The Real Reason Achieving More Won't Solve Your Problems | NBA Champion Kevin Love

Key Takeaway

Stop moving the goalpost on success. Kevin Love spent years thinking his next achievement would finally heal his anxiety and depression—from 10 years in the NBA to 12, to 15, to 18. The truth? You can't achieve your way out of emotional pain. Without doing the inner work, you return to your baseline after each dopamine hit, left with the same unhealed brain. True peace comes from addressing your nervous system and emotions, not from collecting more accolades.

Episode Overview

NBA champion Kevin Love opens up about facing athletic mortality after 18 seasons, the anxiety that still lives in his body at a '5 or 6' daily, and why achieving more never healed his depression. He shares his nine-year estrangement from his parents, reconciling with his father before his death, and how fatherhood is teaching him what his basketball career never could—how to actually feel.

Full Transcript

Transcript of The Real Reason Achieving More Won't Solve Your Problems | NBA Champion Kevin Love from The School of Greatness. Auto-generated from episode audio; may contain minor errors.

I just kept thinking achieving more would make me feel better. It would take these dark feelings away and this feeling that still lives in the pit of my stomach. I will get rid of this anxiety because I will have achieved this. And yet that's kind of where depression arises when you think that your brain is going to change. You go back to that that baseline after that huge dopamine hit and that achievement and you're left with the same brain that you've always had without doing the work.

He is a five-time NBA All-Star and Olympic gold medalist, 2016 NBA champion, and one of the most important voices in the mental health conversation. Please welcome Kevin Love. You spent 9 years not speaking to both your mom and dad. A lot of times I say less friends, less both, but in the case it happened to be my family, but on the other side of that, it was so many great moments in me finding myself and being comfortable in my own skin. What do you think is at the root that you need to really heal?

I think it's I'm so glad that you're here. I've been trying to have you on for a while, but you're a busy guy, always, you know, playing in season. U but we have a number of things in common. One, we're both athletes. Two, you know, you lived a long time in Ohio. You won a championship in Ohio, eight and a half years. years. years. I'm I'm from Ohio. Uh thank you for your service of winning, bringing a championship to Ohio. We're both uh have two daughters.

Yes. Yes. Yes. And we both lost our fathers recently. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And we've both been through our own healing journeys and talking about what it means to be a man and deal with a lot of psychological and emotional wounds that we don't know how to navigate or we didn't know how to navigate until we started opening up. Right. So I want to acknowledge you first Kevin for being a voice of possibilities for so many people specifically men that you know us growing up we didn't have a a space typically around our parents or around our peers our peers our peers to talk about our feelings or emotions to talk about the confusion in our heart and our minds of why we're feeling something.

And so most of our childhood grew up being driven to prove people wrong, driven to figure out how to overcome the anger emotion because we didn't know how to communicate anything else and driven to succeed to prove our value. you. So, I want to acknowledge you for the last seven, eight years, opening up about your own mental and emotional challenges, emotional challenges, emotional challenges, being public about it, and creating a space for lots of not only young men, but also women to start to say, what can I do to start looking within myself about these emotions and mental challenges, start using them as a voice to my peers or getting help and improve my life.

So, I want to acknowledge you for the journey you've been on. Yeah, I appreciate it. No, it's uh very meaningful to be here. I think it takes a tribe, takes an army, and it's an accumulation having people like yourself in the space speak about it. So, how many episodes again have we done? I think we're like 1,800. So, 1,800. I'm h very happy to be a part of this. No, just continuing to to try and keep moving the needle forward. It's great, man. Important work. And I'm curious because, you know, it's a couple things that are fresh for you on your mind right now.

You just finished the season for yourself. We were talking about this idea of athlete mortality. Yes. mortality. Yes. mortality. Yes. You know, you don't know how many more years you have left, if you're supposed to keep playing, if you're not supposed to keep playing. Your heart says you should, but you have two young daughters. daughters. daughters. I know now that I want to be around my daughters a lot who are six months old. First off, what is the main thing you're feeling and thinking, you know, I guess a couple days after the season about your future?

Yeah, I think facing athletic mortality as as you know or anybody that has ever gone through that, which most people who have ever played sports, whether it be they finish senior year high school and they're done with their varsity team and their season ends and they're trying to figure out what they're doing next or if they're going to school and college or what they're going to study or what their life is going to look like after their sport and in some cases like my own when I started playing organized basketball since probably, you know, five or six years old that this has been my identity for 30 plus years and what that's going to look like after my career is over and finishing my 18th season on Sunday.

We played the Lakers and final buzzer went off and went to the locker room and everybody went on their separate ways. All of these things and not to say it happened in that moment because it had been leading up to to that as well and the season before. What is my life going to look like after, you know, I throw those sneakers over the telephone wire, right? I take those off. I lay the jersey up before one more time. What is my identity? Who am I?

what is my life going to look like moving forward? Because yes, I am a father. There's going to be a lot of uh opportunities for me outside um of the world of basketball. And I've been able to build this this legacy piece which is the Kevin Love fund and trying to impact people's lives uh like you have. And um it's still very scary because that identity piece is a real thing. And it almost feels like uh a death. Like I lost my lost my lost my my father last year.

And it's not really like I'm comparing the two. Although that hits close to home because he also played in the NBA. He played college at uh was a two-time all-American both in high school and college. But it does feel like it's a a huge loss is coming. So, I think that also adds into the anticipatory grief as well, and that's what I'm dealing with. So, I want to balance my time with my family and my daughters. Do I want to play another year and and be away from them as they're changing?

My oldest daughter's two and a half, she'll be three in June. Uh youngest turned one on Valentine's Day. How do I want to balance that time? Have I done enough? Uh I look back and regret. We talked about inaction and uh and action and how that lives in regret. But um there's a lot there that is is being considered and I think that there's high and low in in all of those emotions that that um have me contemplating and looking at a lot and looking at myself in the mirror and asking myself how am I really feeling in this moment?

this moment? this moment? How are you really feeling in this moment? moment? moment? Confused. Confused. Confused. Really Really Really confused. I think that came up before we we came on. It's like confusion is, you know, an emotion and and something I don't like, you know, choose to explore that often. that often. that often. You want to be like, I think I'm confused. I'm confused. I'm confused. I'm living in a little bit of fear. And it's not for or lack of opportunity, but I don't know what my life is without basketball being that first love and that that priority.

I'm not saying now that I'm in fatherhood and I'm a husband that it's not it's not my number one priority, but I've always kept the main thing and I've chased thing the main thing and I've chased that and everything else I've wanted in life has chased me right back. So, what is my life going to look like outside of basketball? I don't know. So, it's it's confusing. um to say I'm not scared would would um be a lie. But on the other side of that, I'm just very grateful and hopeful that things will work out as they should because I've I've I've learned a lot and doing this work on myself.

I'm a lot more comfortable in my own skin. And um you know, I always say only by admitting who we are do we get what we want. I be very honest about that. I'm very honest about how I'm feeling right now. But still, it's I' I'd be lying to you if I said it wasn't a scary thing to consider. And it's it's now crept into my conscious and subconscious every single day. single day. single day. Really? Really? Really? Every day. Every day. Every day. What's the thing you're most afraid of about the unknown of the past?

I don't care about being forgotten. I mean, I think we live in a world now where even the biggest stories and news cycles will be, you know, kind of recycled and and chewed up and spit out in in a week, maybe two weeks, right? And I'm not worried about being remembered or how I'll be looked at within the NBA. I just I uh or within the game of basketball. I think it's um some of it may be trauma related. Some of it may be just um that anxiety of of um you know picking up the ball all the way through middle school, high school, college, NBA to now.

Just I've almost played half my life in the NBA. So, like what is it going to be after the fact? Will my family be the same? Will my girls be taken care of? And I don't know. It's it's it's not necessarily necessarily necessarily uh an identity crisis. It's not necessarily something that um you know, scares me not having basketball in my life. It's just more the unknown. Uh I think scares a lot of people and gives a lot of people anxiety. And I'm I'm no different.

I'm the same way. And there's probably a lot of people that are watching or listening that are like whatever younger, maybe haven't been successful yet, maybe don't have the money that might be watching this saying, "This is Kevin Love. He's won all these accomplishments. He's a gold medalist, NBA champion. He's got all the money in the world related to most people. How could he have any stress or fear or worry based on everything he's created? He's healthy. He's handsome. He's got the family. like how can he be stressful if he's stressed out and uncertain and fearful and I'm a 20-year-old and I've got no money and nothing going for me.

I'm screwed. Some there might be people thinking that and what would you say to them who are saying, "Man, your your life is made, Kevin." Kevin." Kevin." Right? Right? Right? You know, You know, You know, well, I would say, you know, it happened or I can remember I use this um these references all the time about Kate Spade and Anthony Bourdain dating all the way back to uh 2018. And so it was really, you know, I had my panic attack, very public panic attack in 2017, November 5th of that year at home um in Cleveland and uh 2018 started the fun, but we went to the finals uh lost and I can remember 2017 you lost.

No, 2018. So 2017 was the start of the season and then 2018 was the finals. So Anthony Bourdain had had died the morning of game four, the NBA finals. Really? And um wow wow wow I can just remember that he was a guy like I always mention it I've mentioned it a number of times spoken at length about it like he was guy you know he felt like he lived vicariously through him he had the greatest job in the world and and and uh you know was in a great relationship and obviously had suffered with addiction had come through that and now was like universally well-liked and well loved and seemed like he had everything right and yet I think it was Brian Cranston who said it I always reference him is like if you just look at all this and look at the face of depression Everybody's smiling, everybody's happy.

There's all these comedians or these people in in uh the public eye that seemingly have it all. Like Kate Spade had said, you know, I I I didn't speak about it because I thought it would hurt my brand, right? And it sounds familiar. And Brian Cranon had said, you know, success is not immune to depression. So like it doesn't matter who you are. There's, you know, I always say there's nobody benefits from withholding compassion and um, you know, epigenetics are real. We spoke about that as well.

So, at a cellular level, depending on who your family is, who you come from, um, um, um, you know, these generational cycles, it can quite literally live with inside of you. But again, I don't dismiss anybody's struggle because everybody has their own story. Everybody's going to go through grief, the loss of a parent. Everybody's going to go through some sort of trauma at some point in their life, whether it be young and their brains are still growing and they're still understanding who they are and their nervous system is is is growing as well.

So, I would hope that people understand that we are tribal beings and we're all in this together. So, and just like I've practiced gratitude all of this. Yeah. And I think it's also we were talking about the documentary Weight of Gold, which I've mentioned so many times on this show, so I'm glad you brought it up because up because up because You know, a lot of times high achieving individuals like yourself or anyone at an elite level, they've usually come from some type of wound or some type of trauma where they're driven to overcompensate.

You know, that was me. me. me. Uh to prove people wrong, to like whatever to go for this thing and and stand up for their their dreams. That conditioning can teach us how to be driven to accomplish, but it doesn't teach us how to navigate our emotions. No, No, No, it doesn't teach and it doesn't teach you how to navigate success once you have it. So this idea of the weight of gold, the documentary which everyone should watch talks about these Olympic gold medalists or medalists who go through extreme depression within months after their Olympic medal or the Olympics and a lot of them commit suicide within the first year or two after the Olympics.

So it doesn't just because you succeed doesn't mean you're happy, right? It doesn't mean you have peace in your heart. And part of that drive to success might be because you're lacking it, right? right? right? And we think once we accomplish, we'll feel better, but that doesn't usually happen. You sometimes feel worse, right? Did you ever feel worse the more you accomplish? accomplish? accomplish? Yes. And I've talked about that, too, because you think it's going to fill a void. Yes. And you think that you're going to you truly believe in your heart that I can just achieve my way out of depression or I will get rid of this anxiety because I will have achieved this.

But like we're so good at um I was even talking to somebody about the other day because I just finished my 18th season like how long do you want to go? I was like well when I first came into the league it was 10 years then it became 12 years then it became 15 and 18 I thought might as well make it to 20. So you keep moving that goalpost and you keep keep keep dangling the carrot outside of what you consider success. I just kept thinking achieving more would you know make me feel better.

it would take these heavy and and dark feelings away and this feeling that still lives in the pit of my stomach as we talked about every single day that I continue to work on. And yet that just wasn't the case. I mean, it was actually very unhealthy for me to keep thinking like that and keep thinking I was going to establish more. I was going to have to make more money. I was going to have to get all these accolades or I was going to have to just keep putting numbers on the board in whatever area that I thought would give me give me give me fulfillment, right?

And yet that's kind of where depression arises or like comes up from dormcancy is when you think that your your your brain is going to change or you think these your nervous system all these things are going to change within you and yet you establish your you know you go back to that that baseline after that huge dopamine hit and that achievement and you're left with the same brain that you've always had without doing the work. So, it makes sense that you'd get to even a more sucking place hoping that that would heal you because you had an expectation.

I'm gonna feel better. Correct. Correct. Correct. I did all this work for years to accomplish. I over I slayed every dragon. dragon. dragon. I'm the winner of whatever this game is. Why do I feel worse? Right? Right? Right? It's because you had this expectation and you still are the same person, right? right? right? With just more shiny objects. And we talked about sprinters, too, right? Imagine you run the 100 meter and you're training for your entire life. But even if you go from Olympics to Olympics and it's a 4-year window, then you're like, is this is this all there is?

I thought this was supposed to heal me. I thought this was supposed to make me happy. And it's not to say that in that moment or and long term you're not going to be very proud and feel a certain way about it. But to think that inherently that in itself is going to heal you, heal you, heal you, it's just not the case. It's not the case. And you see it time and time again. On a scale of 1 to 10 currently in your life, how much pain do you feel in your in your body, in your nervous system, and in your emotions?

10 being like unbearable pain, unbearable pain, unbearable pain, one being you have complete inner peace. Where are you on that scale? So, you know, I talked about my knees. My knees would Yeah. Scale of 1 to 10. Not physical pain. I would tell you different. Yeah. Yeah. Not physical pain but the nervous system emotional, psychological. Okay. So I would say on a daily basis I'm my nervous system and that feeling I told you of like that pit of anxiety in my stomach probably hums at a five or a six.

six. six. Okay. Okay. Okay. Which to me is like healthy. And I always talk about I don't know if it's the anxiety or it's like the appropriate fear. you know that that feeling of being out in public and agorophobia and um you know public embarrassment or my I'm doing something wrong or people are going to look at me and people are going to figure me out like that has become a lot better. I'm I mean can't tell you since since since how much better I've gotten with that since I started doing the work in 2017 that I I actually not only feel com more comfortable in my own skin but I always say like you can't use me against me.

Like I've I've laid out most of my cards. cards. cards. You yourself. You yourself. You yourself. Do you say this, too? I mean, I've said it before, but are you literally say about this 8 mile thing? I have it. Hold on a second. You You do this, too? I'm like, you you guys I use it. I'm like, you know, be rabbit when he's just like I live in a trailer with my mom. I'm a bum, you know? I I use this all the time because like you what are you going to say, Papa Doc?

You're just going to sit there and be like, I got nothing. I've said I mean, I wrote a whole book about all this stuff. I've been the stuff I told you in here. Like, I've shared all this in a book. I've shared it publicly on the podcast. Like all my traumas and wounds and fears and insecurities. You can't outshare my traumas of me and my shame, right? You know, I've shared my you can't like you can't hurt me. Like it's if if I've already lived all that.

I've already put myself through the worst scenarios and worst so many times and that conflict or how that would look come from somebody else and I would just be like, "Yeah, okay." Well, Well, Well, you're right. you're right. you're right. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So, like what else? Yeah. Yeah. You want to You're not There's nothing you're going to do to hurt me. So that's fine. You're the only other person I've ever reference. 8 Mile. That's so funny. I love that because it's so true. It's so true.

So you feel like you're at a a five or a six every day, but it's a healthy five or six if that even exists. even exists. even exists. But there's still you say pain in the pit of your stomach. Yeah. Kind of chest area. And I take medications. Yeah. I have my SSRIs and those help. like the the anxiety and that feeling isn't coming out my extremities, right? And I'm not sweating and then having the anxiety that I'm I'm have something is going on and then sweat more and then I you know overheat and then that becomes this whole thing where I have to remove myself.

Um myself. Um myself. Um did that used to happen a lot? Yeah. Well, and also it would manifest as as as where I didn't have the language to be able to express myself when I was young. So, anybody that knows me knows I was rage rage rage fits. fits. fits. Rage fits. And that was what I saw from my father at home because he also didn't know know know um he you know that emotional intelligence wasn't taught to him at an early age. He only saw and knew what he knew and how to how to deal with it.

And you know we learn all these things from our parents. our parents. our parents. I mean speaking of your parents you told me before that you spent nine years not speaking to both your mom and dad. Just about about about roughly roughly nine years and this is when you when you when you were winning an NBA championship. I believe you won an Olympic gold medal during that time. So that was before Olympic gold medals 2012. 2012. 2012. Okay. Okay. So it was before you were still talking to them.

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Okay. Gotcha. But after that you stopped talking to them. Yeah. It was really around the Yeah. 2016 playoffs and and and finals. So we um you know and that's family dynamics are are are you know they're layered they're multifaceted and they're they're they're tough. I mean even my my my dad's side of the family it's well documented with the with the loves and even the Wilsons that um you know within the frame of rock and roll and what Brian Wilson and what Mike Love my uncle have have spoken about at length but also in their memoirs and autobiography like they you know there's a lot of trauma there.

There's a lot of emotional depth there. And um you know, even the Wilsons themselves have taken it to to you know, different levels and and and the loves. And my uncle has done an incredible job in navigating rock and roll in that space. And but he was, you know, he's been doing TM and transcendental meditation for I don't know 60 years. He's he's a you know, one of the OGs in that and done done really great. Um but still no I mean I think my dad caught a lot of that as well and there were times where you know the household there was full of landmines and you know if it was going to be screaming or something physical was going to happen or it was uh you know just landmines slam doors screaming all that stuff.

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All rights reserved. When did you feel like you needed to create a boundary and say like I need to cut them out or I need to have a boundary or like how did that come about inside of you to say okay enough is enough. This is not healthy for me to have this relationship at this season of life. Yeah, I think it was from my end needing to take a look at myself and understand that I needed to grow too and sometimes if if things aren't s uh excuse me adding up you need to start subtracting and I thought that in that case keeping my circle small um even a lot of times I say less friends less [ __ ] and in the case it it it happened to be my family but on the other side of that it was it was it was um um um it led to so any great moments in me finding myself and being comfortable in my own skin and going through that process were at the end of my father's life which was uh last April.

It was a beautiful moment of and of course everything wasn't figured out and there were some things that we we just wanted to put to the side and say hey let's focus on the good because I say a couple things can be I talked to Dr. cont about it. Like two things, so many things could be possible and and true at the same time. Like I didn't get what I needed, but I also had a great childhood and got what I needed as well, which was amazing.

Like I chose to my dad just had a 77th birthday on on April 9th. I we my mom and I, my brother and sister all chose to celebrate him. Wow, that's cool. And there was reconciliation and there was forgiveness at the end of it. And he was the guy I looked at as like my hero growing up and he was the one who handed me the basketball. But was he perfect? Was I have a perfect son? Was our relationship perfect? No. And um you know, I I needed that time in order to find myself and and to give myself um find the both both the good and the bad in it.

But also it it allowed me in my personal life to be a better father both from his success and even more so his failures. the same thing happened with my career through the the lens of of of his life and his career and then I think just overall satisfaction and and fulfillment looking at him. Um so again he in all of it he he taught me a lot. He's probably he's my greatest teacher. teacher. teacher. What was the greatest lesson he taught you on the empowering side and maybe the side that you didn't enjoy as much of what not to do?

So, in terms of basketball, because I say that's where he had the the the biggest influence on me was how to approach the gray game and also like aggressive will like going out there and it's become such a country club sport now where it's like if you can pay for the trainer, if you can pay for the strength and conditioning coach, if you can uh pay for travel basketball and all, you know, all these things that we couldn't afford, couldn't afford, couldn't afford, right? right? right?

um that he put me in a place to to to have a particular mindset. I didn't have the language to be able to like express myself and how I was feeling, but he channeled all of that rage and anger and showing me how to play and through his mind and his also his failures. He's like he was very open and uh admitted a lot about him not being able to he didn't work hard enough. He was a free spirit. he was, you know, playing for the Lakers and then then then uh and playing is a strong word with there and then uh you know touring with the Beach Boys in the summertime.

So like he wasn't there was no living the dream though. I mean he was living the dream but then you know his career only lasted just under five years and you know he he I think looked at me and sometimes I caught caught caught um you know let's call it some heat and some ugliness from him because he probably saw me and and thought I don't want my son to I guess fail like even though even though he made it in that way but he he didn't want me to end up like him.

He wanted me to have a long career, chase the game, put in the work, be a self-starter. Wow. self-starter. Wow. self-starter. Wow. And where he is freespirited and just kind of went to the beat of his own drum, he wanted me to be a a different way. So I think in that way he he taught me something different. And also I think on on on the the other side it was I mean both good and bad because like I we have daughters now and my my sister's uh uh uh the youngest of the three.

of older brother Col and younger sister Emily and he was so gentle with her, right? So he also like taught me that whereas like not to be how he was with like my brother um especially and still does but like looks like a love looks exactly like my dad did when he was born and growing up. So I'm like that probably has to be tough for him. And then, you know, for me, I was the the outlier, the high achiever, um, and kind of the the the kid that was the golden child, number one player in the country, the kid that, um, you know, had to be protected.

And while there some ways were instances where he didn't do that, in other ways, he was the guy that would, you know, take the bullet for me, stand in front of me. So, again, there's duality in in in both of it. There's a there's a balance, but you know, it's it's true that I did get what I need, but also didn't at the same time. Yeah. And how did it come about where you started to come back together, you know, before his He got sick. Yeah.

He got really sick. Um, yeah. I got cancer and um you know I I I you know we had again talked about and I mentioned it briefly at the beginning that um that um that um regret is tied up so much in inaction. I did not want to regret at the end of his life and then at the end of mine and in the short term, near-term and and and long term how I would feel about not having some of those conversations and forgiving. forgiving. forgiving.

Like that would be drinking my own poison, right? And then having some sort of reconciliation at the end of his life. So, life. So, life. So, and you got to have that. Yeah, it was probably the last Yeah. 16 months or so of of his life. 16 18 months. And then, you know, he went into hospice about um the last 6 weeks of his life and then, like I said, late uh April of last year had had passed away. Wow. Wow. Wow. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, it's almost been a year then.

How how are you feeling one year after his passing? his passing? his passing? Still confused. Last year was a uh probably the you know personally one of if not the hardest year um you know of of of my life because he you know had to watch his get his leg amputated and um you know at a certain point I forget that what the statistics are you know you break your hip past the age of 75 or maybe even 70 so like and then you have a a a a window a window of months I think it's six months or a year maybe and um you know he had broken his hip so that sped up the the the the process as well.

So, we had to get two surgeries within the course of four days and that was in um late October and and then early uh November of of of last year year year and then things just progressively got worse because it was apparent that he would never get out of his hospital bed again. So, we moved him home and um yeah, hospice um that's where my mom is just such an angel and a godsend. I don't know how she had the capacity to physical and emotional capacity to be able to actually take care of him.

She was a career nurse and I mean just I look at her with a whole new lens after that because she kept him alive for so long and was on his call on call for him 247. I mean it was really an unbelievable unbelievable unbelievable feat to watch. That's longevity right there. there. there. Oh my gosh. I've heard from a lot of people that say you truly don't become a man until you've lost your father and until you have kids. Yeah. And I lost my father four years ago and you lost yours a year ago and we both have young kids now, right?

right? right? Do you feel like in any way that's true for you that like now that you've lost your father and you're also a father, do you feel like you're stepping into being a man more? For sure. Especially we it's it's new for you having having daughters. You're six months in, right? With with with twins. So I mean you had two bang bang. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Uh and so I have a Yeah. Again, two and a half year old daughter and a year a year old.

Um and I think it's just completely changed my perspective and and they say it softens you when you have daughters, too. It's funny like I'll watch a news story because of course the news is so happy and or I'll I'll watch a movie that um and I think it make I don't know what people would say or if there's like science or data behind this but hopefully it means I'm emotionally intelligent. And it's like I am such more so much more of like a wet person now than I have daughters and I'm softer because of it.

And I see things through a a different lens when I see these stories about um not only family conflict but loss and movies with you know heavy emotional depth and um uh you know familial adversity those type of things that um hit so much different now that I've had kids and from the loss of my father as well but also you know the the good and bad in both um from uh you know the relationship with my dad, it it also just taught me so much in in and what to be in a father in a big way.

So, I'm I'm extremely grateful for that and I choose to celebrate that, you know, through that lens. lens. lens. That's cool, man. I want to go back to your your pain, your nervous system pain. I'm curious, what do you think would take for you to create true inner peace and to and to heal the different pain that you have that you're experiencing? You've done a lot of work on this already. You've worked with like the top psychologists and therapists and Dr. Paul Ki and who's been on here.

But what do you think is at the root that'll that you need to really heal? I think it's that I think it's especially in considering where I'm at in my career as well. I think it's an accumulation of of all of these things and stripping and stripping and stripping stripping it all back. But I do think it's it's it's I I was a precocious kid. I was an outlier. I was somebody who uh from the age of five or six when I started playing organized basketball and was playing three grades up with my brother, you know, people were like, "Oo, that kid is, you know, special." Yeah.

Yeah. Right. And it was pretty apparent um what I could be and I think unpacking and my dad put a lot of pressure on me and so did the the community that I was in and I was a big fish in a in a smaller pond in Portland, Oregon, but I was the number one player in the country pretty pretty early or top few player in the country pretty early and was that's a pressure also. It's like when someone says okay here's the number one Yeah.

Yeah. Yeah. person in the country and you're what 16 17 or 18 or Yeah. Maybe even younger and I was um that's a lot of pressure. Yeah. I think there was a probably 14 I would say because we went to a uh uh a uh the national championships in Orlando, Florida and I came out of that. Yeah. Ranked maybe the number two or number one guy in the country for your age group or for like age group. age group. age group. This is AAU. Is this like this is AU?

So this for the country and it was Yeah. pretty well known then that I was uh you know gonna be be be the next guy up. Yeah. The next guy up. What does that feel like? 14 and you're essentially the number one player in the country. country. country. What does it do for your identity, your psychology? Like, psychology? Like, psychology? Like, does it excite you? Do you build a level of confidence that's like your ego explodes? explodes? explodes? Yes. Yes. Yes. Really? Really? Really? All the above.

And like that's where I'm like, you know, I I have I talked about like having shame shivers and I still think about it now. And I've seen a lot of people that I went to high school with since. And every time I see him, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, uh, in some cases I apologize, but I'm like, we were all feeling certain big emotions at that time. I wish I could go back there and and change this, but no, just like, just like, just like, you know, if I offloaded hurt, I apologize, man.

apologize, man. apologize, man. Because I was feeling some sort of way. And like, of course, when you're young, it's like, you know, you talked about like, you know, you want to put your arm around your boy and he's like, you know, get off me. Get off me for, you know, we use certain words for it. Like it's just I'm happy to see at least like in my fun and the work we do now like kids are so much more open to being vulnerable or or open to change which is really cool to see because I never had that and I I never really had those conversations.

There was one other friend and it's my other best friend from back home is is the only guy I would have that with. But even then, I'm just like at other people's expense, I would offload these things. And I I look back and um you know, it kind of makes me sad and I'm I'm I'm shameful, you know, of that. But I I think going back to your question, it's been unpacking, I don't know, 30 25 30ish years of expectation as well. and factor that into quite literally everything and what that means for um you know all of the emotionality that I've dealt with over the course of time.

It's it's it's you know that word keeps coming back. It's confusing. It's very confusing. So unpacking that has been something that um I think will help start that process. And then the unpacking needs to continue to happen with whatever trauma or whatever I was feeling at the time, whatever confusion. And um knowing that all of my feelings were valid, both good and bad. I need to keep telling myself that because I keep telling myself like, who am I to think like that? It's just like the the the kids that you speak of like look, he has everything.

Why does he feel like this? this? this? And it's like, you know, different different bucket, different scoreboard. It I don't think it matters. I think it it it transcends everybody has their story and how they how they deal with it and how they feel. Do you think it would have been possible for you to have a quote unquote healthier childhood, you know, a less traumatic childhood or a more healthy relationship with your emotions and your parents and you still be able to accomplish what you've accomplished in your career?

See, that's a great question because as an athlete, you know this, like my I always say it was a gift and a curse because my anger, my rage that was like stemmed from the anxiety and the whatever darkness or not wanting to come out of the room or not having the emotional availability or intelligence or bandwidth or budgeting my stress, I, you know, I'd want to like stay in my room in a dark room and then go practice and lift weights And then I'd have to go to school and then like, you know, I wanted like a girlfriend to love me and then like be with my boys and be like like it was some of it was healthy, some of it not so much.

But it was um I feel like that especially the the strong heavy anxiety was such a driving force. So I'm like it was a gift and a curse. It still is. I almost I always ask the question and I don't mean this to be um um um you know it might come up, it might not, but I'm like did did I leave stuff on the table because I I not because I started getting the the the help, but like did any of the the medication or or any of the things that I did to um heal, heal, heal, which is overwhelmingly a positive, but did did it take away that like edge edge edge edge to Go for it.

I don't know. Really? Really? Really? I don't know. Do you think you've been less successful in your athletic career since starting the healing process? No, I think just my my prime because of my body was just earlier. But that thought creeps in. I I truly believe that like I I was on the athletic decline as far as my my athletic prime go. go. go. You're at the top. Yeah. Yeah. Without a doubt, my life satisfaction is higher. higher. higher. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Right. Like is there fulfillment needs that that that are there on every side?

Sure. Like, but again, I think it's continuing to Yeah. I'm curious where what life would have been like if uh you know, if you just had a healthier relationship with emotions and parents growing up and you were cultivated an environment of being driven without anger. I wonder Well, it's like Michael Jordan, right? And I just have to bring him up. I'm not saying anything anything similar, but that mindset of like he he I mean, I was only because I was talking about the last dance last night.

I've watched it six times. six times. six times. I love it. And he's like, I took that personal, right? He would just keep making up enemies whether it was real or not. He would just keep making up these things that happened didn't happen. And so therefore, like he's playing tricks on his mind to create that. Tom Brady did a lot of that too. He did a lot of that too, right? And he talks about it. I love his mindset too. He's like, "What did he say?" Like what what was that?

Like Okay. And I think that that you have to get your brain there and and you know people say psuck yourself up in a way that um gets you to a point of of re reaching your athletic ceiling and and capabilities. But But But um the question is I don't know. But do I think I would have been able to achieve what I achieved without that form of adversity? I would lean towards saying no. So I almost and I almost feel like it's it's a good way of telling kids like you you can work on it but also use channel find a way to channel it as a gift to put it elsewhere put that energy elsewhere harness it elsewhere but I don't know how how how at least at the time I didn't know if that was even possible.

I still don't know if it's completely possible. Interesting. Interesting. Interesting. This message is brought to you by Apple and Verizon. And if you scroll enough online you'll hear it all. miracle diets, fitness trends, crazes like celery juice and cold blunges, you name it. But with iPhone and Apple Watch, you get meaningful insights from a very trusted source, your body. Because the information you get should reflect the body you're in. With Apple Watch, you can track things like your sleep quality, your cycle, your cardio, fitness, and more.

You can then unpack all the information on Apple iPhone on the health app which allows you to track and view your data over time. And all these health insights are developed with experts from start to finish. Find out more at apple.com/halth. Apple Watch is not a medical device and should not be used as a substitute for professional medical advice. I mean, as a father now, I'm thinking the same thing. I'm like, I want my daughters to be successful in their life and accomplish, but I don't want them to have I want them I want to create controlled adversity.

Yes. But they need to learn how to overcome, but also give them a lot of love. You know what I'm saying? I don't want to like fracture their psychology so they're like, I have to go prove myself to my dad or something. You know, it's like like like um that's not my intention. And I'm curious, do you know anyone in the league or who's maybe retired or still playing that really has a lot of love and peace in their heart? like truly has love. I'm not saying they're perfect and maybe they have some challenges, but they just seem like they're super healthy in their nervous system and yet they're just killers on the court.

Do you know anyone like that? You're just like, man, they've just like they just seem peaceful and calm and harmonious. I just watched the documentary with uh what's the guy's name? The former Laker uh Lamar Odum. Mhm. Mhm. Mhm. I mean, I don't know if you've seen this one yet on Netflix. The uh not saying I lived it with him, but Lamar and I Yeah. We were on the world championship team together. Same agent. I was there. Yeah. I mean, I don't You watched the Untold series with him, right?

Yeah. right? Yeah. right? Yeah. He's still got some stuff inside of him, but it's like Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah. What was that? Had a traumatic childhood that was Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah. Did he I mean, what was that experience like with him then? No, just being around him. I was I was there when, you know, he first started his um you know, relationship with with Clory, which had to have been around 2009, 2010. And um you guys were on the same team which so world championship team.

Uh we played in Istanbul and won a gold medal together. together. together. Okay. USA team. USA team. So then played against some Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. the Lakers. We had the uh we had the same agent, basketball agent. Wow. Wow. Wow. And um so I got to know Lamar pretty well. And well. And well. And even through all the traumatic experiences that I learned about that he had and and you know growing up very traumatic. Um you could see where those where those came from especially after watching that documentary.

But, you know, you could also see the the spiral in it all and no one could prepare him for what was what was coming. It was it was really really sad. And when you know somebody at at at that level, which I knew Lamar relatively well, um it's painful to see. You you sympathize and you feel for him in a major way because, because, because, you know, that's one of your brothers. It's like, you know, it's such an elite fraternity already. fraternity already. fraternity already. Yeah.

uh with 450 players, but when you win a gold medal with somebody and you've gone and been in the trenches with them and this person has put his arm around you and um you know helped you in your career, it's it's it's um it's tough to to to watch that, especially when now you know just how far it went. Oh yeah. Yeah. It's dark. It's dark. It's dark. It's very dark. Is there anyone in the league then that you've seen or know that you're just like, "Oh, they seem to have it life figured out internally and they can go out and do well at an elite level level level whereas everyone just got you know I think every Yeah.

Everybody in some case, but I look at guys that um you know, of course, like LeBron as an example, but like Steph Curry is a great example. example. example. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. He seems very peaceful inside. you know, he he he's very healthy, family life, healthy. He, you know, has um you know, a lot of what he does is based around faith and family, he just seems like he he has an amazing foundation. And even what is he 16 years into the league is stilling performing at his level, he's the one that I would circle outside of the realm of guys that I've I've I've played with, even though he was on that 2010 team as well.

But um and I hated him for four years playing him in the finals. But uh he's somebody that I would circle as um you know somebody who really has it together you know emotionally, spiritually and has taken care of his body. So like just checked so many boxes. boxes. boxes. So it's possible to be world class. One of the best and it is. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I think it's extremely rare. Yeah. Exactly. Yeah. Exactly. Yeah. Exactly. Extremely rare. But I think that um his biggest fight right now is probably like father time and then time in general just being around his family and around his kids.

But I think that from the outside looking in and knowing Steph relatively well is is uh he has a great work life balance and he chases both with everything. He he seems to he seems to have it like that is it looks that's what success for the most part should should look like. It looks right. Yeah. and he seems like he's good relationship with his parents and it's like like like he seems like joyful a lot of the time and he probably has there's trauma in there and there's things that have happened but it it it truly seems like he's uh he's uh he's uh he's in he's in a good place and you don't get to where he is al also with that he's a great communicator you can one of the things that he you know you mentioned is faith it's like after every shot he's connected to God or after every make it looks like um what's your relationship with God and faith faith faith for me It's always just I've had my own internal belief system.

You know, it's funny. I I I've you know, studied Muslims, Buddhists, Christians, Cath, you know, we I'm not going to say I grew up Catholic, but I go grew up going to church with with my grandmother. But, um, no, I just higher power, I guess. I believe in that. I believe in, you know, good energy. I do have a internal belief system and a belief system. um that is strong. But any which way faith leaning I'm you know not exactly sure like my my wife my wife is Jewish and so like I'm kind of spread throughout all over.

all over. all over. I just love people. I guess it's just interesting because you mentioned Steph is like the one guy who is in the league who's you know I'm sure he's not the only one but the highest level of success who also is connected to faith. I wonder if that brings him a level of peace. I I believe a healing. a healing. a healing. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. That I'm curious to, you know, ask him that one day like, "Hey, is this do you feel like if you didn't have God or faith in your relationship, whatever that relationship is, right, right, right, do you feel like you would have this much peace?" much peace?" much peace?" Yeah.

Yeah. Yeah. I wonder what his answer would be. I I couldn't answer it for him, but I would I would almost guarantee you with how and him I him and Aisha met each other and how they grew up and how um you know his parents raised him. I I I would I would bet would bet would bet interesting interesting interesting that's the case and those are great. Belief systems are amazing to have. I just uh I think a big part of it is uh you find it in different stages and and times throughout your life, but yeah.

yeah. yeah. Um yeah, for me it's I think it's um you know, just to everybody has their different belief system. How do you how do you plan to protect your peace going into this next season? You know, not literal season, but also season of life, whe whatever with whatever you choose to do. Yeah, I think just doing my work early. I think it's leaning into um yeah, not only my therapy, but you know, it's like the saying, kill the body, the mind will die. Take care of my body in case I do decide to to play again and there is a a job there for me in a place that's going to uh make my family and I happy.

Focus and be highly intentional on spending the time with my girls because at this age, I mean, you're starting to notice it now, too, like they change so fast. Crazy. Crazy. Crazy. They change so fast. every day they wake up, I'm like, "Yeah, even from uh so my youngest daughter, she turned one in uh on Valentine's Day." And even these couple months that have followed, the change has been astronomical. And then my two and a half-year-old, it's like every two weeks it's, you know, you're not saying a off-agore anymore.

You're saying Aquafor like bring back bring back you saying words wrong. Yeah. The cute little the Oh my god. It's like, you know, death of one stage, rebirth of another. But I'm like, I need that stage back. So I'm find myself scrolling my phone and looking at them. So that's what makes it hard being away. So I want to be highly intentional with my time spent with them and then just you know also having balance you know away from the four and and and you know different things that I love whether it be um you know writing or photography or travel or travel or travel or you know any of those things that get out in the sun and letting the sun hit me in the morning like all these things that um you know make me feel really good both body mind and spirit.

So like I really want to focus on that. So no matter what happens, both good and bad, I will be prepared for it. Has your mental routine changed over the last 18 seasons in the NBA where you know you used to prepare a certain way before big games, now you prepare differently or has it been consistent throughout? And if so, what is that routine to get you mentally ready right before a game? Yeah, I think it's all nervous system related now. like if I'm um you know where as I used to listen to like you know really like strong heavy like hard either you know rap or or music that would you know inspire me to want to like channel that type of Yeah.

Exactly. But like kind of lose my emotions in it. Now it's like um could still be that level of of of um you know cadence within like a beat or a rhythm or that sort of thing but typically like no words really really really or it'll be something that like just calms my nervous system. So I think music music music is a part of my family so therefore a huge part of my life is always on. So, um I think music plays a huge and sound plays a huge uh part in that as well as in terms of the senses, but mostly yeah, eat the same.

Make sure I'm I'm filled right. I shouldn't say eat the same as like my first few years because I didn't know what I was doing. But routine wise, everything is always very punctual, very very much at the the um same time. A little superstitious in that way. What's the food? What's the same meal? You know, it's like starch. is like, you know, white rice and chicken and avocado and just making it sure it's it's balanced and get my hydration right. But it's so much more advanced now than it was when I came in in 089.

Just having pizza or whatever you have. Yeah. Just whatever was there you grabbed and got the got the calories and hope it worked out for you and wonder why you crashed or you didn't. Right. So at this age, you know, you mentioned father time. That's something I'm trying to battle with as well is like fighting father time is how can I extend my athletic athletic athletic journey towards my Olympic dreams for LA 2028 the best way I can with a little over two years away and I and I'll be 45 at that time.

So the idea of like how do I continue to stay mentally young and physically young to prevent injuries to give myself the ability to live a dream. How do you think about the I guess mortality of your body in with 22 year olds who are just freak athletes in the NBA now? Like these guys are jumping out of the gym. They're just doing unbelievable athletic feats every night. How do you think about that knowing, oh, maybe I don't have that little step that I used to have.

Maybe I'm not jumping that that many more inches above the rim that I used to. How do you navigate that internally knowing internally knowing internally knowing the end may be a year or two, three years away, but it's like it's here at some point sooner than it is later. I try to use this for sure. Study the game, study film. The film doesn't lie. Um hopefully, you know, they haven't figured that out yet. So, I have that advantage. advantage. advantage. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. On them. But I think in terms of my body, it's like cortisol, cortisol, cortisol.

Like, how do I keep the inflammation down? because I always, you know, there's always some some sort of stress response or something that will set you off um throughout the course of the day, but if you can try and limit that as much as possible while also knowing that you're going to be burning it at both ends, if you're going in and lifting weights and and and doing sprints and putting all that stress on your body and your knees um and your back over the course of time, it's it's certainly an accumulation.

I have a lot of miles on me having played 18 seasons plus you know working out in the summertime plus playing uh you know uh USA basketball. So, you know, for me it's it's keeping the inflammation down. It's eating right. It's sleeping right. Um having proper balance so there's no burnout. Um but again, I'm never going to get those steps back that I once had. It's like just stabilizing, seeing where you can improve. uh summertime offseason is a is a is a great chance to do that.

Do that. Always Always Always being curious and trying to learn as much as you possibly can about, you know, how you can help your body, how you can help your body grow, mind grow. Um and hopefully you'll be able to teach those guys something, man. because I'm kind of in that season now as well where I can see I'm still able to be effective and I'm athletic and it's like but I'm not jumping 360 one leg off landing on the same foot like you know reaching back and doing all the crazy stuff you used to when you're 26 and you can just recover like that and so how do you think about it around confidence and psychologically knowing that you're I don't want to say you're not as good because you're better in other ways but athletically, you just, you know, h I wish you had this mind with that body.

Exactly. How do you how do you deal with it psychologically to not let your confidence go down knowing that you're a different athlete? Let me say that. Yeah. I think it's focusing like I know that at a very elite level that I can still rebound the ball. At elite level I can shoot the ball. Um elite level I can pass the ball. and also admitting like where I'm at in my career, but understanding where I add value, right? So, focusing on those things, fine-tuning fine-tuning fine-tuning um as well.

I always say you can hear a great team. So, like our young guys don't like to communicate. I didn't hear much this year. That's it, man. So, that was um a great thing that um you know, I learned especially when I got to the Cavs and had to be a championship team is that we had to we had to speak, we had to communicate. If not off the floor, then on the floor to get the best out of each other. So, I think that's think that's think that's it's a both and on and off.

On and off. I mean, you you need it, but you know, there's there's exceptions to the rule. Like, of course, you know, Kobe and Shaq hated each other at some point, and yet they were just, you know, two of the top few players in the league at the same time playing on the same team. So, there's that. But we um No, we were great communicators and we also had fun together, and we trusted each other. So, I think that was um Yeah, it's that was huge.

I I hear a lot of, you know, it's talk and touch. It's like the more you talk with each other and the more you touch each other. You know, Steve, he was like, didn't they do a study on him? Like the most touches, he was like of the whole season, right? Was him It's like positive affirmations basically. basically. basically. And he was the MVP like those he had the most touches most touches most touches and he was always positively speaking into the players. Y Y Y and I think if the coaching works, isn't it interesting?

it interesting? it interesting? It's the talk and touch. And I think that's something I'm thinking a lot of this season of my life in handball is like like like I can cheer the whole game on the if I'm on the bench and I'm not playing, I can be cheering and screaming positively for each player on and that's what I do. If I'm not playing in the game, I'm like, "You got this. Keep it up." I'm just speaking. speaking. speaking. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And trying to encourage others to communicate because that's infectious leadership.

Yeah. leadership. Yeah. leadership. Yeah. And it's a workout, too. Screaming the whole It's like, "Oh, yeah. Oh, it's Yeah. have that first that that first seat um next to our coaching staff if it goes down the line and I I for the most part um try and be the first out to give everybody love. love. love. Yeah, it's good after a timeout or after um end of a quarter, something like that, because I think that that is infectious and you see more and more people jumping off the bench and going to do that.

So, celebrate your teammates. I think it's huge. Um, and you need to be in that positive mindset because as in athletics and in so many like you're you're one play away. You're one play away. Like that's just the reality of it all, right? From what? From playing From playing From playing both. Okay. both. Okay. both. Okay. So, if you're out there playing big minutes, if something were to happen to you, you see it all the time, the next person is going to be up coming to take your spot, right?

And if you're in a bad mindset and you're not celebrating that person, you're thinking f, you know, like screw the team and the organization. They're not giving you my opportunity, like you're so much better off being in the other like growth type of mindset and and celebrating others and celebrating your people in the locker room while establishing a healthy locker room and healthy space and healthy culture that when you have the opportunity, I think you're so much better off uh with that. You're going to have your teammates trust and they're going to be like, "Oh, I like playing with this guy." Mhm.

guy." Mhm. guy." Mhm. And those minutes are going to be there. So like you have to keep working. You have to be intentional about how you do it and how you navigate it. With everything you've been through in the last 18 seasons in the NBA, from the wins to the family dynamics and the boundaries you've had to create to the coming out publicly about anxiety, depression, and starting a healing journey to, journey to, journey to, you know, coming back with your father in the last couple years, all these different things.

What would you say are the three things that have defined you over the last 18 seasons of your life in the NBA? I would say certainly the first thing that comes to mind is being outspoken about my mental health, how it's affected me and how I've come out the other side and the community and community and community and fund uh that I've created and impact not only on my uh on others but uh myself through it all. So, that's one. Um, how important my relationships in my life have been to me.

Like, there's the family you're born to, the family you make along the way, right? The family that I've made along the way and the relationships that I've I've leaned into. And really specifically, there's been people that have been with me over the course of time. Uh, meaning my two best friends from back home. And then, you know, I've been with the same agent. I've been with a few of the same people my entire career, but really the last 10 or so years. I say 10 because that was our um our 2016 team won the the championship.

And then in 2017 18 was a really tough and trying year for me. After that, everything I learned about myself and um those people who were continued to be there for me. You learn about the people who who show up for you during those times and those who you thought would have that you're probably no longer in your life. life. life. Agree. So that's where where that comes in as well. And also also also I would say now because it's so fresh on my mind and because having lost a parent uh just this past year um yeah what fatherhood what has taught me you know what is most important and and how much fatherhood and being a parent changes your life.

So I'd probably say those three things. Um so it's yeah the mental health journey. it is relationships and friendships and then it's um that's beautiful that's beautiful that's beautiful and you know I I hope you get to 20 if that's what you want or as long as you want to go towards but if you could go from year 18 and if you could go into the future to the last day of your NBA career your last game where the shoes are out on the court the jerseys hung up what do you want this moment until the very end of your NBA career to be the things you're remembered for separate from these first 18 years.

I think especially now I speaking of fulfillment I mean we talked about fulfillment and and searching for that wanting that and and what makes me happy now is like the impact that I've had on guys. I never thought I would be that guy cuz I think coming into the league I was so had the blinders on and you know had some very selfish and narcissistic qualities which again it's like you sometimes you need you you need those and and you have to be a little off to be great or have an opportunity to be great.

Um, and you sacrifice a lot and you think, I, you know, I I deserve this because I've put in the work and I've had these breaks and this is, you know, it's it's mine for the taking, so it's me, me, me. But again, that that one of the things I do look back at is like, would it have been a less lonely existence my first six years in the league in Minnesota had I been like, "All right, guys, like wrap my arms around my teammates. We were losing so much.

I'm like, I'm going to go out and try and will us to victory, but if not, I'm I'm I'm going to, you know, put up serious numbers and either you guys are coming with me or you're not. So, I was like, wow. wow. wow. You know, it was one of those You know, it was one of those things. So, um I didn't realize what it meant to sacrifice and be a great teammate until I uh got to Cleveland. Really? And it came with some with some with some That's Ohio boys, you know.

So, it came with some tough uh tough learning experiences, but um no, if if not for Cleveland, if not for Ohio, if not for the Cavaliers, having learned those lessons, some uh the hard way, some not so hard, but some very much the hard way, then I wouldn't be who I am today. And, you know, leaving guys in a a better place professionally and personally and personally and personally in their careers because I never had that veteran my first six years in the league. Not not somebody like that.

Who taught you this in in Cleveland? Like how did this come about? Were you like like like Channing Fry and Richard Jefferson? Really? Really? Really? Yeah. They were like Yeah. Which people would Yeah. If if you know Rich, he's Yeah. He actually uh uh um has a true emotional uh you know, depth and curiosity to him. And I just saw him the other day. He's been amazing. Obviously has this great personality, great TV personality, but like getting to know Rich has been amazing. And then Channing is is somebody who um I truly love and respect and is one of my best friends and somebody I've been through truly a lot with and he's been very outspoken about his own struggle.

So it's really those two that that helped me um you know find myself in that way and I thought I want to be like them and that to I want to be like them and that I want to be a great teammate. I want to live a leave a lasting impression on people and um uh you know they're just guys that I looked at as as um you know leaders in that way that helped me find myself. myself. myself. I want to ask you about this.

You've been on a lot of different teams with USA basketball teams to different teams in the league. Is it something different about winning a championship with a group of guys that makes you connect with that team differently than just all other teams? For sure. And it's really top of mind now because like I said, it's been 10 years. So, um, you know, we have our our group chat, which it's six of us on there that we're so close. Channing and Richard are on there as well.

well. well. Come on. Come on. Come on. U, we talk every day. We were texting this morning and because of I mean, a perfect example is like J.R. Smith is is his daughter was born very prematurely and we went through that with him and uh you know were were you all very much feeling for him and scared that he was going to um you know lose his daughter at the time. So we were there for him through that and she's happy and healthy. Uh Channing Fry lost um both his mom and dad in the same month.

Well, so we were all there for him. Tristan Thompson lost his mother, same thing. My I lost my father, same thing. Like we all um you know showed up you know for each other in in in you know major ways. Richard same thing. Uh you know LeBron is um you know been very open with us about a lot on that text chain and of course we keep it very fun and some of the stuff isn't suitable for me. Yeah. We've got some memes and but we um you know we we we show up for each other and that is you know such a major part of of of um the friendship and the brotherhood that was the Cavs but those are relationships that you develop over the course of your career but specific to that team having gone through all those battles having lost uh in 2015 having lost in in in 17 and 18 but winning in 16 in the manner that we did and how down 31 right together.

Yeah, we were. Nobody had ever done it before. We did it on the road. And that's incredible. Yeah, I mean, we uh we had many guys throughout the the course of that um that run, including uh those seven games against the Warriors step up in a major way. So, we'll always be connected. And now we're we're planning a 10-year reunion trip. So, we'll see what happens. happens. happens. Oh, that's cool, man. I remember I was I was coming back from a a USA handball trip in Buenosides.

Yeah. when you guys won and I was losing my mind because I'm from Ohio so I was like ah it was the greatest thing greatest thing greatest thing it was the greatest feeling I was just like you know we'd always suffered so Cleveland Browns Cleveland Cavs it was like we've just suffered so you guys really brought it back and so I acknowledge you guys for that was a lot of fun um this has been powerful man I'm really grateful for you opening up and hopefully we'll have you back on in the future sometime maybe when when the last season is done we'll come talk about and the what that time frame because you mentioned the one thing you want to do is to really have an impact on the guys you're surrounded with over these next however many seasons you play left and I think that's a great way to you know bookend your career is about impact you know you've had all the success in winning and you'll probably still win and succeed but I think from you going through the healing journey ah you know starting over little over almost a decade ago and finishing your career whenever that is being about impact and service I think is going to be even more healing for you right right right on this process whether it's one season or five or whatever you choose to do um so I'm excited to watch man I'm excited to see your journey and uh if I can serve in any way please let me know I appreciate it but um very excited about this I have two final questions for you before I ask them I want people to follow you on social media and check out your fund.

Yes. Yes. Yes. Or the foundation. Can you share more about this and what this is all about? Yeah. Kevin Lovef fund. It's kevin lovefund.org. Uh, of course you can find me on uh just look for the the memes. Kevin love everywhere on social media. Yeah. Yeah. Just uh Yeah. Look for the look for the memes and you'll find me. But we But we But we But the Kevin Love Fund, why did you want to start this? And who's it about serving? serving? serving? So I I think it it it all started after the 20 um you know 17 panic attack and we started the fund with you know just the hopes of um impacting people as we could both mentally, emotionally, spiritually, physically and you know what I kept finding myself asking um uh I kept asking myself and others kept asking me like what would you tell your 15-year-old self or what you know what what do you wish you could, you know, talk about like that 5-year-old giving the hug.

Um, you know, what do you wish that you could um tell that person? I thought, you know, what I didn't have was the emotional language in order to be able to uh express myself in a in a healthy way, maybe especially as a young man and a young boy. So, I thought, you know, what if there's a a way to implement education and where it it isn't just the spoken word or isn't just language that we can help kids create um um you know, a very healthy way of of being able to express themsel if they don't have that.

So, we had started a curriculum. can love them started a curriculum that is based around vulnerable uh vulnerability and social emotional learning and we started it in the classroom with the teachers showing what that looked like and then uh among their peers there was you know many different up to a dozen to to to to first when we first started um different lesson programs and lesson plans that uh we started with kids on how to um you know show what they were going through or tell their story or tell a story with somebody going through something at at arms distance.

So, it was uh you know creative writing, it was poetry, it was photography, it was music, certain things like that. And we've worked with um many different great people that have showed us how uh you know they have done it along the way and we partner with people like Sony and we worked with Steph Curry and the goat and animation has a really cool way of um being able to show true emotions and sometimes it's hiding in plain sight. We work with the spiders spiderverse. We did a short with them and Morales and so they've been a a great partner in that but we just continue to um you know evolve uh the the curriculum and we have some coming up in May where it's based around friendship.

So, we we we talked about that as well and really leaning into relationships, how they impact everyone, healthy relationships moving forward and forward and forward and and finding your tribe and Yeah, man. Yeah, man. Yeah, man. uh you know, making sure that um you know, you find that in a healthy way to combat any sort of thing that you're feeling. feeling. feeling. Yeah. The thing you got coming out in May, May 1st is called the friend effect is what I'm reading here. creating community and building positive relationships.

And it's a new free mental health lesson that's available for educators, school counselors, and coaches nationwide. coaches nationwide. coaches nationwide. And so it's starting on May 1st, first day of mental health awareness month, and it's available for immediate access at kevlofund.org. So I recommend people going and checking that out. I you know I wish we had stuff growing up growing up growing up where we could just express ourselves in a safe environment without the other guys making fun of us. It really affects a young boy's psyche when they just and it's not their the other kids' fault.

They didn't know how to to to receive, you know, this emotions or this communication or someone putting their arm around them. They didn't know how to respond either. So I don't blame other kids. Like we're all kind of at fault for this. But we just never had a place to to share a voice of like our concerns without being told shut up, suck it up, like stop crying, don't be a little baby, whatever it is that we all experience, experience, experience, especially as young men, right?

right? right? To not express emotion. And it's counterintuitive to being successful in sports. sports. sports. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Showing weakness, showing emotion, showing them you're tired, whatever it is. Like, you can't show any of that. Just Just Just be a man, you know? It's like, how do you do that at 8 years old? It's It's impossible. impossible. impossible. It is impossible. And like you know the It's funny because like on the other side of that you're you're you're paying for it now. Oh yeah. You pay a big price for the rest of your life.

All your relationships suffer after that. Yes. Yes. Yes. Every relationship. Every relationship. Every relationship. Yeah. Like what do we always say, right? Like you got to put your own oxygen mask on first. If you don't if you don't have that intervention early enough, and that's why, you know, we work on this at the fund. It's like you you you need some safe space and why not have it be around your peers and not having to go down the hallway, not having to do it at home.

And you know, the the more people that share, the more of, you know, a tribe and a community you create and we've seen it work uh at a very high level. So very very proud of that. Very proud of the work we're doing. And yeah, the focus on friendship is is great. It's fun. Finding your tribe. Yeah. I want people to check it out. Kevin kevin lovefund.org. You can also go there and make a donation. School of Greatness is making a donation as well because we believe in, you know, we really donate to a lot of youth programs and and kids education.

And for me, emotional intelligence and healing is the most important thing we can all invest in. So, I'm really glad you're doing this, man. Um, make sure to check out Kevin Love on social media to see where he's going next in his career as well. We'll we'll all see where that's happening hopefully soon. The the two final questions I have for you, this one is called the three truths and uh it's a hypothetical scenario. So imagine you get to live as long as you want to live in this life and you get to create and accomplish everything.

Um you get to end your career as an NBA player the way you want to and build a life the way you want to after that. But for whatever reason on your last day many years away, you you have to take all of your work with you. So this conversation people don't have access to anything you shared publicly, anything you create, it has to go with you to the next place. No one has access to your content anymore. But on the last day, you get to leave behind three final truths, which would be your personal lessons of life.

What do you think going into the future would be those three truths for you that you would leave behind? Nothing haunts us like the things we don't say. If we hold on to that, it's going to manifest or come out in some sort of sort of way. And most more often than not I feel like it's not going to be good. So like it's not healthy. It just you know again and that doesn't have to be verbalized. It's just like I was saying at the fund there's there's different ways in order uh in ways to do that.

So just like the things we don't say say say things one are done joy soul lies in the doing. Set out to do and try to live your life relentlessly curious without fear or prejudice. That's great. you had those a lock that was like clear for you. Final question. What's your definition of greatness? I think you know I always use the term and it's not mine. It's just something that I've tried to adopt uh and gear my life towards and I'm not perfect. I especially after the season I'm like I'm just going to eat what I want and drink wine and like I don't care for 10 days whatever it is.

But um you know discipline is deciding between what you want now and what you want most. M most. M most. M so and I think discipline is the path to greatness. Like I've had to, you know, change my diet, change how I take care of my body, uh be be more disciplined in my relationships, sleep better, um the list goes on and on. And all of that is the the destiny is all through that that that discipline. I know that like Ryan Holidayiday, discipline is destiny, right?

Like I I I truly believe that. But I think deciding between what you know now, what you want most, I think that is that is the path. It might not be the uh definition, but that is certainly the path to where you want to go is all through discipline. through discipline. through discipline. Good love, my man. Thank you. Appreciate you. Thankful, man. Yeah. Wow. Wow. Wow. And if you think about the model, thoughts, thoughts, thoughts, emotions, emotions, emotions, behavior, behavior, behavior, and those three, the swirl of those three is really the output is how your what performance is.

And if you have um high performing thoughts, uh high performing emotions, high performing behavior,