The Tiny Daily Habit That Rewires Your Brain for Better Relationships | Amir Levine

Key Takeaway

Your brain registers social exclusion the same way it processes physical pain. When someone doesn't return your text or ignores you, areas of painful distress light up in brain scans. The solution: be CARP (Consistent, Available, Responsive, Reliable, Predictable) in your daily interactions. Respond to messages promptly, show up when you say you will, and create reliable patterns. This isn't about grand gestures—it's about the small, everyday moments that signal to others (and yourself) that connection matters.

Episode Overview

Dr. Amir Levine, author of 'Attached' and 'Secure,' discusses attachment theory and introduces 'secure priming therapy'—a framework for improving relationships through understanding attachment styles. He explains how our brains are wired for connection, why exclusion triggers pain responses, and provides practical tools like CARP and 'wall tennis with love' to build more secure relationships.

Full Transcript

Transcript of The Tiny Daily Habit That Rewires Your Brain for Better Relationships | Amir Levine from 10% Happier. Auto-generated from episode audio; may contain minor errors.

Hey, welcome to the 10% Happier podcast. I'm Dan Harris. I think about this all the time. We live in a world where we're told that the route to happiness is through the accumulation of money and likes on Instagram, i.e. individual achievement. But in fact, we know from the science and and just through the basics of evolution that we are wired to derive our happiness through the quality of our relationships. But nobody's selling us that on on Instagram. Today though, we've got a fascinating conversation that is going to provoke you to think about what is your attachment style?

Like how do you relate to other people? And how can you tweak that so that your relationships are better, which will improve your health, both your mental and physical health. My guest is the great Dr. Amir Levine. He wrote a huge bestseller called Attached and he's now followed up with a book called Secure, the revolutionary guide to creating a secure life. We will be right back with Dr. Amir Levine right after this quick break. A few things before we hear from our sponsors, we've got this awesome new series launching soon on my newish meditation app, 10% with Dan Harris.

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betterhelp.com/happier. betterhelp.com/happier. That's betterhelp.com/happier. That's betterhelp.com/happier. That's betterhelp.com/happier. happier. Amir Levine, welcome to the show. I'm glad to be here. Can we just start with some basics on attachment theory? I It's crazy to me that that that I've hosted this show for over a decade and we really have not done much on attachment theory. So, can you just hold my hand a little bit and and walk me through the basics? Oh, yeah. Yeah, I'm very glad that you ask. I mean, obviously, it's been my bread and butter.

I think the way that I like to think about attachment is that it's almost like a safety radar. It's how we feel safe in the world. As a social species, we feel safe through other people. The father of adult attachment is John Bowlby and he actually came to the conclusion that attachment, that our need to be connected to others, is a basic need. Just like food and water. And at the time, it was a strange notion because people thought that babies attach because the mother feeds them and the mother gives them sustenance.

And it's a byproduct. But, John Bowlby actually came around and said, "No, it's actually a basic need." And he came up with that because he, during World War II, he worked in in England during the Blitz and he saw all these displaced kids. And that even though they were given everything they needed in terms of food and sustenance, and they were well taken care of, they failed to thrive because they didn't have that connection, which is really essential for all of us. We need to establish a connection to caregivers early on and if we don't, we wither.

Exactly. But, Exactly. But, Exactly. But, Bowlby also said that attachment, our attachment needs, like, stay with us throughout our our whole lifetime, from birth through the grave, basically. That's what he said. And so, we still have the same attachment circuitry and we still need to maintain that connection, connection, connection, even into adulthood. It's just like the attachment behaviors are much easier to see when we're children, but they still exist as adults. And so and then came along Mary Ainsworth and she found that we actually have like initially she discovered these three attachment styles and then the fourth attachment style was discovered.

So she added on to that knowledge that we don't all behave in the same way when we are attached to other people. other people. other people. I want to talk about our attachment styles in a second, but I I think what you were pointing to there, at least one thing you were pointing to in your last answer was that our attachment style is fluid, that we obviously our first attachments are to our parents or early caregivers, but we're obviously changing obviously changing obviously changing systems as as human animals throughout our lives and so our attachment styles can change can change can change as we grow older and as we move from context to context.

I'm so glad you said that because you just took the words right out of my mouth. This is what you just said is one of the most important things that people should know about our attachment styles and it's not a given at all because if you'll go on social media and you'll go online, people have this idea that the attachment style that you have as a child is the attachment style that you have as an adult and it's all fixed at the age of two or the age of three, but that is completely false and that's not what the science finds at all.

And the fact of the matter is is that we can change our attachment style. It's not like in one specific category. We can have slightly different attachment style with different people, although we do have a general one that sort of that rules. We're primarily social species, so we're very malleable and very very able to reshape and remold our attachment style. And I find it very promising and that's why even like in this new book I really invented a new therapy that's called secure priming therapy to help people understand attachment logic and really um help them move towards greater secure attachment cuz that really helps in relationships.

I will have said some of this in the introduction but I'll I'll say it again now. So you wrote this huge bestseller Attached um and now you have a new book called Secure. Um and so I want we're going to spend a lot of time on the new book but I just want to dwell in the land of the first book for a moment because it is it is the foundation. So having said all that can you walk us through the attachment styles? Um yeah what are they?

Yeah so there's uh anxious avoidant secure and fearful avoidant. And the first three ones are the major ones and fearful avoidant is much more rare. And it it's really like a script that we have in our in our head or the way that we we experience the relational world around us. And so if we have an anxious attachment style we love closeness but we also are very sensitive to potential threat to the relationship. So if we don't get a text back very quickly or if there's we feel that there's a disruption in the connection we really are afraid that the relationship may not last.

We worry a lot about the the impactfulness of the relationship. Um it's just like we don't feel that it's very stable and we feel that it's very fragile. So that's the anxious attachment style. attachment style. attachment style. And people who are secure love closeness and intimacy but they don't have that sensitive radar for potential danger. So a lot of stuff go over their head and they're just really warm and loving and easy to get along with. And then on the other side you have the the avoidants and when you're avoidant you also want to be in a relationship and you want the connection but something funny happens when you get close to someone you start to feel uncomfortable with too too closeness and you use what we call in attachment lingo deactivating strategies, little ways to some distance between you and the other person.

And the script that goes on in your head is that you have to be self-sufficient, self-reliant, and really like you think about your independence is the most important thing, more so than the connection itself. itself. itself. It's anxious, secure, avoidant. And then there's a fearful avoidant. It's the combination of the two, anxious and avoidant. So, really on the one hand you really want closeness and you crave closeness, but also when people get too close, you start to sort of like no, no, no, like stay away.

So, it's like with one hand you're emotioning come closer and with the other hand you say you're emotioning stay away, stay away. So, it creates a lot of instability in the relationship. relationship. relationship. How do we know which style we are? So, it's uh you take a quiz and then you find out. And the truth is, well, like in attach we really had like one quiz and it was really about mostly romantic relationships, but now like with the new research we know that we can have attachment styles uh with various peoples in our lives.

On my website, there's a whole drop-down menu where you can take you can check your attachment style. You can check your general attachment style, but also you can do it with your siblings, with your children, uh with a co-worker, also with a pet. We have attachment styles with our pets. I have a specific attachment style with my dog, who's sleeping right over there. So, you can really check and you can actually get what I've called your attachment topography. You see how different people bring out different things in you.

And some people bring out more of a secure side, and other people will bring out other sides. And this is actually really interesting and we I use that in secure priming therapy as the beginning as a baseline of this is what we have in the beginning, and now what we're going to be working towards. And yeah, so that's it's very, very helpful. So just just so people have it, what is your website if they want to go take those tests? those tests? those tests? Oh, it's Amir Levine MD.com and then the like you just take the quiz on there and you really get the whole topography of all of your different relationships.

As stated, you wrote this book Attached, it got super successful and a lot of people come started coming up to you and saying, "I want to be secure." And that really was the germ for your new book Secure. And you've referenced secure priming therapy. I think I'm getting that term right. Yes, yes. Yes, yes. Yes, yes. What is that and how do we do it? So initially I didn't really have an answer to people how do you become more secure because all these attachment styles before I wrote Attached were just like these academic concepts buried in in just like academic journals.

I came across them by chance and then I was going through a breakup at the time myself and I was having such a hard time understanding what's going on in your relationship because I knew that we both loved each other and we didn't like but it still didn't work out and I couldn't really figure out why. And then when I came across this concept it's like a light bulb a relationship light bulb went up like went on in my head and I all of a sudden understood what was going on in the different dynamics.

For example, when I get close to someone I feel like, "Oh, I I really like this person. I'm I start thinking about building a future together." But the other person I was with at the time like he told me, "Oh, when I get close to someone I want to move to San Francisco." I was living in New York and it was like, "No, but that doesn't make any sense to me." And so at the time all I had to go by was knowledge sort of pre-attachment knowledge that this idea that love conquers all.

Like what it meant for me is like like if he says that that means that he just doesn't love me enough because if you love someone more he would want to be with them. But then when you understand attachment logic you know that that's actually not true. That people can love you, but still like get scared from the closeness and feel uncomfortable and want to create more distance. And if you understand that logic, you can work with it better. So, the whole idea behind secure priming therapy is to understand that there's an attachment logic that runs through all of our relationships.

Uh and if you learn that logic and if you can use it in our lives, and there's specific tools that I I really am looking forward to talking about with you, then we can really find a better path to make relationships work better for us and really it become more secure. I I want to just say that say that back to you just so I I I get it and so by extension the audience gets it. A secure priming therapy is a set of tools that we will discuss that help you move towards secure in all of your relationships.

relationships. relationships. Exactly. Yes, it sort of really harnesses this idea about what our social brain needs and how to really give our social brain what it needs to feel that level of connectedness that make us secure. Okay. So, Okay. So, Okay. So, let's talk about the tools. There's one thing we need to understand before we even jump into the tools and that's something that I call the cyberball effect, which is like the first chapter of the book and it really describes this very basic experiment, the cyberball experiment.

And in it, you play a little simple video game in which you play a game of catch with two other characters and then all of a sudden they stop throwing the ball in your direction. And what we see like in fMRI studies, we see areas of painful distress and self-scrutiny that come online. And the brain really hates exclusion. It really I can't even like it's like it's such a strong reaction that we get when we get excluded like that that that or ignored, by the way.

And we also when they check psychologically, they see that people feel that their life is less meaningful, that they're less in control over their life, and they're less self-esteem. So, when I came across all of these findings, I was actually really surprised because I never thought that my self-esteem or how much I feel that I'm in control over my life or how much I assign meaning to my life is related to how connected I am to other people. But to our our social brain, uh it's really really matters and sort of maintaining that level of connectedness is really important for us.

us. us. The Cyberball effect is an online test that points to something that's true for all of us, which is uh we are wired by evolution to react and and we show shows up in the in brain scans, too, to react with the same part of the brain that we react to with physical pain when we are excluded or ignored. ignored. ignored. Yes, and the effect is so strong that even they tried to reverse the like they tried they they told you you know, they said, "Dan, I'm going to give you some money." And whenever their ball is not thrown in your direction, I'm going to give you a like a whole bunch of money.

And they saw that that didn't matter at all. Still the same areas of the brain lit up in like just as powerfully. And they took it even a step further, which I don't really understand how the ethics committee allowed that, but they said to minority students, minority students, minority students, uh these two other people that you're playing with, they're members of the KKK. So, you think, "Why would I care if these people are people are not throwing the ball in my direction? Like, why would it matter to me?" It doesn't matter.

The brain still lights up. It's almost like a reflex reaction by the brain because that area of the brain and the way that our social brain works, it really not meant to the way that we're living today. It was meant to the lives that we had when we were in the middle of the food chain. And to be ignored by someone meant real threat. And it's rather that I be noticed by despicable people or be like in like in contact with despicable people than being alone.

Cuz being alone is the biggest threat that could be in terms of for an animal in the middle of the food chain. So, I think that's why their brain really loads exclusion and and being ignored. And when you say, you know, it's very nice scientific word when it says self-scrutiny, but I mean like I think the way it translates to people's lives and when people someone doesn't return your call or you would you don't get an email back. Be it work, be it with from your partner.

You can say, "What's happening? How come they're not calling? Have I done anything? Did I say something wrong?" So, that's kind of like the self-scrutiny. It sounds like a big scientific word, but it really translates to becoming preoccupied with what's going on? What's going on? It's very important that people know that. It's just something that happens almost like a reflex. Our culture is not built around this wisdom, and yet it is deeply true. If you deny somebody social contact and by the way, we do this in prisons all the time and it's I think it could be fairly described as a form of torture.

I actually actually actually as a brief digression, I did a a story back when I was a television journalist where I lived for 48 hours in solitary confinement in the Denver County Jail. And it sucked. It really sucked. And it wasn't like there were other people in the jail I was dying to hang out with, but I would have taken it over just being stuck in a room by myself. And yeah, and yet our society is built around ideas like individualism and and I think this mismatch and I think this mismatch between how we evolved and the culture and society we've created is a big reason why we have unprecedented levels of anxiety, depression, suicide, addiction, and loneliness.

And yeah, so I'll stop talking and see what you have to say about that. I know, I love that you said that because the the whole book is basically the whole this whole book secure is basically about like coming to people and say, "Wake up. Look at your brain. Look at your social brain and look at what it needs in order to thrive and we're not doing it and even sometimes it starts you know when even when we have kids and let's say you have a like I'm also a child psychiatrist and you have like a 3-year-old she came to like to her mother and say, "Oh Mommy, Mommy Sophie didn't want to play with me today." And usually the usual reaction would be, "Oh, I mean it's okay.

She'll play with you tomorrow." Thinking, you know, that's the world. The world is a tough place and you have to sort of learn to live with the punches. But actually there's an opportunity here and actually that's what I also do in secure to grown-ups is to teach people, "No, you know something? Maybe Sophie isn't a reliable friend. And what about Hannah? Hannah always wants to play with you and isn't that so much better when you have a friend who always wants to play with you?" It's really an opportunity to teach a lesson about the reliable friend versus the versus the versus the uh uh uh unreliable friend.

unreliable friend. unreliable friend. Are there people who just don't give a like uh I'll play the cyberball game and I don't care. Just don't never throw the ball at me. Just keep giving me money. That's all I care about. No, so that's what they found. That's what I think is so profound is that our brain doesn't care. Like our brains always respond. Maybe then we can override that response but everyone will respond. respond. respond. It's universal. But the other thing that they find is that uh is something what I love about this is that they did the other the opposite experiment which is the reverse cyberball.

So in the reverse cyberball imagine that that you're sitting in the you're standing in the middle and then two people on each side of you and you'd have the ball and you turn to the right do you throw it to this person next to you? They throw it back at you. And then you turn to the left you throw it to them and then they throw it at back at you. So now you're hyper included and the brain loves that cuz the brain feels you have you feel that life is more meaningful.

You feel that you're more in control of your life. You have greater self-esteem. So the brain really loves uh hyper being hyper included. So then I thought, how would you create that scenario in your everyday life? How do we become hyper-included because it has such a like an amazing effect, also affects longevity and other really and we can talk about also the other effects of becoming more secure. But, so I I like I gave it a lot of thought and I came up with this particular tool, which is an acronym that I called CARP, which stands for consistent, available, responsive, reliable, and predictable.

So, if we and you have to understand the attachment logic, it's about the small interactions. Uh so, if we learn to be consistent, available, and responsive, and others experience us as reliable and predictable, in other words, we're CARP, they I call these the five pillars of a secure life. It's in the small everyday interactions and I'm sure you've experienced that before when you send an email to someone and they respond right back or even in the text and there's that back and forth that seems very seamless.

It brings joy to our brain, basically. I can't really think of it any other way of saying it. And this is something I've thought about for a long time, all the way back to junior high, where there would be friends who we would say, "Yeah, we're going to get together." going to we're going to get together." And they some some 50% of the time they would flake and I would know that that they were that type of person and I in some part of my brain would put them in a different box, like they're not fully safe.

Even if they're not malicious, I can't really rely on them and and a friend of mine was saying something to this effect recently. We were talking about a third friend and he said, "Yeah, that that that this other guy is like sometimes he'll show up when he says he's going to show up, but often he doesn't." And I, this is now my second friend talking, I know my nervous system well enough to know that like I can't handle that. So, I have to like I there's only so much closeness that is on offer for me with this other person.

Right, exactly. So, you really captured it so well. And that awareness is actually something that I try to teach people in the book. I have a specific tool that's called wall tennis with love because unfortunately a lot of people don't really do what your other friend does. Or maybe what you were able to have that realization in high school. And especially I think people who have a anxious attachment more tend to No, I got to fix this. Let me try to fix this. Text them, talk to them.

How are you like like send another question mark. You there? All these different things sort of trying to get the response. And part of secure priming therapy is teaching people No, this is actually not good for your social brain. And so, the first thing that you do is you do like a car intervention. So, you tell this third friend and say, "You know, being consistent, available, and responsive is really important for me. And it's also important for my social brain." And we didn't even get into that, but it helps reduce mortality.

It increased it decreases biological age. Feeling connected has these huge benefits for even physical health. I'm not just talking about the psychological health. So, you say you can really do this car intervention and you tell this person, "So, like it's really important for me. I hope that you can maybe rise to the challenge." Many people can actually. But then if they don't, then I would do what your friend actually described. Kind of like lower the volume on that relationship. And the tool that is for that is called wall tennis with love.

Wall tennis with love. What What is that actually What does that actually mean? So, what it means is I don't know if you've ever played tennis against the wall. wall. wall. Yes. Yes. Yes. So, when you play tennis against the wall, the wall like whatever you hit the wall the wall the wall will respond with about similar velocity, similar direction, and the the idea is what Wall Tennis with Love is that if you know that this person is not carp, that they're not reliable, and you know that it affects your brain like in like not not in a good way, then it's it's really a way to keep So, what you're doing, you're the wall.

Whenever they're throwing something in your direction, you respond back with love, but you don't initiate too much. You don't really you don't take actions that can actually lead to that um to that exclusion or to that being ignored. And for example, I have a friend that I have a Wall Tennis with Love sort of thing going on with. And so, I would text it as like I wouldn't text him cuz that's I'm being the wall. He would text me, and he would say, "Hi." And I would text right back.

I'm the wall. Hi. A week would go by. And then a week later, I get it another hi. Then I say, "Hi." right back. Then 2 days go by. Then all of a sudden, he will call me. I answer the phone if I can, obviously. If not, I call right back cuz it's with love. You want to uh keep the back and forth. You don't want to them to feel excluded. You're not trying to get to them or get at them. So, he calls me, and we talk, and everything's really nice.

It helped our relationship because we've been friends for 20 years, and there were times where it was not an easy relationship. Like I think for about a year and a half, we didn't speak to each other. And now it really find the right balance where if I if I have a problem or if I have an issue that I want to talk to, I'm not going to go to him because in the past I did, and it didn't it wasn't good. He either was very like quiet on the phone, or he not hung up very quickly, and it made me very upset.

So, I have my other my secure village, my carp people that I go to. go to. go to. Um Um Um and with him I do the Wall Tennis with Love, and it actually preserved the relationship. relationship. relationship. So interesting. Let me ask you a technical question about texting and emailing back promptly. I do that most of the time. Uh sometimes my team members have to remind me that I've failed to respond to a slack. I think Eleanor, who's producing this episode, had to do that with me today.

Um but generally speaking, I try to be quite prompt. I have heard some people, including Adam Grant, who who I have a lot of affection and respect for, argue that, especially in a business context, given how overloaded and overwhelmed we are all are, you shouldn't feel too much responsibility to answer every email right away. And you also shouldn't apologize, uh as I often do, with sorry for the delayed response. So, I have sympathy for both sides of these arguments. I'm going to be interested to hear where you come down.

come down. come down. I'm really glad that you said that. And also, I think it's important that we all In a minute, we should Just remind me cuz it's important to talk about people with ADHD with ADHD with ADHD uh and being carp. But I have to say, first of all, your response is the secure response because you really convey that you have this commitment to this back and forth between people. But it's not it's not it's not that his response is wrong. It's just like it's whatever we bring to the table and and and the the truth be told, like we're very savvy social species.

And we learn There's something that I call in in the book this attachment homeostasis. We learn to identify what the attachment homeostasis is. And so, I will learn that Adam Grant takes him several days to answer his emails. He doesn't always answer the emails or he doesn't always text back. I'm not going to expect that at all. Uh but I will learn that you are like a like a pretty like you answer very quickly, and I will learn to expect that. My brain will my social brain will learn to expect that.

So, I think you see, both are right. And you you know that there's that expectation, and you live up to it. And he creates a different baseline and he lives up to it, too. So, it's okay. And the same thing with people with ADHD, they often times forget and they often time often time often time like don't respond, they get overwhelmed. But I think a lot of my patients who have ADHD, they've learned to say, "You know what? I may really forget or I may not be able to always respond and it actually overwhelms me.

But don't be afraid if I didn't respond enough, just send me like several reminders. I actually like that. It helps organize me." So, you can still be carp and not always respond right away. You just have to create to create a certain framework that people will learn what to expect. It's more about setting a the certain expectation and creating a certain baseline. But then once you created that baseline, you have to stick to it. to it. to it. Just in defense of Adam Grant, two things.

One, he does, in my experience, reply with extraordinary speed. And two, I may even I may not even be articulating his POV on this correctly. So, Adam, on the off chance that you're listening, I apologize if I did you dirty there. dirty there. dirty there. My team and I've been working on a new website recently. Websites are so important still important still important still if you're a small business. It's like your digital storefront and it's got to be dialed in. And that brings me to one of our valued sponsors for today's episode.

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Again, that's DAN to 64,000. d a n to 64,000. Message and data rates may apply. See terms for details. Let's just go back to CARP for a second. Can you just go through the acronym again? again? again? I'm glad that you're asking about that because because because there's there's a nuance there. So, the idea is that I have to learn to be consistent, available, and responsive. Cuz that really maintains that back and forth. Not in that that I think, "Oh, I'm so great. I'm consistent, available, and responsive to this person." I then have to It's like a two-factor authentication.

I have to reach out to you and say and make sure that you actually experience me as reliable and predictable. So, because it's it's attachment. It's It's a dyadic process. So, that's why it's consistent, available, responsive, and then the other part of it is reliable and predictable. And we If we can do that, then I think it's really our brain just It's really what it's the social brain. It's really creating that hyperincluded that in that reverse dyadic ball. You're creating this scenario for the brain when it feels hyperincluded.

I just want to make sure I really understand this. understand this. understand this. There are two levels to the acronym. Again, the acronym is C A R R P. One wants to You want to make sure that in your relationships you are consistent, available, and responsive. And you want to make sure you're checking with the other person that they are experiencing you as reliable and predictable. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So, this is a personal practice. We have agency. We can be this in We can be CARP in the world, and there is a high likelihood that we will get back what we're putting out there.

As Paul McCartney said on the I believe the last song the Beatles ever recorded, the love we take is equal to the love we make. But, I also just want to say the other part of CARP is not just a personal practice, it's what you are looking for in the world. Like, you want to make sure you are surrounding yourself by Karp. Karp. Karp. Exactly. No, that's exactly it. I'm You described it really well. Yeah, I mean, it's it's not enough. Like, you really want to create uh a secure environment for yourself.

And so, it's not enough that you yourself are Karp. You also want to make sure that your environment is Karp. And so, you want to reach out to other people. And I mean, if you did that attachment topography initially, and you see who are the people in your life that are secure, they're most likely very uh like Karp. Cuz that goes along together with being like uh securely attached. Secure people are like naturally very Karp. They just do it automatically. So, you'll see you'll get your attachment topography, and you'll see who are these people that are Karp in your life, and who are those like it's like four quadrants.

So, I'm like really thinking about it topographically. Who are those who actually are further out there? Uh and those people are usually less Karp. And what I invite people to do is to part of secure panic therapy is to really recure your social environment or um like remold your social environment in the direction of uh creating more secure environment. I call it the Karp intervention, and I've mentioned it before. You really You can come to people, and you can say, "Hey, you know, um um um I've emailed you, and you have like I've I call you, and you don't respond for 2 weeks, and like it really bothers me.

For me, I try to be consistent available and responsive, but I also want other people in my life to be the same. And you can even blame it on your brain. Blame it on your social brain. You don't have to say, "Oh, I was abandoned as a child, or as a child I wasn't really treated well." Because we saw that those attachment styles are not necessarily related to how like you you treated in childhood. You can actually morph them in the here and now. So, you say, "In the here and now, my social brain really doesn't like like those [clears throat] disruptions.

So, that's what I'm trying to do for myself." Is it harder for some people to be carp though if they did have a tough childhood, childhood, childhood, um you know, and and are naturally of avoidant or fearful or both? Insecure, I really try to go into a lot of really explain some of the origins of attachment styles and a lot of it we don't know, but there's been really fascinating research about about about uh what it means to have these different attachment styles. attachment styles. attachment styles.

And I think the way that I see it in insecure is that there are advantages to having these different attachment styles and I think the best experiment that captures that is like when they got a group of people into a room and they had a little bit of smoke come out of one of the computers and it was the people with the anxious attachment style that identified the smoke uh the earliest and alerted everybody else. But it was those with the avoidant attachment styles were first out the door.

And so, for me, I can tell you if there was a little bit of smoke, I would probably notice it, but I was like I would turn to the people next to me, "Should we go? Should we leave? What do you think? we leave? What do you think? Is it okay? Should we stay? What should we do?" But if you're avoidant, like you don't really ask anyone. You operate on like you really are self-sufficient. You just like, "I'm out of here. You guys can do whatever you want." And other people follow.

So, you can see the advantage of having the anxious, which is the canary in the coal mine, that can identify things in the environment that other people can't, but also having the avoidant attachment or mindset that you're a free thinker and you're like, "I don't care what you all are doing. I'm out of here." And then other people follow. So there are advantages of having different attachment styles and I think it's very important to emphasize that. It's not just like always only a deficit. I think that's it's much more nuanced than that.

Is that your way of saying we can all be curve no matter what our background is? I think so. There's a certain logic to attachment and we can learn how to to really maintain that connection. But sometimes we have to be more creative about it. One of the examples that I give in the book is about this mother of college kids who when their her kids went to college, she when she called them, they're like like we don't have time for you. They're very dismissive on the phone and it hurt.

The way that she found a work around is that she got connected with them on their exercise apps. So now they all see each other what they're doing and so they thumb up. Like if she see that they're walking, they reach 10,000 steps, she gives them a thumbs up. They give her a thumbs up. And also she started a Snapchat also around their family dogs. They're sending like cute little pictures of the family dog and so they interact through there. So she found a way to maintain that back and forth and she also she knows like around what time they call her when they're driving or something.

So she makes it a point to be available. But so she really found a way to maintain that connection. And again, our brain really loves the connection and that's brings us to the other acronym in the book. There's only two acronyms. I promise. It's the how important are those what I've come to call the seemingly insignificant minor interactions in everyday life or I call it like seemees because often time when people come to therapy, they think like I need to talk about difficult things that happened to me, childhood in order to change or like about really big events that happened in my life.

And that's not I'm I'm that's not true. not true. not true. but people hardly ever think about the seemingly insignificant minor interactions of everyday life as a vehicle for change and of how the brain really changes. But from as a molecular neuroscientist who does epigenetic work on the brain, I know that those small interactions, each and every interaction like that is a potential vehicle for change of really showing the brain something new or teaching it something new. new. new. Many of us think that in order to be happy, happy, happy, we need big things to happen.

Fall in love, get a promotion, make a big sale. But your argument is that these seemingly, what's the seemy? Seemingly seemingly insignificant minor interactions. interactions. interactions. So your argument is that these seemingly insignificant minor interactions or seemies are actually like a constant daily source of joy and it's kind of like we're leaving money on the table by not paying attention to them. So each seemy is an opportunity to show the brain something different and an opportunity to create a connection. Um so for example, when I used to go on Ubers, I used to be like, don't talk to me.

I'm trying to look really interested in my phone. And ever since I've done the research on this book and I wrote this book and I understood how much that hyper inclusive and being connected to others is important, I important, I important, I I actually find it as an opportunity to connect and I talk to drivers. I welcome people talking to me about the weather in the elevator. I I nod and say hello to people. Like even those people at the gym that are like always talk and I used to sort of circle around or try to avoid, I talk to them now and it made a huge difference in my life.

I've made a similar change in recent years. years. years. So I'm on your side with this, but let me just throw you a skeptical question because I think some people are worried, especially like type A high achievers are worried that if they're stopping and chatting all the time, they're never getting anything done. I actually would argue that it's the opposite because I think if anything, there's all these research about the benefits of being more securely attached. I was astounded when I found out all this information because you know, we go we take all these supplements and cold plunges and peptides and we do all these things to for longevity, but being connected is one of the biggest longevity hacks that we have.

And it decreases mortality by 50%. 50%. 50%. But it also increases cognition and it actually also increases brain volume. So, if you're really working worrying about being able to be on top of your game, it's the opposite. You want to like connect more. You want to create that feeling of connectedness and then you feel more in control of your life. You remember that that life is more meaningful and like the the increases self-esteem. I really was my own self-experiment because I wasn't like that at all and I have to say that even at the gym now, that one person who talks to everyone that I used to like really try to stay like I talk to him now and it's suddenly about 10 minutes talking to him about talking to him about different things, but I do feel there's a sense of community now for me there at the gym that I never had before.

And I know now I can feel the value of it like I really like in my in my body like somatically. somatically. somatically. Yeah, I really plus one on all of that and I say this as somebody as and I've made this joke many times before, but my factory settings are firmly at frosty New Englander and getting over that has has really helped me. Just a a little quick you were just listing all the the the benefits that show up in the research for people who have what you call secure magic, who have you know, who are have secure attachments and positive relationships in their lives.

I I made a note that I believe one of the other benefits of generally having secure relationships in your life, uh is that you can better handle social media. media. media. I'm glad that you bring that up. That's what I found so surprising and why like in this book there's been so much more research since Attached about how secure how it's much it goes much further than our romantic relationships or even just our relationships with others and how it affects how we behave in the world.

So, one of the things that they found is that it actually helps like with shopping. Like you people who are secure are less susceptible to consumerism. The logos and such that doesn't really affect them as much. Another thing that they found is that if you're like uh searching for a job, you're doing it much more securely. Like you're not you're less uh bogged down by it and it doesn't affect your self-esteem as much. In terms of like healthcare, they found there's one study where they looked at fibromyalgia.

Like people who have fibromyalgia and they found that people who have secure or more secure have better relationships with their healthcare provider but also report less symptoms and less pain and really manage their illness much better. And finally, the what you're asking about I just couldn't help but really bring up all the other highlights. Um is like that people are also able to handle social media much better. They don't really it doesn't affect them that they they get like 100 likes or like you know, how many people viewed my thing or they didn't view my thing.

It's just like whatever. like whatever. like whatever. I just want to in the name of being um reliable and predictable, I do want to check. Did I give you enough of an opportunity to talk about ADHD? I think I alluded to it but I think it's important to say that it's harder for people with ADHD to be carp. And so, because sometimes they forget certain things. You can still be carp even if you have attention deficit disorder and you can say, "Hey, you know, I I have I I have attention problems.

But if you see that I'm not responding, just hit me up more and I'll respond eventually and it actually helps me. And whenever I think people really welcome that, people with ADHD is a little bit the ability to be proactive and say something and then giving people the authority or the permission to um try to get a response from them more if they need it. So, that's like a secure way of dealing with that. with that. with that. What is the appendix rule? It's a tool that's specific for people with uh anxious attachment because those carbs seem easy.

These are tools that you'll use very differently if you have an avoidant attachment style or you have an anxious attachment style because it's uh it's a different script that you have to attend to. So, people with an anxious attachment style have a very sticky attachment and unlike the way that you said it that you even knew like in uh in junior high, you know this friend, they don't show up for me as much and so um I'm going to stick with my other more secure friends.

Like people with anxious attachment are not very good at it and so they keep going back to I don't know, the for lack of better word, to the scene of the crime and trying to make like the relationship work even though it's not working. And so, part of secure primary therapy is to tell them the appendix rule is means like telling them "You are really harming your brain by going back to these insecure relationships and trying to make them work and you're ignoring and usually that's the case on the topography, you're ignoring all these secure people in your life that can give you so much by trying to fix something that you've tried with carb intervention and it's not working and it's not fixable.

For your own health, let go of those relationships relationships relationships in order to be able to foster a more secure brain and get into that secure mode." mode." mode." So, the appendix rule basically says, "You have to let go of those relationships uh and you can't hold on to them because it's harmful for your brain. brain. brain. This brings up a lot because I had a conversation here on the show not long ago with Esther Perel, who I'm sure you know, the legendary couples therapist and author.

author. author. And she made an argument that really landed with me because I've I've cut people out of my life, not many, but a few. We were like really bad relationships. Esther was arguing that sometimes when you cut somebody out of your life, they start to occupy even more space in your brain. 100% but remember, I don't actually I if anything I say that to do the opposite to use Walt Tennis with love in order to right-size the relationship. So I see. I see. I see.

It's 100% like cutting someone out of your life, like what happens from an attachment perspective is that you get an attachment backlash. And then you start really missing them. It's very painful. They totally take center stage. You actually you achieve the opposite of what you wanted. In order to really right-size the relationship, that's why the Walt Tennis with love is so important for people with anxious attachment because they don't like fool your brain. The relationship is still there and it's manageable and you can tune you you're continuing the the back and forth.

and forth. and forth. But secretly But secretly But secretly you've shifted your priorities and now you're really giving a lot more time and a lot more effort into those secure relationships. So you haven't left them. You haven't cut anyone out. You just really reshuffle your priorities. priorities. priorities. Got it. It's about It's about like a volume knob. That That makes a ton of sense. sense. sense. It actually makes a lot of sense if you think about it. Like with my friend, when I would used to go to him with all some issues and some problem like like if something happened and I needed advice, and for whatever reason he wasn't able to get it to me.

And then what usually what happens in attachment perspective, it's important to understand how powerful secure bonds are because because because um I'm I'm sure you also have that in your head. Like if something bad happens to you, I'm sure there's this you know exactly who's person number one that you'll go to, who person number two or number three. And then, if we're securely attached to those people, sometimes all it takes is a hug or a sing as like a word or sentence to make us feel better.

It's such a powerful thing cuz we're social species. There's no Klonopin or Xanax that even comes close to the powerful effect of a secure bond. But the opposite is also true. Like insecure attachments can be one of the most powerful instigators of uh of emotional turmoil. And so, I always say that attachment really is at the basis of both suffering and healing from suffering. suffering. suffering. There was a therapist on the show a while ago who said something that's been knocking around in my head, which is that um that um that um wounding happens in relation- ships.

Healing also happens in relationships. And And And uh so, choose wisely. Exactly. But also, if you understand the attachment logic, you can um approach disagreements from a much better place, I think. And I think a lot of people don't know that the logic. I recently have these two rules of secure engagement to really help people in an argument. argument. argument. What are they? I'd love to hear. So, the first rule, and it all has to do I'll explain the attachment logic and then I'll explain the rule.

Uh because as I told you before, when you really think about secure attachment and really the role of a secure relationship, it's to really help regulate our emotions. Secure relationships are very, very good in regulating our emotions. Like I said before, there's no Xanax or Klonopin in the world that comes even close to that. So, if we accept the that the role of a secure relationship is to help regulate our emotions, then like we can also accept the first rule that the only one person is allowed to be upset at a time in any given argument because if you're upset, then it's my role now to help help you regulate your emotions and help you through to to calm down.

And that's really the basic tenant of a secure relationship. Um, but unfortunately, it's not always easy. So, when the one person is upset to stay calm because when we're attached to people, it's like we are almost become like one theological unit and the feelings reverberate between people. Uh, so when two people are upset, often time what happens, they say, "Wait a second, there's the first rule. Only one person is allowed to be upset at a time and I was upset first, so it's my turn." And they start laughing about it and that helps diffuse some of the the tension.

But let's say even that's there beyond that, even that doesn't help uh, diffuse the anger and both are now upset. So, then comes the second rule, which is the I call it the mea culpa rule, it's my fault rule. So, if you're both upset now, then you both have to apologize to each other. other. other. And often time people get so hung up on who's right and who's wrong and there's like they try to argue their case through like, "No, but I need you a dad, I need you to understand me and no, I'm right here, so you need to really understand it so you can give me what I need." But it's really a big mistake because often time attachment cuz that's a lot of prefrontal cortex chatter.

But if you like but you have to remember that attachment is pre-language. We get attached way before we can even speak and it has a different logic. It doesn't care about who's right and who's wrong. It cares about being connected and it cares it's upset because of the disruption of the connectedness. So, from the point of view of attachment, you both have to upset for disruption disrupting that connection. So, you can say, "You know, I'm really sorry that I I I like wasn't help I wasn't able to help you calm down, that I actually made it even even worse by actually me getting upset and now you became more upset and it was just like not going anywhere good.

So, I'm really sorry about that. I really want to help us feel better and I'm like how what can I do?" Or and you can say something else similar to that effect. So, both parties really apologize really apologize really apologize about not being able to bring it down a notch. And if you want to argue about who's right and who's wrong, you can do it tomorrow or once you've calmed down and from my experience, people don't really care usually about who was right and who was wrong.

They just want to feel that connectedness again. Yeah, I'm I'm kind of in a self-critical space as I'm listening to you talk here because because because I think I'm the I just have historically such a need to be right that I can't imagine myself not being able to follow these two rules. But the other thing maybe that potentially would be helpful is to understand that because of these different attachment styles and because we see the world from a very different perspective, both people can be right at the same time.

So, I can give you so many examples. Let's say like a couple that are dating. They're going out, they're spending really like an amazing weekend together and they're very close to one another and then come Monday, the avoidant person forgets to they usually text on Monday morning every morning, he forgets to text cuz you know, he needs a little bit more distance or she. It can be he or she, doesn't matter. It's like it's not uh it women are avoidant, too. But then the other person who's more anxious is like, "Oh my god, it's the beginning of the end.

I know this this is all too familiar. There was too much closeness and now they're backing away. I I I'm sure this is it. I know this is it." And so, they try to text you but you ignore like you don't really see it, you don't text back. Later on at night, you talk. you talk. you talk. The other person is much is really upset, they're cold or they lash out or they say something and then you're the avoidant, you think "What do they want from me?

I just gave them so much all this weekend and now they want more. There's no no end to how much they to their neediness." So, So, So, in a way you're both right because you have both have these different scripts in your head. But, if you understand attachment logic, then you can understand that this one person needs more of their distance and this other person needs that stability. And then you can say, "Yeah, you know what? You're right because I wasn't able to be stable and then you're right because now I'm like I'm aggravating like what whatever is going on and let's just like both apologize because we haven't dealt with that attachment baseline well enough in order to like be able to keep it all like stable." It sounds like if we have a basic understanding of attachment theory, we can avoid so many fights and so much unnecessary anger.

unnecessary anger. unnecessary anger. So much. If we understand the basic law of attachment logic, which is a different logic than our intellectual logic. It really lives in our emotional brain about being connected. So, it really operates from a different brain area and it's completely and we we understand that logic, we can avoid so many issues. Like if you're avoidant and you understand, "Oh, there's an attachment baseline and I always text on Monday and if I don't text on Monday, that's going to be like like then they're going to hit hit hit up my phone." Then you don't really feel, "Oh my god, they're like now trying to get my independence away." No, you understand, you know, that's what I did.

So, I'm getting I'm getting the attachment backlash. It helps in so many different ways and they're little things. Remember because it's really more about the Siamese. It's about little like little tricks that you can change in little ways that can go so much further than most people even can imagine. imagine. imagine. My parents live in assisted living. my dad had a stroke so he can't really talk well. well. well. Uh he can't even hear well either. Um and so and so and so my parents have this little thing that when they see each other across the room, they give each other the finger.

And it's kind of they're they laugh, they think it's funny. And that's like a little see me, it's like their little love language. love language. love language. 100% 100% it's like it's this back and forth of connectedness and it's like it's just really actually gives me goosebumps to hear that because I have to say since writing uh attached and then secure then secure then secure part of the problem is that we often time ignore the secure people in our lives because they're so dependable and they're always there for us and there's no drama and especially if you're insecure you're like I know I mean you you gravitate to more like like trying to fix or the insecurity but I really learned to I've fallen in love with the secures of this world um like over this process of writing these two books and doing this new type of therapy but also seeing that we all have the secure potential in each and every one of us that can be called out and really some part of the whole idea of the corporate intervention is to reach into that secure potential that I think resides in each and every one of us and and bring that out and give it give it a chance to come out and and really show itself.

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We've talked about a bunch of tools. Have we hit them all? I seem to remember there's um there's um there's um an idea you have about working on your secure spiel. That's a Yiddish term for your secure story, your rap. [clears throat] [clears throat] [clears throat] Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. narrative. I think So, there are there are specific tools also for avoidance uh that I can talk about, but also the secure spiel, the secure narrative, is more about how That's really like it talks about like the third part of the book.

It's about the secure mind. And it's really these different ideas cuz in the first two parts I talk about the secure brain, and then the second part is about how to get into secure mode. So, if you have these different attachment styles, the how to use the seenies and the carp to actually get into that secure mode. And the third part of the book that I really got that you asked me about because I hardly ever get a chance to talk about is about the secure mind and these different ideas that stand in the way from us becoming more secure.

So, one of them is having all sorts of different ideas in our head about often time things that I call in the book hidden sparks of talent that we see as impediments or that we don't really understand that are like we have these innate biological talents, but we have a different salary in our head that comes in the way from seeing how we can actually by finding the right environment, they can really flourish. Some of the work that we do in secure priming therapy is look at what we some of what we believe as impediments and see that often time they can actually potential strengths that are misunderstood are misunderstood are misunderstood or they just don't have the right setup in order to really flourish.

Tell me a little bit more about how that would work specifically if if for example I'm a an anxious and insecure attachment style. attachment style. attachment style. So, someone who has like for example an anxious attachment style, what I describe in the book and they see it like when you go through the data, it's really amazing to see even though I have to say that even some of the research is biased because they always show that they have a sixth sense for danger, but when you look at the data you see that they really can notice patterns and notice little subtleties that other people can't see.

I'll give you one example of a patient that came to me when when when this woman this woman this woman basically ghosted him and he was in in immense pain. It was really really bad and he was just said, "You know, I want you to extract this anxious attachment from my brain." And I said, "You know, well you know, it doesn't exactly work like that. We can't exactly extract it from your brain, but also this person was hugely wealthy and he did most of his fortune in the stock market.

And I explained to him, you know, you have this sixth sense of identifying trends before anybody else can and that really worked for you in an amazing way because that's part of how you made all of this like massive wealth that you have by by noticing different trends in the market and betting on them way before anybody else could. So, would you still want to get rid of it? I can help you. I can teach you how to really navigate the whole dating world to find more secure people, but you wouldn't want to get rid of all of it.

It's almost like, you know, these movies with the people with superpowers and how initially when they try to use them, it's like it backfires because they don't know how to control their power. It's a little bit like that with people with anxious attachment. It's learning how to hold in your instincts and your ability to identify things in their environment in a way that works for you and not against you. Tell me if I'm close to being able to summarize this. summarize this. summarize this. We The goal here is we want to be as secure as possible as much of the time as possible.

However, and somewhat counterintuitively, the way to reach that goal is not to make our anxious or avoidant or anxious avoidant tendencies bad. It's to come up with a spiel or a story about ourselves that allows them to to to allows us to use the natural upsides of these um these um these um tendencies to our advantage to get us closer to secure. It's a three-part scenario. First, you have to understand what your social brain needs. Then, you understand your attachment style and what are the specific social brain needs for your specific attachment style.

And then, once you accept that, then you can create an environment for yourself that would actually counteract some of your bold beliefs about other people. And by doing that, by showing the brain different evidence, you see these thingies, like people are not always going to try to leave you. People are actually can be there for you. People can show up for you. Then that's how the brain changes on a molecular level when you really engulf it in in an environment social environment that is filled with those carp thingies.

carp thingies. carp thingies. And then the latter part is those different ideas that stand in the way. And it's funny because a lot of the time people come to therapy and they think, "Oh, acceptance is just a way it's a it's a way it's a wishy-washy thing the therapist say. You just have to learn to accept how you are and instead of really trying to change them." But if you understand the brain, it's the first step of changing because once you understand this is how I am, this is my biology, like, "Yeah, I'm more of an introvert and I'm I'm a better writer than someone who's going to be able to climb up the corporate ladder.

So, maybe I should work from home home more and look after the kids and also write. And then my wife is going to go out and work in the corporate world instead of me." Really finding and honing in on your talents and giving yourself the right biology instead of trying to say, "No, I shouldn't let this bother me. I should muscle through this. I shouldn't let the the fact that someone ignored me get to me because guess what? Our social brain doesn't care what you think or what you should or shouldn't do.

It will care. And the opposite is true. If you create the right environment, like you like there's the the amount of potential that you can reach from your brain is almost endless. Okay, so leave us with some closing wisdom here. Like send us out into the world with a way to think about think about think about most effectively most effectively most effectively helping our uh quotient. I would say first really like figure out where your your attachment topography is, not just so you really get a whole map of your social realm and where you fit in that realm, and then you start to see who are the secure people in your life.

And you can really learn to give them to really up the volume there because often time I told you often times some people tend to really ignore them and not give them the value that they should be given because these are and essentially this these are your vehicles for change. The more the more you increase the volume on these people and the more you increase those seamings those interactions with them, them, them, the more they'll teach you how to become more secure. The other part that we didn't talk about is like the and not all of us have pets, but the importance of pets in helping us become more secure because I have a dog and to me specifically he's not like the easiest dog in the world.

He loves my partner and he whenever I come to pet him he growls at me. You can even see my partner like pets him he's happy and can be like more more more. When I pet him he growls at me immediately, but I've learned to really accept him for who he is and I've learned to love him so dearly. so dearly. so dearly. And I think our pets really remind us and pets have attachment styles too. Some love closeness, some like more more distance, but I think we really give the people the pets around us more the benefit of the doubt than we give the humans around us.

So for those of us who have pets to really use that as a potential framework of how we can also become more securely attached to the people around us. This has been great. So fun to talk to you. Is there anything else that you were hoping to get to that we didn't? No, I mean you know that the book really describes a whole sort of method of therapy. There's so much there. It's hard to really summarize it even in a in a short conversation. I really the way that I wrote it, it's like if you read it and went through all the different exercises, it's almost like being in a whole year of therapy with me.

It's kind of like the equivalent of that. So, I think we've covered a lot and hopefully people can take home some of these ideas of changing the social realm, really learning to accept they're looking for their hidden sparks of talent, and inching those carp seenies and inching towards greater security. Amir [clears throat] Levine, the book is called Secure, The Revolutionary Guide to Creating a Secure Life. It It follows on on on his previous book, which was a huge bestseller called Attached, and his website, I'm going to try to recreate it from memory, is amirlevinemd.com.

Am I right about that? Correct. Yes, thanks, Dan. Yeah, what a pleasure to talk to you. Thank you so much for your time. Same here. I really enjoyed it. Thanks a lot, Dan. lot, Dan. lot, Dan. Thank you so much to everybody who worked so hard to make this show, 10% Happier is produced by Tara Anderson and Eleanor Vassili. Our recording and engineering is handled by the great folks over at Pod People. Lauren Smith is our managing producer. Uh Marissa Schneiderman is our senior producer. DJ Cashmere is our executive producer.

And Nick Thorburn of the great indie rock band Islands band Islands band Islands wrote our theme. One last thing I want to say before you go, if you enjoy this show, please do me {slash} us a solid. Follow the show and leave a rating and a review on whatever platform you watch or listen to us on. It only takes a minute. It's free, and it really helps new people find us and spread uh the good news that the mind is trainable. Thank you. Sincerely, I mean, thank you.