The "Productivity Trap" That's Ruining Your Life | Andrew Ross Sorkin

Key Takeaway

Don't let market anxiety paralyze you. When worrying about crashes or economic downturns, ask yourself: "Would it help?" This simple question from Bridge of Spies can transform useless anxiety into productive action. The key to financial wellbeing isn't avoiding all debt or timing the market perfectly—it's maintaining humility, avoiding excessive leverage, and focusing on what you can control rather than spiraling over what you can't.

Episode Overview

Andrew Ross Sorkin, author of '1929' and host of CNBC's Squawk Box, discusses the timeless lessons from the 1929 stock market crash and how human nature drives boom-bust cycles. The conversation explores practical approaches to managing money anxiety, the dangers of debt and leverage, why humility beats certainty in investing, and simple mental frameworks for staying grounded during market volatility. Sorkin shares personal practices including meditation, budgeting, and the power of asking "Would it help?" when anxiety strikes.

Full Transcript

Transcript of The "Productivity Trap" That's Ruining Your Life | Andrew Ross Sorkin from 10% Happier. Auto-generated from episode audio; may contain minor errors.

I just feel like I'm on the run all the time in a way that's probably not healthy. I could be the greatest procrastinator in the world if I didn't have the timer. I would doom scroll on Instagram. My calendar says sleep on it. Literally, it's blocked out. The bad news about this whole scheme is that there's complete loss of serendipity and it's terrible. It's like truly terrible. The last 6 months I was in a super regimented place and that's not good for relationships. It's not good for anything.

It sort of settles me and it's not just afterwards. It's given me some kind of ability to also calm myself in other moments without actually doing the tea. You host a morning show, you write books, you run dealbook on the New York Times. Does this practice help you in your life? Not to mention the fact that you're you have a wife and children. Yes. Yes. Yes. Andrew Ross Sorcin, welcome to the show. Thanks for having me. It's great to see you. you. you. Like I was thinking about the first time I met you was 20 years ago uh at a party um where I was behaving poorly and you were behaving very well.

Are we supposed to say where we were or no? no? no? Yeah, we can say cuz he's been on the show too. Uh Moby um who I have Drop a name, right? Yeah, he Well, yeah, we're dropping a name and he has referenced his bad behavior and his bad behavior with me on this show. So, um I don't feel like we're not violating any any confidence. any confidence. any confidence. Yeah. I was such a fish out of water though at that party that you everyone thought I was such a square that No, I didn't even know what was going on.

Well, I thought you were a fish out of water just because you were like an a normal, healthy, welladjusted person. Um, not because you were square. Well, it depends on who you're asking. Um, in any event, um, it's nice to see you and I appreciate you making time to do this. do this. do this. There are a lot of questions that your new book raises that I think will be of interest to the audience. But before I ask you those questions, can you just describe 1929, what you were um aiming for, why you got interested in this project, and what were you what you were aiming to do?

So the history of this book is I wrote a book uh about called Too Big to Fail after the crisis in 2008. And people used to ask me all the time, you know, how that related to this thing that happened in 1929 because I think we all know that something terrible happened in 1929. The truth is I didn't really have any good answers for most people because I didn't know that much about it. And I became sort of obsessed with trying to understand that whole period of time and what that crash was like.

But more importantly, I was I don't know, I became obsessed with the people during that period. And for some reason, there have been a whole lot of great books that were written about that period, but they weren't those sort of character-driven narratives that I always loved. you know, the sort of den of thieves style, you know, barbarians at the gate in the room, tick- tock, you know, if Bob Woodward were back in 1929, what would have you seen what would have you seen inside the Oval Office?

What would you have seen inside the banker's office? Like what what were they saying to each other? And so that's the journey I've been on for the last call it 8 years to try to uncover all sorts of memos and notes and diaries and letters and all sorts of things so that you could actually feel it. So you could feel what these people felt as all this was happening. Um, and I think that when you get underneath the whole story, it sort of changes, at least changed my sense of of what of what was happening during that period, which was obviously this euphoric, you know, almost FOMOdriven period where everybody in the country desperately wanted to buy stocks.

They all were obsessed with it. Uh, people were loaning extraordinary amounts of money. That was sort of the background of all this. And there's all sorts of new fangle technology was automobiles or you know radio and people wanted to buy into that future and that sort of was super exciting but then you know got to be as you can imagine a little bit too much. So one of the points you make in the book is that you know your your insights are very much ultimately about human nature.

And so I'm going to just read something you wrote and maybe on the back end of that you can free associate. Ultimately the story of 1929 is not about rates or regulation nor about the cleverness of short sellers or the failures of bankers. It's about something far more enduring human nature. No matter how many warnings are issued or how many laws are written, people will find new ways to believe that the good times can last forever. They will dress up hope as certainty. And in that collective fever, humanity will again and again lose its head.

The enduring lesson is not that booms can be prevented or that busts can be fully averted. It is that we need to remember how easily we forget. The antidote to irrational exuberance is not regulation by itself, nor skepticism, but humility. The humility to know that no system is foolproof, no market fully rational, and no generation exempt. The greater the heights of our certainty, the longer and harder we fall. That is underneath the story of 1929, the story maybe of our life, which is, you know, I think a lot of people think about booms and busts and what we're all doing and they think, oh, if we had more regulation, would that do it?

Or is this about economic systems or cycles? Is it about Washington policy? What is it? And I think when I finished the book, I thought to myself, it's not any of those things. It's us. It's how we behave as people. It's it is that FOMO that drives us. And sometimes, by the way, drives us forward. You know, I think often times we think FOMO bad uh or speculation bad. I think there's an element which maybe there's an aspect or an element that's actually important to drive us forward.

You just don't want it to get too out of hand. hand. hand. But I do think underneath it is this idea that we all get a little too confident. We all get a little too cocky. We don't question ourselves the way we should. We're always very quick to question everybody else, but often times not ourselves. And that [clears throat] the only way to protect yourself ultimately from an economic perspective I think is is having that sense of humility and also to some degree being able to have the discipline in your own life to say okay uh I don't know if this is good I don't know if this is bad I don't you know to to be asking to be constantly curious and I think by the way those who are constantly curious constantly curious constantly curious do end up usually on the the winning side of all of this or at least the better side of all this.

Do you have any thoughts about how we can I mean just to step back for a second, one of the reasons I really wanted to have you on is that money is can be a one of the most ruthlessly efficient sources of human suffering. suffering. suffering. Um I think it can also be a source of of happiness too. But what your work reveals about how neurotic and unreasonable and self-deceiving and and greedy and all the other the other the other human frailties and foibless that can emerge around money.

It's it's really it's really important what you're what you're pointing to here and and you're pointing to humility as one corrective. How does how do we do you have any thoughts? I mean, you you're covering the ups and downs of the markets every day. How can we generate that humility in the face of these huge sloshy waves of of irrational exuberance that roll over our culture in the face of new technologies? So, I've always been struck by Warren Buffett because he's obviously had a remarkable career.

He's been an amazing investor and he's never really gotten wrapped up in the thing of the moment. the moment. the moment. Somehow he's managed to have this sort of detachment of detachment of detachment from from from the very idea of FOMO. you know, he likes to say he live he lives in Omaha in his in the home that he bought, you know, was it 50 plus years ago as a way of of almost forcing that detachment. And you know, I think money is, you said it, money is a hard topic for a lot of people.

It's hard topic for people to even talk about. I know a lot of families don't talk about money. Um, but I think one of the things so interesting about a Warren Buffett like character is he doesn't get down about missing something. You know, he says to himself, I I don't know a lot about technology, so I'm not buying Nvidia. I'm not buying He didn't buy a lot of the tech companies in the com boom. Now, he will tell you he missed stuff. He probably should have bought Amazon.

probably should have bought this stuff, but he didn't. He didn't buy into Bitcoin when everybody was telling him he had to do it. He sort of had specific principles with which he he approached all of this and said, "This is the stuff I understand. This is the stuff I don't understand." understand." understand." You know, the market is, you know, historically up 10%, oh, I'll sell then. If the market's down 10%, his view was like, I'll buy then. It wasn't an emotional decision for him. If stocks go down, he often gets talk about emotion.

He often would get excited. If if even if his own stocks are falling, he get excited because you know what he'd say? It's now on sale. I can buy it for cheaper if I actually like it. If I like it because I think it's going to be a thing for the long term. So, I just think there's And by the way, I think it's very hard to have that emotional detachment. I know personally for myself, I'm not allowed to uh buy individual stocks or things like that.

I mutual funds is sort of where the Sorcin family lives uh because of the conflict rules um that I live under as a journalist. But I can tell you and you know I never bought Bitcoin or anything like that because of these rules. But I have the FOMO all the time. And I think to myself, I by the way been protected in some ways by these rules because I think to myself, "Oh goodness, I I remember I remember meeting people when Bitcoin was, you know, like a under $1,000 a coin." And I remember thinking, "Oh, I should have I could have bought some and I should have." And I think about that all the time like everybody else does, I think.

And the question is, can you hold yourself back? And I don't know what kind of discipline that requires, but I do think it just it probably requires sort of, you know, overtly thinking about it like that. I mean, one of the pieces of advice I received early in my life as a grown-up. Um, and I'd be curious to see what you think of this cuz this is kind of straight ahead conventional wisdom, but I've lived by it. Wisely or unwisely, I don't know. You'll tell me.

Uh I don't buy individual stocks. I don't even follow the market um that closely. A little bit, but not that closely. Uh I just put my money I you know have a financial adviser and put my money in some mutual funds and uh uh try to consistently save and not think about it much. Um I think you're doing that. I think you're doing it right. And by the way, that Warren Buffett would tell you you're doing it right. That is the the the mantra. He tells his family, "Buy the S&P index.

Close your eyes, keep putting money in, and hopefully you'll wake up in 30 or 40 years from now and you'll have a have a nice nest egg." That that is a much more both economically successful approach and I'd imagine imagine imagine uh successful emotional approach because the you know the ups and downs of this. Look, I cover people and deal with people who are living this moment to moment. They're buying stocks. They're selling stocks. They're shorting stocks. They're doing It is a very hard emotional business.

I mean, that it almost is an emotional business. That's what the business is. Um I know people who can't sleep at night. You know, it's cuz they're waking up trying to figure out what's going to happen. Oh my goodness. And the responsibility that they feel for all of that. Speaking of not sleeping at night, the there is one thing about your work specifically in 1929 that makes me anxious that I would like uh to hear your thoughts on. Um, I'll I'll start with this question and I'll maybe get to the sharp end of the the pointy end of the stick in a second, but you just spent eight years marinating in uh the the the most famous stock market crash.

crash. crash. Do you think we're in a bubble now headed toward another crash? So, I do think we're in another bubble now, and I think we will invariably at some point have another crash, but I don't think that the crash has to be as deep or severe as what happened in the Great Depression. I think that one of the great misunderstandings of that period, in fact, is that somehow there was a crash in October of 1929 and all of a sudden we had a great depression.

And that it's not really true. What really happened was we had a crash and that was sort of the first domino. But there were a series of dominoes after that domino that were really policy choices mostly in Washington by the president, by Congress, by the Federal Reserve that ultimately led to the Great Depression. It wasn't pre-ordained just because we had a crash that this had to happen. And I do like to believe that we've learned a lot of lessons from that period including and I think we saw it in terms of how policy makers can react to a crash in 2008 during the pandemic in other times so that the severity of a crash or a crisis you know is not exacerbated is not is not made worse.

So yes, I think you know at some point this will happen but it doesn't have to end in 25% unemployment which is what happened in 1932. And I don't think and I'm talking against my own book cuz here we are talking about crashes. The truth is that most people who invest in the stock market, assuming that they can hold on or hold their investment and and that they haven't used borrowed money to do it, you know, 10, 20, 30 years later, they will do better in very even with the the crisises and the crashes, you know, mathed into all of that.

It it actually has paid much better to be an optimist than to be a skeptic. And here I am as a journalist. I'm, you know, I'm I'm the professional Cassandra in the room. But but but the winners have been the ones not that have sat it out because they've been worried something bad's going to happen tomorrow. The winners have been people who have been optimists actually. Okay. So this is the the followup that I was kind of teeing you up for. when I see you you you in my social media feed or when I'm reading the times um talking about the fact that we're likely in a bubble and bubbles tend to burst that produces for me a lot of anticipatory anxiety, anticipatory anxiety, anticipatory anxiety, right?

Um, and you know, I I my my fantasmagoric fantasmagoric fantasmagoric mental movie making capacity uh that we all have, you know, flashes forward to we're going to have a we're going to have a crash. Um, customers won't be able to afford uh my meditation app anymore. Um, and then I'll be in a situation where I have fewer customers and a smaller savings to fall back on. Blah blah blah. ends up with me living under a bridge, you know, just right type of that this is it runs in my veins.

Um that kind of pension for fear. Um I got the same fear by Um I got the same fear by the way. the way. the way. Yeah. Well, I mean speak so I'm now I'm digressing. digressing. digressing. Your grandfather Your grandfather Your grandfather Y Y Y uh witnessed a suicide after the crash. Yeah. um and then never bought a stock again. And again. And again. And around that same time, my great-grandfather great-grandfather great-grandfather um became a crook, lost the family fortune, fortune, fortune, put his head in the oven in the kitchen and killed himself and my grandmother found him.

found him. found him. Um and so I think for both of us that that conditioning that conditioning that conditioning y y y is still in our nervous system. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Um okay. So, having said that, I'm just curious what you what you recommend about, you know, living our lives knowing the bubble could burst at any moment. Look, I think the real thing that I've learned working on this book and and reporting on this world as long as I have now is that the danger is in debt.

which is to say if you are borrowing money to invest, borrowing money, I hate to say it just sometimes you have to borrow money to start a company. Um it's the borrowed money that is the challenge for the most part. And so if you can try to avoid having debt or a lot of debt, I think mo you can you can oftenimes sort of get through to the other side. And if you get to the other side, the world's a lot better. The people who get caught in these downdrafts are people who have decide to take on typically remarkable risk.

I don't think Dan that you've taken on remarkable risk uh in this podcast and I don't think you'll end up under a bridge. Um but I but I get it. I get the feeling and I I think that the trick I don't know if it's a trick but you know back in 1929 people were going to brokerage houses and you know they'd put down a dollar the broker would lend you $10. The good news is by the way that hardly even happens today. It been almost can't happen today really.

So that's another sort of good thing to some degree though there are people who are involved in crypto and other things where people are leveraging themselves up and doing all sorts of wildness. So I think you have just have to be careful and you just have to say to yourself if I'm you know if for some reason I would be out of work for 6 months or 12 months can I survive? survive? survive? And if I can't, you might decide I want to save some and don't want to, you know, risk whatever I have either in the stock market or in crypto or doing all sorts of other things that people do.

And by the way, the truth is most Americans don't even I mean the sad reality is here we're talking about investing and the like. You know, 60% of Americans are invested one way or the other in the stock market, but that means 40% really are not because they can't afford to be. Well, I want to ask about the the 40% and even some of the the remaining 60%. Um, when you say, you know, look, one way to protect yourself is not to take on too much debt.

I think there are a lot of people listening to this podcast who have mortgages, who have student loans, who maybe, you know, have to run up their credit card bills because things are dicey in their lives. So, you know, what what about the what about those folks? And I would include I have a mortgage myself. So So I have a mortgage too. Um I think the I think what I'm trying to say is look there are going to be times where you're going to invariably have to take on some debt in some cases depending on your own circumstances to live.

Um and so I'm not suggesting you can't have any debt. I think the question is is it quote serviceable? And so if you said to yourself, meaning can you pay the monthly payments? Um, and if for some reason something bad happens, uh, if the stock market were to go down, for example, you know, do you do you need that money? Is that cash that you need it? Are there are people who are invested in the stock market and then they sell every month and they use that money to to to live?

That to me is a little scary. Um, but by the way, like if you're a retiree, for example, example, example, and you're saying to yourself, you know what, I may need this money in five or 10 years, well then you should have a portion of it to the side. You shouldn't be necessarily fully invested. So, I think it's it's a little bit just thinking thinking about the math of your life. I mean, I'm by the way, I don't know if you do this. I I budget things.

I'm very much I I sit around. I look at all my credit card bills and say to myself, "Okay, how much can I spend next year? how much should I spend per month? Um Um Um and and you know there's certain things we're not going to do this month or that month or whatever it is. Uh we have a running joke in our family. Uh sometimes I will announce that things have gone overboard. Uh meaning there's been too much spending and I I I sort of suggest to everybody we have to have a month of austerity.

That's and uh of course everyone sort of gives me a hard time about that. But I but I also look I I I grew up in a family that values frugality. frugality. frugality. I will say that. And I don't want to say cheapness cuz there were certain things that you know I think my family we we like would splurge on a vacation. That was something that was uh important to us. But us. But us. But we would never like a car a car would just get you from one place to the other.

Like never a fancy car ever ever. And so, but there are families obviously who I think may not have the means to buy or to lease a certain car or whatever it is and they decide that that's what they want and so they go do that. I think you have to think about some of that kind of stuff. Yeah. Just to say, well, you know, my family, we do detailed budgeting too, my wife and I, and then also with my business, my CEO and I do and and our uh head of operations, we do a a lot of detailed budgeting.

I find it oddly soothing to have a real sense of how much money we have coming in, going out, and then make decisions based on reality as opposed to like a miismatic fog of unknowing and and dread. and dread. and dread. Well, so it's so interesting. So I'm exactly like you are, but then I do know people. I actually have a friend who I'm thinking about, I will not out them on your broadcast your broadcast your broadcast who really just does not want to know. Like doesn't want to know how much things cost.

doesn't want to know. I think they they they have taken on a little bit of debt. They just they prefer they it's like to me it's like I think they're living on with blinders on. on. on. They think uh that it's sort of a a much more relaxing way to live. They also sort of have a view that everything sort of comes out in the wash and everything's going to be okay. Um I'm a little bit more neurotic than that, bro. Yes, me too. Um, on the frugality thing, we have another we have a mutual friend who I'm not going to name cuz he hasn't given me permission to say this, but he has a a little email that goes out regularly that you may be on too.

And um, he used a term this friend um, recreational frugality where he he he makes it a game to see, you know, can he avoid overspending. Um, and I found that really interesting. I I think I know exactly the person you're talking about and I think I I've read that same newsletter. I um I like that. But I look I I've always for whatever reason it's like a value in our family maybe for my parents, maybe for my grandparents that you know frugality [clears throat] was there was there was something very noble about saving money um if you could avoid the loan uh if you could avoid credit.

So, but I also recognize a that I'm I feel super lucky that I that I didn't have to take on I mean, I still have a mortgage and things like that, but that I wasn't taking on extraordinary debt. Um, and you're right, there's a lot of people who've had to whether it's student loans uh or mortgages or even just credit card debt just to just to feed the family. So, it's complicated. I wish I had a better answer. Yeah, it is complicated and you and I have been both been very lucky.

Um, and I do believe that there are many things we're talking about here that can be helpful no matter what your economic circumstances are, including what I'm about to ask you. Um, so there's basic personal finance hygiene hygiene hygiene um that we've been talking about, but then there's also kind of how do you manage your mind in the face of all of this? I was asking you before um how do we not fall into you know paralytic um um anticipatory anxiety and there is a phrase that you like that I also like and in preparing for this podcast I was really excited to see that you also quote as I do very frequently this underhalded underhalded underhalded um little watched I think Tom Hanks movie that came out many years ago called Bridge of Spies.

Yes. Yes. Yes. Uh in which Tom Hanks uh plays a neurotic attorney and has a very interesting but calm client. Do you want to pick up the story from there? Oh goodness. This is a quote that I I can't believe you found this. I think about this multiple times a day. Uh, so so so in this movie, the spy in Bridge of Spies, you'd think should be more anxious, more nervous, and Tom Hanks can't understand why he is not. And he looks at him and effectively asks him, you know, why aren't you more, you know, worried?

Why are you more anxious about all this? and the spy looks back at him and says, "Would it help?" And And And I have spent, it's almost like a mantra for me, which is that anytime I get into one of these moments where I don't want to say that I'm spiraling, but where I'm I'm really sort of like going through all the permutations and maybe overdoing it and I'm I'm anxious about something that's happened or I'm trying to think through this or that and it's sort of overtaking me.

I try in the moment to step back and I literally look at I I can like see the frame of the movie and I say to myself, would it help? And by the way, sometimes it actually would help. Sometimes actually sort of thinking through the barriers, permutations of whatever you're, you know, trying to wrestle with uh can be helpful. But then often times I at least for me I realize I could turn this over in my head a 100 times and it's not going to change the outcome at all.

And so asking myself that question in this moment, would it help to to keep to keep going on this uh mental journey? You know, that's been uh I I know you're you're you're a big meditator. I don't I don't know if it's a form of meditation, but it's it's something that I, as I said, I I I do ask myself it several times a day. I have it um my desk at home uh has a little sign that says, "Would it help?" I love that so much.

And I love that moment from the movie, and I too think about it all the time. To answer your question, it it is at least a cousin of meditation because it's a mindfulness bell. It wakes you up and pulls you out of ancient neurosis and storylines, habitual thought patterns, um, spirals or something shallower than a spiral. Um, and reconnects you to your wiser uh, parts. And yeah, I have found it incredibly helpful that there there can be a an objective problem. um you you're having to run up credit card debt because you simply need it to feed the family and and you recognize that um it could have really dangerous uh consequences down the road for your financial health, your credit rating, all that stuff.

There could be an objective problem like that, right? But will being frantic, while understandable, understandable, understandable, will it actually help? It's a very clarifying question. I'm so glad you brought it up. You know, you're the second person who's ever brought this up with me. I was just thinking many years ago, I had seen it in the movie and then thought a lot about it and that's and literally had this thing made for my desk and then I was on a hike um as it happens with with with a friend of my wife's who's a psychiatrist and I was explaining that sometimes I have this neurosis, you know, sort of I can spiral and she said to me, "Have you ever seen the movie Bridge of Spies?" So, uh, there's it sounds like there's a nice little, uh, group of people who seem to be aware of this this moment in the movie.

movie. movie. You mentioned meditation. Uh, when my first book Yes. came out many years ago, you were super supportive. You brought me on, um, CNBC, not the most hospitable place to meditation, I would imagine. Um, and, uh, helped me promote the book. I remember one of your co-anchors on Squawkbox was very very skeptical, borderline hostile. I can't remember that gentleman's name. Um uh but anyway anyway, it was a very kind thing for you to do and you did it in part not only because we we're we're friendly, but also because you have an interest in meditation.

And so I'm just curious like where are you with that now? So when I saw you then, I was pretty deep on a a TM uh meditation schedule and I was pretty consistent. I would say 20 minutes twice a day. Uh and I I did and this went on for many many years and then I sort of found myself slowing down a little bit, maybe doing it once a day, you know, for 20 minutes. Uh, I find myself now sort of going in uh cycles with it and I'm probably right now off the cycle.

I I used to tell I think actually you and I used to have this conversation. If you could meditate or you could sleep or you could go to the gym, the gym, the gym, which would be more valuable? Um, I'm in the morning TV business, so sleep is sort of high on my list. I know there are some people who believe that 20 minutes of meditation is somehow more valuable than sleep. I have not gotten there yet for that. I do find now that I've been doing it for so long though that I don't need as long a period to sort of get to that place.

I don't know how to articulate it or describe it. But I feel like when I'm doing TM doing TM doing TM and I'm, you know, saying my mantra to myself that I I think in the old days it would often take of the 20 minutes, it could take 5 to 10 minutes before I'd sort of like fall into this sort of it's almost like going down into some I can't explain it. Um inside I mean you really there it's like a feeling. Um, and then over time as I was doing more and more of it, you know, within a minute or 2 minutes I could get there.

I feel like now for some reason cuz I've done it so long, I can get there pretty quickly. Um, but obviously the more I do it and even the more frequently I do it, I can get there even more quickly. So I don't know, this goes back to like an efficiency productivity situation about about getting it done. Um, yeah. So TM just for people who don't know what it is is transcendental meditation which is um essentially v an ancient form of meditation often known as vadic meditation that was um uh literally trademarked by a guy named Maharishi Mahashy Yogi who is uh was quite famous because he was the meditation teacher for the Beatles.

He's no longer with us. Um uh but TM has been around for many decades and before that Vdic meditation has been around for many millennia. Um and it's different from the type of meditation I do which is a mindfulness which is Buddhist as opposed to Vadic or Hindu. Um Hindu. Um Hindu. Um in Buddhist meditation there is really no getting there at least for you know unless unless the there you're referring to is nirvana uh which is uh very very um um um uh very rare um in TM.

Yes. I as I understand it and I'm not an expert in this practice is there is a little bit more of a a a kind of peaceful submerged place where you are transcending the everyday egoic mind. Does that track with how you understand it? it? it? Yeah, it's um you know when I was saying I I I don't know if people people who are listening won't be able to see my hand. It's sort of like a motion. You sort of get to this this place that's sort of like down under a little bit.

I doubt I'm sure people think I'm a quack saying this. saying this. saying this. Not this audience, bro. I mean, this is this audience is very primed. It's almost a combination of where your your brain stops thinking to some degree. Not always completely, but of all of the sort of things that are happening uh around you or what you have to do next or what you sort of somehow you're able to transcend that I I think to some degree. And I find for me, not that it's it's almost physical.

Um, I don't know if you this I'm going to really I don't know if I'm embarrassing myself saying this. Sometimes if you keep close your eyes and when there's light in the room, you sort of see this sort of black orange or something at least to me. I don't know why that is. Uh, but I've always found that somehow once I've quote unquote transcended or whatever, hopefully a couple minutes into this, it really is almost a blackness for some period of time. And there's like a stillness.

And by the way, sometimes it still just doesn't last and sometimes it's a busy day and you're all you know you walk you come into it sort of in the would it help mode because there's a lot of things happening it doesn't work or it doesn't you know so I don't want to say to everyone that's you know it's the thing to do. It's it's worked for me but it is a it did take a a a lot of commitment early on and I'm sure I'm probably not doing it right now.

I'm in terms of the commitment, I'm sure people who are are true practitioners would would say Andrew is uh is is skipping out here. Well, I can't I can't I can't judge uh I what I can say in ter I can't judge your TM practice because it's not a practice that I understand perfectly at all. Um I can say that you're definitely not embarrassing yourself. Uh it I really love the way you described it. Um, and I think uh just in ter back to your TM practice, Bob Roth is probably the best known current teacher in this practice who's been on the show.

That's how I learned. Okay. So Bob, who's a very likable guy, I think one of his common expressions is even when you even in a shallow dive, you still get wet, right? So you can have a bumpy a seemingly bumpy TM session and um you're still deriving benefit. And so I guess that kind of leads me to my question for you which is do you notice benefit in your life? You are ex you are extraordinarily busy. You host a morning show. You run Dealbook on the New York Times.

Uh so you're writing all day. Uh you write books. Um, once a year you do the Dealbook Conference, which as we're recording has just wrapped up, um, which makes a ton of news every year. So, you just you have a I'm sure you do speaking gigs. You just have a lot of [ __ ] going on. And I'm wondering, does this practice help you in your life? Not to mention the fact that you're you have a wife and children. So, I think it I think I'm still doing it because it does.

There's it sort of settles me in a way. And it's not just it settles me like afterwards like afterwards like afterwards in that, you know, five or 10 minute period, which I think it does, but I think that it's given me some kind of, it's not a superpower, but some kind of ability to also calm myself in other moments without actually doing the TM. M. M. M. So sometimes if I actually have to go on a stage and speak and I'm a little anxious or nervous and I'm sort of sitting backstage for that one minute when I'm by myself, I'm not doing TM, but I can sort of get to this place and I think I can I think I'm I that place is now familiar to me because of TM.

And so sort of a combination of breathing and just sort of trying to think that that it's it's for me super helpful. I mean, I just feel like I'm on the run all the time in a way that's probably not healthy. And so this is one thing I do that I think helps with that to some extent. I'm probably I could be so much better, I'm sure, if I did a hundred other things, but uh this is just one of them. Let's let's talk a little bit about your productivity routines and how you run your day.

I mean, you are I for me and I think for many other people really aspirational figure not only because of your the success you've achieved um but your impact on culture. Um and this requires as you just said like kind of on the run all day. Um I'd be curious to hear a little bit more about how you get it all done. I I've read thanks to the excellent prep that was prepared for me by um um Eleanor um our producer um I've read that you don't keep to-do lists.

So, how do you get it done if you don't keep to-do lists? Well, let me say one thing which is I'm involved in a lot of things, but I also have a lot of help in in everything I do. I have either partners or uh colleagues or whatever and I I have to give them credit. when you read dealbook every morning I am actively writing and part of that but I also have you know a group of people who work on that with me every day similarly at squawkbox there's a team uh I had a researcher uh when I was working on on the books I do try to I couldn't couldn't get all this done if I didn't have some some help but when it comes to to-do lists or just like actually how I do it I have to put everything on a calendar.

Um, literally. So, if I was going to call you, Dan, tomorrow at 9:00 a.m. to make I might even write like this would happen actually after this thing after our podcast today. I might make a note to myself myself myself to if if I didn't send you a text message to say, "Hey, thanks." or whatever. But if I wanted to call you, I might actually write 9:00 a.m. to 9:15, call Dan Harris tomorrow morning. Now, I haven't scheduled a meeting with you, but it's on my calendar.

I know it's going to take 15 minutes. Now, if at 9:00 you don't pick up your phone, which might happen, I will then move that just down the day to some other time, but I have 15 minutes if I have 15 minutes uh to do it. But I'm I I think they call it time blocking, but I'm constantly putting everything on the calendar because everything I know takes time. And if I don't put it down that way, it either doesn't get done or I haven't really estimated properly sort of how much I can actually do.

I think often times, at least for me, I if I don't have it on the calendar, I overestimate what's possible. what's possible. what's possible. Meaning, I think to myself, oh, I can do a 100 things today. And then I only get two or three things done invariably. And so, I'm I sort of I use timers, by the way. I'm big on timers. So, if I have to write something, write something, write something, I I'm the I could be the greatest procrastinator in the world if I didn't have the timer.

I would go off and, you know, run around the internet and look up things and doom scroll on Instagram and all of those things. I have Oh, I I have um blockers on all of my all of the apps, you know, that sort of force you to override them, which I do, unfortunately, too, cuz it's a little too easy to override them. There are some apps you can get which I've used that you can't override or they make it super hard to override. But that's that's sort of how I do it.

So if I if I know that I have to write something for tomorrow's dealbook, I might say I have an hour, I have to do it in the hour. I have to make it work in the hour or 45 minutes or two hours or whatever it is. Um and similarly, I don't know what my colleagues think. I'm always trying to make meetings shorter shorter shorter because I know that there's a lot of wasted time. Now, the bad news about this whole scheme and system that I'm running is that there's complete loss of serendipity and it's terrible.

It's like truly terrible. I can get a lot done and I can be very productive and that's true, but I often feel that I'm missing the spark of something else of of just kibbitzing in the corner about whatever. I just I often times go through periods where I'm just not doing that. Um, at the moment I'm now that the book is finished, I'm I have a little bit more time to to kibbit and procrastinate and doom scroll and all that, but I I was sort of almost like overly disciplined, you know, not the best way.

By the way, my calendar says sleep on it. Literally, it's blocked out. And are you able to when the when you get a calendar reminder that says sleep, are you able to like tear yourself away from whatever you're doing and put yourself to bed? I mean, for the most part, yes. But I I again, I don't know if I'm supposed to admit this or not. I um during the weekday, because I have to try to go to sleep at a decent hour, I I take usually one to three milligrams of melatonin.

I know that's not like a super severe drug or anything, but I, you know, that's like without it, I I would stay up till midnight and then I'd be be be a mess the next day cuz I' I'm sort of, even though I sensibly should be a morning person, I host a morning TV show. Left to my own devices, I would probably be more like a college kid and stay up till 1 or 2 in the morning and sleep as late as possible. on the serendipity thing.

You know, I got myself in a little bit of trouble trouble trouble maybe 8 10 years ago where I was super optimizer guy. You know, I at that time I was hosting two broadcasts on ABC News, plus a podcast, plus a meditation app, plus speaking gigs, plus writing books, plus I had a kid, plus I have a wife, all just on and plus, plus plus. And um I was so regimented and I was also you know at a very I committed to do lots of meditation every day that you know I was working in in an office ABC and also had an office for the meditation app and I cut the serendipity out of my life so thoroughly that it really hurt my relationships.

So I agree with you and I I actually work I'm now actually in this moment sort of working on that a little bit because I know that there was I'd say the last 6 months I was in a super regimented place. Uh and so but I try to do it like in cycles. I don't know if that works because I am in this sort of like super product trying to be super productive. So I sort of go through these cycles where I sort of am like super heads down and that's not good for relationships.

It's not good for anything except maybe getting all this stuff done. But then on on the end of it, on either end of it, I then feel like I then do the opposite. I almost like try to like overinvest in the relationships relationships relationships hoping that I then get dispensation when I go back in my hole. You know what that I don't for personally I don't think there's any such thing as overinvesting in relationships and I've come to believe that. And I and maybe this is just the vestigial optim optimizer in me, but um I can imagine that doing the overinvesting or just investing in the relationships will get you dispensation for when you have to go back in the hole.

for the most part I feel like it I've had that to I mean that that's this has worked for me but I'm also you know I always want to do better and I'm I'm I am aware that you know it's terrible to go through these periods at least in my mind you know people people you love people you care about will ask you to go to lunch or dinner whatever do something and you know for a period of time I remember especially when I was trying to finish this book I was you know constantly writing back I'm so sorry.

I wish I could. I'm kneede in this project or I'm kneede in this book. I just I'm just unable. And it just it was like, you know, I hate saying no. I hate I hate that feeling. I don't know if you hate that feeling. I um um um and I think people when I do think when you tell somebody you're like kneede in something, they're like, "Oh, okay. I get it." But I also think it's, you know, I I wish you I wish I wasn't in that place sometimes.

Well, you actually just brought me where I was hoping, one place I was hoping to go as we uh as we head toward the final minutes of our time together. Um, in the aforementioned excellent uh prep provided to me by um the aforementioned excellent Eleanor Vasili, who's the producer of this episode, she pointed out that one of your productivity moves is the polite no. And now this is not necessarily for social things or uh you know things that may come up for with people you love but people when you're in a position as you are and I think this is true for for many of us even if we're not Andrew Russin we're being asked to do things that are actually not core to our priorities.

Um and so you've learned to issue a polite no. Worth saying a little bit more about that. Uh yeah. So um I actually have stolen a line. Uh the line is from Vince Gilligan who uh who wrote Breaking Bad. Um I had sent him I know him and we're friends and I had sent him an email about something once and he wrote back within about two seconds. I hope a quick no is almost as good as a yes. And it was. That's good. It was almost as good as a yes.

yes. yes. And so what I have learned is if the answer is going to be no or if it isn't something that I can prioritize to get back to people like immediately. The no that hurts the other person and the no that hurts you because at least for me it snowballs in my head. Can I make it work? Oh, I haven't told them no. Now they probably think I'm trying. I'm really think if you can quickly come back and say this isn't I just can't do it the dates don't work or the thing and not even explanation always u I think often times we feel when we're saying no to people we have to have an explanation to say oh we're doing something with our family or we're over here we're blah blah blah I just think if you can quickly return the email or the text or or call them back and say I wish I could do it but I can't that's fine I think to me The thing that kills people and kills yourself is sort of the spiraling on it.

That may be your own problem. It might be the person who's waiting on you to say yes or no. And when you let that drag out, that's just like the worst. So, I always had to end the the show with two questions. Uh, one is, um, was there something you were hoping that we would get to that we haven't or anything else on your mind that you were hoping to express? You know, I've I feel like I've watched your journey over the years and I've always been impressed by actually how much you've been willing to share with people about your own story.

By the way, this is not something that I I came on the show to to talk about, but I I wanted to actually talk to you if I could just about where the I don't know if it's courage, maybe it's courage uh to sort of share certain things with people about yourself. I mean, I feel like I've shared a little bit about myself, but I never know how much you're supposed to share. um you know is there a a moment where something that could not that it becomes embarrassing I guess I used even that word earlier but um you know especially when you're in the news business or you're in the sort of public facing you know I don't think of myself it's it's sort of crazy to think of yourself as like a public figure or whatever and I think people think that you're supposed to share and people want to know you but then you are you supposed to anyway I think I I don't I'm so curious how you've always thought about that I appreciate you asking it.

Um, and I did notice a couple times when you were revealing like really benign things, you hesitated like melatonin is is not Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. It's a weird thing cuz I I think that I I um you know, as a journalist, I don't know if you felt this way. this way. this way. Uh I I feel like we're we're supposed to almost be like detached from detached. So detached uh and so sort of straight that and by the way that might just be look I grew up I started the New York Times at 18 years old and so it's sort of like um no and and maybe it's a mental problem that I have but I I that's why I've I've as I say I've admired you and and how you've done this for so long.

Well, I appreciate that. And you know, you and I came up in the same system. I you know, was you you started the Times as a as an intern and at 18 and then very quickly started writing for them even as you were in college. And um I I started a little bit later in television news at 21. Um but we we've come up through the system where the ethos very much is you're not the story. Um I think that's outmoded to a certain extent. You don't want to I think it there's there it's a fine line to walk.

You don't want to be inserting yourself into every story and we are in an era where people are much more open and honest and confessional and even at the New York Times like Ezra Klein has come on the show a couple times and you know really will talk about aspects of his life in ways that I think are are really effective and here's how I think about where how to draw the line. is what you're revealing useful to the audience? Um, and and there there's a broad there's a lot of range in there and a lot of ways to interpret useful.

Um, but when I so when I wrote my first book in 2014, I was freaking out about talking about my cocaine habits um, and how it led to a panic attack and all of that stuff. It was not actually that that was early for that kind of um disclosure. What I learned in the aftermath is nobody really gave a [ __ ] They really just cared about whether I had something useful for them, which in this case I did because I was only telling the cocaine stories because it led me to meditation, which is useful for you.

And so for you, given the importance of sleep for all of us, I think mentioning melatonin is is go even further. Yeah, I would go even further like that the that you we didn't talk about it much in this conversation, but you have talked about your grandfather and his witnessing of a suicide like that is the these are useful nuggets. If you're oversharing and again it's this is more art than science, but if you're just turning everything back to yourself and not listening to other people and um uh serving up personal information that is of no real value, then yes, that's a problem.

But I do think disclosure, especially from people who are, whether you like it or not, public figures, is super helpful because it normalizes things that many of us feel shame about. Thank you. See, I got now I got my question answered. question answered. question answered. Okay, let me ask my final question, which is not not much of a question, is more of a request. Can you please just remind everybody of the name of your book, the new one, any prior books, um, uh, your show on CNBC, your work on the New York Times.

Can you just plug everything you do just so Oh, goodness. I love this question. This is a great question. Uh, so the new book is called 1929. Um, it's out now. Uh, I wrote a book called Too Big to Fail. It's also, uh, still available. It was written back in 2009. 2009. 2009. I I I host a show on CNBC called Squawkbox. It's from 6:00 to 9 in the morning. Uh I pop on with my good friends on Morning Joe on MSNBC typically between 9:00 and 10 in the morning.

And I started something called Dealbook at the New York Times, which is a newsletter uh about the intersection of business and policy. You can get it for free. You can Google that online. just typing uh dealbook or you can go to ny times.com/debook times.com/debook times.com/debook and we do a summit uh that you can see on YouTube right now if you search for that and we do it live at Lincoln Center every year uh in November. Dear listener, we will put links to all of those in the show notes.

Uh uh dear you Andrew Ross Orin, uh thank you very much for doing this. Um, I'm very proud of the fact that we're going to get you out on time so that your calendar uh will not be violated. Thank you so much. This is a lot of fun.