The Mindset Behind 50 Marathons in 24 Days | William Goodge

Key Takeaway

When a goal feels overwhelming, shrink it to the next physical action. William Goodge’s rule is: “Can I take another step?” Unless something is genuinely wrong, the answer is usually yes. Use this today when facing a workout, difficult conversation, or delayed project: ignore the entire mountain, identify one next step that takes under five minutes, and do it before negotiating with yourself.

Episode Overview

William Goodge returns to discuss Mission America: an attempt to run 50 marathons in 50 states across 24 days while fundraising for Stand Up To Cancer in honor of his late mother. He and Rich Roll explore the extreme logistics, training, recovery, grief, identity, public scrutiny, and mindset required to undertake an uncertain challenge of this scale.

Full Transcript

Transcript of The Mindset Behind 50 Marathons in 24 Days | William Goodge from Rich Roll Podcast. Auto-generated from episode audio; may contain minor errors.

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Yeah, this is a whole new level of insanity. This is mission America William Good William good William good ran across the entire United States fastest British person ever He's an absolute beast when it comes to ultra running on paper This should be the most difficult thing I've ever done the level of intricacy and detail on this is unlike anything I've ever done before though has to flow exactly right. How do you think about that and prepare yourself? I think a lot of us move through life with fear and A lot of the time fear stops us from chasing our dreams or chasing our goals So I have the most simple phrase can I take another step?

The answer is always yes Well, it's good to have you back here man for round two I'm one of your biggest fans You keep raising the bar on your challenges challenging yourself and The latest iteration of this is very difficult to get my head around Many people have run. I don't know how many but more than a few have run 50 marathons in 50 states in 50 days. We all know Dean Karnazes It's probably the most celebrated person who's done it and he wrote a book about it I know that book was very influential on you.

Do we know how many people have done that? I have no idea. No. Yeah, I would imagine there's a handful at least right? Yeah, and they'd have probably done it over like a period of years as well because there is one record for a lady That's done the fastest Average time in all 50 states, which I assume would be actual races. Hmm Yeah, right but with no time limit on or like doing it in a calendar year or something exactly right But what you're about to embark upon on October 3rd is at a whole other level.

You're gonna do 50 marathons in 50 states and You're gonna do it in 24 days, correct? Yeah The only thing is I'm starting October 9th, but October 9th. Sorry October 9 It's difficult for me to even get my head around this Not only are you kind of having you know cutting in half the amount of days that Dean did it. It's it's like Then one more day like you could have set it for 25 and said I'm gonna cut it in half and you went to 24 I'm curious around that This is bananas on most days.

You're gonna be running two marathons in two different states, but on four occasions October 17th, October 19th, October 25th and October 30th. You're gonna be running three marathons in separate states Mm-hmm in a 24-hour period Yeah, how is this possible? Well, it is possible because originally I was going to try and do it in 20 days That was the most extreme version of this but in working with Goodwin my premier partner, they've figured out Sort of the best way around the country of doing it but also there has to be some kind of time allocation for if anything goes wrong because we're We're driving a lot.

We're taking commercial flights and we're taking Private flights as well. So if anything goes wrong like a car breaks down or a flight is delayed that knock-on effect Domino effect could ruin the entire thing. So making it 24 days has allowed a buffer It's basically a four-day buffer Knowing that if everything goes to plan that you possibly could do this in 20 days Exactly. Yeah, but because we're we're tied to finishing at the New York City Marathon, which is obviously an epic event to finish up 60,000 other people running it's not just me in New York Hopefully some people would turn up but it's like a really cool celebration I did something similar in the UK when I finished doing 48 marathons in 30 days at the London Marathon, right?

So it adds a level to it But yeah, the pressure is on from the very beginning like each marathon has to be less than five hours Otherwise, we're in trouble so those days of three will be will be interesting but I've run those distances before and It adds the madness of it because running across country like point-to-point I've done that quite a few times now and this is This is gonna be it's gonna be crazy. But in all of the right ways, this is a whole new level of insanity Yeah, but it's also the most kind of aura farming googe-coated Ultra mog that I could possibly imagine for you.

Like it's kind of perfect You're the only person who can do this and you're doing it once again with your own kind of like bespoke unique googe flair because your primary partner is basically a Like a digital logistics company for private aviation, right? So this is providing you with access to PJs To supplement the travel there's this elaborate map where it shows where you're gonna be on every single day that you shared with me essentially, it's some combination of commercial aviation private aviation and driving in a van And that mix is gonna basically allow you to be in all of these places And just the elaborate nature of the logistics here like the it's it's like a military operation essentially It's completely insane and Robbie friend of yours You're a very close friend of mine Robbie Ballinger and Jason the guy that helped me across Australia as well former Marine They were looking at the plans when we're in Colorado recently And they were just they were mind-blown because the level of intricacy and detail on this has to has to flow exactly, right?

Traveling so much making sure on time, etc So yeah The level of detail and the people behind the scenes working on this is unlike anything I've ever done before People think when you run across a country, it's like the planning must be crazy I'm like, dude, I go on Google Maps and have right Perth going to Sydney in the walking You just have to make sure the RV, you know exactly as a GPS or what? It's like you're going straight for like, you know a thousand miles Yeah, and there's no like there's no exacting pressure other than that like the limits of what I've said I'm gonna do it in so I'm gonna run 60 miles 70 miles in the day.

This is all exact exact move on Next place next time next stop Yeah, it's sort of like a special forces operation. How many people contributed to? Kind of nailing down these logistical plans Well to be honest There's probably around 50 people involved in total across all like partners because we're doing it with go fund me again behind it Stand up to cancer. It's gonna be a fully functioning website That's gonna be insane and quite gamified as well, which is really cool. And then the team at Goodwin I think there's 50 employees and a lot of them working on this one way or another and then my own crew PR you have your core your core guys that you it's the best thing on all of these journeys.

Yeah It's the best team I've put together. I'm really excited about it Robbie's not gonna do the whole thing though, right? He's gonna do the first half and then him and Jason and they're gonna overlap I think in Chicago They'll do a couple of days together and then Jason will carry on for the rest But I've got one of my closest friends Peter John a former military guy as well, right? He's the guy with the longest hair. Yeah a trooper rock and roller loves going to Berlin parties has his own like Luxury brand he is he's one of the funniest blokes I've ever met complains about everything But there's there's a few people that complain about everything and be really funny at the same time Mm-hmm, and he's definitely one of those characters.

So Like having military people around someone like this is obviously perfect because they're that way hardwired and then Robbie having done Freak out when you know, there's a thunderstorm or something Unforeseen happens because you've done enough of these to know like they don't go to plan like stuff's gonna happen So you're wise to build in those extra four days Exactly, especially when you're relying on commercial aviation. Yeah, you have no control over how that goes down that's the testing one and also like widening out as meant we can go to Like great cities within those states rather than kind of doing it in the middle of nowhere Because a big part of this is going to be opening up to anyone that wants to join for the first three miles We're gonna be doing like a three mile loop in every single state so anyone can come down be part of it and then me and the crew will Take off and do the rest the map that you shared with me showed all the there's like dots on all the you know State locations, but it wasn't specific about where and I was curious like are you just gonna be you know?

Coming in on a PJ and doing it around a landing strip and then taking off again or that's interesting like trying to make sure That you're in some kind of urban center where people where it's accessible for people who want to yeah I've been enjoying there are there are some that will be close to airstrips, but we'll do it outside But like California, we're doing it in LA. We'll be doing it along Santa Monica Beach. Miami will be doing Miami Beach We're in Dallas for Texas South Dakota, we're gonna go past the President's the president heads what they called again.

Oh, yeah Mount Rushmore Mount Rushmore So we're taking in some epic locations. Obviously the big one in Hawaii to start will be great as well We're in Honolulu. Are you gonna run the Honolulu Marathon course? I don't know exactly yet the course the the routes are being finalized We've got them all through but some of them need some editing But like I said, they're gonna be in major cities or interesting places in each state you have From looking at the at the map. It looks like there's at least five commercial flights five or six three private jet flights 49 transfers all other transitions are some mix of driving and flying There's an interesting kind of doubling back at one point like you're in, Ohio And then you're getting on a plane and flying to Arizona like yeah The whole thing is you're starting in health you're starting in Hawaii and you're moving east right to end in New York City but at some point The logistical wisdom was we need to do this in order to make all of this work Like it really is like this Jenga jigsaw puzzle sort of deal Yeah, it's it's insane the more you look at it almost the more confusing it is, but the more it works out It's uh, it's impressive what they've put together Sometimes we have to be in certain places like there's a the biggest conference for private aviation in the US is in Vegas for the Date we have to be there.

So we're gonna like run through the convention center get people going crazy This is like primed for this is like, you know prime YouTube content I assume you have a full film crew like documenting this whole thing. Yeah, we'll have we'll have a team there as usual This is a high-budget Affair. Yeah, it must be have good one as your partner like who's paying for all of this the good when I get behind it Yeah, do you have I assume you have a bunch of other sponsors?

Yeah, I'm I'm with whip again Well, I've been with work for I've worn one of these since pre-covid So I've always worn them you mantra and electrolyte company We're gonna do a collab product together with my own company riskier, which will be cool. That's your sunglasses Yeah, exactly, right and then we're bringing out a full range of kit for the for the event itself We've got like tortoise you think of Metallica going on tour I'm gonna have like quite rock and roll t-shirts with every single say the merch stand in each state exactly But we're also from those specific teas as well We're gonna do like a $10 donation from each sale to go to the go to stand up to cancer as well so there'll be some some give back there as well, but Yeah, it's gonna be mega once again the motivation behind this is very much rooted in your relationship with your mom who passed away from cancer and How has that kind of philanthropic aspect of what you do changed or or kind of matured?

over the course of the many Ultra conquests that you've been involved in yeah at the big at the beginning it was what got me into it because the Christmas after she passed away I was in all sorts of mess obviously and I decided to get out of Christmas by running a marathon and I raised money for Macmillan cancer support who she had Raised money for before helped me and my family through what they'd been through So I went out in that marathon and raised like 20,000 pounds and had this light bulb moment of like, okay I've just I've just ran which is something that's really helping me personally like deal with the loss but then at the end of it, there's this funding for an amazing charity helping people and Then immediately I was like, what can I do next which then led to eight months later running the length of the UK John I go to land's end and For me, it's matured in a sense that I started running because I needed to I had all this pent-up aggression anger sadness I was 23 at the time.

So you mature enough to be able to make your own decisions But I think as men especially where we're not quite there on a level of maturity yet So there was two very clear paths one of absolute self-destruction which I could have definitely done been given like a free pass at or the other one was to To use it to celebrate her and the woman she was and how she raised me to be a man Mm-hmm So we've always raised money on the things we've done because then it's less like a an egotistical adventure of like I look how look how great I am that I can run thousands of miles and it looks cool like The outcome is outside of myself and it can it can really help thousands hundreds of thousands of people with With the funding we we make so It makes it a beautiful end That's never quite going to be an end because I feel like i'll always be be doing something in that realm But this is the first time that you're working with stand up to council.

Yeah I mean, they're kind of like the premier leading organization. Yeah, exactly. So it's it's it's not just support It's also research trying to rid the world of this disease that affects one in two of us Personally is if we're going to get it or that means that everyone's affected by it one way or another like everyone knows someone that's Had cancer got cancer living through it. So Anything I can do to give back in in that world is a is a privilege. Um And yeah, it's quite it's quite humbling to be able to do that as well It's the it's the best thing that's come out of anything i've done personally, i've been able to deal with that loss and Make it more of like a celebration now where at the start was I was basically trying to beat myself up I was I was looking for a way of self-harm that wasn't too.

Uh Wasn't too scary to like people around me. Um, but that feels more like sorry to step on your words. Um, But just I want to kind of like double click on that a little bit like it's one thing to grieve and be sad but my sense is that there was a sense of anger or Like confusion there's something more going on there like that this A lot of people, you know suffer the loss of a parent at some point But for whatever reason like this seems like it landed Extra hard on you and I want to understand that a little bit better.

Yeah, so Outside of just losing your mom in any context, which is terrible timing was bad, but also in our family. She was the least deserving She hardly ever drank never smoked. She was a nurse. She was active She ate well so for her to get it and People understand how I live and my dad loves going for pints and stuff not saying that anyone else should have got it But it was like, um, it was a real sucker punch That she was the one that got it had to deal with it three times and eventually passed from it.

So Yeah, I had a lot of pent-up anger. Why? Why her? um We all say as like a family if we could have taken it we'd have taken it ourselves like my dad my brother and me so yeah, it led to It led to me needing an out an outlet to get rid of that rage But because I loved her so much and she was an amazing woman I I couldn't let it be destructive because then i'd have been using her as an excuse for destroying my own life, which Was unacceptable not exactly a great legacy for her exactly.

It's not fair to her. No legacy Yeah, did your brother take it as hard as you did? Yeah, we did it in different ways Women so we didn't really talk about it too much. We've got we've as the journey's gone long. We have it ish men Yeah, yeah british men for sure um But he's been involved in a lot of the things i've done. He understands it He's grieved in his own way, but we've all found some level of peace or acceptance You can't change the things that have happened.

You can only change how you move forward with it. So Mm-hmm And do you still every year on on her birthday run the number of miles that she would be had she survived? Yes, I sometimes do kilometers sometimes in miles. But yeah last week I did 62 miles for her birthday, which is Outside of it just being like good for what i've got training why is it's like a moment for me where the reason I love running is because it's an escape from being By a phone or having something to do you're just free in your own world So for those 62 miles or whatever it took me 10 hours.

I can just reflect be with her Be out in nature, which she loved gardening and being out and about so I get to have that like journey with her um So yeah, it's a it's a beautiful thing I do and a recognition and we raise some money again for stand up to cancer Just through that So it's like a little present that i'd give to her so people Uh can contribute to this on the go fund me, uh, or directly to stand up cancer How does it how does it work if people want to get involved and contribute?

Yeah, there's going to be a full website and a big donation thing going directly to stand up to cancer through go fund me Um, but a really interesting thing we're doing and I noted a little bit earlier about like gamifying it on the website. We're going to have Uh leaderboards for like the top states that have donated The top individuals and then there's also challenges that people can do It's going to be running every day for 24 days or running 50 miles in 24 days, which I think is going to link to strava So you can sign up to that.

There'll be a leaderboard for people's miles Um, but also people can fundraise As part of what i'm doing as well. Yeah, so people might have their own stories which will celebrate along the way So all of that will funnel towards this this big pot that i'm doing but everyone involved will uh will be seen and There's an example like we're going to do these torties But we're doing a specific one for stand up to cancer if you donate a hundred dollars You'll get a free t-shirt and then there's higher tiers to to what you get but yeah, we're trying for me this is like This is a huge opportunity to raise a lot of money Like the the amount of people that involved having press local press around the place I really feel like I can make a big impact and we can raise a huge amount of money.

Yeah for sign up to cancer. So Yeah, it's um, it's a privilege. It's also a pressure Not just doing the doing the thing Which is obviously quite hard already, but yeah, you're you're a steward of this movement and there's a responsibility to make it successful So This episode is brought to you by airbnb As summer winds down crowds thin out and the events arrive the marathons the festivals the games and suddenly Hundreds of thousands of people are descending on a city for a weekend i've been on the traveler side of that equation plenty landing in a city that's completely full scrolling airbnb and Finding somebody's actual apartment real kitchen local neighborhood Every time I think about the person who lives there Off on their own trip their home earning its keep while they're gone Because that's the flip side almost nobody thinks about when the big event comes to your town.

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Yeah in a really cool way and so there is this Kind of opportunity that's for you right now with how you're going to tell this story That really I think could capture the hearts and minds and the imagination of like the entire world because it's so outrageous But it's also flash You know You got the planes and you got like you have said the last time you were here I think I asked you like how do you break it down the difficulty of these things between like mental and physical and you said It's 100 physical and it's 100 mental But this is 100 physical 100 mental and 100 logistical.

Yeah And 100 like being committed to the telling the story at the same time Yeah, it's like I said, it's the pressure but I understand the position i'm in which is why I want to throw the kitchen sink As it were and try and get the message out there as much as possible and raise as much money It's not just a a point to point thing. It is as you say, it's it's pretty hollywood what we're doing. Yeah, and Yeah, it's been the perfect melting pot i've obviously been doing this since I was what 23 so it's been nine years and Back then I before I did it.

I didn't know what ultra running was and now it's become this This thing that most people now understand and people are doing incredible and crazy things Ironically mark came out when I was running across australia, uh, america mark dowdle did. Yeah. Oh, I didn't know He was one of the only people one of the well There was a few people that came towards the end but he was one of the early guys that came out and then witnessing his journey and Him just running nearly 400 miles in four days.

I don't know if it was is is insane, but he doesn't like you like he's very different from you, but he doesn't fit the mold of like What you think an ultra runner looks like, you know what I mean? He like looks like a linebacker Well, he used to play american football didn't know. Yeah. Yeah, so it's it's interesting but it also shows that How things used everything evolves, right? It's even even you can talk about high rocks how they used to be like the crossfit guys and now like Professional runners are going in and beating all the time So it shows that even even though ultra running has been around for quite a while.

It's now Evolving and changing and different people are doing it which is beautiful and it shows that anyone can do anything back in the day and a marathon was like The peak of human endurance if you knew what an iron man was you'd understand how much bigger that was. Yeah, but now it's like Regular regular people. Yeah, I consider myself a regular person Um are doing these amazing things. So yeah, you have harvey lewis full-time high school teacher You know who's just you know at his what is he 49 now or something like that still like, you know He's the mentor to the next generation but he still kicks their ass most of the time and he does it with a smile on his face and Then you have like mark dowdle coming up, you know under his You know kind of uh example and and acquitting himself with such maturity and poise He's almost like a personal development guru.

Like the way he shows up on social media. He's very empowering and like these are the the this is the new class of athlete like where I can like celebrate social media because he's propagating such a positive message and rachel entrecann the same like You know her wanting to Do it from a place of joy and like like herself when she's crossing the finish line like these are like really powerful important messages that transcend just How insane the athletic performance aspect of it is? Yeah, it's becoming It's becoming more more.

It's being viewed by everyone now and it's good to have these different characters in Uh elevating the sport. Yeah I I mentioned this before so I won't belabor it On the podcast for people who have heard it, but I was at trail con recently and you know There's like a week of panels and like events leading up to western states up in tahoe and a big kind of recurring topic of conversation is like What is the culture of trail running now? Because you have the ogs who are used to it being a certain way a very kind of grounded granola low-key You know no no flash kind of experience And their attachment to that uh As you know, this sport has emerged and like a trail con There's just like it's a it's a commercial operation like every brand is there With booze and all kinds of stuff going on and it's just changed a lot But it's the people that define the culture, right?

You can't you can't dictate what the culture is and you have to allow it to be What it wants to be based upon the people who are like inhabiting it right and it's a different sort of archetype of individual now that is Either ultra curious or kicking ass at the highest level in this sport And it's not one thing you've got the backyard ultras. We have what the kind of things that you do you've got the you know, hella citabase and you've got like the you know, the the the The kind of gold standard races like bad water and moab and etc like there's a such a diverse of like experiences and offerings.

Yeah, it keeps it interesting that way as well, and that's why you can have different athletes from different backgrounds being good at different things. I like the balance. I like that the old stead are still there that want it that way, and I think as an athlete or speaking to ultra running truly, you shouldn't always be doing something and it being filmed and doing all this other stuff like the experience is the most beautiful thing. Obviously, a lot of the things I do are filmed, but the moments where I get most back from it are when I'm in the middle of nowhere on my own, seven miles away from my crew, and I see something magical or have a memory of my mom from the past.

So you still go through those experiences, and yes, if you're raising money or now it becomes a profession for people and money, like you have to obviously offer viewership to people if they want it, but I think there always needs to be like a bit of both. But if you're not connected to that kind of spiritual experience of doing this, you're not gonna last. If you're doing it to have somebody follow you around with a camera, you're not gonna make it. It's too hard. It is too hard.

You need a reason beyond yourself to really be doing it. I think if it was completely ego-driven, unless you are one of the sickest athletes out there and I'm gonna be the best, but as our conversations have unled and having read your book and Dean's book, it was so interesting to me at the beginning, which is why I attach myself to it so extremely, how a lot of people that get into ultra have been through some kind of trauma in their life and it's a vehicle for dealing with it because obviously that trauma never truly goes away, but you can kind of ride the world a little easier.

So yeah, it is an interesting sport that's continuously to change, and I also think that all these records that are being sent now, like the younger generation are getting into it now, so give it 10, 15 years, whatever any of us have done. It's gonna be like smoked out of the water. I think we're just at the beginning. It's super interesting, but when you look at Max Jolis splits at Badwater, I can't even get my head around it. Like he's literally running like 7.30, eight minute miles for like most of that race, and he never walked once.

Yeah, he's a great guy. He's a friend of mine as well, and I've spoke to him since. He's the coolest. And he's cool as fuck, right? He might be the only guy who can out-mog you. Yeah, no, I agree with that. Tattoos are crazy. A surf, a skater, a surfer dude. He looks like Chris Cornell. Yeah, I mean, you know, he's strikingly handsome, and the way that he creates these documentary pieces are like, they're really beautiful. Like they're executed at such a high production level and keen sense of storytelling.

Yeah, and he has a lot to do with that as well. In our conversations, he's- Because he comes from a design background. Like he cares about the aesthetics of what he's doing. Yeah, he's a gangster, and he's proven it. 100%. He's proven it. And I like, we had a conversation the other day, and I was obviously congratulating him on Badwater, and he's like, yeah, it's great to shut all those people up online because obviously he wins Moab, King of Moab, and then goes through some races where he DNFs, and everyone gets on your back because of social media now.

You're not the guy you were. This was a one-off, and then goes and absolutely smokes Badwater. Yeah, like uncorks the performance of a lifetime. Incredible, but also it shows that there's so many variables in ultra. When you're running over 100 miles, or even 100 miles, there's so many things that can go wrong at all points. You're at altitude, it's hot. You have 20 mile, 25 mile stints where you don't see anyone. So to be perfect and to win every single time is really not feasible in this sport, and it shows that he went and put the work in.

He did a lot of the heat training stuff, which I've been speaking with him about, and yeah, the flowers came out. Did you meet him when you did Moab? I met him just before that, but yeah, the same year, because that was, what was it, two years ago now, maybe three. Here's the thing about you, Will. On a surface level, and in certain ways in the way that you show up on social media, you're living this kind of aspirational, jet-setting lifestyle of luxury. It's like Dubai, London, Paris, Berlin, New York, five-star hotels, and brunch, and fancy dinners, and cold plunges, and hanging out at the beach, or on the Amalfi Coast.

There's this polarity. There is that aspect of you that is unapologetically enjoying their life to the absolute fullest, and then there's the nose-to-the-grindstone, hard-working, humble-servant aspect of you. You live your life in the same way an athlete trains, on the polarities. It's like zone one and two, or zone five and six. You're never in this gray zone. But I think with that, you are kind of courting some controversy in the ultra-running community, but I only know you as the humble, good friend who has a real, like a deep spirit, and a deep care for the people that you care about.

And I don't know that that always translates, necessarily, and so I'm sure you're on the receiving end of a fair amount of antagonism online, which you seem to weather with a smile, for the most part. But I would imagine it weighs on you. And I think, in talking about Max, this is demonstrative of one of your finest qualities, which is that you're a lifelong learner. Like, you're not somebody who's like, I got it figured out. You're not operating from a place of ego. When you first got interested in learning about the ultra-world, one of the first people you called was Robbie, because you saw him online and what he had done by running across the country, and now he's one of your closest friends, and you just came from Colorado.

Like, you basically cohabitate with this guy. You go on these fancy trips, and then you go to this really small town in Colorado, and you ground yourself, and you get the training done, and you're with, like, your best friend. And you reach out to Max because you realize there's so much you can learn from somebody like that, especially with the heat training stuff, and how can I leverage what he decided to do in his training that would benefit me on this upcoming expedition? Yeah, yeah, life is a big disparity for me, but I think I've always wanted to make the most of things, and then that really got heightened when I lost my mom of the whole thing of, like, tomorrow's not promised.

So there's part of me that's like, I wanna go and experience and do everything I can, but then there's also a part of me that loves the grind, loves actually having some level of day-to-day practices that stay the same. But yeah, all of it is based around the loss and trying to make the most of things. And I love everywhere other than the middle. I like being at Moab, doing a 15-minute nap on the side of a trail, having not slept for, like, 32 hours, and then, obviously, I like being in the opulence and luxury of things.

And it's fun. In the bathrobe, eating your poached eggs. It's fun to habitat, like, both worlds, whatever you're interested in. I've always been interested in these things, and now somehow figured out how to balance them. Sure, you might say I'd be a better ultra-athlete if I lived in the same place and trained all year, but my thirst for life isn't just in one realm. I love doing that, I love exploring that world, but also, yeah, I wanna see what different cities are around the world. You're not interested in being saintly or being perceived as some kind of pure role model.

No, and I don't feel like people should look up to me as a role model either, but one thing I would say is what I might promote is being yourself in any way, shape, or form that you get to do that. You don't just hide and try and be in one box. If you're interested in something that isn't particularly normal in whatever world you inhabit, then I think that's a good thing. You can connect with more people the more sides of you that you show, and somehow you can get more opportunities doing it like that as well.

You are always unapologetically yourself, and I think that's a strength. Whether people like how you show up or not, you're not saying sorry for being who you are, and you're just standing in your power and in your strength, and I think that that is attractive, and you're unflappable in terms of if people have opinions about how you're living your lifestyle, that's about them, right? But I think it creates a curiosity in the public. I go on Chris Williamson's podcast, and he's, it's not like he's super into ultra running, and he's like, what do you think of Will Gouge?

This is like people wanna know, and I know you, I don't know you super well, but I know you well enough to know the real person, and where I think people get confused about what you're really about. Yeah, I'm a small town kid, son of a nurse and a carpenter. Like, we always had food on the table. There was no opulence there, but I just always, I always saw people doing amazing things and had this feeling, and I was like, why can't it be me? I've met, obviously, a lot of interesting people.

Like, to me, you're a superstar to me, but when I've met them, I've seen them on the human side rather than what they've done and what they've achieved. If I meet any kind of celebrity, I actually feel a bit sorry for them, because even in my small experience of people knowing who I am when I'm out and about sometimes, it makes me uncomfortable, so I feel some level of, not pity, but some level of understanding for that. The most interesting person I've ever met where I was kind of like, wow, what the fuck, was Felix Beaumangarta, the gentleman that jumped out of space for Red Bull, unfortunately passed away, I think it was last year.

Yeah, not that long ago. But for me, he is one of one. He's the only person to have done that incredible thing, free-falling from outer space from a balloon. So that blew my mind. But yeah, people, I like to meet them on a human level, and you might not like some of the things I do, and I understand that, but I think there's more people supporting than there are trying to talk it down, and I'm okay, I'm not hurting anyone. I think I'm putting out good things towards the world.

I'm trying to be myself, I'm not trying to hide or put a mask on at any point. So if you like it, great, if you don't, I also respect that, and that's totally fine. Yeah, fine, fuck off. Sometimes it's fuck off, sometimes it's just like, yeah, whatever. I wanna circle back to that in a minute, but you said that you have this kind of reflex, like why not me? Yeah. How do you have that, what did you do to cultivate that, or what about your upbringing contributed to you having that empowered sense of self, versus an inner monologue that's like, I could never do that?

I'm not really sure. I think it's just because most people, before they achieve something, are not famous or don't have anything. They've grown up the same as we've grown up as children or whatever, obviously in different circumstances, but something within them made them great, and a lot of the time, it's just like a mindset. People talk about manifesting, putting things out there, thinking about it and attaching themselves to it, and then it's more likely to happen. It's just always been within me in that sense. Not that I'm particularly talented across a whole bunch of things, everything for me is just like, can I graft more than someone else to get where I wanna be, which is inherently what running thousands of miles involves.

So, yeah, I can't say there was a key moment where I thought of that, it's just kind of blossomed in me from an early age. On the subject of these challenges, and maybe even more acutely, this upcoming challenge being 100% mental, is there a rigor or a certain practice where you're consciously trying to cultivate your mental toughness to handle this, or how do you think about that and prepare yourself? I have the most simple phrase of all time, can I take another step? The answer's always yes, because it doesn't matter, unless you've broken your leg or something has gone terribly wrong, you can always take one more step forward, in which you can apply to any part of your life.

But having seen my own mom fight for her life, I was there when she passed away, the thing of seeing someone hold onto life is quite insane. It's not a nice thing to experience, but it shows you what the human body is capable of, even right towards the very end. So I realize that I am not even close to that point. I'm not taking my last breath, so the act of taking one more step, even though it might hurt and often does over and over again, I can still do it.

It's a very ultra-realistic view of the position I'm in. Well, it's basically breaking it down to a James Clear atomic habits thing. You don't have to worry about the New York City Marathon when you're in the middle of Ohio. You just have to worry about what you're doing right now, and can you take that next step? And that applies broadly to every aspect of life. It's not a running thing. No, it's not. People think it's about whether they're considering their own relationship with change or transformation or trying to lose 10 pounds or whatever it is.

I think there's not enough emphasis on, the only time you can actually do anything whatsoever is right now. Yeah. And we're just thinking about, how are we gonna do that thing tomorrow? Or I should have done this other thing better yesterday. Yeah, we love putting it off, and we also love setting the intention maybe the day before or the hour before. And then you have that reaction in your brain where you get the good feedback like you've already done it. Like you already did it. Yeah.

And that happens to me still. I still do these things. I'm never perfect through normal life. But when you force yourself into a situation where you're doing a challenge like this, there is no way out other than to finish. You don't, you can't put it off by, sometimes I actually. No, it's this profound confrontation with self. I mean, that's like the real, that's the juice of the whole ultra experience. Like you cannot escape your own weaknesses and whatever your mind is telling. Like you are just like, it's right smack in your face.

Yeah. You gotta fucking grapple with that. You are in every second. It's a true serum. But the irony is when I do these things, I still feel lazy. So to people watching, there's no like enlightenment towards the end or during it thinking you're fucking brilliant or whatever. What do you mean? How could you possibly feel lazy? I feel like I'm either not running fast enough or I'll get into an aid stop and I might stay two minutes too long. But there is, I think it's because you're really in fight or flight, it's a very highly stressful situation to put yourself into.

And that's why after I do these things, outside of the physical strain it puts on your body, all my systems are down when I finish these things. After Australia I was sleeping for 16 hours a day for a week. So you really do go through a lot, but yeah, the feeling of lazy or I could have gone faster or I could have gone further is always there, but it's then also a driving force. So I wouldn't say it's inherently bad, but it also kind of levels the playing field or at least gives people an insight into that when you maybe do these things that you still don't feel like a king of the world.

A huge part of the success or failure equation with this is going to be about how efficiently you're going to be able to recover in between these marathons, right? So I imagine there's a whole strategy around this and a team that is going to be joining you to attend to this. What does that look like? This is literally on the stopwatch too. You have an hour before, okay, we're going to get on this plane. It's a 30 minute flight. We're going to land this and you're going to have to get out and get right to it, right?

And so what can we do in that period of time to get you ready? I'm laughing because it's like formula one. It's a lot less than people maybe consider. I think with recovery in general, I think this is just like a marketing thing. It's like nothing is going to help me that much. It's like supplements. They're a supplement to what already should be good. So I've never had a physio in anything I've done. I've never had like a team doctor. Part of the reason for that is I feel like they're either going to tell me something I don't want to know, like something's actually wrong.

And in my head, if I don't know what's wrong, I just have to push through, it hurts, whatever. Or they're going to take up too much time by massaging me for 20 minutes. So there has to be a happy medium with that though. Yeah, we're quite a circus. If things start to go wrong, I don't have a doctor but like Robbie and Jason having done these things before know how to strap an ankle. So there's that. And then really the only things I use consistently is like the Normatec boots, the compression sleeves.

I think they're great for moving blood flow around. Even when I'm in ultra races, if I don't have them, like an aid stop or whatever, if it's 60 miles in, I'll put my legs in the air and you can feel like the blood draining from them and you'll massage them. So a similar kind of thing, but I'm going to have to learn how to nap quite well again. Because like you say, when I've got the three in a day, some of them I'm finishing at like four o'clock in the morning and then getting in a car and driving two or three hours and then it's like, okay, get out and do another one.

And when your nervous system is that jacked up, you'd think it would be easy to fall asleep after these things. It's actually quite difficult. It is. But also I think the experiences of what I've done before have made it easier. It's definitely a learned practice of being able to kind of sleep-ish on cue. So I'll be listening to binaural beats and stuff like that when I'm in an RV or maybe if I can on a commercial flight, I don't know. But yeah, sleep is king. Fortunately, like I've said before, there's these little buffers where there's some times where I might have like a seven hour window so I could sleep properly.

But on these events, Australia averaged, I think it was just over five hours a night for 34 nights. And what's the fueling strategy? I eat whole foods as much as possible. You think it's just like a grab of calories in any way, shape or form you can or using things like gels, but they all have like a, well, your gut basically has a shelf life of how much it can tolerate of less than healthy things or gels, for example, like I'll use them for a marathon but I don't feel great afterwards.

So yeah, I'll probably be burning depending on if it's a two or three marathon day from about 6,000 to probably 9,000 calories a day. So it's getting fuel as frequently as possible, especially on the journeys in between. Usually I see the crew every seven miles and have what you consider probably a meal, even if it's a shake. But on this, because I have the five hour window, we have to kind of reimagine that. I will see the crew probably every seven miles. We'll do the three miles first with everyone that wants to come down and then seven, seven to finish.

So I'll be probably lightly fueling on those bits and then a conscious effort in the travel between to pack on as many calories as I can. One of the things you're doing is heat training. Max has you like queued up on how to do that. Obviously his experience preparing for bad water paid off tremendously and he's this huge proponent of it. So you've made these videos where you're putting on the same like heat suit, but you're doing it at altitude. I got influenced. You got influenced by an influencer, but he's so handsome.

He's great. Yeah. So how can you not be influenced by him? Yeah. And the proof's in the pudding. Sure. So, you know, you got the core suit on and then you got the hoodie on top of it. You're running at altitude doing this. How long have you been doing this? Have you seen benefits from this or what is the experience and what exactly are you doing? Like layout, like exactly how this is different from normal training and what you're trying to accomplish. So I've done two sessions so far because I actually had a call with a thermo, I don't know, an expert in heat training that was part of the core team.

So I had a call with them, I think it was the start of last week and they were like introduce it slowly, but I'll be doing two to three heated sessions a week of 50 minutes. And then I'll be doing two passive ones, which means being in a sauna. So the idea is you run five, six miles first, so your core temperature rises, and then you put the suit on and the hoodie and everything else. And then you go out for up to 50 minutes, literally cooking.

But the experience, I was actually surprised. But you gotta work up to that. Yeah. You can't just go out and do 50 minutes. The first one I did though, I did seven miles easy and then put it on. And then I did 45 minutes and I was a bit sort of dizzy towards the end, but it felt good. The thing is being in Colorado at that altitude is it's super, super dry. So I think the experience of me doing it down here in California, I'm going to do one on Santa Monica beach tomorrow, will be very different.

So we're going to continue to speak to them, but I do my own training program for this. We have a week of, I need to get to a hundred miles one way or another. But within that, there's two heat sessions and there is a speed session or tempo. Because I need to be able to have the leg carry over to be doing back to back to et cetera, five hour marathons. It's quite slow considering, but to do 50 in a row. But the idea is to make the body more resilient so that it can function as your core body temperature escalates.

And so in these sessions, do you have that, like the core thing that goes on your chest strap is measuring your body temperature and you're also paying attention to how dehydrated you're becoming. That informs like your electrolyte and fueling strategy. If you know how much sweat loss you're experiencing. And this also is going to depend upon like humidity versus dryness. Actually it's pretty humid out here in LA, like incredibly, it's usually never humid. So I would take advantage of the weird humidity that we're experiencing here because, you know, heat in bad water, which is very dry, is going to be different than heat in Athens, Georgia, you know, where it's just humid as all get out, right.

And how does your body respond to those different types of heat? Yeah. And I'm going to obviously be going through all of it considering we're doing it October to the very beginning of November. It's cooling down. Yeah. You're not. This is not a bad water experience. It's not. But in talking to Max as well, he said, even if I was going to do like a cold race, I'd still implement it. And the whole thing of like heat training is increasing blood plasma. And also it teaches your body to basically regulate its temperature better.

So your core temperature isn't rising as quickly, and then it's also cooling down quicker after that. So that improves recovery and then in turn improves everything cardio wise. You can train again quicker afterwards, etc. And then if you're in heat, then you're going to deal with it a lot better. So if you crush this challenge on the heels of Max Jolliffe rewriting the record book at Badwater, I can see this being a catalyst for a whole new trend of people like exploring heat training. Like people have always done this to one degree or another, like old school Badwater athletes would put a treadmill in the sauna and run.

But now this is just adding more science into it and experimentation. Yeah, that's what was kind of interesting to me. Like you've always seen people do it. You've seen Rocky Balboa famous scene, grey sweatpants, sweating through it. So it's always been a thing. But like you say, there's now a level of scientific and detail to it. You get like a heat adaptation score with this core device as well. So it's interesting. And like we said earlier, like how much better athletes are going to become in this space that has been traditionally underfunded, undervalued.

People have just kind of done it in an exploratory way. Now it's really becoming professional. The most important resource we have is time. And we need to really understand how important that is because most of us are wasting too much of it. What do you think, Andrew? Well, shoot, man, we just checked our screen time and apparently I'm spending six and a half hours a day staring at what Hasan Minhaj calls my rectangle of sadness. I'm embarrassed to say mine is even worse. This is a real problem.

We need to begin to really value our time. And this is what the mission is behind Noble Mobile. Am I correct? Yes. Noble Mobile is the first wireless carrier that will actually pay you to use your phone less. There are a billion dollar companies that want to maximize engagement to maximize their own revenue and profit. And who's benefiting from that? Them, not us. We can point our fingers at them. We can blame them or we can do something about it. Yes. Noble Mobile. Check us out at NobleMobile.com.

You can switch in five minutes and it's only $10 for your first month. If you use the code Rich Roll. That's right. Take back your time, your attention and get that money. And they'll pay you for using your phone less. Yes. Pay you to do the thing you know you want to do anyway. Yes, sir. Andrew Yang. This episode is brought to you by Whoop. To celebrate turning 60 in a handful of weeks, I am planning to guide a disabled athlete at the New York City Marathon, which is quite the leap from where I was not long ago, slowly recovering from spinal fusion surgery.

And to be ready, I have plenty of hard work ahead of me. But I need to do it smartly, meaning I need to check my ego to prevent it from writing a check that my still very much healing spine simply can't cash. And this is where Whoop becomes my essential training partner, preventing me from over strain because I always want to do too much. So I best absorb the training load that I'm putting my body through. And Whoop does this by providing feedback on how my sleep and my recovery are trending against the strain.

So each day's decision gets made from evidence instead of some old habit or from insecurity or anxiety. Push today, back off tomorrow, trust the process. Getting to that start line healthy really is the achievement for me, and Whoop is how I protect it. Whatever your own start line is, it can be a race, season, or just a stretch of life that you want to show up for, that awareness changes everything. So check it out. Go to join.whoop.com slash roll for one month free of Whoop. You've run across America, you've run across Australia, you did Moab, you've done a lot of things.

You've worked your way up to earning your right to embark upon what you're about to do. How has your training changed or evolved? What have you learned from the mistakes you've made in the past or how you've approached these other races in terms of how you're preparing for this? Or has it always just been like, I do this thing and it works for me? Now, to begin with, I just would totally make it up. And to a certain degree, I'm making it up now, but it's a lot more informed than it was before.

It was just about high mileage and doing strength training, which I've always done. And I think is a key if you're a 10k runner or doing ultramarathons, like you need to have a level of strength protection around the joints, etc. So I'm just a lot more informed with doing these heat sessions, doing speed sessions when you think I'm running over a thousand miles, you think speed wouldn't be that important, but I need turnover. When my legs are thrashed, I still need to be able to run.

You're still doing track workouts, even though you're unlikely to run faster than a 10 minute per race for this entire thing. So walk me through the wisdom of that. Why do that at all? It's all about turnover. The best ultrarunners will still be doing speed work. You can't just go out and plod 10 minute miles every day and do high mileage. You're going to get more out of doing less miles, but having some specific sessions in there that are tempo or speed than you are doing 140 miles at the same pace.

You need different inputs, different stimuli. Last weekend we hiked Shavano, one of the 14ers in Colorado with Robbie, and that was a 10 mile experience of going extremely slowly. That's the kind of feeling I'm going to be having on day 14, where I've run a few hundred miles already and my legs feel extremely tacked. So how do you replicate that in a training setting and then also be ready for it when it comes in the reality of the challenge? What is the balance of strength training to traditional run training and how does it change as you get closer to the starting line of a big event?

I always do one session a week, even with the mileage quite high like it is now. So I'm doing over 100 miles every week and then the two weeks before I will switch and do two, maybe even three sessions a week while I'm in that kind of taper period. So I'm trying to load up on strength and also I'll be eating a lot more so I don't go into it Sort of emaciated or whatever because I need something to lose when I'm on that star. Yeah, you need that But you also don't want to be logging around Unnecessary extra body weight, you know, the big shoulders and chest that are only just gonna get tight and demand, you know, like resources Yeah, I haven't trained upper body this entire year.

Not at all. I've done one push You're a genetic freak then because your physique is insane. Yeah I do a lot of core work and they'll be like a lot of like farmers carries and things like that So I'm still I'm still hot gripping and holding weight in my in my arms, but it's it's kind of a frustrating thing I think when I'm older, I'll love it because you know being strong and stuff is great for longevity But through my running career is actually quite fucking annoying I've always got a big chest and things that actually do like a winter ball And then you taper off of that as you progress your running volume and stay enough in contact with it so that you're maintaining, you know adequate strength for the purpose of You know ultra running performance.

No, no I could say like my my years are often geared around like a specific event or a specific race Yeah, when I finish just hold on a second So what just so we're clear when will says that like my life is oriented around a specific event or a race Most of these things are events a quote-unquote events These events are the Monaco Grand Prix Paris Fashion Week New York Fashion Week the Venice Biennale, you know, like this is this is what we're talking about, right?

I was talking about races specifically, but okay, but yes, there's a lifestyle event piece Yeah, and then there's the racing event piece. Yeah, usually I do something big every two years So this opportunity came up after Australia, which I finished last May You've completely destroyed afterwards like I took the rest of the year off didn't really run too much and then immediately got into a marathon block for London this year What did you go you were trying to go to 45? Yeah, I did a 247 something which was I think a 11 minute PV or something so it was good but that was also like a nice lead-in to then really up in the miles because I had had that seven eight months of kind of doing nothing other than Enjoying myself and drinking and then straight back into the serious stuff But yeah, my years are just like constantly changing So I don't feel like I have any kind of real program of maintenance.

I like running so I got under I like going to the gym. So I do I don't want to be overweight. I want to be able to move freely So there's there's always some element of that in my practice, but there is no like clear intention until I'm like, okay I'm doing mob in eight months. How are we going to do a training camp for that? hmm in doing a forensic analysis of this route and all the Logistics that go into this and the the just very tiny margin of error I mean, I think it's easy to say like well, we have a four-day buffer, but like You know Maybe you have like a two-day buffer who knows you know what I mean, but there has to be Specific pain points along that route like when you look at it, where do you see?

Like the most constriction like oh that one's gonna be really tough to pull off. It's when I do the the three two three There's there's one example where I've got a triple double then triple close together Mm-hmm So that will be that would be the biggest test because I can't I don't know if you've got the States in front of you There so the pinch moment is day nine You're gonna do three and then you're gonna do two and then you're gonna do three again. Yeah See to me what looks very difficult is October 30 So at the very tail end of this thing, you're gonna do Massachusetts Vermont and New Hampshire in one day.

Yeah And you're gonna be going into the New York City Marathon just absolutely tanked. Yeah, it's yeah It's it's interesting because I am due to arrive in New York. I think at 3 a.m So The race starts a few hours after that. You're gonna go right from the airstrip to the starting line, basically Yeah, I think we do. I think we drive that section though. Oh you do. Yeah, but either way It's it's gonna be interesting because when I did the similar thing 48 30 48 marathons 48 counties of England 30 days.

I finished the London Marathon and I PB'd I did a 306 So that's my PB. That's where you just realize the body is just a magical instrument Yeah, it's almost like the body is Saying to you like oh now I finally get it at the end like I figured it out Yeah, you know and and and it's as capable of astounding things. I mean, I remember when I did epic five which is just a you know, kind of Small example of what you're doing like the fifth day.

I felt the best. Yeah It doesn't make it doesn't make physiological sense But a lot of people that do these things get fitter During it like iron cowboy the first few days your body's like, yeah, but he was absolutely falling apart at the end He was pulling apart and it was that was extreme was a close call there for a minute Yeah But it is funny how like the the first few days or I've had experience of the first nine days across Australia Which were absolutely horrendous your body's in shock.

Like, you know, what are we doing when you've done it before? It's a little bit less shock, but then afterwards there's like this It's like your shoulders drop and everything becomes less stiff and it's okay. This is what we do now Mind body everything seems to be working together in a in a beautiful more fluid way and of course you have like bumps along the road, but it's incredible when you Force your body through your mind and spirit to do something How eventually it's like, okay, and you you work together I have this crazy thing where I talk to my body parts when I'm doing these things I like thank my feet at the end of the day or Tell me more about this or if my it actually happened when I did John I got Salon's end Phil Griffin who?

who filmed the whole thing told me about a practice he did and I just I just took it in my own way and Whenever anything hurt like it would definitely be like hip flexes or whatever I'd be thanking like the quads or the glutes me like thank you for taking the strain the hip flexes a Have gratitude for that and I'd always be like towards the end like don't worry We've only got a few more days left I need you to like give me everything for these few days and then it's massage time horizontal.

We're gonna be great. But Yeah, it's interesting to disassociate your own body from like your your mind But there are different there's conversations always happening But it was it was always a beautiful practice for me that I've continued to do never really spoken about that much It's just a natural thing. I've done. I'd I do really think it helps. It's like a gratitude practice I mean you can do that with respect to your inner monologue Also, if you start to hear that voice saying you can stop it's okay Yeah, it'll still be good and you can be like, thank you for your input Yeah, you know, but like I'll take it into consideration But like right now like, you know, I I know what you're trying to do You're trying to protect me but like it's just not necessary right now and like I'll I'll check back Your point your point has been raised.

I've heard it. Yes right now. We're not gonna go with your point of view, right? I know you have my best interest at heart, you know, yeah, like I appreciate you Yeah, rather than like shut the fuck up. Yeah, you know, I sometimes do that too. Mm-hmm I think I was necessary. I kind of get inspiration from all forms. Mm-hmm. Well, I'm angry when I'm happy there's the Physical like pain points along this way like you like backing up these You know these these three marathon days, but there's also logistical pain points I would imagine where the margin of error is very small Like if we don't finish this and be here by this time, like we're gonna miss this flight Yeah, we're not gonna be able to get to the next place in time Where we have enough time to actually accomplish what we need to do tomorrow you know and that's where the precision and the military kind of like focus on keeping you on track is gonna be important because You're just trying to do the thing somebody's got to keep you on the rails to make sure that like you're on Schedule the whole time.

Yeah, there's like no moment where you can just kick back Because it's a domino effect on the rest. You know, you you threaten the entire operation Yeah, I could you fall behind could easily can't really catch up. No, it's pretty much impossible But that's also why it's so amazing. And the only reason we can do it is because of Goodwin's influence and their help They'll have people off the scene We've got we're gonna have a captain in every single state that can accept like things we needed in the in the build-up So they might get sent some food They'll get sent some like merchandise that they can give up but there's a Goodwin employee managing each and every state So we have someone on on the ground ready to do stuff and these like good.

This is what they do Logistics is their business right AI but human as well But everything is funneling into being as seamless and as professional as possible. And if things go wrong, they'll Hopefully I'm pretty sure I have absolutely They will they will figure out or something. Yeah. Yeah, so it's very everything is basically live in time going on all the time Do you have contingency plans like okay, let's say like some some unforeseen variable interferes with this We're not going to make this flight. We're not going to do this So there is like a plan B that takes you on a whole different route.

They have accomplished this on time They have some other some other Plans like a plan B plan C, etc. I just haven't asked to see them I don't need that in my head. I'm doing it this way. We're going plan a it's gonna work I'll run faster Etc, etc. So and this time you have the Guinness Book of World Records On board like there's buy-in like you've appraised them that this is what you're attempting to do It's been vetted like you're you're operating on a different level professionally in terms of like how you're tracking this to Immunize yourself against some of the attacks that you've had to weather in the past around your performance, which is all fair enough So Guinness have made it an official Challenge or record that I can do there is still some stuff.

We're doing with the licensing, but it's all moving in the right direction Actually recently I just I actually got the FKT across Australia, right? I wanted to talk about that I mean, this is the lead into that. There's a lot of you know, I know that you've suffered I know that Robby has taken this really hard. Just all the criticism That you were on the receiving end of like in your in your past attempts, I mean with crossing America With you know, how well are you actually tracking it?

This guy's showing up on the course We talked about this the last time you were on the show People questioning your heart rate data when you were running across, Australia. There's countless Reddit threads about this and a lot of discourse You know and a lot of acrimony and a lot of questioning so where are you at with that now? What is it that you want to say about all of that? Well firstly the burden of proof seems to just keep going up and up and up because of Social media and people seeing it back in the day when someone ran across the u.s And got the record there was nothing to do with heart rate if you wanted to do a Guinness World Record You had witness statements So The the burden of a proof has improved or or gone up But these the thing Guinness FKT they have their regulations their professionals They look at things in the most professional way and they are the gold standard between them so some random people online saying my heart rate is too low and doesn't match up to me is just It's because they can't believe it because they can't do it themselves or they have some kind of ill feeling towards me Because of like you've said the kind of the life I live but then also the levels of athleticism I can go to So we've always tried to do what we thought was best or the most when America happened That's when it really like cranked up.

I was like, you know, I didn't know and he was that guy who who like flew in Well cockerel. Mm-hmm. Yeah, he had an issue with me because his friend Bruce Tuller had the British record No one gives a fuck who's the fastest Brit to run across America It's who's the fastest person to run across America. We just use that to make it. He was very committed To maligning you. Yeah. Yeah. He wants to see my downfall and where is he at with all of this now?

I still be messaging a bit about what we're doing He had a problem with me saying that it was then gonna be 24 days instead of 20 Like I had to stick to what I said originally. It's like we were still planning So we we try and do the best we can I've like across Australia had a live tracker on me at all times I've obviously got the watch. So it's like If anyone wants to turn up at any point and see where I am Which a lot of people over a hundred people did across Australia They can do that But what what level do I have to go to and take on expense of proving that we're doing this thing by live-streaming or?

Inviting a judge out that I have to pay to be there for 34 days. Like it's it's mental. Mm-hmm like live tracker You know all the Garmin data maybe, you know backup garments or whatever you're using to track your Metrics and all of that. I mean, is there anything more that you would need? Like I don't know what the What the expectations are with with the watch Like I don't know what the what the expectations are with guinness and and everybody else like what is it that they want to see you do that would Sufficiently calm them down.

Well, those guys those guys are all okay with it Fkt and guinness are fine with what I've what I've applied for the information. I've given like fkt will look at the the cadence along with the the like My splits etc. And they're like all of that matches up exactly as it should do Your wrist heart rate data might be skewed but when you're wearing something for 16 hours a day running every single day Is it going to be totally accurate? Do I need to wear an ecg when I do this thing?

So we have complete I mean the chest strap data can Be at times unreliable. Also. I was on the treadmill this morning and I noticed like oh my my heart rate This is this is not right like, you know based on perceived effort like what it was telling me I was like This is I need a new heart rate monitor or something. This is like all over the place Sometimes you'll move your wrist strap or I'll like my wrist is always tremendously unreliable Yeah, the thing is it's like what fucking more do you want from us like we're broadcasting it all out there You can see where we are at all times for America.

We're obviously taking it to another level I will wear two watches so we have like a backup Strava account that's you can see that I'm definitely doing the distance and Because it's so construed of doing a marathon distance in each state. I need two forms of Distance and then obviously whichever watch is the furthest so one might be at like twenty six point two But the other one might be at twenty six point one So I'll go to use the other one and then and then continue to go Like I said, we've got an open door policy for the first three miles of every single run so people can come down The course is a final 5k also, right?

I think we're just going to do the opening 5k, but then all of my routes are going to be visible as well that I'm taking and I'm gonna have the live tracker on Me so at any point you can pull up and check if I'm running All right. So what do you really want to say to the haters out there? Just fucking get a life really. I mean what I would also say is thank you Because all of their attention has only just built into everything I'm doing So the more attention I get the more people saying like well It's actually a very small small section of people that say I fake things But it all goes towards the machine of this being professional me doing bigger and better things me having the opportunity to do what I'm about to do so Inadvertently, even though you're trying to take me down.

You're actually raising me up even more. Yeah, it's funny in the comments when you see like people that I know or just Strangers that are like backing me up the straw the Strava ones across Australia were Insane, do you engage with this or you're just you know, kind of vicariously? I don't have the time I'm running 16 hours a day and then I have to sleep as soon as I can afterwards So what I mean in the aftermath and you're kind of going through it. No, not really I don't really look at look back at a whole load of things like I never watch The videos of what I've done before I recently started watching the America thing gangsters I haven't watched this since I did it.

I've never listened back to a podcast. I've done for me It's like moments in time that I was in and is beautiful and I enjoy it But the whole thing of looking back, I don't know Maybe if I think I'll do it eventually when I'm older and I'm maybe out of this world to see what I've done and how It's shaped who I've become but Yeah the day-to-day it's like I'm I'm living in today and also seeing what's next yeah Is there a sense of anxiety as you get closer to the date or is it just enthusiasm like on this?

mantra of like one more step Like trying to break it down into like, okay What do I have to do today obviously alleviate some of that stress and pressure, but it's so daunting I would imagine you know, like you might be waking up in the middle of the night occasionally saying like what did I get? Myself into this is insane Yeah, no. No, I don't I'm I'm excited It's like it's an opportunity to do something great to see all 50 states any point in your life is cool I'm obviously not going to see a whole lot.

It might be five or six hours, but It's it's such a big opportunity that who knows if it will ever be done again Somehow I'm the man that's gonna be going out and doing it There's a level of privilege. There is a level of pressure behind it because I'm Representing like stand up to cancer and I want to do a good job for them and raise as much money as we can I'm always representing my mom. So there's an element of that as well But the overriding feeling is one of joyous curiosity of of what's to come I love adventure in all forms and this is Pretty pinnacle of what I've done.

So yeah, I mean, I think that's that's The best mindset to be in right? To be able to enjoy it or appreciate it while it's happening Yeah, and not be fixated on like crossing the finish line in New York City Yeah, and also I know it's gonna be terrible at times, but that's also why I do it And this is what you're signing up for. Yeah, that's what that's what you want like to go through something hard and to get out the other side is the ultimate goal of most things and The feeling of being worthy or earning something through hard work for me is Is is amazing so I get to do that again in those really dark moments.

It's like how do I get out of that? Do I learn something do I go back on something? I've I've done before But it's always a test and you're only as good as your last day or in this case like like your last marathon like nothing Before it matters. Nothing matters after it when I'm in it It's do I have it do I have the dog in me today to to get the to get it done? And then we'll do tomorrow tomorrow Setting aside the philanthropic aspect of this cancer awareness and raising money for research and care, etc And understanding your disinterest in being considered any kind of like role model You are at the same time like stewarding a message around human potential and capability So outside of the cancer aspect of this like what is it?

What is what is the message that you want people to receive who are going to follow along on this? Like what what is it that you want them to feel and believe as a result of you tackling such a difficult challenge? I just I want them to be less scared I think a lot of us move through life with fear of losing something not being enough and A lot of the time fear stops us from from chasing our dreams or chasing our goals So I'm just trying to be a voice for I'm I'm gonna go and do this thing.

It's the outcome is not Guaranteed there are so many variables and so many things that could go wrong But I'm still going to go into it with Like a level of confidence that I can get this done because I'm putting my mind to it There's there's so much of me invested in this That we can do way bigger things than we ever thought of Like Sam from a small town in the middle of England This conversation right now was not part of my bingo card and basically 95% of the rest of my life wasn't either so Yeah, go and chase something.

It doesn't have to be running but do it without fear And it's not like you came up as a runner. You were a rugby player. Yeah running came later in life and It came as a way of managing your your grief Honestly, it wasn't like I'm gonna become a runner and become this competitive athlete It's just that's what it served you for at that time and it was a natural outgrowth It wasn't like I'm gonna get into this and then eight years from now I mean, this is what I'm gonna be doing.

Like I think people think that Someone like yourself or people that are achieving at a high level in in in their respective discipline Made a plan, you know long ago and whiteboard it out the whole thing and they're just like in lockstep with that plan and maybe that occurs with some people but I think more often than not when it's inspired by Some kind of genuine emotion you're just kind of following that and you're making space for These magical things to come into your life. So it's more about an openness than it is about goal-setting necessarily Yeah, I'd agree that hundred percent.

There was no there was no plan when I got into it. I never saw past Running John O'Grady's lands end and then after that it gave me like a bit of confidence and maybe I could explore this more Which led up to 4830 which led to the the US which led to Australia, etc. Etc. So Yeah, I think it's it's not being closed off to what the world is doing because the world is always changing Everything is changing together and Yeah, everything I do is explorative.

Hmm. I Love the relationship that you have with Robbie Yeah So I want to hear more about what that relationship is like and and what role he plays in your life I actually had quite an emotional chat with him I think it was before Moab and I basically said to him and I was I was kind of crying when I said it I needed to get it across of like how important he is to me. I Said I lost I lost my mom in The January and I was I'd lost such a huge part of my life There was a get there was a gaping hole and then I truly feel like she sent Robbie to me as like an angel To be able to take this young young adult that was had this dream of doing something that you shouldn't have been able to do But also be a voice of reason and I I see very similar like qualities and character characteristics between them Robbie has been so giving to me and always got behind of what I did and his enjoyment or his Gratification out of it is through me completing it.

My mom was very much in that vein as well It's like how do I allow my son to be free and do the things he wants to do and then celebrate his Achievements if he has any so Yeah, me and my relationship with Robbie is extremely special like I say, I feel like my mom left and he arrived to fill some of that gap and he's Really been a steward of taking me from this Fucked up 23 year old and then guided me through everything even like I said, I didn't have a plan Maybe neither did he?

he's really like held my hand through that entire experience and Allowed me to achieve what I've been able to achieve because honestly without him I would have failed on a great Salon's end there was a time on that where I have ruptured a ligament in my ankle going through this field and I got back into the Wagon and I was like distraught my ankles like the size of a football No one else could tell me anything because they hadn't done anything But I saw this Robbie Ballinger character is this larger-than-life amazing guy who'd run across the u.s.

Recently So what he says has holds a lot of weight for me and he was basically like the schedules too tight Your and you'll you will figure out your ankle will learn how to to move again It's like but you have to get out and do it now and in any other situation with anyone else in the world telling me That I've told him to fuck off and I'd have cancelled it for the day It might have taken me an extra week or I've never done it and I wouldn't be here now.

So That's the the level of impact is out of my life Other than just being a general like Sage and mentor like what are some other pieces of Concrete advice that he's given you concrete advice. Keep you keep this, you know this bright-eyed Occasionally wayward young man. I Helped me on the way on the wayward side as well because they he had a rule when we were going across Australia Which I've always implemented which is always one beer sometimes two never three so there's we're quite it's quite like a pirate operation like we're We're kind of all over the place, but we like to have fun in the the ridiculousness of what we're doing Yeah, you finish the day and you're like I'm gonna have a beer like why not?

Like why does it have to be like just all hardness and suffering like there's a different way to experience this Is this an element of that that? Takes you out of what you're doing and in a lot of society if you've had a tough week at work You go to the pub on a Friday and you have a beer you've done something good. So that Allows us me to like disassociate with what I'm doing and also as like a tight-knit crew We'll like have dinner together and it feels your nervous system.

Yeah, and then I just relax and then yeah take my head out of what I'm doing because it's so extreme and In my life in the way you see it. It's like I have to enjoy things along the way I can't be I'm never gonna be training and doing the same thing for 12 months Like the the athletes I Love from the past and people I can think of like like Dennis Rodman he was country, but he defended like a dog and The coach would let him go to Vegas and do his thing blossom steam wasn't afraid to enjoy his life Exactly.

He was on the far end of that extreme. I think Mary to his detriment But those those kind of athletes I think it's just like people need to be managed differently people have different like kinks and things they need or they're interested in and Yeah I like people that do things their own way like we've said about me being Unapologetic myself like I've I really love like Ben Felton who's been is running on Instagram known him for years He's so dedicated to to running every day and being like a professional Like I just love the way he promotes his stuff and he is himself I feel I feel the realness of someone and I also feel like the the fakeness of Holding things up and I'm gonna go and do all major marathons in a year So I can tick-tock it like who are the other people out there that inspire you in different ways Max is a big one.

Max is great. We spoke about obviously Mark earlier as well. Well, he's doing amazing and also to have seen him Come out on the u.s. And just like this random guy turns off and now he's doing that shit is is incredible Who else is it? Obviously Robbie? True at Hanes. I think he's brilliant. I love he's he's another guy who's Unapologetically exactly and in a cool and interesting way that brings a whole other swath of Person into this exactly running in his jeans and you know the whole deal like yes, it's crazy performance art on some level But it's coming from a genuine place exactly So yeah I like these like movers and shakers that are doing interesting things and I like people that set big lofty goals Even if they even if you don't eventually make it like get out your comfort zone, right?

True it saying like he's gonna he's gonna he wants to qualify for Olympic trials. Yeah Yeah, insane and a lot of people saying that's impossible. You're way too. You have way too much muscle You're way too big like there's a huge like every minute after a certain point becomes Exponentially harder to shave off your marathon time and he is like out of his mind thinking he's gonna be able to improve that much And it's amount of time and we'll see. Yeah, but he's documenting it and he's being transparent about it and he seems like Unaffected by that.

It's just it's it's attention farming on some level But it's an interesting story that I think the average person can understand like oh, I see this guy He looks different than these other guys. He's trying to do this thing I guess that's a hard thing to do and now I'm invested in seeing whether he can do it or not. Yeah Yeah, I like people having a crack But then make it or not and yeah, just go for it And then another another guy who's also like an actual professional is George Mills It's one of the fastest like British and European like 5k and I've sought his counsel quite a lot over the years.

Oh, that's good. So you're getting elite pro counsel from one of the best in the world. Yeah, because also when I was doing London, when I was in Tokyo for quite a while before I did that, which was actually good, because at the start of the year I'd been in Dubai and then Bali and Indonesia, so it was very hot, very humid. And then I got to Japan, I was like, I still need to do some kind of heat training. And he was the one that told me about getting in a 40 degree bath for 20 minutes.

And he was sending me all these photos from like the ones he'd made himself. But yeah, having that, like, Elitist grew up doing track and field, like from a young age, like all that experience he's had now, obviously being great at what he does, like you get different information from someone like that than even like Max doing the heat suit stuff. Max is kind of new to it. Truett's new to it. You could say I'm new to it, even though I've been around for eight, nine years in this game, but that's like the old school, professional running information that I get.

Is there anything else you're doing in training that is counterintuitive or different or experimental? Some of the time I lean into not fueling. Like, Faster training. Killian Jornet, like I remember reading his book, Above the Clouds, is it? And him being like a kid and his mom giving him like 250 milliliters of water to go and run a marathon. So I do a lot of, I do both, because I now understand the need in training your gut to deal with high levels, high volumes of food, et cetera.

So sometimes I'll go out on an empty stomach and try and test the body so I don't need as much, but then I also realize I have to do the opposite and sometimes get into what I'm gonna be doing, like eat a heavy meal and then go out running afterwards. Yeah. The faster training is good to train your body to operate efficiently without a constant fuel input. Yeah. And by doing that, you realize like, you don't have to bring all this stuff with you. You know, if you're going out for a two hour run and you're at a certain level of fitness or whatever, like you can manage it, it's fine.

It will impair how well you recover for the, if you have a big workout the next day, you'll pay for it then, but you'll be able to do that workout. And in this event that you're doing, like you're not gonna be doing any of this. Like you're always, whenever you're eating, you're eating for the next marathon. Yeah. Like you're not eating to complete that marathon. You're always thinking ahead and planning and measuring out your calories for that purpose. But I think it's cool to like experiment with all of these things.

Yeah, I think you should just be. Have you paid attention to what David Roche has done with like on the other end of like fasted training? Like he's trying to see how many grams of carbohydrates he can like digest, because if he can digest more than the average runner or even get it like to this elevated state, he can sustain a threshold pace for much longer and like lay out like insane performances, which he did at Leadville. He's gotten injured, he's had some struggles or whatever.

It's not perfect, but like there is something there also that I think is really interesting. Yeah, there definitely is. And in the professional game, it's really coming through now of how many carbs you can consume in an hour. That and bicarb. Yeah, yeah. Have made a big difference. I've never actually used that, but it is interesting, but I think that's better suited to doing one race. Right. Rather than. And also when you're running a threshold, like when you're like getting into anaerobic zones. Yeah, and I'm running at 10 to 12 minute miles max, where my heart rate happens to be 100.

And you're very controversial low heart rate. Yeah, I don't know if anyone else is gonna run a 12 minute mile, but it's like a fast walk and your heart rate doesn't really get up very high. Yeah. I don't think it's hot, it does, but the heat training will keep it down, I would imagine. Yeah. I think Max's heart rate over the course of Badwater was like 143 or something like that. That's insane. I mean, have you ever tried to run in 120 degree heat? Your heart rate just goes through the roof.

Yeah, I'm terrible at it. That's why I've started doing the heat training because I thought I could just go to a hot country and kind of figure it out, but I couldn't. Yeah. Let's shift gears. I'm curious around your experience with psychedelics because I think this has contributed to how you think about not just your running, but like life and what's important. Obviously, everything I've pushed and promoted about getting over my mom's passing was deeply rooted in destroying my body physically and finding some kind of spiritual help through that world.

But the other thing that I've done on more than a few occasions now is psilocybin. And the first time I did it was before, actually it was, when would that have been? It was after 4830, so probably 2022. There's always been, like I said, I've always been explorative. And around that time, I started hearing things around magic mushrooms and their association with helping people that have gone through trauma, et cetera. So I was always interested in that world and I got a lot of literature, listened to a lot of podcasts about it.

And then the way I do things, which has become quite apparent, is I don't wanna like half go into something. It's like I went straight to heroic. So I did six grams of psilocybin. In a medically-assisted environment? Just on your own, freewheeling it? Yeah, exactly. I've had this, I was out in the countryside. By the way, just for the audience, out of like a sense of responsibility, please do not try this. Yeah, don't do anything. Don't do a single thing that Will does, okay? Clarify, alert the lawyers.

Yes, good idea. But I went through this experience and for me, it was the most transformative thing I've ever been through. Towards the end of the trip, like obviously it was quite psychedelic and things went a bit crazy, but towards the end, I'd made this little camp. So like when you're a kid and you take the sheets off the bed and you start getting things, I also had this starlight that shot up a constellation. So I was laying in this makeshift tent, like looking up at this constellation when the trip was kind of getting to its deepest point.

And originally, all of these stars compiled to make my grandfather's face who was alive at the time. I was like, oh, that's very beautiful. And then they all went to my mom. And when you do a psychedelic experience, it's like you get told information and you feel like it's like you understand it. So you're getting an external voice, but what you're being told is absolutely true. And I felt my mom's presence and spirit within me. I felt very much connected to my dad as well. I felt like I'm born of both of them, which is true, but there was this palpable energy.

There was this feeling that she was within me and has carried me this entire way. And I've had similar experiences at like the depths of going through a run. And then I had this, and I was out in the cosmos, whatever you wanna call it. And one of the most profound feelings I've had, which I try to carry with me in every day now is I got sucked out of whatever world this was. And I was out in the constellations and there was this central consciousness.

It was like this huge brain mass of things. And I could see the world down there and there were just thousands of these double, it was like an airplane's jet stream just shooting down. And the information I got told, and it's one of almost forgiveness or understanding why people maybe do things that don't align with your version of feeling is all these jet streams were the perception or the view, the lens of people's lives. So from front to back, what they've experienced, what they've seen. And I just had this profound sense that people may do messed up things or things you don't agree with, but if you had the same life lens of them, you would have done exactly the same thing.

So there was a lot of weight lifted off of feeling maybe annoyed at people for having differing opinions. It definitely leveled everything out quite a lot. And yeah, that was the first experience and the most profound one that made me feel the main, I wrote down loads of notes, but the main feeling I had, and if I could rate a feeling like number one, I felt reassured. Reassurance, being reassured in anything is like there's a level of comfort to it. So I just had this. It's fine.

Yeah, I had this reassurance that like energy is forever. There's this cosmos out there. We're living in somewhat of a matrix, but my mom's energy, one is within me, which is a beautiful feeling to have. She's here, she's close, but also it lasts forever. It's everywhere I go. When I'm running, I'll always notice like if a bird is like kind of following me and I'll be like, I feel like that's her or a butterfly or whatever. So yeah, it was a profound experience and I've done it at like key moments in my life along the way and had a lot of different lessons from it, but it's definitely shaped how I do things and my comfortability with life and when things go wrong and just being able to.

Let it go. Yeah. What are some of those lessons more specifically? The one great one I had before America was, I was out in Colorado with Robbie and Jason and we were in Jason's cabin, which is in the middle of nowhere. There's no electricity, there's no water, there's a stream out there. You turn up and you have to like chop wood and put it on the fire or whatever. I did a heroic dose with them and we went out walking in the woods and around those two guys, I've got like my idol in Robbie, everything he's done.

And then I've got Jason, this military guy. He's very well-spoken, he's very spiritual. So I put both of these guys on a pedestal, which I don't feel like I'm on. I don't feel like I'm these guys' level. And we're out walking in the snow. It was freezing cold at the time. I think we were, his cabin's at 10,000 feet. We had just gone wandering through the woods. Firstly, we had this moment where we all sat down and we were just looking at this incredible scene as the Colorado mountains are, snow everywhere.

And we were just like, let's all take a moment for ourselves. So close our eyes. And at that moment, I had like demons coming out to kind of grab me, but I wasn't scared. And I was, I leant into it. I was like, show me what you want to show me. Like, if I need to go down this journey or whatever, then do it. So I alleviated some kind of fear of the unknown and they disappeared. But the main thing was on the way back, Robbie and Jason basically let me lead.

And I felt that I had matured to a certain level where I could lead great men. It was like a real transition into feeling like a man or getting to adulthood in a way, because these people I love and respect so much had almost passed the baton on to me and said, you lead us. So that was another one that set me well for like that next transitional phase in life being, I think I was 26 at the time. So getting close towards 30 and feeling like I could stand on my own two feet and lead.

Yeah. What I see is somebody who feels like they hold the right balance in terms of wanting to accomplish something great while also recognizing like the true value of that. Like, it's not that important. You know, like whether you do this or not, you know what I mean? For sure. And somebody who has grown from a person who used running to process grief, but also to punish yourself. Like, this is what I relate to. Like, I'm in this place of recognizing that the history of my relationship with athletics and specifically like swimming and ultra endurance, these are vehicles for self-flagellation.

You know, it's a way of saying, I have to pay penance for breathing air and that tax that I owe, I can pay by like punishing myself in the pool or, you know, on these long training days or what have you. And what happens is that you get some material world success and validation for that. And so you double down on that, but fundamentally the relationship is unhealthy. Like you're sort of in this abusive relationship with yourself and you're extracting performances from it. And it's powering your life and like moving you towards the things that you want in life, right?

So it's confusing. And my healing journey has really been about understanding that it doesn't have to be that way. And through similar experiences that I've had, and then this surgery where I was, it was really just like God or the universe saying, you need to stop, you know? We're forcing you to stop. We're giving you this get out of jail free card. You can't move. The one thing that makes you more uncomfortable than anything is sitting still with yourself and your own thoughts, but there's no escape.

So this is your ultra, like what are you gonna make of it? And by deciding to just embrace that rather than be in the mindset that I would have been otherwise. And I think most people are in of how quickly can I recover and get back to this person I was before saying, if I stop resisting the one thing that I know will benefit me, who is the better person that I can become as a result of this? Like, can I sit still at peace with myself?

Can I be more present in my life? Can I really commit to a true mindfulness and meditation practice such that it will transform my life in the ways that so many of the great mystics have promised that it will? What will become of me? Who can I become as a result of that investment? And this is not something I've done perfectly, by any stretch of the imagination, but I would say that I am able to be that person and I am able to hold all of these things that I do more loosely, the podcast, whatever, like these are not that important.

What's important is. It's your capacity to give and receive love and show up for the people that you care about and to enjoy your life. And as I begin to build my body back and restore some relationship with fitness, it's not about like punishing myself or seeing how hard I can go or what crazy thing I can do. It's about like how can I honor this body that's carried me for 60 years and nourish it through these things that I love that make me feel like me and then share it for the benefit of other people.

And that's something I could not have said like a year ago. Yeah, well, it's been beautiful to see your journey because obviously, I've known you for what, five, six years now. And I know from, because obviously, Finding Ultra is one of the first books I read alongside Dean's book. So I understand from a point where athleticism is my life, it's my career, it's my profession. So I can't imagine what you had to go through of having that side of your life stopped, stopped entirely because there kind of was nothing you could do about it at the time.

And it's been beautiful to like, now you're ripped roll or rich swole. You look amazing, but it's like, I feel like now my experience in conversation with you, you've got part of you back. It's like the whole thing of having something missing. You seem more complete to me, which is a compliment, but also a compliment that you rode out that storm for so many years of not being able to do something that was so important to you, but still giving things out, giving out love, giving out beautiful things and like this platform, who you have on, how you treat people.

So yeah, I'm appreciative of your journey. Yeah, thank you. And I would say that the two psychedelic experiences that I had have contributed to that, but they're not solely responsible for it. I don't want anybody to get the misapprehension that you do this thing and then your life changes. This is on top of so much other work that you have to do in your life through all kinds of therapeutic modalities. And it's really about how you integrate these experiences and translate them into some kind of contrary action that you can build upon.

Yeah, that's not the experience itself. I know plenty of people that do this stuff way too much and they're kind of the same person. And I think that our culture has a way too cavalier relationship with them. And they're sort of considered benign and they're not benign at all. And they're not for everybody. So that's also my disclaimer about all of this stuff. I'm not here to evangelize it or say that anybody should go do this or definitely you should do this. I'm on the same thing as you.

It's just an experience I've done. I would never tell anyone to do anything, to be honest. It's just my experience, some things that have helped me along the way. We're all trying to figure out if there was one-stop shop to fix all of our problems and we'd have figured it out by now. But it's an amalgamation of everything you go through and all the practices you do. What's the one thing that might wake you up in the middle of the night when you're thinking about what you're about to do?

Is there any one aspect of it that you're feeling uncertain about or a little bit wary? Maybe it's like the inviting so many people in. Because a lot of these things have just been like me and a crew out in the middle of nowhere. Whereas this is like major cities. But you're smart to limit it to just the first 5K. But you need a handler to make sure you're not caught up in like, you know. Robbie. Yeah, it's like, come on, you gotta go. But like people could watch at any point they want, but I know how locked in I need to be and focused on this thing.

And that is an external thing we haven't experienced before. But what I would say about it that makes me confident is when I've run across the US or Australia, when people have shown up, it's been out of the blue, like not planned. So I'm kind of caught off guard. Whereas with this one, I feel like- It's regimented. It's regimented. I feel like it's a beautiful opportunity to connect with people. Because there's so many people that message me along the way when I'm doing these things, like asking how they can take part or be a part of it.

And it's a very difficult question to answer. Find my tracker and come and see me if you want. But this is like, I get to involve everyone that wants to be involved anywhere in the state. So it should be close to where you are if you want to come out and do this thing. Sometimes it might be two o'clock in the morning. Sometimes it might be in the middle of the day on a Wednesday. But yeah, I think it's slightly a stress, but how I'm thinking about it is a beautiful opportunity to connect with people, raise more money, hear other stories.

And I feel like it will push me forward to be performing at my peak. It's also gonna build as you go. Yeah, it could be a sign. I remember this happened with the Iron Cowboy when he started, because he opened it up. Like, you want to come, you can come. Nobody was coming. Even though this is, I mean, I still can't get my head around. I mean, it's one thing. Marathons are one thing. Like, Iron Man's 50 states in 50 days. It's so insane. To me, it's still so vastly underappreciated what he accomplished.

But it built along the way. So by the time he was getting near the end, all kinds of people were coming up. And I went for the last day, and it was like a rock concert. So I would expect something similar for you. Because more and more, like the word will get out. The story is gonna get shared. And that's a cool energy. Yeah, it lifts you up a lot. Yeah. So I'm excited. Less of that, less of the slings and arrows this time around. I mean, they'll be around for sure.

But, you know, it's part of it, so whatever. I love you, buddy. I'm so excited to watch this go down. And all things going well, I will see you in New York City for the New York City Marathon. Love you too, brother. Thank you for having me on and another beautiful conversation. I always feel, I've always feel like lifted up or I've learned something about myself by talking to you, which is. I hope so. A big compliment. Glad to hear that. Before we close it down for good, two things.

First, why don't you take us out with a message to the person who is struggling with making a change in their life, who maybe has had fits and starts, but is deflated because for whatever reason, they can't get over the hump and they're not feeling that self-confidence that you seem to have. I would say what you're weighing up is, if you don't do this thing, it's gonna be way worse than if you start. The hardest thing is often starting, but if you look at like a more of a bird's eye view, you're struggling now and you're not doing the right things to get over it.

The only time to start is right now. And you might not recognize that person from before who was scared, angry, self-loathing. The only way to get through it is start now, do hard things and you can reinvent yourself in a beautiful way and you can do anything. So second thing, obviously people can follow along on your Instagram, but what is the website where people can engage in the live tracking, find out where you are so they can join you for the 5K run, contribute to the GoFundMe and stand up to cancer, all the good stuff?

It's gonna be on missionamerica50.org and that will have everything. It's like a HQ website, so live tracker, routes, ways to donate, all the partner information, everything you could think of under one roof. It's a very impressive website and there's been a lot of people working on it, so I'm very grateful to them for that. And for all the people who are lurking on the Let's Run forums and the Redditors out there, if you're still wringing your hands over what Will did in Australia, you can go to fastestknowntime.com where they have verified that you indeed got the FKT for your transcontinental run across Australia and they have it backed up with all these files, verifications, Java files, et cetera.

Yeah, so it's good because they've been- You've been acquitted, basically, in the court of ultra-running controversy. Yeah, the highest court of judgment, FKT. There you go. If you wanna look through it again, be my guest. Right on. And we're gonna have to do a part two to this after you finish this thing because I can't imagine the stories that you're gonna accumulate along the way here. It's gonna be just absolutely insane. Yeah, it's gonna be a good one. Right on. I look forward to then, but I'm also looking forward to every step along the way.

Good, that's the only way you're gonna make it, right? Wind in your sails and enjoy the Odyssey and hopefully you will be Odysseus returning home at some point, victorious. I hope so. We'll see. Yeah, time will tell. Appreciate you, man. Thanks for sharing today. Appreciate you, too. Thank you very much. Love you, brother. Peace.