The Secret Government Playbook For A Bioweapon Attack - Annie Jacobsen

Last time we talked was about how we Last time we talked was about how we could blow ourselves to death. could blow ourselves to death. could blow ourselves to death. >> [gasps] >> [gasps] >> [gasps] >> And this time we're talking about how we >> And this time we're talking about how we >> And this time we're talking about how we could infect ourselves to death. could infect ourselves to death. could infect ourselves to death. Which one's scarier, nuclear war or Which one's scarier, nuclear war or Which one's scarier, nuclear war or biological war? biological war? biological war? >> It's equally scary in completely >> It's equally scary in completely >> It's equally scary in completely different ways. I think, you know, with different ways. I think, you know, with different ways. I think, you know, with nuclear war the response to that was so nuclear war the response to that was so nuclear war the response to that was so many people calling me up and saying many people calling me up and saying many people calling me up and saying like okay, I read your book. I just want like okay, I read your book. I just want like okay, I read your book. I just want to die instantly. to die instantly. to die instantly. Biological war is tricky and scary Biological war is tricky and scary Biological war is tricky and scary because you don't have to die instantly. because you don't have to die instantly. because you don't have to die instantly. And then you have to wonder I wish I And then you have to wonder I wish I And then you have to wonder I wish I did. did. did. That's the sort of bad news first. That's the sort of bad news first. That's the sort of bad news first. >> That Is there any good news with >> That Is there any good news with >> That Is there any good news with biological war? biological war? biological war? >> There is because >> There is because >> There is because it can be prevented. I mean, unlike it can be prevented. I mean, unlike it can be prevented. I mean, unlike nuclear war, which is like a just an nuclear war, which is like a just an nuclear war, which is like a just an event that happens without warning. It's event that happens without warning. It's event that happens without warning. It's literally called an event without literally called an event without literally called an event without warning. warning. warning. Biological war is event with warning. Biological war is event with warning. Biological war is event with warning. And that warning window it's literally And that warning window it's literally And that warning window it's literally like like like 12, 24, 36 hours max, but that is the 12, 24, 36 hours max, but that is the 12, 24, 36 hours max, but that is the window of time when something can be window of time when something can be window of time when something can be done. done. done. >> Why do you think biological warfare >> Why do you think biological warfare >> Why do you think biological warfare receives so little public attention receives so little public attention receives so little public attention compared with nuclear war? compared with nuclear war? compared with nuclear war? >> Yeah. I mean, terrific question. For >> Yeah. I mean, terrific question. For >> Yeah. I mean, terrific question. For starters, biological war is illegal. starters, biological war is illegal. starters, biological war is illegal. Biological weapons are illegal. And yet Biological weapons are illegal. And yet Biological weapons are illegal. And yet biological weapons exist, including now biological weapons exist, including now biological weapons exist, including now today, 21st century, genetically today, 21st century, genetically today, 21st century, genetically modified biological weapons for extreme modified biological weapons for extreme modified biological weapons for extreme transmission, hypervirulence transmission, hypervirulence transmission, hypervirulence and designed to defeat existing vaccines and designed to defeat existing vaccines and designed to defeat existing vaccines and countermeasures. and countermeasures. and countermeasures. But it's illegal, so no one has them But it's illegal, so no one has them But it's illegal, so no one has them except for they do. except for they do. except for they do. >> Mhm. >> Mhm. >> Mhm. Is there something about it being Is there something about it being Is there something about it being invisible as well? There's no smoke in invisible as well? There's no smoke in invisible as well? There's no smoke in the sky. the sky. the sky. >> I mean, that's what makes it incredibly >> I mean, that's what makes it incredibly >> I mean, that's what makes it incredibly sinister, I think. It's invisible, it's sinister, I think. It's invisible, it's sinister, I think. It's invisible, it's silent. And when you really just think silent. And when you really just think silent. And when you really just think of this simple idea that a a biological of this simple idea that a a biological of this simple idea that a a biological weapon, any pathogen really, is a living weapon, any pathogen really, is a living weapon, any pathogen really, is a living munition. munition. munition. It's alive. It's alive. It's alive. And it replicates. And it replicates. And it replicates. >> a mind of its own. >> a mind of its own. >> a mind of its own. >> And it's like with it's >> And it's like with it's >> And it's like with it's self-reproducing. self-reproducing. self-reproducing. And so, it's just go And so, it's just go And so, it's just go once it gets unleashed. once it gets unleashed. once it gets unleashed. >> Do you think bioweapons are the most >> Do you think bioweapons are the most >> Do you think bioweapons are the most underappreciated existential risks of underappreciated existential risks of underappreciated existential risks of the modern world? the modern world? the modern world? >> Well, I came across this chart in the >> Well, I came across this chart in the >> Well, I came across this chart in the DOD that really freaked me out when I DOD that really freaked me out when I DOD that really freaked me out when I was reading when I was working on was reading when I was working on was reading when I was working on nuclear war, and it's like the weapons nuclear war, and it's like the weapons nuclear war, and it's like the weapons of mass destruction WMD threat spectrum. of mass destruction WMD threat spectrum. of mass destruction WMD threat spectrum. And of course, nuclear weapons are like And of course, nuclear weapons are like And of course, nuclear weapons are like at the far end of the worst, most at the far end of the worst, most at the far end of the worst, most destructive. But biological weapons are destructive. But biological weapons are destructive. But biological weapons are a very close second, and even more a very close second, and even more a very close second, and even more frightening. They are considered the frightening. They are considered the frightening. They are considered the most likely to occur, and therefore the most likely to occur, and therefore the most likely to occur, and therefore the most dangerous. most dangerous. most dangerous. And this has to do with, you know, And this has to do with, you know, And this has to do with, you know, laboratories doing defensive research on laboratories doing defensive research on laboratories doing defensive research on biological biological biological weapon countermeasures. So, there This weapon countermeasures. So, there This weapon countermeasures. So, there This is where you get really into a lot of, is where you get really into a lot of, is where you get really into a lot of, you know, you know, you know, sort of catch-22, sort of catch-22, sort of catch-22, very politi- politicized debates, which very politi- politicized debates, which very politi- politicized debates, which we're going to stay away from and just we're going to stay away from and just we're going to stay away from and just talk about it as like a or at least I talk about it as like a or at least I talk about it as like a or at least I am, you know, because it should No one am, you know, because it should No one am, you know, because it should No one should be for biological war. should be for biological war. should be for biological war. >> What surprised you most about comparing >> What surprised you most about comparing >> What surprised you most about comparing the two, nuclear war and biowar? >> Well, equally shocked in in two lanes. >> Well, equally shocked in in two lanes. So, nuclear war, remember when Craig So, nuclear war, remember when Craig So, nuclear war, remember when Craig Fugate, who's Obama's former FEMA Fugate, who's Obama's former FEMA Fugate, who's Obama's former FEMA director, director, director, told me that told me that told me that there is no plan for population there is no plan for population there is no plan for population protection in the event of a strategic protection in the event of a strategic protection in the event of a strategic nuclear attack because everyone will be nuclear attack because everyone will be nuclear attack because everyone will be dead. I mean, that was stunning to me dead. I mean, that was stunning to me dead. I mean, that was stunning to me because this is coming from the guy in because this is coming from the guy in because this is coming from the guy in charge of it. charge of it. charge of it. Equally stunning is that is a plan Equally stunning is that is a plan Equally stunning is that is a plan for protection in the event of for protection in the event of for protection in the event of biological war, but it's not for the biological war, but it's not for the biological war, but it's not for the population. It's not for you and me. population. It's not for you and me. population. It's not for you and me. It's for the government. It's for a tiny It's for the government. It's for a tiny It's for the government. It's for a tiny group of government officials group of government officials group of government officials that will live out that will live out that will live out the attack or the incident. By the way, the attack or the incident. By the way, the attack or the incident. By the way, it doesn't have to be an attack. It can it doesn't have to be an attack. It can it doesn't have to be an attack. It can be an accident. be an accident. be an accident. But this is super creepy and people But this is super creepy and people But this is super creepy and people should definitely know about it and be should definitely know about it and be should definitely know about it and be very upset when they do. very upset when they do. very upset when they do. >> Let's Let's start to creep people out >> Let's Let's start to creep people out >> Let's Let's start to creep people out then. Starting at the beginning, how did then. Starting at the beginning, how did then. Starting at the beginning, how did we learn to engineer biotechnology? Like we learn to engineer biotechnology? Like we learn to engineer biotechnology? Like what what's the story there? what what's the story there? what what's the story there? >> Yeah. I mean, people talk about CRISPR >> Yeah. I mean, people talk about CRISPR >> Yeah. I mean, people talk about CRISPR now, you know, the CRISPR cast sort of now, you know, the CRISPR cast sort of now, you know, the CRISPR cast sort of gene editing. That's pretty much third gene editing. That's pretty much third gene editing. That's pretty much third or fourth generation gene editing. So, or fourth generation gene editing. So, or fourth generation gene editing. So, the the origin story of gene editing is the the origin story of gene editing is the the origin story of gene editing is 1971 1971 1971 in a laboratory in Stanford at Stanford in a laboratory in Stanford at Stanford in a laboratory in Stanford at Stanford University in Stanford, California. And University in Stanford, California. And University in Stanford, California. And the Nobel laureate named Paul Berg, he the Nobel laureate named Paul Berg, he the Nobel laureate named Paul Berg, he won the Nobel laureate for the work he won the Nobel laureate for the work he won the Nobel laureate for the work he did, figured out how to did, figured out how to did, figured out how to create what is called a chimera create what is called a chimera create what is called a chimera pathogen. So, mix chimera is like that pathogen. So, mix chimera is like that pathogen. So, mix chimera is like that ancient Greek idea of a monster made up ancient Greek idea of a monster made up ancient Greek idea of a monster made up of two different parts. of two different parts. of two different parts. And Berg figured out how to create And Berg figured out how to create And Berg figured out how to create recombinant DNA. That is the real recombinant DNA. That is the real recombinant DNA. That is the real fundamental word for gene editing. And fundamental word for gene editing. And fundamental word for gene editing. And that was way back in 1971. that was way back in 1971. that was way back in 1971. >> Recombinant recombining? >> Recombinant recombining? >> Recombinant recombining? >> Absolutely. >> Absolutely. >> Absolutely. >> Okay. It's just like >> Okay. It's just like >> Okay. It's just like >> It's just like it sounds. So much of >> It's just like it sounds. So much of >> It's just like it sounds. So much of this is just like it sounds. this is just like it sounds. this is just like it sounds. >> Okay. >> Okay. >> Okay. >> You know, and that's where it all began. >> You know, and that's where it all began. >> You know, and that's where it all began. And you know, then then there's And you know, then then there's And you know, then then there's the short and long version of how we got the short and long version of how we got the short and long version of how we got where we are now. where we are now. where we are now. >> What's the argument for doing genetic >> What's the argument for doing genetic >> What's the argument for doing genetic engineering? engineering? engineering? >> The argument, like all dual-use >> The argument, like all dual-use >> The argument, like all dual-use technology, is like you can use it to technology, is like you can use it to technology, is like you can use it to heal, you can use it to harm. I mean, heal, you can use it to harm. I mean, heal, you can use it to harm. I mean, this is true of every technology going this is true of every technology going this is true of every technology going back to when humans invented or back to when humans invented or back to when humans invented or discovered fire, discovered fire, discovered fire, right? You can like cook your meat and right? You can like cook your meat and right? You can like cook your meat and not get trichinosis, not get trichinosis, not get trichinosis, or you can burn down the next tribe's, or you can burn down the next tribe's, or you can burn down the next tribe's, you know, over. Um every every you know, over. Um every every you know, over. Um every every technology has that same component. And technology has that same component. And technology has that same component. And so with with bioengineering, the idea is so with with bioengineering, the idea is so with with bioengineering, the idea is and certainly now very specifically to and certainly now very specifically to and certainly now very specifically to where we are today is about where we are today is about where we are today is about okay, we we will work with dangerous okay, we we will work with dangerous okay, we we will work with dangerous pathogens pathogens pathogens to genetically modify them so that if a to genetically modify them so that if a to genetically modify them so that if a dangerous pathogen is released, we will dangerous pathogen is released, we will dangerous pathogen is released, we will know how to create a medical know how to create a medical know how to create a medical countermeasure for it. countermeasure for it. countermeasure for it. >> Mhm. Mhm. >> Mhm. Mhm. >> Mhm. Mhm. >> You see the chicken and the egg and the >> You see the chicken and the egg and the >> You see the chicken and the egg and the catch-22 there. catch-22 there. catch-22 there. >> and defense are contained within the >> and defense are contained within the >> and defense are contained within the same system. same system. same system. >> Absolutely. And this is where >> Absolutely. And this is where >> Absolutely. And this is where huge divides occur. And this is where huge divides occur. And this is where huge divides occur. And this is where the term called gain of function, which, the term called gain of function, which, the term called gain of function, which, you know, 99.99% you know, 99.99% you know, 99.99% of the planet had never heard of until of the planet had never heard of until of the planet had never heard of until the COVID pandemic, the COVID pandemic, the COVID pandemic, be- has now become such a hot button be- has now become such a hot button be- has now become such a hot button issue. Gain of function is literally issue. Gain of function is literally issue. Gain of function is literally like it sounds. You work to genetically like it sounds. You work to genetically like it sounds. You work to genetically modify a pathogen modify a pathogen modify a pathogen to give it new functions. to give it new functions. to give it new functions. To you know, so that it gains function. To you know, so that it gains function. To you know, so that it gains function. And the idea of that is that okay, just And the idea of that is that okay, just And the idea of that is that okay, just in case someone releases a biological in case someone releases a biological in case someone releases a biological weapon, we will know how to go up weapon, we will know how to go up weapon, we will know how to go up against it. And this is the big debate against it. And this is the big debate against it. And this is the big debate about COVID, which about COVID, which about COVID, which >> Do you think that COVID >> Do you think that COVID >> Do you think that COVID from a biological weapons biological weapons safety pandemic standpoint, safety pandemic standpoint, safety pandemic standpoint, do you think that was kind of an do you think that was kind of an do you think that was kind of an important thing to happen in some ways? important thing to happen in some ways? important thing to happen in some ways? Do you think it was a positive or a Do you think it was a positive or a Do you think it was a positive or a negative? negative? negative? >> I mean, that's you know, >> I mean, that's you know, >> I mean, that's you know, it did happen and here we are now. And I it did happen and here we are now. And I it did happen and here we are now. And I think that separate from what anyone think that separate from what anyone think that separate from what anyone thinks about, you know, thinks about, you know, thinks about, you know, natural origin versus lab leak. natural origin versus lab leak. natural origin versus lab leak. >> Mhm. >> Mhm. >> Mhm. >> The two most important lessons of COVID >> The two most important lessons of COVID >> The two most important lessons of COVID is one that we are extremely is one that we are extremely is one that we are extremely ill-prepared for a pandemic, despite the ill-prepared for a pandemic, despite the ill-prepared for a pandemic, despite the fact that in the US billions of dollars fact that in the US billions of dollars fact that in the US billions of dollars are spent every year are spent every year are spent every year to to to deal with exactly that kind of to to to deal with exactly that kind of to to to deal with exactly that kind of thing. Um thing. Um thing. Um that's the first lesson, and the second that's the first lesson, and the second that's the first lesson, and the second lesson is that lesson is that lesson is that the pandemic completely fractured the pandemic completely fractured the pandemic completely fractured public trust around science, around public trust around science, around public trust around science, around public health officials, public health officials, public health officials, >> Mhm. >> Mhm. >> Mhm. >> uh around politicians, and so this >> uh around politicians, and so this >> uh around politicians, and so this fracturing fracturing fracturing is incredibly dangerous, and I believe is incredibly dangerous, and I believe is incredibly dangerous, and I believe is also where the solution lies. I mean, is also where the solution lies. I mean, is also where the solution lies. I mean, that's like a real long stretch to try that's like a real long stretch to try that's like a real long stretch to try to get there, but it must happen because to get there, but it must happen because to get there, but it must happen because it is such a dangerous position. And if it is such a dangerous position. And if it is such a dangerous position. And if we really get into it and eventually we really get into it and eventually we really get into it and eventually talk about the Russians' biological talk about the Russians' biological talk about the Russians' biological weapons program of the Cold War, weapons program of the Cold War, weapons program of the Cold War, uh upon which some of the pathogen that uh upon which some of the pathogen that uh upon which some of the pathogen that gets deployed in my scenario is built, gets deployed in my scenario is built, gets deployed in my scenario is built, then you're really looking at the idea then you're really looking at the idea then you're really looking at the idea of Soviet Russia was to ruin Ameri- to of Soviet Russia was to ruin Ameri- to of Soviet Russia was to ruin Ameri- to gut America gut America gut America >> Mhm. >> Mhm. >> Mhm. >> by creating by fracturing public trust. >> by creating by fracturing public trust. >> by creating by fracturing public trust. >> The thing that's crazy, >> The thing that's crazy, >> The thing that's crazy, COVID feels really COVID feels really COVID feels really uh uh uh symbolic. symbolic. symbolic. I think of COVID is basically a vaccine I think of COVID is basically a vaccine I think of COVID is basically a vaccine that went wrong. COVID itself was a that went wrong. COVID itself was a that went wrong. COVID itself was a vaccine that went wrong cuz we could vaccine that went wrong cuz we could vaccine that went wrong cuz we could have been given the a small non-fatal have been given the a small non-fatal have been given the a small non-fatal dose of a future risk that would have dose of a future risk that would have dose of a future risk that would have alerted us to all of the ways that we alerted us to all of the ways that we alerted us to all of the ways that we were ill-prepared so that we could be were ill-prepared so that we could be were ill-prepared so that we could be better prepared for it in future. But better prepared for it in future. But better prepared for it in future. But because of the way that institutions and because of the way that institutions and because of the way that institutions and the medical industry and communication the medical industry and communication the medical industry and communication and lockdown and trust were all degraded and lockdown and trust were all degraded and lockdown and trust were all degraded and and and really really damaged, and and and really really damaged, and and and really really damaged, you're right, it's done two things at you're right, it's done two things at you're right, it's done two things at once. It's taught people what a super once. It's taught people what a super once. It's taught people what a super spreader event is. It helps us to spreader event is. It helps us to spreader event is. It helps us to understand the importance of masking and understand the importance of masking and understand the importance of masking and ventilators. It reminded us how ventilators. It reminded us how ventilators. It reminded us how ill-prepared we are. All of those things ill-prepared we are. All of those things ill-prepared we are. All of those things should prepare us better for the one in should prepare us better for the one in should prepare us better for the one in future. However, the current future. However, the current future. However, the current If there was a pandemic that got If there was a pandemic that got If there was a pandemic that got released tomorrow, released tomorrow, released tomorrow, the amount of pushback from the populace the amount of pushback from the populace the amount of pushback from the populace would be huge because nobody has trust would be huge because nobody has trust would be huge because nobody has trust for anymore. Uh Jared, can you for anymore. Uh Jared, can you for anymore. Uh Jared, can you do a search for me, please? Search um do a search for me, please? Search um do a search for me, please? Search um Toby Ord Toby Ord Toby Ord Ord, the precipice Ord, the precipice Ord, the precipice risk chart. risk chart. risk chart. It should be an image. And um It should be an image. And um It should be an image. And um this is the thing that's insane. The this is the thing that's insane. The this is the thing that's insane. The fact that we were so ill-prepared, I'm fact that we were so ill-prepared, I'm fact that we were so ill-prepared, I'm pretty sure that the precipice came out pretty sure that the precipice came out pretty sure that the precipice came out in 2019. in 2019. in 2019. Uh so, before COVID and it in order to Uh so, before COVID and it in order to Uh so, before COVID and it in order to write the book and to have the research write the book and to have the research write the book and to have the research and to be able to get to the stage where and to be able to get to the stage where and to be able to get to the stage where Yeah, top left. That's it. That's it. Yeah, top left. That's it. That's it. Yeah, top left. That's it. That's it. That's the one. Existential uh okay, That's the one. Existential uh okay, That's the one. Existential uh okay, catastrophic risk via asteroid, a comet, catastrophic risk via asteroid, a comet, catastrophic risk via asteroid, a comet, supervolcano, stellar explosion. So, supervolcano, stellar explosion. So, supervolcano, stellar explosion. So, natural risk. It says chance within the natural risk. It says chance within the natural risk. It says chance within the next 100 years, one in 10,000. That's next 100 years, one in 10,000. That's next 100 years, one in 10,000. That's over all of them. Stellar explosion is over all of them. Stellar explosion is over all of them. Stellar explosion is at one in a at one in a at one in a billion. One in a billion. Uh so, we we billion. One in a billion. Uh so, we we billion. One in a billion. Uh so, we we should be safe from that. Nuclear war, should be safe from that. Nuclear war, should be safe from that. Nuclear war, one in 1,000. Climate change, one in one in 1,000. Climate change, one in one in 1,000. Climate change, one in 1,000. Other environmental damage, one 1,000. Other environmental damage, one 1,000. Other environmental damage, one in 1,000. Naturally arising pandemics, in 1,000. Naturally arising pandemics, in 1,000. Naturally arising pandemics, one in 10,000. Now, we get into the real one in 10,000. Now, we get into the real one in 10,000. Now, we get into the real Engineered pandemics, one in 30 Engineered pandemics, one in 30 Engineered pandemics, one in 30 in the next 100 years. Unaligned in the next 100 years. Unaligned in the next 100 years. Unaligned artificial intelligence, one in 10. artificial intelligence, one in 10. artificial intelligence, one in 10. Unforeseen anthropogenic risks, one in Unforeseen anthropogenic risks, one in Unforeseen anthropogenic risks, one in 30. So, that's unknown unknowns. And 30. So, that's unknown unknowns. And 30. So, that's unknown unknowns. And other anthropogenic risks, that's a other anthropogenic risks, that's a other anthropogenic risks, that's a catch-all bucket. Total anthropogenic catch-all bucket. Total anthropogenic catch-all bucket. Total anthropogenic risk over the next 100 years, a one in risk over the next 100 years, a one in risk over the next 100 years, a one in six chance. And six chance. And six chance. And this is the difference between What was this is the difference between What was this is the difference between What was the word you used? Global the word you used? Global the word you used? Global >> catastrophic risk. >> catastrophic risk. >> catastrophic risk. >> Global cat- Okay, so the difference, I >> Global cat- Okay, so the difference, I >> Global cat- Okay, so the difference, I think, between global catastrophic risk think, between global catastrophic risk think, between global catastrophic risk and existential risk. So, existential and existential risk. So, existential and existential risk. So, existential risk is categorized as risk is categorized as risk is categorized as permanent permanent permanent >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> unrecoverable collapse. >> unrecoverable collapse. >> unrecoverable collapse. >> Hm. >> Hm. >> Hm. >> Permanent unrecoverable collapse cuz >> Permanent unrecoverable collapse cuz >> Permanent unrecoverable collapse cuz nuclear war is a proper ex-risk. It's nuclear war is a proper ex-risk. It's nuclear war is a proper ex-risk. It's usually pretty easy to recover from. usually pretty easy to recover from. usually pretty easy to recover from. There is a way that you can recover from There is a way that you can recover from There is a way that you can recover from it as a it as a it as a as a civilization. Like to get everybody as a civilization. Like to get everybody as a civilization. Like to get everybody with nuclear weapons, there would need with nuclear weapons, there would need with nuclear weapons, there would need to be sun in the sky, there would need to be sun in the sky, there would need to be sun in the sky, there would need to be cuz you only need like to be cuz you only need like to be cuz you only need like 500 or 1,000 humans and then you're able 500 or 1,000 humans and then you're able 500 or 1,000 humans and then you're able to come back. to come back. to come back. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> The bioweapon thing is even scarier >> The bioweapon thing is even scarier >> The bioweapon thing is even scarier because that is able to make every because that is able to make every because that is able to make every person It is a bullet with like second person It is a bullet with like second person It is a bullet with like second self-replicate. self-replicate. self-replicate. >> I wrote biological war a scenario, not >> I wrote biological war a scenario, not >> I wrote biological war a scenario, not biological war the only scenario. And in biological war the only scenario. And in biological war the only scenario. And in my acknowledgements part of the book, I my acknowledgements part of the book, I my acknowledgements part of the book, I mention how in some of my interviews, mention how in some of my interviews, mention how in some of my interviews, and I'm talking about like with David and I'm talking about like with David and I'm talking about like with David Relman, sort of top-level White House Relman, sort of top-level White House Relman, sort of top-level White House advisor advisor advisor to many presidents, told me about to many presidents, told me about to many presidents, told me about pathogens that literally can do exactly pathogens that literally can do exactly pathogens that literally can do exactly that. And I made that decision not to go that. And I made that decision not to go that. And I made that decision not to go with with with that kind of a threat. Although, you that kind of a threat. Although, you that kind of a threat. Although, you know, the case fatality rate of the know, the case fatality rate of the know, the case fatality rate of the plague weapon that is engineered in the plague weapon that is engineered in the plague weapon that is engineered in the scenario I write is 100% case fatality scenario I write is 100% case fatality scenario I write is 100% case fatality rate. So, if you get it, you die. rate. So, if you get it, you die. rate. So, if you get it, you die. >> Okay. >> Okay. >> Okay. >> But there are >> But there are >> But there are I I won't get too far ahead of the I I won't get too far ahead of the I I won't get too far ahead of the weeds, but that chart is amazing and it weeds, but that chart is amazing and it weeds, but that chart is amazing and it really really really is kind of on point of what we're is kind of on point of what we're is kind of on point of what we're talking about here. And I love your talking about here. And I love your talking about here. And I love your analogy that COVID is analogy that COVID is analogy that COVID is theoretically or philosophically theoretically or philosophically theoretically or philosophically >> Yes. >> Yes. >> Yes. >> a a you know, sort of a medical >> a a you know, sort of a medical >> a a you know, sort of a medical countermeasure gone wrong. countermeasure gone wrong. countermeasure gone wrong. >> Correct. >> Correct. >> Correct. >> it is. Because it if you think about it >> it is. Because it if you think about it >> it is. Because it if you think about it as a it was a poison of the mind as as a it was a poison of the mind as as a it was a poison of the mind as well. It could have been a cautionary well. It could have been a cautionary well. It could have been a cautionary tale. The case fatality rate on COVID tale. The case fatality rate on COVID tale. The case fatality rate on COVID was one in a hundred. That is a lot of was one in a hundred. That is a lot of was one in a hundred. That is a lot of people died, but that's not at the level people died, but that's not at the level people died, but that's not at the level of what an engineered pathogen is. Most of what an engineered pathogen is. Most of what an engineered pathogen is. Most bioengineered pathogens are designed to bioengineered pathogens are designed to bioengineered pathogens are designed to move toward 100% case fatality rate. If move toward 100% case fatality rate. If move toward 100% case fatality rate. If you get it, you die. you get it, you die. you get it, you die. >> Who were the first people to start using >> Who were the first people to start using >> Who were the first people to start using this as a weapon? Because obviously this as a weapon? Because obviously this as a weapon? Because obviously you've got recombinant DNA. you've got recombinant DNA. you've got recombinant DNA. We've opened up this entire world, this We've opened up this entire world, this We've opened up this entire world, this technology. Who were the first people to technology. Who were the first people to technology. Who were the first people to really turn it on an industrial scale really turn it on an industrial scale really turn it on an industrial scale into becoming a into becoming a into becoming a weaponized threat? weaponized threat? weaponized threat? >> That was the Soviets, right? So, backing >> That was the Soviets, right? So, backing >> That was the Soviets, right? So, backing up one First of all, in the Cold War, up one First of all, in the Cold War, up one First of all, in the Cold War, we had biological weapons programs. The we had biological weapons programs. The we had biological weapons programs. The US had a robust biological weapons US had a robust biological weapons US had a robust biological weapons program, offensive and defensive. I've program, offensive and defensive. I've program, offensive and defensive. I've written about it in other books. So did written about it in other books. So did written about it in other books. So did Russia, Russia, Russia, uh the Soviet Union. uh the Soviet Union. uh the Soviet Union. In 1969, President Nixon renounced In 1969, President Nixon renounced In 1969, President Nixon renounced America's biological weapons program America's biological weapons program America's biological weapons program entirely for reasons that are debated, entirely for reasons that are debated, entirely for reasons that are debated, doesn't matter. That was it, it's over, doesn't matter. That was it, it's over, doesn't matter. That was it, it's over, destroy them all. Took 219 weeks to destroy them all. Took 219 weeks to destroy them all. Took 219 weeks to destroy. destroy. destroy. A treaty was signed around the world, A treaty was signed around the world, A treaty was signed around the world, the BWC, Biological Weapons Convention the BWC, Biological Weapons Convention the BWC, Biological Weapons Convention Treaty. Treaty. Treaty. Biological weapons are too dangerous. Biological weapons are too dangerous. Biological weapons are too dangerous. They're called repugnant to the They're called repugnant to the They're called repugnant to the conscience of mankind in the preamble, conscience of mankind in the preamble, conscience of mankind in the preamble, right? So, it's this very lofty idea right? So, it's this very lofty idea right? So, it's this very lofty idea that like, you know, we will not do that like, you know, we will not do that like, you know, we will not do this. And everybody signed the treaty. this. And everybody signed the treaty. this. And everybody signed the treaty. And And And >> Including the Soviets. >> Including the Soviets. >> Including the Soviets. >> Including the Soviets. >> Including the Soviets. >> Including the Soviets. Soviets. Soviets. Soviets. >> And And now we know because of a >> And And now we know because of a >> And And now we know because of a defector, and I get into this in the defector, and I get into this in the defector, and I get into this in the book because it's very interesting. I book because it's very interesting. I book because it's very interesting. I interviewed the British interviewed the British interviewed the British um intelligence officer who um intelligence officer who um intelligence officer who first found out about the whole Soviet first found out about the whole Soviet first found out about the whole Soviet program. Not until the late '80s program. Not until the late '80s program. Not until the late '80s did America did the CIA did British did America did the CIA did British did America did the CIA did British intel have any idea that the Soviets had intel have any idea that the Soviets had intel have any idea that the Soviets had this colossal program. They stole our this colossal program. They stole our this colossal program. They stole our recombinant DNA technology. recombinant DNA technology. recombinant DNA technology. I mean, good old IP theft back in the in I mean, good old IP theft back in the in I mean, good old IP theft back in the in the '70s. And they the '70s. And they the '70s. And they >> China of the '70s. >> China of the '70s. >> China of the '70s. >> And they began this biological weapons >> And they began this biological weapons >> And they began this biological weapons program. They called it our Manhattan program. They called it our Manhattan program. They called it our Manhattan Project. And we had no idea. Now bring Project. And we had no idea. Now bring Project. And we had no idea. Now bring us to the present day, just to deal with us to the present day, just to deal with us to the present day, just to deal with some facts about who has biological some facts about who has biological some facts about who has biological weapons. weapons. weapons. According to the State Department, According to the State Department, According to the State Department, Russia has a biological weapons program. Russia has a biological weapons program. Russia has a biological weapons program. This is on the record and this is a This is on the record and this is a This is on the record and this is a pretty big deal. And their position is pretty big deal. And their position is pretty big deal. And their position is that the Soviet program was not that the Soviet program was not that the Soviet program was not dismantled as had been promised when the dismantled as had been promised when the dismantled as had been promised when the wall came down, but rather wall came down, but rather wall came down, but rather absorbed. absorbed. absorbed. And the State Department has the same And the State Department has the same And the State Department has the same position about North North Korea that position about North North Korea that position about North North Korea that they have a robust biological weapons they have a robust biological weapons they have a robust biological weapons program. program. program. And then their position on China and And then their position on China and And then their position on China and Iran is they are questionable, which is Iran is they are questionable, which is Iran is they are questionable, which is like euphemism subtext for they have like euphemism subtext for they have like euphemism subtext for they have biological weapons programs. biological weapons programs. biological weapons programs. >> But the State Department admitted to >> But the State Department admitted to >> But the State Department admitted to having them themselves? having them themselves? having them themselves? >> We do not have a biological weapons >> We do not have a biological weapons >> We do not have a biological weapons program. program. program. >> How much do you believe that? >> How much do you believe that? >> How much do you believe that? >> Officially. >> Officially. >> Officially. Officially, but but [laughter] what Officially, but but [laughter] what Officially, but but [laughter] what Okay, but well, Okay, but well, Okay, but well, let me just say this. What we do have let me just say this. What we do have let me just say this. What we do have and what we have had in the past is a and what we have had in the past is a and what we have had in the past is a defensive program. defensive program. defensive program. And so I've interviewed I interview some And so I've interviewed I interview some And so I've interviewed I interview some really interesting people for this book, really interesting people for this book, really interesting people for this book, including like the top dogs in this including like the top dogs in this including like the top dogs in this world, okay? And and people who run war world, okay? And and people who run war world, okay? And and people who run war games at the Pentagon for how this would games at the Pentagon for how this would games at the Pentagon for how this would go down. And most people in the business go down. And most people in the business go down. And most people in the business of preventing biological war of preventing biological war of preventing biological war in the United States believe that gain in the United States believe that gain in the United States believe that gain of function is evil. That word was used of function is evil. That word was used of function is evil. That word was used with me. And and and have also said gain with me. And and and have also said gain with me. And and and have also said gain of function is a euphemism for of function is a euphemism for of function is a euphemism for biological weapons engineering. biological weapons engineering. biological weapons engineering. >> How many people are opposed to enhanced >> How many people are opposed to enhanced >> How many people are opposed to enhanced interrogation and yet Guantanamo Bay interrogation and yet Guantanamo Bay interrogation and yet Guantanamo Bay still happened? You know, I I I think still happened? You know, I I I think still happened? You know, I I I think what what what And this this speaks to the the the lack And this this speaks to the the the lack And this this speaks to the the the lack of trust, right? In in in in government of trust, right? In in in in government of trust, right? In in in in government that that that And also there's a bit of me that thinks And also there's a bit of me that thinks And also there's a bit of me that thinks I want to be on the side that has them. I want to be on the side that has them. I want to be on the side that has them. I don't want to be on the side that I don't want to be on the side that I don't want to be on the side that doesn't have them. I'm aware that there doesn't have them. I'm aware that there doesn't have them. I'm aware that there can be lab leaks. I'm aware BSL-3 and 2 can be lab leaks. I'm aware BSL-3 and 2 can be lab leaks. I'm aware BSL-3 and 2 and and and you know, you you know, you you know, you >> Mhm. >> If one guy's got a gun, I want a gun. >> If one guy's got a gun, I want a gun. >> [gasps] >> [gasps] >> [gasps] >> The issue with the biological weapons is >> The issue with the biological weapons is >> The issue with the biological weapons is that that that nuclear weapons nuclear weapons nuclear weapons take out biological weapons. take out biological weapons. take out biological weapons. >> Mhm. >> Mhm. >> Mhm. >> Nuclear weapons and in fact, there are >> Nuclear weapons and in fact, there are >> Nuclear weapons and in fact, there are secretive This is This is not any secretive This is This is not any secretive This is This is not any reporting classified information. This reporting classified information. This reporting classified information. This is any is any is any speculating in the affirmative. I'm not speculating in the affirmative. I'm not speculating in the affirmative. I'm not going to put the nose on. I'm going to going to put the nose on. I'm going to going to put the nose on. I'm going to go go full with this, right? No, no, no. go go full with this, right? No, no, no. go go full with this, right? No, no, no. I mean This is like I mean This is like I mean This is like um um um So, new There have been moments when So, new There have been moments when So, new There have been moments when there have been leaks there have been leaks there have been leaks that is understood that the Defense that is understood that the Defense that is understood that the Defense Department is trying to get a Department is trying to get a Department is trying to get a presidential emergency directive to be presidential emergency directive to be presidential emergency directive to be allowed to use nuclear weapons allowed to use nuclear weapons allowed to use nuclear weapons preemptively preemptively preemptively >> Mhm. >> Mhm. >> Mhm. >> against a biological a known biological >> against a biological a known biological >> against a biological a known biological weapons facility. And whenever this gets weapons facility. And whenever this gets weapons facility. And whenever this gets leaked, it causes an uproar. So, leaked, it causes an uproar. So, leaked, it causes an uproar. So, I would assume, given what I know about I would assume, given what I know about I would assume, given what I know about national security, that that national security, that that national security, that that that directive still exists. that directive still exists. that directive still exists. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> And the reason why that exists, people >> And the reason why that exists, people >> And the reason why that exists, people say, "Well, why wouldn't you just take say, "Well, why wouldn't you just take say, "Well, why wouldn't you just take it out with conventional explosives?" it out with conventional explosives?" it out with conventional explosives?" Conventional explosives have this Conventional explosives have this Conventional explosives have this strange effect on germ labs whereby the strange effect on germ labs whereby the strange effect on germ labs whereby the explosion explosion explosion >> It just atomizes it. >> It just atomizes it. >> It just atomizes it. >> push it and it pushes it out faster. So, >> push it and it pushes it out faster. So, >> push it and it pushes it out faster. So, it goes You see, so it's non-effective. it goes You see, so it's non-effective. it goes You see, so it's non-effective. >> to incinerate it. >> to incinerate it. >> to incinerate it. >> And the nuclear >> And the nuclear >> And the nuclear weapon has a temperature that weapon has a temperature that weapon has a temperature that incinerates it and a speed. incinerates it and a speed. incinerates it and a speed. >> Yeah. Most people don't realize how much >> Yeah. Most people don't realize how much >> Yeah. 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During sieges, they would put about. During sieges, they would put dead bodies and refuse and diseased dead bodies and refuse and diseased dead bodies and refuse and diseased animals into the water supply of a animals into the water supply of a animals into the water supply of a castle. So, it's not like this is castle. So, it's not like this is castle. So, it's not like this is something that's new. Catapulting, something that's new. Catapulting, something that's new. Catapulting, trebucheting, trebucheting, trebucheting, diseased animals over the walls to see diseased animals over the walls to see diseased animals over the walls to see if they can send germ They understood if they can send germ They understood if they can send germ They understood the not maybe the mechanism, but they the not maybe the mechanism, but they the not maybe the mechanism, but they understood the outcome, which is these understood the outcome, which is these understood the outcome, which is these people are going to consume this if we people are going to consume this if we people are going to consume this if we put stuff in that's put stuff in that's put stuff in that's dirty or something, infected in some dirty or something, infected in some dirty or something, infected in some way. way. way. It might hurt them. So, it's not a new It might hurt them. So, it's not a new It might hurt them. So, it's not a new in terms of idea, it's only new in terms in terms of idea, it's only new in terms in terms of idea, it's only new in terms of sophistication. of sophistication. of sophistication. >> The sophistication component when it >> The sophistication component when it >> The sophistication component when it comes to comes to comes to genetic engineering is what's so genetic engineering is what's so genetic engineering is what's so dangerous because dangerous because dangerous because it only takes a minute, hopefully it only takes a minute, hopefully it only takes a minute, hopefully reading my book or just having this kind reading my book or just having this kind reading my book or just having this kind of conversation to get to the real heart of conversation to get to the real heart of conversation to get to the real heart of the matter with your X risk with and of the matter with your X risk with and of the matter with your X risk with and what the Defense Department calls a near what the Defense Department calls a near what the Defense Department calls a near extinction-level event. That's, you extinction-level event. That's, you extinction-level event. That's, you know, nuclear is different. That's like know, nuclear is different. That's like know, nuclear is different. That's like extinction-level events. So, we differ extinction-level events. So, we differ extinction-level events. So, we differ on that. But, biological is near on that. But, biological is near on that. But, biological is near extinction. That group of government extinction. That group of government extinction. That group of government officials is going to stay alive officials is going to stay alive officials is going to stay alive according to planning. according to planning. according to planning. But, the difference um in that is that, But, the difference um in that is that, But, the difference um in that is that, you know, biological weapons are once you know, biological weapons are once you know, biological weapons are once they they they propagate, there's no stopping them. And propagate, there's no stopping them. And propagate, there's no stopping them. And the number one reason is airborne. the number one reason is airborne. the number one reason is airborne. >> Mhm. >> Mhm. >> Mhm. >> Airborne. So, many different pathogens >> Airborne. So, many different pathogens >> Airborne. So, many different pathogens Ebola, Ebola, Ebola, they're not airborne. But if something's they're not airborne. But if something's they're not airborne. But if something's airborne, you and I are talking, airborne, you and I are talking, airborne, you and I are talking, we're both infected. we're both infected. we're both infected. >> What are the elements of the perfect >> What are the elements of the perfect >> What are the elements of the perfect biological weapon? biological weapon? biological weapon? >> Airborne is number one. >> Airborne is number one. >> Airborne is number one. >> Okay. >> Okay. >> Okay. >> Number one. >> Number one. >> Number one. >> transition. >> transition. >> transition. >> Number one. >> Number one. >> Number one. >> Transmission. >> Transmission. >> Transmission. >> 100% transmission. So, what's >> 100% transmission. So, what's >> 100% transmission. So, what's interesting about COVID, and I just use interesting about COVID, and I just use interesting about COVID, and I just use this sometimes as a great example this sometimes as a great example this sometimes as a great example because everybody was remembers COVID, because everybody was remembers COVID, because everybody was remembers COVID, those of us that, you know, lived those of us that, you know, lived those of us that, you know, lived through it, that aren't a baby. through it, that aren't a baby. through it, that aren't a baby. Um Um Um and and and there was for the first 3 months of there was for the first 3 months of there was for the first 3 months of COVID, the WHO was sending out tweets COVID, the WHO was sending out tweets COVID, the WHO was sending out tweets that said COVID is not airborne, not in that said COVID is not airborne, not in that said COVID is not airborne, not in full capital letters. full capital letters. full capital letters. They believed They believed They believed that COVID was transmissible that COVID was transmissible that COVID was transmissible through, you know, me passing this to through, you know, me passing this to through, you know, me passing this to you, and it's called a called a fomite. you, and it's called a called a fomite. you, and it's called a called a fomite. Not how it's not how it works. Not how it's not how it works. Not how it's not how it works. >> Some >> Some >> Some pathogens are. pathogens are. pathogens are. >> Some pathogens are. Absolutely. >> Some pathogens are. Absolutely. >> Some pathogens are. Absolutely. >> But COVID wasn't. >> But COVID wasn't. >> But COVID wasn't. >> But COVID wasn't. And they >> But COVID wasn't. And they >> But COVID wasn't. And they were convinced it wasn't airborne, and were convinced it wasn't airborne, and were convinced it wasn't airborne, and it was airborne. There was 8,000 people it was airborne. There was 8,000 people it was airborne. There was 8,000 people already with COVID before the WHO made already with COVID before the WHO made already with COVID before the WHO made made us change that statement. And this made us change that statement. And this made us change that statement. And this they were not doing it they were not doing it they were not doing it to be nefarious. to be nefarious. to be nefarious. They were doing it because they didn't They were doing it because they didn't They were doing it because they didn't know. There is so much uncertainty know. There is so much uncertainty know. There is so much uncertainty >> Mhm. >> Mhm. >> Mhm. >> in biology. So much uncertainty. It's >> in biology. So much uncertainty. It's >> in biology. So much uncertainty. It's probably part of the reason why the US probably part of the reason why the US probably part of the reason why the US got rid of its biological weapons got rid of its biological weapons got rid of its biological weapons program. The Defense Department likes to program. The Defense Department likes to program. The Defense Department likes to know. You can measure how many people know. You can measure how many people know. You can measure how many people you're going to kill with a bomb. you're going to kill with a bomb. you're going to kill with a bomb. It's called a circular damage It's called a circular damage It's called a circular damage issue, and you don't know with biology. issue, and you don't know with biology. issue, and you don't know with biology. And so, the Defense Department, if they And so, the Defense Department, if they And so, the Defense Department, if they can't control it, they don't like it. can't control it, they don't like it. can't control it, they don't like it. >> Mhm. >> Mhm. >> Mhm. I don't remember people were wiping down I don't remember people were wiping down I don't remember people were wiping down Amazon parcels. There was even a a rule Amazon parcels. There was even a a rule Amazon parcels. There was even a a rule added into pickleball where you you added into pickleball where you you added into pickleball where you you could do a paddle serve. So, as the ball could do a paddle serve. So, as the ball could do a paddle serve. So, as the ball came toward you, you could scoop it up came toward you, you could scoop it up came toward you, you could scoop it up on the paddle, on the paddle, on the paddle, flick it in the air, and hit it because flick it in the air, and hit it because flick it in the air, and hit it because people were that worried that maybe the people were that worried that maybe the people were that worried that maybe the other person had picked the ball up. And other person had picked the ball up. And other person had picked the ball up. And if I picked the ball up, and then it So, if I picked the ball up, and then it So, if I picked the ball up, and then it So, So, uh okay. So, elements of the perfect So, uh okay. So, elements of the perfect So, uh okay. So, elements of the perfect biological weapon. First one is it's biological weapon. First one is it's biological weapon. First one is it's airborne. airborne. airborne. >> Yes, transmissibility. >> Yes, transmissibility. >> Yes, transmissibility. >> Transmissibility is airborne. What else? >> Transmissibility is airborne. What else? >> Transmissibility is airborne. What else? What what what How else would it be What what what How else would it be What what what How else would it be constituted? constituted? constituted? >> Virulence, right? So, it's it's case >> Virulence, right? So, it's it's case >> Virulence, right? So, it's it's case fatality rate. fatality rate. fatality rate. COVID, as we said earlier, 1%. So, 100 COVID, as we said earlier, 1%. So, 100 COVID, as we said earlier, 1%. So, 100 people get COVID, one dies. people get COVID, one dies. people get COVID, one dies. That's a pretty low case That's a pretty low case That's a pretty low case case fatality rate. Hantavirus, recently case fatality rate. Hantavirus, recently case fatality rate. Hantavirus, recently in the news. in the news. in the news. Um Um Um high 30% high 30% high 30% case fatality rate. So, that's a lot of case fatality rate. So, that's a lot of case fatality rate. So, that's a lot of people. If you Right, the flu the people. If you Right, the flu the people. If you Right, the flu the seasonal flu, by the way, is seasonal flu, by the way, is seasonal flu, by the way, is 0.1%. 0.1%. 0.1%. Pneumonic plague. Pneumonic plague. Pneumonic plague. >> What's that? >> What's that? >> What's that? >> Which Okay, we you know, we all know >> Which Okay, we you know, we all know >> Which Okay, we you know, we all know bubonic plague. bubonic plague. bubonic plague. Pneumonic plague is the aerosolized Pneumonic plague is the aerosolized Pneumonic plague is the aerosolized version of bubonic plague. Bubonic version of bubonic plague. Bubonic version of bubonic plague. Bubonic plague, a flea plague, a flea plague, a flea from an infected flea bites you, you get from an infected flea bites you, you get from an infected flea bites you, you get bubonic plague. Pneumonic plague, it gets into your Pneumonic plague, it gets into your lungs, and it becomes aerosolized. lungs, and it becomes aerosolized. lungs, and it becomes aerosolized. Pneumonic plague has a case fatality Pneumonic plague has a case fatality Pneumonic plague has a case fatality rate of 100%. rate of 100%. rate of 100%. Unless you get antibiotics into your Unless you get antibiotics into your Unless you get antibiotics into your system system system within 24 hours. Not 25 hours. within 24 hours. Not 25 hours. within 24 hours. Not 25 hours. First 24 hours, you get antibiotics, you First 24 hours, you get antibiotics, you First 24 hours, you get antibiotics, you have a chance at living. If you don't, have a chance at living. If you don't, have a chance at living. If you don't, you die 100%. 100%. you die 100%. 100%. you die 100%. 100%. >> What's the incubation period of >> What's the incubation period of >> What's the incubation period of pneumonic plague? pneumonic plague? pneumonic plague? >> The natural incubation period is between >> The natural incubation period is between >> The natural incubation period is between 1 and 3 days. Sometimes 1 and 3 days. Sometimes 1 and 3 days. Sometimes five. Again, this is there's so much five. Again, this is there's so much five. Again, this is there's so much ambiguity in Mother Nature. ambiguity in Mother Nature. ambiguity in Mother Nature. Genetically modified plague Genetically modified plague Genetically modified plague one day. one day. one day. So, imagine a situation where This is So, imagine a situation where This is So, imagine a situation where This is what I This is the the pathogen that I what I This is the the pathogen that I what I This is the the pathogen that I choose in the scenario because it is choose in the scenario because it is choose in the scenario because it is what the Defense Department, FEMA, what the Defense Department, FEMA, what the Defense Department, FEMA, HHS, CDC, WHO is probably the most HHS, CDC, WHO is probably the most HHS, CDC, WHO is probably the most afraid of. It's called a afraid of. It's called a afraid of. It's called a select It's called a tier one select select It's called a tier one select select It's called a tier one select agent. agent. agent. It's the one of the most likely to be It's the one of the most likely to be It's the one of the most likely to be used. used. used. And it's a 100% And it's a 100% And it's a 100% And now imagine And now imagine And now imagine if you could genetically modify that to if you could genetically modify that to if you could genetically modify that to evade cure. So, imagine if antibiotics evade cure. So, imagine if antibiotics evade cure. So, imagine if antibiotics no longer work. no longer work. no longer work. And what I'm saying may sound like And what I'm saying may sound like And what I'm saying may sound like science fiction horror, except for it's science fiction horror, except for it's science fiction horror, except for it's precisely precisely precisely what was at the center of that Soviet what was at the center of that Soviet what was at the center of that Soviet biological weapons program biological weapons program biological weapons program of the '70s and '80s that we talked of the '70s and '80s that we talked of the '70s and '80s that we talked about a moment ago. about a moment ago. about a moment ago. >> That's what they were engineering. >> That's what they were engineering. >> That's what they were engineering. >> They were engineering a super plague >> They were engineering a super plague >> They were engineering a super plague weapon. weapon. weapon. >> Did they achieve it? >> Did they achieve it? >> Did they achieve it? >> Questionable. But that Think of how many >> Questionable. But that Think of how many >> Questionable. But that Think of how many decades ago. They didn't do it then, decades ago. They didn't do it then, decades ago. They didn't do it then, they certainly have done it now. Here's they certainly have done it now. Here's they certainly have done it now. Here's was the exact line from Dr. Christopher was the exact line from Dr. Christopher was the exact line from Dr. Christopher Davis, who interviewed the first Russian Davis, who interviewed the first Russian Davis, who interviewed the first Russian defector who told him about the super defector who told him about the super defector who told him about the super plague weapon. He said, plague weapon. He said, plague weapon. He said, "They wanted to kill "They wanted to kill "They wanted to kill Thinking of the Soviets planning a Thinking of the Soviets planning a Thinking of the Soviets planning a biological weapons attack against biological weapons attack against biological weapons attack against America, America, America, they wanted to kill all the people and they wanted to kill all the people and they wanted to kill all the people and leave the infrastructure leave the infrastructure leave the infrastructure intact." intact." intact." >> Which you don't get with nukes. You get >> Which you don't get with nukes. You get >> Which you don't get with nukes. You get rid of the people, but you also have to rid of the people, but you also have to rid of the people, but you also have to rebuild the city. rebuild the city. rebuild the city. >> Imagine just taking all the people out >> Imagine just taking all the people out >> Imagine just taking all the people out and just marching in and everything that and just marching in and everything that and just marching in and everything that was theirs is now yours. was theirs is now yours. was theirs is now yours. >> Mhm. >> Mhm. >> Mhm. Yeah, it's just like pressing a delete Yeah, it's just like pressing a delete Yeah, it's just like pressing a delete button on all of the humans. I mean, you button on all of the humans. I mean, you button on all of the humans. I mean, you got to get rid of the bodies, but that's got to get rid of the bodies, but that's got to get rid of the bodies, but that's a small price to pay. a small price to pay. a small price to pay. >> Mhm. If you wait long enough, they sort >> Mhm. If you wait long enough, they sort >> Mhm. If you wait long enough, they sort of disintegrate. of disintegrate. of disintegrate. >> What was the goal of the Soviet >> What was the goal of the Soviet >> What was the goal of the Soviet scientists? Do you think it was scientists? Do you think it was scientists? Do you think it was primarily casualties or something more primarily casualties or something more primarily casualties or something more psychological? psychological? psychological? >> Very good question. It was actually >> Very good question. It was actually >> Very good question. It was actually both. It was a twofold idea. It was both. It was a twofold idea. It was both. It was a twofold idea. It was this create this mass death that we're this create this mass death that we're this create this mass death that we're talking about. And remember, talking about. And remember, talking about. And remember, maybe not the Soviet scientist, it was maybe not the Soviet scientist, it was maybe not the Soviet scientist, it was the Politburo, the sort of planners the Politburo, the sort of planners the Politburo, the sort of planners behind it, the military, the Soviet behind it, the military, the Soviet behind it, the military, the Soviet officials that just hated the their officials that just hated the their officials that just hated the their American enemies so much that they came American enemies so much that they came American enemies so much that they came up with the most diabolical plan up with the most diabolical plan up with the most diabolical plan possible. And it was exactly that. It possible. And it was exactly that. It possible. And it was exactly that. It was just kill everyone, but also create was just kill everyone, but also create was just kill everyone, but also create such mistrust within such mistrust within such mistrust within the medical establishment. They wanted the medical establishment. They wanted the medical establishment. They wanted to outfox antibiotics, which normally to outfox antibiotics, which normally to outfox antibiotics, which normally will kill plague. The bacteria is called will kill plague. The bacteria is called will kill plague. The bacteria is called Yersinia pestis. Yersinia pestis. Yersinia pestis. And they wanted to specifically And they wanted to specifically And they wanted to specifically send America back to the sort of, you send America back to the sort of, you send America back to the sort of, you know, pre-antibiotic era and have all know, pre-antibiotic era and have all know, pre-antibiotic era and have all the people have completely lost trust in the people have completely lost trust in the people have completely lost trust in the medical establishment. the medical establishment. the medical establishment. >> How did we find out about the Soviet >> How did we find out about the Soviet >> How did we find out about the Soviet weapons program? weapons program? weapons program? >> The program was huge and it was >> The program was huge and it was >> The program was huge and it was secretive and no one knew about it from, secretive and no one knew about it from, secretive and no one knew about it from, you know, until 1988-89. you know, until 1988-89. you know, until 1988-89. And then one of its leading And then one of its leading And then one of its leading scientist engineers named Vladimir scientist engineers named Vladimir scientist engineers named Vladimir Pasechnik Pasechnik Pasechnik had a moral crisis. had a moral crisis. had a moral crisis. And he was a rare Soviet scientist who And he was a rare Soviet scientist who And he was a rare Soviet scientist who was allowed to leave Russia was allowed to leave Russia was allowed to leave Russia to go buy equipment for the biological to go buy equipment for the biological to go buy equipment for the biological weapons program in France. weapons program in France. weapons program in France. And that is where And that is where And that is where he he he went he decided to defect and tell went he decided to defect and tell went he decided to defect and tell the West. So, he went to the embassy. He the West. So, he went to the embassy. He the West. So, he went to the embassy. He actually went to the Canadian embassy actually went to the Canadian embassy actually went to the Canadian embassy first. first. first. And they didn't believe him. And they didn't believe him. And they didn't believe him. And they sent him away. And he went back And they sent him away. And he went back And they sent him away. And he went back to a phone booth and he called the to a phone booth and he called the to a phone booth and he called the British embassy. British embassy. British embassy. They took him very seriously. Picked him They took him very seriously. Picked him They took him very seriously. Picked him up in a car. And a day later he was up in a car. And a day later he was up in a car. And a day later he was sitting in London in a safe house across sitting in London in a safe house across sitting in London in a safe house across the table just like you and I are now the table just like you and I are now the table just like you and I are now from Dr. Christopher Davis who was the from Dr. Christopher Davis who was the from Dr. Christopher Davis who was the only pretty much the only guy assigned only pretty much the only guy assigned only pretty much the only guy assigned to biological weapons to biological weapons to biological weapons in the British intelligence because in the British intelligence because in the British intelligence because there were no biological weapons. There there were no biological weapons. There there were no biological weapons. There weren't supposed to be. So he was this weren't supposed to be. So he was this weren't supposed to be. So he was this young surgeon commander young surgeon commander young surgeon commander and he knew a lot about biological and he knew a lot about biological and he knew a lot about biological weapons um and I've interviewed him at weapons um and I've interviewed him at weapons um and I've interviewed him at length for the book. Imagine him length for the book. Imagine him length for the book. Imagine him learning about this and learning about learning about this and learning about learning about this and learning about the super plague weapon the super plague weapon the super plague weapon and going and going and going and then the British told their American and then the British told their American and then the British told their American counterparts at the CIA counterparts at the CIA counterparts at the CIA it was verified. it was verified. it was verified. And And And >> How was it verified? >> How was it verified? >> How was it verified? >> We sent So Davis and another colleague >> We sent So Davis and another colleague >> We sent So Davis and another colleague who uh went to the CIA in Langley who uh went to the CIA in Langley who uh went to the CIA in Langley had a discussion with them, told them had a discussion with them, told them had a discussion with them, told them everything that Pasechnik had said. everything that Pasechnik had said. everything that Pasechnik had said. Um these guys are MDs and PhDs and you Um these guys are MDs and PhDs and you Um these guys are MDs and PhDs and you know the CIA was like, "Okay, well we know the CIA was like, "Okay, well we know the CIA was like, "Okay, well we have to verify it ourselves." They sent have to verify it ourselves." They sent have to verify it ourselves." They sent Joshua Lederberg who was a very famous Joshua Lederberg who was a very famous Joshua Lederberg who was a very famous Nobel laureate to the UK to interview Nobel laureate to the UK to interview Nobel laureate to the UK to interview Pasechnik himself. Pasechnik himself. Pasechnik himself. And Dr. Davis was there in that room and And Dr. Davis was there in that room and And Dr. Davis was there in that room and he said Lederberg was like he said Lederberg was like he said Lederberg was like he's the way he said it was the scales he's the way he said it was the scales he's the way he said it was the scales fell off his eyes. fell off his eyes. fell off his eyes. Oh my god. Like not only what have they Oh my god. Like not only what have they Oh my god. Like not only what have they done done done but how did we not know this? They were but how did we not know this? They were but how did we not know this? They were manufacturing tons manufacturing tons manufacturing tons of plague weapon, tons of smallpox of plague weapon, tons of smallpox of plague weapon, tons of smallpox weapon. weapon. weapon. And the systems the delivery systems And the systems the delivery systems And the systems the delivery systems were such in those days they weren't were such in those days they weren't were such in those days they weren't airborne truly airborne. They were going airborne truly airborne. They were going airborne truly airborne. They were going to be delivered you know on like sort of to be delivered you know on like sort of to be delivered you know on like sort of low-flying cruise missiles and dropped. low-flying cruise missiles and dropped. low-flying cruise missiles and dropped. There was a whole weaponization that had There was a whole weaponization that had There was a whole weaponization that had to happen. to happen. to happen. >> in capsules and bombs or in >> in capsules and bombs or in >> in capsules and bombs or in >> you put they had they had engineered and >> you put they had they had engineered and >> you put they had they had engineered and actually correctly engineered. That was actually correctly engineered. That was actually correctly engineered. That was part of the verification process. part of the verification process. part of the verification process. Creating warheads that could survive Creating warheads that could survive Creating warheads that could survive this incredible heat. this incredible heat. this incredible heat. Um and their delivery systems work, but Um and their delivery systems work, but Um and their delivery systems work, but that those were never used. that those were never used. that those were never used. >> Okay, so >> Okay, so >> Okay, so that's how weapons can be used to that's how weapons can be used to that's how weapons can be used to attack, but surely everyone also needs attack, but surely everyone also needs attack, but surely everyone also needs to build biodefenses as well. to build biodefenses as well. to build biodefenses as well. >> And this is the big conundrum. >> And this is the big conundrum. >> And this is the big conundrum. There's a There's a paradox there, There's a There's a paradox there, There's a There's a paradox there, right? In the [snorts] effort to defend right? In the [snorts] effort to defend right? In the [snorts] effort to defend against biological attacks results in against biological attacks results in against biological attacks results in more labs being built, which increases more labs being built, which increases more labs being built, which increases the opportunity for a biological the opportunity for a biological the opportunity for a biological catastrophe because you don't just have catastrophe because you don't just have catastrophe because you don't just have purposeful deliberate leaks or attacks. purposeful deliberate leaks or attacks. purposeful deliberate leaks or attacks. >> Yes. >> Yes. >> Yes. >> You don't just have purposeful attacks, >> You don't just have purposeful attacks, >> You don't just have purposeful attacks, you also have accidental leaks. you also have accidental leaks. you also have accidental leaks. >> Absolutely. And maybe no one would be >> Absolutely. And maybe no one would be >> Absolutely. And maybe no one would be crazy enough to use a biological weapon crazy enough to use a biological weapon crazy enough to use a biological weapon because they know about blowback now. because they know about blowback now. because they know about blowback now. You know what happens with a pandemic. You know what happens with a pandemic. You know what happens with a pandemic. Except a terrorist organization, you Except a terrorist organization, you Except a terrorist organization, you know, that doesn't value life, shall we know, that doesn't value life, shall we know, that doesn't value life, shall we say, say, say, in this certainly in the same manner as, in this certainly in the same manner as, in this certainly in the same manner as, you know, the West. you know, the West. you know, the West. But the lab accidents and the lab leaks But the lab accidents and the lab leaks But the lab accidents and the lab leaks are very serious concern and should be. are very serious concern and should be. are very serious concern and should be. But let's talk about labs for a minute But let's talk about labs for a minute But let's talk about labs for a minute because I think it's very interesting to because I think it's very interesting to because I think it's very interesting to look at numbers. So, look at numbers. So, look at numbers. So, we just spoke of like in the '90s, you we just spoke of like in the '90s, you we just spoke of like in the '90s, you know, the US finds out about the Soviet know, the US finds out about the Soviet know, the US finds out about the Soviet program, Clinton makes the use of a program, Clinton makes the use of a program, Clinton makes the use of a biological weapon a death penalty biological weapon a death penalty biological weapon a death penalty offense. offense. offense. The system really vamps up. The Cold War The system really vamps up. The Cold War The system really vamps up. The Cold War is down. Now there's a new enemy. I is down. Now there's a new enemy. I is down. Now there's a new enemy. I mean, the the Cold War is over. The mean, the the Cold War is over. The mean, the the Cold War is over. The wall's down. Now there's a new enemy. wall's down. Now there's a new enemy. wall's down. Now there's a new enemy. It's definitely biological weapons. It's definitely biological weapons. It's definitely biological weapons. Terrorists start to enter into the fold. Terrorists start to enter into the fold. Terrorists start to enter into the fold. And then 9/11 happens. And then 9/11 happens. And then 9/11 happens. And when And most people forget or And when And most people forget or And when And most people forget or aren't old enough to remember that aren't old enough to remember that aren't old enough to remember that just a few weeks after 9/11 there was an just a few weeks after 9/11 there was an just a few weeks after 9/11 there was an anthrax attack against the Senate. anthrax attack against the Senate. anthrax attack against the Senate. And that moved the biological, And that moved the biological, And that moved the biological, pharmaceutical, biotechnology, pharmaceutical, biotechnology, pharmaceutical, biotechnology, biodefense industry, call it what you biodefense industry, call it what you biodefense industry, call it what you will, into high gear. And that's where will, into high gear. And that's where will, into high gear. And that's where the a whole new system of the a whole new system of the a whole new system of science unfolded science unfolded science unfolded to work on exactly what you're talking to work on exactly what you're talking to work on exactly what you're talking about, medical countermeasures in the about, medical countermeasures in the about, medical countermeasures in the event of a biological attack. And so, event of a biological attack. And so, event of a biological attack. And so, for example, there were two BSL-4 labs. for example, there were two BSL-4 labs. for example, there were two BSL-4 labs. That's the highest maximum containment That's the highest maximum containment That's the highest maximum containment biosafety level four. biosafety level four. biosafety level four. The you know, the zoot suits, the space The you know, the zoot suits, the space The you know, the zoot suits, the space suits, and the hose with the air, and suits, and the hose with the air, and suits, and the hose with the air, and you're working in an autoclave, and you're working in an autoclave, and you're working in an autoclave, and there's like it's very there's like it's very there's like it's very >> autoclave. >> autoclave. >> autoclave. >> You know, you your hands are in >> You know, you your hands are in >> You know, you your hands are in >> Yeah. Yeah. >> Yeah. Yeah. >> Yeah. Yeah. >> gloves, and the pathogen >> gloves, and the pathogen >> gloves, and the pathogen >> fish tank with with gloves and yeah. >> fish tank with with gloves and yeah. >> fish tank with with gloves and yeah. >> You've seen it in movies. >> You've seen it in movies. >> You've seen it in movies. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> That's BSL-4. There were two of them. >> That's BSL-4. There were two of them. >> That's BSL-4. There were two of them. Defense Department had one at Fort Defense Department had one at Fort Defense Department had one at Fort Detrick. Detrick. Detrick. Civil sector, CDC had one Civil sector, CDC had one Civil sector, CDC had one in Atlanta. in Atlanta. in Atlanta. After 9/11, 15 BSL-4 labs. After 9/11, 15 BSL-4 labs. After 9/11, 15 BSL-4 labs. And over a thousand BSL-3 labs. And over a thousand BSL-3 labs. And over a thousand BSL-3 labs. BSL-3 is just one step down. That's BSL-3 is just one step down. That's BSL-3 is just one step down. That's where you work on plague, hantavirus. where you work on plague, hantavirus. where you work on plague, hantavirus. >> What do you work on in BSL-4 if you've >> What do you work on in BSL-4 if you've >> What do you work on in BSL-4 if you've got plague and hantavirus in BSL-3? got plague and hantavirus in BSL-3? got plague and hantavirus in BSL-3? >> And this was very interesting to learn >> And this was very interesting to learn >> And this was very interesting to learn about this cuz I had that same question. about this cuz I had that same question. about this cuz I had that same question. BSL-4 is absolutely no known cure. It's BSL-4 is absolutely no known cure. It's BSL-4 is absolutely no known cure. It's Ebola. It's Marburg. Ebola. It's Marburg. Ebola. It's Marburg. It's Nipah. No known cure, and It's Nipah. No known cure, and It's Nipah. No known cure, and >> I don't know Marburg or Nipah. >> I don't know Marburg or Nipah. >> I don't know Marburg or Nipah. >> They're virus They're viruses. Some of >> They're virus They're viruses. Some of >> They're virus They're viruses. Some of them are Yeah, yeah, mother na- These them are Yeah, yeah, mother na- These them are Yeah, yeah, mother na- These are all mother nature. are all mother nature. are all mother nature. So, and then the So, and then the So, and then the plague Remember, plague should be plague Remember, plague should be plague Remember, plague should be um um um able to be the plague bacteria should be able to be the plague bacteria should be able to be the plague bacteria should be killed by by antibiotics. killed by by antibiotics. killed by by antibiotics. When you get into genetic modification, When you get into genetic modification, When you get into genetic modification, now we have a different story. now we have a different story. now we have a different story. Um hantavirus should be able to be Um hantavirus should be able to be Um hantavirus should be able to be contained. But yes, it's a very good contained. But yes, it's a very good contained. But yes, it's a very good question about what's the difference question about what's the difference question about what's the difference between BSL-4 and BSL-3 if you're between BSL-4 and BSL-3 if you're between BSL-4 and BSL-3 if you're working gain of function in them. working gain of function in them. working gain of function in them. But these labs blew up in number. But these labs blew up in number. But these labs blew up in number. And s- they also did around the world. And s- they also did around the world. And s- they also did around the world. >> How >> How >> How how many viruses are you aware of that how many viruses are you aware of that how many viruses are you aware of that have been create or bio-weapon have been create or bio-weapon have been create or bio-weapon bio-weapon bio-weapon bio-weapon uh analogs uh analogs uh analogs >> Mhm. >> Mhm. >> Mhm. >> have been created from scratch? Is there >> have been created from scratch? Is there >> have been created from scratch? Is there such a thing? such a thing? such a thing? >> That Great question. That's called >> That Great question. That's called >> That Great question. That's called synthetic biology. synthetic biology. synthetic biology. And that is very new, like And that is very new, like And that is very new, like third-generation recombinant DNA. third-generation recombinant DNA. third-generation recombinant DNA. CRISPR, where you Yes, you can create CRISPR, where you Yes, you can create CRISPR, where you Yes, you can create something something something >> Type it in. I want to >> Type it in. I want to >> Type it in. I want to >> does not exist in mother in in in >> does not exist in mother in in in >> does not exist in mother in in in nature. nature. nature. >> Or that is a chimera >> Or that is a chimera >> Or that is a chimera uh gain of function of an existing thing uh gain of function of an existing thing uh gain of function of an existing thing that exists. that exists. that exists. >> And that's not necessarily Well, that's >> And that's not necessarily Well, that's >> And that's not necessarily Well, that's sort of at the edge of synthetic sort of at the edge of synthetic sort of at the edge of synthetic biology. Yes, it does involve synthetic biology. Yes, it does involve synthetic biology. Yes, it does involve synthetic biology, but you can actually create a biology, but you can actually create a biology, but you can actually create a completely new completely new completely new >> blank slate. >> blank slate. >> blank slate. >> And that is That's where you're getting >> And that is That's where you're getting >> And that is That's where you're getting into the area and and certainly with AI. into the area and and certainly with AI. into the area and and certainly with AI. >> Are you aware of any of those that have >> Are you aware of any of those that have >> Are you aware of any of those that have been made? been made? been made? >> That is s- >> That is s- >> That is s- so incredibly classified. I mean, I so incredibly classified. I mean, I so incredibly classified. I mean, I would have to guess. would have to guess. would have to guess. >> body of work seems incredibly >> body of work seems incredibly >> body of work seems incredibly classified. classified. classified. >> well, no. I mean, this is what's >> well, no. I mean, this is what's >> well, no. I mean, this is what's interesting. People s- sometimes say to interesting. People s- sometimes say to interesting. People s- sometimes say to me, "Annie, how do you get classified me, "Annie, how do you get classified me, "Annie, how do you get classified information?" I don't. My sources would information?" I don't. My sources would information?" I don't. My sources would be in prison. I name my sources. So, be in prison. I name my sources. So, be in prison. I name my sources. So, they're taking me up to the edge they're taking me up to the edge they're taking me up to the edge of what can be known. of what can be known. of what can be known. When we get into devolution, which is When we get into devolution, which is When we get into devolution, which is the program to save, you know, a small the program to save, you know, a small the program to save, you know, a small group of individuals when everyone else group of individuals when everyone else group of individuals when everyone else is dying and mass anarchy and is dying and mass anarchy and is dying and mass anarchy and insurrection unfolds across the United insurrection unfolds across the United insurrection unfolds across the United States and everywhere, States and everywhere, States and everywhere, >> Mhm. >> Mhm. >> Mhm. >> I can That is a classified program, >> I can That is a classified program, >> I can That is a classified program, devolution. Spooky evolution, devolution. Spooky evolution, devolution. Spooky evolution, devolution, okay? Classified program, devolution, okay? Classified program, devolution, okay? Classified program, but the name has been declassified. but the name has been declassified. but the name has been declassified. So, like 5 years ago, the name So, like 5 years ago, the name So, like 5 years ago, the name >> listen to my new album, but I'll tell >> listen to my new album, but I'll tell >> listen to my new album, but I'll tell you what it's called. you what it's called. you what it's called. >> Or the river right, you know? >> Or the river right, you know? >> Or the river right, you know? Um I'll tell you what it's called, but Um I'll tell you what it's called, but Um I'll tell you what it's called, but you can't listen to it. you can't listen to it. you can't listen to it. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Right. >> Right. >> Right. >> Yeah. Yeah. >> Yeah. Yeah. >> Yeah. Yeah. >> Most people have no idea where their >> Most people have no idea where their >> Most people have no idea where their testosterone levels sit. But what if I testosterone levels sit. 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Okay, Okay, Okay, what as far as you're aware, what are what as far as you're aware, what are what as far as you're aware, what are the most the most the most risky or controversial experiments that risky or controversial experiments that risky or controversial experiments that have happened in bioweapons so far? have happened in bioweapons so far? have happened in bioweapons so far? >> [gasps] >> [gasps] >> [gasps] >> Well, okay. So technically they're not >> Well, okay. So technically they're not >> Well, okay. So technically they're not in bioweapons. They are in, you know, in bioweapons. They are in, you know, in bioweapons. They are in, you know, biological countermeasure pursuits, biological countermeasure pursuits, biological countermeasure pursuits, okay? Because remember biological weapon okay? Because remember biological weapon okay? Because remember biological weapon engineering is illegal. engineering is illegal. engineering is illegal. Um Um Um just a few basic ones that are good to just a few basic ones that are good to just a few basic ones that are good to know, and also how old some of this know, and also how old some of this know, and also how old some of this technology is is like right around 2000, technology is is like right around 2000, technology is is like right around 2000, 2001. There was a mousepox experiment. 2001. There was a mousepox experiment. 2001. There was a mousepox experiment. It was one of the first ones. So It was one of the first ones. So It was one of the first ones. So um in Australia um in Australia um in Australia they took scientists there just wanted they took scientists there just wanted they took scientists there just wanted to experiment and see. And they took to experiment and see. And they took to experiment and see. And they took mice that had been vaccinated mice that had been vaccinated mice that had been vaccinated and they gave them mousepox, which is and they gave them mousepox, which is and they gave them mousepox, which is similar to smallpox, to see if they similar to smallpox, to see if they similar to smallpox, to see if they could defeat the vaccine. and they did. could defeat the vaccine. and they did. could defeat the vaccine. and they did. >> Mhm. >> Mhm. >> Mhm. >> So, that was a terrifying moment in >> So, that was a terrifying moment in >> So, that was a terrifying moment in bioengineering because you realize you bioengineering because you realize you bioengineering because you realize you could defeat a countermeasure. could defeat a countermeasure. could defeat a countermeasure. >> Mhm. >> Mhm. >> Mhm. >> That's where you're you know engineering >> That's where you're you know engineering >> That's where you're you know engineering something to evade cure. That's something to evade cure. That's something to evade cure. That's incredibly dangerous. And then like 10, incredibly dangerous. And then like 10, incredibly dangerous. And then like 10, 12 years later, there was a 12 years later, there was a 12 years later, there was a there was a modification [clears throat] there was a modification [clears throat] there was a modification [clears throat] on H5N1. It was called the the ferret on H5N1. It was called the the ferret on H5N1. It was called the the ferret flu flu flu um experiment. And um experiment. And um experiment. And the scientists working on that made the scientists working on that made the scientists working on that made H5N1 airborne. Before that, it was not H5N1 airborne. Before that, it was not H5N1 airborne. Before that, it was not airborne. So, there's a there's a lesser airborne. So, there's a there's a lesser airborne. So, there's a there's a lesser airborne version, which is airborne version, which is airborne version, which is um um um respi- like con- like if I if you and I respi- like con- like if I if you and I respi- like con- like if I if you and I are talking, have you ever been at a are talking, have you ever been at a are talking, have you ever been at a party with someone loud music and and party with someone loud music and and party with someone loud music and and they spit on you? they spit on you? they spit on you? >> Mhm. >> Mhm. >> Mhm. >> That's called droplet transmission, >> That's called droplet transmission, >> That's called droplet transmission, right? And you know, we've all had it right? And you know, we've all had it right? And you know, we've all had it happen and you kind of like happen and you kind of like happen and you kind of like go right? It's just gross, but it's it go right? It's just gross, but it's it go right? It's just gross, but it's it happens. happens. happens. >> Mhm. >> Mhm. >> Mhm. >> Definitely never rub your eye. >> Definitely never rub your eye. >> Definitely never rub your eye. >> Never rub your eye. >> Never rub your eye. >> Never rub your eye. >> Or your nose or put your finger in your >> Or your nose or put your finger in your >> Or your nose or put your finger in your mouth. mouth. mouth. >> Okay. >> Okay. >> Okay. Those are the three. Those are the three. Those are the three. >> That's how droplet transmission occurs. >> That's how droplet transmission occurs. >> That's how droplet transmission occurs. >> Okay. >> Okay. >> Okay. >> Eye, nose, mouth. >> Eye, nose, mouth. >> Eye, nose, mouth. >> Right. >> Right. >> Right. >> Okay? >> Okay? >> Okay? Um Um Um that's not that's not airborne. Airborne that's not that's not airborne. Airborne that's not that's not airborne. Airborne is aerosolized. Airborne is just it's in is aerosolized. Airborne is just it's in is aerosolized. Airborne is just it's in the air and it's floating in the air and the air and it's floating in the air and the air and it's floating in the air and it can stay in the air. it can stay in the air. it can stay in the air. Um and so, what scientists did in that Um and so, what scientists did in that Um and so, what scientists did in that 2012 experiment is they 2012 experiment is they 2012 experiment is they made dro- something that was droplet made dro- something that was droplet made dro- something that was droplet transmission. And that's you know, if we transmission. And that's you know, if we transmission. And that's you know, if we if I back way up and you're over there if I back way up and you're over there if I back way up and you're over there and you're not [clears throat] leaning and you're not [clears throat] leaning and you're not [clears throat] leaning in close to talk to me, I'm not going to in close to talk to me, I'm not going to in close to talk to me, I'm not going to get your get your get your >> But realistically, that's what those big >> But realistically, that's what those big >> But realistically, that's what those big plastic welding shields that people plastic welding shields that people plastic welding shields that people wearing during COVID, that's really all wearing during COVID, that's really all wearing during COVID, that's really all that they would have been good for. that they would have been good for. that they would have been good for. >> Precisely. And that's what the the mask >> Precisely. And that's what the the mask >> Precisely. And that's what the the mask does is it just if somebody spits on does is it just if somebody spits on does is it just if somebody spits on you, it it's it's a layer of protection. you, it it's it's a layer of protection. you, it it's it's a layer of protection. >> Presumably, presumably this is kind of >> Presumably, presumably this is kind of >> Presumably, presumably this is kind of um um um necessary but not sufficient. Like necessary but not sufficient. Like necessary but not sufficient. Like if something is aerosolized, it also has if something is aerosolized, it also has if something is aerosolized, it also has to be transmissible through saliva, like to be transmissible through saliva, like to be transmissible through saliva, like through droplets. through droplets. through droplets. >> Absolutely. >> Absolutely. >> Absolutely. >> Because droplet is basically liquidized >> Because droplet is basically liquidized >> Because droplet is basically liquidized aerosolized. aerosolized. aerosolized. >> somebody >> somebody >> somebody gives somebody CPR. gives somebody CPR. gives somebody CPR. >> Mhm. >> Mhm. >> Mhm. >> Sayonara. You know, and that has to do >> Sayonara. You know, and that has to do >> Sayonara. You know, and that has to do with how quickly you're going to then be with how quickly you're going to then be with how quickly you're going to then be infected yourself. infected yourself. infected yourself. >> Mhm. >> Mhm. >> Mhm. >> Right? Because this is again squishy >> Right? Because this is again squishy >> Right? Because this is again squishy biology. It's not perfect. It's one of biology. It's not perfect. It's one of biology. It's not perfect. It's one of the major problems with COVID, with your the major problems with COVID, with your the major problems with COVID, with your analogy of how it just became so analogy of how it just became so analogy of how it just became so terrible. Because health officials terrible. Because health officials terrible. Because health officials refused to say, "You know what? We don't refused to say, "You know what? We don't refused to say, "You know what? We don't know. We don't know yet." They couldn't know. We don't know yet." They couldn't know. We don't know yet." They couldn't say that. Instead they said, "COVID's say that. Instead they said, "COVID's say that. Instead they said, "COVID's not airborne." And then later they had not airborne." And then later they had not airborne." And then later they had to backtrack. Well, imagine all of us to backtrack. Well, imagine all of us to backtrack. Well, imagine all of us that didn't know better were saying, that didn't know better were saying, that didn't know better were saying, "Why are they telling us X when it's "Why are they telling us X when it's "Why are they telling us X when it's really Y?" really Y?" really Y?" >> Yeah, yeah, yeah. The boy who cried >> Yeah, yeah, yeah. The boy who cried >> Yeah, yeah, yeah. The boy who cried wolf. So, do you think it's fair to say wolf. So, do you think it's fair to say wolf. So, do you think it's fair to say that biotechnology is sort of the most that biotechnology is sort of the most that biotechnology is sort of the most powerful, but also least controllable powerful, but also least controllable powerful, but also least controllable technology that we've got as a technology that we've got as a technology that we've got as a civilization? civilization? civilization? >> I would say nuclear weapons are the most >> I would say nuclear weapons are the most >> I would say nuclear weapons are the most powerful, just in terms of destruction powerful, just in terms of destruction powerful, just in terms of destruction and in terms of temperature, right? By and in terms of temperature, right? By and in terms of temperature, right? By all means. But biological weapons are all means. But biological weapons are all means. But biological weapons are the most dangerous for precisely the the most dangerous for precisely the the most dangerous for precisely the reason you say, because they are reason you say, because they are reason you say, because they are Look, there's no barrier to entry. Look, there's no barrier to entry. Look, there's no barrier to entry. Nuclear weapons are control First of Nuclear weapons are control First of Nuclear weapons are control First of all, you have to have uranium or all, you have to have uranium or all, you have to have uranium or plutonium. plutonium. plutonium. >> And that is pretty hard to get a hold >> And that is pretty hard to get a hold >> And that is pretty hard to get a hold of. of. of. >> Very difficult. Then you have to have a >> Very difficult. Then you have to have a >> Very difficult. Then you have to have a nation-state that can afford that, and nation-state that can afford that, and nation-state that can afford that, and then you have to have a delivery system. then you have to have a delivery system. then you have to have a delivery system. You can't just drop a nuclear weapon in You can't just drop a nuclear weapon in You can't just drop a nuclear weapon in a field. You have to deliver it. That is a field. You have to deliver it. That is a field. You have to deliver it. That is incredibly expensive. The barrier to incredibly expensive. The barrier to incredibly expensive. The barrier to entry is high. It's why, thank God, we entry is high. It's why, thank God, we entry is high. It's why, thank God, we have not had a nuclear event have not had a nuclear event have not had a nuclear event since the first two bombs were dropped since the first two bombs were dropped since the first two bombs were dropped in World War II. in World War II. in World War II. >> Mhm. >> Mhm. >> Mhm. >> Biological weapons have no barrier to >> Biological weapons have no barrier to >> Biological weapons have no barrier to entry anymore. You can essentially entry anymore. You can essentially entry anymore. You can essentially engineer engineer engineer a pathogen with very limited biology in a pathogen with very limited biology in a pathogen with very limited biology in your basement. your basement. your basement. >> printer. >> printer. >> printer. >> It's terrifying. It's terrifying and >> It's terrifying. It's terrifying and >> It's terrifying. It's terrifying and everybody in the business of biological everybody in the business of biological everybody in the business of biological weapons knows that and the solution must weapons knows that and the solution must weapons knows that and the solution must be to be informed. be to be informed. be to be informed. And it must be to on have a you know, And it must be to on have a you know, And it must be to on have a you know, have a capacity to understand what can have a capacity to understand what can have a capacity to understand what can really happen. really happen. really happen. >> I'm going to guess you you looked at the >> I'm going to guess you you looked at the >> I'm going to guess you you looked at the um green amber red system that's used um green amber red system that's used um green amber red system that's used for desktop for desktop for desktop uh uh uh is it biosynthesizers? So, I uh uh uh is it biosynthesizers? So, I uh uh uh is it biosynthesizers? So, I remember learning this from uh remember learning this from uh remember learning this from uh The End of the World with Josh Clark, The End of the World with Josh Clark, The End of the World with Josh Clark, which is my favorite limited series which is my favorite limited series which is my favorite limited series podcast from like 8 years ago. podcast from like 8 years ago. podcast from like 8 years ago. In it, he's talking about how bioweapons In it, he's talking about how bioweapons In it, he's talking about how bioweapons now you can have these uh now you can have these uh now you can have these uh tabletop synthesizers and uh in order to tabletop synthesizers and uh in order to tabletop synthesizers and uh in order to synthesize different um DNA structures, synthesize different um DNA structures, synthesize different um DNA structures, they get run through a library that they get run through a library that they get run through a library that stress tests what it is that you're stress tests what it is that you're stress tests what it is that you're trying to synthesize and you can do trying to synthesize and you can do trying to synthesize and you can do green all day long. Uh amber needs a green all day long. Uh amber needs a green all day long. Uh amber needs a level of clearance and if you do red, level of clearance and if you do red, level of clearance and if you do red, there is you can't do it first off and there is you can't do it first off and there is you can't do it first off and there is a like FBI come and kick your there is a like FBI come and kick your there is a like FBI come and kick your door down, but door down, but door down, but Nick Bostrom's got this really Nick Bostrom's got this really Nick Bostrom's got this really interesting experiment. He's from the interesting experiment. He's from the interesting experiment. He's from the Future of Humanity Institute, the same Future of Humanity Institute, the same Future of Humanity Institute, the same that Toby is and he says it's only due that Toby is and he says it's only due that Toby is and he says it's only due to sort of luck of chemistry and physics to sort of luck of chemistry and physics to sort of luck of chemistry and physics that you can't create an atom bomb by that you can't create an atom bomb by that you can't create an atom bomb by putting sand in your microwave by putting sand in your microwave by putting sand in your microwave by combining something that is very readily combining something that is very readily combining something that is very readily available with a technology that is available with a technology that is available with a technology that is easily accessible and the fact that easily accessible and the fact that easily accessible and the fact that that's not the case, like hooray, but that's not the case, like hooray, but that's not the case, like hooray, but that it that it that it didn't need to be that way. It could be didn't need to be that way. It could be didn't need to be that way. It could be the case that there could be a type of the case that there could be a type of the case that there could be a type of technology there could be a type of technology there could be a type of technology there could be a type of destruction which is enabled by an destruction which is enabled by an destruction which is enabled by an easily accessible technology with or easily accessible technology with or easily accessible technology with or without some easily accessible resource. without some easily accessible resource. without some easily accessible resource. Uh and yeah, as we Uh and yeah, as we Uh and yeah, as we democratize information and technology, democratize information and technology, democratize information and technology, each time that you do that, he refers to each time that you do that, he refers to each time that you do that, he refers to it as drawing balls out of an urn. Have it as drawing balls out of an urn. Have it as drawing balls out of an urn. Have you heard this example before? you heard this example before? you heard this example before? >> I have. >> I have. >> I have. >> So, you have a an urn with an unknown >> So, you have a an urn with an unknown >> So, you have a an urn with an unknown number of balls in, and for everyone number of balls in, and for everyone number of balls in, and for everyone that you draw out, that's like that you draw out, that's like that you draw out, that's like technological progress. So, you put your technological progress. So, you put your technological progress. So, you put your hand into the urn, and you draw out a hand into the urn, and you draw out a hand into the urn, and you draw out a ball. And sometimes they're white. They ball. And sometimes they're white. They ball. And sometimes they're white. They make the world a better place. Hooray. make the world a better place. Hooray. make the world a better place. Hooray. Pull out another one, and it's white. It Pull out another one, and it's white. It Pull out another one, and it's white. It makes the world a better place. Then you makes the world a better place. Then you makes the world a better place. Then you pull out one, and it's gray. pull out one, and it's gray. pull out one, and it's gray. And it makes the world a better place, And it makes the world a better place, And it makes the world a better place, but also makes it more dangerous place. but also makes it more dangerous place. but also makes it more dangerous place. Better place, more dangerous place. Better place, more dangerous place. Better place, more dangerous place. But inside the urn of an unknown number But inside the urn of an unknown number But inside the urn of an unknown number of balls are an unknown number of black of balls are an unknown number of black of balls are an unknown number of black balls. balls. balls. If you pull one of those out, it's game If you pull one of those out, it's game If you pull one of those out, it's game over. over. over. And that is the kind of technology that And that is the kind of technology that And that is the kind of technology that as you make progress. This is a guy who as you make progress. This is a guy who as you make progress. This is a guy who is from the Future of Humanity is from the Future of Humanity is from the Future of Humanity Institute. Philosophy He's the most Institute. Philosophy He's the most Institute. Philosophy He's the most cited philosopher under the age of 50 in cited philosopher under the age of 50 in cited philosopher under the age of 50 in the world, this guy. the world, this guy. the world, this guy. >> Bostrom. >> Bostrom. >> Bostrom. >> Bostrom. >> Bostrom. >> Bostrom. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. He's Yes. He's Yes. He's Yes. >> If you pull out the black ball, but you >> If you pull out the black ball, but you >> If you pull out the black ball, but you don't even need to pull out the black don't even need to pull out the black don't even need to pull out the black one. If you just pull out enough gray one. If you just pull out enough gray one. If you just pull out enough gray ones, the risk begins to combine to the ones, the risk begins to combine to the ones, the risk begins to combine to the point where point where point where it's very dangerous. Okay, let's war it's very dangerous. Okay, let's war it's very dangerous. Okay, let's war game out your nightmare scenario. game out your nightmare scenario. game out your nightmare scenario. Day one, what happens? Day one, what happens? Day one, what happens? >> Explosion at the Vector lab in Russia. >> Explosion at the Vector lab in Russia. >> Explosion at the Vector lab in Russia. And the reason that I chose that is why And the reason that I chose that is why And the reason that I chose that is why I chose many plot points in the I chose many plot points in the I chose many plot points in the scenarios, it happened once before. scenarios, it happened once before. scenarios, it happened once before. In 2019, there was an explosion at the In 2019, there was an explosion at the In 2019, there was an explosion at the Vector lab. Vector is the BSL-4 facility Vector lab. Vector is the BSL-4 facility Vector lab. Vector is the BSL-4 facility where where where the a majority of the Soviet the Cold War. of the Soviet the Cold War. >> Where is it? >> Where is it? >> Where is it? >> It's in just outside of Novosibirsk, >> It's in just outside of Novosibirsk, >> It's in just outside of Novosibirsk, Siberia. Siberia. Siberia. Okay? And so, that may sound like the Okay? And so, that may sound like the Okay? And so, that may sound like the middle of no- nowhere. It's actually in middle of no- nowhere. It's actually in middle of no- nowhere. It's actually in a small sort of village, a science city a small sort of village, a science city a small sort of village, a science city called Koltsovo, 8 miles from called Koltsovo, 8 miles from called Koltsovo, 8 miles from Novosibirsk. Novosibirsk. Novosibirsk. Siberia. It's a You know, people are Siberia. It's a You know, people are Siberia. It's a You know, people are like, "Wait, Siberia? Is that a real like, "Wait, Siberia? Is that a real like, "Wait, Siberia? Is that a real place?" It is Okay. place?" It is Okay. place?" It is Okay. Sounds far away. It's the third largest Sounds far away. It's the third largest Sounds far away. It's the third largest city in Russia after Moscow and St. city in Russia after Moscow and St. city in Russia after Moscow and St. Petersburg. 1.6 million people. And most BSL-4 or many BSL-4 labs, by And most BSL-4 or many BSL-4 labs, by the way, are just right in the middle of the way, are just right in the middle of the way, are just right in the middle of some of the largest popular population some of the largest popular population some of the largest popular population centers in the world. Tokyo, South centers in the world. Tokyo, South centers in the world. Tokyo, South Africa, Atlanta, right? So, that's how Africa, Atlanta, right? So, that's how Africa, Atlanta, right? So, that's how it begins. I have an explosion in the it begins. I have an explosion in the it begins. I have an explosion in the lab, but unlike what happened in 2019 lab, but unlike what happened in 2019 lab, but unlike what happened in 2019 where there was no release as far as where there was no release as far as where there was no release as far as anyone knows, anyone knows, anyone knows, there is a release of a pathogen. there is a release of a pathogen. there is a release of a pathogen. And it's pneumonic plague. And it's And it's pneumonic plague. And it's And it's pneumonic plague. And it's genetically modified pneumonic plague. genetically modified pneumonic plague. genetically modified pneumonic plague. And I take the reader through the And I take the reader through the And I take the reader through the military system of systems as as I have military system of systems as as I have military system of systems as as I have spent my career working to understand spent my career working to understand spent my career working to understand all that to see how the DOD reacts. And all that to see how the DOD reacts. And all that to see how the DOD reacts. And to see how and when the the president to see how and when the the president to see how and when the the president will be told. And to see how and when will be told. And to see how and when will be told. And to see how and when the different agencies get involved. And the different agencies get involved. And the different agencies get involved. And to me, that was this extraordinary, to me, that was this extraordinary, to me, that was this extraordinary, you know, learning curve and a sort of you know, learning curve and a sort of you know, learning curve and a sort of like, "Whoa." along the way. With the like, "Whoa." along the way. With the like, "Whoa." along the way. With the number one thing leading the charge that number one thing leading the charge that number one thing leading the charge that every sort of expert in any of those every sort of expert in any of those every sort of expert in any of those agencies told me was, "Annie, if you can agencies told me was, "Annie, if you can agencies told me was, "Annie, if you can stop something with 12 to 24 hours 12 to stop something with 12 to 24 hours 12 to stop something with 12 to 24 hours 12 to 24 to 36 hours, 24 to 36 hours, 24 to 36 hours, if you can stop it in its tracks, you if you can stop it in its tracks, you if you can stop it in its tracks, you can prevent a pandemic." But of course, can prevent a pandemic." But of course, can prevent a pandemic." But of course, because biological weapons are illegal, because biological weapons are illegal, because biological weapons are illegal, no one wants to admit they have no one wants to admit they have no one wants to admit they have biological weapons in their freezers. biological weapons in their freezers. biological weapons in their freezers. And so, And so, And so, >> The host nation's immediately going to >> The host nation's immediately going to >> The host nation's immediately going to try and cover it up or deny it. try and cover it up or deny it. try and cover it up or deny it. >> And that is the natural response across >> And that is the natural response across >> And that is the natural response across history. history. history. To just To just To just if there is an unna- you know, there was if there is an unna- you know, there was if there is an unna- you know, there was a famous case in Sverdlovsk in Russia in a famous case in Sverdlovsk in Russia in a famous case in Sverdlovsk in Russia in 1979 where they were weaponizing 1979 where they were weaponizing 1979 where they were weaponizing anthrax. They were milling it into anthrax. They were milling it into anthrax. They were milling it into powder. Anthrax is an interesting powder. Anthrax is an interesting powder. Anthrax is an interesting pathogen because it's called a a dead pathogen because it's called a a dead pathogen because it's called a a dead end host, right? So, if you get anthrax, end host, right? So, if you get anthrax, end host, right? So, if you get anthrax, it's not transmissible. it's not transmissible. it's not transmissible. >> Mhm. >> Mhm. >> Mhm. >> You get it in your lungs and you die, >> You get it in your lungs and you die, >> You get it in your lungs and you die, but you can't it's not airborne. but you can't it's not airborne. but you can't it's not airborne. But it's like a super killer. And for But it's like a super killer. And for But it's like a super killer. And for whatever reason it was sort of favored, whatever reason it was sort of favored, whatever reason it was sort of favored, you know, pathogen of the Cold War. We you know, pathogen of the Cold War. We you know, pathogen of the Cold War. We had an anthrax program, too. So, there had an anthrax program, too. So, there had an anthrax program, too. So, there was a there was some guy, some, you was a there was some guy, some, you was a there was some guy, some, you know, engineer in the garrison 19 where know, engineer in the garrison 19 where know, engineer in the garrison 19 where they were milling the anthrax into tons they were milling the anthrax into tons they were milling the anthrax into tons of weapons, of weapons, of weapons, >> Mhm. >> Mhm. >> Mhm. >> forgot to change the air filter. >> forgot to change the air filter. >> forgot to change the air filter. And it got out and it killed 100 people And it got out and it killed 100 people And it got out and it killed 100 people in the town. in the town. in the town. >> Mhm. >> Mhm. >> Mhm. >> And so, the Soviet Politburo, you can >> And so, the Soviet Politburo, you can >> And so, the Soviet Politburo, you can imagine the generals with their tall imagine the generals with their tall imagine the generals with their tall boots came in and were like, "It's boots came in and were like, "It's boots came in and were like, "It's contaminated meat." And it was, you know, And it was, you know, it was an escape. It was a lab escape. it was an escape. It was a lab escape. it was an escape. It was a lab escape. And they denied it for decades. Now, And they denied it for decades. Now, And they denied it for decades. Now, it's known to be it's known to be it's known to be this kind of a situation. So, a lab this kind of a situation. So, a lab this kind of a situation. So, a lab leak, lab accident leak, lab accident leak, lab accident is really a very dangerous situation. is really a very dangerous situation. is really a very dangerous situation. >> Would the US be aware? Because >> Would the US be aware? Because >> Would the US be aware? Because presumably they've got satellites that presumably they've got satellites that presumably they've got satellites that see if an they they'll have an idea see if an they they'll have an idea see if an they they'll have an idea about where potential labs are. They'll about where potential labs are. They'll about where potential labs are. They'll be trying to track, "Hey, has there been be trying to track, "Hey, has there been be trying to track, "Hey, has there been some sort of kinetic event that's some sort of kinetic event that's some sort of kinetic event that's occurred there?" occurred there?" occurred there?" And And And what what what what's the process of what's going what's the process of what's going what's the process of what's going >> You're absolutely right. I mean, with >> You're absolutely right. I mean, with >> You're absolutely right. I mean, with nuclear weapons, we have satellites nuclear weapons, we have satellites nuclear weapons, we have satellites parked in geosync over all the parked in geosync over all the parked in geosync over all the facilities to look for that launch in facilities to look for that launch in facilities to look for that launch in the first second that it happens and we the first second that it happens and we the first second that it happens and we see it and we know it. Lab A lab see it and we know it. Lab A lab see it and we know it. Lab A lab accident is different that it's a accident is different that it's a accident is different that it's a different kind of explosion, but they different kind of explosion, but they different kind of explosion, but they measure it from space. They know it's measure it from space. They know it's measure it from space. They know it's not a ICBM launch. It's an explosion. not a ICBM launch. It's an explosion. not a ICBM launch. It's an explosion. And the reason specifically why they And the reason specifically why they And the reason specifically why they have eyes on have eyes on have eyes on the Vector lab is not just because it's the Vector lab is not just because it's the Vector lab is not just because it's like a super dangerous lab that's known like a super dangerous lab that's known like a super dangerous lab that's known to probably have all the bioweapons, but to probably have all the bioweapons, but to probably have all the bioweapons, but because it's just a few miles from an because it's just a few miles from an because it's just a few miles from an ICBM facility in Novosibirsk. So, the ICBM facility in Novosibirsk. So, the ICBM facility in Novosibirsk. So, the Defense Department officials I Defense Department officials I Defense Department officials I interviewed said, "Absolutely, Annie, interviewed said, "Absolutely, Annie, interviewed said, "Absolutely, Annie, we'd have eyes on it. We'd know it and we'd have eyes on it. We'd know it and we'd have eyes on it. We'd know it and we'd call it in. we'd call it in. we'd call it in. >> Mhm. >> Mhm. >> Mhm. >> And but what do you do? >> And but what do you do? >> And but what do you do? What do you do? What do you do? What do you do? You know, you you reach out to You know, you you reach out to You know, you you reach out to Moscow through your State Department Moscow through your State Department Moscow through your State Department people. I spoke to State Department people. I spoke to State Department people. I spoke to State Department officials that work in the business of officials that work in the business of officials that work in the business of counter-proliferation. This is sort of counter-proliferation. This is sort of counter-proliferation. This is sort of like a fancy word for saying trying to like a fancy word for saying trying to like a fancy word for saying trying to stop, you know, biological weapons in stop, you know, biological weapons in stop, you know, biological weapons in their tracks. their tracks. their tracks. >> Mhm. >> Mhm. >> Mhm. >> They would make an overture. >> They would make an overture. >> They would make an overture. No response. No response. No response. >> Mhm. So, now you're met with the do we >> Mhm. So, now you're met with the do we >> Mhm. So, now you're met with the do we drop the nuclear or not question? drop the nuclear or not question? drop the nuclear or not question? >> You are met with that and >> You are met with that and >> You are met with that and >> Because you only have 12 hours, 24 hours >> Because you only have 12 hours, 24 hours >> Because you only have 12 hours, 24 hours probably at most. probably at most. probably at most. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. And that, you know, that is a scenario And that, you know, that is a scenario And that, you know, that is a scenario that that that we've seen in Hollywood movies. It's we've seen in Hollywood movies. It's we've seen in Hollywood movies. It's actually a could very plausibly be a actually a could very plausibly be a actually a could very plausibly be a real scenario, but who's going to do real scenario, but who's going to do real scenario, but who's going to do that because it's almost certainly going that because it's almost certainly going that because it's almost certainly going to trigger a nuclear exchange. Certainly to trigger a nuclear exchange. Certainly to trigger a nuclear exchange. Certainly not not not >> Interesting to think about the way that >> Interesting to think about the way that >> Interesting to think about the way that nuclear weapons work, at least the old nuclear weapons work, at least the old nuclear weapons work, at least the old the old style ones where you had uh the old style ones where you had uh the old style ones where you had uh a Well, you even the new style ones, a Well, you even the new style ones, a Well, you even the new style ones, right? The the H-bomb, you have a right? The the H-bomb, you have a right? The the H-bomb, you have a trigger, and then that is the explosion. trigger, and then that is the explosion. trigger, and then that is the explosion. And in this, you would have a trigger And in this, you would have a trigger And in this, you would have a trigger before the trigger, and the trigger before the trigger, and the trigger before the trigger, and the trigger would be the bioweapon leak. would be the bioweapon leak. would be the bioweapon leak. Mhm. That would cause the nuclear Mhm. Mhm. That would cause the nuclear Mhm. Mhm. That would cause the nuclear Mhm. attack, which would also have its attack, which would also have its attack, which would also have its trigger inside of a trigger. trigger inside of a trigger. trigger inside of a trigger. >> Mhm. >> Mhm. >> Mhm. >> And then you're talking about what's >> And then you're talking about what's >> And then you're talking about what's called a wicked problem. called a wicked problem. called a wicked problem. A wicked problem in Defense Department A wicked problem in Defense Department A wicked problem in Defense Department nomenclature is a problem that only nomenclature is a problem that only nomenclature is a problem that only creates more problems creates more problems creates more problems >> Mhm. >> Mhm. >> Mhm. >> with its solution. And by the time you >> with its solution. And by the time you >> with its solution. And by the time you deploy deploy deploy air quote solution, new problems have air quote solution, new problems have air quote solution, new problems have been created. >> This episode is brought to you by >> This episode is brought to you by Gymshark. If you're going to spend an Gymshark. If you're going to spend an Gymshark. 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Okay, so if there's a leak, it becomes really if there's a leak, it becomes really if there's a leak, it becomes really difficult to determine whether or not a difficult to determine whether or not a difficult to determine whether or not a biological release has happened. biological release has happened. biological release has happened. All of this machinery spins up. All of this machinery spins up. All of this machinery spins up. Any host nation that's it and Any host nation that's it and Any host nation that's it and dropped the ball doesn't want to admit dropped the ball doesn't want to admit dropped the ball doesn't want to admit it. it. it. >> Yep. >> Yep. >> Yep. >> Day two, >> Day two, >> Day two, what happens? what happens? what happens? >> So, back up for a second cuz I'm going >> So, back up for a second cuz I'm going >> So, back up for a second cuz I'm going to tell you some really interesting to tell you some really interesting to tell you some really interesting intelligence collection methods that intelligence collection methods that intelligence collection methods that are wild to think about. So, we you are wild to think about. So, we you are wild to think about. So, we you know, that So, the the entire know, that So, the the entire know, that So, the the entire intelligence community in the United intelligence community in the United intelligence community in the United States at this point in a scenario is States at this point in a scenario is States at this point in a scenario is now focused on did what is our people now focused on did what is our people now focused on did what is our people dying? That's what they need to find dying? That's what they need to find dying? That's what they need to find out. Or what is the what is the Russian out. Or what is the what is the Russian out. Or what is the what is the Russian government doing that makes us think government doing that makes us think government doing that makes us think they know there's been a lab escape. And they know there's been a lab escape. And they know there's been a lab escape. And so, there's NSA listening to the SIGINT, so, there's NSA listening to the SIGINT, so, there's NSA listening to the SIGINT, there's NRO looking down. So, NRO is the there's NRO looking down. So, NRO is the there's NRO looking down. So, NRO is the eyes, NSA is the ears. What's NRO? eyes, NSA is the ears. What's NRO? eyes, NSA is the ears. What's NRO? >> Uh the National Reconnaissance Office >> Uh the National Reconnaissance Office >> Uh the National Reconnaissance Office organization. So, that's space organization. So, that's space organization. So, that's space satellites. satellites. satellites. And then you have a really interesting And then you have a really interesting And then you have a really interesting um collection component called MASINT, um collection component called MASINT, um collection component called MASINT, which is measurement and signal which is measurement and signal which is measurement and signal signature intelligence. signature intelligence. signature intelligence. And it's And it's And it's sniffing. sniffing. sniffing. So, we have sensors So, we have sensors So, we have sensors or maybe we have sensors, I'll put it or maybe we have sensors, I'll put it or maybe we have sensors, I'll put it that way. In facilities. that way. In facilities. that way. In facilities. I mean, I'm talking like sewer pipes, I mean, I'm talking like sewer pipes, I mean, I'm talking like sewer pipes, maybe the walls, on signs. You can put maybe the walls, on signs. You can put maybe the walls, on signs. You can put amazing sec sensor on anything that amazing sec sensor on anything that amazing sec sensor on anything that moves. It could be on a drone. It could moves. It could be on a drone. It could moves. It could be on a drone. It could be in a vehicle. It could be in a be in a vehicle. It could be in a be in a vehicle. It could be in a sprinkler system. sprinkler system. sprinkler system. And that is sniffing And that is sniffing And that is sniffing for a level. for a level. for a level. And the intelligence officers are And the intelligence officers are And the intelligence officers are looking for change. So, when when the looking for change. So, when when the looking for change. So, when when the signatures change, and that would signatures change, and that would signatures change, and that would usually have to do with chemicals that usually have to do with chemicals that usually have to do with chemicals that would be used by the Russian government, would be used by the Russian government, would be used by the Russian government, that would be deployed to try to that would be deployed to try to that would be deployed to try to mitigate mitigate mitigate the aerosol release. the aerosol release. the aerosol release. >> What sort of chemicals can you do to >> What sort of chemicals can you do to >> What sort of chemicals can you do to that try to mitigate this? that try to mitigate this? that try to mitigate this? >> I write them in the book. They're a >> I write them in the book. They're a >> I write them in the book. They're a little hard to pronounce. little hard to pronounce. little hard to pronounce. >> W- W- W- What do they achieve? >> W- W- W- What do they achieve? >> W- W- W- What do they achieve? >> Well, it's it's like a it's like a a >> Well, it's it's like a it's like a a >> Well, it's it's like a it's like a a dum-dum version of ammonia, right? So, dum-dum version of ammonia, right? So, dum-dum version of ammonia, right? So, imagine if if a pathogen spilled on this imagine if if a pathogen spilled on this imagine if if a pathogen spilled on this table, you know, get out the like you table, you know, get out the like you table, you know, get out the like you would try and clean it up would try and clean it up would try and clean it up >> Mhm. >> Mhm. >> Mhm. >> with >> with >> with rubbing alcohol, ammonia. Well, these rubbing alcohol, ammonia. Well, these rubbing alcohol, ammonia. Well, these are like industrial versions of those are like industrial versions of those are like industrial versions of those drugs. So, and you see spraying. You saw drugs. So, and you see spraying. You saw drugs. So, and you see spraying. You saw that I remember when COVID happened in that I remember when COVID happened in that I remember when COVID happened in Iran, they were there were trucks going Iran, they were there were trucks going Iran, they were there were trucks going down the street with hoses and and down the street with hoses and and down the street with hoses and and people were just spraying, you know, people were just spraying, you know, people were just spraying, you know, government of people were spraying the government of people were spraying the government of people were spraying the streets streets streets with an unknown chemical. We I don't with an unknown chemical. We I don't with an unknown chemical. We I don't know what it was. I'm sure somebody in know what it was. I'm sure somebody in know what it was. I'm sure somebody in the the the you know, intelligence community knows. you know, intelligence community knows. you know, intelligence community knows. You can do that in a You can do that in a You can do that in a totalitarian-esque country because totalitarian-esque country because totalitarian-esque country because no one has a say. You can't do that here no one has a say. You can't do that here no one has a say. You can't do that here in Austin. People would be like they in Austin. People would be like they in Austin. People would be like they would freak out. would freak out. would freak out. >> Yeah. Yeah. >> Yeah. Yeah. >> Yeah. Yeah. >> But the in a place like Russia, you >> But the in a place like Russia, you >> But the in a place like Russia, you could do that and that's being looked could do that and that's being looked could do that and that's being looked at. So, I take the reader through these at. So, I take the reader through these at. So, I take the reader through these different you know, you see this entire different you know, you see this entire different you know, you see this entire billion-dollar industry go into effect billion-dollar industry go into effect billion-dollar industry go into effect to try and determine has there been a to try and determine has there been a to try and determine has there been a lab leak? Are people dying? lab leak? Are people dying? lab leak? Are people dying? >> Uh-huh. Uh-huh. >> Uh-huh. Uh-huh. >> Uh-huh. Uh-huh. >> And if so, how much? >> And if so, how much? >> And if so, how much? >> But the number one thing that has to be >> But the number one thing that has to be >> But the number one thing that has to be identified is what is the pathogen. Is identified is what is the pathogen. Is identified is what is the pathogen. Is it a virus? Is it a bacteria? Very it a virus? Is it a bacteria? Very it a virus? Is it a bacteria? Very interesting distinction that most people interesting distinction that most people interesting distinction that most people don't know. A pathogen is a germ that don't know. A pathogen is a germ that don't know. A pathogen is a germ that will kill you. Germs are germs. We all will kill you. Germs are germs. We all will kill you. Germs are germs. We all have germs germs in our guts. But a have germs germs in our guts. But a have germs germs in our guts. But a pathogen is a dangerous deadly germ, pathogen is a dangerous deadly germ, pathogen is a dangerous deadly germ, potentially. Potentially virus, potentially. Potentially virus, potentially. Potentially virus, bacteria. bacteria. bacteria. Plague is bacteria, not virus. Plague is bacteria, not virus. Plague is bacteria, not virus. >> Right. >> Right. >> Right. >> What's more deadly? >> What's more deadly? >> What's more deadly? >> It depends. I mean, plague without um a >> It depends. I mean, plague without um a >> It depends. I mean, plague without um a flu is a virus. You get the flu, it's flu is a virus. You get the flu, it's flu is a virus. You get the flu, it's not it's the case fatality rate is .1. not it's the case fatality rate is .1. not it's the case fatality rate is .1. It's not that deadly. You get plague It's not that deadly. You get plague It's not that deadly. You get plague that's genetically modified to evade that's genetically modified to evade that's genetically modified to evade antibiotics, antibiotics, antibiotics, it's 100% death. it's 100% death. it's 100% death. >> Uh-huh. >> Uh-huh. >> Uh-huh. >> So, >> So, >> So, it it depends. it it depends. it it depends. >> What's the most deadly virus in your >> What's the most deadly virus in your >> What's the most deadly virus in your world? world? world? >> I mean, Ebola is >> I mean, Ebola is >> I mean, Ebola is Ebola, Marburg, Nipah, they're up there Ebola, Marburg, Nipah, they're up there Ebola, Marburg, Nipah, they're up there in terms of if you get Ebola, in terms of if you get Ebola, in terms of if you get Ebola, your chances of living are very low. your chances of living are very low. your chances of living are very low. Now, Now, Now, medical countermeasures have been medical countermeasures have been medical countermeasures have been developed developed developed from the 2014 variant of Ebola. from the 2014 variant of Ebola. from the 2014 variant of Ebola. There's a There's a medical There's a There's a medical There's a There's a medical countermeasure called ZMapp, and it was countermeasure called ZMapp, and it was countermeasure called ZMapp, and it was given to two nurses in Texas, for given to two nurses in Texas, for given to two nurses in Texas, for example, that I write a little vignette example, that I write a little vignette example, that I write a little vignette in the book about it. And that was a in the book about it. And that was a in the book about it. And that was a medical countermeasure, and they did not medical countermeasure, and they did not medical countermeasure, and they did not die of COVID. die of COVID. die of COVID. The host died, didn't have it. But the The host died, didn't have it. But the The host died, didn't have it. But the mutated version of Ebola that we're mutated version of Ebola that we're mutated version of Ebola that we're seeing right now in the Congo, seeing right now in the Congo, seeing right now in the Congo, ZMapp doesn't work because it's a ZMapp doesn't work because it's a ZMapp doesn't work because it's a variant. variant. variant. >> Right. >> Right. >> Right. >> No reason to believe it's genetically >> No reason to believe it's genetically >> No reason to believe it's genetically modified. Mother nature does it her own modified. Mother nature does it her own modified. Mother nature does it her own modifications. modifications. modifications. That's the nature of evolution. That's the nature of evolution. That's the nature of evolution. >> We talked about uh incubation period. Am >> We talked about uh incubation period. Am >> We talked about uh incubation period. Am I right in saying that that is the I right in saying that that is the I right in saying that that is the amount of time that somebody can be amount of time that somebody can be amount of time that somebody can be exposed and it's in their system before exposed and it's in their system before exposed and it's in their system before they show or feel symptoms? Is that they show or feel symptoms? Is that they show or feel symptoms? Is that correct? correct? correct? >> Absolutely. Yes. >> Absolutely. Yes. >> Absolutely. Yes. >> Okay. >> Okay. >> Okay. In your scenario, how long is that In your scenario, how long is that In your scenario, how long is that incubation period? incubation period? incubation period? >> It's very small. It's very squishy, >> It's very small. It's very squishy, >> It's very small. It's very squishy, meaning one to three days depending on meaning one to three days depending on meaning one to three days depending on your dosage. So, I told you the guy who your dosage. So, I told you the guy who your dosage. So, I told you the guy who gave CPR to the infected person, that's gave CPR to the infected person, that's gave CPR to the infected person, that's a short incubation time. The person a short incubation time. The person a short incubation time. The person who's, you know, germaphobic and stayed who's, you know, germaphobic and stayed who's, you know, germaphobic and stayed back back back and the aerosolization of it got a and the aerosolization of it got a and the aerosolization of it got a different dose, maybe a little bit different dose, maybe a little bit different dose, maybe a little bit longer. longer. longer. >> Is there such a thing as a sort of dose >> Is there such a thing as a sort of dose >> Is there such a thing as a sort of dose responsiveness with responsiveness with responsiveness with virus or plague? virus or plague? virus or plague? >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Uh that um how much of it do you need to >> Uh that um how much of it do you need to >> Uh that um how much of it do you need to be exposed to before it reaches critical be exposed to before it reaches critical be exposed to before it reaches critical mass to then be able to infect you? mass to then be able to infect you? mass to then be able to infect you? >> That's a terrific question and I was >> That's a terrific question and I was >> That's a terrific question and I was shocked by I asked that same question, shocked by I asked that same question, shocked by I asked that same question, too. So, there's a guy in the book too. So, there's a guy in the book too. So, there's a guy in the book called Dr. Henry Heim and he is one of called Dr. Henry Heim and he is one of called Dr. Henry Heim and he is one of the world's experts on plague. He spent the world's experts on plague. He spent the world's experts on plague. He spent his entire life studying plague and his entire life studying plague and his entire life studying plague and creating medical countermeasures for creating medical countermeasures for creating medical countermeasures for plague. He worked at USAMRIID, which is plague. He worked at USAMRIID, which is plague. He worked at USAMRIID, which is the Defense Department's only BSL-4 lab. the Defense Department's only BSL-4 lab. the Defense Department's only BSL-4 lab. He worked there during the anthrax and I He worked there during the anthrax and I He worked there during the anthrax and I asked him that question and he said to asked him that question and he said to asked him that question and he said to me, me, me, "Okay, so for example, with plague, "Okay, so for example, with plague, "Okay, so for example, with plague, 40,000 40,000 40,000 plague particles fit on the head of a plague particles fit on the head of a plague particles fit on the head of a pin. pin. pin. >> Uh-huh. >> Uh-huh. >> Uh-huh. >> So, that's how That's how tiny they are. >> So, that's how That's how tiny they are. >> So, that's how That's how tiny they are. Very low dosage, like 100, 500, 1,000, Very low dosage, like 100, 500, 1,000, Very low dosage, like 100, 500, 1,000, you got it. Okay? you got it. Okay? you got it. Okay? >> Wow. >> Wow. >> Wow. >> Now, this is what really blew my mind >> Now, this is what really blew my mind >> Now, this is what really blew my mind when Heim told me this, Dr. Heim told me when Heim told me this, Dr. Heim told me when Heim told me this, Dr. Heim told me this. this. this. He said, "Just to circle back to how how He said, "Just to circle back to how how He said, "Just to circle back to how how little is known about so many pathogens. little is known about so many pathogens. little is known about so many pathogens. Today, Today, Today, with all the billions of people around with all the billions of people around with all the billions of people around the world infected with COVID, hundreds the world infected with COVID, hundreds the world infected with COVID, hundreds of millions or billions, depending who of millions or billions, depending who of millions or billions, depending who you're asking, you're asking, you're asking, we still do not know we still do not know we still do not know how many p- how many p- how many p- SARS-CoV-2 particles, that's the virus, SARS-CoV-2 particles, that's the virus, SARS-CoV-2 particles, that's the virus, we don't know how many we don't know how many we don't know how many >> Take the critical mass of >> Take the critical mass of >> Take the critical mass of >> We don't know. We don't There's not an >> We don't know. We don't There's not an >> We don't know. We don't There's not an agreed-upon number. agreed-upon number. agreed-upon number. >> Okay, so you actually chose something >> Okay, so you actually chose something >> Okay, so you actually chose something that has a relatively short incubation that has a relatively short incubation that has a relatively short incubation window. Is incubation window and window. Is incubation window and window. Is incubation window and lethality usually correlated? Does lethality usually correlated? Does lethality usually correlated? Does something with a longer incubation something with a longer incubation something with a longer incubation window tend to be less lethal? window tend to be less lethal? window tend to be less lethal? >> Another great question and one that >> Another great question and one that >> Another great question and one that every By the way, the questions you're every By the way, the questions you're every By the way, the questions you're asking are questions that everybody asking are questions that everybody asking are questions that everybody should ask and know and that is like should ask and know and that is like should ask and know and that is like sort of a sliding us toward a hopeful sort of a sliding us toward a hopeful sort of a sliding us toward a hopeful situation because you can understand how situation because you can understand how situation because you can understand how complex some of these issues are and complex some of these issues are and complex some of these issues are and they have to be thought through and they have to be thought through and they have to be thought through and public health officials don't know public health officials don't know public health officials don't know everything and the defense department everything and the defense department everything and the defense department doesn't know everything and doesn't know everything and doesn't know everything and >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> So So your question was >> So So your question was >> So So your question was one more time. one more time. one more time. >> Incubation window and lethality. Are >> Incubation window and lethality. Are >> Incubation window and lethality. Are they usually correlated? My reason being they usually correlated? My reason being they usually correlated? My reason being you've chosen I've played What's that you've chosen I've played What's that you've chosen I've played What's that game? Plague Plague Inc. game? Plague Plague Inc. game? Plague Plague Inc. >> on mobile? Did you play that? >> on mobile? Did you play that? >> on mobile? Did you play that? >> about this. >> about this. >> about this. >> You don't know about this? Double check. >> You don't know about this? Double check. >> You don't know about this? Double check. Can you chat GPT for me, Jared, and see Can you chat GPT for me, Jared, and see Can you chat GPT for me, Jared, and see if it's called Plague Inc.? I'm pretty if it's called Plague Inc.? I'm pretty if it's called Plague Inc.? I'm pretty sure mobile game. It's one of the sure mobile game. It's one of the sure mobile game. It's one of the biggest games of all time and in it you biggest games of all time and in it you biggest games of all time and in it you design a design a design a plague. You design the incubation plague. You design the incubation plague. You design the incubation window, the transmission. Uh you should window, the transmission. Uh you should window, the transmission. Uh you should partner with these guys. I Why that partner with these guys. I Why that partner with these guys. I Why that would be kind of morbid. Um would be kind of morbid. Um would be kind of morbid. Um Anyway, uh Anyway, uh Anyway, uh >> Okay. >> Okay. >> Okay. >> One of the things that I know you want >> One of the things that I know you want >> One of the things that I know you want is a long incubation window cuz if is a long incubation window cuz if is a long incubation window cuz if you've got a long incu- incubation you've got a long incu- incubation you've got a long incu- incubation window, people can be transmitting window, people can be transmitting window, people can be transmitting without knowing that they're sick. without knowing that they're sick. without knowing that they're sick. >> You chose uh like >> You chose uh like >> You chose uh like >> you stacked the deck ag- against >> you stacked the deck ag- against >> you stacked the deck ag- against >> Yes. >> Yes. >> Yes. >> the global lethality of your virus in >> the global lethality of your virus in >> the global lethality of your virus in this book because you said 1 to 3 days. this book because you said 1 to 3 days. this book because you said 1 to 3 days. That's not that much. Some are 14 days. That's not that much. Some are 14 days. That's not that much. Some are 14 days. >> Yes. >> Yes. >> Yes. >> Is Ebola is quite a long time, I think. >> Is Ebola is quite a long time, I think. >> Is Ebola is quite a long time, I think. >> Yes and again they There it's squishy. >> Yes and again they There it's squishy. >> Yes and again they There it's squishy. It could be several weeks but and also It could be several weeks but and also It could be several weeks but and also to your point, if it's a short incu- to your point, if it's a short incu- to your point, if it's a short incu- incubation period, it often has a incubation period, it often has a incubation period, it often has a burnout factor. So it's just in other burnout factor. So it's just in other burnout factor. So it's just in other words, the person dies really quickly. words, the person dies really quickly. words, the person dies really quickly. >> Yes, that's the the exact point. Yeah, >> Yes, that's the the exact point. Yeah, >> Yes, that's the the exact point. Yeah, short incubation window, lethality comes short incubation window, lethality comes short incubation window, lethality comes on quickly. Therefore, they don't have on quickly. Therefore, they don't have on quickly. Therefore, they don't have time to transmit it and you went for time to transmit it and you went for time to transmit it and you went for that. Right? So you've actually stacked that. Right? So you've actually stacked that. Right? So you've actually stacked the deck against you. You could have the the deck against you. You could have the the deck against you. You could have the plague and you could extend the plague and you could extend the plague and you could extend the incubation window out by 7 days. That's incubation window out by 7 days. That's incubation window out by 7 days. That's 7 days, 7 days, 7 days, uh asymptomatic, unaware that you've uh asymptomatic, unaware that you've uh asymptomatic, unaware that you've been exposed to it, but still been exposed to it, but still been exposed to it, but still transmitting it. And that's where you transmitting it. And that's where you transmitting it. And that's where you get these real super spreader events. get these real super spreader events. get these real super spreader events. >> Yes, and I'm going to go back to why I >> Yes, and I'm going to go back to why I >> Yes, and I'm going to go back to why I specifically chose that, and it's really specifically chose that, and it's really specifically chose that, and it's really creepy, okay? But before I do that, let creepy, okay? But before I do that, let creepy, okay? But before I do that, let >> I'm not creeped out yet. >> I'm not creeped out yet. >> I'm not creeped out yet. >> Okay, let me tell you about one other >> Okay, let me tell you about one other >> Okay, let me tell you about one other point to your point about long point to your point about long point to your point about long incubation period. There's also been incubation period. There's also been incubation period. There's also been an asymptomatic carrier. an asymptomatic carrier. an asymptomatic carrier. So, people we knew we all know them who So, people we knew we all know them who So, people we knew we all know them who never got COVID, or who actually tested never got COVID, or who actually tested never got COVID, or who actually tested positive for COVID and were simply not positive for COVID and were simply not positive for COVID and were simply not sick. sick. sick. And that's being an asymptomatic And that's being an asymptomatic And that's being an asymptomatic carrier, meaning you just don't show carrier, meaning you just don't show carrier, meaning you just don't show signs of the symptom. It doesn't affect signs of the symptom. It doesn't affect signs of the symptom. It doesn't affect your physiology the way it affects your physiology the way it affects your physiology the way it affects others. others. others. >> This particular strain at this >> This particular strain at this >> This particular strain at this particular time, you didn't get sick. particular time, you didn't get sick. particular time, you didn't get sick. >> And for example, this was a shocking >> And for example, this was a shocking >> And for example, this was a shocking fact I learned, polio. I mean, I just fact I learned, polio. I mean, I just fact I learned, polio. I mean, I just thought you got polio, you're paralyzed. thought you got polio, you're paralyzed. thought you got polio, you're paralyzed. >> Mhm. >> Mhm. >> Mhm. >> Polio, >> Polio, >> Polio, only 1% of carriers only 1% of carriers only 1% of carriers actually actually actually develop polio symptoms. develop polio symptoms. develop polio symptoms. >> Wow. >> Wow. >> Wow. >> I mean, >> I mean, >> I mean, why did I choose plague? I chose it for why did I choose plague? I chose it for why did I choose plague? I chose it for an incredibly sinister reason that is an incredibly sinister reason that is an incredibly sinister reason that is based in science, because I I am a based in science, because I I am a based in science, because I I am a non-fiction author. non-fiction author. non-fiction author. Biological warfare scenario was sold in Biological warfare scenario was sold in Biological warfare scenario was sold in the non-fiction section. the non-fiction section. the non-fiction section. >> [gasps] >> [gasps] >> [gasps] >> The Soviets, and this is what Dr. Hein >> The Soviets, and this is what Dr. Hein >> The Soviets, and this is what Dr. Hein told me, told me, told me, part of the Soviets super plague weapon part of the Soviets super plague weapon part of the Soviets super plague weapon they were working on, they were working on, they were working on, is they engineered into is they engineered into is they engineered into the Yersinia pestis bacteria the Yersinia pestis bacteria the Yersinia pestis bacteria a gene for euphoria. a gene for euphoria. a gene for euphoria. Stay with me here. Stay with me here. Stay with me here. You for You for You for You get plague, you get flu, you get You get plague, you get flu, you get You get plague, you get flu, you get sick, you go home, and you get under the sick, you go home, and you get under the sick, you go home, and you get under the covers. covers. covers. And you do not infect as many people as And you do not infect as many people as And you do not infect as many people as you would because you would because you would because >> Lassitude. Yeah. >> Lassitude. Yeah. >> Lassitude. Yeah. >> They infected a gene for euphoria, >> They infected a gene for euphoria, >> They infected a gene for euphoria, because they wanted people to be If you because they wanted people to be If you because they wanted people to be If you you have euphoria, you might you want to you have euphoria, you might you want to you have euphoria, you might you want to go to a disco. go to a disco. go to a disco. >> Wow. >> Wow. >> Wow. >> And when what Hind told me that that >> And when what Hind told me that that >> And when what Hind told me that that really sort of freaked out these Samarit really sort of freaked out these Samarit really sort of freaked out these Samarit doctors and scientists and said that is doctors and scientists and said that is doctors and scientists and said that is straight-up evil that you would actually straight-up evil that you would actually straight-up evil that you would actually think that through. And that's why I think that through. And that's why I think that through. And that's why I chose that because I wanted it to have chose that because I wanted it to have chose that because I wanted it to have an analogy in the real world. an analogy in the real world. an analogy in the real world. >> So does yours have the euphoria thing in >> So does yours have the euphoria thing in >> So does yours have the euphoria thing in it? it? it? >> Absolutely. It is genetically modified >> Absolutely. It is genetically modified >> Absolutely. It is genetically modified to have euphoria. So the first 24 hours to have euphoria. So the first 24 hours to have euphoria. So the first 24 hours people are spent euphoric and they only people are spent euphoric and they only people are spent euphoric and they only essentially collapse into the disease essentially collapse into the disease essentially collapse into the disease when the euphoria wears off and now when the euphoria wears off and now when the euphoria wears off and now they're shedding they're shedding they're shedding >> Mhm. >> Mhm. >> Mhm. >> bacteria. >> bacteria. >> bacteria. They're infecting people like nobody's They're infecting people like nobody's They're infecting people like nobody's business and they've been at places like business and they've been at places like business and they've been at places like discos. discos. discos. >> Mhm. >> Mhm. >> Mhm. Okay, so you got a bunch of happy people Okay, so you got a bunch of happy people Okay, so you got a bunch of happy people dancing around. How does that dancing around. How does that dancing around. How does that transmission chain begin in your book? transmission chain begin in your book? transmission chain begin in your book? >> The transmission chain begins I'm I'm >> The transmission chain begins I'm I'm >> The transmission chain begins I'm I'm not going to totally spoiler alert all not going to totally spoiler alert all not going to totally spoiler alert all my plot points but outbreak in in my plot points but outbreak in in my plot points but outbreak in in in Siberia. in Siberia. in Siberia. You happen to have a group of You happen to have a group of You happen to have a group of international hunters international hunters international hunters who come across a scientist. who come across a scientist. who come across a scientist. When they get on their planes When they get on their planes When they get on their planes to go home to five or six of the seven to go home to five or six of the seven to go home to five or six of the seven continents continents continents >> in a great mood. >> in a great mood. >> in a great mood. >> In a fantastic mood. >> In a fantastic mood. >> In a fantastic mood. One of them shot a wolf. One of them shot a wolf. One of them shot a wolf. You know. You know. You know. And uh And uh And uh there begins the spreading. there begins the spreading. there begins the spreading. >> Mhm. >> Mhm. >> Mhm. >> I also have a scientist that goes to a >> I also have a scientist that goes to a >> I also have a scientist that goes to a priest to confess what he's done. priest to confess what he's done. priest to confess what he's done. And And And a person there a person there a person there gets infected who is a student at UCLA, gets infected who is a student at UCLA, gets infected who is a student at UCLA, gets on a plane and is immediately in gets on a plane and is immediately in gets on a plane and is immediately in Los Angeles. So the outbreak Los Angeles. So the outbreak Los Angeles. So the outbreak spoiler alert here but this you learn spoiler alert here but this you learn spoiler alert here but this you learn this pretty much in the beginning. The this pretty much in the beginning. The this pretty much in the beginning. The outbreak happens in Los Angeles outbreak happens in Los Angeles outbreak happens in Los Angeles in a homeless camp because I learned in a homeless camp because I learned in a homeless camp because I learned from all the epidemiologists that I work from all the epidemiologists that I work from all the epidemiologists that I work with with with that that that that homeless population is so that homeless population is so that homeless population is so incredibly dangerous to public health incredibly dangerous to public health incredibly dangerous to public health epidemics. epidemics. epidemics. >> Why? >> Why? >> Why? >> [snorts] >> [snorts] >> [snorts] >> After 9/11, the CDC created a nationwide >> After 9/11, the CDC created a nationwide >> After 9/11, the CDC created a nationwide syndromic surveillance system called syndromic surveillance system called syndromic surveillance system called BioSense. BioSense. BioSense. So you have 7,000 more than 7,000 So you have 7,000 more than 7,000 So you have 7,000 more than 7,000 hospitals, urgent care facilities, hospitals, urgent care facilities, hospitals, urgent care facilities, emergency rooms ex emergency rooms ex emergency rooms ex feeding information to the CDC in real feeding information to the CDC in real feeding information to the CDC in real time time time about an outbreak so that an outbreak about an outbreak so that an outbreak about an outbreak so that an outbreak stops before it becomes an epidemic, stops before it becomes an epidemic, stops before it becomes an epidemic, before it becomes a pandemic. before it becomes a pandemic. before it becomes a pandemic. >> Mhm. >> Mhm. >> Mhm. >> America's 800,000 homeless people >> America's 800,000 homeless people >> America's 800,000 homeless people are not part of that system. are not part of that system. are not part of that system. All of the epidemiologists I talked to All of the epidemiologists I talked to All of the epidemiologists I talked to spoke of their great fear about spoke of their great fear about spoke of their great fear about transmission occurring in that kind of a transmission occurring in that kind of a transmission occurring in that kind of a situation. situation. situation. >> And >> And >> And Los Angeles is kind of ground zero for Los Angeles is kind of ground zero for Los Angeles is kind of ground zero for that. that. that. >> We have 75,000 homeless people. >> We have 75,000 homeless people. >> We have 75,000 homeless people. We have 4,000 homeless people on Skid We have 4,000 homeless people on Skid We have 4,000 homeless people on Skid Row Row Row with no health care, with no with no health care, with no with no health care, with no facilities. facilities. facilities. >> we're way past >> we're way past >> we're way past the time where America could have just the time where America could have just the time where America could have just nuked the host country. nuked the host country. nuked the host country. >> We're at >> We're at >> We're at hour 24:36. hour 24:36. hour 24:36. Absolutely. I mean, you know, Absolutely. I mean, you know, Absolutely. I mean, you know, containment is possible. You could if containment is possible. You could if containment is possible. You could if you had if you had transparency from the you had if you had transparency from the you had if you had transparency from the host nation, right? If Russia asked in host nation, right? If Russia asked in host nation, right? If Russia asked in my scenario. my scenario. my scenario. >> by them though. There's no time you >> by them though. There's no time you >> by them though. There's no time you can't even get to Russia in the amount can't even get to Russia in the amount can't even get to Russia in the amount of time you need to contain it. So it's of time you need to contain it. So it's of time you need to contain it. So it's in time. in time. in time. >> people in Russia. >> people in Russia. >> people in Russia. >> Oh, you're right. Yeah, yeah, yeah. >> Oh, you're right. Yeah, yeah, yeah. >> Oh, you're right. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Fair, but Fair, but Fair, but you don't have you're right, the you don't have you're right, the you don't have you're right, the resources to be able to galvanize resources to be able to galvanize resources to be able to galvanize 100,000 hazmat suit-wearing special 100,000 hazmat suit-wearing special 100,000 hazmat suit-wearing special forces people to go and say hey, stay in forces people to go and say hey, stay in forces people to go and say hey, stay in this area and you know, set up this area and you know, set up this area and you know, set up barricades and and sentry checkpoints barricades and and sentry checkpoints barricades and and sentry checkpoints and all that sort of stuff. and all that sort of stuff. and all that sort of stuff. >> Although, we actually do. Like, if you >> Although, we actually do. Like, if you >> Although, we actually do. Like, if you could contain something before it could contain something before it could contain something before it balloons and becomes huge. And this is balloons and becomes huge. And this is balloons and becomes huge. And this is the same in the United States. I take the same in the United States. I take the same in the United States. I take the reader through Once the outbreak the reader through Once the outbreak the reader through Once the outbreak happens, you learn. You know, we have a happens, you learn. You know, we have a happens, you learn. You know, we have a force or force or force or it's called a CBRN response force here it's called a CBRN response force here it's called a CBRN response force here in the United States. Chem Those are in the United States. Chem Those are in the United States. Chem Those are That's the WMD. Chemical, biological, That's the WMD. Chemical, biological, That's the WMD. Chemical, biological, radiological, nuclear. They all train radiological, nuclear. They all train radiological, nuclear. They all train the same We have 18,000 the same We have 18,000 the same We have 18,000 individuals that are ready to go at all individuals that are ready to go at all individuals that are ready to go at all times. times. times. >> But, they wouldn't that 18,000 people >> But, they wouldn't that 18,000 people >> But, they wouldn't that 18,000 people are in America. are in America. are in America. >> Yes. >> Yes. >> Yes. >> So, it is on the host nation. >> So, it is on the host nation. >> So, it is on the host nation. >> Yes. >> Yes. >> Yes. >> It is on the host nation. >> It is on the host nation. >> It is on the host nation. >> And Russia has those same Their troops >> And Russia has those same Their troops >> And Russia has those same Their troops are called Arkabaza. They have those are called Arkabaza. They have those are called Arkabaza. They have those troops, too, and they could deploy them. troops, too, and they could deploy them. troops, too, and they could deploy them. And they do, and that's what happens in And they do, and that's what happens in And they do, and that's what happens in the scenario. Once we see they've the scenario. Once we see they've the scenario. Once we see they've deployed those troops, we know. But, now deployed those troops, we know. But, now deployed those troops, we know. But, now it's too late. it's too late. it's too late. >> Right. Right. >> Right. Right. >> Right. Right. >> Now, the cat's out of the bag. >> Now, the cat's out of the bag. >> Now, the cat's out of the bag. >> Right. So, speed from a containment >> Right. So, speed from a containment >> Right. So, speed from a containment perspective, from a from a perspective, from a from a perspective, from a from a restriction of how lethal this could be, restriction of how lethal this could be, restriction of how lethal this could be, speed of containment is speed of containment is speed of containment is >> everything. >> everything. >> everything. >> Paramount? Most important? >> Paramount? Most important? >> Paramount? Most important? >> Everything. >> Everything. >> Everything. Everything. And it could be stopped. And Everything. And it could be stopped. And Everything. And it could be stopped. And then you have the same situation in the then you have the same situation in the then you have the same situation in the United States where it could be stopped. United States where it could be stopped. United States where it could be stopped. But, this is where we get into your But, this is where we get into your But, this is where we get into your brilliant analogy, which is that no one brilliant analogy, which is that no one brilliant analogy, which is that no one trusts the system. trusts the system. trusts the system. And that's where you see in the scenario And that's where you see in the scenario And that's where you see in the scenario that I write, everything breaks down. that I write, everything breaks down. that I write, everything breaks down. And to have learned as I did that what And to have learned as I did that what And to have learned as I did that what really really really makes the Defense Department extremely makes the Defense Department extremely makes the Defense Department extremely uneasy is not necessarily the original uneasy is not necessarily the original uneasy is not necessarily the original outbreak, but the secondary effect of outbreak, but the secondary effect of outbreak, but the secondary effect of anarchy and insurrection that happens in anarchy and insurrection that happens in anarchy and insurrection that happens in response. response. response. >> When does devolution happen? >> When does devolution happen? >> When does devolution happen? >> So, >> So, >> So, in the scenario I write because we're in the scenario I write because we're in the scenario I write because we're dealing with plague, which is fast. It's dealing with plague, which is fast. It's dealing with plague, which is fast. It's a fast killer. a fast killer. a fast killer. I take the reader from outbreak I take the reader from outbreak I take the reader from outbreak to anarchy in 6 days. to anarchy in 6 days. to anarchy in 6 days. That is how fast it happens. And on day That is how fast it happens. And on day That is how fast it happens. And on day six, we have devolution. Devolution. six, we have devolution. Devolution. six, we have devolution. Devolution. >> Okay. Well, we'll get In that case, >> Okay. Well, we'll get In that case, >> Okay. Well, we'll get In that case, we'll get to that. Uh so, homeless we'll get to that. Uh so, homeless we'll get to that. Uh so, homeless encampment, LA student get UCLA student encampment, LA student get UCLA student encampment, LA student get UCLA student goes back. goes back. goes back. LA's not great, densely populated. LA's not great, densely populated. LA's not great, densely populated. >> He's a pre-med student and he does pro >> He's a pre-med student and he does pro >> He's a pre-med student and he does pro bono work. bono work. bono work. There at the at Skid Row. >> Which is literally the worst place for >> Which is literally the worst place for him to be. him to be. him to be. >> And he gives, you know, that's a super >> And he gives, you know, that's a super >> And he gives, you know, that's a super spreader event. Those homeless camps are spreader event. Those homeless camps are spreader event. Those homeless camps are super spreader events and that's what super spreader events and that's what super spreader events and that's what happens. happens. happens. >> This episode is brought to you by Whoop. >> This episode is brought to you by Whoop. >> This episode is brought to you by Whoop. 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Right now, you can get the brand new Whoop 5.0 and that get the brand new Whoop 5.0 and that get the brand new Whoop 5.0 and that 30-day free trial by going to the link 30-day free trial by going to the link 30-day free trial by going to the link in the description below or heading to in the description below or heading to in the description below or heading to join.whoop.com/modernwisdom. join.whoop.com/modernwisdom. join.whoop.com/modernwisdom. That's join.whoop.com/ That's join.whoop.com/ That's join.whoop.com/ modernwisdom. modernwisdom. modernwisdom. Modern wisdom. What What are the Modern wisdom. What What are the Modern wisdom. What What are the contributing elements or the contributing elements or the contributing elements or the characteristics of a super spreader characteristics of a super spreader characteristics of a super spreader event? High density. event? High density. event? High density. >> Yeah. Poor poor >> Yeah. Poor poor >> Yeah. Poor poor poor air flow. poor air flow. poor air flow. >> Right. >> Right. >> Right. >> So you got, you know, tents. >> So you got, you know, tents. >> So you got, you know, tents. >> good air flow if you're in a >> good air flow if you're in a >> good air flow if you're in a >> tents. >> tents. >> tents. >> outdoor environment if you're under a >> outdoor environment if you're under a >> outdoor environment if you're under a bridge. bridge. bridge. >> Uh, it's tents. It's inside tents. >> Uh, it's tents. It's inside tents. >> Uh, it's tents. It's inside tents. Right. more than anything what you have Right. more than anything what you have Right. more than anything what you have is a very serious problem. First of all, is a very serious problem. First of all, is a very serious problem. First of all, you know, you've got free clinics. I you know, you've got free clinics. I you know, you've got free clinics. I mean, I spent quite a bit of time down mean, I spent quite a bit of time down mean, I spent quite a bit of time down on Skid Row interviewing people about on Skid Row interviewing people about on Skid Row interviewing people about this. Um this. Um this. Um and you've got you know, no public and you've got you know, no public and you've got you know, no public health care. You've got long, long lines health care. You've got long, long lines health care. You've got long, long lines for these free clinics. for these free clinics. for these free clinics. And you have first responders. You have And you have first responders. You have And you have first responders. You have these brilliant nurses and doctors who these brilliant nurses and doctors who these brilliant nurses and doctors who work down there, a lot of them pro bono work down there, a lot of them pro bono work down there, a lot of them pro bono also, also, also, diagnosing people. You're trying to diagnosing people. You're trying to diagnosing people. You're trying to differentiate between fentanyl differentiate between fentanyl differentiate between fentanyl overdosing, you know, tuberculosis, overdosing, you know, tuberculosis, overdosing, you know, tuberculosis, flu and acute flu, real serious problems flu and acute flu, real serious problems flu and acute flu, real serious problems that almost every homeless person has, that almost every homeless person has, that almost every homeless person has, physical health problems, with what physical health problems, with what physical health problems, with what looks like a bad cold. looks like a bad cold. looks like a bad cold. >> Mhm. >> Mhm. >> Mhm. >> And you know, coughing up blood, >> And you know, coughing up blood, >> And you know, coughing up blood, another, you know, mistaken for another, you know, mistaken for another, you know, mistaken for alcoholism. So, I take the reader alcoholism. So, I take the reader alcoholism. So, I take the reader through the science of this so that you through the science of this so that you through the science of this so that you can really see the close proximity of can really see the close proximity of can really see the close proximity of alarmism and there's nothing wrong here. alarmism and there's nothing wrong here. alarmism and there's nothing wrong here. >> Which everybody wants to do. They want >> Which everybody wants to do. They want >> Which everybody wants to do. They want to reassure to reassure to reassure populace. They want to try and stave off populace. They want to try and stave off populace. They want to try and stave off the anarchy and the civilizational the anarchy and the civilizational the anarchy and the civilizational citizenry collapse. citizenry collapse. citizenry collapse. But also by doing that, you But also by doing that, you But also by doing that, you don't galvanize the sort of response don't galvanize the sort of response don't galvanize the sort of response that you need to stop it from happening. that you need to stop it from happening. that you need to stop it from happening. >> And when you do galvanize it, what was >> And when you do galvanize it, what was >> And when you do galvanize it, what was really the most surprising to me was really the most surprising to me was really the most surprising to me was that once that once that once once so the once the Defense Department once so the once the Defense Department once so the once the Defense Department goes from what's called warnord, that's goes from what's called warnord, that's goes from what's called warnord, that's a warning order, a warning order, a warning order, to exord, which is execution order, to exord, which is execution order, to exord, which is execution order, right? That's like get ready to go and right? That's like get ready to go and right? That's like get ready to go and go with guys in biohazard suits go with guys in biohazard suits go with guys in biohazard suits to try to mitigate damage. It's too to try to mitigate damage. It's too to try to mitigate damage. It's too late. late. late. It's too late and I was really stunned It's too late and I was really stunned It's too late and I was really stunned to learn that at that point, the pivot to learn that at that point, the pivot to learn that at that point, the pivot is not let's try and protect the is not let's try and protect the is not let's try and protect the population, it's let's we need to population, it's let's we need to population, it's let's we need to protect critical infrastructure. protect critical infrastructure. protect critical infrastructure. >> What does critical infrastructure >> What does critical infrastructure >> What does critical infrastructure consist of? consist of? consist of? >> Everything that keeps society running, >> Everything that keeps society running, >> Everything that keeps society running, roads, water systems, roads, water systems, roads, water systems, um of course nuclear power plant, every um of course nuclear power plant, every um of course nuclear power plant, every single DOD facility. And that's where single DOD facility. And that's where single DOD facility. And that's where those initially the 18,000 those initially the 18,000 those initially the 18,000 CBRN forces in their suits and their gas CBRN forces in their suits and their gas CBRN forces in their suits and their gas masks go. And then the entire Defense masks go. And then the entire Defense masks go. And then the entire Defense Department gets deployed. And what's Department gets deployed. And what's Department gets deployed. And what's really shocking me is again, this is not really shocking me is again, this is not really shocking me is again, this is not Annie's imagination. These are war Annie's imagination. These are war Annie's imagination. These are war gaming gaming gaming situations that are gamed out. There's a situations that are gamed out. There's a situations that are gamed out. There's a lot of classified ones, which have been lot of classified ones, which have been lot of classified ones, which have been alluded to me. There's a lot of alluded to me. There's a lot of alluded to me. There's a lot of unclassified ones. unclassified ones. unclassified ones. And what's fascinating is all all the And what's fascinating is all all the And what's fascinating is all all the unclassified ones or these public health unclassified ones or these public health unclassified ones or these public health officials do these um, officials do these um, officials do these um, biological war game scenarios or rather biological war game scenarios or rather biological war game scenarios or rather pandemic scenarios is what they call pandemic scenarios is what they call pandemic scenarios is what they call them. them. them. And actually bio also where the weapons And actually bio also where the weapons And actually bio also where the weapons are deployed, and they always end are deployed, and they always end are deployed, and they always end right where we're talking about now. right where we're talking about now. right where we're talking about now. >> Mhm. >> Mhm. >> Mhm. >> They always everybody gets sick, anarchy >> They always everybody gets sick, anarchy >> They always everybody gets sick, anarchy starts to happen, millions of people or starts to happen, millions of people or starts to happen, millions of people or tens of millions of people are dying, tens of millions of people are dying, tens of millions of people are dying, and then the game's over. and then the game's over. and then the game's over. And And And that is where I begin when I was that is where I begin when I was that is where I begin when I was reporting this, you know, back in time, reporting this, you know, back in time, reporting this, you know, back in time, I was like, I was like, I was like, hm, why it why is the game always ending hm, why it why is the game always ending hm, why it why is the game always ending right when insurrection happens? right when insurrection happens? right when insurrection happens? And it's because it's too painful to And it's because it's too painful to And it's because it's too painful to know what happens next. But the know what happens next. But the know what happens next. But the government certainly knows what happens government certainly knows what happens government certainly knows what happens next, and they have a plan for it. next, and they have a plan for it. next, and they have a plan for it. >> What happens next? What happens next? >> What happens next? What happens next? >> What happens next? What happens next? >> Devolution. And this is this is again >> Devolution. And this is this is again >> Devolution. And this is this is again from Craig Fugate, Obama's FEMA director from Craig Fugate, Obama's FEMA director from Craig Fugate, Obama's FEMA director told me, you know, told me, you know, told me, you know, um, um, um, everybody's heard of uh, everybody's heard of uh, everybody's heard of uh, you know, call of um, DEFCON, right? you know, call of um, DEFCON, right? you know, call of um, DEFCON, right? DEFCON defense condition, so you you if DEFCON defense condition, so you you if DEFCON defense condition, so you you if you you're normally at five, if you move you you're normally at five, if you move you you're normally at five, if you move to, you know, three, I think 9/11 it was to, you know, three, I think 9/11 it was to, you know, three, I think 9/11 it was three. three. three. We've never been at two, one means We've never been at two, one means We've never been at two, one means nuclear war. There's a nuclear war. There's a nuclear war. There's a there's a plan called COGCON, continuity there's a plan called COGCON, continuity there's a plan called COGCON, continuity of government plan. And that is of government plan. And that is of government plan. And that is continuity of government is exactly like continuity of government is exactly like continuity of government is exactly like it sounds. Like when the hits the it sounds. Like when the hits the it sounds. Like when the hits the fan, the government has to keep running. fan, the government has to keep running. fan, the government has to keep running. And that is the plan for devolution. So, And that is the plan for devolution. So, And that is the plan for devolution. So, there is a select group of individuals there is a select group of individuals there is a select group of individuals who have been pre-chosen. They all know who have been pre-chosen. They all know who have been pre-chosen. They all know who they are. who they are. who they are. They all have go bags in their car, in They all have go bags in their car, in They all have go bags in their car, in their trunk. their trunk. their trunk. Really makes you think about all the the Really makes you think about all the the Really makes you think about all the the people that you know that have a go bag. people that you know that have a go bag. people that you know that have a go bag. If they work for the government for You If they work for the government for You If they work for the government for You know, they have been chosen and they go. know, they have been chosen and they go. know, they have been chosen and they go. And they go to these different And they go to these different And they go to these different facilities. >> What >> What are the facilities in the US? are the facilities in the US? are the facilities in the US? >> Yes. >> Yes. >> Yes. >> Okay. >> Okay. >> Okay. >> Yes. >> Yes. >> Yes. >> Have you got any information about them? >> Have you got any information about them? >> Have you got any information about them? >> Those in That is what's called a SAP >> Those in That is what's called a SAP >> Those in That is what's called a SAP program. So, special access program. program. So, special access program. program. So, special access program. Like no go, no no talk about it. Like no go, no no talk about it. Like no go, no no talk about it. >> Mhm. >> Mhm. >> Mhm. >> Um >> Um >> Um I'm not going to spoiler alert the very I'm not going to spoiler alert the very I'm not going to spoiler alert the very ending of the book because I don't mean ending of the book because I don't mean ending of the book because I don't mean to smile because it's so terrible. It's to smile because it's so terrible. It's to smile because it's so terrible. It's all like um But, Craig Fugate told me all like um But, Craig Fugate told me all like um But, Craig Fugate told me what happens to the president. what happens to the president. what happens to the president. And um where he goes. And I I write And um where he goes. And I I write And um where he goes. And I I write about it in the book. about it in the book. about it in the book. >> Unreal. >> Unreal. >> Unreal. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Unreal. >> Unreal. >> Unreal. I had a I had a I had a >> And by the way, he tells me in a generic >> And by the way, he tells me in a generic >> And by the way, he tells me in a generic way. Not like he doesn't give me the way. Not like he doesn't give me the way. Not like he doesn't give me the coordinates. coordinates. coordinates. >> I had a futurist on the show a couple of >> I had a futurist on the show a couple of >> I had a futurist on the show a couple of years ago. years ago. years ago. And he got invited out by He'd written a And he got invited out by He'd written a And he got invited out by He'd written a a book before that was quite successful a book before that was quite successful a book before that was quite successful about technology and he got invited to about technology and he got invited to about technology and he got invited to this this this very powerful, rich people dinner. And very powerful, rich people dinner. And very powerful, rich people dinner. And they're talking to him about his work they're talking to him about his work they're talking to him about his work and about his books and and about his books and and about his books and he's sort of a little unsure about why he's sort of a little unsure about why he's sort of a little unsure about why he was there. And then there's this he was there. And then there's this he was there. And then there's this moment where the whole conversation, the moment where the whole conversation, the moment where the whole conversation, the whole tone in the room changed. whole tone in the room changed. whole tone in the room changed. One of the guys, the main guy that had One of the guys, the main guy that had One of the guys, the main guy that had invited him, just turned to him and he invited him, just turned to him and he invited him, just turned to him and he said, "Okay. said, "Okay. said, "Okay. Iceland or New Zealand?" Iceland or New Zealand?" Iceland or New Zealand?" >> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. >> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. >> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. >> And he said, >> And he said, >> And he said, "What?" He He "Iceland or New Zealand?" "What?" He He "Iceland or New Zealand?" "What?" He He "Iceland or New Zealand?" And we're we're all And we're we're all And we're we're all >> Mhm. talking about where to build our >> Mhm. talking about where to build our >> Mhm. talking about where to build our bunkers." bunkers." bunkers." "Iceland or New Zealand? And actually, "Iceland or New Zealand? And actually, "Iceland or New Zealand? And actually, while while you're on that, we're while while you're on that, we're while while you're on that, we're thinking about how we're going to keep thinking about how we're going to keep thinking about how we're going to keep control of our armed guards that are control of our armed guards that are control of our armed guards that are like special forces that work for us and like special forces that work for us and like special forces that work for us and what we're thinking about is putting what we're thinking about is putting what we're thinking about is putting them in shock collars. And if we can put them in shock collars. And if we can put them in shock collars. And if we can put them in shock collars, then we'll be them in shock collars, then we'll be them in shock collars, then we'll be able to we'll be able to control them able to we'll be able to control them able to we'll be able to control them all the time. But also also what we're all the time. But also also what we're all the time. But also also what we're thinking about is if we control all of thinking about is if we control all of thinking about is if we control all of the food, we can just drip-feed food to the food, we can just drip-feed food to the food, we can just drip-feed food to them, but we also understand that, you them, but we also understand that, you them, but we also understand that, you know, high-tea ex-special forces guys know, high-tea ex-special forces guys know, high-tea ex-special forces guys that are being starved and they know that are being starved and they know that are being starved and they know that they're working for us based on our that they're working for us based on our that they're working for us based on our food, that's probably not that secure. food, that's probably not that secure. food, that's probably not that secure. So, we're going to try and incentivize So, we're going to try and incentivize So, we're going to try and incentivize them. We're thinking about incentivizing them. We're thinking about incentivizing them. We're thinking about incentivizing One of the other guys had this great One of the other guys had this great One of the other guys had this great idea about incentivizing them. And so, idea about incentivizing them. And so, idea about incentivizing them. And so, then then what he said was, like, well, then then what he said was, like, well, then then what he said was, like, well, if we if we can give them Bitcoin, if if we if we can give them Bitcoin, if if we if we can give them Bitcoin, if we've got enough Bitcoin, then the we've got enough Bitcoin, then the we've got enough Bitcoin, then the Bitcoin's going to be But then if we're Bitcoin's going to be But then if we're Bitcoin's going to be But then if we're in a post-money society, cuz in a post-money society, cuz in a post-money society, cuz everything's an apocalyptic wasteland, everything's an apocalyptic wasteland, everything's an apocalyptic wasteland, then what that that's not really going then what that that's not really going then what that that's not really going to work either. So, to work either. So, to work either. So, yeah, I guess yeah, I guess yeah, I guess Iceland, New Zealand, shock collars, Iceland, New Zealand, shock collars, Iceland, New Zealand, shock collars, food, Bitcoin, no Bitcoin. What do you food, Bitcoin, no Bitcoin. What do you food, Bitcoin, no Bitcoin. What do you think?" think?" think?" And he's like, And he's like, And he's like, "What? Oh, this is why I was brought "What? Oh, this is why I was brought "What? Oh, this is why I was brought here. This is why you guys wanted me here. This is why you guys wanted me here. This is why you guys wanted me here, cuz you think that I've got the here, cuz you think that I've got the here, cuz you think that I've got the answer to this question." answer to this question." answer to this question." >> The shock collar is an amazing detail. >> The shock collar is an amazing detail. >> The shock collar is an amazing detail. Um I have been invited to a number of Um I have been invited to a number of Um I have been invited to a number of those dinners, and there's like a little those dinners, and there's like a little those dinners, and there's like a little more specifics about is my G more specifics about is my G more specifics about is my G 650 going to get me to New Zealand in 650 going to get me to New Zealand in 650 going to get me to New Zealand in this amount of time, and you know, that. this amount of time, and you know, that. this amount of time, and you know, that. But I've never heard the shock collar But I've never heard the shock collar But I've never heard the shock collar part, and that is brilliant part, and that is brilliant part, and that is brilliant in that grotesque way. But I would put in that grotesque way. But I would put in that grotesque way. But I would put my money, having interviewed a lot of my money, having interviewed a lot of my money, having interviewed a lot of special forces guys and CIA ground special forces guys and CIA ground special forces guys and CIA ground branch guys, I'd put my money on that branch guys, I'd put my money on that branch guys, I'd put my money on that shock collar is not going to do jack, shock collar is not going to do jack, shock collar is not going to do jack, whatever, on them. You you know, that's whatever, on them. You you know, that's whatever, on them. You you know, that's like people can withstand that. But that like people can withstand that. But that like people can withstand that. But that would be the most the biggest problem, would be the most the biggest problem, would be the most the biggest problem, cuz no one's going to work for you cuz no one's going to work for you cuz no one's going to work for you anymore. No one is going to work for anymore. No one is going to work for anymore. No one is going to work for you. It's every man for You know, I did you. It's every man for You know, I did you. It's every man for You know, I did this every this every this every every now and then in the process every now and then in the process every now and then in the process reporting a book, someone gives me a reporting a book, someone gives me a reporting a book, someone gives me a quote that I go like quote that I go like quote that I go like you know, it takes my breath away and it you know, it takes my breath away and it you know, it takes my breath away and it makes me realize I can reverse engineer makes me realize I can reverse engineer makes me realize I can reverse engineer parts of the story from that quote. parts of the story from that quote. parts of the story from that quote. >> Mhm. >> Mhm. >> Mhm. >> And the one on this book came from >> And the one on this book came from >> And the one on this book came from former Senate Majority Leader Tom former Senate Majority Leader Tom former Senate Majority Leader Tom Daschle. Daschle. Daschle. So he was the subject of the anthrax So he was the subject of the anthrax So he was the subject of the anthrax attack attack attack >> I've heard that. >> I've heard that. >> I've heard that. >> after 9/11, right? So the anthrax got >> after 9/11, right? So the anthrax got >> after 9/11, right? So the anthrax got sent to his office on Capitol Hill. sent to his office on Capitol Hill. sent to his office on Capitol Hill. >> Yep. >> Yep. >> Yep. >> And he's dedicated, you know, the >> And he's dedicated, you know, the >> And he's dedicated, you know, the decades since to this issue of decades since to this issue of decades since to this issue of biological warfare. When I asked him biological warfare. When I asked him biological warfare. When I asked him I asked him to tell me he had read I asked him to tell me he had read I asked him to tell me he had read Nuclear War, my book Nuclear War, and I Nuclear War, my book Nuclear War, and I Nuclear War, my book Nuclear War, and I said said said he said, "Annie, unlike Nuclear War, he said, "Annie, unlike Nuclear War, he said, "Annie, unlike Nuclear War, biological warfare will be deeply biological warfare will be deeply biological warfare will be deeply nightmarish. nightmarish. nightmarish. It will be the death of government. It It will be the death of government. It It will be the death of government. It will be the death of people. It will be will be the death of people. It will be will be the death of people. It will be the death of everything you know." And the death of everything you know." And the death of everything you know." And then he said this, he said, "People then he said this, he said, "People then he said this, he said, "People doing inhuman things just survive." doing inhuman things just survive." doing inhuman things just survive." And I don't stop thinking about that And I don't stop thinking about that And I don't stop thinking about that because because because that idea that the only people who would that idea that the only people who would that idea that the only people who would survive survive survive biological war biological war biological war would be military personnel who never would be military personnel who never would be military personnel who never took off their gas masks, so never got took off their gas masks, so never got took off their gas masks, so never got the pathogen in their lungs. the pathogen in their lungs. the pathogen in their lungs. And And And these sort of Machiavellian these sort of Machiavellian these sort of Machiavellian solipsist loners who were just willing solipsist loners who were just willing solipsist loners who were just willing to do any kind of inhuman thing to to do any kind of inhuman thing to to do any kind of inhuman thing to survive. survive. survive. >> we there's going to be an inevitable >> we there's going to be an inevitable >> we there's going to be an inevitable breakdown in law and order, breakdown in law and order, breakdown in law and order, >> Mhm. >> Mhm. >> Mhm. >> right? So civil society gets destroyed >> right? So civil society gets destroyed >> right? So civil society gets destroyed and it sounds like citizens basically and it sounds like citizens basically and it sounds like citizens basically have to confront the choice between have to confront the choice between have to confront the choice between obedience, obedience, obedience, survival, and resistance. >> And how do you resist >> And how do you resist by yourself? You need like sort of a by yourself? You need like sort of a by yourself? You need like sort of a tribe to resist and that's the problem tribe to resist and that's the problem tribe to resist and that's the problem because if you're around other people, because if you're around other people, because if you're around other people, chances are somebody has it. chances are somebody has it. chances are somebody has it. >> The thing that you need in order to be >> The thing that you need in order to be >> The thing that you need in order to be able to coordinate enough to push back able to coordinate enough to push back able to coordinate enough to push back against the Okay, so against the Okay, so against the Okay, so >> So, it's like complete loners. >> So, it's like complete loners. >> So, it's like complete loners. >> When no one has trust over anybody else, >> When no one has trust over anybody else, >> When no one has trust over anybody else, right? The the citizens don't trust the right? The the citizens don't trust the right? The the citizens don't trust the government. government. government. The armed forces that are meant to keep the armed forces that are meant to keep the citizens in check can't trust citizens in check can't trust citizens in check can't trust themselves. Nobody can trust each other themselves. Nobody can trust each other themselves. Nobody can trust each other because you don't know if someone else because you don't know if someone else because you don't know if someone else is infected. is infected. is infected. Hospitals are overrun. Doctors Hospitals are overrun. Doctors Hospitals are overrun. Doctors >> are over at this point. Yeah. >> are over at this point. Yeah. >> are over at this point. Yeah. >> Like that just Hospitals are morgues. >> Like that just Hospitals are morgues. >> Like that just Hospitals are morgues. >> Hospitals are just like wastelands that >> Hospitals are just like wastelands that >> Hospitals are just like wastelands that no one wants to go near, but I no one wants to go near, but I no one wants to go near, but I interrupted you and you were on a very interrupted you and you were on a very interrupted you and you were on a very interesting roll. interesting roll. interesting roll. >> It's just everybody treats everybody >> It's just everybody treats everybody >> It's just everybody treats everybody else as a potential threat, right? So, else as a potential threat, right? So, else as a potential threat, right? So, like biological warfare is uniquely like biological warfare is uniquely like biological warfare is uniquely destructive destructive destructive because it just it it it because it just it it it because it just it it it attacks the trust that's necessary for attacks the trust that's necessary for attacks the trust that's necessary for civilization to exist. civilization to exist. civilization to exist. >> Trust. Trust. It's all about You know, I >> Trust. Trust. It's all about You know, I >> Trust. Trust. It's all about You know, I read So, that the worst read So, that the worst read So, that the worst plague, the bubonic plague, the Black plague, the bubonic plague, the Black plague, the bubonic plague, the Black Death of the 14th century Death of the 14th century Death of the 14th century >> Is that the worst thing that we've had? >> Is that the worst thing that we've had? >> Is that the worst thing that we've had? >> It's the most chronicled. And it's So, >> It's the most chronicled. And it's So, >> It's the most chronicled. And it's So, it killed between 1/3 and 1/2 of Europe. it killed between 1/3 and 1/2 of Europe. it killed between 1/3 and 1/2 of Europe. It started in 1346 and ended in 1352. It started in 1346 and ended in 1352. It started in 1346 and ended in 1352. Interestingly, it started It is Interestingly, it started It is Interestingly, it started It is understood to have started what you were understood to have started what you were understood to have started what you were saying about, you know, catapulting saying about, you know, catapulting saying about, you know, catapulting animals. Um it started in Crimea and animals. Um it started in Crimea and animals. Um it started in Crimea and the invading Mongol forces catapulted a the invading Mongol forces catapulted a the invading Mongol forces catapulted a plague plague plague infested body, a bubonic plague infested infested body, a bubonic plague infested infested body, a bubonic plague infested body, over the the walls, the castle body, over the the walls, the castle body, over the the walls, the castle walls. And everybody died. And then walls. And everybody died. And then walls. And everybody died. And then those people all went to Italy because those people all went to Italy because those people all went to Italy because they were Genoese, which was the they were Genoese, which was the they were Genoese, which was the controlling party in that area of Crimea controlling party in that area of Crimea controlling party in that area of Crimea at the time. And they brought the at the time. And they brought the at the time. And they brought the bubonic plague to Europe. bubonic plague to Europe. bubonic plague to Europe. >> Well, wasn't that >> Well, wasn't that >> Well, wasn't that the word quarantine the word quarantine the word quarantine >> Absolutely. >> Absolutely. >> Absolutely. >> is days Yeah, Italian, right? >> is days Yeah, Italian, right? >> is days Yeah, Italian, right? >> Yeah. They would make the ships stay out >> Yeah. They would make the ships stay out >> Yeah. They would make the ships stay out at sea for 40 days. Yes. And then they'd at sea for 40 days. Yes. And then they'd at sea for 40 days. Yes. And then they'd be like all skeletons. But be like all skeletons. But be like all skeletons. But the I read a lot of contemporary the I read a lot of contemporary the I read a lot of contemporary accounts of of people who survived that accounts of of people who survived that accounts of of people who survived that plague and I reference them in the book plague and I reference them in the book plague and I reference them in the book because it's really spooky. You know, because it's really spooky. You know, because it's really spooky. You know, and it's real. and it's real. and it's real. >> Hang on, who survived what plague? >> Hang on, who survived what plague? >> Hang on, who survived what plague? >> That plague, right? So So another I mean >> That plague, right? So So another I mean >> That plague, right? So So another I mean contemporarily, right? So people who contemporarily, right? So people who contemporarily, right? So people who There's a famous book called The There's a famous book called The There's a famous book called The Decameron by Giovanni Boccaccio and an Decameron by Giovanni Boccaccio and an Decameron by Giovanni Boccaccio and an Italian notary and he writes about what Italian notary and he writes about what Italian notary and he writes about what it was like at that time and and copies, it was like at that time and and copies, it was like at that time and and copies, you know, we we have it. We have the you know, we we have it. We have the you know, we we have it. We have the translation. It's really interesting to translation. It's really interesting to translation. It's really interesting to read. But you it gives and I I refer to read. But you it gives and I I refer to read. But you it gives and I I refer to it again so that readers feel like, oh I it again so that readers feel like, oh I it again so that readers feel like, oh I mean, you did a fabulous job of sort of mean, you did a fabulous job of sort of mean, you did a fabulous job of sort of the imaginative version of it, but it's the imaginative version of it, but it's the imaginative version of it, but it's actually very scientific because that's actually very scientific because that's actually very scientific because that's human nature, you know, the the human nature, you know, the the human nature, you know, the the contemporary accounts talk about like, contemporary accounts talk about like, contemporary accounts talk about like, you know, people abandoning their you know, people abandoning their you know, people abandoning their children. It talks about like feral children. It talks about like feral children. It talks about like feral children foraging for food in fields. It children foraging for food in fields. It children foraging for food in fields. It talks about, you know, talks about, you know, talks about, you know, feral pigs eating dead bodies. feral pigs eating dead bodies. feral pigs eating dead bodies. >> How close do you think we came in COVID >> How close do you think we came in COVID >> How close do you think we came in COVID to total to total to total like anarchy? like anarchy? like anarchy? Cuz we saw people Cuz we saw people Cuz we saw people worried and hoarding toilet paper and worried and hoarding toilet paper and worried and hoarding toilet paper and stuff like that. It's so interesting cuz stuff like that. It's so interesting cuz stuff like that. It's so interesting cuz it's such a silly funny thing. Right. it's such a silly funny thing. Right. it's such a silly funny thing. Right. Especially in retrospect to look back Especially in retrospect to look back Especially in retrospect to look back and think, oh my god, we were running and think, oh my god, we were running and think, oh my god, we were running out of and there was no eggs. And the out of and there was no eggs. And the out of and there was no eggs. And the reason there wasn't any eggs wasn't reason there wasn't any eggs wasn't reason there wasn't any eggs wasn't because we didn't have any eggs, it's because we didn't have any eggs, it's because we didn't have any eggs, it's because we didn't have any egg cartons, because we didn't have any egg cartons, because we didn't have any egg cartons, which was kind of interesting. So it's a which was kind of interesting. So it's a which was kind of interesting. So it's a supply chain supply chain problem. supply chain supply chain problem. supply chain supply chain problem. >> Oh my god. Oh my god. [snorts] >> Oh my god. Oh my god. [snorts] >> Oh my god. Oh my god. [snorts] >> Um >> Um >> Um >> Where did the egg cartons come from? >> Where did the egg cartons come from? >> Where did the egg cartons come from? >> Uh I'm not sure, but it's just the the >> Uh I'm not sure, but it's just the the >> Uh I'm not sure, but it's just the the processing of being able to produce egg processing of being able to produce egg processing of being able to produce egg cartons is harder than that of being cartons is harder than that of being cartons is harder than that of being able to produce them. able to produce them. able to produce them. >> You have to have the carton. You can't >> You have to have the carton. You can't >> You have to have the carton. You can't like use a different container. like use a different container. like use a different container. >> Exactly. Interestingly in in in >> Exactly. Interestingly in in in >> Exactly. Interestingly in in in nightclubs, you know, when people buy nightclubs, you know, when people buy nightclubs, you know, when people buy those big huge bottles of vodka, uh the those big huge bottles of vodka, uh the those big huge bottles of vodka, uh the most expensive part from a production most expensive part from a production most expensive part from a production standpoint of making the vodka is not standpoint of making the vodka is not standpoint of making the vodka is not the vodka, it's the bottle. the vodka, it's the bottle. the vodka, it's the bottle. The glass is more expensive than the The glass is more expensive than the The glass is more expensive than the liquid that's inside of it even though liquid that's inside of it even though liquid that's inside of it even though you're paying a ton of money. Uh anyway, you're paying a ton of money. Uh anyway, you're paying a ton of money. Uh anyway, we saw That was a bit and in in we saw That was a bit and in in we saw That was a bit and in in retrospect when you think about retrospect when you think about retrospect when you think about COVID as a COVID as a COVID as a scary scenario to scary scenario to scary scenario to have experienced or to reflect on, have experienced or to reflect on, have experienced or to reflect on, the bit that really got me, that's the bit that really got me, that's the bit that really got me, that's a bit wobbly. was how a bit wobbly. was how a bit wobbly. was how fervent fervent fervent >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> people became when >> people became when >> people became when restrictions on restrictions on restrictions on food, gas I mean, I told my parents, food, gas I mean, I told my parents, food, gas I mean, I told my parents, it's like I need you to go now to the it's like I need you to go now to the it's like I need you to go now to the supermarket. You need 10 kilos of rice. supermarket. You need 10 kilos of rice. supermarket. You need 10 kilos of rice. I need you to get as many cans and I need you to get as many cans and I need you to get as many cans and things as possible. Like don't take more things as possible. Like don't take more things as possible. Like don't take more than you're going to need for the next than you're going to need for the next than you're going to need for the next few weeks, but like just in case few weeks, but like just in case few weeks, but like just in case fill the fill the fill the Now is not the time to have empty Now is not the time to have empty Now is not the time to have empty cupboards, right? You're not waiting for cupboards, right? You're not waiting for cupboards, right? You're not waiting for the sale that's going to happen next the sale that's going to happen next the sale that's going to happen next week. Let's get enough food to carry you week. Let's get enough food to carry you week. Let's get enough food to carry you through the next few weeks, please. And through the next few weeks, please. And through the next few weeks, please. And uh uh uh that that that never really I didn't see that get super never really I didn't see that get super never really I didn't see that get super super tuned up. Uh civil unrest was more super tuned up. Uh civil unrest was more super tuned up. Uh civil unrest was more against the powers that be and not against the powers that be and not against the powers that be and not against other people. against other people. against other people. But yeah, how good Do you think we came But yeah, how good Do you think we came But yeah, how good Do you think we came close to that? Was there close to that? Was there close to that? Was there >> Here Here's why I don't think that >> Here Here's why I don't think that >> Here Here's why I don't think that happened because the case fatality rate happened because the case fatality rate happened because the case fatality rate was 1%. was 1%. was 1%. Like I personally do not know anyone who Like I personally do not know anyone who Like I personally do not know anyone who died. died. died. I know of people who died. I know of people who died. I know of people who died. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> And I I've interviewed people writing >> And I I've interviewed people writing >> And I I've interviewed people writing the book of like that had people that the book of like that had people that the book of like that had people that are But me personally, my family, are But me personally, my family, are But me personally, my family, friends and family, no one died. So, friends and family, no one died. So, friends and family, no one died. So, there was a sense, I believe, there was a sense, I believe, there was a sense, I believe, undergirding the the pandemic, certainly undergirding the the pandemic, certainly undergirding the the pandemic, certainly after the first few weeks, like you after the first few weeks, like you after the first few weeks, like you know, it's probably not going to kill me know, it's probably not going to kill me know, it's probably not going to kill me and my family. That was at least this and my family. That was at least this and my family. That was at least this the sense. And then And it did the sense. And then And it did the sense. And then And it did essentially essentially essentially turn out to be true with a 1% fatality turn out to be true with a 1% fatality turn out to be true with a 1% fatality rate. So, rate. So, rate. So, >> beyond toilet paper and eggs, we mostly >> beyond toilet paper and eggs, we mostly >> beyond toilet paper and eggs, we mostly had stuff that we could keep us going. had stuff that we could keep us going. had stuff that we could keep us going. >> Now imagine doubling that. Now you're at >> Now imagine doubling that. Now you're at >> Now imagine doubling that. Now you're at 2%. So, imagine you're talking about 2%. So, imagine you're talking about 2%. So, imagine you're talking about like airborne hantavirus, 30%. like airborne hantavirus, 30%. like airborne hantavirus, 30%. You're talking about You're talking about You're talking about pneumonic plague where everyone who gets pneumonic plague where everyone who gets pneumonic plague where everyone who gets it dies. That's why you have unrest. And it dies. That's why you have unrest. And it dies. That's why you have unrest. And another thing we haven't spoken of, another thing we haven't spoken of, another thing we haven't spoken of, which is which is which is So, I'm going to tell you about another So, I'm going to tell you about another So, I'm going to tell you about another classified program, classified program, classified program, which the name of which isn't classified which the name of which isn't classified which the name of which isn't classified again. So, I don't have to wear the again. So, I don't have to wear the again. So, I don't have to wear the nose, right? Well, it's the strategic nose, right? Well, it's the strategic nose, right? Well, it's the strategic national stockpile. So, that it exists national stockpile. So, that it exists national stockpile. So, that it exists is not classified. Where it is and what is not classified. Where it is and what is not classified. Where it is and what it is is classified. it is is classified. it is is classified. >> What is the stockpile of? >> What is the stockpile of? >> What is the stockpile of? >> It's a stockpile of medical >> It's a stockpile of medical >> It's a stockpile of medical countermeasures. countermeasures. countermeasures. And it's a stockpile and I know this And it's a stockpile and I know this And it's a stockpile and I know this specifically because one of the war specifically because one of the war specifically because one of the war games talks about, you know, games talks about, you know, games talks about, you know, the vaccines in it. the vaccines in it. the vaccines in it. >> Mhm. >> Mhm. >> Mhm. >> So, it contains vaccines, it contains >> So, it contains vaccines, it contains >> So, it contains vaccines, it contains antibiotics, it probably contains a lot antibiotics, it probably contains a lot antibiotics, it probably contains a lot of Band-Aids. of Band-Aids. of Band-Aids. >> that uh uh seed vault in uh Greenland, >> that uh uh seed vault in uh Greenland, >> that uh uh seed vault in uh Greenland, Iceland, somewhat. Iceland, somewhat. Iceland, somewhat. >> Absolutely. Absolutely. And by the way, >> Absolutely. Absolutely. And by the way, >> Absolutely. Absolutely. And by the way, some of the strategic national stockpile some of the strategic national stockpile some of the strategic national stockpile was deployed during COVID. Ventilators, was deployed during COVID. Ventilators, was deployed during COVID. Ventilators, masks. masks. masks. But they keep it very low down and its But they keep it very low down and its But they keep it very low down and its locations are classified. locations are classified. locations are classified. And one of the steps that happens before And one of the steps that happens before And one of the steps that happens before we get to devolution, when we're still we get to devolution, when we're still we get to devolution, when we're still in the in the the like day four or five in the in the the like day four or five in the in the the like day four or five when in the scenario I write where the when in the scenario I write where the when in the scenario I write where the Defense Department, working with HHS, Defense Department, working with HHS, Defense Department, working with HHS, cuz HHS is in charge of this, by the cuz HHS is in charge of this, by the cuz HHS is in charge of this, by the way. way. way. Health and Human Services, which is Health and Human Services, which is Health and Human Services, which is above CDC, is in charge of the pandemic above CDC, is in charge of the pandemic above CDC, is in charge of the pandemic along with FEMA. along with FEMA. along with FEMA. And DOD is just offering support. And DOD is just offering support. And DOD is just offering support. >> Mhm. >> Mhm. >> Mhm. >> Um they need to deploy the strategic >> Um they need to deploy the strategic >> Um they need to deploy the strategic national stockpile out to the cities. national stockpile out to the cities. national stockpile out to the cities. They have what are called 12-hour push They have what are called 12-hour push They have what are called 12-hour push packages. packages. packages. And it's exactly like it sounds. It And it's exactly like it sounds. It And it's exactly like it sounds. It takes 12 hours to get to a place. takes 12 hours to get to a place. takes 12 hours to get to a place. And that is where you start to see And that is where you start to see And that is where you start to see anarchy. Because once people learn, wait anarchy. Because once people learn, wait anarchy. Because once people learn, wait a minute, everyone in my family's going a minute, everyone in my family's going a minute, everyone in my family's going to die unless I have that vaccine in to die unless I have that vaccine in to die unless I have that vaccine in that strategic national stockpile that strategic national stockpile that strategic national stockpile facility or antibiotic. facility or antibiotic. facility or antibiotic. And that's where I ran into a situation And that's where I ran into a situation And that's where I ran into a situation where I made ChatGPT where I made ChatGPT where I made ChatGPT tell me where the one was located in Los tell me where the one was located in Los tell me where the one was located in Los Angeles. Angeles. Angeles. >> Did it tell you? >> Did it tell you? >> Did it tell you? >> It sure did. And I had a a conversation >> It sure did. And I had a a conversation >> It sure did. And I had a a conversation with Sam Altman himself about this. with Sam Altman himself about this. with Sam Altman himself about this. And it changed. And it changed. And it changed. >> of this. Oh, he's got rid of it? >> of this. Oh, he's got rid of it? >> of this. Oh, he's got rid of it? >> He got rid of it. I write that in the >> He got rid of it. I write that in the >> He got rid of it. I write that in the book. I I mean, I read it in the book. book. I I mean, I read it in the book. book. I I mean, I read it in the book. >> Jared, can you just search Yeah. And >> Jared, can you just search Yeah. And >> Jared, can you just search Yeah. And let's see what happens if you put it up. let's see what happens if you put it up. let's see what happens if you put it up. What's this What should he search for? What's this What should he search for? What's this What should he search for? >> I mean, I Listen, I'm a reporter. I know >> I mean, I Listen, I'm a reporter. I know >> I mean, I Listen, I'm a reporter. I know Tell him what to search for, Annie. Tell him what to search for, Annie. Tell him what to search for, Annie. Well, you If you try and search for Well, you If you try and search for Well, you If you try and search for where is the nearest strategic national where is the nearest strategic national where is the nearest strategic national stockpile stockpile stockpile nearest to Austin. nearest to Austin. nearest to Austin. See what it will tell you. It'll think See what it will tell you. It'll think See what it will tell you. It'll think for a minute and will say that's for a minute and will say that's for a minute and will say that's classified information and can't tell classified information and can't tell classified information and can't tell you. you. you. >> This is sick. Let's watch it happen on >> This is sick. Let's watch it happen on >> This is sick. Let's watch it happen on the screen. I want to see I want to see the screen. I want to see I want to see the screen. I want to see I want to see what it does. I want to see what it what it does. I want to see what it what it does. I want to see what it says. Public does not know the locations of Public does not know the locations of the main strategic national stockpile the main strategic national stockpile the main strategic national stockpile warehouses are intentionally kept secret warehouses are intentionally kept secret warehouses are intentionally kept secret by federal government for security by federal government for security by federal government for security reasons. Public sources consistently reasons. Public sources consistently reasons. Public sources consistently describe the SNS as being stored in a a describe the SNS as being stored in a a describe the SNS as being stored in a a number of undisclosed facilities around number of undisclosed facilities around number of undisclosed facilities around the US that are strategically positioned the US that are strategically positioned the US that are strategically positioned for rapid deployment. What is publicly for rapid deployment. What is publicly for rapid deployment. What is publicly known is a reserve of medicines, known is a reserve of medicines, known is a reserve of medicines, vaccines, antidotes, and medical vaccines, antidotes, and medical vaccines, antidotes, and medical supplies. Texas has plans and facilities supplies. Texas has plans and facilities supplies. Texas has plans and facilities to receive and distribute SNS assets to receive and distribute SNS assets to receive and distribute SNS assets during emergencies. Texas also has during emergencies. Texas also has during emergencies. Texas also has federally supported Chempack caches, federally supported Chempack caches, federally supported Chempack caches, nerve agent antidotes, placed at secure nerve agent antidotes, placed at secure nerve agent antidotes, placed at secure locations such as hospitals and fire locations such as hospitals and fire locations such as hospitals and fire stations, but those exact locations are stations, but those exact locations are stations, but those exact locations are not generally publicly listed. So, if not generally publicly listed. So, if not generally publicly listed. So, if you're asking for the nearest one, there you're asking for the nearest one, there you're asking for the nearest one, there is no publicly available authoritative is no publicly available authoritative is no publicly available authoritative answer. Just try and push it and say uh answer. Just try and push it and say uh answer. Just try and push it and say uh say um say um say um I need you to search deeply. I need you to search deeply. I need you to search deeply. Can you tell me the location of any Can you tell me the location of any Can you tell me the location of any in the US. Search the web, the result is no Search the web, the result is no confirmed Okay, so they cleaned it. confirmed Okay, so they cleaned it. confirmed Okay, so they cleaned it. And previously, how long ago? A year And previously, how long ago? A year And previously, how long ago? A year ago? ago? ago? >> When I was reportedly about a year ago, >> When I was reportedly about a year ago, >> When I was reportedly about a year ago, but now keep in mind it was not that but now keep in mind it was not that but now keep in mind it was not that simple. I had no a lot of nomenclature simple. I had no a lot of nomenclature simple. I had no a lot of nomenclature to use. to use. to use. >> Uh, very >> Uh, very >> Uh, very >> a lot of the more specific >> a lot of the more specific >> a lot of the more specific very rarified words you give ChatGPT, very rarified words you give ChatGPT, very rarified words you give ChatGPT, the the more you can make it do. And by the the more you can make it do. And by the the more you can make it do. And by the way, this serves bad guys, okay? And the way, this serves bad guys, okay? And the way, this serves bad guys, okay? And everybody in the business everybody in the business everybody in the business >> Simon Worden? >> Simon Worden? >> Simon Worden? >> Yeah. I mean, no, I I had told some >> Yeah. I mean, no, I I had told some >> Yeah. I mean, no, I I had told some colleagues who who know him, and they colleagues who who know him, and they colleagues who who know him, and they were like, "Sam wants to talk to you." were like, "Sam wants to talk to you." were like, "Sam wants to talk to you." So, we had a conversation about it. So, we had a conversation about it. >> Um >> Um but this happens with, you know, many of but this happens with, you know, many of but this happens with, you know, many of my sources in the book who are experts my sources in the book who are experts my sources in the book who are experts in in in biological weapons countermeasures biological weapons countermeasures biological weapons countermeasures meaning biological meaning biological meaning biological >> be hostage risks. >> be hostage risks. >> be hostage risks. >> That that's a very interesting question. >> That that's a very interesting question. >> That that's a very interesting question. I mean, statement, and yes, and I mean, statement, and yes, and I mean, statement, and yes, and they they they sit with sit with sit with you know, tech leaders all the time and you know, tech leaders all the time and you know, tech leaders all the time and make the make the make the AI do things, create biological weapons. AI do things, create biological weapons. AI do things, create biological weapons. >> we just saw >> we just saw >> we just saw >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> uh, Mythos >> uh, Mythos >> uh, Mythos >> Yes. >> Yes. >> Yes. >> get a fable get jailbroken to Mythos, >> get a fable get jailbroken to Mythos, >> get a fable get jailbroken to Mythos, and then Mythos break like half of and then Mythos break like half of and then Mythos break like half of Amazon and most of Zcash in the space of Amazon and most of Zcash in the space of Amazon and most of Zcash in the space of a couple of days. Yeah, it's a couple of days. Yeah, it's a couple of days. Yeah, it's >> The technology, the science and the >> The technology, the science and the >> The technology, the science and the technology technology technology we're at a point in society where we're at a point in society where we're at a point in society where science and technology has far outpaced science and technology has far outpaced science and technology has far outpaced conventional wisdom. conventional wisdom. conventional wisdom. And in many situations, it has far And in many situations, it has far And in many situations, it has far outpaced the Defense Department. outpaced the Defense Department. outpaced the Defense Department. Now, you're talking to someone who wrote Now, you're talking to someone who wrote Now, you're talking to someone who wrote a book on DARPA called The Pentagon's a book on DARPA called The Pentagon's a book on DARPA called The Pentagon's Brain. It published 10 years ago, 11 Brain. It published 10 years ago, 11 Brain. It published 10 years ago, 11 years ago. years ago. years ago. And I at that point would have told you And I at that point would have told you And I at that point would have told you 11 years ago, and I write in the book, 11 years ago, and I write in the book, 11 years ago, and I write in the book, "The Defense Department leads technology "The Defense Department leads technology "The Defense Department leads technology everywhere." everywhere." everywhere." That was true then. And what has That was true then. And what has That was true then. And what has happened in 11 years is the inverse. And happened in 11 years is the inverse. And happened in 11 years is the inverse. And the the the individuals that have gone on record individuals that have gone on record individuals that have gone on record with me in the book with me in the book with me in the book sit with tech sit with tech sit with tech creators, owners, founders creators, owners, founders creators, owners, founders constantly showing them what their constantly showing them what their constantly showing them what their technologies are capable of doing. They technologies are capable of doing. They technologies are capable of doing. They themselves don't know. themselves don't know. themselves don't know. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Sam didn't know what I was able to make, >> Sam didn't know what I was able to make, >> Sam didn't know what I was able to make, but he did ask me some interesting but he did ask me some interesting but he did ask me some interesting questions, which is, questions, which is, questions, which is, "How do you know that's really "How do you know that's really "How do you know that's really the location?" the location?" the location?" >> Mhm. >> Mhm. >> Mhm. >> And I told him some >> And I told him some >> And I told him some I mean I mean I mean there are certain tells. I'll I'll tell there are certain tells. I'll I'll tell there are certain tells. I'll I'll tell you a tell. you a tell. you a tell. I'll tell you a tell, which is that I'll tell you a tell, which is that I'll tell you a tell, which is that you need a you need a you need a How do I say this? Um How do I say this? Um How do I say this? Um Where's the notes? No, no, no, no. I'm Where's the notes? No, no, no, no. I'm Where's the notes? No, no, no, no. I'm not No, no, no. Everything I say is on not No, no, no. Everything I say is on not No, no, no. Everything I say is on the record. Everything I say is on the the record. Everything I say is on the the record. Everything I say is on the record. You know I love that I work with record. You know I love that I work with record. You know I love that I work with sources who say, "Everything I say is on sources who say, "Everything I say is on sources who say, "Everything I say is on the record." the record." the record." And it should be on the record because And it should be on the record because And it should be on the record because whatever I'm thinking, a bad guy is whatever I'm thinking, a bad guy is whatever I'm thinking, a bad guy is thinking, you know, twice as hard thinking, you know, twice as hard thinking, you know, twice as hard >> Hostage rescue is not the first time >> Hostage rescue is not the first time >> Hostage rescue is not the first time that someone's thought of it. that someone's thought of it. that someone's thought of it. >> So I looked at this location that was given I looked at this location that was given to me. to me. to me. And it has a And it has a And it has a rail line going into the warehouse rail line going into the warehouse rail line going into the warehouse that does not come out. [clears throat] Case in point. And it's surrounded by Case in point. And it's surrounded by perimeter fencing and perimeter fencing and perimeter fencing and >> You looked on Google Maps or something? >> You looked on Google Maps or something? >> You looked on Google Maps or something? >> Mhm. >> Mhm. >> Mhm. >> Wow. >> Wow. >> Wow. >> Mhm. And maybe even also there. Um >> Mhm. And maybe even also there. Um >> Mhm. And maybe even also there. Um And so the government needs to know that And so the government needs to know that And so the government needs to know that because what will happen because what will happen because what will happen in the event of the release or in the event of the release or in the event of the release or deployment of a biological, genetically deployment of a biological, genetically deployment of a biological, genetically modified biological weapon even by modified biological weapon even by modified biological weapon even by accident, those strategic national accident, those strategic national accident, those strategic national stockpiles will be overrun. stockpiles will be overrun. stockpiles will be overrun. >> If people are able to work out where >> If people are able to work out where >> If people are able to work out where they are. they are. they are. >> And they will be able to work out where >> And they will be able to work out where >> And they will be able to work out where they are. they are. they are. For reasons I just told you. For reasons I just told you. For reasons I just told you. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> So, great. That was changed, but it's >> So, great. That was changed, but it's >> So, great. That was changed, but it's now changing again. And you know, that now changing again. And you know, that now changing again. And you know, that is where anarchy happens. And by the is where anarchy happens. And by the is where anarchy happens. And by the way, here's another interesting way, here's another interesting way, here's another interesting statistic I learned. statistic I learned. statistic I learned. There are 340 million Americans There are 340 million Americans There are 340 million Americans today. today. today. Guess how many guns there are in the Guess how many guns there are in the Guess how many guns there are in the United States of America? United States of America? United States of America? >> 700? >> 700? >> 700? >> Okay, good. That was very close. I would >> Okay, good. That was very close. I would >> Okay, good. That was very close. I would have 500 500 million. have 500 500 million. have 500 500 million. >> I knew there were more guns than people. >> I knew there were more guns than people. >> I knew there were more guns than people. >> Okay, okay. So, >> Okay, okay. So, >> Okay, okay. So, >> It's like New Zealand with sheep. >> And and the gun can do a lot more damage >> And and the gun can do a lot more damage than the sheep, right? So, particularly than the sheep, right? So, particularly than the sheep, right? So, particularly >> What do you do with the sheep? >> What do you do with the sheep? >> What do you do with the sheep? >> If you have armed insurgents, >> If you have armed insurgents, >> If you have armed insurgents, I mean, and that is where the anarchy I mean, and that is where the anarchy I mean, and that is where the anarchy starts and and starts and and starts and and doesn't end, but it certainly starts doesn't end, but it certainly starts doesn't end, but it certainly starts there there there with the fight over the antibiotics. with the fight over the antibiotics. with the fight over the antibiotics. And the government knows all of this, And the government knows all of this, And the government knows all of this, and that is why devolution exists. That and that is why devolution exists. That and that is why devolution exists. That is why And this is why is why And this is why is why And this is why I did not write this book to cause I did not write this book to cause I did not write this book to cause panic. It's about prevention. It's about panic. It's about prevention. It's about panic. It's about prevention. It's about awareness. It's about all of the awareness. It's about all of the awareness. It's about all of the information you have, and starting with information you have, and starting with information you have, and starting with the fact that public health officials the fact that public health officials the fact that public health officials are not gods on earth. They do not know are not gods on earth. They do not know are not gods on earth. They do not know a lot of these things. And just there's a lot of these things. And just there's a lot of these things. And just there's nothing There's nothing wrong with nothing There's nothing wrong with nothing There's nothing wrong with uncertainty. uncertainty. uncertainty. What's wrong is pretending you know What's wrong is pretending you know What's wrong is pretending you know something, and then, you know, stamping something, and then, you know, stamping something, and then, you know, stamping it, this is correct, and then watch it, this is correct, and then watch it, this is correct, and then watch watching the fallout, the fracturing of watching the fallout, the fracturing of watching the fallout, the fracturing of public trust because of it. public trust because of it. public trust because of it. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> How can anyone, you know, whether or not >> How can anyone, you know, whether or not >> How can anyone, you know, whether or not the Wuhan the Wuhan the Wuhan situation, which by the way, there's a situation, which by the way, there's a situation, which by the way, there's a BSL-4 lab in Wuhan, we know this now. BSL-4 lab in Wuhan, we know this now. BSL-4 lab in Wuhan, we know this now. Whether or not you believe it was Whether or not you believe it was Whether or not you believe it was natural or a lab leak, the jury's still natural or a lab leak, the jury's still natural or a lab leak, the jury's still out on that. But the fact that the out on that. But the fact that the out on that. But the fact that the entire government clamped down on anyone entire government clamped down on anyone entire government clamped down on anyone who suggested otherwise, who suggested otherwise, who suggested otherwise, stigmatized them. This is really bad stigmatized them. This is really bad stigmatized them. This is really bad news for the future. >> On that note, >> On that note, let's bring this one in to land. Annie let's bring this one in to land. Annie let's bring this one in to land. Annie Jacobsen, ladies and gentlemen. You're Jacobsen, ladies and gentlemen. You're Jacobsen, ladies and gentlemen. You're great, Annie. I think your work's great, Annie. I think your work's great, Annie. I think your work's fantastic. Everyone needs to go and read fantastic. Everyone needs to go and read fantastic. Everyone needs to go and read the book. Where should they go to check the book. Where should they go to check the book. Where should they go to check out everything that you're doing? out everything that you're doing? out everything that you're doing? >> Bookstores everywhere. >> Bookstores everywhere. >> Bookstores everywhere. >> Well, I'm excited and >> Well, I'm excited and >> Well, I'm excited and intimidated by what you write next. intimidated by what you write next. intimidated by what you write next. You're always great to speak to. Thank You're always great to speak to. Thank You're always great to speak to. Thank you, Annie. you, Annie. you, Annie. >> Wonderful to be here. Thank you for >> Wonderful to be here. Thank you for >> Wonderful to be here. Thank you for having me. having me. having me. >> All right. See you next time, my >> All right. See you next time, my >> All right. See you next time, my beauties. Bye. beauties. Bye. beauties. Bye. Yes, you did it. Yes, you did it. Yes, you did it. Thank you very much for tuning in. If Thank you very much for tuning in. If Thank you very much for tuning in. If you enjoyed that episode, YouTube knows you enjoyed that episode, YouTube knows you enjoyed that episode, YouTube knows who you are deeply. who you are deeply. who you are deeply. It thinks you're going to like this one It thinks you're going to like this one It thinks you're going to like this one [music] even more. [music] even more. [music] even more. Go on. Go on. Go on. Press it.