The Science of Talking | Maryellen MacDonald

Mary Ellen McDonald, welcome to the Mary Ellen McDonald, welcome to the show. show. show. >> Thanks. It's great to be here. >> Thanks. It's great to be here. >> Thanks. It's great to be here. >> It's great to have you here. So, let me >> It's great to have you here. So, let me >> It's great to have you here. So, let me ask you just to start here to describe ask you just to start here to describe ask you just to start here to describe your basic thesis. your basic thesis. your basic thesis. >> Sure. >> Sure. >> Sure. So, in my book, I talk about the hidden So, in my book, I talk about the hidden So, in my book, I talk about the hidden side of talking. So for talking I'm side of talking. So for talking I'm side of talking. So for talking I'm referring to speaking what we're doing referring to speaking what we're doing referring to speaking what we're doing now writing which is also a form of now writing which is also a form of now writing which is also a form of talking uh signing in a sign language talking uh signing in a sign language talking uh signing in a sign language and even talking to ourselves in our and even talking to ourselves in our and even talking to ourselves in our head and we think about talking as being head and we think about talking as being head and we think about talking as being of course for communication and that's of course for communication and that's of course for communication and that's not wrong but unbeknownst to lots of not wrong but unbeknownst to lots of not wrong but unbeknownst to lots of people there are these hidden sides of people there are these hidden sides of people there are these hidden sides of talking that are extremely beneficial. talking that are extremely beneficial. talking that are extremely beneficial. for us, for the talker, who's ever doing for us, for the talker, who's ever doing for us, for the talker, who's ever doing the talker talking. Talking focuses our the talker talking. Talking focuses our the talker talking. Talking focuses our attention. It helps us learn better. It attention. It helps us learn better. It attention. It helps us learn better. It helps regulate our emotions. It helps helps regulate our emotions. It helps helps regulate our emotions. It helps bring clarity to our thoughts, bring clarity to our thoughts, bring clarity to our thoughts, especially in times of emotional especially in times of emotional especially in times of emotional turmoil. It helps kids get ready for turmoil. It helps kids get ready for turmoil. It helps kids get ready for school and thinking and being alert and school and thinking and being alert and school and thinking and being alert and ready to plan and and all of that and it ready to plan and and all of that and it ready to plan and and all of that and it protects us from dementia. protects us from dementia. protects us from dementia. So So So all of those things are kind of separate all of those things are kind of separate all of those things are kind of separate from us talking to each other and from us talking to each other and from us talking to each other and sharing information and I wanted to sharing information and I wanted to sharing information and I wanted to convey that in my book. So there's this convey that in my book. So there's this convey that in my book. So there's this thing that all of us are doing every day thing that all of us are doing every day thing that all of us are doing every day talking whether it's self-t talk to talking whether it's self-t talk to talking whether it's self-t talk to other people writing signing we're all other people writing signing we're all other people writing signing we're all doing this thing that doing this thing that doing this thing that has hidden benefits has hidden benefits has hidden benefits uh if used in a more deliberate and uh if used in a more deliberate and uh if used in a more deliberate and thoughtful way thoughtful way thoughtful way >> right especially if used in a more >> right especially if used in a more >> right especially if used in a more deliberate and thoughtful way. But those deliberate and thoughtful way. But those deliberate and thoughtful way. But those benefits can come from just everyday benefits can come from just everyday benefits can come from just everyday talking as well. talking as well. talking as well. >> So we're getting the benefits anyway, >> So we're getting the benefits anyway, >> So we're getting the benefits anyway, but we can maximize them by taking a few but we can maximize them by taking a few but we can maximize them by taking a few strategic steps. strategic steps. strategic steps. >> That's right. >> That's right. >> That's right. >> Why is talking harder than listening or >> Why is talking harder than listening or >> Why is talking harder than listening or understanding? understanding? understanding? >> Talking is harder than listening because >> Talking is harder than listening because >> Talking is harder than listening because it's a kind of action. So here's an it's a kind of action. So here's an it's a kind of action. So here's an extreme example. It's much easier to extreme example. It's much easier to extreme example. It's much easier to watch somebody run a marathon than watch somebody run a marathon than watch somebody run a marathon than actually run a marathon. actually run a marathon. actually run a marathon. >> Yeah, >> Yeah, >> Yeah, >> that's sort of obvious. But talking is a >> that's sort of obvious. But talking is a >> that's sort of obvious. But talking is a bunch of actions, too. The muscle bunch of actions, too. The muscle bunch of actions, too. The muscle movements are pretty small. But in order movements are pretty small. But in order movements are pretty small. But in order to do what I'm doing right now, I have to do what I'm doing right now, I have to do what I'm doing right now, I have to make an internal plan of what I'm to make an internal plan of what I'm to make an internal plan of what I'm going to say. So, for example, if I going to say. So, for example, if I going to say. So, for example, if I wanted to say I might go to a restaurant wanted to say I might go to a restaurant wanted to say I might go to a restaurant or something and I want to say, um, I'll or something and I want to say, um, I'll or something and I want to say, um, I'll have the special with fries and a have the special with fries and a have the special with fries and a lemonade. Now, that's a really simple lemonade. Now, that's a really simple lemonade. Now, that's a really simple sentence, but in order to say that sentence, but in order to say that sentence, but in order to say that sentence, I have to get all of those sentence, I have to get all of those sentence, I have to get all of those words out of my long-term memory. So, words out of my long-term memory. So, words out of my long-term memory. So, special fries, lemonade, I'll have all special fries, lemonade, I'll have all special fries, lemonade, I'll have all that stuff. And I have to get those 10 that stuff. And I have to get those 10 that stuff. And I have to get those 10 words, whatever it was, out of 50 to a words, whatever it was, out of 50 to a words, whatever it was, out of 50 to a 100,000 words that I have in my memory. 100,000 words that I have in my memory. 100,000 words that I have in my memory. And only those 10 words. If you pull up And only those 10 words. If you pull up And only those 10 words. If you pull up all sorts of other words, you'll gum the all sorts of other words, you'll gum the all sorts of other words, you'll gum the whole thing up. So there's this very whole thing up. So there's this very whole thing up. So there's this very intense focusing activity that talking intense focusing activity that talking intense focusing activity that talking requires to pull what we want out of requires to pull what we want out of requires to pull what we want out of memory to convert the desire for the memory to convert the desire for the memory to convert the desire for the special and lemonade to actual words. special and lemonade to actual words. special and lemonade to actual words. And this conversion process is quite And this conversion process is quite And this conversion process is quite complex and effortful. And that's what complex and effortful. And that's what complex and effortful. And that's what makes talking harder than listening. makes talking harder than listening. makes talking harder than listening. So talking requires a lot of heavy So talking requires a lot of heavy So talking requires a lot of heavy cognitive lifting and you argue in the cognitive lifting and you argue in the cognitive lifting and you argue in the book that that book that that book that that uh to a certain extent applies even to uh to a certain extent applies even to uh to a certain extent applies even to baby talk um among babies. baby talk um among babies. baby talk um among babies. >> That's right. So little babies even >> That's right. So little babies even >> That's right. So little babies even before they're talking I call it like before they're talking I call it like before they're talking I call it like pre-talking pre-talking pre-talking uh are doing heavy lifting and they are uh are doing heavy lifting and they are uh are doing heavy lifting and they are doing several important cognitive doing several important cognitive doing several important cognitive activities when they're babbling away activities when they're babbling away activities when they're babbling away and some of it is social. they are and some of it is social. they are and some of it is social. they are actively trying to get the attention of actively trying to get the attention of actively trying to get the attention of the adults or the other humans or maybe the adults or the other humans or maybe the adults or the other humans or maybe the dog around them and get that other the dog around them and get that other the dog around them and get that other organism, human, dog, whatever, to organism, human, dog, whatever, to organism, human, dog, whatever, to engage with them. So, they are doing all engage with them. So, they are doing all engage with them. So, they are doing all of this important social action. They're of this important social action. They're of this important social action. They're not passive little sponges waiting for not passive little sponges waiting for not passive little sponges waiting for things to happen to them. They're using things to happen to them. They're using things to happen to them. They're using their own pre-talking to engage with the their own pre-talking to engage with the their own pre-talking to engage with the world. And also they're using their world. And also they're using their world. And also they're using their pre-talking to help tune their brains to pre-talking to help tune their brains to pre-talking to help tune their brains to pay attention to the language or pay attention to the language or pay attention to the language or languages that they're hearing in their languages that they're hearing in their languages that they're hearing in their environment. So their tongue movements environment. So their tongue movements environment. So their tongue movements and their whole vocal tract movements and their whole vocal tract movements and their whole vocal tract movements here are silently imitating what they're here are silently imitating what they're here are silently imitating what they're hearing. And those movements help them hearing. And those movements help them hearing. And those movements help them figure out what kinds of sounds the figure out what kinds of sounds the figure out what kinds of sounds the languages around them are being produced languages around them are being produced languages around them are being produced and help them focus on those languages. and help them focus on those languages. and help them focus on those languages. So the talking pre-talking helps their So the talking pre-talking helps their So the talking pre-talking helps their language acquisition. language acquisition. language acquisition. It's really interesting. the the book is It's really interesting. the the book is It's really interesting. the the book is filled with practical ways that we can filled with practical ways that we can filled with practical ways that we can you know sort of maximize this thing you know sort of maximize this thing you know sort of maximize this thing that again we are all doing every day to that again we are all doing every day to that again we are all doing every day to get all of the advertised benefits get all of the advertised benefits get all of the advertised benefits including you know with dementia including you know with dementia including you know with dementia protection and emotion regulation and protection and emotion regulation and protection and emotion regulation and decision-m etc etc. Um, one of the decision-m etc etc. Um, one of the decision-m etc etc. Um, one of the things you recommend, and we're going to things you recommend, and we're going to things you recommend, and we're going to dive into uh many many of the things you dive into uh many many of the things you dive into uh many many of the things you recommend, but one of the things you recommend, but one of the things you recommend, but one of the things you recommend, and this this just seems like recommend, and this this just seems like recommend, and this this just seems like interpersonal hygiene, is not to finish interpersonal hygiene, is not to finish interpersonal hygiene, is not to finish other people's sentences compulsively. other people's sentences compulsively. other people's sentences compulsively. You know, there are some people who when You know, there are some people who when You know, there are some people who when I listen to them talk, it's annoying I listen to them talk, it's annoying I listen to them talk, it's annoying because they take a long time to [ __ ] because they take a long time to [ __ ] because they take a long time to [ __ ] spit it out and um and I want to, you spit it out and um and I want to, you spit it out and um and I want to, you know, smack them on the head or finish know, smack them on the head or finish know, smack them on the head or finish Yeah. finish it for them. But you're Yeah. finish it for them. But you're Yeah. finish it for them. But you're saying actually that's not a you're saying actually that's not a you're saying actually that's not a you're you're kind of denying other people the you're kind of denying other people the you're kind of denying other people the benefits that we can get from talking if benefits that we can get from talking if benefits that we can get from talking if you take away their right to talk. you take away their right to talk. you take away their right to talk. >> Right. Right. So really, it's it's >> Right. Right. So really, it's it's >> Right. Right. So really, it's it's pretty rude, I think, in every culture pretty rude, I think, in every culture pretty rude, I think, in every culture that I know of, to finish people's that I know of, to finish people's that I know of, to finish people's sentences relentlessly. Occasionally, sentences relentlessly. Occasionally, sentences relentlessly. Occasionally, it's fine to help somebody out, but uh it's fine to help somebody out, but uh it's fine to help somebody out, but uh the our ability as listeners to finish the our ability as listeners to finish the our ability as listeners to finish other people's sentences really reflects other people's sentences really reflects other people's sentences really reflects the difficulty, the greater difficulty the difficulty, the greater difficulty the difficulty, the greater difficulty of talking and the slowness of talking of talking and the slowness of talking of talking and the slowness of talking compared to um listening. So, there are compared to um listening. So, there are compared to um listening. So, there are probably listeners of this podcast who probably listeners of this podcast who probably listeners of this podcast who have speeded up the podcast. No offense have speeded up the podcast. No offense have speeded up the podcast. No offense to you or to me, but we're talking more to you or to me, but we're talking more to you or to me, but we're talking more slowly than they can listen and they've slowly than they can listen and they've slowly than they can listen and they've got it cranked up to better accommodate got it cranked up to better accommodate got it cranked up to better accommodate their own faster listening abilities. their own faster listening abilities. their own faster listening abilities. >> Yeah, I get that. And I don't think >> Yeah, I get that. And I don't think >> Yeah, I get that. And I don't think that's rude at all. But what what is that's rude at all. But what what is that's rude at all. But what what is rude is and I and I again I think this rude is and I and I again I think this rude is and I and I again I think this this conversation and preparing for this this conversation and preparing for this this conversation and preparing for this conversation has sensitized me to this conversation has sensitized me to this conversation has sensitized me to this that when I'm feeling the urge to finish that when I'm feeling the urge to finish that when I'm feeling the urge to finish somebody else's sentence it's it's somebody else's sentence it's it's somebody else's sentence it's it's because I'm sitting in the privilege of because I'm sitting in the privilege of because I'm sitting in the privilege of being the e in the easier spot. being the e in the easier spot. being the e in the easier spot. >> Right. Right. And you know, you can try >> Right. Right. And you know, you can try >> Right. Right. And you know, you can try to stifle yourself everybody if you if to stifle yourself everybody if you if to stifle yourself everybody if you if you get in that spot and it's probably you get in that spot and it's probably you get in that spot and it's probably the polite thing to do. Yeah. the polite thing to do. Yeah. the polite thing to do. Yeah. >> Okay. So, let's get into some of the the >> Okay. So, let's get into some of the the >> Okay. So, let's get into some of the the practical um strategies for for you know practical um strategies for for you know practical um strategies for for you know harnessing this every everyday activity harnessing this every everyday activity harnessing this every everyday activity to our own benefit. You have a whole to our own benefit. You have a whole to our own benefit. You have a whole chapter about the power of self-talk and chapter about the power of self-talk and chapter about the power of self-talk and how to use talking to yourself to help how to use talking to yourself to help how to use talking to yourself to help with everyday tasks. So the people who with everyday tasks. So the people who with everyday tasks. So the people who have who know the most about harnessing have who know the most about harnessing have who know the most about harnessing self-t talk I think are athletes because self-t talk I think are athletes because self-t talk I think are athletes because they are in high power situations and uh they are in high power situations and uh they are in high power situations and uh athletic victory means money and they athletic victory means money and they athletic victory means money and they have coaches and a whole infrastructure have coaches and a whole infrastructure have coaches and a whole infrastructure designed to help them get everything out designed to help them get everything out designed to help them get everything out of their athletic performance and a lot of their athletic performance and a lot of their athletic performance and a lot of that is coaching them on self-talk of that is coaching them on self-talk of that is coaching them on self-talk and that kind of coaching is uh and that kind of coaching is uh and that kind of coaching is uh sometimes about emotion regulation. It's sometimes about emotion regulation. It's sometimes about emotion regulation. It's sometimes about strategy. Uh it's sometimes about strategy. Uh it's sometimes about strategy. Uh it's reminding helping them remember what reminding helping them remember what reminding helping them remember what they're supposed to be doing on the they're supposed to be doing on the they're supposed to be doing on the court or in the race and so on. And the court or in the race and so on. And the court or in the race and so on. And the rest of us can similarly rest of us can similarly rest of us can similarly gain benefits from self-t talk, but we gain benefits from self-t talk, but we gain benefits from self-t talk, but we don't know about it so much. Well, I was don't know about it so much. Well, I was don't know about it so much. Well, I was just thinking, let's imagine somebody just thinking, let's imagine somebody just thinking, let's imagine somebody who has to finish something. It might be who has to finish something. It might be who has to finish something. It might be a race, but it also might be a report or a race, but it also might be a report or a race, but it also might be a report or something for their work. And talking something for their work. And talking something for their work. And talking about the fact that they have to finish about the fact that they have to finish about the fact that they have to finish and talking about their strategy for and talking about their strategy for and talking about their strategy for getting it done will increase the getting it done will increase the getting it done will increase the chances that they actually do get it chances that they actually do get it chances that they actually do get it done. They say, "Oh, I've got to finish done. They say, "Oh, I've got to finish done. They say, "Oh, I've got to finish this report by this afternoon, and it's this report by this afternoon, and it's this report by this afternoon, and it's this middle section that's really this middle section that's really this middle section that's really bugging me, and I think I need to get my bugging me, and I think I need to get my bugging me, and I think I need to get my colleague to look at it, or some other colleague to look at it, or some other colleague to look at it, or some other strategy." Having done that, having strategy." Having done that, having strategy." Having done that, having retrieved the words, finish the report retrieved the words, finish the report retrieved the words, finish the report and colleague and all of that stuff, you and colleague and all of that stuff, you and colleague and all of that stuff, you focused your attention on the job that focused your attention on the job that focused your attention on the job that you have to do. And studies show that you have to do. And studies show that you have to do. And studies show that you will be more likely to in follow you will be more likely to in follow you will be more likely to in follow through on it, more likely to pay through on it, more likely to pay through on it, more likely to pay attention to it, more likely to focus on attention to it, more likely to focus on attention to it, more likely to focus on the parts that you've mentioned and so the parts that you've mentioned and so the parts that you've mentioned and so on. There's limits like I can't say I on. There's limits like I can't say I on. There's limits like I can't say I want to be an astronaut and I can't that want to be an astronaut and I can't that want to be an astronaut and I can't that won't focus my attention to being an won't focus my attention to being an won't focus my attention to being an astronaut and make me an astronaut. But astronaut and make me an astronaut. But astronaut and make me an astronaut. But for the talking for the talking for the talking nudges you down the road in reasonable nudges you down the road in reasonable nudges you down the road in reasonable but significant ways. It won't take but significant ways. It won't take but significant ways. It won't take something out of nothing like making me something out of nothing like making me something out of nothing like making me an astronaut, but it does a lot. an astronaut, but it does a lot. an astronaut, but it does a lot. >> So So you're saying that I guess I'm >> So So you're saying that I guess I'm >> So So you're saying that I guess I'm trying to figure out um back to trying to figure out um back to trying to figure out um back to interpersonal hygiene. I don't want to interpersonal hygiene. I don't want to interpersonal hygiene. I don't want to walk around boring everybody with my walk around boring everybody with my walk around boring everybody with my to-do list. So, how far do I want to to-do list. So, how far do I want to to-do list. So, how far do I want to take talking about the things I need to take talking about the things I need to take talking about the things I need to do in order to focus the mind on the do in order to focus the mind on the do in order to focus the mind on the things I need to do? things I need to do? things I need to do? >> There absolutely are strategies that >> There absolutely are strategies that >> There absolutely are strategies that people need to think about there. Um, people need to think about there. Um, people need to think about there. Um, I'm a person that talks to myself I'm a person that talks to myself I'm a person that talks to myself probably too much and people do call me probably too much and people do call me probably too much and people do call me out on it and it is rude to spend time out on it and it is rude to spend time out on it and it is rude to spend time thinking about this upcoming awkward thinking about this upcoming awkward thinking about this upcoming awkward thing that I need to think about um when thing that I need to think about um when thing that I need to think about um when I should be paying attention to the I should be paying attention to the I should be paying attention to the friends that I'm talking to. So friends that I'm talking to. So friends that I'm talking to. So definitely you want to definitely you want to definitely you want to do your self-t talk in a situation where do your self-t talk in a situation where do your self-t talk in a situation where you don't have talking to other people you don't have talking to other people you don't have talking to other people going on that maybe in the case of this going on that maybe in the case of this going on that maybe in the case of this finishing report idea. You're in your finishing report idea. You're in your finishing report idea. You're in your office in front of your computer. You office in front of your computer. You office in front of your computer. You don't have other people around and don't have other people around and don't have other people around and you're going to talk to yourself. You're you're going to talk to yourself. You're you're going to talk to yourself. You're going to write it down or you're going going to write it down or you're going going to write it down or you're going to talk in your head or you could say it to talk in your head or you could say it to talk in your head or you could say it out loud if you've got a quiet enough out loud if you've got a quiet enough out loud if you've got a quiet enough office um what your strategy is going to office um what your strategy is going to office um what your strategy is going to be. But you do want to use it be. But you do want to use it be. But you do want to use it strategically both to help you but also strategically both to help you but also strategically both to help you but also not to be rude to other people. Yeah. not to be rude to other people. Yeah. not to be rude to other people. Yeah. >> Uh so to do to to-do lists count in this >> Uh so to do to to-do lists count in this >> Uh so to do to to-do lists count in this regard? regard? regard? >> I think so. Yeah. I mean writing is a >> I think so. Yeah. I mean writing is a >> I think so. Yeah. I mean writing is a form of talking and to-do lists are very form of talking and to-do lists are very form of talking and to-do lists are very helpful and they are obviously an helpful and they are obviously an helpful and they are obviously an external reminder and that's a very external reminder and that's a very external reminder and that's a very useful thing when you come back to them useful thing when you come back to them useful thing when you come back to them two days later. But they're also two days later. But they're also two days later. But they're also focusing your attention on your goals. focusing your attention on your goals. focusing your attention on your goals. So many people, certainly included be So many people, certainly included be So many people, certainly included be writes a short grocery list down before writes a short grocery list down before writes a short grocery list down before going to the grocery of for the things going to the grocery of for the things going to the grocery of for the things that are a little unusual. that are a little unusual. that are a little unusual. And I've left that list at home I don't And I've left that list at home I don't And I've left that list at home I don't know how many times. But the act of know how many times. But the act of know how many times. But the act of having written down that I needed these having written down that I needed these having written down that I needed these three unusual things makes it much more three unusual things makes it much more three unusual things makes it much more likely that I will actually remember likely that I will actually remember likely that I will actually remember those things. even though it turns out those things. even though it turns out those things. even though it turns out the list isn't there for me. So the act the list isn't there for me. So the act the list isn't there for me. So the act of creating the list is a great first of creating the list is a great first of creating the list is a great first step to focusing attention. step to focusing attention. step to focusing attention. >> Staying with this idea of using selft >> Staying with this idea of using selft >> Staying with this idea of using selft talk with with tasks I believe you talk with with tasks I believe you talk with with tasks I believe you recommend that even when you're looking recommend that even when you're looking recommend that even when you're looking for your keys for example to talk about for your keys for example to talk about for your keys for example to talk about looking for the keys internally or even looking for the keys internally or even looking for the keys internally or even to say it out loud if you're not to say it out loud if you're not to say it out loud if you're not embarrassed that other people are embarrassed that other people are embarrassed that other people are watching you um can help. watching you um can help. watching you um can help. >> Yes. So studies show that when you are >> Yes. So studies show that when you are >> Yes. So studies show that when you are looking for something um like in fact looking for something um like in fact looking for something um like in fact many of the some of the studies are many of the some of the studies are many of the some of the studies are people looking for products on the people looking for products on the people looking for products on the grocery store shelves and so looking for grocery store shelves and so looking for grocery store shelves and so looking for something like keys or products saying something like keys or products saying something like keys or products saying the thing is actually helpful. And why the thing is actually helpful. And why the thing is actually helpful. And why would it work? Because you're saying the would it work? Because you're saying the would it work? Because you're saying the word keys, that helps you bring up the p word keys, that helps you bring up the p word keys, that helps you bring up the p mental picture of your own keys, not mental picture of your own keys, not mental picture of your own keys, not some random generic key, but what your some random generic key, but what your some random generic key, but what your keys look like. And having a target keys look like. And having a target keys look like. And having a target visual idea of what you are searching visual idea of what you are searching visual idea of what you are searching for actually will help you on average for actually will help you on average for actually will help you on average find them faster. Whether it is going to find them faster. Whether it is going to find them faster. Whether it is going to be life-changing finding your keys in 43 be life-changing finding your keys in 43 be life-changing finding your keys in 43 seconds versus a minute and a half. seconds versus a minute and a half. seconds versus a minute and a half. Well, it's still a real real difference. Well, it's still a real real difference. Well, it's still a real real difference. >> Yeah, it depends how late you are, >> Yeah, it depends how late you are, >> Yeah, it depends how late you are, >> right? Exactly. >> right? Exactly. >> right? Exactly. >> But I I would imagine where we're using >> But I I would imagine where we're using >> But I I would imagine where we're using a simple example of looking for your car a simple example of looking for your car a simple example of looking for your car keys, but it's scalable into more keys, but it's scalable into more keys, but it's scalable into more complex situations. complex situations. complex situations. >> That's right. So, anything that you need >> That's right. So, anything that you need >> That's right. So, anything that you need to focus on, it could be something to focus on, it could be something to focus on, it could be something you're looking for like the simple you're looking for like the simple you're looking for like the simple example of a car keys. It could be example of a car keys. It could be example of a car keys. It could be something that you are planning to do something that you are planning to do something that you are planning to do like the report and it also could be like the report and it also could be like the report and it also could be something long-term that you're something long-term that you're something long-term that you're planning. So you aim to go to college planning. So you aim to go to college planning. So you aim to go to college and you aim to have this major and you and you aim to have this major and you and you aim to have this major and you aim to have this job afterwards. There aim to have this job afterwards. There aim to have this job afterwards. There are these amazing studies that ask are these amazing studies that ask are these amazing studies that ask people who have people who have people who have chosen a path already and in the one chosen a path already and in the one chosen a path already and in the one I'll tell you about are students who I'll tell you about are students who I'll tell you about are students who were majoring in STEM. So the science were majoring in STEM. So the science were majoring in STEM. So the science one of the science fields. So medical one of the science fields. So medical one of the science fields. So medical uh chemical engineering um biology uh chemical engineering um biology uh chemical engineering um biology um all of those that group science, um all of those that group science, um all of those that group science, medicine, technology, engineering. medicine, technology, engineering. medicine, technology, engineering. And in those experiments, And in those experiments, And in those experiments, people asked the students in their people asked the students in their people asked the students in their freshman year, in their freshman freshman year, in their freshman freshman year, in their freshman chemistry class, chemistry class, chemistry class, half of them were asked to write about half of them were asked to write about half of them were asked to write about some of the chemistry topics that they some of the chemistry topics that they some of the chemistry topics that they were having in the class and the other were having in the class and the other were having in the class and the other half were asked to reflect about their half were asked to reflect about their half were asked to reflect about their choice to be a STEM major and why it is choice to be a STEM major and why it is choice to be a STEM major and why it is that they have chosen it and how this that they have chosen it and how this that they have chosen it and how this particular where chemistry class and the particular where chemistry class and the particular where chemistry class and the major are going to affect their lives. major are going to affect their lives. major are going to affect their lives. And so the act of writing all this down, And so the act of writing all this down, And so the act of writing all this down, a form of talking, is an act of a form of talking, is an act of a form of talking, is an act of reflection about their choices. And the reflection about their choices. And the reflection about their choices. And the studies show that the people who were studies show that the people who were studies show that the people who were reflecting in three essays in freshman reflecting in three essays in freshman reflecting in three essays in freshman chemistry chemistry chemistry 2 and a half years later when they were 2 and a half years later when they were 2 and a half years later when they were juniors had stuck with the major juniors had stuck with the major juniors had stuck with the major significantly more than the people who significantly more than the people who significantly more than the people who had just written about the chemistry had just written about the chemistry had just written about the chemistry topic. And so the act of talking about a topic. And so the act of talking about a topic. And so the act of talking about a goal and reflecting on it has real goal and reflecting on it has real goal and reflecting on it has real benefits for long-term planning and benefits for long-term planning and benefits for long-term planning and long-term perseverance. long-term perseverance. long-term perseverance. And that's a much bigger effect than And that's a much bigger effect than And that's a much bigger effect than finding your keys. Although if you need finding your keys. Although if you need finding your keys. Although if you need to get your keys to get to chemistry to get your keys to get to chemistry to get your keys to get to chemistry class, then that's another thing, class, then that's another thing, class, then that's another thing, >> right? Everything's connected. So two >> right? Everything's connected. So two >> right? Everything's connected. So two things are coming to mind as I'm things are coming to mind as I'm things are coming to mind as I'm listening to to you talk. One is that listening to to you talk. One is that listening to to you talk. One is that very frequently guests on this show will very frequently guests on this show will very frequently guests on this show will talk about the overweing importance of talk about the overweing importance of talk about the overweing importance of identifying and articulating to yourself identifying and articulating to yourself identifying and articulating to yourself and sometimes when useful uh to others and sometimes when useful uh to others and sometimes when useful uh to others your values as a north star and as a your values as a north star and as a your values as a north star and as a bone level uh cellular level reminder of bone level uh cellular level reminder of bone level uh cellular level reminder of what matters to you along those lines. I what matters to you along those lines. I what matters to you along those lines. I think um and I initially uh kind of think um and I initially uh kind of think um and I initially uh kind of rejected as is my want uh this whole rejected as is my want uh this whole rejected as is my want uh this whole body of work um because it's struck me body of work um because it's struck me body of work um because it's struck me as cheesy um but intention setting you as cheesy um but intention setting you as cheesy um but intention setting you know reminding yourself of like what know reminding yourself of like what know reminding yourself of like what every day you know for example I remind every day you know for example I remind every day you know for example I remind myself you know what's my job on the myself you know what's my job on the myself you know what's my job on the planet um as a way of articulating to planet um as a way of articulating to planet um as a way of articulating to myself here this this is what I'm all myself here this this is what I'm all myself here this this is what I'm all about those two things are coming to about those two things are coming to about those two things are coming to mind as I'm listening to talk about the mind as I'm listening to talk about the mind as I'm listening to talk about the essays that people wrote at the essays that people wrote at the essays that people wrote at the beginning of those um engineering ing beginning of those um engineering ing beginning of those um engineering ing classes. Does it feel to you that I'm classes. Does it feel to you that I'm classes. Does it feel to you that I'm making an appropriate connection here? making an appropriate connection here? making an appropriate connection here? >> I think so. So, the the students who >> I think so. So, the the students who >> I think so. So, the the students who were asked to talk about how their major were asked to talk about how their major were asked to talk about how their major was going to fit into their life goals was going to fit into their life goals was going to fit into their life goals didn't absolutely have to say what their didn't absolutely have to say what their didn't absolutely have to say what their life values were, but many of them would life values were, but many of them would life values were, but many of them would have done so because they want to they have done so because they want to they have done so because they want to they say things like, "I want to help the say things like, "I want to help the say things like, "I want to help the community. I'm a minority and there's community. I'm a minority and there's community. I'm a minority and there's not enough doctors in my community and I not enough doctors in my community and I not enough doctors in my community and I want to help my community and and those want to help my community and and those want to help my community and and those are absolutely ways of expressing values are absolutely ways of expressing values are absolutely ways of expressing values and um similarly and um similarly and um similarly there's all sorts of research about there's all sorts of research about there's all sorts of research about people keeping a journal which doesn't people keeping a journal which doesn't people keeping a journal which doesn't necessarily have to but often can have necessarily have to but often can have necessarily have to but often can have these qualities of expressing their these qualities of expressing their these qualities of expressing their values. I had people write in their values. I had people write in their values. I had people write in their journal about some conflict at work journal about some conflict at work journal about some conflict at work today and they could very much say how today and they could very much say how today and they could very much say how the conflict affected was affected by the conflict affected was affected by the conflict affected was affected by their values and they didn't share the their values and they didn't share the their values and they didn't share the values of their coworker. And so um values of their coworker. And so um values of their coworker. And so um >> there are definitely ways to >> there are definitely ways to >> there are definitely ways to deliberately express your values every deliberately express your values every deliberately express your values every day and think about those. And then day and think about those. And then day and think about those. And then there are these other kinds of talking there are these other kinds of talking there are these other kinds of talking environments like journaling which environments like journaling which environments like journaling which probably very naturally uh include probably very naturally uh include probably very naturally uh include expressing values and attitudes that are expressing values and attitudes that are expressing values and attitudes that are also ways to be really beneficial. also ways to be really beneficial. also ways to be really beneficial. >> I think it's possible and we'll see if >> I think it's possible and we'll see if >> I think it's possible and we'll see if you agree that there's more to say about you agree that there's more to say about you agree that there's more to say about the value of journaling as a form of the value of journaling as a form of the value of journaling as a form of talking as a form of selft talk really talking as a form of selft talk really talking as a form of selft talk really journaling and it's sometimes called journaling and it's sometimes called journaling and it's sometimes called expressive writing. H how um how yeah so expressive writing. H how um how yeah so expressive writing. H how um how yeah so what what more should we say about that? what what more should we say about that? what what more should we say about that? So journaling and and particularly Jamie So journaling and and particularly Jamie So journaling and and particularly Jamie Pennaker's expressive writing because he Pennaker's expressive writing because he Pennaker's expressive writing because he had this variant of journaling by that had this variant of journaling by that had this variant of journaling by that was writing about something emotionally was writing about something emotionally was writing about something emotionally bothersome shall we say and writing bothersome shall we say and writing bothersome shall we say and writing about the event and the emotions that uh about the event and the emotions that uh about the event and the emotions that uh were evoked and thinking forward and were evoked and thinking forward and were evoked and thinking forward and thinking backward and doing that not thinking backward and doing that not thinking backward and doing that not necessarily forever as journaling could necessarily forever as journaling could necessarily forever as journaling could in principle be forever but doing it for in principle be forever but doing it for in principle be forever but doing it for a number of days in a row for 20 30 a number of days in a row for 20 30 a number of days in a row for 20 30 minutes a day and uh it is a form of minutes a day and uh it is a form of minutes a day and uh it is a form of journaling. It's just sort of more journaling. It's just sort of more journaling. It's just sort of more compressed with a a particular set of compressed with a a particular set of compressed with a a particular set of instructions to focus on the emotional instructions to focus on the emotional instructions to focus on the emotional resonance of whatever incident is resonance of whatever incident is resonance of whatever incident is bothering the person. Journaling in bothering the person. Journaling in bothering the person. Journaling in general and the expressive writing general and the expressive writing general and the expressive writing variant of it have been studied variant of it have been studied variant of it have been studied enormously and journaling uh is and enormously and journaling uh is and enormously and journaling uh is and expressive writing is associated with expressive writing is associated with expressive writing is associated with better physical health, mental health, better physical health, mental health, better physical health, mental health, calm and acceptance. calm and acceptance. calm and acceptance. >> Like many men, I've been using the same >> Like many men, I've been using the same >> Like many men, I've been using the same razors pretty much my whole life. So, it razors pretty much my whole life. So, it razors pretty much my whole life. So, it was really cool to try a new brand was really cool to try a new brand was really cool to try a new brand recently. It's a company called Hensen, recently. It's a company called Hensen, recently. It's a company called Hensen, and they've got these old school razors and they've got these old school razors and they've got these old school razors that are super cool. Here's something that are super cool. Here's something that are super cool. Here's something interesting most people don't realize. interesting most people don't realize. interesting most people don't realize. Modern razors have quietly taught us to Modern razors have quietly taught us to Modern razors have quietly taught us to press harder than we should when we're press harder than we should when we're press harder than we should when we're shaving. And that's not really a bad shaving. And that's not really a bad shaving. And that's not really a bad habit. It's actually a design thing. habit. It's actually a design thing. habit. It's actually a design thing. 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Just a a note to listeners, I I've had Just a a note to listeners, I I've had Jamie Pedaker on, who's kind of the Jamie Pedaker on, who's kind of the Jamie Pedaker on, who's kind of the godfather of expressive writing on on godfather of expressive writing on on godfather of expressive writing on on the show, and I'll drop a link in the the show, and I'll drop a link in the the show, and I'll drop a link in the show notes, but you just listed a bunch show notes, but you just listed a bunch show notes, but you just listed a bunch of the benefits from expressive writing, of the benefits from expressive writing, of the benefits from expressive writing, which again is an a variant of which again is an a variant of which again is an a variant of journaling. journaling. journaling. Why? What do you what's the explanation Why? What do you what's the explanation Why? What do you what's the explanation for these positive effects? for these positive effects? for these positive effects? I think the positive effects are I think the positive effects are I think the positive effects are having to do with reflection and having to do with reflection and having to do with reflection and bringing to mind something in the past bringing to mind something in the past bringing to mind something in the past that is useful and having the space to that is useful and having the space to that is useful and having the space to talk about it. You know Joan Ddian who talk about it. You know Joan Ddian who talk about it. You know Joan Ddian who wrote I don't know whether she kept a wrote I don't know whether she kept a wrote I don't know whether she kept a journal but she wrote essays enormous journal but she wrote essays enormous journal but she wrote essays enormous numbers of essays and she said I write numbers of essays and she said I write numbers of essays and she said I write entirely to figure out what I'm entirely to figure out what I'm entirely to figure out what I'm thinking. M thinking. M thinking. M >> and the journaling, even if you don't >> and the journaling, even if you don't >> and the journaling, even if you don't publish it like Joan Ddian, publish it like Joan Ddian, publish it like Joan Ddian, has that effect. It turns kind of has that effect. It turns kind of has that effect. It turns kind of amorphous ideas, often swirling around amorphous ideas, often swirling around amorphous ideas, often swirling around with emotion, into more concrete, with emotion, into more concrete, with emotion, into more concrete, reasoned reasoned reasoned ideas about what it is you're doing in ideas about what it is you're doing in ideas about what it is you're doing in this world and how you're relating to this world and how you're relating to this world and how you're relating to other people. So, let me just expand on other people. So, let me just expand on other people. So, let me just expand on that a little bit. There's a lot of that a little bit. There's a lot of that a little bit. There's a lot of evidence that talking about something evidence that talking about something evidence that talking about something makes it more discreet and able to be makes it more discreet and able to be makes it more discreet and able to be accessed by your conscious mind. So if accessed by your conscious mind. So if accessed by your conscious mind. So if you for example you for example you for example witness a crime and the police interview witness a crime and the police interview witness a crime and the police interview you and you talk about the what you you and you talk about the what you you and you talk about the what you thought is the perpetrator of the crime, thought is the perpetrator of the crime, thought is the perpetrator of the crime, you can you got an image of him or her you can you got an image of him or her you can you got an image of him or her in your head and then you say something in your head and then you say something in your head and then you say something round face, dark hair, so tall, few round face, dark hair, so tall, few round face, dark hair, so tall, few other things. mentioning certain other things. mentioning certain other things. mentioning certain features of your visual memory makes features of your visual memory makes features of your visual memory makes those features very clear and memorable those features very clear and memorable those features very clear and memorable to you. to you. to you. >> And that's the sort of thing that I >> And that's the sort of thing that I >> And that's the sort of thing that I think is happening in journaling. You've think is happening in journaling. You've think is happening in journaling. You've got swirling emotions. You've got got swirling emotions. You've got got swirling emotions. You've got feelings of that you're not quite sure feelings of that you're not quite sure feelings of that you're not quite sure what you think. And the act of writing what you think. And the act of writing what you think. And the act of writing it down makes those ideas more discreet it down makes those ideas more discreet it down makes those ideas more discreet and more clear and more able to be and more clear and more able to be and more clear and more able to be thought about later and coming back to thought about later and coming back to thought about later and coming back to your previous entry and writing some your previous entry and writing some your previous entry and writing some more about it. That's that's letting you more about it. That's that's letting you more about it. That's that's letting you process if you like. But more than process if you like. But more than process if you like. But more than process the things you're writing about, process the things you're writing about, process the things you're writing about, you're making them clearer and more you're making them clearer and more you're making them clearer and more accessible to your mind. accessible to your mind. accessible to your mind. >> Yeah. Yeah. And I think when you move >> Yeah. Yeah. And I think when you move >> Yeah. Yeah. And I think when you move out of a kind of vague or mismatic sense out of a kind of vague or mismatic sense out of a kind of vague or mismatic sense of dread, fear, sadness, and and you're of dread, fear, sadness, and and you're of dread, fear, sadness, and and you're you're unburdening yourself and making you're unburdening yourself and making you're unburdening yourself and making your thoughts about the subject much your thoughts about the subject much your thoughts about the subject much clearer and therefore more manageable clearer and therefore more manageable clearer and therefore more manageable and workable. You know, it's just it's a and workable. You know, it's just it's a and workable. You know, it's just it's a a healing and helpful process. Along a healing and helpful process. Along a healing and helpful process. Along those lines, you also in your book those lines, you also in your book those lines, you also in your book mention that another aspect of self-t mention that another aspect of self-t mention that another aspect of self-t talk that can be very helpful is to get talk that can be very helpful is to get talk that can be very helpful is to get more detailed and accurate and granular more detailed and accurate and granular more detailed and accurate and granular in terms of describing our difficult in terms of describing our difficult in terms of describing our difficult emotions. emotions. emotions. >> That's right. So, lots of people can >> That's right. So, lots of people can >> That's right. So, lots of people can say, "Oh, I'm so upset." But they don't say, "Oh, I'm so upset." But they don't say, "Oh, I'm so upset." But they don't necessarily necessarily necessarily know what upset means. It might mean know what upset means. It might mean know what upset means. It might mean afraid, angry, disappointed, worried, afraid, angry, disappointed, worried, afraid, angry, disappointed, worried, and many more specific things. And in and many more specific things. And in and many more specific things. And in fact, we don't often talk about our fact, we don't often talk about our fact, we don't often talk about our emotions, our own emotions very much. emotions, our own emotions very much. emotions, our own emotions very much. It's a funny thing. We often say, "Oh, I It's a funny thing. We often say, "Oh, I It's a funny thing. We often say, "Oh, I just got off the phone with my brother just got off the phone with my brother just got off the phone with my brother and I'm so mad at him." So, you've said and I'm so mad at him." So, you've said and I'm so mad at him." So, you've said a little bit about anger there, but a little bit about anger there, but a little bit about anger there, but often we let the emotional tone of our often we let the emotional tone of our often we let the emotional tone of our voice, the pitch and the intonation voice, the pitch and the intonation voice, the pitch and the intonation convey some emotional information rather convey some emotional information rather convey some emotional information rather than actually naming the emotions we than actually naming the emotions we than actually naming the emotions we feel like worry or anger. And so it feel like worry or anger. And so it feel like worry or anger. And so it takes a bit of work sometimes to get takes a bit of work sometimes to get takes a bit of work sometimes to get beyond this kind of amorphous upset beyond this kind of amorphous upset beyond this kind of amorphous upset situation to being I'm actually scared situation to being I'm actually scared situation to being I'm actually scared and worried and also angry. And people and worried and also angry. And people and worried and also angry. And people have to dig to do that. But when they have to dig to do that. But when they have to dig to do that. But when they are encouraged to dig and figure out are encouraged to dig and figure out are encouraged to dig and figure out that exactly what upset is meaning here, that exactly what upset is meaning here, that exactly what upset is meaning here, they are able to obviously clarify their they are able to obviously clarify their they are able to obviously clarify their thinking because it's become now thinking because it's become now thinking because it's become now concrete that they are up not just upset concrete that they are up not just upset concrete that they are up not just upset but actually angry and worried. But also but actually angry and worried. But also but actually angry and worried. But also um naming emotions um naming emotions um naming emotions quiets activity in the lyic system in quiets activity in the lyic system in quiets activity in the lyic system in our brain which is relevant to the our brain which is relevant to the our brain which is relevant to the flight or fright flight or fright flight or fright relevant to the flight or fight aspects relevant to the flight or fight aspects relevant to the flight or fight aspects of regulating emotions. And by quieting of regulating emotions. And by quieting of regulating emotions. And by quieting the lyic system, we're able to think the lyic system, we're able to think the lyic system, we're able to think about the systemic the situation more about the systemic the situation more about the systemic the situation more rationally and not have rationally and not have rationally and not have overwhelming fly off the handle kind of overwhelming fly off the handle kind of overwhelming fly off the handle kind of reactions. I just got kind of what you reactions. I just got kind of what you reactions. I just got kind of what you just said to me takes me right back to just said to me takes me right back to just said to me takes me right back to this point that talking about our [ __ ] this point that talking about our [ __ ] this point that talking about our [ __ ] makes us feel better about the [ __ ] and makes us feel better about the [ __ ] and makes us feel better about the [ __ ] and even if it's talking to ourselves about even if it's talking to ourselves about even if it's talking to ourselves about it but can be particularly helpful to it but can be particularly helpful to it but can be particularly helpful to process in front of somebody else who process in front of somebody else who process in front of somebody else who can you know hear you out and ask can you know hear you out and ask can you know hear you out and ask clarifying questions um which brings me clarifying questions um which brings me clarifying questions um which brings me to this question which is uh some people to this question which is uh some people to this question which is uh some people really resist talking about their stuff really resist talking about their stuff really resist talking about their stuff I think historically I've been that type I think historically I've been that type I think historically I've been that type of person my wife asks me how you doing of person my wife asks me how you doing of person my wife asks me how you doing fine fine fine you know, or grunt some sort of you know, or grunt some sort of you know, or grunt some sort of non-answer. I have an 11-year-old son. non-answer. I have an 11-year-old son. non-answer. I have an 11-year-old son. It is often very difficult to get him to It is often very difficult to get him to It is often very difficult to get him to talk about his stuff. What do you talk about his stuff. What do you talk about his stuff. What do you recommend? And maybe you don't have any recommend? And maybe you don't have any recommend? And maybe you don't have any recommendations. Maybe this is just one recommendations. Maybe this is just one recommendations. Maybe this is just one of life's vexations that there's nothing of life's vexations that there's nothing of life's vexations that there's nothing we can do about. What possibly could you we can do about. What possibly could you we can do about. What possibly could you recommend to help us help other people recommend to help us help other people recommend to help us help other people who seem resistant to talking about who seem resistant to talking about who seem resistant to talking about their stuff? their stuff? their stuff? >> Right. >> Right. >> Right. So So So you pro it's it's tough to force an you pro it's it's tough to force an you pro it's it's tough to force an 11-year-old to talk about themselves or 11-year-old to talk about themselves or 11-year-old to talk about themselves or even a you know 41year-old. even a you know 41year-old. even a you know 41year-old. Um Um Um sometimes people who won't talk to other sometimes people who won't talk to other sometimes people who won't talk to other people about their emotional situations people about their emotional situations people about their emotional situations will be talked into doing some form of will be talked into doing some form of will be talked into doing some form of journaling. Maybe not. Maybe they if journaling. Maybe not. Maybe they if journaling. Maybe not. Maybe they if they don't want to write stuff down, they don't want to write stuff down, they don't want to write stuff down, they could possibly record things on they could possibly record things on they could possibly record things on their phone just for themselves. They their phone just for themselves. They their phone just for themselves. They could talk in their head. They could could talk in their head. They could could talk in their head. They could type it on their phone or on their type it on their phone or on their type it on their phone or on their computer. There's a lot of ways to talk computer. There's a lot of ways to talk computer. There's a lot of ways to talk to yourself. Um, and in fact, a lot of to yourself. Um, and in fact, a lot of to yourself. Um, and in fact, a lot of therapists encourage people to journal, therapists encourage people to journal, therapists encourage people to journal, not because the therapist is going to not because the therapist is going to not because the therapist is going to read the journal, but because the act of read the journal, but because the act of read the journal, but because the act of journaling itself is is an act of journaling itself is is an act of journaling itself is is an act of reflection that turns out to help people reflection that turns out to help people reflection that turns out to help people more. It's hard to get a tculent person more. It's hard to get a tculent person more. It's hard to get a tculent person to change their habits, but that's one to change their habits, but that's one to change their habits, but that's one route possibly. Um, other roots you can route possibly. Um, other roots you can route possibly. Um, other roots you can maybe be persistent. I, you know, it's maybe be persistent. I, you know, it's maybe be persistent. I, you know, it's tricky. I I think you're right. It's a tricky. I I think you're right. It's a tricky. I I think you're right. It's a tricky thing for somebody who has very tricky thing for somebody who has very tricky thing for somebody who has very deep-seated habits of not talking about deep-seated habits of not talking about deep-seated habits of not talking about how they're feeling. Trying to get them how they're feeling. Trying to get them how they're feeling. Trying to get them to do something that is um against all to do something that is um against all to do something that is um against all their habits. It's possible that since their habits. It's possible that since their habits. It's possible that since we've talked about it, expressive we've talked about it, expressive we've talked about it, expressive writing is a root to it because it's not writing is a root to it because it's not writing is a root to it because it's not a lifetime or experience. Expressive a lifetime or experience. Expressive a lifetime or experience. Expressive writing is often asking somebody to do writing is often asking somebody to do writing is often asking somebody to do 20 minutes a day for three days. And 20 minutes a day for three days. And 20 minutes a day for three days. And somebody who can't get past the idea of somebody who can't get past the idea of somebody who can't get past the idea of writing in a journal every single day writing in a journal every single day writing in a journal every single day could possibly get to the point of maybe could possibly get to the point of maybe could possibly get to the point of maybe writing about one thing for 3 days. So writing about one thing for 3 days. So writing about one thing for 3 days. So yeah. yeah. yeah. >> Okay. So moving on, there's there's this >> Okay. So moving on, there's there's this >> Okay. So moving on, there's there's this this whole chapter on how we can use this whole chapter on how we can use this whole chapter on how we can use talking to learn better. And this is of talking to learn better. And this is of talking to learn better. And this is of course not just for students. This is course not just for students. This is course not just for students. This is for all of us. we all need to learn in for all of us. we all need to learn in for all of us. we all need to learn in order to imp continue to uh grow and order to imp continue to uh grow and order to imp continue to uh grow and improve and and excel and perform at our improve and and excel and perform at our improve and and excel and perform at our best. You start by talking about a myth best. You start by talking about a myth best. You start by talking about a myth that you call the understanding equals that you call the understanding equals that you call the understanding equals learning myth. Can you talk about what learning myth. Can you talk about what learning myth. Can you talk about what that is? that is? that is? >> Yeah. So, you're listening to a >> Yeah. So, you're listening to a >> Yeah. So, you're listening to a documentary or you're a student in class documentary or you're a student in class documentary or you're a student in class and you hear something and you hear something and you hear something that um seems pretty interesting to you that um seems pretty interesting to you that um seems pretty interesting to you and you are aware that you understood it and you are aware that you understood it and you are aware that you understood it and people typically believe that if and people typically believe that if and people typically believe that if they've understood it, they've learned they've understood it, they've learned they've understood it, they've learned it. That that's the myth. It's a myth it. That that's the myth. It's a myth it. That that's the myth. It's a myth because your conscious feeling about because your conscious feeling about because your conscious feeling about understanding is not the same thing as understanding is not the same thing as understanding is not the same thing as learning. Learning happens usually learning. Learning happens usually learning. Learning happens usually overnight overnight overnight when memories from events and facts and when memories from events and facts and when memories from events and facts and whatever of the day are laid down in our whatever of the day are laid down in our whatever of the day are laid down in our permanent long-term memory by this piece permanent long-term memory by this piece permanent long-term memory by this piece of the brain called the hippocampus. And of the brain called the hippocampus. And of the brain called the hippocampus. And the hippocampus never tells us what it's the hippocampus never tells us what it's the hippocampus never tells us what it's doing. It obviously doesn't record every doing. It obviously doesn't record every doing. It obviously doesn't record every experience of every millisecond of our experience of every millisecond of our experience of every millisecond of our days. It selectively encodes things that days. It selectively encodes things that days. It selectively encodes things that we have engaged with or seem important we have engaged with or seem important we have engaged with or seem important to us. And the fact that we've heard to us. And the fact that we've heard to us. And the fact that we've heard something and understood it and maybe something and understood it and maybe something and understood it and maybe thought it was pretty interesting thought it was pretty interesting thought it was pretty interesting doesn't guarantee that we'll have doesn't guarantee that we'll have doesn't guarantee that we'll have learned it. What does help us learn is learned it. What does help us learn is learned it. What does help us learn is engaging with it more. it more. And the engaging with it more. it more. And the engaging with it more. it more. And the the best way to engage with it is to the best way to engage with it is to the best way to engage with it is to talk about it to yourself some more or talk about it to yourself some more or talk about it to yourself some more or ideally with somebody else because if ideally with somebody else because if ideally with somebody else because if it's an interesting thing, you probably it's an interesting thing, you probably it's an interesting thing, you probably want to tell them about it. So by want to tell them about it. So by want to tell them about it. So by talking about it, you've engaged with it talking about it, you've engaged with it talking about it, you've engaged with it and you've increased the chance that the and you've increased the chance that the and you've increased the chance that the hippocampus is going to consider this to hippocampus is going to consider this to hippocampus is going to consider this to be important stuff and have you learn be important stuff and have you learn be important stuff and have you learn it. But the immediate understanding it. But the immediate understanding it. But the immediate understanding part, if you never interact with it part, if you never interact with it part, if you never interact with it again, is probably going to be gone. again, is probably going to be gone. again, is probably going to be gone. >> I was at a um an event recently where I >> I was at a um an event recently where I >> I was at a um an event recently where I spoke very briefly and I said something spoke very briefly and I said something spoke very briefly and I said something about Buddhism and said one of my about Buddhism and said one of my about Buddhism and said one of my friends was at the event said, "Well, friends was at the event said, "Well, friends was at the event said, "Well, how do you know so much about Buddhism?" how do you know so much about Buddhism?" how do you know so much about Buddhism?" And I didn't want to say, "Well, I've And I didn't want to say, "Well, I've And I didn't want to say, "Well, I've been hosting this [ __ ] podcast for 10 been hosting this [ __ ] podcast for 10 been hosting this [ __ ] podcast for 10 years." But um I think it's it's it's years." But um I think it's it's it's years." But um I think it's it's it's not just that I've hosted this podcast. not just that I've hosted this podcast. not just that I've hosted this podcast. It's it's that I am forced as a part of It's it's that I am forced as a part of It's it's that I am forced as a part of my job to ask questions, articulate back my job to ask questions, articulate back my job to ask questions, articulate back what I've heard and understood to the what I've heard and understood to the what I've heard and understood to the people I'm talking to, then sometimes people I'm talking to, then sometimes people I'm talking to, then sometimes talk about it in public. I'm I am doing talk about it in public. I'm I am doing talk about it in public. I'm I am doing the cognitive work that we began this the cognitive work that we began this the cognitive work that we began this conversation by talking about. In other conversation by talking about. In other conversation by talking about. In other words, talking pounded into my neurons words, talking pounded into my neurons words, talking pounded into my neurons in a deeper, more abiding way. in a deeper, more abiding way. in a deeper, more abiding way. >> Yeah. Yes. That's right. And and it's >> Yeah. Yes. That's right. And and it's >> Yeah. Yes. That's right. And and it's interesting because sometimes people who interesting because sometimes people who interesting because sometimes people who practice Buddhism say to me, "Well, practice Buddhism say to me, "Well, practice Buddhism say to me, "Well, what's this with all this emphasis on what's this with all this emphasis on what's this with all this emphasis on talking? Doesn't the Buddha say that talking? Doesn't the Buddha say that talking? Doesn't the Buddha say that listening is more important?" And I'm listening is more important?" And I'm listening is more important?" And I'm thinking, "Oh my god, here I am. I'm 10% thinking, "Oh my god, here I am. I'm 10% thinking, "Oh my god, here I am. I'm 10% happier criticism than the Buddha." But happier criticism than the Buddha." But happier criticism than the Buddha." But I don't think that's quite right. I I don't think that's quite right. I I don't think that's quite right. I think that uh in the case that we just think that uh in the case that we just think that uh in the case that we just talked about where the myth that that talked about where the myth that that talked about where the myth that that understanding equals learning in the understanding equals learning in the understanding equals learning in the olden days I would say people learn olden days I would say people learn olden days I would say people learn something new and they had the mental something new and they had the mental something new and they had the mental space to ponder it and think about it space to ponder it and think about it space to ponder it and think about it themselves do the mental work of getting themselves do the mental work of getting themselves do the mental work of getting it solidified and learned. But in our it solidified and learned. But in our it solidified and learned. But in our day-to-day existence now, you learn day-to-day existence now, you learn day-to-day existence now, you learn something new and then you send three something new and then you send three something new and then you send three emails about something different and emails about something different and emails about something different and then you scroll on your phone and then then you scroll on your phone and then then you scroll on your phone and then you talk to your boss and and that new you talk to your boss and and that new you talk to your boss and and that new thing doesn't have the mental space to thing doesn't have the mental space to thing doesn't have the mental space to be encoded by your hippocampus and be encoded by your hippocampus and be encoded by your hippocampus and talking about it is really the helper in talking about it is really the helper in talking about it is really the helper in this case and the amplifier that that this case and the amplifier that that this case and the amplifier that that was started by the listening. One one was started by the listening. One one was started by the listening. One one last little reflection on this when I last little reflection on this when I last little reflection on this when I when I was looking at this part of your when I was looking at this part of your when I was looking at this part of your book. I was thinking about a book that I book. I was thinking about a book that I book. I was thinking about a book that I read in the 90s back when I had when I read in the 90s back when I had when I read in the 90s back when I had when I was in my 20s um and had more energy to was in my 20s um and had more energy to was in my 20s um and had more energy to do extreme things. But David Foster do extreme things. But David Foster do extreme things. But David Foster Wallace wrote a thousandpage book called Wallace wrote a thousandpage book called Wallace wrote a thousandpage book called Infinite Jest that was popular among my Infinite Jest that was popular among my Infinite Jest that was popular among my cohort in that time. And there was just cohort in that time. And there was just cohort in that time. And there was just this one line that I that has I can't this one line that I that has I can't this one line that I that has I can't remember much about the book because remember much about the book because remember much about the book because it's been 30 years. But there's this one it's been 30 years. But there's this one it's been 30 years. But there's this one line that I still think about where the line that I still think about where the line that I still think about where the kid is a the main character is a I think kid is a the main character is a I think kid is a the main character is a I think a student at a tennis academy and um he a student at a tennis academy and um he a student at a tennis academy and um he has this off-hand line about how he is has this off-hand line about how he is has this off-hand line about how he is mentoring younger students and in mentoring younger students and in mentoring younger students and in explaining things to them realizes what explaining things to them realizes what explaining things to them realizes what he thinks which is right back to your he thinks which is right back to your he thinks which is right back to your Joan Ddian comment and Joan Ddian comment and Joan Ddian comment and >> and you know it just can it it it's just >> and you know it just can it it it's just >> and you know it just can it it it's just an incredibly valuable able way to an incredibly valuable able way to an incredibly valuable able way to encode encode encode uh instead of briefly absorb and then uh instead of briefly absorb and then uh instead of briefly absorb and then get it uh lost in the endless tsunami of get it uh lost in the endless tsunami of get it uh lost in the endless tsunami of information. information. information. >> That's right. And and people mistakenly >> That's right. And and people mistakenly >> That's right. And and people mistakenly say, well, talking isn't learning. You say, well, talking isn't learning. You say, well, talking isn't learning. You already know what you know. But these already know what you know. But these already know what you know. But these examples, both the David Foster Wallace examples, both the David Foster Wallace examples, both the David Foster Wallace and the Joan Ddian and all sorts of and the Joan Ddian and all sorts of and the Joan Ddian and all sorts of other personal examples are that in fact other personal examples are that in fact other personal examples are that in fact the act of talking is a clarifying act the act of talking is a clarifying act the act of talking is a clarifying act really and it helps you know what you really and it helps you know what you really and it helps you know what you know and learn what you know. know and learn what you know. know and learn what you know. >> Just to say on Buddhism, I'm not aware >> Just to say on Buddhism, I'm not aware >> Just to say on Buddhism, I'm not aware that the Buddha ever said that listening that the Buddha ever said that listening that the Buddha ever said that listening is more important than talking. Maybe he is more important than talking. Maybe he is more important than talking. Maybe he did, but the Buddhist did a lot of did, but the Buddhist did a lot of did, but the Buddhist did a lot of talking. There are thousands and talking. There are thousands and talking. There are thousands and thousands of pages of Buddhist texts. In thousands of pages of Buddhist texts. In thousands of pages of Buddhist texts. In other words, um, transcripts essentially other words, um, transcripts essentially other words, um, transcripts essentially of the stuff he said 2600 years ago. And of the stuff he said 2600 years ago. And of the stuff he said 2600 years ago. And in his eightpart in his eightpart in his eightpart cookbook for enlightenment, the cookbook for enlightenment, the cookbook for enlightenment, the eight-fold path, one of the entries is eight-fold path, one of the entries is eight-fold path, one of the entries is right speech. So, um, I don't think he right speech. So, um, I don't think he right speech. So, um, I don't think he was anti-spech. Okay, was anti-spech. Okay, was anti-spech. Okay, >> good. >> good. >> good. Moving along here. You you have a whole Moving along here. You you have a whole Moving along here. You you have a whole chapter about the impact of talking on chapter about the impact of talking on chapter about the impact of talking on aging well on dementia prevention which aging well on dementia prevention which aging well on dementia prevention which you invoked earlier. What should we know you invoked earlier. What should we know you invoked earlier. What should we know about how to use again this daily about how to use again this daily about how to use again this daily activity of talking in all of its forms activity of talking in all of its forms activity of talking in all of its forms to uh help us uh pre protect our memory? to uh help us uh pre protect our memory? to uh help us uh pre protect our memory? >> Well, engaging with people. So the >> Well, engaging with people. So the >> Well, engaging with people. So the social there's a major social component social there's a major social component social there's a major social component to dementia pres prevention, but talking to dementia pres prevention, but talking to dementia pres prevention, but talking a lot and and listening to people and a lot and and listening to people and a lot and and listening to people and having back and forth conversations and having back and forth conversations and having back and forth conversations and engaging with their perspectives and engaging with their perspectives and engaging with their perspectives and saying your own perspectives is really saying your own perspectives is really saying your own perspectives is really what seems to be critically important what seems to be critically important what seems to be critically important for developing for developing for developing resilience against dementia. And so it resilience against dementia. And so it resilience against dementia. And so it sounds easy, but in fact, uh, for sounds easy, but in fact, uh, for sounds easy, but in fact, uh, for elderly adults, um, people who have elderly adults, um, people who have elderly adults, um, people who have retired, it often isn't easy anymore. retired, it often isn't easy anymore. retired, it often isn't easy anymore. You have to find somebody to have a You have to find somebody to have a You have to find somebody to have a conversation with. You have to be able conversation with. You have to be able conversation with. You have to be able to get out, uh, unless you or remember to get out, uh, unless you or remember to get out, uh, unless you or remember how to use Zoom or something like that. how to use Zoom or something like that. how to use Zoom or something like that. And there's a lot of data suggesting And there's a lot of data suggesting And there's a lot of data suggesting that older adults are quite isolated, that older adults are quite isolated, that older adults are quite isolated, quite lonely, and don't have a lot of quite lonely, and don't have a lot of quite lonely, and don't have a lot of talking opportunities. And um there's talking opportunities. And um there's talking opportunities. And um there's very little infrastructure for helping very little infrastructure for helping very little infrastructure for helping them do something different. Even though them do something different. Even though them do something different. Even though we it's preventive medicine in a sense we it's preventive medicine in a sense we it's preventive medicine in a sense or preventive activities, preventive or preventive activities, preventive or preventive activities, preventive behaviors and there's all sorts of behaviors and there's all sorts of behaviors and there's all sorts of discussion about how old people should discussion about how old people should discussion about how old people should go out to exercise or whatever. But go out to exercise or whatever. But go out to exercise or whatever. But there's very little realization that there's very little realization that there's very little realization that having them go out to talk to each having them go out to talk to each having them go out to talk to each other, including while they're other, including while they're other, including while they're exercising if they want, uh is a really exercising if they want, uh is a really exercising if they want, uh is a really good mental good mental good mental stimulation for them. I've really seen stimulation for them. I've really seen stimulation for them. I've really seen this with my mom um who uh just um this with my mom um who uh just um this with my mom um who uh just um actually the day before we're recording actually the day before we're recording actually the day before we're recording this uh turned 82 and sent me a text this uh turned 82 and sent me a text this uh turned 82 and sent me a text saying she's happier than she's ever saying she's happier than she's ever saying she's happier than she's ever been. Um, and I think the major variable been. Um, and I think the major variable been. Um, and I think the major variable there is that even though she was pretty there is that even though she was pretty there is that even though she was pretty antisocial her whole life, she was a antisocial her whole life, she was a antisocial her whole life, she was a pioneering lymphoma uh expert. Um, and pioneering lymphoma uh expert. Um, and pioneering lymphoma uh expert. Um, and deliberately went into after getting her deliberately went into after getting her deliberately went into after getting her medical degree went into pathology medical degree went into pathology medical degree went into pathology instead of anything that would require instead of anything that would require instead of anything that would require her treating patients because she didn't her treating patients because she didn't her treating patients because she didn't want to hear people whine. She also want to hear people whine. She also want to hear people whine. She also didn't want to hear her children whine. didn't want to hear her children whine. didn't want to hear her children whine. Um uh so she was not uh super social as Um uh so she was not uh super social as Um uh so she was not uh super social as a as a middle-aged person, but I we had a as a middle-aged person, but I we had a as a middle-aged person, but I we had the great privilege of being able to the great privilege of being able to the great privilege of being able to move her and my father into an assisted move her and my father into an assisted move her and my father into an assisted living facility, a really a great one. living facility, a really a great one. living facility, a really a great one. And she's like the mayor of this place And she's like the mayor of this place And she's like the mayor of this place and is just going to every activity and and is just going to every activity and and is just going to every activity and talking, you know, they're very talking, you know, they're very talking, you know, they're very interactive, all the activities, and interactive, all the activities, and interactive, all the activities, and she's talking even to people who can't she's talking even to people who can't she's talking even to people who can't even talk back, she'll talk. I think she even talk back, she'll talk. I think she even talk back, she'll talk. I think she prefers those discussions. Um, and I prefers those discussions. Um, and I prefers those discussions. Um, and I just see I think there's a direct just see I think there's a direct just see I think there's a direct bearing on the amount of talking she's bearing on the amount of talking she's bearing on the amount of talking she's doing and her happiness and the fact doing and her happiness and the fact doing and her happiness and the fact that her brain is functioning so well at that her brain is functioning so well at that her brain is functioning so well at um at the age of 82. And it's just it's um at the age of 82. And it's just it's um at the age of 82. And it's just it's it's awesome to see. And I I w I I I it's awesome to see. And I I w I I I it's awesome to see. And I I w I I I will I do want to make a note that one will I do want to make a note that one will I do want to make a note that one thing you say in the book is that thing you say in the book is that thing you say in the book is that prioritizing conversation over brain prioritizing conversation over brain prioritizing conversation over brain games which many people do engage with games which many people do engage with games which many people do engage with as a way to prevent against um cognitive as a way to prevent against um cognitive as a way to prevent against um cognitive decline. You say that brain games are decline. You say that brain games are decline. You say that brain games are way less impactful than than this simple way less impactful than than this simple way less impactful than than this simple act of staying in touch with people. act of staying in touch with people. act of staying in touch with people. >> That's right. People should play those >> That's right. People should play those >> That's right. People should play those ba brain games um if they don't cost too ba brain games um if they don't cost too ba brain games um if they don't cost too much and if they're fun. But uh they are much and if they're fun. But uh they are much and if they're fun. But uh they are not known to provide any dementia not known to provide any dementia not known to provide any dementia prevention. Maybe crossword puzzles. prevention. Maybe crossword puzzles. prevention. Maybe crossword puzzles. There's a little bit of e evidence There's a little bit of e evidence There's a little bit of e evidence suggesting that that might be helpful. suggesting that that might be helpful. suggesting that that might be helpful. maybe some other word games, but the maybe some other word games, but the maybe some other word games, but the amount of money that's been poured into amount of money that's been poured into amount of money that's been poured into convincing people that brain games are convincing people that brain games are convincing people that brain games are going to save them uh is way way higher going to save them uh is way way higher going to save them uh is way way higher than the actual data that uh brain games than the actual data that uh brain games than the actual data that uh brain games are have any value in dementia are have any value in dementia are have any value in dementia prevention. prevention. prevention. >> I'm recording this midafter afternoon >> I'm recording this midafter afternoon >> I'm recording this midafter afternoon and uh I'm not going to lie to you, I'm and uh I'm not going to lie to you, I'm and uh I'm not going to lie to you, I'm I'm having a little bit of that I'm having a little bit of that I'm having a little bit of that mid-afternoon energy dip. 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Uh in the book you talk about the Uh in the book you talk about the Uh in the book you talk about the importance of practicing for highstakes importance of practicing for highstakes importance of practicing for highstakes scenarios by sort of rehearsing what scenarios by sort of rehearsing what scenarios by sort of rehearsing what you're going to say either internally or you're going to say either internally or you're going to say either internally or by speaking out loud. Can you uh hold by speaking out loud. Can you uh hold by speaking out loud. Can you uh hold forth on that a little bit? forth on that a little bit? forth on that a little bit? >> Sure. I mean we all know that athletic >> Sure. I mean we all know that athletic >> Sure. I mean we all know that athletic skill comes with enormous amount of skill comes with enormous amount of skill comes with enormous amount of practice and talking skill similarly practice and talking skill similarly practice and talking skill similarly comes with practice. The conversation comes with practice. The conversation comes with practice. The conversation practice and also for highstakes practice and also for highstakes practice and also for highstakes situations like a job interview you know situations like a job interview you know situations like a job interview you know career centers help people practice career centers help people practice career centers help people practice their job interview. Exactly. because their job interview. Exactly. because their job interview. Exactly. because this is the kind of situation in which this is the kind of situation in which this is the kind of situation in which practice talking and practicing practice talking and practicing practice talking and practicing answering questions would be beneficial. answering questions would be beneficial. answering questions would be beneficial. And so for other kinds of high And so for other kinds of high And so for other kinds of high highstakes situations, of course, people highstakes situations, of course, people highstakes situations, of course, people practice giving speeches, but you can practice giving speeches, but you can practice giving speeches, but you can practice any kind of difficult practice any kind of difficult practice any kind of difficult conversation. You know, you have to talk conversation. You know, you have to talk conversation. You know, you have to talk to your partner about something to your partner about something to your partner about something difficult, you could practice what you difficult, you could practice what you difficult, you could practice what you wanted to say. The conversation is never wanted to say. The conversation is never wanted to say. The conversation is never going to go exactly the way you think going to go exactly the way you think going to go exactly the way you think it's going to go because the other it's going to go because the other it's going to go because the other person has different ideas naturally. person has different ideas naturally. person has different ideas naturally. But you can practice saying what you But you can practice saying what you But you can practice saying what you want in a queer way that's not inflaming want in a queer way that's not inflaming want in a queer way that's not inflaming the situation or you can practice how the situation or you can practice how the situation or you can practice how you might react if they push back, you you might react if they push back, you you might react if they push back, you know, and what would your reply be and know, and what would your reply be and know, and what would your reply be and and so forth. So you can practice and so forth. So you can practice and so forth. So you can practice talking whenever you need to. talking whenever you need to. talking whenever you need to. >> I uh have mentioned this in past >> I uh have mentioned this in past >> I uh have mentioned this in past podcasts, so I apologize to regular podcasts, so I apologize to regular podcasts, so I apologize to regular listeners who've heard me say this listeners who've heard me say this listeners who've heard me say this before, but it it just I feel worth before, but it it just I feel worth before, but it it just I feel worth noting yet again that I I've uh for many noting yet again that I I've uh for many noting yet again that I I've uh for many years worked with communications coaches years worked with communications coaches years worked with communications coaches who uh help me with my um interpersonal who uh help me with my um interpersonal who uh help me with my um interpersonal skills. And um one of the things that we skills. And um one of the things that we skills. And um one of the things that we do when I talk to them every month or so do when I talk to them every month or so do when I talk to them every month or so is rehearse for big conversations. And I is rehearse for big conversations. And I is rehearse for big conversations. And I found it 100% of the time it helps make found it 100% of the time it helps make found it 100% of the time it helps make those conversations uh more uh those conversations uh more uh those conversations uh more uh successful. successful. successful. >> What he said, folks, he's right. >> What he said, folks, he's right. >> What he said, folks, he's right. >> Yes. >> Yes. >> Yes. >> Okay. Another practical question. And I >> Okay. Another practical question. And I >> Okay. Another practical question. And I say this a toward to till the you know say this a toward to till the you know say this a toward to till the you know back half of the conversation uh because back half of the conversation uh because back half of the conversation uh because it has to do with kids and I'm always it has to do with kids and I'm always it has to do with kids and I'm always sensitive to the fact that there people sensitive to the fact that there people sensitive to the fact that there people listening who don't have kids or don't listening who don't have kids or don't listening who don't have kids or don't care about kids. Um so I'll just ask care about kids. Um so I'll just ask care about kids. Um so I'll just ask this and uh for for those of us who do this and uh for for those of us who do this and uh for for those of us who do have children. You are pretty u adamant have children. You are pretty u adamant have children. You are pretty u adamant about the importance of not not only not about the importance of not not only not about the importance of not not only not having your children get overly exposed having your children get overly exposed having your children get overly exposed to screens, but also not as adults using to screens, but also not as adults using to screens, but also not as adults using our screens too much around children our screens too much around children our screens too much around children because we should be talking to them and because we should be talking to them and because we should be talking to them and getting them talking as a way to develop getting them talking as a way to develop getting them talking as a way to develop their brain. I just want to give you a their brain. I just want to give you a their brain. I just want to give you a chance to say a little bit more about chance to say a little bit more about chance to say a little bit more about that. that. that. >> Right. So I think the that position that >> Right. So I think the that position that >> Right. So I think the that position that you just described, my position really you just described, my position really you just described, my position really comes from the science of talking and comes from the science of talking and comes from the science of talking and all the benefits that talking has. So all the benefits that talking has. So all the benefits that talking has. So parents hear a lot that they should be parents hear a lot that they should be parents hear a lot that they should be talking to their kids and that's not talking to their kids and that's not talking to their kids and that's not wrong. wrong. wrong. But what they don't hear is that they But what they don't hear is that they But what they don't hear is that they should be encouraging the kids to talk should be encouraging the kids to talk should be encouraging the kids to talk themselves. themselves. themselves. But the recent science suggests that the But the recent science suggests that the But the recent science suggests that the amount of the kids's own talking is at amount of the kids's own talking is at amount of the kids's own talking is at least as predictive of their cognitive least as predictive of their cognitive least as predictive of their cognitive development and their readiness for development and their readiness for development and their readiness for school and their learning to read and school and their learning to read and school and their learning to read and all of this as the sheer amount of all of this as the sheer amount of all of this as the sheer amount of talking that that parents have said. And talking that that parents have said. And talking that that parents have said. And a related point is if the parents a related point is if the parents a related point is if the parents internalize this idea that the child is internalize this idea that the child is internalize this idea that the child is this sponge that needs lots of language this sponge that needs lots of language this sponge that needs lots of language input, they can think that well they can input, they can think that well they can input, they can think that well they can talk to them, but they also could hand talk to them, but they also could hand talk to them, but they also could hand them the iPad, the tablet, and have a them the iPad, the tablet, and have a them the iPad, the tablet, and have a little show talk to them. And that's little show talk to them. And that's little show talk to them. And that's true. There might be some talking on the true. There might be some talking on the true. There might be some talking on the little show. But if we think that the little show. But if we think that the little show. But if we think that the child's own talking is so crucial, in child's own talking is so crucial, in child's own talking is so crucial, in fact, we know that it is, then having a fact, we know that it is, then having a fact, we know that it is, then having a tablet in their hands is exactly the tablet in their hands is exactly the tablet in their hands is exactly the time when they're not talking themselves time when they're not talking themselves time when they're not talking themselves and exactly the time where the parents and exactly the time where the parents and exactly the time where the parents aren't talking to them and trying to aren't talking to them and trying to aren't talking to them and trying to engage them in a conversation. It's a engage them in a conversation. It's a engage them in a conversation. It's a it's a no talking zone when the kid is it's a no talking zone when the kid is it's a no talking zone when the kid is on the phone or the tablet or whatever. on the phone or the tablet or whatever. on the phone or the tablet or whatever. So, I have, as I mentioned, an So, I have, as I mentioned, an So, I have, as I mentioned, an 11-year-old son, and he loves video 11-year-old son, and he loves video 11-year-old son, and he loves video games, and uh he gets an hour or so a games, and uh he gets an hour or so a games, and uh he gets an hour or so a day on his iPad to play those video day on his iPad to play those video day on his iPad to play those video games, and he's doing it almost 100% of games, and he's doing it almost 100% of games, and he's doing it almost 100% of the time with his friends, talking to the time with his friends, talking to the time with his friends, talking to each other as they're playing the game. each other as they're playing the game. each other as they're playing the game. So, it's a kind of intensely social So, it's a kind of intensely social So, it's a kind of intensely social thing. thing. thing. >> Yes. And I think that is uh really a >> Yes. And I think that is uh really a >> Yes. And I think that is uh really a great way to blend talking and and great way to blend talking and and great way to blend talking and and friendship. You know, the the game friendship. You know, the the game friendship. You know, the the game Pokemon Go was also a a opportunity for Pokemon Go was also a a opportunity for Pokemon Go was also a a opportunity for developing kids going outside and developing kids going outside and developing kids going outside and talking together about their uh finding talking together about their uh finding talking together about their uh finding the Pokemons. And that's another So, I'm the Pokemons. And that's another So, I'm the Pokemons. And that's another So, I'm not against technology in the service of not against technology in the service of not against technology in the service of extra social interaction and talking. I extra social interaction and talking. I extra social interaction and talking. I think that's great. But for little kids think that's great. But for little kids think that's great. But for little kids particularly when their early talking particularly when their early talking particularly when their early talking really affects their school readiness really affects their school readiness really affects their school readiness and all sorts of other mental and all sorts of other mental and all sorts of other mental development. I think that we should development. I think that we should development. I think that we should leave behind uh the screen time or leave behind uh the screen time or leave behind uh the screen time or reduce it as much as possible because reduce it as much as possible because reduce it as much as possible because what we really want to be doing is what we really want to be doing is what we really want to be doing is having situations in which the kids are having situations in which the kids are having situations in which the kids are talking and if the the adult is on their talking and if the the adult is on their talking and if the the adult is on their phone, they're not probably engaging the phone, they're not probably engaging the phone, they're not probably engaging the kid in a conversation unless they're kid in a conversation unless they're kid in a conversation unless they're showing something on the phone to the showing something on the phone to the showing something on the phone to the kid and they're talking about it. So kid and they're talking about it. So kid and they're talking about it. So that would be an opportunity. But if the that would be an opportunity. But if the that would be an opportunity. But if the parent is on the phone and not paying parent is on the phone and not paying parent is on the phone and not paying attention to the kid, it's actually attention to the kid, it's actually attention to the kid, it's actually telling the kid that that phone is telling the kid that that phone is telling the kid that that phone is pretty important and that's what we pretty important and that's what we pretty important and that's what we ought to be doing with our time. And and ought to be doing with our time. And and ought to be doing with our time. And and I don't think that's the best message. I don't think that's the best message. I don't think that's the best message. Although, you know, I I'm really Although, you know, I I'm really Although, you know, I I'm really sensitive to people telling parents what sensitive to people telling parents what sensitive to people telling parents what they should be doing. It I have kids and they should be doing. It I have kids and they should be doing. It I have kids and everybody told me what I was doing wrong everybody told me what I was doing wrong everybody told me what I was doing wrong at all times. And uh it's it's hard. at all times. And uh it's it's hard. at all times. And uh it's it's hard. It's a tough job being a parent. So, I It's a tough job being a parent. So, I It's a tough job being a parent. So, I hope PE parents think about the value of hope PE parents think about the value of hope PE parents think about the value of their kids' own talking and try to their kids' own talking and try to their kids' own talking and try to incorporate that. incorporate that. incorporate that. >> Incorporate it. Do your best. Nobody's >> Incorporate it. Do your best. Nobody's >> Incorporate it. Do your best. Nobody's perfect. Um, perfect. Um, perfect. Um, >> yes. Yes. >> yes. Yes. >> yes. Yes. >> There there is speaking of speaking of >> There there is speaking of speaking of >> There there is speaking of speaking of on the non-judgmental tip, you have a on the non-judgmental tip, you have a on the non-judgmental tip, you have a whole chapter about how about why we whole chapter about how about why we whole chapter about how about why we shouldn't judge other people by the way shouldn't judge other people by the way shouldn't judge other people by the way they talk. Why shouldn't we do that? they talk. Why shouldn't we do that? they talk. Why shouldn't we do that? Because I do find myself doing it Because I do find myself doing it Because I do find myself doing it reflexively. reflexively. reflexively. >> Oh, yeah. We all do. And it's really >> Oh, yeah. We all do. And it's really >> Oh, yeah. We all do. And it's really part of how talking works. So we all part of how talking works. So we all part of how talking works. So we all were raised in a particular place in were raised in a particular place in were raised in a particular place in time among particular people. And the time among particular people. And the time among particular people. And the way our talking abilities develop is way our talking abilities develop is way our talking abilities develop is that we are really tuned into that we are really tuned into that we are really tuned into that local way of speaking and acting that local way of speaking and acting that local way of speaking and acting and culture. And that stuff that we got and culture. And that stuff that we got and culture. And that stuff that we got as kids really is in some way the right as kids really is in some way the right as kids really is in some way the right way to do it all. And people who then go way to do it all. And people who then go way to do it all. And people who then go out in the world and experience other out in the world and experience other out in the world and experience other ways of talking and other cultures and ways of talking and other cultures and ways of talking and other cultures and all of that can get quite high and all of that can get quite high and all of that can get quite high and mighty maybe more about the way people mighty maybe more about the way people mighty maybe more about the way people talk than culture sometimes about other talk than culture sometimes about other talk than culture sometimes about other people doing it wrong. It was also people doing it wrong. It was also people doing it wrong. It was also established when we went to school. You established when we went to school. You established when we went to school. You know, there's lots of things in school know, there's lots of things in school know, there's lots of things in school where little kids learn about other where little kids learn about other where little kids learn about other cultures and maybe they learn about cultures and maybe they learn about cultures and maybe they learn about Kwanza or they learn about the Native Kwanza or they learn about the Native Kwanza or they learn about the Native Americans in Thanksgiving or all sorts Americans in Thanksgiving or all sorts Americans in Thanksgiving or all sorts of other cultures. But that same of other cultures. But that same of other cultures. But that same elementary school class very often tells elementary school class very often tells elementary school class very often tells kids that there's a one right way to kids that there's a one right way to kids that there's a one right way to talk and you shouldn't say ain't and you talk and you shouldn't say ain't and you talk and you shouldn't say ain't and you shouldn't do all of these other things. shouldn't do all of these other things. shouldn't do all of these other things. And so people get very protective of the And so people get very protective of the And so people get very protective of the way they talk and really internalize way they talk and really internalize way they talk and really internalize even if they're not consciously aware of even if they're not consciously aware of even if they're not consciously aware of it that there's one right way. But it that there's one right way. But it that there's one right way. But there's not one right way. There's there's not one right way. There's there's not one right way. There's hundreds of dialects of just English hundreds of dialects of just English hundreds of dialects of just English alone and they are all as linguists have alone and they are all as linguists have alone and they are all as linguists have studied equally capable of conveying studied equally capable of conveying studied equally capable of conveying complex ideas. And so different accents complex ideas. And so different accents complex ideas. And so different accents and dialects and so forth are really and dialects and so forth are really and dialects and so forth are really social constructions social constructions social constructions like what we wear, how we cut our hair like what we wear, how we cut our hair like what we wear, how we cut our hair and our dress and so forth. and they and our dress and so forth. and they and our dress and so forth. and they don't have any inherent value except don't have any inherent value except don't have any inherent value except within a social hierarchy. All those within a social hierarchy. All those within a social hierarchy. All those other ways of talking are equally good. other ways of talking are equally good. other ways of talking are equally good. Another recommendation you make that I Another recommendation you make that I Another recommendation you make that I found surprising and interesting is that found surprising and interesting is that found surprising and interesting is that it's important to follow and and some it's important to follow and and some it's important to follow and and some older people can find these constantly older people can find these constantly older people can find these constantly shifting rules annoying, but you're shifting rules annoying, but you're shifting rules annoying, but you're saying that there's good reason to to saying that there's good reason to to saying that there's good reason to to follow all of the new pronoun or uh follow all of the new pronoun or uh follow all of the new pronoun or uh terminology usage rules that again seem terminology usage rules that again seem terminology usage rules that again seem to shift dayto-day to us oldsters. um to shift dayto-day to us oldsters. um to shift dayto-day to us oldsters. um and to not only because it's the polite and to not only because it's the polite and to not only because it's the polite thing to do, but also actually there may thing to do, but also actually there may thing to do, but also actually there may be some self-interested reasons for be some self-interested reasons for be some self-interested reasons for keeping up with the the uh the shifts in keeping up with the the uh the shifts in keeping up with the the uh the shifts in our on our language norms. our on our language norms. our on our language norms. >> Yeah, I think people if they can would >> Yeah, I think people if they can would >> Yeah, I think people if they can would do better to give up the idea that the do better to give up the idea that the do better to give up the idea that the way they do it is the correct way and way they do it is the correct way and way they do it is the correct way and and be more expansive and think that and be more expansive and think that and be more expansive and think that other ways might be okay too. Part of other ways might be okay too. Part of other ways might be okay too. Part of the reason is they really can't change the reason is they really can't change the reason is they really can't change things. So, it's just a source of things. So, it's just a source of things. So, it's just a source of frustration if young people are saying frustration if young people are saying frustration if young people are saying things that they don't know the words things that they don't know the words things that they don't know the words and so forth. And and it isn't helping and so forth. And and it isn't helping and so forth. And and it isn't helping to be angry about it. Um, you know, in to be angry about it. Um, you know, in to be angry about it. Um, you know, in the book I talk about how the grammar the book I talk about how the grammar the book I talk about how the grammar grammarians of the Sanskrit language grammarians of the Sanskrit language grammarians of the Sanskrit language thousands and thousands of years ago got thousands and thousands of years ago got thousands and thousands of years ago got really pissed that the young folks were really pissed that the young folks were really pissed that the young folks were screwing it up in new ways and they screwing it up in new ways and they screwing it up in new ways and they wrote down the grammar and it survived wrote down the grammar and it survived wrote down the grammar and it survived for thousands of years. But they didn't for thousands of years. But they didn't for thousands of years. But they didn't stop the change. The language changed stop the change. The language changed stop the change. The language changed because the young people started talking because the young people started talking because the young people started talking differently. And all the people who are differently. And all the people who are differently. And all the people who are mad now were themselves young people mad now were themselves young people mad now were themselves young people once who were changing their language. once who were changing their language. once who were changing their language. And uh so it's they might as well just And uh so it's they might as well just And uh so it's they might as well just get with it. And if somebody says no get with it. And if somebody says no get with it. And if somebody says no worries rather than you're welcome after worries rather than you're welcome after worries rather than you're welcome after you thank them, well that's just kind of you thank them, well that's just kind of you thank them, well that's just kind of a new ritualized way to do it. And you a new ritualized way to do it. And you a new ritualized way to do it. And you should just kind of go with the flow. should just kind of go with the flow. should just kind of go with the flow. Yeah. Well, I get make that making the Yeah. Well, I get make that making the Yeah. Well, I get make that making the shift can save you on on, you know, shift can save you on on, you know, shift can save you on on, you know, unnecessary annoyance, but I would unnecessary annoyance, but I would unnecessary annoyance, but I would imagine there's also some cognitive imagine there's also some cognitive imagine there's also some cognitive benefit to learning the, you know, benefit to learning the, you know, benefit to learning the, you know, staying up with the shifts in the staying up with the shifts in the staying up with the shifts in the language because language is always language because language is always language because language is always shifting and changing and evolving that shifting and changing and evolving that shifting and changing and evolving that the the brain benefits from staying the the brain benefits from staying the the brain benefits from staying sharp in that way. sharp in that way. sharp in that way. >> That's right. So learning new things and >> That's right. So learning new things and >> That's right. So learning new things and understanding the new fangled understanding the new fangled understanding the new fangled words that people are using is a great words that people are using is a great words that people are using is a great way to feel less left out and actually way to feel less left out and actually way to feel less left out and actually stimulate your brain. And also stimulate your brain. And also stimulate your brain. And also remembering that you too were somebody remembering that you too were somebody remembering that you too were somebody who was doing all that development who was doing all that development who was doing all that development really I think helps people get another really I think helps people get another really I think helps people get another perspective because it's not that the perspective because it's not that the perspective because it's not that the young people are doing something never young people are doing something never young people are doing something never before done before done before done >> because everybody has changed their >> because everybody has changed their >> because everybody has changed their language and that's natural that's how language and that's natural that's how language and that's natural that's how it works. Another benefit for me is, as it works. Another benefit for me is, as it works. Another benefit for me is, as many parents know, uh using young many parents know, uh using young many parents know, uh using young people's slang around young people is a people's slang around young people is a people's slang around young people is a great way to annoy young people, which I great way to annoy young people, which I great way to annoy young people, which I find endlessly satisfying. find endlessly satisfying. find endlessly satisfying. >> Yes. Yes. As a professor, I too. >> Yes. Yes. As a professor, I too. >> Yes. Yes. As a professor, I too. >> Oh, yeah. I'm sure. Yeah. You if you you >> Oh, yeah. I'm sure. Yeah. You if you you >> Oh, yeah. I'm sure. Yeah. You if you you use Gen Z slang in the classroom, they use Gen Z slang in the classroom, they use Gen Z slang in the classroom, they get they think, well, you can't say get they think, well, you can't say get they think, well, you can't say that. then I could call them out on that that. then I could call them out on that that. then I could call them out on that and we can have a conversation about how and we can have a conversation about how and we can have a conversation about how language changes and there's no language changes and there's no language changes and there's no proprietary uh only Gen Z people can say proprietary uh only Gen Z people can say proprietary uh only Gen Z people can say Jenz Gen Z slang. Finally, the speaking Jenz Gen Z slang. Finally, the speaking Jenz Gen Z slang. Finally, the speaking of something that changes all the time, of something that changes all the time, of something that changes all the time, technology. There's a whole chapter technology. There's a whole chapter technology. There's a whole chapter about uh the inter intersection of about uh the inter intersection of about uh the inter intersection of talking again talking broadly understood talking again talking broadly understood talking again talking broadly understood and technology. And one of the things and technology. And one of the things and technology. And one of the things you say is that that increasingly large you say is that that increasingly large you say is that that increasingly large companies and even governments are kind companies and even governments are kind companies and even governments are kind of analyzing the patterns in our digital of analyzing the patterns in our digital of analyzing the patterns in our digital speech in ways that could be super speech in ways that could be super speech in ways that could be super invasive and that we should know about. invasive and that we should know about. invasive and that we should know about. >> Yes. So, you know, you call the help >> Yes. So, you know, you call the help >> Yes. So, you know, you call the help line and you get this while you're on line and you get this while you're on line and you get this while you're on hill. It says, "This call may be require hill. It says, "This call may be require hill. It says, "This call may be require recorded for quality assurance recorded for quality assurance recorded for quality assurance purposes." That may or may not mean that purposes." That may or may not mean that purposes." That may or may not mean that they are recording the words you use, they are recording the words you use, they are recording the words you use, the tone of your voice, how likely you the tone of your voice, how likely you the tone of your voice, how likely you were to be satisfied with a $10 coupon were to be satisfied with a $10 coupon were to be satisfied with a $10 coupon for the fact that your uh product has for the fact that your uh product has for the fact that your uh product has now broken or uh any other behavior that now broken or uh any other behavior that now broken or uh any other behavior that you did. People are companies are you did. People are companies are you did. People are companies are analyzing talk to figure out what they analyzing talk to figure out what they analyzing talk to figure out what they can about you in the sense of can they can about you in the sense of can they can about you in the sense of can they predict your behavior? Are you the way predict your behavior? Are you the way predict your behavior? Are you the way you talk on Facebook? Does that make you you talk on Facebook? Does that make you you talk on Facebook? Does that make you likely to buy insurance be subject to an likely to buy insurance be subject to an likely to buy insurance be subject to an ad for new sugar meanies candy? Would ad for new sugar meanies candy? Would ad for new sugar meanies candy? Would you like to buy something? Would you be you like to buy something? Would you be you like to buy something? Would you be more likely to vote in some way? Would more likely to vote in some way? Would more likely to vote in some way? Would you be more likely to be persuaded on an you be more likely to be persuaded on an you be more likely to be persuaded on an argument to support a cause? And you argument to support a cause? And you argument to support a cause? And you don't we don't usually think that the don't we don't usually think that the don't we don't usually think that the way we post on Facebook or talk to the way we post on Facebook or talk to the way we post on Facebook or talk to the hopefully human in the line um the hopefully human in the line um the hopefully human in the line um the telephone line about getting help for telephone line about getting help for telephone line about getting help for your product has the capability to your product has the capability to your product has the capability to predict these things. But because predict these things. But because predict these things. But because talking is a conversion from our talking is a conversion from our talking is a conversion from our internal ideas into language, the internal ideas into language, the internal ideas into language, the patterns of language can be with patterns of language can be with patterns of language can be with sufficient computer help and expertise sufficient computer help and expertise sufficient computer help and expertise worked back to getting to understanding worked back to getting to understanding worked back to getting to understanding people's personalities, their attitudes, people's personalities, their attitudes, people's personalities, their attitudes, their likely to behave in certain ways. their likely to behave in certain ways. their likely to behave in certain ways. And people were trying to monetize that And people were trying to monetize that And people were trying to monetize that all the time. Companies are all the time. Companies are all the time. Companies are >> and it's very hard to know exactly what >> and it's very hard to know exactly what >> and it's very hard to know exactly what they're doing. I would imagine the they're doing. I would imagine the they're doing. I would imagine the government and I think you talk about government and I think you talk about government and I think you talk about this the governments can maybe read our, this the governments can maybe read our, this the governments can maybe read our, you know, go over our entire text and you know, go over our entire text and you know, go over our entire text and email and social media history and, you email and social media history and, you email and social media history and, you know, profile us in some way. know, profile us in some way. know, profile us in some way. >> That's right. I mean, law enforcement >> That's right. I mean, law enforcement >> That's right. I mean, law enforcement wants to know which people who are wants to know which people who are wants to know which people who are spewing hate speech are the ones who are spewing hate speech are the ones who are spewing hate speech are the ones who are likely to actually get up and and attack likely to actually get up and and attack likely to actually get up and and attack people and which ones are just, you people and which ones are just, you people and which ones are just, you know, posturing. And I don't think know, posturing. And I don't think know, posturing. And I don't think they've worked that out yet, but they're they've worked that out yet, but they're they've worked that out yet, but they're absolutely looking on posting on various absolutely looking on posting on various absolutely looking on posting on various social media about which sorts of kinds social media about which sorts of kinds social media about which sorts of kinds of tells their their language they're of tells their their language they're of tells their their language they're talking might be giving. And certainly talking might be giving. And certainly talking might be giving. And certainly this government, other governments, this government, other governments, this government, other governments, other countries could absolutely other countries could absolutely other countries could absolutely consider looking at the digital trail consider looking at the digital trail consider looking at the digital trail that we weave on social media and that we weave on social media and that we weave on social media and recordings and everything. Yeah. recordings and everything. Yeah. recordings and everything. Yeah. >> Yeah. I mean, I think it's probably I >> Yeah. I mean, I think it's probably I >> Yeah. I mean, I think it's probably I guess I'm reasonably comfortable with uh guess I'm reasonably comfortable with uh guess I'm reasonably comfortable with uh the government trying to identify people the government trying to identify people the government trying to identify people who are likely to commit terrorist acts, who are likely to commit terrorist acts, who are likely to commit terrorist acts, but the idea that an autocratic but the idea that an autocratic but the idea that an autocratic government in this country could use our government in this country could use our government in this country could use our could analyze our patterns of speech for could analyze our patterns of speech for could analyze our patterns of speech for thought crimes against the regime. That thought crimes against the regime. That thought crimes against the regime. That that that's troubling. that that's troubling. that that's troubling. >> Yes, it is. And I think it's very hard >> Yes, it is. And I think it's very hard >> Yes, it is. And I think it's very hard to know what's being analyzed or not to know what's being analyzed or not to know what's being analyzed or not analyzed right now but saved and could analyzed right now but saved and could analyzed right now but saved and could be in the future analyzed. And people be in the future analyzed. And people be in the future analyzed. And people speaking broadly are seem remarkably unw speaking broadly are seem remarkably unw speaking broadly are seem remarkably unw worried about privacy of their personal worried about privacy of their personal worried about privacy of their personal data. People worry about whether their data. People worry about whether their data. People worry about whether their credit card is going to get stolen. And credit card is going to get stolen. And credit card is going to get stolen. And I think that's that's not unreasonable, I think that's that's not unreasonable, I think that's that's not unreasonable, but I don't think they realize that but I don't think they realize that but I don't think they realize that their own posts on their own posts on their own posts on social media are a potential source of social media are a potential source of social media are a potential source of analysis of their internal states, which analysis of their internal states, which analysis of their internal states, which we all tend to think our own thoughts we all tend to think our own thoughts we all tend to think our own thoughts are private. But if our talk is are private. But if our talk is are private. But if our talk is reflecting with some decent probability reflecting with some decent probability reflecting with some decent probability what our internal states are, then those what our internal states are, then those what our internal states are, then those internal states are not in fact internal states are not in fact internal states are not in fact potentially private. Staying on the potentially private. Staying on the potentially private. Staying on the theme of technology, there's also a theme of technology, there's also a theme of technology, there's also a warning in the book about fake news, warning in the book about fake news, warning in the book about fake news, which I think many of us think of as a which I think many of us think of as a which I think many of us think of as a phenomenon phenomenon phenomenon to which other people, probably stupid to which other people, probably stupid to which other people, probably stupid people are susceptible, but actually if people are susceptible, but actually if people are susceptible, but actually if if you know if if it's delivered in a in if you know if if it's delivered in a in if you know if if it's delivered in a in a sophisticated enough way and it plays a sophisticated enough way and it plays a sophisticated enough way and it plays to our biases, we might fall for it too. to our biases, we might fall for it too. to our biases, we might fall for it too. >> That's right. The number of people many >> That's right. The number of people many >> That's right. The number of people many of these studies are done on college of these studies are done on college of these studies are done on college students who are not who are reasonably students who are not who are reasonably students who are not who are reasonably educate educated and believe themselves educate educated and believe themselves educate educated and believe themselves to be techsavvy and all of that. And to be techsavvy and all of that. And to be techsavvy and all of that. And those people are remarkably susceptible those people are remarkably susceptible those people are remarkably susceptible to fake news. And it's it's quite hard to fake news. And it's it's quite hard to fake news. And it's it's quite hard to get people to become more skeptical to get people to become more skeptical to get people to become more skeptical without becoming skeptical about all without becoming skeptical about all without becoming skeptical about all sorts of other things that aren't fake. sorts of other things that aren't fake. sorts of other things that aren't fake. So because I mean that's sort of by So because I mean that's sort of by So because I mean that's sort of by definition because the fake news becomes definition because the fake news becomes definition because the fake news becomes more and more like the real news. It more and more like the real news. It more and more like the real news. It becomes more and more hard to becomes more and more hard to becomes more and more hard to distinguish them. So the alternatives distinguish them. So the alternatives distinguish them. So the alternatives are to be skeptical of everything or to are to be skeptical of everything or to are to be skeptical of everything or to be more accepting of everything. And so be more accepting of everything. And so be more accepting of everything. And so it's a it's a very tricky situation at it's a it's a very tricky situation at it's a it's a very tricky situation at this point. this point. this point. >> Mary Ellen, I I always ask two questions >> Mary Ellen, I I always ask two questions >> Mary Ellen, I I always ask two questions at the end of interviews. The first is, at the end of interviews. The first is, at the end of interviews. The first is, is there something you were hoping to is there something you were hoping to is there something you were hoping to get to that we didn't get to? get to that we didn't get to? get to that we didn't get to? >> No, we got to the things I was hoping to >> No, we got to the things I was hoping to >> No, we got to the things I was hoping to get to. So thanks. get to. So thanks. get to. So thanks. >> Great. Uh second is can you just remind >> Great. Uh second is can you just remind >> Great. Uh second is can you just remind everybody of the name of your book? Any everybody of the name of your book? Any everybody of the name of your book? Any other books or any other resources you other books or any other resources you other books or any other resources you put out into the world that we should put out into the world that we should put out into the world that we should know about? know about? know about? >> Sure. My book is called More Than Words: >> Sure. My book is called More Than Words: >> Sure. My book is called More Than Words: How Talking Sharpens the Mind and Shapes How Talking Sharpens the Mind and Shapes How Talking Sharpens the Mind and Shapes Our World. Our World. Our World. And my website, if you want to look at And my website, if you want to look at And my website, if you want to look at that, is miellellendonald.com. >> Mary Ellen, thank you again. Great job. >> Mary Ellen, thank you again. Great job. Great to meet you. Great to meet you. Great to meet you. >> Thanks so much. It was great to be here.