The Simplest Way To Make $1M In 2026

We have this podcast called My First We have this podcast called My First Million where we're coming with all Million where we're coming with all Million where we're coming with all these complicated schemes of how these complicated schemes of how these complicated schemes of how somebody can make their first million. somebody can make their first million. somebody can make their first million. Meanwhile, in the relationship, Sarah Meanwhile, in the relationship, Sarah Meanwhile, in the relationship, Sarah made her first million before Sam with made her first million before Sam with made her first million before Sam with the simplest scheme of all. Okay. So, we invited our buddies from Okay. So, we invited our buddies from TBPN, John and Jordy, here to do one of TBPN, John and Jordy, here to do one of TBPN, John and Jordy, here to do one of our favorite episodes that we do every our favorite episodes that we do every our favorite episodes that we do every year called Sarah's List. It's called year called Sarah's List. It's called year called Sarah's List. It's called Sarah's List in honor of the queen Sarah's List in honor of the queen Sarah's List in honor of the queen herself, Sam's wife, Sarah. You know, herself, Sam's wife, Sarah. You know, herself, Sam's wife, Sarah. You know, it's a classic story really. She just it's a classic story really. She just it's a classic story really. She just joined an company that was clearly joined an company that was clearly joined an company that was clearly already great as like employee 3000 and already great as like employee 3000 and already great as like employee 3000 and the math was like this. She got a job at the math was like this. She got a job at the math was like this. She got a job at Airbnb and I think it was, you know, her Airbnb and I think it was, you know, her Airbnb and I think it was, you know, her numbers aside, the general math is you numbers aside, the general math is you numbers aside, the general math is you get a job and they'll offer you maybe get a job and they'll offer you maybe get a job and they'll offer you maybe like a 40 or 50k a year stock package in like a 40 or 50k a year stock package in like a 40 or 50k a year stock package in addition to your salary. So you get your addition to your salary. So you get your addition to your salary. So you get your salary, you get your health care, they salary, you get your health care, they salary, you get your health care, they got a kitchen where they're serving you got a kitchen where they're serving you got a kitchen where they're serving you lunch, they got oat milk in the fridge. lunch, they got oat milk in the fridge. lunch, they got oat milk in the fridge. So you're not sacrificing anything. She So you're not sacrificing anything. She So you're not sacrificing anything. She didn't have to come up with the idea of didn't have to come up with the idea of didn't have to come up with the idea of Airbnb. She joined it. She wasn't the Airbnb. She joined it. She wasn't the Airbnb. She joined it. She wasn't the first employee grinding like crazy. She first employee grinding like crazy. She first employee grinding like crazy. She was employee 3,000. But that stock was employee 3,000. But that stock was employee 3,000. But that stock package, which over a 4-year period is, package, which over a 4-year period is, package, which over a 4-year period is, you know, you're granted about $200,000 you know, you're granted about $200,000 you know, you're granted about $200,000 worth of stock, 5xed and she made a worth of stock, 5xed and she made a worth of stock, 5xed and she made a million bucks before either me or Sam. million bucks before either me or Sam. million bucks before either me or Sam. And so we kind of wanted to honor the And so we kind of wanted to honor the And so we kind of wanted to honor the brilliance that is joining companies brilliance that is joining companies brilliance that is joining companies that are already clear winners that are already clear winners that are already clear winners especially in tech because the winners especially in tech because the winners especially in tech because the winners can run so far. can run so far. can run so far. >> And so every um every few years me and >> And so every um every few years me and >> And so every um every few years me and Sam have done this where we come up with Sam have done this where we come up with Sam have done this where we come up with our list. We call it Sarah's list which our list. We call it Sarah's list which our list. We call it Sarah's list which is the the 10 companies you would join is the the 10 companies you would join is the the 10 companies you would join right now because as a person your time right now because as a person your time right now because as a person your time is essentially your investment right you is essentially your investment right you is essentially your investment right you when you join a company that's an act of when you join a company that's an act of when you join a company that's an act of an investment. It's funny because I know an investment. It's funny because I know an investment. It's funny because I know some investors who did who who made an some investors who did who who made an some investors who did who who made an investment in that unicorn round and investment in that unicorn round and investment in that unicorn round and they had the exact same logic. They were they had the exact same logic. They were they had the exact same logic. They were like complete parl market fid obvious like complete parl market fid obvious like complete parl market fid obvious runner like just put just pile money runner like just put just pile money runner like just put just pile money into this like easy investment and then into this like easy investment and then into this like easy investment and then it worked. it worked. it worked. >> She joined I think at the $18 million >> She joined I think at the $18 million >> She joined I think at the $18 million valuation something like that. Okay. And valuation something like that. Okay. And valuation something like that. Okay. And then co happened and we were like well then co happened and we were like well then co happened and we were like well >> [ __ ] that was a good idea sucks it >> [ __ ] that was a good idea sucks it >> [ __ ] that was a good idea sucks it didn't work didn't work didn't work >> and then uh obviously everything changed >> and then uh obviously everything changed >> and then uh obviously everything changed in six months and then I think it it in six months and then I think it it in six months and then I think it it IPOed around hundred billion and you IPOed around hundred billion and you IPOed around hundred billion and you guys remember that famous interview with guys remember that famous interview with guys remember that famous interview with Brian Chesky where he's told on air he's Brian Chesky where he's told on air he's Brian Chesky where he's told on air he's like the share price is this and it's like the share price is this and it's like the share price is this and it's worth hundred billion he's like I I worth hundred billion he's like I I worth hundred billion he's like I I >> I didn't know that until just now >> I didn't know that until just now >> I didn't know that until just now because back then in 2019 or 18 when it because back then in 2019 or 18 when it because back then in 2019 or 18 when it was $18 million we were like this could was $18 million we were like this could was $18 million we were like this could be worth like $30 billion like, you be worth like $30 billion like, you be worth like $30 billion like, you know, like if everything works. know, like if everything works. know, like if everything works. >> Yeah. Like if everything works. And so >> Yeah. Like if everything works. And so >> Yeah. Like if everything works. And so anyway, that was her story and it worked anyway, that was her story and it worked anyway, that was her story and it worked out great because she worked a normal out great because she worked a normal out great because she worked a normal amount, had great maternity, paternity amount, had great maternity, paternity amount, had great maternity, paternity uh uh uh package, had great benefits, uh uh uh package, had great benefits, uh uh uh package, had great benefits, all that stuff. And so we've done this all that stuff. And so we've done this all that stuff. And so we've done this for a few years, but you want to you for a few years, but you want to you for a few years, but you want to you know something? We've actually haven't know something? We've actually haven't know something? We've actually haven't actually done this in like 18 months actually done this in like 18 months actually done this in like 18 months because it's been so hard these last 20 because it's been so hard these last 20 because it's been so hard these last 20 or 24 months with everything going on or 24 months with everything going on or 24 months with everything going on with AI. And so you guys are pretty cool with AI. And so you guys are pretty cool with AI. And so you guys are pretty cool to have because I think you'll know a to have because I think you'll know a to have because I think you'll know a lot more about some of the latest and lot more about some of the latest and lot more about some of the latest and greatest. greatest. greatest. >> Yeah, we wanted you guys on because not >> Yeah, we wanted you guys on because not >> Yeah, we wanted you guys on because not only not only do you guys are you guys only not only do you guys are you guys only not only do you guys are you guys super smart, but you guys part of your super smart, but you guys part of your super smart, but you guys part of your show is you're talking to the CEOs of show is you're talking to the CEOs of show is you're talking to the CEOs of these companies in these like 15-minute these companies in these like 15-minute these companies in these like 15-minute interviews every single day. And so interviews every single day. And so interviews every single day. And so you're getting a good sense for kind of you're getting a good sense for kind of you're getting a good sense for kind of like who's who's doing well, who do you like who's who's doing well, who do you like who's who's doing well, who do you believe, what what companies excite you. believe, what what companies excite you. believe, what what companies excite you. So we wanted to hear what you guys have. So we wanted to hear what you guys have. So we wanted to hear what you guys have. By the way, last time Sam, I went back By the way, last time Sam, I went back By the way, last time Sam, I went back and checked. I think of the 10 companies and checked. I think of the 10 companies and checked. I think of the 10 companies that we did in our last round which was that we did in our last round which was that we did in our last round which was something like 18 months ago or two two something like 18 months ago or two two something like 18 months ago or two two 18 months two years ago something like 18 months two years ago something like 18 months two years ago something like that I think we got six out of 10 that that I think we got six out of 10 that that I think we got six out of 10 that are like already either there or pacing are like already either there or pacing are like already either there or pacing to be there. So, for example, like when to be there. So, for example, like when to be there. So, for example, like when we did Open AI and we were laughing, we we did Open AI and we were laughing, we we did Open AI and we were laughing, we were like, uh, hey, here's a shocker or were like, uh, hey, here's a shocker or were like, uh, hey, here's a shocker or OpenAI, it was a hundred billion dollar OpenAI, it was a hundred billion dollar OpenAI, it was a hundred billion dollar valuation at the time. It's now like, valuation at the time. It's now like, valuation at the time. It's now like, you know, close to 800 uh, billion now. you know, close to 800 uh, billion now. you know, close to 800 uh, billion now. And so, and we even said like, look, And so, and we even said like, look, And so, and we even said like, look, there's no bonus points for difficulty there's no bonus points for difficulty there's no bonus points for difficulty in life, in the game of business. Like, in life, in the game of business. Like, in life, in the game of business. Like, sometimes the best companies are just sometimes the best companies are just sometimes the best companies are just hidden in plain sight. They're right in hidden in plain sight. They're right in hidden in plain sight. They're right in front of you. And so, I think we've done front of you. And so, I think we've done front of you. And so, I think we've done pretty well. pretty well. pretty well. >> The biggest one was uh was Andre. We did >> The biggest one was uh was Andre. We did >> The biggest one was uh was Andre. We did Android in 21 I think and that was four Android in 21 I think and that was four Android in 21 I think and that was four billion at the time and I think it's 90 billion at the time and I think it's 90 billion at the time and I think it's 90 or I I don't remember or I I don't remember or I I don't remember >> and a lot of those companies should stay >> and a lot of those companies should stay >> and a lot of those companies should stay on the list honestly like I think you on the list honestly like I think you on the list honestly like I think you know even even if you just done Android know even even if you just done Android know even even if you just done Android last year like the valuation has last year like the valuation has last year like the valuation has increased so much that it still makes increased so much that it still makes increased so much that it still makes sense to include in the list. sense to include in the list. sense to include in the list. >> Yeah. The biggest mistake that people >> Yeah. The biggest mistake that people >> Yeah. The biggest mistake that people make is not going with an obvious winner make is not going with an obvious winner make is not going with an obvious winner because it's already in the multiple because it's already in the multiple because it's already in the multiple billions and it just looks like, okay, billions and it just looks like, okay, billions and it just looks like, okay, what what's the potential upside from what what's the potential upside from what what's the potential upside from here and and that's just been wrong so here and and that's just been wrong so here and and that's just been wrong so many times in the last uh 10 years. many times in the last uh 10 years. many times in the last uh 10 years. I've talked before about the way that I I've talked before about the way that I I've talked before about the way that I know how to make money, about how to know how to make money, about how to know how to make money, about how to build a money-making skill, about how to build a money-making skill, about how to build a money-making skill, about how to leverage your time and energy, and the leverage your time and energy, and the leverage your time and energy, and the team at HubSpot actually went through team at HubSpot actually went through team at HubSpot actually went through the video where I explained all that and the video where I explained all that and the video where I explained all that and turned it into a free downloadable cheat turned it into a free downloadable cheat turned it into a free downloadable cheat sheet on my four rules of how to make sheet on my four rules of how to make sheet on my four rules of how to make money. Now, this is not, you know, get money. Now, this is not, you know, get money. Now, this is not, you know, get rich quick advice. It's just core rich quick advice. It's just core rich quick advice. It's just core principles, foundational principles principles, foundational principles principles, foundational principles about building wealth, things that I about building wealth, things that I about building wealth, things that I wish I knew when I was, you know, just wish I knew when I was, you know, just wish I knew when I was, you know, just getting started. And so, if you want to getting started. And so, if you want to getting started. And so, if you want to download it, it's in the description download it, it's in the description download it, it's in the description below. It's totally free. You can go get below. It's totally free. You can go get below. It's totally free. You can go get it. Thanks to the folks at HubSpot for it. Thanks to the folks at HubSpot for it. Thanks to the folks at HubSpot for doing the research, making this doing the research, making this doing the research, making this document, and making it available to all document, and making it available to all document, and making it available to all you guys. All right, back to this you guys. All right, back to this you guys. All right, back to this episode. episode. episode. Um, all right, so let's jump in. Uh, we Um, all right, so let's jump in. Uh, we Um, all right, so let's jump in. Uh, we each have roughly three each. We're each have roughly three each. We're each have roughly three each. We're going to try to get 12, maybe some going to try to get 12, maybe some going to try to get 12, maybe some bonus, some honorable mentions. bonus, some honorable mentions. bonus, some honorable mentions. >> Cool. >> Cool. >> Cool. >> My first pick, this is a company you >> My first pick, this is a company you >> My first pick, this is a company you guys might not even know about, guys might not even know about, guys might not even know about, >> which I like. I like to surprise you, >> which I like. I like to surprise you, >> which I like. I like to surprise you, but I'm coming in strong here. Zuru but I'm coming in strong here. Zuru but I'm coming in strong here. Zuru Tech. Okay, Zuro Techch is a company Tech. Okay, Zuro Techch is a company Tech. Okay, Zuro Techch is a company that's based out of New Zealand that's based out of New Zealand that's based out of New Zealand >> and they're the third biggest toy >> and they're the third biggest toy >> and they're the third biggest toy company in the world. So, they make, if company in the world. So, they make, if company in the world. So, they make, if you've ever seen mini brands, Sam's a you've ever seen mini brands, Sam's a you've ever seen mini brands, Sam's a big mini mini food collector. He likes big mini mini food collector. He likes big mini mini food collector. He likes the little mini toys. U they make some the little mini toys. U they make some the little mini toys. U they make some of the most popular toys in the world. of the most popular toys in the world. of the most popular toys in the world. The the bunch of balloons where you can The the bunch of balloons where you can The the bunch of balloons where you can fill up 30 water balloons at once, you fill up 30 water balloons at once, you fill up 30 water balloons at once, you know, that type of stuff. So, the know, that type of stuff. So, the know, that type of stuff. So, the founder, Nick, came on the podcast. He's founder, Nick, came on the podcast. He's founder, Nick, came on the podcast. He's the wealthiest man in New Zealand, and the wealthiest man in New Zealand, and the wealthiest man in New Zealand, and his story is insane. Like, probably the his story is insane. Like, probably the his story is insane. Like, probably the craziest grind story I've ever heard. By craziest grind story I've ever heard. By craziest grind story I've ever heard. By the end of the episode, I told him, I the end of the episode, I told him, I the end of the episode, I told him, I go, "I think you're the closest thing to go, "I think you're the closest thing to go, "I think you're the closest thing to Elon Musk that I've ever seen. Um, Elon Musk that I've ever seen. Um, Elon Musk that I've ever seen. Um, people just don't know about you because people just don't know about you because people just don't know about you because you live on the other side of the world you live on the other side of the world you live on the other side of the world and you were in the toy industry, so and you were in the toy industry, so and you were in the toy industry, so kind of people overlook you." Um, so kind of people overlook you." Um, so kind of people overlook you." Um, so he's got a new company and his new he's got a new company and his new he's got a new company and his new company, uh, or it's actually based in company, uh, or it's actually based in company, uh, or it's actually based in there. It's they're building homes there. It's they're building homes there. It's they're building homes with a factory. Basically, here's what with a factory. Basically, here's what with a factory. Basically, here's what you do. He's got a three, you know, it's you do. He's got a three, you know, it's you do. He's got a three, you know, it's like chat GPT. You just describe, you like chat GPT. You just describe, you like chat GPT. You just describe, you drop a pin where you're going to put the drop a pin where you're going to put the drop a pin where you're going to put the home. It automatically, no matter where home. It automatically, no matter where home. It automatically, no matter where in the world, any country in the world, in the world, any country in the world, in the world, any country in the world, any city in the world, any neighborhood any city in the world, any neighborhood any city in the world, any neighborhood in the world you put it, it in the world you put it, it in the world you put it, it automatically downloads all it has all automatically downloads all it has all automatically downloads all it has all of the building codes and the permitting of the building codes and the permitting of the building codes and the permitting and the terrain. So, it knows if you're and the terrain. So, it knows if you're and the terrain. So, it knows if you're on an incline or if there's a hill there on an incline or if there's a hill there on an incline or if there's a hill there or whatever, right? It has all of that or whatever, right? It has all of that or whatever, right? It has all of that already built in and it's called already built in and it's called already built in and it's called Dreamcatcher. So, you basically describe Dreamcatcher. So, you basically describe Dreamcatcher. So, you basically describe the home you want. You're like, "Oh, I the home you want. You're like, "Oh, I the home you want. You're like, "Oh, I want this like kind of minimalist, blah want this like kind of minimalist, blah want this like kind of minimalist, blah blah blah, 5,000 ft. Make it cool, blah blah blah, 5,000 ft. Make it cool, blah blah blah, 5,000 ft. Make it cool, blah blah blah." So, you basically describe blah blah." So, you basically describe blah blah." So, you basically describe like Chad GPD, the home you want like Chad GPD, the home you want like Chad GPD, the home you want >> and it renders it all using like Unreal >> and it renders it all using like Unreal >> and it renders it all using like Unreal Engine. Uh, so it renders the whole Engine. Uh, so it renders the whole Engine. Uh, so it renders the whole thing in front of you. It creates like thing in front of you. It creates like thing in front of you. It creates like an AI video of like a home walkthrough an AI video of like a home walkthrough an AI video of like a home walkthrough for you using kind of like a, you know, for you using kind of like a, you know, for you using kind of like a, you know, midjourney type of thing. And then you midjourney type of thing. And then you midjourney type of thing. And then you literally like build the home. You click literally like build the home. You click literally like build the home. You click it and he's got a factory in China it and he's got a factory in China it and he's got a factory in China that's like the iPhone building factory, that's like the iPhone building factory, that's like the iPhone building factory, but it actually builds all of the but it actually builds all of the but it actually builds all of the subcomponents for this home. And it's subcomponents for this home. And it's subcomponents for this home. And it's insane. Like they went and bought like insane. Like they went and bought like insane. Like they went and bought like uh when the Palisades fire happened and uh when the Palisades fire happened and uh when the Palisades fire happened and people needed to sell their lots, they people needed to sell their lots, they people needed to sell their lots, they bought like $80 million worth of lots in bought like $80 million worth of lots in bought like $80 million worth of lots in LA. And he's building he's basically LA. And he's building he's basically LA. And he's building he's basically going to print these I say print just going to print these I say print just going to print these I say print just it's it's building with a robot. it's it's building with a robot. it's it's building with a robot. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Like $50 million homes in LA. And so >> Like $50 million homes in LA. And so >> Like $50 million homes in LA. And so this guy it was the most impressive demo this guy it was the most impressive demo this guy it was the most impressive demo I've ever seen seeing the homes that I've ever seen seeing the homes that I've ever seen seeing the homes that they're building. they're building. they're building. >> And it's real. Like this guy is he's >> And it's real. Like this guy is he's >> And it's real. Like this guy is he's basically like, you know, manufacturing basically like, you know, manufacturing basically like, you know, manufacturing genius. Him and his brother. Uh they genius. Him and his brother. Uh they genius. Him and his brother. Uh they have huge factories in China to be able have huge factories in China to be able have huge factories in China to be able to do this stuff. And the crazy thing to do this stuff. And the crazy thing to do this stuff. And the crazy thing about homes is homes is a space that's about homes is homes is a space that's about homes is homes is a space that's really never been touched by by really never been touched by by really never been touched by by definitely not AI, but really even most definitely not AI, but really even most definitely not AI, but really even most technology doesn't really uh go into technology doesn't really uh go into technology doesn't really uh go into construction and home construction. And construction and home construction. And construction and home construction. And when you're selling homes that are when you're selling homes that are when you're selling homes that are multi-million dollar homes, you don't multi-million dollar homes, you don't multi-million dollar homes, you don't have to sell that many of them to be have to sell that many of them to be have to sell that many of them to be doing billions in revenue. And so if doing billions in revenue. And so if doing billions in revenue. And so if there was one company that I could kind there was one company that I could kind there was one company that I could kind of empty the tank of my life savings of empty the tank of my life savings of empty the tank of my life savings into, I would be pouring it into this, into, I would be pouring it into this, into, I would be pouring it into this, which means it's a contender for Sarah's which means it's a contender for Sarah's which means it's a contender for Sarah's list for me. list for me. list for me. >> Love it. >> Love it. >> Love it. >> Wow. Great case. Did he talk at all >> Wow. Great case. Did he talk at all >> Wow. Great case. Did he talk at all about why previous attempts in this about why previous attempts in this about why previous attempts in this category haven't worked? Because there's category haven't worked? Because there's category haven't worked? Because there's been there's been a number there's kind been there's been a number there's kind been there's been a number there's kind of like a I like this uh I like this bet of like a I like this uh I like this bet of like a I like this uh I like this bet because there's actually like a because there's actually like a because there's actually like a graveyard of Silicon Valley companies graveyard of Silicon Valley companies graveyard of Silicon Valley companies that have like made efforts. that have like made efforts. that have like made efforts. >> Yeah. Cuz he's not a Silicon Valley >> Yeah. Cuz he's not a Silicon Valley >> Yeah. Cuz he's not a Silicon Valley company. He's a guy him and his brother company. He's a guy him and his brother company. He's a guy him and his brother have been basically been building have been basically been building have been basically been building factories in China for like the last 20 factories in China for like the last 20 factories in China for like the last 20 years. years. years. >> So they're a manufacturing powerhouse. >> So they're a manufacturing powerhouse. >> So they're a manufacturing powerhouse. So, for example, they were in the toy So, for example, they were in the toy So, for example, they were in the toy space and they became the third largest space and they became the third largest space and they became the third largest toy company in the world. They do like toy company in the world. They do like toy company in the world. They do like over a billion dollars of pure profit a over a billion dollars of pure profit a over a billion dollars of pure profit a year just into the two brothers pockets. year just into the two brothers pockets. year just into the two brothers pockets. Like, it's crazy. Then they went into uh Like, it's crazy. Then they went into uh Like, it's crazy. Then they went into uh the diaper space. They're like, "Oh, you the diaper space. They're like, "Oh, you the diaper space. They're like, "Oh, you know what? Let's go compete in one of know what? Let's go compete in one of know what? Let's go compete in one of the most like difficult to compete with the most like difficult to compete with the most like difficult to compete with things against Proctor and Gamble and he things against Proctor and Gamble and he things against Proctor and Gamble and he built the fastest growing and now I built the fastest growing and now I built the fastest growing and now I think I think it's if it's not the think I think it's if it's not the think I think it's if it's not the number one, it's basically right up number one, it's basically right up number one, it's basically right up there with Huggies and Pampers now. um there with Huggies and Pampers now. um there with Huggies and Pampers now. um even though it's brand new diapers even though it's brand new diapers even though it's brand new diapers company uh you know they're selling in company uh you know they're selling in company uh you know they're selling in Target, Walmart like crazy and they Target, Walmart like crazy and they Target, Walmart like crazy and they manufacture their own diapers and the manufacture their own diapers and the manufacture their own diapers and the reason why was he found that in China reason why was he found that in China reason why was he found that in China there was like a different style of there was like a different style of there was like a different style of diaper manufacturing different materials diaper manufacturing different materials diaper manufacturing different materials and he basically brought that to market and he basically brought that to market and he basically brought that to market um in the US and so he built the largest um in the US and so he built the largest um in the US and so he built the largest that uh then they did the same thing in that uh then they did the same thing in that uh then they did the same thing in hair care and they did it with they have hair care and they did it with they have hair care and they did it with they have the fastest growing brand on Tik Tok for the fastest growing brand on Tik Tok for the fastest growing brand on Tik Tok for hair care and now they're doing it for hair care and now they're doing it for hair care and now they're doing it for homes and so I think the big difference homes and so I think the big difference homes and so I think the big difference is like Elon hardware is hard and most is like Elon hardware is hard and most is like Elon hardware is hard and most software founders, you know, go in for a software founders, you know, go in for a software founders, you know, go in for a rude awakening when they go into rude awakening when they go into rude awakening when they go into hardware. Whereas these guys have been hardware. Whereas these guys have been hardware. Whereas these guys have been doing literally like not just hardware, doing literally like not just hardware, doing literally like not just hardware, but like the the building of the factory but like the the building of the factory but like the the building of the factory is the hard part. The factory that makes is the hard part. The factory that makes is the hard part. The factory that makes the product is sort of secondary to it, the product is sort of secondary to it, the product is sort of secondary to it, but building an highly automated factory but building an highly automated factory but building an highly automated factory is the number one one thing. And they've is the number one one thing. And they've is the number one one thing. And they've been building factories for a very very been building factories for a very very been building factories for a very very long time. It's actually hilarious. When long time. It's actually hilarious. When long time. It's actually hilarious. When they went to China to start their toy they went to China to start their toy they went to China to start their toy company, they built like he went there company, they built like he went there company, they built like he went there cuz he heard, "Oh, all the manufacturing cuz he heard, "Oh, all the manufacturing cuz he heard, "Oh, all the manufacturing happens in China." But what that usually happens in China." But what that usually happens in China." But what that usually means is you go find a manufacturer, you means is you go find a manufacturer, you means is you go find a manufacturer, you tell you tell them what you want to make tell you tell them what you want to make tell you tell them what you want to make and they make it. He went to China, and they make it. He went to China, and they make it. He went to China, didn't realize that, like a naive didn't realize that, like a naive didn't realize that, like a naive mistake, and built his own factory mistake, and built his own factory mistake, and built his own factory there, like on the side of a river. there, like on the side of a river. there, like on the side of a river. That's correct. That's correct. That's correct. >> Like did it all from scratch cuz he >> Like did it all from scratch cuz he >> Like did it all from scratch cuz he didn't understand like, oh, when people didn't understand like, oh, when people didn't understand like, oh, when people say they manufacture in China, it say they manufacture in China, it say they manufacture in China, it doesn't mean they go manufacture in doesn't mean they go manufacture in doesn't mean they go manufacture in China. They find an existing China. They find an existing China. They find an existing manufacturer. He he missed that part and manufacturer. He he missed that part and manufacturer. He he missed that part and just went the hard way from the just went the hard way from the just went the hard way from the beginning. beginning. beginning. >> That's funny. >> That's funny. >> That's funny. >> That's great. >> That's great. >> That's great. >> Sean, uh, sounds like Sounds like you >> Sean, uh, sounds like Sounds like you >> Sean, uh, sounds like Sounds like you don't like this guy at all. don't like this guy at all. don't like this guy at all. Did I say I'm a fan? I'm a fan of this Did I say I'm a fan? I'm a fan of this Did I say I'm a fan? I'm a fan of this guy. guy. guy. >> But will this actually work as the bear >> But will this actually work as the bear >> But will this actually work as the bear case? Like what what unpack that a case? Like what what unpack that a case? Like what what unpack that a little bit. little bit. little bit. >> Well, the the demo is so insane that >> Well, the the demo is so insane that >> Well, the the demo is so insane that >> you just have to ask the question like, >> you just have to ask the question like, >> you just have to ask the question like, is this like many AI products that demo is this like many AI products that demo is this like many AI products that demo well, but production sucks? well, but production sucks? well, but production sucks? >> Sure. Sure. Sure. >> Sure. Sure. Sure. >> Sure. Sure. Sure. >> And so basically the demo was so good. >> And so basically the demo was so good. >> And so basically the demo was so good. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Um that you know, you just kind of got >> Um that you know, you just kind of got >> Um that you know, you just kind of got to see a home first before you, you to see a home first before you, you to see a home first before you, you know, you fully believe. Well, I mean, I know, you fully believe. Well, I mean, I know, you fully believe. Well, I mean, I I would put uh like tariffs as more of I would put uh like tariffs as more of I would put uh like tariffs as more of the bare case. Like if if China America the bare case. Like if if China America the bare case. Like if if China America relations degrade further, then it's relations degrade further, then it's relations degrade further, then it's going to be harder to get stuff across going to be harder to get stuff across going to be harder to get stuff across the border. It's going to get hard. the border. It's going to get hard. the border. It's going to get hard. >> Well, here's the craziest part of the >> Well, here's the craziest part of the >> Well, here's the craziest part of the whole thing. Um I thought, you know, you whole thing. Um I thought, you know, you whole thing. Um I thought, you know, you try to find cost savings when you do try to find cost savings when you do try to find cost savings when you do stuff like whether you do it in China or stuff like whether you do it in China or stuff like whether you do it in China or you're like using new technology. And so you're like using new technology. And so you're like using new technology. And so the question was, is it 10%. Uh is it the question was, is it 10%. Uh is it the question was, is it 10%. Uh is it 20%? What how much is it? It's basically 20%? What how much is it? It's basically 20%? What how much is it? It's basically like like more than an order of like like more than an order of like like more than an order of magnitude. It's more than 10 times magnitude. It's more than 10 times magnitude. It's more than 10 times cheaper to build the homes this way. cheaper to build the homes this way. cheaper to build the homes this way. >> Um, which I think is the kind of the >> Um, which I think is the kind of the >> Um, which I think is the kind of the exciting part cuz if you can build the exciting part cuz if you can build the exciting part cuz if you can build the cost of build, if you can bring the cost cost of build, if you can bring the cost cost of build, if you can bring the cost of building down, you know, that's of building down, you know, that's of building down, you know, that's actually like very very meaningful for actually like very very meaningful for actually like very very meaningful for like I don't know progress in the world. like I don't know progress in the world. like I don't know progress in the world. >> But this breaks the whole point of the >> But this breaks the whole point of the >> But this breaks the whole point of the list. This does not sound I don't want list. This does not sound I don't want list. This does not sound I don't want to work with a person that sounds like to work with a person that sounds like to work with a person that sounds like Elon. Elon. Elon. >> There was no caveat that said the >> There was no caveat that said the >> There was no caveat that said the founder is completely sane. I didn't we founder is completely sane. I didn't we founder is completely sane. I didn't we didn't add that. It just said you join a didn't add that. It just said you join a didn't add that. It just said you join a company that's already got a existing company that's already got a existing company that's already got a existing these guys have a hugely successful these guys have a hugely successful these guys have a hugely successful business already but it has a chance to business already but it has a chance to business already but it has a chance to 5x cuz there's a there's a pathway 5x cuz there's a there's a pathway 5x cuz there's a there's a pathway there. All right. That was my first there. All right. That was my first there. All right. That was my first company. Uh let's switch to somebody company. Uh let's switch to somebody company. Uh let's switch to somebody else. else. else. >> Yeah. Let our guests go first. >> Yeah. Let our guests go first. >> Yeah. Let our guests go first. >> Let the guest go first. >> Let the guest go first. >> Let the guest go first. >> Let's be be good. >> Let's be be good. >> Let's be be good. >> Okay. Quick caveat. So uh we were under >> Okay. Quick caveat. So uh we were under >> Okay. Quick caveat. So uh we were under the impression that we had to be picking the impression that we had to be picking the impression that we had to be picking companies under a billion dollar companies under a billion dollar companies under a billion dollar valuation. It's a good kind of exercise valuation. It's a good kind of exercise valuation. It's a good kind of exercise uh and actually like understand that uh and actually like understand that uh and actually like understand that early stage today still means sub 1 early stage today still means sub 1 early stage today still means sub 1 billion basically. billion basically. billion basically. >> Are you carrying like a $5,000 handbag >> Are you carrying like a $5,000 handbag >> Are you carrying like a $5,000 handbag in that in that photo? in that in that photo? in that in that photo? >> Uh it's not it's a duffel bag. >> Uh it's not it's a duffel bag. >> Uh it's not it's a duffel bag. >> Can we do the origin of this? >> Can we do the origin of this? >> Can we do the origin of this? Well, well, so, so, so the I mean the Well, well, so, so, so the I mean the Well, well, so, so, so the I mean the bit the the the you know, origin of TVPN bit the the the you know, origin of TVPN bit the the the you know, origin of TVPN is uh other people have described it as, is uh other people have described it as, is uh other people have described it as, you know, uh ESPN for tech and business. you know, uh ESPN for tech and business. you know, uh ESPN for tech and business. Uh what's funny is that John and I do Uh what's funny is that John and I do Uh what's funny is that John and I do not watch any of the traditional not watch any of the traditional not watch any of the traditional American sports, football, basketball, American sports, football, basketball, American sports, football, basketball, baseball, etc. Anyway, first one, Varta baseball, etc. Anyway, first one, Varta baseball, etc. Anyway, first one, Varta Space Industries, helmed by none other Space Industries, helmed by none other Space Industries, helmed by none other than Delian aspir and Willbury. uh than Delian aspir and Willbury. uh than Delian aspir and Willbury. uh former SpaceX uh valuation 726 former SpaceX uh valuation 726 former SpaceX uh valuation 726 million but like one of those million but like one of those million but like one of those multi-deade projects that uh could have multi-deade projects that uh could have multi-deade projects that uh could have really really large TAM really really really really large TAM really really really really large TAM really really large expectations they do large expectations they do large expectations they do >> so they manufacture things in space so >> so they manufacture things in space so >> so they manufacture things in space so they do not build the rockets they they do not build the rockets they they do not build the rockets they partner with SpaceX to launch a capsule partner with SpaceX to launch a capsule partner with SpaceX to launch a capsule and then inside that capsule they and then inside that capsule they and then inside that capsule they effectively have created a manufacturing effectively have created a manufacturing effectively have created a manufacturing environment where gravity is an off environment where gravity is an off environment where gravity is an off switch. And so for certain things, switch. And so for certain things, switch. And so for certain things, imagine you're trying to grow a crystal imagine you're trying to grow a crystal imagine you're trying to grow a crystal or you're trying to grow a drug or heart or you're trying to grow a drug or heart or you're trying to grow a drug or heart tissue or there's applications for uh tissue or there's applications for uh tissue or there's applications for uh certain types of fiber. They're doing a certain types of fiber. They're doing a certain types of fiber. They're doing a lot of bio uh biomedical work right now. lot of bio uh biomedical work right now. lot of bio uh biomedical work right now. And then there's also defense And then there's also defense And then there's also defense applications. If you can get things up applications. If you can get things up applications. If you can get things up into space and get them down, there's a into space and get them down, there's a into space and get them down, there's a whole bunch of interesting things you whole bunch of interesting things you whole bunch of interesting things you can do there. And so the company's maybe can do there. And so the company's maybe can do there. And so the company's maybe four or five years old at this point, four or five years old at this point, four or five years old at this point, 150 employees based in Los Angeles. 150 employees based in Los Angeles. 150 employees based in Los Angeles. Obviously, you know, very hardworking Obviously, you know, very hardworking Obviously, you know, very hardworking environment, but especially with the new environment, but especially with the new environment, but especially with the new NASA administration, things are moving NASA administration, things are moving NASA administration, things are moving much faster. SpaceX, there was a lot of much faster. SpaceX, there was a lot of much faster. SpaceX, there was a lot of uncertainty last year. They started uncertainty last year. They started uncertainty last year. They started landing the Starships and launch costs landing the Starships and launch costs landing the Starships and launch costs are starting to tick down again. And so are starting to tick down again. And so are starting to tick down again. And so it gets easier and easier. And when they it gets easier and easier. And when they it gets easier and easier. And when they first put up their first capsule in first put up their first capsule in first put up their first capsule in space, this is the real question with a space, this is the real question with a space, this is the real question with a space company is like, how long will it space company is like, how long will it space company is like, how long will it take them to actually do something in take them to actually do something in take them to actually do something in space? It used to be 5, 10 years. Uh space? It used to be 5, 10 years. Uh space? It used to be 5, 10 years. Uh they got their first capsule up in just they got their first capsule up in just they got their first capsule up in just a few years. They're already on their a few years. They're already on their a few years. They're already on their fifth or sixth capsule. People fifth or sixth capsule. People fifth or sixth capsule. People >> they got it back. A lot of space >> they got it back. A lot of space >> they got it back. A lot of space companies put stuff up into space, but companies put stuff up into space, but companies put stuff up into space, but that's kind of the the end end of the that's kind of the the end end of the that's kind of the the end end of the story. And so I think our our kind of story. And so I think our our kind of story. And so I think our our kind of framework for VA is like if you get a framework for VA is like if you get a framework for VA is like if you get a group of ultra talented people together, group of ultra talented people together, group of ultra talented people together, ultra hardworking people together uh ultra hardworking people together uh ultra hardworking people together uh that can develop the capability of that can develop the capability of that can develop the capability of simply putting stuff up in space and simply putting stuff up in space and simply putting stuff up in space and bringing it back down, it's going to bringing it back down, it's going to bringing it back down, it's going to have a really wide range of applications have a really wide range of applications have a really wide range of applications over the long run. over the long run. over the long run. >> What's the founder like? Uh Will Brewie >> What's the founder like? Uh Will Brewie >> What's the founder like? Uh Will Brewie is like completely like super sharp by is like completely like super sharp by is like completely like super sharp by the book SpaceX engineer background who the book SpaceX engineer background who the book SpaceX engineer background who has been able to talk to big pharma CEOs has been able to talk to big pharma CEOs has been able to talk to big pharma CEOs and get them to sign up. And then and get them to sign up. And then and get them to sign up. And then Delian's, you know, Delian Delian's, you know, Delian Delian's, you know, Delian >> Delian who's like obviously quite a >> Delian who's like obviously quite a >> Delian who's like obviously quite a character, very very loud has uh but the character, very very loud has uh but the character, very very loud has uh but the company in general has been very like company in general has been very like company in general has been very like anti-hype. So there's a lot of companies anti-hype. So there's a lot of companies anti-hype. So there's a lot of companies in space that are just hype businesses. in space that are just hype businesses. in space that are just hype businesses. they will get all the way to the public they will get all the way to the public they will get all the way to the public markets with without having accomplished markets with without having accomplished markets with without having accomplished much if anything at all. Yeah. much if anything at all. Yeah. much if anything at all. Yeah. >> And uh Varta uh has been uh doesn't >> And uh Varta uh has been uh doesn't >> And uh Varta uh has been uh doesn't chase the hype. they weren't coming out chase the hype. they weren't coming out chase the hype. they weren't coming out this last year having like a new pitch this last year having like a new pitch this last year having like a new pitch around data centers just because that around data centers just because that around data centers just because that would have gotten them uh and so for would have gotten them uh and so for would have gotten them uh and so for being a space company they're extremely being a space company they're extremely being a space company they're extremely I would say grounded focused on I would say grounded focused on I would say grounded focused on developing uh capabilities that are developing uh capabilities that are developing uh capabilities that are going to be like John said uh very uh going to be like John said uh very uh going to be like John said uh very uh valuable in a wide variety of valuable in a wide variety of valuable in a wide variety of applications and applications and applications and >> there's like one I it's a very difficult >> there's like one I it's a very difficult >> there's like one I it's a very difficult space capital intensive there are not a space capital intensive there are not a space capital intensive there are not a lot of there are some there are a decent lot of there are some there are a decent lot of there are some there are a decent amount of companies that are sending amount of companies that are sending amount of companies that are sending stuff up to space. There are many fewer stuff up to space. There are many fewer stuff up to space. There are many fewer that are bringing stuff back down. Uh that are bringing stuff back down. Uh that are bringing stuff back down. Uh and it's uh and it hasn't been a huge uh and it's uh and it hasn't been a huge uh and it's uh and it hasn't been a huge uh hugely competitive space where there's hugely competitive space where there's hugely competitive space where there's like 10 players. like 10 players. like 10 players. >> We we had someone Sean on the pod I >> We we had someone Sean on the pod I >> We we had someone Sean on the pod I think like last year explain this think like last year explain this think like last year explain this company company company >> and they went through this huge thing >> and they went through this huge thing >> and they went through this huge thing about why it was cool and we were like about why it was cool and we were like about why it was cool and we were like >> why do pharmaceutical companies need to >> why do pharmaceutical companies need to >> why do pharmaceutical companies need to make drugs in space? Like why? Like we make drugs in space? Like why? Like we make drugs in space? Like why? Like we didn't like they forgot to explain. didn't like they forgot to explain. didn't like they forgot to explain. >> They didn't explain that part. They were >> They didn't explain that part. They were >> They didn't explain that part. They were like, "Oh, it's great because you can like, "Oh, it's great because you can like, "Oh, it's great because you can man like you know man like you know man like you know >> manufacturing like a thousand times more >> manufacturing like a thousand times more >> manufacturing like a thousand times more expensive than doing on Earth, but expensive than doing on Earth, but expensive than doing on Earth, but there's just specific chemicals like there's just specific chemicals like there's just specific chemicals like very rare things." very rare things." very rare things." >> Uh but but again, you have to view this >> Uh but but again, you have to view this >> Uh but but again, you have to view this as as you know multi-deade thing. If you as as you know multi-deade thing. If you as as you know multi-deade thing. If you believe in space, if you believe that, believe in space, if you believe that, believe in space, if you believe that, you know, launch costs are going to you know, launch costs are going to you know, launch costs are going to continue to fall, it's going to get continue to fall, it's going to get continue to fall, it's going to get cheaper and cheaper, then there's like cheaper and cheaper, then there's like cheaper and cheaper, then there's like this interesting trend that you're on this interesting trend that you're on this interesting trend that you're on the frontier of. And the company's been the frontier of. And the company's been the frontier of. And the company's been very good at weathering storms, whether very good at weathering storms, whether very good at weathering storms, whether there's like some slight, you know, there's like some slight, you know, there's like some slight, you know, selloff in the market or the narrative selloff in the market or the narrative selloff in the market or the narrative changes, like the the company's well changes, like the the company's well changes, like the the company's well managed. And so if you can just keep managed. And so if you can just keep managed. And so if you can just keep getting through those and just always be getting through those and just always be getting through those and just always be the best space, the the best company the best space, the the best company the best space, the the best company that like does stuff in space basically, that like does stuff in space basically, that like does stuff in space basically, like that's good. like that's good. like that's good. >> You know, I I I do like uh so I do like >> You know, I I I do like uh so I do like >> You know, I I I do like uh so I do like that you're riding the wave of basically that you're riding the wave of basically that you're riding the wave of basically like is Elon going to get better at like is Elon going to get better at like is Elon going to get better at doing rockets? Yep. And if he does, the doing rockets? Yep. And if he does, the doing rockets? Yep. And if he does, the cost per whatever cost per gram to take cost per whatever cost per gram to take cost per whatever cost per gram to take something up into space is gonna keep something up into space is gonna keep something up into space is gonna keep falling. You just keep you get to keep falling. You just keep you get to keep falling. You just keep you get to keep your business keeps getting better. Yep. your business keeps getting better. Yep. your business keeps getting better. Yep. The more hard work Elon does. I kind of The more hard work Elon does. I kind of The more hard work Elon does. I kind of like that in general as a as a thesis. like that in general as a as a thesis. like that in general as a as a thesis. >> So last year, Blue Origin landed their >> So last year, Blue Origin landed their >> So last year, Blue Origin landed their heavy rocket and so now there's actual heavy rocket and so now there's actual heavy rocket and so now there's actual there's actually two companies and so there's actually two companies and so there's actually two companies and so that means real pricing pressure which that means real pricing pressure which that means real pricing pressure which is like very very good. is like very very good. is like very very good. >> By the way, I was this is I have two two >> By the way, I was this is I have two two >> By the way, I was this is I have two two tangents. tangents. tangents. >> Yeah. I was reading the uh Elon >> Yeah. I was reading the uh Elon >> Yeah. I was reading the uh Elon biography, which I'm late to, but I kind biography, which I'm late to, but I kind biography, which I'm late to, but I kind of like it because you know, everybody's of like it because you know, everybody's of like it because you know, everybody's out on everybody's done with it and I'm out on everybody's done with it and I'm out on everybody's done with it and I'm the only guy, you know, still in there the only guy, you know, still in there the only guy, you know, still in there poking around. poking around. poking around. >> Um there's an amazing section. I don't >> Um there's an amazing section. I don't >> Um there's an amazing section. I don't know if you guys have read this, but know if you guys have read this, but know if you guys have read this, but it's about the tweets back and forth it's about the tweets back and forth it's about the tweets back and forth between Elon and Bezos. The the sort of between Elon and Bezos. The the sort of between Elon and Bezos. The the sort of rival the this passive aggressive rival the this passive aggressive rival the this passive aggressive rivalry around the launch thing, Sam, I rivalry around the launch thing, Sam, I rivalry around the launch thing, Sam, I don't know. Have you seen this? don't know. Have you seen this? don't know. Have you seen this? >> Well, there's no recent ones. Bezos just >> Well, there's no recent ones. Bezos just >> Well, there's no recent ones. Bezos just posted the tortoise. posted the tortoise. posted the tortoise. >> Said, "I'm the tortoise." He's going to >> Said, "I'm the tortoise." He's going to >> Said, "I'm the tortoise." He's going to mode. Slow and steady. mode. Slow and steady. mode. Slow and steady. >> Who's the passive aggressive one? both >> Who's the passive aggressive one? both >> Who's the passive aggressive one? both of them. So first, so Blue Origin was of them. So first, so Blue Origin was of them. So first, so Blue Origin was like the first to do a reusable launch, like the first to do a reusable launch, like the first to do a reusable launch, which they Elon wanted badly, right? But which they Elon wanted badly, right? But which they Elon wanted badly, right? But uh Blue Origin up, but he was basically uh Blue Origin up, but he was basically uh Blue Origin up, but he was basically like they didn't go up very high. So like they didn't go up very high. So like they didn't go up very high. So they and so he was just like he's like they and so he was just like he's like they and so he was just like he's like uh Bezos posts a picture be like, "Oh my uh Bezos posts a picture be like, "Oh my uh Bezos posts a picture be like, "Oh my god, we did it. I'm standing next to one god, we did it. I'm standing next to one god, we did it. I'm standing next to one of the the perhaps the rarest item on of the the perhaps the rarest item on of the the perhaps the rarest item on Earth, a reusable rocket or or a reused Earth, a reusable rocket or or a reused Earth, a reusable rocket or or a reused rocket. A reused rocket." He's saying rocket. A reused rocket." He's saying rocket. A reused rocket." He's saying basically that's so rare. You never see basically that's so rare. You never see basically that's so rare. You never see a reused rocket. And then Elon, a reused rocket. And then Elon, a reused rocket. And then Elon, congratulations, but perhaps not the congratulations, but perhaps not the congratulations, but perhaps not the rarest because SpaceX has done that six rarest because SpaceX has done that six rarest because SpaceX has done that six times if we're counting suborbital hops. times if we're counting suborbital hops. times if we're counting suborbital hops. And then it was just like kind of like And then it was just like kind of like And then it was just like kind of like your your rocket doesn't go high enough. your your rocket doesn't go high enough. your your rocket doesn't go high enough. And then when Elon did it like a month And then when Elon did it like a month And then when Elon did it like a month later, Basil's like, "Congratulations to later, Basil's like, "Congratulations to later, Basil's like, "Congratulations to Elon. A really excellent suborbital Elon. A really excellent suborbital Elon. A really excellent suborbital launch. One of the best suborbital launch. One of the best suborbital launch. One of the best suborbital launches." And Elon was like, "Fuck you, launches." And Elon was like, "Fuck you, launches." And Elon was like, "Fuck you, dude. It was so high, but technically, dude. It was so high, but technically, dude. It was so high, but technically, yes, was still suborbital." And they've yes, was still suborbital." And they've yes, was still suborbital." And they've been basically going back and forth with been basically going back and forth with been basically going back and forth with these like congratulations these like congratulations these like congratulations but and I just kind of love it. I love but and I just kind of love it. I love but and I just kind of love it. I love it. I love the pettiness. it. I love the pettiness. it. I love the pettiness. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> All right, let's move on to the next >> All right, let's move on to the next >> All right, let's move on to the next one. What do we got? one. What do we got? one. What do we got? >> Back to you, I think. >> Back to you, I think. >> Back to you, I think. >> Okay. Uh I'll do one. Okay. My next one >> Okay. Uh I'll do one. Okay. My next one >> Okay. Uh I'll do one. Okay. My next one is So, okay. I've talked about before. is So, okay. I've talked about before. is So, okay. I've talked about before. >> If you don't know, Sunno is basically a >> If you don't know, Sunno is basically a >> If you don't know, Sunno is basically a app or website you go to and you can app or website you go to and you can app or website you go to and you can make music even if you've got no musical make music even if you've got no musical make music even if you've got no musical talent, right? So, you can just go on talent, right? So, you can just go on talent, right? So, you can just go on there, describe the type of song you there, describe the type of song you there, describe the type of song you want. Maybe you bring your lyrics, maybe want. Maybe you bring your lyrics, maybe want. Maybe you bring your lyrics, maybe you don't. Maybe you just give it a you don't. Maybe you just give it a you don't. Maybe you just give it a vibe, and you basically are vibe coding vibe, and you basically are vibe coding vibe, and you basically are vibe coding music. music. music. >> It's amazing. I'm addicted to the app. I >> It's amazing. I'm addicted to the app. I >> It's amazing. I'm addicted to the app. I use it all the time. I've probably made, use it all the time. I've probably made, use it all the time. I've probably made, I don't know, I don't know, I don't know, >> 40 or 50 songs. I've burned tens of >> 40 or 50 songs. I've burned tens of >> 40 or 50 songs. I've burned tens of thousands of credits on this thing. thousands of credits on this thing. thousands of credits on this thing. Like, it's crazy how addictive it is, Like, it's crazy how addictive it is, Like, it's crazy how addictive it is, how fun it is to do. And I just think how fun it is to do. And I just think how fun it is to do. And I just think this company has a long way to run. So, this company has a long way to run. So, this company has a long way to run. So, right now, valued at two two and a half right now, valued at two two and a half right now, valued at two two and a half billion, something like that, billion, something like that, billion, something like that, >> they have 200 million in ARR. So, it's >> they have 200 million in ARR. So, it's >> they have 200 million in ARR. So, it's not like an AI app that's like not like an AI app that's like not like an AI app that's like >> 300 million in ARR now. >> 300 million in ARR now. >> 300 million in ARR now. >> 300 million. All right. Crazy. >> 300 million. All right. Crazy. >> 300 million. All right. Crazy. >> Well, breaking news. We got 300 million >> Well, breaking news. We got 300 million >> Well, breaking news. We got 300 million now already. And so, I met the founder. now already. And so, I met the founder. now already. And so, I met the founder. You know, I really like kind of what You know, I really like kind of what You know, I really like kind of what they're all about. And they they also they're all about. And they they also they're all about. And they they also just struck a deal with a licensing just struck a deal with a licensing just struck a deal with a licensing company with a musical music label, company with a musical music label, company with a musical music label, which is important. which is important. which is important. >> Basically, the the here's the upside cuz >> Basically, the the here's the upside cuz >> Basically, the the here's the upside cuz I was like, okay, this is already at two I was like, okay, this is already at two I was like, okay, this is already at two two and a half billion. Does this have two and a half billion. Does this have two and a half billion. Does this have that 5x potential? And I was doing some that 5x potential? And I was doing some that 5x potential? And I was doing some math and I basically SoundCloud has 40 math and I basically SoundCloud has 40 math and I basically SoundCloud has 40 million music creators. Okay, so that's million music creators. Okay, so that's million music creators. Okay, so that's 40 million people who around the world 40 million people who around the world 40 million people who around the world who actually have musical talent that who actually have musical talent that who actually have musical talent that are publishing uh on the platform. So are publishing uh on the platform. So are publishing uh on the platform. So only have 2 million uh users on their only have 2 million uh users on their only have 2 million uh users on their platform. So they still they and that's platform. So they still they and that's platform. So they still they and that's that's people who don't have to have the that's people who don't have to have the that's people who don't have to have the musical talent part, the skill. And so musical talent part, the skill. And so musical talent part, the skill. And so the the the market for number of people the the the market for number of people the the the market for number of people who will make music that don't know how who will make music that don't know how who will make music that don't know how to make music is going to be something to make music is going to be something to make music is going to be something like 10 20 possibly more than that, like 10 20 possibly more than that, like 10 20 possibly more than that, possibly 50x the number of actual possibly 50x the number of actual possibly 50x the number of actual musicians who create music. So I just musicians who create music. So I just musicians who create music. So I just think I think this thing has an think I think this thing has an think I think this thing has an incredible long way to run. I would not incredible long way to run. I would not incredible long way to run. I would not be surprised if there were hundreds of be surprised if there were hundreds of be surprised if there were hundreds of millions of weekly active users of millions of weekly active users of millions of weekly active users of people who are making music on this people who are making music on this people who are making music on this thing. And when you do the math of what thing. And when you do the math of what thing. And when you do the math of what that turns into, because people are that turns into, because people are that turns into, because people are willing to pay, right? Like imagine not willing to pay, right? Like imagine not willing to pay, right? Like imagine not having to like practice or do music having to like practice or do music having to like practice or do music lessons or any of that [ __ ] you just lessons or any of that [ __ ] you just lessons or any of that [ __ ] you just pay 15 bucks and boom, you're a pay 15 bucks and boom, you're a pay 15 bucks and boom, you're a musician, right? Like it's a kind of an musician, right? Like it's a kind of an musician, right? Like it's a kind of an amazing trade to make. So, I think this amazing trade to make. So, I think this amazing trade to make. So, I think this thing has a long way to run. I think thing has a long way to run. I think thing has a long way to run. I think Sununo becomes a $50 billion plus Sununo becomes a $50 billion plus Sununo becomes a $50 billion plus company. It would be also a really fun company. It would be also a really fun company. It would be also a really fun company to join if you joined right now company to join if you joined right now company to join if you joined right now because you'd be doing something that's because you'd be doing something that's because you'd be doing something that's both on the frontier, but it's not like both on the frontier, but it's not like both on the frontier, but it's not like manufacturing and space. It's not like manufacturing and space. It's not like manufacturing and space. It's not like actual like rocket science and you're actual like rocket science and you're actual like rocket science and you're just a part of culture. It's going to just a part of culture. It's going to just a part of culture. It's going to become a big part of culture, which is become a big part of culture, which is become a big part of culture, which is always fun if you're going to work. always fun if you're going to work. always fun if you're going to work. >> What do you guys think about these >> What do you guys think about these >> What do you guys think about these companies that are you we were laughing? companies that are you we were laughing? companies that are you we were laughing? I think we said they were launched 2 I think we said they were launched 2 I think we said they were launched 2 years ago and they're at 300 million in years ago and they're at 300 million in years ago and they're at 300 million in revenue. Does that have longevity? revenue. Does that have longevity? revenue. Does that have longevity? >> You have to ask a couple questions. One >> You have to ask a couple questions. One >> You have to ask a couple questions. One is is it a fad, right? Do I think this is is it a fad, right? Do I think this is is it a fad, right? Do I think this is just like is it like I don't know is just like is it like I don't know is just like is it like I don't know whatever dub smash or like you know one whatever dub smash or like you know one whatever dub smash or like you know one of these things where it's like of these things where it's like of these things where it's like everyone's going to try it once like the everyone's going to try it once like the everyone's going to try it once like the yearbook photo thing and then there's yearbook photo thing and then there's yearbook photo thing and then there's really no reason to come back in. I really no reason to come back in. I really no reason to come back in. I don't think this is a fat. I think don't think this is a fat. I think don't think this is a fat. I think people are going to want to keep people are going to want to keep people are going to want to keep creating stuff. The second thing is it's creating stuff. The second thing is it's creating stuff. The second thing is it's going to have too much competition going to have too much competition going to have too much competition >> and I do think that they're kind of on >> and I do think that they're kind of on >> and I do think that they're kind of on an island where all the big model an island where all the big model an island where all the big model companies are probably not going to. companies are probably not going to. companies are probably not going to. this isn't the kind of primary warfront this isn't the kind of primary warfront this isn't the kind of primary warfront and they have so many like bigger and they have so many like bigger and they have so many like bigger battles that they're fighting right now. battles that they're fighting right now. battles that they're fighting right now. I kind of think soon is going to go I kind of think soon is going to go I kind of think soon is going to go uncontested for a little while uh longer uncontested for a little while uh longer uncontested for a little while uh longer where it's not the main thing that where it's not the main thing that where it's not the main thing that OpenAI or Anthropic is going to try to OpenAI or Anthropic is going to try to OpenAI or Anthropic is going to try to roll out and make mainstream. And so I roll out and make mainstream. And so I roll out and make mainstream. And so I think by focusing and specializing you think by focusing and specializing you think by focusing and specializing you know they have a lot of other stuff know they have a lot of other stuff know they have a lot of other stuff built in like if you make the song they built in like if you make the song they built in like if you make the song they have like an editor where you get the have like an editor where you get the have like an editor where you get the stems and you can actually like remix stems and you can actually like remix stems and you can actually like remix the song and they have like a discovery the song and they have like a discovery the song and they have like a discovery platform like there's a lot more depth platform like there's a lot more depth platform like there's a lot more depth that they can go into. So I think that that they can go into. So I think that that they can go into. So I think that what why it would be around is because what why it would be around is because what why it would be around is because it's not in the crosshairs of all the it's not in the crosshairs of all the it's not in the crosshairs of all the you know the highest elo battle in the you know the highest elo battle in the you know the highest elo battle in the world the genius battle which is like world the genius battle which is like world the genius battle which is like you know what openi and you know grock you know what openi and you know grock you know what openi and you know grock and anthropic are all doing. and anthropic are all doing. and anthropic are all doing. >> What what are the bros >> What what are the bros >> What what are the bros >> yeah I think I think what what you're >> yeah I think I think what what you're >> yeah I think I think what what you're getting at is basically like sunno is getting at is basically like sunno is getting at is basically like sunno is the front door to AI music in the way the front door to AI music in the way the front door to AI music in the way that chat GPT has been the front door to that chat GPT has been the front door to that chat GPT has been the front door to large language models that has a lot of large language models that has a lot of large language models that has a lot of value. I made I made a pretty similar value. I made I made a pretty similar value. I made I made a pretty similar case to a friend who had worked in the case to a friend who had worked in the case to a friend who had worked in the music industry for the last decade. He's music industry for the last decade. He's music industry for the last decade. He's a he's a real musician, you know, has a he's a real musician, you know, has a he's a real musician, you know, has gone on tour all over the world. He had gone on tour all over the world. He had gone on tour all over the world. He had the opportunity to join Sunno at around the opportunity to join Sunno at around the opportunity to join Sunno at around the same valuation. And I said, you the same valuation. And I said, you the same valuation. And I said, you know, I think like you've worked in the know, I think like you've worked in the know, I think like you've worked in the music industry your whole career. music industry your whole career. music industry your whole career. Where's the growth going to be in the Where's the growth going to be in the Where's the growth going to be in the industry over the next 10 years? It's industry over the next 10 years? It's industry over the next 10 years? It's going to be in AI whether or not people going to be in AI whether or not people going to be in AI whether or not people uh like it. And I think what Zuno's uh like it. And I think what Zuno's uh like it. And I think what Zuno's tapped into is the same thing that the tapped into is the same thing that the tapped into is the same thing that the vibe coding tools have tapped into where vibe coding tools have tapped into where vibe coding tools have tapped into where billions of people have an idea for an billions of people have an idea for an billions of people have an idea for an app, but like very very few people app, but like very very few people app, but like very very few people relatively can actually build an app. relatively can actually build an app. relatively can actually build an app. And now with vibe coding, anybody can And now with vibe coding, anybody can And now with vibe coding, anybody can build an app. Same thing with music. build an app. Same thing with music. build an app. Same thing with music. Everybody's had an idea for a song or Everybody's had an idea for a song or Everybody's had an idea for a song or could come up with an idea for a song could come up with an idea for a song could come up with an idea for a song that would, you know, create uh even in that would, you know, create uh even in that would, you know, create uh even in in the most simple way, you know, in the most simple way, you know, in the most simple way, you know, creating. And we've heard stories from creating. And we've heard stories from creating. And we've heard stories from people that, you know, every single people that, you know, every single people that, you know, every single night they make a new bedtime song with night they make a new bedtime song with night they make a new bedtime song with their kids, right? To kind of like their kids, right? To kind of like their kids, right? To kind of like motivate the kids to to uh settle down motivate the kids to to uh settle down motivate the kids to to uh settle down or or go to sleep or whatever. And so or or go to sleep or whatever. And so or or go to sleep or whatever. And so there's so many magical moments. It's there's so many magical moments. It's there's so many magical moments. It's the kind of thing that can have these the kind of thing that can have these the kind of thing that can have these sort of viral moments where people like sort of viral moments where people like sort of viral moments where people like realize it's available, create all these realize it's available, create all these realize it's available, create all these songs, or there's like memes that could songs, or there's like memes that could songs, or there's like memes that could form, but it has this like kind of like form, but it has this like kind of like form, but it has this like kind of like I think uh I think people will continue I think uh I think people will continue I think uh I think people will continue to come back to it. So I'm I'm with you. to come back to it. So I'm I'm with you. to come back to it. So I'm I'm with you. What happens to uh Spotify's market cap? What happens to uh Spotify's market cap? What happens to uh Spotify's market cap? Then Then Then >> Spotify's market cap should be resistant >> Spotify's market cap should be resistant >> Spotify's market cap should be resistant to this because it's a tool for creating to this because it's a tool for creating to this because it's a tool for creating music and music will be distributed on music and music will be distributed on music and music will be distributed on Spotify. And so Spotify never created an Spotify. And so Spotify never created an Spotify. And so Spotify never created an Ableton competitor, Fruity Loops Ableton competitor, Fruity Loops Ableton competitor, Fruity Loops competitor. They never sold guitars. competitor. They never sold guitars. competitor. They never sold guitars. They never sold any tools to to create They never sold any tools to to create They never sold any tools to to create music. They might wind up launching some music. They might wind up launching some music. They might wind up launching some competitor, but I I competitor, but I I competitor, but I I >> Spotify is in kind of a tough spot if >> Spotify is in kind of a tough spot if >> Spotify is in kind of a tough spot if you think about it. if they what what you think about it. if they what what you think about it. if they what what what would what would all the biggest what would what would all the biggest what would what would all the biggest artists on on Spotify think of Spotify artists on on Spotify think of Spotify artists on on Spotify think of Spotify coming out with an AI tool that is coming out with an AI tool that is coming out with an AI tool that is competing for listening time with those competing for listening time with those competing for listening time with those artists? So, it's like it's they're kind artists? So, it's like it's they're kind artists? So, it's like it's they're kind of in a position where of in a position where of in a position where >> uh Spotify can't jump into this without >> uh Spotify can't jump into this without >> uh Spotify can't jump into this without infuriating a lot of the artists on the infuriating a lot of the artists on the infuriating a lot of the artists on the platform. So I I think it's possible platform. So I I think it's possible platform. So I I think it's possible that could eat into the listening time that could eat into the listening time that could eat into the listening time of Spotify, but it's hard to imagine a of Spotify, but it's hard to imagine a of Spotify, but it's hard to imagine a world where I subscribe to Sunno and I world where I subscribe to Sunno and I world where I subscribe to Sunno and I don't subscribe. don't subscribe. don't subscribe. >> I would just see it similar to Sora and >> I would just see it similar to Sora and >> I would just see it similar to Sora and Instagram Reels or V3 from Google and Instagram Reels or V3 from Google and Instagram Reels or V3 from Google and YouTube Shorts. Like people will be YouTube Shorts. Like people will be YouTube Shorts. Like people will be scrolling these feeds. They most people scrolling these feeds. They most people scrolling these feeds. They most people don't want any AI. Some people are okay don't want any AI. Some people are okay don't want any AI. Some people are okay with just like the best AI and so they with just like the best AI and so they with just like the best AI and so they want one out of a hundred reels to be want one out of a hundred reels to be want one out of a hundred reels to be actually great AI funny inspired and actually great AI funny inspired and actually great AI funny inspired and people on Spotify will want to listen to people on Spotify will want to listen to people on Spotify will want to listen to the hits and the songs that everyone the hits and the songs that everyone the hits and the songs that everyone knows and then they might want to listen knows and then they might want to listen knows and then they might want to listen to that one breakout AI generated song to that one breakout AI generated song to that one breakout AI generated song but it's just going to take one minute but it's just going to take one minute but it's just going to take one minute for whoever creates that banger on Sunno for whoever creates that banger on Sunno for whoever creates that banger on Sunno to export it upload it to Spotify and to export it upload it to Spotify and to export it upload it to Spotify and Spotify will be able to instantly Spotify will be able to instantly Spotify will be able to instantly monetize it so I wouldn't see it as like monetize it so I wouldn't see it as like monetize it so I wouldn't see it as like a major threat to Spotify. There's also a major threat to Spotify. There's also a major threat to Spotify. There's also some interesting like downside some interesting like downside some interesting like downside protection here that it just if you if protection here that it just if you if protection here that it just if you if you think about Sununo at two and a half you think about Sununo at two and a half you think about Sununo at two and a half billion who could possibly acquire them billion who could possibly acquire them billion who could possibly acquire them if they don't make it to escape velocity if they don't make it to escape velocity if they don't make it to escape velocity and like Spotify has the market cap but and like Spotify has the market cap but and like Spotify has the market cap but also Amazon could put in Amazon Echo. It also Amazon could put in Amazon Echo. It also Amazon could put in Amazon Echo. It could be an Apple thing. It could be a a could be an Apple thing. It could be a a could be an Apple thing. It could be a a Google thing. It could be an OpenAI Google thing. It could be an OpenAI Google thing. It could be an OpenAI thing. Like there's so many other thing. Like there's so many other thing. Like there's so many other companies that have the market cap and companies that have the market cap and companies that have the market cap and scale to just pick this up and make it a scale to just pick this up and make it a scale to just pick this up and make it a good outcome for good outcome for good outcome for >> the other the other thing is I know the >> the other the other thing is I know the >> the other the other thing is I know the industry like the traditional music industry like the traditional music industry like the traditional music industry is using but they don't want to industry is using but they don't want to industry is using but they don't want to talk about it cuz it's still talk about it cuz it's still talk about it cuz it's still controversial. controversial. controversial. >> I heard uh I heard from a friend that uh >> I heard uh I heard from a friend that uh >> I heard uh I heard from a friend that uh their friend was a backup vocalist for their friend was a backup vocalist for their friend was a backup vocalist for different artists. So like a studio uh different artists. So like a studio uh different artists. So like a studio uh vocalist, they their job would be to go vocalist, they their job would be to go vocalist, they their job would be to go into the somebody would write a song, into the somebody would write a song, into the somebody would write a song, their job would be to go into the studio their job would be to go into the studio their job would be to go into the studio and sing the song and then that that and sing the song and then that that and sing the song and then that that sample would be taken around to artists sample would be taken around to artists sample would be taken around to artists that would effectively like bid on it. that would effectively like bid on it. that would effectively like bid on it. And so the vocalist would like sing it And so the vocalist would like sing it And so the vocalist would like sing it in the style of one artist, sing it in in the style of one artist, sing it in in the style of one artist, sing it in the style of another artist to give the style of another artist to give the style of another artist to give people a feel for it. And they said that people a feel for it. And they said that people a feel for it. And they said that that person's revenue went from uh you that person's revenue went from uh you that person's revenue went from uh you know, humming along for the last you know, humming along for the last you know, humming along for the last you know 20 years and like effectively to know 20 years and like effectively to know 20 years and like effectively to zero. uh because you can now just zero. uh because you can now just zero. uh because you can now just generate any you take the lyrics, you generate any you take the lyrics, you generate any you take the lyrics, you generate it in the style of any artist. generate it in the style of any artist. generate it in the style of any artist. And so the challenge for for that And so the challenge for for that And so the challenge for for that individual in their career is nobody individual in their career is nobody individual in their career is nobody people that don't hire backup a backup people that don't hire backup a backup people that don't hire backup a backup like a a backup guitarist can go and like a a backup guitarist can go and like a a backup guitarist can go and tour with a band, right? Because people tour with a band, right? Because people tour with a band, right? Because people are there to see like the front man or are there to see like the front man or are there to see like the front man or whatever. But a backup vocalist, there's whatever. But a backup vocalist, there's whatever. But a backup vocalist, there's not really like touring demand because not really like touring demand because not really like touring demand because imagine you get a ticket to your imagine you get a ticket to your imagine you get a ticket to your favorite artist and then there's just favorite artist and then there's just favorite artist and then there's just like someone else singing. you're like like someone else singing. you're like like someone else singing. you're like not really getting getting your getting not really getting getting your getting not really getting getting your getting your money's worth. So certain like your money's worth. So certain like your money's worth. So certain like already disrupting uh certain corners of already disrupting uh certain corners of already disrupting uh certain corners of the internet and I think that part of the internet and I think that part of the internet and I think that part of what's holding Sunno back right now is what's holding Sunno back right now is what's holding Sunno back right now is just that the main artists will not talk just that the main artists will not talk just that the main artists will not talk about it because they know they're going about it because they know they're going about it because they know they're going to get blowback but that'll eventually to get blowback but that'll eventually to get blowback but that'll eventually >> works. Yeah. >> works. Yeah. >> works. Yeah. >> Interesting. >> Interesting. >> Interesting. >> All right, you guys want to do one next >> All right, you guys want to do one next >> All right, you guys want to do one next pick? pick? pick? >> Yeah, let's move on to Trummed because I >> Yeah, let's move on to Trummed because I >> Yeah, let's move on to Trummed because I think it's relates to hone health think it's relates to hone health think it's relates to hone health interestingly. Hey, we have a couple interestingly. Hey, we have a couple interestingly. Hey, we have a couple other hard tech stuff, but Trummed is a other hard tech stuff, but Trummed is a other hard tech stuff, but Trummed is a fintech company founded by Justin fintech company founded by Justin fintech company founded by Justin Mayers. I think we all know him. Mayers. I think we all know him. Mayers. I think we all know him. >> Former guest of the show. Uh, >> Former guest of the show. Uh, >> Former guest of the show. Uh, >> I think we all have a well, I don't want >> I think we all have a well, I don't want >> I think we all have a well, I don't want to speak for you guys, but he's in the to speak for you guys, but he's in the to speak for you guys, but he's in the man crush category. He's kind of man crush category. He's kind of man crush category. He's kind of >> Yeah, he's aing killer. Um, >> Yeah, he's aing killer. Um, >> Yeah, he's aing killer. Um, >> Chad. >> Chad. >> Chad. >> So, TrueMed adds a compliant pay with >> So, TrueMed adds a compliant pay with >> So, TrueMed adds a compliant pay with HSA, health savings account or FSA HSA, health savings account or FSA HSA, health savings account or FSA button to online checkouts by handling button to online checkouts by handling button to online checkouts by handling eligibility through embedded teleaalth. eligibility through embedded teleaalth. eligibility through embedded teleaalth. So, uh, when you go to whether it's So, uh, when you go to whether it's So, uh, when you go to whether it's peptides that are going to be popular or peptides that are going to be popular or peptides that are going to be popular or eight sleeps or supplements or whatever eight sleeps or supplements or whatever eight sleeps or supplements or whatever you're doing to improve your health, if you're doing to improve your health, if you're doing to improve your health, if you're going to do it online, there's an you're going to do it online, there's an you're going to do it online, there's an there's an economic advantage, a tax there's an economic advantage, a tax there's an economic advantage, a tax savings from paying for it with pre-tax savings from paying for it with pre-tax savings from paying for it with pre-tax dollars through your HSA or FSA. And so, dollars through your HSA or FSA. And so, dollars through your HSA or FSA. And so, Trummed is this like layer on all of Trummed is this like layer on all of Trummed is this like layer on all of that. So, you don't have as much like that. So, you don't have as much like that. So, you don't have as much like individual trend risk like, oh, is individual trend risk like, oh, is individual trend risk like, oh, is protein more popular than creatine? this protein more popular than creatine? this protein more popular than creatine? this this month or this year. Like as long as this month or this year. Like as long as this month or this year. Like as long as health continues to be a trend, you're health continues to be a trend, you're health continues to be a trend, you're sort of like the rise and sort of like the rise and sort of like the rise and >> this is like buying like investing in an >> this is like buying like investing in an >> this is like buying like investing in an index fund for wellness, right? Like index fund for wellness, right? Like index fund for wellness, right? Like they're going to be taking a cut of a they're going to be taking a cut of a they're going to be taking a cut of a huge amount of the volume going towards huge amount of the volume going towards huge amount of the volume going towards wellness products in the US. We uh I wellness products in the US. We uh I wellness products in the US. We uh I started a company called Aurora with my started a company called Aurora with my started a company called Aurora with my friends Brian and Charlie and and we're friends Brian and Charlie and and we're friends Brian and Charlie and and we're we're a happy True Med customer. True we're a happy True Med customer. True we're a happy True Med customer. True Med has a very meaningful take rate, a Med has a very meaningful take rate, a Med has a very meaningful take rate, a bigger take rate than a traditional kind bigger take rate than a traditional kind bigger take rate than a traditional kind of payment provider. Uh, but it's a of payment provider. Uh, but it's a of payment provider. Uh, but it's a great trade because you're able to uh great trade because you're able to uh great trade because you're able to uh sell incremental product because people sell incremental product because people sell incremental product because people are able to buy it in a tax advantage are able to buy it in a tax advantage are able to buy it in a tax advantage way. And I'm just like an incredibly um way. And I'm just like an incredibly um way. And I'm just like an incredibly um firm believer in the entire mission firm believer in the entire mission firm believer in the entire mission >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> of the company. I think that we know we >> of the company. I think that we know we >> of the company. I think that we know we know that know that know that >> running uh is going to increase your >> running uh is going to increase your >> running uh is going to increase your health span, increase your lifespan. you health span, increase your lifespan. you health span, increase your lifespan. you should be able to let people purchase should be able to let people purchase should be able to let people purchase products like this products like this products like this >> uh as a form of as a form of uh >> uh as a form of as a form of uh >> uh as a form of as a form of uh preventative treatment. So preventative treatment. So preventative treatment. So >> uh incredible founder like very very >> uh incredible founder like very very >> uh incredible founder like very very strong tailwinds and uh great experience strong tailwinds and uh great experience strong tailwinds and uh great experience as a as a customer. as a as a customer. as a as a customer. >> What's your company Jory? >> What's your company Jory? >> What's your company Jory? >> Rurora r o r a.com the water >> Rurora r o r a.com the water >> Rurora r o r a.com the water >> water filter. So Humeman, Andrew >> water filter. So Humeman, Andrew >> water filter. So Humeman, Andrew Hubman's, uh kind of uh been an early Hubman's, uh kind of uh been an early Hubman's, uh kind of uh been an early partner there, which is which is partner there, which is which is partner there, which is which is awesome. And that that was awesome. And that that was awesome. And that that was >> you helped start that. >> you helped start that. >> you helped start that. >> Yeah. So I I stumbled into >> Yeah. So I I stumbled into >> Yeah. So I I stumbled into uh kind of the kind of water crisis uh kind of the kind of water crisis uh kind of the kind of water crisis years ago at this point and started years ago at this point and started years ago at this point and started looking at uh started looking at all the looking at uh started looking at all the looking at uh started looking at all the solutions in the category and and kind solutions in the category and and kind solutions in the category and and kind of ultimately felt like there needed to of ultimately felt like there needed to of ultimately felt like there needed to be kind of like a Dyson type uh brand in be kind of like a Dyson type uh brand in be kind of like a Dyson type uh brand in the category. a brand that was like the category. a brand that was like the category. a brand that was like incredibly focused on uh R&D and making incredibly focused on uh R&D and making incredibly focused on uh R&D and making products in a variety of of different um products in a variety of of different um products in a variety of of different um form factors because you're constantly form factors because you're constantly form factors because you're constantly interacting with water in your interacting with water in your interacting with water in your day-to-day life whether it's in your day-to-day life whether it's in your day-to-day life whether it's in your shower, bath, drinking water, whole home shower, bath, drinking water, whole home shower, bath, drinking water, whole home filters, etc. And um yeah, the market is filters, etc. And um yeah, the market is filters, etc. And um yeah, the market is uh was was uh quite exciting and it was uh was was uh quite exciting and it was uh was was uh quite exciting and it was like something I was personally like something I was personally like something I was personally motivated by because I my um motivated by because I my um motivated by because I my um >> my son had kept getting eczema. I had >> my son had kept getting eczema. I had >> my son had kept getting eczema. I had like a six-month-old getting eczema and like a six-month-old getting eczema and like a six-month-old getting eczema and I was like trying to track down I was like trying to track down I was like trying to track down >> uh where like how why it was happening >> uh where like how why it was happening >> uh where like how why it was happening and it ultimately was like tap water and it ultimately was like tap water and it ultimately was like tap water baths baths baths >> that we clocked and so like able solving >> that we clocked and so like able solving >> that we clocked and so like able solving that and then realizing there was an that and then realizing there was an that and then realizing there was an opportunity and and partnered with uh opportunity and and partnered with uh opportunity and and partnered with uh Charlie and and Brian to bring it to Charlie and and Brian to bring it to Charlie and and Brian to bring it to life and they've absolutely crushed it. life and they've absolutely crushed it. life and they've absolutely crushed it. >> Are you sort of joy the um you know I' I >> Are you sort of joy the um you know I' I >> Are you sort of joy the um you know I' I follow you online. I've I've followed follow you online. I've I've followed follow you online. I've I've followed your work for years before I think even your work for years before I think even your work for years before I think even party round. Um, are you the design of party round. Um, are you the design of party round. Um, are you the design of the two? Are the design guy of the two? the two? Are the design guy of the two? the two? Are the design guy of the two? Cuz you seem like you've you've had an Cuz you seem like you've you've had an Cuz you seem like you've you've had an eye for aesthetics like for a while. eye for aesthetics like for a while. eye for aesthetics like for a while. >> Yeah, I would I would I would generally >> Yeah, I would I would I would generally >> Yeah, I would I would I would generally say so. I mean, John John has great say so. I mean, John John has great say so. I mean, John John has great taste and and instinct around this taste and and instinct around this taste and and instinct around this stuff, but I've uh I've just loved like stuff, but I've uh I've just loved like stuff, but I've uh I've just loved like advertising, marketing, product design. advertising, marketing, product design. advertising, marketing, product design. I've been uh obsessed with it since I I've been uh obsessed with it since I I've been uh obsessed with it since I was since I was a boy, basically. I was was since I was a boy, basically. I was was since I was a boy, basically. I was super into like uh skateboarding and super into like uh skateboarding and super into like uh skateboarding and surfing and snowboarding growing up. And surfing and snowboarding growing up. And surfing and snowboarding growing up. And so I I I had this sort of like I I was so I I I had this sort of like I I was so I I I had this sort of like I I was trying to figure out from a very young trying to figure out from a very young trying to figure out from a very young age like why there was like a snowboard age like why there was like a snowboard age like why there was like a snowboard available for $100, but I really wanted available for $100, but I really wanted available for $100, but I really wanted the one that was $800. And so kind of the one that was $800. And so kind of the one that was $800. And so kind of working backwards from that and working backwards from that and working backwards from that and understanding um design and and uh and understanding um design and and uh and understanding um design and and uh and brand and advertising and all these brand and advertising and all these brand and advertising and all these things. And so bring that I mean that's things. And so bring that I mean that's things. And so bring that I mean that's uh the success of TBPN is due in part to uh the success of TBPN is due in part to uh the success of TBPN is due in part to our obsession with with brand which is I our obsession with with brand which is I our obsession with with brand which is I think something that um podcast think something that um podcast think something that um podcast historically would think about. Okay historically would think about. Okay historically would think about. Okay let's design our cover art. let's design our cover art. let's design our cover art. >> That was the first thing Sean told me >> That was the first thing Sean told me >> That was the first thing Sean told me when we launched Technology Brothers the when we launched Technology Brothers the when we launched Technology Brothers the original podcast. I was like you you original podcast. I was like you you original podcast. I was like you you sent me a really nice message. You were sent me a really nice message. You were sent me a really nice message. You were like I think this is going to work. I like I think this is going to work. I like I think this is going to work. I think this is the thing. You got to go think this is the thing. You got to go think this is the thing. You got to go full-time on this. Do it. Do it. And I full-time on this. Do it. Do it. And I full-time on this. Do it. Do it. And I was like yeah like it seems like the was like yeah like it seems like the was like yeah like it seems like the numbers are pretty good. I was being numbers are pretty good. I was being numbers are pretty good. I was being very wonky and you were like, "No, no, very wonky and you were like, "No, no, very wonky and you were like, "No, no, no." Like this is a brand that like like no." Like this is a brand that like like no." Like this is a brand that like like you've actually broken through and you've actually broken through and you've actually broken through and created something that feels it has created something that feels it has created something that feels it has feeling around it like brand. I was feeling around it like brand. I was feeling around it like brand. I was like, "Yeah, that's like a lot. That's like, "Yeah, that's like a lot. That's like, "Yeah, that's like a lot. That's almost all Jordy." Um I helped as much almost all Jordy." Um I helped as much almost all Jordy." Um I helped as much as I could with it, but just the idea to as I could with it, but just the idea to as I could with it, but just the idea to actually create this world and this actually create this world and this actually create this world and this brand we had a lot of fun with. brand we had a lot of fun with. brand we had a lot of fun with. >> Yeah. And the funny the thing that's >> Yeah. And the funny the thing that's >> Yeah. And the funny the thing that's addicting about media is you're doing addicting about media is you're doing addicting about media is you're doing like basically product development, but like basically product development, but like basically product development, but the feedback loops are so rapid. With the feedback loops are so rapid. With the feedback loops are so rapid. With Aurora, it's like we have this idea to Aurora, it's like we have this idea to Aurora, it's like we have this idea to build a water filter company, but then build a water filter company, but then build a water filter company, but then the R&D process was like 18 months or the R&D process was like 18 months or the R&D process was like 18 months or something between like idea to actually something between like idea to actually something between like idea to actually shipping a product. And then with media, shipping a product. And then with media, shipping a product. And then with media, it's like idea to product like in like it's like idea to product like in like it's like idea to product like in like these really rapid, you know, hourlong these really rapid, you know, hourlong these really rapid, you know, hourlong 24-hour cycles. 24-hour cycles. 24-hour cycles. >> And that's like something that I think >> And that's like something that I think >> And that's like something that I think we love cuz we'll be sitting here uh, we love cuz we'll be sitting here uh, we love cuz we'll be sitting here uh, you know, we'll be sitting there on a you know, we'll be sitting there on a you know, we'll be sitting there on a Friday, uh, and be like, "Okay, Friday, uh, and be like, "Okay, Friday, uh, and be like, "Okay, >> we should have a stock ticker on the >> we should have a stock ticker on the >> we should have a stock ticker on the bottom." Boom. Monday the same day. So, bottom." Boom. Monday the same day. So, bottom." Boom. Monday the same day. So, >> are you guys disciplined with sticking >> are you guys disciplined with sticking >> are you guys disciplined with sticking within your brand parameters or within your brand parameters or within your brand parameters or sometimes like because because that can sometimes like because because that can sometimes like because because that can be hard and require it does require be hard and require it does require be hard and require it does require >> discipline. >> discipline. >> discipline. >> No, I think I think I think it's got to >> No, I think I think I think it's got to >> No, I think I think I think it's got to constantly be it's got to constantly be constantly be it's got to constantly be constantly be it's got to constantly be evolving. And I mean, look look back to evolving. And I mean, look look back to evolving. And I mean, look look back to like the the skate and surf and like the the skate and surf and like the the skate and surf and snowboard brands. Like any brand that snowboard brands. Like any brand that snowboard brands. Like any brand that was just like stuck in their way and was just like stuck in their way and was just like stuck in their way and didn't kind of expand and evolve and and didn't kind of expand and evolve and and didn't kind of expand and evolve and and reflect culture like ultimately just reflect culture like ultimately just reflect culture like ultimately just didn't make it, right? These are brands didn't make it, right? These are brands didn't make it, right? These are brands that now you could go back and buy and that now you could go back and buy and that now you could go back and buy and like bring back into the modern era. like bring back into the modern era. like bring back into the modern era. >> Uh but yeah, it has to be flexible. I >> Uh but yeah, it has to be flexible. I >> Uh but yeah, it has to be flexible. I mean the transition from being called mean the transition from being called mean the transition from being called Technology Brothers to TBPN was like a Technology Brothers to TBPN was like a Technology Brothers to TBPN was like a big moment for us. A lot of people would big moment for us. A lot of people would big moment for us. A lot of people would have said like Technology Brothers is a have said like Technology Brothers is a have said like Technology Brothers is a great brand. We had already kind of like great brand. We had already kind of like great brand. We had already kind of like saturated uh X at the time. So um we saturated uh X at the time. So um we saturated uh X at the time. So um we were small but but people knew about us were small but but people knew about us were small but but people knew about us and so we we knew that that was going to and so we we knew that that was going to and so we we knew that that was going to be necessary to evolve into becoming the be necessary to evolve into becoming the be necessary to evolve into becoming the kind of media company that that we kind of media company that that we kind of media company that that we wanted to be. But yeah, I think you need wanted to be. But yeah, I think you need wanted to be. But yeah, I think you need a commitment to evolving. And I think a commitment to evolving. And I think a commitment to evolving. And I think the internet the internet allows you the internet the internet allows you the internet the internet allows you uh a lot of a lot of like the ideas that uh a lot of a lot of like the ideas that uh a lot of a lot of like the ideas that people have had around like brand and people have had around like brand and people have had around like brand and advertising were created in a world advertising were created in a world advertising were created in a world where you're doing like long-term where you're doing like long-term where you're doing like long-term planning around like print and planning around like print and planning around like print and television marketing and cataloges and television marketing and cataloges and television marketing and cataloges and things like that. And now with the things like that. And now with the things like that. And now with the internet, you can just like iterate on internet, you can just like iterate on internet, you can just like iterate on on ideas so rapidly and evolve your on ideas so rapidly and evolve your on ideas so rapidly and evolve your brand so rapidly and it's like a few brand so rapidly and it's like a few brand so rapidly and it's like a few clicks to like fully update yourself. clicks to like fully update yourself. clicks to like fully update yourself. And so I think the the only consistent And so I think the the only consistent And so I think the the only consistent thing for our company is like the thing for our company is like the thing for our company is like the feeling that we're trying to create kind feeling that we're trying to create kind feeling that we're trying to create kind of like what what we want people to feel of like what what we want people to feel of like what what we want people to feel when interacting with the brand. And I when interacting with the brand. And I when interacting with the brand. And I think that that has to that has to stay think that that has to that has to stay think that that has to that has to stay consistent because like that is that is consistent because like that is that is consistent because like that is that is the brand. It's not necessarily like the brand. It's not necessarily like the brand. It's not necessarily like whatever whatever logo um whatever your whatever whatever logo um whatever your whatever whatever logo um whatever your logo is at at any one given point. logo is at at any one given point. logo is at at any one given point. >> Dude, that's great. You guys are >> Dude, that's great. You guys are >> Dude, that's great. You guys are >> Can we get back to the list? >> Can we get back to the list? >> Can we get back to the list? >> Let's do it. >> Let's do it. >> Let's do it. >> But Sam Sam, last thing I say, my first >> But Sam Sam, last thing I say, my first >> But Sam Sam, last thing I say, my first my first ever company was was a my first ever company was was a my first ever company was was a skateboard company and this was like skateboard company and this was like skateboard company and this was like this was like the pivotal moment for me this was like the pivotal moment for me this was like the pivotal moment for me at 12 years old. I real I found somebody at 12 years old. I real I found somebody at 12 years old. I real I found somebody in the Midwest that would manufacture in the Midwest that would manufacture in the Midwest that would manufacture skateboard decks for me. So that was skateboard decks for me. So that was skateboard decks for me. So that was like that wasn't my first million, but like that wasn't my first million, but like that wasn't my first million, but that was my first $100 make my first that was my first $100 make my first that was my first $100 make my first time making $100 from building a time making $100 from building a time making $100 from building a product. Uh and uh that was such an product. Uh and uh that was such an product. Uh and uh that was such an insane moment. I was like, you'll make insane moment. I was like, you'll make insane moment. I was like, you'll make this and then I get to put my logo on it this and then I get to put my logo on it this and then I get to put my logo on it and sell it. Like this is the most and sell it. Like this is the most and sell it. Like this is the most amazing thing ever. And so that was like amazing thing ever. And so that was like amazing thing ever. And so that was like my first experience building any type of my first experience building any type of my first experience building any type of brand uh was was Jman Designs. I still I brand uh was was Jman Designs. I still I brand uh was was Jman Designs. I still I still have I still have uh I still have still have I still have uh I still have still have I still have uh I still have a board in my home office. And uh I a board in my home office. And uh I a board in my home office. And uh I think that once once I realized like hey think that once once I realized like hey think that once once I realized like hey you can just that was my moment of like you can just that was my moment of like you can just that was my moment of like you can just make things like everything you can just make things like everything you can just make things like everything you see in the world is a is a business. you see in the world is a is a business. you see in the world is a is a business. Uh and uh there's no reason that you Uh and uh there's no reason that you Uh and uh there's no reason that you can't build it yourself. can't build it yourself. can't build it yourself. >> We have to shred the nar sometimes. I >> We have to shred the nar sometimes. I >> We have to shred the nar sometimes. I still skate. Um still skate. Um still skate. Um >> yeah I've seen you are incredible at >> yeah I've seen you are incredible at >> yeah I've seen you are incredible at skating those videos. I realized I skating those videos. I realized I skating those videos. I realized I realized by like a teenager I was like realized by like a teenager I was like realized by like a teenager I was like this is a hobby that that destroys your this is a hobby that that destroys your this is a hobby that that destroys your body. So I switched to surfing. body. So I switched to surfing. body. So I switched to surfing. >> I can't believe you can still do that. >> I can't believe you can still do that. >> I can't believe you can still do that. It's so every time I see that video, It's so every time I see that video, It's so every time I see that video, it's like insane. Anyway, it's like insane. Anyway, it's like insane. Anyway, >> yeah, I I I still like to get after it. >> yeah, I I I still like to get after it. >> yeah, I I I still like to get after it. I want to be a 40-year-old man doing I want to be a 40-year-old man doing I want to be a 40-year-old man doing handrails still. Um handrails still. Um handrails still. Um >> it's crazy. >> it's crazy. >> it's crazy. >> All right. All right. Should I do mine? >> All right. All right. Should I do mine? >> All right. All right. Should I do mine? You guys are going to make fun of me. My You guys are going to make fun of me. My You guys are going to make fun of me. My my next one is my next one is my next one is >> self-promot. >> self-promot. >> self-promot. No, this is amazing. No, this is amazing. No, this is amazing. >> Is this Oh, I'm so into it. >> Is this Oh, I'm so into it. >> Is this Oh, I'm so into it. >> Oh my god. Listen guys, here's the deal. >> Oh my god. Listen guys, here's the deal. >> Oh my god. Listen guys, here's the deal. >> I thought I thought you might do this. I >> I thought I thought you might do this. I >> I thought I thought you might do this. I was going to make fun of you, be like, was going to make fun of you, be like, was going to make fun of you, be like, >> but it just makes sense. Okay, so I >> but it just makes sense. Okay, so I >> but it just makes sense. Okay, so I picked HubSpot, but the reality is is picked HubSpot, but the reality is is picked HubSpot, but the reality is is there's probably 30 or 50 or 100 there's probably 30 or 50 or 100 there's probably 30 or 50 or 100 companies that could go in this uh case companies that could go in this uh case companies that could go in this uh case here. The SAS apocalypse, was that what here. The SAS apocalypse, was that what here. The SAS apocalypse, was that what we're calling it? we're calling it? we're calling it? >> Yep. >> Yep. >> Yep. >> Insane. Insane to me. Um, so HubSpot, I >> Insane. Insane to me. Um, so HubSpot, I >> Insane. Insane to me. Um, so HubSpot, I think they peaked around $900, $850 a think they peaked around $900, $850 a think they peaked around $900, $850 a share. Went down, I think the low share. Went down, I think the low share. Went down, I think the low recently was 200 bucks. I think that is recently was 200 bucks. I think that is recently was 200 bucks. I think that is insane. HubSpot, and again, sub this out insane. HubSpot, and again, sub this out insane. HubSpot, and again, sub this out with so many different companies, it's with so many different companies, it's with so many different companies, it's probably the same story. HubSpot does $3 probably the same story. HubSpot does $3 probably the same story. HubSpot does $3 billion in revenue with a 14 billion billion in revenue with a 14 billion billion in revenue with a 14 billion market cap. Okay, I think that is market cap. Okay, I think that is market cap. Okay, I think that is insane. They're projecting to do 3.7 insane. They're projecting to do 3.7 insane. They're projecting to do 3.7 billion in 26. So, you're buying a a billion in 26. So, you're buying a a billion in 26. So, you're buying a a subscription software company that I subscription software company that I subscription software company that I don't think people are going to tear out don't think people are going to tear out don't think people are going to tear out of their of their business at something of their of their business at something of their of their business at something like 3x revenue. Like everyone talks like 3x revenue. Like everyone talks like 3x revenue. Like everyone talks about um like all the nerds on Twitter, about um like all the nerds on Twitter, about um like all the nerds on Twitter, which I'm one of them, are talking about which I'm one of them, are talking about which I'm one of them, are talking about like uh B building their own CRM. Maybe like uh B building their own CRM. Maybe like uh B building their own CRM. Maybe maybe the nerds are doing that. A maybe the nerds are doing that. A maybe the nerds are doing that. A roofing company with 20 employees in roofing company with 20 employees in roofing company with 20 employees in Tennessee, they ain't going to be doing Tennessee, they ain't going to be doing Tennessee, they ain't going to be doing it anytime soon. And so I do think that it anytime soon. And so I do think that it anytime soon. And so I do think that there's a lot of um I think this is there's a lot of um I think this is there's a lot of um I think this is overblown with them plus however many overblown with them plus however many overblown with them plus however many companies. I think I saw Monday.com, I companies. I think I saw Monday.com, I companies. I think I saw Monday.com, I think it was. Yeah. uh they're I think think it was. Yeah. uh they're I think think it was. Yeah. uh they're I think they do a billion in revenue at a $2 they do a billion in revenue at a $2 they do a billion in revenue at a $2 billion market cap, something like that. billion market cap, something like that. billion market cap, something like that. I forget exactly. And I think that's I forget exactly. And I think that's I forget exactly. And I think that's insane. The bare case with some of these insane. The bare case with some of these insane. The bare case with some of these SAS companies is I do think the seat SAS companies is I do think the seat SAS companies is I do think the seat model is a little bit insane because model is a little bit insane because model is a little bit insane because like do you guys remember just the other like do you guys remember just the other like do you guys remember just the other day that Substack article went live day that Substack article went live day that Substack article went live where it was basically a guy telling a where it was basically a guy telling a where it was basically a guy telling a story about how like AI is going to be story about how like AI is going to be story about how like AI is going to be so good that people aren't going to work so good that people aren't going to work so good that people aren't going to work and if they aren't going to work they're and if they aren't going to work they're and if they aren't going to work they're not going to buy stuff. And so it does not going to buy stuff. And so it does not going to buy stuff. And so it does kind of like beg the question if like kind of like beg the question if like kind of like beg the question if like software companies do pay per seat if software companies do pay per seat if software companies do pay per seat if you have less employees. Square just you have less employees. Square just you have less employees. Square just laid off however many people, 40% of laid off however many people, 40% of laid off however many people, 40% of their staff or whatever. Like do they their staff or whatever. Like do they their staff or whatever. Like do they need to continue buying software at the need to continue buying software at the need to continue buying software at the same rate that they were because of the same rate that they were because of the same rate that they were because of the seat model. That's like the bare case. seat model. That's like the bare case. seat model. That's like the bare case. But I just think the SAS apocalypse But I just think the SAS apocalypse But I just think the SAS apocalypse totally overblown totally overblown totally overblown >> overreaction. >> overreaction. >> overreaction. >> Uh yeah, I mean one one going back to >> Uh yeah, I mean one one going back to >> Uh yeah, I mean one one going back to this Sarah's list concept, the amazing this Sarah's list concept, the amazing this Sarah's list concept, the amazing thing about HubSpot equity is that it is thing about HubSpot equity is that it is thing about HubSpot equity is that it is uh liquid, right? And so and so you you uh liquid, right? And so and so you you uh liquid, right? And so and so you you uh it's it's very real. There's a lot of uh it's it's very real. There's a lot of uh it's it's very real. There's a lot of companies in our in our industry where companies in our in our industry where companies in our in our industry where you might get a massive grant, but you you might get a massive grant, but you you might get a massive grant, but you have no you're you're fully locked up. have no you're you're fully locked up. have no you're you're fully locked up. >> And I think I think to the tune of like >> And I think I think to the tune of like >> And I think I think to the tune of like can you get the three four 5x well if can you get the three four 5x well if can you get the three four 5x well if the narrative flips and people are like the narrative flips and people are like the narrative flips and people are like wait actually like HubSpot has some real wait actually like HubSpot has some real wait actually like HubSpot has some real significant moat and that thing that we significant moat and that thing that we significant moat and that thing that we thought was going to kill them isn't thought was going to kill them isn't thought was going to kill them isn't going to kill them. Well, it just pops going to kill them. Well, it just pops going to kill them. Well, it just pops right back up. And so that's sort of the right back up. And so that's sort of the right back up. And so that's sort of the option value I see. I would actually say option value I see. I would actually say option value I see. I would actually say more pressure from like like maybe more pressure from like like maybe more pressure from like like maybe startups that are that are not doing the startups that are that are not doing the startups that are that are not doing the seatbased model. They're doing more seatbased model. They're doing more seatbased model. They're doing more outcome based model, but a lot of those outcome based model, but a lot of those outcome based model, but a lot of those companies are just getting started and companies are just getting started and companies are just getting started and it's going to be years until there's it's going to be years until there's it's going to be years until there's ever like some real disruptive pressure. ever like some real disruptive pressure. ever like some real disruptive pressure. So So So >> yeah, my general framework is that it's >> yeah, my general framework is that it's >> yeah, my general framework is that it's going to even like HubSpot will need to going to even like HubSpot will need to going to even like HubSpot will need to evolve in a way that it hasn't since evolve in a way that it hasn't since evolve in a way that it hasn't since inception just naturally. And so inception just naturally. And so inception just naturally. And so >> need great leadership. I don't believe >> need great leadership. I don't believe >> need great leadership. I don't believe that SAS is going away, but it's going that SAS is going away, but it's going that SAS is going away, but it's going to require great leadership to help to require great leadership to help to require great leadership to help evolve and help the company like evolve and help the company like evolve and help the company like actually build a lot of momentum in this actually build a lot of momentum in this actually build a lot of momentum in this new era. So, I'm I'm with you. I don't new era. So, I'm I'm with you. I don't new era. So, I'm I'm with you. I don't think the local roofing company is going think the local roofing company is going think the local roofing company is going to, you know, just be vibe code and kind to, you know, just be vibe code and kind to, you know, just be vibe code and kind of maintain their own software stack, of maintain their own software stack, of maintain their own software stack, but but but >> leadership is going to have to like >> leadership is going to have to like >> leadership is going to have to like actually it's going from like, hey, we actually it's going from like, hey, we actually it's going from like, hey, we can just compound at this rate annually can just compound at this rate annually can just compound at this rate annually forever and like this is just easy easy forever and like this is just easy easy forever and like this is just easy easy mode SAS that we saw. If they're in a mode SAS that we saw. If they're in a mode SAS that we saw. If they're in a bake off with a company that has some bake off with a company that has some bake off with a company that has some really crazy agentic features and really crazy agentic features and really crazy agentic features and basically the CRM's cleaning itself up basically the CRM's cleaning itself up basically the CRM's cleaning itself up and adding stuff and lead scoring even and adding stuff and lead scoring even and adding stuff and lead scoring even better, then they're going to need to better, then they're going to need to better, then they're going to need to invest a lot more. But in general, very invest a lot more. But in general, very invest a lot more. But in general, very very strong position to be in system of very strong position to be in system of very strong position to be in system of record. record. record. >> What say you, Sean? You don't It doesn't >> What say you, Sean? You don't It doesn't >> What say you, Sean? You don't It doesn't even have to be HubSpot. It could be even have to be HubSpot. It could be even have to be HubSpot. It could be any, it could be the dozens of any, it could be the dozens of any, it could be the dozens of companies. companies. companies. >> I've been looking at this. I mean, I've >> I've been looking at this. I mean, I've >> I've been looking at this. I mean, I've I've been looking at it actually just as I've been looking at it actually just as I've been looking at it actually just as an investor to say like, okay, an investor to say like, okay, an investor to say like, okay, definitely seems like a overreaction. Um definitely seems like a overreaction. Um definitely seems like a overreaction. Um >> you know you know Monish Paray came on >> you know you know Monish Paray came on >> you know you know Monish Paray came on the podcast and he said a great thing the podcast and he said a great thing the podcast and he said a great thing which is that risk and uncertainty are which is that risk and uncertainty are which is that risk and uncertainty are two different words and most investors two different words and most investors two different words and most investors uh don't understand that uh don't understand that uh don't understand that >> and he was explaining how the stock >> and he was explaining how the stock >> and he was explaining how the stock market responds to uncertainty market responds to uncertainty market responds to uncertainty more than it does to risk and so if it more than it does to risk and so if it more than it does to risk and so if it if and which is what's happening right if and which is what's happening right if and which is what's happening right now there's just uncertainty and now there's just uncertainty and now there's just uncertainty and uncertainty is very different than uncertainty is very different than uncertainty is very different than saying um something bad is actually saying um something bad is actually saying um something bad is actually going to happen. It's just that we don't going to happen. It's just that we don't going to happen. It's just that we don't know what the future cash flows look know what the future cash flows look know what the future cash flows look like. we don't know what the future like. we don't know what the future like. we don't know what the future growth rates look like. So, you get this growth rates look like. So, you get this growth rates look like. So, you get this discount just for uncertainty. And uh so discount just for uncertainty. And uh so discount just for uncertainty. And uh so I've been looking at all these SAS I've been looking at all these SAS I've been looking at all these SAS stocks and I've been trying to decide stocks and I've been trying to decide stocks and I've been trying to decide like okay Figma and you have Salesforce like okay Figma and you have Salesforce like okay Figma and you have Salesforce and you have HubSpot you have like all and you have HubSpot you have like all and you have HubSpot you have like all of these on sale and I'm like do I want of these on sale and I'm like do I want of these on sale and I'm like do I want to stock up while these are all on sale? to stock up while these are all on sale? to stock up while these are all on sale? I think these are pretty good companies I think these are pretty good companies I think these are pretty good companies here but they have they do have some here but they have they do have some here but they have they do have some level of uncertainty. So, I've I've level of uncertainty. So, I've I've level of uncertainty. So, I've I've definitely been looking at this like I definitely been looking at this like I definitely been looking at this like I was joking, you know, groaning at your was joking, you know, groaning at your was joking, you know, groaning at your pick, but I actually think it's it's a pick, but I actually think it's it's a pick, but I actually think it's it's a pretty good pick, especially because the pretty good pick, especially because the pretty good pick, especially because the way John said it, like you're going to way John said it, like you're going to way John said it, like you're going to be liquid the whole time if you Sarah's be liquid the whole time if you Sarah's be liquid the whole time if you Sarah's list this company. You're going to be list this company. You're going to be list this company. You're going to be working at like a well company with 20 working at like a well company with 20 working at like a well company with 20 years of success under its belt, you years of success under its belt, you years of success under its belt, you know, systems and all this good stuff know, systems and all this good stuff know, systems and all this good stuff and then it's like at this all-time low and then it's like at this all-time low and then it's like at this all-time low basically for for where it's at. basically for for where it's at. basically for for where it's at. >> The one thing you have to be aware of is >> The one thing you have to be aware of is >> The one thing you have to be aware of is like AI there's not going to be some like AI there's not going to be some like AI there's not going to be some announcement by the labs that's like, announcement by the labs that's like, announcement by the labs that's like, "Hey guys, AI is actually reversed in "Hey guys, AI is actually reversed in "Hey guys, AI is actually reversed in progress and it's getting way worse. we progress and it's getting way worse. we progress and it's getting way worse. we think is going to be much worse in in think is going to be much worse in in think is going to be much worse in in the future and then the stock's going to the future and then the stock's going to the future and then the stock's going to rock it up. It's like a the AI is only rock it up. It's like a the AI is only rock it up. It's like a the AI is only going to get more capable. There's going going to get more capable. There's going going to get more capable. There's going to be new capabilities unlocked and so to be new capabilities unlocked and so to be new capabilities unlocked and so you have to be making this thesis with you have to be making this thesis with you have to be making this thesis with that in mind. And I think there's a way that in mind. And I think there's a way that in mind. And I think there's a way to do it which is that HubSpot serves an to do it which is that HubSpot serves an to do it which is that HubSpot serves an incredible amount of small businesses. incredible amount of small businesses. incredible amount of small businesses. They're in a great position to actually They're in a great position to actually They're in a great position to actually deliver the value of AI to all those deliver the value of AI to all those deliver the value of AI to all those people. But that's what I'm saying. It's people. But that's what I'm saying. It's people. But that's what I'm saying. It's like it's it's all going to come down to like it's it's all going to come down to like it's it's all going to come down to management and their ability to not just management and their ability to not just management and their ability to not just build a story around AI as a tailwind build a story around AI as a tailwind build a story around AI as a tailwind for the business, but actually show that for the business, but actually show that for the business, but actually show that like we are delivering the power of AI like we are delivering the power of AI like we are delivering the power of AI to our customer base and they are giving to our customer base and they are giving to our customer base and they are giving us more money every single month than us more money every single month than us more money every single month than they were the last month. they were the last month. they were the last month. >> In your bull case, Sam, I think you >> In your bull case, Sam, I think you >> In your bull case, Sam, I think you wrote AI features still suck, which is a wrote AI features still suck, which is a wrote AI features still suck, which is a funny bull case, but it's true. I think funny bull case, but it's true. I think funny bull case, but it's true. I think there's been a few companies like this there's been a few companies like this there's been a few companies like this like Intercom, Zenesk, where they added like Intercom, Zenesk, where they added like Intercom, Zenesk, where they added AI to their existing thing and they're AI to their existing thing and they're AI to their existing thing and they're like, "Oh yeah, our I think Zenesk was like, "Oh yeah, our I think Zenesk was like, "Oh yeah, our I think Zenesk was at 200 million or something in ARR off at 200 million or something in ARR off at 200 million or something in ARR off of their AI feature. Intercom is over of their AI feature. Intercom is over of their AI feature. Intercom is over 100 million on their AI. Intercom's been 100 million on their AI. Intercom's been 100 million on their AI. Intercom's been around forever with customer support." around forever with customer support." around forever with customer support." And you would think, "Oh, they're going And you would think, "Oh, they're going And you would think, "Oh, they're going to get disrupted by AI." to get disrupted by AI." to get disrupted by AI." >> And they're like, "Well, actually, the >> And they're like, "Well, actually, the >> And they're like, "Well, actually, the harder part is getting all these harder part is getting all these harder part is getting all these customer relationships. It's actually customer relationships. It's actually customer relationships. It's actually much easier to integrate an AI feature much easier to integrate an AI feature much easier to integrate an AI feature than it is to go get 100,000 small than it is to go get 100,000 small than it is to go get 100,000 small businesses to trust you and use you and businesses to trust you and use you and businesses to trust you and use you and integrate you." Yep. And um so the integrate you." Yep. And um so the integrate you." Yep. And um so the question is like can they do that? If question is like can they do that? If question is like can they do that? If they do that then the narrative is not they do that then the narrative is not they do that then the narrative is not just like oh they're not they're not just like oh they're not they're not just like oh they're not they're not getting disrupted but actually oh my god getting disrupted but actually oh my god getting disrupted but actually oh my god look at all this extra growth they're look at all this extra growth they're look at all this extra growth they're getting because they have these getting because they have these getting because they have these features. features. features. >> The thesis that I have been buying into >> The thesis that I have been buying into >> The thesis that I have been buying into for the past two or three years since AI for the past two or three years since AI for the past two or three years since AI got really popular was there are going got really popular was there are going got really popular was there are going to be a lot of new entrance but the vast to be a lot of new entrance but the vast to be a lot of new entrance but the vast majority I think Jordy or one of you majority I think Jordy or one of you majority I think Jordy or one of you guys made this joke but it's not a joke. guys made this joke but it's not a joke. guys made this joke but it's not a joke. The vast majority of value creation is The vast majority of value creation is The vast majority of value creation is going to be by big companies just going to be by big companies just going to be by big companies just getting bigger. I just think that it's getting bigger. I just think that it's getting bigger. I just think that it's it's it's much easier for a Salesforce it's it's much easier for a Salesforce it's it's much easier for a Salesforce to get more efficient and launch new to get more efficient and launch new to get more efficient and launch new features than it is a new company or at features than it is a new company or at features than it is a new company or at least picking those new companies very least picking those new companies very least picking those new companies very hard. But like picking a company that hard. But like picking a company that hard. But like picking a company that works already and it's going to get just works already and it's going to get just works already and it's going to get just a little bit better, it just it makes so a little bit better, it just it makes so a little bit better, it just it makes so much more money, much more money, much more money, >> right? >> right? >> right? >> Love it. >> Love it. >> Love it. >> All right, let's move to the next pick. >> All right, let's move to the next pick. >> All right, let's move to the next pick. Uh let's get one from the TPPN guys. Uh let's get one from the TPPN guys. Uh let's get one from the TPPN guys. What do we got? What do we got? What do we got? >> We should do semi analysis. This is an >> We should do semi analysis. This is an >> We should do semi analysis. This is an interesting one. interesting one. interesting one. >> So semi analysis looks like a substack. >> So semi analysis looks like a substack. >> So semi analysis looks like a substack. Like if you go to the website, it might Like if you go to the website, it might Like if you go to the website, it might even be hosted on Substack. They have a even be hosted on Substack. They have a even be hosted on Substack. They have a website. Uh they break down website. Uh they break down website. Uh they break down semiconductor and AI infrastructure semiconductor and AI infrastructure semiconductor and AI infrastructure buildouts. They have a model for how buildouts. They have a model for how buildouts. They have a model for how data centers are progressing, how much data centers are progressing, how much data centers are progressing, how much it costs to inference different AI it costs to inference different AI it costs to inference different AI models, how the different chips are models, how the different chips are models, how the different chips are doing. They'll do a review of the latest doing. They'll do a review of the latest doing. They'll do a review of the latest Google TPU. They'll they'll explain to Google TPU. They'll they'll explain to Google TPU. They'll they'll explain to you how the latest Nvidia chip works. you how the latest Nvidia chip works. you how the latest Nvidia chip works. They're doing it's a great business They're doing it's a great business They're doing it's a great business because uh not only do you have Wire because uh not only do you have Wire because uh not only do you have Wire cutter. It's like a Is this like a It's cutter. It's like a Is this like a It's cutter. It's like a Is this like a It's like a publication like a publication like a publication >> almost. But but wire cutter for the >> almost. But but wire cutter for the >> almost. But but wire cutter for the richest people in the world because they richest people in the world because they richest people in the world because they run trillion dollar companies run trillion dollar companies run trillion dollar companies institutions. institutions. institutions. >> Institutions. So hedge funds, banks, >> Institutions. So hedge funds, banks, >> Institutions. So hedge funds, banks, also the actual hyperscalers themselves. also the actual hyperscalers themselves. also the actual hyperscalers themselves. So if you're AMD, you want to know what So if you're AMD, you want to know what So if you're AMD, you want to know what Nvidia is doing. If you're Nvidia, you Nvidia is doing. If you're Nvidia, you Nvidia is doing. If you're Nvidia, you want to know what AMD is doing. And semi want to know what AMD is doing. And semi want to know what AMD is doing. And semi analysis is going to talk to everyone, analysis is going to talk to everyone, analysis is going to talk to everyone, do a ton of research, put together a do a ton of research, put together a do a ton of research, put together a whole bunch of data into a cleanly whole bunch of data into a cleanly whole bunch of data into a cleanly organized spreadsheet that you can organized spreadsheet that you can organized spreadsheet that you can import into your valuation model for import into your valuation model for import into your valuation model for whether or not Microsoft is going to whether or not Microsoft is going to whether or not Microsoft is going to beat earnings. And so they sell those beat earnings. And so they sell those beat earnings. And so they sell those models. models. models. >> It's a publication or it's a hustle, >> It's a publication or it's a hustle, >> It's a publication or it's a hustle, dude. It's like your company, right? dude. It's like your company, right? dude. It's like your company, right? It's a public It's a public It's a public you can subscribe. You can subscribe to you can subscribe. You can subscribe to you can subscribe. You can subscribe to like like like subscribe like as a newsletter. could subscribe like as a newsletter. could subscribe like as a newsletter. could also buy models that are pre-built like also buy models that are pre-built like also buy models that are pre-built like Excel models with data in them and those Excel models with data in them and those Excel models with data in them and those are very expensive are very expensive are very expensive >> and then >> and then >> and then >> so yes >> so yes >> so yes >> Sam have you seen this guy Dylan Patel >> Sam have you seen this guy Dylan Patel >> Sam have you seen this guy Dylan Patel >> no this is great though >> no this is great though >> no this is great though >> never met an Indian guy named Dylan but >> never met an Indian guy named Dylan but >> never met an Indian guy named Dylan but love it love it so he he is when he goes love it love it so he he is when he goes love it love it so he he is when he goes on podcast this guy is so knowledgeable on podcast this guy is so knowledgeable on podcast this guy is so knowledgeable yeah yeah yeah >> about what's going on with GPUs >> about what's going on with GPUs >> about what's going on with GPUs >> I don't know if you ever seen the the >> I don't know if you ever seen the the >> I don't know if you ever seen the the Louis C bit where he talks about like Louis C bit where he talks about like Louis C bit where he talks about like how he likes to somehow sometimes use how he likes to somehow sometimes use how he likes to somehow sometimes use the nword but in a positive way. And he the nword but in a positive way. And he the nword but in a positive way. And he talks about like if he goes to a coffee talks about like if he goes to a coffee talks about like if he goes to a coffee shop and orders a coffee and the guy shop and orders a coffee and the guy shop and orders a coffee and the guy just like fully like foams it and froths just like fully like foams it and froths just like fully like foams it and froths it like makes it perfect. He'll be like it like makes it perfect. He'll be like it like makes it perfect. He'll be like that nword made the [ __ ] out of my that nword made the [ __ ] out of my that nword made the [ __ ] out of my coffee. It's like that's how I feel coffee. It's like that's how I feel coffee. It's like that's how I feel watching Dip Patel talk about GPUs and watching Dip Patel talk about GPUs and watching Dip Patel talk about GPUs and infrastructure. He'll be talking about infrastructure. He'll be talking about infrastructure. He'll be talking about the new Colossus thing and he knows the the new Colossus thing and he knows the the new Colossus thing and he knows the megawatts under the the flops and the megawatts under the the flops and the megawatts under the the flops and the what cables they're using and he knows what cables they're using and he knows what cables they're using and he knows everything. He's like, "We got everything. He's like, "We got everything. He's like, "We got satellites watching the parking lots and satellites watching the parking lots and satellites watching the parking lots and we we figured out this is how bad we we figured out this is how bad we we figured out this is how bad they're scaling." they're scaling." they're scaling." >> This guy knows he knows so much. It's >> This guy knows he knows so much. It's >> This guy knows he knows so much. It's incredible that how much this one person incredible that how much this one person incredible that how much this one person is know is knowledgeable about GPUs. is know is knowledgeable about GPUs. is know is knowledgeable about GPUs. >> And is he writing all of this? It looks >> And is he writing all of this? It looks >> And is he writing all of this? It looks like an AI blog. like an AI blog. like an AI blog. >> So it's uh so so they use AI imagery, >> So it's uh so so they use AI imagery, >> So it's uh so so they use AI imagery, but all the all the text is is written but all the all the text is is written but all the all the text is is written by their staff of analysts. So they have by their staff of analysts. So they have by their staff of analysts. So they have about 50 people working there. And on a about 50 people working there. And on a about 50 people working there. And on a particular deep dive, they might have particular deep dive, they might have particular deep dive, they might have five to six authors attached. Dylan five to six authors attached. Dylan five to six authors attached. Dylan might write something. Other folks might might write something. Other folks might might write something. Other folks might write something. Doug Olaflin's also write something. Doug Olaflin's also write something. Doug Olaflin's also over there. And over there. And over there. And >> how much money are they making? You guys >> how much money are they making? You guys >> how much money are they making? You guys have Is this like a $5 million company? have Is this like a $5 million company? have Is this like a $5 million company? 50, 500? Like what's going on with this? 50, 500? Like what's going on with this? 50, 500? Like what's going on with this? >> I would put in tens of millions. >> I would put in tens of millions. >> I would put in tens of millions. >> I would put in tens of millions. But >> I would put in tens of millions. But >> I would put in tens of millions. But this is the interesting like bull case this is the interesting like bull case this is the interesting like bull case is that right now they have like a very is that right now they have like a very is that right now they have like a very respected respected respected analysis group, but they're also analysis group, but they're also analysis group, but they're also launching a fund allegedly according to launching a fund allegedly according to launching a fund allegedly according to the information to invest in both the information to invest in both the information to invest in both semiconductor stocks and startups. and semiconductor stocks and startups. and semiconductor stocks and startups. and they're already doing angel investing. they're already doing angel investing. they're already doing angel investing. And then also they're going to do credit And then also they're going to do credit And then also they're going to do credit ratings. And so the real model to think ratings. And so the real model to think ratings. And so the real model to think about this, the comp is Moody's. So if about this, the comp is Moody's. So if about this, the comp is Moody's. So if you're familiar with Moody's, they do you're familiar with Moody's, they do you're familiar with Moody's, they do credit ratings. And Moody's got started credit ratings. And Moody's got started credit ratings. And Moody's got started during the railroad buildout because the during the railroad buildout because the during the railroad buildout because the the the railroad buildout was so the the railroad buildout was so the the railroad buildout was so capitaly capital intensive that there capitaly capital intensive that there capitaly capital intensive that there was a huge there was a huge secondary was a huge there was a huge secondary was a huge there was a huge secondary market for like, okay, is this person market for like, okay, is this person market for like, okay, is this person that's going to build this railroad from that's going to build this railroad from that's going to build this railroad from from Chicago to Atlanta, like are they from Chicago to Atlanta, like are they from Chicago to Atlanta, like are they good for it? Do they have the money? And good for it? Do they have the money? And good for it? Do they have the money? And so Moody's is now an 80 billion dollar so Moody's is now an 80 billion dollar so Moody's is now an 80 billion dollar business and I and if you look at the business and I and if you look at the business and I and if you look at the stock like it Moody's has not moved stock like it Moody's has not moved stock like it Moody's has not moved during the selloff like it's doing fine during the selloff like it's doing fine during the selloff like it's doing fine and yes this is very indexed to to the and yes this is very indexed to to the and yes this is very indexed to to the AI boom but the the actual business can AI boom but the the actual business can AI boom but the the actual business can be very very stable very high margin and be very very stable very high margin and be very very stable very high margin and very big like much bigger than people very big like much bigger than people very big like much bigger than people think when they think of just like think when they think of just like think when they think of just like publishing analysis. publishing analysis. publishing analysis. >> This one's this is the best one. This is >> This one's this is the best one. This is >> This one's this is the best one. This is the best find. This is super cool. the best find. This is super cool. the best find. This is super cool. >> Yeah. one of our one of our teammates, >> Yeah. one of our one of our teammates, >> Yeah. one of our one of our teammates, his brother just got a job here and John his brother just got a job here and John his brother just got a job here and John and I were so excited for him. and I were so excited for him. and I were so excited for him. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Cuz if you want to if you're if you're >> Cuz if you want to if you're if you're >> Cuz if you want to if you're if you're excited about uh if you're excited about excited about uh if you're excited about excited about uh if you're excited about AI and you're not AI and you're not AI and you're not >> like a researcher or a product designer >> like a researcher or a product designer >> like a researcher or a product designer or a product manager or a founder, but or a product manager or a founder, but or a product manager or a founder, but you want to be at the center you want to be at the center you want to be at the center >> of the action and actually understand >> of the action and actually understand >> of the action and actually understand what's happening. This is a fantastic what's happening. This is a fantastic what's happening. This is a fantastic >> It's a super interesting job with a lot >> It's a super interesting job with a lot >> It's a super interesting job with a lot of upside. of upside. of upside. >> Are they uh do they have offices? It >> Are they uh do they have offices? It >> Are they uh do they have offices? It looks like the founder lives in SF. Is looks like the founder lives in SF. Is looks like the founder lives in SF. Is it like an in real life? Uh they have a it like an in real life? Uh they have a it like an in real life? Uh they have a west coast and east coast. west coast and east coast. west coast and east coast. >> Yeah. But it's a lot of it's a lot of >> Yeah. But it's a lot of it's a lot of >> Yeah. But it's a lot of it's a lot of time with like hedge funds and banks and time with like hedge funds and banks and time with like hedge funds and banks and managers and uh and also Dylan Patel is managers and uh and also Dylan Patel is managers and uh and also Dylan Patel is is very young. I believe he's in his is very young. I believe he's in his is very young. I believe he's in his 20s. And so I I like your your your your 20s. And so I I like your your your your 20s. And so I I like your your your your description of his, you know, description of his, you know, description of his, you know, encyclopedic knowledge of the encyclopedic knowledge of the encyclopedic knowledge of the semiconductor industry is correct. And I semiconductor industry is correct. And I semiconductor industry is correct. And I think if you just look at what that think if you just look at what that think if you just look at what that compounds like over two decades, I think compounds like over two decades, I think compounds like over two decades, I think you're going to you're you're already you're going to you're you're already you're going to you're you're already seeing one of the most important voices seeing one of the most important voices seeing one of the most important voices in the most important industry, but it in the most important industry, but it in the most important industry, but it just compounds. just compounds. just compounds. >> Have you guys ever read this book called >> Have you guys ever read this book called >> Have you guys ever read this book called How to Get Rich? How to Get Rich? How to Get Rich? >> It's by an author called uh Felix >> It's by an author called uh Felix >> It's by an author called uh Felix Dennis. Felix Dennis, you guys, right? Dennis. Felix Dennis, you guys, right? Dennis. Felix Dennis, you guys, right? >> The magazine guy. You should Google >> The magazine guy. You should Google >> The magazine guy. You should Google Felix Dennis. So Felix Dennis, he was Felix Dennis. So Felix Dennis, he was Felix Dennis. So Felix Dennis, he was like he was like a combination of like he was like a combination of like he was like a combination of Richard Branson and McJagger. He was Richard Branson and McJagger. He was Richard Branson and McJagger. He was kind of vulgar, but he had this like kind of vulgar, but he had this like kind of vulgar, but he had this like British aristocrat vibe. He was very British aristocrat vibe. He was very British aristocrat vibe. He was very funny. He was very funny. He died from funny. He was very funny. He died from funny. He was very funny. He died from cancer and he used to joke that he he he cancer and he used to joke that he he he cancer and he used to joke that he he he was he was a crackhead. Like he was was he was a crackhead. Like he was was he was a crackhead. Like he was literally a cocaine and crack addict and literally a cocaine and crack addict and literally a cocaine and crack addict and he spent a lot of his money doing it and he spent a lot of his money doing it and he spent a lot of his money doing it and he wrote about it. He was but he's like he wrote about it. He was but he's like he wrote about it. He was but he's like funny. He wrote about it. Anyway, he got funny. He wrote about it. Anyway, he got funny. He wrote about it. Anyway, he got rich because he created this thing rich because he created this thing rich because he created this thing called Dennis Publications. And Dennis called Dennis Publications. And Dennis called Dennis Publications. And Dennis Publications was a computer magazine Publications was a computer magazine Publications was a computer magazine started in the late 70s, early 80s and started in the late 70s, early 80s and started in the late 70s, early 80s and it made him a fortune. when he passed it made him a fortune. when he passed it made him a fortune. when he passed away he was probably worth eight or $900 away he was probably worth eight or $900 away he was probably worth eight or $900 million and this is like in '08 2008 um million and this is like in '08 2008 um million and this is like in '08 2008 um so very very wealthy and there's like so very very wealthy and there's like so very very wealthy and there's like been like 10 different guys there's this been like 10 different guys there's this been like 10 different guys there's this guy named Pat McGovern who was a guy named Pat McGovern who was a guy named Pat McGovern who was a multi-billionaire because of computer multi-billionaire because of computer multi-billionaire because of computer magazines in the 1990s there's Ze Davis magazines in the 1990s there's Ze Davis magazines in the 1990s there's Ze Davis if you guys heard of that Bill Ze um if you guys heard of that Bill Ze um if you guys heard of that Bill Ze um there's been so many of these and what there's been so many of these and what there's been so many of these and what you are explaining right now by what you are explaining right now by what you are explaining right now by what Dylan Patella does it's this exact same Dylan Patella does it's this exact same Dylan Patella does it's this exact same B2B publication in a technology boom B2B publication in a technology boom B2B publication in a technology boom owning a very small niche and just owning a very small niche and just owning a very small niche and just kicking ass and doing the same playbook kicking ass and doing the same playbook kicking ass and doing the same playbook of research media events and it has of research media events and it has of research media events and it has created many billionaires. created many billionaires. created many billionaires. >> Yeah. One one way to look at uh semi >> Yeah. One one way to look at uh semi >> Yeah. One one way to look at uh semi analysis is like what they're doing to analysis is like what they're doing to analysis is like what they're doing to like sellside research firms which is like sellside research firms which is like sellside research firms which is like hey wait like you're a substack you like hey wait like you're a substack you like hey wait like you're a substack you can't do you can't do like advanced can't do you can't do like advanced can't do you can't do like advanced research on semis you know or you can't research on semis you know or you can't research on semis you know or you can't like compete with us. you guys. like compete with us. you guys. like compete with us. you guys. >> Oh, yeah. You like it doesn't have the >> Oh, yeah. You like it doesn't have the >> Oh, yeah. You like it doesn't have the aesthetics of like a Goldman Sachs aesthetics of like a Goldman Sachs aesthetics of like a Goldman Sachs equity or Morgan Stanley report, but the equity or Morgan Stanley report, but the equity or Morgan Stanley report, but the data is just as good, if not better. data is just as good, if not better. data is just as good, if not better. >> And and and with TBPN, it's like wait, >> And and and with TBPN, it's like wait, >> And and and with TBPN, it's like wait, you guys aren't you don't you don't have you guys aren't you don't you don't have you guys aren't you don't you don't have a cable network like like you guys can't a cable network like like you guys can't a cable network like like you guys can't interview this person on the day that interview this person on the day that interview this person on the day that they're IPOing. And it's like you can they're IPOing. And it's like you can they're IPOing. And it's like you can just just just >> you can just do things. >> you can just do things. >> you can just do things. >> This is the it's the same thing we've as >> This is the it's the same thing we've as >> This is the it's the same thing we've as someone I'm a a little bit of a media someone I'm a a little bit of a media someone I'm a a little bit of a media historian nerd. It's the same story over historian nerd. It's the same story over historian nerd. It's the same story over and over and over again. And this is a and over and over again. And this is a and over and over again. And this is a great find. Sean, you want to bring us great find. Sean, you want to bring us great find. Sean, you want to bring us home? What do you got? home? What do you got? home? What do you got? >> All right, I got one for you guys. Um, >> All right, I got one for you guys. Um, >> All right, I got one for you guys. Um, this is a name a lot of people know, but this is a name a lot of people know, but this is a name a lot of people know, but I hadn't really put too much thought I hadn't really put too much thought I hadn't really put too much thought into it. So, Harvey Harvey is basically into it. So, Harvey Harvey is basically into it. So, Harvey Harvey is basically very simple. It's a AI lawyer. Um, it's very simple. It's a AI lawyer. Um, it's very simple. It's a AI lawyer. Um, it's AI software for law firms more AI software for law firms more AI software for law firms more specifically. specifically. specifically. >> And I think right now they they've just >> And I think right now they they've just >> And I think right now they they've just been I mean they're raising rounds. So been I mean they're raising rounds. So been I mean they're raising rounds. So like you know if I did this episode 6 like you know if I did this episode 6 like you know if I did this episode 6 months ago it would have been like oh months ago it would have been like oh months ago it would have been like oh they're a whatever $2 billion company, they're a whatever $2 billion company, they're a whatever $2 billion company, five billion. Now they're an $8 billion five billion. Now they're an $8 billion five billion. Now they're an $8 billion company. So, I might getting I might be company. So, I might getting I might be company. So, I might getting I might be getting priced out here as it's as it getting priced out here as it's as it getting priced out here as it's as it goes, but I do love the space. So, goes, but I do love the space. So, goes, but I do love the space. So, they're about 200 million in revenue off they're about 200 million in revenue off they're about 200 million in revenue off of just like a thousand customers. I of just like a thousand customers. I of just like a thousand customers. I think like half of the like top 100 law think like half of the like top 100 law think like half of the like top 100 law firms in America are using them in some firms in America are using them in some firms in America are using them in some some capacity. And um I was just kind of some capacity. And um I was just kind of some capacity. And um I was just kind of again I like to do kind of bottoms up again I like to do kind of bottoms up again I like to do kind of bottoms up math to to make make my own case for math to to make make my own case for math to to make make my own case for these things. So, I think in the US these things. So, I think in the US these things. So, I think in the US there's about half a million law firms. there's about half a million law firms. there's about half a million law firms. That's just in the US. And right now That's just in the US. And right now That's just in the US. And right now Harvey's average contract value is like Harvey's average contract value is like Harvey's average contract value is like 190,000 which means they're basically 190,000 which means they're basically 190,000 which means they're basically getting paid like they're a lawyer who getting paid like they're a lawyer who getting paid like they're a lawyer who works at the firm. works at the firm. works at the firm. >> And um and so you know I don't I don't >> And um and so you know I don't I don't >> And um and so you know I don't I don't think that will be be there for you know think that will be be there for you know think that will be be there for you know smaller law firms. I think there will be smaller law firms. I think there will be smaller law firms. I think there will be you know obviously be a lower price you know obviously be a lower price you know obviously be a lower price point but just in general a uh uh legal point but just in general a uh uh legal point but just in general a uh uh legal work is very like a perfect candidate work is very like a perfect candidate work is very like a perfect candidate for AI work right because it's mostly for AI work right because it's mostly for AI work right because it's mostly text documents. It's mostly writing and text documents. It's mostly writing and text documents. It's mostly writing and reading and summarizing. And then reading and summarizing. And then reading and summarizing. And then there's all these like really bespoke there's all these like really bespoke there's all these like really bespoke workflows that a law firm needs. There's workflows that a law firm needs. There's workflows that a law firm needs. There's compliance, there's security, there's compliance, there's security, there's compliance, there's security, there's validation, there's all these like validation, there's all these like validation, there's all these like things that you got to build that's like things that you got to build that's like things that you got to build that's like for a law firm versus like would a for a law firm versus like would a for a law firm versus like would a lawyer rather just upload into chat GPT? lawyer rather just upload into chat GPT? lawyer rather just upload into chat GPT? I don't think so. I think there's I don't think so. I think there's I don't think so. I think there's actually going to be like purposebuilt actually going to be like purposebuilt actually going to be like purposebuilt tools for for law firms. So Harvey's tools for for law firms. So Harvey's tools for for law firms. So Harvey's one, Lorra is another. They're both one, Lorra is another. They're both one, Lorra is another. They're both companies in the same exact space kind companies in the same exact space kind companies in the same exact space kind of competing for this. And um I think of competing for this. And um I think of competing for this. And um I think the cool part about this is that if you the cool part about this is that if you the cool part about this is that if you can add leverage into the legal system, can add leverage into the legal system, can add leverage into the legal system, you uh you know that that'll kind of you uh you know that that'll kind of you uh you know that that'll kind of transform the economics of how these law transform the economics of how these law transform the economics of how these law firms work, law firms work, right? firms work, law firms work, right? firms work, law firms work, right? Because they currently they bill there's Because they currently they bill there's Because they currently they bill there's billable hours, you put more bodies, billable hours, you put more bodies, billable hours, you put more bodies, there sort of this incentive to spend there sort of this incentive to spend there sort of this incentive to spend more time on something. I think that's more time on something. I think that's more time on something. I think that's going to change. I think uh you know going to change. I think uh you know going to change. I think uh you know more and more law firms are going to use more and more law firms are going to use more and more law firms are going to use this and realize like we don't need to this and realize like we don't need to this and realize like we don't need to have as many people to be able to do the have as many people to be able to do the have as many people to be able to do the same amount of work. And I think their same amount of work. And I think their same amount of work. And I think their billing model is going to change. But billing model is going to change. But billing model is going to change. But anyways, I think I think Harvey is a anyways, I think I think Harvey is a anyways, I think I think Harvey is a perfect example of like as AI happen as perfect example of like as AI happen as perfect example of like as AI happen as AI happens right now, there's going to AI happens right now, there's going to AI happens right now, there's going to be these winners for the decade. Like, be these winners for the decade. Like, be these winners for the decade. Like, oh, remember all those companies that oh, remember all those companies that oh, remember all those companies that got started when the AI happened? Like, got started when the AI happened? Like, got started when the AI happened? Like, yeah, there's the big ones, OpenAI and yeah, there's the big ones, OpenAI and yeah, there's the big ones, OpenAI and Anthropic and others. And then I think Anthropic and others. And then I think Anthropic and others. And then I think there's going to be these like vertical there's going to be these like vertical there's going to be these like vertical ones. And uh to me, the legal one is ones. And uh to me, the legal one is ones. And uh to me, the legal one is like a clearcut obvious in-your-face like a clearcut obvious in-your-face like a clearcut obvious in-your-face vertical one that will be is pretty big. vertical one that will be is pretty big. vertical one that will be is pretty big. If you do the math, by the way, of like, If you do the math, by the way, of like, If you do the math, by the way, of like, you know, every law firm is going to use you know, every law firm is going to use you know, every law firm is going to use AI. this I don't think there's gonna be AI. this I don't think there's gonna be AI. this I don't think there's gonna be any law firms that are not using AI any law firms that are not using AI any law firms that are not using AI depending on how much market share you depending on how much market share you depending on how much market share you think they're going to capture you sort think they're going to capture you sort think they're going to capture you sort of multiply that times $100,000 per firm of multiply that times $100,000 per firm of multiply that times $100,000 per firm and you very quickly get into the tens and you very quickly get into the tens and you very quickly get into the tens of billions in revenue available to of billions in revenue available to of billions in revenue available to >> the thesis for Harvey has there there >> the thesis for Harvey has there there >> the thesis for Harvey has there there hasn't been a lot of big outcomes of hasn't been a lot of big outcomes of hasn't been a lot of big outcomes of just building software for lawyers so just building software for lawyers so just building software for lawyers so when investors have backed Harvey it's when investors have backed Harvey it's when investors have backed Harvey it's been a general thesis that they're going been a general thesis that they're going been a general thesis that they're going to capture some of the current like to capture some of the current like to capture some of the current like labor spend right which is which is a labor spend right which is which is a labor spend right which is which is a much much bigger market than enterprise much much bigger market than enterprise much much bigger market than enterprise software. I had a I've got a friend who software. I had a I've got a friend who software. I had a I've got a friend who uh is at one of the big law firms. He uh is at one of the big law firms. He uh is at one of the big law firms. He got an early demo of Harvey when I first got an early demo of Harvey when I first got an early demo of Harvey when I first talked to him about it. He was like, talked to him about it. He was like, talked to him about it. He was like, "Oh, it's like it's cool." And then a "Oh, it's like it's cool." And then a "Oh, it's like it's cool." And then a year later, somewhere in like early Q4 year later, somewhere in like early Q4 year later, somewhere in like early Q4 of last year, his like eyes were like of last year, his like eyes were like of last year, his like eyes were like wide open and he's like, "I I'm like it wide open and he's like, "I I'm like it wide open and he's like, "I I'm like it it's it's the real real deal now." So, it's it's the real real deal now." So, it's it's the real real deal now." So, they've made a lot of progress. The the they've made a lot of progress. The the they've made a lot of progress. The the product gets better as the models get product gets better as the models get product gets better as the models get better. The question is like how much do better. The question is like how much do better. The question is like how much do the labs actually care to build out the the labs actually care to build out the the labs actually care to build out the kind of more enterprise functionality kind of more enterprise functionality kind of more enterprise functionality that that Harvey's already built out? Um that that Harvey's already built out? Um that that Harvey's already built out? Um and and so they'll there'll naturally be and and so they'll there'll naturally be and and so they'll there'll naturally be some competition there over time. But uh some competition there over time. But uh some competition there over time. But uh we had John we had John Quinn from Quinn we had John we had John Quinn from Quinn we had John we had John Quinn from Quinn Emanuel on on our show today. The most Emanuel on on our show today. The most Emanuel on on our show today. The most feared lawyer in the world. Uh really feared lawyer in the world. Uh really feared lawyer in the world. Uh really really cool guy. You guys would have a really cool guy. You guys would have a really cool guy. You guys would have a fun conversation with him. Is fun conversation with him. Is fun conversation with him. Is >> that Elon's lawyer? >> that Elon's lawyer? >> that Elon's lawyer? >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. And uh I was I asked, "Do you >> Yeah. And uh I was I asked, "Do you >> Yeah. And uh I was I asked, "Do you think think think >> he's super nice?" >> he's super nice?" >> he's super nice?" >> Oh, he's he's a he's a >> Oh, he's he's a he's a >> Oh, he's he's a he's a >> sweetheart. >> sweetheart. >> sweetheart. >> Um but but not the kind you'd want on >> Um but but not the kind you'd want on >> Um but but not the kind you'd want on your on your bad side, but um your on your bad side, but um your on your bad side, but um >> but I asked him, "So so AI is really >> but I asked him, "So so AI is really >> but I asked him, "So so AI is really good at generating uh legal docs good at generating uh legal docs good at generating uh legal docs already. It might make some errors, but already. It might make some errors, but already. It might make some errors, but it can make them really fast." I was it can make them really fast." I was it can make them really fast." I was like, "Do you think we'll potentially like, "Do you think we'll potentially like, "Do you think we'll potentially have a 100x more litigation?" And he was have a 100x more litigation?" And he was have a 100x more litigation?" And he was like, "Yeah, possibly." Right? But he like, "Yeah, possibly." Right? But he like, "Yeah, possibly." Right? But he also said that that's kind of like the also said that that's kind of like the also said that that's kind of like the the bull case for lawyers still being at the bull case for lawyers still being at the bull case for lawyers still being at full employment is like we yeah you full employment is like we yeah you full employment is like we yeah you might a lawyer might be way more might a lawyer might be way more might a lawyer might be way more effective but there could just be way effective but there could just be way effective but there could just be way more cases. So that would be kind of a more cases. So that would be kind of a more cases. So that would be kind of a very American outcome. very American outcome. very American outcome. >> It's like what's that story like in >> It's like what's that story like in >> It's like what's that story like in India where they were like there's too India where they were like there's too India where they were like there's too many pythons and they put a bounty like many pythons and they put a bounty like many pythons and they put a bounty like if you bring us a dead python you get if you bring us a dead python you get if you bring us a dead python you get like you know whatever like you know whatever like you know whatever >> and then the python population boomed >> and then the python population boomed >> and then the python population boomed because people just started breeding because people just started breeding because people just started breeding pythons. Yep. That's basically what pythons. Yep. That's basically what pythons. Yep. That's basically what you're saying is going to happen. We're you're saying is going to happen. We're you're saying is going to happen. We're just going to breed more of this like just going to breed more of this like just going to breed more of this like useless litigation. Love it. useless litigation. Love it. useless litigation. Love it. >> Well, this already happened in legal. >> Well, this already happened in legal. >> Well, this already happened in legal. There was a piece of software that would There was a piece of software that would There was a piece of software that would help lawyers write down their billable help lawyers write down their billable help lawyers write down their billable hours and it would sort of pad it out. hours and it would sort of pad it out. hours and it would sort of pad it out. And then so there was software on the And then so there was software on the And then so there was software on the client side that would automatically client side that would automatically client side that would automatically scan it and say, "That's not work I'm scan it and say, "That's not work I'm scan it and say, "That's not work I'm paying for. Get that out of there. Get paying for. Get that out of there. Get paying for. Get that out of there. Get that out of there." And it became like that out of there." And it became like that out of there." And it became like bot-onbot war. Very fun. bot-onbot war. Very fun. bot-onbot war. Very fun. >> Did you guys see the episode we did with >> Did you guys see the episode we did with >> Did you guys see the episode we did with John Morgan? John Morgan? John Morgan? >> No. Oh, for Morgan and Morgan. >> No. Oh, for Morgan and Morgan. >> No. Oh, for Morgan and Morgan. >> Yeah. So, we had John Morgan on. So, for >> Yeah. So, we had John Morgan on. So, for >> Yeah. So, we had John Morgan on. So, for the listener, Jordy, I don't know if you the listener, Jordy, I don't know if you the listener, Jordy, I don't know if you saw would see his I don't know if he's saw would see his I don't know if he's saw would see his I don't know if he's in California or not. John Morgan has in California or not. John Morgan has in California or not. John Morgan has got to watch the episode. got to watch the episode. got to watch the episode. >> I think it might be the largest uh type >> I think it might be the largest uh type >> I think it might be the largest uh type of his law firm. What is he? He is a uh of his law firm. What is he? He is a uh of his law firm. What is he? He is a uh injury law. Yeah. Yeah. I think injury law. Yeah. Yeah. I think injury law. Yeah. Yeah. I think >> so. He has commercials everywhere and he >> so. He has commercials everywhere and he >> so. He has commercials everywhere and he comes off like a sweet he's older. He's comes off like a sweet he's older. He's comes off like a sweet he's older. He's in his 70s. He almost comes off like a in his 70s. He almost comes off like a in his 70s. He almost comes off like a grandpa. Like you want to trust him. grandpa. Like you want to trust him. grandpa. Like you want to trust him. >> Uh so he comes off like a very like you >> Uh so he comes off like a very like you >> Uh so he comes off like a very like you know PC soft guy, but you know, know PC soft guy, but you know, know PC soft guy, but you know, whatever. He's a lawyer. So he we had whatever. He's a lawyer. So he we had whatever. He's a lawyer. So he we had him on the pod. I swear to God, the very him on the pod. I swear to God, the very him on the pod. I swear to God, the very first sentence that he says to us, I say first sentence that he says to us, I say first sentence that he says to us, I say to him, uh, John, I hear that you own a to him, uh, John, I hear that you own a to him, uh, John, I hear that you own a museum on crime and punishment. That's museum on crime and punishment. That's museum on crime and punishment. That's really unique verbatim. Oh, that thing, really unique verbatim. Oh, that thing, really unique verbatim. Oh, that thing, that thing prints. That's the first that thing prints. That's the first that thing prints. That's the first line, I swear to God, that he said to line, I swear to God, that he said to line, I swear to God, that he said to us, word for word, us, word for word, us, word for word, >> makes a lot of money. That's >> makes a lot of money. That's >> makes a lot of money. That's >> He owns He owns an amusement >> He owns He owns an amusement >> He owns He owns an amusement >> park business and he owns seven museums >> park business and he owns seven museums >> park business and he owns seven museums called uh the Alcatraz of the East, I called uh the Alcatraz of the East, I called uh the Alcatraz of the East, I think he calls it. think he calls it. think he calls it. >> Oh, okay. >> Oh, okay. >> Oh, okay. >> And uh >> And uh >> And uh >> we were like, "How do you have time to >> we were like, "How do you have time to >> we were like, "How do you have time to do this? You have a five billion dollar do this? You have a five billion dollar do this? You have a five billion dollar law firm." law firm." law firm." >> And he was like, "I don't hunt deer. I >> And he was like, "I don't hunt deer. I >> And he was like, "I don't hunt deer. I hunt money." hunt money." hunt money." >> We were like, we're like, "This guy's >> We were like, we're like, "This guy's >> We were like, we're like, "This guy's incredible. incredible. incredible. I'm from John Morgan." I'm from John Morgan." I'm from John Morgan." >> That's amazing. It was it was one of the >> That's amazing. It was it was one of the >> That's amazing. It was it was one of the craziest interviews I think that we've craziest interviews I think that we've craziest interviews I think that we've ever done. It was the most different ever done. It was the most different ever done. It was the most different >> of the commercial versus the reality. It >> of the commercial versus the reality. It >> of the commercial versus the reality. It was like way different. was like way different. was like way different. >> There's a number of Harveys for personal >> There's a number of Harveys for personal >> There's a number of Harveys for personal injury people that are making software injury people that are making software injury people that are making software specifically to qualify these types of specifically to qualify these types of specifically to qualify these types of cases and uh will naturally be cases and uh will naturally be cases and uh will naturally be controversial because some people controversial because some people controversial because some people >> don't like the whole the whole category. >> don't like the whole the whole category. >> don't like the whole the whole category. But um uh that's just an area. There's But um uh that's just an area. There's But um uh that's just an area. There's going to be like vertical harveies. going to be like vertical harveies. going to be like vertical harveies. >> Terrible. Just send me your deck. I just >> Terrible. Just send me your deck. I just >> Terrible. Just send me your deck. I just got to take a look. I can't believe you got to take a look. I can't believe you got to take a look. I can't believe you guys are doing that. But just send it guys are doing that. But just send it guys are doing that. But just send it over. over. over. >> Uh we got one more for you guys that I >> Uh we got one more for you guys that I >> Uh we got one more for you guys that I think you'll that I think you'll like. think you'll that I think you'll like. think you'll that I think you'll like. Uh have you guys heard of send cut send? Uh have you guys heard of send cut send? Uh have you guys heard of send cut send? >> No. What is that? >> No. What is that? >> No. What is that? >> What is that? >> What is that? >> What is that? >> Okay. So fun name for a pretty serious >> Okay. So fun name for a pretty serious >> Okay. So fun name for a pretty serious company. They let engineers upload CAD company. They let engineers upload CAD company. They let engineers upload CAD files and quickly get custom parts made files and quickly get custom parts made files and quickly get custom parts made using software automation to make using software automation to make using software automation to make quoting and production fast and quoting and production fast and quoting and production fast and frictionless. frictionless. frictionless. >> Down a little bit. >> Down a little bit. >> Down a little bit. >> You send in Yeah. Yeah. You send in like >> You send in Yeah. Yeah. You send in like >> You send in Yeah. Yeah. You send in like a like a 3D file that says I want, you a like a 3D file that says I want, you a like a 3D file that says I want, you know, a cube mil out of aluminum and know, a cube mil out of aluminum and know, a cube mil out of aluminum and it's got to have a cylinder. it's got to have a cylinder. it's got to have a cylinder. >> Let's put it in skateboard terms. So, >> Let's put it in skateboard terms. So, >> Let's put it in skateboard terms. So, let's say you want to design your own let's say you want to design your own let's say you want to design your own pair of trucks. pair of trucks. pair of trucks. >> Yeah. Your own truck. You design the >> Yeah. Your own truck. You design the >> Yeah. Your own truck. You design the trucks on a computer. trucks on a computer. trucks on a computer. And then you take this file and you send And then you take this file and you send And then you take this file and you send it to them. it to them. it to them. >> They cut it and then they send it to >> They cut it and then they send it to >> They cut it and then they send it to you. Send you. Send you. Send >> you send them the file. They cut it up. >> you send them the file. They cut it up. >> you send them the file. They cut it up. They cut up the metal. They send it back They cut up the metal. They send it back They cut up the metal. They send it back to you. So this one's cool because it's to you. So this one's cool because it's to you. So this one's cool because it's it's fully aligned with like everything it's fully aligned with like everything it's fully aligned with like everything you hear about re-industrialization. you hear about re-industrialization. you hear about re-industrialization. >> The kind of things that America used to >> The kind of things that America used to >> The kind of things that America used to do but forgot how to do that. We we ship do but forgot how to do that. We we ship do but forgot how to do that. We we ship these capabilities overseas. But Send these capabilities overseas. But Send these capabilities overseas. But Send Cut Send is a bootstrap company. the Cut Send is a bootstrap company. the Cut Send is a bootstrap company. the founder Jim has been on our show scaled founder Jim has been on our show scaled founder Jim has been on our show scaled to over 100 million in annualized to over 100 million in annualized to over 100 million in annualized revenue uh you know completely revenue uh you know completely revenue uh you know completely independently and have thousands and independently and have thousands and independently and have thousands and thousands of of happy customers uh all thousands of of happy customers uh all thousands of of happy customers uh all over the US doing something that again over the US doing something that again over the US doing something that again uh you would you know people talk about uh you would you know people talk about uh you would you know people talk about the uh why entrepreneurs end up the uh why entrepreneurs end up the uh why entrepreneurs end up manufacturing in Asia one reason is manufacturing in Asia one reason is manufacturing in Asia one reason is because of of uh cost but another thing because of of uh cost but another thing because of of uh cost but another thing is just like speed is just like speed is just like speed >> like that you you know Every every >> like that you you know Every every >> like that you you know Every every person that's manufactured something person that's manufactured something person that's manufactured something here will tell you, I reached out to here will tell you, I reached out to here will tell you, I reached out to this shop. I asked them to make a part. this shop. I asked them to make a part. this shop. I asked them to make a part. They didn't get back to me for a week. They didn't get back to me for a week. They didn't get back to me for a week. When they got back to me, they said they When they got back to me, they said they When they got back to me, they said they could do it in a in a in two months. And could do it in a in a in two months. And could do it in a in a in two months. And so, Send Cuts Send is really focused on so, Send Cuts Send is really focused on so, Send Cuts Send is really focused on uh speed and ease of use. And uh they've uh speed and ease of use. And uh they've uh speed and ease of use. And uh they've scaled up uh organically. And the scaled up uh organically. And the scaled up uh organically. And the founder, Jim, is is just amazing. And founder, Jim, is is just amazing. And founder, Jim, is is just amazing. And so, how'd you guys find this? This is so, how'd you guys find this? This is so, how'd you guys find this? This is not this does not appear to be in your not this does not appear to be in your not this does not appear to be in your wheelhouse. wheelhouse. wheelhouse. >> Well, yeah. I we love we love having >> Well, yeah. I we love we love having >> Well, yeah. I we love we love having companies uh come on the show that don't companies uh come on the show that don't companies uh come on the show that don't you know every every single day there's you know every every single day there's you know every every single day there's probably half a million to a billion probably half a million to a billion probably half a million to a billion dollars worth of fundraising rounds that dollars worth of fundraising rounds that dollars worth of fundraising rounds that that get announced on TBPN but we love that get announced on TBPN but we love that get announced on TBPN but we love having founders on that that uh that having founders on that that uh that having founders on that that uh that have never raised a dollar and have never raised a dollar and have never raised a dollar and >> I met him through uh Jason Karman >> I met him through uh Jason Karman >> I met him through uh Jason Karman because Jason Karman profiles a lot of because Jason Karman profiles a lot of because Jason Karman profiles a lot of hard tech companies and he is a supplier hard tech companies and he is a supplier hard tech companies and he is a supplier to a lot of those hard tech companies so to a lot of those hard tech companies so to a lot of those hard tech companies so you can kind of think of him as like the you can kind of think of him as like the you can kind of think of him as like the index on all of those like somewhat more index on all of those like somewhat more index on all of those like somewhat more risky reindustrialization bets where is risky reindustrialization bets where is risky reindustrialization bets where is this drone company going to work or is this drone company going to work or is this drone company going to work or is that drone company going to work? Well, that drone company going to work? Well, that drone company going to work? Well, they're both going to be buying parts they're both going to be buying parts they're both going to be buying parts from send. from send. from send. >> Wow, great find, man. This is a really >> Wow, great find, man. This is a really >> Wow, great find, man. This is a really cool one. He used to So, this guy owns cool one. He used to So, this guy owns cool one. He used to So, this guy owns uh I when you described it, I was uh I when you described it, I was uh I when you described it, I was thinking like a more of a bluecollar thinking like a more of a bluecollar thinking like a more of a bluecollar looking guy. He owned a landing page looking guy. He owned a landing page looking guy. He owned a landing page company company company >> and then went into >> and then went into >> and then went into >> Yeah. He's just a he's like a he's like >> Yeah. He's just a he's like a he's like >> Yeah. He's just a he's like a he's like a just a hacker that decided to make a just a hacker that decided to make a just a hacker that decided to make stuff in the real world. Yeah, but he's stuff in the real world. Yeah, but he's stuff in the real world. Yeah, but he's very I mean the the bootstrap thing is I very I mean the the bootstrap thing is I very I mean the the bootstrap thing is I think important because like it's a think important because like it's a think important because like it's a capital intensive business, but he's capital intensive business, but he's capital intensive business, but he's been you know thinking about been you know thinking about been you know thinking about profitability, thinking about profitability, thinking about profitability, thinking about scalability from day one, set up a very scalability from day one, set up a very scalability from day one, set up a very healthy business that's that's not going healthy business that's that's not going healthy business that's that's not going to collapse at any point in time. to collapse at any point in time. to collapse at any point in time. >> We joked with him when he was on our >> We joked with him when he was on our >> We joked with him when he was on our show. We said if if you were show. We said if if you were show. We said if if you were venturebacked, you'd be valued at at 5 venturebacked, you'd be valued at at 5 venturebacked, you'd be valued at at 5 to 10 billion. You know, you'd be to 10 billion. You know, you'd be to 10 billion. You know, you'd be getting some insane getting some insane getting some insane >> multiple. He's happy to just build a a >> multiple. He's happy to just build a a >> multiple. He's happy to just build a a great business and compound every single great business and compound every single great business and compound every single year. And year. And year. And >> uh we hope that he scales up >> uh we hope that he scales up >> uh we hope that he scales up dramatically and enters a bunch of dramatically and enters a bunch of dramatically and enters a bunch of different verticals over time because different verticals over time because different verticals over time because Lord knows we need it. Lord knows we need it. Lord knows we need it. >> Dude, there's been so many times where >> Dude, there's been so many times where >> Dude, there's been so many times where Sean and I talked to someone and I'm Sean and I talked to someone and I'm Sean and I talked to someone and I'm like, uh, what am I doing podcasting? like, uh, what am I doing podcasting? like, uh, what am I doing podcasting? Like this sounds so much cooler. Do Do Like this sounds so much cooler. Do Do Like this sounds so much cooler. Do Do you guys Do you guys feel like that all you guys Do you guys feel like that all you guys Do you guys feel like that all the time um by talking to all these the time um by talking to all these the time um by talking to all these amazing people? I think most of the amazing people? I think most of the amazing people? I think most of the people we talk to, we know we have no people we talk to, we know we have no people we talk to, we know we have no business being in their business. business being in their business. business being in their business. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> And so I feel like we we're >> And so I feel like we we're >> And so I feel like we we're >> uh like I wouldn't want to compete with >> uh like I wouldn't want to compete with >> uh like I wouldn't want to compete with like Peter Rahal in selling protein bars like Peter Rahal in selling protein bars like Peter Rahal in selling protein bars even though I could go make a protein even though I could go make a protein even though I could go make a protein bar, right? bar, right? bar, right? >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> I think I'm missing that common sense >> I think I'm missing that common sense >> I think I'm missing that common sense cuz every time I talk to these guys I'm cuz every time I talk to these guys I'm cuz every time I talk to these guys I'm like we're so similar, me and you. I was like we're so similar, me and you. I was like we're so similar, me and you. I was like I shouldn't be just doing what like I shouldn't be just doing what like I shouldn't be just doing what you're doing. This is great. And I you're doing. This is great. And I you're doing. This is great. And I somehow think I can do all of those somehow think I can do all of those somehow think I can do all of those things. Halfway through the interview, things. Halfway through the interview, things. Halfway through the interview, Sean like acts like I'm interviewing Sean like acts like I'm interviewing Sean like acts like I'm interviewing him. He gets on. He's Sean's like, "You him. He gets on. He's Sean's like, "You him. He gets on. He's Sean's like, "You know, look, Sam, guys like us, we're know, look, Sam, guys like us, we're know, look, Sam, guys like us, we're just here to like do amazing things and just here to like do amazing things and just here to like do amazing things and like build great products and he'll sign like build great products and he'll sign like build great products and he'll sign off. I say, "Thanks. Thanks for having off. I say, "Thanks. Thanks for having off. I say, "Thanks. Thanks for having us, Sam." Uh, us, Sam." Uh, us, Sam." Uh, >> just become the guest on your own show. >> just become the guest on your own show. >> just become the guest on your own show. It's elite. I love it. It's elite. I love it. It's elite. I love it. >> I do like the bootstrap side because I >> I do like the bootstrap side because I >> I do like the bootstrap side because I mean, one of the things with Sarah's mean, one of the things with Sarah's mean, one of the things with Sarah's list is you don't want to be taking a list is you don't want to be taking a list is you don't want to be taking a ton of dilution, right? cuz even if the ton of dilution, right? cuz even if the ton of dilution, right? cuz even if the the stock price is going up, you don't the stock price is going up, you don't the stock price is going up, you don't want this company that's keeps requiring want this company that's keeps requiring want this company that's keeps requiring more and more capital, has a bigger prep more and more capital, has a bigger prep more and more capital, has a bigger prep stack, all that stuff. I had one on mine stack, all that stuff. I had one on mine stack, all that stuff. I had one on mine that was we don't have to go into it too that was we don't have to go into it too that was we don't have to go into it too much, but it's column bank that's kind much, but it's column bank that's kind much, but it's column bank that's kind of like this. I don't know if you guys of like this. I don't know if you guys of like this. I don't know if you guys saw the story saw the story saw the story >> that came out just the other day. So, >> that came out just the other day. So, >> that came out just the other day. So, the founder of Plaid the founder of Plaid the founder of Plaid >> uh his new company called Colum >> uh his new company called Colum >> uh his new company called Colum >> is basically like it's a fintech >> is basically like it's a fintech >> is basically like it's a fintech company. It's a bank. He actually bought company. It's a bank. He actually bought company. It's a bank. He actually bought a bank for I think $60 million of his a bank for I think $60 million of his a bank for I think $60 million of his own money. Mhm. own money. Mhm. own money. Mhm. >> And then he started this uh and he >> And then he started this uh and he >> And then he started this uh and he basically uses it as a uh the underlying basically uses it as a uh the underlying basically uses it as a uh the underlying bank under Mercury, under Ramp, under bank under Mercury, under Ramp, under bank under Mercury, under Ramp, under Brex, under all these companies. And so Brex, under all these companies. And so Brex, under all these companies. And so he uh and I think they're doing this he uh and I think they're doing this he uh and I think they're doing this number is out of date. In 2026, they're number is out of date. In 2026, they're number is out of date. In 2026, they're doing 200 million in revenue. doing 200 million in revenue. doing 200 million in revenue. >> Um he owns all of it. He never raised >> Um he owns all of it. He never raised >> Um he owns all of it. He never raised any money. any money. any money. >> Wow. And it's it's like you said, it's >> Wow. And it's it's like you said, it's >> Wow. And it's it's like you said, it's an index. So it's an index into all the an index. So it's an index into all the an index. So it's an index into all the new fintech [ __ ] It's like great. If new fintech [ __ ] It's like great. If new fintech [ __ ] It's like great. If you think Ramp's going to keep growing you think Ramp's going to keep growing you think Ramp's going to keep growing and you think Mercury's going to keep and you think Mercury's going to keep and you think Mercury's going to keep growing, well, guess what? column will growing, well, guess what? column will growing, well, guess what? column will keep doing well and they're they're keep doing well and they're they're keep doing well and they're they're doing extremely well and here you got a doing extremely well and here you got a doing extremely well and here you got a founder who owns the whole thing and so founder who owns the whole thing and so founder who owns the whole thing and so you know you go work there you're not you know you go work there you're not you know you go work there you're not going to take dilution in the same way going to take dilution in the same way going to take dilution in the same way because it's a profitable company. because it's a profitable company. because it's a profitable company. >> That's awesome. >> That's awesome. >> That's awesome. >> Yeah. And the the they're they're >> Yeah. And the the they're they're >> Yeah. And the the they're they're competing with all the banking as a competing with all the banking as a competing with all the banking as a service providers because historically service providers because historically service providers because historically you'd have the fintech like a neo bank you'd have the fintech like a neo bank you'd have the fintech like a neo bank like a Mercury and then there'd be like like a Mercury and then there'd be like like a Mercury and then there'd be like a banking as a service provider and then a banking as a service provider and then a banking as a service provider and then there would be the actual like chartered there would be the actual like chartered there would be the actual like chartered bank underneath it. And so column is bank underneath it. And so column is bank underneath it. And so column is like eating up the bottom two layers of like eating up the bottom two layers of like eating up the bottom two layers of the stack and saying hey build the the stack and saying hey build the the stack and saying hey build the consumerf facing financial services consumerf facing financial services consumerf facing financial services company but we'll handle uh the you know company but we'll handle uh the you know company but we'll handle uh the you know all all the different you know the API all all the different you know the API all all the different you know the API layer down to the actual bank. layer down to the actual bank. layer down to the actual bank. >> So the I'm just browsing it looks so we >> So the I'm just browsing it looks so we >> So the I'm just browsing it looks so we started uh uh this I feel embarrassed started uh uh this I feel embarrassed started uh uh this I feel embarrassed platter or plate I know what it is. It's platter or plate I know what it is. It's platter or plate I know what it is. It's one of the Yeah, it's one of these words one of the Yeah, it's one of these words one of the Yeah, it's one of these words where I read I never say. where I read I never say. where I read I never say. >> Column was started due to his experience >> Column was started due to his experience >> Column was started due to his experience building plaid, right? Because plaid is building plaid, right? Because plaid is building plaid, right? Because plaid is like the like the like the >> Yeah, the rails >> Yeah, the rails >> Yeah, the rails >> allows, you know, is basically created >> allows, you know, is basically created >> allows, you know, is basically created in in large part help create the the in in large part help create the the in in large part help create the the overall fintech boom. And so that's a overall fintech boom. And so that's a overall fintech boom. And so that's a good example of like when you're picking good example of like when you're picking good example of like when you're picking these companies, there's a there's these companies, there's a there's these companies, there's a there's there's like this, you know, in Silicon there's like this, you know, in Silicon there's like this, you know, in Silicon Valley, we all want to believe that the Valley, we all want to believe that the Valley, we all want to believe that the founder with no experience can just come founder with no experience can just come founder with no experience can just come in and just dominate the industry just in and just dominate the industry just in and just dominate the industry just based on, you know, sheer uh willpower. based on, you know, sheer uh willpower. based on, you know, sheer uh willpower. But sometimes just going going and and But sometimes just going going and and But sometimes just going going and and uh attaching yourself to a team led by uh attaching yourself to a team led by uh attaching yourself to a team led by somebody who has deep deep deep deep somebody who has deep deep deep deep somebody who has deep deep deep deep experience and has vision that is experience and has vision that is experience and has vision that is grounded uh around having worked in the grounded uh around having worked in the grounded uh around having worked in the industry for a long time is uh like industry for a long time is uh like industry for a long time is uh like sometimes you don't need to overthink sometimes you don't need to overthink sometimes you don't need to overthink it. Just like if you're going to join a it. Just like if you're going to join a it. Just like if you're going to join a company, go work for somebody that has company, go work for somebody that has company, go work for somebody that has done it before at massive scale. done it before at massive scale. done it before at massive scale. >> What an unfair advantage. Not only do >> What an unfair advantage. Not only do >> What an unfair advantage. Not only do you see the problem like you said, but you see the problem like you said, but you see the problem like you said, but uh it how many meetings can you get with uh it how many meetings can you get with uh it how many meetings can you get with fintech companies if you're like, "Oh, fintech companies if you're like, "Oh, fintech companies if you're like, "Oh, by the way, I started Plaid, right? You by the way, I started Plaid, right? You by the way, I started Plaid, right? You get you can get every single meeting. get you can get every single meeting. get you can get every single meeting. You walk in with incredible credibility You walk in with incredible credibility You walk in with incredible credibility and then you have you own the underlying and then you have you own the underlying and then you have you own the underlying bank." And then for for whatever reason, bank." And then for for whatever reason, bank." And then for for whatever reason, I'm not a developer, but like for I'm not a developer, but like for I'm not a developer, but like for whatever reason, like having great easy whatever reason, like having great easy whatever reason, like having great easy to use APIs is like a really big to use APIs is like a really big to use APIs is like a really big competitive advantage that seems like competitive advantage that seems like competitive advantage that seems like every company should do cuz it sounds every company should do cuz it sounds every company should do cuz it sounds like handwriting, you know? It sounds like handwriting, you know? It sounds like handwriting, you know? It sounds like something so simple. was like, like something so simple. was like, like something so simple. was like, well, a well doumented, well-designed well, a well doumented, well-designed well, a well doumented, well-designed API, but apparently it's a pretty big API, but apparently it's a pretty big API, but apparently it's a pretty big competitive advantage when you go into a competitive advantage when you go into a competitive advantage when you go into a space that historically didn't have space that historically didn't have space that historically didn't have that. And uh, you know, it's no surprise that. And uh, you know, it's no surprise that. And uh, you know, it's no surprise that a company like this is kicking ass. that a company like this is kicking ass. that a company like this is kicking ass. >> What a boss, man. We got to get him on. >> What a boss, man. We got to get him on. >> What a boss, man. We got to get him on. Um, amazing person. Looks like he's only Um, amazing person. Looks like he's only Um, amazing person. Looks like he's only 35, 36 years old. Um, hey, the bros, 35, 36 years old. Um, hey, the bros, 35, 36 years old. Um, hey, the bros, you guys are the best, man. Thank you so you guys are the best, man. Thank you so you guys are the best, man. Thank you so much for doing this. much for doing this. much for doing this. >> We're not the technology brothers >> We're not the technology brothers >> We're not the technology brothers anymore. anymore. anymore. >> We're not. >> We're not. >> We're not. >> By the way, John, I was wrong. I texted >> By the way, John, I was wrong. I texted >> By the way, John, I was wrong. I texted you when you changed the name to TBPN you when you changed the name to TBPN you when you changed the name to TBPN and I was like, "Oh, no. and I was like, "Oh, no. and I was like, "Oh, no. >> Technology Brothers, that's the one." >> Technology Brothers, that's the one." >> Technology Brothers, that's the one." >> Yep. >> Yep. >> Yep. >> But I was wrong. You You guys You guys >> But I was wrong. You You guys You guys >> But I was wrong. You You guys You guys made TBPN work in an incredible way. made TBPN work in an incredible way. made TBPN work in an incredible way. >> No, I mean it still is a mouthful, but >> No, I mean it still is a mouthful, but >> No, I mean it still is a mouthful, but uh online people just type it out and uh online people just type it out and uh online people just type it out and having four-letter domain, four-letter having four-letter domain, four-letter having four-letter domain, four-letter handles. It's like, handles. It's like, handles. It's like, >> you know, the other reason, you know, >> you know, the other reason, you know, >> you know, the other reason, you know, the other reason we did it is at that the other reason we did it is at that the other reason we did it is at that point we were shifting from just being point we were shifting from just being point we were shifting from just being the two of us talking the two of us talking the two of us talking >> to doing guests and we wanted the >> to doing guests and we wanted the >> to doing guests and we wanted the aesthetics of being like a cable network aesthetics of being like a cable network aesthetics of being like a cable network because we wanted to go and get these because we wanted to go and get these because we wanted to go and get these like public company CEOs on. If you're like public company CEOs on. If you're like public company CEOs on. If you're trying to get a public company CEO, some trying to get a public company CEO, some trying to get a public company CEO, some of them, the really founder mode ones, of them, the really founder mode ones, of them, the really founder mode ones, you just talk, DM with, text, and jump you just talk, DM with, text, and jump you just talk, DM with, text, and jump on. But a lot of them there's like on. But a lot of them there's like on. But a lot of them there's like layers of of uh people in the layers of of uh people in the layers of of uh people in the communications department uh that that communications department uh that that communications department uh that that you're kind of like needing to gain you're kind of like needing to gain you're kind of like needing to gain their trust and and so like by having their trust and and so like by having their trust and and so like by having the optics of being like a network even the optics of being like a network even the optics of being like a network even though we are just a podcast uh we were though we are just a podcast uh we were though we are just a podcast uh we were able to um you know end up getting a lot able to um you know end up getting a lot able to um you know end up getting a lot of those guests and and um of those guests and and um of those guests and and um >> that's a funny nuance >> that's a funny nuance >> that's a funny nuance >> of that it's like oh yeah the the folks >> of that it's like oh yeah the the folks >> of that it's like oh yeah the the folks from TBPN have reached out from TBPN have reached out from TBPN have reached out >> feels very different than you want to >> feels very different than you want to >> feels very different than you want to come hang with the technology brothers come hang with the technology brothers come hang with the technology brothers Exactly. Exactly. Exactly. >> It's like Jordan Belelffort is calling >> It's like Jordan Belelffort is calling >> It's like Jordan Belelffort is calling it Strapman Oakmont. it Strapman Oakmont. it Strapman Oakmont. >> Oakmont. There we go. >> Oakmont. There we go. >> Oakmont. There we go. >> It's like uh it's just a madeup name. It >> It's like uh it's just a madeup name. It >> It's like uh it's just a madeup name. It just sounded official. just sounded official. just sounded official. >> Um thank you guys. This is awesome. >> Um thank you guys. This is awesome. >> Um thank you guys. This is awesome. You're welcome anytime. And we You're welcome anytime. And we You're welcome anytime. And we appreciate you. Thanks for having us. appreciate you. Thanks for having us. appreciate you. Thanks for having us. >> We did their we did their sign on. Maybe >> We did their we did their sign on. Maybe >> We did their we did their sign on. Maybe we should let them do our sign off. So we should let them do our sign off. So we should let them do our sign off. So we we we basically asked you, is that we we we basically asked you, is that we we we basically asked you, is that it? That's it. And then you say that's it? That's it. And then you say that's it? That's it. And then you say that's the pod. So can you give us a We'll set the pod. So can you give us a We'll set the pod. So can you give us a We'll set you up. Is that it? you up. Is that it? you up. Is that it? >> We done. >> We done. >> We done. >> That's the pod. >> That's the pod. >> That's the pod. >> That's the pod.