The Secrets for Training in a Calorie Deficit (People Get This Completely Wrong) | Mind Pump 2959

Key Takeaway

When dieting, make your workouts easier to recover from—not harder to “burn more.” Keep lifting to preserve muscle, but reduce volume, favor lower-rep sets, and leave the gym before fatigue overwhelms your smaller “stress bucket.” Use bodyweight or unfamiliar movements to maintain a sense of progress while heavy barbell numbers may temporarily fall. Expect some nighttime hunger, go to bed earlier, and prioritize sleep rather than interpreting normal diet fatigue as failure.

Episode Overview

Sal DiStefano, Adam Schafer, and Justin Andrews explain how training should change during a calorie deficit. They emphasize that reduced calories lower recovery capacity, so the goal shifts from maximizing muscle gain to retaining muscle with lower-volume strength work, better stress management, and realistic expectations. Live callers also receive coaching on deloading, longevity-focused programming, nutrition, and recovery.

Full Transcript

Transcript of The Secrets for Training in a Calorie Deficit (People Get This Completely Wrong) | Mind Pump 2959 from Mind Pump Show. Auto-generated from episode audio; may contain minor errors.

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I'm talking right now. Hit pause. Head on over to MindPumpStore.com. That's it. Enjoy the rest of the show. You're in a calorie deficit. You're trying to burn body fat. That's the goal. What about your training? Should that change? What's that like? We're going to talk about the secrets for training when you're in a calorie deficit. Look, this will help you out a lot. Here we go. This is obviously top of mind for you and I. It is. It is. There are things to consider when you're working out in a deficit because it's different.

It feels different. There's different things to consider. I think going into it without any awareness can set you up for some failure. Should I be experiencing this? What does this feel like? Also going into it understanding the possible roadblocks or hurdles or mental struggles because there's a lot of those anytime you change something in your diet or workout. If you're not aware, and I knew this as a coach, as a coach or as a trainer, I would prepare my clients ahead of time and forecast so that when they ran into things, it wasn't this shock and I wasn't having to play catch up or put out fires.

They knew it because it's like, oh yeah, he told me I would feel this. We have to consider this and we talk a lot about the stress bucket. We talk about personal life stuff. We talk about intensity, volume, all these different work stuff that you got going on. All these count in your stress bucket. When it overspills, it's really difficult for the body to do what you want it to do, whether that be building muscle or burning body fat. You just have to consider that. I don't think we talk about it because we talk about it, obviously, it's necessary in order to lose body fat to be in a caloric deficit, but a caloric deficit is another stress.

That's right. When you're in a caloric, think of that stress bucket. When I am in a deficit, the bucket's smaller. You shrink it. You shrink the bucket. That's right. You shrink the bucket. That's just because my body ... The nature of a deficit literally means this. I'm not eating enough to sustain myself, so my body is tapping into stored energy, hopefully body fat, to sustain myself. That bucket is now smaller. That's a really, really good way to just explain that analogy. Love that. All right. Here's the first one.

I'll tell you. This, I learned a long time ago. I'll tell a story so it's all connected. I remember years ago, first of all, being in a deficit for me, a controlled deficit was never something that I ever really tried to do consistently for a long time, and mainly because I started working out because I thought it was skinny and I want to get bigger. Why would I ever want to get smaller? You never lost that mentality. That's right. Actually, I'm better at it now, but thanks, Justin, for pointing that out.

But I did. Eventually, I did really try to be in a more dedicated deficit, and there's lots of psychological stuff around that for someone like me, like, oh, I feel small on my shirt, like what's going on? One of them was just feeling weaker in the gym. When you're in a deficit, if you're training at a high level, you've been doing it for a while, you can't expect yourself to get stronger. Sometimes you can't expect to even maintain some strength, but I'll never forget, I was having these workouts, and at this time, I was trying to get really good at pull-ups, and so my pull-ups were getting better.

I was like, dude, I'm getting, and I was telling one of my friends, because I had been in a deficit at this point for maybe eight weeks, which is the longest I ever was at that point, and I was getting better at pull-ups, and I was telling my friend, I'm like, dude, I'm doing something crazy. I said, I don't understand how I'm getting stronger, and he goes, you're lighter. I was like, oh yeah. Pull-ups, dips, push-ups. I mean, that really is a good strategy to lean into that as you're reducing calories and losing weight.

Bodyweight lifts are great. Massive strategy, because again, we always talk about the psychological component of all this game, too. Totally. Right? I always got weaker. I don't know, maybe other people have had better experiences, but any major cut I went on ... You can expect to get weaker. Yeah. Obviously, my goal is to not get a lot, way weaker, but I was very realistic that I was going to ... because I'm coming off of a bulk and peak intensity, trying volume, all the things, and so yeah, going the opposite direction, it's pretty natural to see a decrease in some weight.

Now, I don't want to see a massive one, because that normally tells me I'm probably stressing the body too much or cutting back too much, but it's pretty normal to see some of that, and that can be discouraging. I don't care, even if you understand the science and you know what's happening. Nobody wants to see their weight go down. Yeah. It can be discouraging. I love to do movements. Either this is a time when I love to change up movements completely, like all of a sudden- Because then you don't have a baseline.

That's right. I haven't done Turkish get-ups in a long time, and here I am in a cut. It's a great time for me. You know what? I'm going to start reintroducing Turkish get-ups. Why? Because I'd have to start back at zero anyways, and I actually might see myself get a little stronger. That's right, because the skill gets better. Great point. It's like that psychological, like, oh, I'm actually getting stronger. It's like, no, you idiot. You haven't done it in a year, and you're just readapting to that movement that you used to be that strong in, right?

And pull-ups are a great example of that. So I think body weight stuff, new movements, great strategies when you're in deficit for the psychological reasons. 100%. And now someone listening is like, well, I got stronger in a deficit. This will happen when you're a beginner, maybe the first year of training, but if you've been training for a while, and you're hitting numbers, and you're like the strongest you've ever been, you can expect the top weight to go down, and it lifts like deadlifts and squats and presses.

But body weight exercises in a deficit tend to get better, because you're lighter. Pull-ups and dips and sit-ups and pistol squats, they tend to get better, and so when it does, it gives me that psychological fuel I need, like, oh, here I am. I'm doing this lift. I'm better at this lift, even though I'm in a deficit, and that's encouraging. I'll tell you something. Being encouraged when you're going in a particular direction with your diet is very important for consistency. It really is. And so for me, body weight lifts, this is a great hack.

Here's another one. Anticipate what it's going to feel like to train in a deficit or to feel depleted. It feels different, everybody. When you're well-fed, you go into a workout, and you're like, I could tackle everything. I feel like I could run through the barbell. It's not a problem. When I'm in a deficit, now, this is a proper deficit, not like too much, right, dragging myself, but when I'm in a deficit, it just feels different. When I'm working out, I don't have the same grr, the same grind, the same strength, the same intensity, and so I know this.

I have to prepare myself to go into my workout to know this is going to feel different than when I'm at 4,000 calories. My workouts feel very different than when I'm at 2,800 calories. It's going to feel very different. Yeah, the intention's totally different. It's totally different. I had it this morning. I was working out in my garage with my wife, and I'm training, and the familiar feeling of training on low calories is coming back, and I'm like, I remember what this feels like. I'm a little more fatigued.

It sucks. I don't have the same. It's just different. It sucks. It's demoralizing. Your glycogen stores are depleted, so your muscle bellies aren't getting full like they used to. You're probably lower on carbohydrates and calories, and so you're weaker. You're tired. You're tired. It can be very defeating and discouraging, and probably a big reason why a lot of people bail on it. This is also not to hijack this intro or tip, but this reminds me of why I used to like carb cycling so much, was because every third or fourth day, I would load, refeed, or push carbs way up from the previous really low three to four days, and it would remind me of that good workout feeling going like, okay, I'm not really weaker.

Even though, again, I know all that, it can still get in your head when you're weeks and weeks of this consistent, when you're trying to lose a lot of body fat, and you're staying in this deficit for a long time, so to have these refeed days, again, more great bodybuilder wisdom that we probably muddied up with the way that we talked about it and explained the science behind it, I'll just purely go from the psychological part. I remember that defeated feeling and feeling depleted, flat, low energy, all this stuff, but then I knew in two more days, I'd get it to load up, and then I would load up, and then it would feel like the most amazing workout I've had, and it would just remind me of like, okay, and then I'd have to go back down again and go like, it's okay, I'm going to feel this way.

So much of quote-unquote bodybuilding science or bro science is based off of psychology that they tried to explain away with science, but here's what happens with what you're saying. So carbohydrates are an easy macronutrient to lower because they're not essential, so you're not risking as much as when you cut fat and definitely protein, like you cut fat too low, your body can't function. You could literally eat 10,000 calories a day, but if your fat was too low, your body would starve, okay, so it's essential. Carbs aren't essential, so you can play with them, but here's what happens when you cut your carbs, you don't get good pumps in the gym, your energy goes down, and so that refeed is literally just so I can feel good again, and I look forward to it, and that's that psychological piece, but the other psychological piece is this, like knowing I'm going to feel more depleted in my workouts, anticipating it, expecting it, and then getting used to that feeling.

There's head knowledge and then there's heart knowledge, right? There's knowing up here, which is fine, but then there's the knowing of the feeling, and because I've done this before, when I feel depleted, like this morning I'm working out and I can tell I'm depleted, it's not crushing me, so I'm like, oh yeah, I know what this feeling's like. I've been here before. It means I'm getting leaner. It means I'm in a deficit. Here's the next one. Now, all things being equal, low reps tend to work better in a deficit, and here's why.

It's lower volume. It's not because it's heavy. It's not for this crazy muscle-sparing effect. Fatigue without energy is extra crushing, because you're not giving yourself that added bit of energy to really get through sort of more of the higher rep, and it's a little closer towards the endurance side of the fence, and so it can be pretty demoralizing when you're not full of energy. Yeah, like five sets of four reps on a deadlift or a squat or a press don't require nearly as much energy as five sets of 15 reps of those exercises, plus the 15 reps, that's a lot of volume.

People forget that it's not just sets that play a role in volume. It's also reps that play a role in volume and weight, but reps play more of a role. A set of 20 reps of a barbell squat almost to failure will fatigue you and hammer you way more than a set of five reps at a similar intensity. It just does, and so low reps, they stress the body less. They don't feel like dying as much, and they tend to be more appropriate, all things being equal.

It's great for preserving muscle as well, so that's a huge something to consider while you're going through a cut is the biggest thing on your mind should be how can I preserve muscle? How can I keep stimulating that strength signal? To do that without the high volume and more of the fatigue side, the low reps make a lot of sense. Listen, at this point of the training cycle, if we are in a deficit to get lean and lose body fat, the goal is no longer to build muscle.

It is to keep the muscle I built in the calorie surplus, and we've talked about the study. And what it shows on what you need to do in order to maintain muscle that you already built it is a significantly Lower amount of volume than what it took to build that's right So I know there's like ranges on the different studies, but it's it's less than half Nobody goes to half. I don't know anybody that is in a training rhythm Nobody cuts their volume when they're in a deficit period no let alone one I'm exactly and yet you can go less than half I mean today so I my rule is get in there touch the weights get out at this point let the diet do the work And understand that I'm working with a smaller stress bucket and the longer I stay in there the more repetitions I do the more volume and intensity I push in this deficit the more likely I am to over spill that stress book the number one problem With people's training when they're in a deficit is they burn themselves out.

That's the number one problem Because here's the thought process right? I'm trying to lose body fat So I'm cutting my calories, so I've kind of burned more calories on my workout I'm gonna push it even harder, but you're literally setting yourself up for failure the stress bucket smaller because of the lower calories You're gonna go train even harder, which is gonna make it more difficult to recover from and that's a muscle destroyer That's a fantastic way to lose muscle and again referring to the data Adam like the thing that you want to manage the most is stress management and Sending a signal to maintain muscle doesn't require much, but the problem is is we think well, I got to keep muscle I'm gonna frantically train the heck out of myself to keep this muscle But they forget that their stress bucket is smaller because they're in a deficit low reps Really does a good job as maps anabolic phase one is the most successful Phase of any mass program meat for me personally in a deficit when I put myself in a deficit if I train like that I keep muscle.

I feel good. I don't over train when I start pushing the volume and my calories drop I I have to bump my calories Otherwise, I'm gonna burn myself out and I can feel my workouts I could see it in the way I look so low reps tend to work better when you're in a deficit all right Here's another one, and this is more of a like Anticipate this you're gonna feel hungry at night. Mm-hmm. You just are people are so afraid of the hunger signal Okay, and I get it I get that we communicate in the space like, you know feed yourself if you're hungry You shouldn't feel hungry.

You know our diet makes it so that you never have a hunger again Here's a supplement. That'll make it so you're not hungry Oh GLP ones that'll control your hunger and they do pretty well a pretty good job of doing that But when you're in a deficit you can expect to feel some hunger and it typically hits at night Typically when you're not busy, you're at you're sitting around you've eaten your meals And then it starts to hit and what you typically did in the past is you go reach for more food or a snack or whatever Know that when you're in a deficit, especially if it's a substantial deficit that at night You're gonna start to feel hungry and kind of make friends with it now I'm not speaking to people who have dysfunctional eating patterns around restricting themselves These are people that I'm like, no, no, you're way too comfortable being hungry.

In fact, that's your best friend But for the average person, you're gonna feel some hunger at night and I know this I know when I'm in a deficit at night I'm thinking about food a little bit. But what I tell myself is like, oh, yeah, I'm in a deficit This is my body's burning body body supposed to send that signal. Yes. Yeah, you're supposed to feel that a little bit This is arguably the one of the hardest things I think of the cut is that is the evenings?

Oh, yeah, at least personally personally You know, this is where I wind down Katrina and I will watch a TV series or something. It's so hard not to grab us yeah, the habits the cravings the actual real hunger because you're been in a deficit for the last couple weeks like it all sets in The things that works for me is the the reframing There's two things I lean on at this time and I'm this is again very top of mind right now for me one is I remind myself like that feeling and I know that I've been in multiple days in a row of a deficit like I'm laying on this couch watching a great show with my wife and I am burning body fat Like what a cool thing what I'm like, I'm getting leaner by the minute right and I think about that The other thing I that it encourages for me, which is really good is I have a hard time going to bed really early But when I'm hungry, I'm so motivated to go to bed It's the number one hack.

Yes for me Yeah, when I'm when I'm in a deficit and I'm starting to feel hunger is to go to bed I'm longer you stay up the longer you I'm telling Katrina like 830. I'm like, hey, let's go. Let's go By the way, I'm gonna see there's a double there's two sides Yeah, you get a full night's sleep. You get nine hours sleep what you need with a smaller stress bucket. That's right So it's like I'm avoiding this, you know, that's right. That's and I lean into those two things I lean into hey, I'm leaning out while I'm relaxing here and to man I really want to go to bed earlier because I don't want to stay up for another two hours thinking about food and oh Guess what?

That makes me have better sleep better recovery Increases that stress bucket bigger like this is the way to go. Yeah, there's so I have another hack with that So it's that I totally do that. And the other one is carbonated water Carbonated water sipping on that throughout the evening does help make a difference and I've used this with clients as well I've even had clients add a little salt and light to it Well, then that too if like somebody's kind of cutting out alcohol, it works really well with like It's totally Corona, yeah, I think there's two things that are happening there because I do I kick up like I start drinking my element way more I Normally would have to now at this point and I think there's I also think that if you're doing this really clean and through whole Foods, you naturally are reducing sodium quite a bit.

That's the last one and there's a part that like that feels good like that Yes, that's the last one was the sodium hack So here's what oftentimes and I had this happen with clients a couple times before we really figured this out When you drop your calories when you especially if you're sticking a whole natural foods Which you should if you're dropping your calories, otherwise, you're eating processed foods and training a deficit. Good luck with that So that's number two number three if you cut your carbohydrates Which you probably did even if you're not low carbs carbs are gonna come down if calories come down, right?

All of those things suck water out of your body Sodium helps keep it in now. Why do you want more more water in your body? Well, why would because you feel like crap you actually start to feel like crap you start to get dizzy in your workouts And you think is it because my calories are too low sometimes it's a case, but sometimes you just need some sodium Also, it helps with hunger if you need more sodium sometimes your body kicks up hunger So this is this is the sodium hack So unless I you're a bodybuilder who's gonna go on stage and needs to cut sodium which none of it I hope you're not listening to this and that's why you're listening to these tips Bump your sodium up when you're when your calories drop it makes you feel a lot better In fact, especially on low-carb diets, you'll hear people talk about the keto flu or low-carb flu where they feel like terrible It's because they need more sodium has nothing to do with the low car You know, I think people underestimate Because he got why salt all my food, but if you're eating all whole foods, it's not much it is wild How much you could salt whole foods compared to one thing package for the day?

Oh gosh, the amount of sodium in one piece of anything packaged. Oh, yeah, or one fast-food meal Oh, yeah, Lord is like 3,000 milligrams. So yeah So if you're eating all whole foods and seasoning it all up You still end up being you're way lower than probably especially if you're coming from because keep that in mind also, right what you've Your body is adapted to a processed food diet prior to this That's a dramatic swing for a lot of people and bumping the sodium higher than they would think with drinks like the like element Make a huge difference and helps out a lot.

Totally. All right, I'm excited to talk about One of our new partners because they have a product that uses a compound that I've been reading about for a long time So it's para choose. So these which I had all you guys try. Mm-hmm before we worked with them for a while Yeah, so tell me what your experience. I mean we talked off-air, but go and tell the audience what your experience well, it's well what it reminds me of is all the Benefits that you feel from caffeine without the negatives without the crash and out without the affecting sleep later in the evening I thought it was very interesting now If I recall long before they started working with us you found this through how did you you so I was really introduced this And I don't know if you took a pill form of it first or how you found experiment with it So when you drink it when you take caffeine about 80% of the caffeine Gets converted to something called parazanthin.

Okay Parazanthin is the reason why caffeine gives you energy. It's what gives you that focus. It's it's what picks you up It's the parazanthin. Okay, the other 20% for some people. It's even more to put you We have a liver enzyme that'll convert caffeine by the way, which is why some people caffeine There's so much more sensitive to caffeine. It has to do with this particular enzyme, but 20% or so this caffeine will get converted to a couple other compounds Theobromine and theophylline both of which are what are responsible for the jitters the edginess The stomach issues some people have coffee or caffeine.

They'll get diarrhea It's the parazanthin that turns that gives you that kind of energy that clean energy So para choose are these little little like gumdrop looking things You eat them which by the way I like that they're like this because drinking lots of energy drinks with lots of fluid like they're not as convenient something like this you Pop in your mouth. Yeah Parazanthin gives you the and they've done they've compared them by the way caffeine to parazanthin better focus better memory recall what way less jitters way less negative side effects it also the half-life is a bit less than caffeine and Those two compounds theobromine and theophylline have a really long half-life.

So when you drink caffeine at like 1 p.m Yeah, and you're like, that's why I got cut off before noon, right? Right. So you're like that, right? So if you have it at one or two, it affects my sleep. It affects your sleep It's the theobromine and theophylline which have like an 8-hour. I'm gonna have to try I'm like independent of each other I've tried both together and it was like a very similar effect, you know after the caffeine But like to start the day with the parazanthin first and like run it throughout the day So here's what I like about the para choose so I can't have caffeine past noon like you Yeah, if I do even if it's a little bit my sleep is is affected.

So I have to cut it off Usually I cut mine off early in the morning. I'll have it like 6 30 or 7 a.m. And then that's it I can have one of these at 3 p.m. Or 2 p.m I want to affect my sleep negatively because of the short half-life and because it doesn't have the theobromine or theophylline Yeah, but then mess you up a little bit. Yeah, but it does feel it feels like a smooth Caffeine. Yeah feels like it's not the same wired kind of edgy feel.

It's got a different feel So, you know for people listening is like if you want to try that kind of stimulant, what did you first hear? I remember you brought it up a while back. So what were you doing? You guys know I love supplements and chemicals and all that stuff better or worse and there was this post on And I'm always experiment. Oh, you saw a post on it. Yeah, and it's okay again better or worse I thank God. I don't have a podcast where I could use it for good I saw this post and there was this Scientist discover discussing this this alertness chemical with all these studies showing how beneficial it is Mm-hmm, and he was quoting these studies and I never heard of parazanthine before so I thought it was some new discovered Stimulant, which got me excited.

So my cool. Let's try this new this new over-the-counter drug Yeah, but I looked at and I read about it and I'm like, oh this is what caffeine Conversion like what a lot of it converts to and so I'm like, well, why would I take this instead of just the caffeine? So I went a little deeper and it was this other stuff that the caffeine turns into that causes these other effects Hmm, so I was like, all right, let me try it out. So I went online I found some random company tried some capsules and It was I loved it.

It felt good. I didn't get the crash at the end I didn't get the jittery, you know jitteries I'm not as sensitive as Doug is with caffeine, but I'm more sensitive than you guys are so I played with it I also my wife I'll give it to her 3 p.m. When she crashes if she has coffee same thing She'll have crappy sleep, but if I give her, you know parachute, yeah, then she's okay by time to go to bed So it's just another another stimulant. That's did they reach out to us because you had brought that up in the show way back when I Don't know.

I just saw the bottle They must have they must have heard us talk about you. They must have heard you because you talked about it before I did I brought up on a past episode Yeah, you brought it back and I don't remember how far back this was a pill of it But it didn't have the same effect. This was much more. I tried low doses and scaled my way up so this is 200 milligrams of parazanthine in one of the chews which will feel like You'll get the energy of like a good strong energy drink, but it feels so much less edgy Yeah, you just feel kind of like good not what I haven't done and I'm curious if you have cuz you're mr Well, you're gonna combine it with yes.

Have you done it with ketones yet? Oh with keep no No, I haven't. No, that's a good call. I've tried a pre-workout I've taken it later in the afternoon. If I crash I give it to Jessica all the time Yeah be interested to stack it with ketones Yeah, cuz that tends to be my post like noon type of deal to keep me kind of going like that dude I'm doing all the things it's funny cuz people were like making fun of me because I'm not jumping in on the bandwagon of The let's get lean, you know tiny train with you guys He's always reversed.

I mean somebody's got to stay big and jacked pronounced Yeah, but you know at the same time it's like do my stress but you turn my stress bucket is like this big Yeah, you got a lot. I'm like, yeah, I'd be a Dixie Cup right? Yeah, like what am I gonna do? Like just yeah throw more stuff on your throat. Yeah all the gasoline on that's a good all like nah That's the last thing I would want you to do. You're right Yeah, and I haven't had sleep sleeping terrible And so yeah, like I am actually looking at all terms because I still need energy and I need you know My cognitive ability to be sharp and it's so it's been kind of tough to balance that without taking like a million Speaking of which my wife called me out so hard this morning.

Oh, it's so hard, dude And she's getting better By calling me out because I love listen one thing I love about my wife is that she's not afraid to do that But one thing I also have a challenge with like I think all men is you know I can perceive it as criticism and then you know get defensive and the whole deal So this morning we're working out together I'm trying to make more time for us to spend together because lately we've been We're really busy serving at the church And so we're not really doing our date light date nights like we normally do So so this was a second week I did this is hey, let's work out in the morning together So we did and we're working out and she knows, you know this constant thing I'm working on right my relationship to working out like how I am with exercise and all that stuff and She's like, you know, I think the thing that you said I'm gonna paraphrase She's like if the thing you're trying to work on is your flexibility around it not being so attached to all of it And I'm like, what are you talking about?

Yeah immediately, right? I'm like, I've cut my training volume down I'm trying to get smaller right now, you know, I'm eating less like I'm not just trying to be big I'm trying to see if I could get my weight down so that I don't snore as much And I'm like defending myself. And she's like, no, you're trying to get shredded is what you're trying to do. Essentially. And it's like, so I'm like, and so she's getting better at it because she like backed off, let me sit with it for a little resonate.

And then, you know, she came and built me up a little bit, a little later, tell me about the great things that I'm doing. So I could like sit with that a little bit because she's like, you know, you can fool yourself, but she's right. I totally can. I can, you know, there's two sides of dysfunction and I can go from here to here and miss the middle. And so I'm like, it started by me saying my lower, my volume, I'm going to try and get smaller.

And now what it's turned into is I'm gonna get shredded, which I kind of knew. Yeah. And so she called me out, dude. So she's like, you need to lose muscle. I'm like, I don't know. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, my, my two senses, the, yeah, I know you don't like, I'm gonna give it to you. I mean, my two senses, the answer lies in the, the, the eating is letting go of that. That's where it lies. Cause that you can control both directions that way there, where if you truly just let that go or I'm like, Oh, we're busy.

I'm not going to eat right now. Who cares? And just keep going longer. I'm trying. Yeah. That to me, that to me is where it, where it lies. Uh, otherwise, you know how easily you can tweak things with that to really change. I'm trying dude. But it's literally, it's like bumpers. It's like the bumpers in, uh, when you play ball, it's like bulk cut, strong shred PRs, you're cranking them to die a little. Yeah. That's all. I mean, you, it's so funny because, uh, I didn't know that about you because I met you right around jujitsu time.

And so like, I didn't, like, I remember seeing you when we were, when we were young, we're kids 24, you were crazy gorilla Jack, right? I remember he was all arms. He's like this, this all puppy and stuff. Yeah. So I remember you, but Jack for sure. Uh, so I remember you looking at that, but then I remember seeing you jujitsu look way different. So I, it never like dawned on me. Like this guy probably has bites more because normally somebody who can do has no form of that.

And it was like very comfortable. Like you had a phase where you're jacked and you had a phase where you're like, it's not body dysmorphia anymore. I know that sounds weird. After what I just said, it's feeling capable. This is what's weird now. So it's like, it's not so much about needing to look a particular way. That's cool. And that's second place, but it's really about, I feel, I think I feel more capable when I'm controlling a certain thing. It's more of a control thing. Totally.

And it makes me feel like I can handle a things. It's very difficult. Like I'm the hardest person to ask for help. You guys know that I don't want to, you know? So, okay. Based off that, just to get a little deeper on you and stuff like that is, do you notice, um, you, when things in your life that you can't control very much. So, um, does, do you tighten the reins up there? Do you notice, is there a correlation between, you mean when things gets a little haywire, do I try to add more control?

Yeah, of course you do. Oh yeah. That's when I'll try to numb myself more. With substances or supplements or, you know, I'm trying to bolster myself so that I don't feel so, you know, incapable, if you will. So yeah, it's the illusion. Look, I can say this up here, by the way. Logically it's here. It's not here though. I don't feel it yet. I can sometimes, but I can logic it. I could talk about it. I could sell it. I could communicate to someone really well about it, but to feel it is very difficult, very, very hard to feel weak.

No, thanks. I'd rather not. That's a tough one I like to avoid. That's a tough one. Anyway. You know, staying on the, you know, you're switching back to what we were originally talking about with diet and stress bucket and all this stuff. You know, it's been my part I love about what we're doing right now. So I, this is, this is the nerdy side of me and this is what, and I've actually felt a little conviction through this process of like, I was so resistant of like bodybuilder Adam for so long because like I hated that, uh, I felt like an identity I had when we started.

And I totally don't think I have that anymore, which I don't think so. Yeah. I think the fact that people get surprised, sometimes they see something like, wow, you look like that. So I actually, I prefer that. I'm not that guy. Right. And so I've been so resistant of some of the things I did that I forget some of the, probably the value that, um, I brought to the podcast through that journey too, you know? And so you threw it all out. Yeah, exactly. I threw it, I don't care, you know?

So I throw it all out, but I also know that a big motivator of what we do, um, on, on this thing is to add value and help others, and, um, I know, uh, you know, by you by far are way more knowledgeable when it comes to research and science and understanding that communicate that to the audience. Um, what I'm into is, is the tracking and awareness of all those things. And so, and you're hyper, you're like yeah. And I feel, uh, and in, I'm also noticing that I'm at a, in a different stage of my life, which have different things are surfacing with, uh, the training, stress, sleep, all those things that are fascinating to me.

And, uh, this last one, what, with the whole, uh, like the amount of time that it took me, I literally just last night, this morning, I got up and finally saw my readiness score in the high seventies. I, yesterday, 47. Oh, wow. I mean, just terrible terror. Uh, I also didn't get the greatest night's sleep plus I wasn't fully recovered, so it just piled on that. Um, and of course, like to our, of staying on theme of what we're talking about, I'm in this really low calorie deficit right now that I'm, I'm fully aware of and the combination of that.

And I don't have any other stresses going on, like home life is amazing. Business is great. Like I'm super happy, good place. It's literally just physical stress that I put, I put up, put a lot of demanding physical stress on my body relative to the shape I was in. Somebody else might, you know, laugh at that. That's a good point. Yeah. Like someone else would laugh at it and go like what your current fitness was, you know, versus what you started. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, that's what you have to consider.

Exactly. And, and that's hard because, and again, my brain goes like, I do, I've done way more, I've pushed my body way hard. How could this possibly be affecting my readiness so much? How could I be, my sleep be disrupted this much? Um, but again, like, you know, I'm at a different stage of my life. I'm older, uh, I'm more deconditioned. You know, the other thing that, uh, like light bulb for me that went off with, like, just how, how quickly that deconditioning over time, like creeps up on you, like, uh, and I know I teased you a little bit about when you talked about your speed of walking on the treadmill, but I, I, so I have a, I have a very clear image of like when I would get up every morning and walk on that treadmill and speed for incline was like a, like a stroll for me, uh, where I would trip over my feet, uh, at that speed right now and I've, and I had to start at like three, three, two, and work, work my way all the way up.

And that's like, subconsciously it's all walking, so it's not like a different form or modality. Natural speed is changing. Yeah. And, and also again, like my natural conditioning and how I move throughout the whole day and all those things. And so all these things are affected and that's the value of tracking so many things, because if you just thought or just felt, you wouldn't necessarily notice. At all. Yeah. Cause I'm doing, I'm doing the same stuff. That's right. Um, but I, I do notice that and I, and again, because I tracked even the speeds and stuff, I remember when I was first getting on and getting back on my kick of walking on the treadmill and started to go up and it was like, and I was trying to multitask reading emails and stuff and be like, I can't even do this at three, five, I'm like, this is weird.

But I realized that like, wow, like how much I even lost the skill of doing something so basic, uh, as that, and I wouldn't say lost cause I could still do it, but how much it digressed in that, that, that short period of time of just being inconsistent with that. And so, yeah, a lot of awareness around that, a lot of awareness right now around, um, the managing the stress level in relation to it was really difficult for me the last three days to not train.

Like, I feel like one of the things I'm sure you feel too, is like when you're dialed and you're feeling good rhythm, oh, and you're in a rhythm. It's like, I I'm, I'm at that place right now again, too, where when I'm going to bed early and I'm thinking, I'm thinking about my workout, I'm going to do that. And yeah, you, everyone's like, yeah, like, like I'm excited to get my work. My bag's already packed for tomorrow and I've already got like, I'm going to hit my own man.

I'm going to do this. Like I'm a, and so, and I like that feeling, right. And I'm excited and there's nothing more discouraging than getting up and then, and having a shit night of sleep and then seeing that. And then to tell myself, I'm not going to go do that. Like that I I'm, I'm, I'm having a hard time with that. That was, it was been more difficult than I thought it would. And, uh, and so. I told you off air that I've been holding like this extra four or five pounds, even though everything's dialed, uh, uh, three of that came off the last night.

Just what you said. Yep. Exactly. Yeah. It was all inflammation. Yep. Yeah. Wow. And literally just, we're just really you overcorrected or if I would have pushed through and done a, you'd be holding on to more, which would make you overcorrect even more, which is what people do. Yeah. I know. Yeah. Isn't that cool? Mm-hmm. Yeah, no, it's, it's, it's really interesting. That's what you learned, uh, competing. Yeah. You learned all those things competing. Most of the, the thing that I loved about it is this part.

I did really, I've always, the thing that did get me involved in health and fitness. I did enjoy, um, learning about myself selfishly, like, you know, I like helping people, um, but I really geeked out on like myself and my own health and those things, and this is why I like all those metrics because it gives me another thing other than just what I've read or a feeling it's like, oh, I have measurable things that I I've paid attention to. And then it reminds me of communicating to so many clients, like how easily they get discouraged when they see that I get discouraged and I know the science and I know what's going on and I can still be discouraged.

So man, how many people out there are, they, they feel like they're, they're, they know they're like, I know I'm eating good. That's why we say trust the process. Yeah. I know I'm eating good. I know I'm in a deficit. I know I've hit the gym X amount of times this week. Like, why do I still look like this? Why is it still? And it's just like, man, like you're probably not accounting for how much stress on the body and that extra little bit of inflammation that you're holding on is enough to make you feel fluffy and make you feel, and even it register on a scale, you're up a pound or two and it's not going down and man, how many people course correct or bail?

Did you guys, I know you saw this, Justin, did you guys see the whole, the developments on Noah's Ark? Did, have you seen this? So guys, I remember when they originally found this spot. Yeah, this is different. Well, nobody's been able to go up there because of the government that's there. Um, this is Mount Ararat, but apparently because of the new technology with that ground penetrating, uh, radar that they use on like the pyramids and everything else, they found all these chambers under there to explore.

Like, I guess there's motivation now to actually go, um, dig it up. Are there visuals? Yes. Oh, let me see. So you can see the top of it. So here's why this is a trip, by the way, this is one of many, one of many things that have been proven correct by archeological finds or historical evidence that the Bible said that everybody made fun of. This is the dimensions and everything will trip you up. Okay. So first off, I'll tell you. Are they really that aligned?

Listen, it is. So here's, what's cool. When you read the Bible and you read about, uh, how Noah was instructed to build the Ark, it's very specific with the size and the length and the kind of wood used. So it's really easy to disprove. Number one, if you never find the Ark, you can say, well, that was a fake story. But if you do find something that looks like the Ark, you could easily say, well, the Bible said it was this long. Yeah. The Bible said it was made with this wood.

The Bible said it was this many floors and it's not, well, here's what they're finding. It's the exact same length as described. It is located in the exact same place that's described in the Bible. There's, there are 26 boat anchor stones found in the vicinity, which are also described. They're finding it is matching. Right. So these like big, uh, monolithic type. Yeah. Like rocks and that with a hole. Yeah. So the holes where they would tie off, you know, those were like basically anchors that they'd throw off the boat.

Now an archeological, archeologists and scientists are hating this right now. Why? Because it validates what sounds like, uh, from a scientific perspective, a crazy story. Yeah. Which by the way, I looked up a bunch more. I said, are there more of these kind of things that have been proven throughout history? And, uh, the answer is there's a ton. Yeah. So I'll, I'll tell you one of them, right? You guys know the story of, uh, of Jericho and how the walls fell outward because they marched around the city, trumpets blaring, walls fell outward, they walked up the walls into the city.

First of all, if you sack a town or a city, you knock the walls in, not out. Who knocks them out? That doesn't happen. Well, they found it eventually they found it and they found, oh yeah, the, the walls fell out exactly as described in a way to where armies could march up. But there's a lot of stuff that's in the Bible that has been proven. I wish I knew all the details, but like there's a podcast, this guy was describing the shroud of Turin and like all the different like DNA evidence and like wild, wild stuff.

Like, uh, that, that totally aligns with it being authentic. It does. But here's the deal. Shroud of Turin wasn't talked about in the Bible. My favorite things are things that are written in the Bible. So another one, Pontus Pilate. Pontus Pilate was the Roman, uh, politician or leader who's the one that, that basically said, okay, crucify Christ. Well, for a long time, but like, we have no evidence this guy even existed. He's only spoken about in the gospels. Well, in 1961, they found, uh, Latin dedications, Pontus Pilate, coins and a ring with his name.

So like, oh no, he's a real guy. And he existed right around the time that this would have happened. The pools of Beth, Beth, uh, Beth East, Esther and Siloam. That's another one. Uh, the King, King David, do you guys know that for a long time, scholars thought that David, they said he was just a literal invention. He didn't really exist. Then in 1993, they discovered inscriptions, uh, from the ninth century BC that refers to the King of the house of David. So there's like so many things.

My, you know, my favorite one is, and I learned this one relatively recently for a long time, uh, scientists said the universe was eternal. It's existed forever. It's always been there. Never had a beginning. And then when they looked out, uh, was the Hubble or yeah. And they said, oh, it's expanding. And if you turn back time, that means it all started in a place at all back to point and it points to Genesis. And this, by the way, at the time, the scientists did not like this discovery because they said, well, this just confirms what the Bible says, which is, uh, in the beginning and everything was created.

So cool, dude. Noah's Ark is the wildest one because when I was... Is that happening right now? Yeah, dude. So they're all in on it right now. Yeah, and they're digging down. Ark of the Covenant's coming next. So they're actually getting into it. Ever since Indiana Jones. Yeah, dude. Oh, wow. So, I mean, if you asked me as an atheist and you said, what's the craziest, like, what story is the most made up, I would have said Noah. Well, yeah, two of every animal, this great flood.

But, like, there's so many flood myths in, like, every culture, too, and, like, it was the Epic of Gilgamesh, and there's, like, a bunch of, like, really old texts that have, like, some kind of flood myth. But, like, that specifically had details of, like, how they built the boat, like, you know, animals involved, that whole thing. So... I think it's so rad. Interesting. And there's stuff you can look up, by the way, like the Dead Sea Scrolls, just one of my favorites. Until that point, we had read books, we had copies of books of the Old Testament that were written after the crucifixion of Christ.

And so, there's books of the Old Testament that predict how he was crucified, how he'd be pierced, how he rode on, you know, a colt, like, all these things. And so, you know, biblical scholars were like, look, these books have all these crazy predictions that actually happened. The odds of that, because, you know, were impossible, and everybody's like, yeah, but that book was written after. There's no way. And then we find the Dead Sea Scrolls, and we find copies of books that existed before. Yeah. And so, you're like, how could they possibly do that?

Anyway, it's really cool stuff. Ark of the Covenant's in Ethiopia. That is. Is that what you think? Yeah, I'm going to call it. Oh, when I hear that, I think of Indiana Jones. Yeah. Every time. I think the same thing, too. How you feeling, Doug? I'm feeling good. Yeah. This guy, dude, this guy's like, he gets sick. I know. He just bounces right back, huh? I don't know. I don't know, dude. For sure, the healthiest one out of all of us. a horse. I know. I just don't get this guy.

So, you had a fever, and now you're fine. Yeah. I woke up. Well, it was kind of a 24-hour thing. So, Rachel had the same thing on Sunday. Oh, really? Yeah. And then I thought I got away with it, but I didn't. Doug's taxi said he got the Kung Flu. You don't need to bring that up. Rachel in Chinese, everybody. I can't believe you said that. Doug's allowed to be racist. I know. But yeah, I'd never get a 24-hour. I mean, I think once in my life, I had a 24-hour.

Yeah. Oh, really? Yeah. I have a fever. It's like days. And I definitely at least look like I had one the day before. Yeah. You don't even look like you were sick yesterday. Yeah, I was. It wiped out, though. I woke up in the middle of the night on Monday evening, and I had chills and weak, and I knew I was screwed. So, what did you do yesterday? Just sleep? I slept. Half the day. Oh, good. Yeah. So, what did you do yesterday? Just sleep? I slept.

Oh, good. Half the day. Yeah. Oh, good. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Half the day. Oh, good. Yeah. Yeah. All right. All right. Good. Speaking of Doug, because this guy, he always defies time as well. Caldera's Eye Serum. Caldera Labs Eye Serum. I got some clinical data from them on this. So, the Eye Serum. You're the most consistent with that one. Every day. Every day. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I have a tendency towards very puffy eyes. Yeah. And it drives me crazy. Yeah. But the Eye Serum definitely helps.

So, what it's for, it's for dark circles. It's for eye puffiness. Yeah. It's for that kind of stuff. So, in a one-week clinical user study, 78% saw less visible dark circles, 75% saw less puffiness, and 87% said under eyes appeared to be smoother. So, and now they have peptides in there that are in there specifically to do those things. And again, it's like this all natural, just like all of Caldera Labs products. Very natural. Works with the skin. Doesn't like strip the body of its microbiome.

And it won Best Eye Serum in the Manual Grooming Awards. So. What's cool about it is that I actually can see a difference the minute you do it. Like right afterwards. It's not one of those things where you need to like, oh, I need to do this for weeks. Really? Oh, yeah, yeah. I notice it right away. So, I don't know if you do. No, no. Yeah. Every day I wake up, my eyes are puffy. Yeah. And you put it on and you can tell a difference.

Oh, yeah. You right away. Yeah. Yeah. That's true. That's true. I mean, anything like that to me is always, I mean, it's an easy sell for me when I can see a difference. But it's not something I have to take for extended period of time. Maybe I'll feel this. Maybe I won't. And then it's like, it's, I'm so scared. But it's something that like you feel or notice a difference right away is cool. And that or that. And I don't, I don't use it as regularly as Doug does.

Doug uses it every day. I use it when I notice that. Like if I wake up and I've got, which is not all the time. Yeah. I'm a little more react, reactionary for it. So like I haven't got much sleep and I'm stressed and I'm like noticing that. I'm just like, yeah, that, that's going to motivate me to kind of use it and see if I can help a bit. Oh, yeah. You'll notice a difference. I like how they pay for studies too. You know, there's a lot of products out there that will make claims, but they, you go on their website.

If you go on Caldera Labs website, they will have a clinical studies on their products to show just how much people notice a difference. So have you heard of this school, this high school, Adam, I, I'm, I'd be surprised if you didn't. Cause when I read this, I'm like, dude, Adam would love this. It's called founder school and it's in New York. Have you heard of this? Yeah. Who, where did I hear it from? Who told me about this? Oh, you want to hear what's crazy?

I either just read about it somewhere or I know somebody. It's like a Gary V thing. Dude. So this is a high school. So trip off this, this is a crazy concept. It's not a huge school yet. It's just got 20 students. It's a brand new school. It's $150,000 a year to go there. Sounds like a lot. Yeah. But you're mentored by other founders. Here's what they do. Yeah. That's cool. If a student doesn't build a $1 million profit business by graduation, they get a full refund.

Whoa. I didn't know that. If you go to this school and you're paying $150,000 a year, by the end of the term, four years later, if you don't have a business that's profiting $1 million, they'll refund you your whole tuition. Is that true? Yes, dude. Like if you invite schools that are really hard to get in? Do you know what the percentage of businesses that are profitable by $1 million are in the country? It's crazy. It's like a single digit. Look at that up for me.

I want to say it's 4%. So this is what they do. Students finish traditional academics by 11 a.m. So 11 a.m., they're done with traditional academics. The rest of the day is on building companies. That's so sick. Now, I'm wondering if the school itself gets a piece of the businesses. Yeah, you would think they'd probably. Yeah. I'm wondering, right? Yeah. If like the school's like- They have some percentage equity. Yeah, we'll get some of the business as well. They've got to, if that's the only way to make that a profitable way of doing things.

That's the only way you could afford to give. Because here's the thing. I mean, $150,000 a year. Because here's the thing. I'm going to have Doug look right now. And even if the school blasts the country average, which I expect it to, to be a school, right? The country average is like single digits. Yeah, no, here we are. One to 2%. Yeah, one to 2%. Yeah. So the school's got to be- Yeah, but think about it this way too, Adam. And again, I'm just speaking, I'm just thinking out loud.

First off, they probably pick the students. There's 20. So you got to make it. So number one, they're like, okay, who's most likely to do it? Number two, they got four years of a vested interest in coaching them and building them up to build these businesses. I mean, I would be interested- And it's only 20 students. Yeah, I want to get- Now, is it a million dollars profit or is it a million dollar business? I guess it's a million dollar profit. It's a million dollar profit business by graduation, is what it says.

Interesting. Yeah, because that's such a rare thing to build a business that is a ... Building a million dollar business is impressive enough. I think that number is also even single digits. For it to be a profitable million dollar business- Right. That's not just gross. You know, that's crazy. For a business to profit a million, have to be doing close to $10 million. So that's an unbelievable feat. Isn't this wild? It is cool. So again, students finish traditional- I didn't know that about that. Yeah, they're finishing- I heard about that.

I'll repeat this. Who started it? Matt Eliasson. So it's built by Alpha School, which uses an AI accelerated mastery based academic system. So listen to this. I'll read more, Adam. Check this out. 11 a.m., you're done with your normal school. The rest of the day is a founder bootcamp with apprenticeships and real businesses. So you're just, you're going to work, dude, for four years. You're building businesses and you're an apprentice, or you're being apprenticed by people who built businesses. What a cooler idea for school. Wait, are you kidding me?

I would have, that would have been- So much better. Sign me up for that. I would have loved it- You shot us around. Oh, I would have loved to have done something like that. Listen, it says here, led by Matt Eliasson, the first cohort is 20 freshmen. Matt says AI is the unlock. The expertise buildup, the capital requirements, and the time used to take are all collapsing, which is why he thinks a 17-year-old now can build a million dollar business. Early Alpha students have already generated over $30,000 in AI ventures.

The first, so we'll see. It says the first refund check would prove the model is honest. 30,000 or 30,000? 30,000. This is Alpha School. Now they're going to, now this is a different, I guess it's from them, and they're going to make this university. That's a wild concept. I would think they would get some sort of a percentage, right? It makes sense that it would be like built like Shark Tank a little bit. So you're not only, you already, just like Shark Tank does, they're already filtering out good businesses as it is.

And then they get to meet all the founders and they get to hear the whole breakdown. So again, thinking out loud- They're investing their time, effort, all that, so they're going to want to see something return. Again, thinking out loud, you're looking at the AI potential revolution. You're like, let's get some young kids in here. Let's find some talented ones who are going to dedicate time and energy. Yeah. And they're motivated to get a refund on their tuition. Yeah. I mean, they're going to probably come out with some bangers.

Isn't that crazy? No, I think it's awesome. I'm so curious to see how it turns out. No, no, no. Me too. It'll be interesting to see. I think there's- You can start one here on the West Coast. I mean, all they have to do is take a very small percentage of the successful ones because then they can afford to refund other ones. If they don't take a percentage of that and they have to purely refund that, then you're playing a crazy math game. The likelihood of, even in a school like that, what do you think, even if you're handpicking, if the nation's average is 1% to 2%, you think you could handpick 50%?

I don't know. That'd be crazy. Yeah. I think you'd be lucky to- I think if you did 10%, it would be wild. So do I. That's what I think too. I mean, that's 10- But maybe what they're thinking is one of those is going to be 50 million. Well, that's what I mean by that. That's what I mean by they got to be taking a 5% cut or a 1% of the business they helped build. That's what I would imagine. Because then it then funds all the losses on all the other, it makes up for all the, you know what I'm saying?

It makes sense like that. Or maybe it's a way to advertise his AI education, which is what he's really trying to build. I don't know. Yeah. But I think it's crazy. I think what an opportunity. Those 20 kids, what a crazy opportunity to go there and just for most of the day for four years, you're learning how to build- I mean, I would love something like that. You know, it reminds me- I would put my kid in that all day. I know. I was talking to one of my buddies yesterday, actually from my group, and we often share on here anytime that we were really wrong about something.

And I have to admit how wrong I was about groups like that. I was really resistant to that type of stuff. And I don't think that I'm- What do they call them? What are they, like mastery or- Yeah. The mastermind groups. There you go. They have those names, right? Even the name makes me- Yeah. And you know what? There's a lot of grifters in it. So I still think that there's a lot of crap. But I would have never guessed the relationships I built, the friendships and bonds that I built in that, the knowledge that I gained and how much I learned.

It was incredible. Perspective. Yeah. Yeah. I learned a lot. I still learn. And now I have this network and circle. One of my friends just exited his, Boom Pop, shout out to Blake. That was a huge success. He just exited his company. He was going through that while we were together. So he just got that news, I think, just like two weeks ago. So that was a huge deal. They are responsible for, they're the largest or second largest company that puts on events for big companies, like party events and organizes retreats and stuff like that.

So he scaled that and built that. Young entrepreneurs, man. These are all young. Which was also fascinating for me to be the old guy. I was the old guy, which felt really weird. I know. I know. I'm the old guy of things now too. I used to always be the kid. I'm still in denial. I know. I'm still in denial of that. Yesterday, talking to Michael, we had Michael Smoke in here, which was such a great- Yeah, he's a great dude. Yeah. I'm glad you guys got to- And Will, his friend Will.

Just these smart kids. I say kids. They're very sharp. They're grown men. I always say kids. Yeah. But they're just sharp. Well, they are to us. And I forget that, because I feel like I'm a peer. I feel like we're all peers. You know what I'm saying? But it was very eye-opening how we are. We're a different generation. And cool to watch his journey from afar, because obviously, the two of them were big fans of Mind Pump 10-plus years ago, while they were- 19. Yeah, 19 years old.

Well, it's funny to me to see a clear example of that generation growing up with access to podcasts, with access to education everywhere. We didn't have that. No. Yeah. And I think it's funny because everyone quotes so many different people all the time. And it's like, whoa, it's just mind-blowing to listen to them. I wonder, too, if we were the 19-year-olds at that time, would we have consumed stuff? Oh, I would have been a podcast fanatic. Yeah. I think so, too. I guarantee it. Yeah. I used to read stuff, because that's what I did.

You're right, because he's such an example. And he talks about it when we interviewed him, that he just was consuming, just alone. Alone and consuming hours, and hours, and hours, and hours. And then you hear him communicate, and you think this guy's got five degrees, and he's been through all this crazy life. Totally. Yeah, he's so knowledgeable. He just absorbs so much knowledge like that. It's so cool. Dude, I got to share something with you guys that I learned the other day. First of all, I like to look up what the old Orthodox and Catholic traditions will label as saints, and to learn about their lives.

Oh, I heard you talk about that. It's fascinating. They're really fascinating stories of why they are saints, why they're deemed as saints by these old traditions, how they lived, what they did, and just, there's just so much crazy history there. But I learned about this one guy, and they turned him into the patron saint of comedians. Oh, I thought you were going to talk about the wrestling one. No, no, not that guy. So this is a different one. So this is the patron saint of comedians.

Do you know what happened, dude? So he was, the reason why he got executed was because the church was taking in money and treasure and keeping it, and he kept giving it to orphans and widows and defying the church. So eventually the church and the political establishment at that time executed him, and the way they executed him was they put him on essentially a barbecue. They had iron gates with fire underneath, and they put him on top, and they had a barbecue. kill you. So hardcore.

Yes. Terrible, like terrible death. Do you know what he's, the quote that he has, this is why he's the patron saint of comedians. So he's burning on one side. He looks over at his executors and he says, turn me over, I'm done on this side. Oh my God, dude. Gangster. Yes, dude. And so this is a very, this is a famous quote, uh, from, and a lot of these saints, when they're martyred show this crazy courage while they're being executed where they, you know, it's like, Hey, you know, Hey, don't cut my beard when you cut my head off, like comments like that.

And so this guy's literally getting grilled. And he's like, Hey, I'm done on this side. Turn me over. It's like, wow, amazing, dude. I love that. They made it the patron saint of comedians. Oh my God. That's weird. Are you reading like a book that has all these? I have a book and then, uh, and then I'll use AI and I'll start reading up about these different saints and, and then I look for historical evidence, uh, is, is there historical evidence or is this like a, just the story?

And you would be shocked at some of the stuff that like these, these people have done and how they're recorded and it's like, Oh my gosh, dude. Like it's, it's crazy. We don't know more about some of this stuff. That's funny. Seed is the only company we work with. That's a probiotic company. A probiotics have so many benefits. The data shows they can help with gut health. They can help with anxiety, depression. They can help with skin health. They actually have shown this in clinical trials.

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They're the best. Go to seed.com slash mind pump. Use the code two five mind pump for 25% off. Back to the show. Our first caller is Kevin from Massachusetts. Hey guys, really appreciate you having me on today. You got it, man. How can we help? I'll, I'll start by reading my email. I'm trying to decide which maps program would be the best fit for me. And I'd really appreciate your recommendation. To give you some background, I'm 37 years old, five, seven, and around 165 pounds. I've been skateboarding for over 25 years, essentially my entire life.

I never had much interest in going to the gym because skateboarding was always my passion and the thing I focused on. Once I hit my thirties, the injuries started piling up. Between 30 and 35, I had two foot surgeries and then hip surgery to repair my labrum. I spent a lot of that time rehabbing and trying to get healthy enough to get back on my board. After hip surgery, I was eventually able to skate again, but I started developing smaller nagging injuries. Nothing was necessarily serious, but it kept, it was preventing me from skating consistently.

That's when I decided to take my physical preparation more seriously and try to get in the best shape possible so I could hopefully continue to skate for many years. That decision led me to the gym and unexpectedly, I completely fell in love with lifting. When I started, I knew very little about lifting, so I spent a lot of time researching on how to perform the major lifts correctly. I started following a PPL program on the ladder app coached by a professional skateboarder who had similar goals of improving longevity to skateboard.

I've now been lifting consistently for one year, nine months, and have followed that same program the entire time. Very rarely do I miss a workout and I generally train five days a week, if not more. About nine months into lifting, I discovered MindPump and it completely changed the way I think about training, nutrition, recovery, and changing my physique. The information has genuinely been life-changing for me. Nutrition has been a big part of that transformation. For essentially my entire life, I naturally stayed between 150 and 155 pounds, regardless of what I ate or how active I was.

I always ate relatively healthy, but I enjoyed the occasional pizza or other savory foods like that a couple of times a week. For the first 10 months of lifting, I didn't track macros and looking back, I was significantly under-eating both protein and calories. After one specific podcast about nutrition, I changed my diet the very next day and moved to a roughly 95% whole food diet. I gradually increased my calories and started tracking macros. Over roughly four months, I went from 155 pounds to 170 and eventually reaching around 3,000 calories and 200 grams of protein a day.

The exact thing you said that, the exact thing you said would happen ended up happening. Even though I gained weight, I looked much leaner and was more muscular. I've since settled around 165 pounds. I've also made significant strength gains during these less than two years of lifting. I listed out some of my heavy lifts in the email, or at least heavy for me. I know I'm still relatively new to lifting compared to someone who's trained for many years, but I feel I've developed a solid strength base for my training age.

At the same time, I want to continue. I want to keep improving my foundational technique and movement quality. I don't want to simply move more weight. I want to become a better lifter and build a strong durable body that will serve me for the rest of my life. There's another part of my background that I'm wondering if you think is relevant when choosing a program for me. After skating for 25 years, I'm extremely comfortable with pain, discomfort, falling, getting back up and pushing through physical hardship.

That's essentially what skateboarding has been for me my whole life. I think I've developed a high tolerance for discomfort and I'm beginning to wonder whether I'm actually that may actually work against me in the gym. Over the last year and a half, I've heard you guys talk about overtraining and recovery, and I've struggled to figure out whether I'm actually doing too much because I'm less than two years into lifting. I don't have enough experience to know what too much feels like for me. I understand the concepts when you explain them, but I don't always know how to recognize that in myself.

I don't I don't leave the gym feeling overly sore. Sometimes after a heavy leg day, I'll feel it for a few days, but that's about it. Almost wrapped up here. I try to get around eight hours of sleep every night. If I get less than seven, I'll generally take it easier at the gym, but I found it very difficult not to take most almost every set to within one to two reps of failure. Even though I've heard you guys talk about this constantly, I don't yet have enough experience to intuitively know when I should push and when I should hold back.

I genuinely love training hard, and my instinct is to almost always go hard. That's one of the reasons I'm interested in trying a MAPS program. While my current program seems very in line with what you guys talk about on the podcast, I'm hoping different structured program will be beneficial and help auto regulation instead of simply trying to rely on my instinct to just go hard. Although my primary goal is longevity for the next year or so, I like to maximize gains and physique change and then shift into a more long term, sustainable lifting routine.

Yeah. Thanks for calling in. Great job. Great job, dude. You're really strong too. Yeah. Yeah. Great. So, uh, are you still, is skateboarding still a big part of your life for that? Is that still something you want to keep doing? No, um, it was. And then I don't know, after like 10 months of lifting and I started to see a little progress, um, I just like lifting now. Wow. That's awesome. Yeah. No good. That really does change my answer quite a bit, but I'm going to, I'm going to back up a little bit, just so you kind of understand, and this will, this is good for listeners as well.

It's kind of what started happening in your thirties with injuries. All right. Cause, uh, you skateboarded for a long time and suddenly injury after injury, depending on the type of sport, okay, you'll see this happen. Uh, and it's not because your body is necessarily old, but rather your tolerance and resilience starts to drop a little bit. So the amount of skateboarding and intensity you were doing in your twenties then started to become a little too much. And so this is how injuries start to pop up.

And so people do, this happens with certain, especially very dynamic sports like skateboarding, uh, skateboarding requires an incredible level of proprioceptive ability and agility. And when you're a little overwhelmed by the amount of stuff that you're doing, because your body's really resilience goes down, then injury risk goes up. So you'll fall more and stuff like that happens. All right. Now back to your lifting, your physique looks great. You're real strong. You've got really good genetics. You respond really, really good to strength training. Yeah. You look like somebody who's been lifting for 10 years, bro.

Yeah. So that's awesome. I think if you like, uh, you like what you're doing, you're lifting five days a week. You seem to be doing okay with that much training volume. You mentioned MAPS anabolic or MAPS anabolic advanced. I think you'd be fine with MAPS anabolic advanced, and I think you'd see some really good strength gains, uh, from that program. Now, following that, if you want like a long-term strategy, I would follow that up with symmetry. Then I'd go to something like performance and then something like power lift.

And I think that would take you for like, I'll give you like a year almost of workout programming. And then as far as diet is concerned, you've got that dialed in bro. Yeah. Um, and I think you're going to keep building some muscle and just getting more of a quality look to your physique, but you've got really good genetics, dude. Your body responds really well to strength training. It's funny. I immediately, I would love to see you do like old time strength just because you're, you know, very resilient to, uh, struggle and pain.

And it's like one of the most challenging programs we have for that. But like the gains for that is like unreal. So, you know, consider that as one of the follow-ups down the road. I would, I would add something for you that I think if I was coaching, you know, I'd want you to do just so I could teach you and show you this, uh, you mentioned how, you know, and you grew good self-awareness to know, like you have that personality of like, I can just beat myself up, get up and go.

And so you're, you're, you're, um, gauge for pain intolerance is probably a little skewed than the average person. And you're like, man, how much do I pull back? Uh, but I don't want to lose my gains and everything. So you'd be blown away. If you ran like three weeks of like easy lifting, I mean, easy, like five reps short of failure, like just going through the movements. And I would make like, if we were training together, I would like make you do that just so you could see like, oh shit, I trained that way and didn't lose any gains.

And my body feels really good. Just so you could see like, okay, I could totally pull back way more than where I'm going and not go backwards at all. Now, maybe you won't see huge gains in that, those three weeks, but you will set you up for getting, but what you'll feel is very recovered, just as strong, look just as good. And you're like, oh wow. I'm I'm half the intensity I was right before that. And so I would do that exercise with yourself. So just challenge yourself for a couple of weeks to like go way easier than you think you should be even close to and just watch what happens.

And you'll be surprised how much you still keep your strength, how, how good you still look and what you'll probably notice is you'll be so recovered. And then when you kind of, when you ramp the intensity back up, watch, watch the PRS, watch the gains come from that. So I think that would be a good exercise for somebody like you to do that. Well, I actually just moved, so I took the last 10 days off from lifting for the first time since I started, um, lifting really, I haven't taken any, any weeks off, um, but I'm all moved in and I'm after work today, I'm going to go to a new gym and, uh, Oh, that'll be exciting.

Okay. So this would be interesting how you, how you feel this, these, this first week. And many times we talk about this on the podcast where we've learned this lesson where we'd have a vacation where we'd take off camping or something for a week and, uh, you know, interrupts your training. Then I go back and many times I'd be stronger when I got back with all those days off that normally is a sign that, okay, I was kind of pushing the rev limiter, uh, too much, uh, too often.

And I need to back off because just me taking a whole week off, I come back stronger. That's a sign that I needed that recovery. And so this will be good for you. Yeah. Makes sense. I just, because you guys talk about overtraining, like so much and like, at first I just ignored it when I first started like listening, cause I'm like, oh, and now I'm like, they talk about all the time and like, I go so hard all the time. Maybe I'm overtraining. Uh, I just don't know.

Like, I have no reference for what it looks like. Well, what people do is they wait until they, they get the signs of burnout. Right. So it's like, oh, nagging injury and I'm going backwards and I feel like crap, but they could have, they could have stopped that week. Yeah. Yeah. Cause then at that point you got to take time now to kind of get, get back to where you were type of deal. So structured, uh, deload weeks and stuff like that, it just prevents that from happening.

Well, and it's hard to gauge too, if this is a new thing, uh, to really find what the, where those lines are for you personally. But, um, yeah, the, the more we can kind of like play around with that and do less and then kind of work our way up, you'll find that sweet spot, especially when you're strong, dude. So the more weight you lift, the higher the volume on the body. And you're really strong. I mean, I saw some of your lifts, you weigh one 65 and you got to, it says you're dead lifting three 15 for reps and squatting three 50.

Yeah, bro. That's really strong, dude. Very strong. Yeah. So no, thanks. You know, actually, um, like at the end of last year, my, I started to have shoulder pain and, um, I got an MRI, had a slight tear in my labrum. So for the first half of this year, I only did, uh, like PT for my upper body and I did legs. So like, I went super hard on squats, dead lifts, like for like five months and. Um, cause I couldn't, like, I couldn't bench, I couldn't really do anything upper body.

So I was like going hard with the PT and now I'm good. Like, I can do most, uh, upper body lifts now, but, um, so that's why the legs maps, anabolic advanced has weak deload weeks in between the phases. Do those scheduled. Yeah. Don't skip, don't skip those, do those and you'll be okay. And then I don't know if you've heard, uh, me talk about on the podcast before, but just kind of a general for longevity, since we brought that up to, uh, we always recommend that somebody runs at least one cycle a year of either symmetry or performance.

So if you do a good job of like, so if you move in and out of maps, uh, advanced, uh, anabolic advanced, you do the old time you liked, Justin was saying, as long as you interrupt in a year, uh, a cycle of either performance or symmetry, I don't really, uh, make sure you do, you're getting a nice balance of unilateral multi-planar movements, rotational work. That'll really keep you the longevity game going for you. We'll send you anabolic advanced, and then I'll, we'll write down a list of what you kind of want to follow with a discount code if you decide to continue beyond just anabolic advanced.

Yeah, no, I appreciate it. Thanks a lot guys. He's got, uh, I mean, he's, if he's natural and he looks like that after he's got like, like competitor, he's got like, he can't be natural physique guy. I mean, even not natural, he's still, that's still impressive. That's what I'm saying. I think he's, I think he, I don't know. Uh, yeah, I should have asked him. Yeah. I don't want to put him on the spot, but it doesn't matter. Even if he was taking testosterone, incredible and impressive for, uh, that short a period of time.

And I mean, you know, a guy who said he didn't lift ever, all he did was skateboard and then all of a sudden touch weights for how long now, but you know, if you, again, going back to what he said about like, oh, I just got in my thirties, I started getting hurt, uh, at your body's tolerance for just lots of stress starts to lower. Yeah. And so what used to be okay becomes too much trauma. Yeah. And then you're starting to get, dude, that's those hard.

And then also back agility is one of the first things that kind of go, uh, you know, strength is much, much later. Right. And so things that require a lot of agility can be, it'd be interesting to look into Tony Hawk and how he was able to stay dynamic and dynamic, you know, yeah. I mean, you're talking about, uh, the, just the things required with the ankle mobility. Yeah, no, I don't know. One skateboarders have a million injuries, right? Yeah. Our next caller is Jen from West Virginia.

Hi Jen. Hi Jen. Hello guys. How are you? Good. How are you doing? All right. Doing well. Thank you. Um, I'm going to read my question only because I changed it around just a little bit. Okay. So I'm a 49 year old wife and mom of two adult sons and a former group fitness instructor. I started listening to your podcast many years ago and took a lot of your advice to heart. I changed my lifestyle, started lifting really heavy, incorporating rest periods, which was really difficult.

Dialed in my hormones, sleep and protein. For a while though, I was doing a ton of volume in the gym and walking a lot and started wondering if I might actually being too much. I thought it might be time to follow a program and challenge myself mentally by doing less. So I chose muscle mommy 15. Honestly, I expected the biggest challenge to be mentally backing off the volume. I didn't expect to get much physically out of it, but I was completely wrong. During the last phase, I was hitting a new PR on almost every lift each week and I was really surprised by it.

So now I'm wondering if I want to continue making progress, should I stay with the last phase of muscle mommy 15 for a while and see how far I can take these lifts or is there a point where I should move on to something like anabolic or another maps program? And my second question is how hard should I be continuing to push at 49? How do I know when I've reached the point where I'm pushing enough weight that I'm increasing my risk of injury rather than getting a better training stimulus?

I obviously want to continue getting stronger, but I want to be smart about longevity and not hurting myself chasing numbers for context. I'm five four and about 135 pounds. Yeah, good question. Yeah, you you found the sweet spot and I would continue to work through the entire maps 15 library. That's where you stay. You stay right in there. And what's great is we have ones like performance and symmetry, which will address, you know, unilateral work and any sort of imbalances that you might have. And so that'll be play the longevity game for you.

I'm a big fan of continuing to stay strong. But at one point you do start hitting numbers where, you know, the risk versus reward, especially if you are happy with your physique, you are relatively strong. Like, you know, I think that at some point you just keep maintaining that and you keep going. So what it would look like, because I could, you know, I could ask you what are your lifts and stuff like it really depends on the person. What, when the risk versus reward kind of ratio starts to fall out of favor.

So what it kind of looks like is this, Jen, is that when you're feeling stronger, there's a lot of ways to make the lift harder without adding weight. And so you can slow the rep down. You could pause at the bottom. You could squeeze a little harder. Um, and those are all ways to make the exercise harder. Now, the time to add weight, uh, would be if you want to keep it really safe, would be when the weight you're now using that you're trying to make feel hard, just starts to feel like this is way too light.

Then you go up a little bit and then you're good. Where we tend to run into problems is when we're chasing the weight. So it's like, Ooh, I think I might be able to do more. Ooh, let me try and do a little bit more rather than being like, I think I could go a little slower or let me pause, uh, the squat, you know, halfway up for two seconds, or let me try and see if I can hold it at the bottom for a second and a half, or let me slow down the negative, you know, uh, of the, of this portion of the rep so that you just play with stuff like that.

Um, and that keeps things pretty safe. And it also makes your technique really good. And another great way to pursue PR still and seeing strength gains and doing so is to introduce new lifts that you just don't really do. Like I used examples like the Turkish get up or a circus press or some of these move, a windmill, a weighted windmill. Like these are movements that typically people aren't as familiar with, or maybe don't do all the time. And so it's like, you know, maybe you've been doing kind of the same, you know, deadlift squat and basic movements.

And you've kind of hit a top tip tipping point where it's really heavy. And you're wondering, Oh, should I go more? Hey, maybe I start to introduce a new movement that I really focus on trying to get stronger at. And that'll allow a lot of runway of gains and PRs and all the benefits that you reap from that. And just kind of move in and out of new movements like that, which will also benefit longevity and everything else for you too. Now, I do have a question for you, Jen, if that's okay.

Yes. Okay. Just because your ex fitness instructor, you like to work out. Uh, you kind of fit in an avatar that sometimes under eats. Do you, what are your calories and protein and all that look like? Um, well, believe it or not, I used to be an overeater, so that's not been a problem. Um, actually I talked to Rob a couple of weeks ago when I was in the middle of phase two and he had me track for a week because I can get a little obsessive with numbers and I was between 26 and 3,200, but my drawback is, is I probably average literally for the past 20 years, 20,000 steps a day.

That's all right. It's not a drawback if you're used to it and it's not hurting you. You're totally, yeah, you're totally fine. Yeah. Uh, but you're getting stronger. So the 15 protocol, we have a whole library of those programs. Yep. So I, you know, you just finished muscle mommy 15. You could go, uh, symmetry 15. You can go power lift 15. You could go 15 performance. You can do the traditional. I mean, just, just move through those. You just keep rotating through the ones that sound interesting to you.

And what's nice is if you do bounce around through those, you'll, you'll organically do what I was talking about, which is introducing some different lifts and movements. And so, you know, that'll allow you to focus on getting stronger there. How are you doing with the long rest periods? Um, it's hard. I actually don't check my emails all day and that's when I delete them all. So I found a little hack for myself. Okay. Good. Good for you. Yeah. Just keep working on that. I know how, how challenging that can be.

It's challenging for everybody. Yeah. Especially for somebody who has, you know, group X, uh, background. So I know, I know how tough that is. Let me send you the tradition, the original mass 15. It's actually one of the most balanced programs that we have. Uh, and that'll be your next one. Uh, don't stay in a phase for a really long period of time, uh, because then problems start to pop up. So I'll send you mass 15 and then we'll send you, uh, what we think the next order of 15 programs would be best for you.

So you can, you kind of know where to go. Okay. That'd be great. Thank you guys. I really appreciate your time. You got it. All right, James. Thanks for calling in. Doing great. All right. Thanks. I was pleasantly surprised by her caloric intake because, you know, X group instructor, all that's like, yeah, usually, yeah, it's pretty 1600 calories a day. Yeah. No, she's kicking butt. Everybody thinks when they follow the mass 15 programs that, oh, well, nothing's going to really happen. Yeah. Everybody has less than everyone.

No, it's not like we have yet to have a caller call in and say, yeah, I went backwards, every single person was like, I can't believe it's probably the best result for most people. Yep. Our next caller is Katie from Texas. Hi Katie. Katie. Hello. Hello. How's it going? Good. How can we help you? I'm good. I'm good. I'm good. Hello. How's it going? Good. How can we help you? Good. Um, so I am back on the show. I had reached out a little over a year ago.

Um, I had just wrapped up coaching and, um, was starting to go through some maps programs and wanted to explore some things with a bigger range of motion. Um, I'm pretty flexible and, um, was starting to do the. Astrograsp squats and all of that and seeing my quads explode. So you guys had recommended all time strength. Um, I've gone through it now a couple of times, loved it. It is like exactly what I was looking for in terms of range of motion. Um, my shoulders look amazing.

My quads look amazing. Everything has been awesome. Lots of like increased proprioception and everything too, as far as just general, um, like flexibility with strength incorporated. So I've loved that. Um, I have also, I wrote in a while ago with this one. So, um, in, in the, I guess, eight weeks or so since I wrote in, I did start maps performance, um, just in looking through the program, it was pretty similar in terms of what I was looking for as far as format. So I really loved the three to four days a week with old time strength.

So I've, I've enjoyed that with performance as well. Um, and that's a pretty good cadence for me just as far as overall lifestyle, um, trigger sessions in general. So I'm kind of looking for a third program to round out, um, kind of my, my overall like annual plan, if you will. So really open to packing on some more muscle, some more strength and maybe something that's a little bit, um, I know performance obviously has some of the like plyo incorporated. So maybe we're looking at something with, um, kind of like heavier, um, like strength and lower rep for this third program.

That's awesome. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And that's, that's generally where I'm looking. I will say just as far as like general context, um, I'm 32. Uh, five foot eight. I'm super consistently around like 155 pounds. I've been listening to you guys for about six years now. And when I first started listening, I was like in the like one thirties. So I've put on like a ton of muscle since then. I'm like 16, 18% body fat now. Um, so I will say I'm like really open to putting on more muscle, but I have kind of like, I'm still with these programs I've worked on, I'm still gaining a ton of strength, but I'm seeing myself more recomp rather than like packing on a ton of muscle.

Cause I've kind of like reached a point where like, even if I eat a lot more, I still like my body likes one 55. Like it's, I'm, I don't really track it that much, but, um, it seems like I've kind of like camped out there. So I'm open to putting on more muscle and certainly open to like eating as much as I can. But I think just that context, as far as I know that you guys kind of tend to like recommend the reverse diet, but done that a little bit and, um, I'm open to it, but, um, I mean, I would love to push you in that direction while running it and you like, do you like the four day a week or three day a week, which is, yeah, yeah, so I usually do like every other day, so that's kind of a good cadence for me and upper lower will be upper lower and a high power lift.

It is three. So upper lower would be perfect and, and run it. And I would really want that when we run that program in particular, I really want to push calories. Let's push calories. Like we've never pushed before. You're in such a good place. You're very, you're very lean. You're getting like, I think your body is just going to eat it up and you'll get strong and pack home. It'll feel great. Yeah. So Katie, uh, uh, you're obviously, cause you're getting stronger. You feel good. Hormones are probably pretty balanced cause you're lean.

But everything feels good. Okay. Yeah. I'm like super, super good at like, like health wise. Awesome. Do you, do you generally eat kind of the same things every day? Like if I were, if you were to look at your day, does it look kind of similar most days? Yes. So I will say, um, just as far as like meal wise is concerned, I follow pretty consistent to what you guys have recommended. So, um, kind of always hit my protein goal. I never am low on that.

A lot of ground beef, a lot of good protein in there. Um, and, and pretty good with that. So I usually eat like three big meals, but I will say I snack a lot throughout the day too, just like I eat when I'm hungry. So, um, it's, it's, uh, pretty consistent. So, so if you stay with what you're doing, you're going to be healthy. You're going to still see progress. I feel very comfortable. It's all good. If you want to push it a little bit, um, then because you eat kind of generally similarly throughout the day, uh, then the, an easy way to bulk or reverse diet without tracking is to take what you normally eat and just have larger portions.

So it's literally like, this is what I normally would eat. So I'm going to add another two ounces of meat and another quarter cup or half a cup of rice or whatever. And you just do that. That's if you want to push it, you actually don't have to though, Katie. So if you're comfortable and you're happy and you're like, you know. I don't I feel good. Everything's great. I don't think you need to do that But if you're like, you know what I want to see what I can do in the next three months Then then definitely push the calories consistently on a daily basis and that'll be like turbo.

Yeah. Okay. Yeah, that's awesome yeah, that's something I've kind of it's like I've reached a point where It's like I only I only can eat Today, so it's like I've been trying like more olive oil or like a higher fat salad dressing or something there so I think that's definitely it's like a little bit more with like the Kind of core building blocks as far as meat and everything like that. I definitely can can lean in a little more there Yeah, and it's just a trade-off because again you said like I feel like I'm eating a lot like, okay There's a little bit of a decrease in quality of life when you're pushing a goal I mean, that's a yeah, right So so you got to ask yourself like is it worth it?

Do I want to do it? It's like you know what for the next three months Let me see what I can do You just make the portions bigger each time you eat and then see how that feels and if you're like, yeah I don't like it go back to what you were doing before but you're killing it. You're doing great Yeah, yeah, and it's been super fun, too. I I've loved I think both of these programs have been like way way different than it's like a squad and a bench press and it's definitely been kind of what I'm looking for and Like way more functional to as far as like my golf games gotten better It'll be fun to see how you train with this more like bilateral kind of focus And really see your strength increase because you're so reinforced now and like protect it around your joints It'd be I would be surprised if you weren't like hitting numbers You never see upper lower is more of a traditional bodybuilding.

Yeah split. Yeah, so it's gonna feel different But what you're gonna get our pumps Muscle shape sculpt, which is finally different focus will be great. It's also fun I mean, I love you adding this because when I look at what you've been running already It's like the perfect like if I could get a client to just run those programs every year Yeah, like you're you're touching it all, you know, that's that'll take you long ways Yeah, it's been great I definitely it's like When I have brought in some of the again like the traditional back squats and things like that that are in performance It's like wow, I feel so much better Having all of the stability and in these kind of unique ranges emotion.

So awesome We'll send that we'll send up or lower to you and I can't wait to hear I want to let us know how it goes Yeah, awesome. I appreciate it guys. Really excited to try it. Thank you That was awesome, yeah here so here's an example of a young woman below 20% Yeah, what she's communicating. I'm getting stronger. I feel good. I'm eating a lot hormones are good Cool There's no there's no reason to do anything Well this so and she said something I think is really key to is like even when she says she feels like she pushes the Calories her body still hovers run away and that's what a recomp looks like It looks like you push calories.

She builds a little muscle She also has probably a few days in there that she's a little lower on calories and then she leans out and so it's a It's a very healthy good place to be our next caller is Jessica from, Massachusetts. Jessica. Welcome back Guys how are you having me back? Yeah Also pre for warning I might have multiple children running into the room so just No worries, we're used to it. Okay. Okay. Perfect. Yep. Everybody should be napping but you guys know how that goes I do Thanks for having me back I appreciate it and it's been a good 60 days So that's been really good.

I think the update that I emailed in was just that after I talked with you guys I actually went and got a DEXA scan which was super informational and helpful. I think I needed those numbers And it came back pretty much saying the same thing you guys had said to I need to increase my calories my RMR was wicked low for What it should be for my age and activity level Which was a bummer but also a motivator because I don't want to be 70 years old eating a thousand calories and gaining weight So I really took what you guys said I've been trying to apply it slowly very slowly I've only made it up to 1900 calories But we're getting there and I think my big thing was consistency I realized that although my numbers I gave were my goal each day The actuality of me meeting them each day was probably 50 50 when I got really serious about like Really tracking every single bite I was like, wow, I'm not getting Meeting them as I thought I kind of was So it was super eye-opening.

Um so I've been that the increase of calories has been slow, but steady and just trying to kind of Keep it consistent if that makes sense. Yeah, totally Jessica how How scary has it been to bump your calories? I'm not gonna lie super scary. Yeah Intimidating my husband's had to be like a big motivator for me every day just to Accountability coach probably is the right word. Yeah, it's tough. It's really scary I'm so glad you said that you're honest about it because it's every day scary It's every meal scary And so it's not like oh I got to deal with this thing once a week.

It's like a oh, here we go breakfast Now it's time for now. It's time for and so it's this constant battle Are you? Doing it on your own is gonna be very very very difficult and what's gonna happen is what you've probably experienced which is 50-50 and what often happens in my experience with this 50-50 is it's like I do well and then I Make up for it on the other 50% of time and so it's like I'm okay but then now I'm gonna do it a little I'm gonna go a little lower than I normally would and So it ends up being the same what you're doing is you're managing it, you know Rather or it's managing you should I say rather than you managing it the solution and you mentioned your husband And he is your husband how many kids you guys have together we have three god bless you You got to outsource it to somebody and have them control it for you That's the only way and you have to literally go you tell me I'm just gonna do what you say and That and that's it because as long as you keep your hands on it, it's never gonna be It's always gonna be a big challenge for you.

So you could either be your husband now. I will caution you sometimes spouses can be the best and sometimes it can be the worst because if you It's really hard to stop being coach and then be husband And if it starts to cause issues in your marriage Then it's not worth it. And so what ends up happening sometimes is the spouse because look this isn't worth it I'm not gonna do this with you anymore We're fighting over it or whatever or they push too hard because because then now there's they have their Invested differently because it's like you're my wife and I love you The other thing the other way to do it would be to have an outside coach do it for you And then just let go And it's the letting go piece That's gonna solve this for you Okay, you have to let go long enough to you for you to realize it's okay to let go and that's probably gonna take a Year, it'll probably take a year of you letting go before you're like, I'm okay Have you been listening to the journey with Corinne and I?

slowly Have to say I've not been now that school is back in session. I'm hoping to kind of get back into listening to everything Yeah, that typically what we were just talking about that before we got on air how much our listens Skyrocket come September ish because everybody's kids are back in school now everybody can get back on to unlisting So it's wild how that felt follows that pattern. So yeah, so You know just and I want to share that with you just because here you have a brilliant coach She's our I arguably our best one of our best coaches And she still struggles with this.

We've been together now for almost a year you and her. Yeah doing this yeah, it's been almost a year and I'm sure she would openly admit with you It's still really hard and I still and so what I and what a coach knows to do and what I do with her is I push her And I push her as hard and as long as I can and we're constantly talking And I can kind of start to feel when it's really wearing on her and she's struggling with it and then I'm gonna just ask her I said hey, do you need a break and Sometimes she'll go.

No. No, I'm okay. Let's let's push through and other times. She'll say yeah This has been a really rough couple weeks and I'm going through it And can I can I get a little bit of break and then I'll pull her back and reliever of some of the the calorie push that we're doing and then and then let her kind of get Comfortable again, but how you doing? I'm doing good. I'm doing good feeling good. Okay good. Can I start to push you again? Yeah, yeah, okay, and then and it's a it's a push and pull There's no I don't have a blueprint of oh for this many weeks.

We do this and it's like it's a team effort and I'm constantly checking in with her on we're on a break right now Like we just I just had to relieve her I had been pushing her for a while on the calories We got all the way up to like the high 2600 plus and yeah And that's really high very very high for her and I had her there for a few weeks And she's just like man Adam. I'm really happy. I'm going through it. I'm having a hard time I said, okay, let's we'll pull back and so then I'll pull her back to more like 2100 22 and then we kind of do that and and again, there's no like Mathematical formula of what it looks like it's a lot of her and I working together through this process and over that time She's gotten more and more comfortable And the thing that always blows my mind when I'm helping someone like this because I haven't been coaching in a long time And so it's reopened my eyes with her just like it is wild to me How many everybody else is constantly telling her how amazing she looks and how good she's doing yet?

She doesn't see and feel her feel herself that way, you know, and so I get it. I get it I know it's hard, but the the value of Outsourcing that to somebody is is massive. And if this is something you really want to get through That would be my recommendation is look into you know One of our coaches helping you through something like that because I know I know how hard it can be. I Actually did hop on pretty quickly after I talked with you guys and scheduled a coaching appointment.

Yeah, and Had a really good chat with Robert. Yeah, I'm super awesome guy and we kind of decided and then my husband I decided Clearly I still have some things to work through in terms of my Relationship around food. So we kind of decided that my first step is starting therapy again Good going back to it good getting back in it Clearly needed at this time of life Have you gone have you done it? Yes. Oh wonderful. Yeah, good job. Good job Thank you. Good job.

No, no, very good. You're doing it. I'm not one to talk about my feelings. So This is definitely Another push for me, but I think it's a very healthy one And then my next step is once I kind of feel like my relationship gets better I want to invest in the coaching. I love that. I think that's a great I think it's a wonderful decision because what's great and you said something so important is that you're not one to share your feelings and That already is work that you're doing probably with a therapist as that you get more comfortable and good with that You'll be better.

You know, it'll you'll be better coached because because because that's what's great about a good coach is it's a little bit Of that too. Obviously, it's not just the macros numbers and the programming It's a lot of that and so the more comfortable you are with Sharing with the coach the better. They can be you better. They can coach you and so Wonderful wonderful step you are doing great two things just that now that I know that so I'm gonna give you two things that I've That I've seen that helps an experience, but also based on the data.

Okay, so two things number one Shane can play a nasty role and anything like this because this journey is going to be littered with Step-backs, that's just the way it is. There's gonna be nobody's ever gone on a journey To solve a challenge without there being setbacks. Everybody has them the challenge The real challenge is the shame especially when it's repeated like I thought I fixed that I thought I did that Like what did I do? Like what's going on? You have to completely give yourself grace and there's a cut There's one way you could do this Now if you have a faith then you can ask for grace from your creator good and he'll give it to you And so I say do that if that's you then then go in that I don't have to give you the part of it And yeah, I'm very faith-based good good Then you go there because you know, he gives it to you Okay, and there is no shame in in those of us who follow him.

So that's very very very important Here's a second thing. This is the data shows If we get we can get you know where we talk about our feelings and process things out But what we need to also do is have a sense of purpose Okay, that is not necessarily related to this goal And so sometimes what what the data shows what works oftentimes is that somebody says, okay, I have this new thing I'm gonna go after and I don't care what it is. It could be painting.

It could be You know riding my bike. It could be volunteer work It could be something But aim your direct aim towards something that gives you kind of this new sense of purpose a little bit and what the data shows is It makes therapy way more effective because sometimes what can happen with therapy is we get stuck in this Because it takes the focus off yourself. It is and what can happen is like I'm trying to out think, you know, for example if I go and talk about my depression I'm trying to talk my way out of depression and think about when there's an act part That is a big piece of this and so you just it could be anything.

It could be anything at all You're like, oh, you know what? I'm gonna start I'm gonna get into this kind of hobby And you just kind of focus on that a little bit it could be volunteer work, which that's one of my favorites I find when I serve Man, it's like other things start to kind of melt away So if you combine that with therapy now, you've got the like, you know Thought thinking talking empathizing and then some kind of action and it's not related It's not like I'm gonna owe this thing with my food or this thing on my fitness It's it could be so in fact It's supposed to take your thoughts off of that One of the things that can happen with some ruminate exactly as you can over Think the food thing where you're focused on it so much.

That's right And that could be just as unhealthy, right? And so something that brings you joy and gives you a little bit of purpose. I Think that's a great idea because I think during therapy you talk so much about food, but it does become yours. Yes Constant wheelhouse. Yes. Yes One of the things we've started doing is I meal prep Every single meal so it takes the thought of good food daily. Yeah. Yeah good But just to give you an illustration, so Arthur Brooks is did a really good Arthur I don't know.

Do you know Arthur Brooks is I feel like either you've said his name or I've heard it before We've had him on the podcast like three times. Awesome. Yeah, I suggest you follow him because he's very helpful He uses this great illustration. He takes a glass He says imagine this glass With a little bit of mud at the bottom and it's got water in it and you go to therapy and you stir the glass And so all this mud comes up in there constantly he goes the other another thing you could do is you could just start adding more clean water and eventually You the the dirt starts to come out and you start to get more clean water in the glass than just dirt So those are both the things so stirring the glass is the talking.

It's like, okay. What do I got to do now now? Okay, I'm done talking Let me have an action That gives me a little bit of joy and a little bit of purpose And so when you combine those two in the data, it makes the therapy so much more effect This is one of the reason why exercise is such a great A great combination with therapy. It just isn't great for those of us who are fitness fanatics If I go to a therapist and they tell me the exercise I'm be like, all right, let's go Very good.

Yeah, you're doing good But I am I'm hopeful that we can get through it as I've learned You think these you think you can move through it and it's gone forever, but it's not and kind of always yeah We'll always be there about how you manage it. So well you are you got you got a broken sinful flesh It's always gonna be there. So that's just that's the story for all of us. So at least you're aware of yours You're taking great steps already. You're doing a great job.

Keep us in the loop. We'll be there for you when you're ready Thank you so much guys. I really appreciate it. I just go have a good one. Hi Well, I'm so glad she's working with somebody. Yeah. Yeah. Well, I mean that would be The other step if you wouldn't allow one of my coaches and honestly, it's not a bad because she said something I think that's so important because even a great coach if You're not willing to share be honest and open up and coach you I can't coach you, right?

Which wouldn't the flipside Adam what I said about doing something? This is why coaching can be so effective if you're willing to share and be honest the coach gives you actions Yeah, yeah, they also empathize and can whatever they're not therapists But they'll give you grace and empathize our coaches are coached on grace because it's such an important part of coaching But then they give you an action. Yeah, so you've got this wonderful combination of like, okay This person understands and they're telling me to do something.

It's very effective Look, if you like the show come find us on Instagram. It's my pump media Thank you for listening to mind pump if your goal is to build and shape your body dramatically improve your health and energy and Maximize your overall performance. Check out our discounted RGB super bundle at mine pump media calm The RGB super bundle includes maps anabolic math performance and maps aesthetic nine months of phased expert exercise programming designed by Sal Adam and Justin to Systematically transform the way your body looks feels and performs with detailed workout blueprints and over 200 videos The RGB super bundle is like having Sal Adam and Justin as your own personal trainers But at a fraction of the price The RGB super bundle has a full 30-day money-back guarantee And you can get it now plus other valuable free resources at mine pump media calm if you enjoy this show Please share the love by leaving us a five-star rating and review on iTunes and by introducing mind pump to your friends and family We thank you for your support and until next time.

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