. It's that, uh, >> Yeah. Yeah. It's that, uh, >> Yeah. Yeah. It's that, uh, analysis is not justification. analysis is not justification. analysis is not justification. >> Yeah. Yeah, exactly. >> Yeah. Yeah, exactly. >> Yeah. Yeah, exactly. >> Uh, you know, that's a [ __ ] Hasan >> Uh, you know, that's a [ __ ] Hasan >> Uh, you know, that's a [ __ ] Hasan [ __ ] quote. That's like a Hasan [ __ ] [ __ ] quote. That's like a Hasan [ __ ] [ __ ] quote. That's like a Hasan [ __ ] quote. quote. quote. >> Is that Is that right? >> Is that Is that right? >> Is that Is that right? >> Yeah, he got canceled He got canceled >> Yeah, he got canceled He got canceled >> Yeah, he got canceled He got canceled for talking about some stuff to do with for talking about some stuff to do with for talking about some stuff to do with the right wing. the right wing. the right wing. That is an absolute slammer of a line, That is an absolute slammer of a line, That is an absolute slammer of a line, analysis is not justification. analysis is not justification. analysis is not justification. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Uh, but you know, we can see sexual >> Uh, but you know, we can see sexual >> Uh, but you know, we can see sexual violence if men are violence if men are violence if men are able to able to able to procreate without having to do any procreate without having to do any procreate without having to do any investment, investment, investment, the ultimate form of that is to not even the ultimate form of that is to not even the ultimate form of that is to not even have to ask for consent as well. have to ask for consent as well. have to ask for consent as well. >> Yeah. Yeah, indeed. And, you know, it >> Yeah. Yeah, indeed. And, you know, it >> Yeah. Yeah, indeed. And, you know, it has been argued that has been argued that has been argued that the tendency the tendency the tendency in some men to do that, to take that in some men to do that, to take that in some men to do that, to take that path, does have evolutionary roots. path, does have evolutionary roots. path, does have evolutionary roots. Um Um Um And I guess really you just have to have And I guess really you just have to have And I guess really you just have to have two things. You have to have two things. You have to have two things. You have to have men's greater interest in men's greater interest in men's greater interest in sexual variety and casual sex. sexual variety and casual sex. sexual variety and casual sex. >> Mhm. >> Mhm. >> Mhm. >> Uh coupled with their willingness to use >> Uh coupled with their willingness to use >> Uh coupled with their willingness to use violence in certain uh violence in certain uh violence in certain uh you know, certain situations. you know, certain situations. you know, certain situations. So, because men are more interested in So, because men are more interested in So, because men are more interested in casual sex, it's going to be not casual sex, it's going to be not casual sex, it's going to be not uncommon for a man to want to have sex uncommon for a man to want to have sex uncommon for a man to want to have sex with the woman who doesn't want to do with the woman who doesn't want to do with the woman who doesn't want to do so. so. so. >> Yep. >> Yep. >> Yep. >> And because men are willing to use >> And because men are willing to use >> And because men are willing to use violence sometimes to get what they violence sometimes to get what they violence sometimes to get what they want. want. want. >> Mhm. >> Mhm. >> Mhm. >> Every now and then you are going to have >> Every now and then you are going to have >> Every now and then you are going to have that situation where those those factors that situation where those those factors that situation where those those factors add up and the man's going to try to add up and the man's going to try to add up and the man's going to try to force the woman to have sex. That's not force the woman to have sex. That's not force the woman to have sex. That's not just found in our species. just found in our species. just found in our species. Uh males in in many species try to Uh males in in many species try to Uh males in in many species try to coerce coerce coerce women females rather in into sex. women females rather in into sex. women females rather in into sex. >> Mhm. >> Mhm. >> Mhm. >> It happens in our species. >> It happens in our species. >> It happens in our species. It's also been argued though that It's also been argued though that It's also been argued though that because uh preserving female choice is because uh preserving female choice is because uh preserving female choice is so important so important so important across the animal kingdom including in across the animal kingdom including in across the animal kingdom including in our own species, so important to women our own species, so important to women our own species, so important to women uh that that helps explain why sexual uh that that helps explain why sexual uh that that helps explain why sexual coercion and rape is so upsetting to coercion and rape is so upsetting to coercion and rape is so upsetting to women. You know, it's not that we women. You know, it's not that we women. You know, it's not that we haven't just been socialized for it to haven't just been socialized for it to haven't just been socialized for it to be upsetting to women. It's very very be upsetting to women. It's very very be upsetting to women. It's very very deep in uh females' nature to be upset deep in uh females' nature to be upset deep in uh females' nature to be upset by it because it compromises female by it because it compromises female by it because it compromises female choice. choice. choice. >> Oh, that's interesting. >> Oh, that's interesting. >> Oh, that's interesting. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> That's interesting because >> That's interesting because >> That's interesting because not not only not only is it [ __ ] not not only not only is it [ __ ] not not only not only is it [ __ ] heinous, but you know heinous, but you know heinous, but you know that because somebody because this male that because somebody because this male that because somebody because this male committed that behavior committed that behavior committed that behavior they've had to disregard the entire they've had to disregard the entire they've had to disregard the entire female-wide female-wide female-wide value that is supposed to be value that is supposed to be value that is supposed to be uh universally uh uh uh universally uh uh uh universally uh uh protected. protected. protected. >> Well, right. Well, I mean, she's evolved >> Well, right. Well, I mean, she's evolved >> Well, right. Well, I mean, she's evolved this tendency to be choosier this tendency to be choosier this tendency to be choosier >> Mhm. >> Mhm. >> Mhm. >> about who mates than men have. And she's >> about who mates than men have. And she's >> about who mates than men have. And she's got these mate choice criteria and uh got these mate choice criteria and uh got these mate choice criteria and uh that that's because she can have fewer that that's because she can have fewer that that's because she can have fewer offspring and therefore each offspring offspring and therefore each offspring offspring and therefore each offspring counts for more. So, she's got to be uh counts for more. So, she's got to be uh counts for more. So, she's got to be uh wiser in every mating decision that she wiser in every mating decision that she wiser in every mating decision that she makes. And this other male has come makes. And this other male has come makes. And this other male has come along along along and has just taken that away from her. and has just taken that away from her. and has just taken that away from her. Taken that choice away from her. Taken that choice away from her. Taken that choice away from her. Uh and has gone against the the so that Uh and has gone against the the so that Uh and has gone against the the so that she's evolved to be more to be choosy she's evolved to be more to be choosy she's evolved to be more to be choosy and and and and and and gone against that. gone against that. gone against that. >> I I I think that the >> I I I think that the >> I I I think that the inability of men inability of men inability of men to fully understand what fear of sexual to fully understand what fear of sexual to fully understand what fear of sexual violence must feel like violence must feel like violence must feel like >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> is one of the reasons why any guy >> is one of the reasons why any guy >> is one of the reasons why any guy who's seemingly sort of flippant or who's seemingly sort of flippant or who's seemingly sort of flippant or callous callous callous about any type of male-female about any type of male-female about any type of male-female aggression, even non-sexual violence aggression, even non-sexual violence aggression, even non-sexual violence >> Yeah, yeah. >> Yeah, yeah. >> Yeah, yeah. >> is treated with a very strong antibody >> is treated with a very strong antibody >> is treated with a very strong antibody response from from women. response from from women. response from from women. >> Indeed, yeah. And guys do >> Indeed, yeah. And guys do >> Indeed, yeah. And guys do you know, guys the idea of going to you know, guys the idea of going to you know, guys the idea of going to prison and being raped in prison prison and being raped in prison prison and being raped in prison obviously is is terrifying to a lot of obviously is is terrifying to a lot of obviously is is terrifying to a lot of guys. So, they they do get it to some guys. So, they they do get it to some guys. So, they they do get it to some degree. But, degree. But, degree. But, and I guess particularly when it comes and I guess particularly when it comes and I guess particularly when it comes to the sort of lower level stuff, like to the sort of lower level stuff, like to the sort of lower level stuff, like like I think in Buss's Batman book, he like I think in Buss's Batman book, he like I think in Buss's Batman book, he talks about research suggesting that men talks about research suggesting that men talks about research suggesting that men often will underestimate just how often will underestimate just how often will underestimate just how upsetting it is to women to be to be upsetting it is to women to be to be upsetting it is to women to be to be sexually harassed and to have stuff done sexually harassed and to have stuff done sexually harassed and to have stuff done to them against their will. And that's to them against their will. And that's to them against their will. And that's another very good example of a and a another very good example of a and a another very good example of a and a very important example of a failure of very important example of a failure of very important example of a failure of cross-sex mind reading where the guy cross-sex mind reading where the guy cross-sex mind reading where the guy just doesn't really appreciate just just doesn't really appreciate just just doesn't really appreciate just quite how upsetting it is for that to quite how upsetting it is for that to quite how upsetting it is for that to happen because if it would have happened happen because if it would have happened happen because if it would have happened in reverse if if it would have happened in reverse if if it would have happened in reverse if if it would have happened to him to him to him he might not like it, but he on average he might not like it, but he on average he might not like it, but he on average is not going to be quite so upset by it. is not going to be quite so upset by it. is not going to be quite so upset by it. >> It's interesting that people who denied >> It's interesting that people who denied >> It's interesting that people who denied sex differences seem to sort of not want sex differences seem to sort of not want sex differences seem to sort of not want to argue for parity that if women to argue for parity that if women to argue for parity that if women weren't so held back, they'd want to weren't so held back, they'd want to weren't so held back, they'd want to commit just as much violent crime as men commit just as much violent crime as men commit just as much violent crime as men do. do. do. >> Indeed, yeah, indeed. >> Indeed, yeah, indeed. >> Indeed, yeah, indeed. >> There's a directionality >> There's a directionality >> There's a directionality to to to the way that this analysis happens. the way that this analysis happens. the way that this analysis happens. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> They're Why is it not that we've got >> They're Why is it not that we've got >> They're Why is it not that we've got 50/50 in terms of homicides? Like that 50/50 in terms of homicides? Like that 50/50 in terms of homicides? Like that we should do. we should do. we should do. >> Yeah, yeah, yeah. be free to commit as >> Yeah, yeah, yeah. be free to commit as >> Yeah, yeah, yeah. be free to commit as just as many killings as they want to. just as many killings as they want to. just as many killings as they want to. >> Yeah, and they've just been kept down >> Yeah, and they've just been kept down >> Yeah, and they've just been kept down the fact that they're not doing it. the fact that they're not doing it. the fact that they're not doing it. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. >> Yeah, the patriarchy, the damn >> Yeah, the patriarchy, the damn >> Yeah, the patriarchy, the damn patriarchy. patriarchy. patriarchy. >> And I guess the thing is that they and >> And I guess the thing is that they and >> And I guess the thing is that they and then we all would want it all to come then we all would want it all to come then we all would want it all to come down. down. down. >> Mhm. >> Mhm. >> Mhm. >> And uh it's a good example of um how >> And uh it's a good example of um how >> And uh it's a good example of um how equality is not necessarily a good thing equality is not necessarily a good thing equality is not necessarily a good thing in itself. in itself. in itself. So So men are more aggressive than So So men are more aggressive than So So men are more aggressive than women. The solution to that is So So we women. The solution to that is So So we women. The solution to that is So So we want to kind of um want to kind of um want to kind of um reduce male violence. reduce male violence. reduce male violence. And in the process of doing that, we're And in the process of doing that, we're And in the process of doing that, we're going to reduce the size of the sex going to reduce the size of the sex going to reduce the size of the sex difference. difference. difference. >> Mhm. >> Mhm. >> Mhm. >> And And that's a that's a very good >> And And that's a that's a very good >> And And that's a that's a very good thing to do, but the reason it's a good thing to do, but the reason it's a good thing to do, but the reason it's a good thing to do is not cuz there's anything thing to do is not cuz there's anything thing to do is not cuz there's anything inherently wrong with the sex inherently wrong with the sex inherently wrong with the sex difference. It's because violence is difference. It's because violence is difference. It's because violence is bad. It's not cuz the sex difference is bad. It's not cuz the sex difference is bad. It's not cuz the sex difference is bad. It's cuz violence is bad. And we bad. It's cuz violence is bad. And we bad. It's cuz violence is bad. And we know that because another way to get rid know that because another way to get rid know that because another way to get rid of that sex difference and violence of that sex difference and violence of that sex difference and violence would be to increase the female level of would be to increase the female level of would be to increase the female level of violence. violence. violence. >> [laughter] >> [laughter] >> [laughter] >> And that would be >> And that would be >> And that would be big thumbs down on that, right? That is big thumbs down on that, right? That is big thumbs down on that, right? That is going to going to make the world a a going to going to make the world a a going to going to make the world a a worse place rather than a better place. worse place rather than a better place. worse place rather than a better place. >> [laughter] >> Point is, yeah, equality is not a good >> Point is, yeah, equality is not a good thing in itself. thing in itself. thing in itself. >> itself. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Okay, >> itself. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Okay, >> itself. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Okay, what about the differences in parenting? what about the differences in parenting? what about the differences in parenting? >> Differences in parenting, that's quite a >> Differences in parenting, that's quite a >> Differences in parenting, that's quite a controversial one, actually. Um that's controversial one, actually. Um that's controversial one, actually. Um that's one of the ones that people like one of the ones that people like one of the ones that people like least. The aggression sex difference, no least. The aggression sex difference, no least. The aggression sex difference, no worries about the parenting sex worries about the parenting sex worries about the parenting sex difference, people aren't so keen on. difference, people aren't so keen on. difference, people aren't so keen on. And that refers to the fact that And that refers to the fact that And that refers to the fact that in every culture, again, where we have in every culture, again, where we have in every culture, again, where we have good data, women do more of the direct good data, women do more of the direct good data, women do more of the direct parenting uh than than men do. parenting uh than than men do. parenting uh than than men do. Uh and they invest more in the young. Uh and they invest more in the young. Uh and they invest more in the young. They do more parental care. Um men in They do more parental care. Um men in They do more parental care. Um men in every culture do more than your average every culture do more than your average every culture do more than your average male chimpanzee or male walrus. male chimpanzee or male walrus. male chimpanzee or male walrus. But they they do less than women in But they they do less than women in But they they do less than women in every single culture. every single culture. every single culture. And it doesn't seem to just be because And it doesn't seem to just be because And it doesn't seem to just be because men are forcing women to do it. They do men are forcing women to do it. They do men are forcing women to do it. They do do seem to be average differences in do seem to be average differences in do seem to be average differences in terms of parental inclinations, with terms of parental inclinations, with terms of parental inclinations, with women being more interested in doing it women being more interested in doing it women being more interested in doing it uh than men are on on on average. uh than men are on on on average. uh than men are on on on average. And And And yeah, I guess the reason that it's yeah, I guess the reason that it's yeah, I guess the reason that it's controversial is that there's a concern controversial is that there's a concern controversial is that there's a concern that people are saying making up an that people are saying making up an that people are saying making up an excuse why you should do it. So So like excuse why you should do it. So So like excuse why you should do it. So So like the guys are using it as an excuse. It's the guys are using it as an excuse. It's the guys are using it as an excuse. It's just It's just natural that you should just It's just natural that you should just It's just natural that you should want to be changing the nappies and want to be changing the nappies and want to be changing the nappies and doing these things that coincidentally I doing these things that coincidentally I doing these things that coincidentally I would rather not have to do. would rather not have to do. would rather not have to do. >> Mhm. >> Mhm. >> Mhm. >> Um so that that I think is the concern. >> Um so that that I think is the concern. >> Um so that that I think is the concern. But in a way it's ironic. So, But in a way it's ironic. So, But in a way it's ironic. So, the fact that people consider it to be the fact that people consider it to be the fact that people consider it to be kind of an insult to say that on average kind of an insult to say that on average kind of an insult to say that on average women are more interested in parenting women are more interested in parenting women are more interested in parenting than men, than men, than men, um um um implies a negative valuation of implies a negative valuation of implies a negative valuation of parenting or doing more of the parenting or doing more of the parenting or doing more of the parenting. Because if it didn't imply a parenting. Because if it didn't imply a parenting. Because if it didn't imply a negative valuation of that, it would not negative valuation of that, it would not negative valuation of that, it would not be an insult to say that women on be an insult to say that women on be an insult to say that women on average are more average are more average are more >> one of my most >> one of my most >> one of my most one of my one of the best ideas that I one of my one of the best ideas that I one of my one of the best ideas that I think I've come up with over the last think I've come up with over the last think I've come up with over the last couple of years, which was the the soft couple of years, which was the the soft couple of years, which was the the soft signal of male expectations. signal of male expectations. signal of male expectations. >> Yeah, yeah, yeah. I think you mentioned >> Yeah, yeah, yeah. I think you mentioned >> Yeah, yeah, yeah. I think you mentioned that in when we met the first time, that in when we met the first time, that in when we met the first time, right? Was it? right? Was it? right? Was it? >> Yeah, yeah. Soft the soft bigotry of >> Yeah, yeah. Soft the soft bigotry of >> Yeah, yeah. Soft the soft bigotry of male expectations. It's male expectations. It's male expectations. It's It's like as if we treat the the male It's like as if we treat the the male It's like as if we treat the the male standard, what whatever men do, that's standard, what whatever men do, that's standard, what whatever men do, that's the standard of what what is right. And the standard of what what is right. And the standard of what what is right. And if women do it less, that's a bad thing if women do it less, that's a bad thing if women do it less, that's a bad thing and we should make them more like males. and we should make them more like males. and we should make them more like males. >> Mhm. >> Mhm. >> Mhm. >> But not so much not so much the reverse. >> But not so much not so much the reverse. >> But not so much not so much the reverse. Um yeah, and it is very ironic cuz Um yeah, and it is very ironic cuz Um yeah, and it is very ironic cuz >> It's really misogynistic worldview. >> It's really misogynistic worldview. >> It's really misogynistic worldview. >> It is, really, isn't it? It is. It is. >> It is, really, isn't it? It is. It is. >> It is, really, isn't it? It is. It is. And so to if we're taking a negative And so to if we're taking a negative And so to if we're taking a negative valuation of uh our parenting, valuation of uh our parenting, valuation of uh our parenting, which is what we are implicitly doing if which is what we are implicitly doing if which is what we are implicitly doing if we say that it's an insult to say women we say that it's an insult to say women we say that it's an insult to say women are more parental. We're implicitly are more parental. We're implicitly are more parental. We're implicitly uh uh uh if it is actually true that women on if it is actually true that women on if it is actually true that women on average are more parental by nature, average are more parental by nature, average are more parental by nature, then we're taking [snorts] a negative then we're taking [snorts] a negative then we're taking [snorts] a negative valuation of a more female typical trait valuation of a more female typical trait valuation of a more female typical trait and that is really sexist. and that is really sexist. and that is really sexist. >> Yeah. Yeah. What's the kibbutz >> Yeah. Yeah. What's the kibbutz >> Yeah. Yeah. What's the kibbutz experiment? experiment? experiment? >> Uh the kibbutz experiment So, there >> Uh the kibbutz experiment So, there >> Uh the kibbutz experiment So, there there there are um there there are um there there are um the there were these kibbutzim that they the there were these kibbutzim that they the there were these kibbutzim that they had in in uh Israel. So, these were had in in uh Israel. So, these were had in in uh Israel. So, these were these communes these communes these communes uh uh uh like highly egalitarian uh communes like highly egalitarian uh communes like highly egalitarian uh communes where they wanted to get rid of all where they wanted to get rid of all where they wanted to get rid of all traditional kind of structures including traditional kind of structures including traditional kind of structures including traditional male-female ways where the traditional male-female ways where the traditional male-female ways where the woman is expected to do all of the child woman is expected to do all of the child woman is expected to do all of the child care and the guys out of in the public care and the guys out of in the public care and the guys out of in the public doing the public stuff. She's at home doing the public stuff. She's at home doing the public stuff. She's at home doing the private stuff. doing the private stuff. doing the private stuff. So, what they did was they would um they So, what they did was they would um they So, what they did was they would um they would get all the kids would get all the kids would get all the kids and they would house them in communal and they would house them in communal and they would house them in communal houses. And then they would have houses. And then they would have houses. And then they would have dedicated adults within the group who'd dedicated adults within the group who'd dedicated adults within the group who'd be the primary primarily in charge of be the primary primarily in charge of be the primary primarily in charge of looking after all the kids. So, the kids looking after all the kids. So, the kids looking after all the kids. So, the kids weren't living under the the roof of weren't living under the the roof of weren't living under the the roof of their biological parents. They didn't their biological parents. They didn't their biological parents. They didn't think you know the idea was everyone think you know the idea was everyone think you know the idea was everyone should care for everyone should care for everyone should care for everyone rather than having this traditional what rather than having this traditional what rather than having this traditional what they they saw as uh as bourgeois they they saw as uh as bourgeois they they saw as uh as bourgeois uh uh uh approach where people are specifically approach where people are specifically approach where people are specifically interested in their own biological interested in their own biological interested in their own biological children. They want to get rid of that. children. They want to get rid of that. children. They want to get rid of that. Um they tried to Um they tried to Um they tried to they did manage to make it work for a they did manage to make it work for a they did manage to make it work for a while, but what happened was that while, but what happened was that while, but what happened was that just the parents hated it basically. The just the parents hated it basically. The just the parents hated it basically. The parents hated not having their own kids parents hated not having their own kids parents hated not having their own kids living with them under their under their living with them under their under their living with them under their under their roof. And they agitated and complained roof. And they agitated and complained roof. And they agitated and complained about it and and eventually it broke about it and and eventually it broke about it and and eventually it broke down. down. down. And [snorts] the interesting thing was And [snorts] the interesting thing was And [snorts] the interesting thing was that um although both parents hated it that um although both parents hated it that um although both parents hated it most of the the mothers particularly most of the the mothers particularly most of the the mothers particularly hated it. And a lot of the agitation hated it. And a lot of the agitation hated it. And a lot of the agitation came from the mothers more than the came from the mothers more than the came from the mothers more than the fathers. And it's a great example a fathers. And it's a great example a fathers. And it's a great example a great case study great case study great case study because we often hear that um that women because we often hear that um that women because we often hear that um that women are placed in the primary caregiver role are placed in the primary caregiver role are placed in the primary caregiver role by men. That men have kind of forced by men. That men have kind of forced by men. That men have kind of forced them into the into that role. But here them into the into that role. But here them into the into that role. But here was a case where actually was a case where actually was a case where actually uh the women in particular were uh the women in particular were uh the women in particular were rebelling against the male leaders to rebelling against the male leaders to rebelling against the male leaders to try to put themselves into that role try to put themselves into that role try to put themselves into that role instead. So, it's it's a another example instead. So, it's it's a another example instead. So, it's it's a another example of a very common phenomenon where you of a very common phenomenon where you of a very common phenomenon where you see certain behaviors and certain see certain behaviors and certain see certain behaviors and certain aspects of human nature aspects of human nature aspects of human nature that emerge and persist despite culture that emerge and persist despite culture that emerge and persist despite culture rather than because of culture. rather than because of culture. rather than because of culture. Culture's pushing in the opposite Culture's pushing in the opposite Culture's pushing in the opposite >> going against it. >> going against it. >> going against it. >> Exactly. >> Exactly. >> Exactly. >> Yeah. Yeah. I saw this really >> Yeah. Yeah. I saw this really >> Yeah. Yeah. I saw this really heartbreaking video of a heartbreaking video of a heartbreaking video of a woman on TikTok. Uh she was at work in a woman on TikTok. Uh she was at work in a woman on TikTok. Uh she was at work in a cubicle like like a sort of normal cubicle like like a sort of normal cubicle like like a sort of normal office cubicle and she had a screen up office cubicle and she had a screen up office cubicle and she had a screen up of maybe the of maybe the of maybe the daycare that her kid went to and she was daycare that her kid went to and she was daycare that her kid went to and she was seeing watching her kid seeing watching her kid seeing watching her kid say say say its first words or take its first steps. its first words or take its first steps. its first words or take its first steps. >> Mhm. >> Mhm. >> Mhm. >> And the it was just one of those ones >> And the it was just one of those ones >> And the it was just one of those ones with the caption over it that said uh with the caption over it that said uh with the caption over it that said uh like me being devastated that I'm at like me being devastated that I'm at like me being devastated that I'm at work while work while work while my my my kid is going through one of the most kid is going through one of the most kid is going through one of the most meaningful experiences at the start of meaningful experiences at the start of meaningful experiences at the start of its life and I'm missing it. its life and I'm missing it. its life and I'm missing it. >> It's tough, right? There's a real That's >> It's tough, right? There's a real That's >> It's tough, right? There's a real That's the the the uh the work family uh uh the work family uh uh the work family uh you know, clashing roles you know, clashing roles you know, clashing roles uh that that both sexes do experience, uh that that both sexes do experience, uh that that both sexes do experience, but it does seem to be um still a bigger but it does seem to be um still a bigger but it does seem to be um still a bigger deal to women than men. deal to women than men. deal to women than men. >> Yeah. It's not It's not It's certainly >> Yeah. It's not It's not It's certainly >> Yeah. It's not It's not It's certainly not something that not something that not something that people are happy to talk about matern- people are happy to talk about matern- people are happy to talk about matern- maternity leave and the lack of maternity leave and the lack of maternity leave and the lack of maternity leave as being kind of maternity leave as being kind of maternity leave as being kind of barbaric and I agree. I think it I mean barbaric and I agree. I think it I mean barbaric and I agree. I think it I mean the UK gives 9 months, which is still the UK gives 9 months, which is still the UK gives 9 months, which is still not enough, but feels at least remotely not enough, but feels at least remotely not enough, but feels at least remotely humane. humane. humane. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Um >> Um >> Um the US is basically once you're out of the US is basically once you're out of the US is basically once you're out of the the the hospital, you're back to work. hospital, you're back to work. hospital, you're back to work. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Uh >> Uh >> Uh but very few people I think but very few people I think but very few people I think it's not a big cultural conversation it's not a big cultural conversation it's not a big cultural conversation around what is missed by around what is missed by around what is missed by either the need to go back to work to either the need to go back to work to either the need to go back to work to keep yourself financially stable or the keep yourself financially stable or the keep yourself financially stable or the desire to go back to work because of desire to go back to work because of desire to go back to work because of expectations expectations expectations that have that have that have been adjusted on women about where their been adjusted on women about where their been adjusted on women about where their value comes from. This soft bigotry value comes from. This soft bigotry value comes from. This soft bigotry thing again. I don't want to be just a thing again. I don't want to be just a thing again. I don't want to be just a mom. mom. mom. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Uh but by being >> Uh but by being >> Uh but by being not just a mom, I'm also missing out on not just a mom, I'm also missing out on not just a mom, I'm also missing out on a lot of the joys of motherhood. a lot of the joys of motherhood. a lot of the joys of motherhood. It's a It's a very kind of It's a It's a very kind of It's a It's a very kind of It's kind of hard to win that situation. It's kind of hard to win that situation. It's kind of hard to win that situation. Women really don't have a good a good Women really don't have a good a good Women really don't have a good a good outcome there. outcome there. outcome there. >> Yeah, and people in general I mean in a >> Yeah, and people in general I mean in a >> Yeah, and people in general I mean in a way you know, there are there are these way you know, there are there are these way you know, there are there are these kind of trade-offs for everybody always kind of trade-offs for everybody always kind of trade-offs for everybody always and and choosing one option always does and and choosing one option always does and and choosing one option always does mean mean mean uh not choosing another one. I know that uh not choosing another one. I know that uh not choosing another one. I know that a lot of people a lot of people a lot of people solve that problem to some degree to the solve that problem to some degree to the solve that problem to some degree to the extent that it is solvable. A lot of extent that it is solvable. A lot of extent that it is solvable. A lot of women do by taking some time off you women do by taking some time off you women do by taking some time off you know, more time off, taking career break know, more time off, taking career break know, more time off, taking career break in other words when the kids are are in other words when the kids are are in other words when the kids are are young. young. young. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> But then particularly when they go to >> But then particularly when they go to >> But then particularly when they go to school, then, you know, getting back on school, then, you know, getting back on school, then, you know, getting back on the uh career career horse. the uh career career horse. the uh career career horse. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> What about differences between men and >> What about differences between men and >> What about differences between men and women in sexual jealousy? women in sexual jealousy? women in sexual jealousy? >> Um that's an interesting one. So, both >> Um that's an interesting one. So, both >> Um that's an interesting one. So, both are prone to it, like I mentioned. are prone to it, like I mentioned. are prone to it, like I mentioned. But for the reasons that But for the reasons that But for the reasons that uh you mentioned already, um men men's uh you mentioned already, um men men's uh you mentioned already, um men men's jealousy is more focused than women's on jealousy is more focused than women's on jealousy is more focused than women's on sex. sex. sex. So, a sexual infidelity, like like if So, a sexual infidelity, like like if So, a sexual infidelity, like like if you ask men, which would upset you more, you ask men, which would upset you more, you ask men, which would upset you more, uh your partner who you love going off uh your partner who you love going off uh your partner who you love going off and sleeping with somebody else, or just and sleeping with somebody else, or just and sleeping with somebody else, or just forming a close emotional bond with forming a close emotional bond with forming a close emotional bond with somebody else? Now, both of those are somebody else? Now, both of those are somebody else? Now, both of those are upsetting to most men, but men are more upsetting to most men, but men are more upsetting to most men, but men are more likely to say that the sex is more likely to say that the sex is more likely to say that the sex is more upsetting than just the bond. upsetting than just the bond. upsetting than just the bond. And And And pose the same question to women, and pose the same question to women, and pose the same question to women, and again, it's both of them are upsetting again, it's both of them are upsetting again, it's both of them are upsetting to to the vast majority of women, but to to the vast majority of women, but to to the vast majority of women, but they're more likely to say that the they're more likely to say that the they're more likely to say that the emotional bond, the sort of falling in emotional bond, the sort of falling in emotional bond, the sort of falling in love maybe falling in love with the love maybe falling in love with the love maybe falling in love with the other person, um that that's more other person, um that that's more other person, um that that's more upsetting than just sex per se. upsetting than just sex per se. upsetting than just sex per se. >> Huh. >> Huh. >> Huh. >> It's interesting, right? >> It's interesting, right? >> It's interesting, right? >> And it comes out of the fact that uh men >> And it comes out of the fact that uh men >> And it comes out of the fact that uh men have this this problem of paternity have this this problem of paternity have this this problem of paternity uncertainty. uncertainty. uncertainty. Like you say, no man in the history of Like you say, no man in the history of Like you say, no man in the history of the species has ever um the species has ever um the species has ever um no woman around the in the history of no woman around the in the history of no woman around the in the history of the species ever given birth and the species ever given birth and the species ever given birth and thought, "Now, how do I know that this thought, "Now, how do I know that this thought, "Now, how do I know that this is my kid and not some other woman's is my kid and not some other woman's is my kid and not some other woman's kid?" Whereas you know, for most men, kid?" Whereas you know, for most men, kid?" Whereas you know, for most men, more than likely it is their own kid. more than likely it is their own kid. more than likely it is their own kid. >> Huh. >> Huh. >> Huh. >> Um but there is always some non-zero >> Um but there is always some non-zero >> Um but there is always some non-zero chance that actually it's not, that it's chance that actually it's not, that it's chance that actually it's not, that it's the uh the good-looking next-door the uh the good-looking next-door the uh the good-looking next-door neighbor's kid instead. So, yeah, that's neighbor's kid instead. So, yeah, that's neighbor's kid instead. So, yeah, that's why sex is more important issue for men why sex is more important issue for men why sex is more important issue for men than women. Women are more likely to be than women. Women are more likely to be than women. Women are more likely to be left holding the baby, and that is not left holding the baby, and that is not left holding the baby, and that is not good for their fitness, good for their fitness, good for their fitness, >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> cuz it's going to reduce the time before >> cuz it's going to reduce the time before >> cuz it's going to reduce the time before they can have another kid, and uh just they can have another kid, and uh just they can have another kid, and uh just make things a lot more difficult for make things a lot more difficult for make things a lot more difficult for them. And so, them. And so, them. And so, the the the it's obviously not great if their it's obviously not great if their it's obviously not great if their partner sort of sleeps with somebody partner sort of sleeps with somebody partner sort of sleeps with somebody else. It's not great. They'd be very, else. It's not great. They'd be very, else. It's not great. They'd be very, very upset about it. Very often it very upset about it. Very often it very upset about it. Very often it destroys the relationship. destroys the relationship. destroys the relationship. >> But it's even worse >> But it's even worse >> But it's even worse for most women if the partner gets for most women if the partner gets for most women if the partner gets emotionally involved with somebody else emotionally involved with somebody else emotionally involved with somebody else because then because then because then the whether whether they want the the whether whether they want the the whether whether they want the relationship to end or not it's going to relationship to end or not it's going to relationship to end or not it's going to end cuz they're going to leave very end cuz they're going to leave very end cuz they're going to leave very likely going to leave and I set up shop likely going to leave and I set up shop likely going to leave and I set up shop with the other woman. with the other woman. with the other woman. >> I have an example >> I have an example >> I have an example that I heard about from a while ago that that I heard about from a while ago that that I heard about from a while ago that a a a a friend was on a friend was on a friend was on 23andMe or ancestry.com and one day in 23andMe or ancestry.com and one day in 23andMe or ancestry.com and one day in their 30s got an email notification their 30s got an email notification their 30s got an email notification saying you've got a new half-sister. saying you've got a new half-sister. saying you've got a new half-sister. >> Right. >> Right. >> Right. >> And it says, "How the [ __ ] have I got a >> And it says, "How the [ __ ] have I got a >> And it says, "How the [ __ ] have I got a new half-sister?" What it turns out was new half-sister?" What it turns out was new half-sister?" What it turns out was that 32 years ago that 32 years ago that 32 years ago the dad had had a one-night stand the dad had had a one-night stand the dad had had a one-night stand affair. affair. affair. That kid had never met the father, never That kid had never met the father, never That kid had never met the father, never been involved again. been involved again. been involved again. >> Right. >> Right. >> Right. >> But three decades later this situation >> But three decades later this situation >> But three decades later this situation unfolds and uh unfolds and uh unfolds and uh ob- obviously awful ob- obviously awful ob- obviously awful awful to try to live through. awful to try to live through. awful to try to live through. But I would have been fascinated to have But I would have been fascinated to have But I would have been fascinated to have done a study to work out what happens to done a study to work out what happens to done a study to work out what happens to what happens to sexual jealousy and what happens to sexual jealousy and what happens to sexual jealousy and intimacy jealousy and the fear of intimacy jealousy and the fear of intimacy jealousy and the fear of resources resource provisioning needing resources resource provisioning needing resources resource provisioning needing to be split to be split to be split >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> when you've gone past all of those >> when you've gone past all of those >> when you've gone past all of those things because you have this you know things because you have this you know things because you have this you know three decade as assuming that there's three decade as assuming that there's three decade as assuming that there's not been more infidelity this three not been more infidelity this three not been more infidelity this three decade example of someone decade example of someone decade example of someone committing to the family and raising the committing to the family and raising the committing to the family and raising the kids and doing the rest of the stuff and kids and doing the rest of the stuff and kids and doing the rest of the stuff and also the person that would have been the also the person that would have been the also the person that would have been the dependent dependent dependent is no longer in need of any of the is no longer in need of any of the is no longer in need of any of the provisioning. Do you understand what I'm provisioning. Do you understand what I'm provisioning. Do you understand what I'm getting at? To like separate out all of getting at? To like separate out all of getting at? To like separate out all of the typical areas trust infidelity all the typical areas trust infidelity all the typical areas trust infidelity all of those things obviously of those things obviously of those things obviously horrible horrible horrible but kind of kind of fascinating too. but kind of kind of fascinating too. but kind of kind of fascinating too. >> It is really fascinating and I wonder if >> It is really fascinating and I wonder if >> It is really fascinating and I wonder if this could be an example where this could be an example where this could be an example where proximate and ultimate proximate and ultimate proximate and ultimate could could just I thinking about the could could just I thinking about the could could just I thinking about the proximate and ultimate might solve the proximate and ultimate might solve the proximate and ultimate might solve the mystery cuz it's possible that cuz we mystery cuz it's possible that cuz we mystery cuz it's possible that cuz we don't necessarily think about don't necessarily think about don't necessarily think about we don't necessarily think it through we don't necessarily think it through we don't necessarily think it through well. We're not really necessarily well. We're not really necessarily well. We're not really necessarily thinking well, I'm going to lose this thinking well, I'm going to lose this thinking well, I'm going to lose this partner. He he's going to fall in love partner. He he's going to fall in love partner. He he's going to fall in love with her and he's going to go away and with her and he's going to go away and with her and he's going to go away and then I've got this baby and I'm going to then I've got this baby and I'm going to then I've got this baby and I'm going to have no one to help me with it. have no one to help me with it. have no one to help me with it. That's the evolutionary rationale, but That's the evolutionary rationale, but That's the evolutionary rationale, but it could just be a gut reaction like it could just be a gut reaction like it could just be a gut reaction like he's getting close to somebody else. I he's getting close to somebody else. I he's getting close to somebody else. I hate that. I feel jealous. I feel bad hate that. I feel jealous. I feel bad hate that. I feel jealous. I feel bad about it. And so that could kick him about it. And so that could kick him about it. And so that could kick him just as strongly 30 years down the line just as strongly 30 years down the line just as strongly 30 years down the line when it doesn't matter anyway. when it doesn't matter anyway. when it doesn't matter anyway. You know, like you say trust issues and You know, like you say trust issues and You know, like you say trust issues and those kind of things are going to kick those kind of things are going to kick those kind of things are going to kick him. him. him. Could kick him just just as strong Could kick him just just as strong Could kick him just just as strong even though evolutionarily the even though evolutionarily the even though evolutionarily the circumstances it doesn't matter anymore. circumstances it doesn't matter anymore. circumstances it doesn't matter anymore. The gut reaction that evolved The gut reaction that evolved The gut reaction that evolved might be might be might be might not discriminate those those might not discriminate those those might not discriminate those those details. details. details. >> Mhm. >> Mhm. >> Mhm. What do we know about sex differences in What do we know about sex differences in What do we know about sex differences in personality? personality? personality? >> Uh well, there are some and they're >> Uh well, there are some and they're >> Uh well, there are some and they're pretty consistent. They're not huge. Two pretty consistent. They're not huge. Two pretty consistent. They're not huge. Two of them are bigger of them are bigger of them are bigger bigger than the rest. Now if you're bigger than the rest. Now if you're bigger than the rest. Now if you're thinking about the big five personality thinking about the big five personality thinking about the big five personality traits. traits. traits. So so the ocean acronym, right? So So so the ocean acronym, right? So So so the ocean acronym, right? So openness to experience, neuroticism, openness to experience, neuroticism, openness to experience, neuroticism, extraversion, agreeableness, extraversion, agreeableness, extraversion, agreeableness, uh and uh uh and uh uh and uh conscientiousness. I got that in the conscientiousness. I got that in the conscientiousness. I got that in the wrong order. That wasn't ocean, but but wrong order. That wasn't ocean, but but wrong order. That wasn't ocean, but but those were the those were the those were the those are the five. those are the five. those are the five. So um the two sex differences that are So um the two sex differences that are So um the two sex differences that are largest and most consistent largest and most consistent largest and most consistent uh the sex difference in neuroticism, uh the sex difference in neuroticism, uh the sex difference in neuroticism, which is proneness to negative emotions which is proneness to negative emotions which is proneness to negative emotions like depression and anxiety plus like depression and anxiety plus like depression and anxiety plus emotional volatility. So ups and downs. emotional volatility. So ups and downs. emotional volatility. So ups and downs. Um and that is about a medium effect Um and that is about a medium effect Um and that is about a medium effect size. So I guess it's usually estimated size. So I guess it's usually estimated size. So I guess it's usually estimated between about 0.2 and 0.5 between about 0.2 and 0.5 between about 0.2 and 0.5 uh standard deviation between between uh standard deviation between between uh standard deviation between between men and women. There's that one and then men and women. There's that one and then men and women. There's that one and then the other consistent one is the sex the other consistent one is the sex the other consistent one is the sex difference in agreeableness. difference in agreeableness. difference in agreeableness. Uh and women on average score higher. Uh and women on average score higher. Uh and women on average score higher. Again, it's not a massive difference, Again, it's not a massive difference, Again, it's not a massive difference, heaps of overlap, but but again it's 0.2 heaps of overlap, but but again it's 0.2 heaps of overlap, but but again it's 0.2 to 0.5. I'd say it's a it's a medium to 0.5. I'd say it's a it's a medium to 0.5. I'd say it's a it's a medium small to medium sex difference. Uh as small to medium sex difference. Uh as small to medium sex difference. Uh as well. well. well. There are some sex differences in the There are some sex differences in the There are some sex differences in the other uh three big five traits. Um other uh three big five traits. Um other uh three big five traits. Um Often Often Often not always. You sometimes find that not always. You sometimes find that not always. You sometimes find that women score a bit higher women score a bit higher women score a bit higher conscientiousness, but but not always. conscientiousness, but but not always. conscientiousness, but but not always. Some studies don't find that. Uh Some studies don't find that. Uh Some studies don't find that. Uh extraversion, on average women slightly extraversion, on average women slightly extraversion, on average women slightly higher on extraversion, but but again, higher on extraversion, but but again, higher on extraversion, but but again, not always and it's it's a smaller not always and it's it's a smaller not always and it's it's a smaller difference if it is one. difference if it is one. difference if it is one. Uh and then Uh and then Uh and then uh uh uh Uh what's the other one? Uh what's the other one? Uh what's the other one? Conscientiousness? Conscientiousness? Conscientiousness? Openness. Yeah, openness slightly higher Openness. Yeah, openness slightly higher Openness. Yeah, openness slightly higher for for women as well or no difference. for for women as well or no difference. for for women as well or no difference. >> What's the explanation for why those >> What's the explanation for why those >> What's the explanation for why those would be the case? would be the case? would be the case? >> Uh well, I >> Uh well, I >> Uh well, I I don't think we know for sure, but my I don't think we know for sure, but my I don't think we know for sure, but my best guess so then neuroticism sex best guess so then neuroticism sex best guess so then neuroticism sex difference, so that's proneness to difference, so that's proneness to difference, so that's proneness to things like anxiety and depression, and things like anxiety and depression, and things like anxiety and depression, and I think women there's a general trend I think women there's a general trend I think women there's a general trend where women seem to be more where women seem to be more where women seem to be more self-protective than men. It's kind of self-protective than men. It's kind of self-protective than men. It's kind of the flip side of the fact that men take the flip side of the fact that men take the flip side of the fact that men take greater risks than women. greater risks than women. greater risks than women. They more risk-taky. I think that that They more risk-taky. I think that that They more risk-taky. I think that that evolved cuz that is um about trying to evolved cuz that is um about trying to evolved cuz that is um about trying to propel yourself up the status hierarchy. propel yourself up the status hierarchy. propel yourself up the status hierarchy. You got to take risks in order to do so. You got to take risks in order to do so. You got to take risks in order to do so. Uh and men have evolved to do that more Uh and men have evolved to do that more Uh and men have evolved to do that more than women cuz they have a higher than women cuz they have a higher than women cuz they have a higher maximum offspring number. maximum offspring number. maximum offspring number. But yeah, the flip side of of But yeah, the flip side of of But yeah, the flip side of of risk-taking is to be more self risk-taking is to be more self risk-taking is to be more self self-protective. Part of that is to be self-protective. Part of that is to be self-protective. Part of that is to be more prone to anxiety. Anxiety, the more prone to anxiety. Anxiety, the more prone to anxiety. Anxiety, the function of anxiety is to is the same as function of anxiety is to is the same as function of anxiety is to is the same as the function of the of the turtle shell. the function of the of the turtle shell. the function of the of the turtle shell. It's to protect yourself. It's about It's to protect yourself. It's about It's to protect yourself. It's about protection. protection. protection. So I think that's why women are more So I think that's why women are more So I think that's why women are more neurotic. Now, the agreeableness sex neurotic. Now, the agreeableness sex neurotic. Now, the agreeableness sex difference, so women on average are more difference, so women on average are more difference, so women on average are more agreeable. Um agreeable. Um agreeable. Um I don't have quite as strong an idea I don't have quite as strong an idea I don't have quite as strong an idea about that. I do think that Well, I about that. I do think that Well, I about that. I do think that Well, I guess I guess it could be the flip side guess I guess it could be the flip side guess I guess it could be the flip side of the fact that men are um sort of more of the fact that men are um sort of more of the fact that men are um sort of more more aggressive, more more pushy, and more aggressive, more more pushy, and more aggressive, more more pushy, and and that evolved like like we discussed and that evolved like like we discussed and that evolved like like we discussed to try to again get up the status to try to again get up the status to try to again get up the status hierarchy. hierarchy. hierarchy. Uh beat rival males to to go up in the Uh beat rival males to to go up in the Uh beat rival males to to go up in the world and achieve status and resources. world and achieve status and resources. world and achieve status and resources. Women have evolved to do less of that Women have evolved to do less of that Women have evolved to do less of that and one manifestation of that is the and one manifestation of that is the and one manifestation of that is the fact that they're more more agreeable, fact that they're more more agreeable, fact that they're more more agreeable, more friendly, more compassionate. more friendly, more compassionate. more friendly, more compassionate. Um Um Um and and just the way that women have and and just the way that women have and and just the way that women have evolved to form evolved to form evolved to form social bonds that does tend to social bonds that does tend to social bonds that does tend to have a high level of compassion have a high level of compassion have a high level of compassion and and understanding the other person. and and understanding the other person. and and understanding the other person. That seems to be more common in in women That seems to be more common in in women That seems to be more common in in women than men. than men. than men. >> What about the people versus things >> What about the people versus things >> What about the people versus things divide? divide? divide? >> Um so that's an interesting one, right? >> Um so that's an interesting one, right? >> Um so that's an interesting one, right? That is That is That is a bigger difference. a bigger difference. a bigger difference. That's actually quite a big difference. That's actually quite a big difference. That's actually quite a big difference. One of the bigger psychological sex One of the bigger psychological sex One of the bigger psychological sex differences and the effect size there is differences and the effect size there is differences and the effect size there is is like one standard deviation or even is like one standard deviation or even is like one standard deviation or even even a bit more when it comes to people even a bit more when it comes to people even a bit more when it comes to people people versus things. people versus things. people versus things. Very very consistent. I think there's a Very very consistent. I think there's a Very very consistent. I think there's a good case that it is not just due to good case that it is not just due to good case that it is not just due to socialization. So so one thing is that socialization. So so one thing is that socialization. So so one thing is that like I mentioned earlier, it has like I mentioned earlier, it has like I mentioned earlier, it has persisted for as long as we've been persisted for as long as we've been persisted for as long as we've been measuring it. Very very consistent. Even measuring it. Very very consistent. Even measuring it. Very very consistent. Even when the culture's trying to push when the culture's trying to push when the culture's trying to push against it and and get women more against it and and get women more against it and and get women more interested in things related professions interested in things related professions interested in things related professions traditionally male professions. traditionally male professions. traditionally male professions. Seems to be related as we also mentioned Seems to be related as we also mentioned Seems to be related as we also mentioned seems to be related to prenatal hormonal seems to be related to prenatal hormonal seems to be related to prenatal hormonal exposure. exposure. exposure. And one thing I haven't mentioned And one thing I haven't mentioned And one thing I haven't mentioned already is that it's also very very already is that it's also very very already is that it's also very very cross-culturally consistent. So there cross-culturally consistent. So there cross-culturally consistent. So there was one study that had about 200,000 was one study that had about 200,000 was one study that had about 200,000 people in it and found that sex people in it and found that sex people in it and found that sex difference in career-related interests. difference in career-related interests. difference in career-related interests. Found that in 53 out of 53 nations. Found that in 53 out of 53 nations. Found that in 53 out of 53 nations. And another one had half a million And another one had half a million And another one had half a million people and found that in 80 out of 80 people and found that in 80 out of 80 people and found that in 80 out of 80 nations. nations. nations. >> Wow. >> Wow. >> Wow. >> And that level is amazing, right? That >> And that level is amazing, right? That >> And that level is amazing, right? That level of cross-cultural uniform level of cross-cultural uniform level of cross-cultural uniform uniformity you just hardly ever find it uniformity you just hardly ever find it uniformity you just hardly ever find it in the social sciences, but you do find in the social sciences, but you do find in the social sciences, but you do find it for that difference. it for that difference. it for that difference. >> And this has been around for 100 years. >> And this has been around for 100 years. >> And this has been around for 100 years. >> Yep. Yep. >> Yep. Yep. >> Yep. Yep. >> First documented in 1911. >> First documented in 1911. >> First documented in 1911. >> Yeah yeah yeah, that's right. Yeah, >> Yeah yeah yeah, that's right. Yeah, >> Yeah yeah yeah, that's right. Yeah, that's when they first first documented that's when they first first documented that's when they first first documented it and it's been consistent ever since. it and it's been consistent ever since. it and it's been consistent ever since. It's one of the biggest differences and It's one of the biggest differences and It's one of the biggest differences and I always find that pretty interesting I always find that pretty interesting I always find that pretty interesting really cuz really cuz really cuz the kind of careers that we have today the kind of careers that we have today the kind of careers that we have today are evolutionarily novel. are evolutionarily novel. are evolutionarily novel. So you might not necessarily expect that So you might not necessarily expect that So you might not necessarily expect that to be one of the biggest sex to be one of the biggest sex to be one of the biggest sex differences. You know, interest in differences. You know, interest in differences. You know, interest in careers that just haven't existed careers that just haven't existed careers that just haven't existed throughout the vast majority of throughout the vast majority of throughout the vast majority of evolutionary history for our species. evolutionary history for our species. evolutionary history for our species. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> But but it's there. And very consistent. >> But but it's there. And very consistent. >> But but it's there. And very consistent. >> And there's been some deliberate effects >> And there's been some deliberate effects >> And there's been some deliberate effects attempts to try and close it as well. attempts to try and close it as well. attempts to try and close it as well. >> Indeed. And they're ongoing. And it just >> Indeed. And they're ongoing. And it just >> Indeed. And they're ongoing. And it just doesn't seem to doesn't seem to doesn't seem to doesn't seem to budge really. doesn't seem to budge really. doesn't seem to budge really. >> Mhm. >> Mhm. >> Mhm. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Interesting that the the soft bigotry of >> Interesting that the the soft bigotry of >> Interesting that the the soft bigotry of male expectations happens with get more male expectations happens with get more male expectations happens with get more women into STEM as well. women into STEM as well. women into STEM as well. >> Yes. Yeah, indeed. As opposed to get >> Yes. Yeah, indeed. As opposed to get >> Yes. Yeah, indeed. As opposed to get more men into traditional female more men into traditional female more men into traditional female dominant Exactly. Exactly. But um you dominant Exactly. Exactly. But um you dominant Exactly. Exactly. But um you know, Richard Reeves who he's been on know, Richard Reeves who he's been on know, Richard Reeves who he's been on the show, right? And and [clears throat] the show, right? And and [clears throat] the show, right? And and [clears throat] he's he's trying to he's he's trying to he's he's trying to get more men into the into those kind of get more men into the into those kind of get more men into the into those kind of professions. professions. professions. >> He's trying to do it, but again I think the reason that there is a I think the reason that there is a publicly lauded push toward getting more publicly lauded push toward getting more publicly lauded push toward getting more women into STEM is because of that soft women into STEM is because of that soft women into STEM is because of that soft bigotry. bigotry. bigotry. >> Agreed. >> Agreed. >> Agreed. >> And >> And >> And if you look I'm going to guess that if if you look I'm going to guess that if if you look I'm going to guess that if you look at the gender equality paradox, you look at the gender equality paradox, you look at the gender equality paradox, you're going to find that in more gender you're going to find that in more gender you're going to find that in more gender equal nations fewer women end up going equal nations fewer women end up going equal nations fewer women end up going into things-based roles. into things-based roles. into things-based roles. >> Yep. >> Yep. >> Yep. >> And more men go into things-based roles. >> And more men go into things-based roles. >> And more men go into things-based roles. >> That is exactly right. Yeah. And and >> That is exactly right. Yeah. And and >> That is exactly right. Yeah. And and just the interest in it is gets bigger just the interest in it is gets bigger just the interest in it is gets bigger in those in those cultures as well. in those in those cultures as well. in those in those cultures as well. >> Regardless of what you do, what you >> Regardless of what you do, what you >> Regardless of what you do, what you That's an interesting one to have to That's an interesting one to have to That's an interesting one to have to separate out what jobs are available to separate out what jobs are available to separate out what jobs are available to you and can you get from what ones you you and can you get from what ones you you and can you get from what ones you interested in. interested in. interested in. >> Exactly. And and both both expand. >> Exactly. And and both both expand. >> Exactly. And and both both expand. And it's really it is interesting. Now, And it's really it is interesting. Now, And it's really it is interesting. Now, I think that you were right that it does I think that you were right that it does I think that you were right that it does reflect the soft bigotry of male reflect the soft bigotry of male reflect the soft bigotry of male expectations. I think I think people who expectations. I think I think people who expectations. I think I think people who want to close those gaps also will want to close those gaps also will want to close those gaps also will typically point out typically point out typically point out that those kind of professions pay more that those kind of professions pay more that those kind of professions pay more as well. as well. as well. And that's that's another reason to try And that's that's another reason to try And that's that's another reason to try to close the gap. to close the gap. to close the gap. >> But that doesn't change the interest. >> But that doesn't change the interest. >> But that doesn't change the interest. >> It doesn't it doesn't change the >> It doesn't it doesn't change the >> It doesn't it doesn't change the interest. interest. interest. >> I mean, some people are interested in >> I mean, some people are interested in >> I mean, some people are interested in things because I I went to university things because I I went to university things because I I went to university and did business and did business and did business >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> because I thought I could get a job in >> because I thought I could get a job in >> because I thought I could get a job in it. it. it. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> So I >> So I >> So I became interested, but it was a very became interested, but it was a very became interested, but it was a very transactional type of interest. transactional type of interest. transactional type of interest. >> Interesting. >> Interesting. >> Interesting. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. So yeah, I So yeah, I So yeah, I how many people develop an interest in a how many people develop an interest in a how many people develop an interest in a thing because it's functionally useful thing because it's functionally useful thing because it's functionally useful for them to acquire resources in it? I I for them to acquire resources in it? I I for them to acquire resources in it? I I you know, not know people. I would say you know, not know people. I would say you know, not know people. I would say that in in a pretty wealthy society that that in in a pretty wealthy society that that in in a pretty wealthy society that more men than women do that. Now, in in more men than women do that. Now, in in more men than women do that. Now, in in poorer societies, I think it's more poorer societies, I think it's more poorer societies, I think it's more common for everybody to do that, you common for everybody to do that, you common for everybody to do that, you know? Some poorer societies you just know? Some poorer societies you just know? Some poorer societies you just think, well, I would love to do whatever think, well, I would love to do whatever think, well, I would love to do whatever it is, impressionistic dancing or it is, impressionistic dancing or it is, impressionistic dancing or whatever. But you get some in in high whatever. But you get some in in high whatever. But you get some in in high inequality and uh high poverty inequality and uh high poverty inequality and uh high poverty environments, you get some really environments, you get some really environments, you get some really interesting outcomes. You've seen interesting outcomes. You've seen interesting outcomes. You've seen Candace Blake's work on the female Candace Blake's work on the female Candace Blake's work on the female beautification. I I have, yeah. Remind beautification. I I have, yeah. Remind beautification. I I have, yeah. Remind me remind me the details there. They me remind me the details there. They me remind me the details there. They analyzed It was either Instagram posts analyzed It was either Instagram posts analyzed It was either Instagram posts or tweets and correlated them with the or tweets and correlated them with the or tweets and correlated them with the level of income inequality in the local level of income inequality in the local level of income inequality in the local ecology. And in areas with higher income ecology. And in areas with higher income ecology. And in areas with higher income inequality, women did more inequality, women did more inequality, women did more self-sexualization and more self-sexualization and more self-sexualization and more beautification. And supposedly, the beautification. And supposedly, the beautification. And supposedly, the proposed mechanism for that is when you proposed mechanism for that is when you proposed mechanism for that is when you see not only how high you could climb, see not only how high you could climb, see not only how high you could climb, but how low you could fall, you try to but how low you could fall, you try to but how low you could fall, you try to maximize your ability to be a assisted maximize your ability to be a assisted maximize your ability to be a assisted in being dragged out of that from a in being dragged out of that from a in being dragged out of that from a resource resource provision perspective. resource resource provision perspective. resource resource provision perspective. Yeah, it's it's it's really cool, but Yeah, it's it's it's really cool, but Yeah, it's it's it's really cool, but basically, it's just basically, it's just basically, it's just when when when material material material restrictions are in place, stuff gets restrictions are in place, stuff gets restrictions are in place, stuff gets warped and squirrely because people are warped and squirrely because people are warped and squirrely because people are concerned about survival. I mean, you've concerned about survival. I mean, you've concerned about survival. I mean, you've seen the um seen the um seen the um environmental security hypothesis as environmental security hypothesis as environmental security hypothesis as well about men are more attracted to well about men are more attracted to well about men are more attracted to bigger women in times of bigger women in times of bigger women in times of poor poor poor economy and more attracted to skinnier economy and more attracted to skinnier economy and more attracted to skinnier women in times of bad times of good women in times of bad times of good women in times of bad times of good economy. economy. economy. >> And and good Yeah, it's interesting, >> And and good Yeah, it's interesting, >> And and good Yeah, it's interesting, right? And there does seem to be pretty right? And there does seem to be pretty right? And there does seem to be pretty good data on that. I am not 100% good data on that. I am not 100% good data on that. I am not 100% persuaded of the evolutionary arguments persuaded of the evolutionary arguments persuaded of the evolutionary arguments for it, though. for it, though. for it, though. >> You could survive a famine, there's a >> You could survive a famine, there's a >> You could survive a famine, there's a famine imminent. You couldn't survive a famine imminent. You couldn't survive a famine imminent. You couldn't survive a famine, but it doesn't matter cuz we got famine, but it doesn't matter cuz we got famine, but it doesn't matter cuz we got loads of food. loads of food. loads of food. >> Indeed. And I mean, it does make sense. >> Indeed. And I mean, it does make sense. >> Indeed. And I mean, it does make sense. Like the the logic there does make Like the the logic there does make Like the the logic there does make sense, but I mean, is it the case that sense, but I mean, is it the case that sense, but I mean, is it the case that for a long enough fraction of human for a long enough fraction of human for a long enough fraction of human evolutionary history, evolutionary history, evolutionary history, Uh Uh Uh we had feast and famine feast and we had feast and famine feast and we had feast and famine feast and famines I'm sure we did have that, but famines I'm sure we did have that, but famines I'm sure we did have that, but with a feast periods with a feast periods with a feast periods big enough that people were actually big enough that people were actually big enough that people were actually getting bigger. I mean my impression is getting bigger. I mean my impression is getting bigger. I mean my impression is that hunter-gatherers they just didn't that hunter-gatherers they just didn't that hunter-gatherers they just didn't really get really get really get uh big enough that they would have been uh big enough that they would have been uh big enough that they would have been selected for that. selected for that. selected for that. >> very very very rare. It would have would >> very very very rare. It would have would >> very very very rare. It would have would have been almost impossible have been almost impossible have been almost impossible >> Indeed. >> Indeed. >> Indeed. >> before what 13,000 years ago. It would >> before what 13,000 years ago. It would >> before what 13,000 years ago. It would have been almost exactly impossible have been almost exactly impossible have been almost exactly impossible definitionally because you could only definitionally because you could only definitionally because you could only eat what you could carry. eat what you could carry. eat what you could carry. >> E- Exactly. >> E- Exactly. >> E- Exactly. >> no surplus at all. >> no surplus at all. >> no surplus at all. That's interesting. That's interesting. That's interesting. >> So I sort of feel like I can hear today >> So I sort of feel like I can hear today >> So I sort of feel like I can hear today we can [ __ ] grill him about it. We we can [ __ ] grill him about it. We we can [ __ ] grill him about it. We can talk about that, yeah, cuz he's a can talk about that, yeah, cuz he's a can talk about that, yeah, cuz he's a he's a fan of that, right? he's a fan of that, right? he's a fan of that, right? >> Yeah, he is. Well, he likes he likes the >> Yeah, he is. Well, he likes he likes the >> Yeah, he is. Well, he likes he likes the sort of behavioral ecology approach to sort of behavioral ecology approach to sort of behavioral ecology approach to things. He likes humans as plants as things. He likes humans as plants as things. He likes humans as plants as well as humans as as animals. So we grow well as humans as as animals. So we grow well as humans as as animals. So we grow toward the sun and how is the local toward the sun and how is the local toward the sun and how is the local ecology imposing and warping, uh but it ecology imposing and warping, uh but it ecology imposing and warping, uh but it definitely the the definitely the the definitely the the it's self-sexualization it's self-sexualization it's self-sexualization in high income inequality makes makes in high income inequality makes makes in high income inequality makes makes sense. sense. sense. >> Yeah. And I do agree with the general >> Yeah. And I do agree with the general >> Yeah. And I do agree with the general principle that uh we've evolved to principle that uh we've evolved to principle that uh we've evolved to respond to the ecology. respond to the ecology. respond to the ecology. I'm just not sure in that case it could I'm just not sure in that case it could I'm just not sure in that case it could have it could have evolved because of have it could have evolved because of have it could have evolved because of there weren't, you know, fatter people there weren't, you know, fatter people there weren't, you know, fatter people around the place for long enough. around the place for long enough. around the place for long enough. >> What about cognitive abilities? >> What about cognitive abilities? >> What about cognitive abilities? >> Cognitive abilities, um that's >> Cognitive abilities, um that's >> Cognitive abilities, um that's if anything is I would say that's if anything is I would say that's if anything is I would say that's probably the most controversial topic probably the most controversial topic probably the most controversial topic that I deal with in the book. that I deal with in the book. that I deal with in the book. >> Let's bury it 2 hours into the episode. >> Let's bury it 2 hours into the episode. >> Let's bury it 2 hours into the episode. >> [laughter] >> [laughter] >> [laughter] >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Um >> Um >> Um so there are some, I guess, few things so there are some, I guess, few things so there are some, I guess, few things to say uh to avoid or try to avoid to say uh to avoid or try to avoid to say uh to avoid or try to avoid getting canceled is first of all that getting canceled is first of all that getting canceled is first of all that there are there are no sex differences there are there are no sex differences there are there are no sex differences in the cognitive ability that matters in the cognitive ability that matters in the cognitive ability that matters most to most people, which is IQ or most to most people, which is IQ or most to most people, which is IQ or general cognitive ability. general cognitive ability. general cognitive ability. Um there is basically zero sex Um there is basically zero sex Um there is basically zero sex difference in the average there. Um now difference in the average there. Um now difference in the average there. Um now people when when you say that some people when when you say that some people when when you say that some people will say people will say people will say but that's because IQ tests have but that's because IQ tests have but that's because IQ tests have deliberately been constructed to deliberately been constructed to deliberately been constructed to create equal averages. create equal averages. create equal averages. Um and that is true. Some of them have Um and that is true. Some of them have Um and that is true. Some of them have some of them have, but there are some IQ some of them have, but there are some IQ some of them have, but there are some IQ tests tests tests >> the sex difference? >> the sex difference? >> the sex difference? >> Well, that that's the that's the theory. >> Well, that that's the that's the theory. >> Well, that that's the that's the theory. And so some of some of them have been And so some of some of them have been And so some of some of them have been deliberately deliberately deliberately created that way, but some haven't. created that way, but some haven't. created that way, but some haven't. But even those ones that haven't been But even those ones that haven't been But even those ones that haven't been created specifically to give the same created specifically to give the same created specifically to give the same the same outcome and balancing spatial the same outcome and balancing spatial the same outcome and balancing spatial versus verbal and and that kind of versus verbal and and that kind of versus verbal and and that kind of thing. thing. thing. Um even when they haven't they they give Um even when they haven't they they give Um even when they haven't they they give basically the same averages with basically the same averages with basically the same averages with representative samples of people. Now, representative samples of people. Now, representative samples of people. Now, sometimes you'll get sometimes you'll get sometimes you'll get uh some studies that will have males uh some studies that will have males uh some studies that will have males doing slightly better on average, but uh doing slightly better on average, but uh doing slightly better on average, but uh I'm persuaded by the argument that that I'm persuaded by the argument that that I'm persuaded by the argument that that is because the very low IQ males are is because the very low IQ males are is because the very low IQ males are more likely to fall off the map, fall more likely to fall off the map, fall more likely to fall off the map, fall through the cracks, and kind of through the cracks, and kind of through the cracks, and kind of disappear and and not end up on the disappear and and not end up on the disappear and and not end up on the samples samples samples >> Right. And the low IQ women bringing >> Right. And the low IQ women bringing >> Right. And the low IQ women bringing down bringing down the female average. down bringing down the female average. down bringing down the female average. Because we do have a higher variance. Because we do have a higher variance. Because we do have a higher variance. >> Yeah, right. >> Yeah, right. >> Yeah, right. >> Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. In cognitive >> Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. In cognitive >> Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. In cognitive abilities there's higher variance, yeah. abilities there's higher variance, yeah. abilities there's higher variance, yeah. Average is the same. The variance is Average is the same. The variance is Average is the same. The variance is slightly greater in men than in women. slightly greater in men than in women. slightly greater in men than in women. >> More male geniuses and more male >> More male geniuses and more male >> More male geniuses and more male retards. retards. retards. >> That is exactly right, but uh important >> That is exactly right, but uh important >> That is exactly right, but uh important note that that's quite a small effect. note that that's quite a small effect. note that that's quite a small effect. Um and that is Um and that is Um and that is this is the controversial area and this is the controversial area and this is the controversial area and that's maybe the most controversial that's maybe the most controversial that's maybe the most controversial claim within that controversial area. claim within that controversial area. claim within that controversial area. Um so I always like to follow that up by Um so I always like to follow that up by Um so I always like to follow that up by saying saying saying So that that people hate that cuz it's a So that that people hate that cuz it's a So that that people hate that cuz it's a cognitive advantage that gives an cognitive advantage that gives an cognitive advantage that gives an advantage to guys, but there are also advantage to guys, but there are also advantage to guys, but there are also other cognitive um other cognitive um other cognitive um ability sex differences that give the ability sex differences that give the ability sex differences that give the advantage to women. So women on average advantage to women. So women on average advantage to women. So women on average um are better verbally. Um that is one. um are better verbally. Um that is one. um are better verbally. Um that is one. And another one is that among the And another one is that among the And another one is that among the minority people who are really really minority people who are really really minority people who are really really gifted at maths, gifted at maths, gifted at maths, the women are more likely than than the the women are more likely than than the the women are more likely than than the men to also be gifted verbally. men to also be gifted verbally. men to also be gifted verbally. So they're they're more likely to be a So they're they're more likely to be a So they're they're more likely to be a double threat. double threat. double threat. >> [laughter] >> [laughter] >> [laughter] >> That's cool. >> That's cool. >> That's cool. >> Uh >> Uh >> Uh So that's So no average differences in So that's So no average differences in So that's So no average differences in IQ. IQ. IQ. Where you do find differences, they're Where you do find differences, they're Where you do find differences, they're just as likely to favor women as men. just as likely to favor women as men. just as likely to favor women as men. Some of them So in some cases men are Some of them So in some cases men are Some of them So in some cases men are slightly better. Spatial abilities, slightly better. Spatial abilities, slightly better. Spatial abilities, that's an example. that's an example. that's an example. Verbal abilities though, women tend to Verbal abilities though, women tend to Verbal abilities though, women tend to be somewhat better. And then, most of be somewhat better. And then, most of be somewhat better. And then, most of the differences are small. the differences are small. the differences are small. So, the personality They're smaller than So, the personality They're smaller than So, the personality They're smaller than the personality differences. They're the personality differences. They're the personality differences. They're much smaller than the differences in much smaller than the differences in much smaller than the differences in interests. So, when it comes to interests. So, when it comes to interests. So, when it comes to cognitive abilities, we're much more cognitive abilities, we're much more cognitive abilities, we're much more alike than different. alike than different. alike than different. But, having said all that, there are But, having said all that, there are But, having said all that, there are these average differences in these these average differences in these these average differences in these specific abilities. specific abilities. specific abilities. Um and that, like it or not, that just Um and that, like it or not, that just Um and that, like it or not, that just is the the fact of the matter. And is the the fact of the matter. And is the the fact of the matter. And that's been measured for that's been measured for that's been measured for uh 100 years as well. There's There's uh 100 years as well. There's There's uh 100 years as well. There's There's tons and tons of data on it. tons and tons of data on it. tons and tons of data on it. Typically found across cultures. Typically found across cultures. Typically found across cultures. Very likely, I think, to be to be partly Very likely, I think, to be to be partly Very likely, I think, to be to be partly innate. You know, that innate. You know, that innate. You know, that it's shaped by culture as well. You can it's shaped by culture as well. You can it's shaped by culture as well. You can You can minimize it. You can minimize it. You can minimize it. Uh Uh Uh and and I guess also, in principle, you and and I guess also, in principle, you and and I guess also, in principle, you could increase it as well. But, yeah, I could increase it as well. But, yeah, I could increase it as well. But, yeah, I would be surprised if it's just due to would be surprised if it's just due to would be surprised if it's just due to socialization. socialization. socialization. >> What about physical health? >> What about physical health? >> What about physical health? >> Physical health, um there are some >> Physical health, um there are some >> Physical health, um there are some definite sex differences there. definite sex differences there. definite sex differences there. Uh one of them, and the one that's Uh one of them, and the one that's Uh one of them, and the one that's probably best known, is that men are probably best known, is that men are probably best known, is that men are more prone to cardiovascular disease. more prone to cardiovascular disease. more prone to cardiovascular disease. That women are more prone to heart That women are more prone to heart That women are more prone to heart attacks in particular. Um at least among attacks in particular. Um at least among attacks in particular. Um at least among you know, like like in '50s and '60s. you know, like like in '50s and '60s. you know, like like in '50s and '60s. Until until very old age, men are more Until until very old age, men are more Until until very old age, men are more prone uh to those. prone uh to those. prone uh to those. Women are more prone to immune system Women are more prone to immune system Women are more prone to immune system disorders. They're more prone as well to disorders. They're more prone as well to disorders. They're more prone as well to to pain disorders. to pain disorders. to pain disorders. Uh Uh Uh men are more prone to most forms of men are more prone to most forms of men are more prone to most forms of cancer, other than sort of reproductive cancer, other than sort of reproductive cancer, other than sort of reproductive cancers that only strike one sex or the cancers that only strike one sex or the cancers that only strike one sex or the other. Uh men are somewhat more prone to other. Uh men are somewhat more prone to other. Uh men are somewhat more prone to to cancers as well. And actually, one of to cancers as well. And actually, one of to cancers as well. And actually, one of the big ones is that men die younger, on the big ones is that men die younger, on the big ones is that men die younger, on average, than men in the vast majority average, than men in the vast majority average, than men in the vast majority of cultures. of cultures. of cultures. Uh including even most cultures where Uh including even most cultures where Uh including even most cultures where women have high rates of of death during women have high rates of of death during women have high rates of of death during childbirth. So, we drew the the short straw there. So, we drew the the short straw there. >> Eunuchs in the Korean Chosen Dynasty >> Eunuchs in the Korean Chosen Dynasty >> Eunuchs in the Korean Chosen Dynasty lived longer than intact males of lived longer than intact males of lived longer than intact males of identical social standing, demonstrating identical social standing, demonstrating identical social standing, demonstrating that testosterone has a direct that testosterone has a direct that testosterone has a direct biological cost to male lifespan. biological cost to male lifespan. biological cost to male lifespan. >> That is very true. So, I touch on that >> That is very true. So, I touch on that >> That is very true. So, I touch on that in the book in a billion billion years in the book in a billion billion years in the book in a billion billion years of sex differences. I write about how of sex differences. I write about how of sex differences. I write about how actually most people probably don't know actually most people probably don't know actually most people probably don't know this, but we do actually already have an this, but we do actually already have an this, but we do actually already have an intervention that we could in principle intervention that we could in principle intervention that we could in principle do, do, do, which would completely obliterate the which would completely obliterate the which would completely obliterate the the average difference in lifespan the average difference in lifespan the average difference in lifespan between men and women, and would extend between men and women, and would extend between men and women, and would extend men's lifespan, and that is castration. men's lifespan, and that is castration. men's lifespan, and that is castration. It's got to be um castration before you It's got to be um castration before you It's got to be um castration before you hit puberty though. So, you know, sadly hit puberty though. So, you know, sadly hit puberty though. So, you know, sadly enough if anyone wants to take that enough if anyone wants to take that enough if anyone wants to take that approach, if you've already hit puberty, approach, if you've already hit puberty, approach, if you've already hit puberty, it's too late. Uh but yeah, the fact it's too late. Uh but yeah, the fact it's too late. Uh but yeah, the fact that it it would work is it's that it it would work is it's that it it would work is it's interesting. That show that it's interesting. That show that it's interesting. That show that it's testosterone that is making us bigger, testosterone that is making us bigger, testosterone that is making us bigger, stronger, more aggressive, but also stronger, more aggressive, but also stronger, more aggressive, but also shortening our our lifespan as well. shortening our our lifespan as well. shortening our our lifespan as well. >> If male mortality rates were lowered to >> If male mortality rates were lowered to >> If male mortality rates were lowered to female rates, Randy Nesse, who did the female rates, Randy Nesse, who did the female rates, Randy Nesse, who did the evolutionary medicine studies, evolutionary medicine studies, evolutionary medicine studies, calculated we would save more years of calculated we would save more years of calculated we would save more years of life life life than if we cured cancer. If male than if we cured cancer. If male than if we cured cancer. If male mortality were at female rates, we would mortality were at female rates, we would mortality were at female rates, we would save more years of life than if we cured save more years of life than if we cured save more years of life than if we cured cancer. cancer. cancer. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. So, we're so used to it, so used to the So, we're so used to it, so used to the So, we're so used to it, so used to the fact that men die younger, fact that men die younger, fact that men die younger, that we don't really think about it, I that we don't really think about it, I that we don't really think about it, I think. But then when you do think about think. But then when you do think about think. But then when you do think about it, yeah, you find that that is a is it, yeah, you find that that is a is it, yeah, you find that that is a is just a massive massive difference. just a massive massive difference. just a massive massive difference. >> And then we've got 88% of Darwin Award >> And then we've got 88% of Darwin Award >> And then we've got 88% of Darwin Award winners, which are people who die winners, which are people who die winners, which are people who die through spectacular self-inflicted through spectacular self-inflicted through spectacular self-inflicted stupidity, are men. But 90% of Carnegie stupidity, are men. But 90% of Carnegie stupidity, are men. But 90% of Carnegie Hero Awards, which are given to people Hero Awards, which are given to people Hero Awards, which are given to people who risk someone's life in order to save who risk someone's life in order to save who risk someone's life in order to save a stranger, also go to men. So, the risk a stranger, also go to men. So, the risk a stranger, also go to men. So, the risk sort of cuts both ways. It's almost sort of cuts both ways. It's almost sort of cuts both ways. It's almost exactly the same. 88% of people who die exactly the same. 88% of people who die exactly the same. 88% of people who die through stupid self-inflicted ways are through stupid self-inflicted ways are through stupid self-inflicted ways are guys, and 90% of people who risk one's guys, and 90% of people who risk one's guys, and 90% of people who risk one's life to save a stranger are also guys. life to save a stranger are also guys. life to save a stranger are also guys. >> Yeah. So, that is the trade-off there of >> Yeah. So, that is the trade-off there of >> Yeah. So, that is the trade-off there of of risk-taking, right? Is that and in of risk-taking, right? Is that and in of risk-taking, right? Is that and in fact almost by definition, taking risks fact almost by definition, taking risks fact almost by definition, taking risks can pay off big time, but can also kill can pay off big time, but can also kill can pay off big time, but can also kill you. you. you. >> Winners and losers. >> Winners and losers. >> Winners and losers. >> Yeah, exactly. And because men do more >> Yeah, exactly. And because men do more >> Yeah, exactly. And because men do more of that risk-taking, I mean, that's one of that risk-taking, I mean, that's one of that risk-taking, I mean, that's one of the reasons I think that um of the reasons I think that um of the reasons I think that um that that that you get more males than females will you get more males than females will you get more males than females will start a business that does really really start a business that does really really start a business that does really really well. well. well. Uh and people focus on that, and they Uh and people focus on that, and they Uh and people focus on that, and they think it's it's unfair, but it's it's think it's it's unfair, but it's it's think it's it's unfair, but it's it's also the other way around. Exactly, also the other way around. Exactly, also the other way around. Exactly, exactly right. Yeah, they're more exactly right. Yeah, they're more exactly right. Yeah, they're more >> likely to go in both directions. So, >> likely to go in both directions. So, >> likely to go in both directions. So, they're more likely to succeed cuz they they're more likely to succeed cuz they they're more likely to succeed cuz they take bigger risks, more likely to fail take bigger risks, more likely to fail take bigger risks, more likely to fail because they take bigger risks. Some because they take bigger risks. Some because they take bigger risks. Some people when they hear about that, they people when they hear about that, they people when they hear about that, they think, "Well, we should encourage women think, "Well, we should encourage women think, "Well, we should encourage women to take bigger risks." to take bigger risks." to take bigger risks." But the problem is that they are then But the problem is that they are then But the problem is that they are then to the extent that they do that, they're to the extent that they do that, they're to the extent that they do that, they're opening themselves up not only to opening themselves up not only to opening themselves up not only to greater chances of success, but also to greater chances of success, but also to greater chances of success, but also to greater chances of failure. greater chances of failure. greater chances of failure. >> Yeah, risk doesn't just cut one way. >> Yeah, risk doesn't just cut one way. >> Yeah, risk doesn't just cut one way. >> Yeah, well, totally. Exactly. And so, my >> Yeah, well, totally. Exactly. And so, my >> Yeah, well, totally. Exactly. And so, my solution there, I think, would be just solution there, I think, would be just solution there, I think, would be just tell everybody all the facts. Tell men tell everybody all the facts. Tell men tell everybody all the facts. Tell men and women all the facts. and women all the facts. and women all the facts. This approach to life, this risky This approach to life, this risky This approach to life, this risky approach approach approach uh cuts both ways. You could go up, you uh cuts both ways. You could go up, you uh cuts both ways. You could go up, you could go down. could go down. could go down. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Uh do do what you want with that with >> Uh do do what you want with that with >> Uh do do what you want with that with that knowledge. that knowledge. that knowledge. >> Mhm. >> Mhm. >> Mhm. >> And that's my approach to just uh a lot >> And that's my approach to just uh a lot >> And that's my approach to just uh a lot of gender gaps in general, right? So, of gender gaps in general, right? So, of gender gaps in general, right? So, like workplace gender gaps. like workplace gender gaps. like workplace gender gaps. Tell people all the facts. Try to get Tell people all the facts. Try to get Tell people all the facts. Try to get rid of I mean, just do everything we can rid of I mean, just do everything we can rid of I mean, just do everything we can to get rid of bias and barriers. But to get rid of bias and barriers. But to get rid of bias and barriers. But then, having done that, um then, having done that, um then, having done that, um respect people's choices about their own respect people's choices about their own respect people's choices about their own lives and how they want to live them and lives and how they want to live them and lives and how they want to live them and what careers they want to do. what careers they want to do. what careers they want to do. >> really interesting about that is if you >> really interesting about that is if you >> really interesting about that is if you try to compartmentalize the information that compartmentalize the information that people see people see people see >> Mhm. >> Mhm. >> Mhm. >> and you don't give them full access to >> and you don't give them full access to >> and you don't give them full access to the information, the information, the information, >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> what you end up with is actually a world >> what you end up with is actually a world >> what you end up with is actually a world in which there's more likely to be in which there's more likely to be in which there's more likely to be resentfulness, resentfulness, resentfulness, and you need to do more compensation on and you need to do more compensation on and you need to do more compensation on the back end because people have made the back end because people have made the back end because people have made decisions under imperfect information. decisions under imperfect information. decisions under imperfect information. >> Yeah. Yeah, that's exactly right. And um >> Yeah. Yeah, that's exactly right. And um >> Yeah. Yeah, that's exactly right. And um some of the steps I think that people some of the steps I think that people some of the steps I think that people take to try to take to try to take to try to balance out gender gaps in the balance out gender gaps in the balance out gender gaps in the workplace, I think, can have exactly workplace, I think, can have exactly workplace, I think, can have exactly that effect, creating uh resentment. that effect, creating uh resentment. that effect, creating uh resentment. Um Um Um This is one of the dangers really, I This is one of the dangers really, I This is one of the dangers really, I think, of think, of think, of overstating the extent to which gender overstating the extent to which gender overstating the extent to which gender gaps in occupations are due to bias and gaps in occupations are due to bias and gaps in occupations are due to bias and barriers. barriers. barriers. >> Mhm. >> Mhm. >> Mhm. >> Um >> Um >> Um Uh you know, I do think it's absolutely Uh you know, I do think it's absolutely Uh you know, I do think it's absolutely essential to essential to essential to look at the extent to which they are due look at the extent to which they are due look at the extent to which they are due to those facts. But I think we just to to those facts. But I think we just to to those facts. But I think we just to to bias barriers, I think we also though to bias barriers, I think we also though to bias barriers, I think we also though need to look at um the extent to which need to look at um the extent to which need to look at um the extent to which they're due to they're due to they're due to preferences as well. preferences as well. preferences as well. >> [gasps] >> [gasps] >> [gasps] >> Cuz if we don't, first of all, if if we >> Cuz if we don't, first of all, if if we >> Cuz if we don't, first of all, if if we say any kind of gaps that you see are say any kind of gaps that you see are say any kind of gaps that you see are products of discrimination, products of discrimination, products of discrimination, first of all, it's going to create first of all, it's going to create first of all, it's going to create unnecessary resentment cuz you're going unnecessary resentment cuz you're going unnecessary resentment cuz you're going to say, "Look look at these gaps, that's to say, "Look look at these gaps, that's to say, "Look look at these gaps, that's because of men mistreating women." because of men mistreating women." because of men mistreating women." >> [gasps] >> [gasps] >> [gasps] >> Second, it's going to lead to >> Second, it's going to lead to >> Second, it's going to lead to like like costly interventions to try to like like costly interventions to try to like like costly interventions to try to eliminate the gaps. And those eliminate the gaps. And those eliminate the gaps. And those interventions interventions interventions probably not going to work because probably not going to work because probably not going to work because they're targeting they're targeting they're targeting things that are not the causes, the things that are not the causes, the things that are not the causes, the primary causes primary causes primary causes of the gaps in the first place. of the gaps in the first place. of the gaps in the first place. Then what happens is cuz they don't Then what happens is cuz they don't Then what happens is cuz they don't work, work, work, we start doing more and more coercive we start doing more and more coercive we start doing more and more coercive things to try to eliminate the gaps. things to try to eliminate the gaps. things to try to eliminate the gaps. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> In some cases, we >> In some cases, we >> In some cases, we do anti-male discrimination kind of do anti-male discrimination kind of do anti-male discrimination kind of inadvertently just trying to eliminate inadvertently just trying to eliminate inadvertently just trying to eliminate the gaps. We get a bit more coercive and the gaps. We get a bit more coercive and the gaps. We get a bit more coercive and end up end up end up instead of getting rid of instead of getting rid of instead of getting rid of discrimination, which is what I think we discrimination, which is what I think we discrimination, which is what I think we should do, we end up reversing the should do, we end up reversing the should do, we end up reversing the direction of discrimination. direction of discrimination. direction of discrimination. Which I think is just creating It's not Which I think is just creating It's not Which I think is just creating It's not It's not undoing past injustices. It is It's not undoing past injustices. It is It's not undoing past injustices. It is just adding to the sum total of just adding to the sum total of just adding to the sum total of injustices. injustices. injustices. >> Exactly. Exactly. And reverse reverse >> Exactly. Exactly. And reverse reverse >> Exactly. Exactly. And reverse reverse ones. ones. ones. And then I can create a backlash among And then I can create a backlash among And then I can create a backlash among guys. guys. guys. And then also if we if we exaggerate the And then also if we if we exaggerate the And then also if we if we exaggerate the extent to which discrimination is behind extent to which discrimination is behind extent to which discrimination is behind those gender gaps. Um those gender gaps. Um those gender gaps. Um like in STEM, for instance, we say like in STEM, for instance, we say like in STEM, for instance, we say there's the the you have these gaps in there's the the you have these gaps in there's the the you have these gaps in STEM, more men than women go into it, STEM, more men than women go into it, STEM, more men than women go into it, and it's just because and it's just because and it's just because STEM is just riddled with sexism. It's a STEM is just riddled with sexism. It's a STEM is just riddled with sexism. It's a horrible horrible hotbed of sexism. horrible horrible hotbed of sexism. horrible horrible hotbed of sexism. That's going to That's going to That's going to put a lot of women off, girls and women put a lot of women off, girls and women put a lot of women off, girls and women off, who might otherwise go into it. So, off, who might otherwise go into it. So, off, who might otherwise go into it. So, ironically, this effort to try to to ironically, this effort to try to to ironically, this effort to try to to fight it could actually be, you know, fight it could actually be, you know, fight it could actually be, you know, create the the reverse. create the the reverse. create the the reverse. >> You touched on it earlier. What about >> You touched on it earlier. What about >> You touched on it earlier. What about differences in mental health? differences in mental health? differences in mental health? >> Mental health, >> Mental health, >> Mental health, so so so there's the neuroticism sex difference, there's the neuroticism sex difference, there's the neuroticism sex difference, first of all. Women are more prone to first of all. Women are more prone to first of all. Women are more prone to depression and anxiety, just sort of depression and anxiety, just sort of depression and anxiety, just sort of day-to-day depression and anxiety, day-to-day depression and anxiety, day-to-day depression and anxiety, um, than clinical levels of it. um, than clinical levels of it. um, than clinical levels of it. But, at the extreme of that But, at the extreme of that But, at the extreme of that distribution, they are also more prone distribution, they are also more prone distribution, they are also more prone to clinical depression and clinical to clinical depression and clinical to clinical depression and clinical anxiety disorders. anxiety disorders. anxiety disorders. >> Mhm. >> Mhm. >> Mhm. >> Uh, men are slightly more prone to >> Uh, men are slightly more prone to >> Uh, men are slightly more prone to schizophrenia. schizophrenia. schizophrenia. Men are much more prone to Men are much more prone to Men are much more prone to like antisocial personality disorders, like antisocial personality disorders, like antisocial personality disorders, sociopathy, psychopathy, um, more likely sociopathy, psychopathy, um, more likely sociopathy, psychopathy, um, more likely to be psychopaths. Mhm. to be psychopaths. Mhm. to be psychopaths. Mhm. What else is there? I'll tell you one What else is there? I'll tell you one What else is there? I'll tell you one that we don't find a sex difference is that we don't find a sex difference is that we don't find a sex difference is bipolar disorder. That is, I'd say in bipolar disorder. That is, I'd say in bipolar disorder. That is, I'd say in the book that that's the the least the book that that's the the least the book that that's the the least sexist disorder on record. sexist disorder on record. sexist disorder on record. Because it's basically the same, uh, Because it's basically the same, uh, Because it's basically the same, uh, across cultures it's about the same across cultures it's about the same across cultures it's about the same frequency in both sexes. frequency in both sexes. frequency in both sexes. >> What's your explanation for why we would >> What's your explanation for why we would >> What's your explanation for why we would have these differences in mental health? have these differences in mental health? have these differences in mental health? >> Well, with the depression and anxiety, >> Well, with the depression and anxiety, >> Well, with the depression and anxiety, I think that's just a, um, side effect I think that's just a, um, side effect I think that's just a, um, side effect of the neuroticism sex difference. So, of the neuroticism sex difference. So, of the neuroticism sex difference. So, at at lower levels, it's adaptive for at at lower levels, it's adaptive for at at lower levels, it's adaptive for women to be, girls as well, but women to be, girls as well, but women to be, girls as well, but especially women to be somewhat more especially women to be somewhat more especially women to be somewhat more anxiety-prone because they they protect anxiety-prone because they they protect anxiety-prone because they they protect themselves more and they're not taking themselves more and they're not taking themselves more and they're not taking risks, risks, risks, uh, in the way that is more adaptive for uh, in the way that is more adaptive for uh, in the way that is more adaptive for males. males. males. >> Mhm. >> Mhm. >> Mhm. >> Um, because of the higher maximum >> Um, because of the higher maximum >> Um, because of the higher maximum offspring number. Um, offspring number. Um, offspring number. Um, I So, it's adaptive at that level, but I I So, it's adaptive at that level, but I I So, it's adaptive at that level, but I think that cuz you have a distribution, think that cuz you have a distribution, think that cuz you have a distribution, it it means that inevitably some people it it means that inevitably some people it it means that inevitably some people are going to be the extreme of that are going to be the extreme of that are going to be the extreme of that distribution. I I I don't think it's distribution. I I I don't think it's distribution. I I I don't think it's actually adaptive out there. So, I don't actually adaptive out there. So, I don't actually adaptive out there. So, I don't accept adaptive explanations for accept adaptive explanations for accept adaptive explanations for clinical depression or clinical levels clinical depression or clinical levels clinical depression or clinical levels of anxiety disorders. of anxiety disorders. of anxiety disorders. >> Mhm. >> Mhm. >> Mhm. >> I think that that is the sort of, uh, >> I think that that is the sort of, uh, >> I think that that is the sort of, uh, non-adaptive or actually maladaptive, non-adaptive or actually maladaptive, non-adaptive or actually maladaptive, often, byproduct of sex differences. often, byproduct of sex differences. often, byproduct of sex differences. >> Kind of a spandrel, yeah. So, just a >> Kind of a spandrel, yeah. So, just a >> Kind of a spandrel, yeah. So, just a side effect, um, exactly, of differences side effect, um, exactly, of differences side effect, um, exactly, of differences that closer to the mean are adaptive. that closer to the mean are adaptive. that closer to the mean are adaptive. >> Mhm. >> Mhm. >> Mhm. >> The schizophrenia difference, I don't >> The schizophrenia difference, I don't >> The schizophrenia difference, I don't have a theory about that why that is and have a theory about that why that is and have a theory about that why that is and I don't think there is that there is a I don't think there is that there is a I don't think there is that there is a theory yet about why that is more common theory yet about why that is more common theory yet about why that is more common among men than women. among men than women. among men than women. >> Mhm. >> Mhm. >> Mhm. >> Uh, some that I didn't mention, >> Uh, some that I didn't mention, >> Uh, some that I didn't mention, actually, autism is more common among actually, autism is more common among actually, autism is more common among boys and girls. Uh boys and girls. Uh boys and girls. Uh ADHD is more common among ADHD is more common among ADHD is more common among uh boys and girls as well. uh boys and girls as well. uh boys and girls as well. Um so yeah, ADHD I think that again Um so yeah, ADHD I think that again Um so yeah, ADHD I think that again that's just a sort of offshoot of the that's just a sort of offshoot of the that's just a sort of offshoot of the fact that boys are kind of more fact that boys are kind of more fact that boys are kind of more active on average than girls active on average than girls active on average than girls and sort of less attentive and more and sort of less attentive and more and sort of less attentive and more likely to get distracted and run running likely to get distracted and run running likely to get distracted and run running around the place. And it's not a problem around the place. And it's not a problem around the place. And it's not a problem at in the usual I mean it might be at in the usual I mean it might be at in the usual I mean it might be irritating for parents and teachers, but irritating for parents and teachers, but irritating for parents and teachers, but it's not a it's not a it's not a big problem in the normal uh range, but big problem in the normal uh range, but big problem in the normal uh range, but at the extremes it is a quite a problem. at the extremes it is a quite a problem. at the extremes it is a quite a problem. And it's a problem more often suffered And it's a problem more often suffered And it's a problem more often suffered by males than females as an offshoot of by males than females as an offshoot of by males than females as an offshoot of the differences at the mean. the differences at the mean. the differences at the mean. >> Mhm. >> Mhm. >> Mhm. I think going through all of this, doing I think going through all of this, doing I think going through all of this, doing all of the the research obviously you've all of the the research obviously you've all of the the research obviously you've been deep in this for a long time. been deep in this for a long time. been deep in this for a long time. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> And then doing the book, what happens or >> And then doing the book, what happens or >> And then doing the book, what happens or what's your fear when people don't what's your fear when people don't what's your fear when people don't respect sex differences or they deny respect sex differences or they deny respect sex differences or they deny them? What them? What them? What what's the sort of world that we live in what's the sort of world that we live in what's the sort of world that we live in if that happens? if that happens? if that happens? >> It's a good question and I think it's a >> It's a good question and I think it's a >> It's a good question and I think it's a particularly good question because we're particularly good question because we're particularly good question because we're always focusing on the dangers of always focusing on the dangers of always focusing on the dangers of exaggerating sex differences and and exaggerating sex differences and and exaggerating sex differences and and moralizing sex differences. I think moralizing sex differences. I think moralizing sex differences. I think there are lots of problems with doing there are lots of problems with doing there are lots of problems with doing that and we need to be careful not to do that and we need to be careful not to do that and we need to be careful not to do it. Um but where I think I disagree with it. Um but where I think I disagree with it. Um but where I think I disagree with a lot of folks is that I I think that a lot of folks is that I I think that a lot of folks is that I I think that there are also problems with doing the there are also problems with doing the there are also problems with doing the reverse. I think there are also problems reverse. I think there are also problems reverse. I think there are also problems with minimizing sex differences and with minimizing sex differences and with minimizing sex differences and denying them. denying them. denying them. Um so one thing is that just as in Um so one thing is that just as in Um so one thing is that just as in exactly the same way that some people exactly the same way that some people exactly the same way that some people who exaggerate and moralize sex who exaggerate and moralize sex who exaggerate and moralize sex differences, they try to push people differences, they try to push people differences, they try to push people into traditional gender roles. into traditional gender roles. into traditional gender roles. People who deny the differences or or People who deny the differences or or People who deny the differences or or massively minimize them, they're in massively minimize them, they're in massively minimize them, they're in danger of trying to push people out of danger of trying to push people out of danger of trying to push people out of gender roles. So kind of replacing one gender roles. So kind of replacing one gender roles. So kind of replacing one gender straightjacket with a with gender straightjacket with a with gender straightjacket with a with another unisex gender straight another unisex gender straight another unisex gender straight straightjacket or like a maybe reversed straightjacket or like a maybe reversed straightjacket or like a maybe reversed gender role reversed uh straightjacket. gender role reversed uh straightjacket. gender role reversed uh straightjacket. Um and then we've actually touched on Um and then we've actually touched on Um and then we've actually touched on another of the big problems I think with another of the big problems I think with another of the big problems I think with minimizing the differences, which is the minimizing the differences, which is the minimizing the differences, which is the fact that trying to explain gender gaps fact that trying to explain gender gaps fact that trying to explain gender gaps in society like occupational gender in society like occupational gender in society like occupational gender gaps, there's just a whole host of gaps, there's just a whole host of gaps, there's just a whole host of problems with doing that that we that we problems with doing that that we that we problems with doing that that we that we discussed. discussed. discussed. Um, Um, Um, other problems other problems other problems uh, with minimizing sex differences is uh, with minimizing sex differences is uh, with minimizing sex differences is that there are certain that there are certain that there are certain physical health problems and and mental physical health problems and and mental physical health problems and and mental health problems health problems health problems um, that so so not only do they um, that so so not only do they um, that so so not only do they frequency of the of different problems frequency of the of different problems frequency of the of different problems differ between the sexes, sometimes they differ between the sexes, sometimes they differ between the sexes, sometimes they um, um, um, symptoms differ as well. They they symptoms differ as well. They they symptoms differ as well. They they present differently. So like present differently. So like present differently. So like cardiovascular problems present cardiovascular problems present cardiovascular problems present differently for women than men. Women differently for women than men. Women differently for women than men. Women are more likely than men to have are more likely than men to have are more likely than men to have shortness of breath as as a as a symptom shortness of breath as as a as a symptom shortness of breath as as a as a symptom rather than sort of shooting pains down rather than sort of shooting pains down rather than sort of shooting pains down the arms and the other kind of classic the arms and the other kind of classic the arms and the other kind of classic problems like that. And if you don't problems like that. And if you don't problems like that. And if you don't focus on sex differences, you might be focus on sex differences, you might be focus on sex differences, you might be more likely to overlook the symptoms of more likely to overlook the symptoms of more likely to overlook the symptoms of heart attacks in women. Traditionally, heart attacks in women. Traditionally, heart attacks in women. Traditionally, doctors and people themselves have been doctors and people themselves have been doctors and people themselves have been have overlooked it for that reason have overlooked it for that reason have overlooked it for that reason because they've underestimated the sex because they've underestimated the sex because they've underestimated the sex differences. differences. differences. Uh, mental health-wise, same deal. So, Uh, mental health-wise, same deal. So, Uh, mental health-wise, same deal. So, even though autism is more common among even though autism is more common among even though autism is more common among boys and girls, there is a strong case boys and girls, there is a strong case boys and girls, there is a strong case that it's under-diagnosed in girls. that it's under-diagnosed in girls. that it's under-diagnosed in girls. And part of the reason for that is that And part of the reason for that is that And part of the reason for that is that it it presents somewhat differently in it it presents somewhat differently in it it presents somewhat differently in girls. It's less likely, for instance, girls. It's less likely, for instance, girls. It's less likely, for instance, to involve repetitive behaviors. So, to involve repetitive behaviors. So, to involve repetitive behaviors. So, people might not know if they don't if people might not know if they don't if people might not know if they don't if they're not aware of that sex they're not aware of that sex they're not aware of that sex difference, they might overlook it in difference, they might overlook it in difference, they might overlook it in girls. And that means girls won't get girls. And that means girls won't get girls. And that means girls won't get the help that they need. the help that they need. the help that they need. Uh, and yeah, likewise with um, social Uh, and yeah, likewise with um, social Uh, and yeah, likewise with um, social problems. Uh, if you're looking at problems. Uh, if you're looking at problems. Uh, if you're looking at social problems like intimate partner social problems like intimate partner social problems like intimate partner abuse, abuse, abuse, um, if we assume that all intimate um, if we assume that all intimate um, if we assume that all intimate partner abuse only goes in one partner abuse only goes in one partner abuse only goes in one direction, direction, direction, uh, like male-to-female, uh, like male-to-female, uh, like male-to-female, uh, then we're going to uh, then we're going to uh, then we're going to like underestimate the extent to which like underestimate the extent to which like underestimate the extent to which it sometimes goes in the in the other it sometimes goes in the in the other it sometimes goes in the in the other direction. direction. direction. Um, yeah, just so you know, Um, yeah, just so you know, Um, yeah, just so you know, >> of that is bidirectional, right? >> of that is bidirectional, right? >> of that is bidirectional, right? >> Uh, at at low levels it is, yeah. Sort >> Uh, at at low levels it is, yeah. Sort >> Uh, at at low levels it is, yeah. Sort of low levels, um, verbal of low levels, um, verbal of low levels, um, verbal abuse, pushing and shoving. And abuse, pushing and shoving. And abuse, pushing and shoving. And actually, in the West, there's even some actually, in the West, there's even some actually, in the West, there's even some data suggesting that data suggesting that data suggesting that like verbal abuse might be more common like verbal abuse might be more common like verbal abuse might be more common women toward men. women toward men. women toward men. Other cultures that's not the case Other cultures that's not the case Other cultures that's not the case and and it's more likely men to women. and and it's more likely men to women. and and it's more likely men to women. And when it comes to severe And when it comes to severe And when it comes to severe >> the equality paradox >> the equality paradox >> the equality paradox >> Indeed. >> Indeed. >> Indeed. When it comes to severe aggression When it comes to severe aggression When it comes to severe aggression though, even even in the West, men do though, even even in the West, men do though, even even in the West, men do predominate. predominate. predominate. But you know, But you know, But you know, it's not 100% it's not 100% it's not 100% >> And what are the harms of exaggerating >> And what are the harms of exaggerating >> And what are the harms of exaggerating sex differences? sex differences? sex differences? >> So one of them is trying to push push >> So one of them is trying to push push >> So one of them is trying to push push people into people into people into traditional gender roles and like if you traditional gender roles and like if you traditional gender roles and like if you just let people do what they want just let people do what they want just let people do what they want probably a majority going to kind of probably a majority going to kind of probably a majority going to kind of gravitate in the direction in gravitate in the direction in gravitate in the direction in traditional directions. traditional directions. traditional directions. But not everyone does. But not everyone does. But not everyone does. We cuz we don't have We cuz we don't have We cuz we don't have massive massive sex differences, massive massive sex differences, massive massive sex differences, somewhat modest sex differences. There somewhat modest sex differences. There somewhat modest sex differences. There always going to be some folks who always going to be some folks who always going to be some folks who are not going to want to go into the are not going to want to go into the are not going to want to go into the traditional directions and in my view, traditional directions and in my view, traditional directions and in my view, my let people be themselves view, would my let people be themselves view, would my let people be themselves view, would say well that's fine, just let them let say well that's fine, just let them let say well that's fine, just let them let them be themselves. It it doesn't them be themselves. It it doesn't them be themselves. It it doesn't matter. matter. matter. >> But if you exaggerate and moralize sex >> But if you exaggerate and moralize sex >> But if you exaggerate and moralize sex differences, you're unlikely to think differences, you're unlikely to think differences, you're unlikely to think that. You're going to think well no no, that. You're going to think well no no, that. You're going to think well no no, this is the way of nature. this is the way of nature. this is the way of nature. Any exceptions to the rule that is by Any exceptions to the rule that is by Any exceptions to the rule that is by definition a problem and we need to push definition a problem and we need to push definition a problem and we need to push people into into those roles. people into into those roles. people into into those roles. >> What else? >> What else? >> What else? Other problems with the exaggeration Other problems with the exaggeration Other problems with the exaggeration differences. If you exaggerate the differences. If you exaggerate the differences. If you exaggerate the frequency of cardiovascular health frequency of cardiovascular health frequency of cardiovascular health problems, you will say well you find problems, you will say well you find problems, you will say well you find them in men not women. So that's another them in men not women. So that's another them in men not women. So that's another reason that you might overlook them in reason that you might overlook them in reason that you might overlook them in women. women. women. Just because you just Just because you just Just because you just it doesn't occur to you that okay, she's it doesn't occur to you that okay, she's it doesn't occur to you that okay, she's got these symptoms. What would that be? got these symptoms. What would that be? got these symptoms. What would that be? Well, it's not going to be Well, it's not going to be Well, it's not going to be cardiovascular problems cuz that those cardiovascular problems cuz that those cardiovascular problems cuz that those are men's problems. are men's problems. are men's problems. Get the same thing with with mental Get the same thing with with mental Get the same thing with with mental health problems. If you're really health problems. If you're really health problems. If you're really fixated on the fact that depression for fixated on the fact that depression for fixated on the fact that depression for instance is more common among women than instance is more common among women than instance is more common among women than men, you might overlook it in men. men, you might overlook it in men. men, you might overlook it in men. Because you're exaggerating the size of Because you're exaggerating the size of Because you're exaggerating the size of the sex difference and you know, like a the sex difference and you know, like a the sex difference and you know, like a significant minority of people who significant minority of people who significant minority of people who suffer depression are men. You you suffer depression are men. You you suffer depression are men. You you a third of cases are guys. a third of cases are guys. a third of cases are guys. >> [snorts] >> [snorts] >> [snorts] >> Um so, if you exaggerate that >> Um so, if you exaggerate that >> Um so, if you exaggerate that difference, uh you might not be on the difference, uh you might not be on the difference, uh you might not be on the lookout for them. Anxiety disorders as lookout for them. Anxiety disorders as lookout for them. Anxiety disorders as well, well, well, so and social problems, yes, so social so and social problems, yes, so social so and social problems, yes, so social problems like um problems like um problems like um and interpersonal violence, sexual and interpersonal violence, sexual and interpersonal violence, sexual harassment, if you exaggerate the extent harassment, if you exaggerate the extent harassment, if you exaggerate the extent of those, of those, of those, you are more likely to focus on you are more likely to focus on you are more likely to focus on just the cases where men are doing it to just the cases where men are doing it to just the cases where men are doing it to women. women. women. And those are the majority of the cases, And those are the majority of the cases, And those are the majority of the cases, but there are cases the majority of the but there are cases the majority of the but there are cases the majority of the extreme cases anyway, but you do find extreme cases anyway, but you do find extreme cases anyway, but you do find the reverse. And the reverse is a the reverse. And the reverse is a the reverse. And the reverse is a problem as well, and it's problem that problem as well, and it's problem that problem as well, and it's problem that that we overlook if we exaggerate those that we overlook if we exaggerate those that we overlook if we exaggerate those sex differences. There's an irony there sex differences. There's an irony there sex differences. There's an irony there though, um though, um though, um how which is that uh how which is that uh how which is that uh the sex difference in sexual harassment, the sex difference in sexual harassment, the sex difference in sexual harassment, sex difference in interpersonal sex difference in interpersonal sex difference in interpersonal uh uh uh intimate partner abuse, intimate partner abuse, intimate partner abuse, the people who are most likely to the people who are most likely to the people who are most likely to exaggerate that and say it's all men exaggerate that and say it's all men exaggerate that and say it's all men tend to be gender role progressives, so tend to be gender role progressives, so tend to be gender role progressives, so people who generally trying to minimize people who generally trying to minimize people who generally trying to minimize and deny sex differences. In those and deny sex differences. In those and deny sex differences. In those cases, they actually, funnily enough, cases, they actually, funnily enough, cases, they actually, funnily enough, flip to the reverse and and flip to the reverse and and flip to the reverse and and adhere to them in fact just reverse it adhere to them in fact just reverse it adhere to them in fact just reverse it and and and and and and uh massively exaggerate those uh massively exaggerate those uh massively exaggerate those differences. differences. differences. >> Fascinating. Steve, you're the best. I >> Fascinating. Steve, you're the best. I >> Fascinating. Steve, you're the best. I appreciate you, man. You've done a appreciate you, man. You've done a appreciate you, man. You've done a wonderful job with this book. Everyone wonderful job with this book. Everyone wonderful job with this book. Everyone should go and buy it, Billion Years of should go and buy it, Billion Years of should go and buy it, Billion Years of Sex Differences. What else what else do Sex Differences. What else what else do Sex Differences. What else what else do you want to plug? you want to plug? you want to plug? >> Could I plug uh my Substack? So, that's >> Could I plug uh my Substack? So, that's >> Could I plug uh my Substack? So, that's the the thing I'm most excited about. the the thing I'm most excited about. the the thing I'm most excited about. >> nurture newsletter. Dude, I am a I am a >> nurture newsletter. Dude, I am a I am a >> nurture newsletter. Dude, I am a I am a Steve Stewart-Williams stan, bro. I Steve Stewart-Williams stan, bro. I Steve Stewart-Williams stan, bro. I mean, you're the AP wonders that the mean, you're the AP wonders that the mean, you're the AP wonders that the universe is in the five books that universe is in the five books that universe is in the five books that everybody needs to read for my first everybody needs to read for my first everybody needs to read for my first reading list. reading list. reading list. Had this one have been out, it would Had this one have been out, it would Had this one have been out, it would have been in the second one. have been in the second one. have been in the second one. Yeah, your your Substack rules, and Yeah, your your Substack rules, and Yeah, your your Substack rules, and everyone should go and check it out. I everyone should go and check it out. I everyone should go and check it out. I love it. The my favorite thing that you love it. The my favorite thing that you love it. The my favorite thing that you do is the link fest yeah yeah yeah do is the link fest yeah yeah yeah do is the link fest yeah yeah yeah breakdowns. Once a month, you just send breakdowns. Once a month, you just send breakdowns. Once a month, you just send like like like 40 or 50 different studies or insights 40 or 50 different studies or insights 40 or 50 different studies or insights that you find. You're the best, man. I I that you find. You're the best, man. I I that you find. You're the best, man. I I really appreciate you. Thank you so much really appreciate you. Thank you so much really appreciate you. Thank you so much for coming to see me. for coming to see me. for coming to see me. >> Thanks very much for for making this >> Thanks very much for for making this >> Thanks very much for for making this happen. This is great. happen. This is great. happen. This is great. >> I got you. All right, goodbye, everyone. >> I got you. All right, goodbye, everyone. >> I got you. All right, goodbye, everyone. >> Okay, later, folks. >> Okay, later, folks. >> Okay, later, folks. >> Deuces. >> Deuces. >> Deuces. Yes. Yes. Yes. >> All right. >> All right. >> All right. >> Nailed it. Nailed it. Nailed it. [ __ ] >> Nailed it. Nailed it. Nailed it. [ __ ] >> Nailed it. Nailed it. Nailed it. [ __ ] hell. it. hell. it. hell. it. >> Congratulations, you made it to the end >> Congratulations, you made it to the end >> Congratulations, you made it to the end of a full podcast episode. You are not of a full podcast episode. You are not of a full podcast episode. You are not so TikTok brained that you've completely so TikTok brained that you've completely so TikTok brained that you've completely dissolved into nothingness. dissolved into nothingness. dissolved into nothingness. >> [music] >> [music] >> [music] >> Why not watch another one? >> Why not watch another one? >> Why not watch another one? Right here. Right here. Right here. Go on. Go on. Go on. Press it.