The Real Reason You Can't Break a Bad Habit | Charles Duhigg

Key Takeaway

Pick one habit you want to change today and map its loop: identify the cue, name the reward you are really seeking, and design a smaller replacement routine that delivers a similar payoff. Do not rely on willpower alone, especially late in the day. For example, if you stay up for connection or decompression, start that activity 30 minutes earlier and add an immediate bedtime reward, such as reading a favorite book or tracking your on-time bedtime.

Episode Overview

Charles Duhigg explains why habits run so much of daily life and how the cue-routine-reward loop can be used to replace unwanted behaviors rather than merely suppress them. He and Dan Harris apply the model to sleep, exercise, difficult conversations, and the potential "habit window" created by GLP-1 medications. The conversation also explores keystone habits, identity change, and using communication skills to interrupt conflict patterns.

Full Transcript

Transcript of The Real Reason You Can't Break a Bad Habit | Charles Duhigg from 10% Happier. Auto-generated from episode audio; may contain minor errors.

Dan: Hello, everybody. Welcome to the Ten Percent Happier podcast. I'm your host, Dan Harris. We talk a lot on this show about habit formation. Why? Because, uh, this process bedevils so many of us. We know we should do things like meditate or exercise or get more sleep, and yet somehow, inexplicably, we don't do those things. Dan: And that is why habit formation is such a key topic and why we come back to it so often. Today, my guest literally wrote the book on habit formation. He wrote a massive bestseller called The Power of Habit.

Um, he also wrote a book, uh, another bestseller, called Supercommunicators, and we're gonna talk today about how to connect, uh, habit formation, uh, to your communication style. Dan: And perhaps most fascinatingly, we're gonna talk about what GLP-1s might be revealing about, uh, how and why, uh, we change our habits. So a lot here to discuss with my guest, Charles Duhigg. Charles, welcome back to the show. Charles: Thanks for having me. This... It's always such a treat to get a chance to spend some time with you.

Dan: All right. Before we get to all the stuff about GLP-1s, which I am- Really curious about. Let's just talk about the basics of habit formation- Yeah ... and how to make good habits and break bad ones. Before we get super practical, which we will, uh, just to put this in perspective, I saw a statistic while researching this, and you'll tell me if it's correct, that 40% of daily human actions are habits rather than conscious decisions. Dan: Is that true? Charles: That's absolutely true, and it's actually, it's actually f- even worse.

It's 40 to 45%. That's from, um, research that a woman named Wendy Wood, who's now at USC, did. And you're exactly right. When you think about it, um, much of what you do as you go through your day is not these, like, calm, deliberate decisions. Charles: It's that you're doing things kind of instinctually, kind of automatically. And in fact, if, if we didn't have the ability to do that, we would, we would be in a terrible place. We, we would not have evolved to become humans.

There's a, there's a part of our brain n- n- named the basal ganglia that exists in every single mammal, and this, this p- region of the brain basically exists just to make habits because without the ability to stop thinking about some behaviors, we simply don't have enough kind of neurological cognitive horsepower to get, to make it through the world. Charles: So this is, this is how our body has, has dealt with that, is, is it makes certain decisions into habits, and then that gives us the free time to think about inventing fire or making music or in- inventing video game consoles.

Dan: Right. So if we had to remember how to turn a doorknob 75 times a day, we'd be kinda f*cked. Charles: Oh, absolutely, or, or even worse, if you were walking down the path and you saw an apple and a rock and you had to decide which one of them to pick up and eat, right? There, there's real dangers to not being able to form habits. Dan: I think you talk about this in your book, that there's an interesting distinction between the part of the brain that retains memory and the part of the brain, uh, where we retain habits.

Charles: Absolutely. Absolutely. So, so m- much of what we think of as actual thought occurs in the prefrontal cortex, right? That's where we ... That's where our language, our ability to l- to sort of speak with other people comes from, our ability to form and remember those memories. But the ... Much of the brain exists in older structures that predate speech, that predate what we think of as conscious thought. Charles: And there's a story in the book, um, Power of Habit, about a, uh, a patient who, because of a, a surgery he'd undergone, had complete amnesia.

He basically couldn't remember anything longer than about five or 10 seconds. And yet- When researchers would watch him, what they would find is that if they told him, you know, "Here's a toy. Charles: I'm gonna hide it. Do you remember where we hid it?" He'll say, "No, I have no idea what you're talking about." And yet he was able to find the bathroom on his own. He was able to make himself breakfast in the morning. If he went on a walk, as long as he took the same route, he could walk by himself and find his way back home.

Charles: And they couldn't understand how this was possible. How can a guy who can't remember what happened literally just minutes ago, how can he remember how to find the path home? And from this came one of our big discoveries, which is that much of the neural encoding of habits lies in a distinct region of our brain beyond where we think of as storing memories or conscious or deliberate thought. Charles: And that kind of makes sense when you think about it, because so many of the habits in our lives, they feel very outside of conscious thought, right?

In fact, we know that during a habit, when you're in the grip of a habit, your brain actually kind of shuts down. It stops working quite as hard. And so one of the big lessons here is that if we can spend time understanding our own habits, and there's, there's a really, there's a really simple way of doing that, then we get power over this 40 to 45% of our day that otherwise might be occurring outside of our consciousness. Charles: Well, let me explain what a habit is, right?

And then we can sort of talk about it. So a habit-- every habit in your life, about half of what you do every day, has three components. There is a cue, which is like a trigger for an automatic behavior to start. And then there's the routine, which is the behavior itself. Charles: And then every habit in your life, whether you're aware of it or not, delivers a reward to you. So what's happened is that this cue, routine, reward, that's become known as the habit loop. And what we know is that when that cue emerges and we go into that automatic behavior and we start craving that reward, even if we're not aware that we're craving it, at that moment, much of the decision-making activity moves away from our prefrontal cortex, from our deliberate thought, into these automatic patterns, automaticity that we've developed.

Charles: And what we've learned is that if you can diagnose the, the cues and the routines, if instead of just focusing on the behavior itself, if you can figure out what cues and routines are driving the habits in your life, then you have the ability to sort of reprogram those behaviors. It empowers you to figure out why you're doing the things you're doing if you're not thinking hard about them, and reshape them in a way where they can be healthier, better habits for you. Dan: Okay, so walk me through how that would work.

Like, just say I'm struggling to boot up an exercise habit. How could I apply what you just said to doing that? Charles: What's a habit that you have tried to develop lately or you've tried to change that, that you've, uh, has not gone as, as successfully as you had hoped? Dan: Going to bed earlier. If I go to bed by 10:00 or 10:30, I sleep so much better than if I wait even till 11:00, never mind going later than that. Charles: Okay, okay. So now we know what the routine that we want is.

Going to go- being in bed, eyes closed by 10:30. Okay, so let me ask you, let's talk about the cues first. Charles: When, when you find yourself staying up later than 10:30, what's going on? Is it that you're, like, not looking at the clock and you don't notice that it's late? Is it that you're wrapped up in something? What's going on when you don't... Like last night, I don't, I don't know if you fell asleep by 10:30 last night, but last night, what was going on that stopped you from falling asleep at 10:30?

Dan: No, this is top of mind because literally last night I stayed up later. Uh, and I only stayed up till 11:00, and it, it screwed up my whole night. I know exactly what was going on. I did not lose track of time. I was keenly aware of the time, but I was watching a movie with my son, who's 11 and a half, and he... Dan: It, it's, um, you know, it was, it was not a school night, and so he could stay up as late as he wanted, and I wanted to stay up with him.

And I didn't wanna put myself to bed at, at, uh, at 10:00 or 10:30 because I was hanging out with my son. Charles: And, and an opportunity to, like, hang out with your son at, at 11 and a half-year-old at night is kind of it's, like, the most precious commodity out there. Charles: Yes. So here's what we know about habits. Almost all habits fall into one of five categories. It's usually a certain time of day, a particular place, a particular emotion A, the presence of certain other people, or a preceding behavior that's become ritualized.

And it can be more than one of those, those five. Charles: So last night, it sounds like what the cue was to stay up later than 10:30 was that you wanted to hang out with your kid. And so it'd be the presence of certain other people. Now, how frequently is that what's keeping you up at night? How frequently is it that you're hanging out with other people versus something else? Dan: Hanging out with other people is the biggie. This may not be an original thought, but I think of it as kind of like a social tax, and that I am often willing to pay because s- my social life, either within my family or within my broader group of friends, is so important to me.

And if, and just if we're st- if we're staying on, you know, evidence-based assertions here, there's a ton of evidence that your social life, the quality of your social life and your relationships dictates the overall quality of your life. Dan: So I'm often willing to pay that tax, but it is usually, uh, as you're driving at, uh, the presence of other people. The one other thing is kind of, and this is again not my term, revenge nighttime procrastination. I've worked my ass off all day and, um, you know what?

I wanna watch, um, another episode of House of the Dragon. Charles: Yeah, I deserve this, right? So, so here's what I hear you saying. I'm hearing you say that there's, there's often two cues that are causing this stay up late habit. The first is presence of certain other people, which... And by the way, you're 1000% right. Like, it's actually way better to have healthy relationships than to get in bed on time. Charles: And then also I think it's a certain emotion that you're feeling a sense of like, "You know what?

I deserve this. I get... I deserve to watch more trashy television about dragons because, 'cause I worked hard today." Okay. So now we know what the cues are that we can work with. Now here's my next, my next question. Charles: We need to talk about the rewards. Last night when you stayed up late, what do you think the reward was that it was delivering to you? Dan: I'm fully obsessed with my son and it delivered the reward of... I've got one kid. He was away, uh, for a few weeks recently, and, uh, that was very hard for me, and I will, I wanna squeeze every ounce of time I can with him Charles: So it's, it sounds to me like, like love, like being able to like actually- Good question.

Charles: Good question ... experience and participate in that love, which is a very positive thing, right? Like that feels really good. Yeah. Yes. And, and now let me ask you, the last time you stayed up late watching House of the Dragon, what do you think the reward was there? What were you feeling as you were watching that rather than going to bed? Dan: Revenge on the universe for, you know- ... making me work so hard. Charles: So again, it- it's kind of an emotional, an emotional reward that you're talking about, right?

Yes. Yeah. And one thing that's interesting is every habit in our life, and there's hundreds, potentially thousands of habits that can happen every day, each of them delivers a reward to us. Charles: So when you're in the habit of backing your car out of the driveway without having to like, you know, pay close attention to it 'cause you've done it a thousand times, without you realizing it, when you make it into the road safely without hitting the trash cans, there's a small spike of dopamine in your brain.

Charles: Now, it's such a small spike that you don't actually register it, but your brain registers it, and your brain says, "Oh, you know what? This activity, backing the car out of the driveway, it gives me a good feeling, and so I'm gonna make that activity easier and easier and easier." Now, with you, when you're watching TV rather than going to bed, what you're doing is you're saying, is your brain is saying, "Oh, you know what? Charles: When I stay up late with my son, I just feel like this wholesomeness of love.

Like, I just feel like..." Or, "When I stay up late watching House of the Dragon, I feel like, I feel probably proud, like proud of myself that like I've had a hard enough day that I allowed to do that," but B, also like a sense of justice returning to the universe, right? Charles: Yeah, yeah, yeah. Like, I had to work all day long, and like this is my reward. I deserve this. So now we know what the cue and the reward is that seems to be driving this behavior, seems to be driving this habit that already exists in your life of staying up too late.

What we wanna do is we wanna change that habit to put you in bed a little bit earlier. Charles: And so the first thing we need to do is we need to talk about the cue. So if the cue is a certain emotion that you are feeling or the presence of certain other people, let me ask you this. Is there a way to, to get that same, to trigger that cue a little bit earlier in the day? 'Cause you're only trying to go to bed 30 minutes earlier, right?

Charles: If you... I- is there a way for you to deliberately start watching that movie with your son 30 or 45 minutes earlier, or to put on that episode of House of the Dragon 30 or 45 minutes earlier? Dan: Yes. Yes, there is. Charles: Yeah. Be- because you control your life, right? You, you like, you have these tools. And, and let me ask you this. Charles: So let's say we did that. Let's say that last night the movie had stopped a little bit earlier, and you had gotten in bed, um, by 10:30.

You still have that same reward of spending time with your son. You still feel good. Is there another reward that you could give yourself? For getting in bed by 10:30. Like, if you wanted to, to make a ritual around, around getting into bed where you give yourself a reward, what would that look like? Dan: Interesting. I mean, 'cause the thing that's coming to mind is there's the delayed reward of waking up the next day and seeing that my sleep score was 100 on my Apple Watch.

Charles: But that, that's a little, little too far off, yeah. Dan: Right. So it's like this is probably why they put chocolate on the pillow in a hotel. Dan: Um, I'm not gonna eat chocolate right before bed, because then I wouldn't sleep until Tuesday. But is some- there's something I could do to make bedtime awesome. Charles: Absolutely. And in fact, it's, it would be really easy. Like for instance, you could spray lavender on your pillow and say, like, "This, this scent, like slaying down in this scent, this is a symb- symbol to myself that I worked hard today, that I get revenge on the universe and get to have the, have the nighttime ritual that I want." Charles: It could be something as simple as when you get into bed, just writing down on a note card what time it is.

Because what you're doing is you're creating a ritualized behavior that becomes rewarding. When you get into bed and you write down it's 10:28, there's a part of your brain that says, "Oh, man, Dan, good job. Charles: Like, like four days in a row it's been before 10:30." Now you're suddenly giving yourself a reward. So what we've done is we've used the same old cue, right? We figured out how to deliver something similar to the old same reward. And what we've changed is just the routine, just the behavior in the middle.

Charles: You're just getting into bed 30 minutes earlier. Now, to do that, you're probably gonna have to, like, set an alarm to remind yourself, "Oh, I can't wait until 9:15 to start House of the Dragons. I need to start it at 8:45 or at 9:00," right? And you can even put that on your phone, a little something to remind you. Charles: And then you need to build this reward to say like, "I got to hang out with my son today, and I'm in bed by twen- 10:28, and this has just been a great day." When you do that, what you're doing is you're basically telling your brain, your basal ganglia, to sort of reprogram this habit.

And within psychology, this is known as the golden rule of habit change. Charles: And what it says is, if you wanna build habits or if you want to change habits in your life, you shouldn't think about trying to extinguish the old behavior. Right? If, if you smoked and you have a smoking habit, even if you gave the cigarettes up 10 years ago, when you see some cigarettes, you might still have that craving, right? Charles: You ... The, the neurological circuitry associated with every habit stays in our brain.

So instead of thinking about breaking a bad habit, instead of thinking about extinguishing a bad habit, the way to think of it is to think about changing a habit by keeping the old cues, finding something that delivers something similar to that old reward, and just changing the behavior in the middle. Charles: And that's what's, that's what's known as the golden rule of habit change, that keep the cue, keep the reward, change the behavior. Dan: With summer winding down and all of us returning to our routines, and some of us returning to school or returning our children to school, uh, this feels like an appropriate moment to hit reset.

Dan: And I don't mean like a full comprehensive panoramic reset of everything in your life, just like small marginal changes you can make in your life that can make a big difference. And so that's what we're focusing on right now over on my app, Ten Percent with Dan Harris. This September, we'll be joined by Diana Winston, who's the director of UCLA's Mindfulness Center and the author of a book called The Little Book of Being. Dan: The LA Times has called her one of the best known mindfulness teachers in the country.

Once you hear her, you will understand why. And you can practice live with Diana right inside the Ten Percent with Dan Harris app starting on September 8th. And then later in September, we'll be dropping a brand-new meditation challenge from Diana, all in the theme of resetting. Dan: More on that in just a couple of weeks. For now, though, uh, if you could use just a little bit of a reset and you wanna hang out and meditate with me and Diana and many other folks, you can sign up for my app at danharris.com.

We will be right back. Skincare products often overpromise and, uh, underdeliver when, uh, in fact, they should be clean and simple. Dan: I have, uh, had really good results, however, with a company called OSEA. I like to do a little, uh, moisturizing before bed. This is something I was, uh, to be a little cute, sleeping on for a long time, but as I've reached the age of 55, I've realized I need to start taking care of my skin a little bit better and OSEA has really nice stuff that I've enjoyed, uh, putting on my mug.

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That's O-S-E-A malibu.com with the code HAPPIER You know what I'm thinking of as I'm listening to you, is that this is what you're describing and the way in which you're describing it, it seems like an elevated version of the way we would train a dog. Dan: Jump through that hoop and I'm gonna give you a treat. That, that seems like what we're doing to our own brains in order to get us to stop doing stupid sh*t. Charles: It's not that different. It's not that different, right?

Like Pavlov ha- Pavlov was onto something with his dogs. The difference though is that... Well, two th- two things. Charles: Number one, for the dog, the dog doesn't get to choose the cue or the reward. It just happens almost outside of their consciousness, right? They, they don't know that the bell ringing, uh, is artificially connected to them getting food. They think the bell and the food are somehow cause and effect, if they can think that deeply. Charles: But the other thing is that you have the ability to actually make rewards more salient simply by deciding that you want them to be more rewarding.

So when you get into bed and you write down on a note card, you know, "I got into bed at 10:28." Uh, feeling great 'cause I just hung out with my son. There is no reason why that should make you feel good, right? Charles: Like, your son's not there right now. Writing something down on a note card. But the act of you deciding, "When I'm gonna write down what time it is I'm getting into bed and one accomplishment that I got done today," the act of you deciding that that is rewarding actually makes it rewarding.

So we as humans have the ability to decide what rewards we want to encourage and discourage. Charles: And when we do, what we, what happens is that we get our hands on the, the gears of habit formation. We, we, we sort of pop open the hood of our head and can fiddle with the parts, and we get to decide, "This is rewarding to me," and what our brain does is it actually makes it more and more rewarding. Dan: There's no question what you're describing is way more sophisticated than Pavlov or, um, my neighbor's dog, uh, or if I try to train a cat, it would...

Dan: Uh, we've got three of them. They're impossible to train- ... but that's a whole different subject. Um, but my, my point is, I think that many of us assume that if we're going to change a habit, either create a new one or break an old one, a bad one, it's gonna be through iron force of will, and it's going to involve, uh, a lot of muscling through. Dan: And what I hear you describing is kind of just, like, giving the brain treats over and over again, positive reinforcement as a way to get to the, to the goal.

Charles: Absolutely. Absolutely. And, and that's not to say that willpower doesn't have a role in this, right? There's some habits that are, that are harder than others and that we, we have to sit down and we have to kinda say, like, "Okay, I'm gonna use my willpower muscle a little bit to get this started." Charles: But we make it much, much easier on ourselves when we pay attention to these cues and the rewards, when we give ourselves rewards for the behaviors that we wanna encourage because you're exactly right.

Willpower is a limited resource. It's like a muscle that gets tired throughout the day. And so if you're relying on willpower to put you to bed rather than watch House of the Dragons, you're kinda screwed by the end of the day because you've been using willpower all day long to get work done. Charles: And so a much better way of changing your own behavior, and we know this from study after study, is rather than relying on willpower, rely on creating a new habit in your life, a new habit loop That allow, that makes that behavior easier Dan: This can cascade.

You, in your book, talk about the concept of a keystone habit. Dan: Can you say more about that? Charles: Absolutely. So a keystone habit, what we've discovered is that there are some habits that when they start to change, they set off a chain reaction, and they make other, other patterns more malleable. A great example of this is, for instance, um, uh, exercise, right? On the days that you exercise, it's easier to eat healthily, right? Charles: You can walk into the cafeteria, instead of getting a hamburger, you get a salad.

And, and we all kind of, we all kind of accept that that's true. Like, we expect that even though it doesn't make that much sense. Why would sore legs make it easier for me to eat healthily at, at lunch? There's these two researchers in Australia who also found that on the days that people exercise, they tend to use their credit cards less. Charles: They procrastinate less at work. If they have, like, t- chores at home, like doing the dishes, they'll on average start those chores about 15 minutes earlier in the day.

Now, there is no one on this planet who thinks like, "I'm going for a run this morning. I'm gonna keep my Amex in my pocket today." And yet what we know is that for some people, when they start an exercise habit, it makes other patterns, like eating patterns or spending patterns or how you use your time patterns, more malleable. Charles: It makes them easier to change. And that's because for many people, exercise is a keystone habit. It sets off this chain reaction that makes other patterns more malleable And now what's interesting about this is that this isn't-- exercise is not a keystone habit for everyone, and the reason why it is for some people is because it influences our identity.

Charles: So if someone was a high school athlete, they're accustomed to thinking of themselves as an athlete. And then let's say they take a couple years off because they have kids or life happens, and then they start exercising again. It is unlikely that that will be a keystone habit in their life. It, it's still a very healthy habit, but it probably won't set off a cascade of other changes. Charles: And the reason why is because they already think of themselves as an athlete. Like, they're not, they're not changing their self-identity.

But take someone like me, who did not play any sports in high school, who basically was, like, super physically unhealthy until, you know, like, my late 20s, early 30s, and then I started running. Charles: When I started running, I had all these, like, totally irrational anxieties. Like, I don't know what clothes to wear. I don't know what route to take. I'm gonna look really dumb cl- uh, like, I've seen myself run. I look really goofy. All of those are indications that for me, exercise, in particular running, is a keystone habit.

Charles: And what I found is that when I started running, there was some part of my brain, again- again, not the prefrontal cortex, kind of the deep interior structures, that looks at my behavior and says, "You know what? Charlie doesn't think he's a, he's a runner, but this morning he went for a two-mile run. And the thing about a guy who goes for a two-mile run is that guy doesn't eat an unhealthy hamburger at lunch. Charles: That guy eats a salad." So what-- the reason why keystone habits are so, so powerful is because it starts changing our self-image, in pa- in, in particular, that part of our self-image that isn't based on our stated preferences, but rather on our revealed preferences, on how we act rather than what we say.

And when that happens, it ta- that's what makes these other patterns and these other habits more malleable. Dan: How do we figure out what the keystone habits might be for ourselves? Charles: Yeah. The best way, as I mentioned, is look for the kind of change that seems irrationally anxiety-producing to you. Like, let me ask you. So there's all kinds of healthy habits that, that I'm sure you wish you had in your life. Any, are there any of them that when you think about them, you're like, "Oh, God," like, "I just...

Charles: I don't even, I don't even wanna think about it. Like, that doesn't seem fun at all," or like that just sort of like, you know, makes me a little antsy? Dan: Yes. Going on increasingly long meditation retreats. Uh, I have friends who will do a month or two months, and yeah, that makes me really anxious when I think about it. Charles: And, and yet you love meditation, right? Like, you've been me- you've been meditating for years, and years, and years. Dan: It, it's funny to describe loving meditation because I am a deep believer in the power of meditation and, uh, deeply committed to it, but it's not...

uh, you know, as somebody who has meditated, like you sit down, and you're with your mind. Dan: Um, some days you can get really concentrated and feel really good, and other days it's like you're reliving your deepest trauma. So it's, it's hard to describe it as like, it's not as much fun as watching dragons on television. It's just not in the same league. And so it's not like, uh, just doing more of it is necessarily gonna be great. Dan: The idea of doing it for a month and being away from my family, even if, even if I wasn't so prone to homesickness and I've, uh, even if I wasn't so attached to my wife, and son, uh, and cats, just, uh, the idea of living at a retreat center for a month and a, and basically in a monastic lifestyle is really scary to me.

Charles: So here's what's interesting about what you just said. You said that it's scary And the truth is that if I asked you, "Do you want to go hit ourselves in the shin with a hammer for the next 30 minutes?" You would say no. It wouldn't necessarily be scary to you, it would just seem non-essential, right? Like a dumb thing to do. Charles: Instead of feeling like a month-long meditation retreat is just something you can say no to, it feels a little anxiety producing to you.

And what that suggests to me is that there's something about how you see yourself right now that is, that you worry about what that month-long retreat might reveal about that part of yourself. Charles: And in doing so, that doesn't mean that you have to do a month-long retreat. There's lots of good reasons not to do a month-long retreat. But my guess is that if you did do a month-long retreat, it would subtly change how you see yourself. N- again, not even that part of our brain that's conscious thought, not the stated preferences of who we think we are, but rather than the revealed preferences.

Charles: There's part of your brain that says, "You know, I always thought that Dan was the kind of guy who, like, he said he wanted to go on a month-long retreat, and he never actually did it, but now he's doing it. And the kind of guy who goes on a month-long retreat, that's the kind of guy who actually, like, has no problem increasing his meditation each day by 15 minutes, or has no problem doing X or Y or Z." Dan: If I follow that chain that you're proposing, I think the th- I think where it goes is he's the guy who isn't a workaholic because he can take a month off.

Charles: And that can be anxiety producing, right? Like, if you're not a workaholic, what are you? Uh, there's probably a lot of your success that's r- that's rooted in w- being a workaholic. Charles: And so now, and yet at the same time, if you prove to yourself, you know what? Like, again, that interior part of your brain is saying, "You know what? Dan's the kind of guy who he can be a workaholic. He can work hard when he wants to, and then he can turn it off and he can go relax." Well, that's someone who also doesn't...

Charles: There's all kinds of anxieties that that person doesn't have to feel, right? There's all kinds of mental habits that I can change. I don't need to feel anxious when I think about my calendar for tomorrow because I've proven to myself I can turn this on or off. I don't need to feel antsy when I go on a vacation or shy away from taking on commitments because I, I, I have learned, I've proved to myself that I can turn it on or off That's the power of keystone habits, is that it gives us this insight into the capacities that we have that we didn't think we had.

Charles: We, we might, we might have BS'd ourself into thinking we have them, but we haven't really proved it to ourself, and when that pattern changes, it makes all kinds of other patterns more malleable and more open for, for change. Dan: I wanna just go one more beat on this, because I picked something really daunting and that a lot of people probably cannot see themselves in. Dan: But to be clear, a keystone habit, while I think definitionally should cause a little bit of anxiety, does not have to involve putting your life on hold for a month.

It's, in your case it was just going running for two miles. Charles: I mean, it wasn't even running for two miles. It was, like, running for two blocks, right? Charles: Like, it was like, when I started my running habit, I, like, started the smallest, with the smallest step possible, which was, like, literally I would tell myself, like, "All you need to do tomorrow is put on your running shoes and step outside." Right? Put on some running clothes and running shoes, step outside. Charles: And for, like, two days that's all I did.

I literally would walk outside and I'd be like, "Okay, I accomplished this." And then on day three I was kinda like, "If I already have my running shoes on, why don't I just go for a run?" Right? But all I have to do is two blocks. You're right. It, it can be very, very small steps, and it should be very small steps. Charles: Like, if somebody doesn't meditate, they shouldn't think about doing a, a month-long meditation retreat as their first instance. If you're someone who has never done a long retreat before, maybe a month is too long.

Maybe you should start with a week or start with four days. But the point being that These behaviors don't have to be big b- because in our head they are bigger than they ought to be. Charles: Right? The idea of me going out, putting on running shoes, getting out the door, when I first started running, all I could think about was like, "I'm just gonna look so dumb. I don't even know what to do. Like, I don't even know what route to take." And then, of course, you find that, like, actually it's not as hard and scary as y- you think it is, and suddenly there's part of your brain that starts thinking of yourself as a runner or as a person who can meditate or as a person who can turn on or off their, their workaholic instincts.

Charles: And it's that change in self-identity that becomes, that becomes the keystone habit, that really unlocks things. It doesn't matter how big the behavior is, it's about how you see yourself. Dan: Okay. So let's, let's talk about GLP-1s. Charles: Yeah. Dan: Is it true that GLP-1s are changing the way we think about how humans, uh, make or break habits? Charles: Yeah. It, it-- very much so. So The Power of Habit came out about 13 years ago, and for a number of years after that, when I was talking to people, they would say, "Well, like, what's new?

Like, what have we learned that's new and surprising to you?" And I'd often say, "Not really a lot," right? Because, like, we had figured out basically through neural imaging of-- at about the time I wrote the book, we'd figured out how habits work within our brains. Charles: We'd figured out this cue routine reward and the neurological structure associated with it. But then there weren't many discoveries. And then something happened that kind of awakened me to these new possibilities, which is that about two and a half years ago, or two years ago now, I started taking a GLP-1.

Charles: I, I started using one. And I noticed this, like, kind of interesting thing that happened in my life, which is there was this food noise. If I sat down in a restaurant, there was a bucket of fries there. I could not prevent myself from eventually just grabbing one of the fries and eating it. I wouldn't even decide to do it. Charles: It's just it would almost be like a, an automatic behavior, like a habit that, like, without thinking about it, I would just suddenly find the fry in my mouth and be like, "Oh, I guess I'm eating some fries right now." The same way that people who are habitual nail biters often say they didn't realize that they were biting their nails until they felt their finger in their mouth.

Charles: And then I started taking a GLP-1, and suddenly this food noise inside my head, the thing that kind of nudged me to go pick up that french fry, it went away. It got quiet. And I hadn't even realized that that food noise was there until it went away. And at that moment I was like, "Oh, this is super interesting. Charles: I can sit down at a table and there's a basket of fries right there, and like, I just decide not to eat the fries and I don't eat the fries." There's nothing, there's nothing that gets me to, to reach over and grab one without thinking about it.

And so I started looking at what was going on. This, this is a change in habits. Charles: And about the same time we, we're seeing research saying people on GLP-1s were, um, drinking less, which I found to be true in my life. People with addictions on GLP-1s found that their addictions were easier to overcome, that people would, would gamble less when they were on a GLP-1. And I, I said to myself, "Look, it feels to me like this is something in habit formation. Charles: It feels like my habits are changing." And so I went looking for companies and, and researchers that were working on this, and I found this company Noom, um, which is a, an online app.

Some of your listeners might be familiar with it. For years it's existed as kind of a, a food tracking thing and, and now it's really focused on a companion to GLP-1 use. Charles: And Noom was doing all of this research on what do we know happens to people's habits when they are on a GLP-1? And what they found was this. And I... When people start on a GLP-1, there seems to be this habit window that opens, that suddenly all the cues in your life, the n- food noise in my head, which is the cue for eating the french fry, that tends to get quieted, and as a result my behaviors can change.

Charles: But what they found is for many people who are taking a GLP-1, if they stop taking the GLP-1, the food noise comes right back, they start eating the french fries, they regain all the weight that they lost or whatever changes they were trying to make. But if during that habit window, if you can have a structured system to build different, better habits, right? Charles: If I can build a s- a system that helps me understand the cue and the reward that's driving me towards that french fry, and I can build a new habit that I'm gonna reach for a carrot instead of a, of a, of a french fry, then even when they discontinue the medication, that habit tends to persist and they'll keep the weight off.

Charles: In fact, they'll keep twice as much weight off than, than people who, who don't have a habit change system in place And, and I thought that was really interesting, and so I wanted to understand more. And so that's when I got interested, that's when I got involved with Noom. I'm an, an advisor to them now. Charles: That's when I started looking at the research. And one of the things that we're discovering is that we can create opportunities for ourselves to change our habits that are very valuable, but it's a habit window.

It's a window that opens and closes. And what you have to do in that window is not just say like, "Oh, I don't need to eat anymore," but rather to say, "Oh, I'm getting a breather here. Charles: I get to build a new habit." And that way when the window closes, when I stop using the medication or it becomes less effective, the habit will still be there, and that's the healthier behavior that'll stick with. Dan: I'm holding in my hand, and if you're, uh, listening instead of watching, you can't see this, but just trust me, I'm holding in my hand a really cool gadget that just came in the mail.

Dan: This is called the FitNexa Somnipods 3. Essentially, they are earbuds that you can wear to sleep. And unlike other earbuds that, uh, are a little clunky if you're lying on your side, these are designed for side sleepers like me. And I have fit them into my ear, and they slide in quite nicely and are comfortable when you, uh, slide onto your side, which is a requirement for me if I'm gonna be wearing anything in my ears at night. Dan: FitNexa actually provides a, a couple of cool benefits.

First, these earbuds block noise that can be distracting when you're trying to fall asleep. That's a huge problem for many of us, especially if, uh, you sleep next to somebody who snores, as is the plight of my wife. Also, though, uh, you can use these earbuds to pipe into your noggin soothing sleep sounds, calming audio, or other nighttime content through the FitNexa app, which I have downloaded and is very clean and smooth and easy to use. Dan: They've got guided meditations and nature sounds and all the stuff that many of you like to use when you're trying to fall asleep.

You can learn more about the FitNexa Somnipods 3 at fitnexa.com and use the code HAPPIER10 for $10 off your order. Let me ask a skeptical question. Uh, two parts. Is, is what you're discussing established science, A, and B, is the way you look at it skewed at all by the fact that you have a financial relationship with Noom? Charles: Is it established science? Absolutely. So the thing is that we don't understand why it's happening, right? So a GLP-1 is a glucagon-like peptide, and for a long time people thought that glucagon was this thing that regulated hunger.

It also was involved in insulin production. But we didn't, we didn't think that glucagon was like... Charles: I mean, we thought it was important, but we didn't think it was that big a deal. And then when people started taking GLP-1s, we, the researchers noticed this behavior, that there was a change, a shift in how people behaved. And they came to this realization that, like, actually glucagon is much more complicated than we expect, which probably means other things in our body are much more complicated than we expect them to be.

Charles: And so what the, the results I'm talking about are completely sci- backed by the science. Understanding exactly why it happens is still something that people are trying to figure out. To your second question, is working with Noom, does it shift how I see this? I, I think the answer is no. I, like, so I've been working with Noom for, I don't know, six months now. Charles: I, I kind of came to them, and the reason I came to them is because I really wanted to understand what was going on.

I started taking a GLP-1 two years ago, and like, honestly, like, I have been an evangelist for GLP-1s since then. Like- It, it has been life-changing for me. I've lost 45 pounds on a GLP-1, and I say this as someone who like my entire life struggled with my weight. Charles: And I'm a, I'm a successful person, right? Like I was a reporter at The New York Times, I'm a reporter at The New Yorker, I have a Pulitzer Prize, and, and I couldn't figure out if I'm so smart, like why is it so hard for me to eat less?

Why is it so hard for me to get up in the morning and go for a jog? And so when I started taking the GLP-1 and it suddenly felt like this thing that had been such a struggle for me for so long, that it suddenly became easier and that I could actually see like, "Oh, here's how I reprogram these habits," that's the thing that has biased me, is my personal experience. Charles: Um, the w- working with Noom is just because Noom has done this research that I think is interesting and, and it helps validate what we're learning about GLP-1s u- use.

It also helps destigmatize talking about GLP-1s, because I think a lot of people still shy away from talking about them because for some reason we think weight loss should be like a moral victory as opposed to a physical one. Charles: If anything has biased how I feel, feel about this research, it's my own personal experience, and I will tell anyone who asks me, like if they're thinking about a GLP-1 like just try it. And if you have the same experience I had, which is that this part of your life that seemed like it was completely outside of your control, at least some of the time, is suddenly inside your control, that is so empowering.

Charles: Like it just feels so good. Dan: What about people whose doctors are not saying to them, "You need to lose weight"? Like I, I have many psychological and physiological problems. I, I don't think my doctor believes I need to lose weight. I actually have a lot of friends who are, I guess, I don't know if this is the right term in this context, microdosing G- uh, a GLP-1, and they evangelize for its many, many benefits, and I just I, I don't know what to think about that.

Charles: No one should have to take any medication that they don't wanna take, right? Like there's, there's no reason. If you're not sick, you don't have to take anything if you don't wanna take it. But I will say, you know, Noom, a lot of Noom's business th- 'cause they actually prescribe GLP-1s and a lot of those prescriptions are these microdoses. Charles: And what we are seeing is that there's a certain class of person who it seems like they don't struggle with their weight, they don't have problems, um, ignoring the food that's on the table, but there are other things that they do struggle with and that in some cases the GLP-1 actually helps, particularly the microdose.

Charles: Um, some people who like are drinking too much. I mean, I used to have, you know, two or three cocktails a week and I'd look forward to having a glass of wine with dinner. I like just have no desire to drink alcohol anymore. Like it just, it just is kind of like it's erased from my brain. And if I was someone who had struggled with drinking, which I haven't been historically, but if that, if that was something that was, was an issue for me, I think that a microdose of GLP-1 would be at least worth trying to see if it curbs that craving.

Charles: The nice thing about GLP-1s too that it's worth mentioning is it's a peptide So a peptide is a chain of amino acids, and basically w- w- you inject that chain into your body. Once that chain kind of disintegrates, it's gone forever. So it's not like, um... it's not like a, a antidepressant, like an SSRI, serotonin- selective serotonin re- uptake inhibitor, where you're actually changing some of the, the physiology within your brain by taking the drug, even once you discontinue the drug. Charles: Peptides and GLP-1s, basically you take it, it lasts, like, a week at most, 10 days, and then after that, it's, it's gone.

There's no behavior or there's no impact to it after you've stopped using it. So it's something that people can, can experiment with. That being said, I don't want to encourage anyone to use a GLP-1 that doesn't think that this is the right choice for them. Charles: It's not like this is something you have to do. But it is a tool that's available to people who find themselves dealing with cravings, whether they be food or otherwise, that are just kind of burdensome. It is a tool to give you a, a breather to open up that habit window so you can build some new healthier habits around those substances and then discontinue the GLP-1 if you want to.

Dan: I was talking to my... My wife is a physician, d- generally very, very skeptical, and we were talking the other day about this sense that we have, um, that the conversation around GLP-1s is really changing. Um, as you know, I had Johann Hari on the show a couple of years ago when he wrote this whole big book about GLP-1s, and he was super conflicted about, you know, he's on one, but, um, should I be on one? Dan: Um, there are all these side effects that, uh, he was worried about, which w- we, I also want to talk to you about.

And then there are a lot of people who I think justifiably worry that really the move for, um, changing your relationship to your body and food is to end the war with yourself, right? Like, not to, to have some sort of medical intervention, but to, like, um, have a less hostile relationship to, to your body and, and by extension to food. Dan: Anyway, so there's, there was a lot of controversy about it, and I think there still is controversy, but I'm just getting a sense just- osmotically, uh, animalistically that, uh, Dan: it seems like there's less hostility and wariness about these, this class of medications.

And, um, and now we're seeing people who would not cl- not two or three years ago have been considered candidates for these drugs, taking them in small doses for y- you know, use cases that m- are, like, orthogonal to weight loss. Charles: I think when GLP-1s first came out, we were kind of in phase one of, of GLP-1 use, which was all about appetite suppression. Like, we were basically using it for diabetics and for people who, whose appetites were too large. We're now in phase two, and phase two is much more understanding that there's something happening here that makes habits more malleable, that opens up that habit window, and that you can take advantage of that if you have a structured system to identify and change your habits.

Charles: And that structured system is really, really important 'cause it's, it's something that's hard to do without a s- without a system in place, whether it's designed by you or it comes from a company like Noom. But to the second thing you re- you mentioned, this kind of like you should just be in love with your body and like... Charles: Every time I sat down and there was french fries on the table, I was at war with my body. Like, like the war with my body wasn't just accepting myself, the war was that I didn't wanna eat french fries.

I knew that french fries were unhealthy for me, and like as soon as my, as soon as I was distracted, my hand would go over and pick up a french fry and put it in my mouth. Charles: Th- this is what I mean. I do think that there is this instinct to see things around weight loss as moralistic, right? That either we should like embrace who we are or we should have the willpower not to eat so much. And at least for people like me, and I'll just talk from my own experience, like that is not saying like you should be okay with your body when you're 40 pounds overweight.

Charles: It, it wasn't life-threatening immediately, but like I snored at night. I like to surf and it was really hard for me to pop up on my surfboard. Running was just like kind of a pain. Like you're carrying around 40 to 45 pounds of extra weight when you're running. My life is so much better now, not just because I've lost the weight, but because of the consequences of losing the weight. Charles: Like I am much more at peace with my body now than I was before.

A- and, and I don't think if somebody had cancer or depression, we would certainly not say to them, "It is a moral failing to use chemotherapy or to take an antidepressant." We would say, "Look, your body, your body is off-kilter a little bit or something's happening and this is a tool that helps you, helps you live the life that you want." Charles: And that's what I think GLP-1s are. I'm not saying that it, it is the cure-all for everything and I'm not saying that everyone should be on a s- on a GLP-1, but I am saying it's a tool that is available and it's at least been effective for me and, and many other people and we shouldn't stigmatize wanting to use that tool or say like you're not body positive because you don't like yourself when you're 45 pounds overweight.

Charles: Just Dan: to stay with that for a second, and I'm not, I'm not... I'm nonpartisan here and um, but I'll just for the sake of argument do my best to embody the other side. Are you familiar with the whole idea of intuitive eating? Charles: A little bit. A little bit, but feel free to educate me how you- Dan: Yeah ... Charles: what you mean by it. Dan: And I apologize to my friend Evelyn Tribole who's the, one of the progenitors of intuitive eating. I will do my best to describe it but I'll probably screw it up.

Um, it basically the idea is you should eat whatever you want whenever you want with a background, uh, uh, of like gentle nutrition. That's the term she used. Dan: Like understanding you, y- we all know the basics of nutrition but if you give yourself permission to eat the french fries, to eat the Oreos, whatever, whatever you want, over time once the permission structure is there, and I've actually seen this a little bit in my life when I've been kind of on my intuitive eating game, that's how the war ends.

Dan: Uh, that's actually one of the two mechanisms by which the war ends. One is you stop telling yourself french fries are sinful. Um, and then what happens is, um, it, it doesn't become that big of a deal. You're not-- The food noise goes down because you have given yourself permission, and then eventually you start to see, like, I don't feel good when I eat a bunch of french fries, so I don't want to eat those french fries right now. Dan: I wanna, I wanna eat maybe two or three, but I understand that if I eat a balanced diet, I will feel better.

So that's one part of it. The other part of it is, um, you stop, uh, being suckered by the incredibly toxic cultural messages that are being sent around, um, how a body should look. I mean, if you look over history, there are periods of time where voluptuous bodies, Rubenesque bodies, uh, were celebrated, and now we're in the sort of more in the waif zone. Dan: Yeah, and then the third piece of it actually that I should add in is that diet culture, that's the terminology folks use in this world, is, um- driving a wedge between us and our bodies, where we've lost touch with our satiety cues because we're following somebody else's eating rules.

Um, and if you combi- wrap all of this up into a package, you can change your relationship to your body. Dan: It's not toxic positivity, it's actually just like being in touch with, uh, yourself and your physiological cues. Um, and that I think the i- the intuitive eating folks would argue is a better strategy than GLP-1. What are they getting wrong? Charles: I, I don't think they're necessarily getting anything wrong. I think for people who intuitive eating works for them, that they have this like feedback loop in their head that they say like, "Actually I don't like the french fries 'cause it makes me feel, makes me feel gross," that they don't need anything else besides intuitive eating.

Charles: And, and one of my sons is this way, right? Like his entire life he has never... Like you put a, uh, some ice cream in front of him and he'll eat three bites and then say like, "Oh, that's good, I'm done." But I ha- I have 45 years of trying to do intuitive eating and I never learned the lesson, right? And we would never... Charles: And, and I think that's probably just 'cause my body is different from my son's body. 'Cause we... And again, glucagon, we know that glucagon and insulin is d- different from person to person.

We would never just say to someone who has a history of alcoholism in their family, we would never say, "Oh, just do intuitive drinking," right? Charles: Like, "Don't, don't, don't worry about what you're drinking. Just like, just like u- understand, just do it intuitively. Your, your body will learn." Yeah, what they've learned is that they like, really like drinking and they drink too much. They become dependent on it. And so I'm not saying that intuitive eating is wrong at all, and I am not saying that anyone who, who is listening or is in this world who doesn't struggle with food should necessarily think about a GLP-1.

Charles: But I do think that there are a lot of people like me. Like literally, I remember in my 20s, um, I remember my birthday was coming up and someone asked me what I wanted for my birthday. Again, I'm in my 20s, right? And I'm suc- I'm a successful reporter at that point. And like the thing I didn't say but I thought to myself was like, "If I could have anything for my birthday, it would be to be 20 pounds lighter." Charles: Not, not because I think it would make me look better, but just because I think I would feel healthier, and I knew that losing 20 pounds would just be this constant uphill battle.

Intuitive eating does not get me to where I want to be, and I think there's probably other people like me. When it comes to, like, intuitive reading or intuitive drinking, it works perfectly for me. Charles: Like, I, I don't need a structure around my reading. I actually don't need a structure around my drinking. I've never had a problem with that. And, and so I'm not saying that someone like me shouldn't use this intuitive sense, but I think part of u- knowing ourselves and genuinely loving ourselves and being aware of ours- our own body is knowing where our intuition oftentimes fails to be enough.

Charles: And, like, we do this in life all the time, right? Like, when, when somebody cuts me off on the freeway, my intuition is to, like, give them the finger and my... I turn to my wife and she says, "It's not that big a deal." We know when our intuition doesn't work so well for us, and we know when it does work well. And for some people, I think intuitive eating is not the answer, and in those cases something like a GLP-1 or just a structured habit change program might help.

Dan: You've mentioned SSRIs and depression a couple of times. I am not currently on an SR- SSRI, although I have been for mu- big chunks of my life. I'm on another drug that is an, a different type of antidepressant. It's, um, trazodone it's called. Anyway, um, I'm only saying that because for people like me who have had a lifelong struggle with depression, also anxiety, um, isn't there some risk to a GLP-1 that, uh, you know, there can be a kind of flattening of your affect? Charles: I'll tell you what the research says, and, and, and it, it's worth noting that SSRIs, um, that they operate in a very different way than a peptide, um, which is not to say SSRIs are bad.

Like, I've taken an SSRI before, and I thought it was, it was fantastic. Um, but it, it can have, like, long-term effects af- even after you discontinue the drug. Charles: A peptide tends to, because it's just a chain of amino acids, it tends to kind of just break down over time in a, in a, in a way that it's easier to expel. Um, but that being said, as far as I'm aware in, in looking at the research, there's no evidence that that's true. What people do report on a GLP-1, and I can kind of attest to this myself, is that there's sometimes an anhedonic effect around, around food and cravings.

Charles: So I will say that on a G- I used to love food, like I used to love eating. I used to like really look forward to that feeling of like fullness and like satiation that I'd get after like eating a big bowl of pasta. That's definitely diminished for me. Like I, I, I enjoy food a little bit less now, and I will actually say I actually eat way more sweets now, in part because I can. Charles: I'm just consuming less, so it, it has less impact on me.

But in part I think because like my body sort of wants these strong flavors. But there does not appear to be any research that I'm familiar with that says that use of GLP-1 creates an anhedonic effect around things like depression, right? And that kind of makes sense when you think about it because like what the SSRI does, antracene does for instance, is it influences the amount of serotonin within our brain. Charles: There's another, um, type of, of, uh, antidepressant that plays with the dopamine levels in our brain.

The GLP-1s don't really seem to affect serotonin or dopamine. What they seem to affect is, is this craving that And again, we don't really understand completely what's happening. From the research I have seen, the long-term consequences of GLP-1 use, and they've been in use for, you know, 15 years now, they don't seem correlated with impacting mental health, although they do seem correlated with impacting pleasure in certain behaviors like food consumption or gambling or drinking. Dan: I'm aware that there, there are people listening to this thinking, you know, I, I, I'd be interested in trying it, but it's really expensive and I can't afford it.

Charles: Yeah. No, that's totally fair. So one of the things that we know is that about 80% pe- of people who started on a GLP-1, they discontinue it within about two years. Charles: And for some people it's just because, like, they feel like they've changed and they don't need it anymore. For some people it's the expense. Um, and that is a legitimate thing and, and hopefully the cost of the drugs will come down. It, this is the other reason I decided to, to work with Noom, is because this microdosing does create a more affordable path towards getting GLP-1s.

Charles: But I would say anyone who's listening who's, like, struggling with the financial element of it, there are lots and lots of resources out there to help bring down the cost of GLP-1s. I get my GLP-1 from a compounder. I don't get it from one of the big companies, and it's, it's less expensive because I get it from a compounder, and it's a compounder that I know and that I've researched and that I trust. Charles: But I would say yes, that the cost is a real issue.

Um, there's a lot of work going on, uh, around the White House. The, th- this White House isn't so great on this stuff, but, like, the people who, who are normally around public health, there's been a lot of work about trying to, um make these more affordable because, because it can have such a large impact on, on particularly at-risk populations who are dealing with diseases related to obesity. Charles: So hopefully that's gonna change, but that's a super legitimate issue to raise, and hopefully it'll get better.

Dan: The first time you were on the show, we talked about your book, uh, bestseller called Supercommunicators. Um, I, I'll call back to the beginning of this conversation when you were asking me all these questions about habits, my desire to change my, uh, bedtime routine, um, and go to bed earlier. Dan: You were doing a great job of, of what is called reflective listening. You were repeating back what I was saying. Um, and that is one of the, um, hallmarks of, uh, Supercommunicator. But I'm interested how, uh, how we could apply, uh, what, what you've been teaching us around habits to our communication skills because many of us wanna get better at talking in a way that other people are more likely to listen and listening in a way that other people are more likely to talk.

Charles: Well, first let me say thank you for, for complimenting my listening. I will say my wife, um, sometimes disagrees with you. Like, it's very frequent that we're having a conversation, she's like, "You know, there's this book you might wanna read about communication-" "... 'cause you don't seem to be doing it very well." Charles: So, so it is very gratifying that, that you feel like I'm doing it. Um, yeah. So one of the things that's, I think, really interesting when it comes to communication and habit formation, m- much of what we do, m- much of how we communicate and why we communicate is built around habits.

And one of the things that we can do is we can pay attention to what rewards certain communicative habits are delivering to us and what rewards we want to be more rewarding. Charles: So for instance, i- if you're someone who just complains to other people, like it's, it's your... This is how you deal with anxiety, right? Is you, like, sort of voice your complaints, and you're not actually even looking for the person's advice or you're not looking for them to empathize. You're just using them as a sounding board, which usually fou- feels somewhat unrewarding to them.

Charles: Then the reward there is that you are using communication as an emotional management device for yourself. And it might be burdensome on the other person, but you can probably achieve that same reward instead of by verbalizing what you're anxious about, writing down what you're anxious about, right? I- if we identify the habits that are pushing us into some communication behaviors that we don't like, and we begin asking ourselves what's the cue and what's the reward, it helps us change those communication habits. Charles: One of my favorite examples of this is this thing called kitchen sinking Which as marriage therapists have found, this is the single worst behavior in a marriage.

This predicts divorce more than anything else, is that when we fight about one thing, it becomes a fight about everything, right? So like we start by talking about like, "Where are we gonna go for Thanksgiving?" Charles: And within five minutes it's like, "Well, your mother hates me, and I don't earn, you don't earn enough money for us to take like a..." Right? So a fight about one thing becomes a fight about everything. It's really, really toxic, and that's a habit, a c- a conversational habit that people can fa- fall into.

And so if you take a step back and you say like, "Look. Charles: Okay, when we start talking about Thanksgiving, the cue is I feel this emotion," right? "I feel this anxiety. And so instead of starting to lash out at you and blame you for the thing, what I'm gonna do is I'm gonna say, 'Okay, look. I'm feeling this anxiety. That's a cue for me to lash out at you.' What I'm gonna do instead is I'm just gonna let you know I'm feeling anxious about this, and the best way for us to, to avoid that anxiety is like let's just talk about Thanksgiving.

Charles: Let's not talk about moms. Let's not talk about money. Like, let's put all that off to the side and just talk about Thanksgiving. That's gonna help me bring down my anxiety." And, and afterwards when we have the con- conversation, giving myself a reward and saying, "Look, I just wanna thank you. Like, we decided where we're going for Thanksgiving. Charles: We weren't shouting at each other. I think we should feel really good about that. Like, uh, like, like e- even though this is a small thing, like thank you for helping me have a good conversation, and I wanna compliment you on what a good job you did, and compliment myself When we start becoming aware of our conversational habits is when we get power over changing them.

Charles: Because so much of conversation and so much of habit happens outside of c- deliberate thought, right? Like, the best conversations you've ever had, if I looked at a transcript of them, they would look like a total mess, right? People are interrupting each other, uh, ideas are coming up and then they're getting discarded without really getting resolved. Charles: Good conversations are messy. And the more that we just have a chance to step back and say, like, "Why did I say that thing that I said? What was the cue there?

Like, what reward was it giving me?" The more it means that the next time we go into conversation, we're in better control of where that conversation's going. Dan: Just to go with the example you listed before, if, if I can develop the habit of noticing anxiety arising in difficult conversations, um, and instead of the old... That's the cue, is the anxiety, um, instead of the old routine of discharging that energy by getting into a fight, um, if I can make a new behavior, which is, you know, I'm just gonna report on my emotional state and request, um, that we put sort of guardrails on the conversation, then I get a reward of an actually a successful conversation, and I can triple down on the reward by congratulating myself and my conversation partner.

Charles: That was very good reflective listening. You're, you're a pro at this too . No, you're exactly right. And in fact, what I would say is it's, that's not the only reward. When, when you, in a conversation, when you feel that anxiety and you lash out, the reward is a sense of relief, right? Momentary relief. It's not gonna be relief for long, 'cause they're gonna get upset. Charles: But if I can tell you, like, "No, it's not my fault, it's your fault," I'm feeling this burst of relief.

And once I'm aware of this cue and this re- reward, that anxiety and relief, now I can say, like, "Okay, instead of lashing out at you when I feel that anxiety, I'm just gonna say, 'I'm feeling a little bit anxious right now, and so I might not, I might not be able to say what I'm thinking, but I, I, I wanna ask you to just be with me for a second and be, be forgiving and be understanding.'" Charles: I'm feeling that same sense of r- of relief, right?

What I'm doing now is I, I know why I'm lashing out at you, is because it gives me a reward. There's other paths to that same reward that are healthier. And then you're right, and in addition, I'm reinforcing it because now we had a good conversation, because now we've complimented each other, because now I'm happier The, the more we're aware of just what's happening inside of our own heads, the better off we are. Charles: And psychologists often refer to this as meta conversations. So with my wife, for instance, when I come home and I start complaining about my day, she will often say to me, "Do you want me to help you solve this problem, or do you need me just to listen and, like, hear, hear what happened?" And usually I'm like, "No, no, no, I just want you to listen," right?

Charles: Like, "I want you to hear what, what a jerk Jim was to me." This meta conversation, this habit that we've fallen into of asking the other person what they need, that gives us all the same rewards that we had previously, but in a better package. That's kind of the power of understanding habit formation, is it allows you... Charles: You still want those rewards. Those cues still exist in your life. It just gives you the cha- the opportunity to figure out what the behavior is that connects that cue and reward, rather than just having it kind of happen to you without your, without your permission.

Dan: Yeah, I've seen it in my own life. You know, I'm a, as you know, 'cause we've ta- we've talked about it right here on the show, I'm a big believer in, um, you know, the art and science of, of conversation and communication skills. Dan: And, well, first of all, there's the reward of kind of self-mastery of, um, learning something and executing on it, but much more, on a much deeper level, there's just seeing the immediate and long-term benefits in your relationships Is a really powerful reward and much more powerful than the, as you called it before, the temporary pleasure of, uh, releasing your anxer, anxi- anger or anxiety.

Dan: 100%. Charles: And I know, I know that you, y- you, you espouse this, um, as much as the research does, that, like, so much of our happiness and our health and our longevity and our success, so much of it is bound up in our relationships with other people. And most of the ways that we make those relationships become true is through conversation, right? Charles: We, we can hang out next to each other, we can watch TV with each other, but it's like a, a dialogue like this that really brings us joy.

And so understanding how to have those dialogues better, understanding how to build habits that makes those dialogues easier, like a habit of asking real questions, right? Charles: Or a habit of reflective listening to make the other person know that you want to hear what they're saying. Those habits, like they will just yield rewards for the rest of your life. I mean, they're what makes life worth living. Dan: Well, this has been a great conversation, and I really appreciate your time. Dan: All right, we're gonna try, uh, something new.

This show has been around for more than 10 years and we rarely change it. Uh, but we're, we're atte- attempting to institute a final segment, uh, that the, the working title for it is What's Good. So, uh, this is just an opportunity to hear from the guests, like what is one thing in your life that's good right now? Dan: Like, it could be a TV show, it could be you just got a new dog, it could be, um, uh, some little practice you are weaving into your life.

You, you do yours, I'll do mine, and, uh, and, uh, we'll see if it works. Charles: So okay, so here's what's good in my life right now. I have basically decided that, um, I will allow myself to read whatever trashy things I wanna read, right? Charles: Like, like so much of my reading, like, I, like, wanna read, like, the Pulitzer Prize winners and the X, Y, and Z, but when before I go to sleep, I'm allowed to read anything I want guilt-free, and I've been reading this series of books that I'm sure many of your listeners are familiar with called Dungeon Crawler Carl.

Charles: It is a ridiculous yeah, yeah. It's r- Dungeon Crawler Carl. It's actually one of the most popular, like, best-selling books out there right now. It's, like, a weird sci-fi fantasy thing, and I absolutely love it. Like, it's just, it makes going to sleep, like, I look forward to getting into bed. That's how I get into bed by 10:30, is I, like, tell myself, "You can read 10 pages of Dungeon Crawler Carl." Charles: So that's what's been good in my life. But w- but what's good in yours?

Dan: Dungeon Crawler Carl. Yeah. That is, um, a mouthful. Uh- ... and I feel culturally illiterate for not having heard of it, but okay, duly noted. I Charles: think this speaks well of you, to be honest. Dan: Well, I watched a docuseries recently. It's hard to call it, uh, something good because it's on a very dark subject. Dan: It- it's the, it's on Paramount Plus, and it's, like, the re... I think it's called The Real Wolf of Wall Street. I love the movie The Wolf of Wall Street, um, i- i- in part as, um, a former, um, uh, drug abuser, it's fun to watch a bunch of people take fistfuls of Quaaludes.

Um, but it's, it's a great Martin Scorsese movie about, uh, the founder of a Wall Street, of a stock brokerage that were peddling shitty stocks to people and, and, uh, they were all losing money. Dan: Anyway, there's a three-part docuseries that expli- explains the, the real story behind the movie, 'cause it was based on a real guy named Jordan Belfort, who did not cooperate in this docuseries. Um, and what I liked about it, as horrible as the story was, 'cause this guy cost so much, uh, he caused so much damage and cost people so much money.

Dan: What I liked about it, aside from just the vicarious thrills of the, of the debauchery of this guy's life, was it, it, from a Buddhist standpoint, this was taking, um, the human capacity for greed to the ultimate level. So the Buddha talked about these three poisons in the human mind, greed, hatred, or delusion, which is just basically not seeing clearly the nature of reality. Dan: Greed is a very easy thing to understand, um, and, uh, when you, when you, when somebody is unrestrained in their greed, this guy was making hundreds of millions of dollars at other people's expense and brutalizing his wife and family and his friends, uh, many of whom he ratted on, and m- mistreating, uh, women at, like, an epic scale.

Dan: When you watch- When you watch what happens when the mind is unrestrained in this way, it is very interesting and it is a teaching in and of itself. Okay, I said a lot there. Does any of that make sense? Charles: No, I love that. I, and I also loved that movie, The Wolf of Wall Street, and I'm gonna go watch that documentary tonight. Charles: That sounds, that sounds fascinating. Um, and I particularly love the, like the, I love the Buddhist element. I- is that in the documentary, the Buddhist element, or is that something that you're kind of bringing to it in your viewing of it?

Dan: Fully me bringing to it. I don't think, uh, the makers of, uh, true crime docs, uh, have that as a background, uh, heuristic. Charles: It, like we all struggle. We all struggle with like, again, to get back to instincts. Like I have an instinctual trigger to be greedy, right? Or to be, to engage in hate or to demonize the other person. And I think anything that, that helps me recognize that that is a path that, that there are alternatives to is something that's just so...

Charles: I just find it to be really meaningful. So thank you. I'm gonna go watch that tonight. Dan: Before I let you go, can you just, uh, remind everybody of the names of your various books and anything else you want us to know about? Charles: Yeah, absolutely. Um, so I wrote The Power of Habit and Supercommunicators. I have a newsletter, um, called The Science of Better that if anyone is interested in it, every other week it sort of sends out science-based, um, insights on certain types of, of, uh, certain aspects of life.

Charles: And then if anyone's interested in Noom, um, you can just find it at, at N-O-O-M.com. Dan: Where do we sign up for your newsletter? Charles: Oh, if you just go to my website, charlesduhigg, D-U-H-I-G-G,.com, you'll find it there. It's on Substack, so people can find it by just searching for The Science of Better. Dan: Well, such a pleasure. Dan: Uh, really appreciate your time. Charles: Absolutely. It's s- it's always such a treat to get a chance to spend some time with you. Thank you for, for having me.

Dan: I wanna thank everybody who worked so hard to make this show. Ten Percent Happier is produced by Tara Anderson and Eleanor Vasili. Our recording and engineering is handled by the great folks over at Pod People. Dan: Lauren Smith is our managing producer. Marissa Schneiderman is our senior producer. DJ Cashmere is our executive producer. And Nick Thorburn of the band Islands wrote our theme. Also, one quick ask before I let you go. Head on over, please, to danharris.com to sign up for my weekly newsletter. Every Monday, I drop a little bit of goodness into your inbox.

Dan: Mondays, especially Monday mornings, can be super stressful, so that is when I drop in one useful nugget that you can operationalize in your life immediately, either from ancient wisdom like Buddhism or from modern science. It's short, it's easy to read, it's worth it, it's free. Sign up at danharris.com.