The Neuroscience of Likability, Social Connection, and Brain Health | Ben Rein

Hello everybody. Welcome to the 10% Hello everybody. Welcome to the 10% Happier podcast. I'm your host Dan Happier podcast. I'm your host Dan Happier podcast. I'm your host Dan Harris. I, as you probably know, think a Harris. I, as you probably know, think a Harris. I, as you probably know, think a lot about brain health. Not only because lot about brain health. Not only because lot about brain health. Not only because I want to be healthy and happy for as I want to be healthy and happy for as I want to be healthy and happy for as long as possible, but also because I long as possible, but also because I long as possible, but also because I have a dad with dementia, and that's have a dad with dementia, and that's have a dad with dementia, and that's been pretty hard to watch. Uh, if you been pretty hard to watch. Uh, if you been pretty hard to watch. Uh, if you pay any attention to brain health, pay any attention to brain health, pay any attention to brain health, you've probably run into what I call you've probably run into what I call you've probably run into what I call neuro [ __ ] online. um expensive, neuro [ __ ] online. um expensive, neuro [ __ ] online. um expensive, unproven interventions that people are unproven interventions that people are unproven interventions that people are pedalling on Instagram. But it turns out pedalling on Instagram. But it turns out pedalling on Instagram. But it turns out there's actually one really big secret there's actually one really big secret there's actually one really big secret for keeping your brain healthy. And uh for keeping your brain healthy. And uh for keeping your brain healthy. And uh it's completely free. Uh which brings me it's completely free. Uh which brings me it's completely free. Uh which brings me to my guest today, Dr. Ben Rin, who's a to my guest today, Dr. Ben Rin, who's a to my guest today, Dr. Ben Rin, who's a neuroscientist at Stanford and has neuroscientist at Stanford and has neuroscientist at Stanford and has written a book called Why Brains Need written a book called Why Brains Need written a book called Why Brains Need Friends. Dr. Ben Ryan, welcome to the Friends. Dr. Ben Ryan, welcome to the Friends. Dr. Ben Ryan, welcome to the show. show. show. >> Thank you so much for having me. I want >> Thank you so much for having me. I want >> Thank you so much for having me. I want to talk about your book in great detail, to talk about your book in great detail, to talk about your book in great detail, but let me just start with uh one of the but let me just start with uh one of the but let me just start with uh one of the ways in which you've made a name for ways in which you've made a name for ways in which you've made a name for yourself. Uh you've got a quite a large yourself. Uh you've got a quite a large yourself. Uh you've got a quite a large online following. One of the things online following. One of the things online following. One of the things you've done online, which I find very you've done online, which I find very you've done online, which I find very helpful, is debunk a lot of what I was helpful, is debunk a lot of what I was helpful, is debunk a lot of what I was calling neuro [ __ ] And so I'm just calling neuro [ __ ] And so I'm just calling neuro [ __ ] And so I'm just curious before we get into why brains curious before we get into why brains curious before we get into why brains need friends, what are some of the, you need friends, what are some of the, you need friends, what are some of the, you know, top offenders these days? Uh what know, top offenders these days? Uh what know, top offenders these days? Uh what are you seeing online that worries you? are you seeing online that worries you? are you seeing online that worries you? Well, first off, I I deeply appreciated Well, first off, I I deeply appreciated Well, first off, I I deeply appreciated that intro. As soon as you said that intro. As soon as you said that intro. As soon as you said neurobshit, I was like, this is perfect neurobshit, I was like, this is perfect neurobshit, I was like, this is perfect [laughter] because I mean, yeah, I've [laughter] because I mean, yeah, I've [laughter] because I mean, yeah, I've seen that it all started for me years seen that it all started for me years seen that it all started for me years ago and I kind of went viral on accident ago and I kind of went viral on accident ago and I kind of went viral on accident and was like, do I want to do this or and was like, do I want to do this or and was like, do I want to do this or not? Is this worth it? Is this good for not? Is this worth it? Is this good for not? Is this worth it? Is this good for my career? And then I started engaging my career? And then I started engaging my career? And then I started engaging with the social platforms more and with the social platforms more and with the social platforms more and discovered that so much of what people discovered that so much of what people discovered that so much of what people consider like scientific education consider like scientific education consider like scientific education online is actually far from scientific online is actually far from scientific online is actually far from scientific education. there's a ton of education. there's a ton of education. there's a ton of misinformation out there and it's just misinformation out there and it's just misinformation out there and it's just pretty bad honestly. So that's why I pretty bad honestly. So that's why I pretty bad honestly. So that's why I kind of started doing what I was doing kind of started doing what I was doing kind of started doing what I was doing with the debunking and factchecking with the debunking and factchecking with the debunking and factchecking because for me it's very simple. It's because for me it's very simple. It's because for me it's very simple. It's like someone makes a claim online, like someone makes a claim online, like someone makes a claim online, they're probably referencing some data. they're probably referencing some data. they're probably referencing some data. Let's find the data and let's see if Let's find the data and let's see if Let's find the data and let's see if it's true. So I mean when it comes to it's true. So I mean when it comes to it's true. So I mean when it comes to the most common offenders, gosh, of the most common offenders, gosh, of the most common offenders, gosh, of course like we all know about the uh the course like we all know about the uh the course like we all know about the uh the big ones that have been circulating a big ones that have been circulating a big ones that have been circulating a lot these days, you know, autism and lot these days, you know, autism and lot these days, you know, autism and vaccines and all that. um as a person vaccines and all that. um as a person vaccines and all that. um as a person who did my PhD in the neurobiology of who did my PhD in the neurobiology of who did my PhD in the neurobiology of autism and you know when I was doing my autism and you know when I was doing my autism and you know when I was doing my PhD I had people coming to me and saying PhD I had people coming to me and saying PhD I had people coming to me and saying gosh I hope you start looking into gosh I hope you start looking into gosh I hope you start looking into vaccines and you know I learned pretty vaccines and you know I learned pretty vaccines and you know I learned pretty early in my PhD the first time someone early in my PhD the first time someone early in my PhD the first time someone said that to me and I looked up in the said that to me and I looked up in the said that to me and I looked up in the literature that there's been studies literature that there's been studies literature that there's been studies with millions of children showing that with millions of children showing that with millions of children showing that autism is not linked to vaccination. So, autism is not linked to vaccination. So, autism is not linked to vaccination. So, of course, and now we have Tylenol and, of course, and now we have Tylenol and, of course, and now we have Tylenol and, you know, a lot of other uh offenders you know, a lot of other uh offenders you know, a lot of other uh offenders coming out these days, but you know, I I coming out these days, but you know, I I coming out these days, but you know, I I think probably the thing I see the most think probably the thing I see the most think probably the thing I see the most is like it used to be psychology says do is like it used to be psychology says do is like it used to be psychology says do this, you know, for happiness or this, you know, for happiness or this, you know, for happiness or whatever, and now it's neuroscience says whatever, and now it's neuroscience says whatever, and now it's neuroscience says or I'm a neuroscientist and this is what or I'm a neuroscientist and this is what or I'm a neuroscientist and this is what I think you should do. And I think I think you should do. And I think I think you should do. And I think probably the the most common is probably the the most common is probably the the most common is supplements because maybe coincidentally supplements because maybe coincidentally supplements because maybe coincidentally they are an easy way to uh they're an they are an easy way to uh they're an they are an easy way to uh they're an easy item to be sold on social media. easy item to be sold on social media. easy item to be sold on social media. And so when you're giving someone a And so when you're giving someone a And so when you're giving someone a basically a prescription and then basically a prescription and then basically a prescription and then there's a 10% coupon, you know, uh it's there's a 10% coupon, you know, uh it's there's a 10% coupon, you know, uh it's a pretty easy way to make money if a pretty easy way to make money if a pretty easy way to make money if you're framing yourself as a you're framing yourself as a you're framing yourself as a neuroscientist. So something I recently neuroscientist. So something I recently neuroscientist. So something I recently started doing actually was this video started doing actually was this video started doing actually was this video series where I call it do supplements series where I call it do supplements series where I call it do supplements really work and I go through supplement really work and I go through supplement really work and I go through supplement by supplement and break down like here's by supplement and break down like here's by supplement and break down like here's the actual evidence. Here's what people the actual evidence. Here's what people the actual evidence. Here's what people say it does. Does it actually do it? At say it does. Does it actually do it? At say it does. Does it actually do it? At least in in some clinical trials hasn't least in in some clinical trials hasn't least in in some clinical trials hasn't been shown to do that and you know take been shown to do that and you know take been shown to do that and you know take that as you will. If you want to use it, that as you will. If you want to use it, that as you will. If you want to use it, go for it. But here's what the evidence go for it. But here's what the evidence go for it. But here's what the evidence says. Is there anything you found that says. Is there anything you found that says. Is there anything you found that actually might help uh the brain? actually might help uh the brain? actually might help uh the brain? >> I have to admit I've been a little bit >> I have to admit I've been a little bit >> I have to admit I've been a little bit surprised by some of them because surprised by some of them because surprised by some of them because there's so many supplements out there there's so many supplements out there there's so many supplements out there and so many claims for each supplement and so many claims for each supplement and so many claims for each supplement that it feels like the whole supplement that it feels like the whole supplement that it feels like the whole supplement space is kind of garbage and doomed. space is kind of garbage and doomed. space is kind of garbage and doomed. When I started looking into it, I was When I started looking into it, I was When I started looking into it, I was actually a little bit surprised. Like actually a little bit surprised. Like actually a little bit surprised. Like for instance, uh Ashwagandha, people say for instance, uh Ashwagandha, people say for instance, uh Ashwagandha, people say it's like good for stress. I looked it it's like good for stress. I looked it it's like good for stress. I looked it up. There are some studies showing it up. There are some studies showing it up. There are some studies showing it reduces cortisol levels. Okay, that's a reduces cortisol levels. Okay, that's a reduces cortisol levels. Okay, that's a good sign. Um, magnesium for sleep. I'll good sign. Um, magnesium for sleep. I'll good sign. Um, magnesium for sleep. I'll admit I take magnesium for sleep, but admit I take magnesium for sleep, but admit I take magnesium for sleep, but I'm also I have a magnesium deficiency, I'm also I have a magnesium deficiency, I'm also I have a magnesium deficiency, so I don't know if that's representative so I don't know if that's representative so I don't know if that's representative of the average person. I find it helps a of the average person. I find it helps a of the average person. I find it helps a lot. There are studies showing that it's lot. There are studies showing that it's lot. There are studies showing that it's helpful for insomnia. Uh, but, you know, helpful for insomnia. Uh, but, you know, helpful for insomnia. Uh, but, you know, for every every one that I find some for every every one that I find some for every every one that I find some evidence that's really promising. evidence that's really promising. evidence that's really promising. There's other evidence for other There's other evidence for other There's other evidence for other supplements that looks kind of poor. supplements that looks kind of poor. supplements that looks kind of poor. And, you know, like colostrum is a good And, you know, like colostrum is a good And, you know, like colostrum is a good one. There's like no scientific evidence one. There's like no scientific evidence one. There's like no scientific evidence for like any of the things people say on for like any of the things people say on for like any of the things people say on social media. sorry to colostrum social media. sorry to colostrum social media. sorry to colostrum companies, but I mean that's, you know, companies, but I mean that's, you know, companies, but I mean that's, you know, you're if you're going to make a claim you're if you're going to make a claim you're if you're going to make a claim to sell a product, you should have to sell a product, you should have to sell a product, you should have evidence for that claim. That's my evidence for that claim. That's my evidence for that claim. That's my opinion. opinion. opinion. >> Just to say, and this is um this is not >> Just to say, and this is um this is not >> Just to say, and this is um this is not aimed at you, that this is aimed at the aimed at you, that this is aimed at the aimed at you, that this is aimed at the viewers and listeners. If you're viewers and listeners. If you're viewers and listeners. If you're interested in taking a supplement, interested in taking a supplement, interested in taking a supplement, including any of the ones that Dr. Ryan including any of the ones that Dr. Ryan including any of the ones that Dr. Ryan just mentioned, please talk to your just mentioned, please talk to your just mentioned, please talk to your doctor first. Okay, having gotten that doctor first. Okay, having gotten that doctor first. Okay, having gotten that out of the way. So, another thing you out of the way. So, another thing you out of the way. So, another thing you hear online as neuroscientific, is that hear online as neuroscientific, is that hear online as neuroscientific, is that sugar is more addictive than cocaine. sugar is more addictive than cocaine. sugar is more addictive than cocaine. True or false? True or false? True or false? >> False. Um, hardly anything is more >> False. Um, hardly anything is more >> False. Um, hardly anything is more addictive than cocaine. I mean, the the addictive than cocaine. I mean, the the addictive than cocaine. I mean, the the reason why you can kind of like reason why you can kind of like reason why you can kind of like handwaveily make the claim that sugar is handwaveily make the claim that sugar is handwaveily make the claim that sugar is is addictive and actually sugar can be is addictive and actually sugar can be is addictive and actually sugar can be addictive is because it it stimulates addictive is because it it stimulates addictive is because it it stimulates dopamine. And dopamine is like the key dopamine. And dopamine is like the key dopamine. And dopamine is like the key to reinforcement in the brain. And by to reinforcement in the brain. And by to reinforcement in the brain. And by that I mean you do something, your brain that I mean you do something, your brain that I mean you do something, your brain has a dopamine release and your has a dopamine release and your has a dopamine release and your emotional reaction to this is, "Wow, emotional reaction to this is, "Wow, emotional reaction to this is, "Wow, that was great. I want to do that that was great. I want to do that that was great. I want to do that again." You know, that's the whole point again." You know, that's the whole point again." You know, that's the whole point of dopamine. And so anything that of dopamine. And so anything that of dopamine. And so anything that stimulates dopamine release is going to stimulates dopamine release is going to stimulates dopamine release is going to have some sort of like addictive have some sort of like addictive have some sort of like addictive liability, I suppose. And sugar is one liability, I suppose. And sugar is one liability, I suppose. And sugar is one of those things, which is why, you know, of those things, which is why, you know, of those things, which is why, you know, you you crave sugar, tastes good, you you you crave sugar, tastes good, you you you crave sugar, tastes good, you want to have more of it. Um, but cocaine want to have more of it. Um, but cocaine want to have more of it. Um, but cocaine is on a completely different level is on a completely different level is on a completely different level because what cocaine does is it goes because what cocaine does is it goes because what cocaine does is it goes straight into the brain areas that are straight into the brain areas that are straight into the brain areas that are releasing dopamine and it just dumps releasing dopamine and it just dumps releasing dopamine and it just dumps dopamine out. It actually kind of uh dopamine out. It actually kind of uh dopamine out. It actually kind of uh hijacks the transporter for dopamine and hijacks the transporter for dopamine and hijacks the transporter for dopamine and causes it to be dumped out. So, it's causes it to be dumped out. So, it's causes it to be dumped out. So, it's it's just a completely different kind of it's just a completely different kind of it's just a completely different kind of level of dopamine stimulation, which is level of dopamine stimulation, which is level of dopamine stimulation, which is why it's so addictive. Can sugar be why it's so addictive. Can sugar be why it's so addictive. Can sugar be addictive? Certainly. But do you need addictive? Certainly. But do you need addictive? Certainly. But do you need sugar? You know, there's a reason sugar sugar? You know, there's a reason sugar sugar? You know, there's a reason sugar tastes good and stimulates dopamine tastes good and stimulates dopamine tastes good and stimulates dopamine because it's a a great source of because it's a a great source of because it's a a great source of immediate energy and fuel. And so, your immediate energy and fuel. And so, your immediate energy and fuel. And so, your body, you know, your brain is wired to body, you know, your brain is wired to body, you know, your brain is wired to tell you this is, you know, easy to use tell you this is, you know, easy to use tell you this is, you know, easy to use fuel um and easy to store as fat, so you fuel um and easy to store as fat, so you fuel um and easy to store as fat, so you should eat more of it. whereas cocaine should eat more of it. whereas cocaine should eat more of it. whereas cocaine is just like hitting those brain centers is just like hitting those brain centers is just like hitting those brain centers and just telling you go back. and just telling you go back. and just telling you go back. >> Okay. So, so as we've established, >> Okay. So, so as we've established, >> Okay. So, so as we've established, there's a lot of stuff that's there's a lot of stuff that's there's a lot of stuff that's masquerading as neuroscience online and masquerading as neuroscience online and masquerading as neuroscience online and actually is not. We've also established actually is not. We've also established actually is not. We've also established that often people will use neuroscience that often people will use neuroscience that often people will use neuroscience to sell you stuff. Uh but as as I to sell you stuff. Uh but as as I to sell you stuff. Uh but as as I mentioned in the intro and as is the mentioned in the intro and as is the mentioned in the intro and as is the core thesis of your new book, there's core thesis of your new book, there's core thesis of your new book, there's actually a really powerful if not the actually a really powerful if not the actually a really powerful if not the most powerful intervention and it most powerful intervention and it most powerful intervention and it doesn't cost any money at all. So, what doesn't cost any money at all. So, what doesn't cost any money at all. So, what is that? that intervention would be is that? that intervention would be is that? that intervention would be social interaction, social connection as social interaction, social connection as social interaction, social connection as it's named in the the book title. Um it's named in the the book title. Um it's named in the the book title. Um yeah, human beings are wired for yeah, human beings are wired for yeah, human beings are wired for connection. We've heard that before connection. We've heard that before connection. We've heard that before probably. Um or some variation of that. probably. Um or some variation of that. probably. Um or some variation of that. But the depth to which interaction But the depth to which interaction But the depth to which interaction influences our biology and our mood is influences our biology and our mood is influences our biology and our mood is unbelievable. It is it touches on so unbelievable. It is it touches on so unbelievable. It is it touches on so many systems uh you know our bones, our many systems uh you know our bones, our many systems uh you know our bones, our immune system, our skin healing in immune system, our skin healing in immune system, our skin healing in addition to of course our brains, our addition to of course our brains, our addition to of course our brains, our hearts, you know being isolated hearts, you know being isolated hearts, you know being isolated increases your risk for dementia, increases your risk for dementia, increases your risk for dementia, stroke, uh heart disease, diabetes, not stroke, uh heart disease, diabetes, not stroke, uh heart disease, diabetes, not to mention depression, anxiety, suicide. to mention depression, anxiety, suicide. to mention depression, anxiety, suicide. I mean it is so important and in an era I mean it is so important and in an era I mean it is so important and in an era where we are living through a loneliness where we are living through a loneliness where we are living through a loneliness epidemic uh and an era of also epidemic uh and an era of also epidemic uh and an era of also technology and AI and you know remote technology and AI and you know remote technology and AI and you know remote interaction here we are Dan you know interaction here we are Dan you know interaction here we are Dan you know virtually um it's the standard now I I virtually um it's the standard now I I virtually um it's the standard now I I worry that we're losing sight of worry that we're losing sight of worry that we're losing sight of something that's unbelievably important something that's unbelievably important something that's unbelievably important for our health. for our health. for our health. >> I believe you you say that interaction >> I believe you you say that interaction >> I believe you you say that interaction is medicine for the brain. So like walk is medicine for the brain. So like walk is medicine for the brain. So like walk us through exactly how you know what are us through exactly how you know what are us through exactly how you know what are the what's happening in our brain and the what's happening in our brain and the what's happening in our brain and what are the downstream effects what are the downstream effects what are the downstream effects >> when you connect with someone and you're >> when you connect with someone and you're >> when you connect with someone and you're having a positive interaction. There are having a positive interaction. There are having a positive interaction. There are three neurotransmitters happening and three neurotransmitters happening and three neurotransmitters happening and being released in the brain that being released in the brain that being released in the brain that together are responsible for something together are responsible for something together are responsible for something called social reward. This is this you called social reward. This is this you called social reward. This is this you know this feeling of just like sugar is know this feeling of just like sugar is know this feeling of just like sugar is pleasant you want to have more of it. pleasant you want to have more of it. pleasant you want to have more of it. Social interaction is pleasant. you're Social interaction is pleasant. you're Social interaction is pleasant. you're having a good time with your friends, having a good time with your friends, having a good time with your friends, your spouse, whoever it may be, you want your spouse, whoever it may be, you want your spouse, whoever it may be, you want to have more interaction with them. to have more interaction with them. to have more interaction with them. Those three neurotransmitters are Those three neurotransmitters are Those three neurotransmitters are oxytocin, which is, you know, the love oxytocin, which is, you know, the love oxytocin, which is, you know, the love hormone, social bonding kind of hormone, social bonding kind of hormone, social bonding kind of molecule, serotonin, and dopamine. And molecule, serotonin, and dopamine. And molecule, serotonin, and dopamine. And of course, both serotonin and dopamine of course, both serotonin and dopamine of course, both serotonin and dopamine are are rather well known for their, you are are rather well known for their, you are are rather well known for their, you know, mood supporting and uh, you know, know, mood supporting and uh, you know, know, mood supporting and uh, you know, positive emotionromoting effects. But positive emotionromoting effects. But positive emotionromoting effects. But those three neurotransmitters together those three neurotransmitters together those three neurotransmitters together are a really powerful concoction. In are a really powerful concoction. In are a really powerful concoction. In fact, one of the things that I I love to fact, one of the things that I I love to fact, one of the things that I I love to point out is that if you look for a drug point out is that if you look for a drug point out is that if you look for a drug that has the same effect or at least a that has the same effect or at least a that has the same effect or at least a pretty strong overlap with those pretty strong overlap with those pretty strong overlap with those neurotransmitters, one of the only drugs neurotransmitters, one of the only drugs neurotransmitters, one of the only drugs out there you'll find is MDMA, ecstasy. out there you'll find is MDMA, ecstasy. out there you'll find is MDMA, ecstasy. And the fact that interacting and And the fact that interacting and And the fact that interacting and connecting with others stimulates the connecting with others stimulates the connecting with others stimulates the same brain pathways as ecstasy tells you same brain pathways as ecstasy tells you same brain pathways as ecstasy tells you one why people who interact more are at one why people who interact more are at one why people who interact more are at lower risk for anxiety and depression lower risk for anxiety and depression lower risk for anxiety and depression and two how important social interaction and two how important social interaction and two how important social interaction has been historically for the human has been historically for the human has been historically for the human species that our brains have wired to species that our brains have wired to species that our brains have wired to make us feel good for being around make us feel good for being around make us feel good for being around others. I like to think about connection others. I like to think about connection others. I like to think about connection as kind of a two-sided coin. On one side as kind of a two-sided coin. On one side as kind of a two-sided coin. On one side we have everything I just said. we have everything I just said. we have everything I just said. Interaction makes you feel good. It Interaction makes you feel good. It Interaction makes you feel good. It stimulates the brain in a special way. stimulates the brain in a special way. stimulates the brain in a special way. It makes you feel great and want to come It makes you feel great and want to come It makes you feel great and want to come back. On the other side, we have back. On the other side, we have back. On the other side, we have isolation. And it's not just that when isolation. And it's not just that when isolation. And it's not just that when you're isolated and when you're not you're isolated and when you're not you're isolated and when you're not connecting, you're missing out on all connecting, you're missing out on all connecting, you're missing out on all the great stuff I just described. It's the great stuff I just described. It's the great stuff I just described. It's actually that isolation has its own kind actually that isolation has its own kind actually that isolation has its own kind of biological profile that's not good, of biological profile that's not good, of biological profile that's not good, like specifically bad for you. What like specifically bad for you. What like specifically bad for you. What happens is when we're isolated, it's it happens is when we're isolated, it's it happens is when we're isolated, it's it triggers a stress response. Our cortisol triggers a stress response. Our cortisol triggers a stress response. Our cortisol levels start to go up. And when cortisol levels start to go up. And when cortisol levels start to go up. And when cortisol levels go up, something that happens is levels go up, something that happens is levels go up, something that happens is in the short term, our inflammation is in the short term, our inflammation is in the short term, our inflammation is suppressed. Because in a, you know, suppressed. Because in a, you know, suppressed. Because in a, you know, short-term fight orflight situation, short-term fight orflight situation, short-term fight orflight situation, it's not useful to have inflammation. We it's not useful to have inflammation. We it's not useful to have inflammation. We need to put that inflammation away and need to put that inflammation away and need to put that inflammation away and get ready to fight. But over the long get ready to fight. But over the long get ready to fight. But over the long run, if we're continuously stressed and run, if we're continuously stressed and run, if we're continuously stressed and our cortisol remains high, kind of the our cortisol remains high, kind of the our cortisol remains high, kind of the opposite happens because instead of opposite happens because instead of opposite happens because instead of suppressing inflammation that your suppressing inflammation that your suppressing inflammation that your tissues, your heart, brain, etc., tissues, your heart, brain, etc., tissues, your heart, brain, etc., they're like, "All right, this cortisol they're like, "All right, this cortisol they're like, "All right, this cortisol has been here a long time. I can't keep has been here a long time. I can't keep has been here a long time. I can't keep suppressing inflammation. So, I'm just suppressing inflammation. So, I'm just suppressing inflammation. So, I'm just going to kind of start ignoring the going to kind of start ignoring the going to kind of start ignoring the cortisol, which can over time lead to a cortisol, which can over time lead to a cortisol, which can over time lead to a buildup of inflammation. Chronic buildup of inflammation. Chronic buildup of inflammation. Chronic inflammation is something that's not inflammation is something that's not inflammation is something that's not good. It's not something that you want. good. It's not something that you want. good. It's not something that you want. And there's evidence actually that this And there's evidence actually that this And there's evidence actually that this buildup of inflammation in organs like buildup of inflammation in organs like buildup of inflammation in organs like the brain and in like the arteries, the brain and in like the arteries, the brain and in like the arteries, atherosclerosis, all this um is just atherosclerosis, all this um is just atherosclerosis, all this um is just detrimental to organ function. And detrimental to organ function. And detrimental to organ function. And specifically in the brain, there's this specifically in the brain, there's this specifically in the brain, there's this one study I love. It's so interesting. one study I love. It's so interesting. one study I love. It's so interesting. They found that they were actually They found that they were actually They found that they were actually studying stroke. They were trying to studying stroke. They were trying to studying stroke. They were trying to look at how the brain recovers after a look at how the brain recovers after a look at how the brain recovers after a stroke. And they were doing this in stroke. And they were doing this in stroke. And they were doing this in mice. And so they were inducing a stroke mice. And so they were inducing a stroke mice. And so they were inducing a stroke should have been the exact same stroke should have been the exact same stroke should have been the exact same stroke across all of the mice because, you across all of the mice because, you across all of the mice because, you know, these were scientists, really well know, these were scientists, really well know, these were scientists, really well controlled. But some of the mice had controlled. But some of the mice had controlled. But some of the mice had much bigger strokes than others and had, much bigger strokes than others and had, much bigger strokes than others and had, you know, much poorer recovery. They had you know, much poorer recovery. They had you know, much poorer recovery. They had worse symptoms. They were more likely to worse symptoms. They were more likely to worse symptoms. They were more likely to die. Turns out those mice with the worst die. Turns out those mice with the worst die. Turns out those mice with the worst strokes were living alone. They just strokes were living alone. They just strokes were living alone. They just happen to be living alone in their happen to be living alone in their happen to be living alone in their cages. So the researchers suspected cages. So the researchers suspected cages. So the researchers suspected maybe this has something to do with the maybe this has something to do with the maybe this has something to do with the inflammation buildup from isolation. inflammation buildup from isolation. inflammation buildup from isolation. Before they induced the stroke, they Before they induced the stroke, they Before they induced the stroke, they suppressed the inflammation. Then the suppressed the inflammation. Then the suppressed the inflammation. Then the stroke happened. No longer was the stroke happened. No longer was the stroke happened. No longer was the stroke much larger. And so you think stroke much larger. And so you think stroke much larger. And so you think about this playing out in like real life about this playing out in like real life about this playing out in like real life with humans. And of course we shouldn't with humans. And of course we shouldn't with humans. And of course we shouldn't extrapolate from mouse research to human extrapolate from mouse research to human extrapolate from mouse research to human research, but there is similar evidence research, but there is similar evidence research, but there is similar evidence in in humans that you know isolated in in humans that you know isolated in in humans that you know isolated people have higher uh inflammatory people have higher uh inflammatory people have higher uh inflammatory burden. And when isolated people have a burden. And when isolated people have a burden. And when isolated people have a stroke, they have worse strokes. So we stroke, they have worse strokes. So we stroke, they have worse strokes. So we could think about this playing out in could think about this playing out in could think about this playing out in the real population where you have this the real population where you have this the real population where you have this buildup of inflammation, suddenly buildup of inflammation, suddenly buildup of inflammation, suddenly something happens. You have a stroke, something happens. You have a stroke, something happens. You have a stroke, you have a heart attack, you have a you have a heart attack, you have a you have a heart attack, you have a fall, and what happens next is is really fall, and what happens next is is really fall, and what happens next is is really important because basically either your important because basically either your important because basically either your body is going to be resilient and it's body is going to be resilient and it's body is going to be resilient and it's going to be able to kind of handle and going to be able to kind of handle and going to be able to kind of handle and tolerate and adapt to this shift or it's tolerate and adapt to this shift or it's tolerate and adapt to this shift or it's not going to handle it very well at all. not going to handle it very well at all. not going to handle it very well at all. And that's kind of the the big And that's kind of the the big And that's kind of the the big difference between, you know, who has a difference between, you know, who has a difference between, you know, who has a healthy outcome, who doesn't, well, healthy outcome, who doesn't, well, healthy outcome, who doesn't, well, who's returning to a home with loved who's returning to a home with loved who's returning to a home with loved ones and who's going back into a home ones and who's going back into a home ones and who's going back into a home after exiting the hospital and living after exiting the hospital and living after exiting the hospital and living alone. So, it's kind of a subliminal alone. So, it's kind of a subliminal alone. So, it's kind of a subliminal quiet thing that's playing out quiet thing that's playing out quiet thing that's playing out throughout our society um and throughout our society um and throughout our society um and influencing a lot of different brain and influencing a lot of different brain and influencing a lot of different brain and body systems. body systems. body systems. >> What is inflammation? >> What is inflammation? >> What is inflammation? >> Okay, it's a great question. And to be >> Okay, it's a great question. And to be >> Okay, it's a great question. And to be honest, this is like kind of honest, this is like kind of honest, this is like kind of embarrassing. I feel like I shouldn't be embarrassing. I feel like I shouldn't be embarrassing. I feel like I shouldn't be the one to answer it because I can give the one to answer it because I can give the one to answer it because I can give you like my neuroscience explanation of you like my neuroscience explanation of you like my neuroscience explanation of it, but it's it's one of those things it, but it's it's one of those things it, but it's it's one of those things that I fear I will butcher. It's kind of that I fear I will butcher. It's kind of that I fear I will butcher. It's kind of like if you ask like an immunologist to like if you ask like an immunologist to like if you ask like an immunologist to explain like synaptic transmission. It's explain like synaptic transmission. It's explain like synaptic transmission. It's like I probably shouldn't. like I probably shouldn't. like I probably shouldn't. >> But roughly speaking, it is the body's >> But roughly speaking, it is the body's >> But roughly speaking, it is the body's response to an injury or an illness. And response to an injury or an illness. And response to an injury or an illness. And what you don't want is uh antibodies what you don't want is uh antibodies what you don't want is uh antibodies flooding the zone and the body um acting flooding the zone and the body um acting flooding the zone and the body um acting as if it's had some sort of insult all as if it's had some sort of insult all as if it's had some sort of insult all the time, which is what isolation does the time, which is what isolation does the time, which is what isolation does to us, to us, to us, >> right? Yeah. I mean, I guess this is how >> right? Yeah. I mean, I guess this is how >> right? Yeah. I mean, I guess this is how I imagine it. And I picture a bunch of I imagine it. And I picture a bunch of I imagine it. And I picture a bunch of inflammation um in the brain and then a inflammation um in the brain and then a inflammation um in the brain and then a stroke occurs, right? There's a there's stroke occurs, right? There's a there's stroke occurs, right? There's a there's a an event where the blood flow is a an event where the blood flow is a an event where the blood flow is restricted, the nutrients are are restricted, the nutrients are are restricted, the nutrients are are restricted for some short time and a restricted for some short time and a restricted for some short time and a number of brain cells die. Probably the number of brain cells die. Probably the number of brain cells die. Probably the number of cells that die in that event number of cells that die in that event number of cells that die in that event will be higher if they're already kind will be higher if they're already kind will be higher if they're already kind of surrounded with inflammation that's of surrounded with inflammation that's of surrounded with inflammation that's interfering with the ability to, you interfering with the ability to, you interfering with the ability to, you know, function typically. And then also know, function typically. And then also know, function typically. And then also when the kind of restorative process when the kind of restorative process when the kind of restorative process after a stroke is unfolding and you know after a stroke is unfolding and you know after a stroke is unfolding and you know the cells are trying to recover if the cells are trying to recover if the cells are trying to recover if there's all this inflammation built up there's all this inflammation built up there's all this inflammation built up that's blocking the way then it's also that's blocking the way then it's also that's blocking the way then it's also not going to be good. Again this is like not going to be good. Again this is like not going to be good. Again this is like an incredibly naive like stroke is not an incredibly naive like stroke is not an incredibly naive like stroke is not my area. Um but that's kind of how I my area. Um but that's kind of how I my area. Um but that's kind of how I think about it at least. think about it at least. think about it at least. >> You've issued all the right caveats and >> You've issued all the right caveats and >> You've issued all the right caveats and been as as uh humble as one can expect. been as as uh humble as one can expect. been as as uh humble as one can expect. This is the problem online when people This is the problem online when people This is the problem online when people don't issue caveats and have no don't issue caveats and have no don't issue caveats and have no humility. So I think you're good. A few humility. So I think you're good. A few humility. So I think you're good. A few things before we hear from our sponsors. things before we hear from our sponsors. things before we hear from our sponsors. 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Speaking of the studies uh of the Speaking of the studies uh of the science here around the dangers of science here around the dangers of science here around the dangers of isolation, of having insufficient isolation, of having insufficient isolation, of having insufficient interpersonal interaction, I believe interpersonal interaction, I believe interpersonal interaction, I believe there was one study that showed and this there was one study that showed and this there was one study that showed and this was a study of over 300,000 people that was a study of over 300,000 people that was a study of over 300,000 people that found that people with weaker social found that people with weaker social found that people with weaker social relationships are 50% more likely to die relationships are 50% more likely to die relationships are 50% more likely to die over a seven and a half year period. Am over a seven and a half year period. Am over a seven and a half year period. Am I am I is this all correct? I am I is this all correct? I am I is this all correct? >> No, you're right. Yeah, I I I think that >> No, you're right. Yeah, I I I think that >> No, you're right. Yeah, I I I think that particular study may have been kind of particular study may have been kind of particular study may have been kind of flipped that the exact finding may have flipped that the exact finding may have flipped that the exact finding may have been that those who were more socialized been that those who were more socialized been that those who were more socialized were 50% less likely to die. Um so that were 50% less likely to die. Um so that were 50% less likely to die. Um so that effect similar um but there's there are effect similar um but there's there are effect similar um but there's there are also other larger studies with like also other larger studies with like also other larger studies with like millions of people that have found 32% millions of people that have found 32% millions of people that have found 32% higher risk of mortality uh death by any higher risk of mortality uh death by any higher risk of mortality uh death by any cause in those who are isolated. And so cause in those who are isolated. And so cause in those who are isolated. And so that's kind of how I I think about this that's kind of how I I think about this that's kind of how I I think about this as well is like nobody dies of as well is like nobody dies of as well is like nobody dies of loneliness, right? But if you have this loneliness, right? But if you have this loneliness, right? But if you have this quiet health burden that's influencing quiet health burden that's influencing quiet health burden that's influencing your brain and your heart and all these your brain and your heart and all these your brain and your heart and all these tissues and then you have a heart attack tissues and then you have a heart attack tissues and then you have a heart attack or you have a stroke, are you going to or you have a stroke, are you going to or you have a stroke, are you going to have a lower likelihood of recovering? have a lower likelihood of recovering? have a lower likelihood of recovering? Are you going to have a higher Are you going to have a higher Are you going to have a higher likelihood of death? Uh and that's I likelihood of death? Uh and that's I likelihood of death? Uh and that's I think how we kind of end up with these think how we kind of end up with these think how we kind of end up with these these kind of shocking numbers of 32 or these kind of shocking numbers of 32 or these kind of shocking numbers of 32 or 50% higher likelihood of death by any 50% higher likelihood of death by any 50% higher likelihood of death by any cause. And another thing too is I think cause. And another thing too is I think cause. And another thing too is I think about the social support that community about the social support that community about the social support that community provides. Um, and there like there are provides. Um, and there like there are provides. Um, and there like there are some studies really interesting. I some studies really interesting. I some studies really interesting. I there's a section in the book all about there's a section in the book all about there's a section in the book all about dogs and pets and why it's good to have dogs and pets and why it's good to have dogs and pets and why it's good to have a pet and why it's good for you. And in a pet and why it's good for you. And in a pet and why it's good for you. And in one of the studies they had people go one of the studies they had people go one of the studies they had people go through really stressful experiences through really stressful experiences through really stressful experiences like you know doing math in front of an like you know doing math in front of an like you know doing math in front of an audience or putting their hand into an audience or putting their hand into an audience or putting their hand into an ice bath or something uncomfortable with ice bath or something uncomfortable with ice bath or something uncomfortable with or without their pet in the room. And or without their pet in the room. And or without their pet in the room. And what they found is that basically people what they found is that basically people what they found is that basically people had lower more manageable stress had lower more manageable stress had lower more manageable stress responses and you know a a weaker spike responses and you know a a weaker spike responses and you know a a weaker spike in their heart rate during these in their heart rate during these in their heart rate during these stressful experiences when they had stressful experiences when they had stressful experiences when they had their pet in the room. So what I think their pet in the room. So what I think their pet in the room. So what I think about with that is what if it's your about with that is what if it's your about with that is what if it's your spouse in the room instead you know and spouse in the room instead you know and spouse in the room instead you know and you are better a able to tolerate stress you are better a able to tolerate stress you are better a able to tolerate stress like that community acts as a buffer. like that community acts as a buffer. like that community acts as a buffer. And I think about you know someone And I think about you know someone And I think about you know someone getting a phone call and uh it's bad getting a phone call and uh it's bad getting a phone call and uh it's bad news and their heart rate spikes and news and their heart rate spikes and news and their heart rate spikes and they have a heart attack. Would they they have a heart attack. Would they they have a heart attack. Would they have the same stress response? would have the same stress response? would have the same stress response? would they be at at equal likelihood for that they be at at equal likelihood for that they be at at equal likelihood for that event if they had their spouse next to event if they had their spouse next to event if they had their spouse next to them kind of acting as that kind of ice them kind of acting as that kind of ice them kind of acting as that kind of ice pack on their nervous system and pack on their nervous system and pack on their nervous system and buffering the stress? It's complicated buffering the stress? It's complicated buffering the stress? It's complicated and it's and it affects so many and it's and it affects so many and it's and it affects so many different biological systems in many different biological systems in many different biological systems in many different ways. different ways. different ways. >> Are pets can they approach the >> Are pets can they approach the >> Are pets can they approach the protective power of a spouse or a tight protective power of a spouse or a tight protective power of a spouse or a tight friend group? The comparison of of friend group? The comparison of of friend group? The comparison of of spouse to pet or friend to pet uh I as spouse to pet or friend to pet uh I as spouse to pet or friend to pet uh I as far as I'm aware has not been done but I far as I'm aware has not been done but I far as I'm aware has not been done but I I think it should be done because I get I think it should be done because I get I think it should be done because I get this question a lot and and I'm this question a lot and and I'm this question a lot and and I'm personally curious. What I can say is personally curious. What I can say is personally curious. What I can say is it's in the same direction for sure. it's in the same direction for sure. it's in the same direction for sure. There's definitely evidence that having There's definitely evidence that having There's definitely evidence that having a pet or having a dog specifically um a pet or having a dog specifically um a pet or having a dog specifically um but other animals too, cats and such is but other animals too, cats and such is but other animals too, cats and such is is basically good for us. It's uh is basically good for us. It's uh is basically good for us. It's uh reduces the likelihood of things like reduces the likelihood of things like reduces the likelihood of things like like heart disease and heart attack. I like heart disease and heart attack. I like heart disease and heart attack. I really believe that for people who are really believe that for people who are really believe that for people who are vulnerable to isolation, especially like vulnerable to isolation, especially like vulnerable to isolation, especially like older folks, having a pet can be a great older folks, having a pet can be a great older folks, having a pet can be a great kind of substitute to living instead of kind of substitute to living instead of kind of substitute to living instead of living alone. I think you could kind of living alone. I think you could kind of living alone. I think you could kind of restore a little bit of the healthy, restore a little bit of the healthy, restore a little bit of the healthy, supportive properties of interaction by supportive properties of interaction by supportive properties of interaction by having a pet around. Let's talk to the having a pet around. Let's talk to the having a pet around. Let's talk to the introverts listening to this who may introverts listening to this who may introverts listening to this who may feel like, "Wait a minute, my brain feel like, "Wait a minute, my brain feel like, "Wait a minute, my brain [ __ ] because I don't really want I [ __ ] because I don't really want I [ __ ] because I don't really want I don't want to be going to parties or I don't want to be going to parties or I don't want to be going to parties or I don't want to be hanging out with with don't want to be hanging out with with don't want to be hanging out with with my friends so often." my friends so often." my friends so often." >> This is a an important subject that I >> This is a an important subject that I >> This is a an important subject that I think is is should not be ignored. think is is should not be ignored. think is is should not be ignored. Generally, Generally, Generally, the evidence suggests that interacting the evidence suggests that interacting the evidence suggests that interacting more is better uh you know for more is better uh you know for more is better uh you know for longevity, for health, etc. But of longevity, for health, etc. But of longevity, for health, etc. But of course we have to ask the question of course we have to ask the question of course we have to ask the question of does that you know broad generalization does that you know broad generalization does that you know broad generalization kind of neglect introverts. What I've kind of neglect introverts. What I've kind of neglect introverts. What I've seen in the literature is that seen in the literature is that seen in the literature is that introverts benefit from interaction on a introverts benefit from interaction on a introverts benefit from interaction on a smaller scale. It's almost like smaller scale. It's almost like smaller scale. It's almost like interaction is a is a medicine and the interaction is a is a medicine and the interaction is a is a medicine and the appropriate dose is lower for introverts appropriate dose is lower for introverts appropriate dose is lower for introverts and they're much more prone to and they're much more prone to and they're much more prone to overdosing. You know, and and any overdosing. You know, and and any overdosing. You know, and and any introvert who has spent too long at a introvert who has spent too long at a introvert who has spent too long at a party or gone on a long than longer than party or gone on a long than longer than party or gone on a long than longer than preferred vacation with friends or preferred vacation with friends or preferred vacation with friends or family can tell you, "Yes, I can family can tell you, "Yes, I can family can tell you, "Yes, I can definitely overdose and I feel like definitely overdose and I feel like definitely overdose and I feel like shit." And uh and that's what the shit." And uh and that's what the shit." And uh and that's what the research says, too, is that, you know, research says, too, is that, you know, research says, too, is that, you know, if you if you basically force an if you if you basically force an if you if you basically force an introvert to be extroverted and introvert to be extroverted and introvert to be extroverted and socialize all the time, they burn out socialize all the time, they burn out socialize all the time, they burn out really quickly and they don't feel good. really quickly and they don't feel good. really quickly and they don't feel good. So that I have this kind of framework So that I have this kind of framework So that I have this kind of framework that I like to think of that everyone is that I like to think of that everyone is that I like to think of that everyone is like a potted plant. And just as some like a potted plant. And just as some like a potted plant. And just as some potted plants need to be watered all the potted plants need to be watered all the potted plants need to be watered all the time, others only need, you know, a time, others only need, you know, a time, others only need, you know, a little bit of water every once in a little bit of water every once in a little bit of water every once in a while. Introverts are like those plants while. Introverts are like those plants while. Introverts are like those plants that don't need to be watered often. that don't need to be watered often. that don't need to be watered often. They're like snake plants. An introvert They're like snake plants. An introvert They're like snake plants. An introvert can go to a party, they could stay there can go to a party, they could stay there can go to a party, they could stay there for an hour or two, come home and be for an hour or two, come home and be for an hour or two, come home and be perfectly satisfied and not need to go perfectly satisfied and not need to go perfectly satisfied and not need to go out again for, you know, another couple out again for, you know, another couple out again for, you know, another couple days. And what's really important there days. And what's really important there days. And what's really important there for the introverts is like avoiding for the introverts is like avoiding for the introverts is like avoiding overwatering. And I think most overwatering. And I think most overwatering. And I think most introverts are are great at that. I introverts are are great at that. I introverts are are great at that. I think most people who are introverted, think most people who are introverted, think most people who are introverted, they by nature are like, "Nah, I'll skip they by nature are like, "Nah, I'll skip they by nature are like, "Nah, I'll skip the party. I'm good." So, you don't want the party. I'm good." So, you don't want the party. I'm good." So, you don't want to overdo it, of course. But I think on to overdo it, of course. But I think on to overdo it, of course. But I think on the other hand, it's equally important, the other hand, it's equally important, the other hand, it's equally important, maybe more important, honestly, to not maybe more important, honestly, to not maybe more important, honestly, to not let the soil dry out, to not go way too let the soil dry out, to not go way too let the soil dry out, to not go way too long without interacting because it long without interacting because it long without interacting because it doesn't feel like a need. But actually, doesn't feel like a need. But actually, doesn't feel like a need. But actually, my belief is that there is a kind of set my belief is that there is a kind of set my belief is that there is a kind of set level of interaction that everybody level of interaction that everybody level of interaction that everybody needs and everyone's different. And so, needs and everyone's different. And so, needs and everyone's different. And so, I'm for me, I score pretty high on I'm for me, I score pretty high on I'm for me, I score pretty high on extraversion assessments. if I don't extraversion assessments. if I don't extraversion assessments. if I don't interact with my friends two or three interact with my friends two or three interact with my friends two or three times a week, you know, I can start to times a week, you know, I can start to times a week, you know, I can start to feel a difference. Um, but for someone feel a difference. Um, but for someone feel a difference. Um, but for someone else, it might only be once a week. And else, it might only be once a week. And else, it might only be once a week. And so, what I actually think everyone so, what I actually think everyone so, what I actually think everyone should try and figure out is where do should try and figure out is where do should try and figure out is where do they exist on this continuum of they exist on this continuum of they exist on this continuum of introversion to extroversion? And the introversion to extroversion? And the introversion to extroversion? And the great news is there's a simple 20 great news is there's a simple 20 great news is there's a simple 20 question assessment. It's a real, it's question assessment. It's a real, it's question assessment. It's a real, it's not like a Buzzfeed quiz. This is a like not like a Buzzfeed quiz. This is a like not like a Buzzfeed quiz. This is a like validated measurement of extraversion um validated measurement of extraversion um validated measurement of extraversion um that I include in my book. It's also on that I include in my book. It's also on that I include in my book. It's also on my website where you can figure out my website where you can figure out my website where you can figure out pretty quickly where you stand. pretty quickly where you stand. pretty quickly where you stand. >> What's your web address? So, just people >> What's your web address? So, just people >> What's your web address? So, just people want to go to it right now. It's uh my want to go to it right now. It's uh my want to go to it right now. It's uh my name Ben Rin b- n i n.combook name Ben Rin b- n i n.combook name Ben Rin b- n i n.combook and then the uh the resources will be in and then the uh the resources will be in and then the uh the resources will be in there including that extraversion there including that extraversion there including that extraversion assessment. assessment. assessment. >> Let me go back to the word loneliness >> Let me go back to the word loneliness >> Let me go back to the word loneliness that you mentioned earlier. I feel like that you mentioned earlier. I feel like that you mentioned earlier. I feel like a lot of us don't see ourselves in that a lot of us don't see ourselves in that a lot of us don't see ourselves in that word. Um, and I worry every time word. Um, and I worry every time word. Um, and I worry every time loneliness comes up, like I never put it loneliness comes up, like I never put it loneliness comes up, like I never put it in the title of a podcast because I I I in the title of a podcast because I I I in the title of a podcast because I I I feel like people who actually feel like people who actually feel like people who actually technically qualify as lonely don't technically qualify as lonely don't technically qualify as lonely don't believe they are because they are maybe believe they are because they are maybe believe they are because they are maybe surrounded by family and colleagues. But surrounded by family and colleagues. But surrounded by family and colleagues. But loneliness is not about how many people loneliness is not about how many people loneliness is not about how many people you know and interact with. It's you know and interact with. It's you know and interact with. It's something else. something else. something else. >> There's an important distinction between >> There's an important distinction between >> There's an important distinction between loneliness and isolation. Isolation is loneliness and isolation. Isolation is loneliness and isolation. Isolation is what you just said, how many people you what you just said, how many people you what you just said, how many people you interact with. You know, if you're if interact with. You know, if you're if interact with. You know, if you're if you're alone all the time, you are you're alone all the time, you are you're alone all the time, you are isolated, but you may not be lonely. You isolated, but you may not be lonely. You isolated, but you may not be lonely. You may not feel that you're missing out on may not feel that you're missing out on may not feel that you're missing out on interaction. Loneliness is about whether interaction. Loneliness is about whether interaction. Loneliness is about whether or not your social needs are being met, or not your social needs are being met, or not your social needs are being met, whether you perceive them to be. And whether you perceive them to be. And whether you perceive them to be. And yeah, it's a really interesting point yeah, it's a really interesting point yeah, it's a really interesting point you make that people don't really relate you make that people don't really relate you make that people don't really relate to loneliness. Not it's not often that to loneliness. Not it's not often that to loneliness. Not it's not often that someone sits back when they're not someone sits back when they're not someone sits back when they're not feeling right and says, "What's what's feeling right and says, "What's what's feeling right and says, "What's what's off? Oh, I'm lonely." It's usually that off? Oh, I'm lonely." It's usually that off? Oh, I'm lonely." It's usually that they say, "Oh, I'm I didn't get enough they say, "Oh, I'm I didn't get enough they say, "Oh, I'm I didn't get enough sleep or I had, you know, crappy food sleep or I had, you know, crappy food sleep or I had, you know, crappy food for lunch or I've been stressed with for lunch or I've been stressed with for lunch or I've been stressed with work." You know, we often kind of work." You know, we often kind of work." You know, we often kind of overlook loneliness as a mediator of our overlook loneliness as a mediator of our overlook loneliness as a mediator of our feelings. Uh especially especially feelings. Uh especially especially feelings. Uh especially especially introverts. I think a lot about like the introverts. I think a lot about like the introverts. I think a lot about like the surgeon general announced that we have a surgeon general announced that we have a surgeon general announced that we have a loneliness crisis and loneliness crisis and loneliness crisis and from where I stand like not a whole lot from where I stand like not a whole lot from where I stand like not a whole lot changed after that. like people heard changed after that. like people heard changed after that. like people heard the news and were like, "Oh, bad for me. the news and were like, "Oh, bad for me. the news and were like, "Oh, bad for me. I didn't know that." Okay. And then just I didn't know that." Okay. And then just I didn't know that." Okay. And then just went on with their lives. You know, like went on with their lives. You know, like went on with their lives. You know, like using the selfch checkckout lane and and using the selfch checkckout lane and and using the selfch checkckout lane and and ordering, you know, groceries delivered ordering, you know, groceries delivered ordering, you know, groceries delivered to your house instead of going to the to your house instead of going to the to your house instead of going to the store, you know, and like there's not a store, you know, and like there's not a store, you know, and like there's not a meaningful change. And I wonder if meaningful change. And I wonder if meaningful change. And I wonder if that's part of the problem that that that's part of the problem that that that's part of the problem that that nobody really relates to it that they nobody really relates to it that they nobody really relates to it that they don't see it in themselves. don't see it in themselves. don't see it in themselves. >> Honestly, I think it's exactly that. Let >> Honestly, I think it's exactly that. Let >> Honestly, I think it's exactly that. Let me ask a related question just sort of me ask a related question just sort of me ask a related question just sort of on how we've structured our society. You on how we've structured our society. You on how we've structured our society. You talked about selfch checkckout lane and talked about selfch checkckout lane and talked about selfch checkckout lane and um you know ordering stuff online um you know ordering stuff online um you know ordering stuff online instead of going to a restaurant. Why do instead of going to a restaurant. Why do instead of going to a restaurant. Why do you think it is that we know every TED you think it is that we know every TED you think it is that we know every TED talk mentions that we're social animals? talk mentions that we're social animals? talk mentions that we're social animals? I've given a TED talk that mentions that I've given a TED talk that mentions that I've given a TED talk that mentions that we we know we're social animals. This is we we know we're social animals. This is we we know we're social animals. This is not news. And yet we have built a not news. And yet we have built a not news. And yet we have built a society that militates against society that militates against society that militates against interaction at pretty much every turn. interaction at pretty much every turn. interaction at pretty much every turn. not only through technology but also not only through technology but also not only through technology but also through just our overarching ethos of through just our overarching ethos of through just our overarching ethos of individualism. How did we get to this individualism. How did we get to this individualism. How did we get to this point? point? point? >> You know, honestly, I think CO was a big >> You know, honestly, I think CO was a big >> You know, honestly, I think CO was a big part of it. When CO happened, we all had part of it. When CO happened, we all had part of it. When CO happened, we all had to adapt to a world where we couldn't to adapt to a world where we couldn't to adapt to a world where we couldn't interact, right? And for a, you know, interact, right? And for a, you know, interact, right? And for a, you know, capitalistic society, um, what happens? capitalistic society, um, what happens? capitalistic society, um, what happens? Well, all of a sudden you can get Well, all of a sudden you can get Well, all of a sudden you can get groceries without interacting, without groceries without interacting, without groceries without interacting, without going to the store. You can, you know, going to the store. You can, you know, going to the store. You can, you know, everything. You can work from home. You everything. You can work from home. You everything. You can work from home. You can work out from home with a trainer on can work out from home with a trainer on can work out from home with a trainer on a screen. You can do tele medicine and a screen. You can do tele medicine and a screen. You can do tele medicine and talk to your doctor over the phone. Uh talk to your doctor over the phone. Uh talk to your doctor over the phone. Uh you can get a taxi whimo. You can sit in you can get a taxi whimo. You can sit in you can get a taxi whimo. You can sit in the back of a taxi where there's no the back of a taxi where there's no the back of a taxi where there's no human driver in the front seat and it's human driver in the front seat and it's human driver in the front seat and it's super convenient. But is it healthy? Is super convenient. But is it healthy? Is super convenient. But is it healthy? Is it good? And I I think obviously not. I it good? And I I think obviously not. I it good? And I I think obviously not. I think on the whole when we kind of think on the whole when we kind of think on the whole when we kind of summate all of these micro interactions summate all of these micro interactions summate all of these micro interactions that we're losing by automating things, that we're losing by automating things, that we're losing by automating things, it adds up to a pretty significant it adds up to a pretty significant it adds up to a pretty significant amount of time that we that we're no amount of time that we that we're no amount of time that we that we're no longer interacting. And if you look at longer interacting. And if you look at longer interacting. And if you look at the data, I mean it's everything's the data, I mean it's everything's the data, I mean it's everything's headed in the wrong direction. Um headed in the wrong direction. Um headed in the wrong direction. Um there's a shocking statistic probably uh there's a shocking statistic probably uh there's a shocking statistic probably uh this is colored by COVID, but from 2013 this is colored by COVID, but from 2013 this is colored by COVID, but from 2013 to 2021, the amount of time that people to 2021, the amount of time that people to 2021, the amount of time that people spent alone every month increased by 36 spent alone every month increased by 36 spent alone every month increased by 36 hours per month. There's almost an hours per month. There's almost an hours per month. There's almost an entire work week. And maybe it is entire work week. And maybe it is entire work week. And maybe it is because people are working from home. because people are working from home. because people are working from home. Again, that may have been COVID related, Again, that may have been COVID related, Again, that may have been COVID related, but I mean, even still, like ever since but I mean, even still, like ever since but I mean, even still, like ever since then, the numbers have continued to be then, the numbers have continued to be then, the numbers have continued to be in the wrong direction. Like last year in the wrong direction. Like last year in the wrong direction. Like last year there was a study um finding that 69% of there was a study um finding that 69% of there was a study um finding that 69% of Americans are lacking emotional support. Americans are lacking emotional support. Americans are lacking emotional support. It's clear that this this problem exists It's clear that this this problem exists It's clear that this this problem exists but we're not addressing it and you know but we're not addressing it and you know but we're not addressing it and you know maybe we need to build more maybe we need to build more maybe we need to build more infrastructure for social connection. I infrastructure for social connection. I infrastructure for social connection. I think that's probably a big part of it. think that's probably a big part of it. think that's probably a big part of it. You know people talk about third places. You know people talk about third places. You know people talk about third places. We've lost third places um which is this We've lost third places um which is this We've lost third places um which is this this idea of places besides uh your home this idea of places besides uh your home this idea of places besides uh your home and your work that you can go and spend and your work that you can go and spend and your work that you can go and spend time with friends. you know, people used time with friends. you know, people used time with friends. you know, people used to hang out in malls and all this. That to hang out in malls and all this. That to hang out in malls and all this. That doesn't really happen anymore. Now it's doesn't really happen anymore. Now it's doesn't really happen anymore. Now it's pretty much just bars. Um, so I'd like pretty much just bars. Um, so I'd like pretty much just bars. Um, so I'd like to see more of that happen. I think we to see more of that happen. I think we to see more of that happen. I think we just need to build the infrastructure just need to build the infrastructure just need to build the infrastructure and and give people good convincing and and give people good convincing and and give people good convincing reasons to step away from the TV and the reasons to step away from the TV and the reasons to step away from the TV and the phone and the computer and, you know, phone and the computer and, you know, phone and the computer and, you know, get back to face to face contact. get back to face to face contact. get back to face to face contact. >> So that's the kind of macro view. Let's >> So that's the kind of macro view. Let's >> So that's the kind of macro view. Let's talk micro because you you have a lot of talk micro because you you have a lot of talk micro because you you have a lot of practical suggestions in your book. What practical suggestions in your book. What practical suggestions in your book. What do you just top line? What do you do you just top line? What do you do you just top line? What do you recommend if somebody's listening to recommend if somebody's listening to recommend if somebody's listening to this and thinking, "Yeah, I I care about this and thinking, "Yeah, I I care about this and thinking, "Yeah, I I care about brain health. Uh you've talked me out of brain health. Uh you've talked me out of brain health. Uh you've talked me out of most supplements. Uh and you've talked most supplements. Uh and you've talked most supplements. Uh and you've talked me into social interaction. How do I get me into social interaction. How do I get me into social interaction. How do I get more of it?" more of it?" more of it?" >> I have three suggestions. Um number one, >> I have three suggestions. Um number one, >> I have three suggestions. Um number one, look to replace any virtual interactions look to replace any virtual interactions look to replace any virtual interactions with in-person interactions. And even if with in-person interactions. And even if with in-person interactions. And even if you can just kind of level up your you can just kind of level up your you can just kind of level up your virtual interactions. So if it's text virtual interactions. So if it's text virtual interactions. So if it's text message, phone call instead. If it's a message, phone call instead. If it's a message, phone call instead. If it's a phone call, video call instead. If it's phone call, video call instead. If it's phone call, video call instead. If it's a video call, in person instead, my my a video call, in person instead, my my a video call, in person instead, my my justification there is that the way that justification there is that the way that justification there is that the way that the brain detects that you are the brain detects that you are the brain detects that you are interacting with another human and has interacting with another human and has interacting with another human and has the, you know, stimulates those things the, you know, stimulates those things the, you know, stimulates those things like oxytocin and dopamine and serotonin like oxytocin and dopamine and serotonin like oxytocin and dopamine and serotonin is through the observation of social is through the observation of social is through the observation of social cues, right? You can see someone's cues, right? You can see someone's cues, right? You can see someone's facial expression, you can hear their facial expression, you can hear their facial expression, you can hear their tone of voice, you can read their body tone of voice, you can read their body tone of voice, you can read their body language, you can see the the glassiness language, you can see the the glassiness language, you can see the the glassiness in their eyes, right? All of these in their eyes, right? All of these in their eyes, right? All of these pieces of information tell your brain pieces of information tell your brain pieces of information tell your brain you're interacting with someone. And so you're interacting with someone. And so you're interacting with someone. And so you would expect that as you kind of you would expect that as you kind of you would expect that as you kind of strip away that those those pieces of strip away that those those pieces of strip away that those those pieces of information that interactions would information that interactions would information that interactions would become less enjoyable because they're become less enjoyable because they're become less enjoyable because they're not so effective at stimulating not so effective at stimulating not so effective at stimulating doxytocin, dopamine, serotonin. And uh doxytocin, dopamine, serotonin. And uh doxytocin, dopamine, serotonin. And uh while the the molecular biology hasn't while the the molecular biology hasn't while the the molecular biology hasn't been done yet, um there is evidence that been done yet, um there is evidence that been done yet, um there is evidence that less lifelike interactions like texting less lifelike interactions like texting less lifelike interactions like texting are perceived as less pleasant and less are perceived as less pleasant and less are perceived as less pleasant and less enjoyable. So if you can try to get back enjoyable. So if you can try to get back enjoyable. So if you can try to get back to something closer to resembling an to something closer to resembling an to something closer to resembling an inerson interaction. Number two, I think inerson interaction. Number two, I think inerson interaction. Number two, I think we often hold ourselves back from we often hold ourselves back from we often hold ourselves back from connection because of uh these what I connection because of uh these what I connection because of uh these what I call these bad social predictions. We call these bad social predictions. We call these bad social predictions. We it's normal to be anxious socially. Um it's normal to be anxious socially. Um it's normal to be anxious socially. Um you know we talk about social anxiety as you know we talk about social anxiety as you know we talk about social anxiety as like a like a diagnosis. Um but really like a like a diagnosis. Um but really like a like a diagnosis. Um but really everybody experiences some level of everybody experiences some level of everybody experiences some level of social anxiety. And specifically, social anxiety. And specifically, social anxiety. And specifically, there's a couple of things that have there's a couple of things that have there's a couple of things that have been well shown. Uh, one of them is that been well shown. Uh, one of them is that been well shown. Uh, one of them is that we actually think people don't like us we actually think people don't like us we actually think people don't like us as much as they really do. This is as much as they really do. This is as much as they really do. This is called the liking gap. It was discovered called the liking gap. It was discovered called the liking gap. It was discovered by a researcher, Dr. uh, Erica Boothby. by a researcher, Dr. uh, Erica Boothby. by a researcher, Dr. uh, Erica Boothby. So, we think people don't like us as So, we think people don't like us as So, we think people don't like us as much as they do. Number two, we much as they do. Number two, we much as they do. Number two, we underestimate the benefits of underestimate the benefits of underestimate the benefits of socializing. We think that it's, you socializing. We think that it's, you socializing. We think that it's, you know, when it everyone's been there know, when it everyone's been there know, when it everyone's been there Friday night, you're like, do I go to Friday night, you're like, do I go to Friday night, you're like, do I go to this party or not? It's likely that when this party or not? It's likely that when this party or not? It's likely that when you're thinking, "What am I going to get you're thinking, "What am I going to get you're thinking, "What am I going to get out of this?" Whatever you expect, is an out of this?" Whatever you expect, is an out of this?" Whatever you expect, is an underestimation of the actual positive underestimation of the actual positive underestimation of the actual positive emotions you will experience. In emotions you will experience. In emotions you will experience. In addition to that, people tend to think addition to that, people tend to think addition to that, people tend to think that they are worse at socializing than that they are worse at socializing than that they are worse at socializing than they really are. Number four, we also they really are. Number four, we also they really are. Number four, we also overestimate the likelihood of being overestimate the likelihood of being overestimate the likelihood of being socially rejected. socially rejected. socially rejected. And number five, we expect that as a And number five, we expect that as a And number five, we expect that as a conversation goes on for longer, it will conversation goes on for longer, it will conversation goes on for longer, it will get progressively worse, which is also get progressively worse, which is also get progressively worse, which is also not true. It just kind of stays pretty not true. It just kind of stays pretty not true. It just kind of stays pretty stable. Of course, there's an upper end stable. Of course, there's an upper end stable. Of course, there's an upper end of that. You can't talk for, you know, of that. You can't talk for, you know, of that. You can't talk for, you know, 60 hours and still have a good time. 60 hours and still have a good time. 60 hours and still have a good time. But, you know, all of these things But, you know, all of these things But, you know, all of these things together basically push us toward I together basically push us toward I together basically push us toward I don't really know if it's worth going to don't really know if it's worth going to don't really know if it's worth going to the dinner. I think it maybe just be the dinner. I think it maybe just be the dinner. I think it maybe just be easier and more uh energizing to sit on easier and more uh energizing to sit on easier and more uh energizing to sit on the couch and watch TV or something the couch and watch TV or something the couch and watch TV or something else. So, try whenever you experience else. So, try whenever you experience else. So, try whenever you experience any of those miscalculations, try to any of those miscalculations, try to any of those miscalculations, try to think for a second, is this actually think for a second, is this actually think for a second, is this actually true? And what a good place to start true? And what a good place to start true? And what a good place to start also is actually on the other side of it also is actually on the other side of it also is actually on the other side of it after you come out of an interaction try after you come out of an interaction try after you come out of an interaction try to do like a little bit of a to do like a little bit of a to do like a little bit of a self-inventory. Do I feel good right self-inventory. Do I feel good right self-inventory. Do I feel good right now? And most of the time, as long as it now? And most of the time, as long as it now? And most of the time, as long as it was a, you know, regular healthy was a, you know, regular healthy was a, you know, regular healthy interaction, you'll notice that you feel interaction, you'll notice that you feel interaction, you'll notice that you feel pretty terrific. It's, you know, I pretty terrific. It's, you know, I pretty terrific. It's, you know, I actually I tend to think of it like um actually I tend to think of it like um actually I tend to think of it like um like exercise. Like if people didn't like exercise. Like if people didn't like exercise. Like if people didn't have the idea that going to the gym and have the idea that going to the gym and have the idea that going to the gym and lifting weights or whatever is good for lifting weights or whatever is good for lifting weights or whatever is good for them, I feel like we could easily them, I feel like we could easily them, I feel like we could easily overlook the fact that it makes us feel overlook the fact that it makes us feel overlook the fact that it makes us feel really good to exercise. But when you really good to exercise. But when you really good to exercise. But when you come out of the gym, you're like, "Man, come out of the gym, you're like, "Man, come out of the gym, you're like, "Man, I just did the best thing for my health I just did the best thing for my health I just did the best thing for my health I could possibly do. I feel great. Like, I could possibly do. I feel great. Like, I could possibly do. I feel great. Like, I'm sweating. I'm dirty. Doesn't matter. I'm sweating. I'm dirty. Doesn't matter. I'm sweating. I'm dirty. Doesn't matter. I feel awesome." Right? And if you start I feel awesome." Right? And if you start I feel awesome." Right? And if you start to tune into it, you actually will to tune into it, you actually will to tune into it, you actually will notice that interactions make you feel notice that interactions make you feel notice that interactions make you feel pretty good as well. Someone who read my pretty good as well. Someone who read my pretty good as well. Someone who read my book, she actually works at a bookstore. book, she actually works at a bookstore. book, she actually works at a bookstore. She told me that after reading my book, She told me that after reading my book, She told me that after reading my book, it totally changed the way she interacts it totally changed the way she interacts it totally changed the way she interacts with her job because people come into with her job because people come into with her job because people come into the bookstore all day. And you know, you the bookstore all day. And you know, you the bookstore all day. And you know, you small talk, it's retail. And after small talk, it's retail. And after small talk, it's retail. And after reading my book, she realized that reading my book, she realized that reading my book, she realized that connecting with a customer made her feel connecting with a customer made her feel connecting with a customer made her feel so good. And so she started putting more so good. And so she started putting more so good. And so she started putting more intentionality into these interactions intentionality into these interactions intentionality into these interactions and noticing that she was uplifting them and noticing that she was uplifting them and noticing that she was uplifting them as well. And now she like loves her job as well. And now she like loves her job as well. And now she like loves her job again because she's enjoying these again because she's enjoying these again because she's enjoying these interactions she gets. So try not to interactions she gets. So try not to interactions she gets. So try not to fall prey to those uh those social fall prey to those uh those social fall prey to those uh those social traps. Six years ago during COVID, uh, traps. Six years ago during COVID, uh, traps. Six years ago during COVID, uh, this podcast went virtual and for a this podcast went virtual and for a this podcast went virtual and for a variety of reasons, we have not gone variety of reasons, we have not gone variety of reasons, we have not gone back in person except rarely. And I've back in person except rarely. And I've back in person except rarely. And I've started recently upping the in-person started recently upping the in-person started recently upping the in-person quotient quite significantly. And I like quotient quite significantly. And I like quotient quite significantly. And I like my job again. [laughter] my job again. [laughter] my job again. [laughter] It's not like I've hated my job. I love, It's not like I've hated my job. I love, It's not like I've hated my job. I love, you know, I love that I have this show, you know, I love that I have this show, you know, I love that I have this show, but it is so much more enjoyable to host but it is so much more enjoyable to host but it is so much more enjoyable to host a show and conduct an interview when a show and conduct an interview when a show and conduct an interview when you're doing it in person as we did in you're doing it in person as we did in you're doing it in person as we did in the early days of this show. Like we the early days of this show. Like we the early days of this show. Like we would I would not have anybody on the would I would not have anybody on the would I would not have anybody on the show who couldn't come to the studio. show who couldn't come to the studio. show who couldn't come to the studio. And um I think I'm kind of heading back And um I think I'm kind of heading back And um I think I'm kind of heading back toward that. And it's um I'm a little toward that. And it's um I'm a little toward that. And it's um I'm a little embarrassed that it took me six years to embarrassed that it took me six years to embarrassed that it took me six years to truly wake up to this, but it is now truly wake up to this, but it is now truly wake up to this, but it is now thunderously obvious to me. thunderously obvious to me. thunderously obvious to me. >> Well, that's great. I mean, and that >> Well, that's great. I mean, and that >> Well, that's great. I mean, and that aligns with the evidence, right? more aligns with the evidence, right? more aligns with the evidence, right? more lifelike interactions are more pleasant. lifelike interactions are more pleasant. lifelike interactions are more pleasant. And I've always noticed interacting in And I've always noticed interacting in And I've always noticed interacting in person, especially for something like person, especially for something like person, especially for something like this, like a thoughtful conversation, this, like a thoughtful conversation, this, like a thoughtful conversation, you know, you're you really want to dive you know, you're you really want to dive you know, you're you really want to dive in. It's it just seems to be better in in. It's it just seems to be better in in. It's it just seems to be better in person. person. person. >> Having said that, this is going great >> Having said that, this is going great >> Having said that, this is going great and we're virtual, so it it it doesn't and we're virtual, so it it it doesn't and we're virtual, so it it it doesn't mean it can't be done. mean it can't be done. mean it can't be done. >> Running a business means you're always >> Running a business means you're always >> Running a business means you're always reachable until you're not. And the reachable until you're not. And the reachable until you're not. And the moment you miss that call, that text, moment you miss that call, that text, moment you miss that call, that text, that followup, a competitor is the one that followup, a competitor is the one that followup, a competitor is the one that picks it up. That's why today's that picks it up. That's why today's that picks it up. 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Try Quo for free plus 20% off your first 6 Quo for free plus 20% off your first 6 Quo for free plus 20% off your first 6 months when you go to quo.com/happier. months when you go to quo.com/happier. months when you go to quo.com/happier. That's qo.com/happhappier. Okay. But there was a third thing you Okay. But there was a third thing you were going to recommend when it comes to were going to recommend when it comes to were going to recommend when it comes to practical strategies for getting more practical strategies for getting more practical strategies for getting more interaction to our lives. interaction to our lives. interaction to our lives. >> Yeah. So my number three suggestion is I >> Yeah. So my number three suggestion is I >> Yeah. So my number three suggestion is I like to think about connection, social like to think about connection, social like to think about connection, social connection as a pool. And I I connection as a pool. And I I connection as a pool. And I I specifically think about it and this is specifically think about it and this is specifically think about it and this is kind of silly and ridiculous like as a kind of silly and ridiculous like as a kind of silly and ridiculous like as a neuroscientist saying this, but I think neuroscientist saying this, but I think neuroscientist saying this, but I think about it as a pool of oxytocin. about it as a pool of oxytocin. about it as a pool of oxytocin. The reason for this is because oxytocin The reason for this is because oxytocin The reason for this is because oxytocin specifically, I mentioned before that it specifically, I mentioned before that it specifically, I mentioned before that it it makes us feel good. It stimulates it makes us feel good. It stimulates it makes us feel good. It stimulates dopamine and serotonin. There's another dopamine and serotonin. There's another dopamine and serotonin. There's another thing there. Oxytocin has all of these thing there. Oxytocin has all of these thing there. Oxytocin has all of these great healthpromoting benefits. It's great healthpromoting benefits. It's great healthpromoting benefits. It's been shown to be neuroprotective, been shown to be neuroprotective, been shown to be neuroprotective, anti-inflammatory, could boost immune anti-inflammatory, could boost immune anti-inflammatory, could boost immune function, bone growth, wound healing, function, bone growth, wound healing, function, bone growth, wound healing, all these amazing things. And so I think all these amazing things. And so I think all these amazing things. And so I think of it as if every time we connect with of it as if every time we connect with of it as if every time we connect with someone, we take a swim in this pool of someone, we take a swim in this pool of someone, we take a swim in this pool of oxytocin as you can with a regular pool. oxytocin as you can with a regular pool. oxytocin as you can with a regular pool. You can swim at any depth if you want. You can swim at any depth if you want. You can swim at any depth if you want. You can dive into the deep end and you You can dive into the deep end and you You can dive into the deep end and you can connect with your best friends and can connect with your best friends and can connect with your best friends and have a, you know, long night together or have a, you know, long night together or have a, you know, long night together or you can swim in the shallow end. You you can swim in the shallow end. You you can swim in the shallow end. You could just walk around, have the water could just walk around, have the water could just walk around, have the water up to your waist, and you can talk to a up to your waist, and you can talk to a up to your waist, and you can talk to a grocery store or cashier on your way out grocery store or cashier on your way out grocery store or cashier on your way out of the store. Or if you really don't of the store. Or if you really don't of the store. Or if you really don't have time, you can simply dip your foot have time, you can simply dip your foot have time, you can simply dip your foot in and wave to your neighbor as you're in and wave to your neighbor as you're in and wave to your neighbor as you're walking by their house or, you know, walking by their house or, you know, walking by their house or, you know, walking the dog. All of these depths of walking the dog. All of these depths of walking the dog. All of these depths of swimming swimming swimming will have some level of benefit. And of will have some level of benefit. And of will have some level of benefit. And of course, some will be more measurable course, some will be more measurable course, some will be more measurable than others. You know, swimming in the than others. You know, swimming in the than others. You know, swimming in the deep end definitely better for you than deep end definitely better for you than deep end definitely better for you than waving at your neighbor. But I think waving at your neighbor. But I think waving at your neighbor. But I think it's important that we don't forget to it's important that we don't forget to it's important that we don't forget to like engage with the pool at some level. like engage with the pool at some level. like engage with the pool at some level. And I think part of the problem too that And I think part of the problem too that And I think part of the problem too that people don't is because when they hear people don't is because when they hear people don't is because when they hear about connection and they think about, about connection and they think about, about connection and they think about, you know, how do I embed this in my you know, how do I embed this in my you know, how do I embed this in my life? They're only thinking about the life? They're only thinking about the life? They're only thinking about the deep end. They're only thinking about deep end. They're only thinking about deep end. They're only thinking about the kind of high barrier long, you know, the kind of high barrier long, you know, the kind of high barrier long, you know, timeconuming timeconuming timeconuming feels the most energy draining kind of feels the most energy draining kind of feels the most energy draining kind of interactions. But even just going in the interactions. But even just going in the interactions. But even just going in the deep end and just talking to the cashier deep end and just talking to the cashier deep end and just talking to the cashier or whatever you may do is is also very or whatever you may do is is also very or whatever you may do is is also very effective. And there's a bunch of effective. And there's a bunch of effective. And there's a bunch of evidence that you know talking to evidence that you know talking to evidence that you know talking to strangers or even having short strangers or even having short strangers or even having short interactions can can provide a a pretty interactions can can provide a a pretty interactions can can provide a a pretty significant boost in mood. And so I significant boost in mood. And so I significant boost in mood. And so I think you know the way I phrase this in think you know the way I phrase this in think you know the way I phrase this in summary is connection is a pool not a summary is connection is a pool not a summary is connection is a pool not a plunge. You don't always have to plunge plunge. You don't always have to plunge plunge. You don't always have to plunge all the way in. You can just dip your all the way in. You can just dip your all the way in. You can just dip your toes in. And I actually encourage like toes in. And I actually encourage like toes in. And I actually encourage like it's you should always try to think it's you should always try to think it's you should always try to think about like if you have the opportunity about like if you have the opportunity about like if you have the opportunity just take a little dip and then get back just take a little dip and then get back just take a little dip and then get back to whatever you're doing. Uh cuz it's to whatever you're doing. Uh cuz it's to whatever you're doing. Uh cuz it's going to be better for you if you do. going to be better for you if you do. going to be better for you if you do. >> If I was never really or or rarely >> If I was never really or or rarely >> If I was never really or or rarely engaging in profound interpersonal engaging in profound interpersonal engaging in profound interpersonal connection, but I was doing a lot of connection, but I was doing a lot of connection, but I was doing a lot of talking to strangers. What would be the talking to strangers. What would be the talking to strangers. What would be the implications for my brain health? implications for my brain health? implications for my brain health? >> It's like exercise. Anything is better >> It's like exercise. Anything is better >> It's like exercise. Anything is better than nothing, right? Walking is better than nothing, right? Walking is better than nothing, right? Walking is better than being sedentary. So socializing than being sedentary. So socializing than being sedentary. So socializing with strangers I actually is pretty with strangers I actually is pretty with strangers I actually is pretty good. The more you can do generally the good. The more you can do generally the good. The more you can do generally the better. There's a researcher Dr. better. There's a researcher Dr. better. There's a researcher Dr. Nicholas Epley at University of Chicago Nicholas Epley at University of Chicago Nicholas Epley at University of Chicago has done these amazing studies. I'm has done these amazing studies. I'm has done these amazing studies. I'm obsessed with them because he goes into obsessed with them because he goes into obsessed with them because he goes into like realworld environments instead of like realworld environments instead of like realworld environments instead of doing everything in the lab and for doing everything in the lab and for doing everything in the lab and for instance he'll go to the train station instance he'll go to the train station instance he'll go to the train station and ask people hey will you go have an and ask people hey will you go have an and ask people hey will you go have an interaction on your commute into work interaction on your commute into work interaction on your commute into work today uh in you know instead of just today uh in you know instead of just today uh in you know instead of just sitting alone. And what he found is that sitting alone. And what he found is that sitting alone. And what he found is that one, this is actually where that a one, this is actually where that a one, this is actually where that a couple of those things I mentioned couple of those things I mentioned couple of those things I mentioned earlier that people uh overestimate the earlier that people uh overestimate the earlier that people uh overestimate the likelihood of rejection. He found that likelihood of rejection. He found that likelihood of rejection. He found that people expected like 50% or more of the people expected like 50% or more of the people expected like 50% or more of the strangers to reject their interest or strangers to reject their interest or strangers to reject their interest or their uh invitation to talk. Turns out their uh invitation to talk. Turns out their uh invitation to talk. Turns out 0% of the strangers turned them down. 0% of the strangers turned them down. 0% of the strangers turned them down. And then people also expected that they And then people also expected that they And then people also expected that they wouldn't really benefit from the wouldn't really benefit from the wouldn't really benefit from the interaction. Turns out they enjoyed interaction. Turns out they enjoyed interaction. Turns out they enjoyed their commute much more. the end their commute much more. the end their commute much more. the end reported learning more um even more so reported learning more um even more so reported learning more um even more so than people who like just had a normal than people who like just had a normal than people who like just had a normal commute or also those who specifically commute or also those who specifically commute or also those who specifically sat in solitude. So anyhow um he's sat in solitude. So anyhow um he's sat in solitude. So anyhow um he's replicated this across a handful of replicated this across a handful of replicated this across a handful of different places not just trains but different places not just trains but different places not just trains but also like buses and uh like taxis. And also like buses and uh like taxis. And also like buses and uh like taxis. And so there's this growing body of evidence so there's this growing body of evidence so there's this growing body of evidence that strangers are a very good reliable that strangers are a very good reliable that strangers are a very good reliable source of kind of a mood boost. And the source of kind of a mood boost. And the source of kind of a mood boost. And the way I see it is like we have this like way I see it is like we have this like way I see it is like we have this like ripe fruit all around us. You know, we ripe fruit all around us. You know, we ripe fruit all around us. You know, we go out in the public and we don't go out in the public and we don't go out in the public and we don't interact with anybody and we kind of interact with anybody and we kind of interact with anybody and we kind of keep to ourselves, but on the other side keep to ourselves, but on the other side keep to ourselves, but on the other side of that barrier that we're kind of of that barrier that we're kind of of that barrier that we're kind of self-creating is a fruitful interaction self-creating is a fruitful interaction self-creating is a fruitful interaction that can make us feel better. So, I I'm that can make us feel better. So, I I'm that can make us feel better. So, I I'm a I'm an extrovert. I talk to people all a I'm an extrovert. I talk to people all a I'm an extrovert. I talk to people all the time. Um I love it. I I really enjoy the time. Um I love it. I I really enjoy the time. Um I love it. I I really enjoy it. I'm one of those people who will it. I'm one of those people who will it. I'm one of those people who will just like start a conversation with you just like start a conversation with you just like start a conversation with you randomly and uh usually it ends up going randomly and uh usually it ends up going randomly and uh usually it ends up going pretty well. I'm an extrovert, too. But pretty well. I'm an extrovert, too. But pretty well. I'm an extrovert, too. But I was for much of my life kind of a I was for much of my life kind of a I was for much of my life kind of a snobby dick and not really talking to snobby dick and not really talking to snobby dick and not really talking to people um you know trades men and women people um you know trades men and women people um you know trades men and women who would come through uh our apartment who would come through uh our apartment who would come through uh our apartment or now our house or you know people on or now our house or you know people on or now our house or you know people on you know in airports or whatever. And you know in airports or whatever. And you know in airports or whatever. And now I am much more in part because I've now I am much more in part because I've now I am much more in part because I've seen the research and you know I've been seen the research and you know I've been seen the research and you know I've been hosting this show for more than a hosting this show for more than a hosting this show for more than a decade. So I think I probably started as decade. So I think I probably started as decade. So I think I probably started as a result of hearing about the research a result of hearing about the research a result of hearing about the research but now I do it. It doesn't matter what but now I do it. It doesn't matter what but now I do it. It doesn't matter what the research shows. I know what it's the research shows. I know what it's the research shows. I know what it's happening, what is happening in my N of happening, what is happening in my N of happening, what is happening in my N of one sort of inner laboratory. The the one sort of inner laboratory. The the one sort of inner laboratory. The the pleasure centers are lighting up most of pleasure centers are lighting up most of pleasure centers are lighting up most of the time. I'm having these interactions the time. I'm having these interactions the time. I'm having these interactions as I move through the world. A million as I move through the world. A million as I move through the world. A million more questions to ask you about um more questions to ask you about um more questions to ask you about um interaction. Should we be placing a lot interaction. Should we be placing a lot interaction. Should we be placing a lot of emphasis on eye contact of emphasis on eye contact of emphasis on eye contact >> only if it's comfortable? I mean, for >> only if it's comfortable? I mean, for >> only if it's comfortable? I mean, for most people, eye contact is can be most people, eye contact is can be most people, eye contact is can be uncomfortable. You know, there's kind of uncomfortable. You know, there's kind of uncomfortable. You know, there's kind of a threshold. For some people, as soon as a threshold. For some people, as soon as a threshold. For some people, as soon as you make eye contact, it's like, "No, you make eye contact, it's like, "No, you make eye contact, it's like, "No, thank you. This is awkward." Uh, other thank you. This is awkward." Uh, other thank you. This is awkward." Uh, other people, you know, it's like you can do people, you know, it's like you can do people, you know, it's like you can do it for a while and then you start to it for a while and then you start to it for a while and then you start to notice like, "Gosh, I've been really notice like, "Gosh, I've been really notice like, "Gosh, I've been really been holding my eye contact for too long been holding my eye contact for too long been holding my eye contact for too long and now you don't know what to do." But and now you don't know what to do." But and now you don't know what to do." But eye contact is a is a strong uh builder eye contact is a is a strong uh builder eye contact is a is a strong uh builder of affiliation. Um, not only is it is it of affiliation. Um, not only is it is it of affiliation. Um, not only is it is it helpful for reading and understanding helpful for reading and understanding helpful for reading and understanding another person's emotions, but also another person's emotions, but also another person's emotions, but also there's studies showing that the the there's studies showing that the the there's studies showing that the the longer you hold eye contact, the more longer you hold eye contact, the more longer you hold eye contact, the more someone reports respecting you. It's someone reports respecting you. It's someone reports respecting you. It's also seems to be important for also seems to be important for also seems to be important for triggering interbrain synchry, which is triggering interbrain synchry, which is triggering interbrain synchry, which is this idea of kind of your your brain this idea of kind of your your brain this idea of kind of your your brain synchronizing in in certain ways with synchronizing in in certain ways with synchronizing in in certain ways with the person you're interacting with, the person you're interacting with, the person you're interacting with, which can be supportive for like which can be supportive for like which can be supportive for like collaboration and teamwork. So, eye collaboration and teamwork. So, eye collaboration and teamwork. So, eye contact definitely important. contact definitely important. contact definitely important. However, you know, this is kind of like However, you know, this is kind of like However, you know, this is kind of like my stance on on on all things science my stance on on on all things science my stance on on on all things science and medicine related. Uh if it's and medicine related. Uh if it's and medicine related. Uh if it's stressful, don't do it. you're told to stressful, don't do it. you're told to stressful, don't do it. you're told to do something on social media because do something on social media because do something on social media because it's good for you and then you try it it's good for you and then you try it it's good for you and then you try it and it's really uncomfortable. Like and it's really uncomfortable. Like and it's really uncomfortable. Like that's probably not going to be a thing that's probably not going to be a thing that's probably not going to be a thing that's supportive for your health if it that's supportive for your health if it that's supportive for your health if it if it triggers a stress reaction. So, um if it triggers a stress reaction. So, um if it triggers a stress reaction. So, um the good news though is that there's the good news though is that there's the good news though is that there's this one study where they came up with this one study where they came up with this one study where they came up with this like eye contact illusion. I don't this like eye contact illusion. I don't this like eye contact illusion. I don't even know why they tested this how this even know why they tested this how this even know why they tested this how this came about, but they basically found came about, but they basically found came about, but they basically found that when people were 3 feet apart, if that when people were 3 feet apart, if that when people were 3 feet apart, if you were looking at the other person's you were looking at the other person's you were looking at the other person's mouth, they have they cannot tell you're mouth, they have they cannot tell you're mouth, they have they cannot tell you're looking at their mouth. they if you ask looking at their mouth. they if you ask looking at their mouth. they if you ask them they will think yes you're looking them they will think yes you're looking them they will think yes you're looking at my eyes. Um I remember reading that at my eyes. Um I remember reading that at my eyes. Um I remember reading that study and then going upstairs out of my study and then going upstairs out of my study and then going upstairs out of my office and going up to my wife and just office and going up to my wife and just office and going up to my wife and just staring at her mouth and talking to her staring at her mouth and talking to her staring at her mouth and talking to her for a while and just like starting for a while and just like starting for a while and just like starting laughing and she's like what is it? And laughing and she's like what is it? And laughing and she's like what is it? And I'm like nothing anything seem off about I'm like nothing anything seem off about I'm like nothing anything seem off about me and she's like no what? And she me and she's like no what? And she me and she's like no what? And she didn't notice. So I have used it a didn't notice. So I have used it a didn't notice. So I have used it a little bit uh cuz people don't really little bit uh cuz people don't really little bit uh cuz people don't really it's normal to look at someone's mouth it's normal to look at someone's mouth it's normal to look at someone's mouth because you often do that to you know because you often do that to you know because you often do that to you know figure out phonetically what they're figure out phonetically what they're figure out phonetically what they're saying. Uh, so if you do feel saying. Uh, so if you do feel saying. Uh, so if you do feel uncomfortable making eye contact, uncomfortable making eye contact, uncomfortable making eye contact, there's a little cheat code. there's a little cheat code. there's a little cheat code. >> One of the other things I think you >> One of the other things I think you >> One of the other things I think you recommend in terms of upping our recommend in terms of upping our recommend in terms of upping our interaction quotient is to give more interaction quotient is to give more interaction quotient is to give more compliments and express more gratitude. compliments and express more gratitude. compliments and express more gratitude. Say more. Say more. Say more. >> Well, first off, it's just a good thing >> Well, first off, it's just a good thing >> Well, first off, it's just a good thing to do, of course, but it's also it it's to do, of course, but it's also it it's to do, of course, but it's also it it's good for us. It's it's another one of good for us. It's it's another one of good for us. It's it's another one of those mood boosters. Um, which I think those mood boosters. Um, which I think those mood boosters. Um, which I think is fascinating that being nice to others is fascinating that being nice to others is fascinating that being nice to others makes us feel good. Why is that? I don't makes us feel good. Why is that? I don't makes us feel good. Why is that? I don't know. Is it because we're gaining some know. Is it because we're gaining some know. Is it because we're gaining some form of social credit, you know, or form of social credit, you know, or form of social credit, you know, or building our social capital? I'm not building our social capital? I'm not building our social capital? I'm not sure. But it is a reliable way to, you sure. But it is a reliable way to, you sure. But it is a reliable way to, you know, boost your mood and and know, boost your mood and and know, boost your mood and and well-being. Um, and I mean, gosh, if if well-being. Um, and I mean, gosh, if if well-being. Um, and I mean, gosh, if if there's anything out there that you can there's anything out there that you can there's anything out there that you can do that makes you feel good and also do that makes you feel good and also do that makes you feel good and also makes someone else feel good, I think makes someone else feel good, I think makes someone else feel good, I think those are the things we should be those are the things we should be those are the things we should be focusing on to, you know, not only boost focusing on to, you know, not only boost focusing on to, you know, not only boost our own health and wellness, but also our own health and wellness, but also our own health and wellness, but also kind of heal our uh, fractured society. kind of heal our uh, fractured society. kind of heal our uh, fractured society. Another recommendation is to speak more Another recommendation is to speak more Another recommendation is to speak more and ask questions. I think a a lot of and ask questions. I think a a lot of and ask questions. I think a a lot of people feel like speaking more and people feel like speaking more and people feel like speaking more and asking questions are things you asking questions are things you asking questions are things you shouldn't do if you want to be polite. shouldn't do if you want to be polite. shouldn't do if you want to be polite. >> So, this is from the chapter on >> So, this is from the chapter on >> So, this is from the chapter on likability. Um, there's a bunch of likability. Um, there's a bunch of likability. Um, there's a bunch of research on on unlikability and what research on on unlikability and what research on on unlikability and what makes people likable. Um, yeah, we makes people likable. Um, yeah, we makes people likable. Um, yeah, we typically think that we should kind of typically think that we should kind of typically think that we should kind of speak less. There's a kind of general speak less. There's a kind of general speak less. There's a kind of general assumption that people like to talk and assumption that people like to talk and assumption that people like to talk and and like to talk about themselves and so and like to talk about themselves and so and like to talk about themselves and so you should give them the space to to do you should give them the space to to do you should give them the space to to do that. So there was a study where they that. So there was a study where they that. So there was a study where they had college students interact and they had college students interact and they had college students interact and they they told them beforehand basically this they told them beforehand basically this they told them beforehand basically this is how much you're going to get to talk. is how much you're going to get to talk. is how much you're going to get to talk. They kind of governed it with a timer They kind of governed it with a timer They kind of governed it with a timer and so people were sometimes assigned and so people were sometimes assigned and so people were sometimes assigned like 30% of the time or 70% of the time like 30% of the time or 70% of the time like 30% of the time or 70% of the time and what they found was that actually and what they found was that actually and what they found was that actually the the people who spent more time the the people who spent more time the the people who spent more time speaking were reported as more likable. speaking were reported as more likable. speaking were reported as more likable. So there's an upper limit again you know So there's an upper limit again you know So there's an upper limit again you know you don't want to overspeak in in that you don't want to overspeak in in that you don't want to overspeak in in that you're spending too much time talking. you're spending too much time talking. you're spending too much time talking. You also don't want to speak over You also don't want to speak over You also don't want to speak over someone and interrupt them. Uh but someone and interrupt them. Uh but someone and interrupt them. Uh but generally this, you know, the the generally this, you know, the the generally this, you know, the the impulse to hide yourself and kind of impulse to hide yourself and kind of impulse to hide yourself and kind of remain quiet to preserve your reputation remain quiet to preserve your reputation remain quiet to preserve your reputation may be misguided. It may actually be may be misguided. It may actually be may be misguided. It may actually be better to open up and share. And that's better to open up and share. And that's better to open up and share. And that's also been shown that sharing things also been shown that sharing things also been shown that sharing things about yourself, being vulnerable, those about yourself, being vulnerable, those about yourself, being vulnerable, those are great ways to build connection and are great ways to build connection and are great ways to build connection and deepen uh bonds. deepen uh bonds. deepen uh bonds. >> You mentioned that there's research >> You mentioned that there's research >> You mentioned that there's research around likability. What does the science around likability. What does the science around likability. What does the science say we can do other aside from what say we can do other aside from what say we can do other aside from what you've already just mentioned to make you've already just mentioned to make you've already just mentioned to make ourselves more likable? ourselves more likable? ourselves more likable? >> Some things are obvious where someone's >> Some things are obvious where someone's >> Some things are obvious where someone's like, "Oh, I watched the same show." And like, "Oh, I watched the same show." And like, "Oh, I watched the same show." And you're like, "My gosh, it's my favorite you're like, "My gosh, it's my favorite you're like, "My gosh, it's my favorite show." Like, of course, having things in show." Like, of course, having things in show." Like, of course, having things in common is a great one, but some of these common is a great one, but some of these common is a great one, but some of these I'm more fascinated by some of the like I'm more fascinated by some of the like I'm more fascinated by some of the like less obvious things. For instance, less obvious things. For instance, less obvious things. For instance, mimicry, super fascinating. It's very mimicry, super fascinating. It's very mimicry, super fascinating. It's very common in interaction to model the body common in interaction to model the body common in interaction to model the body position of who you're interacting with. position of who you're interacting with. position of who you're interacting with. And I I ever since I read these studies, And I I ever since I read these studies, And I I ever since I read these studies, I notice it all the time. If you know do I notice it all the time. If you know do I notice it all the time. If you know do this, I cross my arms in a conversation this, I cross my arms in a conversation this, I cross my arms in a conversation and then all of a sudden a minute later, and then all of a sudden a minute later, and then all of a sudden a minute later, the other person crosses their arms. the other person crosses their arms. the other person crosses their arms. Happens all the time. Turns out it's Happens all the time. Turns out it's Happens all the time. Turns out it's like an affiliative kind of subconscious like an affiliative kind of subconscious like an affiliative kind of subconscious behavior that when you're just like when behavior that when you're just like when behavior that when you're just like when you say, "Oh, we watch the same same TV you say, "Oh, we watch the same same TV you say, "Oh, we watch the same same TV show." It's like, "Hey, look at this. show." It's like, "Hey, look at this. show." It's like, "Hey, look at this. Our bodies go in the same position." And Our bodies go in the same position." And Our bodies go in the same position." And when you're noticing kind of when you're noticing kind of when you're noticing kind of subconsciously that you're sharing a subconsciously that you're sharing a subconsciously that you're sharing a position, you're doing the same thing, position, you're doing the same thing, position, you're doing the same thing, you're speaking the same way as someone, you're speaking the same way as someone, you're speaking the same way as someone, um you're making the same facial um you're making the same facial um you're making the same facial expressions, it makes you more likable. expressions, it makes you more likable. expressions, it makes you more likable. Also, uh the brain seems to extrapolate Also, uh the brain seems to extrapolate Also, uh the brain seems to extrapolate whatever it's seeing to generalize to a whatever it's seeing to generalize to a whatever it's seeing to generalize to a person's reputation or to a person's person's reputation or to a person's person's reputation or to a person's personality. So that's why like smiling, personality. So that's why like smiling, personality. So that's why like smiling, if you're if you're seen smiling, you're if you're if you're seen smiling, you're if you're if you're seen smiling, you're deemed like more trustworthy and more deemed like more trustworthy and more deemed like more trustworthy and more affiliative and more likable. Uh whereas affiliative and more likable. Uh whereas affiliative and more likable. Uh whereas on the other side of this, um this on the other side of this, um this on the other side of this, um this there's no scientific word for resting there's no scientific word for resting there's no scientific word for resting [ __ ] face, but uh for for those who [ __ ] face, but uh for for those who [ __ ] face, but uh for for those who suffer from resting [ __ ] face, suffer from resting [ __ ] face, suffer from resting [ __ ] face, >> me are often judged as being like kind >> me are often judged as being like kind >> me are often judged as being like kind of, you know, a dick that people tend to of, you know, a dick that people tend to of, you know, a dick that people tend to think that it's, you know, that must be think that it's, you know, that must be think that it's, you know, that must be what their personality is. So, you know, what their personality is. So, you know, what their personality is. So, you know, being being open, being um expressive, being being open, being um expressive, being being open, being um expressive, sharing your emotions, smiling, sharing your emotions, smiling, sharing your emotions, smiling, you know, show having things in common you know, show having things in common you know, show having things in common are just a few of the things that make are just a few of the things that make are just a few of the things that make people likable. people likable. people likable. >> It's so interesting that there's like >> It's so interesting that there's like >> It's so interesting that there's like science here and we can follow a recipe. science here and we can follow a recipe. science here and we can follow a recipe. This it's like the thing most of us want This it's like the thing most of us want This it's like the thing most of us want ever since like school. Uh we want to be ever since like school. Uh we want to be ever since like school. Uh we want to be popular. We want to be liked. And popular. We want to be liked. And popular. We want to be liked. And actually, there are things you can do to actually, there are things you can do to actually, there are things you can do to make yourself more likable. That's just make yourself more likable. That's just make yourself more likable. That's just really good news. really good news. really good news. >> Yeah. I don't necessarily want people or >> Yeah. I don't necessarily want people or >> Yeah. I don't necessarily want people or hope people that will read the book and hope people that will read the book and hope people that will read the book and say, "Oh my gosh, here's my recipe for say, "Oh my gosh, here's my recipe for say, "Oh my gosh, here's my recipe for success." Right? Although likability is success." Right? Although likability is success." Right? Although likability is important. It it definitely is. The more important. It it definitely is. The more important. It it definitely is. The more liked you are, you know, people treat liked you are, you know, people treat liked you are, you know, people treat you better. But rather, I I I hope it you better. But rather, I I I hope it you better. But rather, I I I hope it will be a a guide for anyone who reads will be a a guide for anyone who reads will be a a guide for anyone who reads it and says, "Oh, I don't do that very it and says, "Oh, I don't do that very it and says, "Oh, I don't do that very well. Maybe that's something I should well. Maybe that's something I should well. Maybe that's something I should work on rather than a let me completely, work on rather than a let me completely, work on rather than a let me completely, you know, artificialize myself into this you know, artificialize myself into this you know, artificialize myself into this hyperlable, hyperlable, hyperlable, you know, key that goes in the lock and you know, key that goes in the lock and you know, key that goes in the lock and turns it." Um because the other thing to turns it." Um because the other thing to turns it." Um because the other thing to consider is that authenticity is consider is that authenticity is consider is that authenticity is important. So if you're perceived as as important. So if you're perceived as as important. So if you're perceived as as inauthentic, then your likability drops. inauthentic, then your likability drops. inauthentic, then your likability drops. So if you try to make yourself something So if you try to make yourself something So if you try to make yourself something you're not to be likable, it may not you're not to be likable, it may not you're not to be likable, it may not work. work. work. >> These don't scan to me as >> These don't scan to me as >> These don't scan to me as manipulation or uh tools or a recipe for manipulation or uh tools or a recipe for manipulation or uh tools or a recipe for falsity. There are little hacks like eye falsity. There are little hacks like eye falsity. There are little hacks like eye contact and giving compliments, but at contact and giving compliments, but at contact and giving compliments, but at root the recipe is to be yourself, but root the recipe is to be yourself, but root the recipe is to be yourself, but to do it strategically, like to be to do it strategically, like to be to do it strategically, like to be vulnerable vulnerable vulnerable in the right dose and at the right time, in the right dose and at the right time, in the right dose and at the right time, for example. for example. for example. >> I completely agree. Yeah, it's about >> I completely agree. Yeah, it's about >> I completely agree. Yeah, it's about being yourself, but um but also being yourself, but um but also being yourself, but um but also sometimes noticing when yourself may not sometimes noticing when yourself may not sometimes noticing when yourself may not be uh likable, you know, like maybe if be uh likable, you know, like maybe if be uh likable, you know, like maybe if your natural instinct is to interrupt your natural instinct is to interrupt your natural instinct is to interrupt people all the time and you know, be people all the time and you know, be people all the time and you know, be really outspoken and like voice opinions really outspoken and like voice opinions really outspoken and like voice opinions that are controversial and stuff like that are controversial and stuff like that are controversial and stuff like that, like you know, maybe it's it's that, like you know, maybe it's it's that, like you know, maybe it's it's worth noticing, okay, hey, likability is worth noticing, okay, hey, likability is worth noticing, okay, hey, likability is important. That's a quality I I have important. That's a quality I I have important. That's a quality I I have that may make me unlikable. And so maybe that may make me unlikable. And so maybe that may make me unlikable. And so maybe that's something I should work on for that's something I should work on for that's something I should work on for myself. You know, it's it's about myself. You know, it's it's about myself. You know, it's it's about understanding yourself and and really understanding yourself and and really understanding yourself and and really ultimately bettering your relationships ultimately bettering your relationships ultimately bettering your relationships because relationships are so important. because relationships are so important. because relationships are so important. >> As a small business owner and somebody >> As a small business owner and somebody >> As a small business owner and somebody who's friends with many other small who's friends with many other small who's friends with many other small business owners and people who are business owners and people who are business owners and people who are involved in businesses of all sizes, one involved in businesses of all sizes, one involved in businesses of all sizes, one very common, if not universal concern is very common, if not universal concern is very common, if not universal concern is protecting yourself against digital protecting yourself against digital protecting yourself against digital attacks. Here's why this matters. 75% of attacks. Here's why this matters. 75% of attacks. Here's why this matters. 75% of attacks on executives happen at home or attacks on executives happen at home or attacks on executives happen at home or away from the office. And Iron Wall, one away from the office. And Iron Wall, one away from the office. And Iron Wall, one of our sponsors today, understands a of our sponsors today, understands a of our sponsors today, understands a terrifying reality. If somebody has a terrifying reality. If somebody has a terrifying reality. If somebody has a grievance against your company, your grievance against your company, your grievance against your company, your data is easily obtainable, putting you, data is easily obtainable, putting you, data is easily obtainable, putting you, your business, and your family at risk. your business, and your family at risk. your business, and your family at risk. It takes about 5 minutes to find an It takes about 5 minutes to find an It takes about 5 minutes to find an executive's home address online. And if executive's home address online. And if executive's home address online. And if their personal information is sitting on their personal information is sitting on their personal information is sitting on the open web, they are far too easy to the open web, they are far too easy to the open web, they are far too easy to find. You're leaving them or yourself find. You're leaving them or yourself find. You're leaving them or yourself unprotected. And the team at Ironwall unprotected. And the team at Ironwall unprotected. And the team at Ironwall knows this better than anyone. For knows this better than anyone. For knows this better than anyone. For almost two decades, they've protected almost two decades, they've protected almost two decades, they've protected some of the most targeted executives and some of the most targeted executives and some of the most targeted executives and individuals on the planet. As a white individuals on the planet. As a white individuals on the planet. As a white glove enterprise security service, they glove enterprise security service, they glove enterprise security service, they protect your people with continuous protect your people with continuous protect your people with continuous personal data removal, proactive personal data removal, proactive personal data removal, proactive prevention tools, and emergency support. prevention tools, and emergency support. prevention tools, and emergency support. So, when someone goes looking for your So, when someone goes looking for your So, when someone goes looking for your executives, Ironwall ensures they hit a executives, Ironwall ensures they hit a executives, Ironwall ensures they hit a dead end. So, here's what to do. Go to dead end. So, here's what to do. Go to dead end. So, here's what to do. Go to ironwall.com/danharris, ironwall.com/danharris, ironwall.com/danharris, fill in the quick form, and request your fill in the quick form, and request your fill in the quick form, and request your free risk assessment. Their team will free risk assessment. Their team will free risk assessment. Their team will show you just how exposed your show you just how exposed your show you just how exposed your executives are and how to lock it down executives are and how to lock it down executives are and how to lock it down before a threat reaches the front door. before a threat reaches the front door. before a threat reaches the front door. That's ironwall.com/danharris That's ironwall.com/danharris That's ironwall.com/danharris and the link is in the show notes. Stop and the link is in the show notes. Stop and the link is in the show notes. Stop online threats before they become real online threats before they become real online threats before they become real world attacks with iron wall. We've world attacks with iron wall. We've world attacks with iron wall. We've established that interaction is established that interaction is established that interaction is important for the brain, perhaps the important for the brain, perhaps the important for the brain, perhaps the most important intervention. Um and yet most important intervention. Um and yet most important intervention. Um and yet we are in an era when we have this we are in an era when we have this we are in an era when we have this technology that's called social media. technology that's called social media. technology that's called social media. Um, can we get any of the benefits of Um, can we get any of the benefits of Um, can we get any of the benefits of social interaction via social media? social interaction via social media? social interaction via social media? >> Okay. I'm generally net negative on >> Okay. I'm generally net negative on >> Okay. I'm generally net negative on social media. Um, I think that if social media. Um, I think that if social media. Um, I think that if something happened, all the Silicon something happened, all the Silicon something happened, all the Silicon Valley servers shut down and there were Valley servers shut down and there were Valley servers shut down and there were no longer any social medias or social no longer any social medias or social no longer any social medias or social media formats out there, I think that media formats out there, I think that media formats out there, I think that people's mood and productivity and sleep people's mood and productivity and sleep people's mood and productivity and sleep and depression levels and anxiety and depression levels and anxiety and depression levels and anxiety levels, they would all go in the levels, they would all go in the levels, they would all go in the direction we hope they go in. And direction we hope they go in. And direction we hope they go in. And there's evidence for that. You know, there's evidence for that. You know, there's evidence for that. You know, it's people who spend more time on it's people who spend more time on it's people who spend more time on social media higher risk of anxiety, social media higher risk of anxiety, social media higher risk of anxiety, depression, they have poorer sleep, they depression, they have poorer sleep, they depression, they have poorer sleep, they sleep less. Whether this is a place sleep less. Whether this is a place sleep less. Whether this is a place where you can have a meaningful where you can have a meaningful where you can have a meaningful interaction is a totally different interaction is a totally different interaction is a totally different question and I think there's a there's a question and I think there's a there's a question and I think there's a there's a time and a place for it. I think for time and a place for it. I think for time and a place for it. I think for people who have trouble connecting in people who have trouble connecting in people who have trouble connecting in person or for people who, you know, are person or for people who, you know, are person or for people who, you know, are uh geographically restricted and and uh geographically restricted and and uh geographically restricted and and want to connect with people in a want to connect with people in a want to connect with people in a different area, I think it's terrific. different area, I think it's terrific. different area, I think it's terrific. But for the average person, if we were But for the average person, if we were But for the average person, if we were to remove all inerson interactions and to remove all inerson interactions and to remove all inerson interactions and replace them with social media replace them with social media replace them with social media interactions, interactions, interactions, horrible consequences in my opinion. You horrible consequences in my opinion. You horrible consequences in my opinion. You know, I one thing I've I've noticed is know, I one thing I've I've noticed is know, I one thing I've I've noticed is this empathy, something that I was, you this empathy, something that I was, you this empathy, something that I was, you know, leading research at at Stanford on know, leading research at at Stanford on know, leading research at at Stanford on the biology of empathy is not something the biology of empathy is not something the biology of empathy is not something that we see a whole lot of online. when that we see a whole lot of online. when that we see a whole lot of online. when we post uh maybe you've seen this in we post uh maybe you've seen this in we post uh maybe you've seen this in your social channels and you know your social channels and you know your social channels and you know anybody who who posts social media anybody who who posts social media anybody who who posts social media content has seen the what what happens content has seen the what what happens content has seen the what what happens in the comment section and you don't you in the comment section and you don't you in the comment section and you don't you can scroll on any post and look at the can scroll on any post and look at the can scroll on any post and look at the comment section and what you will find comment section and what you will find comment section and what you will find is is is a ridiculous level of hostility and and a ridiculous level of hostility and and a ridiculous level of hostility and and anger and division and arguments and anger and division and arguments and anger and division and arguments and people start arguing with each other in people start arguing with each other in people start arguing with each other in the comments. It's it's really out of the comments. It's it's really out of the comments. It's it's really out of control. And this this actually like hit control. And this this actually like hit control. And this this actually like hit me when I was doing this research and I me when I was doing this research and I me when I was doing this research and I would go to the lab, do experiments on would go to the lab, do experiments on would go to the lab, do experiments on empathy, come home, post videos on empathy, come home, post videos on empathy, come home, post videos on social media debunking misinformation, social media debunking misinformation, social media debunking misinformation, etc. And seeing that and it clicked for etc. And seeing that and it clicked for etc. And seeing that and it clicked for me this one day that like, oh my gosh, me this one day that like, oh my gosh, me this one day that like, oh my gosh, as I mentioned earlier, the way that as I mentioned earlier, the way that as I mentioned earlier, the way that your brain knows you're interacting with your brain knows you're interacting with your brain knows you're interacting with someone is by observing their fa their someone is by observing their fa their someone is by observing their fa their social cues, facial expressions, vocal social cues, facial expressions, vocal social cues, facial expressions, vocal tone, and all that. We don't have any of tone, and all that. We don't have any of tone, and all that. We don't have any of those things on social media. And that those things on social media. And that those things on social media. And that is the way that the brain activates is the way that the brain activates is the way that the brain activates these empathy systems to help you these empathy systems to help you these empathy systems to help you understand what someone is feeling and understand what someone is feeling and understand what someone is feeling and help you feel what they are feeling. And help you feel what they are feeling. And help you feel what they are feeling. And so like for instance, if I said so like for instance, if I said so like for instance, if I said something really mean to you right now, something really mean to you right now, something really mean to you right now, Dan, and it really upset you and you Dan, and it really upset you and you Dan, and it really upset you and you started crying, I would feel bad because started crying, I would feel bad because started crying, I would feel bad because I'm sitting here observing your emotions I'm sitting here observing your emotions I'm sitting here observing your emotions and naturally my brain starts to soak and naturally my brain starts to soak and naturally my brain starts to soak those up and I feel what you feel. This those up and I feel what you feel. This those up and I feel what you feel. This is this is empathy. But if as soon as we is this is empathy. But if as soon as we is this is empathy. But if as soon as we signed off from this, I mailed you a signed off from this, I mailed you a signed off from this, I mailed you a letter saying the exact same thing and letter saying the exact same thing and letter saying the exact same thing and you open the letter and you sobb and you you open the letter and you sobb and you you open the letter and you sobb and you feel horrible. I feel nothing because feel horrible. I feel nothing because feel horrible. I feel nothing because I'm not there. I'm not observing it. I'm I'm not there. I'm not observing it. I'm I'm not there. I'm not observing it. I'm not I'm not witnessing the reaction I not I'm not witnessing the reaction I not I'm not witnessing the reaction I caused. And so, how can we feel empathy caused. And so, how can we feel empathy caused. And so, how can we feel empathy for each other when we're leaving mean for each other when we're leaving mean for each other when we're leaving mean comments and then closing our phone and comments and then closing our phone and comments and then closing our phone and going away and forgetting it happened going away and forgetting it happened going away and forgetting it happened and we're not seeing each other? We're and we're not seeing each other? We're and we're not seeing each other? We're not interacting with each other. So, not interacting with each other. So, not interacting with each other. So, like I said, I think there's a time and like I said, I think there's a time and like I said, I think there's a time and a place for it, but I think on average, a place for it, but I think on average, a place for it, but I think on average, the interactions we have online are the interactions we have online are the interactions we have online are not realistic. They are more hostile. not realistic. They are more hostile. not realistic. They are more hostile. They are less productive. Uh, and people They are less productive. Uh, and people They are less productive. Uh, and people generally kind of don't behave generally kind of don't behave generally kind of don't behave naturally. They behave in a in a very naturally. They behave in a in a very naturally. They behave in a in a very kind of disconnected sort of like anim kind of disconnected sort of like anim kind of disconnected sort of like anim animalistic way. Um, that's I don't animalistic way. Um, that's I don't animalistic way. Um, that's I don't think good for humanity. Setting aside think good for humanity. Setting aside think good for humanity. Setting aside what what uh social media does to our what what uh social media does to our what what uh social media does to our empathic capacities, what do we know empathic capacities, what do we know empathic capacities, what do we know about what it does to the brains about what it does to the brains about what it does to the brains generally of heavy users? generally of heavy users? generally of heavy users? >> Yeah. So, there's some research I >> Yeah. So, there's some research I >> Yeah. So, there's some research I remember reading a few years ago um remember reading a few years ago um remember reading a few years ago um about social media addiction. Um I mean, about social media addiction. Um I mean, about social media addiction. Um I mean, social media platforms are designed to social media platforms are designed to social media platforms are designed to be as captivating as possible, right? be as captivating as possible, right? be as captivating as possible, right? They are fighting for your attention. They are fighting for your attention. They are fighting for your attention. And this is also something that's been And this is also something that's been And this is also something that's been increasingly acknowledged. increasingly acknowledged. increasingly acknowledged. >> Are they more addictive than cocaine? >> Are they more addictive than cocaine? >> Are they more addictive than cocaine? >> No, I wouldn't say so. Um, unless they, >> No, I wouldn't say so. Um, unless they, >> No, I wouldn't say so. Um, unless they, you know, start stimulating those you know, start stimulating those you know, start stimulating those dopamine pathways directly. But I mean, dopamine pathways directly. But I mean, dopamine pathways directly. But I mean, that's kind of what they're that's kind of what they're that's kind of what they're approximating, right? They are trying to approximating, right? They are trying to approximating, right? They are trying to make something a product that is as make something a product that is as make something a product that is as tailored to your interests as possible tailored to your interests as possible tailored to your interests as possible and just basically as addictive as and just basically as addictive as and just basically as addictive as possible. I mean, and in fact, I I think possible. I mean, and in fact, I I think possible. I mean, and in fact, I I think about this all the time. If you look at about this all the time. If you look at about this all the time. If you look at any of these social media platforms, any of these social media platforms, any of these social media platforms, kind of what they look like, there's a kind of what they look like, there's a kind of what they look like, there's a video that pops up in your feed. You video that pops up in your feed. You video that pops up in your feed. You watch it, you have some dopamine watch it, you have some dopamine watch it, you have some dopamine reaction. You know, is this good? Is reaction. You know, is this good? Is reaction. You know, is this good? Is this interesting? Do I like this? If this interesting? Do I like this? If this interesting? Do I like this? If not, swipe. How's this one? Swipe. Boom. not, swipe. How's this one? Swipe. Boom. not, swipe. How's this one? Swipe. Boom. This one's amazing. Oh my gosh. Okay, on This one's amazing. Oh my gosh. Okay, on This one's amazing. Oh my gosh. Okay, on to the next one. Hunting for that next to the next one. Hunting for that next to the next one. Hunting for that next hit, right? And the the rewards, the hit, right? And the the rewards, the hit, right? And the the rewards, the good videos are delivered kind of good videos are delivered kind of good videos are delivered kind of randomly, right? It's not like every randomly, right? It's not like every randomly, right? It's not like every other video. It's like you get you go other video. It's like you get you go other video. It's like you get you go three and then boom, there's a really three and then boom, there's a really three and then boom, there's a really good one. This is called a variable uh good one. This is called a variable uh good one. This is called a variable uh schedule of reinforcement that the like schedule of reinforcement that the like schedule of reinforcement that the like if you have a mouse, picture a mouse if you have a mouse, picture a mouse if you have a mouse, picture a mouse like pressing a lever and getting a like pressing a lever and getting a like pressing a lever and getting a little treat. The the best way to get a little treat. The the best way to get a little treat. The the best way to get a mouse to press a lever is to have random mouse to press a lever is to have random mouse to press a lever is to have random increments of rewards delivered. They increments of rewards delivered. They increments of rewards delivered. They press it once, they get one, five press it once, they get one, five press it once, they get one, five presses later, they get one, and then presses later, they get one, and then presses later, they get one, and then two presses later, and then 12 presses two presses later, and then 12 presses two presses later, and then 12 presses later. It's just random. It's totally later. It's just random. It's totally later. It's just random. It's totally unpredictable. This is the exact same unpredictable. This is the exact same unpredictable. This is the exact same mechanism that social media uses to make mechanism that social media uses to make mechanism that social media uses to make you keep swiping. And also, I've noticed you keep swiping. And also, I've noticed you keep swiping. And also, I've noticed this on the creator side, arguably even this on the creator side, arguably even this on the creator side, arguably even worse. You post a video, you're hoping worse. You post a video, you're hoping worse. You post a video, you're hoping it goes viral. Not this one. Post it goes viral. Not this one. Post it goes viral. Not this one. Post another one. Not this one. Post another another one. Not this one. Post another another one. Not this one. Post another one. Boom. Virality. Amazing. Oh my one. Boom. Virality. Amazing. Oh my one. Boom. Virality. Amazing. Oh my gosh, I need to post 20 more videos. You gosh, I need to post 20 more videos. You gosh, I need to post 20 more videos. You post the 25th video, viral. And you end post the 25th video, viral. And you end post the 25th video, viral. And you end up hunting and hunting and hunting. And up hunting and hunting and hunting. And up hunting and hunting and hunting. And I I mean, I don't know. I would imagine I I mean, I don't know. I would imagine I I mean, I don't know. I would imagine like these are smart people behind these like these are smart people behind these like these are smart people behind these platforms. They know how to platforms. They know how to platforms. They know how to I don't want to say control but uh I don't want to say control but uh I don't want to say control but uh influence human behavior. And so when influence human behavior. And so when influence human behavior. And so when you have that system paired with a you have that system paired with a you have that system paired with a hyperpersonalized algorith hyperpersonalized algorith hyperpersonalized algorith recommendation algorithm, recommendation algorithm, recommendation algorithm, what you get is an intensely rewarding what you get is an intensely rewarding what you get is an intensely rewarding experience that's hard to look away experience that's hard to look away experience that's hard to look away from. There is some evidence about from. There is some evidence about from. There is some evidence about social media addiction and there's social media addiction and there's social media addiction and there's there's been some even some uh there's been some even some uh there's been some even some uh neuroscience done from what I remember neuroscience done from what I remember neuroscience done from what I remember reading um the brain changes that are reading um the brain changes that are reading um the brain changes that are seen in social people who are diagnosed seen in social people who are diagnosed seen in social people who are diagnosed with social media addiction are very with social media addiction are very with social media addiction are very much resemble the brain changes of drug much resemble the brain changes of drug much resemble the brain changes of drug addiction. And so the question there for addiction. And so the question there for addiction. And so the question there for me is is there a brain signature of me is is there a brain signature of me is is there a brain signature of someone who is prone to becoming someone who is prone to becoming someone who is prone to becoming addicted to something uh and that's why addicted to something uh and that's why addicted to something uh and that's why there's a correlation between those two there's a correlation between those two there's a correlation between those two types of brains or is it that social types of brains or is it that social types of brains or is it that social media you know is a drug basically. media you know is a drug basically. media you know is a drug basically. >> That was all fascinating just in terms >> That was all fascinating just in terms >> That was all fascinating just in terms of how we as individuals should think of how we as individuals should think of how we as individuals should think about interacting with social media. If about interacting with social media. If about interacting with social media. If I'm hearing you correctly and please I'm hearing you correctly and please I'm hearing you correctly and please correct me if I'm making the wrong correct me if I'm making the wrong correct me if I'm making the wrong extrapolation here. It feels like your extrapolation here. It feels like your extrapolation here. It feels like your argument is hey look a little bit of argument is hey look a little bit of argument is hey look a little bit of social media is not going to kill you social media is not going to kill you social media is not going to kill you and maybe it could even be fun or and maybe it could even be fun or and maybe it could even be fun or enjoyable on some level and that's enjoyable on some level and that's enjoyable on some level and that's that's okay. You don't need to be a that's okay. You don't need to be a that's okay. You don't need to be a lite. You you don't need to like lite. You you don't need to like lite. You you don't need to like disconnect from this thriving disconnect from this thriving disconnect from this thriving uh for better or worse aspect of human uh for better or worse aspect of human uh for better or worse aspect of human affairs right now. However, if you are affairs right now. However, if you are affairs right now. However, if you are doing too much of it or if you're not doing too much of it or if you're not doing too much of it or if you're not actually getting IRL actually getting IRL actually getting IRL interaction, that could be quite interaction, that could be quite interaction, that could be quite problematic. problematic. problematic. >> Yeah. The only thing I'll add to that is >> Yeah. The only thing I'll add to that is >> Yeah. The only thing I'll add to that is there are literally clinical trials that there are literally clinical trials that there are literally clinical trials that have been done where the the drug or have been done where the the drug or have been done where the the drug or whatever the intervention that was whatever the intervention that was whatever the intervention that was tested was a break from social media. tested was a break from social media. tested was a break from social media. And so they ask people to, you know, for And so they ask people to, you know, for And so they ask people to, you know, for a week or two weeks to limit their a week or two weeks to limit their a week or two weeks to limit their intera. Um, which by the way, they find they Um, which by the way, they find they often find that it's impossible to get often find that it's impossible to get often find that it's impossible to get people to actually stop using social people to actually stop using social people to actually stop using social media. So they usually end up having to media. So they usually end up having to media. So they usually end up having to limit it. And when people do that, their limit it. And when people do that, their limit it. And when people do that, their depression levels, their anxiety levels depression levels, their anxiety levels depression levels, their anxiety levels both go down. You know, they start both go down. You know, they start both go down. You know, they start sleeping better. So yes, I agree with sleeping better. So yes, I agree with sleeping better. So yes, I agree with that. I think that as long as you're that. I think that as long as you're that. I think that as long as you're you're limiting it and you're kind of you're limiting it and you're kind of you're limiting it and you're kind of monitoring it, um it's okay because I monitoring it, um it's okay because I monitoring it, um it's okay because I mean let's let's face it, social media mean let's let's face it, social media mean let's let's face it, social media is is pleasant, right? You love going on is is pleasant, right? You love going on is is pleasant, right? You love going on and seeing something. Some people cannot and seeing something. Some people cannot and seeing something. Some people cannot disconnect. In fact, I cannot tell you disconnect. In fact, I cannot tell you disconnect. In fact, I cannot tell you the number of times where, you know, I the number of times where, you know, I the number of times where, you know, I meet someone and someone says, "Oh, you meet someone and someone says, "Oh, you meet someone and someone says, "Oh, you know, this guy does Tik Tok or know, this guy does Tik Tok or know, this guy does Tik Tok or whatever." or somehow Tik Tok comes up whatever." or somehow Tik Tok comes up whatever." or somehow Tik Tok comes up and I cannot tell you probably 90% of and I cannot tell you probably 90% of and I cannot tell you probably 90% of the people I talk to say oh I can't have the people I talk to say oh I can't have the people I talk to say oh I can't have Tik Tok I get addicted to it I literally Tik Tok I get addicted to it I literally Tik Tok I get addicted to it I literally had to delete it from my phone because I had to delete it from my phone because I had to delete it from my phone because I was losing days of my life and now was losing days of my life and now was losing days of my life and now Instagram YouTube even like LinkedIn all Instagram YouTube even like LinkedIn all Instagram YouTube even like LinkedIn all these platforms are becoming more Tik these platforms are becoming more Tik these platforms are becoming more Tik Tokesque and I think there's good reason Tokesque and I think there's good reason Tokesque and I think there's good reason for it because it works really well for it because it works really well for it because it works really well >> I remember a member of Congress calling >> I remember a member of Congress calling >> I remember a member of Congress calling Tik Tok digital fentinol which struck me Tik Tok digital fentinol which struck me Tik Tok digital fentinol which struck me as a quite vivid uh uh description for as a quite vivid uh uh description for as a quite vivid uh uh description for people who are socially anxious. Is people who are socially anxious. Is people who are socially anxious. Is alcohol uh an effective and appropriate alcohol uh an effective and appropriate alcohol uh an effective and appropriate social lubricant? social lubricant? social lubricant? >> Well, I don't want to like d prescribe >> Well, I don't want to like d prescribe >> Well, I don't want to like d prescribe alcohol here, but um I mean can it can alcohol here, but um I mean can it can alcohol here, but um I mean can it can it be helpful? Of course. Uh you know, I it be helpful? Of course. Uh you know, I it be helpful? Of course. Uh you know, I I think I remember a study finding that I think I remember a study finding that I think I remember a study finding that for every one drink consumed, social for every one drink consumed, social for every one drink consumed, social anxiety reduces by 4%. Which, you know, anxiety reduces by 4%. Which, you know, anxiety reduces by 4%. Which, you know, 4% is not a whole lot, but you have five 4% is not a whole lot, but you have five 4% is not a whole lot, but you have five drinks and all of a sudden you're down drinks and all of a sudden you're down drinks and all of a sudden you're down 20%. That's pretty strong. 20%. That's pretty strong. 20%. That's pretty strong. >> Yeah. And you're also naked and peeing >> Yeah. And you're also naked and peeing >> Yeah. And you're also naked and peeing in the corner of the bar, in the corner of the bar, in the corner of the bar, >> right? Yeah. So, my take on this is >> right? Yeah. So, my take on this is >> right? Yeah. So, my take on this is alcohol is not uh something that's alcohol is not uh something that's alcohol is not uh something that's healthy for you. That has been healthy for you. That has been healthy for you. That has been increasingly uh talked about recently, increasingly uh talked about recently, increasingly uh talked about recently, which is good, I think, because we've which is good, I think, because we've which is good, I think, because we've built an entire world around alcohol as built an entire world around alcohol as built an entire world around alcohol as a social lubricant. It's also very much a social lubricant. It's also very much a social lubricant. It's also very much worth noting that alcohol makes us feel worth noting that alcohol makes us feel worth noting that alcohol makes us feel more more more comfortable socially, but it actually comfortable socially, but it actually comfortable socially, but it actually does not make us better interactors. It does not make us better interactors. It does not make us better interactors. It makes us much worse interactors. And makes us much worse interactors. And makes us much worse interactors. And like you said, you're naked peeing in like you said, you're naked peeing in like you said, you're naked peeing in the corner. I mean, the reason why that the corner. I mean, the reason why that the corner. I mean, the reason why that that example makes sense is because when that example makes sense is because when that example makes sense is because when we're start getting drunk, we stop we we're start getting drunk, we stop we we're start getting drunk, we stop we stop caring about what other people stop caring about what other people stop caring about what other people think. This is very well established think. This is very well established think. This is very well established both, you know, in the world and also in both, you know, in the world and also in both, you know, in the world and also in neuroscience that people kind of turn neuroscience that people kind of turn neuroscience that people kind of turn off their um mental models of what off their um mental models of what off their um mental models of what others are thinking. They're worse at others are thinking. They're worse at others are thinking. They're worse at understanding other people's opinion or understanding other people's opinion or understanding other people's opinion or perspectives and stuff. They actually perspectives and stuff. They actually perspectives and stuff. They actually there's a study showing that tipsy there's a study showing that tipsy there's a study showing that tipsy people showed uh less activity in the people showed uh less activity in the people showed uh less activity in the amygdala, the you know emotional amygdala, the you know emotional amygdala, the you know emotional reaction kind of area uh to negative reaction kind of area uh to negative reaction kind of area uh to negative social content. And so the way I think social content. And so the way I think social content. And so the way I think about that is you're drunk at a bar and about that is you're drunk at a bar and about that is you're drunk at a bar and you make a super inappropriate joke you make a super inappropriate joke you make a super inappropriate joke towards one of your co-workers and all towards one of your co-workers and all towards one of your co-workers and all everyone's like, "Oh my gosh, like how everyone's like, "Oh my gosh, like how everyone's like, "Oh my gosh, like how could you say that?" In that moment, could you say that?" In that moment, could you say that?" In that moment, your brain's very likely having a weaker your brain's very likely having a weaker your brain's very likely having a weaker reaction because it's like, "Oh, I don't reaction because it's like, "Oh, I don't reaction because it's like, "Oh, I don't really care. I don't, you know, my the really care. I don't, you know, my the really care. I don't, you know, my the amydala is not firing up as well." And amydala is not firing up as well." And amydala is not firing up as well." And so, you're like super not socially so, you're like super not socially so, you're like super not socially anxious, but you're also doing things anxious, but you're also doing things anxious, but you're also doing things that are not conducive for building that are not conducive for building that are not conducive for building connection. Uh, and also, you know, connection. Uh, and also, you know, connection. Uh, and also, you know, struggling with empathy. And so it's struggling with empathy. And so it's struggling with empathy. And so it's good that humanity has found this kind good that humanity has found this kind good that humanity has found this kind of system that allows us to connect of system that allows us to connect of system that allows us to connect through alcohol, but I do wish it were a through alcohol, but I do wish it were a through alcohol, but I do wish it were a different drug that we were all using to different drug that we were all using to different drug that we were all using to to get together. to get together. to get together. >> Well, like which drug? MDMA. >> Well, like which drug? MDMA. >> Well, like which drug? MDMA. >> Uh I honestly didn't mean anything >> Uh I honestly didn't mean anything >> Uh I honestly didn't mean anything specific by that, but probably if I had specific by that, but probably if I had specific by that, but probably if I had to pick one, I'd probably go MDMA. to pick one, I'd probably go MDMA. to pick one, I'd probably go MDMA. Although that's also not something you Although that's also not something you Although that's also not something you want to be doing all the time for your want to be doing all the time for your want to be doing all the time for your brain health. Yes, I have plenty I have brain health. Yes, I have plenty I have brain health. Yes, I have plenty I have luminous amounts of experience with MDMA luminous amounts of experience with MDMA luminous amounts of experience with MDMA and I love it. Um and and I would not and I love it. Um and and I would not and I love it. Um and and I would not readily recommend it because it can, you readily recommend it because it can, you readily recommend it because it can, you know, the the days afterwards can be, as know, the the days afterwards can be, as know, the the days afterwards can be, as a friend of mine has said, you are a friend of mine has said, you are a friend of mine has said, you are borrowing happiness from the future. borrowing happiness from the future. borrowing happiness from the future. >> Yeah, I love your transparency on this >> Yeah, I love your transparency on this >> Yeah, I love your transparency on this show, Dan. I really appreciate it. show, Dan. I really appreciate it. show, Dan. I really appreciate it. Honestly, Honestly, Honestly, >> I've mentioned this on the show many >> I've mentioned this on the show many >> I've mentioned this on the show many times, so loyal listeners, I apologize. times, so loyal listeners, I apologize. times, so loyal listeners, I apologize. I'm going to say something I've said I'm going to say something I've said I'm going to say something I've said many times before. I'm a a super many times before. I'm a a super many times before. I'm a a super extrovert and I've also like as a extrovert and I've also like as a extrovert and I've also like as a consequence of hosting the show for so consequence of hosting the show for so consequence of hosting the show for so many years, I've been highly sensitive many years, I've been highly sensitive many years, I've been highly sensitive to the benefits of social interaction um to the benefits of social interaction um to the benefits of social interaction um and benefits I was overlooking for many and benefits I was overlooking for many and benefits I was overlooking for many years uh because of workcoholism and years uh because of workcoholism and years uh because of workcoholism and other stupid uh behaviors. I have many other stupid uh behaviors. I have many other stupid uh behaviors. I have many many uh standing dinners and lunches many uh standing dinners and lunches many uh standing dinners and lunches with friends and one of them is with with friends and one of them is with with friends and one of them is with three women who I'm friends with and one three women who I'm friends with and one three women who I'm friends with and one of them was saying made a comment to me of them was saying made a comment to me of them was saying made a comment to me and this is the relevant piece to your and this is the relevant piece to your and this is the relevant piece to your talking about how open I am. She she talking about how open I am. She she talking about how open I am. She she described my business as an empire built described my business as an empire built described my business as an empire built on my own v vulnerability. Um, and you on my own v vulnerability. Um, and you on my own v vulnerability. Um, and you know, I'm not a researcher like you and know, I'm not a researcher like you and know, I'm not a researcher like you and I uh so I'm not an expert in anything. I uh so I'm not an expert in anything. I uh so I'm not an expert in anything. I'm not a meditation teacher. All I have I'm not a meditation teacher. All I have I'm not a meditation teacher. All I have is my ability to take uh from is my ability to take uh from is my ability to take uh from contemplative history and modern contemplative history and modern contemplative history and modern psychology and neuroscience and refract psychology and neuroscience and refract psychology and neuroscience and refract it through the lens of my own personal it through the lens of my own personal it through the lens of my own personal experience in service of the audience. experience in service of the audience. experience in service of the audience. >> Oh, well, it's probably what makes you >> Oh, well, it's probably what makes you >> Oh, well, it's probably what makes you so likable. Well, I appreciate that. so likable. Well, I appreciate that. so likable. Well, I appreciate that. Yeah, it doesn't always work. Um, I have Yeah, it doesn't always work. Um, I have Yeah, it doesn't always work. Um, I have found you, sir, to be extremely likable found you, sir, to be extremely likable found you, sir, to be extremely likable and this conversation to be very, very and this conversation to be very, very and this conversation to be very, very fun. Final question for you is, uh, can fun. Final question for you is, uh, can fun. Final question for you is, uh, can you just promote your book and your you just promote your book and your you just promote your book and your social media channels and your website social media channels and your website social media channels and your website and everything that you want us to know and everything that you want us to know and everything that you want us to know about? about? about? >> My book, it's called Why Brains Need >> My book, it's called Why Brains Need >> My book, it's called Why Brains Need Friends. Um, and it's for international Friends. Um, and it's for international Friends. Um, and it's for international listeners. It's published in like 16 or listeners. It's published in like 16 or listeners. It's published in like 16 or 17 languages. It's really a 17 languages. It's really a 17 languages. It's really a neuroscientist's attempt at trying to neuroscientist's attempt at trying to neuroscientist's attempt at trying to solve the loneliness crisis by infusing solve the loneliness crisis by infusing solve the loneliness crisis by infusing as much, you know, neuroscience as much, you know, neuroscience as much, you know, neuroscience understanding as possible written at a understanding as possible written at a understanding as possible written at a level that anyone can understand. But, level that anyone can understand. But, level that anyone can understand. But, you know, the brain is is a organ you know, the brain is is a organ you know, the brain is is a organ shrouded in mystery and darkness. My shrouded in mystery and darkness. My shrouded in mystery and darkness. My goal with the book is is to basically goal with the book is is to basically goal with the book is is to basically help people understand what they cannot help people understand what they cannot help people understand what they cannot see. What is really going on inside the see. What is really going on inside the see. What is really going on inside the brain? What sort of benefits can you brain? What sort of benefits can you brain? What sort of benefits can you experience from connection? What things experience from connection? What things experience from connection? What things have you maybe never considered that you have you maybe never considered that you have you maybe never considered that you should consider like drugs and should consider like drugs and should consider like drugs and likability and empathy and all of these likability and empathy and all of these likability and empathy and all of these facets of our lives that influence our facets of our lives that influence our facets of our lives that influence our brains, influence our health, influence brains, influence our health, influence brains, influence our health, influence our connections, uh, and we may have our connections, uh, and we may have our connections, uh, and we may have never considered before. So, if that's never considered before. So, if that's never considered before. So, if that's your jam, I, you know, I appreciate your jam, I, you know, I appreciate your jam, I, you know, I appreciate anyone who's interested in reading it. anyone who's interested in reading it. anyone who's interested in reading it. We'll put links in the show notes if We'll put links in the show notes if We'll put links in the show notes if somebody anybody wants to buy it. We'll somebody anybody wants to buy it. We'll somebody anybody wants to buy it. We'll put links to your website and your um put links to your website and your um put links to your website and your um social media accounts um, if anybody social media accounts um, if anybody social media accounts um, if anybody wants to get more from Dr. for Ben Ryan. wants to get more from Dr. for Ben Ryan. wants to get more from Dr. for Ben Ryan. In the meantime, uh Ben, great job with In the meantime, uh Ben, great job with In the meantime, uh Ben, great job with this. Great to meet you. [music] Thank this. Great to meet you. [music] Thank this. Great to meet you. [music] Thank you for your work. Thanks for your time. you for your work. Thanks for your time. you for your work. Thanks for your time. >> Yeah, thank you so much for having me. >> Yeah, thank you so much for having me. >> Yeah, thank you so much for having me. It's been honestly a great conversation. It's been honestly a great conversation. It's been honestly a great conversation. I appreciate it. I appreciate it. I appreciate it. >> Thank you so much to everybody who works >> Thank you so much to everybody who works >> Thank you so much to everybody who works so [music] hard to make this show. 10% so [music] hard to make this show. 10% so [music] hard to make this show. 10% Happier is produced by Tara Anderson. Happier is produced by Tara Anderson. Happier is produced by Tara Anderson. 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Follow the please do me/ us a solid. Follow the show and leave a rating and a review on show and leave a rating and a review on show and leave a rating and a review on whatever platform [music] you watch or whatever platform [music] you watch or whatever platform [music] you watch or listen to us on. It only takes a minute. listen to us on. It only takes a minute. listen to us on. It only takes a minute. It's free and it really helps new people It's free and it really helps new people It's free and it really helps new people find us and spread the good news that find us and spread the good news that find us and spread the good news that [music] the mind is trainable. Thank you [music] the mind is trainable. Thank you [music] the mind is trainable. Thank you sincerely. I mean it. Thank you.