The Miracle Drug Silicon Valley Doesn’t Want to Talk About | Kara Swisher

Key Takeaway

The best longevity interventions aren't expensive gadgets or unproven supplements—they're fundamentals most people ignore. A good annual physical with blood tests beats expensive full-body scans. Regular exercise, adequate sleep, and maintaining social connections have far more scientific backing than peptides mixed in China or hyperbaric chambers. Stop chasing Silicon Valley's latest biohack and start with what actually works: the basics done consistently.

Episode Overview

Tech journalist Kara Swisher discusses her new HBO docuseries on longevity, exposing the narcissistic biohacking culture of Silicon Valley while examining what actually extends healthy life. Drawing on her personal experience with her father's early death and her own stroke, she critiques expensive, unproven interventions while highlighting promising innovations.

Full Transcript

Transcript of The Miracle Drug Silicon Valley Doesn’t Want to Talk About | Kara Swisher from 10% Happier. Auto-generated from episode audio; may contain minor errors.

Hey everybody, welcome to the 10% Happier podcast. I'm your host Dan Harris. Today we're going to talk to the legendary legendary legendary tech journalist Kara Swisher about the misleading and often very expensive longevity [ __ ] that we all encounter online and elsewhere. Kara Swisher is not only going to debunk some of this stuff, but she's also going to talk about what she has found in her research actually works to live a longer and healthier life. Some of the things she'll talk about that actually work, you will have heard of, but she will also reveal some really interesting technological innovations that are coming down the pike at us that could have far-reaching and really awesome effects on the species.

Many of you will know Kara Swisher. She is, as I said, a legendary tech journalist. She's been around for a minute. She is the co-host of the Pivot podcast. She co-hosts that alongside Scott Galloway, who's been on the show a couple times. She has a solo podcast that's called On with Kara Swisher. But most relevant for this podcast, she is the star and host of a new docu-series on HBO Max that just dropped that's called Kara Swisher wants to live forever. So, we'll talk to Kara Swisher right after this quick break.

A few things before we hear from our sponsors. We've got this awesome new series launching soon on my new-ish meditation app, 10% with Dan Harris. Many people ask me, "How do I get started in Buddhism? How do I learn more about it? How do I go deeper?" So, we are now going to provide a solution. Every week this summer for 8 weeks, every Sunday, the great Buddhist teacher Sharon Salzberg is going to host a live session session session every Sunday at 4:00 starting on July 12th at 4:00 p.m.

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We'll be right back after this. Quick word from Eight Sleep. As you know, Kara Swisher just made a documentary about longevity, which means she spent an extraordinary amount of time talking to people who study what it takes to extend a healthy life. And what you find pretty consistently is one of the most important levers to pull is sleep. It's not the flashiest intervention, but it's so important. And so my question to you is are you sleeping well or not? Eight Sleep, one of our sponsors today, makes a product called the Pod, which my family and I use.

It's a cover that goes on top of your existing mattress. It heats and cools each side of the bed independently and automatically anywhere from 55 to 110°. 110°. 110°. Here is the actual science behind it. Your core body temperature has to drop to enter deep sleep. That's not a claim from Eight Sleep. That's the basic physiology. The Pod helps that happen. It also tracks your heart rate, your HRV, breathing, and sleep stages all without having to wear something like a ring or a watch. Eight Sleep says the Pod is built on over a billion hours of sleep data.

Their own clinical studies suggest users can get up to 34% more deep sleep and fall asleep up to 44% faster. Individual results vary. A quick legal note here, the Pod is not a medical device and should not be used as a substitute for professional medical advice. As I mentioned, my family and I really enjoy the Pod. It's super comfortable and it's got this really elegant read out on an app that goes on your phone that tells you how you slept the night before. It's really nice to have the bed cool you down and then you can set it so that it will warm you back up in the morning.

Also, if like me, you snore, the Pod can automatically raise up your head, which changes how you breathe and therefore whether you snore. So, lots of amazing features on this product. You can use the code Dan Harris at $350 off the Pod 5. There's a 30-day trial if you don't love it. Kara Swisher, welcome to the show. Thank you. Thank you for coming to my home here at Vox Media. I'm happy to For you, I'm happy to drive. drive. drive. Thank you so much for doing that.

I appreciate it. appreciate it. appreciate it. Total pleasure. Congratulations on the new show. new show. new show. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. When I first heard about it, I was like, "Huh, I didn't think of you as a wellness person." wellness person." wellness person." Well, but then I learned about your backstory. backstory. backstory. That's right. That's right. That's right. Are you comfortable talking about your dad? dad? dad? Absolutely. That whole That whole show begins at my dad's grave, so I have to be, I guess.

And it ends with my brother talking about my dad. What's the story there for those who don't know? don't know? don't know? So, my dad died when I was five of a cerebral hemorrhage. He was 34 years old and he just gotten out of the Navy and he had he had not a hardscrabble life, but he had he went in the Navy because he couldn't pay for college and or medical school. And so, he just gotten out, had three kids, he got his first big job and then he died, just like that.

And there's a great book called The Loss That Is Forever that I always loved and it was it's about how if if you have a parent that dies at a young age, the trauma alone is hard, right? As if half your friends died because it's your parent, and he was a very active parent. It changed my life in both I wouldn't say good ways, but helpful ways in terms of coping with anything cuz my brothers and I are very highly functional. And so I was always sort of aware of death in the background because when you have someone who dies with someone close that dies when you're a young age, you are aware of death from the very beginning.

And it really helps inform your life, meaning it makes you happier in a weird way because you aren't scared of anything. You know that trauma could happen in any second or disaster. And and you've gotten through it. And so I was very functional. And my brothers are really functional. And which is a weird term, but it's true. We're very like we go right through. We're really nothing ever drags us down. And I And it so it always stuck with me about thinking about death all the time, but not in obsessive Wednesday Adam kind of way.

Like not that kind of thing. But it was more like okay, I'm going to die someday, and therefore I'm going to do this, and therefore I'm going to do that, and therefore I'm not going to wallow in this. And and so I was really interested in it. And then when I got to Silicon Valley, I was discovering tech just the way I'd covered tech. I was a really good tech reporter. Did a lot of interviews. But one of the things that kept coming back with these guys was this longevity thing.

But it wasn't just longevity. It wasn't just being healthier or, you know, collapsing lifespan and healthspan, which you you're aware of that that that, which is a pretty good concept. But it was like, what can we do to hack the body as if it was a computer or a robot or something? And I found it narcissistic. I found it not interested in humanity. I thought they were doing enormous damage to the psyche of America especially, but the world at large. But all they wanted to do was keep their meat sack going.

And for what? And so I decided to combine my two interests in death and awareness of death. And then I want to look at look at look at at the same time the charlatanism of social media around health and wellness and then and then and then um some of the really big breakthroughs that are actually happening that will help us all. So, it's kind of a grab bag. bag. bag. I have a million questions about the grab bag and all of the things you learned, but just staying on a biographical tip for a second, I think your interest was spurred not just by losing your father so young, but also you had a health scare.

I did. I left that one out. Oops. I had a stroke uh when I was in my I think 49 48 49. And I was doing an event in China with Walt Mossberg. I you had a ran a big tech conference, very famous. It was our first international one and we were doing it in Hong Kong. And I was flying there and I got to Hong Kong and I had a headache and I had migraines. I was you know, I had migraines. I just did. And I get to the hotel room, I go to sleep.

I still have this headache and I wake up and I start typing a story about Yahoo. They did something else they [ __ ] up something and I was like, oh these fuckups. And I said out loud, "Another [ __ ] from Yahoo." And it came out and I was like, "That's weird." You know, it was weird. And I go to eat a strawberry cuz I had ordered room service and it fell out of my mouth and I was like, "This is strange. What's happening?" And I felt tingling tingling in my hand.

And I couldn't speak. And so I I went into the bathroom. I'll never forget this and I start doing the Oscar Mayer Bologna song. I don't know why. This is like if I had died right there that would have been my last moment of singing the but it's a good song. My my Bologna has a first name it's O S C E A R. And it was like, I I it it it it was complete aphasia essentially and so I was like, "What do I do?" And so I I texted my brother cuz I couldn't talk and I texted Walt Mossberg who was also in Hong Kong at the time.

My brother's a doctor. doctor. doctor. And then I got in the shower and went up to breakfast. Like it was like, "This is weird." kind of thing. And by the time I got to breakfast it was cleared up. I was able to talk. I felt like I was like when you get your teeth filled when you have that I had I had had have that I had I had had And but it was mostly resolved, essentially. And my brother, the time difference was so that my brother was asleep or whatever, I just couldn't get back to me.

And then he did and he's like, "You're having a stroke, Cara. Get to the hospital." I was like, "What are you talking about? I'm fine." Like, I totally insulted him as a doctor. He was, "Just do me the favor, go and have an MRI, please. Just as for me to make me feel better." And I said, "Fine." And I go to the hospital in Hong Kong, China Chinese hospital, and and and they were like, "You're having a stroke." stroke." stroke." So, So, So, but I was fine.

I it was. They gave me medication right away and and it turned out I had a hole in my heart that the blood clot went through. And it's been cured? It's cured Well, cured, what is cured? I have a thing called thick blood, F F5 F something or other. Essentially, Mediterranean blood. It's That's what That's the way they refer to it sometimes. sometimes. sometimes. Um and I had a hole in my heart and many just recently I had it I had a plug put in. But because I didn't want it at the time, it was open-heart surgery.

And I thought, "I don't think so." Hm. Hm. Hm. Cuz that's that has its own Like, why would I have open-heart surgery? Until a doctor said, "You know, little bits of blood are going through the hole into your brain, you're going to be demented, you know, at I don't know, 60 Not 60s, but in you you could have dementia because of it." And I'm like, "I feel like I'm going to fix that." And then now it's was 20 minutes a 20-minute surgery. So, that's the psychological backdrop for this new show.

Death death death. Death everywhere. Yes, death or near death. death. death. Mortality. Mortality. Mortality. Yes, mortality. So, I was thinking we could kind of divide this into two buckets. The first bucket is the [ __ ] Like, I'd be curious like, yes. And then I want to get to what what works. Well, then maybe let's start the [ __ ] conversation by talking about Brian Johnson. Brian Johnson. Brian Johnson. Oh, yes. Oh, yes. Oh, yes. Um who who is he? by the way. Yeah, well, that's what's interesting um to me.

What Who is Brian Johnson for those who don't know? Well, it was interesting. He was a guy who had a tech company and I actually wrote about it when he sold it. He sold it for $800 million or something like that. It was a payments company and he came to my conference actually, one of my last conferences. I did these little people showed off new technology. So, I gave them a spotlight. It was called spotlight. And he showed off a lot of this brain research he had been doing after he sold his company cuz he had a lot of money and free time.

And he got he had a depression problem and so he or he was depressed for many years and he was talking about the uses of the human brain and different things and psychedelics. I found it a very interesting interesting interesting area for him to explore and so I had him up on stage and it was fascinating. I remember thinking this is really promising and this is really interesting that he's talking about how to deal with trauma through a variety of new technologies and innovations. And then he shows up a couple years later looking like this.

Like he looks as he says like a [ __ ] Patrick Bateman Bateman Bateman killer, right? You know, he he he himself understands the problem. And he had gotten very much into making himself a one-man experiment for longevity. And a lot of it is interesting. I mean, olive oil, who can argue kind of thing. But he measured everything and he would to me was the absolute version of Silicon Valley I could not stand. This idea that you could measuring yourself in such a narcissistic way is is going to help all of humanity.

Like I am here as the great thing and it has god-like tendencies. It has and then he had this don't die thing which he was being very cute about. I know, I'm not talking about living forever. I just don't die. And I'm like, okay. okay. okay. And a whole show on Netflix that he He did. He did. And and it's interesting, but he became kind of a joke when he did the the blood trading with his the plasma transfer between his son, his father and himself.

Um and again, I don't mind people stunting it on the longevity stuff, but he he he it was almost cult-like the way he did it. And of course, he records his erections. He records his sleep. Now, lately he's been tweeting about every time he has sex with his girlfriend who's now into this and now she's talking about her numbers. The whole thing is very strange. I find it very strange and vaguely sad. But I thought it was interesting because of it's a mentality taken to the extreme of Silicon Valley.

Silicon Valley. Silicon Valley. Which is everything is hackable. And so I think your point, and we'll get to this later, is that it's it's fine to think about being as healthy healthy healthy Yes. Yes. Yes. as for as long as possible. innovations. innovations. innovations. Right. Right. Right. Yeah, necessary. Yeah, necessary. Yeah, necessary. but if it's fueled by narcissism narcissism narcissism Right, it's an experiment of one. That's what I said to him. And I was quite clear with him and actually very nicely he wrote and I said, "Well, that was tough but you were fair." And I think that's what I was I wanted to hear him because he had become such a circus act that everyone could easily make blood guy, you know?

And I'm like, "No, there's something very complex going on here." And some of his again, some of his advice, creatine, absolutely. Interesting, really interesting promising science. And some of it like stem cells that he inserts or he he liked What was the thing he he was into? Uh rapamycin? Uh rapamycin? Uh rapamycin? And then he stopped cuz it didn't work. And like but he had all these people using it and they found it very dangerous cuz he was sort of he's not a doctor, he's not an expert, it's an experiment of one, and he's giving all this advice and influencing people.

And again, it was sort of writ large all the social influencers that are full of nonsense that drove me crazy. And it sometimes is just costly. Sometimes it's bad information and making you not trust your doctors, which I think is very deleterious to our society. And some of it is just just crazy. Just some of it is just nuts. Some of his stuff. And I don't I don't know what measuring his erections is going to do for the rest of us. And if it you know, if it cured cancer I'm I'm good at it.

Sometimes I think he's trolling people in that regard, but whatever. I just it's just weird that you spend your whole life measuring it. You know, time slips away while you measure yourself constantly. And that to me was me was me was the sad part is his, you know, and he lives in this he like he has a house that's pulled back from the sun because certain sun rays are bad. I was like, but the sun is so nice. Or he eats in this way that's really joyless.

You know, talk about lack of happiness. It's just it's joyless. And it's, you know, I don't think it adds maybe an hour or two to his life, maybe. But there's no proof that it adds any time to his life. I'm going to invoke a name a controversial name because the story is good. This is not in any way an endorsement of um who I'm about to bring up, but Peter Attia who got uh and so justifiably in quite a bit of trouble for his text Idiotic Epstein quotes.

with Epstein um uh but uh but uh but Speaking of [ __ ] having no carbs. E- Exactly. Right. Right. What an [ __ ] Anyway, so Attia, Dr. Peter Attia um he um he who's written a very successful book about longevity. At one point he's in the middle of a kind of very similar uh move of just quantifying everything, obsessed with living forever. And the great Esther Perel who is his um therapist at this period of time says what she says to him, "Why do you want to live forever if you're so miserable?" Correct.

That Esther puts her finger on it. And that was my thing. I It was weird because one of the things when I was doing it I I ran into Zeke Emanuel who I love, who's a cancer researcher and everything. And brother of Ari and Rahm um and just this remarkable family actually. And um we were driving back from from from something we did in Philadelphia. And he goes, "I want to write a book about longevity." Cuz I was telling him about what I was working on.

And he goes, "I'm I should write one." And he did. He actually got it out. He wrote Eat Your Eat Your Ice Cream, I think Eat Your Ice Cream, I think it was. it was. it was. And um I I go, "Well, what's the book's title?" And he said, "Peter Attia is a schmuck." schmuck." schmuck." That was the name of the book. And I was like, "That is a fantastic title." Cuz his he was making that point. Like and he also thought some of Peter's science was not on point, right?

It's always selling something. It's a supplement. It's selling this, selling that. By the way, some supplements are okay. Like that's the other thing. I'm not going to go full hog any other way, but a lot of it is just a grift by a lot of people. And in Peter Attia's case, I think that book that is Outlive, right? Outlive. Some of it's okay information. It's just the obsession and he sort of plays to a male demo vein male demographic. And then he does all the concierge medicine, which is how he got mobbed up with Jeffrey Epstein, right?

Right. Right. Right. And the whole thing is so sad. I don't know what else to say. I find it sad. Now, apparently he is a schmuck, as it turns out, from those Epstein notes. They were not a good look, at the very least. least. least. is the word I would think is a schmuck. Schmuck's a fair word. This dietitian friend of mine, sorry, I had like my own little mini stroke there. Her name is Evelyn Tribole, and she talks about this biohacking mentality that men have.

Women have it, too, but it's I think it's disproportionately it's disproportionately it's disproportionately to make a point. And women have talk about eating in a way that's somewhat troubling. It's an eating disorder. When men have it, it's body hacking. That's her That is exactly her point. It's This is a body dysmorphism dressed up as science. And I [clears throat] think it's really true. And I have to say, there have been periods in my own life where I've fallen into that. into that. into that. Of course.

It's like dieting. Oh, if this only this grapefruit diet would work. And then you're always hoping for a solution, right? And so it would to me it takes advantage of people's natural inclination to want to better themselves or look better or yeah, feel younger or whatever, cuz the society is is an onslaught of onslaught of onslaught of you're too old, fix your face, you know? And you know, but men do it and it's so like So I was at innumerable dinners in Silicon Valley. It started to happen after they got money and they had a little more time.

They started to look at their very unattractive bodies, I guess. And and they're attracting people cuz they're rich. One guy was like this one really hot woman came up to him after he went public and he goes, "Do you think she likes me?" I'm sure it's your face. And he's like, "Fuck you." I was like, "It's your wallet, my friend." That's which is fine. But, one of the things like the early the Google guys used to do all manner of tests like was Larry Page wore a pollution monitor and was telling me all about it.

I was like, "Well, how's that going to actually help anybody or you to know that it's there?" Well, I'm aware of it. I'm like, "And what's the next step?" And so, the first they started doing these full body scans. That's where it began. Like and then everything about themselves, and most of which was pointless data. And some of it isn't. Again, it's it's always a mixed bag with this stuff. Um and then they started the fasting stuff. That went on for quite a long time. Soylent, if you recall.

That was another idea to cover those guys. Um and then it was intermittent fasting, and then it was psychedelics, and then it was it was it was all manner of peptides is was there after that and which is still here. It just goes on and on. And then Elon was the one who, you know, kept calling the body meat sacks to me. Like that downloading your brain, putting it into the ether, living forever via another meat sack or something like that. And so, it just was like I was so sick of it.

I was like, "I think I'll just do a documentary series about it." I'm also writing a book about it. I was talking to a friend of mine the other day who's much younger than me. She was thinking a lot about how to keep her brain sharp, and so she was getting back into meditation. She was taking piano lessons again, and she was learning a new language. Which brings me to one of our sponsors today, Rosetta Stone. Many of us have tried learning another language before, maybe Spanish in high school or a few phrases for a trip, but when it's time to actually use those skills, we realize that just knowing a few words is not the same as a real conversation.

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That's right, your choice of ribeye or top sirloins for a year or ground beef and bacon for a year, plus $20 off your first box and free shipping always. That's butcherbox.com/happier. That's butcherbox.com/happier. That's butcherbox.com/happier. Don't forget to use our links so they know we sent you. Where do you come down on some of these things you've just listed? Peptides, pan scans. scans. scans. Don't need the scan. They don't A good A good annual physical is fine. It's fine if you want to do it for your own enjoyment and you happen to have the money, but it doesn't give you any unless you find yourself to have a tumor, which okay, that's a good thing to find.

But for the most part, you know, you get these false positives and you things that and you do more tests that you don't need. So it doesn't really gives you an enormous amount of insight. It gives you And it only gives you insight in the moment in that moment of your body's time. So it's expensive and kind of pointless in a lot of ways. A good annual physical with a series of blood tests is plenty and most people should have those, which they don't in this country.

Well, we can get to that in a minute, but and the other thing is um um um so that I I'm like, you don't need that unless you have so much money and I still don't understand why you need to You don't even understand that data or what it means. And again, it's a it's a snapshot in time. Peptides is really that's the new trendy thing. Um you know, look, GLP-1s are peptides, right? So, you know, a lot of people are using them and they of course everything is like, I feel better.

I'm like, ah, not scientific. None of the science is there yet. And I don't mean to say it's not going to be, it just isn't. If you go if you actually go find all the studies, very unproven. And that's my issue with it. It's like, you feel better? Really? Thank you, Dr. you know, Einstein. Like, I don't I don't get it. Like, and that's what And also you're using peptides that have been mixed largely in China right now, which is where they're getting from them. And so whenever someone does this, they're like, "Peptides." I'm like, "China.

They're They may not be pure. Sepsis. Sepsis is real bad, and you could get sepsis." Like, I'm like, "Why are you doing this for unproven science?" Like, it's kind of silly, and people just shove it in there, and they're like Scott does a lot of these things. things. things. Who's Scott Galloway, your co-host on Pivot on Pivot podcast? that's the other one. I feel better. Some of it is useful for healing wounds and things like that. And NADs? NADs? NADs? NADs, it's a it's another thing.

It's They just The rich people go through them really fast, and they In the Hamptons, they go through them. "Oh, I'm taking this. I'm taking that." Um red light, people are mad at me, but most of the science isn't is somewhat promising, but not yet. This is red light therapy? therapy. It works on plants in space. It helps them grow. And if you're a plant in space, I highly recommend it. Um Um Um some some inflammation stuff, sure, but the My issue is the amount of money and the promises.

It's not just possible small amounts of inflammation is it is going to make you young. It is going to solve your cancer. Like, I'm like, "No." And they don't usually do that with red light, but what they do is they ascribe, if you look online, they give it an answer for everything, and it's the science just isn't there. And I'm just like, "I'm sorry. I cannot find really good scientific gold standard proof that this is the case." And so But then you have people who just swear, "I feel better.

I feel But I'm like, "With the $600 face mask?" Same thing with heavy supplements, right? Some of them vitamin K, probably. It's hard to get it elsewhere. B12, yes, that's something you don't get as easily, but you know, say fish oil. I get it why people are taking it. Eat a piece of fish. Like, I'm just I don't know. Just Or protein maxing, that's the other one. Men. You don't need this much protein. Every single study says you don't need this much. You need a certain amount, that's true.

Same thing with fiber, same thing with anything else. But what they do is they take one thing and then take it if if a little protein is good, then a lot of it has to be really good for you. And it's not. RFK, it's not. Do not eat caribou, no matter what he says. It's not going to be good for you in the end and you're going to die. And so a lot of these interventions are not going to be good later, right? When you're older.

And I I worry about that. Oh, hyperbaric chambers. chambers. chambers. I went in one. You do not need a hyperbaric chamber unless you are involved in the building of the Brooklyn Bridge in 18 in the 1890s, yes, or 70s. That that's an important bends. The bends is a terrible thing and you should go in a hyperbaric chamber. There's some indication around wound healing when you're and you have surgeries and stuff, but a lot of people are using it like just go in it. And again, if a little oxygen is good, a lot more might be better.

And they can also blow up. That's always an issue and you could get a stroke in there, too. Like I'm sort of like for what is I feel better. Oh, okay. Great. Good for you. It cost $300 to sit in there and get more oxygen. I don't Again, it's people take advantage of it. Trying to think of some other things. There's so many. Recently there was electric Oh, sorry, go on. electric vests when you exercise it shocks you. shocks you. shocks you. I mean, you remember those like Remember the thing where they like shook your butt that you back in the old days?

That didn't work. Like but everyone was doing it. Like that's the kind of thing. Electric vests that shock you while you're working you're working you're working someone said it to me the other day. Yeah, you you wear a vest or weighted vests. Fine. Okay. Those are okay. Those seem fine. seem fine. seem fine. Um you have to be careful about on your joints and everything else, but um the they're electric vests and they shock you. I just I couldn't even. I was like, no. We're not doing it.

We're not doing this. this. this. Something else you test on the show alongside the aforementioned Scott Galloway is sound therapy. Sound therapy. Which is actually at some point there's some indications that sound can calm people, cortisol issues, things like that. But you already know this when you listen to a symphony. You know, you already know this is a human being. And so this was but here it is taken to extreme. It's a giant seven, I don't know, 15,000. I forget how much it was. It was some number that was large.

It's a pod that you sit in and you listen to indigenous music and it vibrates. I don't know. I could sit on the subway and listen to Tchaikovsky and have the same experience. I don't You know what I mean? Like kind of thing and and so they're trying to do the science around it and I do you you you know, I think through history music has been really important to people and their and their um for calmness, for cortisol, for all kinds of kinds of kinds of you know, I can see it but it's also again unproven and you don't need a pod to do it.

Right. A Spotify subscription might do the trick. the trick. the trick. Correct. Calm. Like whatever. Just use calm. And you know, I think at the same time then people are like going into chatbots and using their phones which are very bad for your health. Like constant doom scrolling besides upsetting you and creating all manner of problems has all these deleterious effects like on you and it's going to be utterly proven the negative effects especially chatbots on people. They start to get psychosis around it. Um especially with kids.

A lot of kids have committed suicide after you know, after having chatbot relationships which a lot of these tech companies are coming in. And so the things that really hurt you, no one's focused on because this is the what we've accepted as our reality which is constantly being staring at a device. I completely see how being sucked into your device all day long specifically social media with the toxic comparison and anger and anxiety. movement. movement. movement. And lack of movement. But chatbots specifically like I talked to Claude about my creative Sure.

That's fine. Okay. That's different. I It would be better to talk to a human. Like actually. Yes, exactly. I mean, I think I'm talking about the dependence on it and you can see it moving that direction. I I interviewed Sherry Turkle of MIT who's been studying this for years and she was it is starting to become a a real problem because it was usually a fringe thing that people had, but when you start to create relationships that are without friction, it's not good for your brain.

It's just not. One of the things that Silicon Valley people say all the time, the word seamless. They like Let's make it seamless. I'm like let's not make it seamless. Because friction is actually very good for your cognitive development. Friction, doing things different, interacting with people. You know, Zeke does all kinds of different things from his job. He makes honey, he dances, he does very good for your health actually, your cognitive health especially. especially. especially. Um which is critically linked to your other health, right? It's It's all part of a system.

And so, um you know, it's fine, but it becomes addictive in that way. And especially, you know, with young men watching porn all the time, young women self-esteem. This all has health effects um on people. And then it it removes people from other people. So, I did like a I did a sober rave, which I a I did a sober rave, which I hated because I don't like dancing in the sauna with young people. Um but it's actually very good for you. It's like group activities.

I play games. Games game play I brought a neuroscientist to a game playing night in Brooklyn where all these young people put their phones down, they play games, mahjong, chess, poker. By the way, these young people cannot play poker. I beat them all very badly. Like a drum. I beat them like a drum is what it was. But it was actually fun. You know what I mean? And you I felt better after and I couldn't quantify it, but we we spend a lot of time because of digital issues away from each other.

If someone was like, "What's the number one thing you can do for longevity?" I was like, "Don't be poor." Really. That's you know, be rich cuz that really helps you in terms of longevity. Two things, universal health care for the whole population um and uh community. Friends and family. Scientific research on this is very clear. Uh human interaction is probably one of the healthiest things you can do. And have connections with people. And lack of connections, loneliness, we talked about that. Um the separation and isolation is incredibly bad for humans.

Yes, and you interviewed Bob Waldinger who is in my opinion just kind of like world world historic Right. Right. Right. of the what his research has shown which which people listening to the show probably are familiar with but this study of multi-generations in the Boston area for 90 years. Both poor and rich, too. They studied, yeah. yeah. yeah. Yes. Yes, and the and the number one variable in your longevity is not uh being in a hyperbaric chamber, it's the quality of your relationship. of your relationships and it's scientific all and they're you know, they're adding things onto that to show that and I think oddly enough people intuitively know this, right?

Cuz I the other night I had a mahjong I got a little mahjong lesson. I hired this lady to do I won it in the school auction and so she came and invited 16 people who did not know each other very well. They knew me but weren't friends necessary cuz it's easier to fall into easy patterns with friends. And we had a bu- [ __ ] ball and everyone was like, I don't I feel better and I was like, but you actually if we looked at your brain right now, you would be better, right?

And it was really interesting and it was a feeling of happiness like happiness of connection um even negative connections can be helpful, right? You know, fights and things like that as long as you you're doing them in a healthy and non-toxic way. Even one of the things that I found interesting among the studies was uh encounters with people you don't know, good encounters socially like you're talk you say hi to a barista or something like that is good for everybody and I would I would challenge everybody.

I say this in a lot of things. things. things. When you go out for coffee, look at the barista and say, "Hey, how's your day?" your day?" your day?" This is what happens. Like you could see like Yes. Yes. Yes. Look up. What? Yes. Yes. Yes. You're interested in me? And follow it with with I watched my son do this and it it's really something when you actually are paying attention to it. How was your day? Like, "Oh, good." Like, "Oh, what are you doing fun this weekend?" Like, it's a game changer and you could see it and then you feel better and then but there are all kinds of scientific I mean, Bob is great.

This happiness study at Harvard is Harvard the Harvard happiness study. And it's really quite remarkable. Now, look, miserable people live long, too, as we know. But know. But know. But but connections but connections but connections Who could you be referring to? My mother. My mother. My mother. Um but um I thought you were talking about Trump. she has a lot of community. Oh, he is Well, you know, he has a lot of community. community. community. Uh oddly enough, he surrounds himself with people all the time.

If you think about it, he's very social. Yes. Yes. Yes. He's very social. I don't I don't think he has any friends. I think he has a lot of people he knows. And but I do think I mean, can you imagine, you know, hugging it out with a guy with him? No, you wouldn't you wouldn't see that. Um but he has connections. He does make connections, whether they're loathsome people, that's for sure, but he does make connections. He's very He likes those out outdoor activities. It's always in service to his ego, so that they they they come let us adore me kind of stuff.

Watch me cheat at golf. Watch me cheat Yeah, at golf, stuff like that. But he he actually is very social. No, that is a fair point. Wants a ballroom, for [ __ ] sake. He's a a a Exactly. Exactly. It We've now moved into the what works section, but I'm just curious, like, has your social life changed as a result of doing this? I'm doing more things I don't One of the things that Zeke does, which I thought was good, is try something you couldn't try. Like my I learned to play mahjong.

I'm not going to keep at it necessarily, but trying to do different I'm looking at that ukulele over there. I'm like, I should learn to play that ukulele. Um you know, some people do crosswords, but it has to be beyond that kind of stuff. I definitely remove the phone from my presence more, cuz you have to. You're addicted to it. You can't help but look at it. It's an addiction machine. And so, I remove it. I spend a lot more time with my kids, um in You don't have to like do constant like things.

Just sitting quietly. The other day I found myself I went into a church and just sat. I haven't been in a church in a long time. time. time. I had a I It was lovely, actually. Am I going to get Carice wish of meditating? meditating? meditating? No. I never. I'm such a monkey mind. No, I I'm the worst meditator. I'm literally I can't do it. I have a monkey do it. I can't do it. I have a monkey mind. mind. mind. Can we talk about this?

Sure. Sure. Sure. Because Because Because Zeke Zeke's on my show as part of this same series we're doing about longevity and he said the same thing to me. Can't do it. And And And None of the Emanuels can meditate. to preface what I'm about to say. Are we going to meditate? No, we're not. I want to preface it by saying I'm not trying to convince you to do anything. I never do that. Um I just want to convince you that the story you're telling yourself that you can't do it is false.

that's true. You're right. So So meditation does not involve clearing your mind. It just means focusing your mind for a nanosecond or or two or two or two on one thing, usually your breath. Mhm. Mhm. Mhm. Every time you get distracted you start again and in the waking up from distraction you learn to be less owned by the monkey mind. Oh, interesting. Oh, interesting. Oh, interesting. So So So I I There is so much science on meditation being so good for your health. I mean, absolutely There's no question in my mind that of all the many things you could do a meditation every day is probably one of the most healthy things you could do for yourself both cognitively and personally and from a just a just a soul point of view, right?

But health health absolutely I have no Every bit of science explains this very clearly and it's one of the ways to do it. Here's how I do it. I've One of the things I started doing I did VO2 max which I do think is actually a great indicator. indicator. indicator. describe what that is? VO2 max is uh basically how your muscles and heart work together in a more efficient manner. That's the easiest way to put it. And you have a score once you you take the test you put one of those you know, one of these masks like Bane masks on your face.

Tom Cruise has it in you know, the know, the know, the [clears throat] [clears throat] [clears throat] the whole facial breathing thing. While you're sprinting on a bike or something. something. something. You don't have to run that hard, but you have to run a certain amount. Getting What you want to do is you want to get your heart rate up and then it's the ability to get it down again. Like the that's you know, so intermittent running is actually one of the best things. Not A lot of men are like, "I'm going to run until I drop." I'm like, "Don't do that.

That's really bad for you. You could possibly have a heart attack. Running up the scale, say zone one, zone two, zone three, go back to zone one. How quickly does your body your heartbeat go back down to whatever it happened In my case, it's 110 to 120. How quickly does it go down from 130? And so, VO2 max measures this. That's all it sits test and I got my VO2 max up quite a bit. Like I was in the low 30s, I got it up to 37 now.

I So, I started running. That's what I cuz I I I used to run. I stopped. And then I started again and it's on the treadmill. And on the treadmill, I don't I don't listen to anything. I don't listen to music. I just do it and that's my meditative state. That is a meditative That is meditative. That's what I do and I let my mind wander and I I get bored, if that makes sense. Like and that's the hardest part is is is I was with my kids the other day and they're they're they're there was a story about boredom and like people's inability to be bored now.

And my son goes, what would you do when you waited in line? I'm like, we were bored. Like you just stood there and you either talked to people you didn't do anything. Like you didn't. And there was nothing to look at. Maybe you had a newspaper possibly or a magazine, but mostly you were bored. And the ability to be bored is something I want to sort of have happen to me. Well, a lot of creativity can come out of boredom. of boredom. of boredom. Absolutely. Absolutely.

Where do you get your I get it in the shower. I often get it in meditation. Oh, interesting. Oh, interesting. Oh, interesting. Because what's happening is you're turning down the volume on habitual thought patterns and then new new things arrive. arrive. arrive. 100% 100% I do it in the shower. I suddenly I'm like, oh yes, that. Like that guy cuz I'm just staring essentially. And I do think that's like a lot of those quiet moments are really important. And I went to Korea and that's a really interesting country.

They've got all kind of manner problems in Korea, let me just say, but they the longevity is going up up up up up, especially among women. And first thing is absolutely universal health care. Universal health care for everybody. The rich get better health, but everybody gets a very quality level of health care every year. They can go up to 16 times and get tests and stuff like that. Their focus on the face people I think is vain. I'm like actually it isn't. It's about your keeping your body feeling good, right?

And that I think that's interesting. And when you say how are you in Korean, what they were telling me is the expression is how is your body. So they're thinking about it. And then the last thing is their nutrition from a young age. If you I went to a school and the stuff they're serving, it's like these kids it's unrecognizable in this country. They learn from a very young age to eat healthy foods, whether it's fermented foods. foods. foods. RFK, you're right about ferments. You're absolutely right.

Ferments are good for you. you. you. [clears throat] [clears throat] [clears throat] Um, but they fermented foods, they have a a protein, they have a whole food, a whole fruit, a whole vegetable. And these kids eat this as if they were eating Doritos and hot dogs. It's really quite something to watch in terms of But it they It's not like they don't eat snacks later. I mean you've seen K-pop Demon Hunters, they absolutely do. But um, they have a base of um, they have a base of healthy eating for the whole population that I think it's probably contributing to that.

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betterhelp.com/happier. betterhelp.com/happier. That's betterhelp.com/happier. That's betterhelp.com/happier. That's betterhelp.com/happier. /happier. Okay, just to reset. We've talked about the [ __ ] We've talked about the stuff that works. And then there's a subsection of the stuff that works that is frustrating for you because it works, but it's so expensive most people can't access it. Which I find irritating. So, what goes in that category? Just even the ability to belong to a health club and go there, right? Most many people have two jobs. You know, that was one exchange with Brian that I thought was my favorite in the whole series where series where series where he goes, you know, everyone can get a good night's sleep.

I go, everybody can't, Brian. can't, Brian. can't, Brian. Like, that he thought that some people, you know, you're a single mother, two jobs, you got to deal in a bad section of town, of town, of town, you can't sleep very well. You have housing insecurity, you have health care insecurity, you have child care insecurity, insecurity, insecurity, one after the other. The health implications just And that to me is one of the things that was sort of like the amount of money we spend in not keeping people well at the beginning in preparation.

preparation. preparation. It's like it's like um putting $20 in the bank and then when you get to 70, you have a million dollars. Like, this is the money we pay in that period. The the the the the statistic that got me is I think in this country our our health span is 65, apparently. That's what it's at now. Our life span is 79 now, which seems very young for most people, right? But that's what it is. That 14-year gap is all sick care. It's, you know, hypertension, inflammation, cancer, blah, blah, blah.

First, you have to collapse that. That would be great to collapse the the lifespan and health span. The other part is we spend 15k, a little bit more than 15k on health care per capita. per capita. per capita. Other and we are at the lowest of every wrong. Every single indicator of health, we are at the bottom of. Korea, every peer country, essentially, is 6, 7,000 dollars and they have so much better health outcomes. So, to me, it's a it's an economic argument. What are we doing?

Like we're wasting money on people dying like in a ways that are totally preventable. And that's the other part. So, and let me put the last part I would say is some of the some of the break medical breakthroughs. That to me was really exciting. That's the part I really thought was important was that all [clears throat] this noise, everything else, there are medical breakthroughs happening around mRNA technology. technology. technology. What's that? What's that? What's that? Okay. Okay. Okay. It's the mRNA vaccines. It was used for COVID, but mRNA is messenger RNA, ribonucleic acid.

It's It's the COVID vaccine except it was originally meant studied for a cancer vaccine. They can They will be able to do a cancer vaccine. They just announced a pancreatic vaccine, pancreatic cancer vaccine. This is a very trouble This is a cancer that is not easily treated that traditionally. They've made huge strides in breast cancer and lung cancer, not pancreatic not lung cancer, excuse me, breast cancer and a variety of cancers. Just lung cancer and pancreatic cancer are very difficult to treat with current methods. And so, these mRNA technologies are amazing, but what is the Trump administration cutting?

So, I visited an mRNA lab and essentially the head of it who won a Nobel Prize is like, "They're murderers. They're We're killing people." So, mRNA technology, amazing. GLP-1 technology is really interesting speaking of peptides, but this this idea of getting use helping use this this drug to to get people slim and then accompanying it with food food education and and exercise education. education. education. Groundbreaking. Groundbreaking. Groundbreaking. But they're expensive. They are now. They shouldn't be. I would if I was running it, I'd give everyone who needed a GLP-1 to take it.

And then there's right now all these studies about it's helping cognitive health and strokes and things like that. take one? take one? take one? I do now because my my cardiac doctor was like a very small amount. But it's like two I forget what it is. I haven't started yet. But it's But it's But it's it's in order to prevent the stroke because there's all these indications that GLP-1 drugs help help with strokes and I don't want a recurrence of my stroke. All manner of things, but we should be doing gold standard tests and all this for our citizens so that we get rid of obesity, we get rid of, you know, food food noise.

It has indications around addiction. Andrew Weil Kessler is former FDA commissioner. He himself, smart man, educated man, has enough money was way overweight and GLP-1s is the only thing that worked. I just saw Whoopi Goldberg who talks about it. She was 230 pounds. Now she's healthy. She said she's gotten rid of her hypertension, she's gotten rid of Like there's all these great stories, but it's not just about weight, it's about other things, too. Addictions. Addictions. Addictions. The other thing I thought think is amazing. I I hate to say AI, but AI and drug discovery, AI and cancer research, gene folding, CRISPR.

I interviewed Jennifer Doudna. Jennifer Doudna. Jennifer Doudna. I went to one lab at Stanford, right? When I had my stroke, they used a a catheter that went up my leg and put a plug in my heart, right? That was perfect. There's a new technology they're working on at Stanford which is astonishing that I show on the show where they have this Remember the Fantastic Voyage when they injected the little ship into the rich guy to in order to solve the clot or whatever he had. It's an old Look it up.

It's about this bunch of scientists that get injected into the body and they get attacked by white blood cells. Anyway, it's a great show. It's a It's an old and it's like all old glitchy uh you know, technology [clears throat] that looks stupid on the screen, but it's fan you know, like the you can see the string for the thing. And and so this thing goes This is a little nanobot. It's not It's not that small. It's It's small. It It's getting It's injected into your neck if you have a stroke, right when you're having a stroke, they inject in your neck and through magnets and AI and a mapping of your particular brain, it goes to the stroke and it eats it and then it comes out.

Wow. Now they have to put catheters up there, which is better than before, right? Everything has gotten better. And if sometimes the the blood clot would break off and go further, which is worse, right? So there's just this amazing technologies that people work on, all of which are being decimated by the Trump administration. The stuff we're doing here around here around here around vaccines alone is murderous as far as I'm concerned, that we are we are demonizing a technology that has been so helpful to humanity and keeps us healthy, you know, the fact that measles is back.

is back. is back. I mean, I call Robert F. Kennedy Jr. best friend to measles. And yes, he's right about eating apples, Robert. Thank you. you. you. No [ __ ] No [ __ ] an apple's good for you. So. you. So. you. So. Just to double click on what you said before, that we may have a vaccine for pancreatic cancer. pancreatic cancer. pancreatic cancer. Mhm. They're working I just interviewed the guy who's working on at Sloan Kettering. They're show What they do is they they they Eventually, this was really interesting, you'll get the vaccine before you get pancreatic cancer.

And it There's lots of different ways to do this. One is to prevent things that later lead to pancreatic cancer. Another one is to solve the give you a longer lifespan in the thing. People with pancreatic cancer usually get like 6 months to 2 years to live, essentially. essentially. essentially. The people that are on these vaccines um these specialized vaccines aimed at them, which is the how mRNA technology works, works, works, um they're living eight to nine like eight to nine years, which is really like it changes the game.

And then there's Think about all that expense in that time period of dying. Like the amount of how it's expensive to die in our country. Right? Cuz we hold on we hold people on that should go and we also can't solve the real problems, which is mobility and stuff. And then the last thing I thought was amazing in Korea was these exoskeletons that they're working on all these devices that are powered by AI and mechanics. Used to be a lot of this stuff is just mechanical, but AI is now involved that involved that involved that people that can't walk will walk with these exoskeletons.

And think about the health care implications there. Sitting in a chair, all that health care, you know, if you could walk and have be mobile, it changes your mental outlook, it changes your health outlook. And they're the government is funding them. Um, lots of experiments. Even AI that, you know, I think it's quite the way we are putting it out because the companies are in charge of guidelines for AI AI and they're always going to try to take advantage of you. In Korea, they're funding a a thing the government is where old people they put AI in dolls, like these dolls, and these women who are lonely, like older women are lonely, they give them these dolls and they learn to play with them, which is always good to play with a doll.

Like it makes you feel better. And the AI engages with them. The dolls talk to them and they can respond in real time kind of stuff like, "How are you doing today?" "Oh, I'm bad." "Oh, the weather's Like like you're talking to a person. It solves the loneliness issue they have there and at the same time they then bring all the women with the dolls together. But the government is controlling it so it doesn't get out of hand. It doesn't say, "Hey, perhaps you should hang yourself today." which some of this AI does say to young people especially.

So One thing I'm hearing and this was a few sentences ago that that the future of health care is going to be hyper personalized. personalized. personalized. Yes, it will be. Yes. They will understand your body and and help you specifically. Although bodies have a lot of commonality, right? There's a lot of commonality in a lot of things. And that's one of the things that is you know, we do treat it a little bit too artisanally in the wrong things. And not And not we should do more of commonality.

But yes, they will be able to Why not use technology for what's good at, which is pattern matching, all manner of things it does well. But to me, they will be able to target your particular cancer cells. And one of one of the people I interviewed, as much as I I give tech people a hard time, was Reed Jobs, the son of Steve Jobs. He's been investing in all manner of stuff, especially because his dad died of pancreatic cancer. But one of the things he was working on was um was liver cancer and getting rid of the as I believe I'm telling you correctly is if you get um happy, I think it's happy, leads to liver cancer almost all alcoholism and happy, I think it's happy B not A.

And if you can get rid of block happy from ever happening, you don't get liver cancer. Or a lot of people don't. If you drink too much, you're probably going to get it. get it. get it. And so that's kind of really promising. And I find that really interesting to try to use you know, these technologies. Drug discovery is another one. How quickly like shingles like shingles like shingles the they didn't think it was for cognitive health, but AI figured that out, right? Like wow, we we would have gotten there.

But think of all the people you can help in the interim that you did it. And so that's how I think look at technology. And so there's all manner of things it's going to be able to to help us with, but it is not distributed among everybody cuz it's such a cost to keep people sick. It's such a cost to have the the amount of money we spend on health care is such wasted money. And it's also it's a happiness deficit, right? Like being sick sucks and it takes the joy out of your life.

And you know, it doesn't allow you to be with your kids. It doesn't allow gets in the way of a lot of things. It makes you miserable. It makes you dependent on drugs. Um and we did a little psychedelics. I took ketamine. took ketamine. took ketamine. Did you like it? No. No. No. Why not? Why not? Why not? Cuz I I felt alone and I don't like being alone. I like I wasn't lonely. I'm never lonely. I wish I was lonely sometimes. I mean, everyone has trauma.

It's been shown to have some really great effects on people with PTSD and vets and stuff. I I I I want them to do lots of experiments. I just talked to Michael Pollan about it just just last week. Um there's all manner of interesting experiments being done here and anything to get us off of opiates is aces in my book, essentially. Uh again, the problem is it's being used recreationally. It's being used as as a party drug. It's being used not in the ways that could you know, we need those standard tests to understand what works and what doesn't.

I just didn't like it. I I felt I felt isolated in a way I didn't enjoy. It's also nauseating. I'm not a drug [clears throat] person. I don't I don't do drugs, but a lot of people like them. They like ayahuasca. They like mushrooms. They like and I I'm all for studying like Michael talked about LSD in his last book. Um you know, cuz it was demonized by the Nixon administration cuz all the hippies were trying it out. But there were so many promising studies around LSD that just got we don't know.

So why not do Why don't we find out and try to get that? And I'm all for that. Let me end where we started Sure. Sure. Sure. because I think one of the things that makes your work in this space distinctive is the fact that you're talking about longevity in the light of death. death. death. Yes, and in the light of technology. Yes. Yes, fair point. But let me stick with the death part for a second. You're essentially making the case in millennia of contemplative history would back you up on this that contemplating death Yes.

Yes. Yes. is actually additive. It is. It is. You know, it's funny. I'll get I'm going to reach down for my phone here, but one of the things I have on my phone is a thing called WeCroak. Oh yeah, I had the founder on my on love him. He's such a sweetheart. So, you know, with WeCroak it says one of the things and well, this is an interesting one. It's it's it comes up with quotes and it says, In Bhutan they say contemplating death five times daily brings happiness.

I absolutely agree with every time and then this one is I think it's always nice to know that you are not alone even in death, Joe Brainard. True. It is. I think knowing you're going to die is as as I quote Steve Jobs as the single greatest gift that you know, because it it spurs you to live your life and I I got a lot of inspiration from Steve who died far too young. too young. too young. He was he gave that speech at Stanford that was so famous, his his death speech essentially saying, anytime I feel stuck, I think I'm going to be dead and I then I change and then I get up kind of stuff and he said it's the single greatest invention of life.

He's so different than all these people, these narcissistic pricks. He was narcissistic in his own way, but not he had a much broader thing and I think in in um in um in um in dying young, the shame was that he was beginning to understand that like that idea. I was trying to create a life where that where he was thinking about death and it was a if you would read any speech, read that speech he did at Stanford about death and and I really I that really was very profound to me because if you do that like I know it sounds dumb, but people are like, how are you so successful at like changing like I always change things in media, I try new things.

You did you've done it yourself, right? I was like cuz I'm going to be dead in 50 years. years. years. And they're always like, what? I'm like, that's every time I don't want to do something, I'm like, oh, hey, guess what? In 50 years I'll be dead. And then I'm like, oh, okay, then I'll do it. And so I think it promotes risk, it promotes innovation, it promotes not getting dragged down by things as if you're going to be here forever and I just I think it gives you freedom.

It that's what it did for me at least. I don't know if it does that for you. You've changed, right? Yes. Yeah. Yes. Yeah. Yes. Yeah. Why do you do what you do? Why do you do what you do? There's the question of why do I do what I do generally, and I think it's kind of summed up in this tattoo I have on my wrist. FTBOAB is just a Buddhist expression for the benefit of all beings. That's what I do. I'm very clear about. My job is to be of use to other human beings.

Right. So, my decisions are made in that light. In that light. So, it's a service light. Mine more or more, another Buddhist saying which is um everything is subject to decay. Those that know this are at peace though in a world of pain. That's a famous quote, right? And so, on my tattoos, that's compared tattoos. You have one, Louis? I have lots of tattoos. I have I have lots of These are my four kids. Uh Louis, Clara, Alex, Saul. They're in little hearts. But underneath it is the symbols, and I have a ginkgo leaf on my leg that I hate.

It's my first tattoo. I don't like it. It looks like a shamrock, and then people think I have a shamrock. And why would I have a [ __ ] shamrock? Like it's a ginkgo leaf, the greatest, you know, the longest living plant on planet on Earth plant on Earth. So, this is um entropy. Entropy, excuse me. This is entropy, which is all things are subject to decay. All things will be destroyed. It no matter everything's on its way to something else. something else. something else. That's chaos, right?

But the opposite is There's always an opposite chemical reaction to everything. This is entropy, which is everything's on its way to something else. something else. something else. And so, this is about building. And if you're in the Indian you're in if you're in the Indian religion, it's Ganesh, destroyer and creator. That's There's so many themes about that. So, these two belong together. Like Yes, it's being destroyed, but guess what? It's like I'm going to be something. I'm not going to be this table someday, but something else.

Like who knows? Like And at the end of the show, we talk about it with my brothers. We're eating oysters, and I was like, "Well, they think everything is something else." And we were I had been talking about my grandmother, and we were starting to eat the oyster. I'm like, "Maybe this is grandma." And then we just go, "Delicious." And it was kind of wonderful that, you know, and that's a famous quote, you know, the the king eats the thing and then he becomes the worm and then the worm eats the king and then the worm is eaten by the bird who then is eaten by the king and you you kind of like that.

You kind of It's a good policy and yours is in service, which is really nice. I'm not as service-oriented as you are, which I appreciate. appreciate. appreciate. I'm in service at my best. I see. I see. I see. In moments where I'm being shitty, it's when I fall out of Oh, out of service others. Yeah. I think of it more like I know it sounds dumb, but I was at a job I didn't like and and I thought I did the death thought. I'm like, oh, I'm going to be dead.

I'm going to get I got to get out of here. I got to get out of here. And the person who I quit it was a big job goes, "Nobody quits here." I'm like, "Well, they do. They actually just did." And they're like, "Why are Why are you quitting?" And I turned to them and said, "Do you want to know the truth?" And they said, "Yes." I said, "I don't want to talk to you anymore." And they were like, "What?" And I go, "Ever." Like the minutes of my life tick tock away.

And I say that to my kids all the time when they keep me waiting. I'm like, "Tick tock, let's go." And they were like, "What?" And I go, "Got to go." And I just was I couldn't I like that was I was so aware of time and I think my favorite quote of all time is Henry I think it's Henry the Fourth. Um I waste time and now doth time waste me. I don't waste time. time. time. And we are all the beneficiaries. Oh, thank you.

You too. I think what you're doing is amazing. Thank you. I appreciate it. it. Yeah. it. Yeah. it. Yeah. I'm grateful for your time, grateful for your work. This was awesome. you. you. you. Thank you so much to everybody who worked so hard to make this show. 10% Happier is produced by Tara Anderson and Eleanor Vassili. Our recording and engineering is handled by the great folks over at Pod People. Lauren Smith is our managing producer. And Marissa Shneiderman is our senior producer. DJ Cashmere is our executive producer.

And Nick Thorburn of the great indie rock band Islands wrote our theme. One last thing I want to say before you go, if you enjoy this show, please do me {slash} us a solid. Follow the show and leave a rating and a review on whatever platform you watch or listen to us on. It only takes a minute, it's free, and it really helps new people find us and spread the good news that the mind is trainable. Thank you. Sincerely, I mean it. Thank you.