The Real Reason You Can't Stop Thinking About Work After Hours | Guy Winch

[music] [music] Hey, welcome to the 10% Happier Podcast. Hey, welcome to the 10% Happier Podcast. Hey, welcome to the 10% Happier Podcast. I'm Dan Harris. Today we're talking I'm Dan Harris. Today we're talking I'm Dan Harris. Today we're talking about work stress, which if you believe about work stress, which if you believe about work stress, which if you believe the surveys, is worse than ever. My the surveys, is worse than ever. My the surveys, is worse than ever. My guest today has some very practical guest today has some very practical guest today has some very practical strategies for how not to bring your strategies for how not to bring your strategies for how not to bring your work home with you, how to set work home with you, how to set work home with you, how to set boundaries with your boss, even if you boundaries with your boss, even if you boundaries with your boss, even if you have a bad boss. Uh how to recover from have a bad boss. Uh how to recover from have a bad boss. Uh how to recover from a terrible day at the office, how to a terrible day at the office, how to a terrible day at the office, how to coach yourself through major challenges, coach yourself through major challenges, coach yourself through major challenges, how to deal with the Sunday scaries, and how to deal with the Sunday scaries, and how to deal with the Sunday scaries, and much more. Uh my guest is Guy Winch, who much more. Uh my guest is Guy Winch, who much more. Uh my guest is Guy Winch, who is a psychologist and author. His new is a psychologist and author. His new is a psychologist and author. His new book is called Mind Over Grind. He's uh book is called Mind Over Grind. He's uh book is called Mind Over Grind. He's uh written many books including Emotional written many books including Emotional written many books including Emotional First Aid and The Squeaky Wheel. But First Aid and The Squeaky Wheel. But First Aid and The Squeaky Wheel. But again, his uh new book is called Mind again, his uh new book is called Mind again, his uh new book is called Mind Over Grind. And uh I think you're going Over Grind. And uh I think you're going Over Grind. And uh I think you're going to like this interview. I liked it a to like this interview. I liked it a to like this interview. I liked it a lot. Guy Wench after this quick break. A lot. Guy Wench after this quick break. A lot. Guy Wench after this quick break. A few things before we hear from our few things before we hear from our few things before we hear from our sponsors. I get two questions all the sponsors. I get two questions all the sponsors. I get two questions all the time. One question is, "How do I time. One question is, "How do I time. One question is, "How do I maintain an abiding meditation habit? I maintain an abiding meditation habit? I maintain an abiding meditation habit? I keep falling off the wagon. That's what keep falling off the wagon. That's what keep falling off the wagon. That's what I hear from people all the Um, the I hear from people all the Um, the I hear from people all the Um, the second question I get all the time is, second question I get all the time is, second question I get all the time is, "I'm interested in Buddhism, but I don't "I'm interested in Buddhism, but I don't "I'm interested in Buddhism, but I don't know where to start." I have answers to know where to start." I have answers to know where to start." I have answers to both of those questions. The answers are both of those questions. The answers are both of those questions. The answers are slightly self- serving because I'm going slightly self- serving because I'm going slightly self- serving because I'm going to send you to my app, 10% with Dan to send you to my app, 10% with Dan to send you to my app, 10% with Dan Harris. But check this out. Starting Harris. But check this out. Starting Harris. But check this out. Starting this Sunday, July 12th at 400 PM this Sunday, July 12th at 400 PM this Sunday, July 12th at 400 PM Eastern, we're running a summer Sunday Eastern, we're running a summer Sunday Eastern, we're running a summer Sunday live series with the great meditation live series with the great meditation live series with the great meditation teacher Sharon Salsberg, who's going to teacher Sharon Salsberg, who's going to teacher Sharon Salsberg, who's going to do an eight-part series every Sunday for do an eight-part series every Sunday for do an eight-part series every Sunday for 8 weeks where she takes one piece of the 8 weeks where she takes one piece of the 8 weeks where she takes one piece of the Buddha's eight-fold path. If you're Buddha's eight-fold path. If you're Buddha's eight-fold path. If you're looking to get into Buddhism, a great looking to get into Buddhism, a great looking to get into Buddhism, a great place to start is one of the place to start is one of the place to start is one of the foundational Buddhist lists, and that is foundational Buddhist lists, and that is foundational Buddhist lists, and that is the eight-fold path. You can think of it the eight-fold path. You can think of it the eight-fold path. You can think of it as the Buddha's cookbook for a happy as the Buddha's cookbook for a happy as the Buddha's cookbook for a happy life. And Sharon is going to walk us life. And Sharon is going to walk us life. And Sharon is going to walk us through each part of the eight-fold through each part of the eight-fold through each part of the eight-fold path. And she's going to do so live and path. And she's going to do so live and path. And she's going to do so live and in community. So every Sunday at 400 in community. So every Sunday at 400 in community. So every Sunday at 400 p.m. Eastern, you can meditate with a p.m. Eastern, you can meditate with a p.m. Eastern, you can meditate with a bunch of other people. And the science bunch of other people. And the science bunch of other people. And the science shows that habit formation is often much shows that habit formation is often much shows that habit formation is often much more successful in the carpool lane. So more successful in the carpool lane. So more successful in the carpool lane. So you'll meditate as a group with the rest you'll meditate as a group with the rest you'll meditate as a group with the rest of us, myself included, and we will then of us, myself included, and we will then of us, myself included, and we will then listen to Sharon teach us a little bit listen to Sharon teach us a little bit listen to Sharon teach us a little bit and then we'll all get the opportunity and then we'll all get the opportunity and then we'll all get the opportunity to ask Sharon questions. So it really is to ask Sharon questions. So it really is to ask Sharon questions. So it really is an enormous opportunity to deepen your an enormous opportunity to deepen your an enormous opportunity to deepen your practice and to learn more about the practice and to learn more about the practice and to learn more about the dharma. Again, it starts this Sunday, dharma. Again, it starts this Sunday, dharma. Again, it starts this Sunday, July 12th at 4 p.m. Eastern. Go to danh July 12th at 4 p.m. Eastern. Go to danh July 12th at 4 p.m. Eastern. Go to danh harris.com and sign up for the 10% with harris.com and sign up for the 10% with harris.com and sign up for the 10% with Dan Harris app right now to start your Dan Harris app right now to start your Dan Harris app right now to start your free trial. And we will be right back free trial. And we will be right back free trial. And we will be right back after this. Your business identity is after this. Your business identity is after this. Your business identity is everything that makes your business everything that makes your business everything that makes your business legitimate and professional. [music] legitimate and professional. [music] legitimate and professional. [music] From phone records and compliance to From phone records and compliance to From phone records and compliance to your website, email and phone number. your website, email and phone number. your website, email and phone number. With Northwest Registered Agent, you With Northwest Registered Agent, you With Northwest Registered Agent, you don't just form a business. You start don't just form a business. You start don't just form a business. You start with a complete foundation built for with a complete foundation built for with a complete foundation built for privacy, credibility, and [music] privacy, credibility, and [music] privacy, credibility, and [music] growth. Northwest Registered agent has growth. Northwest Registered agent has growth. Northwest Registered agent has been helping small business owners and been helping small business owners and been helping small business owners and entrepreneurs launch and grow businesses entrepreneurs launch and grow businesses entrepreneurs launch and grow businesses for nearly 30 years. They're the largest for nearly 30 years. They're the largest for nearly 30 years. They're the largest registered agent and LLC service in the registered agent and LLC service in the registered agent and LLC service in the US with over 1500 corporate guides. US with over 1500 corporate guides. US with over 1500 corporate guides. Those [music] are real people who know Those [music] are real people who know Those [music] are real people who know your local laws and can help you and your local laws and can help you and your local laws and can help you and your business every step of the way. I your business every step of the way. I your business every step of the way. I think I [music] speak for many small think I [music] speak for many small think I [music] speak for many small business owners when I say that many of business owners when I say that many of business owners when I say that many of us get started because we've got a spark us get started because we've got a spark us get started because we've got a spark of [music] inspiration. But there are so of [music] inspiration. But there are so of [music] inspiration. But there are so many details like getting a business many details like getting a business many details like getting a business address, [music] your website, your address, [music] your website, your address, [music] your website, your phone number, operating agreements, LLC phone number, operating agreements, LLC phone number, operating agreements, LLC registration, all these little details registration, all these little details registration, all these little details that aren't the things [music] we signed that aren't the things [music] we signed that aren't the things [music] we signed up to do. So, it really helps to have a up to do. So, it really helps to have a up to do. So, it really helps to have a trusted guide [music] and ally as you go trusted guide [music] and ally as you go trusted guide [music] and ally as you go through this process. You can get a free through this process. You can get a free through this process. You can get a free account and then Northwest grows with account and then Northwest grows with account and then Northwest grows with you. You don't pay hundreds or thousands you. You don't pay hundreds or thousands you. You don't pay hundreds or thousands of dollars for what you can get from of dollars for what you can get from of dollars for what you can get from Northwest for [music] free. Visit Northwest for [music] free. Visit Northwest for [music] free. Visit northwestregisteredagent.com/happierfree and start using free resources to build and start using free resources to build something amazing. Get [music] more with something amazing. Get [music] more with something amazing. Get [music] more with northwestregistered agent at northwestregistered agent at northwestregistered agent at northwestregisteredagent.com/happierfree. >> Guy Winch, welcome to the show. >> Guy Winch, welcome to the show. >> Thank you for having me. >> Thank you for having me. >> Thank you for having me. >> All right, so let's get right into it. >> All right, so let's get right into it. >> All right, so let's get right into it. I'm curious, can we say with a degree of I'm curious, can we say with a degree of I'm curious, can we say with a degree of certainty that work stress is certainty that work stress is certainty that work stress is greater or worse uh now than it's ever greater or worse uh now than it's ever greater or worse uh now than it's ever been? been? been? >> If you're going to base it on surveys >> If you're going to base it on surveys >> If you're going to base it on surveys that measure work stress these days that measure work stress these days that measure work stress these days compared to what it was 5 10 15 20 years compared to what it was 5 10 15 20 years compared to what it was 5 10 15 20 years ago, yes, we can say so with absolute ago, yes, we can say so with absolute ago, yes, we can say so with absolute certainty. uh work stress and burnout certainty. uh work stress and burnout certainty. uh work stress and burnout have been peaking over the past 5 years have been peaking over the past 5 years have been peaking over the past 5 years and they're at all-time highs and you and they're at all-time highs and you and they're at all-time highs and you know and higher than they've been pre- know and higher than they've been pre- know and higher than they've been pre- pandemic and certainly before that. So pandemic and certainly before that. So pandemic and certainly before that. So yes absolutely we can say that with yes absolutely we can say that with yes absolutely we can say that with certainty. certainty. certainty. >> What's driving that? I think the >> What's driving that? I think the >> What's driving that? I think the workplace culture right now is a very workplace culture right now is a very workplace culture right now is a very difficult culture. But I think primarily difficult culture. But I think primarily difficult culture. But I think primarily what happened is that the pandemic did what happened is that the pandemic did what happened is that the pandemic did something very fundamental something very fundamental something very fundamental to our psychological to our psychological to our psychological barrier in our head. The separation we barrier in our head. The separation we barrier in our head. The separation we had between work and home. We were all had between work and home. We were all had between work and home. We were all in lockdowns for a certain amount of in lockdowns for a certain amount of in lockdowns for a certain amount of time. Some for weeks, months, some for time. Some for weeks, months, some for time. Some for weeks, months, some for longer. And home became our workplace. longer. And home became our workplace. longer. And home became our workplace. and not just in our own minds but in the and not just in our own minds but in the and not just in our own minds but in the minds of our employers. And so we really minds of our employers. And so we really minds of our employers. And so we really erased a boundary that was quite erased a boundary that was quite erased a boundary that was quite fundamental. Before the pandemic, people fundamental. Before the pandemic, people fundamental. Before the pandemic, people would be a little bit more hesitant to would be a little bit more hesitant to would be a little bit more hesitant to trouble an employee at home or to expect trouble an employee at home or to expect trouble an employee at home or to expect them to check their emails or certainly them to check their emails or certainly them to check their emails or certainly get on a video call. But after the get on a video call. But after the get on a video call. But after the pandemic, that was so normalized both in pandemic, that was so normalized both in pandemic, that was so normalized both in our heads and in the minds of our our heads and in the minds of our our heads and in the minds of our employers that that boundary got erased. employers that that boundary got erased. employers that that boundary got erased. And the stress that results is because And the stress that results is because And the stress that results is because work stress is no longer contained to work stress is no longer contained to work stress is no longer contained to the workplace. We are bringing it home. the workplace. We are bringing it home. the workplace. We are bringing it home. It's following us home. They are giving It's following us home. They are giving It's following us home. They are giving it to us at home. And that's why it's so it to us at home. And that's why it's so it to us at home. And that's why it's so high because any program you have to high because any program you have to high because any program you have to reduce work stress in the workplace is reduce work stress in the workplace is reduce work stress in the workplace is going to fail if it's not being going to fail if it's not being going to fail if it's not being addressed in all the other places where addressed in all the other places where addressed in all the other places where it happens. it happens. it happens. >> I have a million other questions. I just >> I have a million other questions. I just >> I have a million other questions. I just want to say one clarifying point and and want to say one clarifying point and and want to say one clarifying point and and I want to be clear that this is not me I want to be clear that this is not me I want to be clear that this is not me correcting you in any way. I know you correcting you in any way. I know you correcting you in any way. I know you agree with everything I'm about to say, agree with everything I'm about to say, agree with everything I'm about to say, but of course during the pandemic, there but of course during the pandemic, there but of course during the pandemic, there were a lot of people, including people were a lot of people, including people were a lot of people, including people who listen to this show, who uh had to who listen to this show, who uh had to who listen to this show, who uh had to go to work and thinking specifically of go to work and thinking specifically of go to work and thinking specifically of medical professionals, delivery drivers, medical professionals, delivery drivers, medical professionals, delivery drivers, and other frontline workers. Um, and for and other frontline workers. Um, and for and other frontline workers. Um, and for them uh there was a different kind of them uh there was a different kind of them uh there was a different kind of stress that the pandemic produced and stress that the pandemic produced and stress that the pandemic produced and and Guy and I see you, if that's you, and Guy and I see you, if that's you, and Guy and I see you, if that's you, may I just say that's absolutely may I just say that's absolutely may I just say that's absolutely correct. But even those people had kids correct. But even those people had kids correct. But even those people had kids at home who were studying on Zoom and at home who were studying on Zoom and at home who were studying on Zoom and who had partners whose workplace was in who had partners whose workplace was in who had partners whose workplace was in the home. So there was a and they knew the home. So there was a and they knew the home. So there was a and they knew it from all their friends as well. Just it from all their friends as well. Just it from all their friends as well. Just psychologically, psychologically, psychologically, you know, that barrier got erased even you know, that barrier got erased even you know, that barrier got erased even if it wasn't specific to you, even if if it wasn't specific to you, even if if it wasn't specific to you, even if you were an essential employee. Do you you were an essential employee. Do you you were an essential employee. Do you think, and I'm not sure if if this is think, and I'm not sure if if this is think, and I'm not sure if if this is showing up in the surveys yet, do you showing up in the surveys yet, do you showing up in the surveys yet, do you think that the encroachment of or even think that the encroachment of or even think that the encroachment of or even if it's not really encroaching on your if it's not really encroaching on your if it's not really encroaching on your work yet, you're just hearing about it work yet, you're just hearing about it work yet, you're just hearing about it all the time, the arrival, the impending all the time, the arrival, the impending all the time, the arrival, the impending arrival, however you want to describe arrival, however you want to describe arrival, however you want to describe it, of artificial intelligence is amping it, of artificial intelligence is amping it, of artificial intelligence is amping up people's work stress. up people's work stress. up people's work stress. >> It's amping up stress in general. The >> It's amping up stress in general. The >> It's amping up stress in general. The thing with artificial intelligence is thing with artificial intelligence is thing with artificial intelligence is it's it's creating massive uncertainty it's it's creating massive uncertainty it's it's creating massive uncertainty in the workspace in in the workplace in in the workspace in in the workplace in in the workspace in in the workplace in all kinds of industries. And so people all kinds of industries. And so people all kinds of industries. And so people don't know what's coming. They don't don't know what's coming. They don't don't know what's coming. They don't know when it's coming. Yes, it might know when it's coming. Yes, it might know when it's coming. Yes, it might impact my industry. It might be doing impact my industry. It might be doing impact my industry. It might be doing that already. When will it be doing it? that already. When will it be doing it? that already. When will it be doing it? And because of the negativity bias we And because of the negativity bias we And because of the negativity bias we have as people, we we evolved to be much have as people, we we evolved to be much have as people, we we evolved to be much more prone to spot threats and danger more prone to spot threats and danger more prone to spot threats and danger than we did to spot good things that had than we did to spot good things that had than we did to spot good things that had less of an evolutionary survival less of an evolutionary survival less of an evolutionary survival imperative. Then when we have imperative. Then when we have imperative. Then when we have uncertainty, we fill in those blanks uncertainty, we fill in those blanks uncertainty, we fill in those blanks with doom and gloom, with the negative. with doom and gloom, with the negative. with doom and gloom, with the negative. And so that's causing a rise in stress, And so that's causing a rise in stress, And so that's causing a rise in stress, in anxiety, in dread as well. in anxiety, in dread as well. in anxiety, in dread as well. >> Yeah. I mean, I I have to say I like I >> Yeah. I mean, I I have to say I like I >> Yeah. I mean, I I have to say I like I feel that acutely myself. It feels to me feel that acutely myself. It feels to me feel that acutely myself. It feels to me like we're in some extended version of like we're in some extended version of like we're in some extended version of the agony that I remember feeling in the the agony that I remember feeling in the the agony that I remember feeling in the days before the COVID lockdowns. Like I days before the COVID lockdowns. Like I days before the COVID lockdowns. Like I knew the was about to hit the fan. knew the was about to hit the fan. knew the was about to hit the fan. I just didn't know how bad it was going I just didn't know how bad it was going I just didn't know how bad it was going to be and how long it was going to last. to be and how long it was going to last. to be and how long it was going to last. And yeah, I I have this extended And yeah, I I have this extended And yeah, I I have this extended excruciating pain of feeling like we're excruciating pain of feeling like we're excruciating pain of feeling like we're in the before times and I have no idea in the before times and I have no idea in the before times and I have no idea what is coming next or when it's going what is coming next or when it's going what is coming next or when it's going to hit with full force. Look, what's so to hit with full force. Look, what's so to hit with full force. Look, what's so interesting is what what you're interesting is what what you're interesting is what what you're describing is dread. And as humans, we describing is dread. And as humans, we describing is dread. And as humans, we do very very poorly with dread. There do very very poorly with dread. There do very very poorly with dread. There are many experiments that show that when are many experiments that show that when are many experiments that show that when people are given the option to, let's people are given the option to, let's people are given the option to, let's say, receive a mild electrical shock in say, receive a mild electrical shock in say, receive a mild electrical shock in an hour or a much heavier one right now, an hour or a much heavier one right now, an hour or a much heavier one right now, they will opt for the heavier shock they will opt for the heavier shock they will opt for the heavier shock right now because that hour of dread is right now because that hour of dread is right now because that hour of dread is so intolerable for them. We would rather so intolerable for them. We would rather so intolerable for them. We would rather have the bad thing happen than actually have the bad thing happen than actually have the bad thing happen than actually sit in dread and wait. So dread's a very sit in dread and wait. So dread's a very sit in dread and wait. So dread's a very difficult feeling and that's what difficult feeling and that's what difficult feeling and that's what happened pre- pandemic. That is what's happened pre- pandemic. That is what's happened pre- pandemic. That is what's happening now in a lot of sectors. happening now in a lot of sectors. happening now in a lot of sectors. >> I think we've established quite robustly >> I think we've established quite robustly >> I think we've established quite robustly that people are stressed at work. What that people are stressed at work. What that people are stressed at work. What what are the health ramifications of all what are the health ramifications of all what are the health ramifications of all of this stress? of this stress? of this stress? >> Stress is a first of all it can lead to >> Stress is a first of all it can lead to >> Stress is a first of all it can lead to burnout and that has not just health burnout and that has not just health burnout and that has not just health ramifications but professional ramifications but professional ramifications but professional ramifications because your function you ramifications because your function you ramifications because your function you know drops significantly. Health-wise, know drops significantly. Health-wise, know drops significantly. Health-wise, acute and chronic stress really impairs acute and chronic stress really impairs acute and chronic stress really impairs our health. It impairs our our our health. It impairs our our our health. It impairs our our functioning of our immune system. It can functioning of our immune system. It can functioning of our immune system. It can predispose us to all kinds of diseases, predispose us to all kinds of diseases, predispose us to all kinds of diseases, to cardiovascular disease, all kinds of to cardiovascular disease, all kinds of to cardiovascular disease, all kinds of things like that. The risk rises, things like that. The risk rises, things like that. The risk rises, depression, cardiovascular disease, depression, cardiovascular disease, depression, cardiovascular disease, things like that. Our risk rises, things like that. Our risk rises, things like that. Our risk rises, especially when the stress is is serious especially when the stress is is serious especially when the stress is is serious and chronic, which a lot of people do and chronic, which a lot of people do and chronic, which a lot of people do report it uh to be. The risk of burnout report it uh to be. The risk of burnout report it uh to be. The risk of burnout is that we we reach this tipping point is that we we reach this tipping point is that we we reach this tipping point beyond which we literally kind of become beyond which we literally kind of become beyond which we literally kind of become a little bit numb, emotionally removed a little bit numb, emotionally removed a little bit numb, emotionally removed from what we're doing. Everything that from what we're doing. Everything that from what we're doing. Everything that used to interest us or even excite us used to interest us or even excite us used to interest us or even excite us about our work no longer does. We become about our work no longer does. We become about our work no longer does. We become cynical. We don't even know what we're cynical. We don't even know what we're cynical. We don't even know what we're doing it for. We're literally just doing it for. We're literally just doing it for. We're literally just putting down our head and pushing putting down our head and pushing putting down our head and pushing through, just grinding it out, just through, just grinding it out, just through, just grinding it out, just getting through the day in a kind of getting through the day in a kind of getting through the day in a kind of numb, depressed, kind of exhausted uh numb, depressed, kind of exhausted uh numb, depressed, kind of exhausted uh way. And burnout is a more severe thing. way. And burnout is a more severe thing. way. And burnout is a more severe thing. It takes longer to recover from burnout It takes longer to recover from burnout It takes longer to recover from burnout than just from regular exhaustion. than just from regular exhaustion. than just from regular exhaustion. Burnout is a psychological and mental Burnout is a psychological and mental Burnout is a psychological and mental exhaustion that runs quite quite deep. exhaustion that runs quite quite deep. exhaustion that runs quite quite deep. And that can be serious. And people And that can be serious. And people And that can be serious. And people don't realize that they're getting into don't realize that they're getting into don't realize that they're getting into the red zone with how they're working or the red zone with how they're working or the red zone with how they're working or with the stress that they're dealing with the stress that they're dealing with the stress that they're dealing with. And often they don't realize with. And often they don't realize with. And often they don't realize they're about to become burnt out until they're about to become burnt out until they're about to become burnt out until they do. they do. they do. >> How can I tell when I've crossed the >> How can I tell when I've crossed the >> How can I tell when I've crossed the line from being stressed about work to line from being stressed about work to line from being stressed about work to being truly burnt out? being truly burnt out? being truly burnt out? >> That happened to me earlier in my >> That happened to me earlier in my >> That happened to me earlier in my career. It's how I I start my my new career. It's how I I start my my new career. It's how I I start my my new book with that story. Um if I may just book with that story. Um if I may just book with that story. Um if I may just indulge you with it, it'll take, you indulge you with it, it'll take, you indulge you with it, it'll take, you know, it's a it's a quick story, but I know, it's a it's a quick story, but I know, it's a it's a quick story, but I was a psychologist. I opened a private was a psychologist. I opened a private was a psychologist. I opened a private practice. It was my first year. I had practice. It was my first year. I had practice. It was my first year. I had just finished my first year. I was just finished my first year. I was just finished my first year. I was living the dream. This is what I had living the dream. This is what I had living the dream. This is what I had wanted and planned for and studied for wanted and planned for and studied for wanted and planned for and studied for all the years. And I get home on a all the years. And I get home on a all the years. And I get home on a Friday night. And I get into the Friday night. And I get into the Friday night. And I get into the elevator. It was a warm summer night elevator. It was a warm summer night elevator. It was a warm summer night with a neighbor who was a doctor in an with a neighbor who was a doctor in an with a neighbor who was a doctor in an ER. And the elevator rises and then ER. And the elevator rises and then ER. And the elevator rises and then shutters and comes to a halt. And my shutters and comes to a halt. And my shutters and comes to a halt. And my neighbor who deals with emergencies uh neighbor who deals with emergencies uh neighbor who deals with emergencies uh for a living started banging all the for a living started banging all the for a living started banging all the buttons, pressing all the buttons, buttons, pressing all the buttons, buttons, pressing all the buttons, banging the door and saying, "This is my banging the door and saying, "This is my banging the door and saying, "This is my nightmare. This is my nightmare." Yeah, nightmare. This is my nightmare." Yeah, nightmare. This is my nightmare." Yeah, he was in a total panic. And what came he was in a total panic. And what came he was in a total panic. And what came out of my mouth was I looked at him and out of my mouth was I looked at him and out of my mouth was I looked at him and said, and this is my nightmare. And said, and this is my nightmare. And said, and this is my nightmare. And yeah, it was funny in my head, but yeah, it was funny in my head, but yeah, it was funny in my head, but horrific. And so, and he looked at me horrific. And so, and he looked at me horrific. And so, and he looked at me and I I'll never forget the way he and I I'll never forget the way he and I I'll never forget the way he looked at me. It was daggers. It was looked at me. It was daggers. It was looked at me. It was daggers. It was like, what the hell, you know? And I like, what the hell, you know? And I like, what the hell, you know? And I felt immediately so bad. Like, I wasn't felt immediately so bad. Like, I wasn't felt immediately so bad. Like, I wasn't panicked. I knew how to calm him down. I panicked. I knew how to calm him down. I panicked. I knew how to calm him down. I knew that this is what I trained to do knew that this is what I trained to do knew that this is what I trained to do essentially. help somebody in this essentially. help somebody in this essentially. help somebody in this situation. And that's what came out of situation. And that's what came out of situation. And that's what came out of my mouth. And when I got home, I my mouth. And when I got home, I my mouth. And when I got home, I literally was like, "What is going on literally was like, "What is going on literally was like, "What is going on with me?" [clears throat] And I realized with me?" [clears throat] And I realized with me?" [clears throat] And I realized I was totally burnt out that I had I was totally burnt out that I had I was totally burnt out that I had nothing left. I was just going through nothing left. I was just going through nothing left. I was just going through the motions. But by the end of the week, the motions. But by the end of the week, the motions. But by the end of the week, it wasn't just compassion fatigue. It it wasn't just compassion fatigue. It it wasn't just compassion fatigue. It was burnout. I didn't like what I was was burnout. I didn't like what I was was burnout. I didn't like what I was doing. I didn't enjoy what I was doing. doing. I didn't enjoy what I was doing. doing. I didn't enjoy what I was doing. I didn't know why I was doing it. I I didn't know why I was doing it. I I didn't know why I was doing it. I didn't know if I was doing a good job. I didn't know if I was doing a good job. I didn't know if I was doing a good job. I just felt tired as if I had been doing just felt tired as if I had been doing just felt tired as if I had been doing it for 40 years. And I'd been doing it it for 40 years. And I'd been doing it it for 40 years. And I'd been doing it for one. for one. for one. >> Yeah. And that's what alerted me that I >> Yeah. And that's what alerted me that I >> Yeah. And that's what alerted me that I was burnt out. was burnt out. was burnt out. >> So if I am trying to figure out if I'm >> So if I am trying to figure out if I'm >> So if I am trying to figure out if I'm burnt out, one way to to know is if I'm burnt out, one way to to know is if I'm burnt out, one way to to know is if I'm being unnecessarily unkind to people. being unnecessarily unkind to people. being unnecessarily unkind to people. >> Were you interested in certain aspects >> Were you interested in certain aspects >> Were you interested in certain aspects of your job previously? Are you of your job previously? Are you of your job previously? Are you interested in them now? Did you used to interested in them now? Did you used to interested in them now? Did you used to get excited when certain things happen? get excited when certain things happen? get excited when certain things happen? Are you getting excited now? Did you Are you getting excited now? Did you Are you getting excited now? Did you think you were doing something useful, think you were doing something useful, think you were doing something useful, meaningful, important? Do you feel that meaningful, important? Do you feel that meaningful, important? Do you feel that way now? Do you generally feel like bone way now? Do you generally feel like bone way now? Do you generally feel like bone tired all the time? Do you wake up in tired all the time? Do you wake up in tired all the time? Do you wake up in the morning to I have to get through the morning to I have to get through the morning to I have to get through another day? Is the is the mindset? Do another day? Is the is the mindset? Do another day? Is the is the mindset? Do you feel kind of numb about the things you feel kind of numb about the things you feel kind of numb about the things that are happening? Those are the that are happening? Those are the that are happening? Those are the questions you can ask in in any industry questions you can ask in in any industry questions you can ask in in any industry that you're in. that you're in. that you're in. >> I do want to say that I I have so much >> I do want to say that I I have so much >> I do want to say that I I have so much empathy for both of the people in that empathy for both of the people in that empathy for both of the people in that elevator. I'm a I have serious elevator. I'm a I have serious elevator. I'm a I have serious claustrophobia, so that is my nightmare, claustrophobia, so that is my nightmare, claustrophobia, so that is my nightmare, too. And I can imagine just what a too. And I can imagine just what a too. And I can imagine just what a toilet vortex you went into in the toilet vortex you went into in the toilet vortex you went into in the moment where you, you know, expressed moment where you, you know, expressed moment where you, you know, expressed frustration and then felt so horrible frustration and then felt so horrible frustration and then felt so horrible about yourself given that your job is about yourself given that your job is about yourself given that your job is allegedly to help people and you didn't allegedly to help people and you didn't allegedly to help people and you didn't do that in this moment. And I, yeah, I do that in this moment. And I, yeah, I do that in this moment. And I, yeah, I can just really feel can just really feel can just really feel >> I literally started looking for new >> I literally started looking for new >> I literally started looking for new apartments. I was like, I cannot see apartments. I was like, I cannot see apartments. I was like, I cannot see this person again. [laughter] this person again. [laughter] this person again. [laughter] >> It's a really helpful story. It's a >> It's a really helpful story. It's a >> It's a really helpful story. It's a harsh story, but I'm I'm glad you told harsh story, but I'm I'm glad you told harsh story, but I'm I'm glad you told it. It's really helpful to to help us it. It's really helpful to to help us it. It's really helpful to to help us diagnose whether we've crossed the line diagnose whether we've crossed the line diagnose whether we've crossed the line over into burnout. But let me just go over into burnout. But let me just go over into burnout. But let me just go back to stress for a second because I back to stress for a second because I back to stress for a second because I can imagine some people listening to can imagine some people listening to can imagine some people listening to this hard charging people and I I would this hard charging people and I I would this hard charging people and I I would put myself in this category that they put myself in this category that they put myself in this category that they might be thinking, well, don't I need might be thinking, well, don't I need might be thinking, well, don't I need some good stress? Like um if I if I some good stress? Like um if I if I some good stress? Like um if I if I don't have stress in my life, doesn't don't have stress in my life, doesn't don't have stress in my life, doesn't that say I'm not trying hard enough? that say I'm not trying hard enough? that say I'm not trying hard enough? >> Yes. Actually, uh here's the thing about >> Yes. Actually, uh here's the thing about >> Yes. Actually, uh here's the thing about stress. It gets a bad rap. It gets a bad stress. It gets a bad rap. It gets a bad stress. It gets a bad rap. It gets a bad rap because actually acute stress is rap because actually acute stress is rap because actually acute stress is useful for us. It's the chronic stress useful for us. It's the chronic stress useful for us. It's the chronic stress that's problematic. But beyond the acute that's problematic. But beyond the acute that's problematic. But beyond the acute and the chronic bell curve of stress and and the chronic bell curve of stress and and the chronic bell curve of stress and performance is such that when the stress performance is such that when the stress performance is such that when the stress is too low, we don't perform very well is too low, we don't perform very well is too low, we don't perform very well because the stakes are too low. We don't because the stakes are too low. We don't because the stakes are too low. We don't have skin in the game. It doesn't matter have skin in the game. It doesn't matter have skin in the game. It doesn't matter as much. So, we don't give it our full as much. So, we don't give it our full as much. So, we don't give it our full attention. As the stress starts to rise, attention. As the stress starts to rise, attention. As the stress starts to rise, so does our focus. So does our effort. so does our focus. So does our effort. so does our focus. So does our effort. So does our attention. And then you So does our attention. And then you So does our attention. And then you reach some point in which there's this reach some point in which there's this reach some point in which there's this goldilocks zone of the stress is just goldilocks zone of the stress is just goldilocks zone of the stress is just enough that you're doing your best work. enough that you're doing your best work. enough that you're doing your best work. But past the goldilock zone where the But past the goldilock zone where the But past the goldilock zone where the stress rises, continues to rise and now stress rises, continues to rise and now stress rises, continues to rise and now you're past the goldilock zone. That's you're past the goldilock zone. That's you're past the goldilock zone. That's when we start to feel overwhelmed. And when we start to feel overwhelmed. And when we start to feel overwhelmed. And that's when we start to mismanage the that's when we start to mismanage the that's when we start to mismanage the stress. We start to self-sabotage stress. We start to self-sabotage stress. We start to self-sabotage because of it in unconscious ways and because of it in unconscious ways and because of it in unconscious ways and our performance starts to decline our performance starts to decline our performance starts to decline precipitously. So yes, we need some precipitously. So yes, we need some precipitously. So yes, we need some stress. We need a measure of it. We need stress. We need a measure of it. We need stress. We need a measure of it. We need skin in the game. We need a certain skin in the game. We need a certain skin in the game. We need a certain level of tension, excitement, stakes, level of tension, excitement, stakes, level of tension, excitement, stakes, what have you. But beyond a certain what have you. But beyond a certain what have you. But beyond a certain point, and when that goes on for too point, and when that goes on for too point, and when that goes on for too long, it becomes damaging. long, it becomes damaging. long, it becomes damaging. >> I'm going to come back to the Goldilock >> I'm going to come back to the Goldilock >> I'm going to come back to the Goldilock zone for a second, but I you you piqu my zone for a second, but I you you piqu my zone for a second, but I you you piqu my interest. When you say we start to interest. When you say we start to interest. When you say we start to self-sabotage, what can that look like self-sabotage, what can that look like self-sabotage, what can that look like >> in the workplace when you have a lot of >> in the workplace when you have a lot of >> in the workplace when you have a lot of stress? Let's say you have an extremely stress? Let's say you have an extremely stress? Let's say you have an extremely stressful day planned for you. And stressful day planned for you. And stressful day planned for you. And self-sabotage means that you are not self-sabotage means that you are not self-sabotage means that you are not actually using the emotional actually using the emotional actually using the emotional intelligence you have to look at your intelligence you have to look at your intelligence you have to look at your day and figure out how do I manage this? day and figure out how do I manage this? day and figure out how do I manage this? This is going to be a very difficult This is going to be a very difficult This is going to be a very difficult 2-hour meeting. I should take a break 2-hour meeting. I should take a break 2-hour meeting. I should take a break after that cuz then I have a very after that cuz then I have a very after that cuz then I have a very important meeting with my boss. I don't important meeting with my boss. I don't important meeting with my boss. I don't want to go into that meeting charged and want to go into that meeting charged and want to go into that meeting charged and annoyed because I just had 2 hours with annoyed because I just had 2 hours with annoyed because I just had 2 hours with a very antagonistic team. So, let me a very antagonistic team. So, let me a very antagonistic team. So, let me just think about that more clearly. Let just think about that more clearly. Let just think about that more clearly. Let me take 5 minutes to walk around the me take 5 minutes to walk around the me take 5 minutes to walk around the block and refresh myself because I'm block and refresh myself because I'm block and refresh myself because I'm already got starting to get worn out. we already got starting to get worn out. we already got starting to get worn out. we start to make mistakes more and we don't start to make mistakes more and we don't start to make mistakes more and we don't catch them because we're just trying to catch them because we're just trying to catch them because we're just trying to power through rather than be wise about power through rather than be wise about power through rather than be wise about how we're managing ourselves and how how we're managing ourselves and how how we're managing ourselves and how we're imaging managing ourselves during we're imaging managing ourselves during we're imaging managing ourselves during the day. So it it's our emotional the day. So it it's our emotional the day. So it it's our emotional intelligence that gets compromised in intelligence that gets compromised in intelligence that gets compromised in all kinds of ways. Our judgment gets all kinds of ways. Our judgment gets all kinds of ways. Our judgment gets compromised in all kinds of ways and compromised in all kinds of ways and compromised in all kinds of ways and those things are can actually make us those things are can actually make us those things are can actually make us completely trip up and set up all kinds completely trip up and set up all kinds completely trip up and set up all kinds of self-defeating cycles that then get of self-defeating cycles that then get of self-defeating cycles that then get worse and worse. I think you have worse and worse. I think you have worse and worse. I think you have everybody's full attention on the the everybody's full attention on the the everybody's full attention on the the problem uh the scope of the problem, the problem uh the scope of the problem, the problem uh the scope of the problem, the ramifications of the problem. So, let me ramifications of the problem. So, let me ramifications of the problem. So, let me get back to the Goldilocks zone because get back to the Goldilocks zone because get back to the Goldilocks zone because uh that I think starts to steer us into uh that I think starts to steer us into uh that I think starts to steer us into um the land of potential solutions. What um the land of potential solutions. What um the land of potential solutions. What can we do to stay in the Goldilocks zone can we do to stay in the Goldilocks zone can we do to stay in the Goldilocks zone of of enough stress to keep us focused of of enough stress to keep us focused of of enough stress to keep us focused on our toes, engaged, but not so much on our toes, engaged, but not so much on our toes, engaged, but not so much stress that we're self-sabotaging or stress that we're self-sabotaging or stress that we're self-sabotaging or burning out? burning out? burning out? >> Well, we have to do two things. Both of >> Well, we have to do two things. Both of >> Well, we have to do two things. Both of them are extremely familiar to you. We them are extremely familiar to you. We them are extremely familiar to you. We have to be mindful have to be mindful have to be mindful about how we're doing. We have to about how we're doing. We have to about how we're doing. We have to self-reflect. self-reflect. self-reflect. In other words, we have to be able to In other words, we have to be able to In other words, we have to be able to take our own temperature and pay take our own temperature and pay take our own temperature and pay attention to how we're doing, to how attention to how we're doing, to how attention to how we're doing, to how we're feeling, to how we're functioning, we're feeling, to how we're functioning, we're feeling, to how we're functioning, and so we can tell when we're starting and so we can tell when we're starting and so we can tell when we're starting to veer off course or when we're to veer off course or when we're to veer off course or when we're starting to decline in terms of our starting to decline in terms of our starting to decline in terms of our performance. And that requires paying performance. And that requires paying performance. And that requires paying attention to ourselves. Noting that this attention to ourselves. Noting that this attention to ourselves. Noting that this task that I did easily last week is task that I did easily last week is task that I did easily last week is pissing me off and annoying me and I've pissing me off and annoying me and I've pissing me off and annoying me and I've already made five mistakes. That's already made five mistakes. That's already made five mistakes. That's something about your stress level is something about your stress level is something about your stress level is causing that in that in that moment. So causing that in that in that moment. So causing that in that in that moment. So we have to be able to do those things. we have to be able to do those things. we have to be able to do those things. And then the good news about the And then the good news about the And then the good news about the Goldilock zone is the minute we start to Goldilock zone is the minute we start to Goldilock zone is the minute we start to exceed it, it doesn't necessarily exceed it, it doesn't necessarily exceed it, it doesn't necessarily require a huge correction. It can just require a huge correction. It can just require a huge correction. It can just be they're like, "I really need to take be they're like, "I really need to take be they're like, "I really need to take this weekend off because I'm starting to this weekend off because I'm starting to this weekend off because I'm starting to get past my accumulative kind of stress get past my accumulative kind of stress get past my accumulative kind of stress levels. Let me take the weekend off. Let levels. Let me take the weekend off. Let levels. Let me take the weekend off. Let me actually sleep in a little bit me actually sleep in a little bit me actually sleep in a little bit tomorrow. Let me pass on this thing that tomorrow. Let me pass on this thing that tomorrow. Let me pass on this thing that I would love to do, but it's just going I would love to do, but it's just going I would love to do, but it's just going to add a little bit too much." to to add a little bit too much." to to add a little bit too much." to monitor yourself and to be able to kind monitor yourself and to be able to kind monitor yourself and to be able to kind of, you know, when where you have the of, you know, when where you have the of, you know, when where you have the ability to control how much you take on, ability to control how much you take on, ability to control how much you take on, which not everyone does, but most people which not everyone does, but most people which not everyone does, but most people do have the ability to control how they do have the ability to control how they do have the ability to control how they recover, rest, recharge after work, in recover, rest, recharge after work, in recover, rest, recharge after work, in the weekends, in the breaks they have the weekends, in the breaks they have the weekends, in the breaks they have during the day. So, you have to start during the day. So, you have to start during the day. So, you have to start monitoring those and paying more monitoring those and paying more monitoring those and paying more attention to those. It's this balance. attention to those. It's this balance. attention to those. It's this balance. The stress is balanced out by recovery, The stress is balanced out by recovery, The stress is balanced out by recovery, by resting, by recharging, by by resting, by recharging, by by resting, by recharging, by revitalizing. If you can't control one, revitalizing. If you can't control one, revitalizing. If you can't control one, you need to pay more attention to the you need to pay more attention to the you need to pay more attention to the other. other. other. >> This is always an interesting juncture >> This is always an interesting juncture >> This is always an interesting juncture for me because on the one hand, I find for me because on the one hand, I find for me because on the one hand, I find it personally very liberating as a a it personally very liberating as a a it personally very liberating as a a typical hard charging super ambitious typical hard charging super ambitious typical hard charging super ambitious westerner uh to hear that, you know, you westerner uh to hear that, you know, you westerner uh to hear that, you know, you can use some basic self-awareness to can use some basic self-awareness to can use some basic self-awareness to titrate to to take responsibility and titrate to to take responsibility and titrate to to take responsibility and rest when you need it and that in fact rest when you need it and that in fact rest when you need it and that in fact rest is part of high performance. It's rest is part of high performance. It's rest is part of high performance. It's not a a a reward you get at the end. not a a a reward you get at the end. not a a a reward you get at the end. It's actually it's it's a key part of It's actually it's it's a key part of It's actually it's it's a key part of the process. I love all of that. And I the process. I love all of that. And I the process. I love all of that. And I can imagine for some people it's hard to can imagine for some people it's hard to can imagine for some people it's hard to swallow the personal responsibility swallow the personal responsibility swallow the personal responsibility piece of this, the personal agency piece piece of this, the personal agency piece piece of this, the personal agency piece of this because, you know, some of this because, you know, some of this because, you know, some listeners and and viewers may feel like listeners and and viewers may feel like listeners and and viewers may feel like I'm in I'm in a toxic workspace. I've I'm in I'm in a toxic workspace. I've I'm in I'm in a toxic workspace. I've got a boss who's completely got a boss who's completely got a boss who's completely unreasonable. They they expect me to be unreasonable. They they expect me to be unreasonable. They they expect me to be on call 7 days a week, uh, 24 hours a on call 7 days a week, uh, 24 hours a on call 7 days a week, uh, 24 hours a day. They're they're liable to give me day. They're they're liable to give me day. They're they're liable to give me an assignment late Friday that is due an assignment late Friday that is due an assignment late Friday that is due first thing Monday. So I even if I know first thing Monday. So I even if I know first thing Monday. So I even if I know I need to rest, I can't rest in this I need to rest, I can't rest in this I need to rest, I can't rest in this environment. So what do you say to those environment. So what do you say to those environment. So what do you say to those folks? Guy, folks? Guy, folks? Guy, >> first of all, I say it's absolutely >> first of all, I say it's absolutely >> first of all, I say it's absolutely essential that you rest. You will do a essential that you rest. You will do a essential that you rest. You will do a better job if you don't keep just better job if you don't keep just better job if you don't keep just grinding it out. You'll do a better job grinding it out. You'll do a better job grinding it out. You'll do a better job if you don't just continue to punish if you don't just continue to punish if you don't just continue to punish yourself. And you can set more limits yourself. And you can set more limits yourself. And you can set more limits than you realize. If your boss is giving than you realize. If your boss is giving than you realize. If your boss is giving you an assignment that they, you know, you an assignment that they, you know, you an assignment that they, you know, want you to do on on on Friday evening, want you to do on on on Friday evening, want you to do on on on Friday evening, right? and that you know if you're I right? and that you know if you're I right? and that you know if you're I know people who check their phone every know people who check their phone every know people who check their phone every five minutes maybe my boss is trying to five minutes maybe my boss is trying to five minutes maybe my boss is trying to get in touch with me now if there's a get in touch with me now if there's a get in touch with me now if there's a live issue going on a project with a live issue going on a project with a live issue going on a project with a deadline something urgent that's unusual deadline something urgent that's unusual deadline something urgent that's unusual that's one thing but this is normative that's one thing but this is normative that's one thing but this is normative evenings afternoons every 2 minutes evenings afternoons every 2 minutes evenings afternoons every 2 minutes checking emails from work if you're checking emails from work if you're checking emails from work if you're thinking about work when you're at home thinking about work when you're at home thinking about work when you're at home you're at work if you're thinking about you're at work if you're thinking about you're at work if you're thinking about work every 5 minutes on the weekend work every 5 minutes on the weekend work every 5 minutes on the weekend you're working you're not getting a rest you're working you're not getting a rest you're working you're not getting a rest and they say to me well my boss will say and they say to me well my boss will say and they say to me well my boss will say to me why did it take you an hour to to me why did it take you an hour to to me why did it take you an hour to answer' And I I I truly feel befuddled answer' And I I I truly feel befuddled answer' And I I I truly feel befuddled by that question of like what if you by that question of like what if you by that question of like what if you were swimming, you didn't take your were swimming, you didn't take your were swimming, you didn't take your phone with you? What if you were getting phone with you? What if you were getting phone with you? What if you were getting a massage? What if you were having sex a massage? What if you were having sex a massage? What if you were having sex with your partner? In other words, you with your partner? In other words, you with your partner? In other words, you are allowed to have a life. And if your are allowed to have a life. And if your are allowed to have a life. And if your boss says, "Why did it take you an boss says, "Why did it take you an boss says, "Why did it take you an hour?" The response is, "Because I was hour?" The response is, "Because I was hour?" The response is, "Because I was busy. busy. busy. I wasn't free." I wasn't free." I wasn't free." And if they say, "What were you doing?" And if they say, "What were you doing?" And if they say, "What were you doing?" That's an intrusive, inappropriate That's an intrusive, inappropriate That's an intrusive, inappropriate question. and you can just give them a question. and you can just give them a question. and you can just give them a we a wink and say we can talk about that we a wink and say we can talk about that we a wink and say we can talk about that later if you insist to imply that it was later if you insist to imply that it was later if you insist to imply that it was something very personal that they something very personal that they something very personal that they shouldn't be asking you about. And so shouldn't be asking you about. And so shouldn't be asking you about. And so there there is more space we can take there there is more space we can take there there is more space we can take than we allow ourselves to take. We fall than we allow ourselves to take. We fall than we allow ourselves to take. We fall into the trap that to be good soldiers. into the trap that to be good soldiers. into the trap that to be good soldiers. We have to be ready at any given moment. We have to be ready at any given moment. We have to be ready at any given moment. But soldiers are never on watch 247 But soldiers are never on watch 247 But soldiers are never on watch 247 without a break. they're only on the without a break. they're only on the without a break. they're only on the watchtowwer for certain shifts because watchtowwer for certain shifts because watchtowwer for certain shifts because nobody could you know maintain that nobody could you know maintain that nobody could you know maintain that level of like attention and preparedness level of like attention and preparedness level of like attention and preparedness and alertness for you know whatever so and alertness for you know whatever so and alertness for you know whatever so so we really have to reclaim some of so we really have to reclaim some of so we really have to reclaim some of this myth that in my work I do not have this myth that in my work I do not have this myth that in my work I do not have a minute in my work I do not get a a minute in my work I do not get a a minute in my work I do not get a second people say I don't have two second people say I don't have two second people say I don't have two minutes during the day I'm like do not minutes during the day I'm like do not minutes during the day I'm like do not go to the toilet go to the toilet go to the toilet uh there's somebody measuring how long uh there's somebody measuring how long uh there's somebody measuring how long you take in there that's absolutely you take in there that's absolutely you take in there that's absolutely false you know and there's a lot we can false you know and there's a lot we can false you know and there's a lot we can do in those two if we put our mind to do in those two if we put our mind to do in those two if we put our mind to it. So, we first have to like disavow it. So, we first have to like disavow it. So, we first have to like disavow ourselves of this, you know, this ourselves of this, you know, this ourselves of this, you know, this fictional idea of 24/7 grind. You know, fictional idea of 24/7 grind. You know, fictional idea of 24/7 grind. You know, it's absolutely it's not true. It it's absolutely it's not true. It it's absolutely it's not true. It shouldn't be true. And if you're doing shouldn't be true. And if you're doing shouldn't be true. And if you're doing that, then you're falling into a trap that, then you're falling into a trap that, then you're falling into a trap set by the culture that's going to set by the culture that's going to set by the culture that's going to actually really cost you. actually really cost you. actually really cost you. >> I largely agree with you, guy. Uh I'm >> I largely agree with you, guy. Uh I'm >> I largely agree with you, guy. Uh I'm going to push back uh just gently just going to push back uh just gently just going to push back uh just gently just just to channel a skeptical listener, just to channel a skeptical listener, just to channel a skeptical listener, but just just to say I I do largely but just just to say I I do largely but just just to say I I do largely agree with you. I think there's there agree with you. I think there's there agree with you. I think there's there are these interstitial moments during are these interstitial moments during are these interstitial moments during the day that we really can take the day that we really can take the day that we really can take advantage of. I think some of this story advantage of. I think some of this story advantage of. I think some of this story we tell ourselves that we need to be we tell ourselves that we need to be we tell ourselves that we need to be always on is in fact falsifiable. Um always on is in fact falsifiable. Um always on is in fact falsifiable. Um having said that, I can imagine people having said that, I can imagine people having said that, I can imagine people listening and saying, "Well, I work at a listening and saying, "Well, I work at a listening and saying, "Well, I work at a place where actually they're hacked into place where actually they're hacked into place where actually they're hacked into my my employer is, my my employer is, my my employer is, you know, counting my keystrokes and you know, counting my keystrokes and you know, counting my keystrokes and seeing what I'm doing on my laptop all seeing what I'm doing on my laptop all seeing what I'm doing on my laptop all day long. And so they are essentially day long. And so they are essentially day long. And so they are essentially monitoring everything I do all day. A monitoring everything I do all day. A monitoring everything I do all day. A and B I can imagine people listening and and B I can imagine people listening and and B I can imagine people listening and say saying, "Well, Guy told me how to say saying, "Well, Guy told me how to say saying, "Well, Guy told me how to talk back to my boss about the fact that talk back to my boss about the fact that talk back to my boss about the fact that I'm in the pool on the weekend or I'm in the pool on the weekend or I'm in the pool on the weekend or whatever." Um, but yeah, I I could get whatever." Um, but yeah, I I could get whatever." Um, but yeah, I I could get fired for that if I did what guy was fired for that if I did what guy was fired for that if I did what guy was recommending, recommending, recommending, >> right? Actually, I'm not saying talk >> right? Actually, I'm not saying talk >> right? Actually, I'm not saying talk back to your boss because talk back to back to your boss because talk back to back to your boss because talk back to your boss is none of your I'm not saying your boss is none of your I'm not saying your boss is none of your I'm not saying say none of your business. Say like, say none of your business. Say like, say none of your business. Say like, "I'm so sorry. I was busy. "I'm so sorry. I was busy. "I'm so sorry. I was busy. >> I was indisposed." Right? you know, you >> I was indisposed." Right? you know, you >> I was indisposed." Right? you know, you just, you know, like less the let the just, you know, like less the let the just, you know, like less the let the boss think whatever they want. I'm boss think whatever they want. I'm boss think whatever they want. I'm saying do it politely. Apologize for the saying do it politely. Apologize for the saying do it politely. Apologize for the terrible thing that you did by not being terrible thing that you did by not being terrible thing that you did by not being able to respond uh for an hour. If play able to respond uh for an hour. If play able to respond uh for an hour. If play the game if you must, by all means, I'm the game if you must, by all means, I'm the game if you must, by all means, I'm not saying like push back and say that's not saying like push back and say that's not saying like push back and say that's a stupid request. Um but but the other a stupid request. Um but but the other a stupid request. Um but but the other thing is yes, if they're looking at your thing is yes, if they're looking at your thing is yes, if they're looking at your keystrokes, etc. But if the expectation keystrokes, etc. But if the expectation keystrokes, etc. But if the expectation in that job is that your keyboard should in that job is that your keyboard should in that job is that your keyboard should be functional 16 hours a day, then you be functional 16 hours a day, then you be functional 16 hours a day, then you really need to start thinking about really need to start thinking about really need to start thinking about what's the price that you are willing to what's the price that you are willing to what's the price that you are willing to pay for that job and for that level of pay for that job and for that level of pay for that job and for that level of scrutiny and for that level of scrutiny and for that level of scrutiny and for that level of exhaustion and burnout that will happen. exhaustion and burnout that will happen. exhaustion and burnout that will happen. What are you doing it all for? People What are you doing it all for? People What are you doing it all for? People lose the forest here because they're lose the forest here because they're lose the forest here because they're like, "Well, I'm doing it so so I can like, "Well, I'm doing it so so I can like, "Well, I'm doing it so so I can like, you know, provide a good life to like, you know, provide a good life to like, you know, provide a good life to you, your family, to my family." And I'm you, your family, to my family." And I'm you, your family, to my family." And I'm like, family doesn't know you cuz you're like, family doesn't know you cuz you're like, family doesn't know you cuz you're never around. So, I'm not sure what good never around. So, I'm not sure what good never around. So, I'm not sure what good life you're providing your kids if they life you're providing your kids if they life you're providing your kids if they don't get any time with you. If this is don't get any time with you. If this is don't get any time with you. If this is for some kind of fictional point in the for some kind of fictional point in the for some kind of fictional point in the future where you retire or whatever, future where you retire or whatever, future where you retire or whatever, let's hope you get there. You know, the let's hope you get there. You know, the let's hope you get there. You know, the World Health uh organization says that World Health uh organization says that World Health uh organization says that around 750,000 around 750,000 around 750,000 employees die a year of overwork. You employees die a year of overwork. You employees die a year of overwork. You know, overworking will literally shorten know, overworking will literally shorten know, overworking will literally shorten your life and it will make you ill and your life and it will make you ill and your life and it will make you ill and and and so not everyone. It's a and and so not everyone. It's a and and so not everyone. It's a crapshoot. You can take those chances if crapshoot. You can take those chances if crapshoot. You can take those chances if you want, but ask yourself, this is a you want, but ask yourself, this is a you want, but ask yourself, this is a decision you're making about what how decision you're making about what how decision you're making about what how worthwhile this is for me. And the other worthwhile this is for me. And the other worthwhile this is for me. And the other thing people do is they say, but I just thing people do is they say, but I just thing people do is they say, but I just need to do it for a couple of years. I'm need to do it for a couple of years. I'm need to do it for a couple of years. I'm a founder of a company. We all, you a founder of a company. We all, you a founder of a company. We all, you know, it's it's a startup. We just every know, it's it's a startup. We just every know, it's it's a startup. We just every startup has to work that way for two or startup has to work that way for two or startup has to work that way for two or three years, etc. You know, like, and three years, etc. You know, like, and three years, etc. You know, like, and they say, oh, you know, people sleep on they say, oh, you know, people sleep on they say, oh, you know, people sleep on the floor of their factory. And I'm the floor of their factory. And I'm the floor of their factory. And I'm like, you know, founders talk about like, you know, founders talk about like, you know, founders talk about that. Like the founders who talk about that. Like the founders who talk about that. Like the founders who talk about sleeping on the floor of their factory sleeping on the floor of their factory sleeping on the floor of their factory have chefs and assistants and drivers have chefs and assistants and drivers have chefs and assistants and drivers and massurs. You do not. It's not a good and massurs. You do not. It's not a good and massurs. You do not. It's not a good equivalency. You asked a a really equivalency. You asked a a really equivalency. You asked a a really profound question there about why are profound question there about why are profound question there about why are you doing this? And I'm I'm just you doing this? And I'm I'm just you doing this? And I'm I'm just thinking like about myself in this thinking like about myself in this thinking like about myself in this regard. Why, you know, I spent so much regard. Why, you know, I spent so much regard. Why, you know, I spent so much of my career just pushing pushing of my career just pushing pushing of my career just pushing pushing pushing as a as a brief illustration of pushing as a as a brief illustration of pushing as a as a brief illustration of the environment in which I came up as a the environment in which I came up as a the environment in which I came up as a network news correspondent and anchor in network news correspondent and anchor in network news correspondent and anchor in 2004. So this is dating me and myself 2004. So this is dating me and myself 2004. So this is dating me and myself here, but um I was covering the here, but um I was covering the here, but um I was covering the Democratic primaries in in the in the US Democratic primaries in in the in the US Democratic primaries in in the in the US presidential elections in 2004. And on presidential elections in 2004. And on presidential elections in 2004. And on the night that Howard Dean, who was the the night that Howard Dean, who was the the night that Howard Dean, who was the upand cominging Democratic upand cominging Democratic upand cominging Democratic >> Yeih when he yhad >> Yeih when he yhad >> Yeih when he yhad >> Yeah. Yeah. He screamed. Howard Dean was >> Yeah. Yeah. He screamed. Howard Dean was >> Yeah. Yeah. He screamed. Howard Dean was on his way to getting the Democratic on his way to getting the Democratic on his way to getting the Democratic nomination that John Kerry ultimately nomination that John Kerry ultimately nomination that John Kerry ultimately got, but he had this moment where he got, but he had this moment where he got, but he had this moment where he screamed on camera and he came off as screamed on camera and he came off as screamed on camera and he came off as unhinged and weird. Anyway, my bosses unhinged and weird. Anyway, my bosses unhinged and weird. Anyway, my bosses made me stand outside in a freezing rain made me stand outside in a freezing rain made me stand outside in a freezing rain that night to do a live shot. And uh I that night to do a live shot. And uh I that night to do a live shot. And uh I got sick, like deathly ill, and had to got sick, like deathly ill, and had to got sick, like deathly ill, and had to go to the hospital. And uh and I had to go to the hospital. And uh and I had to go to the hospital. And uh and I had to stay in Iowa, where this happened, uh stay in Iowa, where this happened, uh stay in Iowa, where this happened, uh for a week because I was that sick. When for a week because I was that sick. When for a week because I was that sick. When I got back, one of my bosses said to me, I got back, one of my bosses said to me, I got back, one of my bosses said to me, "That was not a good look for you." So "That was not a good look for you." So "That was not a good look for you." So that that that was the environment in that that that was the environment in that that that was the environment in which I was raised, this kind of which I was raised, this kind of which I was raised, this kind of militaristic boomer culture. I'm I'm not militaristic boomer culture. I'm I'm not militaristic boomer culture. I'm I'm not a boomer, but um those were my bosses. a boomer, but um those were my bosses. a boomer, but um those were my bosses. Part of it is uh I was pushing myself Part of it is uh I was pushing myself Part of it is uh I was pushing myself because that was the environment in because that was the environment in because that was the environment in which I came up. But there was something which I came up. But there was something which I came up. But there was something underneath that too. Something innate in underneath that too. Something innate in underneath that too. Something innate in me. The kid who grew up in the 70s and me. The kid who grew up in the 70s and me. The kid who grew up in the 70s and 808s watching the lifestyles of the rich 808s watching the lifestyles of the rich 808s watching the lifestyles of the rich and famous on TV and who felt that my and famous on TV and who felt that my and famous on TV and who felt that my parents um you know who were both you parents um you know who were both you parents um you know who were both you know academic physicians. Uh I felt like know academic physicians. Uh I felt like know academic physicians. Uh I felt like they didn't make as much money as the they didn't make as much money as the they didn't make as much money as the other kids in my class and I felt I I other kids in my class and I felt I I other kids in my class and I felt I I really would succumb to the comparing really would succumb to the comparing really would succumb to the comparing mind there. Um yeah. So, I'm riffing mind there. Um yeah. So, I'm riffing mind there. Um yeah. So, I'm riffing here and probably saying too much, but here and probably saying too much, but here and probably saying too much, but it's a deep question you're asking us to it's a deep question you're asking us to it's a deep question you're asking us to consider like what is at the root of our consider like what is at the root of our consider like what is at the root of our ambition? ambition? ambition? >> Yes. And I want to separate two >> Yes. And I want to separate two >> Yes. And I want to separate two different uh cases. I want to separate different uh cases. I want to separate different uh cases. I want to separate separate out the people who have bosses separate out the people who have bosses separate out the people who have bosses like you did who insist that you stand like you did who insist that you stand like you did who insist that you stand out in the cold and the rain in Iowa uh out in the cold and the rain in Iowa uh out in the cold and the rain in Iowa uh in in the winter and then get sick and in in the winter and then get sick and in in the winter and then get sick and then criticize you for getting sick for then criticize you for getting sick for then criticize you for getting sick for the thing they told you to do that made the thing they told you to do that made the thing they told you to do that made you sick. or the bosses that are you sick. or the bosses that are you sick. or the bosses that are counting keystrokes and wanting to know counting keystrokes and wanting to know counting keystrokes and wanting to know why you weren't on your laptop at 9:00 why you weren't on your laptop at 9:00 why you weren't on your laptop at 9:00 at night such a reasonable hour and who at night such a reasonable hour and who at night such a reasonable hour and who cares that your kid had a birthday. I I cares that your kid had a birthday. I I cares that your kid had a birthday. I I want to separate out those people from want to separate out those people from want to separate out those people from the people who do it in a self-imposed the people who do it in a self-imposed the people who do it in a self-imposed way, which is many many people have more way, which is many many people have more way, which is many many people have more degrees of freedom than that and but degrees of freedom than that and but degrees of freedom than that and but they self-impose it because this is what they self-impose it because this is what they self-impose it because this is what it takes to win. These are the memes you it takes to win. These are the memes you it takes to win. These are the memes you see on social media like what it takes see on social media like what it takes see on social media like what it takes to win like you know like you have to to win like you know like you have to to win like you know like you have to hustle, you have to grind it out, you hustle, you have to grind it out, you hustle, you have to grind it out, you have to work 24/7, you you know you have have to work 24/7, you you know you have have to work 24/7, you you know you have to do these things. All these um you to do these things. All these um you to do these things. All these um you know truisms that are false because in know truisms that are false because in know truisms that are false because in fact your productivity declines, your fact your productivity declines, your fact your productivity declines, your creativity declines, your error rate creativity declines, your error rate creativity declines, your error rate increases. The more fatigued you are, increases. The more fatigued you are, increases. The more fatigued you are, the less good you are. And so actually the less good you are. And so actually the less good you are. And so actually taking breaks will improve your taking breaks will improve your taking breaks will improve your productivity, will improve the end productivity, will improve the end productivity, will improve the end product, will actually get you something product, will actually get you something product, will actually get you something better. Um, and so the there's some, you better. Um, and so the there's some, you better. Um, and so the there's some, you know, those who have the are in cultures know, those who have the are in cultures know, those who have the are in cultures that are toxic or have bosses who are that are toxic or have bosses who are that are toxic or have bosses who are difficult, who have expectations that difficult, who have expectations that difficult, who have expectations that are like, no, you must be on 24/7. It's are like, no, you must be on 24/7. It's are like, no, you must be on 24/7. It's a always on work culture here. you know, a always on work culture here. you know, a always on work culture here. you know, all the kinds of places, you know, that all the kinds of places, you know, that all the kinds of places, you know, that people tell me about where like they people tell me about where like they people tell me about where like they come and they say you you have um uh uh come and they say you you have um uh uh come and they say you you have um uh uh unlimited vacation days and then you try unlimited vacation days and then you try unlimited vacation days and then you try to take your first vacation and they to take your first vacation and they to take your first vacation and they say, "Oh, you can take as much vacation say, "Oh, you can take as much vacation say, "Oh, you can take as much vacation as you want. You just have to attend all as you want. You just have to attend all as you want. You just have to attend all your meetings while you're away." I mean your meetings while you're away." I mean your meetings while you're away." I mean literally, you know, literally that's literally, you know, literally that's literally, you know, literally that's that those things happen and then you're that those things happen and then you're that those things happen and then you're like, I see um you know, so those people like, I see um you know, so those people like, I see um you know, so those people really those people have to do the math really those people have to do the math really those people have to do the math about like is this a place I want to about like is this a place I want to about like is this a place I want to keep working or is this a stepping stone keep working or is this a stepping stone keep working or is this a stepping stone that I will take but I will really limit that I will take but I will really limit that I will take but I will really limit it to this amount of time if I can't it to this amount of time if I can't it to this amount of time if I can't move within this amount of time and and move within this amount of time and and move within this amount of time and and and that's when I say to them like do and that's when I say to them like do and that's when I say to them like do the math in which quality of life is a the math in which quality of life is a the math in which quality of life is a factor. How much in comp is quality of factor. How much in comp is quality of factor. How much in comp is quality of life worth? How much comp is health and life worth? How much comp is health and life worth? How much comp is health and happiness worth? If it's less comp but happiness worth? If it's less comp but happiness worth? If it's less comp but better quality of life, it is something better quality of life, it is something better quality of life, it is something you should consider. Don't keep your eye you should consider. Don't keep your eye you should consider. Don't keep your eye just on total comp and be like, I need just on total comp and be like, I need just on total comp and be like, I need to get to a certain arbitrary level cuz to get to a certain arbitrary level cuz to get to a certain arbitrary level cuz I decided that. Look at what it's I decided that. Look at what it's I decided that. Look at what it's costing you. costing you. costing you. >> And I guess what I'm pointing at and >> And I guess what I'm pointing at and >> And I guess what I'm pointing at and what I think you were pointing at what I think you were pointing at what I think you were pointing at earlier is not just look at what it's earlier is not just look at what it's earlier is not just look at what it's costing you. Why do you want the comp? costing you. Why do you want the comp? costing you. Why do you want the comp? Like what is truly driving you? We tend Like what is truly driving you? We tend Like what is truly driving you? We tend to compare to the people who have more to compare to the people who have more to compare to the people who have more than us much more than we do to the than us much more than we do to the than us much more than we do to the people who have less than us. So when people who have less than us. So when people who have less than us. So when you're climbing a ladder, you're always you're climbing a ladder, you're always you're climbing a ladder, you're always looking at the rung above you and looking at the rung above you and looking at the rung above you and saying, "I could have that next if I did saying, "I could have that next if I did saying, "I could have that next if I did such and such and such." Some people such and such and such." Some people such and such and such." Some people look several rungs above them. Some look several rungs above them. Some look several rungs above them. Some people stand on the ground, look at the people stand on the ground, look at the people stand on the ground, look at the top of the ladder and go, "That's me." top of the ladder and go, "That's me." top of the ladder and go, "That's me." You know, and and you know, off you go You know, and and you know, off you go You know, and and you know, off you go to try and to try and get that. People to try and to try and get that. People to try and to try and get that. People don't ask necessarily a the why and b don't ask necessarily a the why and b don't ask necessarily a the why and b what matters. In other words, let's say what matters. In other words, let's say what matters. In other words, let's say you have it. How does it change your you have it. How does it change your you have it. How does it change your life? Because for lots of people it life? Because for lots of people it life? Because for lots of people it doesn't because then they're just doesn't because then they're just doesn't because then they're just looking up at the next rung and going looking up at the next rung and going looking up at the next rung and going now I have to go for that. And they're now I have to go for that. And they're now I have to go for that. And they're not even using the ability they have to not even using the ability they have to not even using the ability they have to do certain things to do those things. do certain things to do those things. do certain things to do those things. They're just putting those aside, They're just putting those aside, They're just putting those aside, deferring and pushing ahead to be in a deferring and pushing ahead to be in a deferring and pushing ahead to be in a rat race to win a race that no one rat race to win a race that no one rat race to win a race that no one actually asked them to enter. Some of my actually asked them to enter. Some of my actually asked them to enter. Some of my clients are extremely wealthy. I've clients are extremely wealthy. I've clients are extremely wealthy. I've literally spoken with people who say to literally spoken with people who say to literally spoken with people who say to me like, "Yeah, but I need to keep me like, "Yeah, but I need to keep me like, "Yeah, but I need to keep grinding it out because my I'm not at grinding it out because my I'm not at grinding it out because my I'm not at that next level." And I'm like, "What's that next level." And I'm like, "What's that next level." And I'm like, "What's the next level for you?" These are very the next level for you?" These are very the next level for you?" These are very wealthy people. Like, I can't really wealthy people. Like, I can't really wealthy people. Like, I can't really afford a private plane yet. [laughter] afford a private plane yet. [laughter] afford a private plane yet. [laughter] You might not be able to afford a You might not be able to afford a You might not be able to afford a private plane, but you can afford a private plane, but you can afford a private plane, but you can afford a private room in the hospital where you private room in the hospital where you private room in the hospital where you will be if you continue at this pace, will be if you continue at this pace, will be if you continue at this pace, you know. you know. you know. >> Yes. Yes. Yes. I'm laughing, but I see >> Yes. Yes. Yes. I'm laughing, but I see >> Yes. Yes. Yes. I'm laughing, but I see myself in in this insanity. And I would myself in in this insanity. And I would myself in in this insanity. And I would >> all there at different levels, right? I >> all there at different levels, right? I >> all there at different levels, right? I mean, whatever it's not a private plane mean, whatever it's not a private plane mean, whatever it's not a private plane for most, but whatever the ne that next for most, but whatever the ne that next for most, but whatever the ne that next level is just still there. Speaking level is just still there. Speaking level is just still there. Speaking personally as as a Buddhist, it just personally as as a Buddhist, it just personally as as a Buddhist, it just speaks to the insatiability that the speaks to the insatiability that the speaks to the insatiability that the Buddha very astutely diagnosed in us Buddha very astutely diagnosed in us Buddha very astutely diagnosed in us that it's it's never enough. that it's it's never enough. that it's it's never enough. >> It's very difficult to feel sated. >> It's very difficult to feel sated. >> It's very difficult to feel sated. >> And I think what you're asking us to do >> And I think what you're asking us to do >> And I think what you're asking us to do is is to ask at what cost and to start is is to ask at what cost and to start is is to ask at what cost and to start to think about the accumulation or to think about the accumulation or to think about the accumulation or quality of life in terms of just to quality of life in terms of just to quality of life in terms of just to widen the aperture. It's not just about widen the aperture. It's not just about widen the aperture. It's not just about the comp. It's about your overall the comp. It's about your overall the comp. It's about your overall quality of life. quality of life. quality of life. >> Yes. One question I ask people and it >> Yes. One question I ask people and it >> Yes. One question I ask people and it might seem like a very simple one, but might seem like a very simple one, but might seem like a very simple one, but when we talk about work life balance, when we talk about work life balance, when we talk about work life balance, they say, "Oh, you know, my work life they say, "Oh, you know, my work life they say, "Oh, you know, my work life balance, I need to work on my work life balance, I need to work on my work life balance, I need to work on my work life balance." I'm like, "Terrific. I balance." I'm like, "Terrific. I balance." I'm like, "Terrific. I understand work. What does life mean? understand work. What does life mean? understand work. What does life mean? When you say the life part of the When you say the life part of the When you say the life part of the balance, what is that for you?" And balance, what is that for you?" And balance, what is that for you?" And people really stumble on that. I mean, people really stumble on that. I mean, people really stumble on that. I mean, that they'll always start by saying, that they'll always start by saying, that they'll always start by saying, "Well, well, I I I and I I'm going to "Well, well, I I I and I I'm going to "Well, well, I I I and I I'm going to add a couple of hours of yoga." And I'm add a couple of hours of yoga." And I'm add a couple of hours of yoga." And I'm like, that's terrific like, that's terrific like, that's terrific life. What does that mean beyond the two life. What does that mean beyond the two life. What does that mean beyond the two hours of yoga? Now, what I think it hours of yoga? Now, what I think it hours of yoga? Now, what I think it means is that you get to do homework means is that you get to do homework means is that you get to do homework with your kids or read them a bedtime with your kids or read them a bedtime with your kids or read them a bedtime story or have a nice evening with your story or have a nice evening with your story or have a nice evening with your partner or be out with friends and be partner or be out with friends and be partner or be out with friends and be able to be present when you're doing it able to be present when you're doing it able to be present when you're doing it or enjoy binging the show that you want or enjoy binging the show that you want or enjoy binging the show that you want to binge and truly be able to be present to binge and truly be able to be present to binge and truly be able to be present and enjoy it. It's being present in the and enjoy it. It's being present in the and enjoy it. It's being present in the small moments of life. That's the life small moments of life. That's the life small moments of life. That's the life part of the work life balance to me. And part of the work life balance to me. And part of the work life balance to me. And yes, it means experiences, it means yes, it means experiences, it means yes, it means experiences, it means holidays, it means vacations, it means holidays, it means vacations, it means holidays, it means vacations, it means other things, but primarily it means other things, but primarily it means other things, but primarily it means that and that's what people, you know, that and that's what people, you know, that and that's what people, you know, like I haven't defined and so they they, like I haven't defined and so they they, like I haven't defined and so they they, you know, they're not aiming for that. you know, they're not aiming for that. you know, they're not aiming for that. This episode is sponsored by Better This episode is sponsored by Better This episode is sponsored by Better Help. We talk about mental health more Help. We talk about mental health more Help. We talk about mental health more openly these days, but asking for help openly these days, but asking for help openly these days, but asking for help can still feel hard and BetterHelp's can still feel hard and BetterHelp's can still feel hard and BetterHelp's latest research confirms this. latest research confirms this. latest research confirms this. BetterHelp's 2026 state of stigma report BetterHelp's 2026 state of stigma report BetterHelp's 2026 state of stigma report surveyed 2,000 Americans and revealed surveyed 2,000 Americans and revealed surveyed 2,000 Americans and revealed that 85% of Americans believe getting that 85% of Americans believe getting that 85% of Americans believe getting support is wise. Yet 74% say society support is wise. Yet 74% say society support is wise. Yet 74% say society discourages people from doing so. I find discourages people from doing so. I find discourages people from doing so. I find these numbers personally quite these numbers personally quite these numbers personally quite disturbing. Nobody should feel disturbing. Nobody should feel disturbing. Nobody should feel stigmatized for getting help. You don't stigmatized for getting help. You don't stigmatized for getting help. You don't feel funny about getting your heart feel funny about getting your heart feel funny about getting your heart checked. So getting your brain and mind checked. So getting your brain and mind checked. So getting your brain and mind checked should be completely fine. I see checked should be completely fine. I see checked should be completely fine. I see a therapist, have seen a therapist since a therapist, have seen a therapist since a therapist, have seen a therapist since I was a little boy. It is an enormously I was a little boy. It is an enormously I was a little boy. It is an enormously helpful thing to do and it's also not helpful thing to do and it's also not helpful thing to do and it's also not for nothing not self-indulgent because for nothing not self-indulgent because for nothing not self-indulgent because taking care of yourself helps you be taking care of yourself helps you be taking care of yourself helps you be better resourced and better prepared to better resourced and better prepared to better resourced and better prepared to take care of other people. With over take care of other people. With over take care of other people. With over 30,000 therapists, BetterHelp is the 30,000 therapists, BetterHelp is the 30,000 therapists, BetterHelp is the world's largest online therapy platform, world's largest online therapy platform, world's largest online therapy platform, having served over 6 million people having served over 6 million people having served over 6 million people globally. Don't let stigma stand in the globally. Don't let stigma stand in the globally. Don't let stigma stand in the way of support. Start therapy with way of support. Start therapy with way of support. Start therapy with BetterHelp. Sign up and get 10% off at BetterHelp. Sign up and get 10% off at BetterHelp. Sign up and get 10% off at betterhelp.com/happier. betterhelp.com/happier. betterhelp.com/happier. That's betterhp.com/happhappier. I do want to signal that there are all I do want to signal that there are all these practical tools in your book which these practical tools in your book which these practical tools in your book which again is called Mind Over Grind that I again is called Mind Over Grind that I again is called Mind Over Grind that I want to get to. But just since we're on want to get to. But just since we're on want to get to. But just since we're on this subject of like what's motivating this subject of like what's motivating this subject of like what's motivating us, I'll say something and I may have us, I'll say something and I may have us, I'll say something and I may have said this on the show before. So loyal said this on the show before. So loyal said this on the show before. So loyal listeners and viewers, I apologize if I listeners and viewers, I apologize if I listeners and viewers, I apologize if I if I'm being repetitive here, but I if I'm being repetitive here, but I if I'm being repetitive here, but I remember having a conversation many remember having a conversation many remember having a conversation many years ago with my executive coach who years ago with my executive coach who years ago with my executive coach who I've had the good fortune of being able I've had the good fortune of being able I've had the good fortune of being able to work with for a long time, a guy to work with for a long time, a guy to work with for a long time, a guy named Jerry Colona. He was saying that named Jerry Colona. He was saying that named Jerry Colona. He was saying that many of his clients get very scared when many of his clients get very scared when many of his clients get very scared when he tries to take away from them the fuel he tries to take away from them the fuel he tries to take away from them the fuel of self-criticism and insufficiency of self-criticism and insufficiency of self-criticism and insufficiency because they believe that they need that because they believe that they need that because they believe that they need that in order to get anything done. And his in order to get anything done. And his in order to get anything done. And his argument is that actually you can be argument is that actually you can be argument is that actually you can be fueled by something much healthier which fueled by something much healthier which fueled by something much healthier which is love properly understood. love of is love properly understood. love of is love properly understood. love of yourself, love of the world, love of yourself, love of the world, love of yourself, love of the world, love of your family, love of the people you're your family, love of the people you're your family, love of the people you're allegedly serving in your job, love of allegedly serving in your job, love of allegedly serving in your job, love of your colleagues. And that actually will your colleagues. And that actually will your colleagues. And that actually will take you much further. And I didn't like take you much further. And I didn't like take you much further. And I didn't like when he said that, but I have to say when he said that, but I have to say when he said that, but I have to say over time that really has in my ser over time that really has in my ser over time that really has in my ser moments become the thing that drives me moments become the thing that drives me moments become the thing that drives me now. now. now. >> I have an issue with self-criticism in >> I have an issue with self-criticism in >> I have an issue with self-criticism in that I don't see the point of it. It is that I don't see the point of it. It is that I don't see the point of it. It is a very damaging practice. And the part a very damaging practice. And the part a very damaging practice. And the part that's damaging is not the that's damaging is not the that's damaging is not the selfreflection. It's not the selfreflection. It's not the selfreflection. It's not the accountability. It's not the accountability. It's not the accountability. It's not the responsibility. It's not the due responsibility. It's not the due responsibility. It's not the due diligence. It's the criticism part. It's diligence. It's the criticism part. It's diligence. It's the criticism part. It's the bullying part. It's the name the bullying part. It's the name the bullying part. It's the name calling. It's call ourselves calling calling. It's call ourselves calling calling. It's call ourselves calling ourselves idiot and I'm such a loser and ourselves idiot and I'm such a loser and ourselves idiot and I'm such a loser and how could I do that and shaming how could I do that and shaming how could I do that and shaming ourselves and you know belittling ourselves and you know belittling ourselves and you know belittling ourselves. that adds zero value to ourselves. that adds zero value to ourselves. that adds zero value to anything that you're doing and it will anything that you're doing and it will anything that you're doing and it will absolutely do a number on your absolutely do a number on your absolutely do a number on your motivation, on your ability to to draw motivation, on your ability to to draw motivation, on your ability to to draw forth on your abilities and your skills forth on your abilities and your skills forth on your abilities and your skills and your talents because you're and your talents because you're and your talents because you're actually, you know, kicking them and and actually, you know, kicking them and and actually, you know, kicking them and and diminishing them. What you need to do is diminishing them. What you need to do is diminishing them. What you need to do is be accountable. Strive for success. If be accountable. Strive for success. If be accountable. Strive for success. If things do not go well, by all means, things do not go well, by all means, things do not go well, by all means, look at why, what you did wrong, what look at why, what you did wrong, what look at why, what you did wrong, what you could have done better, what you can you could have done better, what you can you could have done better, what you can learn from it. But you don't need to wag learn from it. But you don't need to wag learn from it. But you don't need to wag a finger in your face in order to learn a finger in your face in order to learn a finger in your face in order to learn that you would learn much better. You that you would learn much better. You that you would learn much better. You would gain much more if you didn't. would gain much more if you didn't. would gain much more if you didn't. People don't do the post-mortem after People don't do the post-mortem after People don't do the post-mortem after failures because they tend to do it so failures because they tend to do it so failures because they tend to do it so self-critically. It's so unpleasant for self-critically. It's so unpleasant for self-critically. It's so unpleasant for them. They try and avoid it. But if you them. They try and avoid it. But if you them. They try and avoid it. But if you weren't doing it in a self-critical way, weren't doing it in a self-critical way, weren't doing it in a self-critical way, if you were just doing it in a very if you were just doing it in a very if you were just doing it in a very emotionfree, just observational due emotionfree, just observational due emotionfree, just observational due diligence way, then you would do much diligence way, then you would do much diligence way, then you would do much more of it. You would be able to learn more of it. You would be able to learn more of it. You would be able to learn from your errors much more. You'd be from your errors much more. You'd be from your errors much more. You'd be able to correct them. you're able to do able to correct them. you're able to do able to correct them. you're able to do better and in doing say in doing so gain better and in doing say in doing so gain better and in doing say in doing so gain a sense of control, gain a sense of a sense of control, gain a sense of a sense of control, gain a sense of agency, gain a sense of of of efficacy agency, gain a sense of of of efficacy agency, gain a sense of of of efficacy and and those are going to serve you. and and those are going to serve you. and and those are going to serve you. The the the critical part of The the the critical part of The the the critical part of self-criticism is absolutely damaging self-criticism is absolutely damaging self-criticism is absolutely damaging and and unnecessary. and and unnecessary. and and unnecessary. >> And there's a lot of data to support >> And there's a lot of data to support >> And there's a lot of data to support what you're saying. I often think about what you're saying. I often think about what you're saying. I often think about it as um moving from an inner drill it as um moving from an inner drill it as um moving from an inner drill sergeant to an inner coach. A coach sergeant to an inner coach. A coach sergeant to an inner coach. A coach doesn't fail to point out when you've doesn't fail to point out when you've doesn't fail to point out when you've made mistakes that but she or he just made mistakes that but she or he just made mistakes that but she or he just isn't a jerk about it. And that's that's isn't a jerk about it. And that's that's isn't a jerk about it. And that's that's the crucial part. And and again, there's the crucial part. And and again, there's the crucial part. And and again, there's research to show that people who have research to show that people who have research to show that people who have this kind of supportive but still honest this kind of supportive but still honest this kind of supportive but still honest attitude internally are more likely, not attitude internally are more likely, not attitude internally are more likely, not less likely, to reach their goals. Okay. less likely, to reach their goals. Okay. less likely, to reach their goals. Okay. I do want to talk a little bit about uh I do want to talk a little bit about uh I do want to talk a little bit about uh some of the specific strategies that you some of the specific strategies that you some of the specific strategies that you re recommend in your book again, mind re recommend in your book again, mind re recommend in your book again, mind over grind. One of the things you talk over grind. One of the things you talk over grind. One of the things you talk about is a kind of mindset shift, moving about is a kind of mindset shift, moving about is a kind of mindset shift, moving from like a threat mindset to a a from like a threat mindset to a a from like a threat mindset to a a challenge mindset. Can you talk about challenge mindset. Can you talk about challenge mindset. Can you talk about what what you mean by this? what what you mean by this? what what you mean by this? >> The challenge versus threat mindset >> The challenge versus threat mindset >> The challenge versus threat mindset theory is is one of the prevailing theory is is one of the prevailing theory is is one of the prevailing theories in sports psychology. It theories in sports psychology. It theories in sports psychology. It contends that if you approach a contends that if you approach a contends that if you approach a difficult task, if you approach the game difficult task, if you approach the game difficult task, if you approach the game day, the big presentation, you know, the day, the big presentation, you know, the day, the big presentation, you know, the the track meet with a mindset of I am the track meet with a mindset of I am the track meet with a mindset of I am prepared, I am ready, I'm going to crush prepared, I am ready, I'm going to crush prepared, I am ready, I'm going to crush this, I'm going out to win, you're this, I'm going out to win, you're this, I'm going out to win, you're really going out to crush it, to do the really going out to crush it, to do the really going out to crush it, to do the best you can, that puts you in one best you can, that puts you in one best you can, that puts you in one specific mindset. If you approach the specific mindset. If you approach the specific mindset. If you approach the same task, which you want to win, which same task, which you want to win, which same task, which you want to win, which you want to do well at, but you feel you want to do well at, but you feel you want to do well at, but you feel you're not fully prepared, you don't you're not fully prepared, you don't you're not fully prepared, you don't fully have the skills to do it. So fully have the skills to do it. So fully have the skills to do it. So you're hoping to win, but you're really you're hoping to win, but you're really you're hoping to win, but you're really just trying not to lose, which is a just trying not to lose, which is a just trying not to lose, which is a nuance because you want to win in both nuance because you want to win in both nuance because you want to win in both cases, but in one cases you feel that cases, but in one cases you feel that cases, but in one cases you feel that you are up to the task and the other you are up to the task and the other you are up to the task and the other you're questioning that. That makes that you're questioning that. That makes that you're questioning that. That makes that task seem more like a threat than a task seem more like a threat than a task seem more like a threat than a challenge to which you are for which you challenge to which you are for which you challenge to which you are for which you are equipped. And that difference in are equipped. And that difference in are equipped. And that difference in mindset has a huge ramification in terms mindset has a huge ramification in terms mindset has a huge ramification in terms of brain chemistry, in terms of of brain chemistry, in terms of of brain chemistry, in terms of transmitters, how your body responds, transmitters, how your body responds, transmitters, how your body responds, how your mind responds, how your brain how your mind responds, how your brain how your mind responds, how your brain works. And it contributes in the when works. And it contributes in the when works. And it contributes in the when you see there's a challenge to which you see there's a challenge to which you see there's a challenge to which you're equipped, you will do much much you're equipped, you will do much much you're equipped, you will do much much better than if you worried about losing. better than if you worried about losing. better than if you worried about losing. Where you can see this most at play to Where you can see this most at play to Where you can see this most at play to me and you know like in sports is in me and you know like in sports is in me and you know like in sports is in tennis. You can see someone leading and tennis. You can see someone leading and tennis. You can see someone leading and they're not making errors. They're, you they're not making errors. They're, you they're not making errors. They're, you know, they're doing everything really know, they're doing everything really know, they're doing everything really well and then they start to fall behind well and then they start to fall behind well and then they start to fall behind and suddenly they're double faulting. and suddenly they're double faulting. and suddenly they're double faulting. They're making errors. They're just They're making errors. They're just They're making errors. They're just because, and you can see what happened because, and you can see what happened because, and you can see what happened in their head. It switched from a in their head. It switched from a in their head. It switched from a challenge mindset to a threat mindset to challenge mindset to a threat mindset to challenge mindset to a threat mindset to the uhoh, I don't want to lose. And I the uhoh, I don't want to lose. And I the uhoh, I don't want to lose. And I don't want to lose is a terrible don't want to lose is a terrible don't want to lose is a terrible motivator. It's a very different motivator. It's a very different motivator. It's a very different motivator than I want to win. This is motivator than I want to win. This is motivator than I want to win. This is the exact right day for me to hear you the exact right day for me to hear you the exact right day for me to hear you say that because I'm I'm contemplating say that because I'm I'm contemplating say that because I'm I'm contemplating work project and I think I've been work project and I think I've been work project and I think I've been mostly motivated by threat and just the mostly motivated by threat and just the mostly motivated by threat and just the tweak of no this is a big interesting tweak of no this is a big interesting tweak of no this is a big interesting challenge and by the way it could help a challenge and by the way it could help a challenge and by the way it could help a lot of people if I get it right is a lot of people if I get it right is a lot of people if I get it right is a much healthier and creative and much healthier and creative and much healthier and creative and generative space out of which to operate generative space out of which to operate generative space out of which to operate than the if I get this wrong than the if I get this wrong than the if I get this wrong everything's mindset which is everything's mindset which is everything's mindset which is where I was. So thank you to help us do where I was. So thank you to help us do where I was. So thank you to help us do this to make this switch. You recommend this to make this switch. You recommend this to make this switch. You recommend something called the mind whisperer something called the mind whisperer something called the mind whisperer exercise. What is that? exercise. What is that? exercise. What is that? >> A lot of the times when people face a >> A lot of the times when people face a >> A lot of the times when people face a challenge and they start to worry, they challenge and they start to worry, they challenge and they start to worry, they start to say to themselves, uh, oh, I start to say to themselves, uh, oh, I start to say to themselves, uh, oh, I can't handle this. This is going to be can't handle this. This is going to be can't handle this. This is going to be too stressful. They start thinking about too stressful. They start thinking about too stressful. They start thinking about it in a negative way. When you're doing it in a negative way. When you're doing it in a negative way. When you're doing that, this is what psyching yourself out that, this is what psyching yourself out that, this is what psyching yourself out means. It means conveying to your means. It means conveying to your means. It means conveying to your unconscious mind that you are worried unconscious mind that you are worried unconscious mind that you are worried about your ability to do something and about your ability to do something and about your ability to do something and then your unconscious mind hears it and then your unconscious mind hears it and then your unconscious mind hears it and will make you more anxious because will make you more anxious because will make you more anxious because apparently this is very overwhelming. So apparently this is very overwhelming. So apparently this is very overwhelming. So psyching yourself out kind of means psyching yourself out kind of means psyching yourself out kind of means psyching your unconscious mind out. Now psyching your unconscious mind out. Now psyching your unconscious mind out. Now our unconscious mind is not a our unconscious mind is not a our unconscious mind is not a self-organized self-conscious thing. self-organized self-conscious thing. self-organized self-conscious thing. There's no gremlin in our head that's There's no gremlin in our head that's There's no gremlin in our head that's pulling levers. It's automatic pulling levers. It's automatic pulling levers. It's automatic processes. But those automatic processes processes. But those automatic processes processes. But those automatic processes do uh are impacted by our thought do uh are impacted by our thought do uh are impacted by our thought process and by the messaging we give it process and by the messaging we give it process and by the messaging we give it when we're saying to ourel this is going when we're saying to ourel this is going when we're saying to ourel this is going to be overwhelming. This is going to be to be overwhelming. This is going to be to be overwhelming. This is going to be too stressful. Um I can't handle it. I too stressful. Um I can't handle it. I too stressful. Um I can't handle it. I just can't handle that. I just can't just can't handle that. I just can't just can't handle that. I just can't handle it if it happens again. You know handle it if it happens again. You know handle it if it happens again. You know those kinds of statements are really those kinds of statements are really those kinds of statements are really going to be a disservice to us. Instead going to be a disservice to us. Instead going to be a disservice to us. Instead we want to the mind whisperer is to we want to the mind whisperer is to we want to the mind whisperer is to whisper to our unconscious mind in a way whisper to our unconscious mind in a way whisper to our unconscious mind in a way that it'll believe. You can't say to that it'll believe. You can't say to that it'll believe. You can't say to your unconscious mind no I've got this your unconscious mind no I've got this your unconscious mind no I've got this entirely covered if that's not how you entirely covered if that's not how you entirely covered if that's not how you feel. Because your unconscious mind feel. Because your unconscious mind feel. Because your unconscious mind knows how you feel. It's part of your knows how you feel. It's part of your knows how you feel. It's part of your brain. What you can say to it is, "This brain. What you can say to it is, "This brain. What you can say to it is, "This is going to be stressful, but I can is going to be stressful, but I can is going to be stressful, but I can handle it. This is going to be hard, but handle it. This is going to be hard, but handle it. This is going to be hard, but I've got it covered or I'll get it I've got it covered or I'll get it I've got it covered or I'll get it covered. This is going to be a lot of covered. This is going to be a lot of covered. This is going to be a lot of work, but I'll I'll really prepare well work, but I'll I'll really prepare well work, but I'll I'll really prepare well for it." In other words, you're saying for it." In other words, you're saying for it." In other words, you're saying things that acknowledge the the the things that acknowledge the the the things that acknowledge the the the difficulty because you can't lie to your difficulty because you can't lie to your difficulty because you can't lie to your unconscious mind, but add the nuance of, unconscious mind, but add the nuance of, unconscious mind, but add the nuance of, you know, confidence that you'll prepare you know, confidence that you'll prepare you know, confidence that you'll prepare accordingly, that you'll be able to accordingly, that you'll be able to accordingly, that you'll be able to handle it. And that can help, you know, handle it. And that can help, you know, handle it. And that can help, you know, pivot you from the threat mindset, you pivot you from the threat mindset, you pivot you from the threat mindset, you know, to a challenge one. And then you know, to a challenge one. And then you know, to a challenge one. And then you can then add to it. you know this is can then add to it. you know this is can then add to it. you know this is going to be really difficult but I know going to be really difficult but I know going to be really difficult but I know here's what I do when I'm giving let's here's what I do when I'm giving let's here's what I do when I'm giving let's say a really important talk like a you say a really important talk like a you say a really important talk like a you know a TED talk which you've done um know a TED talk which you've done um know a TED talk which you've done um like you've gave a TED talk in Vancouver like you've gave a TED talk in Vancouver like you've gave a TED talk in Vancouver I given one too it's quite stressful I given one too it's quite stressful I given one too it's quite stressful that's you might have not been stressed that's you might have not been stressed that's you might have not been stressed cuz I I was there when you gave it and cuz I I was there when you gave it and cuz I I was there when you gave it and you did a magnificent job I was quite you did a magnificent job I was quite you did a magnificent job I was quite quite stressed when I did it but what I quite stressed when I did it but what I quite stressed when I did it but what I said to myself ahead of time was this is said to myself ahead of time was this is said to myself ahead of time was this is really stressful but I know myself if I really stressful but I know myself if I really stressful but I know myself if I can prepare well enough and I will can prepare well enough and I will can prepare well enough and I will prepare well enough I'm really going to prepare well enough I'm really going to prepare well enough I'm really going to be able to do well and I can even enjoy be able to do well and I can even enjoy be able to do well and I can even enjoy it. Like I'm giving myself the message it. Like I'm giving myself the message it. Like I'm giving myself the message of yes, this is going to be difficult, of yes, this is going to be difficult, of yes, this is going to be difficult, but I know myself if I'll be prepared, but I know myself if I'll be prepared, but I know myself if I'll be prepared, I'll be able to do well and I might even I'll be able to do well and I might even I'll be able to do well and I might even enjoy it. That's the kind of messaging enjoy it. That's the kind of messaging enjoy it. That's the kind of messaging you want to be able to give. you want to be able to give. you want to be able to give. >> I just think it's so powerful and again >> I just think it's so powerful and again >> I just think it's so powerful and again it's the the thing I needed to hear it's the the thing I needed to hear it's the the thing I needed to hear specifically today. This idea that you specifically today. This idea that you specifically today. This idea that you and we we talked about this earlier, the and we we talked about this earlier, the and we we talked about this earlier, the idea that you can be your own coach and idea that you can be your own coach and idea that you can be your own coach and it's not going soft. It's coaching it's not going soft. It's coaching it's not going soft. It's coaching yourself to greater heights than you yourself to greater heights than you yourself to greater heights than you would ever reach if you rely upon the would ever reach if you rely upon the would ever reach if you rely upon the old internal old internal old internal cattle prod punitive model. cattle prod punitive model. cattle prod punitive model. >> I am all for success. I I want to be >> I am all for success. I I want to be >> I am all for success. I I want to be successful. I want to reach heights. I successful. I want to reach heights. I successful. I want to reach heights. I want the people I work with to be able want the people I work with to be able want the people I work with to be able to reach the heights that they set for to reach the heights that they set for to reach the heights that they set for themselves. I just want them and I want themselves. I just want them and I want themselves. I just want them and I want myself to be smart about how you do it. myself to be smart about how you do it. myself to be smart about how you do it. I don't know if I'm going to get through I don't know if I'm going to get through I don't know if I'm going to get through all all my whole list of questions I all all my whole list of questions I all all my whole list of questions I want to ask you, but another thing you want to ask you, but another thing you want to ask you, but another thing you talk about in the book um is how to stop talk about in the book um is how to stop talk about in the book um is how to stop intrusive thoughts after hours. If intrusive thoughts after hours. If intrusive thoughts after hours. If you're home and you're thinking about you're home and you're thinking about you're home and you're thinking about work, uh what do you recommend? work, uh what do you recommend? work, uh what do you recommend? >> How we typically think about work after >> How we typically think about work after >> How we typically think about work after hours is one of two ways. Either we're hours is one of two ways. Either we're hours is one of two ways. Either we're figuring something out. I have that figuring something out. I have that figuring something out. I have that presentation. Maybe I need to start with presentation. Maybe I need to start with presentation. Maybe I need to start with this slide rather than that slide. You this slide rather than that slide. You this slide rather than that slide. You you're actually you're doing work in you're actually you're doing work in you're actually you're doing work in your head. That that's fine. There's not your head. That that's fine. There's not your head. That that's fine. There's not problem with that. But the tendency we problem with that. But the tendency we problem with that. But the tendency we have, especially if the workday, you have, especially if the workday, you have, especially if the workday, you know, was irritating or we were insulted know, was irritating or we were insulted know, was irritating or we were insulted or we were put down or dismissed by a or we were put down or dismissed by a or we were put down or dismissed by a boss, we're aggravated, we're upset boss, we're aggravated, we're upset boss, we're aggravated, we're upset about something, is we are going to tend about something, is we are going to tend about something, is we are going to tend to ruminate about it. We're going to to ruminate about it. We're going to to ruminate about it. We're going to just like spin and chew it over and over just like spin and chew it over and over just like spin and chew it over and over and over. And I don't know anyone who and over. And I don't know anyone who and over. And I don't know anyone who hasn't done the following thing. You had hasn't done the following thing. You had hasn't done the following thing. You had a really difficult day. Someone really a really difficult day. Someone really a really difficult day. Someone really upset you at work and you spend 3 hours upset you at work and you spend 3 hours upset you at work and you spend 3 hours at home fantasizing about how you are at home fantasizing about how you are at home fantasizing about how you are going to tell them off in ways you're going to tell them off in ways you're going to tell them off in ways you're never going to do. You're never going to never going to do. You're never going to never going to do. You're never going to say that to your boss, but you have mic say that to your boss, but you have mic say that to your boss, but you have mic drop moments and I I'm going to say this drop moments and I I'm going to say this drop moments and I I'm going to say this and I in my fantasy I would do that and and I in my fantasy I would do that and and I in my fantasy I would do that and then I would and and you here's what then I would and and you here's what then I would and and you here's what you're actually doing in those three you're actually doing in those three you're actually doing in those three hours. A you are stressing yourself out hours. A you are stressing yourself out hours. A you are stressing yourself out totally and you are taking a very totally and you are taking a very totally and you are taking a very upsetting threeinut exchange with your upsetting threeinut exchange with your upsetting threeinut exchange with your boss and reliving it over and over and boss and reliving it over and over and boss and reliving it over and over and over. And when we relive emotional over. And when we relive emotional over. And when we relive emotional experiences, we reactivate the emotional experiences, we reactivate the emotional experiences, we reactivate the emotional distress we had when we went through distress we had when we went through distress we had when we went through them. If somebody thinks about the time them. If somebody thinks about the time them. If somebody thinks about the time they broke their leg last year, it's not they broke their leg last year, it's not they broke their leg last year, it's not going to make their leg hurt. If they're going to make their leg hurt. If they're going to make their leg hurt. If they're going to think about the time that going to think about the time that going to think about the time that somebody really really disappointed and somebody really really disappointed and somebody really really disappointed and upset them, they're going to feel upset them, they're going to feel upset them, they're going to feel disappointed and upset. So when you're disappointed and upset. So when you're disappointed and upset. So when you're ruminating and you're just spinning ruminating and you're just spinning ruminating and you're just spinning without finding solutions, without without finding solutions, without without finding solutions, without getting any problem solving, without any getting any problem solving, without any getting any problem solving, without any action items, you're just replaying the action items, you're just replaying the action items, you're just replaying the distress and upset, even it's for the distress and upset, even it's for the distress and upset, even it's for the moments of satisfaction, which in your moments of satisfaction, which in your moments of satisfaction, which in your head you show them, but you're never head you show them, but you're never head you show them, but you're never going to show them. Then you just ruined going to show them. Then you just ruined going to show them. Then you just ruined your whole evening. You were checked your whole evening. You were checked your whole evening. You were checked out. You flooded your body with cortisol out. You flooded your body with cortisol out. You flooded your body with cortisol and stress hormones cuz you're and stress hormones cuz you're and stress hormones cuz you're completely worked up. You've extended completely worked up. You've extended completely worked up. You've extended your workday. It's unpaid overtime that your workday. It's unpaid overtime that your workday. It's unpaid overtime that you just volunteered to do and you got you just volunteered to do and you got you just volunteered to do and you got absolutely nothing out of it. [laughter] absolutely nothing out of it. [laughter] absolutely nothing out of it. [laughter] >> Yes. [gasps] Yes. I'm laughing just >> Yes. [gasps] Yes. I'm laughing just >> Yes. [gasps] Yes. I'm laughing just because I've done it so many times. So because I've done it so many times. So because I've done it so many times. So in those moments, what's the move? in those moments, what's the move? in those moments, what's the move? >> The move, therefore, is to do two >> The move, therefore, is to do two >> The move, therefore, is to do two things. Number one, to convert the thing things. Number one, to convert the thing things. Number one, to convert the thing you're ruminating about into a problem you're ruminating about into a problem you're ruminating about into a problem to be solved. So the boss said this to be solved. So the boss said this to be solved. So the boss said this insulting thing. Do I need to do insulting thing. Do I need to do insulting thing. Do I need to do something about that? Do I need to talk something about that? Do I need to talk something about that? Do I need to talk to the boss and address it with them? or to the boss and address it with them? or to the boss and address it with them? or if not, what do I need to change so that if not, what do I need to change so that if not, what do I need to change so that doesn't happen anymore? Let me think of doesn't happen anymore? Let me think of doesn't happen anymore? Let me think of what happened in that meeting right what happened in that meeting right what happened in that meeting right before they kind of like did that thing before they kind of like did that thing before they kind of like did that thing to me. Well, they they asked who was in to me. Well, they they asked who was in to me. Well, they they asked who was in favor of their idea and I wasn't for it. favor of their idea and I wasn't for it. favor of their idea and I wasn't for it. So, maybe they were lashing out at me. So, maybe they were lashing out at me. So, maybe they were lashing out at me. Maybe I need to learn something or maybe Maybe I need to learn something or maybe Maybe I need to learn something or maybe I do need to talk to the boss. If so, I do need to talk to the boss. If so, I do need to talk to the boss. If so, what do I need to say? What's the what do I need to say? What's the what do I need to say? What's the messaging? What's the product that I messaging? What's the product that I messaging? What's the product that I want to get at the end? I want to walk want to get at the end? I want to walk want to get at the end? I want to walk out of that conversation having achieved out of that conversation having achieved out of that conversation having achieved what? And once I define what that is, what? And once I define what that is, what? And once I define what that is, what's the best way for me to get there? what's the best way for me to get there? what's the best way for me to get there? Or, you know what, have a really Or, you know what, have a really Or, you know what, have a really important evening. I want to enjoy it important evening. I want to enjoy it important evening. I want to enjoy it with my family. I'm going to schedule with my family. I'm going to schedule with my family. I'm going to schedule half an hour in the morning to go over half an hour in the morning to go over half an hour in the morning to go over this thing and think about it so I can this thing and think about it so I can this thing and think about it so I can problem solve exactly what's the problem solve exactly what's the problem solve exactly what's the conversation that I'll have with my boss conversation that I'll have with my boss conversation that I'll have with my boss and now I can put it aside. Once you and now I can put it aside. Once you and now I can put it aside. Once you problem solve it, once there's an action problem solve it, once there's an action problem solve it, once there's an action item, once you're trying to resolve item, once you're trying to resolve item, once you're trying to resolve something, you're tying up that loose something, you're tying up that loose something, you're tying up that loose knot in your brain and your brain can knot in your brain and your brain can knot in your brain and your brain can let it go. And if it can't let it go, let it go. And if it can't let it go, let it go. And if it can't let it go, what you can also do is you can reframe what you can also do is you can reframe what you can also do is you can reframe it so it's less upsetting. What drives it so it's less upsetting. What drives it so it's less upsetting. What drives rumination is the emotional insult, the rumination is the emotional insult, the rumination is the emotional insult, the the the upset that you have. So if you the the upset that you have. So if you the the upset that you have. So if you can refrain the thing to make it less can refrain the thing to make it less can refrain the thing to make it less upsetting, upsetting, upsetting, then you'll be less activated to then you'll be less activated to then you'll be less activated to ruminate. You can be like, you know ruminate. You can be like, you know ruminate. You can be like, you know what, I was thinking of looking for a what, I was thinking of looking for a what, I was thinking of looking for a new job in the first place. I'm glad new job in the first place. I'm glad new job in the first place. I'm glad this happened. That was my sign. this happened. That was my sign. this happened. That was my sign. Tomorrow morning, we're going to start Tomorrow morning, we're going to start Tomorrow morning, we're going to start doing it. This was a good thing that doing it. This was a good thing that doing it. This was a good thing that that happened. Or yeah, my coworker that happened. Or yeah, my coworker that happened. Or yeah, my coworker stabbed me in the back. You know what? stabbed me in the back. You know what? stabbed me in the back. You know what? That's very good to know that now I That's very good to know that now I That's very good to know that now I don't trust this person cuz I would have don't trust this person cuz I would have don't trust this person cuz I would have trusted them and that would have been trusted them and that would have been trusted them and that would have been very dangerous. So, okay, they showed very dangerous. So, okay, they showed very dangerous. So, okay, they showed their true colors. Now, that's useful to their true colors. Now, that's useful to their true colors. Now, that's useful to me. You find a way to think about it me. You find a way to think about it me. You find a way to think about it that's less activating. And then you that's less activating. And then you that's less activating. And then you turn it into a problem that can be turn it into a problem that can be turn it into a problem that can be solved. And if none of those things work solved. And if none of those things work solved. And if none of those things work because there's nothing you can actually because there's nothing you can actually because there's nothing you can actually do to solve it, and it's still do to solve it, and it's still do to solve it, and it's still upsetting, but you want to stop upsetting, but you want to stop upsetting, but you want to stop ruminating about it, the research shows ruminating about it, the research shows ruminating about it, the research shows that 2 to 3 minutes of concentrating on that 2 to 3 minutes of concentrating on that 2 to 3 minutes of concentrating on a task that actually requires all your a task that actually requires all your a task that actually requires all your bandwidth is enough to let the urge to bandwidth is enough to let the urge to bandwidth is enough to let the urge to ruminate pass. Because that urge is a ruminate pass. Because that urge is a ruminate pass. Because that urge is a little bit like a craving. You just kind little bit like a craving. You just kind little bit like a craving. You just kind of let it pass. So you can do things of let it pass. So you can do things of let it pass. So you can do things like my go-to is Wordle, which like my go-to is Wordle, which like my go-to is Wordle, which unfortunately is good for only one unfortunately is good for only one unfortunately is good for only one rumination a day. So you need more than rumination a day. So you need more than rumination a day. So you need more than just that, but but but something that just that, but but but something that just that, but but but something that requires a lot of concentration. requires a lot of concentration. requires a lot of concentration. >> This is great. We've talked a lot here >> This is great. We've talked a lot here >> This is great. We've talked a lot here about shitty days at work. If you've had about shitty days at work. If you've had about shitty days at work. If you've had one, uh or even if you've just had a one, uh or even if you've just had a one, uh or even if you've just had a busy day at work, what how do we recover busy day at work, what how do we recover busy day at work, what how do we recover at the end of the day so we're not doing at the end of the day so we're not doing at the end of the day so we're not doing unpaid overtime? unpaid overtime? unpaid overtime? >> A don't ruminate because that's >> A don't ruminate because that's >> A don't ruminate because that's preventing you, that's keeping you at preventing you, that's keeping you at preventing you, that's keeping you at work. that you can start to recover at work. that you can start to recover at work. that you can start to recover at the point that you feel psychologically the point that you feel psychologically the point that you feel psychologically detached from work. At the point that detached from work. At the point that detached from work. At the point that you stop thinking about work is when you stop thinking about work is when you stop thinking about work is when your workday actually ends. So you want your workday actually ends. So you want your workday actually ends. So you want that to happen as soon as possible. What that to happen as soon as possible. What that to happen as soon as possible. What recovery actually means is that we need recovery actually means is that we need recovery actually means is that we need to do two things. We have to rest and we to do two things. We have to rest and we to do two things. We have to rest and we have to recharge. have to recharge. have to recharge. What we tend to do though is overindex What we tend to do though is overindex What we tend to do though is overindex on the resting. You come home, you feel on the resting. You come home, you feel on the resting. You come home, you feel wiped out. I'm wiped out. I can't do wiped out. I'm wiped out. I can't do wiped out. I'm wiped out. I can't do anything. I need to slouch on the couch anything. I need to slouch on the couch anything. I need to slouch on the couch for 3 hours and you know look at for 3 hours and you know look at for 3 hours and you know look at whatever screens or doing scroll or whatever screens or doing scroll or whatever screens or doing scroll or whatever the thing is because I am whatever the thing is because I am whatever the thing is because I am tapped out. I can't do anything. Now we tapped out. I can't do anything. Now we tapped out. I can't do anything. Now we mistake mental exhaustion but physical mistake mental exhaustion but physical mistake mental exhaustion but physical exhaustion. You probably sat all day exhaustion. You probably sat all day exhaustion. You probably sat all day most people. So you're not physically most people. So you're not physically most people. So you're not physically exhausted. You just feel mentally exhausted. You just feel mentally exhausted. You just feel mentally exhausted and you're confusing the two. exhausted and you're confusing the two. exhausted and you're confusing the two. If you just rest after days like that, If you just rest after days like that, If you just rest after days like that, you will wake up still tired in the you will wake up still tired in the you will wake up still tired in the morning because you didn't deplete your morning because you didn't deplete your morning because you didn't deplete your batteries further but you didn't batteries further but you didn't batteries further but you didn't recharge them. Recharging them again, recharge them. Recharging them again, recharge them. Recharging them again, this is where the life part of the this is where the life part of the this is where the life part of the equation of the work life balance comes equation of the work life balance comes equation of the work life balance comes in is doing something that revitalizes in is doing something that revitalizes in is doing something that revitalizes you. And that's a personal thing, you. And that's a personal thing, you. And that's a personal thing, whatever that thing is for you. But none whatever that thing is for you. But none whatever that thing is for you. But none of those things happen on the couch. If of those things happen on the couch. If of those things happen on the couch. If you're athletic, you need to work out. you're athletic, you need to work out. you're athletic, you need to work out. If you're a creator, you need to do If you're a creator, you need to do If you're a creator, you need to do something creative. If you're a maker, something creative. If you're a maker, something creative. If you're a maker, you need to make. An organizer needs to you need to make. An organizer needs to you need to make. An organizer needs to organize. An extrovert needs to go and organize. An extrovert needs to go and organize. An extrovert needs to go and and and socialize or do it on the phone and and socialize or do it on the phone and and socialize or do it on the phone or do something. If you're a musician, or do something. If you're a musician, or do something. If you're a musician, 15 minutes of playing an instrument of 15 minutes of playing an instrument of 15 minutes of playing an instrument of choice or singing, whatever the thing choice or singing, whatever the thing choice or singing, whatever the thing is, is enough to kind of take you out of is, is enough to kind of take you out of is, is enough to kind of take you out of work mode and activate other parts of work mode and activate other parts of work mode and activate other parts of your personality, of your identity that your personality, of your identity that your personality, of your identity that are meaningful to you that don't get to are meaningful to you that don't get to are meaningful to you that don't get to be expressed during the workday. And so be expressed during the workday. And so be expressed during the workday. And so that's the recharging part. Now, it's that's the recharging part. Now, it's that's the recharging part. Now, it's very difficult. That threshold of very difficult. That threshold of very difficult. That threshold of getting yourself off the couch to do the getting yourself off the couch to do the getting yourself off the couch to do the thing is difficult. But everyone knows thing is difficult. But everyone knows thing is difficult. But everyone knows that when you're able to do it, you come that when you're able to do it, you come that when you're able to do it, you come back with a second wind. You come back back with a second wind. You come back back with a second wind. You come back having expended energy on something and having expended energy on something and having expended energy on something and yet you feel more energized than before yet you feel more energized than before yet you feel more energized than before you left because the ROI on that is you left because the ROI on that is you left because the ROI on that is huge. So, it's both resting and huge. So, it's both resting and huge. So, it's both resting and recharging. You can't recharge every day recharging. You can't recharge every day recharging. You can't recharge every day because you got home late, etc. You had because you got home late, etc. You had because you got home late, etc. You had duties with kids, what what have you. duties with kids, what what have you. duties with kids, what what have you. Work it in during the week. Find the 15 Work it in during the week. Find the 15 Work it in during the week. Find the 15 minutes here, the half an hour there to minutes here, the half an hour there to minutes here, the half an hour there to do the things that recharge you do the things that recharge you do the things that recharge you mentally, emotionally in terms of your mentally, emotionally in terms of your mentally, emotionally in terms of your personality and identity that give personality and identity that give personality and identity that give oxygen to those aspects of yourself that oxygen to those aspects of yourself that oxygen to those aspects of yourself that are starving for it that are meaningful are starving for it that are meaningful are starving for it that are meaningful and important to you. That will help and important to you. That will help and important to you. That will help recovery way more than just doom recovery way more than just doom recovery way more than just doom scrolling on the screen. scrolling on the screen. scrolling on the screen. >> So again, it just comes back to your >> So again, it just comes back to your >> So again, it just comes back to your main one of your main thesis thesis is main one of your main thesis thesis is main one of your main thesis thesis is is that we need taking care of is that we need taking care of is that we need taking care of ourselves, ensuring our own happiness ourselves, ensuring our own happiness ourselves, ensuring our own happiness and joy. This is not a nice to have. It and joy. This is not a nice to have. It and joy. This is not a nice to have. It really is part of of succeeding. really is part of of succeeding. really is part of of succeeding. >> Yes. And and this is also why why I >> Yes. And and this is also why why I >> Yes. And and this is also why why I wrote the book because um a lot of us we wrote the book because um a lot of us we wrote the book because um a lot of us we can't change our boss. We can't change can't change our boss. We can't change can't change our boss. We can't change our workplace. We know we might feel our workplace. We know we might feel our workplace. We know we might feel stuck. This is the boss I have, the stuck. This is the boss I have, the stuck. This is the boss I have, the workplace I have, the job I have. But workplace I have, the job I have. But workplace I have, the job I have. But there's so much more we can do when it there's so much more we can do when it there's so much more we can do when it comes to how we manage ourselves. And comes to how we manage ourselves. And comes to how we manage ourselves. And the delta we can create both in our the delta we can create both in our the delta we can create both in our stress levels and in our quality of life stress levels and in our quality of life stress levels and in our quality of life are significant. There's just a lot we are significant. There's just a lot we are significant. There's just a lot we can do more in terms of just managing can do more in terms of just managing can do more in terms of just managing ourselves that would make a big big ourselves that would make a big big ourselves that would make a big big difference and that everyone is difference and that everyone is difference and that everyone is empowered to do. empowered to do. empowered to do. >> There's a section in your book about how >> There's a section in your book about how >> There's a section in your book about how to avoid footin mouth disease. What's to avoid footin mouth disease. What's to avoid footin mouth disease. What's that about? that about? that about? >> There are two aspects to emotional >> There are two aspects to emotional >> There are two aspects to emotional intelligence. There's the emotional intelligence. There's the emotional intelligence. There's the emotional intelligence we have and there's the intelligence we have and there's the intelligence we have and there's the emotional intelligence that we actually emotional intelligence that we actually emotional intelligence that we actually use, how we apply it. And there are a use, how we apply it. And there are a use, how we apply it. And there are a lot of people who have it but when lot of people who have it but when lot of people who have it but when they're stressed out or they're not they're stressed out or they're not they're stressed out or they're not being mindful, they're not applying it. being mindful, they're not applying it. being mindful, they're not applying it. And there therein is the foot in mouth And there therein is the foot in mouth And there therein is the foot in mouth disease. They will go and actually tell disease. They will go and actually tell disease. They will go and actually tell their boss what they think because it their boss what they think because it their boss what they think because it didn't take 5 minutes to calm down didn't take 5 minutes to calm down didn't take 5 minutes to calm down before that meeting or they will they before that meeting or they will they before that meeting or they will they get so stirred up they go and look for get so stirred up they go and look for get so stirred up they go and look for social support from someone but they're social support from someone but they're social support from someone but they're not communicating clearly enough what not communicating clearly enough what not communicating clearly enough what they need from that person. So the they need from that person. So the they need from that person. So the person doesn't understand so they get person doesn't understand so they get person doesn't understand so they get angry at the coworker and that ends up angry at the coworker and that ends up angry at the coworker and that ends up in a conflict in terms of the support in a conflict in terms of the support in a conflict in terms of the support that they wanted. So, you know, the foot that they wanted. So, you know, the foot that they wanted. So, you know, the foot and mouth disease is this idea of that, and mouth disease is this idea of that, and mouth disease is this idea of that, you know, like when you are you have to you know, like when you are you have to you know, like when you are you have to manage your emotional uh uh energies manage your emotional uh uh energies manage your emotional uh uh energies during the day and make sure that you're during the day and make sure that you're during the day and make sure that you're not getting depleted because those not getting depleted because those not getting depleted because those emotional intelligence whoopsies can end emotional intelligence whoopsies can end emotional intelligence whoopsies can end up costing you a lot because you can up costing you a lot because you can up costing you a lot because you can really make mistakes both politically, really make mistakes both politically, really make mistakes both politically, interpersonally interpersonally interpersonally that that in terms of how you manage up that that in terms of how you manage up that that in terms of how you manage up and down and sideways um that can end up and down and sideways um that can end up and down and sideways um that can end up costing you. So in other words, doing costing you. So in other words, doing costing you. So in other words, doing all the things we've been talking about all the things we've been talking about all the things we've been talking about today, taking care of yourself so that today, taking care of yourself so that today, taking care of yourself so that you have the resources to function you have the resources to function you have the resources to function effectively can just prevent you from effectively can just prevent you from effectively can just prevent you from doing stupid you later regret. doing stupid you later regret. doing stupid you later regret. >> Well said. Yes. >> Well said. Yes. >> Well said. Yes. >> You have a concept as a pair of concepts >> You have a concept as a pair of concepts >> You have a concept as a pair of concepts stress minds and uh speed bumps. What do stress minds and uh speed bumps. What do stress minds and uh speed bumps. What do you mean by that? you mean by that? you mean by that? >> This comes from when I ask people how >> This comes from when I ask people how >> This comes from when I ask people how stressful is your job? you know like you stressful is your job? you know like you stressful is your job? you know like you know what what percent of your job is know what what percent of your job is know what what percent of your job is highly stressful. Uh most people will highly stressful. Uh most people will highly stressful. Uh most people will say to me 90%. 80%. It's all very say to me 90%. 80%. It's all very say to me 90%. 80%. It's all very stressful all the time and it's a very stressful all the time and it's a very stressful all the time and it's a very problematic framing to have because problematic framing to have because problematic framing to have because first of all it's not true. I mean it's first of all it's not true. I mean it's first of all it's not true. I mean it's just truly there are very few jobs in just truly there are very few jobs in just truly there are very few jobs in which that's true that it's 80% that which that's true that it's 80% that which that's true that it's 80% that it's 90%. You have the boring meetings it's 90%. You have the boring meetings it's 90%. You have the boring meetings you have the nothing burgers you have you have the nothing burgers you have you have the nothing burgers you have the wrote tasks that are you know like the wrote tasks that are you know like the wrote tasks that are you know like are not stressful one way or the other. are not stressful one way or the other. are not stressful one way or the other. But when you frame your job as stressful But when you frame your job as stressful But when you frame your job as stressful all the time, what it does is it puts all the time, what it does is it puts all the time, what it does is it puts you into this fight orflight mode all you into this fight orflight mode all you into this fight orflight mode all the time because your mind is like, I the time because your mind is like, I the time because your mind is like, I guess it's stressful all the time. I guess it's stressful all the time. I guess it's stressful all the time. I need to be ready incoming any given need to be ready incoming any given need to be ready incoming any given moment. So you're actually much more moment. So you're actually much more moment. So you're actually much more likely to be in fight or flight to be in likely to be in fight or flight to be in likely to be in fight or flight to be in a highly activated stress mode a highly activated stress mode a highly activated stress mode throughout throughout the whole day to throughout throughout the whole day to throughout throughout the whole day to think about your job like that think about your job like that think about your job like that afterwards when you get home. It's such afterwards when you get home. It's such afterwards when you get home. It's such a stressful day tomorrow because you a stressful day tomorrow because you a stressful day tomorrow because you have this one meeting that's difficult. have this one meeting that's difficult. have this one meeting that's difficult. It's not the whole day. So the stress It's not the whole day. So the stress It's not the whole day. So the stress minds is an exercise to help people find minds is an exercise to help people find minds is an exercise to help people find where the actual stressful parts of the where the actual stressful parts of the where the actual stressful parts of the job are and what percentage of their day job are and what percentage of their day job are and what percentage of their day or their week or their month those or their week or their month those or their week or their month those actually comprise. And usually people actually comprise. And usually people actually comprise. And usually people find it's 10%, it's 20%, in difficult find it's 10%, it's 20%, in difficult find it's 10%, it's 20%, in difficult jobs it's even 50%. But it's not 100%. jobs it's even 50%. But it's not 100%. jobs it's even 50%. But it's not 100%. And when you know where the stress minds And when you know where the stress minds And when you know where the stress minds are, where the highly intense and are, where the highly intense and are, where the highly intense and stressful moments are, those you can stressful moments are, those you can stressful moments are, those you can start to problem solve ahead of time. a start to problem solve ahead of time. a start to problem solve ahead of time. a by using emotional intelligence to kind by using emotional intelligence to kind by using emotional intelligence to kind of raise your coping mechanisms before of raise your coping mechanisms before of raise your coping mechanisms before you go into the nasty meeting or by you go into the nasty meeting or by you go into the nasty meeting or by working in breaks or doing something you working in breaks or doing something you working in breaks or doing something you know getting support calling a loved one know getting support calling a loved one know getting support calling a loved one after a difficult thing so you can you after a difficult thing so you can you after a difficult thing so you can you know get a breather or taking a walk know get a breather or taking a walk know get a breather or taking a walk around the block you can you can around the block you can you can around the block you can you can navigate that you can see what things navigate that you can see what things navigate that you can see what things might you might be able to delegate you might you might be able to delegate you might you might be able to delegate you can you know where you want to minimize can you know where you want to minimize can you know where you want to minimize something you know like in other words something you know like in other words something you know like in other words if it's a meeting you have to have but if it's a meeting you have to have but if it's a meeting you have to have but you let them initiate the meeting it's you let them initiate the meeting it's you let them initiate the meeting it's 60 minutes but you initiate it make it 60 minutes but you initiate it make it 60 minutes but you initiate it make it 45 they won't complain you know like you 45 they won't complain you know like you 45 they won't complain you know like you can do things to help you know manage can do things to help you know manage can do things to help you know manage that once you know where the stress that once you know where the stress that once you know where the stress minds are. Speed bump refers to minds are. Speed bump refers to minds are. Speed bump refers to something else. Those are the kinds of something else. Those are the kinds of something else. Those are the kinds of typical mistakes uh we make in the job typical mistakes uh we make in the job typical mistakes uh we make in the job when we're on autopilot because when we when we're on autopilot because when we when we're on autopilot because when we have a stressful job again we're on have a stressful job again we're on have a stressful job again we're on autopilot all the time. We just put our autopilot all the time. We just put our autopilot all the time. We just put our head down, go from task to task, meeting head down, go from task to task, meeting head down, go from task to task, meeting to meeting, thing to thing without to meeting, thing to thing without to meeting, thing to thing without actually raising our heads and being actually raising our heads and being actually raising our heads and being more thoughtful, mindful, intentional, more thoughtful, mindful, intentional, more thoughtful, mindful, intentional, and deliberate about how we should be and deliberate about how we should be and deliberate about how we should be managing ourselves in those moments. And managing ourselves in those moments. And managing ourselves in those moments. And some people have blind spots. Some some people have blind spots. Some some people have blind spots. Some people it's a lateness. It's time people it's a lateness. It's time people it's a lateness. It's time management. I always use this example management. I always use this example management. I always use this example like how is it you've had a time like how is it you've had a time like how is it you've had a time management problem all your life and you management problem all your life and you management problem all your life and you haven't figured it out? Like you come to haven't figured it out? Like you come to haven't figured it out? Like you come to work every day, it's the same route. How work every day, it's the same route. How work every day, it's the same route. How can you constantly be late? It's a can you constantly be late? It's a can you constantly be late? It's a puzzle of time. what goes wrong there puzzle of time. what goes wrong there puzzle of time. what goes wrong there that you can't figure it out, you know, that you can't figure it out, you know, that you can't figure it out, you know, and there's all and they're blind spots. and there's all and they're blind spots. and there's all and they're blind spots. That's what goes wrong. So the speed That's what goes wrong. So the speed That's what goes wrong. So the speed bumps are about ways to find and bumps are about ways to find and bumps are about ways to find and mitigate the blind spots you have, mitigate the blind spots you have, mitigate the blind spots you have, whether it's, you know, with with time whether it's, you know, with with time whether it's, you know, with with time management, whether it's with ignoring management, whether it's with ignoring management, whether it's with ignoring politics because you want to be above politics because you want to be above politics because you want to be above it. I I don't want to be in that it. I I don't want to be in that it. I I don't want to be in that childish, you know, like schoolyard childish, you know, like schoolyard childish, you know, like schoolyard politics of the job. But if childish politics of the job. But if childish politics of the job. But if childish schoolyard politics are going on around schoolyard politics are going on around schoolyard politics are going on around you, you can't hold yourself above the you, you can't hold yourself above the you, you can't hold yourself above the fray. You're going to be swirled into fray. You're going to be swirled into fray. You're going to be swirled into it. Then if you don't understand what's it. Then if you don't understand what's it. Then if you don't understand what's going on, you're going to be victimized going on, you're going to be victimized going on, you're going to be victimized by it, you know. So all all these kind by it, you know. So all all these kind by it, you know. So all all these kind of blind spots we have, there's a list of blind spots we have, there's a list of blind spots we have, there's a list of them and what they do, the damage of them and what they do, the damage of them and what they do, the damage they can cause, and and these are the they can cause, and and these are the they can cause, and and these are the speed bumps you need to initiate in speed bumps you need to initiate in speed bumps you need to initiate in order to prevent them from tripping you order to prevent them from tripping you order to prevent them from tripping you up. up. up. >> How do we not let the stress of work >> How do we not let the stress of work >> How do we not let the stress of work impact our personal relationships? impact our personal relationships? impact our personal relationships? >> So that was a really tricky one. You >> So that was a really tricky one. You >> So that was a really tricky one. You know, there's research that shows, for know, there's research that shows, for know, there's research that shows, for example, that when somebody's example, that when somebody's example, that when somebody's chronically stressed at work, their chronically stressed at work, their chronically stressed at work, their partner can start to develop symptoms of partner can start to develop symptoms of partner can start to develop symptoms of burnout. There's research that shows burnout. There's research that shows burnout. There's research that shows that if you're really stressed at work, that if you're really stressed at work, that if you're really stressed at work, your partner will start to lose their your partner will start to lose their your partner will start to lose their sex drive, too. Because, by the way, you sex drive, too. Because, by the way, you sex drive, too. Because, by the way, you come home tense and preoccupied and and come home tense and preoccupied and and come home tense and preoccupied and and so irritable that you can roast a so irritable that you can roast a so irritable that you can roast a marshmallow on you, then that's not very marshmallow on you, then that's not very marshmallow on you, then that's not very appealing to your partner to want to appealing to your partner to want to appealing to your partner to want to have sex with you. So um and it creates have sex with you. So um and it creates have sex with you. So um and it creates emotional distance and without the emotional distance and without the emotional distance and without the emotional closeness intimacy suffers. So emotional closeness intimacy suffers. So emotional closeness intimacy suffers. So there all these ways that we bring home there all these ways that we bring home there all these ways that we bring home work stresses, pressures, upsets, work stresses, pressures, upsets, work stresses, pressures, upsets, distress and we think we don't we try distress and we think we don't we try distress and we think we don't we try most of us try to not let it spill over most of us try to not let it spill over most of us try to not let it spill over and affect our families and affect our and affect our families and affect our and affect our families and affect our loved ones but we can't be successful loved ones but we can't be successful loved ones but we can't be successful because you know a we're not that great because you know a we're not that great because you know a we're not that great at turning it off. You know we can't at turning it off. You know we can't at turning it off. You know we can't switch off. We can't be in a in a the switch off. We can't be in a in a the switch off. We can't be in a in a the modern day battlefield of a workplace modern day battlefield of a workplace modern day battlefield of a workplace and then come home and suddenly be and then come home and suddenly be and then come home and suddenly be chill. I mean, some people can, but it's chill. I mean, some people can, but it's chill. I mean, some people can, but it's rare. Like, you know, you actually have rare. Like, you know, you actually have rare. Like, you know, you actually have to be mindful. You have actually to do to be mindful. You have actually to do to be mindful. You have actually to do things to help you deescalate. You have things to help you deescalate. You have things to help you deescalate. You have to be aware of how the tension is to be aware of how the tension is to be aware of how the tension is affecting your family. Like, I've affecting your family. Like, I've affecting your family. Like, I've experienced it myself and I've seen experienced it myself and I've seen experienced it myself and I've seen other people that they come home and other people that they come home and other people that they come home and they're so preoccupied still with with they're so preoccupied still with with they're so preoccupied still with with work. is still in the fog of war that work. is still in the fog of war that work. is still in the fog of war that their six-year-old runs up to give mommy their six-year-old runs up to give mommy their six-year-old runs up to give mommy a hug and mommy tenses because she's a hug and mommy tenses because she's a hug and mommy tenses because she's just not ready for it yet. And the kids just not ready for it yet. And the kids just not ready for it yet. And the kids can tell and the partners can tell and can tell and the partners can tell and can tell and the partners can tell and they don't mean to tense up like that, they don't mean to tense up like that, they don't mean to tense up like that, but that's where they are. They're but that's where they are. They're but that's where they are. They're sitting there, they're checked out, sitting there, they're checked out, sitting there, they're checked out, they're like, so we have to be aware of they're like, so we have to be aware of they're like, so we have to be aware of how profoundly that barrier again has how profoundly that barrier again has how profoundly that barrier again has has been eroded between work and home has been eroded between work and home has been eroded between work and home and how we can bring all those and how we can bring all those and how we can bring all those pressures, stresses, distresses home pressures, stresses, distresses home pressures, stresses, distresses home with us. and how we actually have to be with us. and how we actually have to be with us. and how we actually have to be very mindful and really make efforts to very mindful and really make efforts to very mindful and really make efforts to shield our family and ourselves cuz shield our family and ourselves cuz shield our family and ourselves cuz we're not doing ourselves a favor either we're not doing ourselves a favor either we're not doing ourselves a favor either from doing that and be much more from doing that and be much more from doing that and be much more mindful, intentional, and kind of take mindful, intentional, and kind of take mindful, intentional, and kind of take the steps that we need to to try and the steps that we need to to try and the steps that we need to to try and create a barrier that that is less there create a barrier that that is less there create a barrier that that is less there than it used to be in the past. than it used to be in the past. than it used to be in the past. >> One thing that has been helpful for me >> One thing that has been helpful for me >> One thing that has been helpful for me is really putting my phone away early is really putting my phone away early is really putting my phone away early and not going back to it. and not going back to it. and not going back to it. >> I think ideally that would be absolutely >> I think ideally that would be absolutely >> I think ideally that would be absolutely lovely. It's so hard for people because lovely. It's so hard for people because lovely. It's so hard for people because for a lot of people their social life is for a lot of people their social life is for a lot of people their social life is on their phone too. So they're cutting on their phone too. So they're cutting on their phone too. So they're cutting off the friend who's texting them with a off the friend who's texting them with a off the friend who's texting them with a you know a funny thing they wanted to you know a funny thing they wanted to you know a funny thing they wanted to tell or the parent who's trying to reach tell or the parent who's trying to reach tell or the parent who's trying to reach them or whatever the thing is. So like them or whatever the thing is. So like them or whatever the thing is. So like it's great that you do that. I wish more it's great that you do that. I wish more it's great that you do that. I wish more people would do that. It is very very people would do that. It is very very people would do that. It is very very difficult for people but you can have difficult for people but you can have difficult for people but you can have dinner free uh phone free dinners. You dinner free uh phone free dinners. You dinner free uh phone free dinners. You can't have like I always say to people can't have like I always say to people can't have like I always say to people if your plan is to sit with your partner if your plan is to sit with your partner if your plan is to sit with your partner and watch a show on TV, treat it like and watch a show on TV, treat it like and watch a show on TV, treat it like you're actually at the movies and turn you're actually at the movies and turn you're actually at the movies and turn your phone off. You're allowed to do it. your phone off. You're allowed to do it. your phone off. You're allowed to do it. You're allowed to go to the movies. You're allowed to go to the movies. You're allowed to go to the movies. You're allowed to go to Broadway. You're You're allowed to go to Broadway. You're You're allowed to go to Broadway. You're allowed to go to a show. You're allowed allowed to go to a show. You're allowed allowed to go to a show. You're allowed to have your phone off. You're allowed to have your phone off. You're allowed to have your phone off. You're allowed to live. So, but do it in that way. We to live. So, but do it in that way. We to live. So, but do it in that way. We talked earlier about how one might deal talked earlier about how one might deal talked earlier about how one might deal with one's boss, uh, an unreasonable with one's boss, uh, an unreasonable with one's boss, uh, an unreasonable boss who's angry that we didn't get back boss who's angry that we didn't get back boss who's angry that we didn't get back to them, uh, within 15 minutes on a to them, uh, within 15 minutes on a to them, uh, within 15 minutes on a Saturday. Are there other things to say Saturday. Are there other things to say Saturday. Are there other things to say about how to set boundaries at work so about how to set boundaries at work so about how to set boundaries at work so we can take care of ourselves? we can take care of ourselves? we can take care of ourselves? >> Yeah. Well, it depends of who you're >> Yeah. Well, it depends of who you're >> Yeah. Well, it depends of who you're setting them with. If it's with a setting them with. If it's with a setting them with. If it's with a co-orker, that's that's one thing. If co-orker, that's that's one thing. If co-orker, that's that's one thing. If it's with a boss, it's another. it. You it's with a boss, it's another. it. You it's with a boss, it's another. it. You really need to look at the culture of really need to look at the culture of really need to look at the culture of your workplace and what is customary and your workplace and what is customary and your workplace and what is customary and what is tolerated. There are, as you what is tolerated. There are, as you what is tolerated. There are, as you said, workplaces and I'm sure some of said, workplaces and I'm sure some of said, workplaces and I'm sure some of your listeners are working in them in your listeners are working in them in your listeners are working in them in which there is no tolerance to push back which there is no tolerance to push back which there is no tolerance to push back against the boss in any way. It will against the boss in any way. It will against the boss in any way. It will absolutely put you in the next round of absolutely put you in the next round of absolutely put you in the next round of of cuts, either there or it'll interfere of cuts, either there or it'll interfere of cuts, either there or it'll interfere with your chances of a promotion, of with your chances of a promotion, of with your chances of a promotion, of advancement of those things. So, so advancement of those things. So, so advancement of those things. So, so there are first of all individual bosses there are first of all individual bosses there are first of all individual bosses who are who are that sensitive to any who are who are that sensitive to any who are who are that sensitive to any kind of uh uh you know boundary setting kind of uh uh you know boundary setting kind of uh uh you know boundary setting cultures in which that will not be cultures in which that will not be cultures in which that will not be tolerated. You can still do it, but you tolerated. You can still do it, but you tolerated. You can still do it, but you have to be smart about it. Again, have to be smart about it. Again, have to be smart about it. Again, counting keystrokes, not that counting keystrokes, not that counting keystrokes, not that notwithstanding, I have a section in the notwithstanding, I have a section in the notwithstanding, I have a section in the book which is a homage to you and your book which is a homage to you and your book which is a homage to you and your podcast called, it's called 10% podcast called, it's called 10% podcast called, it's called 10% slackier. And that is that when people slackier. And that is that when people slackier. And that is that when people uh truly just a homage and it's when uh truly just a homage and it's when uh truly just a homage and it's when people are working 60, 70, 80 hours a people are working 60, 70, 80 hours a people are working 60, 70, 80 hours a week, nobody will notice if they take week, nobody will notice if they take week, nobody will notice if they take 10% off. Unless again they're being 10% off. Unless again they're being 10% off. Unless again they're being monitored in their way. People won't monitored in their way. People won't monitored in their way. People won't notice. They don't know what they're notice. They don't know what they're notice. They don't know what they're doing on the weekend. They don't know doing on the weekend. They don't know doing on the weekend. They don't know that took them a little bit longer that took them a little bit longer that took them a little bit longer because they actually took the afternoon because they actually took the afternoon because they actually took the afternoon to go to the kids' game. And so, you to go to the kids' game. And so, you to go to the kids' game. And so, you know, like again, if you're working 35 know, like again, if you're working 35 know, like again, if you're working 35 hours a week, that's harder to do. But hours a week, that's harder to do. But hours a week, that's harder to do. But when you're overworking, when you're when you're overworking, when you're when you're overworking, when you're over functioning, when you're putting in over functioning, when you're putting in over functioning, when you're putting in all that facetime, pulling back a bit is all that facetime, pulling back a bit is all that facetime, pulling back a bit is something that is much less likely to be something that is much less likely to be something that is much less likely to be noticed. And if you pull back and you noticed. And if you pull back and you noticed. And if you pull back and you use it wisely, you will have the same use it wisely, you will have the same use it wisely, you will have the same work product and your productivity will work product and your productivity will work product and your productivity will remain the same because you're being remain the same because you're being remain the same because you're being wiser about how you're using your mental wiser about how you're using your mental wiser about how you're using your mental resources and your cognitive resources. resources and your cognitive resources. resources and your cognitive resources. You'll be hearing from my lawyers about You'll be hearing from my lawyers about You'll be hearing from my lawyers about the copyright infringement, but other the copyright infringement, but other the copyright infringement, but other than that, I love 10% slack here. You than that, I love 10% slack here. You than that, I love 10% slack here. You also talk uh in the book about something also talk uh in the book about something also talk uh in the book about something we can do when we have the Sunday we can do when we have the Sunday we can do when we have the Sunday scaries, when Sunday is being hijacked scaries, when Sunday is being hijacked scaries, when Sunday is being hijacked by our fears about going back to work on by our fears about going back to work on by our fears about going back to work on Monday morning, Monday morning, Monday morning, >> right? Right? And for many of us, and >> right? Right? And for many of us, and >> right? Right? And for many of us, and you don't even necessarily have to have you don't even necessarily have to have you don't even necessarily have to have a toxic work environment or a difficult a toxic work environment or a difficult a toxic work environment or a difficult job. Weekends, when you use them wisely, job. Weekends, when you use them wisely, job. Weekends, when you use them wisely, you are rested, you're more relaxed, you you are rested, you're more relaxed, you you are rested, you're more relaxed, you have more autonomy to choose and do the have more autonomy to choose and do the have more autonomy to choose and do the things you want to do. And then Monday things you want to do. And then Monday things you want to do. And then Monday comes and you're back in an expectation comes and you're back in an expectation comes and you're back in an expectation of of having to function a certain way, of of having to function a certain way, of of having to function a certain way, to work a certain way. Everything gets to work a certain way. Everything gets to work a certain way. Everything gets much much harder at that point. Now, much much harder at that point. Now, much much harder at that point. Now, here's the here's the interesting part. here's the here's the interesting part. here's the here's the interesting part. Why that happens is because again our Why that happens is because again our Why that happens is because again our unconscious mind, not self-aware, but unconscious mind, not self-aware, but unconscious mind, not self-aware, but trying to be helpful, sees that the next trying to be helpful, sees that the next trying to be helpful, sees that the next thing in the queue is work. And it its thing in the queue is work. And it its thing in the queue is work. And it its job is to prepare you for challenges. job is to prepare you for challenges. job is to prepare you for challenges. And so be, hey, hey, work's coming, like And so be, hey, hey, work's coming, like And so be, hey, hey, work's coming, like winter's coming, Game of Thrones, work's winter's coming, Game of Thrones, work's winter's coming, Game of Thrones, work's coming, work's coming, but it'll start coming, work's coming, but it'll start coming, work's coming, but it'll start that Sunday afternoon. And that tension that Sunday afternoon. And that tension that Sunday afternoon. And that tension and dread, oh, the work week, work week and dread, oh, the work week, work week and dread, oh, the work week, work week is will really interfere and it'll it'll is will really interfere and it'll it'll is will really interfere and it'll it'll put you into a bad mood. It'll really put you into a bad mood. It'll really put you into a bad mood. It'll really interfere with your ability to relax, to interfere with your ability to relax, to interfere with your ability to relax, to enjoy the rest of your Sunday, etc. So, enjoy the rest of your Sunday, etc. So, enjoy the rest of your Sunday, etc. So, but your that's your unconscious mind but your that's your unconscious mind but your that's your unconscious mind warning you that that's the next thing warning you that that's the next thing warning you that that's the next thing in the queue. So, one thing you can do in the queue. So, one thing you can do in the queue. So, one thing you can do is you can layer something before that is you can layer something before that is you can layer something before that in the queue. If the first thing you do in the queue. If the first thing you do in the queue. If the first thing you do on Monday morning, something you enjoy on Monday morning, something you enjoy on Monday morning, something you enjoy and you get up half an hour earlier to and you get up half an hour earlier to and you get up half an hour earlier to do it because I'm going to keep working do it because I'm going to keep working do it because I'm going to keep working on that writing project I really enjoy. on that writing project I really enjoy. on that writing project I really enjoy. I'm going to have a quick coffee or I'm going to have a quick coffee or I'm going to have a quick coffee or breakfast with a friend that I haven't breakfast with a friend that I haven't breakfast with a friend that I haven't seen. I'm going to work out cuz I love seen. I'm going to work out cuz I love seen. I'm going to work out cuz I love doing that before work. It always you're doing that before work. It always you're doing that before work. It always you're doing something. Oh, I'm wore a new out. doing something. Oh, I'm wore a new out. doing something. Oh, I'm wore a new out. I bought a new outfit. I'm going to wear I bought a new outfit. I'm going to wear I bought a new outfit. I'm going to wear that outfit to work and kind of look that outfit to work and kind of look that outfit to work and kind of look forward to people complimenting me when forward to people complimenting me when forward to people complimenting me when I get to the office or whatever the I get to the office or whatever the I get to the office or whatever the thing is. But if you schedule something thing is. But if you schedule something thing is. But if you schedule something like that on the Monday morning and like that on the Monday morning and like that on the Monday morning and that's what you tell your brain you're that's what you tell your brain you're that's what you tell your brain you're looking forward to, can't wait for looking forward to, can't wait for looking forward to, can't wait for Monday morning, can't wait to show up Monday morning, can't wait to show up Monday morning, can't wait to show up for the outfit, can't wait to see my for the outfit, can't wait to see my for the outfit, can't wait to see my friend, can't wait to, you know, to to friend, can't wait to, you know, to to friend, can't wait to, you know, to to do that workout or whatever the thing do that workout or whatever the thing do that workout or whatever the thing would be to work on my project. Then would be to work on my project. Then would be to work on my project. Then your brain is like, okay, but what comes your brain is like, okay, but what comes your brain is like, okay, but what comes after that? The next thing in the queue after that? The next thing in the queue after that? The next thing in the queue is that thing you're looking forward to. is that thing you're looking forward to. is that thing you're looking forward to. it'll have a little less reason to sound it'll have a little less reason to sound it'll have a little less reason to sound the alarm Monday afternoon or Sunday the alarm Monday afternoon or Sunday the alarm Monday afternoon or Sunday afternoon or Sunday evening because you afternoon or Sunday evening because you afternoon or Sunday evening because you actually schedule something and you're actually schedule something and you're actually schedule something and you're making a big deal out of it in your making a big deal out of it in your making a big deal out of it in your head. And again, that's the unconscious head. And again, that's the unconscious head. And again, that's the unconscious mind whisperer thing of like you can set mind whisperer thing of like you can set mind whisperer thing of like you can set up your unconscious mind to think things up your unconscious mind to think things up your unconscious mind to think things by doing something like that and me, oh, by doing something like that and me, oh, by doing something like that and me, oh, I'm so excited about this. I'm so I'm so excited about this. I'm so I'm so excited about this. I'm so excited. And you tell people around you, excited. And you tell people around you, excited. And you tell people around you, I'm so excited to see my friend Monday I'm so excited to see my friend Monday I'm so excited to see my friend Monday morning first thing. And that's what morning first thing. And that's what morning first thing. And that's what you're going that's that's apparently you're going that's that's apparently you're going that's that's apparently the next thing. So, we're good. the next thing. So, we're good. the next thing. So, we're good. >> As we wing toward the end of our time >> As we wing toward the end of our time >> As we wing toward the end of our time together, is there something you were together, is there something you were together, is there something you were hoping we would get to that we haven't? hoping we would get to that we haven't? hoping we would get to that we haven't? >> There's one other topic that no one asks >> There's one other topic that no one asks >> There's one other topic that no one asks me about cuz it's depressing and me about cuz it's depressing and me about cuz it's depressing and difficult and uh we don't necessarily difficult and uh we don't necessarily difficult and uh we don't necessarily need to get to it because it's need to get to it because it's need to get to it because it's depressing and difficult. depressing and difficult. depressing and difficult. >> This show is all about the depressing >> This show is all about the depressing >> This show is all about the depressing and the difficult. Tell us. and the difficult. Tell us. and the difficult. Tell us. >> It's about the moral decline that we >> It's about the moral decline that we >> It's about the moral decline that we suffer in the workplace, the ethical suffer in the workplace, the ethical suffer in the workplace, the ethical decline. There's a process that happens decline. There's a process that happens decline. There's a process that happens to us when we're in unethical workplaces to us when we're in unethical workplaces to us when we're in unethical workplaces or workplaces that are very toxic and or workplaces that are very toxic and or workplaces that are very toxic and there's certain behaviors that we see there's certain behaviors that we see there's certain behaviors that we see all around us. They become normalized all around us. They become normalized all around us. They become normalized and we will find ourselves slowly and we will find ourselves slowly and we will find ourselves slowly drifting into doing things that we would drifting into doing things that we would drifting into doing things that we would never have done otherwise. This is how never have done otherwise. This is how never have done otherwise. This is how you end up with with with Volkswagen you end up with with with Volkswagen you end up with with with Volkswagen executives going to jail for the executives going to jail for the executives going to jail for the emissions scandal. This is how you you emissions scandal. This is how you you emissions scandal. This is how you you you end up with 5,000 employees, I think you end up with 5,000 employees, I think you end up with 5,000 employees, I think it was Wells Fargo, going, you know, it was Wells Fargo, going, you know, it was Wells Fargo, going, you know, like getting fired because they opened like getting fired because they opened like getting fired because they opened they falsified accounts. Now, they did they falsified accounts. Now, they did they falsified accounts. Now, they did it because the pressures on them to it because the pressures on them to it because the pressures on them to produce was so intense. Like, you open produce was so intense. Like, you open produce was so intense. Like, you open this number of accounts or you're going this number of accounts or you're going this number of accounts or you're going to get fired. They're like, well, the to get fired. They're like, well, the to get fired. They're like, well, the only way to do that is to kind of open only way to do that is to kind of open only way to do that is to kind of open false accounts. So, there's often these false accounts. So, there's often these false accounts. So, there's often these pressures, but you end up often doing pressures, but you end up often doing pressures, but you end up often doing things that you would never do. like you things that you would never do. like you things that you would never do. like you you you can like have it out with a you you can like have it out with a you you can like have it out with a coworker and say the kinds of things to coworker and say the kinds of things to coworker and say the kinds of things to them that you would never say to a them that you would never say to a them that you would never say to a neighbor, you know, because that's the neighbor, you know, because that's the neighbor, you know, because that's the culture in that workplace of screaming culture in that workplace of screaming culture in that workplace of screaming and put downs and this and a lot of our and put downs and this and a lot of our and put downs and this and a lot of our ethics can really drift without us ethics can really drift without us ethics can really drift without us realizing how much and you know more realizing how much and you know more realizing how much and you know more common in certain industries, more common in certain industries, more common in certain industries, more common in certain workplaces based on common in certain workplaces based on common in certain workplaces based on the culture. But it's amazing about how the culture. But it's amazing about how the culture. But it's amazing about how morality can really get challenged and morality can really get challenged and morality can really get challenged and that we can fall into this cuz every and that we can fall into this cuz every and that we can fall into this cuz every and sometimes like oh well if we don't do sometimes like oh well if we don't do sometimes like oh well if we don't do this we're selling this product if we this we're selling this product if we this we're selling this product if we don't exaggerate the ability of the don't exaggerate the ability of the don't exaggerate the ability of the product or overstate these things or product or overstate these things or product or overstate these things or like then we're going to fall behind in like then we're going to fall behind in like then we're going to fall behind in sales we're not going to get the bonuses sales we're not going to get the bonuses sales we're not going to get the bonuses everyone else is doing it why am I the everyone else is doing it why am I the everyone else is doing it why am I the schmuck that's not you know like we we schmuck that's not you know like we we schmuck that's not you know like we we find ways to justify it but it gets to find ways to justify it but it gets to find ways to justify it but it gets to extreme places that's why people can end extreme places that's why people can end extreme places that's why people can end up in workplaces where they're like up in workplaces where they're like up in workplaces where they're like selling you know whatever rubbish to selling you know whatever rubbish to selling you know whatever rubbish to people who don't need it and they're people who don't need it and they're people who don't need it and they're actually joyful about ah there's another actually joyful about ah there's another actually joyful about ah there's another sucker just bought things they didn't sucker just bought things they didn't sucker just bought things they didn't start thinking people are suckers but start thinking people are suckers but start thinking people are suckers but they got indoctrinated into it by this they got indoctrinated into it by this they got indoctrinated into it by this moral disinhibition that happens moral disinhibition that happens moral disinhibition that happens disengagement that that happens in which disengagement that that happens in which disengagement that that happens in which our moral compass really gets untethered our moral compass really gets untethered our moral compass really gets untethered and over time we we you know things and over time we we you know things and over time we we you know things become more and more and more normalized become more and more and more normalized become more and more and more normalized everyone we around us is doing it we everyone we around us is doing it we everyone we around us is doing it we begin to do it we might even benefit begin to do it we might even benefit begin to do it we might even benefit from it and and that's a danger from it and and that's a danger from it and and that's a danger In all kinds of workplaces, in the small In all kinds of workplaces, in the small In all kinds of workplaces, in the small ways it happens is that that stress that ways it happens is that that stress that ways it happens is that that stress that comes at you from above, your manager comes at you from above, your manager comes at you from above, your manager putting stress on you, doesn't care if putting stress on you, doesn't care if putting stress on you, doesn't care if they're calling you at home, doesn't they're calling you at home, doesn't they're calling you at home, doesn't care if they're ruining your weekend, care if they're ruining your weekend, care if they're ruining your weekend, you start to not care if you're ruining you start to not care if you're ruining you start to not care if you're ruining your subordinates weekend as well. your subordinates weekend as well. your subordinates weekend as well. Whereas before you worked then that kind Whereas before you worked then that kind Whereas before you worked then that kind of culture like I would not want to do of culture like I would not want to do of culture like I would not want to do that to somebody who works for me. But that to somebody who works for me. But that to somebody who works for me. But like if it's done to me and that's how like if it's done to me and that's how like if it's done to me and that's how it needs to be done and that's how it is it needs to be done and that's how it is it needs to be done and that's how it is and you start to justify and normalize. and you start to justify and normalize. and you start to justify and normalize. So the consequences of not managing your So the consequences of not managing your So the consequences of not managing your work stress are go beyond your happiness work stress are go beyond your happiness work stress are go beyond your happiness and your health. Uh they can it can and your health. Uh they can it can and your health. Uh they can it can extend all the way to your your ethical extend all the way to your your ethical extend all the way to your your ethical compass and you can get yourself into compass and you can get yourself into compass and you can get yourself into real trouble small or large if you're real trouble small or large if you're real trouble small or large if you're not watching up. not watching up. not watching up. >> And another way that happens just to >> And another way that happens just to >> And another way that happens just to point out that I talk about a lot in the point out that I talk about a lot in the point out that I talk about a lot in the book because I don't think people talk book because I don't think people talk book because I don't think people talk about it enough is you know we we're about it enough is you know we we're about it enough is you know we we're always much more drawn to abuse. Abuse always much more drawn to abuse. Abuse always much more drawn to abuse. Abuse is very shiny. neglect is as damaging a is very shiny. neglect is as damaging a is very shiny. neglect is as damaging a lot of the time and a lot of managers lot of the time and a lot of managers lot of the time and a lot of managers are very neglectful. They're very are very neglectful. They're very are very neglectful. They're very neglectful because they're ignoring the neglectful because they're ignoring the neglectful because they're ignoring the politics that are going on um in their politics that are going on um in their politics that are going on um in their team that are disadvantaging people that team that are disadvantaging people that team that are disadvantaging people that are bullying people because they don't are bullying people because they don't are bullying people because they don't they don't want to get into that or they they don't want to get into that or they they don't want to get into that or they don't want to have to deal with that. don't want to have to deal with that. don't want to have to deal with that. Managers are supposed to protect their Managers are supposed to protect their Managers are supposed to protect their reports and protect their emotional reports and protect their emotional reports and protect their emotional lives and enable them to do their jobs lives and enable them to do their jobs lives and enable them to do their jobs well. And a lot of managers fall down on well. And a lot of managers fall down on well. And a lot of managers fall down on that. They neglect that because they that. They neglect that because they that. They neglect that because they weren't nurtured and this is not how to weren't nurtured and this is not how to weren't nurtured and this is not how to work here. You know how it works here. I work here. You know how it works here. I work here. You know how it works here. I don't have to like baby you. And it's don't have to like baby you. And it's don't have to like baby you. And it's not babying. It's taking it's being not babying. It's taking it's being not babying. It's taking it's being responsible as a manager to find out responsible as a manager to find out responsible as a manager to find out what's going to get a better vibe what's going to get a better vibe what's going to get a better vibe happening to make sure one person is not happening to make sure one person is not happening to make sure one person is not being bullied or harassed by another. being bullied or harassed by another. being bullied or harassed by another. But that often happens because of But that often happens because of But that often happens because of neglect. You have one person who's doing neglect. You have one person who's doing neglect. You have one person who's doing the abuse but you have a lot of people the abuse but you have a lot of people the abuse but you have a lot of people who are neglecting it. And that's who are neglecting it. And that's who are neglecting it. And that's another moral failing. another moral failing. another moral failing. >> Guy Winch, your book is called Mind Over >> Guy Winch, your book is called Mind Over >> Guy Winch, your book is called Mind Over Grind. How to break free when work Grind. How to break free when work Grind. How to break free when work hijacks your life. But that's just your hijacks your life. But that's just your hijacks your life. But that's just your latest book. You've also written latest book. You've also written latest book. You've also written Emotional First Aid: How to Fix a Broken Emotional First Aid: How to Fix a Broken Emotional First Aid: How to Fix a Broken Heart and The Squeaky Wheel. You've Heart and The Squeaky Wheel. You've Heart and The Squeaky Wheel. You've delivered uh several phenomenally delivered uh several phenomenally delivered uh several phenomenally popular TED talks and you have a podcast popular TED talks and you have a podcast popular TED talks and you have a podcast called Dear Therapists. We will put called Dear Therapists. We will put called Dear Therapists. We will put links to all of those in the show notes. links to all of those in the show notes. links to all of those in the show notes. But in the meantime, thank you for But in the meantime, thank you for But in the meantime, thank you for coming on. It was [music] awesome to coming on. It was [music] awesome to coming on. It was [music] awesome to talk to you. talk to you. talk to you. >> Thank you so much for having me. It's >> Thank you so much for having me. It's >> Thank you so much for having me. It's been a pleasure. been a pleasure. been a pleasure. >> Thank you so much to everybody who works >> Thank you so much to everybody who works >> Thank you so much to everybody who works so hard to make this show. 10% Happier so hard to make this show. 10% Happier so hard to make this show. 10% Happier is produced by Tara Anderson and Eleanor is produced by Tara Anderson and Eleanor is produced by Tara Anderson and Eleanor Vasili. Our recording and engineering is Vasili. Our recording and engineering is Vasili. Our recording and engineering is handled by the great folks over at Pod handled by the great folks over at Pod handled by the great folks over at Pod People. [music] Lauren Smith is our People. [music] Lauren Smith is our People. [music] Lauren Smith is our managing producer. Marissa Schneiderman managing producer. Marissa Schneiderman managing producer. Marissa Schneiderman is our senior producer. DJ Cashmir is is our senior producer. DJ Cashmir is is our senior producer. DJ Cashmir is our executive producer. And Nick our executive producer. And Nick our executive producer. And Nick Thorburn of [music] the great indie rock Thorburn of [music] the great indie rock Thorburn of [music] the great indie rock band Islands wrote our theme. One last band Islands wrote our theme. One last band Islands wrote our theme. One last thing I want to say before you go. If thing I want to say before you go. If thing I want to say before you go. If you enjoy this show, please do mess you enjoy this show, please do mess you enjoy this show, please do mess a solid. Follow the show and leave a a solid. Follow the show and leave a a solid. Follow the show and leave a rating and a review on whatever platform rating and a review on whatever platform rating and a review on whatever platform you watch or listen to us on. It only you watch or listen to us on. It only you watch or listen to us on. It only takes a minute. It's free and it really takes a minute. It's free and it really takes a minute. It's free and it really helps new people find us and spread uh helps new people find us and spread uh helps new people find us and spread uh the good news that [music] the mind is the good news that [music] the mind is the good news that [music] the mind is trainable. Thank you sincerely. I mean trainable. Thank you sincerely. I mean trainable. Thank you sincerely. I mean it. Thank you.