The Psychology Research That Proves You Are Not the Problem — Your Environment Is | Angela Duckworth

Key Takeaway

When more effort is producing no more progress, stop treating yourself as the problem and audit the situation. Today, list the people, places, routines, and supports surrounding one area where you feel stuck. Identify one environmental change—ask a mentor for help, remove a draining commitment, change your workspace, or seek professional support—then make that change before trying harder. Grit works best when it is applied in a situation designed to support it.

Episode Overview

Angela Duckworth argues that grit is necessary but insufficient: lasting progress depends heavily on the people, physical settings, and support structures around us. Drawing on her marriage, psychological research, and Viktor Frankl's work, she explains how changing a situation can shift thoughts, behavior, confidence, happiness, and ultimately performance.

Full Transcript

Transcript of The Psychology Research That Proves You Are Not the Problem — Your Environment Is | Angela Duckworth from The School of Greatness. Auto-generated from episode audio; may contain minor errors.

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Make sure to follow right now to stay up to date on the latest and greatest. Effort isn't enough. Grit's not enough. If you don't have those support structures, if you don't have the mentors, the teammates, the culture, I think they make all the difference. I mean, you know, trying hard in a losing situation, you know, only leads to really like frustration and burnout. A psychologist, a professor, and a bestselling author that's sold over 5 million copies of her book called Grit, the one and only Dr.

Angela Duckworth. If you are trying, and then you're trying harder, and then you're trying harder still, and you do not feel like you are making progress in your marriage, in your career, in your friendships, I think that is the time you should stop, ask yourself, is it the situation? Like, do I need to pivot and put myself in a better situation? And then, you know, of course, like, then keep trying. I mean, I'll never stop believing and try harder, but that I think is a signal, and I think I missed that signal.

When does someone know that they should change their environment? There's this research that I didn't do, but I think is like elemental to everything that I say. I'm curious to ask you first, if you could have all the grit in the world, but not have proximity to the right environment, do you believe we could still accomplish our big goals and dreams? I don't. I think the answer to that is no. Grit is great. I haven't given up on grit. In fact, I think the final common path to greatness is always going to be a path of consistent effort, but effort isn't enough.

Grit's not enough. I think if you don't have those support structures, if you don't have the mentors, the teammates, the culture, even something as mundane as the physical environment that you need, I mean, if you're a swimmer, how long is the pool, and how heated is the pool? These seemingly trivial sometimes, I guess, things that are outside of you, I think they make all the difference. I mean, trying hard in a losing situation only leads to really frustration and burnout. When does someone know that they should change their environment?

I don't think we know as soon as is optimal, to be honest. There's this research that I didn't do, but I think it's elemental to everything that I say in this book. I want to credit Dick Nisbet and Lee Ross, these two psychologists who studied what's called the fundamental attribution error. In particular, this guy, Lee Ross, had a personal experience that led him to discover that when we think of ourselves and others, we often ignore the situation. You ask this question, like, when do we know it's time to change our situation?

I'll tell you about what he found, which is that we are so oblivious to our situation that it can kind of be like the water of a fish. It's like, I think you should be swimming over here, but you're so habituated to it. You're so used to it that you're blind to it. His personal experience was, he's getting his PhD, and he's at a roundtable. Of course, he knows his research well. It's all he's been doing, but the inquisitors, these professors who are basically there asking him incredibly random and sort of abstruse questions, like, what was the wavelength of light you used in this experiment?

Honestly, instead of feeling smart, he felt stupid. Instead of feeling like an expert, he felt like a total rookie, and he passed, but that wasn't the end of the story. Then he becomes a professor at Stanford, and now he's literally on the other side of the table. Now there's this PhD student, and they're defending their thesis, and he's the one asking all the clever questions. You can go through anything and be like, on page 168, you say, what did you mean by that? Suddenly, he's like- They're like, I don't know.

They feel stupid. Yeah, yeah. They're falling apart, and yeah, the student felt stupid, and then he felt smart. I think from that personal experience and then a whole lifetime of research, he found that so often we'll be like, oh, this person doesn't know anything. I don't know anything. Oh, this person knows a lot. I know a lot. We think it's the person. It's really the situation. He later wrote a book called The Person and the Situation. It was not a bestseller. It dramatically influenced the work of people like Malcolm Gladwell, Michael Lewis.

It's an academic book, and the book says the situation is incredibly powerful, but like gravity, it's invisible and ignorable. I think your question is a great place to start, which is like, how do you know? I think oftentimes, not soon enough. Not soon enough. Maybe I should be on a different team. Maybe a different coach. Maybe a different zip code. Maybe my kitchen isn't set up the way my kitchen should be set up. Maybe my office isn't set up the way my ... Maybe my nightstand isn't set up.

We are ignoring a situation that I think we shouldn't ignore. It's interesting you're saying this because I had a guy who just graduated who came to my office yesterday to ask me some questions from one of the schools that I went to in college. He was asking me, like, if you could go back to my age, 22, and if there's anything you would change, is there anything? I'm like, well, you know, everything happens for a reason, but I'm like, listen, I wish I would have married the right person sooner.

I wish I would have been, because I was in multiple long-term relationships, and it took a lot of energy being with the wrong people. I don't put any blame on the women that I was with and dating. It's not their fault. I chose to be with them. I chose to stay with them longer than I knew I should have. I go, the only thing is, you're going to be tempted. You're a good looking guy. You're fit. You're this. You've got passion. You're smart. You've already got a great job opportunity, and just make sure you date the right girl, and date with the intention to marry.

Don't just fool around because it might be fun in the moment, but it might drain your energy from actually going after what you want. So I'm curious, how, in your research or in your perspective, if you have the right proximity and the right situation and the right environment and grit, but you're with the wrong person, intimately, how much does that impact your ability to succeed or fail? You know, I'm married. I wouldn't be in this chair right now if I weren't married to Jason Duckworth, and it's not because ...

I mean, it doesn't have anything to do with grit, right? So I will tell you, and I also wish I had married him earlier, but ... How long have you been married? I've been married ... I don't know. I always lose track. Definitely over 25 years. Okay. Well, that's fine. Yeah. So a long time. Like 25 plus, right? Yeah, yeah. So that's what? Silver anniversary? I guess, yeah. Or like post-silver anniversary? I did try, though, by the way. I've always dated, according to your philosophy, which is like, are we not getting married?

Right. I can understand. Yeah, like next. I think the average amount of time that I dated a guy was like four weeks, and there were a lot of them. But I did meet Jason Duckworth. But let me say that I think when you talk about your situation, like yeah, it's like, what's in your cup? It's like, do you have food on your counter? It is also, and obviously, most importantly, I think, the person that you're with. I cannot tell you how ... I think Angela Duckworth is great.

Angela Duckworth and Jason Duckworth, like so much greater. Really? So this wasn't all you? When I did finish this book, which was a very long, hard road, which we could talk about or not, but it was like, I think I have never been so humbled in the five-year journey of writing this book. Not just the most intellectually challenging work, like honestly, the most personally and emotionally challenging work. When it finally was done, I could only use we, not I. I was like, we have a book.

Now we're going to get published. One of the reasons, and you tell me, I'd love to hear more about your marriage. I feel like I no longer conceive of my journey in life as being like me trying to do things. I mean, I really do think of like, I have to write an op-ed with Jason. Really? Yeah. He's not a psychologist. He's a real estate developer, by the way. Residential real estate. But he's your psychologist because he's married to you in a sense. He understands you psychologically, emotionally.

He understands me. He's my intellectual sparring partner. I think that the idea that I am just myself and then occasionally I get feedback doesn't do justice to how important he is. And again, going back to you and your situation, I will go all Eastern on you because I am of Chinese descent, so I have a little bit of the right. Born in Philadelphia, but my parents came from China. My dad in particular would talk about how different it was to come from the East and the West.

And so I will tell you what I think my father was saying to me when he said, when you are in the West, it's like you're an individual and you have a resume and a career. And yes, you have relationships with a romantic partner, with friends, with society. But it's your dream. You're the silhouette. He was like, in the East, speaking personally, he was like, that's not how we think of it. You're part of a whole. You're part of a society. Your relationships are not separate from you.

So yeah, my husband, the real estate developer, I think in the most profound way, I'm struggling to find the words for it, is so much part of anything that I could call success. And by the way, not just this book, like the last one. So I- That's what I mean, your whole career, like your success as a professor and all the awards you've achieved and the books and the sales, like everything. Like everything. Would you be where you are without having the right marriage partner? I would not be where I am if I didn't have this marriage.

But you had the talent, you had the smarts, the skills, the other relations, the network. Why wouldn't you be where you are without the right intimate partner? I'm going to answer it and I also just want to add, I know a very successful Silicon Valley venture capitalist who off the record said, I mean, he came to me and he was like, I always look for grit. And I said, great, so do I. I asked him, what else do you look for? He said, do you want to really know?

I was like, he was like, off the record, I look for somebody who's in a very stable, strong, you'd call it a romantic relationship, right? Like marriage would be the most common form of such a relationship. And I was like, oh, that is so interesting. So let me just say that I'm not alone in like believing that, you know, the two of you are like a unit, you know, like it's not even possible to really conceive. I mean, I will answer you, but I'd love to hear what you would say the same question.

I, you know, do feel like at some point during the day when we like part ways, we have breakfast and then like I go off to work as a psychologist, you know, and I'm on conference calls, he's not on and I like sit and stare at a blank page and he's not standing next to me. I mean, obviously I'm also independent. I don't think any of this like diminishes, like, oh, you know, I don't feel like I take credit. But everything I do, I think of us like trying to embark on this challenge.

Like, I didn't know how to open this book, honestly. I was like, how do I explain to people the power of the situation? Because the situation is so abstract. It's like, how do I explain to them that it's everything and everyone around me? It's your environment. It's your room. It's your, the mentors around you, the school. And maybe I could have called you, but you weren't around and I'm not married to you. Right. So I'm like sitting there struggling. And, and Jason said, why don't you write about our marriage?

And I was like, okay. He just wanted you to brag about him, you know. He did ask, actually, just the other day, he's like, have you been telling people that in so many words? I was like, oh, I was like, I don't know that I'm mentioning that enough. But it was such a generous act. reason is that he didn't want me or wasn't suggesting that I write about like all the good parts. He was suggesting that I write about a crisis that we had in our marriage and this is like the most courageous act, something that we hadn't publicly talked about at all.

Wow, what happened? And yeah, so I'll tell you the story and again, I think like it's just so indicative of like how we are doing this like in the deepest way together. So I met Jason Duckworth, I was in my 20s, I, you know, had this dating philosophy, I was like, we're not getting married next, not getting, but when I met him, I was like, let's do it. Like, let's go. Like first couple of days or first couple of weeks, you're like, hey. A couple hours, I had a dream the first night and I wrote down in my journal, so I have like written evidence that this is true, I'm not making this up.

I had the dream that we were getting married, I was walking down the aisle and I couldn't see the groom and he turned around and it was this guy I just met named Jason. And so I told him about it the second time I saw him and I think he thought it was crazy. Yeah, I guess that's like, yeah, natural response. You were 23, 25, like 27? I was 26, I think, I think I just turned 26. I just turned 26, I was like 26 and two days.

And so we had a head over heels romance, like there were some ups and downs, but like, oh my God, I was in love. So that's not what I wrote about. I didn't write about like, oh, and then chapter or whatever, like it ended up being chapter five, not chapter one. But he wanted me to write about my marriage crisis. He thought it would be a great way to like explain the power of the situation. I will tell you what happened. Everything was going great. You know, he's like you and he's like me, like, try to outwork us, right?

It's like, you know, like, let's go, right? Like, let's go. It's like, you know, maybe I don't have the highest IQ score in the room, like, you know, but like, watch me work, right? Like, so that is Jason Duckworth. And that is Angela Duckworth. And I, you know, and you shared with me that that's your personal story. So when we saw each other, it was like looking in the mirror. It was like, oh my God, let's go. And, and it was working like trying harder was our life philosophy.

And it worked until it didn't until he exhausted and burnout and overwhelmed. Yeah. Yeah. So let's see. So, and maybe there's a scenario where it could have worked forever, but I don't think that happens for those people. So we get married and he's starting his real estate career. And you know, more about business than I do, despite my being a business school professor. So you'll know that, you know, I'm, I'm a professor. I'm on tenure track. I, he's a real estate developer, 2008 financial crisis. I, I know so little about like finance and economics that like, I still like, I gave him the copy for this chapter and he was like, I think you got the sweetie.

I think you got the date wrong for the financial crisis that like, you know, sent the United States and the rest of the world into like a global recession. It was like the worst housing market in recent American history. So here he is like starting out as a very ambitious, I'll outwork you a real estate developer in the worst time in history to be a real estate developer. What happened to our marriage in this time is, and this like, I'm glad I mentioned to you that I'm of Chinese heritage because it is relevant.

So he's working harder and harder because the philosophy of somebody who's like, I will try harder. And that is my superpower. I will work my way out of every problem has an incredible vulnerability, which is like you go from 60 hour work weeks to 80 to a hundred, a hundred. And I counted right. I know people are like, Oh, you know, if you really added it up and like, Oh yeah, trust me, I added him up. So he's working like crazy. And, um, and honestly like becoming incredibly unhappy, like miserable would not be the right.

No, no way. What exactly the right adjective for it? I'm, you know, trying to be what my mother who was raised in China, like raised me to be, which is the perfect wife. Like, okay, I know. Well, I had a lot of therapy since this all happened. And I also, but at the time, right? Like, you know, 20 something Angela, um, head over heels in love, uh, and raised to be like a perfect wife. So I'm working harder. So I'm trying to get tenure, but also we had these two girls and like, you know, I need to serve them organic fruit and like keep up my Pilates routine, but also I've got this husband.

And when you are raised as I was raised, like Lewis, my mother laid her hands on my shoulders at college graduation. And she, with a tear in her eye said, I'm so proud of you. You're ready to be a wife. Um, and so for me, my husband's unhappiness was my failure. Um, so then I just worked harder. I was like, I'll dust bus, you know, at five in the morning I'll do, so I will make everything right. And my husband will be happy. But then, so we were both just digging ourselves into, into like, I guess kind of a foxhole.

Cause that's what it felt like. We were just like, you know, we're just like soldiers in a foxhole trying to make things work and all the happiness. I mean the joy, like I was so in love with Jason Duckworth when we met, but I couldn't even remember that at this point. And so the crisis that I write about is how each of us had spent our lives being gritty, try harder people. And we had to reckon with the reality that trying harder in a losing situation doesn't make you into a winner.

It didn't work for us. And we had to change the situation in fundamental ways to, to rescue our marriage and to rescue our careers. Um, I mean to rescue ourselves. Um, and so yeah, I, I belatedly in a way like came to understand that working harder in a losing situation is just a recipe for, you know, exhaustion, burnout and, and misery. Wow. Now there's a couple of things I relate to there. One, you know, I was, I told you before that I was in multiple longterm relationships, not married, but just in longterm dating relationships, committed relationships.

And there'd be seasons where I know like, oh, this was not, we're not supposed to continue. But for whatever in me, the athlete or the person that says, don't give up, I was like, I'm going to figure this out. We'll do whatever it takes. I'll do more. I'll change. We'll go to therapy or whatever it was. And I repeated that in like four or five different relationships. Yeah. And not most people, but I would say some people after five, 10 years of a marriage with, do they get to that point?

They would say, you know what? We've lost the love. We've lost this. Like we've, we've burned ourselves to the ground. We've tried everything. Let's break up. Let's divorce. Let's break up. Even if we have kids, I'm not saying it's right or wrong for people to make the decisions, but why did you feel like that? Ending the relationship and removing yourself from the situation was not the right thing to do at that time for you. So there's some subtlety here, right? Cause it's like, okay, so I hear you saying is that like this had become an unsustainable situation, Angela, like why isn't breaking up like the right thing?

And like you, I'm like, why would it be for me to pass judgment on anyone's marriage or life? Because I don't know anything about it, but I can speak personally. And there is some nuance here because divorce was a way to change the situation. Right. And I thought like I would be a happy, you know, single mom. And then, you know, he, you're happier, right? Like you thought about this, you thought about like, what would that look like if we took him out for a walk?

And I was like, and out of the blue, I was, you know, like all in one moment, I was like, okay, no, you think everything is perfect. I've been crying my eyes out every night and I don't want to be in this marriage anymore. So it was not a great night. You know, I wrote about this, but I don't know that I did it justice. Like, uh, I don't think there's anything more devastated. He's like a child of divorce. Like, I really don't think there is anything I could have said that was more wounding than that.

Um, I think it was terrifying. I mean, I think it was like every negative adjective you can think of. It was terrifying. It was like crushing. Uh, it was devastating. And, and I won't lie. Part of the reason why we're still married is grit. Cause he was a little bit like, oh no, I'm not done. Like, you know, like, like, like, yeah, like, you know, we'll do it. Um, so there was a little bit of grit, but I will tell you, um, I'll tell you, you know, what happened and why it is that like getting situated, I guess, you know, there were other ways to do it, but I'm glad that we went the path we did.

So there were calibrations to our situation as opposed to like a radical, like changing, you know, like just splitting up. So, um, I was also raised not to have therapy. Like I was raised, I remember my father and my mother were, you know, I have siblings. And there was a moment in time in my childhood, no one talked about emotions or feelings or like, like verboten. And there was a moment in time where like, I think the school, somebody reached out and was like, your family needs to go to therapy.

And by that, I mean the family. And so I remember this one episode, you know, it's like a sepia colored photograph. It's a little fuzzy, but I remember being on this couch with my family and when you were a kid with my, yeah. And my parents were there and my dad like stormed out, um, and said like, uh, you know, very, uh, like unrepeatable things about like the therapist. So like, I did not, I did not grow up thinking like therapy should be part of your situation.

So at this marriage crisis, um, uh, Jason, you know, said whatever, pleaded, said, um, like therapy, like you need therapy. I need therapy and we need therapy. Um, I, I was like incredibly resistant to the idea, you know, like also like when you, when you feel like you've already gone to the place where you're like, oh, by the way, I thought through this thought, like I've thrown it all out and like, there's no, there's no solution here. So no coming back, but maybe there was enough of a Chinese wife in me that was like, oh, but my husband wants me to go to therapy.

So like we went, um, and that was a profound change in my situation. I think like you trying to figure out your problems alone is a different situation than you trying to figure it out with somebody whose whole job is to like help people like you and who has seen as like pattern recognitions. So I, you know, found this therapist, her name is D she's still my therapist. Jason found a therapist. We went through another thing individually and then together we did like, we had the biggest therapy bills like in, uh, well maybe not in history, but there were three therapists for two of us in one marriage and that wasn't a great ratio for me.

And we were, you know, just, it was a huge amount of our annual income, time, energy, you know, these like two little girls who were raising like, you know, grandparents like taking shifts so that we can each go to therapy that we could both go to therapy. I think that that was only one change, but like you in a marriage trying to figure things out on your own by just trying harder is like a whole different world from like you together, like vulnerable enough to be like, I guess it's time for therapy.

Like I can't figure this out on my own. I can't talk about it with you except for if there's this third person in the room, like it did, it wasn't, and it wasn't the only thing we did, but it was like part of the turning point. Right. Um, you know, asking for help I think is a big part of getting situated. The School of Greatness is brought to you in partnership with Airbnb. And some of my favorite travel memories are the smaller moments, walking through a neighborhood, finding a local cafe, a local spot, and getting a real feel for the place that you're visiting.

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Finding that person matters. Indeed sponsored jobs get you quality candidates when you need them most. Join the 3.3 million employers worldwide that use Indeed to connect with quality talent that fits their needs. Listeners of this show will get a $75 sponsored job credit to help get your job the premium status it deserves at indeed.com slash podcast. That's indeed.com slash podcast. Terms and conditions apply. Hiring now? Then this is a job for Indeed sponsored jobs. Do you feel like you'd still be married and as successful as you are in your career if you didn't go through therapy with him at that season?

I know that I wouldn't be as successful as I am because you know what I've also found in my research, Lewis? People aren't gritty when they're not happy. So if you want to be gritty and successful, you have to be happy. But maybe getting a divorce and getting out of the situation, maybe you'd have felt a sense of freedom and peace. Well, there is the road not taken. You know, it's like, oh, maybe I don't have anything. I'll have to go to therapy for a year and deal with stress and bills and like, oh, changing myself.

Like maybe it would have just been, I can be who I want and find someone else. So I have like nearly memorized the road not taken by Robert Frost, you know, like, you know, two roads diverged in the yellow wood and there I, the weary traveler, stood and looked down one as far as I could to where it bent in the undergrowth, haven't memorized the whole thing. That's the first stanza. And you get to the end, it's like, you know, basically the reason why that poem gets repeated all the time.

time is like, who hasn't thought about like, what if I hadn't stayed with you? Or like, what if I had got like, or what if I had stayed in Ireland or whatever it is, you know, you just have these like, what if I'd stayed in football? Like, you have these other roads, and they're not taken. I don't know what the other roads are. I haven't taken them. I'm trying not to swear, but I love this road. And I so love my husband. Like, I don't know.

But I will say this, the thoughts that I had in my head, like, this is ruined. Like, it's no longer a fairy tale. Like, I can't make you happy. Therefore, I'm a failure as a wife. Like, we are not meant to be. Those thoughts are not true. And it was only by changing my situation that I could change my thoughts to, well, you are miserable, and I am miserable. Facts. It doesn't have to be that way. It also doesn't mean that you're a congenitally miserable person, or that I am congenitally unable to be a good wife.

There were so many assumptions that I had in my head that hadn't I changed my situation, that it wouldn't have changed my thoughts, right? And I think one of the things I would really do, like, we've had a conversation before this where I said, I'm slightly uncomfortable being on book tour. But there is something I feel incredibly passionate about in psychology. And that is my job, right? I'm not a real estate developer. I'm a psychologist. Like, in psychology, there is this very simple way of understanding human behavior that I learned about halfway through my career, and I think is important to deliver to the world.

And it gets back to, like, well, how does this all fit together? There's just three boxes if you want to draw them on a piece of paper. And the third box is, like, how you respond, how you feel. Are you miserable? Are you happy? Are you confident? Are you working 10 hours that day or two hours that day? What did you eat? What did you drink? Like, any behavior you can think of, any feeling you can think of is in box three. And that's how you respond to what happened?

That's how you're responding, right? Your response. And people can be different, right? You're like, oh, you know, Ryan, you know, John, like Sally, like they stayed later. And, you know, Sue didn't, like, okay, that's the response, right? Then what happens in box two? Box two are your thoughts. So one of the reasons why many therapists today will identify themselves as cognitive therapists, like cognitive therapists work on- Your thoughts. Your thoughts. Like, what are the thoughts that are making you underconfident? Like, you're feeling like an imposter.

Let's think about the thoughts that go through your head together. Like, let's try to understand, you know, you don't think this marriage is going to work. You feel, whatever you feel, like, it's the thought. So cognitive therapy, like, you go and a therapist helps you interrogate and challenge maybe maladaptive and inaccurate thoughts, right? So I think that's a lot of, that's a lot of growth. You talk about greatness, I think a lot of that is becoming aware of your self-talk and your thoughts. But I want to say, and I'm not saying that therapists are not saying this too, but I want to say that there's another box.

It's like, okay, that's box two and box three. You know what box one is? Box one is your situation. Like, who are you with? Like, are you with a therapist or you're not with a therapist? I mean, I also came clean to my friends who I had not really been sharing this with on the whole. There were also professional changes we make. We changed box one. We changed our situation. When you change your situation, you automatically change your thoughts. When you change your thoughts, you automatically change your behavior.

So I feel unapologetic and unequivocal that like people should understand that everything you do comes from what you think and everything you think is influenced by your situation. I believe that for sure. And this, you know, this guy, this younger guy who came yesterday to meet with me. The one who asked you for advice? I love this question, by the way. I already love this guy. I've never met him. Nice guy. I was telling him like, listen, you know, everything I went through, all the challenges they've all taught me who I am today and this and that, you know, and I'm grateful for all the experiences.

But I know that my energy was drained so many times and for so long in certain relationships and I don't blame anyone else. I take full responsibility. And I wish I would have learned that skill on how to navigate those situations better, sooner, because now being married for, you know, and with Martha for the last five years, it has brought me so much greater energy in my life, more joy that has allowed me to expand my energy in positive ways. I feel like better, right? It's giving me more and more energy, giving me more confidence, all these things and less stress.

Yeah. And I think whenever I'm stressed, I make worse decisions in life and I, and I make, you know, and I don't respond, like you said, in the third box as well. Right. You're not your best self. Not your best self. I'm like a six out of a 10 every day or like a four out of 10. So are you like a different Louis because like it's Louis and Martha? A hundred percent. Yeah. A hundred percent. And this is the interesting thing. You mentioned therapy because when I met Martha, I was so clear that I was not going to allow chemical emotions to cloud my thinking, to just act, Oh, we're in love.

And this is amazing. And it feels good. And let's just not ask the deep questions. And this feels good being around each other. So early on when we were dating, um, in the first couple of months, I was like, listen, we're having an amazing time. And it seems like it feels so many things are lining up. We're like, this is amazing. Right. But I said, for whatever reason, I'm not willing to get into a committed relationship unless we start in therapy. Really? Yes. At the beginning of your relationship?

Beginning of the relationship, because every other relationship ended in therapy and it never worked out. So I said, we have the tail. And I was like, I don't want to go over the next year of everything's going to be great. And then we move in, in a year, a year and a half or whatever it is. And then we start finding out things about each other that don't work. We're trying to go back to that feeling you had with Jason, right? In the beginning, you try to remember that fantasy of the beginning and you can't find it because you're stressed out, you're overwhelmed, you hate each other, whatever it is.

And I was like, I don't want to get to that point. I want to know that we have shared values, shared vision, and shared lifestyle in the beginning. And we're really honest with each other. And maybe quickly we find out it doesn't work out. Yeah. Which is great. I'd rather do that in three to six months than three to six years. God, I've never heard of this before. This is awesome. It was the best thing that we have ever done because right away she said, absolutely, let's do it.

Which I thought she was doing. Also a good sign. Great sign. Such a good sign. Yeah. And we were able to just navigate little misunderstandings, little potential disagreements that could have blown up into something bigger so quickly. And it wasn't always comfortable. And there were some moments that were vulnerable and it was like, oh, this doesn't feel good. But we were able to work through it with a mentor, a third party. That's all they do. Instead of us figuring it out when we're emotional, it was the greatest gift we gave ourselves and our relationship.

How long did you go to this? Probably about a year. Wow. In the first year. And it was just like, we appreciated each other. You're a genius. Because I know we're in this together and we've done this work early and we're willing to keep figuring things out together when we need to. And it's been the most beautiful five-year experience with someone ever. Yeah. And again, we've faced challenges. We have adversity we're going through and different stuff. We just had twin girls 10 months ago, challenges at hospital, all these different things are happening.

But the fact that we created almost a framework of connection, of vulnerability, of we're in this together in the beginning has created a better relationship now. Again, it doesn't guarantee we're going to have this perfect relationship forever. I'm just saying it's created a much more peace within us. And I just think it's a valuable thing to explore. So I have never met anybody who was like, oh, and then when we first started dating, I was like- But I went through so much pain, Angela, for 20 years of multiple relationships that were just heart-wrenching for me, that didn't work out.

That I was like, my ability to have grit and pursue and create was diminished because of one situation. Talk about in your book. Right. And the people that we surround ourselves with, the mentors, the friends, the coaches, the teachers, those are the environments in my mind that are more important than making sure your space is clean and you're in the right city and things like that. Totally agree. Yes, those- Those are also elements. Yes, those environments are crucial. But if you are in an emotionally trapped environment with a coach, a mentor, a friend who's holding you hostage, who's gaslighting you, that you're pouring into and you feel like it is exhausting and it will suck the life out of you.

So I feel like the people situations that you're in- Those are the most important. Are the most emotionally important. Yeah. And everything else as well, stack everything you can, like you talk about in your book, but it's the people that hold you back. And so many people I've interviewed, they're like, make sure you choose a person you marry wisely. Really? Has that come up as a theme? Yeah, because it impacts everything. So it's not just venture capitalists? I asked my therapist this, who works with a lot of very financially successful older men, who are maybe in their 50s, 60s, and 70s.

And she has a lot of high-profile clients and things like that. And I'm asking her, after a year and a half or a couple of years of doing this, and I was doing individual therapy and then hers with couples therapy as well. When I did this session at one point, she was like, so what do you want to talk about? I was like, man, I just feel so good. And it was just happening every time. I was like, I don't really know how anything to talk about.

But I go, how about this? Let's go into the future, future Lewis. Say everything works out for me, everything I want. And I accomplished everything and all my dreams come true, and I'm healthy, I'm happy, all these things. What's going to be my biggest challenge in 10, 20 years? Based on the pattern recognition you see with all your clients- You asked her this question and you asked your therapist this question. I said, what are your clients coming to you and what is their biggest challenge? And you say, all these men who are very successful that come to her, they have fallen out of grace.

They have allowed the temptations of the world to take them out of essentially their situation, their marriage. They've cheated with someone, they've strayed from the family, they've allowed their power, their money, their success- Their ego, whatever. To get to them, whatever. And they made mistakes that ruined their life. So they ruined their situation that's a good thing for something else maybe more tempting. And then they spend years trying to regain respect from their kids or their- Repair. They eventually try to get back with the wife or whatever it might be, and it's too late.

And so she was like, just be thinking of that because you're going to continue to grow, you're going to continue to succeed. Right. And you're going to be more successful and the temptations are going to be greater. Exactly. So make sure you continue to have a bond where you're staying connected, you're staying present, and you're working on things together. Right. And I think that is the thing where most people fail is they get too successful and then they forget, I guess they forget about who they are.

So look, you can be like, what's more important? The people, places, or things? I'm like, and you want to argue people, right? Like first is people. Your relationships, like first and foremost is right because they're dragging you down or they're bringing you up. They're helping you remember who you are or they're distracting you from like you're about. So I think I'll agree with you on that. Like I hadn't thought about like a rank ordering, but like if there's one... And imagine if your husband was not supportive of your career, was just kind of put doubt inside of you.

We worked in the same company. This is how we met. So we were both in graduate school, but we were about to go to McKinsey Consulting and he's very proactive, like, you know, Boy Scout class president type. And so he's like, I'm going to organize a dinner for all the people who are going to go work at McKinsey Consulting in New York City. I'm a little less like, yeah, it's great. And you know, that's why you need people to like organize your high school reunion. Like he's your guy.

So he organizes this dinner and I meet him. Yeah. Fall in love. But the point is that we both went to McKinsey. And so we were, you know, like in the same track and I wasn't more successful than him, but I will say... You're smarter than him. Better looking. More charming. I wore shorter skirts. I will say that. I got that feedback at a performance review. They're like, yeah, you know, he liked that. But apparently not my engagement manager. But so here's the thing. Being a successful person, I think, is hard.

Being a successful woman in a marriage, I think, can be hard for the husband. He frequently reminds me that he is the son of like his parents divorced. And so he was raised by both his father and his mother, but like not at the same time. And his mother, Sharon, is an incredibly strong woman, very ambitious. She became a school superintendent. And he frequently reminds me that like I should be more articulate about this list, but maybe is it because it's emotional or is because it's hard to describe the support that this man gives me?

Like it's not that he tolerates my success. It's not that he is capable of like managing his own ego. And by the way, he is successful, too. But I think he would point to my success like it is true love, right? When it's like, I assume that like the greater that Lewis is, like the more fulfilled Martha herself is like it is that way on my, you know, on my side of this marriage. Like I feel like, you know, like like he might enjoy my success more than I do.

I think that's good words into you on a consistent basis around your project that you're working on. I think he is a lot more like his ballast. You know, I mean, I get like very excited about things like and he has a steadiness. There's like a you know, there's like a solidity to Jason Duckworth. I think he also is like ethically and morally like I don't know a lot of people. I don't know a lot of people who did what you did at the very beginning of the relationship.

But I also can say I don't know a lot of people like like Jason is actively trying to be a better person, like he actively prays to be a better person. Like he asked the question, like, is this the most ethical way? You know, like we're now in our 50s. Like, is this the ethical way to be like using our money, using our time? So I have this person in my life who has like unconditional. It's not like in any marriage, like, you know, you're also happy with the other person, but like this unconditional commitment and unconditional support.

But then also he's this like, you know, paragon of like, integrity, like, I am not an immoral person. But I don't think on like, you know, Like I don't wake up in the morning and pray like, oh, I wonder if I could be a better person today. I mean, I try to be nice, but I think he's another level and yeah, think about the, okay. So like, let's assume that Robert Frost is right and our life is a road and we, and you know, sometimes we come to like a fork in the road and we could be with this person or that person.

We could go to therapy or not go to therapy. We could stay in our job or not stay in our job. We could move or not move. We'll never know the roads not taken. There's not only one road not taken, there are an uncountable roads not taken. I don't know what the roads are like with a different husband. I don't know what, um, what Angela Duckworth with another relationship would be. But this road that I'm on, I just look back at the road and I'm like, I could not have come this far.

Like I wouldn't, I wouldn't even, um, you know, I, I shared with you this, um, you know, my mom, by the way, I think would be okay with, you know, my relaying this anecdote because now she's 91 and I think she looks back and she was like, what was I talking about when you were at college graduation? Like probably not the thing to say. Like, you know, I'm glad you're happy, you know, you could be a wife, but I know this road that I've been on and I know that there's no way I would get this far.

And one reason I know is that being raised in that, you know, be a good wife, you know, like make him happy. Like literally I was told at the beginning of my marriage, like my mom, again, not the 91 year old I have now, but back then she was like, when he comes home, play some soft music and like, as if you were a lion or something, it's like, play some soft music and like, you know, rub his feet and like, you know, always have the food ready.

So I don't think the ambitious Angela that I am today, who's like, I'm going to, I'm going to just go, like, I'm going to be as great a psychologist I can be. I want to like, I want to do everything I can. I don't think I would have given myself that permission if I hadn't gotten his support. So like, I don't know what the other roads are, but I'm so far down this road and this road has taken me to places that I would never have dreamed of even like allowing myself to want to go.

Wow. Right. Because yeah, like, and we're so happily married and you know, this ring, so this is the ring I, you know, I got engaged with this ring, right? And then we got married, we got this ring and I have a third ring. And after our marriage crisis, uh, where a little bit of grit and a lot better situation, like, you know, here we are and therapy, so much therapy. Right. Well, I was part of the better situation. Right. So like you re-imagined a new situation.

Exactly. And like many situational improvements, like it leads to an even better situation because like now you're, you know, now you're making better decisions across the board. This third ring is like, you know, the ring to celebrate our second marriage, like the sort of, you know, like we are not just going to try harder individually or even together to like, we will, when we're stuck. I mean, here's a way to know, like you asked me at the very beginning, like, do we know like on schedule?

And I said, I think we often know too late, but here's a way to know if you are trying and then you're trying harder still and you do not feel like you are making progress in your marriage, in your career, in your friendships, in your health, in anything, you're like more effort is not producing more results. I think that is the time you should stop. Ask yourself, is it the situation like, do I need to pivot and put myself in a better situation? And then, you know, of course, like then, then keep trying.

I mean, I'll never stop believing in try harder, but that I think is the signal. And I think I missed that signal. I was just like, Oh, just like keep going. Yeah. I mean, that's the problem with the superpower, right? Like it, like it's a kryptonite you don't realize. My friend, I hope you're enjoying this episode and the School of Greatness drops new conversations every Monday, Wednesday, and Friday around money, mindset, healing, manifestation, and relationships. And if you're not yet following the show, then you're missing all of them.

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Let's hypothetically go back and say, you know, you stayed in the relationship and it wasn't, maybe it got a little bit better, but it wasn't really transforming after therapy and you guys just cut it. We're just going to stick this out for the kids or whatever, like, we're just going to stay in this. You're asking me to like think through this counterfactual, right? Just go back, go back in time. Go back in time, but also imagine that like, yeah. And let's just say the marriage got maybe a little bit better, but it's kind of just like running its course and you're just staying together.

And let's say he wasn't encouraging. Maybe he wasn't negative, but he wasn't like positively encouraging you and supporting you in projects and books and speeches and, you know, championing you as a partner. Do you think him being neutral or even him putting doubt inside of you with negative words or negative thoughts, would that have hurt your experience in life and hurt you from accomplishing what you've accomplished? Do you think you would have been able to overcome that with that type of situation? I feel like you like literally just described my mother's marriage to my father, right?

So I know what that looks like because that was her. So, you know, my parents also fell head over heels in love. They were actually fabulously good looking. I watched these like old movies of them and I was like, holy, my mother was like a female, you know, like, like, like she was a goddess. I mean, she looked like a Chinese Sophia Loren. And my dad actually, to my shock and awe, was like actually pretty good looking, too. And you know, he had a big white convertible.

I mean, they had this like very head over heels romance, much like Jason and I. But you just described really, I think, what their marriage was like. So my mother immigrated to this country, like knowing no one, first in her family. She spoke hardly any English. She wanted to be an artist and she thought she could do it, you know, make her dream come true in America, right? So she changed her situation, moved countries. She changed her situation, which I think is good. Step one. Step one.

Yeah, she has situational agency. My mother is a paragon of situational agency, but her situation wasn't perfect. So she moved from, you know, Taiwan to the United States. That was a better situation because like as a woman, you can go to art school in the United States. Like she went to great art schools here. But there was challenges because she didn't know the language and other challenges. And she overcame them. Yeah. She's also gritty. Okay. But in marrying my dad, who went by YK because he's like a very unpronounceable, tonal Chinese name.

Let's call him YK because that's what everyone did. In marrying YK, Teresa married into a very traditional marriage, like a very traditional Chinese marriage, because though they were in the United States, they were both raised in China in the 1930s. So not only was she raised to be a good wife, he was raised to marry a good wife. And he married her because she was beautiful, but not because she was smart and creative and awesome. Well, awesome, maybe. But mostly because she was beautiful and kind, but not because she was like a great artist and like ambitious and smart.

Because like my mom was every bit as, you know, is as every bit as smart as my dad was. My dad's now passed. So when you describe this marriage, it's like, Angela, go back in time. Imagine greatness and the ceiling that, you know, how high would it be if you had a different supporter at home? If you had somebody who was giving you like, you know, doubts and so forth and was like actually resentful. I was like, I don't have to imagine it because that is the marriage my mother had.

So what happened to this? Like, and my mom, by the way, was maybe more talented than you and I were. Like she was a prodigy. Like I saw the paintings, she still has them, that she made when she was a teenager. And I really think she had a gift. So she had a gift and she had grit and she was in America. Like what's, you know, what's wrong? What's wrong? Well, the trifecta, but I guess there are four things because she didn't have the marriage. So my dad was not mean and not a bad person.

Kind of dismissive or kind of just like. Not supportive. Right. Like, don't do that stuff. You're supposed to be doing this. Well, like, you know what, like, let's start a wholesale needlepoint company because it will make money. Yes. Practical. Do you know what needlepoint is? Needlepoint meaning, what is that? Okay. It's a handicraft. I thought it was like sewing. It's a version of sewing. Yeah. Yeah. Okay. You get this canvas. Yeah. It's like. It's like an artwork needlepoint. Is that what you mean? Yeah. Like the canvas is usually like painted with like, I don't know, like a unicorn or like your dog or something.

Right. Or it could have like a saying, like, you know, like home is where the heart is and like, it's painted. So you get this white canvas and it's painted and needlepoint is this. Like string in there. Like a. Yeah. So this is like, you know, by the way, this is partly why their like business idea didn't take off. But anyway, like nobody does needlepoint. Like you, you like if it's green, you stitch green and if it's yellow, you stitch yellow. So my dad's idea like was not necessarily a bad, it's like not evil, but when you're married to somebody, your job is not to make them happy, but your job is to help them realize their dreams.

And my dad did not do that. So he wanted my mom to run this business. Do you want to like, they became small business owners. I mean, he had a career. He was a chemist, but he gave her this assignment, which is like side hustle. Yeah. Full-time side hustle. So she ran this business, this like needlepoint business where she was like painting dogs on canvas and like, you know, you know, like whatever, you know, home is where the heart is like whatever it is like unicorns and then, you know, getting other people to paint them and then selling them to stores and not doing what she came to this country to do, which is to be a painter herself, like a real painter.

And that was their whole marriage until he died. And then he did die. And that is when my mom started painting again. Come on. No. Yeah. Like, so how many years were they together until he died? Over 50. Gosh, I must not have like a mind for numbers. I'm like, how many years? Okay. Definitely over 50. So for 50 years. 50 plus. 50 plus years. I've been married 25 plus. She did all the hard work to get to this country to like start pursuing it. But then not in a negative way or a bad way.

She was trying to be a great wife and she was trying to show up for what your father wanted, I guess. And that situation, if you want to contend that the most important part of getting situated is like being with the right partner. He was many things, but supportive about art. He was not curious. Like I grew up in that house. We never went to the art museum. Like there is a beautiful art museum in Philadelphia. It looks like it should be in Greece. It's like, you know, one of the greatest art museums in the world.

We never went to the art museum. Like, you know, my mom, you know, like had one painting that I used to like it had like cherry blossoms and there was another painting that had boats. Those are only two paintings in my house. Now that we've talked about this and, you know, life is long and you learn a lot. And now my 91 year old mother looks back and says, like, I should have said something. I should have done something. I asked her why there weren't more paintings like when we were growing up.

And she was like, well, you know, I was taking care of your father. He was like my fourth child. And she said, you know, sometimes I would paint something like because I would find like a stolen hour on the side, you know, between lunch and dinner and and I would put it up on the wall and nobody would say anything. And especially your father, like he would walk by a new painting for months and never acknowledge anything because he didn't notice like he didn't notice. So like, I don't know, Martha, but I already look like like that's changed your life.

You know, I think that's Jason's changed my life. And I think, you know, obviously, there are a lot of people who are like, sounds great. How do I get one? But even knowing that, like who you are in a certain relationship is like a different you. Like, I'm not the same Angela. So it's not only a poem about like the road not taken, like, OK, I'm on this road. It's not only like I'm like this traveler is not the same traveler because I did take that road.

Like, right. And it's changed me. Yeah, but you've had an encouraging, supportive partner throughout this whole time. And yeah, not a perfect person, but like, yeah, but he's been encouraging. He hasn't doubt in your mind maybe once in a while, but it sounds like consistently he puts he reinforces positive encouragement in your mind with supportive energy and cheering you on instead of doubting you or neglecting you. Right. And this is not like Angela and her marriage and so forth. But Angela, the professor and psychologist, you can tell you what.

So one of the really surprising things about confidence and I think, you know what, thousands of podcast episodes, right, like the theme of confidence, of belief, like I believed I could do it right. Believing you can do something always proceeds doing it. You don't do things you don't believe you can do. Human beings cannot go against the grain of their own confidence. Your partner is telling you, you can't do this. Exactly. OK, so. Exhausting. So I don't know in the marriage context, I'm sure this is true, but but in other contexts, it's like been shown in research.

How much of your belief comes from other people's belief? It's borrowed. Just saying, I believe in you. Just saying, hey, I believe you can do it. Yeah, and then acting that way and so forth. So how important is it to have a partner who believes in you, a coach who believes in you, a boss who believes in you, a best friend who believes in you? It's the nature of human nature that our self-confidence comes from other people. So there's this experiment that's called the Pygmalion Effect.

It's actually appropriately, since we ended up talking about love and marriage and Martha and Jason. So it's not a true story and it's not a research study, but the Pygmalion myth from Greek mythology is that there is a sculptor whose name is Pygmalion and he carves a statue out of ivory that is so beautiful that he falls in love with it. And he so believes that this statue is real that the goddess of love, Aphrodite, like sort of looks down on this mortal and takes some pity on him and basically brings the statue to life.

And the reason why this research study is called the Pygmalion Effect is because the idea is that if you truly believe in somebody else, like it will transform them, it will bring them to life. So the study is that there are these little kids at an elementary school in California and they're just going through elementary school and before the beginning of the school year, this Harvard psychologist named Bob Rosenthal who came to this hypothesis that belief is borrowed, that self-confidence comes from other people, that you need to be in these relationships because who has the belief that they can do something until someone else says they can do it and acts like they can do it.

So he randomly assigns these kids to either be labeled as gifted or not, right? And for the gifted group, he goes and he tells their teachers, he's like, oh, by the way, here's the list of kids before the school year starts. I gave them the like Harvard test of inflected reasoning. I mean, he made this up, he made up the test, he made up the title, but it sounded very fancy like he was a Harvard professor. And he said, and these are your bloomers and it might not be obvious on day one of school and it may not be obvious on day 10, but like before the end of school year, you will see that they bloom because they are gifted.

So he gave the teachers the belief in the kids, right, experimentally. We'll just wait it to see what happened. And sure enough, it was a self-fulfilling prophecy. The teachers believed that these kids would be great. That gave the kids the confidence that they were great. And even on IQ tests, especially the youngest kids, like they literally did better by a lot by the end of the year. And so the Pygmalion effect is the reality that our belief, Angela Duckworth's belief in Angela Duckworth is not just because of Angela Duckworth, it's because of Jason Duckworth.

And you know, like another like set of people, but it's just evidence that your relationships matter to not only like what your opportunities are, but like how you think about yourself as a person. Yes, and that's why I think your book is so powerful situated because it's about finding the people and places that bring out your best. And you said people first in the title. I guess I could have said places and was, yeah, it takes primacy, right? It's called position. People because, and you talk about mentorship and relationships, the relationships we choose to create.

And obviously when you're a kid, you can't choose your parents and siblings, but at some point, hopefully your parents can choose your friends for you early on and start putting you in those relationships and putting you in the right school environment or whatever it might be to set you up for that success. But when we're adults, if we have the opportunity to choose people specifically that pour into you positive re-encouragement, positive self-belief, it is going to give you such a greater advantage than being in the perfect school and perfect place without those people giving that to you.

Like you like the people part. I couldn't agree more. And Liz, it's really not like, oh, you'll be 5% more productive. Like you'll be 7% more efficient. Like it is. I think to me, the transformative element is that you don't know who you could become. That's the thing. And your mom. Who could she have become? Not that she's not great right now and she raised great kids and she had a great marriage, but- Who could my mother have become? Who could she become? Who could my, like what- And it doesn't mean that she could have been a famous, maybe she could have been famous, but maybe she could have just enjoyed her life more creating the art she had inside of her.

Yeah, like she will tell you herself that she asked that question, right? And again, is she sorry that she raised her family? Like did she feel like she had infinite freedom? Like, no, but yeah, no. And you'll be happy to know at age 91. I mean, she paints every day. Like- And how does it make her feel or look or what's her energy like? She texted me once and she said in this text message, like, when I paint, I have no age. Like I forget that I am old.

Wow. Right? And she says like every day I'm good to work to like make these dreams come true. Yeah, like God bless. She's very healthy 91 year old. But I think it's just, I mean, it really is. It's like, okay, now she's in a situation where like there are people, I asked her about her art. Like growing up, I was not part of a situation that was supportive. I never asked mom, like, do you want to go to the art museum? Like, what are you working on?

Like, do you like this painting? Like now I ask her about her art. I ask her to send pictures of her art. I go to her art studio. Like I'm only a tiny part of that situation, but yeah, and I think the point that I'm, you know, inadequately expressing is like, again, it's not about 5% or 7% gains. It's a transformation in like, in who you are. Like you're, you are a different person. You are a different person when you're in a different situation. So true.

I've got a couple of final questions for you. This has been powerful. I didn't even ask you any questions. I can't believe we talked about my marriage the whole time. I think it's fascinating. It's okay. But I think it's an important part of my life. I think you learn so much about a human being based on the people they're with. And I just don't think you would be as happy and healthy and, you know, successful in your career without a great partner supporting you and encouraging you.

We talked about off camera about, you know, early on in your career, you thought you might want to study the placebo. I'm a big fan of the placebo of like, even if it's not true, if you believe something to be true, it gives you that, that belief, that energy, that confidence. And that's the self-fulfilling prophecy, right? It is. And it's like, and it makes you more gritty and all these things support each other. And by the way, the Pygmalion effect and the placebo effect are highly related.

They're both about belief and they're both about the belief preceding the reality, but then creating the reality, right? There's a book out by Nir Eyal. Do you know him? He wrote a book called Beyond Belief. Yeah. It's really interesting. I think his book is Nir Eyal. He's a psychologist, right? Yes, yes. Like Israeli? Am I guessing? Yes, yes. Okay, yeah. It's called Beyond Belief. I haven't read it, but I think I read his previous book. The book is powerful. Yeah. I think the previous book was called Hooked.

I think it was. Yes, that is the one. Yeah, about distractions. The new one is about belief. You should check it out. It's called Beyond Belief. And I believe he was also atheist, I believe, before from what he was talking about. And he said, in all my research of studying beliefs and the benefits of beliefs, I now pray to God, even though I don't necessarily, I didn't grow up thinking about this, but I never prayed before. But prayer makes you happier and healthier and helps you accomplish your goals more.

So I'm going to believe. So I believe it. Even if I don't know really a hundred percent there's a God out there. I choose to believe. I choose to believe based on the psychological, emotional, and health benefits in my life, prayer. And so I pray every day because I believe it's going to make me better. And then when you talk about your husband, Jason, how he prays every day to be better and how can I have more integrity and make better choices. You know what? There are lots of books about believing, and I am not saying that you shouldn't read that one, but I will say, mindset, like there are lots of things about what you do in your mind.

You pray, you meditate, you set goals. I think, I believe in all of it, by the way. Like I think there should be a thousand books, a million books, right? Because that is a lot of changing like your behavior to be better than you were yesterday. But I would tell you this, many people, let's take prayer as an example. Why are there churches and mosques and synagogues, right? Why are there sacred spaces, right? Well, the same reason why there are libraries and restaurants. And art museums.

And art museums and art studios, right? And I know we've talked a lot about relationships as being the most important part of your situation, but just on the side of the, like the physical spaces matter too, right? I think prayer is easier in certain places. You could pray at Starbucks, you know? And maybe some people are really good at praying at Starbucks, but when I go to church, which I do, you know, like that's a different space, right? More present to it. You're more, you know, at least for me, right?

So again, like it's a late understanding of mine in a way, because I think I was like, if you just try hard, everything will work out. It's like, no, no, no, you should just try hard in a great situation. I think that situation should have the people who bring out your best first and foremost. I think we agree. And the environment. And the physical environment, right? Well, you put people first, so, you know, that's why. Yeah, I know. We're on the same page there. I'm with you, like I'm speaking from the same hymnal, but I think the physical matter, I mean, when I walked into this place, I was like, oh, I love it, right?

Like, and I think it was- We tried to create that experience. Great vibe, right? Like details matter. So like, do all the details matter the same? No, but I think like once you just open your eyes, like just look around, right? Like look around, who are you with? Where are you? What is within reach? Like, what do you see? You know, do you like the billboards in the city that you live in? Or do you look at those billboards and you say like, what am I doing here?

I will tell you, the billboards are different in LA than they are in Philadelphia. They're not as, they're probably not as, they don't make you feel as good, probably. Well, have you been to Philadelphia? Oh, I haven't been there a lot of times, so maybe. I know the weather is better here. I think our billboards are 90% about like- We can see the billboards, you can't see in the rain there, the clouds. Okay, that's true. Well, that's the other problem. But in Philadelphia, our billboards are mostly like, you know, like how to, you know, sue people, like, you know, like- Oh, do you like political or government or like legal?

Like the legal thing where like, you know, the guys- There's a lot of those here too, though. On the highway, they're everywhere. Yeah. Okay, well, maybe that'll make me feel better. I just like passed a lot of entertainment ones, so I just thought like very different things. But yeah, you should just be, I think, be aware of, before you change your situation, right? Because absolutely you should. But I think just being aware, that's probably step one. Just like notice- Yeah. That's it. Angela, this has been powerful.

I got a couple of fun questions. This question is something I asked everyone at the end called the three truths. Okay. Hypothetical scenario, you get to live as long as you want, but it's your last day on earth. You get to accomplish and create everything you want on this road that you're on. But for whatever reason, in the hypothetical scenario, you have to take all of your work with you. So this book is gone. Great is gone. All of your speeches, content, video, all gone. From this world.

Including this podcast. Everything's gone. Everything before this moment. But you get to leave behind three truths. Three lessons that you've learned from your experience that you would share with the world. And we get to keep that. What would those three truths be for you? Number one, effort is the final common path to greatness. Number two, effort pays off more in certain situations than others. Number three, you can change your situation for the better. Another hypothetical scenario, if you could go back to the day you graduated, where your mom put her hands on your shoulders and said, now you can be a wife.

Now you're ready to be a wife. If you could go back and just hypothetically time travel, you are who you are now, and you see that girl then on graduation day, and if you were able to send a message to her and speak to her for 30 to 60 seconds, and you were able to look in the camera and speak to her, what would that message be to her of everything that she's about to go through, and what advice would you give her? I'd say, Angie, you think of life as a watercolor, and you think that when you brush a stroke of pigment, you can't undo it, but that's not the right metaphor, because life is not a watercolor painting where the job is to be perfect, make no mistakes, and that things get ruined unless they don't get ruined.

It's an oil painting. In an oil painting, you can just throw on a whole nother layer that things, you know, it's a work in progress. When I was 22, I thought I would just try harder and harder, live as perfect a life as I could in every dimension, and when things did go south in any endeavor, I did try harder, but in that one crucial decision where I chose the road I chose, I chose the road with Jason, it was a shift from the watercolor metaphor, like this marriage must be ruined, to like, it's an oil painting, and if we can put ourselves in the right situation, then we're going to be more than okay, and if I hadn't shifted metaphors, I would not have been able to make those adjustments that put us on the road I'm glad I'm on.

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The Range Rover event is on now. Explore enhanced offers at RangeRover.com. Well, Angie, I want to acknowledge you for the book you created, Situated. Find the people and places that bring out your best. People first. People first. For me, this is the book everyone should be reading right now because I'm just a big believer proximity is power. And this gives you more tools and more wisdom on how to make sure you're in proximity to the right people and places to support your goals, support your dreams, and ultimately live a better life, live a happier, more fulfilled life in a world where a lot of people are struggling and stressing.

And that's what we try to do here on The School of Greatness is give people those tools. So I want to acknowledge you for this. I want to acknowledge you for opening up and talking about your marriage. I don't know if you thought you'd be doing that here today. I did not think so. But you know what? I was happy to do it. Can I ask you a question? I know that you often ask your interviewees, your guests, what their definition of greatness is. Well, that's my next question for you.

But can you answer it for me? For me, it's discovering your unique talents and gifts that God gave you to pursue your dreams, and in that pursuit, making the maximum impact on the people around you. And earlier in my life, I would have thought greatness is about being the best, being number one, and winning. And that's kind of what I thought it was when I was a teenager or 20s, something. And I realized that definition or that belief in my mind got me those results, but left me feeling unhappy because I was making it all about me and what I wanted, rather about we and service.

And so then as I started to start The School of Greatness, I went through a healing journey and a journey of more self-discovery and wondering why I was feeling this anger and frustration inside of me, even though I was accomplishing everything that I wanted. But why am I unhappy? Why am I in breakdown in relationship? What's going on? And I realized I was just like, oh, that's not the secret to a fulfilling life. It's about we. It's about everyone needs to win. It should be about win-win, not win-lose.

And in sports, you're just conditioned, like win, give your best, like get better and improve. And if you're not a winner, you're a loser. So that framework of sports is a win-lose, unless you look at sports differently and say, even if I lose, how can I win? Even if I lose, where's the lesson? Where was the growth? Where was the good? What about that moment we had as teammates? Like, what did I learn from my coach? What about that sportsmanship that we created here? Or what about the other team was really negative and nasty and I responded with my integrity?

You know, whatever it might be, where's the win in the loss? And I just never thought of that when I was growing up. I thought like, if we don't win, then I'm a loser. I am a loser. And I cannot deal with feeling like I am. I experienced a loss. It was an identity of I am, instead of we experienced this loss in this game, but I'm not a loser. And it was like, no, any loss, I am not enough. And so it was more of a, oh, this is an unsustainable way of living life.

And I believe like your mom, she had an incredible talent and gift that God, someone gave her, that she was curious about. She wanted to paint and she pursued that for a while. And then she had to diminish it for a while. And now she's doing it again. And she says she feels ageless. And it doesn't mean she has to be some famous world-class painter that is recognized in the Philadelphia museum and makes millions of dollars, but she feels the most alive she's ever felt. It sounds like pursuing her gift and talent.

And I believe it shouldn't be with only ourselves. It should be shared, our gift and talent, whether that's with a small community, friends, family, the world, whatever it might be. But if we don't share it, then I don't think it's greatness. So it's finding a way to discover our talents and gifts, sharing with others and making an impact on those people around us with our talents. That's for me what it is. But what's your definition of greatness? I think greatness is being part of and in service to something larger than yourself.

And that is also the definition I would give for meaning. And the longer explanation is this. I think the psychologist who has influenced me at least as much as any other is Viktor Frankl. Yeah. Man's search for meaning. So great. Stimulus and response. And I think Viktor Frankl is not understood. I think there's a mistake we make when we think of Viktor Frankl. People are like, oh, right, the psychiatrist who survived Auschwitz. That's true. Stimulus and response, right? Between stimulus and response, there's a space. In that space, we find our freedom.

He often quoted Nietzsche. And he would say things about how you cannot always change your situation, but you can change how you respond to the situation. And I think that's the lesson that people take from Man's Search for Meaning and then his own triumph in adversity. Because when you are in a concentration camp, there's very little you can do to change your situation. But if you read Man's Search for Meaning carefully, he says two things that I think are not always understood about Viktor Frankl. One is he says emphatically, when you can change your situation, you should.

Because not to do so would be foolish and masochistic. Don't stay in a horrible situation. I mean, maybe you are in a concentration camp. You have zero degrees of freedom. You can't change where this cup is. You can't change what's in the cup. You can't change where your phone is. You can't change whether you hang out with this person or that person. You have zero freedom. I think Viktor Frankl, when he escaped, when he was released from the concentration camps, and he came especially to lecture in America, he said emphatically that you do have freedoms, and so you should consider them responsibly.

So that's one mistake we make that Viktor Frankl did not want us to only think about how we respond to our situation. Viktor Frankl wanted us to be in better situations and make those better for others. The second thing I'll say- Maybe him, he would have put places first over the people. I don't know. Viktor Frankl, I wish I'm not going to put words in Viktor Frankl, and he probably would say, oh, it's both. He probably put people first. But Viktor Frankl had a debate. When you talk about what you are trying to accomplish in the short time you have on this planet, Louis, and I think our definitions of greatness overlap, it's about pointing towards something that's not you.

Greatness isn't self-actualization. It is what Frankl called self-transcendence. So again, I don't know that people got into the nitty-gritty of what Viktor Frankl wrote about for the rest of his life, because he wrote over 30 books. Man's Search for Meaning was the first. He had a debate with Abraham Maslow. Abraham Maslow- Really? Yes. They were contemporaries. Both Jewish. Abraham Maslow born in the Bronx or something, or Brooklyn, so did not survive the concentration camps, but they sparred. They're both great psychologists. The reason why they debate each other is they had a disagreement over what was the highest expression of human existence.

In other words, what is greatness? In 1943, Maslow wrote a paper with a hierarchy of needs on the bottom. It's like food and safety. Exactly, all the survival needs. Then there's to love and be loved. He never drew a pyramid, but the top of this hierarchy was self-actualization, realizing your potential, realizing your gifts and your ambitions, but that was not what you gave. You said in service to others. The debate was that Viktor Frankl thought Abraham Maslow had missed the final layer. He called it self-transcendence.

He said it's not self-actualization. It's to be pointed outward to something greater than yourself, to other people. I will just say that I think a lesson that I would hope people would take from a careful reading of Man's Search for Meaning and Viktor Frankl is that greatness is not self-actualization. It is self-actualization in service of self-transcendence. I like it. You can either take that lesson or the fact that Viktor Frankl doesn't want you to be a masochist and suffer an illusion. He doesn't want you to be in a bad marriage.

He doesn't want you to have a toxic work environment. I do think that there's so much wisdom there. I do believe that there is a space between stimulus and response. In there, there lies freedom. I also believe that you can change the stimulus itself. Yeah, marry Martha or Jason. Find your Martha. Find your Jason. Be with the people who bring out your best. It will change your life. It will change you. Amen. Amen. Angela, I appreciate you being here. I want to make sure people get the book Situated.

It's out right now. Also, hopefully, we see you more on Instagram because I saw some sparse content on there, but hopefully, you're on there more frequently in the future. We're working on it. I changed that situation. You're going to see me on it. Angela Duckworth on Instagram, Duckworth Lab on YouTube as well. Angie, thank you so much for being here. I appreciate you very much. I enjoyed it. Thank you. My friend, I hope you're enjoying this episode right now because we are on a mission to impact 100 million lives every single week.

Every follow here on this podcast helps us reach more people. Make sure to hit the follow at the top of this show's page right now. It's the single biggest thing that you can do to support the show and the impact of us reaching you every single time we have new episodes. I appreciate you and I can't wait to see you in the next episode. I hope you enjoyed today's episode and it inspired you on your journey towards greatness. Make sure to check out the show notes in the description for a full rundown of today's episode with all the important links.

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