The Painful Psychological Cost Of Becoming A Dad - Darby Saxbe

I'm sorry it's taken so long, but merch I'm sorry it's taken so long, but merch is nearly here. This Friday, the 31st of is nearly here. This Friday, the 31st of is nearly here. This Friday, the 31st of July at 12:00 midday Central Time or July at 12:00 midday Central Time or July at 12:00 midday Central Time or 6:00 p.m. UK time, 6:00 p.m. UK time, 6:00 p.m. UK time, the brand new Modern Wisdom merch goes the brand new Modern Wisdom merch goes the brand new Modern Wisdom merch goes live. Head to mwmerch.com now to sign live. Head to mwmerch.com now to sign live. Head to mwmerch.com now to sign up. You'll get first access, and once up. You'll get first access, and once up. You'll get first access, and once this is sold out, it's gone. Never to be this is sold out, it's gone. Never to be this is sold out, it's gone. Never to be printed again. You've only got 6 days to printed again. You've only got 6 days to printed again. You've only got 6 days to be able to buy. So, head to mwmerch.com be able to buy. So, head to mwmerch.com be able to buy. So, head to mwmerch.com now. Most people are familiar with mom now. Most people are familiar with mom now. Most people are familiar with mom brain, brain, brain, but you found that dad's brains go but you found that dad's brains go but you found that dad's brains go through a bunch of changes, too. through a bunch of changes, too. through a bunch of changes, too. >> Exactly. Yeah, so I've been looking at >> Exactly. Yeah, so I've been looking at >> Exactly. Yeah, so I've been looking at new fathers in my lab over the last new fathers in my lab over the last new fathers in my lab over the last decade plus. We've scanned men when decade plus. We've scanned men when decade plus. We've scanned men when they're midway through their partner's they're midway through their partner's they're midway through their partner's pregnancy, and then again after they pregnancy, and then again after they pregnancy, and then again after they have their first child. And we find that have their first child. And we find that have their first child. And we find that the brain, and I should caveat, this is the brain, and I should caveat, this is the brain, and I should caveat, this is not a bad thing, loses gray matter not a bad thing, loses gray matter not a bad thing, loses gray matter volume across that transition to volume across that transition to volume across that transition to fatherhood. So, the patterns look fatherhood. So, the patterns look fatherhood. So, the patterns look similar to those that have been observed similar to those that have been observed similar to those that have been observed in moms, and they seem to be of smaller in moms, and they seem to be of smaller in moms, and they seem to be of smaller magnitude, they're more variable, and magnitude, they're more variable, and magnitude, they're more variable, and they're more tied to dad's parenting they're more tied to dad's parenting they're more tied to dad's parenting experience. experience. experience. >> Mhm. How does it differ from mom brain? >> Mhm. How does it differ from mom brain? >> Mhm. How does it differ from mom brain? What are the biggest differences? What are the biggest differences? What are the biggest differences? >> So, new moms lose about 2.5% of their >> So, new moms lose about 2.5% of their >> So, new moms lose about 2.5% of their gray matter volume across the transition gray matter volume across the transition gray matter volume across the transition into first-time motherhood, into first-time motherhood, into first-time motherhood, >> Mhm. >> Mhm. >> Mhm. >> and they lose volume in parts of the >> and they lose volume in parts of the >> and they lose volume in parts of the brain that are really linked to brain that are really linked to brain that are really linked to hormones. So, that includes not just the hormones. So, that includes not just the hormones. So, that includes not just the cortex, which if you think about sort of cortex, which if you think about sort of cortex, which if you think about sort of the outer layer of brain tissue that the outer layer of brain tissue that the outer layer of brain tissue that does a lot of our higher-order thinking does a lot of our higher-order thinking does a lot of our higher-order thinking and reasoning, it also includes what's and reasoning, it also includes what's and reasoning, it also includes what's called the subcortex, which contains our called the subcortex, which contains our called the subcortex, which contains our amygdala, our ventral striatum, which amygdala, our ventral striatum, which amygdala, our ventral striatum, which processes reward, and a number of other processes reward, and a number of other processes reward, and a number of other structures that are linked with drive structures that are linked with drive structures that are linked with drive and gut feelings. and gut feelings. and gut feelings. Dads change mostly just in the cortex, Dads change mostly just in the cortex, Dads change mostly just in the cortex, which is that sort of executive which is that sort of executive which is that sort of executive functioning, thinking, and reasoning functioning, thinking, and reasoning functioning, thinking, and reasoning part of the brain. Moms show profound part of the brain. Moms show profound part of the brain. Moms show profound changes across the whole brain. changes across the whole brain. changes across the whole brain. >> Mhm. >> Mhm. >> Mhm. >> And dads' changes are, like I said, >> And dads' changes are, like I said, >> And dads' changes are, like I said, smaller in magnitude, so dads lose about smaller in magnitude, so dads lose about smaller in magnitude, so dads lose about >> 1% of their gray matter volume. And my >> 1% of their gray matter volume. And my >> 1% of their gray matter volume. And my lab found that this was totally tied to lab found that this was totally tied to lab found that this was totally tied to dad's parenting time and investment. So dad's parenting time and investment. So dad's parenting time and investment. So dads who felt more bonded with their dads who felt more bonded with their dads who felt more bonded with their babies before birth, they were more babies before birth, they were more babies before birth, they were more motivated to take time off after birth, motivated to take time off after birth, motivated to take time off after birth, they spent more day-to-day time with they spent more day-to-day time with they spent more day-to-day time with kids in the first few months, and they kids in the first few months, and they kids in the first few months, and they reported feeling more bonded and having reported feeling more bonded and having reported feeling more bonded and having more pleasure in interacting with their more pleasure in interacting with their more pleasure in interacting with their kids. Those dads showed the biggest kids. Those dads showed the biggest kids. Those dads showed the biggest brain change. brain change. brain change. >> How would you categorize the change in >> How would you categorize the change in >> How would you categorize the change in fatherhood over the last few fatherhood over the last few fatherhood over the last few generations? generations? generations? >> There's been a dramatic change. So, >> There's been a dramatic change. So, >> There's been a dramatic change. So, by some estimates, dad's daily time in by some estimates, dad's daily time in by some estimates, dad's daily time in parenting has tripled or even quadrupled parenting has tripled or even quadrupled parenting has tripled or even quadrupled compared to the Father Knows Best dads compared to the Father Knows Best dads compared to the Father Knows Best dads of the '50s and '60s. So, there's been a of the '50s and '60s. So, there's been a of the '50s and '60s. So, there's been a huge uptick. And what's interesting is huge uptick. And what's interesting is huge uptick. And what's interesting is that there was an inflection point that there was an inflection point that there was an inflection point around the pandemic, where men who might around the pandemic, where men who might around the pandemic, where men who might have been commuting to an office and have been commuting to an office and have been commuting to an office and maybe missing a lot of the day-to-day maybe missing a lot of the day-to-day maybe missing a lot of the day-to-day stuff with their kids, suddenly had the stuff with their kids, suddenly had the stuff with their kids, suddenly had the experience of experience of experience of being hands-on parents in a different being hands-on parents in a different being hands-on parents in a different way. way. way. And a lot of people wondered whether And a lot of people wondered whether And a lot of people wondered whether that uptick would persist, and it has. that uptick would persist, and it has. that uptick would persist, and it has. So, millennial dads are spending more So, millennial dads are spending more So, millennial dads are spending more time with kids than any other generation time with kids than any other generation time with kids than any other generation of US dads. And there's evidence that of US dads. And there's evidence that of US dads. And there's evidence that Gen Z dads are spending even more time Gen Z dads are spending even more time Gen Z dads are spending even more time than millennial dads. So, there's been a than millennial dads. So, there's been a than millennial dads. So, there's been a pretty dramatic shift. pretty dramatic shift. pretty dramatic shift. >> How does modern fathering differ from >> How does modern fathering differ from >> How does modern fathering differ from hunter-gatherer societies? hunter-gatherer societies? hunter-gatherer societies? >> So, it's interesting. So, in my book, I >> So, it's interesting. So, in my book, I >> So, it's interesting. So, in my book, I talk about the a model of talk about the a model of talk about the a model of hunter-gatherer fatherhood, the Aka, hunter-gatherer fatherhood, the Aka, hunter-gatherer fatherhood, the Aka, which is a society in the Congo, where which is a society in the Congo, where which is a society in the Congo, where men spend a lot of time within hands' men spend a lot of time within hands' men spend a lot of time within hands' reach of infants, and they're very reach of infants, and they're very reach of infants, and they're very involved in infant care. And what's involved in infant care. And what's involved in infant care. And what's unique about the Aka, unique about the Aka, unique about the Aka, and this quality is shared by a number and this quality is shared by a number and this quality is shared by a number of other hunter-gatherer societies, is of other hunter-gatherer societies, is of other hunter-gatherer societies, is that they have a very egalitarian, flat that they have a very egalitarian, flat that they have a very egalitarian, flat social structure, and there's a lot of social structure, and there's a lot of social structure, and there's a lot of cooperative resource gathering. So, we cooperative resource gathering. So, we cooperative resource gathering. So, we know hunter-gatherer societies are the know hunter-gatherer societies are the know hunter-gatherer societies are the context in which we spent 95% of our context in which we spent 95% of our context in which we spent 95% of our human history. So, they tell us human history. So, they tell us human history. So, they tell us something about the environments something about the environments something about the environments within which we adopted, within which we within which we adopted, within which we within which we adopted, within which we evolved. And evolved. And evolved. And we know that women contributed a ton of we know that women contributed a ton of we know that women contributed a ton of calories. So, when people say it's calories. So, when people say it's calories. So, when people say it's unnatural for women to work, in fact, unnatural for women to work, in fact, unnatural for women to work, in fact, women have been economically productive women have been economically productive women have been economically productive for most of our human history. But in for most of our human history. But in for most of our human history. But in the Aka, the main form of resource the Aka, the main form of resource the Aka, the main form of resource gathering is joint cooperative net gathering is joint cooperative net gathering is joint cooperative net hunting. So, couples work together to hunting. So, couples work together to hunting. So, couples work together to gain resources for the society. And as a gain resources for the society. And as a gain resources for the society. And as a result, really differentiated, result, really differentiated, result, really differentiated, specialized parenting roles don't make specialized parenting roles don't make specialized parenting roles don't make very much sense, right? They would not very much sense, right? They would not very much sense, right? They would not be economically adaptive. But you see be economically adaptive. But you see be economically adaptive. But you see other models, even within Africa. I talk other models, even within Africa. I talk other models, even within Africa. I talk about another society, the Kipsigis, about another society, the Kipsigis, about another society, the Kipsigis, which is a day's drive away, where there which is a day's drive away, where there which is a day's drive away, where there are strict prohibitions against men are strict prohibitions against men are strict prohibitions against men picking babies up in the first year picking babies up in the first year picking babies up in the first year after birth. after birth. after birth. >> No way. >> No way. >> No way. >> So, you'd never see a man carrying a >> So, you'd never see a man carrying a >> So, you'd never see a man carrying a baby outside his own home. They're not baby outside his own home. They're not baby outside his own home. They're not supposed to share a sleeping surface supposed to share a sleeping surface supposed to share a sleeping surface with babies because it's considered that with babies because it's considered that with babies because it's considered that the the manliness of the father will the the manliness of the father will the the manliness of the father will disrupt the infant's rearing and that disrupt the infant's rearing and that disrupt the infant's rearing and that the infant will compromise the father's the infant will compromise the father's the infant will compromise the father's masculinity. masculinity. masculinity. So, and this is something I talk about a So, and this is something I talk about a So, and this is something I talk about a lot in my book. There's so much societal lot in my book. There's so much societal lot in my book. There's so much societal and cultural variability around and cultural variability around and cultural variability around fatherhood. fatherhood. fatherhood. >> What is the >> What is the >> What is the resource gathering process of the second resource gathering process of the second resource gathering process of the second tribe? tribe? tribe? >> Yeah, so it's very different. It's much >> Yeah, so it's very different. It's much >> Yeah, so it's very different. It's much more risky, it's more hazardous, it's uh more risky, it's more hazardous, it's uh more risky, it's more hazardous, it's uh slash and burn forest forestry. slash and burn forest forestry. slash and burn forest forestry. And so, it makes sense, just as in the And so, it makes sense, just as in the And so, it makes sense, just as in the Aka, it makes sense not to specialize Aka, it makes sense not to specialize Aka, it makes sense not to specialize too strictly, it makes sense in the too strictly, it makes sense in the too strictly, it makes sense in the Kipsigis that dads are going to do most Kipsigis that dads are going to do most Kipsigis that dads are going to do most of the economic work and moms are going of the economic work and moms are going of the economic work and moms are going to do most of the caretaking. And to be to do most of the caretaking. And to be to do most of the caretaking. And to be clear, dads are very involved with older clear, dads are very involved with older clear, dads are very involved with older kids. They'll teach them how to hunt. kids. They'll teach them how to hunt. kids. They'll teach them how to hunt. They'll teach them how to provision, but They'll teach them how to provision, but They'll teach them how to provision, but they are not picking babies up. they are not picking babies up. they are not picking babies up. >> Do you see parallels between a modern >> Do you see parallels between a modern >> Do you see parallels between a modern society with more egalitarian access to society with more egalitarian access to society with more egalitarian access to work, more female breadwinners, and the work, more female breadwinners, and the work, more female breadwinners, and the Aka? Aka? Aka? >> Yeah, I think there's some key >> Yeah, I think there's some key >> Yeah, I think there's some key distinctions, but there there's more of distinctions, but there there's more of distinctions, but there there's more of a through-line, I think, between that a through-line, I think, between that a through-line, I think, between that model of social organization and model of social organization and model of social organization and contemporary societies. contemporary societies. contemporary societies. >> Mhm. >> Mhm. >> Mhm. >> Right? Because we have women in the >> Right? Because we have women in the >> Right? Because we have women in the workforce and our jobs no longer require workforce and our jobs no longer require workforce and our jobs no longer require upper body strength or high risk upper body strength or high risk upper body strength or high risk tolerance, for the most part. Right? So, tolerance, for the most part. Right? So, tolerance, for the most part. Right? So, women have the opportunity to earn women have the opportunity to earn women have the opportunity to earn income. And, you know, like I said, most income. And, you know, like I said, most income. And, you know, like I said, most of human history we were either of human history we were either of human history we were either hunter-gatherers or small family hunter-gatherers or small family hunter-gatherers or small family farmers. So, women were contributing to farmers. So, women were contributing to farmers. So, women were contributing to economic productivity even within those economic productivity even within those economic productivity even within those models, but agricultural society has models, but agricultural society has models, but agricultural society has different conditions and generally different conditions and generally different conditions and generally demands more specialization. There's demands more specialization. There's demands more specialization. There's more stability that allows you to more stability that allows you to more stability that allows you to accumulate and store wealth. You need accumulate and store wealth. You need accumulate and store wealth. You need armies to guard your wealth. And you end armies to guard your wealth. And you end armies to guard your wealth. And you end up with a less flexible and less up with a less flexible and less up with a less flexible and less egalitarian social structure. So, gender egalitarian social structure. So, gender egalitarian social structure. So, gender roles get a little more entrenched. I roles get a little more entrenched. I roles get a little more entrenched. I think what's interesting about think what's interesting about think what's interesting about contemporary society is that we are in contemporary society is that we are in contemporary society is that we are in flux between these different models flux between these different models flux between these different models of what we expect from men and women. of what we expect from men and women. of what we expect from men and women. And and men and women are changing at And and men and women are changing at And and men and women are changing at different rates. different rates. different rates. >> Yeah. Yeah, well, it makes sense that >> Yeah. Yeah, well, it makes sense that >> Yeah. Yeah, well, it makes sense that we'd need to be adaptable. So, we'd need to be adaptable. So, we'd need to be adaptable. So, I'm interested in the fact that you you I'm interested in the fact that you you I'm interested in the fact that you you choose to do the first scan of the choose to do the first scan of the choose to do the first scan of the father's brain halfway through father's brain halfway through father's brain halfway through pregnancy. pregnancy. pregnancy. Is there any reason to not Is there any Is there any reason to not Is there any Is there any reason to not Is there any concern that by doing it partway through concern that by doing it partway through concern that by doing it partway through pregnancy that some changes may have pregnancy that some changes may have pregnancy that some changes may have happened already? Would a baseline be happened already? Would a baseline be happened already? Would a baseline be better? I guess better? I guess better? I guess you're trying to get pregnant. You've you're trying to get pregnant. You've you're trying to get pregnant. You've then decided to basically bet your study then decided to basically bet your study then decided to basically bet your study on a bunch of people who aren't yet on a bunch of people who aren't yet on a bunch of people who aren't yet parents, but like, we promise we're parents, but like, we promise we're parents, but like, we promise we're really trying hard. really trying hard. really trying hard. >> Yeah, I think if we'd had more time and >> Yeah, I think if we'd had more time and >> Yeah, I think if we'd had more time and more funding, we probably would have more funding, we probably would have more funding, we probably would have done a preconception scan. done a preconception scan. done a preconception scan. >> Yep. >> Yep. >> Yep. >> And so there's a really good study that >> And so there's a really good study that >> And so there's a really good study that came out when I was halfway through data came out when I was halfway through data came out when I was halfway through data collection for my dad's study. It collection for my dad's study. It collection for my dad's study. It focuses on mothers, and they were focuses on mothers, and they were focuses on mothers, and they were recruited from a fertility clinic. So recruited from a fertility clinic. So recruited from a fertility clinic. So they were trying to get pregnant. About they were trying to get pregnant. About they were trying to get pregnant. About half of the mothers did, and about half half of the mothers did, and about half half of the mothers did, and about half of the mothers, or rather about half of of the mothers, or rather about half of of the mothers, or rather about half of the women remained non-mothers. And they the women remained non-mothers. And they the women remained non-mothers. And they found that the brain changed even during found that the brain changed even during found that the brain changed even during pregnancy. So we didn't have the pregnancy. So we didn't have the pregnancy. So we didn't have the opportunity to do that because I was opportunity to do that because I was opportunity to do that because I was recruiting couples who were already recruiting couples who were already recruiting couples who were already willing to come into the lab willing to come into the lab willing to come into the lab >> Yep. >> Yep. >> Yep. >> pregnant, and I wanted mothers and >> pregnant, and I wanted mothers and >> pregnant, and I wanted mothers and fathers to participate together. But I fathers to participate together. But I fathers to participate together. But I think we might have seen some different think we might have seen some different think we might have seen some different patterns if we'd started the study patterns if we'd started the study patterns if we'd started the study earlier. earlier. earlier. >> What happens with fathers-to-be when >> What happens with fathers-to-be when >> What happens with fathers-to-be when their partners are pregnant? their partners are pregnant? their partners are pregnant? >> A lot. So we see hormone changes, we see >> A lot. So we see hormone changes, we see >> A lot. So we see hormone changes, we see new emotional worries and concerns, we new emotional worries and concerns, we new emotional worries and concerns, we see couple relationship changes, we see see couple relationship changes, we see see couple relationship changes, we see even sleep disruption that starts early even sleep disruption that starts early even sleep disruption that starts early before the baby's born. And we don't before the baby's born. And we don't before the baby's born. And we don't know exactly the time course of brain know exactly the time course of brain know exactly the time course of brain remodeling because like I said, my scan remodeling because like I said, my scan remodeling because like I said, my scan study started in mid-pregnancy. We don't study started in mid-pregnancy. We don't study started in mid-pregnancy. We don't have other sources of information for have other sources of information for have other sources of information for the most part. And so we're making our the most part. And so we're making our the most part. And so we're making our best guess. My hunch is that what is best guess. My hunch is that what is best guess. My hunch is that what is reorganizing the brain more than reorganizing the brain more than reorganizing the brain more than anything else is parenting experience anything else is parenting experience anything else is parenting experience and the way in which that challenges the and the way in which that challenges the and the way in which that challenges the brain and the social demands that it brain and the social demands that it brain and the social demands that it places on the brain. So my guess is that places on the brain. So my guess is that places on the brain. So my guess is that when we're looking at fathers, we're when we're looking at fathers, we're when we're looking at fathers, we're going to see most of the change going to see most of the change going to see most of the change happening after birth, but we don't know happening after birth, but we don't know happening after birth, but we don't know that for sure. We need to replicate that for sure. We need to replicate that for sure. We need to replicate these studies and extend them. these studies and extend them. these studies and extend them. >> Right. Am Am I right in saying that >> Right. Am Am I right in saying that >> Right. Am Am I right in saying that there's research that shows how the there's research that shows how the there's research that shows how the relationship manages conflict impacts relationship manages conflict impacts relationship manages conflict impacts how painful the childbirth is? how painful the childbirth is? how painful the childbirth is? >> Yes, my lab did that study. Yeah, so we >> Yes, my lab did that study. Yeah, so we >> Yes, my lab did that study. Yeah, so we brought Is Is that stressing you out? brought Is Is that stressing you out? brought Is Is that stressing you out? >> It's just It's It's kind of tenuous, >> It's just It's It's kind of tenuous, >> It's just It's It's kind of tenuous, right? Like you've just explained that right? Like you've just explained that right? Like you've just explained that relationship stress happens, sleep relationship stress happens, sleep relationship stress happens, sleep disruption happens, and it disruption happens, and it disruption happens, and it that feels like quite a high that feels like quite a high that feels like quite a high bar. That's a That's a bar. That's a That's a bar. That's a That's a big impact of pre-child big impact of pre-child big impact of pre-child uh uh uh like regulation. like regulation. like regulation. >> Yeah. Yeah, I mean, I think the bottom >> Yeah. Yeah, I mean, I think the bottom >> Yeah. Yeah, I mean, I think the bottom line is that kids are resilient. Humans line is that kids are resilient. Humans line is that kids are resilient. Humans are resilient. We have survived in all are resilient. We have survived in all are resilient. We have survived in all kinds of different conditions, and kinds of different conditions, and kinds of different conditions, and that's kind of our superpower as humans that's kind of our superpower as humans that's kind of our superpower as humans is our adaptability. is our adaptability. is our adaptability. But, it's a relatively new But, it's a relatively new But, it's a relatively new phenomenon for men to be present at phenomenon for men to be present at phenomenon for men to be present at their baby's birth. Right? So, birth is their baby's birth. Right? So, birth is their baby's birth. Right? So, birth is a very social process, and that's unique a very social process, and that's unique a very social process, and that's unique for humans. So, most animals can deliver for humans. So, most animals can deliver for humans. So, most animals can deliver an infant solo, no problem. Like, birth an infant solo, no problem. Like, birth an infant solo, no problem. Like, birth is fairly straightforward. We have these is fairly straightforward. We have these is fairly straightforward. We have these complicated, annoying human pelvises complicated, annoying human pelvises complicated, annoying human pelvises that reshaped when we started walking that reshaped when we started walking that reshaped when we started walking upright, and we also have these babies upright, and we also have these babies upright, and we also have these babies with these gigantic social brains. And with these gigantic social brains. And with these gigantic social brains. And so, birth can be very cumbersome for so, birth can be very cumbersome for so, birth can be very cumbersome for women, and they often require assistance women, and they often require assistance women, and they often require assistance to steer a baby out of the birth canal. to steer a baby out of the birth canal. to steer a baby out of the birth canal. So, you see in most human births, there So, you see in most human births, there So, you see in most human births, there there are helpers. And in fact, one there are helpers. And in fact, one there are helpers. And in fact, one theory about why we evolved to live in theory about why we evolved to live in theory about why we evolved to live in societies is so that you would have societies is so that you would have societies is so that you would have people to assist in childbirth. That's people to assist in childbirth. That's people to assist in childbirth. That's one reason that we humans aren't just one reason that we humans aren't just one reason that we humans aren't just kind of, you know, solo uh kind of, you know, solo uh kind of, you know, solo uh you know, roamers, right? Like, we need you know, roamers, right? Like, we need you know, roamers, right? Like, we need to be embedded in society so that our to be embedded in society so that our to be embedded in society so that our babies will survive. babies will survive. babies will survive. But, the people helping with childbirth But, the people helping with childbirth But, the people helping with childbirth are almost always women through most of are almost always women through most of are almost always women through most of human history. It's a midwife, it's a human history. It's a midwife, it's a human history. It's a midwife, it's a grandmother, it's sisters, and community grandmother, it's sisters, and community grandmother, it's sisters, and community members. So, it was really only in the members. So, it was really only in the members. So, it was really only in the 19th century that childbirth became 19th century that childbirth became 19th century that childbirth became really medicalized, and you have doctors really medicalized, and you have doctors really medicalized, and you have doctors in hospitals who are presiding over in hospitals who are presiding over in hospitals who are presiding over childbirth. Even then, dads were kept childbirth. Even then, dads were kept childbirth. Even then, dads were kept out of the delivery room. So, it was in out of the delivery room. So, it was in out of the delivery room. So, it was in the '60s and '70s really that dads the '60s and '70s really that dads the '60s and '70s really that dads started to advocate to be present during started to advocate to be present during started to advocate to be present during their baby's birth. Before that, moms their baby's birth. Before that, moms their baby's birth. Before that, moms were under heavy anesthesia, and the were under heavy anesthesia, and the were under heavy anesthesia, and the standard father role was basically hang standard father role was basically hang standard father role was basically hang out, pass out cigars, and you know, get out, pass out cigars, and you know, get out, pass out cigars, and you know, get congratulated by your buddies. Right? congratulated by your buddies. Right? congratulated by your buddies. Right? So, we've seen this big shift and there So, we've seen this big shift and there So, we've seen this big shift and there hasn't been a lot of research on how the hasn't been a lot of research on how the hasn't been a lot of research on how the couple affects the childbirth couple affects the childbirth couple affects the childbirth experience. And also, what is the experience. And also, what is the experience. And also, what is the emotional impact for both mom and dad emotional impact for both mom and dad emotional impact for both mom and dad when dad is present at birth? We now when dad is present at birth? We now when dad is present at birth? We now expect dads to do a lot of the support expect dads to do a lot of the support expect dads to do a lot of the support that might have been provided by that might have been provided by that might have been provided by intergenerational kin in previous eras. intergenerational kin in previous eras. intergenerational kin in previous eras. And dads aren't trained for that or And dads aren't trained for that or And dads aren't trained for that or primed for that. And so, there can be primed for that. And so, there can be primed for that. And so, there can be emotional fallout from witnessing a emotional fallout from witnessing a emotional fallout from witnessing a traumatic and stressful birth. And like traumatic and stressful birth. And like traumatic and stressful birth. And like you mentioned the study from my lab, we you mentioned the study from my lab, we you mentioned the study from my lab, we found that when couples fought in more found that when couples fought in more found that when couples fought in more negative ways during pregnancy, the negative ways during pregnancy, the negative ways during pregnancy, the birth was more medically complex and birth was more medically complex and birth was more medically complex and riskier and both members of the couple riskier and both members of the couple riskier and both members of the couple appraised it as being more stressful. appraised it as being more stressful. appraised it as being more stressful. >> That's likely just >> That's likely just >> That's likely just the impact of emotional stress on a the impact of emotional stress on a the impact of emotional stress on a mother's body that or the downstream mother's body that or the downstream mother's body that or the downstream impact of that physiologically during impact of that physiologically during impact of that physiologically during childbirth is going to be negative. childbirth is going to be negative. childbirth is going to be negative. >> Yeah, exactly. So, we know stress, >> Yeah, exactly. So, we know stress, >> Yeah, exactly. So, we know stress, tension, fear, pain, right? So, tension, fear, pain, right? So, tension, fear, pain, right? So, when you're delivering an infant, your when you're delivering an infant, your when you're delivering an infant, your body has to release and relax. You have body has to release and relax. You have body has to release and relax. You have to allow the infant to move down through to allow the infant to move down through to allow the infant to move down through the birth canal. If you're clenched up, the birth canal. If you're clenched up, the birth canal. If you're clenched up, stressed, and tense, it makes it harder stressed, and tense, it makes it harder stressed, and tense, it makes it harder and it's going to feel more painful and and it's going to feel more painful and and it's going to feel more painful and it's going to lead to more difficult it's going to lead to more difficult it's going to lead to more difficult birth outcomes. birth outcomes. birth outcomes. >> What's been the impact of having men in >> What's been the impact of having men in >> What's been the impact of having men in the delivery room? Do you think it's the delivery room? Do you think it's the delivery room? Do you think it's been a good idea? been a good idea? been a good idea? >> I think it's been really good for some >> I think it's been really good for some >> I think it's been really good for some couples and I think it's been couples and I think it's been couples and I think it's been challenging for others. And it's become challenging for others. And it's become challenging for others. And it's become controversial, right? So, every sports controversial, right? So, every sports controversial, right? So, every sports season, there's a player that can't season, there's a player that can't season, there's a player that can't participate because he has to be present participate because he has to be present participate because he has to be present at his baby's birth. And I think it's at his baby's birth. And I think it's at his baby's birth. And I think it's really valuable for moms who benefit really valuable for moms who benefit really valuable for moms who benefit from having a partner there to provide from having a partner there to provide from having a partner there to provide support. Again, because we don't have support. Again, because we don't have support. Again, because we don't have these close intergenerational ties that these close intergenerational ties that these close intergenerational ties that maybe were normative a couple maybe were normative a couple maybe were normative a couple generations ago. generations ago. generations ago. So, I think having social support, So, I think having social support, So, I think having social support, continuous social support, is one of the continuous social support, is one of the continuous social support, is one of the best ways to have a positive birth best ways to have a positive birth best ways to have a positive birth experience. However, I think when dads experience. However, I think when dads experience. However, I think when dads are unprepared, when they're terrified, are unprepared, when they're terrified, are unprepared, when they're terrified, and when they haven't figured out how to and when they haven't figured out how to and when they haven't figured out how to communicate effectively with moms, they communicate effectively with moms, they communicate effectively with moms, they can have a deleterious impact on the can have a deleterious impact on the can have a deleterious impact on the birth process. birth process. birth process. >> What's couvade syndrome? >> What's couvade syndrome? >> What's couvade syndrome? >> So, that's male pregnancy, and it's a >> So, that's male pregnancy, and it's a >> So, that's male pregnancy, and it's a phenomenon by which males phenomenon by which males phenomenon by which males >> Is it a real thing? >> Is it a real thing? >> Is it a real thing? >> Well, it's a controversial thing. I talk >> Well, it's a controversial thing. I talk >> Well, it's a controversial thing. I talk about it a little bit in the book. I about it a little bit in the book. I about it a little bit in the book. I think it's more anecdotal than think it's more anecdotal than think it's more anecdotal than evidence-based. So, the data on it, evidence-based. So, the data on it, evidence-based. So, the data on it, there have been a couple studies that there have been a couple studies that there have been a couple studies that have that have been done, but I don't have that have been done, but I don't have that have been done, but I don't fully trust the results. We actually fully trust the results. We actually fully trust the results. We actually looked at in my sample of dads, we looked at in my sample of dads, we looked at in my sample of dads, we didn't find any associations between didn't find any associations between didn't find any associations between hormones and dad's self-reported hormones and dad's self-reported hormones and dad's self-reported pregnancy symptoms. But, it's basically pregnancy symptoms. But, it's basically pregnancy symptoms. But, it's basically like a sympathetic pregnancy, and you like a sympathetic pregnancy, and you like a sympathetic pregnancy, and you see it in different cross-cultural see it in different cross-cultural see it in different cross-cultural models. So, models. So, models. So, men feeling like they're experiencing men feeling like they're experiencing men feeling like they're experiencing nausea, pregnancy patterns of weight nausea, pregnancy patterns of weight nausea, pregnancy patterns of weight gain, uh sympathetic labor pains. And gain, uh sympathetic labor pains. And gain, uh sympathetic labor pains. And the study that was done in a UK hospital the study that was done in a UK hospital the study that was done in a UK hospital found that expectant dads reported a found that expectant dads reported a found that expectant dads reported a bunch of pregnancy-like symptoms during bunch of pregnancy-like symptoms during bunch of pregnancy-like symptoms during their partner's pregnancy. their partner's pregnancy. their partner's pregnancy. >> Just empathizing. Ladies, you say that >> Just empathizing. Ladies, you say that >> Just empathizing. Ladies, you say that you need us to open up more. We're just you need us to open up more. We're just you need us to open up more. We're just empathizing so much that I'm having empathizing so much that I'm having empathizing so much that I'm having period pains. period pains. period pains. >> Well, and a lot of these pains are >> Well, and a lot of these pains are >> Well, and a lot of these pains are stress-related, right? So, if you think stress-related, right? So, if you think stress-related, right? So, if you think about things like gastrointestinal about things like gastrointestinal about things like gastrointestinal distress and, you know, difficulty distress and, you know, difficulty distress and, you know, difficulty sleeping, those are things that come sleeping, those are things that come sleeping, those are things that come when you're really stressed when you're really stressed when you're really stressed >> Basically pregnant. >> Basically pregnant. >> Basically pregnant. >> So, yeah, exactly. >> So, yeah, exactly. >> So, yeah, exactly. >> Basically pregnant. >> Basically pregnant. >> Basically pregnant. >> Needless to say, a a lot of expectant >> Needless to say, a a lot of expectant >> Needless to say, a a lot of expectant moms are annoyed by this research moms are annoyed by this research moms are annoyed by this research because, you know, only one of you is because, you know, only one of you is because, you know, only one of you is actually puking because of the baby, the actually puking because of the baby, the actually puking because of the baby, the other person might just be freaking out. other person might just be freaking out. other person might just be freaking out. But, I think it's interesting that we But, I think it's interesting that we But, I think it's interesting that we are so contagious and we soak up the are so contagious and we soak up the are so contagious and we soak up the emotional experiences of people around emotional experiences of people around emotional experiences of people around us. us. us. >> What do you think couples should pay >> What do you think couples should pay >> What do you think couples should pay attention to as they're are through attention to as they're are through attention to as they're are through pregnancy, then? pregnancy, then? pregnancy, then? >> So, I I think they need to learn how to >> So, I I think they need to learn how to >> So, I I think they need to learn how to communicate effectively and listen to communicate effectively and listen to communicate effectively and listen to each other. I think a lot of the time each other. I think a lot of the time each other. I think a lot of the time women hear each other's birth stories women hear each other's birth stories women hear each other's birth stories just like you're at a picnic and just like you're at a picnic and just like you're at a picnic and everybody's telling you the gnarly story everybody's telling you the gnarly story everybody's telling you the gnarly story of, you know, their third baby's birth of, you know, their third baby's birth of, you know, their third baby's birth that got really complicated. Men don't that got really complicated. Men don't that got really complicated. Men don't necessarily get the opportunity to hear necessarily get the opportunity to hear necessarily get the opportunity to hear about different kinds of birth about different kinds of birth about different kinds of birth experiences or watch media that portrays experiences or watch media that portrays experiences or watch media that portrays birth in realistic ways cuz our pop birth in realistic ways cuz our pop birth in realistic ways cuz our pop culture conceptions are sort of bananas. culture conceptions are sort of bananas. culture conceptions are sort of bananas. So, I think birth education that So, I think birth education that So, I think birth education that involves fathers can be really valuable involves fathers can be really valuable involves fathers can be really valuable to normalize what to expect, what is the to normalize what to expect, what is the to normalize what to expect, what is the progress of labor going to be like, and progress of labor going to be like, and progress of labor going to be like, and how can you effectively provide support how can you effectively provide support how can you effectively provide support and be a calming influence. and be a calming influence. and be a calming influence. >> I've heard you say if you think that >> I've heard you say if you think that >> I've heard you say if you think that having a baby is going to fix your having a baby is going to fix your having a baby is going to fix your relationship, don't do it. relationship, don't do it. relationship, don't do it. >> Exactly. >> Exactly. >> Exactly. >> Why? >> Why? >> Why? >> Yeah, so the studies show a reliable >> Yeah, so the studies show a reliable >> Yeah, so the studies show a reliable drop in relationship satisfaction around drop in relationship satisfaction around drop in relationship satisfaction around the birth of a baby. And it's the birth of a baby. And it's the birth of a baby. And it's unsurprising if you think about the unsurprising if you think about the unsurprising if you think about the challenges of adjusting to life with a challenges of adjusting to life with a challenges of adjusting to life with a new baby. I used to joke that my husband new baby. I used to joke that my husband new baby. I used to joke that my husband and I went from good time pals to we're and I went from good time pals to we're and I went from good time pals to we're suddenly operating a small business with suddenly operating a small business with suddenly operating a small business with a very disappointed customer. Right? You a very disappointed customer. Right? You a very disappointed customer. Right? You have [laughter] someone You have someone crying around the clock You have someone crying around the clock who's not pleased with anything you're who's not pleased with anything you're who's not pleased with anything you're doing to comfort them, your sleep is doing to comfort them, your sleep is doing to comfort them, your sleep is disrupted, and you're suddenly worrying disrupted, and you're suddenly worrying disrupted, and you're suddenly worrying about money and your living about money and your living about money and your living arrangements, and all of these new arrangements, and all of these new arrangements, and all of these new concerns that maybe you didn't have concerns that maybe you didn't have concerns that maybe you didn't have before. before. before. >> Permanent one star reviews. >> Permanent one star reviews. >> Permanent one star reviews. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. Exactly. Exactly. Exactly. >> Most people have no idea where their >> Most people have no idea where their >> Most people have no idea where their testosterone levels sit, but what if I testosterone levels sit, but what if I testosterone levels sit, but what if I told you there was a solution? Something told you there was a solution? Something told you there was a solution? Something that identifies low T faster than a high that identifies low T faster than a high that identifies low T faster than a high school bully, and it won't cost you all school bully, and it won't cost you all school bully, and it won't cost you all your lunch money. That's where Function your lunch money. That's where Function your lunch money. That's where Function comes in. Gives you access to over 160 comes in. Gives you access to over 160 comes in. Gives you access to over 160 lab tests including a deep dive into lab tests including a deep dive into lab tests including a deep dive into your full hormone panel. Every result is your full hormone panel. Every result is your full hormone panel. Every result is reviewed by clinicians. Anything out of reviewed by clinicians. Anything out of reviewed by clinicians. Anything out of range is flagged, and you get clear range is flagged, and you get clear range is flagged, and you get clear explanations with a personalized explanations with a personalized explanations with a personalized protocol with actionable next steps. So, protocol with actionable next steps. So, protocol with actionable next steps. So, if something's off, you know exactly if something's off, you know exactly if something's off, you know exactly what to do about it. Whether you just what to do about it. Whether you just what to do about it. Whether you just need to go to the gym more or you need need to go to the gym more or you need need to go to the gym more or you need to play Creed louder in your car, to play Creed louder in your car, to play Creed louder in your car, Function will tell you exactly where Function will tell you exactly where Function will tell you exactly where your testosterone and everything else your testosterone and everything else your testosterone and everything else stands. Normally, this level of testing stands. Normally, this level of testing stands. Normally, this level of testing would usually cost thousands, but with would usually cost thousands, but with would usually cost thousands, but with Function it's $365 a year. That's $1 a Function it's $365 a year. That's $1 a Function it's $365 a year. That's $1 a day to stop guessing with your health day to stop guessing with your health day to stop guessing with your health and start knowing. And right now, you and start knowing. And right now, you and start knowing. And right now, you can get $25 off, bringing it down to 340 can get $25 off, bringing it down to 340 can get $25 off, bringing it down to 340 bucks. So, get the exact same blood bucks. So, get the exact same blood bucks. So, get the exact same blood panels that I do and save $25 by going panels that I do and save $25 by going panels that I do and save $25 by going to the link in the description below or to the link in the description below or to the link in the description below or heading to heading to heading to functionhealth.com/modernwisdom functionhealth.com/modernwisdom functionhealth.com/modernwisdom using the code modernwisdom at checkout. using the code modernwisdom at checkout. using the code modernwisdom at checkout. Okay, so why is it that becoming Okay, so why is it that becoming Okay, so why is it that becoming a father a father a father isn't enough? It's becoming a caregiver isn't enough? It's becoming a caregiver isn't enough? It's becoming a caregiver that creates dad brain. that creates dad brain. that creates dad brain. >> So, why is it that you need to actually >> So, why is it that you need to actually >> So, why is it that you need to actually spend time parenting? spend time parenting? spend time parenting? >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. Because it takes practice and >> Yeah. Because it takes practice and >> Yeah. Because it takes practice and repetition to build a brain, just like repetition to build a brain, just like repetition to build a brain, just like anything you learn, whether you're anything you learn, whether you're anything you learn, whether you're learning an instrument or a new language learning an instrument or a new language learning an instrument or a new language or, you know, a your London taxi driver or, you know, a your London taxi driver or, you know, a your London taxi driver navigating the city. navigating the city. navigating the city. >> Mhm. >> Mhm. >> Mhm. >> So, I think with moms, you have this >> So, I think with moms, you have this >> So, I think with moms, you have this kind of high floor of investment primed kind of high floor of investment primed kind of high floor of investment primed and ready to go. And partially, that's and ready to go. And partially, that's and ready to go. And partially, that's because because because it takes so much energy to incubate a it takes so much energy to incubate a it takes so much energy to incubate a pregnancy. It's thousands of calories. pregnancy. It's thousands of calories. pregnancy. It's thousands of calories. So, moms have already devoted a lot of So, moms have already devoted a lot of So, moms have already devoted a lot of energetic resources to babies before energetic resources to babies before energetic resources to babies before they even arrive. they even arrive. they even arrive. So, in if you think about you you sort So, in if you think about you you sort So, in if you think about you you sort of have a caregiving dial that can be of have a caregiving dial that can be of have a caregiving dial that can be turned up or down, turned up or down, turned up or down, moms are turned all the way up by the moms are turned all the way up by the moms are turned all the way up by the time the baby arrives. So, the example I time the baby arrives. So, the example I time the baby arrives. So, the example I gave you of a village where dads don't gave you of a village where dads don't gave you of a village where dads don't pick up their babies in the first year, pick up their babies in the first year, pick up their babies in the first year, it'd be very hard to find a village like it'd be very hard to find a village like it'd be very hard to find a village like that made up of moms who had similar that made up of moms who had similar that made up of moms who had similar prohibitions, right? prohibitions, right? prohibitions, right? Moms in many ways are biologically Moms in many ways are biologically Moms in many ways are biologically primed to care. With dads, it's like the primed to care. With dads, it's like the primed to care. With dads, it's like the dial is set more in the middle and it dial is set more in the middle and it dial is set more in the middle and it can be turned up or down depending on can be turned up or down depending on can be turned up or down depending on culture and local contextual demands. culture and local contextual demands. culture and local contextual demands. So, I think what's really cool about So, I think what's really cool about So, I think what's really cool about dads is that they come equipped with the dads is that they come equipped with the dads is that they come equipped with the biology that makes them ready to adapt biology that makes them ready to adapt biology that makes them ready to adapt to become sensitive caregivers. But to become sensitive caregivers. But to become sensitive caregivers. But whether or not they turn the dial whether or not they turn the dial whether or not they turn the dial is up to them. It's up to is mom is up to them. It's up to is mom is up to them. It's up to is mom incapacitated? incapacitated? incapacitated? Is am I in a culture where dads are Is am I in a culture where dads are Is am I in a culture where dads are really hands-on? So, in the book I talk really hands-on? So, in the book I talk really hands-on? So, in the book I talk about this concept of facultative about this concept of facultative about this concept of facultative adaptation, which is to say an adaptation, which is to say an adaptation, which is to say an adaptation that comes online when needed adaptation that comes online when needed adaptation that comes online when needed that can be very useful. So, you think that can be very useful. So, you think that can be very useful. So, you think about primates who run on four legs, but about primates who run on four legs, but about primates who run on four legs, but if they need to grab something, they can if they need to grab something, they can if they need to grab something, they can stand up and walk on two legs. So, you stand up and walk on two legs. So, you stand up and walk on two legs. So, you can grab more stuff if you have that can grab more stuff if you have that can grab more stuff if you have that ability. If you can turn up the dial for ability. If you can turn up the dial for ability. If you can turn up the dial for fatherhood, you can enrich kids' lives fatherhood, you can enrich kids' lives fatherhood, you can enrich kids' lives and you can benefit them and provide and you can benefit them and provide and you can benefit them and provide them with better outcomes and better them with better outcomes and better them with better outcomes and better odds of survival. odds of survival. odds of survival. >> Presumably, paternity uncertainty has >> Presumably, paternity uncertainty has >> Presumably, paternity uncertainty has got a role to play here as well. got a role to play here as well. got a role to play here as well. >> Yes. >> Yes. >> Yes. >> want to be locked in hormonally, >> want to be locked in hormonally, >> want to be locked in hormonally, neurologically to raising a child that neurologically to raising a child that neurologically to raising a child that you're not sure is yours. you're not sure is yours. you're not sure is yours. >> Exactly. And one of the really unique >> Exactly. And one of the really unique >> Exactly. And one of the really unique things about humans is we conceal our things about humans is we conceal our things about humans is we conceal our ovulation. ovulation. ovulation. So, human males don't know for sure So, human males don't know for sure So, human males don't know for sure whether or not they've caused a whether or not they've caused a whether or not they've caused a pregnancy. So, it actually incentivizes pregnancy. So, it actually incentivizes pregnancy. So, it actually incentivizes human males to invest in courtship. human males to invest in courtship. human males to invest in courtship. Because you can't just helicopter in, Because you can't just helicopter in, Because you can't just helicopter in, have sex once, and know that you've made have sex once, and know that you've made have sex once, and know that you've made a baby. You have to show up repeatedly a baby. You have to show up repeatedly a baby. You have to show up repeatedly if you want to be sure you have very if you want to be sure you have very if you want to be sure you have very good odds of success. And so, you're good odds of success. And so, you're good odds of success. And so, you're going to show up with gifts, and you're going to show up with gifts, and you're going to show up with gifts, and you're going to get to know that person, and going to get to know that person, and going to get to know that person, and and so it's adaptive to pair bond, which and so it's adaptive to pair bond, which and so it's adaptive to pair bond, which is why humans have really high rates of is why humans have really high rates of is why humans have really high rates of pair bonding compared to other species. pair bonding compared to other species. pair bonding compared to other species. So, we do see that dad's predilection to So, we do see that dad's predilection to So, we do see that dad's predilection to care give, again, can turn that dial up care give, again, can turn that dial up care give, again, can turn that dial up or down depending on the stability of or down depending on the stability of or down depending on the stability of their relationship with the baby's their relationship with the baby's their relationship with the baby's mother. mother. mother. >> Oh, so a a less stable relationship with >> Oh, so a a less stable relationship with >> Oh, so a a less stable relationship with the mother would result in a different the mother would result in a different the mother would result in a different parenting style from the dad. parenting style from the dad. parenting style from the dad. >> It could. Yeah, exactly. Yeah, it would >> It could. Yeah, exactly. Yeah, it would >> It could. Yeah, exactly. Yeah, it would motivate different reproductive motivate different reproductive motivate different reproductive strategy. strategy. strategy. >> Hm. Are you familiar with the >> Hm. Are you familiar with the >> Hm. Are you familiar with the Westermarck effect? Westermarck effect? Westermarck effect? >> Hm, I don't think so. >> Hm, I don't think so. >> Hm, I don't think so. >> It's how incest avoidance happens inside >> It's how incest avoidance happens inside >> It's how incest avoidance happens inside humans. So, it What's fascinating about humans. So, it What's fascinating about humans. So, it What's fascinating about this is um this is um this is um because you don't have There's no because you don't have There's no because you don't have There's no guarantees, I suppose. Even even like guarantees, I suppose. Even even like guarantees, I suppose. Even even like harem style gorillas and stuff don't harem style gorillas and stuff don't harem style gorillas and stuff don't know that the know that the know that the big silverback is the one that's had the big silverback is the one that's had the big silverback is the one that's had the kid and not some young upstart that's kid and not some young upstart that's kid and not some young upstart that's managed to sneak in or whatever. But for managed to sneak in or whatever. But for managed to sneak in or whatever. But for the most part, that would be a little the most part, that would be a little the most part, that would be a little bit different. bit different. bit different. What's fascinating is when you've got What's fascinating is when you've got What's fascinating is when you've got like ecologically informed like ecologically informed like ecologically informed uh neurological and behavior change uh neurological and behavior change uh neurological and behavior change hormonal behavior change, hormonal behavior change, hormonal behavior change, uh it happens there's this window uh it happens there's this window uh it happens there's this window between the age of like 1 and 10. And if between the age of like 1 and 10. And if between the age of like 1 and 10. And if you see primarily your mother, but also you see primarily your mother, but also you see primarily your mother, but also your father giving care to another your father giving care to another your father giving care to another infant, infant, infant, >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> you >> you >> you uh uh uh uh uh uh grow up with a sexual aversion to them. grow up with a sexual aversion to them. grow up with a sexual aversion to them. And what what was interesting, I I think And what what was interesting, I I think And what what was interesting, I I think it's a um maybe a an Indian maybe a an Indian an Indian culture uh that they an Indian culture uh that they an Indian culture uh that they perhaps a perhaps a perhaps a an Asian culture like Far East Asian an Asian culture like Far East Asian an Asian culture like Far East Asian culture where they used to find future culture where they used to find future culture where they used to find future wives for their baby sons as infants and wives for their baby sons as infants and wives for their baby sons as infants and they'd raise them together. So, you they'd raise them together. So, you they'd raise them together. So, you would have, you know, a 3-year-old and a would have, you know, a 3-year-old and a would have, you know, a 3-year-old and a 3-year-old living together. What they 3-year-old living together. What they 3-year-old living together. What they didn't realize is they were basically didn't realize is they were basically didn't realize is they were basically locking in this biological imprinting of locking in this biological imprinting of locking in this biological imprinting of that's my sister. that's my sister. that's my sister. >> Right. >> Right. >> Right. >> So, it's highly maladaptive. Um but you >> So, it's highly maladaptive. Um but you >> So, it's highly maladaptive. Um but you can see where the similarity lies here can see where the similarity lies here can see where the similarity lies here that that that >> Totally. >> Totally. >> Totally. >> the father's level of >> the father's level of >> the father's level of brain adaptation is based on the brain adaptation is based on the brain adaptation is based on the behavior of how much time he spends behavior of how much time he spends behavior of how much time he spends raising the child, doing nurturing, raising the child, doing nurturing, raising the child, doing nurturing, doing caregiving. And that means that doing caregiving. And that means that doing caregiving. And that means that you can go both ways. In the same way as you can go both ways. In the same way as you can go both ways. In the same way as you could have a twin that was born but you could have a twin that was born but you could have a twin that was born but raised separately, you would have no raised separately, you would have no raised separately, you would have no like like like imbued sexual aversion to them. There imbued sexual aversion to them. There imbued sexual aversion to them. There would be no incest disgust because the would be no incest disgust because the would be no incest disgust because the behavior that behavior that behavior that brings that in. So, really mothers brings that in. So, really mothers brings that in. So, really mothers are the only ones that have that like are the only ones that have that like are the only ones that have that like locked-in contract, biological contract locked-in contract, biological contract locked-in contract, biological contract with the baby. And everybody else from with the baby. And everybody else from with the baby. And everybody else from brothers to sisters to aunts to uncles, brothers to sisters to aunts to uncles, brothers to sisters to aunts to uncles, they're all kind of just learning as they're all kind of just learning as they're all kind of just learning as they go. they go. they go. >> Right. So, there's that natural >> Right. So, there's that natural >> Right. So, there's that natural variability that you see in the other variability that you see in the other variability that you see in the other parents, the people who are playing a parents, the people who are playing a parents, the people who are playing a role in parenting. And we know that as role in parenting. And we know that as role in parenting. And we know that as humans, we evolved to be allo parents. humans, we evolved to be allo parents. humans, we evolved to be allo parents. So, we're what's called cooperative So, we're what's called cooperative So, we're what's called cooperative breeders, which is to say we participate breeders, which is to say we participate breeders, which is to say we participate in collective care of offspring, which in collective care of offspring, which in collective care of offspring, which is very adaptive because human babies is very adaptive because human babies is very adaptive because human babies are so uniquely difficult to raise. We are so uniquely difficult to raise. We are so uniquely difficult to raise. We require so much intensive care, and it's require so much intensive care, and it's require so much intensive care, and it's too much for any one person to provide too much for any one person to provide too much for any one person to provide all of the round-the-clock care. So, we all of the round-the-clock care. So, we all of the round-the-clock care. So, we help each other out with parenting and help each other out with parenting and help each other out with parenting and caregiving, but the extent to which dads caregiving, but the extent to which dads caregiving, but the extent to which dads play a role is something that varies play a role is something that varies play a role is something that varies based on societal context. based on societal context. based on societal context. >> What are the behaviors that most create >> What are the behaviors that most create >> What are the behaviors that most create dad brain? If I was to design a menu or dad brain? If I was to design a menu or dad brain? If I was to design a menu or a daily routine to maximize that 1% a daily routine to maximize that 1% a daily routine to maximize that 1% change, what would I be doing? change, what would I be doing? change, what would I be doing? >> Yeah, you'd be picking your baby up, >> Yeah, you'd be picking your baby up, >> Yeah, you'd be picking your baby up, you'd be caring for them, you'd probably you'd be caring for them, you'd probably you'd be caring for them, you'd probably be sharing a sleeping surface with them, be sharing a sleeping surface with them, be sharing a sleeping surface with them, you'd be diapering them, you'd be you'd be diapering them, you'd be you'd be diapering them, you'd be feeding them, you'd be bathing them. So, feeding them, you'd be bathing them. So, feeding them, you'd be bathing them. So, you'd be doing the kind of intensive you'd be doing the kind of intensive you'd be doing the kind of intensive care that helps you really get to know a care that helps you really get to know a care that helps you really get to know a baby and attunes you more to their baby and attunes you more to their baby and attunes you more to their physiology and to their mind. Because physiology and to their mind. Because physiology and to their mind. Because where we see a lot of the change where we see a lot of the change where we see a lot of the change happening in men's brains is in what we happening in men's brains is in what we happening in men's brains is in what we call the mentalizing network. And that's call the mentalizing network. And that's call the mentalizing network. And that's a part of the brain that activates when a part of the brain that activates when a part of the brain that activates when we think about other people's minds and we think about other people's minds and we think about other people's minds and their intentions. It's what reads other their intentions. It's what reads other their intentions. It's what reads other people's emotions, and you could think people's emotions, and you could think people's emotions, and you could think about it as the seat of our empathy. And about it as the seat of our empathy. And about it as the seat of our empathy. And so that is a dynamic part of the brain so that is a dynamic part of the brain so that is a dynamic part of the brain in new dads and also in new moms, in in new dads and also in new moms, in in new dads and also in new moms, in part because when you are having to care part because when you are having to care part because when you are having to care for an infant who cannot communicate for an infant who cannot communicate for an infant who cannot communicate effectively, right? Cuz they can't talk, effectively, right? Cuz they can't talk, effectively, right? Cuz they can't talk, they just cry. You have to be able to they just cry. You have to be able to they just cry. You have to be able to read their emotions, and you have to be read their emotions, and you have to be read their emotions, and you have to be able to problem-solve to figure out what able to problem-solve to figure out what able to problem-solve to figure out what they need. So you're getting a lot of they need. So you're getting a lot of they need. So you're getting a lot of exercise to that empathetic part of the exercise to that empathetic part of the exercise to that empathetic part of the brain. brain. brain. >> function has been tuned down, so maybe >> function has been tuned down, so maybe >> function has been tuned down, so maybe your ability to come up with novel your ability to come up with novel your ability to come up with novel solutions might be less. solutions might be less. solutions might be less. >> Well, no, because I actually think you >> Well, no, because I actually think you >> Well, no, because I actually think you have to problem-solve quite a bit, so have to problem-solve quite a bit, so have to problem-solve quite a bit, so your executive functioning is also going your executive functioning is also going your executive functioning is also going to tune. to tune. to tune. >> Did you not say that some of the Oh, is >> Did you not say that some of the Oh, is >> Did you not say that some of the Oh, is it just moms that have got the executive it just moms that have got the executive it just moms that have got the executive function tuned down? function tuned down? function tuned down? >> No, moms both dads and moms. So it's >> No, moms both dads and moms. So it's >> No, moms both dads and moms. So it's tuning up. Well, it depends on whether tuning up. Well, it depends on whether tuning up. Well, it depends on whether you think of losing gray matter volume you think of losing gray matter volume you think of losing gray matter volume >> Right. >> Right. >> Right. >> as a tune-up or a tune-down. >> as a tune-up or a tune-down. >> as a tune-up or a tune-down. >> Right, right. >> Right, right. >> Right, right. >> And the jury's a little out on that. We >> And the jury's a little out on that. We >> And the jury's a little out on that. We see volume reduction, which we think is see volume reduction, which we think is see volume reduction, which we think is about pruning and becoming more about pruning and becoming more about pruning and becoming more efficient. efficient. efficient. >> What's lost? >> What's lost? >> What's lost? >> Well, our short-term memory for objects >> Well, our short-term memory for objects >> Well, our short-term memory for objects that aren't our baby. that aren't our baby. that aren't our baby. So there's some evidence that working So there's some evidence that working So there's some evidence that working memory gets compromised, but we often memory gets compromised, but we often memory gets compromised, but we often use this deficit framing when we talk use this deficit framing when we talk use this deficit framing when we talk about mommy brain, like, "Oh, I, you about mommy brain, like, "Oh, I, you about mommy brain, like, "Oh, I, you know, I forgot where I parked the car." know, I forgot where I parked the car." know, I forgot where I parked the car." >> Mhm. >> Mhm. >> Mhm. >> It actually looks like certain kinds of >> It actually looks like certain kinds of >> It actually looks like certain kinds of memory are enhanced, and it's salience memory are enhanced, and it's salience memory are enhanced, and it's salience driven. So it's memory for your baby's driven. So it's memory for your baby's driven. So it's memory for your baby's smells, objects that are pertinent to smells, objects that are pertinent to smells, objects that are pertinent to your baby. You know, rodents have to your baby. You know, rodents have to your baby. You know, rodents have to figure out where they've stashed their figure out where they've stashed their figure out where they've stashed their babies, like in a nest full of bedding. babies, like in a nest full of bedding. babies, like in a nest full of bedding. So one reason the hippocampus, which is So one reason the hippocampus, which is So one reason the hippocampus, which is the part of the brain that the part of the brain that the part of the brain that we think of as implicated in memory, is we think of as implicated in memory, is we think of as implicated in memory, is also really sensitive to smell, is you also really sensitive to smell, is you also really sensitive to smell, is you kind of have to smell your way to find kind of have to smell your way to find kind of have to smell your way to find the baby to retrieve your pup. So, the the baby to retrieve your pup. So, the the baby to retrieve your pup. So, the hippocampus is really plastic in new hippocampus is really plastic in new hippocampus is really plastic in new moms and new dads. So, it's like our moms and new dads. So, it's like our moms and new dads. So, it's like our memory is actually getting a different memory is actually getting a different memory is actually getting a different kind of workout, but we're maybe losing kind of workout, but we're maybe losing kind of workout, but we're maybe losing our sharpness in some domains and our sharpness in some domains and our sharpness in some domains and improving our functioning in others. improving our functioning in others. improving our functioning in others. >> Better able to detect what does this >> Better able to detect what does this >> Better able to detect what does this small thing want? What does it mean? small thing want? What does it mean? small thing want? What does it mean? Where did I leave things that are Where did I leave things that are Where did I leave things that are associated with it? Bottles and and associated with it? Bottles and and associated with it? Bottles and and diapers and and it itself and stuff like diapers and and it itself and stuff like diapers and and it itself and stuff like that. that. that. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> But maybe less so >> But maybe less so >> But maybe less so where did I leave the car? Where did I where did I leave the car? Where did I where did I leave the car? Where did I leave the keys? What does the rest of my leave the keys? What does the rest of my leave the keys? What does the rest of my day look like outside of the baby day look like outside of the baby day look like outside of the baby orchestrating the operations of the rest orchestrating the operations of the rest orchestrating the operations of the rest of my life? of my life? of my life? >> Exactly. And it's also about value, >> Exactly. And it's also about value, >> Exactly. And it's also about value, right? It's what domains are we right? It's what domains are we right? It's what domains are we motivated to optimize. So, a lot of motivated to optimize. So, a lot of motivated to optimize. So, a lot of people find both moms and dads that people find both moms and dads that people find both moms and dads that after they have kids, they care a little after they have kids, they care a little after they have kids, they care a little bit less about achieving at work, right? bit less about achieving at work, right? bit less about achieving at work, right? Which is not to say that moms and dads Which is not to say that moms and dads Which is not to say that moms and dads are bad workers. If anything I actually are bad workers. If anything I actually are bad workers. If anything I actually think they make great contributions to think they make great contributions to think they make great contributions to organizations because of all the skills organizations because of all the skills organizations because of all the skills they develop to care for they develop to care for they develop to care for >> domain to a non-parent. >> domain to a non-parent. >> domain to a non-parent. >> Right. But priorities shift. And and at >> Right. But priorities shift. And and at >> Right. But priorities shift. And and at least in the short term. Although, the least in the short term. Although, the least in the short term. Although, the good news is that it appears that having good news is that it appears that having good news is that it appears that having become a parent is neuroprotective in become a parent is neuroprotective in become a parent is neuroprotective in late life. So, there's some work coming late life. So, there's some work coming late life. So, there's some work coming out of the UK Biobank, which is this big out of the UK Biobank, which is this big out of the UK Biobank, which is this big repository of scan studies from repository of scan studies from repository of scan studies from middle-aged and older adults that finds middle-aged and older adults that finds middle-aged and older adults that finds that when you've had more children, you that when you've had more children, you that when you've had more children, you actually have better cognitive actually have better cognitive actually have better cognitive functioning and brains that look functioning and brains that look functioning and brains that look younger. So, if you use a a machine younger. So, if you use a a machine younger. So, if you use a a machine learning algorithm to try to figure out learning algorithm to try to figure out learning algorithm to try to figure out how old is the brain compared to its how old is the brain compared to its how old is the brain compared to its chronological age, people who've had chronological age, people who've had chronological age, people who've had more kids up to a certain point, it tops more kids up to a certain point, it tops more kids up to a certain point, it tops off at around three kids, actually have off at around three kids, actually have off at around three kids, actually have brains that the machine learning brains that the machine learning brains that the machine learning algorithm codes as younger. algorithm codes as younger. algorithm codes as younger. >> What's your proposed mechanism for that? >> What's your proposed mechanism for that? >> What's your proposed mechanism for that? >> So, I think it's about social >> So, I think it's about social >> So, I think it's about social integration. So, the fact that it shows integration. So, the fact that it shows integration. So, the fact that it shows up in dads as well as moms tells me it's up in dads as well as moms tells me it's up in dads as well as moms tells me it's not just pregnancy hormones. It's not not just pregnancy hormones. It's not not just pregnancy hormones. It's not just birth experiences, not just just birth experiences, not just just birth experiences, not just breastfeeding. I think it's about, and breastfeeding. I think it's about, and breastfeeding. I think it's about, and we know this in both men and women, that we know this in both men and women, that we know this in both men and women, that being more socially connected to other being more socially connected to other being more socially connected to other people is really important for health. people is really important for health. people is really important for health. >> Even if that person is a mini version of >> Even if that person is a mini version of >> Even if that person is a mini version of you. you. you. >> Yeah. Yeah, I mean even more so maybe >> Yeah. Yeah, I mean even more so maybe >> Yeah. Yeah, I mean even more so maybe because then you're especially attuned because then you're especially attuned because then you're especially attuned to them. Right? It's good for longevity. to them. Right? It's good for longevity. to them. Right? It's good for longevity. >> could So the >> could So the >> could So the the thing that's coming to mind here is the thing that's coming to mind here is the thing that's coming to mind here is I wonder I wonder I wonder whether you could replicate those whether you could replicate those whether you could replicate those neuroprotective results by just having a neuroprotective results by just having a neuroprotective results by just having a really, really, really deep friendship really, really, really deep friendship really, really, really deep friendship with one person. And I wonder whether with one person. And I wonder whether with one person. And I wonder whether you could create the same brain changes you could create the same brain changes you could create the same brain changes in reduction of salience networks in reduction of salience networks in reduction of salience networks outside of this one thing and increase outside of this one thing and increase outside of this one thing and increase of awareness, attention, etc. with of awareness, attention, etc. with of awareness, attention, etc. with business or a dog. Like if you just business or a dog. Like if you just business or a dog. Like if you just dedicate cuz if these networks are as dedicate cuz if these networks are as dedicate cuz if these networks are as flexible as you say they are, if they're flexible as you say they are, if they're flexible as you say they are, if they're as malleable as you say they are, then as malleable as you say they are, then as malleable as you say they are, then it shouldn't just be a baby that's able it shouldn't just be a baby that's able it shouldn't just be a baby that's able to trigger this. to trigger this. to trigger this. >> Anything really vulnerable that you care >> Anything really vulnerable that you care >> Anything really vulnerable that you care for, develop empathy for, probably for, develop empathy for, probably for, develop empathy for, probably >> a >> a >> a You might not develop that much empathy You might not develop that much empathy You might not develop that much empathy for your business. for your business. for your business. >> Maybe not or for your friend. I mean, I >> Maybe not or for your friend. I mean, I >> Maybe not or for your friend. I mean, I guess you can be very empathetic with guess you can be very empathetic with guess you can be very empathetic with your friends. your friends. your friends. >> animal that you were caring for? >> animal that you were caring for? >> animal that you were caring for? >> Yeah. Absolutely. And I think a lot of >> Yeah. Absolutely. And I think a lot of >> Yeah. Absolutely. And I think a lot of young people do adopt pets either in young people do adopt pets either in young people do adopt pets either in lieu of or in preparation for having lieu of or in preparation for having lieu of or in preparation for having babies. And and you are practicing a lot babies. And and you are practicing a lot babies. And and you are practicing a lot of those same kinds of skills. of those same kinds of skills. of those same kinds of skills. >> Mhm. Is it just It's literally just the >> Mhm. Is it just It's literally just the >> Mhm. Is it just It's literally just the fact that salience outside the all of fact that salience outside the all of fact that salience outside the all of the mom brain stuff, all of the dad the mom brain stuff, all of the dad the mom brain stuff, all of the dad brain stuff, the things that they are uh brain stuff, the things that they are uh brain stuff, the things that they are uh uh reporting being by, maybe being a uh reporting being by, maybe being a uh reporting being by, maybe being a little bit irritated by, those are little bit irritated by, those are little bit irritated by, those are primarily primarily primarily stuff Anything that's not baby related stuff Anything that's not baby related stuff Anything that's not baby related is just is just is just a little bit less aware to me. a little bit less aware to me. a little bit less aware to me. >> Yeah, although you might find and and >> Yeah, although you might find and and >> Yeah, although you might find and and this is true. I talked to somebody that this is true. I talked to somebody that this is true. I talked to somebody that took a parenting class and found that it took a parenting class and found that it took a parenting class and found that it ultimately made him a much better ultimately made him a much better ultimately made him a much better manager at work. So, I think they're manager at work. So, I think they're manager at work. So, I think they're sort of like the short-term, maybe sort of like the short-term, maybe sort of like the short-term, maybe downgrading of everything except the downgrading of everything except the downgrading of everything except the baby. And then there's a long-term baby. And then there's a long-term baby. And then there's a long-term building of new skills and stronger building of new skills and stronger building of new skills and stronger social networks. Ideally, right? When social networks. Ideally, right? When social networks. Ideally, right? When things go right. That's not true for things go right. That's not true for things go right. That's not true for everybody. But I think these are everybody. But I think these are everybody. But I think these are transferable skills. So, if you think transferable skills. So, if you think transferable skills. So, if you think about becoming an empathetic parent as about becoming an empathetic parent as about becoming an empathetic parent as analogous to being a good friend or a analogous to being a good friend or a analogous to being a good friend or a good caretaker in other domains, you good caretaker in other domains, you good caretaker in other domains, you know, know, know, >> Transferable skills. >> Transferable skills. >> Transferable skills. >> Yeah, like men who are coaches, who are >> Yeah, like men who are coaches, who are >> Yeah, like men who are coaches, who are teachers, who are guidance counselors, teachers, who are guidance counselors, teachers, who are guidance counselors, who are religious leaders, you know, I who are religious leaders, you know, I who are religious leaders, you know, I talked to somebody for the book who said talked to somebody for the book who said talked to somebody for the book who said we often think about caregiving in very we often think about caregiving in very we often think about caregiving in very feminized ways, but the fireman who feminized ways, but the fireman who feminized ways, but the fireman who pulls a family out of a burning building pulls a family out of a burning building pulls a family out of a burning building is a caregiver, right? The policeman who is a caregiver, right? The policeman who is a caregiver, right? The policeman who keeps a family safe is a caregiver, keeps a family safe is a caregiver, keeps a family safe is a caregiver, right? We can broaden our understanding right? We can broaden our understanding right? We can broaden our understanding of care to include sort of traditional of care to include sort of traditional of care to include sort of traditional masculinity and celebrate how important masculinity and celebrate how important masculinity and celebrate how important that is for society. that is for society. that is for society. >> Mhm. So, if a dad's brain literally >> Mhm. So, if a dad's brain literally >> Mhm. So, if a dad's brain literally doesn't change unless he's hands-on with doesn't change unless he's hands-on with doesn't change unless he's hands-on with caregiving, is it right to say like, I caregiving, is it right to say like, I caregiving, is it right to say like, I love my kids, but I'm not a hands-on guy love my kids, but I'm not a hands-on guy love my kids, but I'm not a hands-on guy is is is more a biological confession than a more a biological confession than a more a biological confession than a personality trait? personality trait? personality trait? >> I think it depends. I think it depends >> I think it depends. I think it depends >> I think it depends. I think it depends on what the context is and what is on what the context is and what is on what the context is and what is adaptive for a particular family. Cuz I adaptive for a particular family. Cuz I adaptive for a particular family. Cuz I think there are cultures in which having think there are cultures in which having think there are cultures in which having dads who aren't hands-on dads who aren't hands-on dads who aren't hands-on make sense for that the local demands make sense for that the local demands make sense for that the local demands because you have other caregivers or because you have other caregivers or because you have other caregivers or because dads are needed to do some kind because dads are needed to do some kind because dads are needed to do some kind of very specialized labor. I think in of very specialized labor. I think in of very specialized labor. I think in contemporary societies where we expect a contemporary societies where we expect a contemporary societies where we expect a fairly high level of involvement from fairly high level of involvement from fairly high level of involvement from most fathers, most fathers, most fathers, I would frame it as a missed I would frame it as a missed I would frame it as a missed opportunity. opportunity. opportunity. >> Mhm. Mhm. Have you seen Bob Odenkirk >> Mhm. Mhm. Have you seen Bob Odenkirk >> Mhm. Mhm. Have you seen Bob Odenkirk talking about what it means to be a dad? talking about what it means to be a dad? talking about what it means to be a dad? >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> It's so good. >> It's so good. >> It's so good. >> Bob Odenkirk. >> Bob Odenkirk. >> Bob Odenkirk. >> He's the man. Play that clip for me, >> He's the man. Play that clip for me, >> He's the man. Play that clip for me, Jared. I think it's I think it's so Jared. I think it's I think it's so Jared. I think it's I think it's so cool. cool. cool. >> Who were you jealous of? >> Who were you jealous of? >> Who were you jealous of? >> Anybody who still got little kids at >> Anybody who still got little kids at >> Anybody who still got little kids at home growing up. home growing up. home growing up. >> Aw. >> Aw. >> Aw. >> Yeah, there's no question I knew what I >> Yeah, there's no question I knew what I >> Yeah, there's no question I knew what I was doing when I had kids growing up. I was doing when I had kids growing up. I was doing when I had kids growing up. I was being a dad. I mean, that was my was being a dad. I mean, that was my was being a dad. I mean, that was my job. And I didn't have to ask myself, job. And I didn't have to ask myself, job. And I didn't have to ask myself, "What am I doing here? What am I doing? "What am I doing here? What am I doing? "What am I doing here? What am I doing? How can I be a part of this world? How How can I be a part of this world? How How can I be a part of this world? How can I be meaningful today?" I didn't can I be meaningful today?" I didn't can I be meaningful today?" I didn't have to ask that question cuz the answer have to ask that question cuz the answer have to ask that question cuz the answer is pick up everything between here and is pick up everything between here and is pick up everything between here and the door. the door. the door. >> [laughter] >> [laughter] >> [laughter] >> That's right. >> That's right. >> That's right. >> And make sure they get to school and >> And make sure they get to school and >> And make sure they get to school and have a laugh with them, you know. have a laugh with them, you know. have a laugh with them, you know. >> Aw. >> Aw. >> Aw. >> It was life was >> It was life was >> It was life was I understood I understood I understood my purpose. my purpose. my purpose. >> Best answer. >> Best answer. >> Best answer. >> Who were you jealous of? >> Who were you jealous of? >> Who were you jealous of? >> I love that. Yeah, and I think we do >> I love that. Yeah, and I think we do >> I love that. Yeah, and I think we do find that sense of meaning and purpose, find that sense of meaning and purpose, find that sense of meaning and purpose, which is so important for our which is so important for our which is so important for our well-being, our sense of connectedness, well-being, our sense of connectedness, well-being, our sense of connectedness, our sense of coherence, like he just our sense of coherence, like he just our sense of coherence, like he just talked about, like feeling like you have talked about, like feeling like you have talked about, like feeling like you have a reason to do what you do every day, a reason to do what you do every day, a reason to do what you do every day, and that life is happening according to and that life is happening according to and that life is happening according to plan. That is so important for plan. That is so important for plan. That is so important for psychological health. psychological health. psychological health. >> I'm so excited to become a father. I >> I'm so excited to become a father. I >> I'm so excited to become a father. I can't wait for it. can't wait for it. can't wait for it. >> Sorry, are you working on it? >> Sorry, are you working on it? >> Sorry, are you working on it? >> Uh yeah, well, reliably you can't do it >> Uh yeah, well, reliably you can't do it >> Uh yeah, well, reliably you can't do it on your own. Um on your own. Um on your own. Um >> I've heard that. >> I've heard that. >> I've heard that. >> Which is which is I've I have tried. Um >> Which is which is I've I have tried. Um >> Which is which is I've I have tried. Um but but but uh yeah, that's you need somebody else uh yeah, that's you need somebody else uh yeah, that's you need somebody else to be ready at the same time. to be ready at the same time. to be ready at the same time. >> Yeah, that's the tricky part. >> Yeah, that's the tricky part. >> Yeah, that's the tricky part. >> Um what do you make of the deadbeat dad >> Um what do you make of the deadbeat dad >> Um what do you make of the deadbeat dad narrative? narrative? narrative? >> Yeah, so I think it is true in some >> Yeah, so I think it is true in some >> Yeah, so I think it is true in some cases and it's unfair to dads in many cases and it's unfair to dads in many cases and it's unfair to dads in many other cases. So, in 1960, you had 88% of other cases. So, in 1960, you had 88% of other cases. So, in 1960, you had 88% of kids living with a father at home. kids living with a father at home. kids living with a father at home. That dipped down in 2005 to 67% of kids That dipped down in 2005 to 67% of kids That dipped down in 2005 to 67% of kids and has actually rebounded. So, today and has actually rebounded. So, today and has actually rebounded. So, today about 76% of kids in the US are living about 76% of kids in the US are living about 76% of kids in the US are living with a father at home. So, there's been with a father at home. So, there's been with a father at home. So, there's been this this this >> A father or the father? >> A father or the father? >> A father or the father? >> They're usually the father, but not >> They're usually the father, but not >> They're usually the father, but not always. So, sometimes there's complex always. So, sometimes there's complex always. So, sometimes there's complex fatherhood where dads are living with fatherhood where dads are living with fatherhood where dads are living with um kids that weren't originally theirs. um kids that weren't originally theirs. um kids that weren't originally theirs. But at least having a stepfather figure But at least having a stepfather figure But at least having a stepfather figure in the home. So, there's been this kind in the home. So, there's been this kind in the home. So, there's been this kind of U-shaped change and father presence. of U-shaped change and father presence. of U-shaped change and father presence. But I think we often think about But I think we often think about But I think we often think about fatherhood as this binary absent dad fatherhood as this binary absent dad fatherhood as this binary absent dad versus present dad and there are a lot versus present dad and there are a lot versus present dad and there are a lot of shades of gradation in between. So of shades of gradation in between. So of shades of gradation in between. So many non-residential fathers are really many non-residential fathers are really many non-residential fathers are really involved in caregiving. I talk about involved in caregiving. I talk about involved in caregiving. I talk about this in the book but after my parents this in the book but after my parents this in the book but after my parents got divorced we did joint custody. So my got divorced we did joint custody. So my got divorced we did joint custody. So my brothers and I were alone with our dad brothers and I were alone with our dad brothers and I were alone with our dad every other week and he went from fairly every other week and he went from fairly every other week and he went from fairly hands-off caregiver to suddenly the hands-off caregiver to suddenly the hands-off caregiver to suddenly the primary parent in charge of everything primary parent in charge of everything primary parent in charge of everything we needed and I watched how we needed and I watched how we needed and I watched how transformative that was for him. So transformative that was for him. So transformative that was for him. So there are different ways again to turn there are different ways again to turn there are different ways again to turn that dial of fatherhood and I think when that dial of fatherhood and I think when that dial of fatherhood and I think when dads fully check out like I said it's a dads fully check out like I said it's a dads fully check out like I said it's a missed opportunity both for themselves missed opportunity both for themselves missed opportunity both for themselves and for their kid. and for their kid. and for their kid. But there are a lot of ways to turn the But there are a lot of ways to turn the But there are a lot of ways to turn the dial back up. I talked to a dad for the dial back up. I talked to a dad for the dial back up. I talked to a dad for the book who spent the first three years of book who spent the first three years of book who spent the first three years of his son's life in jail his son's life in jail his son's life in jail and was able to get out, reunite with and was able to get out, reunite with and was able to get out, reunite with his son, take parenting classes. He now his son, take parenting classes. He now his son, take parenting classes. He now works at an organization called Homeboy works at an organization called Homeboy works at an organization called Homeboy Industries which does Industries which does Industries which does uh intervention for gang-involved people uh intervention for gang-involved people uh intervention for gang-involved people in LA and he directs a project in LA and he directs a project in LA and he directs a project fatherhood program and he said having fatherhood program and he said having fatherhood program and he said having that bond with his son was the single that bond with his son was the single that bond with his son was the single saving grace that actually helped him to saving grace that actually helped him to saving grace that actually helped him to reroute his life. reroute his life. reroute his life. >> Most people don't realize how much being >> Most people don't realize how much being >> Most people don't realize how much being dehydrated impacts their performance dehydrated impacts their performance dehydrated impacts their performance which is why for the last 5 years I've which is why for the last 5 years I've which is why for the last 5 years I've started pretty much every morning with started pretty much every morning with started pretty much every morning with Element. Element is a tasty electrolyte Element. Element is a tasty electrolyte Element. Element is a tasty electrolyte drink mix with everything that you need drink mix with everything that you need drink mix with everything that you need and nothing that you don't. This orange and nothing that you don't. This orange and nothing that you don't. This orange salt in a cold glass of water is like a salt in a cold glass of water is like a salt in a cold glass of water is like a sweet salty orangey nectar and I really sweet salty orangey nectar and I really sweet salty orangey nectar and I really tell the difference when I take it tell the difference when I take it tell the difference when I take it versus when I don't. It plays a critical versus when I don't. It plays a critical versus when I don't. It plays a critical role in reducing muscle cramps and role in reducing muscle cramps and role in reducing muscle cramps and fatigue, helps to optimize brain health fatigue, helps to optimize brain health fatigue, helps to optimize brain health and regulate your appetite while also and regulate your appetite while also and regulate your appetite while also curbing cravings. Best of all they have curbing cravings. Best of all they have curbing cravings. Best of all they have a no questions asked refund policy with a no questions asked refund policy with a no questions asked refund policy with an unlimited duration so you can buy it an unlimited duration so you can buy it an unlimited duration so you can buy it and try it for for long as you want and and try it for for long as you want and and try it for for long as you want and if you don't like it for any reason, if you don't like it for any reason, if you don't like it for any reason, I'll just give you your money back. I'll just give you your money back. I'll just give you your money back. Plus, they offer free shipping in the Plus, they offer free shipping in the Plus, they offer free shipping in the US. Right now, you can get a free sample US. Right now, you can get a free sample US. Right now, you can get a free sample pack of Element's most popular flavors pack of Element's most popular flavors pack of Element's most popular flavors with your first purchase by going to the with your first purchase by going to the with your first purchase by going to the link in the description below or heading link in the description below or heading link in the description below or heading to drinklmnt.com/modernwisdom. to drinklmnt.com/modernwisdom. to drinklmnt.com/modernwisdom. That's drinklmnt.com That's drinklmnt.com That's drinklmnt.com /modernwisdom. /modernwisdom. /modernwisdom. modernwisdom. modernwisdom. modernwisdom. Are you aware if there's a window Are you aware if there's a window Are you aware if there's a window similar to the Westermarck effect of similar to the Westermarck effect of similar to the Westermarck effect of time after which an older male time after which an older male time after which an older male isn't able to attach to a younger child isn't able to attach to a younger child isn't able to attach to a younger child in the same way? Exist has um pretty in the same way? Exist has um pretty in the same way? Exist has um pretty sort of positive connotations for sort of positive connotations for sort of positive connotations for stepdads stepdads stepdads um because it suggests that you can bond um because it suggests that you can bond um because it suggests that you can bond pretty much just as apart from the pretty much just as apart from the pretty much just as apart from the cognitive realization like this isn't cognitive realization like this isn't cognitive realization like this isn't mine. mine. mine. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Uh if you spend enough time with baby on >> Uh if you spend enough time with baby on >> Uh if you spend enough time with baby on chest, you're probably going to get chest, you're probably going to get chest, you're probably going to get locked in, but especially with stepdads locked in, but especially with stepdads locked in, but especially with stepdads and maybe fathers that are absent or and maybe fathers that are absent or and maybe fathers that are absent or working or whatever, they might not be working or whatever, they might not be working or whatever, they might not be as available during those years. And I as available during those years. And I as available during those years. And I have to assume like if I hang around have to assume like if I hang around have to assume like if I hang around with a 21-year-old dude lots and with a 21-year-old dude lots and with a 21-year-old dude lots and empathize and care for him, I'm probably empathize and care for him, I'm probably empathize and care for him, I'm probably not going to see him as my son just like not going to see him as my son just like not going to see him as my son just like out of the gate. So, it suggests to me out of the gate. So, it suggests to me out of the gate. So, it suggests to me that there's a kind of tail off in some that there's a kind of tail off in some that there's a kind of tail off in some way, but I mean this is total bro way, but I mean this is total bro way, but I mean this is total bro science here. So, science here. So, science here. So, >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> This this makes me feel a little >> This this makes me feel a little >> This this makes me feel a little bit better. It's the bro science hat. bit better. It's the bro science hat. bit better. It's the bro science hat. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Um but you understand what I mean? Have >> Um but you understand what I mean? Have >> Um but you understand what I mean? Have you got any insight around that? you got any insight around that? you got any insight around that? >> Yeah, that's true or not. It's a really >> Yeah, that's true or not. It's a really >> Yeah, that's true or not. It's a really interesting question sort of at what interesting question sort of at what interesting question sort of at what point do you maybe miss that opportunity point do you maybe miss that opportunity point do you maybe miss that opportunity to bond? And I think what's key is that to bond? And I think what's key is that to bond? And I think what's key is that you have a front row seat to a child's you have a front row seat to a child's you have a front row seat to a child's development during some critical period. development during some critical period. development during some critical period. However, However, However, I think we often overemphasize early I think we often overemphasize early I think we often overemphasize early infancy. And there's this idea that if infancy. And there's this idea that if infancy. And there's this idea that if we miss the first hour after birth or we miss the first hour after birth or we miss the first hour after birth or the first the first the first 3 days after birth or the first month 3 days after birth or the first month 3 days after birth or the first month that we've somehow missed our chance to that we've somehow missed our chance to that we've somehow missed our chance to bond, and that's not really true, right? bond, and that's not really true, right? bond, and that's not really true, right? We know that adopted parents and step We know that adopted parents and step We know that adopted parents and step parents can have profound connections parents can have profound connections parents can have profound connections with their kids. I grew up with a with their kids. I grew up with a with their kids. I grew up with a stepdad who I met when I was nine, and stepdad who I met when I was nine, and stepdad who I met when I was nine, and he ended up being a really formative he ended up being a really formative he ended up being a really formative influence in my life. influence in my life. influence in my life. And and so I think it depends on And and so I think it depends on And and so I think it depends on when the dad comes into the picture and when the dad comes into the picture and when the dad comes into the picture and what kind of work and practice he's what kind of work and practice he's what kind of work and practice he's willing to put in to make that willing to put in to make that willing to put in to make that connection. But I would say as long as connection. But I would say as long as connection. But I would say as long as there's any stretch of a child's youth there's any stretch of a child's youth there's any stretch of a child's youth that a dad is witnessing and that a dad is witnessing and that a dad is witnessing and participating in, he can play a role as participating in, he can play a role as participating in, he can play a role as a parent. a parent. a parent. >> What about impacts on hormones in men? >> What about impacts on hormones in men? >> What about impacts on hormones in men? >> Yeah, so we see changes in testosterone >> Yeah, so we see changes in testosterone >> Yeah, so we see changes in testosterone around the birth of a new baby. We don't around the birth of a new baby. We don't around the birth of a new baby. We don't know as much about how hormones change know as much about how hormones change know as much about how hormones change in adoptive or step parents because in adoptive or step parents because in adoptive or step parents because there just isn't a lot of research about there just isn't a lot of research about there just isn't a lot of research about this. Most of the work is on early this. Most of the work is on early this. Most of the work is on early parenthood and and most of it is parenthood and and most of it is parenthood and and most of it is focusing on biological parents. focusing on biological parents. focusing on biological parents. >> Mhm. >> Mhm. >> Mhm. So testosterone gets tuned down? So testosterone gets tuned down? So testosterone gets tuned down? >> Mhm. >> Mhm. >> Mhm. >> Does that increase with caregiving? >> Does that increase with caregiving? >> Does that increase with caregiving? >> Yes. >> Yes. >> Yes. >> In fact, does that happen without >> In fact, does that happen without >> In fact, does that happen without caregiving? caregiving? caregiving? >> No. >> No. >> No. >> Right. >> Right. >> Right. >> So it's linked as are the brain changes >> So it's linked as are the brain changes >> So it's linked as are the brain changes to dad's participation in care. to dad's participation in care. to dad's participation in care. >> Okay. >> Okay. >> Okay. >> So we see this not just in humans, we >> So we see this not just in humans, we >> So we see this not just in humans, we see this in animal models as well. see this in animal models as well. see this in animal models as well. You are probably familiar with the You are probably familiar with the You are probably familiar with the challenge hypothesis, the idea that we challenge hypothesis, the idea that we challenge hypothesis, the idea that we want high levels of testosterone under want high levels of testosterone under want high levels of testosterone under certain circumstances, it's adaptive for certain circumstances, it's adaptive for certain circumstances, it's adaptive for testosterone to drop in other testosterone to drop in other testosterone to drop in other circumstances. So circumstances. So circumstances. So birds are the classic example. birds are the classic example. birds are the classic example. Testosterone levels rise at the start of Testosterone levels rise at the start of Testosterone levels rise at the start of breeding season when birds are competing breeding season when birds are competing breeding season when birds are competing for mates, they're looking to spread for mates, they're looking to spread for mates, they're looking to spread their seed, they want as many their seed, they want as many their seed, they want as many opportunities as possible so they need opportunities as possible so they need opportunities as possible so they need status to try to find a partner. status to try to find a partner. status to try to find a partner. And then after mating has been And then after mating has been And then after mating has been accomplished, it's immunologically accomplished, it's immunologically accomplished, it's immunologically costly to maintain perpetually high costly to maintain perpetually high costly to maintain perpetually high levels of T, testosterone naturally levels of T, testosterone naturally levels of T, testosterone naturally decreases, and the reproductive strategy decreases, and the reproductive strategy decreases, and the reproductive strategy is shifting towards more nurturing. So is shifting towards more nurturing. So is shifting towards more nurturing. So instead of maximizing our numbers of instead of maximizing our numbers of instead of maximizing our numbers of babies that we can produce, we want to babies that we can produce, we want to babies that we can produce, we want to maximize the odds that any given baby is maximize the odds that any given baby is maximize the odds that any given baby is going to survive. And our hormones kind going to survive. And our hormones kind going to survive. And our hormones kind of follow suit. of follow suit. of follow suit. And you see it in primates, you see it And you see it in primates, you see it And you see it in primates, you see it in rodents as well as in humans. You see in rodents as well as in humans. You see in rodents as well as in humans. You see these natural shifts. these natural shifts. these natural shifts. >> What >> What >> What What are the behavior changes that What are the behavior changes that What are the behavior changes that happen in men happen in men happen in men based on their hormones? based on their hormones? based on their hormones? >> So, typically when testosterone >> So, typically when testosterone >> So, typically when testosterone decreases, it's serving a function decreases, it's serving a function decreases, it's serving a function whereby dads are getting whereby dads are getting whereby dads are getting more invested in the partner more invested in the partner more invested in the partner relationship. They are more interested, relationship. They are more interested, relationship. They are more interested, more motivated to maintain a stable pair more motivated to maintain a stable pair more motivated to maintain a stable pair bond, and they're less aggressive. So, a bond, and they're less aggressive. So, a bond, and they're less aggressive. So, a lot of the work in and rodents has lot of the work in and rodents has lot of the work in and rodents has looked at sort of territorial looked at sort of territorial looked at sort of territorial aggression. And, you know, when you see aggression. And, you know, when you see aggression. And, you know, when you see a new pup in the nest, do you want to a new pup in the nest, do you want to a new pup in the nest, do you want to kill them or do you want to care for kill them or do you want to care for kill them or do you want to care for them? And testosterone levels can sort them? And testosterone levels can sort them? And testosterone levels can sort of modulate where you end up along that of modulate where you end up along that of modulate where you end up along that continuum. continuum. continuum. So, we want in general, if anyone is So, we want in general, if anyone is So, we want in general, if anyone is spending a lot of time with infants, to spending a lot of time with infants, to spending a lot of time with infants, to be less motivated to kill and more be less motivated to kill and more be less motivated to kill and more motivated to care. motivated to care. motivated to care. >> Risk-taking behavior as well. >> Risk-taking behavior as well. >> Risk-taking behavior as well. >> Goes down. And you see that you you >> Goes down. And you see that you you >> Goes down. And you see that you you know, you you see actually in some ways know, you you see actually in some ways know, you you see actually in some ways health improvements. We we can talk health improvements. We we can talk health improvements. We we can talk about dad bod at some point, I'm sure, about dad bod at some point, I'm sure, about dad bod at some point, I'm sure, but you see some health improvements in but you see some health improvements in but you see some health improvements in terms of less risky driving, less likely terms of less risky driving, less likely terms of less risky driving, less likely to get into fights, lower levels of to get into fights, lower levels of to get into fights, lower levels of substance use, substance use, substance use, being more conscientious about doctor being more conscientious about doctor being more conscientious about doctor checkups. So, all of those behaviors checkups. So, all of those behaviors checkups. So, all of those behaviors that keep us alive and ready to provide that keep us alive and ready to provide that keep us alive and ready to provide for our offspring. for our offspring. for our offspring. >> Blame it on the testosterone. >> Blame it on the testosterone. >> Blame it on the testosterone. >> Shift, sure. >> Shift, sure. >> Shift, sure. >> Blame it on the testosterone. You know, >> Blame it on the testosterone. You know, >> Blame it on the testosterone. You know, one one of my favorite studies around one one of my favorite studies around one one of my favorite studies around risk-taking behavior and risk-taking behavior and risk-taking behavior and male and female relationships. male and female relationships. male and female relationships. Looking at studies of men crossing the Looking at studies of men crossing the Looking at studies of men crossing the road and the distance from them to the road and the distance from them to the road and the distance from them to the nearest car in the presence of women or nearest car in the presence of women or nearest car in the presence of women or without the presence of women? without the presence of women? without the presence of women? >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Dude, if there's a woman there, it's >> Dude, if there's a woman there, it's >> Dude, if there's a woman there, it's like three times closer. Like, dude, like three times closer. Like, dude, like three times closer. Like, dude, look at how hard I am. Harder than this look at how hard I am. Harder than this look at how hard I am. Harder than this car. car. car. >> [laughter] >> [laughter] >> [laughter] >> But >> But >> But >> doesn't end well at any time. >> doesn't end well at any time. >> doesn't end well at any time. >> typically in a fight between you and a >> typically in a fight between you and a >> typically in a fight between you and a car, you usually lose. However, car, you usually lose. However, car, you usually lose. However, the thing that's interesting that like the thing that's interesting that like the thing that's interesting that like we know that testosterone can change. If we know that testosterone can change. If we know that testosterone can change. If we had a ton of weapons on this table we had a ton of weapons on this table we had a ton of weapons on this table like axes and and spears and and guns like axes and and spears and and guns like axes and and spears and and guns and stuff. and stuff. and stuff. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> And me and the guys walked around and >> And me and the guys walked around and >> And me and the guys walked around and like picked them up and played with like picked them up and played with like picked them up and played with them, our testosterone would go up. them, our testosterone would go up. them, our testosterone would go up. >> Yeah, and I would be terrified. >> Yeah, and I would be terrified. >> Yeah, and I would be terrified. >> It's very >> It's very >> It's very That That happens after. That's what The That That happens after. That's what The That That happens after. That's what The way that we close the show out is by way that we close the show out is by way that we close the show out is by wielding weapons inside of this room. wielding weapons inside of this room. wielding weapons inside of this room. >> Yeah, remind me to get out of here >> Yeah, remind me to get out of here >> Yeah, remind me to get out of here first. first. first. >> For a second. And we're live action role >> For a second. And we're live action role >> For a second. And we're live action role playing in the Middle Ages. playing in the Middle Ages. playing in the Middle Ages. Um so, Um so, Um so, that's that's that's sense the fact that we can be so sense the fact that we can be so sense the fact that we can be so reactive as men. Then we talk about how reactive as men. Then we talk about how reactive as men. Then we talk about how hormonal women are. And yes, but hormonal women are. And yes, but hormonal women are. And yes, but reliably, men much more unreliable. reliably, men much more unreliable. reliably, men much more unreliable. Similarly, a lot of hormonal changes, Similarly, a lot of hormonal changes, Similarly, a lot of hormonal changes, but they don't happen on the same sort but they don't happen on the same sort but they don't happen on the same sort of lunar schedule. Um but what that must of lunar schedule. Um but what that must of lunar schedule. Um but what that must mean, mean, mean, I don't know whether this will be the I don't know whether this will be the I don't know whether this will be the primary driver cuz a lot of it's like primary driver cuz a lot of it's like primary driver cuz a lot of it's like there's a girl there and I'm just going there's a girl there and I'm just going there's a girl there and I'm just going to show how how hard I am and how how to show how how hard I am and how how to show how how hard I am and how how masculine and the risk-taking. masculine and the risk-taking. masculine and the risk-taking. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> But also, there'll probably be a bit of >> But also, there'll probably be a bit of >> But also, there'll probably be a bit of an increase in testosterone and that an increase in testosterone and that an increase in testosterone and that might push it a little bit more. might push it a little bit more. might push it a little bit more. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> And the same thing will be presumably >> And the same thing will be presumably >> And the same thing will be presumably happening here as well that there's a happening here as well that there's a happening here as well that there's a relational component. There's the sort relational component. There's the sort relational component. There's the sort of top-down baby must be here for baby. of top-down baby must be here for baby. of top-down baby must be here for baby. Must not drive recklessly or text whilst Must not drive recklessly or text whilst Must not drive recklessly or text whilst drive etc. But also, there is this sort drive etc. But also, there is this sort drive etc. But also, there is this sort of bottom-up of bottom-up of bottom-up environment that's being created which environment that's being created which environment that's being created which encourages us to behave in that way, encourages us to behave in that way, encourages us to behave in that way, too. too. too. >> Exactly. Biology and culture work >> Exactly. Biology and culture work >> Exactly. Biology and culture work together as they do in so many together as they do in so many together as they do in so many ways in parenthood. ways in parenthood. ways in parenthood. And And yeah, I think it's really And And yeah, I think it's really And And yeah, I think it's really interesting the extent to which our interesting the extent to which our interesting the extent to which our culture is kind of in flux between culture is kind of in flux between culture is kind of in flux between different models of fatherhood. different models of fatherhood. different models of fatherhood. >> Mhm. >> Mhm. >> Mhm. >> And so, you know, are are we low T dads >> And so, you know, are are we low T dads >> And so, you know, are are we low T dads or high T dads? But there's plenty of or high T dads? But there's plenty of or high T dads? But there's plenty of work suggesting that, you know, in work suggesting that, you know, in work suggesting that, you know, in athletic competition, in um other athletic competition, in um other athletic competition, in um other opportunities for men to raise their opportunities for men to raise their opportunities for men to raise their status, you see changes in testosterone. status, you see changes in testosterone. status, you see changes in testosterone. So, testosterone, you know, I think So, testosterone, you know, I think So, testosterone, you know, I think we can talk about testosterone we can talk about testosterone we can talk about testosterone supplementation and what that means for supplementation and what that means for supplementation and what that means for men who want to be dads. I think to me men who want to be dads. I think to me men who want to be dads. I think to me what is adaptive about testosterone, as what is adaptive about testosterone, as what is adaptive about testosterone, as with any other hormone, is that it's with any other hormone, is that it's with any other hormone, is that it's responsive to context. And we want to be responsive to context. And we want to be responsive to context. And we want to be flexible because we want to have a flexible because we want to have a flexible because we want to have a biology that sets us up to achieve our biology that sets us up to achieve our biology that sets us up to achieve our goals. goals. goals. >> You're saying that if you were to be >> You're saying that if you were to be >> You're saying that if you were to be taking testosterone enhancement whilst taking testosterone enhancement whilst taking testosterone enhancement whilst becoming a father, you think that you're becoming a father, you think that you're becoming a father, you think that you're able to outwit biology's able to outwit biology's able to outwit biology's uh uh uh well-proven environment that it's trying well-proven environment that it's trying well-proven environment that it's trying to create inside of you, and you're just to create inside of you, and you're just to create inside of you, and you're just plowing through it by injecting yourself plowing through it by injecting yourself plowing through it by injecting yourself with T. with T. with T. >> I think that's the fear. That's the >> I think that's the fear. That's the >> I think that's the fear. That's the risk, and and anecdotally, I hear from risk, and and anecdotally, I hear from risk, and and anecdotally, I hear from moms who say, "Yeah, my husband's been moms who say, "Yeah, my husband's been moms who say, "Yeah, my husband's been taking T, and he's has no patience with taking T, and he's has no patience with taking T, and he's has no patience with the baby." Who knows? We need better, the baby." Who knows? We need better, the baby." Who knows? We need better, more rigorous studies to see if that's more rigorous studies to see if that's more rigorous studies to see if that's actually true. actually true. actually true. >> Yeah, but he's jacked. >> Yeah, but he's jacked. >> Yeah, but he's jacked. >> But exactly. [laughter] >> But exactly. [laughter] >> But exactly. [laughter] So, there's a trade-off. So, there's a trade-off. So, there's a trade-off. >> growing up with a jacked dad. Come on. >> growing up with a jacked dad. Come on. >> growing up with a jacked dad. Come on. >> in some context, that could be really >> in some context, that could be really >> in some context, that could be really good. Like if you have to fight your way good. Like if you have to fight your way good. Like if you have to fight your way out of a cage to get a leg of lamb for out of a cage to get a leg of lamb for out of a cage to get a leg of lamb for your kid, then you probably want high your kid, then you probably want high your kid, then you probably want high testosterone in early parenthood. But testosterone in early parenthood. But testosterone in early parenthood. But that might not serve the style of that might not serve the style of that might not serve the style of fatherhood that is more desired. fatherhood that is more desired. fatherhood that is more desired. >> Presumably as well, if that environment >> Presumably as well, if that environment >> Presumably as well, if that environment was the one that you were in, your body was the one that you were in, your body was the one that you were in, your body would detect it and go, "Hey, that's would detect it and go, "Hey, that's would detect it and go, "Hey, that's some more testosterone for you." As some more testosterone for you." As some more testosterone for you." As opposed to you going, "No, shut up. opposed to you going, "No, shut up. opposed to you going, "No, shut up. 1,000 ng/dL is absolutely fine." Like 1,000 ng/dL is absolutely fine." Like 1,000 ng/dL is absolutely fine." Like >> Yeah, well, in riskier >> Yeah, well, in riskier >> Yeah, well, in riskier >> Believing that you do you know better >> Believing that you do you know better >> Believing that you do you know better than your body does. than your body does. than your body does. >> Yeah, when we're in a riskier, >> Yeah, when we're in a riskier, >> Yeah, when we're in a riskier, competitive environment, men want higher competitive environment, men want higher competitive environment, men want higher testosterone. That's going to serve testosterone. That's going to serve testosterone. That's going to serve their goals. It's not always going to their goals. It's not always going to their goals. It's not always going to serve their goals when they're in a serve their goals when they're in a serve their goals when they're in a parenting environment. And so, you know, parenting environment. And so, you know, parenting environment. And so, you know, I think the thing about supplementation I think the thing about supplementation I think the thing about supplementation is we sort of have this idea that is we sort of have this idea that is we sort of have this idea that manliness is about maintaining manliness is about maintaining manliness is about maintaining perpetually high T. I think actually perpetually high T. I think actually perpetually high T. I think actually positive masculinity is more about positive masculinity is more about positive masculinity is more about adaptability, being flexible, and adaptability, being flexible, and adaptability, being flexible, and showing up in the way that you need to showing up in the way that you need to showing up in the way that you need to for changing situations. for changing situations. for changing situations. >> Well, what a >> Well, what a >> Well, what a horrendous own goal it would be if you horrendous own goal it would be if you horrendous own goal it would be if you decided to keep your testosterone high decided to keep your testosterone high decided to keep your testosterone high in an attempt to show your masculinity in an attempt to show your masculinity in an attempt to show your masculinity and in the process ended your lineage. and in the process ended your lineage. and in the process ended your lineage. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Like well done, dude. Like you blew >> Like well done, dude. Like you blew >> Like well done, dude. Like you blew through all of the warning signs that through all of the warning signs that through all of the warning signs that you should have been tuned down from. you should have been tuned down from. you should have been tuned down from. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> So, yeah, I guess testosterone drops >> So, yeah, I guess testosterone drops >> So, yeah, I guess testosterone drops when men become engaged fathers, right? when men become engaged fathers, right? when men become engaged fathers, right? So, it's some men will hear that and So, it's some men will hear that and So, it's some men will hear that and think, "Okay, so fatherhood makes you think, "Okay, so fatherhood makes you think, "Okay, so fatherhood makes you less of a man." less of a man." less of a man." >> Right. >> Right. >> Right. >> Do you think that the fear of losing >> Do you think that the fear of losing >> Do you think that the fear of losing masculinity by caregiving is actually masculinity by caregiving is actually masculinity by caregiving is actually driving avoidant fatherhood? In some driving avoidant fatherhood? In some driving avoidant fatherhood? In some ways, maybe. ways, maybe. ways, maybe. >> This was something I worried about when >> This was something I worried about when >> This was something I worried about when writing this book and trying to writing this book and trying to writing this book and trying to summarize the science around fatherhood summarize the science around fatherhood summarize the science around fatherhood is that the subtitle I joked for a while is that the subtitle I joked for a while is that the subtitle I joked for a while would be "Fatherhood gives you a smaller would be "Fatherhood gives you a smaller would be "Fatherhood gives you a smaller brain, makes you sleepier, sadder, brain, makes you sleepier, sadder, brain, makes you sleepier, sadder, fatter, and have lower testosterone, but fatter, and have lower testosterone, but fatter, and have lower testosterone, but it's really good." it's really good." it's really good." >> Jared. >> Jared. >> Jared. >> It'll give you >> It'll give you >> It'll give you So, that I don't think that would That So, that I don't think that would That So, that I don't think that would That wouldn't sell very many books. And we've wouldn't sell very many books. And we've wouldn't sell very many books. And we've talked about some of the benefits of talked about some of the benefits of talked about some of the benefits of fatherhood, like an increased sense of fatherhood, like an increased sense of fatherhood, like an increased sense of meaning and purpose, and neuroprotection meaning and purpose, and neuroprotection meaning and purpose, and neuroprotection in late life. I would argue that being a in late life. I would argue that being a in late life. I would argue that being a good dad is one of the most manly things good dad is one of the most manly things good dad is one of the most manly things you can do. You're literally rearing the you can do. You're literally rearing the you can do. You're literally rearing the next generation. You're guiding them. next generation. You're guiding them. next generation. You're guiding them. You're protecting them. You're inspiring You're protecting them. You're inspiring You're protecting them. You're inspiring them. You're teaching them. So, when you them. You're teaching them. So, when you them. You're teaching them. So, when you think about what is masculinity for, think about what is masculinity for, think about what is masculinity for, I would argue that in some ways it's for I would argue that in some ways it's for I would argue that in some ways it's for your ability to be a good dad. So, I your ability to be a good dad. So, I your ability to be a good dad. So, I think we confuse like just having a think we confuse like just having a think we confuse like just having a certain hormone level equals certain hormone level equals certain hormone level equals masculinity. masculinity. masculinity. And I would counter argue it's more And I would counter argue it's more And I would counter argue it's more about what is your social role and how about what is your social role and how about what is your social role and how are you showing up to do the things that are you showing up to do the things that are you showing up to do the things that are needed of you. are needed of you. are needed of you. >> And what is your definition of success? >> And what is your definition of success? >> And what is your definition of success? >> Exactly. >> Exactly. >> Exactly. >> Especially this is a more I'm going to >> Especially this is a more I'm going to >> Especially this is a more I'm going to put put put It's a It's a more controversial area to It's a It's a more controversial area to It's a It's a more controversial area to talk about, but if you were to say for talk about, but if you were to say for talk about, but if you were to say for women women women what is your definition of success? I what is your definition of success? I what is your definition of success? I think mum-brain is seen as quite a big think mum-brain is seen as quite a big think mum-brain is seen as quite a big loss by a lot of women. Well, I'm loss by a lot of women. Well, I'm loss by a lot of women. Well, I'm executively less competent, my ability executively less competent, my ability executively less competent, my ability to remember maybe I was a to remember maybe I was a to remember maybe I was a an assistant or a teacher or or a an assistant or a teacher or or a an assistant or a teacher or or a someone who worked in marketing or someone who worked in marketing or someone who worked in marketing or whatever and I can't hold on to the whatever and I can't hold on to the whatever and I can't hold on to the ideas in the way that I used to. You ideas in the way that I used to. You ideas in the way that I used to. You say, "Well, that looks like a massive say, "Well, that looks like a massive say, "Well, that looks like a massive loss in all of the ways that society loss in all of the ways that society loss in all of the ways that society says that a woman should be successful says that a woman should be successful says that a woman should be successful >> Mhm. >> Mhm. >> Mhm. >> apart from the one that's most important >> apart from the one that's most important >> apart from the one that's most important which is being a good mom. which is being a good mom. which is being a good mom. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> And it's all about definition of >> And it's all about definition of >> And it's all about definition of success. And if you're in a meritocratic success. And if you're in a meritocratic success. And if you're in a meritocratic capitalist world that says your ability capitalist world that says your ability capitalist world that says your ability to produce economically and to rise up to produce economically and to rise up to produce economically and to rise up through the ladder of status and through the ladder of status and through the ladder of status and prestige and socio-economic hierarchy, prestige and socio-economic hierarchy, prestige and socio-economic hierarchy, that's your primary goal. That's exactly that's your primary goal. That's exactly that's your primary goal. That's exactly what you bring to the world. what you bring to the world. what you bring to the world. Yeah, that looks like a loss. Apart from Yeah, that looks like a loss. Apart from Yeah, that looks like a loss. Apart from the fact that your kid is happier and the fact that your kid is happier and the fact that your kid is happier and you're more in tune with them and more you're more in tune with them and more you're more in tune with them and more in love with them and in love with them and in love with them and So again, it's the same thing as the as So again, it's the same thing as the as So again, it's the same thing as the as the dad masculinity conversation. I just the dad masculinity conversation. I just the dad masculinity conversation. I just think it's a it's a bit more of a think it's a it's a bit more of a think it's a it's a bit more of a minefield. minefield. minefield. >> No, I think you're right. I think we we >> No, I think you're right. I think we we >> No, I think you're right. I think we we undervalue care. undervalue care. undervalue care. And we don't prioritize it as a public And we don't prioritize it as a public And we don't prioritize it as a public social good, which it certainly is. And social good, which it certainly is. And social good, which it certainly is. And I think as a result we have this whole I think as a result we have this whole I think as a result we have this whole discourse around bouncing back after discourse around bouncing back after discourse around bouncing back after baby. You know, how quickly can you get baby. You know, how quickly can you get baby. You know, how quickly can you get your pre-baby body back? How quickly can your pre-baby body back? How quickly can your pre-baby body back? How quickly can you get your pre-baby brain back? And in you get your pre-baby brain back? And in you get your pre-baby brain back? And in fact, it's supposed to be fact, it's supposed to be fact, it's supposed to be transformative. You have a whole new transformative. You have a whole new transformative. You have a whole new role to play. And I think we want to role to play. And I think we want to role to play. And I think we want to celebrate that. celebrate that. celebrate that. >> kind of denial of the >> kind of denial of the >> kind of denial of the preciousness of parenthood. preciousness of parenthood. preciousness of parenthood. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> It's a real middle finger to that to go, >> It's a real middle finger to that to go, >> It's a real middle finger to that to go, I had this I had this I had this inconvenience for a while. I was kind of inconvenience for a while. I was kind of inconvenience for a while. I was kind of afflicted with motherhood or or afflicted with motherhood or or afflicted with motherhood or or fatherhood, and my goal is to get back fatherhood, and my goal is to get back fatherhood, and my goal is to get back to what I was before as opposed to to what I was before as opposed to to what I was before as opposed to become something new. become something new. become something new. >> Yeah, exactly. And I will say as a >> Yeah, exactly. And I will say as a >> Yeah, exactly. And I will say as a parent of teens, I don't want to go back parent of teens, I don't want to go back parent of teens, I don't want to go back to my pre-baby self cuz I was clueless. to my pre-baby self cuz I was clueless. to my pre-baby self cuz I was clueless. I think you learn a lot and figure a lot I think you learn a lot and figure a lot I think you learn a lot and figure a lot of things out. of things out. of things out. >> use that as my excuse. >> use that as my excuse. >> use that as my excuse. >> As a parent. >> As a parent. >> As a parent. >> As a as a non as a non-parent, my >> As a as a non as a non-parent, my >> As a as a non as a non-parent, my cluelessness is exclusively because of cluelessness is exclusively because of cluelessness is exclusively because of my lack of child. my lack of child. my lack of child. >> That's right. >> That's right. >> That's right. >> Does the dad brain and the mom brain, >> Does the dad brain and the mom brain, >> Does the dad brain and the mom brain, does that happen again and again? Does does that happen again and again? Does does that happen again and again? Does it re-kickstart? Do you regrow? How does it re-kickstart? Do you regrow? How does it re-kickstart? Do you regrow? How does how do multiple children play into this? how do multiple children play into this? how do multiple children play into this? >> So, there's some really interesting new >> So, there's some really interesting new >> So, there's some really interesting new research about this, and I should research about this, and I should research about this, and I should preface by saying the research preface by saying the research preface by saying the research literature is really scant. Part of why literature is really scant. Part of why literature is really scant. Part of why I wrote the book is cuz I want more I wrote the book is cuz I want more I wrote the book is cuz I want more studies to get funded and more studies studies to get funded and more studies studies to get funded and more studies to get done in both dads and moms. So, to get done in both dads and moms. So, to get done in both dads and moms. So, there's one study that I know of that there's one study that I know of that there's one study that I know of that looks at what happens to the brain when looks at what happens to the brain when looks at what happens to the brain when you have a second kid. It was done in you have a second kid. It was done in you have a second kid. It was done in moms. It was done in the Netherlands. moms. It was done in the Netherlands. moms. It was done in the Netherlands. And what happens is the brain shrinks And what happens is the brain shrinks And what happens is the brain shrinks again, but it actually shrinks in some again, but it actually shrinks in some again, but it actually shrinks in some different ways and in some different different ways and in some different different ways and in some different places. So, there's some rebound. So, we places. So, there's some rebound. So, we places. So, there's some rebound. So, we actually think maternal brain change, actually think maternal brain change, actually think maternal brain change, and I'm guessing paternal brain change and I'm guessing paternal brain change and I'm guessing paternal brain change too when we have more longitudinal data too when we have more longitudinal data too when we have more longitudinal data points, is actually U-shaped. So, you points, is actually U-shaped. So, you points, is actually U-shaped. So, you lose volume and then you regain some lose volume and then you regain some lose volume and then you regain some volume. volume. volume. >> Which is adaptive, exactly. Cuz you >> Which is adaptive, exactly. Cuz you >> Which is adaptive, exactly. Cuz you don't necessarily want to end up with a don't necessarily want to end up with a don't necessarily want to end up with a much smaller brain after having had many much smaller brain after having had many much smaller brain after having had many more kids. So, you get some rebound, more kids. So, you get some rebound, more kids. So, you get some rebound, >> 10 kids and you can't function. The kids >> 10 kids and you can't function. The kids >> 10 kids and you can't function. The kids are looking after you. are looking after you. are looking after you. >> Yeah, you're walking around like the guy >> Yeah, you're walking around like the guy >> Yeah, you're walking around like the guy in Beetlejuice with the tiny shrunken in Beetlejuice with the tiny shrunken in Beetlejuice with the tiny shrunken head, right? Um yeah, you don't want head, right? Um yeah, you don't want head, right? Um yeah, you don't want that to happen, but you end up actually that to happen, but you end up actually that to happen, but you end up actually where you lose gray matter volume with a where you lose gray matter volume with a where you lose gray matter volume with a second pregnancy is actually in areas second pregnancy is actually in areas second pregnancy is actually in areas that are tied more to that are tied more to that are tied more to deploying deploying deploying uh let's see, what's a good way to say uh let's see, what's a good way to say uh let's see, what's a good way to say this? Like managing multiple inputs. So this? Like managing multiple inputs. So this? Like managing multiple inputs. So those are areas that if you just those are areas that if you just those are areas that if you just streamline and tune them, they're streamline and tune them, they're streamline and tune them, they're actually salient for taking care of actually salient for taking care of actually salient for taking care of multiple kids. So it's kind of like task multiple kids. So it's kind of like task multiple kids. So it's kind of like task switching switching switching >> Okay, yeah, yeah, yeah. >> Okay, yeah, yeah, yeah. >> Okay, yeah, yeah, yeah. >> and being oriented cognitively to >> and being oriented cognitively to >> and being oriented cognitively to variable demands. Those are the places variable demands. Those are the places variable demands. Those are the places where you see that sharpening of where you see that sharpening of where you see that sharpening of functioning functioning functioning in second-time moms. in second-time moms. in second-time moms. >> know I'd love to see I'd love to see a >> know I'd love to see I'd love to see a >> know I'd love to see I'd love to see a comparison between that and mothers who comparison between that and mothers who comparison between that and mothers who have twins or triplets. Yeah. have twins or triplets. Yeah. have twins or triplets. Yeah. >> I don't know if any >> I don't know if any >> I don't know if any >> cool? >> cool? >> cool? >> Yes, and the studies unfortunately >> Yes, and the studies unfortunately >> Yes, and the studies unfortunately exclude twin and triplet moms because exclude twin and triplet moms because exclude twin and triplet moms because they're going to add too much they're going to add too much they're going to add too much complexity. complexity. complexity. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> But it just seems >> But it just seems >> But it just seems >> a study specifically on them >> a study specifically on them >> a study specifically on them >> It's a really interesting paradigm, >> It's a really interesting paradigm, >> It's a really interesting paradigm, right? Cuz you kind of get double the right? Cuz you kind of get double the right? Cuz you kind of get double the dose of parenting experience and you get dose of parenting experience and you get dose of parenting experience and you get more parenting hormones, too. more parenting hormones, too. more parenting hormones, too. >> you have Yeah, more time on skin? I mean >> you have Yeah, more time on skin? I mean >> you have Yeah, more time on skin? I mean both dad and mom will be really at the both dad and mom will be really at the both dad and mom will be really at the upper limit of that 1 to 2.5% range. But upper limit of that 1 to 2.5% range. But upper limit of that 1 to 2.5% range. But also I wonder if you basically speedrun also I wonder if you basically speedrun also I wonder if you basically speedrun level one and go straight to level two level one and go straight to level two level one and go straight to level two as mom where you've got the the as mom where you've got the the as mom where you've got the the multitasking like baby juggling skill. multitasking like baby juggling skill. multitasking like baby juggling skill. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Um >> Um >> Um >> You might advance to that second-time >> You might advance to that second-time >> You might advance to that second-time brain a little faster. brain a little faster. brain a little faster. >> Yeah, so intense. >> Yeah, so intense. >> Yeah, so intense. >> guess is also with twins and triplets, >> guess is also with twins and triplets, >> guess is also with twins and triplets, dad gets more involved. So again, you're dad gets more involved. So again, you're dad gets more involved. So again, you're talking about tuning the dial up that talking about tuning the dial up that talking about tuning the dial up that turns fatherhood behavior on. When you turns fatherhood behavior on. When you turns fatherhood behavior on. When you have multiples, you need dad more have multiples, you need dad more have multiples, you need dad more because you need more help to parent. because you need more help to parent. because you need more help to parent. >> basically had a baby with leverage. >> basically had a baby with leverage. >> basically had a baby with leverage. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> All right, you invested you invested at >> All right, you invested you invested at >> All right, you invested you invested at like two or three X on the starting like two or three X on the starting like two or three X on the starting capital in the beginning. capital in the beginning. capital in the beginning. >> That's right. >> That's right. >> That's right. >> I read about the daughter effect. Is >> I read about the daughter effect. Is >> I read about the daughter effect. Is that real? that real? that real? >> Which Say Say what you mean by it. >> Which Say Say what you mean by it. >> Which Say Say what you mean by it. >> When >> When >> When fathers have daughters, their behavior fathers have daughters, their behavior fathers have daughters, their behavior changes in unique ways that wouldn't changes in unique ways that wouldn't changes in unique ways that wouldn't have done with a son. have done with a son. have done with a son. >> Yeah, so I'm glad you asked that because >> Yeah, so I'm glad you asked that because >> Yeah, so I'm glad you asked that because my lab literally just wrote a paper over my lab literally just wrote a paper over my lab literally just wrote a paper over the weekend. We do these paper-in-a-day the weekend. We do these paper-in-a-day the weekend. We do these paper-in-a-day retreats where we all get together and retreats where we all get together and retreats where we all get together and we write chunks of a paper together and we write chunks of a paper together and we write chunks of a paper together and we looked at how men's behavior and we looked at how men's behavior and we looked at how men's behavior and well-being and hormones change when they well-being and hormones change when they well-being and hormones change when they have either a son or a daughter. So, we have either a son or a daughter. So, we have either a son or a daughter. So, we found that when men have daughters, and found that when men have daughters, and found that when men have daughters, and this is from our longitudinal sample, this is from our longitudinal sample, this is from our longitudinal sample, they show more of a drop in testosterone they show more of a drop in testosterone they show more of a drop in testosterone across the transition to that across the transition to that across the transition to that parenthood. parenthood. parenthood. >> Mhm. >> Mhm. >> Mhm. >> And they also spend less time caring for >> And they also spend less time caring for >> And they also spend less time caring for their babies, and they report more their babies, and they report more their babies, and they report more parenting stress and worse bonding. So, parenting stress and worse bonding. So, parenting stress and worse bonding. So, it's kind of bad news for girls, it's kind of bad news for girls, it's kind of bad news for girls, actually. Uh and we need to figure out actually. Uh and we need to figure out actually. Uh and we need to figure out what modulates that and you know, how to what modulates that and you know, how to what modulates that and you know, how to offset it. But, it suggests that when offset it. But, it suggests that when offset it. But, it suggests that when men are expecting girls, they might be men are expecting girls, they might be men are expecting girls, they might be in need of some additional coaching and in need of some additional coaching and in need of some additional coaching and preparation to figure out how they can preparation to figure out how they can preparation to figure out how they can show up as effective parents. show up as effective parents. show up as effective parents. >> Does the sex of the baby change how the >> Does the sex of the baby change how the >> Does the sex of the baby change how the brain adapts in the other direction brain adapts in the other direction brain adapts in the other direction then? then? then? >> So, we don't know because there haven't >> So, we don't know because there haven't >> So, we don't know because there haven't been enough studies of this. I've looked been enough studies of this. I've looked been enough studies of this. I've looked at this a little bit in our data and at this a little bit in our data and at this a little bit in our data and >> It'd be pretty easy to do, right? Was it >> It'd be pretty easy to do, right? Was it >> It'd be pretty easy to do, right? Was it boy, was it girl? Two hair groups. boy, was it girl? Two hair groups. boy, was it girl? Two hair groups. >> But, you're cutting your sample in half. >> But, you're cutting your sample in half. >> But, you're cutting your sample in half. So, if you already have an underpowered So, if you already have an underpowered So, if you already have an underpowered sample, then you know, you're losing sample, then you know, you're losing sample, then you know, you're losing your ability to pick up on effects. your ability to pick up on effects. your ability to pick up on effects. >> Put the hats on and just throw some some >> Put the hats on and just throw some some >> Put the hats on and just throw some some hypotheses out there. It doesn't matter. hypotheses out there. It doesn't matter. hypotheses out there. It doesn't matter. It's okay. Yeah, yeah. It's okay. Yeah, yeah. It's okay. Yeah, yeah. >> Yeah. I um I know of a a little bit of >> Yeah. I um I know of a a little bit of >> Yeah. I um I know of a a little bit of work suggesting that it shifts uh work suggesting that it shifts uh work suggesting that it shifts uh certain brain responses. Like I think um certain brain responses. Like I think um certain brain responses. Like I think um there was a study Actually, it was done there was a study Actually, it was done there was a study Actually, it was done at Emory in Atlanta that found that at Emory in Atlanta that found that at Emory in Atlanta that found that uh the the brain was more primed to uh the the brain was more primed to uh the the brain was more primed to happy facial expressions from girls and happy facial expressions from girls and happy facial expressions from girls and distressed expressions from boys. And distressed expressions from boys. And distressed expressions from boys. And so, there were some different patterns so, there were some different patterns so, there were some different patterns of brain responses. But, the of brain responses. But, the of brain responses. But, the literature's tiny. We don't know a lot literature's tiny. We don't know a lot literature's tiny. We don't know a lot about those kind of sex-specific effects about those kind of sex-specific effects about those kind of sex-specific effects in the brain. in the brain. in the brain. >> In other news, Shopify powers 10% of all >> In other news, Shopify powers 10% of all >> In other news, Shopify powers 10% of all e-commerce companies in the US. They are e-commerce companies in the US. They are e-commerce companies in the US. They are the driving force behind Gymshark and the driving force behind Gymshark and the driving force behind Gymshark and Skims and Alo and Nutrasonic, which is Skims and Alo and Nutrasonic, which is Skims and Alo and Nutrasonic, which is why I partnered with them because when why I partnered with them because when why I partnered with them because when it comes to converting browsers into it comes to converting browsers into it comes to converting browsers into buyers, they are best in class. Their buyers, they are best in class. Their buyers, they are best in class. Their checkout is 36% better on average checkout is 36% better on average checkout is 36% better on average compared to other leading commerce compared to other leading commerce compared to other leading commerce platforms, and with Shop Pay, you can platforms, and with Shop Pay, you can platforms, and with Shop Pay, you can boost conversions up to 50%. Basically, boost conversions up to 50%. Basically, boost conversions up to 50%. Basically, you didn't get into business to learn you didn't get into business to learn you didn't get into business to learn how to code or build a website or deal how to code or build a website or deal how to code or build a website or deal with the inventory stuff on the with the inventory stuff on the with the inventory stuff on the back end. You just want to get down to back end. You just want to get down to back end. You just want to get down to creating and promoting an awesome creating and promoting an awesome creating and promoting an awesome product, and Shopify takes all of the product, and Shopify takes all of the product, and Shopify takes all of the mess off your hands and allows you to mess off your hands and allows you to mess off your hands and allows you to focus on the job you actually came here focus on the job you actually came here focus on the job you actually came here to do, designing and selling the thing to do, designing and selling the thing to do, designing and selling the thing that you love. So, upgrade your business that you love. So, upgrade your business that you love. So, upgrade your business and get the same checkout that we use and get the same checkout that we use and get the same checkout that we use with Nootropic with Shopify. Right now, with Nootropic with Shopify. Right now, with Nootropic with Shopify. Right now, you can sign up for a $1 per month trial you can sign up for a $1 per month trial you can sign up for a $1 per month trial period by going to the link in the period by going to the link in the period by going to the link in the description below or heading to description below or heading to description below or heading to shopify.com/modernwisdom, shopify.com/modernwisdom, shopify.com/modernwisdom, all lowercase. That's all lowercase. That's all lowercase. That's shopify.com/modernwisdom. shopify.com/modernwisdom. shopify.com/modernwisdom. >> Do we think the >> Do we think the >> Do we think the uh uh uh increase reduction of testosterone increase reduction of testosterone increase reduction of testosterone around girls is because rough and tumble around girls is because rough and tumble around girls is because rough and tumble play, more protection needed for child? play, more protection needed for child? play, more protection needed for child? But, it's interesting, right? Because But, it's interesting, right? Because But, it's interesting, right? Because you would also assume that you would also assume that you would also assume that the the the small boy would become physically small boy would become physically small boy would become physically stronger sooner as well. So, more stronger sooner as well. So, more stronger sooner as well. So, more protection from the outside world might protection from the outside world might protection from the outside world might require more testosterone, but less risk require more testosterone, but less risk require more testosterone, but less risk taking and less aggression toward the taking and less aggression toward the taking and less aggression toward the inside world requires less testosterone. inside world requires less testosterone. inside world requires less testosterone. So, there's a strange balance that's So, there's a strange balance that's So, there's a strange balance that's going on. Do you understand what I'm going on. Do you understand what I'm going on. Do you understand what I'm >> Yeah. Yeah, I think that's an >> Yeah. Yeah, I think that's an >> Yeah. Yeah, I think that's an interesting hunch. I mean, I think our interesting hunch. I mean, I think our interesting hunch. I mean, I think our time course was just from mid-pregnancy time course was just from mid-pregnancy time course was just from mid-pregnancy to the first 6 months. So, we didn't to the first 6 months. So, we didn't to the first 6 months. So, we didn't really have an uh you know, the babies really have an uh you know, the babies really have an uh you know, the babies aren't even really aren't even really aren't even really They're not even really They're not even really They're not even really Thank you. From your lips to God's ears, Thank you. From your lips to God's ears, Thank you. From your lips to God's ears, right? Give us more grants. We'll study right? Give us more grants. We'll study right? Give us more grants. We'll study this longer. We're actually doing a this longer. We're actually doing a this longer. We're actually doing a 7-year follow-up right now. So, we'll 7-year follow-up right now. So, we'll 7-year follow-up right now. So, we'll see what happens when the kids are see what happens when the kids are see what happens when the kids are hitting first and second grade. We're hitting first and second grade. We're hitting first and second grade. We're collecting that data as we speak. collecting that data as we speak. collecting that data as we speak. >> Sweet. >> Sweet. >> Sweet. >> But, our hunch is exactly what you said >> But, our hunch is exactly what you said >> But, our hunch is exactly what you said first, which is that we think that dads first, which is that we think that dads first, which is that we think that dads might behaviorally be interacting with might behaviorally be interacting with might behaviorally be interacting with new babies differently depending on new babies differently depending on new babies differently depending on whether they're a boy or a girl. And whether they're a boy or a girl. And whether they're a boy or a girl. And there's evidence that even before babies there's evidence that even before babies there's evidence that even before babies are born, if you ask parents, "What are are born, if you ask parents, "What are are born, if you ask parents, "What are the traits of your new child?" They are the traits of your new child?" They are the traits of your new child?" They are shaped by knowing the sex of the baby. shaped by knowing the sex of the baby. shaped by knowing the sex of the baby. So, new parents tend to describe a baby So, new parents tend to describe a baby So, new parents tend to describe a baby girl as being more delicate, girl as being more delicate, girl as being more delicate, more vulnerable. They might Yeah, sweet, more vulnerable. They might Yeah, sweet, more vulnerable. They might Yeah, sweet, soft. They might describe a baby boy as soft. They might describe a baby boy as soft. They might describe a baby boy as rambunctious or mischievous or tough and rambunctious or mischievous or tough and rambunctious or mischievous or tough and strong. And so, it may be that dads are strong. And so, it may be that dads are strong. And so, it may be that dads are getting more active and are playing with getting more active and are playing with getting more active and are playing with girls in a way that's more about girls in a way that's more about girls in a way that's more about cuddling and nurturing and are playing cuddling and nurturing and are playing cuddling and nurturing and are playing with boys in a way that's more about with boys in a way that's more about with boys in a way that's more about playing and activating. And we know that playing and activating. And we know that playing and activating. And we know that in fact, dads do have these kind of in fact, dads do have these kind of in fact, dads do have these kind of signature styles of playing with kids. signature styles of playing with kids. signature styles of playing with kids. They do tend to engage in more of what's They do tend to engage in more of what's They do tend to engage in more of what's called proprioceptive touch, which is called proprioceptive touch, which is called proprioceptive touch, which is like picking babies up, moving them like picking babies up, moving them like picking babies up, moving them around in space, like really active, around in space, like really active, around in space, like really active, exploratory, kind of boundary-pushing exploratory, kind of boundary-pushing exploratory, kind of boundary-pushing play. And it may just be that dads are play. And it may just be that dads are play. And it may just be that dads are doing more of that when they've got a doing more of that when they've got a doing more of that when they've got a baby boy and that is why their baby boy and that is why their baby boy and that is why their testosterone isn't falling in exactly testosterone isn't falling in exactly testosterone isn't falling in exactly the same way. the same way. the same way. >> Also, that the behavior of the boys and >> Also, that the behavior of the boys and >> Also, that the behavior of the boys and the girls will be the girls will be the girls will be The boy is more likely to want to play The boy is more likely to want to play The boy is more likely to want to play with trucks, linear objects, etc. And with trucks, linear objects, etc. And with trucks, linear objects, etc. And the girl is more likely to want to do the girl is more likely to want to do the girl is more likely to want to do the caregiving stuff. the caregiving stuff. the caregiving stuff. >> Although again, these are 6-month-old >> Although again, these are 6-month-old >> Although again, these are 6-month-old babies, so they can't even pick up a babies, so they can't even pick up a babies, so they can't even pick up a truck, let alone you truck, let alone you truck, let alone you >> was thinking I was thinking more about >> was thinking I was thinking more about >> was thinking I was thinking more about when you get to sort of 2, 3, 4. I had a when you get to sort of 2, 3, 4. I had a when you get to sort of 2, 3, 4. I had a Joyce Benenson on the show. She's just Joyce Benenson on the show. She's just Joyce Benenson on the show. She's just the best and uh she was saying the best and uh she was saying the best and uh she was saying she looked at the she looked at the she looked at the playground of kindergarteners playground of kindergarteners playground of kindergarteners like at 3, 4 years old and you know, like at 3, 4 years old and you know, like at 3, 4 years old and you know, there's not been a massive amount of there's not been a massive amount of there's not been a massive amount of time to socialize you into your gender time to socialize you into your gender time to socialize you into your gender role already and role already and role already and all of the girls were playing a game all of the girls were playing a game all of the girls were playing a game where they had to keep something alive where they had to keep something alive where they had to keep something alive and all of the boys were playing a game and all of the boys were playing a game and all of the boys were playing a game where they had to fight something in a where they had to fight something in a where they had to fight something in a war. war. war. >> [laughter] >> [laughter] >> [laughter] >> You know, they I mean? >> You know, they I mean? >> You know, they I mean? >> Fighting something in a war is also >> Fighting something in a war is also >> Fighting something in a war is also keeping something alive sometimes. keeping something alive sometimes. keeping something alive sometimes. >> That's true. That is true. Yeah. Yeah. >> That's true. That is true. Yeah. Yeah. >> That's true. That is true. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. >> But I would say like I would actually >> But I would say like I would actually >> But I would say like I would actually push back on that a little bit and say push back on that a little bit and say push back on that a little bit and say there is a role for socialization even there is a role for socialization even there is a role for socialization even in very young kids. So in the book I in very young kids. So in the book I in very young kids. So in the book I talked about an experiment that was done talked about an experiment that was done talked about an experiment that was done by the BBC where they brought a bunch of by the BBC where they brought a bunch of by the BBC where they brought a bunch of toddlers into a playroom and they got toddlers into a playroom and they got toddlers into a playroom and they got these adult volunteers and they switched these adult volunteers and they switched these adult volunteers and they switched the toddlers names and outfits. So they the toddlers names and outfits. So they the toddlers names and outfits. So they had a little girl, they put her in boy had a little girl, they put her in boy had a little girl, they put her in boy clothes and gave her a boy's name. They clothes and gave her a boy's name. They clothes and gave her a boy's name. They were trying to trick these playmates were trying to trick these playmates were trying to trick these playmates these adult playmate volunteers. So they these adult playmate volunteers. So they these adult playmate volunteers. So they took a little boy put him in a dress took a little boy put him in a dress took a little boy put him in a dress gave him a girl's name and they found gave him a girl's name and they found gave him a girl's name and they found that the volunteers played totally that the volunteers played totally that the volunteers played totally differently with the I think these were differently with the I think these were differently with the I think these were two-year-olds depending on the name and two-year-olds depending on the name and two-year-olds depending on the name and the outfit and they the outfit and they the outfit and they sort of sort of sort of appraised the play differently. So you appraised the play differently. So you appraised the play differently. So you know they taped these sessions and with know they taped these sessions and with know they taped these sessions and with the boy who's dressed as a little girl, the boy who's dressed as a little girl, the boy who's dressed as a little girl, oh you know, she loves the pink dolly. oh you know, she loves the pink dolly. oh you know, she loves the pink dolly. And with the girl who's dressed as a And with the girl who's dressed as a And with the girl who's dressed as a little boy little boy little boy >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> wants to push the truck. So I do think >> wants to push the truck. So I do think >> wants to push the truck. So I do think we have this way of sort of sorting we have this way of sort of sorting we have this way of sort of sorting boys and girls and so it's you know like boys and girls and so it's you know like boys and girls and so it's you know like with everything it's a mix of biology with everything it's a mix of biology with everything it's a mix of biology and culture. There's some biological and culture. There's some biological and culture. There's some biological propensity there but we amplify it propensity there but we amplify it propensity there but we amplify it through our culture and through the way through our culture and through the way through our culture and through the way we socialize and I think that leads to we socialize and I think that leads to we socialize and I think that leads to more divergent outcomes. more divergent outcomes. more divergent outcomes. >> That's like the Dartmouth scar uh study >> That's like the Dartmouth scar uh study >> That's like the Dartmouth scar uh study but done on kids. but done on kids. but done on kids. >> Yeah. Totally. Kind of hilarious. >> Yeah. Totally. Kind of hilarious. >> Yeah. Totally. Kind of hilarious. >> Uh what was the housework in court is >> Uh what was the housework in court is >> Uh what was the housework in court is all research? all research? all research? >> So this was work I did in my graduate >> So this was work I did in my graduate >> So this was work I did in my graduate training. Uh this was part of my training. Uh this was part of my training. Uh this was part of my dissertation. So we looked at dual dissertation. So we looked at dual dissertation. So we looked at dual income couples who were followed around income couples who were followed around income couples who were followed around their homes for a week. This was like a their homes for a week. This was like a their homes for a week. This was like a week in the life study week in the life study week in the life study of these middle class couples in LA. And of these middle class couples in LA. And of these middle class couples in LA. And we recorded how much time they were we recorded how much time they were we recorded how much time they were spending in common household activities. spending in common household activities. spending in common household activities. So we looked at housework time leisure So we looked at housework time leisure So we looked at housework time leisure time child care time other kinds of time child care time other kinds of time child care time other kinds of activities. I found that housework is activities. I found that housework is activities. I found that housework is bad for your health which I think anyone bad for your health which I think anyone bad for your health which I think anyone could have told you. So, the more time could have told you. So, the more time could have told you. So, the more time you spend doing housework you spend doing housework you spend doing housework on, you know, as part of a typical week, on, you know, as part of a typical week, on, you know, as part of a typical week, the less cortisol recovery you have at the less cortisol recovery you have at the less cortisol recovery you have at the end of the day. So, we looked at the the end of the day. So, we looked at the the end of the day. So, we looked at the magnitude of cortisol change from the magnitude of cortisol change from the magnitude of cortisol change from the afternoon into the evening, and you want afternoon into the evening, and you want afternoon into the evening, and you want this drop in cortisol levels at the end this drop in cortisol levels at the end this drop in cortisol levels at the end of the day. So, cortisol has a diurnal of the day. So, cortisol has a diurnal of the day. So, cortisol has a diurnal rhythm, has kind of a circadian pattern. rhythm, has kind of a circadian pattern. rhythm, has kind of a circadian pattern. You want to start high, and you want to You want to start high, and you want to You want to start high, and you want to end low. And when people were doing more end low. And when people were doing more end low. And when people were doing more housework in the evenings, they had less housework in the evenings, they had less housework in the evenings, they had less of that of that of that nadir that they were hitting at bedtime. nadir that they were hitting at bedtime. nadir that they were hitting at bedtime. And we also found that uh when you And we also found that uh when you And we also found that uh when you entered moms' and dads' time used entered moms' and dads' time used entered moms' and dads' time used together in the same model, together in the same model, together in the same model, moms benefited in terms of their moms benefited in terms of their moms benefited in terms of their cortisol when dads were doing more cortisol when dads were doing more cortisol when dads were doing more housework, and dads benefited when they housework, and dads benefited when they housework, and dads benefited when they had more leisure time and their partner had more leisure time and their partner had more leisure time and their partner had less leisure time. had less leisure time. had less leisure time. >> Mhm. >> Mhm. >> Mhm. >> So, kind of a mixed bag of results where >> So, kind of a mixed bag of results where >> So, kind of a mixed bag of results where it sort of, you know, it sort of, you know, it sort of, you know, if you're a mom, you want your partner if you're a mom, you want your partner if you're a mom, you want your partner to be helping with housework, and if to be helping with housework, and if to be helping with housework, and if you're a dad, you want to be sitting you're a dad, you want to be sitting you're a dad, you want to be sitting back and relaxing while your partner is back and relaxing while your partner is back and relaxing while your partner is taking care of business. taking care of business. taking care of business. >> Mhm. It's a bit zero-sum in that way. >> Mhm. It's a bit zero-sum in that way. >> Mhm. It's a bit zero-sum in that way. >> Yeah. Yeah, it's sort of depressing. >> Yeah. Yeah, it's sort of depressing. >> Yeah. Yeah, it's sort of depressing. >> Yeah. Yeah, it is. What's stress >> Yeah. Yeah, it is. What's stress >> Yeah. Yeah, it is. What's stress contagion? contagion? contagion? >> So, stress contagion is when couples >> So, stress contagion is when couples >> So, stress contagion is when couples influence each others' hormone levels. influence each others' hormone levels. influence each others' hormone levels. So, I found that you see linked cortisol So, I found that you see linked cortisol So, I found that you see linked cortisol levels in cohabitating couples, and I've levels in cohabitating couples, and I've levels in cohabitating couples, and I've looked at this in moms and dads. I've looked at this in moms and dads. I've looked at this in moms and dads. I've also looked at this in non-parent male also looked at this in non-parent male also looked at this in non-parent male and female couples. So, when one person and female couples. So, when one person and female couples. So, when one person has higher cortisol, their partner has has higher cortisol, their partner has has higher cortisol, their partner has higher than usual cortisol as well. And higher than usual cortisol as well. And higher than usual cortisol as well. And it seems like when the relationship it seems like when the relationship it seems like when the relationship quality is compromised, when you have quality is compromised, when you have quality is compromised, when you have more conflict, you have more tightly more conflict, you have more tightly more conflict, you have more tightly linked patterns of cortisol. So, people linked patterns of cortisol. So, people linked patterns of cortisol. So, people are actually increasing each others' are actually increasing each others' are actually increasing each others' stress rather than helping to balance or stress rather than helping to balance or stress rather than helping to balance or modulate it. modulate it. modulate it. >> How do you fix that? >> How do you fix that? >> How do you fix that? >> You help people communicate better and >> You help people communicate better and >> You help people communicate better and fight more effectively so that they can fight more effectively so that they can fight more effectively so that they can calm each other down rather than amp calm each other down rather than amp calm each other down rather than amp each other up. each other up. each other up. >> Right. >> Right. >> Right. >> I think when you're frustrated and >> I think when you're frustrated and >> I think when you're frustrated and stressed and you have a partner who's stressed and you have a partner who's stressed and you have a partner who's exacerbating that, it's very hard to exacerbating that, it's very hard to exacerbating that, it's very hard to recover. If you have a partner who can recover. If you have a partner who can recover. If you have a partner who can help to talk you down and sort of help to talk you down and sort of help to talk you down and sort of balance out your balance out your balance out your irritated state with a calm state, then irritated state with a calm state, then irritated state with a calm state, then you can better recover in terms of your you can better recover in terms of your you can better recover in terms of your biology. biology. biology. >> Mhm. >> Mhm. >> Mhm. What are the downsides of fatherhood for What are the downsides of fatherhood for What are the downsides of fatherhood for men? men? men? >> Well, we talked about already, you know, >> Well, we talked about already, you know, >> Well, we talked about already, you know, weight gain. Um we talked about weight gain. Um we talked about weight gain. Um we talked about testosterone changes. There's also testosterone changes. There's also testosterone changes. There's also increased vulnerability to mood increased vulnerability to mood increased vulnerability to mood disorders. So, the prevalence of disorders. So, the prevalence of disorders. So, the prevalence of depression in new dads is about twice depression in new dads is about twice depression in new dads is about twice that of the general population. There's that of the general population. There's that of the general population. There's a lot of controversy about whether we a lot of controversy about whether we a lot of controversy about whether we call it postpartum depression in dads. A call it postpartum depression in dads. A call it postpartum depression in dads. A lot of lot of lot of >> I've observed this. In In your opinion, >> I've observed this. In In your opinion, >> I've observed this. In In your opinion, >> Yes. >> Yes. >> Yes. >> do dads get postpartum depression? >> do dads get postpartum depression? >> do dads get postpartum depression? >> So, in the book, I say I think perinatal >> So, in the book, I say I think perinatal >> So, in the book, I say I think perinatal depression is a better word. That just depression is a better word. That just depression is a better word. That just means around the birth of a baby. means around the birth of a baby. means around the birth of a baby. >> Okay. >> Okay. >> Okay. >> But to me it's semantic. It doesn't >> But to me it's semantic. It doesn't >> But to me it's semantic. It doesn't matter that much whether we call it matter that much whether we call it matter that much whether we call it postpartum or perinatal. I think some postpartum or perinatal. I think some postpartum or perinatal. I think some people really are attached to the idea people really are attached to the idea people really are attached to the idea of postpartum really means having given of postpartum really means having given of postpartum really means having given birth. That's not really what the term birth. That's not really what the term birth. That's not really what the term means. It just means occurring after the means. It just means occurring after the means. It just means occurring after the birth of a baby. And the fact is that a birth of a baby. And the fact is that a birth of a baby. And the fact is that a lot of the risk factors for depression lot of the risk factors for depression lot of the risk factors for depression are shared by new moms and new dads. are shared by new moms and new dads. are shared by new moms and new dads. You've got stress, you've got disrupted You've got stress, you've got disrupted You've got stress, you've got disrupted sleep, you've got relationship conflict, sleep, you've got relationship conflict, sleep, you've got relationship conflict, you've got new responsibilities, you've got new responsibilities, you've got new responsibilities, identity crisis, identity crisis, identity crisis, hormone changes, brain changes. So, even hormone changes, brain changes. So, even hormone changes, brain changes. So, even though you're not the person that's though you're not the person that's though you're not the person that's physically delivered an infant, you are physically delivered an infant, you are physically delivered an infant, you are still experiencing a lot of the same still experiencing a lot of the same still experiencing a lot of the same overlapping risks. overlapping risks. overlapping risks. >> What does postpartum mean? >> What does postpartum mean? >> What does postpartum mean? >> So, it just means after the birth of a >> So, it just means after the birth of a >> So, it just means after the birth of a baby. The time period baby. The time period baby. The time period >> birth of a baby. >> birth of a baby. >> birth of a baby. >> Yeah, it doesn't necessarily mean that >> Yeah, it doesn't necessarily mean that >> Yeah, it doesn't necessarily mean that you birthed you birthed you birthed >> neutral term. >> neutral term. >> neutral term. >> Yeah, it's a gender neutral term. It >> Yeah, it's a gender neutral term. It >> Yeah, it's a gender neutral term. It doesn't necessarily mean that you doesn't necessarily mean that you doesn't necessarily mean that you birthed the baby. It just means the time birthed the baby. It just means the time birthed the baby. It just means the time period that falls after the birth of a period that falls after the birth of a period that falls after the birth of a baby. That said, I don't want to baby. That said, I don't want to baby. That said, I don't want to antagonize the moms who keep coming into antagonize the moms who keep coming into antagonize the moms who keep coming into my Instagram comments to get mad at me my Instagram comments to get mad at me my Instagram comments to get mad at me for talking about postpartum depression for talking about postpartum depression for talking about postpartum depression cuz I understand, you know, I there is cuz I understand, you know, I there is cuz I understand, you know, I there is >> are they mad about? Are they mad about >> are they mad about? Are they mad about >> are they mad about? Are they mad about the fact that this is autumn? Like we the fact that this is autumn? Like we the fact that this is autumn? Like we want it to be it needs to be like want it to be it needs to be like want it to be it needs to be like paternal postpartum depression or so it paternal postpartum depression or so it paternal postpartum depression or so it needs some sort of a qualifier on it. It needs some sort of a qualifier on it. It needs some sort of a qualifier on it. It sounds to me like and I saw a sounds to me like and I saw a sounds to me like and I saw a bunch of comments on Instagram talking bunch of comments on Instagram talking bunch of comments on Instagram talking about the same thing. about the same thing. about the same thing. Uh It's not about this is a term that we It's not about this is a term that we care about. It care about. It care about. It My best reading of it, right? And this My best reading of it, right? And this My best reading of it, right? And this is me trying to steal man as best I can. is me trying to steal man as best I can. is me trying to steal man as best I can. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> The process of childbirth for a woman is >> The process of childbirth for a woman is >> The process of childbirth for a woman is so so so arduous and traumatic and scary arduous and traumatic and scary arduous and traumatic and scary that any man who appears to be flippant that any man who appears to be flippant that any man who appears to be flippant or dismissive or to kind of or dismissive or to kind of or dismissive or to kind of liken the challenge that he goes through liken the challenge that he goes through liken the challenge that he goes through to the one that the mom goes through. to the one that the mom goes through. to the one that the mom goes through. That is seen as being very callous and That is seen as being very callous and That is seen as being very callous and and and and it doesn't fully appreciate or it doesn't fully appreciate or it doesn't fully appreciate or understand the sacrifice of a of a mom. understand the sacrifice of a of a mom. understand the sacrifice of a of a mom. I think that's the best reading of it. I think that's the best reading of it. I think that's the best reading of it. >> Yeah, I think that's a good reading. I >> Yeah, I think that's a good reading. I >> Yeah, I think that's a good reading. I think another piece of that think another piece of that think another piece of that >> That's me with my peaceful hat on. >> That's me with my peaceful hat on. >> That's me with my peaceful hat on. >> Yes, where's your peaceful hat? You're >> Yes, where's your peaceful hat? You're >> Yes, where's your peaceful hat? You're missing that prop. You need to You need missing that prop. You need to You need missing that prop. You need to You need a new prop. a new prop. a new prop. I would say that a lot of women I would say that a lot of women I would say that a lot of women legitimately feel like they've had to legitimately feel like they've had to legitimately feel like they've had to work very hard to get postpartum work very hard to get postpartum work very hard to get postpartum depression recognized. There's depression recognized. There's depression recognized. There's inadequate funding, there's inadequate inadequate funding, there's inadequate inadequate funding, there's inadequate attention paid to reproductive health attention paid to reproductive health attention paid to reproductive health and mood disorders in moms. And so if and mood disorders in moms. And so if and mood disorders in moms. And so if they're fighting to get access to they're fighting to get access to they're fighting to get access to treatment and to get education about treatment and to get education about treatment and to get education about their mental health, they feel like how their mental health, they feel like how their mental health, they feel like how can dads just sort of show up and make can dads just sort of show up and make can dads just sort of show up and make it all about them? That seems very it all about them? That seems very it all about them? That seems very unfair. And I'm totally sympathetic to unfair. And I'm totally sympathetic to unfair. And I'm totally sympathetic to that argument. I mean, I talked to a that argument. I mean, I talked to a that argument. I mean, I talked to a psychotherapist who works with new dads psychotherapist who works with new dads psychotherapist who works with new dads for my book who's done a lot of advocacy for my book who's done a lot of advocacy for my book who's done a lot of advocacy for postpartum mental health in men, and for postpartum mental health in men, and for postpartum mental health in men, and she says a lot of the women's health she says a lot of the women's health she says a lot of the women's health advocates are just like, "Can't we have advocates are just like, "Can't we have advocates are just like, "Can't we have this one thing? Can't we have the this one thing? Can't we have the this one thing? Can't we have the postpartum period? This is ours." postpartum period? This is ours." postpartum period? This is ours." >> Right, but I mean, that my peaceful >> Right, but I mean, that my peaceful >> Right, but I mean, that my peaceful hat's got taken off now. That is hat's got taken off now. That is hat's got taken off now. That is stupid. Like, because what you're saying stupid. Like, because what you're saying stupid. Like, because what you're saying is, can we not not support men because is, can we not not support men because is, can we not not support men because we want women to have most of the we want women to have most of the we want women to have most of the attention? You go, "Well, hang on a attention? You go, "Well, hang on a attention? You go, "Well, hang on a second. Are you most concerned about second. Are you most concerned about second. Are you most concerned about owning this area of cognitive real owning this area of cognitive real owning this area of cognitive real estate, like it's some sort of cultural estate, like it's some sort of cultural estate, like it's some sort of cultural appropriation by men, or do you care appropriation by men, or do you care appropriation by men, or do you care about the outcome of the kid and of the about the outcome of the kid and of the about the outcome of the kid and of the mom?" Because if you don't treat the mom?" Because if you don't treat the mom?" Because if you don't treat the mental health of the father, how do you mental health of the father, how do you mental health of the father, how do you think the mom's going to feel? And how think the mom's going to feel? And how think the mom's going to feel? And how do you think the child's going to grow do you think the child's going to grow do you think the child's going to grow up? So, what you're saying is you would up? So, what you're saying is you would up? So, what you're saying is you would rather be intellectually superior rather be intellectually superior rather be intellectually superior but in the real world have negative side but in the real world have negative side but in the real world have negative side effects. Like, that is the outcome. effects. Like, that is the outcome. effects. Like, that is the outcome. Whether that's what they know or what Whether that's what they know or what Whether that's what they know or what they mean doesn't matter. Like, it's not they mean doesn't matter. Like, it's not they mean doesn't matter. Like, it's not my job to sugarcoat the fact that you my job to sugarcoat the fact that you my job to sugarcoat the fact that you trying to own some area of cognitive trying to own some area of cognitive trying to own some area of cognitive real estate real estate real estate is having a negative impact on men. is having a negative impact on men. is having a negative impact on men. That should be enough, but also on mom That should be enough, but also on mom That should be enough, but also on mom if the men thing wasn't enough. And if if the men thing wasn't enough. And if if the men thing wasn't enough. And if that's not enough, on baby too. So, like that's not enough, on baby too. So, like that's not enough, on baby too. So, like not recognizing And if you did this in not recognizing And if you did this in not recognizing And if you did this in reverse, right? And this is true. For a reverse, right? And this is true. For a reverse, right? And this is true. For a very, very, very long time there was all very, very, very long time there was all very, very, very long time there was all research was done on men. It was just research was done on men. It was just research was done on men. It was just the male body standard inside of the the male body standard inside of the the male body standard inside of the medical industry. medical industry. medical industry. No one said, "Well, this is No one said, "Well, this is No one said, "Well, this is cancer. That's men's thing." You go, cancer. That's men's thing." You go, cancer. That's men's thing." You go, "No, this is not a gendered "No, this is not a gendered "No, this is not a gendered issue." So, I mean, I've got I've got a issue." So, I mean, I've got I've got a issue." So, I mean, I've got I've got a video to show you. I've got video from video to show you. I've got video from video to show you. I've got video from The Times that you've probably seen that The Times that you've probably seen that The Times that you've probably seen that I think is very interesting. And I think is very interesting. And I think is very interesting. And the video's interesting and the comments the video's interesting and the comments the video's interesting and the comments are way more interesting. So, it's this are way more interesting. So, it's this are way more interesting. So, it's this one It's this one on TikTok, Jared. one It's this one on TikTok, Jared. one It's this one on TikTok, Jared. >> I had postnatal depression. Yes, [music] >> I had postnatal depression. Yes, [music] >> I had postnatal depression. Yes, [music] dads can get it, too. In 2021, when my dads can get it, too. In 2021, when my dads can get it, too. In 2021, when my daughter Aurelia was about a month old, daughter Aurelia was about a month old, daughter Aurelia was about a month old, my wife turned to me in bed one morning my wife turned to me in bed one morning my wife turned to me in bed one morning and she [music] asked, "How much do you and she [music] asked, "How much do you and she [music] asked, "How much do you love her?" I froze. I kind of grit my love her?" I froze. I kind of grit my love her?" I froze. I kind of grit my teeth and said, "Yeah, I really love teeth and said, "Yeah, I really love teeth and said, "Yeah, I really love her." But, inside I knew [music] it her." But, inside I knew [music] it her." But, inside I knew [music] it wasn't there yet. I struggled to bond wasn't there yet. I struggled to bond wasn't there yet. I struggled to bond with my baby, felt disconnected, and had with my baby, felt disconnected, and had with my baby, felt disconnected, and had growing shame that I was not being the growing shame that I was not being the growing shame that I was not being the natural father [music] I thought I would natural father [music] I thought I would natural father [music] I thought I would be. About 6 months into fatherhood, I be. About 6 months into fatherhood, I be. About 6 months into fatherhood, I opened up to my wife. I wanted to be opened up to my wife. I wanted to be opened up to my wife. I wanted to be [music] a rock to Chelsie, who had had a [music] a rock to Chelsie, who had had a [music] a rock to Chelsie, who had had a complicated pregnancy. Eventually, I got complicated pregnancy. Eventually, I got complicated pregnancy. Eventually, I got therapy, but postnatal depression was therapy, but postnatal depression was therapy, but postnatal depression was never [music] raised. It wasn't until never [music] raised. It wasn't until never [music] raised. It wasn't until Aurelia was a year old that I came Aurelia was a year old that I came Aurelia was a year old that I came across an article about men's PND. across an article about men's PND. across an article about men's PND. [music] That everything started to make [music] That everything started to make [music] That everything started to make sense. About 10% of new dads will sense. About 10% of new dads will sense. About 10% of new dads will experience depressive symptoms during experience depressive symptoms during experience depressive symptoms during the perinatal period and first year of the perinatal period and first year of the perinatal period and first year of [music] a child's life. For me and my [music] a child's life. For me and my [music] a child's life. For me and my wife, it was a eureka moment. Men are wife, it was a eureka moment. Men are wife, it was a eureka moment. Men are not routinely screened for PND. [music] not routinely screened for PND. [music] not routinely screened for PND. [music] So many cases go undiagnosed. I think So many cases go undiagnosed. I think So many cases go undiagnosed. I think the system is not changing quickly the system is not changing quickly the system is not changing quickly enough to offer support and spot the enough to offer support and spot the enough to offer support and spot the signs of depression in dads. My bond signs of depression in dads. My bond signs of depression in dads. My bond with Aurelia is now incredible. And with with Aurelia is now incredible. And with with Aurelia is now incredible. And with new understanding and support, I hope I new understanding and support, I hope I new understanding and support, I hope I won't suffer from PND again, but I think won't suffer from PND again, but I think won't suffer from PND again, but I think new [music] dads should know they might new [music] dads should know they might new [music] dads should know they might not have that emotional bond straight not have that emotional bond straight not have that emotional bond straight away. away. away. >> All right. >> All right. >> All right. I think we can pause it there, Jared. I think we can pause it there, Jared. I think we can pause it there, Jared. >> that. >> that. >> that. >> Just look at the com- just press on the >> Just look at the com- just press on the >> Just look at the com- just press on the comments on the right hand side for me. comments on the right hand side for me. comments on the right hand side for me. >> want to go. I want to see the comments. >> want to go. I want to see the comments. >> want to go. I want to see the comments. >> Uh Matt, please. I already had a long >> Uh Matt, please. I already had a long >> Uh Matt, please. I already had a long day. How do I make this about myself? day. How do I make this about myself? day. How do I make this about myself? Thank you for telling us that's Tom Thank you for telling us that's Tom Thank you for telling us that's Tom Scarbo. Oh, Matt, it's not the same Scarbo. Oh, Matt, it's not the same Scarbo. Oh, Matt, it's not the same thing. This isn't depression, it's just thing. This isn't depression, it's just thing. This isn't depression, it's just comfort and uncertainty. Postpartum comfort and uncertainty. Postpartum comfort and uncertainty. Postpartum depression is linked to the dramatic depression is linked to the dramatic depression is linked to the dramatic hormonal changes that happen after hormonal changes that happen after hormonal changes that happen after childbirth, such as sudden drops in childbirth, such as sudden drops in childbirth, such as sudden drops in estrogen and progesterone. Not sure how estrogen and progesterone. Not sure how estrogen and progesterone. Not sure how this affects the father. Time of this affects the father. Time of this affects the father. Time of irritation, 1:41 p.m. Playing on my irritation, 1:41 p.m. Playing on my irritation, 1:41 p.m. Playing on my device. Yes, however, calling it device. Yes, however, calling it device. Yes, however, calling it postnatal depression isn't the right postnatal depression isn't the right postnatal depression isn't the right phase. Think he ultimately just didn't phase. Think he ultimately just didn't phase. Think he ultimately just didn't like all the attention in the like all the attention in the like all the attention in the relationship shifting to the baby. relationship shifting to the baby. relationship shifting to the baby. Please, I'm already annoyed today. How Please, I'm already annoyed today. How Please, I'm already annoyed today. How can I make this about me, too? I feel can I make this about me, too? I feel can I make this about me, too? I feel left out. Is there poo in my AirPods? left out. Is there poo in my AirPods? left out. Is there poo in my AirPods? >> Oh my gosh. >> Oh my gosh. >> Oh my gosh. >> Like >> Like >> Like >> Yeah, I've been I've been fighting in >> Yeah, I've been I've been fighting in >> Yeah, I've been I've been fighting in the comment sections like these for a the comment sections like these for a the comment sections like these for a while now and uh you know, people really while now and uh you know, people really while now and uh you know, people really come out of the woodwork to be come out of the woodwork to be come out of the woodwork to be frustrated with this kind of material frustrated with this kind of material frustrated with this kind of material and I think there's a gatekeeping around and I think there's a gatekeeping around and I think there's a gatekeeping around perinatal depression that is unfortunate perinatal depression that is unfortunate perinatal depression that is unfortunate because mental health is a family because mental health is a family because mental health is a family system. You need the best possible team system. You need the best possible team system. You need the best possible team around a baby and the best predictor around a baby and the best predictor around a baby and the best predictor actually of mom's mental health is the actually of mom's mental health is the actually of mom's mental health is the support that she gets from her partner. support that she gets from her partner. support that she gets from her partner. So, if dad is not well So, if dad is not well So, if dad is not well >> Mhm. >> Mhm. >> Mhm. >> dad is not showing up mom's mental >> dad is not showing up mom's mental >> dad is not showing up mom's mental health either. I think the idea that health either. I think the idea that health either. I think the idea that this is a fixed pie or that it's a this is a fixed pie or that it's a this is a fixed pie or that it's a zero-sum game like there's a finite zero-sum game like there's a finite zero-sum game like there's a finite amount of resources that are going to go amount of resources that are going to go amount of resources that are going to go to a parent's mental health and they to a parent's mental health and they to a parent's mental health and they need to be directed solely to mom, I need to be directed solely to mom, I need to be directed solely to mom, I think is really limited. We need to be think is really limited. We need to be think is really limited. We need to be thinking about how do moms work together thinking about how do moms work together thinking about how do moms work together with dads to make sure that the baby is with dads to make sure that the baby is with dads to make sure that the baby is getting well cared for and that getting well cared for and that getting well cared for and that everybody's mental health needs are everybody's mental health needs are everybody's mental health needs are getting met. getting met. getting met. >> I think a zero-sum view of empathy is >> I think a zero-sum view of empathy is >> I think a zero-sum view of empathy is like one of the dumbest, especially with like one of the dumbest, especially with like one of the dumbest, especially with something like this. It's just a guy something like this. It's just a guy something like this. It's just a guy going, "I went through this really hard going, "I went through this really hard going, "I went through this really hard thing." thing." thing." And people going, "No, you didn't." No, And people going, "No, you didn't." No, And people going, "No, you didn't." No, you didn't. Or I went through something you didn't. Or I went through something you didn't. Or I went through something that was way worse than that. that was way worse than that. that was way worse than that. >> Yeah, why are we gaslighting dads and >> Yeah, why are we gaslighting dads and >> Yeah, why are we gaslighting dads and why are we pitting dads against moms? why are we pitting dads against moms? why are we pitting dads against moms? And my response to that is if we want to And my response to that is if we want to And my response to that is if we want to have a society where men are stepping up have a society where men are stepping up have a society where men are stepping up as parents and they're fully as parents and they're fully as parents and they're fully participating in caretaking, they're participating in caretaking, they're participating in caretaking, they're waking up with the baby, they're doing waking up with the baby, they're doing waking up with the baby, they're doing the hard parts of care, we need to the hard parts of care, we need to the hard parts of care, we need to recognize that that's going to have recognize that that's going to have recognize that that's going to have mental health consequences. It's going mental health consequences. It's going mental health consequences. It's going to be taxing. It's going to be to be taxing. It's going to be to be taxing. It's going to be isolating. It's going to be draining. isolating. It's going to be draining. isolating. It's going to be draining. And if we really want men to And if we really want men to And if we really want men to participate, we have to respect that participate, we have to respect that participate, we have to respect that their mental health matters, too. We their mental health matters, too. We their mental health matters, too. We can't guard it as though it's the sole can't guard it as though it's the sole can't guard it as though it's the sole domain of new moms because we want dads domain of new moms because we want dads domain of new moms because we want dads to act more like primary caregivers, but to act more like primary caregivers, but to act more like primary caregivers, but we're not willing to accept that they're we're not willing to accept that they're we're not willing to accept that they're going to have vulnerability tied to going to have vulnerability tied to going to have vulnerability tied to that. that. that. >> Bingo. Yeah. >> Bingo. Yeah. >> Bingo. Yeah. You saying the same thing You saying the same thing You saying the same thing in two different I'm was different in two different I'm was different in two different I'm was different things in the same breath which is we things in the same breath which is we things in the same breath which is we want dads to be fully involved but we want dads to be fully involved but we want dads to be fully involved but we don't believe that they can have the don't believe that they can have the don't believe that they can have the negative outcomes that other people negative outcomes that other people negative outcomes that other people who've been fully involved for all of who've been fully involved for all of who've been fully involved for all of history have. What's the rate of post history have. What's the rate of post history have. What's the rate of post postnatal depression in women? postnatal depression in women? postnatal depression in women? >> It's a little higher in new moms than it >> It's a little higher in new moms than it >> It's a little higher in new moms than it is in new dads. I think it's a it ranges is in new dads. I think it's a it ranges is in new dads. I think it's a it ranges across studies but like 19 to 21%. across studies but like 19 to 21%. across studies but like 19 to 21%. >> It's about double. >> It's about double. >> It's about double. >> 10%. >> 10%. >> 10%. >> Which is nearly the same as the change >> Which is nearly the same as the change >> Which is nearly the same as the change in brain. in brain. in brain. 1% to 2 to 1/2. 1% to 2 to 1/2. 1% to 2 to 1/2. >> Yes. And I think important context is >> Yes. And I think important context is >> Yes. And I think important context is that women have about twice the rate of that women have about twice the rate of that women have about twice the rate of anxiety and depression in the general anxiety and depression in the general anxiety and depression in the general population. So it tracks with that population. So it tracks with that population. So it tracks with that overall base rate. overall base rate. overall base rate. >> Wow, that's >> Wow, that's >> Wow, that's a spicy realization that it could just a spicy realization that it could just a spicy realization that it could just be an increase in whatever your be an increase in whatever your be an increase in whatever your predisposition was and that dads are predisposition was and that dads are predisposition was and that dads are actually getting it at the same rate as actually getting it at the same rate as actually getting it at the same rate as moms. And now that we've got more moms. And now that we've got more moms. And now that we've got more involved caregiving which is the primary involved caregiving which is the primary involved caregiving which is the primary enforcement mechanism for the the enforcement mechanism for the the enforcement mechanism for the the change. I'm going to guess postpartum change. I'm going to guess postpartum change. I'm going to guess postpartum depression in fathers is mediated by the depression in fathers is mediated by the depression in fathers is mediated by the amount of caregiving that they do. amount of caregiving that they do. amount of caregiving that they do. >> Right. And that's the other thing >> Right. And that's the other thing >> Right. And that's the other thing >> So you're telling me like that that's >> So you're telling me like that that's >> So you're telling me like that that's brutal that any dad that's listening to brutal that any dad that's listening to brutal that any dad that's listening to this now knows the more that I care for this now knows the more that I care for this now knows the more that I care for my baby the higher my likelihood of my baby the higher my likelihood of my baby the higher my likelihood of getting postnatal depression is. getting postnatal depression is. getting postnatal depression is. >> Well, let's keep in mind it's still a >> Well, let's keep in mind it's still a >> Well, let's keep in mind it's still a low rate and low rate and low rate and a lot of people experience baby blues a lot of people experience baby blues a lot of people experience baby blues that don't that don't that don't turn into full-blown debilitating turn into full-blown debilitating turn into full-blown debilitating depression, right? There's a continuum. depression, right? There's a continuum. depression, right? There's a continuum. So you can have depressive symptoms So you can have depressive symptoms So you can have depressive symptoms without necessarily becoming somebody without necessarily becoming somebody without necessarily becoming somebody who's incapacitated by depression. who's incapacitated by depression. who's incapacitated by depression. >> 95% of people don't get enough fiber, >> 95% of people don't get enough fiber, >> 95% of people don't get enough fiber, which is why Momentous built Fiber Plus which is why Momentous built Fiber Plus which is why Momentous built Fiber Plus because hitting your daily fiber target because hitting your daily fiber target because hitting your daily fiber target through food alone is actually kind of through food alone is actually kind of through food alone is actually kind of hard. Even hard. Even hard. Even harder than your last toilet trip. Fiber harder than your last toilet trip. Fiber harder than your last toilet trip. Fiber isn't just a digestion thing. It's the isn't just a digestion thing. It's the isn't just a digestion thing. It's the foundation of your gut health which foundation of your gut health which foundation of your gut health which drives how well you absorb nutrients, drives how well you absorb nutrients, drives how well you absorb nutrients, how stable your energy is and how how stable your energy is and how how stable your energy is and how quickly you recover. If your gut isn't quickly you recover. If your gut isn't quickly you recover. If your gut isn't dialed, everything else you're doing is dialed, everything else you're doing is dialed, everything else you're doing is working at a fraction of its potential. working at a fraction of its potential. working at a fraction of its potential. Fiber Plus is a three-in-one formula Fiber Plus is a three-in-one formula Fiber Plus is a three-in-one formula built to address digestion, gut barrier built to address digestion, gut barrier built to address digestion, gut barrier strength, and blood sugar stability all strength, and blood sugar stability all strength, and blood sugar stability all at once. That's why I plan to make my at once. That's why I plan to make my at once. That's why I plan to make my next big dump next big dump next big dump momentous. momentous. momentous. Best of all, they offer a 30-day Best of all, they offer a 30-day Best of all, they offer a 30-day money-back guarantee, so you can buy it money-back guarantee, so you can buy it money-back guarantee, so you can buy it and try it for 29 days, and if you don't and try it for 29 days, and if you don't and try it for 29 days, and if you don't love it, they'll give you your money love it, they'll give you your money love it, they'll give you your money back. Plus, they ship internationally. back. Plus, they ship internationally. back. Plus, they ship internationally. Right now, you can get up to 35% off Right now, you can get up to 35% off Right now, you can get up to 35% off your first subscription and that 30-day your first subscription and that 30-day your first subscription and that 30-day money-back guarantee by going to the money-back guarantee by going to the money-back guarantee by going to the link in the description below or heading link in the description below or heading link in the description below or heading to livemomentous.com/modernwisdom to livemomentous.com/modernwisdom to livemomentous.com/modernwisdom and using the code modernwisdom at and using the code modernwisdom at and using the code modernwisdom at checkout. That's l i v e m o m e n t o u checkout. That's l i v e m o m e n t o u checkout. That's l i v e m o m e n t o u s.com/modernwisdom s.com/modernwisdom s.com/modernwisdom and modernwisdom and modernwisdom and modernwisdom at checkout. at checkout. at checkout. >> Why is there an adaptive explanation for >> Why is there an adaptive explanation for >> Why is there an adaptive explanation for postpartum depression in women? postpartum depression in women? postpartum depression in women? >> So, I actually think probably not. I >> So, I actually think probably not. I >> So, I actually think probably not. I think it's more of a sign of an think it's more of a sign of an think it's more of a sign of an evolutionary cultural mismatch, which is evolutionary cultural mismatch, which is evolutionary cultural mismatch, which is this this this going back to this idea that we as going back to this idea that we as going back to this idea that we as humans are cooperative breeders and we humans are cooperative breeders and we humans are cooperative breeders and we evolved to have a lot of support around evolved to have a lot of support around evolved to have a lot of support around caregiving. So, we evolved to trade off caregiving. So, we evolved to trade off caregiving. So, we evolved to trade off care, to share care with people in the care, to share care with people in the care, to share care with people in the community, with our kin. I think we now community, with our kin. I think we now community, with our kin. I think we now place a lot of pressure on individual place a lot of pressure on individual place a lot of pressure on individual parents and on the individual nuclear parents and on the individual nuclear parents and on the individual nuclear family to serve the roles that family to serve the roles that family to serve the roles that dozens of people used to serve when dozens of people used to serve when dozens of people used to serve when there was a lot more proximity and there was a lot more proximity and there was a lot more proximity and people helped each other out a lot more people helped each other out a lot more people helped each other out a lot more with care. So, we isolate new parents, with care. So, we isolate new parents, with care. So, we isolate new parents, we don't value their work. We've already we don't value their work. We've already we don't value their work. We've already talked about, you know, the incentives talked about, you know, the incentives talked about, you know, the incentives of a very late capitalist society where of a very late capitalist society where of a very late capitalist society where we want people to be ambitious drivers we want people to be ambitious drivers we want people to be ambitious drivers and we want them to move on quickly from and we want them to move on quickly from and we want them to move on quickly from this interruption of birth. this interruption of birth. this interruption of birth. >> Mhm. >> Mhm. >> Mhm. >> And And so, we're not providing the >> And And so, we're not providing the >> And And so, we're not providing the support, you know, in this country, we support, you know, in this country, we support, you know, in this country, we don't have universal paid maternity don't have universal paid maternity don't have universal paid maternity leave or paternity leave. So, leave or paternity leave. So, leave or paternity leave. So, a A of women go back to work probably a A of women go back to work probably a A of women go back to work probably before they feel like they're ready. A before they feel like they're ready. A before they feel like they're ready. A lot of men do, too. We don't give lot of men do, too. We don't give lot of men do, too. We don't give inadequate or we don't give adequate inadequate or we don't give adequate inadequate or we don't give adequate time and protection. time and protection. time and protection. >> Right. >> Right. >> Right. >> And we, you know, we create an uphill >> And we, you know, we create an uphill >> And we, you know, we create an uphill battle where parents feel isolated and battle where parents feel isolated and battle where parents feel isolated and drained. drained. drained. >> So, >> So, >> So, is there any evidence of postpartum in is there any evidence of postpartum in is there any evidence of postpartum in hunter-gatherer societies? hunter-gatherer societies? hunter-gatherer societies? >> Not that I know of, but I'm also not >> Not that I know of, but I'm also not >> Not that I know of, but I'm also not sure how well it's been tracked or sure how well it's been tracked or sure how well it's been tracked or measured. measured. measured. >> Yep. Okay. >> Yep. Okay. >> Yep. Okay. >> But, I think it's >> But, I think it's >> But, I think it's >> to say this mismatch hypothesis >> to say this mismatch hypothesis >> to say this mismatch hypothesis >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> kind of it can just be split tested >> kind of it can just be split tested >> kind of it can just be split tested across across across like civilizations. like civilizations. like civilizations. >> Yeah. I mean, I I think it's a really, >> Yeah. I mean, I I think it's a really, >> Yeah. I mean, I I think it's a really, really interesting question and really interesting question and really interesting question and depression in general, you know, hasn't depression in general, you know, hasn't depression in general, you know, hasn't been observed as much in those been observed as much in those been observed as much in those populations. populations. populations. So, it's a really interesting question, So, it's a really interesting question, So, it's a really interesting question, but, you know, in hunter-gatherer but, you know, in hunter-gatherer but, you know, in hunter-gatherer societies, when a woman becomes a societies, when a woman becomes a societies, when a woman becomes a mother, she becomes if anything more mother, she becomes if anything more mother, she becomes if anything more socially integrated into the life of the socially integrated into the life of the socially integrated into the life of the community. community. community. In contemporary society, when a woman In contemporary society, when a woman In contemporary society, when a woman becomes a mother, she often becomes more becomes a mother, she often becomes more becomes a mother, she often becomes more isolated. We have all of these public isolated. We have all of these public isolated. We have all of these public spaces that, you know, don't bring the spaces that, you know, don't bring the spaces that, you know, don't bring the baby to baby to baby to a wedding. Don't bring the baby to a a wedding. Don't bring the baby to a a wedding. Don't bring the baby to a restaurant. Don't bring the baby to a restaurant. Don't bring the baby to a restaurant. Don't bring the baby to a cafe. cafe. cafe. >> People don't want to Yeah, to work, >> People don't want to Yeah, to work, >> People don't want to Yeah, to work, right? Like a hunter-gatherer mom can right? Like a hunter-gatherer mom can right? Like a hunter-gatherer mom can actually still go to work. She can still actually still go to work. She can still actually still go to work. She can still be wearing the baby. She can function be wearing the baby. She can function be wearing the baby. She can function economically. economically. economically. >> some berries. >> some berries. >> some berries. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Had a good day in the office. >> Had a good day in the office. >> Had a good day in the office. >> She can occupy a high-status social >> She can occupy a high-status social >> She can occupy a high-status social role. role. role. >> Yep. >> Yep. >> Yep. >> And and she can be, you know, fully >> And and she can be, you know, fully >> And and she can be, you know, fully integrated into the community. integrated into the community. integrated into the community. >> So, the the this the what is >> So, the the this the what is >> So, the the this the what is rewarded socioeconomically at the moment rewarded socioeconomically at the moment rewarded socioeconomically at the moment specifically for women specifically for women specifically for women uh is not uh is not uh is not baby baby baby accommodating. accommodating. accommodating. >> We have this kind of sharp divide >> We have this kind of sharp divide >> We have this kind of sharp divide between work and home, which I think is between work and home, which I think is between work and home, which I think is a legacy of the Industrial Revolution, a legacy of the Industrial Revolution, a legacy of the Industrial Revolution, right? We Before that, work generally right? We Before that, work generally right? We Before that, work generally happened at home. Dads were around a happened at home. Dads were around a happened at home. Dads were around a lot. Moms were around a lot. Kids were lot. Moms were around a lot. Kids were lot. Moms were around a lot. Kids were raised as workers. They were raised as workers. They were raised as workers. They were contributing to the family business, the contributing to the family business, the contributing to the family business, the family economy. family economy. family economy. >> Jared, if you brought your kid in here >> Jared, if you brought your kid in here >> Jared, if you brought your kid in here and they were able to write good copy if and they were able to write good copy if and they were able to write good copy if your your your 8-month-old was able to write good 8-month-old was able to write good 8-month-old was able to write good YouTube copy, I'd be down. I would be I YouTube copy, I'd be down. I would be I YouTube copy, I'd be down. I would be I would be absolutely fine. I mean, you're would be absolutely fine. I mean, you're would be absolutely fine. I mean, you're allowed to come as long as you allowed to come as long as you allowed to come as long as you contribute, but contribute, but contribute, but >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. He's working on >> Yeah. He's working on >> Yeah. He's working on >> Yeah, he's trying. >> Yeah, he's trying. >> Yeah, he's trying. >> Yeah. Good way to hone those skills. >> Yeah. Good way to hone those skills. >> Yeah. Good way to hone those skills. >> What I'm interested, what do you think's >> What I'm interested, what do you think's >> What I'm interested, what do you think's the best advice for dads like trying to the best advice for dads like trying to the best advice for dads like trying to be be be great father, great husband, still take great father, great husband, still take great father, great husband, still take care of themselves while supporting a care of themselves while supporting a care of themselves while supporting a mom who's going through postpartum? mom who's going through postpartum? mom who's going through postpartum? >> Give yourself grace. Don't expect that >> Give yourself grace. Don't expect that >> Give yourself grace. Don't expect that it will be easy. Forewarned is it will be easy. Forewarned is it will be easy. Forewarned is forearmed. So, you know, know that this forearmed. So, you know, know that this forearmed. So, you know, know that this is going to rock your world and it's is going to rock your world and it's is going to rock your world and it's going to be transformative, but it's going to be transformative, but it's going to be transformative, but it's supposed to be transformative. And I supposed to be transformative. And I supposed to be transformative. And I would say steer away from the myth that would say steer away from the myth that would say steer away from the myth that dads don't have any innate wiring to dads don't have any innate wiring to dads don't have any innate wiring to know how to take care of a baby. I think know how to take care of a baby. I think know how to take care of a baby. I think we have this idea that moms are just we have this idea that moms are just we have this idea that moms are just born knowing what to do when a baby born knowing what to do when a baby born knowing what to do when a baby arrives and men are going to be helpless arrives and men are going to be helpless arrives and men are going to be helpless and useless. and useless. and useless. >> Does that help moms postpartum? >> Does that help moms postpartum? >> Does that help moms postpartum? >> I don't think so, because I will say >> I don't think so, because I will say >> I don't think so, because I will say when I had my kids, I was like, "What am when I had my kids, I was like, "What am when I had my kids, I was like, "What am I supposed to do with these people?" You I supposed to do with these people?" You I supposed to do with these people?" You know, you have to learn and you figure know, you have to learn and you figure know, you have to learn and you figure it out and it's about your motivation it out and it's about your motivation it out and it's about your motivation and your willingness to practice more and your willingness to practice more and your willingness to practice more than it's about just, you know, having than it's about just, you know, having than it's about just, you know, having some inborn reflex that's telling you some inborn reflex that's telling you some inborn reflex that's telling you how to care for a child. And dads have how to care for a child. And dads have how to care for a child. And dads have that capacity to care and to build those that capacity to care and to build those that capacity to care and to build those empathetic, responsive, caregiving empathetic, responsive, caregiving empathetic, responsive, caregiving brains. brains. brains. >> I've got two potential hypotheses in my >> I've got two potential hypotheses in my >> I've got two potential hypotheses in my mind. Uh mind. Uh mind. Uh first one is like postpartum contagion. first one is like postpartum contagion. first one is like postpartum contagion. >> Mhm. >> Mhm. >> Mhm. >> Uh I have to assume that if the mom is >> Uh I have to assume that if the mom is >> Uh I have to assume that if the mom is dealing with it, it's more likely that dealing with it, it's more likely that dealing with it, it's more likely that the dad's going to deal with it. the dad's going to deal with it. the dad's going to deal with it. >> Mhm. >> Mhm. >> Mhm. >> But >> But >> But I wonder if level of I wonder if level of I wonder if level of paternal child caring paternal child caring paternal child caring decreases the likelihood of decreases the likelihood of decreases the likelihood of uh female postpartum depression. Do we uh female postpartum depression. Do we uh female postpartum depression. Do we know know know do we know what do we know what do we know what levels of levels of levels of household setup can increase or decrease household setup can increase or decrease household setup can increase or decrease the likelihood? the likelihood? the likelihood? >> So, there is some research on this and >> So, there is some research on this and >> So, there is some research on this and it corroborates both of your hunches. it corroborates both of your hunches. it corroborates both of your hunches. >> Dude, don't test me. Don't test me on >> Dude, don't test me. Don't test me on >> Dude, don't test me. Don't test me on this this this >> So, you can keep the the bro science hat >> So, you can keep the the bro science hat >> So, you can keep the the bro science hat off. Yeah, you don't need it. off. Yeah, you don't need it. off. Yeah, you don't need it. >> Yeah, good. >> Yeah, good. >> Yeah, good. >> Um good instincts, but there's research >> Um good instincts, but there's research >> Um good instincts, but there's research that depressive symptoms are correlated that depressive symptoms are correlated that depressive symptoms are correlated within moms and dads. So, if mom is more within moms and dads. So, if mom is more within moms and dads. So, if mom is more depressed, dad's more likely to be depressed, dad's more likely to be depressed, dad's more likely to be depressed. If dad's depressed, they're depressed. If dad's depressed, they're depressed. If dad's depressed, they're likely to be depressed. And if one likely to be depressed. And if one likely to be depressed. And if one partner is well and can support the partner is well and can support the partner is well and can support the other partner, that's also a huge other partner, that's also a huge other partner, that's also a huge resilience factor, that's a buffer. resilience factor, that's a buffer. resilience factor, that's a buffer. So, they track together. So, they track together. So, they track together. >> Yep. >> Yep. >> Yep. >> And there's also evidence that when dads >> And there's also evidence that when dads >> And there's also evidence that when dads are more involved, moms benefit. So, one are more involved, moms benefit. So, one are more involved, moms benefit. So, one really cool study tested a paternity really cool study tested a paternity really cool study tested a paternity leave reform program in Sweden where leave reform program in Sweden where leave reform program in Sweden where they were expanding flexibility of they were expanding flexibility of they were expanding flexibility of paternity leave for dads. They found paternity leave for dads. They found paternity leave for dads. They found that if you look at babies born right that if you look at babies born right that if you look at babies born right before and right after that policy before and right after that policy before and right after that policy intervention, you actually see lower intervention, you actually see lower intervention, you actually see lower rates of anti-anxiety medication rates of anti-anxiety medication rates of anti-anxiety medication prescriptions were filled less often by prescriptions were filled less often by prescriptions were filled less often by the new moms. So, if dads have more the new moms. So, if dads have more the new moms. So, if dads have more access to leave, moms actually show this access to leave, moms actually show this access to leave, moms actually show this population-level mental health benefit. population-level mental health benefit. population-level mental health benefit. And my lab has done similar work and we And my lab has done similar work and we And my lab has done similar work and we found that if you look at prenatal to found that if you look at prenatal to found that if you look at prenatal to postpartum trajectories of depressive postpartum trajectories of depressive postpartum trajectories of depressive symptoms, when dads get access to paid symptoms, when dads get access to paid symptoms, when dads get access to paid paternity leave, moms are less likely to paternity leave, moms are less likely to paternity leave, moms are less likely to get depressed after the birth of a baby. get depressed after the birth of a baby. get depressed after the birth of a baby. >> So, >> So, >> So, it seems like it seems like it seems like the postpartum depression maybe for dads the postpartum depression maybe for dads the postpartum depression maybe for dads as well as moms, as well as moms, as well as moms, one of the key drivers is one of the key drivers is one of the key drivers is social integration, level of social social integration, level of social social integration, level of social integration. Does that mean that if integration. Does that mean that if integration. Does that mean that if you're struggling with postpartum you're struggling with postpartum you're struggling with postpartum depression, you should try and like turn depression, you should try and like turn depression, you should try and like turn on the the socialization taps a little on the the socialization taps a little on the the socialization taps a little bit to bit to bit to mommy daddy daycare meet up things? That mommy daddy daycare meet up things? That mommy daddy daycare meet up things? That seems like an an intervention that might seems like an an intervention that might seems like an an intervention that might work. work. work. >> Exactly. And that goes back to the >> Exactly. And that goes back to the >> Exactly. And that goes back to the evolutionary mismatch idea, right? We're evolutionary mismatch idea, right? We're evolutionary mismatch idea, right? We're supposed to be embedded in social supposed to be embedded in social supposed to be embedded in social networks that help us care for our kids. networks that help us care for our kids. networks that help us care for our kids. We're not supposed to We're not supposed to We're not supposed to >> Wait, is she saying >> Wait, is she saying >> Wait, is she saying >> do it alone. >> do it alone. >> do it alone. >> Is postpartum basically like >> Is postpartum basically like >> Is postpartum basically like this is a lot and I'm overwhelmed? this is a lot and I'm overwhelmed? this is a lot and I'm overwhelmed? >> Yeah. I mean, that's part of it. Yeah. >> Yeah. I mean, that's part of it. Yeah. >> Yeah. I mean, that's part of it. Yeah. It compounded with sleep loss, identity It compounded with sleep loss, identity It compounded with sleep loss, identity challenges, relationship strain, challenges, relationship strain, challenges, relationship strain, money and life worries, and your brain money and life worries, and your brain money and life worries, and your brain and hormones getting totally, you know, and hormones getting totally, you know, and hormones getting totally, you know, disrupted. disrupted. disrupted. >> Does that mean Does that mean Does that mean that there is a that there is a that there is a socioeconomic predictor for postpartum socioeconomic predictor for postpartum socioeconomic predictor for postpartum depression? Because people who are more depression? Because people who are more depression? Because people who are more wealthy are more likely to have child wealthy are more likely to have child wealthy are more likely to have child care, which means that they have more care, which means that they have more care, which means that they have more assistance, less pressure, and better assistance, less pressure, and better assistance, less pressure, and better sleep. sleep. sleep. >> Yes. >> Yes. >> Yes. >> Dude. Yes. >> Dude. Yes. >> Dude. Yes. >> So, there is a socioeconomic link >> So, there is a socioeconomic link >> So, there is a socioeconomic link between postpartum depression risk. And between postpartum depression risk. And between postpartum depression risk. And part of it is, you know, there are moms part of it is, you know, there are moms part of it is, you know, there are moms in the US who go back to work blessed in in the US who go back to work blessed in in the US who go back to work blessed in 2 weeks after the birth of a baby. So, 2 weeks after the birth of a baby. So, 2 weeks after the birth of a baby. So, if you're a shift worker, if you're a if you're a shift worker, if you're a if you're a shift worker, if you're a gig worker, if you're at Walmart, you gig worker, if you're at Walmart, you gig worker, if you're at Walmart, you are probably not getting time to rest, are probably not getting time to rest, are probably not getting time to rest, recover, and bond. And that's really recover, and bond. And that's really recover, and bond. And that's really stressful and really taxing to your stressful and really taxing to your stressful and really taxing to your ability to adjust to parenthood. So, ability to adjust to parenthood. So, ability to adjust to parenthood. So, that's part of it. It's also like, what that's part of it. It's also like, what that's part of it. It's also like, what are the community resources that are are the community resources that are are the community resources that are available to you? Can you afford support available to you? Can you afford support available to you? Can you afford support and child care? But some of the best and child care? But some of the best and child care? But some of the best interventions for postpartum depression interventions for postpartum depression interventions for postpartum depression are around shoring up your social are around shoring up your social are around shoring up your social support networks. So, helping get people support networks. So, helping get people support networks. So, helping get people to be more proactive about asking for to be more proactive about asking for to be more proactive about asking for help. Helping to invest in your help. Helping to invest in your help. Helping to invest in your relationships. And you can even do relationships. And you can even do relationships. And you can even do preventive intervention before a baby's preventive intervention before a baby's preventive intervention before a baby's born to say, and we actually do this. My born to say, and we actually do this. My born to say, and we actually do this. My lab leads psychoeducational workshops lab leads psychoeducational workshops lab leads psychoeducational workshops with a big with a big with a big hospital system that serves low-income hospital system that serves low-income hospital system that serves low-income new parents. We say we have them make a new parents. We say we have them make a new parents. We say we have them make a social support map. So, we say, who are social support map. So, we say, who are social support map. So, we say, who are you going to be able to ask for for in you going to be able to ask for for in you going to be able to ask for for in different domains after the baby comes. different domains after the baby comes. different domains after the baby comes. You know, maybe your older brother isn't You know, maybe your older brother isn't You know, maybe your older brother isn't going to be that helpful when it comes going to be that helpful when it comes going to be that helpful when it comes to taking the baby for a nap, but he can to taking the baby for a nap, but he can to taking the baby for a nap, but he can help with your lawn care. You know, so help with your lawn care. You know, so help with your lawn care. You know, so how do you plug different people in your how do you plug different people in your how do you plug different people in your life into different roles to make sure life into different roles to make sure life into different roles to make sure that your social support needs are are that your social support needs are are that your social support needs are are met. And we try to coach people to be met. And we try to coach people to be met. And we try to coach people to be more assertive for about asking for help more assertive for about asking for help more assertive for about asking for help cuz I think we're conditioned in our cuz I think we're conditioned in our cuz I think we're conditioned in our society to be very society to be very society to be very >> Independence and hyper individualism. >> Independence and hyper individualism. >> Independence and hyper individualism. >> Yeah, yeah, yeah. I I >> Yeah, yeah, yeah. I I >> Yeah, yeah, yeah. I I learned from Louise Perry that in learned from Louise Perry that in learned from Louise Perry that in uh like Renaissance England, there was a uh like Renaissance England, there was a uh like Renaissance England, there was a period called lying in, laying in, period called lying in, laying in, period called lying in, laying in, >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> where for 2 weeks >> where for 2 weeks >> where for 2 weeks the mother didn't move after childbirth, the mother didn't move after childbirth, the mother didn't move after childbirth, waited on hand and foot, waited on hand and foot, waited on hand and foot, >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> anything that was needed. All she did >> anything that was needed. All she did >> anything that was needed. All she did was hold baby and and like feed baby. was hold baby and and like feed baby. was hold baby and and like feed baby. And everything else done. Right? The And everything else done. Right? The And everything else done. Right? The whole family comes and and and and whole family comes and and and and whole family comes and and and and assists and you just you know, this assists and you just you know, this assists and you just you know, this physically traumatic things happen to physically traumatic things happen to physically traumatic things happen to you like that it just seems you like that it just seems you like that it just seems it seems very contrary to it seems very contrary to it seems very contrary to this this this like like like >> [sighs] >> [sighs] >> [sighs] >> hyper >> hyper >> hyper speed speed speed productivity engine thing. And it's it's productivity engine thing. And it's it's productivity engine thing. And it's it's kind of strange, right? Because I my kind of strange, right? Because I my kind of strange, right? Because I my original background was as a original background was as a original background was as a productivity doc, which I still have productivity doc, which I still have productivity doc, which I still have vestiges of. vestiges of. vestiges of. >> Mhm. >> Mhm. >> Mhm. >> And >> And >> And the way that I started the show was the way that I started the show was the way that I started the show was trying to learn life hacks and trying to learn life hacks and trying to learn life hacks and memorization tools and how to have a memorization tools and how to have a memorization tools and how to have a great to-do list manager and stuff like great to-do list manager and stuff like great to-do list manager and stuff like that because that was what I thought was that because that was what I thought was that because that was what I thought was really important to me. And I think I really important to me. And I think I really important to me. And I think I always just assumed that at some point always just assumed that at some point always just assumed that at some point you become an adult and you sort of grow you become an adult and you sort of grow you become an adult and you sort of grow out of that. out of that. out of that. >> Mhm. >> Mhm. >> Mhm. >> But that really is one of the drugs of >> But that really is one of the drugs of >> But that really is one of the drugs of the 21st century, this hyper-optimized the 21st century, this hyper-optimized the 21st century, this hyper-optimized efficiency culture, get more out. And efficiency culture, get more out. And efficiency culture, get more out. And there's no reason it was kind of naive there's no reason it was kind of naive there's no reason it was kind of naive of me to think that of me to think that of me to think that oh well, just when you become a parent, oh well, just when you become a parent, oh well, just when you become a parent, you forget about that, or you realize you forget about that, or you realize you forget about that, or you realize that other things are more important, that other things are more important, that other things are more important, like my parents did. My parents were like my parents did. My parents were like my parents did. My parents were never afflicted with productivity never afflicted with productivity never afflicted with productivity culture beforehand. culture beforehand. culture beforehand. >> Right. >> Right. >> Right. >> So, >> So, >> So, that's interesting. And then this other that's interesting. And then this other that's interesting. And then this other story that it really gets me every and I story that it really gets me every and I story that it really gets me every and I I mentioned to you I just finished this I mentioned to you I just finished this I mentioned to you I just finished this silent meditation retreat, so my silent meditation retreat, so my silent meditation retreat, so my uh heart is particularly tender. But, I uh heart is particularly tender. But, I uh heart is particularly tender. But, I I went to a meetup when I first moved to I went to a meetup when I first moved to I went to a meetup when I first moved to Austin about 4 years ago, and it was a Austin about 4 years ago, and it was a Austin about 4 years ago, and it was a bunch of business owners, millionaires, bunch of business owners, millionaires, bunch of business owners, millionaires, and decamillionaires, and like a couple and decamillionaires, and like a couple and decamillionaires, and like a couple of centimillionaires in there, and of centimillionaires in there, and of centimillionaires in there, and everyone was a founder. I was by far the everyone was a founder. I was by far the everyone was a founder. I was by far the poorest person in the room. And poorest person in the room. And poorest person in the room. And uh they were all talking about um uh they were all talking about um uh they were all talking about um what they were doing with their what they were doing with their what they were doing with their businesses and plans. And oh, I know a businesses and plans. And oh, I know a businesses and plans. And oh, I know a guy that can get you in at Target, and guy that can get you in at Target, and guy that can get you in at Target, and so on and so forth. And I was like sat so on and so forth. And I was like sat so on and so forth. And I was like sat kind of silently, the white belt at the kind of silently, the white belt at the kind of silently, the white belt at the back of the class. And um it was a back of the class. And um it was a back of the class. And um it was a circle thing, and then someone dinged circle thing, and then someone dinged circle thing, and then someone dinged the glass and said um well we'll we'll the glass and said um well we'll we'll the glass and said um well we'll we'll we'll we'll we'll we'll we'll we'll have a little brainstorming session. If have a little brainstorming session. If have a little brainstorming session. If you've got a problem that you're dealing you've got a problem that you're dealing you've got a problem that you're dealing with at the moment, put your hands in with at the moment, put your hands in with at the moment, put your hands in the air. There's a lot of competent the air. There's a lot of competent the air. There's a lot of competent people in the room. people in the room. people in the room. We'll see if we can help you. And I'm We'll see if we can help you. And I'm We'll see if we can help you. And I'm thinking some guy's going to go, "I've thinking some guy's going to go, "I've thinking some guy's going to go, "I've got a massive problem with the IRS, and got a massive problem with the IRS, and got a massive problem with the IRS, and like trying to get my offshore accounts like trying to get my offshore accounts like trying to get my offshore accounts working, but the Cayman Islands don't working, but the Cayman Islands don't working, but the Cayman Islands don't like me." Some other stuff. like me." Some other stuff. like me." Some other stuff. This guy just went This guy just went This guy just went his hand straight in the air. He said, his hand straight in the air. He said, his hand straight in the air. He said, "My wife's 6 months pregnant, and I "My wife's 6 months pregnant, and I "My wife's 6 months pregnant, and I don't feel anything. don't feel anything. don't feel anything. >> Mhm. >> Mhm. >> Mhm. >> And I'm scared that I'm going to be a >> And I'm scared that I'm going to be a >> And I'm scared that I'm going to be a bad dad, and that I'm not going to love bad dad, and that I'm not going to love bad dad, and that I'm not going to love the baby. And she keeps asking me about the baby. And she keeps asking me about the baby. And she keeps asking me about how I feel, how I feel, how I feel, and there's nothing there. and there's nothing there. and there's nothing there. >> Mhm. >> Mhm. >> Mhm. >> And I I feel so guilty and ashamed about >> And I I feel so guilty and ashamed about >> And I I feel so guilty and ashamed about the fact that I I really want this, and the fact that I I really want this, and the fact that I I really want this, and I love my wife, and I want to be a good I love my wife, and I want to be a good I love my wife, and I want to be a good dad, and I'm terrified that I'm going to dad, and I'm terrified that I'm going to dad, and I'm terrified that I'm going to be I'm terrified I'm going to be a bad be I'm terrified I'm going to be a bad be I'm terrified I'm going to be a bad dad. I'm terrified I'm not going to be dad. I'm terrified I'm not going to be dad. I'm terrified I'm not going to be able to support her. I've got guilt and able to support her. I've got guilt and able to support her. I've got guilt and shame around I've got this secret. I shame around I've got this secret. I shame around I've got this secret. I feel like I'm keeping a secret from feel like I'm keeping a secret from feel like I'm keeping a secret from her." her." her." >> Mhm. >> Mhm. >> Mhm. >> The room was like, >> The room was like, >> The room was like, that wasn't what we were expecting. One that wasn't what we were expecting. One that wasn't what we were expecting. One of the guys over the far side straight of the guys over the far side straight of the guys over the far side straight away went, "Dude, don't worry about it. away went, "Dude, don't worry about it. away went, "Dude, don't worry about it. Happened to me. Happens every single Happened to me. Happens every single Happened to me. Happens every single another dad was like, "Every single another dad was like, "Every single another dad was like, "Every single time. Always happens." time. Always happens." time. Always happens." Wait 6 months, it'll all be fixed. Like, Wait 6 months, it'll all be fixed. Like, Wait 6 months, it'll all be fixed. Like, wait 6 months, lie with it are chest for wait 6 months, lie with it are chest for wait 6 months, lie with it are chest for a while. It gave all of the dad hacks, I a while. It gave all of the dad hacks, I a while. It gave all of the dad hacks, I guess. guess. guess. I just remember thinking like like I just remember thinking like like I just remember thinking like like this guy's in a room this guy's in a room this guy's in a room surrounded by really impressive business surrounded by really impressive business surrounded by really impressive business people and he was one too and he was people and he was one too and he was people and he was one too and he was competent, all the rest of it. He could competent, all the rest of it. He could competent, all the rest of it. He could have asked anything that he wanted about have asked anything that he wanted about have asked anything that he wanted about his business, but the most salient thing his business, but the most salient thing his business, but the most salient thing in his entire life was the fact that he in his entire life was the fact that he in his entire life was the fact that he was watching his wife was watching his wife was watching his wife go through the hormonal changes that go through the hormonal changes that go through the hormonal changes that make a mother, right? Pregnancy doesn't make a mother, right? Pregnancy doesn't make a mother, right? Pregnancy doesn't just make a baby, it also makes a just make a baby, it also makes a just make a baby, it also makes a mother. mother. mother. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> But pregnancy doesn't make a father in >> But pregnancy doesn't make a father in >> But pregnancy doesn't make a father in the same way. the same way. the same way. >> Right. >> Right. >> Right. >> Right. I >> Right. I >> Right. I I it makes him in some negative ways, I it makes him in some negative ways, I it makes him in some negative ways, sorry, the lack of sleep and the stress sorry, the lack of sleep and the stress sorry, the lack of sleep and the stress and you can you know, you've got the and you can you know, you've got the and you can you know, you've got the couvade syndrome or whatever it's couvade syndrome or whatever it's couvade syndrome or whatever it's called. called. called. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Um but it doesn't >> Um but it doesn't >> Um but it doesn't it doesn't prepare you in that way and it doesn't prepare you in that way and it doesn't prepare you in that way and then when you layer on top our ability then when you layer on top our ability then when you layer on top our ability to judge our own competence in these to judge our own competence in these to judge our own competence in these things, we think, well, what are you things, we think, well, what are you things, we think, well, what are you judging? Well, I'm judging? Well, I'm judging? Well, I'm judging how good of a dad I think I judging how good of a dad I think I judging how good of a dad I think I might be. Maybe I wasn't cut out for might be. Maybe I wasn't cut out for might be. Maybe I wasn't cut out for this. I wasn't a dad before. And I bet this. I wasn't a dad before. And I bet this. I wasn't a dad before. And I bet if you were to look at what could we if you were to look at what could we if you were to look at what could we call this? call this? call this? Like a potential parent guilt. Like a potential parent guilt. Like a potential parent guilt. >> Mhm. >> Mhm. >> Mhm. >> Um if you were to look at potential >> Um if you were to look at potential >> Um if you were to look at potential parent guilt or potential paternal guilt parent guilt or potential paternal guilt parent guilt or potential paternal guilt might be better. Um might be better. Um might be better. Um I bet that it doesn't happen on second I bet that it doesn't happen on second I bet that it doesn't happen on second kid. kid. kid. >> Mhm. Mhm. Yeah, I think this is a common >> Mhm. Mhm. Yeah, I think this is a common >> Mhm. Mhm. Yeah, I think this is a common thing that I hear from expectant dads thing that I hear from expectant dads thing that I hear from expectant dads that they're terrified that they're not that they're terrified that they're not that they're terrified that they're not going to know what to do, that they're going to know what to do, that they're going to know what to do, that they're not going to be good at it. And I think not going to be good at it. And I think not going to be good at it. And I think we expect men to be highly competent. we expect men to be highly competent. we expect men to be highly competent. You know, women too, but we really You know, women too, but we really You know, women too, but we really socialize men to be good at things. socialize men to be good at things. socialize men to be good at things. >> Mhm. >> Mhm. >> Mhm. >> And it's hard to be really good at >> And it's hard to be really good at >> And it's hard to be really good at taking care of a baby in the abstract taking care of a baby in the abstract taking care of a baby in the abstract because it's all about what does your because it's all about what does your because it's all about what does your particular baby need and how do you get particular baby need and how do you get particular baby need and how do you get to know your baby? And that's individual to know your baby? And that's individual to know your baby? And that's individual and it depends on your time and your and it depends on your time and your and it depends on your time and your motivation motivation motivation >> Yep. >> Yep. >> Yep. >> and your practice. But I think that idea >> and your practice. But I think that idea >> and your practice. But I think that idea that men are sort of flailing around that men are sort of flailing around that men are sort of flailing around really uncertain. really uncertain. really uncertain. I talked to a guy whose whole career is I talked to a guy whose whole career is I talked to a guy whose whole career is talking to startup entrepreneurs in talking to startup entrepreneurs in talking to startup entrepreneurs in Silicon Valley. And he says very similar Silicon Valley. And he says very similar Silicon Valley. And he says very similar story as yours. He's talked to men who story as yours. He's talked to men who story as yours. He's talked to men who are great at all kinds of, you know, are great at all kinds of, you know, are great at all kinds of, you know, conquering the business world. And yet conquering the business world. And yet conquering the business world. And yet when you get them onto the subject of when you get them onto the subject of when you get them onto the subject of their kids, they're all totally worried their kids, they're all totally worried their kids, they're all totally worried that they don't know what they're doing, that they don't know what they're doing, that they don't know what they're doing, right? It's a domain where right? It's a domain where right? It's a domain where we don't have that same sense of of we don't have that same sense of of we don't have that same sense of of skill and power and it's harder to skill and power and it's harder to skill and power and it's harder to optimize. optimize. optimize. And I would say, you know, you you And I would say, you know, you you And I would say, you know, you you mentioned this kind of self-optimization mentioned this kind of self-optimization mentioned this kind of self-optimization culture and productivity. culture and productivity. culture and productivity. And it's interesting if you watch the And it's interesting if you watch the And it's interesting if you watch the kind of like get ready with me videos or kind of like get ready with me videos or kind of like get ready with me videos or here are all the, you know, here's my here are all the, you know, here's my here are all the, you know, here's my regimen, here are all the things I do to regimen, here are all the things I do to regimen, here are all the things I do to completely, you know, bio hack my way to completely, you know, bio hack my way to completely, you know, bio hack my way to success. success. success. Frequently they're of someone who's Frequently they're of someone who's Frequently they're of someone who's alone. alone. alone. And they take a lot of time and they And they take a lot of time and they And they take a lot of time and they take a lot of solitary activity. take a lot of solitary activity. take a lot of solitary activity. And they're not necessarily about being And they're not necessarily about being And they're not necessarily about being connected, they're not about giving to connected, they're not about giving to connected, they're not about giving to other people, they're not about caring other people, they're not about caring other people, they're not about caring for someone who's vulnerable. for someone who's vulnerable. for someone who's vulnerable. And I would say when you think about And I would say when you think about And I would say when you think about what makes life worth living, a lot of what makes life worth living, a lot of what makes life worth living, a lot of it is about our relationship health. You it is about our relationship health. You it is about our relationship health. You know, that's what the best studies of know, that's what the best studies of know, that's what the best studies of longevity have told us. That's what work longevity have told us. That's what work longevity have told us. That's what work on men has told us that, you know, when on men has told us that, you know, when on men has told us that, you know, when men are socially isolated in late life, men are socially isolated in late life, men are socially isolated in late life, that's a real risk factor for early that's a real risk factor for early that's a real risk factor for early mortality. So how can men get more mortality. So how can men get more mortality. So how can men get more connected? Well, part of it is by connected? Well, part of it is by connected? Well, part of it is by devoting yourself to learning how to devoting yourself to learning how to devoting yourself to learning how to care care care for other people. And so again, going for other people. And so again, going for other people. And so again, going back to this idea of how do we reframe back to this idea of how do we reframe back to this idea of how do we reframe masculinity in more prosocial ways, masculinity in more prosocial ways, masculinity in more prosocial ways, it's manly to take care of vulnerable it's manly to take care of vulnerable it's manly to take care of vulnerable people. people. people. >> Well, I hope that >> Well, I hope that >> Well, I hope that when when when baby life does begin for me that baby life does begin for me that baby life does begin for me that everybody is ready for me to shove it everybody is ready for me to shove it everybody is ready for me to shove it down that throat for ages. It's just down that throat for ages. It's just down that throat for ages. It's just going to be an endless and like a a going to be an endless and like a a going to be an endless and like a a sickening barrage of fatherhood content. sickening barrage of fatherhood content. sickening barrage of fatherhood content. I can't wait. It's going to be It's I can't wait. It's going to be It's I can't wait. It's going to be It's going to be fantastic. going to be fantastic. going to be fantastic. >> You're going to be the new Dr. Becky. >> You're going to be the new Dr. Becky. >> You're going to be the new Dr. Becky. >> Yeah, that's Yeah, yeah, yeah. >> Yeah, that's Yeah, yeah, yeah. >> Yeah, that's Yeah, yeah, yeah. >> [laughter] >> [laughter] >> [laughter] >> We'll see about that. Um What do you >> We'll see about that. Um What do you >> We'll see about that. Um What do you think is the worst advice that new dads think is the worst advice that new dads think is the worst advice that new dads get? get? get? >> Well, we already talked about, you know, >> Well, we already talked about, you know, >> Well, we already talked about, you know, you can fix your relationship by having you can fix your relationship by having you can fix your relationship by having a baby. So, definitely that's very bad a baby. So, definitely that's very bad a baby. So, definitely that's very bad advice. advice. advice. >> The worst advice that potential dads >> The worst advice that potential dads >> The worst advice that potential dads could get. Yeah, yeah, yeah. could get. Yeah, yeah, yeah. could get. Yeah, yeah, yeah. >> I think other bad advice is just, you >> I think other bad advice is just, you >> I think other bad advice is just, you know, dads don't know what they're know, dads don't know what they're know, dads don't know what they're doing, so keep your distance. And I doing, so keep your distance. And I doing, so keep your distance. And I think there are these preconceptions think there are these preconceptions think there are these preconceptions around should we invest in paternity around should we invest in paternity around should we invest in paternity leave for new dads? Well, dads are leave for new dads? Well, dads are leave for new dads? Well, dads are useless in the early months. These useless in the early months. These useless in the early months. These they've got nothing to contribute. And I they've got nothing to contribute. And I they've got nothing to contribute. And I think that is bad advice because, as think that is bad advice because, as think that is bad advice because, as with moms, dads are capable of learning with moms, dads are capable of learning with moms, dads are capable of learning and their neurobiology is going to come and their neurobiology is going to come and their neurobiology is going to come along for the ride as they learn how to along for the ride as they learn how to along for the ride as they learn how to take care of kids. I think the other take care of kids. I think the other take care of kids. I think the other thing is we sometimes privilege early thing is we sometimes privilege early thing is we sometimes privilege early infancy as the sort of only time for infancy as the sort of only time for infancy as the sort of only time for dads to shine. dads to shine. dads to shine. And I talked to Dr. Reeves, who's And I talked to Dr. Reeves, who's And I talked to Dr. Reeves, who's written a lot about healthy masculinity. written a lot about healthy masculinity. written a lot about healthy masculinity. He said he thinks that men should be He said he thinks that men should be He said he thinks that men should be able to take paternity leave up to their able to take paternity leave up to their able to take paternity leave up to their kids' 14th or maybe even 18th birthday. kids' 14th or maybe even 18th birthday. kids' 14th or maybe even 18th birthday. >> Yeah, well, there's some roles, >> Yeah, well, there's some roles, >> Yeah, well, there's some roles, especially for dads with girls, around especially for dads with girls, around especially for dads with girls, around puberty, but are more important puberty, but are more important puberty, but are more important >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> than perhaps in early life. >> than perhaps in early life. >> than perhaps in early life. >> Yeah. And he told me he was a >> Yeah. And he told me he was a >> Yeah. And he told me he was a stay-at-home dad to his sons for a stay-at-home dad to his sons for a stay-at-home dad to his sons for a period when they were school age, and period when they were school age, and period when they were school age, and that was a great experience, and he that was a great experience, and he that was a great experience, and he loves taking his kids on trips and loves taking his kids on trips and loves taking his kids on trips and excursions. And so, I think there's a excursions. And so, I think there's a excursions. And so, I think there's a lot of value that dads can add at lot of value that dads can add at lot of value that dads can add at different stages along the lifespan. And different stages along the lifespan. And different stages along the lifespan. And I think when we decide that men don't I think when we decide that men don't I think when we decide that men don't know what they're doing, and we kind of know what they're doing, and we kind of know what they're doing, and we kind of opt them out of a key parenting role, opt them out of a key parenting role, opt them out of a key parenting role, we're losing that opportunity, and we're we're losing that opportunity, and we're we're losing that opportunity, and we're not giving them the windows in which to not giving them the windows in which to not giving them the windows in which to build their competence. build their competence. build their competence. >> I love it. Toby Saksby, ladies and >> I love it. Toby Saksby, ladies and >> I love it. Toby Saksby, ladies and gentlemen. You're great. I love your gentlemen. You're great. I love your gentlemen. You're great. I love your work. I think it's fantastic. It's brave work. I think it's fantastic. It's brave work. I think it's fantastic. It's brave to do this stuff and to talk about it, to do this stuff and to talk about it, to do this stuff and to talk about it, and I I the world's a better place for and I I the world's a better place for and I I the world's a better place for having you in it, so I appreciate you. having you in it, so I appreciate you. having you in it, so I appreciate you. >> Thank you. Real pleasure talking to you. >> Thank you. Real pleasure talking to you. >> Thank you. Real pleasure talking to you. >> All right. Goodbye, everybody. >> All right. Goodbye, everybody. >> All right. Goodbye, everybody. Yes, you did it. Yes, you did it. Yes, you did it. >> Yay! Fun. That was great. >> Yay! Fun. That was great. >> Yay! Fun. That was great. >> Congratulations, you made it to the end >> Congratulations, you made it to the end >> Congratulations, you made it to the end of a full podcast episode. You are not of a full podcast episode. You are not of a full podcast episode. You are not so TikTok brained that you've [music] so TikTok brained that you've [music] so TikTok brained that you've [music] completely dissolved into nothingness. completely dissolved into nothingness. completely dissolved into nothingness. Why not watch another one? Why not watch another one? Why not watch another one? Right here. Right here. Right here. Go on. Go on. Go on. Press it.