The Most Liberating Life Lessons Everyone Needs To Learn | John Green

John Green, welcome to the show. Uh, John Green, welcome to the show. Uh, >> thanks for having me. >> thanks for having me. >> thanks for having me. >> It's a pleasure. You've been incredibly >> It's a pleasure. You've been incredibly >> It's a pleasure. You've been incredibly candid about your ups and downs candid about your ups and downs candid about your ups and downs psychologically. So, just like today, psychologically. So, just like today, psychologically. So, just like today, how you doing? how you doing? how you doing? >> Today, I'm doing really well, which is >> Today, I'm doing really well, which is >> Today, I'm doing really well, which is certainly not a guarantee. I wouldn't certainly not a guarantee. I wouldn't certainly not a guarantee. I wouldn't have told you that earlier in the week have told you that earlier in the week have told you that earlier in the week because there are ups and downs. Um, you because there are ups and downs. Um, you because there are ups and downs. Um, you know, I've lived with OCD for most of my know, I've lived with OCD for most of my know, I've lived with OCD for most of my life. have had periods of major life. have had periods of major life. have had periods of major depression and right now all of that depression and right now all of that depression and right now all of that feels feels feels a little distant. It feels very well a little distant. It feels very well a little distant. It feels very well under control. It feels like I'm able to under control. It feels like I'm able to under control. It feels like I'm able to live the life I want to live. And uh but live the life I want to live. And uh but live the life I want to live. And uh but I also know that as the old Liberian I also know that as the old Liberian I also know that as the old Liberian proverb goes, no condition is permanent. proverb goes, no condition is permanent. proverb goes, no condition is permanent. >> The Buddha could have said that. Um it's >> The Buddha could have said that. Um it's >> The Buddha could have said that. Um it's interesting to know it's a it was an interesting to know it's a it was an interesting to know it's a it was an insight arrived at in Liberia as well. insight arrived at in Liberia as well. insight arrived at in Liberia as well. Um Um Um I I I noticed that you said a couple of I I I noticed that you said a couple of I I I noticed that you said a couple of days ago you might have felt days ago you might have felt days ago you might have felt differently. So this is really subject differently. So this is really subject differently. So this is really subject to change. to change. to change. >> Yeah. I I just think a few days ago I >> Yeah. I I just think a few days ago I >> Yeah. I I just think a few days ago I was having a lot more uh stress in my was having a lot more uh stress in my was having a lot more uh stress in my personal and professional life and so personal and professional life and so personal and professional life and so things were a little more hectic and a things were a little more hectic and a things were a little more hectic and a little more challenging. But the little more challenging. But the little more challenging. But the blessing of building a set of tools in blessing of building a set of tools in blessing of building a set of tools in your life that you can use to help with your life that you can use to help with your life that you can use to help with mental health problems, and I've had now mental health problems, and I've had now mental health problems, and I've had now 25 years of getting to work on this 25 years of getting to work on this 25 years of getting to work on this stuff, is that the periods of challenge stuff, is that the periods of challenge stuff, is that the periods of challenge don't go away, but for me, the intensity don't go away, but for me, the intensity don't go away, but for me, the intensity of them can shrink and also the length of them can shrink and also the length of them can shrink and also the length of them can shrink. And I and I wish of them can shrink. And I and I wish of them can shrink. And I and I wish that I'd known that when I was younger that I'd known that when I was younger that I'd known that when I was younger because I feel like when I was in my because I feel like when I was in my because I feel like when I was in my 20s, it always felt to me so permanent. 20s, it always felt to me so permanent. 20s, it always felt to me so permanent. Depression felt utterly permanent. It Depression felt utterly permanent. It Depression felt utterly permanent. It felt as permanent as the sun. felt as permanent as the sun. felt as permanent as the sun. And in my periods of depression, it it And in my periods of depression, it it And in my periods of depression, it it would feel like there was no escape from would feel like there was no escape from would feel like there was no escape from it and there was no no future. Now I it and there was no no future. Now I it and there was no no future. Now I mean I can't say this universally but mean I can't say this universally but mean I can't say this universally but now I think with the benefit of like I now I think with the benefit of like I now I think with the benefit of like I said the toolkit and also I think just said the toolkit and also I think just said the toolkit and also I think just maturation I understand that you know maturation I understand that you know maturation I understand that you know these things these things these things can be really intense and really can be really intense and really can be really intense and really challenging but I can also have a rich challenging but I can also have a rich challenging but I can also have a rich full life at the same time and knowing full life at the same time and knowing full life at the same time and knowing that like knowing that it's possible to that like knowing that it's possible to that like knowing that it's possible to live with mental illness and also have a live with mental illness and also have a live with mental illness and also have a good life is is really important for me. good life is is really important for me. good life is is really important for me. I think it's important just for I think it's important just for I think it's important just for everybody to know whether they have a a everybody to know whether they have a a everybody to know whether they have a a diagnosis like major depression or OCD diagnosis like major depression or OCD diagnosis like major depression or OCD or or that just the worried well um that or or that just the worried well um that or or that just the worried well um that you know a good life can include you know a good life can include you know a good life can include inevitably will include ups and downs. inevitably will include ups and downs. inevitably will include ups and downs. >> Yeah. Yeah. I know big ones. >> Yeah. Yeah. I know big ones. >> Yeah. Yeah. I know big ones. >> If you're cool with it, I I'll >> If you're cool with it, I I'll >> If you're cool with it, I I'll definitely want to get into your toolkit definitely want to get into your toolkit definitely want to get into your toolkit in a pretty big way. But before we go in a pretty big way. But before we go in a pretty big way. But before we go there, I'd be curious to hear a little there, I'd be curious to hear a little there, I'd be curious to hear a little bit more about your situation. You you bit more about your situation. You you bit more about your situation. You you mentioned depression, you mentioned OCD. mentioned depression, you mentioned OCD. mentioned depression, you mentioned OCD. Are they separate? Uh is one the product Are they separate? Uh is one the product Are they separate? Uh is one the product of another? How how does it work as far of another? How how does it work as far of another? How how does it work as far as you can tell? as you can tell? as you can tell? >> So, I'm definitely not an expert. I >> So, I'm definitely not an expert. I >> So, I'm definitely not an expert. I don't want to pretend to be an expert. don't want to pretend to be an expert. don't want to pretend to be an expert. Don't come to me for expert advice on Don't come to me for expert advice on Don't come to me for expert advice on anything, let alone mental health. Um, anything, let alone mental health. Um, anything, let alone mental health. Um, but my own experience has been, and I but my own experience has been, and I but my own experience has been, and I think this is backed up by research, think this is backed up by research, think this is backed up by research, that OCD is pretty highly correlated that OCD is pretty highly correlated that OCD is pretty highly correlated with major depression and and anxiety with major depression and and anxiety with major depression and and anxiety disorders. People who have OCD often disorders. People who have OCD often disorders. People who have OCD often also have conccommittent also have conccommittent also have conccommittent depression or anxiety problems. You depression or anxiety problems. You depression or anxiety problems. You know, for a long time, OCD was know, for a long time, OCD was know, for a long time, OCD was classified as an anxiety disorder, and classified as an anxiety disorder, and classified as an anxiety disorder, and now it's classified a little now it's classified a little now it's classified a little differently. But I I I don't know how differently. But I I I don't know how differently. But I I I don't know how much to depend on those classifications. much to depend on those classifications. much to depend on those classifications. I think my personal experience has been I think my personal experience has been I think my personal experience has been that not being able to close the loop on that not being able to close the loop on that not being able to close the loop on a thought spiral is extremely a thought spiral is extremely a thought spiral is extremely anxietyprovoking anxietyprovoking anxietyprovoking you know and so if for example I am you you know and so if for example I am you you know and so if for example I am you know I have a passing thought that there know I have a passing thought that there know I have a passing thought that there might be a radon problem in my might be a radon problem in my might be a radon problem in my house house house and I can't get rid of that thought and and I can't get rid of that thought and and I can't get rid of that thought and I can't reassure myself and I can't I can't reassure myself and I can't I can't reassure myself and I can't close the loop loop on that thought by close the loop loop on that thought by close the loop loop on that thought by finding certainty that there isn't a finding certainty that there isn't a finding certainty that there isn't a radon problem in my house even by radon problem in my house even by radon problem in my house even by installing a radon detector or calling installing a radon detector or calling installing a radon detector or calling the National Radon Federation or the National Radon Federation or the National Radon Federation or whatever and then it comes to a point whatever and then it comes to a point whatever and then it comes to a point where I'm using these compulsive where I'm using these compulsive where I'm using these compulsive behaviors making making phone calls behaviors making making phone calls behaviors making making phone calls checking checking checking you know checking checking checking you know checking checking checking you know reinstalling different radon detectors reinstalling different radon detectors reinstalling different radon detectors etc. That's a response to the etc. That's a response to the etc. That's a response to the overwhelming anxiety and the anxiety is overwhelming anxiety and the anxiety is overwhelming anxiety and the anxiety is born of the fact that I don't want my born of the fact that I don't want my born of the fact that I don't want my family to die. I don't want my family to family to die. I don't want my family to family to die. I don't want my family to die of radon poisoning or whatever else die of radon poisoning or whatever else die of radon poisoning or whatever else it is. So OCD tends to strike what we it is. So OCD tends to strike what we it is. So OCD tends to strike what we love the most and what we care about the love the most and what we care about the love the most and what we care about the most. It tends to strike us in the most. It tends to strike us in the most. It tends to strike us in the places that are the most relevant to us. places that are the most relevant to us. places that are the most relevant to us. And for me that's the health and And for me that's the health and And for me that's the health and wellbeing of my family a lot of times or wellbeing of my family a lot of times or wellbeing of my family a lot of times or the health and wellbeing of myself. the health and wellbeing of myself. the health and wellbeing of myself. That's what I have to manage I guess. That's what I have to manage I guess. That's what I have to manage I guess. And I like I said great benefit of And I like I said great benefit of And I like I said great benefit of having that toolkit is that it's easier having that toolkit is that it's easier having that toolkit is that it's easier to manage. But yeah, it's been to manage. But yeah, it's been to manage. But yeah, it's been incredibly hard over the years. I'm incredibly hard over the years. I'm incredibly hard over the years. I'm sorry that that really sucks. Um sorry that that really sucks. Um sorry that that really sucks. Um I am uh have some people who I'm very I am uh have some people who I'm very I am uh have some people who I'm very close to um extremely close to who have close to um extremely close to who have close to um extremely close to who have received that diagnosis of OCD. So I received that diagnosis of OCD. So I received that diagnosis of OCD. So I have some familiarity with it. But um have some familiarity with it. But um have some familiarity with it. But um just for those who don't um you talked just for those who don't um you talked just for those who don't um you talked about um these thought loops, these about um these thought loops, these about um these thought loops, these thought spirals, you know, I I can say thought spirals, you know, I I can say thought spirals, you know, I I can say and I think this is quite common that and I think this is quite common that and I think this is quite common that you know I I get into those you know I I get into those you know I I get into those occasionally. Like for me it's always occasionally. Like for me it's always occasionally. Like for me it's always very self-centered. Um, am I losing my very self-centered. Um, am I losing my very self-centered. Um, am I losing my hair and I just can't [ __ ] stop hair and I just can't [ __ ] stop hair and I just can't [ __ ] stop thinking about it or um uh I looked fat thinking about it or um uh I looked fat thinking about it or um uh I looked fat I think in some recent picture and I'm I think in some recent picture and I'm I think in some recent picture and I'm just going down the rabbit hole and I just going down the rabbit hole and I just going down the rabbit hole and I lit I just I'll literally lose sleep lit I just I'll literally lose sleep lit I just I'll literally lose sleep about it or we have a dip in our podcast about it or we have a dip in our podcast about it or we have a dip in our podcast numbers and I start thinking I'm going numbers and I start thinking I'm going numbers and I start thinking I'm going to have to, you know, sell the house or to have to, you know, sell the house or to have to, you know, sell the house or whatever it is. Um, my understanding, whatever it is. Um, my understanding, whatever it is. Um, my understanding, and you'll tell me if if I'm wrong about and you'll tell me if if I'm wrong about and you'll tell me if if I'm wrong about this, is that OCD is that normal thing, this, is that OCD is that normal thing, this, is that OCD is that normal thing, but just exponentially worse. but just exponentially worse. but just exponentially worse. >> Yeah. Just where it completely takes >> Yeah. Just where it completely takes >> Yeah. Just where it completely takes over your your ability to be conscious over your your ability to be conscious over your your ability to be conscious in the world so that I can't read a in the world so that I can't read a in the world so that I can't read a menu, let alone a book. Um, you know, I menu, let alone a book. Um, you know, I menu, let alone a book. Um, you know, I I there's this great end of St. Vincent I there's this great end of St. Vincent I there's this great end of St. Vincent Malay poem I quote sometimes. I think Malay poem I quote sometimes. I think Malay poem I quote sometimes. I think she's talking about depression, but it she's talking about depression, but it she's talking about depression, but it works for OCD, too. She says, um, "Night works for OCD, too. She says, um, "Night works for OCD, too. She says, um, "Night falls fast. Today is in the past, blown falls fast. Today is in the past, blown falls fast. Today is in the past, blown from the dark hill, hither to my door. from the dark hill, hither to my door. from the dark hill, hither to my door. Three flakes, then four arrive, then Three flakes, then four arrive, then Three flakes, then four arrive, then many more." And it's like that for me. many more." And it's like that for me. many more." And it's like that for me. It's like there's like three snowflakes It's like there's like three snowflakes It's like there's like three snowflakes of thoughts and then a fourth one and of thoughts and then a fourth one and of thoughts and then a fourth one and then it's an absolute white blinding then it's an absolute white blinding then it's an absolute white blinding blizzard uh where I just can't I can't blizzard uh where I just can't I can't blizzard uh where I just can't I can't think about anything else. I can't think about anything else. I can't think about anything else. I can't distract myself from the thought. I can distract myself from the thought. I can distract myself from the thought. I can only use there's a reason that for me only use there's a reason that for me only use there's a reason that for me that the O comes first in OCD that the that the O comes first in OCD that the that the O comes first in OCD that the obsessive thoughts come first and then obsessive thoughts come first and then obsessive thoughts come first and then the compulsive compulsive behaviors are the compulsive compulsive behaviors are the compulsive compulsive behaviors are really born of a desire to control that really born of a desire to control that really born of a desire to control that fear in some way some trying to find fear in some way some trying to find fear in some way some trying to find some way to handle the the the obsessive some way to handle the the the obsessive some way to handle the the the obsessive fear. Um some way to reassure yourself, fear. Um some way to reassure yourself, fear. Um some way to reassure yourself, some way to calm down. And the problem some way to calm down. And the problem some way to calm down. And the problem is that over time those strategies that is that over time those strategies that is that over time those strategies that you develop, those compulsive behaviors you develop, those compulsive behaviors you develop, those compulsive behaviors you develop to try to deal with these you develop to try to deal with these you develop to try to deal with these obsessive thoughts, they they become obsessive thoughts, they they become obsessive thoughts, they they become quite isolating at times quite quite isolating at times quite quite isolating at times quite paralyzing and overwhelming on their own paralyzing and overwhelming on their own paralyzing and overwhelming on their own as well. as well. as well. >> I I could imagine that both the >> I I could imagine that both the >> I I could imagine that both the obsession and the compulsivity would be obsession and the compulsivity would be obsession and the compulsivity would be isolating because they're they're isolating because they're they're isolating because they're they're driving you deeper into the tunnel of of driving you deeper into the tunnel of of driving you deeper into the tunnel of of yourself. yourself. yourself. >> Yeah. No, everyone else lives on planet >> Yeah. No, everyone else lives on planet >> Yeah. No, everyone else lives on planet Earth and I live on planet. My family's Earth and I live on planet. My family's Earth and I live on planet. My family's about to die from radon poisoning. about to die from radon poisoning. about to die from radon poisoning. >> Right. Right. It's amazing to me how >> Right. Right. It's amazing to me how >> Right. Right. It's amazing to me how much you have gotten done and continue much you have gotten done and continue much you have gotten done and continue to get done with these incredible books to get done with these incredible books to get done with these incredible books you've produced and this YouTube um you've produced and this YouTube um you've produced and this YouTube um juggernaut um Never Mind um uh building juggernaut um Never Mind um uh building juggernaut um Never Mind um uh building and sustaining a family. Uh yeah, I just and sustaining a family. Uh yeah, I just and sustaining a family. Uh yeah, I just find that very impressive. I don't know find that very impressive. I don't know find that very impressive. I don't know if this is a question, but I just I want if this is a question, but I just I want if this is a question, but I just I want to say I find it very impressive how to say I find it very impressive how to say I find it very impressive how much you've been able to get done. much you've been able to get done. much you've been able to get done. >> Well, I think you know this is a more >> Well, I think you know this is a more >> Well, I think you know this is a more ordinary story than people think it is. ordinary story than people think it is. ordinary story than people think it is. Um I think a lot of us who live with Um I think a lot of us who live with Um I think a lot of us who live with serious mental illness also have rich serious mental illness also have rich serious mental illness also have rich and fulfilling lives and there are times and fulfilling lives and there are times and fulfilling lives and there are times when you know a chronic illness really when you know a chronic illness really when you know a chronic illness really controls what you're able to do and controls what you're able to do and controls what you're able to do and that's very frustrating. I get really that's very frustrating. I get really that's very frustrating. I get really really frustrated when I'm less really frustrated when I'm less really frustrated when I'm less productive than I want to be or when I productive than I want to be or when I productive than I want to be or when I feel like being unwell is hampering my feel like being unwell is hampering my feel like being unwell is hampering my ability to be in the world. But um you ability to be in the world. But um you ability to be in the world. But um you know there's a lot of ways to be in the know there's a lot of ways to be in the know there's a lot of ways to be in the world and I think narrow constructions world and I think narrow constructions world and I think narrow constructions of productivity you know writing x of productivity you know writing x of productivity you know writing x number of books or making y number of number of books or making y number of number of books or making y number of videos really can I think sometimes videos really can I think sometimes videos really can I think sometimes distract us from what's what's really distract us from what's what's really distract us from what's what's really productive. There's a great line in one productive. There's a great line in one productive. There's a great line in one of my brother's books where he writes um of my brother's books where he writes um of my brother's books where he writes um that you will always be unhappy until that you will always be unhappy until that you will always be unhappy until you realize that one of the things you you realize that one of the things you you realize that one of the things you need to produce is your own joy. And need to produce is your own joy. And need to produce is your own joy. And that's something that I'm you know maybe that's something that I'm you know maybe that's something that I'm you know maybe haven't focused on enough in terms of my haven't focused on enough in terms of my haven't focused on enough in terms of my thinking about production. So I I don't thinking about production. So I I don't thinking about production. So I I don't want to just think about oh I produce want to just think about oh I produce want to just think about oh I produce videos and books. I I want to think videos and books. I I want to think videos and books. I I want to think about how I also produce memories and about how I also produce memories and about how I also produce memories and experiences and and joy and rich experiences and and joy and rich experiences and and joy and rich richness and connection with other richness and connection with other richness and connection with other people. A lot of people will be familiar people. A lot of people will be familiar people. A lot of people will be familiar with your brother Hank, your best with your brother Hank, your best with your brother Hank, your best friend, co partner in crime. Do you friend, co partner in crime. Do you friend, co partner in crime. Do you think he was saying that we need to take think he was saying that we need to take think he was saying that we need to take care of ourselves uh before we can be care of ourselves uh before we can be care of ourselves uh before we can be productive? In other words, if we productive? In other words, if we productive? In other words, if we understand productivity even from a understand productivity even from a understand productivity even from a reductive standpoint of getting [ __ ] reductive standpoint of getting [ __ ] reductive standpoint of getting [ __ ] done in the world, actually joy makes done in the world, actually joy makes done in the world, actually joy makes sense even within that POV because sense even within that POV because sense even within that POV because you're just really not going to be good you're just really not going to be good you're just really not going to be good at what you're doing without the joy. at what you're doing without the joy. at what you're doing without the joy. Yeah. And also alongside the other stuff Yeah. And also alongside the other stuff Yeah. And also alongside the other stuff that there needs to be a measure of joy that there needs to be a measure of joy that there needs to be a measure of joy within the work itself. I think um you within the work itself. I think um you within the work itself. I think um you know I'm really lucky that a lot of the know I'm really lucky that a lot of the know I'm really lucky that a lot of the work I do not just working on books but work I do not just working on books but work I do not just working on books but also working on crash course with a team also working on crash course with a team also working on crash course with a team of people uh is is also joyful work. You of people uh is is also joyful work. You of people uh is is also joyful work. You know it's it's it's work that deepens my know it's it's it's work that deepens my know it's it's it's work that deepens my connections with other people that uh connections with other people that uh connections with other people that uh feels fulfilling. I find a lot of feels fulfilling. I find a lot of feels fulfilling. I find a lot of consolation and encouragement in a sense consolation and encouragement in a sense consolation and encouragement in a sense of purpose. And when I don't feel a of purpose. And when I don't feel a of purpose. And when I don't feel a strong sense of purpose, it's it's strong sense of purpose, it's it's strong sense of purpose, it's it's pretty hard for me to even get out of pretty hard for me to even get out of pretty hard for me to even get out of bed in the morning. But when I do, it's bed in the morning. But when I do, it's bed in the morning. But when I do, it's a lot easier. Uh the lot of things that a lot easier. Uh the lot of things that a lot easier. Uh the lot of things that would otherwise overwhelm me can kind of would otherwise overwhelm me can kind of would otherwise overwhelm me can kind of fall by the wayside because I can tell fall by the wayside because I can tell fall by the wayside because I can tell myself, well, I know why I'm doing this. myself, well, I know why I'm doing this. myself, well, I know why I'm doing this. I know why I'm on book tour. I know why I know why I'm on book tour. I know why I know why I'm on book tour. I know why I'm getting out of bed in the morning. I I'm getting out of bed in the morning. I I'm getting out of bed in the morning. I know I'm do, you know, making podcasts know I'm do, you know, making podcasts know I'm do, you know, making podcasts and videos and stuff and when I have and videos and stuff and when I have and videos and stuff and when I have that clear sense of purpose, it's a lot that clear sense of purpose, it's a lot that clear sense of purpose, it's a lot easier for me. easier for me. easier for me. >> Well, it feels like now we've kind of >> Well, it feels like now we've kind of >> Well, it feels like now we've kind of stepped into the toolkit. Um, you know stepped into the toolkit. Um, you know stepped into the toolkit. Um, you know what what and again with the caveat that what what and again with the caveat that what what and again with the caveat that you're not a mental health professional. you're not a mental health professional. you're not a mental health professional. You're we're just talking about what you You're we're just talking about what you You're we're just talking about what you personally do um to keep your [ __ ] personally do um to keep your [ __ ] personally do um to keep your [ __ ] together to the best of your ability. together to the best of your ability. together to the best of your ability. And it sounds it sounds like you just And it sounds it sounds like you just And it sounds it sounds like you just listed two things that are related. One listed two things that are related. One listed two things that are related. One is creative work. is creative work. is creative work. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Maybe three things. One, creative work, >> Maybe three things. One, creative work, >> Maybe three things. One, creative work, a sense of purpose, and then doing it a sense of purpose, and then doing it a sense of purpose, and then doing it with a team you enjoy working with. with a team you enjoy working with. with a team you enjoy working with. >> Yeah. My my great friend, the late Paul >> Yeah. My my great friend, the late Paul >> Yeah. My my great friend, the late Paul Farmer, who co-founded Partners in Farmer, who co-founded Partners in Farmer, who co-founded Partners in Health, said almost everything that you Health, said almost everything that you Health, said almost everything that you do in your life that's valuable will be do in your life that's valuable will be do in your life that's valuable will be done in partnership. And I found that to done in partnership. And I found that to done in partnership. And I found that to be true. Even writing a book, which be true. Even writing a book, which be true. Even writing a book, which feels like a very, you know, lonely feels like a very, you know, lonely feels like a very, you know, lonely ivory tower kind of work is in fact ivory tower kind of work is in fact ivory tower kind of work is in fact deeply collaborative. deeply deeply collaborative. deeply deeply collaborative. deeply collaborative with my editor, with my collaborative with my editor, with my collaborative with my editor, with my publicist, with the marketing team, you publicist, with the marketing team, you publicist, with the marketing team, you know, um with the people who lay out the know, um with the people who lay out the know, um with the people who lay out the book and decide the the font and book and decide the the font and book and decide the the font and everything and the cover and all of that everything and the cover and all of that everything and the cover and all of that collaborative work is really really collaborative work is really really collaborative work is really really important. And um it doesn't exist important. And um it doesn't exist important. And um it doesn't exist separate from the writing process for separate from the writing process for separate from the writing process for me, but as part of it. And then making me, but as part of it. And then making me, but as part of it. And then making YouTube videos is inherently YouTube videos is inherently YouTube videos is inherently collaborative as well because it collaborative as well because it collaborative as well because it requires a team of people. I mean, I requires a team of people. I mean, I requires a team of people. I mean, I still make Vlog Brothers videos alone in still make Vlog Brothers videos alone in still make Vlog Brothers videos alone in my basement by myself every Tuesday, but my basement by myself every Tuesday, but my basement by myself every Tuesday, but even that's a collaboration because it's even that's a collaboration because it's even that's a collaboration because it's a collaboration with the audience, a a collaboration with the audience, a a collaboration with the audience, a collaboration with my brother. I I I do collaboration with my brother. I I I do collaboration with my brother. I I I do find a lot of encouragement in find a lot of encouragement in find a lot of encouragement in collaboration and in creative work and I collaboration and in creative work and I collaboration and in creative work and I used to think that the only purpose of used to think that the only purpose of used to think that the only purpose of creative work was to reach an audience creative work was to reach an audience creative work was to reach an audience and to, you know, that it had to be made and to, you know, that it had to be made and to, you know, that it had to be made as a gift for the audience and that that as a gift for the audience and that that as a gift for the audience and that that was the point of it. These days I find was the point of it. These days I find was the point of it. These days I find myself thinking that in fact there's a myself thinking that in fact there's a myself thinking that in fact there's a lot of the lot that I get from it and lot of the lot that I get from it and lot of the lot that I get from it and that's okay. In fact that's good. You that's okay. In fact that's good. You that's okay. In fact that's good. You know I I would write novels even if they know I I would write novels even if they know I I would write novels even if they were for an audience of zero because I were for an audience of zero because I were for an audience of zero because I find a lot of fulfillment in it. Um I find a lot of fulfillment in it. Um I find a lot of fulfillment in it. Um I really enjoy it and I really learn from really enjoy it and I really learn from really enjoy it and I really learn from from it. I learn about myself. I learn from it. I learn about myself. I learn from it. I learn about myself. I learn about other people. For me, writing about other people. For me, writing about other people. For me, writing fiction is a mirror in the sense that of fiction is a mirror in the sense that of fiction is a mirror in the sense that of course it's coming from me and I'm I'm course it's coming from me and I'm I'm course it's coming from me and I'm I'm the one writing it and so it's revealing the one writing it and so it's revealing the one writing it and so it's revealing of to me of my own the sort of the of to me of my own the sort of the of to me of my own the sort of the deeper rooms of myself. But it's also uh deeper rooms of myself. But it's also uh deeper rooms of myself. But it's also uh a window. It's a window into what other a window. It's a window into what other a window. It's a window into what other people's lives might be like. A window people's lives might be like. A window people's lives might be like. A window into trying to imagine, you know, that into trying to imagine, you know, that into trying to imagine, you know, that that other people have just as complex that other people have just as complex that other people have just as complex and multitudinous an experience as I do. and multitudinous an experience as I do. and multitudinous an experience as I do. I absolutely believe that creative work I absolutely believe that creative work I absolutely believe that creative work can be an antidote to all manner of can be an antidote to all manner of can be an antidote to all manner of despair. Um, and yet I'm I'm curious. I despair. Um, and yet I'm I'm curious. I despair. Um, and yet I'm I'm curious. I mean, as somebody who is himself in the mean, as somebody who is himself in the mean, as somebody who is himself in the middle of uh finishing up a book, I find middle of uh finishing up a book, I find middle of uh finishing up a book, I find that that it also produces despair. that that it also produces despair. that that it also produces despair. >> Yeah, fair enough. >> Yeah, fair enough. >> Yeah, fair enough. >> Hard. >> Hard. >> Hard. >> It is hard, especially when you're >> It is hard, especially when you're >> It is hard, especially when you're trying to finish something. I think for trying to finish something. I think for trying to finish something. I think for me the draft the initial drafting the me the draft the initial drafting the me the draft the initial drafting the initial writing of a of a story or a initial writing of a of a story or a initial writing of a of a story or a book is full of discovery and and book is full of discovery and and book is full of discovery and and intoxicating intoxicating intoxicating intrigue and uh there's there's real intrigue and uh there's there's real intrigue and uh there's there's real thrill in it. And then even in the first thrill in it. And then even in the first thrill in it. And then even in the first set of revisions or so, you're still set of revisions or so, you're still set of revisions or so, you're still discovering so much about the story and discovering so much about the story and discovering so much about the story and you're still finding connections to um you're still finding connections to um you're still finding connections to um to other worlds. It's like when I was to other worlds. It's like when I was to other worlds. It's like when I was writing my most recent book, Everything writing my most recent book, Everything writing my most recent book, Everything Is Tuberculosis, I remember in revision, Is Tuberculosis, I remember in revision, Is Tuberculosis, I remember in revision, I was really trying to balance the story I was really trying to balance the story I was really trying to balance the story of this young boy trying to survive of this young boy trying to survive of this young boy trying to survive multi-drugresistant tuberculosis with multi-drugresistant tuberculosis with multi-drugresistant tuberculosis with the history of of this this disease the history of of this this disease the history of of this this disease that's killed so many billions of that's killed so many billions of that's killed so many billions of people. And I was still really enjoying people. And I was still really enjoying people. And I was still really enjoying that. And then by the third draft or so, that. And then by the third draft or so, that. And then by the third draft or so, it was just drudgery. It was really, you it was just drudgery. It was really, you it was just drudgery. It was really, you know, trying to get it right, not for know, trying to get it right, not for know, trying to get it right, not for myself or my personal fulfillment, but myself or my personal fulfillment, but myself or my personal fulfillment, but for the reader, which is of course for the reader, which is of course for the reader, which is of course extremely important, but it is really extremely important, but it is really extremely important, but it is really frustrating. And there are times when frustrating. And there are times when frustrating. And there are times when you're doing creative work when it's you're doing creative work when it's you're doing creative work when it's super frustrating because you can't super frustrating because you can't super frustrating because you can't figure out a way into it. You can't figure out a way into it. You can't figure out a way into it. You can't figure out the what you're trying to do. figure out the what you're trying to do. figure out the what you're trying to do. And that's really, really hard. Um, but And that's really, really hard. Um, but And that's really, really hard. Um, but hard is not the opposite of fun. hard is not the opposite of fun. hard is not the opposite of fun. And and I try to remind myself of that And and I try to remind myself of that And and I try to remind myself of that that like hard is not the opposite of that like hard is not the opposite of that like hard is not the opposite of fulfilling. fulfilling. fulfilling. Hard is just the opposite of easy. And Hard is just the opposite of easy. And Hard is just the opposite of easy. And there are lots of things that are hard there are lots of things that are hard there are lots of things that are hard that are also worthy. I want to signal that are also worthy. I want to signal that are also worthy. I want to signal to the le to the listener that I have to the le to the listener that I have to the le to the listener that I have not lost the thread. We will come back not lost the thread. We will come back not lost the thread. We will come back to uh John's um uh toolkit because I to uh John's um uh toolkit because I to uh John's um uh toolkit because I think that will be of high interest for think that will be of high interest for think that will be of high interest for this audience. But you did mention your this audience. But you did mention your this audience. But you did mention your recent book, Everything Is Tuberculosis. recent book, Everything Is Tuberculosis. recent book, Everything Is Tuberculosis. And I want to we're going to read a And I want to we're going to read a And I want to we're going to read a little bit from one passage that my ace little bit from one passage that my ace little bit from one passage that my ace producer on this episode, Eleanor, producer on this episode, Eleanor, producer on this episode, Eleanor, identified. I should acknowledge, I identified. I should acknowledge, I identified. I should acknowledge, I guess, that one reason I'm interested in guess, that one reason I'm interested in guess, that one reason I'm interested in TB is that I have obsessivempulsive TB is that I have obsessivempulsive TB is that I have obsessivempulsive disorder. And my particular obsessive disorder. And my particular obsessive disorder. And my particular obsessive worries tend to circle around microbes worries tend to circle around microbes worries tend to circle around microbes and illness. Before the germ theory of and illness. Before the germ theory of and illness. Before the germ theory of disease, we did not know that around disease, we did not know that around disease, we did not know that around half the cells in my body do not in fact half the cells in my body do not in fact half the cells in my body do not in fact belong to my body. They are bacteria and belong to my body. They are bacteria and belong to my body. They are bacteria and other microscopic organisms colonizing other microscopic organisms colonizing other microscopic organisms colonizing me. And to one degree or another, these me. And to one degree or another, these me. And to one degree or another, these microorganisms can also control the microorganisms can also control the microorganisms can also control the body, shaping the body's contours by body, shaping the body's contours by body, shaping the body's contours by making it gain or lose weight, sickening making it gain or lose weight, sickening making it gain or lose weight, sickening the body, killing the body. There's even the body, killing the body. There's even the body, killing the body. There's even emerging evidence that one's microbiome emerging evidence that one's microbiome emerging evidence that one's microbiome may have a relationship with thought may have a relationship with thought may have a relationship with thought itself through the gut brain information itself through the gut brain information itself through the gut brain information access. meaning that at least some of my access. meaning that at least some of my access. meaning that at least some of my thoughts may belong not to me but to the thoughts may belong not to me but to the thoughts may belong not to me but to the microorganisms in my digestive tract. microorganisms in my digestive tract. microorganisms in my digestive tract. Research indicates that certain gut Research indicates that certain gut Research indicates that certain gut microbiomes are associated with major microbiomes are associated with major microbiomes are associated with major depression and anxiety disorders. In depression and anxiety disorders. In depression and anxiety disorders. In fact, it's possible that my particular fact, it's possible that my particular fact, it's possible that my particular microbiome is at least partly microbiome is at least partly microbiome is at least partly responsible for my OCD, meaning that the responsible for my OCD, meaning that the responsible for my OCD, meaning that the microbes are the reason I'm so deeply microbes are the reason I'm so deeply microbes are the reason I'm so deeply afraid of microbes. It's a fascinating afraid of microbes. It's a fascinating afraid of microbes. It's a fascinating reading and reading and reading and it just makes me wonder like why would it just makes me wonder like why would it just makes me wonder like why would you want to dedicate yourself to a book you want to dedicate yourself to a book you want to dedicate yourself to a book about the thing that terrifies you? about the thing that terrifies you? about the thing that terrifies you? >> Well, because I'm I'm interested in it, >> Well, because I'm I'm interested in it, >> Well, because I'm I'm interested in it, for lack of a better term. I feel like, for lack of a better term. I feel like, for lack of a better term. I feel like, you know, there's a great Virginia Wolf you know, there's a great Virginia Wolf you know, there's a great Virginia Wolf line where she writes about how uh given line where she writes about how uh given line where she writes about how uh given the extent to which illness has shaped the extent to which illness has shaped the extent to which illness has shaped our lives and and has shaped our our lives and and has shaped our our lives and and has shaped our communities, you would think that great communities, you would think that great communities, you would think that great epics would be written about it epics would be written about it epics would be written about it alongside love and um you know, war and alongside love and um you know, war and alongside love and um you know, war and the other great topics of of of epic the other great topics of of of epic the other great topics of of of epic literature. And yet, relatively rarely literature. And yet, relatively rarely literature. And yet, relatively rarely do we do we write and read about do we do we write and read about do we do we write and read about illness. And I've always, I guess, been illness. And I've always, I guess, been illness. And I've always, I guess, been of that Virginia Wolf persuasion that we of that Virginia Wolf persuasion that we of that Virginia Wolf persuasion that we should write and read about it more and should write and read about it more and should write and read about it more and think about it uh more. Now, I sometimes think about it uh more. Now, I sometimes think about it uh more. Now, I sometimes think about it unhealthily, but I I want think about it unhealthily, but I I want think about it unhealthily, but I I want to understand it. I want to understand to understand it. I want to understand to understand it. I want to understand it because I want to understand myself, it because I want to understand myself, it because I want to understand myself, but I also want to understand it because but I also want to understand it because but I also want to understand it because I want to understand my community and my I want to understand my community and my I want to understand my community and my my social order. Like, what does it mean my social order. Like, what does it mean my social order. Like, what does it mean to live in a world where a million to live in a world where a million to live in a world where a million people die every year of a disease we've people die every year of a disease we've people die every year of a disease we've known how to cure since the 1950s? What known how to cure since the 1950s? What known how to cure since the 1950s? What does that say about us? What does that does that say about us? What does that does that say about us? What does that say about the the world we share and the say about the the world we share and the say about the the world we share and the world we might share instead? But I also world we might share instead? But I also world we might share instead? But I also want to write about it because it does want to write about it because it does want to write about it because it does just fascinate me. Um illness fascinates just fascinate me. Um illness fascinates just fascinate me. Um illness fascinates me. Temporariness of us and and me. Temporariness of us and and me. Temporariness of us and and everything we love fascinates me and uh everything we love fascinates me and uh everything we love fascinates me and uh I I haven't fully reconciled myself to I I haven't fully reconciled myself to I I haven't fully reconciled myself to it. it. it. >> What does it say about us that hundreds >> What does it say about us that hundreds >> What does it say about us that hundreds of thousands of people are dying all the of thousands of people are dying all the of thousands of people are dying all the time from this disease that we know how time from this disease that we know how time from this disease that we know how to cure? And at the same time, you know, to cure? And at the same time, you know, to cure? And at the same time, you know, our government, the United States our government, the United States our government, the United States government, both of us are citizens of government, both of us are citizens of government, both of us are citizens of the United States. Our government has the United States. Our government has the United States. Our government has pulled back from funding global health pulled back from funding global health pulled back from funding global health in ways that appear to be like directly in ways that appear to be like directly in ways that appear to be like directly leading to fight fatalities. leading to fight fatalities. leading to fight fatalities. >> Yeah. No, I I don't think you need to >> Yeah. No, I I don't think you need to >> Yeah. No, I I don't think you need to say appear to be. I think it it is. And say appear to be. I think it it is. And say appear to be. I think it it is. And we saw hundreds of thousands of people we saw hundreds of thousands of people we saw hundreds of thousands of people get their treatment interrupted. And we get their treatment interrupted. And we get their treatment interrupted. And we know that when your treatment for know that when your treatment for know that when your treatment for tuberculosis is interrupted, so it takes tuberculosis is interrupted, so it takes tuberculosis is interrupted, so it takes about four months of daily antibiotics about four months of daily antibiotics about four months of daily antibiotics usually to cure TB. And um if we don't usually to cure TB. And um if we don't usually to cure TB. And um if we don't get those medicines to someone every day get those medicines to someone every day get those medicines to someone every day and there's a there's a period where and there's a there's a period where and there's a there's a period where they don't take any medicine, it's it's they don't take any medicine, it's it's they don't take any medicine, it's it's quite likely that they'll develop drug quite likely that they'll develop drug quite likely that they'll develop drug resistance. And that's a real real resistance. And that's a real real resistance. And that's a real real challenge, especially in the case of challenge, especially in the case of challenge, especially in the case of extensive drug resistance. you know, extensive drug resistance. you know, extensive drug resistance. you know, that that can make TB much harder to that that can make TB much harder to that that can make TB much harder to cure and and in in some cases in some cure and and in in some cases in some cure and and in in some cases in some communities make it make it impossible. communities make it make it impossible. communities make it make it impossible. And so, we're losing 4,000 people a day And so, we're losing 4,000 people a day And so, we're losing 4,000 people a day to tuberculosis. But, uh, I think that to tuberculosis. But, uh, I think that to tuberculosis. But, uh, I think that as a result of the the pullback, you as a result of the the pullback, you as a result of the the pullback, you know, in the next few years, we we'll know, in the next few years, we we'll know, in the next few years, we we'll see we'll see more people dying of TB see we'll see more people dying of TB see we'll see more people dying of TB rather than than than less. And that'll rather than than than less. And that'll rather than than than less. And that'll really be the first time since the 18th really be the first time since the 18th really be the first time since the 18th century that that the number of people century that that the number of people century that that the number of people dying of tuberculosis goes up instead of dying of tuberculosis goes up instead of dying of tuberculosis goes up instead of down. And that really is an indictment down. And that really is an indictment down. And that really is an indictment of the way we distribute resources, not of the way we distribute resources, not of the way we distribute resources, not just in the United States, to be clear, just in the United States, to be clear, just in the United States, to be clear, but also also in other wealthy but also also in other wealthy but also also in other wealthy countries. Ultimately, TB exists because countries. Ultimately, TB exists because countries. Ultimately, TB exists because we allow it to exist. And that's what I we allow it to exist. And that's what I we allow it to exist. And that's what I wanted to write about. I wanted to write wanted to write about. I wanted to write wanted to write about. I wanted to write about there's all kinds of things in about there's all kinds of things in about there's all kinds of things in life that are just unfair. You know, life that are just unfair. You know, life that are just unfair. You know, it's not fair that I have OCD. It's not it's not fair that I have OCD. It's not it's not fair that I have OCD. It's not fair that my brother had cancer a couple fair that my brother had cancer a couple fair that my brother had cancer a couple years ago. It's not fair that, you know, years ago. It's not fair that, you know, years ago. It's not fair that, you know, kids die of of of cancer. You know, all kids die of of of cancer. You know, all kids die of of of cancer. You know, all kinds of things in life are unfair. But kinds of things in life are unfair. But kinds of things in life are unfair. But when we have the tools to do something when we have the tools to do something when we have the tools to do something about injustice and we don't use those about injustice and we don't use those about injustice and we don't use those tools, that makes me especially angry tools, that makes me especially angry tools, that makes me especially angry and frustrated because it's not just and frustrated because it's not just and frustrated because it's not just that it's unfair because we don't know that it's unfair because we don't know that it's unfair because we don't know what to do. It's unfair and we do know what to do. It's unfair and we do know what to do. It's unfair and we do know what to do. We're just choosing not to what to do. We're just choosing not to what to do. We're just choosing not to do it. do it. do it. Yeah, I think another word you could Yeah, I think another word you could Yeah, I think another word you could describe aside from it being unfair and describe aside from it being unfair and describe aside from it being unfair and cruel is is stupid. Like we it's not cruel is is stupid. Like we it's not cruel is is stupid. Like we it's not like we don't share the planet with the like we don't share the planet with the like we don't share the planet with the other people with this communicable other people with this communicable other people with this communicable disease. disease. disease. >> Exactly. Yeah. I mean, it is really >> Exactly. Yeah. I mean, it is really >> Exactly. Yeah. I mean, it is really stupid to allow tuberculosis to still be stupid to allow tuberculosis to still be stupid to allow tuberculosis to still be a thing. Um, you know, it gives a thing. Um, you know, it gives a thing. Um, you know, it gives tuberculosis a lot of opportunities to tuberculosis a lot of opportunities to tuberculosis a lot of opportunities to develop further drug resistance and develop further drug resistance and develop further drug resistance and eventually it could develop resistance eventually it could develop resistance eventually it could develop resistance to all our tools and we could go back to to all our tools and we could go back to to all our tools and we could go back to a world like the one we lived in, you a world like the one we lived in, you a world like the one we lived in, you know, 90 years ago where my great uncle know, 90 years ago where my great uncle know, 90 years ago where my great uncle Stokes Goodrich died of tuberculosis in Stokes Goodrich died of tuberculosis in Stokes Goodrich died of tuberculosis in a sanatorium in North Carolina. That um a sanatorium in North Carolina. That um a sanatorium in North Carolina. That um that is not unthinkable. that is not unthinkable. that is not unthinkable. I think that it's it's stupid. It's I think that it's it's stupid. It's I think that it's it's stupid. It's callous and it reveals I mean I guess callous and it reveals I mean I guess callous and it reveals I mean I guess what's most interesting and distressing what's most interesting and distressing what's most interesting and distressing to me is that it reveals this deep truth to me is that it reveals this deep truth to me is that it reveals this deep truth about about humans which is that we know about about humans which is that we know about about humans which is that we know in our guts that all human lives are in our guts that all human lives are in our guts that all human lives are equally valuable and and equally equally valuable and and equally equally valuable and and equally multitudinous and equally complex and multitudinous and equally complex and multitudinous and equally complex and rich and yet we don't build systems that rich and yet we don't build systems that rich and yet we don't build systems that reflect that reality. And some of that reflect that reality. And some of that reflect that reality. And some of that is because of you know the nature of is because of you know the nature of is because of you know the nature of structural impoverishment going back for structural impoverishment going back for structural impoverishment going back for centuries. Some of it is because when centuries. Some of it is because when centuries. Some of it is because when lives feel distant from ours because lives feel distant from ours because lives feel distant from ours because people may not speak the same language people may not speak the same language people may not speak the same language or may not use the same tools of the or may not use the same tools of the or may not use the same tools of the social internet, it's easier to dismiss social internet, it's easier to dismiss social internet, it's easier to dismiss those lives. But ultimately, that's a those lives. But ultimately, that's a those lives. But ultimately, that's a that's a failure of empathy. I mean, we that's a failure of empathy. I mean, we that's a failure of empathy. I mean, we do have some technology problems when it do have some technology problems when it do have some technology problems when it comes to tuberculosis and other comes to tuberculosis and other comes to tuberculosis and other communicable diseases. But the biggest communicable diseases. But the biggest communicable diseases. But the biggest challenge we have is an empathy challenge we have is an empathy challenge we have is an empathy challenge. challenge. challenge. Paleo Valley is a health and wellness Paleo Valley is a health and wellness Paleo Valley is a health and wellness brand that focuses on creating brand that focuses on creating brand that focuses on creating nutrient-dense, whole food sourced nutrient-dense, whole food sourced nutrient-dense, whole food sourced organic products. The brand's mission is organic products. 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Run your business smarter with Square. Run your business smarter with Square. Get started [music] today. So the other the other thing that that So the other the other thing that that great passage I just from you that I great passage I just from you that I great passage I just from you that I just read back to you. The other thing just read back to you. The other thing just read back to you. The other thing that it the other question it raises is that it the other question it raises is that it the other question it raises is um and this this seems to come up a lot um and this this seems to come up a lot um and this this seems to come up a lot in your work and in your interviews is in your work and in your interviews is in your work and in your interviews is the insubstantiality the unfindability the insubstantiality the unfindability the insubstantiality the unfindability of the self. Like how can John call of the self. Like how can John call of the self. Like how can John call himself fully John if himself fully John if himself fully John if >> his microbe is populated by other >> his microbe is populated by other >> his microbe is populated by other beings? beings? beings? >> Indeed, half the cells that are that are >> Indeed, half the cells that are that are >> Indeed, half the cells that are that are made up of me are not mine. Um yeah, made up of me are not mine. Um yeah, made up of me are not mine. Um yeah, that's a little distressing to me. I that's a little distressing to me. I that's a little distressing to me. I find I I I have a hard time with that find I I I have a hard time with that find I I I have a hard time with that one. But of course, self is incredibly one. But of course, self is incredibly one. But of course, self is incredibly complicated. Self is in many ways an complicated. Self is in many ways an complicated. Self is in many ways an illusion. Like I'm not the same person I illusion. Like I'm not the same person I illusion. Like I'm not the same person I was 30 years ago. I don't have many of was 30 years ago. I don't have many of was 30 years ago. I don't have many of the same cells. I don't have a lot of the same cells. I don't have a lot of the same cells. I don't have a lot of the same world view. I've grown and the same world view. I've grown and the same world view. I've grown and changed a lot and I hope that I can say changed a lot and I hope that I can say changed a lot and I hope that I can say the same 30 years from now. Self is a the same 30 years from now. Self is a the same 30 years from now. Self is a story that we tell ourselves and we need story that we tell ourselves and we need story that we tell ourselves and we need to make it an expansive story so that to make it an expansive story so that to make it an expansive story so that we're not stuck being the self that we we're not stuck being the self that we we're not stuck being the self that we that we were 5 or 10 or 20 years ago. Uh that we were 5 or 10 or 20 years ago. Uh that we were 5 or 10 or 20 years ago. Uh we we don't want to get stuck in that we we don't want to get stuck in that we we don't want to get stuck in that that story so much that we don't keep an that story so much that we don't keep an that story so much that we don't keep an open mind to be able to change and grow. open mind to be able to change and grow. open mind to be able to change and grow. And so if there's a positive to me from And so if there's a positive to me from And so if there's a positive to me from the fact that half the cells in my body the fact that half the cells in my body the fact that half the cells in my body aren't mine, if there's an upside to it, aren't mine, if there's an upside to it, aren't mine, if there's an upside to it, it's if there's an upside to the fact it's if there's an upside to the fact it's if there's an upside to the fact that the soul is not something that you that the soul is not something that you that the soul is not something that you can uh you know go into the body and and can uh you know go into the body and and can uh you know go into the body and and and pull out with a pair of tweezers, and pull out with a pair of tweezers, and pull out with a pair of tweezers, it's the fact that that means that that it's the fact that that means that that it's the fact that that means that that my self is also malleable. My self can my self is also malleable. My self can my self is also malleable. My self can also change and and and grow. And uh also change and and and grow. And uh also change and and and grow. And uh that's actually an encouragement, I that's actually an encouragement, I that's actually an encouragement, I think. So I try to see the upside of think. So I try to see the upside of think. So I try to see the upside of that even at times I I if at times I do that even at times I I if at times I do that even at times I I if at times I do feel a certain body horror in the fact feel a certain body horror in the fact feel a certain body horror in the fact that I'm stuck inside of a body h with that I'm stuck inside of a body h with that I'm stuck inside of a body h with half the cells being uh microbes. half the cells being uh microbes. half the cells being uh microbes. >> Yeah. And I think you've written about >> Yeah. And I think you've written about >> Yeah. And I think you've written about the fact that there's some mental horror the fact that there's some mental horror the fact that there's some mental horror of wondering you know as somebody who of wondering you know as somebody who of wondering you know as somebody who experiences a lot of thought spirals experiences a lot of thought spirals experiences a lot of thought spirals like who I believe you put it like who's like who I believe you put it like who's like who I believe you put it like who's the captain of this ship if I can't even the captain of this ship if I can't even the captain of this ship if I can't even claim these thoughts as my own. I claim these thoughts as my own. I claim these thoughts as my own. I clearly can't control them. clearly can't control them. clearly can't control them. >> Yeah. I mean that understanding that >> Yeah. I mean that understanding that >> Yeah. I mean that understanding that that I'm not in control of my own that I'm not in control of my own that I'm not in control of my own thoughts is a hard thing to swallow for thoughts is a hard thing to swallow for thoughts is a hard thing to swallow for me. Um but of course I'm not. And and me. Um but of course I'm not. And and me. Um but of course I'm not. And and the thing about thoughts is that they're the thing about thoughts is that they're the thing about thoughts is that they're just thoughts. You know, I I OCD and just thoughts. You know, I I OCD and just thoughts. You know, I I OCD and other uh disorders like it, you know, other uh disorders like it, you know, other uh disorders like it, you know, tell you the lie that your thoughts are tell you the lie that your thoughts are tell you the lie that your thoughts are somehow incredibly powerful. That if you somehow incredibly powerful. That if you somehow incredibly powerful. That if you think uh your parents are going to die, think uh your parents are going to die, think uh your parents are going to die, they're going to die. that if you think they're going to die. that if you think they're going to die. that if you think you're poisoning your family with radon, you're poisoning your family with radon, you're poisoning your family with radon, you you you probably are, or at least you you you probably are, or at least you you you probably are, or at least you can't fully reassure yourself that you can't fully reassure yourself that you can't fully reassure yourself that you aren't. But thoughts are just you aren't. But thoughts are just you aren't. But thoughts are just thoughts. Thoughts come and go. People thoughts. Thoughts come and go. People thoughts. Thoughts come and go. People have all kinds of weird thoughts all the have all kinds of weird thoughts all the have all kinds of weird thoughts all the time, all day long. And and of course, time, all day long. And and of course, time, all day long. And and of course, the right thing to do when you have an the right thing to do when you have an the right thing to do when you have an unusual or distressing thought is I've unusual or distressing thought is I've unusual or distressing thought is I've heard therapists say that it's like uh heard therapists say that it's like uh heard therapists say that it's like uh you're standing on the side of the you're standing on the side of the you're standing on the side of the street and you're watching cars drive street and you're watching cars drive street and you're watching cars drive by. And the right thing to do is you see by. And the right thing to do is you see by. And the right thing to do is you see a weird car and you just let it drive by a weird car and you just let it drive by a weird car and you just let it drive by and you're like, "Well, that was a weird and you're like, "Well, that was a weird and you're like, "Well, that was a weird car. I bet there will be another car in car. I bet there will be another car in car. I bet there will be another car in a minute that'll be a different looking a minute that'll be a different looking a minute that'll be a different looking car." But of course, what I do is I'm car." But of course, what I do is I'm car." But of course, what I do is I'm like, "I got to get in that car and like, "I got to get in that car and like, "I got to get in that car and figure out what's going on." And that's figure out what's going on." And that's figure out what's going on." And that's the wrong that's the wrong strategy. the wrong that's the wrong strategy. the wrong that's the wrong strategy. >> Have you learned better strategies over >> Have you learned better strategies over >> Have you learned better strategies over time? Yeah, I mean definitely time? Yeah, I mean definitely time? Yeah, I mean definitely understanding that thoughts understanding that thoughts understanding that thoughts are not as powerful or as important as I are not as powerful or as important as I are not as powerful or as important as I believe them to be or as you know I'm believe them to be or as you know I'm believe them to be or as you know I'm inclined to believe them to be is is inclined to believe them to be is is inclined to believe them to be is is powerful for me. And then and then so powerful for me. And then and then so powerful for me. And then and then so understanding that intellectually is of understanding that intellectually is of understanding that intellectually is of course different than being able to course different than being able to course different than being able to fully internalize it. But understanding fully internalize it. But understanding fully internalize it. But understanding it intellectually is a gift and and one it intellectually is a gift and and one it intellectually is a gift and and one that I I take pretty seriously because I that I I take pretty seriously because I that I I take pretty seriously because I I do find that, you know, knowing that I do find that, you know, knowing that I do find that, you know, knowing that as a as a ground of being is is helpful as a as a ground of being is is helpful as a as a ground of being is is helpful just as knowing that myself is a story I just as knowing that myself is a story I just as knowing that myself is a story I tell myself is helpful because then I tell myself is helpful because then I tell myself is helpful because then I can kind of change the story if I need can kind of change the story if I need can kind of change the story if I need to. to. to. >> Do you have a story you're currently >> Do you have a story you're currently >> Do you have a story you're currently telling yourself? Is is this like an telling yourself? Is is this like an telling yourself? Is is this like an exercise in some way? exercise in some way? exercise in some way? >> Yeah, Dan, I'm just a dad from >> Yeah, Dan, I'm just a dad from >> Yeah, Dan, I'm just a dad from Indianapolis. That's the story I'm Indianapolis. That's the story I'm Indianapolis. That's the story I'm currently telling myself. [laughter] Just a husband and dad trying to make Just a husband and dad trying to make make make make his way in Indianapolis. make make make his way in Indianapolis. make make make his way in Indianapolis. Yeah. I I guess it's that's a really Yeah. I I guess it's that's a really Yeah. I I guess it's that's a really interesting question. I mean, you know, interesting question. I mean, you know, interesting question. I mean, you know, I never want to put all my identity eggs I never want to put all my identity eggs I never want to put all my identity eggs into one basket. You know, I never for a into one basket. You know, I never for a into one basket. You know, I never for a long time I thought of myself like I'm long time I thought of myself like I'm long time I thought of myself like I'm just a writer or just a just a public just a writer or just a just a public just a writer or just a just a public person. And if my value as a public person. And if my value as a public person. And if my value as a public person goes down, that means my value person goes down, that means my value person goes down, that means my value goes down. And if my value as a writer goes down. And if my value as a writer goes down. And if my value as a writer goes down or my books don't sell as goes down or my books don't sell as goes down or my books don't sell as well, that means I'm not as valuable as well, that means I'm not as valuable as well, that means I'm not as valuable as a person. And so I'm kidding when I say a person. And so I'm kidding when I say a person. And so I'm kidding when I say I just want to think of myself as a dad I just want to think of myself as a dad I just want to think of myself as a dad from Indianapolis. But at the same time, from Indianapolis. But at the same time, from Indianapolis. But at the same time, I'm not totally kidding because those I'm not totally kidding because those I'm not totally kidding because those are the most important identities to me are the most important identities to me are the most important identities to me is, you know, my identity as as a is, you know, my identity as as a is, you know, my identity as as a parent, as a spouse, as a son, as a parent, as a spouse, as a son, as a parent, as a spouse, as a son, as a brother. You know, those those core brother. You know, those those core brother. You know, those those core relationships are really where I want to relationships are really where I want to relationships are really where I want to put most of my eggs. And then the the put most of my eggs. And then the the put most of my eggs. And then the the eggs that need to go into the eggs that need to go into the eggs that need to go into the professional basket, they're important, professional basket, they're important, professional basket, they're important, but they aren't nearly as important as but they aren't nearly as important as but they aren't nearly as important as whether or not I'm, you know, taking whether or not I'm, you know, taking whether or not I'm, you know, taking care of the basics. care of the basics. care of the basics. >> I really relate to what you're saying. >> I really relate to what you're saying. >> I really relate to what you're saying. Um, you and I are broadly speaking in Um, you and I are broadly speaking in Um, you and I are broadly speaking in the same industry as I guess content the same industry as I guess content the same industry as I guess content creators or whatever you want to call creators or whatever you want to call creators or whatever you want to call it. And yet, I'm I'm embarrassed to it. And yet, I'm I'm embarrassed to it. And yet, I'm I'm embarrassed to admit, but I I'm doing it anyway, that admit, but I I'm doing it anyway, that admit, but I I'm doing it anyway, that that most of the time that most of the time that most of the time >> my anxiety centers around the stuff that >> my anxiety centers around the stuff that >> my anxiety centers around the stuff that matters less. meaning as I referenced matters less. meaning as I referenced matters less. meaning as I referenced earlier when the podcast doesn't have a earlier when the podcast doesn't have a earlier when the podcast doesn't have a good month or I put out a book and it good month or I put out a book and it good month or I put out a book and it doesn't do that well or that I'm clearly doesn't do that well or that I'm clearly doesn't do that well or that I'm clearly consciously and subconsciously putting consciously and subconsciously putting consciously and subconsciously putting my eggs in the professional basket when my eggs in the professional basket when my eggs in the professional basket when it's not the most important basket. It's it's not the most important basket. It's it's not the most important basket. It's not the most important thing, but it is not the most important thing, but it is not the most important thing, but it is the easiest to measure, right? Like the easiest to measure, right? Like the easiest to measure, right? Like nobody tells you like your your dad your nobody tells you like your your dad your nobody tells you like your your dad your dad points are like 8% down this month dad points are like 8% down this month dad points are like 8% down this month and as a result it'll probably continue and as a result it'll probably continue and as a result it'll probably continue to go 8% down next month and then pretty to go 8% down next month and then pretty to go 8% down next month and then pretty soon you'll be out of business. Nobody soon you'll be out of business. Nobody soon you'll be out of business. Nobody tells you that. The the the good and the tells you that. The the the good and the tells you that. The the the good and the terrible thing about the internet is terrible thing about the internet is terrible thing about the internet is that it's made all of this stuff very that it's made all of this stuff very that it's made all of this stuff very easy to measure and it's um and it's easy to measure and it's um and it's easy to measure and it's um and it's really easy to conflate what's easy to really easy to conflate what's easy to really easy to conflate what's easy to measure with what's important. measure with what's important. measure with what's important. >> Man, that is true. Back to this the the >> Man, that is true. Back to this the the >> Man, that is true. Back to this the the the mystery of the self. Um, I as a the mystery of the self. Um, I as a the mystery of the self. Um, I as a practicing Buddhist really see it practicing Buddhist really see it practicing Buddhist really see it through a Buddhist lens. Have you through a Buddhist lens. Have you through a Buddhist lens. Have you encountered much of the Buddhist thought encountered much of the Buddhist thought encountered much of the Buddhist thought and philosophy and practice around the and philosophy and practice around the and philosophy and practice around the self? self? self? >> No, not a lot. I mean, I know a little >> No, not a lot. I mean, I know a little >> No, not a lot. I mean, I know a little bit about non-attachment, but I don't bit about non-attachment, but I don't bit about non-attachment, but I don't know a lot about the self. So, can you know a lot about the self. So, can you know a lot about the self. So, can you can you educate me? can you educate me? can you educate me? >> You know, I I think you kind of nailed >> You know, I I think you kind of nailed >> You know, I I think you kind of nailed it to a certain extent when you said it to a certain extent when you said it to a certain extent when you said before that seeing the insubstantiality, before that seeing the insubstantiality, before that seeing the insubstantiality, the mystery of the self is good news. the mystery of the self is good news. the mystery of the self is good news. And uh because then you can you have the And uh because then you can you have the And uh because then you can you have the ability to change. Um and I think that's ability to change. Um and I think that's ability to change. Um and I think that's my in my understanding of the dharma my in my understanding of the dharma my in my understanding of the dharma which is basically just the fancy way of which is basically just the fancy way of which is basically just the fancy way of saying the teachings of the Buddha. That saying the teachings of the Buddha. That saying the teachings of the Buddha. That is the foundational insight or at least is the foundational insight or at least is the foundational insight or at least one of them. The other is what what your one of them. The other is what what your one of them. The other is what what your Liberian friends have noticed too which Liberian friends have noticed too which Liberian friends have noticed too which is that everything's changing all the is that everything's changing all the is that everything's changing all the time. And of course that that bounces time. And of course that that bounces time. And of course that that bounces right back to the self. If everything's right back to the self. If everything's right back to the self. If everything's changing all the time, how can there be changing all the time, how can there be changing all the time, how can there be a solid self? um definitionally there a solid self? um definitionally there a solid self? um definitionally there cannot be um and so that is the the cannot be um and so that is the the cannot be um and so that is the the thing to let go of. It's very hard to do thing to let go of. It's very hard to do thing to let go of. It's very hard to do but through practice you can. I'll give but through practice you can. I'll give but through practice you can. I'll give you one quick one and it came to mind uh you one quick one and it came to mind uh you one quick one and it came to mind uh when you were talking before about your when you were talking before about your when you were talking before about your intellectual grasp of the fact that intellectual grasp of the fact that intellectual grasp of the fact that thoughts are insubstantial that it it thoughts are insubstantial that it it thoughts are insubstantial that it it being merely intellectual is you know being merely intellectual is you know being merely intellectual is you know only of limited comfort. you you can I only of limited comfort. you you can I only of limited comfort. you you can I think it make it more visceral and this think it make it more visceral and this think it make it more visceral and this I'm going to steal from my longtime I'm going to steal from my longtime I'm going to steal from my longtime Buddhist teacher Joseph Goldstein which Buddhist teacher Joseph Goldstein which Buddhist teacher Joseph Goldstein which is just to ask yourself the question and is just to ask yourself the question and is just to ask yourself the question and when you notice that you're in a flurry when you notice that you're in a flurry when you notice that you're in a flurry of noxious thoughts like what is a of noxious thoughts like what is a of noxious thoughts like what is a thought thought thought >> check it out go check it out don't just >> check it out go check it out don't just >> check it out go check it out don't just rest in the knowledge that there's no rest in the knowledge that there's no rest in the knowledge that there's no substance to us like go look for it and substance to us like go look for it and substance to us like go look for it and that can produce at least in my that can produce at least in my that can produce at least in my experience some visceral understanding experience some visceral understanding experience some visceral understanding of the insubstantiality I said a lot of the insubstantiality I said a lot of the insubstantiality I said a lot there but does any of that land there but does any of that land there but does any of that land >> yeah no that really reate with me. >> yeah no that really reate with me. >> yeah no that really reate with me. >> It can be very helpful because I think a >> It can be very helpful because I think a >> It can be very helpful because I think a lot of people come to Buddhism for the lot of people come to Buddhism for the lot of people come to Buddhism for the stress relief, but the wash up on the stress relief, but the wash up on the stress relief, but the wash up on the rocky shores of this brainbreaking idea rocky shores of this brainbreaking idea rocky shores of this brainbreaking idea of the self being an illusion, but it it of the self being an illusion, but it it of the self being an illusion, but it it on this level then becomes very on this level then becomes very on this level then becomes very practical like I don't have to take my practical like I don't have to take my practical like I don't have to take my thoughts so seriously. That's that's thoughts so seriously. That's that's thoughts so seriously. That's that's liberating. liberating. liberating. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. Yeah. For sure. And that they um they Yeah. For sure. And that they um they Yeah. For sure. And that they um they pass and there will be there will be pass and there will be there will be pass and there will be there will be other thoughts behind it. other thoughts behind it. other thoughts behind it. >> Indeed. Um, all right. Let's let's talk >> Indeed. Um, all right. Let's let's talk >> Indeed. Um, all right. Let's let's talk about some of your other about some of your other about some of your other uh strategies in in in the uh strategies in in in the uh strategies in in in the aforementioned toolkit. Um, on my list aforementioned toolkit. Um, on my list aforementioned toolkit. Um, on my list here that is that is the product of here that is that is the product of here that is that is the product of doing some research. I see something uh doing some research. I see something uh doing some research. I see something uh labeled shame reduction through naming. labeled shame reduction through naming. labeled shame reduction through naming. Does that ring a bell for you? And if Does that ring a bell for you? And if Does that ring a bell for you? And if so, what does it mean? so, what does it mean? so, what does it mean? >> Sure. It uh it means I think the great >> Sure. It uh it means I think the great >> Sure. It uh it means I think the great Mr. Rogers line, anything mentionable is Mr. Rogers line, anything mentionable is Mr. Rogers line, anything mentionable is manageable and anything not mentionable manageable and anything not mentionable manageable and anything not mentionable tends to be not manageable. And so, um, tends to be not manageable. And so, um, tends to be not manageable. And so, um, for me, a lot of the challenge of for me, a lot of the challenge of for me, a lot of the challenge of writing and living in the world is writing and living in the world is writing and living in the world is finding form for the formless, finding finding form for the formless, finding finding form for the formless, finding some kind of ability to give language to some kind of ability to give language to some kind of ability to give language to the way down deep stuff that's really the way down deep stuff that's really the way down deep stuff that's really abstract. abstract. abstract. And for me, that's where shame lives. And for me, that's where shame lives. And for me, that's where shame lives. That's where embarrassment lives. And if That's where embarrassment lives. And if That's where embarrassment lives. And if I can give some if I can bring bring I can give some if I can bring bring I can give some if I can bring bring that forth into the world and and and that forth into the world and and and that forth into the world and and and allow it to see light through giving it allow it to see light through giving it allow it to see light through giving it form or giving it it some kind of form or giving it it some kind of form or giving it it some kind of structure, then it becomes manageable. structure, then it becomes manageable. structure, then it becomes manageable. >> So how does that work in a momentto >> So how does that work in a momentto >> So how does that work in a momentto moment basis? moment basis? moment basis? >> Well, I guess I can give you one >> Well, I guess I can give you one >> Well, I guess I can give you one example. Like when I was writing my book example. Like when I was writing my book example. Like when I was writing my book Turtles All the Way Down, which is about Turtles All the Way Down, which is about Turtles All the Way Down, which is about a young woman with OCD, her OCD is very a young woman with OCD, her OCD is very a young woman with OCD, her OCD is very different from mine, but you know, we different from mine, but you know, we different from mine, but you know, we both have the same disorder and we both both have the same disorder and we both both have the same disorder and we both struggle with a lot of the same stuff. I struggle with a lot of the same stuff. I struggle with a lot of the same stuff. I was trying to find some way of not just was trying to find some way of not just was trying to find some way of not just saying what it's like. It's easy to say saying what it's like. It's easy to say saying what it's like. It's easy to say what pain is like. You know, we we what pain is like. You know, we we what pain is like. You know, we we almost always use simileies when we talk almost always use simileies when we talk almost always use simileies when we talk about pain. It's like a stabbing in my about pain. It's like a stabbing in my about pain. It's like a stabbing in my neck. It's like a a hammer on my head. neck. It's like a a hammer on my head. neck. It's like a a hammer on my head. Whatever. Whatever. But it's hard to say Whatever. Whatever. But it's hard to say Whatever. Whatever. But it's hard to say what it is. It's very hard to give what it is. It's very hard to give what it is. It's very hard to give direct form for pain whether it's direct form for pain whether it's direct form for pain whether it's psychic or physical and that was sort of psychic or physical and that was sort of psychic or physical and that was sort of the challenge I set for myself with the challenge I set for myself with the challenge I set for myself with turtles all the way down and what I turtles all the way down and what I turtles all the way down and what I really wanted to do was bring forth my really wanted to do was bring forth my really wanted to do was bring forth my own shame by giving it language language own shame by giving it language language own shame by giving it language language like for instance thought spirals which like for instance thought spirals which like for instance thought spirals which you know that that idea um you know that that idea um you know that that idea um wasn't inevitable or natural like that's wasn't inevitable or natural like that's wasn't inevitable or natural like that's that's that's one way of conceiving of that's that's one way of conceiving of that's that's one way of conceiving of it there are lots of other ways is but it there are lots of other ways is but it there are lots of other ways is but language like that and then also in the language like that and then also in the language like that and then also in the novel to find find structural solutions, novel to find find structural solutions, novel to find find structural solutions, find ways that you know Asa's um find ways that you know Asa's um find ways that you know Asa's um internal voice can be loud enough in the internal voice can be loud enough in the internal voice can be loud enough in the mind of the reader that the reader can mind of the reader that the reader can mind of the reader that the reader can experience some of what she's going experience some of what she's going experience some of what she's going through so that they're not just uh through so that they're not just uh through so that they're not just uh empathizing with her. They are on some empathizing with her. They are on some empathizing with her. They are on some level experiencing what she's level experiencing what she's level experiencing what she's experiencing. I I made a note of experiencing. I I made a note of experiencing. I I made a note of anything mentionable as manageable. Um anything mentionable as manageable. Um anything mentionable as manageable. Um because it because it because it >> that Mr. Rogers that Mr. Rogers, he had >> that Mr. Rogers that Mr. Rogers, he had >> that Mr. Rogers that Mr. Rogers, he had a lot of good stuff. a lot of good stuff. a lot of good stuff. >> He did. He did. It also kind of is >> He did. He did. It also kind of is >> He did. He did. It also kind of is consent with my understanding of a consent with my understanding of a consent with my understanding of a meditation practice, which is, you know, meditation practice, which is, you know, meditation practice, which is, you know, you you sit and watch your mind either you you sit and watch your mind either you you sit and watch your mind either in formal meditation or as you're just in formal meditation or as you're just in formal meditation or as you're just walking around the world and you notice, walking around the world and you notice, walking around the world and you notice, oh, hatred's coming up or fear. And just oh, hatred's coming up or fear. And just oh, hatred's coming up or fear. And just the act of labeling it in the moment the act of labeling it in the moment the act of labeling it in the moment creates enough distance so that you're creates enough distance so that you're creates enough distance so that you're not in it. not in it. not in it. >> M yeah. >> M yeah. >> M yeah. >> I cannot tell you how many times that >> I cannot tell you how many times that >> I cannot tell you how many times that has come to my rescue. And I I can also has come to my rescue. And I I can also has come to my rescue. And I I can also not tell you how many times I have not tell you how many times I have not tell you how many times I have failed to do it and done a bunch of dumb failed to do it and done a bunch of dumb failed to do it and done a bunch of dumb [ __ ] Um [laughter] uh another thing on my list is and this uh another thing on my list is and this has kind of come up obliquely but I has kind of come up obliquely but I has kind of come up obliquely but I think it makes sense to name it think it makes sense to name it think it makes sense to name it explicitly. helping other people uh explicitly. helping other people uh explicitly. helping other people uh inter for you I believe you've found inter for you I believe you've found inter for you I believe you've found that um one way to manage your own that um one way to manage your own that um one way to manage your own psychological struggles is to you turn psychological struggles is to you turn psychological struggles is to you turn your attention outward. your attention outward. your attention outward. >> Yeah, absolutely. Um there is only so >> Yeah, absolutely. Um there is only so >> Yeah, absolutely. Um there is only so much work I can do within myself and and much work I can do within myself and and much work I can do within myself and and find fulfillment in it. I also have to find fulfillment in it. I also have to find fulfillment in it. I also have to turn out to the world and I know that's turn out to the world and I know that's turn out to the world and I know that's not true for everyone but it is for me. not true for everyone but it is for me. not true for everyone but it is for me. I need to turn out to the world and um I need to turn out to the world and um I need to turn out to the world and um act in the world as best I can on on act in the world as best I can on on act in the world as best I can on on problems. And one of the challenges of problems. And one of the challenges of problems. And one of the challenges of that for me is that you know in the that for me is that you know in the that for me is that you know in the information landscape we all share now information landscape we all share now information landscape we all share now there's a new problem every day. There's there's a new problem every day. There's there's a new problem every day. There's a new crisis turning our heads this way a new crisis turning our heads this way a new crisis turning our heads this way and that and it's it's hard. The horrors and that and it's it's hard. The horrors and that and it's it's hard. The horrors abound in every direction and and that's abound in every direction and and that's abound in every direction and and that's true. All those horrors are are real. Uh true. All those horrors are are real. Uh true. All those horrors are are real. Uh it's it's not that they aren't real. it's it's not that they aren't real. it's it's not that they aren't real. It's just that I if I feel, you know, if It's just that I if I feel, you know, if It's just that I if I feel, you know, if I'm looking in every direction at once, I'm looking in every direction at once, I'm looking in every direction at once, if I'm thinking about tuberculosis and if I'm thinking about tuberculosis and if I'm thinking about tuberculosis and malaria and uh climate change and HIV, malaria and uh climate change and HIV, malaria and uh climate change and HIV, AIDS and COVID and, you know, and and AIDS and COVID and, you know, and and AIDS and COVID and, you know, and and and and forever, I don't know what to do and and forever, I don't know what to do and and forever, I don't know what to do with myself. I get overwhelmed and I get with myself. I get overwhelmed and I get with myself. I get overwhelmed and I get paralyzed and I have complete decision paralyzed and I have complete decision paralyzed and I have complete decision paralysis and it's hard for me to even, paralysis and it's hard for me to even, paralysis and it's hard for me to even, you know, get out of bed and function. you know, get out of bed and function. you know, get out of bed and function. What I found is that taking a long-term What I found is that taking a long-term What I found is that taking a long-term view of long-term problems is really view of long-term problems is really view of long-term problems is really helpful. My brother likes to say that helpful. My brother likes to say that helpful. My brother likes to say that that bad news usually happens all at that bad news usually happens all at that bad news usually happens all at once and good news happens slowly. If we once and good news happens slowly. If we once and good news happens slowly. If we were to really report the most important were to really report the most important were to really report the most important news story every day, I would argue that news story every day, I would argue that news story every day, I would argue that the front page of the New York Times the front page of the New York Times the front page of the New York Times every single day for the last 30 years every single day for the last 30 years every single day for the last 30 years would read, "Fewer children died today would read, "Fewer children died today would read, "Fewer children died today than any day in the last 5,000 years." than any day in the last 5,000 years." than any day in the last 5,000 years." And that's been true almost every day And that's been true almost every day And that's been true almost every day for the last 30 years, right? We've for the last 30 years, right? We've for the last 30 years, right? We've reduced the number of people who die reduced the number of people who die reduced the number of people who die under the age of five from 12 million under the age of five from 12 million under the age of five from 12 million the year I graduated from college to 5 the year I graduated from college to 5 the year I graduated from college to 5 million last year. million last year. million last year. >> It's an incredible, incredible >> It's an incredible, incredible >> It's an incredible, incredible achievement. It wasn't natural. It achievement. It wasn't natural. It achievement. It wasn't natural. It wasn't normal. It wasn't ordinary. It wasn't normal. It wasn't ordinary. It wasn't normal. It wasn't ordinary. It wasn't going to happen anyway. It wasn't going to happen anyway. It wasn't going to happen anyway. It happened because hundreds of millions of happened because hundreds of millions of happened because hundreds of millions of people work around the world to make it people work around the world to make it people work around the world to make it happen. And that long-term change has happen. And that long-term change has happen. And that long-term change has happened very very slowly, infuriatingly happened very very slowly, infuriatingly happened very very slowly, infuriatingly slowly. It should be happening faster. slowly. It should be happening faster. slowly. It should be happening faster. We still lose millions of kids every We still lose millions of kids every We still lose millions of kids every year needlessly. And and so I don't want year needlessly. And and so I don't want year needlessly. And and so I don't want to pretend that like this isn't a to pretend that like this isn't a to pretend that like this isn't a crisis. It is a crisis, but it's a crisis. It is a crisis, but it's a crisis. It is a crisis, but it's a crisis that can get better when we work crisis that can get better when we work crisis that can get better when we work on it, when our when we share our on it, when our when we share our on it, when our when we share our attention to it. And whether it's attention to it. And whether it's attention to it. And whether it's maternal health or tuberculosis or maternal health or tuberculosis or maternal health or tuberculosis or climate change or or any other big climate change or or any other big climate change or or any other big problem we share, uh we can see these problem we share, uh we can see these problem we share, uh we can see these problems get better when we work on them problems get better when we work on them problems get better when we work on them together. And that outward focus and together. And that outward focus and together. And that outward focus and that long-term way of looking and a that long-term way of looking and a that long-term way of looking and a systemic way of thinking about these systemic way of thinking about these systemic way of thinking about these problems is really key for me, really problems is really key for me, really problems is really key for me, really key to my fulfillment and happiness as a key to my fulfillment and happiness as a key to my fulfillment and happiness as a person. Because the other thing is that person. Because the other thing is that person. Because the other thing is that then you're working with interesting then you're working with interesting then you're working with interesting people on interesting problems which is people on interesting problems which is people on interesting problems which is fun. It's fun. It's interesting. It's fun. It's fun. It's interesting. It's fun. It's fun. It's interesting. It's interesting to think about how to lower interesting to think about how to lower interesting to think about how to lower barriers to educational access through barriers to educational access through barriers to educational access through something like Crash Course. It's something like Crash Course. It's something like Crash Course. It's interesting to think about how to interesting to think about how to interesting to think about how to improve maternal and child health in you improve maternal and child health in you improve maternal and child health in you know deeply impoverished communities know deeply impoverished communities know deeply impoverished communities like Sierra Leone where the government like Sierra Leone where the government like Sierra Leone where the government is desperate to be working on these is desperate to be working on these is desperate to be working on these problems but just doesn't have the problems but just doesn't have the problems but just doesn't have the resources to do it. It's it's really resources to do it. It's it's really resources to do it. It's it's really interesting, fulfilling work and you interesting, fulfilling work and you interesting, fulfilling work and you know I I get to participate with know I I get to participate with know I I get to participate with thousands or tens of thousands of people thousands or tens of thousands of people thousands or tens of thousands of people on on working on those problems and it's on on working on those problems and it's on on working on those problems and it's it's pretty fun actually. it's pretty fun actually. it's pretty fun actually. >> One of my glib little lines is uh the >> One of my glib little lines is uh the >> One of my glib little lines is uh the view is so much better when you pull view is so much better when you pull view is so much better when you pull your head out of your ass. Um [laughter] your head out of your ass. Um [laughter] your head out of your ass. Um [laughter] it's I just see that over and over it's I just see that over and over it's I just see that over and over again. And you you and your brother have again. And you you and your brother have again. And you you and your brother have done a great job of really rallying your done a great job of really rallying your done a great job of really rallying your audience to and I believe these are your audience to and I believe these are your audience to and I believe these are your words, decrease the suck, but like as a words, decrease the suck, but like as a words, decrease the suck, but like as a team. team. team. >> Yeah. Yeah. You you're not going to >> Yeah. Yeah. You you're not going to >> Yeah. Yeah. You you're not going to decrease that much suck in the world by decrease that much suck in the world by decrease that much suck in the world by yourself, but you can decrease a lot of yourself, but you can decrease a lot of yourself, but you can decrease a lot of suck in the world in collaboration and suck in the world in collaboration and suck in the world in collaboration and partnership with other people. partnership with other people. partnership with other people. >> During this course of this conversation, >> During this course of this conversation, >> During this course of this conversation, we've touched on the the the bugs in we've touched on the the the bugs in we've touched on the the the bugs in human nature. like to be a little cute. human nature. like to be a little cute. human nature. like to be a little cute. Um we we have u an overabundance of bad Um we we have u an overabundance of bad Um we we have u an overabundance of bad bugs of uh tuberculosis bugs of uh tuberculosis bugs of uh tuberculosis uh because of the bugs in in human uh because of the bugs in in human uh because of the bugs in in human nature where we can be selfish and nature where we can be selfish and nature where we can be selfish and otherize people etc etc. But then otherize people etc etc. But then otherize people etc etc. But then there's also the the features in the there's also the the features in the there's also the the features in the human operating system which we you've human operating system which we you've human operating system which we you've also touched on which is also touched on which is also touched on which is well-intentioned people working together well-intentioned people working together well-intentioned people working together in collaboration have brought down um in collaboration have brought down um in collaboration have brought down um child mortality in some quite striking child mortality in some quite striking child mortality in some quite striking ways. Given all of that, like where does ways. Given all of that, like where does ways. Given all of that, like where does that leave you in terms of your POV on that leave you in terms of your POV on that leave you in terms of your POV on our species? our species? our species? >> Well, I'm broadly in favor of humans, >> Well, I'm broadly in favor of humans, >> Well, I'm broadly in favor of humans, which used to be a fairly which used to be a fairly which used to be a fairly wellestablished fact, but I think now is wellestablished fact, but I think now is wellestablished fact, but I think now is a bit counterultural. [laughter] Um, I'm a bit counterultural. [laughter] Um, I'm a bit counterultural. [laughter] Um, I'm not sure everybody agrees with me, but not sure everybody agrees with me, but not sure everybody agrees with me, but I'm I'm really quite in favor of humans. I'm I'm really quite in favor of humans. I'm I'm really quite in favor of humans. I think our capacity for wonder is I think our capacity for wonder is I think our capacity for wonder is extraordinary. I think our curiosity is extraordinary. I think our curiosity is extraordinary. I think our curiosity is extraordinary, but most of all, I think extraordinary, but most of all, I think extraordinary, but most of all, I think our capacity for collaboration is very our capacity for collaboration is very our capacity for collaboration is very very special. You know, ants are great very special. You know, ants are great very special. You know, ants are great collaborators, too, but they don't have collaborators, too, but they don't have collaborators, too, but they don't have our our brain power. And um you know, I our our brain power. And um you know, I our our brain power. And um you know, I I I think I've been thinking about this I I think I've been thinking about this I I think I've been thinking about this because I live in Indianapolis, which is because I live in Indianapolis, which is because I live in Indianapolis, which is the home of Kurt Vonagget, the great the home of Kurt Vonagget, the great the home of Kurt Vonagget, the great American novelist, one of my favorite American novelist, one of my favorite American novelist, one of my favorite writers, uh hugely influential person in writers, uh hugely influential person in writers, uh hugely influential person in my own creative and personal life. But my own creative and personal life. But my own creative and personal life. But there were aspects of Vonagget's work there were aspects of Vonagget's work there were aspects of Vonagget's work that really bothered me. Um there was that really bothered me. Um there was that really bothered me. Um there was one novel that he wrote in the in the one novel that he wrote in the in the one novel that he wrote in the in the 80s I think called Gopagos where he 80s I think called Gopagos where he 80s I think called Gopagos where he talked about when when someone would die talked about when when someone would die talked about when when someone would die in the novel he would glibly say well in the novel he would glibly say well in the novel he would glibly say well they weren't going to write Beethoven's they weren't going to write Beethoven's they weren't going to write Beethoven's Ninth Symphony anyway and it's true they Ninth Symphony anyway and it's true they Ninth Symphony anyway and it's true they weren't. Um I'm not either. You're not weren't. Um I'm not either. You're not weren't. Um I'm not either. You're not either you know um and and on that level either you know um and and on that level either you know um and and on that level you're right like most most people don't you're right like most most people don't you're right like most most people don't matter that much. They weren't going to matter that much. They weren't going to matter that much. They weren't going to write Beethoven's Ninth Symphony anyway. write Beethoven's Ninth Symphony anyway. write Beethoven's Ninth Symphony anyway. But the thing is, we only need one But the thing is, we only need one But the thing is, we only need one person to write Beethoven's ninth person to write Beethoven's ninth person to write Beethoven's ninth symphony. What we really need are people symphony. What we really need are people symphony. What we really need are people to hear it, people to listen to it, to hear it, people to listen to it, to hear it, people to listen to it, people to be transformed by it. people to be transformed by it. people to be transformed by it. >> And and that's the gift. It's not that >> And and that's the gift. It's not that >> And and that's the gift. It's not that it's some tragedy. Like imagining a it's some tragedy. Like imagining a it's some tragedy. Like imagining a world without people is some tragedy world without people is some tragedy world without people is some tragedy because um nobody will be around to because um nobody will be around to because um nobody will be around to write the next Beethoven's ninth write the next Beethoven's ninth write the next Beethoven's ninth symphony. It's a tragedy because no one symphony. It's a tragedy because no one symphony. It's a tragedy because no one will be around to hear Beethoven's ninth will be around to hear Beethoven's ninth will be around to hear Beethoven's ninth symphony. You know, trees I think symphony. You know, trees I think symphony. You know, trees I think falling in the woods will still make a falling in the woods will still make a falling in the woods will still make a sound, but Billy Holiday records won't. sound, but Billy Holiday records won't. sound, but Billy Holiday records won't. And And And I really like us. I don't think that, I really like us. I don't think that, I really like us. I don't think that, you know, I don't know that we are good you know, I don't know that we are good you know, I don't know that we are good news. Like I I I understand that we are news. Like I I I understand that we are news. Like I I I understand that we are a horror that we have committed a horror that we have committed a horror that we have committed unspeakable atrocities uh against each unspeakable atrocities uh against each unspeakable atrocities uh against each other, against other forms of life. I other, against other forms of life. I other, against other forms of life. I don't mean to sound polyianaish about don't mean to sound polyianaish about don't mean to sound polyianaish about this, but I think we can be good news this, but I think we can be good news this, but I think we can be good news for each other. I really do. for each other. I really do. for each other. I really do. >> So, I'm asking I've asked about your >> So, I'm asking I've asked about your >> So, I'm asking I've asked about your view of the species. I'm curious like view of the species. I'm curious like view of the species. I'm curious like what your view is metaphysically. Like I what your view is metaphysically. Like I what your view is metaphysically. Like I I understand in your younger years you I understand in your younger years you I understand in your younger years you spent time training to be an Episcopal spent time training to be an Episcopal spent time training to be an Episcopal minister and and also worked as a minister and and also worked as a minister and and also worked as a chaplain in um chaplain in um chaplain in um >> in a ward where ch uh children's cancer >> in a ward where ch uh children's cancer >> in a ward where ch uh children's cancer ward I believe which then I think went ward I believe which then I think went ward I believe which then I think went on to be the the inspiration for your on to be the the inspiration for your on to be the the inspiration for your huge uh novel uh the fault in our stars huge uh novel uh the fault in our stars huge uh novel uh the fault in our stars which became a movie. So, I'm I'm which became a movie. So, I'm I'm which became a movie. So, I'm I'm curious. I'd love to hear a little bit curious. I'd love to hear a little bit curious. I'd love to hear a little bit of that story, but also like what where of that story, but also like what where of that story, but also like what where are you on God these days? are you on God these days? are you on God these days? >> Yeah. So, I worked as a chaplain at a >> Yeah. So, I worked as a chaplain at a >> Yeah. So, I worked as a chaplain at a children's hospital and um did know a children's hospital and um did know a children's hospital and um did know a lot of kids who were really sick or who lot of kids who were really sick or who lot of kids who were really sick or who died not just of cancer but of of died not just of cancer but of of died not just of cancer but of of accidents of [snorts] um illnesses and accidents of [snorts] um illnesses and accidents of [snorts] um illnesses and other illnesses. other illnesses. other illnesses. And I I I was briefly in discernment as And I I I was briefly in discernment as And I I I was briefly in discernment as we say for the ministry. I'm still a we say for the ministry. I'm still a we say for the ministry. I'm still a Christian. I still am episcipalian. I Christian. I still am episcipalian. I Christian. I still am episcipalian. I still um you know work from within that still um you know work from within that still um you know work from within that religious tradition and find it helpful religious tradition and find it helpful religious tradition and find it helpful to work from within that religious to work from within that religious to work from within that religious tradition. tradition. tradition. I don't and this this drives people I don't and this this drives people I don't and this this drives people bonkers when I say it, but I don't know bonkers when I say it, but I don't know bonkers when I say it, but I don't know how else to say it. I don't I'm not how else to say it. I don't I'm not how else to say it. I don't I'm not really that interested in the question really that interested in the question really that interested in the question of whether God is really real. of whether God is really real. of whether God is really real. uh in the way that like a a table is uh in the way that like a a table is uh in the way that like a a table is really real. Actually quite like a table really real. Actually quite like a table really real. Actually quite like a table if if you know tables are constructed if if you know tables are constructed if if you know tables are constructed and and if if God is a construct or and and if if God is a construct or and and if if God is a construct or whether God is a construct or a whether God is a construct or a whether God is a construct or a derivation is not the most interesting derivation is not the most interesting derivation is not the most interesting question in the world to me. What is question in the world to me. What is question in the world to me. What is really interesting to me and I I realize really interesting to me and I I realize really interesting to me and I I realize this separates me from a lot of people this separates me from a lot of people this separates me from a lot of people in my faith tradition but but what is in my faith tradition but but what is in my faith tradition but but what is really interesting for me is what God really interesting for me is what God really interesting for me is what God wants in the world and what God wants wants in the world and what God wants wants in the world and what God wants wants from us in the world. So, I don't wants from us in the world. So, I don't wants from us in the world. So, I don't spend a ton of time thinking about I spend a ton of time thinking about I spend a ton of time thinking about I mean, I'm interested in ideas of of mean, I'm interested in ideas of of mean, I'm interested in ideas of of heaven as in a metaphysical way. Um, I'm heaven as in a metaphysical way. Um, I'm heaven as in a metaphysical way. Um, I'm interested in, you know, what what would interested in, you know, what what would interested in, you know, what what would be useful ways of of recycling be useful ways of of recycling be useful ways of of recycling consciousness or or maintaining consciousness or or maintaining consciousness or or maintaining consciousness. I I mean, I guess I think consciousness. I I mean, I guess I think consciousness. I I mean, I guess I think about that stuff sometimes, but what I'm about that stuff sometimes, but what I'm about that stuff sometimes, but what I'm most interested in is what God wants most interested in is what God wants most interested in is what God wants from the world in my religious from the world in my religious from the world in my religious tradition. And that's pretty clearly tradition. And that's pretty clearly tradition. And that's pretty clearly laid out for me in the gospels. So, um, laid out for me in the gospels. So, um, laid out for me in the gospels. So, um, you know, it's pretty clearly laid out you know, it's pretty clearly laid out you know, it's pretty clearly laid out that wherever I see the sick or the that wherever I see the sick or the that wherever I see the sick or the imprisoned or the, um, those without imprisoned or the, um, those without imprisoned or the, um, those without without, um, clothes or resources, uh, I without, um, clothes or resources, uh, I without, um, clothes or resources, uh, I see God. It's pretty clear to me that see God. It's pretty clear to me that see God. It's pretty clear to me that the last shall be first and the meek the last shall be first and the meek the last shall be first and the meek should inherit the earth. And, you know, should inherit the earth. And, you know, should inherit the earth. And, you know, it's it's it's for me, it's laid out in it's it's it's for me, it's laid out in it's it's it's for me, it's laid out in the gospels in a fairly straightforward the gospels in a fairly straightforward the gospels in a fairly straightforward way. If if you're not totally convinced way. If if you're not totally convinced way. If if you're not totally convinced that God is real, how do you know that that God is real, how do you know that that God is real, how do you know that the gospels are based on what he wants the gospels are based on what he wants the gospels are based on what he wants to see in the world? to see in the world? to see in the world? >> Oh, I don't I mean, it's definitely it's >> Oh, I don't I mean, it's definitely it's >> Oh, I don't I mean, it's definitely it's definitely a belief. It's definitely a definitely a belief. It's definitely a definitely a belief. It's definitely a belief, not a not a I I I haven't belief, not a not a I I I haven't belief, not a not a I I I haven't derived my my uh my my theological derived my my uh my my theological derived my my uh my my theological worldview the way that I've derived the worldview the way that I've derived the worldview the way that I've derived the way that you you know derive Newton's way that you you know derive Newton's way that you you know derive Newton's second law. It's definitely a belief second law. It's definitely a belief second law. It's definitely a belief system and a theological system. I guess system and a theological system. I guess system and a theological system. I guess maybe because I'm American, I don't feel maybe because I'm American, I don't feel maybe because I'm American, I don't feel like it has to extrapolate out to like it has to extrapolate out to like it has to extrapolate out to everyone. I feel like I can be quite everyone. I feel like I can be quite everyone. I feel like I can be quite individualistic about my uh my theology. individualistic about my uh my theology. individualistic about my uh my theology. >> Yeah. No, that makes complete sense. I I >> Yeah. No, that makes complete sense. I I >> Yeah. No, that makes complete sense. I I think I was just getting at like what think I was just getting at like what think I was just getting at like what you said before about God being a you said before about God being a you said before about God being a construct and it may be that our construct and it may be that our construct and it may be that our understanding of what he wants in the understanding of what he wants in the understanding of what he wants in the world is also a construct but but maybe world is also a construct but but maybe world is also a construct but but maybe a useful one because we're kind of a useful one because we're kind of a useful one because we're kind of channeling the best aspects of uh the channeling the best aspects of uh the channeling the best aspects of uh the human mind in that process. human mind in that process. human mind in that process. >> Yeah. And if you put Jesus at the center >> Yeah. And if you put Jesus at the center >> Yeah. And if you put Jesus at the center of history as Christians tend to, then of history as Christians tend to, then of history as Christians tend to, then um you know Jesus's teachings take on an um you know Jesus's teachings take on an um you know Jesus's teachings take on an outsiz outsiz outsiz uh role in your in your imagining of the uh role in your in your imagining of the uh role in your in your imagining of the moral universe. But but I do think that moral universe. But but I do think that moral universe. But but I do think that for me it it doesn't it doesn't really for me it it doesn't it doesn't really for me it it doesn't it doesn't really matter whether matter whether matter whether the the the how exactly we came to this place. Um how exactly we came to this place. Um how exactly we came to this place. Um I'm I'm happy that that to be there. I I'm I'm happy that that to be there. I I'm I'm happy that that to be there. 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Can you say a little bit more about why that is? about why that is? about why that is? >> Yeah, I mean you know I was 22 years old >> Yeah, I mean you know I was 22 years old >> Yeah, I mean you know I was 22 years old and spent 6 months watching uh people and spent 6 months watching uh people and spent 6 months watching uh people being with people on the worst days of being with people on the worst days of being with people on the worst days of their lives and I have so much respect their lives and I have so much respect their lives and I have so much respect for people who work in children's for people who work in children's for people who work in children's hospitals. so much respect for people hospitals. so much respect for people hospitals. so much respect for people who work in children's hospitals for who work in children's hospitals for who work in children's hospitals for longer than six months who who don't longer than six months who who don't longer than six months who who don't bomb out of it like I did. Uh because bomb out of it like I did. Uh because bomb out of it like I did. Uh because it's hard work. It's hard to be with it's hard work. It's hard to be with it's hard work. It's hard to be with people as they lose their kids. It's people as they lose their kids. It's people as they lose their kids. It's hard to be with kids as they lose their hard to be with kids as they lose their hard to be with kids as they lose their lives. And you know, for me, it lives. And you know, for me, it lives. And you know, for me, it challenged really everything that I challenged really everything that I challenged really everything that I thought I knew about the world. I I knew thought I knew about the world. I I knew thought I knew about the world. I I knew abstractly, of course, that life isn't abstractly, of course, that life isn't abstractly, of course, that life isn't fair and that um you know, there's both fair and that um you know, there's both fair and that um you know, there's both luck based and structure-based luck based and structure-based luck based and structure-based injustice, but it's different to see it injustice, but it's different to see it injustice, but it's different to see it up close. And I never forgot it, you up close. And I never forgot it, you up close. And I never forgot it, you know, I never got over it. I never I know, I never got over it. I never I know, I never got over it. I never I never have been able to put it behind never have been able to put it behind never have been able to put it behind me. And on some level, I don't want to me. And on some level, I don't want to me. And on some level, I don't want to put it behind me. I want to grapple with put it behind me. I want to grapple with put it behind me. I want to grapple with the world as I saw it there. I want to the world as I saw it there. I want to the world as I saw it there. I want to um grapple with the world as it really um grapple with the world as it really um grapple with the world as it really is. And that's that's the world. I mean, is. And that's that's the world. I mean, is. And that's that's the world. I mean, I remember one of my chaplency I remember one of my chaplency I remember one of my chaplency supervisors saying that it's important supervisors saying that it's important supervisors saying that it's important to remember that that it's uh natural to remember that that it's uh natural to remember that that it's uh natural and normal for children to die. That and normal for children to die. That and normal for children to die. That historically half of children died. Half historically half of children died. Half historically half of children died. Half of children died before the age of five. of children died before the age of five. of children died before the age of five. You know, most people who've been born You know, most people who've been born You know, most people who've been born in the history of the world, most most in the history of the world, most most in the history of the world, most most modern humans who've been born in the modern humans who've been born in the modern humans who've been born in the last 300,000 years never lived to see last 300,000 years never lived to see last 300,000 years never lived to see the age of 20. You know, I I I want to the age of 20. You know, I I I want to the age of 20. You know, I I I want to grapple with that world as it is. And I grapple with that world as it is. And I grapple with that world as it is. And I it makes me not want to live in a it makes me not want to live in a it makes me not want to live in a natural world. I don't want to live in a natural world. I don't want to live in a natural world. I don't want to live in a in a in in a world that's in a state of in a in in a world that's in a state of in a in in a world that's in a state of nature. I I want to live in a world nature. I I want to live in a world nature. I I want to live in a world that's shaped by by empathy and and by that's shaped by by empathy and and by that's shaped by by empathy and and by by collaboration and by hard human work by collaboration and by hard human work by collaboration and by hard human work to make life better, especially for the to make life better, especially for the to make life better, especially for the most vulnerable among us. And who is most vulnerable among us. And who is most vulnerable among us. And who is more vulnerable than a child? more vulnerable than a child? more vulnerable than a child? >> So after that experience, you stopped uh >> So after that experience, you stopped uh >> So after that experience, you stopped uh pursuing the Episcopal ministry. Did did pursuing the Episcopal ministry. Did did pursuing the Episcopal ministry. Did did that experience kind of shake your that experience kind of shake your that experience kind of shake your conviction in the existence of God? conviction in the existence of God? conviction in the existence of God? >> Oh yeah. I mean it shaped it shaped my >> Oh yeah. I mean it shaped it shaped my >> Oh yeah. I mean it shaped it shaped my conviction about everything. Um I didn't conviction about everything. Um I didn't conviction about everything. Um I didn't emerge from that with with really any um emerge from that with with really any um emerge from that with with really any um any understanding of a moral universe. any understanding of a moral universe. any understanding of a moral universe. Um I felt and and and still feel that Um I felt and and and still feel that Um I felt and and and still feel that the world either is random or behaves the world either is random or behaves the world either is random or behaves precisely as if it were. the world precisely as if it were. the world precisely as if it were. the world either is indifferent to human concerns either is indifferent to human concerns either is indifferent to human concerns or or behaves as if it were and you know or or behaves as if it were and you know or or behaves as if it were and you know I need to build a worldview that I need to build a worldview that I need to build a worldview that incorporates that and that still finds a incorporates that and that still finds a incorporates that and that still finds a way to be hopeful. way to be hopeful. way to be hopeful. >> Oh, you brought me exactly where I was >> Oh, you brought me exactly where I was >> Oh, you brought me exactly where I was thinking I was I was going to go next thinking I was I was going to go next thinking I was I was going to go next which is that that word hope which can which is that that word hope which can which is that that word hope which can be you know triggering or saccharine for be you know triggering or saccharine for be you know triggering or saccharine for folks. What what do you mean by hope? folks. What what do you mean by hope? folks. What what do you mean by hope? Because it does come up in your public Because it does come up in your public Because it does come up in your public utterances uh not infrequently. What do utterances uh not infrequently. What do utterances uh not infrequently. What do you mean by that and like how do you you mean by that and like how do you you mean by that and like how do you generate it? generate it? generate it? >> I'd say I mean two things. One is that I >> I'd say I mean two things. One is that I >> I'd say I mean two things. One is that I mean hope that that life can get better mean hope that that life can get better mean hope that that life can get better for ourselves and for each other and for for ourselves and for each other and for for ourselves and for each other and for the most vulnerable people among us. Um the most vulnerable people among us. Um the most vulnerable people among us. Um now I don't believe of course that hope now I don't believe of course that hope now I don't believe of course that hope is always rewarded but I do believe that is always rewarded but I do believe that is always rewarded but I do believe that hope is always justified. hope is always justified. hope is always justified. Um and then the second thing that I mean Um and then the second thing that I mean Um and then the second thing that I mean is a more existential hope. the idea is a more existential hope. the idea is a more existential hope. the idea that forgiveness is available to all of that forgiveness is available to all of that forgiveness is available to all of us at all times. the idea that all of us us at all times. the idea that all of us us at all times. the idea that all of us are worthy of that forgiveness. Um, and are worthy of that forgiveness. Um, and are worthy of that forgiveness. Um, and and I I I mean forgiveness from other and I I I mean forgiveness from other and I I I mean forgiveness from other people, but also forgiveness from the people, but also forgiveness from the people, but also forgiveness from the universe or however you want to universe or however you want to universe or however you want to construct it, that um, you know, nobody construct it, that um, you know, nobody construct it, that um, you know, nobody is is is past the point of of of uh is is is past the point of of of uh is is is past the point of of of uh that's that's the idea of radical hope that's that's the idea of radical hope that's that's the idea of radical hope that that uh even unto death and beyond that that uh even unto death and beyond that that uh even unto death and beyond death that there is cause for um for death that there is cause for um for death that there is cause for um for belief that that we're going to be okay belief that that we're going to be okay belief that that we're going to be okay one way or another. one way or another. one way or another. I um I um I um I am very I am both a big believer in I am very I am both a big believer in I am very I am both a big believer in hope and very suspicious of a lot of hope and very suspicious of a lot of hope and very suspicious of a lot of constructions of hope because I think constructions of hope because I think constructions of hope because I think sometimes the you know I don't want to sometimes the you know I don't want to sometimes the you know I don't want to be hopefilled sometimes you know like be hopefilled sometimes you know like be hopefilled sometimes you know like when I'm going through a hard time I when I'm going through a hard time I when I'm going through a hard time I don't want to be told like everything's don't want to be told like everything's don't want to be told like everything's going to work out well and everything going to work out well and everything going to work out well and everything isn't going to work out I'm going to die isn't going to work out I'm going to die isn't going to work out I'm going to die and everyone I love is going to die so and everyone I love is going to die so and everyone I love is going to die so hearing everything is going to work out hearing everything is going to work out hearing everything is going to work out just fine is not very helpful when just fine is not very helpful when just fine is not very helpful when you're going through a dark night of the you're going through a dark night of the you're going through a dark night of the soul when you're going through a really soul when you're going through a really soul when you're going through a really difficult time. Hearing that everything difficult time. Hearing that everything difficult time. Hearing that everything happens for a reason doesn't help me. happens for a reason doesn't help me. happens for a reason doesn't help me. Um, in fact, it frustrates me because Um, in fact, it frustrates me because Um, in fact, it frustrates me because you tell me the reason why this kid you tell me the reason why this kid you tell me the reason why this kid died. You tell me the reason why people died. You tell me the reason why people died. You tell me the reason why people are suffering. You tell me the reason, are suffering. You tell me the reason, are suffering. You tell me the reason, you know, I I I I have a hard time with you know, I I I I have a hard time with you know, I I I I have a hard time with that one personally. I know it helps a that one personally. I know it helps a that one personally. I know it helps a lot of people and I don't mean to judge lot of people and I don't mean to judge lot of people and I don't mean to judge them, but it just doesn't doesn't work them, but it just doesn't doesn't work them, but it just doesn't doesn't work for me. for me. for me. What I mean by hope is that um I want to What I mean by hope is that um I want to What I mean by hope is that um I want to find a kind of hope that can hold up to find a kind of hope that can hold up to find a kind of hope that can hold up to reality as I find it that that um that reality as I find it that that um that reality as I find it that that um that can withstand the pressures and uh can withstand the pressures and uh can withstand the pressures and uh darknesses of reality. And I do find darknesses of reality. And I do find darknesses of reality. And I do find that I find that um I find it in that I find that um I find it in that I find that um I find it in community. I find it in um I find it in community. I find it in um I find it in community. I find it in um I find it in the fact that we've reduced the number the fact that we've reduced the number the fact that we've reduced the number of children who die by 60% in the last of children who die by 60% in the last of children who die by 60% in the last 25 years. I find it all over the place. 25 years. I find it all over the place. 25 years. I find it all over the place. I find stories of hope, stories of I find stories of hope, stories of I find stories of hope, stories of people helping each other, extraordinary people helping each other, extraordinary people helping each other, extraordinary acts of generosity and sacrifice among acts of generosity and sacrifice among acts of generosity and sacrifice among humans. I think that that that's the humans. I think that that that's the humans. I think that that that's the part of our our our story that I want to part of our our our story that I want to part of our our our story that I want to lift up when I think about hope. lift up when I think about hope. lift up when I think about hope. >> Just one last question I I had for you >> Just one last question I I had for you >> Just one last question I I had for you just in just in just in in in preparing for this, something in in preparing for this, something in in preparing for this, something stuck stuck out to me. Um, you're you stuck stuck out to me. Um, you're you stuck stuck out to me. Um, you're you you were being interviewed by the New you were being interviewed by the New you were being interviewed by the New York Times recently and you talked about York Times recently and you talked about York Times recently and you talked about the importance of not losing the magic the importance of not losing the magic the importance of not losing the magic of our teenage selves. of our teenage selves. of our teenage selves. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Um, can Yeah. Can you just say a little >> Um, can Yeah. Can you just say a little >> Um, can Yeah. Can you just say a little bit more about that? bit more about that? bit more about that? >> Yeah. I mean, there's something there >> Yeah. I mean, there's something there >> Yeah. I mean, there's something there two things about being a a teenager that two things about being a a teenager that two things about being a a teenager that I find interesting. And I want to be I find interesting. And I want to be I find interesting. And I want to be clear, being a teenager was terrible. clear, being a teenager was terrible. clear, being a teenager was terrible. And so, I don't want to go back to being And so, I don't want to go back to being And so, I don't want to go back to being a teenager. I also don't want but I so I a teenager. I also don't want but I so I a teenager. I also don't want but I so I do want to lose a lot of our teenage do want to lose a lot of our teenage do want to lose a lot of our teenage selves, right? like there's a lot that selves, right? like there's a lot that selves, right? like there's a lot that that that you can uh put behind you as that that you can uh put behind you as that that you can uh put behind you as you grow and change into, you know, this you grow and change into, you know, this you grow and change into, you know, this new imagined self as we've been talking new imagined self as we've been talking new imagined self as we've been talking about. But there are two things about about. But there are two things about about. But there are two things about being a teenager that I do want to hold being a teenager that I do want to hold being a teenager that I do want to hold on to. And the first is is firsts. The on to. And the first is is firsts. The on to. And the first is is firsts. The way it the first time you fall in love, way it the first time you fall in love, way it the first time you fall in love, it's so intense. It feels not just like it's so intense. It feels not just like it's so intense. It feels not just like it's unprecedented in your own life, but it's unprecedented in your own life, but it's unprecedented in your own life, but it's like it's unprecedented in human it's like it's unprecedented in human it's like it's unprecedented in human history. M history. M history. M >> the first time you're grappling with >> the first time you're grappling with >> the first time you're grappling with grief, the first time you're asking big grief, the first time you're asking big grief, the first time you're asking big questions about meaning and suffering questions about meaning and suffering questions about meaning and suffering and what we owe each other and what we and what we owe each other and what we and what we owe each other and what we owe ourselves, like there's such a lack owe ourselves, like there's such a lack owe ourselves, like there's such a lack of irony in those pursuits. There's such of irony in those pursuits. There's such of irony in those pursuits. There's such an open and honest earnestness in them. an open and honest earnestness in them. an open and honest earnestness in them. And I I don't want to lose that. I And I I don't want to lose that. I And I I don't want to lose that. I really want to hold on to that that really want to hold on to that that really want to hold on to that that earnestness. And and I know that like earnestness. And and I know that like earnestness. And and I know that like earnestness can be cringy and it can earnestness can be cringy and it can earnestness can be cringy and it can feel a little um h you know it just h feel a little um h you know it just h feel a little um h you know it just h it's like when I was I remember when I it's like when I was I remember when I it's like when I was I remember when I had I had this dog years ago this had I had this dog years ago this had I had this dog years ago this wonderful dog Willie and and Willie wonderful dog Willie and and Willie wonderful dog Willie and and Willie would roll over and he would show us his would roll over and he would show us his would roll over and he would show us his belly and I would always think what an belly and I would always think what an belly and I would always think what an incredibly vulnerable making thing that incredibly vulnerable making thing that incredibly vulnerable making thing that is to do like that's where I could stab is to do like that's where I could stab is to do like that's where I could stab you. That's where like and yet you trust you. That's where like and yet you trust you. That's where like and yet you trust me with this. And there's something me with this. And there's something me with this. And there's something about being really earnest that that is about being really earnest that that is about being really earnest that that is a similar thing where you have to show a similar thing where you have to show a similar thing where you have to show your belly to the world and it makes you your belly to the world and it makes you your belly to the world and it makes you nervous and it can make other people nervous and it can make other people nervous and it can make other people uncomfortable too. But I think there's uncomfortable too. But I think there's uncomfortable too. But I think there's real value in it. And then the other real value in it. And then the other real value in it. And then the other thing I don't want to lose about my thing I don't want to lose about my thing I don't want to lose about my teenage self or or my teenage experience teenage self or or my teenage experience teenage self or or my teenage experience is the um the way I loved other people. is the um the way I loved other people. is the um the way I loved other people. I loved my friends in high school. I I loved my friends in high school. I I loved my friends in high school. I went to a boarding school in Alabama and went to a boarding school in Alabama and went to a boarding school in Alabama and so I spent 24 hours a day with my so I spent 24 hours a day with my so I spent 24 hours a day with my friends and with my enemies. And I I friends and with my enemies. And I I friends and with my enemies. And I I loved the people I loved with such a loved the people I loved with such a loved the people I loved with such a ferocity. Um I loved them so much. I ferocity. Um I loved them so much. I ferocity. Um I loved them so much. I would never say that I loved them, of would never say that I loved them, of would never say that I loved them, of course, but I loved them so much and I I course, but I loved them so much and I I course, but I loved them so much and I I thought they were so cool and I loved thought they were so cool and I loved thought they were so cool and I loved being with them and I loved learning being with them and I loved learning being with them and I loved learning about them and it came from a place of about them and it came from a place of about them and it came from a place of real curiosity with no judgment. And I real curiosity with no judgment. And I real curiosity with no judgment. And I want to hold on to that. I want to hold want to hold on to that. I want to hold want to hold on to that. I want to hold on to the way I loved when I was a on to the way I loved when I was a on to the way I loved when I was a teenager. picked up my 11-year-old at teenager. picked up my 11-year-old at teenager. picked up my 11-year-old at school the other day and he he he's only school the other day and he he he's only school the other day and he he he's only been this is only his second year at the been this is only his second year at the been this is only his second year at the school and u he got in the car and said school and u he got in the car and said school and u he got in the car and said I love this place so much. I love this place so much. I love this place so much. >> Oh, that's great. >> Oh, that's great. >> Oh, that's great. >> Yeah, it's amazing. >> Yeah, it's amazing. >> Yeah, it's amazing. >> Oh, that's such a great feeling as a >> Oh, that's such a great feeling as a >> Oh, that's such a great feeling as a parent, too. You're like, "Oh, parent, too. You're like, "Oh, parent, too. You're like, "Oh, >> yeah. >> yeah. >> yeah. >> I did it." >> I did it." >> I did it." >> Yes. >> Yes. >> Yes. >> At least for one moment. >> At least for one moment. >> At least for one moment. >> Yeah. Yeah. And I I you know, in >> Yeah. Yeah. And I I you know, in >> Yeah. Yeah. And I I you know, in listening to you talk about loving your listening to you talk about loving your listening to you talk about loving your friends with that ferocity in in high friends with that ferocity in in high friends with that ferocity in in high school, like I I for much of my adult school, like I I for much of my adult school, like I I for much of my adult life just got so focused on my career life just got so focused on my career life just got so focused on my career that I let my friendships lapse and kind that I let my friendships lapse and kind that I let my friendships lapse and kind of woke up to this uh uh four or five of woke up to this uh uh four or five of woke up to this uh uh four or five years ago and and has have done a lot years ago and and has have done a lot years ago and and has have done a lot I've done a lot of work to reestablish I've done a lot of work to reestablish I've done a lot of work to reestablish that. I'm going to a party tonight. Um, that. I'm going to a party tonight. Um, that. I'm going to a party tonight. Um, and getting back in touch with that has and getting back in touch with that has and getting back in touch with that has been incredibly been incredibly been incredibly moving for me. moving for me. moving for me. >> Yeah, it's so fulfilling. I I've been >> Yeah, it's so fulfilling. I I've been >> Yeah, it's so fulfilling. I I've been thinking about it. I mean, I'm so thinking about it. I mean, I'm so thinking about it. I mean, I'm so dependent upon my friends, so reliant dependent upon my friends, so reliant dependent upon my friends, so reliant upon them, but also they're relying upon upon them, but also they're relying upon upon them, but also they're relying upon me. Like, I've got this buddy. I won't I me. Like, I've got this buddy. I won't I me. Like, I've got this buddy. I won't I won't name him cuz he'd probably be won't name him cuz he'd probably be won't name him cuz he'd probably be embarrassed by this, but he can he can embarrassed by this, but he can he can embarrassed by this, but he can he can solve any problem I have. Like, you solve any problem I have. Like, you solve any problem I have. Like, you know, I have problem with the kids know, I have problem with the kids know, I have problem with the kids treehouse or something, and he'll come treehouse or something, and he'll come treehouse or something, and he'll come over and just like fix it in 5 minutes. over and just like fix it in 5 minutes. over and just like fix it in 5 minutes. And I spent a whole day trying to figure And I spent a whole day trying to figure And I spent a whole day trying to figure out how to get the ladder to work, out how to get the ladder to work, out how to get the ladder to work, right? And he can solve all my problems. right? And he can solve all my problems. right? And he can solve all my problems. And one day he called me and he was And one day he called me and he was And one day he called me and he was like, "Hey, can you go to the doctor like, "Hey, can you go to the doctor like, "Hey, can you go to the doctor with me? I just feel like I need a with me? I just feel like I need a with me? I just feel like I need a patient advocate and I feel like you'd patient advocate and I feel like you'd patient advocate and I feel like you'd be a good one." And I was like, "I am a be a good one." And I was like, "I am a be a good one." And I was like, "I am a great patient advocate. I will go to the great patient advocate. I will go to the great patient advocate. I will go to the doctor with you and you will be duly doctor with you and you will be duly doctor with you and you will be duly astonished by my brilliance as a patient astonished by my brilliance as a patient astonished by my brilliance as a patient advocate." Like there is something that advocate." Like there is something that advocate." Like there is something that I can give you back. And so, you know, I can give you back. And so, you know, I can give you back. And so, you know, there is uh there's a lot of joy in that there is uh there's a lot of joy in that there is uh there's a lot of joy in that for me, not just in a lot of joy in the for me, not just in a lot of joy in the for me, not just in a lot of joy in the the cooperation and collaboration of the cooperation and collaboration of the cooperation and collaboration of friendship. friendship. friendship. >> Yes. Yeah. I have a friend who's um >> Yes. Yeah. I have a friend who's um >> Yes. Yeah. I have a friend who's um everybody calls him Doug can fix it. everybody calls him Doug can fix it. everybody calls him Doug can fix it. >> Yeah. Very similar friend. >> Yeah. Very similar friend. >> Yeah. Very similar friend. >> What else? What's what's on your mind >> What else? What's what's on your mind >> What else? What's what's on your mind these days? What else is on your mind these days? What else is on your mind these days? What else is on your mind that we haven't covered? What are you that we haven't covered? What are you that we haven't covered? What are you working on? What are you interested in? working on? What are you interested in? working on? What are you interested in? >> I'm writing a new novel. I'm writing a >> I'm writing a new novel. I'm writing a >> I'm writing a new novel. I'm writing a novel about two kids in a movie. Um, I'm novel about two kids in a movie. Um, I'm novel about two kids in a movie. Um, I'm interested in Hollywood, but but I'm interested in Hollywood, but but I'm interested in Hollywood, but but I'm interested in Hollywood as a lens into interested in Hollywood as a lens into interested in Hollywood as a lens into the world that we all live in now, where the world that we all live in now, where the world that we all live in now, where we're all sort of commodifying aspects we're all sort of commodifying aspects we're all sort of commodifying aspects of ourselves and packaging them up and of ourselves and packaging them up and of ourselves and packaging them up and then selling them for free to Instagram then selling them for free to Instagram then selling them for free to Instagram audiences and Tik Tok and podcast audiences and Tik Tok and podcast audiences and Tik Tok and podcast audiences and what that means, what we audiences and what that means, what we audiences and what that means, what we lose in that process, what we gain from lose in that process, what we gain from lose in that process, what we gain from it, whether that exchange is is valuable it, whether that exchange is is valuable it, whether that exchange is is valuable or or whether the um most of the value or or whether the um most of the value or or whether the um most of the value ends up getting captured by by ends up getting captured by by ends up getting captured by by for-profit companies. for-profit companies. for-profit companies. So, I've been writing that novel. I So, I've been writing that novel. I So, I've been writing that novel. I mean, I've really been writing it since mean, I've really been writing it since mean, I've really been writing it since like 2018, but I've been been very like 2018, but I've been been very like 2018, but I've been been very focused on it for the last couple years, focused on it for the last couple years, focused on it for the last couple years, and that's been really fun. And then I'm and that's been really fun. And then I'm and that's been really fun. And then I'm just trying to think a lot about the the just trying to think a lot about the the just trying to think a lot about the the world, um, the world around me. I'm world, um, the world around me. I'm world, um, the world around me. I'm trying to get outside of myself and, uh, trying to get outside of myself and, uh, trying to get outside of myself and, uh, literally touch grass. Uh, you know, get literally touch grass. Uh, you know, get literally touch grass. Uh, you know, get get off the internet a little bit and get off the internet a little bit and get off the internet a little bit and and go for walks. And I live near the and go for walks. And I live near the and go for walks. And I live near the White River here in Indianapolis, which White River here in Indianapolis, which White River here in Indianapolis, which is to me anyway the most the most is to me anyway the most the most is to me anyway the most the most beautiful river in the world. And just beautiful river in the world. And just beautiful river in the world. And just being able to walk along the White River being able to walk along the White River being able to walk along the White River and uh be alone with my thoughts and and uh be alone with my thoughts and and uh be alone with my thoughts and know that those thoughts aren't quite as know that those thoughts aren't quite as know that those thoughts aren't quite as powerful as I once believed they were is powerful as I once believed they were is powerful as I once believed they were is a nice uh just a nice way to go about a nice uh just a nice way to go about a nice uh just a nice way to go about being alive. being alive. being alive. >> You have a Leslie nope level Indiana >> You have a Leslie nope level Indiana >> You have a Leslie nope level Indiana patriotism, don't you? patriotism, don't you? patriotism, don't you? >> I do. I am a big uh big Well, we have >> I do. I am a big uh big Well, we have >> I do. I am a big uh big Well, we have our problems, Dan. I I don't wish to our problems, Dan. I I don't wish to our problems, Dan. I I don't wish to [laughter] [laughter] [laughter] I don't I don't wish to minimize the I don't I don't wish to minimize the I don't I don't wish to minimize the extent to which Indiana has its extent to which Indiana has its extent to which Indiana has its problems, but I really do love problems, but I really do love problems, but I really do love Indianapolis. I really love this town Indianapolis. I really love this town Indianapolis. I really love this town and I I love the people in it and I I and I I love the people in it and I I and I I love the people in it and I I I'm grateful to the people who stay even I'm grateful to the people who stay even I'm grateful to the people who stay even when it's difficult sometimes to stay. when it's difficult sometimes to stay. when it's difficult sometimes to stay. Um I feel a lot a deep deep connection Um I feel a lot a deep deep connection Um I feel a lot a deep deep connection to this place. I'm not a native. I I to this place. I'm not a native. I I to this place. I'm not a native. I I moved here in 2007 for my wife's job. moved here in 2007 for my wife's job. moved here in 2007 for my wife's job. Very much a trailing spouse and and Very much a trailing spouse and and Very much a trailing spouse and and Sarah got a job here and so we just Sarah got a job here and so we just Sarah got a job here and so we just moved here. But I love it. I really do. moved here. But I love it. I really do. moved here. But I love it. I really do. And um yeah, I wouldn't want to be And um yeah, I wouldn't want to be And um yeah, I wouldn't want to be anywhere else. anywhere else. anywhere else. >> The this novel you're writing, is is it >> The this novel you're writing, is is it >> The this novel you're writing, is is it at all based in any kind of ambivalence at all based in any kind of ambivalence at all based in any kind of ambivalence you have about being such a prominent you have about being such a prominent you have about being such a prominent player on the internet yourself? player on the internet yourself? player on the internet yourself? >> For sure. Yeah. I mean, there's no >> For sure. Yeah. I mean, there's no >> For sure. Yeah. I mean, there's no separating myself from the separating myself from the separating myself from the there there's no getting around the the there there's no getting around the the there there's no getting around the the complex feelings I have about my own complex feelings I have about my own complex feelings I have about my own participation in the social internet. I participation in the social internet. I participation in the social internet. I feel I have complex feelings about it feel I have complex feelings about it feel I have complex feelings about it because I I feel like the social because I I feel like the social because I I feel like the social internet is not always a positive force internet is not always a positive force internet is not always a positive force in people's lives. Like I want my my in people's lives. Like I want my my in people's lives. Like I want my my participation in it to be a positive participation in it to be a positive participation in it to be a positive force in people's lives, but I don't force in people's lives, but I don't force in people's lives, but I don't know that it is a positive force in the know that it is a positive force in the know that it is a positive force in the social order. In fact, I think it's been social order. In fact, I think it's been social order. In fact, I think it's been pretty destructive in a lot of ways. and pretty destructive in a lot of ways. and pretty destructive in a lot of ways. and I don't see it getting better. Um, but I don't see it getting better. Um, but I don't see it getting better. Um, but also there's an ambivalence about what also there's an ambivalence about what also there's an ambivalence about what I've what I've given up, you know, what I've what I've given up, you know, what I've what I've given up, you know, what I've given up in in the process of I've given up in in the process of I've given up in in the process of talking about my mental health, talking talking about my mental health, talking talking about my mental health, talking about other aspects of my private life. about other aspects of my private life. about other aspects of my private life. Uh, you do, you know, when you when you Uh, you do, you know, when you when you Uh, you do, you know, when you when you share something, you lose it. It isn't share something, you lose it. It isn't share something, you lose it. It isn't yours anymore. yours anymore. yours anymore. >> And there are blessings in that, of >> And there are blessings in that, of >> And there are blessings in that, of course. You know, I mean, there are are course. You know, I mean, there are are course. You know, I mean, there are are tremendous blessings. I I know that so tremendous blessings. I I know that so tremendous blessings. I I know that so many people have reached out to me, many people have reached out to me, many people have reached out to me, especially after reading Turtles All the especially after reading Turtles All the especially after reading Turtles All the Way Down, and told me how much it meant Way Down, and told me how much it meant Way Down, and told me how much it meant to them and that they could relate to it to them and that they could relate to it to them and that they could relate to it and it helped them to feel less alone or and it helped them to feel less alone or and it helped them to feel less alone or help them to understand somebody in help them to understand somebody in help them to understand somebody in their lives who lives with mental health their lives who lives with mental health their lives who lives with mental health problems. And and that's a gift. I mean, problems. And and that's a gift. I mean, problems. And and that's a gift. I mean, a huge gift. And and yet at the same a huge gift. And and yet at the same a huge gift. And and yet at the same time, it's hard to get around the fact time, it's hard to get around the fact time, it's hard to get around the fact that I've I've lost something in that that I've I've lost something in that that I've I've lost something in that process. And so I do have ambivalent process. And so I do have ambivalent process. And so I do have ambivalent feelings about it, but but true feelings about it, but but true feelings about it, but but true ambivalence where, you know, I I ambivalence where, you know, I I ambivalence where, you know, I I understand the upsides and the downsides understand the upsides and the downsides understand the upsides and the downsides and I I don't know where I land on it. and I I don't know where I land on it. and I I don't know where I land on it. Some part of you thinks that maybe you Some part of you thinks that maybe you Some part of you thinks that maybe you would be better off if your personal would be better off if your personal would be better off if your personal struggles stayed personal. struggles stayed personal. struggles stayed personal. >> Parts of me would be better off for >> Parts of me would be better off for >> Parts of me would be better off for sure, sure, sure, >> but >> but >> but at the same time, and a lot of my at the same time, and a lot of my at the same time, and a lot of my personal struggles are personal. I mean, personal struggles are personal. I mean, personal struggles are personal. I mean, is the other thing, right? Like there's is the other thing, right? Like there's is the other thing, right? Like there's a lot I don't share. And then I think a lot I don't share. And then I think a lot I don't share. And then I think well if I shared some of that it might well if I shared some of that it might well if I shared some of that it might be helpful to people in the same way be helpful to people in the same way be helpful to people in the same way it's been helpful to people as I shared it's been helpful to people as I shared it's been helpful to people as I shared um you know my my OCD or depression um you know my my OCD or depression um you know my my OCD or depression experiences. experiences. experiences. Problem with it is that you know to what Problem with it is that you know to what Problem with it is that you know to what extent do you have an obligation to the extent do you have an obligation to the extent do you have an obligation to the public and to what extent do you have an public and to what extent do you have an public and to what extent do you have an obligation to yourself? And I don't have obligation to yourself? And I don't have obligation to yourself? And I don't have an easy answer for that. I definitely do an easy answer for that. I definitely do an easy answer for that. I definitely do feel like I have an obligation to the feel like I have an obligation to the feel like I have an obligation to the public but I I think I might have a public but I I think I might have a public but I I think I might have a bigger obligation to myself. We have all bigger obligation to myself. We have all bigger obligation to myself. We have all benefited from your generosity in this benefited from your generosity in this benefited from your generosity in this regard. Anything else that you were regard. Anything else that you were regard. Anything else that you were hoping that we would get to that we hoping that we would get to that we hoping that we would get to that we haven't managed to get to? haven't managed to get to? haven't managed to get to? >> No, this has been such a great >> No, this has been such a great >> No, this has been such a great wide-ranging conversation. What a wide-ranging conversation. What a wide-ranging conversation. What a thrill. thrill. thrill. >> It's a huge pleasure to have you on. >> It's a huge pleasure to have you on. >> It's a huge pleasure to have you on. This is an unfair question I'm going to This is an unfair question I'm going to This is an unfair question I'm going to ask you now, which is because of course ask you now, which is because of course ask you now, which is because of course you're going to have to say yes, but uh you're going to have to say yes, but uh you're going to have to say yes, but uh would you come back on when your novel would you come back on when your novel would you come back on when your novel comes out? comes out? comes out? >> I'd love to. >> I'd love to. >> I'd love to. >> I could have scripted that answer. Um >> I could have scripted that answer. Um >> I could have scripted that answer. Um [laughter] [laughter] [laughter] >> I would I would though. I'm not just >> I would I would though. I'm not just >> I would I would though. I'm not just saying it. saying it. saying it. >> No, I believe you. I'm just messing with >> No, I believe you. I'm just messing with >> No, I believe you. I'm just messing with you. Um, John, thank you very much. you. Um, John, thank you very much. you. Um, John, thank you very much. Really appreciate it. It's a pleasure to Really appreciate it. It's a pleasure to Really appreciate it. It's a pleasure to meet you. meet you. meet you. >> No, it's been such a pleasure to talk >> No, it's been such a pleasure to talk >> No, it's been such a pleasure to talk with you. [music]